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From:
Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Subject:
Re: the scary WSB
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
In a message dated 1/31/98 7:50:42 PM Pacific Standard
Time, bonmark@WEBTV.NET
(mark ricard) writes:
>
> First off
if a teenage boy consented for sex with a older man it is not
> wrong.
Homosexual intercourse with teenage boys was common in Greece and
> many of
other parts of the world. If they consent to it's not wrong.
> Secondly
sex with a teenage boy is different than that of a prepubesent
> child. A
young child is totaly nonacceptable. A teenager is
>
physiologicaly ready for sexual intercourse. A young child is not. As
> far as I
know William S. Burroughs only had sex with teenage boys.
> Therfore
he is not a pedophile. Reading this I hope you will see the
> idot is
you,Denny. I hope this was enlightening for you.
I'm stunned...what is the proper response to a post
such as this? When I
called this fool an idiot earlier in the day,
apparently I gave him far too
much credit. He
would have to study many years to BECOME an idiot.
Dennis
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From:
Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject:
Wittgenstein, Derrida, all those guys and the Beats
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I've really been trying to follow all the postmodern
analyses of WSB and
others posted by scholars on this list. And while I do
not wish to piss anyone
off, I'm sure I will by posting this postmodern
version of The Lord's Prayer,
which, while not strictly coded, is certainly an
exercise in language.
What kind of exercise, I'll let others decide.
--Maggie
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
-- --
Our Reification of Patriarchal Authority, who can be
said to inhabit the
positively valorized polarity of the metaphysical
sphere, privileged be thy
signifier. Thy societal structure achieve hegemony,
the enactment of thy
desire be manifested, throughout the axis represented
by the physical-
metaphysical dichotomy. Empower us this day with the
means of material
production, and refuse to enforce sanctions against
our transgressive
subversions of moral perspective, as we refuse to
delegitimize the moral
perspective of the Other. Refer us not to the thetical
term of the dialectics
of desire, but liberate us from the intrinsically
limiting concept of "evil."
For thine is the hegemony, and the dominance, and the
culturally determined
mystification thereof, within the entire continuum of
the Western concept of
linear time. Amyn.
(By Roger Giner-Sorolla)
>From "The Door" magazine, March/April
1996 #146.
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - --
No wonder I dint unnerstand what youse guys wuz tawkin
about.
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From:
Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject:
Re: kicks joy darkness
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Maggie wrote:
> Can
anyone point me in the direction of anymore Beat recordings?
> I've heard of several box sets, including one for
Allen Ginsberg, but
> have yet encountered any in stores. Any help
would be appreciated.
Definitely pick up "Holy Soul Jelly Roll"
(Ginsberg), "The Jack Kerouac
Collection" (all three of his albums released in
the 1950s, with bonus
tracks), and "The Beat Generation" (all
three sets are on the Rhino/Word
Beat label).
There is also a set on Fantasy named something like
"Howls, Raps, Rips, &
Roars" which I haven't heard yet.
Jym
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From:
Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
What makes you such a moral authority, Denny?
I would love to know what
you do for a
living passing off smartass comments like that?
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From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein, Derrida, all those guys
and the Beats
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Much of Burroughs
work is similar to deconstructionism and Wittgenstien.
I don't whetever
he directly influcened by them or by Korbynski(who
himself ripped
off Wittgenstein). I'm going for the latter. WSB was
trying to show
the lanugage controls perception and thinking and/or
cultural values.
It has a touch of mystiscm to it.
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From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: WSB and The Third Mind
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Does anyone know
anything about WSB and Brion Gysin's book The Third
Mind? I know it
talks about the theory of cut-ups.
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From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: WSB and pedophilia?
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Burroughs did
mention having sex with teenage boys(16 year old) in the
Yage Letters. I
think it was in Columbia. It's nothing I would do(to any
man or boy). When
does one become a adult? I not one yet. haha.....
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB and pedophilia?
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Maggie-
Thanks. Now, can
we stop talking about this? Please?
On Sat, 31 Jan
1998, Maggie Dharma wrote:
> In a message
dated 31-Jan-98 7:50:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>
bonmark@WEBTV.NET writes:
>
> <<
First off if a teenage boy consented for sex with a older man it is not
> wrong. Homosexual intercourse with teenage
boys was common in Greece >>
>
> Mark,
>
> This is a
difficult topic to make generalizations about, but I think if some
> are going to
be made, they should be made in favor of childhood, however long
> that lasts,
and also in favor of better, more mature judgment on the part of
> adults.
>
> A lot of
teenaged girls are of legal age, sexually speaking, but they are not
> in full
possession of the maturity required to make decisions about sexual
> consent. As
a result, many are exploited and a whole shitload get pregnant.
> Except for
the pregnant part, the identical is true for teenaged boys.
>
> There are
also a lot of reasons why kids might consent to sex or actually be
> groomed for
sex with older people. Many of those reasons are self-destructive,
> or relate to
low self-esteem or a life-pattern of sexual abuse and/or
>
exploitation.
>
> Your average
teenage kid, if sexually active, is looking for a partner who's
> on the same
level. A child who seeks out an adult for sex is probably not
> really seeking
sex, but to fulfill some horrible prophecy about him or herself
> that was
learned in childhood abusive situations. It's just not natural for
> people of
such vast age differences WHERE THE LEVEL OF MATURITY AND POWER is
> so
inequitable for sex to exist. Nor, in my opinion, is it good.
>
> What I'm
saying is that if two people have sex, there should be completely
> equal
awareness of what is happening. Otherwise, it's not truly
"consenting."
> A person who
hasn't even qualified for a driver's license or is not yet
> considered
mature enough to cast a vote should also not be a candidate for sex
> with someone
significantly older. That's predatory.
>
> Lastly,
adults should know better. Even if a child wanted to have sex, or
> appeared to
want to have sex, a mature, rational adult response would be to
> say,
"I'm flattered, but this is the only time you have to be a kid and it
> will never
come again. I'm not going to take that away from you."
>
> It's
something best judged on a case-by-case basis, of course, but Lolita was
> not for
real; just the fantasy of dirty old men. A child is a child, and there
> is no magic
age when that stops and adulthood begins, even though a rip-
> roaring,
hormone-driven sex drive may also exist. It's much more complicated
> than the
argument you've laid out here, I think.
>
> Speaking
from stolen innocence here,
> Maggie
>
The Absence of
Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
HolySoulJellyRoll
or whatever its called and theres this big-ass CD
Collection called
The Beat Generation.
On Sat, 31 Jan
1998, Maggie Gerrity wrote:
> I just borrowed a friend's copy of
"Kicks Joy Darkness" and am
> totally
mesmerized by it. I'd never heard any recitations of Kerouac's
> work prior
to this, and suffice to say that my blank canvas has been
> sufficiently
colored by this incredible work.
> The body of artists collected on
"KJD" is so diverse, from the lead
> singer of
Aerosmith (?!--about as non-Beat as I could possibly think
> of) to
perennial Beat-influenced artists like Michael Stipe and Patti
> Smith;
though each selection on the album is so vastly different, all
> of them
embody Kerouac's spontaneity and raw emotion.
> I especially like Stipe's version of
"My Gang," Richard Lewis'
>
"America's New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley," and
Ginsberg's
> enthusiastic
full-force recitation of "The Brooklyn Bridge Blues
> (Choruses
1-9).
> For anyone of the list who hasn't heard
"KJD" yet, definitely go out
> and pick up
a copy. It's a great mix of jazz, spoken word, and the
> Beat Spirit.
> Can anyone point me in the direction of
anymore Beat recordings?
> I've heard
of several box sets, including one for Allen Ginsberg, but
> have yet
encountered any in stores. Any help would be appreciated.
> Maggie G.
>
>
>
>
>
> ==
> "In
dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU
YAHOO!?
> Get your
free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
The Absence of
Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: WSB and pedophilia?
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Do not think I am
not creeped by the idea of WSB having sex with teenage
boys. I
am!!! I just want to explore every angle
from a historical and
cultural
viewpoint. I am 18 years old. By law an adult but still a
child.
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 03:56:39 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic
pseudo-language"
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
At 04:27 PM
1/31/98 -0600, cathy wrote:
<snip>
>I thought
burroughs voice sounded nice, so i started paying
>more
attention to what people were saying about him on here.
>MOst of the
conversations, especially the wittgenstein-burroughs
>discussion,
was compleeeettly over my head. But the
>recent discussion
has made sense to me.
>
>I'm smarter
than your average bear, that's for sure, but
>i never went
to grad school, and i resent the people
>who act like
they know 'oh-so-much-more' than other
>people, the
prententious people. They unconciously
>exclude
people like me who want to learn, who want
>to know more,
but can't understand their highly academic >pseudo-language.
I can understand
most concepts,
>having it put
in layperson's terms helps me at
>times.
>
>So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've stated my
>ignorance on
burroughs, i've stated how you have
>to talk to me
in order for me to understand. Anyone
>out there
wanna teach me more about burroughs?????
Ok, I'd like to
say a couple things about the recent
rantings of
people regarding "highly academic pseudo-
language." First of all, this list is supposed to be a
*discussion*
list. That means the "highly
academic
pseudo-language"
(that usually relates directly to one
of the
"beat" authors) is just as acceptable as the
chatline,
non-list related conversations that seem
to dominate most
posts. In regards to your concerns about
not
understanding
these discussions, I never saw one
post from you
asking the authors of those posts for
some kind of
clarification. No, instead we get a
post that
condemns anyone who makes an
"intellectual"
query/hypothesis, and are at fault
for your not
"understanding" the
concepts. The
fact that you are
asking for help and are making
a request that
someone "teach" you more about
Burroughs is
great. It's your choice of approach that
turns me off
(personally), a simple "can someone please
explain this
theory" would suffice, and would be a more
positive/proactive
way to achieve help.
Mike
To: "BEAT-L:
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From: Rinaldo
Rasa <rinaldo@gpnet.it>
Subject: Syd
Barrett.
Cc:
Bcc:
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In-Reply-To:
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References:
EFFERVESCING
ELEPHANT (written when Syd was 16)
An Effervescing
Elephant
with tiny eyes
and great big trunk
once whispered to
the tiny ear
the ear of one
inferior
that by next June
he'd die, oh yeah!
because the tiger
would roam.
The little one
said: 'Oh my goodness I must stay at home!
and every time I
hear a growl
I'll know the
tiger's on the prowl
and I'll be
really safe, you know
the elephant he
told me so.'
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From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic
pseudo-language"
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
In a message
dated 01-Feb-98 12:57:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cake@IONLINE.NET
writes:
<< That
means the "highly academic
pseudo-language" (that usually relates
directly to one
of the "beat" authors) is just as
acceptable as the
chatline, non-list related conversations that
seem
to dominate most posts. In regards to your concerns about not
understanding these discussions, I never saw
one
post from you asking the authors of those
posts for
some kind of clarification. >>
In my opinion,
the so-called academic posts that offer analyses of, for
instance, the
writing of WSB, are so arcane and (sorry) pompous-sounding that
I can't figure
out what point the writer is trying to make. And I'm not
entirely sure, by
any stretch of the imagination, that what the writer IS
saying, if I
COULD understand it, would be an accurate analytical conclusion.
A friend of mine
wrote a dissertation, which I indexed and edited for him. It
was full of big
words like "epistomology" "dialectic" and oblique
references
to Hegel. I
couldn't understand what point he was trying to make. He said, "It
doesn't matter.
With a dissertation, you get 'paid' by the word."
I've never read a
scholarly piece (or a writ of law) that didn't contain twice
the number of
words needed to make a point, and whose words were even remotely
"user-friendly."
Frankly, it's bad writing--VERY bad writing.
Let me underscore
my point with an excerpt from a spoof of postmodernism (same
source for the
Lord's Prayer I posted earlier):
<begin
excerpt>
Perhaps you would
like to join in conversation with your local mandarins of
cultural theory
and all-purpose deep thinking, but you don't know what to say.
Or, when you do
contribute something you consider relevant, even insightful,
you get ignored
or looked at with pity. Here is a quick guide, then, to
speaking and
writing postmodern.
First, you need
to remember that plainly expressed language is out of the
question. It is
too realist, modernist and obvious. Postmodern language
requires that one
uses play, parody and indeterminacy as critical techniques
to point this
out. Often this is quite a difficult requirement, so obscurity
is a
well-acknowledged substitute. For example, let's imagine you want to say
something like,
"We should listen to the views of people outside of Western
society in order
to learn about the cultural biases that affect us". This is
honest but dull.
Take the word "views". Postmodernspeak would change that to
"voices",
or better, "vocalities", or even better, "multivocalities".
Add an
adjective like
"intertextual", and you're covered. "People outside" is
also
too plain. How
about "postcolonial others"? To speak postmodern properly one
must master a
bevy of biases besides the familiar racism, sexism, ageism, etc.
For example,
phallogocentricism (male-centredness combined with rationalistic
forms of binary
logic). Finally "affect us" sounds like plaid pyjamas. Use
more obscure
verbs and phrases, like "mediate our identities". So, the final
statement should
say, "We should listen to the intertextual, multivocalities
of postcolonial
others outside of Western culture in order to learn about the
phallogocentric
biases that mediate our identities". Now you're talking
postmodern!
<end
excerpt>
The author of
this completely hilarious piece is Richard Holmes. He managed to
express wittily
what I have found annoying about "scholarly analyses,"
including
disciples of Derrida and Wittgenstein. Earlier, I'd tried to slog
through a piece
by Lyotard, and I found myself wondering what the hell he was
talking about.
I know I will be
mightily flamed for this, but I'll go on record right now as
saying I don't
wish to suppress your posts at all. They do, by virtue of the
way they're
written, exclude me from understanding them, but as you say, this
is a discussion
list, and they do get discussed by kindred spirits.
I think what
Cathy said in an earlier post, and what I've said in other posts,
is that we ain't
exactly chimps, but neither of us can understand what you're
saying. I will add
that it feels like you don't really WANT people like me to
understand what
you're saying, or you don't care if your words are only
comprehensible to
a few others. Otherwise, you'd write in simpler terms so the
masses could
understand.
It's just my opinion.
My opinion on this is no more or less valuable than
yours, but I
needed to express it--plainly.
Writing from the
point of view of someone who never went to college, but loves
to read--
maggie
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Subject: Message ("Your message dated Sun, 01
Feb 1998 10:48:23...")
To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Your message
dated Sun, 01 Feb 1998 10:48:23 +0100 with subject "Syd
Barrett."
has been successfully distributed to the
BEAT-L list (263
recipients).
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Excerpt from '714'
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Excerpt from
"714", a novel by Jeffrey Scott Holland
Copyright
1997,1998
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
And we're driving
to Renfro Valley in search of truth. Brian is in the
back talking
about necrophilia and Todd is turning up the radio because
Neil Diamond just
came on, "Solitary Man", ain't that it. And I'm poking
more candy into
my face looking for a gas station to yell pull over!
about because I
need some vegetable juice to stave off the demons. I'm
almost out of
Reese's Cups too. I need them cups. "Jeffy needs", I
beseech aloud,
mimicking Lee Marvin in "The Wild One". No one pays
attention. Brian
says necrophilia is the way of the future and I offer
that he's
probably right on and on the cutting edge like Kurtz's snail.
I tell him about
rural cemetaries where they don't dig 'em very deep and
I see his eye
gleam in the rear view mirror reflection, says: "oh yeah?"
I tell him about
Louisiana where they don't even bury 'em cause the
ground's too
swampy and soggy, they put 'em in great vast fucking
concrete
mausoleums. City of the Dead, cool cool joint, mausoleums and
big stone filing
cabinets of corpses everywhere, encrusted with
gargoyles and
gryphons and maybe even the fucking Annunaki, I don't
know, and Marie
Laveau's grave is covered with red X's cause it's a long
standing
tradition to take a piece of the soft red crumbling brick that
litters the paths
and scratch a big X on her grave. For good luck, they
say. I did it in
1984 and almost immediately thereafter I started seeing
the number 714
everywhere. Every store or house number I pass is
suddenly 714. I'm
in the trolley car and 714's whiz by me at every turn,
phone numbers on
signs, license plate numbers, the car stops at a light
and there's a
lamppost right outside, inches away from window, and
someone has
reached out the window at one time and written "714" on it
in pencil. Few
days later I'm in Mississippi and stay in a motel whose
address is 714.
Few more days I'm in Atlanta and my hotel room number is
714, and driving
into town I see a Masonic or Shriners or somesuch
Temple, Lodge
#714. By now I am sweating liquid nitrogen and freaking on
the coincidences,
just like I always tell Junior never to do. Then I
find that the
Diary Of Anne Frank has 714 pages, Joe
Friday's badge
number on
"Dragnet", the serial number of a Quaalude, etc., etc. So it
became my lucky
voodoo number given to me by none other than her Queen
Majesty Marie
Laveau herself, voodoo priestess of New Orleans. I'd
probably win big on
the lottery with it but I don't play the lottery. I
never saw a 714
figure into a horse race but if I did you can be sure
I'd blow the
load. But Manley is still talking about necrophilia and I
egg him on,
encourage him, plant the subtle seeds of hmmmmm in his mind.
Todd stares
silently and resolutely ahead at the road. Some Motown
bullshit comes on
the radio and I pop in one of my homebrew mix tapes,
the sounds of
Barbecue Bob fill the car. Barbecue Bob had a brief
recording career
from 1927-1931, got killed by a voodoo curse, some say.
This voodoo is
all over the place, it's a story old as dirt. There's a
lot of
Appalachian Voodoo going on down here in Renfro Valley, lot of
sightings lately
of occult freaks on parade and I'm all for 'em. "I want
to join these
Appalachian Voodoo cats, they're alright", I opine.
"Yeah,
what's up with that", Brian rhetorically mumbles from the back.
"I think
it'd be the life, being in with the Appalachian Voodoo crowd,
running around
naked in the woods and all that."
"I don't
think they run around naked. Do they run around naked?"
"Hell, you
know, if they don't, they oughta", Todd interjects. "Voodoo,
Appalachian,
Cult, shit, you're supposed to run around naked and stuff,
right?"
"I run
around naked all the time", I said, "I guess I must got religion.
Pull over at this
gas station up here."
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:25:53 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Lord's Prayer & Quasi-intellectual
doubletalk (was :Re:
Wittgenstein)
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Maggie Dharma
wrote:
>
> I've really
been trying to follow all the postmodern analyses of WSB and
> others
posted by scholars on this list.
=== what does
"postmodern" really mean, anyway? I didn't even know there
*was* any
postmodern discussion of WSB going on. If simply using
ten-dollar words
is "postmodern", that means Spiro Agnew must be the
king of
Postmodernism. And yet he's dumber than dog dirt.
> And while I
do not wish to piss anyone
> off, I'm
sure I will by posting this postmodern version of The Lord's Prayer,
> which, while
not strictly coded, is certainly an exercise in language.
=== Problem is,
it's cute but this isn't a version of the Lord's Prayer
at all. It
doesn't say, and doesn't mean, the same thing. "Hegemony" is
*not* a synonym
for "kingdom", and "Empower us this day with the means
of material
production" does *not* mean the same thing as "Give us this
day our daily
bread". Not even close. There is a way, of course, to
render the Lord's
Prayer in needlessly complex words, but this ain't it.
The point is, I
haven't read (or written) any serious literary analysis
on this list yet
that sets my Bullshit Detector alarm off. Close, mighty
close, but not
quite yet. I do think some of these matters are so simple
and
matter-of-fact that they don't need to be analyzed in the first
place, but I
don't think the manner in which the analyzing has been done
is very
blowhardy.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott
Holland - - KY
"playin' the
blues for pennies sure looks better now."
- - Joe Strummer
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 07:40:59 EST
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From: Dennis Cardwell
<DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic
pseudo-language"
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
In a message
dated 2/1/98 1:59:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, IDDHI@AOL.COM
writes:
> In my
opinion, the so-called academic posts that offer analyses of, for
> instance, the writing of WSB, are so arcane
and (sorry) pompous-sounding
> that
> I can't figure out what point the writer is
trying to make. And I'm not
> entirely sure, by any stretch of the
imagination, that what the writer IS
> saying, if I COULD understand it, would be an
accurate analytical
conclusion.
>
>
> A friend of mine wrote a dissertation, which
I indexed and edited for him.
> It
> was full of big words like
"epistomology" "dialectic" and oblique
references
> to Hegel. I couldn't understand what point he
was trying to make. He said,
"
> It
> doesn't matter. With a dissertation, you get
'paid' by the word."
>
> I've never read a scholarly piece (or a writ
of law) that didn't contain
> twice
> the number of words needed to make a point,
and whose words were even
> remotely
> "user-friendly." Frankly, it's bad
writing--VERY bad writing.
>
> Let me underscore my point with an excerpt
from a spoof of postmodernism (
> same
> source for the Lord's Prayer I posted
earlier):
> <begin excerpt>
> Perhaps you would like to join in
conversation with your local mandarins of
> cultural theory and all-purpose deep
thinking, but you don't know what to
> say.
> Or, when you do contribute something you
consider relevant, even
insightful,
> you get ignored or looked at with pity. Here
is a quick guide, then, to
> speaking and writing postmodern.
>
> First, you need to remember that plainly
expressed language is out of the
> question. It is too realist, modernist and
obvious. Postmodern language
> requires that one uses play, parody and
indeterminacy as critical
techniques
> to point this out. Often this is quite a
difficult requirement, so
obscurity
> is a well-acknowledged substitute. For
example, let's imagine you want to
> say
> something like, "We should listen to the
views of people outside of Western
> society in order to learn about the cultural
biases that affect us". This
is
> honest but dull. Take the word
"views". Postmodernspeak would change that
to
> "voices", or better,
"vocalities", or even better, "multivocalities". Add
an
> adjective like "intertextual", and
you're covered. "People outside" is also
> too plain. How about "postcolonial
others"? To speak postmodern properly
one
> must master a bevy of biases besides the
familiar racism, sexism, ageism,
> etc.
>
> For example, phallogocentricism (male-centredness
combined with
>
rationalistic
> forms of binary logic). Finally "affect
us" sounds like plaid pyjamas. Use
> more obscure verbs and phrases, like
"mediate our identities". So, the
final
> statement should say, "We should listen
to the intertextual,
multivocalities
> of postcolonial others outside of Western
culture in order to learn about
> the
> phallogocentric biases that mediate our
identities". Now you're talking
> postmodern!
> <end excerpt>
>
> The author of this completely hilarious piece
is Richard Holmes. He managed
> to
> express wittily what I have found annoying
about "scholarly analyses,"
> including disciples of Derrida and
Wittgenstein. Earlier, I'd tried to slog
> through a piece by Lyotard, and I found
myself wondering what the hell he
> was
> talking about.
>
> I know I will be mightily flamed for this,
but I'll go on record right now
> as
> saying I don't wish to suppress your posts at
all. They do, by virtue of
the
> way they're written, exclude me from
understanding them, but as you say,
> this
> is a discussion list, and they do get
discussed by kindred spirits.
>
> I think what Cathy said in an earlier post,
and what I've said in other
> posts,
> is that we ain't exactly chimps, but neither
of us can understand what you'
> re
> saying. I will add that it feels like you
don't really WANT people like me
> to
> understand what you're saying, or you don't
care if your words are only
> comprehensible to a few others. Otherwise,
you'd write in simpler terms so
> the
> masses could understand.
>
> It's just my opinion. My opinion on this is
no more or less valuable than
> yours, but I needed to express it--plainly.
>
> Writing from the point of view of someone who
never went to college, but
> loves
> to read--
> maggie
>
>
Great post,
Maggie! I've been so exercised about
Mark Ricard's idiocy (until
I found out he
was an 18 year old kid) that I didn't say anything about this
except a back
channel which I will forward to you.
Did you notice
that he started calling me Denny?
Weirded me out pretty
good...He started
that right after I mailed you a brief note about it.
"Paranoia
strikes deep, into your life it will creep."
Dennis
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 08:02:08 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic
pseudo-language"
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
At last, I've
done the thing I deplore in others...didn't check the address
box on my last
post...which was intended for back channel to Maggie Dharma.
Mea culpa.
Dennis
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 08:20:00 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adam Johansen
<adamjohansen@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: kicks joy darkness
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Message text
written by "Maggue G." forwarded by "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List"
>I just
borrowed a friend's copy of "Kicks Joy Darkness" and am
totally
mesmerized by it. I'd never heard any recitations of Kerouac's
work prior to
this, and suffice to say that my blank canvas has been
sufficiently
colored by this incredible work.
The body of artists collected on
"KJD" is so diverse, from the lead
singer of
Aerosmith (?!--about as non-Beat as I could possibly think
of) to perennial
Beat-influenced artists like Michael Stipe and Patti
Smith; though
each selection on the album is so vastly different, all
of them embody
Kerouac's spontaneity and raw emotion.
I especially like Stipe's version of "My
Gang," Richard Lewis'
"America's
New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley," and Ginsberg's
enthusiastic
full-force recitation of "The Brooklyn Bridge Blues
(Choruses 1-9).
For anyone of the list who hasn't heard
"KJD" yet, definitely go out
and pick up a
copy. It's a great mix of jazz, spoken word, and the
Beat Spirit.
Can anyone point me in the direction of
anymore Beat recordings?
I've heard of
several box sets, including one for Allen Ginsberg, but
have yet
encountered any in stores. Any help would be appreciated.
Maggie G.
<
I've been trying
to "pick up a copy@ for a while now... but nowhere has
it in stock. Can
you give me a publisher and catalogue number or something?
Sorry I can't
help with your enquiry.
Adam J.
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:19:38 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sundee Bumgarner
<Surubu1@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
There is a mail
order catalog--the name escapes me now--which specializes in
Beat literature
and other misc. goods. They carry a lot
of hard to find
items, including
spoken word and musical CDs. Try calling
1 800 Kerouac; they
should have some
things you can't find in stores.
Sundee Bumgarner
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:48:51 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "POMES, PENNY EACH."
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sanders Inquiry
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I think sanders
and Kerouac first met when he went with Ted Berrigan to Jack's
house to do the
Paris Review interview.
Dave B.
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:03:21 -0500
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From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lord's Prayer &
Quasi-intellectual doubletalk (was :Re:
Wittgenstein)
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
"Amen"
to that, Jeffrey!
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Sun, 1 Feb
1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
> Maggie
Dharma wrote:
> >
> > I've
really been trying to follow all the postmodern analyses of WSB and
> > others
posted by scholars on this list.
>
> === what
does "postmodern" really mean, anyway? I didn't even know there
> *was* any
postmodern discussion of WSB going on. If simply using
> ten-dollar
words is "postmodern", that means Spiro Agnew must be the
> king of
Postmodernism. And yet he's dumber than dog dirt.
>
>
>
> > And
while I do not wish to piss anyone
> > off,
I'm sure I will by posting this postmodern version of The Lord's
Prayer,
> > which,
while not strictly coded, is certainly an exercise in language.
>
> === Problem
is, it's cute but this isn't a version of the Lord's Prayer
> at all. It
doesn't say, and doesn't mean, the same thing. "Hegemony" is
> *not* a
synonym for "kingdom", and "Empower us this day with the means
> of material
production" does *not* mean the same thing as "Give us this
> day our
daily bread". Not even close. There is a way, of course, to
> render the
Lord's Prayer in needlessly complex words, but this ain't it.
>
> The point
is, I haven't read (or written) any serious literary analysis
> on this list
yet that sets my Bullshit Detector alarm off. Close, mighty
> close, but
not quite yet. I do think some of these matters are so simple
> and
matter-of-fact that they don't need to be analyzed in the first
> place, but I
don't think the manner in which the analyzing has been done
> is very
blowhardy.
>
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Jeffrey
Scott Holland - - KY
>
"playin' the blues for pennies sure looks better now."
> - - Joe
Strummer
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:39:27 EST
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Exciting News
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Dharma Lion is a
first rate biography--particularly good on Ginsberg's early ye
ars.
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:40:58 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic
pseudo-language"
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Such scholarly
posts as those on WSB are really what Beat-l needs more
of. There's been entirely too much useless chit
chat as of late. Let's
keep such
scholarly discussions going.
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:53:32 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sanders, Holmes and Kerouac
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
You are right to
question my connection here. I'm not positive that its
accurate and I
don't have a citation/ source for you. I can't find my notes
from the
beginning of the last year, but I remember reading some letters where
Ed was mentioned.
I think it was him because Kerouac said, "Say hello to Ed
and Miriam,"
and Miriam is Ed's wife. Where did I
read this stuff? Well,
these books
werent' very useful to me, they were old and like I said, Ed was
mentioned so
briefly that I didn't even catalog it in my data files. (That's a
research lesson
in itself.) I'm sorry that I can't provide you with the actual
book. All that i
can remember is that the book was one probably written by the
Knight's--
perhaps one of the twenty-something year old books on the beats and
their legacy. I'm
pretty sure the letters were written between holmes and
Kerouac because I
wrote down that I have to check out Holmes back ground
more-- Check his
bio's for references to Ed and stuff.
I appreciate
everyone's discussion on this subject very much. I'm going to try
and find that WF
Buckley show, I don't know how to look for this kind of
thing, but i
appreciate these tidbits. That show will really help me,
especially if it
is as interesting at someone made it out to be. I know
Sanders can look
and sound like a dork sometimes (we all can) and I'd love to
see this caught
on camera!!!
Thanks for the
address etc. I didn't have his phone number!!! yikes, I doubt
I'll have the
guts to call him ever, but I do plan on writing him a long
letter and
sending him the second rough draft of my bio/crit.
Drea
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ContentFrom
CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!owner-beat-l Mon Feb 2
15:40:21 1998
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:00:17 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Ed Sanders
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Just for the
record, it's Ed Sanders not Ed Saunders.
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:07:42 EST
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: aol.com
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
AOL.COM users
seem to experiencing some technical difficulties this afternoon.
If you get knocked off beat-l, please
re-subscribe.
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X-Sender:
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:10:42 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Zarra <zman1956@BELLATLANTIC.NET>
Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Maggie,
Are there any CD
shops on-line that carrie KJD, I would be very interested in
getting this
collection.
Thanks a whole
lot!
Johnny Z
>> I just borrowed a friend's copy of
"Kicks Joy Darkness" and am
>> totally
mesmerized by it. I'd never heard any recitations of Kerouac's
>> work
prior to this, and suffice to say that my blank canvas has been
>>
sufficiently colored by this incredible work.
>> The body of artists collected on
"KJD" is so diverse, from the lead
>> singer
of Aerosmith (?!--about as non-Beat as I could possibly think
>> of) to
perennial Beat-influenced artists like Michael Stipe and Patti
>> Smith;
though each selection on the album is so vastly different, all
>> of them
embody Kerouac's spontaneity and raw emotion.
>> I especially like Stipe's version of
"My Gang," Richard Lewis'
>>
"America's New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley," and
Ginsberg's
>>
enthusiastic full-force recitation of "The Brooklyn Bridge Blues
>>
(Choruses 1-9).
>> For anyone of the list who hasn't heard
"KJD" yet, definitely go out
>> and pick
up a copy. It's a great mix of jazz, spoken word, and the
>> Beat
Spirit.
>> Can anyone point me in the direction of
anymore Beat recordings?
>> I've
heard of several box sets, including one for Allen Ginsberg, but
>> have yet
encountered any in stores. Any help would be appreciated.
>> Maggie G.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==
>> "In
dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>>
>>
_________________________________________________________
>> DO YOU
YAHOO!?
>> Get your
free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>The Absence
of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
>
<html>
<font
face="Lucian BT" size=3>John J Zarra Jr</font></html>
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:12:47 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Hey all
Just thought i would throw in my two
cents here- Thomas Wolfe was an
amazing author!
And also a key influence on the young JK. But... I dont think
any American
author of his time quite captures the romance of early 20th
Century America
as Wolfe did. He was an enormous man with an enourmous
appetite for living
and life and writing- much as JK was. And like JK- he had
discipline
problems- with his life and his works. So sad- but genius aint
easy- not that i
would know personally! Bummer- but maybe in the next life.
Gene
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:42:49 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I got my copy of
KJD at Borders or Barnes and Noble,one of those chains.
On Sun, 1 Feb
1998, Aeronwy Thomas wrote:
> i bought
kicks joy darkness in sept 97 i think. i think the most thrilling
> part was
hearing jack's voice for the first time. (that was before i
> discovered a
great website with clips of him speaking). i do think that if you
> don't have
it yet, you should get it. the silly pomes (recited by julianna
> hatfield)
are so funny and nice. as for where to get it, i got it through BMG
> music
service when i was still a member. if you try to get it through a store,
> it might
help to know that it's made by Rykodisc. sorry can't offer more help!
>
> aeronwy
>
The Absence of
Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:52:35 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity
<u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I know that CDNOW sells it on-line, but I'm
not sure about any others.
Maggie
---John Zarra
<zman1956@BELLATLANTIC.NET> wrote:
>
> Maggie,
>
> Are there
any CD shops on-line that carrie KJD, I would be very
interested in
> getting this
collection.
>
> Thanks a
whole lot!
> Johnny Z
>
>
>
>> I just borrowed a friend's
copy of "Kicks Joy Darkness" and am
> >>
totally mesmerized by it. I'd never heard any recitations of
Kerouac's
> >>
work prior to this, and suffice to say that my blank canvas has
been
> >> sufficiently
colored by this incredible work.
>
>> The body of artists collected
on "KJD" is so diverse, from the
lead
> >>
singer of Aerosmith (?!--about as non-Beat as I could possibly
think
> >> of)
to perennial Beat-influenced artists like Michael Stipe and
Patti
> >>
Smith; though each selection on the album is so vastly different,
all
> >> of
them embody Kerouac's spontaneity and raw emotion.
>
>> I especially like Stipe's
version of "My Gang," Richard Lewis'
> >>
"America's New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley," and
Ginsberg's
> >>
enthusiastic full-force recitation of "The Brooklyn Bridge Blues
> >>
(Choruses 1-9).
>
>> For anyone of the list who
hasn't heard "KJD" yet, definitely
go out
> >> and
pick up a copy. It's a great mix of jazz, spoken word, and the
> >>
Beat Spirit.
>
>> Can anyone point me in the
direction of anymore Beat recordings?
> >>
I've heard of several box sets, including one for Allen Ginsberg,
but
> >>
have yet encountered any in stores. Any help would be appreciated.
>
>> Maggie G.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==
> >>
"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
> >>
> >>
_________________________________________________________
> >> DO
YOU YAHOO!?
> >> Get
your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >>
> >
> >The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In
Heaven For
> >Sure-JK
> >
> <html>
> <font
face="Lucian BT" size=3>John J Zarra Jr</font></html>
>
==
"In dreams
begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free
@yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path:
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:21:59 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Whose bio of JK
is better, Charter or Nicosia? Ive heard negative things
about Nicosia but
nothing about Charters. This is rhetorical, I know,
but..anyone care
to venture an opinion? Thanks.
The Absence of
Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:26:28 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
For those
interested in obtaining this, try:
info@rykodisc.com
or visit their
website at:
www.rykodisc.com
Maybe Jeffrey at
Water Row may be able to help:
Waterrow@aol.com
or, last but not
least:
Barbara Longo,
who was the Production Coordinator
for this project,
and at one time was a list member -
Barbara?
Hope this is a
help?
Mike
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:30:58 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: some WSB observations
Comments: To:
jholland@ICLUB.ORG
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Jeff:
thank you so much
for the counterpoint, i'd never really thought of
Kerouac's
thinking being a little far-out at times...
I have a whole
queue of books lined up to read after i finish "memory
babe" which
i am almost done with. next in line is
ann rice (as a favor
for a friend)
then comes Vanity of Dulouz. I also have
Douglas
Coupland's
Shampoo Planet to throw in there somewhere, in the meantime
will purchase
probably the WSB Letters book, and get it in line. I
think that book
will probably slide me into his realm a little easier
than trying to
delve right into Naked Lunch.
cathy
>
> Subject:
> Cathy: some WSB observations
> Date:
> Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:27:53 +0100
> From:
> Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
>
>
> Cathy Wilkie
wrote:
>
> > he was
a
> >
freaky-type dude, who thought way-out thoughts.
>
> === it's all
relative, though....back in the day, Kerouac was considered
> a
freaky-type dude who thought way-out thoughts, such as:
>
> " Las
mujeres blancas son la mierda" [white women are shit] I shudder to
> hear it,
whole hordes of Mongolians shall overrun the western world
> saying that
and they're only talking about the poor little blonde woman
> in the
drugstore who's doing her best - By God, if I were Sultan! I
> wouldn't
allow it! I'd arrange for something better! But it's only a
> dream! Why
fret? The world wouldn't exist if it didn't have the power to
> liberate
itself. Suck! Suck! suck at the teat of Heaven! Dog is God
> spelled
backwards." (from "Desolation Angels")
>
> WSB is far
freakier and way-out, of course, but perhaps that's his
> position -
the next zen koan in line to untangle after conquering
> Kerouac.
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm
smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but i never went to
> > grad
school, and i resent the people who act like they know
> >
'oh-so-much-more' than other people, the prententious people.
>
> === I'm
pretty pretentious myself, but it keeps me warm in the winter
> months. But
I agree, I can't stand literary snobs either, especially in
> a field that
was supposed to be confrontational with things literary and
> snobby. I
never went to college, period. (Well, Art school for a week
> but I
dropped out, then enrolled at Eastern Kentucky University and
> dropped out
the first day).
>
>
>
>
> >
So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've
stated my ignorance on
> >
burroughs, i've stated how you have to talk to me in order for me to
> >
understand. Anyone out there wanna teach
me more about burroughs?????
>
> === I think
everyone should read his biography by Ted Morgan, "Literary
> Outlaw",
before reading a word of his own works. If you're already big
> on Kerouac
and Ginsberg, reading "The Letters
of William S.Burroughs,
>
1945-1959" is a good way to slip into the groove - most of the letters
> are to
Ginsberg and many are to Kerouac....."The Yage Letters" also
> includes
some of these letters, with Ginsberg's replies and some
> drawings by
Ginsberg.....
>
>
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Jeffrey
Scott Holland, Kentucky
> "here
we come, all drunk a-gaaaaain..."
> - - Memphis
Jug Band, 1930
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:33:52 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: kerouac and saunders
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
> Subject:
> Re: Sanders Inquiry
> Date:
> Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:14:45 +0000
> From:
> Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
>
>
> Andrea Moore
wrote:
> >
> >
Gallaher wrote:
> >
> >
"Ed Saunders would be a perfect example of
> > the
sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like."
> >
-----------------------
> > can you
elaborate on that? ...<snip>...
> > Drea
>
>
> i dunno that
i agree.. ginsberg was friendly with saunders, who taught
> early on at
naropa. keouac was a little negative
about the next
> generation,
but he thought it was cool when elvis appeared on ed
> sullivan for
the first time, and later said dylan was ok, so i don't
> know that
he'd have disliked ed. i understand the
statement in the
> sense that
saunders could've represented the 'younger generation' which
> always has
it easier than the pioneers of the previous generation, and
> is never
quite as bright or authentic, and i guess kerouac wasn't too
> impressed
with the prankster scene, either, but i think one on one,
> kerouac
would've respected saunders' talent and brains....ah...did they
> ever meet?
weren't they on a
talk-show or debate panel on television together? I
think Kerouac was
drunk as a skunk during this appearance.
Anyone?
cathy
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:04:19 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Nicosia's is the
best by far. Charters has much less info
and a lot of it
seems like it was
gleaned from his novels and applied to his life.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:10:07 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dennis Cardwell
<DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Subject: A Rose for Cathy
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
In a message
dated 2/1/98 12:50:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, Dennis writes:
> << I'm
a junior high English teacher and the way some of these ivy covered
> academicians
spew verbiage offends me. We are not
dolts...we understand
>
English...why can't they write it? They
are communicating in the rarefied
> ether of an
ivory tower far above us mortals. And I
resent the hell out of
> them. They are playing their game by their
rules...I just wish they would
do
> it
privately. >>
>
This was back channel,
now it's a post...where's my asbestos union suit?
Dennis
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:13:03 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Reply to message
from kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU of Sun, 01 Feb
>
>Nicosia's is
the best by far. Charters has much less
info and a lot of it
>seems like it
was gleaned from his novels and applied to his life.
>
>------------------
>Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
>kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
>
>
***I apologize in
advance. Most people would probably say
that this is not
a Beat related
topic & therefore doesn't belong here, but I'm posting it
anyway***
I just finished
reading "Hemingway in Love and War," which deals with his
romance with
Agnes von Kurowsky back in WWI. A big
complaint by the writer
of that book goes
along the same lines of what you mentioned up above with
the Charters
biography--the biographers took incidents from Hemingway's
fiction &
applied it a fact. And we kind of had
this conversation before
in a round-about
way, how do we classify Jack's works, fiction or
non-fiction? Since he does use so many incidents from his
life in his
work...but then
again, I think most writers do. But that
doesn't
necessarily make
it a reliable source of facts.
Diane.
--
"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:52:06 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels
<edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Forgive me, for I have sinned against
Marie,
Pope of the Beat listserv
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
At 03:11 PM
1/31/98 +0000, you wrote:
>mr desautels,
>it is
coming to my awareness that you may have
come to the wrong list.
Has it yet
arrived?
i believe
>the monty
python list would be more appropriate a venue for your one liners:
I think I'm
already there, only it's "The Inquisition." Who's _your_ Pope?
Oh, and I have
some two-liners.
i
>would
recommend either the arguement clinic, or, perhaps more aptly, the
verbal
>abuse
department.
Glass houses can
crash so delightfully, don't you think?
Ed
>sincerely,
>mc
>
>Edward
Desautels wrote:
>
>> Opinions
are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> At 11:58
PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >What
is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?
>>
>conceptualizing, my ass.
>> >
>> >On
Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:
>> >
>> >>
Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see
>> little
value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without
>>
conceptualizing it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile
>>
discussion. To simply state that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece
>> doesn't
go very far toward generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to
>> the next
step, whether it be a personal insight or reflection on some
>> aspect
of the piece or something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the
>> piece
influenced, say, your conception of a poetics. Something.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours
>> handing
out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read
about. :]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
Regards,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
Ed
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv
>> but as
of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality
>> of beat
lit. and
>> >>
>> >>
>speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?
>> >>
>> >>
>i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've
>> beeen
reading ginsberg for years.
>> >>
>> >>
>mc
>> >>
>> >>
>
>> >>
>> >>
>Edward Desautels wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>
>> >>
>> >>
>> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> Ed
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949)
that
>> >>
>> >>
>> >I thought was well worth sharing.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Take my love, it is not true,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >So let it tempt no body new;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Take my lady, she will sigh
>> >>
>> >>
>> >For my bed where'er I lie;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>> >>
>> >>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >To give to some poor poet old;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
>> >>
>> >>
>> >If his age would wear my youth;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>> >>
>> >>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Blow my body out of mind;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Take this heart to go with that
>> >>
>> >>
>> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>> >>
>> >>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Take the art which I bemoan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >In a poem's crazy tone;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >To the starkest stick and stone;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>> >>
>> >>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the
greatest
>> >>
>> >>
>> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
>> >>
>> >>
>> >counterculture.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Maggie G.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >_________________________________________________________
>> >>
>> >>
>> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ôÒ*
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ôÚ0
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ôÚ0
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ôÚ0
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ôÚ0
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ôÚp
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ôÚ¥
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ôÛ
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ôÛ
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ôx8
>> >>
>> >>
>
>> >>
>> >>
<center>************************************************************
>> >>
>> >>
<bigger>Edward Desautels
>> >>
>> >>
7 Hamilton Road
>> >>
>> >>
Somerville, MA 02144
>> >>
>> >>
edesaute@bbnplanet.com
>> >>
>> >>
http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,
>> >>
>> >>
I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
>> >>
>> >>
Jacques Rigaut
>> >>
>> >>
>>
</bigger>************************************************************</center>
>> >>
>> >
>> >The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>>
>Sure-JK
>> >
>
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:53:35 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwy Thomas
<Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
i have read a lot
of the work that ann charters has done on jack and it seems
fine to me. an
especially good place for beginners to start, i think, because
it's
well-researched and easy to read, even though there are a few points i
think i disagreed
with.
aeronwy
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:37:27 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic
pseudo-language"
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Maggie Dharma
wrote:
>
> In my
opinion, the so-called academic posts that offer analyses of, for
> instance,
the writing of WSB, are so arcane and (sorry) pompous-sounding that
> I can't
figure out what point the writer is trying to make. And I'm not
> entirely
sure, by any stretch of the imagination, that what the writer IS
> saying, if I
COULD understand it, would be an accurate analytical conclusion.
>
> I think what
Cathy said in an earlier post, and what I've said in other posts,
> is that we
ain't exactly chimps, but neither of us can understand what you're
> saying. I
will add that it feels like you don't really WANT people like me to
> understand
what you're saying, or you don't care if your words are only
> comprehensible
to a few others. Otherwise, you'd write in simpler terms so the
> masses could
understand.
>
>
> Writing from
the point of view of someone who never went to college, but loves
> to read--
> maggie
1. i completely
agree with you.
2. what the
author was trying to say may not even be clear to the author
himself. i always
thought that the beauty of literature was the fact
that everyone can
give it one'e own meaning and interpretation.
3. i rarely read
philosophy for the reason you mentioned: i have the
feeling that they
don't want me to understand what they are saying. i
may not be the
smartest person alive, but i don't like it when somebody
assumes my
igorance i.e. his/ger superiority.
4. the people who
write in such academic language are sometimes hiding
the fact that
they have nothing to say.
5. i did go to
college. i learned a lot more on my own. as a matter of
fact, as i work
at the university and watch the students at the exams
daily, their
fright, worries, the desire to do well, i am constantly
wondering if it
is worth it; what is it that we've forgotten that is
making us so
frustrated? which brings me to the next point:
6. it seems to me
that the people on the list are becoming nervous and
intolerant. it
shouldn't be so...
my humble
opinion...
ksenija
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 23:38:50 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: some WSB observations
Comments: To:
Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I LOVE Shampoo
PLanet!
On Sun, 1 Feb
1998, Cathy Wilkie wrote:
> Jeff:
>
> thank you so
much for the counterpoint, i'd never really thought of
> Kerouac's
thinking being a little far-out at times...
>
> I have a
whole queue of books lined up to read after i finish "memory
> babe"
which i am almost done with. next in
line is ann rice (as a favor
> for a
friend) then comes Vanity of Dulouz. I
also have Douglas
> Coupland's
Shampoo Planet to throw in there somewhere, in the meantime
> will
purchase probably the WSB Letters book, and get it in line. I
> think that
book will probably slide me into his realm a little easier
> than trying
to delve right into Naked Lunch.
>
>
> cathy
>
>
> >
> >
Subject:
> > Cathy: some WSB observations
> > Date:
> > Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:27:53 +0100
> > From:
> > Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
> >
> >
> > Cathy
Wilkie wrote:
> >
> > > he
was a
> > >
freaky-type dude, who thought way-out thoughts.
> >
> > ===
it's all relative, though....back in the day, Kerouac was considered
> > a
freaky-type dude who thought way-out thoughts, such as:
> >
> > "
Las mujeres blancas son la mierda" [white women are shit] I shudder to
> > hear
it, whole hordes of Mongolians shall overrun the western world
> > saying
that and they're only talking about the poor little blonde woman
> > in the
drugstore who's doing her best - By God, if I were Sultan! I
> >
wouldn't allow it! I'd arrange for something better! But it's only a
> > dream!
Why fret? The world wouldn't exist if it didn't have the power to
> >
liberate itself. Suck! Suck! suck at the teat of Heaven! Dog is God
> > spelled
backwards." (from "Desolation Angels")
> >
> > WSB is
far freakier and way-out, of course, but perhaps that's his
> >
position - the next zen koan in line to untangle after conquering
> >
Kerouac.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
I'm smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but i never went to
> > >
grad school, and i resent the people who act like they know
> > >
'oh-so-much-more' than other people, the prententious people.
> >
> > === I'm
pretty pretentious myself, but it keeps me warm in the winter
> > months.
But I agree, I can't stand literary snobs either, especially in
> > a field
that was supposed to be confrontational with things literary and
> > snobby.
I never went to college, period. (Well, Art school for a week
> > but I
dropped out, then enrolled at Eastern Kentucky University and
> > dropped
out the first day).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've
stated my ignorance on
> > >
burroughs, i've stated how you have to talk to me in order for me to
> > >
understand. Anyone out there wanna teach
me more about burroughs?????
> >
> > === I
think everyone should read his biography by Ted Morgan, "Literary
> >
Outlaw", before reading a word of his own works. If you're already big
> > on
Kerouac and Ginsberg, reading "The
Letters of William S.Burroughs,
> >
1945-1959" is a good way to slip into the groove - most of the letters
> > are to
Ginsberg and many are to Kerouac....."The Yage Letters" also
> >
includes some of these letters, with Ginsberg's replies and some
> >
drawings by Ginsberg.....
> >
> >
> >
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> > Jeffrey
Scott Holland, Kentucky
> >
"here we come, all drunk a-gaaaaain..."
> > - -
Memphis Jug Band, 1930
> >
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
The Absence of
Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
Return-Path:
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 23:41:18 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Its funny that
you should say that because I heard that Charter's bio info
came from the
source itself whereas Nicosia worked from library materials
becuse he had no
access to JK's papers.
On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Alex Howard
wrote:
> Nicosia's is
the best by far. Charters has much less
info and a lot of it
> seems like
it was gleaned from his novels and applied to his life.
>
>
------------------
> Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
>
kh14586@am.appstate.edu
P.O. Box 12149
>
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586
Boone, NC 28608
>
The Absence of
Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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From: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>
Subject: Charters vs Nicosia/Georgian Blue Poetry
Society
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Hey Folks,
Not to contribute
to anymore of the CRAP that's been on the list lately
(mmmm....
pedophilia.... interesting, but somehow not after the 56th
post), however,
did any of the vetrans here urinate on themselves when
they read the
original Charters/Nicosia message?
Sorry, I found
the innocence hystarical.
ANYWAY, do any of
you know anything about the Georgian Blue Poetry
Society? Some guy emailed me about publishing a poem
for a $12 fee and
I'd like to know
if it's remotely legit before I shell over laundry/beer
money to him.
Thanks,
Chris
"All day
long, wearing a hat, that wasn't on my head!"
~Jack Kerouac
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 02:30:32 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Ron Carter/non-beat content
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
For you jazz fans
in NY, I was just perusing the
Sunday Times and
noticed that Ron Carter
will be playing
at the Merkin Concert Hall
on Monday the
8th. As well as the following dates:
02/10-15/98 New
York, NY - Village Vanguard
02/17-22/98 New
York, NY - Iridium Jazz Club
Mike
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
if memory serves
me well, i believe charters did not have access to much info in
the time span in
which she wrote the bio. i do believe that memory babe is a
much
better work. but
i also think of charters as the first to attempt a bio with as
much info as she
could glean.
this may be a
somewhat slanted viewpoint, as i studied with charters and found
her to be warm
and passionate about kerouac the man and kerouac the writer.
mc
Aeronwy Thomas
wrote:
> i have read
a lot of the work that ann charters has done on jack and it seems
> fine to me.
an especially good place for beginners to start, i think, because
> it's
well-researched and easy to read, even though there are a few points i
> think i
disagreed with.
>
> aeronwy
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Visions of Gerard
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Reading _Visions
of Gerard_ I have to wonder if the story told here isn't
really the key to
the sense of despair that inevitably topples Kerouac's
joy of life
described in all of his other books. It
seems that at four
years old, the
question was asked, that was continually asked throughout
Kerouac's adult
life: What is the meaning of life in the face of one's
own
mortality? It also seems to me that his
parents' reactions to
Gerard's death,
more or less set the course for his thinking for the rest
of his life.
There seems to be
three key realizations in Visions of Gerard:
1. "And
there's no doubt in my heart that my mother loves Gerard more
than she loves
me."
No matter what
Jack does for the rest of his life he is competing with
the memory of
Gerard as a symbol of true goodness, and no matter how hard
he tries his
mother will always love Gerard more than him.
2. From Gerard's
own manner of accepting death, Jack senses Gerard is not
afraid of death
and that death is good.
"I don't
remember how Gerard died, but (in my memory, which is limited
and mundane) here
I am running pellmell out of the house about 4 o'clock
in the afternoon
and down the sidewalks of Beaulieu Street yelling to my
father whom I've
seen coming around the corner woeful and slow with
strawhat back and
coat over arms in the summer heat, gleefully yelling
'Gerard est
mort!" (Gerard is dead!) as tho it were some great event that
would make a
change that would make everything better, which it actually
was, which
granted it actually was."
After watching
his parent's reaction to death, there is a sudden and
great change in
his thinking:
"Truth that
cracks open in my head like an oyster, and I see it, the
house disappears
in her Swarm of Snow, Gerard is dead and the soul is
dead and the
world is dead and dead is dead."
3. Kerouac's idealism is linked to his vision of
Gerard, his sense of
self-worth is
linked to Gerard, his writing is linked to Gerard.
"An old
dream too I've had of me glooping, that night, in the parlor, by
Gerard's
coffin. I dont see him in the coffin but
he's there, his ghost,
brown ghost, and
I'm grown sick in my papers (my writing papers, my
bloody 'literary
career' ladies and gentlemen) and the whole reason I
why ever wrote at
all and drew breath to bite in vain with pen of ink,
great gad with
indefensible Usable pencil, because of Gerard, the
idealism, Gerard
the religious hero--'Write in honor of his death'..."
In writing in
honor of Gerard's death, however, Kerouac continually is
brought to the
point where he is posing the question asked in this book:
"Why should
such hearts be made to wince and cringe and groan out life's
breath?--why does
God kill us?" Both Christianity and
Buddhism offer
paths through
these questions, but Kerouac chose this answer:
"We all die?
We're all piles of you-know-what? Liars? Poor? Invalids?
Well then! I
drink! Open the door, belly, gimme another chance. He gets
his other chance,
dances jigs till ten, and sleeps at noon. What he does
at 4 o'clock in
the afternoon is in its poor selfsame essence no
different than
what the mournful ladies with their beads and moving-lips,
in the shadows of
the church, are doing--For, the truth that is
realizable in
dead men's bones ought to be a good enough truth for
everybody,
laughers, cryers, cynics, and hopers included, all--The truth
that is
realizable in dead men's bones, all great gloomy unwilling life
aside, and
setting aside my knighthood to thus say so, exhilirates yea
exterminates all
symbols and bosses and crosses and leaves that quiet
blank--For my
part, the news about truth came of the silence of my
predecessor
diers' graves.
Sicken if you will, this gloomy book's foretold."
Truth is
realizable in dead men's bones is an awesome statement. It also
cuts off the
possibility of truth in living, of finding one's own way
through
suffering, of finding meaning in life regardless of what one
believes happens
at death.
This got too long
and I should have divided it into more than
one post. But I'm hoping some others of you will have
some thoughts
about the ideas
put forth in _Visions of Gerard_ and will break this down
into further
areas of discussion.
DC
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:06:26 +0100
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia/Georgian Blue
Poetry Society
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Chris Dumond
wrote:
> did any of the vetrans here urinate on
themselves when
> they read
the original Charters/Nicosia message?
> Sorry, I
found the innocence hystarical.
=== I don't get
it. Where is the humor? Is this a list only for people
like you and your
"vetrans" (sic) who find innocence "hystarical"
(sic)? I pity your children, if you have any.
I find YOUR
innocence hysterical, since I already went through the stage
where one enjoys
feeling superior to others because one knows more about
Beat than
others..... when I was 15.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott
Holland
K e n t u c k y
livin' on
cinnamon rolls
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:27:24 +0100
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: highly academic pseudo-language
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Cathy Wilkie
wrote:
> I don't think the people that speak the
> "highly
academic pseudo-language" REALIZE they are UNINTENTIONALLY
> BLOCKING
people like me from UNDERSTANDING their concepts. I think they
> talk that
way and think everyone else can automatically understand it.
=== Yes and
no...In most of these instances that I've read, just in this
first week since
I've joined the list, most of this stuff just cannot be
put in simpler
terms....there is no simpler way to say
"self-referential",
"epistemology", "metaphysical", blah blah
blah....even
though some of the stuff that comes across this list may
look like
needlessly verbose horseshit, it isn't. The ideas behind some
of it may be pure
crap, but there's nothing wrong with the way they're
expressing it. No
one can be expected to provide a complete glossary of
terms in each and
every post; but there's nothing stopping anyone from
diving in asking
questions.
However, I *AM*
on your side, because it seems to me that very few here
are actually
trying to communicate with others; their postings are
almost like
they're posting an essay on a bulletin board and walking
away. If there's
something you don't understand, don't be afraid to
stand up and ask,
ask a hundred questions, that's what these lists are
supposed to be
for, they're discussion groups. There will inevitably be
assholes who will
make groaning holier-than-thou comments with an air of
superiority, but
just ignore them. The ones who think they know the most
about Beat only
know trivia, not the heart and soul of the matter.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
J.S.Holland,
Kentucky
looking for my
bottle of cholula
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:54:07 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia/Georgian Blue
Poetry Society
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Chris Dumond
wrote:
> Sorry if you
took offense at that, it was written light-heartedly with a
> touch of
sarcasm.
=== Like Nancy
and others, I missed the light-heartedness, though the
sarcasm was
evident.
> The list has
a strong tendancy to get VERY heated
> over the
Charters/Nicosia issue because a lot of people on the list have
> serious
interests in the issues Nicosia brings up.
As was pointed out,
> Charters has
extensive access to the Kerouac Archives and Nicosia is
> trying to
uncover what some call unethical and illegal practices by the
> Sampas
family (they are the ones who have the rights and possesion of
> Jack's
stuff).
=== I didn't know
this and many others don't. I wish you'd mentioned
this in your
original post; many of us have joined this list only
recently and are
unaware of what has transpired before us.
> Gerry Nicosia is even on the Beat-L.
=== SPROING!!!
Really?? Hello Gerry!
> In short, I
wasn't slamming you or saying that you were ignorant
=== Looking back
at your post, though, surely you can see how it
couldn't be
interpreted any other way to those who didn't know what you
were alluding
to...(which I was ignorant of too); hence I jumped in.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
jeffrey scott
holland
going to richmond
now
to hit the used
bookstores
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:17:17 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Forgive me, for I have sinned against
Marie,
Pope of the Beat listserv
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
forgive ME, bill,
but i couldn't help taking the bait. this is the last of my
public posts to
this insanity.
to mr desautels:
i don't know what
to thank you for, sir:
for the cyber sex change operation or if not
that, your radical feminism in
envisioning a
female
pope, and
therefore my promotion'
mc
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia/Georgian Blue
Poetry Society
Comments: To:
Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Umm..speaking as
the person who wrote the original post, what exactly was
so hysterical
about it? Not everyone on this list knows everything about
everything and I
havent been around as long as the rest of y'all. I'm 18.
Just exactly how
much do you expect me to know about everything concerning
the beats? You're
not making the list very conducive to learning. And if
you are urinating
on yourself, perhaps its time to grab the Depends the
next time you go
to the market.
~Nancy
On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Chris Dumond wrote:
> Hey Folks,
>
> Not to
contribute to anymore of the CRAP that's been on the list lately
> (mmmm....
pedophilia.... interesting, but somehow not after the 56th
> post),
however, did any of the vetrans here urinate on themselves when
> they read
the original Charters/Nicosia message?
> Sorry, I
found the innocence hystarical.
> ANYWAY, do
any of you know anything about the Georgian Blue Poetry
>
Society? Some guy emailed me about
publishing a poem for a $12 fee and
> I'd like to
know if it's remotely legit before I shell over laundry/beer
> money to
him.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> "All
day long, wearing a hat, that wasn't on my head!"
> ~Jack
Kerouac
>
The Absence of
Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:10:53 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Visions of Gerard
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Dear Diane,
Thank you for
your post regarding VISIONS OF GERARD.
It's true that,
ultimately, any understanding of The Duluoz Legend must
begin and end
with the Ghost of Gerard, which is more significant for
interpreting
Kerouac than any notions of modernism, post-war American
fiction,
bohemianism, BEATitude, first-thought-best-thought,
speed-typing or
whatever. Kerouac's life and work must be viewed through
the lens of his
early loss of his older brother.
Some of the
things I ponder through this lens are the following:
- Jack's
relationship with Memere
- Jack's
relationship with Sammy Sampas
- Jack's
relationship with Neal Cassady
- Jack's Buddhism
- Jack's
Catholicism
- Jack's alcoholism
- Jack's sadness
- Jack's
conception of angels
- Jack's
conception of writing as prayer
- Jack's
obsession with death (_I wrote it 'cause we're all gonna die_)
- Jack's death
regards,
John Hasbrouck
...accept loss forever... -JK
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:36:02 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: highly academic pseudo-language
Comments: cc:
cake@IONLINE.NET
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Mike and all:
Okay, once again
I state: I don't think the people that
speak the
"highly
academic pseudo-language" REALIZE they are UNINTENTIONALLY
BLOCKING people
like me from UNDERSTANDING their concepts.
I think they
talk that way and
think everyone else can automatically understand it.
I apologize for
not having asked for clarification before on some of
these
conversations i was referring to, but perhaps that is because in
the past whenever
i was in a situation like this and i did ask for
clarification i
GOT FLAMED for being so stupid, or even some pretentious
comment like
"What about it DON"T you understand?" said in a very snotty
tone of
voice. I didn't realize that you had to
have a certain IQ
quotient to hang
out on the Beat LIst. I thought I was
doing just fine
on here. I"m here to learn from you people. If you deny me that
opportunity just
because i may not understand every word you say, then
you, my friends,
are the shallow ones. Very unbeat. I do appreciate
the "highly
academic psuedo-language" discussions.
I really do. I wish
that i could talk
like that. I shouldn't fear baring my
ignorance to
you people. I should be able to ask for
clarification. YOu're right.
I should be doing
that. I want you to understand that i am
NOT
criticizing the
intellectual elite, it's just that i want them to
understand the
concept that not everyone sees the world in big words
like they do.
And I quote:
"All the way
from Amarillo to Childress, Dean and I pounded plot after
plot of books
we'd read into Stan, who asked for it because he wanted to
know."
--Jack Kerouac
"ON the
road"
point. counterpoint.
Besides that, my
post that you were responding to was a response to
someone else on
why I found WSB 'Scary" and unapproachable. I wansn't
just pulling
these statements out of thin air, suddenly deciding to go
on a rampage on
those who talked intelligently.
thank you for
your time,
cathy
>
>
> Subject:
> Re: the scary WSB/"highly
academic pseudo-language"
> Date:
> Sun, 1 Feb 1998 03:56:39 -0500
> From:
> "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
>
>
> At 04:27 PM
1/31/98 -0600, cathy wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >I
thought burroughs voice sounded nice, so i started paying
> >more
attention to what people were saying about him on here.
> >MOst of
the conversations, especially the wittgenstein-burroughs
> >discussion,
was compleeeettly over my head. But the
> >recent
discussion has made sense to me.
> >
> >I'm
smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but
> >i never
went to grad school, and i resent the people
> >who act
like they know 'oh-so-much-more' than other
> >people,
the prententious people. They
unconciously
> >exclude
people like me who want to learn, who want
> >to know
more, but can't understand their highly academic >pseudo-language.
> I can
understand most concepts,
> >having it
put in layperson's terms helps me at
> >times.
> >
> >So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've stated my
>
>ignorance on burroughs, i've stated how you have
> >to talk
to me in order for me to understand.
Anyone
> >out
there wanna teach me more about burroughs?????
>
> Ok, I'd like
to say a couple things about the recent
> rantings of
people regarding "highly academic pseudo-
>
language." First of all, this list
is supposed to be a
> *discussion*
list. That means the "highly
academic
> pseudo-language"
(that usually relates directly to one
> of the
"beat" authors) is just as acceptable as the
> chatline,
non-list related conversations that seem
> to dominate
most posts. In regards to your concerns
about not
>
understanding these discussions, I never saw one
> post from
you asking the authors of those posts for
> some kind of
clarification. No, instead we get a
> post that
condemns anyone who makes an
>
"intellectual" query/hypothesis, and are at fault
> for your not
"understanding" the
concepts. The
> fact that
you are asking for help and are making
> a request
that someone "teach" you more about
> Burroughs is
great. It's your choice of approach that
> turns me off
(personally), a simple "can someone please
> explain this
theory" would suffice, and would be a more
>
positive/proactive way to achieve help.
>
> Mike
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Its funny
that you should say that because I heard that Charter's bio info
> came from
the source itself whereas Nicosia worked from library materials
> becuse he
had no access to JK's papers.
I can't remember
if his denied access was by estate or by choice. For
some reason I
seem to remember him saying something about wanting to
create the
archive by interviewing the people who actually knew Kerouac.
He spent, what --
12/15 years writing the book? Charters'
is good for
beginners as
Memory Babe is _quite_ a hefty tome. If
you want deep,
complete
biography (as complete as they come, I mean), MB is the one.
There are no
particulay bad bios out. Some are better
than others for
different
reasons. Angel-Headed Hipster and Jack's
Book are quite good
and should be
read by anyone wanting a complete picture of the man, but
they are far from
being as detailed as MB. Depends on what
you want in a
bio and what you
have time to read.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
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From: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia/Georgian Blue
Poetry Society
Comments: To:
Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@is8.nyu.edu>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Hey Nancy,
Sorry if you took
offense at that, it was written light-heartedly with a
touch of
sarcasm. The list has a strong tendancy
to get VERY heated
over the
Charters/Nicosia issue because a lot of people on the list have
serious interests
in the issues Nicosia brings up. As was
pointed out,
Charters has
extensive access to the Kerouac Archives and Nicosia is
trying to uncover
what some call unethical and illegal practices by the
Sampas family
(they are the ones who have the rights and possesion of
Jack's
stuff). Gerry Nicosia is even on the
Beat-L. I can't begin to
explain to you
just how upset people are getting over the issue. I
believe there are
cases currently pending in three different courts.
It's my bet
though, that you'll be getting plenty of information from
sources who are
much better informed as well as involved, than I --
which I suggest
if you're interested.
In short, I
wasn't slamming you or saying that you were ignorant, just
that I found the
irony to be funny given the responses your question
eventually leads
to. Personally, I like Nicosia's better
because it
gave me a better
feel for Jack as a person rather than Jack as he was
seen in the beat
generation.
I wasn't
attacking what you wrote, so next time, if you have that much
of a problem with
it, please backchannel me so that I can clarify things
before you post
to the list -- that way I don't feel like I have to
polute this list
any more with personal nonsense.
Chris
PS I'll make sure to grab a pack on my way home
today.
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:33:44 EST
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Comments: Resent-From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM>
Comments: Originally-From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: highly academic pseudo-language
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Once again,
Beat-l is first and foremost an academic discussion list.
Academic
language, then, is appropriate for discussion.
It's true that
some branches of
contemporary literary criticism have developed their
own jargon and
that those wishing to partake of discussions in these
sub-disciplines
will have to learn the language. Those
not wishing to
do so are free to
delete such messages from Beat-l. In
other words,
just ignore
them. No one on the list, I hope, will
try to reduce his
or her ideas or
simplify his or her vocabulary to cater to some kind of
intellectual
lowest common denominator. That's not
what this list -- or
education in
general-- is all about.
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:36:07 -0800
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From: John Arthur Maynard
<prinzhal@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
At 19:53 2/1/98
EST, you wrote:
>i have read a
lot of the work that ann charters has done on jack and it seems
>fine to me.
an especially good place for beginners to start, i think, because
>it's
well-researched and easy to read, even though there are a few points i
>think i
disagreed with.
>
Personally, I
don't feel any obligation to "choose" (read: take sides)
between
them. I also think Dennis McNally's
Desolate Angel is underappreciated.
OTOH, it might be
well to remember that whoever does a thing first not only
volunteers to
take the most flak, but also grades the road for others.
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:08:58 +0000
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From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Dear Cyan,
Welcome to the
list.
Your idea of
comparing Ginsberg's _America_ to Lincoln's _Gettysburg
Address_ is
marvelous and inspired. I'm not kidding.
When I was 18 I
saw Ginsberg read _America_ and was quite startled. I
thought, jeez!
who IS this guy? I decided to find out. I'd already read
ON THE ROAD but
hadn't yet made the connection. That was 16 years ago.
An excellent
essay you'll want to consult on the _Gettysburg Address_ is
called _Lincoln's
Declaration_, written by Mortimer J. Adler, in his
book, HAVES
WITHOUT HAVE-NOTS.
Keep the list
informed.
-John Hasbrouck
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:53:09 -0500
From:
"L-Soft list server at The City
University of NY (1.8c)"
<LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Message ("Your message dated Mon, 02
Feb 1998 19:44:22...")
To: Rinaldo Rasa
<rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Your message
dated Mon, 02 Feb 1998 19:44:22 +0100 with subject "sliced#1"
has been successfully
distributed to the BEAT-L list (261 recipients).
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:55:35 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Visions of Gerard
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
At 02:58 AM
2/2/98 -0800, Diane Carter wrote:
<snip>
>This got too
long and I should have divided it into
>more than one
post. But I'm hoping some others
>of you will
have some thoughts about the ideas put
>forth in
_Visions of Gerard_ and will break this down
>into further
areas of discussion.
Diane,
If I remember
correctly there is a letter from JK to
Neal Cassady in
_Selected Letters_ that goes into
detail of the
significance of Gerard's death to Jack.
I don't have my
copy on hand so I can't give you a
date or pg
number. I suggest you check this out.
Mike
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Cheyanne C Ritz
wrote:
> I'm even
thinking about comparing it ("America") somehow to Abe Lincoln's
> Gettysburg
Address. Any comments??
=== Fantastic
idea!! I wish Ginsberg were alive to hear about this, he'd
have loved it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott
Holland - Ky.
dangling in the
tournefortia
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:38:50 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Fred Bogin
<FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Organization:
Brooklyn College Library
Subject: reply-to
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Folks--
I think I may
have solved a problem some of you have been having with
replies to your
postings going to you rather than to the list. If you're
using an offline
mail program (Netscape, Eudora, Pegasus, etc.) and
you've set in
your preferences Your Own E-mail Address as an explicit
reply-to address,
your postings to beat-l will have your address as the
reply-to address,
rather than the list's address. To fix this, just
remove your
e-mail address from the reply-to section of your program's
preferences and
the problem should be solved. My two test postings
of a few minutes
ago demonstrated this using Netscape 4.04's mail
program. Let me
know if there are any further problems.
Fred
for beat-l
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Perhaps you
should read both and decide for yourself.
I'm a friend of
Gerry's. I believe his book on JK is superior to Charter's.
Although he
didn't have access to the JK material that John Sampas
believes, and the
law concurs, belongs to him, Nicosia's perssoanal
conversations
with close friends of JK's was a very impotant part of his
work.
Regardless of the
"who's best" I would never offer Charters anything other
than praise for
her Kerouac books, although I think she stood still for
more censorship
by Sampas than she should have.
We're fortunate
to have both.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
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DFrom
CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!owner-beat-l Wed Feb 4
08:19:54 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:13:49 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art
language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Nancy B Brodsky
wrote:
>
> Its funny
that you should say that because I heard that Charter's bio info
> came from
the source itself whereas Nicosia worked from library materials
> becuse he
had no access to JK's papers.
charters met
kerouac, didn't she? Nicosia's archive
is extensive, as
are his footnotes
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:22:08 EST
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From: Cheyanne C Ritz
<CYAN47I@AOL.COM>
Subject: Allen Ginsberg
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Hi, this is my
first post. Just a few comments on this
list - This is the
first one I've
ever been on, and it's great. I always
have mail. And yes, I
think I'm
learning things. I'm 18 and only
recently started reading beat
writers. I saw the movie of Naked Lunch and thought it
neat, but that's as
far as it
went. Now I am devouring the Beat Reader
(not a comment on the
recent arguement
between Charters and
Nicosia) and I
heard of this listserv.
Sorry to bore you
with all that, just thought I should explain any naivete in
my following
posts.
To get to the
point, I am now planning out a research paper on Allen Ginsberg,
specifically the
poem "America". I've found
Dick McBride's Cometh With Clouds
to be a very
interesting source, and of course Dharma Lion.
I'm even thinking
about comparing it ("America") somehow to Abe Lincoln's
Gettysburg
Address. Any comments?? I'd really be interested on any comments
on this
poem. Heck, get a whole discussion
going.
Thanks,
><CYAN><
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:22:19 -0500
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From: cfasull1@IC3.ITHACA.EDU
Subject: "howl" request
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
i was wondering
if anyone out there had in their possession a copy of the
phonograph
recording of "howl and other poems", put out by fantasy-galaxy
records in
1959. i was looking to secure myself an
original copy, and if
nothing else,
maybe i could send a blank tape out for it to be recorded.
any help should
be directed to CFASULL1@IC3.ITHACA.EDU thanks
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:26:01 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Fred Bogin
<FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Test please ignore
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Testing. Please
ignore.
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:26:38 -0800
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From: Fred Bogin
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Subject: Testing 2
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Sorry, one more
test.
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:00:03 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Allen Ginsberg
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
For those of you
who live in the NYC area, Anthology Film Archives will be
screening a film
called "Scenes from Allen's Last Three Days On Earth as a
Spirit". If
you want further info, I can type out the blurb in a later
post.
The Absence of
Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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From: beth
<elizabeth.ann.mekker@DREXEL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Nancy, further
info would be splendid! beth...
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:23:31 -0800
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From: Maggie Gerrity
<u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Beats and the Lost Generation
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I'm preparing to start research for a paper
I'm going to write
comparing the
Beats to the Lost Generation of the 1920's and 30's.
I've seen a lot
of similarities between the two groups: substance
abuse,
disillusionment with America, expatriatism (both literal and
figurative).
I plan to center my argument around a
comparison of _On The Road_ to
Hemingway's _The
Sun Also Rises_ and "Howl" to T.S. Eliot's "The
Wasteland."
Just curious to hear if anyone else has seen
any similarites between
these two
literary groups, probably the two greatest in the history of
American Lit.
Thanks,
maggie g.
==
"In dreams
begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free
@yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:02:36 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
The following was
taken from the Anthology Film Archives program...
Jonas Mekas:
Scenes from Allen's LAst Three Days on Earth as a Spirit
(April 5-7,1997)
67 min
"This is a
video record of the Buddhist Wake Ceremony at Allen Ginsber's
apartment. You
see Allen, now asleep forever, in his bed;some of his close
friends;and the
wrapping up and removal of Allen's body
from his
apartment. You
hear Jonas' description of his last conversation with
Allen, three days
earlier. You see the final farewell at the Buddhist
Temple, 118 West
22nd St, NYC, and some of his close friends: Peter
Orlovsky, Patti
Smith, Gregory Corso, LeRoi Jones/Amiri Baraka. Hiro
Yamagata, Anne
Waldman and many others.
The screening
times are:
Sat, Feb 7, 8pm
Sun, Feb 8, 6 pm
Sat, Feb 21, 8pm
The Archives are
located at 32 Second Ave, NY NY, between 2nd and 3rd
streets, I
believe.
The Absence of Sound,
Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Nancy:
It is to some
degree a matter of taste, but I don't think that there really
is grounds for
comparison of the two. They fill two
different roles. If you
want to know
about JKerouac in detail, clearly you should be read Memory
Babe. If you are interested in a superficial
treatment of JK, then Charters
is the book for
you. I think most people on this list
would state that
Memory Babe is
the best biography of Jack Kerouac. What
has been said on
this list has
nothing to do with the quality of Nicosia's work. Gerry says
that when someone
can have access to his work, plus Jack's pocket notebooks,
then a better
book than Memory Babe will be written.
Of course, that will
depend on whether
or not such a writer is granted free editorial content as
well.
The best way to
find out, is to read them both. I liked
both of them, but
for entirely
different reasons. And, I read Charters
first.
Nancy B Brodsky
wrote:
> Whose bio of
JK is better, Charter or Nicosia? Ive heard negative things
> about
Nicosia but nothing about Charters. This is rhetorical, I know,
> but..anyone
care to venture an opinion? Thanks.
>
> The Absence
of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:25:20 -0800
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From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re:
Charters vs Nicosiau
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
> It is to
some degree a matter of taste, but I don't think that there really
> is grounds
for comparison of the two. They fill two
different roles. If you
> want to know
about JKerouac in detail, clearly you should be read Memory
> Babe. If you are interested in a superficial
treatment of JK, then Charters
> is the book
for you. I think most people on this
list would state that
> Memory Babe
is the best biography of Jack Kerouac.
What has been said on
No offense Bentz
but I don't think this is necessarily true.
I liked
both books but
I'd have to say Charters achieved the same thing with
half as many
words. I found her biography
("Kerouac") incredibly
powerful, and
wouldn't have changed a thing. Bigger
isn't always
better. And brevity is the soul of wit, and all that.
I will concede,
though, that Nicosia's book is the one the serious
Kerouac scholar
will rely on. But that doesn't make it
less
"superficial"
-- anyway I don't think either book was in any
way
superficial. Superficial people don't
tend to become obsessed
with Kerouac --
that's the way I see it.
---------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher =
brooklyn@netcom.com
|
|
|
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
|
|
| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
|
|
| "Nothing
is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |
| -- Joni
Mitchell |
---------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:36:16 -0500
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From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Wait until you
read Ellis Amburn's bio...
"We cannot
well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:02:38 -0700
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
John Arthur Maynard
wrote:
>
> At 19:53
2/1/98 EST, you wrote:
> >i have
read a lot of the work that ann charters has done on jack and it seems
> >fine to
me. an especially good place for beginners to start, i think,
because
> >it's
well-researched and easy to read, even though there are a few points i
> >think i
disagreed with.
> >
> Personally,
I don't feel any obligation to "choose" (read: take sides)
> between
them. I also think Dennis McNally's
Desolate Angel is
underappreciated.
>
> OTOH, it
might be well to remember that whoever does a thing first not only
> volunteers
to take the most flak, but also grades the road for others.
While watching
professional wrestling this evening i decided it was an
appropriate time
to jump into this thread, for it seems almost as if the
listmembership is
interested in something of a "let's get ready to
rumble"
conflict over who is better. Or perhaps
another Ali-Frazier
rematch in post
prime.
I must agree that
the saner voice is presented by John Arthur Maynard in
this post.
It seems to me
that anyone who undertakes a biography of any sort of
Jack Kerouac is
either a fool or deserves a commendation just for the
effort. It is a huge task to undertake the writing of
biographical work
-- knowing that
SOMEONE will discount you if a single detail is in error
-- for any
subject.
The biographical
subject of Jack Kerouac is uniquely difficult, though,
because of two
factors: first, Kerouac was an Excellent writer. If
one is writing a
biography of Michael Jordan the subject's expertise is
not in the medium
the biographer is using. But Kerouac is
even a
difficult subject
among biographies of writers because of the nature of
his writing
subject matter. In his many forms, most
of Kerouac's
writings are in a
fairly clear way autobiographical fiction.
This means
that the
biographer is in competition with the subject right from the
start.
As for the
difference between Charters and Nicosia and McNally and the
others, it seems
that all are useful to the serious fan of Kerouac (i've
not yet read all
of them so hence don't yet qualify as serious).
From
the segmenets
i've read of each it seems that they are all better than
the other for
specific target audiences. It seems
McNally's to be the
best for an
introductory socio-cultural view of Kerouac for the less
than heavy
scholar. Nicosia is the best for the
scholar - hands down.
And Charters
(whose biography should probably be considered as
supplemented by
the selected letters i would think) is a less academic
and more intimate
style. Depending upon the audience or
the mood of the
individual
reader, it seems that one or another biography is best.
Errors in one are
corrected in others and vice versa. It
is probably
the case that the
best biography of any individual is a synthesis of all
the biographies.
DR
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosiau
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Levi Asher wrote:
>
> R. Bentz
Kirby wrote:
> > It is
to some degree a matter of taste, but I don't think that there really
> > is
grounds for comparison of the two. They
fill two different roles. If
you
> > want to
know about JKerouac in detail, clearly you should be read Memory
> >
Babe. If you are interested in a
superficial treatment of JK, then Charters
> > is the
book for you. I think most people on
this list would state that
> > Memory
Babe is the best biography of Jack Kerouac.
What has been said on
>
> No offense
Bentz but I don't think this is necessarily true. I liked
> both books
but I'd have to say Charters achieved the same thing with
> half as many
words. I found her biography
("Kerouac") incredibly
> powerful,
and wouldn't have changed a thing. Bigger
isn't always
> better. And brevity is the soul of wit, and all that.
>
> I will
concede, though, that Nicosia's book is the one the serious
> Kerouac
scholar will rely on. But that doesn't
make it less
>
"superficial" -- anyway I don't think either book was in any
> way
superficial. Superficial people don't
tend to become obsessed
> with Kerouac
-- that's the way I see it.
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------
> | Levi Asher
= brooklyn@netcom.com |
> |
|
> | Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
> | (the beat literature web site) |
> |
|
> | "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
> | (a real book, like on paper) |
> | also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
> |
|
> | *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
> |
|
> |
"Nothing is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |
> | -- Joni
Mitchell |
>
---------------------------------------------------------
intimate seems a
more accurate term than superficial i would think with
regards to the
different styles. i'm all for verbosity
since i suffer
that illness
though too. perhaps which biography
depends on which
personality I or
another reader are wearing (like switching hats) at any
time.
DR
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 07:44:25 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
i would say that
it is not charters vs nicosia, but charters, then nicosia.
charters
bushwhacked the first biography, with many roadblocks, nicosia is more
in depth it's,
true, but i wouldn't call it superficial per se.
mc
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
> Nancy:
>
> It is to
some degree a matter of taste, but I don't think that there really
> is grounds
for comparison of the two. They fill two
different roles. If you
> want to know
about JKerouac in detail, clearly you should be read Memory
> Babe. If you are interested in a superficial
treatment of JK, then Charters
> is the book
for you. I think most people on this
list would state that
> Memory Babe
is the best biography of Jack Kerouac.
What has been said on
> this list
has nothing to do with the quality of Nicosia's work. Gerry says
> that when
someone can have access to his work, plus Jack's pocket notebooks,
> then a
better book than Memory Babe will be written.
Of course, that will
> depend on
whether or not such a writer is granted free editorial content as
> well.
>
> The best way
to find out, is to read them both. I
liked both of them, but
> for entirely
different reasons. And, I read Charters
first.
>
> Nancy B
Brodsky wrote:
>
> > Whose
bio of JK is better, Charter or Nicosia? Ive heard negative things
> > about
Nicosia but nothing about Charters. This is rhetorical, I know,
> >
but..anyone care to venture an opinion? Thanks.
> >
> > The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> > Sure-JK
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Visions of Gerard
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
diane: i too need
to reread before contributing. i'm just hoping oour little
po dunk library
here in montpelier has a copy as i has no cash.
mc
Diane Carter
wrote:
> Reading
_Visions of Gerard_ I have to wonder if the story told here isn't
> really the
key to the sense of despair that inevitably topples Kerouac's
> joy of life
described in all of his other books. It
seems that at four
> years old,
the question was asked, that was continually asked throughout
> Kerouac's
adult life: What is the meaning of life in the face of one's
> own
mortality? It also seems to me that his
parents' reactions to
> Gerard's
death, more or less set the course for his thinking for the rest
> of his life.
>
> There seems
to be three key realizations in Visions of Gerard:
>
> 1. "And
there's no doubt in my heart that my mother loves Gerard more
> than she
loves me."
>
> No matter
what Jack does for the rest of his life he is competing with
> the memory
of Gerard as a symbol of true goodness, and no matter how hard
> he tries his
mother will always love Gerard more than him.
>
> 2. From
Gerard's own manner of accepting death, Jack senses Gerard is not
> afraid of
death and that death is good.
>
> "I
don't remember how Gerard died, but (in my memory, which is limited
> and mundane)
here I am running pellmell out of the house about 4 o'clock
> in the
afternoon and down the sidewalks of Beaulieu Street yelling to my
> father whom
I've seen coming around the corner woeful and slow with
> strawhat
back and coat over arms in the summer heat, gleefully yelling
> 'Gerard est
mort!" (Gerard is dead!) as tho it were some great event that
> would make a
change that would make everything better, which it actually
> was, which
granted it actually was."
>
> After
watching his parent's reaction to death, there is a sudden and
> great change
in his thinking:
>
> "Truth
that cracks open in my head like an oyster, and I see it, the
> house
disappears in her Swarm of Snow, Gerard is dead and the soul is
> dead and the
world is dead and dead is dead."
>
> 3. Kerouac's idealism is linked to his vision of
Gerard, his sense of
> self-worth
is linked to Gerard, his writing is linked to Gerard.
>
> "An old
dream too I've had of me glooping, that night, in the parlor, by
> Gerard's
coffin. I dont see him in the coffin but
he's there, his ghost,
> brown ghost,
and I'm grown sick in my papers (my writing papers, my
> bloody
'literary career' ladies and gentlemen) and the whole reason I
> why ever
wrote at all and drew breath to bite in vain with pen of ink,
> great gad
with indefensible Usable pencil, because of Gerard, the
> idealism,
Gerard the religious hero--'Write in honor of his death'..."
>
> In writing
in honor of Gerard's death, however, Kerouac continually is
> brought to
the point where he is posing the question asked in this book:
> "Why
should such hearts be made to wince and cringe and groan out life's
> breath?--why
does God kill us?" Both
Christianity and Buddhism offer
> paths
through these questions, but Kerouac chose this answer:
>
> "We all
die? We're all piles of you-know-what? Liars? Poor? Invalids?
> Well then! I
drink! Open the door, belly, gimme another chance. He gets
> his other
chance, dances jigs till ten, and sleeps at noon. What he does
> at 4 o'clock
in the afternoon is in its poor selfsame essence no
> different
than what the mournful ladies with their beads and moving-lips,
> in the
shadows of the church, are doing--For, the truth that is
> realizable
in dead men's bones ought to be a good enough truth for
> everybody,
laughers, cryers, cynics, and hopers included, all--The truth
> that is
realizable in dead men's bones, all great gloomy unwilling life
> aside, and
setting aside my knighthood to thus say so, exhilirates yea
> exterminates
all symbols and bosses and crosses and leaves that quiet
> blank--For
my part, the news about truth came of the silence of my
> predecessor
diers' graves.
> Sicken if you will, this gloomy book's
foretold."
>
> Truth is
realizable in dead men's bones is an awesome statement. It also
> cuts off the
possibility of truth in living, of finding one's own way
> through
suffering, of finding meaning in life regardless of what one
> believes
happens at death.
>
> This got too
long and I should have divided it into more than
> one
post. But I'm hoping some others of you
will have some thoughts
> about the
ideas put forth in _Visions of Gerard_ and will break this down
> into further
areas of discussion.
> DC
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:21:49 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Dimock <juancito@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Visions of Gerard
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Diane, beautiful
analysis of "Gerard." One passage I noted with special
interest was when
Gerard and Ti Jean were playing with the kitten. To
Gerard, the way
we treat others, especially those at our mercy, determine
whether we are
deserving of Heaven. This seems to be a theme throughout
the Duluoz
legend, but is sidetracked by the introduction of Cody
(Cassady), who
only to lives for himself. It would seem that the two
approaches to
life are at odds, and the older Kerouac tried to restore
his earlier beliefs
while down playing the self-indulgences of his adult
years.
Seems like I saw
somewhere (Levi's Literary Kicks?) that the death of
Tyke in "Big
Sur" was a metaphor for the earlier death of Gerard. Then
there is the
poor, flea-bitten kitten of Tristessa. Kerouac's kittens
evoke
perseverance in the face of "all life is suffering," and the meek
and beatific,
while perhaps not inheriting the earth, surely will inhabit
Heaven.
Best to all,
Jim
_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:26:25 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: sorry all
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
adrien, could you
email me privately? i lost yr address in the latest
crash and burn of
hard drive.
thanks
mc
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 03:27:30 -0500
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From: Jaroslav Gagan
<GAGAN@DINF.FSV.CVUT.CZ>
Organization:
Stavebni fakulta CVUT, Praha
Subject: Prague Beat Generation Fest 1998
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Dear BEAT-L Colleagues,
this year we
celebrating the BEAT GENERATION as the focal theme
of the 7th
International Book Fair, Prague, Czech Republic
(April, 19-24,
1998).
Programme:
On the (Beat)
Road - exhibition about Czech and American beat generation
incl. secret documentary
why was Allen Ginsberg
expelleed from
Czechoslovakia, 1965.
Nonstop
Ferlinghetti - three days and nights reading poetry
in Church St.Salvator,
Prague.
13th Prague Jazz
Days - contemporary jazz with plays "Unfair
Arguments With
Existence" by L. Ferlighetti
(European premiere)
7th International
Book Fair - incl. exhibit-stand City Lights Bookstore
(replica - 1956)
Seminar about
Beat Generation
Honoured guest: Lawrence
Ferlinghetti
-------------------------------------
The Prague Beat
Generation Fest is for the first time in Czech Republic
and Eastern
Europe. We should like ask all beat friends for assistance
with books,
magazines, photos, films, memories, posters, etc. which can
be exhibit. We
should like invite publishers to Prague and we will give
them 20%
reduction from price. Publishers which print only 1,2,3,...
beat books can
send it us for special exhibit place.
The organizer is
nonprofit, nonpolitical and cultural organization which
was founded in
1971. Many members were arrested by last communism regime
for their
independent cultural activity and many world artists sent protest
to last
Czechoslovak president (for ex. L.Ferlinghetti, E.Albee, K.Vonegut,
J.Updike,
M.Albright, A.Ginsberg, T.Stoppard, A.Miller, J.Morrison,
S.Sontag,
W.Styron, E.L.Doctorow, P.McCartney, Sting, P.Townshend, L.Weber,
J.Baez,
E.Ionesco, W.Marsalis, Y.Menuhin, I.Murdoch, ...)
Karel S r p
Please
write: ARTFORUM - Jazzova sekce
Valdstejnska 14
118 00 Praha 1
Czech Republic (Europe)
or fax: ++420-2-535174
or e-mail: gagan@fsv.cvut.cz
Have a nice day.
JaG
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Ing.Jaroslav
GAGAN Stavebni fakulta CVUT - Katedra
inzenyrske informatiky
166 29 Praha 6, Thakurova 7 tel: ++420-2-24354536
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Bye, Blues Brothers &
Blues Sisters.
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:50:17 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I thought Tom
Clark's Kerouac bio packed a punch, but maybe that's
because I read it
in a day.
-Hasbrouck
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:56:17 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: highly academic pseudo-language
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
David Bruce
Rhaesa wrote:
>
> sometimes it
seems that the distinction drawn that these folks thoughts
> cannot be
translated into everyday presentations of living is precisely
> the reason
that WSB's suggestion that the intellectual is a deviant.
>
> DR
Where does
Burroughs suggest this?
-Hasbrouck
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 03:57:02 EST
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From: John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosiau
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
levi...great
thought..."superficial people don't tend to become obsessed with
Kerouac..." i think that statement says it all. i'm going to say that exact
quote the next
time someone asks me "what's so great about jack kerouac?"
it's almost as
good as "if you can't hear it...you'll never understand it."
JCH
and i'm not even
going to comment on the Charters vs Nicosia "thing"...
i respect both of
them way to much for that. and love both
of the books.
john j dorfner
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 03:06:08 -0700
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Cheyanne C Ritz
wrote:
> Any comments?? I'd really be interested on any comments
> on this
poem. Heck, get a whole discussion
going.
> Thanks,
>
><CYAN><
welcome to Chaos.
DR
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:17:41 +0100
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From: Nils-Xivind Haagensen
<hlinh@POP.STUDENT.UIB.NO>
Subject: to diane carter
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
hi diane,
could you do me a
big favour and mail your "visions of gerard" letter of
february 2nd (or
3rd?) to my adress: nils-oivind.haagensen@lili.uib.no
thank you!
i'd love to
discuss the book with you but want to read it again first, such
a long time since
i read it,
thanks again
nils
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:30:23 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nicolai Pharao
<nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: unsuccesful cut-ups (Maggie).
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
There is no need
to use a "cut-up machine". All you need is text and a pair of
scissors. Not all
of them bring interesting results right away, but I did once
experience making
a very poetic cut-up from romance and suspense short stories
from trashy
magazines, a cut-up that made very little "sense" at the time, but
when I found it
in one of my drawers about 2 years later, it made perfect sense
and was no longer
surprising that it had been written at that time even if I
didn't understand
it then.
Keep trying!
Nic
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Geneaology of Town and the City (was Re:
the scary WSB/"highly
academic pseudo-language"
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Bill Gargan
wrote:
>
> Such scholarly
posts as those on WSB are really what Beat-l needs more
> of. There's been entirely too much useless chit
chat as of late. Let's
> keep such
scholarly discussions going.
Foucault's
writing is as impenetrable as mine (or more so), but i do
find much
interest in the concept of geneaology as applied literally
rather than
merely figuratively to non-family notions.
With Kerouac and
other authors we often find something akin to
geneaologies for
their entire live's writings (or typings).
This seems
much to wide a
swipe.
Beginning with
the publication of Town and the City we can create
several sorts of
geneaologies tracing figuratively into the roots of the
tree and probably
can trace branches of other writers that stem from the
trunk of T&C.
It seems that
several genealogical roots projects are possible. One is
literary
influences. It sounds as though the main
influence in style is
Thomas Wolfe and
so the current thread barely breathing is a
geneaological
thrust in examining Town and the City closely.
In other
words, to
understand the author's point of view and motives as writer
one must come to
the plate with a sense of Wolfe. The
understanding of
Wolfe will have
it's own geneaology etc. etc. etc. (as Yul Brenner
said).
Other threads
might include personal associations.
These would
certainly
influence the writing of T&C. What
other roots are part of
the influence
geneaology?
Moving upward, it
is tempting to only follow the course directed by JK
and examine the synthetic
combination of his collected works. But
an
alternative
geneaological approach is to examine the branches of writing
and influences
directly deriving from the influence of the single book
T&C.
>From the
examinations i've gleaned on various web sites it appears that
there is
"some" information relevant to such an approach, but people who
know much more
about this than I would have to contribute to the
familial literary
search in order for such a geneaological thread to
have
significance.
DR
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Gene Lee wrote:
>
> Hey all
> Just thought i would throw in my two
cents here- Thomas Wolfe was an
> amazing
author! And also a key influence on the young JK. But... I dont think
> any American
author of his time quite captures the romance of early 20th
> Century
America as Wolfe did. He was an enormous man with an enourmous
> appetite for
living and life and writing- much as JK was. And like JK- he had
> discipline
problems- with his life and his works. So sad- but genius aint
> easy- not
that i would know personally! Bummer- but maybe in the next life.
> Gene
I would think
that others were also enormous. What
literary
characteristics
distinguish Wolfe? How do these
characteristics
influence
Kerouac's T&C?
DR
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
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Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: highly academic pseudo-language
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Jeffrey Scott
Holland wrote:
>
> Cathy Wilkie
wrote:
>
> > I don't think the people that speak the
> >
"highly academic pseudo-language" REALIZE they are UNINTENTIONALLY
> >
BLOCKING people like me from UNDERSTANDING their concepts. I think they
> > talk
that way and think everyone else can automatically understand it.
>
> === Yes and
no...In most of these instances that I've read, just in this
> first week
since I've joined the list, most of this stuff just cannot be
> put in
simpler terms....there is no simpler way to say
>
"self-referential", "epistemology",
"metaphysical", blah blah
> blah....even
though some of the stuff that comes across this list may
> look like
needlessly verbose horseshit, it isn't. The ideas behind some
> of it may be
pure crap, but there's nothing wrong with the way they're
> expressing
it. No one can be expected to provide a complete glossary of
> terms in
each and every post; but there's nothing stopping anyone from
> diving in
asking questions.
>
> However, I
*AM* on your side, because it seems to me that very few here
> are actually
trying to communicate with others; their postings are
> almost like
they're posting an essay on a bulletin board and walking
> away. If
there's something you don't understand, don't be afraid to
> stand up and
ask, ask a hundred questions, that's what these lists are
> supposed to
be for, they're discussion groups. There will inevitably be
> assholes who
will make groaning holier-than-thou comments with an air of
> superiority,
but just ignore them. The ones who think they know the most
> about Beat
only know trivia, not the heart and soul of the matter.
>
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> J.S.Holland,
Kentucky
> looking for
my bottle of cholula
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
the way that it
is translated to "the nutshell viewpoint" is by giving
GOOD and SPECIFIC
Examples not only from text but also from everyday
living (fishing
and hunting is how my Aristotle prof expressed
everything).
certainly someone
like Heidegger is more understandable just by knowing
that much of his
writings are the result of his meandering mind while
his body meanders
through the Black Forest -- just as WSB does a bit in
Retreat Diaries.
bringing
"high-brow" ideas into the realm of the everyday can be done.
the people who
coined and penned six billion dollar words were people -
they put on their
pants and shoes just like y'all and I.
sometimes it
seems that the distinction drawn that these folks thoughts
cannot be
translated into everyday presentations of living is precisely
the reason that
WSB's suggestion that the intellectual is a deviant.
DR
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From: Nicolai Pharao
<nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB(Mark)
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
As far as I know
it affected his life deeply. I don't remember what he has said
about loving
Joan, but I once read an interview where he stated that the
shooting of Joan
was what forced him to write. WSB believed to have been
possesed by the
Ugly Spirit and that made him kill her. I think he said
something about
Joan's death and the Ugly Spirit being his motivation for
writing untill
Ginsberg performed and exorcism on him in the 80ies, but am not
sure.
Nic
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From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I think McNally's
and Clark's are better ! P.
"We cannot
well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
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From: Nicolai Pharao
<nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: WSB and The Third Mind
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
last i heard it
was out of print. haven't been able to find it anywhere
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From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Jeffrey Scott
Holland wrote:
>
> What
endeared WSB most to Korzybski's theory of general semantics was
> the way in
which it showed the errors of Aristotelian thinking - the
>
"either/or" simplistic way of thinking that is curiously evident on
this
> list even
now, what with the heated and pointless arguments about
>
"pedophilia bad!" versus "pedophilia good!" and the
Charters vs. Nicosia
> debate. In
short, in addition to Yes/no, right/wrong, good/evil, the
> Universe
contains a MAYBE.....and it is this elemental Maybe that occurs
> most often,
despite humans' efforts to reduce everything to Brand A or
> Brand X,
liberal vs. conservative, Coke vs. Pepsi, or God and the Devil.
>
Mr. Holland,
Which works by
Aristotle delineate this position?
- John Hasbrouck
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
WSB first got
into Korzybski in the 1930's after reading his "Science &
Sanity"; he
attended five of Korzybski's lectures in 1939.
What endeared WSB
most to Korzybski's theory of general semantics was
the way in which
it showed the errors of Aristotelian thinking - the
"either/or"
simplistic way of thinking that is curiously evident on this
list even now,
what with the heated and pointless arguments about
"pedophilia
bad!" versus "pedophilia good!" and the Charters vs. Nicosia
debate. In short,
in addition to Yes/no, right/wrong, good/evil, the
Universe contains
a MAYBE.....and it is this elemental Maybe that occurs
most often,
despite humans' efforts to reduce everything to Brand A or
Brand X, liberal
vs. conservative, Coke vs. Pepsi, or God and the Devil.
To Korzybski, a
printed or spoken word was emphatically not the thing it
represented, and
WSB jumped on this concept and ran with it, eager to
bring about the
desconstruction, if not the destruction, of language.
This may seem
simplistic, but there really is a problem with how words
build up like
cholesterol in our subconcious with preconceptions about
all things, and
limit our ability to think in non-linear terms. Anyone
who is truly
fluent in a second language unconsciously understands this.
This doesn't even
begin to cover it all, but it's the basics.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott
Holland - Kentucky
the vampire who
loved garlic
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:26:35 +0000
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From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski connection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Jeffrey Scott
Holland wrote:
>
> Jeffrey
Scott Holland wrote:
> > >
> > >
What endeared WSB most to Korzybski's theory of general semantics was
> > >
the way in which it showed the errors of Aristotelian thinking - the
> > >
"either/or" simplistic way of thinking that is curiously evident on
this
<snip>
> and then
John Hasbrouck asked:
>
> > Mr.
Holland,
> >
> > Which
works by Aristotle delineate this position?
>
> and now JSH
replies:
>
> === which
position? the "either/or" way of looking at things is basic
> fundamental
Aristotelian logic, look it up.
Korzybski proposed that
> things are
more dimensional than that, and that rather than look at
> things in
Aristotle's either/or logic, we should be using more concepts
> like
"maybe", "sometimes", and "sort-of". Korzybski
decried what he saw
> as flaws in
Aristotlian logic's adherence to the yes/no duality. As I
> already
stated above.
>
Mr. Holland,
I am refering to
the position you ascribe to Aristotle. I will be happy
to look it up if
only you will only tell me whence I might do so. From
your posts I
assume that you've read Aristotle as well as Korzybski. Is
my assumption
correct?
- John Hasbrouck
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski connection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Jeffrey Scott
Holland wrote:
> >
> > What
endeared WSB most to Korzybski's theory of general semantics was
> > the way
in which it showed the errors of Aristotelian thinking - the
> >
"either/or" simplistic way of thinking that is curiously evident on
this
> > list
even now, what with the heated and pointless arguments about
> >
"pedophilia bad!" versus "pedophilia good!" and the Charters
vs. Nicosia
> > debate.
In short, in addition to Yes/no, right/wrong, good/evil, the
> >
Universe contains a MAYBE.....and it is this elemental Maybe that occurs
> > most
often, despite humans' efforts to reduce everything to Brand A or
> > Brand
X, liberal vs. conservative, Coke vs. Pepsi, or God and the Devil.
and then John
Hasbrouck asked:
> Mr. Holland,
>
> Which works
by Aristotle delineate this position?
and now JSH
replies:
=== which
position? the "either/or" way of looking at things is basic
fundamental
Aristotelian logic, look it up.
Korzybski proposed that
things are more
dimensional than that, and that rather than look at
things in
Aristotle's either/or logic, we should be using more concepts
like
"maybe", "sometimes", and "sort-of". Korzybski
decried what he saw
as flaws in
Aristotlian logic's adherence to the yes/no duality. As I
already stated
above.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott
Holland - Ky
high on ice cream
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Brinkley's Kerouac bio
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Richard Wallner
wrote:
>
> Both are
good books...but the best Kerouac bio is yet to come. Neither
> Nicosia or
Charters had access to all of Kerouac's journals and papers.
> Douglas
Brinkley has been chosen by the Sampas family to write the
>
"authorized" biography, the first written with full access to the
> papers. Im sure Brinkley willdo a terrific job,
provided Sampas doesnt
> try to edit
it as he did the letters.
=== I wish
Brinkley would find a way to surreptitiously photocopy
everything and
then leak it to the world.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
ky
Jeffrey
Scott
Holland
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
still eatin' ice cream
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From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski connection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Jeffrey Scott
Holland wrote:
>
> It may well
be that Aristotle may have been a deeper guy than these
> Non-Aristotelian
upstarts give him credit for, and that all these
> people's
references to his shortcomings are gross oversimplifications on
> THEIR part,
and that Aristotle is simply getting a bad rep from writers
> and
researchers who are overly eager to trash anything traditional. But
> I doubt it.
>
I think we can
agree to disagree on this point.
Thank you for
your response.
John Hasbrouck
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:03:55 +0000
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From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Korzybski and Aristotle
Comments: To:
Sean Young <Sean.Young@DSW.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Sean,
Thanks for
posting the Korzybski passage.
It provided
much-needed clarification.
I now withdraw
from this thread.
John Hasbrouck
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: WSB-Huncke connection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Nancy B Brodsky
wrote:
>
> Did you know
that Herbert Huncke gave WSB his very first shot? I found
> that out
today, from the Huncke Reader I told y'all about.
=== Huncke is not
world reknowned for his honesty.....according to Ted
Morgan, WSB was
selling and using Junk when the two met for the first
time. WSB offered
to sell some Junk and some guns to Huncke and another
guy, that's how
they met. I don't know who's right and who's wrong, of
course - I wasn't
there, obviously - but I tend to believe WSB & Morgan
over Huncke.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott
Holland - ky
listening to
distant sirens
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Leon Tabory
wrote:
> For example
I haven't seen anyone suggest that pedophilia may be good.
=== Well, I think
that's what it amounts to, when someone tries to
rationalize that
sex with young teens is not pedophilia, and that it's
'very common in
other countries'. But puh-leeeeze, let's bury the
pedothread. I'm
sorry I brought it up again.
> and even if
I like Korzybski's ideas, general
> semantics
etc., I still will consider some things good and some things bad.
=== so do I, and
so did Korzybski, I'm sure, but the trick is keep
perspective that
even so, these are only our opinions and not empirical
facts.
>
> Ditto for
the biography preferences questions. The questions raised and
> explanations
of preferences given were quite interesting and valid to me. I
> didsn't see
any either/or dichotomies there.
=== The whole
name of the thread, "Charters vs. Nicosia", virtually
screams it from
the rooftop. There is no need to look at the two in
"vs."
terms, they're both fine books. The real argument is not with the
books anyway but
the politicking and goings-on with the Kerouac estate
and Sampas.
> Excuse me, I
am fluent in more than two languages and I believe you are
> basically wrong
about your conclusions regarding the posts that you saw
=== My reference
to being multi-lingual had absolutely nothing to do
with those posts,
I was talking about something else by that point. I
was referring to
the heightened sense of awareness one gains regarding
language when one
is multi-lingual.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
J.S.Holland, ky
getting really
tired of saying
everything twice
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein, Derrida, all those guys
and the Beats
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Much of
Burroughs work is similar to deconstructionism and Wittgenstien.
>I don't
whetever he directly influcened by them or by Korbynski(who
>himself
ripped off Wittgenstein). I'm going for the latter.
According to all
the bios Burroughs was really into Korbynski and something
called general
Semantics.
I only know the
name from Kerouac and Burroughs bios; Count Alfred
Korbynski as I
recall.
>in his WSB
was
>trying to
show the lanugage controls perception and thinking and/or
>cultural
values. It has a touch of mystiscm to it.
I think this
would be an understatement, the touch of mysticism.
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski connection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
John Hasbrouck
wrote:
> Mr. Holland,
>
> I am
refering to the position you ascribe to Aristotle. I will be happy
> to look it
up if only you will only tell me whence I might do so. From
> your posts I
assume that you've read Aristotle as well as Korzybski. Is
> my
assumption correct?
=== I haven't
read Aristotle since high school and hope not to read him
again in this
lifetime. However, I have read plenty of diverse sources
over the years
that also refer to the linear, simplistic nature of his
logic, as
compared to, say, Hegel or more importantly, Quantum Physics.
Korzybski is the
one who said the traditional and classical logic of
Aristotle is
incomplete, not me, though in principle I embrace the idea
myself.
One need not have
read Aristotle to have read about Aristotelian logic
and know what it
is, just as I have never read Sir Isaac Newton, but
have an
understanding of gravity - a better one, in fact, than if I had
read only Newton.
It may well be
that Aristotle may have been a deeper guy than these
Non-Aristotelian
upstarts give him credit for, and that all these
people's
references to his shortcomings are gross oversimplifications on
THEIR part, and
that Aristotle is simply getting a bad rep from writers
and researchers
who are overly eager to trash anything traditional. But
I doubt it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
J.S. Holland, ky
spice o' mac
vauti
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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From: "James F. Wood 253-7886"
<WOODJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU>
Subject: Cut ups
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Would like to
hear more about the cup ups, this is like a collage?
Thanks
Jim
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein, Derrida, all those guys
and the Beats
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
At 08:47 AM
2/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
>According to
all the bios Burroughs was really into
>Korbynski and
something called general Semantics.
Alfred Korzybski
was a linguist and he started the approach
of general
semantics. It focuses on how people evaluate
words and how
that evalution influences their behaviour.
Hope that is a
help?
Mike
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Yes, Nancy,
please send us full information including date, time, and address.
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:52:29 +0000
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From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art
language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: WSB-Huncke connection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Jeffrey Scott
Holland wrote:
>
> Nancy B
Brodsky wrote:
> >
> > Did you
know that Herbert Huncke gave WSB his very first shot? ...<snip>...
> === Huncke
is not world reknowned for his honesty.....according to Ted
> Morgan, WSB
was selling and using Junk when the two met for the first
> time. WSB
offered to sell some Junk and some guns to Huncke and another
> guy, that's
how they met....<snip>
its been more
than 20 years since i read junkie, but doesn't burroughs
say there that he
took his first shot at that time? that
hunkie showed
him how to use
the morphene syretts without needles....i think....
tkc
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Leon Tabory
wrote:
>
> Since you
are sparing no words in enlightening us about deficient
>
epistomologies and linguistic philosophies
=== uh, hello, I
have NO idea what you are talking about. I was only
reporting what I
knew of Korzybski's beliefs, not making any
"enlightening"
proclamations of my own.
> Another
question for you: Got any ideas at what age sexual activities
> commonly
start today?
=== As I already
indicated, I lost my virginity at 12. But the relevance
of your question
escapes me.
> It is not
about pedophilia, it is about your
> glib
cricicisms of our "simpleminded" posts.
=== Who is
"our"? I never called your posts or anyone else's posts
simpleminded. But
maybe it's time I started.
"Glib",
huh? Nixon called Kennedy glib.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
J.S Holland, ky
wishing Ginsberg
were
here to go
"OMMMMMMMMM"
for us all
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art
language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Richard Wallner
wrote:
...snip...
Douglas Brinkley has been chosen by the Sampas family to
write the
>
"authorized" biography,...snip....
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:46:35 +0100
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Korzybski and Aristotle
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Korzybki, by way
of Sean Young, wrote:
> "I wish to emphasize here that in
discussing the inadequacy of the
> Aristotelian system in 1950, I in no way
disparage the remarkable and
> unprecedented work of Aristotle about 350
B.C.
=== Thanks for
posting this, Sean, I was too lazy to go looking for
relevant quotes
myself.
This will
hopefully appease the people who mistankenly think I am
claiming that
Korzybski was Aristotle-bashing. I myself am certainly
appeased, since
Korzybski uses the word "inadequacy" to describe the
Aristotelian
system. "Inadequacy" probably should have been the word I
originally used
in my first post, rather than "errors" but that word
came from WSB and
besides, it's all semantics anyway ;)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==
Jeffrey Holland -
kentucky
deep in the heart
of darkest America
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Hey
I never bothered to disect Wolfe when I
read him- I just enjoyed the
power of his
words. As i haven't read T&C due to an inability to find a copy
and it being the
only book of JK's I haven't read- i am not gonna do a
comparison. I do
know that JK always spoke of Wolfe as being a huge influence
on him.
GT
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From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I posted this
info yesterday. Perhaps, for those of you that didnt catch
it, someone can
fwd it you. I dont feel like writing the whole thing out
again. But the
first show is this sunday at anthology archives on 2nd St.
On Tue, 3 Feb
1998, Bill Gargan wrote:
> Yes, Nancy,
please send us full information including date, time, and address.
>
The Absence of
Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: WSB-Huncke connection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Did you know that
Herbert Huncke gave WSB his very first shot? I found
that out today,
from the Huncke Reader I told y'all about.
The Absence of
Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
-----Original
Message-----
From: Jeffrey
Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tuesday,
February 03, 1998 10:19 AM
Subject: the
WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
<<SNIP>>
the
>"either/or"
simplistic way of thinking that is curiously evident on this
>list even
now, what with the heated and pointless arguments about
>"pedophilia
bad!" versus "pedophilia good!" and the Charters vs. Nicosia
>debate. In
short, in addition to Yes/no, right/wrong, good/evil, the
>Universe
contains a MAYBE.....
I have more of a
problem with the intimidatingly skillful slinging of
masterfully
constructed words than with the "simplistic" thinking lately on
the list.
For example I
haven't seen anyone suggest that pedophilia may be good. There
were some
questions raised when a person may be considered grown up enough.
Good question.
Good considerations. Even if I do not divide everything
between good and
bad, and even if I like Korzybski's ideas, general
semantics etc., I
still will consider some things good and some things bad.
Ditto for the
biography preferences questions. The questions raised and
explanations of
preferences given were quite interesting and valid to me. I
didsn't see any
either/or dichotomies there.
<<SNIP>>
Anyone
>who is truly
fluent in a second language unconsciously understands this.
>>This
doesn't even begin to cover it all, but it's the basics.
>
Excuse me, I am
fluent in more than two languages and I believe you are
basically wrong
about your conclusions regarding the posts that you saw,
even if you might
understand Korzybski's theories perfectly well.
leon
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Jeffrey Scott
Holland - Kentucky
>the vampire
who loved garlic
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:32:35 -0600
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From: vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
In the early 80's
I saw an unpublished booklet about 70 pages in length.
It was titled
Marginalia to Kerouac. They were Ginsbergs personal notes
on the
corrections to errors in Charter's book. This booklet may still
be in Naropa
Institute's library or archives. I believe it was written
after Charter's
book was published. I would like to know if Ann ever
corrected the
errors.
For the sake of
scholarship some researchers should know this existed.
It was 8 1/2 by
11 and bound at Kinkos with a protective report cover.
BTW: Both Nicosia
and Charters books have merit, I've enjoyed and
recommend them
both.
Thanks, Steve
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia
Comments: To:
vorys <vorys@concentric.net>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Both are good
books...but the best Kerouac bio is yet to come. Neither
Nicosia or
Charters had access to all of Kerouac's journals and papers.
Douglas Brinkley
has been chosen by the Sampas family to write the
"authorized"
biography, the first written with full access to the
papers. Im sure Brinkley willdo a terrific job,
provided Sampas doesnt
try to edit it as
he did the letters.
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Will brinkley
write this. yesterday Paul Mahr wrote
"Wait until
you read Ellis Amburn's bio..."
Paul, are both
Brinkley and Amburn writing a biography or just one of them?
At 04:47 PM
2/3/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Richard
Wallner wrote:
>>
>> Both are
good books...but the best Kerouac bio is yet to come. Neither
>> Nicosia
or Charters had access to all of Kerouac's journals and papers.
>> Douglas
Brinkley has been chosen by the Sampas family to write the
>>
"authorized" biography, the first written with full access to the
>>
papers. Im sure Brinkley willdo a
terrific job, provided Sampas doesnt
>> try to
edit it as he did the letters.
>
>
>
>=== I wish
Brinkley would find a way to surreptitiously photocopy
>everything
and then leak it to the world.
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
ky
>Jeffrey
> Scott
> Holland
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
still eatin' ice cream
>
>
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From: Sean Young <Sean.Young@DSW.COM>
Subject: Korzybski and Aristotle
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
here's Korzyski on Aristotle.
Peace,
Sean
---------------------------------------------------
"I wish to emphasize here that in
discussing the inadequacy of the
Aristotelian system in 1950, I in no way
disparage the remarkable and
unprecedented work of Aristotle about 350
B.C. I acknowledge
explicitly my profound admiration for his
extraordinary genius,
particularly in consideration of the
period in which he lived.
Nevertheless, the twisting of his system
and the imposed immobility of
this twisted system, as enforced for
nearly two thousand
years by the controlling groups, often
under threats of torture and
death, have led and can only lead to more
disasters. From what we know
about Aristotle and his writings, there is
little doubt that, if
alive, he would not tolerate such
twistings and artificial immobility
of the system usually ascribed to
him."
Premises of non-Aristotelian thought
(General Semantics)
"1.A map is not the territory.
(Words are not the things they
represent.)
2.A map covers not all the territory.
(Words cannot cover all they
represent.)
3.A map is self-reflexive. (In
language we can speak about
language.)"
------- Alfred Korzybski, "The role
of language in the perceptual
process.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Permission is hereby granted to share
electronic and hard copy
versions of this text with individuals
under circumstances in which no
direct payment is made by those to whom
the text is given for the text
itself, the volume or other medium or
online service in which it is
included, tuition or other payment for the
course or seminar, and so
forth. This notice must remain a part of
the text. Any other use is
reserved to the Institute of General
Semantics and/or the author and
requires prior permission. For further
information, e-mail the
Institute or write: The Institute of
General Semantics, 163 Engle
Street, #4B, Englewood, NJ 07631, USA.
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Jeff Taylor
wrote:
>
> Isn't there
just an obvious contradiction here? K (and WSB following
> him) insists
that either/or logic is a basic error, but then in
> practically
the same breath, they themselves insist on an either/or
> distinction:
EITHER the word OR the thing.
=== *Do* they
insist on a word/thing dichotomy? I hadn't thought of it
in that way. To
say that "a thing and a word are not the same" is not
the same
statement as "If it's not a thing, it must be a word". I assume
K and WSB both
would have said that K's principles of semantics also
applies to
itself, and that the idea can never be 100% perfectly stated,
only approached.
> A further
irony is that this particular distinction is not even
> generally
valid: while the word "table" is not itself a table, the
> word
"word" *is* itself a word. So sometimes the word *can* be the
> thing it
represents.
=== This is the
rabbit-hole that WSB fell through, and went half insane
in the process,
asking "what ARE words, really, anyway?". Your example
is only true as
far as the Dictionary definition of a word goes, but
doesn't cover the
unconscious (or not so unconscious) way we think of
words and carry
them in our heads..as thoughtforms, or memes, sort
of....this is
what WSB is getting at when he calls language a virus. We
all know what
words mean generally, and if we don't we can just look
them up, but the
point K was making is that the definition of a word
cannot be fully
described - because to crystallize a thought into a word
automatically
reduces it, codifies it like turning a rich analog signal
into choppy
simple digital, makes it not the same thing.
>
> It seems to
me that either/or logic, must, at at least some level, be
> correct.
=== either/or is
certainly a necessary step in logical deduction, I
don't think
anyone would dispute that. I interpret K as saying that it
can and should go
further, however, to a higher level. Either/or
thinking is two
dimensional, two directions; I think K was reaching for
three-dimensional
or even four-dimensional thought. I wonder if K ever
read Edwin
A.Abbott?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
J S H.......k e n
t u c k y
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
-----Original
Message-----
From: Jeffrey
Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tuesday,
February 03, 1998 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: the
WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
>Leon Tabory
wrote:
>
>> For
example I haven't seen anyone suggest that pedophilia may be good.
>
>=== Well, I
think that's what it amounts to, when someone tries to
>rationalize
that sex with young teens is not pedophilia, and that it's
>'very common
in other countries'.
Since you are
sparing no words in enlightening us about deficient
epistomologies
and linguistic philosophies let'shave a closer look at your
thought
processes:
If someone says
in some country teenagers considered sufficiently grown up
for sex, does
that mean they say pedophilia is good?
BTW, do you realize that it wasn't so many
generations ago that in the
western world
also, thirteen year olds were considered
old enough for legal
marriage? That
was before they needed as much time as they do now to become
skilled in
socio-economic
activities, not
to reach sexual maturity.
Another question
for you: Got any ideas at what age sexual activities
commonly start
today? I take the question back because I want to take your
advice and drop
this thread. It is not about pedophilia, it is about your
glib cricicisms
of our "simpleminded" posts.
leon
But puh-leeeeze, let's bury the
>pedothread.
I'm sorry I brought it up again.
>
>
>
>> and even
if I like Korzybski's ideas, general
>>
semantics etc., I still will consider some things good and some things
bad.
>
>=== so do I,
and so did Korzybski, I'm sure, but the trick is keep
>perspective
that even so, these are only our opinions and not empirical
>facts.
>
>
>
>>
>> Ditto
for the biography preferences questions. The questions raised and
>>
explanations of preferences given were quite interesting and valid to me.
I
>> didsn't
see any either/or dichotomies there.
>
>=== The whole
name of the thread, "Charters vs. Nicosia", virtually
>screams it
from the rooftop. There is no need to look at the two in
>"vs."
terms, they're both fine books. The real argument is not with the
>books anyway
but the politicking and goings-on with the Kerouac estate
>and Sampas.
>
>
>
>> Excuse
me, I am fluent in more than two languages and I believe you are
>>
basically wrong about your conclusions regarding the posts that you saw
>
>=== My
reference to being multi-lingual had absolutely nothing to do
>with those
posts, I was talking about something else by that point. I
>was referring
to the heightened sense of awareness one gains regarding
>language when
one is multi-lingual.
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>J.S.Holland,
ky
>getting
really
>tired of
saying
>everything
twice
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
At 09:57 PM
1/29/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message
dated 29-Jan-98 6:55:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU
writes:
>
><<
Finnegans Wake
>
>
> Finnegans of
the world wake up
> >>
>thanks,
tim... the second I sent it I thought I'd done it wrong. Maggie
>
>
Finnegan, Begin
again..., with Kerouac stuff. I thought
I had wandered
onto the Joyce
list. Finnegan's Wake is inpenetrable,
but Molly
Bloom's soliloqhy
is the most wonderful payoff to Ulysses.
Mike
rice
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From: Sean Young <Sean.Young@DSW.COM>
Subject: General Semantics basic overview
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Hello all:
I posted this overview to clarify some
General Semantics
misconceptions. It is from this Web site:
http://www.general-semantics.org/graphics/ghome.html
Sorry if it is overly long. When reading
it also consider how
Burroughs expressed similar ideas. I believe
it sheds light on what
Burroughs was doing with language in the
cut-ups and his collage
methods. As in: trying to cut through
wordlines and get to the
prerecordings themselves. Check out the
above Web site's section on
Major Works and read "The role of
language in the perceptual process"
by Korzybski. I myself have just started
reading about General
Semantics and that is why I chose to use
the GS instute's wording
here. Note the copyright at the bottom.
Peace and understanding to all.
Sean D. Young
-------------------------------------------------------------------
General-Semantics
....it's not semantics
....it's not just a matter of words
....it's an approach to living
How is it that we humans have
advanced so far in science,
mathematics and technology, yet we
demonstrate so much confusion,
misunderstanding, and violence in our
interactions with others and
within ourselves?
This question led engineer and scholar
Alfred Korzybski on a lifelong
quest to examine the structures behind the
methods of science and then
to apply these structures generally to all
areas of human existence.
This journey led him to study the new
outlooks in physics, chemistry,
etc., the foundations of mathematics,
psychiatry, etc., and to
formulate their most up-to-date principles
into a practical, teachable
system for living. He called this system
General Semantics ("g-s") and
introduced it in his major work, Science
and Sanity, first printed in
1933 and now in its fifth edition. The
book has inspired many
popularizations, over one hundred and
fifty doctoral dissertations and
two journals.
General-Semantics teaches that life
issues become clearer and
more manageable as we move toward:
* a better understanding of the
background assumptions we bring to
a situation
* a willingness and an ability to make
careful and clear
observations
* a willingness to continuously test,
examine, evaluate, and change
our assumptions and behavior based on our
observations.
G-S provides information, methods,
structures, and practical
devices to assist us with the above goals
We Humans can be described as ...
Time-Binders -- Each generation, through
symbols, especially language,
gains from and builds upon the experience
of past generations. We
learn from each other, and pass on this
knowledge. Korzybski called
this process "time-binding", and
considered it important enough to
serve as a basis for defining humans.
Symbol Users -- Humans are symbol users
and symbol manipulators.
Language, including the special language
called "mathematics", is our
most important symbol system. How we use
language determines the way
we think, our relationship with ourselves,
others, and our world. Many
human problems can be traced to our
ignorance of the ways we use
language and the ways language uses us.
Problem Solvers -- Critical thinking and
creative problem solving are
basic human activities. Science and
mathematics are examples of our
mosteffective problem solving activities
-- effective in terms of
realizing goals. Effective problem solving
requires an ability to
first clarify the issues involved
(therefore to think critically) and
then apply creative processes to generate
proposed solutions, which
are then critically evaluated.
General-Semantics and Problem Solving
G-S is a system which generalizes the
principles and methods of
modern science to all areas of human
activity. Its principles and
methods can be utilized to enhance our day
to day activities and our
relationships.
Some Formulations of General-Semantics --
necessarily broad and
incomplete
We live in a world of constant change
and uncertainty. Our
experience, knowledge and understanding
have limits. Our lives are a
blend of different and sometimes
conflicting relationships. Bringing
this into awareness is a step toward
healthier living. When we
interact with an object, a person, or a
situation, we form images and
create symbols. Initially these occur
totally within ourselves and our
nervous systems. Our brains form these
images and symbols by modelling
(mapping) the outside world and in the
process filters out most
information. The selected information
therefore always represents an
abstract of the interaction.
Different people select (abstract)
information differently --
draw different maps of a territory.
Awareness of this abstracting process
provides a key to
developing our potential as humans.
The symbols we form, the words we use
are not the
object/situation in all its infinite
characteristics.
Many of our personal
misunderstandings arise when we act as if we
have all the information about anything or
anyone.
No two objects or situations are
exactly the same, but, for
convenience, we may categorize them.
Treating them as if they were the
same --
ignoring their differences -- can
lead to misunderstandings,
conflicts, and even tragedies.
We often confuse our symbols and maps
with what they represent.
We benefit by remembering that the map is
not the territory, the word
is not the thing. They are symbols we have
created.
We are self-reflexive; we react to
our reactions. This gives us
opportunities to improve what we believe,
think, feel, see and do.
A Tool for Life
General-Semantics has been a useful
discipline in helping people
with:
Personal relationships
Critical thinking
Professional development
Child raising
Adjustment to change
Communication
Industrial management
Problem solving
Decision making
Stress management
Conflict management
and more.....
General-Semantics...
...teaches us how symbols are related to
experience so as to make
it less likely that we take too seriously
the absurd or dangerous
nonsense that within every culture passes
for philosophy, wisdom, and
political argument. --- Aldous Huxley
...helps us to understand ourselves
better so that we can
understand others better. --- Karen
Groshek
...like a bag of tools. When
different situations arise you open
the bag and take out the tool that will
help you with a particular
situation... --- A member of g-s
discussion group
...experience shows that when the
methods of general semantics
are applied, the results are usually
beneficial, whether in law,
medicine, business, etc., be they in
family, national, or
international fields. If they are not
applied, but merely talked
about, no results can be expected.
--- Alfred Korzybski
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The Institute of General Semantics also
has available for purchase
Books, Tapes, and Videos. Listings of
materials, programs and
Institute membership are available on
request. Request information by
e-mail.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Permission is hereby granted to share
electronic and hard copy
versions of this text with individuals
under circumstances in which no
direct payment is made by those to whom
the text is given for the text
itself, the volume or other medium or
online service in which it is
included, tuition or other payment for the
course or seminar, and so
forth. This notice must remain a part of
the text. Any other use is
reserved to the Institute of General
Semantics and/or
the author and requires prior permission.
For further information,
e-mail the Institute or write: The
Institute of General Semantics, 163
Engle Street, #4B, Englewood, NJ 07631,
USA.
Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:50:37 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: One
(was: the WSB-Korzybski connection)
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Jeff Taylor
wrote:
>
> Did K say
that NO idea can be perfectly stated? If he did, he's wrong
> about that,
too: when we say "one", we have stated the idea of the
> number one
as perfectly as perfect can be. 1 is *exactly* 1 and
> nothing
else.
=== oh, come on!
....you can't possibly be serious.
what IS
"one"? what IS the idea of the number one? how do you know?
prove it. Don't
point to a book because I'll ask, how do your sources
know? can they
prove it? how? Is one the first number? Or is it zero? I
thought integers
were numbers, what about negative integers? How can
there be ANY
first number with negative integers? When we say "one",
might we be
referring not to the number so much as a person (i.e. "JSH
is the cute
one" or "one might ask oneself")? The American Heritage
dictionary gives
seven different distinct meanings for "one", and simply
saying
"one" most assuredly does NOT state the idea perfectly. It only
seems like it if
you ALREADY KNOW the idea of one. Assuming the listener
even speaks
English. Does "Ein" have the same meaning as "One"? Does
not
any word have
different shades of personal meanings to each person? And
is it really the
loneliest number that we'll ever do?
=-=-=-=
jsh
ky
quack
=-=-=-=
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:57:44 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: General Semantics basic overview
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Sean,
Having gotten
myself involved in reacting to putdowns, I especially
appreciate a review of the cooling understandings and
tools of General
Semantics.
I had completely
forgotten that in 1959 I had done a study at the request of
a man who led
General Semantics training goups at San Quentin. The man did
it on his own
time voluntarily. I will not rest until I recall his name.
Applying the
Minnesota Multiphasic Personality test to his group before and
after their
training we found a statistically significant improvement in
thinking
processes. We reported the findings at a
conference at
Napa State Hospital at the time. Thanks for bringing back a
pleasant memory.
leon
From: Sean Young
<Sean.Young@DSW.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tuesday,
February 03, 1998 2:31 PM
Subject: General
Semantics basic overview
> Hello all:
> I posted this overview to clarify some
General Semantics
> misconceptions. It is from this Web site:
>
http://www.general-semantics.org/graphics/ghome.html
> Sorry if it is overly long. When reading
it also consider how
> Burroughs expressed similar ideas. I
believe it sheds light on what
> Burroughs was doing with language in the
cut-ups and his collage
> methods. As in: trying to cut through
wordlines and get to the
> prerecordings themselves. Check out the
above Web site's section on
> Major Works and read "The role of
language in the perceptual process"
> by Korzybski. I myself have just started
reading about General
> Semantics and that is why I chose to use
the GS instute's wording
> here. Note the copyright at the bottom.
>
> Peace and understanding to all.
>
> Sean D. Young
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> General-Semantics
>
>
> ....it's not semantics
>
> ....it's not just a matter of words
>
> ....it's an approach to living
>
> How is it that we humans have
advanced so far in science,
> mathematics and technology, yet we
demonstrate so much confusion,
> misunderstanding, and violence in our
interactions with others and
> within ourselves?
>
> This question led engineer and scholar
Alfred Korzybski on a lifelong
> quest to examine the structures behind the
methods of science and then
> to apply these structures generally to all
areas of human existence.
> This journey led him to study the new outlooks
in physics, chemistry,
> etc., the foundations of mathematics,
psychiatry, etc., and to
> formulate their most up-to-date principles
into a practical, teachable
> system for living. He called this system
General Semantics ("g-s") and
> introduced it in his major work, Science
and Sanity, first printed in
> 1933 and now in its fifth edition. The
book has inspired many
> popularizations, over one hundred and
fifty doctoral dissertations and
> two journals.
>
> General-Semantics teaches that life issues
become clearer and
> more manageable as we move toward:
> * a better understanding of the
background assumptions we bring to
> a situation
> * a willingness and an ability to make
careful and clear
> observations
> * a willingness to continuously test,
examine, evaluate, and change
> our assumptions and behavior based on our
observations.
>
> G-S provides information, methods,
structures, and practical
> devices to assist us with the above goals
>
> We Humans can be described as ...
>
> Time-Binders -- Each generation, through
symbols, especially language,
> gains from and builds upon the experience
of past generations. We
> learn from each other, and pass on this
knowledge. Korzybski called
> this process "time-binding", and
considered it important enough to
> serve as a basis for defining humans.
>
> Symbol Users -- Humans are symbol users
and symbol manipulators.
> Language, including the special language
called "mathematics", is our
> most important symbol system. How we use
language determines the way
> we think, our relationship with ourselves,
others, and our world. Many
> human problems can be traced to our
ignorance of the ways we use
> language and the ways language uses us.
>
> Problem Solvers -- Critical thinking and
creative problem solving are
> basic human activities. Science and
mathematics are examples of our
> mosteffective problem solving activities --
effective in terms of
> realizing goals. Effective problem solving
requires an ability to
> first clarify the issues involved
(therefore to think critically) and
> then apply creative processes to generate
proposed solutions, which
> are then critically evaluated.
>
> General-Semantics and Problem Solving
> G-S is a system which generalizes the
principles and methods of
> modern science to all areas of human
activity. Its principles and
> methods can be utilized to enhance our day
to day activities and our
> relationships.
>
> Some Formulations of General-Semantics --
necessarily broad and
> incomplete
>
> We live in a world of constant change
and uncertainty. Our
> experience, knowledge and understanding
have limits. Our lives are a
> blend of different and sometimes
conflicting relationships. Bringing
> this into awareness is a step toward
healthier living. When we
> interact with an object, a person, or a
situation, we form images and
> create symbols. Initially these occur
totally within ourselves and our
> nervous systems. Our brains form these
images and symbols by modelling
> (mapping) the outside world and in the
process filters out most
> information. The selected information
therefore always represents an
> abstract of the interaction.
>
> Different people select (abstract)
information differently --
> draw different maps of a territory.
> Awareness of this abstracting process
provides a key to
> developing our potential as humans.
> The symbols we form, the words we use
are not the
> object/situation in all its infinite
characteristics.
> Many of our personal misunderstandings
arise when we act as if we
> have all the information about anything or
anyone.
> No two objects or situations are
exactly the same, but, for
> convenience, we may categorize them.
Treating them as if they were the
> same --
> ignoring their differences -- can
lead to misunderstandings,
> conflicts, and even tragedies.
> We often confuse our symbols and maps
with what they represent.
> We benefit by remembering that the map is
not the territory, the word
> is not the thing. They are symbols we have
created.
> We are self-reflexive; we react to
our reactions. This gives us
> opportunities to improve what we believe,
think, feel, see and do.
>
> A Tool for Life
>
> General-Semantics has been a useful
discipline in helping people
> with:
>
> Personal relationships
> Critical thinking
> Professional development
> Child raising
> Adjustment to change
> Communication
> Industrial management
> Problem solving
> Decision making
> Stress management
> Conflict management
> and more.....
>
> General-Semantics...
>
> ...teaches us how symbols are related
to experience so as to make
> it less likely that we take too seriously
the absurd or dangerous
> nonsense that within every culture passes
for philosophy, wisdom, and
> political argument. --- Aldous Huxley
>
> ...helps us to understand ourselves
better so that we can
> understand others better. --- Karen
Groshek
>
> ...like a bag of tools. When
different situations arise you open
> the bag and take out the tool that will
help you with a particular
> situation... --- A member of g-s
discussion group
>
> ...experience shows that when the
methods of general semantics
> are
applied, the results are usually beneficial, whether in law,
> medicine, business, etc., be they in
family, national, or
> international fields. If they are not
applied, but merely talked
> about, no results can be expected.
> --- Alfred Korzybski
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Institute of General Semantics also
has available for purchase
> Books, Tapes, and Videos. Listings of
materials, programs and
> Institute membership are available on
request. Request information by
> e-mail.
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> Permission is hereby granted to share
electronic and hard copy
> versions of this text with individuals
under circumstances in which no
> direct payment is made by those to whom
the text is given for the text
> itself, the volume or other medium or
online service in which it is
> included, tuition or other payment for the
course or seminar, and so
> forth. This notice must remain a part of
the text. Any other use is
> reserved to the Institute of General
Semantics and/or
> the author and requires prior permission.
For further information,
> e-mail the Institute or write: The
Institute of General Semantics, 163
> Engle Street, #4B, Englewood, NJ 07631,
USA.
>
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:57:15 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Young <Sean.Young@DSW.COM>
Subject: Re: GS overview/Beat list
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Leon
and all,
Leon, thanks for your story. Yeah, GS
seems to bring a calmer approach
to communicating. Upon reading about
General Semantics I was struck
with how much of our time in our lives is
spent arguing over "what I
meant to say" or "you don't know
what you're talking about" types of
statements.
I hope that on the list we could sometimes
pause on the list and seek
"to understand" before
"being understood". Stating considerations as
opposed to declaring a position. Sharing
ideas as opposed to hurling
opinions back and forth. I look at it like
this: Opinions are easy,
anyone can have one, you don't need to
work for an opinion. Whereas
ideas have to be thought about, they are
always considerations and
subject to evolution. And opposing views
can help to sculpt a more
refined idea. And the realization that we
are all on the same path on
the Beat list, we may be at different
points on the path but it is the
same path.
Peace
Sean D. Young
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:01:55 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
someone wrote:
>I was
referring to the heightened sense of awareness one gains regarding
>language when
one is multi-lingual.
i would go
further and say that adding even one language be it spoken or
symbolic, eg.,
music, math, etc., expands the structures within which one
thinks. language is built by a culture's particular
experience and thought
patterns. hence the fact that some languages are
extremely expressive about
certain ideas,
feelings, etc., while some languages have very few words for
the same
things. multilingualism at its best
allows much deeper
understanding of
cultures, psyches, the world around us and ourselves
because it
broadens our ability to conceptualize and pay attention to things
which, in our
native cultures, may not be considered much, if at all.
however, the
multilinguist must be open enough to pay attention to and
accept these
diversities, or the "awareness" may only be: "people are
different in
other parts of the world, and they don't have a clue".
ciao, sherri
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:14:54 -0500
Reply-To: "eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "D. Patrick Hornberger"
<"eastwind@erols.com"@EROLS.COM>
Organization:
EASTWIND PUBLISHING
Subject: Re: Beats and the Lost Generation
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Maggie Gerrity
wrote:
>
> I'm preparing to start research for a paper
I'm going to write
> comparing
the Beats to the Lost Generation of the 1920's and 30's.
> I've seen a
lot of similarities between the two groups: substance
> abuse,
disillusionment with America, expatriatism (both literal and
> figurative).
> I plan to center my argument around a
comparison of _On The Road_ to
> Hemingway's
_The Sun Also Rises_ and "Howl" to T.S. Eliot's "The
>
Wasteland."
> Just curious to hear if anyone else has seen
any similarites between
> these two
literary groups, probably the two greatest in the history of
> American
Lit.
> Thanks,
> maggie g.
>
> ==
> "In
dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>
>
_________________________________________________________
> DO YOU
YAHOO!?
> Get your
free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Great idea -
Maggie
As a Publisher
and (past Beat - Paris & NEw York) I think your idea may
be a reasonable
book. Any interest in writing it?
I can think of a
number of similarities to the two--mostly in the case
of their European
experience...in particlar Paris.Both groups found
agreeable
publishers in Europe for some of their early work.OTR and Sun
Also Rises share
a genrational similarity - Ginsberg and JK looking for
Zen while Larry
in Sun looks for similar mystic understanding. etc etc.
Return-Path:
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:27:13 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zucchini4@AOL.COM
Subject: Beats and Post/Modernism
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
hey everybody. SO
today, I took up (again) what is turning
out to be my
eternal quest for
the meaning of "post modernism"-- seems no matter how much I
read, it just
gets more confusing....And then I decided to start w/ modernism,
which was worse.
The article I was reading mentioned every type of literature
created in the
first half of this century, and I had thought it was more of a
philosophy than a
time period, even though the two are closely linked.
Anyway- one of
the major characteristics of modernism, in fact, the first one
listed, is
"stream of conciousness" writing. And of course, no mention of
Keroauc or any
other Beat-type, when it always seemed to me that they had
played a big part
in developing this as a technique.
So I'm basicly
asking for any input/ideas about modernism or postmodernism in
general, and how
the beats relate to either of these topics. I'm a little
lost, and I
thought, who better to ask? :)
--Stephanie
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:41:15 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB-Huncke connection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
OKay, thanks. I
didnt know this about Huncke...
On Tue, 3 Feb
1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
> Nancy B
Brodsky wrote:
> >
> > Did you
know that Herbert Huncke gave WSB his very first shot? I found
> > that
out today, from the Huncke Reader I told y'all about.
>
>
> === Huncke
is not world reknowned for his honesty.....according to Ted
> Morgan, WSB
was selling and using Junk when the two met for the first
> time. WSB
offered to sell some Junk and some guns to Huncke and another
> guy, that's
how they met. I don't know who's right and who's wrong, of
> course - I
wasn't there, obviously - but I tend to believe WSB & Morgan
> over Huncke.
>
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Jeffrey
Scott Holland - ky
> listening to
distant sirens
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
The Absence of
Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:08:36 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
My question will
be what kind of control will the estate exercise over
Brinkley's
work. I myself will be very anxious to
read his book when
published, but
wonder if the gate keeper will allow everything out into the
open. I look forward to the day it is published, as
I will read it as soon
as I can get a
copy.
Jeffrey Scott
Holland wrote:
> Richard
Wallner wrote:
> >
> > Both
are good books...but the best Kerouac bio is yet to come. Neither
> > Nicosia
or Charters had access to all of Kerouac's journals and papers.
> > Douglas
Brinkley has been chosen by the Sampas family to write the
> >
"authorized" biography, the first written with full access to the
> >
papers. Im sure Brinkley willdo a terrific
job, provided Sampas doesnt
> > try to
edit it as he did the letters.
>
> === I wish
Brinkley would find a way to surreptitiously photocopy
> everything
and then leak it to the world.
>
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ky
> Jeffrey
> Scott
> Holland
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= still eatin' ice cream
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:32:39 -0600
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From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
On Tue, 3 Feb
1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
> What
endeared WSB most to Korzybski's theory of general semantics was
> the way in
which it showed the errors of Aristotelian thinking - the
>
"either/or" simplistic way of thinking
>
> To
Korzybski, a printed or spoken word was emphatically not the thing it
> represented,
Isn't there just
an obvious contradiction here? K (and WSB following
him) insists that
either/or logic is a basic error, but then in
practically the
same breath, they themselves insist on an either/or
distinction:
EITHER the word OR the thing.
A further irony
is that this particular distinction is not even
generally valid:
while the word "table" is not itself a table, the
word
"word" *is* itself a word. So sometimes the word *can* be the
thing it
represents.
It seems to me
that either/or logic, must, at at least some level, be
correct. *At the
very least* we need the following either/or: EITHER
some thing is
different in *some* way from something else OR it is
not. If we
couldn't tell whether or not anything was different from
anything else,
reality as a whole would just melt down into one
all-purpose blob.
Mathematics is unthinkable without either/or logic.
Computers too.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:43:12 -0700
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From: Matthew Felix
<felix@ENGR.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: james baldwin
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
here is a long one:)
first off i have been unattentive to the list
for the past few days
so i am sorry if
i am stepping on the toes of other interesting
threads, but i am
in a journey for knowledge and sometimes you got to
step up and try
to start a thread of your own, ehh?
here we go i just put down james baldwin's
Sonny's Blues and at the
moment am hit
with soul searching thoughts about the fifties, bebop,
kerouac, racism,
and that common quest to uncover every inner emotion that
we all hide from
the world for the reason that we dont have anyone to
listen or have no
clue how to express it.
anyway this is just pure rantings from a
man deeply touched by this
story in need to
discuss this with anyone who would like to. sorry if
this is coming
out as jibberish but i am typing faster than normal.
what
struck me about the story as being related to the Beats is
the fact that the
story is about baldwin's younger brother coming from the
hopeless
situation of blacks in harlem finding there place in a still
racially overcast
society. his brother Sonny, dreamed of something better
a way of finding
who he was because he had a sense that he was greater
than what his
fate seemed to be headed toward. so he found his light
in music wishing
to be like Charlie Parker (ehh? sound a little similar to
mr. kerouac?)
so Sonny sought refuge in the Navy
(JK/merchant marines) then in small
apartments in the
village. and finally fell into the addiction of most
jazz musicians of
the time, heroin. anyway, baldwin's position is that he
is the older
brother trying to understand his younger brothers search for
a greater
understanding of his own life. and finally realizes that it is
his jazz which is
where the human soul is able to escape.
told you it would be jibberish but trust me
this is a great story and
if anyone has
read it (please tell me you have) then backchannel me or
share it out in
the open for the whole world to see.
oops!
sorry sometimes i confuse the real world with this computer
world we are all
in.
again please forgive the long rant but if i
am going to post for the
first time then i
might as well make it a splashing one....
"...no one really knows what i'm talking
about, yeah that's right my
name is Yauch..."
matt
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling
small thoughts
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: New Millenium Questions]]
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
charles plymell
may return to the list soon.
DR
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From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
All existing
biographies do not even remotely grasp the depth of Kerouac's
persona, genius,
character, etc. The core to his insightful grasp of the
world and how his
intelligence worked exists most likely in his notebooks
and journals
which he kept up with throughout his life. Douglas Brinkley is
pursuing this
biography because he wanted to, not because he was chosen by
the estate and is
being paid to do it by them. It was a mutual agreement,
Brinkley wanted
to do it, Sterling Lord told the Estate, and the Estate
agreed to let him
do it. I don't think there is a concern over the estate
exercising
control over what will and won't be admitted in the biography.
Brinkley stands
on his own as a true scholar who will labor over this
venture with
integrity, craft, and above all scholarship. Something gravely
lacking in
current biographies in publication today. What we have here is
either a quick
summary of the author's life (which is good if you want that
type of thing
meaning Clark, Charters, and McNally), mock-critical
biographies which
purport to be the "best" and most incisive (yet to be
proven because it
does not stand the test of time: Memory Babe), or just
plain old
money-making good-only-for-the-pictures type bio (Angel-Headed
Hipster et. al.).
My own work which is over 500 pages I shelved in favor of
a diferent
approach to "biography." With the onset of Some of the Dharma and
a forthcoming
volume of letters, there is still much to be done in the way
of Kerouac
biography. Those who have written about K. had to do so with the
material that was
available to them. But none of them can ever be purported
as the
"best" for each offers something different to the reader. Paul of The
Kerouac
Quarterly.
"We cannot
well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
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From: "V.J. Eaton"
<vj@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>From TKQ
>All existing
biographies do not even remotely grasp the depth of Kerouac's
>persona,
genius, character, etc.
and on . . .
Claptrap from a
youngster. Fortunately it was only an
e-mail . . . and not
500 pages.
_____________________
More harm is done
under guise of goodness than ever realized
by foul deed or
evil doer. Nevertheless, I wish I was
good.
--Herbert Huncke
V.J. Eaton
Tempe, AZ
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:51:31 -0600
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From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
On Tue, 3 Feb
1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
> > Isn't
there just an obvious contradiction here? K (and WSB following
> > him)
insists that either/or logic is a basic error, but then in
> > practically
the same breath, they themselves insist on an either/or
> >
distinction: EITHER the word OR the thing.
>
> === *Do*
they insist on a word/thing dichotomy? I hadn't thought of it
> in that way.
To say that "a thing and a word are not the same" is not
> the same
statement as "If it's not a thing, it must be a word".
Well, that's not
what I said or implied. If indeed it's true that K
says that the
word is emphatically not the thing it refers to, then he
is insisting on a
word/thing dichotomy--not one that is meant to be
exhaustive of
reality as whole, of course, BUT IT IS STILL AN
EITHER/OR
DISTINCTION. And of course if it's possible to identify
something as word
at all and oppose it to a thing--well, this implies
the distinction
that everything is EITHER a word OR not a word--a
distinction that
IS valid for reality as a whole. As far as I can
tell, the whole
conceptuality in play here is still solidly founded on
either/or logic.
> I assume
> K and WSB
both would have said that K's principles of semantics also
> applies to
itself, and that the idea can never be 100% perfectly stated,
> only
approached.
Did K say that NO
idea can be perfectly stated? If he did, he's wrong
about that, too:
when we say "one", we have stated the idea of the
number one as
perfectly as perfect can be. 1 is *exactly* 1 and
nothing else.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Bentz,
Think of what a
biographer could do if (s)he could walk into the New York
Public Library
and have access to everything JK left when he died. Then add
all of Nicosia's
taped interviews to that stash, plus Charter's research
material.
Would that be
a dream archive? Or would it be a dream
archive?
j grant
>My question
will be what kind of control will the estate exercise over
>Brinkley's
work. I myself will be very anxious to
read his book when
>published,
but wonder if the gate keeper will allow everything out into the
>open. I look forward to the day it is published, as
I will read it as soon
>as I can get
a copy.
>
>Jeffrey Scott
Holland wrote:
>
>> Richard
Wallner wrote:
>> >
>> >
Both are good books...but the best Kerouac bio is yet to come. Neither
>> >
Nicosia or Charters had access to all of Kerouac's journals and papers.
>> >
Douglas Brinkley has been chosen by the Sampas family to write the
>> >
"authorized" biography, the first written with full access to the
>> >
papers. Im sure Brinkley willdo a
terrific job, provided Sampas doesnt
>> > try
to edit it as he did the letters.
>>
>> === I
wish Brinkley would find a way to surreptitiously photocopy
>> everything
and then leak it to the world.
>>
>>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ky
>> Jeffrey
>> Scott
>> Holland
>>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= still eatin' ice cream
>
>
>
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:49:07 -0600
Reply-To: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
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From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: One
(was: the WSB-Korzybski connection)
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
On Tue, 3 Feb
1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
> > Did K
say that NO idea can be perfectly stated? If he did, he's wrong
> > about
that, too: when we say "one", we have stated the idea of the
> > number
one as perfectly as perfect can be. 1 is *exactly* 1 and
> > nothing
else.
>
> === oh, come
on! ....you can't possibly be serious.
>
> what IS
"one"? what IS the idea of the number one? how do you know?
> prove it.
Don't point to a book because I'll ask, how do your sources
> know? can
they prove it? how? Is one the first number? Or is it zero? I
> thought
integers were numbers, what about negative integers? How can
> there be ANY
first number with negative integers? When we say "one",
> might we be
referring not to the number so much as a person (i.e. "JSH
> is the cute
one" or "one might ask oneself")? The American Heritage
> dictionary
gives seven different distinct meanings for "one", and simply
> saying
"one" most assuredly does NOT state the idea perfectly. It only
> seems like
it if you ALREADY KNOW the idea of one. Assuming the listener
> even speaks
English. Does "Ein" have the same meaning as "One"? Does
not
> any word
have different shades of personal meanings to each person? And
> is it really
the loneliest number that we'll ever do?
If you really
don't know what the number 1 is, I don't know what else
I can say to you.
OF COURSE the pattern of dots "one" can have any
possible meaning,
if you so choose. But what it refers to, when it's
used to refer to
the number 1, a pure singular unity, then it most
certainly does
express it perfectly. When you know what 1 is, there's
absolutely
nothing more to be known about it *itself*. Whether it's
the "first
number" is a totally extrinsic question. The number 1 does
not exist inside
my, or anyone else's, head. OF COURSE it can can have
all sorts of
subjective connotations, but those sorts of things have
ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING TO DO with what it itself is.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
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From: Albert Min
<deadbaby@MAILEXCITE.COM>
Organization:
MailExcite (http://www.mailexcite.com)
Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>>At 07:46
PM 2/3/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>From
TKQ
>>>>All
existing biographies do not even remotely grasp the depth of Kerouac's
>>>>persona,
genius, character, etc.
>>>
>>>and
on . . .
>>>
>>>Claptrap
from a youngster. Fortunately it was
only an e-mail . . . and not
>>>500
pages.
>>>
>>
>>I can
prove what I say because I have researched 500 pages worth of material
>>( not
counting what was discarded). What is the source of your "claptrap"?
>>Because
you think me a youngster, that may be, it may not be, that stement
>>of yours
is irellevant, but what does the views of a "youngster" have to do
>>with
recognizing K. as a genius? My statements are to the effect that for
>>the most
part, biographies up to now have remained largely adulatory in
>>their
tone, but not mature in taking K. as a serious writer, architect of
>>new style
of consciousness-description, but also hugely capable of character
>>flaws
like everybody else. What biography can you show me that is accurately
>>documented
with solid proof on every page?
>> Your dismissal is largely condescending in
nature and biased in attitude.
>>I can
make an honest assessment because I researched my work and I have the
>>background
for it. What is yours? Paul...
>>"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
>>
Henry David Thoreau
>
>He's
commenting on the content of your post, not your age.
>
>j grant
>
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
>
http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>
Then what was the
purpose of mentioning age at all? what
is the purpose of
calling
his post
"claptrap"? If you're going to
criticize the content then explain what
you thought was
wrong with it. I think Eaton's terse
comment was highly
unnecessary.
Al
Free web-based
email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com
>From
CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!owner-beat-l Fri Feb 6
09:34:25 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:58:11 -0800
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From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: LONG:
Corso on Kerouac part #1
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
ELEGAIC FEELINGS
AMERICAN
(for the dear memory of Jack Kerouac)
1
How inseparable
you and the Maerica you saw yet was
never to see +ADs- you and America,
like the
tree and teh ground, are one the
same+ADs- yet how
like a palm tree in the state of
Oregon... dead
ere it blossomed, like a snow polar
loping the
Miami --
How so that which
you were or hoped to be, and the
America not, the America you saw
yet could
not see
So like yet
unlike the ground from which you stemmed+ADs-
you stood upon America like a
rootless
flat-bottomed tree+ADs- to the
squirrel there was no
divorcement in its hop of ground to
its climb of
tree... until it saw no acorn fall,
then it knew
there was no marriage between the
two+ADs- how
fruitless, how useless, the sad
unnaturalness
of nature+ADs- no wonder the dawn
ceased being
a joy... for what good the earth
and sun when
the tree in between is good for
nothing... the
inseparable trinity, once
dissevered, becomes a
cold fruitless meaningless
thrice-marked
deathlie in its awful amputation...
O butcher
the pork-chop is not the pig -- the
American
alien in America is a bitter
truncationa+ADs- and even
this elegy dear Jack. shall have a
butchered
tree, a tree beaten to a pulp, upon
which it'll be
contained -- no wonder no good news
can be
written on such bad news --
How alien the
natural home, aye, aye, how dies the tree
when the ground is foreign, cold,
unfree -- The
winds know not to blow the seed of
the
Redwood where none before had
stood+ADs- no palm is
blown to Oregon, how wise the wind
-- Wise
too the senders of the prophet...
knowing the
fertility of the designated spot
where suchmeant
prophecy be announced and answerable -- the
sower of wheat does no sow in teh
fields of
cane+ADs- for the sender of the
voice did also send the ear.
And were little Liechtenstein, and
not
America, the designation.... surely
then we'd
the tongues of Liechtenstein --
Was not so much
our finding America as it was America
finding its voice in us+ADs- many
spoke to America
as though America by land-right was
theirs by
law-right legistlatively acquired
by materialistic
coups of wealth and
inheritance+ADs- like the citizen
of society believes himself the
owner of society,
and what he makes of himself he
makes of
America and thus when he speaks of
America
he speaks of himself, and quite
often, such a he
is duly elected to represent what he represents...
an infernal ego of America
Thus many a
patriot speaks lovingly of himself when he
speaks of America, and not to
appreciate him is
no to appreciate America, and vice
versa
The tongue of
truth is the true tongue of America, and it
could not be in the +ACI-Daily
Heralds+ACI- since
the voice therein was a controlled
voice.
wickedly opinionated, and directed
at gullible
No wonder we
found ourselves rootless... for we've become
the very roots themselves -- the
lie can never
take root and there grow under a
truth of sun
and therefrom ber the fruit of
truth
Alas, Jack, seems
I cannot requiem the without
requieming America, and that's one
requiem
I shall not presume, for as long as
I live there'll
be no requiems for me
For though the
tree dies the tree id born anew, only until
the tree dies forever and never a
tree born
anew... shall the ground die too
Yours the eyes
that saw, the heart that felt, the voice that
sang and cried+ADs- and as long as
America shall
live, though ye old Kerouac body
hath died,
yet shall you live... for indeed
ours was a time
of prophecy wiithout death as a
consequence...
for indeed after us came assassins,
and who'll doubt thy last words,
+ACI-After me...
the deluge+ACI-
Ah, but were it a
matter of season I'd not doubt the return
of the tree, for what good the
ground upon
which we stand itself unable to
stand -- aye the
tree will seasonal time fall, for
it be nature's
wont, that's why the ground, the
down, the slow
yet sure decompostion, until the
very tree
becomes the very ground where once
it stood+ADs-
yet falls the ground... ah then
what?
unanswerable this be unto nature,
for there is
no ground whereon to fall and land,
no down,
no up even, directionless. and into
what, if what,
compostion goeth its decomposition?
We came to
announce the human spirit in the name of
beauty and truth+ADs- now this
spirit cries out in
nature's sake the horrendous
imbalance of all
things natural... elusive nature
caught+ACE- like a
bird in hand, harnessed and
engineered in the
unevolutional ways of experimetn
and technique
Yes though the
tree has taken root in the ground the ground
is upturned and in this forced
vomitage is spewn
the fire miasma of fossilific trees
of death the
million-yeared pirch and grease of
a dinosauric
age dead and gone how all brought
to surface
again and made to raom the sky we
breathe in
stampedes of pollution
What hope for the
America so embodied in thee, O friend,
when the very same alcohol that
disembodied
your brother redman of his America
disembodied ye -- A plot to grab
their land, we
know, yet what plot to grab the
ungrabbable
land of one's spirit? Thy visionary America were
impossible to unvision -- for when
the shades of
the windows of the spirit are brought
down, that
which was seen yet remains... the
eyes of the
spirit yet see
Aye the America
so embodied in thee, so definitely rooted
therefrom, is the living embodiment
of all
humanity, young and free
And though the
great redemptive tree blooms, not yet full,
not yet entirely sure, there be the
darksters, sad
sad and old, would like to have it
fall+ADs- they hack
and shop and saw away... that
nothing full
and young and free for sure be left to
stand at
all
Verily were such
a tree as youth be... were such be made
to fall, and never rise again, then
shall
the ground fall, and the deluge
come and wash
it asunder, wholly all and forever, like a
wind
out of nowhere into nowhere
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From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
At 07:46 PM
2/3/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>From TKQ
>>All
existing biographies do not even remotely grasp the depth of Kerouac's
>>persona,
genius, character, etc.
>
>and on . . .
>
>Claptrap from
a youngster. Fortunately it was only an
e-mail . . . and not
>500 pages.
>
I can prove what
I say because I have researched 500 pages worth of material
( not counting
what was discarded). What is the source of your "claptrap"?
Because you think
me a youngster, that may be, it may not be, that stement
of yours is
irellevant, but what does the views of a "youngster" have to do
with recognizing
K. as a genius? My statements are to the effect that for
the most part,
biographies up to now have remained largely adulatory in
their tone, but
not mature in taking K. as a serious writer, architect of
new style of
consciousness-description, but also hugely capable of character
flaws like
everybody else. What biography can you show me that is accurately
documented with
solid proof on every page?
Your dismissal is largely condescending in
nature and biased in attitude.
I can make an
honest assessment because I researched my work and I have the
background for
it. What is yours? Paul...
"We cannot
well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
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From: John Zarra
<zman1956@BELLATLANTIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Visions of Gerard
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Diane,
Nice post on
VISIONS OF GERARD.
<html>
<font face="Lucian
BT" size=3>John J Zarra Jr</font></html>
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>At 07:46 PM
2/3/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>From
TKQ
>>>All
existing biographies do not even remotely grasp the depth of Kerouac's
>>>persona,
genius, character, etc.
>>
>>and on .
. .
>>
>>Claptrap
from a youngster. Fortunately it was
only an e-mail . . . and not
>>500
pages.
>>
>
>I can prove
what I say because I have researched 500 pages worth of material
>( not
counting what was discarded). What is the source of your "claptrap"?
>Because you
think me a youngster, that may be, it may not be, that stement
>of yours is
irellevant, but what does the views of a "youngster" have to do
>with
recognizing K. as a genius? My statements are to the effect that for
>the most
part, biographies up to now have remained largely adulatory in
>their tone,
but not mature in taking K. as a serious writer, architect of
>new style of
consciousness-description, but also hugely capable of character
>flaws like
everybody else. What biography can you show me that is accurately
>documented
with solid proof on every page?
> Your dismissal is largely condescending in nature
and biased in attitude.
>I can make an
honest assessment because I researched my work and I have the
>background
for it. What is yours? Paul...
>"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
He's commenting
on the content of your post, not your age.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:58:11 -0800
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 02:45:11 +0100
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Claptrap from an oldster
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
V.J. Eaton wrote:
>
> Claptrap
from a youngster.
=== what makes
people like this join a Beat Generation list? What do
they want? What
are they after? What purpose do they imagine that
statements like
this one serve? Crazy, Man, Crazy. If Kerouac himself
posted to this
list he'd be ridiculed and picked apart and insulted.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
J.Scott Holland,
ky ky ky
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:39:48 -0600
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From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: One
(was: the WSB-Korzybski connection)
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
"Ceci n'est
pas une pipe."--Magritte
Cordially,
Mike Skau
On Tue, 3 Feb
1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
> Jeff Taylor
wrote:
> >
> > Did K
say that NO idea can be perfectly stated? If he did, he's wrong
> > about
that, too: when we say "one", we have stated the idea of the
> > number
one as perfectly as perfect can be. 1 is *exactly* 1 and
> > nothing
else.
>
>
> === oh, come
on! ....you can't possibly be serious.
>
> what IS
"one"? what IS the idea of the number one? how do you know?
> prove it.
Don't point to a book because I'll ask, how do your sources
> know? can
they prove it? how? Is one the first number? Or is it zero? I
> thought
integers were numbers, what about negative integers? How can
> there be ANY
first number with negative integers? When we say "one",
> might we be
referring not to the number so much as a person (i.e. "JSH
> is the cute
one" or "one might ask oneself")? The American Heritage
> dictionary
gives seven different distinct meanings for "one", and simply
> saying
"one" most assuredly does NOT state the idea perfectly. It only
> seems like
it if you ALREADY KNOW the idea of one. Assuming the listener
> even speaks
English. Does "Ein" have the same meaning as "One"? Does
not
> any word
have different shades of personal meanings to each person? And
> is it really
the loneliest number that we'll ever do?
>
> =-=-=-=
> jsh
> ky
> quack
> =-=-=-=
>
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:57:19 -0800
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Visions of Gerard
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Jim Dimock
wrote:
>
> One passage
I noted with special
> interest was
when Gerard and Ti Jean were playing with the kitten. To
> Gerard, the
way we treat others, especially those at our mercy,
> determine
> whether we
are deserving of Heaven. This seems to be a theme throughout
> the Duluoz
legend, but is sidetracked by the introduction of Cody
> (Cassady),
who only to lives for himself. It would seem that the two
> approaches
to life are at odds, and the older Kerouac tried to restore
> his earlier
beliefs while down playing the self-indulgences of his
> adult years.
I can see this
too. Gerard's view of the "way we
treat others" theme
also really stood
out for me in this passage where he is in confession
and he says,
"'My father,
I confess that I pushed a little boy be because he made me
mad.'
'Did you hurt
him?'
'No--but I hurt
his heart.'
The priest is
amazed to hear the refinement of it, the hairsplitting
elegant point of
it, ('He'll make a priest' he inner grins)."
DC
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: WSB HUNCE AND JUNK
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
i've been
following this thread, and thought that some source material
may be helpful to
all:
this is from
ed morgans bio, ,_literary outlaw_ p 119
"they
(huncke and fellow junkies) were back on henry street and
desperate for
junk, when one day in jannuary 1946 bernie barker dropped
by and said
"jesus, good to see you. man, i've got guy lined up , dowing
to be straight
down tonight, i want you to tell me what you think of
him. he
approached me the other day. he's been coming to the drugstore
quite
regregularly, and he's been taling of capers of one sort and
other. he just
told me that he has a sawed-off shot gun with an
automatic pistol
cartridge and some morphine syrettes that he wants to
get rid of "
that sounded good to phil and herbert.
morphine syrettes,
the kind that are
little toothpaste tubes with a neeedle sticking out,
were what they'd
been using on the ship.
pg 120-121:
the evening that
burroughs showed up on henry street, huncke sawa tall
thin man in the
doorway wearing a chesterfield coat and a grey snap-brim
hat, gloves
clutched in one hand. he thought burroughs was the police.
he asked barker
to step into the bedroom and said, 'who is this guy, he
looks like
trouble.' bernie vouched for him, and when they came back
into the kitchen,
burroughs and phil white were discussing the syrettes.
but huncke was
still suspicious and said, 'i don't think i want to
bother, really.'
phil, however, was interested and said he would be in
touch.
p 121
a few days later,
burroughs used one of the syrettes and had his first
experience with
junk. he wanted to see what it was like, as he had done
so with the
chloral hydrate at los alamos, in the spirit of general
inquiry. also, it
seemed the thing to do as far as being a criminal was
concerned. using
junk made him part of the group, it was a sort of rite
of passage.
Finally, there was in burroughs the spirit of the
self-mutilating
scientist that the opium addict writer thomas de quincey
described iin his
_confessions_".....
121
morphing was like
nothing burroughs had ever known. he had the feeling
of moving off the
ground at great speed. he seemed to be floating, as a
wave of pleasure
spread through his tissues. this was followed by a
feeling of fear
and the vision of a neon -lit cocktail lounge, and a
waitress coming
in with a skull on a tray.
'i don't want
your fuckin' skull,' burroughs found himself saying, 'take
it back.'
a few days later,
when phil white came to buy, at four dollars a box,
burroughs laid
him out 10 boxes of syrettes and kept two saying 'these
are for me' phil
looked up, surprised. 'you use it?'
now and then, burroughs
said "its bad stuff phil said shaking his head.
'the worst thing
that can hapen to a man.'
soon burroughs
was buying syrittes from phil, but at a higher price.
often, they would
shoot up together. ....
phil introduced
burroughs to a doctor on 102nd st off broadway, who
would fill
prescriptions. burroughs also started hanging out at the
angler bare on
8th avenue near forty second st, where huncke was often
to be found.
overcoming his suspicion, huncke permitted
122
burroughs to buy
himn drinks and meals-he stil had him inned for a
mark..
sources:burroughs
meets huncke: interview with author, burroughs
archive, lawrence
kansas
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From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Claptrap-- ? or !
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
claptrap
\'klap-,trap\ n : pretentious nonsense
A fabulous word.
Joycean. I'll use it. Thanks.
-jwh
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From: Frank O'Brien
<FMO9287@CUB.UCA.EDU>
Organization:
University of Central Arkansas
Subject: Jane!!!
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I really hate to
fill-up the list serve with this trivial nonesense,
but my computer's
hard drive sought to escape the tedium of samsara
and achieved
nirvana by way of a hard drive crash. I
need to get the
instructions on
how to get off this list serve.
Blessings, Peace,
& Love
OB
Frank O'Brien
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Claptrap-- ? or !
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
jo grant wrote:
>
> Sometimes
the truth is uncomfortable. Read it and forget it.
=== What is
truth? On second thought, no, don't answer that. Please. I'm
not making any
judgment about the veracity of Eaton's post, I'm simply
saying the way he
said it was obnoxious and stupid. As long as such crap
is sent to the
whole list, and thus my mailbox, I will not just "read it
and forget
it". If someone wants to post insults and personal attacks,
let them do it
offlist, and not waste everyone's else's time and
bandwidth.
Maybe this list
should split into two lists - one for sincere
proto-Beats,
students, and interested folks on ye olde eternal search
for truth, and
one for the jaded, petulant grouches and their
apologists, who
seem to think they already have a lock on truth,
beentheredonethat,
yadayadayada, "claptrap from a youngster", indeed,
can't ya just see
some old Dickensian blowhard character slumped in his
armchair saying
that? Needs a "harrumph" at the end, though. And maybe a
wet hacking
cough.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
J.Scott Holland.
ky.
dreaming of
oatmeal.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Claptrap-- ? or !
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
"what is the
work? to ease the suffering. all else drunken dumbshow"
AG
please, everyone,
do we have to continually split off into name calling and
petulance (not
just you, jeffrey).
we're all here
because we have an interest in things and people beat. but
that doesn't mean
that we are all in synch, age or attitude wise.
mc
Jeffrey Scott
Holland wrote:(snipped)
> Maybe this
list should split into two lists - one for sincere
> proto-Beats,
students, and interested folks on ye olde eternal search
> for truth,
and one for the jaded, petulant grouches and their
> apologists,
who seem to think they already have a lock on truth,
>
beentheredonethat, yadayadayada, "claptrap from a youngster", indeed,
> can't ya
just see some old Dickensian blowhard character slumped in his
> armchair
saying that? Needs a "harrumph" at the end, though. And maybe a
> wet hacking
cough.
>
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> J.Scott
Holland. ky.
> dreaming of
oatmeal.
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:23:36 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Claptrap-- ? or ! -ps
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
or knowledge.
we all bring
something here to the table. just wish we could sit down and
really enjoy the
potluck.
mc
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From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Nice try
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Damn. I have
again failed to secure a gig playing solo guitar
at KEROUAC
JACK'S, a restaurant here in Chicago. They said my
demo tape was
very nice, but they're looking for a funk/jazz
group nowadays.
Oh well.
-Hasbrouck
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:52:49 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: new reading venue
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
just found out
that there is a coffee shop already in montpelier. for
the veggie
gourmets, you may have heard of 'horn of the moon' cafe; on
monday nights
there are spoken word and music : my first booking is for
march 2.
waaahooo
mc
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:50:02 +0100
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From: Nicolai Pharao
<nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: One
(was: the WSB-Korzybski connection)
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Yes Jeff the
arbitrary meaning of a sign is true (which is why
Ein may very well
mean the same as One being basically
different
representations of ther same morpheme)
But it becomes
difficult to explain what 1 is if the only
medium is
language, which is what I think was WSB's point:
that language
inhibits us from fully understanding the world
and in fact
limits our ability to develop new concepts. Can we
think without
language ?
Is 1 the opposite
of many or the opposite of nothing ?
And explaining 1
as a number which represents perfect
singularity seems
similar to the explanation of 'blue' as a
color that is
blue, not much of a clarification to be sure.
Nicolai Pharao
nicpha@cphling.dk
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: shit
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
in the midst of
trying to up date my private email to create list for
sending poetry
not beat to the list, i cleared out my entire address
book.
i'm going mad -
this is my connection to the world right now. shit.
please, everyone
who corresponds with me, send me a private note, test,
will do fine, so
i can get you all back.
and some who have
left list are gone forever.
it's been a bitch
of a week; i've lost friends who have lost their
minds, i'm all
torn up.
this is sincere,
please help
mc
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Claptrap-- ? or !
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>V.J. Eaton
wrote:
>>
>> Claptrap
from a youngster.
>
J.Scott Holland
wrote:
>=== what
makes people like this join a Beat Generation list? What do
>they want?
What are they after? What purpose do they imagine that
>statements
like this one serve? Crazy, Man, Crazy. If Kerouac himself
>posted to
this list he'd be ridiculed and picked apart and insulted.
Possibly...
Steam of
consciousness ? From the heart ? Feel it and write it ?
True ? Eaton
seems to think it is.
True to you?
Obviosly not.
Sometimes the
truth is uncomfortable. Read it and forget it.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:57:48 -0800
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From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: One
(was: the WSB-Korzybski connection)
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
It's at least
impressive that this argument about "one" is
following exactly
the course of the major philosophical argument
of modern western
culture. As I understood it when I
studied this
stuff years ago,
there was a two-century-or-so long flame war
between the
contintental Rationalists (mainly Descartes, Spinoza
and Leibniz) and
the British Empiricists (mainly Locke, Berkeley
and Hume) that
centered on the question of what can be known
with
certainty. The opening argument in this
thread was
Descartes
"Meditations" in which he stated that the one
rockbottom
certainty was "I think therefore I am", and then
he went a little
bit further out on a limb by proving that
God exists. His proof didn't hold up (which is not to
say, of course,
that anybody proved that God *didn't* exist
either) -- but in
any case after many many more treatises
were written the
argument settled on the question: can't
we at least say
that we understand mathematical concepts --
theoretical
concepts, like "one" -- with certainty?
As I remember it,
Immanuel Kant is generally said to have
come up with the
best answer to this question, and it's
something along
the lines of "sort of." In a
way this
whole argument
spelled the death of the rationalistic
approach to
philosophy, giving way to the more creative
and speculative
fields of Existential philosophy, Freudian
psychology,
cognitive science, analytic (language-oriented)
philosophy, etc.
I could discuss
this stuff all day, but I suppose in the
interests of
keeping this a Beat list it might be a good
idea for anybody
who wants to know whether the concept
"one"
can be understood should read Immanuel Kant's
"Critique of
Pure Reason" for the long version of the
answer. And I guess we really ought to get back to
talking about
beat writing.
---------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher =
brooklyn@netcom.com
|
|
|
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
|
*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*
|
|
|
| "Nothing
is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |
| -- Joni
Mitchell |
---------------------------------------------------------
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Claptrap AND something else
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>From
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08:07:52 1998
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>Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:19:28 +0100
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
>Subject: Re: Claptrap-- ? or !
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>jo grant
wrote:
>
>>
>>
Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable. Read it and forget it.
>
>
>=== What is
truth? On second thought, no, don't answer that. Please.
I'm
>not making
any judgment about the veracity of Eaton's post, I'm simply
>saying the
way he said it was obnoxious and stupid. As long as such
crap
>is sent to
the whole list, and thus my mailbox, I will not just "read
it
>and forget
it". If someone wants to post insults and personal attacks,
>let them do
it offlist, and not waste everyone's else's time and
>bandwidth.
>
>Maybe this
list should split into two lists - one for sincere
>proto-Beats,
students, and interested folks on ye olde eternal search
>for truth,
and one for the jaded, petulant grouches and their
>apologists,
who seem to think they already have a lock on truth,
>beentheredonethat,
yadayadayada, "claptrap from a youngster", indeed,
>can't ya just
see some old Dickensian blowhard character slumped in his
>armchair
saying that? Needs a "harrumph" at the end, though. And maybe
a
>wet hacking
cough.
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>J.Scott
Holland. ky.
>dreaming of
oatmeal.
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
*julian laughs in
little giggles...*
i like this
guy...
anyway...
I have
a few beat questions....
I. Kicks Joy Darkness
a> What is the
source of the title...? Pardn my naiveity but i honestly
don't know....
b> Kerouac
speaks of Sangsara...what is that?
c> On track
five, hunter s. thompson reads a poem of jack's...and the
last line says
something in latin...
"ad
aspera..." something something something...I don't have the text
with me right
now...
Those of you who do have it...do you know what
it means?...
d> and
finally...
Do you think Jack would have approved of this
rendition of his
poetry?...i
mean...i found very little jazz involved...don't get me
wrong i love the
cd...but there's a lot of...well...noise going on in
the background of
some of them....and whereas he probably wouldn't
mind...some
artists even changed his words around....
sorry if this is too much to ask replies to at
once...
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private,
Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:00:44 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: beat dad(rising from the wreckage of my
disk
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
my father's eyes
(first draft)
received in mail
today
photos of my
father:
taken by his
present wife
down in VA
hospice, florida
empty eyed, he
stares
restrained and
wheel chair bound
into the camera's
lens
impersonally.
my father's eyes are so vacant-
beyond 'light's
on nobody home'
just a feeble
naked porch light
slowly burning
out
this is my
childhood all over again-
when my father
was mostly vacant.
coming home long
past dinner time
his smoky whiskey
smells
as frightening as
my mother's rage
to which he
turned his back and left-
vacant once
again.
my father was a
tin man,
traveling
salesman,a con,
who refused to be
a nine to fiver
choosing a living
on the road
to keep him
family-free.
this man, who
picked me up from bus
circa '68
having, like him,
fled family
only to return to
house
and told me
confidentially,
'if i had it all
to do over, i wouldn't'
(annihilating
me.)
the last time i
saw my father
we fought - over
what, i can't recall-
i locked myself
up in my truck
but lacking
ignition keys,
was stuck,
locked up, unable
to leave.
he cried and
begged forgiveness, and
as i unlocked the
door,
crawling in
he sprawled all
over me,
crying and
begging ,
in such a way,
that
brought further
distance yet.
estranged these
past four years
i moved up
country,
he moved down-
thinking always
there would be time
for love
unencumbered,
unhinged from
childhood pain-
and of course
there never was.
now he stares out
at no one
in this photo
sent to me
by his current
wife,
who wrote and
asked
didn't i know
he carried always
in his billfold
pictures of mom
and me?
my answer, a
sigh, a no,
he told so little
to me
and now so little
is left,
leaving
only his vacant
stare,
no connection,
just hollow pain
and again the
wish to flee
(c) 2/4/98
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: WSB-Huncke connection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Marie, thanks for
posting this; it seems to me to clearly show that WSB
didn't do the
junk with Huncke - Huncke is suspicious of WSB and turns
down his offer to
buy WSB's syrettes. "a few days later, Burroughs used
one of the
syrettes and had his first experience with junk." Since
Huncke is still
suspicious of him, surely he wasn't around and surely
Morgan would have
mentioned it.
That, I thought,
was that.... until I just happened to be looking at the
picture of Huncke
in the book and the caption describes him as "one of
the Times Square
hustlers who introduced Burroughs to drugs"! So what
the heck?!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeff Holland KY
arf arf arf
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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From: Jessica L Vanslooten <vansljl@MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>
Subject: beats and post/modernism
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
hi all! i too
find the placement of the beats within the
modernism/postmodernism
continuum interesting... i think some of the major
tenets of
modernism are stream of consciousness style (like woolf and
joyce) along with
a concern of capturing certain moments or moods or
things. woolf's
language attempts to capture the psychological progression
of time...i'm
thinking of a scene in *to the lighthouse* where woolf
captures a dinner
party, the psychological moments of the participants and
how as soon as we
move out of the moment it's in the past. and then you
have people like
william carlos williams who argues for "no ideas but in
things..."
i, too, find postmodernism
difficult to pin down...but it seems to me the
focus is on the
fragmentary nature of life, how things can be pulled
apart, how our
lives are increasingly defined by multiple sources and
lacking a stable
center...and one thing particularly interesting is the
way postmodern
fiction tries to break down boundaries and genres, how it
comments on its
own fictionality...
seems to me like
some of the things the modernists were doing verged on
postmodernism but
maybe because they wrote before the world wars, they
still had a
stable world view?!? and i think kerouac and company
definately took
some of the modernist ideas and pushed them into
postmodern
territory--kerouac's style works against given genres
and he focuses on
the immediacy of moments (i think of that great
description of
riding in the back of the pickup truck in *on the
road*) and also
interweaves religions...then again sometimes i think these
terms are so
random and arbitrary... the irony of categorizing something
as postmodern is
that postmodernism itself would argue against one stable
category.
--jessica
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:52:26 +0100
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Claptrap-- ? or !
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
jo grant wrote:
> Is "Eat
me motherfucker" a Beat term?
=== Any cussin'
is a Beat term.
=-=-=-=
JSH
eatin'
snow
=-=-=-=
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:10:28 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Beats and Post/Modernism
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Zucchini4@AOL.COM
wrote:
>
> hey
everybody. SO today, I took up (again)
what is turning out to be my
> eternal
quest for the meaning of "post modernism"-- seems no matter how much
I
> read, it
just gets more confusing....And then I decided to start w/ modernism,
> which was
worse. The article I was reading mentioned every type of literature
> created in
the first half of this century, and I had thought it was more of a
> philosophy
than a time period, even though the two are closely linked.
>
> Anyway- one
of the major characteristics of modernism, in fact, the first one
> listed, is
"stream of conciousness" writing. And of course, no mention of
> Keroauc or
any other Beat-type, when it always seemed to me that they had
> played a big
part in developing this as a technique.
>
> So I'm
basicly asking for any input/ideas about modernism or postmodernism in
> general, and
how the beats relate to either of these topics. I'm a little
> lost, and I
thought, who better to ask? :)
>
> --Stephanie
actually, i am no
expert on the subject, but a while ago i attended a
short feminist
lecture about post-modernism (feminists claim that there
is a close
connection between the two). the literature that was
suggested was the
following:
(i don't know the
names of most of the books, but i guess that won't be
a problem)
Frederick Jameson
- Postmodern
Linda Hutchin
Bryan McHalle
Cvetan Todorov (a
Bulgarian author, don't know if this is the correct
spelling) -
Fantastic
the difference,
as i gathered was in this:
realism tries to
reflect reality; modernism believes that you can't know
the world from
reality, so it turns to the psyche and constructs a new
world in the
mind. the questions modernism poses are what is the world
like and how we
learn about it. postmodernism asks which world this is.
it introduces the
term 'possible worlds' (which has a lot to do with
modern physics -
schrodinger's cat for example), as this is only one of
them. due to
this, the reader starts playing a more significant role as
he is part of the
creation as well. there is also the weakening of the
subject included
in writing.
i think that
umberto ecco wrote on the subject as well.
not very much,
but i hope the books will help.
ksenija
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:55:11 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Mathematics is
unthinkable without either/or logic.
actually, not
quite. when classical mathematics started to fall apart at
the beginning of
the century (contradictions in the set theory) among
the new
approaches that emerged was intuitionism (founded by brower).
this theory
doesn't allow proofs starting with "assume that it is not
so", because
there aren't just two possibilities: either is or is not.
there are many
other possibilities as well. you prove that such and such
numeb exists only
if you construct it.
another example
is fuzzy logic.
not even to
mention the examples physics has to offer.
ksenija
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:56:28 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: WSB-Huncke connection
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
go figger. but
i'd rather trust archives of wsb over any foto caption.
mc
Jeffrey Scott
Holland wrote:
> Marie,
thanks for posting this; it seems to me to clearly show that WSB
> didn't do
the junk with Huncke - Huncke is suspicious of WSB and turns
> down his
offer to buy WSB's syrettes. "a few days later, Burroughs used
> one of the
syrettes and had his first experience with junk." Since
> Huncke is
still suspicious of him, surely he wasn't around and surely
> Morgan would
have mentioned it.
>
> That, I
thought, was that.... until I just happened to be looking at the
> picture of
Huncke in the book and the caption describes him as "one of
> the Times
Square hustlers who introduced Burroughs to drugs"! So what
> the heck?!
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Jeff Holland
KY arf arf arf
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:43:35 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art
language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: A Thoughtful Pause
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
dawn
try el
chapultapec, right off larimer, towards the railroad tracks, the
boys usta hang
there, too
denver's one of
the most beautiful places on the planet
tkc
Dawn Zarubnicky
wrote:
>
..snip...
>
> Regarding
James Baldwin. According to Dan
Wakefield's _New York in the
> 1950's_
Baldwin was not very fond of the beats...I don't have that text in
> front of me
either but I will post a quote on that tomorrow..
malcom x's
autobiography gives some descriptions of harlem in the 40s
that paralell
some of the beat writings
> I'm living
in Denver these days so I think tonight I'll take a drive to
> My Brother's
Bar and have a drink with the ghost of Neal Cassady...
>
> Respectfully
Melancholy,
>
> Dawn
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:54:38 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: shit
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
hey girl, this is
terrible - how'd it happen????
-----Original
Message-----
From: Marie
Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday,
February 04, 1998 11:22 AM
Subject: shit
>in the midst
of trying to up date my private email to create list for
>sending
poetry not beat to the list, i cleared out my entire address
>book.
>i'm going mad
- this is my connection to the world right now. shit.
>please,
everyone who corresponds with me, send me a private note, test,
>will do fine,
so i can get you all back.
>and some who
have left list are gone forever.
>it's been a
bitch of a week; i've lost friends who have lost their
>minds, i'm
all torn up.
>this is
sincere, please help
>mc
>
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:54:56 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: An anniversary eulogy (fwd)
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
thanks, levi, for
bringing our attention back to one of the big reasons we all
are here.
sad indeed.
mc
Levi Asher wrote:
> Did anybody
remember today's sad anniversary?
>
> I didn't
remember myself, but John Cassady reminded
> me with this
note (he sent it to a few friends and
> said I could
post it here). Neal Cassady died
> in Mexico
Feb 4 1968.
>
> > A sad
anniversary, but one worth noting, I think. 30 years ago today, Pop's
> > demise
in Mexico. I'll never forget sitting at the dining room table at the
> > house
on Bancroft when the phone rang that morning. It was JB from San
> > Miguel
de Allende telling my mother the news. Janice Brown was presumably
> > the
last American to see Neal alive, and she
said she would ship his ashes
> > home.
> >
> > My
mother was in shock; ashen faced and stoic, but apparently not too
> >
surprised, as she delivered the news. My sisters cried; I felt kind of numb
> > and
vaguely uncomfortable. On one hand I was relieved for him, he had been
> > in such
torment the last few years. On the other hand I felt cheated that I
> > had not
been able to say goodbye, or able to really connect with him
> >
recently. Anyone who has lost a parent knows the feeling. I had to get out
> > of the
house, this place or grief and mourning.
> >
> > I went
up into the mountains above Los Gatos, with several of my closest
> >
buddies, to a favorite redwood grove on some property that my friend's
> > father
owned. I mentioned the news to my comrades in the car, and they
> > seemed
more blown away than I was, looking at me sideways for reaction
> >
throughout the day. We drank beer and popped empty cans off a fence with a
> > 22 LR
bolt-action rifle, as 16-year-olds are wont to do when in the woods,
> > and
reflected on this amazing man.
> >
> > The
last time I saw him, he said, "Son, don't fret." And I replied,
"don't
> > YOU
fret," and meant it. But I think he took my tone the wrong way, and he
> > looked
hurt and sad as he walked away, with a recently familiar furrowed
> > brow of
pain and guilt on his face. A haunting memory, after what was to
> >
happened. Today, as I did that day thirty years ago, I wonder, "Dad, what
> > were
you going through that night? What demons possessed your mind and what
> > were
your last thoughts." I guess we'll never know. Although I'm convinced
> > that
his death was an accident on that particular night, he had been working
> > on
killing himself indirectly for decades. He was adamant in his beliefs
> >
regarding suicide, but he couldn't cheat fate forever. The party was over,
> > he was
done.
> >
> > -- John
Cassady, Feb 4 1998
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------
> | Levi Asher
= brooklyn@netcom.com
|
> |
|
> | Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
> | (the beat literature web site) |
> |
|
> | "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
> | (a real book, like on paper) |
> | also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
> |
|
> |
*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*
|
> |
|
> |
"Nothing is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |
> | -- Joni
Mitchell |
>
---------------------------------------------------------
To: "BEAT-L:
Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo
Rasa <rinaldo@gpnet.it>
Subject: Re: shit
Cc:
Bcc: Sherri
<love_singing@email.msn.com>
X-Attachments:
In-Reply-To:
<0e9792056200428UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>
References:
Sherri scrive:
>hey girl,
this is terrible - how'd it happen????
Sherri maybe you notice that Rudyard Kipling loved
Vermont,
birthplace of the 'Jungle Books'...
cari saluti
dall'Italia,
Rinaldo.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
next Millenium
1) the VW loves
the Beatles and the Beetles
VolksWagen promo.
gone Millenium:
2) "After
1957 ON THE ROAD sold a trillion levis and a million expresso
coffee machines,
and also sent countless kids out on the road." -
William S. Burroughs
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correction. due
to a technical error, ten lines of the above
text are missing.
I apologize for the error.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path:
<owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:10:29 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Pater Noster
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I accidently erased that wonderful version of t