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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:15:09 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [too much coffee]
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i must say
that i can identify with the title of your message; i've been
having the
same problem lately.
> I
think this all ties into the feeling of being alive that I love to
> talk
about.
i may be
wrong, but i think that being alive is something that you
should
experience more and talk about less.
Being real to yourself, but this is very
>
dangerous because it opens you up. Makes you vulnerable. What do you
> think?
there is
nothing wrong with being vulnerable. i mean, you do get hurt,
but at
least you are what you are; you are honest to yourself, and you
know that
you are alive. if it opens you up, it opens you up to
experience.
and, as i understood, that's what you want, isn't it?
>
Experiences like the ones I have been having lately makes you stop and
> think.
don't stop.
don't think. just do it. use it: write!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:27:46 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Fwd: spicy beef burritos]
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I pondered
the expression "Life is
> what
you make it". Which for the most part I agree, but at the same time
> I
believe you are what life makes you. There are events that occur that
> are
beyond you control and as you deal with the situation you grow as a
>
person.
only at the
conscious level; things, if you noticed, always happen for a
reason. you
may call it destiny if you please, but you may also ascribe
it to
yourself. it is well known that if your attitude towards life is
positive,
so will be the things happening to you. and vice versa. life
IS what you
make of it.
Are you a mass of chemical reactions,
chromosomes, and
>
nuerotransmitters? That's a cold fact I can't bring myself to believe,
> of
course that is a part of who we are like it or not, but I like to
> think
that we play at least a small part in the shaping of our
>
personalities. I would have to describe the human animal as mystical,
> trying
not to sound to corny, a mixture of all these chemicals firing
> and
flowing and an unexplainable drive and consciousness.
>
that's
what, more or less, modern physics says. i suggest that you find
and read
'the dancing wu-li masters' (i think i spelled it right) by
gary zukav
(not sure about the first name).
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:32:01 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: [too much coffee]
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and
besides, the people who
> are
unhappy, perhaps they would not be this way if not for the rest of society
> around
them....
do you
really think so?
this
>
"left out" feeling causes them to have a sense of brooding depression
and
>
loneliness they "may or may not" otherwise feel if love and
relationships did
> not
play such a huge, idealistic or otherwise, role in our society...
>
but, what
if not love? not in the narrowest, romantic sense. from a
certain
point of view, everything can be considered love.
perhaps if
we were all to give in to our
>
innermost desires, this world would be even more fucked up than it is
>
already.....
????
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:36:29 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: I apologize
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>
perhaps it is something explainable.......who are we to suggest we know all
> the
answers concerning our drives and consciousnesses?
as i look
at it, there is no right answer to any question. even
mathematics
has doubts about things that seem obvious. so, we can create
a theory,
about our consciousness, or anything else for that matter, and
if it works
(if it's coherent, as scientists say) it is good enough.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 15:59:41 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac pieces?
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At 12:10 PM
12/27/97 EST, john j dorfner wrote:
>the two
pieces that you were asking about are included
>in
Kerouac's "Good Blonde & Others"...
Thanx, one
of the books that are on loan. . .
Looked
familiar, but couldn't place them.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:12:34 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: The Politically correct days of Christmas
(fwd)
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I thought
someone might get a chuckle out of
this. . .
>----------
Forwarded message ----------
>Date:
Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:10:12 -0500 (EST)
>To: Michael
Cakebread <cake0570@mach1.wlu.ca>
>Subject:
The Politically correct days of Christmas (fwd)
>The
"Politically Correct" Days of Christmas...
>----------------------------------------------
>On the
12th day of the Eurocentrically imposed
>midwinter
festival, my Significant Other in a
>consenting
adult, monogamous relationship gave to
>me:
>
>TWELVE
males reclaiming their inner warrior
>through
ritual drumming,
>ELEVEN
pipers piping (plus the 18-member pit orchestra
>made up
of members in good standing of the Musicians
>Equity
Union as called for in their union contract
>even
though they will not be asked to play a note),
>TEN
melanin deprived testosterone-poisoned scions
>of the
patriarchal ruling class system leaping,
>NINE
persons engaged in rhythmic self-expression,
>EIGHT
economically disadvantaged female persons stealing >milk-products
from
enslaved Bovine-Americans,
>SEVEN
endangered swans swimming on federally
>protected
wetlands,
>SIX
enslaved Fowl-Americans producing stolen
>non-human
animal products,
>FIVE
golden symbols of culturally sanctioned enforced
>domestic
incarceration,
>(NOTE:
after members of the Animal Liberation Front
>threatened
to throw red paint at my computer, the
>calling
birds, French hens and partridge have been
>reintroduced
to their native habitat. To avoid further
>Animal-American
enslavement, the remaining gift
>package
has been revised.)
>FOUR
hours of recorded whale songs
>THREE
deconstructionist poets
>TWO
Sierra Club calendars printed on recycled processed
>tree
carcasses
>and...
>ONE
Spotted Owl activist chained to an old-growth pear
>tree.
>Merry
Christmas Happy Chanukah. Good Kwanzaa.
>Blessed
Yule. Oh, heck! Happy Holidays!!!!
(unless
>otherwise
prohibited by law) *
>
>*Unless,
of course, you are suffering from Seasonally
>Affected
Disorder (SAD). If this be the case, please
>substitute
this gratuitous call for celebration with
>suggestion
that you have a thoroughly adequate day.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:33:41 PST
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHERRI!
Content-Type:
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BULLETIN:
We are
planning to sing the first round of Happy Birthdays to Sherri at
Tosca's,
across the street from City Lights this evening at 8:00 p.m.
After
that you
might find us at City Lights or Vesuvios, eating Chinese food,
roaming
about in the neighborhood, then we are off to dance somewhere.
Sweet
marie will
be there, Ann Marie (Anne Murphy) will be there, James
Stauffer
and myself
and any one of you who can join us. We hope some of you can
make it.
Sorry to be so late.
Happy
Birthday Sherri!!
leon
______________________________________________________
Get Your
Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:10:13 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHERRI!
In-Reply-To:
<19971227213342.11972.qmail@hotmail.com>
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If you pop
across the street to Prairie Lights tell Paul Joe and Shar Grant
send him
our best.
How
wonderful that you folks are in Iowa City. Wish I were able to drive
over from
Madison.
j grant
>BULLETIN:
>
>We are
planning to sing the first round of Happy Birthdays to Sherri at
>Tosca's,
across the street from City Lights this evening at 8:00 p.m.
>After
that you might find us at City Lights or Vesuvios, eating Chinese food,
>roaming
about in the neighborhood, then we are off to dance somewhere.
>Sweet
marie will be there, Ann Marie (Anne Murphy) will be there, James
>Stauffer
and myself and any one of you who can join us. We hope some of
>you can
>make
it. Sorry to be so late.
>
>Happy
Birthday Sherri!!
>
>leon
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:19:37 -0800
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From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHERRI!
Joe, we're
in San Francisco. Leon said City Lights
Books. any of you Bay
Area beats
who would like to meet Marie whois visiting us or just want an
excuse to
party and touch a couple of Beat haunts, please join us. we'll
meet at
Cafe Tosca for a drink, then hang at Vesuvio, then if we're hungry
probably
grab some cheap pasta at Pasta Pomodoro, then off to find some
dancing (will
be checking the Guardian this afternoon, suggestions welcome).
please
e-mail me if you'll be joining us so we'll know to hang in one place
til you get
there.
and to
everyone - hope you had a wonderful holiday and a most beatific New
Year to you
all.
ciao,
sherri
-----Original
Message-----
From: jo
grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Saturday, December 27, 1997 2:07 PM
Subject:
Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHERRI!
>If you
pop across the street to Prairie Lights tell Paul Joe and Shar Grant
>send
him our best.
>
>How
wonderful that you folks are in Iowa City. Wish I were able to drive
>over
from Madison.
>
>j grant
>
>
>>BULLETIN:
>>
>>We
are planning to sing the first round of Happy Birthdays to Sherri at
>>Tosca's,
across the street from City Lights this evening at 8:00 p.m.
>>After
that you might find us at City Lights or Vesuvios, eating Chinese
food,
>>roaming
about in the neighborhood, then we are off to dance somewhere.
>>Sweet
marie will be there, Ann Marie (Anne Murphy) will be there, James
>>Stauffer
and myself and any one of you who can join us. We hope some of
>>you
can
>>make
it. Sorry to be so late.
>>
>>Happy
Birthday Sherri!!
>>
>>leon
>
>
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
>
http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:50:23 -0800
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From: "David C. Breithaupt"
<moondog@WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: twister (fwd)
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----------
Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed,
24 Dec 1997 10:47:18 -0800
From: Kesey
and/or Babbs <kenk@efn.org>
To:
"David C. Breithaupt" <moondog@well.com>
Subject:
Re: twister
It's two
days before Christmas
And all
through the hoose
Everything's
stirring
Including
the moose.
The
chocolate bubbling
On the
stove over there
Soon to be
applied
To the
fattening eclair.
Remember
this phrase
And attempt
to fly it:
Eat drink and
make merry
For
tomorrow you may diet.
The elves
jumped for joy
And joy
jumped out the window
Gets too
hot in the kitchen
Plunk yer
butt down in the snow.
There's
nothing every season
You can
think of that's worse
Than guys
like me
Attempting
to make verse.
So just
knock your selfs out
Don't pay
no attention to me
Do whatever
you want
With verve,
grace and excess of glee.
Happy
Holidays and bodacious New Year.
k&k
http://www.intrepidtrips.com
__________
_/ |
|_ FURTHER _|
O O
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:06:23 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SGI.3.96.971227210531.18998A-100000@komma.fddi2.fu-be
rlin.de>
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At 21.25
27/12/97 +0100, Florian Cramer wrote:
>Dear
all,
>
>my
apologies if my request sounds naive, since I am not really familiar
>with
the beat poetry tradition. I am in the midst of writing an M.A.
>thesis
about combinatory poetry from the 17th to the 20th century, and it
>took me
long until I stumbled over information that Brion Gysin wrote
>"permutation
poems" around 1960. This is highly interesting for me, since
>it was
the same time when Raymond Queneau wrote his permuting "100.000
>Billion
Poems" and when the information theorist Abraham A. Moles
>published
his "Manifesto of Permutation Art". You might also be interested
>to hear
that the "fold-in" method was prototyped in a novel by Marc
>Saporta
which appeared in the early 1960s. It seems like the mutual
>influences
on the development of combinatory/permutational literature in
>early
1960s France (where I guess Gysin was living at that time) still
>needs
to be researched, in case I'm not telling you old stories here.
>
>I took
me quite long to find out about Gysin's "permutation poems" since
>Gysin
and Burroughs are not quite considered high cultural/canonical
>writers
in European academia, so that even such comprehensive accounts of
>permutational
poetry as Ulrich Ernst's "Permutation als Prinzip in der
>Lyrik"
("Permutation as a principle in poetry", published in: Poetica,
>no.24,
1992) don't mention Gysin's experiments.
>
>Hence
my question: Are Gysin's "permutation poems" published in books? Are
>there
any essays or commentaries about them? In the Web, I found
>information
that Gysin created these poems with the help of a computer;
>however,
the Web page didn't mention the source of this information, so
>I'm a
bit suspicious. Did Gysin make any statements about his
>permutational
poetry in interviews? ... It seems really difficult
>researching
this, since most of Gysin's books are small press and out of
>print,
and I guess that the majority of Gysin criticism has been published
>in the
underground press.
>
>Any
help in this matter is really appreciated!
>
>Florian
>
dear
Florian.
u are right
Brion Gysin really made use of the computer
with the
help of Ian Sommerville, the performance
"The Permuted Poems of Bryon Gysin" was aired by the
BBC but the audience rate was very low (the 2th worst score in
the history of the BBC).
[Nothing Here Now But The Recordings (1959-1980)
LP IR 0016 ''Industrial Records'' Rough Trade,
137 Blenheim Crescent, London W11, England.]
& it's possible that some tapes are in the
"Burroughs Communication Center" at Lawrence,Kansas.
i hope this help & other friends maybe can add
further info,
r.
---
Brion Gysin interviewed:
Devo confessare che i documenti piu' avventurosi sono stati
realizzati con vetusti Revere e con scatoline giapponesi da
100 $ con cui facevamo gli stupidi, William, Ian Sommerville
ed io. Affrofittai delle sovvenzioni BBC per realizzare con
loro una serie di poesie sonore. Tecnicamente non si discutono
,certo. In principio m'era parso di capire che avrei avuto a
disposizione una settimana; salto' fuori poi che erano tre
giorni soltanto, cosi' nella fretta alla fine cominciai a
spezzettare un testo parlato- mi pare fosse la spiegazione di
come funziona il lavoro in cut-up, Cut-ups Self Explained- e
lo feci passare parecchie volte nella strumentazione elettronica.
Approdai sul nastro a parole del tutto nuove, mai pronunciate
scientemente da me e da altri. L'esperimento fu subito ritirato
perche'... il tempo era finito e Loro erano un po' alterati,
anzi decisamente malpresi per i risultati che saltavano fuori
dagli altoparlanti; non furono poco contenti di darci un taglio.
"Beh, che si aspettavano? Un coro di cherubini con le imbeccate
sulla Borsa?"--William Burroughs.
"The Permutated Poems of Brion Gysin" (riversato al computer da
Ian Sommerville) fu trasmesso dalla BBC, per la produzione di
Douglas Cleverson.(Il secondo peggior indice di gradimento fatto
registrare). sono reperibili alcuni dei primi esperimenti di
Cut-Up su nastro: Nothing Here Now But The Recordings (1959-1980)
LP IR 0016 reperibile nel catalogo ''Industrial Records'' Rough
Trade, 137 Blenheim Crescent, London W11, England.
---
saluti
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:35:49 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: 11 23 magic numbers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971226111445.36916C-100000@srv1.freenet.calg
ary.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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MagenDror@aol.com writes:
>>i ask you, for my vanity, if the 23
>Both, I think. I came across numerous 23 synchronicities before being made
>aware of the Burroughs connexion, so the fact that WSB was also aware of
>these is just further synchronicity. Eleven . . . also a prime number, but
>not as interesting from a kabbalistic perspective as 23. And see Psalm 23 .
Dear Luther and others,
the William S. Burrough's interest for the number 23
as prime number is anticipated by the italian futuristic
performer Filippo Tommaso Marinetti (1876-1944). Marinetti
has for him the magic numer 11 (eleven).
saluti,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:08:02 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHERRI!
In-Reply-To: <04e2e0721221bc7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>
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>Joe, we're in San Francisco.
Of course. I saw City Lights, but was thinking Prairie Lights. Got carried
away.
Happy everything out there.
j grant
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:25:25 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: ]
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In a message dated 97-12-27 13:22:14 EST, you write:
<< hey...as Mark Twain said..."never trust a man that can't spell a word 3
ways..."
spelling is for editors...not for writers.
>>
very very true......point taken......
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:34:10 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: [too much coffee]
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In a message dated 97-12-27 15:39:55 EST, you write:
<< and besides, the people who
> are unhappy, perhaps they would not be this way if not for the rest of
society
> around them....
do you really think so?
~~~it's only a theory....not one i particularly hold too much stock in, but
nonetheless, a suggestion i have considered....i have seen a lot of people who
react according to the rest of the pack, whether it be with them or against
them....and i have seen friends and family who become seriously ill as a
result of wanting too hard to be accepted by a society they believe has set
standards of what a person should be.....but by no means would i generalize
this statement for everyone....
this
> "left out" feeling causes them to have a sense of brooding depression and
> loneliness they "may or may not" otherwise feel if love and relationships
did
> not play such a huge, idealistic or otherwise, role in our society...
>
but, what if not love? not in the narrowest, romantic sense. from a
certain point of view, everything can be considered love.
~~~from a certain point of view.....sorta like the statement i suppose, "some
things done out of love are beyond good and evil".....but if you can say that
everything can be considered love from one perspective, you could easily turn
it around, and say everything is done out of selfishness
perhaps if we were all to give in to our
> innermost desires, this world would be even more fucked up than it is
> already.....
????
~~~meaning, if we stopped limiting ourselves.....(which some, not all of us
do)....stop checking out innermost selves at the door, in the name or morality
or all else, perhaps, perhaps our society or our world would be more
anarchist...and not necessarily in a political or negative fashion....perhaps
more love would be shown, you know the facade(if it exists) of machoism would
be let down...more emotions could be revealed.....or perhaps we would have a
million more neal cassadys in the world....or perhaps not....you never
know.....if every man and woman on this planet for one day, unlocked these
man-made doors constructed by physical boundaries, religion, morality,
etc......and just went above it all, transcendance, whatever you would like to
call it......and just did absolutely what they wanted to, then we would have a
truly curious and mysterious and beautifully odd world.....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:54:04 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: a poem by Gary Snyder.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.96.971227210531.18998A-100000@komma.fddi2.fu-be
rlin.de>
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How Poetry Comes to Me by Gary Snyder
It comes blundering over the
Boulders at night, it stays
Frightened outside the
Range of my campfire
I go to meet it at the
Edge of the light
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:55:27 -0600
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From: Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: New Kerouac Translations
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Kerouac's reputation and acceptance as an important writer continues to
spread around the world. He is now been translated into two additional
languages - Turkish and Hebrew.
The books are:
Yolda (On The Road) published in Istanbul by Kiyi
ha-Hatranim (The Subterraneans) published in Tel Aviv by Geranim
Irving Leif
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 05:38:49 -0500
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From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Personal to Michael Nally
In-Reply-To: <34A5D641.45F5@eunet.yu>
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Michael,
I received your post about "Sunlight Dies With The Roses" but my mail to
you is bouncing. Any ideas?
Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:56:54 -0700
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From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Satori in Phoenix
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This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie
Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in
Phoenix.
OR
It's just a way of saying hello to friends around here and there.
The flight here i was reading Maggie C. but two rows back some young kid
was reading the compleat works of Rimbaud and coincidentally or not the
guy sitting next to him went into some sort of overdose coma and came
out to try and light a cigarette (which i could definitely relate to)
and was stopped and then passed out and then the call for medical folks
and gadgets and junk connected to him which pretty much meant that the
rest of us were not only excluded from our nicotine doses but also had
to wait extra extra long to get our caffeine infusions. But it was a
rather decent distraction.
So ---- sitting in Mesa (not actually IN Phoenix --- but close to it)
and I finally says to myself i need an infusion of Beat-L mania and so
while listening to Clapton UnPlugged nobody knows you when you're down
and out (in Paris or London or Phoenix) I hit a few buttons and must've
hit Some of the right ones cuz i'm here again ((((at least i think i
am)))))
so did i miss anything while i was incommunicado?
david rhaesa (race)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:04:53 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: New Kerouac Translations
In-Reply-To: <199712282055.OAA14973@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
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Buona giornata a tutti,
at the right moment, in Italy is out (september 97)
an abridged edition of "Jack Kerouac-Selected Letters 1040-1959)"
(c) 1995 the Estate of stella Kerouac, John Sampas,
Literary Representative. Notes copyright (c) Ann Charters,1995
the italian named Jack Kerouac "Letter dalla Beat Generation",
translated by Silvia Piraccini,
published by Arnoldo Mondadori Editore S.p.A. Milano
(a Silvio Berlusconi's publishing house).
Luckily the book is a paperback edition (lire italiane 9000
value approximately 3 $).
Info on Internet
http://www.mondadori.com/libri
saluti,
Rinaldo.
--------
At 14.55 28/12/97 -0600, Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:
>Kerouac's reputation and acceptance as an important writer continues to
>spread around the world. He is now been translated into two additional
>languages - Turkish and Hebrew.
>
>The books are:
>
>Yolda (On The Road) published in Istanbul by Kiyi
>
>ha-Hatranim (The Subterraneans) published in Tel Aviv by Geranim
>
>
>Irving Leif
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:12:11 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
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Jim Rhaesa wrote:
>
> This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie
> Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in
> Phoenix.
>
> OR
>
> It's just a way of saying hello to friends around here and there.
>
yes you did, great to hear fromyou, happy monday. I was almost silehnt
patricia
>
> so did i miss anything while i was incommunicado?
>
> david rhaesa (race)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 01:38:29 -0800
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
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> RACE wrote:
>
> This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie
> Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in
> Phoenix.
It has been very quiet here on the beat-l. What did Maggie Cassidy have
to say to you about the peculiarities of existence?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:08:40 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <34A7CBDB.E22@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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patricia wrote:
>Jim Rhaesa wrote:
>>
>> This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie
>> Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in
>> Phoenix.
>>
>> OR
>>
>> It's just a way of saying hello to friends around here and there.
>>
>yes you did, great to hear fromyou, happy monday. I was almost silehnt
>patricia
>>
>> so did i miss anything while i was incommunicado?
>>
>> david rhaesa (race)
>
-
-
-
-
-odetosatori- -yr white pointed shoes-
just now the- -you are eating spaghetti
take away re- in the midnite on the boat
staurant chi- -yr wind yr wind
nese in fron- -the sky u never NEVER u'll see
t of my wind- -an old car
ow has light- -a new car
on red lante- -
rns swaying - -
cuz the wind- -
29 december - -poesy is over for u
after noon m- -
y mind is my- -a prayer
body my brai- -how many diabetics on
n an electri- the autumnal parking lot
c transforme- one hundred!
r blades of - -electric sound in yr
copper wrapp- mind my brother
ed day after- -every day so tiny
day after da- -
y cut! born!- -no one scream
dead! i'm li- -electric stream
stening the - -7 seven days
radio & look- -
ing at the s- -
ky a bit fog- .
gy the-
day is-
hardly-
over t-
he rad-
io tel-
ls who-
i am w-
hooo i-
am -
da-
y -
af-
te-
r -
da-
y -
-
-
-
cos'altro si puo' dire alla fine di una
giornata invernale? le ombre della nott
e stanno gia' avvicinandosi, cos'e' un
satori a parigi, a londra, a phoenix, o
qui a mestre the cyber venicesque other
side of the moon world?
-
-
-
r
i
n
a
l
d
o
-
-
-
beat heart beat heart beat heart beat heart
-
-
-
SCREEEEEEEAMM! ode to-day ODE TO-DAY!
-
-
THE
E L E C T R I C
T R A N S F O R M E R
-
-
-
is well working in the factory
-
-
-
a tribute to d.r.
-
-
-
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:03:42 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
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on a chill wind day,
mourning as a way to weave mortality and time.
i hear rinaldos voice,
beacon to encourage my provincial dance
on
cosmopolition streets.
poems drip from his nose,
odes from his toes,
prose swim in his irises
his tom sawyer voice
yelling come jump in the river
listen to this.
tribute to rinaldo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:27:05 PST
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From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: hello from california
Content-Type: text/plain
hey there all beat-ls
i haven't had the time to write much, but would like to tell you all
happy new year and a damned fine good one it should all be! leon has
been showing me the sights, and sherri's birthday party atnorth beach
was a blast, the redwoods, the salvation army thrift store where i
bought my dr sax raincoat, all so much happening. even went on my first
roller coaster ride in my life ALONE!!!
i'm journaling like mad, hoping in a few weeeks after return to have
some interesting things to write. for now, old fashioned fountain pen
and notebook loggin all thoughts and adventures.
mc
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:41:17 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: New Kerouac Translations
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Rinaldo,
Thank you greatly for this info and for being so kind to bring it to my
attention. This is important for my ongoing work on a new bibliography.
Irving
At 04:04 PM 12/29/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Buona giornata a tutti,
>
>at the right moment, in Italy is out (september 97)
>an abridged edition of "Jack Kerouac-Selected Letters 1040-1959)"
>(c) 1995 the Estate of stella Kerouac, John Sampas,
>Literary Representative. Notes copyright (c) Ann Charters,1995
>
>the italian named Jack Kerouac "Letter dalla Beat Generation",
>translated by Silvia Piraccini,
>published by Arnoldo Mondadori Editore S.p.A. Milano
>(a Silvio Berlusconi's publishing house).
>Luckily the book is a paperback edition (lire italiane 9000
>value approximately 3 $).
>Info on Internet
>http://www.mondadori.com/libri
>
>saluti,
>Rinaldo.
>--------
>At 14.55 28/12/97 -0600, Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:
>>Kerouac's reputation and acceptance as an important writer continues to
>>spread around the world. He is now been translated into two additional
>>languages - Turkish and Hebrew.
>>
>>The books are:
>>
>>Yolda (On The Road) published in Istanbul by Kiyi
>>
>>ha-Hatranim (The Subterraneans) published in Tel Aviv by Geranim
>>
>>
>>Irving Leif
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:23:53 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hey Race
Sounds like one of my flights! Hope the satori was good. Gotta
take em where you find em!
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:36:01 -0700
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
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GTL1951 wrote:
> Hey Race
> Sounds like one of my flights! Hope the satori was good. Gotta
> take em where you find em!
> GT
the flight crew was damn amusing. so worried about liability that they're
hopping around like headless chickens.
Phoenix is a warm and wonderful place where cactus grow three thousand feet in
the air.
Satori is always good.
david rhaesa
in mesa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:37:23 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: hello from california
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marie countyman wrote:
> hey there all beat-ls
> the salvation army thrift store where i
> bought my dr sax raincoat,
HEY! I think that's my missing Raincoat!!!
david rhaesa
in mesa
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:38:35 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
> his tom sawyer voice
> yelling come jump in the river
> listen to this.
i'll be huck and we can go to our funerals together
david rhaesa
in mesa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:40:19 -0700
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> patricia wrote:
> >Jim Rhaesa wrote:
> >>
> >> This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie
> >> Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in
> >> Phoenix.
> >>
> >> OR
> >>
> >> It's just a way of saying hello to friends around here and there.
> >>
> >yes you did, great to hear fromyou, happy monday. I was almost silehnt
> >patricia
> >>
> >> so did i miss anything while i was incommunicado?
> >>
> >> david rhaesa (race)
> >
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -odetosatori- -yr white pointed shoes-
> just now the- -you are eating spaghetti
> take away re- in the midnite on the boat
> staurant chi- -yr wind yr wind
> nese in fron- -the sky u never NEVER u'll see
> t of my wind- -an old car
> ow has light- -a new car
> on red lante- -
> rns swaying - -
> cuz the wind- -
> 29 december - -poesy is over for u
> after noon m- -
> y mind is my- -a prayer
> body my brai- -how many diabetics on
> n an electri- the autumnal parking lot
> c transforme- one hundred!
> r blades of - -electric sound in yr
> copper wrapp- mind my brother
> ed day after- -every day so tiny
> day after da- -
> y cut! born!- -no one scream
> dead! i'm li- -electric stream
> stening the - -7 seven days
> radio & look- -
> ing at the s- -
> ky a bit fog- .
> gy the-
> day is-
> hardly-
> over t-
> he rad-
> io tel-
> ls who-
> i am w-
> hooo i-
> am -
> da-
> y -
> af-
> te-
> r -
> da-
> y -
> -
> -
> -
> cos'altro si puo' dire alla fine di una
> giornata invernale? le ombre della nott
> e stanno gia' avvicinandosi, cos'e' un
> satori a parigi, a londra, a phoenix, o
> qui a mestre the cyber venicesque other
> side of the moon world?
> -
> -
> -
> r
> i
> n
> a
> l
> d
> o
> -
> -
> -
> beat heart beat heart beat heart beat heart
> -
> -
> -
> SCREEEEEEEAMM! ode to-day ODE TO-DAY!
> -
> -
> THE
> E L E C T R I C
> T R A N S F O R M E R
> -
> -
> -
> is well working in the factory
> -
> -
> -
> a tribute to d.r.
> -
> -
> -
wonderfulbeautifulloveitmagnificantspinsmysynapsesgottaloveyourwordskeepontyping
gogogo
david rhaesa
in mesa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:40:47 EST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
i'm lost. what exactly is satori that it's so great? i thought it was just a
book or something. anyone care to enlighten me?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:41:42 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nothing and nobody in life are a sure thing.
david rhaesa
in mesa
Diane Carter wrote:
> > RACE wrote:
> >
> > This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie
> > Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in
> > Phoenix.
>
> It has been very quiet here on the beat-l. What did Maggie Cassidy have
> to say to you about the peculiarities of existence?
> DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:44:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Personal to Michael Nally
In-Reply-To: <8b5765b3.34a53fdf@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Michael,
Neither of your email addresses work. Keep bouncing.
Yes, go ahead, use "Sunlight Dies With The Roses" as you wish. I look
forward to seeing the end result. Checked out your site. Looks like it'll
be a good one.
Glenn.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:53:59 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Burgwine <Burgwine@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: No Subject
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
If at all possible, could you subscribe me to your mailing list?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:49:58 -0700
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Aeronwytru wrote:
> i'm lost. what exactly is satori that it's so great? i thought it was just a
> book or something. anyone care to enlighten me?
"Somewhere during my ten days in Paris (AND Brittany) [and could easily have
been Phoenix AND Mesa] I received an illumination of some kind that seems to've
changed me again, towards what I suppose'll be my pattern for another seven
years or more: a SATORI: the Japanese word for 'sudden illumination,' 'sudden
awakening' or simply 'kick in the eye.' Whatever, something DID happen and in
my first reveries after the trip and I'm back home regrouping ...." Jack
Kerouac, Satori in Paris, p.1
Can't enlighten ya further - better to find out for yerself. Experience your
own satori and tell us all how it smelled!
So does anyone have insight on the difference between satori as used here and
epiphany as used elsewhere?
david
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:19:59 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
in my Oxford Dictionary epiphany involves the appearance of a god or
demi-god. satori either doesn't involve any gods or may, but doesn't have
to. depends on which form of Buddhism, i suppose.
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
>Aeronwytru wrote:
>
>> i'm lost. what exactly is satori that it's so great? i thought it was
just a
>> book or something. anyone care to enlighten me?
>
>"Somewhere during my ten days in Paris (AND Brittany) [and could easily
have
>been Phoenix AND Mesa] I received an illumination of some kind that seems
to've
>changed me again, towards what I suppose'll be my pattern for another seven
>years or more: a SATORI: the Japanese word for 'sudden illumination,'
'sudden
>awakening' or simply 'kick in the eye.' Whatever, something DID happen and
in
>my first reveries after the trip and I'm back home regrouping ...." Jack
>Kerouac, Satori in Paris, p.1
>
>Can't enlighten ya further - better to find out for yerself. Experience
your
>own satori and tell us all how it smelled!
>
>So does anyone have insight on the difference between satori as used here
and
>epiphany as used elsewhere?
>
>david
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:37:20 -0800
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From: Mary Maconnell <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>
Subject: New/"Kerouac: The Essence of Jack"
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Hi. I'm new to the list and probably shouldn't be posting until I sit and
read letters for a few days but I'm posting nonetheless. I've read Jack
and loved him but what spurred me to join a mailing list was this show I
caught in Seattle: "Kerouac: The Essence of Jack." Probably some of you
have seen it and know what I'm talking about. Vincent Balestri performs
this one-man show where he plays Jack and *IS* Jack. I'm not going to
be unpurposefully redundant in telling you all about it because it's
probably already been discussed here. But I was amazed and mesmerized
and it was the best live theater thing I have ever seen in my life.
So I'm glad there's a mailing list for this and so far I've read really
great things and I'm looking forward to reading even more. :)
Mary
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:35:18 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
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> Race wrote:
>
> so did i miss anything while i was incommunicado?
>
> David
Missed almost nothing as far as I can tell--but then I was incommunicado for
a long time to. Good to have you back, and with a recent satori--even
better. Just make sure you eat the right cactus!
James
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:45:12 EST
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From: VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
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"Beat Zen" is something that we all I think need to watch out for. It's
wonderful that Kerouac and Gary Snyder and Alan Watts and all those brilliant
poetic angels with Western origins developed a penchant for Buddhism,
especially Zen..but I think there was a huge gap inherent in this Beat Zen
(especially in Kerouac's arena), and we should all exercise caution when
throwing around our Zen Buddhist phrases. Thru Time Zen monks in the Far East
have practiced, studied sutras, and gone half-mad on the path to experiencing
bodhi, or satori, or enlightenment (and Gautama Buddha himself, well we know
what ordeals preceded his "satori") and these are people whose lives were
wholly devoted to the experience of their Buddhism, down to the last teacup.
It's fantastic to experience insights into our own lives, especially when on
the road, and I give props to all who see deeper into themselves, I give holy
praises (to people like this cat who just got back...name David?)because we
all should be feeling insights into where and who and why we are...but I just
feel and have felt for a while that Kerouac's use of the word satori should
perhaps be taken lightly, more lightly perhaps than D.T. Suzuki's (or another
East-West Zen master's ) use of the word. I am in love with Kerouac's
writings but I still feel a bit cynical about his Zen...partly because I know
that I'm constantly equating myself and my own situations to Jack's (regarding
his thoughts on Zen), and I feel that the Zen about which he wrote and which
he experienced, and which I often believe to experience, is, i don't
know...there's some dualism which shouldn't be there, some lack of humility,
something entirely too Western and empty, or perhaps not empty enough.
A.C.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:35:57 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Allen Ginsberg & Ronald Reagan.
In-Reply-To: <199712291841.MAA08366@dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com>
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...
<<Ah love is so sweet in the Spring time,>>
Jeanette McDonald sang
three decades ago
on marble balustrade in giant darkness
downtown Paterson Fabian Theater balcony
I wept, How soft flesh is-
Watching boyish Ronald Reagan
emote
his shadow
across the 'Thirties
Same black vastness
pierced
by emotion
melancholy toward the stars-
Political planets whirling round the Sun,
...
a fragment by Allen Ginsberg, IRON HORSE, 22-23th july 1966.
the above fragment from IRON HORSE is nice as a back to
the future plot where Ginsberg in the Fabian (leftist society)
weeps for the future political planet of ronald reagan (the
'81-'89 Us of America president)
saluti,
Rinaldo
-------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:38:02 -0700
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From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)
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seems like what your saying here might make a bit of sense. least something to
dream about a bit over my morning coffee as my brother's cats -- precious and
bob-cat fondle my legs. Wondering if you find "any" Western uses of Zen phrases
reasonable. I have to say I feel an uneasiness squirm in my stomach at the
number
of "zenishistic" books at the Mall bookstores of America and think of the vast
uses and misuses of phrases and words in a viral departure from traditional
meanings.
VegasDaddy wrote:
> "Beat Zen" is something that we all I think need to watch out for. It's
> wonderful that Kerouac and Gary Snyder and Alan Watts and all those brilliant
> poetic angels with Western origins developed a penchant for Buddhism,
> especially Zen.
I think that my penchant probably began with Watts but I found more interesting
accounts in the writings of Blyth, Herrigel(sp?), and Suzuki. While i didn't
bring it on this trip, Blyth's "Games ZenMasters Play" is hilarious in many
regards. But I think that it is easy for us to attempt to gain "satori" or some
other word by imagining or replaying the path of another found in a book and i
think this is an error of sorts. Of course, we might happen along the way by a
repetitive pattern, but it seems that the experience which pops one's mind past
certain points on the perceptual map is usually unusual -- it isn't the usual
path
of another because the experience has a peculiar and particular flavour (and
odour
<grin>) for each person -- and for each moment of it.
I've had some difficulty in seeing the Zen in GS's writings. I can imagine that
certain experiences in the natural world might bring some kick in one's
awareness
-- and every so often a cricket's song will whack my ear just right -- but the
writing seems to me at least just propaganda against contemporary culture more
than accounts of illumination in the natural world.
> .but I think there was a huge gap inherent in this Beat Zen
> (especially in Kerouac's arena), and we should all exercise caution when
> throwing around our Zen Buddhist phrases.
I imagine you have something here with regards to Jack's uses. It seems that JK
-- and one of the things I enjoy most about him -- was willing to take ideas,
notions, words and whatnot and make them his own and put them to his own uses.
Soooooo if one is interested in strict and cautionary use of language JK would
not
be a primer of the path probably. But - this irreverance on his part might be
one
of the conditions required for sliding (or zooming) past the viral control of
certain words in the world today.
> Thru Time Zen monks in the Far East
> have practiced, studied sutras, and gone half-mad on the path to experiencing
> bodhi, or satori, or enlightenment (and Gautama Buddha himself, well we know
> what ordeals preceded his "satori") and these are people whose lives were
> wholly devoted to the experience of their Buddhism, down to the last teacup.
Teacup! -- beautiful and flower arranging and this and that and watching Alice
with my niece and nephew I'd probably suggest the half mad art of hat-wearing
(of
which i'm closer to the angle of illumination than with tea, flowers, or
archery)...
> It's fantastic to experience insights into our own lives, especially when on
> the road, and I give props to all who see deeper into themselves, I give holy
> praises (to people like this cat who just got back...name David?)because we
> all should be feeling insights into where and who and why we are.
backtoya with the praises (but not so holy) for these thoughts (from
David?race?)
insights into How we are can be nice as well.
> ..but I just
> feel and have felt for a while that Kerouac's use of the word satori should
> perhaps be taken lightly, more lightly perhaps than D.T. Suzuki's (or another
> East-West Zen master's ) use of the word.
And so where would you recommend one turn - or to whom? Are you saying that the
bridge between the experiences of East-West socio-culture are too vast to
translate from East to West or West to East --- not just in words but in deeds
and
attitude/orientation it would seem? Where does this leave us in the art of
how-ing our experiences.
> I am in love with Kerouac's
> writings but I still feel a bit cynical about his Zen...partly because I know
> that I'm constantly equating myself and my own situations to Jack's (regarding
> his thoughts on Zen), and I feel that the Zen about which he wrote and which
> he experienced, and which I often believe to experience, is, i don't
> know...there's some dualism which shouldn't be there, some lack of humility,
> something entirely too Western and empty, or perhaps not empty enough.
> A.C.
something entirely too Western and empty or perhaps not empty enough -
i think that is REALLY funny. it's so easy to slam and scream at the emptiness
of
living in Phoenix or the Plains and then turn in hope of an emptiness that is
BETTER or MORE EMPTY. The slamming and screaming seem to be the lack of
humility
-- and sometimes it feels that way about any writing as well (or is that just an
excuse for slow output on other projects?) .... when the screaming fades would
the
illuminati of Western emptiness be so horrible ---and to draw on Rinaldo's
Ginsberg/Reagan post --- this probably extends as far as Ronnie. Or as far back
as Ike tied to Burroughs in a letter ...
and if you tried to understand any of this ... well ... that was your choice.
david rhaesa (race)
coffee tastes the same
in Mesa
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:50:09 -0700
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From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
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as i recall from some years back OED usually gives the context (in tiny tiny
tiny print) and i was wondering from where they drew these meanings for epiphany
and satori.............
david rhaesa (race)
looking for Abraxas in Mesa
sherri wrote:
> in my Oxford Dictionary epiphany involves the appearance of a god or
> demi-god. satori either doesn't involve any gods or may, but doesn't have
> to. depends on which form of Buddhism, i suppose.
>
> ciao, sherri
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 9:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
>
> >Aeronwytru wrote:
> >
> >> i'm lost. what exactly is satori that it's so great? i thought it was
> just a
> >> book or something. anyone care to enlighten me?
> >
> >"Somewhere during my ten days in Paris (AND Brittany) [and could easily
> have
> >been Phoenix AND Mesa] I received an illumination of some kind that seems
> to've
> >changed me again, towards what I suppose'll be my pattern for another seven
> >years or more: a SATORI: the Japanese word for 'sudden illumination,'
> 'sudden
> >awakening' or simply 'kick in the eye.' Whatever, something DID happen and
> in
> >my first reveries after the trip and I'm back home regrouping ...." Jack
> >Kerouac, Satori in Paris, p.1
> >
> >Can't enlighten ya further - better to find out for yerself. Experience
> your
> >own satori and tell us all how it smelled!
> >
> >So does anyone have insight on the difference between satori as used here
> and
> >epiphany as used elsewhere?
> >
> >david
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:31:50 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
Comments: cc: Florian Cramer <cantsin@ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
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On Sat, 27 Dec 1997, Florian Cramer wrote:
> took me long until I stumbled over information that Brion Gysin wrote
> "permutation poems" around 1960. This is highly interesting for me, since
> it was the same time when Raymond Queneau wrote his permuting "100.000
> Billion Poems" and when the information theorist Abraham A. Moles
> published his "Manifesto of Permutation Art".
There are Gysin permutation poems in _The Exterminator_, which was
published in 1960:
TITLE: The exterminator / William Burroughs, Brion Gysin. -
IMPRINT: San Francisco : Auerhahn Press, 1960.
NOTES: Narrative and poems. * Poems and calligraphs by Brion Gysin.
LANGUAGE: eng
PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: 51 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
ASSOCIATED NAME(S): Gysin, Brion. * Haselwood, Dave L. - Book designer. *
Haselwood, Dave L. - Printer. * McIlroy, James F. - Printer. *
Auerhahn Press - Private Press.
This was the first "cut-up" work Burroughs and Gysin published in
collaboration, although it came after the publication of _Minutes to Go_,
which also included work by Sinclair Beiles, and Gregory Corso. I haven't
yet read _Minutes to Go_, so I don't know if there are permutation poems
in there (anyone?), although I imagine there is, since that was extent of
his poetic contribution to The Exterminator (excepting, of course, the
calligraphic work):
TITLE: Minutes to go [by] Sinclair Beiles [and others.]
PUBLISHED: [Paris The English Bookshop] [c1960]
PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: 63p.
SERIES: Two cities editions
There was a second edition that I am told is identical to the first (which
cannot be said for many books Burroughs has been involved with):
TITLE: Minutes to go [by] Sinclair Beiles [and others]
PUBLISHED: [San Francisco] Beach Books, Texts & Documents [c1968]
PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: 63p.
I vaguely remember hearing that a permutation of Gysin's phrase "Rub out
the Word" appeared in _Minutes to Go_ but I'd check with someone who's
read the book. There are also recordings of Gysin reading his permutation
poems, including "Kick that Habit Man", "Junk is No Good Baby" and some
others.
As for finding the above books, if you wanted to buy them, you'd have to
shell out anywhere between $85 to $200 American dollars for The
Exterminator, and I've seen the first edition of Minutes to Go at a wide
range of prices from $100 to $250, and the second edition at around
$40-$80.
> You might also be interested
> to hear that the "fold-in" method was prototyped in a novel by Marc
> Saporta which appeared in the early 1960s.
Can you give a reference where I could find information about this?
The first book Burroughs wrote/assembled using fold-in texts-- _The Soft
Machine_ -- appeared in 1961 from The Olympia Press in Paris.
> It seems like the mutual
> influences on the development of combinatory/permutational literature in
> early 1960s France (where I guess Gysin was living at that time) still
> needs to be researched, in case I'm not telling you old stories here.
Certainly does. The 100,000 sonnet book gets a lot of attention from
people doing work on hypertext theory and literature. And yes, both
Burroughs and Gysin were living in Paris in the early 60's.
> Hence my question: Are Gysin's "permutation poems" published in books?
Yes, the one's above.
> Are there any essays or commentaries about them?
I haven't seen any.
> In the Web, I found information that Gysin created these poems with the
> help of a computer; however, the Web page didn't mention the source of
> this information, so I'm a bit suspicious.
I can't confirm that this is true, or offer a source (other than the
Burroughs bio's), but both Burroughs and Gysin worked with Ian
Sommerville, a computer scientist from Britain, on tape recorder
experiments, so it is possible that he helped Gysin with his
permutations.
> Did Gysin make any statements about his permutational poetry in
> interviews?
The best books to look into are _Here to Go: Planet R-101_ which is
constructed as a series of interviews with Gysin, _Brion Gysin Let the
Mice In_ , and _Man from Nowhere: Storming the Citadels of
Enlightenment_. Mike Cakebread might be able to tell you if there's
anything about permutations in the Man from Nowhere book (Mike?)
> ... It seems really difficult
> researching this, since most of Gysin's books are small press and out of
Yup, it sure is hard. I don't know what it's like in Europe, but decent
university libraries in N. America should have most of these books. For
instance, The University of Toronto libraries have all of the books I've
mentioned except for Man from Nowhere, although many of them are kept in
the rare book collection. I don't know if they do
inter-(continental)library loans though.
> and I guess that the majority of Gysin criticism has been published
> in the underground press.
There was a chap-book published for Burroughs' 80th birthday that had a
piece that took the oft-cited words of Hassan I Sabbah "Nothing
is True. Everything is Permitted" and transformed them into "Nothing is
True. Everything is Permuted". I'll check it out next time I'm at the
homestead to see if it's of interest.
Hope I've been of some assistance.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:36:34 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)
while i like to see neither misuse of nor pablum philosophy - a philosophy
or religion is dead if it does not continue to evolve as humankind learns.
for zen to deny any great western insights or experiences, and there are
some, would mean that zen was getting in its own way, which would mean it
would be denying one of its own precepts: "if you meet the Buddha, kill
him".
paix, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 4:48 AM
Subject: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)
>seems like what your saying here might make a bit of sense. least
something to
>dream about a bit over my morning coffee as my brother's cats -- precious
and
>bob-cat fondle my legs. Wondering if you find "any" Western uses of Zen
phrases
>reasonable. I have to say I feel an uneasiness squirm in my stomach at the
> number
>of "zenishistic" books at the Mall bookstores of America and think of the
vast
>uses and misuses of phrases and words in a viral departure from traditional
>meanings.
>
>VegasDaddy wrote:
>
>> "Beat Zen" is something that we all I think need to watch out for. It's
>> wonderful that Kerouac and Gary Snyder and Alan Watts and all those
brilliant
>> poetic angels with Western origins developed a penchant for Buddhism,
>> especially Zen.
>
>I think that my penchant probably began with Watts but I found more
interesting
>accounts in the writings of Blyth, Herrigel(sp?), and Suzuki. While i
didn't
>bring it on this trip, Blyth's "Games ZenMasters Play" is hilarious in many
>regards. But I think that it is easy for us to attempt to gain "satori" or
some
>other word by imagining or replaying the path of another found in a book
and i
>think this is an error of sorts. Of course, we might happen along the way
by a
>repetitive pattern, but it seems that the experience which pops one's mind
past
>certain points on the perceptual map is usually unusual -- it isn't the
usual
> path
>of another because the experience has a peculiar and particular flavour
(and
> odour
><grin>) for each person -- and for each moment of it.
>
>I've had some difficulty in seeing the Zen in GS's writings. I can imagine
that
>certain experiences in the natural world might bring some kick in one's
> awareness
>-- and every so often a cricket's song will whack my ear just right -- but
the
>writing seems to me at least just propaganda against contemporary culture
more
>than accounts of illumination in the natural world.
>
>
>> .but I think there was a huge gap inherent in this Beat Zen
>> (especially in Kerouac's arena), and we should all exercise caution when
>> throwing around our Zen Buddhist phrases.
>
>I imagine you have something here with regards to Jack's uses. It seems
that JK
>-- and one of the things I enjoy most about him -- was willing to take
ideas,
>notions, words and whatnot and make them his own and put them to his own
uses.
>Soooooo if one is interested in strict and cautionary use of language JK
would
> not
>be a primer of the path probably. But - this irreverance on his part might
be
> one
>of the conditions required for sliding (or zooming) past the viral control
of
>certain words in the world today.
>
>
>> Thru Time Zen monks in the Far East
>> have practiced, studied sutras, and gone half-mad on the path to
experiencing
>> bodhi, or satori, or enlightenment (and Gautama Buddha himself, well we
know
>> what ordeals preceded his "satori") and these are people whose lives were
>> wholly devoted to the experience of their Buddhism, down to the last
teacup.
>
>Teacup! -- beautiful and flower arranging and this and that and watching
Alice
>with my niece and nephew I'd probably suggest the half mad art of
hat-wearing
> (of
>which i'm closer to the angle of illumination than with tea, flowers, or
>archery)...
>
>
>> It's fantastic to experience insights into our own lives, especially when
on
>> the road, and I give props to all who see deeper into themselves, I give
holy
>> praises (to people like this cat who just got back...name David?)because
we
>> all should be feeling insights into where and who and why we are.
>
>backtoya with the praises (but not so holy) for these thoughts (from
> David?race?)
>insights into How we are can be nice as well.
>
>
>> ..but I just
>> feel and have felt for a while that Kerouac's use of the word satori
should
>> perhaps be taken lightly, more lightly perhaps than D.T. Suzuki's (or
another
>> East-West Zen master's ) use of the word.
>
>And so where would you recommend one turn - or to whom? Are you saying
that the
>bridge between the experiences of East-West socio-culture are too vast to
>translate from East to West or West to East --- not just in words but in
deeds
> and
>attitude/orientation it would seem? Where does this leave us in the art of
>how-ing our experiences.
>
>
>> I am in love with Kerouac's
>> writings but I still feel a bit cynical about his Zen...partly because I
know
>> that I'm constantly equating myself and my own situations to Jack's
(regarding
>> his thoughts on Zen), and I feel that the Zen about which he wrote and
which
>> he experienced, and which I often believe to experience, is, i don't
>> know...there's some dualism which shouldn't be there, some lack of
humility,
>> something entirely too Western and empty, or perhaps not empty enough.
>> A.C.
>
>
>something entirely too Western and empty or perhaps not empty enough -
>i think that is REALLY funny. it's so easy to slam and scream at the
emptiness
> of
>living in Phoenix or the Plains and then turn in hope of an emptiness that
is
>BETTER or MORE EMPTY. The slamming and screaming seem to be the lack of
> humility
>-- and sometimes it feels that way about any writing as well (or is that
just an
>excuse for slow output on other projects?) .... when the screaming fades
would
> the
>illuminati of Western emptiness be so horrible ---and to draw on Rinaldo's
>Ginsberg/Reagan post --- this probably extends as far as Ronnie. Or as far
back
>as Ike tied to Burroughs in a letter ...
>
>and if you tried to understand any of this ... well ... that was your
choice.
>
>david rhaesa (race)
>coffee tastes the same
>in Mesa
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:37:47 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
epiphany: 'Mid Eng from Greek epiphaneia 'manifestation', from epiphaino,
'reveal'
satori: Japanese, 'awakening'
so it seems to me one could use the word epiphany in place of satori, but
the sense could be misunderstood. plus epiphany carries the sense that
someone or thing outside the self originated the experience, which satori
does not seem to imply.
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 4:50 AM
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
>as i recall from some years back OED usually gives the context (in tiny
tiny
>tiny print) and i was wondering from where they drew these meanings for
epiphany
>and satori.............
>
>david rhaesa (race)
>looking for Abraxas in Mesa
>
>sherri wrote:
>
>> in my Oxford Dictionary epiphany involves the appearance of a god or
>> demi-god. satori either doesn't involve any gods or may, but doesn't
have
>> to. depends on which form of Buddhism, i suppose.
>>
>> ciao, sherri
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
>> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>> Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 9:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
>>
>> >Aeronwytru wrote:
>> >
>> >> i'm lost. what exactly is satori that it's so great? i thought it was
>> just a
>> >> book or something. anyone care to enlighten me?
>> >
>> >"Somewhere during my ten days in Paris (AND Brittany) [and could easily
>> have
>> >been Phoenix AND Mesa] I received an illumination of some kind that
seems
>> to've
>> >changed me again, towards what I suppose'll be my pattern for another
seven
>> >years or more: a SATORI: the Japanese word for 'sudden illumination,'
>> 'sudden
>> >awakening' or simply 'kick in the eye.' Whatever, something DID happen
and
>> in
>> >my first reveries after the trip and I'm back home regrouping ...."
Jack
>> >Kerouac, Satori in Paris, p.1
>> >
>> >Can't enlighten ya further - better to find out for yerself. Experience
>> your
>> >own satori and tell us all how it smelled!
>> >
>> >So does anyone have insight on the difference between satori as used
here
>> and
>> >epiphany as used elsewhere?
>> >
>> >david
>> >
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:03:22 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: BeatSuperNovaUpdated
In-Reply-To: <199712291841.MAA08366@dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Return-Path: <npk@powertech.no>
>Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:41:12 +0100
>From: Nicholas Knutsen <npk@powertech.no>
>To: rasa@gpnet.it
>Subject: New beats for the list
>
>How about JIM JARMUSCH, a filmmaker who is very influenced by the beat
>style. And he works a lot with Tom Waits, and also JOHN LURIE, a
>musician who is not on your list either.
>And then there's LOU REED...
>
>Nick
>
>--
>--==--==--==--
>
>-- Mork, Where'd you get the dead Mindys..?
>-- They're not dead, Mind. It's just my personal pile of perkiness.
>
Nick, much thanks!
tante grazie for yr help to improve the beat web site,
i've added John Lurie to the list of beats,
have a happy new year!
saluti cari,
Rinaldo.
--------
p.s. i posted in the following url a picture of John Lurie (photographed
by Wim Wender)
http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/lurie_john_at_soho.html
----------------------------------
Beats:The List
Beat SuperNova
an absolutely shit kicking list
http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm
----------------------------------
Carl Adkins
Willie Loco Alexander
Donald Allen
Steve Allen
David Amram
Kenneth Anger
Jerry Aronson
Al Aronowitz
Mary Beach
Amari Baraka (LeRoi Jones)
Wallace Berman
Stephen Jesse Bernstein
Ted Berrigan
Paul Blackburn
Robin Blaser
Richard Brautigan
Bonnie Bremser
Ray Bremser
Chandler Brossard
Lenny Bruce
Charles Bukowski
William S. Burroughs
William S. Burroughs Jr.
John Cage
Edgar Cayce
Caleb Carr
Lucien Carr
Paul Carroll
Louis R Cartwright
Carolyn Cassady
Neal Cassady
Norris Church
Tom Clark
Andy Clausen
Leonard Cohen
Al Cohn
Bruce Conner
Gregory Corso
Robert Creeley
Henry Cru
Fielding Dawson
Jay deFeo
Robert De Niro
Diane DiPrima
John Doe
Kirby Doyle
Edward Dorn
Robert Duncan
Bob Dylan
Larry Eigner
Kenward Elmslie
William Everson (Brother Antoninus)
Mary Fabilli
Larry Fagin
Richard Farina
Lawrence Ferlinghetti
Tom Field
Charles Henry Ford
Charles Foster
Robert Frank
Allen Ginsberg
John Giorno
Paul Goodman
Robert Gover
James Grauerholz
Morris Graves
Emmet Grogan
Brion Gysin
Howard Hart
Dave Hazelwood
Wally Hedrick
Abbie Hoffman
John Clellon Holmes
Herbert Huncke
Evan Hunter
William Inge
Robinson Jeffers
Ted Joans
Joyce Johnson
Lenore Kandel
John Kelly
Robert Kelly
Jack Kerouac
Jan Kerouac
Ken Kesey
Franz Kline
Seymour Krim
Paul Krassner
Art Kunkin
Tuli Kupferberg
Joanne Kyger
La Loca
Philip Lamantia
Jay Landesman
Fran Landesman
James Laughlin
Denise Levertov
Timothy Leary
Alfred Leslie
Lawrence Lipton
Ron Loewinsohn
Gerald Locklin
Philomene Long
Malcom Lowry
John Lurie
Bill MacNeill
Norman Mailer
Gerard Malanga
Edward Marshall
Peter Martin
Lewis McAdams
Joanna McClure
Michael McClure
Fred McDarrah
Don McNeill
Taylor Mead
David Meltzer
Jack Micheline
Henry Miller
John Montgomery
Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao
Ken Nordine
Harold Norse
Frank O'Hara
David Ohle
Charles Olson
Peter Orlovsky
Kenneth Patchen
Thomas Parkinson
Claude Pelieu
Nancy Peters
Stuart Z. Perkoff
Charles Plymell
Dan Propper
Lee Ranaldo
Lou Reed
Kenneth Rexroth
Steve Richmond
Frank Rios
Edoardo Roditi
Theodore Roethke
Hugh Romney
Michael Rumaker
Ed Sanders
Albert Saijo
Mark Schorer
Tony Scibella
Hubert Jr. Selby
Patti Smith
Gary Snyder
Carl Solomon
Terry Southern
Jack Spicer
Hunter Stockton Thompson
Bob Thiele
John Thomas
Mark Tobey
Alexander Trocchi
Giuseppe Ungaretti
Charles Upton
Janine Pommy Vega
William T. Vollmann
Tom Waits
Anne Waldman
Lewis Warsh
Alan W. Watts
Lew Welch (Lewis Barret Welch)
Philip Whalen
John Wieners
Jonathan Williams
William Carlos Williams
Clay Wilson
Ruth Witt-Diamant
James Wright
Zoot Simms
Louis Zukofsky
------------------------------
last update 30th december 1997
------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:53:54 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <5096c7dd.34a8a68a@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, VegasDaddy wrote:
> "Beat Zen" is something that we all I think need to watch out for. It's
> wonderful that Kerouac and Gary Snyder and Alan Watts and all those brilliant
> poetic angels with Western origins developed a penchant for Buddhism,
> especially Zen..but I think there was a huge gap inherent in this Beat Zen
> (especially in Kerouac's arena), and we should all exercise caution when
> throwing around our Zen Buddhist phrases. Thru Time Zen monks in the Far East
> have practiced, studied sutras, and gone half-mad on the path to experiencing
> bodhi, or satori, or enlightenment (and Gautama Buddha himself, well we know
> what ordeals preceded his "satori") and these are people whose lives were
> wholly devoted to the experience of their Buddhism, down to the last teacup.
> It's fantastic to experience insights into our own lives, especially when on
> the road, and I give props to all who see deeper into themselves, I give holy
> praises (to people like this cat who just got back...name David?)because we
> all should be feeling insights into where and who and why we are...but I just
> feel and have felt for a while that Kerouac's use of the word satori should
> perhaps be taken lightly, more lightly perhaps than D.T. Suzuki's (or another
> East-West Zen master's ) use of the word. I am in love with Kerouac's
> writings but I still feel a bit cynical about his Zen...partly because I know
> that I'm constantly equating myself and my own situations to Jack's (regarding
> his thoughts on Zen), and I feel that the Zen about which he wrote and which
> he experienced, and which I often believe to experience, is, i don't
> know...there's some dualism which shouldn't be there, some lack of humility,
> something entirely too Western and empty, or perhaps not empty enough.
> A.C.
>
if all is emptiness (sunyata), how can something be 'not empty enough'
eric
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:06:43 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hey Vegas
I believe you have a valid point here. I also believe that what kept
JK from totally getting into a "real" Zen was his inherent hangups via Roman
Catholicism. A tough nut to break away from in any case. Satori doesnt come
cheap, if ever. If you look at it is as simple little breakthroughs i feel you
might miss the total picture. This is only my opinion, and coming from one who
has been away from Zen for 20 some years and now trying to work my way back
into it. I love Some of the Dharma but I also realize that it was written by a
man who was sorta confused when he wrote it. I think we should appreciate what
the Beats were doing when they got into Buddhism and Zen, and in the case of
Snyder, actually made a comitment to it. Also would have to include Whalen in
there. Its a hard road. I hope to finish it. Not holding my breath, then again
I am.
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:40:58 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: New/"Kerouac: The Essence of Jack"
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:37:20 -0800 from
<MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>
On the contrary, Mary, we haven't heard much on this play. Any further comment
s you have will be of interest.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:43:31 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: New/"Kerouac: The Essence of Jack"
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Thanks to Diane DeRooy I saw the play - the Essence of Jack, while visiting
Seattle this fall. It was excellent.
It has run in Seattle, at a small theatre, the Velvet Elvis just off Pioneer
Square (the original skid row), for over a year. I'm not sure if it is still
running, it has been held over several times.
It opens with a fine jazz combo. From there it is a series of events from
Kerouac's life. It sticks pretty close to the facts as I understand them with
some "license" when the actor gets into the rhelm of how Kerouac felt about
certain things. The territiory is pretty familier - Gerards death, football
days, meeting Cassidy and Ginsberg, troubles getting On The Road published,
positive and negative reactions to OTR, troubles brought on by sudden fame,
the Steve Allen show, the breakdown at Big Sur, the Merry Pranksters visit,
the alcohol soaked 60's. Readings from various Kerouac books are sprinkled
throughout. At the end Vincent takes questions -- mostly from
twentysomethings who know a little, but not a lot, about Kerouac.
I highly recommend the play to anyone visiting Seattle.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:08:42 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 97-12-30 07:38:53 EST, you write:
<< I imagine you have something here with regards to Jack's uses. It seems
that JK
-- and one of the things I enjoy most about him -- was willing to take ideas,
notions, words and whatnot and make them his own and put them to his own
uses.
Soooooo if one is interested in strict and cautionary use of language JK
would
not
be a primer of the path probably. But - this irreverance on his part might
be
one
of the conditions required for sliding (or zooming) past the viral control of
certain words in the world today. >>
David - Very true, Jack's non-conformity, or "irreverance" both on and off the
page are what made him so beautiful, and as an original stylist he is
immortal. But I don't think that he was really ever able to grasp Buddhism
beyond an intellectual level. I think that if Jack had really had a genuine
satori, then he would not have died by the bottle.
As for living in Pheonix or the Plains, I don't think that would put a damper
on anyone's Zen. I just think that here in the Western world we tend to view
life very differently than they view it in the Far East, and when Americans
take Zen Buddhist concepts and play around with them, very often their Zen
becomes defiled confused and futile. I'm not saying that a Westerner can't
practice Zen or gain new insights into Buddhism or even realize Prajna, that
is, experience satori thru seeing into their own Buddha-natures...but we
definitely tend to intellectualize these things and adapt them to our somewhat
fucked up American way of looking at things, at least when we adopt Zen.
It is one (and a wonderful) thing to gain insight into one's life. It is
another (and not very common) thing to experience a Zen satori, to become one
with your no-mind or Unconscious, or to see into the vast emptiness of one's
own self-nature.
Tho I do hear what you're saying about irreverance to language, and I think
that you are absolutely right and most of the Time I say screw traditional
uses of words...but with Zen Buddhism I feel that we must look to the East,
and BeatZen is great but when we read it and about it I think we need to
realize that it's not true Zen teaching...
Anthony C.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:31:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
what the heck is a permutation poem? help! i really don't know very much about
this sort of stuff and i hate not knowing things. can someone tell me what it
is in non-technical (read---> layman's) terms and send me a copy of one?
thanks so much.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:27:20 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> ----------------------------------
> Beats:The List
> Beat SuperNova
> an absolutely shit kicking list
> http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm
> ----------------------------------
>
> Michael McClure
i just found a copy of something called "The Beard" by MM today. The
afterward said it was performed four times before police intervention. I
thought that was kinda funny. Anybody read it?
david rhaesa (race)
winding down the year in mesa
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:26:50 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)
In-Reply-To: <074cc1138151ec7UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"Every healthy culture provides for there being non-joiners. Sanyassi,
hermits, drop-outs too...Every healthy society has to tolerate this... "
--Alan Watts.
i have some problems concerning why Jack Kerouac's rejected
the zen experience it seem to me zen is near the catholic feeling
of the life, rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:38:33 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971231002650.0068c89c@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> i have some problems concerning why Jack Kerouac's rejected
> the zen experience it seem to me zen is near the catholic feeling
> of the life, rinaldo.
perhaps because kerouac had so cleansed his consciousness of objectivity
and objective structures, the Nothingness of zen would have been too much
for him. his was essentially a catholic mind, and as such was more at
home in ritual and pageantry than in the zen void. he was like watts in
that - i think watts had very little affection for the void of zen ... his
wonderful _way of zen_ book turns the patriarchs and disciplies into a
colorful pageant through time anyway; has more of a mahayana / tibetan
buddhist feeling.
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Find out the laws then do what you will.
- Susannah Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:45:53 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)
Anthony C. wrote:
>But I don't think that he was really ever able to grasp Buddhism
>beyond an intellectual level. I think that if Jack had really had a
>genuine satori, then he would not have died by the bottle.
while i would agree with you that satori is probably a rather rare
experience, not just in the western world, but in all of it, i would
strongly hesitate to judge anyone else's experience. after all, it's only
experienced within one's own nature. who is anyone to externally judge
that? and who's to say that dying by the bottle wasn't JK's path? i also
never felt that Jack was attempting to be only zen. he looked into, at
least, mahayana buddhism and hinduism and found wisdom there as well.
perhaps, he sought to find those few basic, fundamental truths which seem to
run like a golden thread throughout this world's religions and philosophies,
looking to validate and more deeply understand them.
ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:40:34 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rinaldo,
I like the new list. Just a few minor arguments from me (also plead
ignorance on a few)
John Cage --Black Mtn and all, but beat?--a stretch
Malcolm Lowry--wonderful writer, but definitely not beat to me
Mark Shorer--don't see that one at all either--maybe my memory is wrong but
I remember him as pretty buttoned down and un beat--
but these are minor disagreements. You have done a great service and it is
a wonderful list for suggesting a lot of directions to look.
James Stauffer
Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> >Return-Path: <npk@powertech.no>
> >Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:41:12 +0100
> >From: Nicholas Knutsen <npk@powertech.no>
> >To: rasa@gpnet.it
> >Subject: New beats for the list
> >
> >How about JIM JARMUSCH, a filmmaker who is very influenced by the beat
> >style. And he works a lot with Tom Waits, and also JOHN LURIE, a
> >musician who is not on your list either.
> >And then there's LOU REED...
> >
> >Nick
> >
> >--
> >--==--==--==--
> >
> >-- Mork, Where'd you get the dead Mindys..?
> >-- They're not dead, Mind. It's just my personal pile of perkiness.
> >
>
> Nick, much thanks!
>
> tante grazie for yr help to improve the beat web site,
> i've added John Lurie to the list of beats,
> have a happy new year!
>
> saluti cari,
> Rinaldo.
> --------
> p.s. i posted in the following url a picture of John Lurie (photographed
> by Wim Wender)
>
> http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/lurie_john_at_soho.html
>
> ----------------------------------
> Beats:The List
> Beat SuperNova
> an absolutely shit kicking list
> http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm
> ----------------------------------
> Carl Adkins
> Willie Loco Alexander
> Donald Allen
> Steve Allen
> David Amram
> Kenneth Anger
> Jerry Aronson
> Al Aronowitz
> Mary Beach
> Amari Baraka (LeRoi Jones)
> Wallace Berman
> Stephen Jesse Bernstein
> Ted Berrigan
> Paul Blackburn
> Robin Blaser
> Richard Brautigan
> Bonnie Bremser
> Ray Bremser
> Chandler Brossard
> Lenny Bruce
> Charles Bukowski
> William S. Burroughs
> William S. Burroughs Jr.
> John Cage
> Edgar Cayce
> Caleb Carr
> Lucien Carr
> Paul Carroll
> Louis R Cartwright
> Carolyn Cassady
> Neal Cassady
> Norris Church
> Tom Clark
> Andy Clausen
> Leonard Cohen
> Al Cohn
> Bruce Conner
> Gregory Corso
> Robert Creeley
> Henry Cru
> Fielding Dawson
> Jay deFeo
> Robert De Niro
> Diane DiPrima
> John Doe
> Kirby Doyle
> Edward Dorn
> Robert Duncan
> Bob Dylan
> Larry Eigner
> Kenward Elmslie
> William Everson (Brother Antoninus)
> Mary Fabilli
> Larry Fagin
> Richard Farina
> Lawrence Ferlinghetti
> Tom Field
> Charles Henry Ford
> Charles Foster
> Robert Frank
> Allen Ginsberg
> John Giorno
> Paul Goodman
> Robert Gover
> James Grauerholz
> Morris Graves
> Emmet Grogan
> Brion Gysin
> Howard Hart
> Dave Hazelwood
> Wally Hedrick
> Abbie Hoffman
> John Clellon Holmes
> Herbert Huncke
> Evan Hunter
> William Inge
> Robinson Jeffers
> Ted Joans
> Joyce Johnson
> Lenore Kandel
> John Kelly
> Robert Kelly
> Jack Kerouac
> Jan Kerouac
> Ken Kesey
> Franz Kline
> Seymour Krim
> Paul Krassner
> Art Kunkin
> Tuli Kupferberg
> Joanne Kyger
> La Loca
> Philip Lamantia
> Jay Landesman
> Fran Landesman
> James Laughlin
> Denise Levertov
> Timothy Leary
> Alfred Leslie
> Lawrence Lipton
> Ron Loewinsohn
> Gerald Locklin
> Philomene Long
> Malcom Lowry
> John Lurie
> Bill MacNeill
> Norman Mailer
> Gerard Malanga
> Edward Marshall
> Peter Martin
> Lewis McAdams
> Joanna McClure
> Michael McClure
> Fred McDarrah
> Don McNeill
> Taylor Mead
> David Meltzer
> Jack Micheline
> Henry Miller
> John Montgomery
> Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao
> Ken Nordine
> Harold Norse
> Frank O'Hara
> David Ohle
> Charles Olson
> Peter Orlovsky
> Kenneth Patchen
> Thomas Parkinson
> Claude Pelieu
> Nancy Peters
> Stuart Z. Perkoff
> Charles Plymell
> Dan Propper
> Lee Ranaldo
> Lou Reed
> Kenneth Rexroth
> Steve Richmond
> Frank Rios
> Edoardo Roditi
> Theodore Roethke
> Hugh Romney
> Michael Rumaker
> Ed Sanders
> Albert Saijo
> Mark Schorer
> Tony Scibella
> Hubert Jr. Selby
> Patti Smith
> Gary Snyder
> Carl Solomon
> Terry Southern
> Jack Spicer
> Hunter Stockton Thompson
> Bob Thiele
> John Thomas
> Mark Tobey
> Alexander Trocchi
> Giuseppe Ungaretti
> Charles Upton
> Janine Pommy Vega
> William T. Vollmann
> Tom Waits
> Anne Waldman
> Lewis Warsh
> Alan W. Watts
> Lew Welch (Lewis Barret Welch)
> Philip Whalen
> John Wieners
> Jonathan Williams
> William Carlos Williams
> Clay Wilson
> Ruth Witt-Diamant
> James Wright
> Zoot Simms
> Louis Zukofsky
> ------------------------------
> last update 30th december 1997
> ------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:21:27 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
hey, dont you guys think Jim Carroll's beat?
i mean if you're gonna name Lou Reed and Patti Smith "beats", well then...
oh, and why no Dennis Hopper??????
-- Ginny.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:19:02 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971230153355.13470B-100000@global.california .com>
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>On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
>> i have some problems concerning why Jack Kerouac's rejected
>> the zen experience it seem to me zen is near the catholic feeling
>> of the life, rinaldo.
At 15.38 30/12/97 -0800, Michael R. Brown wrote:
>
>perhaps because kerouac had so cleansed his consciousness of objectivity
>and objective structures, the Nothingness of zen would have been too much
>for him. his was essentially a catholic mind, and as such was more at
>home in ritual and pageantry than in the zen void. [...]
> Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
michael,
i think, jack kerouac abandoned the countercultural movement
growing in the '60s (ginsberg, snyder, et cetera) for istance
he started the revisionism of the "beat" shifting the meaning
from "hey i'm beat" to "beatific" as in Saint Francesco way.
kerouac in his last years have a little problems with his old
beat friends (& wasn't present in the countercultural debate).
sometime expressed furore as for political or cultural performances
of his dated friends. anyway jack kerouac via the catholic
roman church has a reincarnation not a rebirth. in my opinion
the myth of the reincarnation of our own body (in flesh) and
not trasmigrate in other beings on this planet (kharma) is a strong
point favorauble to mother christian/catholic curch way of life
(i think of "visions of gerard"), &(sad) the good dies young...,
saluti rinaldo.
---------------
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:00:17 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: New/"Kerouac: The Essence of Jack"
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Looking forward to hearing more about Jack's Essence.
Please tell us more and more and more....
david rhaesa (race)
still in the Valley
Mary Maconnell wrote:
> Hi. I'm new to the list and probably shouldn't be posting until I sit and
> read letters for a few days but I'm posting nonetheless. I've read Jack
> and loved him but what spurred me to join a mailing list was this show I
> caught in Seattle: "Kerouac: The Essence of Jack." Probably some of you
> have seen it and know what I'm talking about. Vincent Balestri performs
> this one-man show where he plays Jack and *IS* Jack. I'm not going to
> be unpurposefully redundant in telling you all about it because it's
> probably already been discussed here. But I was amazed and mesmerized
> and it was the best live theater thing I have ever seen in my life.
>
> So I'm glad there's a mailing list for this and so far I've read really
> great things and I'm looking forward to reading even more. :)
>
> Mary
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:17:25 -0500
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From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Last goodbye to Allen & Bill
In-Reply-To: <34AA4FF0.F5BD7247@primenet.com>
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As 1997 comes to a close, so we say goodbye to the last year of the lives
of Allen Ginsberg and Bill Burroughs. The coming year, and all the
coming years, will not seem as full without those two in the world.
Goodbye Allen...Goodbye Bill...your words will live on.
Next time Im at the White Horse, I'm going to drink a cold one in your
memories.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:22:57 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Last goodbye to Allen & Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971231101354.18642A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
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On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
> As 1997 comes to a close, so we say goodbye to the last year of the lives
> of Allen Ginsberg and Bill Burroughs. The coming year, and all the
> coming years, will not seem as full without those two in the world.
>
> Goodbye Allen...Goodbye Bill...your words will live on.
>
> Next time Im at the White Horse, I'm going to drink a cold one in your
> memories.
To paraphrase Bill's friend, the Bard of Avon,
They were men.
Take them all for all
And all in all,
Their like shall not come again.
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Find out the laws then do what you will.
- Susannah Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:08:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Hello Again
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I'm back again, at least temporarily. I thought I'd give the list
another try, I've been watching for a few days and no one's used the
dreaded E- word, (can't bear to even write the whole word, someone may
bring the subject up again).
Received a copy of Some of the Dharma for the holidays. Anyone else
currently in its throes?
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:00:07 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: ho ho holicay
Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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I am envious of you all, getting together in calif , sherri give marie a
hug, james, give sherri a hug. etc. my self i usually don't hug but if
i see david on his way back to salina i will give him a hug. We have
been warned to watch out for beat zen signs so, i will watch out, eager
always to advance the warpage of an old religion. I am not sure that i
see zen in catholicism but it is probaly every and nowhere. so also i
will watch out in case jacks catholic whims start invading my
conciousness.
kick your heels
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:28:58 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Happy New Year
well, kids it's been wonderful, sad, tragic, wild, crazy year. this list
has added a lot for me and i want to thank you all for all the great, crazy
and even inane thoughts that have run through the list. always good to get
the brain cells stirred up.
anyway, i wish you all a beatific, wild, crazy, safe new year, and...
live, live, live like mad!!!
ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:30:04 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: ho ho holicay
Patricia - we'll all give hugs in your name. sure wish you were with us.
you can hug david for all of us, when he comes back through. happy new
year! sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 9:00 AM
Subject: ho ho holicay
>I am envious of you all, getting together in calif , sherri give marie a
>hug, james, give sherri a hug. etc. my self i usually don't hug but if
>i see david on his way back to salina i will give him a hug. We have
>been warned to watch out for beat zen signs so, i will watch out, eager
>always to advance the warpage of an old religion. I am not sure that i
>see zen in catholicism but it is probaly every and nowhere. so also i
>will watch out in case jacks catholic whims start invading my
>conciousness.
>kick your heels
>patricia
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:26:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Subject: Happy New year From Buffalo, NY
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I don't know how far this list spans, or how many cultures it touches, but
Happy new year and seasons greetings to each and all. It's been a wacky
year... Full of laughs, tears, hope, some more tears, and I'd just like to
give everyone a great big sloppy kiss from a Drunkard. I'll have a drink
at the fall of the ball and think about everyone who has passed. Join me.
-Bill
[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]
|"An unexamined life is not worth living."
|
| -- Socrates
[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:32:19 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated
In-Reply-To: <75dd107b.34a9f27a@aol.com>
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At 02.21 31/12/97 EST, NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM> wrote:
>hey, dont you guys think Jim Carroll's beat?
>i mean if you're gonna name Lou Reed and Patti Smith "beats", well then...
>
>oh, and why no Dennis Hopper??????
>
>-- Ginny.
>
ginny, grazie (thanks) for yr comments, i consider to expand
the list. why not Kim Gordon (Sonic Youth's singer)?,
again saluti by rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:07:30 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Some Dharma 1997
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>From South China Morning Post
_______
Wednesday December 31 1997
Buddhists free fish to
appease poultry
ANDREA LI
Buddhists freed more than 600 kilograms of live
fish yesterday in an effort to pacify the souls of the
slaughtered chickens.
The Reverend Sik Wing Sing said the worshippers
released a fishing boat's catch worth an estimated
$49,000 off Sai Kung.
"There were lots of fish of all types and sizes. This
is a standard ritual we perform every so often as we
believe the freeing of life will help others," said
Reverend Sik.
The fish-releasing ceremony is performed by
Buddhists twice a year. Yesterday's event involved
more than 150 worshippers.
"By releasing life back into the sea, it will be easier
for animals and humans to come back into the
world," Buddhist Leung Him-tai, 46, said. "In the
wake of the chicken slaughter, it will also help the
chickens die more comfortably and make their
deaths less painful."
Chui Shing-lei, 31, is a regular participant in the
ceremonies. "I know I have done something good.
It is, in essence, freeing and saving someone's life."
Other ceremonies to pacify the souls of the dead
birds will start this morning at Western Monastery
in Lo Wai, Tsuen Wan, and continue for seven
days.
"Dozens of monks will chant poems to send the
souls to peaceful lands," said Foon Wang, a monk
at the monastery.
The prayers will run from 9 am to 11.30 am, and
from 1 pm to 4 pm.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:52:13 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Titanic and Nike
In-Reply-To: <34AA4FF0.F5BD7247@primenet.com>
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If any Beat Listers happen to see the movie TITANIC check for a Nike Swoosh
on the Life Jackets. Did I really see that? Not possible to sit through it
twice.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:22:14 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE
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I am sitting here at the open window bringing to me luscious ocean flavored
breezes drenched in pale sunlight painting moving silver amorphous textures
in the clear sky, saying good bye to another year serenely moving us another
notch closer to the 21st century. Marie is resting with a book in her room.
We are getting ready to join a couple of friends in the first night
festivities downtown Santa Cruz. Indoors and out, entertainment everywhere,
last year there were about 20,000 grown ups and kids greeting the new year
with alcohol free good vibes.
I would like to find some very clever one liner, but all I can think of is
wishes for a year full of Happiness Love and Peace for all of us.
leon
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:29:41 EST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Some Dharma 1997
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that's funny because i heard on the news that they Buddhist monks were singing
chants for the souls of the chickens.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:30:52 EST
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From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Titanic and Nike
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am going to see it soon. will let you know. tll me mmore about where to look.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:36:47 EST
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From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE
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ummm.. that sounds so luscious. i'm so jealous! i'm stuck here in smoggy nyc.
well i'm no good at spontaneous one-liners either, so happy new year's to you
too.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:49:08 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated
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maybe i missed him, but i don't remember seeing rimbaud on there. i think he
deserves to be on there as much as any of those people. and what about marcel
proust? saroyan?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:47:58 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: L'Isola della Certosa.
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friends,
i've the pleasure to present a beautiful web site
developed by Daniele Savio a friend of mine who
is an ecologist devoted to defend the nature against
the damage of the human negligence regard the resource
of our planet. his principal objective is to rescue
the Isola della Certosa near Venice (see the map
linked in the web pages). i hope his efforts 'll have
rewarded during this coming year to create a natural park
in this island at disposal for the people.
--- * ---
L'ISOLA DELLA CERTOSA A VENEZIA.
For beyond 600 years the island was place of religious
installations, initially of the Agostiniani, afterward,
beginning from the 1424, of the Fathers chartreuses,
which, on sketch of Pietro Lombardo, they reconstructed
the church and they widened the complex conventual,
that finished for deal with (like he testifies the
press of Coronelli Vincenzo) the complete surface of the island.
Ample spaces had destined to meadows and planted with trees
avenues and, in distinctive, to the gardens, that, with the
donations of the believers, they contributed to the economic
calm of the religious, consenting those conditions of
essential isolation to the monastic life. Around to the 1820,
with the cancel of the religious Orders, the convent came
completely demolished to exception of the guesthouse,
reformatted to military barracks, and the island was military
custom. The numerous other constructions by now half-destroyed
and invaded from the present botany in the island belongs to
the recent history and results barren of historic or artistic
interest.
web path to a virtual garden in Venice:
http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/intro.htm
http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/spot1.htm
http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/zoom.htm
http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/cert_sto.htm
http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/cert_ide.htm
http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/schede/percintr.htm
http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/schede/percomap.htm
thanks Daniele!
--- * ---
saluti a tutti,
Rinaldo.
-------
31thDec97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:20:02 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Kerouac Reissue on Verve Records!
Mime-Version: 1.0
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We have a scan of the cover, a link to the product, and the latest news at
your fingertips! Go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Happy New Years to all!
Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly....
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:48:05 EST
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Some Dharma 1997
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I am not real sure i see the humor in the monks chanting for the souls of the
chickens. Explain, please?
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:52:56 EST
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From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
------------------------------ Rejected message ------------------------------
Received: by kenyon.edu (MX V4.2 VAX) id 16; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:44:14 EST
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:44:13 EST
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@kenyon.edu>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDY
Message-ID: <009BF97A.A491DA20.16@kenyon.edu>
Subject: Let Dreiser drive...
Excuse me if I mentioned this book before, can't remember if I have but I'd
like to mention the recent re-issue of A HOOSIER HOLIDAY by Theodore Dreiser.
This reprint is nicely done by Indiana University Press and has the original
illustrations of Franklin Booth, who was one of the main artists for the
magazine, the MASSES.
Published originally in 1915, this is one of the first 'road books' ever
produced in America. In this piece, Dreiser decides to take a trip from New
York State back to his home in Indiana with artist Franklin Booth, who is also
a character in this book. They hire a youngkid to drive, who is given the
nikname of "Speed." The book has many close associations with On The Road.
This paricular edition btw, has a forward by Douglas Brinkley. If you have
never cared much for Dreisers writing, let me say that this is the man at his
best, the writing is excellent.
Ever since reading Keroauc's On The Road, I have been interested in travel
books that cross this country via auto. They make nice background reading for
OTR. Also of interest might be FREE AIR, by Sinclair Lewis. This came out in
1917 and is more of a novel than Dreiser's memoir-like Holiday. FREE AIR is
interesting, wort the read if you can find it, it is still another among the
earliest of On The Road books. But by all means, check out A Hoosier Holiday,
five stars.
Cheers in 1998 and to anotheryear of good books!
Dave B.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:05:34 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Let the Good Times Roll
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Happy New Year to all of you.
I'll lift a glass and pass the pipe for the List. Let it rip!
James
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:46:29 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Leon
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Leon wrote:
> I would like to find some very clever one liner, but all I can think of is
> wishes for a year full of Happiness Love and Peace for all of us.
>
> leon
>
Leon:
What could be more clever. Thanks and the same to ya!
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:01:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Help!
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I seem to have been unsubbed from this list. Haven't received a post in
three days. Could somebody please tell me (via private email) how I can
resubscribe?
Thanks.
Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:12:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Help!
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Glenn:
Here is what I know.
> To subscribe, send an email to
> listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu with a blank subject line. In the body of your mail,
type "subscribe
> Beat-L ." There's been some interesting talk there lately.
>
Glenn Cooper wrote:
> I seem to have been unsubbed from this list. Haven't received a post in
> three days. Could somebody please tell me (via private email) how I can
> resubscribe?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Glenn C.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:15:33 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Sorry
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Sorry
I knew it.
James warned me.
But anyway,
I still blew it.
Back channel, back channel, back channel
Is my manta.
Bandwidth wasted,
Sour tasted,
Sorry.
:-)
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:12:16 -0500
Reply-To: cosmicat@holeintheweb.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: cosmicat@HOLEINTHEWEB.COM
Subject: Re: Help!
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Glenn Cooper wrote:
>
> I seem to have been unsubbed from this list. Haven't received a post in
> three days. Could somebody please tell me (via private email) how I can
> resubscribe?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Glenn C.
i think you send the e-mail to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu and put
subscribe beat-l in the body text. if not...ask bill gargan. you might
add your name and e-mail address as well.
later,
michael
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:29:47 -0700
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Leon
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so i was thinking....since new year's eve seems to be a valid excuse to party
all night
(i was looking up at the Arizona stars) and i says well if we all decided to
astral project
simultaneously to a star 100,000 light years from here we could reasonably have
100,000 days in a row of new year's eve parties. see you in the stars everyone
have a happy new year
david rhaesa
somewhere between Arizona and beta antares
R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
> > I would like to find some very clever one liner, but all I can think of is
> > wishes for a year full of Happiness Love and Peace for all of us.
> >
> > leon
> >
> Leon:
>
> What could be more clever. Thanks and the same to ya!
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON>
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 04:04:35 -0500
From:
"L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8c)" <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: File: "BEAT-L LOG9801"
To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:36:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Some Dharma 1997
In-Reply-To: <4137cc00.34aacba7@aol.com>
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>I am not real sure i see the humor in the monks chanting for the souls of the
>chickens. Explain, please?
> GT
Wish I could provide more details, but my understanding is that the monks
released many, many fish back into the sea as a spiritual attonment for the
slaughtering of the chickens. Read a note that they released a ship's catch
of fish. Many hundreds of them.
Here in Madison it will be 1998 in 20 minutes.
My best to you all in the new year.
Peace and justice,
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 02:27:04 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Happy New Year
Comments: To: Rounders List <hmr@olywa.net>,
Loudon List <loudon@world.std.com>,
Irene Apalsch <momandmike@juno.com>,
John D Barton <jdbarton@unm.edu>,
Linda Beck <beckl@milwaukee.tec.wi.us>,
Jim D Deuchars <deuchars@juno.com>, Mary Gardner <rgardner@up.net>,
Bryan Kanieski <JKanieski@aol.com>, Gary Maynard <manog@aol.com>,
George Maynard <chjm47f@prodigy.com>,
Hudson Maynard <maynard5@olypen.com>,
Jack C Maynard <chjm47a@prodigy.com>,
Jackie Maynard <maynardj@ucs.orst.edu>,
Chris Mooney <cmooney@wvu.edu>, Jodie Mooney <jodie@calkinslaw.com>,
Fritz Schuler <goldenrg@lakefield.net>,
Bob Weeth <BWEETH@CENTURYINTER.NET>, Sarah Westbrook <smm@flash.net>,
Ann Wichmann <wichmann@co.dane.wi.us>
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Good morning, America, how are ya?
Just got home from a wonderful gathering of friends, singing in the new
year with guitars, mandolins, fiddle, washboard, harmonica, and conga dru=
m,
laughing, eating, talking, telling stories, and sharing the warmth of
loving friendship with each other. At midnight we all hugged and kissed
and sang "Auld Lang Syne"...starting out with tongue slightly in cheek, b=
ut
by the end the beauty of that fine old Scots song transcended the clich=E9
and drew us all together. And one and all were so sweet, assuring me tha=
t
1998 was going to be a much better year for me. I can't think of a nicer
way I would have wanted to spend tonight.
Wishing all of you, far and wide, the very best of everything in 1998!
Love,
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:21:24 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: BRION GYSIN (WAS Re: Permutation poems)
In-Reply-To: <da18fc3c.34a97634@aol.com>
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At 17.31 30/12/97 EST, Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM> wrote:
>what the heck is a permutation poem? help! i really don't know very much
about
>this sort of stuff and i hate not knowing things. can someone tell me what it
>is in non-technical (read---> layman's) terms and send me a copy of one?
>thanks so much.
>
here an example by brion gysin
http://switch.sjsu.edu/switch/sound/articles/wendt/folder4/ngbg1.htm
RUB OUT THE WRITE WORD
RUB OUT RIGHT WORD THEE
RUB OUT WORD RITE THEE
RUB OUT THE WORD RIGHT
RUB OUT RIGHT THE WORD
RUB OUT WORD THEE WRITE
RUB OUT THE WORD RIGHT OUT
RUB THE RIGHT OUT WORD
RUB THE OUT WORD RIGHT
WORD OUT RIGHT
RIGHT WORD OUT
OUT RIGHT WORD
RUB WORD RIGHT OUT THE
RUB WORD OUT RIGHT THE
RUB WORD THE RIGHT OUT
RIGHT THE OUT
OUT THE RIGHT
THE OUT RIGHT
WORD RUB THE RIGHT OUT
RUB RIGHT OUT THE
OUT RIGHT THE
THE OUT RIGHT
RIGHT THE OUT
OUT THE RIGHT
WORD RIGHT RUB THE OUT
THE
OUT
RUB
THE
OUT
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:50:03 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated
In-Reply-To: <aa5eb9fe.34aabde5@aol.com>
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Buon 1 gennaio 1988,
thanks a lot for yr comments. they remain in my memory.
"My works comprises one vast book like
Proust's except that my remembrances are
written on the run instead of afterwards in
a sick bed."---JACK KEROUAC
saluti a tutti voi da
Rinaldo.
---------------------
At 16.49 31/12/97 EST, Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM> wrote:
>maybe i missed him, but i don't remember seeing rimbaud on there. i think he
>deserves to be on there as much as any of those people. and what about marcel
>proust? saroyan?
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:56:25 EST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
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The other night I watched the series on the 1950's (on tape) presented by the
History Channel. Overall, quite interesting. It was loosely based on David
Halberstam's book, The Fifties.
The next to last segment of the eight hour series focused on Elvis, and on the
Beat Generation. Pretty good stuff - interviews with Joyce Johnson and Allen
Ginsberg among others. At the very end of the segment, host Roger Mudd
commented that Kerouac differed from many of the Beats because he
disassociated himself from the "rampant anti-Americanism of the 1960's". Then
he added, "Kerouac appeared at a rally where Allen Ginsberg was passing out
American flags to be burned. Kerouac retreved the flags and neatly folded
them."
!! W H A T !! This is pure bullshit that Mudd probably heard at a right-wing
cocktail party and then passed on, via national television, to millions of
people. None of the many biographers (about 10) of Kerouac or Ginsberg ever
described anything like this flag burning rally. Instead, the source for
Mudd's fantasy undoubtedly is the often described incedent when Ken Kesey and
the Merry Pranksters paid Kerouac a visit in 1964. Amidst the partying of the
Pranksters, Kerouac did notice an American flag lying around (perhaps the
floor, or on a chair or couch). The flag was probably being used as a scarf
or cape by one of the colorful Pranksters, something that was uncommon in
1964. Kerouac considered this disrespectful and he did neatly fold the flag
and set it aside. He left shortly thereafter and was never a fan of the
Pranksters. Various biographers have different spins on the incident, but
what the foregoing is pretty much the consensus as reported by eyewitnesses.
I don't know if Allen Ginsberg ever was into burning flags. I doubt it, given
his lifelong sense for PR and the fact that flag burning was outlawed until
the 1980's.
What should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is
highly paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts than used
toilet paper. He can spin history anyway he wants but to report an incident
based on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.
Does anyone know where I could write Mudd, Halberstam, or the History
Channel?
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:02:20 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: afternoon blues today
In-Reply-To: <aa5eb9fe.34aabde5@aol.com>
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i called you at 11 pm
(sure)
the cold (of course)
persons
don't know
the sound is an antithief device
than
a carol
be happy! BE HAPPY!!
---
rinaldo
31thdec98
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:00:44 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Sorry
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Bentz--Happy new year. What did I warn you about? You are welcome to
all the bandwidth you ant!
James
R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Sorry
>
> I knew it.
> James warned me.
> But anyway,
> I still blew it.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:51:35 PST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: happy holidays and a good year to all
Content-Type: text/plain
hi all:
my 1998 is going to be a kickass one, it is starting out, or i should
say it started back in 87 when i got off the train and leon was there to
greet me!
adventures abound.
expect some stuff after i get home. whhooooeeee.
marie
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:03:41 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated
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> AT that rate why not Villon?
How far to extend this is Rinaldo's problem, thank god
James
> At 16.49 31/12/97 EST, Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM> wrote:
> >maybe i missed him, but i don't remember seeing rimbaud on there. i think he
> >deserves to be on there as much as any of those people. and what about marcel
> >proust? saroyan?
> >
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:01:28 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: ho ho holicay
Content-Type: text/plain
dear patricia, we will keep the hugs rolling. leon here too - lots of
hugging to do.
the best of the best to you!
mc
>
>I am envious of you all, getting together in calif , sherri give marie
a
>hug, james, give sherri a hug. etc. my self i usually don't hug but
if
>i see david on his way back to salina i will give him a hug. We have
>been warned to watch out for beat zen signs so, i will watch out, eager
>always to advance the warpage of an old religion. I am not sure that i
>see zen in catholicism but it is probaly every and nowhere. so also i
>will watch out in case jacks catholic whims start invading my
>conciousness.
>kick your heels
>patricia
>
______________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:59:02 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: happy holidays and a good year to all
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>hi all:
>my 1998 is going to be a kickass one, it is starting out, or i should
>say it started back in 87 when i got off the train and leon was there to
>greet me!
>adventures abound.
>expect some stuff after i get home. whhooooeeee.
>marie
Did you notice you wrote 87 in the above? Now, I know you haven't been out
there 10 years already! As for myself, I keep seeing 1998 and thinking
that's not right, it's supposed to be 88.
Yes, a year full of adventure, creativity and growth for everyone!
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:20:06 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
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Howard---
im sure the Hist.Channel has email, ya know? like,
"comments@historychannel.com" or something. perhapsjust watch for their
advertisements or something. not too hard to find, im sure. that was the 1
episode i missed of that series. :(
-Ginny
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:37:42 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> Jack Kerouac and Thomas Wolfe have been criticized for being story
> tellers, or just writing down what happened. It seems to me that there
> is a large element of fiction involved, more than most would like to
> see, but it all is based on reality.
>
> My question is this, my life and the lifes of most people I know have
> some exciting moments, but generally are full of daily routine. If
> Jack's work is mostly autobiographical, that is actually just telling
> what happened, wouldn't that take a writer of greater statute to be able
> to make everyday life so full, so true and such an inspiration. I think
> it would, because he would have to actually see, and not imagine. What
> do you think?
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
BENTZ: It's taken me a long time to reply to this E but of course Jack
was a great writer who could endow his words with magic. And what's
wrong with being a story-teller. Our greatest writers are nothing but
story-tellers. I'd rather read a story than a stock proposal. I know
Jack wrote what he saw and felt. He had the same kind of dedication to
truth that I now have. --Al
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:48:57 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg interview
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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> I don't recall seeing this posted to the Beat-L before, but I thought
> this was a cool discussion of Dylan's impact on Allen by Allen. Notice
> that darned ole Charles Plymell was right in the middle of this thing.
> I got this off an old post to the Dylan list.
>
> > Q: Can you tell us how you met Bob Dylan and
> > what your earliest impressions of him were?
> >
> > AG: My earliest impressions of Dylan were, uh,
> > on returning from India... My earliest
> > impressions of Dylan were, on returning from
> > India via San Francisco, a young poet, Charlie
> > Plimel[?], took me aside at a party in Belinas[?]
> > and played me some records from a new young
> > singer, folk singer, and it was the "Masters of
> > War," I think, and "I'll Stand," uh, "I'll Know
> > My Song Well Before I Start Singing," and "I'll
> > Stand on the Sea Where All Can Reflect or
> > Mountain Where All Can Reflect It." And I was
> > really amazed. It seemed to me that the torch
> > had been passed, sort of, from, uh, Kerouac or
> > from the, uh, beat, uh, genius on to another
> > generation completely, who had taken it, uh, and
> > he'd taken it and made something completely
> > original out of it, and that life was in good
> > hands. I remember bursting into tears. Because
> > the, uh, proclamation of confidence was so
> > certain and, uh, the, uh, humility was apparent,
> > and at the same time the confidence in, uh, his
> > own voice or his own inspiration, which is, I
> > think, some of the secret of genius which is, uh,
> > like in Whitman: "I celebrate myself and sing
> > myself. What I shall assume, you shall assume."
> > That confidence of self-acceptance, or
> > self-empowerment, the empowerment. Uh, so I
> > heard just that first record, and I was pretty
> > amazed by it. Then, uh, cause, you know, we had
> > learned from earlier people. I had learned from
> > William Carlos Williams and William Burroughs,
> > who was much older, and, uh, every generation
> > produces its own spontaneous genius, sort of. So
> > it seemed to me that somebody had emerged with
> > their own, out of cocoon, with their own life,
> > with their own scepter, so to speak. Then, uh, I
> > got to New York with Peter Orlovsky, and we were
> > staying at the, it's, uh, above, upstairs from
> > the Eighth Street Bookstore, which was at that
> > time a big, interesting, intelligent bookstore, Uh, really
> > admirable -for, for, for journalism it was a
> > really well-researched and even piece at a time
> > when, uh, the notion, the journalistic idea was
> > beatniks, it was cockroaches, and, uh, dirty
> > houses and uh, some idiot, uh, media idea
> > ignoring the literature and ignoring the actual
> > brilliance of the people like Kerouac or
> > Burroughs or Gary Snyder or others. So in '59,
> > Aronowitz had written a very good series. And
> > he'd actually gone to the West Coast, interviewed
> > Michael McClure, Neal Cassidy, uh, the poet Gary
> > Snyder I think, or friends of Snyder, Snyder was
> > in Japan. Maybe Philip Whalen he saw and uh,
> > McClure turned him on to some grass which
> > enriched his account of, uh, serialized account
> > of the poets. So Aronowitz I had known for four
> > or five years and Aronowitz brought Dylan to a
> > welcome party. Peter and I had been around the
> > world actually and spent a year and a half in
> > India. And I'd spent some time in Japan in a Zen
> > setting with Gary Snyder and then come back to a
> > big poetry conference in Vancouver and then spent
> > time in San Francisco, heard Dylan on the radio,
> > on the phonograph and then got to New York, got a
> > welcome home party and that was the night that
> > Dylan had come from the Emergency Civil Liberties
> > Committee banquet and had renounced any role as
> > sort of a political prophet for them, and that is
> > a left wing, uh, what, folk, uh, fighter for
> > causes. I don't think he wanted to be limited to
> > that view and that perspective. And so I
> > remember coming up the stairs and meeting him and
> > I was really interested, because I'd seen, heard
> > his language. And he was kind of mysterious, but
> > one of the first things he said is he had
> > explained, uh, uh, he had not obeyed what their
> > idea was and they were shocked and horrified.
> > But he felt that he had to make his own statement
> > and have his own independence rather than being a
> > replica of, uh, folk song hero, conforming to
> > their expectations as somebody in, responding to
> > every civil liberties case, every case of
> > discrimination, every strike, the traditional
> > sing outs, folk music, left wing party line. And
> > I thought it was pretty smart of him, though, he
> > may have not had the skillful means to do it in
> > which a way that encouraged them to do what they
> > wanted to do
> >
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
BENTZ: Yeah, I was t he invisible man in those days, working behind the
scenes to pull everyone of like minds together. I was invisible so they
all overlooked me, took me for granted and eventually were too quick to
write me off. --Al
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:07:47 -0500
Reply-To: "eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "D. Patrick Hornberger" <"eastwind@erols.com"@EROLS.COM>
Organization: EASTWIND PUBLISHING
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
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Hpark4 wrote:
>
> The other night I watched the series on the 1950's (on tape) presented by the
> History Channel. Overall, quite interesting. It was loosely based on David
> Halberstam's book, The Fifties.
>
> The next to last segment of the eight hour series focused on Elvis, and on the
> Beat Generation. Pretty good stuff - interviews with Joyce Johnson and Allen
> Ginsberg among others. At the very end of the segment, host Roger Mudd
> commented that Kerouac differed from many of the Beats because he
> disassociated himself from the "rampant anti-Americanism of the 1960's". Then
> he added, "Kerouac appeared at a rally where Allen Ginsberg was passing out
> American flags to be burned. Kerouac retreved the flags and neatly folded
> them."
>
> !! W H A T !! This is pure bullshit that Mudd probably heard at a right-wing
> cocktail party and then passed on, via national television, to millions of
> people. None of the many biographers (about 10) of Kerouac or Ginsberg ever
> described anything like this flag burning rally. Instead, the source for
> Mudd's fantasy undoubtedly is the often described incedent when Ken Kesey and
> the Merry Pranksters paid Kerouac a visit in 1964. Amidst the partying of the
> Pranksters, Kerouac did notice an American flag lying around (perhaps the
> floor, or on a chair or couch). The flag was probably being used as a scarf
> or cape by one of the colorful Pranksters, something that was uncommon in
> 1964. Kerouac considered this disrespectful and he did neatly fold the flag
> and set it aside. He left shortly thereafter and was never a fan of the
> Pranksters. Various biographers have different spins on the incident, but
> what the foregoing is pretty much the consensus as reported by eyewitnesses.
>
> I don't know if Allen Ginsberg ever was into burning flags. I doubt it, given
> his lifelong sense for PR and the fact that flag burning was outlawed until
> the 1980's.
>
> What should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is
> highly paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts than used
> toilet paper. He can spin history anyway he wants but to report an incident
> based on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.
>
> Does anyone know where I could write Mudd, Halberstam, or the History
> Channel?
>
> Howard Park
Hold On --it seems to me Ginsberg told that story some place --- I would
be careful drawing quick conclusions on JK when it come to
Patriotism--actually the event and JK's response sounds like him---
anti-patriotism was not a paert of beats ---anti-government was.
Let me know if you find the Ginsberg reference
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:23:56 EST
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From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
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Steve Turner's Angel Headed Hipster on page 200 has a few photo's of Jack
wearing the flag bandana around his neck while smoking a joint and looking
very goofy and out of it. The photo is credited to Ron Bevirt who I believe
was one of the Pranksters and is dated June 1964, New York. In one of the
photo's you can see what appears to be a movie camera on a tri-pod. As Kesey
filmed a lot of that trip I wonder if video exists of that party?
Jerry Cimino
Fog City
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:25:41 EST
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From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Some Dharma 1997
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i didn't mean that the monks' chants were humourous, but that it was a funny
coincidence that i heard about it from you right after i had just heard about
it on the news.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:41:51 EST
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Subject: Re: Question
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i don't understand why they should be criticized for being strytellers or
'just writing down the facts'. both of those are good things.the ability to
tell a good story is great for the heart head and bottom line.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:59:45 -0500
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From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Some Dharma 1997
In-Reply-To: <v0311070ab0d0cd18d7e4@[156.46.45.120]>
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I saw a picture of a monk heaving fish into the sea. I
like the verisimilitude of it. A few foul off the earth,
a few fish cast into the sea. The monks had the right idea.
It adds a funny twist to an already somewhat funny story, of
orientals driven into a chicken-killing frenzy by a malignant
disease that is threatening their lives! To add a religious
element to this is to put icing on the cake.
Mike Rice
At 11:36 PM 12/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>I am not real sure i see the humor in the monks chanting for the souls of
the
>>chickens. Explain, please?
>> GT
>
>Wish I could provide more details, but my understanding is that the monks
>released many, many fish back into the sea as a spiritual attonment for the
>slaughtering of the chickens. Read a note that they released a ship's catch
>of fish. Many hundreds of them.
>
>Here in Madison it will be 1998 in 20 minutes.
>
>My best to you all in the new year.
>
>Peace and justice,
>
>j grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:54:52 EST
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From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
Comments: cc: eastwind@erols.com
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In response to Mr. Hornberger -
The point is pretty simple. The incident Mr. Mudd described never happened.
Period. Whet people make up or repeat stories that are untrue, for political
or other purposes, they should be held up to ridicule.
It is quite a stretch to equate the real episide - Kerouac's respect for the
flag he found at the Prankster party, with what Mudd described "Ginsberg was
at a rally passing out American flags to be burned..." The two situations are
very, very different.
The real point of Mudd's fantasy is a very political one. Mudd equates the
anti-war and counter-cultural movements with anti-americanism. That still
resonates on many of the issues of today. Certain right-wingers also accused
George McGovern, Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton of flag burning - without
any evidence whatsoever. None. Burning the flag is an anti-american action,
a very powerful symbolic action, especially for older generations. What Mudd
was trying to get accross was that Allen Ginsberg, who can no longer speak for
himself, was some sort of flag burning commie. That is simply untrue.
Ginsberg had the honor of being kicked out of Cuba and communist
Czechoslovakia. Ginsberg loved America every bit as much as Kerouac, although
AG was undoubtedly way to the left of Kerouac and the American mainstream.
Again, I've read all the major bios of Kerouac, one of the most extensively
researched figures of the recent past. Nothing like the incident Mudd
described is in any of the bios. Facts and truth do matter.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:44:24 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
In-Reply-To: <3b18a2f9.34abcabb@aol.com>
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Sure, I wrote something like www.historychannel.com and said
I loved the Fifties. I'm a little worried that you say you saw
the Fifties the other day, since my own TV schedule said they
were running the whole 8 hours today (Thurs) from 11 a.m. to
7 p.m. today. I'm taping it while we speak. I have heard
the story about Kerouac and the flag somewhere, also. I
probably heard Mudd tell the story you find untrue. Jack
wasn't a hippie, nor was he on the Bus. I don't think it
hurts his legacy that he did not want to party with Wavy
Gravy.
Mike Rice
At 11:56 AM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote:
>The other night I watched the series on the 1950's (on tape) presented by
the
>History Channel. Overall, quite interesting. It was loosely based on David
>Halberstam's book, The Fifties.
>
>The next to last segment of the eight hour series focused on Elvis, and on
the
>Beat Generation. Pretty good stuff - interviews with Joyce Johnson and Allen
>Ginsberg among others. At the very end of the segment, host Roger Mudd
>commented that Kerouac differed from many of the Beats because he
>disassociated himself from the "rampant anti-Americanism of the 1960's".
Then
>he added, "Kerouac appeared at a rally where Allen Ginsberg was passing out
>American flags to be burned. Kerouac retreved the flags and neatly folded
>them."
>
>!! W H A T !! This is pure bullshit that Mudd probably heard at a right-wing
>cocktail party and then passed on, via national television, to millions of
>people. None of the many biographers (about 10) of Kerouac or Ginsberg ever
>described anything like this flag burning rally. Instead, the source for
>Mudd's fantasy undoubtedly is the often described incedent when Ken Kesey and
>the Merry Pranksters paid Kerouac a visit in 1964. Amidst the partying of
the
>Pranksters, Kerouac did notice an American flag lying around (perhaps the
>floor, or on a chair or couch). The flag was probably being used as a scarf
>or cape by one of the colorful Pranksters, something that was uncommon in
>1964. Kerouac considered this disrespectful and he did neatly fold the flag
>and set it aside. He left shortly thereafter and was never a fan of the
>Pranksters. Various biographers have different spins on the incident, but
>what the foregoing is pretty much the consensus as reported by eyewitnesses.
>
>I don't know if Allen Ginsberg ever was into burning flags. I doubt it,
given
>his lifelong sense for PR and the fact that flag burning was outlawed until
>the 1980's.
>
>What should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is
>highly paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts than
used
>toilet paper. He can spin history anyway he wants but to report an incident
>based on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.
>
>Does anyone know where I could write Mudd, Halberstam, or the History
>Channel?
>
>Howard Park
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:41:51 -0500
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At 05:41 PM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote:
>i don't understand why they should be criticized for being strytellers or
>'just writing down the facts'. both of those are good things.the ability to
>tell a good story is great for the heart head and bottom line.
>
>
Who is being cricized for being a storyteller.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:06:25 -0500
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From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems (fwd)
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This was Florian's response, which I think people might find interesting.
Neil
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:13:01 +0100 (MET)
From: Florian Cramer <cantsin@zedat.fu-berlin.de>
To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
> There are Gysin permutation poems in _The Exterminator_, which was
> published in 1960:
>
> TITLE: The exterminator / William Burroughs, Brion Gysin. -
> IMPRINT: San Francisco : Auerhahn Press, 1960.
> NOTES: Narrative and poems. * Poems and calligraphs by Brion Gysin.
> LANGUAGE: eng
> PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: 51 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
> ASSOCIATED NAME(S): Gysin, Brion. * Haselwood, Dave L. - Book designer. *
> Haselwood, Dave L. - Printer. * McIlroy, James F. - Printer. *
> Auerhahn Press - Private Press.
Thanks very much for this reference. I will check out immediately whether
I can get it here in Berlin.
>
> Can you give a reference where I could find information about this?
> The first book Burroughs wrote/assembled using fold-in texts-- _The Soft
> Machine_ -- appeared in 1961 from The Olympia Press in Paris.
Then I was mistaken. Marc Saporta's novel "Composition No.1" appeared in
1962, Paris, Editions du Seuil.
> Certainly does. The 100,000 sonnet book gets a lot of attention from
> people doing work on hypertext theory and literature. And yes, both
> Burroughs and Gysin were living in Paris in the early 60's.
I know there has been a lot of research on Oulipo (=Queneau, Perec et.al.)
combinatorics, but I wonder whether anyone has researched yet the
interrelatedness of Gysin's/Burroughs', Saporta's, Queneau's and Moles'
approaches to combinatory literature which all happened to be
conceptualized around 1960 and in France.
By the way, permutation poetry itself is much older than this. The
earliest examples date back to the late Roman empire (Publilius Optatianus
Porfyrius' Carmen XXV consists of five lines with each five words; the
words permute against each other and from line to line. Porfyrius lived in
the around 330 A.D.; his complete poems are published in a two volume
book: Pvblilii Optatiani Porfyrii, Carmina, Torino: Paravia publ., 1973.)
> Hope I've been of some assistance.
>
Thanks a lot for your help!
Florian
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:09:16 -0500
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From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
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On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Aeronwytru wrote:
> what the heck is a permutation poem? help! i really don't know very much about
> this sort of stuff and i hate not knowing things. can someone tell me what it
> is in non-technical (read---> layman's) terms and send me a copy of one?
> thanks so much.
The easiest way to find out what a permutation poem is to read one. Here's
a Gysin permutation poem that appears in The Exterminator:
RUB OUT THE WORDS
RUB OUT THE
WORDS RUB OUT
THE WORDS RUB
OUT THE WORDS
RUB OUT THE WORDS
RUB THE WORDS OUT
RUB WORDS THEE OUT
RUB OUT WORDS THEE
RUB THE OUT WORDS
RUB WORDS OUT THEE
OUT THE WORDS RUB
OUT WORDS RUB THEE
OUT RUB WORDS THEE
OUT THEE RUB WORDS
OUT WORDS RUB THEE
OUT RUB THE WORDS
THE WORDS RUB OUT
THEE RUB WORDS OUT
THE OUT RUB WORDS
THE WORDS OUT RUB
THE RUB OUT WORDS
THE OUT WORDS RUB
WORDS RUB OUT THEE
WORDS OUT RUT THEE
WORDS THEE OUT RUB
WORDS RUB THEE OUT
WORDS OUT THEE RUB
WORDS THEE RUB OUT
Brion Gysin
And here's my favourite poem of this genre, which isn't really a
permutation poem per se, but a combninatorial one at the letter level. It
appeared in Nichol's first book bp from Coach House, 1967:
turnips are
inturps are
urnspit are
tinspur are
rustpin are
stunrip are
piturns are
ritpuns are
punstir are
nutrips are
suntrip are
untrips are
spinrut are
runspit are
pitnurs are
runtsip are
puntsir are
turnsip are
tipruns are
turpsin are
spurtin
bpNichol
Although the modus operandi and overriding concerns of Burroughs/Gysin and
the concretists are often strikingly similar, their aims are widely
disparate. For Burroughs the word is a viral agent of control, and
language its medium of exchange. Cut-ups, collage, and gestural
calligraphy were all attempts at finding freedom outside of language, a
non-linguistic freedom in silence. Nichol was a self-professed lover of
language and alphabet fetishist with an interest in language at play in
all its forms: aural, semantic, tonal, visual. His work is more
investigative, irreverent and celebratory, while Burroughs was deadly
serious and perceived his work as dangerous, urgent and combative.
Just some random thoughts on different, compelling artists whose central
concern was language itself.
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:17:51 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
Comments: cc: Florian Cramer <cantsin@zedat.fu-berlin.de>
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I've done a little looking into the permutation poems of Brion Gysin in
the source materials I have. Here is a preliminary report:
>From Ted Morgan's "Literary Outlaw": "Minutes to Go" was published in
March 1960 in Paris and included permutation poems by Gysin. The only
specific one mentioned is "Rub out the Word." I don't have Minutes to Go,
so I can't tell you what else is there.
I do have a copy of "The Exterminator", published later in 1960. It
contains poems that permute the phrases "WHO SENDS THE MAN?", "KICK THAT
HABIT MAN", "JUNK IS NO GOOD BABY", "CAN MOTHER BE WRONG?", "SHORT TIME TO
GO", "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD", "RUB OUT THE WORDS", and "PROCLAIM
PRESENT TIME OVER". After the Rub out the Words permutation poem, there is
another poem also called Rub out the Words, which is laid out identically
with the first, but uses typographic symbols instead of words, where
rub = #, out = $, the = %, words = &. The book closes with the straight
Rub out the Word poem, then the typographic symbol poem, then "Proclaim
Present Time Over", and finishes with 4 Gysin calligraphic works, which
are gestural permutations of calligraphic strokes. The idea, as far as I
can tell, is that Gysin rubs out the word by first permutating phrases so
that they lose any singular meaning, becoming merely an arrangement
yielding polysemous underpinnings when mixed; and secondly by a semiotic
shift to typographic symbols, which shifts the signifier/signified
relationship from letter-phonetic based representations with their aural
basis to a purely visual sign. The word is finally rubbed out when words
are lost to calligraphy without meaning, writing without communication,
signifiers without a signified.
>From the Brion Gysin CD "Mektoub": "In 1960 Gysin was asked to present
sound works for a broadcast on the BBC. Among those recorded for the event
were 'i am that i am', 'recalling all active agents', and the 'pistol
poem' which differed by permutating recordings of a gun firing from
varying distances." All three BBC recordings from 1960 appear on the CD.
The two poems with words start with Gysin reading the permutated poems,
and then the reading itself is permutated by tape splices, speed-ups and
slow downs. The CD was produced by Perdition Plastics 4216 N.Damen Chicago
Il 60618 USA Fax 312.327.3887
I have a chap-book called "A William Burroughs Birthday Book" (1994,
Temple Press, ISBN 1-871744-90-3) that has two relevant essays/stories.
One is called "William Burroughs: a biological mistake" by Simon Strong.
He briefly mentions the connection between Gysin/Burroughs and Oulipo as a
topic worthy of further investigation: "The very least that Mr [Martin]
Gardner deserves is a mention here since it is my express intention to
shamelessly plagiarize the vast majority of this essay from his 1952 book
'(Fads and Fallacies) in the Name of Science'. Mr Gardner and his work
were, and still are, highly regarded by the members of Oulipo, the Ouvroir
de Litterature Potentielle. This was a circle of literary experimenters
founded in Paris in 1960 which would appear to have a number of
culture-spatial co-ordinates in common with Mr. Burroughs as well as
sharing geographical and chronological criteria. To my knowledge the one
has never passed comment on the other, nor vice-versa. If anyone reading
this essay has any ideas or information concerning this matter I would be
most interested to be a party to it."
There is another essay/story called "Nothing is True. Everything is
Permuted: The Last Words of Hassan I Sabbah" by Paul Cecil that is of
interest. The entire piece is an exploration of Gysin's thoughts on
permutations, drawing from many sources, most notably "The Process" and
"Here to Go". This is a must read. Paul Cecil then goes on to include
permutation poems using Gysin/Burroughs phrases and a formula of his own
devising. The chap-book was edited by Paul Cecil and has this in the
Biographical Notes:
"For a full catalogue of all Temple Press publications, or to contact any
of the contributors to this project, please send an s.a.e or International
Reply Coupon to:
Temple Press, PO Box 227, Brighton, Sussex BN2 3GL.
(Phone: 0273 679129 / Fax: 0273 621284)"
The book "Here to Go: Planet R101" has 6 listings under "permutations" in
the index, and from the number of references Cecil made in his essay, it
sounds like "The Process" will have many more. Here to Go also includes a
Gysin permutation poem that permutes the line
"ADEBC 14523 .$#-("
in three columns all the way down the page.
Please feel free to contact me for any clarifications, or if you have
specific questions about any of the books listed above that I have (Here
to Go, The Exterminator, A William Burroughs Birthday Book).
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:22:00 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.96.971227210531.18998A-100000@komma.fddi2.fu-berlin.de>
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One thing I forgot to mention when I posted the Gysin permutation poem
from The Exterminator-- There was a very interesting typo that was in the
second line of the "WORD" stanza in the original that I reproduced:
[snip]
WORDS RUB OUT THEE
WORDS OUT RUT THEE
WORDS THEE OUT RUB
WORDS RUB THEE OUT
WORDS OUT THEE RUB
WORDS THEE RUB OUT
[snip]
A lot of interesting conclusions can be drawn from that one!
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:29:17 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
In-Reply-To: <da18fc3c.34a97634@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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One thing I forgot to mention when I posted the Gysin permutation poem
from The Exterminator--there was a very interesting typo that was in the
second line of the "WORD" stanza in the original that I reproduced
faithfully:
[snip]
WORDS RUB OUT THEE
WORDS OUT RUT THEE
WORDS THEE OUT RUB
WORDS RUB THEE OUT
WORDS OUT THEE RUB
WORDS THEE RUB OUT
[snip]
A lot of interesting conclusions can be drawn from that one, and as
Burroughs always said, there's no such thing as a coincidence.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:38:36 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Question
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I think that goes back to an old post that I made. The point was that "critics"
were critical of Thomas Wolfe and Jack Kerouac for "just being storytellers or
reporters" and lacking originality. Al Aronowitz made a belated reply saying
that it didn't matter that writers were just story tellers anyway and that Jack
pursued the truth. I belive the post that you refer to was merely stating that
the critics were wrong or unfair.
But if a thread were to get started on the writer as reporter/story teller, I
think it could prove interesting.
mike rice wrote:
> At 05:41 PM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote:
> >i don't understand why they should be criticized for being strytellers or
> >'just writing down the facts'. both of those are good things.the ability to
> >tell a good story is great for the heart head and bottom line.
> >
> >
> Who is being cricized for being a storyteller.
>
> Mike Rice
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:03:52 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Question
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<HTML>
Bentz and all
<P>This may be an old thread that I just rediscovered in Mr. Aronowitz's
response to it. I would argue that while JK and TW write very much
about "real life" they select away the daily drugery or compress it to
focus on the more interesting aspects of that life. Were they to
have kept an hour by hour record of those lives they would no doubt be
still wonderfully rendered, but a good deal nearer to the ordinariness
of our own.
<P>James Stauffer
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
<BR>.
<BR>>
<BR>> My question is this, my life and the lifes of most people I know
have
<BR>> some exciting moments, but generally are full of daily routine.
If
<BR>> Jack's work is mostly autobiographical, that is actually just telling
<BR>> what happened, wouldn't that take a writer of greater statute to
be able
<BR>> to make everyday life so full, so true and such an inspiration.
I think
<BR>> it would, because he would have to actually see, and not imagine.
What
<BR>> do you think?
<BR><A HREF="http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj"></A> </BLOCKQUOTE>
</HTML>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:06:41 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
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Jerry
I am quite sure that film of the event is probably in the Pranskter archive.
You
might check the Kesey website to see if it is available on video.
James
Bigsurs4me wrote:
> Steve Turner's Angel Headed Hipster on page 200 has a few photo's of Jack
> wearing the flag bandana around his neck while smoking a joint and looking
> very goofy and out of it. The photo is credited to Ron Bevirt who I believe
> was one of the Pranksters and is dated June 1964, New York. In one of the
> photo's you can see what appears to be a movie camera on a tri-pod. As Kesey
> filmed a lot of that trip I wonder if video exists of that party?
>
> Jerry Cimino
> Fog City
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:00:20 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
Content-Type: text/plain
h hey, hello jerry. found yr email online. if things are possible for
visit, please give a holler to countyman@hotmail.com.\would really like
to get in touch with you. in frisco and then redwoods until some time
monday. don't leave until 15. reading on the 8th. get in touch and yes,
everyone here, thanks for the use of the bandwidth.
mc
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Thu Jan 1 14:28:28 1998
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>Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:23:56 EST
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
>Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Steve Turner's Angel Headed Hipster on page 200 has a few photo's of
Jack
>wearing the flag bandana around his neck while smoking a joint and
looking
>very goofy and out of it. The photo is credited to Ron Bevirt who I
believe
>was one of the Pranksters and is dated June 1964, New York. In one of
the
>photo's you can see what appears to be a movie camera on a tri-pod. As
Kesey
>filmed a lot of that trip I wonder if video exists of that party?
>
>Jerry Cimino
>Fog City
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:29:17 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: the fifties series on History channel
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>
> What should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is
> highly paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts than used
> toilet paper. He can spin history anyway he wants but to report an incident
> based on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.
>
> Does anyone know where I could write Mudd, Halberstam, or the History
> Channel?
>
> Howard Park
howard:
You may want to see if you can find out who the writer/director was of
the series, he may be more responsible for said error than mr. Mudd.
Mr. Mudd is a reporter, most of the time just reading what someone else
writes for him. He's got the talented face and voice, and more than
likely was just used as a 'talking head' for the series. Don't blame
him, blame the newswriters and the fact checkers (if there were any).
And once again, another fine example on why I did not go into journalism
as a career.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:32:15 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: marie's overly-long stay in california
Comments: To: mcountyman@hotmail.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>
> Subject:
> happy holidays and a good year to all
> Date:
> Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:51:35 PST
> From:
> marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
>
>
> hi all:
> my 1998 is going to be a kickass one, it is starting out, or i should
> say it started back in 87 when i got off the train and leon was there to
> greet me!
> adventures abound.
> expect some stuff after i get home. whhooooeeee.
> marie
So, marie,
am I to understand that you've been living at Leon's since 1987??????
So, Leon, how has it felt to have marie around for eleven years????
(Just kidding guys)
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:41:50 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Elm Street in Tempe
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Public thanks to Jo Grant for connecting me with a wonderful couple
Chris and Bil here in the Valley.
A lovely evening spent chatting over coffee and gardens of sound and
thoughts and chili peppers.
heading back to the Heartland tomorrow...will probably be at the
Beat-Hotel in Lawrence by
Sunday night or Monday afternoon.
Isn't 1998 off to a great beginning! It's probably the best 1998 i can
remember
david rhaesa
there will be peace in the valley fa la la la la blah blah blah
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:50:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TRICIA PORTER <tporter5@WEBER.EDU>
Subject: Some Dharma 1997 -Reply
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
thanks honey. that is interesting. i'm not sure how freeing fish, will help
the chickens death less painfull. i'll have to read more on this.
love tp
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:46:13 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Some Dharma 1997 -Reply
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1998 and some things never change. Love blooms on the Beat-L and more posters
join the group triple checking their "Reply to" addresses. Just be assured
you
are in good company.
James Stauffer
TRICIA PORTER wrote:
> thanks honey. that is interesting. i'm not sure how freeing fish, will help
> the chickens death less painfull. i'll have to read more on this.
>
> love tp
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:48:29 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Hard to find WSB book
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Hi everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to be pretty
interesting. So here's a question I hope you guys could help me w/-
A little while ago, I found a Burroughs book called..... something.... of
course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore so I'd never be able to find
it again. It was very small, had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you
turned it over and backwards it was in German. It started out going on about
how "language is a virus" and went on like that. I wish I could remember more,
but it's been a while, and no one else I've checked w/ seems to know.
And while I'm asking- do you guys think that when reading JK books (the
autobiographical novels, I mean) you should follow the chronological order?
I've been wondering about this. I read "Big Sur" after the "Dharma Bums", and
though that's the right order, there's about 4 yrs difference in copyright
dates... I know I missed *something*. I know I *should* read them as seperate
books, but then I always start wondering which name stands for which name, so
I'm not really reading it as fiction anyway.
Oh, and how about Jim Morrison as Beat? He refers to Beat poets a number of
times (although never to himself as one), and influenced Jim Carroll a lot
too.
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:30:32 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Hard to find WSB book
MIME-Version: 1.0
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i think you're talking about "Electronic Revolution" or something like that.
read it while listening to Captain Beefheart's Safe As Milk
and the virus will feel fairly safe indeed
david rhaesa
soon headed to the Beat-Hotel
Zucchini4 wrote:
> Hi everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to be pretty
> interesting. So here's a question I hope you guys could help me w/-
> A little while ago, I found a Burroughs book called..... something.... of
> course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore so I'd never be able to find
> it again. It was very small, had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you
> turned it over and backwards it was in German. It started out going on about
> how "language is a virus" and went on like that. I wish I could remember more,
> but it's been a while, and no one else I've checked w/ seems to know.
>
> And while I'm asking- do you guys think that when reading JK books (the
> autobiographical novels, I mean) you should follow the chronological order?
> I've been wondering about this. I read "Big Sur" after the "Dharma Bums", and
> though that's the right order, there's about 4 yrs difference in copyright
> dates... I know I missed *something*. I know I *should* read them as seperate
> books, but then I always start wondering which name stands for which name, so
> I'm not really reading it as fiction anyway.
>
> Oh, and how about Jim Morrison as Beat? He refers to Beat poets a number of
> times (although never to himself as one), and influenced Jim Carroll a lot
> too.
>
> --Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:39:44 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Hard to find WSB book
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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David, You never cease to amaze...you old ZigZagWanderer!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:12:33 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: And the Beat Goes On and On--via Tempe, AZ
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
David,
What a pleasure to hear that the folks at 1603 found you as interesting and
charming in person as I have via the List. Perhaps someday our paths will
cross, out there, on the road.
j grant
>
>Dear Joe --
>
>Thank you for introducing us to David Rhaesa! We enjoyed his presence, his
>stories, his perspective, and found much in common.
>
>We introduced David to our phase conjugate model of consciousness. Most
>people find it a bit abstract, but David found it paralleled his thoughts
>on the subject. We provided a few pieces of the puzzle that weren't
>available to Burroughs, Kerouac, Ginsberg, Leary, and Watts. It'll be very
>interesting to see what David does with this material!
>
>We spent 4-1/2 hours together on the Event Horizon, where cultural frames
>of reference dissolve and the barriers between individuals become receptor
>sites for new World Views; where God becomes your Friend, not an abstract
>Court of Judgment.
>
>We gained a sense of our larger kinship beyond Time and Space. David
>arrived as a stranger, but left as an old friend. We fondly remember a
>time when WE first arrived at the front door of 1603 as strangers, and
>found friends. There must be something magical about this place!
>
>David left with a glow, a smile, and some hugs. We and he had some laughs
>with the Universe of Creation.
>
>Thank you, Joe, for your intercession. Once again, you've acted as the
>Divine Novelty Agent you truly are!
>
>Looking forward to sitting around the table with you again!
>
>Love,
>Chris and Bil
>
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:14:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hard to find WSB book
In-Reply-To: <a66ef9e2.34ad448f@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> And while I'm asking- do you guys think that when reading JK books (the
> autobiographical novels, I mean) you should follow the chronological order?
> I've been wondering about this. I read "Big Sur" after the "Dharma Bums", and
> though that's the right order, there's about 4 yrs difference in copyright
> dates... I know I missed *something*. I know I *should* read them as seperate
> books, but then I always start wondering which name stands for which name, so
> I'm not really reading it as fiction anyway.
Well, if you want to be technical, Some of the Dharma should be inserted
and read along with the last half or third of Dharma Bums, then follow
with Desolation Angels. Some of the Dharma was just published this year
so don't go by copyright dates. Maggie Cassidy and Dr. Sax should go
before them all and you should read Visions of Cody while you're
simultaneously reading On the Road. VoC wasn't published until after
Kerouac had died. Its good to read them in some sort of order just so you
can see how his style changed from early on (Town & the City) to later
(Big Sur) -- big differences. And knowing what was happening in his life
lets you know why his style changed. Also, he didn't write his books in
the chronological order of his life. In fact, his later stuff and the
book he started just before he died was about his childhood in Lowell.
So, don't sweat it. Unless you're also as fanatical about the events of
his life and the happenings of the man and his era as we lunatics are,
just read what you can get your hands on. There's a multitude of
writings that haven't seen the light of day since Kerouac himself stuffed
them into his "to do" box also, so you'd be fighting a losing battle.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:32:31 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
Jerry C. I forwarded your question to the Kesey camp. I'm curious too if that
film is still around. Also, I didn't see that apartment listed in Bill Morgan's
Beat Tour book. I think it was on 86th Street in NYC. Does anyone have
specifics? Probably torn down long ago.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:03:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Hard to find WSB book
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 EST, Stephanie wrote:
>Hi everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to
>be pretty interesting. So here's a question I hope you
>guys could help me w/- A little while ago, I found
>a Burroughs book called..... something.... of
>course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore
>so I'd never be able to findit again. It was very small,
>had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you
>turned it over and backwards it was in German.
Sounds like _The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse_.
Published by E.M.E. (Expanded Media Editions).
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:19:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Floyd Cramer
Comments: To: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.com>,
Johnny Winter <jwinter@sicel-home-2-19.urbanet.ch>,
"jjw-l@io.com" <jjw-l@io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Most here may not care, but an important musical figure passed on New
Year's Eve. Floyd Cramer of "The Nashville Sound" passed. He played
piano on Heartbreak Hotel, which in my book qualifies him for admission
into any Hall of Fame or Olympus. His biggest hit that I know of was
"Last Date."
The newspaper reports that he recorded 50 solo albums and along with
Chet Atkins, and Boots Randolph (He had a great album cover back in the
sixties) created The Nashville Sound that allowed country music to cross
over. He pioneered what is known as the "bent note" or "slip note"
style on the piano, "hitting a note and almost instantly sliding into
the next -- influenced a generation of pianists."
He also played on sessions by Roy Orbison, the Everly Brothers, PATSY
CLINE (a divine and eternal goddess) and Perry Como in addition to the
historic 1955 recordings by Elvis in his first RCA sessions.
We will miss you Floyd. Many didn't know his sound, but if they heard
him play, they would know why so many play like him still.
NP-- The Ballad of Easy Rider (album version)
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:39:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Hard to find WSB book
In-Reply-To: <199801030203.VAA02922@ionline.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 21:03 02/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 EST, Stephanie wrote:
>
>>Hi everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to
>>be pretty interesting. So here's a question I hope you
>>guys could help me w/- A little while ago, I found
>>a Burroughs book called..... something.... of
>>course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore
>>so I'd never be able to findit again. It was very small,
>>had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you
>>turned it over and backwards it was in German.
>
>Sounds like _The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse_.
>Published by E.M.E. (Expanded Media Editions).
>
>Mike
>
Nah, I think it's Electronic Revolution. My copy has a dog on the cover. A
dog doing a ... twirlie.
Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 02:06:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Floyd Cramer
In-Reply-To: <34ADA038.EB07CBA2@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:19 PM 1/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Most here may not care, but an important musical figure passed on New
>Year's Eve. Floyd Cramer of "The Nashville Sound" passed. He played
>piano on Heartbreak Hotel, which in my book qualifies him for admission
>into any Hall of Fame or Olympus. His biggest hit that I know of was
>"Last Date."
>
>The newspaper reports that he recorded 50 solo albums and along with
>Chet Atkins, and Boots Randolph (He had a great album cover back in the
>sixties) created The Nashville Sound that allowed country music to cross
>over. He pioneered what is known as the "bent note" or "slip note"
>style on the piano, "hitting a note and almost instantly sliding into
>the next -- influenced a generation of pianists."
>
>He also played on sessions by Roy Orbison, the Everly Brothers, PATSY
>CLINE (a divine and eternal goddess) and Perry Como in addition to the
>historic 1955 recordings by Elvis in his first RCA sessions.
>
>We will miss you Floyd. Many didn't know his sound, but if they heard
>him play, they would know why so many play like him still.
>
>NP-- The Ballad of Easy Rider (album version)
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
>
I always like to call Floyd's style the teardrop piano note
because it has a sad edge to it.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 04:55:24 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: And the Beat Goes On and On--via Tempe, AZ
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Just got home from an all night adventure in Tempe with a local attorney and old
college friend. We went to see the new Nicholson flick ate dinner and then
talked about Melville and Faulkner until dawn's early light. We'd not been in
contact for nine years. We're still old friends as it turns out.
As for 1603 evening it seems about a month ago already. The ideas were
stimulating. An interesting angle especially given the high degree of
scientific expertise involved and my moron level of ignorance in scientific
matters. The parallels were far far away from each other. It seems the
question is whether a unified conjugation of consciousness is possible in which
the forward moving muse and the backward moving muse say precisely the same
message? I'll let them figure that one out.
I definitely have many other thoughts. The evening was one of those enactments
of temporal relativity. Chronologically four hours, yet also seemed ten minutes
and four years at the same time. Bil's facial structure resembled an old
housemate in Illinois who was the Fool on the Hill. Sometimes it was hard to
follow completely because i had to keep telling my memories of North to turn off
so that i could focus on the words coming in from Bil. For those who know about
the conjugal consciounsess<grin> the experience makes total sense.
leaving on a jet plane today
david rhaesa
airborne.....
jo grant wrote:
> David,
> What a pleasure to hear that the folks at 1603 found you as interesting and
> charming in person as I have via the List. Perhaps someday our paths will
> cross, out there, on the road.
> j grant
>
> >
> >Dear Joe --
> >
> >Thank you for introducing us to David Rhaesa! We enjoyed his presence, his
> >stories, his perspective, and found much in common.
> >
> >We introduced David to our phase conjugate model of consciousness. Most
> >people find it a bit abstract, but David found it paralleled his thoughts
> >on the subject. We provided a few pieces of the puzzle that weren't
> >available to Burroughs, Kerouac, Ginsberg, Leary, and Watts. It'll be very
> >interesting to see what David does with this material!
> >
> >We spent 4-1/2 hours together on the Event Horizon, where cultural frames
> >of reference dissolve and the barriers between individuals become receptor
> >sites for new World Views; where God becomes your Friend, not an abstract
> >Court of Judgment.
> >
> >We gained a sense of our larger kinship beyond Time and Space. David
> >arrived as a stranger, but left as an old friend. We fondly remember a
> >time when WE first arrived at the front door of 1603 as strangers, and
> >found friends. There must be something magical about this place!
> >
> >David left with a glow, a smile, and some hugs. We and he had some laughs
> >with the Universe of Creation.
> >
> >Thank you, Joe, for your intercession. Once again, you've acted as the
> >Divine Novelty Agent you truly are!
> >
> >Looking forward to sitting around the table with you again!
> >
> >Love,
> >Chris and Bil
> >
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:35:23 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS
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>
> Subject:
> Hard to find WSB book
> Date:
> Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:48:29 EST
> From:
> Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
>
>
> Hi everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to be pretty
> interesting. So here's a question I hope you guys could help me w/-
> A little while ago, I found a Burroughs book called..... something.... of
> course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore so I'd never be able to find
> it again. It was very small, had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you
> turned it over and backwards it was in German. It started out going on about
> how "language is a virus" .......
This has nothing to do with that book, (I think) but
Does anybody remember Laurie Anderson, the musical performance artist
who at times worked with peter Gabriel? She did a song called "Language
is a Virus." I used to have her tape, I can't find it now. If anyone
out there knows what I'm talking about, can they post the lyrics? Maybe
it does have something to do with the book.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:05:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
Comments: cc: nhenness@uwaterloo.ca
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At 10:31 AM 12/30/97 -0500, Neil Hennessy wrote:
<snip>
>There are also recordings of Gysin reading his
>permutation poems, including "Kick that Habit Man",
>"Junk is No Good Baby" and some
>others.
<snip>
>The best books to look into are _Here to Go: Planet R-101_
>which is constructed as a series of interviews with Gysin,
> _Brion Gysin Let the Mice In_ , and _Man from
>Nowhere: Storming the Citadels of Enlightenment_.
>Mike Cakebread might be able to tell you if there's
>anything about permutations in the Man from Nowhere
>book (Mike?)
The only mention of permutation poems I could
find in _Man From Nowhere: Storming the Citadels of
Enlightenment with William Burroughs and Brion Gysin_
(published by the gap and subliminal books, 1992) is the
above recordings (and the blurb below) at BBC studios in
1960 by Gysin, with producer George Macbeth.
>from: _Man From Nowhere: Storming the Citadels of
Enlightenment with William Burroughs and Brion Gysin_
Brion Gysin:
"We did first of all the 'Pistol Poem' which was their
revolver shot; I had brought a cannon shot with me, not
realizing that it would be too long. . . because here we
began dealing with sound as material measurable in
centimetres, even in feet and inches, and the whole point
of the exercise was to do things treating sound as if it was
material. . . tangible material; as indeed it has become
since the invention of tape. And so we went to work, we
did the pistol shot one metre away, two metres away,
three, four, five metres, and then a permutation of these
numbers produced a pistol poem."
Not much, but better than nothing. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:52:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Wittgenstein?
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Does anybody know if there are any Burroughs references
regarding Ludwig Wittgenstein? Any info would
be appreciated.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:11:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
In-Reply-To: <199801032352.SAA05859@ionline.net>
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At 18:52 03/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Does anybody know if there are any Burroughs references
>regarding Ludwig Wittgenstein? Any info would
>be appreciated.
>
>Mike
>
WSB quotes him during the BURROUGHS THE MOVIE doco.
Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:52:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
In-Reply-To: <199801032352.SAA05859@ionline.net>
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On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, M. Cakebread wrote:
> Does anybody know if there are any Burroughs references
> regarding Ludwig Wittgenstein? Any info would
> be appreciated.
reference to the Tractatus in the intro to Naked Lunch (about 2
pages from the end)....a paraphrase perhaps of 5.47321
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:09:33 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Greetings and salutations
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I'd just like to say hello.
I just joined the list and thought I should I announce my presence.
A little bit about me:
I was first introduced to the Beats by reading "Desolate Angel,"
biography of Jack Kerouac. From there I read "On the Road" and "The
Dharma Bums".
I have shifted a little bit recently, I consider myself to mainly be a
Ginsberg devotee, of his books I own:
"Plutonian Ode"
"The Fall of America"
"Howl and Other Poems"
"Mind Breaths"
"Selected Poems"
"Journals Mid Fifties"
"Annotated Howl"
and the Barry Miles biography.
I have also spent a lot of time recently on a web site devoted to him:
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
I am going to make a point of reading some Burroughs (I started Naked
Lunch at one point, never finished for one reason or another) and to
read more of Kerouac (plus rereading "On the Road").
I have read a little bit about Buddhism and try to incorporate some of
the teachings into my life, I am also a writer of fiction and poetry.
That's enough rambling for now... Hope to hear from everyone soon.
Greg Beaver-Seitz
Stillwater, Minnesota
hookooekoo@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 04:23:26 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Greetings and salutations
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i've noticed that a lot of new members have signed on recently. three cheers!
though i'm still new myself, and am hardly in a position to say this, welcome
aboard!
aeronwy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:19:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Greetings and salutations
In-Reply-To: <19980104060934.15361.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Welcome to the list, Greg...
I also started Naked Lunch and never finished it but Im sure I will,
eventually.
~Nancy
PS I really want a Gary Fisher HooKooEKoo. Do you have one?
On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:
> I'd just like to say hello.
> I just joined the list and thought I should I announce my presence.
> A little bit about me:
> I was first introduced to the Beats by reading "Desolate Angel,"
> biography of Jack Kerouac. From there I read "On the Road" and "The
> Dharma Bums".
> I have shifted a little bit recently, I consider myself to mainly be a
> Ginsberg devotee, of his books I own:
> "Plutonian Ode"
> "The Fall of America"
> "Howl and Other Poems"
> "Mind Breaths"
> "Selected Poems"
> "Journals Mid Fifties"
> "Annotated Howl"
> and the Barry Miles biography.
> I have also spent a lot of time recently on a web site devoted to him:
> http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
>
> I am going to make a point of reading some Burroughs (I started Naked
> Lunch at one point, never finished for one reason or another) and to
> read more of Kerouac (plus rereading "On the Road").
> I have read a little bit about Buddhism and try to incorporate some of
> the teachings into my life, I am also a writer of fiction and poetry.
> That's enough rambling for now... Hope to hear from everyone soon.
>
> Greg Beaver-Seitz
> Stillwater, Minnesota
> hookooekoo@hotmail.com
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 10:04:15 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Greetings and salutations
Content-Type: text/plain
I've got a trip to the library today to get some kerouac and
burroughs.... i hope to find time to read them along with stuff for
school and a great book (completely un-beat) called "Sophie's World"....
Greg
ps Nancy... yes, I have a 95 Hookooekoo which I've upgraded a little
since buying it.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:14:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thanx Jeff & Glenn for the Wittgenstein info!!
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:54:01 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: kerouac & flags
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In _On the Bus_ by Paul Perry (NY: Thunder's Mouth, 1990), the following
statement occurs regarding a party at a Manhattan apartment including the
Merry Pranksters and Jack Kerouac:
"'Take a listen,' Cassady says, putting the earphones on Jack. The
Pranksters massage Kerouac with soothing words. They croon choruses of
'Everything's Fine,' into his ears. Dale covers Jack's shoulders with an
American flag. Jack endures it stoically and when the chorusing is done,
takes off the earphones and carefully folds the flag and places it on the
sofa." (p. 84)
This book also contains a photo of Kerouac at that party with the flag
draped around his shoulders (p. 86) and quotes the following story by
Ginsberg:
"The Pranksters had a big throne of a sofa completely clear for
Kerouac. The room was full of wires and lights and cameras and people in
striped clothes and Pranksters and jesters and American flags and people
waving cameras around drinking in rock and roll and all lit up like
amphetamines.
Kerouac came in. He was mute and quiet and they showed him to his
couch seat but there was an American flag on it, so Kerouac, without
making a big, noisy complaint but a little minor objection, turned around
and took the flag and folded it up neatly and put it over the side of the
couch so they wouldn't sit on it. He was very conscious of the flag as an
image, and I think he misunderstood their use of it. They were
appropriating the flag for their own American purposes and he thought they
were maybe insulting it. Of course, you can say many things about Kesey,
but being unpatriotic is not one of them." (p. 86)
Cordially,
Mike Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:53:56 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mary Maconnell <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New/"Kerouac: The Essence of Jack"
MIME-version: 1.0
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Hi again. Howard Park was right on in describing the play thusly:
-----
It opens with a fine jazz combo. From there it is a series of events from
Kerouac's life. It sticks pretty close to the facts as I understand them with
some "license" when the actor gets into the rhelm of how Kerouac felt about
certain things. The territiory is pretty familier - Gerards death, football
days, meeting Cassidy and Ginsberg, troubles getting On The Road published,
positive and negative reactions to OTR, troubles brought on by sudden fame,
the Steve Allen show, the breakdown at Big Sur, the Merry Pranksters visit,
the alcohol soaked 60's. Readings from various Kerouac books are sprinkled
throughout. At the end Vincent takes questions -- mostly from
twentysomethings who know a little, but not a lot, about Kerouac.
-----
Vincent Balestri was simply amazing. Every time I think about it I want
to back and see it again and again. Unfortunately, I live about 250 miles
from Seattle and so that would involve a weekend road trip which now I
won't have much time for. Anyway, this guy is incredible. He really *is*
Jack. It's just him and the jazz trio. On the stage is a coat rack, a
table with a typewriter on it, and a rocking chair. He has a few
miscellaneous props such as an alcohol bottle, a poster from a "cheesy"
(so I've been told -- I didn't see it and I can't remember the title)
movie about the beats, etc. I was captivated and it held my attention
for the entire duration. He takes the play from a two-page bio that
Jack wrote from "Heaven..." and actually consults that during the play.
It's funny, well-written, poignant, and completely gripping.
On the night that I went there was such a mixture of people it was unreal.
I saw everyone from high schoolers (I wish I had known about Kerouac then!!)
to older people (hope I don't offend anyone). :) There were a few, but
now many, 'twentysomethings' in the crowd and I must confess that I was
one of them! They do have a nice little bar in the back that serves
cheap, good, stiff drinks which you can enjoy at your seat during the
show.
The musicians are excellent. The friend I went with knows the bass player
(Mike Bisio) pretty well and he introduced us to Brian Kent (sax) and the
guy playing drums (can't remember his name -- he was a stand-in for the
normal guy). I loved the music. They also play a bit before the show
so it sets the mood very nicely.
For those who missed it before, the play is at the Velvet Elvis in Pioneer
Square in Seattle and it plays until the 15th of February. The price is
$18 a ticket but it *is* well worth it. Heck, I'm going again if I can
possibly get over there.
Take care, all, and happy new year!
Mary
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 18:56:50 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Don Marriner <mmas@NETIDEA.COM>
Subject: that old time religion
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I'm yet another new lister - hi all.
I wonder if there's been any discussion before about how cool it is that
the three uber-dudes of Beat genesis - Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac -
represented, by dint of their particular backgrounds,what could be
considered the three founding religious permutations of Euro-American
culture : Protestantism, Judaism and Catholicism respectively. It's like in
order for there to be a new spiritual wave form released into the North
American consciousness there had to be a coming together of the old
factions. Whaddya think?
Oh, and by the way, I'm a Canadian. Just for fun, can anyone think of any
truly Beat Canucks?
jacqui in Nelson, B.C.
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I'm yet another new lister - hi =
all.<br><br>I wonder if there's been any discussion before about how =
cool it is that the three uber-dudes of Beat genesis - Burroughs, =
Ginsberg, Kerouac - represented, by dint of their particular =
backgrounds,what could be considered the three founding religious =
permutations of Euro-American culture : Protestantism, Judaism and =
Catholicism respectively. It's like in order for there to be a new =
spiritual wave form released into the North American consciousness there =
had to be a coming together of the old factions. Whaddya =
think?<br><br>Oh, and by the way, I'm a Canadian. Just for fun, can =
anyone think of any truly Beat Canucks?<br><br>jacqui in Nelson, =
B.C.</p>
</font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BD1942.83D433A0--
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:20:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Truly Beat Canucks
In-Reply-To: <199801050255.SAA10191@everest.netidea.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I heard your first prime minister (McDonald, right?) was pretty cool......
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:54:18 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: language is a virus
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Help me,
I'm still desparately trying to locate that Laurie Anderson tape I had
with "Language is a virus". Does anyone out there have it and can they
post the lyrics. I've got to satisfy my curiousity if it is connected
to that recently discussed wsb book. Patricia told me that she had
preformed with burroughs and ginsberg, so i'm really curious on this.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:11:42 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: that old time religion
Comments: To: Don Marriner <mmas@NETIDEA.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199801050255.SAA10191@everest.netidea.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
What are you referring to exactly when you say "that old time religion?"
I mean what does that phrase actually mean? I haven't heared that saying
since the tune "Big Money" by Rush!
Tristan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 02:24:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Timothy Franklin Thomas <tt324696@OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: language is a virus
Comments: To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>
In-Reply-To: <34B0758A.5F29@comic.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
"Language is a virus from outer space" was on Anderson's 1984 five-album
set "United States Live". I believe that this was released on cd only
recently. I'm sure she had many collaberations with the boys only one of
which comes to mind at this time. She did an album on John Giorno's
Dial-A-Poet series with Giorno and Burroughs. The album is interesting in
that instead of having one groove spiraling toward the center, there were
three separate grooves intertwined. Depending on were the needle touched
down at the start of the record then that was the track you heard. The
album was called "You're The Guy I Want To Share My Money With".
TIMBO
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Cathy Wilkie wrote:
> Help me,
>
>
> I'm still desparately trying to locate that Laurie Anderson tape I had
> with "Language is a virus". Does anyone out there have it and can they
> post the lyrics. I've got to satisfy my curiousity if it is connected
> to that recently discussed wsb book. Patricia told me that she had
> preformed with burroughs and ginsberg, so i'm really curious on this.
>
> cathy
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:27:21 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac & Kesey on film
From: MX%"kenk@efn.org" "Kesey and/or Babbs" 4-JAN-1998 20:00:09.62
To: MX%"breithau@kenyon.edu"
CC:
Subj: Re: This video still around?
For the Beat Listers who wondered if that film of Kerouac and the Pranksters in
NYC was still around, here is the word from Ken Babbs.
Dave B.
Hi, Dave. Yes, the film of which you speak is still in existence, as it has
been these past 34 years. We have yet to edit it and release it. But you
can get videos of parts of the film from keyz@efn.org
or you can call them at 541-484-4315. It's Zane Kesey (Kesey's son) and his
wife, Stephanie.
kb
http://www.intrepidtrips.com
__________
_/ |
|_ FURTHER _|
O O
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 17:04:33 -0800
To: CIRCULATION <breithau@kenyon.edu>
From: kenk@efn.org (Kesey and/or Babbs)
Subject: Re: This video still around?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:45:40 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: michael hanson <hanson@HUM.AUC.DK>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Someone recently asked for information on Burroughs's use of and relation
to Ludwig Wittgenstein. I am afraid I no longer remember who asked, but
anyway... here is an article you might like to read:
R.G.Peterson: "A Picture Is A Fact: Wittgenstein and Naked Lunch", in: The
Beats - Essays in Criticism, pp. 30-39, Ed. by Lee Bartlett, McFarland 1981.
Sincerely
Michael Hanson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:45:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Most Stolen Books
Mime-Version: 1.0
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According to Publisher's Weekly:
Books most likely to be stolen from stores in New York City [would we
consider this to be indicative of the US in general? - Matt] include:
Waiting to Exhale
Jazz
Playing in the Dark
Silent Passage: Menopause
Race
Possessing the Secret of Joy
Most stolen authors include:
Annie Leibovitz
Dr. Seuss
Franz Kafka
Jack Kerouac
Malcolm X
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:36:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
In-Reply-To: <00089626.3427@usoc.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 13:45 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
> According to Publisher's Weekly:
>
> Books most likely to be stolen from stores in New York City [would we
> consider this to be indicative of the US in general? - Matt] include:
>
> Waiting to Exhale
> Jazz
> Playing in the Dark
> Silent Passage: Menopause
> Race
> Possessing the Secret of Joy
>
> Most stolen authors include:
>
> Annie Leibovitz
> Dr. Seuss
> Franz Kafka
> Jack Kerouac
> Malcolm X
>
In Australia, a list of most stolen books was published a couple of years ago.
Number 1 was WSB's "Junkie". Also feautured was "On The Road". The
Mariujuana growers handbook ranked highly, as did a lot of Henry Miller
books.
A couple of the book stores I frequent place all their "Beat" and
"counterculture" stuff right up near the counter, to help deter thieves.
Not sure what we can make from that!
Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:04:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I'm surprised that Abbie Hoffman's "Steal This Book" isn't on either
list.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 1/5/98 4:36 PM
At 13:45 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
> According to Publisher's Weekly:
>
> Books most likely to be stolen from stores in New York City [would we
> consider this to be indicative of the US in general? - Matt] include:
>
> Waiting to Exhale
> Jazz
> Playing in the Dark
> Silent Passage: Menopause
> Race
> Possessing the Secret of Joy
>
> Most stolen authors include:
>
> Annie Leibovitz
> Dr. Seuss
> Franz Kafka
> Jack Kerouac
> Malcolm X
>
In Australia, a list of most stolen books was published a couple of years ago.
Number 1 was WSB's "Junkie". Also feautured was "On The Road". The
Mariujuana growers handbook ranked highly, as did a lot of Henry Miller
books.
A couple of the book stores I frequent place all their "Beat" and
"counterculture" stuff right up near the counter, to help deter thieves.
Not sure what we can make from that!
Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:59:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Can anyone briefly tell me if the references mentioned
are influenced by Wittgenstein's _Tractatus_, or
_Philosophical Investigations_? Just curious.
If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about
language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,
and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that
if one actually looks to see how language is used, the
variety of linguistic usage becomes clear. Words
are like tools, and just as tools serve different
functions, so linguistic expressions serve many
functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and
variety led to his concept of a language game and to
the conclusion that people play different language games.
Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's
theories.
Thanx,
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:22:31 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
Content-Type: text/plain
Speaking of movies..
Does anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my
Daisy" which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??
I have read about it a few different places and have pretty much never
planned on finding it but I thought I'd try.
-Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Ginsberg etc.
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:38:00 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 98-01-05 17:26:02 EST, Mike wrote:
<< If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about
language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,
and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that
if one actually looks to see how language is used, the
variety of linguistic usage becomes clear. Words
are like tools, and just as tools serve different
functions, so linguistic expressions serve many
functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and
variety led to his concept of a language game and to
the conclusion that people play different language games.
Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's
theories. >>
Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was as
sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a book.
Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
ID
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:14:24 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mary Maconnell <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac: The Essence of Jack cont'd. (notes)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Thought I'd dig up the production notes and copy them from the program
from the aforementioned play. They read:
Jack Kerouac exploded into the nation's consciousness in 1957 with the
publication of On the Road: the odyssey of two young men in post World
War II America travelling across the continent in a search for truth.
Their journey from Harlem jazz joints to the barrios of Mexico City lit
the hearts and minds of a new generation like a torch set ablaze against
a dreary cold war landscape. The New York Times called the book a
literary milestone. A few weeks later, the Times published a second
review condemning the work and all it represented. But it was too late.
A new generation had been born.
In 1980, Mr. Balestri began actively working on what was to become
Kerouac: The Essence of Jack. A friend introduced him to Edie Kerouac,
Jack's first wife, who was struck by Balestri's resemblance to Kerouac.
Edie supplied him with tapes of the author's voice and spent hours
talking about her life with Jack and the times in which they lived.
With Edie's encouragement, Balestri began a series of hour long '
performances in a friend's loft in Chicago. He next performed as a
benefit at David Thompson University in B.C. -- an eight hour
marathon in which the actor and the audience went for broke. Full
production began in 1981. Since that time, Mr. Balestri has toured
extensively across the United States and Canada. "Kerouac" has been
showcased in Jack's hometown, Lowell, Massachusetts, for their annual
birthday celebration and has been seen by many of Jack's family and
friends.
This production is dedicated to Jack's loved ones who are with him
now -- safe in heaven dead.
-----
The typos are mine, if there are any, and I don't know who wrote these
notes as there is not an author mentioned.
Thought this might give more concrete information rather than just the
groovy feelings I have for the play. :) I hope I'm not boring everyone!!
Mary
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:21:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:38 PM 1/5/98 EST, IDDHI@AOL.COM wrote:
>Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit?
>If prose was as sterile and ho-hum as that theory
>and passage above, I'd never crack a book.
Obviously I do give a shit, and maybe there are
others. . . How do you not expect me to not take
a reply like this personally? If you
are going to make an open attack on me, please
don't kiss my ass beforehand. I'd respect the
candor of the attack a hell of a lot more than a
petty flame. I was trying to find out some info for
personal study, and this retort was not appreciated.
I hope next time you think before you post.
Sorry for the flame folx.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:50:09 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
IDDHI wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-01-05 17:26:02 EST, Mike wrote:
>
> << If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about
> language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,
> and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that
> if one actually looks to see how language is used, the
> variety of linguistic usage becomes clear. Words
> are like tools, and just as tools serve different
> functions, so linguistic expressions serve many
> functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and
> variety led to his concept of a language game and to
> the conclusion that people play different language games.
> Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's
> theories. >>
>
> Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was as
> sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a book.
>
> Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
>
> ID
Interesting, what some people find interesting, i found the first post
interesting. Language as a game resulting in escalation of thought is a
roller coaster i can buy a ticket on. the second post seemed real
boring.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:48:20 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
-----Original Message-----
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
>In a message dated 98-01-05 17:26:02 EST, Mike wrote:
>
><< If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about
> language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,
> and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that
> if one actually looks to see how language is used, the
> variety of linguistic usage becomes clear. Words
> are like tools, and just as tools serve different
> functions, so linguistic expressions serve many
> functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and
> variety led to his concept of a language game and to
> the conclusion that people play different language games.
> Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's
> theories. >>
>
>Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit?
Count me in as one who does give a shit.
>If prose was as
>sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a
book.
Sterile and ho-hum in the eyes of the beholder?
>
>Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
Stay alive with Hank, man, while I feast on Wittgenstein's theories. Thanks
for the delightful food for thought, Mike.
>
>ID
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:31:11 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: English major
Content-Type: text/plain
>> If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about
>> language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,
>> and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that
>> if one actually looks to see how language is used, the
>> variety of linguistic usage becomes clear. Words
>> are like tools, and just as tools serve different
>> functions, so linguistic expressions serve many
>> functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and
>> variety led to his concept of a language game and to
>> the conclusion that people play different language games.
>> Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's
>> theories. >>
>
>
>Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was
>as
>sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a
book.
>
>Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
>
>ID
>
Exactly.
Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless
authors/poets/people.
I have seen such analytical, super-intellectualism in three places:
In an AOL chat room (note: never visit AOL chat rooms)
At a talk by Jane Smiley between her (although she seemed anxious
(to end such talk) and an english major in the audience.
In physics' books.
I have absolutely nothing against english majors (I very well could
become one next year), i have little respect for most people on AOL and
I just really dislike physics.
I also have absolutely nothing against the writer of the first message,
believe me.
With good feelings all around,
greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Ginsberg etc.
http://members.tripod.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:45:43 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I got my copy from Beat Books in Berkeley.
http://members.aol.com/beatshop/beatcat.html
Good luck!
Jym
----------
> From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
> Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 4:22 PM
>
> Speaking of movies..
> Does anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my
> Daisy" which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??
> I have read about it a few different places and have pretty much never
> planned on finding it but I thought I'd try.
>
> -Greg
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Ginsberg etc.
> http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:47:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matt Hannan wrote:
> According to Publisher's Weekly:
>
> Books most likely to be stolen from stores in New York City [would
we
> consider this to be indicative of the US in general? - Matt]
include:
>
> Waiting to Exhale
> Jazz
> Playing in the Dark
> Silent Passage: Menopause
> Race
> Possessing the Secret of Joy
>
> Most stolen authors include:
>
> Annie Leibovitz
> Dr. Seuss
> Franz Kafka
> Jack Kerouac
> Malcolm X
DR. SEUSS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
What is the world coming to???????
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:12:14 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: English major
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 4:33 PM
Subject: English major
hookooekoo,
>>Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
>>
>>ID
>>
>
>Exactly.
Is it possibly your diet that keeps you, ID and Hookooekoo, on the verge of
starvation?
>Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless
>authors/poets/people.
Thanks for the compliment hookooekooo.
>I have seen such analytical, super-intellectualism in three places:
> In an AOL chat room (note: never visit AOL chat rooms)
> At a talk by Jane Smiley between her (although she seemed anxious
> (to end such talk) and an english major in the audience.
> In physics' books.
Is anything beyond your grasp unworthy of alive vibrant intelligent
consideration?
>I have absolutely nothing against english majors (I very well could
>become one next year), i have little respect for most people on AOL and
>I just really dislike physics.
How do you stack up in your noble assignments of respect and "nothing
against" refreshingly vital judgements?
>I also have absolutely nothing against the writer of the first message,
>believe me.
Here is a dry, supeeranalytical, overly intellectual question for your
amusement: What in the hell do you think you are communicating about
yourself with this statement?
Do you wonder if anybody takes you seriously?
>
>With good feelings all around,
Those are good feelings that you just spread out for me, a great admirer of
great minds and intelligent discussions?
I would like to suggest to you that perhaps if you worked hard at it you too
might discover the great joy there is to be found in profound use of your
brain. If you want to limit it to just whatever it is that you can enjoy
that is fine with me, but must you dismiss what you don't like as feed for
dried up super something or other? I think if you respected yourself more
you wouldn't be so quick with your handouts of respect to others.
>greg
>
>
>* * * * * * * * * * * * *
>Ginsberg etc.
>http://members.tripod.com
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:59:59 -0700
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: [Fwd: Flying visions #3308]
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Jim,
please forward the following to the Beat-L (address in you address book)
at your earliest convenience.
January 3rd, 1998 America West Return Flight from Phoenix to KC
(read while watching Space Jam and listening to Holy Soul Jelly Roll)
Riding a bike
First fight
NoDoz and First frozen pizzas
my first experiences with a
mustard seed
and the old old gardener
teaching
coooking
simmering
alchemical, archetypal, synaptic interactions whiz by like clouds
b
e
l
o
w
I'm flying above the clouds in a hot air balloon named Widener or
Titanic
I came to the Valley
with the old myth
"ya gotta walk that Lonesome valley"
by yurself
with a genetic engrained MIDI
chip brain ram recorder
spitting 200 floors above
Leonard Cohen's vision of the Future
Me and Roy are laughing
(Hank's 180 floors down coughing so we invite him up)
all night long
Often snoring too as boredom overtook us
we talked about lactose intolerance
with Robert Johnson
Whadayadoin here kid - says Blind Lemon Jefferson
and I says I'm just the Pizza Delivery boy
waiting
for a tip
on how
to survive the loneliness below
And John Lennon sings
There Will be Peace in the Valley
and gives me a ticket to fly
and Big Brother who held me company (not captive)
loans me a car and suddenly
I'm at 1603 ELF Street in Tempe
in the Land of the Apache
in the Valley of the Sun
and I'm a Moonchild's shadow from the
Dark Side
wearing Ruby Converse All-stars (low tops)
and black Levis
the Stranger of Strangers
who ghostwrote Camus
in anti-linear conjugative temporal telepathic Hog Greek
a total stranger
in the Valley of the Sun
interacting
intraacting
based souly on introduction
via
a technological medium
I understand at a limit set to nihil
empty set
of fingers pouncing on a keyboard
with John Lennon's choir singing
Rocky Mountain High
a
n
d
Louis Armstrong - It's A Wonderful World
with Jimmy Stewart dancing on the bridges
between the 12th and 13th dimensions
and
i wonder
when someone else will find the key
to the "Pizza Delivery Con"
at the Tower of Song
in issue #23
of Spy vs. Spy
the special biography of my backchannel brain distorted
and the eagle landed
in arrowhead stadium
david rhaesa
copyright January 1998
--------------A66F4A113EDD568599A4DB00--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:56:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
In-Reply-To: <19980105222232.650.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:22 PM 1/5/98 PST, you wrote:
>Speaking of movies..
>Does anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my
>Daisy" which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??
>I have read about it a few different places and have pretty much never
>planned on finding it but I thought I'd try.
>
E-mail Jeffry Weinberg at waterrow@aol.com or go to his site at
http://www.waterrowbooks.com/orderpage.html I am pretty sure he has it and
he is very reliable. Phil
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:25:45 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: English major
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:
> Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless
> authors/poets/people.
What strikes me in this comment is the assumption that a concern for the
idea of language and meaning is considered dry and emotionless, and that
perhaps it is not necessary in discussions of beat writers, whom I hope
are experienced as emotional, vital and alive. The whole idea of beat
literature is centered in the experience of truly living life to the
fullest. All of these people however went from "experiencing" to
"writing about the experience." They wrote about human-ness and the only
way to do that is by using language. Not only that, all of them
experimented with language: Ginsberg brought immediate, personal
experience to the realm of poetry; Kerouac brought up the idea of
spontaneous prose; and few writers of the twentieth have ever begun to
experiment with language in the way that Burroughs did. I am sure
that Burroughs read widely in the area of the philosophy of language. The
meaning of language is key to everything we do and great writers all
experiment with the potentiality of the word. If I'm broaching the area
of "analytical, superintellectism" then so be it! As Joseph Campbell
would say "follow your bliss."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:31:36 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: English major
well said Diane. while over-analysis seems to be the problem these days -
leaving the emotion as though it were a mere tangent to the work, still it's
obvious that language was VERY important to Beats, just as it is to anyone
who writes seriously. for all his spontaneity, if memory serves, JK wrote
12 revisions of "On the Road". and i agree that Burroughs whole take on
language could be viewed as a study of semiotics. and if we wish to
understand any writing to the fullest, we must understand language, for it
is language that defines much of how a culture thinks - its philosophies,
its understanding of the world, its limitations.
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: English major
>> Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:
>
>> Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless
>> authors/poets/people.
>
>What strikes me in this comment is the assumption that a concern for the
>idea of language and meaning is considered dry and emotionless, and that
>perhaps it is not necessary in discussions of beat writers, whom I hope
>are experienced as emotional, vital and alive. The whole idea of beat
>literature is centered in the experience of truly living life to the
>fullest. All of these people however went from "experiencing" to
>"writing about the experience." They wrote about human-ness and the only
>way to do that is by using language. Not only that, all of them
>experimented with language: Ginsberg brought immediate, personal
>experience to the realm of poetry; Kerouac brought up the idea of
>spontaneous prose; and few writers of the twentieth have ever begun to
>experiment with language in the way that Burroughs did. I am sure
>that Burroughs read widely in the area of the philosophy of language. The
>meaning of language is key to everything we do and great writers all
>experiment with the potentiality of the word. If I'm broaching the area
>of "analytical, superintellectism" then so be it! As Joseph Campbell
>would say "follow your bliss."
>DC
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:12:45 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Don Marriner <mmas@NETIDEA.COM>
Subject: Re: that old time re:ligion
MIME-Version: 1.0
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tristan-
"that old time religion" refers to what I consider the old religions that I
mentioned in my message...
...ah, Rush: a very _unbeat_ Canadian band. But how about those Cowboy
Junkies? Surely they're carrying the torch.
chris-
Jack's family came from the Great White North but it seems to me that the
man himself was a good red blooded American boy.
And just to answer my own question - I just remembered Leonard Cohen -!
How could I forget Cohen-san. Mr Canuck Beatnik.
adrien -
hey, flat lander!
Thanks for the tips re Levy-Beaulieu and the bongobeat guy!
As for faves, I'm definitely a Kerouackian - I first read the Dharma Bums
while riding the Coast Starlight train from Seattle to Oakland, my jumping
off point for a week of wandering around San Fran and Berkeley and Mount
Tam with the lenses of Jack's lingo before my eyes. I was 19. Since then I
've tried to read as widely as possible and tried to get some shit down on
paper myself. I practically live by Jack's "list of essentials". I had the
pleasure of seeing Ginsberg and Orlovsky read here in Nelson in 1979 and
own what I suppose is a bootleg copy of that night.
ciao,
-jacqui
List of Essentials, #16: Work from pithy middle eye out, from the jewel
center of interest, swimming in language sea.
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">tristan-<br>"that old time =
religion" refers to what I consider the old religions that I =
mentioned in my message...<br>...ah, Rush: a very _unbeat_ Canadian =
band. But how about those Cowboy Junkies? Surely they're carrying the =
torch.<br><br>chris-<br>Jack's family came from the Great White North =
but it seems to me that the man himself was a good red blooded American =
boy.<br><br>And just to answer my own question - I just remembered =
Leonard Cohen -!<br>How could I forget Cohen-san. Mr Canuck =
Beatnik.<br><br>adrien -<br>hey, flat lander! <br>Thanks for the tips re =
Levy-Beaulieu and the bongobeat guy!<br>As for faves, I'm definitely a =
Kerouackian - I first read the Dharma Bums while riding the Coast =
Starlight train from Seattle to Oakland, my jumping off point for a week =
of wandering around San Fran and Berkeley and Mount Tam with the lenses =
of Jack's lingo before my eyes. I was 19. Since then I 've tried to read =
as widely as possible and tried to get some shit down on paper myself. I =
practically live by Jack's "list of essentials". I had the =
pleasure of seeing Ginsberg and Orlovsky read here in Nelson in 1979 and =
own what I suppose is a bootleg copy of that night. =
<br><br><br>ciao,<br><br>-jacqui<br><br>List of Essentials, #16: =
Work from pithy middle eye out, from the jewel center of interest, =
swimming in language sea.</p>
</font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BD1A16.4904DCA0--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:32:50 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: English major
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 98-01-05 19:33:22 EST, you write:
<< i have little respect for most people on AOL >>
There are 9 million people on AOL, I'm sure they'll be crushed.
Dennis (English major/AOL subscriber)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:51:00 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
In-Reply-To: <000898E4.3427@usoc.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 03:04 PM 1/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
> I'm surprised that Abbie Hoffman's "Steal This Book" isn't on either
> list.
>
>I imagine booksellers are tired of playing along with Abbie's little
joke. Why stock the book at all if it is only for theft. In the seventies,
I saw the book in stores, but haven't seen it since then. It was a pop book
of the moment while Hoffman was hiding out somewhere in America, on the
lam from a heroin selling charge. During that time, he negotiated a TV
interview of himself, with WNET in New York, in exchange for the then bulky
3/4 inch
videocassette player. Abbie makes you wonder. He seemed the most carefree and
joyous of all the real life comedians of the sixties, and yet he must have
suffered bouts of despair, the last one leading to his suicide, when the
country started to grow more conservative, and he and Jerry Rubin were forced
to play good cop and bad cop to one another on a national debate tour;
discussing whether "twas nobler to pull out the stops for humanity (Hoffman),
or sell out to the highest bidder (Rubin)."
Rubin's position seems to have won the day, at least temporarily, but I
remember Abbie more fondly than any of the other players who entertained
us during the madness of the late sixties. His motives seemed purer.
Mike Rice
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:51:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
In-Reply-To: <19980105222232.650.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:22 PM 1/5/98 PST, you wrote:
>Speaking of movies..
>Does anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my
>Daisy" which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??
>I have read about it a few different places and have pretty much never
>planned on finding it but I thought I'd try.
>
>-Greg
>
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>Ginsberg etc.
>http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
Try Home Film Festival at 800-258-3456. They have a
reputation for renting independent and offbeat films.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:16:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: English major
In-Reply-To: <19980106003112.28202.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think you can talk the work of the three most famous
beat writers to death, as occasionally happens on this
list. I view the List as a take-off point for anything
anyone might want to talk about. And don't really object
to most threads, save for the dreaded Gordian Knot that is
the Kerouas estate.
I don't mind even the intellectualism, if there is nothing
else. Something always bubbles to the fore eventually.
Mike Rice
At 04:31 PM 1/5/98 PST, you wrote:
>>> If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about
>>> language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,
>>> and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that
>>> if one actually looks to see how language is used, the
>>> variety of linguistic usage becomes clear. Words
>>> are like tools, and just as tools serve different
>>> functions, so linguistic expressions serve many
>>> functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and
>>> variety led to his concept of a language game and to
>>> the conclusion that people play different language games.
>>> Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's
>>> theories. >>
>>
>>
>
>>Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was
>>as
>>sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a
>book.
>>
>>Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
>>
>>ID
>>
>
>Exactly.
>
>Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless
>authors/poets/people.
>I have seen such analytical, super-intellectualism in three places:
> In an AOL chat room (note: never visit AOL chat rooms)
> At a talk by Jane Smiley between her (although she seemed anxious
> (to end such talk) and an english major in the audience.
> In physics' books.
>
>I have absolutely nothing against english majors (I very well could
>become one next year), i have little respect for most people on AOL and
>I just really dislike physics.
>I also have absolutely nothing against the writer of the first message,
>believe me.
>
>With good feelings all around,
>greg
>
>
>* * * * * * * * * * * * *
>Ginsberg etc.
>http://members.tripod.com
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:16:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
In-Reply-To: <199801060046.SAA17705@core0.mx.execpc.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:45 PM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I got my copy (of Pull My Daisy) from Beat Books in Berkeley.
>
>http://members.aol.com/beatshop/beatcat.html
>
>Good luck!
>
>Jym
>
Fine, did you pay for it?
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:17:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: English major
In-Reply-To: <4918e886.34b1b3f4@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:32 PM 1/5/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-01-05 19:33:22 EST, you write:
>
><< i have little respect for most people on AOL >>
>There are 9 million people on AOL, I'm sure they'll be crushed.
>Dennis (English major/AOL subscriber)
>
>
AOL gets a terrible wrap whereever you go. Apart from the
problems they have been suffering for one solid year, I think
there is nothing wrong with those 9 million folks. Many have
an aversion to dealing with the installation of software. Others
want to carry their email with them when they travel, and the two
national "Brands" allow you to do this, though I simply fire up
hotmail on someone's computer, anywhere, to write someone.
By the way, does anyone know of an email software that will allow
you to create more than one personalized account and private code,
by encoding the incoming and outgoing messages, so that as many
as three or four people can use the same account and get total
email privacy from one another. It would seem to be a simple
software trick to bring off. If anyone knows, please write me
privately, will you?
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:26:25 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Abbie
In-Reply-To: <000898E4.3427@usoc.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Actually Abbie Hoffman had attempted the same strategy with his first
book, _Revolution for the Hell of It_, which he had written under the
pseudonym Free, a pseudonym which he wanted splashed across the front
cover so that people might think it meant the book was free.
Unfortunately, the publishers decided to reduce the size of the
author-pseudonym considerably.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, MATT HANNAN wrote:
> I'm surprised that Abbie Hoffman's "Steal This Book" isn't on either
> list.
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
> Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
> Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
> Date: 1/5/98 4:36 PM
>
>
> At 13:45 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
> > According to Publisher's Weekly:
> >
> > Books most likely to be stolen from stores in New York City [would we
> > consider this to be indicative of the US in general? - Matt] include:
> >
> > Waiting to Exhale
> > Jazz
> > Playing in the Dark
> > Silent Passage: Menopause
> > Race
> > Possessing the Secret of Joy
> >
> > Most stolen authors include:
> >
> > Annie Leibovitz
> > Dr. Seuss
> > Franz Kafka
> > Jack Kerouac
> > Malcolm X
> >
> In Australia, a list of most stolen books was published a couple of years ago.
>
> Number 1 was WSB's "Junkie". Also feautured was "On The Road". The
> Mariujuana growers handbook ranked highly, as did a lot of Henry Miller
> books.
>
> A couple of the book stores I frequent place all their "Beat" and
> "counterculture" stuff right up near the counter, to help deter thieves.
>
> Not sure what we can make from that!
>
> Glenn C.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 02:31:12 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Pull My Daisy - video and CD
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Pull My Daisy was finally released to video about a year or so ago. We have
it available, as well as David Amram's CD of Pull My Daisy in our catalog. E-
mail your snail-mail address to me and we'll mail you a catalog.
Speaking of David Amram I spoke with him the other day and he informed me the
soundtrack for the Manchurian Candidate which he recorded in early 60's was
just released on CD last month for the first time. Gave it a listen last week
and it has a great jazz beat. We now carry it at $16.98.
Jerry Cimino
Fog City Facts & Fiction
1-800-KER-OUAC
www.kerouac.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:02:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: English major
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 04:31 PM 1/5/98 PST, greg wrote:
>Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, e
>motionless authors/poets/people. I have seen such
>analytical, super-intellectualism in three places:
>In an AOL chat room (note: never visit AOL chat rooms)
>At a talk by Jane Smiley between her (although she
>seemed anxious (to end such talk) and an english
>major in the audience. In physics' books.
Hmm, an ex-psych/soc major (now Religion/Culture)
to be exact. In respect to my original question about
Wittgenstein and Burroughs, I find it kind of funny to
be flamed for a question, that I feel, has relevance to
Burroughs and his works. I admit this topic may not
appeal to some, but the usual banal banterings of the
list don't always appeal to me either - in other words,
I don't criticize others for their posts, or the relevance
of them.
<snip>
>With good feelings all around,
Actually a bad taste in the back of my mouth would
be more suitable. I hope that your fear of "super-
intellectualism" wanes, and you learn how to effectively
use the processes of analytical/critical thinking. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:14:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: English major
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:16 AM 1/6/98 -0500, Mike Rice wrote:
>I don't mind even the intellectualism, if there is nothing
>else. Something always bubbles to the fore eventually.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A perfect example of a Wittgenstein theory.
The meaning of a proposition must be understood in
terms of its context, that is, in terms of the rules
of the game of which that proposition is a part. The
key to the resolution of philosophical puzzles is the
therapeutic process of examining and describing language
in use. So, to a scientist this may mean something
entirely different than it would to an "english major." {;^>
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 05:21:11 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain
hello everyone, my name is julian, i was on this list for awhile this
summer, and now i have returned. i am from michigan, port huron, and i
am a poet, musician, artist, philosopher, and traveler. i am 18, and
have lived a life far beyond my years. i am a senior in highschool,
waiting to get out.
anyway, that's me in a few words (and from my perspective), so if there
are people who would like to respond, please do, also, if there is
ANYONE from michigan, PLEASE respond, i've nearly given up on culture
and intelligence here in the "outhouse" of the united states.
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:02:15 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD
Content-Type: text/plain
Okay:
A few things.
a) you have all made excellent points about the necessity of language to
the study of beats.
b) i don't study the beats.
c) i admire the beats.
d) i don't attempt to mimic the beats when I write.
e) i simply write however i feel is right and it usually makes me happy.
f) for those studying the beats, i have nothing against that - not my
thing.
g) i did _not_ mean that to be a personal attack... if it had been
personal I would have said that the person who wrote the first message
was the problem.
h) the problem is the type of thinking that went into that message.
i) but that is only my problem and i don't see why everyone else is
making it their problem.
j) i am a subscriber to aol.
k) Montag15@aol.com
l) i will probably be an english major next year.
m) thank you to all those who gave me places to look for "pull my
daisy."
thank you, good night,
greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Ginsberg etc.
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:53:21 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: English major
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:02:57 -0500 from <cake@IONLINE.NET>
A discussion on Burroughs and language is certainly appropriate for
Beat-l. In fact, it's much more of the type of discussion I had in mind
when I created the list. I hope to see more serious, academic topics
discussed on the list this year. Recently, in my opinion, the list has
become a little too chatty. There are a lot of messages that should be
private that are being posted to the list. I agree with Mike, though,
that it's better to be flexible than to be too rigid. I wouldn't want
the list to turn into a *purely* academic forum. If one insn't
interested in a thread, one can simply use the delete key.
As a reminder to everyone, I thought it might be a good idea to re-post
the scope note all of you received in the welcome message: "Beat-l is an
online discussion forum devoted to the lives and works of the writers of
the Beat Generation, especially Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and
William Burroughs. In addition to serving as an outlet for discussion,
Beat-l is intended to facilitate scholarly communication and to serve as
a bulletin board or calendar for poetry readings, announcements of new
publications, upcoming conferences, and related events." And as our New
Year's resolution, let's all try to remember to treat each other with
civility and respect.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:15:20 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: river city reunion
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patricia and i are having a river city reunion for two --
the cat just crashed it so now there's three
david rhaesa
at the Beat-Hotel
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:28:22 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:
>
> Okay:
>
> A few things.
> f) for those studying the beats, i have nothing against that - not my
> thing.
or not my thang -- the African for thing according to Tom Wolfe
david rhaesa
at the Beat-Hotel
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:55:51 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: julian
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In a message dated 98-01-06 08:35:39 EST, you write:
julian,
have lived a life far beyond my years.
~~~~not to demean your experiences, for i know not you or your life, how is it
that you have lived a life far beyond your years? traveling? thoughts? many
experiences compact into a short span of time into your town that are just
unusual for a person your age? of this i am curious.......for i am also your
age and i was under the same impression of myself up until my first semester
of college (which has since greatly humbled any sense of intelligence or
transcending the dreary plain of my high school chums, of i thought i
possessed, for the sheer immensity of the world that is beyond my senses and
experiences thus to date)....one example: being involved in a War.
PLEASE respond, i've nearly given up on culture and intelligence here in the
"outhouse" of the united states.
~~~i think there can be a certain beauty to an "outhouse", lacking
intelligence or not........perception of intelligence and culture, i think,
can be relative......it would be easy for me to generalize my podunk town that
i've lived in all my life as redneck and lacking any semblance of
intelligence.......but that would be a gross overgeneralization on my part,
for i don't know a tenth of the people here.....and intelligence is not the
end all to life......there might be an emotional tenderness to this outhouse
which puts intelligence to shame.......but what i thought i learned in high
school has made me cynical to the effect of presuming that all is void in my
little county(unless, of course, you've got less than a thousand people in
your town, which, in that case, just ignore everything previously said ;o))
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:57:22 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain
hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid
hitch-hikers out there anymore?....
sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"
system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you
"on the road"
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:20:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199801061557.HAA03897@f82.hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Im a hitchiker in my dreams, if that counts for anything. I feel too tied
down by my life to take off and also, its not very safe for girls on the
road, or thats the perception I get anyway...
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
> hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid
> hitch-hikers out there anymore?....
> sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
> please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"
> system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
> summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
> real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you
> "on the road"
> -julian
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:19:43 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: alexander supertramp
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In a message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:
<< who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>
if your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously doubt yours
is, what awaits is death.
have you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:21:40 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: German
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can anyone read german on this list?
if so, i was wondering if it was at all possible that you(singular or plural)
could perhaps translate a few small poems for me from kathy acker's "my
mother: demonology"......seeing as how the book in itself is confusing enough,
i thought perhaps my comprehension of it might increase if i knew what she was
plagirizing or saying in the german parts
gracias,
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:25:27 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: New Orleans
I'm planning to be in New Orleans this weekend. If anyone there would
like to have a drink, please email me at wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu. I also
thought I'd go by Burroughs' house to look at that new plaque. If
whoever posted on this recently still has the address or directions to
the house, I'd appreciate it if you would post them to be at the above
address.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:48:48 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: New Orleans
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Bill, do you mean williams house here in lawrence or do you mean a house
in New orleans. There is going to be an art show of some of williams
last collaboration in art in New orleans.
If you come to lawrence, i would love to have a cuppa with you.
patricia
Bill Gargan wrote:
>
> I'm planning to be in New Orleans this weekend. If anyone there would
> like to have a drink, please email me at wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu. I also
> thought I'd go by Burroughs' house to look at that new plaque. If
> whoever posted on this recently still has the address or directions to
> the house, I'd appreciate it if you would post them to be at the above
> address.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:50:12 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
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I remember him. Didn't Tim Cahill or some such author recently write
a book about him?
If he read the Beats at all he apparently read Kerouac without paying
much attention to Japhy's advice to "know the woods".
Stupid way to die.
love and lilies,
matt
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: alexander supertramp
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 1/6/98 11:19 AM
In a message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:
<< who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>
if your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously doubt yours
is, what awaits is death.
have you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:51:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: German
In-Reply-To: <c2725bf1.34b25a16@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Brian, I speak German fluently, and am finishing up my bachelor's degree in
it.:) I'd be happy to translate some poems for you!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:03:27 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Debra di Blasi
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Debra Di Blasi
"People content to name the will's inevitable defeat `God' or `History' will
not long endure these restless stories. Di Blasi writes for the rest of us,
the comfortless unconfessed of us." - H.L. Hix
has anyone on this list read either of her two novellas below and if so,
whereever did you find them?
"Drought" or "Say What You Like"
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:09:35 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
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Thanks to Bill for his recent post on this thread. It was my understanding that
discussions like this one on Borroughs and Wittgenstein were exactly the sort of
thing that the Beat-L was for. My memory of the list two years ago was that
there was much more of it. Not everyone will be interested in every thread, but
these things open doors for the people who are looking at these issues. I love
the personal and chatty too--and have been guilty of it enough, but it is nice
to see some serious thinking on issues like this on the list again.
James
IDDHI wrote:
>
>
> Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was as
> sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a book.
>
> Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
>
> ID
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:09:06 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 98-01-06 12:06:18 EST, you write:
<< I remember him. Didn't Tim Cahill or some such author recently write
a book about him?
~~~yes, a book was written about him within the past year or two
If he read the Beats at all he apparently read Kerouac without paying
much attention to Japhy's advice to "know the woods".
~~~seriously
Stupid way to die.
~~~yes, most unfortunately
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:19:00 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: German
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oh most gracias to you, my newfound friend!!!!!!!!!! ;o)
the first one:
eingeweiht in der Liebe
aber erst hier-
als die Lava herabfuhr
und ihr Hauch uns traf
am Fuss des Berges,
als zuletzt der erschvpfte Krater
den Schl|ssel preisgab
f|r diese verschlossenen Kvrper-
Wir traten ein in verwunschene Ra|me
und leuchteten das Dunkelaus
mit den Fingerspitzen
another one....
Innen ist deine Hufte ein Landungssteg
f|r meine Schiffe, die heimkommen
von zu grossen Fahrten.
Das Gl|ck wirkt ein Silbertau,
an dem ich Defestigt liege.
another........
Innen ist dein Mund ein flaumiges Nest
f|r meine fl|gge werdende Zunge.
Innen ist dein Fleisch...
das ich mit meinen Trdnen wasche
und das mich einmal aufwiegen wird.
fragment...
Innen sind deine Knochen helle Flvten,
aus denen ich Tvne zaubern kann,
die auch den Tod bestricken werden...
the last one
Ich bin noch schuldig. Heb mich auf.
Ich bin nicht schuldig. Heb mich auf.
Das Eiskorn lvs vom zugefrornen Aug,
brich mit den Blicken ein,
die blauen Grunde such,
schwimm, schau und tauch:
Ich bin es nicht.
Ich bin's.
thank you very much for whatever you can translate.......very much appreciated
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:20:43 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: hakim bey
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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has anyone ever read any poetry by a person named hakim bey?
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:27:32 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: perhaps someone might find an interest in this
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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sorry for some of the lines missing here and there - brian
i am posting this mainly to see if anyone has a reaction........maybe some of
you have read it before....got it off of a website
THE SELF-NARRATING UNIVERSE;
THE ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGY PRINCIPLE AND POSTMODERN LITERATURE
by
David Porush
Professor of Literature
Dept. LL&C
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
Troy, New York 12180
e-mail: porusd@rpi.edu
PH: (518) 276-8262
THE ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGICAL PRINCIPLE
The earth is quite friendly to life. Were the temperatures at certain
times in evolutionary history different by only a few degrees, or were gravity
much stronger or weaker, or were we further away from the sun or any closer,
or were water less abundant than it is, or for that matter, if any of the laws
of physics operated differently than they do, then life would never have
occurred on Earth. Think of the enormous collaboration among accidents that
made evolution itself possible. It becomes easy, then, to imagine an Earth
devoid of human intelligence. Change any little aspect of nature and you get a
sterile planet. Changing even one of the constants in physics -- gravitation,
the speed of light, Planck's constant, the coupling constant of the strong
force that binds nuclei, etc. -- would make life impossible. [Wesson, 1991
Carter, 1974]
But were these series of hazards and circumstances merely accidental? Or
does the universe conspire to bring intelligence into being? Is it possible
that one of the fundamental laws of the universe is that INTELLIGENT LIFE MUST
ARISE? Or to put it another way, is it possible the universe as we know it
couldn't exist unless we knew it? Approximately twenty years ago, Brandon
Carter, a physicist and philosopher posed the problem, and initiated a debate
that has raged since then, by pointing out an aspect of nature that is
crushingly obvious and yet peculiarly postmodern: The conditions of the
universe we observe must be such that they can produce an intelligent observer
of the universe, i.e., humans.
This idea is at the same time both very disturbing and humorously
Panglossian (or Liebnizian, I guess we might say, since Voltaire based his
Pangloss on that physicist). Everything has been ordered so things come out
for the best, from our perspective anyway. "In other words," as one physicist
notes, "the universe has the properties we observe today because if its
earlier properties had been much different, we would not be here as observers
now." (Gale, 1981) This Anthropic Principle ("AP" for short) has a whole range
of possible interpretations, from a rather weak formulation to very strong
paradigm that involves metaphysical considerations, willy nilly. Weak AP
inspects various physical phenomena with an eye to noting how they were
constrained within limits that were favorable to the origin of life and to
intelligence, looking for a collection of odd or striking coincidences that
collaborate to make the human mind possible (Davies, 1982; Leslie, 1989).Thus,
weak AP is a sort of functional gatekeeper on cosmological models, reminding
the physicist that any narrative of how the cosmos came to evolve the way it
did cannot permit factors which would preclude the emergence of life and
intelligence.
By contrast, Strong AP suggests that water flows and protons and neutrons
bind and DNA molecules zip and coil as they do because these phenomena made us
possible as observers to catalog them. In other words, Strong AP suggests that
the preconditions of the universe exist because
they made it possible for us to arrive on the scene to observe them, a cosmic
variation on the question of whether a tree falling in the forest makes a
sound if noone is there is hear it. The strongest AP goes so far as to suggest
that the universe has been purposefully organized in order to produce
intelligence (Hoyle, 1984; Davies, 1983). This implies that the conditions for
making intelligence possible feed back into the system, constraining which
branches of possibility universal evolution can take.
AP has been strengthened by startling results from a variety of
scientific disciplines as well as by some interesting speculations. Sub-atomic
particle behavior; biological and chemical organization; formal set theory;
coincidences in the recurrence of certain large numbers in physical formulas
(first noted by A.P. Dirac and elevated to the status of a unifying theory by
Eddington; see Dicke, 1961); the spontaneous emergence of complex, self-
organizing systems out of chaos; fairly substantive speculations about the
role of super-ordinate fields or multi-dimensional substrates that organize
our three-dimensional material reality; and even an hypothesis that the
universe is a giant super-computer designed to solve some unspecified problem,
which sounds more like a Vonnegut paranoid fantasy than good cosmology, but it
has received quite a bit of respectable attention (see Wright's 1985
discussion of Edward Fredkin's hypothesis). In addition to theological views
that I'll explore below, these help support the case that there is something
quite special about the interplay between the forces of nature and the
existence of intelligent observers that goes well beyond the interrelationship
of observer and observed in quantum physics.
REACTING TO ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGY
Even Weak AP present several shocks to our commonsense, modernist notions
of how nature operates. The most obvious is the tautological "feel" of this
reasoning: "everything is the way it is because if it were elsewise, they
would be different (or more precisely, X, which we know to exist, would not
have come into existence)." Filling the variable X with the idea of an
intelligent observer is only a red herring, for it could just as easily be
filled by "these brown wing-tipped Oxfords."
Of course Strong AP poses even greater challenges. Common sense tells us
that the preconditions of the universe that made life possible caused life. In
what way can our presence now possibly have influenced events which came
billions of years before us? But our biases about causality are bound up in
very human ideas about the arrow of time (Lewis, 1986) Physicists know there
are many arenas of the universe where time's arrow must be viewed as moving
both forwards and backwards in order to make sense of what we know, and so can
ideas of causality. Quantum physics has exposed whole arenas of subatomic
phenomena, and astrophysics and more orthodox cosmology, have potrayed regions
around black holes where commonsense notions of causation simply do not apply.
Furthermore, quantum mechanics has already shown us that there are events
which cannot happen the way they do unless an observation is made of them.
Check your sense of time, space, and causation at the door, ladies and
gentlemen, we're entering the realm of postmodern physics.
Perhaps the most disturbing idea in AP is the tacit attribution of
teleology - an intentionality or purposiveness - to the universe. As good
modernists, we have been accustomed to view this cosmos as a blind, reeling,
entropic, contingent, godless place, an egalitarian abode (in the Copernican
sense) where the universe treats all things with equal indifference, granting
no special status or favors to anyplace or any entity, a universal play where
humanity makes a haphazard appearance on stage and yet where noone else is
watching to appreciate our performance, or for that matter, the performance of
nature's grand design.
With shocking simplicity, AP suggests the show is all for our benefit; we
are the crown of creation. It's anthropomorphization (or anthropocentralism)
on a scale we haven't seen since Medieval theology. It encourages discussions
about reconciliations between ancient beliefs in God as Primum Mobile, man as
created in God's image, and a re-unification of spiritual and scientific
knowledge, of physics and metaphysics, on grounds favorable to metaphysics
(McLean, 1991; Peacocke, 1991; Smith, 1991; Nelson, 1991). Certainly the
Anthropic Principle in its strongest or broadest formulation invites an
equation between the actions and characteristics of the Universe and some
universal Intentional Impulse, a purpose, a because. We're here because the
Universe brought us into being so we could worship (or at least observe) It.
The most cogent objection to this metaphysical brand of AP, it seems to
me, points to a sort of tautology lurking in its premise: As soon as you look
at the universe as a place with a purpose, then you are already giving it an
intention, a mind. Nonetheless, it is hard to resist the clear attraction of
an emergent paradigm the lies somewhere between anthropic cosmology and anti-
chaos or complexity which points to the inevitable creation of more complex
systems out of less complex ones -- the rise of what Wiener called local
islands of organization in the universal tide toward entropy -- which has
created galaxies and the Earth's biosphere. It is also hard to deny that human
intelligence represents the ultimate expression of that complexity, re-
centering human life as an anti-entropic force. Even a moderately weak AP
challenges the evolutionary view of how higher levels of organization and
control emerge. In moderate AP, the matehamtics of blind variation and natural
selection simply don't work out; mere accident cannot explain the remarkable
fine-tuning required for the universe to have given rise to life, let alone
human intelligence (see Balashov, 1991 for a review of this position; see
Jantsch, 1980 for a rebuttal).
There is no space here to give more than this glancing account of the
very rich literature and debate this emergent paradigm has provoked. The major
and most rigorous discussion of AP occurs in a variety of reputable physics,
astrophysics, general science, and philosophy journals. An encyclopedic
account, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle (Barrow & Tipler, 1986) received
such vociferous and voluminous reaction that one writer estimated that the
letters and reviews alone would fill another volume of equal size. I would
also refer my readers to a very good, recent summary of AP in the American
Journal of Physics (Balashov, 1991), which also serves as a resource letter
and bibliography about AP. However, for our purposes, AP begs some very
provocative questions about how we view the relations between scientific
discourse and literary narrative, and it also suggests a route to a synthesis
between them, as I hope to show in the rest of this paper.
LITERARY THEORY, NEO-CRYPTO-COPERNICANISM, AND STRONG AP: THE
SELF-NARRATING UNIVERSE
Balashov (1991) frames the foundation for the Anthropic Principle in this
intriguing way:
AP was proposed as a counterbalance to the unwarranted extension of the
Copernican view that we do not occupy a privileged place in the Universe to
its extreme dogmatic version that our place cannot be privileged in any way.
I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that most constructivists,
poststructuralists, deconstructionists and New Historicists - and therefore
much of the theory that informs debate in the humanistic disciplines today,
even, I venture, at this conference - are orthodox Copernicans in this sense
as well. We narrativists adamantly refuse to privilege any discourse or theory
or paradigm that posits an a priori term or is nostalgic for an aboriginal
source of meaning. Yet, as Balashov points out, this Copernican
egalitarianism, at least from the point of view of nature, "is obviously
untrue, since our mere existence as complex physiochemical creatures requires
certain conditions that are met only in particular sites in the Universe and
at some definite stages in its physical history."
I call this cosmological model offered by Strong AP "The Self- Narrating
Universe," since it views the Universe as struggling to give birth to
intelligence in order to create an observer exactly like us. In this scenario,
a mechanical device that registers events as they occur and merely records
data won't do. Rather, the Universe requires a decidedly human observer who
cannot help but abstract data, leap to conclusions, make metaphorical
connections, invest silence with significance ... in short, Tell the
Universe's Story based upon what it understands. I am even, at times, tempted
to call AP cosmology "The Meaning Universe" because AP does not simply portray
a world where intelligence narrates an idle series of events but rather invest
the world with meaning.
Let me indulge a personal digression for the sake of an analogy. Here at
Rensselaer I co-direct a research project - Autopoeisis - that has developed a
"story-telling program." The computer simulates a series of events and
encounters among characters in a microworld (simulator) and then recounts them
as they occur, without regard to the coherence of the story or any other
feature. Gameworld (as we affectionately call it) is no more intelligent, by
this metric, than a digital clock that "tells" time. By contrast, an
intelligent human story teller, even an unsophisticated one, chooses,
rearranges, omits, embellishes and shapes any delivery of information. One of
the questions my physician asks my five-year old son this week when he was
taking his complete physical is "Can you tell a story?" And one of the great
lessons of postmodernism for all disciplines is that there is no non-fictive
narrative, no weightless, transparent delivery of information from one human
to another. The human narrator is self-conscious and self-reflective always,
implicitly or explicitly. AP implies a world where all events are meaningfully
disposed towards creating the very intelligence that narrates them
meaningfully, like a human, not the machine, storyteller. The result is a
purposeful feedback loop, very much like postmodern stories where the function
of the story is to demonstrate how it came to be told, and where the self-
consciousness or tail-biting interplay between story and teller moves to the
foreground of the narrative. In short, Strong AP implies a world where form
and function, purpose and result, are united in the creation of an
intelligence that can tell that story. Throughout his oeuvre Samuel Beckett's
question was, "Am I the teller or the told?" AP suggests the answer to this
ontological-epistemological question is "both."
AP AND THE SYNTHESIS OF POSTMODERN SCIENCE AND LITERATURE
C.P. Snow was right, in his own fussy way. The great dialectic of our
culture is captured in the contrast between the discourses of literature and
the discourses of the sciences. But this is not a result of simple differences
in education, as C.P. Snow suggested, nor even in any hostility between
scientists and authors as Snow implied, nor even one of mere temperament.
Rather, it is the result of the devotion by scientists and litterateurs to two
different epistemologies, two different ways of expressing what they are
trying to know and two different visions of what it is valuable to know. And
these epistemological points of view are as mutually exclusive and command as
profound a commitment by their adherents as any fundamental faiths do.
A quick way to understand this dialectic is as follows: three hundred
years of science persistently excluded or de-privileged the human self as an
intentional, expressive object from scientific discourse. At the same time,
science also lacked a coherent formal model of natural language. As the result
of its rationalist inheritance and its persistent objectification of the
observer, science relies on a discourse that has had inordinate difficulty
enfolding or describing its own acts of knowing. From the very early days of
the Royal Society when Wilkins and Sprat failed in their attempt to define a
pure language of science, devoid of metaphor or embellishment, science has
never successfully purged the messiness of metaphor and the polysemy of human
language from its mise-en-scene. And while the Newtonian-Copernican-Carteisan
paradigm pretended to exile the human observer from the stage of science, we
now know that Newton's sleep was an aberrant age, a temporary hallucination
that history will undoubtedly consign to a minority view. The postmodern
sciences that bring this struggle into relief are quantum mechanics, the study
of nature at the subatomic level, and cybernetics, the study of how
information is used in systems of control and communication. By Norbert
Wiener's own account (Wiener, 1947) cybernetics grew out of a direct attempt
to remove the human mind from the picture of physics where the Heisenberg
Uncertainty Principle had placed it- to banish the human mind from the
epistemological loop. By giving an algorithm for the information required to
reduce the probablism in the sub-atomic scenario, and by proposing a
mechanical/formal explanation of control systems like the human mind,
cyberneticists like Wiener, von Neumann, and Turing hoped to create a complete
and consistent rational system that did not need a subjective observer to be
understood. Nonetheless, these two phenomena - the intelligent self (the mind)
and language - are certainly mirrors of each other. That is why Alan Turing
believed that we know a creature is intelligent when it can use language
intelligently and he positioned such a belief as the essential test of
intelligence in a machine brain, a test that still informs AI debate. Yet when
science comes to inspect the seat of intelligence, the brain/mind, it is
virtually silent on the point of self- knowledge or self-consciousness and
quite dumb on the matter of how language expresses mental events. Scientific
language reduces or eliminates all those things that make literature
interesting, exciting, stimulating -- or in a word, literary: ambiguity,
competing interpretations, silence, paranomasia, passion, multiple meanings,
mystery, and metaphor. By contrast, literature has always been, in part,
discourse that foregrounds the self using language.
So in this postmodern technological age, what I have elsewhere called the
Cybernetic Age, when the question of how the mind uses languages has come to
dominate center stage across the disciplines, a postmodern literature has
arisen to underscore this difference in discourses. If the important
literature of our age has any common feature, it is the shared attempt to
register the difficulties of using language to capture knowledge and express
experience. Some might even argue that such a concern is common to all
literatures of any age. Yet many significant postmodern authors - William
Burroughs, Samuel Beckett, Mark Leyner, Italo Calvino, Kathy Acker, Joseph
McElroy, Thomas Pynchon, John Barth, Umberto Eco, Don DeLillo, Donald
Barthelme, Robert Coover, Marianne Hauser, Laurie Anderson, William Gibson,
Bruce Sterling, Philip K. Dick, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., among others - record
their struCybernetic Age, when the question of how the mind uses languages has
come to dominate center stage across the disciplines, a postmodern literature
has arisen to underscore this difference in discourses.
The motivation behind this choice of cybernetics is fairly obvious: after
all, the cybernetics of Norbert Weiner, John von Neumann, and Alan Turing
claimed to develop a rational and complete system for formalizing
communication and information, especially human communication: in short, the
very stuff of what literature claims as its own. However, in its relatively
naive attempt to formulate a mathematics of information, science discovered
something that all literary acts express tacitly: Information cannot be
understood in a vacuum. Any significant communication cannot be calculated,
let alone deciphered, apart from the disposition of the system of meaning in
which it is imbedded. Indeed, as the literary text always signals, information
is context. When treated as a simple quantity, information literally doesn't
"make sense." You can refine the way telephones transmit information, but you
can do little to make sense of what the information means to the people
conversing on either end of the line.
For the postmodern author, negating this premise is simple. The author
needs merely to use language with such a degree of complexity and meaningful
indecipherability that he or she exposes the impossibility of creating a
formal system to account for the amount of information in, say, even a single
metaphor or turn of phrase. The message of these "cybernetic" (or better,
"anti-cybernetic") fictions is clear: the artistic use of language offers a
more complete, if irrational, discourse about the facts of our experience,
including our experience of phenomena outside ourselves. In brief, what marks
literary epistemology is a discourse which is explicitly concerned with itself
as an act of human knowledge. As Julia Kristeva quipped, "The purpose of
literature is to enlarge the domain of the human." In an era when the prospect
of intelligent machines and the technologization or automation of human
experience looms large, literature has a special urgency in pressing back.
In the intervening years, conventional science has done little to address
this important distinction between information and meaning, or to paraphrase
cyberneticist Gordon Pask, between a stipulation of a system's message and its
purpose. In literary terms, we would say merely that science lacks an account
of its own point of view. Science has no formulation for the fact of its own
intelligent narrative that is as satisfying or as comfortable as the ones we
normally assume in narrative disciplines like literature, where the fact of
the human mind as both object and subject of discourse is the predicate for
all other work.
I view this tension in science between the mind's meaningful narration
and what it purports to observe, both in the external world and the internal ,
mental world as THE postmodern question, informing not only the sciences but
giving a fertile territory for much of the interesting literature of our
period. In essence, into the gap created by science's own inability to deal
with the fact of the observer, rushes a postmodern literary program: to prove
the relative epistemological potency of literature in the face of a general
epistemological impotence of any other rational program. In other words,
postmodern authors like Pynchon, Barth, Beckett, Acker, and many others have
made irrational hay while the rational sun of science still shines.
Now, science's own methods have brought it to confront, almost despite
itself, the question of the proper relation between mind and nature, and
between the discourse of mind and the order of the cosmos. As a result, AP
suggests a strong and more-than-metaphorical correspondence between the
concerns of postmodern literature and science. Both Weak and Strong AP are
united by the need to develop a formal model of the universe that will enfold
or account for the existence of the human mind, as opposed to relying on
formal mathematical descriptions of the dynamics of matter and energy
interactions or of neutral information in a system. Rather than focusing on
interactions among things in space-time or on the properties of spacetime
itself, AP inspects all data in terms of how well it explains the fact of
human intelligence, indeed the very same human intelligence that is
examiningthose facts. Thus AP is a scientific paradigm that reads like a self-
reflexive postmodern
fiction. So AP - an expressly postmodern science - shares an epistemological
ideal with postmodern literature:
PORUSH'S PRINCIPLE OF EPISTEMOLOGICAL POTENCY
Descriptions of any intelligent system (and the Universe is obviously
one; fictional texts create others) in order to achieve epistemolgoical
potency must include accounts not only of how the system is regulated and
organized, and of how it communicates among its own parts, but also of how it
knows and describes itself.
In other words, Any epistemologically potent system must include a
discourse that enfolds its own intelligence.
The Cosmic Anthropic Principle, then, suggests a pure synthesis on the
level of meaningful narrative between the two epistemologies of literature and
science by offering the first scientific paradigm to embrace itself as an act
of human knowledge. AP is struggling to describe how the human narrative of
the cosmos is not mere reportage but fundamentally creative of and essential
to the structure of reality.
SOURCES CITED
Barrow, J.D. and F.J. Tipler, 1986 The Anthropic Cosmological Principle
Clarendon, Oxford.
Balashov, Y.V. 1991 "Resource Letter AP-1: The anthropic pricniple," Am.
J. Physics 59 (12):1069-1076
Campbell, J. 1989 The Improbable Machine Simon & Schuster, New York.
Carter, Brandon 1974 "Large Number Coincidences and the Anthropic
Principle in Cosmology," Confrontation of Cosmological Theories with
Observational Data: Proceedings of the Second Copernicus Symposium ,
edited by M.A. Longair. D. Reidel Publishing Co, 1974.
Dicke, R.H. 1961 "Dirac's Cosmology and Mach's Principle," Nature 192
440-441
Davies, P.C. W. 1982 The Accidental Universe Cambridge UP.
Davies, P. 1983 God and the New Physics (Dent & Sons, London 1983)
Gale, George 1981 "The Anthropic Principle," Scientific American 243,
6:154-171
Jantsch, E. 1980 The Self-Organizing Universe Pergamon, Oxford.
Leslie, J. 1989 Universes. Routledge, London & New York.
Leslie, J. 1991 "Time and the Anthropic Principle," Mind 101,
403:525-540.
Lewis, David 1986 "Counterfactual Dependence and Time's Arrows," in his
Philosophical Papers , II. Oxford, Oxford University Press: 32-66.
McLean, Murdith 1991 "Residual Natural Evil and Anthropic Reasoning," J.
Rel.
Stud 27:173-188.
Nelson, James S. 1991 "Does Science Clarify God's Relation to the
World?" Zygon 26,4::519-525
Peacocke, Arthur, 1991 "God's Action in the Real World," Zygon 26,
4::455-476
Pochet, T. et al. 1991 "The binding of light nuclei and the anthropic
principle," Astronomy & Astrophysics 243:1-4
Porush, D. 1985 The Soft Machine: Cybernetic Fiction , Methuen, London,
1985.
Porush, D. 1988 "Whatever Happened to Nature in the Postmodern Novel:
The Three Umpires Conundrum" in Perceiving Nature edited by D.M. DeLuca.
Honolulu, 1988: 178-185.
Smith, Quentin 1991 "The Anthropic Coincidences, Evil, and the
Disconfirmation of Theism" J. Rel. Stud 29:347-350
Wesson, Paul S. "Constants and Cosmology: The Nature and Origin of
Fundamental Constants in Astrophysics and Particle Physics" Phys. Rev
365-406
Winograd, T. 1981 "What Does it Mean to Understand Language?" in Donald
Norman, ed. Perspectives on Cognitive Science. Norwood, N.J: Ablex
Publishing.
Wright, R. 1985 "The On -Off Universe," The Sciences (Jan/Feb) 7.
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The Need for Transcendence in the Postmodern World
In this postmodern world, cultural conflicts are becoming more dangerous than
any time in history. A new model of coexistence is needed, based on man's
transcending himself.
By Vaclav Havel
There are thinkers who claim that, if the modern age began with the discovery
of America, it also ended in America. This is said to have occurred in the
year 1969, when America sent the first men to the moon. From this historical
moment, they say, a new age in the life of humanity can be dated.
I think there are good reasons for suggesting that the modern age has ended.
Today, many things indicate that we are going thorough a transitional period,
when it seems that something is on the way out and something else is painfully
being born. It is as if something were crumbling, decaying, and exhausting
itself, while something else, still indistinct, were arising from the rubble.
Periods of history when values undergo a fundamental shift are certainly not
unprecedented. This happened in the Hellenistic period, when from the ruins of
the classical world the Middle Ages were gradually born. It happened during
the Renaissance, which opened the way to the modern era. The distinguishing
features of such transitional periods are a mixing and blending of cultures
and a plurality or parallelism of intellectual and spiritual worlds. These are
periods when all consistent value systems collapse, when cultures distant in
time and space are discovered or rediscovered. They are periods when there is
a tendency to quote, to imitate, and to amplify, rather than to state with
authority or integrate. New meaning is gradually born from the encounter, or
the intersection, of many different elements.
Today, this state of mind or of the human world is called postmodernism. For
me, a symbol of that state is a Bedouin mounted on a camel and clad in
traditional robes under which he is wearing jeans, with a transistor radio in
his hands and an ad for Coca-Cola on the camel's back. I am not ridiculing
this, nor am I shedding an intellectual tear over the commercial expansion of
the West that destroys alien cultures. I see it rather as a typical expression
of this multicultural era, a signal that an amalgamation of cultures is taking
place. I see it as proof that something is happening, something is being born,
that we are in a phase when one age is succeeding another, when everything is
possible. Yes, everything is possible, because our civilization does not have
its own unified style, its own spirit, its own aesthetic.
Science and Modern Civilization
This is related to the crisis, or to the transformation, of science as
the basis of the modern conception of the world.The dizzying development of
this science, with its unconditional faith in objective reality and its
complete dependency on general and rationally knowable laws, led to the birth
of modern technological civilization. It is the first civilization in the
history of the human race that spans the entire globe and firmly binds
together all human societies, submitting them to a common global destiny. It
was this science that enabled man, for the first time, to see each objective
reality and its complete dependency on general and rationally knowable
At the same time, however, the relationship to the world that the modern
science fostered and shaped now appears to have exhausted its potential. It is
increasingly clear that, strangely, the relationship is missing something. It
fails to connect with the most intrinsic nature of reality and with natural
human experience. It is now more of a source of disintegration and doubt than
a source of integration and meaning. It produces what amounts to a state of
schizophrenia: Man as an observer is becoming completely alienated from
himself as a being.
Classical modern science described only the surface of things, a single
dimension of reality. And the more dogmatically science treated it as the only
dimension, as the very essence of reality, the more misleading it became.
Today, for instance, we may know immeasurably more about the universe than our
ancestors did, and yet, it increasingly seems they knew something more
essential about it than we do, something that escapes us. The same thing is
true of nature and of ourselves. The more thoroughly all our organs and their
functions, their internal structure, and the biochemical reactions that take
place within them are described, the more we seem to fail to grasp the spirit,
purpose, and meaning of the system that they create together and that we
experience as our unique "self".
And thus today we find ourselves in a paradoxical situation. We enjoy all the
achievements of modern civilization that have made our physical existence on
this earth easier so in many important ways. Yet we do not know exactly what
to do with ourselves, where to turn. The world of our experiences seems
chaotic, disconnected, confusing. There appear to be no integrating forces, no
unified meaning, no true inner understanding of phenomena in our experience of
the world. Experts can explain anything in the objective world to us, yet we
understand our own lives less and less. In short, we live in the postmodern
world, where everything is possible and almost nothing is certain.
When Nothing is Certain
This state of affairs has its social and political consequences. The single
planetary civilization to which we all belong confronts us with global
challenges. We stand helpless before them because our civiliza
planetary civilization to which we all belong confronts us with global
challenges. We stand helpless before them because our civilization has
essentially globalized only the surfaces of our lives. But our inner self
continues to have a life of its own. And the fewer answers the era of rational
knowledge provides to the basic questions of human Being, the more deeply it
would seem that people, behind its back as it were, cling to the ancient
certainties of their tribe. Because of this, individual cultures, increasingly
lumpe
Cultural conflicts are increasing and are understandably more dangerous today
than at any other time in history. The end of the era of rationalism has been
catastrophic. Armed with the same supermodern
weapons, often from the same suppliers, and followed by television cameras,
the members of various tribal cults are at war with one another. By day, we
work with statistics; in the evening, we consult astrologers and frighten
ourselves with thrillers about vampires. The abyss between rational and the
spiritual, the external and the internal, the objective and the subjective,
the technical and the moral, the universal and the unique, constantly grows
deeper.
Politicians are rightly worried by the problem of finding the key to ensure
the survival of a civilization that is global and at the same time clearly
multicultural. How can generally respected mechanisms of
peaceful coexistence be set up, and on what set of principles are they to be
established?
These questions have been highlighted with particular urgency by the two most
important political events in the second half of the twentieth century: the
collapse of colonial hegemony and the fall of communism. The artificial world
order of the past decades has collapsed, and a new, more-just order has not
yet emerged. the central political task of the final years of this century,
then, is the creation of a new model of coexistence among the various
cultures, peoples, races, and religious spheres within a single interconnected
civilization. This task is all the more urgent because other threats to
contemporary humanity brought about by one-dimensional development of
civilization are growing more serious all the time.
Many believe this task can be accomplished through technical means. That is,
they believe it can be accomplished through the intervention of new
organizational, political, and diplomatic instruments. Yes, it is clearly
necessary to invent organizational structures appropriate to the present
multicultural age. But such efforts are doomed to failure if they do not grow
out of something deeper, out of generally held values.
This, too, is well known. And in searching for the most natural source for the
creation of a new world order, we usually look to an area that is the
traditional foundation of modern justice and a great achievement of the modern
age: to a set of values that - among other things - were first declared in
this building (Independence Hall). I am referring to respect for the unique
human being and his or her liberties and inalienable rights and to the
principle that all power derives from the people. I am, in short, referring to
the fundamental ideas of modern democracy.
What I am about to say may sound provocative, but I feel more and more
strongly that even these ideas are not enough, that we must go farther and
deeper. The point is that the solution they offer is still, as it were,
modern, derived from the climate of the Enlightenment and from a view of man
and his relation to the world that has been characteristic of the Euro-
American sphere for the last two centuries. Today, however, we are in a
different place and facing a different situation, one to which classical
modern solutions in themselves do not give a satisfactory response. After all,
the very principle of inalienable human rights, conferred on man by the
Creator, grew out of the typically modern notion that man - as a being capable
of knowing nature and the world - was the pinnacle of creation and lord of the
world,
This modern anthropocentrism inevitably meant that He who allegedly endowed
man with his inalienable rights began to disappear from the world: He was so
far beyond the grasp of modern science that he was gradually pushed into a
sphere of privacy of sorts, if not directly into a sphere of private fancy -
that is, to a place where public obligations no longer apply. The existence of
a higher authority than man himself simply began to get in the way of human
aspirations.
Two Transcendent Ideas
The idea of human rights and freedoms must be an integral part of any
meaningful world order. Yet, I think it must be anchored in a different place,
and in a different way, than has been the case so far. If it is to be more
than just a slogan mocked by half the world, it cannot be expressed in the
language of a departing era, and it must not be mere froth floating on the
subsiding waters of faith in a purely scientific relationship to the
world.Paradoxically, inspiration for the renewal of this lost integrity can
once again be found in science, in a science that is new - let us say
postmodern - a science producing ideas that in a certain sense allow it to
transcend its own limits. I will give two examples:
The first is the Anthropic Cosmological Principle. Its authors and adherents
have pointed out that from the countless possible courses of its evolution the
universe took the only one that enabled life to
emerge. This is not yet proof that the aim of the universe has always been
that it should one day see itself through our eyes. But adherents have pointed
out that from t
I think the Anthropic Cosmological Principle brings to us an idea perhaps as
old as humanity itself: that we are not at all just an accidental anomaly, the
microscopic caprice of a tine particle whirling in the endless depth of the
universe. Instead, we are mysteriously connected to the entire universe, we
are mirrored in it, just as the entire evolution of the universe is mirrored
in us.
Until recently, it might have seemed that we were an unhappy bit of mildew on
a heavenly body whirling in space among many that have no mildew on them at
all. this was something that classical science could explain. Yet, the moment
it begins to appear that we are deeply connected to the entire universe,
science reaches the outer limits of its powers. Because it is founded on the
search for universal laws, it cannot deal with singularity, that is, with
uniqueness. The universe is a unique event and a unique story, and so far we
are the unique point of that story. But unique events and stories are the
domain of poetry, not science. With the formulation of the Anthropic
Cosmological Principle, science has found itself on the border between formula
and story, between science and myth. In that, however, science has
paradoxically returned, in a roundabout way, to man, and offers him - in new
clothing - his lost integrity. It does so by anchoring him once more in the
cosmos.
The second example is the Gaia Hypothesis. This theory brings together proof
that the dense network of mutual interactions between the organic and
inorganic portions of the earth's surface form a single system, a kind of
mega-organism, a living planet - Gaia - named after an ancient goddess who is
recognizable as an archetype of the Earth Mother in perhaps all religions.
According to the Gaia Hypothesis, we are parts of a greater whole. If we
endanger her, she will dispense with us in the interest of a higher value -
that is, life itself.
Toward Self-Transcendence
What makes the Anthropic Principle and the Gaia Hypothesis so inspiring? One
simple thing: Both remind us, in modern language, of what we have long
suspected, of what we have long projected into our forgotten myths and perhaps
what has always lain dormant within us as archetypes. That is, the awareness
of our being anchored in the earth and the universe, the awareness that we are
not here alone nor for ourselves alone, but that we are an integral part of
higher, mysterious entities against whom it is not advisable to blaspheme.
This forgotten awareness is encoded in all religions. All cultures anticipate
it in various forms. It is one of the things that form the basis of man's
understanding of himself, of his place in the world, and ultimately of the
world as such.A modern philosopher once said: "Only a God can save us now."
Yes, the only real hope of people today is probably a renewal of our certainty
that we are rooted in the earth and, at the same time, in the cosmos. This
awareness endows us with the capacity for
self-transcendence. Politicians at international forums may reiterate a
thousand times that the basis of the new world order must be universal
respects for human rights, but it will mean nothing as long as this imperative
does not derive from the respect of the miracle of Being, the miracle of the
universe, the miracle of nature, the miracle of our own existence. Only
someone who submits to the authority of the universal order and of creation,
who values the right to be a part of it and a participant in it, can genuinely
value himself and his neighbors, and thus honor their rights as well.
It logically follows that, in today's multicultural world, the truly reliable
path to coexistence, to peaceful coexistence and creative cooperation, must
start from what is at the root of all cultures and what lies infinitely deeper
in human hearts and minds than political opinion, convictions, antipathies, or
sympathies - it must be rooted in self-transcendence:
Transcendence as a hand reached out to those close to us, to foreigners, to
the human community, to all living creatures, to nature, to the universe.
Transcendence as a deeply and joyously experienced need to be in harmony even
with what we ourselves are not, what we do not understand, what seems distant
from us in time and space, but with which we are nevertheless mysteriously
linked because, together with us, all this constitutes a single world.
Transcendence as the only real alternative to extinction.
The Declaration of Independence states that the Creator gave man the right to
liberty. It seems man can realize that liberty only if he does noto liberty.
It seems man can realize that
About the Author
Vaclav Havel is the president of the Czech Republic. The speech was made in
Independence Hall, Philadelphia, July 4, 1994.
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD
Content-Type: text/plain
>> A few things.
>> f) for those studying the beats, i have nothing against that - not my
>> thing.
>
>or not my thang -- the African for thing according to Tom Wolfe
>
>david rhaesa
>at the Beat-Hotel
>
what?
-Greg
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:38:31 PST
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: hitch-hiking....
Content-Type: text/plain
I would love to hitchhike and I planned to start doing so last summer...
but ended up, well as things always end up, never started and never
finished.
I always wondered if there's still a lot of people out there picking up
hitchers, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of people in our nation who
would be willing to risk life and limb to get someone a ride.
Anyhow, feel free to stop by Stillwater Minnesota (near st
paul/minneapolis) if your hitching next summer.
-greg
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:40:11 PST
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
Content-Type: text/plain
>
><< who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>
>
>if your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously
doubt yours
>is, what awaits is death.
>
>have you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?
>
>
>brian
>
that is an increbile story... that's all there is to it, makes you
realize that if wandering out and living an honest life is your thing,
it's not impossible.
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:41:10 -0500
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From: Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>
Subject: Bookwoman goes Beat
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This is a work in progress, should be finished this week. Let me know
what you think.
http://boondock.com/bookwoman/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:48:52 PST
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: alexander supertramp
Content-Type: text/plain
Jon Krackaurer (correct spelling?) wrote a book called "Into the Wild"
about Alexander Supertramp. It is an excellent book, well researched
with extensive interviews of the many people supertramp touched during
the two years between "dissappearing" and "reappearing" dead in the
Alaskan wilderness.
Krackaurer is an expert mountain climber and outdoorsman, a writer for
Outside magazine. You might know of his most recent expeditition, he was
one of the few who survived the summit trip of Mt. Everest in which a
blizzard killed several people. He wrote a book about it of course,
which I have not read.
Anyway, "Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the
Alaskan wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die
is from a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress
brought on by suburbia and corporate work.
He may have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw
up simply by dying in the wilderness.
-Greg
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:53:42 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 98-01-06 12:45:35 EST, you write:
<< that is an increbile story... that's all there is to it, makes you
realize that if wandering out and living an honest life is your thing,
it's not impossible. >>
perhaps incredible to an extent, but also to make you realize that if not
impossible, at least makes sure that you plan on doing with an intelligent
manner at the same time.....by all my best intuitions, i fully realize if i
were to attempt that right now, i'd probably wind up dying as well.......but
that's just inexperience on top of everything else.....
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:53:53 -0500
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From: Susan L Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: hitch-hiking
Content-Type: text/plain
I realize that this isn't _exactly_ the same as hitch-hiking, but given the
state of the country today, it may be an acceptable alternative...
During the summer of 96', a friend of mine bought an unlimited pass from
Greyhound (I don't remember how much it cost) and spent the summer seeing the
country. He still had a great adventure and met lots of interesting people, but
he just didn't actually hitch rides from people. The way I understand the pass
is that you can go anywhere you want, anytime, until the pass expires.
I would love to do it someday, but I agree with whoever said that its probably
more dangerous for a young woman out there.
This is my first post to the list...next time I'll try for something a little
more on topic!
Susan
P.S. Julian-As far as cities in Michigan go, Port Huron isn't so bad! I've
lived in Michigan pretty much my whole life, and have seen far worse. If you
go to college, you'll find more of the kind of people that you seek. Perhaps
even some of the people that you know right now will become enlightened as they
mature also.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:58:35 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Burroughs, Wittgenstein
In-Reply-To: <199801060802.DAA29006@ionline.net>
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I want to speak out wholeheartedly in support of Mike's queries regarding
Wittgenstein and Burroughs-- two major thinkers on language in our
century. I can only assume that anyone that would dismiss this kind of
question hasn't read any Burroughs, or doesn't care to think about what
they've read. Burroughs was as much of a language theorist as anyone, and
his ideas can be batted around with those who explored language in a
non-fictional setting. I've only had a chance to read the first chapter of
"Wising up the Marks" and this is exactly what's going on in that book.
Burroughs has referred to himself as a pure scientist, risking his sanity
on forays of investigative research into bizarre psychological,
linguistic, and pharmacological realms. Sometimes in his more theoretical
passages, it even reads like a textbook.
When Sherri said:
"and i agree that Burroughs whole take on language could be viewed as a
study of semiotics."
she was bang on. If you want to see Burroughs on semiotics, read "the book
of breeething", a study in glyphic languages, sign systems, and Hassan I
Sabbah. Or, I refer you to my post on Brion Gysin's work in "The
Exterminator":
"The idea, as far as I can tell, is that Gysin rubs out the word by first
permutating phrases so that they lose any singular meaning, becoming
merely an arrangement yielding polysemous underpinnings when mixed; and
secondly by a semiotic shift to typographic symbols, which shifts the
signifier/signified relationship from letter-phonetic based
representations with their aural basis to a purely visual sign. The word
is finally rubbed out when words are lost to calligraphy without meaning,
writing without communication, signifiers without a signified."
Sure, affective fallacy is great, but its fun to use your brain sometimes
too.
And for the person whose only exposure to serious thought about language
is through an AOL chat room, maybe you would learn more about what you
despise if you actually read a book. I suggest Wittgenstein or Derrida for
fun.
Neil
Double Major - English Literature & Computer Science.
"Whenever I bring up philosophy you always get a headache!"
"What do you know about Wittgenstein or any of the greats?"
"He's read the brown book once and thinks he knows philosophy."
The Toronto Research Group
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:08:27 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: New Orleans
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At 11:25 AM 1/6/98 EST, Bill Gargan wrote:
>If whoever posted on this recently still has
>the address or directions to the house, I'd appreciate
>it if you would post them to be at the above
>address.
Hey Bill,
According to _Tribe_ magazine, the address is:
509 Wagner St. in Algiers.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:27:31 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
In-Reply-To: <199801061748.JAA06563@f135.hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote
>Anyway, "Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the
>Alaskan wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die
>is from a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress
>brought on by suburbia and corporate work.
>He may have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw
>up simply by dying in the wilderness.
>
>-Greg
Interesting comments Greg.
I just read Krackaurer's book. However, as one who has spent a little time
in the wilderness I must say that anyone who walks into an Alaskan
"wildernerss" with a few books, a 22 rifle and 25 pounds of rice is asking
for trouble. That Alex was an intelligent young man made his decision even
sadder.
I take exception to your last comment "... you CAN NOT screw up simply by
dying in the wilderness." The only time you haven't screwed up if you die
in the wilderness, is if you die of old age. Any death that could be
avoided by living intelligently is a stupid way to die.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:50:03 EST
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From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: alexander supertramp
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Ok, I'll take the bait... who exactly is Alexander Supertramp?
And while I'm asking... Has anybody here heard of a poet named Karen Fish? Not
very beat, but still an excellent excellent writer (who unfortunately is a
little hard to find...the books I mean.)
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:53:47 -0500
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From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <199801061557.HAA03897@f82.hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 07:57 AM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:
> hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid
>hitch-hikers out there anymore?....
> sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
> please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"
>system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
>summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
>real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you
>"on the road"
>-julian
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
Julian, aren't you the 18 year old kid who has experience
beyond your years. You're about to start a flame war with
your provocative remarks. I'm looking forward to it, it could
be a doozy.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:01:45 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Florian Cramer <cantsin@ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Re: German
In-Reply-To: <6ddad5b8.34b26786@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Kindlesan wrote:
> oh most gracias to you, my newfound friend!!!!!!!!!! ;o)
>
> the first one:
>
> eingeweiht in der Liebe
> aber erst hier-
> als die Lava herabfuhr
> und ihr Hauch uns traf
> am Fuss des Berges,
> als zuletzt der erschvpfte Krater
> den Schl|ssel preisgab
> f|r diese verschlossenen Kvrper-
initiated into love
but only here
when lava came down
and its breath (/breeze) touched us
at the base of the mountain
when the exhausted crater finally
divulged the key
for these locked (/sealed) bodies-
We entered spellbound rooms
and shed light on the darkness
with our fingertips
>
> Wir traten ein in verwunschene Ra|me
> und leuchteten das Dunkelaus
> mit den Fingerspitzen
>
>
> another one....
>
> Innen ist deine Hufte ein Landungssteg
> f|r meine Schiffe, die heimkommen
> von zu grossen Fahrten.
>
> Das Gl|ck wirkt ein Silbertau,
> an dem ich Defestigt liege.
>
Inside your hip is a landing stage
for my ships coming home
from overly long journeys (/voyage).
Joy (/fortune) weaves a silver rope,
to which I am anchored.
> another........
>
> Innen ist dein Mund ein flaumiges Nest
> f|r meine fl|gge werdende Zunge.
> Innen ist dein Fleisch...
>
> das ich mit meinen Trdnen wasche
> und das mich einmal aufwiegen wird.
>
Inside your mouth is a downy nest
for my tongue becoming able to fly.
Inside is your flesh....
that I rinse with my tears
and that will balance me out (/sustain me) some day.
> fragment...
>
> Innen sind deine Knochen helle Flvten,
> aus denen ich Tvne zaubern kann,
> die auch den Tod bestricken werden...
>
Inside your bones are bright flutes
I can conjure tunes out of,
which will also charm death...
> the last one
>
> Ich bin noch schuldig. Heb mich auf.
> Ich bin nicht schuldig. Heb mich auf.
>
> Das Eiskorn lvs vom zugefrornen Aug,
> brich mit den Blicken ein,
> die blauen Grunde such,
> schwimm, schau und tauch:
>
> Ich bin es nicht.
> Ich bin's.
I am still guilty. Take me up.
I am not guilty. Take me up.
Remove the ice grain from my frozen eye,
break in with your glance,
look for the blue grounds,
swim, look, and dive.
It's not me
It's me.
>
> thank you very much for whatever you can translate.......very much appreciated
> brian
As a kraut, I bet this is no canonical literature, but some
lowbrow/vanity press/highschool stuff. Acker once had a German
boyfriend, maybe he or his circle of friends are connected to the
"source".
Florian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:12:05 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Florian Cramer <cantsin@ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Re: German
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.96.980106233129.12006C-100000@komma.fddi2.fu-berlin.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Florian Cramer wrote:
> Inside your hip is a landing stage
Correction: Your hip is a landing stage inside(!)
Florian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:22:09 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: pre-Beat, post-Beat, and Beat
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hi,
I put out DHARMA beat, A Jack Kerouac newsletter, and am looking for somebody
to do an article on Post beat writers, who carry on the beat
tradition....whatever that may mean. Are you interested in writing something?
The article is pertinent now that the main triad has passed on. Let me know.
peace, Attila
In a message dated 97-05-23 08:36:05 EDT, you write:
<< Another idea -- has this been discussed yet? -- is the post-Beats. Yeah we
can debate about whether or not the Beat Generation ended when Kerouac
appeared on the Tonight Show or death of Ginsberg or whatever, but out of
all the literary movements since (and what are the big ones?), who out there
have been clearly influenced by the Beats?
For one, there seems to be a new cyber-psychedelic movement of writers
emerging in this decade, with Howard Rheingold, Terence McKenna and Douglas
Rushkoff being the first to come to mind, and they seem to be directly next
in line with Tim Leary & Albert Hoffman, decending down from the Whole Earth
60s, also heavily borrowing from Alan Watts philosophies with a hefty dose
of (non-Beat) tech reporting a la Steven Levy's _Hackers_ thrown in for good
measure.
What else post-Beat is going on, someone care to tell me. I always thought
Bret Easton Ellis took the structure of _Visions of Cody_ to heart when he
wrote _The Rules of Attraction_ (one of his finest works). I wonder what
he'd say about that. >>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:22:36 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain
>At 07:57 AM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:
>> hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid
>>hitch-hikers out there anymore?....
>> sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
>> please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"
>>system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
>>summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
>>real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for
you
>>"on the road"
>>-julian
>>
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>>
>Julian, aren't you the 18 year old kid who has experience
>beyond your years. You're about to start a flame war with
>your provocative remarks. I'm looking forward to it, it could
>be a doozy.
>
>Mike Rice
>
How is what Julian said going to provoke a flame war???
-greg
______________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:22:15 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Kerouac's Birthday
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hello:
Two things,
Kerouac's Birthday is coming up in March so you should start planning some
event in your area, like a Kerouac reading, movie, lecture, appreciation, get
together.
second, if you have a Kerouac event, or know about one, please let me know so
I could include it in the calender I have on the web at
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/calender.html
">http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/calender.html</A>
and also include it in DHARMA beat's next issue, due out in March.
Always looking for people to write articles about Kerouac, his life, and his
writings.
thanks, and enjoy,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:32:49 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
Content-Type: text/plain
>>Anyway, "Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the
>>Alaskan wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die
>>is from a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress
>>brought on by suburbia and corporate work.
>>He may have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw
>>up simply by dying in the wilderness.
>>
>>-Greg
>
>Interesting comments Greg.
>
>I just read Krackaurer's book. However, as one who has spent a little
time
>in the wilderness I must say that anyone who walks into an Alaskan
>"wildernerss" with a few books, a 22 rifle and 25 pounds of rice is
asking
>for trouble. That Alex was an intelligent young man made his decision
even
>sadder.
>
>I take exception to your last comment "... you CAN NOT screw up simply
by
>dying in the wilderness." The only time you haven't screwed up if you
die
>in the wilderness, is if you die of old age. Any death that could be
>avoided by living intelligently is a stupid way to die.
Differing points of view. I agree that it would be better to die in the
wilderness of old age than of poison berries but a friend of mine (who
has also read the book) agreed that we think his way of dying was
admirable if nothing else. Alex died because of his own mistakes, his
own lack of ability. That is the best way to die. To be completely in
control of whether you live or die is life, anything else... just isn't.
Maybe I miswrote in my earlier post.. it was not a stupid way, it was a
mistake-filled, inexperience caused way but not stupid. It was
definitely an admirable way to live an and admirable way to die. I am
not planning on going out and living in the wild until I eventually
screw up and die so that I can die knowing that I brought it upon
myself. But I will admire Supertramp for being in control of every
aspect of his life and death.
I hope I have made myself clear, I dont' really feel that I have.
-Greg
ps. In response to the question about who Alexander Supertramp was I
dn't feel I really can say.
A few brief facts: he (I think)graduated from college a wealthy young
man. He had $25000 in his checking account which he donated to charity.
His parents called his phone number at school after not hearing anything
out of him for a few weeks and discovered he hadn't been there for quite
a while.
They heard nothing of him for two years until his body was found by an
abandoned trailer in the middle of the Alaskan bush.
The author essentially tracked down where Supertramp (the name he took
after leaving school) had been those two years and discovered he had
affected a lot of people in a lot of ways.
That's all I really want to get into, a remarkable true story.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:25:41 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: julian
Content-Type: text/plain
to the person who spoke to me about exactly caused me to end up "beyond
my years"
i have lived basically homeless for 4 years, and am only 18, i have
lived with two teachers, a lover, three wiccan friends, in a half-way
house, and anywhere else you can imagine, of done abit of one-man
hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to learn about yourself and
think...
until recently, i never had many friens, and i liked it that way, i
just read a few books a week, staying up to see the sun-rise, and then
go to school....
also, i am bisexual, and open about it...
that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i
have been geaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened
numerous times..
i may be generalizing when i say that my town has a strong lack of
intelligence, but that is generally all i have seen...
the wise and strong friends i have made here, have gottenout...all but
me...i have to suffer one more year here, i even dropped out of
highschool for three weeks, something i had always said i would never
do.
i have "lived" more than many people my age...
but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have
someone recieved reputation as the
"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-take-me-home-to-mommy-guy"
and have nearly built a following of a sort, i practically give
lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen, wondering my
feelings on certain subjects...it can get nerve racking, but i'm a
little giddy at all the attention i suppose...
anyway...
i have lived a "hard-knock-life"...i am well aware that a lot of people
have had it worse, but one of the reasons i joined this list is to learn
more about this interesting and wonderful culture, i suppose i could not
call myself a "beat"....but who could at first?...
i hope i answered the questions that were posed to me...
-julian
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:34:41 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: your mail
Content-Type: text/plain
nancy, if that's the way you feel, ok, i can understand that...
but...in this life, you only live for a limited amount of years, and
this may be something you want to try when you are young...if you dream
of it...
with women, it isn't all that safe by yourself, if i were a woman i
probably wouldn't do it alone...
but as i said, i want to go with the "buddy" system...
anyway, its up to you....
but nothing is going to happen to anyone i travel with i simply
wouldn't let it happen, i carry pepperspray at all times with me now,
and i would suggest no less for you...
-julian
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:37:21 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
Content-Type: text/plain
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan 6 08:23:22 1998
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>From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
>Subject: alexander supertramp
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>In a message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:
>
><< who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>
>
>if your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously
doubt yours
>is, what awaits is death.
>
>have you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?
>
>
>brian
>
no brian, i have never heard of alexander suprtramp...
this isn't a lecture on "hitchhiking in today's society" is it?...
if not...
who is he?...
______________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:53:54 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: hitch-hiking
Content-Type: text/plain
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan 6 10:05:11 1998
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>Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:53:53 -0500
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>From: Susan L Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
>Subject: hitch-hiking
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>I realize that this isn't _exactly_ the same as hitch-hiking, but given
the
>state of the country today, it may be an acceptable alternative...
>
>During the summer of 96', a friend of mine bought an unlimited pass
from
>Greyhound (I don't remember how much it cost) and spent the summer
seeing the
>country. He still had a great adventure and met lots of interesting
people, but
>he just didn't actually hitch rides from people. The way I understand
the pass
>is that you can go anywhere you want, anytime, until the pass expires.
>
>I would love to do it someday, but I agree with whoever said that its
probably
>more dangerous for a young woman out there.
>
>This is my first post to the list...next time I'll try for something a
little
>more on topic!
>
>Susan
>
>P.S. Julian-As far as cities in Michigan go, Port Huron isn't so bad!
I've
>lived in Michigan pretty much my whole life, and have seen far worse.
If you
>go to college, you'll find more of the kind of people that you seek.
Perhaps
>even some of the people that you know right now will become enlightened
as they
>mature also.
>
actually, i said port huron as a land mark, i live in jeddo, which has a
population of about 250, and the biggest news in years was when one guy
was a distant relative timothy mcviegh
that bus thing sounds like fun, but you don't get to know PEOPLE tht
way...i spent some quality time with some really wonderful people...
playing my guitar with them, or for them....
i'll look into the bus thing though...it seems interesting...
______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:56:16 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
Content-Type: text/plain
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan 6 10:03:11 1998
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>Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:48:52 PST
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>From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Subject: alexander supertramp
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Jon Krackaurer (correct spelling?) wrote a book called "Into the Wild"
>about Alexander Supertramp. It is an excellent book, well researched
>with extensive interviews of the many people supertramp touched during
>the two years between "dissappearing" and "reappearing" dead in the
>Alaskan wilderness.
>Krackaurer is an expert mountain climber and outdoorsman, a writer for
>Outside magazine. You might know of his most recent expeditition, he
was
>one of the few who survived the summit trip of Mt. Everest in which a
>blizzard killed several people. He wrote a book about it of course,
>which I have not read.
>
>Anyway, "Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the
>Alaskan wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die
>is from a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress
>brought on by suburbia and corporate work.
>He may have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw
>up simply by dying in the wilderness.
>
>-Greg
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
amen.
-julian
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:03:11 PST
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>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan 6 15:03:47 1998
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>From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>In-Reply-To: <199801061557.HAA03897@f82.hotmail.com>
>
>At 07:57 AM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:
>> hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid
>>hitch-hikers out there anymore?....
>> sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
>> please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"
>>system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
>>summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
>>real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for
you
>>"on the road"
>>-julian
>>
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>>
>Julian, aren't you the 18 year old kid who has experience
>beyond your years. You're about to start a flame war with
>your provocative remarks. I'm looking forward to it, it could
>be a doozy.
>
>Mike Rice
>
thank you mike for pointing that out to me, i hadn't realized that it
could be taken that way....
anouncement:
I AM NOT SOME SEX FIEND OR SOMETHING...I AM JUST LOOKING TO MEET PEOPLE,
HONESTLY, I AM JUST A "STARRY-EYED" KID OUT TO SEE THE WORLD....
*g*
i hope that cleared everything up...
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:52:43 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: hitch-hiking....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:
>
> I would love to hitchhike and I planned to start doing so last summer...
> but ended up, well as things always end up, never started and never
> finished.
> I always wondered if there's still a lot of people out there picking up
> hitchers, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of people in our nation who
> would be willing to risk life and limb to get someone a ride.
> Anyhow, feel free to stop by Stillwater Minnesota (near st
> paul/minneapolis) if your hitching next summer.
>
> -greg
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
i often have provided transport in exchange for conversation to folks
along the sides of the various routes zig-zagging here and there around
this lovely nation. i must admit that since the last thread in this
vein i have, for some odd reason, had that moment of second-thought
concerning safety that on an accelerating ramp on or off an Ike-route is
long enough to pass by the lonesome traveler and i am then left the
lonesome driver with no one but my active imagination with which to
convese.
david rhaesa
at the Beat Hotel in Lawrence
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:58:32 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: hakim bey
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Kindlesan wrote:
>
> has anyone ever read any poetry by a person named hakim bey?
>
> brian
no i haven't.
<yawn> sorry i just woke up from a siesta
david rhaesa
at the Beat-Hotel
p.s. sorry for the chatter-banter ... my Ludwig W. books are on the
shelf in Salina and so I'm not up to following that thread yet.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:21:53 EST
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From: SPElias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: hakim bey
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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yea, of coarse we have, can't remember there naymes, butt they we'reel
witty.....
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:37:46 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: This Land is your land
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some interest on the list connects the beat thang with the legacy of
woody guthrie and i've received backchannels concerning such threads
before. i thought i'd report that while perusing the KMART children's
video for presents for nieces and nephews i saw a copy of an animation
titled This Land is Your Land introducing youngsters to the music of
Woody G. I was happy to see that they included "So Long It's Been Good
to Know Ya" in the collection. Didn't get it. Maybe next trip to a
KMART (which might be awhile).
Right now sitting in Patricia's basement. Little Richard is FLAMING as
only LR can do through a version of Rock Island Line and having walked
that line before i can say this is the best version known to human
beings. Patricia is cataloguing material on Lena's computer and I'm
typing this note and Arlo is singing East Texas Red the meanest bull in
town.
Who can say more about Woody and Leadbelly that ain't already been
written or said by them or someone else here or in Tonganoxie. The
Vision Shared tribute we're listening to was something or other to make
money to buy the Moe Asch archives for the Smithsonian or someplace. A
good cause.
I remember my visit to New York City when i went looking around the
skyscraped sky looking for Folkways Headquarters - i was obsessed to
death with this old cat named Phil Ochs who hung himself on a bad day
for me at least and i found the address and there weren't nothin' there
but a box with numbers and buttons by the door. I found one said
Folkways and pushed the button...A woman's voice answers and says what
do i want and i says i've come all the way from Kansas in search of Phil
Ochs and she says they're normally mail order only but for a real Kansan
she can make an exception and buzzes me in and up the Elevator. So I
buy everything with any Ochs on it including the Interviews and the
collections with Blind Boy Grunt and am about to head out the door --
and there on the desk in front of this Caribbean Queen posing as a
secretary is an issue of Sis Cunningham's little newsletter Broadside
and on the cover is Phil Ochs. And i say well would you look at that -
there's Phil on the desk. And she says I can have it. I said really
and she said yes. I pick it up and on the other side is the mailing
sticker for Moe.
Moe passed away as people do we're all just passing through this mist.
Now EmmyLou is singing the Hobo's Lullaby. And i'll let the words close
go to sleep
you weary hobo
let the towns drift slowly by
can't you hear the steel rails humming
that's
a hobo's lullaby.....
bye bye
david rhaesa
at the Beat-Hotel
i'll resubscribe in Salina soon
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:40:48 EST
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From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
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i'm from michigan i live by grand rapids
chad
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:15:05 -0500
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From: Susan L Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: One last comment...
Content-Type: text/plain
I apologize for posting this to the list, but I don't have Julian's e-mail
address to do it privately...
1) My friend who bought the bus pass actually met lots of people. He would
spend time in various towns and cities that appealed to him. (and may even
have hitched short distances occasionally, I don't remember) And, he actually
met people on the bus. I guess who you meet all depends on what you make of
it.
2) Send me your e-mail address if you want, I have a lot of things I'd like to
talk with you about.
That's it...I'll try to keep personal stuff off the list now!
Susan
deansusa@pilot.msu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:23:16 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: One last comment...
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Susan L Dean wrote:
>
> I apologize for posting this to the list, but I don't have Julian's e-mail
> address to do it privately...
>
> 1) My friend who bought the bus pass actually met lots of people. He would
> spend time in various towns and cities that appealed to him. (and may even
> have hitched short distances occasionally, I don't remember) And, he actually
> met people on the bus. I guess who you meet all depends on what you make of
> it.
>
> 2) Send me your e-mail address if you want, I have a lot of things I'd like
to
> talk with you about.
>
> That's it...I'll try to keep personal stuff off the list now!
>
> Susan
> deansusa@pilot.msu.edu
i had a friend who did the bus pass deal sometime before or after
walking the Appalachian Trail (where he's known as EZ rider) his name is
Robert Thomas and he went to Emory University in Atlanta and as i recall
he probably never graduated. but last i saw him in Winston-Salem North
Carolina he was still enjoying life ... i hear that the train passes
aren't a bad summer buy either.
david rhaesa
at the Beat Hotel
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:28:45 PST
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>Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:40:48 EST
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>From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>i'm from michigan i live by grand rapids
>
>
> chad
>
well, tell me about yourself...
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:29:23 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
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In a message dated 98-01-06 21:07:51 EST, you write:
<< no brian, i have never heard of alexander suprtramp...
this isn't a lecture on "hitchhiking in today's society" is it?...
~~~nope........subtle sarcasm.....meaning don't let idealism lead you to
disaster, but judging by your last emails, i would presume you might have had
a good share, perhaps of that, by now
if not...
who is he?...
~~~i presume you have been reading all the posts on him by now.........
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:34:47 EST
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Subject: Re: German
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oh most gracious benevolent florian, thank you.
thank you. thank you.
now to see if this helps me with the book.
brian
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:35:10 EST
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From: CodyPomera <CodyPomera@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD
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For a catalog, thanks!:
George Russell
PO Box 10667
Bainbridge Island, WA 98110
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:50:09 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: hakim bey (Ludwig. W)
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At 08:58 PM 1/6/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>p.s. sorry for the chatter-banter ... my Ludwig W.
>books are on the shelf in Salina and so I'm not up
>to following that thread yet.
Looking forward to the follow up David!! In the midst
of Augustine, Aquinas, and Luther for a Christian
Ethics course at the moment and I could use the outside
entertainment. . . Time permitting of course!! {;^>
Mike
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:54:41 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: This Land is your land
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At 09:37 PM 1/6/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>So I buy everything with any Ochs on it including
>the Interviews and the collections with Blind Boy Grunt
>and am about to head out the door --
Speaking of Blind Boy Grunt, he was just nominated
for a couple Grammy's (Album of the Year, Folk Album of
the Year, and Best Rock Vocal - Male). At least
I believe this is what I heard. . .
Mike
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:12:23 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: long list, warning
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I am trying to sort out my basement stuff. and need motivation. so i am
posting my very very rough draft list of some of the stuff. sorry if it
is too long.
want idea and feed back on how to make this list
patricia
Stuff in the beat hotel basement.
Partial list
Books
The Wild Boys: A Book of the Dead, by William S. Burroughs, signed (to
Pat - 82) 2nd printing, Hardback with Dust jacket, copyright 1969.
(cover slight tear)
Cities of the Red Night, by William S. Burroughs, signed (to Pat - 83)
First Edition excellent condition with dust jacket hard back
The Place of Dead Roads, by William S. Burroughs, signed (to Pat - 84)
First Edition, excellent condition with dust jacket. Hard back
Queer viking, 1985 ,signed to pat, dust jacket, hard back
The Job , Interviews with William S. Burroughs by Daniel Odier.Penquin,
paperback.,signed by wsb, 96
excellant condition
my education (a book of dreams) hardback, dust jacket, penquin, signed
by wsb to pat. 91
The Cat Inside, hardback, no dust , viking, signed to pat, first
edition,
The third Mind, william s. burroughs and brion gysin, signed to pat,
viking,hardback, dust cover, excellent condition.
First edition.
Letters to allen ginsberg, full court press, paper back, excellent
condition. Signed
Early Routines , small paperback, signed to pat. Excellent condition,
Cadmus editions 1982
Ruski, small paperback (signed, wsb 1984 (no 29 of 500 copies)
three, - retreat diaries, two signed by wsb, allen, james, and david
ohle,
one signed by wsb, james and david,. City moon 1976 (2,000 copies.
naked lunch, paperback, torn, dirty, unsigned
The Nova Broadcast #5: The Dead Star, by William S. Burroughs, signed
(to Pat -85) printed 1969 - Nova Broadcast Press: San Francisco.
Nova Convention progam, new york, nov, december. 1978
Everything is permitted, the making of naked lunch, paperback,
Gallery notices
Tony Shafrazi gallery December 19 through January 24 1988 - poster with
three ply wood pictures and one of William at what I think is his front
porch clean folded into 4.
Gasllery, book, galerie carzaniga & ueker basel
Postcard of Kellas gallery opening, sept nov 1989 (red painting)
Gallery Casasinnombre William S. Burroughs August 13 - September 24,
1988. Invitation to opening reception - postcard of "The Meal Sickness"
1987.
Christmas card -1988 picture of Untitled Window 6, signed (to Patricia)
Gallery reception card, picture, Klien gallery 1988
Gallery book, cover, the metal sickness, signed to pat, casasinnombre
gallery 1988
Christmas card , picture gluttony , 1992 signed by william and james
Christmas card, elf, signed by william 92,
pistol target, from 2/17/85, signed by wsb
bardo card, directions to williams bardo
Narcotics: Nature's Dangerous Gifts, Revised edition of Norman Taylor's
Flight from Reality. Gift to Pat from William.
Flowers in the Blood: The Story of Opium, by Dean Latimer and Jeff
Goldberg - Introduction by William S. Burroughs. Signed by William.
Copyright 1981 Franklin Watts. Cover slightly worn
River City Reunion
river city reunionplain poster signed by , william s burroughs, edie
keroauac, diana di prima, micheal mclure, jay carrol, Jeff miller, gene
bernofsky, roger martin, sharon dsteven l, tim miller, john giorno, ed
dorn, ed ruhe, barbara hawkins, ,john moritz, peggy billings, mark
kaplan, allen ginsberg, shelly miller, danny bently, barry
shalinsky, clark coan, rosemary leon kimball, b roberts, ken lasman,
barry billings. Wayne propst, steve bunch, david ohle, david hann,
william f. hatke, susan brasseau, steven lowe, george wedge, etc
River City Reunion, Union Burning T-Shirt, Designed by BDR, XL, White
and Clean
river city reunion sclay wilson tee shirt, allen and william trucking
river city reunion flyers
1, blue poster for Husker du, liberty hall, river city reunion, sept.13
,87
1 pink marianne Faithfull poster, with fernando Saunders. Michael
McClure, Danny Sugerman, Thursday Sept. 10th.
1 robert Creelyey, James McCrary, David Ohle, Wayne Propst, leaonard
Macruder, at the bottleneck, tues. sept 8.
1 flyer, yellow, timothy leary, Liberty hall sept, 12
1 flyer, ed sanders, jum carroll, ed dorn. Friday sept 11 liberty hall.
One large poster of "Howard Dewey, mule driver from lecompton, by and
signed, wayne s. propst. Jr.
(16 pages of proof of cat inside)
(one large weatherman poster, "new Morning - changing weather
2- color river city reunion posters, one signed by wsb
Two large color art posters of wsb "western lands"
Two large color art poster of anne walden poem, "Romance,
One large color art poster of philip whalen "window"
10 pamplets, by Frankie "Edie" Kerouac-Parker, "Essays & Poems
Celebrating The 1987 River city Reunion
three signed on front, six ` unsigned. One signed inside,
white plain, excellant condition
ljw clipping, burroughs mug hawking sneakers 7/9/94
ljw, clipping review of lee and the boys in the backroom by paul lim
large framed poster from birthday party in newyork, 70 years, signed by
artiist and william, a shadowy silluette, very good.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:44:36 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
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Julian Ruck wrote:
>
> hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid
> hitch-hikers out there anymore?....
> sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
> please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"
> system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
> summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
> real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you
> "on the road"
> -julian
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
i live far away...but if you're willing to wait...
there is a chance that i will be coming to the US in fall...hitchhiking
has never been my strong side, though i tried. somehow it seems to me
that people have changed and that the times are not as good as they used
to be. what are your experiences?
ksenijs
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:25:54 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: julian
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In a message dated 98-01-06 20:36:01 EST, you write:
i have lived basically homeless for 4 years,
~~~personal choice or unavoidable situation?
done a bit of one-man hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to learn
about yourself and think...
~~~yeah, so does being an introvert in high school with a predeliction(sp?)
for not enjoying the company of too many people
i just read a few books a week
~~~who be your favorite authors?
also, i am bisexual, and open about it...
~~~you put up with a lot of shit concerning prejudice?
that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i have
been beaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened numerous
times..
~~~personal choice or unavoidable
i even dropped out of highschool for three weeks, something i had always said
i would never do.
~~~why'd you do it?
i have "lived" more than many people my age...
~~~perhaps this may be true for america
but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have someone
recieved reputation as the "off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-
take-me-home-to-mommy-guy" and have nearly built a following of a sort, i
practically give lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen,
wondering my feelings on certain subjects...
~~~what makes this a happy ending for you?
i suppose i could not call myself a "beat"....but who could at first?...
~~~of course, this depends on who you are talking to......i've heard some say
that even within the beat movement, the word "beat" itself was detested by
some.....perhaps.......but i am limited in my knowledge, not having read much
and been there myself
brian
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:29:52 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: hiking
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Ksenija Simic wrote:
>
> there is a chance that i will be coming to the US in fall...hitchhiking
> has never been my strong side, though i tried. somehow it seems to me
> that people have changed and that the times are not as good as they used
> to be. what are your experiences?
>
> ksenijs
how nice, i would be interested in your itinery ideas. If you came
through kansas, i would love to meet you. I hitched hiked a lot for
years, in us, mexico, and canada, i wos warned most about mexico but
had the evilest time in kansas city. and outside omaha. I loved hitch
hiking and loved the geography the best. I also rode a lot of buses and
found it more people oriented somehow than hitching. but hitching let
me bond with geography more.
so where do you think you want to go?
patricia
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:47:48 -0500
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From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: julian
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Julian,
I apologize, you have lived beyond your years. I live in a
city of 8,000, in Wisconsin, not far from Sinclair Lewis'
Main Street, in Minnesota. The small town bitterness that
passes for public opinion here, is often impossible to bear.
I've risen above it by understanding, and learning to predict
in which direction local opinion will move. As the owner-
manager of the local cable Television system, I've had to dodge
a lot of bullets in my time. So I've grown philosophical about
it. One good thing (that is also a bad thing) about the bitterness,
is that it is PERSONAL. Part of the big city problem is that it
is IMPERSONAL. It hurts worse when it is personal, but its more
real, as are the people you deal with.
One last question, what's the name of your city and how big is
it?
Mike Rice
At 05:25 PM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:
> to the person who spoke to me about exactly caused me to end up "beyond
>my years"
> i have lived basically homeless for 4 years, and am only 18, i have
>lived with two teachers, a lover, three wiccan friends, in a half-way
>house, and anywhere else you can imagine, of done abit of one-man
>hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to learn about yourself and
>think...
> until recently, i never had many friens, and i liked it that way, i
>just read a few books a week, staying up to see the sun-rise, and then
>go to school....
> also, i am bisexual, and open about it...
> that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i
>have been geaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened
>numerous times..
> i may be generalizing when i say that my town has a strong lack of
>intelligence, but that is generally all i have seen...
> the wise and strong friends i have made here, have gottenout...all but
>me...i have to suffer one more year here, i even dropped out of
>highschool for three weeks, something i had always said i would never
>do.
> i have "lived" more than many people my age...
> but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have
>someone recieved reputation as the
>"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-take-me-home-to-mommy-guy"
> and have nearly built a following of a sort, i practically give
>lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen, wondering my
>feelings on certain subjects...it can get nerve racking, but i'm a
>little giddy at all the attention i suppose...
> anyway...
>i have lived a "hard-knock-life"...i am well aware that a lot of people
>have had it worse, but one of the reasons i joined this list is to learn
>more about this interesting and wonderful culture, i suppose i could not
>call myself a "beat"....but who could at first?...
> i hope i answered the questions that were posed to me...
> -julian
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:58:38 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Christopher Johnson McCandless, aka alexander supertramp
In-Reply-To: <19980106233250.17913.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Christopher Johnson McCandless (aka Alexander Supertramp). From
Washington, DC. Son of a NASA scientist, graduated from Emory University
May of 1990 where he had distinguished himself as a history and
anthropology major carrying a 3.72 GPA. He declined membership on Phi Beta
Kappa. His college education had been paid for with a $40,000 bequest that
had been left him by a friend of the family. He had $24,000 left when he
finished college. He donated it to OXFAM. The day after graduation,
Mother's Day. He told his family he was going to disappear for a while and
they never saw him again.
His jouney into the "wilderness" began in Atlanta and ended 25 East of
Healy, Alaska in an abandoned bus on what is called the Stampede Trail.
"Into the Wild" weaves a haunting story of his last two years. The mistakes
McCandless made caused his death. They were mistakes that are painful to
read about. Excellent book.
INTO THE WILD by Jon Krakaur, Villard, NY 1996 ISBN 0-679-42850-X. Book
beautifuly designed by Deborah Kerner.
j grant
>-Greg
>
>ps. In response to the question about who Alexander Supertramp was I
>dn't feel I really can say.
>A few brief facts: he (I think)graduated from college a wealthy young
>man. He had $25000 in his checking account which he donated to charity.
>His parents called his phone number at school after not hearing anything
>out of him for a few weeks and discovered he hadn't been there for quite
>a while.
>They heard nothing of him for two years until his body was found by an
>abandoned trailer in the middle of the Alaskan bush.
>The author essentially tracked down where Supertramp (the name he took
>after leaving school) had been those two years and discovered he had
>affected a lot of people in a lot of ways.
>That's all I really want to get into, a remarkable true story.
>
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:39:39 -0500
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From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: julian
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i've heard some say
>that even within the beat movement, the word "beat" itself was detested by
>some.....perhaps.......but i am limited in my knowledge, not having read much
>and been there myself
>
>brian
In the history channel's interview (David Halberstam's The Fifties) and in
a long extract on this list, I read
an explanation of why the truly Beat, detested the Press' interpretation of
the term "Beat." Ginsberg said the word Beat meant you were part of the
real beat, i.e., rhythm, of authentic America. The Press suggested Beat
meant beat up,
disgruntled, raffish, offbeat, bohemian, even sinister. Since those guys
hanging around Columbia University in the 40s were totally in charge of what
Beat really means, they had to take umbrage at the Press interpretation. Then
Chronicle columnist Herb Caen comes along in 1957 when both Howl and On The
Road are exploding, and lifts the "nik" off the then brand-new Russian
Sputnik, appends the suffix to Beat, and presto, we have a new creation:
"The Beatnik." Some of the
bad films, pulp paperbacks, and Television impressions of the Beatniks, seem
laughable today, but those impressions created the backlash that knocked the
Beat movement on its can, by 1960. By the early 60s, the only mainstream
memory
of the Beat movement, was represented by Maynard Krebs, the goateed fool who
played foil to Dobie Gillis on The Loves of Dobie Gillis TV show.
The Press and establishment wanted desperately to snuff the voice
of the Beats. They succeeded, at first, but that authentic beat and rhythm
surfaced again in the mid-60s, and sparked a cultural revolution that is
still with us. That is why Allan Ginberg's obituary started on page
1 of the New York Times, and why George Will's, will not start there.
Mike Rice
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:48:38 EST
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From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: julian
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you asked who i was, i'm from michigan also, and after reading yr post about
you, it sounds like we'd have alot in common. so i tried to write you a
private email but my mail was sent back saying i couldn't write to you, umm
how can i?, i think the story of me isn't as interesting as kerouac to some
people on this list, god knows why :) so i decided not to post it. sorry
have a nice night and a happy halloween
chad
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:48:17 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
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> >
> >Mike Rice
> >
> thank you mike for pointing that out to me, i hadn't realized that it
> could be taken that way....
> anouncement:
> I AM NOT SOME SEX FIEND OR SOMETHING...I AM JUST LOOKING TO MEET PEOPLE,
> HONESTLY, I AM JUST A "STARRY-EYED" KID OUT TO SEE THE WORLD....
>
> *g*
>
> i hope that cleared everything up...
>
isn't is sad how people these days always see the negative first in
things others say or do; how we don't trust each other anymore?
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:44:07 -0800
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> i hope i answered the questions that were posed to me...
> -julian
>
> ______________________________________________________
i admire you. that's all i want to say. and why not call yourself beat?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:00:35 MST
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From: James Lavin <jimlavin@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Alexander Supertramp
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I have belonged to the list for a while, but never have added anything,
as I lack the Beat knowledge base. I wanted to point out something
that people may have missed in their observations of Chris McCandless.
He died of starvation, due mainly to eating the seed pods of a plant
that was listed as edible in his guide book. This inhibited the
production of an enzyme necessary for the break down and utilization of
food. It wasn't so much that Chris didn't know the woods, he was in
such a depleted state that he simply died with several days. Other such
claims have ben made in attempts to prove his lack of knowledge. He
describes killing a moose in his journal. The hunters who accompanied
Jon Krakauer to the site pointed out the fact that he must have been a
fool to mistake a caribou for a moose. In fact the veteran Alaskan
hunters had mistaken the remains for a caribou, closer examination
proved the bones to be from a moose. It is my opinion that Chris
McCandless set out with the purest of intentions, making strong effort
to live by his beliefs. He was an accomplished outdoors person who
happened to overestimate his own abilities. That wasn't what was
ultimately responsible for his death. Instead a string of bad luck
cause his demise.
Peace, Jimi
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:00:46 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: hiking
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
> how nice, i would be interested in your itinery ideas. If you came
> through kansas, i would love to meet you. I hitched hiked a lot for
> years, in us, mexico, and canada, i wos warned most about mexico but
> had the evilest time in kansas city. and outside omaha. I loved hitch
> hiking and loved the geography the best. I also rode a lot of buses and
> found it more people oriented somehow than hitching. but hitching let
> me bond with geography more.
> so where do you think you want to go?
> patricia
i have learnt that there is beauty everywhere you go; as long as you
travel; as long as you are not in one place.
of course, as every typical tourist, i want to see the grand canyon, as
i have managed to miss it in all my visits to the US. i want to go
through arizona, new mexico, the desert...everywhere...
and i would love to visit you along the way. after all, much of the
traveling is about people you meet.
what was it about kansas city?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 04:46:24 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: on the road again
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waking up with sinus headache
just a bit
kinda fuzzy feeling in my brain
gotta pack my things
in a flash and hit the highway
heading west past Topeka and
Fort Riley
to the jewell of the Plains
Salina
...
listening to Ken Kesey singing
Belle Starr and Jesse James
on the ride.
life i love is making it with my muse
i cain't wait ta get out there
on the horse again....
david rhaesa
leaving the Beat-Hotel
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:48:55 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: on the road again
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> waking up with sinus headache
> just a bit
> kinda fuzzy feeling in my brain
> gotta pack my things
> in a flash and hit the highway
> heading west past Topeka and
> Fort Riley
> to the jewell of the Plains
> Salina
> ...
> listening to Ken Kesey singing
> Belle Starr and Jesse James
> on the ride.
> life i love is making it with my muse
> i cain't wait ta get out there
> on the horse again....
>
> david rhaesa
> leaving the Beat-Hotel
hit the road jack
and don't come back
no more no more no more no more
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:27:33 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: When trees are outlawed...
Was Sony Bono beat?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:40:36 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Johan Gotthardt Olsen <johan@DARWIN.KI.KU.DK>
Subject: photo wanted
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I know of a photograph of Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady standing
together, Cassady to the left, head kinked in a funny way, Kerouac to
the right, serene (ironic, impatient?). I saw it used as a 'On The
Road' cover, can't remember the publishing co. but... I'd like to have
the picture so if somebody out there can help, I'd very much
appreciate it. I think the picture was taken by Cassady's wife?
It's cold, grey, windy, wet, hopeless here in Denmark. Somebody do
something, I am losing it!
Johan
johan@xray.ki.ku.dk
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:15:57 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <19980107013441.17458.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hopefully, I'll be taking off for Prague in a couple of years and then,
I'll be able to hit the road in Europe for a little while, anyway.
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
> nancy, if that's the way you feel, ok, i can understand that...
> but...in this life, you only live for a limited amount of years, and
> this may be something you want to try when you are young...if you dream
> of it...
> with women, it isn't all that safe by yourself, if i were a woman i
> probably wouldn't do it alone...
> but as i said, i want to go with the "buddy" system...
> anyway, its up to you....
> but nothing is going to happen to anyone i travel with i simply
> wouldn't let it happen, i carry pepperspray at all times with me now,
> and i would suggest no less for you...
> -julian
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:19:57 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: julian
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.19980107004249.19df472e@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I beg to differ on one point, the big city is not always impersonal. NYC
is more personal to me than the suburb where I grew up, in upstate NY.
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, mike rice wrote:
> Julian,
>
> I apologize, you have lived beyond your years. I live in a
> city of 8,000, in Wisconsin, not far from Sinclair Lewis'
> Main Street, in Minnesota. The small town bitterness that
> passes for public opinion here, is often impossible to bear.
> I've risen above it by understanding, and learning to predict
> in which direction local opinion will move. As the owner-
> manager of the local cable Television system, I've had to dodge
> a lot of bullets in my time. So I've grown philosophical about
> it. One good thing (that is also a bad thing) about the bitterness,
> is that it is PERSONAL. Part of the big city problem is that it
> is IMPERSONAL. It hurts worse when it is personal, but its more
> real, as are the people you deal with.
>
> One last question, what's the name of your city and how big is
> it?
>
> Mike Rice
>
>
> At 05:25 PM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:
> > to the person who spoke to me about exactly caused me to end up "beyond
> >my years"
> > i have lived basically homeless for 4 years, and am only 18, i have
> >lived with two teachers, a lover, three wiccan friends, in a half-way
> >house, and anywhere else you can imagine, of done abit of one-man
> >hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to learn about yourself and
> >think...
> > until recently, i never had many friens, and i liked it that way, i
> >just read a few books a week, staying up to see the sun-rise, and then
> >go to school....
> > also, i am bisexual, and open about it...
> > that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i
> >have been geaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened
> >numerous times..
> > i may be generalizing when i say that my town has a strong lack of
> >intelligence, but that is generally all i have seen...
> > the wise and strong friends i have made here, have gottenout...all but
> >me...i have to suffer one more year here, i even dropped out of
> >highschool for three weeks, something i had always said i would never
> >do.
> > i have "lived" more than many people my age...
> > but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have
> >someone recieved reputation as the
> >"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-take-me-home-to-mommy-guy"
> > and have nearly built a following of a sort, i practically give
> >lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen, wondering my
> >feelings on certain subjects...it can get nerve racking, but i'm a
> >little giddy at all the attention i suppose...
> > anyway...
> >i have lived a "hard-knock-life"...i am well aware that a lot of people
> >have had it worse, but one of the reasons i joined this list is to learn
> >more about this interesting and wonderful culture, i suppose i could not
> >call myself a "beat"....but who could at first?...
> > i hope i answered the questions that were posed to me...
> > -julian
> >
> >______________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:38:29 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: julian
Content-Type: text/plain
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan 6 22:27:18 1998
>Received: from listserv (128.228.100.10) by listserv.cuny.edu (LSMTP
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>Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:25:54 EST
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>From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
>Subject: Re: julian
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>In a message dated 98-01-06 20:36:01 EST, you write:
>
>i have lived basically homeless for 4 years,
>~~~personal choice or unavoidable situation?
>(unavoidable, when you cease to entertain people, they cease to want
you around)
>done a bit of one-man hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to
learn
>about yourself and think...
>~~~yeah, so does being an introvert in high school with a
predeliction(sp?)
>for not enjoying the company of too many people
>(i was that for years too)
>i just read a few books a week
>~~~who be your favorite authors?
>(Vonnegut, Rand, Chaucer, Plato(all the Greeks really), Adams, Eddings,
and Salinger)
>also, i am bisexual, and open about it...
>~~~you put up with a lot of shit concerning prejudice?
>(yes, a lot)
>that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i
have
>been beaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened
numerous
>times..
>~~~personal choice or unavoidable
>(unavoidable, this town has so very many prejudices)
>i even dropped out of highschool for three weeks, something i had
always said
>i would never do.
>~~~why'd you do it?
>(i had no place to live at all, and needed a 40 hour a week job, and
then i couldn't juggle school and living on my own....so i had to let
school go, its not something i'm proud of)
> i have "lived" more than many people my age...
>~~~perhaps this may be true for america
>
>but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have
someone
>recieved reputation as the
"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-
>take-me-home-to-mommy-guy" and have nearly built a following of a sort,
i
>practically give lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to
listen,
>wondering my feelings on certain subjects...
>~~~what makes this a happy ending for you?
>(respect. that simple, i have only been assualted once since coming
back, and now he has absolutely no friends because of it, for being
bullied for years, it feels good to be "safe")
>i suppose i could not call myself a "beat"....but who could at
first?...
>~~~of course, this depends on who you are talking to......i've heard
some say
>that even within the beat movement, the word "beat" itself was detested
by
>some.....perhaps.......but i am limited in my knowledge, not having
read much
>and been there myself
>
>brian
>
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:41:46 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: julian
Content-Type: text/plain
actually, a place called Jeddo, a country off-shoot of port huron...
michigan, with a population in jeddo of about 250
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan 6 22:47:40 1998
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>Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:47:48 -0500
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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>From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
>Subject: Re: julian
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>In-Reply-To: <19980107012541.16234.qmail@hotmail.com>
>
>Julian,
>
>I apologize, you have lived beyond your years. I live in a
>city of 8,000, in Wisconsin, not far from Sinclair Lewis'
>Main Street, in Minnesota. The small town bitterness that
>passes for public opinion here, is often impossible to bear.
>I've risen above it by understanding, and learning to predict
>in which direction local opinion will move. As the owner-
>manager of the local cable Television system, I've had to dodge
>a lot of bullets in my time. So I've grown philosophical about
>it. One good thing (that is also a bad thing) about the bitterness,
>is that it is PERSONAL. Part of the big city problem is that it
>is IMPERSONAL. It hurts worse when it is personal, but its more
>real, as are the people you deal with.
>
>One last question, what's the name of your city and how big is
>it?
>
>Mike Rice
>
______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:46:11 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: julian
Content-Type: text/plain
because i'm new to it...
i don't really understand it as well, as someone who has been with it
awhile would....
and i wouldn't want to use it refering to myself if some people would
take offence at an "upstart hippy"
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:48:50 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: When trees are outlawed...
Content-Type: text/plain
at one time, i think he was...but he was a lot of things...a hippy, and
a republican...
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:57:57 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: letter par Truly Beat Canucks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980104221947.49525B-100000@uoft02.utoledo.e du>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Le siecle des intellectuels says:
> Cronopio, cronopio?
>
the DiGiTaL CiTiZen carnet on wired i
couldnt resist to Jaques Derrida... o
r emigrates or johnny halliday or Son
ny Bono or Salvatore (or Sal) the mis
tic name Salvatore Bono (italian emig
rant, at Ellis Islands, or Elvis Isla
nd?) NY or THE BEAT GOES ON 1967, dis
c or Palm Springs there's jack keroua
c or philp marlowe i couldnt resist t
o Jacques Derrida...and the beats go
on...il cammino di ogni speranza is t
he beat goes on sonny... ma piano (pe
r non svegliarti)... jacques derrida.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:38:10 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: When trees are outlawed...
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:27:33 EST from <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Well, he sang "The Beat goes on...on...on...on...on."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:47:02 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: This Land is your land
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:54:41 -0500 from <cake@IONLINE.NET>
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:54:41 -0500 M. Cakebread said:
>At 09:37 PM 1/6/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>
>>So I buy everything with any Ochs on it including
>>the Interviews and the collections with Blind Boy Grunt
>>and am about to head out the door --
>
>Speaking of Blind Boy Grunt, he was just nominated
>for a couple Grammy's (Album of the Year, Folk Album of
>the Year, and Best Rock Vocal - Male). At least
>I believe this is what I heard. . .
>
>Mike
Yes, and I'll be really suprised if Dylan doesn't win. It's a GREAT
album. The Phil Ochs box set is good too, though there's only about five unrec
orded songs in it. At $43, it's an expensive purchase for someone who has all
the albums. For someone new to Ochs, however, it's a great introduction. The
re's also a good biographical pamphlet.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:54:10 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs, Wittgenstein
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Has anyone out there read a work by Wittgenstein cover to cover?
-John H.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:26:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Dylan Conference at Stanford
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thought someone in the Bay area might be
interested in checking this out:
> stanford, california--
> 'scholars are planning a one-day conference at standford univeristy
>to talk about bob dylan's legacy in american culture. authors,
>professors and dylan experts will attent the event, which is billed as
>the first of its kind in the u.s. the legendary folk songwriter is
>scheduled to perform in new york with van morrison on that day and is
>not expected to attend. among the topics will be an analysis of
>political views in dylan's songs, allen ginsberg's artistic
>involvement with dylan, the musical roots of dylan's songs and a
>comparison to beat novelist jack kerouac and french poet arthur
>rimbaud.'
> --canoe.ca/JanMusic/jan7_dylan.html
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:33:11 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: mail go bouncy list
Comments: cc: nhenness@uwaterloo.ca
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I probably will sell some, but the thang is , i am trying to figure out
what stuff i have. I have contacted a library to donate 5 years
worth of underground papers i collected in the 70's. My preservation
technique is to randomly pile material in stacks on my
basement floor. I am cleaning, and sorting, and don't know how to
catalogue. When Charles Plymell was here, he gave me a good talking to
about the way i kept stuff. So I am sorting, listing. I also thought I
might try to get the more interesting posters and cards scanned for use
on my crude home page. I just get a little lost with my collections. I
also contacted a book dealer and will be selling a couple of hundred of
my lesser cook books. But i keep wanting to quit sorting and to go to
the computer to play freecell. I thought if i posted the partial list
someone would scold or imspire me to keep going until i at least got the
stuff off the floor.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:11:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: letter par Truly Beat Canucks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980107145757.006a1104@pop.gpnet.it>
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At 02:57 PM 1/7/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Le siecle des intellectuels says:
>> Cronopio, cronopio?
>>
>the DiGiTaL CiTiZen carnet on wired i
>couldnt resist to Jaques Derrida... o
>r emigrates or johnny halliday or Son
>ny Bono or Salvatore (or Sal) the mis
>tic name Salvatore Bono (italian emig
>rant, at Ellis Islands, or Elvis Isla
>nd?) NY or THE BEAT GOES ON 1967, dis
>c or Palm Springs there's jack keroua
>c or philp marlowe i couldnt resist t
>o Jacques Derrida...and the beats go
>on...il cammino di ogni speranza is t
>he beat goes on sonny... ma piano (pe
>r non svegliarti)... jacques derrida.
>
>
this is great, now if we could all communicate
this well, Sonny might have been elected President
by now instead of just mayor and congressman.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:32:30 -0500
Reply-To: "eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "D. Patrick Hornberger" <"eastwind@erols.com"@EROLS.COM>
Organization: EASTWIND PUBLISHING
Subject: Re: mail go bouncy list
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> I probably will sell some, but the thang is , i am trying to figure out
> what stuff i have. I have contacted a library to donate 5 years
> worth of underground papers i collected in the 70's. My preservation
> technique is to randomly pile material in stacks on my
> basement floor. I am cleaning, and sorting, and don't know how to
> catalogue. When Charles Plymell was here, he gave me a good talking to
> about the way i kept stuff. So I am sorting, listing. I also thought I
> might try to get the more interesting posters and cards scanned for use
> on my crude home page. I just get a little lost with my collections. I
> also contacted a book dealer and will be selling a couple of hundred of
> my lesser cook books. But i keep wanting to quit sorting and to go to
> the computer to play freecell. I thought if i posted the partial list
> someone would scold or imspire me to keep going until i at least got the
> stuff off the floor.
> patricia
Cool Collection--
I have to say you should continue to collect and not donate--yet... One
never can tell what the value of Beat stuff really is. Market could
totaly bomb--or get better, if the current interest continues. e.g. I 'm
a collector and have seen OTR, 1st editons go from $700.00 to
1,800--same condition at book shows in the Washington,DC area. I dont
think it will ever drop much for the big three, but none of the
so-called experts put much faith in the minor charcters. And the secure
market is mostly in books, not the ephemeral.
Myself--if you want to sell it -I might be interested in the target
signed by WSB--I'm still working on why he was so fascinated by
handguns, (but never used as a poster boy for the NRA). let me know if
you want to sell it and how much.
Patrick
eastwind@erols.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:28:34 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Be There or Be Square (Marie Countryman Reading)
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Those who may have missed previous posts should know that Marie
Countryman of Beat-L fame will be reading from her poetry at
Polk Street Beans & Cafe
1733 Polk Street, San Francisco
415-776-9292
Show starts at 7pm
Be There or Be Square
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:32:07 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Be There Part II
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I should have added that the reading is 7pm THURSDAY, JANUARY 8
See you there
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:57:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Alexander Supertramp
In-Reply-To: <19980107090036.2278.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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James Lavin wrote about Chris McCandless:
> He was an accomplished outdoors person who
>happened to overestimate his own abilities. That wasn't what was
>ultimately responsible for his death. Instead a string of bad luck
>cause his demise.
> Peace, Jimi
Jimi,
When McCandless became so weak he couldn't forage for food he tried to
return but could not cross a bever pond andthen the river that was running
much higher than it was when he first arrived.
Had he not torn up and thrown his maps away he would have seen --marked on
the map--a means to cross. Just six miles away was a steel cable and bucket
that was tied up on his side of the river.
A simple rash act. Krakauer speculated that since there was no real
wilderness where he was, he created a "wilderness" by destroying the map
that showed civilization still crowding in on him.
No books listed the seed pods (of the potato plant he was eating) as toxic
so it was assumed that he had mistakenly eaten seed pods from the wild
sweet pea which closely resembles the wild potato. Krakauer, after much
thought, decided McCandless would not have made this kind of a mistake and
I agree. Krakauer's research showed that the wild potatoe produces an
alkoloid that concentrates in the seed pods in late summer to discourage
animals from eating the seeds. The alkolid, it was learned, is swainsonine
which is the compound known to veterinarians as the toxic agent in
locoweed. This poison affects a person neurologically and inhibits an
enzyme essential to glycoprotein metabolism. Krakauer points out that
animals that stop eating it can recover, IF they are in robust condition to
begin with. McCandless was not.
Old-timers were surprised to learn that he had, indeed, shot a moose, and
not a caribou. Unfortunately he had never read any materail on how to cure
and store the meat. He had the means and the time to slice the meat into
thin strips and cure it using the heat and smoke of a simple campfire.
Sad that this gifted, intelligent, articulate, hardworking, very likable
young man, as a result of a couple of rash acts, died while so close to
help. Indications that he was preparing to return to the life he had left
behind two years earlier makes the story even sadder.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:08:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: When trees are outlawed...
In-Reply-To: <009BFEC6.2EEE4AA0.13@kenyon.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Was Sony Bono beat?
Of course we can't forget those best selling LPs:
Sonny and Cher Sing Woody's Dust Bowl Ditties,
and
Sonny and Cher Love Bobby Dylan
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:13:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: mail go bouncy list
In-Reply-To: <34B3A037.1D86@sunflower.com>
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I thought if i posted the partial list
>someone would scold or imspire me to keep going until i at least got the
>stuff off the floor.
>patricia
Quite a list.
Consider yourself scolded (and hopefuly inspired).
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:09:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page updated!
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Yes I have updated it again for the New Year...also, look in the future for
all new pages and links! Thanks for 1997, the year of the founding of The
Kerouac Quarterly!
Guess what Kerouac did 50 years ago today!
Go to the page and find out.... at:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Bye for now and stay away from ski slopes with trees!
Paul...
>
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:14:35 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: photo wanted
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i think i have the copy of on the road with that picture. the publisher of
mine is city lights. however, i have also seen a copy out by penguin with the
same or similar picture.
aeronwy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:27:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: For Boston-area Beats!
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If you're in the Boston Area tonight, broadcasting from Boston University,
(WBOR at 90.9 FM) there is an hour-long interview with David Amram and John
Suiter about Jack Kerouac. Check it out if you can! The Kerouac Quarterly
will highlight parts of the interview on the web page in the near future.
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Take care, Paul of TKQ....
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:28:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: photo wanted
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sorry!Forgot to give the time..try around 8:00 PM or 9:00 PM...sorry again.
WBOR 90.9 FM in Boston-area...
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:44:25 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Alexander Supertramp
Content-Type: text/plain
I really feel that the discussion of alexander supertramp has taken a
turn for the worst.. All that we have talked about is how he screwed up
(or did not screw up) the end of his life.
We should be discussing the incredible amount of life he lived and
people he affected, not the fact that yes.. he is dead.
What about the 70 year old man in Nevada or something who was living a
happy life of retirement until he met supertramp. At the time,
supertramp was living outside of a commune type situation in the desert.
He left on his trek to Alaska, died.. The 70 year old man is now living
in the desert, near where Supertramp had his tent.
That is one of only a few ways in which he impacted a dozen people in
the course of two years.
Read the book, understand the incredible things he did and not the
tragic way he died...
-Greg
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:25:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Coming soon to TKQ...
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Coming soon, the first of many new additions to the quarterly and web
page...the real time Kerouac Quarterly chat group. Stay tuned for further
info. P.
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:46:40 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Let's get this New Year rolling...
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Ever answered the Proust Questions? Well, here they is:
1. What is your most marked characteristic?
2. What do you consider your greatest achievement?
3. When and where were you happiest?
4. What is your greatest regret?
5. What is your idea of perfect happiness?
6. What is your most treasured possession?
7. Where would you like to live?
8. What is your greatest fear?
9. What is the trait you most deplore in yourself?
10. What is the trait you most deplore in others?
11. What do you consider the most overrated virtue?
12. What is your greatest extravagance?
13. What is your favourite journey?
14. What is it that you most dislike?
15. What is the quality you most like in a man?
16. What is the quality you most like in a woman?
17. What do you most value in your friends?
18. If you were to come back as a person or thing, what do you think it would
be?
19. If you could choose what to come back as, what would it be?
20. How would you like to die?
BTW, does anyone know if JK ever answered these 20 questions? It seems likely
that he would have. I would love to hear his answers. And in a few days, I'll
post Proust's answers here, if you wish. There are two versions I know of,
answered first when he was 13, and second when he was 20.
I hope this generates some interesting results and threads.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:07:11 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Let's get this New Year rolling...
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Homework Already?
Do we have any of Marcel's answers from a somewhat riper age than 13 or 20?
Not enough mail in your mailbox with the scintillating Alexander Supertramp
thread that has us all so rivited?
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:02:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Let's get this New Year rolling...
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 06:46 PM 1/7/98 EST, you wrote:
>Ever answered the Proust Questions? Well, here they is:
>
>1. What is your most marked characteristic?
Perseverance...
>2. What do you consider your greatest achievement?
To date...the Kerouac Quarterly
>3. When and where were you happiest?
the womb
>4. What is your greatest regret?
Not living after my death in which I will know my greatest regret
>5. What is your idea of perfect happiness?
You will never attain this, even the most peaked form of happiness is marred
by misery.
>6. What is your most treasured possession?
The Complete Beethoven edition
>7. Where would you like to live?
In New England where I'm standing , about 200 years ago.
>8. What is your greatest fear?
I'm afraid I don't know.
>9. What is the trait you most deplore in yourself?
That which makes me human, weakness.
>10. What is the trait you most deplore in others?
Their tendencies to be humans.
>11. What do you consider the most overrated virtue?
Fidelity, it mars the way to follow the advice of your spirit.
>12. What is your greatest extravagance?
U Know
>13. What is your favourite journey?
Its not life...
>14. What is it that you most dislike?
It's not life...
>15. What is the quality you most like in a man?
He's a dumb ape.
>16. What is the quality you most like in a woman?
She's a loving ape.
>17. What do you most value in your friends?
Friendship.
>18. If you were to come back as a person or thing, what do you think it would
>be?
Van Gogh's severed earlobe.
>19. If you could choose what to come back as, what would it be?
The right hand of Vermeer of Delft as he paints the Lacemaker....
>20. How would you like to die?
After life...
>
>BTW, does anyone know if JK ever answered these 20 questions? It seems likely
>that he would have. I would love to hear his answers. And in a few days, I'll
>post Proust's answers here, if you wish. There are two versions I know of,
>answered first when he was 13, and second when he was 20.
>
>I hope this generates some interesting results and threads.
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:38:02 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
>In a message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:
>
><< who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>
>
>if your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously doubt yours
>is, what awaits is death.
>
>have you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?
>
>
>brian
No, but now i'm intrigued....
Diane.
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:28:01 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs, Wittgenstein
In-Reply-To: <34B342B2.330D@tezcat.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:
> Has anyone out there read a work by Wittgenstein cover to cover?
I have, but I'm not sure it really matters all that much with
Wittgenstein. One must not have too much faith in cardboard.
(& BTW, there's still a lot of W's writings not yet published....yet
another "estate" controversy)
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:39:43 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
In-Reply-To: <199801052159.QAA01136@ionline.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, M. Cakebread wrote:
> Can anyone briefly tell me if the references mentioned
> are influenced by Wittgenstein's _Tractatus_, or
> _Philosophical Investigations_? Just curious.
In all my reading of Burroughs, I've never run across anything that
made me think, "Gee, that sounds just like Wittgenstein." So apart
from the explicit reference in the intro to Naked Lunch, I don't think
Burroughs ever had much to say about W.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:44:09 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Some American Haikus
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I put up some news sounds at Kerouac Speaks
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
They are from the Blues and Haikus CD, from the first track called American
Haikus.
If you don't have the CD's you can listen to snippets from it at this site
and see (or hear rather) what you are missing.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:53:46 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: The Beat Goes On
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Boys keep chasing girls to get a kiss
And the beat goes on
Men keep marching off to war
And the beat goes on.
Was Sonny Bono beat?
The Charleston was once the rage uh huh?
And the Beat goes on.
No, but the Vanilla Fudge were.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:01:36 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Howl
MIME-Version: 1.0
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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> Howl is one of the greatest poems of the 20th Century. The other one
> that I like as much is The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock. But, we
> don't want to go down that road again, do we.
It might be a good time to head along those hollers now that it is a new
year. Is it true that Alfred in the Batman comics was named after J.
Alfred?
>
> Howl was a poem that bubbles over with its positive energy. The poet
> has at last discovered himself and in an excited frenzy takes us through
> the entire range of his world, experience, hopes dreams and visions.
i don't think it is so frenzied at all. perhaps for the time.
It
> describes too well the Amerika I grew up in and continue to live in.
My Americka changes every day -- at least.
>
> Howl awakened in me the realization that poetry is alive and well and
> serves a purpose to me.
The Liveliness of Howl is its testament in my way of thinking. It is
the Celebration of Life through thick and thin, blood and guts and
brains in my teeth, dead burnt bodies (oops that was Alice's Restaraunt)
> Howl, a great great great poem. And a perfect name.
I think it could be named "HOOT!" <big grin>
>
> Peace,
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
david rhaesa
walden farm, Kansas
p.s. can someone backchannel me re-subscribe functions pretty please.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:34:35 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: the last time....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Diane De Rooy wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-12-04 10:04:58 EST, you write:
>
> << >
> > i heard/read somewhere that FFCoppola has the rights to 'on the road' -
> > anyone know more?
> > --
> >>
>
> This will get you started:
> <A HREF=" http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ ">Literary Kicks</A>
> http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
> <A HREF="http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Films/BeatFilmList.html">The Beats In
> Film</A>
> http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Films/BeatFilmList.html
> <A HREF="http://www.c3f.com/holywood/ontheroa.html">Hollywood's Coming: On Th
> e Road</A>
> http://www.c3f.com/holywood/ontheroa.html
>
> This project has been in the shadows for decades, and there is a lot of
> information out there on the internet. We've also discussed it to death on
> the list here, passionately and then annoyingly... you can get the letters on
> this subject from the Beat-L archive. Maybe then we won't get sucked back
> into discussing it endlessly...
Endlessly is a long long time. I'm thinking maybe the old man in the
back of the truck should be Dennis Hopper. Whaddayall think? Jack
Nicholson for the Columbia football coach.
david rhaesa
solomon, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:04:28 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
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Leon Tabory wrote:
>
> I had a backchannell that kids me about having my tongue tied by a tongue
> lashing from Big Daddy Bill that makes very funny references to war happy
> clansmen in cliques.
>
> Truth is that I considered coming to the defense of my thoughts on the
> subject of authentication of self vs concern about our cultures and their
> dreams. I decided to leave it alone after the subject moved on to redemption
> of the soul, or has anyone suggested redemption of the american dream as
> well?
i've been suggesting this in one way or another all of my adult life
(though admittedly i'm still a whippersnapper)
>
> While I greatly admire your lucid reasoning as well as Diane's, you guys
> haven't convinced me at all that Jack felt that authentication or redemption
> of his life or his soul depended upon the drubbing that America dreaming was
> getting from America dealing with the dirty business of survival and power.
>
> Yes he liked to write about both and hinted many ways to the influence of
> one upon the other myriad facets and sometimes paradoxically appearing
> details. Yes his attention frequently roamed from one aspect to another of
> the vast universe that are our daily experiences of life. Still I have not
> seen one instance of where he ties in authentication of self with the goings
> on in the American dream.
It behooves us (as my stepsister katie's teacher would say) to seriously
consider how each of us can help to electrify American dreaming once
again so that this experiment in nation-hood will not be another long
long nightmare in the darkness from which none of us can awake. It
seems that this electrification is closely tied to notions of
authenitication and that revivals of Americanism in both intrapersonal
and universal meanings are self-reinforcing.
>
> It seems to me that we are looking at our use of words that denote richly
> complex mixtures of realities and imaginary descriptions of loosely
> "defined" conceptualizations. phantasies,
exactly.
>
> People authenticate their american identity when they give their lives in
> war with declared enemies of the state.
This is a fairly narrow scope for authentication - we can serve
authentically without dying in wars.
It has nevertheless happened that
> some prisoners of war found more in common with their guards than with their
> nation.
The research of Bettleheim (i believe it was) on the concentration camp
victims associating with the values of the guards seems to correlate
with these notions.
When two catholics kill each other ina war of their nations, does
> that authenticate theit religious identities, their national identities, the
> identities of their selves?
Once again, it seems that the killing notion of authentification seems
to be a difficult one for the world to detach. If two soldiers from
different nations save each other's lives in war, and they are both
catholic which authentications are involved?
Many eagle scouts have authenticated their scout
> credo that way.
I only made it a couple weeks in scouts. I couldn't hack it.
Many writers have authenticated their identity as writers by
> the work they produced. Jack Keouac authenticated himself as a writer who
> tilled the soil of the american landscape among other places that he could
> find to search for any signs of life, mindless and mindfull action.
Tilled the soil of the American landscape is an interesting metaphor.
I'm not certain it is appropriate. It is lovely but Jack was more of a
railroad and seaman than a farmer it seems. I would say Woody Guthrie
was closer to the soil.
It still
> seems to me that for matters of the soul he seemed to reach to metaphysical
> testimonies that transcended national dreams or realities.
I've not digested sufficent quantities of Jack yet to recognize the
heights of the transcendence. I don't believe he left the meso-sphere.
Thank Goodness William did that.
>
> Arguments are won by one side or another.
Rarely. Arguments are part of a process of knowing. Argumentation is
the cutting edge of epistomelogy research not public opinion. Notions
of who won or lost are mere soundbites they leave little weight in the
long run.
Reflecting upon our understanding
> of things only stimulates us to further explorations, hopefully to be able
> to see more clearly in the grey areas of the mind where the perspective of
> others brings more light as well as creates new shadows.
Definitely. And this is why the winning or losing of the arguments per
se isn't the question. Rather it is the reflecting that argument brings
out in all of us.
Until the mind
> becomes a well lit place. Would that be redemption?
Doubtful
But when anyone starts
> telling me that they know what I must do or think in order to find
> redemption, then we do have an argument on our hands.
I believe it would be more of a good old Irish fistfight rather than an
argument at that point.
>
> Unredeemed and in no need of authentication
happy new year leon,
david rhaesa
apt. #23
> leon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 7:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
>
> >I'm not sure I'm going to put this very well but I agree with Diane.
> >Kerouac, it seems to me, did seek to become part of, and to capture in
> >his art, the vast spirit of the American dream as Wolfe and Fitzgerald
> >and others did before him. I agree with Diane wholeheartedly that he
> >never found the redemption that he was looking for and maybe the
> >impossibility of achieving such redemption is a truth readers discover
> >through his work. How does one discover or authenticate himself,
> >except by measuring himself against a larger idea or tradition --
> >national identity, religion etc. In the end, one's search for self may
> >end in a rejection of such big ideas as divisive and counterproductive
> >but the search, it seems to me, has to involve a struggle with such
> >ideas nonetheless.
> >.-
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:58:12 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: This Land is your land
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-01-07 09:53:36 EST, Bill Gargan wrote:
<< I'll be really suprised if Dylan doesn't win. >>
Bill,
I agree that the new disc is his best in years, I love it...BUT in the folk
category he's up against Guy Clark and Iris Dement. If he loses to either of
them...it'll be OK with me. Guy's Keepers is NOT his best album, but Iris's
nominated disc is so good one wonders how she can top it. If you haven't
heard "Living in the Wasteland of the Free", you have a rare treat in store.
Buy it! You won't be sorry.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 06:28:07 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: life in the communes
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i was wondering if anyone can help me with this topic. i am supposed to
write a paper abpit communes, from the gender perspective, focusing
especially on upbringing of children in these communities, how they
adapt to 'ordinary' life afterwards and whether they regret having grown
up in such an envinronment. if you have any material on this, please
send it to me.
and, btw, i think that the poor alexander supertramp should be left to
rest in peace, and not be criticised so harshly. who knows how many of
us would survive under the same conditions.
ksenija
ps. did you know that the little mermaid in coppenhagen had her head
severed off two days ago?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:59:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: This Land is your land
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I agree with Dennis about the Iris Dement song that he mentions....terrific,
but expected given the high level of her first two albums (three?). I have
been strangely unmoved so far by the latest Dylan, but more listening to
come. I AM over the top on the newest Rory McLeod album, Dan Bern's latest
(which is the most bizaare Dylan sonification you'll ever hear!) and Chuck
Brodsky's "Lettres in the dirt"....solid, solid albums.
Couldn't remember if I'd already mentioned the beat connection s in
several of Bern's songs...and McLeod is as Beat as you're gonna get...a
modern day Guthrie travelling the world fighting fascism with his guitar,
trombone(!), tap shoes and harmonica and the most amazing songs and singing.
Antoine
>In a message dated 98-01-07 09:53:36 EST, Bill Gargan wrote:
><< I'll be really suprised if Dylan doesn't win. >>
>
>Bill,
>I agree that the new disc is his best in years, I love it...BUT in the folk
>category he's up against Guy Clark and Iris Dement. If he loses to either of
>them...it'll be OK with me. Guy's Keepers is NOT his best album, but Iris's
>nominated disc is so good one wonders how she can top it. If you haven't
>heard "Living in the Wasteland of the Free", you have a rare treat in store.
>Buy it! You won't be sorry.
>Dennis
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:19:07 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: This Land is your land
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Antoine Maloney wrote:
>
> I agree with Dennis about the Iris Dement song that he mentions....terrific,
> but expected given the high level of her first two albums (three?). I have
> been strangely unmoved so far by the latest Dylan, but more listening to
> come. I AM over the top on the newest Rory McLeod album, Dan Bern's latest
> (which is the most bizaare Dylan sonification you'll ever hear!) and Chuck
> Brodsky's "Lettres in the dirt"....solid, solid albums.
>
> Couldn't remember if I'd already mentioned the beat connection s in
> several of Bern's songs...and McLeod is as Beat as you're gonna get...a
> modern day Guthrie travelling the world fighting fascism with his guitar,
> trombone(!), tap shoes and harmonica and the most amazing songs and singing.
>
> Antoine
>
> >In a message dated 98-01-07 09:53:36 EST, Bill Gargan wrote:
> ><< I'll be really suprised if Dylan doesn't win. >>
> >
> >Bill,
> >I agree that the new disc is his best in years, I love it...BUT in the folk
> >category he's up against Guy Clark and Iris Dement. If he loses to either of
> >them...it'll be OK with me. Guy's Keepers is NOT his best album, but Iris's
> >nominated disc is so good one wonders how she can top it. If you haven't
> >heard "Living in the Wasteland of the Free", you have a rare treat in store.
> >Buy it! You won't be sorry.
> >Dennis
> >
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
> cease to be amused."
the only criticism i have of Dylan's newest album is how many lines are
copies of things i've said and thought!!! <laughing>
david rhaesa
smolan, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:54:21 EST
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From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: photo wanted
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Hello Johan,
It's sunny and clear here in Northern California and Marie Countryman is ready
to do a reading in 'Frisco! My wife and I enjoyed a pre-performance run
through the other night and enjoyed it immensely!
The photo you speak of (B/W w/Neal's head tilted) was indeed taken by Carolyn
Cassady in 1952. It was on a previous edition of OTR put out by Viking prior
to the latest multicolored cover. Can't help you with that particular photo
but another on the same roll taken at the same time is used as the cover of
The First Third. We have that photo emblazoned on a Tee Shirt with Jack's
signature and the words "Adios King". The shirt is heavy duty cotton in khaki
and the photo is tinted sepia. Gorgeous product.
E-mail your snail mail address privately and we'll mail you our latest
catalog. Yes, we ship all over the world.
Jerry Cimino
Fog City
www.kerouac.com
1-800-KER-OUAC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:57:25 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Marie
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Bigsurs4me wrote:
>
> Hello Johan,
>
> It's sunny and clear here in Northern California and Marie Countryman is ready
> to do a reading in 'Frisco! My wife and I enjoyed a pre-performance run
> through the other night and enjoyed it immensely!
>
break a leg (or other body part) marie!!!!
david rhaesa
roxbury, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 05:56:20 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: William Carlos Williams [Fwd: New Addition to Burke-L's
Repository]
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This just popped up on the Burke-L. I thought that some folks
interested in the WCW (not to be confused with WCW wrestling)
scholarship might be interested in it.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
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Reply-To: dblake@SIU.EDU
Sender: Kenneth Burke Discussion List <BURKE-L@SIU.EDU>
From: David Blakesley <dblake@SIU.EDU>
Subject: New Addition to Burke-L's Repository
To: BURKE-L@SIU.EDU
Greetings (again),
I'd like to announce that the latest addition to Burke-L's Conference
Paper Repository is now online and availabe for your review:
"Tending to the Imagination: Perspective and Incongruity in William
Carlos Williams and Kenneth Burke" by Mark C. Long, University of
Washington
http://www.siu.edu/departments/english/acadareas/rhetcomp/burke/long.html
Mark presented his paper to a special session of the William Carlos
Williams Society at the recent Modern Language Association meeting in
Toronto (Dec. 30, 1997). I'm sure that he would love to hear your
reactions. The other papers presented at that session should be online
soon.
D.B.
--
************************************************************************
David Blakesley
Director of Writing Studies in English
Southern Illinois University-Carbondale
Visit the Virtual Burkeian Parlor (home of "Burke-L") at
http://www.siu.edu/departments/english/acadareas/rhetcomp/burke/index.html
************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 05:01:31 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: A few things...
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ok, my response to the past coupla' threads....
as far as folk music goes...the best modern folk artist i have heard is
Gerard McHugh, on his debut album "more than i". i bought it for 25
cents when my schools radio station was having a clearence (i ended up
buying 90 cds for 25 cents a piece...most of them are great)
alexander supertramp...in regards to his death, i cannot think of a
more poetic way to die at this moment...
as for his life...it seems his legacy is more in his death than his
life, that is sad to me, but those who admire the way he died most
likely would admire the way he lived more.
also...
who wrote, "the electric kool-aid acid test"?
thanks.
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:16:28 EST
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Subject: Re: life in the communes
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In a message dated 98-01-08 00:33:45 EST, ksenija writes:
<< ps. did you know that the little mermaid in coppenhagen had her head
severed off two days ago? >>
As if we didn't have reason enough for sorrow...i had not heard this one. I'm
going to sit here, shake my head for awhile, wait to see if anger overtakes my
sadness, and decide whether or not to load my guns and stroll down to the post
office.
OK...More suffering...I really find this news devastating...but I promise not
to go postal.
Dennis
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Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:18:35 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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Comments: cc: bohemian <Bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu>
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I wondered if anyone could forward this note to RON. thanks in advance.
race
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@midusa.net>
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Ron,
I'd be interested in any critical commentary (destructive or
constructive) concerning the Firewalk manuscript. I'm currently in the
process of revisions. I'm centering on the Hospitalization in Saint
Joseph Missouri which is mentioned briefly with regard to Doc
Whitehead. I'm wondering if you are any relation to a Whitehead who
debated for the University of Louisville in the early 1980s.
Last i heard from you, you were in the middle of mass liquidation of
artistic assets. How are things now? I hope well.
david
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>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Thu Jan 8 05:19:05 1998
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>Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:16:28 EST
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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>From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
>Subject: Re: life in the communes
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>In a message dated 98-01-08 00:33:45 EST, ksenija writes:
>
><< ps. did you know that the little mermaid in coppenhagen had her head
> severed off two days ago? >>
did i miss something?
little mermaid?
-julian
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Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:20:47 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: A few things...
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Julian Ruck wrote:
>
> also...
> who wrote, "the electric kool-aid acid test"?
>
Tom Wolfe not to be confused with Thomas Wolf. I realized I traded my
copy of TEKAAT to Eric Decker for a free trip to the Grateful Dead at
Soldier Field. I miss that book sometimes. I wonder if it was a good
trade.
race
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:41:39 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: A few things...
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the new dylan thang is is great.
the most poetic way of dying is of an ripe old age after really living
ones own life.
I have started writing a book , a recurrence of dreams.
the central character is an outlaw hung for bludgening indian joe for
his shoes, haunting a house guiding a small child, alone and sweetly
into the days. he recalls when he was hung by the good townspeople of
topeka that he felt that he had misstepped. somber and sober in death
he led a life he never enjoyed in life. He and his brother was
originally from texas. His brother was hung in texas a couple of years
after. thanks for all your responses on my list. I found another pile
of books and photos in the storage room. I go now
patricia
Julian Ruck wrote:
>
> ok, my response to the past coupla' threads....
>
> as far as folk music goes...the best modern folk artist i have heard is
> Gerard McHugh, on his debut album "more than i". i bought it for 25
> cents when my schools radio station was having a clearence (i ended up
> buying 90 cds for 25 cents a piece...most of them are great)
>
> alexander supertramp...in regards to his death, i cannot think of a
> more poetic way to die at this moment...
> as for his life...it seems his legacy is more in his death than his
> life, that is sad to me, but those who admire the way he died most
> likely would admire the way he lived more.
>
> also...
> who wrote, "the electric kool-aid acid test"?
>
> thanks.
> -julian
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:45:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: life in the communes
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In a message dated 98-01-08 08:24:40 EST, Julian wrote:
<< did i miss something? >>
YES!!!
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:47:12 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Johan Gotthardt Olsen <johan@DARWIN.KI.KU.DK>
Subject: MermaidDeathTrip
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Here's a little briefing on The Little Mermaid. HC Andersen wrote a
fairytale called The Little Mermaid and someone made an overly cute
little statue of The Little Mermaid and put IT on a rock in a harbour
in Copenhagen, Denmark, where also this mail was written. In 1964,
someone beheaded her the first time. Everybody knows it was a guy
called Joergebn Nash, a provo artist. Then it happened again a few
days ago, everybody's talking about it and it's a real big deal but
most people finds it really funny too. A radical feminist group took
responsibility but this is just a joke, nobody knows who and why yet.
Julian: You didn't miss anything. The mermaid was put there to look
out over the harbor for eternity or what would look like eternity,
half naked, legless with a sad fishtail drying out in the sun, her
small romantic, vane shoulders freezing in the winter. Millions of
cameras have taken pictures of her pitiful figure for no particular
reason other than it's what you sort of are supposed to do when you
get there, like eating discusting things in amusement parks and stupid
ice creams on the beach.
I used to walk in that area of the harbor and you know sometimes there
were five or six huge buses scattered around and an enormous crowd of
people flocking around the thing like bees around the queen and
sometimes it made me so, I don't know, like when you see a really
stupid tv SHOW, mostly it's funny.
It's a good thing it lost it's head again, for some reason I can't
define here on the spot.
Johan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:03:01 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: MermaidDeathTrip
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In a message dated 98-01-08 08:49:56 EST, Johan writes:
<< It's a good thing it lost it's head again, for some reason I can't
define here on the spot. >>
Oh my God! I can't understand this reaction. I enjoy eating disgusting
things at amusement parks, I love stupid ice creams at the beach, and I can't
imagine any emotion other than affection for the little mermaid. Something is
wrong. The time is out of joint.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:22:00 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: MermaidDeathTrip
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DCardKJHS wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-01-08 08:49:56 EST, Johan writes:
> << It's a good thing it lost it's head again, for some reason I can't
> define here on the spot. >>
>
> Oh my God! I can't understand this reaction. I enjoy eating disgusting
> things at amusement parks,
my ex-wife and I once ate some disgusting paper entering DisneyLand in
Los Angeles. Pirates of the Carribean was particularly surrrrrreal on
that journey. Me and another guy nicknamed Cocoa-mix got in the rafters
on Tom Sawyer island and jumped down to scare people!
I love stupid ice creams at the beach, and I can't
> imagine any emotion other than affection for the little mermaid. Something is
> wrong. The time is out of joint.
> Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:49:38 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Johan Gotthardt Olsen <johan@DARWIN.KI.KU.DK>
Subject: Mermaids From Heaven
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I can't believe this, you got it all wrong guys. If you didn't eat
disgusting things in amusement parks and silly ice creams on the
beach, my metaphor wouldn't work. So I had anticipated this, you don't
need to inform me elaborately on your... aheam... food habits.
I do, however, admire your great empathy for the little molested
honey-pie that we in a fit of cool, slow motion, indifferent
insaneness chose as the representative monument (ha, ha) of our
country. I have this vision of you all disillusioned, speachless,
wrapped in misty, choking grief, standing around the beheaded metal
shape mourning, I see it in quick-time, like the movie of the flower,
petals opening in just a few seconds, and you stand there while the
sun goes down and up again and the cold autumn wind rustling your hair
untill one of you say ooooooh, don't you just feel so POWERLESS to all
this evil? (time back to normal, *nice*, quick time gives me the
creeps) and the rest of you nod in serene agreement. You get hungry
and all have icecreams even though it's so cold and then, later you go
back to your countries, back here, somebody makes a copy of the head
and you all agree it's not the same and then gradually, neatly, you
dress the whole episode in see-through oblivion UNTIL THE DAY I GO TO
ELLIS ISLAND (ha he he he, evil laughter as irrelevant text rolls over
the screen)...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:26:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
In-Reply-To: <72510081.34b45ce7@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Anyone know if Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich skies?
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:33:37 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: MermaidDeathTrip
i have to agree - she represents unrequited love and the willingness to
sacrifice everything for it - something that seems to afflict nearly
everyone at some point...
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: MermaidDeathTrip
>In a message dated 98-01-08 08:49:56 EST, Johan writes:
><< It's a good thing it lost it's head again, for some reason I can't
> define here on the spot. >>
>
>Oh my God! I can't understand this reaction. I enjoy eating disgusting
>things at amusement parks, I love stupid ice creams at the beach, and I
can't
>imagine any emotion other than affection for the little mermaid. Something
is
>wrong. The time is out of joint.
>Dennis
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:37:46 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: life in the communes
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-----Original Message-----
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 9:40 PM
Subject: life in the communes
>i was wondering if anyone can help me with this topic. i am supposed to
>write a paper abpit communes, from the gender perspective, focusing
>especially on upbringing of children in these communities, how they
>adapt to 'ordinary' life afterwards and whether they regret having grown
>up in such an envinronment. if you have any material on this, please
>send it to me.
>
I suppose the topic may be of some interest to the list, dealing as it does
with the spiritual children of the beats, even if to some they are a wayward
branch of the family.
My son Ari Christopher barely qualifies since he lived only the first three
months of his life at the Flower Farm, our commune in La Selva Beach, a few
miles south of Santa Cruz, California. He doesn't remember life there, but
feels quite proud of the fact that he was born there (in 1970).
My daughter Ramah Kim lived there two years from age one to three. She
still carries a few very fond memories of her life there, and our ideals of
those days continue to inspire her. She is doing remarkably well in her
life, is engaged to a wonderful young man Peter Fox. If you are interested
you can see their picture on a page put up in Bohemian Ink.
http://www.levity.com/corduroy/journals/tabory.htm
I feel very blessed as a father. If you have more specific questions,
let's correspond back channell.
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:07:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Burroughs, Wittgenstein
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<snip> >"estate" controversy)
>*******
>Jeff Taylor
>taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
>*******
To quote Monty Python: "He said the word, he said the word"
Again, to quote Monty Python: "Please don't say that word"
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:59:25 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
Content-Type: text/plain
>Anyone know if Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich skies?
>
>j grant
>
We can only hope...
-Greg
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Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:09:15 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Marie
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If you have missed James' post and wonder about this, marie countryman will
read her poetry tonight 7 - 9 pm at the
Polk and Beans Cafe
1733 Polk Street, San Francisco
415-776-9292
Sherri, James, Jim Gardner, myself and my good friend San Francisco poet
Q.R. Hand will be there. His reading of marie's Psycho-Bureaucratic Rant
rendered into jazz had us all spellbound.
Here is marie:
i'll be reading the lastest and last version of In Somnia, which qr hand was
most helpful in a short afternoon of readings and writings. i'll be glad to
post the new version on the list after i return home.
looks like it's going to be a lot of fun!
mc
-----Original Message-----
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 11:17 PM
Subject: Marie
>Bigsurs4me wrote:
>>
>> Hello Johan,
>>
>> It's sunny and clear here in Northern California and Marie Countryman is
ready
>> to do a reading in 'Frisco! My wife and I enjoyed a pre-performance run
>> through the other night and enjoyed it immensely!
>>
>
>break a leg (or other body part) marie!!!!
>
>david rhaesa
>roxbury, Kansas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:37:35 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
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jo grant wrote:
> Anyone know if Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich skies?
>
> j grant
We should be so lucky. If I come across either of them on the slopes,
I'll be sure to direct them toward the trees.
-E
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:39:06 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: A few things...
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> Tom Wolfe not to be confused with Thomas Wolf. I realized I traded my
>
> copy of TEKAAT to Eric Decker for a free trip to the Grateful Dead at
> Soldier Field. I miss that book sometimes. I wonder if it was a good
>
> trade.
>
> race
Sounds like a good trade to me. The book seems a little easier to
replace.
-E
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:48:44 -0500
Reply-To: "henkel@wmich.edu" <henkel@wmich.edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Scott Henkel <henkel@WMICH.EDU>
Organization: OVPR
Subject: Re: William Carlos Williams [Fwd: New Addition to Burke-L's
Repository]
MIME-version: 1.0
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Who gives the WCW scholarship, or where can I get more info on it?
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: RACE --- [SMTP:race@MIDUSA.NET]
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 1998 6:56 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: William Carlos Williams [Fwd: New Addition to Burke-L's Repository]
This just popped up on the Burke-L. I thought that some folks
interested in the WCW (not to be confused with WCW wrestling)
scholarship might be interested in it.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
<< Message: New Addition to Burke-L's Repository >>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:41:40 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Laurie Hutchinson <laurel555@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Would you really wish that fate on anyone???
Laurel
---Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU> wrote:
>
> jo grant wrote:
>
> > Anyone know if Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich skies?
> >
> > j grant
>
> We should be so lucky. If I come across either of them on the
slopes,
> I'll be sure to direct them toward the trees.
>
> -E
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:14:33 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>jo grant wrote:
>
>> Anyone know if Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich skies?
>>
>> j grant
>
>We should be so lucky. If I come across either of them on the slopes,
>I'll be sure to direct them toward the trees.
>
>-E
You guys sound just like those mean spirited republicans I always hear about.
Just because Helms and Gingrich are too liberal for you you act like you
want them to die.
You right wingers need to grow up.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:27:19 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
In-Reply-To: <19980108164140.10689.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Wish in one hand, ____ in the other, see which fills up the fastest. I
don't make wishes; however, I'll go on record and state that I would not
grieve if either of those chicken ____ thugs wiped-out on the slopes.
j grant
>Would you really wish that fate on anyone???
>Laurel
>
>
>
>---Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU> wrote:
>>
>> jo grant wrote:
>>
>> > Anyone know if Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich skies?
>> >
>> > j grant
>>
>> We should be so lucky. If I come across either of them on the
>slopes,
>> I'll be sure to direct them toward the trees.
>>
>> -E
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:25:28 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
RIGHT ON JOE!!! <getting a great laugh> ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
>Anyone know if Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich skies?
>
>j grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:36:16 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Marie
Content-Type: text/plain
i figger if i fall on my head, that will minimize the damage! thanks,
dave. i'll write ya all about it, guys, once i recover (ha). it will be
a nice evening with as many folks as i've met out here as possible. what
could go wrong with all that positive energy?
mc
>>break a leg (or other body part) marie!!!!
>
>david rhaesa
>roxbury, Kansas
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:56:05 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
jo grant wrote:
>
> Wish in one hand, ____ in the other, see which fills up the fastest. I
> don't make wishes; however, I'll go on record and state that I would not
> grieve if either of those chicken ____ thugs wiped-out on the slopes.
> j grant
>
> >Would you really wish that fate on anyone???
> >Laurel
> >
> >
> >
> >---Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU> wrote:
> >>
> >> jo grant wrote:
> >>
> >> > Anyone know if Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich skies?
> >> >
> >> > j grant
> >>
> >> We should be so lucky. If I come across either of them on the
> >slopes,
> >> I'll be sure to direct them toward the trees.
> >>
> >> -E
> >>
> >
> >_________________________________________________________
> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
The BLANK is filled in with a chickenheartedJayhawkwing and Teryaki
sauce
david rhaesa
brookville, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:17:09 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: MermaidDeathTrip
Content-Type: text/plain
i would like to vote for the elimination of all things circus food, and
ice-cream on benches should be reserved for the elderly and little
children who get it all over there face, like everyone else manages to
do...
it looks ridiculus when a grown person gets ice-cream sandwich on a new
set of clothes...
truly...it is nothing but a hazard to your person i suppose..
in loving mockery of the american dream,
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:22:37 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: the mystic thoughts
In-Reply-To: <34B43FB9.9EF31BDD@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
jack kerouac bright lights the van in the morning
who describe small city in stopped the door and i
d himself as 1953 when i w smell the fresh bread
a strange so as a young st and the meadows had fl
litary crazy ory of my lif ash of lightning and r
catholic mys e and cechov aymond carver was too
tic young to write poetry
---
rinaldo
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:25:12 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: The Beat Goes On
In-Reply-To: <34B43FB9.9EF31BDD@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 21.53 07/01/98 -0500, Bentz wrote:
>Boys keep chasing girls to get a kiss
>
>And the beat goes on
>
>Men keep marching off to war
>
>And the beat goes on.
>
>Was Sonny Bono beat?
>
>The Charleston was once the rage uh huh?
>
>And the Beat goes on.
>
>No, but the Vanilla Fudge were.
>
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
&
allen ginsberg writes in the poem ECOLOGUE (fall 1970)
(...)
i.e. Police control Cities, not Mayors or philosophers -
(...)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:40:36 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mermaids From Heaven
Content-Type: text/plain
personally...i am on your side...
and i HATE ice-cream in the cold...
also...
i don't like it when people say "un-thaw"...like they are going to
"un-thaw" the meat...
to you, that may seem like an entirely different thing than that which
you are refering to, but in my mind they are connected in some pre-womb
state of hilarious behavior...
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:08:55 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Laurie Hutchinson wrote:
> Would you really wish that fate on anyone???
> Laurel
>
No, of course not. It was meant in jest, albeit a bit off-taste.
For all I know, Newt and Jesse are two great guys, a real Sal and Dean
of the right-wing set. Although Jesse is fundamentally opposed to Carlo
Marx. I'm just a little offended by their politics. Nothing personal.
I'm a Dharma Ski Bum who knows it's not that dangerous in the trees.
You just gotta use a little caution. Statistically, I'm much more
likely to die while driving to the ski area.
-E
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:14:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "James F. Wood 253-7886" <WOODJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU>
Subject: My first time
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Hi this is my first time on here so take it easy with me. i am not really a
Beat more of an Old hippie and a Vietnam vet. ok flame me if you want, what
the hell i can always leave and go to the local VFw and get drunk and
forget it all.
Just hanging around for a while
Jim"The old Hippie"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 13:54:09 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: My first time
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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James F. Wood 253-7886 wrote:
>
> Hi this is my first time on here so take it easy with me. i am not really a
> Beat more of an Old hippie and a Vietnam vet. ok flame me if you want, what
> the hell i can always leave and go to the local VFw and get drunk and
> forget it all.
>
> Just hanging around for a while
> Jim"The old Hippie"
Howdy Jim
My Daddy's name is Jim.
He once sang:
"If I was King of the World I'd throw away the Bars"
BUT:
he never wooduv thrown away the good ole V.F.W.
david rhaesa
#23
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:19:07 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: My first time
why should we flame for being a human being, Jim. welcome aboard!!! hope
you'll enjoy our crazy, wonderful, beatific group.
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: James F. Wood 253-7886 <WOODJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 11:28 AM
Subject: My first time
Hi this is my first time on here so take it easy with me. i am not really a
Beat more of an Old hippie and a Vietnam vet. ok flame me if you want, what
the hell i can always leave and go to the local VFw and get drunk and
forget it all.
Just hanging around for a while
Jim"The old Hippie"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:38:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:04 PM 1/7/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>The research of Bettleheim (i believe it was) on the
>concentration camp victims associating with the
>values of the guards seems to correlate
>with these notions.
1943 Bettelheim article titled "Individual and Mass Behavior
in Extreme Situations." Didn't Bruno kill himself
in recent yrs?
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:39:30 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: BRUNO (was Re: Stone on Kerouac
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> At 10:04 PM 1/7/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>
> >The research of Bettleheim (i believe it was) on the
> >concentration camp victims associating with the
> >values of the guards seems to correlate
> >with these notions.
>
> 1943 Bettelheim article titled "Individual and Mass Behavior
> in Extreme Situations." Didn't Bruno kill himself
> in recent yrs?
>
> Mike
i don't know if he kicked the bucket or not.
i have "Men are not Ants" (or Aunts) 1960 [the year i was conceived] and
"Freud and Man's Soul" 1982 on my shelf.
race
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:55:57 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mainbooks <Mainbooks@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: My first time
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
To "Old Hippie" Jim: Hang in there, this is my first time too. We all have
to start somewhere, hopefully as Ginsberg says, we will get "mystical visions
and cosmic vibrations" From an other "Old Hippie" named Jim....
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:18:37 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jodie R Gardner <JGardner@DOANE.EDU>
Subject: another newcomer...
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hey everybody, this is my second day as a recipient of this list and so far
I think that it is a wonderful thing. The reason that I got into all of
this Beat Culture is because of a college course that I am taking. My class
is called "America Once Magik" and is a wonderful opportunity to learn about
jazz, poetry, literature, and most importantly, the lives and minds of
people as great as Kerouac and Ginsberg. Anyway, I really enjoy this list
and some of the information has been really helpful in understanding things
in class. Thanks!
*jodie*
"Those who can't find anything to live for
always invent something to die for.
Then they want the rest of us to
die for it, too."
- Lew Whelch
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:37:28 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: life in the communes
In-Reply-To: <199801081321.FAA13505@f153.hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:21 AM 1/8/98 PST, you wrote:
>>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Thu Jan 8 05:19:05 1998
>>Received: from listserv (128.228.100.10) by listserv.cuny.edu (LSMTP
>for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.A67BDD90@listserv.cuny.edu>; Thu,
>8 Jan 1998 8:15:58 -0500
>>Received: from CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (LISTSERV release
>1.8c) with
>> NJE id 6989 for BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU; Thu, 8 Jan 1998
>08:18:20 -0500
>>Received: from CUNYVM (NJE origin SMTP5@CUNYVM) by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>(LMail
>> V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 9239; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:16:50
>-0500
>>Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4)
>with TCP;
>> Thu, 08 Jan 98 08:16:49 EST
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>>X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
>>Message-ID: <afade14.34b4d1ae@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:16:28 EST
>>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>>From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
>>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
>>Subject: Re: life in the communes
>>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>>
>>In a message dated 98-01-08 00:33:45 EST, ksenija writes:
>>
>><< ps. did you know that the little mermaid in coppenhagen had her head
>> severed off two days ago? >>
>
>
> did i miss something?
> little mermaid?
>-julian
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
Who is the little mermaid, is that the Disney character?
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:37:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: life in the communes
In-Reply-To: <afade14.34b4d1ae@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:16 AM 1/8/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-01-08 00:33:45 EST, ksenija writes:
>
><< ps. did you know that the little mermaid in coppenhagen had her head
> severed off two days ago? >>
>
>As if we didn't have reason enough for sorrow...i had not heard this one.
I'm
>going to sit here, shake my head for awhile, wait to see if anger
overtakes my
>sadness, and decide whether or not to load my guns and stroll down to the
post
>office.
>OK...More suffering...I really find this news devastating...but I promise not
>to go postal.
>Dennis
>
>
Get real, Ksenija, you can't go postal unless you ARE a postal worker.
Arming yourself and going to your PO Box won't do. Its the bureaucracy
and frustration of working for the Post Office, that leads to the
smashups in the backroom at the PO. We just had a great one in Milwaukee
a few weeks ago. The only more likely place for gunplay is McDonalds,
but if Burger King keeps improving its sandwiches, the franchise could
switch there any day.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:45:15 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: life in the communes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mike rice wrote:
>
> >
> Who is the little mermaid, is that the Disney character?
>
> Mike Rice
which came first Darryl Hannah or the Disney character and why did DH
cross Ellis Island?
race
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:05:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: BRUNO (was Re: Stone on Kerouac
In-Reply-To: <34B53982.572C@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:39 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>M. Cakebread wrote:
>>
>> At 10:04 PM 1/7/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>>
>> >The research of Bettleheim (i believe it was) on the
>> >concentration camp victims associating with the
>> >values of the guards seems to correlate
>> >with these notions.
>>
>> 1943 Bettelheim article titled "Individual and Mass Behavior
>> in Extreme Situations." Didn't Bruno kill himself
>> in recent yrs?
>>
>> Mike
>
>i don't know if he kicked the bucket or not.
>i have "Men are not Ants" (or Aunts) 1960 [the year i was conceived] and
>"Freud and Man's Soul" 1982 on my shelf.
>
>race
>
>Yes, he was in a nursing home in Maryland when he decided to chuck
everything and commit suicide. A brother of a young child put in
Bettelheim's control in the sixties wrote an angry book suggesting
the concentration camp survivor was a secret sadist who beat children
and ran his supposedly enlightened children's institute like Dickens'
blacking factory with a torture chamber overlay. I heard the guy
on public radio. Bettelheim was dead of plastic bag over the head
and sleeping pills, but the Brother was still angry at the treatment
of his younger brother, and the arrogance he had encountered while
visiting the author of a book about the use of Fairytales in child
rearing, at the children's institute in Chicago. It developed that
Bettelheim had also lied about his academic credentials and was
something of a fraud. I saw Bettelheim on Dick Cavett years ago
talking about the Fairy Tale book.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:13:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: another newcomer...
In-Reply-To: <34B542AD.62BC5709@doane.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
What school do you go to? Just curious...
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Jodie R Gardner wrote:
> Hey everybody, this is my second day as a recipient of this list and so far
> I think that it is a wonderful thing. The reason that I got into all of
> this Beat Culture is because of a college course that I am taking. My class
> is called "America Once Magik" and is a wonderful opportunity to learn about
> jazz, poetry, literature, and most importantly, the lives and minds of
> people as great as Kerouac and Ginsberg. Anyway, I really enjoy this list
> and some of the information has been really helpful in understanding things
> in class. Thanks!
>
> *jodie*
>
> "Those who can't find anything to live for
> always invent something to die for.
>
> Then they want the rest of us to
> die for it, too."
>
> - Lew Whelch
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:03:17 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jodie R Gardner <JGardner@DOANE.EDU>
Subject: Re: another newcomer...
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I attend Doane College, in Nebraska. I do believe that the only reason that
this
class is offered is because it is something that is very important to my
professor. My professor plays jazz and reads Beat literature for fun, because
he
believes in it, not because it is his job to teach it. As a matter of fact, his
job is to teach Philosophy and Ethics. The class is so open and I love it more
than any other class I have taken thus far. Thanks for asking.
Oh, by the way, our text book is "The Portable Beat Reader" and it contains many
examples from the greatest writers. If anyone has some great quotes that they
strongly feel and believe in send them on to me and I can find some great uses
for
them.
*jodie*
"You can't fix it. You can't make it go away.
I don't know what you're going to do about it,
But I know what I'm going to do about it. I'm just
going to walk away from it. Maybe
A small part of it will die if I'm not around
feeding it anymore."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:09:50 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jodie R Gardner <JGardner@DOANE.EDU>
Subject: Your comments please??
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This is a poem that I have to read in class. Please give me your
comments on whether you think this poem is crap or not, I can't decide
whether to use this one or a different one that I have written.
"lost within"
We occur and then vanish
without a second look
The chains that surround us
are by our own design
We built the empire
that closes in around us
Our creation is now so strong
and can no way be destroyed
Our actions developed evil
these demons we must now accept
The structures that withhold us
are merely what's inside
- Jodie R.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:51:11 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
Content-Type: text/plain
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Thu Jan 8 09:04:23 1998
>Received: from listserv (128.228.100.10) by listserv.cuny.edu (LSMTP
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>Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:41:40 -0800
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: Laurie Hutchinson <laurel555@YAHOO.COM>
>Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Would you really wish that fate on anyone???
>Laurel
>
>
>
>---Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU> wrote:
>>
>> jo grant wrote:
>>
>> > Anyone know if Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich skies?
>> >
>> > j grant
>>
>> We should be so lucky. If I come across either of them on the
>slopes,
>> I'll be sure to direct them toward the trees.
>>
>> -E
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
a death after spending a life involved in contraversy after
contraversy, drugs, illegal acts, and politics? yes. i wouldn't want to
live like that.... not to mention the other guy...sony bono...
*wicked smirk*
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:52:39 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
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>From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>>jo grant wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone know if Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich skies?
>>>
>>> j grant
>>
>>We should be so lucky. If I come across either of them on the
slopes,
>>I'll be sure to direct them toward the trees.
>>
>>-E
>
>You guys sound just like those mean spirited republicans I always hear
about.
>
>Just because Helms and Gingrich are too liberal for you you act like
you
>want them to die.
>
>You right wingers need to grow up.
>
wait...
gingrich is liberal?
check again...
-julian
______________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:59:16 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: My first time
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>From: "James F. Wood 253-7886" <WOODJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU>
>Subject: My first time
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Hi this is my first time on here so take it easy with me. i am not
really a
>Beat more of an Old hippie and a Vietnam vet. ok flame me if you want,
what
>the hell i can always leave and go to the local VFw and get drunk and
>forget it all.
>
>Just hanging around for a while
>Jim"The old Hippie"
>
*extending hand*
well met my friend
-julian
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Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:08:54 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: another newcomer...
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>From: Jodie R Gardner <JGardner@DOANE.EDU>
>Subject: Re: another newcomer...
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>I attend Doane College, in Nebraska. I do believe that the only reason
that
> this
>class is offered is because it is something that is very important to
my
>professor. My professor plays jazz and reads Beat literature for fun,
because
> he
>believes in it, not because it is his job to teach it. As a matter of
fact, his
>job is to teach Philosophy and Ethics. The class is so open and I love
it more
>than any other class I have taken thus far. Thanks for asking.
>Oh, by the way, our text book is "The Portable Beat Reader" and it
contains many
>examples from the greatest writers. If anyone has some great quotes
that they
>strongly feel and believe in send them on to me and I can find some
great uses
> for
>them.
>
>*jodie*
>
>"You can't fix it. You can't make it go away.
> I don't know what you're going to do about it,
>But I know what I'm going to do about it. I'm just
> going to walk away from it. Maybe
>A small part of it will die if I'm not around
>
> feeding it anymore."
>
jodie...
go to my homepage..i have a lot of quotes there...
even a few of my own making...
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/Solace
ignore all the rest...i haven't had time to change it all since i've
changed my mind on some of the topics i had fervently attested to in the
past...
-julian
______________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:39:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: BRUNO (was Re: Stone on Kerouac
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:05 PM 1/8/98 -0500, Mike Rice wrote:
>It developed that Bettelheim had also lied about
>his academic credentials and was something of a
>fraud. I saw Bettelheim on Dick Cavett years ago
>talking about the Fairy Tale book.
_The Empty Fortress_ has always been a book I've
had to read with a "pound" of salt. The statement,
"my belief that the precipitating factor in infantile
autism is the parent's wish that his child should
not exist (Bettelheim, 1967)" has led me to refer
to him as "Brutal" Bettelheim.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:53:30 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jodie R Gardner <JGardner@DOANE.EDU>
Subject: Re: another newcomer...
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Julian : Thanks for the info! You are the greatest!
*jodie*
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:42:56 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: list postings
Just a reminder to everyone that if you snip or summarize a long message
rather than repeat it, it saves all of us a little time. Also, it's
important to check the subject header to make sure that the message
you're posting is indeed aboutthe subject listed in the header.
Listmembers should be able to look at the subject header and delete
those threads that have on interest for them. If you look at thread
that says Coppola's On The Road and the message turns out to be about
the Titanic, it can give you a real sinking feeling. (Sorry, I couldn't
resist.)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:30:51 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: Re: life in the communes
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ksenija
ps. did you know that the little mermaid in coppenhagen had her head
severed off two days ago?
Do you mean to say that you think of our poor headless mermaid as a BEAT ???
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:04:40 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: life in the communes
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In a message dated 1/8/98 1:43:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET writes:
<< Get real, Ksenija, you can't go postal unless you ARE a postal worker.
Arming yourself and going to your PO Box won't do. Its the bureaucracy
and frustration of working for the Post Office, that leads to the
smashups in the backroom at the PO. We just had a great one in Milwaukee
a few weeks ago. The only more likely place for gunplay is McDonalds,
but if Burger King keeps improving its sandwiches, the franchise could
switch there any day. >>
Mike,
Don't hang that rap on Ksenija, I posted thoughts of going postal after
reading his newsflash. BTW, does "getting Medieval on your ass" mean that I
have to pour boiling oil on you from the battlements, or has the meaning
become more generalized with years of usage?
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:46:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Ginsberg in America
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
At the bookstore tonight and while purchasing the Knights' _Kerouac & the
Beats_ the assistant showed me this new book by Jan Kramer (I think).
>From flipping through, it looks like a biography of sorts. Does anyone
out there know anything about this book? Schtick? Good/bad? It seems to
be just published, though it is a mostly remainder book store so new is
always relative.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:48:26 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Ginsberg in America
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this is my first post to a listserv group, so i hope i'm doing this ok.
please let me know if somethings amiss.
'ginsberg in america' by jane kramer was, i think the first beat bio,
done in 68
jan kramer, as i recall wrote a couple of post beat slice of life books
in the late 60s early 70s, but i only recall looking thru them at a
bookstore
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:53:59 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: neal cassady
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i've been working for several years on a biography of neal cassady and
am interested in hearing from anyone who knew mr cassady.
thanks
tom christopher
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 00:32:08 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Comments: To: "L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8c)"
<LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8c) wrote:
>
> The distribution of your message dated Thu, 08 Jan 1998 17:06:12 -0600
with
> subject "C.I.A." has been rejected because you have exceeded the daily
per-user
> message limit for the BEAT-L list. Other than the list owner, no one is
allowed
> to post more than 10 messages per day. Please resend your message at a
later
> time if you still want it to be posted to the list.
>
> ------------------------ Rejected message (24 lines)
--------------------------
> Return-Path: <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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> Received: from mail.midusa.net by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP;
> Thu, 08 Jan 98 18:08:46 EST
> Received: from services.midusa.net (node29.salina.midusa.net [206.28.169.29])
> by mail.midusa.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25210
> for <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:18:54 -0600 (CST)
> Message-ID: <34B55BE4.7703@midusa.net>
> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 17:06:12 -0600
> From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@midusa.net>
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: Beat-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Subject: C.I.A.
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>
> more propaganda about the Creative Intelligence Agency and Cocaine can
> be found at my pal postmodern Ben's Website
> <http://speech.csun.edu/ben/news/cia/index.html>. it was apparently
> just updated today as i got the memo from the soft machine.
>
> snailpace
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 00:53:11 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Quizzical
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M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> At 05:05 PM 1/8/98 -0500, Mike Rice wrote:
>
> >It developed that Bettelheim had also lied about
> >his academic credentials and was something of a
> >fraud. I saw Bettelheim on Dick Cavett years ago
> >talking about the Fairy Tale book.
>
> _The Empty Fortress_ has always been a book I've
> had to read with a "pound" of salt. The statement,
> "my belief that the precipitating factor in infantile
> autism is the parent's wish that his child should
> not exist (Bettelheim, 1967)" has led me to refer
> to him as "Brutal" Bettelheim.
>
> Mike
I must admit that the Beatific/Brutality difficulty in BB's work is
difficult it is best read listening to BB King.
i also must admit that i've "Accidentally<smile>" altered B.G.S. degree
to B.A. degree on a resume here or there. And i rarely include my time
as Presbyterian Word Processor for Rolling Hills Pres in Johnson County
Kansas. And the time as back-up janitor and LAWNMOWER boy at SUNRISE
PRESBY are almost always lies of omission as well. The truth will set
you free but it won't necessarily destroy Barry Commoner's POVERTY OF
POWER notions concerning of the SECOND LAW of THERMODYNAMICS (especially
when watching WCWNITRO on TNT or THUNDER on TBS.
well enough admissions back to watching space jam and reviewing a
discussion of EITHER/OR in questions of competitiveness from my Days at
AUGUSTANA under NOW DEAN SNOWBALL (same dude as in ANIMAL FARM guys!)
LaterGator
spacey racey
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:39:58 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Marie
In-Reply-To: <34B478D5.72B8@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Bigsurs4me wrote:
>>
>> Hello Johan,
>>
>> It's sunny and clear here in Northern California and Marie Countryman is
>>ready
>> to do a reading in 'Frisco! My wife and I enjoyed a pre-performance run
>> through the other night and enjoyed it immensely!
Hey Marie,
A poem for all.
And break a skylight.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:35:25 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: THE BALLAD OF IRA HAYES
Comments: cc: Sam and Beth Stevens <sbstevens@mcione.com>, racy@primenet.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
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it has a beat
does anybody know the lyrics?
does anybody know WHO allegedly wrote it?
does anybody know WHICH BEAT WRITER ACTUALLY WROTE IT?
is it true it was written in Mary's Vineyard outside EUGENE OREGON?
trivia questions?
pandur
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:42:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: For Boston-area Beats!
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980107212736.006bd8e4@pop.pipeline.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>If you're in the Boston Area tonight, broadcasting from Boston University,
>(WBOR at 90.9 FM) there is an hour-long interview with David Amram and John
>Suiter about Jack Kerouac. Check it out if you can! The Kerouac Quarterly
>will highlight parts of the interview on the web page in the near future.
>
>
> http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
> Take care, Paul of TKQ....
>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
Arrived at this late, but I think it's WBUR. Or at least it was....
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:41:42 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Marie IN TRIUMPH
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As the first one back to my computer I am glad to report that Marie read
wonderfully and the entire list should be proud of her. Those of us lucky
enough to be there also got to hear some wonderful reading by QR Hand.
Thanks to Leon himself for making the whole thing happen.
Jame Stauffer
Leon Tabory wrote:
> If you have missed James' post and wonder about this, marie countryman will
> read her poetry tonight 7 - 9 pm at the
>
> Polk and Beans Cafe
> 1733 Polk Street, San Francisco
> 415-776-9292
>
> Sherri, James, Jim Gardner, myself and my good friend San Francisco poet
> Q.R. Hand will be there. His reading of marie's Psycho-Bureaucratic Rant
> rendered into jazz had us all spellbound.
>
> Here is marie:
>
> i'll be reading the lastest and last version of In Somnia, which qr hand was
> most helpful in a short afternoon of readings and writings. i'll be glad to
> post the new version on the list after i return home.
> looks like it's going to be a lot of fun!
> mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:44:57 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: THE BALLAD OF IRA HAYES
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Well Pandur,
You got me, and I lived in Eugene for years.
James Stauffer
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> it has a beat
>
> does anybody know the lyrics?
> does anybody know WHO allegedly wrote it?
> does anybody know WHICH BEAT WRITER ACTUALLY WROTE IT?
> is it true it was written in Mary's Vineyard outside EUGENE OREGON?
>
> trivia questions?
>
> pandur
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 02:44:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: BREAKTHROUGHS (was Re: Marie)
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jo grant wrote:
>
> >Bigsurs4me wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello Johan,
> >>
> >> It's sunny and clear here in Northern California and Marie Countryman is
> >>ready
> >> to do a reading in 'Frisco! My wife and I enjoyed a pre-performance run
> >> through the other night and enjoyed it immensely!
>
> Hey Marie,
> A poem for all.
> And break a skylight.
> j grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
NO BREAKING if its is a GREY ROOM!
NO BREAKING if it is a GRAY ROM
And i heard a rumour that the own of the establishment was gonna collect
the FIRE INSURANCE this evening. The SFARSONSQUAD IS ON ALERT.
pandur
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:01:32 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: my 15 minutes
Content-Type: text/plain
hey everyone: it was a great evening, with local and beloved it seems to
many (including me) QR Hand read some of his work and it was great. my
reading went well: i was geared up for the newest version of 'insomnia
quartet' and that read quite well. the audience certainly did not hurt,
as it included leon, without whom it would not have happened at all, and
by sherri and james, who i have come to know and like very much. and QR
as well.
it's tired and my mind is fried.
more to come
thanks for all comments, good thoughts, and cheerleading! it all helped.
mc
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:47:26 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: my 15 minutes
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marie countyman wrote:
>
> hey everyone: it was a great evening, with local and beloved it seems to
> many (including me) QR Hand read some of his work and it was great. my
> reading went well: i was geared up for the newest version of 'insomnia
> quartet' and that read quite well. the audience certainly did not hurt,
> as it included leon, without whom it would not have happened at all, and
> by sherri and james, who i have come to know and like very much. and QR
> as well.
> it's tired and my mind is fried.
> more to come
> thanks for all comments, good thoughts, and cheerleading! it all helped.
> mc
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I heard GEORGE WILL is gonna PAN U'R PERFORMANCE BIG TIME!!!!!!
citizen caine
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 05:41:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: THE BALLAD OF IRA HAYES
In-Reply-To: <34B5D33D.7D75@midusa.net>
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At 01:35 AM 1/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>it has a beat
>
>does anybody know the lyrics?
>does anybody know WHO allegedly wrote it?
>does anybody know WHICH BEAT WRITER ACTUALLY WROTE IT?
>is it true it was written in Mary's Vineyard outside EUGENE OREGON?
>
>trivia questions?
>
>pandur
>
>
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He don't answer anymore
Not the Whiskey-drinkin' indian
nor the marine that went to war
Thats the chorus, the version I get this from
is Johnny Cash's version on the back of which
is an even greater song, "Bad News."
Bad News Travels Like Wildfire,
Good News travels slow,
they all call me wildfire,
'cause everybody knows,
that I'm Bad News,
Everywhere I go.
Always Gettin' in trouble
and hurtin' little girls that hate to see me go!
(hurtin' might be cheatin')
There is a lot of Cash voice-over in the
version which came along about the same time as
a film about Hayes, starring Tony Curtis, in 1965;
I think the film was called The Outsider
"He died drunk in a ditch one night,
a whiskey soaked gully a grave for Ira Hayes."
(This last line is not for sure, close though)
The Ira Hayes song is laced with melodramatic
pathos. My friends and I used to sing it out
loud for laughs, because the lyrics are
beyond belief.
Mike Rice
Would anyone be interested in Larry Verne's
Please Mr. Custer!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 05:01:48 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: THE BALLAD OF IRA HAYES
MIME-Version: 1.0
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mike rice wrote:
>
> At 01:35 AM 1/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >it has a beat
> >
> >does anybody know the lyrics?
> >does anybody know WHO allegedly wrote it?
> >does anybody know WHICH BEAT WRITER ACTUALLY WROTE IT?
> >is it true it was written in Mary's Vineyard outside EUGENE OREGON?
> >
> >trivia questions?
> >
> >pandur
> >
> >
>
> Call him drunken Ira Hayes
> He don't answer anymore
> Not the Whiskey-drinkin' indian
> nor the marine that went to war
>
> Thats the chorus, the version I get this from
> is Johnny Cash's version on the back of which
> is an even greater song, "Bad News."
>
> Bad News Travels Like Wildfire,
> Good News travels slow,
> they all call me wildfire,
> 'cause everybody knows,
> that I'm Bad News,
> Everywhere I go.
> Always Gettin' in trouble
> and hurtin' little girls that hate to see me go!
> (hurtin' might be cheatin')
>
> There is a lot of Cash voice-over in the
> version which came along about the same time as
> a film about Hayes, starring Tony Curtis, in 1965;
> I think the film was called The Outsider
>
> "He died drunk in a ditch one night,
> a whiskey soaked gully a grave for Ira Hayes."
>
> (This last line is not for sure, close though)
>
> The Ira Hayes song is laced with melodramatic
> pathos. My friends and I used to sing it out
> loud for laughs, because the lyrics are
> beyond belief.
>
> Mike Rice
>
> Would anyone be interested in Larry Verne's
> Please Mr. Custer!
AH!
BUT:
Dylan's Version on Columbia uses INJUN rather than Indian. There are
two theories in this regard. One is that he was influenced by the
railroad ENGINE imagery misting off Kerouac's GRAVE, the other is that
he was trying to provide a link to INJUN JO in MARK TWAIN'S TOM SAWYER.
Nobody knows for sure.
Huck Finn watching my WAKE
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 05:04:31 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: my 15 minutes
Comments: To: Gibson <rgibson@prairienet.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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marie countyman wrote:
>
> hey everyone: it was a great evening, with local and beloved it seems to
> many (including me) QR Hand read some of his work and it was great. my
> reading went well: i was geared up for the newest version of 'insomnia
> quartet' and that read quite well. the audience certainly did not hurt,
> as it included leon, without whom it would not have happened at all, and
> by sherri and james, who i have come to know and like very much. and QR
> as well.
> it's tired and my mind is fried.
> more to come
> thanks for all comments, good thoughts, and cheerleading! it all helped.
> mc
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
More seriously MARIE. It is wonderful in my view for someone named
Country Man named MARIE to get a GREAT GIG. As we all sing sometimes in
the Elevators from GOODNIGHT IRENE, "Sometimes I LIVE IN THE CUNT-TREE
SOMETIMES I LIVE IN TOWN SOMETIMES I GET A GREAT NOTION TO JUMP IN a
lake.
d
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 06:15:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Quizzical
In-Reply-To: <34B5C957.6BF7@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 12:53 AM 1/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>M. Cakebread wrote:
>>
>> At 05:05 PM 1/8/98 -0500, Mike Rice wrote:
>>
>> >It developed that Bettelheim had also lied about
>> >his academic credentials and was something of a
>> >fraud. I saw Bettelheim on Dick Cavett years ago
>> >talking about the Fairy Tale book.
>>
>> _The Empty Fortress_ has always been a book I've
>> had to read with a "pound" of salt. The statement,
>> "my belief that the precipitating factor in infantile
>> autism is the parent's wish that his child should
>> not exist (Bettelheim, 1967)" has led me to refer
>> to him as "Brutal" Bettelheim.
>>
>> Mike
>
>I must admit that the Beatific/Brutality difficulty in BB's work is
>difficult it is best read listening to BB King.
>
>i also must admit that i've "Accidentally<smile>" altered B.G.S. degree
>to B.A. degree on a resume here or there. And i rarely include my time
>as Presbyterian Word Processor for Rolling Hills Pres in Johnson County
>Kansas. And the time as back-up janitor and LAWNMOWER boy at SUNRISE
>PRESBY are almost always lies of omission as well. The truth will set
>you free but it won't necessarily destroy Barry Commoner's POVERTY OF
>POWER notions concerning of the SECOND LAW of THERMODYNAMICS (especially
>when watching WCWNITRO on TNT or THUNDER on TBS.
>
>well enough admissions back to watching space jam and reviewing a
>discussion of EITHER/OR in questions of competitiveness from my Days at
>AUGUSTANA under NOW DEAN SNOWBALL (same dude as in ANIMAL FARM guys!)
>
>LaterGator
>spacey racey
>
>
Well, you know I use to empty the wastebaskets at a downtown
business, and made beds for the Officer's Valet Service at
nearby Ft. McCoy, before spending time as a beertender and
gas jockey, all before age 20.
Its alright with me on the condition you didn't carve that
b.g.s. from a GED in the first place, before you then
transformed it into a b.s. What the hell does b.g.s. stand
for, anyway, bag of gas.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 05:19:41 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Quizzical
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mike rice wrote:
>
> At 12:53 AM 1/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >M. Cakebread wrote:
> >>
> >> At 05:05 PM 1/8/98 -0500, Mike Rice wrote:
> >>
> >> >It developed that Bettelheim had also lied about
> >> >his academic credentials and was something of a
> >> >fraud. I saw Bettelheim on Dick Cavett years ago
> >> >talking about the Fairy Tale book.
> >>
> >> _The Empty Fortress_ has always been a book I've
> >> had to read with a "pound" of salt. The statement,
> >> "my belief that the precipitating factor in infantile
> >> autism is the parent's wish that his child should
> >> not exist (Bettelheim, 1967)" has led me to refer
> >> to him as "Brutal" Bettelheim.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >
> >I must admit that the Beatific/Brutality difficulty in BB's work is
> >difficult it is best read listening to BB King.
> >
> >i also must admit that i've "Accidentally<smile>" altered B.G.S. degree
> >to B.A. degree on a resume here or there. And i rarely include my time
> >as Presbyterian Word Processor for Rolling Hills Pres in Johnson County
> >Kansas. And the time as back-up janitor and LAWNMOWER boy at SUNRISE
> >PRESBY are almost always lies of omission as well. The truth will set
> >you free but it won't necessarily destroy Barry Commoner's POVERTY OF
> >POWER notions concerning of the SECOND LAW of THERMODYNAMICS (especially
> >when watching WCWNITRO on TNT or THUNDER on TBS.
> >
> >well enough admissions back to watching space jam and reviewing a
> >discussion of EITHER/OR in questions of competitiveness from my Days at
> >AUGUSTANA under NOW DEAN SNOWBALL (same dude as in ANIMAL FARM guys!)
> >
> >LaterGator
> >spacey racey
> >
> >
> Well, you know I use to empty the wastebaskets at a downtown
> business, and made beds for the Officer's Valet Service at
> nearby Ft. McCoy, before spending time as a beertender and
> gas jockey, all before age 20.
>
> Its alright with me on the condition you didn't carve that
> b.g.s. from a GED in the first place, before you then
> transformed it into a b.s. What the hell does b.g.s. stand
> for, anyway, bag of gas.
>
> Mike Rice
bachelor of general studies searching for a practically purrrrfect MATE!
DR
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:32:04 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Johan Gotthardt Olsen <johan@DARWIN.KI.KU.DK>
Subject: Enter: The Big Drool
In-Reply-To: <19980108184046.10530.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Julian Ruck" at
Jan 8, 98 10:40:36 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In 'comment' to Julian's "un-thaw" aversions.
In the center of Copenhagen is this walking street and the stones
there feel nice to walk on on summer nights from one bar to another
and you have all the space you want, feels that way - but during the
day the street is so full of people and reading your letter made me
remember them and see them (don't yell at me with accusations of
unjust generalisations, you know... aheam, well:) walk, bobbling or
jerky, out of control (if you'll pardon me the expression) and I am
sickeningly aware of the feeling of touching the deep, white sock
marks and knowing about their sweaty, lazy, sleeping crotch makes me
tear my skin off or something and the REASON for all this distress and
arrogance on my part is that at the same time I want to wrap my arms
around each and every one and say "wooo, it's ok, it's ok..... there,
there, I love you and it's true and tell me about the dreams you had
when you were 15, 16.... tell me about where it went wrong, where your
hopes became such a joke, we both know hope, don't we!".
They found the head, the mermaid head, by the way.
Johan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 06:49:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: my 15 minutes
In-Reply-To: <34B5F22E.3AAF@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 03:47 AM 1/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>marie countyman wrote:
>>
>> hey everyone: it was a great evening, with local and beloved it seems to
>> many (including me) QR Hand read some of his work and it was great. my
>> reading went well: i was geared up for the newest version of 'insomnia
>> quartet' and that read quite well. the audience certainly did not hurt,
>> as it included leon, without whom it would not have happened at all, and
>> by sherri and james, who i have come to know and like very much. and QR
>> as well.
>> it's tired and my mind is fried.
>> more to come
>> thanks for all comments, good thoughts, and cheerleading! it all helped.
>> mc
>>
>> ______________________________________________________
>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>I heard GEORGE WILL is gonna PAN U'R PERFORMANCE BIG TIME!!!!!!
>
>citizen caine
>
>
"And the tow rope. I would have proved it beyond a shadow of
a doubt if they hadn't pulled the Caine out of action. The
strawberries in the wardroom were a reality . When the crew
began to talk behind my back, that's when someone carelessly left
the tow rope attached.., And old yellowstains, they called me that...,
Of course, trying to remember these matters from memory is difficult.
If you have questions, I'll try to answer them one by one."
John Foster Caine
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 06:56:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: THE BALLAD OF IRA HAYES
In-Reply-To: <34B6039C.45F8@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:01 AM 1/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>mike rice wrote:
>>
>> At 01:35 AM 1/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> >it has a beat
>> >
>> >does anybody know the lyrics?
>> >does anybody know WHO allegedly wrote it?
>> >does anybody know WHICH BEAT WRITER ACTUALLY WROTE IT?
>> >is it true it was written in Mary's Vineyard outside EUGENE OREGON?
>> >
>> >trivia questions?
>> >
>> >pandur
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Call him drunken Ira Hayes
>> He don't answer anymore
>> Not the Whiskey-drinkin' indian
>> nor the marine that went to war
>>
>> Thats the chorus, the version I get this from
>> is Johnny Cash's version on the back of which
>> is an even greater song, "Bad News."
>>
>> Bad News Travels Like Wildfire,
>> Good News travels slow,
>> they all call me wildfire,
>> 'cause everybody knows,
>> that I'm Bad News,
>> Everywhere I go.
>> Always Gettin' in trouble
>> and hurtin' little girls that hate to see me go!
>> (hurtin' might be cheatin')
>>
>> There is a lot of Cash voice-over in the
>> version which came along about the same time as
>> a film about Hayes, starring Tony Curtis, in 1965;
>> I think the film was called The Outsider
>>
>> "He died drunk in a ditch one night,
>> a whiskey soaked gully a grave for Ira Hayes."
>>
>> (This last line is not for sure, close though)
>>
>> The Ira Hayes song is laced with melodramatic
>> pathos. My friends and I used to sing it out
>> loud for laughs, because the lyrics are
>> beyond belief.
>>
>> Mike Rice
>>
>> Would anyone be interested in Larry Verne's
>> Please Mr. Custer!
>
>AH!
>BUT:
>Dylan's Version on Columbia uses INJUN rather than Indian. There are
>two theories in this regard. One is that he was influenced by the
>railroad ENGINE imagery misting off Kerouac's GRAVE, the other is that
>he was trying to provide a link to INJUN JO in MARK TWAIN'S TOM SAWYER.
>Nobody knows for sure.
>
>Huck Finn watching my WAKE
>
>
My own favorite reading of Indian is Dustin Hoffman's "Indun'"
from Little Big Man. You'll recall he was, among others, the
last survavin' member of the Battle of Little Big Horn.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:21:27 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "James F. Wood 253-7886" <WOODJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU>
Subject: Thanks for welcome
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Thanks to all for the warm welcome, I feel at home already. I am a
librarian and professor of Philosophy and Religion. Really got into the
hippie movement about 5 years ago, back when it was hip to be a hippie, i
as a nerd and also had to deal with Nam for a few years. Then off to
college where long hairs were not welcome with open arms. So aboout 5 years
ago after 25 years of marriage and a divorce i started my hippie route, YES
I do have long hair down usually in a pony tail but some times i let it all
hang down.
Thanks for the welcome
PEACE and LOve to all
Jim "An old Hippie"
woodj@mail.firn.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 07:58:33 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: my 15 minutes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mike rice wrote:
>
> At 03:47 AM 1/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >marie countyman wrote:
> >>
> >> hey everyone: it was a great evening, with local and beloved it seems to
> >> many (including me) QR Hand read some of his work and it was great. my
> >> reading went well: i was geared up for the newest version of 'insomnia
> >> quartet' and that read quite well. the audience certainly did not hurt,
> >> as it included leon, without whom it would not have happened at all, and
> >> by sherri and james, who i have come to know and like very much. and QR
> >> as well.
> >> it's tired and my mind is fried.
> >> more to come
> >> thanks for all comments, good thoughts, and cheerleading! it all helped.
> >> mc
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________
> >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >I heard GEORGE WILL is gonna PAN U'R PERFORMANCE BIG TIME!!!!!!
> >
> >citizen caine
> >
> >
> "And the tow rope. I would have proved it beyond a shadow of
> a doubt if they hadn't pulled the Caine out of action. The
> strawberries in the wardroom were a reality . When the crew
> began to talk behind my back, that's when someone carelessly left
> the tow rope attached.., And old yellowstains, they called me that...,
>
> Of course, trying to remember these matters from memory is difficult.
> If you have questions, I'll try to answer them one by one."
>
> John Foster Caine
rumor has it that George Will believes the LAST WORDS of CITIZEN KANE
were from baseball jargon: rosin. However, anyone with an ounce of
intelligence know Orson Welles said "RAISIN" (and a WELCHES GRAPE
SHOOTER)
david bruce rhaesa
copyright
7:59 am
01-09-1998 ADDABCCBCEECLESSIASTES
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 06:15:54 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Laurie Hutchinson <laurel555@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
i'm not standing up for them in any sense of the word, that fate just
seems a bit harsh.
---Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> >From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Thu Jan 8 09:04:23 1998
> >Received: from listserv (128.228.100.10) by listserv.cuny.edu (LSMTP
> for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.DC95ACD0@listserv.cuny.edu>;
Thu,
> 8 Jan 1998 11:52:14 -0500
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> >Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:41:40 -0800
> >Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> >Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> >From: Laurie Hutchinson <laurel555@YAHOO.COM>
> >Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
> >To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> >
> >Would you really wish that fate on anyone???
> >Laurel
> >
> >
> >
> >---Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU> wrote:
> >>
> >> jo grant wrote:
> >>
> >> > Anyone know if Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich skies?
> >> >
> >> > j grant
> >>
> >> We should be so lucky. If I come across either of them on the
> >slopes,
> >> I'll be sure to direct them toward the trees.
> >>
> >> -E
> >>
> >
> >_________________________________________________________
> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> a death after spending a life involved in contraversy after
> contraversy, drugs, illegal acts, and politics? yes. i wouldn't want
to
> live like that.... not to mention the other guy...sony bono...
> *wicked smirk*
> -julian
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:20:53 +0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: XD Wang <xdwang@PUBLIC.HF.AH.CN>
Subject: help me
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312"
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Hi,All writer:
Who can get me that address of history mailing list?
Thank you!
XD Wang
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:43:09 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
Content-Type: text/plain
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Fri Jan 9 06:25:06 1998
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>From: Laurie Hutchinson <laurel555@YAHOO.COM>
>Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>i'm not standing up for them in any sense of the word, that fate just
>seems a bit harsh.
>
>
>
> Pardon me for being cynical for a moment...
but we all die.. and i can think of a lot less funny and harsher ways
to die than running into a tree skiing.
i certainly know if i died in a funny way (for instance, dying on a
luxury cruise, in the middle of a huge ocean...by drowning in the little
pool on board)i wouldn't mind at all if people got a few minutes of
perverse pleasure out of laughing...
if its one thing i don't like, please do not take offense, is when
people get too serious when things are supposed to be funny...
it may be wrong to luagh at their deaths... but i'm laughing at their
lives too...
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:36:52 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: a real treat
well, gotta say that last night was a real treat. our little band of
beat-lers getting together and listening to Marie read her marvelous poetry.
she read well and was clearly very appreciated by those beyond our little
circle of admirers. felt very lucky to have been there.
and QR Hand was a special bonus - a true poet and great reader.
thanks Marie - you got it, girl+ACE-
ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:10:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: THE BALLAD OF IRA HAYES
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:35 AM 1/9/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>does anybody know WHO allegedly wrote it?
P. LaFarge wrote it, everyone sings it. . .
Townes Van Zandt's version is one of my fave's.
Dylan's is ok, I guess. Motley Crue's version
is by far the best!!
Motorcyle Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:13:19 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: my 15 minutes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 03:47 AM 1/9/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>I heard GEORGE WILL is gonna PAN U'R PERFORMANCE
>BIG TIME!!!!!!
>
>citizen caine
ROSEBUD!?!?!?!?!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:13:00 PST
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From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Marie
Content-Type: text/plain
thanks, jo: it was a blast, i felt good and i believe the audience did
too..
mc
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Thu Jan 8 23:36:38 1998
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>Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:39:58 -0500
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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>From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
>Subject: Re: Marie
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>In-Reply-To: <34B478D5.72B8@midusa.net>
>
>>Bigsurs4me wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Johan,
>>>
>>> It's sunny and clear here in Northern California and Marie
Countryman is
>>>ready
>>> to do a reading in 'Frisco! My wife and I enjoyed a pre-performance
run
>>> through the other night and enjoyed it immensely!
>
>Hey Marie,
>A poem for all.
>And break a skylight.
>j grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:17:34 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: my 15 minutes
Content-Type: text/plain
aggghhhhh! not george will!!!!
mc
?
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Fri Jan 9 01:51:13 1998
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>Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:47:26 -0600
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
>Subject: Re: my 15 minutes
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>marie countyman wrote:
>>
>> hey everyone: it was a great evening, with local and beloved it seems
to
>> many (including me) QR Hand read some of his work and it was great.
my
>> reading went well: i was geared up for the newest version of
'insomnia
>> quartet' and that read quite well. the audience certainly did not
hurt,
>> as it included leon, without whom it would not have happened at all,
and
>> by sherri and james, who i have come to know and like very much. and
QR
>> as well.
>> it's tired and my mind is fried.
>> more to come
>> thanks for all comments, good thoughts, and cheerleading! it all
helped.
>> mc
>>
>> ______________________________________________________
>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>I heard GEORGE WILL is gonna PAN U'R PERFORMANCE BIG TIME!!!!!!
>
>citizen caine
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:21:46 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: a real treat
Content-Type: text/plain
>Subject: a real treat
sherri it was a real treat to have you all there cheering me on, and for
the reminder that we were in the presence of a powerful poet QR Hand, a
gentle man with a great soul and a great, musical reader.
it was as much a treat for me as anyone else in the place.
mc
>>well, gotta say that last night was a real treat. our little band of
>beat-lers getting together and listening to Marie read her marvelous
poetry.
>she read well and was clearly very appreciated by those beyond our
little
>circle of admirers. felt very lucky to have been there.
>
>and QR Hand was a special bonus - a true poet and great reader.
>
>thanks Marie - you got it, girl+ACE-
>
>ciao, sherri
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:37:52 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs, Wittgenstein
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980107202352.570815195B-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> (& BTW, there's still a lot of W's writings not yet published....yet
> another "estate" controversy)
And presumably another archive that is going to be allowed to be reclused
from open study, to languish and deteriorate. :/
Someone sometime on this list said that all writers should take care to
make clear the _exact_ terms of their desires for disposition of their
literary estate. Very true. Do we really need to waste precious time of
life in "Jack [or Bill or Allen] woulda WANTED it this way" arguments?
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Find out the laws then do what you will.
- Susannah Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:55:26 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: sliced writings ("Ciao, Alice")
In-Reply-To: <34B43FB9.9EF31BDD@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(...)
Alice si mise in testa non soltanto di vivere
ma di pubblicare quegli inediti senza toccare la collezione
dei quadri. Uso' tutto il denaro che le restava-non molto,
dopo la malattia di Gertrude-e accetto' di pubblicare su
riviste di grande tiratura articoli di cucina, a condizione
che le venissero retribuiti con generosita'. Gli articoli
ebbero un tale successo che un editore la invito' a comporre
un vero e proprio volume di ricette; e Alice lo scrisse un
po' sotto forma di pettegolezzo, facendosi mandare da tutti
gli amici le loro ricette preferite.
Tremo al pensiero delle ricette che mi convinse a mandarle
e che naturalmente mi feci dalla ragazza tuttofare che mi nutriva
in quegli anni; ma dalle mie innocue cotolette alla pizzaiola
o pesto alla genovese o gnocchi alla romana almeno non le
derivarono guai. Invece Brion Gysin (che piu' tardi sarebbe
diventato noto attraverso il sodalizio con William Burroughs
e i loro cut-ups), o forse Paul Bowles (protagonista in seguito
di un colossale revival grazie alla riduzione cinematografica
che Bernardo Bertolucci fece del suo The Sheltering Sky) le
mando' da Tangeri la ricetta di una crema all'hashish e Alice
la pubblico' nel testo integrale, in cui veniva consigliata come
particolarmente adatta a un pomeriggio di pioggia e si precisava,
nella descrizione degli ingredienti, che si poteva facilmente
coltivare in un vasetto sul davanzale della cucina, come si
fa nei paesi meridionali con il basilico, la menta o le altre
erbe aromatiche.
Quando il libro usci', la campagna di Allen Ginsberg per
la legalizzazione della marijuana non era ancora incominciata.
Il settimanale "Time" pubblico' una recensione anticipata
segnalando la ricetta e affermando che non c'era da stupirsi
se Gertrude Stein scriveva in quel modo incomprensibile,
considerando il cibo che le somministrava Alice. Quando lesse
l'articolo, Gysin le telefono' da Tangeri, offrendosi di
modificare il testo; ma ormai era troppo tardi. L'editore
americano parlo' con il procuratore generale, e nonostante ne
ricevesse la precisazione della colpevolezza di chi compra, vende
o usa droghe ma l'innocenza di chi ne scrive, preferi' rifare
l'ultima parte del libro (nonostante fosse gia' rilegato)
sopprimendo la ricetta pericolosa. Alice si trovo', a settantotto
anni, al centro di uno scandalo forse piu' vistoso del
necessario, in un'atmosfera da Grande Inquisizione e da Rogo delle
streghe; e il settimanale "Time" pubblico' solo poche righe
della sua lettera di spiegazione.
Il fatto che i libro continuasse a circolare in Inghilterra
non evito' l'insuccesso economico del volume: il mercato che
avrebbe assorbito quelle ricette, con o senza marijuana, procurando
ad Alice un lieve sollievo economico, non era certo quello inglese.
Quando le chiesi che cosa mai le fosse venuto in mente, mi
rispose con aria offesa di non aver mai saputo, prima che si
facesse tutto quel chiasso, che la cannabis sativa e' la marijuana,
e di aver inserito la ricetta soltanto perche' le sembrava divertente.
(...)
F.P. 1965.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:58:55 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971231131902.0069521c@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> in my opinion
> the myth of the reincarnation of our own body (in flesh) and
> not trasmigrate in other beings on this planet (kharma) is a strong
> point favorauble to mother christian/catholic curch way of life
> (i think of "visions of gerard"), &(sad) the good dies young...,
Excellente, Rinaldo!
The resurrection of this particular body reenforced the sense that the
soul is an island of consciousness trapped behind a wall of flesh, hence
increasing the power of those who would save that lonely island's sole
inhabitant through providing the flightpath to the one and only Savior.
I like Buddhism better. :)
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Libertarianism is political bisexuality.
- M. Brown (libertarian)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:16:37 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Kennedy and Bono
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
the ruling cryptocracy killed sonny so they could transplant kennedy's
head onto his body
check yr local newspapers for ape head transplant and human cloning
stories this past week if you don't believe me
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:11:59 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: uh, Jim Harrison?
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Marie
I damn sure dont want to take away from your 15 mins. i think its
great!Now- about a month back I made a statement on the list that I felt that
Pound, Eliot, and Ginsberg were the greatest American Poets. I would have
included Rilke, light and fire that he was, cept he wasnt American! Anyways-
fraid I left out one of the greatest living American Poets- Jim Harrison.
I have yet to see mention of him on the List, and I dont think you can
a more Beat, Enlightened, and Intelligent Poet going today. Dont tell me about
those same ol samo acedemics guys and dolls. Boring! And dont let the Brad
Pitt hoopla over Legend of the Fall bring you down- Harrison is great!
Read the guy- he deserves our support.
Gen
e
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:49:28 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michael R. Brown wrote:
> The resurrection of this particular body reenforced the sense that the
> soul is an island of consciousness trapped behind a wall of flesh, hence
> increasing the power of those who would save that lonely island's sole
> inhabitant through providing the flightpath to the one and only Savior.
>
hunh? the soul is an island of cousciousness trapped in a wall of
flesh. neither the apostles or the church fathers had any vested
interest in the idea of power over anybody when they transmitted this
new doctrine to peoples of the first century. they gave up the comfort
of their own lives to preach a gospel that put the same limitations on
them as it did those they converted. these were people who walked with
christ, saw his miracles, and believed this new teaching because they
experianced it to be true. the roman empire of the first century was
sophisticated and literate, and while they had the same arguements
against the gospels, and preferences for philosophies that placed their
individual egos at the center of the universe, evolving into gods, or
cynical beliefs that all gods were simply the stories of men to explain
natural events and mirror the human psyche, we have only one quote from
the talmud discounting christ's divinity. nobody at the time said
'waitaminute, this didn't happen like that', and we have a portion of
the gospel of mark among the dead sea scroll fragments, sealed in a cave
in 69 ad.
if the early christians had wanted to form a big popular church, they
would've said what the people at the time wanted to hear, which is what
people want to hear now: we're all saved, we're all evolving to godhood,
we're all one. just look at tv ministers like kenneth hagan or casey
treat, or depect chopra <?sp?>, they just say what people wanna hear
> I like Buddhism better. :)
i know, who doesn't? but yer making my point. remember, buddha never
claimed to be the messiah, just a smart guy who thought himself thru the
superstition of hinduism. and there are as many irreconcilable
differences between the various forms of buddhism and their beliefs in
karma and reincarnation as there are between buddhism and christianiity.
myself, i believe in an objective consistant universe
tkc
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:52:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Kerouac Qrtly Chat Line now open!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Stop by and chat about Beat Lit, life, the weather, so long as it's nice....
The Kerouac Quarterly Chat Group is open anytime. Go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks, Paul....
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:40:40 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: uh, Jim Harrison?
Comments: To: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <5298ea41.34b67681@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I just wanted to second the vote for Jim Harrison. He's amazingly good in
any form, poetry/short fiction/novels. He even met Jack Kerouac once.
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark.
"I cannot live without books."
--Thomas Jefferson
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:38:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: main user <mparsons@PARTECHSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Your comments please??
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
----------
> From: Jodie R Gardner <JGardner@DOANE.EDU>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Your comments please??
> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:09:50 -0600
>
> This is a poem that I have to read in class. Please give me your
> comments on whether you think this poem is crap or not, I can't decide
> whether to use this one or a different one that I have written.
>
> "lost within"
>
> We occur and then vanish
> without a second look
> The chains that surround us
> are by our own design
> We built the empire
> that closes in around us
> Our creation is now so strong
> and can no way be destroyed
> Our actions developed evil
> these demons we must now accept
> The structures that withhold us
> are merely what's inside
>
> - Jodie R.
Jodie,
I really dig the pome.. I think you should read it in class... besides, if
they don't like, don't understand, or can't appreciate it, who give a damn?
critics are over rated, anyway.
yawp aways,
mick
"When I was young, I belived in God, but as I got older, it was my desire to
see God that kept me from seeing what was here on Earth"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:41:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: main user <mparsons@PARTECHSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: another newcomer...
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
----------
> From: Jodie R Gardner <JGardner@DOANE.EDU>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Re: another newcomer...
> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:03:17 -0600
>
> I attend Doane College, in Nebraska. I do believe that the only reason
that
> this
> class is offered is because it is something that is very important to my
> professor. My professor plays jazz and reads Beat literature for fun,
because
> he
> believes in it, not because it is his job to teach it. As a matter of
fact, his
> job is to teach Philosophy and Ethics. The class is so open and I love it
more
> than any other class I have taken thus far. Thanks for asking.
> Oh, by the way, our text book is "The Portable Beat Reader" and it
contains many
> examples from the greatest writers. If anyone has some great quotes that
they
> strongly feel and believe in send them on to me and I can find some great
uses
> for
> them.
>
> *jodie*
>
> "You can't fix it. You can't make it go away.
> I don't know what you're going to do about it,
> But I know what I'm going to do about it. I'm just
> going to walk away from it. Maybe
> A small part of it will die if I'm not around
>
> feeding it anymore."
jodie:
here's a couple from the grest Bill B.
"All agents defect, and all resistors sell out."
"There is one Mark you can't beat. that''s the Mark inside."
how'd the pome go over?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:04:09 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Your comments please??
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
main user wrote:
>
>
> "When I was young, I belived in God, but as I got older, it was my desire to
> see God that kept me from seeing what was here on Earth"
To paraphrase Theologian Paul Tillich, this is finding the God within
and without God.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:38:29 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980109095643.16251G-100000@global.california .com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09.58 09/01/98 -0800, Michael R. Brown wrote:
>On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
>> in my opinion
>> the myth of the reincarnation of our own body (in flesh) and
>> not trasmigrate in other beings on this planet (kharma) is a strong
>> point favorauble to mother christian/catholic curch way of life
>> (i think of "visions of gerard"), &(sad) the good dies young...,
>
>Excellente, Rinaldo!
>
>The resurrection of this particular body reenforced the sense that the
>soul is an island of consciousness trapped behind a wall of flesh, hence
>increasing the power of those who would save that lonely island's sole
>inhabitant through providing the flightpath to the one and only Savior.
>
>I like Buddhism better. :)
>
Michael,
thank you for have annotated this christian (religious)faith, we are
a singularity body not a universe, is it possible a diskfullfiles
does contain all an universe? it's possible an electric body wired
contain all an universe? i'm typed on this k/board, i am, i am, of
course this is a mystic tautology. it's a strange way that people
sex the universe, do u know? there's a person hospitalized, in
pain, "when these men are about to leave their lives",( have a
look at raymond carver), "they first make their heads beautiful",
ask to a person for his religion? there is always a moment of
hesitation. think u are in pain and people ask u yr religion,u
answer: i'm christian. this happen in western countries,
(in italy the bureaucratic office sign up u as catholic!), i dont
know if this the same in the US of America. but none is sure of
the authenticity of the answer, if somebody dig my file tell
whoo u are atheist not catholic but dont worry yr body is in pain
u haven't before experimented with pain, u havent before had
that trouble, u are genuine, u havent a life before the one own
u are living, & never have other life, only 1 chance, u are a
man, i think jack kerouac has really a body & in some place,
not of course in this planet, we'll meet really jack kerouac,
(or i am a crazy man?) siddharta, san francesco, kerouac have
created the myth of their own ego (self) in face of the pain
of death. not to everybody it's possible. i feel my instants are
gone but i dontwant my body 'll be unplugged from world...we are
forever waiting for...
saluti,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:56:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: another newcomer...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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The epitomal Kerouac:
...and I shambled after as I've been doing all my life after people
who interest me, because the only people for me are the mad ones, the
ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of
everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a
commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabolous yellow roman
candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you
see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes 'Awww!'"
JK, OTC
*****************************
My favorite new quote, actually Jack quoting J. Joyce in SOTD
cheap and sweet; soon sour.
******************************
Praised be man, he is existing in milk and living in lilies...praised
be I, writing, dead already and dead again.
JK from Mex. City Blues (the ... cut is from the Kerouc ROMnibus, it's
the intro to the disk and in Jack's own voice.)
******************************
love and lilies,
matt
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: another newcomer...
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 1/9/98 4:41 PM
----------
> From: Jodie R Gardner <JGardner@DOANE.EDU>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Re: another newcomer...
> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:03:17 -0600
>
> I attend Doane College, in Nebraska. I do believe that the only reason
that
> this
> class is offered is because it is something that is very important to my
> professor. My professor plays jazz and reads Beat literature for fun,
because
> he
> believes in it, not because it is his job to teach it. As a matter of
fact, his
> job is to teach Philosophy and Ethics. The class is so open and I love it
more
> than any other class I have taken thus far. Thanks for asking.
> Oh, by the way, our text book is "The Portable Beat Reader" and it
contains many
> examples from the greatest writers. If anyone has some great quotes that
they
> strongly feel and believe in send them on to me and I can find some great
uses
> for
> them.
>
> *jodie*
>
> "You can't fix it. You can't make it go away.
> I don't know what you're going to do about it,
> But I know what I'm going to do about it. I'm just
> going to walk away from it. Maybe
> A small part of it will die if I'm not around
>
> feeding it anymore."
jodie:
here's a couple from the grest Bill B.
"All agents defect, and all resistors sell out."
"There is one Mark you can't beat. that''s the Mark inside."
how'd the pome go over?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:03:37 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: a real treat
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
kudo kodu kudu
sound great, i know it is hard to read yet it is good for both writer
and audience. any possibilities of posting some of the poetry read,
i would appreciate it.
patricia
sherri wrote:
>
> well, gotta say that last night was a real treat. our little band of
> beat-lers getting together and listening to Marie read her marvelous poetry.
> she read well and was clearly very appreciated by those beyond our little
> circle of admirers. felt very lucky to have been there.
>
> and QR Hand was a special bonus - a true poet and great reader.
>
> thanks Marie - you got it, girl+ACE-
>
> ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:10:24 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs, Wittgenstein
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
to be blunt i consider it a little creepy to declare problems with
williams estate and publishing before there is any. I feel that if any
one had a good marriage of heirs it is james and williams. williams
archives should be in good state since they were transfered before
william died and dealt with by the detail efficient james. but if one
wanted to pretend problems then might be better to backchannel and
hint. there is enough real problems with the material tied up in the
memory babe archives. of course that is affected by the sampas fight
which thankfully the majority of williams stuff is immune to.
patricia
Michael R. Brown wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> > (& BTW, there's still a lot of W's writings not yet published....yet
> > another "estate" controversy)
>
> And presumably another archive that is going to be allowed to be reclused
> from open study, to languish and deteriorate. :/
>
> Someone sometime on this list said that all writers should take care to
> make clear the _exact_ terms of their desires for disposition of their
> literary estate. Very true. Do we really need to waste precious time of
> life in "Jack [or Bill or Allen] woulda WANTED it this way" arguments?
>
> + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
> Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
> + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:06:10 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
Subject: This body Universe, a sort of BeatZen reply
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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We are the mirror as well as the face in it. We are tasting the taste
this moment of eternity. We are Pain and what cures pain, both.
We are the jar and the sweet cold water that pours.
- Rumi
No body, No universe (A la heart sutra). No here, no there.
Only both. No either/or. We are the stuff that the universe is made
of. A singularity contains aspects of the whole. Universe is
perpetuated through body. Things are void of preconceptions. Certain
distinctions are only forms dancing before our eyes. there is
something beyond the forms. we speak as if absolute is before us. all
there is, is endless wonder. as Corso says, "Never find Forever."
-off the cuff musings after reading BeatZen emails and trying to stay
grounded during manic work day.
Hope you all are well.
Peace be upon you.
Sean D. Young
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:22:00 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: THE BALLAD OF IRA HAYES
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Poor old drunken Ira Hayes?
According to Johnny Cash's Greatest Hits, Volume One it was written by
P. LaFarge. I presume no relation to LaBarge.
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> it has a beat
>
> does anybody know the lyrics?
> does anybody know WHO allegedly wrote it?
> does anybody know WHICH BEAT WRITER ACTUALLY WROTE IT?
> is it true it was written in Mary's Vineyard outside EUGENE OREGON?
>
> trivia questions?
>
> pandur
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 20:15:25 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: sliced writings ("Ciao, Alice")
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980109185526.006a8808@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 06:55 PM 1/9/98 +0100, you wrote:
>(...)
> Alice si mise in testa non soltanto di vivere
>ma di pubblicare quegli inediti senza toccare la collezione
>dei quadri. Uso' tutto il denaro che le restava-non molto,
>dopo la malattia di Gertrude-e accetto' di pubblicare su
>riviste di grande tiratura articoli di cucina, a condizione
>che le venissero retribuiti con generosita'. Gli articoli
>ebbero un tale successo che un editore la invito' a comporre
>un vero e proprio volume di ricette; e Alice lo scrisse un
>po' sotto forma di pettegolezzo, facendosi mandare da tutti
>gli amici le loro ricette preferite.
> Tremo al pensiero delle ricette che mi convinse a mandarle
>e che naturalmente mi feci dalla ragazza tuttofare che mi nutriva
>in quegli anni; ma dalle mie innocue cotolette alla pizzaiola
>o pesto alla genovese o gnocchi alla romana almeno non le
>derivarono guai. Invece Brion Gysin (che piu' tardi sarebbe
>diventato noto attraverso il sodalizio con William Burroughs
>e i loro cut-ups), o forse Paul Bowles (protagonista in seguito
>di un colossale revival grazie alla riduzione cinematografica
>che Bernardo Bertolucci fece del suo The Sheltering Sky) le
>mando' da Tangeri la ricetta di una crema all'hashish e Alice
>la pubblico' nel testo integrale, in cui veniva consigliata come
>particolarmente adatta a un pomeriggio di pioggia e si precisava,
>nella descrizione degli ingredienti, che si poteva facilmente
>coltivare in un vasetto sul davanzale della cucina, come si
>fa nei paesi meridionali con il basilico, la menta o le altre
>erbe aromatiche.
> Quando il libro usci', la campagna di Allen Ginsberg per
>la legalizzazione della marijuana non era ancora incominciata.
>Il settimanale "Time" pubblico' una recensione anticipata
>segnalando la ricetta e affermando che non c'era da stupirsi
>se Gertrude Stein scriveva in quel modo incomprensibile,
>considerando il cibo che le somministrava Alice. Quando lesse
>l'articolo, Gysin le telefono' da Tangeri, offrendosi di
>modificare il testo; ma ormai era troppo tardi. L'editore
>americano parlo' con il procuratore generale, e nonostante ne
>ricevesse la precisazione della colpevolezza di chi compra, vende
>o usa droghe ma l'innocenza di chi ne scrive, preferi' rifare
>l'ultima parte del libro (nonostante fosse gia' rilegato)
>sopprimendo la ricetta pericolosa. Alice si trovo', a settantotto
>anni, al centro di uno scandalo forse piu' vistoso del
>necessario, in un'atmosfera da Grande Inquisizione e da Rogo delle
>streghe; e il settimanale "Time" pubblico' solo poche righe
>della sua lettera di spiegazione.
> Il fatto che i libro continuasse a circolare in Inghilterra
>non evito' l'insuccesso economico del volume: il mercato che
>avrebbe assorbito quelle ricette, con o senza marijuana, procurando
>ad Alice un lieve sollievo economico, non era certo quello inglese.
>Quando le chiesi che cosa mai le fosse venuto in mente, mi
>rispose con aria offesa di non aver mai saputo, prima che si
>facesse tutto quel chiasso, che la cannabis sativa e' la marijuana,
>e di aver inserito la ricetta soltanto perche' le sembrava divertente.
>(...)
>F.P. 1965.
>
>Gaul Est Dividio in Partes Tres!
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:35:37 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs, Wittgenstein
In-Reply-To: <34B6BC70.2EAF@sunflower.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
um, we were talking about Wittgenstein's estate....no intention to
suggest any problems with WSB's
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Patricia Elliott wrote:
> to be blunt i consider it a little creepy to declare problems with
> williams estate and publishing before there is any. I feel that if any
[...]
> william died and dealt with by the detail efficient james. but if one
> wanted to pretend problems then might be better to backchannel and
> hint.
>
> patricia
>
> Michael R. Brown wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> >
> > > (& BTW, there's still a lot of W's writings not yet published....yet
> > > another "estate" controversy)
> >
> > And presumably another archive that is going to be allowed to be reclused
> > from open study, to languish and deteriorate. :/
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:42:52 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "V.J. Eaton" <vj@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg in America
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Old. Bad. Buy it anyway and read it.
>Does anyone out there know anything about this book? Schtick? Good/bad?
It seems to
>be just published . . .
Did it have a title page?
_____________________
My opinions and those of my employer are usually different,
for which my mother apologizes.
V.J. Eaton
Tempe, AZ
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:58:51 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: my 15 minutes
Content-Type: text/plain
well, it surebe nice to get a gig in frisco at all, not the least to
have the wonderful friends in the crowd -and, gasp!) more listeners than
poets!
had a blast.
QR Hand is an amazing man
marie
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Fri Jan 9 03:09:07 1998
>Received: from listserv.cuny.edu (listserv.cuny.edu [128.228.100.10])
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>Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 05:04:31 -0600
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
>Subject: Re: my 15 minutes
>Comments: To: Gibson <rgibson@prairienet.org>
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>marie countyman wrote:
>>
>> hey everyone: it was a great evening, with local and beloved it seems
to
>> many (including me) QR Hand read some of his work and it was great.
my
>> reading went well: i was geared up for the newest version of
'insomnia
>> quartet' and that read quite well. the audience certainly did not
hurt,
>> as it included leon, without whom it would not have happened at all,
and
>> by sherri and james, who i have come to know and like very much. and
QR
>> as well.
>> it's tired and my mind is fried.
>> more to come
>> thanks for all comments, good thoughts, and cheerleading! it all
helped.
>> mc
>>
>> ______________________________________________________
>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>More seriously MARIE. It is wonderful in my view for someone named
>Country Man named MARIE to get a GREAT GIG. As we all sing sometimes
in
>the Elevators from GOODNIGHT IRENE, "Sometimes I LIVE IN THE CUNT-TREE
>SOMETIMES I LIVE IN TOWN SOMETIMES I GET A GREAT NOTION TO JUMP IN a
>lake.
>
>d
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:13:59 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: uh, Jim Harrison?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Gene,
Nice to see you mention Harrison, who is a favorite of mine, tho not really
withing the purvue of this list. I don't really know his poetry, I must
confess,
but his novellas are some of the best current prose, in my view. Dalva, of the
longer things, is a big one for me.
James Stauffer
GTL1951 wrote:
> Marie
> I damn sure dont want to take away from your 15 mins. i think its
> great!Now- about a month back I made a statement on the list that I felt that
> Pound, Eliot, and Ginsberg were the greatest American Poets. I would have
> included Rilke, light and fire that he was, cept he wasnt American! Anyways-
> fraid I left out one of the greatest living American Poets- Jim Harrison.
> I have yet to see mention of him on the List, and I dont think you can
> a more Beat, Enlightened, and Intelligent Poet going today. Dont tell me about
> those same ol samo acedemics guys and dolls. Boring! And dont let the Brad
> Pitt hoopla over Legend of the Fall bring you down- Harrison is great!
> Read the guy- he deserves our support.
> Gen
> e
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:09:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly- Page updated today!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Today I changed the page around a little bit per the costant e-mail I get
for creative suggestions. I do appreciate them all.There are new links to
great pages on Burroughs, Ginsberg, John Clellon Holmes, and of course...
the all new Kerouac Quarterly Chat Room! Go there anytime!
Have a nice weekend all and look for some new Kerouac
Quarterly pages very shortly...Paul of TKQ.
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 20:09:27 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Lew Welch
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Nancy,
I make tons of typo's, God knows, and I love the Lew quote, but it's "Welch" not
"Whelch"
James
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> >
> > "Those who can't find anything to live for
> > always invent something to die for.
> >
> > Then they want the rest of us to
> > die for it, too."
> >
> > - Lew Whelch
> >
>
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:52:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Synchronicity
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In a moment of coincidence, I picked up Bob Dylan by Anthony Scudato
(1973) and found this on page 66:
"Pete Seeger would come, with his wife Toshi, and their children. Peter
La Farge (son of Oliver La Farge, who won the 1930 Pulitzer Prize in
literature for Laughing Boy, his novel about hte Navajos) part-Indian,
cowboy, folksinger, author of The Ballad of Ira Hayes, weaver of tall
tales. Cisco Houston, Jack Elliott and dozens more."
LaFarge is also mentioned on pages 78, 120, 133, 137, and 283.
On page 283 it says,
"While Bob was in Australia hte previous April Richard Farina had been
killed in a motorcycle accident. Paul Clayton committed suicide the
April before Dylan's accident, jumping out of a window after a three-day
LSD trip. Peter La Farge had committed suicide. Death lurked all
around."
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:40:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: uh, Jim Harrison?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.980109144003.24778C-100000@comp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>I just wanted to second the vote for Jim Harrison. He's amazingly good in
>any form, poetry/short fiction/novels. He even met Jack Kerouac once.
>
>Don Lee
>Fayetteville, Ark.
>
>"I cannot live without books."
> --Thomas Jefferson
It was Harrison's book "Farmer" that started the exodus of city folk to the
country--particularly teachers.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:34:13 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: THE BALLAD OF IRA HAYES
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M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> At 01:35 AM 1/9/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>
> >does anybody know WHO allegedly wrote it?
>
> P. LaFarge wrote it, everyone sings it. . .
>
> Townes Van Zandt's version is one of my fave's.
> Dylan's is ok, I guess. Motley Crue's version
> is by far the best!!
>
> Motorcyle Mike
i prefer MY version under the PEN-NAME ROBERT PIRSIG.
DR
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:35:12 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: my 15 minutes
Comments: cc: "lewenthompson@midkan.com" <lewenthompson@midkan.com>
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M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> At 03:47 AM 1/9/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>
> >I heard GEORGE WILL is gonna PAN U'R PERFORMANCE
> >BIG TIME!!!!!!
> >
> >citizen caine
>
> ROSEBUD!?!?!?!?!
Raisins
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:05:47 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: THE BALLAD OF IRA HAYES
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="------------F8AAEB5A16788135A79641B9"
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> Ok David,
Most the questions are answered. I am less hip than some of the guys, I
only remember the Johnny Cash and Bob Dylan versions.
We know know that Oliver La Farge's son wrote it--
But where do you get the Eugene, Ore info--curious about my old town's
connection. What is the story. You are exceedingly cryptic these days.
Speaking only in koans after your satori.
James Stauffer
>
>
> David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
> > it has a beat
> >
> > does anybody know the lyrics?
> > does anybody know WHO allegedly wrote it?
> > does anybody know WHICH BEAT WRITER ACTUALLY WROTE IT?
> > is it true it was written in Mary's Vineyard outside EUGENE OREGON?
> >
> > trivia questions?
> >
> > pandur
>
--------------F8AAEB5A16788135A79641B9
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<HTML>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Ok David,</BLOCKQUOTE>
Most the questions are answered. I am less hip than some of the guys,
I only remember the Johnny Cash and Bob Dylan versions.
<P>We know know that Oliver La Farge's son wrote it--
<P>But where do you get the Eugene, Ore info--curious about my old town's
connection. What is the story. You are exceedingly cryptic
these days. Speaking only in koans after your satori.
<P>James Stauffer
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<P>David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
<P>> it has a beat
<BR>>
<BR>> does anybody know the lyrics?
<BR>> does anybody know WHO allegedly wrote it?
<BR>> does anybody know WHICH BEAT WRITER ACTUALLY WROTE IT?
<BR>> is it true it was written in Mary's Vineyard outside EUGENE OREGON?
<BR>>
<BR>> trivia questions?
<BR>>
<BR>> pandur
<BR><A HREF="http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw"></A> </BLOCKQUOTE>
</HTML>
--------------F8AAEB5A16788135A79641B9--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 03:29:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: my 15 minutes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:35 AM 1/10/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>M. Cakebread wrote:
>> ROSEBUD!?!?!?!?!
>
>Raisins
Damn, I thought I'd found u. . .
Signing off from RKO Radio,
CFK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:28:23 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: WSB mentioned on Leno
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Thursday night Robin Williams was on the Tonight Show. Somehow Gus Van
Sant's name was mentioned, and RW described GVS as like "a cross
between Mr Rogers and William Burroughs." This seemed to elicit no
reaction, so RW mumbled something like, "no one know knows what I'm
talking about, do they".
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:45:59 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: This body Universe, a sort of BeatZen reply
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
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Sean Young wrote:
>
> We are the mirror as well as the face in it. We are tasting the taste
> this moment of eternity. We are Pain and what cures pain, both.
> We are the jar and the sweet cold water that pours.
> - Rumi
>
> No body, No universe (A la heart sutra). No here, no there.
> Only both. No either/or. We are the stuff that the universe is made
> of. A singularity contains aspects of the whole. Universe is
> perpetuated through body. Things are void of preconceptions. Certain
> distinctions are only forms dancing before our eyes. there is
> something beyond the forms. we speak as if absolute is before us. all
> there is, is endless wonder. as Corso says, "Never find Forever."
>
> -off the cuff musings after reading BeatZen emails and trying to stay
> grounded during manic work day.
>
> Hope you all are well.
> Peace be upon you.
>
> Sean D. Young
despite the assurances of the sutras, no taste, no illusion of taste, no
thought, no illusion of thought, we are still individual egos, even now
click clacking keyboards before the rise of the sun and connected thru
wires and electric flux.
despite teachers' assurance of no body no individual self, our
individual bodies still exist in the individual mind of even tulkus, who
abstract us as sources of income and fuck vessels, especially after a
few beers
steven segall now a tulku. imagine. steven segall born without karma,
come selflessly into world to save us lessers.
gosh
free tibet
hahaha
a dead universe with no god, only us and our neurotic preceptions, and
no way out, seven lifetimes at best, and most of us stuck in the endless
cycle os samsara, maya and karma, or a universe created by a loving god,
who despite our history of turning away and falling away still leaves
open the door of salvation, free to all who accept. which is more
cynical, more hopeless?
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:56:42 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: sliced writings ("Ciao, Alice")
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.19980109191003.24a7bc34@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mike Rice writes:
>>Gaul Est Dividio in Partes Tres!
Mike, the above line was cracking me up!
then...
During 1965 Alice B. Toklas was in financial difficulties and
planed to write a cookery book. she aimed to collect
recipes from her friends. Brion Gysin kidding send to her
the Hashish Fudge recipe. Afterwards the TIME magazine,
was shocked by the recipe, stressed the Gertrude Stein's
writings were so incomprehensible cuz she has eaten the
food cooked by Alice.
* A Rose is a rose Rose is a rose is a rose *
saluti to all,
the beetle of venice.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:27:39 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: WSB mentioned on Leno
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980110022218.570806468A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> Thursday night Robin Williams was on the Tonight Show. Somehow Gus Van
> Sant's name was mentioned, and RW described GVS as like "a cross
> between Mr Rogers and William Burroughs." This seemed to elicit no
> reaction, so RW mumbled something like, "no one know knows what I'm
> talking about, do they".
Ahhhh, but they will one day ... :)
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Find out the laws then do what you will.
- Susannah Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:33:16 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: This body Universe, a sort of BeatZen reply
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tom--
Thanks for putting it so well. And so many JK fans keep bemoaning the fact that
he kept is affection for the old mother church. If he had only lived long
enough to see Siegal buy his tulka-hood--I am sure he would have changed his
mind.
James Stauffer
Tom Christopher wrote:
> despite the assurances of the sutras, no taste, no illusion of taste, no
> thought, no illusion of thought, we are still individual egos, even now
> click clacking keyboards before the rise of the sun and connected thru
> wires and electric flux.
>
> despite teachers' assurance of no body no individual self, our
> individual bodies still exist in the individual mind of even tulkus, who
> abstract us as sources of income and fuck vessels, especially after a
> few beers
>
> steven segall now a tulku. imagine. steven segall born without karma,
> come selflessly into world to save us lessers.
>
> gosh
>
> free tibet
>
> hahaha
>
> a dead universe with no god, only us and our neurotic preceptions, and
> no way out, seven lifetimes at best, and most of us stuck in the endless
> cycle os samsara, maya and karma, or a universe created by a loving god,
> who despite our history of turning away and falling away still leaves
> open the door of salvation, free to all who accept. which is more
> cynical, more hopeless?
>
> tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:26:40 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: This body Universe, a sort of BeatZen reply
In-Reply-To: <34B7272E.4D45@zipcon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Tom Christopher wrote:
>a dead universe with no god, only us and our neurotic preceptions, and
at the moment i missed the bus cuz surprised for a great orange moon
in a sky going to the evening
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:37:22 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: sliced writings ("Ciao, Alice")
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980110165642.006b0484@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> the beetle of venice.
Would that be an affine animal to that of the opera by Nietzsche's
friend, Peter Gast: _The Lion of Venice_? :)
Salut!
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Find out the laws then do what you will.
- Susannah Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:19:47 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: the parable of the horse re: SKiing accidents
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> but we all die.. and i can think of a lot less funny and harsher ways
> to die than running into a tree skiing.
> i certainly know if i died in a funny way (for instance, dying on a
> luxury cruise, in the middle of a huge ocean...by drowning in the little
> pool on board)i wouldn't mind at all if people got a few minutes of
> perverse pleasure out of laughing...
> if its one thing i don't like, please do not take offense, is when
> people get too serious when things are supposed to be funny...
> it may be wrong to luagh at their deaths... but i'm laughing at their
> lives too...
> -julian
Julian and all:
a parable for us all:
My significant other used to be married to a simple country-type woman,
who really really wanted a horse. After much discussion, arguments, and
debates on the pros and cons of owning a horse, the ex-wife won out in
the end, and they purchased her a horse.
flash: three years later, literally a flash:
by this time, they divorced, she kept the horse, and my significant
other and his ex-wife remained friends. One morning she calls while he
is in the shower, I figured it had to be something relatively important
for her to call that early in the morning. so I rouse him out of the
shower, he talks with her for five, ten minutes, then hangs up. He
starts to laugh uncontrollably. I ask him what it was she had to say
that set him off like this.
He says, "Remember the horse which caused much angst between her and I?"
I said, "Yeah... and?"
He said, "The horse got hit by lightning. They found it out in the
pasture, charred almost beyond recognition. Wanna know what the worst
part was?"
"Yeah," I answered.
He looked at me with a straight face. "The horse's head exploded when
it got hit by the lightning. They found it quite a way from the body!"
He started laughing again, slapping his knee. He found it quite ironic
in the end, that after all the arguments, after all the hair-pulling and
name-calling, it didn't matter in the end because the problem of the
horse had essentially disappeared in one quick strike from the heavens
above. It just didn't matter, it hadn't really been that important in
the first place.
I started laughing then, also, but stopped after a moment when I
realized what it might have felt like to see your charred, beheaded
horse lying out in the pasture. But then irony won out again, I started
laughing again, but I still felt bad about it.
the end.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:50:58 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: T-BONE INTENTIONS <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: sliced writings ("Ciao, Alice")
Speaking of Alice Toklas brownies, there was a letter from Hunter Thompson in
the recent 60s exhibit at the Cleveland Rock 'n Roll musuem Hall of Fame.
I forget who the letter was from but they had written Hunter for a favorite
recipe. Hunter wrote back with a very specific recipe for chocolate chip
cookies and hash. Wish I had a copy of that letter. Did anybody else see it?
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:28:10 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980107203100.570815195C-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
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On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> In all my reading of Burroughs, I've never run across anything that
> made me think, "Gee, that sounds just like Wittgenstein." So apart
> from the explicit reference in the intro to Naked Lunch, I don't think
> Burroughs ever had much to say about W.
Well, there is that reference to Wittgenstein's pre-recorded-universe
idea in the WSB documentary. Wittgenstein may have been more of an
influence, however, in the idea of language-games. Perhaps Burroughs was a
language-gamester akin to the "trickster guru" Alan Watts wrote about.
Michael,
dreaming of coyote, the trickster god
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Libertarianism is political bisexuality.
- M. Brown (libertarian)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:32:48 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: sliced writings ("Ciao, Alice")
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T-BONE INTENTIONS wrote:
>
> Speaking of Alice Toklas brownies, there was a letter from Hunter Thompson in
> the recent 60s exhibit at the Cleveland Rock 'n Roll musuem Hall of Fame.
> I forget who the letter was from but they had written Hunter for a favorite
> recipe. Hunter wrote back with a very specific recipe for chocolate chip
> cookies and hash. Wish I had a copy of that letter. Did anybody else see it?
>
> Dave B.
TBONE was my first bodyguard in ROCKISLAND ILLinois. It's pretty much
now down to the land of lincoln vs. the land of eisenhower. I like Ike
and i was born in lincoln Kansas. Please send a note to my father
Rev. James William Rhaesa (Ret)
6909 NW Pleasant View Lane
Parkville MO 64152
or call me directly at
785-7969
LOVE
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:30:49 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Burroughs, Wittgenstein
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980109193126.570826186A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
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Actually, Michael R. Brown mentioned Burroughs parenthetically when he
said:
"Do we really need to waste precious time of
life in "Jack [or Bill or Allen] woulda WANTED it this way" arguments?"
Having seen the forwarded e-mail from James Grauerholz that Diane posted,
I think we can all rest easy that the Burroughs estate is going to be
EXTREMELY well taken care of. I, for one, sleep easy at night knowing it's
in James' capable hands.
Neil
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> um, we were talking about Wittgenstein's estate....no intention to
> suggest any problems with WSB's
>
> On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> > to be blunt i consider it a little creepy to declare problems with
> > williams estate and publishing before there is any. I feel that if any
> [...]
> > william died and dealt with by the detail efficient james. but if one
> > wanted to pretend problems then might be better to backchannel and
> > hint.
> >
> > patricia
> >
> > Michael R. Brown wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> > >
> > > > (& BTW, there's still a lot of W's writings not yet published....yet
> > > > another "estate" controversy)
> > >
> > > And presumably another archive that is going to be allowed to be reclused
> > > from open study, to languish and deteriorate. :/
>
> *******
> Jeff Taylor
> taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
> *******
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:10:02 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: George <nellie@CCO.NET>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
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At 09:48 AM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:
>Jon Krackaurer (correct spelling?) wrote a book called "Into the Wild"
>about Alexander Supertramp. It is an excellent book, well researched
>with extensive interviews of the many people supertramp touched during
>the two years between "dissappearing" and "reappearing" dead in the
>Alaskan wilderness.
That book was studied in my American Lit. class, we didn't read all of it,
just excerpts, then had to write an essay on if we thought he made the right
decision. Wasn't Supertramp's real name Chris McCandless?
Janelle
"Strange now to think of you, gone without corsets & eyes,"
--Allen Ginsberg
"So in America when the sun goes down and I sit on the old broken-down
river pier watching the long, long skies over New Jersey and sense all that
raw land that rolls in one unbelivble huge bulge over to the West Coast,
and all that road going and all thoes people dreaming in the immensity of
it, and in Iowa i know by now the children must be crying in the land where
they let the children cry, and tonight the stars'll be out, and don't you
know God is Pooh Bear? the evening star must be drooping and shedding her
spakler dims on the prairie, which is just before the coming of compleate
night that blesses the earth, darkens all rivers, cups the peaks and folds
the final shore in, and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to
anybody besides the forlorn rags of growing old, I think of Dean Moriarty, I
even think of old Dean Moriarty the father we never found, I think of Dean
Moriarty." --Jack Kerouac
*********************************************************************
If you would like to submit an artical, drawing, photograph, poem, song,
story, joke, rant, manifesto, or whatever else you have, to 96 MILES TO
PORTLAND, PLEASE contact me. If you want to subscribe PLEASE contact me, if
you submitt your issue containing the submission is free. If you would just
like to get an issue then it's $1. By e-mail it's free but you can't seee
the pretty pictures
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:47:54 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
Content-Type: text/plain
>
>That book was studied in my American Lit. class, we didn't read all of
it,
>just excerpts, then had to write an essay on if we thought he made the
right
>decision. Wasn't Supertramp's real name Chris McCandless?
>Janelle
>
>
Yes, I believe it was...
I'd suggest reading the whole book.. after all this talk of it I may
have to go and reread it..
Read Junky this weekend. First entire Burroughs book I have read,
really liked. Moved very quickly and was just so a matter-of-fact way of
relating such a wacked-out lifestyle.
That's all I can say.
-Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Greg Beaver-Seitz
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:28:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: WSB mentioned on Leno
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980110082712.720A-100000@global.california.c om>
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At 08:27 AM 1/10/98 -0800, you wrote:
>On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
>> Thursday night Robin Williams was on the Tonight Show. Somehow Gus Van
>> Sant's name was mentioned, and RW described GVS as like "a cross
>> between Mr Rogers and William Burroughs." This seemed to elicit no
>> reaction, so RW mumbled something like, "no one know knows what I'm
>> talking about, do they".
>
>Ahhhh, but they will one day ... :)
>
>Listen, tell me, I don't know what he means either and I have imbibed both
Mr. Rogers and William Burroughs' neighborhood. What is the not very funny
Williams getting at?
Mike Rice
>
>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
> Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
>
>
> Find out the laws then do what you will.
> - Susannah Thompson
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:59:48 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: BRUNO (was Re: Stone on Kerouac
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M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> At 05:05 PM 1/8/98 -0500, Mike Rice wrote:
>
> >It developed that Bettelheim had also lied about
> >his academic credentials and was something of a
> >fraud. I saw Bettelheim on Dick Cavett years ago
> >talking about the Fairy Tale book.
>
> _The Empty Fortress_ has always been a book I've
> had to read with a "pound" of salt. The statement,
> "my belief that the precipitating factor in infantile
> autism is the parent's wish that his child should
> not exist (Bettelheim, 1967)" has led me to refer
> to him as "Brutal" Bettelheim.
>
> Mike
THANX
d
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:21:48 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Ginsberg etc.
Content-Type: text/plain
Hey everyone!
Just added a bunch of new pictures and poems to Ginsberg etc.
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
Enjoy,
Greg
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:39:58 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jodie R Gardner <JGardner@DOANE.EDU>
Subject: Re: another newcomer...
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My poem went over great! They actually liked it! Anyway, the class is still
going well. Thanks for all the comments and quotes!
*jodie*
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:29:57 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg etc.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:
>
> Hey everyone!
>
> Just added a bunch of new pictures and poems to Ginsberg etc.
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
>
> Enjoy,
> Greg
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
THANX
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:32:50 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: another newcomer...
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Jodie R Gardner wrote:
>
> My poem went over great! They actually liked it! Anyway, the class is still
> going well. Thanks for all the comments and quotes!
>
> *jodie*
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPER DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPR
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:49:52 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: OTR character key
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Hello all,
I just finished typing this out for a friend in need... I thought I'd
pass it along for anyone who doesn't have a character guide. All those
who do, delete away!
Adrien
_On The Road_ Character Key
NOTE: All character names are listed alphabetically by last name, with
the exception of characters with single names; pseudonym first, real
name second.
"AUNT"--Gabrielle L'Evesque Kerouac [mother of JK]
REMI BONCOEUR--Henri Cru [friend of JK at Horace Mann, then in
California & NYC]
CAMILLE--Carolyn Cassady [wife of Neal Cassady for 20 years]
DAMION--Lucien carr [friend of JK, Ginsberg, and Burroughs at Columbia &
later NYC]
DODIE--Julie Burroughs [daughter of Joan Burroughs]
ED DUNKEL--Al Hinkle [friend of Neal Cassady in Denver & SF]
GALATEA DUNKEL--Helen Hinkle [wife of Al Hinkle]
ROLLO GREB--Alan Ansen [poet friend of JK]
TIM GREY--Ed White [friend of JK at Columbia, introduced JK to
"sketching"]
ELMO HASSEL--Herbert Huncke [early friend of JK, Ginsberg, Burroughs, et
al; 'beat' originator]
HAL HINGHAM--Alan Harrington [novelist & essayist, author of _The
Immortalist_]
INEZ--Diana Hansen [wife of Neal cassady in NYC]
JANE--Joan Vollmer Adams Burroughs [wife of William Burroughs]
ROY JOHNSON--Bill Tomson [friend of Neal Cassady in Denver & SF,
introduced Neal to Carolyn]
CHAD KING--Hal Chase [friend of JK at Columbia & Denver]
LAURA--Joan Haverty [second wife of JK, wrote OTR while living with her
in NYC]
OLD BULL LEE--William Burroughs
ROLAND MAJOR--Alan Temko [friend of JK in Denver, architectural critic &
professor]
CARLO MARX--Allen Ginsberg
MARY LOU--Luanne Henderson [Neal Cassady's first wife, road companion of
Cassady & JK]
AMY MORIARTY--Cathy Cassady [daughter of Neal & Carolyn Cassady]
DEAN MORIARTY--Neal Cassady
JOANIE MORIARTY--Jamie Cassady [daughter of Neal & Carolyn Cassady]
SAL PARADISE--Jack Kerouac
BABE RAWLINS--Beverly Burford [Bob Burford's sister, knew JK in SF as
well as Denver]
RAY RAWLINS--Bob Burford [friend of JK's in Denver]
RAY--William Burroughs, Jr. [son of Joan & William Burroughs]
TOM SAYBROOK--John Clellon Holmes [novelist, author of _Go_, the first
Beat Generation novel published]
STAN SHEPHERD--Frank Jefferies [friend of JK's in Denver]
TOM SNARK--Jim Holmes [early friend of Neal Cassady's in Denver]
TERRY--Bea Franco [girlfriend of JK in California, "The Mexican Girl"]
ED WALL--Don Uhl [friend of Neal Cassady in Colorado]
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:59:25 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR character key
Comments: To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Adrien Begrand wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I just finished typing this out for a friend in need... I thought I'd
> pass it along for anyone who doesn't have a character guide. All those
> who do, delete away!
>
> Adrien
>
> _On The Road_ Character Key
>
> NOTE: All character names are listed alphabetically by last name, with
> the exception of characters with single names; pseudonym first, real
> name second.
>
> "AUNT"--Gabrielle L'Evesque Kerouac [mother of JK]
> REMI BONCOEUR--Henri Cru [friend of JK at Horace Mann, then in
> California & NYC]
> CAMILLE--Carolyn Cassady [wife of Neal Cassady for 20 years]
> DAMION--Lucien carr [friend of JK, Ginsberg, and Burroughs at Columbia &
> later NYC]
> DODIE--Julie Burroughs [daughter of Joan Burroughs]
> ED DUNKEL--Al Hinkle [friend of Neal Cassady in Denver & SF]
> GALATEA DUNKEL--Helen Hinkle [wife of Al Hinkle]
> ROLLO GREB--Alan Ansen [poet friend of JK]
> TIM GREY--Ed White [friend of JK at Columbia, introduced JK to
> "sketching"]
> ELMO HASSEL--Herbert Huncke [early friend of JK, Ginsberg, Burroughs, et
> al; 'beat' originator]
> HAL HINGHAM--Alan Harrington [novelist & essayist, author of _The
> Immortalist_]
> INEZ--Diana Hansen [wife of Neal cassady in NYC]
> JANE--Joan Vollmer Adams Burroughs [wife of William Burroughs]
> ROY JOHNSON--Bill Tomson [friend of Neal Cassady in Denver & SF,
> introduced Neal to Carolyn]
> CHAD KING--Hal Chase [friend of JK at Columbia & Denver]
> LAURA--Joan Haverty [second wife of JK, wrote OTR while living with her
> in NYC]
> OLD BULL LEE--William Burroughs
> ROLAND MAJOR--Alan Temko [friend of JK in Denver, architectural critic &
> professor]
> CARLO MARX--Allen Ginsberg
> MARY LOU--Luanne Henderson [Neal Cassady's first wife, road companion of
> Cassady & JK]
> AMY MORIARTY--Cathy Cassady [daughter of Neal & Carolyn Cassady]
> DEAN MORIARTY--Neal Cassady
> JOANIE MORIARTY--Jamie Cassady [daughter of Neal & Carolyn Cassady]
> SAL PARADISE--Jack Kerouac
> BABE RAWLINS--Beverly Burford [Bob Burford's sister, knew JK in SF as
> well as Denver]
> RAY RAWLINS--Bob Burford [friend of JK's in Denver]
> RAY--William Burroughs, Jr. [son of Joan & William Burroughs]
> TOM SAYBROOK--John Clellon Holmes [novelist, author of _Go_, the first
> Beat Generation novel published]
> STAN SHEPHERD--Frank Jefferies [friend of JK's in Denver]
> TOM SNARK--Jim Holmes [early friend of Neal Cassady's in Denver]
> TERRY--Bea Franco [girlfriend of JK in California, "The Mexican Girl"]
> ED WALL--Don Uhl [friend of Neal Cassady in Colorado]
THAT KARYOKIE DUDE SHIRLEY WAS A FUCKING COMPLICATED OLD TURNIP.
DR
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:14:31 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: KCLINT!
Comments: To: edebatemail <edebate@list.uvm.edu>,
"CVEditions@aol.com" <CVEditions@aol.com>,
bohemian <Bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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WESTERN MOVIE THEMES
FROM
CLINT EASTWOOD MOVIES:
The Good the bad and the ugly planet of the apes and ants
High Plains Drifter
Seedlings
A Fistfull of Copper
Albino RYDER!
Hang em high joe kidd for a few bucks more the outland josie wales two
mules for sister sarah/sara
PC1995 Dominion Entertainment, I. Manufactured and distributed in the
USA by K-tel International (USA) INC 15535 Mesa Trail Plymouth ROCK.
DBR
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:10:00 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: WSB
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
HE IS RISEn HE IS RISEn INDEEDY!!!!
Is it TRUE THAT he still hates ALL GIRLS NAMED FATTIE PATTIE?
DBR>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:24:07 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: poetess JOYGOLISCHISDEFNITELYDEADASADOORNAILONABRASSBREDBED
MIME-Version: 1.0
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R.I.P
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:54:56 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
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Hello David!
Happy New Year to you etc..
I am surprised to see a response to my post from so long ago! So let me see
if it looks like you might want me to respond further
<<SNIP>>
>
>It behooves us (as my stepsister katie's teacher would say) to seriously
>consider how each of us can help to electrify American dreaming once
>again so that this experiment in nation-hood will not be another long
>long nightmare in the darkness from which none of us can awake. It
>seems that this electrification is closely tied to notions of
>authenitication and that revivals of Americanism in both intrapersonal
>and universal meanings are self-reinforcing.
Hmmm. If that is how it seems to you, it is o.k. by me. I am not sure though
how these words translate into whatever action.
<<SNIP>>
>> People authenticate their american identity when they give their lives
in
>> war with declared enemies of the state.
>
>This is a fairly narrow scope for authentication - we can serve
>authentically without dying in wars.
Absolutely. I used it as one example only, not to indicate scope.
>
>It has nevertheless happened that
>> some prisoners of war found more in common with their guards than with
their
>> nation.
>
>The research of Bettleheim (i believe it was) on the concentration camp
>victims associating with the values of the guards seems to correlate
>with these notions.
I see that other alert and informed Beat-Lers have provided some questions
regarding Bruno Bettleheim. Long before some character questions about
Bettleheim emerged I had very serious questions about his pronouncements.
Specifically about some generalizations the man made about concentration
camp inmates that were quite outrageously incorrect. He was in a camp only a
few days, and talked as if he had authoritative info about camp inmate
behaviors, that I, and any of my fellow ex concentration camp inmates that I
asked about it, found to be laughable (no joke though). So much for
Bettleheim's "findings".
When two catholics kill each other in a war of their nations, does
>> that authenticate theit religious identities, their national identities,
the
>> identities of their selves?
>
>Once again, it seems that the killing notion of authentification seems
>to be a difficult one for the world to detach. If two soldiers from
>different nations save each other's lives in war, and they are both
>catholic which authentications are involved?
I would say they authenticate their religious identities or humanitarian
identities to be taking precedence over national identities. Although this
is an oversimplification. I chose killing because willingness to kill
suggests a very strong authentication of identification. People prove
(authenticate) their patriotism, national identites, when they risk their
lives and take the lives of the national enemies in war. No question in my
mind that persons who live the ideals of their nation authenticate their
national identities in a much more positive and valuable manner in the long
run.
>
>Many eagle scouts have authenticated their scout
>> credo that way.
>
>I only made it a couple weeks in scouts. I couldn't hack it.
>
>Many writers have authenticated their identity as writers by
>> the work they produced. Jack Keouac authenticated himself as a writer who
>> tilled the soil of the american landscape among other places that he
could
>> find to search for any signs of life, mindless and mindfull action.
>
>Tilled the soil of the American landscape is an interesting metaphor.
>I'm not certain it is appropriate. It is lovely but Jack was more of a
>railroad and seaman than a farmer it seems. I would say Woody Guthrie
>was closer to the soil.
>
I really am puzzled about what you question here. The word "landscape" has
evolved to be used as a metaphor for environment be it land, air, or sea.
Even landscape of the mind. I am not quite sure what the questions are that
arisse in your mind. Replace my word "landscape" with "environment" if it
works better for you.
<<SNIP>>>>
>> Arguments are won by one side or another.
>
>Rarely. Arguments are part of a process of knowing. Argumentation is
>the cutting edge of epistomelogy research not public opinion. Notions
>of who won or lost are mere soundbites they leave little weight in the
>long run.
>
I was using the word "argument" in its ordinary sense, referring to a real
argument between two sides in which the side that wins the argument prevails
over the other side's argument. Like defense and prosecution in a court of
law for example.
>Reflecting upon our understanding
>> of things only stimulates us to further explorations, hopefully to be
able
>> to see more clearly in the grey areas of the mind where the perspective
of
>> others brings more light as well as creates new shadows.
>
>Definitely. And this is why the winning or losing of the arguments per
>se isn't the question. Rather it is the reflecting that argument brings
>out in all of us.
I was not talking about "the question" or about value measurements pragmatic
results in the short or long run..
<<SNIP>>
>> Unredeemed and in no need of authentication
>
>happy new year leon,
And an authentic happy new year to you too, and to all authentic human
beings.
>david rhaesa
>apt. #23
>
>> leon
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
>> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>> Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 7:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
>>
>> >I'm not sure I'm going to put this very well but I agree with Diane.
>> >Kerouac, it seems to me, did seek to become part of, and to capture in
>> >his art, the vast spirit of the American dream as Wolfe and Fitzgerald
>> >and others did before him.
Does that necessarily mean that he sought to authenticate his identity as
aperson through these subjects of his art?
I agree with Diane wholeheartedly that he
>> >never found the redemption that he was looking for and maybe the
>> >impossibility of achieving such redemption is a truth readers discover
>> >through his work. How does one discover or authenticate himself,
>> >except by measuring himself against a larger idea or tradition --
No one is restricted to define themselves through any of these groupings
>> >national identity, religion etc. In the end, one's search for self may
>> >end in a rejection of such big ideas as divisive and counterproductive
>> >but the search, it seems to me, has to involve a struggle with such
>> >ideas nonetheless.
"Such Ideas" cover a wide range of concepts. I am not sure that nation or
religion are necessarily significant issues in everyone's identities.
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:14:34 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: poetess JOYGOLISCHISDEFNITELYDEADASADOORNAILONABRASSBREDBED
In-Reply-To: <34B881A7.3878@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
David Bruce Rhaesa says:
>R.I.P
>
>
webegunourthoughtswithGODISDEADthisphrasenormallyusedbychristianideaofGOD
theall-knowingall-powerfulandall-lovingdoesnotexists-cute-cute-America-cu
te-Aaaaaaamericaaaaaaaaaaa!!!intendedquestionmarkreversed-cute-cute-AMERI
CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-cute-cuuuuuuuuuute!America-americaAmeeeeeeerica!!!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:50:29 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: STATUES OF DAEDALUS -- By Nathaniel Owens of Joliet Prison
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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"of their own motion they entered the conclave of Gods in Gypsum.
Some sense it is as if a shuttle should weave of itself, and a plectrum
should do its own axe playing." -- Aristotle "ed Politco" 1253b
in the centre of the 20th century the STATUES of DAEDALUS that "cunning
craftsman" of Greek legend, are beginning to dance in the West.
automaton (i.e., self-correcting machines that feedloop information and
adjust themselves) and cyberneticanation (i.e. making the automated
machines capable of responding to a definitive infinity of contingencies
through hooking them up with computers)!
DBR/dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:44:04 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Day of the Gladiators
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In my part of the world everything stops today for the spectacle of the
National Football League playoffs. Massive displays of testosterone and
stylized violence, in which I intend to immerse myself. After all,
Jack was a half-back.
Obviously it is important to the balance of everything that San
Francisco beats Green Bay--just as a triumph of a great Beat City over
the cloying heartland. I am less involved in the AFC side--although a
Denver victory would be nice--Denver, lonesome for her heroes, vs. San
Francisco ofthe poetry rennasisance ---on to the the Super Bowl.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:48:51 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Thom Gunn
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Fans of Gunn's poetry, or SF Poetry Renn fans in general may be
intereted to know that Gunn is the cover story in the SF Examiner
Magazine which is part of the jointly published San Francisco Sunday
paper. Not a bad year for them--Mt. Girl, and now Thom.
Jame Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:21:16 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Robin Williams on Leno
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Subject:
> Re: WSB mentioned on Leno
> Date:
> Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:28:44 -0500
> From:
> mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
>
>
> At 08:27 AM 1/10/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> >
> >> Thursday night Robin Williams was on the Tonight Show. Somehow Gus Van
> >> Sant's name was mentioned, and RW described GVS as like "a cross
> >> between Mr Rogers and William Burroughs." This seemed to elicit no
> >> reaction, so RW mumbled something like, "no one know knows what I'm
> >> talking about, do they".
> >
> >Ahhhh, but they will one day ... :)
> >
> >Listen, tell me, I don't know what he means either and I have imbibed both
> Mr. Rogers and William Burroughs' neighborhood. What is the not very funny
> Williams getting at?
>
> Mike Rice
> >
I think that Robin Williams was referring to the fact that a lot of
people these days know WSB only as "that wacky old guy who did the Nike
commercials a couple years back." they don't know the stories, they
don't know the history, etc. etc.
I had an experience in trying to describe who burroughs was just this
past October. This friend of mine, age 21, living in a medium size
town, hangs out with the interesting types and the bar band crowd, was
in chicago with me visiting another friend of mine. We're on our way
for the boys to go get tattooed, I'm talking about WSB. The guy says,
who? I said the writer, beat generation writer... he said what was the
beat generation? I try for a while to connect things up for him , even
going so far as to connect Ken Kesey to WSB, kind of like the seven
stages of Kevin Bacon game, it still isn't working. We get to the
tattoo parlor, and lo and behold, there is a framed photograph of WSB on
the wall. I got excited, turned to my friend, pointing at the picture
emphatically. "THERE!" I said, "That's him, right there in that
picture!"
"Oh, " my friend replied. "That's the old guy who does the Nike
commercials."
And the smile just melted right off of my face.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:37:51 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: STATUES OF DAEDALUS -- By Nathaniel Owens of Joliet Prison
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
> "of their own motion they entered the conclave of Gods in Gypsum.
> Some sense it is as if a shuttle should weave of itself, and a plectrum
> should do its own axe playing." -- Aristotle "ed Politco" 1253b
>
> in the centre of the 20th century the STATUES of DAEDALUS that "cunning
> craftsman" of Greek legend, are beginning to dance in the West.
>
> automaton (i.e., self-correcting machines that feedloop information and
> adjust themselves) and cyberneticanation (i.e. making the automated
> machines capable of responding to a definitive infinity of contingencies
> through hooking them up with computers)!
> DBR/dbr
lip
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:39:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Tonight: Chat In TKQ Chat Room
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Tonight: Approximately, at 8:00 EST, there will be a formal introduction of
the Kerouac Quarterly Chat Room. All are invited! To attend, simply go to
the Kerouac Quarterly web page and click from the link provided....hope to
see some of you there. Sincerely, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly....
Go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Then click on the link provided.....Thanks!
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:57:27 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Proust Questions answered by Proust
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Dear List,
A few days ago I posted the well-known "Proust Questionnaire" to the list. It
seems like an appropriate thinking tool to use during the introspective period
upon which a new year dawns.
James Stauffer deflected it, Paul Maher answered it, and I said I'd post
Proust's own responses in a few days, and they do follow this introduction.
A few points of information, according to what I understand: The Proust
Questions appear monthly on the back page of Vanity Fair magazine, used as an
interview tool for "celebrities." The 20 questions I posted the other day are
apparently the refined list, though I don't know who refined them. The two
completed questionnaires that follow here have some of the same and some
different questions than in the final, refined version. The first
questionnaire (15 questions) was the product of a party game from when Proust
was 13. These kids didn't waste their time on spin-the-bottle or pin-the-tail-
on-the-donkey, but went straight for the cerebral fix. The second
questionnaire was completed when Proust was 20 and is much longer.
My favorite answer is #5, from his 13-year-old list of answers. There is much
to be learned from that.
The 20 questions which I sent originally seem to be a good mix to get one's
brain going. I recommend the mental exercise for anyone at any age. If you
didn't save the 20 questions and want a copy, you can e-mail me.
..............................................
Marcel Proust's answers at 13:
1. 7 What do you regard as the lowest depth of misery?
To be separated from Mama
2. 7 Where would you like to live?
In the country of the Ideal, or, rather, of my ideal
3. 7 What is your idea of earthly happiness?
To live in contact with those I love, with the beauties of nature, with a
quantity of books and music, and to have, within easy distance, a French
theater
4. 7 To what faults do you feel most indulgent?
To a life deprived of the works of genius
5. 7 Who are your favorite heroes of fiction?
Those of romance and poetry, those who are the expression of an ideal rather
than an imitation of the real
6. 7 Who are your favorite characters in history?
A mixture of Socrates, Pericles, Mahomet, Pliny the Younger and Augustin
Thierry
7. 7 Who are your favorite heroines in real life?
A woman of genius leading an ordinary life
8. 7 Who are your favorite heroines of fiction?
Those who are more than women without ceasing to be womanly; everything that
is tender, poetic, pure and in every way beautiful
9. 7 Your favorite painter?
Meissonier
10. 7 Your favorite musician?
Mozart
11. 7 The quality you most admire in a man?
Intelligence, moral sense
12. 7 The quality you most admire in a woman?
Gentleness, naturalness, intelligence
13. 7 Your favorite virtue?
All virtues that are not limited to a sect: the universal virtues
14. 7 Your favorite occupation?
Reading, dreaming, and writing verse
15. 7 Who would you have liked to be?
Since the question does not arise, I prefer not to answer it. All the same, I
should very much have liked to be Pliny the Younger.
Proust at 20:
1. Your most marked characteristic?
A craving to be loved, or, to be more precise, to be caressed and spoiled
rather than to be admired
2. The quality you most like in a man?
Feminine charm
3. The quality you most like in a woman?
A man's virtues, and frankness in friendship
4. What do you most value in your friends?
5. Tenderness - provided they possess a physical charm which makes their
tenderness worth having
6. What is your principal defect?
Lack of understanding; weakness of will
7. What is your favorite occupation?
Loving
8. What is your dream of happiness?
Not, I fear, a very elevated one. I really haven't the courage to say what it
is, and if I did I should probably destroy it by the mere fact of putting it
into words.
9. What to your mind would be the greatest of misfortunes?
Never to have known my mother or my grandmother
10. What would you like to be?
Myself - as those whom I admire would like me to be
11. In what country would you like to live?
One where certain things that I want would be realized - and where feelings of
tenderness would always be reciprocated.
12. What is your favorite color?
Beauty lies not in colors but in thier harmony
13. What is your favorite flower?
Hers - but apart from that, all
14. What is your favorite bird?
The swallow
15. Who are your favorite prose writers?
At the moment, Anatole France and Pierre Loti
16. Who are your favorite poets?
Baudelaire and Alfred de Vigny
17. Who is your favorite hero of fiction?
Hamlet
18. Who are your favorite heroines of fiction?
Phedre (crossed out) Berenice
19. Who are your favorite composers?
Beethoven, Wagner, Schumann
20. Who are your favorite painters?
Leonardo da Vinci, Rembrandt
21. Who are your heroes in real life?
Monsieur Darlu, Monsieur Boutroux (professors)
22. Who are your favorite heroines of history?
Cleopatra
23. What are your favorite names?
I only have one at a time
24. What is it you most dislike?
My own worst qualities
25. What historical figures do you most despise?
I am not sufficiently educated to say
26. What event in military history do you most admire?
My own enlistment as a volunteer!
27. What reform do you most admire?
(no response)
28. What natural gift would you most like to possess?
Will power and irresistible charm
29. How would you like to die?
A better man than I am, and much beloved
30. What is your present state of mind?
Annoyance at having to think about myself in order to answer these questions
31. To what faults do you feel most indulgent?
Those that I understand
32. What is your motto?
I prefer not to say, for fear it might bring me bad luck.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:48:31 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CodyPomera <CodyPomera@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Proust Questions answered by Proust
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
I'd like a copy of the questions. Unfortunately I deleted them from my
mailbox. Thanks.
-George
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:18:25 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Proust Questions answered by Proust
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
The original "20 Questions"... reposited for George and everyone else. Enjoy.
......................................
1. What is your most marked characteristic?
2. What do you consider your greatest achievement?
3. When and where were you happiest?
4. What is your greatest regret?
5. What is your idea of perfect happiness?
6. What is your most treasured possession?
7. Where would you like to live?
8. What is your greatest fear?
9. What is the trait you most deplore in yourself?
10. What is the trait you most deplore in others?
11. What do you consider the most overrated virtue?
12. What is your greatest extravagance?
13. What is your favourite journey?
14. What is it that you most dislike?
15. What is the quality you most like in a man?
16. What is the quality you most like in a woman?
17. What do you most value in your friends?
18. If you were to come back as a person or thing, what do you think it would
be?
19. If you could choose what to come back as, what would it be?
20. How would you like to die?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:49:59 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: chat room
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
went to the chat room and heard you all got kicked off . i will go back
there at 9;00
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:34:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: main user <mparsons@PARTECHSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: another newcomer...
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
jodie:
congrats, glad it went well.
mick
"When I was young, I belived in God, but as I got older, it was my desire to
see God that kept me from seeing what was here on Earth"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:37:57 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Liam Ferney <s341839@STUDENT.UQ.EDU.AU>
Organization: Student
Subject: Writing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I am interested in corresponding with people who also write literature.
i Write storeis, poems and plays.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:32:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Personal for Bill Gargan, disregard
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi Bill,
Could you please send me a non-BITNET address where I can contact you? The
BITNET address keeps bouncing back.
Thanks,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:34:47 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Writing
Content-Type: text/plain
so do i..
all three...
-julian
"it is easy to fly, simply throw yourself at the ground, and miss"
-adams
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:44:06 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Robin Williams on Leno
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> I had an experience in trying to describe who burroughs was just this
> past October. This friend of mine, age 21, living in a medium size
> town, hangs out with the interesting types and the bar band crowd, was
>
> in chicago with me visiting another friend of mine. We're on our way
> for the boys to go get tattooed, I'm talking about WSB. The guy says,
>
> who? I said the writer, beat generation writer... he said what was
> the
> beat generation? I try for a while to connect things up for him ,
> even
> going so far as to connect Ken Kesey to WSB, kind of like the seven
> stages of Kevin Bacon game, it still isn't working. We get to the
> tattoo parlor, and lo and behold, there is a framed photograph of WSB
> on
> the wall. I got excited, turned to my friend, pointing at the picture
>
> emphatically. "THERE!" I said, "That's him, right there in that
> picture!"
>
> "Oh, " my friend replied. "That's the old guy who does the Nike
> commercials."
>
> And the smile just melted right off of my face.
>
> cathy
This is exactly the reason why I joined this list. I have a grand total
of two friends who even have a clue about the beat writers. Kinda makes
it hard to share thoughts and insights.
-E
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:58:48 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Robin Williams on Leno
Content-Type: text/plain
>> I had an experience in trying to describe who burroughs was just this
>> past October. This friend of mine, age 21, living in a medium size
>> town, hangs out with the interesting types and the bar band crowd,
was
>>
>> in chicago with me visiting another friend of mine. We're on our way
>> for the boys to go get tattooed, I'm talking about WSB. The guy
says,
>>
>> who? I said the writer, beat generation writer... he said what was
>> the
>> beat generation? I try for a while to connect things up for him ,
>> even
>> going so far as to connect Ken Kesey to WSB, kind of like the seven
>> stages of Kevin Bacon game, it still isn't working. We get to the
>> tattoo parlor, and lo and behold, there is a framed photograph of WSB
>> on
>> the wall. I got excited, turned to my friend, pointing at the
picture
>>
>> emphatically. "THERE!" I said, "That's him, right there in that
>> picture!"
>>
>> "Oh, " my friend replied. "That's the old guy who does the Nike
>> commercials."
>>
>> And the smile just melted right off of my face.
>>
>> cathy
>
>
>This is exactly the reason why I joined this list. I have a grand
total
>of two friends who even have a clue about the beat writers. Kinda
makes
>it hard to share thoughts and insights.
>
>-E
>
i joined this list for basically the same reason...
i was a little tired of people thinking beatniks wore berets and all had
goaties...refused to bathe...and slept in garbage cans, snapping their
fingers in their sleeping saying..."oo..skit-skat dadddy o..."
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:22:59 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Robin Williams on Leno
Content-Type: text/plain
>i joined this list for basically the same reason...
>i was a little tired of people thinking beatniks wore berets and all
had
>goaties...refused to bathe...and slept in garbage cans, snapping their
>fingers in their sleeping saying..."oo..skit-skat dadddy o..."
>-julian
>
I know what you mean about the classic idea of berets and crap.
I tried talking to one of my friends about Ginsberg once and he just
said, "What pisses me off about beat poets is how they always snap their
fingers instead of clapping after a reading..."
I nodded and smiled.
-Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:43:55 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Robin Williams on Leno
Content-Type: text/plain
>I know what you mean about the classic idea of berets and crap.
>I tried talking to one of my friends about Ginsberg once and he just
>said, "What pisses me off about beat poets is how they always snap
their
>fingers instead of clapping after a reading..."
>I nodded and smiled.
>
>-Greg
>
when all else fails...
smile and nod....
-julian
"it is easy to fly, simply throw yourself at the ground, and miss"
-adams
______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:51:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Gregory J. Conroy" <gconroy@SIUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB mentioned on Leno
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 2:28 AM 1/10/98, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>Thursday night Robin Williams was on the Tonight Show. Somehow Gus Van
>Sant's name was mentioned, and RW described GVS as like "a cross
>between Mr Rogers and William Burroughs." This seemed to elicit no
>reaction, so RW mumbled something like, "no one know knows what I'm
>talking about, do they".
I saw Good Will Hunting, which was directed by GVS and starred RW, and I
noted at the end of the credits that the film--written by Matt Damon and
Ben Affleck--was dedicated to WSB and AG.....I wonder if that that was an
idea from the writers or from Van Sant?!?
gc
Gregory J. Conroy
Editor of Publications
SIU Edwardsville
Edwardsville, IL 62026-1027
"Might as well be frank, monsieur.
It would take a miracle to get you
out of Casablanca and the Germans
have outlawed miracles."
"Imagination is the voice of daring."
--Henry Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:18:56 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Adams
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Julian,
Is the Adams quoted at the end of your message Douglas Adams, the
genius behind "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?" While not at all
Beat, that series of books is by far the funniest I've ever read.
Maggie
> "it is easy to fly, simply throw yourself at the ground, and miss"
> -adams
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:30:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB mentioned on Leno
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0dfebf197b2@[146.163.39.50]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I saw that movie too, just the other night but I didnt stick around long
enough to see that dedication. Im wondering the same thing, whose
dedication was it?
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Gregory J. Conroy wrote:
> At 2:28 AM 1/10/98, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> >Thursday night Robin Williams was on the Tonight Show. Somehow Gus Van
> >Sant's name was mentioned, and RW described GVS as like "a cross
> >between Mr Rogers and William Burroughs." This seemed to elicit no
> >reaction, so RW mumbled something like, "no one know knows what I'm
> >talking about, do they".
>
> I saw Good Will Hunting, which was directed by GVS and starred RW, and I
> noted at the end of the credits that the film--written by Matt Damon and
> Ben Affleck--was dedicated to WSB and AG.....I wonder if that that was an
> idea from the writers or from Van Sant?!?
>
> gc
>
> Gregory J. Conroy
> Editor of Publications
> SIU Edwardsville
> Edwardsville, IL 62026-1027
>
> "Might as well be frank, monsieur.
> It would take a miracle to get you
> out of Casablanca and the Germans
> have outlawed miracles."
>
> "Imagination is the voice of daring."
> --Henry Miller
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:53:06 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Adams
Content-Type: text/plain
yes, the wonderful doug adams...
btw way...i always thought that ford prefect was a lot like dean
moriarty in "on the road"...i doubt it was a concious decisioin on adams
part...but they are similar...
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:26:03 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sebastian Suarez <sebastian.suarez@SWIPNET.SE>
Subject: Beats and Jazz question
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hello
I'm new here and I am asking for a little help.
In which way are the beats influenced by jazz?
I actually don't seem to get it. All that stuff about the poetry being
influence by jazz rythms. There just seems to be no rythm at all.
Love
Sebastian
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:31:40 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sebastian Suarez <sebastian.suarez@SWIPNET.SE>
Subject: Dylan
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Read about a Dylan convention in the paper today.
It was in the 19th. One of the topics were "How Ginsberg influenced Bob"
and another was "Similarities between Kerouac and Bob"
Does anybody know anything about this?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:50:18 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
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Sebastian
Try listening more to the poets reading themselves, especially reading
with jazz, and it will come through better for you. The stuff of Jack
reading with Steve Allen playing piano, for instance, I think will show
you where this is going. You just aren't seeing in on the page, you have
to hear the line, and see the way weight shifts between word, the
differences in the time value of words. Once you hear the poets
voice--especially with Kerouac and Ginsberg, you can never hear it another
way.
J. Stauffer
Sebastian Suarez wrote:
> Hello
> I'm new here and I am asking for a little help.
> In which way are the beats influenced by jazz?
> I actually don't seem to get it. All that stuff about the poetry being
> influence by jazz rythms. There just seems to be no rythm at all.
>
> Love
> Sebastian
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:52:47 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sebastian Suarez wrote:
> I actually don't seem to get it. All that stuff about the poetry being
>
> influence by jazz rythms. There just seems to be no rythm at all.
If you haven't already done so, listen to the Kerouac box set. He was
probably the most influenced by jazz, and it shows the most in his
readings. I gained a lot of insight on his writings after hearing the
words directly from him.
-E
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:57:49 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mainbooks <Mainbooks@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Dear Sebastian, you wrote regarding the jazz connection with the beats, do you
have access to a 4 tape boxed set called "The Jack Kerouac Collection, if so,
listen to all of them and maybe it will be more clear. J. Main.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:19:39 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: KRUMMX <KRUMMX@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Writing
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
ummmmm i am a poet i guess and have taken a stab
at writing a few fiction stories in journal format ummmm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:27:13 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Life in the Communes
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Ksenija,
Here is a bonus bit of info. I thought others might be interested in this
one too, so I am sending it to the list. If not interested please don't
Flame, remember Delete.
Did I tell you what was the biggest problem at our community the Flower
Farm?
Are you ready for this?
It was the kitchen sink.
What?, you say, you couldn't you fix a kitchen sink problem among all the
dedicated, intelligent dozen adults of the community?
We tried all sorts of things to fix the problem, people left because of it,
new people came with awareness of it, and with plenty of dedication to build
a healthier life, but the problem stayed unsolved.
To start with we decided that we were not going to have any rules to follow.
The rent that we needed was so ridiculously low, the food so cheaply
available, mind expansion opportunities wherever we looked, social
companionship, sex, drugs, entertainment, everything that was eating up so
much energy and good will in the present day world was there for the asking.
It will be a snap for forward looking aware individuals who cherish this
precious opportunity, to be sufficiently sensitive to help protect our
idyllic situation.
In most important ways the cooperation and participation was indeed
inspiring. Difficult problems in personal relationships were tackled with
courage, taboos, jealousies and antipathies were conscientiously worked on.
Housecleaning did not work too well to begin with and required our first
concession to dreaded rules.
We decided to assign cleaning tasks at weekly meetings. That worked.
Everybody worked together and the Sunday meetings with subsequent work
parties became fun highlights in our community life. IT WORKED FOR
EVERYTHING BUT THE KITCHEN SINK.
In the beginning we thought all of us were responsible idealists enough to
clean up after ourselves when using the kitchen, to not leave a mess for
others. But the sink would become quickly filled with unwashed dishes. When
someone wanted to eat or drink and all the plates or glasses or cups were
unwashed in the sink, all kinds of resentments were kicking in.
At our Sunday meetings we passionately considered solutions. In two years we
tried a whole bunch of them. If you can think of a possible solution, we
probably tried it. After two years nevertheless the sink collection of dirty
dishes was as dependable as the seasons. Good sink days, long lasting series
of good sink days were inevitably vanquished by a sinkful of dirty dishes
with all the predictable attendant reactions and consequences.
Maybe someone was running late for a very important meeting or something
that had a high priority, and surely others would understand, would forgive
one insignificant cup left in the sink. Sometimes that even worked and
another person would graciously come along and wash it. Inevitably, however,
someone would come along and resentfully add his/her unwashed cup. No point
being responsible when others aren't, etc.. The chances for a third cup or
plate to be added to the mess increased very rapidly, exponentially. When
the sink pile-up became significant it became almost like a personal insult
to dedicated explorers of new lifestyles to even try to clean their own
dishes. Hey, everybody else is leaving their used up dishes for others to
clean, why shouldn't I. Perhaps we all knew better, but the knowledge did
not interfere with events.
I wouldn't say that our community failed because of it. The
commercialization of marijuana and the attendant legal problems busted us up
first, and we did last for a couple of years, but had it not been for that,
the kitchen sink loomed as the biggest threat to the realization of our
pioneering efforts and dreams.
Thought you might be interested to know that the bathroom was no problem,
sexual taboos and jealousies were dealt with in mature and often very
satisfying ways, our dreams were not going down the toilet, they ended as
nightmares in the kitchen sink.
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUnet.yu>
To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: with a delay
>you've helped a lot; i wish that i could've experienced it.
>
>> I am not sure what you mean by "prosper".
>i didn't mean financially; i wouldn't expect that. i was thinking more
>of the experience, emotions, what you learnt about yourself...but you
>answered that also.
>
>all the best...
>ksenija
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:32:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "James F. Wood 253-7886" <WOODJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU>
Subject: Writing
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
I also try to write poems, especially on Vietnam and LOVE or yes LOve
Thanks
Jim "The OLd Hippie"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:54:27 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The FYI, if you don't have the box set you can hear some snippets at
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
At 01:57 PM 1/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>Dear Sebastian, you wrote regarding the jazz connection with the beats, do you
>have access to a 4 tape boxed set called "The Jack Kerouac Collection, if so,
>listen to all of them and maybe it will be more clear. J. Main.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:20:45 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Hi Tim,
Got ta tell you the truth, I almost forgot your page. It came at me looking
real good! Now I just will have to look up your stories. Thanks for the
pleasant surprise.
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy K. Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
>The FYI, if you don't have the box set you can hear some snippets at
>
>http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
>
>
>
>At 01:57 PM 1/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>>Dear Sebastian, you wrote regarding the jazz connection with the beats, do
you
>>have access to a 4 tape boxed set called "The Jack Kerouac Collection, if
so,
>>listen to all of them and maybe it will be more clear. J. Main.
>>
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:37:11 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Life in the Communes
Comments: To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Leon,
Thanks for this wonderful piece. It fits beautifully with my own recollections
of Crow Farm outside Eugene. All boils down the the problem of dealing with
"the tragedy of the commons." Sexual jealousy, all manner of personal problems
were easier to deal with than everybodies differeing sense of responsibility for
household maintance.
Well, at Crow Farm there were the guys who would sell car batteries for beer,
rendering much of the fleet immobile--but even that was easier to deal with.
Leon Tabory wrote:
> Ksenija,
>
> Here is a bonus bit of info. I thought others might be interested in this
> one too, so I am sending it to the list. If not interested please don't
> Flame, remember Delete.
>
> Did I tell you what was the biggest problem at our community the Flower
> Farm?
>
> Are you ready for this?
>
> It was the kitchen sink.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:02:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: main user <mparsons@PARTECHSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Writing
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I saw your posting on BEAT-L and was interested to know what (in all genuine
honesty) you consider literature. The reason I ask is purely curiousity on
my part, as I do often take up the pen but hesitate to label it
"literature"... i prefer the mad ravings of a delinquent, anti- social mind.
bounce back with any thoughts.
best regards,
mick
"When I was young, I belived in God, but as I got older, it was my desire to
see God that kept me from seeing what was here on Earth"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:13:59 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Writing
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That, my friend is an awfully large question, and I have different answers on
different days.
James
main user wrote:
> I saw your posting on BEAT-L and was interested to know what (in all genuine
> honesty) you consider literature. The reason I ask is purely curiousity on
> my part, as I do often take up the pen but hesitate to label it
> "literature"... i prefer the mad ravings of a delinquent, anti- social mind.
>
> bounce back with any thoughts.
>
> best regards,
>
> mick
>
> "When I was young, I belived in God, but as I got older, it was my desire to
> see God that kept me from seeing what was here on Earth"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:23:59 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: nicosea
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
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i checked out the kerouac quarterly page last night, and never could get
into the chat room, but i was surprised to see all the negative stuff
there about gerald nicosea and his fine kerouac bio memory babe.
i'm completely at a loss as to why this is. nicosea did an excellent
piece of research and his archieves are top notch. he was the only
person to find and interview a whole bunch of people, many of whom have
died or disappeared, and while some of what he wrote may be unpleasant,
i assume he has a specific reference for everything he wrote
the archive is huge and a goldmine for researchers and should be open to
the public
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:25:49 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mary Maconnell <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>
Subject: Used bookstore finds
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
So after not having read any Burroughs I went searching and found
"Naked Lunch," "Soft Light,"(?) and "The Wild Boys." I also found
Ferlinghetti's "Coney Island of the Mind" which is excellent.
I'm starting with "The Wild Boys" but now am wondering why. I'm a little
bit into chapter 3 and it's so weird thus far and I'm wondering if there's
any advice anyone can give a person not yet versed with Burroughs.
Thanks --
Mary
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:30:16 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: nicosea
Comments: To: tkc@zipcon.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Tom
There are folks who love and revere Gerry Nicosia and those who feel very
differently. Paul Maher of the Kerouac Quarterly is one of the latter. We
have been through very ugly wars on this list repeatedly over GN's issues
with the Kerouac Estate (if I dare utter those dreaded words). I for one
would greatly hate to see it break out again. If you had been through an
"Estate War" I expect you would too. The mention of Gerry's name just seems
to start wars. Do the research on both sides, there is alot out there on
various web sites. I would hate to see it back here.
Begging, pleading
James Stauffer
Tom Christopher wrote:
> i checked out the kerouac quarterly page last night, and never could get
> into the chat room, but i was surprised to see all the negative stuff
> there about gerald nicosea and his fine kerouac bio memory babe.
>
> i'm completely at a loss as to why this is. nicosea did an excellent
> piece of research and his archieves are top notch. he was the only
> person to find and interview a whole bunch of people, many of whom have
> died or disappeared, and while some of what he wrote may be unpleasant,
> i assume he has a specific reference for everything he wrote
>
> the archive is huge and a goldmine for researchers and should be open to
> the public
>
> tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:41:17 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sorted <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: Re: Used bookstore finds
In-Reply-To: <01ISALLNAQBM8Y8DWC@mail.ewu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>I'm starting with "The Wild Boys" but now am wondering why. I'm a little
>bit into chapter 3 and it's so weird thus far and I'm wondering if there's
>any advice anyone can give a person not yet versed with Burroughs.
>
The best advice, drawing from my own experience: start at the beginning,
with Junky, and read in chronological order according to when the books
were written. of course, wsb is quoted saying his books could be cut into
at any point, but reading them in the order they were written gives a nice
picture of his style's development, and gradually introduces you to his
symbolism and the various rythms of his career. Junky is narrative, then
Yage Letters, written with Ginsberg, is narrative under the correspondence
umbrella, and then Queer, which starts out stylistically similar to Junky,
but then begins to fragment into the style that surfaces in Naked Lunch...
and so on.
worked for me!
-s
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:52:55 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Used bookstore finds
Content-Type: text/plain
>So after not having read any Burroughs I went searching and found
>"Naked Lunch," "Soft Light,"(?) and "The Wild Boys." I also found
>Ferlinghetti's "Coney Island of the Mind" which is excellent.
>
>I'm starting with "The Wild Boys" but now am wondering why. I'm a
little
>bit into chapter 3 and it's so weird thus far and I'm wondering if
there's
>any advice anyone can give a person not yet versed with Burroughs.
>
>Thanks --
>Mary
>
One word:
Heroin.
-Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:04:25 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mary Maconnell <mmaconnell@MAIL.EWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Used bookstore finds
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0e04ae75788@[206.190.9.145]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Yeah, but what if I couldn't find Junky and don't have the heart to buy
that and the others new? :)
Mary
(P.S. Greg's comment was pretty damned funny!)
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Sorted wrote:
> >I'm starting with "The Wild Boys" but now am wondering why. I'm a little
> >bit into chapter 3 and it's so weird thus far and I'm wondering if there's
> >any advice anyone can give a person not yet versed with Burroughs.
> >
>
>
> The best advice, drawing from my own experience: start at the beginning,
> with Junky, and read in chronological order according to when the books
> were written. of course, wsb is quoted saying his books could be cut into
> at any point, but reading them in the order they were written gives a nice
> picture of his style's development, and gradually introduces you to his
> symbolism and the various rythms of his career. Junky is narrative, then
> Yage Letters, written with Ginsberg, is narrative under the correspondence
> umbrella, and then Queer, which starts out stylistically similar to Junky,
> but then begins to fragment into the style that surfaces in Naked Lunch...
>
> and so on.
>
> worked for me!
>
> -s
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:12:47 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
As many of you may have figured out from his posts this weekend, David
experienced a "manic" phase. He is currently in the Salina Regional
Medical Center for a couple days to be evaluated and get his medication
on track again. He asked that I notify all his e-mail friends and let
them know of his situation and this seemed the best way to do it. We
expect he will be home soon and he will be in touch with all of you at
that time. If, for any reason, he is in the hospital for a longer period
of time, I will post his full mailing address. Let's all give as much
support to him as we possibly can and hope he is able to be back with us
soon.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:56:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: nicosea
Comments: To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
what do you guys think? how about an amendment?
>Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:53:51 +0000
>From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
>Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
>To: randy royal <randyr@southeast.net>
>Subject: Re: nicosea
>
>Randy
>
>I would certainly second that one!
>
>some rule such as "no postings on the Kerouac Estate Controversy except the
>posting of actual results of actuals trials."
>
>James
>
>randy royal wrote:
>
>> well said. perhaps somebody could talk bill gargan into adding an extra
>> clause like this on the registration message?
>> randy
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:03:27 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Diane
Thanks for the note, and to paraphrase, tell David, we are with him in the
Salina Regional Medical Center . . .
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:14:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Chat Room is Open Now!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
for those who want to try it...it is open now.
Go to the web page below,
Click on the link that says Chat Room,
Once it opens up, type in a nickname, choose a version, I recommend the
"Lite" version for faster loading,
It should open up to the page connecting you to the room.
Type in your say and hit ENTER.
Hope to see some of you there! Paul...
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:11:09 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Can David receive e-mail in the hospital? Probably not, but I thought I'd
ask. Best wishes to you, David
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 5:03 PM
Subject: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
>As many of you may have figured out from his posts this weekend, David
>experienced a "manic" phase. He is currently in the Salina Regional
>Medical Center for a couple days to be evaluated and get his medication
>on track again. He asked that I notify all his e-mail friends and let
>them know of his situation and this seemed the best way to do it. We
>expect he will be home soon and he will be in touch with all of you at
>that time. If, for any reason, he is in the hospital for a longer period
>of time, I will post his full mailing address. Let's all give as much
>support to him as we possibly can and hope he is able to be back with us
>soon.
>DC
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:12:52 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: nicosea
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I would include no talking about how much you like to whine about the so
called estate battle. There are more posts like than than acrimonious
estate battles.
Or how bout no more posts about what books get stole the most or who is
beat and so on and so on and scoobydoobydo on
where does it stop.
Why the keepers of the estate hate Nicosia so much up to the irrational
level I have seen is hard to understand.
But of course Nicosia put them on the map and is lining their pockets.
And of course Nicosia wasn't alone (Charters, Lee and Gifford, McNally also
share in the making the estate a profitable enterprise). Without the
scholars and working writers like Nicosia and aforesaid folks kerouac would
not be near the halfway decent cash cow he is today.
The estate folks should fall down on their kneww and thank jerry Nicosia.
>what do you guys think? how about an amendment?
>>Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:53:51 +0000
>>From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
>>Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
>>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
>>To: randy royal <randyr@southeast.net>
>>Subject: Re: nicosea
>>
>>Randy
>>
>>I would certainly second that one!
>>
>>some rule such as "no postings on the Kerouac Estate Controversy except the
>>posting of actual results of actuals trials."
>>
>>James
>>
>>randy royal wrote:
>>
>>> well said. perhaps somebody could talk bill gargan into adding an extra
>>> clause like this on the registration message?
>>> randy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:17:16 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Marie Countryman
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I just wanted to let you all know that I am going to meet Marie
Countryman in Chicago on her return trip home. She has a three-hour
layover there, which I am sure will be spent downing many pints,
talking, laughing, and getting her psyched up for the rest of her
journey.
I heard from her the other day, she was saying something about probably
being incommunicado until she returns home, as she was spending the last
few days of her stay somewhere other than where she had been staying.
(I'm pretty sure this info is correct. Leon, can you verify this?)
She should be back home I figure by Sunday night or monday morning.
I'll let you all know how the meeting goes, and if any of you have
personal messages and/or encouragement for our wandering Marie, please
e-mail them to me by Thursday night so I can print them out to take to
her when I see her on Saturday.
Later, dudes,
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:41:31 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: nicosia
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy,
And why Nicosia hates the heirs (which is more accurate than keepers at least
until the court speaks) is equally unfathomable. That is what makes this debate
so hopeless. Sort of reminds one of Bosnia or Northern Ireland.
James Stauffer
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> Why the keepers of the estate hate Nicosia so much up to the irrational
> level I have seen is hard to understand.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:51:38 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: nicosea
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
gosh everybody, lets lay off the espresso and take a bonghit, i
shouldnta spoke outta turn
apologies
<snipp'd for arts sake> wrote:
>
> I would include battle posts like books get
> beat and so on and so on and scoobydoobydo on
>
> where does it stop.
>
> Why the keepers of the hate so much up to the irrational
> level I have seen is hard to understand.
>
> But of course, put them on the map, lining their pockets alone,
> share in the
> scholars and working folks kerouac would
> be near the cow. he is today.
>
> The folks should fall down on their knees and thank an amendment?
> >>I would certainly second that one!
> >>
> >>some rule such as "Kerouac
> >>posting of actual results of actuals trials."
> >>> well said. perhaps somebody could talk like this on the registration
message?
thanx to ol bull lee for the inspiration
geez if i wanted to freak people out i woulda just posted more christian
stuff
love and peace
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:34:08 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: nicosia
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Tom, I wasn't and didn't respond to your post about the estate. And If you
think my post in response to James' was somehow unmellow I didn't percieve
or mean it that way.
My point in this has always been that I like to hear about the estate
battle and accept the vitriol soewed at Jerry and his masterly rhetorically
heavy responses as part of the package.
My point is also that, sure, I know some people don't like controversy and
shy away from any conflict. Consequently they don't like hearing the
argument going on when it is going on.
But some people like it and some people like other things. There are posts
and topics I don't care about too much but wouldn't ever think to say "
Please don't talk about that"
Feel free to "freak us out"
No need to apologize, and it seems actually you are the one freaked out in
this instance.
I guess the crack about the estate boys getting down on their knees to
thank Nicosia was over the top but that's the fun part. Nicosia and the
other biographers definately had a strong role in bringing kerouac's work
to the fore and due in part to that kerouac is more popular than ever.
But as you know the real reason for my post was so Tom could use the words
to make his cool cutup spop brosady as seen below.
>gosh everybody, lets lay off the espresso and take a bonghit, i
>shouldnta spoke outta turn
>
>apologies
>
>
>
><snipp'd for arts sake> wrote:
>>
>> I would include battle posts like books get
>> beat and so on and so on and scoobydoobydo on
>>
>> where does it stop.
>>
>> Why the keepers of the hate so much up to the irrational
>> level I have seen is hard to understand.
>>
>> But of course, put them on the map, lining their pockets alone,
>> share in the
>> scholars and working folks kerouac would
>> be near the cow. he is today.
>>
>> The folks should fall down on their knees and thank an amendment?
>
>> >>I would certainly second that one!
>> >>
>> >>some rule such as "Kerouac
>> >>posting of actual results of actuals trials."
>
>> >>> well said. perhaps somebody could talk like this on the registration
> message?
>
>thanx to ol bull lee for the inspiration
>
>geez if i wanted to freak people out i woulda just posted more christian
>stuff
>
>love and peace
>
>tkc
Bakatcha,
TKG
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:34:20 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac Buddhism vs. Catholicism
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
How does the first Noble Truth that all life is suffering differ from
Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in
pain together until now."?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:57:40 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa--Update
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi everyone,
It looks like David will be in the hospital for more than a couple of
days. Here is the address for any of you that want to send him cards,
best wishes, things to cheer him up, etc. Phone calls are not a good
idea at this point and he does not have access to e-mail in the hospital.
Anyone wishing to send him an e-mail message can send it to me and I will
print them out, along with the many I have already received, and get them
to him. His address is:
David Rhaesa
Salina Regional Medical Center
Room 107, North Wing
400 S. Santa Fe
Salina, KS 67401
Let's all keep him in our thoughts and prayers. I'm sure all of the
positive vibes will help a great deal!
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 06:36:28 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Marie Countryman
Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<<SNIP>>
>I heard from her the other day, she was saying something about probably
>being incommunicado until she returns home, as she was spending the last
>few days of her stay somewhere other than where she had been staying.
>(I'm pretty sure this info is correct. Leon, can you verify this?)
>
cathy
To the best of my knowledge:
marie is visiting Ann Marie since Sunday. Ann Marie is not connected to the
internet. Tonight James will take her to visit him at Redwood City. She
probably can get to her Hot Mail account at James's. She leaves on the
Zephyr for Chicago early Thursday morning.
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:30:27 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
In-Reply-To: <199801121825.TAA27703@mb05.swip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
A good explanation of that can be found in Good Blonde and Others, the
piece entitled, "The History of Bop" or something like that.
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Sebastian Suarez wrote:
> Hello
> I'm new here and I am asking for a little help.
> In which way are the beats influenced by jazz?
> I actually don't seem to get it. All that stuff about the poetry being
> influence by jazz rythms. There just seems to be no rythm at all.
>
> Love
> Sebastian
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:47:23 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa--Update
Reply to message from dcarter@TOGETHER.NET of Tue, 13 Jan
I must have missed soemthing...what happened to him???
Diane. (H)
>
>Hi everyone,
>
>It looks like David will be in the hospital for more than a couple of
>days. Here is the address for any of you that want to send him cards,
>best wishes, things to cheer him up, etc. Phone calls are not a good
>idea at this point and he does not have access to e-mail in the hospital.
>Anyone wishing to send him an e-mail message can send it to me and I will
>print them out, along with the many I have already received, and get them
>to him. His address is:
>
>David Rhaesa
>Salina Regional Medical Center
>Room 107, North Wing
>400 S. Santa Fe
>Salina, KS 67401
>
>Let's all keep him in our thoughts and prayers. I'm sure all of the
>positive vibes will help a great deal!
>DC
>
>
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:49:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa--Update
Comments: To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu>
In-Reply-To: <199801131547.KAA09567@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Im wondering the same thing...
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Diane M. Homza wrote:
> Reply to message from dcarter@TOGETHER.NET of Tue, 13 Jan
>
> I must have missed soemthing...what happened to him???
>
> Diane. (H)
>
>
> >
> >Hi everyone,
> >
> >It looks like David will be in the hospital for more than a couple of
> >days. Here is the address for any of you that want to send him cards,
> >best wishes, things to cheer him up, etc. Phone calls are not a good
> >idea at this point and he does not have access to e-mail in the hospital.
> >Anyone wishing to send him an e-mail message can send it to me and I will
> >print them out, along with the many I have already received, and get them
> >to him. His address is:
> >
> >David Rhaesa
> >Salina Regional Medical Center
> >Room 107, North Wing
> >400 S. Santa Fe
> >Salina, KS 67401
> >
> >Let's all keep him in our thoughts and prayers. I'm sure all of the
> >positive vibes will help a great deal!
> >DC
> >
> >
>
> --
> "This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
> --Jack Kerouac
> Diane Marie Homza
> ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:37:37 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Fw: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
David will be in the hospital for about 2 weeks. i think it would really
>help him to receive cards, letters, little gifties while he's there. just
>be sure that there is nothing wildly out-there thinking-wise. he just need
>to know what a wide support base he has, and how much we believe he'll be
>back to himself in no time. so send him you're love and encouragement and
>anything grounding you can think of.
>
>will keep you all posted as i get more info.
>
>ciao, sherri
>
>Salina Regional Health Center
>400 S. Santa Fe, Room 107, North Wing
>Salina Regional Health Center,
>400 S. Santa Fe
>Salina, KS 67401.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 7:10 PM
>Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
>
>
>>Can David receive e-mail in the hospital? Probably not, but I thought I'd
>>ask. Best wishes to you, David
>>
>>leon
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
>>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>>Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 5:03 PM
>>Subject: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
>>
>>
>>>As many of you may have figured out from his posts this weekend, David
>>>experienced a "manic" phase. He is currently in the Salina Regional
>>>Medical Center for a couple days to be evaluated and get his medication
>>>on track again. He asked that I notify all his e-mail friends and let
>>>them know of his situation and this seemed the best way to do it. We
>>>expect he will be home soon and he will be in touch with all of you at
>>>that time. If, for any reason, he is in the hospital for a longer period
>>>of time, I will post his full mailing address. Let's all give as much
>>>support to him as we possibly can and hope he is able to be back with us
>>>soon.
>>>DC
>>>
>>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:59:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
In-Reply-To: <036444339150d18UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Pardon my ignorance but whats a manic phase?
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:37:58 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Kerouac Buddhism vs. Catholicism
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> How does the first Noble Truth that all life is suffering differ from
> Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in
> pain together until now."?
it doesn't. what separates buddhism from christianity is the solution
(tho that's the wrong word) to the question, "ok, then, what next)
buddhism is a good system of psychology, and anyone can benefit from the
buddhist practice of sitting still, shutting up and listening to and
monitoring one's thoughts for an hour (or twelve), and checking out how
our thoughts structure the world as we understand it
in this here 1998 world we're told to listen to our inner child.
buddhism tells us we got no inner child, just a chattering monkey, and
that said monkey ain't always the most purposeful thing to listen to
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:43:42 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
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there's a (japanese?) group called UFO that did a great sampled
soundtrack to an old kerouac reading, which i think is part of the
subterranians
for me, they capture kerouac's spoken rythms much better than the older
stuff on the boxed rhino set
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:15:48 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa--Update
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As some of you have asked why he is in the hospital and about what a
"manic" phase is, I'll try to descibe it as best I can. David suffers
from a mental disorder, sometimes described as bi-polar condition or
manic depressive, although I hestitate to label it myself. He has been
functioning well on medication. Any change in medication or anxiety or
simply a change in body chemistry can throw him off. No one truly knows
what causes these phases. A manic phase is when he becomes irrational and
out of touch with reality and is unable to function normally on a day to
day basis. His emotions fluxuate wildly. David voluntarily admitted
himself to the hospital for evaluation and the doctors will try to get
him stabilizated on the right combination of meds. As you may have
noticed in the messages he sent to the list this weekend his mind is
simply in a different place and his thought processes are not coherent.
As Sherri pointed out it will probably be a couple weeks before he
adjusts to new medication. In the meantime let's all send him all of our
best wishes and let him know he is not alone and that we are with him.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:15:18 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
Nancy, David is a bipolar manic depressive. sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
>Pardon my ignorance but whats a manic phase?
>~Nancy
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:08:25 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Friends of David Rhaesa
Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Please, Diane, tell to David
my best wishes he comes back
to us.
David,
cari saluti dall'Italia,
dal tuo amico Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:35:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
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At 10:59 AM 1/13/98 -0500, Nancy wrote:
>Pardon my ignorance but whats a manic phase?
It is at the opposite pole from depression. It is
an unusally high state of exhilaration. People
in a manic phase are expansive to an extent that
is out of character, and instead of feeling fatigued
and listless, the manic person is full of energy.
Another symptom of a manic phase is the person
speaks fast, and dramatically, often with many
jokes and puns. It is extremely rare that people
only suffer from manic episodes, depression usually
alternates with mania. Bipolar disorder is also known
as manic-depressive disorder. There is evidence that
supports a genetic connection. There have been studies
conducted with twins that showed that where one twin
from monozygotic twins had bipolar disorder, so did the
other, in more than 70 percent of cases. In the studies
of dizygotic twins where one twin has bipolar disorder, both
twins have bipolar disorder in less than 15 percent of cases.
It is treated with lithium bicarbonate, and if this doesn't
work there are two other drugs that are commonly used
to help dampen severe manic episodes: carbamazepine
(Tegretol) and valproate (Depakene). Both are anti-
convulsants. The use of antidepressants can cause
the risk of triggering manic episodes.
There are a number of artists and writers who probably
suffered from bipolar disorder, they are: poets Lord
Byron and Anne Sexton, novelists Virginia Woolf and
Ernest Hemingway, composers Peter Ilich Tchaikovsky
and Sergey Rachmaninoff, and painters Amedeo
Modigliani and Jackson Pollock.
Hope this was a help?
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:38:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan
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At 07:31 PM 1/12/98 +0100, Sebastian Suarez wrote:
>Read about a Dylan convention in the paper today.
>It was in the 19th.
<snip>
>Does anybody know anything about this?
It is taking place at Stanford and I can't
remember the date that it takes place.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:48:05 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan
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If my memory serves it was last Monday, but I don't have the paper in
front of me
James
M. Cakebread wrote:
> At 07:31 PM 1/12/98 +0100, Sebastian Suarez wrote:
>
> >Read about a Dylan convention in the paper today.
> >It was in the 19th.
> <snip>
> >Does anybody know anything about this?
>
> It is taking place at Stanford and I can't
> remember the date that it takes place.
>
> Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:57:24 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Dimock <juancito@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
de-lurking for a moment to wish David best wishes. We miss you Race!
Jim
There but for the grace of God goes I...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:29:53 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
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>Pardon my ignorance but whats a manic phase?
>~Nancy
Hi Nancy,
A problem with answers by non experts is that sometimes not everything is
correct and may lead to further confusion.
Do you realize how much interesting information is available at your
fingertips on the internet? Amazing! You want to know about bipolar disorder
(formerly Manic Depressive Disorder)? all the info you want is at your
fingertips. Infoseek gave me the best results when I typed Bipolar Disorder.
I am attaching a web page by an artist who suffers from it. I know you
already have two answers, but one of them includes symptoms that are from
other complicating factors, not strictly from Bipolar problems. The URL is
from Mayo Clinic, a very reliable source.
http://www.mayohealth.org/mayo/9609/htm/bipolar.htm
Hopefully I am not adding confusion
leon
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
>
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=0D =0D <HTML> =0D<HEAD><TITLE>Bipolar Disorder</TITLE></HEAD> =0D<BODY =
TEXT=3D"#F9AEAC" LINK=3D"#E6BFBE" VLINK=3D"#C6D2F3" ALINK=3D"#000000" =
BACKGROUND=3D"Gifs/rotten_eggs.jpg"><!-- BEGIN BODY HEADER SECTION =
-->=0D<!-- BEGIN MAIN BODY SECTION --><center><!-- Graphic Tag --><IMG =
WIDTH=3D343 HEIGHT=3D50 ALT=3D"Part of the Bipolar Information Network" =
SRC=3D"Gifs/binbanner.gif" =
BORDER=3D2></center><BR><BR>=0D=0D=0D<BR>=0D<BR><TABLE =
BORDER=3D5>=0D<TR><TD>=0D<IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/TwoFaces.jpg" height=3D160 =
width=3D260 align=3Dleft ALT=3D"two faces"><B><FONT SIZE=3D7 =
COLOR=3D"#C6D2F3"><CENTER>Bipolar Disorder:</CENTER><BR></FONT>=0D =
<B><FONT SIZE=3D6 COLOR=3D"#C6D2F3"><I><CENTER>The Artist Formerly Known =
as Manic =
Depression</CENTER></I></B></FONT></B></TD></TR>=0D</TABLE>=0D<BR>=0D<BR>=
<CENTER>Updated Sept. 29, 1997</CENTER><P>=0D=0D<!-- Horizontal Line Tag =
--><HR ALIGN=3DCenter>=0D<BR><FONT SIZE=3D4>=0D<BR>=0D<CENTER><B>Are you =
in the St. Louis area? Visit us at The Empowerment Center.<BR>=0D Or =
call us at the <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.dmda.org">Depressive and Manic Depressive Association =
(DMDA)</A>.=0D</CENTER><BR>=0D=0D=0D<!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.ndmda.org/"><CENTER>Or visit the National DMDA =
Site.</CENTER></A><BR><BR>=0D=0D=0D<CENTER><IMG =
SRC=3D"Gifs/flurline.gif" WIDTH=3D448 HEIGHT=3D23 =
ALT=3D"divider"></CENTER>=0D<BR>=0D<BR>=0D=0D=0D<UL>Bipolar disorder, or =
manic depression, is a mental illness affecting as many as 3 million =
Americans, and for one-third of patients, it takes over a decade to =
finally get the correct diagnosis.<P></UL>=0D=0D<UL>It is characterized =
by mood swings, from deep, suicidal depressions, to grand, delusional =
manias. Some researchers theorize that bipolar disorder is not one, but =
a group of many similar illnesses.<P></UL>=0D=0D<UL>The disease, thought =
to result from an imbalance of chemicals in the brain called =
neurotransmitters, often begins to make itself known in the late teens, =
but the average age of diagnosis is 28. It is not uncommon to find a =
trail of destruction left behind during those years of misdiagnosis, as =
well as finding relief in self-medication (alcohol, prescription and =
illegal drugs)<P></UL>=0D=0D=0D<UL>As many as 20 percent will eventually =
die from this disease, committing suicide to escape its torment. There =
is hope, however, with proper medical treatment and support from one's =
loved ones.</UL>=0D<BR></B>=0D<BR><BR>=0D=0D=0D<BR><CENTER><IMG =
SRC=3D"Gifs/flurline.gif" WIDTH=3D448 HEIGHT=3D23 =
ALT=3D"divider"></CENTER>=0D=0D<BR><BR>=0D=0D<B>=0D=0D<FONT =
SIZE=3D5><CENTER><B>Creativity and bipolar =
disorder</B></CENTER><BR>=0D</FONT><BR>=0D=0D<BLOCKQUOTE>=0DI am =
interested in the connection between bipolar disorder and artistic =
creativity. Perhaps it's my way of trying to find the silver lining in =
that constant storm known as bipolar =
disorder.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>=0D<BR>=0D=0D <IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" =
ALIGN=3DLEFT HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D12 ALT=3D"Button"> <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"bipolar/blessings.html">Blessings from the Dark =
Side</A>=0D<UL>=0DThis is a book review of Kaye Gibbons' book, "Sights =
Unseen." But it's more than a review, taking a look at how the author =
channels manic depression into a creative river of prose.</UL><BR>=0D=0D =
<IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" ALIGN=3DABS MIDDLE HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D12 =
ALT=3D"Button"> <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"http://frostbite.umd.edu/~cass/text/mania.html">Manic depression =
and creativity</A>. <ul>=0DThis article by Kay Jamison. examines the =
link between the illness and artistic personality. </ul><BR>=0D=0D=0D=0D =
=0D <IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" ALIGN=3DLEFT HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D12 =
ALT=3D"Button"> From <!-- Link Tag --><A HREF=3D"ptoday.html">Psychology =
Today</A><UL>More on the link between art and madness.</UL>=0D =
<BR>=0D=0D=0D <IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" ALIGN=3DLEFT HEIGHT=3D12 =
WIDTH=3D12 ALT=3D"Button"> <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"bipolar/discover.html">Discover Magazine</A><UL>This article =
takes an in-depth look at the link between bipolar disorder and =
creativity. It examines studies, and looks at both the positive and =
negative aspects of the issue.</UL>=0D <BR><BR>=0D=0D<CENTER><IMG =
SRC=3D"Gifs/flurline.gif" WIDTH=3D448 HEIGHT=3D23 =
ALT=3D"divider"></CENTER>=0D<BR><BR>=0D<BR>=0D=0D=0D<B><CENTER><FONT =
SIZE=3D5>Medical issues surrounding bipolar =
disorder</FONT></CENTER></B><BR>=0D<BR>=0D=0D <IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" =
ALIGN=3DLEFT HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D12 ALT=3D"Button"> An article from <!-- =
Link Tag --><A HREF=3D"ap.html">Associated Press</A> <UL>This article =
examines the reasons for the prolonged delay in diagnosis of bipolar =
disorder.</UL>=0D <BR>=0D=0D=0D=0D <IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" =
ALIGN=3DLEFT HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D12 ALT=3D"Button"><!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"bipolar/lking.html">Larry King</A> <UL> In April, Larry King did =
a show on depression with Mike Wallace, Naomi Judd, Art Buchwald and Dr. =
Kay Jamison. This is the transcript of that program.</UL>=0D <BR> =
=0D=0D=0D <IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" ALIGN=3DLEFT HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D12 =
ALT=3D"Button"> <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"bipolar/relapse.html">Relapse</A><UL>An interesting article on =
relapse during the use of SSRIs, and the strategies doctors use to =
combat that "poop-out" so many of us have experienced.=0D</UL> <BR>=0D =
<IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" ALIGN=3DLEFT HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D12 =
ALT=3D"Button"> <!-- Link Tag --><A HREF=3D"bipolar/post.html">Kay =
Jamison</A> <UL>A great interview with Kay Jamison, from the Saturday =
Evening Post. </UL> <BR>=0D=0D=0D <IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" =
ALIGN=3DLEFT HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D12 ALT=3D"Button"> <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.sltrib.com/96/JUN/09/twr/01120223.htm">Battling Own =
illness</A>. <UL>From the AP, a fascinating account of Kay Jamison's =
struggle with bipolar illness, and her decision to go public. Also, =
Daniel Fisher of the National Empowerment Center. This article addresses =
the rates of illness among mental health workers, including the study =
that showed psychiatrists had the highest rate of =
suicide.</UL><BR>=0D=0D <IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" ALIGN=3DLEFT =
HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D12 ALT=3D"Button"><A =
HREF=3D"http://reason.org/1296.html">From the Reason Foundation</A><UL> =
Increasing consumer choice leads to improved quality and lower costs for =
services to the mentally ill.</UL><BR>=0D=0D <IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" =
ALIGN=3DLEFT HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D12 ALT=3D"Button"> <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"bipolar/folate.html">Folate Deficiency</A><UL>An important =
article on the connection of folate and mood disorders. Low folate can =
cause psychiatric symptoms, but many docs don't seem to know this (or =
care). And some psych meds can *cause* depletion of folate. I have a =
severe form of this anemia from the prolonged use of Tegretol, so I know =
firsthand the impact it has on one's physical health.</UL><BR>=0D=0D=0D =
<IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/u144.gif" ALIGN=3DLEFT HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D12 =
ALT=3D"Button"> <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"bipolar/haunted.html">Haunted</A> <UL>Haunted is an excerpt from =
Dr. Laura Slater's book "Welcome to My Country." This piece of writing =
will take your breath away. Slater has to battle her own demons and face =
her own past as a mental patient, during her time now as a therapist. =
</UL>=0D <BR>=0D<CENTER><IMG SRC=3D"Gifs/flurline.gif" WIDTH=3D448 =
HEIGHT=3D23 ALT=3D"divider"></CENTER>=0D<BR>=0D<BR>=0D=0D=0D<FONT =
SIZE=3D5><center> Links to other bipolar sites =
</center>=0D</FONT><BR>=0D<BR>=0DBelow you will find a few links to the =
best bipolar areas on the web. These links are very comprehensive and =
complete and represent bipolar disorder at its best (or worse, depending =
on your viewpoint). <BR>=0D<BR>=0D=0D <LI> <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.frii.com/~parrot/bip.html">Joy Ikelman's Cybersite on =
Bipolar Disorder</A>. Joy is one of the most special people I've ever =
known. She is truly one of the beautiful souls, and this site reflects =
that beauty. Good, solid information on bipolar disorder, Joy's famous =
files (media file, famous people, the affective spectrum), and most =
importantly - Joy's personal experience with bipolar disorder. Don't =
miss her section on the bipolar family tree! <BR> <BR>=0D <LI> <!-- =
Link Tag --><A HREF=3D"http://www.moodswing.org/">The Bipolar FAQ</A> - =
everything you wanted to know about bipolar disorder, but were too manic =
to ask. Plus more! This is Moodswing Org, and my buddy Barry has =
listings for national advocacy and support groups. A fantastic site! =
<BR> <BR>=0D=0D=0D=0D=0D <LI> <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.pendulum.org">The Pendulum Pages</A>, your =
comprehensive information source for the bipolar disorders and other =
mood disorders. These pages form part of the information associated with =
the Pendulum Mailing List (my home away from home). My good friend Doug =
Barlow maintains this site, and you'll be blown away by the amount of =
info here. <BR> <BR>=0D <LI> <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.tcnj.edu/~ellisles/BipolarPlanet/">Unofficial =
Pendulum Bipolar Planet</A>, a swingin' place for all our moods. Can =
Bipolar Disorder be fun? You bet it can, and Sister Leslie is here to =
prove it! Great info, and a sometimes lighthearted look at bipolar. =
(Hey, if we can't use our senses of humor, then what's life worth??!) =
<BR> <BR>=0D <LI> <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.slip.net/~sandpipr/">The Phunny Pharm</A>, where =
manic depression is the house specialty. If you've gotta get committed, =
this Psyberspace Psanitarium is the place to go! Much better than the =
state hospital, and the Haldol is complimentary. <BR> <BR>=0D <LI> =
Almost Human, the original bipolar psychic. No explanation =
available...you gotta see it to appreciate it. And if you don't find it =
hilarious, you are probably not a TRUE bipolar and you have no sense of =
humor. Go back to your calculus. Thank you, and <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/3369/">here's</A> the address. =
<BR>=0D<BR></B>=0D=0D<BR>=0D<center><!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.cmhc.com/"><!-- Graphic Tag --><IMG WIDTH=3D75 =
HEIGHT=3D84 ALT=3D"MHN Badge" =
SRC=3D"Gifs/mhnet2.gif"></A></center><BR>=0D=0D<CENTER><B>Proud =
recipient of the Blue Maxwell and Winds of Change =
Awards</B></CENTER><BR>=0D<CENTER><!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6140/award.htm"><!-- Graphic =
Tag --><IMG WIDTH=3D132 HEIGHT=3D90 ALT=3D"Blue Maxwell Award" =
SRC=3D"Gifs/award1.gif"></A> <A HREF=3D" =
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/9737 "><IMG =
SRC=3D"Gifs/JOAWARD4.GIF" =
ALIGN=3DABSMIDDLE></A>=0D<BR>=0D=0D<BR>=0D=0D<center><B><!-- Link Tag =
--><A HREF=3D"index.html">Home</A> | <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"menu.html">Menu</A> | <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"shocked.html">Shocked</A> | <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"mental.html">Mental</A> | <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"buffet.html">Int'l</A> | <!-- Link Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"liberals.html">Liberals</A> | <!-- MailTo Tag --><A =
HREF=3D"MAILTO:juli@i1.net">Feedback</A></FONT></B></center> <BR>=0D =
<BR>=0D<HR WIDTH=3D70% ALIGN=3DCENTER><BR>=0D<BR><BLOCKQUOTE>=0D<B>Quick =
Poll! </B><BR>=0DThis poll is NOT a scientific survey. I'm just curious =
how many bipolars also have migraines. <BR>=0DPlease answer ONLY if you =
are bipolar.<BR><BR>=0D</BLOCKQUOTE>=0D=0D <!-- QPoll Segment Begin =
-->=0D <table border=3D"1" cellpadding=3D"10" width=3D"500"><tr>=0D =
<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"250" bgcolor=3D"#3427A4">=0D =
<center><b>=0D Do you suffer from migraine headaches?<p>=0D =
Choose one.<p></b>=0D <a =
href=3D"http://qstats.dreamcraft.net/">=0D <img border=3D"1" =
align=3D"center" =
src=3D"http://qstats.dreamcraft.net/images/q.gif"></a>=0D =
Poll courtesy of QStats=0D </b></center></td>=0D <td =
width=3D"250" bgcolor=3D"#3427A4">=0D <form method=3D"POST"=0D =
action=3D"http://qstats.dreamcraft.net/english/qpoll.asp">=0D =
<p>=0D <input type=3D"hidden" name=3D"pollid" =
value=3D"215918698">=0D <input type=3D"hidden" name=3D"id" =
value=3D"J215918698">=0D <input type=3D"radio" name=3D"r" =
value=3D"v0">=0D Yes<br>=0D <input type=3D"radio" =
name=3D"r" value=3D"v1">=0D No<br>=0D <p>=0D =
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------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BD2027.55583760--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:17:10 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
Jim - David has no access to e-mail - you might want to send him a note or
card at the hospital... ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Dimock <juancito@JUNO.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
>de-lurking for a moment to wish David best wishes. We miss you Race!
>
>Jim
>There but for the grace of God goes I...
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:43:48 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DawnDR <DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Thanks for explaining, Mike. The terms are often just loosely applied and
understanding is difficult.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:20:18 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Ira Hayes
John Prine does a wonderful version of this song.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:26:40 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg in America
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:46:31 -0500 from
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
It's an early gossipy biographical sketch of Allen. Printed in England under t
he title Pater Familias, I think.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1988 07:08:46 -0600
Reply-To: jgardner@doane.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jodie R Gardner <JGardner@DOANE.EDU>
Organization: Doane College
Subject: Existentialism...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Does anyone know anything about existentialism and it's importance in
the Beat movement and culture? If so, please explain and help me out
here. Thanks!
*jodie*
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:57:07 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Liam Ferney <s341839@STUDENT.UQ.EDU.AU>
Organization: Student
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sebastian Suarez wrote:
>
> Hello
> I'm new here and I am asking for a little help.
> In which way are the beats influenced by jazz?
> I actually don't seem to get it. All that stuff about the poetry being
> influence by jazz rythms. There just seems to be no rythm at all.
>
> Love
> Sebastian
Kerouac's Mexico City Blues and most of his spontatneous prose was
influenced by jazz. both in the way they improvised rather than pausing
and carefully thinking over every next note. Mexico Ciy Blues was
bascially just a collection of improvised chorus's based around free
association. Ginsberg was also influenced by jazz. Note the long
phrasing in Howl. This is reminiscent of the long blows taken by jazz
musicans of the time. Also what jazz do you mean ? you may be listening
to the wrong type of jazz given its extensive musical history. The Beats
were basically concerned by a stlye of jazz known as bop. Charlie Parker
and early Miles Davis. Finally a little quote to better illustrate my
point.
"I want to be considered a jazz poet blowing in a long blues in an
afternoon jam session on Sunday. I take 242 choruses; my ideas vary and
sometimes roll from chorus to chorus or from halfway though a chorus to
halfway into the next."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:02:36 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Liam Ferney <s341839@STUDENT.UQ.EDU.AU>
Organization: Student
Subject: Re: Used bookstore finds
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mary Maconnell wrote:
>
> So after not having read any Burroughs I went searching and found
> "Naked Lunch," "Soft Light,"(?) and "The Wild Boys." I also found
> Ferlinghetti's "Coney Island of the Mind" which is excellent.
>
> I'm starting with "The Wild Boys" but now am wondering why. I'm a little
> bit into chapter 3 and it's so weird thus far and I'm wondering if there's
> any advice anyone can give a person not yet versed with Burroughs.
>
> Thanks --
> Mary
Forget everything you know. Just read the book and become immersed in
the fantasy's Burrough's creates. I have npt read the Wild Bunch but I
have read other books by Burroughs and often times they don't follow a
linear path which makes it hard for our indoctrinated minds to grasp.
Good luck and have fun
Nothing is true
Everything is permitted
W.S.B.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:51:44 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 13-Jan-98 4:27:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
JGardner@doane.edu writes:
<< Does anyone know anything about existentialism and it's importance in
the Beat movement and culture? If so, please explain and help me out
here. Thanks!
*jodie*
>>
Jodie, this question was posed to you so that you YOURSELF would seek
knowledge of existentialism and how that might have affected a certain group.
Why not read about existentialism, read Beat literature with an eye to seeing
the existential or nonexistential theme therein, and reach your own
conclusion? Otherwise, you'll be getting a point of view, not true knowledge,
which can only be found through seeking it.
It's a serious question, and deserves serious contemplation. I urge you to do
that.
ID
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:35:25 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: David
I'm sure everyone on Beat-l wishes David well. His posts are certainly among t
he most interesting on the list. I hope he rejoins us soon.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:50:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: David Foster Wallace
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1998010611315041@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> from "Bill Gargan" at
Jan 6, 98 11:25:27 am
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Who IS this guy?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:39:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: David Rhaesa sends greetings
Comments: cc: Chris West <chriswest@dancris.com>
In-Reply-To: <34BBFF53.4646@student.uq.edu.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Listers:
Just spoke to David. He's "fine."
He said, "Tell my friends I'm getting too much sleep...I'm OK...should be
out of here in a week or so...there is nothing I need."
How about mail I asked?
"OK...but add "PLEASE FORWARD" to the address because I might be on my way
home."
Jo says: "Get those cards and letters into the mail."
David sounded tired. Very tired. But he was very happy I got through to
him. Not much to talk about. Talked about his visit to 1603 E. Williams
Street down in the Valley of the Sun. Said he had a great time. He spent an
evening with two incredible people living in our home down there.
I'll check in with him again. When I do I'll pass any info along.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:25:51 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 98-01-13 17:31:35 EST, you write:
<< Jim - David has no access to e-mail - you might want to send him a note or
card at the hospital... ciao, sherri >>
david is in the hospital? is he alright? i signed off the list for a month and
i have no clue what is going on. marie, are you still out there? leon? i was
going to post a hello to my friends just to mention that i was back, but i was
shocked when i read this. sorry for taking up space, but could someone please
e-mail me privately to let me know what happened with david. thanks.
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:30:59 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 98-01-13 19:31:57 EST, you write:
<< "I want to be considered a jazz poet blowing in a long blues in an
afternoon jam session on Sunday. I take 242 choruses; my ideas vary and
sometimes roll from chorus to chorus or from halfway though a chorus to
halfway into the next."
>>
is this a JK quote? if not, where did you get it?
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:59:16 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
test
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:22:12 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa
In-Reply-To: <f8245ed9.34bc3041@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>In a message dated 98-01-13 17:31:35 EST, you write:
>
><< Jim - David has no access to e-mail - you might want to send him a note or
> card at the hospital... ciao, sherri >>
>
>david is in the hospital? is he alright? i signed off the list for a month and
>i have no clue what is going on. marie, are you still out there? leon? i was
>going to post a hello to my friends just to mention that i was back, but i was
>shocked when i read this. sorry for taking up space, but could someone please
>e-mail me privately to let me know what happened with david. thanks.
>~~marlene
David is OK. Spoke to him this evening.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:31:28 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: David Foster Wallace
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Who IS this guy?
Is this the "Infinite Jest" author?
Why do you ask?
I have wondered when someone might bring him up. I haven't because I know
very little about him except I did read girl with mellow hair or something
like that.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:33:02 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>In a message dated 98-01-13 19:31:57 EST, you write:
>
><< "I want to be considered a jazz poet blowing in a long blues in an
> afternoon jam session on Sunday. I take 242 choruses; my ideas vary and
> sometimes roll from chorus to chorus or from halfway though a chorus to
> halfway into the next."
> >>
> is this a JK quote? if not, where did you get it?
>~~marlene
That is a JK quote, from the preface to Mexico City Blues
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:34:02 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: i'm still alive
Content-Type: text/plain
hey all you guys! still alive and well in california. won't hear much
from me because i'm working my up the coast to the amtrack station.
have missed you all since i've been out computer range, but have been
having a GLORIOUS time.
talk to you all later in the week.
marie
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:49:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Abe Lincoln
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Was not Abe Lincoln a sufferer from MD/Bipolar?
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:54:09 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jjdorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
the "i want to be considered a jazz poet..." quote is in the beginning of
Mexico City Blues. jack was explaining is poetry.
john
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:12:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ira Hayes
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1998011318210937@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
What song?
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Bill Gargan wrote:
> John Prine does a wonderful version of this song.
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:28:23 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
You also might check out JK's explanation of jazz-prose connection in his
"Essentials of Spontaneous Prose." You can find it in the Portable Jack
Kerouac by Charters, Viking Press or "Casebook on the Beat" by Parkinson.
Ginsberg had the manifesto on his wall as he wrote Howl.
Hope this helps,
Preston
>the "i want to be considered a jazz poet..." quote is in the beginning of
>Mexico City Blues. jack was explaining is poetry.
>
>john
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:16:45 -0500
Reply-To: cmdumond@ehc.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Buddhism v. Catholicism
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hey all,
It's been a while since I've bothered to post. Seems like the list has
been rather uninspired lately. I liked this question though. I'd say
that the difference lies in one word, "until". In christianity, Christ
supposedly takes away the suffering. Buddhism, on the other hand, tells
us that life is suffering, why and what we can do about it. However, as
the first noble truth, it remains a constant for humanity. As i see it,
this is one of the main conflicts Jack experienced in his religious
struggles.
>How does the first Noble Truth that all life is suffering differ from
> Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and >travaileth in
pain together until now."?
much love,
Chris
P.S. You know something's wrong when there is more debate ABOUT
debating the Estate funnybusiness than there is actual list content! My
motion is that Bill puts a clause in signon notice that demands everyone
grow-up and stop parading to see who has the bigger balls.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:17:15 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: The contest
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>much love,
>Chris
>P.S. You know something's wrong when there is more debate ABOUT
>debating the Estate funnybusiness than there is actual list content! My
>motion is that Bill puts a clause in signon notice that demands everyone
>grow-up and stop parading to see who has the bigger balls.
I take it this this post is your entry?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:39:40 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nicolai Pharao <nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Wild Boys
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Wild Boys is a strange book but far from as strange as any of the cut-up
trilogy, at least when it comes to composition. Having only read it once I
thought it to be an exquisitely beautiful piece of prose and very
entertaining. The criticism of society which Burroughs (rightly) was
renowned for is perhaps not as explicit in this book as it is in others,
most prominently "Naked Lunch" and the cut-up trilogy.Be sure to pick up a
copy of "Exterminator!".
bye,
Nicolai
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:49:43 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:08 AM 1/5/88 -0600, you wrote:
>Does anyone know anything about existentialism and it's importance in
>the Beat movement and culture? If so, please explain and help me out
>here. Thanks!
>
>*jodie*
>
>
I don't remember where I read it (it was a blurb), William Burroughs called
Kerouac America's greatest existentialist writer.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:35:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
In-Reply-To: <v01540b00b0e25f002f92@[146.201.2.119]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
You can also find Essentials of Spontaneous Prose in Good Blonde..
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Preston Whaley wrote:
> You also might check out JK's explanation of jazz-prose connection in his
> "Essentials of Spontaneous Prose." You can find it in the Portable Jack
> Kerouac by Charters, Viking Press or "Casebook on the Beat" by Parkinson.
> Ginsberg had the manifesto on his wall as he wrote Howl.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Preston
>
> >the "i want to be considered a jazz poet..." quote is in the beginning of
> >Mexico City Blues. jack was explaining is poetry.
> >
> >john
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:04:11 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The cardinal doctrine of existentialism according to Sartre is "existence
precedes essence;" we are born into the world a zero and create our own
being from there. It presupposes absolute freedom. Nothing is ordained.
Infinite creative possibilities. Camus and Sartre are good places to go
for prose realization of the philosophy. It's less explicit in Kerouac
because he's so subjective but the Nietzchean uberman Dean Moriarty pushes
toward the idea. The obstacle to all of this is culture of course and
according to Burroughs language itself, because of it, consciousness is
prerecorded. Therefore existentialism is a ruse performed by deterministic
language which he tried to undermine via cutups, etc.
That's an oversimplified nutshell of the issues.
Preston
>At 07:08 AM 1/5/88 -0600, you wrote:
>>Does anyone know anything about existentialism and it's importance in
>>the Beat movement and culture? If so, please explain and help me out
>>here. Thanks!
>>
>>*jodie*
>>
>>
>
>I don't remember where I read it (it was a blurb), William Burroughs called
>Kerouac America's greatest existentialist writer.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:17:18 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: The contest
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> >much love,
> >Chris
>
> >P.S. You know something's wrong when there is more debate ABOUT
> >debating the Estate funnybusiness than there is actual list content! My
> >motion is that Bill puts a clause in signon notice that demands everyone
> >grow-up and stop parading to see who has the bigger balls.
>
> I take it this this post is your entry?
and tkc adds the addendum:
actually, i've been told seeing who had the bigger balls was a game some
of the beats liked.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:53:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
Comments: To: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <v01540b00b0e2aa215070@[146.201.2.65]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
That was a brilliantly succinct summary on Existentialism and Burroughs'
response to it...
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark.
"I cannot live without books."
--Thomas Jefferson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:58:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: David Foster Wallace
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0e1811d3851@[128.125.223.120]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:31 PM 1/13/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Is this the "Infinite Jest" author?
>
>Why do you ask?
>
>I have wondered when someone might bring him up. I haven't because I know
>very little about him except I did read girl with mellow hair or something
>like that.
>
>
that's him allright. never had time to read that big book (1,000 pages or
so.. not exactly) Infinite Jest, but i will soon. he was featured in a few
articles at
<http://www.amazon.com> about him. maybe they took them down. but they do
have reviews of most of his books at that site.
randy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:49:33 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Proust Questions
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
I went on a x country trip and planned to ask strangers the following
questions, but instead just asked friends and relatives, and recorded it on
Video. It really is entertaining, especially for me since I know everybody,
but it also gave me a little insight into that person as to how they were
feeling that particular day. They has to answer the questions live, they
didn't get to review the questions beforehand.
Original five questions:
1) What is your favorite color?
2) What is your favorite number?
3) What is the best or favorite place you have ever been to?
4) What person, living or dead, would you like to meet, and why?
5) Tell me a joke. (This was the hardest one to get with many people saying
they don't know any jokes, I just kept the film rolling).
I added two questions in later 'interviews'.
6) If you were an animal, what animal would you be? (this is different than
what animal do you want to be)
7) Describe a water fall.
I got some great answers, some great jokes as well (as well as why did the
chicken cross the road at least 3 times). I have over 25-30 people
interviewed.
Main reason why I started is because I didn't even know my parent's favorite
color and I wanted to document it (because I wouldn't remember otherwise).
For me it was great, having a record of my friends and family in a very candid
interview. People watching the video enjoyed it as well and get caught up with
trying to guess people's answers.
so it goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:17:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Abe Lincoln
In-Reply-To: <34BC43BF.996CC74F@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
hello.
got the below from the groiler encyclopedia. says also that Kraepelin
documened most of that stuff in 1883 in a textbook... abe was assinated in
1865.
Emil Kraepelin, b. Feb. 15, 1856, d. Oct. 7, 1926, was a German
psychiatrist who developed an influential classification of psychoses into
two types: dementia praecox, now called schizophrenia, and manic-depressive
psychosis.
it would be possible Bentz, but i doubt it was documented. we all have
skeletons in the closet though.
randy
At 11:49 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Was not Abe Lincoln a sufferer from MD/Bipolar?
>
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:24:10 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ever thought of writing "In a Nutshell" books? Wonderful job!
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
>The cardinal doctrine of existentialism according to Sartre is "existence
>precedes essence;" we are born into the world a zero and create our own
>being from there. It presupposes absolute freedom. Nothing is ordained.
>Infinite creative possibilities. Camus and Sartre are good places to go
>for prose realization of the philosophy. It's less explicit in Kerouac
>because he's so subjective but the Nietzchean uberman Dean Moriarty pushes
>toward the idea. The obstacle to all of this is culture of course and
>according to Burroughs language itself, because of it, consciousness is
>prerecorded. Therefore existentialism is a ruse performed by deterministic
>language which he tried to undermine via cutups, etc.
>
>That's an oversimplified nutshell of the issues.
>
>Preston
>
>>At 07:08 AM 1/5/88 -0600, you wrote:
>>>Does anyone know anything about existentialism and it's importance in
>>>the Beat movement and culture? If so, please explain and help me out
>>>here. Thanks!
>>>
>>>*jodie*
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I don't remember where I read it (it was a blurb), William Burroughs
called
>>Kerouac America's greatest existentialist writer.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:50:56 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: David Foster Wallace
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Well, I don't know very much about David Foster Wallace, but as coincidence
would have it, a friend of mine is right now struggling through "Infinite
Jest". She tells me that the book is very good, a lot of very strange
characters. I've read a few parts of it myself, which were hysterical. I
wouldn't describe the prose itself as particularly disjointed, but I think
that the narrative is, not too a terribly confusing degree, but at least
enough to keep you on your toes.
He's been compared to Pynchon quite a lot by critics. And speaking of- I've
got Gravity's Rainbow sitting on my shelf waiting for me (soon as I finish The
Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco.... talk about an amazing- and confusing-
author). I've read the beginning before, and got very hung up on the setting.
Can anyone tell me whether this was some kind of future war, who it was
between, etc? of course- if telling me this would spoil the story too much,
I'll just wait and tough it out on my own. Thank you.
Oh and one last Foster Wallace thing- I have a little essay type thing by him
comparing the unfinished novel to a "damaged infant". It's pretty funny... a
little weird... if you guys are at all interested I'll post it or send it
through private email...
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:01:44 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Foster Wallace
His book "The Broom of the System" is a good read too, though a little quirky.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:52:15 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: DHARMA beat Stuff page
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hello
In each issue of DHARMA beat we list poetry chapbooks, zines, books that are
Kerouac related, Kerouac influenced, or the ones we like. If you would like to
have something considered to be listed (and go out and be seen by a bunch of
Kerouac enthusiasts) please e mail me and I will provide an address to mail it
to (different than DHARMA beat's PO Box)
thanks, and sorry for the intrusion
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:52:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: DHARMA beat- A Jack Kerouac Newszine
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
DHARMA beat is a zine (newsletter) that is published twice a year about
Kerouac's life and writing. Issue 10 will be published in March.
web page:
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/dharmabeat.html">
http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/dharmabeat.html</A>
We publish information of interest about Kerouac events and happenings around
the world. A recent issue had an article about Kerouac living in Ozone Park,
New York; an article about Jack's sister Nin; and Allen Ginsberg provided two
dreams that he had where he's talking with Kerouac. Ginsberg wrote :
"Poetry America was born before us & will live after us -- and would've been
visible for every eye to see but for the scientists of poetry & sociologists
of Academy measuring the vast mind with monkey calipers & teaspoons of ink --"
DHARMA beat is published twice a year, spring and fall. Subscriptions are
$7.00 per year (two issues, make checks payable to DHARMA beat), $10 to Canada
and overseas (payable in US dollars). Sample copies are available for $3.00.
Mail to DHARMA beat, PO BOX 1753, Lowell MA, 01853-1753. For more information
e mail to KEROUACZIN@AOL.COM
We are always looking for articles and information about any Kerouac related
item you may have (for example if you have a Kerouac Poetry reading
celebrating his birth or passing) or anything related. Our main purpose is to
let people know about what's going on.
Next issue due is March, send stuff for calenders and reviews now.
thanks and enjoy, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:15:53 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Proust Questions
Content-Type: text/plain
hey there. the question i have learned in to ask: how psychotic am i and
will a x country trip save my brain or boil it.
just my 2 cents
mc
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Wed Jan 14 16:08:53 1998
>Received: from listserv.cuny.edu (listserv.cuny.edu [128.228.100.10])
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>Message-ID: <7df51287.34bd4f10@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:49:33 EST
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
>Subject: Proust Questions
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>I went on a x country trip and planned to ask strangers the following
>questions, but instead just asked friends and relatives, and recorded
it on
>Video. It really is entertaining, especially for me since I know
everybody,
>but it also gave me a little insight into that person as to how they
were
>feeling that particular day. They has to answer the questions live,
they
>didn't get to review the questions beforehand.
>
>Original five questions:
>1) What is your favorite color?
>
>2) What is your favorite number?
>
>3) What is the best or favorite place you have ever been to?
>
>4) What person, living or dead, would you like to meet, and why?
>
>5) Tell me a joke. (This was the hardest one to get with many people
saying
>they don't know any jokes, I just kept the film rolling).
>
>I added two questions in later 'interviews'.
>
>6) If you were an animal, what animal would you be? (this is
different than
>what animal do you want to be)
>
>7) Describe a water fall.
>
>I got some great answers, some great jokes as well (as well as why did
the
>chicken cross the road at least 3 times). I have over 25-30 people
>interviewed.
>
>Main reason why I started is because I didn't even know my parent's
favorite
>color and I wanted to document it (because I wouldn't remember
otherwise).
>
>For me it was great, having a record of my friends and family in a very
candid
>interview. People watching the video enjoyed it as well and get caught
up with
>trying to guess people's answers.
>
>so it goes, Attila
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:04:31 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Liam Ferney <s341839@STUDENT.UQ.EDU.AU>
Organization: Student
Subject: Re: Beats and Jazz question
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
M84M79 wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-01-13 19:31:57 EST, you write:
>
> << "I want to be considered a jazz poet blowing in a long blues in an
> afternoon jam session on Sunday. I take 242 choruses; my ideas vary and
> sometimes roll from chorus to chorus or from halfway though a chorus to
> halfway into the next."
> >>
> is this a JK quote? if not, where did you get it?
> ~~marlene
Yes it is a JK qoute. It's from the start of Mexico City Blues
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:08:47 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
The current issue of the _New York Times Book Review_ (18 January 1998)
has an advertisement for Bauman Rare Books offering a copy of a 1st
edition of _On the Road_ for $3200, $200 more than a 1st ed. of a limited
edition (800 copies) of _Anna Livia Plurabelle_ signed by James Joyce!
(p. 5)
Have the Beats arrived, or what?
Cordially,
Mike Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:49:33 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "V.J. Eaton" <vj@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: To IRCers and TKQ Maher re:Kerochat
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The TalkCity Kerochat was a good experiment, but there are better ways.
IRC has its own gremlins without being served through HTML/HTTP protocols
while a browser loads Java advertisements and writes cookies.
Just use IRC. IRC programs are free, and the learning curve is . . . read.
TKQ, if you want to sponser Beat chat: Pick an IRC server (Delphi's in the
Lowel area, --tends to be busy, tho), name the #group for us, and give a
general time. People can generally tend to show up about generally then.
First one to /join creates the channel under the #expected name, and gets op
privileges.
Kerochat under current management? --doomed to slowdom and non attendance.
_____________________
More harm is done under guise of goodness than ever realized
by foul deed or evil doer. Nevertheless, I wish I was good.
--Herbert Huncke
V.J. Eaton
Tempe, AZ
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:29:13 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Forked Tongue
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello Dear Sherri,
Hopefully you had a great day, and a better one coming up tomorrow! They can
allways be better, allways.
That is not a forked tongue talking to you, the Forked Tongue is the cafe
that will become the Mumbo Room on Sunday. It is located on the corner of
Kearney and Broadway. I expect to come to the City in the afternoon, will be
happy to call you if you have the time and would like to visit a bit before
the evening reading. I am waiting to tell James until marie is gone.
Otherwise I have almost completely recovered from my awful ordeal. Some dark
clouds still linger a bit when blown in by the winds, but they do dissipate.
What winds? Like a call from Ann Marie who surprised me with a long list of
complaints about the visit that marie called "GLORIOUS". Like the message
that marie sent me today. You wanna see it?
BTW I started to wade through some of her posts and i have already copy
pasted a whole bunch to refute all the shamelessly false badmouthing that
ingrate has spread around about me. See, I can blow the clouds right into my
head all by myself, but they don't hold water, no rain on my head. Smiles
shine through, the interior weather is clearing nicely.
What decided me to prepare a reply is first of all my resolve to tie
together loose ends and reflect them back to marie, the best chance of doing
something good with all the agonizing efforts that I have expended on her
behalf. She sent me an email today that she wants to pass as an olive
branch, but is only adding more insults. She suggests that when i am ready
we should become friends again, maybe resume writing. But instead of
acknowledging anything wrong done on her part, she is ready to excuse me
because she now claims to realize that she gave me mixed messages , sexually
speaking I presume.
That only suggests that I may have actually acted out something aggressively
toward her, which is totally false. I will not permit her to get away with
making such accusations. I also intend to call her on the fact that she
wrote to her therapist that I "jumped her bones three nights in a row". I
suppose he might believe her. I suspect she knows better than to make that
kind of accusation to you. To me the fact that she wrote him that, was for
me the one most enlightening fact about her predicament.
To begin with I was very interested in the controversial questions that have
lately arisen about reports of abuse to therapists. I wanted to have an in
depth look, and marie provided me an answer with a definite clarity that was
way beyond any of my expectations.
Marie may be telling the truth about her childhood abuse, but there is no
way that she suspects within herself that I "jumped her bones three nights
in a row"!!! It also helps me to understand better why her hterapist has
such little success with her over all these years. While I will present to
her my respose very soon, there is quite a bit of serious consideration for
me how to use all this real life action in the most useful way to her. Once
a therapist always a therapist I guess.
By now you must wonder how did I learn that? I assume that you are too
intelligent to believe that maybe I did look over marie's shoulder after all
when she was typing away. Could you believe for a moment that she would type
such statements with me looking over her shoulder?
The truth is sort of amazing in its own way. Marie must have wanted me to
see that one, otherwise do you think that she would have left the message
miniaturized on the task bar? Well, I have it on my computer. You wanna see
it? Do you believe I have an obligation to keep it confidential? So far I
haven't told anyone about it. I didn't believe my eyes when I scratched my
head and restored the icon to the screen. I do know that it belongs in the
punch line of my response when the time comes to try to help her see how she
abuses herself by playing out fictitious victim roles to gain sick power
that gets her sympathy and support for infantile games.
But you didn't ask for all that crap. I suspect that you too, like myself,
like to see through these things that are hindering us from dealing more
usefully with these tragedies in life. That's my excuse for wriiting it all
out. You too are with me on this stage getting to look at the players and
their games.
So you thought I would just go on and on? Nyah. Enough.
I hope your evening is a very pleasant one.
Love and hugs
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:02:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Archive Post
In-Reply-To: <34BD4EC8.1134@ehc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Chris Dumond wrote:
>Jo,
> Frankly, I'm tired of it. It seems like everyone is trying to find new
>ways of bringing up
>OLD business that will only be settled by a court.
Are you tired of the subject, or does the subject make you uncomfortable?
If it will help you be a little less "tired" I will add "Keroauc Archive
Post" to the SUBJECT line--starting with this post--so you can delete
without having to read the post.
You refer to my post "Nicosia Hate? I think not," as "childish."
Interestingly, you were the only one of 72 people who responded who either
wanted more information, or were unaware of the suit over the (alledged)
forging of Jack Keroauc's mother's name to her will--which left everything
to S. Sampas. Many were shocked to learn that John Sampas was going to
great expense to keep the suit from ever being heard in court. Are you
aware that it's costing John Sampas a hell of a lot more to try to keep the
case from going to court, than it would to walk into court and prove
Memere's signature wasn't forged--which he claims he can do.
I was equally surprised by the number of Keroauc readers who had never read
his last letter.
This indicates to me thata few people on the Beat List might be tired of
the posting of "childish" Keroauc Archive information, but many people new
to the subject appreciate the information.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:51:45 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Forked Tongue
Comments: To: letabor@cruzio.com
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Man, I am stunned. Let all who witness this gigantic faux pas be sobered into
realizing how important it is to CHECK THE REPLY TO or the Send To box before
you send it.
Gonna be a lotta excitement on Beat-L now... Suddenly I feel naked.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.... er... uh....
Please accept my condolences, all named parties.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:51:45 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>I don't remember where I read it (it was a blurb), William Burroughs
>called Kerouac America's greatest existentialist writer.
I'm sorry, but until I see a specific source for this, I remain unable
to believe that Burroughs really said this.
-John Hasbrouck
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:19:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
In-Reply-To: <34BDCE1F.3D38@tezcat.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:
> >I don't remember where I read it (it was a blurb), William Burroughs
> >called Kerouac America's greatest existentialist writer.
>
> I'm sorry, but until I see a specific source for this, I remain unable
> to believe that Burroughs really said this.
I have a hard time believing this too. Compare the following passages
from WSB's preface to Mohamed Choukri's book _Jean Genet in Tangier_:
"[Genet said,] 'I'm neither Existentialist nor Absurdist. I don't
believe in such classifications. I'm only a writer, either a good one
or a bad one.' I have been equally impatient with such
classifications. Am I a Beat writer? a black humorist? and so on.
There is good writing and bad writing. Giving names in meaningless.
[...]
This shared conviction made it possible for Jean Genet and me to
communicate in Chicago despite my atrocious French and his
non-existent English. Had he considered himself an Existentialist or
an Absurdist, communication would have been impossible."
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:13:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Used bookstore finds
In-Reply-To: <01ISALLNAQBM8Y8DWC@mail.ewu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Mary Maconnell wrote:
> I'm starting with "The Wild Boys" but now am wondering why. I'm a little
> bit into chapter 3 and it's so weird thus far and I'm wondering if there's
> any advice anyone can give a person not yet versed with Burroughs.
The Wild Boys is the book I always recommend to people who haven't read
Burroughs before. It's got a bit of everything: routines, cut--ups,
anarchistic utopias, and wickedly funny black humour. It's a whirlwind
ride, but it's one I return to often. The Green Nun may be the funniest
Burroughs passage I've ever read.
I'd be surprised if whoever said: "One word: Heroin" has actually read The
Wild Boys, since junk does not figure prominently, if at all, in the book.
It's not particularly useful to think of the divisions in the book as
chapters in any strict sense of the word, since chapters usually serve as
major dividers in a unified narrative. Obviously, there is no overriding
narrative, although I've heard people argue that the recurring "Penny
Arcade Peep-Show" passages provide a cinematic emphasis that is picked up
in the narrative passages, which are given as if on screen (note the
proliferation of "camera zooms in", "on screen", "cut back to" to
introduce narratives).
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:18:00 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
In-Reply-To: <v01540b00b0e2aa215070@[146.201.2.65]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Thanks for the insight...I have a better understanding of it now...
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Preston Whaley wrote:
> The cardinal doctrine of existentialism according to Sartre is "existence
> precedes essence;" we are born into the world a zero and create our own
> being from there. It presupposes absolute freedom. Nothing is ordained.
> Infinite creative possibilities. Camus and Sartre are good places to go
> for prose realization of the philosophy. It's less explicit in Kerouac
> because he's so subjective but the Nietzchean uberman Dean Moriarty pushes
> toward the idea. The obstacle to all of this is culture of course and
> according to Burroughs language itself, because of it, consciousness is
> prerecorded. Therefore existentialism is a ruse performed by deterministic
> language which he tried to undermine via cutups, etc.
>
> That's an oversimplified nutshell of the issues.
>
> Preston
>
> >At 07:08 AM 1/5/88 -0600, you wrote:
> >>Does anyone know anything about existentialism and it's importance in
> >>the Beat movement and culture? If so, please explain and help me out
> >>here. Thanks!
> >>
> >>*jodie*
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I don't remember where I read it (it was a blurb), William Burroughs called
> >Kerouac America's greatest existentialist writer.
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:29:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: To IRCers and TKQ Maher re:Kerochat
In-Reply-To: <199801150449.VAA07103@smtp03.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Yeah,I agree...IRC would be better because the computer I use doesnt
support Java for security reasons..its a school computer. What about using
Yahoo Chat?
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, V.J. Eaton wrote:
> The TalkCity Kerochat was a good experiment, but there are better ways.
>
> IRC has its own gremlins without being served through HTML/HTTP protocols
> while a browser loads Java advertisements and writes cookies.
>
> Just use IRC. IRC programs are free, and the learning curve is . . . read.
>
> TKQ, if you want to sponser Beat chat: Pick an IRC server (Delphi's in the
> Lowel area, --tends to be busy, tho), name the #group for us, and give a
> general time. People can generally tend to show up about generally then.
> First one to /join creates the channel under the #expected name, and gets op
> privileges.
>
> Kerochat under current management? --doomed to slowdom and non attendance.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____________________
> More harm is done under guise of goodness than ever realized
> by foul deed or evil doer. Nevertheless, I wish I was good.
> --Herbert Huncke
>
> V.J. Eaton
> Tempe, AZ
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:45:41 -0500
Reply-To: "henkel@wmich.edu" <henkel@wmich.edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Scott Henkel <henkel@WMICH.EDU>
Organization: OVPR
Subject: Ginsberg audio
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
FYI Beat-Lers, I just came across a Ginsberg audio interview on RealAudio
at http://www.liveconcerts.com/listening/kcrw/ There's a box of clips to
sort through, alpha by interviewee. Some other interesting people, but not
very beat related. I have not listened to it yet, has anyone?
Cheers,
Scott
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:20:25 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Character Names
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I don't have a copy of Naked Lunch at work, but I have all of you!
Was there a character in NL called Husker Du? (Yes, just like the
metal band)
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:18:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Character Names
In-Reply-To: <00000EA0.3427@usoc.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, MATT HANNAN wrote:
> I don't have a copy of Naked Lunch at work, but I have all of you!
>
> Was there a character in NL called Husker Du? (Yes, just like the
> metal band)
I can't remember off the top of my head, but I know there was a character
called Steely Dan, who was, of course, a dildo. The term "heavy metal" for
that brand of music was (unfortunately) borrowed from Burroughs' character
the Heavy Metal Kid. Other bands with Burroughsian names also off the top
of my head: The Insect Trust, The Soft Machine. Seemed to be a 70's thing.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:20:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980110112620.4602W-100000@global.california.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wittgenstein:
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Michael R. Brown wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> > In all my reading of Burroughs, I've never run across anything that
> > made me think, "Gee, that sounds just like Wittgenstein." So apart
> > from the explicit reference in the intro to Naked Lunch, I don't think
> > Burroughs ever had much to say about W.
>
> Well, there is that reference to Wittgenstein's pre-recorded-universe
> idea in the WSB documentary.
There is an explicit reference that links (not attributes) Wittgenstein to
Burroughs' idea of the pre-recorded universe in The Ticket that Exploded:
"Wittgenstein said: 'No proposition can contain itself as an argument' =
The only thing _not_ prerecorded in a prerecorded universe is the
prerecording itself which is to say _any_ recording that contains a random
factor" (TTE 166).
To disagree with Jeff above, the influence of Wittgenstein on Burroughs'
notion of the prerecorded universe makes Wittgenstein instrumental in
Burroughs' philosophy and fiction. AJ The Cut-up Kid's only mission is to
fuck with the prerecordings in TTE and Nova Express (burn nitrous holes in
the Reality Film), and the first two books of the Red Night trilogy are
predicated on the notion that the prerecordings can be cut-up, subverted,
and destroyed.
On Language Games:
Michael went on to write:
> Wittgenstein may have been more of an influence, however, in the idea
> of language-games. Perhaps Burroughs was a language-gamester akin to
> the "trickster guru" Alan Watts wrote about.
I don't agree with this. When cutting word lines and control lines,
Burroughs was not playing games. Although his use of parodic and satiric
modes may cast him in the role of trickster for a time, his fight for a
non-linguistic freedom was anything but a game.
Tim Murphy's new book posits that "[Burroughs' work] emerges from the
liminal space of literature with a 'plan of living' rather than an
endlessly deferred 'participation in language games' or an empty 'love for
the world through language' a la John Barth." He makes a pretty convincing
argument too, and I'd refer you to him for the rest of it.
Burroughs was always trying to _do_ something, whether it was cutting
control lines, creating retroactive utopias, or getting into space. He was
never just a language-gamester.
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:24:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Kerouac and Permutation Poems
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Since permutation poems were au courant on the list but a mere few weeks
ago, and the Kerouac folks were largely waiting in the wings since Rainbow
Jack's practices were so far removed from such indulgence, I'd like to try
to bridge the gap, unite the forces under the banner of British poet bob
cobbing's combinatory sound poems written, published and performed in
1970.
-------------------------------------------------
(for jack kerouac, one)
fragment:
sasa kassee jo ook arsaka see
joass sackoo jusoo jaa
ajeck sojooka kee reko sooja jaake
aaeouauueeooeauo
okkuakeko jukokkua aeja reekokussa
saarruu oukekoju
raka jee sseee aajakakee jjeaujok
ouaeooeeuuauoeaa
sakasee jo ook arsaka see
joassak koojusoo jaa
ajeck sojooka kee
rekosoo ja jaake
aaeouauueeooeauo
okkua keko
juko kua
aoja
ree
-------------------------------------------------
(for jack kerouac, three)
juka
juka kuru
juka kuru roku
kuru roku
joku roku
joku kuro
joku kuro roko
kuro roko
joko roko
joko kure
joko kure roka
kure roka
joka roka
joka kura
joka kura raku
kura raku
jaku raku
jaku kera
jaku kera rako
kera rako
jako rako
jako keru
jako keru raka
keru raka
raka
-------------------------------------------------------
(for jack kerouac, two [as 13, One]; pronounce a as ah,
e as ay, o as oh, u as oo, c as ch, j as y)
ca je ko ru ca ce jo ra ka ca co ke ku ja ce
ka ce jo ku ra ja co ke ka je ju re ka cu jo
ra ke co ju ka ku ka re ko cu ka ru ca ra ko
ka re ko cu ja ru ca ra ko ju ka ca je ra ko
ja ke ro ku ca ja ke ro ku ca ja ke ro ku ca
re ka ka ju co ca ru cu ko re ca ka ko ra ca
ko ca ru ko ke ra ca ka ra ka je ce ja ku ru
cu ka ca je ra ko ja ce jo ku ra ju co ke ka
ja ce jo ku ra ju co ke ka je ko er ka cu jo
ja ke ro ku ca ja ke ro ku ca ja ke ro ku ca
ce ja ra je ca co ju ku jo ce re ko ka ke co
jo co ju ka ka ke re ko cu ja ka ca ra ko ju
ku ko re ka cu ka ra ca ru ko cu je ca ka ra
ra ca ru ko ke je ca ka ra ka jo ce ja ku ru
ja ke ro ku ca ja ke ro ku ca ja ke ro ku ca
ca ra cu ka re ca je ko ru ca ce jo ra ka ca
ru ca je ra ko ka ce jo ku ra ja co ke ka je
ko jo ce ja ku ra ke co ju ka ku ka re ko cu
ke co ju ka ka ka re ko cu ja ru ca ra ko ju
ja ke ro ku ca ja ke ro ku ca ja ke ro ku ca
co ke ku ja ce re ka ka ju co ca ru cu ko re
ju re ka cu jo ko ca ru ko ke ra ca ka ra ka
ka ru ca ra ko cu ka ca je ra ko ja ce jo ku
ka ca je ra ko ja ce jo ku ra ju co ke ka je
ja ke ro ku ca ja ke ro ku ca ja ke ro ku ca
----------------------------------------------------------
All three poems were published in:
cobbing, bob. _bill jubobe_. Toronto: The Coach House Press, 1976.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:29:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: HUSKER DU
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> I don't have a copy of Naked Lunch at work, but I have all of you!
>
> Was there a character in NL called Husker Du? (Yes, just like the
> metal band)
i just read it recently and i definitely would've remembered any mention of
minneapolis' "metal" vangards. you realize that the band named themselves
after the swedish board game where you flip over two cards or gamepieces to
try and make a match. if you don't get a match you flip them back over and
have to keep track of each image to match later. the name means "do you
remember?".
KEN
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:31:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: HUSKER DU
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01b0e3f356da3c@[18.170.1.147]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Ken Ostrander wrote:
> you realize that the band named themselves
> after the swedish board game where you flip over two cards or gamepieces to
> try and make a match. if you don't get a match you flip them back over and
> have to keep track of each image to match later. the name means "do you
> remember?".
The English game was just called "Memory". I played it with my brothers
when I was a young kid, whenever Mom wouldn't let us play street hockey
because we were slashing each other too much with our sticks... (off into
Canadian hockey reverie....)
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:52:51 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac
Bauman rare Books has their office in the Waldorf Astoria which explains their
hefty prices. Take about $1500.00 off any book they offer for a more normal
price.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:58:04 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Character Names
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
husker du was a 'concentration' type board game in the early 60s. its a
scandanavian language that means 'do you remember'
i thought the band was more punk than metal
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:22:43 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Character Names
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:58 AM 1/15/98 +0000, you wrote:
>husker du was a 'concentration' type board game in the early 60s. its a
>scandanavian language that means 'do you remember'
>
>i thought the band was more punk than metal
>
>tkc
>
Thanks for saying that. I was gonna say metal?????
I saw them only once way back when when they came out from Minnesota to
California at the Mabuhay and this was punk rock time. They played with us,
them and Black Flag (as I recall)
This would be 1981 or 1982. Years later the lines between punk and "metal"
began to blur.
Meat Puppets would be a simlar type of thing
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:05:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: To IRCers and TKQ Maher re:Kerochat
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>> The TalkCity Kerochat was a good experiment, but there are better ways.
Why the past tense? Those who have gotten through are satisfied with it ( so
they tell me). Java is the current technology. Why back out of it?
The next chat will be Sunday at 8:00 PM. The subject line is the book
Visions of Cody. Thanks for the support! Paul of TKQ..
>>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:19:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Character Names
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thanks to everyone who responded to my question. Don't know why I
thought Husker Du was in NL, must be my caffeine addled brain. As far
as punk vs. metal--I was generalizing--never was a fan of HD--big
Steely Dan fan though!
love and lilies,
matt
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Character Names
Author: tkc@zipcon.com at Internet
Date: 1/15/98 11:58 AM
husker du was a 'concentration' type board game in the early 60s. its a
scandanavian language that means 'do you remember'
i thought the band was more punk than metal
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:04:18 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Character Names
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> Thanks for saying that. I was gonna say metal?????
>
> I saw them only once way back when when they came out from Minnesota to
> California at the Mabuhay and this was punk rock time. They played with us,
> them and Black Flag (as I recall)
>
> This would be 1981 or 1982. Years later the lines between punk and "metal"
> began to blur.
>
> Meat Puppets would be a simlar type of thing
never saw em, but liked their records, same with black flag.
what was mabuhay? what was yr band
meat puppets...i...can't...quite......uh....i'm confusing with an early
metallica album.....
punk was about theatre, metal about showbiz....
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:08:08 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Character Names
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 01:04 PM 1/15/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>> Thanks for saying that. I was gonna say metal?????
>>
>> I saw them only once way back when when they came out from Minnesota to
>> California at the Mabuhay and this was punk rock time. They played with us,
>> them and Black Flag (as I recall)
>>
>> This would be 1981 or 1982. Years later the lines between punk and "metal"
>> began to blur.
>>
>> Meat Puppets would be a simlar type of thing
>
>never saw em, but liked their records, same with black flag.
>what was mabuhay? what was yr band
Mabuhay Gardens was a Filipino Restaurant/Senior Citizens center on Broadway
(a couple of blocks down from City Lights) where punk bands in San franciso
played at night back in the late 70's and early 80's.
>meat puppets...i...can't...quite......uh....i'm confusing with an early
>metallica album.....
>punk was about theatre, metal about showbiz....
>
>tkc
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:39:47 -0500
Reply-To: cmdumond@ehc.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>
Subject: the contest!
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> I take it this this post is your entry?
quoth Kurt Vonnegut, quoth Kilgore Trout
"TING-A-LING!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:27:31 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: HUSKER DU
Content-Type: text/plain
> I don't have a copy of Naked Lunch at work, but I have all of you!
>>
>> Was there a character in NL called Husker Du? (Yes, just like the
metal band)
Just need to clarify something.
Being from near Minneapolis myself and with a few friends who are Husker
Du fans, I can say that they are *not* a metal band.
Thank you,
Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:24:33 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: David
Hey everyone. Just spoke with David. he's doing well and they've reduced
his medication and will be trying a totally new one for him tonight, which
is supposed to have less side effects. it looks as though he'll be out of
the hospital sometime this weekend and back feeding our heads with his
wonderful insights.
ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:21:17 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "V.J. Eaton" <vj@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: To Maher re:Kerochat
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>Why the past tense?
It's a dead horse, don't feed it.
_________________________
>>Those who have gotten through are satisfied with it . . .
That's funny . . . -- this a saving grace? "Those who have GOTTEN THROUGH"
as in
those who had the patience to sit there for 20 minutes while the page loads,
gotten through?
__________________________
>>Java is the current technology. Why back out of it?
You want to keep IRC in the browser? instead of using an IRC program because
"Java is the current technology," is this yr argument? Because of Java?
Just what do you think Java is doing for this browser-based Kerochat you are
so fond of? Squat my man, it's doing squat. It's slogging the browser with
overhead throwing ads in your face while running iterations of banner text
and cheap graphics. Not to mention reducing screen real estate by 30%, as
if that's not annoying.
___________________________
sof
START OF FLAME
Maher, I don't care if you have chat or not to be honest. Your idea is
good; the application is bad.
And if you hadn't let your ego bleed into yr response, I wld hv let this go.
But I've listened to you parade in yr posts for so many months that I just
got to fire one off . . .
<font color="red" size=40000 face=braggadocio><b>
Eat this flame, Maher.
</b></font>
If I ever ran into somebody who thinks he always has the best idea in town,
it's got to be you.
And that web page of yrs, while I'm picking . . . , whoodah! now that's a
<blink>gem </blink> of a piece of work. And you know enough about Java! to
defend it, you want us to believe. Hmmmmmm. Now there's a snark.
You are down south with a dose of "invented here," son. Get over it. Or,
maybe just as long as yr tickled w/ yourself, have at it, I guess.
eof
END OF FLAME
_____________________
More harm is done under guise of goodness than ever realized
by foul deed or evil doer. Nevertheless, I wish I was good.
--Herbert Huncke
V.J. Eaton
Tempe, AZ
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:31:42 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: To Maher re:Kerochat
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Fascinating as this was, it DEFINITELY seems to fall into that category of
"messages that should NOT have been sent to this list."
Surely there must be a critique of web pages and computer programming nerd
list where this can be better addressed?
Mr. Eaton, if you've wanted to flame Mr. Maher for things he said, why did you
wait until now to unload? Keeping that stuff inside just makes it unbearably
intense.
I'm putting on my asbestos gloves before reading any more posts from this
list.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:54:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: To Maher re:Kerochat
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>>>Those who have gotten through are satisfied with it . . .
>That's funny . . . -- this a saving grace? "Those who have GOTTEN THROUGH"
>as in
>those who had the patience to sit there for 20 minutes while the page loads,
>gotten through?
>
Then DON'T USE IT!
>__________________________
>>>Java is the current technology. Why back out of it?
>You want to keep IRC in the browser? instead of using an IRC program because
>"Java is the current technology," is this yr argument? Because of Java?
>
No, because I don't give a rats ass about your critique, it's a FREE service
which I'm just trying out. If it doesn't work NO HARM DONE.
>Just what do you think Java is doing for this browser-based Kerochat you are
>so fond of? Squat my man, it's doing squat. It's slogging the browser with
>overhead throwing ads in your face while running iterations of banner text
>and cheap graphics. Not to mention reducing screen real estate by 30%, as
>if that's not annoying.
Not half as annoying as your mindless banter....
>
>Maher, I don't care if you have chat or not to be honest. Your idea is
>good; the application is bad.
>And if you hadn't let your ego bleed into yr response, I wld hv let this go.
Oh my, I shouldn't have unleashed your venomous wrath!
>But I've listened to you parade in yr posts for so many months that I just
>got to fire one off . . .
>
><font color="red" size=40000 face=braggadocio><b>
> Eat this flame, Maher.
Only after I'm finished doing the same to your mother....
>
>If I ever ran into somebody who thinks he always has the best idea in town,
>it's got to be you.
So what's your point!
>And that web page of yrs, while I'm picking . . . , whoodah! now that's a
><blink>gem </blink> of a piece of work. And you know enough about Java! to
>defend it, you want us to believe. Hmmmmmm. Now there's a snark.
I know nothing about Java....my page is a source of information, not a Vegas
show...
>
>You are down south with a dose of "invented here," son. Get over it. Or,
>maybe just as long as yr tickled w/ yourself, have at it, I guess.
>
>Maybe there's too much hot air in Arizona.....
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:27:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: To Maher re:Kerochat
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980116005442.006d02f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
And people complain about Keroauc Archive posts. This kind of Beat material
gives me a feeling that if I had ever had a bad acid trip it would be like
this (see below) conversation.
j grant
>>>>Those who have gotten through are satisfied with it . . .
>>That's funny . . . -- this a saving grace? "Those who have GOTTEN THROUGH"
>>as in
>>those who had the patience to sit there for 20 minutes while the page loads,
>>gotten through?
>>
>Then DON'T USE IT!
>>__________________________
>>>>Java is the current technology. Why back out of it?
>>You want to keep IRC in the browser? instead of using an IRC program because
>>"Java is the current technology," is this yr argument? Because of Java?
>>
>No, because I don't give a rats ass about your critique, it's a FREE service
>which I'm just trying out. If it doesn't work NO HARM DONE.
>
>
>>Just what do you think Java is doing for this browser-based Kerochat you are
>>so fond of? Squat my man, it's doing squat. It's slogging the browser with
>>overhead throwing ads in your face while running iterations of banner text
>>and cheap graphics. Not to mention reducing screen real estate by 30%, as
>>if that's not annoying.
>
>Not half as annoying as your mindless banter....
>
>
>>
>>Maher, I don't care if you have chat or not to be honest. Your idea is
>>good; the application is bad.
>>And if you hadn't let your ego bleed into yr response, I wld hv let this go.
>
>Oh my, I shouldn't have unleashed your venomous wrath!
>
>
>>But I've listened to you parade in yr posts for so many months that I just
>>got to fire one off . . .
>>
>><font color="red" size=40000 face=braggadocio><b>
>> Eat this flame, Maher.
>
>Only after I'm finished doing the same to your mother....
>
>
>
>
>>
>>If I ever ran into somebody who thinks he always has the best idea in town,
>>it's got to be you.
>
>So what's your point!
>
>
>>And that web page of yrs, while I'm picking . . . , whoodah! now that's a
>><blink>gem </blink> of a piece of work. And you know enough about Java! to
>>defend it, you want us to believe. Hmmmmmm. Now there's a snark.
>
>I know nothing about Java....my page is a source of information, not a Vegas
>show...
>
>
>>
>>You are down south with a dose of "invented here," son. Get over it. Or,
>>maybe just as long as yr tickled w/ yourself, have at it, I guess.
>>
>>Maybe there's too much hot air in Arizona.....
>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:41:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: To Maher re:Kerochat
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:27 PM 1/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>And people complain about Keroauc Archive posts. This kind of Beat material
>gives me a feeling that if I had ever had a bad acid trip it would be like
>this (see below) conversation.
>j grant
It is always my pleasure to entertain the absurd...P.
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:19:50 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Justin Vandenbroucke <jvanden@DEC1.ETHS.K12.IL.US>
Subject: Re: the contest!
Comments: To: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@ehc.edu>
In-Reply-To: <34BE7413.28E2@ehc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hello everyone,
I just joined this list, and I've just been reading people's posts. I
haven't read much Beat stuff, but I am interested in it.
I'm a big Vonnegut fan, so this post caught my attention. I'm sorry if
this is off topic, but what did you guys think of Timequake?
Justin
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Chris Dumond wrote:
> Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> > I take it this this post is your entry?
>
> quoth Kurt Vonnegut, quoth Kilgore Trout
>
> "TING-A-LING!!!"
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:34:01 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Character Names
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
what was it like playing with black flag?
chad
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:40:57 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: a plea from a small timid voice
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ALLLLLL RIIIIGGGGHHHTTTTT YOOOOOUUUUUU PEEEEOOOOOOPPPPPLLLLEEEEE!!!!!!!
Did I Miss a full moon here or something, it seems like everyone,
especially (and don't hate me for singling you out) LEon, VJ Eaton,
Chris Dumond, and Jo Grant,
ARE BRINGING ME DOOOOOWWWWNNNNN!!!!!!!
I personally don't want to hear about and/or get in the middle of your
petty little arguments, and I would assume that the other listmembers
would rather not get involved either, and I feel you should have
corresponded with your nasty nasty hateful words BACKCHANNEL!!!!!!
Not only are my friends in the process of cracking up and being
completely nasty, but remember now David Rhaesa in the hospital, and now
I have you guys snipping at each other like a bunch of gradeschoolers.
Let's have some manners here, please I beg of all of you. Please for
gods sakes stop it.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:28:39 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: To IRCers and TKQ Maher re:Kerochat
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I was able to access Kerochat via irc, there are very simple
instructions provided on how to get there. Just connect to
chat.talkcity.com, port 6667, then go to the Kerochat room. I can assure
you this works, I hooked up briefly with Paul before being inexplicably
booted out (as far as I know it works fine now!). Personally, I like the
irc version, but whatever you prefer, whether it's irc or java, Kerochat
can accommodate either. So let's stop the silly bickering!
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:01:26 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: List?
Comments: To: GYENIS <GYENIS@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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i have been having fun, reading toooooo much. i like the idea of
reasonable prices, but i also have no idea about what a reasonable price
for stuff like the little broad sheets for the river city reunion and
edie k (small little books) would even be. also if autographs have some
standard value on a book. or program . it is mostly wsb. the little
retreats diaries are probably worth over $200 dollars since i have heard
of one selling unautographed for that, and i have two autographed by all
four writers, william, allen, david and james.
So right nowI am rereading the cat inside. i love the cat inside, it
mentions me by name, very sweet, and so . i go through the boxes, some
about a book a night. I would quess i will get rid of about half the
stuff. some local collecter , who is not one of my favorite people and
is always bragging about how he suckered someone is trying to talk to me
and makes me nervous about pricing. i am a bit sentimental but i have
collected three major things, williams and davids stuff, blue and white
dishes, and cook books. Now that i have collected a husband and family
i really have to get rid of portions of all three collections. I am sure
it is good for me and will be better with this material floating around
to people to actually read or enjoy. I really appreciated the advice on
how to properly describe the material and suggestions on sorting into
groups. While we might fight light wild bitches there is a lot of heart
and passion and love on this list. I appreciate you all, even the stuffy
professors, the quipping lads, the old warriers, the plodding writers,
the students searching for a fast quote, the unbeat fans that actually
just want to brush up against other that love literature. so here is a
slightly beat related post.
good night mrs kalabash
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:00:37 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nicolai Pharao <nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: Character Names
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No character by the name Husker Du in Naked Lunch.
Husker Du means 'do you remember ?' in Danish (trust me, I'm Danish).
cheers,
Nic
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:08:51 -0500
Reply-To: cmdumond@ehc.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac Archives
Comments: cc: jgrant@bookzen.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
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How about we clear some things up right now, eh?
Jo, your response is exactly what I'm talking about. Because you were
terribly offended by what was a sarcastic comment in a post script, you
emailed me to discuss the matter further, in private. This was a
perfectly acceptable course of action. However, exposing my response to
a public critique in a public forum is not acceptable. Taking a comment
and posting it ENTIRELY out of context, in a public forum is bad form.
The topic of INFORMATION being released about the FACTS of the archives,
rights and other material pertaining to the dispute was NEVER brought up
by myself. Specifically, I refer to your recent actions regarding me,
as objectionable. I support the truth, NOT the threats that Nicosia has
received or name calling involved on both sides. I am not afraid of the
truth, but find it REDUNDANT after it has been proposed by either side,
multiple times without any result other than insignificant bickering.
I am quite aware of the facts, and extremely interested in the outcome.
Let it be known that this is my last post on the issue, and that I do
not appreciate your infering that I am either ignorant or apathetic.
Good day,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:05:17 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Vonnegut
Content-Type: text/plain
>Hello everyone,
>I just joined this list, and I've just been reading people's posts. I
>haven't read much Beat stuff, but I am interested in it.
>
>I'm a big Vonnegut fan,
So am I... I haven't read "Timequake" but I've read a lot of his other
stuff.. though it's been so long since I've read much of it I don't
quite remember now.
I loved "Breakfast of Champions", "Bluebeard", and "Jailbird".
But, of course I love them all.
I realize Vonnegut isn't a beat, but he does often bring up interesting
issues.. such as religion in "The Sirens of Titan" and many others in
"Slaughterhouse Five" which was one of the most censored books of the
century.
Take care all,
Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:29:40 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mik Retep <mysterioso@MAILCITY.COM>
Organization: MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com)
Subject: Re: Vonnegut
Comments: To: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>Hello everyone,
>>I just joined this list, and I've just been reading people's posts. I
>>haven't read much Beat stuff, but I am interested in it.
>>
>>I'm a big Vonnegut fan,
>
>
>So am I... I haven't read "Timequake" but I've read a lot of his other
>stuff.. though it's been so long since I've read much of it I don't
>quite remember now.
>I loved "Breakfast of Champions", "Bluebeard", and "Jailbird".
>But, of course I love them all.
>I realize Vonnegut isn't a beat, but he does often bring up interesting
>issues.. such as religion in "The Sirens of Titan" and many others in
>"Slaughterhouse Five" which was one of the most censored books of the
>century.
>
>Take care all,
>Greg
This is really off the subject of Beats now, but I had to tell you that a movie
is
in the works based on Breakfast of Champions -- starring Bruce Willis! Ugh.
Free web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:37:38 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: A Pome for the weekend...
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
For all seekers of spirituality on Shabbat, the Sabbath, Saturday-coming,
Sunday-soon, wild lost weekenders, weary petitioners and penetants: a pome to
ponder.
.........................................
God, by JACK KEROUAC
In his jests serious, in his murders victim,
or which, is God? Who began
before non-existence's dependence
on existence, Who came before
the chicken and the egg
Who started out
enormous Light
the dark brilliance of the Mystery
for all good hearts to shroud inside
and keep their understanding sympathy
intact as Beethoven's courageous
slow sigh.
In his atrocities victim?
In his jests damned?
In his damnation damnation?
Or is God just the golden hover
light manifesting Mayakay
the illusion of the moon, branches
across the face of the moon?
O perturbing swttlontaggek
montiana godio
Thou high suffermaker!
Tell me now, in Your Poem!
>From "Pomes All Sizes"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:43:24 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andre Gauthier <agauthi@CCO.NET>
Subject: Re: the contest!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you write, draw, know jokes, take pictures, all shapes, sizes, =
colors, creeds, and sexual preferences, (you don't even have to be that =
good at it) then submit them to my zine, 96 MILES TO PORTLAND. For more =
information e-mail me.
-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Vandenbroucke [SMTP:jvanden@DEC1.ETHS.K12.IL.US]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 1998 7:20 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: the contest!
Hello everyone,
I just joined this list, and I've just been reading people's posts. I
haven't read much Beat stuff, but I am interested in it.
I'm a big Vonnegut fan, so this post caught my attention. I'm sorry if
this is off topic, but what did you guys think of Timequake?
Justin
Very good, I just finished a presentation on Kurt Vonnegut, focusing on =
Breakfast of Champions and Timequake
Janelle
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:32:15 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: silence
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
has any one heard about a art show in new orleans of williams works with
some sculpture. May be in february?
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:32:33 +0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Yan Feng <yfeng@PUBLIC1.TPT.TJ.CN>
Subject: Nirvana
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Has Kurt Cobin ever been mentioned on the list?
I oneday ran across in a biography of him, says that, he read Rimbau and
WSB.
Ciao
Yan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:57:14 +0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Yan Feng <yfeng@PUBLIC1.TPT.TJ.CN>
Subject: There are three birds in the tree
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"There are three birds in the tree,a man shoot one, how many birds are there
now?"
This is a puzzle i had been asked as child.
3-1=2 ?
All birds'd be frightened and fly away.
The old man was warning me that logic is sometimes too simple to deal with
real world problem.
Yesterday i saw it in a commonweal advertising, which is to warn people to
preseve birds.
Yan
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:04:14 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nicolai Pharao <nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: Nirvana
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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May interest you to know that Cobain and Burroughs made a single together. It is
Burroughs reading The 'Priest' They Called Him while Cobain makes his guitar
squeal and howl in the background. Far as I know the two parts were recorded
seperately.
Nic
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:08:25 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: FLAME WARNING!
Content-Type: text/plain
ok, this is going to sound harsh...but i feel i am right in every sense
of the word in my statement to follow...
if it is NOT beat related...make it PRIVATE!!!!!!!!!
if you cannot handle that..get OFF THE LIST!!!!!!!!!
i get 30+ messages a day, and only about 3 or 4 are beat related...
i am TIRED of hearing about card games...debates on metal/punk bands
and the freakin' kerochat debate...
i wouldn't chat with half you guys if they glued my eyes open and
strapped me to a computer....
you'd probably discuss the persian gulf crisis or something!!!!!
PLEASE!!!
it's a beat list....
use it only for that reason....
-julian
ps, my apologies again at the flame-content...
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:13:58 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mik Retep <mysterioso@MAILCITY.COM>
Organization: MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com)
Subject: Re: Nirvana
Comments: To: Nicolai Pharao <nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>May interest you to know that Cobain and Burroughs made a single together. It
is
>Burroughs reading The 'Priest' They Called Him while Cobain makes his guitar
>squeal and howl in the background. Far as I know the two parts were recorded
>seperately.
>
>Nic
>
If you're one of the lucky few to own a copy -- pat yourself on the back. It's
a
real treasure. As is the case with virtually every poet, the words are so much
more
compelling when heard, than when read. WSB is a real madman!
Pete
Free web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:19:04 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mik Retep <mysterioso@MAILCITY.COM>
Organization: MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com)
Subject: Re: FLAME WARNING!
Comments: To: Julian Ruck <julian42@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> ok, this is going to sound harsh...but i feel i am right in every sense
>of the word in my statement to follow...
>
> if it is NOT beat related...make it PRIVATE!!!!!!!!!
> if you cannot handle that..get OFF THE LIST!!!!!!!!!
> i get 30+ messages a day, and only about 3 or 4 are beat related...
> i am TIRED of hearing about card games...debates on metal/punk bands
>and the freakin' kerochat debate...
> i wouldn't chat with half you guys if they glued my eyes open and
>strapped me to a computer....
> you'd probably discuss the persian gulf crisis or something!!!!!
> PLEASE!!!
> it's a beat list....
> use it only for that reason....
> -julian
>
>ps, my apologies again at the flame-content...
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
As a new-comer to this list, (I was on it for about 3 months last year, went
away,
but am back) I probably shouldn't say this, but I can't help myself. Although I
do agree with the content of your post, I think you should have been a bit more
judicious
in the tone you took. There are good and bad ways to communicate -- not
necessarily
right and wrong -- just good and bad. I have to say your choice of words was
pretty
bad.
But really, who the fuck am I to say.
Pete
Free web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:16:25 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Nirvana
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yan Feng wrote:
>
> Has Kurt Cobin ever been mentioned on the list?
> I oneday ran across in a biography of him, says that, he read Rimbau and
> WSB.
>
> Ciao
> Yan
actually, curt cobain and wsb were friends. the latter said that latter
was his favorite musician, and i believe that 'pennyroyal tea' is
dedicated to him. also, it is probably not coincidence that cobain shot
himself with a rifle; i think i read somewhere that guns were their
common interest.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:20:29 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nirvana
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
WSB and Cobain made a cd. I don't remember the name of it, but Cobain
plays guitar while B. reads -- haunting stuff.
Preston
>Has Kurt Cobin ever been mentioned on the list?
>I oneday ran across in a biography of him, says that, he read Rimbau and
>WSB.
>
>Ciao
>Yan
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:24:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: FLAME WARNING!
In-Reply-To: <19980117180825.28614.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Right on, Julian!!!!!! Damn straight! I said roughly the same thing about 3
months ago, and now everybody hates me! So brace yourself, 'bud! My
suggestion didn't make a difference... I don't know if yours will either...
so as always, keep your finger at the ready above the delete button! *grin*
--Sara
At 10:08 AM 1/17/98 -0800, you wrote:
> ok, this is going to sound harsh...but i feel i am right in every sense
>of the word in my statement to follow...
>
> if it is NOT beat related...make it PRIVATE!!!!!!!!!
> if you cannot handle that..get OFF THE LIST!!!!!!!!!
> i get 30+ messages a day, and only about 3 or 4 are beat related...
> i am TIRED of hearing about card games...debates on metal/punk bands
>and the freakin' kerochat debate...
> i wouldn't chat with half you guys if they glued my eyes open and
>strapped me to a computer....
> you'd probably discuss the persian gulf crisis or something!!!!!
> PLEASE!!!
> it's a beat list....
> use it only for that reason....
> -julian
>
>ps, my apologies again at the flame-content...
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:25:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: FLAME WARNING!
In-Reply-To: <BFPHIMAPCALEAAAA@mailcity.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>As a new-comer to this list, (I was on it for about 3 months last year, went
> away,
>but am back) I probably shouldn't say this, but I can't help myself.
Although I
>do agree with the content of your post, I think you should have been a bit
more
> judicious
>in the tone you took. There are good and bad ways to communicate -- not
> necessarily
>right and wrong -- just good and bad. I have to say your choice of words was
> pretty
>bad.
>
>But really, who the fuck am I to say.
>
>
>Pete
>
Speaking of fucking choice of fucking words..... *laughing*
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:37:45 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa--Update
Comments: To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Diane M. Homza wrote:
>
> Reply to message from dcarter@TOGETHER.NET of Tue, 13 Jan
>
> I must have missed soemthing...what happened to him???
>
> Diane. (H)
>
> >
> >Hi everyone,
> >
> >It looks like David will be in the hospital for more than a couple of
> >days. Here is the address for any of you that want to send him cards,
> >best wishes, things to cheer him up, etc. Phone calls are not a good
> >idea at this point and he does not have access to e-mail in the hospital.
> >Anyone wishing to send him an e-mail message can send it to me and I will
> >print them out, along with the many I have already received, and get them
> >to him. His address is:
> >
> >David Rhaesa
> >Salina Regional Medical Center
> >Room 107, North Wing
> >400 S. Santa Fe
> >Salina, KS 67401
> >
> >Let's all keep him in our thoughts and prayers. I'm sure all of the
> >positive vibes will help a great deal!
> >DC
> >
> >
>
> --
> "This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
> --Jack Kerouac
> Diane Marie Homza
> ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
i must have missed something TOO! What happened to me? Many possible
theories to twirl someday about this brief hospitalization. My rule is
not to work to hard at "figuring it all out" right away.
anyway, it was beautiful to come home to so many kind messages.
now i will turn off this little computer (who i missed desperately while
i was in-hospital) and take a much needed home-style siesta.
wishing y'all and y'uens well,
david rhaesa
Nita #23
salina
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:43:39 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "V.J. Eaton" <vj@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: He's Right, Ironically<g> Was Re: FLAME WARNING!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> i wouldn't chat with half you guys if they glued my eyes open and
>strapped me to a computer....
> you'd probably discuss the persian gulf crisis or something!!!!!
Hey, mixed metaphor! --and, too, ironically, not. Beat poets often use
devices just such as this quite effectively (OBLIG Beat reference).
____________________
Sorry, =:-)) The irony is too provoking (easily 4 levels). It had to be
done!
But makes possible a seque to this apology:
--Julian is right about recalling topics to center.
--And, RE: (the hopefully short-lived) Kerochat off-topic bantering, for
one, me:Guilty, I provoked it, so apologize to the group, and to TKQ for
lack of restraint. I wigged.
Hey, but BTW, you guys hear about the priest, and the rabbi, and the . . . . . .
_____________________
More harm is done under guise of goodness than ever realized
by foul deed or evil doer. Nevertheless, I wish I was good.
--Herbert Huncke
V.J. Eaton
Tempe, AZ
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:56:30 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: FLAME WARNING!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mik Retep wrote:
>
> > ok, this is going to sound harsh...<...snip>...
> > PLEASE!!!
> > it's a beat list....
> > use it only for that reason....
> > -julian
> >
> >ps, my apologies again at the flame-content...
> >
> >
> As a new-comer to this list...<snip>... I think you should have been a bit
more
> judicious
> in the tone you took. There are good and bad ways to communicate -- not
> necessarily
> right and wrong -- just good and bad. I have to say your choice of words was
> pretty
> bad.
>
> But really, who the fuck am I to say.
>
> Pete
tkc sez:
i don't think people should moderate their tone
i think the beat movement started in the 1940s, and was connected to the
various avant arts of the peroid. the fact that posters today spill
over to other topics of art, religion and pop culture show that the beat
tradition is living, and not the death rattle of 'academics'
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:13:25 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Kerochat Sunday Night!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi folks, just a reminder that The Kerouac Quarterly will have a formal chat
on the novel, Visions of Cody. That will be Sunday night, 8:00 Pm EST. Be
patient with the server, we suggest using the "lite" version, and then sign
on with a nickname...that's allthere is to it! Hope to see some of you
there..Paul ofTKQ.
P.S. We especially want to chat with people from Tempe, Arizona... :)
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 05:51:01 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Kerouac: Catholicism vs Buddhism
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I wanted to respond to this theme earlier in the week when it was posted
but I was too bogged down with work at the time and then I lost the
original message, but here goes anyway. The original poster who wanted
to know the difference between the first noble truth, all is suffering
and the passage from Romans where the earth moans (or whatever), hit on
what I think is a big similarity rather than a difference. Both
Catholicism and Buddhism ask one to look within to experience the
transcendent and at one level both are mythic attempts aimed at the same
experience. In the Catholic church is this very apparent in the
experience of the mass. One is eating the body of Christ, one is
awakening the Christhood within. Jesus as the son of God through his
sacrifice made man and God one again. It is all achieved through
symbolism and metaphor. The journey inward in Buddhism eventually
reaches a recognition of the Buddhahood within--the basic open heart of
the person. Both Catholicism and Buddhism lead to an experience with the
transcendent through an open heart. In both religions suffering
in the world exists. Jesus didn't end suffering in this world, he gave
redemption, atonement of sin, an ending of the separation of God and man.
I'm not sure where Kerouac got blocked in his understanding of either
Catholicism or Buddhism and I think this is an interesting topic for
discussion. Either one of these could have brought him to an experience
of the transcendent but he seemed disappointed in both. Both require a
letting go of some parts of the rational mind and maybe that's why his
spiritual search never ended.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:52:16 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Kerochat Sunday Night!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
And remember, it's accessible via irc...chat.talkcity.com, port 6667,
#kerochat.
Adrien
TKQ wrote:
>
> Hi folks, just a reminder that The Kerouac Quarterly will have a formal chat
> on the novel, Visions of Cody. That will be Sunday night, 8:00 Pm EST. Be
> patient with the server, we suggest using the "lite" version, and then sign
> on with a nickname...that's allthere is to it! Hope to see some of you
> there..Paul ofTKQ.
>
> P.S. We especially want to chat with people from Tempe, Arizona... :)
>
> http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:26:16 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Nirvana
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Read somewhere that JK was one of Cobain's favorite poets... Would any of you
categorise Kurt Cobain as being "beat" or even a poet? I'm not very familiar
w/ him, except for the few songs played on the radio, and the patches I see on
every school bag/ pictures on every shirt in my high school. I myself am very
hesitant to feed into the "kurt worship" but I am curious as to if he really
has (or should have had) a claim to fame other than just being Kurt Cobain.
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:49:59 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: a world where the cat smiles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980115111737.106A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Preston Whaley says:
>
> The cardinal doctrine of existentialism according to Sartre is "existence
> precedes essence;" we are born into the world a zero and create our own
> being from there. It presupposes absolute freedom. Nothing is ordained.
~but J.P. Sartre wrote _l'etre et le neant_ in a concentration camp
~during the WWII. his best are the collected tales _the wall_ and
~if someone remember the plot of the wall it's very noir, what's the
~worst to be buriend still alive...
~ Is all that we see or seem
~ But a dream within a dream? --edgar all poe
> Infinite creative possibilities. Camus and Sartre are good places to go
~Camus died in a car crash in early 60s'
> for prose realization of the philosophy. It's less explicit in Kerouac
> because he's so subjective but the Nietzchean uberman Dean Moriarty
~nietzsche beyond the human (uberman) the genetic of the beat
~generation, the transbeat in the XXI century, the transmutation
~of our faith, of the youth, the genius like a circus freak or
~really a human being/new machine/new factory/creative?
~saluti,
~the beetle of venice. * the cechov'c cat is smiling... *
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:10:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: "Tone"
In-Reply-To: <34C0AA7D.171A@zipcon.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> tkc sez:
>
> i don't think people should moderate their tone
>
> i think the beat movement started in the 1940s, and was connected to the
> various avant arts of the peroid. the fact that posters today spill
> over to other topics of art, religion and pop culture show that the beat
> tradition is living, and not the death rattle of 'academics'
>
Damn straight. What would have happened if, when writing "Howl,"
Alan Ginsberg had decided to "moderate his tone?" --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:28:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: FRANKLIN CARTER <nilknarf@TACONIC.NET>
Subject: poems wanted
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The Cosmic Baseball Association world wide web site is looking for poems
about/dedicated to/inspired by the following beat-related people for its
1998 team roster of the Dharma Beats: William Burroughs, Carolyn Cassady,
Neal Cassady, John Cassady, Jan Keroac, Diane DiPrima, Diana Hansen, Joyce
Johnson, Michael McClure, Gary Snyder, Levi Asher, Lucien Carr, Elise
Cowen, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Joan Haverty, Luanne Henderson, Gregory
Corso, Kenneth Rexroth, Philip Whalen, Robert Kelly, Ann Charters, Gerald
Nicosia, John Sampas, Gabrielle Keroac, Charles Plynell. Poems about the
lesser known of the above are especially welcome. Deadline is February 10.
Check out the CBA web site and e-mail poems to Lynn Behrendt at
Nilknarf@taconic.net.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:47:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mik Retep <mysterioso@MAILCITY.COM>
Organization: MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com)
Subject: Re: "Tone"
Comments: To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>> tkc sez:
>>
>> i don't think people should moderate their tone
>>
>> i think the beat movement started in the 1940s, and was connected to the
>> various avant arts of the peroid. the fact that posters today spill
>> over to other topics of art, religion and pop culture show that the beat
>> tradition is living, and not the death rattle of 'academics'
>>
> Damn straight. What would have happened if, when writing "Howl,"
>Alan Ginsberg had decided to "moderate his tone?" --Sara
I didn't mean to moderate his tone in his poetry or his writings or his opinions
concerning literature. I simply meant that when asking a person or persons to
cease
a particular activity -- it's often wise to first do it in a kind and respectful
manner (and if that fails, there are other ways to handle those situations), not
in the way that he/she chose to. It's common sense and it's respect for others.
That's all. Don't turn this into some silly call against censorship. I'm not
a
nazi, I'm not an asshole.
And by the way, Ginsberg's Poetry and a post on a listserv asking people to stop
discussing non-Beat subjects is not a logical ananlogy.
Peter
ps: lets not turn this into a thread -- because ironically, it'll only distract
us
from discussing what we're really here for.
Free web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:03:17 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel <thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization: None
Subject: Re: Kerouac: Catholicism vs Buddhism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Diane Carter wrote:
>=20
> Both require a letting go of some parts of the rational mind and maybe =
> that's why his spiritual search never ended.
> DC
So you're saying he had trouble letting go some parts of the rational
mind? The mind ALWAYS is rational. There aren't any parts to it. It
is or it isn't. You're either being rational or you aren't. People
can't handle death and things like that, they've gotta have something to
believe in. It's got nothing to do with rationality, but with
weaknesses/fears. The question we should ask ourselves is in what way
Roman Catholicism was responsible for Jack Kerouac leaving planet earth
way too soon, or at least ru=EFning all those year he didn't spend 'On th=
e
Road'. For alcohol did the rest. To me, the three devils in Jacks life
were (in no particular order): M=E9m=E8re, Rom. Cath., booze.
If all he had ever known would've been Buddhism, I think he'd have had a
much more fulfilling life. His brother's death and the way the catholic
community acted, gave him 'responsibilities' (to him), that weren't his
to carry.
L8R
Thomas Van Moortel
> God's in his heaven, All's right with the world
(R. Browning)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:17:13 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel <thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization: None
Subject: Re: Nirvana (there's a bug in the bassbin)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Zucchini4 wrote:
>
> Read somewhere that JK was one of Cobain's favorite poets... Would any of you
> categorise Kurt Cobain as being "beat" or even a poet? I'm not very familiar
> w/ him, except for the few songs played on the radio, and the patches I see on
> every school bag/ pictures on every shirt in my high school. I myself am very
> hesitant to feed into the "kurt worship" but I am curious as to if he really
> has (or should have had) a claim to fame other than just being Kurt Cobain.
>
> --Stephanie
People still wear Kurt Cobain t-shirts in your high school? I kinda
feel sorry for you. What about the Chemical Brothers, Aphex Twin,
Carl Craig? Any of those? Kurt Cobain SHOULD NOT be worshipped.
Nirvana should be remembered (THREE members) for their music; music
that was relevant... years ago. Nowadays, what then (back in them days)
was called 'Grunge' now is as dead as Kurt Cobain (he shot his head off)
is. The truth is Cobain was a sad little loser who couldn't handle fame
bla bla bla. He was also a drug-addict. K.C.-worshippers are
short-sighted and dress accordingly.
The only thing Cobain had in common with the beats, Jack Kerouac to be
specific, was the sad way his life ended. And that's it. The beats had
a 'way of life', 'love your life out', they MEANT something, Kurt Cobain
didn't mean anything. His music did, sure, but now it sounds old-
fashioned. And a poem he definitely was not (his lyrics are o.k.
but that's it). Jack Kerouac was no poet either. That is: I've never
read any (good) poem by him.
L8R
Thomas Van Moortel
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:42:06 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: KRUMMX <KRUMMX@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: poems wanted
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
i have one i dedicated to Burroughs
are you interested?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:15:57 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Anniversary of Gulf War
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Attention Julian Ruck
I believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
when george bush was preisident.
The war was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
neighboring country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
historically their territory.
A United Nations coalition, led by the US, then fought militarily to retake
Kuwait back from the Iraqi army who had overrun and occupied Kuwait.
Saddam Hussein was villified and criticized, sometimes called the punnish
So Damn Insane by those who didn't like him.
One of the consequences of the Iraqi defeat was that a UN agreement that
Iraq would allow UN inspectoators in to their country and various plants to
inspect to make sure no weapons were being produced that violate UN
treaties.
That is apparently the crux of the problem today in that Hussein does not
want to fufill his part of the UN agreement concerning the UN inspectors.
So Julian, thanks for bringing this topic up and asking about it. I never
would have mentioned it or thought about it if you hadn't asked.
I hope this answered all your questions and am glad to help you out, but I
think maybe you should stick more to discussing the beats when on the list.
But hey whatever you want!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:06:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0e6a53ca319@[128.125.229.170]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Jesus fucking Christ, people... This list is so non-Beat 90% pf the time,
it makes me fucking sick. Maybe 2 out of ten messages are worth a damn,
the rest is drivel. Silly me, I stay on the list for those two out of ten
posts. And Timothy, I don't think you have any right to fuck with Julian
like this. HE HAS A POINT!!!! It's true! Most of the posts on this list
are about as beat as Martha Stewart!!!!! Julian, e-mail me, and we can
discuss the literature in depth, which is the reason that aI joined this
damn list in the first place! Thank God David's back, Dave, I missed your
insight!!!!!
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> Attention Julian Ruck
>
> I believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
> when george bush was preisident.
>
> The war was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
> neighboring country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
> historically their territory.
>
> A United Nations coalition, led by the US, then fought militarily to retake
> Kuwait back from the Iraqi army who had overrun and occupied Kuwait.
> Saddam Hussein was villified and criticized, sometimes called the punnish
> So Damn Insane by those who didn't like him.
>
> One of the consequences of the Iraqi defeat was that a UN agreement that
> Iraq would allow UN inspectoators in to their country and various plants to
> inspect to make sure no weapons were being produced that violate UN
> treaties.
>
> That is apparently the crux of the problem today in that Hussein does not
> want to fufill his part of the UN agreement concerning the UN inspectors.
>
> So Julian, thanks for bringing this topic up and asking about it. I never
> would have mentioned it or thought about it if you hadn't asked.
>
> I hope this answered all your questions and am glad to help you out, but I
> think maybe you should stick more to discussing the beats when on the list.
>
> But hey whatever you want!!!
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:11:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Tone"
In-Reply-To: <KMBNMCLFFPMFAAAA@mailcity.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> That's all. Don't turn this into some silly call against censorship. I'm
not a
> nazi, I'm not an asshole.
>
> And by the way, Ginsberg's Poetry and a post on a listserv asking people to
stop
> discussing non-Beat subjects is not a logical ananlogy.
Hmmmm... re-read that sentence, and tell me if it make any
sense...
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:16:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
Comments: To: Thomas Van Moortel <thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
In-Reply-To: <34C14A08.263E@skynet.be>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I take it you haven't read any of his poems, then!!! You need to read
Mexico City Blues, Scattered Poems, Pomes All Sizes and Book of Blues
IMMEDIATELY. If you still believe that Jack Kerouac was not a good poet,
get help. --Sara
> but that's it). Jack Kerouac was no poet either. That is: I've never
> read any (good) poem by him.
>
> L8R
> Thomas Van Moortel
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:14:11 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> Jesus fucking Christ, people... This list is so non-Beat 90% pf the time,
> it makes me fucking sick. Maybe 2 out of ten messages are worth a damn,
> the rest is drivel.
thank goodness all us drivel addicts have someplace to bury our
nostrils.
Silly me, I stay on the list for those two out of ten
> posts. And Timothy, I don't think you have any right to fuck with Julian
> like this. HE HAS A POINT!!!! It's true! Most of the posts on this list
> are about as beat as Martha Stewart!!!!!
Is she really Jimmy Stewart's illegitimate daughter - and will there be
an estate battle?
Julian, e-mail me, and we can
> discuss the literature in depth, which is the reason that aI joined this
> damn list in the first place! Thank God David's back, Dave, I missed your
> insight!!!!!
i missed the forum.
dbr
>
> On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> > Attention Julian Ruck
> >
> > I believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
> > when george bush was preisident.
> >
> > The war was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
> > neighboring country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
> > historically their territory.
> >
> > A United Nations coalition, led by the US, then fought militarily to retake
> > Kuwait back from the Iraqi army who had overrun and occupied Kuwait.
> > Saddam Hussein was villified and criticized, sometimes called the punnish
> > So Damn Insane by those who didn't like him.
> >
> > One of the consequences of the Iraqi defeat was that a UN agreement that
> > Iraq would allow UN inspectoators in to their country and various plants to
> > inspect to make sure no weapons were being produced that violate UN
> > treaties.
> >
> > That is apparently the crux of the problem today in that Hussein does not
> > want to fufill his part of the UN agreement concerning the UN inspectors.
> >
> > So Julian, thanks for bringing this topic up and asking about it. I never
> > would have mentioned it or thought about it if you hadn't asked.
> >
> > I hope this answered all your questions and am glad to help you out, but I
> > think maybe you should stick more to discussing the beats when on the list.
> >
> > But hey whatever you want!!!
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:20:00 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: SPElias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa--Update
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Nice to have you back; you >have, been sorely missed; stay well, stay happy..
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:17:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: "Tone"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> > That's all. Don't turn this into some silly call against censorship. I'm
> not a
> > nazi, I'm not an asshole.
> >
> > And by the way, Ginsberg's Poetry and a post on a listserv asking people to
> stop
> > discussing non-Beat subjects is not a logical ananlogy.
>
> Hmmmm... re-read that sentence, and tell me if it make any
> sense...
my impression was that the medium of for-publication poetry and the
medium of listserve banter would have very different fields of relevancy
and tone. And of course, analogy was mistyped.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:20:50 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> Attention Julian Ruck
>
> I believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
> when george bush was preisident.
>
> The war was started when
i was walking up the backstairways of Centennial Hall at Augustana
College. i'd been following the news fairly carefully as my big brother
was stationed in the desert.
so the news of actual warfare as opposed to suntanning lessons struck me
harshly. i can't say i really knew where i was for some moments. then
a room of undergraduate debaters was staring at me ... wondering what
next. a practice debate was scheduled.
i didn't think twice - go on as planned. i couldn't have stood to sit
alone worrying about my brother on that first night. work was a decent
means to avoid the selfish and sentimental concerns i had for one
soldier amidst the many fighting on both sides of whatever the cause
was.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:24:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Tone"
In-Reply-To: <34C1742E.6A36@midusa.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> Sara Feustle wrote:
> >
> > > That's all. Don't turn this into some silly call against censorship.
I'm
> > not a
> > > nazi, I'm not an asshole.
> > >
> > > And by the way, Ginsberg's Poetry and a post on a listserv asking people
to
> > stop
> > > discussing non-Beat subjects is not a logical ananlogy.
> >
> > Hmmmm... re-read that sentence, and tell me if it make any
> > sense...
>
> my impression was that the medium of for-publication poetry and the
> medium of listserve banter would have very different fields of relevancy
> and tone. And of course, analogy was mistyped.
GOD, I missed your posts, David!! Did you read anything good while
you were on the mend? --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:25:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Pull My Daisy
In-Reply-To: <34C1742E.6A36@midusa.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Has anyone seen the movie "Pull My Daisy?" How is it? Is it worth
ordering?
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:33:47 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Pull My Daisy is a fun film to watch. It doesn't make much sense at
first (it commands repeated viewings), but Kerouac's narration is a
total delight. Highly highly highly reccommended!
Adrien
Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> Has anyone seen the movie "Pull My Daisy?" How is it? Is it worth
> ordering?
>
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:40:36 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Abe Lincoln
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> Was not Abe Lincoln a sufferer from MD/Bipolar?
>
A wooden plaque with the Lincoln Memorial sits on my wall because of
this rumour. It is to remind me in hardtimes that some folks with my
illness have amounted to something afterall.
Since the purchase i have come to the conclusion that the diagnosis is
less than certain. It is based on historians playing psychiatrist or
psychiatrists playing historians. I have to wonder if any one's diaries
and journals and collective writings were left open to close scrutiny if
some form of diagnosis would not spurt forth. But i keep him on the
wall nonetheless!
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:48:25 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Abe Lincoln
In-Reply-To: <34C179B4.36BB@midusa.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Well, at least you're rumored to be in good company!!! I've heard that
Howard Stern AND the Unabomber have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. Not
very encouraging... *grin*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> >
> > Was not Abe Lincoln a sufferer from MD/Bipolar?
> >
>
> A wooden plaque with the Lincoln Memorial sits on my wall because of
> this rumour. It is to remind me in hardtimes that some folks with my
> illness have amounted to something afterall.
>
> Since the purchase i have come to the conclusion that the diagnosis is
> less than certain. It is based on historians playing psychiatrist or
> psychiatrists playing historians. I have to wonder if any one's diaries
> and journals and collective writings were left open to close scrutiny if
> some form of diagnosis would not spurt forth. But i keep him on the
> wall nonetheless!
>
> > --
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > Bentz
> > bocelts@scsn.net
> > http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:45:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman <the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<LURK MODE OFF>
<SMILE>
Just a thought. . . the continuous discussion of what should or shouldn't
be discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say shouldn't
be posted. . .
<GRIN>
<CHUCKLE>
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:13:13 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 17-Jan-98 7:08:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU writes:
<< I don't think you have any right to fuck with Julian
like this. HE HAS A POINT!!!! It's true! Most of the posts on this list
are about as beat as Martha Stewart!!!!! Julian, e-mail me, and we can
discuss the literature in depth, which is the reason that aI joined this
damn list in the first place! >>
Sara, if you have something in-depth to contribute about Beat literature, why
are you asking for private correspondence, rather than starting a thread?
I know lately I've posted a few things--the Proust questions, a poem by Jack
titled "God," and a few other things--that are without question appropriate to
this list, but you made no comment. In fact, there was very little comment.
Not everything everyone says elicits comment, and not everything requires
comment. Also, it seems to me the majority of comments continue to come from
students, and are in the form of questions.
All of that is fair on this "unmoderated forum," as it says in the "Welcome"
letter.
There's a thread hanging about Buddhism and Christianity that hasn't seen much
action. I think that's always a great subject--how Jack lived in both of those
worlds, or how each of those worlds failed/served him.
Once in a while a little dry wit does seem appropriate, though, as in
Timothy's post, which, while being facetious, was also a reminder: it's only a
newsgroup; it's not real life. Don't take it too seriously.
I'm looking forward to the next thread you start, and will be happy to respond
to it to the best of my ability. Okay?
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:19:22 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: threads while i was gone (was Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
IDDHI wrote:
>
>
> There's a thread hanging about Buddhism and Christianity that hasn't seen much
> action. I think that's always a great subject--how Jack lived in both of those
> worlds, or how each of those worlds failed/served him.
>
> Maggie
i'm looking forward to following this one in some detail. my Daddy is a
retired presbyterian minister and when i told him about the dichotomy
between the two religions he just said that Jack shoulda been
Presbyterian! (i'm going to start calling Father's religion Celtic
Christianity and see if it gets his goat!)
I think that many of the threads the beats discussed in and out of their
literature strike us to the bone (a phrase i lovingly steal from
patricia) in such a way that it is very easy to be talking about the
beats in between the lines of typing and characters of individual words
just about anytime we sit and commun-icate with others of like
interest.
the candor and openness that I've heard attributed to A.Ginsberg is a
wonderful thing --- especially with a forum such as this in which candor
is a high level principle. it would be a shame for anyone to get the
hairs on the back of their necks crawling too high or too stiffly over a
post here or there by anyone.
as for rules of engagement on this listserve, i've broken them already
many times and am looking forward to breaking any new one's coming out
in the just published guide "Emily Post tells how to type on
listserves".
peace, joy, and understanding,
david rhaesa (race)
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:29:45 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Archive Post
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
jo grant wrote:
>
> If it will help you be a little less "tired" I will add "Keroauc Archive
> Post" to the SUBJECT line--starting with this post--so you can delete
> without having to read the post.
>
>
> j grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
jo,
i think this is definitely a good idea. personally, i must admit that i
have followed the various archive threads about as closely as i CNN
during the Orange Juice Trial. BUT - putting on the thinking cap
associated with legal thought takes some work and i prefer to let the
messages stack up a bit before examining them. i don't think it is wise
to chill your expression on this or other matters but i think your
suggestion here provides a very useful compromise for all involved.
Personally, my more immediate interest in these regards is with the
potential loss of the Memory Babe Archives to the community. I would
hope that you might extend your information service on those matters to
include a Subject heading Memory Babe Archive Post.
I think this allows everyone to deal with the information in the best
means possible.
but of course, feel free to ignore my message too!
david rhaesa (race)
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:22:15 +0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Yan Feng <yfeng@PUBLIC1.TPT.TJ.CN>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
><LURK MODE OFF>
><SMILE>
>Just a thought. . . the continuous discussion of what should or shouldn't
>be discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say shouldn't
>be posted. . .
><GRIN>
><CHUCKLE>
>
>Bruce
>
What's you listers' understanding of beats may be very interesting,
specially to me, because i am doubting about my understanding of beats.
Yan
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:46:52 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Nirvana
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Zucchini4 wrote:
>
> Read somewhere that JK was one of Cobain's favorite poets... Would any of you
> categorise Kurt Cobain as being "beat" or even a poet? I'm not very familiar
> w/ him
> --Stephanie
well, i liked his stuff. there was a lot of humor and honesty in
nirvana's music, and i found it head and shoulders above pearl jam,
counting crows, stone temple pilots and other similar sounding bands.
if patti smith is beat, i think he could be, too...
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:19:54 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: Catholicism vs Buddhism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Thomas Van Moortel wrote:=20
> So you're saying he had trouble letting go some parts of the rational
> mind? The mind ALWAYS is rational. There aren't any parts to it. It
> is or it isn't. You're either being rational or you aren't. People
> can't handle death and things like that, they've gotta have something=20
> to
> believe in. It's got nothing to do with rationality, but with
> weaknesses/fears. The question we should ask ourselves is in what way
> Roman Catholicism was responsible for Jack Kerouac leaving planet earth
> way too soon, or at least ru=EFning all those year he didn't spend 'On=20
> the
> Road'. For alcohol did the rest. To me, the three devils in Jacks=20
> life
> were (in no particular order): M=E9m=E8re, Rom. Cath., booze.
> If all he had ever known would've been Buddhism, I think he'd have had=20
> a
> much more fulfilling life. His brother's death and the way the=20
> catholic
> community acted, gave him 'responsibilities' (to him), that weren't his
> to carry.
I'm saying that Kerouac had many epiphanies, many experiences that=20
touched the transcendent, but his mind got in the way when it came to=20
understanding the significance of those experiences. Belief and faith=20
begin where logical reasoning ends. There are so many places in his work=
=20
where he describes the oneness and beauty that is within and behind all=20
things but the moments are short and he never quite grasps it in living=20
his daily life. I don't think it was the Catholic Church that was the=20
stumblingblock for him spiritually, it was what he saw in himself that he=
=20
didn't like, his own inability to love himself. But I do think you are=20
right that perhaps much of this goes back to Gerard. Gerard was placed=20
on a pedestal, an example of innocence and goodness that died young, an=20
example of goodness that perhaps Kerouac felt he could never live up to.=20
But I also don't think one can blame the church for this problem; it=20
seemed to be more of a family attitude. What obscured both Catholicism=20
and Buddhism for him is best described by that section in Desolation=20
Angels when he writes, "...'When I get to the top of Desolation Peak and=20
everybody leaves on mules and I'm alone I will come face to face with God=
=20
or Tathagata and find out once and for all what is the meaning of this=20
existence and suffering and going to and fro in vain' but instead I'd=20
come face to face with myself..."
DC
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:57:25 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> Attention Julian Ruck
>
> I believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
> when george bush was preisident.
>
> The war was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
> neighboring country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
> historically their territory.
>
don't forget the US at first indicated thru our ambassador we wouldn't
interfere with a border war, and actually armed saddam before the war.
also while iraq was involved in its war with iran, kuwait took control
of much or iraq's oil production territory. this left iraq broke and
with out a means of production to get out of debt
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:44:04 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Alan Harrington's "Secret Swinger"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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I just finished reading this 1966 novel, which I picked up because I had
read that the author had moved in the same circles with Kerouac, Ginsberg,
et al in the 50's (he appears briefly as Hal Hingham in "On The Road"). In
this novel several people are recognizable...briefly Kerouac and John
Clellon Holmes, and two major characters based on Bill Cannastra and
Ginsberg. Ginsberg's characterization (as "George Muchnik") is far from
flattering, portraying him as a manipulative psychological bully. The
entire tone of the novel is panicked despair as the protagonist stumbles
through a rather classic case of mid-life crisis. The ending, however, is
particularly bizarre and gruesome. I was quite disturbed by it. Has
anyone else read this book, and what were your reactions to it? Has anyone
read anything else by Harrington? According to the dust jacket he wrote an
earlier novel called "The Revelations of Dr. Modesto" which is supposed to
be very funny, but after reading this book I'm not too sure what to think.
I welcome any insights anyone can offer me on this.
Thanks,
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:09:40 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Alan Harrington's "Secret Swinger"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
harrington also wrote a book called 'psychopaths' where he allegedly
claims neal cassady was a psychopath. i haven't been able to find it,
though.
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:42:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: beth <Elizabeth.Ann.Mekker@DREXEL.EDU>
Subject: Re: the contest!
In-Reply-To: <01BD22BF.33374500@pm3-1-30.connectcorp.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think I'd like information about you zine. Thanks for all and any you
will give me. beth...
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:42:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: homage to rants/ poetry drivel warning
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The juice
the juice from an orange is alive patricia
this war is all about control.
hell if they wanted to control drugs
then they would tax them.
what they want to do
is to control us.
We stick out like
pink ladies in the short lawn of now.
whispers to that when you try and help
the truely insane, the ones
that only know their own selfishness
they will devour your head whole for breadfast.
No faster way to find the drain hole.
wrap the ozone around your shoulders
let your mind into flights of reality
no greater danger to the status quo
than truth humorously told.
unsheath the penis,
paint the goddam warts
let the curled pubic hairs
clog the public toilets.
just don't pass personal remarks.
ones word can be a tangible coin
take the responsibility and
keep shoving the show up the road.
patricia elliott
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 02:43:46 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac: Catholicism vs Buddhism
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Here's my take on the Catholicism vs Buddhism thang...
Years ago we had a family friend name Gianni Leonardo who made a real big deal
out of being 100% Italian and even became the #1 guy in the local Knights of
Columbus. After about twenty years somebody somehow someway found out that
this guy was in fact named Moshe Shapiro (or something) and that he wanted so
badly to forget his Jewish roots that he made up this whole new identity. And
the comment made by another family friend Freddie Frank (local sage and
Holocast survivor complete with tattoo) to my mother was, "Lo-Rain, Gianni was
born a jew, he lives his life everyday denying he's a jew and one of these
days he's going to die a jew whether he likes it or not". "Truer words were
never spoken", I thought, and this is one of the main reasons when my wife and
I met and married we decided I would not convert to Judaism and she would not
convert to Catholicism. We both firmly believed and still do today that your
image of God your entire life deep down will be the God of your childhood.
And so it was, I believe, with Jacky Keracky. I think Jack saw Buddhism as an
intelletual curiosity and while he maybe wanted to believe and certainly
practiced he knew in his heart he was Ti Jean of the Stations of the Cross.
In fact I know I read, probably in Memory Babe, that Jack himself said he knew
when he was on his deathbed he'd be asking for the last rites.
Interviewer: "How come you've never written about
Jesus?"
Jack Kerouac: "All I write about is Jesus."
Paris
Review, Summer, 1968
Jerry Cimino
Fog City
www.kerouac.com
1-800-KER-OUAC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:55:03 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Has anyone seen the movie "Pull My Daisy?" How is it? Is it worth
>ordering?
>
I've seen it. It's good. It's cool. There is no dialog but kerouac
narrates it and when there is dialog he voices it for the characters.
Worth ordering (but I don't know how much it costs)
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 00:04:14 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: Catholicism vs Buddhism
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Here's my take on the Catholicism vs Buddhism thang...
>
>Years ago we had a family friend name Gianni Leonardo who made a real big deal
>out of being 100% Italian and even became the #1 guy in the local Knights of
>Columbus. After about twenty years somebody somehow someway found out that
>this guy was in fact named Moshe Shapiro (or something) and that he wanted so
>badly to forget his Jewish roots that he made up this whole new identity. And
>the comment made by another family friend Freddie Frank (local sage and
>Holocast survivor complete with tattoo) to my mother was, "Lo-Rain, Gianni was
>born a jew, he lives his life everyday denying he's a jew and one of these
>days he's going to die a jew whether he likes it or not". "Truer words were
>never spoken", I thought, and this is one of the main reasons when my wife and
>I met and married we decided I would not convert to Judaism and she would not
>convert to Catholicism. We both firmly believed and still do today that your
>image of God your entire life deep down will be the God of your childhood.
>
>And so it was, I believe, with Jacky Keracky. I think Jack saw Buddhism as an
>intelletual curiosity and while he maybe wanted to believe and certainly
>practiced he knew in his heart he was Ti Jean of the Stations of the Cross.
>In fact I know I read, probably in Memory Babe, that Jack himself said he knew
>when he was on his deathbed he'd be asking for the last rites.
>
>
> Interviewer: "How come you've never written about
>Jesus?"
>
> Jack Kerouac: "All I write about is Jesus."
>
> Paris
>Review, Summer, 1968
>
>
>Jerry Cimino
>Fog City
>www.kerouac.com
>1-800-KER-OUAC
Yeah, I would also say that the attitude or surprise of gary Snyder to the
"last rites" anecdote (which is in Jack's Book as well as others) even
while kerouac was in the midst of his most strong Buddhist phase is more a
reflection of Snyder's misunderstanding of kerouac and his religious
attitudes and snyder's misunderstanding of (or maybe rather his particular
take on) both Buddhism and Catholicism in the real world.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 00:35:26 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble Question
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
What is the difference between "until now" of Romans 8:22 and the third
noble truth that says suffering can be overcome?
Unfortunately now that I have a chance to respond to responses to the
Keroac-Buddhism-Catholicism post I don't have the specific posts to respond
to, so I'll have to paraphrase.
The initial question was
<<How does the first Noble Truth that all life is suffering differ from
Romans 8:22
"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together
until now."?>>
The first two answers posted were that there was no difference but the
difference came in the consequences of knowing this first noble truth and
in the "answer" or response to it.
One of the responses said that the difference was in the "until now".
I appreciate that. With that in mind then, what is the difference between
"until now" of Romans and the third noble truth that says suffering can be
overcome?
Kerouac wrote number three (on page three of SoD) as "The Supression of
Suffering can be Acheived".
How does that differ from "until now" and what it infers?
(As a side note that may be more important than just a side, Lei Asher's
Lit Kicks site has the 3rd as "3.Suffering can only cease if desire ceases
" slightly different than Kerouac's.
The True Buddha School [http://www.tbsn.org] calls it "Noble Truth of
the Path that leads to the Extinction of Suffering")
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:03:03 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: ferlinghetti & kerouac
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980115111737.106A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
amici miei cari,
kerouac isn't a poet maybe a statement according to
lawrence ferlinghetti who refused to publish jk's mexico city blues
(or i'm wrong?), saluti, rinaldo * the beetle *
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:30:38 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
In-Reply-To: <01bd249a$395cf9c0$LocalHost@---->
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Yan wrote:
>><LURK MODE OFF>
>><SMILE>
>>Just a thought. . . the continuous discussion of what should or shouldn't
>>be discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say shouldn't
>>be posted. . .
>><GRIN>
>><CHUCKLE>
>>
>>Bruce
>>
>What's you listers' understanding of beats may be very interesting,
>specially to me, because i am doubting about my understanding of beats.
>
>Yan
>
Yan,
have you seen the Peace Poem?
Over 400 schools from 38 countries contributed to the Peace Poem by
submitting, via e-mail, two lines of poetry each to the United Nations. The
lines were compiled into a single poem, called the Peace Poem.
http://www.un.org/Pubs/CyberSchoolBus/peaceday/poem/poem.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:24:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian Peterson <peterson@EZNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sara,
There is a video tape that came out in 1995 titled "2 Films by Alfred
Leslie". It has the 1959 film "Pull My Daisy"(29 minutes) and a 1964
film "The Last Clean Shirt"(44 minutes). The Last Clean Shirt has a
dialogue by Frank O'hara and is a gas. I picked up a copy at the Whitney
Museum in NYC during their Beat exposition. At the time it cost about
the same as the more commercial edition with just Pull My Daisy. The
only problem with finding copies is that there is no info on the video
tape or on the jacket as to who published the tape or where it can be
published. Maybe someone out there knows Alfred Leslie or will be
seeing him at a concert or poetry event and can ask if it is still
available. Well worth the effort.
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:43:07 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
Content-Type: text/plain
<REFUSING TO GIVE UP AND UNSUBSCRIBE>
someday people will learn to drop it
<STEPPING BACK TO WAIT FOR THINGS TO SETTLE>
On a beat-note, does anyone know if Ray Bradbury was at all connected to
the beats? He was writing the very prophetic, anti-50's culture at the
same time Howl was going down...
-Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
><LURK MODE OFF>
><SMILE>
>Just a thought. . . the continuous discussion of what should or
shouldn't
>be discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say
shouldn't
>be posted. . .
><GRIN>
><CHUCKLE>
>
>Bruce
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:48:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy
In-Reply-To: <34C22C95.4604@eznet.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Brian: Thanks a lot!:) And thanks to everyone else that answered my
inquiry.:) I recommend the catalog of www.kerouac.com to everybody on this
list. I don't remember who advertised it on here. but I sent him/her my
address and I immediately received the most comprehensive, kick-ass catalog
of Beat! --Sara
At 11:24 AM 1/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Sara,
>There is a video tape that came out in 1995 titled "2 Films by Alfred
>Leslie". It has the 1959 film "Pull My Daisy"(29 minutes) and a 1964
>film "The Last Clean Shirt"(44 minutes). The Last Clean Shirt has a
>dialogue by Frank O'hara and is a gas. I picked up a copy at the Whitney
>Museum in NYC during their Beat exposition. At the time it cost about
>the same as the more commercial edition with just Pull My Daisy. The
>only problem with finding copies is that there is no info on the video
>tape or on the jacket as to who published the tape or where it can be
>published. Maybe someone out there knows Alfred Leslie or will be
>seeing him at a concert or poetry event and can ask if it is still
>available. Well worth the effort.
>Brian
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:55:28 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nirvana (there's a bug in the bassbin)
Reply to message from thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE of Sat, 17 Jan
>People still wear Kurt Cobain t-shirts in your high school? I kinda
>feel sorry for you. What about the Chemical Brothers, Aphex Twin,
>Carl Craig? Any of those? Kurt Cobain SHOULD NOT be worshipped.
>Nirvana should be remembered (THREE members) for their music; music
>that was relevant... years ago. Nowadays, what then (back in them days)
>was called 'Grunge' now is as dead as Kurt Cobain (he shot his head off)
>is. The truth is Cobain was a sad little loser who couldn't handle fame
>bla bla bla. He was also a drug-addict. K.C.-worshippers are
Would we say that Jack Kerouac was a "sad little loser" becuase he
couldn't handle his fame, either? Would we say that writing that was
called "Beat" is as dead as Jack Kerouac is? I can find a lot of parallels
between JK & KC. But then again, you can find parallels between anything
if you OPEN YOUR EYES.
Diane.
>short-sighted and dress accordingly.
>The only thing Cobain had in common with the beats, Jack Kerouac to be
>specific, was the sad way his life ended. And that's it. The beats had
>a 'way of life', 'love your life out', they MEANT something, Kurt Cobain
>didn't mean anything. His music did, sure, but now it sounds old-
>fashioned. And a poem he definitely was not (his lyrics are o.k.
>but that's it). Jack Kerouac was no poet either. That is: I've never
>read any (good) poem by him.
>
> L8R
> Thomas Van Moortel
>
>
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:58:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Subject: Re: FLAME WARNING!
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> if you cannot handle that..get OFF THE LIST!!!!!!!!!
You might want to take your own advice... I am on many lists and there is
not one that stays completly on topic.
-Bill
[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]
["Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and
[ murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit
[ suicide."
[ -- John Adams
[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:06:46 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
didn't any of you people out there feel a little bit threatened when the
Gulf War started??? Doesn't anyone have a sick feeling in the back of
their mind that this might all start again? And knowing the weapons that
are out there (the ones we know about & the ones we don't)--isn't anyone a
tad bit afraid that our world can end without warning? And if I remember
correctly, wasn't this fear, this uncertainty, one of the driving forces of
the Beat Movement??? The A-Bomb & all that nifty stuff? The end of WW II?
Anyone with me here? To those of you crying, "This isn't a Beat-Related
Topic!!"--what do you _want_ to talk about, then? Initiate something,
dammit! And people will respond. "If you build it, they will come--" oh,
wait, I'm getting off-beat, ain't I?
Yeah, yeah, whatever--
Di.
>
>Jesus fucking Christ, people... This list is so non-Beat 90% pf the time,
>it makes me fucking sick. Maybe 2 out of ten messages are worth a damn,
>the rest is drivel. Silly me, I stay on the list for those two out of ten
>posts. And Timothy, I don't think you have any right to fuck with Julian
>like this. HE HAS A POINT!!!! It's true! Most of the posts on this list
>are about as beat as Martha Stewart!!!!! Julian, e-mail me, and we can
>discuss the literature in depth, which is the reason that aI joined this
>damn list in the first place! Thank God David's back, Dave, I missed your
>insight!!!!!
>
>On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>> Attention Julian Ruck
>>
>> I believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
>> when george bush was preisident.
>>
>> The war was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
>> neighboring country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
>> historically their territory.
>>
>> A United Nations coalition, led by the US, then fought militarily to retake
>> Kuwait back from the Iraqi army who had overrun and occupied Kuwait.
>> Saddam Hussein was villified and criticized, sometimes called the punnish
>> So Damn Insane by those who didn't like him.
>>
>> One of the consequences of the Iraqi defeat was that a UN agreement that
>> Iraq would allow UN inspectoators in to their country and various plants to
>> inspect to make sure no weapons were being produced that violate UN
>> treaties.
>>
>> That is apparently the crux of the problem today in that Hussein does not
>> want to fufill his part of the UN agreement concerning the UN inspectors.
>>
>> So Julian, thanks for bringing this topic up and asking about it. I never
>> would have mentioned it or thought about it if you hadn't asked.
>>
>> I hope this answered all your questions and am glad to help you out, but I
>> think maybe you should stick more to discussing the beats when on the list.
>>
>> But hey whatever you want!!!
>>
>
>
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:42:22 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alan Harrington's "Secret Swinger"
Jym,
I read Harrington's Dr. Modesto about a month. It's worth reading but don't if
you are expecting a "Beat Novel." It's more a satire of 1950s values, pretty
well done at that. If thatinterests you, give it a whirl. Let me know what you
think.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:22:42 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-01-17 22:19:28 EST, you write:
<< I take it you haven't read any of his poems, then!!! You need to read
Mexico City Blues, Scattered Poems, Pomes All Sizes and Book of Blues
IMMEDIATELY. If you still believe that Jack Kerouac was not a good poet,
get help. --Sara
>>
Personally, I haven't read many Kerouac poems... San Francisco Blues and then
a few other ones gleaned from the net.... oh! and the one at the end of Big
Sur... And I wouldn't say he was "no poet" but I wasn't very impressed either.
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:41:50 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:
> On a beat-note, does anyone know if Ray Bradbury was at all connected to
> the beats? He was writing the very prophetic, anti-50's culture at the
> same time Howl was going down...
>
> -Greg
as much as i enjoy bradbury, i don't think you can connect him much with
the beats.
though he's best known for science fiction, his early work was
influenced by hp lovecraft, and there's a tenuous connection in that
lovecraft was a literary descendant of poe, thru guys like lord dunsanay
(sp?) and arthur machen, and the beats are descendants of poe thru
baudelaire and rimbaud. also bradbury's work is humanist, it's about
people in futuristic situations, with the emphasis on the human, not the
machine, and he was, i'm sure, an influence on harlan ellison (who wrote
a kerouac like first person teen gang book 'memos from purgatory' , and
later wrote for the LA free press) and i'm sure on vonnegut, who's been
discussed here recently.
bradbury wrote some fine existentialist kinda non SF stuff, too, i'm
thinking of a short story called 'i see you never' about the same kind
of informational lag and alienation from experience that's at the heart
of camus' the stranger, and another one about fashion photography in
mexico, about the abstraction of real lives into stereotyped
perceptions. again, bradbury was about the human in us all, not so much
about the technology.
arthur clark's 'childhood's end' and heinlien's 'stranger in a strange
land' are referenced by wolfe as being important parts of the pranksters
mythos, but i haven't seen bradbury so connected. (i haven't read those
two books, but i'm sure someone here has, it's my understanding that
clark and heinlien were more technological writers, they were more
interested than bradbury in making the science in their books workable
than he.
bradbury's a great stylist, with a love of language and it wouldn't
surprise me at all if he read and enjoyed kerouac and burroughs, but i
don't think he's really beat. he grew up in LA, a classmate of stop
action animator ray harryhausen, and they were both active as kids in
the LA science fiction fandom of the time. he was accepted by the older
guys in part because of his encyclopaedic memory. he knew the contents
of every major SF mag published.
you gotta remember, when he started hitting his stride in the late 1940s
there were some things you just couldn't write about in popular
magazines: sex, religion, racism, and science fiction was a format where
you could dress up the undiscussable in space suits and get away with
it.
i think there's a definate connection in readership. i know i'm not the
only guy on this list who grew up reading julie schwartz' comics like
mystery in space, flash and green lantern or the wonderful lee/kirby
fantastic four, hulk, x men, thor, etc, (or even the earlier EC comics
like weird fantasy) before graduating to science fiction, and then on to
real lit-oo-ra-choor.
kerouac and cassady, of course loved the shadow pulps and burroughs dug
the black mask hard boiled detectives
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 05:24:33 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble Question
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> Timothy K. Gallagher wrote:
>
> Kerouac wrote number three (on page three of SoD) as "The Supression of
> Suffering can be Acheived".
>
> How does that differ from "until now" and what it infers?
>
> (As a side note that may be more important than just a side, Lei
> Asher's
> Lit Kicks site has the 3rd as "3.Suffering can only cease if desire
> ceases
> " slightly different than Kerouac's.
>
> The True Buddha School [http://www.tbsn.org] calls it "Noble Truth of
> the Path that leads to the Extinction of Suffering")
Thanks for paraphrasing the original question and answers for those of us
who lost the messages. I would also say the "until now" is the most
important part of the verse and refers to what has just happened, the
coming of Christ, his teachings, death, resurrection. It also seems to
refer to the belief that with the first man, Adam, came the fall and the
beginning of suffering. Christ's sacrifice of himself through suffering
restored unity with God, thus ending suffering. I, however, don't read
this as meaning that human beings never suffer, or those that believe in
Christ never suffer. My interpretation is that Christ's teachings are a
path through suffering not that different from the "Noble Truth of the
Path that leads to the extinction of suffering." As the next verse of
Romans goes on to say, "...even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body." It seems
to me that some people interpret Christianity as "looking outward" and
Buddhism as "looking inward," which puts the two at odds. Both are about
a path or journey towards truth, towards a condition where dualities
don't exist. They both use different mythologies to arrive at the same
place. It seems to me that in both, becoming one with the source of
life, leads beyond suffering. I get the feeling in reading Kerouac that
in his search for meaning, he was constantly asking, 'What is the meaning
of existence? Why do people suffer?" but rather than looking within
using either the path of Catholicism or Buddhism, he thought the answer
would just be handed to him at some point.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:50:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: EGE DUNDAR <ege.dundar@TR.CGOCABLE.CA>
Subject: Kurt Cobain
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Mr Van Moortel,
Maybe it is true that Nirvana's music doesn't have the same impact on
people as it did a few years ago, but how can it be that a "meaningless
person" like Cobain can write meaningful music that (and you wrote this)
should be remembered. I personally find this pretty incoherent.
Ege Dundar
P.S. The reason why Nirvana doesn't have the same impact as before is
that a lot of the people who listened to it were just following the
"fashion" of mainstream music and didn't even know what the guy was talking
about. These people are now listening - pardon me, bragging to their
friends that they are listening - to "cool" music like Smash Mouth, Reel
Big Fish and other popular-for-a-week bands. Nirvana's music was honest,
subtle (most of the time) and witty. If Kerouac had started a band, I'm
sure his songs wouldn't be that far away from K.C.'s writings.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:03:15 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel <thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization: None
Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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EGE DUNDAR wrote:
>
> Mr Van Moortel,
> Maybe it is true that Nirvana's music doesn't have the same
impact on
> people as it did a few years ago, but how can it be that a "meaningless
> person" like Cobain can write meaningful music that (and you wrote this)
> should be remembered. I personally find this pretty incoherent.
> Ege Dundar
>
> P.S. The reason why Nirvana doesn't have the same impact as before is
> that a lot of the people who listened to it were just following the
> "fashion" of mainstream music and didn't even know what the guy was talking
> about. These people are now listening - pardon me, bragging to their
> friends that they are listening - to "cool" music like Smash Mouth, Reel
> Big Fish and other popular-for-a-week bands. Nirvana's music was honest,
> subtle (most of the time) and witty. If Kerouac had started a band, I'm
> sure his songs wouldn't be that far away from K.C.'s writings.
You can call me Thomas.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:48:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0e6a53ca319@[128.125.229.170]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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With the comments on the list about the Gulf War I wondered if anyone could
explain why a war was fought to restore Kuwait's independence, but nothing
was done to restore Tibet's independence.
Obviously there is the oil and an Iraq army that is technologicaly inferior
to us, but what else. Is it as flagrant a denial of human rights preducated
on the power of big oil as it apaears, or was Tibet Chinese territory in
the recent past, as Kuwait was part of Iraq until an English military
officer drew that historic "Line in the Sand."
Sure BEATS me.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:45:11 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: existentialism & beats
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Hi everybody, sorry for the delayed response on this beats/
existentialism thread, and my absence. I've been travelling --
glad to come back and see this list is as weird as ever.
About the connection between Beat lit and existentialist
philosophy, I think there is a strong one, but it's difficult
to state this cleanly because, unlike the Beat writers who
were a small and cohesive group of people that hung out
together, the so-called existentialist philosophers spanned
two centuries, various European countries, and virtually
every belief system.
But Soren Kierkegaard is usually considered the first
existentialist philosopher, and I've always seen Kierkegaard
and Kerouac as kindred spirits, especially in their
wranglings with religion. Both of them also seemed to
share a certain innocence and vulnerability in their
writings and in their life stories.
I also think that there's a branch of existentialism that's
very compatible with Buddhist thought. For instance
the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence" looks
like it's about Zen philosophy, but the actual philosophical
argument it presents is pure 100% textbook existentialism,
with bits and pieces of Zen thrown in for flavor. I'd
definitely say that this book represents a good example
of where Buddhism, existentialism and Beat writing
come together.
Sorry for the essay answer, I used to be a philosophy major
and I still miss it sometimes.
---------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
| |
| "Nothing is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |
| -- Joni Mitchell |
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:56:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980117220116.60562A-100000@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Sorry listers. I should have predicated this post with:
Because of the obvious Beatness of the Dali Lama and the seeming Beat
attitude of the people of Tibet I was wondering: Why was a war fought to
restore Kuwait's independence, but nothing done to restore Tibet's
independence.
Obviously there is the oil and an Iraq army that is technologicaly inferior
to ours, but what else? Is it as flagrant a denial of human rights
preducated on the power of big oil as it apaears, or was Tibet Chinese
territory in the recent past, as Kuwait was part of Iraq until an English
military officer drew that historic "Line in the Sand."
Was it a case of little religion vs big oil?
Sure BEATS me.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:18:22 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Zucchini4 wrote:
>
> Personally, I haven't read many Kerouac poems... San Francisco Blues and then
> a few other ones gleaned from the net.... oh! and the one at the end of Big
> Sur... And I wouldn't say he was "no poet" but I wasn't very impressed either.
>
> --Stephanie
Blasphemer!!!
Sorry, I let my instincts take over there...
Actually, I wasn't blown away by JK's poetry at first, but then I HEARD
them and I was completely blown away. His poems are meant for the ear,
so try reading them aloud, they're much better when they're heard.
I also find it curious that Felinghetti preferred JK's spontaneous
prose, but not so much his poetry. Perhaps the reason he didn't publish
more Kerouac was because Lawrence is more of a political poet, whereas
Kerouac was as apolitical as one could get. City Lights did publish
three JK books in the Pocket Poets series, so the respect for Kerouac is
there, but all three volumes were published posthumously.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:59:42 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Sorry listers. I should have predicated this post with:
>
>Because of the obvious Beatness of the Dali Lama and the seeming Beat
>attitude of the people of Tibet I was wondering: Why was a war fought to
>restore Kuwait's independence, but nothing done to restore Tibet's
>independence.
>
Well...
Here is something we should all remember or learn or be aware of.
In the 1950's the "evil CIA" was supporteding the dalai lama and the
people of Tibet (this went on even after the Dalai Lama escaped with the
help of the CIA until that paragon of virtue Jonhn F. Kennedy said no more
help to the Tibetans).
At the same time the writer of Moloch Moloch, our own Ginsy was trumpteting
and advocating the Chinese Communist line that the US should be freinds
with them and they should have their spot in the UN which was denied them
due to their actions in Tibet and in general throughout China and the
region.
Strange how it was Ginsberg who sided with the repressors of Tibet whereas
as the one's called evil by Ginsy and others were the only people trying to
help the Tibetans.
>Obviously there is the oil and an Iraq army that is technologicaly inferior
>to ours, but what else? Is it as flagrant a denial of human rights
>preducated on the power of big oil as it apaears, or was Tibet Chinese
>territory in the recent past, as Kuwait was part of Iraq until an English
>military officer drew that historic "Line in the Sand."
>
>Was it a case of little religion vs big oil?
>
>Sure BEATS me.
>
>j grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:54:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To my mind, there isn't much difference between good prose and good poetr=
y.=0ABoth do the same thing: create images you can feel. I'm moved by Buk=
owski,=0ARoethke, Ferlinghetti, Plath, Frost, Whitman, Shakespeare, e.e. =
cummings--all=0Afor different reasons, stylewise, but for the same end: t=
he pictures or=0Afeelings they create.=0A=0AMy first responses to Kerouac=
's poetry, which came in the 70's with Mexico=0ACity Blues, were that he =
should stick to prose. But later readings, as I got=0Aolder (and, I belie=
ve, gained a deeper understanding and appreciation of Life,=0Aincluding a=
ll its joys and sorrows) hit me like a ton of anything you want to=0Aname=
. Reading his stuff aloud with a bold voice (not like these stupid=0Aaffe=
ctations one hears in a variety of readings, which I loathe) makes them=
=0Acome alive even more. And it seems he always sticks in one phrase that=
is just=0Akiller, something that brings it all home, makes me wonder and=
wander off into=0Aa little vision.=0A=0AIt's only been lately I've been =
able to FEEL what a genius he had for poetry.=0AMaybe in time, that feeli=
ng will come to others who don't have the patience or=0Aunderstanding for=
him and his life.=0A=0ANow that I'm getting to be "his age," meaning, th=
e age when he died, I look=0Aback at things he wrote years earlier and th=
ink of my own mortality, and his.=0AThis is the poem that's been haunting=
me lately:=0A=0ASomeday you'll be lying=0Athere in a nice trance=0Aand s=
uddenly a hot=0Asoapy brush will be =0Aapplied to your face=0A=97It'll be=
unwelcome=0A=97someday the=0Aundertaker will shave you=0A=0ANuff said.=
=0AMD=0A
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 18:39:18 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Discuss this one hour from now on Kerochat!
The topic tonight is Visions of Cody but that is basically a starting
point....VOC is a poem, "only pages long"...discuss the merits of this. Go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Click on the link for The Kerouac Quarterly Chat Room
It will take you to Talk Cit, put in your nickname, (we suggest loading in
the "lite" version, and it will be all set. Just type inand hit Enter.
or, use your IRC, go to
www.talkcity.com
6667
#Kerochat See ya there! Paul....
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:15:06 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel <thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization: None
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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IDDHI wrote:
>
> It's only been lately I've been able to FEEL what a genius he had for >
poetry.
> Maybe in time, that feeling will come to others who don't have the > patience
or understanding for him and his life.
I hope, that in time, when I will have the patience and understanding,
I won't be sounding as smug as you are.
Now you see me, Now you don't. It's been grand folks.
Thomas Van Moortel
(down & out with
only one solution)
Listen: there's a hell of a good universe next door, let's go!
- e. e. Cummings
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 18:34:02 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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In a message dated 18-Jan-98 3:26:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be writes:
<< Now you see me, Now you don't. It's been grand folks. >>
I wasn't making any condemnation of you or anyone Thomas, but remembering how
I was when I first read MCB and had no patience and understanding. But
interestingly enough, lack of patience and understanding on your part with my
point of view seems to be drawing a big underline under it.
Maybe if you try to understand what I was saying (about myself) and have a
little patience (you wasted no time in firing off that response), you won't
have to go away mad.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:00:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
In-Reply-To: <v03110702b0e8180f0d91@[156.46.222.45]>
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At 03:48 PM 1/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>With the comments on the list about the Gulf War I wondered if anyone could
>explain why a war was fought to restore Kuwait's independence, but nothing
>was done to restore Tibet's independence.
>
>Obviously there is the oil and an Iraq army that is technologicaly inferior
>to us, but what else. Is it as flagrant a denial of human rights preducated
>on the power of big oil as it apaears, or was Tibet Chinese territory in
>the recent past, as Kuwait was part of Iraq until an English military
>officer drew that historic "Line in the Sand."
>
>Sure BEATS me.
>
>j grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>
>
Everytime I see another movie about Tibet, and I've seen two and am
threatened by the new Scorcese, I get angry. Its cold war jive to be
concerned about the Dalai Lama. Tibet is more primitive and backward
than China was when it took them over in 1950. The only reason this
primitive monarch is lionized here, is so that we can get in a jab
at that old dabil communism, and tyranny. But the Dalai Lama would
be running a tyranny of his own, if he was still in charge in Tibet.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:04:50 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
to my mind Kerouac captured the beauty and music of 20th century American
English like no one before or sense. the images, tone, rhythm, alliteration
are amazing. i can understand someone not liking his poetry, but i can't
understand someone saying he's no poet. most of his prose has a great deal
of poetic language use.
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
To my mind, there isn't much difference between good prose and good poetry.
Both do the same thing: create images you can feel. I'm moved by Bukowski,
Roethke, Ferlinghetti, Plath, Frost, Whitman, Shakespeare, e.e.
cummings--all
for different reasons, stylewise, but for the same end: the pictures or
feelings they create.
My first responses to Kerouac's poetry, which came in the 70's with Mexico
City Blues, were that he should stick to prose. But later readings, as I got
older (and, I believe, gained a deeper understanding and appreciation of
Life,
including all its joys and sorrows) hit me like a ton of anything you want
to
name. Reading his stuff aloud with a bold voice (not like these stupid
affectations one hears in a variety of readings, which I loathe) makes them
come alive even more. And it seems he always sticks in one phrase that is
just
killer, something that brings it all home, makes me wonder and wander off
into
a little vision.
It's only been lately I've been able to FEEL what a genius he had for
poetry.
Maybe in time, that feeling will come to others who don't have the patience
or
understanding for him and his life.
Now that I'm getting to be "his age," meaning, the age when he died, I look
back at things he wrote years earlier and think of my own mortality, and
his.
This is the poem that's been haunting me lately:
Someday you'll be lying
there in a nice trance
and suddenly a hot
soapy brush will be
applied to your face
It'll be unwelcome
someday the
undertaker will shave you
Nuff said.
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:26:28 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <34C28CFA.24E@skynet.be>
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Jeez, guy, I and several others were only disagreeing with your opinion!
No need to take your ball and go home! The whole point of a listserve is
to trade ideas, agree, disagree, learn from each other... oh, wait,
excuse me, am I being smug? --Sara
> I hope, that in time, when I will have the patience and understanding,
> I won't be sounding as smug as you are.
>
> Now you see me, Now you don't. It's been grand folks.
>
> Thomas Van Moortel
> (down & out with
> only one solution)
>
> Listen: there's a hell of a good universe next door, let's go!
> - e. e. Cummings
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:30:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <094ee0007001318UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>
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Well said!!! I totally agree. Kerouac took a language that so many across
the world do not regard as beautiful and showed everyone just how
beautiful it can be. --Sara
On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, sherri wrote:
> to my mind Kerouac captured the beauty and music of 20th century American
> English like no one before or sense. the images, tone, rhythm, alliteration
> are amazing. i can understand someone not liking his poetry, but i can't
> understand someone saying he's no poet. most of his prose has a great deal
> of poetic language use.
>
> ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:49:17 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
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I'm not an expert, but it is well known that the CIA provided supplies (arms,
other) to Tibetan gurallas under the Eisenhower administration, into the
Kennedy administration. The Dali Lama fled Tibet in 1959. The program was
stopped in the early sixties by Kennedy, who heeded advice from John Kenneth
Galbrath (the economist) who was ambassador to India, under Kennedy.
It would have been utterly impossible for the US to attempt any sort of formal
military assistance to Tibet - not that the US was that committed to Tibet
anyway.
I'm second to none in admiration of the Dalai Lama and the justice of his
cause. However, it would not have been realistic for the US to have
intervened militarily in Tibet. There is scarcely another place on earth
where it would have been more impractical for the US to fight. China's
takeover of Tibet was, and is, an example of naked agression and genocide.
Nonviolence is the path toward a free Tibet.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 20:05:45 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
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Mike Rice would do well to read a little bit of the Dalai Llama's writings.
He is in the tradition of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. The Nobel Peace
Prize was awarded to the Dalai Lama because of his nonviolence, not because of
anything to do with the cold war.
Genocide is wrong. That is exactly the policy, the evil, of what the Chinese
have done to the people of Tibet. Hitler was a great "modernizer" too but he
does not get a lot of credit with the people who died in the death camps.
Wake up - there were wrongs done on both sides of the cold war.
As for Allen Ginsberg - it is also a matter of fact that he was kicked out of
both communist Cuba and communist Czechoslovakia due to his contacts with
human rights advocates. And when did he ever write on behalf of the "Chinese
line" - only in your imagination?
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:15:55 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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TKQ wrote:
>
> Discuss this one hour from now on Kerochat!
> The topic tonight is Visions of Cody but that is basically a starting
> point....VOC is a poem, "only pages long"...discuss the merits of this. Go to:
>
> http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
> Click on the link for The Kerouac Quarterly Chat Room
> It will take you to Talk Cit, put in your nickname, (we suggest loading in
> the "lite" version, and it will be all set. Just type inand hit Enter.
>
> or, use your IRC, go to
>
> www.talkcity.com
> 6667
> #Kerochat See ya there! Paul....
> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
looking forward to seeing others at this Kerochat thang now or sooner.
david rhaesa (race23)
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:09:54 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: existentialism & beats
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Levi Asher wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, sorry for the delayed response on this beats/
> existentialism thread, and my absence. I've been travelling --
> glad to come back and see this list is as weird as ever.
>
> About the connection between Beat lit and existentialist
> philosophy, I think there is a strong one, but it's difficult
> to state this cleanly because, unlike the Beat writers who
> were a small and cohesive group of people that hung out
> together, the so-called existentialist philosophers spanned
> two centuries, various European countries, and virtually
> every belief system.
i think that Rinaldo's list of Beats makes the comparison a bit easier
than the more narrow view suggested on entry to this listserve. Most
folks in both camps didn't care for the label.
>
> But Soren Kierkegaard is usually considered the first
> existentialist philosopher, and I've always seen Kierkegaard
> and Kerouac as kindred spirits, especially in their
> wranglings with religion.
SK is usually seen as a first but i've always found Socrates to be quite
the existentialist and chronologically he comes before SK. (I got a
copy of SK's The Concept of Dread awhile back and wonder if anyone knows
whether it is worth cracking)
Both of them also seemed to
> share a certain innocence and vulnerability in their
> writings and in their life stories.
yes.
>
> I also think that there's a branch of existentialism that's
> very compatible with Buddhist thought.
Definitely. William Barrett reports a conversation in which Heidegger
is reading Suzuki and MH says "if i understand this, it is what i've
been trying to say in all my writings". Certainly MH is in a category
which requires understanding philosophy poetically.
For instance
> the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence" looks
> like it's about Zen philosophy, but the actual philosophical
> argument it presents is pure 100% textbook existentialism,
> with bits and pieces of Zen thrown in for flavor.
by my take there is very little Zen in the book and RP is explicit that
the title is just for show. My favorite thing about the book is a
different strand seems to pop out each time i read it.
I'd
> definitely say that this book represents a good example
> of where Buddhism, existentialism and Beat writing
> come together.
it was my favorite book for a long time. i still go back to it for
insights from time to time. some of my early crackups parallel RP's
only in a Toyota <grin>
>
> Sorry for the essay answer, I used to be a philosophy major
> and I still miss it sometimes.
in the words of Oliver Twist "more please". Levi you can fill up the
bandwidth anytime IMHO.
david rhaesa (race)
salina, Kansas
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
> | |
> | Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
> | (the beat literature web site) |
> | |
> | "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
> | (a real book, like on paper) |
> | also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
> | |
> | *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
> | |
> | "Nothing is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |
> | -- Joni Mitchell |
> ---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:17:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
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Leon Tabory wrote:
>
> Ever thought of writing "In a Nutshell" books? Wonderful job!
i lost the original on this.
>
> leon
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 11:03 AM
> Subject: Re: Existentialism...
>
> >The cardinal doctrine of existentialism according to Sartre is "existence
> >precedes essence;" we are born into the world a zero and create our own
> >being from there. It presupposes absolute freedom. Nothing is ordained.
> >Infinite creative possibilities.
but the important element it seems to me is the individual
responsibility involved in choice.
Camus and Sartre are good places to go
> >for prose realization of the philosophy.
I agree. Just started Camus' Exile and the Kingdom and Sartre's Sartre
By Himself since the holidays. The autobiographicalish interviews of
the latter are very interesting. Living in contradiction seems an
important theme. Perhaps Jack never found a comfort level in that state
of being/becoming.
It's less explicit in Kerouac
> >because he's so subjective but the Nietzchean uberman Dean Moriarty pushes
> >toward the idea.
i've never even thought of reading Dean as uberman. Hmm. a different
spin indeed.
The obstacle to all of this is culture of course and
> >according to Burroughs language itself, because of it, consciousness is
> >prerecorded.
In this sense does language in the form of pre-recording precede both
existence and essence?
Therefore existentialism is a ruse performed by deterministic
> >language which he tried to undermine via cutups, etc.
Do his experiments flirt with undermining the notion that essence
follows existence?
> >
> >That's an oversimplified nutshell of the issues.
> >
> >Preston
> >
> >>At 07:08 AM 1/5/88 -0600, you wrote:
> >>>Does anyone know anything about existentialism and it's importance in
> >>>the Beat movement and culture? If so, please explain and help me out
> >>>here. Thanks!
> >>>
> >>>*jodie*
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>I don't remember where I read it (it was a blurb), William Burroughs
> called
> >>Kerouac America's greatest existentialist writer.
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:29:19 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
Content-Type: text/plain
I'll just say that I will continue to boycott the chinese (it isn't
easy, either), fear the cia, hold immense respect for Ginsberg, and
admire the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan people..
I will also continue to dislike the Iraqi's, all though I will disagree
with any hostile actions against them... there are better ways to deal
with conflict. And who knows how much of what I am being "informed"
about the situation in the Middle East is propoganda anyway.
-Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>Well...
>
>Here is something we should all remember or learn or be aware of.
>
>In the 1950's the "evil CIA" was supporteding the dalai lama and the
>people of Tibet (this went on even after the Dalai Lama escaped with
the
>help of the CIA until that paragon of virtue Jonhn F. Kennedy said no
more
>help to the Tibetans).
>
>At the same time the writer of Moloch Moloch, our own Ginsy was
trumpteting
>and advocating the Chinese Communist line that the US should be freinds
>with them and they should have their spot in the UN which was denied
them
>due to their actions in Tibet and in general throughout China and the
>region.
>
>Strange how it was Ginsberg who sided with the repressors of Tibet
whereas
>as the one's called evil by Ginsy and others were the only people
trying to
>help the Tibetans.
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:28:27 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble Question
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Diane Carter wrote:
>
> > Timothy K. Gallagher wrote:
> >
> > Kerouac wrote number three (on page three of SoD) as "The Supression of
> > Suffering can be Acheived".
> >
> > How does that differ from "until now" and what it infers?
> >
> > (As a side note that may be more important than just a side, Lei
> > Asher's
> > Lit Kicks site has the 3rd as "3.Suffering can only cease if desire
> > ceases
> > " slightly different than Kerouac's.
> >
> > The True Buddha School [http://www.tbsn.org] calls it "Noble Truth of
> > the Path that leads to the Extinction of Suffering")
>
> Thanks for paraphrasing the original question and answers for those of us
> who lost the messages. I would also say the "until now" is the most
> important part of the verse and refers to what has just happened, the
> coming of Christ, his teachings, death, resurrection. It also seems to
> refer to the belief that with the first man, Adam, came the fall and the
> beginning of suffering. Christ's sacrifice of himself through suffering
> restored unity with God, thus ending suffering. I, however, don't read
> this as meaning that human beings never suffer, or those that believe in
> Christ never suffer. My interpretation is that Christ's teachings are a
> path through suffering not that different from the "Noble Truth of the
> Path that leads to the extinction of suffering." As the next verse of
> Romans goes on to say, "...even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
> waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body." It seems
> to me that some people interpret Christianity as "looking outward" and
> Buddhism as "looking inward," which puts the two at odds. Both are about
> a path or journey towards truth, towards a condition where dualities
> don't exist. They both use different mythologies to arrive at the same
> place. It seems to me that in both, becoming one with the source of
> life, leads beyond suffering. I get the feeling in reading Kerouac that
> in his search for meaning, he was constantly asking, 'What is the meaning
> of existence? Why do people suffer?" but rather than looking within
> using either the path of Catholicism or Buddhism, he thought the answer
> would just be handed to him at some point.
> DC
"Until Now" is a crucial portion of the quotation from Paul's Letter to
the Romans. It creates the sense of time that is reflected in the
christian notions (according to Paul) of the future in light of grace.
Time functions historically and spiritually and suffering exists within
historical time from Genesis 3 (or other myths of the beginnings) to the
present -- but do not necessarily extend into the future. The suffering
of the spirit from a fall from grace is replaced (according to Paul) by
the Last Days and so the timeline for spirit resides in grace which
would be the point before the fall into suffering historical time to
include the Now of Until Now in Grace. The future is not relevant.
This notion of temporality is difficult for many Westerners to grasp -
we are so heavily couched in historical chronology.
The Until Now also reflects something of the notion of expectancy and
hope within notions of Grace. In the realms of the physical world there
is a huge gap between expectancy and hope - and riots in the 60s are a
reflection of these differences. But in the realm of grace --
functioning outside historical time and more inside of eternity itself
these notions of expectancy and hope of relief from suffering melt
together in the Now of Paul's commentary.
sorry for the theology lecture, i used to be a preacher's kid. <grin>
david rhaesa (race)
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:27:42 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
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kurt wrote a song about the 'dharma bums' called 'beans' beans beans
beans/jackie ate some beans/in the woods naked and he was happy drinking wine
or somthing like that. he also started listening to ledbelly after reading
somthing where burroughs said people should forget rock and roll and listen
to ledbelly and after a show in san fransico chris novoselic went to
city lights to buy some beat books and that's all i know about that i'm
reading the 'come as you are' book story and that's what it said
chad
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 02:36:13 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: existentialism & beats
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"We must love life more than the meaning of it."
Alyosha in _The Brothers Karamazov_ - Fyodor Dostoevsky
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:25:56 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
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i feel competent to say something here. why should you not like the
iraqi's? how many of them do you know?
i come from serbia. how many good things have you heard about serbs? not
many, i am sure. and i never noticed that either me or my friends are
savages we are thought to be. we don't slaughter innocent people, not
where i live at least...
so:
And who knows how much of what I am being "informed"
> about the situation in the Middle East is propoganda anyway.
this sentence is probably true and you should aways keep in mind that
most of what the media tell you is pure brainwashing. we have a saying
here:
turn off your televisions, turn on your heads.
ksenija
>
> -Greg
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> * Ginsberg etc. *
> * http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
> * Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
> >Well...
> >
> >Here is something we should all remember or learn or be aware of.
> >
> >In the 1950's the "evil CIA" was supporteding the dalai lama and the
> >people of Tibet (this went on even after the Dalai Lama escaped with
> the
> >help of the CIA until that paragon of virtue Jonhn F. Kennedy said no
> more
> >help to the Tibetans).
> >
> >At the same time the writer of Moloch Moloch, our own Ginsy was
> trumpteting
> >and advocating the Chinese Communist line that the US should be freinds
> >with them and they should have their spot in the UN which was denied
> them
> >due to their actions in Tibet and in general throughout China and the
> >region.
> >
> >Strange how it was Ginsberg who sided with the repressors of Tibet
> whereas
> >as the one's called evil by Ginsy and others were the only people
> trying to
> >help the Tibetans.
> >
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 03:57:39 -0600
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From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.980115121858.11704B-100000@landen.math.uwaterloo.ca>
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On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
> > On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> > > In all my reading of Burroughs, I've never run across anything that
> > > made me think, "Gee, that sounds just like Wittgenstein." So apart
> > > from the explicit reference in the intro to Naked Lunch, I don't think
> > > Burroughs ever had much to say about W.
>
> There is an explicit reference that links (not attributes) Wittgenstein to
> Burroughs' idea of the pre-recorded universe in The Ticket that Exploded:
>
> "Wittgenstein said: 'No proposition can contain itself as an argument' =
> The only thing _not_ prerecorded in a prerecorded universe is the
> prerecording itself which is to say _any_ recording that contains a random
> factor" (TTE 166).
>
> To disagree with Jeff above, the influence of Wittgenstein on Burroughs'
> notion of the prerecorded universe makes Wittgenstein instrumental in
> Burroughs' philosophy and fiction.
Probably WSB was referring to these passages from the Tractatus:
3.331 From this observation we turn to Russell's 'theory of
types'. It can be seen that Russell must be wrong, because
he had to mention the meaning of signs when establishing
the rules for them.
3.332 No proposition can make a statement about itself, because a
propositional sign cannot be contained in itself (that is
the whole 'theory of types').
So, first of all, this idea of a proposition not being able to make a
statement about itself is not even Wittgenstein's, but Bertrand
Russell's, and was meant to rule out certain kinds of logical
paradoxes.
And secondly, it's clear that Wittgenstein was not satisfied with
Russell's solution, and developed his own, somewhat different
formulation. (see the next paragraphs in the Tractatus)
So here is what I think happened: WSB simply used this phrase as a
point of departure for his own thoughts. I do this a lot myself;
reading something, a sentence or turn of phrase sends me off on a long
train of thought that ends up having little or nothing to do with the
original context of whatever I was reading. Wittgenstein's writing
here was nothing more than an initial impetus for WSB, as far as I
can tell. It's going too far to say that this idea was "instrumental"
or an "influence". And of course the whole "film" and "recording"
terminology (as well as the reference to "random factors") are
entirely WSB's own.
> On Language Games:
>
> Michael went on to write:
>
> > Wittgenstein may have been more of an influence, however, in the idea
> > of language-games. Perhaps Burroughs was a language-gamester akin to
> > the "trickster guru" Alan Watts wrote about.
>
> I don't agree with this. When cutting word lines and control lines,
> Burroughs was not playing games. Although his use of parodic and satiric
> modes may cast him in the role of trickster for a time, his fight for a
> non-linguistic freedom was anything but a game.
>
> Tim Murphy's new book posits that "[Burroughs' work] emerges from the
> liminal space of literature with a 'plan of living' rather than an
> endlessly deferred 'participation in language games' or an empty 'love for
> the world through language' a la John Barth." He makes a pretty convincing
> argument too, and I'd refer you to him for the rest of it.
>
> Burroughs was always trying to _do_ something, whether it was cutting
> control lines, creating retroactive utopias, or getting into space. He was
> never just a language-gamester.
Everyone here seems to operating under a misapprehension of what
Wittgenstein means by a "language game". The phrase is meant to
indicate an analogy between language and games in the following way:
"There is no characteristic common to everything we call games....
instead we find a complicated network of similarities and
relationships overlapping and crisscrossing....This feature of 'game'
is one which Wittgenstein believed is shared with language, and this
made it particularly appropriate to call particular mini-languages
'language-games'. There were others. Most importantly, even though not
all games have rules, the function of rules in many games has
similarities with the function of rules in language. Language-games,
like games, need have no external goal; they can be autonomous
activities. But the comparison of language to a game was not meant to
suggest that language was a pastime, or something trivial: on the
contrary, it was meant to bring out the connection between the
speaking of language and non-linguistic activites. Indeed the speaking
of language is part of a communal activity, a way of living im society
which W. calls a 'form of life'. It is thru sharing in the playing of
language-games that language is connected with our life."
(from Anthony Kenny, _Wittgenstein_, p163)
So *any* use of language is a language-game. A language-game is not a
trivial use of language, as opposed to some serious purpose. Whether
you're playing the same language-game as someone else depends on what
rules you are following, what goals you have in mind, whether you
share certain sorts of training in how to use the language and a
shared history of its use (i.e. a form of life). Of course it's
possible to switch from one language-game to another, and this is no
doubt what WSB was trying to do: to shift us from a language-game in
which language functions as an instrument of control to another game
in which it does not.
I think this is probably the most that can be said about WSB from a
Wittgensteinian perspective. So I stand by my original claim that
there's really not much to be gained from comparing Wittgenstein &
WSB or attempting to establish some sort of influence.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 04:21:16 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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*sigh*...
please....
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 04:25:12 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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i will in fact e-mail you sara...
its pretty bad when you have to start a "background" list because the
foreground one can't stay on topic...
-julian
ps...to keep this post beat related...
i was curious as to whether or not kerouac approved of "alternate"
sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and "queer"
more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
meant to be derogatory or not...
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 04:29:11 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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A means to an end my friend...means to an end...
><LURK MODE OFF>
><SMILE>
>Just a thought. . . the continuous discussion of what should or
shouldn't
>be discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say
shouldn't
>be posted. . .
><GRIN>
><CHUCKLE>
>
>Bruce
>
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 04:30:33 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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i cannot believe this is actually a thread...
>> when george bush was preisident.
>>
>> The war was started when
>
>i was walking up the backstairways of Centennial Hall at Augustana
>College. i'd been following the news fairly carefully as my big
brother
>was stationed in the desert.
>
>so the news of actual warfare as opposed to suntanning lessons struck
me
>harshly. i can't say i really knew where i was for some moments. then
>a room of undergraduate debaters was staring at me ... wondering what
>next. a practice debate was scheduled.
>
>i didn't think twice - go on as planned. i couldn't have stood to sit
>alone worrying about my brother on that first night. work was a decent
>means to avoid the selfish and sentimental concerns i had for one
>soldier amidst the many fighting on both sides of whatever the cause
>was.
>
>dbr
>
>
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:05:24 EST
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From: Ferlingh2 <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Biblio
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Dear Bill, Judy said that you spoke at New Orleans and knew of an MLA biblio
award upcoming. If you have an address I should write to I'd appreciate it.
Thanks. I haven't checked my email in over a week and it will take me a long
while to get through it today, I see. Hope I haven't missed anything
important. Bill Morgan
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:24:01 -0400
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From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
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>Leon Tabory wrote:
>>
>> Ever thought of writing "In a Nutshell" books? Wonderful job!
>
>i lost the original on this.
>>
>> leon
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
>> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>> Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 11:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: Existentialism...
>>
>> >The cardinal doctrine of existentialism according to Sartre is "existence
>> >precedes essence;" we are born into the world a zero and create our own
>> >being from there. It presupposes absolute freedom. Nothing is ordained.
>> >Infinite creative possibilities.
>
>but the important element it seems to me is the individual
>responsibility involved in choice.
Yes, absolute freedom's price is absolute responsibility; the old cliche
freedom isn't cheap.
>Camus and Sartre are good places to go
>> >for prose realization of the philosophy.
>
>I agree. Just started Camus' Exile and the Kingdom and Sartre's Sartre
>By Himself since the holidays. The autobiographicalish interviews of
>the latter are very interesting. Living in contradiction seems an
>important theme. Perhaps Jack never found a comfort level in that state
>of being/becoming.
That's helpful understanding. It seems to me that contradictions
implicit to the writer -- the private inner life vs the public demands --
were for Jack irreconcilable; he could never make effective compromises
perhaps because he could not forgive himself for making them.
>It's less explicit in Kerouac
>> >because he's so subjective but the Nietzchean uberman Dean Moriarty pushes
>> >toward the idea.
>
>i've never even thought of reading Dean as uberman. Hmm. a different
>spin indeed.
According to Nicosia, I think, but it may be in OTR, uberman was Jack's
first thought when Neil answered the door naked.
>The obstacle to all of this is culture of course and
>> >according to Burroughs language itself, because of it, consciousness is
>> >prerecorded.
>
>In this sense does language in the form of pre-recording precede both
>existence and essence?
To the extent that language was in place before you or I were born, yes.
But more than that, once we are given existence we do not choose language;
it chooses us.
>Therefore existentialism is a ruse performed by deterministic
>> >language which he tried to undermine via cutups, etc.
>
>Do his experiments flirt with undermining the notion that essence
>follows existence?
It seems to me that Burroughs along with Bob Kaufman through his vow of
silence -- perhaps the greatest refusal, the purist rebellion, even if
futile -- were trying to realize an essence to their lives rather than
undermine the principle.
Enjoyed the comments,
Preston
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:00:16 -0500
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From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Many people have pondered this... I think he was just using the words as
words. I don't think Kerouac was willing to censor himself in any way, and
would use whatever words he pleased. He was very good friends with
Ginsberg, who was openly gay, and there are rumors that he and Neal
Cassady had a "thing" going at one point... So I think he was just using
the words for the sound, etc., not as derogatory terms.
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
> i will in fact e-mail you sara...
> its pretty bad when you have to start a "background" list because the
> foreground one can't stay on topic...
> -julian
>
> ps...to keep this post beat related...
> i was curious as to whether or not kerouac approved of "alternate"
> sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and "queer"
> more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
> meant to be derogatory or not...
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:12:17 PST
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
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>i feel competent to say something here. why should you not like the
>iraqi's? how many of them do you know?
I must admit my complete blunder on that one. I absolutely should not
have said that I dislike the Iraqis, I dislike Saddam Hussein because of
the way he has treated his people and because of his failure to uphold
his end of the bargain with the UN.
> And who knows how much of what I am being "informed"
>> about the situation in the Middle East is propoganda anyway.
What made me say that is having just seen the new movie about the Dalai
Lama, 'Kundun', I remember scenes of them sitting by radios listening to
Chinese propoganda/radio broadcasts with the announcer telling the
listeners how the Tibetan people were joyously welcoming the People's
Liberation Army. How are we to know that the situation in the Gulf is
any different?
>this sentence is probably true and you should aways keep in mind that
>most of what the media tell you is pure brainwashing. we have a saying
>here:
>
>turn off your televisions, turn on your heads.
>
>ksenija
>>
So, thank you and my apologies for any misinterpretation of what I said.
-Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:15:50 PST
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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> ps...to keep this post beat related...
> i was curious as to whether or not kerouac approved of "alternate"
>sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and "queer"
>more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
>meant to be derogatory or not...
>
I believe that toward the end, during the sixties, Ginsberg and Kerouac
often battled over homosexuality. I don't want to say anymore, because
what I remember of that is very faint and I don't want to say anything
which isn't true.
-Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:16:42 -0500
Reply-To: cmdumond@ehc.edu
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From: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>
Subject: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble Question
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Howdy-Ho!
> One of the responses said that the difference was in the "until now".
>
That would be me.
> I appreciate that. With that in mind then, what is the difference between
> "until now" of Romans and the third noble truth that says suffering can be
> overcome?
There are several differences. The first and probably most significant
is that Christian faith claims that THROUGH the final sacrifice of
Jesus, mankind is saved from suffering. Buddhist philosophy emphasizes
a more personal absolution of suffering through a personal quest of the
absolution of all the goodies of being a human being... lust, greed,
etc.
Chris
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:20:59 PST
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: bitch bitch bitch
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Julian:
To be perfectly frank, your complaining about off-topicness is getting
downright annoying. The rest of us are trying to carry on discussions
and it's really irritating to stumble across four posts in succession
from you all about how our threads aren't worth the time it takes to
write them...
I was disenheartened at first when I saw how wide-ranging the topics
are, but have since learned how to take advantage of that range and get
something out of it.
So, just drop it and I'm sure we'll be able to get back on topic once we
can quit worrying about whether we are or not.
Thank you,
Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:30:31 +0100
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From: Nicolai Pharao <nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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There is an interview with Jack Kerouac on a 3 CD box set called the Beat
Generation. It is quite funny. The interviewer obviously doesn't have much of an
idea of what 'beat' is (referring to the Dharma Bums as 'The Drama Bums' - he
thought it was a book about theatre critics), and Kerouac is just being friendly
answering the questions in a very straightforward manner. On the subject of
homosexuality he seems almost disinterested but adds that there have been many
great homosexuals and says (quote):
JK: I could name you names.
Interviewer: Really? Who?!
JK: Socrates...Julius Caesar...
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:44:33 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
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From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Thread Bear
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I am deeply interested in the discussion of what ought or ought not be
discussed on this list. Unfortunately, I am unable to discuss it. At
least not on the list. At this time. Nonetheless, any discussion as to
whether non-beat messages should be posted or sent to me privately is
very important to me. And, in my opinion, warrant extended public
discourse. Whether or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
another topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
those who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
interested in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
pertaining to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
the relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
(Albeit, beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.
And I think Jack Kerouac would have agreed with me.
At this time I think it's important to point out that Mortimer Adler is
NOT beat, and all but says so in his 1970 book, _The Time of Our Lives_
(newly reprinted in paperback). This is, as far as I know, the only
mention of the Beats in any of Dr. Adler's 57 books. (Dr. Adler turned
95 last month, so let's all wish him a happy birthday - OK, now,
everybody: HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MORT!!) If anyone is interested in discussing
the _fact_ that Dr. Adler is NOT beat, you may e-mail me privately,
although since we are coming perilously close to beat-related topic,
your private message to me may become public at anytime. E-mail me if
you wish to discuss this. If you feel that it doesn't warrant
discussion, you may wish to start your own thread. Or your own list.
Thread.
Now, we all know that Kerouac puked in the elevator on his way up to the
studio to appear on Wm. F. Buckley's _Firing Line_, and that Ginsberg
gave Buckley the Evil Eye on live TV when Buckley called Allen
_politically naive_. But did you know that the person who appeared as a
guest on _Firing Line_ more than any other individual was Mortimer
Adler? Yes! It's true! If this isn't beat-related, I don't know what is.
Here are some topics I'd like to see discussed:
- William S. Burroughs thought Buddhism was stupid.
- Jack Kerouac aced Mark Van Doren's Shakespeare class at Columbia, and
Van Doren was, apart from being a woefully academic poet, a close friend
and associate of Mortimer Adler, as well as the father of Charles Van
Doren of _Quiz Show_ infamy.
- Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
- Mortimer Adler called Zen _an aberration_ on live radio.
- When, after an LSD experience, Jack Kerouac wrote Timothy Leary to
express his thoughts regarding the drug, he closed the letter with
_Touch football sometime?_.
- In that TV commercial advertising his periodical, _The National
Review_, Wm. F. Buckley talks to the camera while behind him there is a
1st edition set of Britannica's Great Books of the Western World, edited
by Mortimer Adler. There's also a set behind the president/client on the
Hair Club For Men commercial. Any others?
I won't discuss this any furthur.
-JOHN HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:19:05 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
> I am deeply interested in the discussion of what ought or ought not be
> discussed on this list. Any others?
>
> I won't discuss this any furthur.
>
> -JOHN HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
i'm dying. happy birthday mort! What did Jack write for his
Shakespeare class from Mort's friend. Don't forget another Mort was
beat-related biologically to WSB!!!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:28:52 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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re: kerouac's use of the word queer, etc
gee i hope we're not going to be too politically correct here. kerouac
wrote in common language, and used the same language as ginsberg
maybe in the future the literature council will ammend all offending
language to a more pleasing: 'i was talking to another seeker on the
spiritual path who, tho a masculine male, enjoyed sucking dicks" and
those pesky junkies will be 'chemically dependant victims of society'
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:20:52 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: "Fag" & "Queer" (was Re: Anniversary of Gulf War)
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Julian Ruck wrote:
>
> ps...to keep this post beat related...
> i was curious as to whether or not kerouac approved of "alternate"
> sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and "queer"
> more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
> meant to be derogatory or not...
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
you'll find the distinction between "fag" and "queer" in WSB's writings
as well if memory serves me.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:21:58 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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Julian Ruck wrote:
>
> A means to an end my friend...means to an end...
>
> ><LURK MODE OFF>
> ><SMILE>
> >Just a thought. . . the continuous discussion of what should or
> shouldn't
> >be discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say
> shouldn't
> >be posted. . .
> ><GRIN>
> ><CHUCKLE>
> >
> >Bruce
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
beware all -- close reading shows distinctly that Bruce's Lurk Mode is
still OFF.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:23:05 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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Julian Ruck wrote:
>
> i cannot believe this is actually a thread...
>
i can't believe you can type <grin>
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:38:06 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Sara Feustle wrote:
<snip> and there are rumors that he <kerouac> and Neal
> Cassady had a "thing" going at one point...
ginsberg said the weakness of kerouac and cassady's friendship was that
they could never put down their macho roles and have sex, and thus show
one another how they really felt. if they'd had sex it would've been
common knowledge. i would like to see one person who knew either one of
them first hand make this statement.
though they both had sex with men, they were both straight at heart and
their primary attraction was to women
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:52:33 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
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there are reasons why saddam hussien (and elsewhere momar kadaffi) are
still in power, though i can't tell you why, they're not the kinda guys
i would place faith in, but then neither are bill clinton, newt
gingrich, the dali lama or ....ah...it's early and i can't think of the
name of the chinese premier. the kuwaiti royal family was not worth the
effort to defend, and the whole gulf war strikes me as an elaborate ploy
to test a new generation of hi tech weapons in the sand. yowee. we used
smart bombs that were marginally successful on a buncha 15 year olds
armed with wooden practice rifles while the kuwaiti royal family disco'd
the night away in egypt, then we whine that saddam is testing chemical
weapons, which we sold him the chemicals for, on humans, when that's
exactly what our reasons were for staging the war in the first place
off topic? like ginsberg wasn't a political activist, like burroughs
wasn't concerned with the misuse of information/propaganda as
brainwashing and crowd control, like cassady didn't lie to get out of
the draft? ok.....
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:54:39 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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> I believe that toward the end, during the sixties, Ginsberg and Kerouac
> often battled over homosexuality. I don't want to say anymore, because
> what I remember of that is very faint and I don't want to say anything
> which isn't true.
>
> -Greg
towards the end kerouac also said: c'mon allen give me a blowjob, i'm
fat and old and the girls don't look at me anymore
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:02:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Politically Correct? I think not!
In-Reply-To: <34C31CD0.972@zipcon.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Tom: That is decidedly NOT what any of us were saying/proposing. The
question was not the politcal correctness or incorrectness of the words,
but rather Kerouacs use of them and what he meant by them, i.e. was he
homophobic or not. Nobody would be on this list of all places if he/she
were into "political correctness!" It was merely a lexical, semantic
discussion.
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Tom Christopher wrote:
> re: kerouac's use of the word queer, etc
>
> gee i hope we're not going to be too politically correct here. kerouac
> wrote in common language, and used the same language as ginsberg
>
> maybe in the future the literature council will ammend all offending
> language to a more pleasing: 'i was talking to another seeker on the
> spiritual path who, tho a masculine male, enjoyed sucking dicks" and
> those pesky junkies will be 'chemically dependant victims of society'
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:09:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: More Kerouac and homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <34C322D8.51FD@zipcon.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Is that a direct quote? If so, what's your source? Cuz' that's a damn
funny quote, if it was actually said. *laughing*
Curious as hell,
Sara
>
>
> towards the end kerouac also said: c'mon allen give me a blowjob, i'm
> fat and old and the girls don't look at me anymore
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:12:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Julian
In-Reply-To: <34C322D8.51FD@zipcon.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Allright, allright, can we stop ragging on Julian? You must admist, he DID
have a point... And remember the famous old adage, "Opinions are like
assholes, everybody has one." *big grin*
--Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:31:24 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Politically Correct? I think not!
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Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> Tom: That is decidedly NOT what any of us were saying/proposing. The
> question was not the politcal correctness or incorrectness of the
words...<snip>...
yeh, i think i understood the post, i just thought it was kinda
irrelevant. kerouac's behavior and language speak for themselves, and
after the fact arm chair quarterbacking is besides the point. i would
suggest gerry nicosia's memory babe covers the subject pretty
thoroughally, but i suspect that's what a lot of people (with an
otherwise self stated attachment to 'scholarship') have against the book
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:34:17 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: More Kerouac and homosexuality
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well, it's a paraphrase, but pretty close. i think ginsberg in memory
babe, but it could be jack's book
Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> Is that a direct quote? If so, what's your source? Cuz' that's a damn
> funny quote, if it was actually said. *laughing*
> Curious as hell,
> Sara
>
> >
> >
> > towards the end kerouac also said: c'mon allen give me a blowjob, i'm
> > fat and old and the girls don't look at me anymore
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:44:35 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
Comments: To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
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jhasbro@tezcat.com wrote:
>
> Tom Christopher wrote:
> >
> > i'd like to comment but i'm unclear as to whether to mail you directly
> > or post here, especially as you won't comment further, so i'll just
> > start a new thread about comicbooks
> >
> Which is precisely my point.
>
> -jwh
well, cassady was called both superman and the fastest man alive, which
is what the flash is known as.
superman can fly faster than the flash, but the flash can run faster
than superman, but it took phillip whalen with his 'secret buddhist
powers of concentration' to pull the dent out of the bumper of hitlers
staff car when cassady couldn't, so the question is: is phillip whalen
secretly thor, because it's well known only a god is as powerful as
superman (well, the old superman, not the new superman), except for
maybe the hulk.
gotta go recharge my power ring.....
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:44:05 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Julian
Content-Type: text/plain
>Allright, allright, can we stop ragging on Julian? You must admist, he
DID
>have a point...
I will wholeheartedly agree with the fact that he had a point, it was a
very good point... It was just very annoying to get 12 messages from the
list and have six of them be from Julian pissing and moaning about the
off-topicness of the other posts.
And remember the famous old adage, "Opinions are like
>assholes, everybody has one." *big grin*
> --Sara
A big grin here, also... Let's just drop it.
-Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:48:22 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
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>It seems to me that Burroughs along with Bob Kaufman through his vow of
>silence -- perhaps the greatest refusal, the purist rebellion, even if
>futile -- were trying to realize an essence to their lives rather than
>undermine the principle.
Silence futile? Didn't Buckminster Fuller, for one example, unlock the
doors to his creative perception by clearing his head of language through
long lasting silence?
leon
>
>Enjoyed the comments,
>
>Preston
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:28:11 EST
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Hey!
I feel that Kerouac was a better prose writer than poet- but to
dismiss him poetically on the basis of reading a few poems is absurd! Mexico
City Blues is an incredible work of poetry- as is the Frisco book.
Stephanie- you need to give him an honest and intense read. You will be
glad you did- maybe.
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:48:30 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
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>>It seems to me that Burroughs along with Bob Kaufman through his vow of
>>silence -- perhaps the greatest refusal, the purist rebellion, even if
>>futile -- were trying to realize an essence to their lives rather than
>>undermine the principle.
>
>Silence futile? Didn't Buckminster Fuller, for one example, unlock the
>doors to his creative perception by clearing his head of language through
>long lasting silence?
>
>leon
I don't know, but maybe silence over time leaves the mind saturations of
images, sounds, smells . . . alone, we top talking even to ourselves.
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:43:46 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble Question
Comments: To: cmdumond@ehc.edu
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Chris Dumond wrote:
>
> Mr Rhaesa...
call me David. my brother Jim is on Beat-L too so it could get
confusing for him (even though this is backchannel).
I don't disagree with a single thing you've written!
amazing!?!?!?!?!!
> While I don't consider myself a firm believer in the Christian faith, I
> was raised in it and I totally agree with you. I was just honing in on
> the "until now" part and would have to say that while grace is eternal,
> the sacrifice of Christ refers to a specific occaision -- the occaision
> to which Paul refers in his letter to Rome.
i pulled out my Langes commentary on the Holy Scriptures for Letters to
Rome and read a bit. I don't think that "until Now" should be
considered as the crucifixion or resurrection per se. The Now is about
the notion of Time one finds in Grace. It is important to recall that
in the Legend of Saul/Paul he had an epiphany "On the Road" in which his
persona was changed -- not by the crucifixion and resurrection -- but by
an epiphany of Grace. The notion of "Until NOW" from Paul's framework
(as opposed to Saul's) in this whole Legend seems to me to be about how
one experiences the presence of Time in a state of Grace. The notion of
Future is erased and replaced by Faith and Belief in the Grace of God.
I'm not certain that this perspective of christian theology is what Jack
was taught because i have little experience in Roman Catholic theology.
Ironically, my main interactions with Catholic theology has been
encounters with fellow patients in mental wards over the years.
It seems that the ideas of Guilt prominent in Catholic experience are
erased by the ideas of Grace in the messages of Paul to the Romans and
others. Funny, my Pop is re-reading Barclay's commentaries on Paul's
Letters lately while this thread is jumping up on Beat-L. And it seems
to me that it is relevant to the study of Kerouacian literature. It is
integral to an understanding of Jack's meanings that an examination of
his roman Catholic theological upbringing be incorporated more than has
been done to this point.
dbr
>
> Chris
>
> David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> >
> > Chris Dumond wrote:
> > >
> > > Howdy-Ho!
> > >
> > > > One of the responses said that the difference was in the "until now".
> > > >
> > >
> > > That would be me.
> > >
> > > > I appreciate that. With that in mind then, what is the difference
between
> > > > "until now" of Romans and the third noble truth that says suffering can
be
> > > > overcome?
> > >
> >
> > i can hardly believe that i am becoming a spokesperson for christian
> > dogma ... BUT:
> >
> > > There are several differences. The first and probably most significant
> > > is that Christian faith claims that THROUGH the final sacrifice of
> > > Jesus, mankind is saved from suffering.
> >
> > Christian faith claims mankind and womankind too <grin> are saved from
> > suffering through Grace. The final sacrifice of Jesus as with his life
> > are a symbolic path - they should not be interpreted to distract from
> > the basic message of Grace.
> >
> > Buddhist philosophy emphasizes
> > > a more personal absolution of suffering through a personal quest of the
> > > absolution of all the goodies of being a human being... lust, greed,
> > > etc.
> > >
> >
> > Seems this is represented in the symbolic gestures of the hep-cat jesus
> > in the wilderness and the dude also said that the Kingdom of God is
> > within which fits with the buddhist thoughts.
> >
> > > Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:51:51 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: back and beat
MIME-Version: 1.0
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x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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hi everyone. hit hideous snow-freezing rain after 'disembarking' from
amtrack yesterday at 4
pm
awesome visit, congenial hosts, and thanks to leon for getting me the
poetry gig. i had a blast, and it seems people enjoyed it.
thanks to leon ad ALL west coast beats.
flat on my back
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:07:48 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
Comments: To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Now, we all know that Kerouac puked in the elevator on his way up to the
>studio to appear on Wm. F. Buckley's _Firing Line_, and that Ginsberg
>gave Buckley the Evil Eye on live TV when Buckley called Allen
>_politically naive_.
A truer criticism of Ginsberg has yet been opined.
I saw that one on the Ginsberg Life and Times movie. You could tell
Buckley enjoyed and was impressed with Ginsberg's poem (as was I
watching--he was very good and these poems are much better understood when
read aloud--especially by the author himself).
When Ginsberg paused Buckley began to say "That was a good poem..." or
whatever but as Buckley began to speak Ginsberg quickly continued and went
on for a longer time with the poem. After Ginsberg finished it was then
that Buckley said (paraphrase) "that was a great poem but your politics are
naive."
I think that Ginsberg's competitiveness brought it on in that way. In the
little fights between the squares and hips etc... back in those silly days
the hips were usually the ones who were the aggressors.
>- William S. Burroughs thought Buddhism was stupid.
>
Did he for sure? I do know the quote you are referring to, it was posted
here not too long ago.
I think Burroughs thought asceticism was stupid. In general he thought
religion and religionists were stupid. In general he thought just about
everyone was stupid.
But he was more Buddhist than many of the other beats in terms of Buddhism
as practised around the world.
He was very superstitious and believed in all that stuff.
>- Jack Kerouac aced Mark Van Doren's Shakespeare class at Columbia, and
>Van Doren was, apart from being a woefully academic poet, a close friend
>and associate of Mortimer Adler, as well as the father of Charles Van
>Doren of _Quiz Show_ infamy.
>
Entertaining movie but overblown in self importance. Redford thought it
was Schindler's List or something.
>- Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
Did he? He also believed in Edgar Cayce, so so much for his discernment.
He also prayed along with Oral Roberts on TV. But the way Zen and Buddhism
is and was ofen presented it is a bunch of nonsense.
>
>- Mortimer Adler called Zen _an aberration_ on live radio.
>
I heard the name Mortimer Adler before, but who is he?
>- When, after an LSD experience, Jack Kerouac wrote Timothy Leary to
>express his thoughts regarding the drug, he closed the letter with
>_Touch football sometime?_.
>
Understandable. Read Leary's bio Flashbacks to understand and make the
connection.
>- In that TV commercial advertising his periodical, _The National
>Review_, Wm. F. Buckley talks to the camera while behind him there is a
>1st edition set of Britannica's Great Books of the Western World, edited
>by Mortimer Adler. There's also a set behind the president/client on the
>Hair Club For Men commercial. Any others?
>
Those are probably cardboard look-alikes.
>
>I won't discuss this any furthur.
I won't get on that bus.
>
>-JOHN HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:08:17 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: back and beat
Welcome back mc, west coast world class poet!
DB
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:33:40 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: WSB & Buddhism
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
HASBROUCK:> >- William S. Burroughs thought Buddhism was stupid.
> >
>
> Did he for sure? I do know the quote you are referring to, it was posted
> here not too long ago.
>
> I think Burroughs thought asceticism was stupid. In general he thought
> religion and religionists were stupid. In general he thought just about
> everyone was stupid.
>
>
HASBROUCK RESPONDS: Upon reflection, I must confess that when I stated
that WSB thought Buddhism was stupid, I may have lapsed into provocation
(which was an easy slip, since my posting was obviously satiric). More
accurately, (here I go again) WSB may have thought that Buddhists were
stupid. But, seriously, I am thinking of the book _The Burroughs File_,
specifically his account of when he was compelled by some Buddhist
friends of Allen's (among them Rinpoche) to go on a _retreat_, (to which
he was not even supposed to bring a typewriter! He insisted on pen and
paper at the very least, or the trip was off). In this piece (which I
don't have in front of me) Bill makes some hilarious remarks about the
fact that the fire extinguisher in his cabin was underneath the stove,
probably put there, he says, by _some spaced-out Buddhist_. He then goes
on to describe the scene in his head of the panicking Buddhist
deparately reaching through the flames for the fire extinguisher.
Hilarious.
In the same essay, regarding the Buddhist precept of compassion to all
sentient beings, Burroughs remarks demurely, _I will not co-exist with
flys._
I've heard Burroughs called a moralist. I agree. But religious? I think
not.
_If you're doing business with a religious son-of-a-bitch GET IT IN
WRITING._ ...Burroughs audio from _Smack My Crack_ LP, Giorno Poetry
Systems.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:42:08 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Cassady & Zen
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
HASBROUCK> >- Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
>
> Did he? He also believed in Edgar Cayce, so so much for his discernment.
> He also prayed along with Oral Roberts on TV. But the way Zen and Buddhism
> is and was ofen presented it is a bunch of nonsense.
>
HASBROUCK RESPONDS: I got that impression from reading _Grace Beats
Karma_, (one of the great titles of the Beat canon), Neal Cassady's
letters from prison. I seem to remember him being fairly explicit about
it. This was the late fifties and Neal was really into Cayce and, of
course, Catholicism.
Was Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
of the TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
It occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
Kerouac and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
to write an essay on this topic?
-JWH
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:47:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...Silence
In-Reply-To: <v01540b03b0e94dda69b2@[146.201.2.89]>
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>>>It seems to me that Burroughs along with Bob Kaufman through his vow of
>>>silence -- perhaps the greatest refusal, the purist rebellion, even if
>>>futile -- were trying to realize an essence to their lives rather than
>>>undermine the principle.
>>
>>Silence futile? Didn't Buckminster Fuller, for one example, unlock the
>>doors to his creative perception by clearing his head of language through
>>long lasting silence?
>>
>>leon
>
>
>I don't know, but maybe silence over time leaves the mind saturations of
>images, sounds, smells . . . alone, we top talking even to ourselves.
>
>Preston
YES, Bob Kaufman, very Beat poet, who, after JFK was assasinated took a
Buddist vow of silence and stopped speaking and writing for about ten
years.
In the Introduction to CRANIAL GUITARS: SELECTED POEMS BY BOB KAUFMAN
(Coffee House Press, Mpls.MN 1996, Ed. by Gerald Nicosia) David Henderson
wrote: "In 1973, just after the Vietnam War ended, Bob and Eileen Kaufman
were in Palo Alto with a group of friends attending an exhibition of
photoghraphs before visiting Kenneth Patchen's widow, Miriam. Eileen
Kaufman recalls, "Thee was a little chamber group playing. I was talking to
sme people and allof the sudden Bob began to recite 'Murder in the
Cathedral' by Eliot. And that was the first thing he said when he came out
of his silence. and people were just startled, theyhad their cups halfway
to their mouths. They hadn't head him for years and years and he started
just like that. And he said to me, 'All those ships that never sailed/Today
I bring thm home and let them sail forever.' Themost beautiful poem. I
didn't even know he was working on it. But from then on he was very lucid.
I never gavce up on Bob. I knew he'd surprise us all one day and come out
of it and be as beautiful as ever."
Can I make a pitch for the book and quote from the back cover?
"CRANIAL GUITAR, is the only major collection available of the late Bob
Kaufman's classic works, contains selections from THE ANCIENT RAIN,
SOLITUDES CROWDED WITH LONELINESS, the entire text of the long-out-of-print
"Golden Sardine," as well as poems that have never appeared inbook form
including the last one Kaufman wrote before his death in 1986."
and
"So much did he embody a French tradition of the poet as outsider, madman,
and outcast, that in France, Kaufman was called the Black Rimboud."
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:26:44 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: duh
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well my mail box exploded along weith my address book. hys, contact me
one on one, so i can be back in the game.
thanks.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:53:34 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> i remember visiting william after the gulf war broke out. we shared a
> long discussion about the vile dreams it gave us. I am sorry i don't
> remember williams, mine was i was falling in an endless dark water and
> couldn't figure out which direction was up, light shadows of skeletons
> floated around me. William and i spoke of sleepless early morning dread
> of war. It awakens in me again, always aware that war can go global but
> also local. I have been anti christian for a long time . I remember i
> was shocked at the catholic funeral of mike that i attended with william
> and george kaul. George is also anti christian but so deaf that he
> didn't get outraged when the priest was going on. Mike was a suicide.
> rotten service for me. Discussing it with william, he grieving over
> mike, he didn't find the same objections i did with the service. He
> indicated that it was more to do with mikes family. I was relieved the
> "pastor" at williams service was tim miller, a good writer, (tim
> performed bobs and my marriage ceremony, and christened lena), and he is
> an on the road kind of guy, very very nontraditional. He has done some
> very interesting writing work on the waco group (karresh?)and on commune
> life in america.
> well this non christian believes in prayer and is praying for peace. I
> believed there was a man named jesus and he believed in love and he was
> killed, and everytime someone is born that beleives in love mankind is
> saved a little.
> patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:15:44 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Comments: To: Tom Christopher <tkc@zipcon.com>
In-Reply-To: <34C31EF9.57DD@zipcon.com>
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> ginsberg said the weakness of kerouac and cassady's friendship was that
> they could never put down their macho roles and have sex, and thus show
> one another how they really felt. if they'd had sex it would've been
> common knowledge. i would like to see one person who knew either one of
> them first hand make this statement.
But didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand?
"Giving me a new idea is like handing a cretin a loaded revolver, but I do
thank you anyway, bang, bang."
--Philip K. Dick, letter to a fan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:44:00 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Erratum of sorts (was Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet)
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>Mike Rice would do well to read a little bit of the Dalai Llama's writings.
>He is in the tradition of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. The Nobel Peace
>Prize was awarded to the Dalai Lama because of his nonviolence, not because of
>anything to do with the cold war.
>
Mike rice is in good company. The Chinese Communists have made this a
standard line in their propaganda. I have heard it 100's of times. In
fact Jiang Zemin on his fall visit to these United States (where he was
given a 21 gun salute and the highest honors available to anyone who visits
this country) said that China going into Tibet and what they did there was
just like Lincoln freeing the slaves!!.
But this is not the "erratum"
>As for Allen Ginsberg - it is also a matter of fact that he was kicked out of
>both communist Cuba and communist Czechoslovakia due to his contacts with
>human rights advocates. And when did he ever write on behalf of the "Chinese
>line" - only in your imagination?
>
I refer to this by
>Howard Park
I think Howard you wrote it in response to my earlier post which was
<<In the 1950's the "evil CIA" was supporteding the dalai lama and the
people of Tibet (this went on even after the Dalai Lama escaped with the
help of the CIA until that paragon of virtue John F. Kennedy said no more
help to the Tibetans).
At the same time the writer of Moloch Moloch, our own Ginsy was trumpteting
and advocating the Chinese Communist line that the US should be freinds
with them and they should have their spot in the UN which was denied them
due to their actions in Tibet and in general throughout China and the
region.
Strange how it was Ginsberg who sided with the repressors of Tibet whereas
as the one's called evil by Ginsy and others were the only people trying to
help the Tibetans.>>
Concerning my dreaming I will refer you to page 138 of Journals Early
Fifties, Early Sixties where in an entry (9/13/60) (a letter to Corso I
believe) #15 of Ginsberg's pet peeves of what the US govt was doing (or
whatever this list could be called) was "Bar recognition of China and
Admittance into the UN".
So he was complaining about China not getting its' proper place in the UN
and the US refusal to have diplomatic ties with them and was siding with
that PRC line.
But the erratum comes in that I looked at the two Journals, the
aforementioned and also 54 - 58 and after seeing various entries I think
that my statement about siding with the repressors was too strong or
simplistic.
He did in terms of the UN entry question and in terms of support for the
Nationalists but he did make other entries that make his opinions more
textured.
I don't have specific references for these but the journals have indexes so
they can easily be looked up.
One was he called mao's literature a bunch of garbage and wrote "I refused
to be brainwashed" (a paraphrase). he was talking about brainwashed by the
left in this case where he wouldn't buy the accolades of and non-critical
examination of the communists. Given his background he must be given his
due for this. He did make entries about the problems of the communist rule
that would put him at odds with the leftist establishment. (Although how
much in public he made these things clear I don't know).
Also in a 1961 entry he does write "China just shat on Tibet". Well, to
continue with his metaphor by 1961 the Communists had gotten of the pot and
even finished wiping themselves, but it does indicate he beame aware of
that situation.
I think that with Ginsberg's politics we need to remember his spiritual
forefather Whitman's line about being large and containing multitudes.
And Howard, your synopsis of the history of US support for Tibet was
succint and more well done than mine.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:42:21 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Happy Birthday to ....
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Edgar Allen Poe and Janis Joplin
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:06:28 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday three ....
In-Reply-To: <34C3C8BD.2FB@midusa.net>
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>Edgar Allen Poe and Janis Joplin
>dbr
David,
Don't forget Lysander Spooner.
This is also ARTIST AS OUTLAW DAY and the day Thomas Hart Benton died in
Kansas City
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:06:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <88ae917a.34c3a94d@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Who the hell is Stephanie? The dude that purported that Kerouac was "no
poet" was some guy named Thomas who subsequently got pissed and left the
list because I and several other people suggested that he read Mexico City
Blues, Book of Blues, Scattered Poems and Pomes all Sizes, and THEN see if
he still hated Kerouacs poetry... It was actually rather amusing...:)
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, GTL1951 wrote:
> Hey!
> I feel that Kerouac was a better prose writer than poet- but to
> dismiss him poetically on the basis of reading a few poems is absurd! Mexico
> City Blues is an incredible work of poetry- as is the Frisco book.
> Stephanie- you need to give him an honest and intense read. You will be
> glad you did- maybe.
> GT
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:58:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman <the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Hello all,
Thank you, Race, for pointing out that I've turned off the lurk. . .
let's just hope I can keep my head above water with the responses.
I think this "Kerouac no poet" thread is great. The only problem I have
are the knee-jerk responses. Sara's sticks out in my mind most of all
(though I don't have it here to quote from) as being very emotional. Sure,
poetry is emotional. . . but where's your proof of Kerouac's poetical
greatness? It seems that the few who are agreeing with this thread are at
least "putting up," while those who have challenged have responded with
little more than a general tone of "Damn you, Blasphemer."
Don't get me wrong, I love Kerouac's poetry--probably more so than his
prose. One of the greatest things, I think, about Jack's poetry is that he
shows us all that we, too, can be poets. There's nothing technical to it,
it's easy to read and digest, even easier to listen to. However, these
things alone, let's face it, don't make a person a poet.
An short second-hand anecdote. . . While in college, a former English
professor of mine (known hereafter as Rick) planned to give a thesis on
Frank O'Hara, someone who I think most of us will agree is a poet. When he
discussed it with his advisor, Rick was told to forget it, that the English
department did not consider O'Hara a poet, much less a worthy subject of a
thesis.
What's the point I'm trying to make? I guess it comes down to this: in
a world where things are becoming more relative by the day, the only thing
anyone can agree on all of them time (it seems) is that nothing can be
agreed upon. In the end, Rick did give his thesis on O'Hara and did
remarkably well, even convinced his professor to take a second look. He
didn't manage that by simply stating that O'Hara is a great poet simply
because he said so, or having a crying jag in his professor's office. We,
of all people, should be open to variances of opinion. . .
Why do <i>you</i> think Jack's such a great poet?
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:43:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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A "poet" doesn't have to have a list of credentials (i.e. a degree), or
"know how" to do it, nor is there anybody in the right to say who is or
isn't a "poet." Poetry resides in sincerity and earnest
expression...everything Kerouac was to his art...you can no more describe
what a poem is than to define what "art" is. Some universities (UMass Lowell
among them) don't even think Kerouac is much of a writer. Where does that
truth lie? P.
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:06:57 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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In a message dated 98-01-19 18:09:42 EST, you write:
<<
Who the hell is Stephanie? The dude that purported that Kerouac was "no
poet" was some guy named Thomas who subsequently got pissed and left the
list because I and several other people suggested that he read Mexico City
Blues, Book of Blues, Scattered Poems and Pomes all Sizes, and THEN see if
he still hated Kerouacs poetry... It was actually rather amusing...:)
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio? >>
Oh, hi, I'm Stephanie. After that guy Thomas said whatever it was he said, I
replied that although I had read very little of Kerouac's poetry, I was "less
than impressed" (I think were my exact words.) I find his prose to be a little
more "poetic" :) I do intend on finding some of his spoken word (I haven't
actually *heard* much beat poetry at all), especially since everyone here on
this list thinks it's so important.
And yeah, when Thomas left... that was kind of funny. But if you read that
"Nirvana" post of his, you knew it would be coming. Very very hostile...
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:12:46 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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In a message dated 98-01-19 16:19:17 EST, donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU (Donald G. Jr.
Lee) write:
<< But didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand? >>
You mean this literally, right? I remember hearing that Kerouac and Ginsberg
would, at the end of a long night of partying, jerk each other off, I guess is
the best way to say it. Actually, I think AG was the one that said that. I'm
not positive though, so don't quote me on it.
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:05:58 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Beat-l scope
Recent postings on what's appropriate to post on Beat-l lead me to
remind people that posts should relate to the lives and works of Beat
writers, particularly Kerouac, Burroughs, and Ginsberg. After all, this
list was formed to discuss this topic. At times a thread on people or
issues not directly related to the beats may develop from an appropriate
post. For example, a post discussing William Burroughs' influence on
Kurt Cobain may lead to an exchange about Cobain's life or work; a
discussion on Kerouac as an existentialist may lead to a broader
discussion of existentialism. As the focus of one's post drifts further from
Beat topics, one should think about backchanneling or continuting the conversa
tion privately. Listmembers have a right to expect the conversation on Beat-l
to focus on the list's stated concerns and complaints about messages that are c
ompletely off topic are justified, especially when these messages continue for
several posts. Asking people to remain focused on Beat-related topics isn't ce
nsorship but good manners. Of course, such complaints, as someone pointed out
over the weekend, tend to be more effective when they are expressed with civili
ty. Let's try to remember to stick to Beat topics, to reply privately to mess
ages that aren't of interest to the list as a whole, and to snip or summarize t
hose long posts rather than reprint them. Doing this will make Beat-l a better
list for all of us. Bill Gargan, listowner.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:31:04 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Hey Stephanie
I think you will be very very good for this list. Get everybody
all fired up!
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:27:00 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Well Sara
Excuse me all to hell! Guess I came in late on the thing. Still stand
by what I wrote. Saw Stephanie as a name at the bottom of one of the posts and
made a wrong assumption- I guess. Figure the world is still turning tho- and
more idiots and savants being born every minute,
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:56:33 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> Who the hell is Stephanie? The dude that purported that Kerouac was "no
> poet" was some guy named Thomas who subsequently got pissed and left the
> list because I and several other people suggested that he read Mexico City
> Blues, Book of Blues, Scattered Poems and Pomes all Sizes, and THEN see if
> he still hated Kerouacs poetry... It was actually rather amusing...:)
Kerouac hisssself says he writes prose not poetry in one of the tracks
on the 3 CD collection. Who knows why Jack said that - but he did.
Perhaps we were too quick to piss all over this Tom cat. (i couldn't
resist that <grin>)
dbr
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:15:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
In-Reply-To: <611f57f1.34c2a6eb@aol.com>
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The Dalai Llama came from a regime that was not
democratic before his time, and not afterward. We
only supported the tyranny of his backward country
because it was a minor bulwark against communism.
The Dalai Llama may muse in his writings about whatever
he likes. His regime was a tyranny, a feudal system
with him as a God-figure, a ridiculous little place
that got a rude taste of the twentieth and maybe three
previous centuries, when the Chinese Communists swept in.
I imagine Kennedy stopped helping him because there was
no way the Dalai Llama and his regime would ever be anything
we could stomach anyway.
Haille Selassie was lionized by the non-axis
West for years because he opposed Mussolini. But Haille
Selassie was himself a tyrant. The making of foreign
policy is a difficult matter for Americans to divine. One
thing about it is transparent. The American Press always
eventually apes the prevalent point of view in Washington,
lionizing that view's heroes, and stabbing its villains.
The latest villain is Saddam Hussein. As long as he doesn't
go back to Kuwait, we don't really care what he does. All this
sword-rattling going on lately, is just the usual interests
trying to get something going over there for their own reasons,
and those reasons are not in the broad interest of the American
people. We didn't care a whit about the Kurds before we were
ending the Gulf war and looking for a way to crown ourselves
even bigger heroes. Help the Kurds, we said, well we can stop
helping them anytime. They have never been of any interest to
us. Neither are the people of Somalia nor Bosnia. Sentiment
is used to establish foreign policy with supporting public
opinion, but behind the scenes there isn't an ounce of sentiment,
the various actors and players are cold and calculating. And they
should be. Americans just don't want to admit that we're not good
guys. We are no better than other powers in the world, we just can't
admit it to ourselves publicly.
Mike Rice
At 08:05 PM 1/18/98 EST, you wrote:
>Mike Rice would do well to read a little bit of the Dalai Llama's writings.
>He is in the tradition of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. The Nobel Peace
>Prize was awarded to the Dalai Lama because of his nonviolence, not
because of
>anything to do with the cold war.
>
>Genocide is wrong. That is exactly the policy, the evil, of what the Chinese
>have done to the people of Tibet. Hitler was a great "modernizer" too but he
>does not get a lot of credit with the people who died in the death camps.
>Wake up - there were wrongs done on both sides of the cold war.
>
>As for Allen Ginsberg - it is also a matter of fact that he was kicked out of
>both communist Cuba and communist Czechoslovakia due to his contacts with
>human rights advocates. And when did he ever write on behalf of the "Chinese
>line" - only in your imagination?
>
>Howard Park
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:15:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <094ee0007001318UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I've only read On The Road. A jealous Truman Capote called
it typing, but it is poetry. Ginsberg called Jack's writing
poetry. I seem to recall Jack talking about "Dean, Dean, Dean
that God Damn Dean,." Years later I picked up the echoes in it
from Kipling's Gunga Din. On The Road has a poetic voice
all the way through. Especially poetic is the ecstatic
language about Dean Moriarty. I always wondered if Dean's
last name was dragged out of Sherlock Holmes. Moriarty was
Holmes' nemesis, though that wouldn't seem to have anything
to do with Dean.
Mike Rice
At 04:04 PM 1/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
>to my mind Kerouac captured the beauty and music of 20th century American
>English like no one before or sense. the images, tone, rhythm, alliteration
>are amazing. i can understand someone not liking his poetry, but i can't
>understand someone saying he's no poet. most of his prose has a great deal
>of poetic language use.
>
>ciao, sherri
>-----Original Message-----
>From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 3:02 PM
>Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
>
>
>To my mind, there isn't much difference between good prose and good poetry.
>Both do the same thing: create images you can feel. I'm moved by Bukowski,
>Roethke, Ferlinghetti, Plath, Frost, Whitman, Shakespeare, e.e.
>cummings--all
>for different reasons, stylewise, but for the same end: the pictures or
>feelings they create.
>
>My first responses to Kerouac's poetry, which came in the 70's with Mexico
>City Blues, were that he should stick to prose. But later readings, as I got
>older (and, I believe, gained a deeper understanding and appreciation of
>Life,
>including all its joys and sorrows) hit me like a ton of anything you want
>to
>name. Reading his stuff aloud with a bold voice (not like these stupid
>affectations one hears in a variety of readings, which I loathe) makes them
>come alive even more. And it seems he always sticks in one phrase that is
>just
>killer, something that brings it all home, makes me wonder and wander off
>into
>a little vision.
>
>It's only been lately I've been able to FEEL what a genius he had for
>poetry.
>Maybe in time, that feeling will come to others who don't have the patience
>or
>understanding for him and his life.
>
>Now that I'm getting to be "his age," meaning, the age when he died, I look
>back at things he wrote years earlier and think of my own mortality, and
>his.
>This is the poem that's been haunting me lately:
>
>Someday you'll be lying
>there in a nice trance
>and suddenly a hot
>soapy brush will be
>applied to your face
> It'll be unwelcome
> someday the
>undertaker will shave you
>
>Nuff said.
>MD
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:11:25 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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TKQ wrote:
>
> A "poet" doesn't have to have a list of credentials (i.e. a degree), or
> "know how" to do it, nor is there anybody in the right to say who is or
> isn't a "poet." Poetry resides in sincerity and earnest
> expression...everything Kerouac was to his art...
so in thinking Kerouacianly what is the difference between poetry and
prose? Certainly his prose was and is revered by fans for sincerity and
earnest expression. perhaps Jack breaks down the lines between prose
and poetry compleatly [aside: only for Allen Ginsberg to piece them back
together again] but at present i don't understand anything
distinguishing Jack's talents as a poet from those of his natural
literary turf - narrative prose.
you can no more describe
> what a poem is than to define what "art" is.
And didn't Jack and Allen try and define what art is until William
showed them the silliness of their musings? I believe that a poem or
poet is perhaps a more definitive term than that of "art". Emerson
wrote of the poet - should we erase the title of that essay and just
replace it with "writer"? Of course not!
Some universities (UMass Lowell
> among them) don't even think Kerouac is much of a writer. Where does that
> truth lie?
What i find most fascinating about Jack's writing rests more in
departments far from the Literature building. Jack's writings bring
sociology and cultural studies to LIFE. It is somewhat easy to
understand why many Literature departments reject Jack's prose and
poetry - acceptance requires reworking quite a bit of Literary thought.
Ironically, (and a friend teaching in Tacoma and i were talking about it
over thanksgiving in Denver) Jack's influence seems greatest in English
departments in the teachings of English composition. Young graduate
students are asked to read essays by Peter Elbow on "Free Writing" as a
method of opening student's to innate writing abilities. Elbow's essays
are interesting and more structured but they derive (it seemed to us)
from the writing(typing) style [i don't particularly see typing as
derogatory - ya gotta be damn bright to type it like that] of Jackie
Kerouacky. His essays about writing provide a fine background to such
approaches and his narratives emphatically demonstrate that writing
about LIFE makes for good writing.
It will be interesting to see -- down the road -- what happens when
these rather glaring inconsistencies in approaches to reading and
writing slam into each other in English departments around America.
When they do, the Beat writers will certainly get more attention and
respect.
dbr
P.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:22:41 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<el snippo {as per Bill gargan's suggestions>
> And they
>should be. Americans just don't want to admit that we're not good
>guys. We are no better than other powers in the world, we just can't
>admit it to ourselves publicly.
>
>Mike Rice
>
>
Mike you are all over the board there.
But your last statement is obviously false as our participation on this
list and your ability to make your opinions known refute it.
I think your mistake is to compare the US to perfection rather than to
other countries.
(And follow up by me will go to Mike himself. What he says about Tibet and
feudalism is not absurd but is quite mistaken in the conlusion or analysis.
Suffice to say that at this time it is the Dalai Lama clique (to use the
communist term) that calls for a democratic system in Tibet and the
Communists that still in 1998 jail and kill folks for calling for this).
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:16:33 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble Question
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> David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
> i pulled out my Langes commentary on the Holy Scriptures for Letters to
> Rome and read a bit. I don't think that "until Now" should be
> considered as the crucifixion or resurrection per se. The Now is about
> the notion of Time one finds in Grace. It is important to recall that
> in the Legend of Saul/Paul he had an epiphany "On the Road" in which
> his
> persona was changed -- not by the crucifixion and resurrection -- but
> by
> an epiphany of Grace. The notion of "Until NOW" from Paul's framework
> (as opposed to Saul's) in this whole Legend seems to me to be about how
> one experiences the presence of Time in a state of Grace. The notion
> of
> Future is erased and replaced by Faith and Belief in the Grace of God.
>
> I'm not certain that this perspective of christian theology is what
> Jack
> was taught because i have little experience in Roman Catholic theology.
> Ironically, my main interactions with Catholic theology has been
> encounters with fellow patients in mental wards over the years.
>
> It seems that the ideas of Guilt prominent in Catholic experience are
> erased by the ideas of Grace in the messages of Paul to the Romans and
> others. Funny, my Pop is re-reading Barclay's commentaries on Paul's
> Letters lately while this thread is jumping up on Beat-L. And it seems
> to me that it is relevant to the study of Kerouacian literature. It is
> integral to an understanding of Jack's meanings that an examination of
> his roman Catholic theological upbringing be incorporated more than has
> been done to this point.
So, has anyone ever read any articles specific to Kerouac and
Catholicism? I have been told that one of the best sources for Catholic
interpretation of scriptures is Jerome Biblical Commentary but I have not
tracked one down. It would seem to me that whole idea of grace, which is
present in every Catholic mass, would eliminate the notion of guilt
entirely. As for time in the "until now," somewhat supporting David's
interpretation is a reference in my Bible from that line to a line, 2
Corinthians: 13, which says, "While we look not at the things which are
seen, but at the things which are not seen, for the things which are seen
are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." Grace then
is eternal, suffering is temporal; through grace one experiences eternity
now. Eternity is not a future expectation because it is beyond time, it
is timeless.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:55:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <01bd252d$bbaee800$1861e2cf@hartman>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Bruce: I think Kerouac is a "great" poet because his poetry is so free,
expressive, stream-of-consciosness unreserved, unrestrained, irreverent
and real. What pissed me off was the statement that Kerouac was "no poet,"
made by someone who hadn't even ventured to read very much of his poetry.
I therefore suggested a few works for him to read. That's all. And you
must admit, stating that Jack Kerouac is "no poet" on a Beat-listserve is
fightin' words! So sue me, I'm passionate about a LOT of literature from a
lot of different countries, centuries and periods. Literature will do that
to you...
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Bruce Hartman wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Thank you, Race, for pointing out that I've turned off the lurk. . .
> let's just hope I can keep my head above water with the responses.
>
> I think this "Kerouac no poet" thread is great. The only problem I have
> are the knee-jerk responses. Sara's sticks out in my mind most of all
> (though I don't have it here to quote from) as being very emotional. Sure,
> poetry is emotional. . . but where's your proof of Kerouac's poetical
> greatness? It seems that the few who are agreeing with this thread are at
> least "putting up," while those who have challenged have responded with
> little more than a general tone of "Damn you, Blasphemer."
> Don't get me wrong, I love Kerouac's poetry--probably more so than his
> prose. One of the greatest things, I think, about Jack's poetry is that he
> shows us all that we, too, can be poets. There's nothing technical to it,
> it's easy to read and digest, even easier to listen to. However, these
> things alone, let's face it, don't make a person a poet.
>
> An short second-hand anecdote. . . While in college, a former English
> professor of mine (known hereafter as Rick) planned to give a thesis on
> Frank O'Hara, someone who I think most of us will agree is a poet. When he
> discussed it with his advisor, Rick was told to forget it, that the English
> department did not consider O'Hara a poet, much less a worthy subject of a
> thesis.
>
> What's the point I'm trying to make? I guess it comes down to this: in
> a world where things are becoming more relative by the day, the only thing
> anyone can agree on all of them time (it seems) is that nothing can be
> agreed upon. In the end, Rick did give his thesis on O'Hara and did
> remarkably well, even convinced his professor to take a second look. He
> didn't manage that by simply stating that O'Hara is a great poet simply
> because he said so, or having a crying jag in his professor's office. We,
> of all people, should be open to variances of opinion. . .
> Why do <i>you</i> think Jack's such a great poet?
>
> Bruce
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:56:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980119234318.006a4db0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Amen to that!!! EXACTLY. Well-put, TKQ. Kerouac WAS his art...
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, TKQ wrote:
> A "poet" doesn't have to have a list of credentials (i.e. a degree), or
> "know how" to do it, nor is there anybody in the right to say who is or
> isn't a "poet." Poetry resides in sincerity and earnest
> expression...everything Kerouac was to his art...you can no more describe
> what a poem is than to define what "art" is. Some universities (UMass Lowell
> among them) don't even think Kerouac is much of a writer. Where does that
> truth lie? P.
> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:59:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <27234d6a.34c3eaa3@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Stephanie: Sorry, the Zucchini thing threw me off.:) Yeah, that guy was an
interesting one. And poeple say I'M emotional! *grin* He should have known
that making blind, unfounded statements wouldn't fly too well in here...
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Zucchini4 wrote:
> In a message dated 98-01-19 18:09:42 EST, you write:
>
> <<
> Who the hell is Stephanie? The dude that purported that Kerouac was "no
> poet" was some guy named Thomas who subsequently got pissed and left the
> list because I and several other people suggested that he read Mexico City
> Blues, Book of Blues, Scattered Poems and Pomes all Sizes, and THEN see if
> he still hated Kerouacs poetry... It was actually rather amusing...:)
>
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio? >>
>
> Oh, hi, I'm Stephanie. After that guy Thomas said whatever it was he said, I
> replied that although I had read very little of Kerouac's poetry, I was "less
> than impressed" (I think were my exact words.) I find his prose to be a little
> more "poetic" :) I do intend on finding some of his spoken word (I haven't
> actually *heard* much beat poetry at all), especially since everyone here on
> this list thinks it's so important.
>
> And yeah, when Thomas left... that was kind of funny. But if you read that
> "Nirvana" post of his, you knew it would be coming. Very very hostile...
>
> --Stephanie
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:03:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <7b00f8ed.34c3ec01@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Omigod, THAT is priceless...Has anyone else heard that? I would kill to
read Ginsberg's exact words. *laughing* Oh, to be a fly on the wall....
*laughing even harder*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Zucchini4 wrote:
> In a message dated 98-01-19 16:19:17 EST, donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU (Donald G. Jr.
> Lee) write:
>
> << But didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand? >>
>
> You mean this literally, right? I remember hearing that Kerouac and Ginsberg
> would, at the end of a long night of partying, jerk each other off, I guess is
> the best way to say it. Actually, I think AG was the one that said that. I'm
> not positive though, so don't quote me on it.
>
> --Stephanie
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:11:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <9eb8057a.34c3ef56@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
"Goofballs in the wine-- truck goes by." Can't we all just get along? By
the way, GTL, first of all, be careful who you call an idiot, and second
of all, if you're going to rip someone in a post that has nothing at all
to do with the beats, please use his/her personal e-mail address rather
than cluttering the list with it. *big sloppy kiss*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, GTL1951 wrote:
> Well Sara
> Excuse me all to hell! Guess I came in late on the thing. Still stand
> by what I wrote. Saw Stephanie as a name at the bottom of one of the posts and
> made a wrong assumption- I guess. Figure the world is still turning tho- and
> more idiots and savants being born every minute,
> GT
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:44:33 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Thread Bear
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I am deeply interested in the discussion of what ought or ought not be
discussed on this list. Unfortunately, I am unable to discuss it. At
least not on the list. At this time. Nonetheless, any discussion as to
whether non-beat messages should be posted or sent to me privately is
very important to me. And, in my opinion, warrant extended public
discourse. Whether or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
another topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
those who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
interested in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
pertaining to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
the relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
(Albeit, beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.
And I think Jack Kerouac would have agreed with me.
At this time I think it's important to point out that Mortimer Adler is
NOT beat, and all but says so in his 1970 book, _The Time of Our Lives_
(newly reprinted in paperback). This is, as far as I know, the only
mention of the Beats in any of Dr. Adler's 57 books. (Dr. Adler turned
95 last month, so let's all wish him a happy birthday - OK, now,
everybody: HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MORT!!) If anyone is interested in discussing
the _fact_ that Dr. Adler is NOT beat, you may e-mail me privately,
although since we are coming perilously close to beat-related topic,
your private message to me may become public at anytime. E-mail me if
you wish to discuss this. If you feel that it doesn't warrant
discussion, you may wish to start your own thread. Or your own list.
Thread.
Now, we all know that Kerouac puked in the elevator on his way up to the
studio to appear on Wm. F. Buckley's _Firing Line_, and that Ginsberg
gave Buckley the Evil Eye on live TV when Buckley called Allen
_politically naive_. But did you know that the person who appeared as a
guest on _Firing Line_ more than any other individual was Mortimer
Adler? Yes! It's true! If this isn't beat-related, I don't know what is.
Here are some topics I'd like to see discussed:
- William S. Burroughs thought Buddhism was stupid.
- Jack Kerouac aced Mark Van Doren's Shakespeare class at Columbia, and
Van Doren was, apart from being a woefully academic poet, a close friend
and associate of Mortimer Adler, as well as the father of Charles Van
Doren of _Quiz Show_ infamy.
- Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
- Mortimer Adler called Zen _an aberration_ on live radio.
- When, after an LSD experience, Jack Kerouac wrote Timothy Leary to
express his thoughts regarding the drug, he closed the letter with
_Touch football sometime?_.
- In that TV commercial advertising his periodical, _The National
Review_, Wm. F. Buckley talks to the camera while behind him there is a
1st edition set of Britannica's Great Books of the Western World, edited
by Mortimer Adler. There's also a set behind the president/client on the
Hair Club For Men commercial. Any others?
I won't discuss this any furthur.
-JOHN HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
Please don't break the harmony of this list by mentioning anything
this interesting again. But if you would be good enough to send it
to me privately, I certainly wouldn't object.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:50:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
> I am deeply interested in the discussion of what ought or ought not be
> discussed on this list. Any others?
>
> I won't discuss this any furthur.
>
> -JOHN HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
i'm dying. happy birthday mort! What did Jack write for his
Shakespeare class from Mort's friend. Don't forget another Mort was
beat-related biologically to WSB!!!
dbr
How about this: Is Morton Downey Jr. beat?
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:51:44 PST
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From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: back and beat
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hey db: once i become even slightly functional i'll have a tape for your
show. redid a couple including the insomnia cycle and i must say i
kicked butt.
more later. i'm currenntly involeved with war with isp. can only pull
down howtmail.
ps the observations cars ruled on the train across america. always
wanted to do it, now that i'm crazy broke and all the rest, i get todo
what i've always wanted to do.
mc
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Mon Jan 19 13:08:01 1998
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>Message-ID: <009C0874.891D7520.28@kenyon.edu>
>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:08:17 EST
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
>Subject: Re: back and beat
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Welcome back mc, west coast world class poet!
>
>DB
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:53:50 -0500
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From: Bruce Hartman <the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Paul (and others),
I assume your comment was aimed back at me, and even if it wasn't allow
me to comment. . .
>A "poet" doesn't have to have a list of credentials (i.e. a degree), or
>"know how" to do it, nor is there anybody in the right to say who is or
>isn't a "poet."
I don't believe I ever gave a check list for deeming someone a poet.
And your comment about rights, as in the right to say who is or isn't a poet
goes to prove the final point of my post: All things are relative--or better
yet: most people think all things are relative (persoanlly, I think there
are certain inalienable truths, beyond those outlined by TJ and the Boys).
>Poetry resides in sincerity and earnest
>expression...everything Kerouac was to his art...you can no more describe
>what a poem is than to define what "art" is. Some universities (UMass
Lowell
>among them) don't even think Kerouac is much of a writer. Where does that
>truth lie?
Funny you mention UMass. . . I believe that's where my professor friend
ran into the O'Hara naysayers. . . (sound's like an Irish Punk Band). When
push comes to shove, I'll agree that Kerouac was indeed a poet of grand
proportion. His methods, and ideas on writing (all forms) have influenced
most living poets and authors. God Bless him for it.
Let's consider why someone would come to a list like this and
emphatically state that Kerouac was no poet. My gut feeling is they were
looking to start something, but not necessarily a fight. Let's give them
what they were looking for. . . a decent discussion based on something more
substantive than emotional declarations. . .
Sara: I too am a passionate person. . . but I've learned (and I try to
keep this in mind at all times) that passion without direction is wasted.
Sleep tight, my beat friends,
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:59:51 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman <the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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YES!!!!!!!!!!
>I would be very
>interested in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
>pertaining to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
>the relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
>(Albeit, beat-related.)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:32:35 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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Mike
Goddamitt--this is my nominee for post of the year so far!
James
mike rice wrote:
> I am deeply interested in the discussion of what ought or ought not be
> discussed on this list. Unfortunately, I am unable to discuss it. At
> least not on the list. At this time. Nonetheless, any discussion as to
> whether non-beat messages should be posted or sent to me privately is
> very important to me. And, in my opinion, warrant extended public
> discourse. Whether or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
> another topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
> those who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
> interested in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
> pertaining to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
> the relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
> (Albeit, beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:44:35 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: WSB bibliography
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hey all,
I was browsing thru some library catalogs, and was wondering if anyone
here has ever seen, or knows anything at all about, the following
books:
Garcia-Robles, Jorge. _La bala perdida: William S. Burroughs en
Mexico, 1949-1952_. (Mexico DF: Ediciones del Milenio, 1995)
Hetmann, Frederik. _Dies Land ist unser: die Beat-Poeten William S.
Burroughs, Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac_. (Munchen: List, 1993)
Vila, Christian. _William S. Burroughs: le genie empoisonne_.
Monaco: Editions de Rocher/Jean-Paul Bertrand Editeur, 1992.
Weissner, Carl. _Burroughs: eine Bild-Biographie_. (Berlin: Nishen,
1994)
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:53:09 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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mike rice wrote:
>
> How about this: Is Morton Downey Jr. beat?
>
> Mike Rice
hey, anybody who punches himself out in a public toilet and scrawls a
swastika on his head is definately beat, but only in a lawrence lipton
kinda way, besides his dad was a bigband singer, daddy-o
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:49:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0e8e6d96b2f@[128.125.230.191]>
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At 12:07 PM 1/19/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>Now, we all know that Kerouac puked in the elevator on his way up to the
>>studio to appear on Wm. F. Buckley's _Firing Line_, and that Ginsberg
>>gave Buckley the Evil Eye on live TV when Buckley called Allen
>>_politically naive_.
>
>A truer criticism of Ginsberg has yet been opined.
>
>I saw that one on the Ginsberg Life and Times movie. You could tell
>Buckley enjoyed and was impressed with Ginsberg's poem (as was I
>watching--he was very good and these poems are much better understood when
>read aloud--especially by the author himself).
>
>When Ginsberg paused Buckley began to say "That was a good poem..." or
>whatever but as Buckley began to speak Ginsberg quickly continued and went
>on for a longer time with the poem. After Ginsberg finished it was then
>that Buckley said (paraphrase) "that was a great poem but your politics are
>naive."
>
>I think that Ginsberg's competitiveness brought it on in that way. In the
>little fights between the squares and hips etc... back in those silly days
>the hips were usually the ones who were the aggressors.
>
>
>>- William S. Burroughs thought Buddhism was stupid.
>>
>
>Did he for sure? I do know the quote you are referring to, it was posted
>here not too long ago.
>
>I think Burroughs thought asceticism was stupid. In general he thought
>religion and religionists were stupid. In general he thought just about
>everyone was stupid.
>
>But he was more Buddhist than many of the other beats in terms of Buddhism
>as practised around the world.
>
>He was very superstitious and believed in all that stuff.
>
>
>>- Jack Kerouac aced Mark Van Doren's Shakespeare class at Columbia, and
>>Van Doren was, apart from being a woefully academic poet, a close friend
>>and associate of Mortimer Adler, as well as the father of Charles Van
>>Doren of _Quiz Show_ infamy.
>>
>
>Entertaining movie but overblown in self importance. Redford thought it
>was Schindler's List or something.
>
>>- Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
>
>Did he? He also believed in Edgar Cayce, so so much for his discernment.
>He also prayed along with Oral Roberts on TV. But the way Zen and Buddhism
>is and was ofen presented it is a bunch of nonsense.
>
>>
>>- Mortimer Adler called Zen _an aberration_ on live radio.
>>
>
>I heard the name Mortimer Adler before, but who is he?
>
>
>>- When, after an LSD experience, Jack Kerouac wrote Timothy Leary to
>>express his thoughts regarding the drug, he closed the letter with
>>_Touch football sometime?_.
>>
>
>Understandable. Read Leary's bio Flashbacks to understand and make the
>connection.
>
>
>>- In that TV commercial advertising his periodical, _The National
>>Review_, Wm. F. Buckley talks to the camera while behind him there is a
>>1st edition set of Britannica's Great Books of the Western World, edited
>>by Mortimer Adler. There's also a set behind the president/client on the
>>Hair Club For Men commercial. Any others?
>>
>
>Those are probably cardboard look-alikes.
>
>
>>
>>I won't discuss this any furthur.
>
>I won't get on that bus.
>
>>
>>-JOHN HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
>
>
Johnny, You are alright!
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:01:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cassady & Zen
Comments: To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
In-Reply-To: <34C36633.6813@tezcat.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Was Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
of the TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
It occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
Kerouac and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
to write an essay on this topic?
-JWH
I would like to know about Neal and Oral, also. Might be a screenplay
in it. Remember Melvin and Howard, the story of Melvin Dunbar and his
attempt to horn in on the Howard Hughes legacy. I see Woody Harrelson
as Cassady, Woody is turning into a first rate actor, and is going to
be a large movie star, once people understand him. We'll have Cassady
show up at the time Oral makes his statement about God calling him
up to the big Pulpit in the Sky, unless those donations for the new
hospital reach Tower of Babel proportions.
And a Catholic school movie featuring Cassady and Jack as altar boys
going thru the usual wine-tasting antics, and wheedling embarassing
masturbation and bed-wetting stories from their friends, in the confessional.
This film could be made as a genre film. It wouldn't be true but it could
be interesting.
Mike Rice
At 02:42 PM 1/19/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>>
>HASBROUCK> >- Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
>>
>> Did he? He also believed in Edgar Cayce, so so much for his discernment.
>> He also prayed along with Oral Roberts on TV. But the way Zen and Buddhism
>> is and was ofen presented it is a bunch of nonsense.
>>
>HASBROUCK RESPONDS: I got that impression from reading _Grace Beats
>Karma_, (one of the great titles of the Beat canon), Neal Cassady's
>letters from prison. I seem to remember him being fairly explicit about
>it. This was the late fifties and Neal was really into Cayce and, of
>course, Catholicism.
>
>Was Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
>of the TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
>
>It occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
>Kerouac and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
>to write an essay on this topic?
>
>-JWH
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:09:44 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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A point to keep in mind on all of this sort of thing...
A friend of mine who is a big Ginsberg fan once pointed out to me after
reading one of the Ginsberg biographies that a great many of Ginsberg's
personal anecdotes (particularly about noteworthy people) end the same way:
"...and then we went to bed together."
When told that Ginsberg claimed that he and Corso had been lovers, Corso
was said to have laughed, "That Ginzy! He'll say anything!"
Keep smiling...
Jym
----------
> From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
> Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 6:12 PM
>
> In a message dated 98-01-19 16:19:17 EST, donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU (Donald G.
Jr.
> Lee) write:
>
> << But didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand? >>
>
> You mean this literally, right? I remember hearing that Kerouac and
Ginsberg
> would, at the end of a long night of partying, jerk each other off, I
guess is
> the best way to say it. Actually, I think AG was the one that said that.
I'm
> not positive though, so don't quote me on it.
>
> --Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:35:22 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cassady & Zen
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sounds like a good pitch Mike, but I got that from memory babe and all it
was was that cassidy would bow his head and have everyone do likewise when
Oral prayed on TV as they were watching.
>Was Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
>of the TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
>
>It occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
>Kerouac and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
>to write an essay on this topic?
>
>-JWH
>
>I would like to know about Neal and Oral, also. Might be a screenplay
>in it. Remember Melvin and Howard, the story of Melvin Dunbar and his
>attempt to horn in on the Howard Hughes legacy. I see Woody Harrelson
>as Cassady, Woody is turning into a first rate actor, and is going to
>be a large movie star, once people understand him. We'll have Cassady
>show up at the time Oral makes his statement about God calling him
>up to the big Pulpit in the Sky, unless those donations for the new
>hospital reach Tower of Babel proportions.
>
>And a Catholic school movie featuring Cassady and Jack as altar boys
>going thru the usual wine-tasting antics, and wheedling embarassing
>masturbation and bed-wetting stories from their friends, in the confessional.
>This film could be made as a genre film. It wouldn't be true but it could
>be interesting.
>
>Mike Rice
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 02:42 PM 1/19/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>>>
>>HASBROUCK> >- Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
>>>
>>> Did he? He also believed in Edgar Cayce, so so much for his discernment.
>>> He also prayed along with Oral Roberts on TV. But the way Zen and Buddhism
>>> is and was ofen presented it is a bunch of nonsense.
>>>
>>HASBROUCK RESPONDS: I got that impression from reading _Grace Beats
>>Karma_, (one of the great titles of the Beat canon), Neal Cassady's
>>letters from prison. I seem to remember him being fairly explicit about
>>it. This was the late fifties and Neal was really into Cayce and, of
>>course, Catholicism.
>>
>>Was Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
>>of the TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
>>
>>It occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
>>Kerouac and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
>>to write an essay on this topic?
>>
>>-JWH
>>
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:35:30 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 19-Jan-98 11:46:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU writes:
<<
I don't know, but maybe silence over time leaves the mind saturations of
images, sounds, smells . . . alone, we top talking even to ourselves.
Preston
>>
Preston, I assume you meant to say "stop" not "top," but I have to say I've
been alone forever, and I talk to myself alla time. Go ahead. Try and 'top me.
And ain't this list been innaresting for last coupla days? A real desire to
dig in and think and share and LISTEN has triumphed over bickering, ego trips,
people who take themselves too seriously and fear of being wrong, and I feel
all the better for it. Probably now I've cursed it, tho, by mentioning it.
Damn.
Special thanks to John Hasbrouck for the comic relief. It was transcendant.
I'm goofin.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:37:18 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: back and beat
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Marie, where do you live? Don't mean to be snoopy but I was kind of wondering
how long a journey this was for you, and whether you'd been to SF before.
maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:42:01 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>A point to keep in mind on all of this sort of thing...
>
>A friend of mine who is a big Ginsberg fan once pointed out to me after
>reading one of the Ginsberg biographies that a great many of Ginsberg's
>personal anecdotes (particularly about noteworthy people) end the same way:
>"...and then we went to bed together."
>
>When told that Ginsberg claimed that he and Corso had been lovers, Corso
>was said to have laughed, "That Ginzy! He'll say anything!"
>
>Keep smiling...
>
>Jym
Good post. I was going to say something to this effect.
Ginsberg gave an interview where he said after jack died he went to
memere's house and convinced her to let him end and he ended up holding her
and singing Blake's lamb to her.
A wonderfull image and would be quite a nice ending to their years of enmity.
I had no reason to disbelieve this anecdote until some fellow on this list
(I can't remember who--it was year or two ago) pointed out that this
probably didn't happen and he had good reasons.
So with Ginsberg maybe life is a stage and fact is as good as fiction.
>
>----------
>> From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
>> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
>> Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 6:12 PM
>>
>> In a message dated 98-01-19 16:19:17 EST, donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU (Donald G.
>Jr.
>> Lee) write:
>>
>> << But didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand? >>
>>
>> You mean this literally, right? I remember hearing that Kerouac and
>Ginsberg
>> would, at the end of a long night of partying, jerk each other off, I
>guess is
>> the best way to say it. Actually, I think AG was the one that said that.
>I'm
>> not positive though, so don't quote me on it.
>>
>> --Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:28:04 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
Mike wrote:
<<Whether or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
another topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
those who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
interested in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
pertaining to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
the relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
(Albeit, beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.>>
This couldn't be better stated by anybody. right on Mike <laughing
mightily>. ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:43:16 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
you wrote:
<<superman can fly faster than the flash, but the flash can run faster
than superman, but it took phillip whalen with his 'secret buddhist
powers of concentration' to pull the dent out of the bumper of hitlers
staff car when cassady couldn't, so the question is: is phillip whalen
secretly thor, because it's well known only a god is as powerful as
superman (well, the old superman, not the new superman), except for
maybe the hulk.>>
YEE HAA!! keep it comin' you guys. ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:53:35 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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In a message dated 19-Jan-98 3:11:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM (aka Bruce Hartman) writes:
<< An short second-hand anecdote. . . While in college, a former English
professor of mine (known hereafter as Rick) planned to give a thesis on
Frank O'Hara, someone who I think most of us will agree is a poet. When he
discussed it with his advisor, Rick was told to forget it, that the English
department did not consider O'Hara a poet, much less a worthy subject of a
thesis.
>>
Interestingly enough, I have this bit from a newspaper article about Kerouac
from 10 years ago that touches on this O'Hara thing as well as the
spirituality thing:
When [Kerouac] shouted to the poet Frank O'Hara "You're ruining American
poetry," O'Hara retorted, "That's more than you could do." When a TV announcer
asked him, "Tell me, Jack, just exactly what you're looking for," Jack
responded simply, "I'm waiting for God to show me His face."
At least, it's interesting to me.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:09:37 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: back and beat
MIME-Version: 1.0
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IDDHI wrote:
>
> Marie, where do you live? Don't mean to be snoopy but I was kind of wondering
> how long a journey this was for you, and whether you'd been to SF before.
>
> maggie
marie lives in outer mongolia
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:06:38 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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In a message dated 19-Jan-98 8:46:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
love_singing@MSN.COM writes:
<< Mike wrote:
<<Whether or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
another topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
those who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
interested in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
pertaining to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
the relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
(Albeit, beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.>>
This couldn't be better stated by anybody. right on Mike <laughing
mightily>. ciao, sherri
>>
Sherri, James, anyone else who's confused: Marvelous Mike Rice did not author
this. It was the facetious brilliance of John Hasbrouck, long obscured by
repeated snippings and respondings. He made me laugh out loud, so I thought
I'd just make sure he got the credit for that. Hasbrouck, tongue in cheek
comic relief on What Is Beat and should be discussed on the list. The rest of
us bow in reverence and snicker into our hands.
Let us pray we get more stuff like this when we need it. Amen.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:18:53 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Subterr7 <Subterr7@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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I think we need to remember, or think about, two things when discussing the
beats and homosexuality. First, we will have problems if we want to have nice
well define boxes/labels to fit sexual behavior. Is Kerouac a homosexual who
had heterosexual experiences or vica versa? Maybe he is bisexual? Usually,
the bias of the people toward one sexual orientation shows when these type of
discussions begin. In this case it "helps" us choose which stories to
believe. I think evidence shows that Kerouac had homosexual experiences but
did not define himself as a homosexual, as Ginsberg, who had heterosexual
experiences, did.
My second point. The sexual orientation of the beats developed prior to
Stonewall, the "birth" of gay liberation in the sixties. Thus the
experiences, and opinions, of the beats about homosexuality are common with
the era, 40/50's, in which they grew up and became adults. I would think it
would not be unusual for a young person in Lowell to repress any homosexual
feelings/identity as maybe Kerouac may have done. Jus some thoughts,
Jack Gregorio, Denver
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:30:36 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality and love love love
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Has anyone ever proposed marriage on Beat-L?
Seems like people do everything else.
I'm serious. Has it ever happened?
Maggie (unmarried, by the way, and not looking to change)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:38:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
In-Reply-To: <025151530041418UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:28 PM 1/19/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Mike wrote:
>
><<Whether or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
>another topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
>those who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
>interested in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
>pertaining to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
>the relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
>(Albeit, beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.>>
>
>This couldn't be better stated by anybody. right on Mike <laughing
>mightily>. ciao, sherri
(Sherri, I would like to take credit for it but those lines were written
by the below-mentioned author John Hashbrouck, Lurkmeister, a new wit
appearing with the group. I just added the little bit on the end. Mike Rice)
>
>I won't discuss this any furthur.
-JOHN HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
Please don't break the harmony of this list by mentioning anything
this interesting again. But if you would be good enough to send it
to me privately, I certainly wouldn't object.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:43:49 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thanks for the correction. I've loved John's posts for years. I wish he would
lurk less and post more. I'd trade one John Hasbrouk for 20 Julian Rucks!
James
IDDHI wrote:
> In a message dated 19-Jan-98 8:46:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> love_singing@MSN.COM writes:
>
> << Mike wrote:
>
> <<Whether or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
> another topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
> those who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
> interested in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
> pertaining to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
> the relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
> (Albeit, beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.>>
>
> This couldn't be better stated by anybody. right on Mike <laughing
> mightily>. ciao, sherri
>
> >>
>
> Sherri, James, anyone else who's confused: Marvelous Mike Rice did not author
> this. It was the facetious brilliance of John Hasbrouck, long obscured by
> repeated snippings and respondings. He made me laugh out loud, so I thought
> I'd just make sure he got the credit for that. Hasbrouck, tongue in cheek
> comic relief on What Is Beat and should be discussed on the list. The rest of
> us bow in reverence and snicker into our hands.
>
> Let us pray we get more stuff like this when we need it. Amen.
> Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:48:25 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality and love love love
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Well with all the private posts that have been accidently posted to the
list by subsequently redfaced posters, I expect a marriage proposal to
appear soon--except that matrimony isn't very beat. Certainly have been
some invitations to share intimacies that in another era would have
required a marriage proposal.
James
IDDHI wrote:
> Has anyone ever proposed marriage on Beat-L?
>
> Seems like people do everything else.
>
> I'm serious. Has it ever happened?
>
> Maggie (unmarried, by the way, and not looking to change)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:40:50 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
Maggie wrote:
<<Sherri, James, anyone else who's confused: Marvelous Mike Rice did not
author
this. It was the facetious brilliance of John Hasbrouck, long obscured by
repeated snippings and respondings.>>
thanks Maggie. whoever wrote that deserves major, major kudos. yes and let
us PRAY for MUCH more of this kind of posting!!!!
ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:08:52 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: whats funny
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you know whats funny, the image of jack and allen, probably stoned after
a party , jacking each other off is beautiful to me. My sexuality
issues aren't the same as many but i never really got "dirty jokes. I
didn't find the thought of "it" hilarious, i am also not too keyed into
rather the boys got the facts straight when they told their tales,
because i know they didn't. they all three recreated the facts to fit
the fables that were in their wild and future visions of the now. Yet
they , to me kept the tales straight. William took some strange small
leeway with the history of typhoid mary that i couldn't figure out why,
but he was confortable doing it, it served some sort of purpose, like a
magic oil to the word/idea flow. He also would crab about the universes
that both jack and allen created, so close to his yet not. Jack gave
william a trust fund, probably to represent the support that william
recieved from his not really understanding family, which might have
reflected the feeling about family support that tortured jack. One of
the beauties of allen is his glee in playing bouncy bouncy, ( as we call
it here at the beat hotel) but i am sure that there was a line that
allen crossed that reflected the christian thought , to think a deed is
the commission of the act. so i am sure that the stories aren't
straight but they are true.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:43:35 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Cassady & Zen
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
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mike rice wrote:
>
> Was Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
> of the TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
>
> It occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
> Kerouac and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
> to write an essay on this topic?
>
> -JWH
cassady prayed with his family in their living room along with the tv.
corose was apparently there at least once and thought it was corney.
somebody described the prankster trip as being irish catholic macho with
all the machines and stuff
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:29:58 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> So, thank you and my apologies for any misinterpretation of what I said.
>
> -Greg
>
i am sorry if i sounded too harsh, it wasn't my intention. i was just
trying to point out that you should never take things for granted,
especially if they come from your tv. (i'm sorry, i just have dislike
television deeply).
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 01:02:08 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <199801200409.WAA05912@core0.mx.execpc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I was at a poetry reading in Chicago's Old Town 25, maybe 30 years ago.
While Corso was reading, he, in his own inimitable form of patter, was
directing comments to and trying to pick up a long-haired blond in the
front row. Finally, the blond responded by telling Corso that he was a man
not a woman. Corso, who was quite wasted by liquor or drugs, answered that
this was not a deterrent because he liked boys too.
Another thing to bear in mind too is that Burroughs had quite disparaging
things to say about "faggots." Part of the reason for this can be traced
back to Whitman. Like Walt, Burroughs and Ginsberg rebelled against the
stereotype of the limp-wristed, lisping, hair-stylist or
interior-decorator figure whose most common comment would be "Get her!"
Instead, like Whitman, they saw the possibility of a robust, manly if you
will, homosexual rather than the weak, silly, and shrieking "faggot"
Burroughs so often caricatures.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Jym Mooney wrote:
> A point to keep in mind on all of this sort of thing...
>
> A friend of mine who is a big Ginsberg fan once pointed out to me after
> reading one of the Ginsberg biographies that a great many of Ginsberg's
> personal anecdotes (particularly about noteworthy people) end the same way:
> "...and then we went to bed together."
>
> When told that Ginsberg claimed that he and Corso had been lovers, Corso
> was said to have laughed, "That Ginzy! He'll say anything!"
>
> Keep smiling...
>
> Jym
>
> ----------
> > From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
> > To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
> > Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 6:12 PM
> >
> > In a message dated 98-01-19 16:19:17 EST, donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU (Donald G.
> Jr.
> > Lee) write:
> >
> > << But didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand? >>
> >
> > You mean this literally, right? I remember hearing that Kerouac and
> Ginsberg
> > would, at the end of a long night of partying, jerk each other off, I
> guess is
> > the best way to say it. Actually, I think AG was the one that said that.
> I'm
> > not positive though, so don't quote me on it.
> >
> > --Stephanie
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:15:13 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Kudos to Hasbrouck
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thank you john for bringing back a sense of how good this list can be
once a blue moon
and used to be more, or I romanticize.
Bring back the elf abuse.
Trade you 1 John Hasbrouck post for 20-50 or whoever you want to put in
that blank.
And QR Hand kicked ass at the Forked Tongue in San Francisco last night
. . .but that's another story.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:15:27 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Last call for material
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hello,
If you publish zines, poetry, chapbooks, or anything, DHARMA beat lists and
publicizes it in our STUFF page. We are a Jack Kerouac newszine, and always
looking for new stuff that we can tell our readership about.
We are also looking for any Kerouac related news item such as: readings,
events, movies, books, conferences, (like if you are going to have a Poetry
reading on his Birthday in March -hint hint), let us know and we'll publicize
it in out calender.
please e mail me and I will give you a street address to send it to (to make
sure I get it in time),
thanks and enjoy, now back to what you were doing...
Attila
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/dharmabeat.html">DHARMA beat, A
Jack Kerouac newszine</A>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 05:03:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thom Colahan <rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980118192805.75679B-100000@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, Sara Feustle wrote:
> Well said!!! I totally agree. Kerouac took a language that so many across
> the world do not regard as beautiful and showed everyone just how
> beautiful it can be. --Sara
>
> On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, sherri wrote:
>
> > to my mind Kerouac captured the beauty and music of 20th century American
> > English like no one before or sense. the images, tone, rhythm, alliteration
> > are amazing. i can understand someone not liking his poetry, but i can't
> > understand someone saying he's no poet. most of his prose has a great deal
> > of poetic language use.
> >
> > ciao, sherri
>
I couldn't agree more. When i first read Kerouac i was total taken
aback i had never seen the English language presented in such a freshly
unique way before. It is impossible to argue that Kerouac was no poet
unless one is willing to dismiss his prose as well. For to me his prose
was very poetic, and in my opinion there should not be many differances
between good poetry and prose.
Lindsay
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:32:41 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
Content-Type: text/plain
>The Dalai Llama came from a regime that was not
>democratic before his time, and not afterward. We
>only supported the tyranny of his backward country
>because it was a minor bulwark against communism.
>The Dalai Llama may muse in his writings about whatever
>he likes. His regime was a tyranny, a feudal system
>with him as a God-figure, a ridiculous little place
>that got a rude taste of the twentieth and maybe three
>previous centuries, when the Chinese Communists swept in.
>I imagine Kennedy stopped helping him because there was
>no way the Dalai Llama and his regime would ever be anything
>we could stomach anyway.
i am sorry, but i think you are completely off-base...a country that
refused to become violent in it's own defense was not the victim of a
"rude taste of the twentieth century"...they were not a backwards
country, if ever there was a country anywhere near a spiritual utopia,
this was it...the primary goal of all citizens was enlightenment...
>Haille Selassie was lionized by the non-axis
>West for years because he opposed Mussolini. But Haille
>Selassie was himself a tyrant.
ah, but do you realize, that mussolini was the greatest ruler that italy
ever had?...look into it...to us, he was a tyrant...to a great many of
them, a man with vision...he did anything and evrything for his country,
if our president did that, he would be a hero in our eyes...
mussolini turned the swamplands throughout italy into the beautiful
country of today...
don't be so quick to judge...-julian
ps, i know this is not beat related...
but...when all else fails...conform...
"he loved big brother"
-last words of "1984", by george orwell
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:36:05 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac
Content-Type: text/plain
>
>I've only read On The Road. A jealous Truman Capote called
>it typing, but it is poetry. Ginsberg called Jack's writing
>poetry. I seem to recall Jack talking about "Dean, Dean, Dean
>that God Damn Dean,." Years later I picked up the echoes in it
>from Kipling's Gunga Din. On The Road has a poetic voice
>all the way through. Especially poetic is the ecstatic
>language about Dean Moriarty. I always wondered if Dean's
>last name was dragged out of Sherlock Holmes. Moriarty was
>Holmes' nemesis, though that wouldn't seem to have anything
>to do with Dean.
>
>M
all throughout "on the road", there is a meter...it changes...speeds
up..and slows down...(an example of this is when they visit jazz
bars...personally, i flew through those pages...it all seemed to go just
as fast as if i was experiencing it...
i think in asking whether or not kerouac was a poet we should first
ask..."what is a poem"?
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:29:32 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: back and beat
Content-Type: text/plain
hi first of all apologies to list: until they fix my email account, all
messages should be sent off list to country@sover.net, or i will have to
spam list for all replies. i can't make this mailer work very well.
but to answer yr question, maggie, i live in VT: it's a 4 day 3 night
trip cross country. once you leave out of chicago on the california
zepher with the observation/party car and good company it's a great
trip. chicago to montpelier sucks.
mc
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Mon Jan 19 20:41:21 1998
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>Message-ID: <a694bd63.34c42a08@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:37:18 EST
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
>Subject: Re: back and beat
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Marie, where do you live? Don't mean to be snoopy but I was kind of
wondering
>how long a journey this was for you, and whether you'd been to SF
before.
>
>maggie
>
______________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:37:30 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: abject apologies for spam
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hey guys, could you send my mail to country@sover.net, my real isp
connection? they are idiots, but they're my idiots. it will take a while
to get back on, and hotmail gets all messages delivered to
country@sover.net.
it just makes backchanneling difficult among other matters.
thanks
still delirious.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:35:03 PST
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From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: back and beat
Content-Type: text/plain
welcome back yrself dave. mail me at country@sover.net when you get a
chance.
marie
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Mon Jan 19 21:29:43 1998
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>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:09:37 -0600
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>From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
>Subject: Re: back and beat
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>IDDHI wrote:
>>
>> Marie, where do you live? Don't mean to be snoopy but I was kind of
wondering
>> how long a journey this was for you, and whether you'd been to SF
before.
>>
>> maggie
>
>marie lives in outer mongolia
>
>dbr
>
______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:49:56 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Dear Sara
It was never my intention to rip anybody whatsoever. It is not in my
nature. I was making a comment in the hopes that people reading these posts
would realize that responding to their knee jerks can make them look foolish
at times, as did I when I made a comment without knowing fully what and how
the discussion had been proceeding. The last statement of that post was sorta
in the form of a not very good Zen koan- only wanted to make people think.
Sorry if anyone was offended.
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:15:22 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel <thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization: None
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?! - FLexistentialism
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Peace 2 All
Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> Stephanie: Sorry, the Zucchini thing threw me off.:) Yeah, that guy was an
> interesting one.
So you're glad I didn't leave the list then? One shouldn't jump to
conclusions,
or was it just wishful thinking? I promise it'll get even more
interesting.
BTW: I like passionate people. I see myself as passionate too, or was
it hostile?
Anyway, I did think about leaving the list but when I read how much fun
y'all had, I just couldn't do you the favor.
It was with growing amazement I saw the reactions to the 'no
poet'-thing.
But then, saying J.K. is 'no poet' on a Beat-list really is just asking
for trouble.
Actually, when I wrote that post, I was stoned. There's only one
advantage to living
in Belgium: it's next to Holland. However, this is NOT an excuse. I
made a poor choice of words. What I was trying to say was: _I_ don't
see J.K. as a _poet_ simply because I've only read a few poems by him
and all I can remember is that I wasn't really impressed. To me, he was
mainly a prose writer (few prose has been written that took
my breath away like the 1st time I read OtR). Now, I agree with
Stephanie when she says his prose was pretty 'poetic' (rhythm is
important). Sara, it touched me to see how passionate you reacted but
don't you think that everybody's allowed to an opinion?
Bruce Hartman says it all: ...the only thing anyone can agree on... is
that nothing can be agreed upon.
I have as much a right to say he isn't a poet TO ME, as you have to say
he is a poet TO YOU. Do try and get your facts straight: I NEVER said I
'hated' his poetry, how could I feel so strongly about something I admit
not really knowing?
And if we were to start a discussion on when prose is really more
poetry, I sure wouldn't participate cos I don't need/want to see
differences between prose/poetry.
If you read a poem that leaves you speechless or you read a book that
you just can't put away & when finished has you aching for more, what's
the difference? If it touched your heart, it must've been worthwile.
We're all unique individuals, so we can't expect something to touch each
& everyone of us as deep/at all. Just as Buddhism was important
to Jack, Cayce was to Neal (the Cassady's even had a cocker spaniel
named 'Cayce').
I will however try and think for a minute before I speak (tho I
definitely am not the only one making this mistake) in the future.
No hard feelings, I hope
Thomas
_L'important, c'est pas la chute, c'est la terrissage_
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Zucchini4 wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 98-01-19 18:09:42 EST, you write:
> >
> > <<
> > Who the hell is Stephanie? The dude that purported that Kerouac was "no
> > poet" was some guy named Thomas who subsequently got pissed and left the
> > list because I and several other people suggested that he read Mexico City
> > Blues, Book of Blues, Scattered Poems and Pomes all Sizes, and THEN see if
> > he still hated Kerouacs poetry... It was actually rather amusing...:)
> >
> > Sara Feustle
> > sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> > Cronopio, cronopio? >>
> >
> > Oh, hi, I'm Stephanie. After that guy Thomas said whatever it was he said, I
> > replied that although I had read very little of Kerouac's poetry, I was
"less
> > than impressed" (I think were my exact words.) I find his prose to be a
little
> > more "poetic" :) I do intend on finding some of his spoken word (I haven't
> > actually *heard* much beat poetry at all), especially since everyone here on
> > this list thinks it's so important.
> >
> > And yeah, when Thomas left... that was kind of funny. But if you read that
> > "Nirvana" post of his, you knew it would be coming. Very very hostile...
> >
> > --Stephanie
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:34:36 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: re; tone
Comments: cc: sfeustl@uofto2.utoledo.edu
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Sara:
i get my list in digest form--these threee were all in a row. it sounds
to me like you are presenting a bit of a defensive attitude, and that's
what people are referring to when they asked julian to 'tone' down his
words when he asks the rest of us to stick to beat subjects. ON THe list
We only appear to be what our words represent us as. Please re-read the
following and try to objectively think what you would think of a person
who said the following things:
(btw, i do not think that timothy was trying to make fun of julian and
the gulf war thing--i think he felt that maybe he could provide julian
with a better understanding of that world issue--as julian if i am
correct was just 12 years old when the war broke out, and these are
repercussions, extremely serious ones for all other countries, of that
war.)
objectively yours
cathy
> Subject:
> Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
> Date:
> Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:06:41 -0500
> From:
> Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
>
>
> Jesus fucking Christ, people... This list is so non-Beat 90% pf the time,
> it makes me fucking sick. Maybe 2 out of ten messages are worth a damn,
> the rest is drivel. Silly me, I stay on the list for those two out of ten
> posts. And Timothy, I don't think you have any right to fuck with Julian
> like this. HE HAS A POINT!!!! It's true! Most of the posts on this list
> are about as beat as Martha Stewart!!!!! Julian, e-mail me, and we can
> discuss the literature in depth, which is the reason that aI joined this
> damn list in the first place! Thank God David's back, Dave, I missed your
> insight!!!!!
>
> On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> > Attention Julian Ruck
> >
> > I believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
> > when george bush was preisident.
> >
> > The war was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
> > neighboring country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
> > historically their territory.
> >
> > A United Nations coalition, led by the US, then fought militarily to retake
> > Kuwait back from the Iraqi army who had overrun and occupied Kuwait.
> > Saddam Hussein was villified and criticized, sometimes called the punnish
> > So Damn Insane by those who didn't like him.
> >
> > One of the consequences of the Iraqi defeat was that a UN agreement that
> > Iraq would allow UN inspectoators in to their country and various plants to
> > inspect to make sure no weapons were being produced that violate UN
> > treaties.
> >
> > That is apparently the crux of the problem today in that Hussein does not
> > want to fufill his part of the UN agreement concerning the UN inspectors.
> >
> > So Julian, thanks for bringing this topic up and asking about it. I never
> > would have mentioned it or thought about it if you hadn't asked.
> >
> > I hope this answered all your questions and am glad to help you out, but I
> > think maybe you should stick more to discussing the beats when on the list.
> >
> > But hey whatever you want!!!
> >
>
>
> Subject:
> Re: "Tone"
> Date:
> Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:11:06 -0500
> From:
> Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
>
>
> > That's all. Don't turn this into some silly call against censorship. I'm
> not a
> > nazi, I'm not an asshole.
> >
> > And by the way, Ginsberg's Poetry and a post on a listserv asking people to
> stop
> > discussing non-Beat subjects is not a logical ananlogy.
>
> Hmmmm... re-read that sentence, and tell me if it make any
> sense...
>
>
> Subject:
> Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
> Date:
> Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:16:55 -0500
> From:
> Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
>
>
> I take it you haven't read any of his poems, then!!! You need to read
> Mexico City Blues, Scattered Poems, Pomes All Sizes and Book of Blues
> IMMEDIATELY. If you still believe that Jack Kerouac was not a good poet,
> get help. --Sara
>
>
> > but that's it). Jack Kerouac was no poet either. That is: I've never
> > read any (good) poem by him.
> >
> > L8R
> > Thomas Van
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:32:51 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Just because Jack Kerouac was screwed by Gore Vidal
in 1952 is no reason to think that either was homosexual.
And the fact that a drunken Kerouac later shouted
_I blew Gore Vidal!_ in a bar certainly doesn't mean he's queer.
And so what if Jack and Allen jerked off together?
Can't a regular guy get off with his buddy without
being called a faggot?
I mean....that would mean that....
Never mind.
Ordinary mind.
First thought.
Second thought.
>From my top 10 favorite Kerouac quotes:
(regarding homosexuality) _...blow jobs, but no assholes..._
Another, from VANITY OF DULUOZ:
_and what's all this about men loving men???_
Is it a crime to
be in one's prime?
-JOHN HASBROUCK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:34:47 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Biblio
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:05:24 EST from <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>
Dear Bill, I'm sending a flyer describing the MLA award by snail mail. You can
find additional information on the MLA's web page -- www.mla.org. There's a s
ub-directory for awards. New Orleans was great -- weather and food wise. I wa
nted to go over to Algiers to take a picture of WSB's house but didn't make it
because it poured cats & dogs on Monday, the day I had planned my little ferry
ride across the Mississippi. What did you think of that hatchet job Latham did
on Allen in the NYT Magazine? I wrote a brief protest letter. Don't know if
they'll bother to publish it. Take care. As Ever, Bill.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:45:54 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Oops!
My apologies to the list. Obviously, I meant that last message for Bill Morgan
not for the list. Must remember to check those headers.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:25:38 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Biblio
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> Bill Gargan wrote:
> What did you think of that hatchet job Latham did
> on Allen in the NYT Magazine?
> Can you elaborate on this? Which issue of NYT Magazine?DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:10:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "john v. omlor" <omlor@PACKET.NET>
Subject: Annoying request for unsub info...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sorry about this, but I need to do some travelling and have lost the
unsubbing info for this particular list. I don't know who to send a
private request to so I was hoping someone would be kind and send me the
info so I can unsub for a time.
Thanks,
--John
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:11:31 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: the absolutely last version
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while in california, leon was kind enough to introduce me to an
incredible poet-jazzman, QR Hand, who was also kind enough to work
through the awkward parts of the monster insomnia quartet.
it's now ready for prime time (sans typos, i hope)
so here goes:(again, best is centered)
IN SOMNIA QUARTET
I
PART ONE:
DAY FOUR: In Somnia
In Somnia
is the place i inhabit
each autumn up here in north country.
In Somnia,
time changes:
clocks run backwards
as
fast as ahead
and collide,
like two perfectly balanced arrows
two exquisitely aimed arrows
meeting in mid flight -
time
collapses.
I've tried
doctors pills,
herbal remedies,
warm milk!
relaxation, meditation
chants!
(and furtive readings from the =91self help=92
corner of local bookstore )
no sleep
anguish
until, 96 hours into
black night slowly
inching toward dawn,
i look out my window
and
see the first snow
of autumn.
I watch the snow fall
and muse upon my hepatitis C,
a life line without guarantee-
a reminder of mortality.
I
would like to think
the gods are smiling on me,
giving me more time
to store up against an early death:
so charged am i,
electrified,
vowels-
consonants-
metaphors-
VOICES
ring in my head,
and I spend time with poets
who would rather
stay dead:
Woolfe, Sexton, Plath
(I've often wondered if I'd follow your path),
or Dylan Thomas
or Jack Kerouac,
one can drown in water, or in wine,
nothing sublime about that.
is it an affliction,
these extra hours,
dark, quiet, soft snow falling
or gift?
(these extra hours
dark, quiet, soft snow falling)
I wonder and wander
in the dark, quiet, snow falling
hours as the horizon point is touched by flame
I=92m still awake
when daybreak changes snow to rain
snow washed away
in to the rain
I=92m still awake
I=92m still awake
I=92m still awake
~~~~~~~~~~~~
II
FLASHBACK: 1993
(Imploding marriage)
lately I just keep waking
lately I just keep waking alone
in the black of night
I breathe shallow I wear earphones
not to wake you.
3 am, 4 am,
mind
wanders and stumbles,
stuck in the valley of consciousness,
black timelessness,
where there is no tomorrow.
i tire of endless stifled silence,
i choose instead to merge with the blackness-
listen to the fire blazing in my ears
and break free!
passion bursts in my ears!
and turning,
turn up the volume on the
sobbing
stereo
wailing!
I make my choice
light the candle
shed my
clothes
and let my hips find their own rhythm-
scarf in hand,
flung!
swirls, settles on lamp
as i dance,
shadow-cast.
In the midst of a hurricane,
a halcyon dance.
Go away if it bothers you, in fact
please go away.
It=92s the blackness you see
the blackness and me
everybody nobody knows about me
nobody everybody
knows about me
the song
the vigil
the darkness in me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
III
DAY FIVE: DANCE
In camp light,
all others ringed round the fire asleep,
I steal the ceiling of stars, sleepless,
cold, and needing a blanket for comfort,
I sit and bend towards the flames
until
firelight warmth
is blown away
by
great gust of cold, then icy fire:
he appears
my wolf,
angst,
anima,
lover--
as the firelight
turns to music-
sweat raises to shoulders-
and muscles obey!
running electric alive currents!
we embrace
and dance
in firey icy dervishness:
my
adversary
brother
lover
killer
life giver,
we dance...
IV
NIGHT SEVEN: IN DREAMLESS NIGHTS
In dreams, I remember flying
-the freedom
-the altitude
-my shadow cast on the hill scapes-
feathers delineated in shadow shapes
wingspread wide and proud.
I no longer dream of flying,
I no longer dream at all.
(I hail from the country of In Somnia
I=92m only here to gather some ingredients:
bane of darkness
wort of light
bones of a robin)
Laid awake for so many of my days
the return to the land of sleep
and the company of sleepers
seems an impossibility
so
i choose to live in my palace
created by madness
and peopled by imagination-
who is to say whose reality is which?
still,
i pray for my dream weaver
where I lie,
invisible to the naked I
still and quiet in the darkest night of all,
until I see you approach,
dream weaver,
I see you pick up this paper,
blessed by tears and torn
by desperation,
I see you pick it up,
it feels good,
oh yes it does, so soft,
so pliable,
feel me,
i am in your pocket
i=92m here;
you awaken....
(c) marie countryman
oct. 24-30, 1997
revised 11/11/97
revised sometime in jan. 98
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:02:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: WSB bibliography
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980119213612.570971977B-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> hey all,
>
> I was browsing thru some library catalogs, and was wondering if anyone
> here has ever seen, or knows anything at all about, the following
> books:
>
> Garcia-Robles, Jorge. _La bala perdida: William S. Burroughs en
> Mexico, 1949-1952_. (Mexico DF: Ediciones del Milenio, 1995)
I don't know anything about the book, but wasn't somebody on the list
looking for just such information a while ago? No hope of finding them now
I suppose.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:28:51 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Oops!
HAHAHA! happens to the best of us, eh? ciao, sherri :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 8:35 AM
Subject: Oops!
>My apologies to the list. Obviously, I meant that last message for Bill
Morgan
> not for the list. Must remember to check those headers.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:18:15 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Biblio
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:25:38 -0800 from
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
The January 4th issue of the New York Times Magazine was devoted to
famous people who had died in the preceeding year. It was called "The
Lives They Lived" and it was supposed to contain tributes to those who
had passed on and had made a difference. Rather than list AG's
accomplishments, Latham decided he'd write about the Jack Melody car
chase. It was a breezy, sensational little piece similar in tone to the
article he had in New York Magazine a while back (The Murder That Gave
Birth to the Beats). Anyway, I thought it was inappropriate for a
"tribute" issue and wrote to the Times to say so.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:47:45 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Socialism or Death!--fidel, 1998.
In-Reply-To: <19980120123242.27688.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
SOCIALISMO O MUERTE!
FIDEL TELEVISED BY CNN
****mussolini turned the swamplands throughout italy into the beautiful
country of today... --Julian Ruck(1)***********************************
(1)
damnation! damnation!
damnation!
damnation! damnation!
damnation!
i think
the dark side
of capitalistic democracy is fascism,
each religion/politics has a terrible curse
(
ah la maledizion!, Rigoletto
)
no glen miller farewell blues! but giuseppe verdi
,
(they want to bust out of the kosmos--EP),
America is democracy
& fascism,
Ben Mussolini
was
a HERO and the
day after he was the
DEVIL and now are
we
sure there'snt fascists
in the world ?
(Thus Ben
and la Clara a Milano/
by the heels at Milano/
--EP) do u known a religion
that isn't politics (& vice versa?) Catholic, Buddhist, Fascism,
Nazism,
a day a guy can shot u w/out any reason, or can explode
yr head
Catholic, Buddhist, Fascism, Nazism, why stop?
You
are right the president
maybe a hero,
a poet
can be a hero,
whirling yr head
&
sucks u into the pain,
sucks
yr money, sucks yr soul
well, my window
looked out on the Squero where Ogni Santi
meets San Trovaso
things have ends and beginnings--ezra pound
save us,
save us,
save us!
damnation!damnation!
damnation!
---
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:39:12 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: the absolutely last version
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> while in california, leon was kind enough to introduce me to an
> incredible poet-jazzman, QR Hand, who was also kind enough to work
> through the awkward parts of the monster insomnia quartet.
> it's now ready for prime time (sans typos, i hope)
> so here goes:(again, best is centered)
THIS IS BEAUTIFUL!
even made me feel better.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:00:10 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality and love love love
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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IDDHI wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever proposed marriage on Beat-L?
>
> Seems like people do everything else.
>
> I'm serious. Has it ever happened?
>
> Maggie (unmarried, by the way, and not looking to change)
has anyone ever made a prenuptial on the Beat-L? <grin> i have to
wonder if i've ever proposed anything serious on the Beat-L....hell, i
don't read what i type before i send it off - and only if some traffic
occurs do i look back and see what the fingers were toying with .... so
if i haven't yet proposed anything on the Beat-L, i'm pretty sure that
it's just a matter of time before my fingers shoot off their mouths in
that direction ...
definitely just a typist,
david
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:14:28 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Socialism or Death!--fidel, 1998.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> SOCIALISMO O MUERTE!
> FIDEL TELEVISED BY CNN
>
> ****mussolini turned the swamplands throughout italy into the beautiful
> country of today... --Julian Ruck(1)***********************************
>
> (1)
> damnation! damnation!
> damnation!
> damnation! damnation!
> damnation!
>
> i think
> the dark side
> of capitalistic democracy is fascism,
> each religion/politics has a terrible curse
> (
> ah la maledizion!, Rigoletto
> )
>
> no glen miller farewell blues! but giuseppe verdi
>
> ,
>
> (they want to bust out of the kosmos--EP),
> America is democracy
> & fascism,
> Ben Mussolini
> was
> a HERO and the
> day after he was the
> DEVIL and now are
> we
> sure there'snt fascists
> in the world ?
> (Thus Ben
> and la Clara a Milano/
> by the heels at Milano/
> --EP) do u known a religion
>
> that isn't politics (& vice versa?) Catholic, Buddhist, Fascism,
> Nazism,
> a day a guy can shot u w/out any reason, or can explode
> yr head
> Catholic, Buddhist, Fascism, Nazism, why stop?
>
> You
> are right the president
> maybe a hero,
> a poet
> can be a hero,
> whirling yr head
> &
> sucks u into the pain,
> sucks
> yr money, sucks yr soul
>
> well, my window
> looked out on the Squero where Ogni Santi
> meets San Trovaso
> things have ends and beginnings--ezra pound
>
> save us,
> save us,
> save us!
>
> damnation!damnation!
> damnation!
>
> ---
> Rinaldo.
I was expecting a rebuttal, Rinaldo! I'm just shocked you were so
passive in your retort.
david rhaesa (race)
salina, Kansas
(still looking towards denver)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:27:58 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: quote search
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
A week or so back someone posted the following quote by Burroughs: "All
agents defect, and all resisters sellout." Does anyone know the source?
Thanks,
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:20:19 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Note to Jeff Weinberg
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sorry for the spam folks, but when my mailbox blew up I lost Jeff
Weinberg's e-mail--
Jeff, could you please send it to me.
Thanks
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:24:33 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Luke Kelly <lpk@KDSI.NET>
Subject: Burroughs/Beat
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi everyone-- it's been a long time since I've posted anything to BEAT-L,
but I thought I'd mention a new toy on my bigtable.com site....
I've installed a new search engine that is indexing Burroughs-related
sites on the net. Based on reaction/use, I'll expand it to cover a
broader range of beat info.
If you have a minute, take a look-- http://www.bigtable.com/
Cheers!
Luke Kelly
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:34:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: KRUMMX <KRUMMX@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Poetry and Nonsense scribbling
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
ummm i was wondering if anyone on
the server had or knew of zines
that take poetry from anyone
since the zines ive tried so far
have been pretty anal
oh well thanx
seAn
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 06:30:00 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: BKA <atsushi@B022.AONE.NET.AU>
Subject: Which WSB book?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hi
A month back I saw an interview by Kathy Acker with WSB on video at the
library and have a quick question. I was wondering if anyone knows which
book he was talking about, at the end of the video.
Thanks
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:49:40 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble Question
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:16:33 -0800 from
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
It's surprising that there's so little on Kerouac as a Catholic writer
but you might want to take a look at Joy Walsh's "Jack Kerouac:
Roman Catholic conscience and the Body," THE REVIEW OF CONTEMPORARY
FICTION, 3, 2, (Summer 1983), 68-72, Richard Sorrell's "The Catholicism
of Jack Kerouac," STUDIES IN RELIGION SCIENCES (RELIGIEUSES: REVUE
CANADIENNE), 11, 2 (1982), 188-200, and chapter 16 ("The Beatific
Vision: J.P. Donleavy and Jack Kerouac) of AMERICAN CATHOLIC ARTS AND
FICTIONS: CULTURE, IDEOLOGY, AESTHETICS (Cambridge U.P., 1992) by Paul
Giles.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:15:25 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble Question
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
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Bill Gargan wrote:
>
> It's surprising that there's so little on Kerouac as a Catholic writer
> but you might want to take a look at Joy Walsh's "Jack Kerouac:
> Roman Catholic conscience and the Body," THE REVIEW OF CONTEMPORARY
> FICTION, 3, 2, (Summer 1983), 68-72, Richard Sorrell's "The Catholicism
> of Jack Kerouac," STUDIES IN RELIGION SCIENCES (RELIGIEUSES: REVUE
> CANADIENNE), 11, 2 (1982), 188-200, and chapter 16 ("The Beatific
> Vision: J.P. Donleavy and Jack Kerouac) of AMERICAN CATHOLIC ARTS AND
> FICTIONS: CULTURE, IDEOLOGY, AESTHETICS (Cambridge U.P., 1992) by Paul
> Giles.
didn't kerouac write for a catholic newspaper or
magazine......uh.........
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:01:09 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel <thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization: None
Subject: Re: Biblio
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Bill Gargan wrote:
>
> The January 4th issue of the New York Times Magazine was devoted to
> famous people who had died in the preceeding year. It was called "The
> Lives They Lived" and it was supposed to contain tributes to those who
> had passed on and had made a difference. Rather than list AG's
> accomplishments, Latham decided he'd write about the Jack Melody car
> chase. It was a breezy, sensational little piece similar in tone to the
> article he had in New York Magazine a while back (The Murder That Gave
> Birth to the Beats). Anyway, I thought it was inappropriate for a
> "tribute" issue and wrote to the Times to say so.
Is 'The Murder That Gave Birth to the Beats' the killing of Kammerer?
And what I would really like to know is:
What is the general tone of articles on the beatpoets nowadays? I hope
not all the magazines/newspapers only publish sensational pieces that
contain positive nor negative feedback but are just really fastfood.
How is the influence of the beats nowadays looked at?
I can remember A.G.'s death being nothing more than a footnote in the
Belgian press. W.S.B. was considered a little bit more important.
But then again, this is Belgium, and I don't think there is one English
literature class (college or uni) in Belgium that spends any time on
Kerouac, Burroughs or Ginsberg. It definitely has nothing to do with
the difference old skool/Am. English. BTW: English's our 3rd language.
So, do the U.S.A. know their classics?
And to what extent are the beats studied around American classrooms?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Tanx, Thomas.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:45:58 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: quote search
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Preston Whaley wrote:
>
> A week or so back someone posted the following quote by Burroughs: "All
> agents defect, and all resisters sellout." Does anyone know the source?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Preston
i tried several forms of searches at Bigtable database with no luck.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:49:50 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Kathy Acker
SF Bay Area Beats - in case you weren't aware, there will be a memorial for
Kathy Acker on Thursday, 1/22 at Slim's, 8pm. let me know if any of you are
going to go so we can hook up there. i'm told her ashes are to be set to
the winds here, not sure if that's part of the thing at Slim's or not...
ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:14:22 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: quote search
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
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re:
quote by Burroughs: "All
> > agents defect, and all resisters sellout." Does anyone know the source?
no, but i can paraphrase a quick leonard cohen poem:
every man has a way to betray the revolution
this is mine
(i think cohen is the most beat of contemporary writers not really
connected with them. his first poems were published in 1957. richard
farinia would be a second choice. does anyone know if farinia
associated with any of the beats?)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:14:48 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: back and beat
mc et other Beat Listers,
Let the tapes roll. Send 'em on. Anyone else who is recording your own poetry
and interested in getting some airplay in the central ohio wasteland (for what
its worth), feel free to contact me for details, in private would be best.
Thanks,
Dave B.
("Breithau@kenyon.edu")
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:23:52 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: "The Beat Generation" by Bruce Cook
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I just saw this book in the window of my neighborhood used book shop (the
store was closed so I couldn't examine it more closely). Has anyone read
this book? Is it significant/worth reading?
Thanks,
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:33:00 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: "The Beat Generation" by Bruce Cook
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:23:52 -0600 from
<jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
It was one of the earliest works on the Beat Generation. It's popular rather t
han scholarly. I'd recommend John Tytell's Naked Angels as a better introducti
on.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:50:55 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: "The Beat Generation" by Bruce Cook
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Haven't read his "Beat Book: but Bruce Cook does some nice detective fiction,
for
those of you with that vice.
James Stauffer
Bill Gargan wrote:
> It was one of the earliest works on the Beat Generation. It's popular rather
t
> han scholarly. I'd recommend John Tytell's Naked Angels as a better
introducti
> on.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:22:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality and love love love
In-Reply-To: <34C4F43A.35BB@midusa.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Jeez, has anyone ever had cybersex on here? Scary thought....
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> IDDHI wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone ever proposed marriage on Beat-L?
> >
> > Seems like people do everything else.
> >
> > I'm serious. Has it ever happened?
> >
> > Maggie (unmarried, by the way, and not looking to change)
>
> has anyone ever made a prenuptial on the Beat-L? <grin> i have to
> wonder if i've ever proposed anything serious on the Beat-L....hell, i
> don't read what i type before i send it off - and only if some traffic
> occurs do i look back and see what the fingers were toying with .... so
> if i haven't yet proposed anything on the Beat-L, i'm pretty sure that
> it's just a matter of time before my fingers shoot off their mouths in
> that direction ...
>
> definitely just a typist,
> david
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:28:04 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: "The Beat Generation" by Bruce Cook
Reply to message from WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU of Tue, 20 Jan
>
>It was one of the earliest works on the Beat Generation. It's popular rather t
>han scholarly. I'd recommend John Tytell's Naked Angels as a better introducti
>on.
>
>
I agree here. I had that book in my possesion once, but didn't read it.
The fact that while flipping through it I came across some statement about
Kerouac only having had two wives threw me.
Diane.
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:28:37 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Looking for these literary journals...
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
I know this is off topic, but I couldn't think of a better group of people to
ask...
If anyone could help me find these magazines, I would be very very thankful.
The Baffler
Open City (possibly also a publising company???)
Minus Times
I'm interested in finding the writing of David Berman, and he says he's a
regular contributer to all three. Thank you.
( and please reply privately so we don't clog everyone else's mailbox.)
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:53:04 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: love love love
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sara Feustle wrote:
> Jeez, has anyone ever had cybersex on here? Scary thought....
>
Happen all the time, just got to look for subtle clues.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:38:51 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Looking for these literary journals...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
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open city was an underground tabloid published by john bryant in LA in
the 1960s. they're really rare.
john bryant (bryan?....no, i think bryant) was publishing a similar
paper in san francisco a couple of years ago, though i can't think of
its name.
open city was the first place to publish bukowski, and it seems some of
his earliest stuff, maybe in the city lights anthology is about the
paper
?where did i read the story that bryant was a graphic artist somewhere,
and he was told to airbrush the baby jesus' balls off a classical
painting, so it could be used for a newspaper ad, and he said fukthishit
and started open city?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:24:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thom Colahan <rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <19980119122513.21876.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
> i will in fact e-mail you sara...
> its pretty bad when you have to start a "background" list because the
> foreground one can't stay on topic...
> -julian
>
> ps...to keep this post beat related...
> i was curious as to whether or not kerouac approved of "alternate"
> sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and "queer"
> more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
> meant to be derogatory or not...
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
I dont think the usage of the words fag or queer was meant as
dergogatory, one must understand that at this time society had not gone
through the changes resulkting from political correctness. At the time the
book was writtne, and in fact burroughs books as well, this was a common
term. Kerouac himself was never an admited homosexual he had experimented
on more than a few occasions. I read in a book called Angel Headed
hipster ( a biography of Kerouac) that Ginsberg had had his first sexual
experince with Kerouac, he basically jerked him off in an alley or
something like that. Kerouac never publically spoke of these experinces
but he did speak highly of gays, saying some of the greatest people to
have lived were gays, or those who made the biggest artistic impact.
Lindsay
p.s. am only new to the list Julien but i have to agree with you, its too
time consuming to have to sift through a bunch of mail that is not at all
beat realted, but i do enjoy alot of what people have to say so i will try
to stay up to date reading the mail and deleting stuff im not interested
in , etc.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:05:38 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980121001217.3913A-100000@freenet.nether.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Thom Colahan wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
>
> > i will in fact e-mail you sara...
> > its pretty bad when you have to start a "background" list because the
> > foreground one can't stay on topic...
> > -julian
> >
> > ps...to keep this post beat related...
> > i was curious as to whether or not kerouac approved of "alternate"
> > sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and "queer"
> > more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
> > meant to be derogatory or not...
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> I dont think the usage of the words fag or queer was meant as
> dergogatory, one must understand that at this time society had not gone
> through the changes resulkting from political correctness. At the time the
> book was writtne, and in fact burroughs books as well, this was a common
> term. Kerouac himself was never an admited homosexual he had experimented
> on more than a few occasions. I read in a book called Angel Headed
> hipster ( a biography of Kerouac) that Ginsberg had had his first sexual
> experince with Kerouac, he basically jerked him off in an alley or
> something like that. Kerouac never publically spoke of these experinces
> but he did speak highly of gays, saying some of the greatest people to
> have lived were gays, or those who made the biggest artistic impact.
> Lindsay
>
> p.s. am only new to the list Julien but i have to agree with you, its too
> time consuming to have to sift through a bunch of mail that is not at all
> beat realted, but i do enjoy alot of what people have to say so i will try
> to stay up to date reading the mail and deleting stuff im not interested
> in , etc.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:09:35 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980121001217.3913A-100000@freenet.nether.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Lindsay,
I completely disagree with you. I cannot help but read the following
statement by Sal in _On the Road_ without seeing his use of the word as
derogatory: "I'm no old fag like that fag . . ." (212). I can almost hear
the sneer in the passage.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Thom Colahan wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
>
> > i will in fact e-mail you sara...
> > its pretty bad when you have to start a "background" list because the
> > foreground one can't stay on topic...
> > -julian
> >
> > ps...to keep this post beat related...
> > i was curious as to whether or not kerouac approved of "alternate"
> > sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and "queer"
> > more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
> > meant to be derogatory or not...
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> I dont think the usage of the words fag or queer was meant as
> dergogatory, one must understand that at this time society had not gone
> through the changes resulkting from political correctness. At the time the
> book was writtne, and in fact burroughs books as well, this was a common
> term. Kerouac himself was never an admited homosexual he had experimented
> on more than a few occasions. I read in a book called Angel Headed
> hipster ( a biography of Kerouac) that Ginsberg had had his first sexual
> experince with Kerouac, he basically jerked him off in an alley or
> something like that. Kerouac never publically spoke of these experinces
> but he did speak highly of gays, saying some of the greatest people to
> have lived were gays, or those who made the biggest artistic impact.
> Lindsay
>
> p.s. am only new to the list Julien but i have to agree with you, its too
> time consuming to have to sift through a bunch of mail that is not at all
> beat realted, but i do enjoy alot of what people have to say so i will try
> to stay up to date reading the mail and deleting stuff im not interested
> in , etc.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 01:27:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thom Colahan <rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <01bd252d$bbaee800$1861e2cf@hartman>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Bruce Hartman wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Thank you, Race, for pointing out that I've turned off the lurk. . .
> let's just hope I can keep my head above water with the responses.
>
> I think this "Kerouac no poet" thread is great. The only problem I have
> are the knee-jerk responses. Sara's sticks out in my mind most of all
> (though I don't have it here to quote from) as being very emotional. Sure,
> poetry is emotional. . . but where's your proof of Kerouac's poetical
> greatness? It seems that the few who are agreeing with this thread are at
> least "putting up," while those who have challenged have responded with
> little more than a general tone of "Damn you, Blasphemer."
> Don't get me wrong, I love Kerouac's poetry--probably more so than his
> prose. One of the greatest things, I think, about Jack's poetry is that he
> shows us all that we, too, can be poets. There's nothing technical to it,
> it's easy to read and digest, even easier to listen to. However, these
> things alone, let's face it, don't make a person a poet.
>
> An short second-hand anecdote. . . While in college, a former English
> professor of mine (known hereafter as Rick) planned to give a thesis on
> Frank O'Hara, someone who I think most of us will agree is a poet. When he
> discussed it with his advisor, Rick was told to forget it, that the English
> department did not consider O'Hara a poet, much less a worthy subject of a
> thesis.
>
> What's the point I'm trying to make? I guess it comes down to this: in
> a world where things are becoming more relative by the day, the only thing
> anyone can agree on all of them time (it seems) is that nothing can be
> agreed upon. In the end, Rick did give his thesis on O'Hara and did
> remarkably well, even convinced his professor to take a second look. He
> didn't manage that by simply stating that O'Hara is a great poet simply
> because he said so, or having a crying jag in his professor's office. We,
> of all people, should be open to variances of opinion. . .
> Why do <i>you</i> think Jack's such a great poet?
>
> Bruce
>
Very valid point, although i believe i was one of the pones who
just stated in an emotional way that Kerouac was a poet. So i guess i want
to elaborate . I think Kerouac was a great poet because he was always very
straight to the point, he didnt have to use complicated methaphors or
create structurally complex works. He was able to capture the essence of
the languageand convey what he wished to say by simple structure and eeven
simple use of words. As you said Kerouacs poems are not difficult to
understnad or read, and i believe that they are great because they help to
make poetry reachable. In the introduction to Poems All Sizes Ginsberg
wrote of Kerouacs poetry:
" 'Till Kerouac as poet's understood, his formal verse beauty visible to
scholars, and his surprise mind tenderness taken straight-forwardly and
felt by vulneralbe Professors, the teaching of American literature'll
never get on the right track, a concious breath of U.S. poetry be
neglected, the nation won't exhale its own compassionate spirit, hordes of
literary bureaucrats will continue to snuffle shallow inspiration and new
generations'll be turned off to poetry except for individual chancein
finding this original Kerouac bookor works by Kerouac fellow traveler
poets...."
Thanks, Lindsay
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:58:17 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Liam Ferney <s341839@STUDENT.UQ.EDU.AU>
Organization: Student
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
IOTKQ wrote:
>
> Discuss this one hour from now on Kerochat!
> The topic tonight is Visions of Cody but that is basically a starting
> point....VOC is a poem, "only pages long"...discuss the merits of this. Go to:
>
> http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
> Click on the link for The Kerouac Quarterly Chat Room
> It will take you to Talk Cit, put in your nickname, (we suggest loading in
> the "lite" version, and it will be all set. Just type inand hit Enter.
>
> or, use your IRC, go to
>
> www.talkcity.com
> 6667
> #Kerochat See ya there! Paul....
> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
I realise this posting is well after the fashion but I've been away from
my computer for a couple of days and a statement like Kerouac not being
a poet really pisses me off. Granted not all of his poetry works but
when it does you can feel it kicking you so hard in the balls that you
find yourself bending over and grasping for breath. There are poems in
Mexico City Blues like this, S.F. Blues, Pomes all Sizes, Some of the
Dharma. Secondly Kerouac writes prose so good that it is poetry. It
captures the essence and purity of words in such a way that at that time
they cease to be prose they become instead part of that great rambling
grandiose poem of Amercian fiction, "The Dulouz Legend". And seriously
when Kerouac is on it he is so fucking on it that nobody is going to
stand within a hundred metres of him save a smattering of the great
writers. Just remember Kerouacs perfect prose, and it isn't all perfect,
when you say Kerouac's no poet.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 02:10:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980121001217.3913A-100000@freenet.nether.net >
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think terms like fag and queer are still valid, in spite of
political correctness. So are nigger, kike and coon. There is
a free speech issue. No matter how smooth things become, no matter
how smooth people think they are making things, racist, bigots and anyone
else must retain all rights to express themselves as awfully and freely as
they like. Like it or not, its the American way. Political Correctness is
against the American way, and will eventually fall by the wayside.
Mike Rice
At 12:24 AM 1/21/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
>
>> i will in fact e-mail you sara...
>> its pretty bad when you have to start a "background" list because the
>> foreground one can't stay on topic...
>> -julian
>>
>> ps...to keep this post beat related...
>> i was curious as to whether or not kerouac approved of "alternate"
>> sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and "queer"
>> more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
>> meant to be derogatory or not...
>>
>> ______________________________________________________
>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
> I dont think the usage of the words fag or queer was meant as
>dergogatory, one must understand that at this time society had not gone
>through the changes resulkting from political correctness. At the time the
>book was writtne, and in fact burroughs books as well, this was a common
>term. Kerouac himself was never an admited homosexual he had experimented
>on more than a few occasions. I read in a book called Angel Headed
>hipster ( a biography of Kerouac) that Ginsberg had had his first sexual
>experince with Kerouac, he basically jerked him off in an alley or
>something like that. Kerouac never publically spoke of these experinces
>but he did speak highly of gays, saying some of the greatest people to
>have lived were gays, or those who made the biggest artistic impact.
> Lindsay
>
>p.s. am only new to the list Julien but i have to agree with you, its too
>time consuming to have to sift through a bunch of mail that is not at all
>beat realted, but i do enjoy alot of what people have to say so i will try
>to stay up to date reading the mail and deleting stuff im not interested
>in , etc.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 01:31:59 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: my meeting with marie
Comments: cc: bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
hey all,
i'm so sorry i've taken so long to report on how the meeting in chicago
went with our own fair marie countryman went.
got home from chicago just last night, took me awhile to wade through
the three days worth of mail.
so here's how it went:
let's put it this way; she wanted to be 'poured on' the train, so
that's exactly what we did.
i was about a half hour late, but she was not hard to locate at all. i
recognized her backpack first. she had told me to look for one like
it. She was very very relieved to see me. when you think about it,
that would be understandable--hoping that the person you've been talking
to over the computer for the last few months actuaally makes it there.
We got her a hamburger,many many icehouse beers (TWice the alchohol as
regular beers, mind you) ANd just sat down and talked , discussed,
starting one thought even before we finished the one we were on. i kept
having to say 'oh yeah, in reference to that which we were talking about
just five minutes ago'. i started so many conversations with her, and
three hours was not enough to finish them all. there was not an awkward
moment at all, no silence. just a creative burst of the meeting of
minds.
she showed me some of her journal, the section she had been writing
about searching for me as i was running late. i signed her journal for
her, wrote a few scentences. she showed me the beads she had gotten in
california. i gave her a mix tape that i had dubbed off for her, and a
tape of timbuk 3's "FIELd guide"
she also got to meet a couple of friends of mine, jess and tim. she
took all of our pictures.
she also showed me some drawings she had done. they were very
haunting, very beautiful.
we had a great talk, and just as i predicted, three hours was definitely
not enough. her train was a little late pulling in, so we got a few
extra minutes. i have a most wonderful black and white portrait that i
took of her crouching against a wall there in the terminal. as soon as
i can get to a scanner, i will post it. she dosen't look bad for having
drank many beers in a very short period of time.
i left her at the gate, she by this time had made friends with a couple
college girls with big backpacks. i gave one last holler to her, and
gave her the peace sign right before i rounded the corner out of sight.
i walked out of there grinning from ear to ear because it had worked out
so very well.
i just wanted to let you all know that it went wonderfully, beautifully,
had a lot of fun. it was very strange to meet someone in this manner,
talking for two months on the net first then meeting face to face. but
like marie said we would--we knew each other right away.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 02:44:53 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: movies
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
does anyone know if WSB had a favorite movie? what was it? or if he
liked movies at all?
chad
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:34:40 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nicolai Pharao <nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I suppose I agree with mike on the anti-P.C. thing and freedom of speech issue,
but it is a dangerous one. Using these expressions in a derogatory way simply
perpetuates the same old hate that has been going around for centuries, holding
us locked in a constant fight over who gets the last shot, thereby not "seeing
whats on the end of every fork".
To do, as black (mainly hip-hop ?) culture in U.S., have done and taken over the
derogatory word themselves and turning it into a positive/casual word seems to
me an interesting attempt at cutting word lines so to speak.
Racists may have the right to be racist as well as homophobes may have the right
to be homophobic, but they are merely instruments of control refusing to open
their eyes and minds simply because they are afraid that what they would see
could hurt them.
" 'You see an animal you kill it, don't you ? Might've bitten one of the
boys!'....Contact THAT, connect with THAT, feeeelTHAT, and ask yourself: whose
life is worth more ? The badger's or this piece of white shit ?"
WSB from The Cat Inside
Nic
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:41:57 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: zines
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Here's an article on history of zines and the role of Beat small press in
setting the pattern for the trade. I lost the post which asked for info.
on particular contemporary zines, but I thought this might be of interest.
http://thetransom.com/chip/zines/resource/wright2.html#chap
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:10:54 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "James F. Wood 253-7886" <WOODJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU>
Subject: cybersex
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Cybersex on here???WOW Got for it
"The Old Hippie"
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:15:58 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: SPElias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 98-01-20 02:06:07 EST, you write:
<< Burroughs had quite disparaging
things to say about "faggots." >>
There are homosexuals who are "faggots", just like there are black/african
american/yes even white folks who are "niggers". Both of these terms can be
thought of as insulting, perhaps inflamatory; or we could take the Lenny Bruce
(a certified beat) approach and rob them of their power through their overuse
and abuse.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:39:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: cybersex
In-Reply-To: <E2515ZXFFBPCJA*/R=FIRNVX/R=A1/U=WOODJ/@MHS>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
*laughing hysterically* I wonder what Beat cybersex would look/sound
like.... On second thought, maybe I don't wanna know... *laughing harder*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, James F. Wood 253-7886 wrote:
> Cybersex on here???WOW Got for it
> "The Old Hippie"
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:45:28 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 1/20/98 10:07:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET writes:
> I dont think the usage of the words fag or queer was meant as
> dergogatory, one must understand that at this time society had not gone
> through the changes resulkting from political correctness. At the time the
> book was writtne, and in fact burroughs books as well, this was a common
> term. Kerouac himself was never an admited homosexual he had experimented
> on more than a few occasions. I read in a book called Angel Headed
> hipster ( a biography of Kerouac) that Ginsberg had had his first sexual
> experince with Kerouac, he basically jerked him off in an alley or
> something like that. Kerouac never publically spoke of these experinces
> but he did speak highly of gays, saying some of the greatest people to
> have lived were gays, or those who made the biggest artistic impact.
> Lindsay
>
> p.s. am only new to the list Julien but i have to agree with you, its too
> time consuming to have to sift through a bunch of mail that is not at all
> beat realted, but i do enjoy alot of what people have to say so i will try
> to stay up to date reading the mail and deleting stuff im not interested
Does this mean that you will be deleting passages unrelated to the issue of
who was jerking whose johnson?
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:44:43 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Looking for these literary journals...
Comments: To: tkc@zipcon.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Bryan first started the Open City periodical in San Francisco in San
Francisco then moved to Los Angeles. It was the first alternative free
weekly. It had Neal as its first cover story. The 201st issue of Open City,
a member of the Alternative Press Syndicate published in 1980 by Renaissance
Press, San Francisco, is a very interesting unauthorized biography of
Timothy Leary by John.
John Bryan was a free lance journalist before dropping out to start Open
City in San Francisco.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@zipcon.com>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: Looking for these literary journals...
>open city was an underground tabloid published by john bryant in LA in
>the 1960s. they're really rare.
>
>john bryant (bryan?....no, i think bryant) was publishing a similar
>paper in san francisco a couple of years ago, though i can't think of
>its name.
>
>open city was the first place to publish bukowski, and it seems some of
>his earliest stuff, maybe in the city lights anthology is about the
>paper
>
>?where did i read the story that bryant was a graphic artist somewhere,
>and he was told to airbrush the baby jesus' balls off a classical
>painting, so it could be used for a newspaper ad, and he said fukthishit
>and started open city?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:14:22 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Arthur Maynard <prinzhal@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: "The Beat Generation" by Bruce Cook
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 16:23 1/20/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I just saw this book in the window of my neighborhood used book shop (the
>store was closed so I couldn't examine it more closely). Has anyone read
>this book? Is it significant/worth reading?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jym
>
IMHO, yes. I also hear it's been re-issued.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:31:07 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: john boggs <jaboggs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: kerouac as poet
Content-Type: text/plain
I am two days new to beat-l and have been looking for somewhere to jump
into the discussion without disturbing the natural flow of conversation.
here goes, please forgive any faux-pas.
somewhat indirectly on the subject of whether jack kerouac was a good
poet, I was at the cleveland museum of art with a very good friend of
mine. we disagree vehemtly on the subject of modern art. he kept trying
to logically analyze pieces of contemporary art, with the result that it
was far inferior to the great masters of old. he, and many others, don't
realise art isn't a dialectical process, it's about feeling and
intuition. you either like it or you don't, and very often (especially
with 20th century art like picassso, gorecki and the beats) there is no
easy logical explanation.
it's only my opinion is that kerouac is a very good poet, perhaps even a
great one (like ginsberg or pound), but with an art as esoteric as
poetry is, an opinion is really all that matters... you can't write up a
mathematical proof to determine who's a good poet and who's not. as the
philosopher santayana said- it's more important to know what you like
than to know why you like it.
p.s. what on earth is cybersex? (i've only been online for four days and
am clueless about this)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:41:30 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Pull My Daisy (exposition, please)
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0e6f2b7d8e3@[128.125.227.33]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>Has anyone seen the movie "Pull My Daisy?" How is it?
amici,
i've the italian translation of a "pull my daisy" poem (not movie)
from the source poem written by Allen Ginsberg,
Jack Kerouac, Neal Cassady 1948-1950? 1961,
(...)
Pull my daisy
tip my cup
all my doors are open
Cut my thoughts
for coconuts
all my eggs are broken
(...)
the italian translation is very hardcore, ahem...
what it do means exactly "pull my daisy"?
---
saluti, Rinaldo. * a not competent beetle *
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:39:03 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: some sliced writings
In-Reply-To: <19980120123242.27688.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
#1. what's in my mind?
Shokkee <Shokkee@aol.com> wrote:
>
> A drunken man staggers in to a Catholic church and
> sits down in a confession box and says nothing.
>
> The bewildered priest coughs to attract his attention,
> but still the man says nothing.
>
> The priest then knocks on the wall three times in a
> final attempt to get the man to speak.
>
> Finally, the drunk replies: "No use knockin' mate,
> there's no paper in this one either."
---
#2. yesterday was 1968 or 1969?
I've decided to finally publish
correspondence I received from Charles
Manson...
---
#3. THE WORLD BOOK SALESMAN by Raymond Carver
He holds conversation sacred
though a dying art. Smiling,
by turns he is part toady,
part Oberfuhrer. Knowing when
is the secret.
Out of the slim briefcase come
maps of all the world;
deserts, oceans,
photographs, artwork--
it is all there, all there
for the asking
as the doors swing open, crack
or slam.
In the empty
rooms each evening, he eats
alone, watches television, reads
the newspaper with lust
that begins and ends in the fingertips.
There is no God,
and converstation is a dying art.
(c) Estate of Raymond Carver, 1989
(c) minimumfax@flashnet.it
---
#4. William S. Burroughs, member of the
American Academy and Institute of Arts
and Letters and Commandeur de l'Ordre des
Arts et des Lettres of France.
Jeff Taylor taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU writes the following passages
from WSB's preface to Mohamed Choukri's book _Jean Genet in Tangier_:
"[Genet said,] 'I'm neither Existentialist nor Absurdist. I don't
believe in such classifications. I'm only a writer, either a good one
or a bad one.' I have been equally impatient with such
classifications. Am I a Beat writer? a black humorist? and so on.
There is good writing and bad writing. Giving names in meaningless.
[...]
This shared conviction made it possible for Jean Genet and me to
communicate in Chicago despite my atrocious French and his
non-existent English. Had he considered himself an Existentialist or
an Absurdist, communication would have been impossible."
---
#5. WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS says (a word of warning)
Mary Maconnell wrote:
> any advice anyone can give a person not yet versed with Burroughs.
"
I saw a picture of a balloon suddenly and unexpectedly soaring
and some people still holding onto the ropes connected to the
balloon were suddenly jerked into the air and most of them
didn't have the survival IQ to let go in time. Second later they
are sixty, a hundred feet off the ground. Those who didn't let
go fell off at five hundred or thousand feet. A basic survival
lesson is: Learn to let go.
Put it another way: Never hang on when your Guardian tells
you to let go.
RIGHT NOW.
Suppose you were holding one of the ropes? Would you
have let go in time, which is, of course, at first upward yank?
I'll tell you something interesting. You qould have a much
better chance to let go in time now that you have read this
paragraph than if you hadn't read it. Writing, if it is anything,
is a word of warning...
LET GO!
"
---
#6. BEETLE BAILEY www.cartoon.org
IT SAYS HERE THAT
THE FORMULA FOR
COCA-COLA IS STILL
A SECRET
INTERESTING
BUT THE FORMULA FOR A BOMB
TO BLOW UP WHOLE CITIES IS
ON THE INTERNET
---
rinaldo
21/jan/98
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:29:25 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy (exposition, please)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-01-21 12:49:26 EST, you write:
> pull my daisy
Rinaldo--
nothing. as a concept it has no logical merit to those trying to find common
ground between this writer and that writer and this genre and human minds et
cetera.
"Tira la mia pratolina!" <--- thats it. in italiano, that's exactly what it
means.
what does your translation say?
--Ginny.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:05:00 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: movies
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 20-Jan-98 11:46:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Sadenigma@AOL.COM writes:
<< does anyone know if WSB had a favorite movie? what was it? or if he
liked movies at all?
chad >>
I'm guessing it was probably "Bambi," because of the guns and all. Anyone?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:48:45 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
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i sincerely doubt that ginsberg had his first gay experiance with
kerouac
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:06:20 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy (exposition, please)
In-Reply-To: <ca30c0fb.34c65aa7@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
rinaldo:
call me immature, perverted or whatever but i always (since a few monthes
ago wheni got the book) thought it was sexual. but then again, ginny, you
may be right
it is absurd. or as wsb quoted someone else "nothing is true. everything is
permitted."
randy
At 03:29 PM 1/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-01-21 12:49:26 EST, you write:
>
>> pull my daisy
>
>Rinaldo--
>nothing. as a concept it has no logical merit to those trying to find common
>ground between this writer and that writer and this genre and human minds et
>cetera.
> "Tira la mia pratolina!" <--- thats it. in italiano, that's exactly
what it
>means.
>what does your translation say?
>--Ginny.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:08:21 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Kirk A. Markus" <markus@ENDINFOSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-2022-jp
There is no doubt that Ginsberg had a huge crush on Kerouac and they were
spending alot of
time together when Ginsy was just starting at Columbia - probably 18 years old
at the time.
K was a very handsome man at that time. So I think it is very possible that
Kerouac might
have been the first.
Also, Neal Cassidy was Ginsy first real love and Neal messed around with him on
several
occasions but did not return his "true love." It took a long time for G to get
over him and I
don't think he found a true love until Peter Orlovsky.
Read Ann Charters "Kerouac" bio and "Angel Headed Hipster" or Nicosia "Memeory
Babe"
for more.
Kirk A. Markus
"All that is gold does not glitter;
not all those that wander are lost."
--J. R. R. Tolkien
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:35:49 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: movies/Chapaqua
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Nothing to do what WSB's favorite movies are/were, but
_Chapaqua_ is now in release (movie w/ cinematography
by Robert Frank, and stars Ginsberg, Orlovsky, Burroughs,
Monk, etc.). It was a 1966 (65?) release and won an Italian
film award. Check out your video stores. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:45:42 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: cybersex
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Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> *laughing hysterically* I wonder what Beat cybersex would look/sound
> like.... On second thought, maybe I don't wanna know... *laughing harder*
well, honey , i take my sex pretty serious, don't find cyber sex too
hysterical or jerking off outlandish,i remember phone sex fondly, but
most of it for me is fun and a real grind. I asked william about his
sex life in his late 70's and he said
"well usually when the matter comes up, by the time i get on the phone
and the opportunity is there it doesn't matter anymore". Of his
reaction to my blessed promiscuity (that i much enjoyed) he was neither
judgemental or at all interested. I heard once when he was describing
me to someone, he said with a thin lipped smile, well she is very
popular with the gentlemen. He was much more interested in the fact
that my word was very good, a developed sense of humor, (he also liked
people to cook) and that while i was a self determined Bitch, i did not
do underhanded or mean things. Once i decided to marry i never had a
moment that it wasn't easy to be faithful, before i was married and
before aids came in the picture i usually took a new lover every month
or so and kept some of the old ones for over twenty years. It is a
different time. The miracle of my happily spent youth was i never got a
sid. well the crabs once. could all this be much more about my sex life
than any one ever wanted to hear. if so back channel the flames because
nonbeat flames actually don't have to be posted to the list.
I really laugh about when i asked william about his sex life, which i
never took his answer as the gospel but he did love my audacity at
times. William was much more elegant than i am, i am very gauche, but
actually becomming more civilized by the decade.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:55:22 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: kerouac as poet
MIME-Version: 1.0
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john boggs wrote:
>
> I am two days new to beat-l and have been looking for somewhere to jump
> into the discussion without disturbing the natural flow of conversation.
> here goes, please forgive any faux-pas.
>
> somewhat indirectly on the subject of whether jack kerouac was a good
> poet, I was at the cleveland museum of art with a very good friend of
> mine. we disagree vehemtly on the subject of modern art. he kept trying
> to logically analyze pieces of contemporary art, with the result that it
> was far inferior to the great masters of old. he, and many others, don't
> realise art isn't a dialectical process, it's about feeling and
> intuition. you either like it or you don't, and very often (especially
> with 20th century art like picassso, gorecki and the beats) there is no
> easy logical explanation.
>
> it's only my opinion is that kerouac is a very good poet, perhaps even a
> great one (like ginsberg or pound), but with an art as esoteric as
> poetry is, an opinion is really all that matters... you can't write up a
> mathematical proof to determine who's a good poet and who's not. as the
> philosopher santayana said- it's more important to know what you like
> than to know why you like it.
>
> p.s. what on earth is cybersex? (i've only been online for four days and
> am clueless about this)
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
i found your argument concerning Kerouac and poetics very well put.
as for cybersex - i'm clueless as well.....it seems to be
physiologically impossible and might create quite a mess on the computer
screen!
david rhaesa (race)
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:45:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: cybersex
In-Reply-To: <34C696B6.ED9@sunflower.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Actually, Patricia, that was really cool. I enjoyed reading that. I'm only
22, so I don't remember AIDS NOT being in the picture. I don't know about
most of my generation, but I'm careful. Man, that must have been fun...
Thanks for your anecdote. We early-twenty-somethings do have our share of
fun, but WOW, that must have been cool. I guess we haven't gotten more
promiscuous, we've just gotten weirder. *big grin*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Patricia Elliott wrote:
> well, honey , i take my sex pretty serious, don't find cyber sex too
> hysterical or jerking off outlandish,i remember phone sex fondly, but
> most of it for me is fun and a real grind. I asked william about his
> sex life in his late 70's and he said
> "well usually when the matter comes up, by the time i get on the phone
> and the opportunity is there it doesn't matter anymore". Of his
> reaction to my blessed promiscuity (that i much enjoyed) he was neither
> judgemental or at all interested. I heard once when he was describing
> me to someone, he said with a thin lipped smile, well she is very
> popular with the gentlemen. He was much more interested in the fact
> that my word was very good, a developed sense of humor, (he also liked
> people to cook) and that while i was a self determined Bitch, i did not
> do underhanded or mean things. Once i decided to marry i never had a
> moment that it wasn't easy to be faithful, before i was married and
> before aids came in the picture i usually took a new lover every month
> or so and kept some of the old ones for over twenty years. It is a
> different time. The miracle of my happily spent youth was i never got a
> sid. well the crabs once. could all this be much more about my sex life
> than any one ever wanted to hear. if so back channel the flames because
> nonbeat flames actually don't have to be posted to the list.
> I really laugh about when i asked william about his sex life, which i
> never took his answer as the gospel but he did love my audacity at
> times. William was much more elegant than i am, i am very gauche, but
> actually becomming more civilized by the decade.
> patricia
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:53:58 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: The linguistics of cybersex
In-Reply-To: <34C698FA.7646@midusa.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> i found your argument concerning Kerouac and poetics very well put.
> as for cybersex - i'm clueless as well.....it seems to be
> physiologically impossible and might create quite a mess on the computer
> screen!
>
> david rhaesa (race)
> salina, Kansas
>
*rolling on the floor* David, you really have a way with words!
And I have a very visual imagination. Ick. *laughing* I don't remember how
the whole cybersex topic came up... Was it me? Whoops... Oh, yeah, my sick
imagination was provoked by someone asking if anyone had ever proposed
marriage on Beat-L. I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.... how horrific,
impersonal and detached would Kerouac have found such a thing as
cybersex? I mean yeah, it can be fun... talk about using language in a new
and strange way. A whole new grammar, new syntax almost. *unbuttoning my
shirt* *just kidding* --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:46:54 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.4.01.980121160954.markus@sales1.endinfosys.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
dont think Kerouac had any homosexual experiences at all...
On Wed, 21 Jan
1998, Kirk A. Markus wrote:
> There is no doubt that Ginsberg had a huge crush on Kerouac and they were
> spending alot of
> time together when Ginsy was just starting at Columbia - probably 18 years old
> at the time.
> K was a very handsome man at that time. So I think it is very possible that
> Kerouac might
> have been the first.
>
> Also, Neal Cassidy was Ginsy first real love and Neal messed around with him
on
> several
> occasions but did not return his "true love." It took a long time for G to
get
> over him and I
> don't think he found a true love until Peter Orlovsky.
>
> Read Ann Charters "Kerouac" bio and "Angel Headed Hipster" or Nicosia "Memeory
> Babe"
> for more.
>
>
> Kirk A. Markus
>
> "All that is gold does not glitter;
> not all those that wander are lost."
> --J. R. R. Tolkien
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:05:08 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
> For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
> reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
wow, i didn't know we had someone who know jack from that time, how did
you know him or are you a scholar, is this information based on some
material that i can access.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:18:09 -0800
Reply-To: mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: eric mayhew <mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> >
> > For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
> > reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
>
> wow, i didn't know we had someone who know jack from that time, how did
> you know him or are you a scholar, is this information based on some
> material that i can access.
> patricia
this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit
eric
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:24:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: kerouac as poet
In-Reply-To: <34C698FA.7646@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:55 PM 1/21/98 -0600, you wrote:
>john boggs wrote:
>>
>> I am two days new to beat-l and have been looking for somewhere to jump
>> into the discussion without disturbing the natural flow of conversation.
>> here goes, please forgive any faux-pas.
>>
>> somewhat indirectly on the subject of whether jack kerouac was a good
>> poet, I was at the cleveland museum of art with a very good friend of
>> mine. we disagree vehemtly on the subject of modern art. he kept trying
>> to logically analyze pieces of contemporary art, with the result that it
>> was far inferior to the great masters of old. he, and many others, don't
>> realise art isn't a dialectical process, it's about feeling and
>> intuition. you either like it or you don't, and very often (especially
>> with 20th century art like picassso, gorecki and the beats) there is no
>> easy logical explanation.
>>
>> it's only my opinion is that kerouac is a very good poet, perhaps even a
>> great one (like ginsberg or pound), but with an art as esoteric as
>> poetry is, an opinion is really all that matters... you can't write up a
>> mathematical proof to determine who's a good poet and who's not. as the
>> philosopher santayana said- it's more important to know what you like
>> than to know why you like it.
>>
>> p.s. what on earth is cybersex? (i've only been online for four days and
>> am clueless about this)
>>
>> ______________________________________________________
>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>i found your argument concerning Kerouac and poetics very well put.
>as for cybersex - i'm clueless as well.....it seems to be
>physiologically impossible and might create quite a mess on the computer
>screen!
>
>david rhaesa (race)
>salina, Kansas
>
>
I can't believe noone knows about cybersex. When I first got on the net,
I had it all the time in chat rooms. That was just horny typing back and
forth about what you were going to do to her, and she back what she would
do to you. These days, with the little TV cameras, people are doing nude
shows with consenting picturecamera people over internet telephone and
video hookups. With 200 mhz of speed and a big modem and camera, you can
talk and see one another. I have a friend who does it, but not cybersex.
Cybersex is old hat, but it was sort of empty I remember. I haven't done
it since 1995.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:15:42 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Despite the fact that I think this is a rather silly thread, the idea that Jack
had
no homosexual experiences at all flies in the face of all the evidence. Jack,
especially when very drunk, would make it with men., He is the one that said
"Blow
jobs, but no assholes". Jack strikes me as primarily heterosexual for sure, but
by
no means exclusively.
James Stauffer
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
> reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
> dont think Kerouac had any homosexual experiences at all...
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:19:46 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: cybersex (was Re: kerouac as poet)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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mike rice wrote:
> I haven't done
> it since 1995.
>
> Mike Rice
rumor has it that according to Divine law two years of abstinence makes
one a cyber-virgin all over again :)
gypsy davey
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:10:01 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Surubu1 <Surubu1@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hello. This is new hat to me...only first day on the list, so bear with me.
Just wondering if anyone has seen the poems Ginzy wrote in the months just
after Kerouac died. One in particular is titled "Memory Gardens" written in
October of 1969, and can be found in The Fall of America, 1972 by Allen. The
last stanza reads:
Well, while I'm here I'll
do the work --
and what's the Work?
To ease the pain of living.
Everything else, drunken
dumbshow.
I think this is quite obviously a reference to a passage from Visions of
Gerard (my personal Kerouac fave). It reads:
"I curse and rant nowaday because I don't want to have to work to make a
living and do childish work for other men (any lout can move a board from
hither to yonder) but'd rather sleep all day and stay it up all night
scrubbling these visions of the world which is onlyan ethereal flower of a
world, the coal, the chute, the fire and the ashes all, imaginary blossoms,
nonetheless, "Somebody's got to do the work-a the world"...
I don't know if Jack and Allen consummated their love; I say their love
because I feel that there was a definate love from both parties. Whether or
not that Jack's love was the same as Ginsberg's is something I'm not sure
we'll ever positively know. I doubt that it was the same. But, these poems
written in mourning make it clear to me that
Allen was in love with Jack all along.
Anyone have any further insights???
Sundee
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:43:11 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Surubu1 wrote:
> But, these poems
> written in mourning make it clear to me that
> Allen was in love with Jack all along.
my impression is that Allen had an enormous capacity to LOVE friends in
many different layers and depths and that the preoccupation with the
sexuality questions missed much of the power of love in this kind man.
gypsy davey
salina, Kansas
>
> Anyone have any further insights???
>
> Sundee
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:57:54 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
James Stauffer wrote:
<<the idea that Jack had no homosexual experiences at all flies in the face
of all the evidence. >>
it's also absurd to call a person who has had sexual experiences with
someone of the same gender a homosexual, based simply on that fact. many
men & women have such experiences and remain essentially heterosexual or
bisexual. people experience different types of love and also often just
want to experiment.
ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:48:16 -0800
Reply-To: mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: eric mayhew <mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
> Surubu1 wrote:
> > But, these poems
> > written in mourning make it clear to me that
> > Allen was in love with Jack all along.
>
> my impression is that Allen had an enormous capacity to LOVE friends in
> many different layers and depths and that the preoccupation with the
> sexuality questions missed much of the power of love in this kind man.
>
> gypsy davey
> salina, Kansas
> >
> > Anyone have any further insights???
> >
> > Sundee
It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the
ordinary man. Love was definitely a subjective understanding between
many of the beat generation people.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:49:07 -0800
Reply-To: mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: eric mayhew <mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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sherri wrote:
>
> James Stauffer wrote:
>
> <<the idea that Jack had no homosexual experiences at all flies in the face
> of all the evidence. >>
>
> it's also absurd to call a person who has had sexual experiences with
> someone of the same gender a homosexual, based simply on that fact. many
> men & women have such experiences and remain essentially heterosexual or
> bisexual. people experience different types of love and also often just
> want to experiment.
>
> ciao, sherri
i think you hit the nail on the head sherri.
eric
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:37:58 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thom Colahan <rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <34C60AC5.1088@zipcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Tom Christopher wrote:
> i sincerely doubt that ginsberg had his first gay experiance with
> kerouac
>
Just saying what i read decside for yourself, i dont believe i made it
up:)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:46:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thom Colahan <rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <34C6C574.235F@sunflower.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Read it in a book called Angel Headed Hipster like i said in my origanal
comment, i guess some of dont read very thoroughly.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:02:33 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thom Colahan <rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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For some reason i think a lot of people here have missed the point we are
all to caught up in paranoia and defending our actions/words that we are
unable to really be open to any kind of discussion. I hate to use the word
but such close-mindness is not very "beat". excuse the bloody cliche, how
can a discussion of beat topics or any topics exist when no one will
listen and i dont listen either so i will go back to talking to myself
about "beat realted topics" i listne better:)
BI BI Lindsay
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:48:44 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Changes in Naked Lunch text
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I have recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in
the text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and
the 1992 Evergreen edition. A couple seem to be simply corrections of
typos, but at least one was a more substantial change. (I have checked
only the introduction, "Desposition: testimony concerning a sickness",
so they may be more changes later in the text.)
[listed by page #s of '66 ed./'92 ed, followed by line #]
xxxvii/ix.3from bttm delaudid --> dilaudid
xlii/xiv.3from bttm a vast hive --> vast hives
xlv/xvii.1 Heiderberg --> Heisenberg
xlvi/xviii.9fr btm Occam --> Ockham
xlvi/xviii.7fr btm Phlilosophicus --> Philosophicus
It would be interesting to know who made these changes, and on what
basis, and whether there were changes made from the original 1959
Olympia Press edition and the 1962 First American edition....
Awhile back on this list I noted that the 1964 french translation of
NL had both omissions *and* additions compared to the 1992 english
text--but perhaps it *did* faithfully follow one of the earlier
english editions.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:11:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <34C6C574.235F@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sorry, I didnt mean to make anyone think that I knew Jack Kerouac. I just
get this feeling, from his writing and stuff, that he wasn't a homosexual.
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Patricia Elliott wrote:
> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> >
> > For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
> > reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
>
> wow, i didn't know we had someone who know jack from that time, how did
> you know him or are you a scholar, is this information based on some
> material that i can access.
> patricia
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 05:33:29 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: The linguistics of cybersex
Content-Type: text/plain
well, as far as c-sex goes...
i've tried it...a few times...*g*..
but i think that as far as the beats would have been concerned...
they would have had no problem doing it...
would have been better than going at it alone....
*g*...
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:52:19 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 1/21/98 10:51:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU writes:
> It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the
> ordinary man.
I think you're overstating this, Eric. They were ordinary men who wrote well
and took advantage of the notoriety afforded by the Howl Obscenity bust. They
had the talent to continue the wave after the initial burst of publicity put
them in the public eye. Meanwhile, they were youngish fellows trying to get
laid as often and as variously as possible. We all "understand love" in
different, very personal ways...even Ginsberg, I'm certain. To hold him up as
having the eefuss eyefuss the love thang is the same kind of hyperbole he and
Jack used to extol the superhuman sexual powers of Neal. It is part of the
Beat mystique or mythos or whatever you wish to call it. These were real
people subject to the same faults and flaws and foibles, the same flights of
genius, the same flashes of brilliance that are common to all of us.
Understand, please, that I am not attempting to minimize their accomplishments
or the value of their works. I wouldn't be on the list if I didn't believe in
the greatness of the artistry. Nor did I intend at the top of this post, to
suggest that their reknown was mere happenstance resulting from the bust. I
have a tendency to oversimplify...I'm certain their works would have come to
light if the bust had never occured.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:38:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: scope
I'd like to use the recent postings on cybersex to illustrate a point I
made in my last message on the scope of beat-l. One or two messages on
cybersex woudn't have been so bad. But common sense should prevail. A
thread that has nothing to do with Beat authors and their works has gone
on too long. I'm sure there are more appropriate lists to discuss
cybersex. So let's move on to topics that are relevant to the list.
Bill Gargan, listowner.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:01:08 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Kerouac as a straight queer
Comments: cc: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nancy B. Brodsky wrote:
>For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
>reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
>dont think Kerouac had any homosexual experiences at all...
YOU HAVE NOT DONE YOUR HOMEWORK. GET YE TO THE LIBRARY.
-JOHN HASBROUCK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:25:16 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Kerouac as a straight queer
MIME-Version: 1.0
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eric mayhew wrote:
>this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit
>eric
I wish to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the
delicate issue under discussion with impressive confidence and
authority. While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go
right over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,
well-articulated position.
Now, while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as
well as receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has
been well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of
course is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of
HOMOSEXUAL to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while
there are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is
some question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My
opinion on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to
be deeply involved with research in the field.
If I may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would
like to suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally
know of no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.
He himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which
he took part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or
so? Any comments?
-John Hasbrouck
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:29:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac as a straight queer
In-Reply-To: <34C71077.353A@tezcat.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I personally find it intersting that this list, of all places, would
attract homophobes. Mayhew, tell us you're not a homophobe!
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:
> eric mayhew wrote:
>
> >this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit
> >eric
>
> I wish to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the
> delicate issue under discussion with impressive confidence and
> authority. While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go
> right over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,
> well-articulated position.
>
> Now, while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as
> well as receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has
> been well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of
> course is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of
> HOMOSEXUAL to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while
> there are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is
> some question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My
> opinion on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to
> be deeply involved with research in the field.
>
> If I may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would
> like to suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally
> know of no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.
> He himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which
> he took part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or
> so? Any comments?
>
> -John Hasbrouck
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:30:18 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nils-Oivind Haagensen <Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>
Subject: Re: Kerouac as poet
In-Reply-To: <"noralf.uib.220:22.01.98.05.05.51"@uib.no>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I haven't followed this thread, i just stumbeled on it today, so if i'm
repeating somebody, i'm sorry... Heres my two cents anyway:
According to Jack he was a poet in all his writing (in the preface to
Pomes all Sizes:"you call yourselves poets writing short little lines, i'm
a poet but i write lines many pages long...") and that's because, in my
view, he doesn't generate plots in his novels, but concentrates on "the
details of life," the details of life being Neal Cassadys kitchen zink or
the slickwood stools of an old diner; the details of life being, also, as
in Proust, the few moments of self-recognition, of identification with
the flow of time; the details of life this way being the poetry of life.
I consider him a poet in that respect. Is he a good one, a great one?
(By who's standard?) I don't know, who's to say?
regards
nh
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:44:02 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: cybersex
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
patricia, i'm so glad to be back and getting your thoughts and posts and
openness. in the 60s i got everything a girl wouldn't want. remember the free
clinics of the 60s? i was a frequent flyer back then.
mc
Patricia Elliott wrote:
> Sara Feustle wrote:
> >
> > *laughing hysterically* I wonder what Beat cybersex would look/sound
> > like.... On second thought, maybe I don't wanna know... *laughing harder*
>
> well, honey , i take my sex pretty serious, don't find cyber sex too
> hysterical or jerking off outlandish,i remember phone sex fondly, but
> most of it for me is fun and a real grind. I asked william about his
> sex life in his late 70's and he said
> "well usually when the matter comes up, by the time i get on the phone
> and the opportunity is there it doesn't matter anymore". Of his
> reaction to my blessed promiscuity (that i much enjoyed) he was neither
> judgemental or at all interested. I heard once when he was describing
> me to someone, he said with a thin lipped smile, well she is very
> popular with the gentlemen. He was much more interested in the fact
> that my word was very good, a developed sense of humor, (he also liked
> people to cook) and that while i was a self determined Bitch, i did not
> do underhanded or mean things. Once i decided to marry i never had a
> moment that it wasn't easy to be faithful, before i was married and
> before aids came in the picture i usually took a new lover every month
> or so and kept some of the old ones for over twenty years. It is a
> different time. The miracle of my happily spent youth was i never got a
> sid. well the crabs once. could all this be much more about my sex life
> than any one ever wanted to hear. if so back channel the flames because
> nonbeat flames actually don't have to be posted to the list.
> I really laugh about when i asked william about his sex life, which i
> never took his answer as the gospel but he did love my audacity at
> times. William was much more elegant than i am, i am very gauche, but
> actually becomming more civilized by the decade.
> patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:44:27 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Dennis wrote:
<<It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the
> ordinary man.
I think you're overstating this, Eric. >>
Dennis, i can't agree with you. there are people in this world who having
an unusual amount of love to give. Mother Theresa comes to mind. i think
both AG and JK (Jack's was more abstract and personal and screwed up with
his demons, maybe) had this, but Allen was a true lionheart - anyone who has
seen him participate in rallies, watched him talking to people can see this
amazing spirit of love in him. i don't think Eric was referring to Allen's
sexual love, rather all forms of his love. his overwhelming love for
humankind.
i don't see how this can be construed as AG being a saint, perfect or
anything else. just a man with an amazing, extraordinary capacity for love.
ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:15:54 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: scope
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
thanks, bill
mc
Bill Gargan wrote:
> I'd like to use the recent postings on cybersex to illustrate a point I
> made in my last message on the scope of beat-l. One or two messages on
> cybersex woudn't have been so bad. But common sense should prevail. A
> thread that has nothing to do with Beat authors and their works has gone
> on too long. I'm sure there are more appropriate lists to discuss
> cybersex. So let's move on to topics that are relevant to the list.
> Bill Gargan, listowner.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:48:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: movies
In-Reply-To: <3e089546.34c662fe@aol.com>
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On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, IDDHI wrote:
> In a message dated 20-Jan-98 11:46:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> Sadenigma@AOL.COM writes:
>
> << does anyone know if WSB had a favorite movie? what was it? or if he
> liked movies at all?
>
>
> chad >>
I did an interview with Burroughs in which the relevant topic of
discussion was filmic aspects of his work. We talked a bit about movies,
and one that he particularly liked was "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" He
didn't like any of the film adaptations of Hemingway's books. The last
movie he had seen at the time I did the interview with him was Outbreak.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:11:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: love love love
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>> Jeez, has anyone ever had cybersex on here? Scary thought....
>
>Happen all the time, just got to look for subtle clues.
like the name of this list?
KEN
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:12:18 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Nancy,
I think alot of the confusion around this topic is that we are in an era (post
stonewall, or whatever) when people are being asked to think of themselves as
either gay or straight. I think it was Gore Vidal who said that there are only
homosexual acts not homsexual people or something to that effect. Through much
of
history individuals who whose history was almost but not entirely hetersexual
saw
themselves as heterosexual. Now they are being urged to define themnselves as
gay
or bi. This was not yet true when Jack and Allan were young. And as Sherri and
others have pointed out a great many people have some experience outside their
dominant gender definition. I think you are right, Jack was not a
homosexual--but
he had a fairly extensive history of occasional homosexual acts.
James Stauffer
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> Sorry, I didnt mean to make anyone think that I knew Jack Kerouac. I just
> get this feeling, from his writing and stuff, that he wasn't a homosexual.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:10:01 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: movies
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:48:09 -0500 from
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Neil or anyone else on the list: I saw a film on witchcraft that WSB narrated
about 20 years ago. I think it was called "Haxan" or something like that. If
anyone has details: director, correct title, etc. please post.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:28:35 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
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Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> It would be interesting to know who made these changes, and on what
> basis, and whether there were changes made from the original 1959
> Olympia Press edition and the 1962 First American edition....
>
> Jeff Taylor
> taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
> *******
i think this seems very interesting. it demonstrates that slight
changes can change meaning and perhaps extends the notion of "word" as
"virus" to the point of "letters/characters" as "innoculation".
i hope that someone provides insight into the sources and motives for
these changes in text.
gypsy davey
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:37:52 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: The word "random" and WSB
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This is only tangentially Beat in content. Feel free to delete.
Beat-related:
my introduction to William S. Burroughs was a spoken word LP called
"Breakthrough in the Grey Room". At one point i had parts of it
memorized. One of the tracks (i believe a lecture at Naropa) discusses
the ideas behind "random" cut-ups and the possibility of "randomness" in
general.
Non-Beat-related.
I'm currently working as an unofficial ambassador for the president
(named Tuna) of an intercollegiate debate organization on eDebate-L. It
is a controversy that is long long in the making and is now embroiled in
discussions of organizational Constitution and By-Laws.
Semi-Beat-Related:
Ironically, the main controversy currently is about sections in the
By-Laws which employ the term "random" in an aspirational or imperative
sense. It seems to me, from my memory, that the words of Burroughs
concerning "random" and "randomness" might come in handy in my
ambassadorial mode (side note: the president "Tuna" is currently reading
"Ghost of a Chance" and his critical commentary is one word: "nice.")
If people can backchannel me specific references and quotations
concerning the meanings of "random" from WSB or other beat authors I
would appreciate it.
Non-Beat Related:
i have done a search of Random in Bartlett's and found a couple nice
quotations (but only a couple) to provide some literary backing to a
post i'll probably design to send out by Sunday on eDebate.
Beat-Related:
Certainly, the notion of "randomness" has more literary grounding in the
era spawned by the beats with the inclusion of "spontaneous prose" and
"cut-ups" as part of the literary process.
Please send comments backchannel as this doesn't seem to justify
bandwidth (unless someone can find a way to turn the beat-related
portions into an interesting thread).
thanks in advance,
gypsy davey
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:42:14 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy (exposition, please)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980121170620.008694e0@pop.southeast.net>
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Ginny and Randy, grazie per l'aiuto, (thanx for help me),
the literally italian translation of "pull my daisy"
is: "raccogli la mia margherita". the daisy (margherita)
is a fair flower with white petals that bloom in springtime
and summertime (in Italy and United States of America, i suppose).
in italian Margherita is also a first name of a person (female)
i dunno if it is too in american,
anyway the meaning of "margherita" is a lot poetic.
the lovers shed the petals as a romantic rite.
the "pull my daisy" has the meaning of someone to offer
a flower (exactly _my_ flower) as Kerouac poetry (id est).
_but_ the italian translator writes:
Pull my daisy Prendimi il pisello
this means that "pisello" has nothing to do with "margherita"
cuz of "pisello=pea" nothing to do with "daisy"... im' very
abashed but in italian slang "pisello"=_the sexual masculine organ_
that cracks me up the poetry of the Kerouac poem (excuse me
Randy but maybe the poetic group Ginsberg,Kerouac&Cassady have
a bit confused a delicate concept, of course, if u are into a
trainspottingesque plot u can only accept a phrase like "pull my daisy"
as "gentle" feeling, id est Pull my daisy=Pull my sexual masculine
organ), instead i think that Kerouac means "read my poem with a gentle
insight, i'm a delicate man".
strange fact of life, the translator is Carlo Alberto Corsi
who fine translated in the mid 70s the collected Gregory Corso poems,
now in 1997 (20 year later what's up!) he is following with such
a shoking trend i noticed also in Allen Ginsberg italian translation by
an another translator citicized to post-modernized poems which was
written in the 50s or 60s'
i cant imagine that Keroauc is a trainspotting-like character.
saluti a tutti voi,
e rigranzio per l'attenzione,
Rinaldo.
-------
randy wrote:
>rinaldo:
>call me immature, perverted or whatever but i always (since a few monthes
>ago wheni got the book) thought it was sexual. but then again, ginny, you
>may be right
>it is absurd. or as wsb quoted someone else "nothing is true. everything is
>permitted."
>randy
>At 03:29 PM 1/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 98-01-21 12:49:26 EST, you write:
>>
>>> pull my daisy
>>
>>Rinaldo--
>>nothing. as a concept it has no logical merit to those trying to find common
>>ground between this writer and that writer and this genre and human minds et
>>cetera.
>> "Tira la mia pratolina!" <--- thats it. in italiano, that's exactly
>what it
>>means.
>>what does your translation say?
>>--Ginny.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:42:10 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac as a straight queer
it has nothing to do with being a homophobe, Sara, and everything to do with
careless, facile and simplistic labelling. AG considered himself gay, JK
didn't. i think they know better than we ever can. if we get into
labelling, then we have to consider the fact that JK had plenty of het sex -
which would then indicate bisexuality; however, i think Jack would know
better than any of us. i personally, living in SF, have known many men who
have had same sex experiences, some over a long period of time, whom i would
not label as gay, nor do they call themselves that.
why do we find it so necessary to stick people in little boxes?
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Kerouac as a straight queer
>I personally find it intersting that this list, of all places, would
>attract homophobes. Mayhew, tell us you're not a homophobe!
>
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio?
>
>
>On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
>> eric mayhew wrote:
>>
>> >this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit
>> >eric
>>
>> I wish to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the
>> delicate issue under discussion with impressive confidence and
>> authority. While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go
>> right over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,
>> well-articulated position.
>>
>> Now, while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as
>> well as receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has
>> been well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of
>> course is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of
>> HOMOSEXUAL to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while
>> there are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is
>> some question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My
>> opinion on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to
>> be deeply involved with research in the field.
>>
>> If I may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would
>> like to suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally
>> know of no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.
>> He himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which
>> he took part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or
>> so? Any comments?
>>
>> -John Hasbrouck
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:52:06 -0800
Reply-To: mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: eric mayhew <mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac as a straight queer
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Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> I personally find it intersting that this list, of all places, would
> attract homophobes. Mayhew, tell us you're not a homophobe!
>
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio?
>
> On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
> > eric mayhew wrote:
> >
> > >this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit
> > >eric
> >
> > I wish to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the
> > delicate issue under discussion with impressive confidence and
> > authority. While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go
> > right over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,
> > well-articulated position.
> >
> > Now, while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as
> > well as receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has
> > been well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of
> > course is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of
> > HOMOSEXUAL to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while
> > there are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is
> > some question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My
> > opinion on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to
> > be deeply involved with research in the field.
> >
> > If I may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would
> > like to suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally
> > know of no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.
> > He himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which
> > he took part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or
> > so? Any comments?
> >
> > -John Hasbrouck
> >
My comment was merely a statement with the intent of putting to rest any
thoughts that Jack Kerouac was a homosexual. The discussion seemed
somewhat absurd to me based on my previous readings.
Sara, i hereby will assure that i am in no way a homophobe. You should
not make speculative statements based on a short comment you received
from me over the internet.
If you wish to further discuss this topic, I would be happy to share my
views. Otherwise, let it be over and done with.
with love
eric d. mayhew
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:54:20 -0800
Reply-To: mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: eric mayhew <mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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sherri wrote:
>
> Dennis wrote:
>
> <<It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the
> > ordinary man.
> I think you're overstating this, Eric. >>
>
> Dennis, i can't agree with you. there are people in this world who having
> an unusual amount of love to give. Mother Theresa comes to mind. i think
> both AG and JK (Jack's was more abstract and personal and screwed up with
> his demons, maybe) had this, but Allen was a true lionheart - anyone who has
> seen him participate in rallies, watched him talking to people can see this
> amazing spirit of love in him. i don't think Eric was referring to Allen's
> sexual love, rather all forms of his love. his overwhelming love for
> humankind.
>
> i don't see how this can be construed as AG being a saint, perfect or
> anything else. just a man with an amazing, extraordinary capacity for love.
>
> ciao, sherri
Sherri
thanks for clearing up my statement. You truly did have an
understanding of what i was talking about. It is clear that some people
see love only in the physical, while others let it be part of their
entire existence. There are many levels to this love incorporation.
eric
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:33:03 -0500
Reply-To: mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mongo BearWolf <mongo.bearwolf@DARTMOUTH.EDU>
Organization: Dartmouth College
Subject: Allen Ginsberg Questions
Comments: cc: kenr@paradisenet.cl
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Hi Folks...
Ken, a Canadian citizen residing in Chile, is doing some in-depth
research on Allen Ginsberg. Since he has had some difficulty finding
reference works down there, he has asked me to pass some questions on to
the list.
IMPORTANT: Since he is not subscribed, if you'd like to address these
questions, please be sure to reply to Ken directly at:
kenr@paradisenet.cl
And if you'd like to copy me on your answers, that would be great!
Thanks!
--Mongo
======= KEN'S QUESTIONS =======================>
Kaddish:
1. "EMILY DICKINSON'S HORSES". I imagine he's referring to one of
Dickinson's poems; Do you know which one?
2. "CHEESEBOX PUBLIC SERVICE BUS". Does "public service" just
mean it's a government-run bus service? As for cheesebox, I seem
to remember that there was a brand of cheese years ago that came
in a long yellow rectangular box. Do you think that's what he's
referring to?
3. "YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN ME IN WOODBINE". Woodbine, as far as I can
tell, is
a town in southern New Jersey. Did it have any particular significance
in
Ginsberg's mother's life?
4. "STRAINED LAMB CARROTS". He's referring to baby food here, but
I've never heard the expression "lamb carrots". Is it just a way
of saying that they're small carrots?
5. On the last page, after mentioning his grandmother Rebecca,
Ginsberg refers to someone named David. Do you know who he is or
was?
Howl:
1. In the ninth paragraph: "PAINT HOTELS". What does this mean?
2. In the 14th paragraph: "FUGAZZI'S". I believe this is a cafe
in either New York or San Francisco. Do you know which?
--------------------------------------------------------
...visit...
ALLEN GINSBERG:
Shadow Changes into Bone
The Clearinghouse for all things Ginsberg!
http://www.ginzy.com
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:41:32 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: the knifes of mrs adele mailer
In-Reply-To: <199801212335.SAA27101@ionline.net>
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Adele Mailer in _The Last Party_ it seems that
stated she was the lover of the Beat Generation
and Jack Kerouac made love as writing a stream
of consciousness quickly careless the partner.
Very sad self-control...
Adele Mailer was the 2th wife to Norman Mailer
she wrote a memories book.
saluti,
rinaldo.
-------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:42:42 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: movies/Chapaqua
In-Reply-To: <199801212335.SAA27101@ionline.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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"M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET> writes:
>Nothing to do what WSB's favorite movies are/were, but
>_Chapaqua_ is now in release (movie w/ cinematography
>by Robert Frank, and stars Ginsberg, Orlovsky, Burroughs,
>Monk, etc.). It was a 1966 (65?) release and won an Italian
>film award. Check out your video stores. . .
>
>Mike
>
Mike,
1966--Chappaqua, by Conrand Rooks. the movie won
the _Leone d'argento_ (the runner-up, after _Leone d'oro_)
at the Festival del Cinema in Venice,Italy.
aside note Chappaqua in venetian vernacular means "snap up this!"
...not related with the movie...only a synapse short circuit...
saluti,
rinaldo.
-------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:14:52 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg Questions
Comments: To: mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Mongo BearWolf wrote:
>
> 5. On the last page, after mentioning his grandmother Rebecca,
> Ginsberg refers to someone named David. Do you know who he is or
> was?
>
i kind of thought that was refering to me! <grinning grandiosely>
david
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:36:07 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
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Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> I have recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in
> the text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and
> the 1992 Evergreen edition. A couple seem to be simply corrections of
> typos, but at least one was a more substantial change. (I have checked
> only the introduction, "Desposition: testimony concerning a sickness",
> so they may be more changes later in the text.)
>
> [listed by page #s of '66 ed./'92 ed, followed by line #]
>
> xxxvii/ix.3from bttm delaudid --> dilaudid
> xlii/xiv.3from bttm a vast hive --> vast hives
> xlv/xvii.1 Heiderberg --> Heisenberg
> xlvi/xviii.9fr btm Occam --> Ockham
> xlvi/xviii.7fr btm Phlilosophicus --> Philosophicus
just out of curiosity: how did you manage to spot these changes?
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:27:08 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
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Ksenija Simic wrote:
>
> Jeff Taylor wrote:
> >
> > I have recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in
> > the text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and
> > the 1992 Evergreen edition. A couple seem to be simply corrections of
> > typos, but at least one was a more substantial change. (I have checked
> > only the introduction, "Desposition: testimony concerning a sickness",
> > so they may be more changes later in the text.)
> >
> > [listed by page #s of '66 ed./'92 ed, followed by line #]
> >
> > xxxvii/ix.3from bttm delaudid --> dilaudid
> > xlii/xiv.3from bttm a vast hive --> vast hives
> > xlv/xvii.1 Heiderberg --> Heisenberg
> > xlvi/xviii.9fr btm Occam --> Ockham
> > xlvi/xviii.7fr btm Phlilosophicus --> Philosophicus
>
> just out of curiosity: how did you manage to spot these changes?
>
> ksenija
My suspicion is that Jeff is among that endangered species: The Close
Reader.
-Hasbrouck
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:24:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Susan L Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
Content-Type: text/plain
An observation:
It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex
experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either
homosexual or bisexual. However, if a man has a same sex sexual experience, he
"must" either be gay or at least bisexual. (again, this is a generalization)
I wonder why?
Susan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:42:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
In-Reply-To: <199801222124.QAA19328@pilot008.cl.msu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I think it has to do with all that macho boys-don't-cry bullshit that men
and boys have had shoved down their throats since the beginning of time.
We women are supposed to be "weak," and if we make a little digression
here and there, no big deal, right? But men are supposed to be "strong"
and not give in to such "weaknesses."
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Susan L Dean wrote:
> An observation:
>
> It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex
> experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either
> homosexual or bisexual. However, if a man has a same sex sexual experience,
he
> "must" either be gay or at least bisexual. (again, this is a generalization)
>
> I wonder why?
>
> Susan
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:54:10 -0700
Reply-To: bluetorn@nanaimo.ark.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherryl <bluetorn@NANAIMO.ARK.COM>
Organization: Summer-Off
Subject: hello to all you toads.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
are you tokin toads down there? I just finished writing a short
story about tokin toads in the outback-we were lookin up in on the
net about smoking toads and read your poem about all dem toads.
Sorry about your friend but I think he is in good company.
from a toad fan on Gabriola Is. BC. Canada- Lynette and Sherryl
from the West Coast ...Bushlands. Happy tokin.We Canadians toke
the best here on Gabriola Is. We will toke up in memory of W.S.
Burroughs and he will know he is in good company.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:11:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: the knifes of mrs adele mailer
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:41 PM 1/22/98 +0100, Rinaldo wrote:
>Adele Mailer in _The Last Party_ it seems that
>stated she was the lover of the Beat Generation
>and Jack Kerouac made love as writing a stream
>of consciousness quickly careless the partner.
>Very sad self-control...
>Adele Mailer was the 2th wife to Norman Mailer
>she wrote a memories book.
For those interested in reading the Kerouac
content of this book check out the NY Times website
and there are a few chapters available to read:
_The Last Party: Scenes from My Life with Norman Mailer_
By ADELE MAILER
Do a search with the above at the NY Times website
(www.nytimes.com). Or, if you are subscribed to the
times website already go to:
http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+site+25904+0+
wAAA+jack%7Ekerouac%2Fadele%7Emailer
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:12:08 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 22-Jan-98 1:26:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:
<< It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex
experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either
homosexual or bisexual. However, if a man has a same sex sexual experience,
>>
Not beat. So generalistic as to have been pulled out of thin air. Divisive
gender-bashing will soon ensue. And, it's rather boring.
So shoot me.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:43:36 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: movies
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Bill Gargan wrote:
> I saw a film on witchcraft that WSB narrated
> about 20 years ago. I think it was called "Haxan" or something like
that. If
> anyone has details: director, correct title, etc. please post.
The title is correct, also known by the alternate title "Witchcraft Through
The Ages." It was a silent movie produced in Scandinavia by someone named
Christiansen, I believe in the late 1910's or early 1920's. Banned in many
countries for explicit (for then) depiction of demons, witches, etc. The
WSB narration was added in the 1960's. Wish I had more details, but maybe
someone else can take it from here...
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:36:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sorted <junky@NETCONCEPTS.COM>
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980122164034.113806D-100000@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
i can boil this down to a very basic, if not somehwhat offensive, sentence.
if it walks, talks, and is attractive to me: i'll hump it.
it's that shaggy k9 in me.
am i gay, bi, or straight? i suppose it depends on the color of my outfit
and how low i dip my swagger.
yeh. next topic.
>I think it has to do with all that macho boys-don't-cry bullshit that men
>and boys have had shoved down their throats since the beginning of time.
>We women are supposed to be "weak," and if we make a little digression
>here and there, no big deal, right? But men are supposed to be "strong"
>and not give in to such "weaknesses."
>Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........
>
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio?
>
>
>On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Susan L Dean wrote:
>
>> An observation:
>>
>> It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex
>> experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either
>> homosexual or bisexual. However, if a man has a same sex sexual experience,
> he
>> "must" either be gay or at least bisexual. (again, this is a
>>generalization)
>>
>> I wonder why?
>>
>> Susan
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:35:32 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Dennis wrote:
>
> <<It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the
> > ordinary man.
> I think you're overstating this, Eric. >>
>
i think you are wrong, i have met many people and many writers and
allen stood out with a real shine on how he cared and nurtured. he and
another man who noone knew (jamie grow) sticks in my mind for their
unique capacity to express love on incredible levels. unless you have
something to base that these were just ordinary men i think it is hob
wash . william was a caring person but the stars in his crown for me
was his mother fucking incredible intellect and wicked sense of humor.
allen was a lot more than a man capable of unique levels of love but to
judge him ordinary in that arena is to misjudge/.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:40:09 -0500
Reply-To: deansusa@pilot.msu.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Susan Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: private to maggie
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
(I apologize for cluttering everyone else's mailbox, but I did not have
an address for a private reply.)
Maggie-
I agree that the message in itself was not very beat, however it was
related to a thread that has been going on for awhile. (which makes it
at least slightly more beat than lot of recent postings) However, I
also think that your response wasn't beat either, and probably should
have been a private message.
As I stated, my comment was a generalization. I didn't "pull it out of
thin air" though. It was a general summary of some studies we
researched in a human sexuality course I took.
I would hope that men and women could discuss gender/sexuality issues
such as this without turning the discussion into a war of the sexes.
(though I fully agree that the discussion should not take place here)
If you have any further comments, you can e-mail me privately at
deansusa@pilot.msu.edu
Susan
the above message was not meant to be interpreted as rude. sometimes
its hard to get your point across in an e-mail without sounding
impolite. for that same reason, even though the tone of your post
appeared pretty rude to me, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and
assume that was not the intent.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:51:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
In-Reply-To: <199801222124.QAA19328@pilot008.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 04:24 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>An observation:
>
>It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex
>experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either
>homosexual or bisexual. However, if a man has a same sex sexual
experience, he
>"must" either be gay or at least bisexual. (again, this is a generalization)
>
>I wonder why?
>
>Susan
>
>
The reason is simple, its a male-dominated society, not a woman-dominated
society. The Society cares what males do with their semen. They want round
blocks in round holes. Women care lots about their own eggs, but Society
could care less until it starts to turn into a child.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:05:17 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: narcotics and the CIA
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
updates at <http://speech.csun.edu/ben/news/cia/index.html> by ben
attias. according to these report that anti-beat-institution the
Central Intelligence Agency is up to dirty tricks and treats on the
homefront. Whether you believe it or not, i think my friend Ben does a
marvelous job of collating the information. the new material most
notably is some Real Audio materials (unfortunately i have no sound card
yet).
gypsy davey
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:07:38 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthew Shelton <matthew_shelton@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Beat Spirit
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Recently while looking through my local bookstore I found a book
titled Beat Spirit by Mel Ash. This book has activities designed to
teach the Beat way of life. I was wondering if anyone had read this
book and if they had any opinions about it, positive or negative.
==
-----------------------------------------------------
Matthew Shelton
matthew_shelton@mail.okbu.edu
-----------------------------------------------------
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:37:06 -0800
Reply-To: eatcarpaccio@geocities.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Anthony <eatcarpaccio@GEOCITIES.COM>
Organization: Cad Corporation
Subject: Beat Generation Project
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Beat-lers,
My name is Anthony and I'm from Mountain View California. I am 16
and I go to Mountain View High School. I've been reading a lot of the
stuf on Beat-L for about a month now to get an idea of what people of
today think of the beats. Myself and three classmates of mine are doing
an in-depth, year long research project on the beats and their effect on
America. The classes that are involved are two separate but linked
classes (the teachers work closely together): U.S. History A.P. and
American Lieterature Honors. Our English teacher has been doing the
project for 20 years and the idea is that each group picks a topic,
researches it, and comes up with a unique thesis to present to the class
in their final 45 minute presentation.
The current state of our research is that we have read a lot of the
beat material: OTR, Dharma Bums, Ginsberg poetry, Snyder Poetry,
anthologies like Birth of the Beat Generation by Stephen Watson, with
Naked Lunch and Junky next on the list. We have listened to the CD
collection "The Beat Generation," seen the movie Naked Lunch, taken an
excursion up to City Lights, and read a lot of stuff on the net like Lit
Kicks and BigTable. We also plan to interview Lawrence Ferlinghetti
within the next few weeks.
Our current thesis basically propounds the following ideas:
The beats were important fighters for individual freedom in
America. They used their non-conformist beliefs, attitudes, and
practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive
society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and
expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals
(e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of
conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism. The beats sparked a
much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more
individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and
later the hippies in the 60's. And finally, the beats invaluably
contributed to American literature with their new, innovative,
spontaneous style.
We would love any feedback from all of you who know so much about
these guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you
might have.
Thanks for reading my long message!
--
Anthony
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:57:49 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Zyprexa blues #235
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
i slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard
Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest
comedy. i head to the bar and say i want coffee and the cat says he
ain't got none. he's closing early - AGAIN! - so i take water and turn
just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy
of America in search of Itself. He passes on water. We talk about the
old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed
coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places
like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke
a Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore. we get in a white car and
drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled
up and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn. Where can
we go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not
murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an
all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks
me square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and
if you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that
they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide
the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking
face. what THIS TIME i say. He LAUGHS a Neal laugh. I laugh back and
we drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top. A quiet night on
the spot where you can see seven water towers. I asked him about the
Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i
says. And Neal just LAUGHS. Some folks are pretty pissed off that it
wasn't really you in the movie. He says he auditioned but didn't make
it past the first cut. Suddenly I'm serious. Neal, if you had it all
to do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life. He
smiles and says Sure. No laughter - just a Neal Cassady smile. Now i'm
alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking
another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon
for Denver. Nothing big - just a tear. I'll miss this spot with the
souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old
country before 1956. I drive home quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the
sound of Silence" on the radio. my parking place is waiting for me and
i have coffee at my kitchen gallery. i head to the bathroom and take my
nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol. i sit down at the keyboard. i
type......
January 22nd, 1998
david b. rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:07:12 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: john boggs <jaboggs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
Content-Type: text/plain
mike said:
>At 04:24 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>An observation:
>>
>>It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same
sex
>>experiences between women without assuming that those involved are
either
>>homosexual or bisexual. However, if a man has a same sex sexual
>experience, he
>>"must" either be gay or at least bisexual. (again, this is a
generalization)
>>
>>I wonder why?
>>
>>Susan
>>
>>
>The reason is simple, its a male-dominated society, not a
woman-dominated
>society. The Society cares what males do with their semen. They want
round
>blocks in round holes. Women care lots about their own eggs, but
Society
>could care less until it starts to turn into a child.
>
>Mike Rice
>
good answer. also, men tend to get off on girl-girl sex, but the women
i've talked to are either indifferent to -or disgusted by- men doing it
with other men. -this could explain alot as well.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:33:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
In-Reply-To: <34C81E6C.478FB23E@geocities.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(apologies to anthony, i didn't check my headers the first time)
good evening,
i believe jack keroauc said one time in an interview, "I'm not against
anything. I don't have time for that kind of negativity." If U.S. customs
hadn't made such a big deal about Howl, then what would of happened to the
beats? maybe kerouac would have never been able to find a publisher for On
The ROad, since ginsberg wouldn't be able to reccomend him to a big
publisher...
maybe someone else has something more thoughtful to say about that above,
but what i mean is they were not using their philosphy or anything to
steer america away in any direction. maybe to just stop for a second and
question the world america was in. for example ginsberd wrote howl to tell
people what his generation was going through. all the shit the Best Minds
of His Generation went through simply because their point of view was
different than the norm. and not once (please correct me if i am wrong on
this) did ginsberg ever write in howl, something to the effect of "come on
and lets go take some smack!!!" you have a pretty good start on your
thesis, and take this into consideration if you would like. your final
sentence sums up very well that which you make seem as a by-product- their
creation of a new genre in literature. Perhaps you should try to
concentrate on that instead of just their beliefs and the impact of their
beliefs and such.
At 08:37 PM 1/22/98 -0800, you wrote:
> Our current thesis basically propounds the following ideas:
>
> The beats were important fighters for individual freedom in
>America. They used their non-conformist beliefs, attitudes, and
>practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive
>society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and
>expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals
>(e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of
>conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism. The beats sparked a
>much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more
>individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and
>later the hippies in the 60's. And finally, the beats invaluably
>contributed to American literature with their new, innovative,
>spontaneous style.
>
> We would love any feedback from all of you who know so much about
>these guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you
>might have.
>
>Thanks for reading my long message!
>
>--
>
>Anthony
>
>
randy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:35:35 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: SPElias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 98-01-23 00:18:58 EST, you write:
<< mike said:
>At 04:24 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>An observation:
>>
>>It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same
sex
>>experiences between women without assuming that those involved are
either
>>homosexual or bisexual. However, if a man has a same sex sexual
>experience, he
>>"must" either be gay or at least bisexual. (again, this is a
generalization)
>>
>>I wonder why?
>>
>>Susan
>>
>>
>The reason is simple, its a male-dominated society, not a
woman-dominated
>society. The Society cares what males do with their semen. They want
round
>blocks in round holes. Women care lots about their own eggs, but
Society
>could care less until it starts to turn into a child.
>
>Mike Rice
>
good answer. also, men tend to get off on girl-girl sex, but the women
i've talked to are either indifferent to -or disgusted by- men doing it
with other men. -this could explain alot as well.
>>
The "male dominated society" thing is an easy, "knee jerk" response and
doesn't hold up....
George Clinton sez, "Free your mind, and your ass will follow."
SciAms say, "Free your ass, and your mind will follow."
A "friend" sez, "Make friends with your sphincter."
Go figure.
beaner
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:48:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
In-Reply-To: <34C8234D.218E@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
beautiful damn good "spontainous bop prosody".
At 10:57 PM 1/22/98 -0600, you wrote:
>i slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard
>Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest
>comedy. i head to the bar and say i want coffee and the cat says he
>ain't got none. he's closing early - AGAIN! - so i take water and turn
>just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy
>of America in search of Itself. He passes on water. We talk about the
>old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed
>coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places
>like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke
>a Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore. we get in a white car and
>drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled
>up and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn. Where can
>we go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not
>murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an
>all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks
>me square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and
>if you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that
>they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide
>the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking
>face. what THIS TIME i say. He LAUGHS a Neal laugh. I laugh back and
>we drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top. A quiet night on
>the spot where you can see seven water towers. I asked him about the
>Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i
>says. And Neal just LAUGHS. Some folks are pretty pissed off that it
>wasn't really you in the movie. He says he auditioned but didn't make
>it past the first cut. Suddenly I'm serious. Neal, if you had it all
>to do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life. He
>smiles and says Sure. No laughter - just a Neal Cassady smile. Now i'm
>alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking
>another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon
>for Denver. Nothing big - just a tear. I'll miss this spot with the
>souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old
>country before 1956. I drive home quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the
>sound of Silence" on the radio. my parking place is waiting for me and
>i have coffee at my kitchen gallery. i head to the bathroom and take my
>nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol. i sit down at the keyboard. i
>type......
>
>January 22nd, 1998
>david b. rhaesa
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:48:03 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
MIME-Version: 1.0
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randy royal wrote:
> your final
> sentence sums up very well that which you make seem as a by-product- their
> creation of a new genre in literature. Perhaps you should try to
> concentrate on that instead of just their beliefs and the impact of their
> beliefs and such.
>
i think that would be a horrible thesis. it would merely be a
justification that the project is topical within the parameters of the
course. at most it should be a paragraph.
my hubristic opinion,
gypsy davey
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:28:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
In-Reply-To: <34C82F13.7F94@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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well let's have a look at this: the big three (wsb, kerouac and ginsberg)
were friends first off because they shared views right? but all three had a
knack for writing (i read somewhere wsb was for a very brief period of time
back in jk's columbia days and around when Carr murdered that guy) so they
experimented around a little bit and effectively made their own style of
literature. i heard ginsberg first wrote in classical poetry form, but
became fustrated withit and was influenced by his kerouac and burroughs to
take up free verse.
david- i don't really know. it seems like which came first? the chicken or
the egg? all right now, anthony- if i were you even it out with both
history and the spontainous literature.
then again, is your audience more lit or history minded? just accomadate to
whichever they are in either case.
have a good evening all,
randy
At 11:48 PM 1/22/98 -0600, you wrote:
>randy royal wrote:
>> your final
>> sentence sums up very well that which you make seem as a by-product- their
>> creation of a new genre in literature. Perhaps you should try to
>> concentrate on that instead of just their beliefs and the impact of their
>> beliefs and such.
>>
>i think that would be a horrible thesis. it would merely be a
>justification that the project is topical within the parameters of the
>course. at most it should be a paragraph.
>
>my hubristic opinion,
>gypsy davey
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:34:02 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-01-23 01:27:32 EST, you write:
> the big three (wsb, kerouac and ginsberg)
> were friends first off because they shared views right? but all three had a
> knack for writing (i read somewhere wsb was for a very brief period of time
> back in jk's columbia days and around when Carr murdered that guy) so they
> experimented around a little bit and effectively made their own style of
> literature.
well, .. i've always had a problem on this front. to me, Ginsberg, Kerouac,
and Burroughs were three extremely different people who happened to be
extremely close with eachother, thus conveniencing the popular press with a
reason to bind them together as the holy trinity of a movement. but, ... a
such a large part of this is overly idealized! this irks me so! Anthony-- i
too am 16 and just wrote a "critical analysis" of On the Road. this was a big
dilemma for me, because i've been reading Kerouac since 8th grade and felt
that it was my obligation (to god knows what) to write about On the Road for
my semester paper (we had to choose from a list of books-- fiction and non-
fiction-- pertaining to the 2nd half the century), yet at the same time, i
felt i could have gotten alot more out of the assignment if i'd done something
i didnt know as much about. anyhow, i mean, when you assess beat literature,
you will see that Ginsberg's, Kerouac's and Burrough's intentions as writers,
tho stemming from the same discontent, were very different. their feelings
for humanity were drastically different. Kerouac showed little care for the
social well-being of the nation, or any nation for that matter. Ginsberg was
one of the most loving souls i have ever had the honor of coming into contact
with. A tremendous presence in this city, spiritually, politically, and
humanistically. Burroughs, well, god, what was he all about when it really
came down to it? i never felt much affinity for him, i have to admit. (will i
be kicked off the list?....)
buone cose a tutti,
---Ginny Browne.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:32:09 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
Comments: To: eatcarpaccio@geocities.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thanks for letting us know about this good news from Mountain View High!
This is particularly exciting when you consider that Mountain View was a
mormom stronghold in the early sixties (still is?) when the first private
psychiatric hospital (El Camino Hospital) facilitiy was opened in the bay
area to serve primarily Lockheed executives who received unheard of 100%
psychiatric coverage.
I am curious about
1. Is the project popular with the students? ( I bet)
2. Names of the teachers?
3. What is the CAD Corporation and how is it related to you?
Have fun in your project
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony <eatcarpaccio@geocities.com>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 8:49 PM
Subject: Beat Generation Project
>Beat-lers,
>
> My name is Anthony and I'm from Mountain View California. I am 16
>and I go to Mountain View High School. I've been reading a lot of the
>stuf on Beat-L for about a month now to get an idea of what people of
>today think of the beats. Myself and three classmates of mine are doing
>an in-depth, year long research project on the beats and their effect on
>America. The classes that are involved are two separate but linked
>classes (the teachers work closely together): U.S. History A.P. and
>American Lieterature Honors. Our English teacher has been doing the
>project for 20 years and the idea is that each group picks a topic,
>researches it, and comes up with a unique thesis to present to the class
>in their final 45 minute presentation.
> The current state of our research is that we have read a lot of the
>beat material: OTR, Dharma Bums, Ginsberg poetry, Snyder Poetry,
>anthologies like Birth of the Beat Generation by Stephen Watson, with
>Naked Lunch and Junky next on the list. We have listened to the CD
>collection "The Beat Generation," seen the movie Naked Lunch, taken an
>excursion up to City Lights, and read a lot of stuff on the net like Lit
>Kicks and BigTable. We also plan to interview Lawrence Ferlinghetti
>within the next few weeks.
> Our current thesis basically propounds the following ideas:
>
> The beats were important fighters for individual freedom in
>America. They used their non-conformist beliefs, attitudes, and
>practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive
>society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and
>expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals
>(e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of
>conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism. The beats sparked a
>much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more
>individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and
>later the hippies in the 60's. And finally, the beats invaluably
>contributed to American literature with their new, innovative,
>spontaneous style.
>
> We would love any feedback from all of you who know so much about
>these guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you
>might have.
>
>Thanks for reading my long message!
>
>--
>
>Anthony
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:43:21 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Let me guess David - A new Beat-L column? An 007 movie? No, not the end,
please.
leon?
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 9:33 PM
Subject: Zyprexa blues #235
>i slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard
>Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest
>comedy. i head to the bar and say i want coffee and the cat says he
>ain't got none. he's closing early - AGAIN! - so i take water and turn
>just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy
>of America in search of Itself. He passes on water. We talk about the
>old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed
>coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places
>like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke
>a Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore. we get in a white car and
>drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled
>up and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn. Where can
>we go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not
>murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an
>all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks
>me square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and
>if you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that
>they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide
>the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking
>face. what THIS TIME i say. He LAUGHS a Neal laugh. I laugh back and
>we drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top. A quiet night on
>the spot where you can see seven water towers. I asked him about the
>Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i
>says. And Neal just LAUGHS. Some folks are pretty pissed off that it
>wasn't really you in the movie. He says he auditioned but didn't make
>it past the first cut. Suddenly I'm serious. Neal, if you had it all
>to do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life. He
>smiles and says Sure. No laughter - just a Neal Cassady smile. Now i'm
>alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking
>another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon
>for Denver. Nothing big - just a tear. I'll miss this spot with the
>souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old
>country before 1956. I drive home quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the
>sound of Silence" on the radio. my parking place is waiting for me and
>i have coffee at my kitchen gallery. i head to the bathroom and take my
>nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol. i sit down at the keyboard. i
>type......
>
>January 22nd, 1998
>david b. rhaesa
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:07:15 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
In-Reply-To: <34C81027.53F2@eunet.yu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Ksenija Simic wrote:
> Jeff Taylor wrote:
> > I have recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in
> > the text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and
> > the 1992 Evergreen edition.
> >
> > xxxvii/ix.3from bttm delaudid --> dilaudid
> > xlii/xiv.3from bttm a vast hive --> vast hives
> > xlv/xvii.1 Heiderberg --> Heisenberg
> > xlvi/xviii.9fr btm Occam --> Ockham
> > xlvi/xviii.7fr btm Phlilosophicus --> Philosophicus
>
> just out of curiosity: how did you manage to spot these changes?
I was reading an article by R.G. Peterson, "A Picture Is a Fact:
Wittgenstein and Naked Lunch" in which Peterson noted the name
"Heiderberg" and speculated that it was a combination of Heidegger and
Heisenberg. But when I went to look up the passage in my copy of NL,
it said "Heisenberg". So I dug out my older edition of NL, and sure
enough, there it was "Heiderberg". So where there's one change,
there's likely to be more.
The really surprising change was when the phrase "....my own special
symptom, The Cold Burn, like a vast hive covering the body...." was
altered to "like vast hives". Surely it was correct the first way.
Peterson also cited the following phrase: "'Ludwig Wittenstein [sic]
Tractatus Logico-Phlilosophicus [sic]'". Now in the '66 edition, the
spelling of LW's name was correct, although the second error remained.
So since Peterson was using the '62 edition, it seems likely that
changes and corrections were made also between the '62 and '66
editions, as well as the ones I found between '66 and '92.
I also recently read "The Central Verbal System: The Prose of William
Burroughs" by Michael Skau (who is on this list, I believe), in which
he states, in the course of giving an account of WSB's various methods
for combating verbal control, that "Burroughs also refuses to correct
typographical errors in his prose....These errata comprise further
assaults on verbal control." But this claim may have to be revised,
depending on who is responsible for the changes in NL.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:48:16 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
In-Reply-To: <34C81E6C.478FB23E@geocities.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Anthony wrote:
> Our current thesis basically propounds the following ideas:
>
> The beats were important fighters for individual freedom in
> America. They used their non-conformist beliefs, attitudes, and
> practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive
> society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and
> expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals
> (e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of
> conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism. The beats sparked a
> much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more
> individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and
> later the hippies in the 60's.
If you haven't already looked at it, a good article is
Jonathan Paul Eburne, "Trafficking in the Void: Burroughs, Kerouac,
and the Consumption of Otherness". Modern Fiction Studies 43:1 (Spring
1997) 53-92.
Eburne analyzes both WSB's Naked Lunch and JK's Subterraneans against
the background of the rhetoric of J. Edgar Hoover and the general
politicization of personal identity during the '50s. All in all, one
of the best academic articles on the Beats that I've seen.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:26:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
Comments: To: Anthony <eatcarpaccio@GEOCITIES.COM>
In-Reply-To: <34C81E6C.478FB23E@geocities.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Anthony-
I did a similiar project for a similar class when I was a junior, also. In
my paper, I also talked about religion and the Beats and a good book for
that is "Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the Beat Generation". I forget who
wrote it but it was a good resource. Also, check out the Beat Reader. It
has a ton of info on lots of different Beat artists. Good luck with your
project.
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Anthony wrote:
> Beat-lers,
>
> My name is Anthony and I'm from Mountain View California. I am 16
> and I go to Mountain View High School. I've been reading a lot of the
> stuf on Beat-L for about a month now to get an idea of what people of
> today think of the beats. Myself and three classmates of mine are doing
> an in-depth, year long research project on the beats and their effect on
> America. The classes that are involved are two separate but linked
> classes (the teachers work closely together): U.S. History A.P. and
> American Lieterature Honors. Our English teacher has been doing the
> project for 20 years and the idea is that each group picks a topic,
> researches it, and comes up with a unique thesis to present to the class
> in their final 45 minute presentation.
> The current state of our research is that we have read a lot of the
> beat material: OTR, Dharma Bums, Ginsberg poetry, Snyder Poetry,
> anthologies like Birth of the Beat Generation by Stephen Watson, with
> Naked Lunch and Junky next on the list. We have listened to the CD
> collection "The Beat Generation," seen the movie Naked Lunch, taken an
> excursion up to City Lights, and read a lot of stuff on the net like Lit
> Kicks and BigTable. We also plan to interview Lawrence Ferlinghetti
> within the next few weeks.
> Our current thesis basically propounds the following ideas:
>
> The beats were important fighters for individual freedom in
> America. They used their non-conformist beliefs, attitudes, and
> practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive
> society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and
> expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals
> (e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of
> conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism. The beats sparked a
> much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more
> individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and
> later the hippies in the 60's. And finally, the beats invaluably
> contributed to American literature with their new, innovative,
> spontaneous style.
>
> We would love any feedback from all of you who know so much about
> these guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you
> might have.
>
> Thanks for reading my long message!
>
> --
>
> Anthony
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:27:57 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:33:50 -0500 from
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
OTR was already in the works by the time Howl was censored. Kerouac's
book probably still would have done very well when it was published
becasue of Millstien's review in the New York Times. Ginsberg's
activism in anti-war and gay rights causes also helped to promote a Beat
movement. Nevertheless, the obscenity trial certainly got the beats a
lot of media attention and helped attract new readers.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:47:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Leon Tabory wrote:
>
> Let me guess David - A new Beat-L column?
not a bad idea. remind me to do something once a week or so.
An 007 movie?
Bond, gypsy davey Bond!
No, not the end,
> please.
Zyprexa is my new medicine. I think it's pretty good stuff.
HOW HAVE YOU BEEN?
gypsy davey
>
> leon?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 9:33 PM
> Subject: Zyprexa blues #235
>
> >i slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard
> >Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest
> >comedy. i head to the bar and say i want coffee and the cat says he
> >ain't got none. he's closing early - AGAIN! - so i take water and turn
> >just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy
> >of America in search of Itself. He passes on water. We talk about the
> >old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed
> >coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places
> >like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke
> >a Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore. we get in a white car and
> >drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled
> >up and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn. Where can
> >we go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not
> >murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an
> >all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks
> >me square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and
> >if you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that
> >they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide
> >the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking
> >face. what THIS TIME i say. He LAUGHS a Neal laugh. I laugh back and
> >we drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top. A quiet night on
> >the spot where you can see seven water towers. I asked him about the
> >Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i
> >says. And Neal just LAUGHS. Some folks are pretty pissed off that it
> >wasn't really you in the movie. He says he auditioned but didn't make
> >it past the first cut. Suddenly I'm serious. Neal, if you had it all
> >to do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life. He
> >smiles and says Sure. No laughter - just a Neal Cassady smile. Now i'm
> >alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking
> >another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon
> >for Denver. Nothing big - just a tear. I'll miss this spot with the
> >souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old
> >country before 1956. I drive home quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the
> >sound of Silence" on the radio. my parking place is waiting for me and
> >i have coffee at my kitchen gallery. i head to the bathroom and take my
> >nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol. i sit down at the keyboard. i
> >type......
> >
> >January 22nd, 1998
> >david b. rhaesa
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:53:32 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> I was reading an article by R.G. Peterson, "A Picture Is a Fact:
> Wittgenstein and Naked Lunch" in which Peterson noted the name
> "Heiderberg" and speculated that it was a combination of Heidegger and
> Heisenberg. But when I went to look up the passage in my copy of NL,
> it said "Heisenberg". So I dug out my older edition of NL, and sure
> enough, there it was "Heiderberg". So where there's one change,
> there's likely to be more.
also Heidelberg probably is spliced into the Heiderberg somehow. I was
thinking that a synthesis of Heisenberg and Heidegger would be
interesting. I would suggest splicing Question Concerning Technology
and other essays with Heisenberg's collection in the World Perspectives
series.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:21:34 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
Content-Type: text/plain
nice, very nice.
-greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:20:35 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: DELETE MY PREV. MESSAGE (UNLESS YOU'RE ANTHONY)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sorry listers.... that previous message should have gone to anthony and
only anthony.
-Greg
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:09:26 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: bad liver kerouac connection?
Comments: To: Discussion of Tom Waits <RAINDOGS@LISTSERV.HEA.IE>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>On http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/BeatsInRock.html it says that
>'Waits also sings of Kerouac in a song called "Bad Liver and a Broken
>Heart (in Lowell)."'
>
>Is this true? I don't see any Kerouac reference in there, but I haven't
>actually read anything by Kerouac yet. I've tried reading On the Road
>three or four times. I never get any further than, say, fifty pages...
>
>This bothers me, somehow.
i find that reading him aloud, or at least mouthing the words, is
very helpful. i'm reading _desolation angels_ these days when i have time.
this one is about the time he spent as a fire lookout on a mountain called
desolation peak. it has a killing time kind of feel to it; but the
language is still very fluid and full of energy.
i've never heard about 'bad liver and a broken heart' being
about jack. the "in lowell" subtitle makes sense since that's were he was
born. i don't know who "kath" is supposed to refer to. later in his life,
kerouac returned to lowell and married a friend from childhood, stella
sampas.
i've always identified with this song. the title
relates to two of my perpetual problems. i love that "sharp as a razor and
soft as a prayer" line.
KEN
Bad Liver and a Broken Heart (in Lowell)
Well I got a bad liver and a broken heart,
Yeah, I drunk me a river since you tore me apart
And I don't have a drinking problem, 'cept when I can't get a drink
And I wish you'd a-known her, we were quite a pair,
She was sharp as a razor and soft as a prayer
So welcome to the continuing saga,
She was my better half, and I was just a dog
And so here am I slumped, I've been chipped and I've been chumped on my stool
So buy this fool some spirits and libations, it's these railroad station bars
And all these conductors and the porters, and I'm all out of quarters
And this epitaph is the aftermath, yeah I choose my path, hey, come on, Kath,
He's a lawyer, he ain't the one for ya
No, the moon ain't romantic, it's intimidating as hell,
And some guy's trying to sell me a watch
And so I'll meet you at the bottom of a bottle of bargain Scotch
I got me a bottle and a dream, it's so maudlin it seems,
You can name your poison, go on ahead and make some noise
I ain't sentimental, this ain't a purchase, it's a rental, and it's purgatory,
And hey, what's your story, well I don't even care
'Cause I got my own double-cross to bear
And I'll see your Red Label, and I'll raise you one more,
And you can pour me a cab, I just can't drink no more,
'Cause it don't douse the flames that are started by dames,
It ain't like asbestos
It don't do nothing but rest us assured,
And substantiate the rumors that you've heard.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:34:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Susan L Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: bad liver kerouac connection?
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01b0ee88c8e2ce@[18.170.1.147]> from "Ken Ostrander" at
Jan 23, 98 01:09:26 pm
Content-Type: text/plain
> about jack. the "in lowell" subtitle makes sense since that's were he was
> born. i don't know who "kath" is supposed to refer to. later in his life,
> kerouac returned to lowell and married a friend from childhood, stella
> sampas.
> And all these conductors and the porters, and I'm all out of quarters
> And this epitaph is the aftermath, yeah I choose my path, hey, come on, Kath,
Maybe he just used the name Kath because not much rhymes with Stella???
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:06:36 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: winter queue (once popeye said W=W S=S)
In-Reply-To: <34C8BCFC.54@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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David Bruce Rhaesa says:
>also Heidelberg probably is spliced into the Heiderberg somehow. I was
>thinking that a synthesis of Heisenberg and Heidegger would be
>interesting. I would suggest splicing Question Concerning Technology
>and other essays with Heisenberg's collection in the World Perspectives
>series.
>
>dbr
>
amico mio
IWasStonedManyYearsAgo&TodayICannotRecognizedAnyDifference
AmongWITTGENSTEINandWELTANSHAAUNGisTheCatYouMetCalledSchopenhauer
OrSchrodingerOrTheMutantEngineLikeSpencerTracyOrTheAnarchistSpencer
ISawMyShadowABitLargeTodayWaitingForTheBusAndAllBusesGoToVeniceAndTheSun
EnlargeMyShadowTheSunEnlargedMyShadowIWasIntriguedByTheShadowTheNiteFallIn
several time i'm thinking WHO was the
real person who wrote "On The Road", t after the delegue
hey told me Jack Kerouac. several time hippies&doomin69
i was thinking if Allen Ginsberg is a fonda&hoppershoted
character in "The Town and the City" 1
950 (wrote 1946/49) the same years on the road. jack kerouac was
published in 1950 howl was published in 1956.
The Self built with myriad thoughts
from football to I Am That I Am
---allen ginsberg
(Auto Poetry)
who for Christ's sake
wrote those beat lit
and why censored? those flags
in the wind
rent car pl
ace queue b
uses the su
n fall down
western blu
e cable opt
ical though
ts sunset
the great conspirancy
get out of this plane
t
OhIKickThisCrashBarrierIveLostTheBus...!!!
saluti a tutti voi da
rinaldo quello che ha perso l'ultimo bus a adesso non sa piu'
cosa fare se non prendere a calci il guardrail, woohh!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:22:58 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: bad liver kerouac connection?
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01b0ee88c8e2ce@[18.170.1.147]> from "Ken Ostrander" at
Jan 23, 98 01:09:26 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >On http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/BeatsInRock.html it says that
> >'Waits also sings of Kerouac in a song called "Bad Liver and a Broken
> >Heart (in Lowell)."'
> >
> >Is this true? I don't see any Kerouac reference in there, but I haven't
> >actually read anything by Kerouac yet. I've tried reading On the Road
> >three or four times. I never get any further than, say, fifty pages...
Well, I don't know if this is true or not, but I guess I always
imagined the guy speaking in the song is supposed to be Kerouac,
or some reflection of him.
I just think this because of the title. Lowell signifies Jack -- it
can't be that Tom Waits didn't know this was Jack's hometown. Also,
I bet Jack did not have a great liver.
> Bad Liver and a Broken Heart (in Lowell)
>
> Well I got a bad liver and a broken heart,
> Yeah, I drunk me a river since you tore me apart
> And I don't have a drinking problem, 'cept when I can't get a drink
> And I wish you'd a-known her, we were quite a pair,
> She was sharp as a razor and soft as a prayer
> So welcome to the continuing saga,
> She was my better half, and I was just a dog
> And so here am I slumped, I've been chipped and I've been chumped on my stool
> So buy this fool some spirits and libations, it's these railroad station bars
> And all these conductors and the porters, and I'm all out of quarters
> And this epitaph is the aftermath, yeah I choose my path, hey, come on, Kath,
> He's a lawyer, he ain't the one for ya
> No, the moon ain't romantic, it's intimidating as hell,
> And some guy's trying to sell me a watch
> And so I'll meet you at the bottom of a bottle of bargain Scotch
> I got me a bottle and a dream, it's so maudlin it seems,
> You can name your poison, go on ahead and make some noise
> I ain't sentimental, this ain't a purchase, it's a rental, and it's purgatory,
> And hey, what's your story, well I don't even care
> 'Cause I got my own double-cross to bear
>
> And I'll see your Red Label, and I'll raise you one more,
> And you can pour me a cab, I just can't drink no more,
> 'Cause it don't douse the flames that are started by dames,
> It ain't like asbestos
> It don't do nothing but rest us assured,
> And substantiate the rumors that you've heard.
---------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
| |
| "Nothing is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |
| -- Joni Mitchell |
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:21:01 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Anthony--
The book Nancy is referring to is edited by Carole Tonkinson, and
was published by Riverhead Books. It sounds like you're doing an
incredible project! I just finished a semester's worth of research on
Allen Ginsberg for my freshman Honors Comp. class, and I plan to flesh
it out a little more and seek publication.
You'll be interviewing Ferlinghetti? Do e-mail me privately and let
me know how that goes, especially how you got in contact with him in
the first place, because I've thought about publishing my Ginsberg
anthology as an anthology about all the Beat poets.
Good luck,
Maggie
---Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU> wrote:
>
> Anthony-
> I did a similiar project for a similar class when I was a junior,
also. In
> my paper, I also talked about religion and the Beats and a good book
for
> that is "Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the Beat Generation". I forget who
> wrote it but it was a good resource. Also, check out the Beat
Reader. It
> has a ton of info on lots of different Beat artists. Good luck with
your
> project.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:45:53 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: pome(not mine/prolly nonbeat oh well
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
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while in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans
cafe, i bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon
soule
i was told she was in dire straits and needed the money. i opened it up
to this one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)
the musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.
scars
the scars upon my heart are growing sore
again. i feel their unhealed ridges tear.
they bleed in riptide as the bled before
the silent shock that taught me to ignore
the suffering became my first affair;
the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
the seam in my protective armor tore
away, and that was all the scars could bear
they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
my heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;
it will not heal like sores exposed to air.
the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
the open wounds these cicatrices wore
in pain cannot be hidden anywhere;
they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
the jail of my unloving has a door
which hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.
the scars upon my heart are growing sore;
the bleed in riptide as they bled before.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:45:16 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-01-23 16:22:11 EST, you write:
> You'll be interviewing Ferlinghetti? Do e-mail me privately and let
> me know how that goes,
yea, Anthony, perhaps you could post something to the whole list about your
Ferlinghetti interview, as i'm sure we'd all like to hear about it.
( am i wrong?)
--Ginny.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:21:39 -0800
Reply-To: eatcarpaccio@geocities.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Anthony <eatcarpaccio@GEOCITIES.COM>
Organization: Cad Corporation
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks to all of you who responded. I've read and considered all of
your input.
Since all of you seem interested, I think that I should explain a
little more about the actual project. This is not your typical
project. Our teacher has done of the project for over 20 years and has
students do all sorts of amazing stuff. The project is called DIVE.
That's not an acronym. It means "Dive into the Deep" and everyone
refers to it as Dive or, Dive projects, (we're having a "dive meeting",
etc.) The idea is to Dive into a topic in great detail and then teach
others what you have learned. The project is NOT a paper. At the end
of the half-year of research (ours will be in early May) we perform our
55 minute presentation that we will by then have scripted and prepared
for quite extensively. We plan to make our project multimedia with
videos of various stuff (hopefully of our Ferlinghetti interview if he
allows us to tape), recordings of the beats reading, jazz and bop music,
we hope to make an extensive set in one of the larger classrooms or
maybe a conference room or auditorium, we may dress like some of the
guys and we will certainly read poetry and book excerpts. We will also
possibly re-enact a shortened version of Six Gallery and we will
certainly have a lot of slides of beat pictures. And as usual we are
open to suggestions. During the presentation, I would estimate that the
audience will be about 75-100 people from our classes, past classes,
future classes, interested teachers and anyone else who wants to attend.
To answer Leon's questions...
1. Is the project popular with the students? ( I bet)
Depends if you have a good group and topic. I'd say about half do. We
sure do!
2. Names of the teachers?
Probably not a good idea without their permission.
3. What is the CAD Corporation and how is it related to you?
Hehe. This is not a real corporation. I made it up. It's a joke my
brother and I have. Sorry to disappoint you!
We're currently working on an outline of our research and we will soon
be writing our script both of which I will post on Beat-L. I will also
transcribe our interview with Ferlinghetti and post that.
To answer another question, our audience will have experienced a
pretty detailed history of the United States at that point well past the
beats. They will also be familiar with Whitman and other avant-guard
stuff, so we are lucky in that respect.
--Anthony
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:38:56 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andre Gauthier <agauthi@CCO.NET>
Subject: Re: Vonnegut
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This is really off the subject of Beats now, but I had to tell you that a movie
is
in the works based on Breakfast of Champions -- starring Bruce Willis! Ugh.
Do you have any idea of when this is coming out?
Janelle
Free web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:46:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Crossroads
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Robert Johnson's Crossroads
(A tribute to a Blues Man from the crossroads.)
Columbia 22
Went down to the Crossroads
Camden 25
Tried to flag a ride.
Sumter 22
Got hellhounds on my trail.
Orangeburg 25
Have my sweet rider by my side.
Crossroads
Jesus Saves
Turn to Jesus or Burn in Hell
Wilson.
Will son.
Will's son.
Will's son cross.
Will's son cross road.
Will's son cross roads.
Will's son cross roads Jesus.
Will's son cross roads Jesus saves.
Will's son cross roads Jesus saves Columbia.
(No he didn't Sherman burnt it! That is why you can't trace title
beyond 1865.)
Will's son cross roads Jesus saves Camden.
(Well he might have, ask Cornwallis!)
Will's son cross roads Jesus saves Sumter.
(Depends, one wing in the Persian Gulf tonight.)
Will's son cross roads Jesus saves Orangeburg.
(Crack alleys, murder rate, unemployment, kids with guns, not likely.)
Will's son cross roads Jesus saves or Burn in Hell.
Me, I just want to get some gas and take a piss.
But, it is spooky here, at a crossroads that is exactly 22, 25, 22, 25.
Did Robert Johnson meet ole scratch here, or does Jesus Save?
Tried to flag a ride.
That's what the sign says.
No body seemed to know me.
But maybe that was back in Wilson.
House down by the riverside.
Will cross road son.
Break in on a dollar most any place she goes.
Will road cross son.
They all just passed me by.
Son will cross road.
Got tamales and they are red hot, yeah got em for sale.
Son cross Will Road.
Dead shirmps blues.
Son road cross Will.
Believe it's much too light.
Cross road son will.
She got a mortgage on my body.
Crossroads.
And a lien on my soul.
--
I was just thinking about the perfect crossroads I drove through on
Tuesday night on the way home. And, I was listening to Jimi Hendrix (My
arrows are made of desire from far away as Jupiter's sulpher mines, way
down by the methane sea. I have a hummingbird that will hum so loud,
that you will think you are losing your mind.) when this just evolved.
I hope you will find it amusing. After all, I am not sure if it
pertains to Jack's percentage of homosexual acts vs heterosexual acts,
but Jung probably already discussed that. Or at least, I think he meant
to.
BTW, most of the lines are either the best I can remember from Robert
Johnson, or they are in a sense cut ups as I went by a place called
Wilson and was trying to imagine a cut up with it just before I went
down to the crossroads.
Have a good weekend.
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:42:32 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Crossroads
MIME-Version: 1.0
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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> BTW, most of the lines are either the best I can remember from Robert
> Johnson,
you did get a lot of that faustian Robert Johnson's lyrics right.
i REALLY REALLY liked this Bentz.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:06:10 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: bad liver kerouac connection?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
> I just think this because of the title. Lowell signifies Jack -- it
> can't be that Tom Waits didn't know this was Jack's hometown. Also,
> I bet Jack did not have a great liver.
i agree with you - he must have known, or he wouldn't be singing a song
called 'jack and neil'. right?
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:06:15 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: L1wannabe <L1wannabe@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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thought you'd enjoy the poem
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:21:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: L1wannabe <L1wannabe@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac as poet
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Please...dear Sir re-read your Kerouac. This man developed an intense plot
line. I hate to interrupt the list however I could not sit by idly whithout
responding.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:08:52 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: winter queue (once popeye said W=W S=S)
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rinnaldo: a fest for the eyes and a fest for the words. fest as in festival.
mc
> amico mio
> IWasStonedManyYearsAgo&TodayICannotRecognizedAnyDifference
> AmongWITTGENSTEINandWELTANSHAAUNGisTheCatYouMetCalledSchopenhauer
> OrSchrodingerOrTheMutantEngineLikeSpencerTracyOrTheAnarchistSpencer
> ISawMyShadowABitLargeTodayWaitingForTheBusAndAllBusesGoToVeniceAndTheSun
> EnlargeMyShadowTheSunEnlargedMyShadowIWasIntriguedByTheShadowTheNiteFallIn
>
> several time i'm thinking WHO was the
> real person who wrote "On The Road", t after the delegue
> hey told me Jack Kerouac. several time hippies&doomin69
> i was thinking if Allen Ginsberg is a fonda&hoppershoted
> character in "The Town and the City" 1
> 950 (wrote 1946/49) the same years on the road. jack kerouac was
> published in 1950 howl was published in 1956.
>
> The Self built with myriad thoughts
> from football to I Am That I Am
> ---allen ginsberg
> (Auto Poetry)
> who for Christ's sake
> wrote those beat lit
> and why censored? those flags
> in the wind
> rent car pl
> ace queue b
> uses the su
> n fall down
> western blu
> e cable opt
> ical though
> ts sunset
> the great conspirancy
> get out of this plane
> t
>
> OhIKickThisCrashBarrierIveLostTheBus...!!!
>
> saluti a tutti voi da
> rinaldo quello che ha perso l'ultimo bus a adesso non sa piu'
> cosa fare se non prendere a calci il guardrail, woohh!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:14:34 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
MIME-Version: 1.0
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david: this is just wonderful stream of consciousness and so detailed and
expressive. wonderful wonderful.
mc
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> i slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard
> Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest
> comedy. i head to the bar and say i want coffee and the cat says he
> ain't got none. he's closing early - AGAIN! - so i take water and turn
> just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy
> of America in search of Itself. He passes on water. We talk about the
> old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed
> coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places
> like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke
> a Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore. we get in a white car and
> drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled
> up and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn. Where can
> we go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not
> murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an
> all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks
> me square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and
> if you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that
> they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide
> the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking
> face. what THIS TIME i say. He LAUGHS a Neal laugh. I laugh back and
> we drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top. A quiet night on
> the spot where you can see seven water towers. I asked him about the
> Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i
> says. And Neal just LAUGHS. Some folks are pretty pissed off that it
> wasn't really you in the movie. He says he auditioned but didn't make
> it past the first cut. Suddenly I'm serious. Neal, if you had it all
> to do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life. He
> smiles and says Sure. No laughter - just a Neal Cassady smile. Now i'm
> alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking
> another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon
> for Denver. Nothing big - just a tear. I'll miss this spot with the
> souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old
> country before 1956. I drive home quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the
> sound of Silence" on the radio. my parking place is waiting for me and
> i have coffee at my kitchen gallery. i head to the bathroom and take my
> nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol. i sit down at the keyboard. i
> type......
>
> January 22nd, 1998
> david b. rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:27:06 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: the california scrambled eggs time zone rag
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
friends and others:
to all who are interested in hearing of my adventures, i am still
whacked out from the intensity and the momentum of the train. no
insomnia, thankfully, but not much poem or prose at the present time. so
instead,
> i thought i'd send my brakeman's bandana. or a banana why i am not a
> painter, oranges, the egg on the bridge and WCW's walk thereone.
> and questions of what comprises 'real poetry' in this unreal
> surreal life, the answer to which i cannot reply.
> mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:22:34 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: bad liver kerouac connection?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ksenija Simic wrote:
>
> >
> > I just think this because of the title. Lowell signifies Jack -- it
> > can't be that Tom Waits didn't know this was Jack's hometown. Also,
> > I bet Jack did not have a great liver.
>
> i agree with you - he must have known, or he wouldn't be singing a song
> called 'jack and neil'. right?
>
> ksenija
Tom Waits knew. No question!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:17:48 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Burroughs & Antonioni.
In-Reply-To: <34C8BCFC.54@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Tonino Guerra (an italian screenwriter friend to Antonioni)
writes in his diary:
"In London, [was 1967?] in a private apartment i have seen Burroughs
along with young people smoking strange cigarettes.
I was about to accept a cigarette but Michelangelo Antonioni
has beaten on my hands and he waved me sign to decline."
amici,
there's any further info bout Burroughs Antonioni connection?
saluti,
Rinaldo.
--------
"Lo sai perche' e' l'eta' piu' bella?
Perche' non ce la ricordiamo"
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:25:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Biblio
In-Reply-To: <706e2e69.34c9ce3b@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:19 AM 1/24/98 EST, you wrote:
>Dear Bill,
>Yes, I agree with you, the piece seemed inappropriate in an issue devoted to
>notable deaths of 1997. The New York Times is free to print whatever they
>want, of course and I didn't find the article inaccurate, just out of place.
>They consistently want to make some point about the Beats not being quite
>legitimate, I guess. Seems strange to tell a story about something that
Allen
>was involved with as a young person and not even mention that he was a poet,
>cultural leader or political activist. I guess they feel the most important
>thing about Ginsberg is that he allowed his friend Herbert Huncke to store
>stolen materials in his apartment when he was 20 years old.
>I don't think they're going to catch on to his importance for a few more
>years.
>Yours,
>Bill Morgan
>
>
You know all of those articles in that issue of the magazine, were off the
Beam slightly. They wanted to print something besides the same old rehashed
dreck. Every article in that issue had an odd slant. The Times is the same
operation that put Allen Ginsberg's obituary on its front page. He did not
go unnoticed.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:14:49 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> david: this is just wonderful stream of consciousness and so detailed and
> expressive. wonderful wonderful.
> mc
>
thanks marie. i'm happy with it as far as it goes. much better with
detail than usual. i caught myself and blocked off many of my usual
"and"s which probably helped provide the "bop" to it. Some of my
previous typing with its "and" "and" "and" style had been rightly
accused of having "no Bop." Maybe if i get the bop down on the keyboard
i'll even be able to tell my left from right foot in using the aerobics
video my father gave me for Xmas!!!!!!!!!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:25:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: :Altered art-re: Anne Bacon Soule
In-Reply-To: <199801232347.SAA19495@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Marie and any interested Beat-list members:
When I saw the (non caps mine) in the Anne Bacon Soule poem you provided
for the list I wondered which words you had removed the caps from. Then I
wondered if, because you appear to never use caps in your posts, whether
you have the right to extend your STYLE to another when reproducing a piece
of art.
I'd appreciate any thoughts listers have about this.
Thanks,
j grant
>while in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans
>cafe, i bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon
>soule
> i was told she was in dire straits and needed the money. i opened it up
>to this one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)
>the musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.
>
>scars
>
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore
>again. i feel their unhealed ridges tear.
>they bleed in riptide as the bled before
>
>the silent shock that taught me to ignore
>the suffering became my first affair;
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
>
>the seam in my protective armor tore
>away, and that was all the scars could bear
>they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>
>my heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;
>it will not heal like sores exposed to air.
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
>
>the open wounds these cicatrices wore
>in pain cannot be hidden anywhere;
>they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>
>the jail of my unloving has a door
>which hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore;
>the bleed in riptide as they bled before.
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:31:11 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: bad liver kerouac connection?
In-Reply-To: <34CA1172.125A@eunet.yu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> I bet Jack did not have a great liver.
>
> i agree with you - he must have known, or he wouldn't be singing a song
>called 'jack and neil'. right?
>
>ksenija
>
>
kerouac says:
i got my idea for spontaneous prose from letters from cassady
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:19:26 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: the best of Marie Countryman poetry
In-Reply-To: <34C8BCFC.54@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Marie says:
friends and others:
to all who are interested in hearing of my adventures, i am still
whacked out from the intensity and the momentum of the train. no
insomnia, thankfully, but not much poem or prose at the present time. so
instead,
Rinaldo replies:
i've archived yr following gem prose/poem/writing
in my bright memory section of the brain or in the
universal brain, thanks,
--------------------------------------------------
hi by Marie Countryman
didja ever walk down the streets
of your neighborhood
with ears wide open,
quiet quietly
and hear the two guys up the hill arguing,
as usual, over whose fielstone wall is best
the sounds of wet leaves dry leaves
squishy and crackling
tugging at your nostrils to open just a bit more
to inhale
to savor
this autumnal fragrance
didya just stop
and
shut your eyes and all movement
and surfed the autumnal audio waves?
moms talking to toddlers wafting out of windows
still open to the night breeze
birds land on branches, branches creaking
the noise your feet make on the cement gritty sidwalk
a mufller problem
that to date had been just a part of my white noise
up here in my apartment
suddently becomes a
particular muffler patter
easily distinguished
real car, real driver, real muffler problem,
don t look
you know that car, it lives two houses over
the noises of living:
geese in formation overhead
smaller hardier winter northland birds
cheeping
and there up overhead, squirrels
squabble as i scribble
hey you guys, have any of you ever done that ?
...........anyone?
Thu, 6 Nov 1997
--------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:50:17 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David
In-Reply-To: <34CA1172.125A@eunet.yu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Just received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought the
list might be interested.
j grant
>Subject: JCNEWS: Pres. Clinton's injudicious indiscretions
>Sender: jcnews@yosemite.leepfrog.com
>Are there parallels between the alleged involvement with Ms. Lewinsky and
with Abishag, the young woman who attended King David when he was old and
ailing? (I Kings I:1-4)
>The words of Robert Frost come to mind: PROVIDE, PROVIDE
The witch that came (the withered hag)
To wash the steps with pail and rag,
Was once the baauty Abishag,
The picture pride of Hollywood.
Too many fall from great and good
For you to doubt the likelihood.
Die early and avoid the fate
Or if predestined to die late
Make up your mind to die in state.
Make the whole stock exchange Your own!
If need be occupy a throne,
Where nobody can call YOU crone.
Some have relied on what they knew;
Others on being simply true.
What worked for them might work for you.
No memory of having starred
Atones for later disregard,
Or keeps the end from being hard.
Better to go down dignified
With boughten friendship at your side
Than none at all. PROVIDE, PROVIDE!.
Signed: Earl Rose
>earl rose <erose@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:02:39 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 24-Jan-98 11:48:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM writes:
<< Just received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought the
list might be interested.
j grant
>>
Response from one listmember: Wrong. I am NOT interested. It's hard enough to
sift through non-Beat posts on this list without the addition of a news item
that's already on every other bandwave in the universe.
Take note, Susan and others. Watch this topic become a thread and source of
contention among us all!
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:25:15 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David
i'm ignoring the whole damn thing. i refuse to read anything in the papers
about it or watch the news. and this is all i will say on the subject.
DEFINITELY NOT beat.
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David
>In a message dated 24-Jan-98 11:48:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM writes:
>
><< Just received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought
the
> list might be interested.
> j grant
> >>
>
>Response from one listmember: Wrong. I am NOT interested. It's hard enough
to
>sift through non-Beat posts on this list without the addition of a news
item
>that's already on every other bandwave in the universe.
>
>Take note, Susan and others. Watch this topic become a thread and source of
>contention among us all!
>
>Maggie
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:47:51 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: :Altered art-re: Anne Bacon Soule
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
hi jo:
i wasn't thinking in terms of altered art, just was wanting to share the pome
with others. i have some bad carpal tunnel syndrome; if you go over most of my
previous posts of others works, you will probably find the same. it's e mail,
i'm not claiming anything or altering any thing to make any point. it's just
that if i had to use caps, i'd be writing a lot less. and sharing very few
gems among the rubble.
just me
if this is a big issue for you and not others, perhaps we can back channel. in
fact, as it is really a non beat issue, i'd appreciate private email, as we
have been swamped by too much off topic stuff of late.
if you don't think it's off topic, then continue the thread.
didn't mean nuthin by it.
sorry if you misread.
mc
jo grant wrote:
> Marie and any interested Beat-list members:
>
> When I saw the (non caps mine) in the Anne Bacon Soule poem you provided
> for the list I wondered which words you had removed the caps from. Then I
> wondered if, because you appear to never use caps in your posts, whether
> you have the right to extend your STYLE to another when reproducing a piece
> of art.
>
> I'd appreciate any thoughts listers have about this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> j grant
>
> >while in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans
> >cafe, i bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon
> >soule
> > i was told she was in dire straits and needed the money. i opened it up
> >to this one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)
> >the musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.
> >
> >scars
> >
> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore
> >again. i feel their unhealed ridges tear.
> >they bleed in riptide as the bled before
> >
> >the silent shock that taught me to ignore
> >the suffering became my first affair;
> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
> >
> >the seam in my protective armor tore
> >away, and that was all the scars could bear
> >they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
> >
> >my heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;
> >it will not heal like sores exposed to air.
> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
> >
> >the open wounds these cicatrices wore
> >in pain cannot be hidden anywhere;
> >they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
> >
> >the jail of my unloving has a door
> >which hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.
> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore;
> >the bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:33:36 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Bad Liver & a Broken Heart
Anyone who has any doubts about the Tom Wait's alllusion to Kerouac should chec
k the album jacket for "Small Change." There's a picture of Kerouac on the dre
sser.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:00:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: :Altered art-re: Anne Bacon Soule
In-Reply-To: <199801242050.PAA15919@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thought writers might respond with thoughts. Whether they would approve, or
disapprove if a work of theirs was altered--E-mail or no. Not a big deal at
all. Just curious.
j grant
>hi jo:
>i wasn't thinking in terms of altered art, just was wanting to share the pome
>with others. i have some bad carpal tunnel syndrome; if you go over most of my
>previous posts of others works, you will probably find the same. it's e mail,
>i'm not claiming anything or altering any thing to make any point. it's just
>that if i had to use caps, i'd be writing a lot less. and sharing very few
>gems among the rubble.
>just me
>if this is a big issue for you and not others, perhaps we can back channel. in
>fact, as it is really a non beat issue, i'd appreciate private email, as we
>have been swamped by too much off topic stuff of late.
>if you don't think it's off topic, then continue the thread.
>didn't mean nuthin by it.
>sorry if you misread.
>mc
>
>jo grant wrote:
>
>> Marie and any interested Beat-list members:
>>
>> When I saw the (non caps mine) in the Anne Bacon Soule poem you provided
>> for the list I wondered which words you had removed the caps from. Then I
>> wondered if, because you appear to never use caps in your posts, whether
>> you have the right to extend your STYLE to another when reproducing a piece
>> of art.
>>
>> I'd appreciate any thoughts listers have about this.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> j grant
>>
>> >while in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans
>> >cafe, i bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon
>> >soule
>> > i was told she was in dire straits and needed the money. i opened it up
>> >to this one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)
>> >the musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.
>> >
>> >scars
>> >
>> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore
>> >again. i feel their unhealed ridges tear.
>> >they bleed in riptide as the bled before
>> >
>> >the silent shock that taught me to ignore
>> >the suffering became my first affair;
>> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
>> >
>> >the seam in my protective armor tore
>> >away, and that was all the scars could bear
>> >they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>> >
>> >my heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;
>> >it will not heal like sores exposed to air.
>> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
>> >
>> >the open wounds these cicatrices wore
>> >in pain cannot be hidden anywhere;
>> >they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>> >
>> >the jail of my unloving has a door
>> >which hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.
>> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore;
>> >the bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>>
>> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
>> Details on-line at
>> http://www.bookzen.com
>> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:23:26 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
jo grant wrote:
>
> Just received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought the
> list might be interested.
> j grant
>
> >Are there parallels between the alleged involvement with Ms. Lewinsky and
> with Abishag, the young woman who attended King David when he was old and
> ailing? (I Kings I:1-4)
>
> >The words of Robert Frost come to mind: PROVIDE, PROVIDE
though i doubt that the parallel is very strong - i must admit i found
the cross-post amusing. i definitely follow politics and enjoy the
gifts and foibles of politicians. it seems that the new beat
definitions tend to eliminate anything even tangentially political from
the pantheon. i suppose the use of clippings concerning the Vietnam War
would have made Allen's Wichita Vortex Sutra unbeat and certainly his
involvement at the 1968 Democratic National Convention would be
considered treasonous to the beat cause.
thanks for the cross-post. i must admit i was on the brink of shifting
back to digest form because the Beat-L was tending to be just bickering
about what could be talked about (despite Bill's kind way of measuring
the scope of the list) and i'm glad that some amusing comparisons
connecting literature and real life today was thrown my way. Perhaps
there is hope for the list in 1998 afterall.
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:24:35 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
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I'm taking a moment to type out the text of this first poem in Planet
News by Allen Ginsberg in hopes of beginning a heated dialogue not only
about this poem but about Allen Ginsberg, his writing and his place in
history. We have complained about the poor treatment Allen received in
year end reviews -- yet, we have failed to do any better. So in tribute
to Allen:
Who Will Take Over the Universe?
A bitter cold winter night
conspirators at cafe tables
discovering mystic jails
The Revolution in America
already begun not bombs but sit
down strikes on top submarines,
on sidewalks nearby City Hall --
How many families control the States?
Ignore the Government,
send your protest to Clint Murchison.
The Indians won their case with Judge McFate
Peyote safe in Arizona --
In my room the sick junky
shivers on the 7th day
Tearful, reborn to the Winter.
Che Guevera has a big cock
Castro's balls are pink --
The Ghost of John F. Dulles hangs
over America like dirty linen
draped over the wintery red sunset,
Fumes of Unconscious Gas
emanate from his corpse
and hypnotize the Egyptian intellectuals --
He grinds his teeth in horror & crosses his
thigh bones over his skull
Dust flows out of his asshole
his hands are full of bacteria
The worm is at his eye --
He's declaring conterrevolutions in
the Worm-world,
my cat threw him up last
Thursday.
& Forrestal flew out his window like an Eagle --
America's spending money to overthrow the Man.
Who are the rulers of the earth?
January 6, 1961
may the discussions begin!!!!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:55:17 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David
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In a message dated 24-Jan-98 4:44:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, race@MIDUSA.NET
writes:
<< it seems that the new beat definitions tend to eliminate anything even
tangentially political from the pantheon. i suppose the use of clippings
concerning the Vietnam War would have made Allen's Wichita Vortex Sutra unbeat
and certainly his involvement at the 1968 Democratic National Convention would
be
considered treasonous to the beat cause. >>
What "new beat definitions," David? I think you're really stretching here.
Jo Grant's post was entirely un-Beat. Comments about Ginsberg, in any context,
are entirely Beat.
For those of us who don't get the list in digest form, complaining about off-
topic posts is perhaps especially necessary and legitimate.
I don't understand why this concept is so hard for some people to grasp. We
really had a few days of great discussion rolling, and I, for one, was glad
for it and a participant in it.
Perhaps even more relevant was the fact that among the postings there were so
many different authors, posts by people who normally don't post. They came out
to discuss Kerouac as poet and other Beat-related stuff. It was refreshing!!!
It was exciting!!
Old-timers to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to list
content. The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily have been sent
to you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.
I did not.
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:07:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman <the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM>
Subject: pardon the minor spam. . .
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Hey Beat-l,
I figured there was a few of you who might be interested in my website, =
so I'm extended an invitation for all fans of John Coltrane to come by =
and see what's going on at The Trane Station ( =
http://www.lunatic-media.com/tranestation ).
Pardon the minor spam,
Bruce
------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BD2903.A8254F20
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Hey =
Beat-l,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>I figured there was a =
few of you who=20
might be interested in my website, so I'm extended an invitation for all =
fans of=20
John Coltrane to come by and see what's going on at The Trane Station ( =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.lunatic-media.com/tranestation">http://www.lunatic-med=
ia.com/tranestation</A>=20
).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pardon the minor spam,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bruce</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BD2903.A8254F20--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:26:05 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David
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As tempted as I am to simply ignore the Lewinsky/Clinton thread in the hopes
that it dies, I will say that the only beat connection here for me would be that
the cultural revolution we associate with the beats is far from complete.
Obviously Cotton Mather and his spiritual descendants still thrive, or this non-
story, which at best should be a minor chortle, would not be making America and
her sexual dementia the laughingstock of the world.
James Stauffer
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:30:05 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David
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Tsk, Tsk, David, your knuckles have been slapped! An old timer like you
offending
in such egregious fashion!
James Stauffer
IDDHI wrote: . . .
> Old-timers to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to list
> content. The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily have been sent
> to you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.
>
> I did not.
> MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:46:34 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Back to Allen (was Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David)
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James Stauffer wrote:
>
> Tsk, Tsk, David, your knuckles have been slapped! An old timer like you
> offending
> in such egregious fashion!
>
> James Stauffer
>
> IDDHI wrote: . . .
Actually, i felt that the comments (except for me being an old-timer --
less than a year under my belt) made quite a bit of sense. I offered
the poem from Planet News as a sort of assertive reply hoping that all
with memoires of Allen or thoughts and beliefs too knotted up in the
emotion of last spring will join in a re-eulogizing of Allen (and
perhaps later or between William as well). My intention is for the
Planet News poem to provide a direct springboard for those who prefer
critical commentary -- but also because within the poem are glimpses of
so many images which might LINK to other passages in other poems or
other stories about Allen and perhaps the type of fun and comraderie
which increased the traffic excitedly over cybersex before remembering
we'd lost the scope can be re-directed and electrify a wonderful eulogy
until Valentine's Day and beyond of that great Cupid of the Beat
Generation Allen Ginsberg.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:59:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Masters of the Beat Universe
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Jo Grant's post was entirely un-Beat. Even though I think you're really
stretching here.
Are there parallels between the alleged involvement with Ms. Lewinsky
and
with Abishag, the young woman who attended King David when he was old
and
ailing, even if she is just "Saluting the Meat God of XX Century..."
[AG] And it is my firm believe that everything posted to this list is
beat, everything. Further, "[t]he reader should know that this is just
a collection of dreams that I scribbled ... ." [JK]
Comments about Ginsberg, in any context, are entirely Beat, but
I suppose the use of clippings concerning the Vietnam War would have
made Allen's Wichita Vortex Sutra unbeat and certainly his involvement
at the 1968 Democratic National Convention would be considered
treasonous to the beat cause. "The Earth is Saved! Next Number!" [AG]
Complaining about offtopic posts is perhaps especially necessary and
legitimate. "Some have relied on what they knew; Others on being simply
true. What worked for them might work for you." [RF] "There's no
rain, there's no me, (there's no such thing as beat list topics) I'm
telling you man sure as shit. [JK] I don't understand why this concept
is so hard for some people to grasp. "I could say a lots more but ain't
got time or sense." [JK]
Perhaps even more relevant was the fact that among the postings there
were so many different authors, posts by people who normally don't
post. "Hey you guys, have any of you ever done that ?" [MC] I am NOT
interested. Watch this topic become a thread and source of contention
among us all! The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily
have been sent to you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.
Old-timers to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to list
content. But, it seems that the new beat definitions tend to eliminate
anything even tangentially political from the pantheon. My apologies to
the list once again. Then again, the list can "Bite my naked nut, roll
my bones" [JK], cause I decide what is beat, not you. After all, I have
been beaten. But, I will say with a "touch of vocal flattery" [AG],
that when I see a beat list post, I "open the envelope quickly." [WW]
Then I wondered if, because you appear to never use anything beat in
your posts, whether you have the right to extend your STYLE to another
when reproducing a piece of sacred art. After all, kerouac says: i got
my idea for spontaneous prose from letters from cassady". Jazz killed
itself, but don't let (the beat list) kill itself. [JK]
These beat list posts are not beat, nor are they off-topic, they simply
are. If you wish, make them cease to exist with the touch of a key, you
control the universe known to you. Go, cat go. Carl Perkins is dead.
Blow cat blow. Jr. Wells is dead. No, cat no. Luther Allison has
died. The BEAT goes on, even though Sonny Bono is dead.
Show me the money.
--
AG = Allen Ginsberg quotes
RF = Robert Frost quotes
JK = Jack Kerouac quotes
WW = Walt Whitman quotes
MC = Marie Countryman
Also, some from Joe Grant, Marie, Rinaldo, me, David and Maggie.
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:42:44 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: sleeipng
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nights.
insominia, talking about the cure of my insomnia, all my anti medicine
friends and dear husband has insisted i take melatonin for a week or two
until my body regains some time sense of sleeping, worked instantly. so
we were talking about health and sleep, and someone quipped that william
probably didn't sleep well, partying etc. and my impression was except
for special events i thought he husbanded his rest very well. talking to
william, I got the impression of him laying quietly half awake,
listening to his house, most of the night. He said" i didn't hear the
furnace come on, right away i knew something was wrong, went and looked
and there was water every where. Later after a sump pump was put in he
said, he woke up and didn't hear it working and called wayne and he got
it going right away. another time he said, he heard noises early in the
morning in the kitchen that sounded heavier than one of the cats. It
turned out a huge coon had begun coming in the cat window (that was one
of the basement windows) up the stairs to the kitchen and feasting on
the cat food william put out. He described it as very large and snarly,
i don't recall how they solved that.
william's night.
half a sleep during his quiet.
listening to the sounds of the house.
he always took care of his sleep, furnace off, water everywhere,
sump pump put in, not sumping,
a heavier sound than cat,
racoon comingin to the k early morning night,
padding in his jams, fixing a special bowl
for one feline or both. muttering my pretty
pitch pace
so david, i have loved your posts, and i am listening in you say i
should posts these thoughts i have for while they may have no point it
is nice to share. i was stunned at the post that said that these were
ordinary guys that lucked out with a good publicity, the publicity
might of made or helped their careers but having meet both allen and
william, neither were ordinary men. But many people aren't ordinary,
many are. I am not an ordinary person, doesn't mean i will ever be
famous or influential etc. but to imagine thoseguys as ordinary men with
ordinary talents would be wrong. no meaning to the word extraordinary
if you think that. Extraordinary people scare, offend and stick out,
even if they are harmless and to not much point. They also are often
fun, imaginative, creative, and sometimes like allen and william men of
genius. I know that william is great to many for being the writer and
artist he was, to some this is much more important than the man he was.
I liked the man he was. I am not an intellectual, i have a native
intelligence and i love that both these guys had a will to really live
their lives.
hey my pen name has been patricia elliott for a long time, tonight i
thought of changing it to Pitch pace, i thought it was kind of bouncy.
love to you "old timers and young snappers.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:16:00 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980119020147.570950359A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
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To sum up:
> > There is an explicit reference that links (not attributes) Wittgenstein to
> > Burroughs' idea of the pre-recorded universe in The Ticket that Exploded:
> >
> > "Wittgenstein said: 'No proposition can contain itself as an argument' =
> > The only thing _not_ prerecorded in a prerecorded universe is the
> > prerecording itself which is to say _any_ recording that contains a random
> > factor" (TTE 166).
> Probably WSB was referring to these passages from the Tractatus:
>
> 3.331 From this observation we turn to Russell's 'theory of
> types'. It can be seen that Russell must be wrong, because
> he had to mention the meaning of signs when establishing
> the rules for them.
> 3.332 No proposition can make a statement about itself, because a
> propositional sign cannot be contained in itself (that is
> the whole 'theory of types').
> So here is what I think happened: WSB simply used this phrase as a
> point of departure for his own thoughts. I do this a lot myself;
> reading something, a sentence or turn of phrase sends me off on a long
> train of thought that ends up having little or nothing to do with the
> original context of whatever I was reading. Wittgenstein's writing
> here was nothing more than an initial impetus for WSB, as far as I
> can tell. It's going too far to say that this idea was "instrumental"
> or an "influence". And of course the whole "film" and "recording"
> terminology (as well as the reference to "random factors") are
> entirely WSB's own.
Perhaps I was overenthusiastic in my choice of terminology. Point of
departure is probably a better way of looking at it. Bickering over
quantitative measurements of a qualitative system probably isn't advisable
(as Burroughs would have said (and did, in The Cat Inside among other
places)). The importance of Burroughs' citing Wittgenstein can be
overlooked, however the importance of Burroughs' notion of the prerecorded
universe cannot. It stands along with Hassan I Sabbah's "Nothing is True.
Everything is Permitted" and the Algebra of Need as one of the dominant
metaphysical/philosophical notions in his oeuvre. It's also one of the
trickiest to puzzle out.
> > On Language Games:
> > Tim Murphy's new book posits that "[Burroughs' work] emerges from the
> > liminal space of literature with a 'plan of living' rather than an
> > endlessly deferred 'participation in language games' or an empty 'love for
> > the world through language' a la John Barth." He makes a pretty convincing
> > argument too, and I'd refer you to him for the rest of it.
>
> "There is no characteristic common to everything we call games....
> instead we find a complicated network of similarities and
> relationships overlapping and crisscrossing....This feature of 'game'
> is one which Wittgenstein believed is shared with language, and this
> made it particularly appropriate to call particular mini-languages
> 'language-games'. There were others. Most importantly, even though not
> all games have rules, the function of rules in many games has
> similarities with the function of rules in language. Language-games,
> like games, need have no external goal; they can be autonomous
> activities. But the comparison of language to a game was not meant to
> suggest that language was a pastime, or something trivial: on the
> contrary, it was meant to bring out the connection between the
> speaking of language and non-linguistic activites. Indeed the speaking
> of language is part of a communal activity, a way of living im society
> which W. calls a 'form of life'. It is thru sharing in the playing of
> language-games that language is connected with our life."
> (from Anthony Kenny, _Wittgenstein_, p163)
>
> So *any* use of language is a language-game. A language-game is not a
> trivial use of language, as opposed to some serious purpose. Whether
> you're playing the same language-game as someone else depends on what
> rules you are following, what goals you have in mind, whether you
> share certain sorts of training in how to use the language and a
> shared history of its use (i.e. a form of life). Of course it's
> possible to switch from one language-game to another, and this is no
> doubt what WSB was trying to do: to shift us from a language-game in
> which language functions as an instrument of control to another game
> in which it does not.
I think what Tim Murphy was saying above, and I agree with him on this,
is that Burroughs does not use language in the way characterised by Kenny:
"Language-games, like games, need have no external goal; they can
be autonomous activities". Burroughs always had a program, an
extra-linguistic objective beyond words: to cut control lines, to find
silence, to get into space. In all of these he aimed to get past the
autonomous language games of infinite deferral. Although I admit that I
used game in the sense of trivial, I still think Burroughs was trying to
get beyond a system of language that could be characterized as a game,
with rules (cut control lines, cut word lines...) Burroughs' fragmentation
of text, and rewriting of history does not stem from a belief in the
inefficacy of all production (like Baudrillard's triumph of abstract
mediation, the nullity of all signs) but out of a project for freedom
from linguistic and socio-historical control.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:36:44 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
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> David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> We have complained about the poor treatment Allen received in
> year end reviews -- yet, we have failed to do any better. So in
> tribute
> to Allen:
> Who Will Take Over the Universe?
>
> A bitter cold winter night
> conspirators at cafe tables
> discovering mystic jails
> The Revolution in America
> already begun not bombs but sit
> down strikes on top submarines,
> on sidewalks nearby City Hall --
> How many families control the States?
> Ignore the Government,
> send your protest to Clint Murchison.
> The Indians won their case with Judge McFate
> Peyote safe in Arizona --
> In my room the sick junky
> shivers on the 7th day
> Tearful, reborn to the Winter.
> Che Guevera has a big cock
> Castro's balls are pink --
> The Ghost of John F. Dulles hangs
> over America like dirty linen
> draped over the wintery red sunset,
> Fumes of Unconscious Gas
> emanate from his corpse
> and hypnotize the Egyptian intellectuals --
> He grinds his teeth in horror & crosses his
> thigh bones over his skull
> Dust flows out of his asshole
> his hands are full of bacteria
> The worm is at his eye --
> He's declaring conterrevolutions in
> the Worm-world,
> my cat threw him up last
> Thursday.
> & Forrestal flew out his window like an Eagle --
> America's spending money to overthrow the Man.
> Who are the rulers of the earth?
>
> January 6, 1961
OK David, let's take up a discussion of this poem. First of all, the
poem is intensely political and probably cannot be fully understood
without knowing who's who. My impression is that Ginsberg is saying the
revolution has begun and inciting people to take an active stance in
changing America.
"Ignore the Government, send your protest to Clint Murchison"--Murchison
was a billionaire industrialist, probably in Ginsberg's eyes one of the
people responsible for Molach--banks, buildings, oil reserves, real
estate.
The Indians won their case with Judge McFate, in other words, drugs are
OK for religious purposes, peyote can be smoked by Native Americans, but
what about the junky shivering in my room? "Tearful, reborn to the
Winter" takes one into the emotional necessity of addiction and the bleak
toll it has on the user. It also is saying loud and clear that if
all drugs were legal like peyote, much human suffering would be
eliminated.
"The Ghost of John F. Dulles hangs over America like dirty linen...Dust
flows out of his asshole, his hands are full of bacteria, The worm is at
his eye..." Dulles is dead two years at this point but the cold war with
China he perpetuated as secretary of state lives on. Ginsberg's own
views of peace, compassion, and harmony are at odds with the philosophy
of China as the enemy, with the idea of anyone taking over the universe.
"Forrestal flew out his window like an eagle"--also not a popular figure
with Ginsberg; he began the first U.S. peacetime draft in 1948 and then
1949, obsessed with invasion of America by its enemies, communists,
Russians, committed suicide by jumping out of his mental hospital window.
The whole sense I get from this image is that those making policy in
America are delusional; it's the same America we saw in Howl, the names
have changed but America is still on the wrong course, valuing money,
limiting personal freedoms (esp. in the area of drug use), making enemies
of Russia and China, and anyone in this country who sees other ideologies
and peoples as not entirely bad.
The most interesting question is perhaps: Who is the Man? Is it Castro?
And the irony in the title question? "Who Will Take Over the
Universe? "Who are the rulers of the earth?" Does America really have
the audacity to think of itself in this role? Ginsberg was a poet of
human emotions but he was also intensely political. He wanted people to
think about America, its goals, its ideals, and to tear apart those ideas
and actions that would have our nationalism become the world's
nationalism. The idea of who will take over the universe? America,
Russia, China? is at the heart of sixties movements. But now, with the
cold war waining, perhaps the most powerful image of the poem that
remains is the sick junky, shivering on the 7th day, "tearful, reborn to
winter."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:07:09 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>The Indians won their case with Judge McFate, in other words, drugs are
>OK for religious purposes, peyote can be smoked by Native Americans
I am very very pleased and happy to read this Diane. I have often wondered
if anyone would like beat literature or be interested in it if they hadn't
been at one time or another drug users or aficionados a la the ob's
(original beats).
Indians (or anyone else for that matter) never smoked Peyote, it is not
taken that way.
This ain't a knock on you for your lack of knowledge, but quite the opposite.
(Anyhoo as well, John Dulles was right more than Ginsy. But he did have
more information).
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:04:47 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
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Diane Carter wrote:
>
> OK David, let's take up a discussion of this poem. First of all, the
> poem is intensely political and probably cannot be fully understood
> without knowing who's who. My impression is that Ginsberg is saying the
> revolution has begun and inciting people to take an active stance in
> changing America.
Here AG is powerfully predictive of the future successes of passive
resistance in America fighting segregationist policies of City Halls and
even further of the peace movement of the 1970s and early 80s with the
idea of linking sit-down strikes to the image of the submarine. Are
these images pure prophecy or is Allen perhaps connecting the power of
resistance of some of the old communist and socialist thinking (not
always passive in manner) on which he was raised. Can anyone else here
Joe Hill singing Wobblie songs in between the lines of the first words
in this poem?
>
> "Ignore the Government, send your protest to Clint Murchison"--Murchison
> was a billionaire industrialist, probably in Ginsberg's eyes one of the
> people responsible for Molach--banks, buildings, oil reserves, real
> estate.
This reveals the paradox facing the radical in these early revolutionary
days -- for who are we to protest against, a government at the time led
by the Kennedy clan's money or the underlying greed-machine he
represents in Murchison. I found it interesting that the Kennedy nor
Eisenhower names did not appear in the poem so he seems to outwardly say
here that the true enemy and source of control does not reside in the
White House - but in the combination of corporate money and local city
halls. This in some ways suggests a radical notion of thinking globally
at the source of evil and acting locally to bring about change on the
sidewalks of communities around the Universe.
The idea of ignoring the government is very important. He specifically
says NOT to protest the government this would be a misdirection of
resistance. His answer is to ignore the government. But ignoring the
government is itself a form of protest. At about the same time as this
poem is written Saul Alinsky is writing in Rules for Radicals to bring
about change by entering the system and fighting from within. While AG
seems to accept this at the level of sidewalk citizenry he won't embrace
legitimizing the established system of government that protects the
Molochian machine. By 1968 he seems to have moved from this view to
what Buckley would consider a rather less naive view of participating in
the protests at the Democratic National Convention. Ironically, America
might have had it better if the radicals had followed the advice of this
poem. Ignoring the process of National Politics might have achieved a
better revolutionary purpose. As it was, the radical participation
seemed to split the democratic party into total political confusion and
assure the ascension of Poor Richard to the throne. It seems to me that
the line between Alinsky and Allen's viewpoints is better served by what
i recently told my brother would be a movement of psychedelic or junkie
republicans. In this manner the disruptions would have been
incorporated into the Republican camp balancing the hardliners and at
the same time ignoring the Democratic Convention and allowing the normal
procedures of Daley's Chicago to push through a candidate less Molochian
than Poor Richard.
>
> The Indians won their case with Judge McFate, in other words, drugs are
> OK for religious purposes, peyote can be smoked by Native Americans, but
> what about the junky shivering in my room? "Tearful, reborn to the
> Winter" takes one into the emotional necessity of addiction and the bleak
> toll it has on the user. It also is saying loud and clear that if
> all drugs were legal like peyote, much human suffering would be
> eliminated.
In the years since this poem the insanity regarding narcotics policy in
the Universe makes these lines pound back and forth in my brain. The
universe allows for methadone clinics but resists clean needle
programs. The government condemns tobacco but subsidizes the tobacco
farmers. Alcohol's failed prohibition leaves it untouched in the
building war on drugs and yet the government may (according to some news
reports i've posted) be playing both sides of this war. Some of my
friends have been excited that the terminology of warfare is not
warranted with regard to the chaos of America's narcotic's policy and i
just shake my head. AG is correct that bombs aren't the only
revolutionary and counter-revolutionary forces ---- and the control of
the synapses of the Universe - the pharmaceutical speed given ADD
children while an adult with a couple of joints is sent to prison to
write letters of grace and karma is far more than a skirmish in the
revolution that exists in the universe from the point of my conception
until the present -- the battle for the minds of the people in order to
make the hearts only broken fragments crying in asylums.
>
> "The Ghost of John F. Dulles hangs over America like dirty linen...Dust
> flows out of his asshole, his hands are full of bacteria, The worm is at
> his eye..." Dulles is dead two years at this point but the cold war with
> China he perpetuated as secretary of state lives on. Ginsberg's own
> views of peace, compassion, and harmony are at odds with the philosophy
> of China as the enemy, with the idea of anyone taking over the universe.
And Dulles' China view is taken full force by Poor Richard the words Red
China following him through the early and mid-sixties until he
flip-flops on China in April 1967 in a Foreign Affairs article and the
Universe twists from a two China policy of Taiwan and mainland China to
a one-China policy that nobody understands and the biggest irony in the
twisting is now the leftists hate the Chinese but out of political
correctness don't refer to them by red, yellow or any other colour.
>
> "Forrestal flew out his window like an eagle"--also not a popular figure
> with Ginsberg; he began the first U.S. peacetime draft in 1948 and then
> 1949, obsessed with invasion of America by its enemies, communists,
> Russians, committed suicide by jumping out of his mental hospital window.
Two things hit me in the forehead from this information. First is the
connection of "flew like an eagle" with the beginning of Kesey's lovely
story "one flew east, one flew west, one flew over the cuckoo's nest."
This eagle trapped in the cuckoo's nest didn't fly out the window but
fell to his death. The second is the image of the eagle and suicide
together. The emblem of Americunnism and perhaps the least understood
cultural phenomenon in the Universe bound together in a phrase.
Fascinating.
>
> The whole sense I get from this image is that those making policy in
> America are delusional; it's the same America we saw in Howl, the names
> have changed but America is still on the wrong course, valuing money,
> limiting personal freedoms (esp. in the area of drug use), making enemies
> of Russia and China, and anyone in this country who sees other ideologies
> and peoples as not entirely bad.
What i find interesting is that Ginsberg is very definitely Naming
Enemies. This is a change since the earlier poetry. And your
elaboration on who these names are brings the imagery of Howl more into
focus for me. It is easy to discuss evil in the abstract it becomes
difficult when we start connecting evil with particular individuals.
Evil in this poem is just as real but it is brought about by the actions
of human beings -- specific human beings -- and not vice versa in which
the evil controls the stage of human behavior. The blame seems to shift
from Howl to here -- but maybe i'm mistaken.
>
> The most interesting question is perhaps: Who is the Man?
And is the man male? <grin>
thanks for your lovely post Diane and apologies for my brain straying
too far from your thoughts. your post is so full of ideas that i might
make another run at it in a day or two.
dbr
> DC
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:08:30 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
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> Timothy,
well considering the way the stuff tastes . . .you gotta wonder what it would
smelll like!
JS
>
>
> Indians (or anyone else for that matter) never smoked Peyote, it is not
> taken that way.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:38:38 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David
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IDDHI wrote:
>
>
> Jo Grant's post was entirely un-Beat. Comments about Ginsberg, in any context,
> are entirely Beat.
what is beat anyway? isn't beat a way of thinking and life, not just
discussing people who wrote it?
>
>
> Old-timers to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to list
> content. The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily have been sent
> to you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.
>
> I did not.
> MD
but, you can delete if you don't want to read. i mean, i may not be
interested either, but if you tell people what they can or cannot talk
about may sound like censorship.
ksenija
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 03:42:18 PST
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From: john boggs <jaboggs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: a poem and a question
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for your pleasure...
i wish i knew if my mind was like others
are you as mad as i am? i'd ask
you if i knew you wouldn't run away
like you wanted to and did before
are my worries anxieties tyrants
hopes joys ecstasies the same as yours?
what i mean is
could you love me as i love you?
i want to be INSIDE you
r head and know you
what a warm blanket of comfort
this would be.
and this brings me to a question: what makes some one, or something,
beat? is this poem? and what exactly made allen's poetry beat? speaking
of whom...i know of few people who sucked as long or as hard at the
teat of life as allen ginsberg did. or did i just hit on the answer
myself right there?
john b
______________________________________________________
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 03:55:25 PST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: john boggs <jaboggs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David
Content-Type: text/plain
ksenija wrote:
>
>IDDHI wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jo Grant's post was entirely un-Beat. Comments about Ginsberg, in any
context,
>> are entirely Beat.
>
>what is beat anyway? isn't beat a way of thinking and life, not just
>discussing people who wrote it?
>>
>>
>> Old-timers to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to
list
>> content. The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily have
been sent
>> to you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.
>>
>> I did not.
>> MD
>
>but, you can delete if you don't want to read. i mean, i may not be
>interested either, but if you tell people what they can or cannot talk
>about may sound like censorship.
>
>ksenija
>
censorship? i think not... more like an attempt to guide the dialogue in
more meaningful ways. would restricting speakers in a lecture series to
a single general topic be censorship as well?
john b
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:13:47 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: who will take over the universe?
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Barney.
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:28:51 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: sleeipng
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> patricia: as usual, you show the humanity of wsb (your william, i would
> not usurp yr name for him, his first name, the one of the beats who was
> not refeerrd to many times by his given name.
thank you again for your thoughtful, human, intellegent responses.mc
> william's night.
> half a sleep during his quiet.
> listening to the sounds of the house.
> he always took care of his sleep, furnace off, water everywhere,
> sump pump put in, not sumping,
> a heavier sound than cat,
> racoon comingin to the k early morning night,
> padding in his jams, fixing a special bowl
> for one feline or both. muttering my pretty
>
> pitch pace
>
> so david, i have loved your posts, and i am listening in you say i
> should posts these thoughts i have for while they may have no point it
> is nice to share. i was stunned at the post that said that these were
> ordinary guys that lucked out with a good publicity, the publicity
> might of made or helped their careers but having meet both allen and
> william, neither were ordinary men. But many people aren't ordinary,
> many are. I am not an ordinary person, doesn't mean i will ever be
> famous or influential etc. but to imagine thoseguys as ordinary men with
> ordinary talents would be wrong. no meaning to the word extraordinary
> if you think that. Extraordinary people scare, offend and stick out,
> even if they are harmless and to not much point. They also are often
> fun, imaginative, creative, and sometimes like allen and william men of
> genius. I know that william is great to many for being the writer and
> artist he was, to some this is much more important than the man he was.
> I liked the man he was. I am not an intellectual, i have a native
> intelligence and i love that both these guys had a will to really live
> their lives.
> hey my pen name has been patricia elliott for a long time, tonight i
> thought of changing it to Pitch pace, i thought it was kind of bouncy.
> love to you "old timers and young snappers.
> patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:26:00 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
Tim - i have heard that Indians have in fact smoked peyote. used to live
near a reservation in the Sierra Nevadas. it's not traditional, apparently,
but it does happen.
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy K. Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
>>The Indians won their case with Judge McFate, in other words, drugs are
>>OK for religious purposes, peyote can be smoked by Native Americans
>
>I am very very pleased and happy to read this Diane. I have often wondered
>if anyone would like beat literature or be interested in it if they hadn't
>been at one time or another drug users or aficionados a la the ob's
>(original beats).
>
>Indians (or anyone else for that matter) never smoked Peyote, it is not
>taken that way.
>
>This ain't a knock on you for your lack of knowledge, but quite the
opposite.
>
>
>
>(Anyhoo as well, John Dulles was right more than Ginsy. But he did have
>more information).
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:30:48 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: who will take over the universe?
HAHAHAHA!!! you're too funny. i could even hear you say it, girl. how ya
doin this morning? ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Sunday, January 25, 1998 4:16 AM
Subject: Re: who will take over the universe?
>Barney.
>
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:48:01 -0600
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From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein? (and Nietzsche)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.95q.980120135141.9490A-100000@noether.math.uwaterloo.ca>
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On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
> places)). The importance of Burroughs' citing Wittgenstein can be
> overlooked, however the importance of Burroughs' notion of the prerecorded
> universe cannot. It stands along with Hassan I Sabbah's "Nothing is True.
> Everything is Permitted" and the Algebra of Need as one of the dominant
> metaphysical/philosophical notions in his oeuvre. It's also one of the
> trickiest to puzzle out.
You know, I've often wondered why Nietzsche isn't mentioned more often
in connection with WSB, or in WSB's own work. There seems to be a much
more organic similarity with Nietzsche than with Wittgenstein. Not
least because N also cited HiS's motto:
When the Christian crusaders in the Orient encountered the
invincible order of Assassins, that order of free spirits *par
excellence*, whose lowest ranks followed a rule of obedience the
like of which no order of monks ever attained, they obtained in
some way or other a hint concerning that symbol and watchword
reserved for the highest ranks alone as their *secretum*: "Nothing
is true, everything is permitted."--Very well, *that* was *freedom*
of spirit; in *that* way the faith in truth itself was *abrogated*.
Has any European, any Christian free spirit ever strayed into this
proposition and into its labyrinthine consequences? has one of them
ever known the Minotaur of this cave *from experience*?--I doubt
it.... (_On the Genealogy of Morals_ Third essay, section 24)
It suffices that the more superficially and coarsely it is
conceived, the more valuable, definite, beautiful, and significant
the world appears. The deeper one looks, the more our valuations
disappear--meaninglessness approaches! We have *created* the world
that possesses values! Knowing this, we know, too, that reverence
for truth is already the consequence of an illusion--and that one
should value more than truth the force that forms, simplifies,
shapes, invents. "Everything is false! Everything is permitted!"
Only with a certain obtuseness of vision, a will to simplification,
does the beautiful, the "valuable" appear....
(_The Will to Power_ section 602)
> > > On Language Games:
>
> > > Tim Murphy's new book posits that "[Burroughs' work] emerges from the
> > > liminal space of literature with a 'plan of living' rather than an
> > > endlessly deferred 'participation in language games' or an empty 'love for
> > > the world through language' a la John Barth." He makes a pretty convincing
> > > argument too, and I'd refer you to him for the rest of it.
>
> I think what Tim Murphy was saying above, and I agree with him on this,
> is that Burroughs does not use language in the way characterised by Kenny:
> "Language-games, like games, need have no external goal; they can
> be autonomous activities". Burroughs always had a program, an
> extra-linguistic objective beyond words: to cut control lines, to find
> silence, to get into space. In all of these he aimed to get past the
> autonomous language games of infinite deferral. Although I admit that I
> used game in the sense of trivial, I still think Burroughs was trying to
> get beyond a system of language that could be characterized as a game,
> with rules (cut control lines, cut word lines...) Burroughs' fragmentation
> of text, and rewriting of history does not stem from a belief in the
> inefficacy of all production (like Baudrillard's triumph of abstract
> mediation, the nullity of all signs) but out of a project for freedom
> from linguistic and socio-historical control.
While language-games *need not* have an external goal, they *can* have
one, so this account of language-games is not really inconsistent with
having extra-linguistic objectives. But for W, language *as a whole*
cannot be said to aim at any goal, just as *games in general* do not
aim at a single goal--and in *this* sense, therefore, the rules of
language are arbitrary:
Why don't I call cookery rules arbitray, and why am I tempted to
call the rules of grammar arbitrary? Because I think of the concept
"cookery" as defined by the end of cookery, and I don't think of
the concept "language" as defined by the end of language. You cook
badly if you are guided in your cooking by rules other than the
right ones; but if you follow rules other than those of chess you
are playing another game; and if you follow grammatical rules other
than such and such ones, that does not mean you say something
wrong, no, you are speaking of something else.
(LW, _Philosophical Grammar_ section 133)
One of the difficulties I've found with Wittgenstein is that it's just
about impossible to get any critical traction in his work. Every time
you attempt to make an objection, the answer is always, "Well, you're
just playing a different language-game."
When WSB attempts to cut the control lines by getting beyond words, he
must, qua writer, still use words. Here again I think Nietzsche may be
of more help, with his notion of "self-overcoming": "All great things
bring about their own destruction through an act of self-overcoming"
(Genealogy of Morals, 3rd essay #27)--in other words, the very forces
that made a thing what it is are the very same forces that eventually
bring about that thing's movement beyond itself. For Nietzsche, it is
the *value* of truth, when its consequences are followed out to
the end that throws into question truth itself, and thus leads to
the realization that "Nothing is true...."
So in WSB: the power and logic of language is brought to turn against
itself. But with Witt., it's not even clear that one language-game can
meaningfully talk about another language-game. The most you could ever
say about this from a Wittgensteinian perspective is that WSB simply
switched language-games, leaving all others untouched. No friction.
So if we are to avoid both this situation, as
well as the claim that WSB simply contradicts himself by *writing*
about the end of language, we would need a different, more powerful
interpretive framework: N's conception of self-overcoming, perhaps.
So it appears to me that Nietzsche contains, perhaps, much more
powerful resources for helping us to undertand WSB's work than
Wittgenstein.
(For more on self-overcoming, & besides N. himself, an interesting
book is _The Question of Ethics_ by Charles E Scott, Indiana UP 1990)
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:06:06 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: beat vs. nonbeat-- a helpful guide
Comments: cc: country@sover.net
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Okay, i've scanned the list for the last week and a half, and i have
come up with this handy guide for everyone...
___BEAT ______________ _____NOTBEAT_
_________________________
changes in naked lunch text ny times onlyrecallingginsyfor
his part in theivery
catholicism cia
jack and allen jerking matrimony proposals on-line
one another off after parties
homosexuality homophobia
kerouac as straight queer? cybersex
kerouac is a poet kerouac is not a poet
tom waits kurt cobain
keroac/ginsberg sex life Lewinsky/Clinton sex life
zyprexa blues 007 movies
pull my daisy a movie being made
from 'breakfast of
champions'
possibly starring
bruce willis
capital letters no capital letters
cold war gulf war
posts complaining about non-beat posts posting non-beat posts
hope i helped everyone out on determining what is beat and what isn't
beat. Sometimes i think the world in general should slow down and
listen to how stupid it sounds at times.
objectively yours,
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 04:45:53 -0800
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
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> David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> Here AG is powerfully predictive of the future successes of passive
> Are these images pure prophecy or is Allen perhaps connecting the
> power of
> resistance of some of the old communist and socialist thinking (not
> always passive in manner) on which he was raised. Can anyone else here
> Joe Hill singing Wobblie songs in between the lines of the first words
> in this poem?
I think the whole idea of "conspirators at cafe tables" and "mystic
jails" are part of the idea that if one has positions out of the
mainstream, like communist ideals, than one is put in a position of
secretism and conspirators have to be hidden, no one talks openly about
it.
Much like in "America" where he says, " America when I was seven momma
took me to Communist Cell meetings they sold us garbanzos a handful per
ticket a ticket costs a nickel and the speeches were free everybody was
angelic and sentimental about the workers it was all so sincere you have
no idea what a good thing the party was....Everybody must have been a
spy."
> The idea of ignoring the government is very important. He specifically
> says NOT to protest the government this would be a misdirection of
> resistance. His answer is to ignore the government. But ignoring the
> government is itself a form of protest. [snipped]
> By 1968 he seems to have moved from this view to
> what Buckley would consider a rather less naive view of participating
> in
> the protests at the Democratic National Convention. Ironically,
> America
> might have had it better if the radicals had followed the advice of
> this
> poem. Ignoring the process of National Politics might have achieved a
> better revolutionary purpose.
Ignoring the goverment does nothing more than perpetuate its negatives.
For instance, by not voting one is consenting to, accepting the stance of
the current government. Ginsberg, at some point, saw that action is the
only course for revolutionary change. Ignoring the Vietnam war would not
have changed the attitude of America concerning it; it was the masses
taking to the streets in protest that showed the government there was not
only another side to the situation but it was a vocal side that insisted
on change.
> AG is correct that bombs aren't the only
> revolutionary and counter-revolutionary forces ---- and the control of
> the synapses of the Universe - the pharmaceutical speed given ADD
> children while an adult with a couple of joints is sent to prison to
> write letters of grace and karma is far more than a skirmish in the
> revolution that exists in the universe from the point of my conception
> until the present -- the battle for the minds of the people in order to
> make the hearts only broken fragments crying in asylums.
Well, the whole campaign of "just say no to drugs" is a war against the
minds of Americans, just a bit subtler then saying Russia and China
wants to take over the universe. In saying drugs are bad, you are also
setting up the idea that people who use drugs are bad. That opens up the
judgement that it is right to put people in jail for a couple joints, and
even as we see now, charging poor women with child abuse for using drugs
while pregnant. Nicotine is a legal drug but the freedom to smoke now is
practically regulated to the home. America's drug policies have always
been screwed up because drug users are not seen as voters that can affect
change in government policy.
> What i find interesting is that Ginsberg is very definitely Naming
> Enemies. This is a change since the earlier poetry. And your
> elaboration on who these names are brings the imagery of Howl more into
> focus for me. It is easy to discuss evil in the abstract it becomes
> difficult when we start connecting evil with particular individuals.
> Evil in this poem is just as real but it is brought about by the >
> actions
> of human beings -- specific human beings -- and not vice versa in which
> the evil controls the stage of human behavior. The blame seems to >
> shift
> from Howl to here -- but maybe i'm mistaken.
I think evil is the same as it was in Howl but yes, by naming names he
starts to put faces on it. Dulles, in particular, is named in many of the
poems during this time period. Also, the title of this particular book
of poems is "Planet News: To Europe and Asia" which probably denotes AG's
need to "enlighten" Europe and Asia to what he sees as the "behind the
scenes" agenda of the American government.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:45:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: quote search
In-Reply-To: <34C51B16.322D@midusa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> Preston Whaley wrote:
> >
> > A week or so back someone posted the following quote by Burroughs: "All
> > agents defect, and all resisters sellout." Does anyone know the source?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Preston
>
> i tried several forms of searches at Bigtable database with no luck.
>
> dbr
>
Should have used the concordance. It's on page 205 of whatever edition of
Naked Lunch Luke used to compile the concordance. The link to the page on
his site is:
http://www.bigtable.com/library/naked_lunch/205.html
Thanks again to Luke for putting up such a great resource.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:51:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: The word "random" and WSB
In-Reply-To: <34C783F0.37E7@midusa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> If people can backchannel me specific references and quotations
> concerning the meanings of "random" from WSB or other beat authors I
> would appreciate it.
Burroughs said "there is no such thing as a coincidence. How random is
random?" In the Magical Universe nothing happens unless something wills it
to happen.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:59:51 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980123042959.570757087A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> I also recently read "The Central Verbal System: The Prose of William
> Burroughs" by Michael Skau (who is on this list, I believe), in which
> he states, in the course of giving an account of WSB's various methods
> for combating verbal control, that "Burroughs also refuses to correct
> typographical errors in his prose....These errata comprise further
> assaults on verbal control." But this claim may have to be revised,
> depending on who is responsible for the changes in NL.
Do you have the biblio info for the article above? I'd like to see the
source for the line you quoted. Maybe Michael can elaborate, if he's out
there?
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:57:39 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein? (and Nietzsche)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
>
> > places)). The importance of Burroughs' citing Wittgenstein can be
> > overlooked, however the importance of Burroughs' notion of the prerecorded
> > universe cannot. It stands along with Hassan I Sabbah's "Nothing is True.
> > Everything is Permitted" and the Algebra of Need as one of the dominant
> > metaphysical/philosophical notions in his oeuvre. It's also one of the
> > trickiest to puzzle out.
>
> You know, I've often wondered why Nietzsche isn't mentioned more often
> in connection with WSB, or in WSB's own work. There seems to be a much
> more organic similarity with Nietzsche than with Wittgenstein. Not
> least because N also cited HiS's motto:
>
Jeff and Neil,
while my philosophy of language background is way too dusty to keep up
with y'all (and i was more into Kenneth Burke than Wittgenstein) i must
say i absolutely love your discussions. each post makes my head spin
around at least once. after i have let a post spin my head four or five
times i promptly delete it and wait for another headspinner to come our
way. looking forward to more.
seriously, i feel that embedded in the writings of William Burroughs is
an unindexed briefing of one of the finest philosopher's of language of
the century. i hope that the efforts y'all put into the study of such
things will eventually percolate to where he is discussed across the
University and not just in a few renegade literature courses.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:05:49 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980123042959.570757087A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> > > xlvi/xviii.9fr btm Occam --> Ockham
Apparently he inherited this from Wittgenstein, who spells William of
Ockam's name "Occam" in proposition 3.328 of the Tractatus: "If a sign is
not necessary then it is meaningless. That is the meaning of Occam's
razor."
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:15:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Beat vs. Non-Beat, blah, blah, blah...
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
You know, discussions about what is "Beat" and what is "not Beat," are
really very non-Beat.... Pardon my non-Beatness in pointing that out. The
whole "Kerouac 'no poet'?!?!?!" discussion was actually very productive, I
think. It lead to a lot of thinking, discussion, and a lot of really,
really "Beat" emotional spewing. It was highly productive in other ways,
too, but that's a looooooonnng story. *laughing hysterically* The story
itself is actually as "Beat" as you can get... Right, Thomas? *laughing
even harder* Ik hou van je!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:42:03 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: a poem and a question
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
was this poem by ginsberg? was it? what's the name? i love it, someone please
tell me.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:01:03 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: john boggs <jaboggs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: a poem and a question
Content-Type: text/plain
>
>was this poem by ginsberg? was it? what's the name? i love it, someone
please
>tell me.
>
i wrote it last night and was rather hoping it would please someone. i
am still blushing from the comparison to allen ginsberg! ;->
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:55:55 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel <thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization: None
Subject: Re: Beat vs. Non-Beat, blah, blah, blah...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> You know, discussions about what is "Beat" and what is "not Beat," are
> really very non-Beat.... Pardon my non-Beatness in pointing that out. The
> whole "Kerouac 'no poet'?!?!?!" discussion was actually very productive, I
> think. It lead to a lot of thinking, discussion, and a lot of really,
> really "Beat" emotional spewing. It was highly productive in other ways,
> too, but that's a looooooonnng story. *laughing hysterically* The story
> itself is actually as "Beat" as you can get... Right, Thomas? *laughing
> even harder* Ik hou van je!
All Beat-Les,
Let's just say: ik hou van je is Dutch for 'I love you'.
'nuff said'?
I love you all and Sara especially,
enough to get my ass to Ohio within
14 days or so.
Thomas,
loving his life out
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:00:33 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: New York Times
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thanks Bill for your letter to NY Times Magazine supporting AG's
accomplishments. I also noticed that in the today's special section on
New York, 100 Years, Alfred Kazin's article on great New York writers
conveniently omitted AG.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:32:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat vs. Non-Beat, blah, blah, blah...
In-Reply-To: <34CBB4EB.6DCA@skynet.be>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
See what I mean? The dude's going "on the road" for me! It just doesn't
get any more Beat than that!!! *laughing hysterically again* Now
"everything" has happened on this list....
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Thomas Van Moortel wrote:
> Sara Feustle wrote:
> >
> > You know, discussions about what is "Beat" and what is "not Beat," are
> > really very non-Beat.... Pardon my non-Beatness in pointing that out. The
> > whole "Kerouac 'no poet'?!?!?!" discussion was actually very productive, I
> > think. It lead to a lot of thinking, discussion, and a lot of really,
> > really "Beat" emotional spewing. It was highly productive in other ways,
> > too, but that's a looooooonnng story. *laughing hysterically* The story
> > itself is actually as "Beat" as you can get... Right, Thomas? *laughing
> > even harder* Ik hou van je!
>
> All Beat-Les,
>
> Let's just say: ik hou van je is Dutch for 'I love you'.
>
> 'nuff said'?
>
> I love you all and Sara especially,
> enough to get my ass to Ohio within
> 14 days or so.
>
> Thomas,
> loving his life out
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:05:11 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: a place for aspiring writers?
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Since so many people on this listserv write, and there have been a few
requests for places to publish, I thought I'd pass this link along:
http://www.worldwidemagazines.com/literary2.html
Apparently a number of the magazines listed here encourage unpublished writers
and poets, and are actively seeking submissions all the time.
Few presses were available for avant garde and non-traditional stuff like Beat
writers wrote in the Fifties. One thing I always really liked about them was
their penchant for making little chapbooks, mimeographs of their works (who
remembers mimeos?) Seems like Brautigan was especially big on that. I've seen
people in recent days who've done the same thing, at PIP or Kinko's, then
stood on street corners or found shelf space in record stores, where they gave
their work away, partly to share beauty, and partly just to be read.
I'd love to experience something as earth-shattering as the reading at the Six
Gallery, but where are the poets? Surely we have enough to rage against today
as the Beat Generation did.
By the way, I'm not a poet, but I like it, as I've stated before in posts.
Seems to me, though, that most readings around here happen at Barnes&Noble or
something and are merchandising tie-ins to new books.
Publish or perish, or, failing that, organize a reading, and invite me!
Incognito in L.A.,
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:17:31 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: ik hou van je (was Re: Beat vs. Non-Beat, blah, blah, blah...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thomas Van Moortel wrote:
>
> Sara Feustle wrote:
> >
> > You know, discussions about what is "Beat" and what is "not Beat," are
> > really very non-Beat.... Pardon my non-Beatness in pointing that out. The
> > whole "Kerouac 'no poet'?!?!?!" discussion was actually very productive, I
> > think. It lead to a lot of thinking, discussion, and a lot of really,
> > really "Beat" emotional spewing. It was highly productive in other ways,
> > too, but that's a looooooonnng story. *laughing hysterically* The story
> > itself is actually as "Beat" as you can get... Right, Thomas? *laughing
> > even harder* Ik hou van je!
>
> All Beat-Les,
>
> Let's just say: ik hou van je is Dutch for 'I love you'.
>
> 'nuff said'?
>
> I love you all and Sara especially,
> enough to get my ass to Ohio within
> 14 days or so.
>
> Thomas,
> loving his life out
ik hou van je broncos
gypsy davey
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 01:32:16 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel <thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization: None
Subject: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
> Thomas Van Moortel wrote:
> >
> > Sara Feustle wrote:
> > >
> > > You know, discussions about what is "Beat" and what is "not Beat," are
> > > really very non-Beat.... Pardon my non-Beatness in pointing that out. The
> > > whole "Kerouac 'no poet'?!?!?!" discussion was actually very productive, I
> > > think. It lead to a lot of thinking, discussion, and a lot of really,
> > > really "Beat" emotional spewing. It was highly productive in other ways,
> > > too, but that's a looooooonnng story. *laughing hysterically* The story
> > > itself is actually as "Beat" as you can get... Right, Thomas? *laughing
> > > even harder* Ik hou van je!
> >
> > All Beat-Les,
> >
> > Let's just say: ik hou van je is Dutch for 'I love you'.
> >
> > 'nuff said'?
> >
> > I love you all and Sara especially,
> > enough to get my ass to Ohio within
> > 14 days or so.
> >
> > Thomas,
> > loving his life out
>
> ik hou van je broncos
>
> gypsy davey
Hey Davey,
Pass interference against the Bronco's & gypsy Davey!
TRUE LOVE on a beat-l and you're watching the Super Bowl?
Do you know where Belgium is, as opposed to Ohio?
Favre to the end zone
Go Packers !
I LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
--Thomas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:56:04 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 25-Jan-98 4:44:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be writes:
<< I LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
--Thomas >>
Sara, Thomas... get a room, willya?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:13:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: ik hou van je (was Re: Beat vs. Non-Beat, blah, blah,
blah...
In-Reply-To: <34CBD61B.2280@midusa.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> ik hou van je broncos
>
> gypsy davey
>
Fick die Broncos, die Packers werden gewinnen!!! Actually, I
could give a rat's ass about either team... my poor Cowboys really sucked
this year.... *sniff* Football, there's a beat topic... I wonder if there
is any footage of Kerouac playing football....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:16:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
In-Reply-To: <34CBD990.3A82@skynet.be>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I'm not watching the damn Superbowl, I'm thinking about Thomas and reading
medieval German literature! The Packers will prevail, whoooo-hoooooo!!!
> Hey Davey,
>
> Pass interference against the Bronco's & gypsy Davey!
>
> TRUE LOVE on a beat-l and you're watching the Super Bowl?
>
> Do you know where Belgium is, as opposed to Ohio?
>
> Favre to the end zone
> Go Packers !
>
> I LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
>
> --Thomas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:18:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
In-Reply-To: <56ca234c.34cbdf26@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Well, actually, IDDHI... heh-heh-heh.... give us a couple days...
heh-heh-heh.... Heh-heh-heh... We'll spare you the details... *lol*
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, IDDHI wrote:
> In a message dated 25-Jan-98 4:44:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be writes:
>
> << I LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
>
> --Thomas >>
>
> Sara, Thomas... get a room, willya?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:40:30 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 25-Jan-98 5:21:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU writes:
<< Well, actually, IDDHI... heh-heh-heh.... give us a couple days...
heh-heh-heh.... Heh-heh-heh... We'll spare you the details... *lol*
>>
Thinking of writing a long dissertation titled, "The Tyrrany of Stupidity: Why
Newsgroups Don't Work."
Any thoughts?
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:36:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
You and I must be the only ones not watching the game.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:49:46 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Creeeeeeep <Creeeeeeep@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
I'm not either
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:52:03 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel <thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization: None
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
IDDHI wrote:
>
> In a message dated 25-Jan-98 5:21:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU writes:
>
> << Well, actually, IDDHI... heh-heh-heh.... give us a couple days...
> heh-heh-heh.... Heh-heh-heh... We'll spare you the details... *lol*
> >>
>
> Thinking of writing a long dissertation titled, "The Tyrrany of Stupidity: Why
> Newsgroups Don't Work."
>
> Any thoughts?
> MD
Actually, I was just thinking about the Bible quote from Pulp Fiction
"...and the tyrrany of evil men".
Newsgroups probably don't work cos it just ain't worth it anytime
you post something you can be a 100% sure somebody's gonna be offended
or is gonna bitch about beat-l or nor beat-l.
Have a fucking sense of humor. But then, I'm in love...
So shoot me.
--Thomas.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:17:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Beauty and Ugliness on Beat-L...
In-Reply-To: <34CBEC42.242C@skynet.be>
MIME-version: 1.0
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>
> Actually, I was just thinking about the Bible quote from Pulp Fiction
> "...and the tyrrany of evil men".
> Newsgroups probably don't work cos it just ain't worth it anytime
> you post something you can be a 100% sure somebody's gonna be offended
> or is gonna bitch about beat-l or nor beat-l.
> Have a fucking sense of humor. But then, I'm in love...
>
> So shoot me.
>
Well said, my love... I was about to reply to that bit of
snottiness when I saw that you already had...
IDDHI:
I mean, really, man, don't y'all know that pettiness and a total
lack of humor is as anti-Beat as Rush Limbaugh??? You're the one that
opened that can of worms, so don't be getting pissed off at us!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:19:44 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 25-Jan-98 6:02:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be writes:
<< Have a fucking sense of humor. >>
I have a great sense of humor. I just don't happen to see what's humorous (if
that's your intention) about the personal correspondence between two people
that should be done by back channel.
Retitle your posts to read something like "personal bullshit sent to waste
listserv space," and I'll be able to delete them without reading them and will
have no comment whatsoever.
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:21:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Beauty and Ugliness on Beat-L...
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Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> >
> > Actually, I was just thinking about the Bible quote from Pulp Fiction
> > "...and the tyrrany of evil men".
> > Newsgroups probably don't work cos it just ain't worth it anytime
> > you post something you can be a 100% sure somebody's gonna be offended
> > or is gonna bitch about beat-l or nor beat-l.
> > Have a fucking sense of humor. But then, I'm in love...
> >
> > So shoot me.
> >
>
> Well said, my love... I was about to reply to that bit of
> snottiness when I saw that you already had...
>
> IDDHI:
> I mean, really, man, don't y'all know that pettiness and a total
> lack of humor is as anti-Beat as Rush Limbaugh??? You're the one that
> opened that can of worms, so don't be getting pissed off at us!
OR---
Defense broncos DEFENSE!!!!!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:28:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beauty and Ugliness on Beat-L...
In-Reply-To: <34CBF31E.55C5@midusa.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> OR---
> Defense broncos DEFENSE!!!!!
> dbr
>
*rolling on the floor* How's that damn game going, anyway?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:35:51 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: ik hou van je (was Re: Beat vs. Non-Beat, blah, blah, blah...
Content-Type: text/plain
>ik hou van je broncos
>
>gypsy davey
>
hahahahaha...
-greg
ps- i would have really liked to have seen broncos v. 49ers.. the two
beatest cities battling it out with the ol' pigskin...
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:06:51 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: crap and humor
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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so if i think posts are drivel and not very interesting i don't have a
sense of humor, gee, i just thought they were boring posts, i didn't
get there was some super secret humor to them. i sure didn't follow
that, was it by chopping up the posts and crappy remarks until something
of intelligence emerges. This most be all my fault, or i aren't beat
enouf. i should of realized i wanted to hear about oj, clinton, di, or
beef suits it snot crap, it hot freedom of speech issues, unavailable
to us except on such escoteric shows such as hard copy. well, to make
this a legel eagle post, if anyone wants an rivercity reunion program,
shoot me your snail and i will mail one (black and white) i have
hundreds, oh use back channel. if you please.
pitch
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:09:03 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Commodify Your Dissent
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Sara, Thomas... this "bud's" for you:
=======================================
Capitalism is changing, obviously and drastically. From the moneyed pages of
the Wall Street Journal to TV commercials for airlines and photocopiers we
hear every day about the new order's globe-spanning, cyber-accumulating ways.
But our notion about what's wrong with American life and how the figures
responsible are to be confronted haven't changed much in thirty years. Call
it, for convenience, the "countercultural idea." It holds that the paramount
ailment of our society is conformity, a malady that has variously been
described as over-organization, bureaucracy, homogeneity, hierarchy,
logocentrism, technocracy, the Combine, the Apollonian. We all know what it is
and what it does. It transforms humanity into "organization man," into "the
man in the gray flannel suit." It is "Moloch whose mind is pure machinery,"
the "incomprehensible prison" that consumes "brains and imagination." It is
artifice, starched shirts, tailfins, carefully mowed lawns, and always,
always, the consciousness of impending nuclear destruction. It is a stiff,
militaristic order that seeks to suppress instinct, to forbid sex and
pleasure, to deny basic human impulses and individuality, to enforce through a
rigid uniformity a meaningless plastic consumerism.
The patron saints of the countercultural idea are, of course, the Beats, whose
frenzied style and merry alienation still maintain a powerful grip on the
American imagination. Even forty years after the publication of On the Road,
the works of Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs remain the sine qua non of
dissidence, the model for aspiring poets, rock stars, or indeed anyone who
feels vaguely artistic or alienated. That frenzied sensibility of pure
experience, life on the edge, immediate gratification, and total freedom from
moral restraint, which the Beats first propounded back in those heady days
when suddenly everyone could have their own TV and powerful V-8, has stuck
with us through all the intervening years and become something of a permanent
American style. Go to any poetry reading and you can see a string of junior
Kerouacs go through the routine, upsetting cultural hierarchies by pushing
themselves to the limit, straining for that gorgeous moment of original vice
when Allen Ginsberg first read "Howl" in 1955 and the patriarchs of our
fantasies recoiled in shock. The Gap may have since claimed Ginsberg and USA
Today may run feature stories about the brilliance of the beloved Kerouac, but
the rebel race continues today regardless, with ever-heightening shit-
references calculated to scare Jesse Helms, talk about sex and smack that is
supposed to bring the electricity of real life, and ever-more determined
defiance of the repressive rules and mores of the American 1950s--rules and
mores that by now we know only from movies.
But one hardly has to go to a poetry reading to see the countercultural idea
acted out. Its frenzied ecstasies have long since become an official aesthetic
of consumer society, a monotheme of mass as well as adversarial culture. Turn
on the TV and there it is instantly: the unending drama of consumer unbound
and in search of an ever-heightened good time, the inescapable rock `n' roll
soundtrack, dreadlocks and ponytails bounding into Taco Bells, a drunken,
swinging-camera epiphany of tennis shoes, outlaw soda pops, and mind-bending
dandruff shampoos. Corporate America, it turns out, no longer speaks in the
voice of oppressive order that it did when Ginsberg moaned in 1956 that Time
magazine was
always telling me about responsibility. Business-
men are serious. Movie producers are serious.
Everybody's serious but me.
Nobody wants you to think they're serious today, least of all Time Warner. On
the contrary: the Culture Trust is now our leader in the Ginsbergian search
for kicks upon kicks. Corporate America is not an oppressor but a sponsor of
fun, provider of lifestyle accoutrements, facilitator of carnival, our slang-
speaking partner in the quest for that ever-more apocalyptic orgasm. The
countercultural idea has become capitalist orthodoxy, its hunger for
transgression upon transgression now perfectly suited to an economic-cultural
regime that runs on ever-faster cyclings of the new; its taste for self-
fulfillment and its intolerance for the confines of tradition now permitting
vast latitude in consuming practices and lifestyle experimentation.
As countercultural rebellion becomes corporate ideology, even the beloved
Buddhism of the Beats wins a place on the executive bookshelf. In The Leader
as Martial Artist (1993), Arnold Mindell advises men of commerce in the ways
of the Tao, mastery of which he likens, of course, to surfing. For Mindell's
Zen businessman, as for the followers of Tom Peters, the world is a wildly
chaotic place of opportunity, navigable only to an enlightened "leader" who
can discern the "timespirits" at work behind the scenes. In terms Peters
himself might use were he a more more meditative sort of inspiration
professional, Mindell explains that "the wise facilitator" doesn't seek to
prevent the inevitable and random clashes between "conflicting field spirits,"
but to anticipate such bouts of disorder and profit thereby.
Contemporary corporate fantasy imagines a world of ceaseless, turbulent
change, of centers that ecstatically fail to hold, of joyous extinction for
the craven gray-flannel creature of the past. Businessmen today decorate the
walls of their offices not with portraits of President Eisenhower and emblems
of suburban order, but with images of extreme athletic daring, with sayings
about "diversity" and "empowerment" and "thinking outside the box." They
theorize their world not in the bar car of the commuter train, but in weepy
corporate retreats at which they beat their tom-toms and envision themselves
as part of the great avant-garde tradition of edge-livers, risk-takers, and
ass-kickers. Their world is a place not of sublimation and conformity, but of
"leadership" and bold talk about defying the herd. And there is nothing this
new enlightened species of businessman despises more than "rules" and
"reason." The prominent culture-warriors of the right may believe that the
counterculture was capitalism's undoing, but the antinomian businessmen know
better. "One of the t-shirt slogans of the sixties read, `Question
authority,'" the authors of Reengineering the Corporation write. "Process
owners might buy their reengineering team members the nineties version:
`Question assumptions.'"
The new businessman quite naturally gravitates to the slogans and sensibility
of the rebel sixties to express his understanding of the new Information
World. He is led in what one magazine calls "the business revolution" by the
office-park subversives it hails as "business activists," "change agents," and
"corporate radicals." He speaks to his comrades through commercials like the
one for "Warp," a type of IBM computer operating system, in which an electric
guitar soundtrack and psychedelic video effects surround hip executives with
earrings and hairdos who are visibly stunned by the product's gnarly 'tude
(It's a "totally cool way to run your computer," read the product's print
ads). He understands the world through Fast Company, a successful new magazine
whose editors take their inspiration from Hunter S. Thompson and whose stories
describe such things as a "dis-organization" that inhabits an "anti-office"
where "all vestiges of hierarchy have disappeared" or a computer scientist who
is also "a rabble rouser, an agent provocateur, a product of the 1960s who
never lost his activist fire or democratic values." He is what sociologists
Paul Leinberger and Bruce Tucker have called "The New Individualist," the new
and improved manager whose arty worldview and creative hip derive directly
from his formative sixties days. The one thing this new executive is
definitely not is Organization Man, the hyper-rational counter of beans,
attender of church, and wearer of stiff hats. In television commercials,
through which the new American businessman presents his visions and self-
understanding to the public, perpetual revolution and the gospel of rule-
breaking are the orthodoxy of the day. You only need to watch for a few
minutes before you see one of these slogans and understand the grip of
antinomianism over the corporate mind:
Sometimes You Gotta Break the Rules --Burger King
If You Don't Like the Rules, Change Them --WXRT-FM
The Rules Have Changed --Dodge
The Art of Changing --Swatch
There's no one way to do it. --Levi's
This is different. Different is good. --Arby's
Just Different From the Rest --Special Export beer
The Line Has Been Crossed: The Revolutionary New Supra --Toyota
Resist the Usual --the slogan of both Clash Clear Malt and Young & Rubicam
Innovate Don't Imitate --Hugo Boss
Chart Your Own Course --Navigator Cologne
It separates you from the crowd --Vision Cologne
In most, the commercial message is driven home with the vanguard iconography
of the rebel: screaming guitars, whirling cameras, and startled old timers
who, we predict, will become an increasingly indispensable prop as consumers
require ever-greater assurances that, Yes! You are a rebel! Just look at how
offended they are!
<end excerpt>
By THOMAS FRANK and MATT WEILAND
(C) 1997 The Baffler Literary Magazine, Inc. All rights reserved. ISBN:
0-393-31673-4
=================================
If anyone wants the entire text of this review, email me directly.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:45:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Journal Night Thoughts
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Journal Night Thoughts
by A.G.
NY January 1961
In bed on my green purple pink
yellow orange bolivian blanket,
the clock tick, my back against the wall
-- staring into black circled eyes magician
man's bearded glance and story
the kitchen spun in a wheel of vertigo,
the eye in the center of the moving
mandala -- the
eye in the hand
the eye in the asshole
serpent eating or
vomiting its tail
-- the blank air a solid wall revolving
around my retina --
The wheel of jewels and fire i saw moving
vaster than my head in Peru
Band circling in band and a black
hole of Calcutta thru which
I stared at my Atman
without a body --
The Giotto window on Boston giving
to a scene in Bibled Palestine
A golden star
and the flight to Egypt
in an instant now
Come true again -- the Kabbala sign
in the vomit on the floor --
>From a window on Riverside Drive,
one boat moving slowly
up the flowing river, small autos
crawling on Hudson Thruway
a plash of white snow on
the Palisades
and a small white park etched
by bare thin branches
with black birds aflutter in the
frosty underbrush
Riverside Drive, as in Brueghel
a girl in red coat
-- a footprint, a lone
passerby
on sidewalk under apartment wall --
and a blimp from the war floating in the air
over the edge of the city --
Wagner's last echoes, and Baudelaire
inscribing his oceanic page
of confessions
Ah love is so sweet in the Springtime
Amor Vincit Omnia
Eliot's voice clanging over the sky
on upper Broadway
"Only thru Time is Time conquered"
I am the answer : I will swallow my
vomit and be naked --
A heavy rain, the plick of a raindrop
shattered on the fire escape rail
at the level of my eye --
This woman is a serpent goddess accepting
the proposition of a bunch of flowers
found in the Christmas snow
on Mad.Ave. dusk uptown --
We'll rush around in a redcross psychic
ambulance past the Museum of
Natural History
delivering Anxiety mushrooms to the dancing
red gummed skeletons
their lifted legs are crossed
they wear iron crowns
The cat vomited his canned food with a
mix of inch-long worms
that arched up over the
dread plop --
I threw it in the garbage bag aghast --
cockroach crawls up the bath tub Yosemite wall,
rust in the hot water faucet, a sweet smell
in the mouldy chicken soup,
and little black beings in the old bag of flour
on the pantry shelf last week
Natchez, he was saying with his head one side
of the center of the wheel
of Vertigo --
burned babies in the blaze of a fiery house
sending them back to the Sun --
They drank a black elixir, and threw it up
To have the serpent intertwined
in their eyeballs --
One man was born with genitals all over
his body -- there were 15,000,000
Indians in North America then --
The mushroom image in the Spiro Mound
The battle with the two-headed
caterpillar big as a house
with waving lobster claws --
Here is the Homunculus wavering in the brain,
the aggregate of ignorant patterns
looking like Denny Dimwit
The genitals are larger than the head --
huge thumbs, and the crab image
of the back of the mouth --
'Twas a sunflower-monkey on Neptune
I imagined over the radio --
Somebody's got to make a break and contact
Khruschev in the Noosphere --
because I took a sick crap near a skull
with long red hair in a coastal desert
gravepit by the Peruvian Pacific --
across the road, new green fields and hut trees
and now I'm paranoiac every day about the cops
(& god & universe)
as if it were all being tape recorded from my
skull to project the Kali Yuga --
He saw electric wires on the floor -- He saw
the channel that heard yr mind
thru the music --
I saw the flower, slowly awakening its petals --
My face in the hot dog stand mirror
harried to be here again
to see myself alive on Broadway afraid I'm
in a forgotten movie where I die
not knowing my name --
The old man came out of his room Carpet
slippers, getting bald
with half a sheaf of indecipherable arrangements
of words in singsong
"rain in heart by heat a fool be clang"
Cerebral stroke stiff hand
His tongue stopped forever
but his mind went on
in what universe?
I dreamt I had to destroy the human
universe to be Messiah --
My toes wiggle on the bed, the breast has
eyes and mouth,
the belly eye & dumb lips and the loins
a blind one waiting --
a big fart gave the void a smelly minute --
The color of the wind? It could be the same
the color of the water --
Where does rain come from? Nice to look up
at the stars in Northport --
'Er something. Uh-huh.
I could see the hairs at the end of his nose.
We were involved in a great tragedy together --
I walked alone, in the street, by myself
with no God to turn to
But what I Am --
who can create baby universes
in the mouth of the void --
Spurt them out of my mind forever
to fill the Unimaginable with its
separate being --
So I left behind a message to the Consciousness
before I disappeared --
I wrote it on a stone & left it in Oklahoma
in that Indian mound,
drew a picture of a serpent crossing in
and out of its folds like a scaly
swastika -- a green dragon
with ancient fangs
Speak up and tell yr secret, is it a
living animal out there your
afraid of still -- ?
And my mother's skull not yet white
in the darkness, a glimpse of
that forgotten creature agape
at dirty nothing -- GO
BACK !
I come in the ass of my beloved, I lay back
with my cock in the air to be kissed --
I prostrate my sphincter with my eyes in
the pillow, my legs are thrown up
over your shoulder,
I feel your buttocks with my hand
a cock throbs I lay still my
mouth in my ass --
I kiss the hidden mouth, I have a third eye
I paint the pupils on my palm, and an
eyelash that winks --
************
Marginal Poem - Journal Night Thoughts
by A.G.
Sept. 28, 1964
Lower East Side
2 Street
High
*
W/Harry Smith
*
Optical Phenomena
*
Yage
in
Pucallpa
*
Remembering
Leary's Bedroom
Harvard
*
Jack Hallucinating
*
Out Robt.
Lowell's Window
*
Unsteadily
Walking
in
Manhattan
Near Where
Poe Wrote
The
Raven
*
Visiting
Dorothy Norman
*
Psylocibin Taxi
*
The Citipati
(Tibetan Bones)
*
Housecat
in the
Slums
*
Smith's
Anthropological
Gossip
*
Penfield's
Homunculus
*
Ditty
Taped at Jack's
*
Historic
Paranoia
From
Boston
To
Lima
*
Back in
Mexico City
*
A Retired
Schoolteacher
In
Newark:
Visit To
Friend of the
Family
*
LSD Roars
*
Gaga &
Dialogue
W/ Lafcadio
*
N20 at the
Dentist
*
Mescaline Mouth
Ejaculations
Of Me
*
Poesy
*
Death
Concsciousness
*
Kaddish
Completed
"You're not done
with your moether
yet."
Sd/Elise C.
*
Come To
This
End.
**************************************************
typed for discussion purposes only by dbr
This second poem in Planet News is quite an abrupt shift from "Who will
take over the Universe?" It is political only in the sense that the
personal is the political. It is intraspection on intraspection
entwisted cyclonically like a complete unknown visionary known to all
spaketh these words.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:19:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: a place for aspiring writers?
In-Reply-To: <c29cf6cf.34cbc529@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In high school, quite of few of my friends and I put out homemade little
magazines or chapbooks. We'd put in some cool graphics thanks to our
computer, run em off and give them out, underground, since they werent
really allowed in our school. You had to know someone to get one. It was
fun while it lasted.
~Nancy
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, IDDHI wrote:
> Since so many people on this listserv write, and there have been a few
> requests for places to publish, I thought I'd pass this link along:
> http://www.worldwidemagazines.com/literary2.html
>
> Apparently a number of the magazines listed here encourage unpublished writers
> and poets, and are actively seeking submissions all the time.
>
> Few presses were available for avant garde and non-traditional stuff like Beat
> writers wrote in the Fifties. One thing I always really liked about them was
> their penchant for making little chapbooks, mimeographs of their works (who
> remembers mimeos?) Seems like Brautigan was especially big on that. I've seen
> people in recent days who've done the same thing, at PIP or Kinko's, then
> stood on street corners or found shelf space in record stores, where they gave
> their work away, partly to share beauty, and partly just to be read.
>
> I'd love to experience something as earth-shattering as the reading at the Six
> Gallery, but where are the poets? Surely we have enough to rage against today
> as the Beat Generation did.
>
> By the way, I'm not a poet, but I like it, as I've stated before in posts.
> Seems to me, though, that most readings around here happen at Barnes&Noble or
> something and are merchandising tie-ins to new books.
>
> Publish or perish, or, failing that, organize a reading, and invite me!
>
> Incognito in L.A.,
> Maggie
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:41:20 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
i second that, Maggie. really Sara & Thomas, why do you feel it necessary
to parade your personal correspondence in front of 250 people? after all
the complaints about what's appropos and what's not - this surely should be
obvious. and no i'm not humorless or opposed to love, quite the opposite -
but i don't think that i or anyone else on the list got on it to read "As
Sara's & Thomas' World Turns".
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Sunday, January 25, 1998 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
>In a message dated 25-Jan-98 6:02:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be writes:
>
><< Have a fucking sense of humor. >>
>
>I have a great sense of humor. I just don't happen to see what's humorous
(if
>that's your intention) about the personal correspondence between two people
>that should be done by back channel.
>
>Retitle your posts to read something like "personal bullshit sent to waste
>listserv space," and I'll be able to delete them without reading them and
will
>have no comment whatsoever.
>
>MD
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:41:40 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: crap and humor
Here! Here! patty
-----Original Message-----
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Sunday, January 25, 1998 7:25 PM
Subject: crap and humor
>so if i think posts are drivel and not very interesting i don't have a
>sense of humor, gee, i just thought they were boring posts, i didn't
>get there was some super secret humor to them. i sure didn't follow
>that, was it by chopping up the posts and crappy remarks until something
>of intelligence emerges. This most be all my fault, or i aren't beat
>enouf. i should of realized i wanted to hear about oj, clinton, di, or
>beef suits it snot crap, it hot freedom of speech issues, unavailable
>to us except on such escoteric shows such as hard copy. well, to make
>this a legel eagle post, if anyone wants an rivercity reunion program,
>shoot me your snail and i will mail one (black and white) i have
>hundreds, oh use back channel. if you please.
>pitch
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:46:33 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: crap and humor/beat not beat
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yo, homegirl, go.
i was beginning to feel brow BEATen.
Patricia Elliott wrote:
> so if i think posts are drivel and not very interesting i don't have a
> sense of humor, gee, i just thought they were boring posts, i didn't
> get there was some super secret humor to them. i sure didn't follow
> that, was it by chopping up the posts and crappy remarks until something
> of intelligence emerges. This most be all my fault, or i aren't beat
> enouf. i should of realized i wanted to hear about oj, clinton, di, or
> beef suits it snot crap, it hot freedom of speech issues, unavailable
> to us except on such escoteric shows such as hard copy. well, to make
> this a legel eagle post, if anyone wants an rivercity reunion program,
> shoot me your snail and i will mail one (black and white) i have
> hundreds, oh use back channel. if you please.
> pitch
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:56:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: "Sturm und Drang" and Beat
In-Reply-To: <c68b5ed2.34cbfe52@aol.com>
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Well, IDDHI, as Goethe once said, "Leck mich am Arsch!"
But seriously, has anyone ever read any of the German Sturm und Drang
literature? Like _Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers_ (or in English _The
Sorrows of Young Werther_)? That book was Beat 200 years before Beat. It
is as beautiful as On the Road, as ugly and as gorgeous as Howl. Has
anyone else read any Sturm und Drang? What's your take on it?
--Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:28:32 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: re; it's beat, it's love, davey isn't
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>
> Subject:
> Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
> Date:
> Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:56:04 EST
> From:
> IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
>
>
> In a message dated 25-Jan-98 4:44:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be writes:
>
> << I LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
>
> --Thomas >>
>
> Sara, Thomas... get a room, willya?
i second that emotion!!!!!!!!
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:04:09 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: re; it's beat, it's love, davey isn't
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Cathy Wilkie wrote:
>
> >
> > Subject:
> > Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
> > Date:
> > Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:56:04 EST
> > From:
> > IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 25-Jan-98 4:44:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> > thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be writes:
> >
> > << I LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
> >
> > --Thomas >>
> >
> > Sara, Thomas... get a room, willya?
>
> i second that emotion!!!!!!!!
>
> cathy
I thought the whole exchange was sorta cute ya know. I can see if the
saga became a daily thing it would get old but unless I missed something
during my hospitalization (entirely possible) these interactions aren't
quite to the level of soap opera - daily monotonous mesmerization - yet.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 00:03:41 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Journal Night Thoughts
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> David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
> This second poem in Planet News is quite an abrupt shift from "Who will
> take over the Universe?" It is political only in the sense that the
> personal is the political. It is intraspection on intraspection
> entwisted cyclonically like a complete unknown visionary known to all
> spaketh these words.
There's so much in this poem that it hard to find a beginning topic for
discussion. Agreed that the poem moves to the personal and the
visionary, a cosmic universe as opposed to a political one Things that
stand out to me are: that it begins and ends in bed--I would almost say
that in the love of the human body at the end, the poet finds the
redemption that eludes him in the visions in the poem. Many of the
images are probably terrifying, serpents, man with genitals larger than
his head, electrical wires in the brain, and there's the fear of death,
"to see myself alive on Broadway afraid I'm
in a forgotten movie where I die
not knowing my name"
"is it a living animal out there you're afraid of still
And my mother's skull not yet white in the darkness"
There are also a lot of mystic and psychological images in between, many
entangled in serpents and vomit:
"the eye in the center of the moving mandala--the
eye in the hand the eye in the asshole
serpent eating or vomiting its tail"
"the Kabbala sign in the vomit on the floor"
"Eliot's voice clanging over the sky on upper Broadway
'Only thru time is time conquered'
I am the answer: I will swallow my vomit and be naked"
"This woman is a serpent goddess accepting
the propitiation of a bunch of flowers
found in the Christmas snow"
"The cat vomited his canned food with a
mix of inch-long worms
that arched up over the dread plop"
"They drank a black elixir, and threw it up
to have the serpent intwined in their eyeballs"
In the midst of all the images of evil and filth, we also have the poet,
the artist, creating his own salvation in the act of writing the poem:
"I walked alone, in the street, by myself
with no God to turn to
But what I Am--
who can create baby universes
in the mouth of the void--
spurt them out of my mind forever
to fill the Unimaginable with its
separate being--
So I left behind a message to the Consciousness
before I disappeared--
I wrote it on a stone & left it in Oklahoma
in the Indian mound..."
In this poem are many of the images that make AG's poetry visionary,
prophetic:
"As if it were all being tape recorded from my skull
to project the Kali Yuga" [the last age in the Hindu cycle before "cosmic
apocalyptic destruction]
So what does the poet do in the midst of a horrific,
apocalyptic vision--he writes the poem; he grounds himself in the
experience of love with another that comforts him.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:47:06 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: scope
Once again, Beat-l is not a chat room. Messages about the superbowl and
personal relationships have no place on this list. I have to ask
everyone to respect the scope of the list as defined in the original
welcome message.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:13:57 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: scope
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Bill Gargan wrote:
>
> Once again, Beat-l is not a chat room. Messages about the superbowl and
> personal relationships have no place on this list. I have to ask
> everyone to respect the scope of the list as defined in the original
> welcome message.
This is a good point. And I completely forgot that we do have access to
a chat room for times when some of us are drawn to compulsively chat.
Paul, my only problem is that I lost the information on KeroChat. Could
you re-post it at your convenience. Perhaps if many of us who tend to
get chatty would simply go to the chat room more often - it will be
easier to maintain the "scope" within the parameters suggested by Bill
the owner.
I'm particularly guilty yesterday but am not dwelling on it. I confess
and I typed that long ass Ginsberg poem for discussion onto the list to
make up for my crimes and misdemeanors. Maybe others who have been
excessively chatty could also become active in participating on a few
things within the clear scope of the List.
just a couple thoughts from KS,
david
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:21:33 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Literary Magazines and Ginsberg Poem
Content-Type: text/plain
Like the idiot I am, I deleted a whole bunch of messages I didn't want
to.. Could someone repost the web address of that site about literary
magazines which accept stuff from unpublished/unknown poet/authors?
and that poem (was it david who posted it originally?) of ginsberg's
written in 1961??
I'd appreciate it.
-Greg
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Updated regularly, extensive poems, images *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:52:21 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Literary Magazines, reposted
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boy, i hope this doesn't duplicate or triplicate or grow out of control. and i
hope it's useful information for a bunch of you
Here it is again: since so many people on this listserv write, and there have
been a few requests for places to publish, I thought I'd pass this link along:
http://www.worldwidemagazines.com/literary2.html
Apparently a number of the magazines listed here encourage unpublished writers
and poets, and are actively seeking submissions all the time.
Few presses were available for avant garde and non-traditional stuff like Beat
writers wrote in the Fifties. One thing I always really liked about them was
their penchant for making little chapbooks, mimeographs of their works (who
remembers mimeos?) Seems like Brautigan was especially big on that. I've seen
people in recent days who've done the same thing, at PIP or Kinko's, then
stood on street corners or found shelf space in record stores, where they gave
their work away, partly to share beauty, and partly just to be read.
I'd love to experience something as earth-shattering as the reading at the Six
Gallery, but where are the poets? Surely we have enough to rage against today
as the Beat Generation did.
By the way, I'm not a poet, but I like it, as I've stated before in posts.
Seems to me, though, that most readings around here happen at Barnes&Noble or
something and are merchandising tie-ins to new books.
Publish or perish, or, failing that, organize a reading, and invite me!
Incognito in L.A.,
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:07:55 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Jack Kerouac and Gian Pieretti during 1966.
In-Reply-To: <34CA1172.125A@eunet.yu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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amici,
--- Come una pietra che rotola: la sindrome Dylan
Like a rolling stone: Dylan syndrome
article written in italian by Luciano Ceri e Ernesto De Pascale---
[my version of the excerpt]
Gian Pieretti appare
Gian Pieretti was in musical magazine
sui giornali musicali
during (circa) mid 60s'
dell' epoca (1966)
sue foto in compagnia
photographed to enjoy Kerouac's company
di Jack Kerouac, in
quel periodo in Italia
Jack Kerouac was in Italy to promote
per la promozione di
"Big Sur" appena tradotto;
the book "Big Sur" just translated in italian
lo accompagna infatti in
una serie di incontri con
Gian Pieretti took Jack Kerouac in several meetings
la stampa e con il
with the press and in front of people
pubblico che Jack Kerouac
ebbe a Milano, Roma e
in Milan, Rome and Naples
Napoli, esibendosi con
qualche canzone mentre
Gian Pieretti performed some songs
Kerouac si rifornisce
while Kerouac turned to drink
abbondatemente di birre,
a lot of beer
essendogli stati proibiti
i superalcolici. Niente
because of the high alcohol drinks prevented.
male come trovata
promozionale dell'ufficio
This advertising event was scheduled
stampa della Mondadori,
by Mondadori publisher of "Big Sur"
anche se questo accredita
a Gian Pieretti, visto che
Gian Pieretti was recognized as a true italian beat
accanto a lui c'e' uno
because the closeness to a father of the beat generation
dei capostipiti della beat
generation letteraria, una
sorta di patente di autenticita'
beat francamente un po' artefatta,
con buona pace di Kerouac che
in peace and quiet while Keroauc was always to sober border.
appare perennemente ai limiti
della sobrieta'.
---
Gian Pieretti was a singer a lot famous in the Sixties
in Italy and this friendship with Jack Kerouac gave him
the credit to be the first italian beat, but i think,
the first italian beat was a woman exactly Carmen Villani.
saluti a tutti,
Rinaldo.
-------
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--=====================_885834475==_--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:50:14 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: "Sturm und Drang" and Beat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980126085150.14150A-100000@uoft02.utoledo.e du>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sara wrote:
>Well, IDDHI, as Goethe once said, "Leck mich am Arsch!"
>
>But seriously, has anyone ever read any of the German Sturm und Drang
>literature? Like _Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers_ (or in English _The
>Sorrows of Young Werther_)? That book was Beat 200 years before Beat. It
>is as beautiful as On the Road, as ugly and as gorgeous as Howl. Has
>anyone else read any Sturm und Drang? What's your take on it?
> --Sara
>
Sara you reminded me...
before sturm und drang i think there's an italian (venetian) poet
named Ugo Foscolo(1778-1827), who wrote "Le ultime lettere di Jacopo Ortis"
_The last letters of Jacopo Ortis_ about the juvenile pain
of romantic love same period of goethe.
but Foscolo was a young cosmopolitan poet, he was a political
refugee (as many italians) and devasted of the suicidal death
of his brother cuz of debt of honour. Ugo Foscolo banished by
Napoleone Bonaparte was living the last years of his life in
London, where he died in dire poverty at Turnham Green near
London. Many times i pass by the house he lived in Venice,
near the fondamenta of San Marco (Castello).
In the beginning of spring the wall of the house are adorned
by geraniums...near a strange tavern maybe the same he go to...
saluti,
Rinaldo.
-------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:00:04 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: 1957 or 1998?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Certainly, eternal relevance is a hallmark of the best literature and/or
philosophy. But even knowing that, I found my mind blown today by the
relevance of this passage from DESOLATION ANGELS:
...........................................................
My money came and it was time to go but there's poor Irwin at midnight calling
up to me from the garden "come on down Jack-Kee, there's a big bunch of
hipsters and chicks from Paris in Bull's room." And just in New York or Frisco
or anywhere there they are all hunching around in marijuana smoke, talking,
the cool girls with thin legs in slacks, the men with goatees, all an enormous
drag after all and at the time (1957) not even started yet officially with the
name of "Beat Generation." To think that I had something to do with it too, in
fact at that very moment the manuscript of ROAD was being linotyped for
imminent publication and I was already sick of the whole subject. Nothing can
be more dreary than "coolness" (not Irwin's cool, or Bull's, or Simon's, which
is natural quietness) but postured actually secretly RIGID coolness that
covers up the fact that the character is unable to convey anything of force or
interest, a kind of sociological coolness soon to become a fad up into the
mass of middleclass youth for awhile. There's even a kind of insultingness,
probably unintentional, like when I said to the Paris girl just fresh she said
from visiting a Persian Shah for Tiger hunt "Did you actually shoot the tiger
yourself?" she gave me a cold look as tho I'd just tried to kiss her at the
window of a Drama School. Or tried to trip the Huntress. Or something. But all
I could do was sit on the of the bed in despair like Lazarus listening to
their awful "likes" and "like you know" and "wow crazy" and "a wig, man" "a
real gas"-- All this was about to sprout out all over America even down to
High School level and be attributed in part to my doing!
.....................................................
There are some quotes, a bunch of them, whose essence is: "Don't imitate what
you study, but use knowledge to beat a new path," or something to that effect.
That's been running through my head when reading some of the recent posts (I
won't mention which ones) and reflecting on the state of "being Beat." Anyone
who has a quote that resembles what I've written here, could you please mail
it to me? I'd appreciate it.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:11:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Sturm und Drang" and Beat
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980126195014.00701ee8@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Thanks, Rinaldo, I'll definitely check that out. _Die Leiden des jungen
Werthers_ is very similar... A young, emotional man falls in love with a
girl who is engaged to some one else. They fall in love, but she marries
the guy to whom she was already engaged. Werther (the aforementioned
young, emotional man) shoots himself, and his death is described in great
detail. The book is written as a series of letters, in which Werther
describes his emotions in detail, and the whole novel is just beautiful.
I've always wanted to compare the Sturm und Drang works with the American
Beat-generation works, because Beat could be considered a later, American
"Sturm und Drang" period.
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> Sara wrote:
> >Well, IDDHI, as Goethe once said, "Leck mich am Arsch!"
> >
> >But seriously, has anyone ever read any of the German Sturm und Drang
> >literature? Like _Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers_ (or in English _The
> >Sorrows of Young Werther_)? That book was Beat 200 years before Beat. It
> >is as beautiful as On the Road, as ugly and as gorgeous as Howl. Has
> >anyone else read any Sturm und Drang? What's your take on it?
> > --Sara
> >
> Sara you reminded me...
> before sturm und drang i think there's an italian (venetian) poet
> named Ugo Foscolo(1778-1827), who wrote "Le ultime lettere di Jacopo Ortis"
> _The last letters of Jacopo Ortis_ about the juvenile pain
> of romantic love same period of goethe.
> but Foscolo was a young cosmopolitan poet, he was a political
> refugee (as many italians) and devasted of the suicidal death
> of his brother cuz of debt of honour. Ugo Foscolo banished by
> Napoleone Bonaparte was living the last years of his life in
> London, where he died in dire poverty at Turnham Green near
> London. Many times i pass by the house he lived in Venice,
> near the fondamenta of San Marco (Castello).
> In the beginning of spring the wall of the house are adorned
> by geraniums...near a strange tavern maybe the same he go to...
>
> saluti,
> Rinaldo.
> -------
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:31:05 -0500
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From: "James F. Wood 253-7886" <WOODJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Back to Allen (was Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David)
In-Reply-To: <34CAB59A.79D7@midusa.net>
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i again that may be the reason as you suggested, I dont know much about all
this computer stuff except how to send most e-mail and surf the web.
Thanks
see ya
Jim Wood
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:07:25 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: "Sturm und Drang" and Beat
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"Sturm and Drang" conntect to Beat only in so much as Beat is in a line of
evolution from Romanticism, (of which Sturm and Drang is a subset) in it's
emphasis on the personal and the alienation of the individual in an increasingly
complex society--to be pedantic about it. You could probably seem some
connection between The Sorrows of Young Werther and Howl, but I doubt that it
would illuminate either work much.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:29:50 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: 1957 or 1998?
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Maggie Dharma wrote:
>
> .....................................................
> There are some quotes, a bunch of them, whose essence is: "Don't imitate what
> you study, but use knowledge to beat a new path," or something to that effect.
> That's been running through my head when reading some of the recent posts (I
> won't mention which ones) and reflecting on the state of "being Beat." Anyone
> who has a quote that resembles what I've written here, could you please mail
> it to me? I'd appreciate it.
> Maggie
it was fairly obvious but this was most of what my ditty Zyprexa Blues
#235 was ALL about. And it runs the gamut of culture not just beats. I
sent that writing to former bosses and students and colleagues around
the country and a former Hawkeye student who is now a lawyer wrote back
almost immediately about how clearly he could identify with the "kill
Jacky" portion.
siesta time,
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:21:20 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: scope
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YO, brother bill. thanks again
mc
Bill Gargan wrote:
> Once again, Beat-l is not a chat room. Messages about the superbowl and
> personal relationships have no place on this list. I have to ask
> everyone to respect the scope of the list as defined in the original
> welcome message.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:46:29 EST
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From: Nico 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jack Kerouac and Gian Pieretti during 1966.
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In a message dated 98-01-26 13:14:06 EST, you write:
> i think,
> the first italian beat was a woman exactly Carmen Villani.
>
hey, Rinaldo--
this is interesting-- could you tell us a little more about Signora
Villani?
in america, women didn't have much place in the (popularized) beat movement,
(and fine, anyone can disagree with me on this, but i dont know who would)
other than Cassady's wonderful kicks, be it sex or physical abuse, so i'd dig
an italian beat lady, definitely.
tutte buone cose,
Ginny
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:03:54 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: 9' O2 7" 2F
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Hi everybody
Gong Xi Fa Cai
Gong Xi Fa cai
=B9=A7 =CF=B2 =B7=A2 =B2=C6=20
=AE=A5 =B3=DF =B5o =B0]=20
Xin Nian Kuai Le !!
=B7s =A6~ =A7=D6 =BC=D6=20
=D0=C2 =C4=EA =BF=EC =C0=D6=20
Congrats and get rich
Saludos Amigos
Prospero ano y felicidades
(To the tune of Freres Jacques)
Two Old Tigers, Two Old Tigers
Running Fast, Running Fast
One of them got no eyes, one of them got no ears
ain't that weird ain't that weird
=A4=EB =ABG =A4=FD
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:08:39 -0800
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From: Mary Maconnell <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>
Subject: beat weekend
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So aside from a party on Saturday night which I don't remember I ended up
finishing "Junky" and reading the whole of Carolyn Cassady's book, "Heart
Beat: My Life With Jack and Neal." I really really really loved Junky and
totally got into it and since I had previously tried to read "The Wild
Boys" and couldn't get into it I felt Burroughs was re-established as
a writer good and true in my eyes. Carolyn's book was revealing to me
(as I didn't know she and Jack had an affair but I'm not surprised) and
was wondering what anyone else thought about it.
So right now I'm reading "Jack's Book" (can't remember the author's name)
and "Tristessa" by Jack and totally digging this groove but can't help
but wonder if I'm doing too much reading and not enough _doing_ lately --
you know what I mean?
Mary
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:35:04 -0600
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From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: beat weekend
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Mary Maconnell wrote:
> So aside from a party on Saturday night which I don't remember I ended up
> finishing "Junky" and reading the whole of Carolyn Cassady's book, "Heart
> Beat: My Life With Jack and Neal." Carolyn's book was revealing to me
> (as I didn't know she and Jack had an affair but I'm not surprised) and
> was wondering what anyone else thought about it.
I enjoyed this book as well. You might be interested to know that it is in
fact an excerpt from the later-published "Off The Road: My Years With
Cassady, Kerouac, & Ginsberg," which is well worth reading. It is
refreshing to get a woman's intimate perspective on the Beat G's "inner
circle."
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:13:16 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: beat weekend
Comments: cc: Mary Maconnell <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>
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Mary Maconnell wrote:
>
> So aside from a party on Saturday night which I don't remember I ended up
> finishing "Junky" and reading the whole of Carolyn Cassady's book, "Heart
> Beat: My Life With Jack and Neal." I really really really loved Junky and
> totally got into it and since I had previously tried to read "The Wild
> Boys" and couldn't get into it I felt Burroughs was re-established as
> a writer good and true in my eyes. Carolyn's book was revealing to me
> (as I didn't know she and Jack had an affair but I'm not surprised) and
> was wondering what anyone else thought about it.
>
> So right now I'm reading "Jack's Book" (can't remember the author's name)
> and "Tristessa" by Jack and totally digging this groove but can't help
> but wonder if I'm doing too much reading and not enough _doing_ lately --
> you know what I mean?
>
> Mary
Keep up the good work, Mary. Carolyn's book HEART BEAT can know be seen
as a first draft of her memior OFF THE ROAD, a crucial volume which
indisputably possesses canonical status in the sphere of Beat Lit. (The
horrible movie based on HEART BEAT doesn't deserve comment.) WILD BOYS
is tough going and reserved for the Truly Devoted, though it rewards the
Earnest Reader. JUNKY is required reading, and, IMHO, best enjoyed when
read concurrently with the relevant passages in WSB's SELECTED LETTERS
and LITERARY OUTLAW (the WSB bio). Concurrent reading is great kicks
with JUNKY, especially when you can determine where Bill adheres to
things as they happened and where he fictionalized. JACK'S BOOK is
wonderful, of course, but upon relection, I wonder how many of the
numerous _Kerouac Myths_ originated from this really neat oral
biography. You're reading TRISTESSA? Cool. Sounds like you've got the
Beat Bug bad. I won't advise you as to what to read next. Just keep
doin' what yer doin'.
And no, you're not doing too much reading. Reading IS doing. Reading IS
experience.
humbly,
John Hasbrouck, LM
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:57:22 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: beat weekend
In-Reply-To: <01ISU2W8SH0I8Y586M@mail.ewu.edu>
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I consider it very beat to just sit by my window, reading my books and
smoking my cigarettes. There's more than one way to be beat, you know but
I know what Mary means about doing too much reading and not enough doing,
but sometimes, all you can do is read...
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Mary
Maconnell wrote:
> So aside from a party on Saturday night which I don't remember I ended up
> finishing "Junky" and reading the whole of Carolyn Cassady's book, "Heart
> Beat: My Life With Jack and Neal." I really really really loved Junky and
> totally got into it and since I had previously tried to read "The Wild
> Boys" and couldn't get into it I felt Burroughs was re-established as
> a writer good and true in my eyes. Carolyn's book was revealing to me
> (as I didn't know she and Jack had an affair but I'm not surprised) and
> was wondering what anyone else thought about it.
>
> So right now I'm reading "Jack's Book" (can't remember the author's name)
> and "Tristessa" by Jack and totally digging this groove but can't help
> but wonder if I'm doing too much reading and not enough _doing_ lately --
> you know what I mean?
>
> Mary
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:33:14 EST
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From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: beat weekend
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In a message dated 26-Jan-98 5:31:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU writes:
<< just sit by my window, reading my books and smoking my cigarettes >>
I don't know if it's Beat or not, but you made me long for the days when I
used to do that!
The view's not much, but man, the light is good.
maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:24:14 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: beat weekend
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Mary Maconnell wrote:
> I really really really loved Junky and
> totally got into it and since I had previously tried to read "The Wild
> Boys" and couldn't get into it I felt Burroughs was re-established as
> a writer good and true in my eyes.
>
i loaned my copy of Junky to a Junky in hopes that he might be willing
to fight the borders of illiteracy he faced with a subject that he could
relate to. it is my understanding that he did not read it and left it
in a crackhouse somewhere.
about a year later he was in the headlines. a wealthy man had been
financing the young guys drug habits and in exchange their was some
level of same sex stimulation as quid pro quo. The young guy -- and i
don't remember his name these days -- could not handle the situation and
killed him dead. he was convicted and either is in prison or committed
suicide.
since then a friend let me have my fingers on the two cassette version
of William reading Junkie and it is just amazing to hear it in his
voice. I listened to it many many times in my car and on my last trip
East through Lawrence to Kansas City (before flying to my satori in
Paris). My favorite line is about the young girl who died falling off a
horse. I left the cassettes with my Father to listen to.
david
> Mary
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:52:53 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: no words
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no words, no soul no hearbeat within in whidh i can feel the reality-
what is reality? am still lost in the middle of america -metaphoric more
than real, as i am in the midst of not of west but new england....by
which return is by train is desolate plains with distant mountains in
the backgrorund... (aware of typos, just dooj't care)
no words
no wish to seek out memory
memory is flawed beyond the memory of past and long term past..
no memory
or words to prompt memory
lost soul
don't send a quick memory trick
or drug
alone alone alone alone
we are born (in my case to an incubator) alone
and notwishstanding bardos,
still believe we die alone
alone
alone
alone
my toiiet has just been unnplugged.
i will treeasuure it' s unplllugging
sarah who came with plunnger
alone
in the dark
with shit pouurijg out of the hole
of the toilet
no shit pours from me, leaving me stuck in the moment-
sarah, serephin of plunger, i give thanks to you..
something is broken
broken
it is not the toilet
it is me
and no sarah with pllunger can save mme
goodnighmc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:44:29 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: no words
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> no words, no soul no hearbeat within in whidh i can feel the reality-
> what is reality? am still lost in the middle of america -metaphoric more
> than real, as i am in the midst of not of west but new england....by
> which return is by train is desolate plains with distant mountains in
> the backgrorund... (aware of typos, just dooj't care)
> no words
> no wish to seek out memory
> memory is flawed beyond the memory of past and long term past..
> no memory
> or words to prompt memory
> lost soul
> don't send a quick memory trick
> or drug
> alone alone alone alone
> we are born (in my case to an incubator) alone
> and notwishstanding bardos,
> still believe we die alone
> alone
> alone
> alone
> my toiiet has just been unnplugged.
> i will treeasuure it' s unplllugging
> sarah who came with plunnger
> alone
> in the dark
> with shit pouurijg out of the hole
> of the toilet
> no shit pours from me, leaving me stuck in the moment-
> sarah, serephin of plunger, i give thanks to you..
> something is broken
> broken
> it is not the toilet
> it is me
> and no sarah with pllunger can save mme
> goodnighmc
3-30-1994
Home Office
4321 7th Avenue
Rock Island Illinois
7:06 a.m.
NO MORE WORDS
What does a poet do when there is nothing left to write.
When the terrors and horrors in his soul
defy expression
when the joys and ecstasies
of love
go far beyond the power of words
What does a poet do then?
I sit and hope that
the terrors and horrors
are merely figments
of my overactive imagination.
I sit and hope that
the joys and ecstasies
will remain with me eternally
and I begin to
listen more closely to others
and I begin to
practice the poetic art
of staying quiet
of silence
golden silence
hearing a pin drop
in the next room
hearing the cries for freedom
from another continent far away
hearing the pain and agony
of an abused woman across town
hearing the reality
of the world
which I have fled
and escaped from for so long
and this time
I must face reality
squarely
and not flinch
and not back down
relieve myself of
all my cowardice
and through all the frightful moments
maintain
hope and faith
and above all
a serenity
which relates to the state of mind
we call
peaceful.
copyright 3-30-1994 david b. rhaesa
marie your title reminded me of this oldie. david
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:19:20 PST
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From: john boggs <jaboggs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: sturm und drang
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sara asked-
>But seriously, has anyone ever read any of the German Sturm und Drang
>literature? Like _Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers_ (or in English _The
>Sorrows of Young Werther_)? That book was Beat 200 years before Beat.
It
>is as beautiful as On the Road, as ugly and as gorgeous as Howl. Has
>anyone else read any Sturm und Drang? What's your take on it?
> --Sara
>
i read the sorrows of young werther about 4 months ago when my fiance
abruptly broke up with me. it, along with ginsberg, helped keep me sane
after i hit rock bottom. tremendous stuff indeed...goethe delt with some
of the same ideas found in the beats and was as fully alive as they
were. he, too, had a capacity to feel profound emotions. thank you
bringing the connection between goethe and the beats fully to my
attention, it has provided me with some interesting ideas to ponder.
-john b
----------------------------------------------------
...allegories are so much lettuce
Don't hide the madness.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:46:34 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Last Time I committed Suicide: The Prologue
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"Some believe Neal Cassady to be the real genius behind the beat
movement.
"His persona and free-flowing letters have been the inspiration of
authors such as Jack Kerouac and songwriters like Jerry Garcia of the
Grateful Dead.
"The 'Aviator of American Hipness', Neal Cassady became legendary from a
series of cross country adventures, his unique ability to con strangers
and his inability to turn down a good time . . . .
"A man's life is merely a collection of events building one upon the
other. When all the events are tallied - the triumphs; the failures;
the mistakes; their sum makes up the man.
"These are but a few events in the life of 'Superman.'
The movie follows ......
1) The movie cannot make ANY sense without a deep understanding of
these preliminary remarks. Absent an understanding of the frame of
reference, the terministic screens fixed by the above words any notions
about the film seem rather absurd.
2) The Legend of Cassady preceded his coming to New York in On the
Road. I had asked on the List for any information about the legends
attributed to Hal Chase (Harr????) by Jack Kerouac in the opening pages
of On the Road with no reply. It seems that such grapevine attributions
of the legend which preceded Neal would hardly be accurate but would
likely be much more tales of Denver very similar to those depicted in
the film.
And so this film is only about one event, one letter -- important but
only minutely in understanding Neal. It seems a wonderful jumping off
point for FFC's treatment of On the Road.
I will digress and mention something about FFC's On the Road before
closing. It seems to me that the style of cinematic writing which Jack
employs in Doctor Sax should first be used to translate On the Road.
Whereever possible the voice recordings of Jack reading from On the Road
or other readings which fit in should be background with almost silent
movie action occurring on the screen. And the movie should be preceded
by several shorts of the 3 stooges. :)!:)!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:22:34 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: "Sturm und Drang" and Beat
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Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> Well, IDDHI, as Goethe once said, "Leck mich am Arsch!"
>
> But seriously, has anyone ever read any of the German Sturm und Drang
> literature? Like _Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers_ (or in English _The
> Sorrows of Young Werther_)? That book was Beat 200 years before Beat. It
> is as beautiful as On the Road, as ugly and as gorgeous as Howl. Has
> anyone else read any Sturm und Drang? What's your take on it?
> --Sara
i always thought that 'werther' is tooo pathetic. 'the faust' is too
important. but, heine writes beautiful poetry.
oh, yes, speaking of homosexuality, i read that it was discovered that
goethe and shiller had 'an intimate relationship'.
btw, what actually is considered sturm and drang?
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:01:49 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: maggie cassidy
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i heard somewhere (can't remember now where) that kerouac went back to
lowell for a visit when he was getting into his alcoholic phase, and
that he went to visit 'maggie cassidy' (mary carney????) after not
seeing her for over ten years, and that he was drunk when he went to
visit her.
can anyone out there provide more details? I"d be interested in how she
reacted to a drunken jack after all those years...
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:14:21 -0600
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From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: sturm und drang
In-Reply-To: <19980127051921.26221.qmail@hotmail.com>
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"But then they danced down the street like dingledodies, and I shambled
after as I've been doing all my life after people who interest me, because
the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad
to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the
ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like
fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and
in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes 'Awww!'
WHAT DID THEY CALL SUCH YOUNG PEOPLE IN GOETHE'S GERMANY?"
_On the Road_, p. 8 (Upper case emphasis of last sentence my own)
Mike Skau
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, john boggs wrote:
> sara asked-
>
>
>
> >But seriously, has anyone ever read any of the German Sturm und Drang
> >literature? Like _Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers_ (or in English _The
> >Sorrows of Young Werther_)? That book was Beat 200 years before Beat.
> It
> >is as beautiful as On the Road, as ugly and as gorgeous as Howl. Has
> >anyone else read any Sturm und Drang? What's your take on it?
> > --Sara
> >
> i read the sorrows of young werther about 4 months ago when my fiance
> abruptly broke up with me. it, along with ginsberg, helped keep me sane
> after i hit rock bottom. tremendous stuff indeed...goethe delt with some
> of the same ideas found in the beats and was as fully alive as they
> were. he, too, had a capacity to feel profound emotions. thank you
> bringing the connection between goethe and the beats fully to my
> attention, it has provided me with some interesting ideas to ponder.
>
> -john b
> ----------------------------------------------------
> ...allegories are so much lettuce
> Don't hide the madness.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 01:15:48 EST
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From: RoadSide6 <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Some help please
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Yeah, I know I am the millionth person to ask, but could someone please
forward me info on unsubscribing?
Gracias
Much appreciated
Blah blah blah
LD
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:49:21 -0600
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From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Burroughs typos
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Neil,
The article of mine to which Jeff Taylor was referring is "The Central
Verbal System: The Prose of William Burroughs"; it was published in the
scholarly periodical _Style_ 15.4 (Fall 1981): 401-414. In the section
from which Jeff quoted, I go on to illustrate my point:
"Burroughs also refuses to correct typographical errors in his prose;
thus, the misspellings and typographical peculiarities in his volume
_Time_ follow a prefatory letter allegedly from the publisher claiming:
'There are no typographical errors in this edition.'[Footnote] These
errata comprise further assaults on verbal control, with Burroughs in one
instance even applauding the felicitous quality of one of his mistakes:
"That is why the habit, once contracted, is so difficult to break, and why
it leaves, when broken suck* a vacuum behind. (*A slip but what a succinct
expression of the oral basis of addiction, the horror of oral deprivation
of 'sucking a vacuum.')' (_White Subway_ 11)." (p. 404)
Hope this helps.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:24:07 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: maggie cassidy
Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net
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>i heard somewhere (can't remember now where) that kerouac went back to
>lowell for a visit when he was getting into his alcoholic phase, and
>that he went to visit 'maggie cassidy' (mary carney????) after not
>seeing her for over ten years, and that he was drunk when he went to
>visit her.
>
>can anyone out there provide more details? I"d be interested in how she
>reacted to a drunken jack after all those years...
>
>cathy
Actually the recent biography called Angel Headed Hipster says a lot more
than this. It claims that he continued a relationship with Mary Carney for
a number of years after he left Lowel and that he even was the real father
of her daughter.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 01:19:34 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Lust of the flesh, ignorant craving
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First off we have discussed the First Noble Truth:
(I really enjoyed everyone's posts on this subject)
All Life is Suffering
and compared with:
Rom. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in
pain together until now.
The second is:
Suffering is caused by desire (or craving)
How does this correspond with:
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the
lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of
the world.
How similar are ignorant craving of the second Noble truth and the lusts of
the flesh of the new testament?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:20:36 +0100
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From: Nils-Oivind Haagensen <Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>
Subject: another kerouac dream, marie
In-Reply-To: <"noralf.uib.875:27.01.98.05.15.10"@uib.no>
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had a dream lst night where i stumbled upon
a kerouac sale in some nameless
bookstore, they had books on and by him i've
never seen or heard of
so i start to pick out titles
some guy is actually helping me
for some reason
throwing me books
then as things got a little crazy
i noticed my notebooks, my own private
dirty notebooks and old letters
were on sale too, so now i'm trying to pick out
th beat-g and jack k. stuff i haven't read
before and at the same time trying to keep
the notebooks and letters to myself.
it's awful
then it changes
real sudden and i'm at a lecture on jack k.
and the prof. whos just released a book
with pictures of jack k. asks the class
what picture they would like him
to go on about in detail
what picture of jack k. that is
someone says: all of them
everybody laughs
then someone else is real specific
this and that picture on page so and so
ev'body finds it, the prof. finds it
nods says something like "great choice"
but i'm in trouble
i'm thumbing trough the book
not finding anyone even resembling jack k.
looking at the others
who's now getting into it
thumbing through the book again
but no luck
n i wake up
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:22:31 -0500
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From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: sturm und drang
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.96.980127000706.5456B-100000@cwis.unomaha.edu>
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Yes!!! Exactly... That passage is the soul and essence of Sturm und Drang.
Sturm und Drang means "Storm and Stress." The period was known for it's
emphasis on the irrational, on emotions, on extreme beauty and extreme
ugliness. I wonder how familiar Kerouac was with Sturm und Drang...
Apparently he had at least some familiarity with it. The parallels are
just beautiful...
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Michael Skau wrote:
> "But then they danced down the street like dingledodies, and I shambled
> after as I've been doing all my life after people who interest me, because
> the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad
> to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the
> ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like
> fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and
> in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes 'Awww!'
> WHAT DID THEY CALL SUCH YOUNG PEOPLE IN GOETHE'S GERMANY?"
> _On the Road_, p. 8 (Upper case emphasis of last sentence my own)
> Mike Skau
>
> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, john boggs wrote:
>
> > sara asked-
> >
> >
> >
> > >But seriously, has anyone ever read any of the German Sturm und Drang
> > >literature? Like _Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers_ (or in English _The
> > >Sorrows of Young Werther_)? That book was Beat 200 years before Beat.
> > It
> > >is as beautiful as On the Road, as ugly and as gorgeous as Howl. Has
> > >anyone else read any Sturm und Drang? What's your take on it?
> > > --Sara
> > >
> > i read the sorrows of young werther about 4 months ago when my fiance
> > abruptly broke up with me. it, along with ginsberg, helped keep me sane
> > after i hit rock bottom. tremendous stuff indeed...goethe delt with some
> > of the same ideas found in the beats and was as fully alive as they
> > were. he, too, had a capacity to feel profound emotions. thank you
> > bringing the connection between goethe and the beats fully to my
> > attention, it has provided me with some interesting ideas to ponder.
> >
> > -john b
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > ...allegories are so much lettuce
> > Don't hide the madness.
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:41:19 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: backbeat
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bob kaufman
SLIGHT ALTERATIONS
I climb a red thread
To an unseen exixtence,
Broken free, somewhere,
Beyond the belts.
Ticks have abandoned
My astonished time.
The air littered
with demolished hours.
Presence abolished
I become a ray
>From the sun
Anonymous finger
Deflected into hungry windows
Boomerang of curved light
Ricocheted off dark walls
The ceiling remembers my face
The floor is a palate of surprise
Watching me eat the calendar
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:15:10 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: no words
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i just consulted with emily post, and with bill's 'scope' in mind, i
must apologize. that was in a drafts folder, not mail. dunno what
happened, but i have realized a truth:
when one is having a public mental
brake down
one should drive in the slow lane,
as far away from the send button as possible.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:33:09 +0100
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From: paul caspers <caspers@WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: buk
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hi all,
'the captain is out to lunch and the sailors have taken over the ship'
by buk, february 1 release date.... anyone know what exactly this is? poems?
stories? poems+stories? novel? whatever... if anyone who knows could mail
privately i'd appreciate it cos i'm pretty curious and off the list... thanks !
paul
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:06:37 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Lust of the flesh, ignorant craving
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> First off we have discussed the First Noble Truth:
> (I really enjoyed everyone's posts on this subject)
>
> All Life is Suffering
>
> and compared with:
>
> Rom. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in
> pain together until now.
>
> The second is:
>
> Suffering is caused by desire (or craving)
>
> How does this correspond with:
>
> 1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the
> lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of
> the world.
>
> How similar are ignorant craving of the second Noble truth and the lusts of
> the flesh of the new testament?
the source of the new testament writing here is quite different than
that of Romans. Saul/Paul is just a beat dude who had an epiphany. The
Gospel of John is a slightly different matter. The Book of John IMHO is
by far the most interesting book in the colelction we call the Bible.
It begins with the Logos and it seems that this connects with some of
the questions concerning WSB's theories concerning Word as a Virus.
What we get in translation as "The Word" is in the Greek "Logos" but
this was a far more holistic term than mere logic and contained
something similar to the many sides of beat and beatific in its
difficulty to pin down in translation. It is perhaps the ultimate of
the viral that the symbol of Logos has been translated to Word even
capitalized.
just a preliminary thought,
dbr
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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:53:27 -0500
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From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Where's the beef? (was: Re: beat weekend)
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I find it rather amusing that folks in this listserv are offering up tips on=
"how to be Beat." It reminds me of that old Saturday Night Live skit in=
which a group of muchachos sat around debating, "Quien es muy macho?" I'm=
not sure this line of discussion is of much value.=20
Indeed, I would argue that, much like concepts such as "cool" or "punk" or=
"existentialist," the concept of "Beat" has been bled dry of anything=
resembling Kerouac's genuine experience of it. After all, we even had=
Mayard G. Krebs back in the late 50s satirizing Beat, 60s hippies latching=
on to nothing but its most superficial aspects, and 90s grundge kids=
reducing the concept the mere prefacing of every sentence with the word=
"like."
What's even more interesting is that, while folks are pondering whether it's=
more Beat to be "doing" rather than "reading" (is reading not doing?),=
there's a curious absence of desire to plumb the literature itself ("I had=
previously tried to read "The Wild Boys" and couldn't get into it...")=
unless it's of the most accessible nature (Junky, Caroline Cassidy's=
efforts).=20
While the ephemera of Beat has either fallen by the wayside or become=
laughably dated ("...I'm totally digging this groove..."), the=
_literature_ remains. It's a literature made by people who considered=
themselves members of no school but whom, through perversions of media, the=
academy, and the sheep who accept both unquestioningly, were pigeonholed=
into one. Despite the attempts of the media and academy to force these=
writers into space in which they could be stripped of their dignity, this=
literature survives and truly is worthy of our serious consideration.
It was my (erroneous?) presumption that this discussion group was set up for=
this very purpose, as a forum for the discussion of (so-called, but for=
lack of a better term) Beat literature. In the hopes of stirring up some=
worthwhile discussion, I'm posting the paper below for=
review/comment/attack/etc.=20
Regards,
Ed
Appropriation and Transmogrification
in William S. Burroughs=92 _Exterminator!_
" . . . Everything belongs to the inspired and dedicated thief. All the=
artists of history, from cave painters to Picasso, all the poets and=
writers, the musicians and architects, offer their wares, importuning him=
like street vendors . . . . Mais le voleur n=92est pas press=E9=97the thief=
is in no hurry. He must assure himself of the merchandise and its=
suitability for his purpose before he conveys the supreme honor and=
benediction of his theft."
=97William S. Burroughs, Les Voleurs (Burroughs 1985, p. 21)
William Burroughs has not been reticent to discuss the ethic of=
appropriation that informs his work. Implicit in this ethic is the notion=
of an illicit, illegal act which, when applied to his processes of writing=
fiction, inspires criticism that dismisses his work as mere "plumbing" or=
strident accusations of out-and-out plagiarism. Burroughs, however, has=
countered: "Words don=92t have brands on them the way cattle do . . . .=
Ever heard of a word rustler?" (Morgan 1988, p. 323). Despite this line of=
defense, it is not difficult to view Burroughs as something of a literary=
thief; a thief who skillfully doubles as his own fence between the loot and=
his fiction. It is in this role as fence that Burroughs disguises his=
loot; reshapes and recasts it; grinds off the serial numbers, as it were,=
to obscure the traces of its original ownership. He transforms this=
literary plunder and makes it his own. =20
This process of appropriation and transformation=97and with Burroughs=
transformation may be better read as transmogrification=97is very much=
evident in his collection of short fiction Exterminator! Nearly every=
page contains a character, a setting, a genre; a news report, a magazine=
advertisement, a political figure or speech=97something the reader has=
come across before. Burroughs has slipped deft fingers into the pockets of=
literature, film, history, art, and popular culture without discrimination.=
Though recognizable as artifacts, these elements have been pieced together=
in works that often appear fractured to the point of incomprehensibility or=
which devolve into graphic depictions of a violent, explosive anarchy. To=
argue that such a prose style is intended to reflect the author=92s=
perception of a world in which control systems have run amok may be a valid=
enterprise. Such an argument, however, seems unsatisfying and facile,=
particularly if one is interested in moving beyond the critic Anatole=
Broyard=92s characterization of Burroughs as "the grand guru of the fictive=
put-on," whose Exterminator! is nothing more than "a stale replay of Dr.=
Strangelove " (Morgan 1988, p. 469).
Moving beyond such a dismissal, however, is no easy task with a work such=
as Exterminator! Indeed, few have attempted to crack the nut of=
Burroughs=92 fiction. Burroughs himself has commented on the difficulty=
his work presents and asserts that what he=92s attempting is to "create=
multilevel events and characters that a reader could comprehend with his=
entire organic being" (Odier 1974, p. 35). Clearly, the manner in which=
Burroughs intends his work to be received is not one with which many=
readers are familiar or, perhaps, comfortable.
Despite the formidable nature of Burroughs=92 prose, it may be possible, at=
least, to break through the crust in order to come to some insights and=
conclusions regarding the nature and purpose of its "multilevel" approach. =
An examination of the appropriated material with which the text is=
composed; of the appearance and reappearance of this material; and of=
Burroughs=92 subversion of it can, I believe, provide one means of getting=
beneath the text=92s seemingly chaotic surface. By so doing, this paper=
seeks to uncover an undercurrent of unity in which are developed such=
themes as obsession with control, addiction, hypocrisy, and, the quest for=
self. Attention will be focused on Burroughs=92 appropriation and=
subversion of traditional literary genres including autobiography, the=
dimestore detective novel, the science fiction adventure, the spy novel,=
and the Christmas tale. Also considered will be the use made by Burroughs=
of the advertising rhythms of the unsolicited testimonial as well as the=
format of the Vaudeville routine. =20
=09
"When someone asks me to what extent my work is autobiographical, I say,=
=91Every word is autobiographical, and every word is fiction=92" (Bockris=
1981, p. 28). This assertion by Burroughs is sometimes clearly evident in=
his work and such is the case in the title story, "Exterminator!" In=
"Exterminator" (the collection=92s introductory piece), Burroughs=
appropriates the autobiographical details of his work, in 1942, for the A.=
J. Cohen Exterminators he describes in the piece. These he blends with a=
further appropriation: the sparse prose style of the dimestore detective=
novel. The latter element lends to the piece a humorous, "hard-boiled pest=
control agent" sensibility:
A fat smiling Chinese rationed out the pyrethrum powder=97it was hard to get=
during the war=97and cautioned us to use flouride whenever possible. =
Personally I prefer a pyrethrum job to a flouride (p. 4).=20
Burroughs=92 intent, however, seems to go beyond that of merely offering the=
reader a humorous vignette based upon his work as an exterminator. Rather,=
he uses his experiences as a foundation on which is built a matrix of=
satire and metaphor that establishes the tone for the entire collection. =
For instance, the cockroach=97an image already heavily freighted with=
metaphorical implications in twentieth century literature=97is exploited by=
Burroughs in a way that contemporizes the imagery and carries the piece=
beyond the familiar and the autobiographical. Consider the sense of=
insidious bigotry conveyed in the following exchange:
"Is it roaches Mrs. Murphy?"
"It is that from those Jews downstairs."
"Or is it the hunkeys next door Mrs. Murphy?"
She shrugs "Sure and an Irish cockroach is as bad as another."
"You make a nice cup of tea Mrs. Murphy . . . ." (p. 5).
Mrs. Murphy goes on to report to the exterminator that the exterminators=
sent by the city only left a white powder (flouride) that "draws roaches=
the way whiskey will draw a priest" (p. 5). Here, again, the humor masks=
deeper metaphorical issues. The roaches, objects of loathing, are always=
attributed by Mrs. Murphy to the "other." They=92ve infested her apartment=
because of the Jews, hunkeys, city exterminators, etc. What, perhaps, this=
externalization and scapegoating truly represents is the deep-seated self=
-loathing of the bigot.=20
In "Exterminator!", however, Burroughs moves beyond this familiar=
metaphorical ground and weights the creature=97in light of its ability to=
develop a tolerance for the pesticides directed at it=97with connotations=
of drug addiction: "The roaches build up a tolerance and become addicted. =
They can be dangerous if the flouride is suddenly withdrawn" (p. 5). Thus,=
the addicted roach develops a paradoxical dependence on the services of the=
flouride-dispensing exterminator. The exterminator, like a ruthless=
pusher, holds in reserve his "hot shot," the pyrethrum powder, and can=
dispose of the addict whenever he sees fit. Thus, the cockroach=92s=
tolerance for poison becomes a contemporary metaphor for the complex,=
mutually parasitic relationship between addict and pusher. When the pusher=
withholds his product, the addict "becomes dangerous." The pusher raises=
his price. Eventually, the addict cannot afford the poison he craves and=
becomes a liability to the pusher who is always ready to deliver the final=
fix, the "hot shot."
As the exterminator relates his experiences with the A. J. Cohen company,=
the focus increasingly turns away from the insects and toward the people he=
meets and for whom he works. From his observations, it becomes clear that=
what the exterminator is really concerned with is the two-legged vermin=
scurrying near the brown cracks in the wall.=20
In "The Lemon Kid," Burroughs carries on with the appropriation of=
autobiographical material and introduces Audrey Carsons, the persona who=
appears from time to time throughout the collection as a point of contact;=
a tour guide for the reader making his way through the world of=
Exterminator! Unlike Hemingway's youthful Nick Adams, however, Audrey is=
in some ways flamboyant and in others vaporously intangible. Burroughs=
adapts Audrey as he sees fit, turning him into something of a chameleon=
through which he establishes the theme of the search for an elusive=
identity or self. Doubts and insecurities are the signposts in this search=
and Audrey's reaction to them involves the construction of defense=
mechanisms through writing. He pens a story titled "Autobiography of a=
Wolf," just as did an eight-year-old Billy Burroughs who suffered a similar=
dilemma in establishing an identity (Morgan 1988). Audrey also creates the=
character of Jerry, "The Lemon Kid," who serves a dual role of alter ego=
and homosexual lover. Audrey enlists Jerry, through his writing, as a=
means by which to strike back at a society that has made him to feel like=
"a sheep-killing dog" (p. 10). In a wildly humorous succession of events,=
we see Jerry earn his nickname, avenging Audrey against his tormentors=
(including an orchestra playing at a George Wallace rally) by sucking on a=
lemon. The effect is withering and the orchestra crumbles in "a crescendo=
of sour notes from sax and horns" (p. 11). Though farcical, Burroughs is=
using these characters to point up the elements of society that bother him:=
the Wallace segregationists, gay bashers, flag wavers, bible beaters, and=
CIA agents (to name a few). He establishes his presence in the collection=
through the fictional character of Audrey who, in turn, creates a character=
to avenge his tormentors. The lines between literature and life begin to=
blur lending an eerie quality of warning to the line: "When the Kid puts=
the lemon on you you are through in show biz" (p. 12).
Thus, in the opening stories "Exterminator!" and "The Lemon Kid," Burroughs=
not only mines autobiographical material, but reshapes, subverts, and=
explodes it in order to establish the themes and the narrative voice that=
will dominate the collection. These stories establish the pattern of=
appropriation remarked on earlier; a pattern that continues with the story=
"Astronaut=92s Return."
As the title suggests, "Astronaut's Return" is characterized by Burroughs=
=92 appropriation of the science fiction genre. Rather than concentrating=
on the familiar aspects of outer space and interplanetary travel, however,=
Burroughs turns the genre on end and portrays the astronaut exploring his=
inner space; probing his conscious which, presumably, has been altered by=
virtue of his extraterrestrial travel. =20
The introspection of the astronaut continues the theme of the search for=
self introduced in "The Lemon Kid." This theme is woven into a personal=
anthropology in which the astronaut postulates a virus passed down through=
the descendants of "the cave-dwelling albinos . . . the present inhabitants=
of America and western Europe" (p. 23). The astronaut muses that this=
virus is "what Freud calls the unconscious" and that it manifests its=
symptoms in a destructive inability to mind one=92s own business: "They=
had no business of their own to mind because they didn=92t belong to=
themselves anymore" (p. 24). The story ends with a question that=
reiterates this notion of estrangement from self: "Do you begin to see=
there is no face in the tarnished mirror?" (p. 27). This question can be=
read, it seems, not only as a rhetorical question posed by the astronaut,=
but also as a revelation about the narrative voice. As the collection=
unfolds, this question and the image of the absent face reoccur and the=
notion conveyed is that of a narrator searching=97in these disparate,=
fragmented stories riddled with dead ends and false starts=97for the voice=
that will allow him to tell his story. Thus, the postmodern aesthetic of=
narrator-as-subject is introduced. From this perspective, the narrator=
assumes a major unifying role in the collection.
"My Face" picks up where "Astronaut=92s Return" leaves off, the=
astronaut/narrator again preoccupied with a search for self. He is=20
=20
. . . concerned with the possibility of taking over a young body I would=
wake up stretch and look in the mirror the lookout different enough of=
other thoughts and feelings left to make it a really new you . . . (p.=
28).
The theme, here, is expressed in a choppy prose style, devoid of=
punctuation, into which the narrator falls, from time to time, throughout=
the collection. This prose can be viewed as expressive of an insecure,=
fragmented identity; an identity unable to express itself in whole,=
complete, logical sentences. Tied to this sense of insecurity and=
fragmentation, as expressed in the above quote, is the element of=
self-loathing touched upon in "Exterminator!" Rather than project this=
self-loathing, as did Mrs. Murphy through her bigotry and intolerance for=
others, the narrator in this piece expresses a desire to become the other.=
"My Face" is replete with the imagery of the face, the lack of face, and=
of the mirrors introduced in "Astronaut=92s Return" and, as if in answer to=
the question posed at the end of that story, there is the following,=
equivocal reply: "I was looking at my face in the mirror my new face . . .=
. In fact, I would hesitate to say it was a face at all" (p. 30).
Conspiracies, intrigue, the "secret agent," the CIA operative=97all of=
these elements common to the spy novel make their way into the fabric of=
Exterminator! Where they appear, however, the intrigue is never defined=
or motivated. Rather, it is merely suggested through the clich=E9s of the=
genre. Further, one is never quite certain regarding the question of which=
characters play the role of hero and which the role of villain. Burroughs=
does not seem intent on using the genre to develop a character or his=
narrator or to portray an event in his appropriations of the spy novel=
genre. Rather, Burroughs appears to use them as devices for interjecting a=
mood of shadowy power plays unfolding behind the scenes out of which are=
composed the other stories in the collection.
In "End of the Line," Burroughs presents us with Agent W.E.9 who is=
involved in an incomprehensible scheme to end the harassment by "Arab=
subjects" that has driven his assistant and technician to the verge of=
collapse. In order to do so, he searches for a writer who "wrote Arabic,=
who also knew English, and would be capable of translating Mr. P=92s=
continuity into Arabic characters, and passing along through channels" (p.=
46). (Note the echo, here, of "The Lemon Kid" in which there is also the=
quest for a writer to avenge an unpleasant set of circumstances.) The=
narrator later mentions "a list of agents who had been murdered because=
they might learn to read and write Arabic . . ." and thereby conveys the=
notion that language is alive with a special power over which the agents of=
many flags are contending.
"Twighlight's Last Gleamings" again demonstrates Burroughs appropriation of=
the spy novel genre, this time undermining the usual gravity that=
characterizes this form. A group of conspirators including "a folksy=
meteorologist, an embittered homosexual, a Chinese camera man, and a Negro=
castrated in his cradle by rat bites" plot to blow up a train carrying=
nerve gas (p. 85). They are pursued by an FBI agent whose "investigations=
are handicapped by his belief that the conspiracy is political" (p. 86). =
Though ostensibly a farce, "Twighlight=92s last Gleamings" is built upon a=
foundation of biting satire pointed at the hypocritical, ugly side of=
America that would "turn the clock back to 1899 when a silver dollar bought=
a good meal or a good piece of ass" (p. 86).
The rhythms and form of advertising copy inform "The Discipline of DE," a=
piece that explains and extolls the technique of "Do Easy." The piece can,=
on the surface, be read as a pastiche. On closer reading, I believe, a=
self-referential quality is manifest by which Burroughs (or, perhaps more=
precisely, his narrative voice) offers insights and advice as to how to go=
about reading Exterminator! By the time the reader has arrived at "The=
Discipline of DE," he has been guided through a bewildering number of=
situations, plots, characters, and settings all offered up by a narrator=
seemingly unsure of his identity. For the reader who may be feeling lost=
at this stage of the collection, Burroughs appears to proffer the following=
advice:
Get back on course and do it again. How can you pilot a spacecraft if you=
can=92t find your way around your own apartment? It=92s just like retaking=
a movie shot until you get it right. And you will begin to feel yourself=
in a film moving with ease and speed (p. 60).
Burroughs seems to acknowledge, in this passage, the difficulty his writing=
presents for the reader accustomed to more familiar literary traditions. =
The advice, perhaps, is to relax and read the work again; keep reading it=
until the new becomes familiar. Perhaps, in this way, Burroughs hopes the=
work will have its effect on the reader=92s "entire being" as mentioned=
earlier.
In Writing for Vaudeville, Brett Page defines the Vaudeville sketch as:
a simple narrative or a character sketch . . . having little or no definite=
plot . . . depending on effective incidents for its appeal, rather than on=
the singleness of effect of a problem solved by character revelation and=
change (Page 1915, p. 150).
Earlier in his book, Page also discusses the elements of humor in the=
Vaudeville sketch=97incongruity, surprise, situation, "pure wit," and=
character=97that combine to form "the expression of the individuality of =
the person voicing [the laughable utterances]" (Page 1915, p. 71). I=
include these definitions because, unlike the genres of autobiography, the=
dimestore detective novel, the science fiction adventure, or the spy novel,=
the modern reader is unlikely to be familiar with characteristics common to=
the Vaudeville routine, a genre employed frequently by Burroughs in=
Exterminator! "The Perfect Servant," "Exterminator," "Twighlight's Last=
Gleamings," and "What Washington? What orders?" all contain passages=
informed by the Vaudeville routine. Burroughs often goes so far as to=
break his prose into dialogue lines and stage directions. Perhaps the best=
example in the collection of his appropriation of the Vaudeville sketch is=
the following passage from "Twighlight=92s Last Gleamings":
=09
Cut to C.I.A. man pacing up and down in his office. His name is Joe=
Rogers.=09
Rogers: "I had a dream I tell you. I saw the train go up and that gas=
sweeping up the Eastern seaboard."
His second in command Mr. Falk is inclined to be cynical and describes=
himself as "a white collar bum who works for that crazy American=
government."
Falk: "Are you going to tell the Chief about your dream, Joe?"
Rogers (picking up phone): "No but I=92m going to ask him for more=
agents."
Falk: "Gotta stay ahead of the Commies or everybody=92s kids will be=
learning Chinese."
Rogers: "If my hunch is correct there may not be any kids left to learn=
anything" (p. 88).
The routine ends with the reappearance of Audrey Carsons in the role of the=
script writer. "You can put your clothes on now," he instructs Rogers and=
Falk, " . . . And now let=92s see how fast you can run" (p. 89). =20
The lack of regard for plot as outlined by Brett Page is clearly evident in=
this passage. Rather, Burroughs moves the piece along with the ironic=
dialogue between Rogers and Falk, both of whom remain fairly undeveloped as=
characters. The "payoff," in which Audrey pops up out of nowhere as the=
"script writer" who lets his actors know they may now dress themselves,=
employs the elements of humor described by Page: there is incongruity in=
the request by Rogers for more agents because he dreamt of a nerve gas=
attack; there is surprise in the unexpected appearance of Audrey (which=
can also be interpreted as incongruity); there is the play in the situation=
between incongruity and surprise, i.e., Audrey=92s request that Rogers and=
Falk get dressed; there is "pure wit" (defined by Page as wit detachable=
from its context) in Falk=92s self-characterization; and there is character=
in Audrey=92s desire to see how fast they can run (while, presumably, he=
reaches for a sidearm).
Thus, a case can be made that Burroughs has lifted the genre of the=
Vaudeville routine and incorporated it into his collection. As with his=
other appropriations of genre, however, he transmogrifies the Vaudeville=
routine into something beyond the light entertainment it=92s intended to=
be. First, he uses the genre, in the above passage, to create the mood of=
conspiracy and intrigue discussed earlier. Second, Burroughs writes for=
his characters a dialogue of pointed satire aimed at the American=
preoccupation with the "red menace." Third, in the passages that follow=
and which continue in the Vaudeville vein, there is a descent into graphic=
and explosive violence on a vast scale culminating in "an aerial view of=
dead cities" (p. 92). In short, Burroughs transforms the light, familiar,=
comfortable entertainment of the Vaudeville routine into a bloody depiction=
of the kind of ultra-violence from which (to complete the circle) people=
escape into distractions such as the Vaudeville routine or its modern=
equivalent: the television sit-com.
Burroughs leaves, it seems, no genre untouched in Exterminator! In "The=
=91Priest=92 They Called Him," he even goes so far as to appropriate the=
Christmas tale. Again, Burroughs not only lifts the genre, but subverts=
and transforms it. In this case, the reader is presented with a Christmas=
story bereft of the usual trappings of Christmas trees and holiday feasts,=
of Santa Claus and Scrooge. Rather, Burroughs gives us an old junkie, a=
young junkie, and a suitcase containing two dismembered legs=97hardly=
images of holiday cheer. Burroughs manages, however, to mold these=
elements into a story that engenders sympathy for his characters, calls=
into question commonly held notions of the "pernicious drug addict" as well=
as the nature of saintliness, and points up the hollowness of Christmas in=
the late twentieth century. The twist, here, is that the old junkie, "The=
Priest," makes a gift of last "quarter g," his long-overdue fix, to the=
young man in the next apartment who became an addict, we learn, to fend off=
the unendurable pain in legs that were crippled some time ago in an=
accident. The Priest realizes the boy is going through withdrawal: "The=
Priest stood there feeling the boy groan" (p. 159). He understands the=
boy=92s suffering and, making the penultimate gesture for a junkie, offers=
up his "quarter g" (bought with money obtained by hawking the suitcase=
containing the dismembered legs) to ease the boy=92s suffering. In the=
end:
=20
. . . . He went back to his room and sat down on the bed. Then it hit him=
like heavy silent snow, all the grey junk yesterdays. He sat there and=
received the immaculate fix and since he was himself a priest there was no=
need to call one.=20
Of all the stories in the collection, this one comes closest to the Poe=
ideal of the well wrought tale. All the elements in the story conspire to=
bestow upon The Priest a quality of saintliness that cuts against accepted=
attitudes toward the drug addict. The effect is one common to many=
Christmas tales: we are reminded of the call for "peace on earth, good=
will toward men," as well as of the beauty and joy of giving. The=
Burroughsian subversion, however, also comes to bear in the stories overall=
effect as the reader, caught up in the sentiment of The Priest=92s=
sacrifice, remembers: Hey! I=92m supposed to loath these characters. The=
reader=92s sense of moral judgement is thrown open to questioning and=
introspection.
From the foregoing examinations, it is clear that William Burroughs=92=
fiction is a mixed bag of material, much of which=97as he intimates in the=
passage from Les Voleurs =97is lifted from history, popular culture, and=
other literary works. This paper has examined merely one aspect of this=
penchant of Burroughs=92 for theft=97his appropriation of disparate=
genres=97because it is in his transmogrification of these genres that=
Burroughs=92 themes and world view appear to emerge in Exterminator! =
Other strategies may also have proven useful. For instance, an=
examination of instances of repetition may have provided insight into=
Burroughs work. In reading Exterminator!, one is struck with the=
recurrence of the number 23, of place names like St. Louis and Ladue Road,=
and "the room with rose colored wallpaper." It also may have proven useful=
to examine the many instances in which "real life" characters=97Jean Genet,=
George Wallace, Arthur Flegenheimer (aka the infamous gangster "Dutch=
Schultz"), and F. Scott Fitzgerald, to name a few, appear in the text in=
an effort to determine their bearing on the collection. Finally, it would=
have been interesting to examine the instances where Burroughs blatantly=
extracts passages from other of his works as well as from the works of=
other writers. The story "Short Trip Home," for instance, opens with a=
direct quote from the opening passage of F. Scott Fitzgerald=92s story "A=
Short Trip Home." Plumbing these lifted passages in light of their=
placement in the text may also have proven useful in getting below the=
fractured surface of Burroughs=92 prose. I suggest these strategies in=
order to stress that a non-linear, "multi-level" work such as Exterminator!=
demands such vertical reading(s). This paper has been one such attempt=
at vertical reading and, I believe, has pointed out some of the unifying=
elements of theme and voice in Exterminator! But, perhaps, Burroughs=
himself might argue that searching out unity or theme or voice in the=
fiction of this collection is as useless as attempting to conceive of it in=
traditional, linear terms. After all, the critical wherewithal remains to=
be developed for assessing a fiction designed to be received with one=92s=
"entire organic being."=20
References
Bockris, V. 1981. With William S. Burroughs: A Report from the Bunker. =
New York: Grove Press, Inc.
Burroughs, W. S. 1985. The Adding Machine: Selected Essays. New York: =
Seaver Books.
Morgan, T. 1988. Literary Outlaw: The Life and Times of William S.=
Burroughs. New York: Holt and Company.
Odier, D. 1974. The Job: Interviews with William S. Burroughs. New=
York: Grove Press, Inc.
Page, B. Writing for Vaudeville. Springfield, MA: The Home=
Correspondence School.
At 07:57 PM 1/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I consider it very beat to just sit by my window, reading my books and
>smoking my cigarettes. There's more than one way to be beat, you know but
>I know what Mary means about doing too much reading and not enough doing,
>but sometimes, all you can do is read...
> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Mary
>Maconnell wrote:
>
>> So aside from a party on Saturday night which I don't remember I ended up
>> finishing "Junky" and reading the whole of Carolyn Cassady's book, "Heart
>> Beat: My Life With Jack and Neal." I really really really loved Junky=
and
>> totally got into it and since I had previously tried to read "The Wild
>> Boys" and couldn't get into it I felt Burroughs was re-established as
>> a writer good and true in my eyes. Carolyn's book was revealing to me
>> (as I didn't know she and Jack had an affair but I'm not surprised) and
>> was wondering what anyone else thought about it.
>>
>> So right now I'm reading "Jack's Book" (can't remember the author's name)
>> and "Tristessa" by Jack and totally digging this groove but can't help
>> but wonder if I'm doing too much reading and not enough _doing_ lately --
>> you know what I mean?
>>
>> Mary
>>
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
>
<center>************************************************************
Edward Desautels
7 Hamilton Road
Somerville, MA 02144
edesaute@bbnplanet.com
http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
<smaller>"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20
I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
Jacques Rigaut
</smaller>************************************************************</cent=
er>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:08:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: another kerouac dream, marie
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This reminds me of a dream I had of Ginsberg where my wife and I were
supposed to meet him in the basement of a fire station (why, I have no
idea) and when we sit down to talk to him he stands up and runs off.
We end up in some sort of Keystone Kops chase with him around the
streets of NYC.
Why are the beats "eluding" us in our dreams?
love and lilies,
matt
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: another kerouac dream, marie
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 1/27/98 1:20 PM
had a dream lst night where i stumbled upon
a kerouac sale in some nameless
bookstore, they had books on and by him i've
never seen or heard of
so i start to pick out titles
some guy is actually helping me
for some reason
throwing me books
then as things got a little crazy
i noticed my notebooks, my own private
dirty notebooks and old letters
were on sale too, so now i'm trying to pick out
th beat-g and jack k. stuff i haven't read
before and at the same time trying to keep
the notebooks and letters to myself.
it's awful
then it changes
real sudden and i'm at a lecture on jack k.
and the prof. whos just released a book
with pictures of jack k. asks the class
what picture they would like him
to go on about in detail
what picture of jack k. that is
someone says: all of them
everybody laughs
then someone else is real specific
this and that picture on page so and so
ev'body finds it, the prof. finds it
nods says something like "great choice"
but i'm in trouble
i'm thumbing trough the book
not finding anyone even resembling jack k.
looking at the others
who's now getting into it
thumbing through the book again
but no luck
n i wake up
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:47:49 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: beat weekend
Content-Type: text/plain
>i loaned my copy of Junky to a Junky in hopes that he might be willing
>to fight the borders of illiteracy he faced with a subject that he
could
>relate to. it is my understanding that he did not read it and left it
>in a crackhouse somewhere.
>
damn junkies..
-greg
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:01:40 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mary Maconnell <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Where's the beef? (was: Re: beat weekend)
Comments: cc: edesaute@bbnplanet.com
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Hey, Ed.
What I tried to get across (but obviously failed miserably) was that I had
not read Burroughs before and even though I couldn't get into The Wild Boys
doesn't mean that it's not a good book -- I personally needed something a
bit more accessible to let me into that Burroughs frame of mind. Is there
anything wrong with that? :)
Also, even though I love to read and would probably die if I couldn't, I
just felt that I hadn't been doing enough lately and reading to me is
experiencing the world through someone else's vision (again, I don't think
there's anything wrong with that either so long as that's not all a person
does). The comment I made of not doing enough lately was made more
offhandedly and I did really want to discuss the books.
Aaaaah, literature.
Mary
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:45:16 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: finding the pony
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ok i think i need to make some coherence out of this, as i sent it to
y'all, i've broken the stream of consciousness into two separate items
(can't even begin to think of it as poetry, but it is an interesting
problem.
#1
no words
no words
no soul
no heartbeat
within which i can feel the reality
whose reality?
i am still lost in the middle of america
metaphorically speaking
i'm still on that train
crossing desolate plains
outside my window is desolate new england
groaning under winter.
no words
no wish to seek out memory to help search
memory flawed and out of time
don't send me a quick memory trick
or drug
memory present memory past
i wish to hold them fast
unremembered and out of time
we are born (in my case, into a case, incubator)
alone
alone alone alone
and we die alone
alone
alone
i die each day a thousand deaths
in the gaps between no words
and and the birth pangs of words wishing to be born.
#2
ode to seraphins and toilets
my toilet is being unplugged
i will treasure its unplugging
and sarah, who weilds the plunger
while i sit, alone in the dark
while my shit goes down the pipe
while i sit,
shit pouring out of me
leaving me alone
and stuck in the moment.
sarah, seraphin of plunger,
i give thanks to you and your love
but something is broken
it is not the toilet
it's me
and not even the seraphin sarah can fix me
i sit,
broken
alone in the dark
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:11:51 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: finding the pony
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ok i think i need to make some coherence out of this, as i sent it to
y'all, i've broken the stream of consciousness into two separate
items (can't even begin to think of it as poetry, but it is an
interesting problem.
the orignal post:
Marie Countryman wrote:
no words, no soul no hearbeat within in whidh i can feel the
reality-
what is reality? am still lost in the middle of america
-metaphoric more
than real, as i am in the midst of not of west but new
england....by
which return is by train is desolate plains with distant
mountains in
the backgrorund... (aware of typos, just dooj't care)
no words
no wish to seek out memory
memory is flawed beyond the memory of past and long term
past..
no memory
or words to prompt memory
lost soul
don't send a quick memory trick
or drug
alone alone alone alone
we are born (in my case to an incubator) alone
and notwishstanding bardos,
still believe we die alone
alone
alone
alone
my toiiet has just been unnplugged.
i will treeasuure it' s unplllugging
sarah who came with plunnger
alone
in the dark
with shit pouurijg out of the hole
of the toilet
no shit pours from me, leaving me stuck in the moment-
sarah, serephin of plunger, i give thanks to you..
something is broken
broken
it is not the toilet
it is me
and no sarah with pllunger can save mme
goodnighmc
and what came from it:
#1
no words
no words
no soul
no heartbeat
within which i can feel the reality
whose reality?
i am still lost in the middle of america
metaphorically speaking
i'm still on that train
crossing desolate plains
outside my window is desolate new england
groaning under winter.
no words
no wish to seek out memory to help search
memory flawed and out of time
don't send me a quick memory trick
or drug
memory present memory past
i wish to hold them fast
unremembered and out of time
we are born (in my case, into a case, incubator)
alone
alone alone alone
and we die alone
alone
alone
i die each day a thousand deaths
in the gaps between no words
and and the birth pangs of words wishing to be born.
#2
ode to seraphins and toilets
my toilet is being unplugged
i will treasure its unplugging
and sarah, who weilds the plunger
while i sit, alone in the dark
while my shit goes down the pipe
while i sit,
shit pouring out of me
leaving me alone
and stuck in the moment.
sarah, seraphin of plunger,
i give thanks to you and your love
but something is broken
it is not the toilet
it's me
and not even the seraphin sarah can fix me
i sit,
broken
alone in the dark
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 01:11:42 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Lust of the flesh, ignorant craving
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> David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> the source of the new testament writing here is quite different than
> that of Romans. Saul/Paul is just a beat dude who had an epiphany.
> The
> Gospel of John is a slightly different matter. The Book of John IMHO
> is
> by far the most interesting book in the colelction we call the Bible.
> It begins with the Logos and it seems that this connects with some of
> the questions concerning WSB's theories concerning Word as a Virus.
> What we get in translation as "The Word" is in the Greek "Logos" but
> this was a far more holistic term than mere logic and contained
> something similar to the many sides of beat and beatific in its
> difficulty to pin down in translation. It is perhaps the ultimate of
> the viral that the symbol of Logos has been translated to Word even
> capitalized.
Just one thing to note here, the passage that Timothy quoted is from the
first letter of John (1John), not the book of John, although both are
concerned with the Word, capitalized. It seems to me that "suffering is
caused by desire (or craving)" and the "lusts of the flesh" are very
similar. Both require a denying of the ego and worldly things in order
to lead a more spiritual life. Both imply that an experience of the
eternal is here now by seeking a more spiritual existence apart from the
physical one. To pursue an endulgement of the self, physical
gratifications, the craving of desires, puts one out-of-balance with the
spiritual plane.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:03:46 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lust of the flesh, ignorant craving
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>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>>
>> First off we have discussed the First Noble Truth:
>> (I really enjoyed everyone's posts on this subject)
>>
>> All Life is Suffering
>>
>> and compared with:
>>
>> Rom. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in
>> pain together until now.
>>
>> The second is:
>>
>> Suffering is caused by desire (or craving)
>>
>> How does this correspond with:
>>
>> 1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the
>> lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of
>> the world.
>>
>> How similar are ignorant craving of the second Noble truth and the lusts of
>> the flesh of the new testament?
>
>the source of the new testament writing here is quite different than
>that of Romans. Saul/Paul is just a beat dude who had an epiphany. The
>Gospel of John is a slightly different matter.
Remember that lust of the flesh is a common theme among many NT writers.
Paul, Peter and John all use the phrase and terminology.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:34:17 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Storm and Outburst,
Tempesta e Impeto Re: "Sturm und Drang" and Beat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980126140624.17715C-100000@uoft02.utoledo.e du>
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Sara wrote:
(...)
>I've always wanted to compare the Sturm und Drang works with the American
>Beat-generation works, because Beat could be considered a later, American
>"Sturm und Drang" period.
>
> Sara Feustle
--
Sara, the influence of letters on writing something different
(i.e. a novel) is a long (european) tradition/fiction. i think
it's worth to dig the italian background of JK's lit as the german.
in "On the Road" the protagonist is Sal Paradise. in the italian
translation (1959) the surname was italianized as Paradiso,
what beautiful homage! and Sal is the nickname of Salvatore
the true name of Sal Paradise is Salvatore Paradiso.
Salvatore is the name of Jesus and Paradiso was of course the
Paradise (heaven) connected with spiritual catholic heir.
strange matter, Ginny, the italian beat was preceded by music
singer and Carmen Villani is the first, the literary storm was
circa a ten years later. at Castelporziano in 1979 Allen
Ginsberg, William S. Burroughs, Gregory Corso was the lit side
of the movement but there's a good point to think that
the end of italian beat was at late 60s' and have is root during
the early 60s in now unknowed guys... those people in 1979 were
already disapparead behind the curtain... and Italy was broken
up with ultra leftism (Bologna 1977) really a Storm (i dunno if
someone remember the Red Brigades), and a revival of beat in 1979
at Castelporziano beach (near Rome). i was in Bologna in 1977 but not
at Castelporziano cuz of in the italian political scene the beat
was the drop in of the movement (countercultural). i think a beat
really influenced the italians was the "poeta addormentato"
named Jack Keroauc...
btw is there some the Beat-Ls who were at Festival della Poesia di
Castelporziano in the 1979 summer... i was living in the woods...
cari saluti a tutti voi gentili amici, e scusatemi lo sproloquio,
Rinaldo.
--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:55:40 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Last Time I committed Suicide: The Prologue
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David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
> "Some believe Neal Cassady to be the real genius behind the beat
> movement.
>
> ...<snip>...
> 2) The Legend of Cassady preceded his coming to New York in On the
> Road. I had asked on the List for any information about the legends
> attributed to Hal Chase (Harr????) by Jack Kerouac in the opening pages
> of On the Road with no reply. It seems that such grapevine attributions
> of the legend which preceded Neal would hardly be accurate but would
> likely be much more tales of Denver very similar to those depicted in
> the film.
....<snip>.....
> dbr
see the early pages of charters' kerouac letters for jack's letters to
hal chase. see early pages of cassady/ginsberg letters, as ever. see
early pages of kerouac's visions of cody for what might be real denver
stories, or kerouacian fictions. the tape, part 2, of visions of cody
is neal talking about his teen years in denver. his letters in the first
third including the joan letter tell of these times. these represent
pretty accurately what neal was up to during the war years
hal chase and neal met in the denver library in the summer of 45. hal
was older than neal and had been in the service before going to columbia
and rooming with allen g before meeting kerouac. he saw neal's reform
school letters to justin briarly and went out of his way to introduce
kerouac and cassady.
much new work about neal in denver will be released soon....
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:20:34 EST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Tempesta e Impeto, god and Golden Eternity
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In a message dated 27-Jan-98 10:44:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rinaldo@GPNET.IT writes:
<< and Italy was broken
up with ultra leftism (Bologna 1977) really a Storm (i dunno if
someone remember the Red Brigades), and a revival of beat in 1979
at Castelporziano beach (near Rome). i was in Bologna in 1977 but not
at Castelporziano cuz of in the italian political scene the beat
was the drop in of the movement (countercultural). i think a beat
really influenced the italians was the "poeta addormentato"
named Jack Keroauc... >>
Rinaldo,
Se noi tutti non fossimo la Dorata Eternita non saremmo qui. Poiche siamo qui
non possiamo non essere puri. Dire all'uomo di essere puro a causa di un
angelo punitore che puisce i cattivi e un angelo remuneratore che ricompensa i
buoni sarebbe come dire all'acqua "Sii bagnata." Cio nonstnte, tutte le cose
dipendono dalla realta suprema, che e gia fissata nel reistro del destino
guadagnato col Karma.
In English:
Stare deep into the world before you as if it were the void: innumerable holy
ghosts, buddhies, and savior gods there hide, smiling. All the atoms emitting
light inside wavehood, there is no personal separation of any of it. A
hummingbird can come into a house and a hawk will not: so rest and be assured.
While looking for the light, you may suddenly be devoured by the darkness and
find the true light.
Kerouac was Catholic, and embraced the saints and suffering of that. Kerouac
was Buddhist, and embraced the Tao and Zen of that, including the first law:
suffering.
I often wonder how it feels to live in a country upon whose soil war was
fought, whose people were so abused by their earthly rulers in the 20th
Century, and how all those conflicting events and religious upbringing
affected a young man like yourself.
My wars were simply witnessing the wars of others, civil rights and antiwar
protests, abuses of power that led to downfall of leaders and assassinations,
but no public hangings (and wasn't Mussolini hung upside-down, as he was so
completely despised? forgive my ignorance of history. i'd have to look it up).
How did you come to the Beats? How do you relate to Kerouac's Catholicism and
Buddhism? How does Italy "understand" the Beat Generation?
Sorry I don't speak Italian. I hope you can understand what I'm asking and
will forgive my arrogance in desiring your reply in English.
"Questa legge di verita non ha maggiore realta del mondo..."
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:23:13 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Tempesta e Impeto, damn it, a correction
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Sorry, sorry, sorry, Rinaldo et al, I put the wrong translation under that
passage.
Il sona stupido!
If we were not all the golden eternity we wouldnt be here. Because we are here
we cant help being pure. To tell man to be pure on account of the punishing
angel that punishes the bad and the rewarding angel that rewards the good
would be like telling the water "Be Wet"-Never the less, all things depend on
supreme reality, which is already established as the record of Karma earned-
fate.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:31:26 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: maggie cassidy
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>i heard somewhere (can't remember now where) that kerouac went back to
>lowell for a visit when he was getting into his alcoholic phase, and
>that he went to visit 'maggie cassidy' (mary carney????) after not
>seeing her for over ten years, and that he was drunk when he went to
>visit her.
>
>can anyone out there provide more details? I"d be interested in how she
>reacted to a drunken jack after all those years...
this morning on the train i read this in _desolation angels_:
I wake up in the middle of the night and remember Maggie Cassidy
and how I might have married her and been old Finnegan to her Irish Lass
Plurabelle, how I might have got a cottage, a little ramshackle Irish rose
cottage among the reeds and old trees on the banks of the Concord and
woulda worked as a grim bejacketed gloved and bebaseballhatted brakeman in
the cold New England night, for her and her Irish ivory thighs, her and her
marshmellow lips, her and her brogue and "God's Green Earth" and her two
daughters - How I would have laid her across the bed at night all mine and
laborious sought her rose, her mine of a thing, that emerald dark and hero
thing I want - remember her silk thighs in tight jeans, the way she folded
back one thigh under her hands and sighed as we watched Television together
- in her mother's parlor that last haunted 1954 trip I took to October
Lowell - Ah, the rose vines, the river mud, the run of her, the eyes - A
woman for old Duluoz? Unbelievable by my stove in desolation midnight that
it should be true - Maggie Adventure -
KEN
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:59:07 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: maggie cassidy
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FROM MAGGIE CASSIDY:=0A"Oh shut up=97Oh Jacky come home have Christmases =
with me=97never mind all this=0Acharivary=97fancy fanfares for nothing=97=
I'll have a rosary in my hand at least=97to=0Aremind you=97Little snowfla=
kes'll fall on our pretty roof. Why do you want these=0AFrench windows? W=
hat are the towers of Manhattan to you that needs love in my=0Aarm every =
night from work=97CAn I make you happier with powder on mychest?.... I=0A=
shoulda never let you go far away from home=97" Rich lips brooded in my d=
eaf=0Aear....=0A"You shoulda never left home to come here I dont care abo=
ut anybody says about=0Asuccess and careers=97it wont do you no good=97Yo=
u can see it with your own=0Aeyes=97And lookit her with her fine and fanc=
y ways, I bet she's as balmy as the=0Aday is long and they have to spend =
thousands a dollars on bug doctors for=0Aher=97you can have em brother=97=
so long. =97Huh" she concluded, through her throat,=0Awhich throbbed, and=
I kissed her and wanted to devour her every ounce of her=0Amysterious fl=
esh every part hump rill hole heart that with my fingers I'd=0Anever even=
yet known, the hungry preciousness of her, the one never to be=0Arepeate=
d altar of her legs, belly, heart, dark hair, she unknowing of this,=0Aun=
blessed, graceless, dull-eyed beautiful.=0A=0A=0ASeems to me Kerouac want=
ed Maggie in a way he never wanted anyone else. But I=0Athink Maggie also=
represented a stability (boredom) he wasn't ready for then.=0AHe spent m=
any years trying to reconcile his artistic desire for freedom on his=0Ate=
rms with his deep need to be loved by a woman, the same woman, every day.=
=0A=0AFROM VISIONS OF GERARD=0AI curse and rant nowadays because I dont w=
ant to have to work to make a living=0Aand do childish work for other men=
(any lout can move a board from hither to=0Ayonder) but=92d rather sleep=
all day and stay up all night scrubbling these=0Avisions of the world=85=
=0AArguments that raged later between my father and myself about my refus=
al to go=0Ato work=97"I wanta write=97I=92m an artist"=97"Artist shmartis=
t, ya cant be supported=0Aall ya life=97"=0A=0A=0AThe irony is that he en=
ded up taking care of his mother after his father died,=0Anot that she to=
ok care of him. And I honestly believe the last time he=0Amarried, his wi=
fe was as close to his ideal of Maggie Cassidy as she could be=0A(since t=
hey were both middle-aged and his mother was an invalid). By all=0Aaccoun=
ts, Lowell-girl Stella didn't powder her chest, had no patience with=0AJa=
ck's New York friends, and made for him a loving, stable, protected home,=
=0Aeven to the extent of caring for Memere.=0A=0AKerouac could never have=
sustained the "real" Maggie Cassidy, but her female=0Asurrogate was his =
third and last wife, although I'll bet Stella never knew=0Athat.=0A=0AI t=
oo would love to know if Maggie Cassidy was Mary Carney, and if her=0Adau=
ghter was Kerouac's. I read somewhere that the daughter refused blood tes=
ts=0Abecause she didn't want to know if he WAS her father, didn't want an=
ything to=0Ado with him? This is a branch of Kerouac scholarship that I h=
aven't seen=0Aexplored with any productive results.=0A=0AMaggie (not Cass=
idy, in fact, not even Maggie, but Irene) D'Arma=0A
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:05:11 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: maggie cassidy
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Thanks, Ken, for this beautiful passage from Desolation Angels. A beautiful
rendering of a long womanless man in the complete isolation of mt. lookout,
remembering a dream of a woman. But let me offer a somewhat contrarian
reaction to this passage in contrast to the other Maggies'. Rereading the
passage brings me up against what I always run up against in Jack's women.
There is very little sense of reality here. Evocative romantic visionary bits,
but rather like an adolescent who has grown into a wonderful writer without
leaving behind his adolescent view of women. He remembers her Irishness, "silk
thighs," "marshmellow lips" and his dream of how perfect life would be if this
dream were his. . The writing is gorgeous, but if you extract the descriptive
phrases they are (with the exception of "that emerald dark and hero thing",
and "ah the run of her, the river mud, etc") the language of bubble gum rock.
Maggie, as a living, breathing person is not here at all.
I would contend that for Jack there never was a women who matched his mother,
the love of his life, as he says in Big Sur and elsewhere. The other women
with whom he is involved are either elevated beyond all reality or whores. In
much of his life Jack was a man/boy. This was tragedy in his life. His work
survives this failure to grow except by growing into alcoholic desperation.
But I don't find any very well realized women in Jacks work. And he generally
does better by far by the whores than he does by the angels. Of course Leslie
Fiedler used to argue that this was true of American novelists pretty much sui
generis.
>
> I wake up in the middle of the night and remember Maggie Cassidy
> and how I might have married her and been old Finnegan to her Irish Lass
> Plurabelle, how I might have got a cottage, a little ramshackle Irish rose
> cottage among the reeds and old trees on the banks of the Concord and
> woulda worked as a grim bejacketed gloved and bebaseballhatted brakeman in
> the cold New England night, for her and her Irish ivory thighs, her and her
> marshmellow lips, her and her brogue and "God's Green Earth" and her two
> daughters - How I would have laid her across the bed at night all mine and
> laborious sought her rose, her mine of a thing, that emerald dark and hero
> thing I want - remember her silk thighs in tight jeans, the way she folded
> back one thigh under her hands and sighed as we watched Television together
> - in her mother's parlor that last haunted 1954 trip I took to October
> Lowell - - A
> woman for old Duluoz? Unbelievable by my stove in desolation midnight that
> it should be true - Maggie Adventure -
> Ah, the rose vines, the river mud, the run of her, the eyes
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<HTML>
Thanks, Ken, for this beautiful passage from <U>Desolation Angels</U>.
A beautiful rendering of a long womanless man in the complete isolation
of mt. lookout, remembering a dream of a woman. But let me offer
a somewhat contrarian reaction to this passage in contrast to the other
Maggies'. Rereading the passage brings me up against what I always
run up against in Jack's women. There is very little sense of reality
here. Evocative romantic visionary bits, but rather like an adolescent
who has grown into a wonderful writer without leaving behind his adolescent
view of women. He remembers her Irishness, "silk thighs," "marshmellow
lips" and his dream of how perfect life would be if this dream were his.
. The writing is gorgeous, but if you extract the descriptive phrases
they are (with the exception of "that emerald dark and hero thing",
and "ah the run of her, the river mud, etc") the language of bubble
gum rock. Maggie, as a living, breathing person is not here at all.
<P>I would contend that for Jack there never was a women who matched his
mother, the love of his life, as he says in <U>Big Sur</U> and elsewhere.
The other women with whom he is involved are either elevated beyond all
reality or whores. In much of his life Jack was a man/boy.
This was tragedy in his life. His work survives this failure
to grow except by growing into alcoholic desperation. But I don't
find any very well realized women in Jacks work. And he generally
does better by far by the whores than he does by the angels. Of course
Leslie Fiedler used to argue that this was true of American novelists
pretty much <U>sui generis.</U>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> I wake
up in the middle of the night and remember Maggie Cassidy
<BR>and how I might have married her and been old Finnegan to her Irish
Lass
<BR>Plurabelle, how I might have got a cottage, a little ramshackle Irish
rose
<BR>cottage among the reeds and old trees on the banks of the Concord and
<BR>woulda worked as a grim bejacketed gloved and bebaseballhatted brakeman
in
<BR>the cold New England night, for her and her Irish ivory thighs, her
and her
<BR>marshmellow lips, her and her brogue and "God's Green Earth" and her
two
<BR>daughters - How I would have laid her across the bed at night all mine
and
<BR>laborious sought her rose, her mine of a thing, that emerald dark and
hero
<BR>thing I want - remember her silk thighs in tight jeans, the way she
folded
<BR>back one thigh under her hands and sighed as we watched Television
together
<BR>- in her mother's parlor that last haunted 1954 trip I took to October
<BR>Lowell - - A
<BR>woman for old Duluoz? Unbelievable by my stove in desolation
midnight that
<BR>it should be true - Maggie Adventure -</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Ah, the rose vines, the river mud, the run of her,
the eyes</BLOCKQUOTE>
</HTML>
--------------3ACADCEB3CEB33AFB3A45919--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:21:12 -0500
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From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: sturm und drang
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980127071925.28551A-100000@uoft02.utoledo.e du>
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What was the period when Sturm und Drang was published.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:33:50 EST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: maggie cassidy
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In a message dated 27-Jan-98 1:29:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenster@MI=
T.EDU=0Awrites:=0A=0A<< How I would have laid her across the bed at night=
all mine and=0A laborious sought her rose, her mine of a thing, that eme=
rald dark and hero=0A thing I want >>=0A=0AAnd to James (and thanks from =
me, too, Ken, for finding Maggie in Desolation=0AAngels) --=0A=0AI think =
you're mostly right about Kerouac's inability to maintain a woman, or=0Aw=
hatever it was. And though I've long thought of Kerouac as kind of weak a=
nd=0Aunattractive, his writing of erotica (like the passage above, and th=
e one I=0Asnipped in my last letter) certainly makes me feel all warm in =
the right=0Aplaces. He did have that virgin or whore sort of classificati=
on toward women,=0Aundoubtedly brought on my terminal catholicism, and I =
wonder if sex in=0Amarriage was ever "good" for him.=0A=0AWe've spent a l=
ot of time talking here about Kerouac's encounters with other=0Amen, whic=
h makes some sense to me based on libido and a sense of masturbation,=0Aa=
nd the "circle jerk-off" phenomenon I've heard so many male friends talk=
=0Aabout (which amazed me, since I've never even been invited to masturba=
te with=0Aone or more other women, but it almost seems a rite of passage =
for boys. But=0Athat's another topic, I'll bet, and mysterious to me, so =
I'll leave it for the=0Atime being to talk heterosexual love). Jack did h=
ave a lot of sex, it seems,=0Aand a lot of fantasies about sex, with wome=
n and at least once I know of, with=0Aa child (which doesn't make him a p=
edophile by any stretch of an imagination,=0Asince it came to him in a dr=
eam, and who doesn't dream against his will or=0Abetter judgment?)=0A=0AI=
think he was mostly driven by his alcoholism, and my experience with tha=
t=0A(as the owner of a bar) is that it is the surest way to become a bad =
lover,=0Anot to mention a stable husband or father or partner in any cont=
ext.=0A=0AThe common thing I find in all his behaviour (and I'm no expert=
on him or=0Aanyone) is that he couldn't "do" but he was a master at "say=
." And his=0Awriting, young or old, IMO, was always childlike, whether it=
concerned his=0Alibido or his religion, but not in the least immature. R=
ather, it was like he=0Awas captured, "forever young" forever restless, f=
orever filled with desire=0Athat he was able to write about to awaken us =
all. I guess he was unharnessed=0Aenergy, for lack of a better term. A ma=
rried Kerouac probably would have=0Awritten about politics or something, =
not "Praise a woman=92s legs, her golden=0Athighs only produce black nigh=
ts of death, face it=97Sin is sin and there=92s no=0Aerasing it=85"=0A=0A=
Maggie=0A
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:45:47 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: sturm und drang
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.19980127161757.09d71cf6@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
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>From about 1770 to 1790.
At 06:21 PM 1/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>What was the period when Sturm und Drang was published.
>
>Mike Rice
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:48:49 -0400
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: quote search
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>On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
>> Preston Whaley wrote:
>> >
>> > A week or so back someone posted the following quote by Burroughs: "All
>> > agents defect, and all resisters sellout." Does anyone know the source?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Preston
>>
>> i tried several forms of searches at Bigtable database with no luck.
>>
>> dbr
>>
>Should have used the concordance. It's on page 205 of whatever edition of
>Naked Lunch Luke used to compile the concordance. The link to the page on
>his site is:
>http://www.bigtable.com/library/naked_lunch/205.html
>
>Thanks again to Luke for putting up such a great resource.
>
>Neil
Thanks, Neil.
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:07:27 -0500
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From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: maggie cassidy
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I need to clear something I wrote earlier...kerouac was not well recieved by
Mary Carney in the 1960's, not Mr. Chaput. Part of the reason was Kerouac
acted like it was still in the 1930's when in fact Mary Carney had a husband
and it was the 1960's. Part of this was his idealism of her and also a
drunken spontaneous visit which did not go over well. Paul...
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:38:16 -0500
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From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein? (and Nietzsche)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980125091804.570990369A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
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On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> You know, I've often wondered why Nietzsche isn't mentioned more often
> in connection with WSB, or in WSB's own work. There seems to be a much
> more organic similarity with Nietzsche than with Wittgenstein. Not
> least because N also cited HiS's motto:
>
> When the Christian crusaders in the Orient encountered the
> invincible order of Assassins, that order of free spirits *par
> excellence*, whose lowest ranks followed a rule of obedience the
> like of which no order of monks ever attained, they obtained in
> some way or other a hint concerning that symbol and watchword
> reserved for the highest ranks alone as their *secretum*: "Nothing
> is true, everything is permitted."--Very well, *that* was *freedom*
> of spirit; in *that* way the faith in truth itself was *abrogated*.
> Has any European, any Christian free spirit ever strayed into this
> proposition and into its labyrinthine consequences? has one of them
> ever known the Minotaur of this cave *from experience*?--I doubt
> it.... (_On the Genealogy of Morals_ Third essay, section 24)
Although one would have a hard time considering Burroughs a "Christian
free spirit", he certainly strays into the proposition and its
labyrinthine consequences in _The Cities of the Red Night_, where each
city holds a different convolution of the proposition. Personally, I'm not
familiar with much Nietszche, so I can't really say all that much on
he and wsb (I've only read "Thus Spake Zarathustra", and that was many
moons ago...)
Back to Language:
Jeff wrote:
> When WSB attempts to cut the control lines by getting beyond words, he
> must, qua writer, still use words. Here again I think Nietzsche may be
> of more help, with his notion of "self-overcoming": "All great things
> bring about their own destruction through an act of self-overcoming"
> (Genealogy of Morals, 3rd essay #27)--in other words, the very forces
> that made a thing what it is are the very same forces that eventually
> bring about that thing's movement beyond itself. For Nietzsche, it is
> the *value* of truth, when its consequences are followed out to
> the end that throws into question truth itself, and thus leads to
> the realization that "Nothing is true...."
>
> So in WSB: the power and logic of language is brought to turn against
> itself. But with Witt., it's not even clear that one language-game can
> meaningfully talk about another language-game. The most you could ever
> say about this from a Wittgensteinian perspective is that WSB simply
> switched language-games, leaving all others untouched. No friction.
>
> So if we are to avoid both this situation, as
> well as the claim that WSB simply contradicts himself by *writing*
> about the end of language, we would need a different, more powerful
> interpretive framework: N's conception of self-overcoming, perhaps.
> So it appears to me that Nietzsche contains, perhaps, much more
> powerful resources for helping us to undertand WSB's work than
> Wittgenstein.
I'm not sure that a "different interpretive framework" is necessary.
Burroughs was not writing *about* the end of language, he was writing to
*bring about* the end of language. He recognized the impasse this brought
about (Skerl notes this, from correspondance with wsb), and succumbed to
it in his return to narrative in The Wild Boys. The cut-up trilogy stands
as a monument to one man's struggle with the Word virus, or in Lacan's
formulation, to break free of the prison house of language:
"[...]language and its structure exist prior to the moment at which each
subject at a certain point in his mental development makes his entry into
it[...] the speaking subject too, if he can appear to be the slave of
language is all the more so of a discourse in the universal moment in
which his place is already inscribed at birth, if only by virtue of his
proper name. Reference to the experience of the community, or to the
substance of this discourse settles nothing. For this experience assumes
its dimension in the tradition that this discourse itself establishes."
(Ecrits: A Selection, 248)
Burroughs' prison-break ultimately fails, although in systematically
disrupting the syntactic and authorial basis on which writing rests he
ruptured the tradition of discourse. The problem is that the rupture is
only temporary (time-bound), for the universal discourse absorbs the
singularity, and language rules again: in Burroughs' formulation the Word
forces us into our bodies, inscribes us in shit and Time, and there ain't
no escape lessen you figure out how to get into Space.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:23:37 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Herbert Huncke
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Right now, Im reading the Herbert Huncke Reader, which I got for Chanukah
and its very interesting to see how casually he refers to the more famous
members of the BG. He never uses AG's last name but refers to 'Allen'
quite often and its obvious who he is talking about. Also, the references
to 'Bill' or 'Old Bull Lee'. Its a really good book. What do you all
think?
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:38:31 +0300
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Beat-Bob (was Re: backbeat)
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> bob kaufman
>
> SLIGHT ALTERATIONS
>
i must admit even more than my usual ignorance about this intriguing
poet.
can anyone out there provide background/biographical insights and/or URL
locations to learn about this Beat-Bob?
thanks in advance,
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:09:25 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: BOB KAUFMAN
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no quick post can really explain this very complex man. i recommend
highly CRANIAL GUITAR which has a very well written, researched intro by
david henderson, edited by our very own gerald nicosia.
here's another to whet yr appetite:
WAITING
SOME WHERE THERE WAITS, WAITING
A BOOK IS WAITING, WAITING,
TO BE WRITTEN,
COLD COLD PAGES WAITING,
TO BE WRITTEN,
MAN SEEKS GOD,
IN A BOOK.
SOMEWHERE THERE WAITS, WAITING
A PICTURE WAITS, WAITING,
WAITING TO BE PAINTED
COLD COLD CANVAS.
WAITING TO BE PAINTED.
MAN SEEKS GOD IN A PICTURE.
SOMEWHERE THERE WAITS, WAITING
A WOMAN WAITING, WAITING,
TO BE LOVED, WAITING,
COLD COLD WOMAN,
WAITING TO BE LOVED,
MAN SEEKS GOD IN A WOMAN.
SOMEWHERE THERE WAITS, WAITING
A MAN IS WAITING, WAITING,
COLD COLD MAN, WAITING,
TO BE WANTED, WAITING.
MAN SEEKS GOD
IN MAN
SOMEWHERE THERE WAITS, WAITING
A BABY IS WAITING, WAITING.
WAITING , WAITING TO BE BORN,
COLD COLD BABY, WAITING,
TO BE BORN BLOOD OF EARTH,
WAITING TO BE.
MAN SEEKS GOD,
IN A BABY.
WIND, SEA,
SKY, STARS,
SURROUND
US
BOB KAUFMAN
ps to jo grant: all caps are kaufman's :)
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:12:23 -0400
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From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Sturm and Drang
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If this post does make not it through this time the third time destiny is
against it. Sorry it's late. But in addition to Kerouac;s sturm and drang
reference in OTR: "The only people for me are the mad ones . . . ," he
subtitled Dr. Sax, one of his best, Faust part III. The Part III
indicates supplimentation of that Sturm & Dranger Goethe' version. Maybe
this is an obvious pt., but no one has mentioned it.
Here's an 18th century Faustian desire to live hot like those burn, burn,
burning "roman candles. . . ."
Plunge into time's whirl that dazes my sense,
Into the torrent of events!
The reeling whirl I seek, the most painful excess,
Enamored hate quickening distress.
Cured from the craving to know all, my mind
Shall not henceforth be closed to any pain,
And what is portioned out to all mankind,
I shall enjoy deep in my self, contain
Within my spirit summit and abyss,
Pile on my breast their agony and bliss,
And thus let my own self grow into theirs, unfettered,
Till as they are, at lastI, too, am shattered -- from Faust: The Tragedy.
Interesting that he asks this of the only one who can grant it --
Mephistopheles.
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:03:39 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: sturm und drang
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980127184547.006a78a4@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 18.45 27/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>From about 1770 to 1790.
>
>At 06:21 PM 1/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>What was the period when Sturm und Drang was published.
>>
>>Mike Rice
>>
>
>
Excuse me Mike and Sara, but as a recall Ugo Foscolo
has as epigraph in his novel _Last letters of Jacopo Ortis_
Naturae clamat ab ipso
vox tumulo
from Th. GRAY Elegy written in a Country-Yard (1750)
Geme la natura
perfin nella tomba
The Nature groans even in the tomb
circa the goethe _Werther_ Foscolo refused to reply
to the Quarterly Review charded the novel as plagiarism.
Ugo is much english lit oriented than goethe, if jump
out any link between sturm un drang and beat generation
please have a respect for this exiled son of italy so unlucky
and died young in london in the early 1800s'...
saluti,
Rinaldo.
-------
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:41:05 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Tempesta e Impeto, god and Golden Eternity
In-Reply-To: <3b3f0d0a.34ce3384@aol.com>
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Maggie wrote:
(...)
>My wars were simply witnessing the wars of others, civil rights and antiwar
>protests, abuses of power that led to downfall of leaders and assassinations,
>but no public hangings (and wasn't Mussolini hung upside-down, as he was so
>completely despised? forgive my ignorance of history. i'd have to look it
up).
>
>How did you come to the Beats? How do you relate to Kerouac's Catholicism and
>Buddhism? How does Italy "understand" the Beat Generation?
>
>Sorry I don't speak Italian. I hope you can understand what I'm asking and
>will forgive my arrogance in desiring your reply in English.
>
>"Questa legge di verita non ha maggiore realta del mondo..."
>
>Maggie
>
Maggie, thanx for the gently words (italian! & english) i'm very
glad to have your thought 'bout the so called "italian beat",
what is really happened was 'bout no connection among italian beat
and buddhism...
the starting question maybe was the "sturm und strang" as movement (in
the meaning of people) looking for a new world (of course there's
no acceptance of assasination of bad men, and ezra pound was right
to call italians barbaric toward ben mussolini and clara petacci,
hanged, and pound was something like a friend to allen ginsberg)...
when in 1979 Ginsberg, Burroughs & beats were in italy at Castelporziano
was similar when Ginsberg in the chicago convention have to OM
the people stopping violence. but Italy in those times was very
politicized country, and the Poetry Festival was great but the
"italian beat" no more existed. the meeting was a failure and
Burroughs stated that the CIA was involved (sabotage) when the
american beats were besieged by a bunch of italian poets on the stand.
the stand falled down & everything collapsed. summer 1979 in Rome,
i dunno why Ginsberg and Burroughs dont tell about this meeting
in their journals...
me Rinaldo im 47 old near to turn 48, im' persuade that my life was
sucked and exploited, this sad news whirl in my mind and
heart. Jack Kerouac was appreciated in the 60s' and his
look was "il poeta addormentato" meaning that the man is
sleeping together with his poetry. Maggie u are right:
2
The awakened Buddha to show the way, the
chosen Messiah to die in the degradation (...)--jack kerouac
the scripture
of the golden
eternity
maybe Jack chose my idea
the Messiah and is that
charging himself catholi
to die really in c never
animate form became other than a catholic (gesuitic?)
maybe this'nt my idea but a bukowski
meaning of life (am i wrong?)
another catholic beat...
Jack Kerouac mori' improvvisamente
nel 1969 all'eta' di 47 anni.
Jack Kerouac died suddenly
in 1969 at 47.
in italy there's little chance for buddhism and the kerouac
literature is so appreciated because of his catholic roots
he was loved by people who falled in the shadows in the turn
of the 60. Jack Kerouac was in italy to meet the pope and a
to lead the way to bob dylan syndrome.
perhaps im I am empty, I am non-existent
very too s
ad aged an So be sure
s tired an
d damned b jk
ut i notic
ed the gre
en weed
spero di non avervi annoiato con queste mie righe sto solo
cercando di capire come il passato e' visto dal presente e
che davvero ALL IS WELL...
un caro saluto a tutti da
Rinaldo.
-------
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:20:51 EST
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From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Tempesta e Impeto, god and Golden Eternity
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In a message dated 28-Jan-98 11:14:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rinaldo@GPNET.IT writes:
<<
spero di non avervi annoiato con queste mie righe sto solo
cercando di capire come il passato e' visto dal presente e
che davvero ALL IS WELL...
>>
E tutto a posto, la forma e vuoto e il vuoto e forma, e noi siamo qui per
sempre, in questa o quella forma, che e vuota. E totto a posto, noi non siamo
qui, non siamo la e in nessun altro luogo. E tutto a post, i gatti dormono.
"Everything's alright, form is emptiness and emptiness is form, and we're here
forever, in one form or another, which is empty. Everything's alright, we're
not here, there, or anywhere. Everything's alright, cats sleep."
grazzi, rinaldo
maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:14:55 +0300
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Journal Night Thoughts
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Diane Carter wrote:
>
> > David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> >
> > This second poem in Planet News is quite an abrupt shift from "Who will
> > take over the Universe?" It is political only in the sense that the
> > personal is the political. It is intraspection on intraspection
> > entwisted cyclonically like a complete unknown visionary known to all
> > spaketh these words.
>
> There's so much in this poem that it hard to find a beginning topic for
> discussion. Agreed that the poem moves to the personal and the
> visionary, a cosmic universe as opposed to a political one Things that
> stand out to me are: that it begins and ends in bed--I would almost say
> that in the love of the human body at the end, the poet finds the
> redemption that eludes him in the visions in the poem.
It seems that while the first poem provides an extreme portrait of the
poet's exterior universe, the second presents an intense photograph of
the poet's interior universe. The images of body of skin and flesh
being the exterior border of the interior universe.
just 1 cent,
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:22:54 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
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On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> > When WSB attempts to cut the control lines by getting beyond words, he
> > must, qua writer, still use words.
=== Which is why I am extremely disappointed that WSB never took the
next step into totally opaque communication, a la Joyce's "Finnegan's
Wake".
> Burroughs was not writing *about* the end of language, he was writing to
> *bring about* the end of language. He recognized the impasse this brought
> about (Skerl notes this, from correspondance with wsb), and succumbed to
> it in his return to narrative in The Wild Boys.
=== But the Wild Boys have their own language; so Burroughs is at least
writing about *sidestepping* conventional language.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland
somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:31:24 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Baltimore bookstores
In-Reply-To: <v01540b00b0eb8e8463ee@[146.201.2.29]> from "Preston Whaley" at
Jan 21, 98 07:41:57 am
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Hi.
I'm going to Baltimore in June,and am hoping to
find some good new and used bookstores.
Are there any Beat Baltimorians out there who
could help?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:21:45 -0600
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From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: more beats on jeopardy!
MIME-version: 1.0
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another beat question on jeopardy! today....
Category: "Author's odd jobs"...."He was a bartender,
private detective, and exterminator before he wrote Naked Lunch"
they got it right, fortunately
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:08:45 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "POMES, PENNY EACH." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Marek Hlasko
Has anyone read the Polish writer, Marek Hlasko? He's great, best known for his
novel, KILLING THE SECOND DOG (1965). He has been called a "Polish Beat writer"
for what that may be worth, I think the Beat reputation might stem from his
death; an overdoes of pills and booze. He also wrote THE EIGHTH DAY OF THE
WEEK. His themes do run along Beat lines, disenchanted youth, rebellion, etc.
I simply find him a fine writer and worth looking up. KILLING THE 2nd DOG is
available through Cane Hill Press.
Comments on this guy? BTW, he died the same year as Kerouac, 1969.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:16:36 PST
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From: Kimberly Yang <kjyang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: critical essays
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Hi Everyone.
I'm writing an essay about Kerouac and his novels. Do anyone know where
I can find critical essays about his work? Thanks a lot!
Kim
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:43:52 EST
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From: Surubu1 <Surubu1@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Looking for info. on Jack Kerouac School for Disenchanted Poetics
@ Naropa
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Hello.
I am looking at graduate schools and am very interested in finding out more
about the creative writing department at Naropa in Boulder, CO. I have some
information about it, but would like to know some inside scoop from anyone who
has attended, visited, etc. etc.
Thanks for any info..
Sundee Bumgarner
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:01:26 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: more beats on jeopardy!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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wsb.
hope i won the the $$$$
mc
Jeff Taylor wrote:
> another beat question on jeopardy! today....
> Category: "Author's odd jobs"...."He was a bartender,
> private detective, and exterminator before he wrote Naked Lunch"
> they got it right, fortunately
>
> *******
> Jeff Taylor
> taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
> *******
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:02:20 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: more beats on jeopardy!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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whoops. misread.
mc
Jeff Taylor wrote:
> another beat question on jeopardy! today....
> Category: "Author's odd jobs"...."He was a bartender,
> private detective, and exterminator before he wrote Naked Lunch"
> they got it right, fortunately
>
> *******
> Jeff Taylor
> taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
> *******
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:20:15 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Community Network Assoc.
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
In-Reply-To: <34CF774A.1375@iclub.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
> === Which is why I am extremely disappointed that WSB never took the
> next step into totally opaque communication, a la Joyce's "Finnegan's
> Wake".
do you reall ythink that FW is "opaque" or is actually an extremely
tightly written narrative (try reading it aloud - esp the "shem the
penman" and "anna livia" chapters and suddenly the jokes and accents that
jj used are readily apparent (in my opinion) - this is word play at its
best - multilingual puns, phonetic pronunciation of a dialect and accent
and scholarly deconstruction of language and communication - all placed
with a typically "small" (eg: ulysses" takes place all within one day one
city) narrative.
yrs
derek (a small joyce fan ... )
ps: does anyone know the listserv addresses for the joyce listserv as
well as the Finnegans wake listserv? sure would like the addresses...
thanks
d
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:58:33 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: uh ahem
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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notice, unbeat request. i have returned to university after oh, twenty
years, one of my courses is a creative writing course. i haven't
every written short stories before and would like any critique and
assistance any one is willing to offer. I have two pages of a set up,
due in next Monday. So if any one is willing, let me know by back
channel and i will send you the peice. It is a set of a long story that
i have been thinking about. Oh is i could just think of a cool beat
angle to make this legitamate post.
so pardon
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:13:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: critical essays
In-Reply-To: <19980129011636.3829.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Kimberly-
The only one Im familiar with is something called "Kerouac's Crooked
Road", written by Tim Hunt, I believe.
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Kimberly Yang wrote:
> Hi Everyone.
>
> I'm writing an essay about Kerouac and his novels. Do anyone know where
> I can find critical essays about his work? Thanks a lot!
>
> Kim
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:27:15 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: uh ahem
In-Reply-To: <34CFFE69.14A0@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
P,
First thing in the a.m. I'll see if I can locate a slim little pamphlet
Meridel LeSueur put together many years ago. She used one of her short
stories. Took it apaert and explained exactly what she was doing.
Described, in detail, the parts of the story. The pamphlet was used by
workers, out-of-workers, schools, universities, etc. as a teaching tool.
I'll bet Charlie Plymell knows about it.
West End Press usually has copies but I think they are back orderedd. If I
can find my copuy I'll make you a copy and you can send John Crawfordf at
Wst End a buck.
I envy you back in school and wait for my class to start in February.
I can barely see the screen. Tired and a little blasted after a big dinner
and more work than I like.
Later.
j grant
>notice, unbeat request. i have returned to university after oh, twenty
>years, one of my courses is a creative writing course. i haven't
>every written short stories before and would like any critique and
>assistance any one is willing to offer. I have two pages of a set up,
>due in next Monday. So if any one is willing, let me know by back
>channel and i will send you the peice. It is a set of a long story that
>i have been thinking about. Oh is i could just think of a cool beat
>angle to make this legitamate post.
>so pardon
>patricia
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:35:00 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: uh ahem
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
jo grant wrote:
> Jo thanks. I appreciate hearing from you. I wish i had keep some strange
pamplet i had once about dialogue. I will also go to my trusty library ( did i
ever tell you that my husband is cataloguer at the ku library) I am very
nervous about enroling , i flunked out 20 years ago due to great bridge, dope
and sex, also at that time poor acedemic skills. so here i am a young 49 year
old sophmore.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:37:14 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat-Bob (was Re: backbeat)
In-Reply-To: <34CEE077.48F4@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>i must admit even more than my usual ignorance about this intriguing
>poet.
>can anyone out there provide background/biographical insights and/or URL
>locations to learn about this Beat-Bob?
>
>thanks in advance,
>dbr
David,
Couple of books with very little comment at:
http://www.bookzen.com/kkk.html
I should add mare material, but you know how that goes. Nicosia edited
Cranial Guitar. Was praised high and low for his work getting the material
together. I'll check with him about the possibilkity of E-mailing whatever
he has.
Coffee House Press sent me a pre pub copy. A great book. Excellent reviews
across the board.
Argh. Have to turn in.
Peace,
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:45:42 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Town & the City (was Re: critical essays)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Kimberly Yang wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone.
>
> I'm writing an essay about Kerouac and his novels. Do anyone know where
> I can find critical essays about his work? Thanks a lot!
>
> Kim
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
i was very interested (but must admit to not following through) with the
citations listed recently about Kerouac and Catholicism by Bill Gargan.
perhaps one area for threads is to share bibliographical information of
critical treatments. certainly some on the list are not interested in
the critical scholarship side of the beat generation - but it seems a
valid avenue for development for those on the list with the more
scholarly angle.
and the collective power of the listmembers in creating bibliographical
listings is probably pretty impressive.
one of my Xmas gifts was Kerouac's first novel (that i've not yet
cracked) The Town and the City. as a test of my theories above, what
critical reviews, book reviews, references in other writings and in
various biographies can people share.
quotations are not necessary - just normal bibliographical information
and in information extracted from longer works page numbers would be
nice.
thanks in advance,
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:39:23 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: uh ahem
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> jo grant wrote:
> > Jo thanks. I appreciate hearing from you. I wish i had keep some strange
> pamplet i had once about dialogue. I will also go to my trusty library ( did
i
> ever tell you that my husband is cataloguer at the ku library) I am very
> nervous about enroling , i flunked out 20 years ago due to great bridge, dope
> and sex, also at that time poor acedemic skills. so here i am a young 49 year
> old sophmore.
> patricia
most of my best students were in their forties.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:43:17 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Beat-Bob (was Re: backbeat)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
jo grant wrote:
>
> >i must admit even more than my usual ignorance about this intriguing
> >poet.
> >can anyone out there provide background/biographical insights and/or URL
> >locations to learn about this Beat-Bob?
> >
> >thanks in advance,
> >dbr
>
> David,
>
> Couple of books with very little comment at:
> http://www.bookzen.com/kkk.html
>
> I should add mare material, but you know how that goes. Nicosia edited
> Cranial Guitar. Was praised high and low for his work getting the material
> together. I'll check with him about the possibilkity of E-mailing whatever
> he has.
>
> Coffee House Press sent me a pre pub copy. A great book. Excellent reviews
> across the board.
>
> Argh. Have to turn in.
>
> Peace,
>
> j grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
don't put too much effort into it. i really have a lot on my plate
right now. i need to try and focus in even more on my writing right now
i think.
i'm due for another Zyprexa Blues tomorrow night. I wonder how it will
come out?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:22:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
I would question the assertion regarding the "...totally opaque communication, a
la Joyce's "Finnegan's Wake." Hence Burroughs' admitted resignation in the face
of a failed life-long attempt to break the lines of association on which the
word-virus feeds. Communication based on language will never be "totally
opaque," even when intensely stylized or personalized. As Robbe-Grillet
observed in _For a New Novel_, form _is_ content.
Ed
At 07:22 PM 1/28/98 +0100, you wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>>
>> > When WSB attempts to cut the control lines by getting beyond words, he
>> > must, qua writer, still use words.
>
>=== Which is why I am extremely disappointed that WSB never took the
>next step into totally opaque communication, a la Joyce's "Finnegan's
>Wake".
>
>
>
>> Burroughs was not writing *about* the end of language, he was writing to
>> *bring about* the end of language. He recognized the impasse this brought
>> about (Skerl notes this, from correspondance with wsb), and succumbed to
>> it in his return to narrative in The Wild Boys.
>
>=== But the Wild Boys have their own language; so Burroughs is at least
>writing about *sidestepping* conventional language.
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Jeffrey Scott Holland
>somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
<center>************************************************************
Edward Desautels
7 Hamilton Road
Somerville, MA 02144
edesaute@bbnplanet.com
http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
<smaller>"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,
I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
Jacques Rigaut
</smaller>************************************************************</center>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:23:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: more beats on jeopardy!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Jeopardy is a virus from outer space.
Ed
At 06:21 PM 1/28/98 -0600, you wrote:
>another beat question on jeopardy! today....
>Category: "Author's odd jobs"...."He was a bartender,
>private detective, and exterminator before he wrote Naked Lunch"
>they got it right, fortunately
>
>*******
>Jeff Taylor
>taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
>*******
>
<center>************************************************************
Edward Desautels
7 Hamilton Road
Somerville, MA 02144
edesaute@bbnplanet.com
http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
<smaller>"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,
I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
Jacques Rigaut
</smaller>************************************************************</center>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:51:47 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: critical essays
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The Spontaneous Poetics of Jack Kerouac by Regina Weinreich which is a
book-length treatment of the entire Duluoz Legend. Also, William Lhamon's
Deliberate Speed contains helpful criticism on Kerouac's OTR and Visions of
Cody -- personally, I think this is fine work. And finally Michael
Davidson's The
San Francisco Renaissance weaves Kerouac and other Beats into that larger
scene there.
Hope this helps,
Preston
>Kimberly-
>The only one Im familiar with is something called "Kerouac's Crooked
>Road", written by Tim Hunt, I believe.
>On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Kimberly Yang wrote:
>
>> Hi Everyone.
>>
>> I'm writing an essay about Kerouac and his novels. Do anyone know where
>> I can find critical essays about his work? Thanks a lot!
>>
>> Kim
>>
>> ______________________________________________________
>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:43:13 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: critical essays
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Kim wrote:
> > Hi Everyone.
> >
> > I'm writing an essay about Kerouac and his novels. Do anyone know
where
> > I can find critical essays about his work? Thanks a lot!
> >
> > Kim
There's a book called "The Spontaneous Poetics of Jack Kerouac" by Regina
Weinreich. Also "Passionate Opinions" and "Representative Men" by John
Clellon Holmes have several fascinating essays on Kerouac and his work
(among others) by Jack's old friend Holmes.
For more possibilities see the bibliography at the end of "The Portable
Beat Reader" edited by Ann Charters.
Good luck!
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:37:27 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CARL PORTER <CPORTER@WEBER.EDU>
Subject: critical essays -Reply
Comments: To: kjyang@HOTMAIL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Try The Beat Generation Writers edited by A. Robert Lee. It includes the
critical essay "I'm only a jolly storyteller: Jack Kerouac's On the Road and
Visions of Cody"
carl
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:48:50 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Where's the beef? (was: Re: beat weekend)
Comments: To: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear Mr. Desautels,
Thank you for posting your essay _Appropriation and Transmogrification_
on the Beat List-serv. I have read it with profit.
I am reminded that I never really appreciated the narrative tone of
JUNKY until I read in THE MAMMOTH BOOK OF PULP FICTION, which contains
lots a detective stories from the 20s, 30s and 40s. JUNKY, of course,
was written very early in Burroughs' career. I understand that, at the
time of writing JUNKY, Burroughs' deliberate appropriation of the
hard-balled detective style was for very practical reasons - he needed
money and sought to sell a product to a specific market. This is borne
out in various biographical works and in comments by Burroughs' himself.
At some point, however, between JUNKY and EXTERMINATOR, Burroughs'
methods of appropriation appear to have become a conscious stylistic
device whereby he upped the ante, so to speak, in his writing. That is,
he began attempting to communicate a (for lack of a better word)
_message_, be it moral, political or philosophical. It would be
difficult to argue that there is a _message_ in JUNKY beyond its
entertainment value.
Am I on the right track here?
Again, thanks,
John Hasbrouck
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:14:27 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
> do you reall ythink that FW is "opaque" or is actually an extremely
> tightly written narrative (try reading it aloud - esp the "shem the
> penman" and "anna livia" chapters and suddenly the jokes and accents that
> jj used are readily apparent (in my opinion) - this is word play at its
> best - multilingual puns, phonetic pronunciation of a dialect and accent
> and scholarly deconstruction of language and communication.
And Edward Desautels also wrote:
> I would question the assertion regarding the "...totally opaque
> communication, a la Joyce's "Finnegan's Wake."
=== I didn't mean that it was opaque to the people actively taking part
in the communication, of course; then it wouldn't be much of a
communication.
No, I meant FW is opaque to those who don't speak the secret code,
which would be most everyday citizens. FW is a rorschach test for the
intelligentsia, a sort of encoded trivia quiz. To the average reader who
does not understand the method of the writing, nor the literary,
geographical, historical and biblical references and allusions, and who
does not know how to break words down to their Latin roots, FW is a work
written in secret code that they can never crack without the codex of
education.
I tried to read FW as a child, after hearing of John Lennon's 1965-1966
books of prose being compared to Joyce. As a child, I thought the book
was fantastic, but more as a surrealist object - I was certain that it
was nothing more than stream-of-consciousness gobbledygook with only an
occasional snatch of punny broken English floating to the surface. Now
of course, I know better, but for millions of people out there, FW is as
impenetrable now as it was for me as a child. Even the most educated
rabid Joycean scholars still find new meanings constantly in FW, and
squabble, debate and argue endlessly about the details.
This is, to me, the logical next step that WSB should have taken after
his cutups, because they are in the same spirit of code, tongues, Cant
language, cyphers. "Naked Lunch" made no sense to me as a child either.
To WSB, however, and those in his circle of influence it made sense -
more and more sense, in fact, the deeper inside that circle you were,
and understood the references to his own life. The irony of all this is
that even as WSB claimed to want to break down language, smashing all
barriers and "systems of control", he was actually using the broken
pieces to build his *own* barrier, his own barricade against the world.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland
somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:10:45 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: BOB KAUFMAN
In-Reply-To: <199801281711.MAA07107@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>WIND, SEA,
>SKY, STARS,
>SURROUND
>US
>
>BOB KAUFMAN
>
>
>ps to jo grant: all caps are kaufman's :)
>mc
MC,
Alan Kornbloom (Coffee House Press, Mpls) sent me a pre pub copy of CRANIAL
GUITAR, and later the book so I'd have the cover art. Interesting how BK
used type. There doesn't seem to be a pattern. I should ask Nicosia about
that. He's a wealth of information when it comes to Bob Kaufman.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
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625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:42:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: Where's the beef? (was: Re: beat weekend)
Comments: To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
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Dear Mr. Hasbrouck:
Thanks for the comments. I would agree with you that there was a shift in=
Burroughs' motivation between the writing of _Junky_ and _Exterminator!_.
I do would argue, however, that despite his desire to write something=
"publishable," Burroughs' examination of the topic of addiction (whether=
intentional or not) runs somewhat deeper than an exploitation of the junk=
experience to entertain the readers "dime-store" detective fiction. (As I=
recall, _Junky_ was originally published back-to-back with the "memoirs" of=
a law enforcement official whose career was spent "busting" drug addicts.)=
I think, in _Junky_, we see the seeds of the overarching, rhetorical=
question informing _Naked Lunch_: "Wouldn't You?" Even, perhaps, without=
consciousness of thematic development, Burroughs is beginning, in _Junky_,=
to explore the nature of addiction, the notion of its ubiquity, and the=
insidious process by which one addiction easily stands in for or supplants=
another. "Don't assume a standpoint of righteousness, " he seems to be=
saying, "when examining my addiction to junk. It happened to me, and it=
could easily happen to you. Now, what say we pop over to that little bar=
across the street, drink a coupla strong Martinis, smoke a coupla expensive=
cigars, an' get us a piece of ass. Doesn't that sound tasty?"
As regards tone, I see Burroughs' early work as strongly influenced by the=
"autobiography" of a character named Jack Black titled _You Can't Win_. The=
book purports to be an insider's look at the yeggs, hobos, and criminal=
underworld in the turn-of-the-century U.S. and Canada. Burroughs speaks of=
reading this book at an early age and describes the heavy influence it had=
on his life. It's an interesting work (whether genuine or faux), and a good=
project might be to read the early works of Burroughs "through" _You Can't=
Win_. I read an original edition of this book several years ago and was=
fascinated by Burroughs' appropriation of Black's voice and tone. I=
recently acquired a copy of my own, published in 1992 by an outfit called=
Omnium Press. Try Amazon.com if you're interested, but, be warned, this=
edition is rife with distracting typos!
Best Regards,
Ed
At 09:48 AM 1/29/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Dear Mr. Desautels,
>
>Thank you for posting your essay _Appropriation and Transmogrification_
>on the Beat List-serv. I have read it with profit.
>
>I am reminded that I never really appreciated the narrative tone of
>JUNKY until I read in THE MAMMOTH BOOK OF PULP FICTION, which contains
>lots a detective stories from the 20s, 30s and 40s. JUNKY, of course,
>was written very early in Burroughs' career. I understand that, at the
>time of writing JUNKY, Burroughs' deliberate appropriation of the
>hard-balled detective style was for very practical reasons - he needed
>money and sought to sell a product to a specific market. This is borne
>out in various biographical works and in comments by Burroughs' himself.
>At some point, however, between JUNKY and EXTERMINATOR, Burroughs'
>methods of appropriation appear to have become a conscious stylistic
>device whereby he upped the ante, so to speak, in his writing. That is,
>he began attempting to communicate a (for lack of a better word)
>_message_, be it moral, political or philosophical. It would be
>difficult to argue that there is a _message_ in JUNKY beyond its
>entertainment value.
>
>Am I on the right track here?
>
>Again, thanks,
>
>John Hasbrouck
>
<center>************************************************************
Edward Desautels
7 Hamilton Road
Somerville, MA 02144
edesaute@bbnplanet.com
http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
<smaller>"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20
I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
Jacques Rigaut
</smaller>************************************************************</cent=
er>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:31:24 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
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> Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
>
> No, I meant FW is opaque to those who don't speak the secret code,
> which would be most everyday citizens. FW is a rorschach test for the
> intelligentsia, a sort of encoded trivia quiz. To the average reader
> who
> does not understand the method of the writing, nor the literary,
> geographical, historical and biblical references and allusions, and who
> does not know how to break words down to their Latin roots, FW is a
> work
> written in secret code that they can never crack without the codex of
> education.
I vigorously oppose the theory that Finnegans Wake (FW) is written in a
secret code and that in order to understand FW it is necessary to
decipher the code, to translate it into English, as the theory implies.
In fact, the reason that FW is unapproachable to many readers is because
they grasp hold onto this theory. For years even literary critics
approached the work with the theory that deciphering it would make it
more understandable. In pre-occupation with linguistic analysis, critics
and readers miss the overall meaning and value of FW. It is necessary
first of all to give up conventional notions of language for the language
of the dream--the language of the unconscious cannot be read in a
traditional manner. In the dream, language becomes blurred, the edges of
words slide away, time disappears; words, syllables recall other words
and syllables, perhaps similar in sound but not in meaning. People spend
lifetimes on exegesis and miss the the overall meaning of the Wake, which
exists in a broader examination of myth, cycles, dream and being.
Finnegans Wake is not Rorschach. It is a unique and FULLY INTENTIONAL
world.
> This is, to me, the logical next step that WSB should have taken after
> his cutups, because they are in the same spirit of code, tongues, Cant
> language, cyphers. "Naked Lunch" made no sense to me as a child either.
> To WSB, however, and those in his circle of influence it made sense -
> more and more sense, in fact, the deeper inside that circle you were,
> and understood the references to his own life. The irony of all this is
> that even as WSB claimed to want to break down language, smashing all
> barriers and "systems of control", he was actually using the broken
> pieces to build his *own* barrier, his own barricade against the world.
What I perceive as one of the differences between Joyce and Burroughs is
that Joyce did not intend to break down language, he took language into
the unconscious, a point beyond which it had ever been taken before. In
the unconscious, words run together and it is the images that reveal
meaning and multiple meanings. Where Burroughs tried to subvert or play
as creator with the control language has on its own, he didn't go into
the place beyond language. Joyce's conscious use of etymology, allusions
to other words, events, personages, puns, use of Dublin pub talk, long
lines of catalogues, newspaper headlines, and recurrent use of dream
images and thematic material form part of a huge flowing substance that
is created and controlled by Joyce the artist. Joyce has created a
universe in which everything fits--the book as world. In FW even
language is part of this creation out of nothing process--a process of
being and becoming.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:56:19 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Lowell 1998
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could someone backchannel me with likely dates for any Kerouac
Celebration in the Fall of 1998 in Lowell?
thanks in advance,
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:56:58 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
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Diane Carter wrote:
>
> I vigorously oppose the theory that Finnegans Wake (FW) is written in a
> secret code and that in order to understand FW it is necessary to
> decipher the code, to translate it into English, as the theory implies.
> In fact, the reason that FW is unapproachable to many readers is because
> they grasp hold onto this theory.
=== By 'code' I simply mean an invented manner of speech which the
reader is not familiar with. James Joyce knew what he meant by
"spidsiest hem of her trikkikant". I don't. Thus, it is a code of sorts,
certainly secret to me; a Cant language. So are Algebra and Quantum
Physics, to those who are not fluent in them.
> It is necessary
> first of all to give up conventional notions of language for the language
> of the dream--the language of the unconscious cannot be read in a
> traditional manner.
=== In another words, a code.
> words, syllables recall other words
> and syllables, perhaps similar in sound but not in meaning.
=== this is literally the textbook definition of a code.
> Finnegans Wake is not Rorschach. It is a unique and FULLY INTENTIONAL
> world.
=== All of human experience is a Rorschach test in a sense, in that no
two human beings can see the same thing exactly. FW is more so than
others because it is a dense web of puns, riddles, spoonerisms,
deliberate malapropisms, slang, and references that are over many
readers' heads, thus the book makes greater demands of its reader and
there is plenty of room for interpretation, "wrong" or not. What Joyce
actually intended is immaterial, almost quaintly so. No one, including
you or myself, will ever fully know what Joyce intended. As with the
Bible, people will eternally be squabbling over the meanings of FW, and
as Lewis Carroll observed, "Who's to be the Master - the reader or the
word?"
> What I perceive as one of the differences between Joyce and Burroughs is
> that Joyce did not intend to break down language, he took language into
> the unconscious, a point beyond which it had ever been taken before.
=== Agreed. WSB probably should have just let his cut-up work stand on
its own without his Dada-esque grandiose claims that he was trying to
destroy language, the idea of which seems even more foolish now than it
did then. Oddly, though WSB almost always had the gift of gab, his
attempts to explain and defend his cut-up process never came off very
convincingly articulated.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland
somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:16:31 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Where's the beef? (was: Re: beat weekend)
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Edward Desautels wrote:
> Burroughs' examination of the topic of addiction
> (whether intentional or not) runs somewhat deeper than an exploitation
> of the junk experience to entertain the readers "dime-store" detective
> fiction.
=== Agreed. Burroughs didn't really see himself as writing lurid
dime-store trash, and his writing was far more honest than the
armchair-lowlifes who tried in vain to imagine "the seedy underbelly" in
their dime novels.
> As regards tone, I see Burroughs' early work as strongly influenced by
> the "autobiography" of a character named Jack Black titled _You Can't
> Win_.
=== Yes, it's virtually the standard by which WSB measured all writing.
It's loaded with colorful characters not unlike his own, and in fact his
Salt Chunk Mary character is lifted straight from YCW, as well as some
text verbatim.
> I read an original
> edition of this book several years ago and was fascinated by
> Burroughs' appropriation of Black's voice and tone. I recently
> acquired a copy of my own, published in 1992 by an outfit called
> Omnium Press. Try Amazon.com if you're interested, but, be warned,
> this edition is rife with distracting typos!
=== Omnium's is out of print, and Amazon thinks it's just "on
backorder". If you can, find a used copy of the Amok Press version, also
sadly out of print, with a gruesome Joe Coleman painting on the cover.
Amok's version was reprinted directly from the original, so you could
read it laid out in the same typography the young WSB saw it in.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland
somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:29:56 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Where's the beef? (was: Re: beat weekend)
Comments: To: Edward Desautels <edesaute@bbnplanet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Edward Desautels wrote:
>
> Dear Mr. Hasbrouck:
>
> Thanks for the comments. I would agree with you that there was a shift
> in Burroughs' motivation between the writing of _Junky_ and
> _Exterminator!_.
-snip-
Dear Ed,
For my money, the key to the common reader's grasping Burroughs' voice
lies in reading of WSB's published correspondence, including _The
Selected Letters of William S. Burroughs: 1945-1959_ and, to a lesser
extent, _The Yage Letters_.
The _shift_ we've been discussing was not, I think, abrupt, but gradual.
By 1953, (where TYL begins), Burroughs has achieved an odd sort of
freedom. By this time he had kissed the U.S. goodbye (for some years,
anyway) and was free from U.S. law enforcement. He'd written _Junky_ and
_Queer_, and had escaped jail time in the accidental shooting death of
his wife Joan - ultimately by leaving Mexico. He'd also come to accept
his drug addiction as something that was most likely to be with him for
a while. He was, at least for the moment, oddly free from the idea that
kicking was something he MUST do.
At this point, his writing (which we possess in his correspondence,
principally with Ginsberg) also achieves remarkable freedom. TYL begins
with some of WSB's first attempts at what is to become perhaps his main
vehicle of cultural commentary, satire and moralising: the routine.
To read Selected Letters (which I maintain is the crucial prerequisite
to persuring the early novels, certainly the best possible key to
unlocking _Naked Lunch_) one observes - in fast forward motion - the
gradual but steady development of Burroughs' voice and identity as a
writer.
Ed: when you say:
_Even, perhaps, without consciousness of thematic development, Burroughs
is beginning, in _Junky_, to explore the nature of addiction, the notion
of its ubiquity, and the insidious process by which one addiction easily
stands in for or supplants another._
I wonder about the legitimacy of my asking just when WSB's exploration
of the nature of addiction became a conscious theme in his work. I
wonder this because I only have the books, bios and interviews to go on,
and am concerned that I may be attempting to psychoanalyse the author
rather than interpret his work. Actually I'm interested in Burroughs'
life AND work - I am able to distinguish the two (some of my friends
can't - or won't). Now, I ain't no literary theorist - I calls 'em as I
sees 'em. And I can appreciate _tendencies_ in the novels, but...am I
getting into deep water here?
John Hasbrouck,
Common Reader
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:39:59 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Young <Sean.Young@DSW.COM>
Subject: Re: Looking for info. on Jack Kerouac School for Disenchante
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Hey Sundee and all,
I have visited the Jack Kerouac School of "DISEMBODIED" Poetics a
couple of times. Once in July '93 to see Allen read and then again in
the summer of '94 for the tribute to Allen Ginsberg. I found the
school to be inspiring. I talked to a number of students in the MFA
writing and poetics programs and the one thing that stands out for
them is diversity in the program. As in, the opportunity to really
shape your own journey through the program through the exposure to
diverse points of view. I would attend Naropa in a second if I had my
shit together. For me the best advantage of attending Naropa is the
respect that is given emerging and living poetics.
Is there anyone on the list who has attended Naropa? If only for a
summer program? I would also appreciate any input that a more indepth
experience could offer.
Thanks,
Sean D. Young
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Looking for info. on Jack Kerouac School for Disenchanted Po
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 1/28/98 8:43 PM
Hello.
I am looking at graduate schools and am very interested in finding out more
about the creative writing department at Naropa in Boulder, CO. I have some
information about it, but would like to know some inside scoop from anyone who
has attended, visited, etc. etc.
Thanks for any info..
Sundee Bumgarner
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:04:22 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Looking for info. on Jack Kerouac School for Disenchanted
Poetics @ Naropa
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the Jack Kerouac School for
DisEMBODIED Poetics? I hardly think anyone would accuse JK of being
disenchanted! If it's info on Naropa you want, Sundee, check out their
website at www.naropa.edu
Maggie
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:17:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: Lowell 1998
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I've attended a couple of the Lowell Celebrates Jack Kerouac festivals, as well
as the concurrent Beat Lit Symposia. Unless they've radically rescheduled,
these events usually take place in the first weeks of October (Kerouac's
favorite month, they say). I believe this information is posted on a City of
Lowell Web site. You can also get information, I believe, at the UMass Lowell
Web site. I'll dig into my records at home and see if I can turn up a phone
number from the department at UML that sponsors the Symposium.
Ed Desautels
At 01:56 PM 1/29/98 +0300, you wrote:
>could someone backchannel me with likely dates for any Kerouac
>Celebration in the Fall of 1998 in Lowell?
>
>thanks in advance,
>dbr
>
<center>************************************************************
Edward Desautels
7 Hamilton Road
Somerville, MA 02144
edesaute@bbnplanet.com
http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
<smaller>"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,
I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
Jacques Rigaut
</smaller>************************************************************</center>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:12:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
>> What I perceive as one of the differences between Joyce and Burroughs is
>> that Joyce did not intend to break down language, he took language into
>> the unconscious, a point beyond which it had ever been taken before.
>
>=== Agreed. WSB probably should have just let his cut-up work stand on
>its own without his Dada-esque grandiose claims that he was trying to
>destroy language, the idea of which seems even more foolish now than it
>did then. Oddly, though WSB almost always had the gift of gab, his
>attempts to explain and defend his cut-up process never came off very
>convincingly articulated.
Minor point: I don't think the Dadas were so much interested in _destroying_
language as wresting it from the control of the bourgeoisie. Whether or not
these two aims are merely iterations of each other is open to speculation.
Andre Codrescu has an interesting essay titled "The Triumphant Shipwreck of Dada
and Surrealism" in which he discusses Dada, Surrealism, Burroughs/Gysin cut-up
and the appropriation (and vulgarization?) of these by popular culture. I think
it's contained in a collection called _The Disappearance of the Outside_. It's
worth having a look at.
Ed
<center>************************************************************
<bigger>Edward Desautels
7 Hamilton Road
Somerville, MA 02144
edesaute@bbnplanet.com
http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,
I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
Jacques Rigaut
</bigger>************************************************************</center>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:40:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: critical essays
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At 05:16 PM 1/28/98 PST, you wrote:
>Hi Everyone.
>
>I'm writing an essay about Kerouac and his novels. Do anyone know where
>I can find critical essays about his work? Thanks a lot!
>
>Kim
>The Kerouac Quarterly my friend....Paul.
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:40:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: critical essays
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The Kerouac Quarterly!
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:00:05 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
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Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
> Right now, Im reading the Herbert Huncke Reader, which I got for Chanukah
> and its very interesting to see how casually he refers to the more famous
> members of the BG. He never uses AG's last name but refers to 'Allen'
> quite often and its obvious who he is talking about. Also, the references
> to 'Bill' or 'Old Bull Lee'. Its a really good book. What do you all
> think?
> ~Nancy
>
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
i think somebody should give it to me! i saw him on a couple different
videos and i believe his words on paper would be fascinating. If Neal
was the genius of the visible Beat Generation, Huncke was the genius of
the seedy underbelly.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:05:16 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: BOB KAUFMAN
MIME-Version: 1.0
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yo, joe: have you asked yet? what an enigmatic person he seems to have been.
mc
jo grant wrote:
> >
> >WIND, SEA,
> >SKY, STARS,
> >SURROUND
> >US
> >
> >BOB KAUFMAN
> >
> >
> >ps to jo grant: all caps are kaufman's :)
> >mc
>
> MC,
> Alan Kornbloom (Coffee House Press, Mpls) sent me a pre pub copy of CRANIAL
> GUITAR, and later the book so I'd have the cover art. Interesting how BK
> used type. There doesn't seem to be a pattern. I should ask Nicosia about
> that. He's a wealth of information when it comes to Bob Kaufman.
> j grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:47:52 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Zyprexa Blues #335
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Lost in a monopoly game about to lose my mind, i am the sports car, cash
short, property only decaying slums, Simon leGreeeedmonster sits across
licking his chops and counting his deeds as he polishes his keys, keys
to the City, County and Universe and me with a rusty old skeleton key in
a rusting out rambler sportser with Idaho plates. SURVIVAL! that's the
only word with meaning as Carlos Santana skips in my head. Survival is
all i have this sacred second. "Monopoly is so much fun i'd hate to
blow the game" i hear Phil Ochs ringing in my ear in Outside a small
circle of friends. hey phil, what's up? remember me he says? sure i
was just listening to your broadside interviews today. you're wrong
about blonde on blonde by the way. i was wrong about a few things he
admits. is it true the fbi and cia pushed you to suicide i wonder
aloud? no man i hung myself pure and simple. that's a shame i say.
shoulda kept your eye on the word ... survival ... yep he agrees. you
do it for me he says and vanishes. "Monopoly is so much fun i'd hate to
blow the game" do it for me says the vanishing wordman...simon
leGreedymonster is breathing his garlicladen vampire breath down my neck
from the other side of the table and i'd hate to blow the game caught in
phil's lyrics momentarily and then - Heck, i says to myself, i says Heck
I've thrown many a game of Monopoly back in the days when the most
notorious set of Original Gangstas used to meet on claflin holler to
plot the future of parallel universe takeovers. I've thrown him might
as well blow 'em i think -- after all it's a matter of survival of
sooner or later pick sooner everytime and i'm standing over William's
casket, beautiful vestage his can, hat on the top he winks and says i
gotta go kid you hold the fort, meaning Survive i suppose and so it's
SimonMonster vs. me and the name is survival with a burroughsian spin,
k-9 shift coordinate points, copy, k-9 shit to fe-line in all cases,
copy, let the cat out of the bag, copy, survive it can be done, i flash
to star wars yoda plastered behind a doorway not a curtain and the way
of the wizard reveals itself to me through the FoRcE of Muses Mill.
The dice roll revealing the next Universe I will exist within and the
double hexes land me not in Jail but smack damnitt right on Park Place
with Seven Hotels each with a different name.
YIKES! my interior landscape screams primally and my pistons lock in
panic anxiety disorder overwhelming Zyprexa-Tegretol stew
instantaneously but momentarily. I pull a Joker out of my sleeve slap
it on the table double means roll again this time into parallel universe
for all place Re-Place with Street not owned by LeGreedmonster but by
Lamar's neighbor.
<http://www.mapblast.com/yt.hm?&CMD=MAP&SEC=blast&FAM=mapblast&GC=X:-97.61925|Y:
38.84414|LT:38.84421|LN:-97.61919|LS:10000|c:Salina|s:KS|z:67401|d:678|p:USA&IC
=38.84414:-97.61925:8:Potential+Home&GAD2=817+Park+St&GAD3=Salina%2c+KS++67401-
2170&MA=2&LV=3>
sounds like a fair defense and a sweet survival offense i think humming
one flew east and one flew west and one converted park place to a place
called West Park Street and found home without Ruby slippers but rather
only red converse allstars.
1-29-98
copyright david b. rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:35:11 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
>
> === this is literally the textbook definition of a code.
The thing is, you need only to experience the language of this world
(FW), not translate it. You can take whatever background you have and
read FW and get something out of it. It's true that the more knowledge
you have about various subjects, the more you are able to penetrate to
deeper levels in the work. I don't think changing the way one
experiences language or words is the same as cracking a code. It
has more to do with the reader's participation in the dream world.
Perhaps in the same way understanding the process of cut-ups doesn't have
much to do with experiencing the images or meaning one gets from the
individual words or various combinations of words.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:03:35 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Diane Carter wrote:
> The thing is, you need only to experience the language of this world
> (FW), not translate it.
=== That *is* one very valid way of approaching it, but not the only way
and, arguably, not the primary way. When I read it, I cannot help but
pick it apart hyperanalytically - the encoded deeper meanings were put
there to be read - but when I get to a passage that I can't fathom (and
there are plenty), then I revert into the mode I think you're talking
about, experiencing the beauty of the dream language strictly for its
own sake.
> You can take whatever background you have and
> read FW and get something out of it.
=== If you had the average person on the street read it, and ask them
what they got out of it, they'd probably say not much, except maybe that
confirmation that placing a monkey in front of a typewriter does not
produce "Hamlet". The masses do not get it. I've spent years trying to
convince people that FW isn't useless random nonsense. I don't think
ANYTHING is nonsense, myself, but that's a whole 'nother thread.
> I don't think changing the way one
> experiences language or words is the same as cracking a code.
=== I don't see what the difference is, especially when we're talking
about changing the way one experiences the MEANING of words, as well as
coining new ones. Double meanings are the very definition of code.
Any foreign language is a secret code to anyone who hasn't learned to
speak it, and that includes the dream language of FW.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland
somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:07:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
In-Reply-To: <34D09975.5636@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Yeah,Im really enjoying the book. Its got a whole bunch of stuff in it,
like The Evening Sun Turned Crimson and his journal. Its really easy to
read.
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> >
> > Right now, Im reading the Herbert Huncke Reader, which I got for Chanukah
> > and its very interesting to see how casually he refers to the more famous
> > members of the BG. He never uses AG's last name but refers to 'Allen'
> > quite often and its obvious who he is talking about. Also, the references
> > to 'Bill' or 'Old Bull Lee'. Its a really good book. What do you all
> > think?
> > ~Nancy
> >
> > The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> > Sure-JK
>
> i think somebody should give it to me! i saw him on a couple different
> videos and i believe his words on paper would be fascinating. If Neal
> was the genius of the visible Beat Generation, Huncke was the genius of
> the seedy underbelly.
>
> dbr
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:06:19 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 29-Jan-98 6:00:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jholland@ICLUB.ORG writes:
<< The masses do not get it. I've spent years trying to
convince people that FW isn't useless random nonsense. I don't think
ANYTHING is nonsense, myself, but that's a whole 'nother thread. >>
Boy, ain't that the truth? And thanks to everyone for contributing to a thread
that's very interesting and educational while not being so esoteric as to be
beyond my level of educational comprehension. You all have given me a desire
to read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!
Wanna talk Jabberwockie?
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:20:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
In-Reply-To: <14917a5.34d1359d@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Sorry, I just need clarification but what or who is 'FW'? Thanks...
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Maggie Dharma wrote:
> In a message dated 29-Jan-98 6:00:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> jholland@ICLUB.ORG writes:
>
> << The masses do not get it. I've spent years trying to
> convince people that FW isn't useless random nonsense. I don't think
> ANYTHING is nonsense, myself, but that's a whole 'nother thread. >>
>
> Boy, ain't that the truth? And thanks to everyone for contributing to a thread
> that's very interesting and educational while not being so esoteric as to be
> beyond my level of educational comprehension. You all have given me a desire
> to read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!
>
> Wanna talk Jabberwockie?
>
> Maggie
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:25:32 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
Mime-Version: 1.0
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That would be "Finnegan's Wake." In addition to the thread about WSB, a lot of
people compare Kerouac's use of language to James Joyce, author of same.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:20:32 CST6CDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Frank O'Brien <FMO9287@CUB.UCA.EDU>
Organization: University of Central Arkansas
Subject: Lookin' For Visions in A Gable
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I'm working on a thesis for Ginsberg (Ye Gods! More academia), and
I'm trying to focus oh his prophetic nature--that is, his poetry as
functional, perhaps as revolutionary? Especially withrespect to the
counter-cultural movement. I've read splotches of info (collected
letters, reviews, the usual twisted stuff), but I've got this idea
swirling et gyre with corpus mundi yet love of the self
celebratory-communal-Whitman-communication-thought that won't leave
me be. I've thought of juxtaposing meaningless Capital-Scam
Babble"Talk" vs. Ginsberg's Metapure-God"Speak" in the sense that
"Talk" is empty as a metaphor & "Speak" is a vehicle for
transcendental visions. The AH! of prophetic visions and what those
visions can accomplish, their inherent Mojo for the masses. Kinda
like Martin Buber's encounter of the "I" and the "Thou." You can
tell I'm gobbling up confusion, but I'd like direction if anyone's
interested in flailing this beast into submission.
As Always,
The Cosmic Joke
Frank O'Brien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:48:51 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: FYI Joyce Lists
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This is from http://www.2street.com/joyce/onsite/email.html
a pretty good Joyce site.
Here is the list info (Joyce Lists and Finnegans wake list)
j-joyce-request@lists.utah.edu
In the subject header of the message, simply type the command "subscribe".
The body of the message may be
left blank.
To unsubscribe, send the command "unsubscribe" in the subject header of an
e-mail message sent to the
j-joyce-request@lists.utah.edu address.
Mail sent to j-joyce@lists.utah.edu will be automatically forwarded to
every subscriber.
Subscribing, Unsubscribing, and Posting to FWAKE-L
To subscribe to FWAKE-L send an e-mail message to the following address:
listserv@listserv.hea.ie
The body of the message must contain the following text:
subscribe FWAKE-L [your name spelled out normally]
To unsubscribe, send the command "signoff FWAKE-L" to the
listserv@listserv.hea.ie address.
Mail sent to fwake-l@irlearn.ucd.ie will be automatically forwarded to
every subscriber.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:52:27 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>That would be "Finnegan's Wake."
Minor but important little detail--there is no apostrophe
Finnegans Wake
Finnegans of the world wake up
In addition to the thread about WSB, a lot of
>people compare Kerouac's use of language to James Joyce, author of same.
>
>Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:57:28 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 29-Jan-98 6:55:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU writes:
<< Finnegans Wake
Finnegans of the world wake up
>>
thanks, tim... the second I sent it I thought I'd done it wrong. Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:00:11 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Joyce's work is available in e-text.
This link will take you to a page with all the urls
http://www.2street.com/joyce/etext/index.html
But one weird thing is until some lawsuit gets settled technically in the
US we aren't supposed to download them.
When will kerouac's public domain stuff get upped to the internet in e-text?
Actually, we are the folks who would be supposed to do it.
O
tell me all about
Anna Livia! I want to hear all
about Anna Livia. Well, you know Anna Livia? Yes, of course,
we all know Anna Livia. Tell me all. Tell me now. You'll die
when you hear. Well, you know, when the old cheb went futt
and did what you know. Yes, I know, go on. Wash quit and
don't be dabbling. Tuck up your sleeves and loosen your talk-
tapes. And don't butt me -- hike! -- when you bend. Or what-
ever it was they threed to make out he thried to two in the
Fiendish park. He's an awful old reppe. Look at the shirt of him !
Look at the dirt of it! He has all my water black on me. And it
steeping and stuping since this time last wik. How many goes
is it I wonder I washed it? I know by heart the places he likes to
saale, duddurty devil! Scorching my hand and starving my fa-
mine to make his private linen public. Wallop it well with your
battle and clean it. My wrists are wrusty rubbing the mouldaw
stains. And the dneepers of wet and the gangres of sin in it! What
was it he did a tail at all on Animal Sendai? And how long was
he under loch and neagh? It was put in the newses what he did,
nicies and priers, the King fierceas Humphrey, with illysus dis-
tilling, exploits and all. But toms will till. I know he well. Temp
untamed will hist for no man. As you spring so shall you neap.
O, the roughty old rappe! Minxing marrage and making loof.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:27:19 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that
I thought was well worth sharing.
Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
Take my love, it is not true,
So let it tempt no body new;
Take my lady, she will sigh
For my bed where'er I lie;
Take them, said the skeleton,
But leave my bones alone.
Take my raiment, now grown cold,
To give to some poor poet old;
Take the skin that hoods this truth
If his age would wear my youth;
Take them, said the skeleton,
But leave my bones alone.
Take the thoughts that like the wind
Blow my body out of mind;
Take this heart to go with that
And pass it on from rat to rat;
Take them, said the skeleton,
But leave my bones alone.
Take the art which I bemoan
In a poem's crazy tone;
Grind me down, though I may groan,
To the starkest stick and stone;
Take them, said the skeleton,
But leave my bones alone.
Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest
minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
counterculture.
Maggie G.
"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:30:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
Ed
At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
> Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that
>I thought was well worth sharing.
>
>
>Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>
>Take my love, it is not true,
>So let it tempt no body new;
>Take my lady, she will sigh
>For my bed where'er I lie;
>Take them, said the skeleton,
> But leave my bones alone.
>
>Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>To give to some poor poet old;
>Take the skin that hoods this truth
>If his age would wear my youth;
>Take them, said the skeleton,
> But leave my bones alone.
>
>Take the thoughts that like the wind
>Blow my body out of mind;
>Take this heart to go with that
>And pass it on from rat to rat;
>Take them, said the skeleton,
> But leave my bones alone.
>
>Take the art which I bemoan
>In a poem's crazy tone;
>Grind me down, though I may groan,
>To the starkest stick and stone;
>Take them, said the skeleton,
> But leave my bones alone.
>
> Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest
>minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
>counterculture.
> Maggie G.
>
>"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
<center>************************************************************
<bigger>Edward Desautels
7 Hamilton Road
Somerville, MA 02144
edesaute@bbnplanet.com
http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,
I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
Jacques Rigaut
</bigger>************************************************************</center>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:23:07 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Lookin' For Visions in A Gable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Frank,
Don't know if this could be of any help, but I just got finished
with a lengthy Ginsberg piece myself, entitled "Love, Death, and the
Teachings of Allen Ginsberg." As the title implies, I focused on
Ginsberg's threefold persona of lover, mortal, and teacher. I'd love
to swap bibliographies with you, as my professor has encouraged me to
continue my research and publish my findings, and I'm sure we can both
use as much help as we can get.
Up to my ears in Allen,
Maggie G.
"In dreams begin responsibilites."--Delmore Schwartz
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:20:52 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Lookin' For Visions in A Gable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> I'm working on a thesis for Ginsberg (Ye Gods! More academia), and
> I'm trying to focus oh his prophetic nature--that is, his poetry as
> functional, perhaps as revolutionar
Frank,
I think this calls for a little immersion in William Blake and in Hebrew
Phrophecy. Both absolutely relevant to AG and both also prophetic and
political.
It is hard to overestimate the importance of both of these sources for
AG in my (not humble) opinion.
James Stauffer
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:38:57 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (low) memorial of Mario Schifano.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980127184547.006a78a4@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Le Stelle di Mario Schifano The Stars by Mario Schifano
Le ultime parole di Brandimante, The last words of Brandimante,
dall'Orlando Furioso, by Orlando Furioso,
ospite Peter Hartman Peter Hartman guest
e fine (da ascoltarsi and end (listen to it
con tv accesa senza volume) tv on no volume)
Molto alto/ Very high/
Susan song/ Susan song/
E dopo/ Later on/
Intervallo/ Intermission/
Molto lontano (a colori) Very distant (colors)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mario Schifano italian beat and pop painter, performer (1934-1998)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Allen Ginsberg, lui ti ha detto che fra tutti i beatnik del
mondo, quelli che gli fanno piu' tenerezza sono i beatnik
italiani perche' protestano contro qualcosa che riusciranno
a vedere solamente i loro figli.
Allen Ginsberg has told that between all the beatnik
on the world, they do him more tenderness are the italian beatnik
because of they protests against anything that only will their sons
succeed to see.
cari saluti a tutti,
Rinaldo.
--------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 03:06:07 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Edward Desautels wrote:
>
> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>
> Ed
>
well what do you think about it?
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 03:13:11 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Where's the beef? (was: Re: beat weekend)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
>
> Edward Desautels wrote:
>
> > Burroughs' examination of the topic of addiction
> > (whether intentional or not) runs somewhat deeper than an exploitation
> > of the junk experience to entertain the readers "dime-store" detective
> > fiction.
>
> === Agreed. Burroughs didn't really see himself as writing lurid
> dime-store trash, and his writing was far more honest than the
> armchair-lowlifes who tried in vain to imagine "the seedy underbelly" in
> their dime novels.
>
> > As regards tone, I see Burroughs' early work as strongly influenced by
> > the "autobiography" of a character named Jack Black titled _You Can't
> > Win_.
>
> === Yes, it's virtually the standard by which WSB measured all writing.
> It's loaded with colorful characters not unlike his own, and in fact his
> Salt Chunk Mary character is lifted straight from YCW, as well as some
> text verbatim.
>
> > I read an original
> > edition of this book several years ago and was fascinated by
> > Burroughs' appropriation of Black's voice and tone. I recently
> > acquired a copy of my own, published in 1992 by an outfit called
> > Omnium Press. Try Amazon.com if you're interested, but, be warned,
> > this edition is rife with distracting typos!
>
> === Omnium's is out of print, and Amazon thinks it's just "on
> backorder". If you can, find a used copy of the Amok Press version, also
> sadly out of print, with a gruesome Joe Coleman painting on the cover.
> Amok's version was reprinted directly from the original, so you could
> read it laid out in the same typography the young WSB saw it in.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Jeffrey Scott Holland
> somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
i particularly liked the portion of the essay earlier in this thread
about DE. it definitely is an approach to the book and to the presence
of everyday living.
dbr
roots in some holler in muses mill kentucky
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:59:49 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa Blues #335
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
sounds like caffeine buzzed blues - amazing word play, dave
mc
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> Lost in a monopoly game about to lose my mind, i am the sports car, cash
> short, property only decaying slums, Simon leGreeeedmonster sits across
> licking his chops and counting his deeds as he polishes his keys, keys
> to the City, County and Universe and me with a rusty old skeleton key in
> a rusting out rambler sportser with Idaho plates. SURVIVAL! that's the
> only word with meaning as Carlos Santana skips in my head. Survival is
> all i have this sacred second. "Monopoly is so much fun i'd hate to
> blow the game" i hear Phil Ochs ringing in my ear in Outside a small
> circle of friends. hey phil, what's up? remember me he says? sure i
> was just listening to your broadside interviews today. you're wrong
> about blonde on blonde by the way. i was wrong about a few things he
> admits. is it true the fbi and cia pushed you to suicide i wonder
> aloud? no man i hung myself pure and simple. that's a shame i say.
> shoulda kept your eye on the word ... survival ... yep he agrees. you
> do it for me he says and vanishes. "Monopoly is so much fun i'd hate to
> blow the game" do it for me says the vanishing wordman...simon
> leGreedymonster is breathing his garlicladen vampire breath down my neck
> from the other side of the table and i'd hate to blow the game caught in
> phil's lyrics momentarily and then - Heck, i says to myself, i says Heck
> I've thrown many a game of Monopoly back in the days when the most
> notorious set of Original Gangstas used to meet on claflin holler to
> plot the future of parallel universe takeovers. I've thrown him might
> as well blow 'em i think -- after all it's a matter of survival of
> sooner or later pick sooner everytime and i'm standing over William's
> casket, beautiful vestage his can, hat on the top he winks and says i
> gotta go kid you hold the fort, meaning Survive i suppose and so it's
> SimonMonster vs. me and the name is survival with a burroughsian spin,
> k-9 shift coordinate points, copy, k-9 shit to fe-line in all cases,
> copy, let the cat out of the bag, copy, survive it can be done, i flash
> to star wars yoda plastered behind a doorway not a curtain and the way
> of the wizard reveals itself to me through the FoRcE of Muses Mill.
>
> The dice roll revealing the next Universe I will exist within and the
> double hexes land me not in Jail but smack damnitt right on Park Place
> with Seven Hotels each with a different name.
>
> YIKES! my interior landscape screams primally and my pistons lock in
> panic anxiety disorder overwhelming Zyprexa-Tegretol stew
> instantaneously but momentarily. I pull a Joker out of my sleeve slap
> it on the table double means roll again this time into parallel universe
> for all place Re-Place with Street not owned by LeGreedmonster but by
> Lamar's neighbor.
>
<http://www.mapblast.com/yt.hm?&CMD=MAP&SEC=blast&FAM=mapblast&GC=X:-97.61925|Y
:
>
38.84414|LT:38.84421|LN:-97.61919|LS:10000|c:Salina|s:KS|z:67401|d:678|p:USA&IC
>
=38.84414:-97.61925:8:Potential+Home&GAD2=817+Park+St&GAD3=Salina%2c+KS++67401-
> 2170&MA=2&LV=3>
>
> sounds like a fair defense and a sweet survival offense i think humming
> one flew east and one flew west and one converted park place to a place
> called West Park Street and found home without Ruby slippers but rather
> only red converse allstars.
>
> 1-29-98
> copyright david b. rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:37:40 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv bu=
t as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality =
of beat lit. and
speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?
i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've beee=
n reading ginsberg for years.
mc
Edward Desautels wrote:
> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>
> Ed
>
> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that
> >I thought was well worth sharing.
> >
> >
> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
> >
> >Take my love, it is not true,
> >So let it tempt no body new;
> >Take my lady, she will sigh
> >For my bed where'er I lie;
> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> > But leave my bones alone.
> >
> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
> >To give to some poor poet old;
> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
> >If his age would wear my youth;
> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> > But leave my bones alone.
> >
> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
> >Blow my body out of mind;
> >Take this heart to go with that
> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> > But leave my bones alone.
> >
> >Take the art which I bemoan
> >In a poem's crazy tone;
> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
> >To the starkest stick and stone;
> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> > But leave my bones alone.
> >
> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest
> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
> >counterculture.
> > Maggie G.
> >
> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________
> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> =
=
=01=F4=D2*
> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
> =
=
=01=F4=DAp
>
> =
=
=01=F4=DA=A5
> =
=
=01=F4=DB=04
> =
=
=01=F4=DB=04
> =
=
=01=F4x8
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:13:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980129223011.007b6a30@pobox3.bbn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Thanks to whoever posting the poem...I havent read it.
TO Edward:
Just because its Beat Listserv doesnt mean everyone knows everything
about the Beats. Don't speak for me because I dont like your tone of
voice.
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:
> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>
>
> Ed
>
>
> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that
>
> >I thought was well worth sharing.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>
> >
>
> >Take my love, it is not true,
>
> >So let it tempt no body new;
>
> >Take my lady, she will sigh
>
> >For my bed where'er I lie;
>
> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
> > But leave my bones alone.
>
> >
>
> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>
> >To give to some poor poet old;
>
> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
>
> >If his age would wear my youth;
>
> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
> > But leave my bones alone.
>
> >
>
> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
>
> >Blow my body out of mind;
>
> >Take this heart to go with that
>
> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
>
> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
> > But leave my bones alone.
>
> >
>
> >Take the art which I bemoan
>
> >In a poem's crazy tone;
>
> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
>
> >To the starkest stick and stone;
>
> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
> > But leave my bones alone.
>
> >
>
> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest
>
> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
>
> >counterculture.
>
> > Maggie G.
>
> >
>
> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >_________________________________________________________
>
> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
>
> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> >
>
> <center>************************************************************
>
> <bigger>Edward Desautels
>
> 7 Hamilton Road
>
> Somerville, MA 02144
>
> edesaute@bbnplanet.com
>
> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
>
>
> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,
>
> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
>
> Jacques Rigaut
>
> </bigger>************************************************************</center>
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:10:28 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Lookin' For Visions in A Gable
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:20:32 CST6CDT from
<FMO9287@CUB.UCA.EDU>
You've probably looked at Paul Portuges' Visionary Poetics of Allen
Ginsberg already but if you haven't I'd recommend it.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:21:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see little=
value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without conceptualizing it=
in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile discussion. To simply state=
that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece doesn't go very far toward=
generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to the next step, whether it=
be a personal insight or reflection on some aspect of the piece or=
something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the piece influenced, say,=
your conception of a poetics. Something.
As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours=
handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read about.=
:]
Regards,
Ed
At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv but=
as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality of=
beat lit. and
>speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?
>i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've beeen=
reading ginsberg for years.
>mc
>
>Edward Desautels wrote:
>
>> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that
>> >I thought was well worth sharing.
>> >
>> >
>> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>> >
>> >Take my love, it is not true,
>> >So let it tempt no body new;
>> >Take my lady, she will sigh
>> >For my bed where'er I lie;
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>> >
>> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>> >To give to some poor poet old;
>> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
>> >If his age would wear my youth;
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>> >
>> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
>> >Blow my body out of mind;
>> >Take this heart to go with that
>> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>> >
>> >Take the art which I bemoan
>> >In a poem's crazy tone;
>> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
>> >To the starkest stick and stone;
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>> >
>> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest
>> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
>> >counterculture.
>> > Maggie G.
>> >
>> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_________________________________________________________
>> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
>> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>> >
>> =
=
=01=F4=D2*
>> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
>> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
>> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
>> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
>> =
=
=01=F4=DAp
>>
>> =
=
=01=F4=DA=A5
>> =
=
=01=F4=DB=04
>> =
=
=01=F4=DB=04
>> =
=
=01=F4x8
>
<center>************************************************************
<bigger>Edward Desautels
7 Hamilton Road
Somerville, MA 02144
edesaute@bbnplanet.com
http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20
I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
Jacques Rigaut
</bigger>************************************************************</cente=
r>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:15:55 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maggie Gerrity wrote:
>
> Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that
> I thought was well worth sharing.
=== very nice, Maggie, I had not read this one. I may dig out some more
early Ginsberg today.
>
> Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest
> minds of his generation.
=== Ginsberg is certainly the voice of reason for the Beats. He was not
about to go over the edge like everyone else around him, and tried to
talk some sense into WSB and Kerouac....unfortunately Kerouac didn't
listen, but it's a good thing that WSB didn't listen either; WSB
entered the abyss and came back with postcards and snapshots. Jack
wasn't so lucky. Ginsberg's key role as mother hen to this pack of feral
chickens cannot be overstated.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:12:08 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa Blues #335
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi David,
Thanks for the ride. I feel like I am getting off a roller coaster, my eyes
still squinting and where did I land? A foreign terrain with signs that hint
to nowhere places, some recognizeable (?) a jambled mess(?). Pardon my
ignorance, who are the red converse allstars?
Looking forward
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 4:50 PM
Subject: Zyprexa Blues #335
>Lost in a monopoly game about to lose my mind, i am the sports car, cash
>short, property only decaying slums, Simon leGreeeedmonster sits across
>licking his chops and counting his deeds as he polishes his keys, keys
>to the City, County and Universe and me with a rusty old skeleton key in
>a rusting out rambler sportser with Idaho plates. SURVIVAL! that's the
>only word with meaning as Carlos Santana skips in my head. Survival is
>all i have this sacred second. "Monopoly is so much fun i'd hate to
>blow the game" i hear Phil Ochs ringing in my ear in Outside a small
>circle of friends. hey phil, what's up? remember me he says? sure i
>was just listening to your broadside interviews today. you're wrong
>about blonde on blonde by the way. i was wrong about a few things he
>admits. is it true the fbi and cia pushed you to suicide i wonder
>aloud? no man i hung myself pure and simple. that's a shame i say.
>shoulda kept your eye on the word ... survival ... yep he agrees. you
>do it for me he says and vanishes. "Monopoly is so much fun i'd hate to
>blow the game" do it for me says the vanishing wordman...simon
>leGreedymonster is breathing his garlicladen vampire breath down my neck
>from the other side of the table and i'd hate to blow the game caught in
>phil's lyrics momentarily and then - Heck, i says to myself, i says Heck
>I've thrown many a game of Monopoly back in the days when the most
>notorious set of Original Gangstas used to meet on claflin holler to
>plot the future of parallel universe takeovers. I've thrown him might
>as well blow 'em i think -- after all it's a matter of survival of
>sooner or later pick sooner everytime and i'm standing over William's
>casket, beautiful vestage his can, hat on the top he winks and says i
>gotta go kid you hold the fort, meaning Survive i suppose and so it's
>SimonMonster vs. me and the name is survival with a burroughsian spin,
>k-9 shift coordinate points, copy, k-9 shit to fe-line in all cases,
>copy, let the cat out of the bag, copy, survive it can be done, i flash
>to star wars yoda plastered behind a doorway not a curtain and the way
>of the wizard reveals itself to me through the FoRcE of Muses Mill.
>
>The dice roll revealing the next Universe I will exist within and the
>double hexes land me not in Jail but smack damnitt right on Park Place
>with Seven Hotels each with a different name.
>
>YIKES! my interior landscape screams primally and my pistons lock in
>panic anxiety disorder overwhelming Zyprexa-Tegretol stew
>instantaneously but momentarily. I pull a Joker out of my sleeve slap
>it on the table double means roll again this time into parallel universe
>for all place Re-Place with Street not owned by LeGreedmonster but by
>Lamar's neighbor.
><http://www.mapblast.com/yt.hm?&CMD=MAP&SEC=blast&FAM=mapblast&GC=X:-97.619
25|Y:
>
38.84414|LT:38.84421|LN:-97.61919|LS:10000|c:Salina|s:KS|z:67401|d:678|p:USA
&IC
>
=38.84414:-97.61925:8:Potential+Home&GAD2=817+Park+St&GAD3=Salina%2c+KS++674
01-
> 2170&MA=2&LV=3>
>
>sounds like a fair defense and a sweet survival offense i think humming
>one flew east and one flew west and one converted park place to a place
>called West Park Street and found home without Ruby slippers but rather
>only red converse allstars.
>
>1-29-98
>copyright david b. rhaesa
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:33:15 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Zyprexa Blues #335
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Leon Tabory wrote:
> Pardon my
> ignorance, who are the red converse allstars?
> Looking forward
> leon
>
what are the red converse all stars?
my red tennis shoes.
just said yes to the new landlord. the mapblast site is actually one
block west of where i'll be moving. i have a month to move.
siesta soon,
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:35:24 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Edward Desautels wrote:
>
> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four
> hours handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you
> read about. :]
>
no big deal from my seat, just one of those practice what we preach
paradoxes that we all fall prey to from time to time.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:50:40 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa Blues #335
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Leon Tabory wrote:
> Pardon my
> ignorance, who are the red converse allstars?
=== The Red Converse All-Stars were a hot Chicago jazz-blues band circa
1949-1957, recording several hundred sides on the Bosco, Clanky, and
Postum labels. Lineup usually included Sloppy Smith, piano; Junior
Mintz, alto sax; Peg Leg Otis, bass; Little Jimmy, drums; Merthiolate
Jones, guitar. They briefly had a gig backing up Sarah Vaughan but
getting to stare at her behind threw off their playing abilities.
Then again they might just be a kind of shoe ;)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland
somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:05:47 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Zyprexa Blues #335
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
>
> Leon Tabory wrote:
>
> > Pardon my
> > ignorance, who are the red converse allstars?
>
> === The Red Converse All-Stars were a hot Chicago jazz-blues band circa
> 1949-1957, recording several hundred sides on the Bosco, Clanky, and
> Postum labels. Lineup usually included Sloppy Smith, piano; Junior
> Mintz, alto sax; Peg Leg Otis, bass; Little Jimmy, drums; Merthiolate
> Jones, guitar. They briefly had a gig backing up Sarah Vaughan but
> getting to stare at her behind threw off their playing abilities.
>
> Then again they might just be a kind of shoe ;)
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Jeffrey Scott Holland
> somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
i just thought they were my tennis shoes. i learn something new
everyday.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:29:35 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa Blues #335
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What gives with all them addresses (?) Mapblast.com/YT.HM (??) Numbers and
numbers (?)
Is this a puzzle, a roadmap a clever something or other? Am I confused?
Are you doing a Zyprexa Blues #335 Riddle a la New York Times Crossword
Puzzle? Should I put the issue to sleep?
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: Zyprexa Blues #335
>Leon Tabory wrote:
>> Pardon my
>> ignorance, who are the red converse allstars?
>> Looking forward
>> leon
>>
>what are the red converse all stars?
>my red tennis shoes.
>just said yes to the new landlord. the mapblast site is actually one
>block west of where i'll be moving. i have a month to move.
>siesta soon,
>dbr
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:09:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: FYI Joyce Lists
In-Reply-To: <v01510101b0f680d7c1ad@[128.125.227.42]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Just a note on the Joyce lists -- they're both heavy academic slogging. I
was subscribed to the Joyce list (which focusses on Ulysses, for the most
part) for a while, and it seemed that everyone that posted had either
published a book on Joyce, written their dissertation on him, or were
currently doing their dissertation on him. If that's just the kind of
exclusive Joycean atmosphere you're looking for, you can revel in all the
coded language you want there.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:39:25 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: FYI Joyce Lists
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Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
>
> Just a note on the Joyce lists -- they're both heavy academic slogging. I
> was subscribed to the Joyce list (which focusses on Ulysses, for the most
> part) for a while, and it seemed that everyone that posted had either
> published a book on Joyce, written their dissertation on him, or were
> currently doing their dissertation on him. If that's just the kind of
> exclusive Joycean atmosphere you're looking for, you can revel in all the
> coded language you want there.
=== Yikes, thanks for the warning; I was considering signing up. I speak
a little Joyce-code, but I no speaka academic.....
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland
somewhere in KY listening to Louis Jordan
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:48:36 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: FYI Joyce Lists
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Yes. I must concur with Neil.
At 02:39 PM 1/30/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
>>
>> Just a note on the Joyce lists -- they're both heavy academic slogging. I
>> was subscribed to the Joyce list (which focusses on Ulysses, for the most
>> part) for a while, and it seemed that everyone that posted had either
>> published a book on Joyce, written their dissertation on him, or were
>> currently doing their dissertation on him. If that's just the kind of
>> exclusive Joycean atmosphere you're looking for, you can revel in all the
>> coded language you want there.
>
>
>=== Yikes, thanks for the warning; I was considering signing up. I speak
>a little Joyce-code, but I no speaka academic.....
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Jeffrey Scott Holland
>somewhere in KY listening to Louis Jordan
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:07:17 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Jabberwocky
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Maggie Dharma wrote:
> Wanna talk Jabberwockie?
=== I love it, and think it was definitely in Joyce's head when he wrote
"Ulysses" and "Finnegans Wake". I think James Joyce is the missing link
between Lewis Carroll and Walt Kelly.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland in KY
thinking about sandwiches
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:14:58 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: FYI Joyce Lists
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
>
> Just a note on the Joyce lists -- they're both heavy academic slogging. I
> was subscribed to the Joyce list (which focusses on Ulysses, for the most
> part) for a while, and it seemed that everyone that posted had either
> published a book on Joyce, written their dissertation on him, or were
> currently doing their dissertation on him. If that's just the kind of
> exclusive Joycean atmosphere you're looking for, you can revel in all the
> coded language you want there.
>
> Neil
Agreement all around here.
I've been on the Joyce and Beat listservs, and I think the differences
between the two would be an interesting topic for a paper I'm not
willing to write.
John Hasbrouck
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:48:20 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Zyprexa Blues #335
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Leon Tabory wrote:
>
> What gives with all them addresses (?) Mapblast.com/YT.HM (??) Numbers and
> numbers (?)
> Is this a puzzle, a roadmap a clever something or other? Am I confused?
>
> Are you doing a Zyprexa Blues #335 Riddle a la New York Times Crossword
> Puzzle? Should I put the issue to sleep?
>
> leon
the issue is awake alive and well. only push those buttons with the
seatbelt firmly fastened and the joycean skeleton key in your hip pocket
and a guitar pick in your pick pocket.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:15:19 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Jabberwocky
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
>
> Maggie Dharma wrote:
>
> > Wanna talk Jabberwockie?
>
> === I love it, and think it was definitely in Joyce's head when he wrote
> "Ulysses" and "Finnegans Wake". I think James Joyce is the missing link
> between Lewis Carroll and Walt Kelly.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Jeffrey Scott Holland in KY
> thinking about sandwiches
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
we have met the enemy and he is a papercut.
check this out all you high-brow Joyceans.
<http://www.bway.net/~hunger/ulysses.html>
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:25:46 +0300
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: not exactly Beat
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but someone could probably write something funny putting Ginsberg in the
middle of the current Clinton Comedy.
dbr
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--------------1CE97496755E--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:32:56 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Ed Sanders inquiry
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Has anyone heard anything about Ed Sanders? I am writing a bio/ thesis on the
man and I have scattered, semi-reliable information on him, but through all my
research I haven't yet found any real solid criticism or biographical info.
Aside from a very dated Contemporary Authors entry, there seems to be close to
nada on this still very active beat writer. Is there an unpublished bio out
there? Or maybe a dissertation or thesis?
Sanders is part of a later beat-influenced movement that enters the social,
politicaI activist realm. I know he isn't what you might call a real, or
"legit" beat, but I view him as beat in the same light that Anne Charters
does. At any rate, I follow Beat-L discussion to better understand Sanders'
connection to the beat core.
Sanders latest work, "1968, a history in verse," is quite a read. He really
gets into a conspiratory thang, similar to his manifesto, "Z-D Generation,"
but his historical accounts are accessible and entertaining. He's into writing
underground history in a similar way that Kerouac does in "Visions of Cody."
Drea
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:38:37 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
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As I was reading the posts going back and forth on this subject, i
wanted to say something to the effect of what maggie says here.
thanks to all involved in this discussion--it makes burroughs not so
scary to me anymore...
cathy
> Subject:
> Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play
> Date:
> Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:06:19 EST
> From:
> Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
>
>
> In a message dated 29-Jan-98 6:00:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> jholland@ICLUB.ORG writes:
>
> << The masses do not get it. I've spent years trying to
> convince people that FW isn't useless random nonsense. I don't think
> ANYTHING is nonsense, myself, but that's a whole 'nother thread. >>
>
> Boy, ain't that the truth? And thanks to everyone for contributing to a thread
> that's very interesting and educational while not being so esoteric as to be
> beyond my level of educational comprehension. You all have given me a desire
> to read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!
>
> Wanna talk Jabberwockie?
>
> Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:58:10 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
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Andrea Moore wrote:
> Is there an unpublished bio out
> there? Or maybe a dissertation or thesis?
=== I know of no book solely about Sanders, but there are good books on
the Fugs and the Lower East Side crowd in general, though the names of
these books escape me at the moment. I've never seen a book that covers
him strictly as a writer, but I'd love to see one...
> Sanders is part of a later beat-influenced movement that enters the social,
> politicaI activist realm. I know he isn't what you might call a real, or
> "legit" beat, but I view him as beat in the same light that Anne Charters
> does.
=== I don't wanna open up what is probably an old tired thread here (I
just hopped this train last week), but Ginsberg considered Sanders a
"legit" beat and so do I. Of course, I use a very wide and inclusive
definition of the term.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
drawing Ernest Hemingway on a Burger King napkin
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:13:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: blaster
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Blaster
Map blaster
Sound blaster
Master blaster
Bass blaster
Cap blaster
Disaster blaster
No blaster
Portland Blaster
Mortar blaster
Clinton blaster
Blaster blaster
Blaster blaster blaster
Jazz blaster
Rocket blaster
Blast blaster
Blust blaster.
Blaster
Blast.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:43:32 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: the scary WSB
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Cathy Wilkie wrote:
>
> thanks to all involved in this discussion--it makes burroughs not so
> scary to me anymore...
and Maggie Dharma wrote:
> You all have given me a desire
> to read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!
=== Cathy, Maggie, and others who have expressed similar views of WSB:
what is it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'? I'm just curious.
Is it the horrific imagery in his 60's work, or the man himself? I can't
recommend highly enough a book called "Literary Outlaw" by Ted Morgan,
the greatest WSB biography there is. It does much to dispel the myth of
WSB as a nihilist, sadist, and generally unlikable person.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
listening to Lester Young, 1944 stuff
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:51:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: blaster
particle man,
particle man.
particle man meets blaster man.
oh sorry-
they might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:52:21 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
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In a message dated 30-Jan-98 6:31:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jholland@ICLUB.ORG writes:
<< what is it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'? I'm just curious.
Is it the horrific imagery in his 60's work, >>
yeah, more or less. I haven't felt "invited" in to his prose like I usually do
with writers. There's no doubt he affects or otherwise puts out there a "dark
side." And reading him out of context, i.e., in modern times as opposed to way
back when he originally wrote, he feels somewhat dated to me, out of step
with, certainly, heterosexuality and women as well as heroin use.
of course, I'm just talking off the top of my head. When he died last summer I
visited a bunch of his tribute sites and employed the "cut-up machine" I found
at one of them to see if there was any way I could understand him or produce
anything like what he wrote, or even get a feel for him. I couldn't.
But the discussion on Beat-L lately has been very interesting and has armed me
with ideas to try him again. So I will.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:04:05 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: some thoughts
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I'm probably going to sign off the list pretty soon, not because I don't like
it, but for other reasons that have only to do with myself and are of no
interest to anyone. And I wanted to say something, make an observation before
I go.
I also am subscribed to the Bukowski list, and if I get one piece of mail from
that group a week, that's a full schedule for all those geniuses and barflies.
It's very different from this list in that regard, and good, bad or
indifferent, when a post comes from the Buk list, it is about Bukowski and
nothing else.
It's only an observation, not a conclusion, but it seems to me that people on
this list post occasional thoughtful, soul-searching questions and theories
that make for great discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get
discussed, and someone posts original prose or poetry instead and that gets
discussed. Remember, I'm not really making a judgment here.
Maybe we (meaning the general population here) are not qualified or interested
enough to make a thread last very long or really profit from it; I don't know,
I really don't, I'm just saying maybe. I know I didn't comment a bunch of
times because I didn't know what to say, but I was hoping really hard someone
else would comment, and I'd learn something. Then when I had some
information/knowledge, I did post it, and hope people learned from that and
enjoyed it.
Anyway, it's quality, not quantity, that I've enjoyed here, and I'll
undoubtedly sign up again eventually (I'm not gone yet, though, so don't give
away my seat!).
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:22:50 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: tmbg (was: re:blaster)
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Bob Lewis wrote:
> oh sorry-
> they might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.
=== Actually, a lot of their lyrics are good poetry. I could see "I
Palindrome I" coming from WSB, "Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love" coming
from Kerouac, "Lie Still, Little Bottle" from Ferlinghetti, and "Your
Racist Friend" from Ginsberg. And don't forget "Road Movie To Berlin",
"Birdhouse in Your Soul", etc., etc., the list goes on.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
digging on Blind Willie McTell
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:18:40 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwy Thomas <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: blaster
Mime-Version: 1.0
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and don't forget ice-cream/coffee blasters
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:39:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sanders inquiry
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Jeffrey Scott Holland says,
"I don't wanna open up what is probably an old tired thread here (I
just hopped this train last week), but Ginsberg considered Sanders a
"legit" beat and so do I. Of course, I use a very wide and inclusive
definition of the term."
------------------------
I agree, Holland, but I just subscribed to this list and for some reason I
expected a bunch of comments that don't support Sanders' beat status. I'm glad
that you brought Ginsberg's consideration up. I wish my thesis advisors were
as cool about using the very wide and inclusive definition of the term,
"Beat." I'm going to review my data and look for Ginsberg's statements.
Perhaps it will help me understand the realtionship more clearly.
Thanks, Drea
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:48:12 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: New Millenium Questions
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I found this wonderful list of questions in Chicago Review, Fall 97,
Also has a wonderful interview with Robert Duncan by Robert Peters who
listmemebers have heard of as a friend of Charles Plymell's (much missed
former list-member) and mine, and a great article on Jack Spicer and his
circle by former (and missed) listmember Kevin Killian and Lew
Ellingham.
This is by Paul Hoover, editor of the Norton Postmodern Anthology.
THE NEW MILLENIUM:
FIFTY STATEMENTS ON LITERATURE AND CULTURE
(AGREE OR DISAGREE)
1. The word "consumer" has replaced the word "citizen" in most forms of
discourse.
2. Traditional culture is the enemy of consumerism.
3. Media culture collaborates with consumerism to confuse and intimidate
the average literate citizen.
4. Postmodern theory was created to confuse and intimidate the average
literate citizen.
5. Avant-gardes are a necessary aspect of late capitalism.
6. Poetry has the same connection to social class that it had under
aristocratic social orders.
7. The erotic allure of narrative lies in the courtship of the author
and reader, usually involving the courtly deference of the former to
the later. The eroticism of non-narrative lies in the shared rufusal of
normal relations.
8. The mind can only conceive of uncertainty as a certainty--in other
words as an image. But images are of interest only when they
communicate an uncertainty.
9. Poems are entirely factual.
10. The list, or series, is the major organizing priciple of writing.
11. The out of sequence series is the organizing principle of most
avant-garde writing.
12. The "new" in art is always imported from another culture.
13. Annihilation is a form of flattery.
14. There is more difference between one and zero than one and one
million.
15. Poetry is a rumor told by the truth.
16. Even at their most fantastic, our thoughts are based on the world
with which we are already familiar. All metaphor, therefore, is homely,
at base.
17. In photographs, the pose confronts the camera like a camera.
18. Photographs are by nature momentary (they are slices of time),
dramatic (they are staged) and elegiac (they fade); in this they
resemble poetry.
19. Creativity is a sentimental concept.
20. The filscript is the primary literary genre.
21. Choose one: (1) The names of things have more power than the things
themselves; (2) The actuality of things is more expressive than
language; (3) things like oranges have tremendous presence, but are
invisible without their names.
22. Writers, like actors, require personae.
23. The "new" is always strangely familiar.
24. The politics of language appears first in the preposition.
25. Relativism and pluralism are forms of absolutism.
26. Irony is closer to the truth than direct statements of fact.
27 Simple things, like armies, can be understood by pointing.
28. Postmodern dispersion is a form of irony, using multiplicity to
arrive at a "new realism" But it is a form of irony that lacks irony.
29. Language poetry is a sign sung by a seme.
30. Do writer feel pain, or are they too dishonest?
31. Fame is the truest form of transcendence.
32. Thought is sexless, but it's subject matter is gendered.
33. Art is a form of social control.
34. Theory is fiction with only one character.
35. Erasure is it own reward.
36. To know the future of an art, examine the most ridiculed and
marginalized form of its current practice.
37. A good sentence is never innocent.
38. Only actors have souls.
39 Transgression is a form of postmodern worship.
40 The past is still under construction.
41. Replication of existing themes and forms is the only true realism.
42 The speed of reality is faster than the speed of attention.
43. Only poetry approaches the speed of truth.
44. All narrative aspires to the chase scene.
45. Nature fills the gaps that authors leave.
46. Dignity requires a history of suffering.
47 Avant-garde poetry is nostalgic for tradition.
48. Modernism has yet to complete its mission.
49 Postmodernism is sentimental about the future.
50. Because there is no belief, there is no millenial fervor.
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<HTML>
I found this wonderful list of questions in <I>Chicago Review, </I>Fall
97, Also has a wonderful interview with Robert Duncan by Robert Peters
who listmemebers have heard of as a friend of Charles Plymell's (much missed
former list-member) and mine, and a great article on Jack Spicer and his
circle by former (and missed) listmember Kevin Killian and Lew Ellingham.
<P>This is by Paul Hoover, editor of the Norton Postmodern Anthology.
<P>THE NEW MILLENIUM:
<BR>FIFTY STATEMENTS ON LITERATURE AND CULTURE
<BR>(AGREE OR DISAGREE)
<P>1. The word "consumer" has replaced the word "citizen" in most forms
of discourse.
<P>2. Traditional culture is the enemy of consumerism.
<P>3. Media culture collaborates with consumerism to confuse and intimidate
the average literate citizen.
<P>4. Postmodern theory was created to confuse and intimidate the average
literate citizen.
<P>5. Avant-gardes are a necessary aspect of late capitalism.
<P>6. Poetry has the same connection to social class that it had under
aristocratic social orders.
<P>7. The erotic allure of narrative lies in the courtship of the author
and reader, usually involving the courtly deference of the former
to the later. The eroticism of non-narrative lies in the shared rufusal
of normal relations.
<P>8. The mind can only conceive of uncertainty as a certainty--in other
words as an image. But images are of interest only when they communicate
an uncertainty.
<P>9. Poems are entirely factual.
<P>10. The list, or series, is the major organizing priciple of writing.
<P>11. The out of sequence series is the organizing principle of
most avant-garde writing.
<P>12. The "new" in art is always imported from another culture.
<P>13. Annihilation is a form of flattery.
<P>14. There is more difference between one and zero than one and
one million.
<P>15. Poetry is a rumor told by the truth.
<P>16. Even at their most fantastic, our thoughts are based on the
world with which we are already familiar. All metaphor, therefore,
is homely, at base.
<P>17. In photographs, the pose confronts the camera like a camera.
<P>18. Photographs are by nature momentary (they are slices of time),
dramatic (they are staged) and elegiac (they fade); in this they resemble
poetry.
<P>19. Creativity is a sentimental concept.
<P>20. The filscript is the primary literary genre.
<P>21. Choose one: (1) The names of things have more power than the
things themselves; (2) The actuality of things is more expressive than
language; (3) things like oranges have tremendous presence, but are invisible
without their names.
<P>22. Writers, like actors, require personae.
<P>23. The "new" is always strangely familiar.
<P>24. The politics of language appears first in the preposition.
<P>25. Relativism and pluralism are forms of absolutism.
<P>26. Irony is closer to the truth than direct statements of fact.
<P>27 Simple things, like armies, can be understood by pointing.
<P>28. Postmodern dispersion is a form of irony, using multiplicity to
arrive at a "new realism" But it is a form of irony that lacks irony.
<P>29. Language poetry is a sign sung by a seme.
<P>30. Do writer feel pain, or are they too dishonest?
<P>31. Fame is the truest form of transcendence.
<P>32. Thought is sexless, but it's subject matter is gendered.
<P>33. Art is a form of social control.
<P>34. Theory is fiction with only one character.
<P>35. Erasure is it own reward.
<P>36. To know the future of an art, examine the most ridiculed and
marginalized form of its current practice.
<P>37. A good sentence is never innocent.
<P>38. Only actors have souls.
<P>39 Transgression is a form of postmodern worship.
<P>40 The past is still under construction.
<P>41. Replication of existing themes and forms is the only true
realism.
<P>42 The speed of reality is faster than the speed of attention.
<P>43. Only poetry approaches the speed of truth.
<P>44. All narrative aspires to the chase scene.
<P>45. Nature fills the gaps that authors leave.
<P>46. Dignity requires a history of suffering.
<P>47 Avant-garde poetry is nostalgic for tradition.
<P>48. Modernism has yet to complete its mission.
<P>49 Postmodernism is sentimental about the future.
<P>50. Because there is no belief, there is no millenial fervor.</HTML>
--------------D0FF3FBBC83375A05B30E320--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:47:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sanders inquiry
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 30-Jan-98 7:40:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, BMXDREA@AOL.COM
writes:
<< I'm glad
that you brought Ginsberg's consideration up. >>
I have some vague recollection of Ginsberg collaborating with The Fugs back in
the very earliest Sixties. Do a web search for Tuli Kupferberg, as well as Ed
Sanders, and be sure to check out Literary Kicks for some very enlightening
links on Sanders.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:20:10 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Maggie Dharma wrote:
> yeah, more or less. I haven't felt "invited" in to his prose like I usually do
> with writers.
=== Right, whereas Kerouac is like "roll up for the magical mystery
tour", WSB is more like, "I'm gonna sit here and play with my soul. You
can watch if you want. Or don't." Reading WSB is a very voyeuristic
experience, more so than Kerouac's for some reason, even though
Kerouac's work is basically his day-to-day diary.
> he feels somewhat dated to me, out of step
> with, certainly, heterosexuality and women as well as heroin use.
=== For better or for worse, there are probably more people now leading
the WSB lifestyle than there were in the 60's. Personally, I think he's
more trenchant than ever.
> But the discussion on Beat-L lately has been very interesting and has armed me
> with ideas to try him again. So I will.
=== If I may suggest: "The Adding Machine" (a very sober collection of
essays), "My Education" (selections from his dream journals) and "Queer"
(an unflinchingly honest novel, especially for 1951)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
meditating on Japanese candy
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:47:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
I always WSB to be the archetypal criminal/outcast,someone who lives
on the fringe of society,and who is disliked by it. Yet A charecter who
follows a code of rules better than that of the society that shunned
him.
Maybe some will be thinking that this is too kind.. I would love to
hear any comments on this
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:57:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: WSB and science fiction
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If one wants see the real literary influence of WSB they should look at
the new wave science fiction writers. These included Norman
Spinrad,Micheal Moorecock.John Stadelk,and especialy cult author J.G.
Ballard.
There is a huge debt that modern science fiction owes to the beat
generation. Authors like Philip K. Dick are more similar to WSB and
Ginsberg than Asimov or Heinlein.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:58:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980130092148.00890260@pobox3.bbn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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What is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?
conceptualizing, my ass.
On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:
> Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see lit=
tle value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without conceptualizin=
g it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile discussion. To simply s=
tate that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece doesn't go very far toward =
generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to the next step, whether it =
be a personal insight or reflection on some aspect of the piece or somethin=
g more lit crit/theoretical. How has the piece influenced, say, your concep=
tion of a poetics. Something.
>=20
>=20
> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours h=
anding out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read about. :=
]
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
>=20
> Ed
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>=20
> >ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv b=
ut as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality o=
f beat lit. and
>=20
> >speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?
>=20
> >i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've bee=
en reading ginsberg for years.
>=20
> >mc
>=20
> >
>=20
> >Edward Desautels wrote:
>=20
> >
>=20
> >> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> Ed
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>=20
> >> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that
>=20
> >> >I thought was well worth sharing.
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> >Take my love, it is not true,
>=20
> >> >So let it tempt no body new;
>=20
> >> >Take my lady, she will sigh
>=20
> >> >For my bed where'er I lie;
>=20
> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>=20
> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>=20
> >> >To give to some poor poet old;
>=20
> >> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
>=20
> >> >If his age would wear my youth;
>=20
> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>=20
> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
>=20
> >> >Blow my body out of mind;
>=20
> >> >Take this heart to go with that
>=20
> >> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
>=20
> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>=20
> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> >Take the art which I bemoan
>=20
> >> >In a poem's crazy tone;
>=20
> >> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
>=20
> >> >To the starkest stick and stone;
>=20
> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>=20
> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest
>=20
> >> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
>=20
> >> >counterculture.
>=20
> >> > Maggie G.
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> >_________________________________________________________
>=20
> >> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
>=20
> >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>=20
> >> >
>=20
> >> =
=
=01=F4=D2*
>=20
> >> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
>=20
> >> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
>=20
> >> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
>=20
> >> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
>=20
> >> =
=
=01=F4=DAp
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> =
=
=01=F4=DA=A5
>=20
> >> =
=
=01=F4=DB=04
>=20
> >> =
=
=01=F4=DB=04
>=20
> >> =
=
=01=F4x8
>=20
> >
>=20
> <center>************************************************************
>=20
> <bigger>Edward Desautels
>=20
> 7 Hamilton Road
>=20
> Somerville, MA 02144
>=20
> edesaute@bbnplanet.com
>=20
> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
>=20
>=20
> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20
>=20
> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
>=20
> Jacques Rigaut
>=20
> </bigger>************************************************************</ce=
nter>
>=20
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:23:40 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
there's an article about him in an old avant garde magazine from about
1968 that might have some biographical stuff.
the dictionary of literary biography has a two part set on the beats
that should list him
you might have some luck with underground rock histories
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:27:45 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
they migh be giants quotes parts of howl some where...i should be
allowed to hang my poster ishould be allowed to think...or sumpin.....
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:29:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: some thoughts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:04 PM 1/30/98 EST, Maggie wrote:
>It's only an observation, not a conclusion, but it
>seems to me that people on this list post occasional thoughtful,
>soul-searching questions and theories that make for
>great discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get
>discussed, and someone posts original prose or poetry
>instead and that gets discussed. Remember, I'm not
>really making a judgment here.
^^^^^^^^^
>Maybe we (meaning the general population here) are not
>qualified or interested enough to make a thread last
>very long or really profit from it; I don't know,
>I really don't, I'm just saying maybe.
Hmm, according to the _Concise Oxford Dictionary_:
judgement: n. 3. Criticism; opinion, estimate; critical faculty,
discernment.
In one of them "word game" moods I guess. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:23:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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I have most everything on Sanders- and this includes all those Dictionary of
Lit articles and the fugs stuff. What I am really looking for is scholarly
criticism of his work. I have tons of trash on Sanders! Believe me folks, I
spent an entire semester on Lexis/Nexis and every other database that I have
access to and there is slim pickings on this man and his work. Not
suprisingly, most of the info I have is conflicting.
I think I'm going to have to go up to Woodstock and talk to old Ed myself. You
wouldn't believe how terrible the reviews of his work are. Just trash! One
reviewer doesn't even recognize that the name of the fictional rock group in
"Fame and Love in New York," is the famous (recently honored an celebrated)
work of Emile Zola. I struggle a lot with Ed's work and I feel very close to
his purpose, but more than anything, I pity Sanders because it seems as though
he will go unrecognized-- and I mean in a scholarly, intelligent way.
Thanks for the tips about the Asher website etc. I'll leaf through my data and
find more on the ginsberg-fug connection. I must admit I'm more interested in
Sanders' literary ventures, however. Sanders said that he considered the fugs
a literary group, and that's especially evident in the group's romantic
influences.
Drea
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:28:58 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: some thoughts
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Maggie Dharma wrote:
>
> I'm probably going to sign off the list pretty soon, not because I don't like
> it, but for other reasons that have only to do with myself and are of no
> interest to anyone. And I wanted to say something, make an observation before
> I go.
>
> I also am subscribed to the Bukowski list, and if I get one piece of mail from
> that group a week, that's a full schedule for all those geniuses and barflies.
> It's very different from this list in that regard, and good, bad or
> indifferent, when a post comes from the Buk list, it is about Bukowski and
> nothing else.
>
> It's only an observation, not a conclusion, but it seems to me that people on
> this list post occasional thoughtful, soul-searching questions and theories
> that make for great discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get
> discussed, and someone posts original prose or poetry instead and that gets
> discussed. Remember, I'm not really making a judgment here.
>
> Maybe we (meaning the general population here) are not qualified or interested
> enough to make a thread last very long or really profit from it; I don't know,
> I really don't, I'm just saying maybe. I know I didn't comment a bunch of
> times because I didn't know what to say, but I was hoping really hard someone
> else would comment, and I'd learn something. Then when I had some
> information/knowledge, I did post it, and hope people learned from that and
> enjoyed it.
>
> Anyway, it's quality, not quantity, that I've enjoyed here, and I'll
> undoubtedly sign up again eventually (I'm not gone yet, though, so don't give
> away my seat!).
>
> Maggie
melanie is singing "there's a chance peace will come in your life please
buy one" as i meet your message. i'm totally ignorant of this Buk the
puke dude. "there's nothing nicer than having to sing an unnecessary
peace song".
i will say that the variety is the spice of life. i'm a member of the
Hesse and Burke listserves and i find it dreadful that the energy level
for discussions concerning folks so charged in their interior landscapes
comes down to dry meanderings once a month whether the moon is full or
not.
it sounds as though there is room in the universe for different types of
listserves and in this one i wish that there were more scholarly threads
for me to learn from in addition to the banter and chatter which i'm
often at the centre of (prep at end of sentence so shoot me!).
i'd suggest you consider shifting to digest for a bit to stay connected
and yet not in the thick. i do that from time to time. and if you do
leave we'll all have to sing "Goodnight Irene" with a little
orchestration and five part harmony and the like.
Bukowski i've heard hates being associated with the term beat (as many
of the Beats rejected the label as labeling was anathema). If we could
stipulate that he is nearly quasi-Beat could you slide him within the
pantheon for me and others.
thanks in advance.
gypsy davey
p.s. i'm tempted to join the Bukowski list just to see how long it
takes for me to get kicked off!!!!! If you see Bukowski on the
listserve shoot him with an arrow in the forehead.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:30:35 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: blaster
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Aeronwy Thomas wrote:
>
> and don't forget ice-cream/coffee blasters
and Zoroasterblasters and Zarathustra boosters.
dbr
p.s. i know "scope!" couldn't resist
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:03:22 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980127184547.006a78a4@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS vocals:Laurie Anderson
Paradise
Is exactly like
Where you are right now
Only much much
Better.
I saw this guy on the train
And he seemed to have gotten stuck
In one of those abstract trances.
And he was going: "Ugh...Ugh...Ugh..."
And Fred said:
"I think he's in some kind of pain.
I think it's a pain cry."
And I said: "Pain cry?
Then language is a virus."
Language! It's a virus!
Language! It's a virus!
Well I was talking to a friend
And I was saying:
I wanted you.
And I was looking for you.
but I couldn't find you. I couldn't find you.
And he said: Hey!
Are you talking to me?
Or are you just practicing
For one of those performances of yours?
Huh?
Language! It's a virus!
Language! It's a virus!
He said: I had to write that letter to your mother.
And I had to tell the judge that it was you.
And I had to sell the car and go to Florida.
Because that's just my way of saying It's a charm.
That I love you. And I It's a job.
Had to call you at the crack of down
Why?
And list the times that I've been wrong.
Cause that's just my way of saying
That I'm sorry.
It's a job.
Language! It's a virus!
Language! It's a virus!
Paradise
Is exactly like
Where you are right now
Only much much It's a shipwreck,
Better. It's a job.
You know? I don't believe there's such
a thing as TV. I mean --
They just keep showing you
The same pictures over and over.
And when they talk they just make sounds
That more or less synch up
With their lips.
That's what I think!
Language! It's a virus!
Language! It's a virus!
Language! It's a virus!
Well I dreamed there was an island
That rose up from the sea
And everybody on the island
Was somebody from TV.
And there was a beautiful view
But nobody could see.
Cause everybody on the island
Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!
Look at me! Look at me!
Because they all lived on an island
That rose up from the sea
And everybody on the island
Was somebody from the TV.
And there was a beutiful view
But nobody could see.
Cause everybody on the island
Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!
Look at me! Why?
Paradise is exactly like
Where you are right now
Only much much better.
"LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS
FROM OUTER SPACE."
-- William S. Burroughs
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:07:26 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"to live outside the law you must be honest" -bob dylan
Mark Ricard wrote:
> I always WSB to be the archetypal criminal/outcast,someone who lives
> on the fringe of society,and who is disliked by it. Yet A charecter who
> follows a code of rules better than that of the society that shunned
> him.
>
> Maybe some will be thinking that this is too kind.. I would love to
> hear any comments on this
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:21:49 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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rinaldo, do you know what album/tape/CD this is from?
mc
Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS vocals:Laurie Anderson
>
> Paradise
> Is exactly like
> Where you are right now
> Only much much
> Better.
>
> I saw this guy on the train
> And he seemed to have gotten stuck
> In one of those abstract trances.
> And he was going: "Ugh...Ugh...Ugh..."
>
> And Fred said:
> "I think he's in some kind of pain.
> I think it's a pain cry."
> And I said: "Pain cry?
> Then language is a virus."
>
> Language! It's a virus!
> Language! It's a virus!
>
> Well I was talking to a friend
> And I was saying:
> I wanted you.
> And I was looking for you.
> but I couldn't find you. I couldn't find you.
> And he said: Hey!
> Are you talking to me?
> Or are you just practicing
> For one of those performances of yours?
> Huh?
>
> Language! It's a virus!
> Language! It's a virus!
>
> He said: I had to write that letter to your mother.
> And I had to tell the judge that it was you.
> And I had to sell the car and go to Florida.
> Because that's just my way of saying It's a charm.
> That I love you. And I It's a job.
> Had to call you at the crack of down
> Why?
> And list the times that I've been wrong.
> Cause that's just my way of saying
> That I'm sorry.
> It's a job.
>
> Language! It's a virus!
> Language! It's a virus!
>
> Paradise
> Is exactly like
> Where you are right now
> Only much much It's a shipwreck,
> Better. It's a job.
>
> You know? I don't believe there's such
> a thing as TV. I mean --
> They just keep showing you
> The same pictures over and over.
> And when they talk they just make sounds
> That more or less synch up
> With their lips.
> That's what I think!
>
> Language! It's a virus!
> Language! It's a virus!
> Language! It's a virus!
>
> Well I dreamed there was an island
> That rose up from the sea
> And everybody on the island
> Was somebody from TV.
> And there was a beautiful view
> But nobody could see.
> Cause everybody on the island
> Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!
> Look at me! Look at me!
>
> Because they all lived on an island
> That rose up from the sea
> And everybody on the island
> Was somebody from the TV.
> And there was a beutiful view
> But nobody could see.
> Cause everybody on the island
> Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!
> Look at me! Why?
>
> Paradise is exactly like
> Where you are right now
> Only much much better.
>
> "LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS
> FROM OUTER SPACE."
> -- William S. Burroughs
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:39:12 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
Reply to message from edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM of Fri, 30 Jan
>
>Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see little=
> value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without conceptualizing it=
> in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile discussion. To simply state=
> that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece doesn't go very far toward=
> generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to the next step, whether it=
> be a personal insight or reflection on some aspect of the piece or=
> something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the piece influenced, say,=
> your conception of a poetics. Something.
There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with just sharing a Beat poem for
sharing's sakes to me. As much as this list thrives on academic
discussions, I'm sure we all need an occasional break. I thought the poem
was gorgeous, & was esp. struck by the rhyme scheme, so different
from his later poems! How people change...
Diane.
>
>
>As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours=
> handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read about.=
> :]
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Ed
>
>
>
>
>At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv but=
> as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality of=
> beat lit. and
>
>>speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?
>
>>i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've beeen=
> reading ginsberg for years.
>
>>mc
>
>>
>
>>Edward Desautels wrote:
>
>>
>
>>> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>
>>>
>
>>> Ed
>
>>>
>
>>> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that
>
>>> >I thought was well worth sharing.
>
>>> >
>
>>> >
>
>>> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>
>>> >
>
>>> >Take my love, it is not true,
>
>>> >So let it tempt no body new;
>
>>> >Take my lady, she will sigh
>
>>> >For my bed where'er I lie;
>
>>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>> > But leave my bones alone.
>
>>> >
>
>>> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>
>>> >To give to some poor poet old;
>
>>> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
>
>>> >If his age would wear my youth;
>
>>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>> > But leave my bones alone.
>
>>> >
>
>>> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
>
>>> >Blow my body out of mind;
>
>>> >Take this heart to go with that
>
>>> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
>
>>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>> > But leave my bones alone.
>
>>> >
>
>>> >Take the art which I bemoan
>
>>> >In a poem's crazy tone;
>
>>> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
>
>>> >To the starkest stick and stone;
>
>>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>> > But leave my bones alone.
>
>>> >
>
>>> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest
>
>>> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
>
>>> >counterculture.
>
>>> > Maggie G.
>
>>> >
>
>>> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>
>>> >
>
>>> >
>
>>> >
>
>>> >_________________________________________________________
>
>>> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
>
>>> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>>> >
>
>>> =
> =
> =01=F4=D2*
>
>>> =
> =
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>> =
> =
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>> =
> =
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>> =
> =
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>> =
> =
> =01=F4=DAp
>
>>>
>
>>> =
> =
> =01=F4=DA=A5
>
>>> =
> =
> =01=F4=DB=04
>
>>> =
> =
> =01=F4=DB=04
>
>>> =
> =
> =01=F4x8
>
>>
>
><center>************************************************************
>
><bigger>Edward Desautels
>
>7 Hamilton Road
>
>Somerville, MA 02144
>
>edesaute@bbnplanet.com
>
>http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
>
>
>"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20
>
>I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
>
>Jacques Rigaut
>
></bigger>************************************************************</cente=
>r>
>
>
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:39:09 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: some thoughts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 30-Jan-98 9:31:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cake@IONLINE.NET writes:
<< Remember, I'm not
>really making a judgment here.
Hmm, according to the _Concise Oxford Dictionary_:
judgement: n. 3. Criticism; opinion, estimate; critical faculty,
discernment.
In one of them "word game" moods I guess. . .
Mike >>
.........................................................................
I wrote "judgment," not "judgement," Mike.
In one of them "word spelling right" moods, I guess (imagine a good-natured
grin here)...
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:45:30 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)
Reply to message from jholland@ICLUB.ORG of Fri, 30 Jan
>
>Bob Lewis wrote:
>
>> oh sorry-
>> they might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.
>
>
>=== Actually, a lot of their lyrics are good poetry. I could see "I
>Palindrome I" coming from WSB, "Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love" coming
>from Kerouac, "Lie Still, Little Bottle" from Ferlinghetti, and "Your
>Racist Friend" from Ginsberg. And don't forget "Road Movie To Berlin",
>"Birdhouse in Your Soul", etc., etc., the list goes on.
what about their song that alludes to Howl? I don't remeber what it's
called, but it starts off with the line about teh best minds of their
generation...it's lsited on Levi's Literary Kicks page somewehre.
Diane.
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
>digging on Blind Willie McTell
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:44:44 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 30-Jan-98 10:30:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
BMXDREA@AOL.COM writes:
<< What I am really looking for is scholarly
criticism of his work. >>
oh, sorry, Andrea... I lost the focus of your thread.
I guess I probably shouldn't start one about the artificiality of the
scholarly community to recognize an artist until a scholarly work or criticism
is completed on him/her.
still, some great art languishes in obscurity until some ph. D. candidate does
a dissertation and publishes it...
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:08:46 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mark Ricard wrote:
>
> I always WSB to be the archetypal criminal/outcast,someone who lives
> on the fringe of society,and who is disliked by it.
=== Well, obviously. He was a heroin addict, a pedophile, and a writer
of harsh reality. This definitely qualifies him as an outcast on the
fringe of society. Being openly gay in the repressive 1950's didn't hurt
either. Neither did shooting Joan.
> Yet A charecter who
> follows a code of rules better than that of the society that shunned
> him.
=== WSB didn't always live up to his own notion of the "Johnsons", but
he did better than any of us probably ever will.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
drinking Amaretto for Breakfast
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:52:36 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: some thoughts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 31-Jan-98 1:32:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, race@MIDUSA.NET
writes:
<<
i'd suggest you consider shifting to digest for a bit to stay connected
and yet not in the thick. i do that from time to time. and if you do
leave we'll all have to sing "Goodnight Irene" with a little
>>
not a bad idea, david. and how did you know my real name is Irene? Oh, i
probably told you. That's my problem. I talk too much. I tell too much.
It's not Beat-L; it's me (that's what I always say when I break up with
someone)...
Take nothing seriously. It's just life.
MD
ps: I've never identified Bukowski as Beat. to me, he always seemed to
specialize in being a big old embittered drunk, maybe grandaddy of "The Beer
Generation" or "Hooch-oo-mian." But not Beat, not to me.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:10:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
I have two comments about this: 1. Does sex with teenage boys make you a
pedophile? Not in my book it doesn't.,2. What was WSB's personal
reaction to Joan's death? How much guilt diid he feel?Did he love her?
How diid this affect his life?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:17:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: blaster
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Crap Blaster
At 09:13 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Blaster
>
>Map blaster
>Sound blaster
>Master blaster
>Bass blaster
>Cap blaster
>Disaster blaster
>No blaster
>Portland Blaster
>Mortar blaster
>Clinton blaster
>Blaster blaster
>Blaster blaster blaster
>Jazz blaster
>Rocket blaster
>Blast blaster
>Blust blaster.
>Blaster
>Blast.
>
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:29:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: some thoughts
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Bukoski is funnier than any of the other beat writers,if you consider
him one. He is in the beat reader by viking,so someone considers him
one. I loved the Postoffice. Yes, he is quite a bitter angry man.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:46:33 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: bukowski
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> Bukowski i've heard hates being associated with the term beat
=== So did Kerouac himself. But we call him Beat anyway.
I call Bukowski a beat writer when I'm in the presence of friends and
comrades who know what I'm talking about. In mixed company, however, I
keep my lip zipped lest I elicit convoluted arguments from others on
just exactly what the one true verifiable definition of "Beat" is, blah
blah blah, which means nothing to me. I'll call Edna St.Vincent Millay a
Beat if it behooves me. And I love to be behooved.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
going mountain climbing today
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:34:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
Ed
At 11:58 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>What is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?
>conceptualizing, my ass.
>
>On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:
>
>> Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see
little value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without
conceptualizing it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile
discussion. To simply state that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece
doesn't go very far toward generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to
the next step, whether it be a personal insight or reflection on some
aspect of the piece or something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the
piece influenced, say, your conception of a poetics. Something.
>>=20
>>=20
>> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours
handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read about.=
:]
>>=20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>>=20
>> Ed
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>=20
>> >ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv
but as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality
of beat lit. and
>>=20
>> >speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?
>>=20
>> >i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've
beeen reading ginsberg for years.
>>=20
>> >mc
>>=20
>> >
>>=20
>> >Edward Desautels wrote:
>>=20
>> >
>>=20
>> >> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>>=20
>> >>
>>=20
>> >> Ed
>>=20
>> >>
>>=20
>> >> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>=20
>> >> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that
>>=20
>> >> >I thought was well worth sharing.
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >> >Take my love, it is not true,
>>=20
>> >> >So let it tempt no body new;
>>=20
>> >> >Take my lady, she will sigh
>>=20
>> >> >For my bed where'er I lie;
>>=20
>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>>=20
>> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>>=20
>> >> >To give to some poor poet old;
>>=20
>> >> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
>>=20
>> >> >If his age would wear my youth;
>>=20
>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>>=20
>> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
>>=20
>> >> >Blow my body out of mind;
>>=20
>> >> >Take this heart to go with that
>>=20
>> >> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
>>=20
>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>>=20
>> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >> >Take the art which I bemoan
>>=20
>> >> >In a poem's crazy tone;
>>=20
>> >> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
>>=20
>> >> >To the starkest stick and stone;
>>=20
>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>>=20
>> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest
>>=20
>> >> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
>>=20
>> >> >counterculture.
>>=20
>> >> > Maggie G.
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >> >_________________________________________________________
>>=20
>> >> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>=20
>> >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>=20
>> >> >
>>=20
>> >>
=01=F4=D2*
>>=20
>> >>
=01=F4=DA0
>>=20
>> >>
=01=F4=DA0
>>=20
>> >>
=01=F4=DA0
>>=20
>> >>
=01=F4=DA0
>>=20
>> >>
=01=F4=DAp
>>=20
>> >>
>>=20
>> >>
=01=F4=DA=A5
>>=20
>> >>
=01=F4=DB=04
>>=20
>> >>
=01=F4=DB=04
>>=20
>> >>
=01=F4x8
>>=20
>> >
>>=20
>> <center>************************************************************
>>=20
>> <bigger>Edward Desautels
>>=20
>> 7 Hamilton Road
>>=20
>> Somerville, MA 02144
>>=20
>> edesaute@bbnplanet.com
>>=20
>> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
>>=20
>>=20
>> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20
>>=20
>> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
>>=20
>> Jacques Rigaut
>>=20
>>
</bigger>************************************************************</cente=
r>
>>=20
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:51:57 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
well, andria, it looks like you're the one destined to write that long
erudite piece you've been looking for, huh?
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:58:26 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: some thoughts
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> At 10:04 PM 1/30/98 EST, Maggie wrote:
>
> >It's only an observation, not a conclusion, but it
> >seems to me that people on this list post occasional thoughtful,
> >soul-searching questions and theories that make for
> >great discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get
> >discussed, and someone posts original prose or poetry
> >instead and that gets discussed. Remember, I'm not
> >really making a judgment here.
> ^^^^^^^^^
> >Maybe we (meaning the general population here) are not
> >qualified or interested enough to make a thread last
> >very long or really profit from it; I don't know,
> >I really don't, I'm just saying maybe.
>
> Hmm, according to the _Concise Oxford Dictionary_:
>
> judgement: n. 3. Criticism; opinion, estimate; critical faculty,
> discernment.
>
> In one of them "word game" moods I guess. . .
>
> Mike
it seems the critical question is whether judgement is to precede or
follow "Understanding".
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:01:44 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
>
> Cathy Wilkie wrote:
> >
> > thanks to all involved in this discussion--it makes burroughs not so
> > scary to me anymore...
>
> and Maggie Dharma wrote:
>
> > You all have given me a desire
> > to read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!
>
> === Cathy, Maggie, and others who have expressed similar views of WSB:
> what is it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'? I'm just curious.
> Is it the horrific imagery in his 60's work, or the man himself? I can't
> recommend highly enough a book called "Literary Outlaw" by Ted Morgan,
> the greatest WSB biography there is. It does much to dispel the myth of
> WSB as a nihilist, sadist, and generally unlikable person.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
> listening to Lester Young, 1944 stuff
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I've read most of Lit Outlaw. When you say the best bio out there, what
is the competition. Anybody?
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:09:10 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: bukowski
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
>> Bukowski i've heard hates being associated with the term beat
>
>
>=== So did Kerouac himself.
Untrue. Inaccurate.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:04:04 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)
In-Reply-To: <199801311424.JAA22975@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
marie writes:
>rinaldo, do you know what album/tape/CD this is from?
>mc
>
ciao marie,
it's from the CD: Home Of The Brave
Jimmy Bralower: drums
Nile Rodgers: guitars
Laurie Anderson: Vocals, Synclavier
Robert Arron: sax
Crowd: Nile Rodgers, Laurie Anderson, Tom Durack, Knut Bohn,
Back-up Vocals: Curtis King, Frank Simms, Diane Garisto,
Tawatha agee, Brenda White-King
buon sabato a te e a tutti gli amici,
rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:16:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:34 AM 1/31/98 -0500, Ed wrote:
>Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
"The vanity of others offends our taste only when it
offends our vanity." - Friedrich Neitzsche
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:16:27 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
>Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
>
>Ed
Is that your opinion, Ed?
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:14:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthew Zivot <mzivot@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Organization: The George Washington University
Subject: Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Diane M. Homza wrote:
> Reply to message from jholland@ICLUB.ORG of Fri, 30 Jan
> >
> >Bob Lewis wrote:
> >
> >> oh sorry-
> >> they might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.
> >
> >
> >=== Actually, a lot of their lyrics are good poetry. I could see "I
> >Palindrome I" coming from WSB, "Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love" coming
> >from Kerouac, "Lie Still, Little Bottle" from Ferlinghetti, and "Your
> >Racist Friend" from Ginsberg. And don't forget "Road Movie To Berlin",
> >"Birdhouse in Your Soul", etc., etc., the list goes on.
>
> what about their song that alludes to Howl? I don't remeber what it's
> called, but it starts off with the line about teh best minds of their
> generation...it's lsited on Levi's Literary Kicks page somewehre.
>
> Diane.
>
> >
> >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> >Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
> >digging on Blind Willie McTell
> >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> >
> >
>
> --
> "This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
> --Jack Kerouac
> Diane Marie Homza
> ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
I believe its "I should be allowed to think" off the John Henry album.
Much off beat philosophy was about going where the mind took you, but I'm
still not sure if tmbg should be discussed here.
--
Matthew Zivot
************************************************************
"I think all heroic deeds were conceiv'd in the open air, and all free
poems also,
I think I can stop here myself and do miracles." - Walt Whitman
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:23:26 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
In-Reply-To: <bcb08f9b.34d2c354@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Andrea Moore wrote:
(...)
>I must admit I'm more interested in
>Sanders' literary ventures, however. Sanders said that he considered the fugs
>a literary group, and that's especially evident in the group's romantic
>influences.
>
>Drea
>
ED SANDERS / For Marilyn Monroe, August 5, 1962
Marilin is dead sultry fire sucked back to the brazier
heart gone endless blotted in the universe
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:30:33 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: some thoughts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:39 AM 1/31/98 EST, Maggie wrote:
>I wrote "judgment," not "judgement," Mike.
>
>In one of them "word spelling right" moods, I guess (imagine a
>good-natured grin here)...
Ahh, from the Old Testament abbreviation of "Judges"
spelling. Etymologically speaking/spelling.
Mike {;^>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:35:44 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: bukowski and Thom Gunn
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In a message dated 31-Jan-98 9:10:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU writes:
<< Untrue. Inaccurate. >>
On which count, Tim? Bukowski or Kerouac? I agree that Kerouac didn't hate
being associated with or thought of as a Beat, but bristled against the
pejorative "Beatnik" label. I'm not a big Bukowski scholar; mostly I just read
his poetry, which moves me, but I've never thought of him as a Beat, largely
because I don't see him allying himself with any group, except the Nation of
Drunkards. I could be wrong.
This brings me to another poet of the 50s who rejected labeling, but is
obviously seminal to Beats and hippies: Thom Gunn. People labeled him Beat as
well as ascribing to him some high order in gay literature. Out of respect for
him, I don't label him at all, but here's a poem he wrote in 1957, a Hell's
Angels sketch...
ON THE MOVE
'Man, you gotta Go.'
The blue jay scuffling in the bushes follows
Some hidden purpose, and the gust of birds
That spurts across the field, the wheeling swallows,
Have nested in the trees and undergrowth.
Seeking their instinct, or their poise, or both,
One moves with an uncertain violence
Under the dust thrown by a baffled sense
Or the dull thunder of approximate words.
On motorcycles, up the road, they come;
Small, black, as flies hang in heat, the Boys,
Until the distance throws them forth, their hum
Bulges to thunder held by calf and thigh.
In goggles, donned impersonality,
In gleaming jackets trophied with the dust,
They strap in doubt--by hiding it, robust--
And almost hear a meaning in their noise.
Exact conclusion of their hardiness
Has no shape yet, but from known whereabouts
They ride, direction where the tires press.
They scare a flight of birds across the field:
Much that is natural, to the will must yield.
Men manufacture both machine and soul,
And use what they imperfectly control
To dare a future from the taken routes
It is a part solution, after all.
One is not necessarily discord
On earth; or damned because, half animal,
One lacks direct instinct, because one wakes
Afloat on movement, then divides and breaks.
One joins the movement in a valueless world,
Choosing it, till, both hurler and the hurled,
One moves as well, always toward, toward.
A minute holds them, who have come to go:
The self-defined, astride the created will
They burst away; the towns they travel through
Are home for neither bird nor holiness,
For birds and saints complete their purposes.
At worst, one is in motion; and at best,
Reaching no absolute, in which to rest,
One is always nearer by not keeping still.
....................................
It just occurred to me I do Gunn a disservice by calling him a "poet of the
50s." He's still very much vital, alive and publishing in the 90s. I relate
this to Beat because of Kerouac's love for Brando and "The Wild One," and that
sense of needing to hit the road, to go, and go, and go (John Clellon Holmes).
And somehow I feel he's cut from the same cloth as Whitman, and, in an odd
way, even Thoreau.
All Beat, All the Time....
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:39:35 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 31-Jan-98 9:27:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mzivot@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU writes:
<< Matthew Zivot
************************************************************
"I think all heroic deeds were conceiv'd in the open air, and all free
poems also, I think I can stop here myself and do miracles." - Walt Whitman
>>
Nice, unintended dovetail, as our posts crossed in cyberspace... this fits
that Gunn thing I sent.
Great signature, Matthew.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:58:44 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: bukowski and Thom Gunn
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>In a message dated 31-Jan-98 9:10:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU writes:
>
><< Untrue. Inaccurate. >>
>
>On which count, Tim? Bukowski or Kerouac? I agree that Kerouac didn't hate
>being associated with or thought of as a Beat, but bristled against the
>pejorative "Beatnik" label.
The Kerouac part. Yes, what you wrote above is what I meant.
On the Road was called The Beat Generation for a long time. The movie Pull
My Daisy was one act of a play he wrote called the Beat Generation. After
On the Road became popular he made the recording Poetry for the Beat
Generation. He participated in a seminar on whether or not there was a
beat generation with his position being of course there is.
It was a good schtick within the literay book world that helped Kerouac and
Ginsberg in their quests to be published and have notereity.
Kerouac later expressed his dismay at how his creation became twisted to
mean different things. This is when he began saying beat came from
beatific.
He disliked beatnik (as you said) and "beat insurrection" and those sort of
themes that the soon to be hippies actually began to use and embrace (it is
always sad and ironic how the media distortion is embraced by those who
want to join the "movement"). Ed Saunders would be a perfect example of
the sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:10:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980131110322.006e2030@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Wow! I really liked this. It seemed to have a rythym that flowed nice and
easy. Is this a song or what?
On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS vocals:Laurie Anderson
>
> Paradise
> Is exactly like
> Where you are right now
> Only much much
> Better.
>
> I saw this guy on the train
> And he seemed to have gotten stuck
> In one of those abstract trances.
> And he was going: "Ugh...Ugh...Ugh..."
>
> And Fred said:
> "I think he's in some kind of pain.
> I think it's a pain cry."
> And I said: "Pain cry?
> Then language is a virus."
>
> Language! It's a virus!
> Language! It's a virus!
>
> Well I was talking to a friend
> And I was saying:
> I wanted you.
> And I was looking for you.
> but I couldn't find you. I couldn't find you.
> And he said: Hey!
> Are you talking to me?
> Or are you just practicing
> For one of those performances of yours?
> Huh?
>
> Language! It's a virus!
> Language! It's a virus!
>
> He said: I had to write that letter to your mother.
> And I had to tell the judge that it was you.
> And I had to sell the car and go to Florida.
> Because that's just my way of saying It's a charm.
> That I love you. And I It's a job.
> Had to call you at the crack of down
> Why?
> And list the times that I've been wrong.
> Cause that's just my way of saying
> That I'm sorry.
> It's a job.
>
> Language! It's a virus!
> Language! It's a virus!
>
> Paradise
> Is exactly like
> Where you are right now
> Only much much It's a shipwreck,
> Better. It's a job.
>
> You know? I don't believe there's such
> a thing as TV. I mean --
> They just keep showing you
> The same pictures over and over.
> And when they talk they just make sounds
> That more or less synch up
> With their lips.
> That's what I think!
>
> Language! It's a virus!
> Language! It's a virus!
> Language! It's a virus!
>
> Well I dreamed there was an island
> That rose up from the sea
> And everybody on the island
> Was somebody from TV.
> And there was a beautiful view
> But nobody could see.
> Cause everybody on the island
> Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!
> Look at me! Look at me!
>
> Because they all lived on an island
> That rose up from the sea
> And everybody on the island
> Was somebody from the TV.
> And there was a beutiful view
> But nobody could see.
> Cause everybody on the island
> Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!
> Look at me! Why?
>
> Paradise is exactly like
> Where you are right now
> Only much much better.
>
> "LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS
> FROM OUTER SPACE."
> -- William S. Burroughs
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:44:32 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Kerouac's disenchantment with 'Beat'
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> >David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> >
> >> Bukowski i've heard hates being associated with the term beat
> >
> >
> >=== So did Kerouac himself.
>
> Untrue. Inaccurate.
=== By the very end of Kerouac's life, I assure you he wanted no part of
the "Beat" term and publicly bemoaned his partial responsibilty for the
'counter-culture' it spawned. He was drifting away from buddhism and
relapsing back into catholicism, and made public statements supporting
the Vietnam war and right-wingers like William Buckley. It's sad, but
true. Jack was a walking nervous breakdown at this time, however, and
its not fair to judge him by the things he said or did towards the end.
All of this is pretty well known and it's out there if anyone wants to
look it up.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland - Berea KY
back from creepin' in the woods
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:31:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Exciting News
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I nearly had a heart attack today when I picked up a used copy of AG's
Journals:Mid-Fifties for 12 dollars and after I payed for it, the guy told
me that it was a first edition. I flipped! I couldnt believe my luck! It
perfectly complements my first edition of Collected Works:1947-1980. Im so
verklempt!
I was so excited I call my mother long distance from a payphone to tell
her. :)
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:50:14 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Edward Desautels wrote:
>
> Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
>
=== Some, however, stink more than others.
=-=-=-=-=
JSH
kentucky
=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:37:22 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwy Thomas <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Exciting News
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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wow, nancy, congrats. i can imagine how thrilled i would be to get something
like that. =)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:41:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:34 AM 1/31/98 -0500, Ed wrote:
>
>Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
This next piece was taken from:
_Trip Trap_ by Jack Kerouac, Albert Saijo, and Lew Welch.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Roosevelt
had a dirty asshole
so we had
Pearl Harbor
Hitler had a dirty ass
so we had Buchenwald
Senator McCarthy
had a dirty asshole
& he died
Not one cowboy
in Texas
has a clean asshole
But there is one
in Las Vegas
Alexander Pope
had a dirty asshole
T S Eliot prays for
the dirty asshole
T S Eliot's fog
had a dirty asshole
The last time I saw Paris
I had a dirty asshole
Pres Eisenhower
plays golf
with a dirty asshole
Not insult intended to
his partner
All we mean is,
wash your asshole
after you shit,
with water, clean,
and you'll feel good
& clean
Bishop Sheean's
wild look
comes from a dirty
asshole
Everybody in America
is walking around
with a dirty asshole
A little bit of water
goes a long way
All of Stendhal
can be understood
All of Stendhal
results
>From a dirty asshole.
Santa Claus
has a dirty asshole
Philip Lamantia
could be taught
to cleanse his asshole
I have no hope
for the Senators
or the Senatrix
Nor was Cleopatra clean
Nor Vercingetorix
No Roman pickaninny
outhoused wide.
Thou cleaneth
where food entereth
Why not attend the port
of the leavings
All holes in the body
Shd be clean with water
All holes baptized
Holily
Holy like li li lock
All holes should be baptized
because all hole are holy
I am tired
of this talk of holes
For holes is where
my skin
is not
'Shit, Snyder,
you know what
they do in
those monestaries
--you'll come back
with your asshole
stretched
the size
of a wagon
tire'
said Rexroth
Thats a beautiful poem
--I mean fire
I am not bounded
by this bag of skin
nor bones skew me
'I love Jesus'
says the sign
Are we still on holes?
Let our assholes be clean
as the hole in the donut.
As the doors to our temple
Which sports
One turning shoe
The asshole of Dixie
is dirty
Dixie has a dirty asshole
Dulles died
with a dirty asshole
& went to Heaven
though
(innocent)
And I say
a great vision
of Little Orphan Annie
eyes sightless as an asshole
MacArthur returned
to Manila
with a dirty asshole
Hirohito rides his
white
horse
with a dirty asshole
Hirohito's white horse
has a dirty asshole
Napolean on Elba
not clean
The final asshole line
is
Wash Thyself
We shoulda got
Shirley Temple
in there
Oh that man
that arrests us
Will have
a dirty asshole
That's an endless thing
Let's talk about shacks in Texas
And the birds
on seaweed
wheat
plains"
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:42:58 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwy Thomas <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's disenchantment with 'Beat'
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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my impression, from reading ann charters' profiles and others, that jack
enjoyed being right in the thick of the beat movement. what he was upset
abouyt seemed to be the way people judged his work. i think jack knew that the
beat movement would eventually pass, but he wanted his work to be regarded as
something more than just a fad. i'm not a scholar, just a layperson, so
correct me if i'm wrong, anyone! but i always thought that he wanted his work
to be judged by separate standards, and maybe to some extent himself. that may
be true. i read somewhere that jack was frustrated with the way the press
jumped on him to be the leader of the beat movement; that he hadn't even
invented it himself, but rather had heard it from someone on the streets on
nyc.
aeronwy
ps - whoa, my first significant post. whoo-ee =)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:09:09 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
> Wow! I really liked this. It seemed to have a rythym that flowed nice and
> easy. Is this a song or what?
=== It's a song from Laurie Anderson's "Home of The Brave" album, one of
three albums of hers that feature WSB.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
J.S.Holland....KY
pondering ineffables
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:06:44 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Tom Wolfe
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
so why was it that you can't go home again? a jayhawk mentor used to
quote him and all these other folks to me. some sunk in i guess.
listening to Bruce Springsteen sing Beat Woody guthrie's song "I Ain't
Got No Home In this World Anymore".
Do the Discipline DE sideways,
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:25:42 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: bukowski and Thom Gunn
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> On the Road was called The Beat Generation for a long time. The movie Pull
> My Daisy was one act of a play he wrote called the Beat Generation. After
> On the Road became popular he made the recording Poetry for the Beat
> Generation. He participated in a seminar on whether or not there was a
> beat generation with his position being of course there is.
=== No one is disputing that Kerouac was a pioneer of the term, or that
he supported the term at one time. At the end of his life, however, he
did an ideological u-turn.
> Kerouac later expressed his dismay at how his creation became twisted to
> mean different things.
=== Well, yes and no. He was dismayed, but he never considered Beat "his
creation". WSB is at the heart of Beat and yet has very little in common
with Kerouac.
> Ed Saunders would be a perfect example of
> the sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like.
=== Assuming you mean Ed Sanders, how so? Wherein lies his 'usurption'??
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland - the hills of KY
cursing a defective pencil sharpener
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:11:55 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 31-Jan-98 11:08:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
race@MIDUSA.NET writes:
<< so why was it that you can't go home again? a jayhawk mentor used to
quote him and all these other folks to me. some sunk in i guess.
>>
It's an important distinction, Thomas (Look Homeward, Angel) and Tom (Electric
Kool-Aid Acid Machine) Wolfe.
Look Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City," explains
everything about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book speak for
itself.
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:20:33 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 1/31/98 8:11:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, bonmark@WEBTV.NET
writes:
> 1. Does sex with teenage boys make you a
> pedophile? Not in my book it doesn't
Is your book a dictionary? If not, get one you idiot.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:20:22 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maggie Dharma wrote:
>
> In a message dated 31-Jan-98 11:08:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> race@MIDUSA.NET writes:
>
> << so why was it that you can't go home again? a jayhawk mentor used to
> quote him and all these other folks to me. some sunk in i guess.
> >>
>
> It's an important distinction, Thomas (Look Homeward, Angel) and Tom (Electric
> Kool-Aid Acid Machine) Wolfe.
>
> Look Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City," explains
> everything about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book speak for
> itself.
>
> MD
so you can only go home again if you bring the electric kool-aid with
ya?????
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:45:37 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exciting News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980131132914.11814A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> I nearly had a heart attack today when I picked up a used copy of AG's
> Journals:Mid-Fifties for 12 dollars and after I payed for it, the guy told
> me that it was a first edition. I flipped! I couldnt believe my luck! It
> perfectly complements my first edition of Collected Works:1947-1980. Im so
> verklempt!
Don't want to put a damper on your excitement, but I picked up the
same book, first-edition hardback, brand-new, in the summer of '96 for
$7. It was so cheap because this edition has been remaindered. Which
means it's unlikely ever to have much resale value on the used book
market. (Of course, that's still a good deal, considering that the
original cover price was $27.50)
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:11:20 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
mr desautels,
it is coming to my awareness that you may have come to the wrong list. i=
believe
the monty python list would be more appropriate a venue for your one line=
rs: i
would recommend either the arguement clinic, or, perhaps more aptly, the =
verbal
abuse department.
sincerely,
mc
Edward Desautels wrote:
> Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
>
> Ed
>
> At 11:58 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >What is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?
> >conceptualizing, my ass.
> >
> >On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:
> >
> >> Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I se=
e
> little value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without
> conceptualizing it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile
> discussion. To simply state that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece
> doesn't go very far toward generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Tak=
e to
> the next step, whether it be a personal insight or reflection on some
> aspect of the piece or something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the
> piece influenced, say, your conception of a poetics. Something.
> >>
> >>
> >> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four ho=
urs
> handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read abo=
ut. :]
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Ed
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
> >>
> >> >ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list s=
erv
> but as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of total=
ity
> of beat lit. and
> >>
> >> >speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?
> >>
> >> >i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i'v=
e
> beeen reading ginsberg for years.
> >>
> >> >mc
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >Edward Desautels wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> Ed
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >>
> >> >> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) t=
hat
> >>
> >> >> >I thought was well worth sharing.
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> >Take my love, it is not true,
> >>
> >> >> >So let it tempt no body new;
> >>
> >> >> >Take my lady, she will sigh
> >>
> >> >> >For my bed where'er I lie;
> >>
> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> >>
> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
> >>
> >> >> >To give to some poor poet old;
> >>
> >> >> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
> >>
> >> >> >If his age would wear my youth;
> >>
> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> >>
> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
> >>
> >> >> >Blow my body out of mind;
> >>
> >> >> >Take this heart to go with that
> >>
> >> >> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
> >>
> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> >>
> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> >Take the art which I bemoan
> >>
> >> >> >In a poem's crazy tone;
> >>
> >> >> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
> >>
> >> >> >To the starkest stick and stone;
> >>
> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> >>
> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the gre=
atest
> >>
> >> >> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
> >>
> >> >> >counterculture.
> >>
> >> >> > Maggie G.
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> >_________________________________________________________
> >>
> >> >> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
> >>
> >> >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >>
>
> =01=F4=D2*
> >>
> >> >>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
> >>
> >> >>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
> >>
> >> >>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
> >>
> >> >>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
> >>
> >> >>
>
> =01=F4=DAp
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >>
>
> =01=F4=DA=A5
> >>
> >> >>
>
> =01=F4=DB=04
> >>
> >> >>
>
> =01=F4=DB=04
> >>
> >> >>
>
> =01=F4x8
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> <center>************************************************************
> >>
> >> <bigger>Edward Desautels
> >>
> >> 7 Hamilton Road
> >>
> >> Somerville, MA 02144
> >>
> >> edesaute@bbnplanet.com
> >>
> >> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
> >>
> >>
> >> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,
> >>
> >> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
> >>
> >> Jacques Rigaut
> >>
> >>
> </bigger>************************************************************</=
center>
> >>
> >
> >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven =
For
> >Sure-JK
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:22:46 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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kudos to mr mike cakebread!
thanks for the trip trap trip.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:26:10 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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no, dave, you can only go home again if you bring the electric kool aid to me.
mc
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> Maggie Dharma wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 31-Jan-98 11:08:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > race@MIDUSA.NET writes:
> >
> > << so why was it that you can't go home again? a jayhawk mentor used to
> > quote him and all these other folks to me. some sunk in i guess.
> > >>
> >
> > It's an important distinction, Thomas (Look Homeward, Angel) and Tom
(Electric
> > Kool-Aid Acid Machine) Wolfe.
> >
> > Look Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City," explains
> > everything about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book speak for
> > itself.
> >
> > MD
> so you can only go home again if you bring the electric kool-aid with
> ya?????
>
> dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:38:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Blaster II
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Blaster
Map blaster
Sound blaster
Master blaster
Bass blaster
Poetry blaster
Math Blaster
Sand blaster
Cap blaster
Disaster blaster
No blaster
Coffee blaster
Portland Blaster
Mortar blaster
Clinton blaster
Ice cream blaster
Blaster blaster
Zoroaster blaster
Blaster blaster blaster
Zarathustra blaster
Jazz blaster
Rocket blaster
Crap blaster
Rock blaster
Blast blaster
Blues blaster
Cappuccino blaster
Blasto blaster
Blust blaster
Poster blaster
Blaster
Blast.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:39:10 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sanders Inquiry
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Gallaher wrote:
"Ed Saunders would be a perfect example of
the sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like."
-----------------------
can you elaborate on that? Sanders and Kerouac had a few things in common and
although that makes only a lil difference, where does Kerouac or his work say
or hint that Sanders "usurps" the beat label?
I'm guessing that you're talking about the book Sanders wrote, titled,"Tales
of Beatnik Glory, " and if this is correct, can you explain a bit? This is the
type of thing I'm thinking about right now. What kind of reactions do the core
Beats have to Sanders work? (On the back of this book I just mentioned,
Ginsberg praises the work, by the way.)
Drea
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:26:21 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
In-Reply-To: <34CF774A.1375@iclub.org>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
> > > When WSB attempts to cut the control lines by getting beyond words, he
> > > must, qua writer, still use words.
>
> === Which is why I am extremely disappointed that WSB never took the
> next step into totally opaque communication, a la Joyce's "Finnegan's
> Wake".
If it became TOTALLY opaque, would it still be "communication" at all?
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:50:43 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe
In-Reply-To: <78676fc9.34d3777d@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
maggie says:
>...
>Look Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City," explains
>everything about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book speak for
>itself.
>
>MD
>
it's possible...(i read in the middle 70s' some capthers of
_Look Homeward Angel_ later i lost the book) and following in
early 80s' the vanity of DuluozmatchingIt...but what im' now
thinking is the title of the Wolfe's novel was mimetic with
the Walter Benjamin "Angelus Novus"?
something with a progressive touch but with the head looking back
to the past...an image of something...
well
it's interesting what does go on,
and what doesn't go on
that should,
and the world's quite a sight
spun through spiders and webs
that catch us half asleep
and do us in
before we're even old enough
to know we're through-- charles bukowski
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:17:05 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
In-Reply-To: <34D063C9.60FB@iclub.org>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
> === I didn't mean that it was opaque to the people actively taking part
> in the communication, of course; then it wouldn't be much of a
> communication.
>
> No, I meant FW is opaque to those who don't speak the secret code,
> which would be most everyday citizens. FW is a rorschach test for the
> intelligentsia, a sort of encoded trivia quiz. To the average reader who
> does not understand the method of the writing, nor the literary,
> geographical, historical and biblical references and allusions, and who
> does not know how to break words down to their Latin roots, FW is a work
> written in secret code that they can never crack without the codex of
> education.
> [...]
> This is, to me, the logical next step that WSB should have taken after
> his cutups, because they are in the same spirit of code, tongues, Cant
> language, cyphers. "Naked Lunch" made no sense to me as a child either.
> To WSB, however, and those in his circle of influence it made sense -
> more and more sense, in fact, the deeper inside that circle you were,
> and understood the references to his own life. The irony of all this is
> that even as WSB claimed to want to break down language, smashing all
> barriers and "systems of control", he was actually using the broken
> pieces to build his *own* barrier, his own barricade against the world.
I have my doubts about this "code" theory as applied to WSB. Granted,
if language cannot be "totally opaque" (else it wouldn't be capable of
communicating at all), nor totally transparent (else why would it be
needed at all, if the things themselves could be seen so clearly on
their own?)--is a "code" really the only other alternative?
It seems to me that ALL ordinary language is a "code" in the sense you
have outlined. A "code" can be deciphered straightforwardly with a
key, i.e. a set of background assumptions, history of use, known
context, etc.--that is, simple facts. So, to the extent that
Joyce's work can be deciphered *simply* by referring to some fact
which may be discovered by looking in an encyclopedia or other
reference work, it is essentially of interest only to trivia buffs
(this goes for Thomas Pynchon too). But I think what WSB was trying to
do goes beyond a simple code; it has some sort of *metaphysical*
significance that cannot be deciphered like a code. In other words, I
don't think there is some independently known reality which can simply
be susbstituted for what he says (which is what deciphering a code
amounts to). What exactly this significance is, and how it's brought
about, is something I'm still groping towards, and is still just an
intuition (albeit a powerful one)--but if WSB's work were just
reducible to its context, it would indeed be essentially
uninteresting. Even though he may not have been entirely successful in
what he set out to do, nevertheless it's possible that he was on the
right track, that *something* happened here. I suspect too that if it
did succeed, thus success would not take the form of something like a
fact, and might very well be missed completely by someone looking for
"facts" (which is the only thing a code can ever communicate)....
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:27:25 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
Comments: cc: jholland@ICLUB.ORG
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Subject:
> the scary WSB
> Date:
> Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:43:32 +0100
> From:
> Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
>
>
> Cathy Wilkie wrote:
> >
> > thanks to all involved in this discussion--it makes burroughs not so
> > scary to me anymore...
>
> and Maggie Dharma wrote:
>
> > You all have given me a desire
> > to read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!
>
>
>
> === Cathy, Maggie, and others who have expressed similar views of WSB:
> what is it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'? I'm just curious.
> Is it the horrific imagery in his 60's work, or the man himself? I can't
> recommend highly enough a book called "Literary Outlaw" by Ted Morgan,
> the greatest WSB biography there is. It does much to dispel the myth of
> WSB as a nihilist, sadist, and generally unlikable person.
Jeff:
I think it is mostly this: my introduction to beat lit started with "on
the road" by Kerouac, and went on from there. I've always leaned a
little more towards his style of writing--the overly emotional feelings,
the joy in the little things in life, the small moments in your life
that have such an impact on who you become....
bearing that in mind, to switch from that view of beat lit to
burroughs--tough. what i've read about burroughs in the various
biographies i've read essentially boil him down to one thing--he was a
freaky-type dude, who thought way-out thoughts. I've always claimed
ignorance when it comes to the subject of burroughs. i know who he is
what he's written and all, but as far as reading his work itself, i've
always been scared to read it. Maybe it's a fear of discovering how the
mind works, perhaps it's the thought that i will discover things about
my own mind that i would rather not have learned. Don't rightly know, i
guess is what i'm saying.
I began getting over that fear when i bought "kerouac-kicks joy
darkness". I thought burroughs voice sounded nice, so i started paying
more attention to what people were saying about him on here. MOst of
the conversations, especially the wittgenstein-burroughs discussion, was
compleeeettly over my head. But the recent discussion has made sense to
me.
I'm smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but i never went to
grad school, and i resent the people who act like they know
'oh-so-much-more' than other people, the prententious people. They
unconciously exclude people like me who want to learn, who want to know
more, but can't understand their highly academic pseudo-language. I can
understand most concepts, having it put in layperson's terms helps me at
times.
So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've stated my ignorance on
burroughs, i've stated how you have to talk to me in order for me to
understand. Anyone out there wanna teach me more about burroughs?????
love ya all,
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:50:26 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "POMES, PENNY EACH." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
Drea,
I am a big Ed Sanders fan, let me know what you find. Sounds like you have most
of what I already have but if I see anything of interest, Ill pass it on. I doo
have an original of one of his old Beat Items catalog, the one that has
Ginsberg's cock dent in a jar of vaseline in it for sale. Let me know if you
want a xerox. Good luck, Sanders is great.
Dave B.
"BREITHAU@KENYON.EDU"
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:57:31 -0600
Reply-To: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein? (and Nietzsche)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.980128003504.22606A-100000@landen.math.uwaterloo.ca>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
> > You know, I've often wondered why Nietzsche isn't mentioned more often
> > in connection with WSB, or in WSB's own work. There seems to be a much
> > more organic similarity with Nietzsche than with Wittgenstein. Not
> > least because N also cited HiS's motto: ["Nothing is true;
> > everything is permitted"]
>
> Although one would have a hard time considering Burroughs a "Christian
> free spirit", he certainly strays into the proposition and its
> labyrinthine consequences in _The Cities of the Red Night_, where each
> city holds a different convolution of the proposition.
Yes, the fact that WSB has entered this labyrinth is what makes me
think that an examination of Nietzsche (who also entered it) with WSB
in mind might be more fruitful than the comparison to Wittgenstein,
who had only Bertrand Russell and GE Moore as background.
> > So if we are to avoid both this situation, as
> > well as the claim that WSB simply contradicts himself by *writing*
> > about the end of language, we would need a different, more powerful
> > interpretive framework: N's conception of self-overcoming, perhaps.
>
> I'm not sure that a "different interpretive framework" is necessary.
Well, I mean "different from the one provided by Wittgenstein". I hope
I have sufficiently established this by now.
> Burroughs was not writing *about* the end of language, he was writing to
> *bring about* the end of language.
Surely these two need not be mutually exclusive.
But you may very well be right in that what his writing *does* to
*bring about* something like the end of language is probably more
interesting than his explicit pronouncements *about* language. What
WSB says explicitly *about* what he is doing is often contradictory:
1) How is the "factualism" of his early work (primarily) supposed to
hang together with the "Nothing is true...." position?
2) [When talking about Korzybsky] He claims that either/or logic is a
basic mistake of western thought, but then practically in the same
breath insists that the word is not the object to which it refers--
which is surely an either/or distinction if there ever was one.
It's just not possible to be "against" either/or logic, since being
"against" something is possible only on the basis of an either/or:
EITHER either/or OR not either/or. I am convinced that either/or logic
is necessary, at at least *some* level. AT THE VERY LEAST, we need
THIS either/or: either something is different from something else in
some way, or it is not. If it's not possible to tell whether something
is different from anything else or not, then reality as whole would
just melt down into one big undifferentiated blob.
What we need to ask here is, I think, What is it exactly about
language that is the problem? We can say, "It is a method of control",
but what is it about language that makes such a thing possible? (And
why should we consider "control" as something to be avoided?)
The problem is, simply, that language is something *different* than
what it is "about". The word is not the thing itself. It is this
difference that makes mistakes, illusions, and frauds possible. But on
the other hand, it seems to me, this difference is *also* what makes
independent life (i.e., subjectivity) possible. There is no "I"
without this difference; without this difference, there is no self in
terms of which anything could be determined to be a mistake, illusion,
or fraud (that is, a threat of some sort). In other words, the "self",
to be a self at all, has to be determinably different from what it
perceives. For something like "perception" to be possible at all, we
must *repeat*, in a way, whatever it is we are perceiving, take it
into ourselves--make ourselves a "universal" in a way (cf. what you
say below, which seems to imply that our bodies are universals).
Something absolutely singular, if it existed, could
never be perceived at all or communicate with anything. An attack
against language, therefore, also amounts to attacking things like
perception, memory, communication--in fact, *experience in general*.
Which would be quite a radical project, which WSB points toward when
he talks about actual mutuations of what we are....whatever results
from all this may very well be unrecognizable.....
So what I am trying to dig out of WSB's work is, not some
straightforward "attack against language", but to see if perhaps what
it accomplishes is the introduction of a third, unassimilable element
into all this, one not reducible to either an objective fact or an
enclosed subjectivity. Does it do this? I don't know....maybe. Maybe
it accomplishes this simply by exhibiting the essential
uncontrolableness of language....something about language that
exceeds the dichotomy mentioned above....something that makes this
dichotmomy possible and even necessary in the first place but is not
captured by it........
So finally, we need to be careful to about declaring that WSBs project
has "failed"....for what it aimed to do may not be expressibile as a
"fact".....
> Burroughs' prison-break ultimately fails, although in systematically
> disrupting the syntactic and authorial basis on which writing rests he
> ruptured the tradition of discourse. The problem is that the rupture is
> only temporary (time-bound), for the universal discourse absorbs the
> singularity, and language rules again: in Burroughs' formulation the Word
> forces us into our bodies, inscribes us in shit and Time, and there ain't
> no escape lessen you figure out how to get into Space.
hope I haven't been totally obscure,
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:01:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exciting News
In-Reply-To: <52cb3c8e.34d36f64@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I also found a copy of Dharma Lion for 12 bucks. Has anyone read this
bio? Is it any good? I forget who the author is,though.
On Sat, 31 Jan
1998, Aeronwy Thomas wrote:
> wow, nancy, congrats. i can imagine how thrilled i would be to get something
> like that. =)
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:03:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exciting News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980131133953.571026136A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Not at all, Jeff. Im still way excited!On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor
wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
> > I nearly had a heart attack today when I picked up a used copy of AG's
> > Journals:Mid-Fifties for 12 dollars and after I payed for it, the guy told
> > me that it was a first edition. I flipped! I couldnt believe my luck! It
> > perfectly complements my first edition of Collected Works:1947-1980. Im so
> > verklempt!
>
> Don't want to put a damper on your excitement, but I picked up the
> same book, first-edition hardback, brand-new, in the summer of '96 for
> $7. It was so cheap because this edition has been remaindered. Which
> means it's unlikely ever to have much resale value on the used book
> market. (Of course, that's still a good deal, considering that the
> original cover price was $27.50)
>
> *******
> Jeff Taylor
> taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
> *******
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 19:49:38 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> I have my doubts about this "code" theory as applied to WSB.
Granted,
> if language cannot be "totally opaque" (else it wouldn't be capable of
> communicating at all), nor totally transparent (else why would it be
> needed at all, if the things themselves could be seen so clearly on
> their own?)--is a "code" really the only other alternative?
=== No....it's no theory, and need not be so complicated : it's just a
matter of course that Joyce's FW and WSB's cut-ups require some
adjustment of the average reader's way of reading text, i.e. from linear
to non-linear. I wouldn't compartmentalize all of literature down to the
three options you just named.
>
> It seems to me that ALL ordinary language is a "code" in the sense you
> have outlined.
=== Exactly. That's the point I was making.
> (this goes for Thomas Pynchon too).
=== good point - "Gravity's Rainbow" would fall under this category.
> But I think what WSB was trying to
> do goes beyond a simple code; it has some sort of *metaphysical*
> significance that cannot be deciphered like a code.
=== Oh, I agree; I never meant to infer that I thought WSB (or Joyce,
for that matter) was consciously writing in code. But in a very real
sense, there *is* a code involved into learning to get into certain
writers or certain books, and WSB's is far more complex than, say, Jack
London or something. Without thinking of it as such, the diligent reader
is learning WSB's codewords as s/he delves deeper : Tangiers, Kiki, boy,
junk-sick, control, Pan, Dutch Schultz, Interzone, fix, croaker, script,
Johnsons, shits, etc......since there is a conceptual continuity that
weaves between all WSB's work, the more the seeker reads, the more
illuminated s/he becomes. Put less pompously, "Bill talks about a lot
o'stuff ya might not unnerstand at first, but eventually you start to
figger out where he's comin' from".
> Even though he may not have been entirely successful in
> what he set out to do, nevertheless it's possible that he was on the
> right track, that *something* happened here.
=== Again, I agree. What, then, do you think of my statement that
started all this, that I wish WSB had tried for something as dense and
ambitious as Finnegans Wake, adding his cut-up principle to the formula?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland - Kentucky
potato chips and Sonny Rollins
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:51:45 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: WSB, Language etc..
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Jeff says:
"The problem is, simply, that language is something *different* than
what it is "about". The word is not the thing itself. It is this
difference that makes mistakes, illusions, and frauds possible. But on
the other hand, it seems to me, this difference is *also* what makes
independent life (i.e., subjectivity) possible. There is no "I"
without this difference; without this difference, there is no self in
terms of which anything could be determined to be a mistake, illusion,
or fraud (that is, a threat of some sort). In other words, the "self",
to be a self at all, has to be determinably different from what it
perceives. For something like "perception" to be possible at all, we
must *repeat*, in a way, whatever it is we are perceiving, take it
into ourselves--make ourselves a "universal" in a way (cf. what you
say below, which seems to imply that our bodies are universals).
Something absolutely singular, if it existed, could
never be perceived at all or communicate with anything. "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------
Is this Derridas????? sure sounds like it.
Drea
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 19:03:15 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: A cut-up in Holland
Mime-Version: 1.0
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WSB started this way, (didn't he?)
listening to Lester Young, 1944 stuff
thinking about sandwiches
kentucky
kentucky
somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky
meditating on Japanese candy
kentucky
cursing a defective pencil sharpener
potato chips and Sonny Rollins
kentucky
back from creepin' in the woods
going mountain climbing today
drinking Amaretto for Breakfast
somewhere in KY listening to Louis Jordan
....................................................................
copyright 1998, Irene D'Arma (go ahead, Jeffrey, try and sue me...)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:27:53 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Cathy: some WSB observations
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cathy Wilkie wrote:
> he was a
> freaky-type dude, who thought way-out thoughts.
=== it's all relative, though....back in the day, Kerouac was considered
a freaky-type dude who thought way-out thoughts, such as:
" Las mujeres blancas son la mierda" [white women are shit] I shudder to
hear it, whole hordes of Mongolians shall overrun the western world
saying that and they're only talking about the poor little blonde woman
in the drugstore who's doing her best - By God, if I were Sultan! I
wouldn't allow it! I'd arrange for something better! But it's only a
dream! Why fret? The world wouldn't exist if it didn't have the power to
liberate itself. Suck! Suck! suck at the teat of Heaven! Dog is God
spelled backwards." (from "Desolation Angels")
WSB is far freakier and way-out, of course, but perhaps that's his
position - the next zen koan in line to untangle after conquering
Kerouac.
> I'm smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but i never went to
> grad school, and i resent the people who act like they know
> 'oh-so-much-more' than other people, the prententious people.
=== I'm pretty pretentious myself, but it keeps me warm in the winter
months. But I agree, I can't stand literary snobs either, especially in
a field that was supposed to be confrontational with things literary and
snobby. I never went to college, period. (Well, Art school for a week
but I dropped out, then enrolled at Eastern Kentucky University and
dropped out the first day).
> So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've stated my ignorance on
> burroughs, i've stated how you have to talk to me in order for me to
> understand. Anyone out there wanna teach me more about burroughs?????
=== I think everyone should read his biography by Ted Morgan, "Literary
Outlaw", before reading a word of his own works. If you're already big
on Kerouac and Ginsberg, reading "The Letters of William S.Burroughs,
1945-1959" is a good way to slip into the groove - most of the letters
are to Ginsberg and many are to Kerouac....."The Yage Letters" also
includes some of these letters, with Ginsberg's replies and some
drawings by Ginsberg.....
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland, Kentucky
"here we come, all drunk a-gaaaaain..."
- - Memphis Jug Band, 1930
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:44:33 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: A cut-up in Holland
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Maggie Dharma wrote:
> (go ahead, Jeffrey, try and sue me...)
=== heh....I'll wait till you publish it somewhere....better ask for a
big advance.
I just read it out loud, doing my Jack Kerouac imitation, and by golly,
it sounds like it has "it"......maybe I'll read it at my next
reading...(go ahead, Maggie, try and sue me...)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Kentucky
Ah! Sunflower, weary of time...um...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:50:47 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization: smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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actually everyone doesn't have an asshole though most have opinions. i
knew this nurse named Nancy who was born .... well we won't go into
that! dbr (oops SCOPE!!!!!!!!!!!)
Marie Countryman wrote:
>=20
> mr desautels,
> it is coming to my awareness that you may have come to the wrong list.=
i believe
> the monty python list would be more appropriate a venue for your one li=
ners: i
> would recommend either the arguement clinic, or, perhaps more aptly, th=
e verbal
> abuse department.
> sincerely,
> mc
>=20
> Edward Desautels wrote:
>=20
> > Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > At 11:58 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
> > >What is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?
> > >conceptualizing, my ass.
> > >
> > >On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:
> > >
> > >> Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I =
see
> > little value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without
> > conceptualizing it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile
> > discussion. To simply state that one likes (or dislikes) a given piec=
e
> > doesn't go very far toward generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. T=
ake to
> > the next step, whether it be a personal insight or reflection on some
> > aspect of the piece or something more lit crit/theoretical. How has t=
he
> > piece influenced, say, your conception of a poetics. Something.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four =
hours
> > handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read a=
bout. :]
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Ed
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list=
serv
> > but as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of tot=
ality
> > of beat lit. and
> > >>
> > >> >speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?
> > >>
> > >> >i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i=
've
> > beeen reading ginsberg for years.
> > >>
> > >> >mc
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> >Edward Desautels wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
> > >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> > >> >> Ed
> > >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> > >> >> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949)=
that
> > >>
> > >> >> >I thought was well worth sharing.
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> >Take my love, it is not true,
> > >>
> > >> >> >So let it tempt no body new;
> > >>
> > >> >> >Take my lady, she will sigh
> > >>
> > >> >> >For my bed where'er I lie;
> > >>
> > >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> > >>
> > >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
> > >>
> > >> >> >To give to some poor poet old;
> > >>
> > >> >> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
> > >>
> > >> >> >If his age would wear my youth;
> > >>
> > >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> > >>
> > >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
> > >>
> > >> >> >Blow my body out of mind;
> > >>
> > >> >> >Take this heart to go with that
> > >>
> > >> >> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
> > >>
> > >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> > >>
> > >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> >Take the art which I bemoan
> > >>
> > >> >> >In a poem's crazy tone;
> > >>
> > >> >> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
> > >>
> > >> >> >To the starkest stick and stone;
> > >>
> > >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
> > >>
> > >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the g=
reatest
> > >>
> > >> >> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
> > >>
> > >> >> >counterculture.
> > >>
> > >> >> > Maggie G.
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> >_________________________________________________________
> > >>
> > >> >> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
> > >>
> > >> >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >>
> > >> >> >
> > >>
> > >> >>
> >
> > =01=F4=D2*
> > >>
> > >> >>
> >
> > =01=F4=DA0
> > >>
> > >> >>
> >
> > =01=F4=DA0
> > >>
> > >> >>
> >
> > =01=F4=DA0
> > >>
> > >> >>
> >
> > =01=F4=DA0
> > >>
> > >> >>
> >
> > =01=F4=DAp
> > >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> > >> >>
> >
> > =01=F4=DA=A5
> > >>
> > >> >>
> >
> > =01=F4=DB=04
> > >>
> > >> >>
> >
> > =01=F4=DB=04
> > >>
> > >> >>
> >
> > =01=F4x8
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> <center>**********************************************************=
**
> > >>
> > >> <bigger>Edward Desautels
> > >>
> > >> 7 Hamilton Road
> > >>
> > >> Somerville, MA 02144
> > >>
> > >> edesaute@bbnplanet.com
> > >>
> > >> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,
> > >>
> > >> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
> > >>
> > >> Jacques Rigaut
> > >>
> > >>
> > </bigger>************************************************************=
</center>
> > >>
> > >
> > >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heave=
n For
> > >Sure-JK
> > >
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:14:45 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization: art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Sanders Inquiry
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Andrea Moore wrote:
>
> Gallaher wrote:
>
> "Ed Saunders would be a perfect example of
> the sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like."
> -----------------------
> can you elaborate on that? ...<snip>...
> Drea
i dunno that i agree.. ginsberg was friendly with saunders, who taught
early on at naropa. keouac was a little negative about the next
generation, but he thought it was cool when elvis appeared on ed
sullivan for the first time, and later said dylan was ok, so i don't
know that he'd have disliked ed. i understand the statement in the
sense that saunders could've represented the 'younger generation' which
always has it easier than the pioneers of the previous generation, and
is never quite as bright or authentic, and i guess kerouac wasn't too
impressed with the prankster scene, either, but i think one on one,
kerouac would've respected saunders' talent and brains....ah...did they
ever meet?
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:31:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exciting News
Comments: To: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca>
In-Reply-To: <34D3CF6D.2C1@sk.sympatico.ca>
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Adrien-
Living in NYC definitely has its advantages. For those of you who live in
the area, check out the Housing Works Used Book Store and Cafe. Its on
Crosby, between Houston and whatever street comes after Houston, in Soho.
Its a great little place.
On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Adrien Begrand wrote:
> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> >
> >I also found a copy of Dharma Lion for 12 bucks. Has anyone read this
> >bio? Is it any good? I forget who the author is,though.
>
> Nancy,
>
> I think it's the most definitive Ginsberg biography out there. It's as
> comprehensive and well-written as the Kerouac bio Memory babe. You're so
> lucky to be finding these books for so cheap!
>
> Adrien
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:05:09 -0600
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From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
In-Reply-To: <34D36F57.2E95@iclub.org>
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On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
> > It seems to me that ALL ordinary language is a "code" in the sense you
> > have outlined.
>
> === Exactly. That's the point I was making.
Well, the key word in what I said was "ordinary", that *ordinary*
language (or more accurately, the ordinary understanding of language)
is a code--BUT that WSB's writing (or at least what's most interesting
and significant about it) is NOT "ordinary" language and therefore not
adequately understood as a "code".
> > But I think what WSB was trying to
> > do goes beyond a simple code; it has some sort of *metaphysical*
> > significance that cannot be deciphered like a code.
>
> === Oh, I agree; I never meant to infer that I thought WSB (or Joyce,
> for that matter) was consciously writing in code. But in a very real
> sense, there *is* a code involved into learning to get into certain
> writers or certain books, and WSB's is far more complex than, say, Jack
> London or something. Without thinking of it as such, the diligent reader
> is learning WSB's codewords as s/he delves deeper : Tangiers, Kiki, boy,
> junk-sick, control, Pan, Dutch Schultz, Interzone, fix, croaker, script,
> Johnsons, shits, etc......since there is a conceptual continuity that
> weaves between all WSB's work, the more the seeker reads, the more
> illuminated s/he becomes. Put less pompously, "Bill talks about a lot
> o'stuff ya might not unnerstand at first, but eventually you start to
> figger out where he's comin' from".
I agree, too, that there is a code here, but it's not a problem just
in *certain* writers or *certain* books. There is, no doubt, a code
involved in the inderstanding of *any* language--at some level. BUT
the point I was trying to make is that the deciphering of the code
(insofar as the coded utterance is always correlated with--and can
thus be deciphered via--some referent, whether object or concept) in
fact tell us little or nothing about the work's real significance,
what it's really *about*. The determination of what objects or
concepts are being referred to or invoked amounts only to the
statement of the problem, not to its solution.
> > Even though he may not have been entirely successful in
> > what he set out to do, nevertheless it's possible that he was on the
> > right track, that *something* happened here.
>
> === Again, I agree. What, then, do you think of my statement that
> started all this, that I wish WSB had tried for something as dense and
> ambitious as Finnegans Wake, adding his cut-up principle to the formula?
Well, as is perhaps obvious by now, I don't think it would have added
very much, insofar as the "density" of JJ is nothing more than a long
series of obscure allusions and references to little-known
facts--whether these facts be objective ones or the record of some
stream-of-consciousness dialogue.
Maybe this will help more: here is a quotation from Kierkegaard, in
which he is explaining how to interpret Socrates:
There is a painting that shows Napoleon's grave. Two tall
trees shade the grave. There is nothing else to see in the work,
and the unsophisticated observer sees nothing else. Between the two
trees is an empty space; as the eye follows the outline, suddenly
Napoleon himself emerges from this nothing, and now it is
impossible to have him disappear again....So also with Socrates.
One hears his words in the same way one sees the trees; his words
mean what they say, just as the trees are trees. There is not one
single syllable that gives a hint of any other interpretation, just
as there is not one single line that suggest Napoleon; and yet this
empty space, this nothing, is what hides what is most important.
So by deciphering Socrates' code, one gets only the trees, and may
still miss completely the big picture, what it's really about. The
code *itself* gives no hint of what is most important....one must see
beyond it. Likewise with WSB, and perhaps every other significant
writer....one must see beyond the details, try to see the larger
picture it makes.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 21:39:01 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Sanders Inquiry
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At 06:14 PM 1/31/98 +0000, Tom Christopher wrote:
<snip>
>kerouac would've respected saunders' talent and
>brains....ah...did they ever meet?
Yup, on "The Firing Line" with William F. Buckley.
Kerouac also contributed to Sanders' magazine
_Fuck You_. I believe the television incident
was the first formal meeting.
Mike
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:16:17 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
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Jeff Taylor wrote:
> BUT that WSB's writing (or at least what's most interesting
> and significant about it) is NOT "ordinary" language and therefore not
> adequately understood as a "code".
=== maybe I've had too much Amaretto tonight and the bullet-memes are
sailing right over the glass on my head, but it seems to me that the
less ordinary a language is, the more code-like it is, in that the
average reader must strive harder because the key is more encoded, and
thus, understand fully what has been written.
> There is, no doubt, a code
> involved in the inderstanding of *any* language--at some level.
=== Oh, sure, that's been my contention all along too, that language =
code.
> the point I was trying to make is that the deciphering of the code
> (insofar as the coded utterance is always correlated with--and can
> thus be deciphered via--some referent, whether object or concept) in
> fact tell us little or nothing about the work's real significance
=== well, this would be purely subjective.
> The determination of what objects or
> concepts are being referred to or invoked amounts only to the
> statement of the problem, not to its solution.
=== I see what you're saying here, but often the medium really IS the
message. The ideas one gleans from WSB's work, cut-up or not, are very
subjective and open to interpretation, yet zumtimes a banana ist chust a
banana. I think WSB believed that by rearranging his words and words of
others in just the right way, he was setting in motion something that
could be alternately compared to an alchemical formula, a codex, a magic
spell of sorts - that imparted information that could not be otherwise
conveyed by remotely linear means. Such WSB-induced satoris are not
immediately evident; I didn't realize how drastically WSB changed the
way I think until years later.
> Well, as is perhaps obvious by now, I don't think it would have added
> very much, insofar as the "density" of JJ is nothing more than a long
> series of obscure allusions and references to little-known
> facts--whether these facts be objective
=== aha, but reread WSB's essay on the nature of coincidence. I have no
doubt that if WSB were taking part in this conversation, he would say
something like "nothing is obscure under quan-tum physics, all obscure
references are frrrraught with im-portance.....any given sentence is
denser with in-formation thaaaan any. man. dreams. "
> So by deciphering Socrates' code, one gets only the trees, and may
> still miss completely the big picture, what it's really about. The
> code *itself* gives no hint of what is most important
=== Right. Or to use a simpler analogy, learning the symbols in Chinese
(a herculean task at that) still doesn't mean you understand Chinese,
because they only represent phonetic shapes - you still have to learn
what the Chinese words formed by the symbols *mean*.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Scott Holland - Ky
my head hurts
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:49:00 -0500
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From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
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First off if a teenage boy consented for sex with a older man it is not
wrong. Homosexual intercourse with teenage boys was common in Greece and
many of other parts of the world. If they consent to it's not wrong.
Secondly sex with a teenage boy is different than that of a prepubesent
child. A young child is totaly nonacceptable. A teenager is
physiologicaly ready for sexual intercourse. A young child is not. As
far as I know William S. Burroughs only had sex with teenage boys.
Therfore he is not a pedophile. Reading this I hope you will see the
idot is you,Denny. I hope this was enlightening for you.
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:09:46 EST
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From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sanders Inquiry etc..
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Tom wrote:
"but i think one on one,
kerouac would've respected saunders' talent and brains....ah...did they
ever meet?"
----------------------------------------------
Kerouac and Sanders did meet. Sanders lived in New York (and roomed with J.C.
Holmes, in fact), and supposedly Kerouac and bar buddies would come over over
and crash into Sanders' family life quite often. (It was all in good humor,
though) Sanders worked and had kids and all that, so he wasn't as into the
Kerouac drunken wandering bar to bar thing. I learned of all this from some
letters from Kerouac to John Holmes.
Also, Sanders really wasn't a part of the Pranksters thing. He was a fug and
a member of the yippie thing, but i think that's after Kerouac was in his
weird state--at home with his mom and cats and TV.
Drea
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:21:51 EST
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From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: WSB and pedophilia?
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In a message dated 31-Jan-98 7:50:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bonmark@WEBTV.NET writes:
<< First off if a teenage boy consented for sex with a older man it is not
wrong. Homosexual intercourse with teenage boys was common in Greece >>
Mark,
This is a difficult topic to make generalizations about, but I think if some
are going to be made, they should be made in favor of childhood, however long
that lasts, and also in favor of better, more mature judgment on the part of
adults.
A lot of teenaged girls are of legal age, sexually speaking, but they are not
in full possession of the maturity required to make decisions about sexual
consent. As a result, many are exploited and a whole shitload get pregnant.
Except for the pregnant part, the identical is true for teenaged boys.
There are also a lot of reasons why kids might consent to sex or actually be
groomed for sex with older people. Many of those reasons are self-destructive,
or relate to low self-esteem or a life-pattern of sexual abuse and/or
exploitation.
Your average teenage kid, if sexually active, is looking for a partner who's
on the same level. A child who seeks out an adult for sex is probably not
really seeking sex, but to fulfill some horrible prophecy about him or herself
that was learned in childhood abusive situations. It's just not natural for
people of such vast age differences WHERE THE LEVEL OF MATURITY AND POWER is
so inequitable for sex to exist. Nor, in my opinion, is it good.
What I'm saying is that if two people have sex, there should be completely
equal awareness of what is happening. Otherwise, it's not truly "consenting."
A person who hasn't even qualified for a driver's license or is not yet
considered mature enough to cast a vote should also not be a candidate for sex
with someone significantly older. That's predatory.
Lastly, adults should know better. Even if a child wanted to have sex, or
appeared to want to have sex, a mature, rational adult response would be to
say, "I'm flattered, but this is the only time you have to be a kid and it
will never come again. I'm not going to take that away from you."
It's something best judged on a case-by-case basis, of course, but Lolita was
not for real; just the fantasy of dirty old men. A child is a child, and there
is no magic age when that stops and adulthood begins, even though a rip-
roaring, hormone-driven sex drive may also exist. It's much more complicated
than the argument you've laid out here, I think.
Speaking from stolen innocence here,
Maggie
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:35:31 -0500
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From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: WSB and pedophilia?
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Let me say a few things. First it depends on the individual not the age
group. Maybe some teenagers are mature enough,some are not.
The real thing I was trying to get at was WSB really a child molester?
This was what I was trying to determine,not a course in ethics.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:48:10 EST
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From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: WSB and pedophilia?
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In a message dated 31-Jan-98 8:37:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bonmark@WEBTV.NET writes:
<< The real thing I was trying to get at was WSB really a child molester? >>
And I have to say I honestly can't answer this, because I don't know enough
about his sex life. Certainly, the best-qualified to answer this would be any
young men he did have sex with.
Some of his
lovers were 40 or 50 years younger than he but entirely able to
consent. I
haven't heard any stories about now-grown men who felt abused or
molested by
Burroughs (or Ginsberg, for that matter). It is a distasteful
subject to
me, I'll admit, especially because of that NAMBLA connection. The
entire
concept of "man-boy love" is, in my opinion, just a way of saying,
"I
want to
fuck a child."
There are a
lot of ugly things one sees when one turns the lens to focus on
the entire
canvas of another person's life. Probably, attempting to speculate
about this
subject won't do any good. Possibly, it'll look even uglier as a
result.
I don't
know, I can't answer. I hope it wasn't inappropriate, what he did,
what Ginsberg did. Who does know? Who can answer this question? Maybe this
list can't.
Maggie