=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:15:09 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>

Subject:      Re: Fwd: [too much coffee]

MIME-Version: 1.0

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i must say that i can identify with the title of your message; i've been

having the same problem lately.

 

> I think this all ties into the feeling of being alive that I love to

> talk about.

 

i may be wrong, but i think that being alive is something that you

should experience more and talk about less.

 

 Being real to yourself, but this is very

> dangerous because it opens you up. Makes you vulnerable. What do you

> think?

 

there is nothing wrong with being vulnerable. i mean, you do get hurt,

but at least you are what you are; you are honest to yourself, and you

know that you are alive. if it opens you up, it opens you up to

experience. and, as i understood, that's what you want, isn't it?

 

> Experiences like the ones I have been having lately makes you stop and

> think.

 

don't stop. don't think. just do it. use it: write!

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:27:46 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>

Subject:      Re: Fwd: [Fwd: spicy beef burritos]

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I pondered the expression "Life is

> what you make it". Which for the most part I agree, but at the same time

> I believe you are what life makes you. There are events that occur that

> are beyond you control and as you deal with the situation you grow as a

> person.

 

only at the conscious level; things, if you noticed, always happen for a

reason. you may call it destiny if you please, but you may also ascribe

it to yourself. it is well known that if your attitude towards life is

positive, so will be the things happening to you. and vice versa. life

IS what you make of it.

 

 Are you a mass of chemical reactions, chromosomes, and

> nuerotransmitters? That's a cold fact I can't bring myself to believe,

> of course that is a part of who we are like it or not, but I like to

> think that we play at least a small part in the shaping of our

> personalities. I would have to describe the human animal as mystical,

> trying not to sound to corny, a mixture of all these chemicals firing

> and flowing and an unexplainable drive and consciousness.

> 

that's what, more or less, modern physics says. i suggest that you find

and read 'the dancing wu-li masters' (i think i spelled it right) by

gary zukav (not sure about the first name).

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:32:01 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>

Subject:      Re: [too much coffee]

MIME-Version: 1.0

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and besides, the people who

> are unhappy, perhaps they would not be this way if not for the rest of society

> around them....

 

 

do you really think so?

 

this

> "left out" feeling causes them to have a sense of brooding depression and

> loneliness they "may or may not" otherwise feel if love and relationships did

> not play such a huge, idealistic or otherwise, role in our society...

> 

but, what if not love? not in the narrowest, romantic sense. from a

certain point of view, everything can be considered love.

 

perhaps if we were all to give in to our

> innermost desires, this world would be even more fucked up than it is

> already.....

 

????

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:36:29 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>

Subject:      Re: I apologize

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> perhaps it is something explainable.......who are we to suggest we know all

> the answers concerning our drives and consciousnesses?

 

as i look at it, there is no right answer to any question. even

mathematics has doubts about things that seem obvious. so, we can create

a theory, about our consciousness, or anything else for that matter, and

if it works (if it's coherent, as scientists say) it is good enough.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 15:59:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac pieces?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:10 PM 12/27/97 EST, john j dorfner wrote:

 

>the two pieces that you were asking about are included

>in Kerouac's "Good Blonde & Others"...

 

Thanx, one of the books that are on loan. . .

Looked familiar, but couldn't place them.

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:12:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      The Politically correct days of Christmas (fwd)

Mime-Version: 1.0

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I thought someone might get a chuckle out of

this. . .

 

>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:10:12 -0500 (EST)

>To: Michael Cakebread <cake0570@mach1.wlu.ca>

>Subject: The Politically correct days of Christmas (fwd)

 

>The "Politically Correct" Days of Christmas...

>----------------------------------------------

 

>On the 12th day of the Eurocentrically imposed

>midwinter festival, my Significant Other in a

>consenting adult, monogamous relationship gave to

>me:

> 

>TWELVE males reclaiming their inner warrior

>through ritual drumming,

>ELEVEN pipers piping (plus the 18-member pit orchestra

>made up of members in good standing of the Musicians

>Equity Union as called for in their union contract

>even though they will not be asked to play a note),

>TEN melanin deprived testosterone-poisoned scions

>of the patriarchal ruling class system leaping,

>NINE persons engaged in rhythmic self-expression,

>EIGHT economically disadvantaged female persons stealing >milk-products

from enslaved Bovine-Americans,

>SEVEN endangered swans swimming on federally

>protected wetlands,

>SIX enslaved Fowl-Americans producing stolen

>non-human animal products,

>FIVE golden symbols of culturally sanctioned enforced

>domestic incarceration,

>(NOTE: after members of the Animal Liberation Front

>threatened to throw red paint at my computer, the

>calling birds, French hens and partridge have been

>reintroduced to their native habitat. To avoid further

>Animal-American enslavement, the remaining gift

>package has been revised.)

>FOUR hours of recorded whale songs

>THREE deconstructionist poets

>TWO Sierra Club calendars printed on recycled processed

>tree carcasses

>and...

>ONE Spotted Owl activist chained to an old-growth pear

>tree.

>Merry Christmas  Happy Chanukah. Good Kwanzaa.

>Blessed Yule. Oh, heck!  Happy Holidays!!!! (unless

>otherwise prohibited by law) *

> 

>*Unless, of course, you are suffering from Seasonally

>Affected Disorder (SAD). If this be the case, please

>substitute this gratuitous call for celebration with

>suggestion that you have a thoroughly adequate day.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:33:41 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHERRI!

Content-Type: text/plain

 

BULLETIN:

 

We are planning to sing the first round of Happy Birthdays to Sherri at

Tosca's, across the street from City Lights this evening at 8:00 p.m.

After

that you might find us at City Lights or Vesuvios, eating Chinese food,

roaming about in the neighborhood, then we are off to dance somewhere.

Sweet

marie will be there, Ann Marie (Anne Murphy) will be there, James

Stauffer

and myself and any one of you who can join us. We hope some of you can

make it. Sorry to be so late.

 

Happy Birthday Sherri!!

 

leon

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:10:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHERRI!

In-Reply-To:  <19971227213342.11972.qmail@hotmail.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

If you pop across the street to Prairie Lights tell Paul Joe and Shar Grant

send him our best.

 

How wonderful that you folks are in Iowa City. Wish I were able to drive

over from Madison.

 

j grant

 

 

>BULLETIN:

> 

>We are planning to sing the first round of Happy Birthdays to Sherri at

>Tosca's, across the street from City Lights this evening at 8:00 p.m.

>After that you might find us at City Lights or Vesuvios, eating Chinese food,

>roaming about in the neighborhood, then we are off to dance somewhere.

>Sweet marie will be there, Ann Marie (Anne Murphy) will be there, James

>Stauffer and myself and any one of you who can join us. We hope some of

>you can

>make it. Sorry to be so late.

> 

>Happy Birthday Sherri!!

> 

>leon

 

 

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:19:37 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHERRI!

 

Joe, we're in San Francisco.  Leon said City Lights Books.  any of you Bay

Area beats who would like to meet Marie whois visiting us or just want an

excuse to party and touch a couple of Beat haunts, please join us.  we'll

meet at Cafe Tosca for a drink, then hang at Vesuvio, then if we're hungry

probably grab some cheap pasta at Pasta Pomodoro, then off to find some

dancing (will be checking the Guardian this afternoon, suggestions welcome).

please e-mail me if you'll be joining us so we'll know to hang in one place

til you get there.

 

and to everyone - hope you had a wonderful holiday and a most beatific New

Year to you all.

 

ciao, sherri

-----Original Message-----

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, December 27, 1997 2:07 PM

Subject: Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHERRI!

 

 

>If you pop across the street to Prairie Lights tell Paul Joe and Shar Grant

>send him our best.

> 

>How wonderful that you folks are in Iowa City. Wish I were able to drive

>over from Madison.

> 

>j grant

> 

> 

>>BULLETIN:

>> 

>>We are planning to sing the first round of Happy Birthdays to Sherri at

>>Tosca's, across the street from City Lights this evening at 8:00 p.m.

>>After that you might find us at City Lights or Vesuvios, eating Chinese

food,

>>roaming about in the neighborhood, then we are off to dance somewhere.

>>Sweet marie will be there, Ann Marie (Anne Murphy) will be there, James

>>Stauffer and myself and any one of you who can join us. We hope some of

>>you can

>>make it. Sorry to be so late.

>> 

>>Happy Birthday Sherri!!

>> 

>>leon

> 

> 

> 

>                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

>                             Details  on-line at

>                                 http://www.bookzen.com

>                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:50:23 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "David C. Breithaupt" <moondog@WELL.COM>

Subject:      Re: twister (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:47:18 -0800

From: Kesey and/or Babbs <kenk@efn.org>

To: "David C. Breithaupt" <moondog@well.com>

Subject: Re: twister

 

It's two days before Christmas

And all through the hoose

Everything's stirring

Including the moose.

 

The chocolate bubbling

On the stove over there

Soon to be applied

To the fattening eclair.

 

Remember this phrase

And attempt to fly it:

Eat drink and make merry

For tomorrow you may diet.

 

The elves jumped for joy

And joy jumped out the window

Gets too hot in the kitchen

Plunk yer butt down in the snow.

 

There's nothing every season

You can think of that's worse

Than guys like me

Attempting to make verse.

 

So just knock your selfs out

Don't pay no attention to me

Do whatever you want

With verve, grace and excess of glee.

 

Happy Holidays and bodacious New Year.

 

k&k

 

http://www.intrepidtrips.com

 

                 __________

                 _/          |

                |_  FURTHER _|

                   O       O

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:06:23 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Permutation poems

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SGI.3.96.971227210531.18998A-100000@komma.fddi2.fu-be

              rlin.de>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 21.25 27/12/97 +0100, Florian Cramer wrote:

>Dear all,

> 

>my apologies if my request sounds naive, since I am not really familiar

>with the beat poetry tradition. I am in the midst of writing an M.A.

>thesis about combinatory poetry from the 17th to the 20th century, and it

>took me long until I stumbled over information that Brion Gysin wrote

>"permutation poems" around 1960. This is highly interesting for me, since

>it was the same time when Raymond Queneau wrote his permuting "100.000

>Billion Poems" and when the information theorist Abraham A. Moles

>published his "Manifesto of Permutation Art". You might also be interested

>to hear that the "fold-in" method was prototyped in a novel by Marc

>Saporta which appeared in the early 1960s. It seems like the mutual

>influences on the development of combinatory/permutational literature in

>early 1960s France (where I guess Gysin was living at that time) still

>needs to be researched, in case I'm not telling you old stories here.

> 

>I took me quite long to find out about Gysin's "permutation poems" since

>Gysin and Burroughs are not quite considered high cultural/canonical

>writers in European academia, so that even such comprehensive accounts of

>permutational poetry as Ulrich Ernst's "Permutation als Prinzip in der

>Lyrik" ("Permutation as a principle in poetry", published in: Poetica,

>no.24, 1992) don't mention Gysin's experiments.

> 

>Hence my question: Are Gysin's "permutation poems" published in books? Are

>there any essays or commentaries about them? In the Web, I found

>information that Gysin created these poems with the help of a computer;

>however, the Web page didn't mention the source of this information, so

>I'm a bit suspicious. Did Gysin make any statements about his

>permutational poetry in interviews? ... It seems really difficult

>researching this, since most of Gysin's books are small press and out of

>print, and I guess that the majority of Gysin criticism has been published

>in the underground press.

> 

>Any help in this matter is really appreciated!

> 

>Florian

> 

 

dear Florian.

u are right Brion Gysin really made use of the computer

with the help of Ian Sommerville, the performance

"The Permuted Poems of Bryon Gysin" was aired by the

BBC but the audience rate was very low (the 2th worst score in

the history of the BBC).

[Nothing Here Now But The Recordings (1959-1980)

LP IR 0016 ''Industrial Records'' Rough Trade,

137 Blenheim Crescent, London W11, England.]

 

& it's possible that some tapes are in the

"Burroughs Communication Center" at Lawrence,Kansas.

 

i hope this help & other friends maybe can add

further info,

 

r.

 

---

Brion Gysin interviewed:

 

Devo confessare che i documenti piu' avventurosi sono stati

realizzati con vetusti Revere e con scatoline giapponesi da

100 $ con cui facevamo gli stupidi, William, Ian Sommerville

ed io. Affrofittai delle sovvenzioni BBC per realizzare con

loro una serie di poesie sonore. Tecnicamente non si discutono

,certo. In principio m'era parso di capire che avrei avuto a

disposizione una settimana; salto' fuori poi che erano tre

giorni soltanto, cosi' nella fretta alla fine cominciai a

spezzettare un testo parlato- mi pare fosse la spiegazione di

come funziona il lavoro in cut-up, Cut-ups Self Explained- e

lo feci passare parecchie volte nella strumentazione elettronica.

Approdai sul nastro a parole del tutto nuove, mai pronunciate

scientemente da me e da altri. L'esperimento fu subito ritirato

perche'... il tempo era finito e Loro erano un po' alterati,

anzi decisamente malpresi per i risultati che saltavano fuori

dagli altoparlanti; non furono poco contenti di darci un taglio.

"Beh, che si aspettavano? Un coro di cherubini con le imbeccate

sulla Borsa?"--William Burroughs.

 

"The Permutated Poems of Brion Gysin" (riversato al computer da

 Ian Sommerville) fu trasmesso dalla BBC, per la produzione di

Douglas Cleverson.(Il secondo peggior indice di gradimento fatto

registrare). sono reperibili alcuni dei primi esperimenti di

Cut-Up su nastro: Nothing Here Now But The Recordings (1959-1980)

LP IR 0016 reperibile nel catalogo ''Industrial Records'' Rough

Trade, 137 Blenheim Crescent, London W11, England.

 

---

saluti

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:35:49 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      11 23 magic numbers

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971226111445.36916C-100000@srv1.freenet.calg

              ary.ab.ca>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

MagenDror@aol.com writes:

>>i ask you, for my vanity, if the 23

>Both, I think. I came across numerous 23 synchronicities before being made

>aware of the Burroughs connexion, so the fact that WSB was also aware of

>these is just further synchronicity. Eleven . . . also a prime number, but

>not as interesting from a kabbalistic perspective as 23. And see Psalm 23 .

 

Dear Luther and others,

the William S. Burrough's interest for the number 23

as prime number is anticipated by the italian futuristic

performer Filippo Tommaso Marinetti (1876-1944). Marinetti

has for him the magic numer 11 (eleven).

saluti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:08:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHERRI!

In-Reply-To:  <04e2e0721221bc7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Joe, we're in San Francisco.

 

Of course. I saw City Lights, but was thinking Prairie Lights. Got carried

away.

 

Happy everything out there.

 

j grant

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:25:25 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: ]

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 97-12-27 13:22:14 EST, you write:

 

<< hey...as Mark Twain said..."never trust a man that can't spell a word 3

 ways..."

 spelling is for editors...not for writers.

  >>

 

 

very very true......point taken......

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:34:10 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: [too much coffee]

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 97-12-27 15:39:55 EST, you write:

 

<< and besides, the people who

 > are unhappy, perhaps they would not be this way if not for the rest of

society

 > around them....

 do you really think so?

~~~it's only a theory....not one i particularly hold too much stock in, but

nonetheless, a suggestion i have considered....i have seen a lot of people who

react according to the rest of the pack, whether it be with them or against

them....and i have seen friends and family who become seriously ill as a

result of wanting too hard to be accepted by a society they believe has set

standards of what a person should be.....but by no means would i generalize

this statement for everyone....

 

 this

 > "left out" feeling causes them to have a sense of brooding depression and

 > loneliness they "may or may not" otherwise feel if love and relationships

did

 > not play such a huge, idealistic or otherwise, role in our society...

 >

 but, what if not love? not in the narrowest, romantic sense. from a

 certain point of view, everything can be considered love.

~~~from a certain point of view.....sorta like the statement i suppose, "some

things done out of love are beyond good and evil".....but if you can say that

everything can be considered love from one perspective, you could easily turn

it around, and say everything is done out of selfishness

 

 perhaps if we were all to give in to our

 > innermost desires, this world would be even more fucked up than it is

 > already.....

 ????

~~~meaning, if we stopped limiting ourselves.....(which some, not all of us

do)....stop checking out innermost selves at the door, in the name or morality

or all else, perhaps, perhaps our society or our world would be more

anarchist...and not necessarily in a political or negative fashion....perhaps

more love would be shown, you know the facade(if it exists) of machoism would

be let down...more emotions could be revealed.....or perhaps we would have a

million more neal cassadys in the world....or perhaps not....you never

know.....if every man and woman on this planet for one day, unlocked these

man-made doors constructed by physical boundaries, religion, morality,

etc......and just went above it all, transcendance, whatever you would like to

call it......and just did absolutely what they wanted to, then we would have a

truly curious and mysterious and beautifully odd world.....

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:54:04 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      a poem by Gary Snyder.

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SGI.3.96.971227210531.18998A-100000@komma.fddi2.fu-be

              rlin.de>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

How Poetry Comes to Me          by Gary Snyder

 

It comes blundering over the

Boulders at night, it stays

Frightened outside the

Range of my campfire

I go to meet it at the

Edge of the light

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:55:27 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      New Kerouac Translations

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Kerouac's reputation and acceptance as an important writer continues to

spread around the world.  He is now been translated into two additional

languages - Turkish and Hebrew.

 

The books are:

 

Yolda (On The Road) published in Istanbul by Kiyi

 

ha-Hatranim (The Subterraneans) published in Tel Aviv by Geranim

 

 

Irving Leif

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 05:38:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Personal to Michael Nally

In-Reply-To:  <34A5D641.45F5@eunet.yu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Michael,

 

I received your post about "Sunlight Dies With The Roses" but my mail to

you is bouncing. Any ideas?

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:56:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Satori in Phoenix

MIME-Version: 1.0

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This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie

Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in

Phoenix.

 

OR

 

It's just a way of saying hello to friends around here and there.

 

The flight here i was reading Maggie C. but two rows back some young kid

was reading the compleat works of Rimbaud and coincidentally or not the

guy sitting next to him went into some sort of overdose coma and came

out to try and light a cigarette (which i could definitely relate to)

and was stopped and then passed out and then the call for medical folks

and gadgets and junk connected to him which pretty much meant that the

rest of us were not only excluded from our nicotine doses but also had

to wait extra extra long to get our caffeine infusions.  But it was a

rather decent distraction.

 

So ---- sitting in Mesa (not actually IN Phoenix --- but close to it)

and I finally says to myself i need an infusion of Beat-L mania and so

while listening to Clapton UnPlugged nobody knows you when you're down

and out (in Paris or London or Phoenix) I hit a few buttons and must've

hit Some of the right ones cuz i'm here again ((((at least i think i

am)))))

 

so did i miss anything while i was incommunicado?

 

david rhaesa (race)

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:04:53 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: New Kerouac Translations

In-Reply-To:  <199712282055.OAA14973@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Buona giornata a tutti,

 

at the right moment, in Italy is out (september 97)

an abridged edition of "Jack Kerouac-Selected Letters 1040-1959)"

(c) 1995 the Estate of stella Kerouac, John Sampas,

Literary Representative. Notes copyright (c) Ann Charters,1995

 

the italian named Jack Kerouac "Letter dalla Beat Generation",

translated by Silvia Piraccini,

published by Arnoldo Mondadori Editore S.p.A. Milano

(a Silvio Berlusconi's publishing house).

Luckily the book is a paperback edition (lire italiane 9000

value approximately 3 $).

Info on Internet

http://www.mondadori.com/libri

 

saluti,

Rinaldo.

--------

At 14.55 28/12/97 -0600, Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:

>Kerouac's reputation and acceptance as an important writer continues to

>spread around the world.  He is now been translated into two additional

>languages - Turkish and Hebrew.

> 

>The books are:

> 

>Yolda (On The Road) published in Istanbul by Kiyi

> 

>ha-Hatranim (The Subterraneans) published in Tel Aviv by Geranim

> 

> 

>Irving Leif

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:12:11 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Jim Rhaesa wrote:

> 

> This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie

> Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in

> Phoenix.

> 

> OR

> 

> It's just a way of saying hello to friends around here and there.

> 

yes you did, great to hear fromyou, happy monday. I was almost silehnt

patricia

> 

> so did i miss anything while i was incommunicado?

> 

> david rhaesa (race)

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 01:38:29 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

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> RACE wrote:

> 

> This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie

> Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in

> Phoenix.

 

It has been very quiet here on the beat-l.  What did Maggie Cassidy have

to say to you about the peculiarities of existence?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:08:40 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

In-Reply-To:  <34A7CBDB.E22@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

patricia wrote:

>Jim Rhaesa wrote:

>> 

>> This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie

>> Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in

>> Phoenix.

>> 

>> OR

>> 

>> It's just a way of saying hello to friends around here and there.

>> 

>yes you did, great to hear fromyou, happy monday. I was almost silehnt

>patricia

>> 

>> so did i miss anything while i was incommunicado?

>> 

>> david rhaesa (race)

> 

        -

        -

        -

        -

        -odetosatori-            -yr white pointed shoes-

        just now the-            -you are eating spaghetti

        take away re-             in the midnite on the boat

        staurant chi-            -yr wind yr wind

        nese in fron-            -the sky u never NEVER u'll see

        t of my wind-            -an old car

        ow has light-            -a new car

        on red lante-            -

        rns swaying -            -

        cuz the wind-            -

        29 december -            -poesy is over for u

        after noon m-            -

        y mind is my-            -a prayer

        body my brai-            -how many diabetics on

        n an electri-             the autumnal parking lot

        c transforme-             one hundred!

        r blades of -            -electric sound in yr

        copper wrapp-             mind my brother

        ed day after-            -every day so tiny

        day after da-            -

        y cut! born!-            -no one scream

        dead! i'm li-            -electric stream

        stening the -            -7 seven days

        radio & look-            -

        ing at the s-            -

        ky a bit fog-            .

        gy the-

        day is-

        hardly-

        over t-

        he rad-

        io tel-

        ls who-

        i am w-

        hooo i-

        am    -

        da-

        y -

        af-

        te-

        r -

        da-

        y -

        -

        -

        -

cos'altro si puo' dire alla fine di una

giornata invernale? le ombre della nott

e stanno gia' avvicinandosi, cos'e' un

satori a parigi, a londra, a phoenix, o

qui a mestre the cyber venicesque other

side of the moon world?

        -

        -

        -

        r

        i

        n

        a

        l

        d

        o

        -

        -

        -

beat heart beat heart beat heart beat heart

        -

        -

        -

SCREEEEEEEAMM! ode to-day       ODE TO-DAY!

        -

        -

        THE

E L E C T R I C

T R A N S F O R M E R

        -

        -

        -

is well working in the factory

        -

        -

        -

a tribute to d.r.

        -

        -

        -

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:03:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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on a chill wind day,

mourning as a way to weave mortality and time.

i hear rinaldos voice,

beacon to encourage my provincial dance

on

cosmopolition streets.

poems drip from his nose,

odes from his toes,

prose swim in his irises

his tom sawyer voice

yelling come jump in the river

listen to this.

tribute to rinaldo

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:27:05 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      hello from california

Content-Type: text/plain

 

hey there all beat-ls

i haven't had the time to write much, but would like to tell you all

happy new year and a damned fine good one it should all be! leon has

been showing me the sights, and sherri's birthday party atnorth beach

was a blast, the redwoods, the salvation army thrift store where i

bought my dr sax raincoat, all so much happening. even went on my first

roller coaster ride in my life ALONE!!!

i'm journaling like mad, hoping in a few weeeks after return to have

some interesting things to write. for now, old fashioned fountain pen

and notebook loggin all thoughts and adventures.

mc

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:41:17 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: New Kerouac Translations

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Rinaldo,

 

Thank you greatly for this info and for being so kind to bring it to my

attention. This is important for my ongoing work on a new bibliography.

 

Irving

 

 

At 04:04 PM 12/29/97 +0100, you wrote:

>Buona giornata a tutti,

> 

>at the right moment, in Italy is out (september 97)

>an abridged edition of "Jack Kerouac-Selected Letters 1040-1959)"

>(c) 1995 the Estate of stella Kerouac, John Sampas,

>Literary Representative. Notes copyright (c) Ann Charters,1995

> 

>the italian named Jack Kerouac "Letter dalla Beat Generation",

>translated by Silvia Piraccini,

>published by Arnoldo Mondadori Editore S.p.A. Milano

>(a Silvio Berlusconi's publishing house).

>Luckily the book is a paperback edition (lire italiane 9000

>value approximately 3 $).

>Info on Internet

>http://www.mondadori.com/libri

> 

>saluti,

>Rinaldo.

>--------

>At 14.55 28/12/97 -0600, Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:

>>Kerouac's reputation and acceptance as an important writer continues to

>>spread around the world.  He is now been translated into two additional

>>languages - Turkish and Hebrew.

>> 

>>The books are:

>> 

>>Yolda (On The Road) published in Istanbul by Kiyi

>> 

>>ha-Hatranim (The Subterraneans) published in Tel Aviv by Geranim

>> 

>> 

>>Irving Leif

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:23:53 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

Hey Race

              Sounds like one of my flights! Hope the satori was good. Gotta

take em where you find em!

                              GT

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:36:01 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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GTL1951 wrote:

 

> Hey Race

>               Sounds like one of my flights! Hope the satori was good. Gotta

> take em where you find em!

>                               GT

 

the flight crew was damn amusing.  so worried about liability that they're

hopping around like headless chickens.

 

Phoenix is a warm and wonderful place where cactus grow three thousand feet in

the air.

 

Satori is always good.

 

david rhaesa

in mesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:37:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: hello from california

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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marie countyman wrote:

 

> hey there all beat-ls

 

> the salvation army thrift store where i

> bought my dr sax raincoat,

 

HEY!  I think that's my missing Raincoat!!!

 

david rhaesa

in mesa

 

 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:38:35 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> his tom sawyer voice

> yelling come jump in the river

> listen to this.

 

i'll be huck and we can go to our funerals together

 

david rhaesa

in mesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:40:19 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> patricia wrote:

> >Jim Rhaesa wrote:

> >>

> >> This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie

> >> Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in

> >> Phoenix.

> >>

> >> OR

> >>

> >> It's just a way of saying hello to friends around here and there.

> >>

> >yes you did, great to hear fromyou, happy monday. I was almost silehnt

> >patricia

> >>

> >> so did i miss anything while i was incommunicado?

> >>

> >> david rhaesa (race)

> >

>         -

>         -

>         -

>         -

>         -odetosatori-            -yr white pointed shoes-

>         just now the-            -you are eating spaghetti

>         take away re-             in the midnite on the boat

>         staurant chi-            -yr wind yr wind

>         nese in fron-            -the sky u never NEVER u'll see

>         t of my wind-            -an old car

>         ow has light-            -a new car

>         on red lante-            -

>         rns swaying -            -

>         cuz the wind-            -

>         29 december -            -poesy is over for u

>         after noon m-            -

>         y mind is my-            -a prayer

>         body my brai-            -how many diabetics on

>         n an electri-             the autumnal parking lot

>         c transforme-             one hundred!

>         r blades of -            -electric sound in yr

>         copper wrapp-             mind my brother

>         ed day after-            -every day so tiny

>         day after da-            -

>         y cut! born!-            -no one scream

>         dead! i'm li-            -electric stream

>         stening the -            -7 seven days

>         radio & look-            -

>         ing at the s-            -

>         ky a bit fog-            .

>         gy the-

>         day is-

>         hardly-

>         over t-

>         he rad-

>         io tel-

>         ls who-

>         i am w-

>         hooo i-

>         am    -

>         da-

>         y -

>         af-

>         te-

>         r -

>         da-

>         y -

>         -

>         -

>         -

> cos'altro si puo' dire alla fine di una

> giornata invernale? le ombre della nott

> e stanno gia' avvicinandosi, cos'e' un

> satori a parigi, a londra, a phoenix, o

> qui a mestre the cyber venicesque other

> side of the moon world?

>         -

>         -

>         -

>         r

>         i

>         n

>         a

>         l

>         d

>         o

>         -

>         -

>         -

> beat heart beat heart beat heart beat heart

>         -

>         -

>         -

> SCREEEEEEEAMM! ode to-day       ODE TO-DAY!

>         -

>         -

>         THE

> E L E C T R I C

> T R A N S F O R M E R

>         -

>         -

>         -

> is well working in the factory

>         -

>         -

>         -

> a tribute to d.r.

>         -

>         -

>         -

 

 

wonderfulbeautifulloveitmagnificantspinsmysynapsesgottaloveyourwordskeepontyping

 gogogo

 

david rhaesa

in mesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:40:47 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

i'm lost. what exactly is satori that it's so great? i thought it was just a

book or something. anyone care to enlighten me?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:41:42 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

nothing and nobody in life are a sure thing.

 

david rhaesa

in mesa

 

Diane Carter wrote:

 

> > RACE wrote:

> >

> > This thread involves the peculiarities of existence finishing Maggie

> > Cassidy and beginning Satori in Paris while spending the holidays in

> > Phoenix.

> 

> It has been very quiet here on the beat-l.  What did Maggie Cassidy have

> to say to you about the peculiarities of existence?

> DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:44:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Personal to Michael Nally

In-Reply-To:  <8b5765b3.34a53fdf@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Michael,

 

Neither of your email addresses work. Keep bouncing.

 

Yes, go ahead, use "Sunlight Dies With The Roses" as you wish. I look

forward to seeing the end result. Checked out your site. Looks like it'll

be a good one.

 

Glenn.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:53:59 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Burgwine <Burgwine@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      No Subject

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

If at all possible, could you subscribe me to your mailing list?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:49:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Aeronwytru wrote:

 

> i'm lost. what exactly is satori that it's so great? i thought it was just a

> book or something. anyone care to enlighten me?

 

"Somewhere during my ten days in Paris (AND Brittany) [and could easily have

been Phoenix AND Mesa] I received an illumination of some kind that seems to've

changed me again, towards what I suppose'll be my pattern for another seven

years or more: a SATORI: the Japanese word for 'sudden illumination,' 'sudden

awakening' or simply 'kick in the eye.'  Whatever, something DID happen and in

my first reveries after the trip and I'm back home regrouping ...."  Jack

Kerouac, Satori in Paris, p.1

 

Can't enlighten ya further - better to find out for yerself.  Experience your

own satori and tell us all how it smelled!

 

So does anyone have insight on the difference between satori as used here and

epiphany as used elsewhere?

 

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:19:59 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

 

in my Oxford Dictionary epiphany involves the appearance of a god or

demi-god.  satori either doesn't involve any gods or may, but doesn't have

to.  depends on which form of Buddhism, i suppose.

 

ciao, sherri

-----Original Message-----

From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 9:10 PM

Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix

 

 

>Aeronwytru wrote:

> 

>> i'm lost. what exactly is satori that it's so great? i thought it was

just a

>> book or something. anyone care to enlighten me?

> 

>"Somewhere during my ten days in Paris (AND Brittany) [and could easily

have

>been Phoenix AND Mesa] I received an illumination of some kind that seems

to've

>changed me again, towards what I suppose'll be my pattern for another seven

>years or more: a SATORI: the Japanese word for 'sudden illumination,'

'sudden

>awakening' or simply 'kick in the eye.'  Whatever, something DID happen and

in

>my first reveries after the trip and I'm back home regrouping ...."  Jack

>Kerouac, Satori in Paris, p.1

> 

>Can't enlighten ya further - better to find out for yerself.  Experience

your

>own satori and tell us all how it smelled!

> 

>So does anyone have insight on the difference between satori as used here

and

>epiphany as used elsewhere?

> 

>david

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:37:20 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mary Maconnell <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>

Subject:      New/"Kerouac:  The Essence of Jack"

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

Hi.  I'm new to the list and probably shouldn't be posting until I sit and

read letters for a few days but I'm posting nonetheless.  I've read Jack

and loved him but what spurred me to join a mailing list was this show I

caught in Seattle:  "Kerouac: The Essence of Jack."  Probably some of you

have seen it and know what I'm talking about.  Vincent Balestri performs

this one-man show where he plays Jack and *IS* Jack.  I'm not going to

be unpurposefully redundant in telling you all about it because it's

probably already been discussed here.  But I was amazed and mesmerized

and it was the best live theater thing I have ever seen in my life.

 

So I'm glad there's a mailing list for this and so far I've read really

great things and I'm looking forward to reading even more.  :)

 

Mary

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:35:18 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Race wrote:

> 

> so did i miss anything while i was incommunicado?

> 

> David

 

Missed almost nothing as far as I can tell--but then I was incommunicado for

a long time to.  Good to have you back, and with a recent satori--even

better.  Just make sure you eat the right cactus!

 

James

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:45:12 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

"Beat Zen" is something that we all I think need to watch out for.  It's

wonderful that Kerouac and Gary Snyder and Alan Watts and all those brilliant

poetic angels with Western origins developed a penchant for Buddhism,

especially Zen..but I think there was a huge gap inherent in this Beat Zen

(especially in Kerouac's arena), and we should all exercise caution when

throwing around our Zen Buddhist phrases.  Thru Time Zen monks in the Far East

have practiced, studied sutras, and gone half-mad on the path to experiencing

bodhi, or satori, or enlightenment (and Gautama Buddha himself, well we know

what ordeals preceded his "satori") and these are people whose lives were

wholly devoted to the experience of their Buddhism, down to the last teacup.

It's fantastic to experience insights into our own lives, especially when on

the road, and I give props to all who see deeper into themselves, I give holy

praises (to people like this cat who just got back...name David?)because we

all should be feeling insights into where and who and why we are...but I just

feel and have felt for a while that Kerouac's use of the word satori should

perhaps be taken lightly, more lightly perhaps than D.T. Suzuki's (or another

East-West Zen master's ) use of the word.  I am in love with Kerouac's

writings but I still feel a bit cynical about his Zen...partly because I know

that I'm constantly equating myself and my own situations to Jack's (regarding

his thoughts on Zen), and I feel that the Zen about which he wrote and which

he experienced, and which I often believe to experience, is, i don't

know...there's some dualism which shouldn't be there, some lack of humility,

something entirely too Western and empty, or perhaps not empty enough.

A.C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:35:57 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Allen Ginsberg & Ronald Reagan.

In-Reply-To:  <199712291841.MAA08366@dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

...

<<Ah love is so sweet in the Spring time,>>

       Jeanette McDonald sang

              three decades ago

       on marble balustrade in giant darkness

       downtown Paterson Fabian Theater balcony

       I wept, How soft flesh is-

Watching boyish Ronald Reagan

         emote

             his shadow

                  across the 'Thirties

                         Same black vastness

                                  pierced

                                      by emotion

          melancholy toward the stars-

Political planets whirling round the Sun,

...

a fragment by Allen Ginsberg, IRON HORSE, 22-23th july 1966.

 

the above fragment from IRON HORSE is nice as a back to

the future plot where Ginsberg in the Fabian (leftist society)

weeps for the future political planet of ronald reagan (the

'81-'89 Us of America president)

 

saluti,

Rinaldo

-------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:38:02 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

seems like what your saying here might make a bit of sense.  least something to

dream about a bit over my morning coffee as my brother's cats -- precious and

bob-cat fondle my legs.  Wondering if you find "any" Western uses of Zen phrases

reasonable.  I have to say I feel an uneasiness squirm in my stomach at the

 number

of "zenishistic" books at the Mall bookstores of America and think of the vast

uses and misuses of phrases and words in a viral departure from traditional

meanings.

 

VegasDaddy wrote:

 

> "Beat Zen" is something that we all I think need to watch out for.  It's

> wonderful that Kerouac and Gary Snyder and Alan Watts and all those brilliant

> poetic angels with Western origins developed a penchant for Buddhism,

> especially Zen.

 

I think that my penchant probably began with Watts but I found more interesting

accounts in the writings of Blyth, Herrigel(sp?), and Suzuki.  While i didn't

bring it on this trip, Blyth's "Games ZenMasters Play" is hilarious in many

regards.  But I think that it is easy for us to attempt to gain "satori" or some

other word by imagining or replaying the path of another found in a book and i

think this is an error of sorts.  Of course, we might happen along the way by a

repetitive pattern, but it seems that the experience which pops one's mind past

certain points on the perceptual map is usually unusual -- it isn't the usual

 path

of another because the experience has a peculiar and particular flavour (and

 odour

<grin>) for each person -- and for each moment of it.

 

I've had some difficulty in seeing the Zen in GS's writings.  I can imagine that

certain experiences in the natural world might bring some kick in one's

 awareness

-- and every so often a cricket's song will whack my ear just right -- but the

writing seems to me at least just propaganda against contemporary culture more

than accounts of illumination in the natural world.

 

 

> .but I think there was a huge gap inherent in this Beat Zen

> (especially in Kerouac's arena), and we should all exercise caution when

> throwing around our Zen Buddhist phrases.

 

I imagine you have something here with regards to Jack's uses.  It seems that JK

-- and one of the things I enjoy most about him -- was willing to take ideas,

notions, words and whatnot and make them his own and put them to his own uses.

Soooooo if one is interested in strict and cautionary use of language JK would

 not

be a primer of the path probably.  But - this irreverance on his part might be

 one

of the conditions required for sliding (or zooming) past the viral control of

certain words in the world today.

 

 

> Thru Time Zen monks in the Far East

> have practiced, studied sutras, and gone half-mad on the path to experiencing

> bodhi, or satori, or enlightenment (and Gautama Buddha himself, well we know

> what ordeals preceded his "satori") and these are people whose lives were

> wholly devoted to the experience of their Buddhism, down to the last teacup.

 

Teacup! -- beautiful and flower arranging and this and that and watching Alice

with my niece and nephew I'd probably suggest the half mad art of hat-wearing

 (of

which i'm closer to the angle of illumination than with tea, flowers, or

archery)...

 

 

> It's fantastic to experience insights into our own lives, especially when on

> the road, and I give props to all who see deeper into themselves, I give holy

> praises (to people like this cat who just got back...name David?)because we

> all should be feeling insights into where and who and why we are.

 

backtoya with the praises (but not so holy) for these thoughts (from

 David?race?)

insights into How we are can be nice as well.

 

 

> ..but I just

> feel and have felt for a while that Kerouac's use of the word satori should

> perhaps be taken lightly, more lightly perhaps than D.T. Suzuki's (or another

> East-West Zen master's ) use of the word.

 

And so where would you recommend one turn - or to whom?  Are you saying that the

bridge between the experiences of East-West socio-culture are too vast to

translate from East to West or West to East --- not just in words but in deeds

 and

attitude/orientation it would seem?  Where does this leave us in the art of

how-ing our experiences.

 

 

> I am in love with Kerouac's

> writings but I still feel a bit cynical about his Zen...partly because I know

> that I'm constantly equating myself and my own situations to Jack's (regarding

> his thoughts on Zen), and I feel that the Zen about which he wrote and which

> he experienced, and which I often believe to experience, is, i don't

> know...there's some dualism which shouldn't be there, some lack of humility,

> something entirely too Western and empty, or perhaps not empty enough.

> A.C.

 

 

something entirely too Western and empty or perhaps not empty enough -

i think that is REALLY funny.  it's so easy to slam and scream at the emptiness

 of

living in Phoenix or the Plains and then turn in hope of an emptiness that is

BETTER or MORE EMPTY.  The slamming and screaming seem to be the lack of

 humility

-- and sometimes it feels that way about any writing as well (or is that just an

excuse for slow output on other projects?) .... when the screaming fades would

 the

illuminati of Western emptiness be so horrible ---and to draw on Rinaldo's

Ginsberg/Reagan post --- this probably extends as far as Ronnie.  Or as far back

as Ike tied to Burroughs in a letter ...

 

and if you tried to understand any of this ... well ... that was your choice.

 

david rhaesa (race)

coffee tastes the same

in Mesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:50:09 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

as i recall from some years back OED usually gives the context (in tiny tiny

tiny print) and i was wondering from where they drew these meanings for epiphany

and satori.............

 

david rhaesa (race)

looking for Abraxas in Mesa

 

sherri wrote:

 

> in my Oxford Dictionary epiphany involves the appearance of a god or

> demi-god.  satori either doesn't involve any gods or may, but doesn't have

> to.  depends on which form of Buddhism, i suppose.

> 

> ciao, sherri

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 9:10 PM

> Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix

> 

> >Aeronwytru wrote:

> >

> >> i'm lost. what exactly is satori that it's so great? i thought it was

> just a

> >> book or something. anyone care to enlighten me?

> >

> >"Somewhere during my ten days in Paris (AND Brittany) [and could easily

> have

> >been Phoenix AND Mesa] I received an illumination of some kind that seems

> to've

> >changed me again, towards what I suppose'll be my pattern for another seven

> >years or more: a SATORI: the Japanese word for 'sudden illumination,'

> 'sudden

> >awakening' or simply 'kick in the eye.'  Whatever, something DID happen and

> in

> >my first reveries after the trip and I'm back home regrouping ...."  Jack

> >Kerouac, Satori in Paris, p.1

> >

> >Can't enlighten ya further - better to find out for yerself.  Experience

> your

> >own satori and tell us all how it smelled!

> >

> >So does anyone have insight on the difference between satori as used here

> and

> >epiphany as used elsewhere?

> >

> >david

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:31:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Permutation poems

Comments: cc: Florian Cramer <cantsin@ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SGI.3.96.971227210531.18998A-100000@komma.fddi2.fu-berlin.de>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 27 Dec 1997, Florian Cramer wrote:

 

> took me long until I stumbled over information that Brion Gysin wrote

> "permutation poems" around 1960. This is highly interesting for me, since

> it was the same time when Raymond Queneau wrote his permuting "100.000

> Billion Poems" and when the information theorist Abraham A. Moles

> published his "Manifesto of Permutation Art".

 

There are Gysin permutation poems in _The Exterminator_, which was

published in 1960:

 

TITLE: The exterminator / William Burroughs, Brion Gysin. -

IMPRINT: San Francisco : Auerhahn Press, 1960.

NOTES: Narrative and poems. * Poems and calligraphs by Brion Gysin.

LANGUAGE: eng

PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: 51 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.

ASSOCIATED NAME(S): Gysin, Brion. * Haselwood, Dave L. - Book designer. *

          Haselwood, Dave L. - Printer. * McIlroy, James F. - Printer. *

          Auerhahn Press - Private Press.

 

This was the first "cut-up" work Burroughs and Gysin published in

collaboration, although it came after the publication of _Minutes to Go_,

which also included work by Sinclair Beiles, and Gregory Corso. I haven't

yet read _Minutes to Go_, so I don't know if there are permutation poems

in there (anyone?), although I imagine there is, since that was extent of

his poetic contribution to The Exterminator (excepting, of course, the

calligraphic work):

 

TITLE: Minutes to go [by] Sinclair Beiles [and others.]

PUBLISHED: [Paris The English Bookshop] [c1960]

PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: 63p.

SERIES: Two cities editions

 

There was a second edition that I am told is identical to the first (which

cannot be said for many books Burroughs has been involved with):

 

TITLE: Minutes to go [by] Sinclair Beiles [and others]

PUBLISHED: [San Francisco] Beach Books, Texts & Documents [c1968]

PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: 63p.

 

I vaguely remember hearing that a permutation of Gysin's phrase "Rub out

the Word" appeared in _Minutes to Go_ but I'd check with someone who's

read the book. There are also recordings of Gysin reading his permutation

poems, including "Kick that Habit Man", "Junk is No Good Baby" and some

others.

 

As for finding the above books, if you wanted to buy them, you'd have to

shell out anywhere between $85 to $200 American dollars for The

Exterminator, and I've seen the first edition of Minutes to Go at a wide

range of prices from $100 to $250, and the second edition at around

$40-$80.

 

> You might also be interested

> to hear that the "fold-in" method was prototyped in a novel by Marc

> Saporta which appeared in the early 1960s.

 

Can you give a reference where I could find information about this?

The first book Burroughs wrote/assembled using fold-in texts-- _The Soft

Machine_ -- appeared in 1961 from The Olympia Press in Paris.

 

> It seems like the mutual

> influences on the development of combinatory/permutational literature in

> early 1960s France (where I guess Gysin was living at that time) still

> needs to be researched, in case I'm not telling you old stories here.

 

Certainly does. The 100,000 sonnet book gets a lot of attention from

people doing work on hypertext theory and literature. And yes, both

Burroughs and Gysin were living in Paris in the early 60's.

 

> Hence my question: Are Gysin's "permutation poems" published in books?

 

Yes, the one's above.

 

> Are there any essays or commentaries about them?

 

I haven't seen any.

 

> In the Web, I found information that Gysin created these poems with the

> help of a computer; however, the Web page didn't mention the source of

> this information, so I'm a bit suspicious.

 

I can't confirm that this is true, or offer a source (other than the

Burroughs bio's), but both Burroughs and Gysin worked with Ian

Sommerville, a computer scientist from Britain, on tape recorder

experiments, so it is possible that he helped Gysin with his

permutations.

 

> Did Gysin make any statements about his permutational poetry in

> interviews?

 

The best books to look into are _Here to Go: Planet R-101_ which is

constructed as a series of interviews with Gysin, _Brion Gysin Let the

Mice In_ ,  and _Man from Nowhere: Storming the Citadels of

Enlightenment_. Mike Cakebread might be able to tell you if there's

anything about permutations in the Man from Nowhere book (Mike?)

 

> ... It seems really difficult

> researching this, since most of Gysin's books are small press and out of

> print

 

Yup, it sure is hard. I don't know what it's like in Europe, but decent

university libraries in N. America should have most of these books. For

instance, The University of Toronto libraries have all of the books I've

mentioned except for Man from Nowhere, although many of them are kept in

the rare book collection. I don't know if they do

inter-(continental)library loans though.

 

> and I guess that the majority of Gysin criticism has been published

> in the underground press.

 

There was a chap-book published for Burroughs' 80th birthday that had a

piece that took the oft-cited words of Hassan I Sabbah "Nothing

is True. Everything is Permitted" and transformed them into "Nothing is

True. Everything is Permuted". I'll check it out next time I'm at the

homestead to see if it's of interest.

 

Hope I've been of some assistance.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:36:34 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)

 

while i like to see neither misuse of nor pablum philosophy - a philosophy

or religion is dead if it does not continue to evolve as humankind learns.

for zen to deny any great western insights or experiences, and there are

some, would mean that zen was getting in its own way, which would mean it

would be denying one of its own precepts:  "if you meet the Buddha, kill

him".

 

paix, sherri

-----Original Message-----

From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 4:48 AM

Subject: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)

 

 

>seems like what your saying here might make a bit of sense.  least

something to

>dream about a bit over my morning coffee as my brother's cats -- precious

and

>bob-cat fondle my legs.  Wondering if you find "any" Western uses of Zen

phrases

>reasonable.  I have to say I feel an uneasiness squirm in my stomach at the

> number

>of "zenishistic" books at the Mall bookstores of America and think of the

vast

>uses and misuses of phrases and words in a viral departure from traditional

>meanings.

> 

>VegasDaddy wrote:

> 

>> "Beat Zen" is something that we all I think need to watch out for.  It's

>> wonderful that Kerouac and Gary Snyder and Alan Watts and all those

brilliant

>> poetic angels with Western origins developed a penchant for Buddhism,

>> especially Zen.

> 

>I think that my penchant probably began with Watts but I found more

interesting

>accounts in the writings of Blyth, Herrigel(sp?), and Suzuki.  While i

didn't

>bring it on this trip, Blyth's "Games ZenMasters Play" is hilarious in many

>regards.  But I think that it is easy for us to attempt to gain "satori" or

some

>other word by imagining or replaying the path of another found in a book

and i

>think this is an error of sorts.  Of course, we might happen along the way

by a

>repetitive pattern, but it seems that the experience which pops one's mind

past

>certain points on the perceptual map is usually unusual -- it isn't the

usual

> path

>of another because the experience has a peculiar and particular flavour

(and

> odour

><grin>) for each person -- and for each moment of it.

> 

>I've had some difficulty in seeing the Zen in GS's writings.  I can imagine

that

>certain experiences in the natural world might bring some kick in one's

> awareness

>-- and every so often a cricket's song will whack my ear just right -- but

the

>writing seems to me at least just propaganda against contemporary culture

more

>than accounts of illumination in the natural world.

> 

> 

>> .but I think there was a huge gap inherent in this Beat Zen

>> (especially in Kerouac's arena), and we should all exercise caution when

>> throwing around our Zen Buddhist phrases.

> 

>I imagine you have something here with regards to Jack's uses.  It seems

that JK

>-- and one of the things I enjoy most about him -- was willing to take

ideas,

>notions, words and whatnot and make them his own and put them to his own

uses.

>Soooooo if one is interested in strict and cautionary use of language JK

would

> not

>be a primer of the path probably.  But - this irreverance on his part might

be

> one

>of the conditions required for sliding (or zooming) past the viral control

of

>certain words in the world today.

> 

> 

>> Thru Time Zen monks in the Far East

>> have practiced, studied sutras, and gone half-mad on the path to

experiencing

>> bodhi, or satori, or enlightenment (and Gautama Buddha himself, well we

know

>> what ordeals preceded his "satori") and these are people whose lives were

>> wholly devoted to the experience of their Buddhism, down to the last

teacup.

> 

>Teacup! -- beautiful and flower arranging and this and that and watching

Alice

>with my niece and nephew I'd probably suggest the half mad art of

hat-wearing

> (of

>which i'm closer to the angle of illumination than with tea, flowers, or

>archery)...

> 

> 

>> It's fantastic to experience insights into our own lives, especially when

on

>> the road, and I give props to all who see deeper into themselves, I give

holy

>> praises (to people like this cat who just got back...name David?)because

we

>> all should be feeling insights into where and who and why we are.

> 

>backtoya with the praises (but not so holy) for these thoughts (from

> David?race?)

>insights into How we are can be nice as well.

> 

> 

>> ..but I just

>> feel and have felt for a while that Kerouac's use of the word satori

should

>> perhaps be taken lightly, more lightly perhaps than D.T. Suzuki's (or

another

>> East-West Zen master's ) use of the word.

> 

>And so where would you recommend one turn - or to whom?  Are you saying

that the

>bridge between the experiences of East-West socio-culture are too vast to

>translate from East to West or West to East --- not just in words but in

deeds

> and

>attitude/orientation it would seem?  Where does this leave us in the art of

>how-ing our experiences.

> 

> 

>> I am in love with Kerouac's

>> writings but I still feel a bit cynical about his Zen...partly because I

know

>> that I'm constantly equating myself and my own situations to Jack's

(regarding

>> his thoughts on Zen), and I feel that the Zen about which he wrote and

which

>> he experienced, and which I often believe to experience, is, i don't

>> know...there's some dualism which shouldn't be there, some lack of

humility,

>> something entirely too Western and empty, or perhaps not empty enough.

>> A.C.

> 

> 

>something entirely too Western and empty or perhaps not empty enough -

>i think that is REALLY funny.  it's so easy to slam and scream at the

emptiness

> of

>living in Phoenix or the Plains and then turn in hope of an emptiness that

is

>BETTER or MORE EMPTY.  The slamming and screaming seem to be the lack of

> humility

>-- and sometimes it feels that way about any writing as well (or is that

just an

>excuse for slow output on other projects?) .... when the screaming fades

would

> the

>illuminati of Western emptiness be so horrible ---and to draw on Rinaldo's

>Ginsberg/Reagan post --- this probably extends as far as Ronnie.  Or as far

back

>as Ike tied to Burroughs in a letter ...

> 

>and if you tried to understand any of this ... well ... that was your

choice.

> 

>david rhaesa (race)

>coffee tastes the same

>in Mesa

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:37:47 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

 

epiphany: 'Mid Eng from Greek epiphaneia 'manifestation', from epiphaino,

'reveal'

 

satori:  Japanese, 'awakening'

 

so it seems to me one could use the word epiphany in place of satori, but

the sense could be misunderstood. plus epiphany carries the sense that

someone or thing outside the self originated the experience, which satori

does not seem to imply.

 

ciao, sherri

-----Original Message-----

From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 4:50 AM

Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix

 

 

>as i recall from some years back OED usually gives the context (in tiny

tiny

>tiny print) and i was wondering from where they drew these meanings for

epiphany

>and satori.............

> 

>david rhaesa (race)

>looking for Abraxas in Mesa

> 

>sherri wrote:

> 

>> in my Oxford Dictionary epiphany involves the appearance of a god or

>> demi-god.  satori either doesn't involve any gods or may, but doesn't

have

>> to.  depends on which form of Buddhism, i suppose.

>> 

>> ciao, sherri

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

>> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>> Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 9:10 PM

>> Subject: Re: Satori in Phoenix

>> 

>> >Aeronwytru wrote:

>> >

>> >> i'm lost. what exactly is satori that it's so great? i thought it was

>> just a

>> >> book or something. anyone care to enlighten me?

>> >

>> >"Somewhere during my ten days in Paris (AND Brittany) [and could easily

>> have

>> >been Phoenix AND Mesa] I received an illumination of some kind that

seems

>> to've

>> >changed me again, towards what I suppose'll be my pattern for another

seven

>> >years or more: a SATORI: the Japanese word for 'sudden illumination,'

>> 'sudden

>> >awakening' or simply 'kick in the eye.'  Whatever, something DID happen

and

>> in

>> >my first reveries after the trip and I'm back home regrouping ...."

Jack

>> >Kerouac, Satori in Paris, p.1

>> >

>> >Can't enlighten ya further - better to find out for yerself.  Experience

>> your

>> >own satori and tell us all how it smelled!

>> >

>> >So does anyone have insight on the difference between satori as used

here

>> and

>> >epiphany as used elsewhere?

>> >

>> >david

>> >

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:03:22 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      BeatSuperNovaUpdated

In-Reply-To:  <199712291841.MAA08366@dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Return-Path: <npk@powertech.no>

>Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:41:12 +0100

>From: Nicholas Knutsen <npk@powertech.no>

>To: rasa@gpnet.it

>Subject: New beats for the list

> 

>How about JIM JARMUSCH, a filmmaker who is very influenced by the beat

>style. And he works a lot with Tom Waits, and also JOHN LURIE, a

>musician who is not on your list either.

>And then there's LOU REED...

> 

>Nick

> 

>--

>--==--==--==--

> 

>-- Mork, Where'd you get the dead Mindys..?

>-- They're not dead, Mind. It's just my personal pile of perkiness.

> 

 

Nick, much thanks!

 

tante grazie for yr help to improve the beat web site,

i've added John Lurie to the list of beats,

have a happy new year!

 

saluti cari,

Rinaldo.

--------

p.s. i posted in the following url a picture of John Lurie (photographed

by Wim Wender)

 

http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/lurie_john_at_soho.html

 

 

----------------------------------

Beats:The List

Beat SuperNova

an absolutely shit kicking list

http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm

----------------------------------

Carl Adkins

Willie Loco Alexander

Donald Allen

Steve Allen

David Amram

Kenneth Anger

Jerry Aronson

Al Aronowitz

Mary Beach

Amari Baraka (LeRoi Jones)

Wallace Berman

Stephen Jesse Bernstein

Ted Berrigan

Paul Blackburn

Robin Blaser

Richard Brautigan

Bonnie Bremser

Ray Bremser

Chandler Brossard

Lenny Bruce

Charles Bukowski

William S. Burroughs

William S. Burroughs Jr.

John Cage

Edgar Cayce

Caleb Carr

Lucien Carr

Paul Carroll

Louis R Cartwright

Carolyn Cassady

Neal Cassady

Norris Church

Tom Clark

Andy Clausen

Leonard Cohen

Al Cohn

Bruce Conner

Gregory Corso

Robert Creeley

Henry Cru

Fielding Dawson

Jay deFeo

Robert De Niro

Diane DiPrima

John Doe

Kirby Doyle

Edward Dorn

Robert Duncan

Bob Dylan

Larry Eigner

Kenward Elmslie

William Everson (Brother Antoninus)

Mary Fabilli

Larry Fagin

Richard Farina

Lawrence Ferlinghetti

Tom Field

Charles Henry Ford

Charles Foster

Robert Frank

Allen Ginsberg

John Giorno

Paul Goodman

Robert Gover

James Grauerholz

Morris Graves

Emmet Grogan

Brion Gysin

Howard Hart

Dave Hazelwood

Wally Hedrick

Abbie Hoffman

John Clellon Holmes

Herbert Huncke

Evan Hunter

William Inge

Robinson Jeffers

Ted Joans

Joyce Johnson

Lenore Kandel

John Kelly

Robert Kelly

Jack Kerouac

Jan Kerouac

Ken Kesey

Franz Kline

Seymour Krim

Paul Krassner

Art Kunkin

Tuli Kupferberg

Joanne Kyger

La Loca

Philip Lamantia

Jay Landesman

Fran Landesman

James Laughlin

Denise Levertov

Timothy Leary

Alfred Leslie

Lawrence Lipton

Ron Loewinsohn

Gerald Locklin

Philomene Long

Malcom Lowry

John Lurie

Bill MacNeill

Norman Mailer

Gerard Malanga

Edward Marshall

Peter Martin

Lewis McAdams

Joanna McClure

Michael McClure

Fred McDarrah

Don McNeill

Taylor Mead

David Meltzer

Jack Micheline

Henry Miller

John Montgomery

Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao

Ken Nordine

Harold Norse

Frank O'Hara

David Ohle

Charles Olson

Peter Orlovsky

Kenneth Patchen

Thomas Parkinson

Claude Pelieu

Nancy Peters

Stuart Z. Perkoff

Charles Plymell

Dan Propper

Lee Ranaldo

Lou Reed

Kenneth Rexroth

Steve Richmond

Frank Rios

Edoardo Roditi

Theodore Roethke

Hugh Romney

Michael Rumaker

Ed Sanders

Albert Saijo

Mark Schorer

Tony Scibella

Hubert Jr. Selby

Patti Smith

Gary Snyder

Carl Solomon

Terry Southern

Jack Spicer

Hunter Stockton Thompson

Bob Thiele

John Thomas

Mark Tobey

Alexander Trocchi

Giuseppe Ungaretti

Charles Upton

Janine Pommy Vega

William T. Vollmann

Tom Waits

Anne Waldman

Lewis Warsh

Alan W. Watts

Lew Welch (Lewis Barret Welch)

Philip Whalen

John Wieners

Jonathan Williams

William Carlos Williams

Clay Wilson

Ruth Witt-Diamant

James Wright

Zoot Simms

Louis Zukofsky

------------------------------

last update 30th december 1997

------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:53:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

In-Reply-To:  <5096c7dd.34a8a68a@aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, VegasDaddy wrote:

 

> "Beat Zen" is something that we all I think need to watch out for.  It's

> wonderful that Kerouac and Gary Snyder and Alan Watts and all those brilliant

> poetic angels with Western origins developed a penchant for Buddhism,

> especially Zen..but I think there was a huge gap inherent in this Beat Zen

> (especially in Kerouac's arena), and we should all exercise caution when

> throwing around our Zen Buddhist phrases.  Thru Time Zen monks in the Far East

> have practiced, studied sutras, and gone half-mad on the path to experiencing

> bodhi, or satori, or enlightenment (and Gautama Buddha himself, well we know

> what ordeals preceded his "satori") and these are people whose lives were

> wholly devoted to the experience of their Buddhism, down to the last teacup.

> It's fantastic to experience insights into our own lives, especially when on

> the road, and I give props to all who see deeper into themselves, I give holy

> praises (to people like this cat who just got back...name David?)because we

> all should be feeling insights into where and who and why we are...but I just

> feel and have felt for a while that Kerouac's use of the word satori should

> perhaps be taken lightly, more lightly perhaps than D.T. Suzuki's (or another

> East-West Zen master's ) use of the word.  I am in love with Kerouac's

> writings but I still feel a bit cynical about his Zen...partly because I know

> that I'm constantly equating myself and my own situations to Jack's (regarding

> his thoughts on Zen), and I feel that the Zen about which he wrote and which

> he experienced, and which I often believe to experience, is, i don't

> know...there's some dualism which shouldn't be there, some lack of humility,

> something entirely too Western and empty, or perhaps not empty enough.

> A.C.

> 

 

if all is emptiness (sunyata), how can something be 'not empty enough'

 

 

 

 

 

eric

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:06:43 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Satori in Phoenix

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

Hey Vegas

         I believe you have a valid point here. I also believe that what kept

JK from totally getting into a "real" Zen was his inherent hangups via Roman

Catholicism. A tough nut to break away from in any case. Satori doesnt come

cheap, if ever. If you look at it is as simple little breakthroughs i feel you

might miss the total picture. This is only my opinion, and coming from one who

has been away from Zen for 20 some years and now trying to work my way back

into it. I love Some of the Dharma but I also realize that it was written by a

man who was sorta confused when he wrote it. I think we should appreciate what

the Beats were doing when they got into Buddhism and Zen, and in the case of

Snyder, actually made a comitment to it. Also would have to include Whalen in

there. Its a hard road. I hope to finish it. Not holding my breath, then again

I am.

                                                GT

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:40:58 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: New/"Kerouac:  The Essence of Jack"

In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:37:20 -0800 from

              <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>

 

On the contrary, Mary, we haven't heard much on this play.  Any further comment

s you have will be of interest.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:43:31 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: New/"Kerouac:  The Essence of Jack"

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

Thanks to Diane DeRooy I saw the play - the Essence of Jack,  while visiting

Seattle this fall.  It was excellent.

 

It has run in Seattle, at a small theatre, the Velvet Elvis just off Pioneer

Square (the original skid row), for over a year.  I'm not sure if it is still

running, it has been held over several times.

 

It opens with a fine jazz combo.  From there it is a series of events from

Kerouac's life.  It sticks pretty close to the facts as I understand them with

some "license" when the actor gets into the rhelm of how Kerouac felt about

certain things.  The territiory is pretty familier - Gerards death, football

days,  meeting Cassidy and Ginsberg, troubles getting On The Road published,

positive and negative reactions to OTR, troubles brought on by sudden fame,

the Steve Allen show, the breakdown at Big Sur, the Merry Pranksters visit,

the alcohol soaked 60's.  Readings from various Kerouac books are sprinkled

throughout.  At the end Vincent takes questions -- mostly from

twentysomethings who know a little, but not a lot, about Kerouac.

 

I highly recommend the play to anyone visiting Seattle.

 

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:08:42 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 97-12-30 07:38:53 EST, you write:

 

<< I imagine you have something here with regards to Jack's uses.  It seems

that JK

 -- and one of the things I enjoy most about him -- was willing to take ideas,

 notions, words and whatnot and make them his own and put them to his own

uses.

 Soooooo if one is interested in strict and cautionary use of language JK

would

  not

 be a primer of the path probably.  But - this irreverance on his part might

be

  one

 of the conditions required for sliding (or zooming) past the viral control of

 certain words in the world today. >>

 

 

David - Very true, Jack's non-conformity, or "irreverance" both on and off the

page are what made him so beautiful, and as an original stylist he is

immortal.  But I don't think that he was really ever able to grasp Buddhism

beyond an intellectual level.  I think that if Jack had really had a genuine

satori, then he would not have died by the bottle.

 

As for living in Pheonix or the Plains, I don't think that would put a damper

on anyone's Zen. I just think that here in the Western world we tend to view

life very differently than they view it in the Far East, and when Americans

take Zen Buddhist concepts and play around with them, very often their Zen

becomes defiled confused and futile.  I'm not saying that a Westerner can't

practice Zen or gain new insights into Buddhism or even realize Prajna, that

is, experience satori thru seeing into their own Buddha-natures...but we

definitely tend to intellectualize these things and adapt them to our somewhat

fucked up American way of looking at things, at least when we adopt Zen.

It is one (and a wonderful) thing to gain insight into one's life.  It is

another (and not very common) thing to experience a Zen satori, to become one

with your no-mind or Unconscious, or to see into the vast emptiness of one's

own self-nature.

Tho I do hear what you're saying about irreverance to language, and I think

that you are absolutely right and most of the Time I say screw traditional

uses of words...but with Zen Buddhism I feel that we must look to the East,

and BeatZen is great but when we read it and about it I think we need to

realize that it's not true Zen teaching...

Anthony C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:31:14 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Permutation poems

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

what the heck is a permutation poem? help! i really don't know very much about

this sort of stuff and i hate not knowing things. can someone tell me what it

is in non-technical (read---> layman's) terms and send me a copy of one?

thanks so much.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:27:20 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

 

> ----------------------------------

> Beats:The List

> Beat SuperNova

> an absolutely shit kicking list

> http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm

> ----------------------------------

> 

> Michael McClure

 

i just found a copy of something called "The Beard" by MM today.  The

afterward said it was performed four times before police intervention.  I

thought that was kinda funny.  Anybody read it?

 

 

david rhaesa (race)

winding down the year in mesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:26:50 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)

In-Reply-To:  <074cc1138151ec7UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"Every healthy culture provides for there being non-joiners. Sanyassi,

hermits, drop-outs too...Every healthy society has to tolerate this... "

--Alan Watts.

i have some problems concerning why Jack Kerouac's rejected

the zen experience it seem to me zen is near the catholic feeling

of the life, rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:38:33 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971231002650.0068c89c@pop.gpnet.it>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> i have some problems concerning why Jack Kerouac's rejected

> the zen experience it seem to me zen is near the catholic feeling

> of the life, rinaldo.

 

perhaps because kerouac had so cleansed his consciousness of objectivity

and objective structures, the Nothingness of zen would have been too much

for him. his was essentially a catholic mind, and as such was more at

home in ritual and pageantry than in the zen void. he was like watts in

that - i think watts had very little affection for the void of zen ... his

wonderful _way of zen_ book turns the patriarchs and disciplies into a

colorful pageant through time anyway; has more of a mahayana / tibetan

buddhist feeling.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

 

                Find out the laws then do what you will.

                                - Susannah Thompson

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:45:53 -0800

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)

 

Anthony C. wrote:

 

>But I don't think that he was really ever able to grasp Buddhism

>beyond an intellectual level.  I think that if Jack had really had a

>genuine satori, then he would not have died by the bottle.

 

while i would agree with you that satori is probably a rather rare

experience, not just in the western world, but in all of it, i would

strongly hesitate to judge anyone else's experience.  after all, it's only

experienced within one's own nature.  who is anyone to externally judge

that?  and who's to say that dying by the bottle wasn't JK's path?  i also

never felt that Jack was attempting to be only zen.  he looked into, at

least, mahayana buddhism and hinduism and found wisdom there as well.

perhaps, he sought to find those few basic, fundamental truths which seem to

run like a golden thread throughout this world's religions and philosophies,

looking to validate and more deeply understand them.

 

ciao, sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:40:34 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Rinaldo,

 

I like the new list.  Just a few minor arguments from me (also plead

ignorance on a few)

John Cage --Black Mtn and all, but beat?--a stretch

Malcolm Lowry--wonderful writer, but definitely not beat to me

Mark Shorer--don't see that one at all either--maybe my memory is wrong but

I remember him as pretty buttoned down and un beat--

 

but these are minor disagreements.  You have done a great service and it is

a wonderful list for suggesting a lot of directions to look.

 

James Stauffer

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> >Return-Path: <npk@powertech.no>

> >Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:41:12 +0100

> >From: Nicholas Knutsen <npk@powertech.no>

> >To: rasa@gpnet.it

> >Subject: New beats for the list

> >

> >How about JIM JARMUSCH, a filmmaker who is very influenced by the beat

> >style. And he works a lot with Tom Waits, and also JOHN LURIE, a

> >musician who is not on your list either.

> >And then there's LOU REED...

> >

> >Nick

> >

> >--

> >--==--==--==--

> >

> >-- Mork, Where'd you get the dead Mindys..?

> >-- They're not dead, Mind. It's just my personal pile of perkiness.

> >

> 

> Nick, much thanks!

> 

> tante grazie for yr help to improve the beat web site,

> i've added John Lurie to the list of beats,

> have a happy new year!

> 

> saluti cari,

> Rinaldo.

> --------

> p.s. i posted in the following url a picture of John Lurie (photographed

> by Wim Wender)

> 

> http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/lurie_john_at_soho.html

> 

> ----------------------------------

> Beats:The List

> Beat SuperNova

> an absolutely shit kicking list

> http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm

> ----------------------------------

> Carl Adkins

> Willie Loco Alexander

> Donald Allen

> Steve Allen

> David Amram

> Kenneth Anger

> Jerry Aronson

> Al Aronowitz

> Mary Beach

> Amari Baraka (LeRoi Jones)

> Wallace Berman

> Stephen Jesse Bernstein

> Ted Berrigan

> Paul Blackburn

> Robin Blaser

> Richard Brautigan

> Bonnie Bremser

> Ray Bremser

> Chandler Brossard

> Lenny Bruce

> Charles Bukowski

> William S. Burroughs

> William S. Burroughs Jr.

> John Cage

> Edgar Cayce

> Caleb Carr

> Lucien Carr

> Paul Carroll

> Louis R Cartwright

> Carolyn Cassady

> Neal Cassady

> Norris Church

> Tom Clark

> Andy Clausen

> Leonard Cohen

> Al Cohn

> Bruce Conner

> Gregory Corso

> Robert Creeley

> Henry Cru

> Fielding Dawson

> Jay deFeo

> Robert De Niro

> Diane DiPrima

> John Doe

> Kirby Doyle

> Edward Dorn

> Robert Duncan

> Bob Dylan

> Larry Eigner

> Kenward Elmslie

> William Everson (Brother Antoninus)

> Mary Fabilli

> Larry Fagin

> Richard Farina

> Lawrence Ferlinghetti

> Tom Field

> Charles Henry Ford

> Charles Foster

> Robert Frank

> Allen Ginsberg

> John Giorno

> Paul Goodman

> Robert Gover

> James Grauerholz

> Morris Graves

> Emmet Grogan

> Brion Gysin

> Howard Hart

> Dave Hazelwood

> Wally Hedrick

> Abbie Hoffman

> John Clellon Holmes

> Herbert Huncke

> Evan Hunter

> William Inge

> Robinson Jeffers

> Ted Joans

> Joyce Johnson

> Lenore Kandel

> John Kelly

> Robert Kelly

> Jack Kerouac

> Jan Kerouac

> Ken Kesey

> Franz Kline

> Seymour Krim

> Paul Krassner

> Art Kunkin

> Tuli Kupferberg

> Joanne Kyger

> La Loca

> Philip Lamantia

> Jay Landesman

> Fran Landesman

> James Laughlin

> Denise Levertov

> Timothy Leary

> Alfred Leslie

> Lawrence Lipton

> Ron Loewinsohn

> Gerald Locklin

> Philomene Long

> Malcom Lowry

> John Lurie

> Bill MacNeill

> Norman Mailer

> Gerard Malanga

> Edward Marshall

> Peter Martin

> Lewis McAdams

> Joanna McClure

> Michael McClure

> Fred McDarrah

> Don McNeill

> Taylor Mead

> David Meltzer

> Jack Micheline

> Henry Miller

> John Montgomery

> Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao

> Ken Nordine

> Harold Norse

> Frank O'Hara

> David Ohle

> Charles Olson

> Peter Orlovsky

> Kenneth Patchen

> Thomas Parkinson

> Claude Pelieu

> Nancy Peters

> Stuart Z. Perkoff

> Charles Plymell

> Dan Propper

> Lee Ranaldo

> Lou Reed

> Kenneth Rexroth

> Steve Richmond

> Frank Rios

> Edoardo Roditi

> Theodore Roethke

> Hugh Romney

> Michael Rumaker

> Ed Sanders

> Albert Saijo

> Mark Schorer

> Tony Scibella

> Hubert Jr. Selby

> Patti Smith

> Gary Snyder

> Carl Solomon

> Terry Southern

> Jack Spicer

> Hunter Stockton Thompson

> Bob Thiele

> John Thomas

> Mark Tobey

> Alexander Trocchi

> Giuseppe Ungaretti

> Charles Upton

> Janine Pommy Vega

> William T. Vollmann

> Tom Waits

> Anne Waldman

> Lewis Warsh

> Alan W. Watts

> Lew Welch (Lewis Barret Welch)

> Philip Whalen

> John Wieners

> Jonathan Williams

> William Carlos Williams

> Clay Wilson

> Ruth Witt-Diamant

> James Wright

> Zoot Simms

> Louis Zukofsky

> ------------------------------

> last update 30th december 1997

> ------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:21:27 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

hey, dont you guys think Jim Carroll's beat?

i mean if you're gonna name Lou Reed and Patti Smith "beats", well then...

 

oh, and why no Dennis Hopper??????

 

-- Ginny.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:19:02 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: "BeatZen" (was Re: Satori in Phoenix)

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.BSI.3.95.971230153355.13470B-100000@global.california .com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> 

>> i have some problems concerning why Jack Kerouac's rejected

>> the zen experience it seem to me zen is near the catholic feeling

>> of the life, rinaldo.

 

At 15.38 30/12/97 -0800, Michael R. Brown wrote:

> 

>perhaps because kerouac had so cleansed his consciousness of objectivity

>and objective structures, the Nothingness of zen would have been too much

>for him. his was essentially a catholic mind, and as such was more at

>home in ritual and pageantry than in the zen void. [...]

>  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

 

michael,

i think, jack kerouac abandoned the countercultural movement

growing in the '60s (ginsberg, snyder, et cetera) for istance

he started the revisionism of the "beat" shifting the meaning

from "hey i'm beat" to "beatific" as in Saint Francesco way.

kerouac in his last years have a little problems with his old

beat friends (& wasn't present in the countercultural debate).

sometime expressed furore as for political or cultural performances

of his dated friends. anyway jack kerouac via the catholic

roman church has a reincarnation not a rebirth. in my opinion

the myth of the reincarnation of our own body (in flesh) and

not trasmigrate in other beings on this planet (kharma) is a strong

point favorauble to mother christian/catholic curch way of life

(i think of "visions of gerard"), &(sad) the good dies young...,

saluti rinaldo.

---------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:00:17 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: New/"Kerouac:  The Essence of Jack"

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Looking forward to hearing more about Jack's Essence.

Please tell us more and more and more....

 

david rhaesa (race)

still in the Valley

 

Mary Maconnell wrote:

 

> Hi.  I'm new to the list and probably shouldn't be posting until I sit and

> read letters for a few days but I'm posting nonetheless.  I've read Jack

> and loved him but what spurred me to join a mailing list was this show I

> caught in Seattle:  "Kerouac: The Essence of Jack."  Probably some of you

> have seen it and know what I'm talking about.  Vincent Balestri performs

> this one-man show where he plays Jack and *IS* Jack.  I'm not going to

> be unpurposefully redundant in telling you all about it because it's

> probably already been discussed here.  But I was amazed and mesmerized

> and it was the best live theater thing I have ever seen in my life.

> 

> So I'm glad there's a mailing list for this and so far I've read really

> great things and I'm looking forward to reading even more.  :)

> 

> Mary

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:17:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Last goodbye to Allen & Bill

In-Reply-To:  <34AA4FF0.F5BD7247@primenet.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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As 1997 comes to a close, so we say goodbye to the last year of the lives

of Allen Ginsberg and Bill Burroughs.  The coming year, and all the

coming years, will not seem as full without those two in the world.

 

Goodbye Allen...Goodbye Bill...your words will live on.

 

Next time Im at the White Horse, I'm going to drink a cold one in your

memories.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:22:57 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: Last goodbye to Allen & Bill

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971231101354.18642A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> As 1997 comes to a close, so we say goodbye to the last year of the lives

> of Allen Ginsberg and Bill Burroughs.  The coming year, and all the

> coming years, will not seem as full without those two in the world.

> 

> Goodbye Allen...Goodbye Bill...your words will live on.

> 

> Next time Im at the White Horse, I'm going to drink a cold one in your

> memories.

 

To paraphrase Bill's friend, the Bard of Avon,

 

They were men.

Take them all for all

And all in all,

Their like shall not come again.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

 

                Find out the laws then do what you will.

                                - Susannah Thompson

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:08:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Hello Again

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     I'm back again, at least temporarily.  I thought I'd give the list

     another try, I've been watching for a few days and no one's used the

     dreaded E- word, (can't bear to even write the whole word, someone may

     bring the subject up again).

 

     Received a copy of Some of the Dharma for the holidays.  Anyone else

     currently in its throes?

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:00:07 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      ho ho holicay

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I am envious of you all, getting together in calif , sherri give marie a

hug, james, give sherri  a hug.  etc. my self i usually don't hug but if

i see david on his way back to salina i will give him a hug.  We have

been warned to watch out for beat zen signs so, i will watch out, eager

always to advance the warpage of an old religion. I am not sure that i

see zen in catholicism but it is probaly every and nowhere. so also i

will watch out in case jacks catholic whims start invading my

conciousness.

kick your heels

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:28:58 -0800

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Happy New Year

 

well, kids it's been wonderful, sad, tragic, wild, crazy year.  this list

has added a lot for me and i want to thank you all for all the great, crazy

and even inane thoughts that have run through the list.  always good to get

the brain cells stirred up.

 

anyway, i wish you all a beatific, wild, crazy, safe new year, and...

live, live, live like mad!!!

 

ciao, sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:30:04 -0800

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: ho ho holicay

 

Patricia - we'll all give hugs in your name.  sure wish you were with us.

you can hug david for all of us, when he comes back through.  happy new

year!   sherri

-----Original Message-----

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 9:00 AM

Subject: ho ho holicay

 

 

>I am envious of you all, getting together in calif , sherri give marie a

>hug, james, give sherri  a hug.  etc. my self i usually don't hug but if

>i see david on his way back to salina i will give him a hug.  We have

>been warned to watch out for beat zen signs so, i will watch out, eager

>always to advance the warpage of an old religion. I am not sure that i

>see zen in catholicism but it is probaly every and nowhere. so also i

>will watch out in case jacks catholic whims start invading my

>conciousness.

>kick your heels

>patricia

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:26:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>

Subject:      Happy New year From Buffalo, NY

MIME-Version: 1.0

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        I don't know how far this list spans, or how many cultures it touches, but

Happy new year and seasons greetings to each and all.  It's been a wacky

year...  Full of laughs, tears, hope, some more tears, and I'd just like to

give everyone a great big sloppy kiss from a Drunkard.  I'll have a drink

at the fall of the ball and think about everyone who has passed.  Join me.

 

        -Bill

 

[  email: deadbeat@buffnet.net  |  web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat  ]

|"An unexamined life is not worth living."

|

|                                                          -- Socrates

[---  ICQ UIN = 188335  --|--  PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:32:19 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated

In-Reply-To:  <75dd107b.34a9f27a@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02.21 31/12/97 EST, NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM> wrote:

>hey, dont you guys think Jim Carroll's beat?

>i mean if you're gonna name Lou Reed and Patti Smith "beats", well then...

> 

>oh, and why no Dennis Hopper??????

> 

>-- Ginny.

> 

ginny, grazie (thanks) for yr comments, i consider to expand

the list. why not Kim Gordon (Sonic Youth's singer)?,

again saluti by rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:07:30 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Some Dharma 1997

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>From South China Morning Post

 

_______

 

Wednesday  December 31  1997

 

                 Buddhists free fish to

                      appease poultry

 

                ANDREA LI

                Buddhists freed more than 600 kilograms of live

                fish yesterday in an effort to pacify the souls of the

                slaughtered chickens.

 

                The Reverend Sik Wing Sing said the worshippers

                released a fishing boat's catch worth an estimated

                $49,000 off Sai Kung.

 

                "There were lots of fish of all types and sizes. This

                is a standard ritual we perform every so often as we

                believe the freeing of life will help others," said

                Reverend Sik.

 

                The fish-releasing ceremony is performed by

                Buddhists twice a year. Yesterday's event involved

                more than 150 worshippers.

 

                "By releasing life back into the sea, it will be easier

                for animals and humans to come back into the

                world," Buddhist Leung Him-tai, 46, said. "In the

                wake of the chicken slaughter, it will also help the

                chickens die more comfortably and make their

                deaths less painful."

 

                Chui Shing-lei, 31, is a regular participant in the

                ceremonies. "I know I have done something good.

                It is, in essence, freeing and saving someone's life."

 

                Other ceremonies to pacify the souls of the dead

                birds will start this morning at Western Monastery

                in Lo Wai, Tsuen Wan, and continue for seven

                days.

 

                "Dozens of monks will chant poems to send the

                souls to peaceful lands," said Foon Wang, a monk

                at the monastery.

 

                The prayers will run from 9 am to 11.30 am, and

                from 1 pm to 4 pm.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:52:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Titanic and Nike

In-Reply-To:  <34AA4FF0.F5BD7247@primenet.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

If any Beat Listers happen to see the movie TITANIC check for a Nike Swoosh

on the Life Jackets. Did I really see that? Not possible to sit through it

twice.

 

j grant

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:22:14 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE

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I am sitting here at the open window bringing to me luscious ocean  flavored

breezes drenched in pale sunlight painting moving silver amorphous textures

in the clear sky, saying good bye to another year serenely moving us another

notch closer to the 21st century.  Marie is resting with a book in her room.

We are getting ready to join a couple of friends in the first night

festivities downtown Santa Cruz. Indoors and out, entertainment everywhere,

last year there were about 20,000 grown ups and kids greeting the new year

with alcohol free good vibes.

 

I would like to find some very clever one liner, but all I can think of is

wishes for a year full of Happiness Love and Peace for all of  us.

 

leon

 

 

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:29:41 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Some Dharma 1997

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

that's funny because i heard on the news that they Buddhist monks were singing

chants for the  souls of the chickens.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:30:52 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Titanic and Nike

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

am going to see it soon. will let you know. tll me mmore about where to look.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:36:47 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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ummm.. that sounds so luscious. i'm so jealous! i'm stuck here in smoggy nyc.

well i'm no good at spontaneous one-liners either, so happy new year's to you

too.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:49:08 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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maybe i missed him, but i don't remember seeing rimbaud on there. i think he

deserves to be on there as much as any of those people. and what about marcel

proust? saroyan?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:47:58 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      L'Isola della Certosa.

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

friends,

 

i've the pleasure to present a beautiful web site

developed by Daniele Savio a friend of mine who

is an ecologist devoted to defend the nature against

the damage of the human negligence regard the resource

of our planet. his principal objective is to rescue

the Isola della Certosa near Venice (see the map

linked in the web pages). i hope his efforts 'll have

rewarded during this coming year to create a natural park

in this island at disposal for the people.

 

         --- * ---

 

L'ISOLA DELLA CERTOSA A VENEZIA.

For beyond 600 years the island was place of religious

installations, initially of the Agostiniani, afterward,

beginning from the 1424, of the Fathers chartreuses,

which, on sketch of Pietro Lombardo, they reconstructed

the church and they widened the complex conventual,

that finished for deal with (like he testifies the

press of Coronelli Vincenzo) the complete surface of the island.

 

Ample spaces had destined to meadows and planted with trees

avenues and, in distinctive, to the gardens, that, with the

donations of the believers, they contributed to the economic

calm of the religious, consenting those conditions of

essential isolation to the monastic life. Around to the 1820,

with the cancel of the religious Orders, the convent came

completely demolished to exception of the guesthouse,

reformatted to military barracks, and the island was military

custom. The numerous other constructions by now half-destroyed

and invaded from the present botany in the island belongs to

the recent history and results barren of historic or artistic

interest.

 

web path to a virtual garden in Venice:

 

http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/intro.htm

http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/spot1.htm

http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/zoom.htm

http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/cert_sto.htm

http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/cert_ide.htm

http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/schede/percintr.htm

http://www.gpnet.it/savio/certosa/schede/percomap.htm

 

thanks Daniele!

 

                --- * ---

 

 

saluti a tutti,

Rinaldo.

-------

31thDec97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:20:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac Reissue on Verve Records!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

We have a scan of the cover, a link to the product, and the latest news at

your fingertips! Go to:

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

 

                          Happy New Years to all!

                                  Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:48:05 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Some Dharma 1997

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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I am not real sure i see the humor in the monks chanting for the souls of the

chickens. Explain, please?

                           GT

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:52:56 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

 

------------------------------ Rejected message ------------------------------

Received: by kenyon.edu (MX V4.2 VAX) id 16; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:44:14 EST

Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:44:13 EST

From: CIRCULATION <breithau@kenyon.edu>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDY

Message-ID: <009BF97A.A491DA20.16@kenyon.edu>

Subject: Let Dreiser drive...

 

Excuse me if I mentioned this book before, can't remember if I have but I'd

like to mention the recent re-issue of A HOOSIER HOLIDAY by Theodore Dreiser.

This reprint is nicely done by Indiana University Press and has the original

illustrations of Franklin Booth, who was one of the main artists for the

magazine, the MASSES.

 

Published originally in 1915, this is one of the first 'road books' ever

produced in America. In this piece, Dreiser decides to take a trip from New

York State back to his home in Indiana with artist Franklin Booth, who is also

a character in this book. They hire a youngkid to drive, who is given the

nikname of "Speed." The book has many close associations with On The Road.

This paricular edition btw, has a forward by Douglas Brinkley. If you have

never cared much for Dreisers writing, let me say that this is the man at his

best, the writing is excellent.

 

Ever since reading Keroauc's On The Road, I have been interested in travel

books that cross this country via auto. They make nice background reading for

OTR. Also of interest might be FREE AIR, by Sinclair Lewis. This came out in

1917 and is more of a novel than Dreiser's memoir-like Holiday. FREE AIR is

interesting, wort the read if you can find it, it is still another among the

earliest of On The Road books. But by all means, check out A Hoosier Holiday,

five stars.

 

Cheers in 1998 and to anotheryear of good books!

 

Dave B.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:44:25 EST

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Subject: SMTP delivery error

X-Report-Type: Nondelivery; boundary="> Error description:"

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:05:34 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Let the Good Times Roll

MIME-Version: 1.0

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    Happy New Year to all of you.

 

I'll lift a glass and pass the pipe for the List.  Let it rip!

 

James

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:46:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Leon

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon wrote:

 

 

> I would like to find some very clever one liner, but all I can think of is

> wishes for a year full of Happiness Love and Peace for all of  us.

> 

> leon

> 

Leon:

 

What could be more clever.  Thanks and the same to ya!

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:01:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Help!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I seem to have been unsubbed from this list. Haven't received a post in

three days. Could somebody please tell me (via private email) how I can

resubscribe?

 

Thanks.

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:12:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Help!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Glenn:

 

Here is what I know.

 

 

> To subscribe, send an email to

> listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu with a blank subject line. In the body of your mail,

 type "subscribe

> Beat-L ." There's been some interesting talk there lately.

> 

 

 

Glenn Cooper wrote:

 

> I seem to have been unsubbed from this list. Haven't received a post in

> three days. Could somebody please tell me (via private email) how I can

> resubscribe?

> 

> Thanks.

> 

> Glenn C.

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:15:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Sorry

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Sorry

 

I knew it.

James warned me.

But anyway,

I still blew it.

Back channel, back channel, back channel

Is my manta.

Bandwidth wasted,

Sour tasted,

Sorry.

:-)

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:12:16 -0500

Reply-To:     cosmicat@holeintheweb.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         cosmicat@HOLEINTHEWEB.COM

Subject:      Re: Help!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Glenn Cooper wrote:

> 

> I seem to have been unsubbed from this list. Haven't received a post in

> three days. Could somebody please tell me (via private email) how I can

> resubscribe?

> 

> Thanks.

> 

> Glenn C.

 

 

i think you send the e-mail to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu and put

subscribe beat-l in the body text. if not...ask bill gargan. you might

add your name and e-mail address as well.

later,

michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:29:47 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Leon

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so i was thinking....since new year's eve seems to be a valid excuse to party

all night

(i was looking up at the Arizona stars) and i says well if we all decided to

astral project

simultaneously to a star 100,000 light years from here we could reasonably have

100,000 days in a row of new year's eve parties.  see you in the stars everyone

have a happy new year

 

david rhaesa

somewhere between Arizona and beta antares

 

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> Leon wrote:

> 

> > I would like to find some very clever one liner, but all I can think of is

> > wishes for a year full of Happiness Love and Peace for all of  us.

> >

> > leon

> >

> Leon:

> 

> What could be more clever.  Thanks and the same to ya!

> 

> --

> 

> Peace,

> 

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON>

Date:         Fri, 6 Feb 1998 04:04:35 -0500

From:        

 "L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8c)"              <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      File: "BEAT-L LOG9801"

To:           Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:36:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Some Dharma 1997

In-Reply-To:  <4137cc00.34aacba7@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>I am not real sure i see the humor in the monks chanting for the souls of the

>chickens. Explain, please?

>                           GT

 

Wish I could provide more details, but my understanding is that the monks

released many, many fish back into the sea as a spiritual attonment for the

slaughtering of the chickens. Read a note that they released a ship's catch

of fish. Many hundreds of them.

 

Here in Madison it will be 1998 in 20 minutes.

 

My best to you all in the new year.

 

Peace and justice,

 

j grant

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 02:27:04 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Happy New Year

Comments: To: Rounders List <hmr@olywa.net>,

          Loudon List <loudon@world.std.com>,

          Irene Apalsch <momandmike@juno.com>,

          John D Barton <jdbarton@unm.edu>,

          Linda Beck <beckl@milwaukee.tec.wi.us>,

          Jim D Deuchars <deuchars@juno.com>, Mary Gardner <rgardner@up.net>,

          Bryan Kanieski <JKanieski@aol.com>, Gary Maynard <manog@aol.com>,

          George Maynard <chjm47f@prodigy.com>,

          Hudson Maynard <maynard5@olypen.com>,

          Jack C Maynard <chjm47a@prodigy.com>,

          Jackie Maynard <maynardj@ucs.orst.edu>,

          Chris Mooney <cmooney@wvu.edu>, Jodie Mooney <jodie@calkinslaw.com>,

          Fritz Schuler <goldenrg@lakefield.net>,

          Bob Weeth <BWEETH@CENTURYINTER.NET>, Sarah Westbrook <smm@flash.net>,

          Ann Wichmann <wichmann@co.dane.wi.us>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Good morning, America, how are ya?

 

Just got home from a wonderful gathering of friends, singing in the new

year with guitars, mandolins, fiddle, washboard, harmonica, and conga dru=

m,

laughing, eating, talking, telling stories, and sharing the warmth of

loving friendship with each other.  At midnight we all hugged and kissed

and sang "Auld Lang Syne"...starting out with tongue slightly in cheek, b=

ut

by the end the beauty of that fine old Scots song transcended the clich=E9

and drew us all together.  And one and all were so sweet, assuring me tha=

t

1998 was going to be a much better year for me.  I can't think of a nicer

way I would have wanted to spend tonight.

 

Wishing all of you, far and wide, the very best of everything in 1998!

 

Love,

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:21:24 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      BRION GYSIN (WAS Re: Permutation poems)

In-Reply-To:  <da18fc3c.34a97634@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 17.31 30/12/97 EST, Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM> wrote:

>what the heck is a permutation poem? help! i really don't know very much

about

>this sort of stuff and i hate not knowing things. can someone tell me what it

>is in non-technical (read---> layman's) terms and send me a copy of one?

>thanks so much.

> 

here an example by brion gysin

http://switch.sjsu.edu/switch/sound/articles/wendt/folder4/ngbg1.htm

 

 

 

RUB OUT THE WRITE WORD

RUB OUT RIGHT WORD THEE

RUB OUT WORD RITE THEE

RUB OUT THE WORD RIGHT

RUB OUT RIGHT THE WORD

RUB OUT WORD THEE WRITE

 

RUB OUT THE WORD RIGHT OUT

RUB THE RIGHT OUT WORD

RUB THE OUT WORD RIGHT

        WORD OUT RIGHT

        RIGHT WORD OUT

        OUT RIGHT WORD

 

RUB WORD RIGHT OUT THE

RUB WORD OUT RIGHT THE

RUB WORD THE RIGHT OUT

         RIGHT THE OUT

         OUT THE RIGHT

         THE OUT RIGHT

 

WORD RUB THE RIGHT OUT

     RUB RIGHT OUT THE

         OUT RIGHT THE

         THE OUT RIGHT

         RIGHT THE OUT

         OUT THE RIGHT

 

WORD RIGHT RUB THE OUT

               THE

               OUT

               RUB

               THE

               OUT

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:50:03 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated

In-Reply-To:  <aa5eb9fe.34aabde5@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Buon 1 gennaio 1988,

thanks a lot for yr comments. they remain in my memory.

 

        "My works comprises one vast book like

        Proust's except that my remembrances are

        written on the run instead of afterwards in

        a sick bed."---JACK KEROUAC

 

saluti a tutti voi da

Rinaldo.

---------------------

At 16.49 31/12/97 EST, Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM> wrote:

>maybe i missed him, but i don't remember seeing rimbaud on there. i think he

>deserves to be on there as much as any of those people. and what about marcel

>proust? saroyan?

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:56:25 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

The other night I watched the series on the 1950's  (on tape) presented by the

History Channel.  Overall, quite interesting.  It was loosely based on David

Halberstam's book, The Fifties.

 

The next to last segment of the eight hour series focused on Elvis, and on the

Beat Generation.  Pretty good stuff - interviews with Joyce Johnson and Allen

Ginsberg among others.  At the very end of the segment, host Roger Mudd

commented that Kerouac differed from many of the Beats because he

disassociated himself from the "rampant anti-Americanism of the 1960's".  Then

he added, "Kerouac appeared at a rally where Allen Ginsberg was passing out

American flags to be burned.  Kerouac retreved the flags and neatly folded

them."

 

!! W H A T !!  This is pure bullshit that Mudd probably heard at a right-wing

cocktail party and then passed on, via national television, to millions of

people.  None of the many biographers (about 10) of Kerouac or Ginsberg ever

described anything like this flag burning rally.  Instead, the source for

Mudd's fantasy undoubtedly is the often described incedent when Ken Kesey and

the Merry Pranksters paid Kerouac a visit in 1964.  Amidst the partying of the

Pranksters, Kerouac did notice an American flag lying around (perhaps the

floor, or on a chair or couch).  The flag was probably being used as a scarf

or cape by one of the colorful Pranksters, something that was uncommon in

1964.  Kerouac considered this disrespectful and he did neatly fold the flag

and set it aside.  He left shortly thereafter and was never a fan of the

Pranksters.  Various biographers have different spins on the incident, but

what the foregoing is pretty much the consensus as reported by eyewitnesses.

 

I don't know if Allen Ginsberg ever was into burning flags.  I doubt it, given

his lifelong sense for PR and the fact that flag burning was outlawed until

the 1980's.

 

What should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is

highly paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts than used

toilet paper.  He can spin history anyway he wants but to report an incident

based on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.

 

Does anyone know where I could write Mudd,  Halberstam, or the History

Channel?

 

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:02:20 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      afternoon blues today

In-Reply-To:  <aa5eb9fe.34aabde5@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        i called you at 11 pm

        (sure)

        the cold (of course)

 

        persons

        don't know

 

        the sound is an antithief device

        than

        a carol

 

        be happy! BE HAPPY!!

 

---

rinaldo

31thdec98

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:00:44 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Sorry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bentz--Happy new year.  What did I warn you about?  You are welcome to

all the bandwidth you ant!

 

James

 

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> Sorry

> 

> I knew it.

> James warned me.

> But anyway,

> I still blew it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:51:35 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      happy holidays and a good year to all

Content-Type: text/plain

 

hi all:

my 1998 is going to be a kickass one, it is starting out, or i should

say it started back in 87 when i got off the train and leon was there to

greet me!

adventures abound.

expect some stuff after i get home. whhooooeeee.

marie

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:03:41 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> AT that rate why not Villon?

 

How far to extend this is Rinaldo's problem, thank god

 

James

 

> At 16.49 31/12/97 EST, Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM> wrote:

> >maybe i missed him, but i don't remember seeing rimbaud on there. i think he

> >deserves to be on there as much as any of those people. and what about marcel

> >proust? saroyan?

> >

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:01:28 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: ho ho holicay

Content-Type: text/plain

 

dear patricia, we will keep the hugs rolling. leon here too - lots of

hugging to do.

the best of the best to you!

mc

 

> 

>I am envious of you all, getting together in calif , sherri give marie

a

>hug, james, give sherri  a hug.  etc. my self i usually don't hug but

if

>i see david on his way back to salina i will give him a hug.  We have

>been warned to watch out for beat zen signs so, i will watch out, eager

>always to advance the warpage of an old religion. I am not sure that i

>see zen in catholicism but it is probaly every and nowhere. so also i

>will watch out in case jacks catholic whims start invading my

>conciousness.

>kick your heels

>patricia

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:59:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Re: happy holidays and a good year to all

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>hi all:

>my 1998 is going to be a kickass one, it is starting out, or i should

>say it started back in 87 when i got off the train and leon was there to

>greet me!

>adventures abound.

>expect some stuff after i get home. whhooooeeee.

>marie

 

 

Did you notice you wrote 87 in the above? Now, I know you haven't been out

there 10 years already! As for myself, I keep seeing 1998 and thinking

that's not right, it's supposed to be 88.

 

Yes, a year full of adventure, creativity and growth for everyone!

 

Michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:20:06 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

Howard---

                       im sure the Hist.Channel has email, ya know? like,

"comments@historychannel.com" or something. perhapsjust watch for their

advertisements or something. not too hard to find, im sure.  that was the 1

episode i missed of that series.  :(

-Ginny

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:37:42 -0500

Reply-To:     blackj@bigmagic.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Question

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> Jack Kerouac and Thomas Wolfe have been criticized for being story

> tellers, or just writing down what happened.  It seems to me that there

> is a large element of fiction involved, more than most would like to

> see, but it all is based on reality.

> 

> My question is this, my life and the lifes of most people I know have

> some exciting moments, but generally are full of daily routine.  If

> Jack's work is mostly autobiographical, that is actually just telling

> what happened, wouldn't that take a writer of greater statute to be able

> to make everyday life so full, so true and such an inspiration.  I think

> it would, because he would have to actually see, and not imagine.  What

> do you think?

> 

> --

> 

> Peace,

> 

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

BENTZ:  It's taken me a long time to reply to this E but of course Jack

was a great writer who could endow his words with magic.  And what's

wrong with being a story-teller.  Our greatest writers are nothing but

story-tellers.  I'd rather read a story than a stock proposal.  I know

Jack wrote what he saw and felt.  He had the same kind of dedication to

truth that I now have.  --Al

--

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:48:57 -0500

Reply-To:     blackj@bigmagic.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ginsberg interview

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> I don't recall seeing this posted to the Beat-L before, but I thought

> this was a cool discussion of Dylan's impact on Allen by Allen.  Notice

> that darned ole Charles Plymell was right in the middle of this thing.

> I got this off an old post to the Dylan list.

> 

> >  Q:  Can you tell us how you met Bob Dylan and

> >   what your earliest impressions of him were?

> >

> >   AG:  My earliest impressions of Dylan were, uh,

> >   on returning from India...  My earliest

> >   impressions of Dylan were, on returning from

> >   India via San Francisco, a young poet, Charlie

> >   Plimel[?], took me aside at a party in Belinas[?]

> >   and played me some records from a new young

> >   singer, folk singer, and it was the "Masters of

> >   War," I think, and "I'll Stand," uh, "I'll Know

> >   My Song Well Before I Start Singing," and "I'll

> >   Stand on the Sea Where All Can Reflect or

> >   Mountain Where All Can Reflect It."  And I was

> >   really amazed.  It seemed to me that the torch

> >   had been passed, sort of, from, uh, Kerouac or

> >   from the, uh, beat, uh, genius on to another

> >   generation completely, who had taken it, uh, and

> >   he'd taken it and made something completely

> >   original out of it, and that life was in good

> >   hands.  I remember bursting into tears.  Because

> >   the, uh, proclamation of confidence was so

> >   certain and, uh, the, uh, humility was apparent,

> >   and at the same time the confidence in, uh, his

> >   own voice or his own inspiration, which is, I

> >   think, some of the secret of genius which is, uh,

> >   like in Whitman:  "I celebrate myself and sing

> >   myself.  What I shall assume, you shall assume."

> >   That confidence of self-acceptance, or

> >   self-empowerment, the empowerment.  Uh, so I

> >   heard just that first record, and I was pretty

> >   amazed by it.  Then, uh, cause, you know, we had

> >   learned from earlier people.  I had learned from

> >   William Carlos Williams and  William Burroughs,

> >   who was much older, and, uh, every generation

> >   produces its own spontaneous genius, sort of.  So

> >   it seemed to me that somebody had emerged with

> >   their own, out of cocoon, with their own life,

> >   with their own scepter, so to speak.  Then, uh, I

> >   got to New York with Peter Orlovsky, and we were

> >   staying at the, it's, uh, above, upstairs from

> >   the Eighth Street Bookstore, which was at that

> >   time a big, interesting, intelligent bookstore, Uh, really

> >   admirable -for, for, for journalism it was a

> >   really well-researched and even piece at a time

> >   when, uh, the notion, the journalistic idea was

> >   beatniks, it was cockroaches, and, uh, dirty

> >   houses and uh, some idiot, uh, media idea

> >   ignoring the literature and ignoring the actual

> >   brilliance of the people like Kerouac or

> >   Burroughs or Gary Snyder or others.  So in '59,

> >   Aronowitz had written a very good series.  And

> >   he'd actually gone to the West Coast, interviewed

> >   Michael McClure, Neal Cassidy, uh, the poet Gary

> >   Snyder I think, or friends of Snyder, Snyder was

> >   in Japan.  Maybe Philip Whalen he saw and uh,

> >   McClure turned him on to some grass which

> >   enriched his account of, uh, serialized account

> >   of the poets.  So Aronowitz I had known for four

> >   or five years and Aronowitz brought Dylan to a

> >   welcome party.  Peter and I had been around the

> >   world actually and spent a year and a half in

> >   India.  And I'd spent some time in Japan in a Zen

> >   setting with Gary Snyder and then come back to a

> >   big poetry conference in Vancouver and then spent

> >   time in San Francisco, heard Dylan on the radio,

> >   on the phonograph and then got to New York, got a

> >   welcome home party and that was the night that

> >   Dylan had come from the Emergency Civil Liberties

> >   Committee banquet and had renounced any role as

> >   sort of a political prophet for them, and that is

> >   a left wing, uh, what, folk, uh, fighter for

> >   causes.  I don't think he wanted to be limited to

> >   that view and that perspective.  And so I

> >   remember coming up the stairs and meeting him and

> >   I was really interested, because I'd seen, heard

> >   his language.  And he was kind of mysterious, but

> >   one of the first things he said is he had

> >   explained, uh, uh, he had not obeyed what their

> >   idea was and they were shocked and horrified.

> >   But he felt that he had to make his own statement

> >   and have his own independence rather than being a

> >   replica of, uh, folk song hero, conforming to

> >   their expectations as somebody in, responding to

> >   every civil liberties case, every case of

> >   discrimination, every strike, the traditional

> >   sing outs, folk music, left wing party line.  And

> >   I thought it was pretty smart of him, though, he

> >   may have not had the skillful means to do it in

> >   which a way that encouraged them to do what they

> >   wanted to do

> >

> 

> --

> 

> Peace,

> 

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

BENTZ:  Yeah, I was t he invisible man in those days, working behind the

scenes to pull everyone of like minds together.  I was invisible so they

all overlooked me, took me for granted and eventually were too quick to

write me off.   --Al

--

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:07:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "D. Patrick Hornberger" <"eastwind@erols.com"@EROLS.COM>

Organization: EASTWIND PUBLISHING

Subject:      Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Hpark4 wrote:

> 

> The other night I watched the series on the 1950's  (on tape) presented by the

> History Channel.  Overall, quite interesting.  It was loosely based on David

> Halberstam's book, The Fifties.

> 

> The next to last segment of the eight hour series focused on Elvis, and on the

> Beat Generation.  Pretty good stuff - interviews with Joyce Johnson and Allen

> Ginsberg among others.  At the very end of the segment, host Roger Mudd

> commented that Kerouac differed from many of the Beats because he

> disassociated himself from the "rampant anti-Americanism of the 1960's".  Then

> he added, "Kerouac appeared at a rally where Allen Ginsberg was passing out

> American flags to be burned.  Kerouac retreved the flags and neatly folded

> them."

> 

> !! W H A T !!  This is pure bullshit that Mudd probably heard at a right-wing

> cocktail party and then passed on, via national television, to millions of

> people.  None of the many biographers (about 10) of Kerouac or Ginsberg ever

> described anything like this flag burning rally.  Instead, the source for

> Mudd's fantasy undoubtedly is the often described incedent when Ken Kesey and

> the Merry Pranksters paid Kerouac a visit in 1964.  Amidst the partying of the

> Pranksters, Kerouac did notice an American flag lying around (perhaps the

> floor, or on a chair or couch).  The flag was probably being used as a scarf

> or cape by one of the colorful Pranksters, something that was uncommon in

> 1964.  Kerouac considered this disrespectful and he did neatly fold the flag

> and set it aside.  He left shortly thereafter and was never a fan of the

> Pranksters.  Various biographers have different spins on the incident, but

> what the foregoing is pretty much the consensus as reported by eyewitnesses.

> 

> I don't know if Allen Ginsberg ever was into burning flags.  I doubt it, given

> his lifelong sense for PR and the fact that flag burning was outlawed until

> the 1980's.

> 

> What should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is

> highly paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts than used

> toilet paper.  He can spin history anyway he wants but to report an incident

> based on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.

> 

> Does anyone know where I could write Mudd,  Halberstam, or the History

> Channel?

> 

> Howard Park

Hold On --it seems to me Ginsberg told that story some place --- I would

be careful drawing quick conclusions on JK when it come to

Patriotism--actually the event and JK's response sounds like him---

anti-patriotism was not a paert of beats ---anti-government was.

Let me know if you find the Ginsberg reference

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:23:56 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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Steve Turner's Angel Headed Hipster on page 200 has a few photo's of Jack

wearing the flag bandana around his neck while smoking a joint and looking

very goofy and out of it. The photo is credited to Ron Bevirt who I believe

was one of the Pranksters and is dated June 1964, New York.  In one of the

photo's you can see what appears to be a movie camera on a tri-pod.  As Kesey

filmed a lot of that trip I wonder if video exists of that party?

 

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:25:41 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Some Dharma 1997

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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i didn't mean that the monks' chants were humourous, but that it was a funny

coincidence that i heard about it from you right after i had just heard about

it on the news.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:41:51 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Question

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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i don't understand why they should be criticized for being strytellers or

'just writing down the facts'. both of those are good things.the ability to

tell a good story is great for the heart head and bottom line.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:59:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Some Dharma 1997

In-Reply-To:  <v0311070ab0d0cd18d7e4@[156.46.45.120]>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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I saw a picture of a monk heaving fish into the sea.  I

like the verisimilitude of it.  A few foul off the earth,

a few fish cast into the sea.  The monks had the right idea.

It adds a funny twist to an already somewhat funny story, of

orientals driven into a chicken-killing frenzy by a malignant

disease that is threatening their lives!  To add a religious

element to this is to put icing on the cake.

 

Mike Rice

 

At 11:36 PM 12/31/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>I am not real sure i see the humor in the monks chanting for the souls of

the

>>chickens. Explain, please?

>>                           GT

> 

>Wish I could provide more details, but my understanding is that the monks

>released many, many fish back into the sea as a spiritual attonment for the

>slaughtering of the chickens. Read a note that they released a ship's catch

>of fish. Many hundreds of them.

> 

>Here in Madison it will be 1998 in 20 minutes.

> 

>My best to you all in the new year.

> 

>Peace and justice,

> 

>j grant

> 

>                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

>                             Details  on-line at

>                                 http://www.bookzen.com

>                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:54:52 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd

Comments: cc: eastwind@erols.com

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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In response to Mr. Hornberger -

 

The point is pretty simple.  The incident Mr. Mudd described never happened.

Period.  Whet people make up or repeat stories that are untrue, for political

or other purposes, they should be held up to ridicule.

 

It is quite a stretch to equate the real episide - Kerouac's respect for the

flag he found at the Prankster party, with what Mudd described "Ginsberg was

at a rally passing out American flags to be burned..."  The two situations are

very, very different.

 

The real point of Mudd's fantasy is a very political one.  Mudd equates the

anti-war and counter-cultural movements with anti-americanism.  That still

resonates on many of the issues of today.  Certain right-wingers also accused

George McGovern, Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton of flag burning - without

any evidence whatsoever.  None.  Burning the flag is an anti-american action,

a very powerful symbolic action, especially for older generations.  What Mudd

was trying to get accross was that Allen Ginsberg, who can no longer speak for

himself, was some sort of flag burning commie.  That is simply untrue.

Ginsberg had the honor of being kicked out of Cuba and communist

Czechoslovakia.  Ginsberg loved America every bit as much as Kerouac, although

AG was undoubtedly way to the left of Kerouac and the American mainstream.

 

Again, I've read all the major bios of Kerouac, one of the most extensively

researched figures of the  recent past.  Nothing like the incident Mudd

described is in any of the bios.  Facts and truth do matter.

 

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:44:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd

In-Reply-To:  <3b18a2f9.34abcabb@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Sure,  I wrote something like www.historychannel.com and said

I loved the Fifties.  I'm a little worried that you say you saw

the Fifties the other day, since my own TV schedule said they

were running the whole 8 hours today (Thurs) from 11 a.m. to

7 p.m. today.  I'm taping it while we speak.  I have heard

the story about Kerouac and the flag somewhere, also.  I

probably heard Mudd tell the story you find untrue.  Jack

wasn't a hippie, nor was he on the Bus.  I don't think it

hurts his legacy that he did not want to party with Wavy

Gravy.

 

Mike Rice

 

At 11:56 AM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote:

>The other night I watched the series on the 1950's  (on tape) presented by

the

>History Channel.  Overall, quite interesting.  It was loosely based on David

>Halberstam's book, The Fifties.

> 

>The next to last segment of the eight hour series focused on Elvis, and on

the

>Beat Generation.  Pretty good stuff - interviews with Joyce Johnson and Allen

>Ginsberg among others.  At the very end of the segment, host Roger Mudd

>commented that Kerouac differed from many of the Beats because he

>disassociated himself from the "rampant anti-Americanism of the 1960's".

Then

>he added, "Kerouac appeared at a rally where Allen Ginsberg was passing out

>American flags to be burned.  Kerouac retreved the flags and neatly folded

>them."

> 

>!! W H A T !!  This is pure bullshit that Mudd probably heard at a right-wing

>cocktail party and then passed on, via national television, to millions of

>people.  None of the many biographers (about 10) of Kerouac or Ginsberg ever

>described anything like this flag burning rally.  Instead, the source for

>Mudd's fantasy undoubtedly is the often described incedent when Ken Kesey and

>the Merry Pranksters paid Kerouac a visit in 1964.  Amidst the partying of

the

>Pranksters, Kerouac did notice an American flag lying around (perhaps the

>floor, or on a chair or couch).  The flag was probably being used as a scarf

>or cape by one of the colorful Pranksters, something that was uncommon in

>1964.  Kerouac considered this disrespectful and he did neatly fold the flag

>and set it aside.  He left shortly thereafter and was never a fan of the

>Pranksters.  Various biographers have different spins on the incident, but

>what the foregoing is pretty much the consensus as reported by eyewitnesses.

> 

>I don't know if Allen Ginsberg ever was into burning flags.  I doubt it,

given

>his lifelong sense for PR and the fact that flag burning was outlawed until

>the 1980's.

> 

>What should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is

>highly paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts than

used

>toilet paper.  He can spin history anyway he wants but to report an incident

>based on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.

> 

>Does anyone know where I could write Mudd,  Halberstam, or the History

>Channel?

> 

>Howard Park

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:41:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Question

In-Reply-To:  <9066b870.34ac1bb2@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:41 PM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote:

>i don't understand why they should be criticized for being strytellers or

>'just writing down the facts'. both of those are good things.the ability to

>tell a good story is great for the heart head and bottom line.

> 

> 

Who is being cricized for being a storyteller.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:06:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Permutation poems (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

This was Florian's response, which I think people might find interesting.

Neil

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:13:01 +0100 (MET)

From: Florian Cramer <cantsin@zedat.fu-berlin.de>

To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: Permutation poems

 

On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:

 

> There are Gysin permutation poems in _The Exterminator_, which was

> published in 1960:

> 

> TITLE: The exterminator / William Burroughs, Brion Gysin. -

> IMPRINT: San Francisco : Auerhahn Press, 1960.

> NOTES: Narrative and poems. * Poems and calligraphs by Brion Gysin.

> LANGUAGE: eng

> PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: 51 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.

> ASSOCIATED NAME(S): Gysin, Brion. * Haselwood, Dave L. - Book designer. *

>           Haselwood, Dave L. - Printer. * McIlroy, James F. - Printer. *

>           Auerhahn Press - Private Press.

 

Thanks very much for this reference. I will check out immediately whether

I can get it here in Berlin.

 

> 

> Can you give a reference where I could find information about this?

> The first book Burroughs wrote/assembled using fold-in texts-- _The Soft

> Machine_ -- appeared in 1961 from The Olympia Press in Paris.

 

Then I was mistaken. Marc Saporta's novel "Composition No.1" appeared in

1962, Paris, Editions du Seuil.

 

> Certainly does. The 100,000 sonnet book gets a lot of attention from

> people doing work on hypertext theory and literature. And yes, both

> Burroughs and Gysin were living in Paris in the early 60's.

 

I know there has been a lot of research on Oulipo (=Queneau, Perec et.al.)

combinatorics, but I wonder whether anyone has researched yet the

interrelatedness of Gysin's/Burroughs', Saporta's, Queneau's and Moles'

approaches to combinatory literature which all happened to be

conceptualized around 1960 and in France.

 

By the way, permutation poetry itself is much older than this. The

earliest examples date back to the late Roman empire (Publilius Optatianus

Porfyrius' Carmen XXV consists of five lines with each five words; the

words permute against each other and from line to line. Porfyrius lived in

the around 330 A.D.; his complete poems are published in a two volume

book: Pvblilii Optatiani Porfyrii, Carmina, Torino: Paravia publ., 1973.)

 

> Hope I've been of some assistance.

> 

Thanks a lot for your help!

 

Florian

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:09:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Permutation poems

In-Reply-To:  <da18fc3c.34a97634@aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Aeronwytru wrote:

 

> what the heck is a permutation poem? help! i really don't know very much about

> this sort of stuff and i hate not knowing things. can someone tell me what it

> is in non-technical (read---> layman's) terms and send me a copy of one?

> thanks so much.

 

The easiest way to find out what a permutation poem is to read one. Here's

a Gysin permutation poem that appears in The Exterminator:

 

RUB    OUT    THE    WORDS

RUB    OUT    THE

WORDS  RUB    OUT

THE    WORDS  RUB

OUT    THE    WORDS

 

RUB    OUT    THE    WORDS

RUB    THE    WORDS  OUT

RUB    WORDS  THEE   OUT

RUB    OUT    WORDS  THEE

RUB    THE    OUT    WORDS

RUB    WORDS  OUT    THEE

 

OUT    THE    WORDS  RUB

OUT    WORDS  RUB    THEE

OUT    RUB    WORDS  THEE

OUT    THEE   RUB    WORDS

OUT    WORDS  RUB    THEE

OUT    RUB    THE    WORDS

 

THE    WORDS  RUB    OUT

THEE   RUB    WORDS  OUT

THE    OUT    RUB    WORDS

THE    WORDS  OUT    RUB

THE    RUB    OUT    WORDS

THE    OUT    WORDS  RUB

 

WORDS  RUB    OUT    THEE

WORDS  OUT    RUT    THEE

WORDS  THEE   OUT    RUB

WORDS  RUB    THEE   OUT

WORDS  OUT    THEE   RUB

WORDS  THEE   RUB    OUT

 

              Brion Gysin

 

And here's my favourite poem of this genre, which isn't really a

permutation poem per se, but a combninatorial one at the letter level. It

appeared in Nichol's first book bp from Coach House, 1967:

 

turnips are

inturps are

urnspit are

tinspur are

rustpin are

stunrip are

piturns are

ritpuns are

punstir are

nutrips are

suntrip are

untrips are

spinrut are

runspit are

pitnurs are

runtsip are

puntsir are

turnsip are

tipruns are

turpsin are

spurtin

 

      bpNichol

 

Although the modus operandi and overriding concerns of Burroughs/Gysin and

the concretists are often strikingly similar, their aims are widely

disparate. For Burroughs the word is a viral agent of control, and

language its medium of exchange. Cut-ups, collage, and gestural

calligraphy were all attempts at finding freedom outside of language, a

non-linguistic freedom in silence. Nichol was a self-professed lover of

language and alphabet fetishist with an interest in language at play in

all its forms: aural, semantic, tonal, visual. His work is more

investigative, irreverent and celebratory, while Burroughs was deadly

serious and perceived his work as dangerous, urgent and combative.

 

Just some random thoughts on different, compelling artists whose central

concern was language itself.

 

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:17:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Permutation poems

Comments: cc: Florian Cramer <cantsin@zedat.fu-berlin.de>

In-Reply-To:  <da18fc3c.34a97634@aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I've done a little looking into the permutation poems of Brion Gysin in

the source materials I have. Here is a preliminary report:

 

>From Ted Morgan's "Literary Outlaw": "Minutes to Go" was published in

March 1960 in Paris and included permutation poems by Gysin. The only

specific one mentioned is "Rub out the Word." I don't have Minutes to Go,

so I can't tell you what else is there.

 

I do have a copy of "The Exterminator", published later in 1960. It

contains poems that permute the phrases "WHO SENDS THE MAN?", "KICK THAT

HABIT MAN", "JUNK IS NO GOOD BABY", "CAN MOTHER BE WRONG?", "SHORT TIME TO

GO", "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD", "RUB OUT THE WORDS", and "PROCLAIM

PRESENT TIME OVER". After the Rub out the Words permutation poem, there is

another poem also called Rub out the Words, which is laid out identically

with the first, but uses typographic symbols instead of words, where

rub = #, out = $, the = %, words = &. The book closes with the straight

Rub out the Word poem, then the typographic symbol poem, then "Proclaim

Present Time Over", and finishes with 4 Gysin calligraphic works, which

are gestural permutations of calligraphic strokes. The idea, as far as I

can tell, is that Gysin rubs out the word by first permutating phrases so

that they lose any singular meaning, becoming merely an arrangement

yielding polysemous underpinnings when mixed; and secondly by a semiotic

shift to typographic symbols, which shifts the signifier/signified

relationship from letter-phonetic based representations with their aural

basis to a purely visual sign. The word is finally rubbed out when words

are lost to calligraphy without meaning, writing without communication,

signifiers without a signified.

 

>From the Brion Gysin CD "Mektoub": "In 1960 Gysin was asked to present

sound works for a broadcast on the BBC. Among those recorded for the event

were 'i am that i am', 'recalling all active agents', and the 'pistol

poem' which differed by permutating recordings of a gun firing from

varying distances." All three BBC recordings from 1960 appear on the CD.

The two poems with words start with Gysin reading the permutated poems,

and then the reading itself is permutated by tape splices, speed-ups and

slow downs. The CD was produced by Perdition Plastics 4216 N.Damen Chicago

Il 60618 USA Fax 312.327.3887

 

I have a chap-book called "A William Burroughs Birthday Book" (1994,

Temple Press, ISBN 1-871744-90-3) that has two relevant essays/stories.

One is called "William Burroughs: a biological mistake" by Simon Strong.

He briefly mentions the connection between Gysin/Burroughs and Oulipo as a

topic worthy of further investigation: "The very least that Mr [Martin]

Gardner deserves is a mention here since it is my express intention to

shamelessly plagiarize the vast majority of this essay from his 1952 book

'(Fads and Fallacies) in the Name of Science'. Mr Gardner and his work

were, and still are, highly regarded by the members of Oulipo, the Ouvroir

de Litterature Potentielle. This was a circle of literary experimenters

founded in Paris in 1960 which would appear to have a number of

culture-spatial co-ordinates in common with Mr. Burroughs as well as

sharing geographical and chronological criteria. To my knowledge the one

has never passed comment on the other, nor vice-versa. If anyone reading

this essay has any ideas or information concerning this matter I would be

most interested to be a party to it."

 

There is another essay/story called "Nothing is True. Everything is

Permuted: The Last Words of Hassan I Sabbah" by Paul Cecil that is of

interest. The entire piece is an exploration of Gysin's thoughts on

permutations, drawing from many sources, most notably "The Process" and

"Here to Go". This is a must read. Paul Cecil then goes on to include

permutation poems using Gysin/Burroughs phrases and a formula of his own

devising. The chap-book was edited by Paul Cecil and has this in the

Biographical Notes:

"For a full catalogue of all Temple Press publications, or to contact any

of the contributors to this project, please send an s.a.e or International

Reply Coupon to:

Temple Press, PO Box 227, Brighton, Sussex BN2 3GL.

(Phone: 0273 679129 / Fax: 0273 621284)"

 

The book "Here to Go: Planet R101" has 6 listings under "permutations" in

the index, and from the number of references Cecil made in his essay, it

sounds like "The Process" will have many more. Here to Go also includes a

Gysin permutation poem that permutes the line

"ADEBC       14523      .$#-("

in three columns all the way down the page.

 

Please feel free to contact me for any clarifications, or if you have

specific questions about any of the books listed above that I have (Here

to Go, The Exterminator, A William Burroughs Birthday Book).

 

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:22:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Permutation poems

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SGI.3.96.971227210531.18998A-100000@komma.fddi2.fu-berlin.de>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

One thing I forgot to mention when I posted the Gysin permutation poem

from The Exterminator-- There was a very interesting typo that was in the

second line of the "WORD" stanza in the original that I reproduced:

 

[snip]

WORDS  RUB    OUT    THEE

WORDS  OUT    RUT    THEE

WORDS  THEE   OUT    RUB

WORDS  RUB    THEE   OUT

WORDS  OUT    THEE   RUB

WORDS  THEE   RUB    OUT

[snip]

 

A lot of interesting conclusions can be drawn from that one!

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:29:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Permutation poems

In-Reply-To:  <da18fc3c.34a97634@aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

One thing I forgot to mention when I posted the Gysin permutation poem

from The Exterminator--there was a very interesting typo that was in the

second line of the "WORD" stanza in the original that I reproduced

faithfully:

 

[snip]

WORDS  RUB    OUT    THEE

WORDS  OUT    RUT    THEE

WORDS  THEE   OUT    RUB

WORDS  RUB    THEE   OUT

WORDS  OUT    THEE   RUB

WORDS  THEE   RUB    OUT

[snip]

 

A lot of interesting conclusions can be drawn from that one, and as

Burroughs always said, there's no such thing as a coincidence.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:38:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Question

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I think that goes back to an old post that I made.  The point was that "critics"

were critical of Thomas Wolfe and Jack Kerouac for "just being storytellers or

reporters" and lacking originality.  Al Aronowitz made a belated reply saying

that it didn't matter that writers were just story tellers anyway and that Jack

pursued the truth.  I belive the post that you refer to was merely stating that

the critics were wrong or unfair.

 

But if a thread were to get started on the writer as reporter/story teller, I

think it could prove interesting.

 

 

mike rice wrote:

 

> At 05:41 PM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote:

> >i don't understand why they should be criticized for being strytellers or

> >'just writing down the facts'. both of those are good things.the ability to

> >tell a good story is great for the heart head and bottom line.

> >

> >

> Who is being cricized for being a storyteller.

> 

> Mike Rice

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:03:52 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Question

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

<HTML>

Bentz and all

 

<P>This may be an old thread that I just rediscovered in Mr. Aronowitz's

response to it.&nbsp; I would argue that while JK and TW write very much

about "real life" they select away the daily drugery or compress it to

focus on the more interesting aspects of that life.&nbsp; Were they to

have kept an hour by hour record of those lives they would no doubt be

still wonderfully rendered, but a good deal nearer to the ordinariness

of our own.

 

<P>James Stauffer

<BR>&nbsp;

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

<BR>.

<BR>>

<BR>> My question is this, my life and the lifes of most people I know

have

<BR>> some exciting moments, but generally are full of daily routine.&nbsp;

If

<BR>> Jack's work is mostly autobiographical, that is actually just telling

<BR>> what happened, wouldn't that take a writer of greater statute to

be able

<BR>> to make everyday life so full, so true and such an inspiration.&nbsp;

I think

<BR>> it would, because he would have to actually see, and not imagine.&nbsp;

What

<BR>> do you think?

<BR><A HREF="http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj"></A>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>

&nbsp;</HTML>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:06:41 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Jerry

 

I am quite sure that film of the event is probably in the Pranskter archive.

 You

might check the Kesey website to see if it is available on video.

 

James

 

Bigsurs4me wrote:

 

> Steve Turner's Angel Headed Hipster on page 200 has a few photo's of Jack

> wearing the flag bandana around his neck while smoking a joint and looking

> very goofy and out of it. The photo is credited to Ron Bevirt who I believe

> was one of the Pranksters and is dated June 1964, New York.  In one of the

> photo's you can see what appears to be a movie camera on a tri-pod.  As Kesey

> filmed a lot of that trip I wonder if video exists of that party?

> 

> Jerry Cimino

> Fog City

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:00:20 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd

Content-Type: text/plain

 

h hey, hello jerry. found yr email online. if things are possible for

visit, please give a holler to countyman@hotmail.com.\would really like

to get in touch with you. in frisco and then redwoods until some time

monday. don't leave until 15. reading on the 8th. get in touch and yes,

everyone here, thanks for the use of the bandwidth.

mc

 

>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Thu Jan  1 14:28:28 1998

>Received: from listserv.cuny.edu (listserv.cuny.edu [128.228.100.10])

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>       for <country@SOVER.NET>; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:28:25 -0500 (EST)

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>Message-ID:  <32063c47.34ac177e@aol.com>

>Date:         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:23:56 EST

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

>Subject:      Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>Steve Turner's Angel Headed Hipster on page 200 has a few photo's of

Jack

>wearing the flag bandana around his neck while smoking a joint and

looking

>very goofy and out of it. The photo is credited to Ron Bevirt who I

believe

>was one of the Pranksters and is dated June 1964, New York.  In one of

the

>photo's you can see what appears to be a movie camera on a tri-pod.  As

Kesey

>filmed a lot of that trip I wonder if video exists of that party?

> 

>Jerry Cimino

>Fog City

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:29:17 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: the fifties series on History channel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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> 

> What should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is

> highly paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts than used

> toilet paper.  He can spin history anyway he wants but to report an incident

> based on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.

> 

> Does anyone know where I could write Mudd,  Halberstam, or the History

> Channel?

> 

> Howard Park

 

 

 

howard:

 

You may want to see if you can find out who the writer/director was of

the series, he may be more responsible for said error than mr. Mudd.

Mr. Mudd is a reporter, most of the time just reading what someone else

writes for him.  He's got the talented face and voice, and more than

likely was just used as a 'talking head' for the series.  Don't blame

him, blame the newswriters and the fact checkers (if there were any).

 

And once again, another fine example on why I did not go into journalism

as a career.

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:32:15 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      marie's overly-long stay in california

Comments: To: mcountyman@hotmail.com

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> 

> Subject:

>         happy holidays and a good year to all

>   Date:

>         Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:51:35 PST

>   From:

>         marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>

> 

> 

> hi all:

> my 1998 is going to be a kickass one, it is starting out, or i should

> say it started back in 87 when i got off the train and leon was there to

> greet me!

> adventures abound.

> expect some stuff after i get home. whhooooeeee.

> marie

 

 

 

So, marie,

 

am I to understand that you've been living at Leon's since 1987??????

So, Leon, how has it felt to have marie around for eleven years????

 

 

(Just kidding guys)

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:41:50 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Elm Street in Tempe

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Public thanks to Jo Grant for connecting me with a wonderful couple

Chris and Bil here in the Valley.

A lovely evening spent chatting over coffee and gardens of sound and

thoughts and chili peppers.

 

heading back to the Heartland tomorrow...will probably be at the

Beat-Hotel in Lawrence by

Sunday night or Monday afternoon.

 

Isn't 1998 off to a great beginning!  It's probably the best 1998 i can

remember

 

david rhaesa

there will be peace in the valley fa la la la la blah blah blah

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:50:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         TRICIA PORTER <tporter5@WEBER.EDU>

Subject:      Some Dharma 1997 -Reply

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain

 

thanks honey.  that is interesting.  i'm not sure how freeing fish, will help

the chickens death less painfull.  i'll have to read more on this.

 

love tp

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:46:13 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Some Dharma 1997 -Reply

MIME-Version: 1.0

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1998 and some things never change.  Love blooms on the Beat-L and more posters

join the group  triple checking  their "Reply to" addresses.  Just be assured

 you

are in good company.

 

James Stauffer

 

TRICIA PORTER wrote:

 

> thanks honey.  that is interesting.  i'm not sure how freeing fish, will help

> the chickens death less painfull.  i'll have to read more on this.

> 

> love tp

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:48:29 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Hard to find WSB book

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

Hi everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to be pretty

interesting. So here's a question I hope you guys could help me w/-

A little while ago, I found a Burroughs book called..... something.... of

course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore so I'd never be able to find

it again. It was very small, had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you

turned it over and backwards it was in German. It started out going on about

how "language is a virus" and went on like that. I wish I could remember more,

but it's been a while, and no one else I've checked w/ seems to know.

 

And while I'm asking- do you guys think that when reading JK books (the

autobiographical novels, I mean) you should follow the chronological order?

I've been wondering about this. I read "Big Sur" after the "Dharma Bums", and

though that's the right order, there's about 4 yrs difference in copyright

dates... I know I missed *something*. I know I *should* read them as seperate

books, but then I always start wondering which name stands for which name, so

I'm not really reading it as fiction anyway.

 

Oh, and how about Jim Morrison as Beat? He refers to Beat poets a number of

times (although never to himself as one), and influenced Jim Carroll a lot

too.

 

--Stephanie

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:30:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hard to find WSB book

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i think you're talking about "Electronic Revolution" or something like that.

read it while listening to Captain Beefheart's Safe As Milk

and the virus will feel fairly safe indeed

 

david rhaesa

soon headed to the Beat-Hotel

 

Zucchini4 wrote:

 

> Hi everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to be pretty

> interesting. So here's a question I hope you guys could help me w/-

> A little while ago, I found a Burroughs book called..... something.... of

> course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore so I'd never be able to find

> it again. It was very small, had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you

> turned it over and backwards it was in German. It started out going on about

> how "language is a virus" and went on like that. I wish I could remember more,

> but it's been a while, and no one else I've checked w/ seems to know.

> 

> And while I'm asking- do you guys think that when reading JK books (the

> autobiographical novels, I mean) you should follow the chronological order?

> I've been wondering about this. I read "Big Sur" after the "Dharma Bums", and

> though that's the right order, there's about 4 yrs difference in copyright

> dates... I know I missed *something*. I know I *should* read them as seperate

> books, but then I always start wondering which name stands for which name, so

> I'm not really reading it as fiction anyway.

> 

> Oh, and how about Jim Morrison as Beat? He refers to Beat poets a number of

> times (although never to himself as one), and influenced Jim Carroll a lot

> too.

> 

> --Stephanie

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:39:44 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Hard to find WSB book

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

David, You never cease to amaze...you old ZigZagWanderer!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:12:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      And the Beat Goes On and On--via Tempe, AZ

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

David,

What a pleasure to hear that the folks at 1603 found you as interesting and

charming in person as I have via the List. Perhaps someday our paths will

cross, out there,  on the road.

j grant

 

> 

>Dear Joe --

> 

>Thank you for introducing us to David Rhaesa!  We enjoyed his presence, his

>stories, his perspective, and found much in common.

> 

>We introduced David to our phase conjugate model of consciousness.  Most

>people find it a bit abstract, but David found it paralleled his thoughts

>on the subject.  We provided a few pieces of the puzzle that weren't

>available to Burroughs, Kerouac, Ginsberg, Leary, and Watts.  It'll be very

>interesting to see what David does with this material!

> 

>We spent 4-1/2 hours together on the Event Horizon, where cultural frames

>of reference dissolve and the barriers between individuals become receptor

>sites for new World Views; where God becomes your Friend, not an abstract

>Court of Judgment.

> 

>We gained a sense of our larger kinship beyond Time and Space.  David

>arrived as a stranger, but left as an old friend.  We fondly remember a

>time when WE first arrived at the front door of 1603 as strangers, and

>found friends.  There must be something magical about this place!

> 

>David left with a glow, a smile, and some hugs.  We and he had some laughs

>with the Universe of Creation.

> 

>Thank you, Joe, for your intercession.  Once again, you've acted as the

>Divine Novelty Agent you truly are!

> 

>Looking forward to sitting around the table with you again!

> 

>Love,

>Chris and Bil

> 

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:14:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Hard to find WSB book

In-Reply-To:  <a66ef9e2.34ad448f@aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> And while I'm asking- do you guys think that when reading JK books (the

> autobiographical novels, I mean) you should follow the chronological order?

> I've been wondering about this. I read "Big Sur" after the "Dharma Bums", and

> though that's the right order, there's about 4 yrs difference in copyright

> dates... I know I missed *something*. I know I *should* read them as seperate

> books, but then I always start wondering which name stands for which name, so

> I'm not really reading it as fiction anyway.

 

Well, if you want to be technical, Some of the Dharma should be inserted

and read along with the last half or third of Dharma Bums, then follow

with Desolation Angels.  Some of the Dharma was just published this year

so don't go by copyright dates.  Maggie Cassidy and Dr. Sax should go

before them all and you should read Visions of Cody while you're

simultaneously reading On the Road.  VoC wasn't published until after

Kerouac had died.  Its good to read them in some sort of order just so you

can see how his style changed from early on (Town & the City) to later

(Big Sur) -- big differences.  And knowing what was happening in his life

lets you know why his style changed.  Also, he didn't write his books in

the chronological order of his life.  In fact, his later stuff and the

book he started just before he died was about his childhood in Lowell.

So, don't sweat it.  Unless you're also as fanatical about the events of

his life and the happenings of the man and his era as we lunatics are,

just read what you can get your hands on.  There's a multitude of

writings that haven't seen the light of day since Kerouac himself stuffed

them into his "to do" box also, so you'd be fighting a losing battle.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:32:31 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd

 

Jerry C. I forwarded your question to the Kesey camp. I'm curious too if that

film is still around. Also, I didn't see that apartment listed in Bill Morgan's

Beat Tour book. I think it was on 86th Street in NYC. Does anyone have

specifics? Probably torn down long ago.

 

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:03:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Hard to find WSB book

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 EST, Stephanie wrote:

 

>Hi everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to

>be pretty interesting. So here's a question I hope you

>guys could help me w/-  A little while ago, I found

>a Burroughs book called..... something.... of

>course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore

>so I'd never be able to findit again. It was very small,

>had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you

>turned it over and backwards it was in German.

 

Sounds like _The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse_.

Published by E.M.E. (Expanded Media Editions).

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:19:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Floyd Cramer

Comments: To: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.com>,

          Johnny Winter <jwinter@sicel-home-2-19.urbanet.ch>,

          "jjw-l@io.com" <jjw-l@io.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Most here may not care, but an important musical figure passed on New

Year's Eve.  Floyd Cramer of "The Nashville Sound" passed.  He played

piano on Heartbreak Hotel, which in my book qualifies him for admission

into any Hall of Fame or Olympus.  His biggest hit that I know of was

"Last Date."

 

The newspaper reports that he recorded 50 solo albums and along with

Chet Atkins, and Boots Randolph (He had a great album cover back in the

sixties) created The Nashville Sound that allowed country music to cross

over.  He pioneered what is known as the "bent note" or "slip note"

style on the piano, "hitting a note and almost instantly sliding into

the next -- influenced a generation of pianists."

 

He also played on sessions by Roy Orbison, the Everly Brothers, PATSY

CLINE (a divine and eternal goddess) and Perry Como in addition to the

historic 1955 recordings by Elvis in his first RCA sessions.

 

We will miss you Floyd.  Many didn't know his sound, but if they heard

him play, they would know why so many play like him still.

 

NP-- The Ballad of Easy Rider (album version)

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:39:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Re: Hard to find WSB book

In-Reply-To:  <199801030203.VAA02922@ionline.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 21:03 02/01/98 -0500, you wrote:

>At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 EST, Stephanie wrote:

> 

>>Hi everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to

>>be pretty interesting. So here's a question I hope you

>>guys could help me w/-  A little while ago, I found

>>a Burroughs book called..... something.... of

>>course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore

>>so I'd never be able to findit again. It was very small,

>>had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you

>>turned it over and backwards it was in German.

> 

>Sounds like _The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse_.

>Published by E.M.E. (Expanded Media Editions).

> 

>Mike

> 

 

Nah, I think it's Electronic Revolution. My copy has a dog on the cover. A

dog doing a ... twirlie.

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 3 Jan 1998 02:06:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Floyd Cramer

In-Reply-To:  <34ADA038.EB07CBA2@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:19 PM 1/2/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Most here may not care, but an important musical figure passed on New

>Year's Eve.  Floyd Cramer of "The Nashville Sound" passed.  He played

>piano on Heartbreak Hotel, which in my book qualifies him for admission

>into any Hall of Fame or Olympus.  His biggest hit that I know of was

>"Last Date."

> 

>The newspaper reports that he recorded 50 solo albums and along with

>Chet Atkins, and Boots Randolph (He had a great album cover back in the

>sixties) created The Nashville Sound that allowed country music to cross

>over.  He pioneered what is known as the "bent note" or "slip note"

>style on the piano, "hitting a note and almost instantly sliding into

>the next -- influenced a generation of pianists."

> 

>He also played on sessions by Roy Orbison, the Everly Brothers, PATSY

>CLINE (a divine and eternal goddess) and Perry Como in addition to the

>historic 1955 recordings by Elvis in his first RCA sessions.

> 

>We will miss you Floyd.  Many didn't know his sound, but if they heard

>him play, they would know why so many play like him still.

> 

>NP-- The Ballad of Easy Rider (album version)

>--

> 

>Peace,

> 

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> 

> 

I always like to call Floyd's style the teardrop piano note

because it has a sad edge to it.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 3 Jan 1998 04:55:24 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: And the Beat Goes On and On--via Tempe, AZ

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Just got home from an all night adventure in Tempe with a local attorney and old

college friend.  We went to see the new Nicholson flick ate dinner and then

talked about Melville and Faulkner until dawn's early light.  We'd not been in

contact for nine years.  We're still old friends as it turns out.

 

As for 1603 evening it seems about a month ago already.  The ideas were

stimulating.  An interesting angle especially given the high degree of

scientific expertise involved and my moron level of ignorance in scientific

matters.  The parallels were far far away from each other.  It seems the

question is whether a unified conjugation of consciousness is possible in which

the forward moving muse and the backward moving muse say precisely the same

message?   I'll let them figure that one out.

 

I definitely have many other thoughts.  The evening was one of those enactments

of temporal relativity.  Chronologically four hours, yet also seemed ten minutes

and four years at the same time.  Bil's facial structure resembled an old

housemate in Illinois who was the Fool on the Hill.  Sometimes it was hard to

follow completely because i had to keep telling my memories of North to turn off

so that i could focus on the words coming in from Bil.  For those who know about

the conjugal consciounsess<grin> the experience makes total sense.

 

leaving on a jet plane today

 

david rhaesa

airborne.....

 

jo grant wrote:

 

> David,

> What a pleasure to hear that the folks at 1603 found you as interesting and

> charming in person as I have via the List. Perhaps someday our paths will

> cross, out there,  on the road.

> j grant

> 

> >

> >Dear Joe --

> >

> >Thank you for introducing us to David Rhaesa!  We enjoyed his presence, his

> >stories, his perspective, and found much in common.

> >

> >We introduced David to our phase conjugate model of consciousness.  Most

> >people find it a bit abstract, but David found it paralleled his thoughts

> >on the subject.  We provided a few pieces of the puzzle that weren't

> >available to Burroughs, Kerouac, Ginsberg, Leary, and Watts.  It'll be very

> >interesting to see what David does with this material!

> >

> >We spent 4-1/2 hours together on the Event Horizon, where cultural frames

> >of reference dissolve and the barriers between individuals become receptor

> >sites for new World Views; where God becomes your Friend, not an abstract

> >Court of Judgment.

> >

> >We gained a sense of our larger kinship beyond Time and Space.  David

> >arrived as a stranger, but left as an old friend.  We fondly remember a

> >time when WE first arrived at the front door of 1603 as strangers, and

> >found friends.  There must be something magical about this place!

> >

> >David left with a glow, a smile, and some hugs.  We and he had some laughs

> >with the Universe of Creation.

> >

> >Thank you, Joe, for your intercession.  Once again, you've acted as the

> >Divine Novelty Agent you truly are!

> >

> >Looking forward to sitting around the table with you again!

> >

> >Love,

> >Chris and Bil

> >

> 

>                     HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

>                              Details  on-line at

>                                  http://www.bookzen.com

>                       625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:35:23 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> 

> Subject:

>         Hard to find WSB book

>   Date:

>         Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:48:29 EST

>   From:

>         Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>

> 

> 

> Hi everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to be pretty

> interesting. So here's a question I hope you guys could help me w/-

> A little while ago, I found a Burroughs book called..... something.... of

> course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore so I'd never be able to find

> it again. It was very small, had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you

> turned it over and backwards it was in German. It started out going on about

> how "language is a virus" .......

 

 

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with that book, (I think) but

Does anybody remember Laurie Anderson, the musical performance artist

who at times worked with peter Gabriel?  She did a song called "Language

is a Virus."  I used to have her tape, I can't find it now. If anyone

out there knows what I'm talking about, can they post the lyrics?  Maybe

it does have something to do with the book.

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:05:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Permutation poems

Comments: cc: nhenness@uwaterloo.ca

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:31 AM 12/30/97 -0500, Neil Hennessy wrote:

 

<snip>

>There are also recordings of Gysin reading his

>permutation poems, including "Kick that Habit Man",

>"Junk is No Good Baby" and some

>others.

 

<snip>

>The best books to look into are _Here to Go: Planet R-101_

>which is constructed as a series of interviews with Gysin,

> _Brion Gysin Let the Mice In_ ,  and _Man from

>Nowhere: Storming the Citadels of Enlightenment_.

>Mike Cakebread might be able to tell you if there's

>anything about permutations in the Man from Nowhere

>book (Mike?)

 

The only mention of permutation poems I could

find in _Man From Nowhere: Storming the Citadels of

Enlightenment with William Burroughs and Brion Gysin_

(published by the gap and subliminal books, 1992) is the

above recordings (and the blurb below) at BBC studios in

1960 by Gysin, with producer George Macbeth.

 

>from:  _Man From Nowhere: Storming the Citadels of

Enlightenment with William Burroughs and Brion Gysin_

 

Brion Gysin:

 

"We did first of all the 'Pistol Poem' which was their

revolver shot; I had brought a cannon shot with me, not

realizing that it would be too long. . . because here we

began dealing with sound as material measurable in

centimetres, even in feet and inches, and the whole point

of the exercise was to do things treating sound as if it was

material. . . tangible material; as indeed it has become

since the invention of tape.  And so we went to work, we

did the pistol shot one metre away, two metres away,

three, four, five metres, and then a permutation of these

numbers produced a pistol poem."

 

Not much, but better than nothing. . .

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:52:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Wittgenstein?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Does anybody know if there are any Burroughs references

regarding Ludwig Wittgenstein?  Any info would

be appreciated.

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:11:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein?

In-Reply-To:  <199801032352.SAA05859@ionline.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 18:52 03/01/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Does anybody know if there are any Burroughs references

>regarding Ludwig Wittgenstein?  Any info would

>be appreciated.

> 

>Mike

> 

WSB quotes him during the BURROUGHS THE MOVIE doco.

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:52:02 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein?

In-Reply-To:  <199801032352.SAA05859@ionline.net>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, M. Cakebread wrote:

 

> Does anybody know if there are any Burroughs references

> regarding Ludwig Wittgenstein?  Any info would

> be appreciated.

 

reference to the Tractatus in the intro to Naked Lunch (about 2

pages from the end)....a paraphrase perhaps of 5.47321

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:09:33 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Greetings and salutations

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I'd just like to say hello.

I just joined the list and thought I should I announce my presence.

A little bit about me:

I was first introduced to the Beats by reading "Desolate Angel,"

biography of Jack Kerouac. From there I read "On the Road" and "The

Dharma Bums".

I have shifted a little bit recently, I consider myself to mainly be a

Ginsberg devotee, of his books I own:

"Plutonian Ode"

"The Fall of America"

"Howl and Other Poems"

"Mind Breaths"

"Selected Poems"

"Journals Mid Fifties"

"Annotated Howl"

and the Barry Miles biography.

I have also spent a lot of time recently on a web site devoted to him:

http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry

 

I am going to make a point of reading some Burroughs (I started Naked

Lunch at one point, never finished for one reason or another) and to

read more of Kerouac (plus rereading "On the Road").

I have read a little bit about Buddhism and try to incorporate some of

the teachings into my life, I am also a writer of fiction and poetry.

That's enough rambling for now... Hope to hear from everyone soon.

 

Greg Beaver-Seitz

Stillwater, Minnesota

hookooekoo@hotmail.com

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 4 Jan 1998 04:23:26 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Greetings and salutations

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

i've noticed that a lot of new members have signed on recently. three cheers!

though i'm still new myself, and am hardly in a position to say this, welcome

aboard!

 

aeronwy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:19:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Greetings and salutations

In-Reply-To:  <19980104060934.15361.qmail@hotmail.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Welcome to the list, Greg...

I also started Naked Lunch and never finished it but Im sure I will,

eventually.

~Nancy

PS I really want a Gary Fisher HooKooEKoo. Do you have one?

 

 

On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:

 

> I'd just like to say hello.

> I just joined the list and thought I should I announce my presence.

> A little bit about me:

> I was first introduced to the Beats by reading "Desolate Angel,"

> biography of Jack Kerouac. From there I read "On the Road" and "The

> Dharma Bums".

> I have shifted a little bit recently, I consider myself to mainly be a

> Ginsberg devotee, of his books I own:

> "Plutonian Ode"

> "The Fall of America"

> "Howl and Other Poems"

> "Mind Breaths"

> "Selected Poems"

> "Journals Mid Fifties"

> "Annotated Howl"

> and the Barry Miles biography.

> I have also spent a lot of time recently on a web site devoted to him:

> http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry

> 

> I am going to make a point of reading some Burroughs (I started Naked

> Lunch at one point, never finished for one reason or another) and to

> read more of Kerouac (plus rereading "On the Road").

> I have read a little bit about Buddhism and try to incorporate some of

> the teachings into my life, I am also a writer of fiction and poetry.

> That's enough rambling for now... Hope to hear from everyone soon.

> 

> Greg Beaver-Seitz

> Stillwater, Minnesota

> hookooekoo@hotmail.com

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 4 Jan 1998 10:04:15 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Greetings and salutations

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I've got a trip to the library today to get some kerouac and

burroughs.... i hope to find time to read them along with stuff for

school and a great book (completely un-beat) called "Sophie's World"....

 

Greg

 

ps Nancy... yes, I have a 95 Hookooekoo which I've upgraded a little

since buying it.

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:14:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Thanx Jeff & Glenn for the Wittgenstein info!!

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:54:01 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      kerouac & flags

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

In _On the Bus_ by Paul Perry (NY: Thunder's Mouth, 1990), the following

statement occurs regarding a party at a Manhattan apartment including the

Merry Pranksters and Jack Kerouac:

        "'Take a listen,' Cassady says, putting the earphones on Jack. The

Pranksters massage Kerouac with soothing words. They croon choruses of

'Everything's Fine,' into his ears. Dale covers Jack's shoulders with an

American flag. Jack endures it stoically and when the chorusing is done,

takes off the earphones and carefully folds the flag and places it on the

sofa." (p. 84)

This book also contains a photo of Kerouac at that party with the flag

draped around his shoulders (p. 86) and quotes the following story by

Ginsberg:

        "The Pranksters had a big throne of a sofa completely clear for

Kerouac. The room was full of wires and lights and cameras and people in

striped clothes and Pranksters and jesters and American flags and people

waving cameras around drinking in rock and roll and all lit up like

amphetamines.

        Kerouac came in. He was mute and quiet and they showed him to his

couch seat but there was an American flag on it, so Kerouac, without

making a big, noisy complaint but a little minor objection, turned around

and took the flag and folded it up neatly and put it over the side of the

couch so they wouldn't sit on it. He was very conscious of the flag as an

image, and I think he misunderstood their use of it. They were

appropriating the flag for their own American purposes and he thought they

were maybe insulting it.  Of course, you can say many things about Kesey,

but being unpatriotic is not one of them." (p. 86)

 

Cordially,

Mike Skau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:53:56 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mary Maconnell <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: New/"Kerouac:  The Essence of Jack"

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

Hi again.  Howard Park was right on in describing the play thusly:

 

-----

It opens with a fine jazz combo.  From there it is a series of events from

Kerouac's life.  It sticks pretty close to the facts as I understand them with

some "license" when the actor gets into the rhelm of how Kerouac felt about

certain things.  The territiory is pretty familier - Gerards death, football

days,  meeting Cassidy and Ginsberg, troubles getting On The Road published,

positive and negative reactions to OTR, troubles brought on by sudden fame,

the Steve Allen show, the breakdown at Big Sur, the Merry Pranksters visit,

the alcohol soaked 60's.  Readings from various Kerouac books are sprinkled

throughout.  At the end Vincent takes questions -- mostly from

twentysomethings who know a little, but not a lot, about Kerouac.

-----

 

Vincent Balestri was simply amazing.  Every time I think about it I want

to back and see it again and again.  Unfortunately, I live about 250 miles

from Seattle and so that would involve a weekend road trip which now I

won't have much time for.  Anyway, this guy is incredible.  He really *is*

Jack.  It's just him and the jazz trio.  On the stage is a coat rack, a

table with a typewriter on it, and a rocking chair.  He has a few

miscellaneous props such as an alcohol bottle, a poster from a "cheesy"

(so I've been told -- I didn't see it and I can't remember the title)

movie about the beats, etc.  I was captivated and it held my attention

for the entire duration.  He takes the play from a two-page bio that

Jack wrote from "Heaven..." and actually consults that during the play.

It's funny, well-written, poignant, and completely gripping.

 

On the night that I went there was such a mixture of people it was unreal.

I saw everyone from high schoolers (I wish I had known about Kerouac then!!)

to older people (hope I don't offend anyone).  :)  There were a few, but

now many, 'twentysomethings' in the crowd and I must confess that I was

one of them!  They do have a nice little bar in the back that serves

cheap, good, stiff drinks which you can enjoy at your seat during the

show.

 

The musicians are excellent.  The friend I went with knows the bass player

(Mike Bisio) pretty well and he introduced us to Brian Kent (sax) and the

guy playing drums (can't remember his name -- he was a stand-in for the

normal guy).  I loved the music.  They also play a bit before the show

so it sets the mood very nicely.

 

For those who missed it before, the play is at the Velvet Elvis in Pioneer

Square in Seattle and it plays until the 15th of February.  The price is

$18 a ticket but it *is* well worth it.  Heck, I'm going again if I can

possibly get over there.

 

Take care, all, and happy new year!

 

Mary

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 4 Jan 1998 18:56:50 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Don Marriner <mmas@NETIDEA.COM>

Subject:      that old time religion

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I'm yet another new lister - hi all.

 

I wonder if there's been any discussion before about how cool it is that

the three uber-dudes of Beat genesis - Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac -

represented, by dint of their particular backgrounds,what could be

considered the three founding religious permutations of Euro-American

culture : Protestantism, Judaism and Catholicism respectively. It's like in

order for there to be a new spiritual wave form released into the North

American consciousness there had to be a coming together of the old

factions. Whaddya think?

 

Oh, and by the way, I'm a Canadian. Just for fun, can anyone think of any

truly Beat Canucks?

 

jacqui in Nelson, B.C.

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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =

color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I'm yet another new lister - hi =

all.<br><br>I wonder if there's been any discussion before about how =

cool it is that the three uber-dudes of Beat genesis - Burroughs, =

Ginsberg, Kerouac - represented, by dint of their particular =

backgrounds,what could be considered the three founding religious =

permutations of Euro-American culture : Protestantism, Judaism and =

Catholicism respectively. It's like in order for there to be a new =

spiritual wave form released into the North American consciousness there =

had to be a coming together of the old factions. Whaddya =

think?<br><br>Oh, and by the way, I'm a Canadian. Just for fun, can =

anyone think of any truly Beat Canucks?<br><br>jacqui in Nelson, =

B.C.</p>

</font></body></html>

------=_NextPart_000_01BD1942.83D433A0--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:20:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      Truly Beat Canucks

In-Reply-To:  <199801050255.SAA10191@everest.netidea.com>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I heard your first prime minister (McDonald, right?) was pretty cool......

 

                         Sara Feustle

                    sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

                      Cronopio, cronopio?

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:54:18 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      language is a virus

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Help me,

 

 

I'm still desparately trying to locate that Laurie Anderson tape I had

with "Language is a virus".  Does anyone out there have it and can they

post the lyrics.  I've got to satisfy my curiousity if it is connected

to that recently discussed wsb book.  Patricia told me that she had

preformed with burroughs and ginsberg, so i'm really curious on this.

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:11:42 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: that old time religion

Comments: To: Don Marriner <mmas@NETIDEA.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <199801050255.SAA10191@everest.netidea.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

What are you referring to exactly when you say "that old time religion?"

I mean what does that phrase actually mean?  I haven't heared that saying

since the tune "Big Money" by Rush!

 

                                                Tristan

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 02:24:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Timothy Franklin Thomas <tt324696@OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: language is a virus

Comments: To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>

In-Reply-To:  <34B0758A.5F29@comic.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

"Language is a virus from outer space" was on Anderson's 1984 five-album

set "United States Live". I believe that this was released on cd only

recently. I'm sure she had many collaberations with the boys only one of

which comes to mind at this time. She did an album on John Giorno's

Dial-A-Poet series with Giorno and Burroughs. The album is interesting in

that instead of having one groove spiraling toward the center, there were

three separate grooves intertwined. Depending on were the needle touched

down at the start of the record then that was the track you heard. The

album was called "You're The Guy I Want To Share My Money With".

 

TIMBO

 

 

On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Cathy Wilkie wrote:

 

> Help me,

> 

> 

> I'm still desparately trying to locate that Laurie Anderson tape I had

> with "Language is a virus".  Does anyone out there have it and can they

> post the lyrics.  I've got to satisfy my curiousity if it is connected

> to that recently discussed wsb book.  Patricia told me that she had

> preformed with burroughs and ginsberg, so i'm really curious on this.

> 

> cathy

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:27:21 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac & Kesey on film

 

From:   MX%"kenk@efn.org"  "Kesey and/or Babbs"  4-JAN-1998 20:00:09.62

To:     MX%"breithau@kenyon.edu"

CC:

Subj:   Re: This video still around?

For the Beat Listers who wondered if that film of Kerouac and the Pranksters in

NYC was still around, here is the word from Ken Babbs.

 

 

Dave B.

 

 

 

Hi, Dave. Yes, the film of which you speak is still in existence, as it has

been these past 34 years.  We have yet to edit it and release it. But you

can get videos of parts of the film from keyz@efn.org

 

or you can call them at 541-484-4315. It's Zane Kesey (Kesey's son) and his

wife, Stephanie.

 

kb

 

http://www.intrepidtrips.com

 

                 __________

                 _/          |

                |_  FURTHER _|

                   O       O

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 17:04:33 -0800

To: CIRCULATION <breithau@kenyon.edu>

From: kenk@efn.org (Kesey and/or Babbs)

Subject: Re: This video still around?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:45:40 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         michael hanson <hanson@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Someone recently asked for information on Burroughs's use of and relation

to Ludwig Wittgenstein. I am afraid I no longer remember who asked, but

anyway... here is an article you might like to read:

 

R.G.Peterson: "A Picture Is A Fact: Wittgenstein and Naked Lunch", in: The

Beats - Essays in Criticism, pp. 30-39, Ed. by Lee Bartlett, McFarland 1981.

 

Sincerely

Michael Hanson

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:45:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Most Stolen Books

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     According to Publisher's Weekly:

 

     Books most likely to be stolen from stores in New York City [would we

     consider this to be indicative of the US in general? - Matt] include:

 

     Waiting to Exhale

     Jazz

     Playing in the Dark

     Silent Passage:  Menopause

     Race

     Possessing the Secret of Joy

 

     Most stolen authors include:

 

     Annie Leibovitz

     Dr. Seuss

     Franz Kafka

     Jack Kerouac

     Malcolm X

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:36:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Re: Most Stolen Books

In-Reply-To:  <00089626.3427@usoc.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 13:45 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote:

>     According to Publisher's Weekly:

> 

>     Books most likely to be stolen from stores in New York City [would we

>     consider this to be indicative of the US in general? - Matt] include:

> 

>     Waiting to Exhale

>     Jazz

>     Playing in the Dark

>     Silent Passage:  Menopause

>     Race

>     Possessing the Secret of Joy

> 

>     Most stolen authors include:

> 

>     Annie Leibovitz

>     Dr. Seuss

>     Franz Kafka

>     Jack Kerouac

>     Malcolm X

> 

In Australia, a list of most stolen books was published a couple of years ago.

 

Number 1 was WSB's "Junkie". Also feautured was "On The Road". The

Mariujuana growers handbook ranked highly, as did a lot of Henry Miller

books.

 

A couple of the book stores I frequent place all their "Beat" and

"counterculture" stuff right up near the counter, to help deter thieves.

 

Not sure what we can make from that!

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:04:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Most Stolen Books

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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     I'm surprised that Abbie Hoffman's "Steal This Book" isn't on either

     list.

 

 

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    1/5/98 4:36 PM

 

 

At 13:45 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote:

>     According to Publisher's Weekly:

> 

>     Books most likely to be stolen from stores in New York City [would we

>     consider this to be indicative of the US in general? - Matt] include:

> 

>     Waiting to Exhale

>     Jazz

>     Playing in the Dark

>     Silent Passage:  Menopause

>     Race

>     Possessing the Secret of Joy

> 

>     Most stolen authors include:

> 

>     Annie Leibovitz

>     Dr. Seuss

>     Franz Kafka

>     Jack Kerouac

>     Malcolm X

> 

In Australia, a list of most stolen books was published a couple of years ago.

 

Number 1 was WSB's "Junkie". Also feautured was "On The Road". The

Mariujuana growers handbook ranked highly, as did a lot of Henry Miller

books.

 

A couple of the book stores I frequent place all their "Beat" and

"counterculture" stuff right up near the counter, to help deter thieves.

 

Not sure what we can make from that!

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:59:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Can anyone briefly tell me if the references mentioned

are influenced by Wittgenstein's _Tractatus_, or

 _Philosophical Investigations_?  Just curious.

If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about

language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,

and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that

if one actually looks to see how language is used, the

variety of linguistic usage becomes clear.  Words

are like tools, and just as tools serve different

functions, so linguistic expressions serve many

functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and

variety led to his concept of a language game and to

the conclusion that people play different language games.

Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's

theories.

 

Thanx,

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:22:31 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Most Stolen Books

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Speaking of movies..

Does anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my

Daisy" which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??

I have read about it a few different places and have pretty much never

planned on finding it but I thought I'd try.

 

-Greg

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Ginsberg etc.

http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:38:00 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein?

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 98-01-05 17:26:02 EST, Mike wrote:

 

<< If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about

 language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,

 and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that

 if one actually looks to see how language is used, the

 variety of linguistic usage becomes clear.  Words

 are like tools, and just as tools serve different

 functions, so linguistic expressions serve many

 functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and

 variety led to his concept of a language game and to

 the conclusion that people play different language games.

 Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's

 theories. >>

 

Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was as

sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a book.

 

Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.

 

ID

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:14:24 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mary Maconnell <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac: The Essence of Jack cont'd. (notes)

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

Thought I'd dig up the production notes and copy them from the program

from the aforementioned play.  They read:

 

Jack Kerouac exploded into the nation's consciousness in 1957 with the

publication of On the Road: the odyssey of two young men in post World

War II America travelling across the continent in a search for truth.

Their journey from Harlem jazz joints to the barrios of Mexico City lit

the hearts and minds of a new generation like a torch set ablaze against

a dreary cold war landscape.  The New York Times called the book a

literary milestone.  A few weeks later, the Times published a second

review condemning the work and all it represented.  But it was too late.

A new generation had been born.

 

In 1980, Mr. Balestri began actively working on what was to become

Kerouac: The Essence of Jack.  A friend introduced him to Edie Kerouac,

Jack's first wife, who was struck by Balestri's resemblance to Kerouac.

Edie supplied him with tapes of the author's voice and spent hours

talking about her life with Jack and the times in which they lived.

With Edie's encouragement, Balestri began a series of hour long '

performances in a friend's loft in Chicago.  He next performed as a

benefit at David Thompson University in B.C. -- an eight hour

marathon in which the actor and the audience went for broke.  Full

production began in 1981.  Since that time, Mr. Balestri has toured

extensively across the United States and Canada.  "Kerouac" has been

showcased in Jack's hometown, Lowell, Massachusetts, for their annual

birthday celebration and has been seen by many of Jack's family and

friends.

 

This production is dedicated to Jack's loved ones who are with him

now -- safe in heaven dead.

 

-----

 

The typos are mine, if there are any, and I don't know who wrote these

notes as there is not an author mentioned.

 

Thought this might give more concrete information rather than just the

groovy feelings I have for the play.  :)  I hope I'm not boring everyone!!

 

Mary

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:21:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:38 PM 1/5/98 EST, IDDHI@AOL.COM wrote:

 

>Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit?

>If prose was as sterile and ho-hum as that theory

>and passage above, I'd never crack a book.

 

Obviously I do give a shit, and maybe there are

others. . .  How do you not expect me to not take

a reply like this personally?  If you

are going to make an open attack on me, please

don't kiss my ass beforehand.  I'd respect the

candor of the attack a hell of a lot more than a

petty flame.  I was trying to find out some info for

personal study, and this retort was not appreciated.

I hope next time you think before you post.

 

Sorry for the flame folx.

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:50:09 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

IDDHI wrote:

> 

> In a message dated 98-01-05 17:26:02 EST, Mike wrote:

> 

> << If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about

>  language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,

>  and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that

>  if one actually looks to see how language is used, the

>  variety of linguistic usage becomes clear.  Words

>  are like tools, and just as tools serve different

>  functions, so linguistic expressions serve many

>  functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and

>  variety led to his concept of a language game and to

>  the conclusion that people play different language games.

>  Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's

>  theories. >>

> 

> Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was as

> sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a book.

> 

> Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.

> 

> ID

Interesting, what some people find interesting, i found the first post

interesting.  Language as a game resulting in escalation of thought is a

roller coaster i can buy a ticket on.  the second post seemed real

boring.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:48:20 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein?

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-----Original Message-----

From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 2:54 PM

Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?

 

 

>In a message dated 98-01-05 17:26:02 EST, Mike wrote:

> 

><< If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about

> language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,

> and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that

> if one actually looks to see how language is used, the

> variety of linguistic usage becomes clear.  Words

> are like tools, and just as tools serve different

> functions, so linguistic expressions serve many

> functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and

> variety led to his concept of a language game and to

> the conclusion that people play different language games.

> Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's

> theories. >>

> 

>Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit?

 

Count me in as one who does give a shit.

 

>If prose was as

>sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a

book.

 

Sterile and ho-hum in the eyes of the beholder?

> 

>Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.

 

Stay alive with Hank, man, while I feast on Wittgenstein's theories. Thanks

for the delightful food for thought, Mike.

> 

>ID

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:31:11 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      English major

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>> If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about

>> language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,

>> and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that

>> if one actually looks to see how language is used, the

>> variety of linguistic usage becomes clear.  Words

>> are like tools, and just as tools serve different

>> functions, so linguistic expressions serve many

>> functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and

>> variety led to his concept of a language game and to

>> the conclusion that people play different language games.

>> Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's

>> theories. >>

> 

> 

 

>Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was

>as

>sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a

book.

> 

>Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.

> 

>ID

> 

 

Exactly.

 

Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless

authors/poets/people.

I have seen such analytical, super-intellectualism in three places:

        In an AOL chat room (note: never visit AOL chat rooms)

        At a talk by Jane Smiley between her (although she seemed anxious

                (to end such talk) and an english major in the audience.

        In physics' books.

 

I have absolutely nothing against english majors (I very well could

become one next year), i have little respect for most people on AOL and

I just really dislike physics.

I also have absolutely nothing against the writer of the first message,

believe me.

 

With good feelings all around,

greg

 

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Ginsberg etc.

http://members.tripod.com

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:45:43 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Most Stolen Books

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I got my copy from Beat Books in Berkeley.

 

http://members.aol.com/beatshop/beatcat.html

 

Good luck!

 

Jym

 

----------

> From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books

> Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 4:22 PM

> 

> Speaking of movies..

> Does anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my

> Daisy" which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??

> I have read about it a few different places and have pretty much never

> planned on finding it but I thought I'd try.

> 

> -Greg

> 

> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

> Ginsberg etc.

> http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:47:02 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Most Stolen Books

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Matt Hannan wrote:

 

>      According to Publisher's Weekly:

> 

>      Books most likely to be stolen from stores in New York City [would

we

>      consider this to be indicative of the US in general? - Matt]

include:

> 

>      Waiting to Exhale

>      Jazz

>      Playing in the Dark

>      Silent Passage:  Menopause

>      Race

>      Possessing the Secret of Joy

> 

>      Most stolen authors include:

> 

>      Annie Leibovitz

>      Dr. Seuss

>      Franz Kafka

>      Jack Kerouac

>      Malcolm X

 

DR. SEUSS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

What is the world coming to???????

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:12:14 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: English major

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-----Original Message-----

From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 4:33 PM

Subject: English major

 

 

hookooekoo,

 

>>Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.

>> 

>>ID

>> 

> 

>Exactly.

 

Is it possibly your diet that keeps you, ID and Hookooekoo, on the verge of

starvation?

 

>Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless

>authors/poets/people.

 

Thanks for the compliment hookooekooo.

 

 

>I have seen such analytical, super-intellectualism in three places:

>        In an AOL chat room (note: never visit AOL chat rooms)

>        At a talk by Jane Smiley between her (although she seemed anxious

>                (to end such talk) and an english major in the audience.

>        In physics' books.

 

Is anything beyond your grasp unworthy of alive vibrant intelligent

consideration?

 

>I have absolutely nothing against english majors (I very well could

>become one next year), i have little respect for most people on AOL and

>I just really dislike physics.

 

How do you stack up in your noble assignments of respect and "nothing

against" refreshingly vital judgements?

 

>I also have absolutely nothing against the writer of the first message,

>believe me.

 

Here is a dry, supeeranalytical, overly intellectual question for your

amusement: What in the hell do you think you are communicating about

yourself with this statement?

 

Do you wonder if anybody takes you seriously?

> 

>With good feelings all around,

 

 

Those are good feelings that you just spread out for me, a great admirer of

great minds and intelligent discussions?

 

I would like to suggest to you that perhaps if you worked hard at it you too

might discover the great joy there is to be found in profound use of your

brain. If you want to limit it to just whatever it is that you can enjoy

that is fine with me, but must you dismiss what you don't like as feed for

dried up super something or other? I think if you respected yourself more

you wouldn't be so quick with your handouts of respect  to others.

 

>greg

> 

> 

>* * * * * * * * * * * * *

>Ginsberg etc.

>http://members.tripod.com

> 

>______________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:59:59 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      [Fwd: Flying visions #3308]

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Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 23:38:55 -0600

From: Barb & Jim Rhaesa <racee@primary.net>

Reply-To: racee@primary.net

Organization: Living Big with Jim & Barb

X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC)

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To: Jim Rhaesa <racy@primenet.com>

CC: Beach@qconline.com

Subject: Flying visions #3308

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Jim,

 

please forward the following to the Beat-L (address in you address book)

at your earliest convenience.

 

January 3rd, 1998 America West Return Flight from Phoenix to KC

(read while watching Space Jam and listening to Holy Soul Jelly Roll)

 

Riding a bike

First fight

NoDoz and First frozen pizzas

my first experiences with a

mustard seed

and the old old gardener

teaching

coooking

simmering

alchemical, archetypal, synaptic interactions whiz by like clouds

b

e

l

o

w

 

I'm flying above the clouds in a hot air balloon named Widener or

Titanic

I came to the Valley

with the old myth

"ya gotta walk that Lonesome valley"

by yurself

with a genetic engrained MIDI

chip brain ram recorder

spitting 200 floors above

Leonard Cohen's vision of the Future

Me and Roy are laughing

(Hank's 180 floors down coughing so we invite him up)

all night long

Often snoring too as boredom overtook us

we talked about lactose intolerance

with Robert Johnson

 

Whadayadoin here kid - says Blind Lemon Jefferson

and I says I'm just the Pizza Delivery boy

waiting

for a tip

on how

to survive the loneliness below

 

And John Lennon sings

There Will be Peace in the Valley

and gives me a ticket to fly

and Big Brother who held me company (not captive)

loans me a car and suddenly

I'm at 1603 ELF Street in Tempe

in the Land of the Apache

in the Valley of the Sun

and I'm a Moonchild's shadow from the

Dark Side

wearing Ruby Converse All-stars (low tops)

and black Levis

the Stranger of Strangers

who ghostwrote Camus

in anti-linear conjugative temporal telepathic Hog Greek

a total stranger

in the Valley of the Sun

interacting

intraacting

based souly on introduction

via

a technological medium

I understand at a limit set to nihil

empty set

of fingers pouncing on a keyboard

with John Lennon's choir singing

Rocky Mountain High

a

n

d

Louis Armstrong - It's A Wonderful World

with Jimmy Stewart dancing on the bridges

between the 12th and 13th dimensions

and

 

i wonder

 

when someone else will find the key

to the "Pizza Delivery Con"

at the Tower of Song

in issue #23

of Spy vs. Spy

 

the special biography of my backchannel brain distorted

and the eagle landed

in arrowhead stadium

 

david rhaesa

copyright January 1998

 

 

--------------A66F4A113EDD568599A4DB00--

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:56:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Most Stolen Books

In-Reply-To:  <19980105222232.650.qmail@hotmail.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:22 PM 1/5/98 PST, you wrote:

>Speaking of movies..

>Does anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my

>Daisy" which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??

>I have read about it a few different places and have pretty much never

>planned on finding it but I thought I'd try.

> 

 

E-mail Jeffry Weinberg at waterrow@aol.com or go to his site at

 

http://www.waterrowbooks.com/orderpage.html  I am pretty sure he has it and

he is very reliable. Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:25:45 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: English major

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> Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:

 

> Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless

> authors/poets/people.

 

What strikes me in this comment is the assumption that a concern for the

idea of language and meaning is considered dry and emotionless, and that

perhaps it is not necessary in discussions of beat writers, whom I hope

are experienced as emotional, vital and alive.  The whole idea of beat

literature is centered in the experience of truly living life to the

fullest.  All of these people however went from "experiencing" to

"writing about the experience."  They wrote about human-ness and the only

way to do that is by using language.  Not only that, all of them

experimented with language: Ginsberg brought immediate, personal

experience to the realm of poetry; Kerouac brought up the idea of

spontaneous prose; and few writers of the twentieth have ever begun to

experiment with language in the way that Burroughs did.  I am sure

that Burroughs read widely in the area of the philosophy of language. The

meaning of language is key to everything we do and great writers all

experiment with the potentiality of the word.  If I'm broaching the area

of "analytical, superintellectism" then so be it! As Joseph Campbell

would say "follow your bliss."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:31:36 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: English major

 

well said Diane.  while over-analysis seems to be the problem these days -

leaving the emotion as though it were a mere tangent to the work, still it's

obvious that language was VERY important to Beats, just as it is to anyone

who writes seriously.  for all his spontaneity, if memory serves, JK wrote

12 revisions of "On the Road".  and i agree that Burroughs whole take on

language could be viewed as a study of semiotics.  and if we wish to

understand any writing to the fullest, we must understand language, for it

is language that defines much of how a culture thinks - its philosophies,

its understanding of the world, its limitations.

 

ciao, sherri

-----Original Message-----

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 7:00 PM

Subject: Re: English major

 

 

>> Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:

> 

>> Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless

>> authors/poets/people.

> 

>What strikes me in this comment is the assumption that a concern for the

>idea of language and meaning is considered dry and emotionless, and that

>perhaps it is not necessary in discussions of beat writers, whom I hope

>are experienced as emotional, vital and alive.  The whole idea of beat

>literature is centered in the experience of truly living life to the

>fullest.  All of these people however went from "experiencing" to

>"writing about the experience."  They wrote about human-ness and the only

>way to do that is by using language.  Not only that, all of them

>experimented with language: Ginsberg brought immediate, personal

>experience to the realm of poetry; Kerouac brought up the idea of

>spontaneous prose; and few writers of the twentieth have ever begun to

>experiment with language in the way that Burroughs did.  I am sure

>that Burroughs read widely in the area of the philosophy of language. The

>meaning of language is key to everything we do and great writers all

>experiment with the potentiality of the word.  If I'm broaching the area

>of "analytical, superintellectism" then so be it! As Joseph Campbell

>would say "follow your bliss."

>DC

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:12:45 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Don Marriner <mmas@NETIDEA.COM>

Subject:      Re: that old time re:ligion

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tristan-

"that old time religion" refers to what I consider the old religions that I

mentioned in my message...

...ah, Rush: a very _unbeat_ Canadian band. But how about those Cowboy

Junkies? Surely they're carrying the torch.

 

chris-

Jack's family came from the Great White North but it seems to me that the

man himself was a good red blooded American boy.

 

And just to answer my own question - I just remembered Leonard Cohen -!

How could I forget Cohen-san. Mr Canuck Beatnik.

 

adrien -

hey, flat lander!

Thanks for the tips re Levy-Beaulieu and the bongobeat guy!

As for faves, I'm definitely a Kerouackian - I first read the Dharma Bums

while riding the Coast Starlight train from Seattle to Oakland, my jumping

off point for a week of wandering around San Fran and Berkeley and Mount

Tam with the lenses of Jack's lingo before my eyes. I was 19. Since then I

've tried to read as widely as possible and tried to get some shit down on

paper myself. I practically live by Jack's "list of essentials". I had the

pleasure of seeing Ginsberg and Orlovsky read here in Nelson in 1979 and

own what I suppose is a bootleg copy of that night.

 

 

ciao,

 

-jacqui

 

List of Essentials, #16:  Work from pithy middle eye out, from the jewel

center of interest, swimming in language sea.

 

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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =

color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">tristan-<br>&quot;that old time =

religion&quot; refers to what I consider the old religions that I =

mentioned in my message...<br>...ah, Rush: a very _unbeat_ Canadian =

band. But how about those Cowboy Junkies? Surely they're carrying the =

torch.<br><br>chris-<br>Jack's family came from the Great White North =

but it seems to me that the man himself was a good red blooded American =

boy.<br><br>And just to answer my own question - I just remembered =

Leonard Cohen -!<br>How could I forget Cohen-san. Mr Canuck =

Beatnik.<br><br>adrien -<br>hey, flat lander! <br>Thanks for the tips re =

Levy-Beaulieu and the bongobeat guy!<br>As for faves, I'm definitely a =

Kerouackian - I first read the Dharma Bums while riding the Coast =

Starlight train from Seattle to Oakland, my jumping off point for a week =

of wandering around San Fran and Berkeley and Mount Tam with the lenses =

of Jack's lingo before my eyes. I was 19. Since then I 've tried to read =

as widely as possible and tried to get some shit down on paper myself. I =

practically live by Jack's &quot;list of essentials&quot;. I had the =

pleasure of seeing Ginsberg and Orlovsky read here in Nelson in 1979 and =

own what I suppose is a bootleg copy of that night. =

<br><br><br>ciao,<br><br>-jacqui<br><br>List of Essentials, #16: =

&nbsp;Work from pithy middle eye out, from the jewel center of interest, =

swimming in language sea.</p>

</font></body></html>

------=_NextPart_000_01BD1A16.4904DCA0--

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:32:50 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: English major

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 98-01-05 19:33:22 EST, you write:

 

<< i have little respect for most people on AOL >>

There are 9 million people on AOL, I'm sure they'll be crushed.

Dennis (English major/AOL subscriber)

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:51:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Most Stolen Books

In-Reply-To:  <000898E4.3427@usoc.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 03:04 PM 1/5/98 -0500, you wrote:

>     I'm surprised that Abbie Hoffman's "Steal This Book" isn't on either

>     list.

> 

>I imagine booksellers are tired of playing along with Abbie's little

joke.  Why stock the book at all if it is only for theft.  In the seventies,

I saw the book in stores, but haven't seen it since then.  It was a pop book

of the moment while Hoffman was hiding out somewhere in America, on the

lam from a heroin selling charge.  During that time, he negotiated a TV

interview of himself, with WNET in New York, in exchange for the then bulky

3/4 inch

videocassette player. Abbie makes you wonder.  He seemed the most carefree and

joyous of all the real life comedians of the sixties, and yet he must have

suffered bouts of despair, the last one leading to his suicide, when the

country started to grow more conservative, and he and Jerry Rubin were forced

to play good cop and bad cop to one another on a national debate tour;

discussing whether "twas nobler to pull out the stops for humanity (Hoffman),

or sell out to the highest bidder (Rubin)."

 

Rubin's position seems to have won the day, at least temporarily, but I

remember Abbie more fondly than any of the other players who entertained

us during the madness of the late sixties.  His motives seemed purer.

 

Mike Rice

> 

> 

>______________________________ Reply Separator

_________________________________

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:51:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Most Stolen Books

In-Reply-To:  <19980105222232.650.qmail@hotmail.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:22 PM 1/5/98 PST, you wrote:

>Speaking of movies..

>Does anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my

>Daisy" which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??

>I have read about it a few different places and have pretty much never

>planned on finding it but I thought I'd try.

> 

>-Greg

> 

>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

>Ginsberg etc.

>http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry

> 

>______________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

> 

Try Home Film Festival at 800-258-3456.  They have a

reputation for renting independent and offbeat films.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:16:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: English major

In-Reply-To:  <19980106003112.28202.qmail@hotmail.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I think you can talk the work of the three most famous

beat writers to death, as occasionally happens on this

list.  I view the List as a take-off point for anything

anyone might want to talk about.  And don't really object

to most threads, save for the dreaded Gordian Knot that is

the Kerouas estate.

 

I don't mind even the intellectualism, if there is nothing

else.  Something always bubbles to the fore eventually.

 

Mike Rice

 

 

At 04:31 PM 1/5/98 PST, you wrote:

>>> If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about

>>> language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,

>>> and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that

>>> if one actually looks to see how language is used, the

>>> variety of linguistic usage becomes clear.  Words

>>> are like tools, and just as tools serve different

>>> functions, so linguistic expressions serve many

>>> functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and

>>> variety led to his concept of a language game and to

>>> the conclusion that people play different language games.

>>> Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's

>>> theories. >>

>> 

>> 

> 

>>Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was

>>as

>>sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a

>book.

>> 

>>Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.

>> 

>>ID

>> 

> 

>Exactly.

> 

>Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless

>authors/poets/people.

>I have seen such analytical, super-intellectualism in three places:

>        In an AOL chat room (note: never visit AOL chat rooms)

>        At a talk by Jane Smiley between her (although she seemed anxious

>                (to end such talk) and an english major in the audience.

>        In physics' books.

> 

>I have absolutely nothing against english majors (I very well could

>become one next year), i have little respect for most people on AOL and

>I just really dislike physics.

>I also have absolutely nothing against the writer of the first message,

>believe me.

> 

>With good feelings all around,

>greg

> 

> 

>* * * * * * * * * * * * *

>Ginsberg etc.

>http://members.tripod.com

> 

>______________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:16:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Most Stolen Books

In-Reply-To:  <199801060046.SAA17705@core0.mx.execpc.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:45 PM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote:

>I got my copy (of Pull My Daisy) from Beat Books in Berkeley.

> 

>http://members.aol.com/beatshop/beatcat.html

> 

>Good luck!

> 

>Jym

> 

 

Fine, did you pay for it?

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:17:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: English major

In-Reply-To:  <4918e886.34b1b3f4@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:32 PM 1/5/98 EST, you wrote:

>In a message dated 98-01-05 19:33:22 EST, you write:

> 

><< i have little respect for most people on AOL >>

>There are 9 million people on AOL, I'm sure they'll be crushed.

>Dennis (English major/AOL subscriber)

> 

> 

AOL gets a terrible wrap whereever you go.  Apart from the

problems they have been suffering for one solid year, I think

there is nothing wrong with those 9 million folks.  Many have

an aversion to dealing with the installation of software.  Others

want to carry their email with them when they travel, and the two

national "Brands" allow you to do this, though I simply fire up

hotmail on someone's computer, anywhere, to write someone.

 

By the way, does anyone know of an email software that will allow

you to create more than one personalized account and private code,

by encoding the incoming and outgoing messages, so that as many

as three or four people can use the same account and get total

email privacy from one another.  It would seem to be a simple

software trick to bring off.  If anyone knows, please write me

privately, will you?

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:26:25 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Abbie

In-Reply-To:  <000898E4.3427@usoc.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Actually Abbie Hoffman had attempted the same strategy with his first

book, _Revolution for the Hell of It_, which he had written under the

pseudonym Free, a pseudonym which he wanted splashed across the front

cover so that people might think it meant the book was free.

Unfortunately, the publishers decided to reduce the size of the

author-pseudonym considerably.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

 

On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, MATT HANNAN wrote:

 

>      I'm surprised that Abbie Hoffman's "Steal This Book" isn't on either

>      list.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> ______________________________ Reply Separator

 _________________________________

> Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books

> Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

> Date:    1/5/98 4:36 PM

> 

> 

> At 13:45 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote:

> >     According to Publisher's Weekly:

> >

> >     Books most likely to be stolen from stores in New York City [would we

> >     consider this to be indicative of the US in general? - Matt] include:

> >

> >     Waiting to Exhale

> >     Jazz

> >     Playing in the Dark

> >     Silent Passage:  Menopause

> >     Race

> >     Possessing the Secret of Joy

> >

> >     Most stolen authors include:

> >

> >     Annie Leibovitz

> >     Dr. Seuss

> >     Franz Kafka

> >     Jack Kerouac

> >     Malcolm X

> >

> In Australia, a list of most stolen books was published a couple of years ago.

> 

> Number 1 was WSB's "Junkie". Also feautured was "On The Road". The

> Mariujuana growers handbook ranked highly, as did a lot of Henry Miller

> books.

> 

> A couple of the book stores I frequent place all their "Beat" and

> "counterculture" stuff right up near the counter, to help deter thieves.

> 

> Not sure what we can make from that!

> 

> Glenn C.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 02:31:12 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Pull My Daisy - video and CD

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

Pull My Daisy was finally released to video about a year or so ago.  We have

it available, as well as David Amram's CD of Pull My Daisy in our catalog.  E-

mail your snail-mail address to me and we'll mail you a catalog.

 

Speaking of David Amram I spoke with him the other day and he informed me the

soundtrack for the Manchurian Candidate which he recorded in early 60's was

just released on CD last month for the first time.  Gave it a listen last week

and it has a great jazz beat.  We now carry it at $16.98.

 

 

Jerry Cimino

Fog City Facts & Fiction

1-800-KER-OUAC

www.kerouac.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:02:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: English major

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:31 PM 1/5/98 PST, greg wrote:

 

>Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, e

>motionless authors/poets/people.  I have seen such

>analytical, super-intellectualism in three places:

>In an AOL chat room (note: never visit AOL chat rooms)

>At a talk by Jane Smiley between her (although she

>seemed anxious (to end such talk) and an english

>major in the audience.  In physics' books.

 

Hmm, an ex-psych/soc major (now Religion/Culture)

to be exact.  In respect to my original question about

Wittgenstein and Burroughs, I find it kind of funny to

be flamed for a question, that I feel, has relevance to

Burroughs and his works.  I admit this topic may not

appeal to some, but the usual banal banterings of the

list don't always appeal to me either - in other words,

I don't criticize others for their posts, or the relevance

of them.

 

<snip>

>With good feelings all around,

 

Actually a bad taste in the back of my mouth would

be more suitable.  I hope that your fear of "super-

intellectualism" wanes, and you learn how to effectively

use the processes of analytical/critical thinking. . .

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:14:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: English major

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:16 AM 1/6/98 -0500, Mike Rice wrote:

 

>I don't mind even the intellectualism, if there is nothing

>else.  Something always bubbles to the fore eventually.

            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

A perfect example of a Wittgenstein theory.

The meaning of a proposition must be understood in

terms of its context, that is, in terms of the rules

of the game of which that proposition is a part. The

key to the resolution of philosophical puzzles is the

therapeutic process of examining and describing language

in use.  So, to a scientist this may mean something

entirely different than it would to an "english major." {;^>

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 05:21:11 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Content-Type: text/plain

 

 hello everyone, my name is julian, i was on this list for awhile this

summer, and now i have returned. i am from michigan, port huron, and i

am a poet, musician, artist, philosopher, and traveler. i am 18, and

have lived a life far beyond my years. i am a senior in highschool,

waiting to get out.

 anyway, that's me in a few words (and from my perspective), so if there

are people who would like to respond, please do, also, if there is

ANYONE from michigan, PLEASE respond, i've nearly given up on culture

and intelligence here in the "outhouse" of the united states.

-julian

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:02:15 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Okay:

 

A few things.

a) you have all made excellent points about the necessity of language to

the study of beats.

b) i don't study the beats.

c) i admire the beats.

d) i don't attempt to mimic the beats when I write.

e) i simply write however i feel is right and it usually makes me happy.

f) for those studying the beats, i have nothing against that - not my

thing.

g) i did _not_ mean that to be a personal attack... if it had been

personal I would have said that the person who wrote the first message

was the problem.

h) the problem is the type of thinking that went into that message.

i) but that is only my problem and i don't see why everyone else is

making it their problem.

j) i am a subscriber to aol.

k) Montag15@aol.com

l) i will probably be an english major next year.

m) thank you to all those who gave me places to look for "pull my

daisy."

 

thank you, good night,

greg

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Ginsberg etc.

http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:53:21 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: English major

In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:02:57 -0500 from <cake@IONLINE.NET>

 

A discussion on Burroughs and language is certainly appropriate for

Beat-l.  In fact, it's much more of the type of discussion I had in mind

when I created the list.   I hope to see more serious, academic topics

discussed on the list this year.  Recently, in my opinion, the list has

become a little too chatty.  There are a lot of messages that should be

private that are being posted to the list.   I agree with Mike, though,

that it's better to be flexible than to be too rigid.  I wouldn't want

the list to turn into a *purely* academic forum.   If one insn't

interested in a thread, one can simply use the delete key.

As a reminder to everyone, I thought it might be a good idea to re-post

the scope note all of you received in the welcome message: "Beat-l is an

online discussion forum devoted to the lives and works of the writers of

the Beat Generation, especially Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and

William Burroughs.  In addition to serving as an outlet for discussion,

Beat-l is intended to facilitate scholarly communication and to serve as

a bulletin board or calendar for poetry readings, announcements of new

publications, upcoming conferences, and related events."  And as our New

Year's resolution, let's all try to remember to treat each other with

civility and respect.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:15:20 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      river city reunion

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

patricia and i are having a river city reunion for two --

the cat just crashed it so now there's three

 

david rhaesa

at the Beat-Hotel

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:28:22 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:

> 

> Okay:

> 

> A few things.

> f) for those studying the beats, i have nothing against that - not my

> thing.

 

or not my thang -- the African for thing according to Tom Wolfe

 

david rhaesa

at the Beat-Hotel

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:55:51 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      julian

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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In a message dated 98-01-06 08:35:39 EST, you write:

 

julian,

 

have lived a life far beyond my years.

~~~~not to demean your experiences, for i know not you or your life, how is it

that you have lived a life far beyond your years? traveling? thoughts? many

experiences compact into a short span of time into your town that are just

unusual for a person your age? of this i am curious.......for i am also your

age and i was under the same impression of myself up until my first semester

of college (which has since greatly humbled any sense of intelligence or

transcending the dreary plain of my high school chums, of i thought i

possessed, for the sheer immensity of the world that is beyond my senses and

experiences thus to date)....one example: being involved in a War.

 

PLEASE respond, i've nearly given up on culture and intelligence here in the

"outhouse" of the united states.

~~~i think there can be a certain beauty to an "outhouse", lacking

intelligence or not........perception of intelligence and culture, i think,

can be relative......it would be easy for me to generalize my podunk town that

i've lived in all my life as redneck and lacking any semblance of

intelligence.......but that would be a gross  overgeneralization on my part,

for i don't know a tenth of the people here.....and intelligence is not the

end all to life......there might be an emotional tenderness to this outhouse

which puts intelligence to shame.......but what i thought i learned in high

school has made me cynical to the effect of presuming that all is void in my

little county(unless, of course, you've got less than a thousand people in

your town, which, in that case, just ignore everything previously said  ;o))

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:57:22 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Content-Type: text/plain

 

 hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid

hitch-hikers out there anymore?....

 sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.

 please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"

system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this

summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get

real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you

"on the road"

-julian

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:20:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: your mail

In-Reply-To:  <199801061557.HAA03897@f82.hotmail.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Im a hitchiker in my dreams, if that counts for anything. I feel too tied

down by my life to take off and also, its not very safe for girls on the

road, or thats the perception I get anyway...

 

On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:

 

>  hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid

> hitch-hikers out there anymore?....

>  sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.

>  please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"

> system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this

> summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get

> real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you

> "on the road"

> -julian

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:19:43 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      alexander supertramp

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:

 

<< who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>

 

if your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously doubt yours

is, what awaits is death.

 

have you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?

 

 

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:21:40 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      German

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

can anyone read german on this list?

 

if so, i was wondering if it was at all possible that you(singular or plural)

could perhaps translate a few small poems for me from kathy acker's "my

mother: demonology"......seeing as how the book in itself is confusing enough,

i thought perhaps my comprehension of it might increase if i knew what she was

plagirizing or saying in the german parts

 

gracias,

brian

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:25:27 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      New Orleans

 

I'm planning to be in New Orleans this weekend.  If anyone there would

like to have a drink, please email me at wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu.  I also

thought I'd go by Burroughs' house to look at that new plaque.  If

whoever posted on this recently still has the address or directions to

the house, I'd appreciate it if you would post them to be at the above

address.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:48:48 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: New Orleans

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bill, do you mean williams house here in lawrence or do you mean a house

in New orleans.  There is going to be an art show of some of williams

last collaboration in art in New orleans.

If you come to lawrence, i would love to have a cuppa with you.

patricia

Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> I'm planning to be in New Orleans this weekend.  If anyone there would

> like to have a drink, please email me at wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu.  I also

> thought I'd go by Burroughs' house to look at that new plaque.  If

> whoever posted on this recently still has the address or directions to

> the house, I'd appreciate it if you would post them to be at the above

> address.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:50:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: alexander supertramp

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     I remember him.  Didn't Tim Cahill or some such author recently write

     a book about him?

 

     If he read the Beats at all he apparently read Kerouac without paying

     much attention to Japhy's advice to "know the woods".

 

     Stupid way to die.

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: alexander supertramp

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    1/6/98 11:19 AM

 

 

In a message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:

 

<< who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>

 

if your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously doubt yours

is, what awaits is death.

 

have you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?

 

 

brian

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:51:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: German

In-Reply-To:  <c2725bf1.34b25a16@aol.com>

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Brian, I speak German fluently, and am finishing up my bachelor's degree in

it.:) I'd be happy to translate some poems for you!!!

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:03:27 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Debra di Blasi

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Debra Di Blasi

 

"People content to name the will's inevitable defeat `God' or `History' will

not long endure these restless stories. Di Blasi writes for the rest of us,

the comfortless unconfessed of us." - H.L. Hix

 

has anyone on this list read either of her two novellas below and if so,

whereever did you find them?

 

"Drought" or "Say What You Like"

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:09:35 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein?

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Thanks to Bill for his recent post on this thread.  It was my understanding that

discussions like this one on Borroughs and Wittgenstein were exactly the sort of

thing that the Beat-L was for.  My memory of the list two years ago was that

there was much more of it.  Not everyone will be interested in every thread, but

these things open doors for the people who are looking at these issues.  I love

the personal and chatty too--and have been guilty of it enough, but it is nice

to see some serious thinking on issues like this on the list again.

 

James

 

IDDHI wrote:

 

> 

> 

> Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was as

> sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a book.

> 

> Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.

> 

> ID

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:09:06 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: alexander supertramp

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In a message dated 98-01-06 12:06:18 EST, you write:

 

<<  I remember him.  Didn't Tim Cahill or some such author recently write

      a book about him?

~~~yes, a book was written about him within the past year or two

 

      If he read the Beats at all he apparently read Kerouac without paying

      much attention to Japhy's advice to "know the woods".

~~~seriously

 

      Stupid way to die.

~~~yes, most unfortunately

  >>

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:19:00 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: German

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oh most gracias to you, my newfound friend!!!!!!!!!!  ;o)

 

the first one:

 

eingeweiht in der Liebe

aber erst hier-

als die Lava herabfuhr

und ihr Hauch uns traf

am Fuss des Berges,

als zuletzt der erschvpfte Krater

den Schl|ssel preisgab

f|r diese verschlossenen Kvrper-

 

Wir traten ein in verwunschene Ra|me

und leuchteten das Dunkelaus

mit den Fingerspitzen

 

 

another one....

 

Innen ist deine Hufte ein Landungssteg

f|r meine Schiffe, die heimkommen

von zu grossen Fahrten.

 

Das Gl|ck wirkt ein Silbertau,

an dem ich Defestigt liege.

 

another........

 

Innen ist dein Mund ein flaumiges Nest

f|r meine fl|gge werdende Zunge.

Innen ist dein Fleisch...

 

das ich mit meinen Trdnen wasche

und das mich einmal aufwiegen wird.

 

fragment...

 

Innen sind deine Knochen helle Flvten,

aus denen ich Tvne zaubern kann,

die auch den Tod bestricken werden...

 

the last one

 

Ich bin noch schuldig. Heb mich auf.

Ich bin nicht schuldig. Heb mich auf.

 

Das Eiskorn lvs vom zugefrornen Aug,

brich mit den Blicken ein,

die blauen Grunde such,

schwimm, schau und tauch:

 

Ich bin es nicht.

Ich bin's.

 

 

thank you very much for whatever you can translate.......very much appreciated

brian

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:20:43 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      hakim bey

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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has anyone ever read any poetry by a person named hakim bey?

 

brian

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:27:32 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      perhaps someone might find an interest in this

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sorry for some of the lines missing here and there - brian

i am posting this mainly to see if anyone has a reaction........maybe some of

you have read it before....got it off of a website

 

THE SELF-NARRATING UNIVERSE;

THE ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGY PRINCIPLE AND POSTMODERN LITERATURE

by

David Porush

Professor of Literature

Dept. LL&C

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

Troy, New York 12180

e-mail: porusd@rpi.edu

PH: (518) 276-8262

 

THE ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGICAL PRINCIPLE

 

     The earth is quite friendly to life. Were the temperatures at certain

times in evolutionary history different by only a few degrees, or were gravity

much stronger or weaker, or were we further away from the sun or any closer,

or were water less abundant than it is, or for that matter, if any of the laws

of physics operated differently than they do, then life would never have

occurred on Earth. Think of the enormous collaboration among accidents that

made evolution itself possible. It becomes easy, then, to imagine an Earth

devoid of human intelligence. Change any little aspect of nature and you get a

sterile planet. Changing even one of the constants in physics -- gravitation,

the speed of light, Planck's constant, the coupling constant of the strong

force that binds nuclei, etc. -- would make life impossible. [Wesson, 1991

Carter, 1974]

     But were these series of hazards and circumstances merely accidental? Or

does the universe conspire to bring intelligence into being? Is it possible

that one of the fundamental laws of the universe is that INTELLIGENT LIFE MUST

ARISE? Or to put it another way, is it possible the universe as we know it

couldn't exist unless we knew it? Approximately twenty years ago, Brandon

Carter, a physicist and philosopher posed the problem, and initiated a debate

that has raged since then, by pointing out an aspect of nature that is

crushingly obvious and yet peculiarly postmodern:  The conditions of the

universe we observe must be such that they can produce an intelligent observer

of the universe, i.e., humans.

     This idea is at the same time both very disturbing and humorously

Panglossian (or Liebnizian, I guess we might say, since Voltaire based his

Pangloss on that physicist). Everything has been ordered so things come out

for the best, from our perspective anyway. "In other words," as one physicist

notes, "the universe has the properties we observe today because if its

earlier properties had been much different, we would not be here as observers

now." (Gale, 1981) This Anthropic Principle ("AP" for short) has a whole range

of possible interpretations, from a rather weak formulation to very strong

paradigm that involves metaphysical considerations, willy nilly. Weak AP

inspects various physical phenomena with an eye to noting how they were

constrained within limits that were favorable to the origin of life and to

intelligence, looking for a collection of odd or striking coincidences that

collaborate to make the human mind possible (Davies, 1982; Leslie, 1989).Thus,

weak AP is a sort of functional gatekeeper on cosmological models, reminding

the physicist that any narrative of how the cosmos came to evolve the way it

did cannot permit factors which would preclude the emergence of life and

intelligence.

     By contrast, Strong AP suggests that water flows and protons and neutrons

bind and DNA molecules zip and coil as they do because these phenomena made us

possible as observers to catalog them. In other words, Strong AP suggests that

the preconditions of the universe exist because

they made it possible for us to arrive on the scene to observe them, a cosmic

variation on the question of whether a tree falling in the forest makes a

sound if noone is there is hear it. The strongest AP goes so far as to suggest

that the universe has been purposefully organized in order to produce

intelligence (Hoyle, 1984; Davies, 1983). This implies that the conditions for

making intelligence possible feed back into the system, constraining which

branches of possibility universal evolution can take.

     AP has been strengthened by startling results from a variety of

scientific disciplines as well as by some interesting speculations. Sub-atomic

particle behavior; biological and chemical organization; formal set theory;

coincidences in the recurrence of certain large numbers in physical formulas

(first noted by A.P. Dirac and elevated to the status of a unifying theory by

Eddington; see Dicke, 1961); the spontaneous emergence of complex, self-

organizing systems out of chaos; fairly substantive speculations about the

role of super-ordinate fields or multi-dimensional substrates that organize

our three-dimensional material reality; and even an hypothesis that the

universe is a giant super-computer designed to solve some unspecified problem,

which sounds more like a Vonnegut paranoid fantasy than good cosmology, but it

has received quite a bit of respectable attention (see Wright's 1985

discussion of Edward Fredkin's hypothesis). In addition to theological views

that I'll explore below, these help support the case that there is something

quite special about the interplay between the forces of nature and the

existence of intelligent observers that goes well beyond the interrelationship

of observer and observed in quantum physics.

 

REACTING TO ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGY

 

     Even Weak AP present several shocks to our commonsense, modernist notions

of how nature operates. The most obvious is the tautological "feel" of this

reasoning: "everything is the way it is because if it were elsewise, they

would be different (or more precisely, X, which we know to exist, would not

have come into existence)." Filling the variable X with the idea of an

intelligent observer is only a red herring, for it could just as easily be

filled by "these brown wing-tipped Oxfords."

     Of course Strong AP poses even greater challenges. Common sense tells us

that the preconditions of the universe that made life possible caused life. In

what way can our presence now possibly have influenced events which came

billions of years before us? But our biases about causality are bound up in

very human ideas about the arrow of time (Lewis, 1986) Physicists know there

are many arenas of the universe where time's arrow must be viewed as moving

both forwards and backwards in order to make sense of what we know, and so can

ideas of causality. Quantum physics has exposed whole arenas of subatomic

phenomena, and astrophysics and more orthodox cosmology, have potrayed regions

around black holes where commonsense notions of causation simply do not apply.

Furthermore, quantum mechanics has already shown us that there are events

which cannot happen the way they do unless an observation is made of them.

Check your sense of time, space, and causation at the door, ladies and

gentlemen, we're entering the realm of postmodern physics.

     Perhaps the most disturbing idea in AP is the tacit attribution of

teleology - an intentionality or purposiveness - to the universe. As good

modernists, we have been accustomed to view this cosmos as a blind, reeling,

entropic, contingent, godless place, an egalitarian abode (in the Copernican

sense) where the universe treats all things with equal indifference, granting

no special status or favors to anyplace or any entity, a universal play where

humanity makes a haphazard appearance on stage and yet where noone else is

watching to appreciate our performance, or for that matter, the performance of

nature's grand design.

     With shocking simplicity, AP suggests the show is all for our benefit; we

are the crown of creation. It's anthropomorphization (or anthropocentralism)

on a scale we haven't seen since Medieval theology. It encourages discussions

about reconciliations between ancient beliefs in God as Primum Mobile, man as

created in God's image, and a re-unification of spiritual and scientific

knowledge, of physics and metaphysics, on grounds favorable to metaphysics

(McLean, 1991; Peacocke, 1991; Smith, 1991; Nelson, 1991). Certainly the

Anthropic Principle in its strongest or broadest formulation invites an

equation between the actions and characteristics of the Universe and some

universal Intentional Impulse, a purpose, a because. We're here because the

Universe brought us into being so we could worship (or at least observe) It.

     The most cogent objection to this metaphysical brand of AP, it seems to

me, points to a sort of tautology lurking in its premise: As soon as you look

at the universe as a place with a purpose, then you are already giving it an

intention, a mind.   Nonetheless, it is hard to resist the clear attraction of

an emergent paradigm the lies somewhere between anthropic cosmology and anti-

chaos or complexity which points to the inevitable creation of more complex

systems out of less complex ones -- the rise of what Wiener called local

islands of organization in the universal tide toward entropy -- which has

created galaxies and the Earth's biosphere. It is also hard to deny that human

intelligence represents the ultimate expression of that complexity, re-

centering human life as an anti-entropic force. Even a moderately weak AP

challenges the evolutionary view of how higher levels of organization and

control emerge. In moderate AP, the matehamtics of blind variation and natural

selection simply don't work out; mere accident cannot explain the remarkable

fine-tuning required for the universe to have given rise to life, let alone

human intelligence (see Balashov, 1991 for a review of this position; see

Jantsch, 1980 for a rebuttal).

     There is no space here to give more than this glancing account of the

very rich literature and debate this emergent paradigm has provoked. The major

and most rigorous discussion of AP occurs in a variety of reputable physics,

astrophysics, general science, and philosophy journals. An encyclopedic

account, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle (Barrow & Tipler, 1986) received

such vociferous and voluminous reaction that one writer estimated that the

letters and reviews alone would fill another volume of equal size. I would

also refer my readers to a very good, recent summary of AP in the American

Journal of Physics (Balashov, 1991), which also serves as a resource letter

and bibliography about AP. However, for our purposes, AP begs some very

provocative questions about how we view the relations between scientific

discourse and literary narrative, and it also suggests a route to a synthesis

between them, as I hope to show in the rest of this paper.

 

LITERARY THEORY, NEO-CRYPTO-COPERNICANISM, AND STRONG AP: THE

SELF-NARRATING UNIVERSE

 

Balashov (1991) frames the foundation for the Anthropic Principle in this

intriguing way:

     AP was proposed as a counterbalance to the unwarranted extension of the

Copernican view that we do not occupy a privileged place in the Universe to

its extreme dogmatic version that our place cannot be privileged in any way.

     I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that most constructivists,

poststructuralists, deconstructionists and New Historicists - and therefore

much of the theory that informs debate in the humanistic disciplines today,

even, I venture, at this conference - are orthodox Copernicans in this sense

as well. We narrativists adamantly refuse to privilege any discourse or theory

or paradigm that posits an a priori term or is nostalgic for an aboriginal

source of meaning. Yet, as Balashov points out, this Copernican

egalitarianism, at least from the point of view of nature, "is obviously

untrue, since our mere existence as complex physiochemical creatures requires

certain conditions that are met only in particular sites in the Universe and

at some definite stages in its physical history."

     I call this cosmological model offered by Strong AP "The Self- Narrating

Universe," since it views the Universe as struggling to give birth to

intelligence in order to create an observer exactly like us. In this scenario,

a mechanical device that registers events as they occur and merely records

data won't do. Rather, the Universe requires a decidedly human observer who

cannot help but abstract data, leap to conclusions, make metaphorical

connections, invest silence with significance ... in short, Tell the

Universe's Story based upon what it understands. I am even, at times, tempted

to call AP cosmology "The Meaning Universe" because AP does not simply portray

a world where intelligence narrates an idle series of events but rather invest

the world with meaning.

     Let me indulge a personal digression for the sake of an analogy. Here at

Rensselaer I co-direct a research project - Autopoeisis - that has developed a

"story-telling program." The computer simulates a series of events and

encounters among characters in a microworld (simulator) and then recounts them

as they occur, without regard to the coherence of the story or any other

feature. Gameworld (as we affectionately call it) is no more intelligent, by

this metric, than a digital clock that "tells" time. By contrast, an

intelligent human story teller, even an unsophisticated one, chooses,

rearranges, omits, embellishes and shapes any delivery of information. One of

the questions my physician asks my five-year old son this week when he was

taking his complete physical is "Can you tell a story?" And one of the great

lessons of postmodernism for all disciplines is that there is no non-fictive

narrative, no weightless, transparent delivery of information from one human

to another. The human narrator is self-conscious and self-reflective always,

implicitly or explicitly. AP implies a world where all events are meaningfully

disposed towards creating the very intelligence that narrates them

meaningfully, like a human, not the machine, storyteller. The result is a

purposeful feedback loop, very much like postmodern stories where the function

of the story is to demonstrate how it came to be told, and where the self-

consciousness or tail-biting interplay between story and teller moves to the

foreground of the narrative. In short, Strong AP implies a world where form

and function, purpose and result, are united in the creation of an

intelligence that can tell that story. Throughout his oeuvre Samuel Beckett's

question was, "Am I the teller or the told?" AP suggests the answer to this

ontological-epistemological question is "both."

 

AP AND THE SYNTHESIS OF POSTMODERN SCIENCE AND LITERATURE

 

     C.P. Snow was right, in his own fussy way. The great dialectic of our

culture is captured in the contrast between the discourses of literature and

the discourses of the sciences. But this is not a result of simple differences

in education, as C.P. Snow suggested, nor even in any hostility between

scientists and authors as Snow implied, nor even one of mere temperament.

Rather, it is the result of the devotion by scientists and litterateurs to two

different epistemologies, two different ways of expressing what they are

trying to know and two different visions of what it is valuable to know. And

these epistemological points of view are as mutually exclusive and command as

profound a commitment by their adherents as any fundamental faiths do.

     A quick way to understand this dialectic is as follows: three hundred

years of science persistently excluded or de-privileged the human self as an

intentional, expressive object from scientific discourse. At the same time,

science also lacked a coherent formal model of natural language. As the result

of its rationalist inheritance and its persistent objectification of the

observer, science relies on a discourse that has had inordinate difficulty

enfolding or describing its own acts of knowing. From the very early days of

the Royal Society when Wilkins and Sprat failed in their attempt to define a

pure language of science, devoid of metaphor or embellishment, science has

never successfully purged the messiness of metaphor and the polysemy of human

language from its mise-en-scene. And while the Newtonian-Copernican-Carteisan

paradigm pretended to exile the human observer from the stage of science, we

now know that Newton's sleep was an aberrant age, a temporary hallucination

that history will undoubtedly consign to a minority view. The postmodern

sciences that bring this struggle into relief are quantum mechanics, the study

of nature at the subatomic level, and cybernetics, the study of how

information is used in systems of control and communication. By Norbert

Wiener's own account (Wiener, 1947) cybernetics grew out of a direct attempt

to remove the human mind from the picture of physics where the Heisenberg

Uncertainty Principle had placed it- to banish the human mind from the

epistemological loop. By giving an algorithm for the information required to

reduce the probablism in the sub-atomic scenario, and by proposing a

mechanical/formal explanation of control systems like the human mind,

cyberneticists like Wiener, von Neumann, and Turing hoped to create a complete

and consistent rational system that did not need a subjective observer to be

understood. Nonetheless, these two phenomena - the intelligent self (the mind)

and language - are certainly mirrors of each other. That is why Alan Turing

believed that we know a creature is intelligent when it can use language

intelligently and he positioned such a belief as the essential test of

intelligence in a machine brain, a test that still informs AI debate. Yet when

science comes to inspect the seat of intelligence, the brain/mind, it is

virtually silent on the point of self- knowledge or self-consciousness and

quite dumb on the matter of how language expresses mental events. Scientific

language reduces or eliminates all those things that make literature

interesting, exciting, stimulating -- or in a word, literary: ambiguity,

competing interpretations, silence, paranomasia, passion, multiple meanings,

mystery, and metaphor. By contrast, literature has always been, in part,

discourse that foregrounds the self using language.

     So in this postmodern technological age, what I have elsewhere called the

Cybernetic Age, when the question of how the mind uses languages has come to

dominate center stage across the disciplines, a postmodern literature has

arisen to underscore this difference in discourses. If the important

literature of our age has any common feature, it is the shared attempt to

register the difficulties of using language to capture knowledge and express

experience. Some might even argue that such a concern is common to all

literatures of any age. Yet many significant postmodern authors - William

Burroughs, Samuel Beckett, Mark Leyner, Italo Calvino, Kathy Acker, Joseph

McElroy, Thomas Pynchon, John Barth, Umberto Eco, Don DeLillo, Donald

Barthelme, Robert Coover, Marianne Hauser, Laurie Anderson, William Gibson,

Bruce Sterling, Philip K. Dick, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., among others - record

their struCybernetic Age, when the question of how the mind uses languages has

come to dominate center stage across the disciplines, a postmodern literature

has arisen to underscore this difference in discourses.

     The motivation behind this choice of cybernetics is fairly obvious: after

all, the cybernetics of Norbert Weiner, John von Neumann, and Alan Turing

claimed to develop a rational and complete system for formalizing

communication and information, especially human communication: in short, the

very stuff of what literature claims as its own. However, in its relatively

naive attempt to formulate a mathematics of information, science discovered

something that all literary acts express tacitly: Information cannot be

understood in a vacuum. Any significant communication cannot be calculated,

let alone deciphered, apart from the disposition of the system of meaning in

which it is imbedded. Indeed, as the literary text always signals, information

is context. When treated as a simple quantity, information literally doesn't

"make sense." You can refine the way telephones transmit information, but you

can do little to make sense of what the information means to the people

conversing on either end of the line.

     For the postmodern author, negating this premise is simple. The author

needs merely to use language with such a degree of complexity and meaningful

indecipherability that he or she exposes the impossibility of creating a

formal system to account for the amount of information in, say, even a single

metaphor or turn of phrase. The message of these "cybernetic" (or better,

"anti-cybernetic") fictions is clear: the artistic use of language offers a

more complete, if irrational, discourse about the facts of our experience,

including our experience of phenomena outside ourselves. In brief, what marks

literary epistemology is a discourse which is explicitly concerned with itself

as an act of human knowledge. As Julia Kristeva quipped, "The purpose of

literature is to enlarge the domain of the human." In an era when the prospect

of intelligent machines and the technologization or automation of human

experience looms large, literature has a special urgency in pressing back.

     In the intervening years, conventional science has done little to address

this important distinction between information and meaning, or to paraphrase

cyberneticist Gordon Pask, between a stipulation of a system's message and its

purpose. In literary terms, we would say merely that science lacks an account

of its own point of view. Science has no formulation for the fact of its own

intelligent narrative that is as satisfying or as comfortable as the ones we

normally assume in narrative disciplines like literature, where the fact of

the human mind as both object and subject of discourse is the predicate for

all other work.

     I view this tension in science between the mind's meaningful narration

and what it purports to observe, both in the external world and the internal ,

mental world as THE postmodern question, informing not only the sciences but

giving a fertile territory for much of the interesting literature of our

period. In essence, into the gap created by science's own inability to deal

with the fact of the observer, rushes a postmodern literary program: to prove

the relative epistemological potency of literature in the face of a general

epistemological impotence of any other rational program. In other words,

postmodern authors like Pynchon, Barth, Beckett, Acker, and many others have

made irrational hay while the rational sun of science still shines.

     Now, science's own methods have brought it to confront, almost despite

itself, the question of the proper relation between mind and nature, and

between the discourse of mind and the order of the cosmos. As a result, AP

suggests a strong and more-than-metaphorical correspondence between the

concerns of postmodern literature and science. Both Weak and Strong AP are

united by the need to develop a formal model of the universe that will enfold

or account for the existence of the human mind, as opposed to relying on

formal mathematical descriptions of the dynamics of matter and energy

interactions or of neutral information in a system. Rather than focusing on

interactions among things in space-time or on the properties of spacetime

itself, AP inspects all data in terms of how well it explains the fact of

human intelligence, indeed the very same human intelligence that is

examiningthose facts. Thus AP is a scientific paradigm that reads like a self-

reflexive postmodern

fiction.  So AP - an expressly postmodern science - shares an epistemological

ideal with postmodern literature:

 

PORUSH'S PRINCIPLE OF EPISTEMOLOGICAL POTENCY

 

     Descriptions of any intelligent system (and the Universe is obviously

one; fictional texts create others) in order to achieve epistemolgoical

potency must include accounts not only of how the system is regulated and

organized, and of how it communicates among its own parts, but also of how it

knows and describes itself.

     In other words, Any epistemologically potent system must include a

discourse that enfolds its own intelligence.

     The Cosmic Anthropic Principle, then, suggests a pure synthesis on the

level of meaningful narrative between the two epistemologies of literature and

science by offering the first scientific paradigm to embrace itself as an act

of human knowledge. AP is struggling to describe how the human narrative of

the cosmos is not mere reportage but fundamentally creative of and essential

to the structure of reality.

 

 

SOURCES CITED

Barrow, J.D. and F.J. Tipler, 1986 The Anthropic Cosmological Principle

Clarendon, Oxford.

Balashov, Y.V. 1991 "Resource Letter AP-1: The anthropic pricniple," Am.

J. Physics 59 (12):1069-1076

Campbell, J. 1989 The Improbable Machine Simon & Schuster, New York.

Carter, Brandon 1974 "Large Number Coincidences and the Anthropic

Principle in Cosmology," Confrontation of Cosmological Theories with

Observational Data: Proceedings of the Second Copernicus Symposium ,

edited by M.A. Longair. D. Reidel Publishing Co, 1974.

Dicke, R.H. 1961 "Dirac's Cosmology and Mach's Principle," Nature 192

440-441

Davies, P.C. W. 1982 The Accidental Universe Cambridge UP.

Davies, P. 1983 God and the New Physics (Dent & Sons, London 1983)

Gale, George 1981 "The Anthropic Principle," Scientific American 243,

6:154-171

Jantsch, E. 1980 The Self-Organizing Universe Pergamon, Oxford.

Leslie, J. 1989 Universes. Routledge, London & New York.

Leslie, J. 1991 "Time and the Anthropic Principle," Mind 101,

403:525-540.

Lewis, David 1986 "Counterfactual Dependence and Time's Arrows," in his

Philosophical Papers , II. Oxford, Oxford University Press: 32-66.

McLean, Murdith 1991 "Residual Natural Evil and Anthropic Reasoning," J.

Rel.

Stud 27:173-188.

Nelson, James S. 1991 "Does Science Clarify God's Relation to the

World?" Zygon 26,4::519-525

Peacocke, Arthur, 1991 "God's Action in the Real World," Zygon 26,

4::455-476

Pochet, T. et al. 1991 "The binding of light nuclei and the anthropic

principle," Astronomy & Astrophysics 243:1-4

Porush, D. 1985 The Soft Machine: Cybernetic Fiction , Methuen, London,

1985.

Porush, D. 1988 "Whatever Happened to Nature in the Postmodern Novel:

The Three Umpires Conundrum" in Perceiving Nature edited by D.M. DeLuca.

Honolulu, 1988: 178-185.

Smith, Quentin 1991 "The Anthropic Coincidences, Evil, and the

Disconfirmation of Theism" J. Rel. Stud 29:347-350

Wesson, Paul S. "Constants and Cosmology: The Nature and Origin of

Fundamental Constants in Astrophysics and Particle Physics" Phys. Rev

365-406

Winograd, T. 1981 "What Does it Mean to Understand Language?" in Donald

Norman, ed. Perspectives on Cognitive Science. Norwood, N.J: Ablex

Publishing.

Wright, R. 1985 "The On -Off Universe," The Sciences (Jan/Feb) 7.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:29:38 EST

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Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      or maybe a reaction to this speech

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The Need for Transcendence in the Postmodern World

 

In this postmodern world, cultural conflicts are becoming more dangerous than

any time in history. A new model of coexistence is needed, based on man's

transcending himself.

 

By Vaclav Havel

 

There are thinkers who claim that, if the modern age began with the discovery

of America, it also ended in America. This is said to have occurred in the

year 1969, when America sent the first men to the moon. From this historical

moment, they say, a new age in the life of humanity can be dated.

 

I think there are good reasons for suggesting that the modern age has ended.

Today, many things indicate that we are going thorough a transitional period,

when it seems that something is on the way out and something else is painfully

being born. It is as if something were crumbling, decaying, and exhausting

itself, while something else, still indistinct, were arising from the rubble.

 

Periods of history when values undergo a fundamental shift are certainly not

unprecedented. This happened in the Hellenistic period, when from the ruins of

the classical world the Middle Ages were gradually born. It happened during

the Renaissance, which opened the way to the modern era. The distinguishing

features of such transitional periods are a mixing and blending of cultures

and a plurality or parallelism of intellectual and spiritual worlds. These are

periods when all consistent value systems collapse, when cultures distant in

time and space are discovered or rediscovered. They are periods when there is

a tendency to quote, to imitate, and to amplify, rather than to state with

authority or integrate. New meaning is gradually born from the encounter, or

the intersection, of many different elements.

 

Today, this state of mind or of the human world is called postmodernism. For

me, a symbol of that state is a Bedouin mounted on a camel and clad in

traditional robes under which he is wearing jeans, with a transistor radio in

his hands and an ad for Coca-Cola on the camel's back. I am not ridiculing

this, nor am I shedding an intellectual tear over the commercial expansion of

the West that destroys alien cultures. I see it rather as a typical expression

of this multicultural era, a signal that an amalgamation of cultures is taking

place. I see it as proof that something is happening, something is being born,

that we are in a phase when one age is succeeding another, when everything is

possible. Yes, everything is possible, because our civilization does not have

its own unified style, its own spirit, its own aesthetic.

 

Science and Modern Civilization

 

This is related to the crisis, or to the transformation, of science as

the basis of the modern conception of the world.The dizzying development of

this science, with its unconditional faith in objective reality and its

complete dependency on general and rationally knowable laws, led to the birth

of modern technological civilization. It is the first civilization in the

history of the human race that spans the entire globe and firmly binds

together all human societies, submitting them to a common global destiny. It

was this science that enabled man, for the first time, to see each objective

reality and its complete dependency on general and rationally knowable

 

At the same time, however, the relationship to the world that the modern

science fostered and shaped now appears to have exhausted its potential. It is

increasingly clear that, strangely, the relationship is missing something. It

fails to connect with the most intrinsic nature of reality and with natural

human experience. It is now more of a source of disintegration and doubt than

a source of integration and meaning. It produces what amounts to a state of

schizophrenia: Man as an observer is becoming completely alienated from

himself as a being.

 

Classical modern science described only the surface of things, a single

dimension of reality. And the more dogmatically science treated it as the only

dimension, as the very essence of reality, the more misleading it became.

Today, for instance, we may know immeasurably more about the universe than our

ancestors did, and yet, it increasingly seems they knew something more

essential about it than we do, something that escapes us. The same thing is

true of nature and of ourselves. The more thoroughly all our organs and their

functions, their internal structure, and the biochemical reactions that take

place within them are described, the more we seem to fail to grasp the spirit,

purpose, and meaning of the system that they create together and that we

experience as our unique "self".

 

And thus today we find ourselves in a paradoxical situation. We enjoy all the

achievements of modern civilization that have made our physical existence on

this earth easier so in many important ways. Yet we do not know exactly what

to do with ourselves, where to turn. The world of our experiences seems

chaotic, disconnected, confusing. There appear to be no integrating forces, no

unified meaning, no true inner understanding of phenomena in our experience of

the world. Experts can explain anything in the objective world to us, yet we

understand our own lives less and less. In short, we live in the postmodern

world, where everything is possible and almost nothing is certain.

 

When Nothing is Certain

 

This state of affairs has its social and political consequences. The single

planetary civilization to which we all belong confronts us with global

challenges. We stand helpless before them because our civiliza

planetary civilization to which we all belong confronts us with global

challenges. We stand helpless before them because our civilization has

essentially globalized only the surfaces of our lives. But our inner self

continues to have a life of its own. And the fewer answers the era of rational

knowledge provides to the basic questions of human Being, the more deeply it

would seem that people, behind its back as it were, cling to the ancient

certainties of their tribe. Because of this, individual cultures, increasingly

lumpe

 

Cultural conflicts are increasing and are understandably more dangerous today

than at any other time in history. The end of the era of rationalism has been

catastrophic. Armed with the same supermodern

weapons, often from the same suppliers, and followed by television cameras,

the members of various tribal cults are at war with one another. By day, we

work with statistics; in the evening, we consult astrologers and frighten

ourselves with thrillers about vampires. The abyss between rational and the

spiritual, the external and the internal, the objective and the subjective,

the technical and the moral, the universal and the unique, constantly grows

deeper.

 

Politicians are rightly worried by the problem of finding the key to ensure

the survival of a civilization that is global and at the same time clearly

multicultural. How can generally respected mechanisms of

peaceful coexistence be set up, and on what set of principles are they to be

established?

 

These questions have been highlighted with particular urgency by the two most

important political events in the second half of the twentieth century: the

collapse of colonial hegemony and the fall of communism. The artificial world

order of the past decades has collapsed, and a new, more-just order has not

yet emerged. the central political task of the final years of this century,

then, is the creation of a new model of coexistence among the various

cultures, peoples, races, and religious spheres within a single interconnected

civilization. This task is all the more urgent because other threats to

contemporary humanity brought about by one-dimensional development of

civilization are growing more serious all the time.

 

Many believe this task can be accomplished through technical means. That is,

they believe it can be accomplished through the intervention of new

organizational, political, and diplomatic instruments. Yes, it is clearly

necessary to invent organizational structures appropriate to the present

multicultural age. But such efforts are doomed to failure if they do not grow

out of something deeper, out of generally held values.

 

This, too, is well known. And in searching for the most natural source for the

creation of a new world order, we usually look to an area that is the

traditional foundation of modern justice and a great achievement of the modern

age: to a set of values that - among other things - were first declared in

this building (Independence Hall). I am referring to respect for the unique

human being and his or her liberties and inalienable rights and to the

principle that all power derives from the people. I am, in short, referring to

the fundamental ideas of modern democracy.

 

What I am about to say may sound provocative, but I feel more and more

strongly that even these ideas are not enough, that we must go farther and

deeper. The point is that the solution they offer is still, as it were,

modern, derived from the climate of the Enlightenment and from a view of man

and his relation to the world that has been characteristic of the Euro-

American sphere for the last two centuries. Today, however, we are in a

different place and facing a different situation, one to which classical

modern solutions in themselves do not give a satisfactory response. After all,

the very principle of inalienable human rights, conferred on man by the

Creator, grew out of the typically modern notion that man - as a being capable

of knowing nature and the world - was the pinnacle of creation and lord of the

world,

 

This modern anthropocentrism inevitably meant that He who allegedly endowed

man with his inalienable rights began to disappear from the world: He was so

far beyond the grasp of modern science that he was gradually pushed into a

sphere of privacy of sorts, if not directly into a sphere of private fancy -

that is, to a place where public obligations no longer apply. The existence of

a higher authority than man himself simply began to get in the way of human

aspirations.

 

Two Transcendent Ideas

 

The idea of human rights and freedoms must be an integral part of any

meaningful world order. Yet, I think it must be anchored in a different place,

and in a different way, than has been the case so far. If it is to be more

than just a slogan mocked by half the world, it cannot be expressed in the

language of a departing era, and it must not be mere froth floating on the

subsiding waters of faith in a purely scientific relationship to the

world.Paradoxically, inspiration for the renewal of this lost integrity can

once again be found in science, in a science that is new - let us say

postmodern - a science producing ideas that in a certain sense allow it to

transcend its own limits. I will give two examples:

 

The first is the Anthropic Cosmological Principle. Its authors and adherents

have pointed out that from the countless possible courses of its evolution the

universe took the only one that enabled life to

emerge. This is not yet proof that the aim of the universe has always been

that it should one day see itself through our eyes. But adherents have pointed

out that from t

 

I think the Anthropic Cosmological Principle brings to us an idea perhaps as

old as humanity itself: that we are not at all just an accidental anomaly, the

microscopic caprice of a tine particle whirling in the endless depth of the

universe. Instead, we are mysteriously connected to the entire universe, we

are mirrored in it, just as the entire evolution of the universe is mirrored

in us.

 

Until recently, it might have seemed that we were an unhappy bit of mildew on

a heavenly body whirling in space among many that have no mildew on them at

all. this was something that classical science could explain. Yet, the moment

it begins to appear that we are deeply connected to the entire universe,

science reaches the outer limits of its powers. Because it is founded on the

search for universal laws, it cannot deal with singularity, that is, with

uniqueness. The universe is a unique event and a unique story, and so far we

are the unique point of that story. But unique events and stories are the

domain of poetry, not science. With the formulation of the Anthropic

Cosmological Principle, science has found itself on the border between formula

and story, between science and myth. In that, however, science has

paradoxically returned, in a roundabout way, to man, and offers him - in new

clothing - his lost integrity. It does so by anchoring him once more in the

cosmos.

 

The second example is the Gaia Hypothesis. This theory brings together proof

that the dense network of mutual interactions between the organic and

inorganic portions of the earth's surface form a single system, a kind of

mega-organism, a living planet - Gaia - named after an ancient goddess who is

recognizable as an archetype of the Earth Mother in perhaps all religions.

According to the Gaia Hypothesis, we are parts of a greater whole. If we

endanger her, she will dispense with us in the interest of a higher value -

that is, life itself.

 

Toward Self-Transcendence

 

What makes the Anthropic Principle and the Gaia Hypothesis so inspiring? One

simple thing: Both remind us, in modern language, of what we have long

suspected, of what we have long projected into our forgotten myths and perhaps

what has always lain dormant within us as archetypes. That is, the awareness

of our being anchored in the earth and the universe, the awareness that we are

not here alone nor for ourselves alone, but that we are an integral part of

higher, mysterious entities against whom it is not advisable to blaspheme.

This forgotten awareness is encoded in all religions. All cultures anticipate

it in various forms. It is one of the things that form the basis of man's

understanding of himself, of his place in the world, and ultimately of the

world as such.A modern philosopher once said: "Only a God can save us now."

 

Yes, the only real hope of people today is probably a renewal of our certainty

that we are rooted in the earth and, at the same time, in the cosmos. This

awareness endows us with the capacity for

self-transcendence. Politicians at international forums may reiterate a

thousand times that the basis of the new world order must be universal

respects for human rights, but it will mean nothing as long as this imperative

does not derive from the respect of the miracle of Being, the miracle of the

universe, the miracle of nature, the miracle of our own existence. Only

someone who submits to the authority of the universal order and of creation,

who values the right to be a part of it and a participant in it, can genuinely

value himself and his neighbors, and thus honor their rights as well.

 

It logically follows that, in today's multicultural world, the truly reliable

path to coexistence, to peaceful coexistence and creative cooperation, must

start from what is at the root of all cultures and what lies infinitely deeper

in human hearts and minds than political opinion, convictions, antipathies, or

sympathies - it must be rooted in self-transcendence:

 

 Transcendence as a hand reached out to those close to us, to foreigners, to

the human community, to all living creatures, to nature, to the universe.

 Transcendence as a deeply and joyously experienced need to be in harmony even

with what we ourselves are not, what we do not understand, what seems distant

from us in time and space, but with which we are nevertheless mysteriously

linked because, together with us, all this constitutes a single world.

 Transcendence as the only real alternative to extinction.

 

The Declaration of Independence states that the Creator gave man the right to

liberty. It seems man can realize that liberty only if he does noto liberty.

It seems man can realize that

 

About the Author

Vaclav Havel is the president of the Czech Republic. The speech was made in

Independence Hall, Philadelphia, July 4, 1994.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:34:04 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>> A few things.

>> f) for those studying the beats, i have nothing against that - not my

>> thing.

> 

>or not my thang -- the African for thing according to Tom Wolfe

> 

>david rhaesa

>at the Beat-Hotel

> 

 

what?

 

-Greg

 

 

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:38:31 PST

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From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      hitch-hiking....

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I would love to hitchhike and I planned to start doing so last summer...

but ended up, well as things always end up, never started and never

finished.

I always wondered if there's still a lot of people out there picking up

hitchers, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of people in our nation who

would be willing to risk life and limb to get someone a ride.

Anyhow, feel free to stop by Stillwater Minnesota (near st

paul/minneapolis) if your hitching next summer.

 

-greg

 

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:40:11 PST

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Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: alexander supertramp

Content-Type: text/plain

 

> 

><< who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>

> 

>if your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously

doubt yours

>is, what awaits is death.

> 

>have you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?

> 

> 

>brian

> 

 

that is an increbile story... that's all there is to it, makes you

realize that if wandering out and living an honest life is your thing,

it's not impossible.

 

 

 

 

 

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:41:10 -0500

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Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>

Subject:      Bookwoman goes Beat

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This is  a work in progress, should be finished this week.  Let me know

what you think.

 

http://boondock.com/bookwoman/

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:48:52 PST

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Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      alexander supertramp

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Jon Krackaurer (correct spelling?) wrote a book called "Into the Wild"

about Alexander Supertramp. It is an excellent book, well researched

with extensive interviews of the many people supertramp touched during

the two years between "dissappearing" and "reappearing" dead in the

Alaskan wilderness.

Krackaurer is an expert mountain climber and outdoorsman, a writer for

Outside magazine. You might know of his most recent expeditition, he was

one of the few who survived the summit trip of Mt. Everest in which a

blizzard killed several people. He wrote a book about it of course,

which I have not read.

 

Anyway, "Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the

Alaskan wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die

is from a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress

brought on by suburbia and corporate work.

He may have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw

up simply by dying in the wilderness.

 

-Greg

 

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:53:42 EST

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From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: alexander supertramp

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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In a message dated 98-01-06 12:45:35 EST, you write:

 

<< that is an increbile story... that's all there is to it, makes you

 realize that if wandering out and living an honest life is your thing,

 it's not impossible. >>

 

 

perhaps incredible to an extent, but also to make you realize that if not

impossible, at least makes sure that you plan on doing with an intelligent

manner at the same time.....by all my best intuitions, i fully realize if i

were to attempt that right now, i'd probably wind up dying as well.......but

that's just inexperience on top of everything else.....

 

brian

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:53:53 -0500

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Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Susan L Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject:      hitch-hiking

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I realize that this isn't _exactly_ the same as hitch-hiking, but given the

state of the country today, it may be an acceptable alternative...

 

During the summer of 96', a friend of mine bought an unlimited pass from

Greyhound (I don't remember how much it cost) and spent the summer seeing the

country.  He still had a great adventure and met lots of interesting people, but

he just didn't actually hitch rides from people.  The way I understand the pass

is that you can go anywhere you want, anytime, until the pass expires.

 

I would love to do it someday, but I agree with whoever said that its probably

more dangerous for a young woman out there.

 

This is my first post to the list...next time I'll try for something a little

more on topic!

 

Susan

 

P.S.  Julian-As far as cities in Michigan go, Port Huron isn't so bad!  I've

lived in Michigan pretty much my whole life, and have seen far worse.  If you

go to college, you'll find more of the kind of people that you seek.  Perhaps

even some of the people that you know right now will become enlightened as they

mature also.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:58:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Burroughs, Wittgenstein

In-Reply-To:  <199801060802.DAA29006@ionline.net>

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I want to speak out wholeheartedly in support of Mike's queries regarding

Wittgenstein and Burroughs-- two major thinkers on language in our

century. I can only assume that anyone that would dismiss this kind of

question hasn't read any Burroughs, or doesn't care to think about what

they've read. Burroughs was as much of a language theorist as anyone, and

his ideas can be batted around with those who explored language in a

non-fictional setting. I've only had a chance to read the first chapter of

"Wising up the Marks" and this is exactly what's going on in that book.

Burroughs has referred to himself as a pure scientist, risking his sanity

on forays of investigative research into bizarre psychological,

linguistic, and pharmacological realms. Sometimes in his more theoretical

passages, it even reads like a textbook.

 

When Sherri said:

"and i agree that Burroughs whole take on language could be viewed as a

study of semiotics."

 

she was bang on. If you want to see Burroughs on semiotics, read "the book

of breeething", a study in glyphic languages, sign systems, and Hassan I

Sabbah. Or, I refer you to my post on Brion Gysin's work in "The

Exterminator":

 

"The idea, as far as I can tell, is that Gysin rubs out the word by first

permutating phrases so that they lose any singular meaning, becoming

merely an arrangement yielding polysemous underpinnings when mixed; and

secondly by a semiotic shift to typographic symbols, which shifts the

signifier/signified relationship from letter-phonetic based

representations with their aural basis to a purely visual sign. The word

is finally rubbed out when words are lost to calligraphy without meaning,

writing without communication, signifiers without a signified."

 

Sure, affective fallacy is great, but its fun to use your brain sometimes

too.

 

And for the person whose only exposure to serious thought about language

is through an AOL chat room, maybe you would learn more about what you

despise if you actually read a book. I suggest Wittgenstein or Derrida for

fun.

 

Neil

 

Double Major - English Literature & Computer Science.

 

"Whenever I bring up philosophy you always get a headache!"

"What do you know about Wittgenstein or any of the greats?"

"He's read the brown book once and thinks he knows philosophy."

               The Toronto Research Group

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:08:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: New Orleans

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 11:25 AM 1/6/98 EST, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

>If whoever posted on this recently still has

>the address or directions to the house, I'd appreciate

>it if you would post them to be at the above

>address.

 

Hey Bill,

 

According to _Tribe_ magazine, the address is:

 

509 Wagner St. in Algiers.

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:27:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: alexander supertramp

In-Reply-To:  <199801061748.JAA06563@f135.hotmail.com>

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>Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote

>Anyway, "Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the

>Alaskan wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die

>is from a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress

>brought on by suburbia and corporate work.

>He may have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw

>up simply by dying in the wilderness.

> 

>-Greg

 

Interesting comments Greg.

 

I just read Krackaurer's book. However, as one who has spent a little time

in the wilderness I must say that anyone who walks into an Alaskan

"wildernerss" with a few books, a 22 rifle and 25 pounds of rice is asking

for trouble. That Alex was an intelligent young man made his decision even

sadder.

 

I take exception to your last comment  "... you CAN NOT screw up simply by

dying in the wilderness." The only time you haven't screwed up if you die

in the wilderness, is if you die of old age. Any death that could be

avoided by living intelligently is a stupid way to die.

 

j grant

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:50:03 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      alexander supertramp

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Ok, I'll take the bait... who exactly is Alexander Supertramp?

 

And while I'm asking... Has anybody here heard of a poet named Karen Fish? Not

very beat, but still an excellent excellent writer (who unfortunately is a

little hard to find...the books I mean.)

 

--Stephanie

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:53:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199801061557.HAA03897@f82.hotmail.com>

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At 07:57 AM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:

> hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid

>hitch-hikers out there anymore?....

> sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.

> please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"

>system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this

>summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get

>real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you

>"on the road"

>-julian

> 

>______________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

> 

Julian, aren't you the 18 year old kid who has experience

beyond your years.  You're about to start a flame war with

your provocative remarks.  I'm looking forward to it, it could

be a doozy.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:01:45 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Florian Cramer <cantsin@ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>

Subject:      Re: German

In-Reply-To:  <6ddad5b8.34b26786@aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Kindlesan wrote:

 

> oh most gracias to you, my newfound friend!!!!!!!!!!  ;o)

> 

> the first one:

> 

> eingeweiht in der Liebe

> aber erst hier-

> als die Lava herabfuhr

> und ihr Hauch uns traf

> am Fuss des Berges,

> als zuletzt der erschvpfte Krater

> den Schl|ssel preisgab

> f|r diese verschlossenen Kvrper-

 

initiated into love

but only here

when lava came down

and its breath (/breeze) touched us

at the base of the mountain

when the exhausted crater finally

divulged the key

for these locked (/sealed) bodies-

We entered spellbound rooms

and shed light on the darkness

with our fingertips

> 

> Wir traten ein in verwunschene Ra|me

> und leuchteten das Dunkelaus

> mit den Fingerspitzen

> 

> 

> another one....

> 

> Innen ist deine Hufte ein Landungssteg

> f|r meine Schiffe, die heimkommen

> von zu grossen Fahrten.

> 

> Das Gl|ck wirkt ein Silbertau,

> an dem ich Defestigt liege.

> 

 

Inside your hip is a landing stage

for my ships coming home

from overly long journeys (/voyage).

 

Joy (/fortune) weaves a silver rope,

to which I am anchored.

 

> another........

> 

> Innen ist dein Mund ein flaumiges Nest

> f|r meine fl|gge werdende Zunge.

> Innen ist dein Fleisch...

> 

> das ich mit meinen Trdnen wasche

> und das mich einmal aufwiegen wird.

> 

 

Inside your mouth is a downy nest

for my tongue becoming able to fly.

Inside is your flesh....

 

that I rinse with my tears

and that will balance me out (/sustain me) some day.

 

> fragment...

> 

> Innen sind deine Knochen helle Flvten,

> aus denen ich Tvne zaubern kann,

> die auch den Tod bestricken werden...

> 

 

Inside your bones are bright flutes

I can conjure tunes out of,

which will also charm death...

 

> the last one

> 

> Ich bin noch schuldig. Heb mich auf.

> Ich bin nicht schuldig. Heb mich auf.

> 

> Das Eiskorn lvs vom zugefrornen Aug,

> brich mit den Blicken ein,

> die blauen Grunde such,

> schwimm, schau und tauch:

> 

> Ich bin es nicht.

> Ich bin's.

 

I am still guilty. Take me up.

I am not guilty. Take me up.

 

Remove the ice grain from my frozen eye,

break in with your glance,

look for the blue grounds,

swim, look, and dive.

 

It's not me

It's me.

 

> 

> thank you very much for whatever you can translate.......very much appreciated

> brian

 

 

As a kraut, I bet this is no canonical literature, but some

lowbrow/vanity press/highschool stuff. Acker once had a German

boyfriend, maybe he or his circle of friends are connected to the

"source".

 

Florian

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:12:05 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Florian Cramer <cantsin@ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>

Subject:      Re: German

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SGI.3.96.980106233129.12006C-100000@komma.fddi2.fu-berlin.de>

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On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Florian Cramer wrote:

 

> Inside your hip is a landing stage

Correction: Your hip is a landing stage inside(!)

 

Florian

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:22:09 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: pre-Beat, post-Beat, and Beat

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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Hi,

I put out DHARMA beat, A Jack Kerouac newsletter, and am looking for somebody

to do an article on Post beat writers, who carry on the beat

tradition....whatever that may mean. Are you interested in writing something?

The article is pertinent now that the main triad has passed on. Let me know.

 

peace, Attila

 

 

In a message dated 97-05-23 08:36:05 EDT, you write:

 

<< Another idea -- has this been discussed yet? -- is the post-Beats. Yeah we

 can debate about whether or not the Beat Generation ended when Kerouac

 appeared on the Tonight Show or death of Ginsberg or whatever, but out of

 all the literary movements since (and what are the big ones?), who out there

 have been clearly influenced by the Beats?

 

 For one, there seems to be a new cyber-psychedelic movement of writers

 emerging in this decade, with Howard Rheingold, Terence McKenna and Douglas

 Rushkoff being the first to come to mind, and they seem to be directly next

 in line with Tim Leary & Albert Hoffman, decending down from the Whole Earth

 60s, also heavily borrowing from Alan Watts philosophies with a hefty dose

 of (non-Beat) tech reporting a la Steven Levy's _Hackers_ thrown in for good

 measure.

 

 What else post-Beat is going on, someone care to tell me. I always thought

 Bret Easton Ellis took the structure of _Visions of Cody_ to heart when he

 wrote _The Rules of Attraction_ (one of his finest works). I wonder what

 he'd say about that. >>

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:22:36 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>At 07:57 AM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:

>> hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid

>>hitch-hikers out there anymore?....

>> sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.

>> please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"

>>system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this

>>summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get

>>real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for

you

>>"on the road"

>>-julian

>> 

>>______________________________________________________

>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

>> 

>> 

>Julian, aren't you the 18 year old kid who has experience

>beyond your years.  You're about to start a flame war with

>your provocative remarks.  I'm looking forward to it, it could

>be a doozy.

> 

>Mike Rice

> 

How is what Julian said going to provoke a flame war???

 

-greg

 

 

______________________________________________________

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:22:15 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Kerouac's Birthday

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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Hello:

 

Two things,

Kerouac's Birthday is coming up in March so you should start planning some

event in your area, like a Kerouac reading, movie, lecture, appreciation, get

together.

 

second, if you have a Kerouac event, or know about one, please let me know so

I could include it in the calender I have on the web at

<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/calender.html

">http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/calender.html</A>

and also include it in DHARMA beat's next issue, due out in March.

 

Always looking for people to write articles about Kerouac, his life, and his

writings.

 

thanks, and enjoy,

Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:32:49 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: alexander supertramp

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>>Anyway, "Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the

>>Alaskan wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die

>>is from a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress

>>brought on by suburbia and corporate work.

>>He may have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw

>>up simply by dying in the wilderness.

>> 

>>-Greg

 

 

> 

>Interesting comments Greg.

> 

>I just read Krackaurer's book. However, as one who has spent a little

time

>in the wilderness I must say that anyone who walks into an Alaskan

>"wildernerss" with a few books, a 22 rifle and 25 pounds of rice is

asking

>for trouble. That Alex was an intelligent young man made his decision

even

>sadder.

> 

>I take exception to your last comment  "... you CAN NOT screw up simply

by

>dying in the wilderness." The only time you haven't screwed up if you

die

>in the wilderness, is if you die of old age. Any death that could be

>avoided by living intelligently is a stupid way to die.

 

Differing points of view. I agree that it would be better to die in the

wilderness of old age than of poison berries but a friend of mine (who

has also read the book) agreed that we think his way of dying was

admirable if nothing else. Alex died because of his own mistakes, his

own lack of ability. That is the best way to die. To be completely in

control of whether you live or die is life, anything else... just isn't.

 

Maybe I miswrote in my earlier post.. it was not a stupid way, it was a

mistake-filled, inexperience caused way but not stupid. It was

definitely an admirable way to live an and admirable way to die. I am

not planning on going out and living in the wild until I eventually

screw up and die so that I can die knowing that I brought it upon

myself. But I will admire Supertramp for being in control of every

aspect of his life and death.

 

I hope I have made myself clear, I dont' really feel that I have.

 

-Greg

 

ps. In response to the question about who Alexander Supertramp was I

dn't feel I really can say.

A few brief facts: he (I think)graduated from college  a wealthy young

man. He had $25000 in his checking account which he donated to charity.

His parents called his phone number at school after not hearing anything

out of him for a few weeks and discovered he hadn't been there for quite

a while.

They heard nothing of him for two years until his body was found by an

abandoned trailer in the middle of the Alaskan bush.

The author essentially tracked down where Supertramp (the name he took

after leaving school) had been those two years and discovered he had

affected a lot of people in a lot of ways.

That's all I really want to get into, a remarkable true story.

 

 

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:25:41 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: julian

Content-Type: text/plain

 

 to the person who spoke to me about exactly caused me to end up "beyond

my years"

 i have lived basically homeless for 4 years, and am only 18, i have

lived with two teachers, a lover, three wiccan friends, in a half-way

house, and anywhere else you can imagine, of done abit of one-man

hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to learn about yourself and

think...

 until recently, i never had many friens, and i liked it that way, i

just read a few books a week, staying up to see the sun-rise, and then

go to school....

 also, i am bisexual, and open about it...

 that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i

have been geaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened

numerous times..

 i may be generalizing when i say that my town has a strong lack of

intelligence, but that is generally all i have seen...

 the wise and strong friends i have made here, have gottenout...all but

me...i have to suffer one more year here, i even dropped out of

highschool for three weeks, something i had always said i would never

do.

 i have "lived" more than many people my age...

 but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have

someone recieved  reputation as the

"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-take-me-home-to-mommy-guy"

 and have nearly built a following of a sort, i practically give

lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen, wondering my

feelings on certain subjects...it can get nerve racking, but i'm a

little giddy at all the attention i suppose...

 anyway...

i have lived a "hard-knock-life"...i am well aware that a lot of people

have had it worse, but one of the reasons i joined this list is to learn

more about this interesting and wonderful culture, i suppose i could not

call myself a "beat"....but who could at first?...

 i hope i answered the questions that were posed to me...

 -julian

 

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:34:41 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: your mail

Content-Type: text/plain

 

 nancy, if that's the way you feel, ok, i can understand that...

 but...in this life, you only live for a limited amount of years, and

this may be something you want to try when you are young...if you dream

of it...

 with women, it isn't all that safe by yourself, if i were a woman i

probably wouldn't do it alone...

but as i said, i want to go with the "buddy" system...

 anyway, its up to you....

 but nothing is going to happen to anyone i travel with i simply

wouldn't let it happen, i carry pepperspray at all times with me now,

and i would suggest no less for you...

 -julian

 

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:37:21 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: alexander supertramp

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan  6 08:23:22 1998

>Received: from listserv (128.228.100.10) by listserv.cuny.edu (LSMTP

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>Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:19:43 EST

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>From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

>Subject:      alexander supertramp

>To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>In a message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:

> 

><< who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>

> 

>if your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously

doubt yours

>is, what awaits is death.

> 

>have you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?

> 

> 

>brian

> 

no brian, i have never heard of alexander suprtramp...

this isn't a lecture on "hitchhiking in today's society" is it?...

if not...

who is he?...

 

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:53:54 PST

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From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: hitch-hiking

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan  6 10:05:11 1998

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>Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:53:53 -0500

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>Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From:         Susan L Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

>Subject:      hitch-hiking

>To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>I realize that this isn't _exactly_ the same as hitch-hiking, but given

the

>state of the country today, it may be an acceptable alternative...

> 

>During the summer of 96', a friend of mine bought an unlimited pass

from

>Greyhound (I don't remember how much it cost) and spent the summer

seeing the

>country.  He still had a great adventure and met lots of interesting

people, but

>he just didn't actually hitch rides from people.  The way I understand

the pass

>is that you can go anywhere you want, anytime, until the pass expires.

> 

>I would love to do it someday, but I agree with whoever said that its

probably

>more dangerous for a young woman out there.

> 

>This is my first post to the list...next time I'll try for something a

little

>more on topic!

> 

>Susan

> 

>P.S.  Julian-As far as cities in Michigan go, Port Huron isn't so bad!

I've

>lived in Michigan pretty much my whole life, and have seen far worse.

If you

>go to college, you'll find more of the kind of people that you seek.

Perhaps

>even some of the people that you know right now will become enlightened

as they

>mature also.

> 

actually, i said port huron as a land mark, i live in jeddo, which has a

population of about 250, and the biggest news in years was when one guy

was a distant relative timothy mcviegh

 

that bus thing sounds like fun, but you don't get to know PEOPLE tht

way...i spent some quality time with some really wonderful people...

playing my guitar with them, or for them....

i'll look into the bus thing though...it seems interesting...

 

______________________________________________________

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=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:56:16 PST

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Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: alexander supertramp

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan  6 10:03:11 1998

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>Message-ID:  <199801061748.JAA06563@f135.hotmail.com>

>Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:48:52 PST

>Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

>Subject:      alexander supertramp

>To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>Jon Krackaurer (correct spelling?) wrote a book called "Into the Wild"

>about Alexander Supertramp. It is an excellent book, well researched

>with extensive interviews of the many people supertramp touched during

>the two years between "dissappearing" and "reappearing" dead in the

>Alaskan wilderness.

>Krackaurer is an expert mountain climber and outdoorsman, a writer for

>Outside magazine. You might know of his most recent expeditition, he

was

>one of the few who survived the summit trip of Mt. Everest in which a

>blizzard killed several people. He wrote a book about it of course,

>which I have not read.

> 

>Anyway, "Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the

>Alaskan wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die

>is from a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress

>brought on by suburbia and corporate work.

>He may have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw

>up simply by dying in the wilderness.

> 

>-Greg

> 

>______________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

amen.

-julian

 

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Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:03:11 PST

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>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan  6 15:03:47 1998

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>Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:53:47 -0500

>Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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>From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

>To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>In-Reply-To:  <199801061557.HAA03897@f82.hotmail.com>

> 

>At 07:57 AM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:

>> hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid

>>hitch-hikers out there anymore?....

>> sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.

>> please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"

>>system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this

>>summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get

>>real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for

you

>>"on the road"

>>-julian

>> 

>>______________________________________________________

>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

>> 

>> 

>Julian, aren't you the 18 year old kid who has experience

>beyond your years.  You're about to start a flame war with

>your provocative remarks.  I'm looking forward to it, it could

>be a doozy.

> 

>Mike Rice

> 

thank you mike for pointing that out to me, i hadn't realized that it

could be taken that way....

anouncement:

I AM NOT SOME SEX FIEND OR SOMETHING...I AM JUST LOOKING TO MEET PEOPLE,

HONESTLY, I AM JUST A "STARRY-EYED" KID OUT TO SEE THE WORLD....

 

*g*

 

i hope that cleared everything up...

 

______________________________________________________

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=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:52:43 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: hitch-hiking....

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:

> 

> I would love to hitchhike and I planned to start doing so last summer...

> but ended up, well as things always end up, never started and never

> finished.

> I always wondered if there's still a lot of people out there picking up

> hitchers, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of people in our nation who

> would be willing to risk life and limb to get someone a ride.

> Anyhow, feel free to stop by Stillwater Minnesota (near st

> paul/minneapolis) if your hitching next summer.

> 

> -greg

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

 

i often have provided transport in exchange for conversation to folks

along the sides of the various routes zig-zagging here and there around

this lovely nation.  i must admit that since the last thread in this

vein i have, for some odd reason, had that moment of second-thought

concerning safety that on an accelerating ramp on or off an Ike-route is

long enough to pass by the lonesome traveler and i am then left the

lonesome driver with no one but my active imagination with which to

convese.

 

david rhaesa

at the Beat Hotel in Lawrence

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:58:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: hakim bey

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Kindlesan wrote:

> 

> has anyone ever read any poetry by a person named hakim bey?

> 

> brian

 

no i haven't.

<yawn> sorry i just woke up from a siesta

 

david rhaesa

at the Beat-Hotel

 

p.s.  sorry for the chatter-banter ... my Ludwig W. books are on the

shelf in Salina and so I'm not up to following that thread yet.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:21:53 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         SPElias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: hakim bey

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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yea, of coarse we have, can't remember there naymes, butt they we'reel

witty.....

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:37:46 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      This Land is your land

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some interest on the list connects the beat thang with the legacy of

woody guthrie and i've received backchannels concerning such threads

before.  i thought i'd report that while perusing the KMART children's

video for presents for nieces and nephews i saw a copy of an animation

titled This Land is Your Land introducing youngsters to the music of

Woody G.  I was happy to see that they included "So Long It's Been Good

to Know Ya" in the collection.  Didn't get it.  Maybe next trip to a

KMART (which might be awhile).

 

Right now sitting in Patricia's basement.  Little Richard is FLAMING as

only LR can do through a version of Rock Island Line and having walked

that line before i can say this is the best version known to human

beings.  Patricia is cataloguing material on Lena's computer and I'm

typing this note and Arlo is singing East Texas Red the meanest bull in

town.

 

Who can say more about Woody and Leadbelly that ain't already been

written or said by them or someone else here or in Tonganoxie.  The

Vision Shared tribute we're listening to was something or other to make

money to buy the Moe Asch archives for the Smithsonian or someplace.  A

good cause.

 

I remember my visit to New York City when i went looking around the

skyscraped sky looking for Folkways Headquarters - i was obsessed to

death with this old cat named Phil Ochs who hung himself on a bad day

for me at least and i found the address and there weren't nothin' there

but a box with numbers and buttons by the door.  I found one said

Folkways and pushed the button...A woman's voice answers and says what

do i want and i says i've come all the way from Kansas in search of Phil

Ochs and she says they're normally mail order only but for a real Kansan

she can make an exception and buzzes me in and up the Elevator.  So I

buy everything with any Ochs on it including the Interviews and the

collections with Blind Boy Grunt and am about to head out the door --

 

and there on the desk in front of this Caribbean Queen posing as a

secretary is an issue of Sis Cunningham's little newsletter Broadside

and on the cover is Phil Ochs.  And i say well would you look at that -

there's Phil on the desk.  And she says I can have it.  I said really

and she said yes.  I pick it up and on the other side is the mailing

sticker for Moe.

 

Moe passed away as people do we're all just passing through this mist.

 

Now EmmyLou is singing the Hobo's Lullaby.  And i'll let the words close

 

go to sleep

you weary hobo

let the towns drift slowly by

can't you hear the steel rails humming

that's

a hobo's lullaby.....

 

bye bye

 

david rhaesa

at the Beat-Hotel

i'll resubscribe in Salina soon

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:40:48 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

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i'm from michigan  i live by grand rapids

 

 

   chad

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:15:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Susan L Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject:      One last comment...

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I apologize for posting this to the list, but I don't have Julian's e-mail

address to do it privately...

 

1)  My friend who bought the bus pass actually met lots of people.  He would

spend time in various towns and cities that appealed to him.    (and may even

have hitched short distances occasionally, I don't remember)  And, he actually

met people on the bus.  I guess who you meet all depends on what you make of

it.

 

2)  Send me your e-mail address if you want, I have a lot of things I'd like to

talk with you about.

 

That's it...I'll try to keep personal stuff off the list now!

 

Susan

deansusa@pilot.msu.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:23:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: One last comment...

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Susan L Dean wrote:

> 

> I apologize for posting this to the list, but I don't have Julian's e-mail

> address to do it privately...

> 

> 1)  My friend who bought the bus pass actually met lots of people.  He would

> spend time in various towns and cities that appealed to him.    (and may even

> have hitched short distances occasionally, I don't remember)  And, he actually

> met people on the bus.  I guess who you meet all depends on what you make of

> it.

> 

> 2)  Send me your e-mail address if you want, I have a lot of things I'd like

 to

> talk with you about.

> 

> That's it...I'll try to keep personal stuff off the list now!

> 

> Susan

> deansusa@pilot.msu.edu

 

i had a friend who did the bus pass deal sometime before or after

walking the Appalachian Trail (where he's known as EZ rider) his name is

Robert Thomas and he went to Emory University in Atlanta and as i recall

he probably never graduated.  but last i saw him in Winston-Salem North

Carolina he was still enjoying life ... i hear that the train passes

aren't a bad summer buy either.

 

david rhaesa

at the Beat Hotel

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:28:45 PST

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From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan  6 19:46:12 1998

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>Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:40:48 EST

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>From:         Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>

>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

>To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>i'm from michigan  i live by grand rapids

> 

> 

>   chad

> 

well, tell me about yourself...

-julian

 

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=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:29:23 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: alexander supertramp

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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In a message dated 98-01-06 21:07:51 EST, you write:

 

<< no brian, i have never heard of alexander suprtramp...

 this isn't a lecture on "hitchhiking in today's society" is it?...

~~~nope........subtle sarcasm.....meaning don't let idealism lead you to

disaster, but judging by your last emails, i would presume you might have had

a good share, perhaps of that, by now

 

 if not...

 who is he?...

~~~i presume you have been reading all the posts on him by now.........

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:34:47 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: German

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oh most gracious benevolent florian, thank you.

 

thank you. thank you.

 

now to see if this helps me with the book.

 

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:35:10 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         CodyPomera <CodyPomera@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD

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For a catalog, thanks!:

 

George Russell

PO Box 10667

Bainbridge Island, WA  98110

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:50:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: hakim bey (Ludwig. W)

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 08:58 PM 1/6/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:

 

>p.s.  sorry for the chatter-banter ... my Ludwig W.

>books are on the shelf in Salina and so I'm not up

>to following that thread yet.

 

Looking forward to the follow up David!!  In the midst

of Augustine, Aquinas, and Luther for a Christian

Ethics course at the moment and I could use the outside

entertainment. . .  Time permitting of course!! {;^>

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:54:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: This Land is your land

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:37 PM 1/6/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:

 

>So I buy everything with any Ochs on it including

>the Interviews and the collections with Blind Boy Grunt

>and am about to head out the door --

 

Speaking of Blind Boy Grunt, he was just nominated

for a couple Grammy's (Album of the Year, Folk Album of

the Year, and Best Rock Vocal - Male).  At least

I believe this is what I heard. . .

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:12:23 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      long list, warning

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I am trying to sort out my basement stuff. and need motivation.  so i am

posting my very very rough draft list of some of the stuff.  sorry if it

is too long.

want idea and feed back on how to make this list

 

patricia

Stuff in the beat hotel basement.

Partial list

 

Books

 

The Wild Boys: A Book of the Dead, by William S. Burroughs, signed (to

Pat - 82) 2nd printing, Hardback with Dust jacket, copyright 1969.

(cover slight tear)

 

Cities of the Red Night, by William S. Burroughs, signed (to Pat - 83)

First Edition excellent condition with dust jacket hard back

 

The Place of Dead Roads, by William S. Burroughs, signed (to Pat - 84)

First Edition, excellent condition with dust jacket. Hard back

 

Queer   viking, 1985 ,signed to pat, dust jacket, hard back

 

The Job , Interviews with William S. Burroughs by Daniel Odier.Penquin,

paperback.,signed by wsb, 96

excellant condition

 

my education (a book of dreams)  hardback, dust jacket, penquin, signed

by wsb to pat. 91

 

The Cat Inside,  hardback, no dust , viking, signed to pat, first

edition,

 

The third Mind, william s. burroughs and brion gysin, signed to pat,

viking,hardback, dust cover, excellent condition.

First edition.

 

Letters to allen ginsberg, full court press, paper back, excellent

condition.  Signed

 

Early Routines , small paperback, signed to pat. Excellent condition,

Cadmus editions 1982

 

Ruski, small paperback (signed, wsb 1984 (no 29 of 500 copies)

 

three, - retreat diaries, two signed by wsb, allen, james, and david

ohle,

      one signed by wsb, james and david,. City moon 1976 (2,000 copies.

 

 

naked lunch, paperback, torn, dirty, unsigned

 

The Nova Broadcast #5: The Dead Star, by William S. Burroughs, signed

(to Pat -85) printed 1969 - Nova Broadcast Press: San Francisco.

 

Nova Convention progam, new york, nov, december. 1978

 

Everything is permitted, the making of naked lunch, paperback,

 

Gallery notices

Tony Shafrazi  gallery December 19 through January 24 1988 - poster with

three ply wood pictures and one of William at what I think is his front

porch clean folded into 4.

 

Gasllery, book, galerie carzaniga & ueker basel

 

Postcard of Kellas gallery opening, sept nov 1989 (red painting)

 

Gallery Casasinnombre  William S. Burroughs August 13 - September 24,

1988.  Invitation to opening reception - postcard of "The Meal Sickness"

1987.

 

 

Christmas card -1988 picture of  Untitled Window 6, signed (to Patricia)

 

Gallery reception card, picture, Klien gallery 1988

 

Gallery book,  cover, the metal sickness, signed to pat, casasinnombre

gallery  1988

 

Christmas card , picture gluttony , 1992  signed by william and james

 

Christmas card, elf, signed by william 92,

 

pistol target, from 2/17/85, signed by wsb

 

bardo card, directions to williams bardo

 

Narcotics: Nature's Dangerous Gifts, Revised edition of Norman Taylor's

Flight from Reality.  Gift to Pat from William.

 

Flowers in the Blood: The Story of Opium, by Dean Latimer and Jeff

Goldberg - Introduction by William S. Burroughs.  Signed by William.

Copyright 1981 Franklin Watts.  Cover slightly worn

 

 

 

 

River City Reunion

 

river city reunionplain poster signed by , william s burroughs, edie

keroauac, diana di prima, micheal mclure, jay carrol, Jeff miller, gene

bernofsky, roger martin, sharon dsteven l, tim miller, john giorno, ed

dorn, ed ruhe, barbara hawkins, ,john moritz, peggy billings, mark

kaplan, allen ginsberg,      shelly miller, danny bently, barry

shalinsky, clark coan, rosemary leon kimball, b roberts, ken lasman,

barry billings. Wayne propst, steve bunch, david ohle, david hann,

william f. hatke, susan brasseau, steven lowe, george wedge,  etc

 

River City Reunion, Union Burning T-Shirt, Designed by BDR, XL, White

and Clean

river city reunion sclay wilson tee shirt, allen and william trucking

 

river city reunion flyers

1, blue poster for Husker du, liberty hall, river city reunion, sept.13

,87

1 pink marianne Faithfull poster, with fernando Saunders. Michael

McClure, Danny Sugerman, Thursday Sept. 10th.

1 robert Creelyey, James McCrary, David Ohle, Wayne Propst, leaonard

Macruder, at the bottleneck, tues. sept 8.

1 flyer, yellow, timothy leary, Liberty hall sept, 12

1 flyer, ed sanders, jum carroll, ed dorn. Friday sept 11 liberty hall.

 

One  large poster of "Howard Dewey, mule driver from lecompton, by and

signed, wayne s. propst. Jr.

 

(16 pages of proof of cat inside)

 

(one large weatherman poster,  "new Morning - changing weather

 

 2- color river city reunion posters, one signed by wsb

 

Two large color art posters of wsb "western lands"

 

Two large color art poster of anne walden poem, "Romance,

 

One large color art poster of philip whalen "window"

 

 

10 pamplets, by Frankie "Edie" Kerouac-Parker, "Essays & Poems

Celebrating The 1987 River city Reunion

three signed on front, six      ` unsigned. One signed inside,

white plain, excellant condition

 

 

ljw clipping, burroughs mug hawking sneakers 7/9/94

 

ljw, clipping review of lee and the boys in the backroom by paul lim

 

large framed poster from birthday party in newyork, 70 years, signed by

artiist and william,  a shadowy silluette, very good.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:44:36 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Julian Ruck wrote:

> 

>  hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid

> hitch-hikers out there anymore?....

>  sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.

>  please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"

> system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this

> summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get

> real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you

> "on the road"

> -julian

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

 

 

i live far away...but if you're willing to wait...

 

there is a chance that i will be coming to the US in fall...hitchhiking

has never been my strong side, though i tried. somehow it seems to me

that people have changed and that the times are not as good as they used

to be. what are your experiences?

 

ksenijs

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:25:54 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: julian

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 98-01-06 20:36:01 EST, you write:

 

i have lived basically homeless for 4 years,

~~~personal choice or unavoidable situation?

 

done a bit of one-man hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to learn

about yourself and think...

~~~yeah, so does being an introvert in high school with a predeliction(sp?)

for not enjoying the company of too many people

 

i just read a few books a week

~~~who be your favorite authors?

 

also, i am bisexual, and open about it...

~~~you put up with a lot of shit concerning prejudice?

 

that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i have

been beaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened numerous

times..

~~~personal choice or unavoidable

 

i even dropped out of highschool for three weeks, something i had always said

i would never do.

~~~why'd you do it?

 

  i have "lived" more than many people my age...

~~~perhaps this may be true for america

 

but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have someone

recieved  reputation as the "off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-

take-me-home-to-mommy-guy" and have nearly built a following of a sort, i

practically give lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen,

wondering my feelings on certain subjects...

~~~what makes this a happy ending for you?

 

i suppose i could not call myself a "beat"....but who could at first?...

~~~of course, this depends on who you are talking to......i've heard some say

that even within the beat movement, the word "beat" itself was detested by

some.....perhaps.......but i am limited in my knowledge, not having read much

and been there myself

 

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:29:52 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: hiking

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Ksenija Simic wrote:

> 

> there is a chance that i will be coming to the US in fall...hitchhiking

> has never been my strong side, though i tried. somehow it seems to me

> that people have changed and that the times are not as good as they used

> to be. what are your experiences?

> 

> ksenijs

 

how nice,  i would be interested in your itinery ideas.  If you came

through kansas, i would love to meet you.  I hitched hiked a lot for

years, in us, mexico, and canada,  i wos warned most about mexico but

had the evilest time in kansas city. and outside omaha.  I loved hitch

hiking and loved the geography the best.  I also rode a lot of buses and

found it more people oriented somehow than hitching.  but hitching let

me bond with geography more.

so where do you think you want to go?

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:47:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: julian

In-Reply-To:  <19980107012541.16234.qmail@hotmail.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Julian,

 

I apologize, you have lived beyond your years.  I live in a

city of 8,000, in Wisconsin, not far from Sinclair Lewis'

Main Street, in Minnesota.  The small town bitterness that

passes for public opinion here, is often impossible to bear.

I've risen above it by understanding, and learning to predict

in which direction local opinion will  move.  As the owner-

manager of the local cable Television system, I've had to dodge

a lot of bullets in my time.  So I've grown philosophical about

it.  One good thing (that is also a bad thing) about the bitterness,

is that it is PERSONAL.  Part of the big city problem is that it

is IMPERSONAL. It hurts worse when it is personal, but its more

real, as are the people you deal with.

 

One last question, what's the name of your city and how big is

it?

 

Mike Rice

 

 

At 05:25 PM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:

> to the person who spoke to me about exactly caused me to end up "beyond

>my years"

> i have lived basically homeless for 4 years, and am only 18, i have

>lived with two teachers, a lover, three wiccan friends, in a half-way

>house, and anywhere else you can imagine, of done abit of one-man

>hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to learn about yourself and

>think...

> until recently, i never had many friens, and i liked it that way, i

>just read a few books a week, staying up to see the sun-rise, and then

>go to school....

> also, i am bisexual, and open about it...

> that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i

>have been geaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened

>numerous times..

> i may be generalizing when i say that my town has a strong lack of

>intelligence, but that is generally all i have seen...

> the wise and strong friends i have made here, have gottenout...all but

>me...i have to suffer one more year here, i even dropped out of

>highschool for three weeks, something i had always said i would never

>do.

> i have "lived" more than many people my age...

> but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have

>someone recieved  reputation as the

>"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-take-me-home-to-mommy-guy"

> and have nearly built a following of a sort, i practically give

>lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen, wondering my

>feelings on certain subjects...it can get nerve racking, but i'm a

>little giddy at all the attention i suppose...

> anyway...

>i have lived a "hard-knock-life"...i am well aware that a lot of people

>have had it worse, but one of the reasons i joined this list is to learn

>more about this interesting and wonderful culture, i suppose i could not

>call myself a "beat"....but who could at first?...

> i hope i answered the questions that were posed to me...

> -julian

> 

>______________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:58:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Christopher Johnson McCandless, aka alexander supertramp

In-Reply-To:  <19980106233250.17913.qmail@hotmail.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Christopher Johnson  McCandless (aka Alexander Supertramp). From

Washington, DC. Son of a NASA scientist, graduated from Emory University

May of 1990 where he had distinguished himself as a history and

anthropology major carrying a 3.72 GPA. He declined membership on Phi Beta

Kappa. His college education had been paid for with a $40,000 bequest that

had been left him by a friend of the family. He had $24,000 left when he

finished college. He donated it to OXFAM. The day after graduation,

Mother's Day. He told his family he was going to disappear for a while and

they never saw him again.

 

His jouney into the "wilderness" began in Atlanta and ended 25 East of

Healy, Alaska in an abandoned bus on what is called the Stampede Trail.

 

"Into the Wild" weaves a haunting story of his last two years. The mistakes

McCandless made caused his death. They were mistakes that are painful to

read about. Excellent book.

 

INTO THE WILD by Jon Krakaur, Villard, NY 1996 ISBN 0-679-42850-X. Book

beautifuly designed by Deborah Kerner.

 

j grant

 

 

>-Greg

> 

>ps. In response to the question about who Alexander Supertramp was I

>dn't feel I really can say.

>A few brief facts: he (I think)graduated from college  a wealthy young

>man. He had $25000 in his checking account which he donated to charity.

>His parents called his phone number at school after not hearing anything

>out of him for a few weeks and discovered he hadn't been there for quite

>a while.

>They heard nothing of him for two years until his body was found by an

>abandoned trailer in the middle of the Alaskan bush.

>The author essentially tracked down where Supertramp (the name he took

>after leaving school) had been those two years and discovered he had

>affected a lot of people in a lot of ways.

>That's all I really want to get into, a remarkable true story.

> 

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:39:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: julian

In-Reply-To:  <ba6d37db.34b31ff3@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

i've heard some say

>that even within the beat movement, the word "beat" itself was detested by

>some.....perhaps.......but i am limited in my knowledge, not having read much

>and been there myself

> 

>brian

 

 

 

In the history channel's interview (David Halberstam's The Fifties) and in

a long extract on this list, I read

an explanation of why the truly Beat, detested the Press' interpretation of

the term "Beat."  Ginsberg said the word Beat meant you were part of the

real beat, i.e., rhythm, of  authentic America.  The Press suggested Beat

meant beat up,

disgruntled, raffish, offbeat, bohemian, even sinister.  Since those guys

hanging around Columbia University in the 40s were totally in charge of what

Beat really means, they had to take umbrage at the Press interpretation.  Then

Chronicle columnist Herb Caen comes along in 1957 when both Howl and On The

Road are exploding, and lifts the "nik" off the then brand-new Russian

Sputnik, appends the suffix to Beat, and presto, we have a new creation:

"The Beatnik." Some of the

bad films, pulp paperbacks, and Television impressions of the Beatniks, seem

laughable today, but those impressions created the backlash that knocked the

Beat movement on its can, by 1960. By the early 60s, the only mainstream

memory

of the Beat movement, was represented by Maynard Krebs, the goateed fool who

played foil to Dobie Gillis on The Loves of Dobie Gillis TV show.

 

The Press and establishment wanted desperately to snuff the voice

of the Beats.  They succeeded, at first, but that authentic beat and rhythm

surfaced again in the mid-60s, and sparked a cultural revolution that is

still with us.  That is why Allan Ginberg's obituary started on page

1 of the New York Times, and why George Will's, will not start there.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:48:38 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: julian

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

you asked who i was, i'm from michigan also, and after reading yr post about

you, it sounds like we'd have alot in common. so i tried to write you a

private email but my mail was sent back saying i couldn't write to you, umm

how can i?, i think the story of me isn't as interesting as kerouac to some

people on this list, god knows why :)  so i decided not to post it.   sorry

have a nice night and a happy halloween

 

 

 

          chad

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:48:17 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> >

> >Mike Rice

> >

> thank you mike for pointing that out to me, i hadn't realized that it

> could be taken that way....

> anouncement:

> I AM NOT SOME SEX FIEND OR SOMETHING...I AM JUST LOOKING TO MEET PEOPLE,

> HONESTLY, I AM JUST A "STARRY-EYED" KID OUT TO SEE THE WORLD....

> 

> *g*

> 

> i hope that cleared everything up...

> 

isn't is sad how people these days always see the negative first in

things others say or do; how we don't trust each other anymore?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:44:07 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>

Subject:      Re: julian

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>  i hope i answered the questions that were posed to me...

>  -julian

> 

> ______________________________________________________

i admire you. that's all i want to say. and why not call yourself beat?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:00:35 MST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Lavin <jimlavin@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Alexander Supertramp

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I have belonged to the list for a while, but never have added anything,

as I lack the  Beat knowledge base.  I wanted to point out something

that people may have missed in their observations of Chris McCandless.

He died of starvation, due mainly to eating the seed pods of a plant

that was listed as edible in his guide book.  This inhibited the

production of an enzyme necessary for the break down and utilization of

food.  It wasn't so much that Chris didn't know the woods, he was in

such a depleted state that he simply died with several days.  Other such

claims have ben made in attempts to prove his lack of knowledge.  He

describes killing a moose in his journal.  The hunters who accompanied

Jon Krakauer to the site pointed out the fact that he must have been a

fool to mistake a caribou for a moose.  In fact the veteran Alaskan

hunters had mistaken the remains for a caribou, closer examination

proved the bones to be from a moose. It is my opinion that Chris

McCandless set out with the purest of intentions, making strong effort

to live by his beliefs.  He was an accomplished outdoors person who

happened to overestimate his own abilities.  That wasn't what was

ultimately responsible for his death.  Instead a string of bad luck

cause his demise.

                        Peace, Jimi

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:00:46 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>

Subject:      Re: hiking

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> 

> how nice,  i would be interested in your itinery ideas.  If you came

> through kansas, i would love to meet you.  I hitched hiked a lot for

> years, in us, mexico, and canada,  i wos warned most about mexico but

> had the evilest time in kansas city. and outside omaha.  I loved hitch

> hiking and loved the geography the best.  I also rode a lot of buses and

> found it more people oriented somehow than hitching.  but hitching let

> me bond with geography more.

> so where do you think you want to go?

> patricia

 

i have learnt that there is beauty everywhere you go; as long as you

travel; as long as you are not in one place.

 

of course, as every typical tourist, i want to see the grand canyon, as

i have managed to miss it in all my visits to the US. i want to go

through arizona, new mexico, the desert...everywhere...

 

and i would love to visit you along the way. after all, much of the

traveling is about people you meet.

 

what was it about kansas city?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 04:46:24 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      on the road again

MIME-Version: 1.0

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waking up with sinus headache

just a bit

kinda fuzzy feeling in my brain

gotta pack my things

in a flash and hit the highway

heading west past Topeka and

Fort Riley

to the jewell of the Plains

Salina

...

listening to Ken Kesey singing

Belle Starr and Jesse James

on the ride.

life i love is making it with my muse

i cain't wait ta get out there

on the horse again....

 

david rhaesa

leaving the Beat-Hotel

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:48:55 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: on the road again

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> waking up with sinus headache

> just a bit

> kinda fuzzy feeling in my brain

> gotta pack my things

> in a flash and hit the highway

> heading west past Topeka and

> Fort Riley

> to the jewell of the Plains

> Salina

> ...

> listening to Ken Kesey singing

> Belle Starr and Jesse James

> on the ride.

> life i love is making it with my muse

> i cain't wait ta get out there

> on the horse again....

> 

> david rhaesa

> leaving the Beat-Hotel

 

hit the road jack

and don't come back

no more no more no more no more

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:27:33 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      When trees are outlawed...

 

Was Sony Bono beat?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:40:36 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Johan Gotthardt Olsen <johan@DARWIN.KI.KU.DK>

Subject:      photo wanted

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I know of a photograph of Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady standing

together, Cassady to the left, head kinked in a funny way, Kerouac to

the right, serene (ironic, impatient?). I saw it used as a 'On The

Road' cover, can't remember the publishing co. but... I'd like to have

the picture so if somebody out there can help, I'd very much

appreciate it. I think the picture was taken by Cassady's wife?

 

It's cold, grey, windy, wet, hopeless here in Denmark. Somebody do

something, I am losing it!

 

Johan

 

johan@xray.ki.ku.dk

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:15:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: your mail

In-Reply-To:  <19980107013441.17458.qmail@hotmail.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Hopefully, I'll be taking off for Prague in a couple of years and then,

I'll be able to hit the road in Europe for a little while, anyway.

 

 

On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:

 

>  nancy, if that's the way you feel, ok, i can understand that...

>  but...in this life, you only live for a limited amount of years, and

> this may be something you want to try when you are young...if you dream

> of it...

>  with women, it isn't all that safe by yourself, if i were a woman i

> probably wouldn't do it alone...

> but as i said, i want to go with the "buddy" system...

>  anyway, its up to you....

>  but nothing is going to happen to anyone i travel with i simply

> wouldn't let it happen, i carry pepperspray at all times with me now,

> and i would suggest no less for you...

>  -julian

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:19:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: julian

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.16.19980107004249.19df472e@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I beg to differ on one point, the big city is not always impersonal. NYC

is more personal to me than the suburb where I grew up, in upstate NY.

 

 

On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, mike rice wrote:

 

> Julian,

> 

> I apologize, you have lived beyond your years.  I live in a

> city of 8,000, in Wisconsin, not far from Sinclair Lewis'

> Main Street, in Minnesota.  The small town bitterness that

> passes for public opinion here, is often impossible to bear.

> I've risen above it by understanding, and learning to predict

> in which direction local opinion will  move.  As the owner-

> manager of the local cable Television system, I've had to dodge

> a lot of bullets in my time.  So I've grown philosophical about

> it.  One good thing (that is also a bad thing) about the bitterness,

> is that it is PERSONAL.  Part of the big city problem is that it

> is IMPERSONAL. It hurts worse when it is personal, but its more

> real, as are the people you deal with.

> 

> One last question, what's the name of your city and how big is

> it?

> 

> Mike Rice

> 

> 

> At 05:25 PM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:

> > to the person who spoke to me about exactly caused me to end up "beyond

> >my years"

> > i have lived basically homeless for 4 years, and am only 18, i have

> >lived with two teachers, a lover, three wiccan friends, in a half-way

> >house, and anywhere else you can imagine, of done abit of one-man

> >hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to learn about yourself and

> >think...

> > until recently, i never had many friens, and i liked it that way, i

> >just read a few books a week, staying up to see the sun-rise, and then

> >go to school....

> > also, i am bisexual, and open about it...

> > that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i

> >have been geaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened

> >numerous times..

> > i may be generalizing when i say that my town has a strong lack of

> >intelligence, but that is generally all i have seen...

> > the wise and strong friends i have made here, have gottenout...all but

> >me...i have to suffer one more year here, i even dropped out of

> >highschool for three weeks, something i had always said i would never

> >do.

> > i have "lived" more than many people my age...

> > but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have

> >someone recieved  reputation as the

> >"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-take-me-home-to-mommy-guy"

> > and have nearly built a following of a sort, i practically give

> >lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen, wondering my

> >feelings on certain subjects...it can get nerve racking, but i'm a

> >little giddy at all the attention i suppose...

> > anyway...

> >i have lived a "hard-knock-life"...i am well aware that a lot of people

> >have had it worse, but one of the reasons i joined this list is to learn

> >more about this interesting and wonderful culture, i suppose i could not

> >call myself a "beat"....but who could at first?...

> > i hope i answered the questions that were posed to me...

> > -julian

> >

> >______________________________________________________

> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> >

> >

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:38:29 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: julian

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan  6 22:27:18 1998

>Received: from listserv (128.228.100.10) by listserv.cuny.edu (LSMTP

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>Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:25:54 EST

>Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From:         Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

>Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

>Subject:      Re: julian

>To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>In a message dated 98-01-06 20:36:01 EST, you write:

> 

>i have lived basically homeless for 4 years,

>~~~personal choice or unavoidable situation?

>(unavoidable, when you cease to entertain people, they cease to want

you around)

>done a bit of one-man hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to

learn

>about yourself and think...

>~~~yeah, so does being an introvert in high school with a

predeliction(sp?)

>for not enjoying the company of too many people

>(i was that for years too)

>i just read a few books a week

>~~~who be your favorite authors?

>(Vonnegut, Rand, Chaucer, Plato(all the Greeks really), Adams, Eddings,

and Salinger)

>also, i am bisexual, and open about it...

>~~~you put up with a lot of shit concerning prejudice?

>(yes, a lot)

>that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i

have

>been beaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened

numerous

>times..

>~~~personal choice or unavoidable

>(unavoidable, this town has so very many prejudices)

>i even dropped out of highschool for three weeks, something i had

always said

>i would never do.

>~~~why'd you do it?

>(i had no place to live at all, and needed a 40 hour a week job, and

then i couldn't juggle school and living on my own....so i had to let

school go, its not something i'm proud of)

>  i have "lived" more than many people my age...

>~~~perhaps this may be true for america

> 

>but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have

someone

>recieved  reputation as the

"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-

>take-me-home-to-mommy-guy" and have nearly built a following of a sort,

i

>practically give lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to

listen,

>wondering my feelings on certain subjects...

>~~~what makes this a happy ending for you?

>(respect. that simple, i have only been assualted once since coming

back, and now he has absolutely no friends because of it, for being

bullied for years, it feels good to be "safe")

>i suppose i could not call myself a "beat"....but who could at

first?...

>~~~of course, this depends on who you are talking to......i've heard

some say

>that even within the beat movement, the word "beat" itself was detested

by

>some.....perhaps.......but i am limited in my knowledge, not having

read much

>and been there myself

> 

>brian

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

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=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:41:46 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: julian

Content-Type: text/plain

 

actually, a place called Jeddo, a country off-shoot of port huron...

michigan, with a population in jeddo of about 250

 

>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan  6 22:47:40 1998

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<3.0.5.16.19980107004249.19df472e@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

>Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:47:48 -0500

>Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

>Subject:      Re: julian

>To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>In-Reply-To:  <19980107012541.16234.qmail@hotmail.com>

> 

>Julian,

> 

>I apologize, you have lived beyond your years.  I live in a

>city of 8,000, in Wisconsin, not far from Sinclair Lewis'

>Main Street, in Minnesota.  The small town bitterness that

>passes for public opinion here, is often impossible to bear.

>I've risen above it by understanding, and learning to predict

>in which direction local opinion will  move.  As the owner-

>manager of the local cable Television system, I've had to dodge

>a lot of bullets in my time.  So I've grown philosophical about

>it.  One good thing (that is also a bad thing) about the bitterness,

>is that it is PERSONAL.  Part of the big city problem is that it

>is IMPERSONAL. It hurts worse when it is personal, but its more

>real, as are the people you deal with.

> 

>One last question, what's the name of your city and how big is

>it?

> 

>Mike Rice

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:46:11 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: julian

Content-Type: text/plain

 

 because i'm new to it...

 i don't really understand it as well, as someone who has been with it

awhile would....

 and i wouldn't want to use it refering to myself if some people would

take offence at an "upstart hippy"

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:48:50 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: When trees are outlawed...

Content-Type: text/plain

 

at one time, i think he was...but he was a lot of things...a hippy, and

a republican...

 

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Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:57:57 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      letter par Truly Beat Canucks

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980104221947.49525B-100000@uoft02.utoledo.e du>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Le siecle des intellectuels says:

>                      Cronopio, cronopio?

> 

the DiGiTaL CiTiZen carnet on wired i

couldnt resist to Jaques Derrida... o

r emigrates or johnny halliday or Son

ny Bono or Salvatore (or Sal) the mis

tic name Salvatore Bono (italian emig

rant, at Ellis Islands, or Elvis Isla

nd?) NY or THE BEAT GOES ON 1967, dis

c or Palm Springs there's jack keroua

c or philp marlowe i couldnt resist t

o Jacques Derrida...and the beats go

on...il cammino di ogni speranza is t

he beat goes on sonny... ma piano (pe

r non svegliarti)... jacques derrida.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:38:10 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: When trees are outlawed...

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:27:33 EST from <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

 

Well, he sang "The Beat goes on...on...on...on...on."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:47:02 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: This Land is your land

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:54:41 -0500 from <cake@IONLINE.NET>

 

On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:54:41 -0500 M. Cakebread said:

>At 09:37 PM 1/6/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:

> 

>>So I buy everything with any Ochs on it including

>>the Interviews and the collections with Blind Boy Grunt

>>and am about to head out the door --

> 

>Speaking of Blind Boy Grunt, he was just nominated

>for a couple Grammy's (Album of the Year, Folk Album of

>the Year, and Best Rock Vocal - Male).  At least

>I believe this is what I heard. . .

> 

>Mike

 

Yes, and I'll be really suprised if Dylan doesn't win.  It's a GREAT

album.  The Phil Ochs box set is good too, though there's only about five unrec

orded songs in it.   At $43, it's an expensive purchase for someone who has all

 the albums.  For someone new to Ochs, however, it's a great introduction.  The

re's also a good biographical pamphlet.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:54:10 +0000

Reply-To:     jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs, Wittgenstein

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Has anyone out there read a work by Wittgenstein cover to cover?

 

-John H.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:26:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Dylan Conference at Stanford

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Thought someone in the Bay area might be

interested in checking this out:

 

> stanford, california--

> 'scholars are planning a one-day conference at standford univeristy

>to talk about bob dylan's legacy in american culture.  authors,

>professors and dylan experts will attent the event, which is billed as

>the first of its kind in the u.s.  the legendary folk songwriter is

>scheduled to perform in new york with van morrison on that day and is

>not expected to attend.  among the topics will be an analysis of

>political views in dylan's songs, allen ginsberg's artistic

>involvement with dylan, the musical roots of dylan's songs and a

>comparison to beat novelist jack kerouac and french poet arthur

>rimbaud.'

> --canoe.ca/JanMusic/jan7_dylan.html

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:33:11 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      mail go bouncy list

Comments: cc: nhenness@uwaterloo.ca

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I probably will sell some, but the thang is , i am trying to figure out

what stuff i have. I have contacted a library to donate 5 years

worth of underground papers i collected in the 70's.  My preservation

technique is to randomly pile material in stacks on my

basement floor.  I am cleaning, and sorting, and don't know how to

catalogue.  When Charles Plymell was here, he gave me a good talking to

about the way i kept stuff. So I am sorting, listing.  I also thought I

might try to get the more interesting posters and cards scanned for use

on my crude home page. I just get a little lost with my collections.  I

also contacted a book dealer and will be selling a couple of hundred of

my lesser cook books. But i keep wanting to quit sorting and to go to

the computer to play freecell.  I thought if i posted the partial list

someone would scold or imspire me to keep going until i at least got the

stuff off the floor.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:11:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: letter par Truly Beat Canucks

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19980107145757.006a1104@pop.gpnet.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:57 PM 1/7/98 +0100, you wrote:

>Le siecle des intellectuels says:

>>                      Cronopio, cronopio?

>> 

>the DiGiTaL CiTiZen carnet on wired i

>couldnt resist to Jaques Derrida... o

>r emigrates or johnny halliday or Son

>ny Bono or Salvatore (or Sal) the mis

>tic name Salvatore Bono (italian emig

>rant, at Ellis Islands, or Elvis Isla

>nd?) NY or THE BEAT GOES ON 1967, dis

>c or Palm Springs there's jack keroua

>c or philp marlowe i couldnt resist t

>o Jacques Derrida...and the beats go

>on...il cammino di ogni speranza is t

>he beat goes on sonny... ma piano (pe

>r non svegliarti)... jacques derrida.

> 

> 

this is great, now if we could all communicate

this well, Sonny might have been elected President

by now instead of just mayor and congressman.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:32:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "D. Patrick Hornberger" <"eastwind@erols.com"@EROLS.COM>

Organization: EASTWIND PUBLISHING

Subject:      Re: mail go bouncy list

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> I probably will sell some, but the thang is , i am trying to figure out

> what stuff i have. I have contacted a library to donate 5 years

> worth of underground papers i collected in the 70's.  My preservation

> technique is to randomly pile material in stacks on my

> basement floor.  I am cleaning, and sorting, and don't know how to

> catalogue.  When Charles Plymell was here, he gave me a good talking to

> about the way i kept stuff. So I am sorting, listing.  I also thought I

> might try to get the more interesting posters and cards scanned for use

> on my crude home page. I just get a little lost with my collections.  I

> also contacted a book dealer and will be selling a couple of hundred of

> my lesser cook books. But i keep wanting to quit sorting and to go to

> the computer to play freecell.  I thought if i posted the partial list

> someone would scold or imspire me to keep going until i at least got the

> stuff off the floor.

> patricia

 

 

Cool Collection--

 

I have to say you should continue to collect and not donate--yet... One

never can tell what the value of Beat stuff really is. Market could

totaly bomb--or get better, if the current interest continues. e.g. I 'm

a collector and have seen OTR, 1st editons go from $700.00 to

1,800--same condition at book shows in the Washington,DC area. I dont

think it will ever drop much  for the big three, but none of the

so-called experts put much faith in the minor charcters. And the secure

market is mostly in books, not the ephemeral.

Myself--if you want to sell it -I might be interested in the target

signed by WSB--I'm still working on why he was so fascinated by

handguns, (but never used as a poster boy for the NRA). let me know if

you want to sell it and how much.

 

Patrick

eastwind@erols.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:28:34 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Be There or Be Square (Marie Countryman Reading)

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Those who may have missed previous posts should know that Marie

Countryman of Beat-L fame will be reading from her poetry at

 

Polk Street Beans & Cafe

1733 Polk Street, San Francisco

415-776-9292

 

Show starts at 7pm

 

Be There or Be Square

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:32:07 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Be There Part II

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I should have added that the reading is 7pm THURSDAY, JANUARY 8

 

See you there

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:57:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Alexander Supertramp

In-Reply-To:  <19980107090036.2278.qmail@hotmail.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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James Lavin wrote about Chris McCandless:

> He was an accomplished outdoors person who

>happened to overestimate his own abilities.  That wasn't what was

>ultimately responsible for his death.  Instead a string of bad luck

>cause his demise.

>                        Peace, Jimi

 

 

Jimi,

 

When McCandless became so weak he couldn't forage for food he tried to

return but could not cross a bever pond andthen the river that was running

much higher than it was when he first arrived.

 

Had he not torn up and thrown his maps away he would have seen --marked on

the map--a means to cross. Just six miles away was a steel cable and bucket

that was tied up on his side of the river.

 

A simple rash act. Krakauer speculated that since there was no real

wilderness where he was, he created a "wilderness" by destroying the map

that showed civilization still crowding in on him.

 

No books listed the seed pods (of the potato plant he was eating) as toxic

so it was assumed that he had mistakenly eaten seed pods from the wild

sweet pea which closely resembles the wild potato. Krakauer, after much

thought, decided McCandless would not have made this kind of a mistake and

I agree. Krakauer's research showed that the wild potatoe produces an

alkoloid that concentrates in the seed pods in late summer to discourage

animals from eating the seeds. The alkolid, it was learned, is swainsonine

which is the compound known to veterinarians as the toxic agent in

locoweed. This poison affects a person neurologically and inhibits an

enzyme essential to glycoprotein metabolism. Krakauer points out that

animals that stop eating it can recover, IF they are in robust condition to

begin with. McCandless was not.

 

Old-timers were surprised to learn that he had, indeed, shot a moose, and

not a caribou. Unfortunately he had never read any materail on how to cure

and store the meat. He had the means and the time to slice the meat into

thin strips and cure it using the heat and smoke of a simple campfire.

 

Sad that this gifted, intelligent, articulate, hardworking, very likable

young man, as a result of a couple of rash acts, died while so close to

help. Indications that he was preparing to return to the life he had left

behind two years earlier makes the story even sadder.

 

j grant

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:08:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: When trees are outlawed...

In-Reply-To:  <009BFEC6.2EEE4AA0.13@kenyon.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>Was Sony Bono beat?

 

Of course we can't forget those best selling LPs:

 

Sonny and Cher Sing Woody's Dust Bowl Ditties,

and

Sonny and Cher Love Bobby Dylan

 

 

 

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:13:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: mail go bouncy list

In-Reply-To:  <34B3A037.1D86@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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 I thought if i posted the partial list

>someone would scold or imspire me to keep going until i at least got the

>stuff off the floor.

>patricia

 

Quite a list.

Consider yourself scolded (and hopefuly inspired).

 

j grant

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:09:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page updated!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Yes I have updated it again for the New Year...also, look in the future for

all new pages and links! Thanks for 1997, the year of the founding of The

Kerouac Quarterly!

 

  Guess what Kerouac did 50 years ago today!

  Go to the page and find out.... at:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

                       Bye for now and stay away from ski slopes with trees!

                                               Paul...

> 

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:14:35 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: photo wanted

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i think i have the copy of on the road with that picture. the publisher of

mine is city lights. however, i have also seen a copy out by penguin with the

same or similar picture.

 

aeronwy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:27:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      For Boston-area Beats!

Mime-Version: 1.0

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If you're in the Boston Area tonight, broadcasting from Boston University,

(WBOR  at 90.9 FM) there is an hour-long interview with David Amram and John

Suiter about Jack Kerouac. Check it out if you can! The Kerouac Quarterly

will highlight parts of the interview on the web page in the near future.

 

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

                                    Take care, Paul of TKQ....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:28:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: photo wanted

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Sorry!Forgot to give the time..try around 8:00 PM or 9:00 PM...sorry again.

 

  WBOR 90.9 FM in Boston-area...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:44:25 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Alexander Supertramp

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I really feel that the discussion of alexander supertramp has taken a

turn for the worst.. All that we have talked about is how he screwed up

(or did not screw up) the end of his life.

We should be discussing the incredible amount of life he lived and

people he affected, not the fact that yes.. he is dead.

 

 

What about the 70 year old man in Nevada or something who was living a

happy life of retirement until he met supertramp. At the time,

supertramp was living outside of a commune type situation in the desert.

He left on his trek to Alaska, died.. The 70 year old man is now living

in the desert, near where Supertramp had his tent.

 

That is one of only a few ways in which he impacted a dozen people in

the course of two years.

 

Read the book, understand the incredible things he did and not the

tragic way he died...

 

-Greg

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:25:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Coming soon to TKQ...

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Coming soon, the first of many new additions to the quarterly and web

page...the real time Kerouac Quarterly chat group. Stay tuned for further

info. P.

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:46:40 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Let's get this New Year rolling...

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Ever answered the Proust Questions? Well, here they is:

 

1. What is your most marked characteristic?

2. What do you consider your greatest achievement?

3. When and where were you happiest?

4. What is your greatest regret?

5. What is your idea of perfect happiness?

6. What is your most treasured possession?

7. Where would you like to live?

8. What is your greatest fear?

9. What is the trait you most deplore in yourself?

10. What is the trait you most deplore in others?

11. What do you consider the most overrated virtue?

12. What is your greatest extravagance?

13. What is your favourite journey?

14. What is it that you most dislike?

15. What is the quality you most like in a man?

16. What is the quality you most like in a woman?

17. What do you most value in your friends?

18. If you were to come back as a person or thing, what do you think it would

be?

19. If you could choose what to come back as, what would it be?

20. How would you like to die?

 

BTW, does anyone know if JK ever answered these 20 questions? It seems likely

that he would have. I would love to hear his answers. And in a few days, I'll

post Proust's answers here, if you wish. There are two versions I know of,

answered first when he was 13, and second when he was 20.

 

I hope this generates some interesting results and threads.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:07:11 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Let's get this New Year rolling...

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Homework Already?

 

Do we have any of Marcel's answers from a somewhat riper age than 13 or 20?

 

Not enough mail in your mailbox with the scintillating Alexander Supertramp

thread that has us all so rivited?

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:02:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Let's get this New Year rolling...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:46 PM 1/7/98 EST, you wrote:

>Ever answered the Proust Questions? Well, here they is:

> 

>1. What is your most marked characteristic?

Perseverance...

>2. What do you consider your greatest achievement?

To date...the Kerouac Quarterly

>3. When and where were you happiest?

the womb

>4. What is your greatest regret?

Not living after my death in which I will know my greatest regret

>5. What is your idea of perfect happiness?

You will never attain this, even the most peaked form of happiness is marred

by misery.

>6. What is your most treasured possession?

The Complete Beethoven edition

>7. Where would you like to live?

In New England where I'm standing , about 200 years ago.

>8. What is your greatest fear?

I'm afraid I don't know.

>9. What is the trait you most deplore in yourself?

That which makes me human, weakness.

>10. What is the trait you most deplore in others?

Their tendencies to be humans.

>11. What do you consider the most overrated virtue?

Fidelity, it mars the way to follow the advice of your spirit.

>12. What is your greatest extravagance?

U Know

>13. What is your favourite journey?

Its not life...

>14. What is it that you most dislike?

It's not life...

>15. What is the quality you most like in a man?

He's a dumb ape.

>16. What is the quality you most like in a woman?

She's a loving ape.

>17. What do you most value in your friends?

Friendship.

>18. If you were to come back as a person or thing, what do you think it would

>be?

Van Gogh's severed earlobe.

>19. If you could choose what to come back as, what would it be?

The right hand of Vermeer of Delft as he paints the Lacemaker....

>20. How would you like to die?

After life...

> 

>BTW, does anyone know if JK ever answered these 20 questions? It seems likely

>that he would have. I would love to hear his answers. And in a few days, I'll

>post Proust's answers here, if you wish. There are two versions I know of,

>answered first when he was 13, and second when he was 20.

> 

>I hope this generates some interesting results and threads.

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:38:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: alexander supertramp

 

>In a message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:

> 

><< who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>

> 

>if your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously doubt yours

>is, what awaits is death.

> 

>have you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?

> 

> 

>brian

 

No, but now i'm intrigued....

 

Diane.

 

--

"This is Beat.  Live your lives out?  Naw, _love_ your lives out!"

                                                        --Jack Kerouac

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:28:01 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs, Wittgenstein

In-Reply-To:  <34B342B2.330D@tezcat.com>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:

 

> Has anyone out there read a work by Wittgenstein cover to cover?

 

I have, but I'm not sure it really matters all that much with

Wittgenstein. One must not have too much faith in cardboard.

 

(& BTW, there's still a lot of W's writings not yet published....yet

another "estate" controversy)

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:39:43 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein?

In-Reply-To:  <199801052159.QAA01136@ionline.net>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, M. Cakebread wrote:

 

> Can anyone briefly tell me if the references mentioned

> are influenced by Wittgenstein's _Tractatus_, or

>  _Philosophical Investigations_?  Just curious.

 

In all my reading of Burroughs, I've never run across anything that

made me think, "Gee, that sounds just like Wittgenstein." So apart

from the explicit reference in the intro to Naked Lunch, I don't think

Burroughs ever had much to say about W.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:44:09 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Some American Haikus

Mime-Version: 1.0

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I put up some news sounds at Kerouac Speaks

 

  http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html

 

They are from the Blues and Haikus CD, from the first track called American

Haikus.

 

If you don't have the CD's you can listen to snippets from it at this site

and see (or hear rather) what you are missing.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:53:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      The Beat Goes On

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Boys keep chasing girls to get a kiss

 

And the beat goes on

 

Men keep marching off to war

 

And the beat goes on.

 

Was Sonny Bono beat?

 

The Charleston was once the rage uh huh?

 

And the Beat goes on.

 

No, but the Vanilla Fudge were.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:01:36 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Howl

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> Howl is one of the greatest poems of the 20th Century.  The other one

> that I like as much is The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock.  But, we

> don't want to go down that road again, do we.

 

It might be a good time to head along those hollers now that it is a new

year.  Is it true that Alfred in the Batman comics was named after J.

Alfred?

> 

> Howl was a poem that bubbles over with its positive energy.  The poet

> has at last discovered himself and in an excited frenzy takes us through

> the entire range of his world, experience, hopes dreams and visions.

 

i don't think it is so frenzied at all.  perhaps for the time.

 

 It

> describes too well the Amerika I grew up in and continue to live in.

 

My Americka changes every day -- at least.

> 

> Howl awakened in me the realization that poetry is alive and well and

> serves a purpose to me.

 

The Liveliness of Howl is its testament in my way of thinking.  It is

the Celebration of Life through thick and thin, blood and guts and

brains in my teeth, dead burnt bodies (oops that was Alice's Restaraunt)

 

> Howl, a great great great poem.  And a perfect name.

 

I think it could be named "HOOT!" <big grin>

 

> 

> Peace,

> 

> --

> 

> Peace,

> 

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

david rhaesa

walden farm, Kansas

 

p.s. can someone backchannel me re-subscribe functions pretty please.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:34:35 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: the last time....

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Diane De Rooy wrote:

> 

> In a message dated 97-12-04 10:04:58 EST, you write:

> 

> << >

>  > i heard/read somewhere that FFCoppola has the rights to 'on the road' -

>  > anyone know more?

>  > --

>   >>

> 

> This will get you started:

>  <A HREF=" http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ ">Literary Kicks</A>

> http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

>  <A HREF="http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Films/BeatFilmList.html">The Beats In

>  Film</A>

> http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Films/BeatFilmList.html

>  <A HREF="http://www.c3f.com/holywood/ontheroa.html">Hollywood's Coming: On Th

> e Road</A>

> http://www.c3f.com/holywood/ontheroa.html

> 

> This project has been in the shadows for decades, and there is a lot of

> information out there on the internet. We've also discussed it to death on

> the list here, passionately and then annoyingly... you can get the letters on

> this subject from the Beat-L archive. Maybe then we won't get sucked back

> into discussing it endlessly...

 

Endlessly is a long long time.  I'm thinking maybe the old man in the

back of the truck should be Dennis Hopper.  Whaddayall think?  Jack

Nicholson for the Columbia football coach.

 

david rhaesa

solomon, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:04:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Stone on Kerouac

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

> I had a backchannell that kids me about having my tongue tied by a tongue

> lashing from Big Daddy Bill that makes very funny references to war happy

> clansmen in cliques.

> 

> Truth is that I considered coming to the defense of my thoughts on the

> subject of authentication of self vs concern about our cultures and their

> dreams. I decided to leave it alone after the subject moved on to redemption

> of the soul, or has anyone suggested redemption of the american dream as

> well?

 

i've been suggesting this in one way or another all of my adult life

(though admittedly i'm still a whippersnapper)

>