=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:58:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

In-Reply-To:  <msg1251041.thr-3ff78936.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

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>>Permission to use Jack Kerouac in that GAP ad came from John Sampas, the

>>executor of the Keroauc Estate.

 

I could be wrong. Was reminded of the CA laws about rights to use images

that Nicosia posted some time ago. Sampas could have been by-passed by Jan

Kerouac.

 

Interesting how different I feel about the ads when thinking that his

daughter Jan may sold the rights rather than Sampas.

 

j grant

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:53:45 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      when god twirled the world into existence...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>

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Sara Straw  says:

>Assuming guilt from the past is a christian theme, and I am an atheist.

>sara

> 

"The ways of the Lord lead to liberty" sayeth St. Paul...

        yet a man need liberty, not God, to be able to

        follow the ways of God" --- Gregory Corso

 

from ''ELEGIAC FEELINGS AMERICAN

        for the memory of John Kerouac''

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:43:13 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>

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At 22.16 19/11/97 -0500, Alex Howard wrote:

>Progressive does not necessarily denote progress.  And as we all know,

>progress does not necessarily mean good.  The guilt and responsibilty of

>the deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki is on the head of every American.

>The guilt and responsibility of everything that has occured out of those

>terrible points belongs with every citizen of a country that calls itself

>any sort of leader or player in the global cultural landscape.  They

>cannot be forgotten.  Just as anyone who ignores suffering and injustice

>because it happens somewhere else in the world carries with them a

>responsibility  for and to the victims of the Holocaust.

> 

>------------------

>Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

>kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

> 

 

Alex,

i think people in XX century goes crazy in a lot of countries,

first of all in italy, the place where fascism raise the flag

and making the atomic bomb was a lot of europeans.

 

Gregory Corso thinking

"You Bomb Toy of universe... I cannot hate you... all

man hates you they'd rather die by car-crash".

 

Gregory Corso is a pacifist and he wrote the poem "Bomb"

after the Trafalgar Square Meeting (London 1958).

 

The poet was impressed by the  people blinded with hatred

against the Bomb, he wrote the poem in Paris.

Allen Ginsberg cutted out the typewritten poem and

sticked them shaping as a mushroom cloud.

 

un caro saluto da

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:32:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

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>>>How can an atheist be spiritual?  I understand how spirit and the

>>>supreme being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual

>>>do.  Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line

>>>with atheism.

>> 

>>     because all atheism states is the absence of a belief in a

>>godhead, period.  now, atheism is as much a trap as any other ism but i

>>won't get into that.

> 

>No. It would also disclude polytheism as well.

> 

>You are saying an animist can be atheist.  I don't agree at all in that one

>cannot differentiate irrational beliefs in spirits or Gods.  All these

>beliefs fall under an atheistic umbrella that holds the physical world is

>all there is.

 

        um, no.  you're misreading what was said.  "godhead" is a term

referring to divinity.  that can include multiple gods.

 

KEN

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:03:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>

Subject:      WSB

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"I am not one of those weak-spirited, sappy Americans who want to be liked

 by all the people around them. I don't care if people hate my guts, I assume

 most of them do. The important question is: 'What are they in a position to

 do about it?'"    -- William S. Burroughs

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:47:32 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

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Interesting how different I feel about the ads when thinking that his

>daughter Jan may sold the rights rather than Sampas.

> 

>j grant

>.-

Congratulations Joe! I really appreciate to hear this coming from you! It

helps us all to be more skeptical of  the conclusions advocated with

vehemence by opponnents in a heated controversy.

 

You didn't have to tell us that. But you did. That's helping us to sort

things out about the Estate issues as well. Thanks

 

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:01:48 -0500

Reply-To:     mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mongo BearWolf <mongo.bearwolf@DARTMOUTH.EDU>

Organization: Dartmouth College

Subject:      Student wishing help with research project

Comments: cc: "Sahra A. Carey" <s23blue@lightspeed.net>

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Hi Folks...

 

I'm forwarding this note from a correspondent.  Please reply directly to

Sahra (s23blue@lightspeed.net), not to me!  {:{)}

 

Thanks!

 

--Mongo

 

--------------------------------------------------------

                     ...visit...

 

                   ALLEN GINSBERG:

              Shadow Changes into Bone

 

       The Clearinghouse for all things Ginsberg!

 

                 http://www.ginzy.com

--------------------------------------------------------

 

 

----- FORWARDED MESSAGE FOLLOWS ------------

 

> Hey!  I am a student doing a major research

> project on the beats in San Francisco as

> part of the national history day competition.

> Ok, I am a little bit of a procrastinator

> and I need eight interviews from people about

> this subject.  I have four completed,

> some secondary sources and some primary

> sources of information.  I could really use

> some help.  I don't exactly know who you

> are at this moment because I just got to

> your site but I would appreciate it if you

> have any e-mail addresses of people I could

> interview for this over the net or perhaps

> you could answer some questions through

> your expert knowledge.  I only have a few:

> 

> 1)What was the primary appeal of SF for

> many beat writers and artists?

> 

> 2)What atmosphere was created there due

> to the influx of the beat culture?

> 

> 3)What, if any, major ideas came out of

> the large beat community in relation to their

> impact on today's society.

> 

> 4)From an economic stadnpoint, what

> situation were the new "migrants" in

> financially and what changes occured

> within the city during the time.

> 

> I understand if you can't answer these

> questions but any sort of blabbering will help

> me and I need a few more interviews even

> though the ones I already go are really

> strong.  Maybe you could pass this along to

> others as well and have them contact me:

> 

> s23blue@lightspeed.net

> 

> Sahra Carey

> Bakersfield, CA

> 

> Thanks for any of your help!

> 

> -sahra

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:10:37 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: when god twirled the world into existence...

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Was your point that there is no point?

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:12:31 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Thank you, Ken.

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:13:57 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: WSB

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Ken, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, truth feels good, like a hot tub.

s.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:19:22 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

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You have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.

I use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the

primary source of the meanings of words for the general populace.

s.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:25:01 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

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Voilla!

Its the cover not the book, it's what you look like, not what you are,

it's personality, not character.

Was it ever any different?

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:42:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac's Reading

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 While doing my research, I ran across this notebook entry of Kerouac's from

September 1951. This explains more of how Kerouac viewed himself as a writer.

He writes: "I'm going to be a Wolfean Proust, a Whitmanesque Dostoevsky, a

Melvillean Celine, a Faulknerian Genet - in fact a Kerouassadian Ginsbergian

Shakespeare."

  An irony is, that Ginsberg influenced Kerouac in his writing while

Ginsberg himself, at a round-table discussion at the Old Worthen in Lowell,

MA. on October 3rd, 1992, explained that he was very much an imitator of

Kerouac.

 

On another vein, but the same thread:

 

  A precise notation of Kerouac about Twain's story,  "Mysterious Stranger"

can in fact be connected to his sketches for Doctor Sax. He quotes in his

notebook, "Life is a dream...you are but a vagrant thought wandering

forlornly in shoreless eternities." A careful reading of Twain's story can

draw many parallels to Kerouac and his ideas for Doctor Sax. This

observation from February 1950 leads Kerouac to write, "Man haunts the

earth. Man is on a ledge noising his life." The idea that we are amidst

eternity, that it lives on within and without us parallels Mysterious

Stranger with K's ideas for early plans of On the Road and Doctor Sax.

 

  That's all for now! Don't forget to buy the first volume of Selected

Letters in hardcover from us!$10.00! They are brand new and will also come

with a free copy of The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. I, No. 2.

 

   See The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page!

    http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:50:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac GAP ad

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If anyone hasn't seen this ad and would like to, I have it on my site at

http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/images/kerouac/kerouac-gap.gif.  This

is what happens when you code the file for one name and forget to actually

change the name of the file afterwards.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:57:12 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac GAP ad

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Alex Howard wrote:

> 

> If anyone hasn't seen this ad and would like to, I have it on my site at

> http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/images/kerouac/kerouac-gap.gif.  This

> is what happens when you code the file for one name and forget to actually

> change the name of the file afterwards.

> 

> ------------------

> Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

> kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

> http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

 

Thanks Alex.  It was one of those ads where i would never have

remembered who was doing the advertising.  That happens to me all the

time.  I thought the image of Jack was pretty good.  Are there images of

the other nasty, naughty advertisements available out there anywhere?

After seeing this ad i can see how it could pull people into wondering

about Kerouac more than wandering into some store in some mall somewhere

in someplace sometime.  But what do i know about such important things

as Gap Ads and everything Jack stood for anyway -- afterall my

subconscious is still hungup on Nagasaki!!!! <still laughing at my

incompetent typing last night>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:38:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac GAP ad

In-Reply-To:  <3474CE58.5C3D@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> time.  I thought the image of Jack was pretty good.  Are there images of

> the other nasty, naughty advertisements available out there anywhere?

 

That's the only one I've seen though I can't remember where I got it.  If

The GAP has a site, they probably have them all unless they've been sued

by now.  Think its interesting that's the same picture as on the cover of

Joyce Johnson's _Minor Characters_.  Except in this one she's been

airbrushed out.  At the big Beat Conference in NY a few years ago, she

said that that was pretty metaphorical of the place of women in the group:

there when necessary, airbrushed out when not.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:03:51 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady ad.......formerly re:kerouac

              ads

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> 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we

could somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see?  I think

the theme music, led zep, would be perfect!

 

 

 

cathy

 

 

 

> Subject:

>         Re: Kerouac ads

>   Date:

>         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:24:56 -0800

>   From:

>         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

> 

> 

> >At 03:19 AM 11/20/97 UT, you wrote:

> >>----------

> >>From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Eric Lytle

> >>Sent:   Wednesday, November 19, 1997 12:00 PM

> >>To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> >>Subject:        Re: Kerouac ads

> >>

> >

> >>I feel that you bring up a very good point.  But, I think the line in the

 song

> >>was kind of a tribute.  Whereas the feeling I get from the GAP ad is

> >>different.  Their intent was not to make an artistic statement, or celebrate

> >>Kerouac's life and work.  It was a coldcalculated attempt to hook certain

> >>segments of the public into buying their clothes.  Their motivation was

 purely

> >>and simply money.  They don't care that this contradicts everything Jack

> >>believed in. They reduce his memory to a marketing strategy. I don't know,

> >>maybe it will generate interest.  In fact it probably will.  But interest in

> >>what?  Kerouac's art, or his status as "Beat King."

> >>Sorry . . .I'm venting.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >So here's the antidote ad, sneaked on the air by guerilla video

> >men tampering with big media's satellite feeds:

> >

> >Both Kerouac  and Neal Cassady, clad in khakis for the Gap are

> >boosting a '49 mercury from a parking lot in Kansas city circa

> >1951.  Sal and Dean are pushing the car down a slight incline.

> >Dean dives in the driver's side to  hot wire it,

> >Sal silently steer-pushes the coupe from the lot.  The motor

> >coughs to life, the two beats flash smiles; Success! they

> >roar away. In the  fading dual exhaust smoke, an announcer

> >purrs:  "The Gap..., the difference between what's really

> >true and what they're trying to put over on us this time..!"

> >

> >(Camera dollies up and out leaving THE GAP label full-screen)

> >

> >Mike Rice

> 

> Re-read On the Road and Sal's feelings about Dean's Car stealing when they

> were together and you might re-evaluate who is trying to "put one over over

> time"

> 

> 

> Personally I couldn't care less about the gap or these gap ads.  Who cares.

> We don't own Jack kerouac anyhow so what is it to us.

> 

> I think the ads were nice because it was a good picture.  If someone wanted

> a picture of kerouac they could have trimmed off the Gap part.

> 

> I also think kerouac would have done ads if he were alive.  Burroughs did

> shoe ads.  Ginsberg did the Khaki ads and he was alive.

> 

> Nothing wrong with pants.

> 

> And Mike, I must add, nice mise en scene.  Led Zeppellin's when the levy

> breaks should be the background muzak for this commercial.  It will be for

> a Mercedes Benz.  Kerouac and cassady had such great taste that they wanted

> to steal a Mercedres.

> 

> gesundheit.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:44:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

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saras@sisna.com,.Internet writes:

>You have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.

>I use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the

>primary source of the meanings of words for the general populace.

 

     thank you! i didn't want to say it for fear of a stupid discussion

about semantics, but semantics is one of the most important aspects of

language, otherwise no one knows what anyone else is talking about.  it

doesn't matter what the common conception is, it can be wrong, atheism

is specifically godhead relative, mono or poly, what this common view

is that has been described is not atheistic but aspiritual.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:04:21 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> 

> saras@sisna.com,.Internet writes:

> >You have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.

> >I use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the

> >primary source of the meanings of words for the general populace.

> 

>      thank you! i didn't want to say it for fear of a stupid discussion

> about semantics, but semantics is one of the most important aspects of

> language, otherwise no one knows what anyone else is talking about.  it

> doesn't matter what the common conception is, it can be wrong, atheism

> is specifically godhead relative, mono or poly, what this common view

> is that has been described is not atheistic but aspiritual.

 

thank god someone has said this, the atheism i believe in is a good kind

spiritual atheism.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:07:08 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

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thankyou for your thankyou.

My big ole' dictionary sits right here beside me, cause, frankly,

communication is important to me, and I like to have *resources*...

People who make up their own definitions are either fools or geniuses,

and I am neither.

I USED to think I was pretty smart, until I got on the internet and

found out, NOPE, I just live in an area filled with double digit IQers.

Oh well.

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:14:42 -0600

Reply-To:     vorys@concentric.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap ad.

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Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched? The Neon

appears to imply GAP rather than BAR. In which case the idea of Kerouac

hanging out at a clothing store becomes ridiculous.IMHO

  Overall if the ad gets someone to read Kerouac who ordinarily

wouldn't, I fail to see the harm. For those who are offended ... don't

but the product.

  I vaguely remember Kerouac writing something about Arrow shirts. Am I

off on this or does someone else know of the source?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:41:58 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

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Sara Straw wrote:

> 

> thankyou for your thankyou.

> My big ole' dictionary sits right here beside me, cause, frankly,

> communication is important to me, and I like to have *resources*...

> People who make up their own definitions are either fools or geniuses,

> and I am neither.

> I USED to think I was pretty smart, until I got on the internet and

> found out, NOPE, I just live in an area filled with double digit IQers.

> Oh well.

> s

 

I collect dictionaries -- but i've been known to make up my own

definitions and even make up new words for fun and symbolic frolicking.

 

A fine line and balance of not letting my dictionaries own my language

and yet not flashing so far from the denotation (a real lie of a word)

that communicating is impossible.

 

Just bought every Xmas tape in town (almost) festivity will be burned

into my walls whether i or my walls like it or not.  Right now James

Brown's Xmas music.  HEY AMERICA ITS Xmastime!

 

Ooops.  Gotta do that Turkey thing first.  Thanksgiving Prayer by WSB on

"Dead City Radio" is all that is really necessary for that holiday.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:38:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

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>It's a big world, bud, with lots of assholes in it.  Those on death row,

>and those on Madison Avenue, and those living down the street.  Be

>idealistic, but don't expect the world to come along... as long as there

>are assholes in the world, they are gonna screw it up.  Not only that,

>shit happens regardless of assholes.  Complaining about government has

>only one logical conclusion... get in there and run for office!

>SHOW us what you are talking about!

 

     mmm.. i cringe at being called idealistic cause i like to think

i've left it behind.. it's not so much idealism i don;t think, as some

basic instinctual value placed on life.  regardless of morals, ethics,

or other societorial imposed norms.  i could never run for office

though, ack, politics bores me to no end.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:13:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Grismore <ggrismor@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

In-Reply-To:  <msg1259755.thr-68b654d4.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

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On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

>my problem isn't with the fact that it's being presented, but the

>manner in which it is done and accepted; the fact that she was grinning

>at the deliberate cessation of life.  makes me wonder what's happening

>in our heads, is compassion dead?

 

Compassion is as alive as it's ever been, though that's not saying much.

Public executions have been forms of mass entertainment for hundreds of

years:

  *The last public guillotining (sp?) in France occurred  on

June 17, 1939, witnessed by a noisy, determined mob at street-level, as

well as a group of higher-class clientelle who had rented every possible

window/balcony/vantage point at premium prices.  The crowd cheered at 4:50

am when the head dropped and graphic photos soon graced the front cover

of almost every French newspaper.

  *The last public execution in the USA reportedly occurred in Owensboro, KY

in 1936.  This was witnessed by a crowd of 20,000, many of whom had

attended all-night 'hanging parties' to prime themselves for the 5:12 am

hanging.  A cheer was raised at the falling of the bolt, and soon the

still-warm body was mobbed by a throng of souvenir-hunters ripping and

tearing at clothing, flesh, and hair.  Two doctors were finally able to

make an examination upon the body - their report of heartbeats eliciting a

groan throughout the crowd, until a pronouncal of death was finally

declared at 5:45.

 

What's my point - Hell, I don't know.  I guess only that we are going in

the right direction. We are not there yet, and some dizzy bimbo on TV

feeding us murder with a smile, is a disturbing reminder of that, but

closing our eyes to the past and the progress that has been made is not

going to help.  What is? Again, I don't know. Here are some ideas: Join

amnesty international, vote Libertarian, write a letter to the editor...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:50:30 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to

any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for

consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.

and i have a bit of an empty head right now,

but (armorplated glass house)

i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class

or philosophy 101

does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?

winner gets sound of one hand clapping.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:54:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady ad.......formerly

              re:kerouac ads

Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net

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>Hey guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we

>could somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see?  I think

>the theme music, led zep, would be perfect!

 

     LED ZEPPELIN!!  alright, a fellow fan... interestingly enough,

Robert Plant has a pretty wanderlust beat attitude...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:55:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

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>i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class

>or philosophy 101

>does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?

>winner gets sound of one hand clapping.

 

     i empathize with you, but it's all relative... one way or another.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:45:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>

Subject:      Atheism -- Agnostic

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I once, paradoxically, put my faith in atheism.  This was intertwined with a

view that spirituality was religion, that religion's only honorable purpose

was to explain the unexplainable, and that the majority of answers that

religion gave - If God created man, who created God? - simply removed the

question one step.

 

As the years past, my distrust of organized religion did not diminish, but a

feeling of being attached to something bigger grew.  My first definable

spiritual experience did not occur in a church or mosque or temple but

cross-country skiing, in Northern Quebec, through the ancient hills of the

Laurentians.  I was alone in the blue sky-ed, thirty below wilderness, high

on exertion.  The crisp sun peering through the leafless maples, dancing on

the fresh trackless snow, the world silent save for the sounds of the trees

creaking and my own panting.  And then, it shifted.  I was no longer a lone

skier in nature but a small part of nature.  I felt connected, not only to

the natural beauty surrounding me, but to my known & unknown ancestors, my

descendants to come, to everything and everyone.  I was a part of this big

rolling ball of life and it felt good.  There was no past, no future, there

was only the moment, the greater we, that always was and would continue to

be.  In bliss I floated, not seeing angels or Gods, but simply being.  I

slid out of this heightened awareness cold, miles from the cabin, serene and

forever changed.

 

This short glimpse made me put away my proudly worn label of atheism.  I

still see no need for a supreme power, or for the fatalistic answers

he/she/it may give.  I am not the center or end point but a mere speck in

the continuum.  I like the term agnostic -- self defined as a disbelief in

organized religion but a consciousness of something bigger.  Being spiritual

is being connected, the touchstone of acceptance & contentment. It is not me

vs you or man vs nature, for on a higher level, we are all one.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:42:39 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      A little too much of the Dharma

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'A wellknown truth in every private heart

in this long night of life:

A big defecation leaves nothing to be wiped,

A small one, there's no wiping it.

 This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)

 

It seems Jack had a bit too much time on his hands in early '55...

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:08:38 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

 

yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

thread in ages.... *yawn*

 

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marie Countryman

Sent:   Friday, November 21, 1997 4:50 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        is this still beat-l?

 

first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to

any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for

consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.

and i have a bit of an empty head right now,

but (armorplated glass house)

i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class

or philosophy 101

does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?

winner gets sound of one hand clapping.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:16:47 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      beats and atheism

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  I don't think it's possible to say that the Beats really promoted

atheism or caused atheism in anyone. Rather, they took what they liked

of other religions and mixed them all together. Beat Literature was

religion to a lot of people, part Buddhism, part jazz, part LSD.  The

Beats both celebrated and closely examined life. Ginsberg, Kerouac,

Burroughs and all the others each had their own personal problems, but

when they wrote, they were unified. That is a very beautiful thing

that cannot be regarded as anything less than spiritual.

                              Maggie G.

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:03:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

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     to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to

simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any

particular religion.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:06:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Rbt. Johnson etching

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971118091419.24600A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Derek,

Check sent to pay for print was returned because of Postal strike in

Canado. E-mail me when the strike is over.

 

j grant

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:12:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>

Subject:      Big Sur

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711211909340216@classic.msn.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:

>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

>thread in ages.... *yawn*

 

 

I reread Big Sur while  on my California pilgrimage in September.  I also

drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look

around for a while.  I stood on the rocks and read  "Sea" - listening to

the waves crash in.  Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

 

 

....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...

No human words bespeak

the token sorrow older

than old this wave....

 

    Excerpt from "Sea"

    JK - Big Sur

 

 

Judith

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:34:32 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

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Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!

You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new

topic should initiate it.

s.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:37:52 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

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That's REAL nice, but I think you need to use your dictionary to

undersand the actual MEANING of belief and faith.

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:53:49 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

In-Reply-To:  <msg1267209.thr-2a817531.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-version: 1.0

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On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

>      to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to

> simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any

> particular religion.

 

"Agnostic" means that you believe it's not possible to *know* whether or

not God exists--and since it is not possible to know this, you must keep

open the *possibility* that He does, as well as the *possibility* that He

does not.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:06:06 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur/vanity of duluoz

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i'll be following you shortly, judith, will be on the west coast next month.

(taking big sur out of bookcase as i type. additionally , i'd be interested in

reading/discussing vanity of duluoz: first time reading many years ago, too

young, i believe myself to have been to read through the rawness to the core.

i've attended beat seminars in which most hotly debated work has been the

duluoz, would be very interestd in having a reading and discussio of this

work.

thanks for giving my brain a jolt of energetic thought.

mc

 

 

Judith Campbell wrote:

 

> At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:

> >yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

> >thread in ages.... *yawn*

> 

> I reread Big Sur while  on my California pilgrimage in September.  I also

> drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look

> around for a while.  I stood on the rocks and read  "Sea" - listening to

> the waves crash in.  Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

> struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

> 

> ....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...

> No human words bespeak

> the token sorrow older

> than old this wave....

> 

>     Excerpt from "Sea"

>     JK - Big Sur

> 

> Judith

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:24:21 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Judith Campbell wrote:

> 

> At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:

> >yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

> >thread in ages.... *yawn*

> 

> I reread Big Sur while  on my California pilgrimage in September.  I also

> drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look

> around for a while.  I stood on the rocks and read  "Sea" - listening to

> the waves crash in.  Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

> struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

> 

> ....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...

> No human words bespeak

> the token sorrow older

> than old this wave....

> 

>     Excerpt from "Sea"

>     JK - Big Sur

> 

> Judith

 

I'm up for something different.  Big Sur was on my Xmas want list but i

may buy it in Denver at Tattered Cover and send Santa a revised list.

(I haven't been a particularly good boy anyway).

 

I found the idea of a novel length suicide note a very intriguing way of

looking at Big Sur -- at least figuratively if not literally.  This

impression seems to go a step further than what i've heard from others

concerning the novel -- and perhaps it is a step worth looking at

closely in reading Big Sur.

 

to kill some time this afternoon i did a bit of searching about Big

Sur.  Here is something of what I found......

 

Just for some background, I did a metacrawler search

<http://www.metacrawler.com/index.html> of Kerouac "Big Sur" and found

some information which some may find useful.  I'm fairly certain that

others will have many more sites to augment this list.

 

As one might expect, Levi Asher has a nice commentary on the novel "Big

Sur" at: <http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Books/BigSurBook.html> as well

as a nice page on Beat Places discussing Big Sur at:

<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Places/BigSurPlace.html>

 

Also, in the Kerouac section of the John Cassady interview, JC talks

briefly about Kerouac at LF's cabin.

<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/JCI/JCI-Two.html>

In addition, various pages pop up with more than a passing reference as

in the following: <http://www.kerouac.com/kerouac/bigsur.html> --

Amazon.com includes links to write reviews of the book to be

incorporated into their site

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0140168125/gloriagbrameA/0070-7114361-

 694721>

 

like i said, this is nowhere near a compleat list.  just some tidbits i

found trying to weed out the most passing references in general JK pages

on my search.

 

i imagine others will have access to reviews and other places to dig.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:31:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady ad.......formerly

              re:kerouac ads

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>Hey guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we

>>could somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see?  I think

>>the theme music, led zep, would be perfect!

> 

>     LED ZEPPELIN!!  alright, a fellow fan... interestingly enough,

>Robert Plant has a pretty wanderlust beat attitude...

 

I gotta say you folks got taste.  Spent last night jammin' on Led Zep tunes

with new buddies.  Our singer had his eye-lights put out in Vietnam, is a

counselor and writes books about how to have healthy relationships, and he

sounds like Robert Plant. And Now Zeppelin on the list.  Too much damn fun!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:42:22 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      opening chapter of duluoz

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All right, wifey, maybe i'm a big pain in the you-know-what,but after

I've given you a recitation of the troubles I had to go through to make

good in America between 1935 and more or less now, 1967, and although I

also know everybody in the world's had his own troubles, you'll

understand that my particular form of anguish came from being too

sensitive to all the lunkheads I had to deal with just so I could get to

be a high school football star, a college student pouring coffee and

washing dishes and scrimmaging till dark and reading Homer's _Illiad_ in

three days all at the same time and God help me, a WRITER whose very

'success,' far from being the a happy triumph as in old, was the sign of

doom Himself. (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use

regular punctuation for the new illiterate generation).

Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says, but in the past thirty years

to such an extent that I don't recognize them as people any more or

recognize myself as a real member of something called the human race. I

can remember in 1935 when fulgrown men, hands deep in jacket pockets,

used to go whistling down the street unnoticed by anybody and noticing

no one themselves. And walking fast, too, to work or store or

girlfriend. Nowadays, tell me, what is this slouching stroll people

have? Is it because they're used to walking across parking lots only?

Has the automobile filled them with such vanity that they walk like a

bunch of lounging hoodlums to no destination in particular?

_______

a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat

generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of

freedom.

also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did

not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature

in the sentence

"And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."

_____

my hats in the ring, gents and women, shall we venture further into this

territory?

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:46:52 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      netiquette

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i would like furthermore to comment on the vast number of one sentence

zingers and arguments that refer to unknown posts, other then those

partaking in the argument, fill and clutter mail box, and because there

is a limit of number of posts per day (is that still right, bill?)

clutter mailboxes. really, please take it off list.

thankyou

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:55:01 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      big sur/research

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dave: wonderful list of resources. i'm going to be out of computer range

for a day or two, but will be hightailing it into the web as soon as i'm

back (while gone, i hope to finish reading duluoz and have that as an

overview. i had always thought of duluoz as the novel as a suicide note

of jack's spirit, it looks to be an interesting project.

thanks.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:27:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      New Kerouac Bio

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The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page has been updated again today! Always more

news on Jack...

 

  For those who haven't yet gotten Vol. I, No. 2, they are selling out

quick. E-mail me first for availability. It looks like Vol. II, No. 1 will

be available after the first of the next year. Lots of good stuff once more.

 

Still some copies of Selected Letters Volume I left, all hardcover firsts

fresh out of the box from Viking, plus a free complimentary copy of The

Kerouac Quarterly!

 

Also, news on a new bio coming out in June...go to:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

                                   Thanks folks!

                                 Paul of TKQ!!

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:07:09 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

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Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> re: suggesting new topics, sara, i guess you are new here, as i have

> offered up many a topic in the past to get the list moving back on

> topic,

> which is the reading and discussion of the writings of the beats.

>  just giving other folk time to reflect over the past month and choose

> 

> something to read. judith has offered up a novel and so have i. read

> either of them? interested in reading them for what is in the text and

> 

> discussing them?  and i'm sure there are many list-servs which have

> what

> you are looking for philosophy-wise, or do what many members of this

> list

> do when  topic strays into special interest off topics: cc: one

> another

> and discuss. this has been done often, most recently the folks who

> read

> Ulysseus did so off list, making both them and others happy. i for one

> 

> would like you to stay here and read with us.

> mc

> 

> Sara Straw wrote:

> 

> > Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!

> > You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a

> new

> > topic should initiate it.

> > s.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:20:17 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 03:12 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

>At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:

>>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

>>thread in ages.... *yawn*

> 

> 

>I reread Big Sur while  on my California pilgrimage in September.  I also

>drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look

>around for a while.  I stood on the rocks and read  "Sea" - listening to

>the waves crash in.  Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

>heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

>alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

>struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

> 

> 

>....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...

>No human words bespeak

>the token sorrow older

>than old this wave....

> 

>    Excerpt from "Sea"

>    JK - Big Sur

> 

> 

>Judith

> 

> 

 

I haven't read Big Sur in a long time.

 

Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the

Deep Sea Say? with the chorus

 

What did the deep sea say?

What did the deep sea say?

It moaned and it groaned

and it splashed and it foamed

and it rolled on its' weary way

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:16:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

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Gary Grismore cited the following:

 

> Public executions have been forms of mass entertainment for hundreds of

> years:

>   *The last public guillotining (sp?) in France occurred  on

> June 17, 1939, witnessed by a noisy, determined mob at street-level, as

> well as a group of higher-class clientele who had rented every possible

> window/balcony/vantage point at premium prices.  The crowd cheered at

4:50

> am when the head dropped and graphic photos soon graced the front cover

> of almost every French newspaper.

>   *The last public execution in the USA reportedly occurred in Owensboro,

KY

> in 1936.  This was witnessed by a crowd of 20,000, many of whom had

> attended all-night 'hanging parties' to prime themselves for the 5:12 am

> hanging.  A cheer was raised at the falling of the bolt, and soon the

> still-warm body was mobbed by a throng of souvenir-hunters ripping and

> tearing at clothing, flesh, and hair.  Two doctors were finally able to

> make an examination upon the body - their report of heartbeats eliciting

a

> groan throughout the crowd, until a pronouncal of death was finally

> declared at 5:45.

 

In my home state (Wisconsin) there has only been one official execution,

over 100 years ago.  The reaction of the mob was so appalling (similar to

that described above) that capital punishment was legally abolished here,

and so far remains so.  Although there are those who would like to roll

back civilization once again...

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:35:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

Comments: To: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <msg1259953.thr-63eeecba.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >How can an atheist be spiritual?  I understand how spirit and the

> >supreme

> >being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual

> >do.

> >Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line

> >with

> >atheism.

> 

>      because all atheism states is the absence of a belief in a

> godhead, period.  now, atheism is as much a trap as any other ism but i

> won't get into that.

> 

As Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:59:48 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      Ginsberg memorial

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

  I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg

memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the

general public? If so, will it be a free event?

  I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed

themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a

remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever

put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,

alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've

worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've

learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote

'Howl' back in the 60's."

  He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will

continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my

life for all of my days.

                           Maggie G.

Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:17:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap ad.

In-Reply-To:  <3475B372.1E47@concentric.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched?

 

It has been _very_ retouched.  Joyce Johnson is supposed to be standing

right behind him leaning against the wall.  I don't think the leg of the R

was visible in the original but I don't have it in front of me to check.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:27:16 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap ad.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:17 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

>> Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched?

> 

>It has been _very_ retouched.  Joyce Johnson is supposed to be standing

>right behind him leaning against the wall.  I don't think the leg of the R

>was visible in the original but I don't have it in front of me to check.

> 

>------------------

>Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

>kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

> 

> 

 

I seem to also remember having seen it in color.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:12:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

 

In a message dated 97-11-21 16:48:19 EST, judith wrote:

 

<< Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

 heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

 alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

 struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

 

  >>

I couldn't agree with you more, Judith. I read Big Sur again last summer and

felt the same way, only I never got around to putting it in these words,

which are perfect, disturbing and true.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:35:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: A little too much of the Dharma

 

In a message dated 97-11-21 14:55:17 EST, Adrien wrote:

 

<< This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)

  >>

 

Jack thought a lot about the toilet, you know, not just in 1955 but on and

on. In BIG SUR elements of the ritual of shitting become real issues for him,

and I quote:

 

"The President of the United States, the big ministers of state, the great

bishops and shmishops and big shots everywhere, down to the lowest factory

worker with all his fierce pride, movie stars, executives and great engineers

and presidents of law firms with silk shirts and neckties and great expensive

traveling cases in which they place these various expensive English imported

hair brushes and shaving gear and pomades and perfumes are all walking around

with dirty azzoles! All you gotta do is simply wash yourself with soap and

water! it hasnt occurred to anybody in America at all! it's one of the

funniest things I've ever heard of! dont you think it's marvelous that we're

being called filthy unwashed beatnikes but we're the only ones walking around

with clean azzoles?" [sic all punctuation/capitalization]

 

In only slight contrast, perfectly appropriate to a Zen master, Lin-Chi says:

 

"In Buddhism there is no place for using effort. Just be ordinary and nothing

special. Eat your food, move your bowels, pass water, and when you're tired

go and lie down again. The ignorant will laugh at me, but the wise will

understand.

 

 

I always am reminded how deep was Jack's search (no pun) for spirituality

when I read the many, many things he wrote about the care and feeding of his

body while obeying his equally strong compulsion for self-destruction.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:03:38 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Ginsberg memorial

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:59 PM 11/21/97 -0800, you wrote:

>  I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg

>memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the

>general public? If so, will it be a free event?

>  I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed

>themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a

>remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever

>put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,

>alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've

>worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've

>learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote

>'Howl' back in the 60's."

>  He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will

>continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my

>life for all of my days.

>                           Maggie G.

>Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"

> 

> 

> 

>__________________________________________________________________

>Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

> 

>That crazy guy wrote and recited that crazy poem Howl back in

the fifties.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:04:30 -0500

Reply-To:     blackj@bigmagic.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ginsberg memorial

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Maggie Gerrity wrote:

> 

>   I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg

> memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the

> general public? If so, will it be a free event?

>   I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed

> themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a

> remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever

> put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,

> alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've

> worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've

> learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote

> 'Howl' back in the 60's."

>   He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will

> continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my

> life for all of my days.

>                            Maggie G.

> Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"

> 

> __________________________________________________________________

> Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

MAGGIE:  The Parks Department says June 3 is the date for the annual

Central Park Conservancy and regrets erroneously notifying me

otherwise.  The tribute, planned as a two-day observance (one day in

Central Park and the next day in Newark's new PAC Center) is expected to

attract poets and artists from all over the world.  Amiri Baraka and I

have struggled to get the Central Park date because all previous

Ginsberg Memorials were held within 4 walls, and many who wanted to

attend couldn't BECuaaw there wasn't enough room.  We call the June

tribute "A Convocation of Contemporaneity's 'Best Minds.'"  The event

will be open to all and the date will be June 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12.  An

executive committee meeting must be held shortly to decide which date.

---Al Aronowitz, secretary, THE ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE.

--

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:15:18 -0800

Reply-To:     gbarker@thegrid.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Anne <gbarker@THEGRID.NET>

Subject:      Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

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Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

>      to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to

> simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any

> particular religion.

 

  I am agnostic, and, at least to me, it means that I believe that there

is something more powerful than myself that affects my life, but it is

beyond my comprehension and it would be a waste of my time to try to

figure its intentions.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:13:46 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      TIME Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

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Anne wrote:

> 

> Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> 

> >      to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to

> > simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any

> > particular religion.

> 

>   I am agnostic, and, at least to me, it means that I believe that there

> is something more powerful than myself that affects my life, but it is

> beyond my comprehension and it would be a waste of my time to try to

> figure its intentions.

 

sounds like maybe you've comprehended it and named it Time.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

"Death needs Time for what it lives to Grow on - for Ah Pook's Sweet

Sake." -- WSB

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:48:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

In-Reply-To:  <971121191223_617548379@mrin58.mail.aol.com>

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You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>>In a message dated 97-11-21 16:48:19 EST,

judith wrote:

> 

><< Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

> struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

> 

>  >>

>I couldn't agree with you more, Judith. I read Big Sur again last summer an=

d

>felt the same way, only I never got around to putting it in these words,

>which are perfect, disturbing and true.

 

I really do like Big Sur despite its sadness. You can see that this is

Kerouac at his most worn out and also at his most sincere. It is as if some

of the magic of life, and how he had viewed life in say, OTR, had kind of

been torn apart by the alcaholism and the reality of life and failure and

relationships. Now he can look back on what happened to him and see that he

is failing but that he no longer has the energy to repair the "botch of his

days". He is almost done "going". Is it in here that he says that it will

be his last hitchhike, or that he is done hitchhiking? Big Sur is my

favorite Kerouac after OTR.

 

leo

 

 

 

 

"All I wanted was to be a mariachi like my ancestors. But the city I

thought would bring me luck...Brought only a curse...I lost my guitar, my

hand, and her...With this injury, I may never play the guitar

again...Without her, I have no love. But with the dog...and the weapons,

I'm prepared...for the future." --The Mariachi in "El Mariachi"

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:01:39 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

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Marie Countryman wrote:

> _______

> a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat

> generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of

> freedom.

> also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did

> not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature

> in the sentence

> "And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."

 

I can't get over how bitter Jack is in the first chapter. He's refuting

everything he used to enjoy doing. It's a big, bitter,

been-there-done-that-so-what attitude. It's also sad to see him abandon

his spontaneous prose, of which he was very proud. In 1967 he comes

across as a boozed-up, lazy man. As we go further into the book, we'll

see the familiar Kerouac reverie that made him so great (if the book was

ALL bitterness, I wouldn't be rereading it again). We just have to

endure the grumpy old man's surliness in the first five or so pages.

 

Also, you can sense a bit of sad longing for his days with Neal...

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:10:25 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

Comments: To: saras@sisna.com

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Sara Straw wrote:

> 

> Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!

> You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new

> topic should initiate it.

> s.

 

I'll initiate a new topic...

Why are you here? Do you know much about the beats? Do you want to learn

more about the beats? Do you love Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs? Do

you love Kerouac, but not Ginsberg and Burroughs? Do you love Ginsberg,

but not Kerouac and Burroughs? Do you love Burroughs, but not Kerouac

and Ginsberg? Do you love Kerouac and Ginsberg, but not Burroughs? Do

you love Kerouac and Burroughs, but not Ginsberg? Do you love Ginsberg

and Burroughs, but not Kerouac? Or do you just dig Bob Kaufman?

 

All we know is beat-l has received another surly member.

 

emoticonlessly yrs,

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:40:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Mama Collins

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Mama Collins

 

Shell,

Eyes of lost child,

Wanderer on highways,

Going home?

 

One Christmas,

Recalling my name,

A flash I recognized.

Later, sitting outside

Nursing home,

I refused to see the remnants of

Matriarchal dynasty.

Thoughtless, lost shell,

No person here.

 

Now, wishing to see beyond the shell,

Regrets are sifted.

Synapsis misfiring.

Not arteries, but sickness.

Had I known

Fear of aging,

of madness,

of slipping slowly away,

of suffering.

Had I but seen beyond the shell.

Perhaps, sifting regrets,

Looking to see beyond.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:47:54 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Adrien Begrand wrote:

> 

> Sara Straw wrote:

> >

> > Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!

> > You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new

> > topic should initiate it.

> > s.

> 

> I'll initiate a new topic...

> Why are you here? Do you know much about the beats? Do you want to learn

> more about the beats? Do you love Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs? Do

> you love Kerouac, but not Ginsberg and Burroughs? Do you love Ginsberg,

> but not Kerouac and Burroughs? Do you love Burroughs, but not Kerouac

> and Ginsberg? Do you love Kerouac and Ginsberg, but not Burroughs? Do

> you love Kerouac and Burroughs, but not Ginsberg? Do you love Ginsberg

> and Burroughs, but not Kerouac? Or do you just dig Bob Kaufman?

> 

> All we know is beat-l has received another surly member.

> 

> emoticonlessly yrs,

> 

> Adrien

 

i just hate them all to hell!!!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:04:22 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>> Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the

>> Deep Sea Say? with the chorus

>> 

>> What did the deep sea say?

>> What did the deep sea say?

>> It moaned and it groaned

>> and it splashed and it foamed

>> and it rolled on its' weary way

> 

>That's really nice.  I'm amazed of how little Woody Guthrie I've actually

>heard, considering what an influence he's been on many of my favorite

>artists.  Would you mind telling me where this song is available?  Thanks,

>Gary

 

 

There are Guthrie tapes and CD's available.  Many with Cisco Houston.  They

compile them differntly depending on who releases the recording so for this

one you'd need to look for the titles on the back and see if the song is

there (I forget the name of this particular tape.  I think it is called

what did the deep sea say so it's easy to tell if it is there.  One thing I

can say for sure is it is not one of the songs on the Library of Congress

set.

 

You can't go wrong buying a Woody Guthrie recording.  Just make sure it is

Woody Guthrie.  Sometimes they package tributes that will fool you.  You

think you're buying a Guthrie recording and your buying other people

singing the songs.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:23:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      woody guthrie  (was Re: Big Sur

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> >On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> >> Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the

> >> Deep Sea Say? with the chorus

> >>

> >> What did the deep sea say?

> >> What did the deep sea say?

> >> It moaned and it groaned

> >> and it splashed and it foamed

> >> and it rolled on its' weary way

> >

> >That's really nice.  I'm amazed of how little Woody Guthrie I've actually

> >heard, considering what an influence he's been on many of my favorite

> >artists.  Would you mind telling me where this song is available?  Thanks,

> >Gary

> 

> There are Guthrie tapes and CD's available.  Many with Cisco Houston.  They

> compile them differntly depending on who releases the recording so for this

> one you'd need to look for the titles on the back and see if the song is

> there (I forget the name of this particular tape.  I think it is called

> what did the deep sea say so it's easy to tell if it is there.  One thing I

> can say for sure is it is not one of the songs on the Library of Congress

> set.

> 

> You can't go wrong buying a Woody Guthrie recording.  Just make sure it is

> Woody Guthrie.  Sometimes they package tributes that will fool you.  You

> think you're buying a Guthrie recording and your buying other people

> singing the songs.

 

some of the tributes are really pretty good.  they definitely show some

of the range of influence WG had on a wide variety of music - not just

on dylan.

 

his songbook "Hard hitting songs" is pretty good and books "Seeds of

Man" and "Born to Win" are Excellent.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

p.s.  oh yeah that other book "Bound for Glory" ain't bad either.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 07:32:41 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

 

i agree with you, Judith.  it's an amazing piece of confessional writing that

one wonders if the confessor really understood just how much he was showing

us.  what a raw bearing of human soul in torment, loss, conflict and longing.

 

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Judith Campbell

Sent:   Friday, November 21, 1997 12:12 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Big Sur

 

At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:

>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

>thread in ages.... *yawn*

 

 

I reread Big Sur while  on my California pilgrimage in September.  I also

drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look

around for a while.  I stood on the rocks and read  "Sea" - listening to

the waves crash in.  Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

 

 

....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...

No human words bespeak

the token sorrow older

than old this wave....

 

    Excerpt from "Sea"

    JK - Big Sur

 

 

Judith

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:40:49 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: woody guthrie  (was Re: Big Sur

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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I have to recommend _Ballads of Sacco & Vanzetti_. Truly Amazing!

 

Adrien

 

RACE --- wrote:

> 

> some of the tributes are really pretty good.  they definitely show some

> of the range of influence WG had on a wide variety of music - not just

> on dylan.

> 

> his songbook "Hard hitting songs" is pretty good and books "Seeds of

> Man" and "Born to Win" are Excellent.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> 

> p.s.  oh yeah that other book "Bound for Glory" ain't bad either.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:24:43 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      latin people

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

cari amici,

 

i've a flashback of a movie with Dennis Hopper

in a latino american country (Mexico?) dated

circa 1970, where a group of friends have a

similar experience to Sal Paradise and

Dean Moriarty in the 3th part of "On the Road".

 

somehow or other the exotic countries are

described such as place where people goes

crazy and transgressive. this way is a bit

disappointing. why Mexico, Brazil, Italy, etc.

are match with such strange peculiarity?

 

i.e. the "german" people (or others of course, but

i've noticed them) when are in Italy they have

drunk and very rude, but when are in his own country

(saying Munich) they are square and respectable person.

 

un saluto a tutti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:43:17 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Mama Collins

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

hi bentz: your pome just brought to mind all the mixed feelings i

experienced in looking at pictures taken of my father this past summer.

alcoholic and small strokes in succession, i looked at the photos and

saw only a shell, no light of comprehension in the eyes, couldn't write

of it yet. thanks, you give my muse a wider scope than my mind has been

able to allow/

mc

 

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> Mama Collins

> 

> Shell,

> Eyes of lost child,

> Wanderer on highways,

> Going home?

> 

> One Christmas,

> Recalling my name,

> A flash I recognized.

> Later, sitting outside

> Nursing home,

> I refused to see the remnants of

> Matriarchal dynasty.

> Thoughtless, lost shell,

> No person here.

> 

> Now, wishing to see beyond the shell,

> Regrets are sifted.

> Synapsis misfiring.

> Not arteries, but sickness.

> Had I known

> Fear of aging,

> of madness,

> of slipping slowly away,

> of suffering.

> Had I but seen beyond the shell.

> Perhaps, sifting regrets,

> Looking to see beyond.

> 

> --

> 

> Peace,

> 

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:12:40 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> All right, wifey, maybe i'm a big pain in the you-know-what,but after

> I've given you a recitation of the troubles I had to go through to make

> good in America between 1935 and more or less now, 1967, and although I

> also know everybody in the world's had his own troubles, you'll

> understand that my particular form of anguish came from being too

> sensitive to all the lunkheads I had to deal with just so I could get to

> be a high school football star, a college student pouring coffee and

> washing dishes and scrimmaging till dark and reading Homer's _Illiad_ in

> three days all at the same time and God help me, a WRITER whose very

> 'success,' far from being the a happy triumph as in old, was the sign of

> doom Himself. (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use

> regular punctuation for the new illiterate generation).

> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says, but in the past thirty years

> to such an extent that I don't recognize them as people any more or

> recognize myself as a real member of something called the human race. I

> can remember in 1935 when fulgrown men, hands deep in jacket pockets,

> used to go whistling down the street unnoticed by anybody and noticing

> no one themselves. And walking fast, too, to work or store or

> girlfriend. Nowadays, tell me, what is this slouching stroll people

> have? Is it because they're used to walking across parking lots only?

> Has the automobile filled them with such vanity that they walk like a

> bunch of lounging hoodlums to no destination in particular?

> _______

> a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat

> generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of

> freedom.

> also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did

> not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature

> in the sentence

> "And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."

> _____

> my hats in the ring, gents and women, shall we venture further into this

> territory?

> mc

 

at the risk of appearing *too* twisted, the second reading of this

didn't seem to me to be harsh at all.  it seemed in fact that JK was

near a breakthrough to a recognition of the absurdity of wanting

everyone to walk alike.

 

this morning i was goofing around and found this site

<http://members.aol.com/KatharenaE/private/Philo/Existentialism/absurd.html>

and it made me think even more about my second reading.  In the earlier

Kerouac that i've read there was a beauty in the innocent discovery of

new people who were different.  Here he seems to not only have lost that

-- but gotten to where (excuse my dashes i have no clue how to use them

nor parentheses) his recognition of difference is at a pit of not being

able to see the possibility of being part of the human race he once

enjoyed so much.  But the wonderful absurdity of the human race is

probably precisely the differences the total alien-ness of my neighbor

across the hall.  The current trends in culture trying to teach suburban

mall conformity (which i seem to recall WSB's late journals in the New

Yorker decrying) and the reactionary conformity of anti-conformity in

various groups and sub-groups found outside of the malls seem to me to

be really very close to the anger suggested in these openings.  And yet

it is just a short skip from this anger to reveling in the excitement

that things aren't the same.  I think Vanity in the title will be

telling - the absurdity of vanity (not the suppression of it -- but just

realizing that vanity is rarely rationally defensible yet nonetheless

felt deeply) goes along way in trying to figure out this whole Legend

and its lessons for me (at least).

 

At any rate that is a saturday morning twisted salina monologue ---- i

imagine that my third reading of the opening would send me somewhere

completely different <las>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

p.s.  I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my

family and relatives and whatnot.  But i'm interested, in the event that

i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"

order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them?  Any

suggestions?

 

also thanks to antoine for some Xmas music tips -- any other backchannel

Xmas music ideas will be thoroughly appreciated.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:23:19 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

> mc

 

anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

here?  i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to

check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough

to the other side of writer's block>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:25:32 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      atheism-agnostic

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Subject:

>         Atheism -- Agnostic

>   Date:

>         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:45:27 -0500

>   From:

>         Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>

> 

> 

> I once, paradoxically, put my faith in atheism.  This was intertwined with a

> view that spirituality was religion, that religion's only honorable purpose

> was to explain the unexplainable, and that the majority of answers that

> religion gave - If God created man, who created God? - simply removed the

> question one step.

> 

> As the years past, my distrust of organized religion did not diminish, but a

> feeling of being attached to something bigger grew.  My first definable

> spiritual experience did not occur in a church or mosque or temple but

> cross-country skiing, in Northern Quebec, through the ancient hills of the

> Laurentians.  I was alone in the blue sky-ed, thirty below wilderness, high

> on exertion.  The crisp sun peering through the leafless maples, dancing on

> the fresh trackless snow, the world silent save for the sounds of the trees

> creaking and my own panting.  And then, it shifted.  I was no longer a lone

> skier in nature but a small part of nature.  I felt connected, not only to

> the natural beauty surrounding me, but to my known & unknown ancestors, my

> descendants to come, to everything and everyone.  I was a part of this big

> rolling ball of life and it felt good.  There was no past, no future, there

> was only the moment, the greater we, that always was and would continue to

> be.  In bliss I floated, not seeing angels or Gods, but simply being.  I

> slid out of this heightened awareness cold, miles from the cabin, serene and

> forever changed.

 

 

 

 

Wasn't there one time when Kerouac (to put this nicely) tried copulating

with Nature/Earth in his own backyard?  Wondering if there was any truth

to this, and was it done more as a sign of frustration or a real love of

nature or a spiritual thing?

 

anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:43:14 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Vanity of dulouz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I've looked and looked and every bookstore around here does not seem to

carry vanity of dulouz.  that was the one i was wanting to read next,

after 'some of the dharma.'  is 'dulouz' out of print?  or is it

avaiable (Please all you bookstore employees on the list, help me out

here...)

 

and does anyone know what of jack's unpublished works that the sampas

estate plans on releasing next??????

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:55:38 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Marie Countryman wrote:

>> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

>> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

>> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

>> mc

> 

>anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

>here?

 

 

 

 

Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:59:46 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Vanity of dulouz

Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>I've looked and looked and every bookstore around here does not seem to

>carry vanity of dulouz.  that was the one i was wanting to read next,

>after 'some of the dharma.'  is 'dulouz' out of print?  or is it

>avaiable (Please all you bookstore employees on the list, help me out

>here...)

 

It is in print.  Costs 11.95.  Try another bookstore or Tower Records.

 

There is www.amazon.com or www.barnes&noble.com that are web booksellers.

I have never bought from them, but they will send them to you in a matter

of days at a discount price.

 

If anyone has used these on-line behemoths I'd be curious to hear about it.

 

Also a great humanitarian here provided www.bibliofind.com which seems to

be used books but it has a massive great inventory (inventory should

actually be in quotes).

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:36:47 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

In-Reply-To:  <199711211752.MAA06052@pike.sover.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a

question:

does beat studies fall into the same issues of

canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by

highlighting only a certain few writers?  (and maybe

the list falls prey to this, as well?)

kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?

and if this is the case, does anyone know why?

jim donahue

 

On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to

> any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for

> consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.

> and i have a bit of an empty head right now,

> but (armorplated glass house)

> i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class

> or philosophy 101

> does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?

> winner gets sound of one hand clapping.

> mc

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:44:25 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Cannon Fodder  (was Re: is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Donahue wrote:

> 

> well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a

> question:

> does beat studies fall into the same issues of

> canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by

> highlighting only a certain few writers?  (and maybe

> the list falls prey to this, as well?)

> kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?

> and if this is the case, does anyone know why?

> jim donahue

 

probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a

nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility.  Go Rinaldo Go.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:47:48 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> >Marie Countryman wrote:

> >> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

> >> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

> >> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

> >> mc

> >

> >anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

> >here?

> 

> Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.

 

well obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg

Galaxy - i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not

certain).  I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading lists for Jack that

we'd been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the

basic themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really

frustrate a natural born writer.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:51:18 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Cannon Fodder  (was Re: is this still beat-l?

In-Reply-To:  <347719F9.2290@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> James Donahue wrote:

> >

> > well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a

> > question:

> > does beat studies fall into the same issues of

> > canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by

> > highlighting only a certain few writers?  (and maybe

> > the list falls prey to this, as well?)

> > kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?

> > and if this is the case, does anyone know why?

> > jim donahue

> 

> probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a

> nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility.  Go Rinaldo Go.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> 

do have the html of this website?

id rather go direct than have to swin through all the

stuff that would come up on a keyword search.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:54:04 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend

MIME-Version: 1.0

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David Rhaesa wrote:

 

> p.s.  I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my

> family and relatives and whatnot.  But i'm interested, in the event that

> i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"

> order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them?  Any

> suggestions?

 

I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them

up:

 

Visions of Gerard

Dr. Sax

Maggie Cassidy

Vanity of Duluoz

The Town and the City

On The Road

Visions of Cody

Lonesome Traveler

Book of Blues

The Subterraneans

The Book of Dreams

The Dharma Bums

The Scripture of the Golden Eternity

Old Angel Midnight

Some of the Dharma

Desolation Angels

Mexico City Blues

Tristessa

Big Sur

Trip Trap

Satori in Paris

 

Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here!  This

thread is going to be interesting....

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:58:56 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cannon Fodder  (was Re: is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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James Donahue wrote:

> 

> do have the html of this website?

> id rather go direct than have to swin through all the

> stuff that would come up on a keyword search.

 

the shit-kicking list is at:

<http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/thebeats.htm>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:08:09 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

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> As Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.

> Cordially,

> Mike Skau

 

I give up, what does THAT mean?

It sounds real cute, but doesn't compute.

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:14:36 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>> 

>> >Marie Countryman wrote:

>> >> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

>> >> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

>> >> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

>> >> mc

>> >

>> >anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

>> >here?

>> 

>> Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.

> 

>well obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg

>Galaxy - i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not

>certain).  I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading lists for Jack that

>we'd been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the

>basic themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really

>frustrate a natural born writer.

> 

 

You think a good boy like Jack wasn't reading Catholic World?

 

I am sure he was familiar with McCluhan fro awhile from mcCluhans writings

about Finnegans wake.

 

(Which McCluhan book is specifically referred to in the opening allusion in

Vanity of Duluoz (if any partiular one) --I don't know).

 

 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:38:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Splicing in AG into the Beat-Legend (was Re: Ordering of the

              Duluoz Legend

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Jym Mooney wrote:

> 

> I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them

> up:

 

OK -- thats An order so folks may want to quibble about it in the

previous thread.  Now i'm wondering from those out there (and i know

some of you are out there!) how you would splice in the various books by

Allen Ginsberg.  (yes, WSB, Corso, Snyder, etc. etc. are down the road

in this line of thinking.  no particular reason i picked AG second.

just did).....thanks for the help.  i like this list that although is

still in fetus stage - may be going somewhere someday somehow.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

> 

> Visions of Gerard

> Dr. Sax

> Maggie Cassidy

> Vanity of Duluoz

> The Town and the City

> On The Road

> Visions of Cody

> Lonesome Traveler

> Book of Blues

> The Subterraneans

> The Book of Dreams

> The Dharma Bums

> The Scripture of the Golden Eternity

> Old Angel Midnight

> Some of the Dharma

> Desolation Angels

> Mexico City Blues

> Tristessa

> Big Sur

> Trip Trap

> Satori in Paris

> 

> Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here!  This

> thread is going to be interesting....

> 

> Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 03:01:53 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

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> RACE wrote:

 

> this morning i was goofing around and found this site

> 

>http://members.aol.com/KatharenaE/private/Philo/Existentialism/absurd.ht

>ml

> and it made me think even more about my second reading.  In the earlier

> Kerouac that i've read there was a beauty in the innocent discovery of

> new people who were different.  Here he seems to not only have lost

> that

> -- but gotten to where (excuse my dashes i have no clue how to use them

> nor parentheses) his recognition of difference is at a pit of not being

> able to see the possibility of being part of the human race he once

> enjoyed so much.  But the wonderful absurdity of the human race is

> probably precisely the differences the total alien-ness of my neighbor

> across the hall.  The current trends in culture trying to teach

> suburban

> mall conformity (which i seem to recall WSB's late journals in the New

> Yorker decrying) and the reactionary conformity of anti-conformity in

> various groups and sub-groups found outside of the malls seem to me to

> be really very close to the anger suggested in these openings.  And yet

> it is just a short skip from this anger to reveling in the excitement

> that things aren't the same.  I think Vanity in the title will be

> telling - the absurdity of vanity (not the suppression of it -- but

> just

> realizing that vanity is rarely rationally defensible yet nonetheless

> felt deeply) goes along way in trying to figure out this whole Legend

> and its lessons for me (at least).

 

I have some trouble seeing your more positive reading of the passage. I

see it once again as a very tired Kerouac immersed in his own sorrow.

And if you want to work the word "vanity' into it, I would see it more as

the kind of vanity one would find in the Biblical Ecclesiastes, where, if

I remember it correct, it is said "All is vanity."  The end of all of

man's attempts to understand living is frustration.  Man is born to toil,

suffer and to die.  Perhaps in Kerouac's reasoning: what does life really

amount to?  His struggle to get to college as a football player, to leave

football and become a writer; cross the country numerous times, write

about it, but still see himself as misunderstood.  What is there left to

do but drink himself to death?  All his joy is so transitory in

relation to his despair. The same struggle he writes of in Big Sur (pg.

183) "O hell, I'm sick of life--If I had any guts I'd drown myself in

that tiresome water..." And that frustration about the vanity (futility)

of life combined with (pg. 191) "I feel a great ghastly hatred of myself

and everything."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:00:41 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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wrote _the medium is the message_ has great short cameo role in annie hall.

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

> Marie Countryman wrote:

> > Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

> > people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

> > sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

> > mc

> 

> anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

> here?  i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to

> check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough

> to the other side of writer's block>

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:01:11 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      opening and closing books duluoz

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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hey diane: my computer ate yr homework, or else i'd piggy back this onto

your post:(sorry dave i can't see any happy jack here - also in your

reading list, i'd put duluoz last of the list)

going to the text itself, in opening and closing books re penquin

edition:

p 23

"you kill yourself to get to the grave. especially you kill yourself to

get to the grave before you even die, and the name of that grave is

'success', th name of that grave is hullaballo boomboom horseshit.

p29

"for after all what is success? you kill yourself and a few others to

get to the top of your profession, so to speak, so that when you reach

middle age or a little later you can stay home and cultivate your own

garden in bliss: but by that time, because you've invented some kind of

better mousetrap, mobs come rushing across your garden and trampling all

your flowers. what's with that?

pg 262-3

"in fact i began to behink myself in that hospital. i began to

understand that the city intellectuals of the world were divorced from

the folkbody blood of the land and were just rotless fools, to

permissable fools, who really didn't know how to go on living. I began

to get a new vision of  my own of a truer darkness which just

overshadowed all this overlaid mental garbage of 'existentialism' 'and

hipsterism' and bourgeois decadence' and whatever names you want to give

it.

in the purity of my hospital bed, weeks on end, i, staring at the dim

ceiling while the poor men snored, saw that life is a brute creation,

beautiful and cruel, that when you see a springtime bud covered with

raindew, how can you believe it's beautiful when you know the moisture

is just there to encourage the bud to flower out just so's it can fall

off sere dead dry in the fall? all the contemporary LSD acid heads (if

1967) see the cruel beauty of the brute creation just by closing their

eyes: i've seen it too since: a maniacal mandala circle all mosaic and

dense with millions of cruel things and beautiful scenes goin on, like

say, swiftly on one side i saw one night a choirmaster of some sort in

'heaven' slowly going Ooowith his mouth in awe at the beauty of what

they were singing but right next to him is a pig being fed to an

alligator by cruel attendants on a pier and people walking by

unconcerned. just an example. Or that horrible mother kali of ancient

india and its wisdom aeons with all her arms bejeweled, legs and belly

too, gyrating insanely to eat back thru the only part of her that's not

jeweled, her yoni or yin, everythings she's given birth to. Mother

nature giving you birth and eating you back.

and i say wars and social catastrophes arise from the cruel nature of

bestial creation, and not from 'society' which after all has good

intentions or it wouldn't be called 'society' wouold it?

it is, face it , a mean heartless creation emanated by a God of wrath,

jehovah, yaweth, no-name, who will pat you kindly on the head and say

'now your'e being good' when you pray, but when your're begging for

mercy anyway say like a soldier hung by one leg from a tree trunk in

today's Vietnam, when yaweh's really got you out in the back of the barn

even in ordinary natureof fatal illness like my pa's then, he wont (sic)

listen, he will whack away at your lil behind with the long stick of

what they call 'original sin' in the theological christian dogmatic

sects but what i call 'the original sacrifice.'

that's not even worse, for god's sake , than watching your own human

father pop die in real life when you really realize 'father, father, why

has thou forsaken me?' for real, the man who gae you hopeful birth is

copping out right before your eyes and leaves you flat with the whole

problem and burden (your self) of his own foolishness in ever believing

that 'life' was worth anything what it smells like down in the bellevue

morgue when i had to identify franz'a body. your human father sits there

in death before you almost satisfied. that's what's so sad and horrible

about the 'god is dead' movement in contemporary religion, it's the most

tearful and forlorn phiosophical idea of all time."

_____

the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,

who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man he

had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before

becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning

of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.

having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very

successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous

breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and

humanity and spirituality.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:05:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac Gap Ad

 

To all you Madison Avenue Advertizers:

 

I think if you look closely you will see that the the Gap ad is not the same

photo as on Minor Characters by Joyce Johnson. Same roll of film, and it is

possible that Joyce was airbrushed out in the the gap photo, but different

photos.

 

And I would think that the person who took the photo has the rights to

republish the photo. The photographer was Jerome Yulsman.

 

I don't know if you have to get permission from the estate to publish a

public figure, even though in this case I think that they (Gap corp) did.

 

By the way, you can still see the Bar sign if you go to a bar in the village

called Kettle of Fish, not far from NYU. The bar moved from its original

site, and the "bar" sign, which was in the alley, is now inside the bar.

 

so it goes, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:05:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      god vs beat vs truth

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I think the reason I became an atheist is that I don't believe that there=

 is

an afterlife, or that there is a 'god' that has any control over my life =

(or

any body else's life). I belief that my life is a (fortunate) biological

accident. (fortunate for me anyway)

 

And it is because of that belief, that I think that this Life is so much =

more

sacred because this is the one and only.=20

 

It also makes me more aware of the misery that is around me in the world =

(I

am happy to report that my personal life is relatively happy). I am sorry

that these people have to go through their one and only life in such desp=

air

or unhappiness (not necessarily due to their own fault).

 

As far as spirituality, I believe that each person has a soul, and that s=

ome

are better developed (due to personal choice, chance, dumb luck, circumst=

ance

of events, environment, family, friends, mistakes, successes, planning,

surprises, and the unexplained) and that you always have to strive. So ha=

ving

spirituality has no relationship to a belief in an afterlife.

 

You treat a dog like a dog, it becomes a dog. You treat a dog like a pers=

on,

it becomes a person. You treat a person like a dog, it becomes a dog. You

treat a person like a person, it becomes a person.

 

Life is one long recipe. You have to start with some basic ingredients, t=

hen

slowly  add the right ingredients at the right time. Unfortunately, one o=

f

the problems with what is called life is not adding the right ingredient =

at

the right time, or adding the wrong ingredient, or adding too little to t=

oo

much of the right ingredient. And in most cases it takes a lifetime to ge=

t it

right. Some people stop caring about the recipe,  think that they don't h=

ave

to worry about it anymore, and all sorts of other shortcomings. Life can =

be

more delicate than a souffl=E9.

 

Allen Ginsberg told me that he doesn't believe in god or an afterlife,

because he cannot believe in anything he hasn't experienced. He also said

that the term 'beat generation' was just a media creation.

 

that is the end of my philosophy,

so it goes, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:21:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>David Rhaesa wrote:

> 

>> p.s.  I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my

>> family and relatives and whatnot.  But i'm interested, in the event that

>> i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"

>> order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them?  Any

>> suggestions?

> 

>I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them

>up:

> 

>Visions of Gerard

>Dr. Sax

>Maggie Cassidy

>Vanity of Duluoz

>The Town and the City

>On The Road

>Visions of Cody

>Lonesome Traveler

>Book of Blues

>The Subterraneans

>The Book of Dreams

>The Dharma Bums

>The Scripture of the Golden Eternity

>Old Angel Midnight

>Some of the Dharma

>Desolation Angels

>Mexico City Blues

>Tristessa

>Big Sur

>Trip Trap

>Satori in Paris

> 

>Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here!  This

>thread is going to be interesting....

> 

>Jym

 

PIC, too.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:25:19 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cannon Fodder  (was Re: is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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James Donahue wrote:

> 

> On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

> 

> > James Donahue wrote:

> > >

> > > well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a

> > > question:

> > > does beat studies fall into the same issues of

> > > canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by

> > > highlighting only a certain few writers?  (and maybe

> > > the list falls prey to this, as well?)

> > > kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?

> > > and if this is the case, does anyone know why?

> > > jim donahue

> >

> > probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a

> > nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility.  Go Rinaldo Go.

> >

> > david rhaesa

> > salina, Kansas

> >

> do have the html of this website?

> id rather go direct than have to swin through all the

> stuff that would come up on a keyword search.

 

 

i agree, i love the inclusiveness of the rinaldo's approach.

http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:59:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Forthcoming stuff...

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At 11:19 AM 11/22/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>> 

>> >and does anyone know what of jack's unpublished works that the sampas

>> >estate plans on releasing next??????

>> >

>> >cathy

>> 

>> 

>> >

>>  The second volume of Selected Letters has been delayed until January 1999.

>> After that, a third volume of letters and the journals (in 3 volumes) will

>> be released and it is reasonable to think that other works will follow, such

>> as Kerouac's juvenalia works and also other archival material; notebooks,

>> more poems, etc. .... The authorized bio is in the works for a release in a

>> year that will start with a 2...meanwhile, Ellis Amburn has a bio coming out

>> June 1998. Also, Geffen Records has a release for early next year featuring

>> new recordings of Kerouac reading and a song written by him and performed by

>> Tom Waits ("Home I'll Never Be" I believe it is called)and Primus.

>>                                                       The Kerouac Quarterly

>> 

>>   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

>> 

>>      (Almost updated daily for your edification and delight....P.

>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                            Henry David Thoreau

>> 

>> 

> 

> 

> 

>thanks for the info, paul.  i appreciate it

> 

> 

>cathy

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:40:56 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: god vs beat vs truth

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Attila Gyenis wrote:

> Life is one long recipe. You have to start with some basic ingredients, then

> slowly  add the right ingredients at the right time. Unfortunately, one of

> the problems with what is called life is not adding the right ingredient at

> the right time, or adding the wrong ingredient, or adding too little to too

> much of the right ingredient. And in most cases it takes a lifetime to get it

> right. Some people stop caring about the recipe,  think that they don't have

> to worry about it anymore, and all sorts of other shortcomings. Life can be

> more delicate than a souffli.

> 

> 

> that is the end of my philosophy,

> so it goes, Attila

 

 

Gee, Attila, I LIKE that, and I like your name, Attila Gyenis, too.

I think you've summed it up really well, and there's nothing I can add

that will enhance it... so, bon apetite!

s

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:32:30 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Still Life with Women by La Loca

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971122205919.006a79f4@pop.pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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La Loca

 

Still Life with Women

 

"The Square Dance" above the four-poster

was your first. The four sisters,

dos a dos, giddy as the fiddler's lick,

before their lives happened.

You've got them childless

and kidding, eyes and hair

the family chestnut.

 

What's unseen is you, the oldest,

taller than a man, buck-toothed,

double left-footed, hulking

by the punch, painting.

 

Behind you is mother,

small and not all there,

one after another cracking

pistachios, retinas like departed

souls: a typical widow.

She beat her girls with switches

pulled from lenient firs.

Her fat, child-bearing hands

shell the favors to the last

and then fold, stub to stub,

across a stomach cultivated

from marchpane and babies.

She feels brown-haired again.

Under a floor-length hoop

her foot, once swept from ballrooms

by a towering groom, sleeps.

 

A le main left and your sisters skip

to Cincinnati with their callers.

"Good Night Ladies," and mother stands

you at her back. Help me, is the phrase.

Starting at the small, you undo

the places she can't reach.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:54:54 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

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Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> 

> I have some trouble seeing your more positive reading of the passage. I

> see it once again as a very tired Kerouac immersed in his own sorrow.

> DC

 

Diane,

 

your whole post is wonderful (as usual) and i'll try to get to the rest

of it on a day when i haven't used up so many of my ten posts.  but

since you and marie didn't see where i was really coming from on this

reading, i thought i'd take a moment to try and clarify.

 

i'm not sure that it is a positive reading per se, as much as an absurd

reading with perhaps a positive lesson.  i'll try to be a bit clearer.

 

the first positive i feel is the positiveness of identification.  i

definitely felt the "been there, done that and survived it" feeling

while reading those words.  certainly, the style in which JK describes

it is beyond me, but i definitely got the sense of -- yeah i've seen

life that dark before.  fairly similar to the feeling i get when

listening to something like Hank Williams' "I'm So Lonesome I Could

Cry", it is absurd to find happiness in perhaps the saddest song ever

written, but it is there for me in knowing that some one has felt depths

of loneliness that when i feel them it seems i am the only one who could

ever have been there and done that.  it is the idenitification with

another's suffering as both showing that your suffering is real, but

also that your suffering might not be the worst thing anyone has ever

felt emotionally.  in the passage from JK, it is not just a loneliness,

but an anger at the alien-ness of feeling like one doesn't belong to the

human race.  But in reading the words and identifying with them and the

feelings behind them, I know that there are people in the human race who

have been where i've been and know the paths to some extent that i'm on.

 

another level is the absurdity that this is the worst it could be.  i

think what brought the most laughter to me was when the viciousness of

the emotions became associated with automobiles.  not only is the irony

of it amazing as marie pointed out, but the absurdity of blaming it all

on a car just had me in stitches.  and in a similar way as above, i find

myself flashing back on situations in which emotional depths in my life

become connected to particular symbols and those things or people can

hardly deserve to be the scapegoat of the emotions.  I recall not so

long ago a 35 cents pair of cutoffs became the focus of an anger that

had lasted decades.  Absurd.  Just as in the automobile blaming.

 

And the fact that JK is able to write his way out of the anger is

probably the most beautifully positive experience of it.  Not only does

the author let you know these feelings are/were experienced, but also in

the fact that you are reading the words the author has found a creative

means to survive and move past the moments of those emotions.  Certainly

it may be a fleeting moment and emotions come back and haunt, but the

possibility of escaping and finding happiness of some sort in our

natural gifts provides some positive feelings (and perhaps this reading

is aided by the hints provided that the emotion does not last through

the entire book in another post on this thread).

 

And so it is a twisting.  Probably not a conventional reading at all --

definitely absurd -- but sometimes the absurd reading provides some

breakthroughs that the conventional does not.

 

of course, this is still twisted, but probably a different twistedness

than the reading -- of course i promised that my third reading would be

completely different from the second.

 

so - i hope that others comment on the rest of your post and if not i'll

try to give it more attention in the coming days.

 

and thanks marie for providing more to look at.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:33:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: opening and closing books duluoz

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>_____

>the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,

>who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man he

>had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before

>becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning

>of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.

>having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very

>successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous

>breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and

>humanity and spirituality.

>mc

>   I just want to ask, how well did you know Stella Kerouac? Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:35:34 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening and closing books duluoz

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ya got me there, paul! the admonition i have given others, hoisted by my own

petard, so to speak, going out of text to sweeping generalization.

but i stand by the rest of my points and quotes from the text, itself, and

my  own love/hate relationship to  this book, (as opposed to author - yet

snuck in the back door with cheap shot toward stella) and thankyou david

o'kansas for once again bringing your own wonderful sense of the absurd to

the novel as well. i'll take under advisement

 

and yes, dave: i caught the irony too. but also the darkness and no light at

the end of the tunnel of the book.

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

> >_____

> >the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,

> >who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man he

> >had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before

> >becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning

> >of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.

> >having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very

> >successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous

> >breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and

> >humanity and spirituality.

> >mc

> >   I just want to ask, how well did you know Stella Kerouac? Paul. . .

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:55:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend

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Preston Whaley mentioned that I left "Pic" out of the Duluoz Legend.  This

was not an accident.  I frankly don't see how it fits in, as there is no

appearance by Jack himself, in character or not.  I seem to recall that at

one point Jack intended the main character to meet up with Sal and Dean,

but that Memere encouraged him to edit that part out before publication.

Of course, it has been years since I read "Pic," so maybe my memory is

faulty on this.  Anyone?

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:58:08 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>Preston Whaley mentioned that I left "Pic" out of the Duluoz Legend.  This

>was not an accident.  I frankly don't see how it fits in, as there is no

>appearance by Jack himself, in character or not.  I seem to recall that at

>one point Jack intended the main character to meet up with Sal and Dean,

>but that Memere encouraged him to edit that part out before publication.

>Of course, it has been years since I read "Pic," so maybe my memory is

>faulty on this.  Anyone?

> 

>Jym

 

yes, I think neither Pic nor Town and City should be in the Duluoz Legend.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:02:31 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend

Mime-Version: 1.0

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I think that Lonesome Traveller has to be divuded up into its' consituent

stories.  Some take place earlier and some later.  For example the story

about the gun and how Duluoz carefully chose not to bring it to his friend

is earlier (around On the Road time) than October in the Railroad Earth

which would be early fifities after Visions of Cody but pre-Subterraneans.

 

 

 

Jym's original order

>>Visions of Gerard

>>Dr. Sax

>>Maggie Cassidy

>>Vanity of Duluoz

>>The Town and the City

>>On The Road

>>Visions of Cody

>>Lonesome Traveler

>>Book of Blues

>>The Subterraneans

>>The Book of Dreams

>>The Dharma Bums

>>The Scripture of the Golden Eternity

>>Old Angel Midnight

>>Some of the Dharma

>>Desolation Angels

>>Mexico City Blues

>>Tristessa

>>Big Sur

>>Trip Trap

>>Satori in Paris

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:24:26 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> I think neither Pic nor Town and City should be in the Duluoz Legend.

 

While I agree re: "Pic," I must respectfully demur re: "Town and the City."

 Certainly "Town" is much more fictionalized than most of Jack's other

books, but if you look at the Martin brothers as essentially various

aspects of Jack's personality split into separate characters, plus of

course the inclusion of Ginsberg, Burroughs, and company as characters in

the City section, one can see how this book fits into the Legend.

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:46:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: opening and closing books duluoz

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It is this savage plight that plagues most biographies, the ability of the

"biographer" to capture the mind/thought of the person in question about who

he or she was thinking or their particular motive in any situation. Stella

Kerouac was one of the few supporters of Jack's work in Lowell and one of

the few women who he really opened up to what he was thinking both

personally and artistically. Check out the few letters in Selected Letters

for example....Sincerely, Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:47:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 03:02 PM 11/22/97 -0800, you wrote:

>I think that Lonesome Traveller has to be divuded up into its' consituent

>stories.  Some take place earlier and some later.  For example the story

>about the gun and how Duluoz carefully chose not to bring it to his friend

>is earlier (around On the Road time) than October in the Railroad Earth

>which would be early fifities after Visions of Cody but pre-Subterraneans.

> 

> 

> 

>Jym's original order

>>>Visions of Gerard

>>>Dr. Sax

>>>Maggie Cassidy

>>>Vanity of Duluoz

>>>The Town and the City

>>>On The Road

>>>Visions of Cody

>>>Lonesome Traveler

>>>Book of Blues

>>>The Subterraneans

>>>The Book of Dreams

>>>The Dharma Bums

>>>The Scripture of the Golden Eternity

>>>Old Angel Midnight

>>>Some of the Dharma

>>>Desolation Angels

>>>Mexico City Blues

>>>Tristessa

>>>Big Sur

>>>Trip Trap

>>>Satori in Paris

> 

Don't forget the short but nonetheless effective piece, Home At Christmas.

Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:10:28 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

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> RACE wrote:

 

>  it is the idenitification with

> another's suffering as both showing that your suffering is real, but

> also that your suffering might not be the worst thing anyone has ever

> felt emotionally.  in the passage from JK, it is not just a loneliness,

> but an anger at the alien-ness of feeling like one doesn't belong to

> the

> human race.  But in reading the words and identifying with them and the

> feelings behind them, I know that there are people in the human race

> who

> have been where i've been and know the paths to some extent that i'm

> on.

 

I can understand your sense of the positive here, to know that someone

else has been on the same paths and thought the same things.  But it is

your sense of positiveness as a reader rather than that Jack was making a

positive statement.

 

> another level is the absurdity that this is the worst it could be.  i

> think what brought the most laughter to me was when the viciousness of

> the emotions became associated with automobiles.  not only is the irony

> of it amazing as marie pointed out, but the absurdity of blaming it all

> on a car just had me in stitches.  and in a similar way as above, i

> find

> myself flashing back on situations in which emotional depths in my life

> become connected to particular symbols and those things or people can

> hardly deserve to be the scapegoat of the emotions.  I recall not so

> long ago a 35 cents pair of cutoffs became the focus of an anger that

> had lasted decades.  Absurd.  Just as in the automobile blaming.

Now here I recognize and identify with your sense of the "absurdity" of

it all.  However, to go back to the original passage that Marie posted, I

didn't feel his sense of anger was about the automobile but it was about

the fact the people no longer have a sense of destination.  Time has

changed the human race but Jack has not changed with it, and he doesn't

see the changes as positive.  He identified with the people that were

walking fast toward something, perhaps even driving fast toward

something.  But now the strolling from the automobile parking lot has no

goal.  People aren't doing what he wrote about in On the Road, where the

automobile was simply a new mechanism for a more spiritual striving.  The

automobile is simply a convenience.  But he is not angry at the

automobile but at the emptiness of what it means to be human.

 

> And the fact that JK is able to write his way out of the anger is

> probably the most beautifully positive experience of it.  Not only does

> the author let you know these feelings are/were experienced, but also

> in

> the fact that you are reading the words the author has found a creative

> means to survive and move past the moments of those emotions.

> Certainly

> it may be a fleeting moment and emotions come back and haunt, but the

> possibility of escaping and finding happiness of some sort in our

> natural gifts provides some positive feelings (and perhaps this reading

> is aided by the hints provided that the emotion does not last through

> the entire book in another post on this thread).

 

I don't know yet what happens by the end of the book as I have never read

it completely through.  But based on his life and his other books it's

hard to see the positive aspect of the writer working out his anger by

writing about it.  I don't think he worked out his own anger at all, I

think it was there in every drink he took to deal with it right to the

end of his life.  The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote

to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his

dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he

personally didn't make the leap.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:36:45 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening and closing books duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> pg 262-3

> "in fact i began to behink myself in that hospital. i began to

> understand that the city intellectuals of the world were divorced from

> the folkbody blood of the land and were just rotless fools, to

> permissable fools, who really didn't know how to go on living. I began

> to get a new vision of  my own of a truer darkness which just

> overshadowed all this overlaid mental garbage of 'existentialism' 'and

> hipsterism' and bourgeois decadence' and whatever names you want to

> give

> it.

> in the purity of my hospital bed, weeks on end, i, staring at the dim

> ceiling while the poor men snored, saw that life is a brute creation,

> beautiful and cruel, that when you see a springtime bud covered with

> raindew, how can you believe it's beautiful when you know the moisture

> is just there to encourage the bud to flower out just so's it can fall

> off sere dead dry in the fall? all the contemporary LSD acid heads (if

> 1967) see the cruel beauty of the brute creation just by closing their

> eyes: i've seen it too since: a maniacal mandala circle all mosaic and

> dense with millions of cruel things and beautiful scenes goin on, like

> say, swiftly on one side i saw one night a choirmaster of some sort in

> 'heaven' slowly going Ooowith his mouth in awe at the beauty of what

> they were singing but right next to him is a pig being fed to an

> alligator by cruel attendants on a pier and people walking by

> unconcerned. just an example. Or that horrible mother kali of ancient

> india and its wisdom aeons with all her arms bejeweled, legs and belly

> too, gyrating insanely to eat back thru the only part of her that's not

> jeweled, her yoni or yin, everythings she's given birth to. Mother

> nature giving you birth and eating you back.

> and i say wars and social catastrophes arise from the cruel nature of

> bestial creation, and not from 'society' which after all has good

> intentions or it wouldn't be called 'society' wouold it?

> it is, face it , a mean heartless creation emanated by a God of wrath,

> jehovah, yaweth, no-name, who will pat you kindly on the head and say

> 'now your'e being good' when you pray, but when your're begging for

> mercy anyway say like a soldier hung by one leg from a tree trunk in

> today's Vietnam, when yaweh's really got you out in the back of the

> barn

> even in ordinary natureof fatal illness like my pa's then, he wont

> (sic)

> listen, he will whack away at your lil behind with the long stick of

> what they call 'original sin' in the theological christian dogmatic

> sects but what i call 'the original sacrifice.'

> that's not even worse, for god's sake , than watching your own human

> father pop die in real life when you really realize 'father, father,

> why

> has thou forsaken me?' for real, the man who gae you hopeful birth is

> copping out right before your eyes and leaves you flat with the whole

> problem and burden (your self) of his own foolishness in ever believing

> that 'life' was worth anything what it smells like down in the bellevue

> morgue when i had to identify franz'a body. your human father sits

> there

> in death before you almost satisfied. that's what's so sad and horrible

> about the 'god is dead' movement in contemporary religion, it's the

> most

> tearful and forlorn phiosophical idea of all time."

> _____

> the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,

> who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man

> he

> had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before

> becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning

> of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.

> having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very

> successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous

> breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and

> humanity and spirituality.

> mc

 

Marie, thanks a lot for posting more passages.  I agree with your

assessment of "a dark negation." What is also interesting in Kerouac is

that he so often grasps onto the despair of life in connection with

death.  Like in the above passage, he is so pained by the

death-separation of his own father.  And then he looks at his own death,

and concludes that there is really no point to doing anything because we

are all going to die.  And to me, that is almost the opposite of the way

he describes the meaning of beat, to mean "beatific" not beaten.  In the

above passage he is beaten, when he writes stuff like "his own

foolishness in ever believing that life was worth anything."  The other

conclusion could and should be that life is worth something because it

ends in death.  You should live now because you are going to die.  Why

give up on life before death takes you.  Also, if one is going to grab

onto the concept of original sin, a wrathful God, and the "Why or why

hast thou forsaken me attitude?," why not also grab onto the more

positive points of Catholicism?  His own deep self-hatred seemed to

negate the positive points in almost everything.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:24:28 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

In-Reply-To:  Message of Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:00:41 +0000 from

              <country@SOVER.NET>

 

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:00:41 +0000 Marie Countryman said:

>wrote _the medium is the message_ has great short cameo role in annie hall.

> 

>RACE --- wrote:

> 

>> Marie Countryman wrote:

>> > Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

>> > people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

>> > sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

>> > mc

>> 

>> anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

>> here?  i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to

>> check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough

>> to the other side of writer's block>

>> 

>> david rhaesa

>> salina, Kansas

 

Kerouac may have read "The Mechanical Bride" (1951).  I think he would have bee

n in sympathy with McLuhan's views on the "American Mama's Boy."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:53:09 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The big McLuhan book is Understanding Media, but Marshall

was a mirky explainer of his own stuff, which isn't about beats

anyway, but about media.  His insight was that the FORM of the

medium was more important than the content that was on it.  He

pointed out that certain types of people were more fit to perform

in one media than in another. Certain types of content were more

suitable for new media like Television, than other kinds of

content.  He made other kinds of assertions like that, but his

books are hard to read.  I read  in the NYTimes Book

Review in the last week, a review of a book that explains

McLuhan better than the now-dead media maven did himself.  I'll

dig it out for you if you're interested.

 

Mike Rice

 

At 10:14 AM 11/22/97 -0800, you wrote:

>>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>>> 

>>> >Marie Countryman wrote:

>>> >> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

>>> >> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

>>> >> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

>>> >> mc

>>> >

>>> >anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

>>> >here?

>>> 

>>> Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.

>> 

>>well obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg

>>Galaxy - i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not

>>certain).  I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading lists for Jack that

>>we'd been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the

>>basic themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really

>>frustrate a natural born writer.

>> 

> 

>You think a good boy like Jack wasn't reading Catholic World?

> 

>I am sure he was familiar with McCluhan fro awhile from mcCluhans writings

>about Finnegans wake.

> 

>(Which McCluhan book is specifically referred to in the opening allusion in

>Vanity of Duluoz (if any partiular one) --I don't know).

> 

> 

>>david rhaesa

>>salina, Kansas

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:49:42 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: A little too much of the Dharma

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

wet toilet paper does the trick just fine.

 

> "The President of the United States, the big ministers of state, the great

> bishops and shmishops and big shots everywhere, down to the lowest factory

> worker with all his fierce pride, movie stars, executives and great engineers

> and presidents of law firms with silk shirts and neckties and great expensive

> traveling cases in which they place these various expensive English imported

> hair brushes and shaving gear and pomades and perfumes are all walking around

> with dirty azzoles! All you gotta do is simply wash yourself with soap and

> water! it hasnt occurred to anybody in America at all! it's one of the

> funniest things I've ever heard of! dont you think it's marvelous that we're

> being called filthy unwashed beatnikes but we're the only ones walking around

> with clean azzoles?" [sic all punctuation/capitalization]

> 

> In only slight contrast, perfectly appropriate to a Zen master, Lin-Chi says:

> 

> "In Buddhism there is no place for using effort. Just be ordinary and nothing

> special. Eat your food, move your bowels, pass water, and when you're tired

> go and lie down again. The ignorant will laugh at me, but the wise will

> understand.

> 

> 

> I always am reminded how deep was Jack's search (no pun) for spirituality

> when I read the many, many things he wrote about the care and feeding of his

> body while obeying his equally strong compulsion for self-destruction.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 20:28:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Preston Whaley mentioned that I left "Pic" out of the Duluoz Legend.  This

>was not an accident.  I frankly don't see how it fits in, as there is no

>appearance by Jack himself, in character or not.  I seem to recall that at

>one point Jack intended the main character to meet up with Sal and Dean,

>but that Memere encouraged him to edit that part out before publication.

>Of course, it has been years since I read "Pic," so maybe my memory is

>faulty on this.  Anyone?

> 

>Jym

 

Jym,

 

thankyou for stating your reasons.  i typed way too soon. Haven't read Pic.

I'm (em)bare-assed.  Is Pic written first person?  JK once wrote in OR

he'd wished he were a negro.  Since the book was begun in '51, I wonder if

there is a vicarious dimension to it?  I'll have to read-see.

 

Preston

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:00:26 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening and closing books duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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have done so since yr last post. again, thanks paul.

mc

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

> It is this savage plight that plagues most biographies, the ability of the

> "biographer" to capture the mind/thought of the person in question about who

> he or she was thinking or their particular motive in any situation. Stella

> Kerouac was one of the few supporters of Jack's work in Lowell and one of

> the few women who he really opened up to what he was thinking both

> personally and artistically. Check out the few letters in Selected Letters

> for example....Sincerely, Paul...

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:11:51 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      beat-lives!!!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

even when caught with foot in mouth (hat off to paul) i am feeling

wonderful about beat-l again! so glad that the duluoz has prompted so

many thoughtful posts!

will finish my  re-ead of big sur, am also thinking that dharma bums

makes a good contrast and am beginning to re-read it as well. many

thanks to all who responded! beat-l lives!

(and still am curious re: wsb and letters to ginsberg, interzone, naked

lunch: if the routines were separate, i still wonder if their seeds are

not to be found in the letters- wsb specialists, any takers?

thanks for a great, thought provoking day.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:30:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      SOTD @ St.Marks

In-Reply-To:  <199711181828.KAA17029@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Is anyone going to the Some of the Dharma reading at St.Mark's on December

3rd? Let me know, I would love to meet people from the list. Thanks.

~Nancy

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:56:26 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mike Rice wrote:

> 

> The big McLuhan book is Understanding Media, but Marshall

> was a mirky explainer of his own stuff, which isn't about beats

> anyway, but about media.  His insight was that the FORM of the

> medium was more important than the content that was on it.  He

> pointed out that certain types of people were more fit to perform

> in one media than in another. Certain types of content were more

> suitable for new media like Television, than other kinds of

> content.  He made other kinds of assertions like that, but his

> books are hard to read.  I read  in the NYTimes Book

> Review in the last week, a review of a book that explains

> McLuhan better than the now-dead media maven did himself.  I'll

> dig it out for you if you're interested.

> 

> Mike Rice

> 

 

Mike, thanks for that explanation... You know, I tried and TRIED to

"get" that book, but it just seemed like gobbledygook when I read it,

back in '73.  Of course, I was always stoned back then, but I like your

explanation better...

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:50:54 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: beat-lives!!!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> even when caught with foot in mouth (hat off to paul) i am feeling

> wonderful about beat-l again! so glad that the duluoz has prompted so

> many thoughtful posts!

> will finish my  re-ead of big sur, am also thinking that dharma bums

> makes a good contrast and am beginning to re-read it as well. many

> thanks to all who responded! beat-l lives!

> (and still am curious re: wsb and letters to ginsberg, interzone, naked

> lunch: if the routines were separate, i still wonder if their seeds are

> not to be found in the letters- wsb specialists, any takers?

> thanks for a great, thought provoking day.

> mc

 

beat-l has risen indeed.

 

i think there are some obvious connections between WSB letters and

writings.  i recall specifically due to geography a routine in one of

the books about the connection with the President.  In the letters the

same appears but the President is explicitly my neighbor to the east --

Eisenhower.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:52:14 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Pic

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Preston Whaley wrote:

 

> Is Pic written first person?  JK once wrote in OR

> he'd wished he were a negro.  Since the book was begun in '51, I wonder

if

> there is a vicarious dimension to it?  I'll have to read-see.

 

Yes, in the persona of a ten year old black boy from the south.

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:20:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Anthony Celentano <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

 

I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and atheism

and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a

discussion about actual Beat literature.  I mean, I could discuss the

pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all

this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack Kerouac

was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been

amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media.  I think

it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any

vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions

about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured

something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into

that magic.  I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I

contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats?  Thanks, and

perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm

talking about,

 

Anthony

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:27:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

In-Reply-To:  <971122150508_1247905025@mrin51.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> I think if you look closely you will see that the the Gap ad is not the same

> photo as on Minor Characters by Joyce Johnson. Same roll of film, and it is

> possible that Joyce was airbrushed out in the the gap photo, but different

> photos.

 

What I know is from Joyce's mouth, and that's the same picture she cites.

There was quite a bit of other work done to it to play up certain parts of

the image over others, sharpen it, etc.  The original, I seem to remember,

was much darker and a little duller, color too maybe.  Probably switched

to black and white for mood and ease of editing, sharpness, etc.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:11:48 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      (FWD) Comparative Religions

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971122205919.006a79f4@pop.pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:25:58 -0400 (EDT)

>From: YokoMofo@aol.com

>Subject: Comparative Religions

> 

>A short guide to comparative religions

> 

> Taoism  - Shit happens.

> 

> Confucism - Confucius say, "Shit happens."

> 

> Islamism - If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.

> 

> Buddhism - If shit happens, it isn't really shit.

> 

> Roman Catholicism - Shit happens because you are bad.

> 

> Calvinism - Shit happens becuase you don't work hard enough.

> 

> Judaism - Why does this shit always happen to us?

> 

> Lutheranism - If shit happens, have fiath, and it will stop happening.

> 

> Presybterianism - If shit has to happen, let it happen to someone else.

> 

> Zen - What is shit?

> 

> Jesuitism - If shit happens and nobody hears it, did it really make a sound?

> 

> Christian Science - If shit happesn, don't worry; it will go away on its

>own.

> 

> Hedonism - When shit happens, enjoy it.

> 

> Seventh Day Adventism - Shit happens every day but Saturday.

> 

> Hare Krishna - Shit happens.  Rama, rama, ohm, ohm.

> 

> Kastafarianism - Let's smoke this shit.

> 

> Hinduism - This shit happened before

> 

> Mormonism - This shit happened before, and it's going to happen again.

> 

> Atheism - Shit doesn't happen.

> 

> Agnosticism - Maybe shit happens, and maybe it doesn't

> 

> Stoicism - So shit happens Big deal.  I can take it!!!

> 

> 

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 06:56:14 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Corso best?  (was Re: is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Anthony Celentano wrote:

> 

> I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and atheism

> and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a

> discussion about actual Beat literature.  I mean, I could discuss the

> pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all

> this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack Kerouac

> was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been

> amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media.  I think

> it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any

> vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions

> about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured

> something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into

> that magic.  I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I

> contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats?  Thanks, and

> perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm

> talking about,

> 

> Anthony

 

what your talking about writing sounds wonderful.  i hope to learn tons

from your posts.  I especially like the idea of someone big into Corso

posting stuff.  I'm still very weak in his department.  I got MineField

on my last trip to Denver and have read some of it but not enough.

 

i don't know whether i'll agree with you on him being the best poet, but

i'll certainly enjoy the posts.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 07:11:18 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane Carter wrote:

>  The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote

> to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his

> dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he

> personally didn't make the leap.

> DC

 

This reader-based orientation is probably what i'm looking at more in my

initial post.  I think it is a little more than that.  It is the reader

meeting the author finding points of identification and then being able

to see from the distance of time and the medium the pathway around the

anger.  Without JK's lovely accounting of these kinds of feelings, it

might be easy to fall into the same traps.  At least for me :)

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 06:49:33 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I like your point here, David

 

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 5:12 AM

Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz

 

 

>Diane Carter wrote:

>>  The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote

>> to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his

>> dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he

>> personally didn't make the leap.

>> DC

> 

>This reader-based orientation is probably what i'm looking at more in my

>initial post.  I think it is a little more than that.  It is the reader

>meeting the author finding points of identification and then being able

>to see from the distance of time and the medium the pathway around the

>anger.  Without JK's lovely accounting of these kinds of feelings, it

>might be easy to fall into the same traps.  At least for me :)

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:56:04 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Corso best?  (was Re: is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

welcome aboard, anthony!

glad to have another person interested in discussing the beats and literature.

 i'm

very fond of corso, _love elegaic feelings american_,and also the pranksterish

role he so often played among the crowd. there is a video (i'll get this

 backward

i know) called fried shoes and something else-- beats at naropa, in which AG and

corso and others(gap in memory) which is much like a 'home movie' : beat poets

hang out at naropa, kidding around, reading bits and pieces, and then all go out

to train tracks to demonstrate against nuclear material being sent (oh boy, no

memory this morning but i'll trudge on and hope someone clarifies this for me -

irony would be that you've already seen it, anthony- any way, corso reads BOMB.

 i

don't know if he is best poet, but sure is a very beat beat. (in beautific

 sense)

now i'll muddle myself outta here. keep them posts and questions coming

mc

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

> Anthony Celentano wrote:

> >

> > I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and

 atheism

> > and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a

> > discussion about actual Beat literature.  I mean, I could discuss the

> > pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all

> > this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack

 Kerouac

> > was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been

> > amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media.  I think

> > it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any

> > vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions

> > about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured

> > something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into

> > that magic.  I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I

> > contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats?  Thanks, and

> > perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm

> > talking about,

> >

> > Anthony

> 

> what your talking about writing sounds wonderful.  i hope to learn tons

> from your posts.  I especially like the idea of someone big into Corso

> posting stuff.  I'm still very weak in his department.  I got MineField

> on my last trip to Denver and have read some of it but not enough.

> 

> i don't know whether i'll agree with you on him being the best poet, but

> i'll certainly enjoy the posts.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:28:54 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

> I like your point here, David

> 

> leon

 

thanks.  it sure is taking me a lot of posts to try and make sense of

myself <grin>.....after re-reading my posts on this thread, i think that

they made the most sense to me in reading this one first and then going

back the other stuff made more sense to me.

 

meeting the author (and characters as well) is a big part of any reading

experience for me.  i haven't quite grasped what the experience of

reading is supposed to be about when it doesn't include that.

 

david

> -----Original Message-----

> From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 5:12 AM

> Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz

> 

> >Diane Carter wrote:

> >>  The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote

> >> to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his

> >> dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he

> >> personally didn't make the leap.

> >> DC

> >

> >This reader-based orientation is probably what i'm looking at more in my

> >initial post.  I think it is a little more than that.  It is the reader

> >meeting the author finding points of identification and then being able

> >to see from the distance of time and the medium the pathway around the

> >anger.  Without JK's lovely accounting of these kinds of feelings, it

> >might be easy to fall into the same traps.  At least for me :)

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >salina, Kansas

> >.-

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:32:38 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      a poem by Carol Berge.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        OF ROOTS AND SOURCES                    by Carol Berge

 

        (for d. levertov)

 

        as when the person's bones and thoughts

        show like branches, through the skin,

        through the years, overlaid in muted or

        fern tracery. or the voice remembered

        when the page is read. it is the sense

        of the thing to come, when discovering

        this face that is not new, after all:

        the idea opposite you which agrees

        with these definitions you have become.

        under spruce, the needles fall and fall,

        the new in patterns resembling letters,

        the past forming their base or the way

        through which the fine sheets climb.

        it is those moving near you, to remind

        of roots and sources, of your own leaf.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:46:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      big surLiSizeD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was

about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go=

 in

and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing

naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or=

 so

had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in =

its

found state.=20

 

On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking abou=

t a

girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and th=

at

she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD someday=

,"

because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except fo=

r

that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone crazy=

 and

had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description of =

his

legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my d=

ad

said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think you

are."

 

But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenever=

 I

could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had

anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and crash=

ing

into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his writi=

ng,

and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from

psychedelics).

 

Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of

friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so, =

but

it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of acid =

you

don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in a

white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in to =

talk

to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I w=

as

never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whatever =

I'd

known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.

 

After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out c=

ouch

at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my

sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down =

the

sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If yo=

u'll

just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, =

I

promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asleep=

,

although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house pac=

ed

through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whew.=

..

shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to adm=

it

what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like talki=

ng

about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.

 

It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and went=

 to

church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscate =

that

bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with u=

s. I

was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. Hel=

l, I

didn't need to.

 

So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's word=

s:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----

------------------------------

And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people c=

an

be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Garden

once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "Ther=

e's

a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind tha=

t

hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant expl=

ain

it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical paran=

oia

they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the

universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi wh=

o

finally had to have a lobotomy=97Which sets me thinking how nice to cut a=

way

therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING!.=

..

 

Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----

-----------

...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for

always, thank you"=97I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come over=

 me

for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on

emptiness and all of a  sudden the Cross is manifested to me=97My eyes fi=

ll

with tears=97"We'll all be saved=97I wont even tell Dave Wain about it, I=

 wont go

wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough=97now I can

sleep."

 

As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of t=

he

required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so

accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some

chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had go=

t

hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was alw=

ays

eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.

 

But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only unl=

ock

what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Book =

of

Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal because

they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved me

though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jack =

up,

but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state, n=

ot

really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly dea=

th

than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:03:32 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD

 

that's an amazing story.  and yeah, i think you hit it right on the head, man,

that horrible place of knowing and fearing the knowing.  knowing you can't go

back, frightened to go forward, not sure if there is a forward.  scared to

live and scared to die.  like Joyce's "general paralysis of the insane"...

only magnified by the horrors of all the demons in one's head...

 

sherri

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of You_Be Fine

Sent:   Sunday, November 23, 1997 1:46 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        big surLiSizeD

 

There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was

about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go=

 in

and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing

naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or=

 so

had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in =

its

found state.=20

 

On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking abou=

t a

girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and th=

at

she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD someday=

,"

because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except fo=

r

that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone crazy=

 and

had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description of =

his

legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my d=

ad

said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think you

are."

 

But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenever=

 I

could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had

anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and crash=

ing

into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his writi=

ng,

and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from

psychedelics).

 

Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of

friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so, =

but

it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of acid =

you

don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in a

white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in to =

talk

to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I w=

as

never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whatever =

I'd

known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.

 

After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out c=

ouch

at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my

sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down =

the

sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If yo=

u'll

just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, =

I

promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asleep=

,

although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house pac=

ed

through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whew.=

..

shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to adm=

it

what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like talki=

ng

about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.

 

It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and went=

 to

church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscate =

that

bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with u=

s. I

was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. Hel=

l, I

didn't need to.

 

So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's word=

s:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----

------------------------------

And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people c=

an

be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Garden

once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "Ther=

e's

a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind tha=

t

hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant expl=

ain

it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical paran=

oia

they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the

universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi wh=

o

finally had to have a lobotomy=97Which sets me thinking how nice to cut a=

way

therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING!.=

..

 

Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----

-----------

...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for

always, thank you"=97I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come over=

 me

for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on

emptiness and all of a  sudden the Cross is manifested to me=97My eyes fi=

ll

with tears=97"We'll all be saved=97I wont even tell Dave Wain about it, I=

 wont go

wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough=97now I can

sleep."

 

As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of t=

he

required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so

accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some

chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had go=

t

hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was alw=

ays

eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.

 

But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only unl=

ock

what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Book =

of

Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal because

they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved me

though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jack =

up,

but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state, n=

ot

really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly dea=

th

than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:10:25 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

hello

from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in

a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. but you did have

a nice theory about jack's catalyst, and excellent insight. you can

check hyperreal, though. they always have the staight dope <g>

randall

 

> There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was

> about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go in

> and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing

> naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or so

> had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in its

> found state.

> 

> On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking about a

> girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and that

> she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD someday,"

> because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except for

> that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone crazy and

> had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description of his

> legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my dad

> said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think you

> are."

> 

> But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenever I

> could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had

> anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and crashing

> into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his writing,

> and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from

> psychedelics).

> 

> Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of

> friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so, but

> it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of acid you

> don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in a

> white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in to talk

> to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I was

> never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whatever I'd

> known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.

> 

> After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out couch

> at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my

> sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down the

> sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If you'll

> just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, I

> promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asleep,

> although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house paced

> through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whew...

> shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to admit

> what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like talking

> about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.

> 

> It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and went to

> church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscate that

> bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with us. I

> was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. Hell, I

> didn't need to.

> 

> So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's words:

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> ------------------------------

> And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people can

> be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Garden

> once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "There's

> a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind that

> hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant explain

> it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical paranoia

> they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the

> universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi who

> finally had to have a lobotomy-Which sets me thinking how nice to cut away

> therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING!...

> 

> Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> -----------

> ...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for

> always, thank you"-I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come over me

> for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on

> emptiness and all of a  sudden the Cross is manifested to me-My eyes fill

> with tears-"We'll all be saved-I wont even tell Dave Wain about it, I wont go

> wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough-now I can

> sleep."

> 

> As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of the

> required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so

> accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some

> chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had got

> hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was always

> eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.

> 

> But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only unlock

> what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Book of

> Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal because

> they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved me

> though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jack up,

> but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state, not

> really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly death

> than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:37:04 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

randy royal wrote:

> 

> hello

> from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in

> a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. but you did have

> a nice theory about jack's catalyst, and excellent insight. you can

> check hyperreal, though. they always have the staight dope <g>

> randall

> 

> > There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was

> > about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go in

> > and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing

> > naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or so

> > had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in its

> > found state.

 

rye egot dates back much further than this.  it is supposedly something

used in religious ritual in the ancient greek mystery religions.

according to some accounts, it was given to Socrates by the Oracle at

Delphi.  such an account of Socrates' initiation provides quite a

different spin on all the writings about him.

 

i wonder how long i need to leave the rye bread out?  :)

 

LSD is a synthesized hallucinogen which has qualities similar to rye

egot or mushrooms.  while the comments that it is all there in one's

mind already and LSD just makes it apparent, my experience is that the

pace at which one experiences it is sped up incredibly.  Some of the

ideas revealed over ten years ago just make sense in real-time.  Other

notions have yet to be revealed.

 

The words I heard Allen Ginbserg use on some video attributing to JK

about LSD that "walking on water wasn't built in a day" is a fairly

accurate assessment in some ways of some of the experiences.  never a

"bad" trip....but always baffling notions at the edges and the edges are

at the level that might not be built in several lifetimes but are pushed

into such a compressed time as to be potentially disabling when the

walking on water wears off.  this is especially the case if one is in a

rush to learn the meaning of any particular visions.

 

also, everyone's brain chemistry is different and so some folks may have

experiences as "odd" without the addition of chemicals which it would

take others huge quantities of chemicals to imitate.  just differences

we all have.

 

just a few notions from a disabled veteran of psychedelics and

psychotropics :)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:52:46 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <347754AE.5C4@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> Diane Carter wrote:

> >

> >

> > I have some trouble seeing your more positive reading of the passage. I

> > see it once again as a very tired Kerouac immersed in his own sorrow.

> > DC

> 

> Diane,

> 

> your whole post is wonderful (as usual) and i'll try to get to the rest

> of it on a day when i haven't used up so many of my ten posts.  but

> since you and marie didn't see where i was really coming from on this

> reading, i thought i'd take a moment to try and clarify.

> 

> i'm not sure that it is a positive reading per se, as much as an absurd

> reading with perhaps a positive lesson.  i'll try to be a bit clearer.

> 

> the first positive i feel is the positiveness of identification.  i

> definitely felt the "been there, done that and survived it" feeling

> while reading those words.  certainly, the style in which JK describes

> it is beyond me, but i definitely got the sense of -- yeah i've seen

> life that dark before.  fairly similar to the feeling i get when

> listening to something like Hank Williams' "I'm So Lonesome I Could

> Cry", it is absurd to find happiness in perhaps the saddest song ever

> written, but it is there for me in knowing that some one has felt depths

> of loneliness that when i feel them it seems i am the only one who could

> ever have been there and done that.  it is the idenitification with

> another's suffering as both showing that your suffering is real, but

> also that your suffering might not be the worst thing anyone has ever

> felt emotionally.  in the passage from JK, it is not just a loneliness,

> but an anger at the alien-ness of feeling like one doesn't belong to the

> human race.  But in reading the words and identifying with them and the

> feelings behind them, I know that there are people in the human race who

> have been where i've been and know the paths to some extent that i'm on.

> 

David,

I agree with you. Kerouac seems to have gotten some sense of relief (or

release) by articulating his Rubaiyat-like disgruntlement with the human

condition. Remember Sal Paradise after seeing _Fidelio_(?) in _On the

Road_: he goes around chirping "What gloom!"

Cordially,

Mike Skau

 >

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:55:32 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

How can I myself offer any analysis of Big Sur after yr incredible

heartfelt post? That was one of the best postings to the list that I've

read in my year or so on beat-l. It's a keeper.

 

Thanks,

 

Adrien

 

You_Be Fine wrote:

>=20

> There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It w=

as

> about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could =

go in

> and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing

> naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s =

or so

> had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical i=

n its

> found state.

>=20

> On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking ab=

out a

> girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and =

that

> she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD somed=

ay,"

> because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except =

for

> that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone cra=

zy and

> had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description o=

f his

> legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my=

 dad

> said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think yo=

u

> are."

>=20

> But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenev=

er I

> could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had

> anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and cra=

shing

> into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his wri=

ting,

> and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from

> psychedelics).

>=20

> Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of

> friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so=

, but

> it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of aci=

d you

> don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in =

a

> white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in t=

o talk

> to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I=

 was

> never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whateve=

r I'd

> known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.

>=20

> After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out=

 couch

> at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my

> sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling dow=

n the

> sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If =

you'll

> just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again=

, I

> promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asle=

ep,

> although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house p=

aced

> through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whe=

w...

> shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to a=

dmit

> what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like tal=

king

> about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.

>=20

> It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and we=

nt to

> church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscat=

e that

> bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with=

 us. I

> was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. H=

ell, I

> didn't need to.

>=20

> So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's wo=

rds:

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-------

> ------------------------------

> And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people=

 can

> be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Gard=

en

> once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "Th=

ere's

> a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind t=

hat

> hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant ex=

plain

> it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical par=

anoia

> they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the

> universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi =

who

> finally had to have a lobotomy=97Which sets me thinking how nice to cut=

 away

> therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING=

!...

>=20

> Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-------

> -----------

> ...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for

> always, thank you"=97I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come ov=

er me

> for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on

> emptiness and all of a  sudden the Cross is manifested to me=97My eyes =

fill

> with tears=97"We'll all be saved=97I wont even tell Dave Wain about it,=

 I wont go

> wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough=97now I ca=

n

> sleep."

>=20

> As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of=

 the

> required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so

> accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some

> chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had =

got

> hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was a=

lways

> eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.

>=20

> But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only u=

nlock

> what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Boo=

k of

> Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal becau=

se

> they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved =

me

> though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jac=

k up,

> but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state,=

 not

> really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly d=

eath

> than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:18:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fwd: big surLiSizeD

 

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj:    Re: big surLiSizeD

Date:    97-11-23 18:12:34 EST

From:    AngelMindz

To:      randyr@southeast.net

 

In a message dated 97-11-23 18:06:00 EST, randy wrote:

 

<< from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in

 a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though.  >>

 

yeah, i think this is true, in terms of isolating the chemical itself. But I

do believe the magazine story (early Sixties notwithstanding) was accurate,

as well, since most chemical substances (including that good old mold,

penicillin) occur naturally somewhere in our ecosystem, not just in a petri

dish. and there are no accidents; just discoveries.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 08:14:52 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      from Vanity of Duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

There's a really interesting passage I found (I don't know the page

number as not having the book I'm reading the selections that are in The

Portable Kerouac) in Book V, where it seems like it might be the first

time that Jack has really looked at his own life in terms of the greater

universe.  This takes place the summer before his sophomore year at

Columbia where he is still playing football and not yet a writer.

 

"One night my cousin Blanche came to the house and sat in the kitchen

talking to Ma among the packed boxes.  I sat on the porch outside and

leaned way back with feet on rail and gazed at the stars for the first

time in my life.  A clear August night, the stars, the Milky Way, the

whole works clear.  I stared and stared till they stared back at me.

Where the hell was I and what was all this?

        I went into the parlour and sat down in my father's old deep easy

chair and fell into the wildest daydream of my life.  This is important

and this is the key to the story, wifey dear:

[I'm leaving out the entire daydream as it is quite long but the gist of

it is in the paragraph below where he is a champion in just about any

activity he undertakes]

        I'm the world's heavyweight boxing champion, the greatest writer,

the world's champ miler, Rose Bowl and (pro-bound with New York Giants

football non pareil) now offered every job on every paper in New York,

and what else? Tennis anyone?

        I woke up from this daydream suddenly realizing that all I had to

do was go back on the porch and look at the stars again, which I did, and

they still just stared at me blankly.

        In other words I suddenly realized that all my ambitions, no

matter how they came out, and of course as you can see fom the preceding

narrative, they came out fairly ordinary, it wouldnt matter anyway in the

intervening space between human breathings and the 'sigh of the happy

stars,' so to speak, to quote Thoreau again.

        It just didn't matter what I did, anytime, anywhere, with anyone;

life is funny like I said.

        I suddenly realized we were all crazy and had nothing to work for

except the next meal and the next good sleep.

        O God in the Heavens, what a fumbling, hard-hanging, goof world

it is, that people actually think they can gain anything from either

this, or that, or thissa, or thatta, and in so doing, corrupt their

sacred graves in the name of sacred-grave corruption."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:08:44 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

david and all:

you'd know better than i thru experience. and with stuff as sticky

like this, i think i'd like to leave it that way.

randy

> ---------------------

> Forwarded message:

> Subj:    Re: big surLiSizeD

> Date:    97-11-23 18:12:34 EST

> From:    AngelMindz

> To:      randyr@southeast.net

> 

> In a message dated 97-11-23 18:06:00 EST, randy wrote:

> 

> << from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in

>  a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though.  >>

> 

> yeah, i think this is true, in terms of isolating the chemical itself. But I

> do believe the magazine story (early Sixties notwithstanding) was accurate,

> as well, since most chemical substances (including that good old mold,

> penicillin) occur naturally somewhere in our ecosystem, not just in a petri

> dish. and there are no accidents; just discoveries.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:36:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD

Comments: To: race@midusa.net

 

Hey Beat-list have any of you tried Toad Venom?

 

T.V.

"I've got a new drug."

Fritz has a new drug.

"Toad venom wanna smoke some?"

"What does it do?"

"Mild high, acid, hash, coke buzz."

"Totally toadular."

Nee deep, Nee deep.

We drive to the beach,

Climb down cliffs.

Fritz loads the pipe,

Flaky wax substance.

Take a hit,

Rolling, ground.

Kids on the cliff shout,

"Hey man, smoke that bud up here dude."

Fritz takes a hit. Now we are both rolling,

I yell back to them,

"TOAD VENOM!!"

Frog high, web brain.

Buddha bug tongue buzz.

Old pond splashes in mind.

Close eyes.

Tune to insects,

Scope, sight, snatch.

Toad Mind, Toad Soul, Wart Love!!

Hallucinaphibians in desert,

Arizona evenings, web foot summer.

Glands in the backs of their necks,

defense against being bit.

Squeeze, pop, juicy, squirt,

On Pyrex dish.

Let it dry over night.

Scrape, scrape.

Fly paper lily pad, LEAP!

Nee deep, Nee deep, Nee Deep.

 

Yrs,

Gary Mex Glazner

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:42:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>

Subject:      Big Sur / LSD

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

LSD was discovered in 1938 in a Sandoz Lab in Basil Switzerland, the 25th in

a series of ergot derivatives, thus the name LSD25.  Dr Hofman, the

scientist who discovered it, shelfed it until 1943, when shortly after the

Manhatten Project's first nuclear chain reaction, he returned to it and

accidently absorbed some through his fingertips.  Some suggest the two

events were cosmiclly linked.

 

The last documented case of rye ergot poisoning, sometimes referred to as St

Anthony's Fire, occured in Pont-Saint-Esprit, France in 1951.  Some deaths

did occur.

 

The ancient greeks had an ergot laced drink called Kykeon that they used in

an annual pagan ritual which I believe was called the "Elusinian Mysteries."

 

D.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:59:05 GMT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Christopher M. Dumond" <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Why am I prolonging this?

I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes with the

audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"

I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.

 

Just my two cents

 

Chris

"I just keep on running faster, chasing the happily I am ever after..."

~Lyle Lovett

Visit Chris's Page at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2124

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:46:52 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kris Kurrus <kurrus@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>

Subject:      Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD

In-Reply-To:  <971123181851_207236322@mrin45.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:18 PM 11/23/97 +0000, you wrote:

>---------------------

>Forwarded message:

>Subj:    Re: big surLiSizeD

>Date:    97-11-23 18:12:34 EST

>From:    AngelMindz

>To:      randyr@southeast.net

> 

>In a message dated 97-11-23 18:06:00 EST, randy wrote:

> 

><< from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in

> a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though.  >>

> 

>yeah, i think this is true, in terms of isolating the chemical itself. But I

>do believe the magazine story (early Sixties notwithstanding) was accurate,

>as well, since most chemical substances (including that good old mold,

>penicillin) occur naturally somewhere in our ecosystem, not just in a petri

>dish. and there are no accidents; just discoveries.

> 

 

LSD as we know it, or know of it, DOES NOT exist naturally...

 

OK... I have just been reading posts here for the last few days or so (as i

am doing a graduate study on the "beat generation writiers"-- and whatever

that vague term may be construed to mean)

 

as an old acidhead myself (and as a somewhat historically minded writer) I

have some insights into the LSD phenomenon (as well as a little historical

perspective)....

 

OK... so here goes...  the indole, LSD (that is d-Lysergic Acid

Diethylamide or LysergSaureDiethylamid in it original German)  was first

synthesized in Basil, Switzerland, yes, Sandoz labs (1938-43) by a Dr.

Albert Hoffman (I remember doing paper hits with his portrait on them in

the 70s, hehehe), but did not make into biochemical psychiatry until after

April 16, 1943 (the day Dr Albert accidentally dosed himself) and it was

many years later that this research was released to the medical community

at large (Zurich 1947, first scientific paper published, 1949 first North

American Study, 1953 Sandoz applies to the FDA, and SIMULTANEOUSLY begins

distributing large quantinities of this drug to "qualified" scientists

around the world).... anyhow, after that all hell broke loose.....

 

 

So, back to JACK and ergot (and ergotism).... as someone said earlier,

ergot goes way back, in France around 945AD to 1600AD it was known as

"Saint Anthony's Fire" (officially around 1100AD) and was/is quite lethal,

causing muscle spasms, convulsions, and various disturbances of the

consciousness and thinking (version #1).  Another version of ergotism

(Version #2 same fungus, different deal) causes limbs to become swollen and

violent burning pain (i.e. the "Fire" of our saint?) which moves rapidly

into gangrene because the ergot causes a contraction of the blood vessels,

hence cutting of blood flow to the limbs... ohh, nasty stuff huh?

 

So anyway, it is important to note that ergot has Lysergic Acid in it (thus

its property as a hallucinogen) and it was work with this fungus (Claviceps

purpurea) and its alkaloids that lead Dr. Hoffman to the discovery of LSD...

 

Outside of the beats and Jack's possible ingestion of an ergot dose (which

doesn't seem likely, to me, due to the harsh side effects)... it is

interesting to note (if you are into the Salem witch trials, that  I have

read a couple great articles that tie convulsive ergotism (version #1) to

the eight "possesed" girls that started all that hullaballu back in

1692.... oh well, probably not

 

anyhow, I hope this clears up a little about  the possibility of Jack's

exposurem to ergotism during the Big Sur era..... but then, who knows.....

 

psychedelically yours,

 

kris kurrus

spokane, washington

 

 

 

 

 

 and  (interestingly, only symptomatic treatment exists even today)....

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:27:49 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: LSD INFO RESEARCH HISTORY

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FIRST OF ALL REMEMBER IN ALL HORROR STORIES YOU HEAR, SET AND SETTING PLAY A

MAJOR ROLE IN SAFETY AND ENHANCEMENT OF THE PSYCHEDELIC EXPERIENCE.

LSD 25 was an accidental discovery, yes, but by hoffman who was investigating

 all

uses of ergot; not the ergot that contaminates rye see. many other strains. the

bicycle trip home is a classic and is to be found in many of the books listed

below. many books below are out of print. the more scholarly ones were used in

classes exploring the psychedelic experience approx 1966-73, at M.I.T. (one of

 co

authors below was an M.I.T. faculty member.

 

best sources of info relating to discovery and development of lsd as well as

beats/sixties cross over:

*jay stevens : Storming Heaven LSD and the american dream; harper&row/perennial

library, 1988

 

best source of cia involement and results:

martin a. lee&bruce shlain: ACID DREAMS the complete social history of LSD: the

CIA, the  sixties and beyond;

grove pressNY1985

 

best source of knowledge of all naturally occuring psychedelics:

PLANTS OF THE GODS / albert hofmann and schultes/healing arts press rochester

vt1992

 

LSD MY PROBLEM CHILD: Albert Hoffman

 

other resources

PSYCHEDELICS: the uses and implications of halluciongenic drugs/ bernard Asson

and huphrey osmond:anchor books; double day anchor book and company 1970

scholarly studies, both professors

 

ALTERED STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS: ed. charles t. tart/double day anchor

 presscirca

1970 - scholarly research including lsd both professors

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:33:41 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      LSD INFO ADDENDUM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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In most recounts of JK and lsd, by the principals who dosed him,

including leary, the poop was he was acutely uncomfortable with the

experience.

it's in one or two of the books i cited.

storming heaven has account of AG and Peter O's first trip in which they

came bursting exuberantly into leary's living room stark naked wanting

to call the president and kruschev to tell them of how they could end

the cold war....

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:58:19 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> In most recounts of JK and lsd, by the principals who dosed him,

> including leary, the poop was he was acutely uncomfortable with the

> experience.

> it's in one or two of the books i cited.

> storming heaven has account of AG and Peter O's first trip in which they

> came bursting exuberantly into leary's living room stark naked wanting

> to call the president and kruschev to tell them of how they could end

> the cold war....

> mc

 

burroughs letters suggest that he was less than fond of the experience

as well.  but in junkie he refers to having hallucinations as a child

naturally so perhaps his particular chemical makeup wasn't well suited

to this type of chemical change.  from what i understand about the

Doctor Sax character and some of the other early kerouac tales, it seems

as though he had a very very active imagination that reached the edges

from early on.  so the chemical stimulations from hallucinogenics might

not make sense -- and the understanding of the desire for alcohol to

sedate the negations to which his mind leapt so easily later is also

understandable.

 

perhaps some form of speed (which provides focus as well as lift - hence

its use on attention-deficit difficulties) was the natural chemical for

Jack.  so much of what is considered his kicks and joy seem to come in

periods associated with this chemical use.

 

does someone know more about the changes in Kerouac's chemical use in

the past ten years or so?  did he move strictly to alcohol?  when did he

slow on stimulants?  are there accounts of what his attitude towards

stimulants were in the later years?

 

wondering in kansas.  soon to head for turkey in Denver.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:01:04 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      oops typo  Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM

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RACE --- wrote:

> 

> does someone know more about the changes in Kerouac's chemical use in

> the past ten years or so?  did he move strictly to alcohol?  when did he

> slow on stimulants?  are there accounts of what his attitude towards

> stimulants were in the later years?

> 

> wondering in kansas.  soon to head for turkey in Denver.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

i meant to say "last" ten years, not "past" ten years.  though if

anybody on the list has heard from Jack in the past ten years concerning

chemicals or other matters i'd love to hear that too!!!!!

 

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:52:49 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      ginsberg and GAP

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  I found this on the net during one of my intensive Ginsberg

searches. I thought it's a bit relevant to the Kerouac GAP ad

discussion of last week.

              Maggie

 

Allen Ginsberg wears Khakis

 

I saw it in a GAP ad

in Interview Magazine.

 

Did someone from the public

relations department at the GAP

call up Allen Ginsberg

and say:

"Picture it --

you're sitting on the

floor surrounded by classic books (we'll even let you choose the

authors)

There's an antique typewriter

sitting in front of you.

You're wearing

the traditional

uniform of beatnik

poets -- literary spectacles,

a classic white T-,

a rugged

tweed jacket, and of course,

khaki pants.

On the bottom of the page,

we see

in elegant black

letters, ALLEN GINSBERG WEARS KHAKIS.

So what do ya think, Allen?"

 

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:02:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

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In a message dated 97-11-23 21:13:42 EST, Kris wrote:

 

<< distributing large quantinities of this drug to "qualified" scientists

 around the world).... anyhow, after that all hell broke loose.....

 =20

 So, back to JACK and ergot (and ergotism).... as someone said earlier,

  >>

 

I didn't really intend to imply (or even hypothesize) that jack had gotte=

n

hold of some naturally occurring LSD (necessarily). When I read Big Sur o=

ver

again, I was simply struck by how similar his madness was to acid & mesca=

line

trips I took in the Sixties and finally, in 1970. Seems to me there must =

have

been a catlyst that set him off. I've heard people say it was the DTs, an=

d I

don't know too much about those, but I'm betting bummers, DTs and Jeffers=

on

Airplane flights all come out of the same place, and are activated throug=

h

the hypothalmus gland.

 

But I'd love to hear other accounts of experiences similar to that jack w=

rote

about in Big Sur, and know how they came about. I've seen two schizophren=

ic

breakdowns, but they didn't heal right up like jack's did, and the worst =

of

his delusions seemed to take place over a period of time that was less th=

an

24 hours long.

 

On the other hand, like Ferlinghetti (Monsanto) keeps telling jack in the

book, "Don't think too much... you think too much." And jack himself wrot=

e

about that:

I GO WALKING TOWARDS Mien Mo mountain in the moon illuminated August nigh=

t,

see gorgeous misty mountains rising the horizon and like saying to me "Yo=

u

dont have to torture your consciousness with endless thinking" so I sit i=

n

the sand and look inward=85 "Man is a busy little animal, a nice little a=

nimal,

his thoughts about everything dont amount to shit."

 

I sure don't want to overthink this. There are some absolutely tactile im=

ages

in Big Sur, and sometimes I think we overlook the quality of his prose in=

 a

book that has so much autobiographical information. We get hung up on "th=

e

story behind the story," and fail to see the beauty.

 

I was thinking how incredible it was that he had the presence of mind to =

be

aware of what was happening to him, and to write it down so faithfully wh=

en

he was finished cracking up. To me, that is a measure of his inspired sou=

l as

a chosen one, a vessel through which such beauty flows as most ignorant f=

olks

can't really understand. He certainly believed he was inspired:

BUT MY WAKING UP would take place and then everything would vanish except

Heaven, which is God=97And that was why later in life after these rather

strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that fainting visi=

on

of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it=85 in the woods, I

conceived of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messenger =

from

Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking

society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong

track.

 

But he saw his weaknesses:

WITH ALL THIS IN MY BACKGROUND, now at the point of adulthood disaster of=

 the

soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted into a

fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:

 

And maybe drugs were getting to him:

BUT THAT'S NOT the point, about pot paranoia, yet maybe it is at that=97I=

=92ve

long given it up because it bugs me anyway=97

 

Who knows? He was certainly disillusioned:

=85I USED TO STAND by the windows like this in my childhood and look out =

on

dusky streets and think how awful I was in this development everybody sai=

d

was supposed to be "my life" and "their lives." =96Not so much that I=92m=

 a

drunkard that I feel guilty about but that others who occupy this plane o=

f

"life on earth" with me don=92t feel guilty at all=97

 

I'm happy to stipulate that jack's collapse didn't have anything to do wi=

th

LSD, but was some kind of inner look in midlife where he couldn't deal wi=

th

what he saw, and I add this tiny bit of theory: I think there were so few

peers in his world who could ever reach him, because he was on a plane pe=

ople

could witness but never visit. I know people like that. They just can't b=

e

reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family=

,

not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god=

 or

creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection

gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:17:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: LSD INFO RESEARCH HISTORY

In-Reply-To:  <199711240129.UAA21757@pike.sover.net>

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Potato Chips were also an accidental discovery, jus thought youd like to

know...

 

 

 

On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> FIRST OF ALL REMEMBER IN ALL HORROR STORIES YOU HEAR, SET AND SETTING PLAY A

> MAJOR ROLE IN SAFETY AND ENHANCEMENT OF THE PSYCHEDELIC EXPERIENCE.

> LSD 25 was an accidental discovery, yes, but by hoffman who was investigating

>  all

> uses of ergot; not the ergot that contaminates rye see. many other strains.

 the

> bicycle trip home is a classic and is to be found in many of the books listed

> below. many books below are out of print. the more scholarly ones were used in

> classes exploring the psychedelic experience approx 1966-73, at M.I.T. (one of

>  co

> authors below was an M.I.T. faculty member.

> 

> best sources of info relating to discovery and development of lsd as well as

> beats/sixties cross over:

> *jay stevens : Storming Heaven LSD and the american dream;

 harper&row/perennial

> library, 1988

> 

> best source of cia involement and results:

> martin a. lee&bruce shlain: ACID DREAMS the complete social history of LSD:

 the

> CIA, the  sixties and beyond;

> grove pressNY1985

> 

> best source of knowledge of all naturally occuring psychedelics:

> PLANTS OF THE GODS / albert hofmann and schultes/healing arts press rochester

> vt1992

> 

> LSD MY PROBLEM CHILD: Albert Hoffman

> 

> other resources

> PSYCHEDELICS: the uses and implications of halluciongenic drugs/ bernard Asson

> and huphrey osmond:anchor books; double day anchor book and company 1970

> scholarly studies, both professors

> 

> ALTERED STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS: ed. charles t. tart/double day anchor

>  presscirca

> 1970 - scholarly research including lsd both professors

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:40:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

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>Why am I prolonging this?

>I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes

>with the

>audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"

>I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.

 

     you mean the one with Edie in the background?  that's what i

thought when i saw the ad too.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:43:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

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You_Be Fine wrote:

>  I know people like that. They just can't be

> reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family,

> not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god or

> creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection

> gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.

 

i think i understand what you're saying.  but on a lot of JK threads

over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his

drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly

rational.  i'm not saying that you're going this far here.  but if JK is

one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical

mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c

that's where he truly belonged.  i don't know.  just wonder sometimes if

our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that

has been pedestalized isn't unfair.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:55:18 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      on the other hand (was Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

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RACE --- wrote:

> 

> You_Be Fine wrote:

> >  I know people like that. They just can't be

> > reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family,

> > not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god or

> > creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection

> > gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.

> 

> i think i understand what you're saying.  but on a lot of JK threads

> over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his

> drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly

> rational.  i'm not saying that you're going this far here.  but if JK is

> one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical

> mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c

> that's where he truly belonged.  i don't know.  just wonder sometimes if

> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that

> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

<so now i'm talking to myself on the Listserve!!!>

(another typo BTW -- should have been "past" year not "same" year)

 

on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction

for it's own sake.  in the event that one feels JK may have been

ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly

means this is the proper path for most of us.  This is part of why i

think that reading his work as a means of avoiding self-destructiveness

(as suggested in the Vanity threads) can be very important.

 

but then again - what do i know ---- i've been threw more crackups than

Jack and definitely had my own self-destructive phase so perhaps i

should not be preachy --- if i was being preachy --

 

i'll go back to talking to myself in private now..... :)

 

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:03:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Good Blonde

In-Reply-To:  <3478F7EE.3D0A@midusa.net>

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I am using Good Blonde for an assigment which entails studying a group of

essays written by one author. The next part of the assigment requires that

I find an essay on the original essays. Does anyone know if there are ny

books out there that critique Kerouac's work, particularly those Good

Blonde? Thanks.

~Nancy

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:18:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

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RACE --- wrote:

> 

> You_Be Fine wrote:

> >  I know people like that. They just can't be

> > reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family,

> > not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god or

> > creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection

> > gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.

> 

> i think i understand what you're saying.  but on a lot of JK threads

> over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his

> drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly

> rational.  i'm not saying that you're going this far here.  but if JK is

> one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical

> mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c

> that's where he truly belonged.  i don't know.  just wonder sometimes if

> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that

> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

I feel some anger at jack,  it is probably the same anger when you see

someone choose "not to"  It is a tiring business this life and i am

impatient and frustrated when a gift and vision is drowned in poison.  I

believe that jack drowned his gift in alcohol and killed it.  I don't

know why and i sure haven't walked in those shoes,  maybe the same gift

that let him feel and see things as he did, dealt him the terror of his

life being out of control.  Maybe some of the terror that is life burnt

him and so he drank himself to death.  but still, i am angry that he

drank himself to death.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:24:07 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

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RACE --- wrote:

 

<snip>

perhaps he went away b/c

 

> that's where he truly belonged.  i don't know.  just wonder sometimes if

> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that

> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

Jack gave everything he had in his soul to give.  He then was truly a "homeless"

man in that he was on this planet past his time.  He wrote it all.  With Thomas

Wolfe, they told the story of 20th Century America.  They both then left as it

 was

time to go.  Jack just could not adjust to living without the fire in his gut.

 He

couldn't make the change.  That's cool.  As Neil Young said, "Better to burn

 out,

than to fade away."

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:27:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      What she said

Comments: To: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.solidsolutions.com>,

          byrdmaniax <byrdmaniax@waxing-eloquent.com>

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My eight year old daughter has not asked about Santa so she hasn't been

told.  But, she is thinking about this Myth.  So, tonight she says to

her mother.  "You know those guys at the mall.  They take the things

that you tell them, then they email them back to Santa.  That way, Santa

knows what you want."

 

Now that is a good edition to the American myth.  Email to Santa from

how many malls and how many messages.  No wonder the backbone is being

overloaded!  I mean, think of the flow around 9:00 in each time zone!

:-)

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:31:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> I feel some anger at jack,  it is probably the same anger when you see

> someone choose "not to"  It is a tiring business this life and i am

> impatient and frustrated when a gift and vision is drowned in poison.  I

> believe that jack drowned his gift in alcohol and killed it.  I don't

> know why and i sure haven't walked in those shoes,  maybe the same gift

> that let him feel and see things as he did, dealt him the terror of his

> life being out of control.  Maybe some of the terror that is life burnt

> him and so he drank himself to death.  but still, i am angry that he

> drank himself to death.

> patricia

 

Patricia

 

I did not mean to sanction what Jack did.  My point was that once he knew that

 his

purpose as a "writer" had been manifest, he could not adjust to a new role.  I

 think

it is tragic that he lacked the courage to do it.  It's just that some choose to

leave once they "do it."  I have always admired WSB's courage for hanging tough

 no

matter what.  I wish that Jack had more of that.  But he didn't.  So, it is

 better

that he is gone.  And he did give us all of his heart and soul, even if he

 couldn't

do it in real life relationships.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:15:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

In a message dated 97-11-24 00:07:24 EST, Bentz wrote:

 

<< Jack just could not adjust to living without the fire in his gut.

  He couldn't make the change.  That's cool.  >>

 

Now this I don't agree with. I think jack was so passive... the observer of

all the ones who HAD the fire in their guts. But I know he became more

passive and more timid as he grew older, as so many of us do. Sometimes it's

hard to look back on exploits of one's salad days and believe we really

survived it all.

 

jack had a disease (at least one). He suffered the progressive disease of

alcoholism. That takes a tremendous physical toll, and sometimes I think he

was just living on psychotic energy or something to get from day to day. I

don't know. I'm no expert. I can only speak from personal experience and

death certificates.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:27:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      big surLiSizeD without anger

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In a message dated 97-11-24 00:08:13 EST, you write:

 

<<=20

 on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction

 for it's own sake.  in the event that one feels JK may have been

 ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly

 means this is the proper path for most of us.  >>

 

Yeah, the artist/poet myth that allows for unchecked drinking and

self-destructive behaviour is romantic and bogus and SICK. The

self-destruction that jack suffered was NOT deliberate, nor was it connec=

ted

to his gift... his "angel mind," if you will (hee hee hee)... He was an

artist IN SPITE of it, not BECAUSE of it. He was an alcoholic, an angel, =

a

vessel, a drunk. To be angry at him is understandable, at a distance from

whence we view it today. But if only we had seen him up close... I don't

think anyone would have wasted their anger on him. Again, in his words:

"WELL I DONT KNOW all those big theories about how everything should be

goddamit all I know it that I=92m a helpless hunk of horse manure looking=

 in

your eye saying Help me"=97

 

Shit, why am I explaining? It's all there, in Big Sur, and it only takes =

a

Saturday to read it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:23:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mark Slattey <08SLATTERY@CUA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM

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        Unsubsribe beat list

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:58:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD

In-Reply-To:  <971123164607_1483088457@mrin86.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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AngelMindz@AOL.COM wrote:

>After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out couch

>at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my

>sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down the

>sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If you'll

>just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, I

>promise...."

 

Anyone remember that great country song of 40 or so years ago:

 

"I got tears in my ears from layin' on my back 'n crying my heart out over

you."

 

j grant

 

                Small Press Publishers and Authors

                  Display Books Free At BookZen

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                         http://www.bookzen.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:05:24 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

man have you hit that, except that i think he still was on his path and just

had to ride it out.  he got what he needed to learn that time around, and

somehow i feel like maybe he got far enough along that he has no need to

revisit this plane.

JK was definitely more of the spiritual realm than of this one, IMHO, from his

early childhood.

 

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of You_Be Fine

Sent:   Sunday, November 23, 1997 7:02 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

In a message dated 97-11-23 21:13:42 EST, Kris wrote:

 

<< distributing large quantinities of this drug to "qualified" scientists

 around the world).... anyhow, after that all hell broke loose.....

 =20

 So, back to JACK and ergot (and ergotism).... as someone said earlier,

  >>

 

I didn't really intend to imply (or even hypothesize) that jack had gotte=

n

hold of some naturally occurring LSD (necessarily). When I read Big Sur o=

ver

again, I was simply struck by how similar his madness was to acid & mesca=

line

trips I took in the Sixties and finally, in 1970. Seems to me there must =

have

been a catlyst that set him off. I've heard people say it was the DTs, an=

d I

don't know too much about those, but I'm betting bummers, DTs and Jeffers=

on

Airplane flights all come out of the same place, and are activated throug=

h

the hypothalmus gland.

 

But I'd love to hear other accounts of experiences similar to that jack w=

rote

about in Big Sur, and know how they came about. I've seen two schizophren=

ic

breakdowns, but they didn't heal right up like jack's did, and the worst =

of

his delusions seemed to take place over a period of time that was less th=

an

24 hours long.

 

On the other hand, like Ferlinghetti (Monsanto) keeps telling jack in the

book, "Don't think too much... you think too much." And jack himself wrot=

e

about that:

I GO WALKING TOWARDS Mien Mo mountain in the moon illuminated August nigh=

t,

see gorgeous misty mountains rising the horizon and like saying to me "Yo=

u

dont have to torture your consciousness with endless thinking" so I sit i=

n

the sand and look inward=85 "Man is a busy little animal, a nice little a=

nimal,

his thoughts about everything dont amount to shit."

 

I sure don't want to overthink this. There are some absolutely tactile im=

ages

in Big Sur, and sometimes I think we overlook the quality of his prose in=

 a

book that has so much autobiographical information. We get hung up on "th=

e

story behind the story," and fail to see the beauty.

 

I was thinking how incredible it was that he had the presence of mind to =

be

aware of what was happening to him, and to write it down so faithfully wh=

en

he was finished cracking up. To me, that is a measure of his inspired sou=

l as

a chosen one, a vessel through which such beauty flows as most ignorant f=

olks

can't really understand. He certainly believed he was inspired:

BUT MY WAKING UP would take place and then everything would vanish except

Heaven, which is God=97And that was why later in life after these rather

strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that fainting visi=

on

of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it=85 in the woods, I

conceived of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messenger =

from

Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking

society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong

track.

 

But he saw his weaknesses:

WITH ALL THIS IN MY BACKGROUND, now at the point of adulthood disaster of=

 the

soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted into a

fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:

 

And maybe drugs were getting to him:

BUT THAT'S NOT the point, about pot paranoia, yet maybe it is at that=97I=

=92ve

long given it up because it bugs me anyway=97

 

Who knows? He was certainly disillusioned:

=85I USED TO STAND by the windows like this in my childhood and look out =

on

dusky streets and think how awful I was in this development everybody sai=

d

was supposed to be "my life" and "their lives." =96Not so much that I=92m=

 a

drunkard that I feel guilty about but that others who occupy this plane o=

f

"life on earth" with me don=92t feel guilty at all=97

 

I'm happy to stipulate that jack's collapse didn't have anything to do wi=

th

LSD, but was some kind of inner look in midlife where he couldn't deal wi=

th

what he saw, and I add this tiny bit of theory: I think there were so few

peers in his world who could ever reach him, because he was on a plane pe=

ople

could witness but never visit. I know people like that. They just can't b=

e

reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family=

,

not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god=

 or

creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection

gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:11:34 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

i was writing a post like this when this came up, Bentz.  thanks.  the soul

chooses its path for its own reasons.  who are we to judge that?  hell, i'm in

love with JK - sometimes reading him is like reading myself (only a thousand

times better).  i was just a kid when he died and the only thing i really knew

about him was having seen him on the Steve Allen show when i was probably

about 5 or 7.  i knew of him as a writer,  but didn't 'meet' him until fairly

recently.  the moment i 'met' him there was an instant soul connection for me.

 

sometimes the feet can't cling to this earth any more.  he needed to go sooner

than he did.  "Big Sur"  makes it obvious.  but his doubt kept him here and

the drink dulled the fear.  i definitely say a huge YES to life.  and as much

as i would have liked Jack to be around when i could have appreciated him and

would have been greedy to have more and more books from him, i would never

have wished for his continued misery.  i'll always mourn him, but i'll never

be angry at him - he owed me nothing.

 

ciao, sherri

 

"there's a black cat caught in a high treetop (that's my soul up there)...

i'll always be queen of pain"

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R. Bentz Kirby

Sent:   Sunday, November 23, 1997 8:24 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

<snip>

perhaps he went away b/c

 

> that's where he truly belonged.  i don't know.  just wonder sometimes if

> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that

> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

Jack gave everything he had in his soul to give.  He then was truly a

"homeless"

man in that he was on this planet past his time.  He wrote it all.  With

Thomas

Wolfe, they told the story of 20th Century America.  They both then left as it

 was

time to go.  Jack just could not adjust to living without the fire in his gut.

 He

couldn't make the change.  That's cool.  As Neil Young said, "Better to burn

 out,

than to fade away."

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:20:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: LSD INFO RESEARCH HISTORY

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971123221643.32078B-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Potato Chips were also an accidental discovery, jus thought youd like to

>know...

 

So were Post It notes, Ivory (it floats) bar soap, and flubber.

 

                Small Press Publishers and Authors

                  Display Books Free At BookZen

                                592,901 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-01-97

                         http://www.bookzen.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:40:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

In-Reply-To:  <msg1274808.thr-3c78858a.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

>      you mean the one with Edie in the background?  that's what i

> thought when i saw the ad too.

 

Argh.  I swear, I'm really sorry to keep bothering people with this, but

its Joyce Johnson, not Edie Parker.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:55:37 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: oops typo  Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

hi dave:  in vanity of duluoz, he talks of developing phlebitis from too many

benzedrine inhalers, but i don't know if this stopped his use

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

> RACE --- wrote:

> >

> > does someone know more about the changes in Kerouac's chemical use in

> > the past ten years or so?  did he move strictly to alcohol?  when did he

> > slow on stimulants?  are there accounts of what his attitude towards

> > stimulants were in the later years?

> >

> > wondering in kansas.  soon to head for turkey in Denver.

> >

> > david rhaesa

> > salina, Kansas

> 

> i meant to say "last" ten years, not "past" ten years.  though if

> anybody on the list has heard from Jack in the past ten years concerning

> chemicals or other matters i'd love to hear that too!!!!!

> 

> david

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:57:47 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: oops typo

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> hi dave:  in vanity of duluoz, he talks of developing phlebitis from too many

> benzedrine inhalers, but i don't know if this stopped his use

> 

 

oh yeah - i forgot about the phlebitis factor.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:06:53 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i agree, david- and i also believe it was the disconnection that alcoholism

brought on. JK was JK and he wrote and left us so much to read understand enjoy

and cry about in the autobiographical explorations of self and friends and

 search

for spirituality.

i don't feel ripped off, i do feel sorrowful at such an untimely and horrible

death.

mc

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

> i think i understand what you're saying.  but on a lot of JK threads

> over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his

> drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly

> rational.  i'm not saying that you're going this far here.  but if JK is

> one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical

> mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c

> that's where he truly belonged.  i don't know.  just wonder sometimes if

> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that

> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:09:45 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: on the other hand (was Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

> on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction

> for it's own sake.  in the event that one feels JK may have been

> ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly

> means this is the proper path for most of us.  This is part of why i

> think that reading his work as a means of avoiding self-destructiveness

> (as suggested in the Vanity threads) can be very important.

> 

> but then again - what do i know ---- i've been threw more crackups than

> Jack and definitely had my own self-destructive phase so perhaps i

> should not be preachy --- if i was being preachy --

> 

> i'll go back to talking to myself in private now..... :)

> 

> david

 

  nah dave you were talking to me, with my own share of crackups, never have i

suggested (even with art flowing out after the fact) that the way to

 understanding

lies in a psychic meltdown.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:16:19 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without anger

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

> i've always called it the dylan thomas syndrome, falling dead off his

> barstool and all who have emulated the sickness as a way to let out or

> discover creativity.

 

mc

 

> 

> 

> Yeah, the artist/poet myth that allows for unchecked drinking and

> self-destructive behaviour is romantic and bogus and SICK. The

> self-destruction that jack suffered was NOT deliberate, nor was it conn=

ected

> to his gift... his "angel mind," if you will (hee hee hee)... He was an

> artist IN SPITE of it, not BECAUSE of it. He was an alcoholic, an angel=

, a

> vessel, a drunk. To be angry at him is understandable, at a distance fr=

om

> whence we view it today. But if only we had seen him up close... I don'=

t

> think anyone would have wasted their anger on him. Again, in his words:

> "WELL I DONT KNOW all those big theories about how everything should be

> goddamit all I know it that I=92m a helpless hunk of horse manure looki=

ng in

> your eye saying Help me"=97

> 

> Shit, why am I explaining? It's all there, in Big Sur, and it only take=

s a

> Saturday to read it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:02:09 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      jo grant

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

sorry all, but i need to get in touch with you jo, my attempts to

contact you back channel keep bouncing back

thanks

marie c

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:18:17 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Good Blonde

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> 

> I am using Good Blonde for an assigment which entails studying a group of

> essays written by one author. The next part of the assigment requires that

> I find an essay on the original essays. Does anyone know if there are ny

> books out there that critique Kerouac's work, particularly those Good

> Blonde? Thanks.

> ~Nancy

> 

> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> Sure-JK

 

In reading through all the titles of the reviews and whatnot at

<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Biblio/KerouacBiblio.html> there wasn't

anything that seemed explicitly devoted to GB.  Perhaps the maintainer

of that site will have further ideas.

 

good luck.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:17:51 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

How about them toad-suckers

Ain't they sappy?

Sucking them bog frogs

Sure makes 'em happy...

 

                    Mason Williams (a man well ahead of his time)

 

----------

> From: Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD

> Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 6:36 PM

> 

> Hey Beat-list have any of you tried Toad Venom?

> 

> T.V.

> "I've got a new drug."

> Fritz has a new drug.

> "Toad venom wanna smoke some?"

> "What does it do?"

> "Mild high, acid, hash, coke buzz."

> "Totally toadular."

> Nee deep, Nee deep.

> We drive to the beach,

> Climb down cliffs.

> Fritz loads the pipe,

> Flaky wax substance.

> Take a hit,

> Rolling, ground.

> Kids on the cliff shout,

> "Hey man, smoke that bud up here dude."

> Fritz takes a hit. Now we are both rolling,

> I yell back to them,

> "TOAD VENOM!!"

> Frog high, web brain.

> Buddha bug tongue buzz.

> Old pond splashes in mind.

> Close eyes.

> Tune to insects,

> Scope, sight, snatch.

> Toad Mind, Toad Soul, Wart Love!!

> Hallucinaphibians in desert,

> Arizona evenings, web foot summer.

> Glands in the backs of their necks,

> defense against being bit.

> Squeeze, pop, juicy, squirt,

> On Pyrex dish.

> Let it dry over night.

> Scrape, scrape.

> Fly paper lily pad, LEAP!

> Nee deep, Nee deep, Nee Deep.

> 

> Yrs,

> Gary Mex Glazner

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:00:09 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> I did not mean to sanction what Jack did.  My point was that once he

> knew that

>  his

> purpose as a "writer" had been manifest, he could not adjust to a new

> role.  I

>  think

> it is tragic that he lacked the courage to do it.  It's just that some

> choose to

> leave once they "do it."  I have always admired WSB's courage for

> hanging tough

>  no

> matter what.  I wish that Jack had more of that.  But he didn't.  So,

> it is

>  better

> that he is gone.  And he did give us all of his heart and soul, even if

> he

>  couldn't

> do it in real life relationships.

 

Bentz,

 

It still seems to me that what you are saying with the ideas of "better

to burn than fade away," and "his purpose as a writer had been manifest"

is awfully close to fatalism, that we are all given certain paths in life

and there's nothing we can do to change them.  I agree with Patricia that

"Jack drowned his gift in alcholism and killed it."  I don't feel

particularly angry about that but I do feel very sad about that.  Even if

you believe alcoholism is a disease, it is a disease with a choice.  It's

not like cancer.  You can choose not to drink.  It brings us back to the

whole erroneous idea that the nature of the artist is to suffer and burn

out in self-destructiveness.  What a wonderful excuse that is to think

you are fated to be self-destructive.  The woman in Big Sur tries

continually to help Jack but he continues to choose the path he is on,

which is a slow suicide.  But when Billie runs out into the ocean, for a

moment, Jack thinks she is going to commit suicide, and writes, "I

suddenly wonder if she's going to horrify the heavens and me too with a

sudden suicide walk into those awful undertows..." The thought shocked

him, it horrified him, he didn't think, it's fate, it's OK for her to

choose death now.  Big Sur is a record of a human being's own

self-destruction. And if anyone reads it with the attitude that, "yes

Jack was meant to be this way, he was in too much pain to live on earth,

it was good he died young, then it is also sending a message to whole new

generations of writers and other humans that self-destruction is OK.  So

maybe then after writing this I do agree with Patricia's anger; it's

true, we can never walk in anyone else's shoes but we should be angry

when any person's gift is lost to the world through self-destruction.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:05:25 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Good Blonde

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

>> 

>> I am using Good Blonde for an assigment which entails studying a group of

>> essays written by one author. The next part of the assigment requires that

>> I find an essay on the original essays. Does anyone know if there are ny

>> books out there that critique Kerouac's work, particularly those Good

>> Blonde? Thanks.

>> ~Nancy

 

Good Blonde is a recent compilation of assorted pieces by kerouac.  As such

you won't find anything about this book but might find some things about

the individual pieces.

 

As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde.  This was first publshed in The

Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this

in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones.  He wrote an introductory essay to

the stories, you could look there.  But you will need a university library

to find it I'll bet.

 

The Moderns might help for what you are trying to do.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:26:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

In a message dated 97-11-24 11:41:01 EST, DC wrote:

 

<<  I agree with Patricia that

 "Jack drowned his gift in alcholism and killed it."  I don't feel

 particularly angry about that but I do feel very sad about that.  Even if

 you believe alcoholism is a disease, it is a disease with a choice.  It's

 not like cancer.  You can choose not to drink.  It brings us back to the

 whole erroneous idea that the nature of the artist is to suffer and burn

 out in self-destructiveness.  What a wonderful excuse that is to think

 you are fated to be self-destructive.  The woman in Big Sur tries

 continually to help Jack but he continues to choose the path he is on,

 which is a slow suicide.  >>

 

Good, bad or indifferent, jack always drank and jack always wrote. He didn't

"drown his gift in alcoholism." All the while he was drinking, taking speed,

and smoking dope, he was writing the beautiful words we all read today, but

not because of the drinking, as I said before; IN SPITE OF IT.

 

If you think alcoholism is any less fatal or imprisoning than cancer, I'd say

you should do a little research on the subject. It's a complicated disease,

and from the outside, it looks like drinkers SHOULD be able to choose, should

be able to stop. But if they could, they would. In the Big Book of Alcoholics

Anonymous, 1939, Bill W. (founder of AA) wrote:

RARELY HAVE WE SEEN A PERSON FAIL who hs thoroughly followed our path. Those

who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give

themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are

constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such

unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to be born that way.

 

He goes on to say, "Remember that we deal with alcohol--cunning, baffling,

powerful! Without help it is too much for us." Alcoholics Anonymous, the most

recommended group in the world for recovering from alcoholism, still has a

less than 10% success rate. That's not because it isn't a good program. It's

because alcoholism is a disease that grabs one by the soul, mind and body,

all at once, and releasing its grip is, for most of us, impossible.

 

As for Billie, man, there is one sick puppy. That woman is despicable, and

she's not "helping" jack at all in Big Sur. She's only interested in what she

can get from him. She's in love with Neal, and wants to use jack to get to

Neal. In jack's mind, he sees the conspiracy:

CAN IT BE it was all arranged by Dave Wain via Cody that I would meet Billie

and be driven mad and now they've got me alone in the woods and they are

going to give me final poisons tonight that will utterly remove all my

control so that in the morning I'll have to go to a hospital forever and

never write another line?--Dave Wain is jealous because I wrote 10

novels?--Billie has been assigned by Cody to get me to marry her so he'll get

all my money?

 

Here's jack with this beautiful blonde who wants to fuck all the time, but

continually lays trips on him about how she has nothing to live for and is

going to kill herself. Not only is she going to kill herself, but she's going

to take her 4-year-old son, Elliot, out with her. And well she should, since

she's messed him up beyond belief, encouraging the child to watch her and her

lovers fucking and to ask questions about it, but then when he asks too many

questions, she flips out, tells the kid she's going to beat him, beats him,

and then tells him it's his fault she's beating him and because she feels so

bad about beating him, she has to kill herself. This, to a four-year-old. I

say, no fucking wonder jack flipped out with Billie.

 

Near the end, when Billie digs an Elliot-sized grave, that little wigged-out

child is hysterical, screaming, "grabs the shovel and refuses [to] go near

the hole," Billie plays a sadistic game with Elliot and jack, and when jack

confronts her about it: "With the same quiet steady smile Billie says, 'Oh

you're so fucking neurotic!'"

 

This woman is more insane than jack, more neurotic and twisted. As I was

reading Big Sur this time, I was wondering what ever happened to her son,

who'd be 40 or 41 today. He was one of the several children jack mentions in

Big Sur, including Michael McClure's "pretty little angel daughter... coming

in to hand me an extremely tiny flower," and the 8, 9 and 10 year old girls

the pedophile Perry Yturbide says have "the most beautiful cans in town," to

which jack thinks, "I realize he's dangerously insane," as he kidnaps the

10-year-old and takes her off to molest her. But Billie, when jack tells her

this, only says, "That's the way he is, be sure to dig him"--

 

No, that whole scene contributed to his crack-up at Big Sur, not just his own

alcoholism (which lowered his defenses) but the users and misfits and ghouls

that somehow attached themselves to jack, comprising that Beatnik scene.

 

Read the book and maybe you'll see. No one can save anyone from anything, and

no one can ruin anyone's life. But when someone is sick, as jack was then,

entering the last stages of alcoholism with weeks-long binges, it's very easy

to prey upon that person's weakness, to take advantage of him.

 

He didn't choose to be an alcoholic, and he didn't have the strength or

self-honesty to take the cure. He's just like a billion other alcoholics. If

they could choose another way to be, they would.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:28:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:

>>      you mean the one with Edie in the background?  that's what i

>> thought when i saw the ad too.

 

>Argh.  I swear, I'm really sorry to keep bothering people with this, but

>its Joyce Johnson, not Edie Parker.

 

     So the caption is wrong then?  hmmm.. wonder if the folks who

compiled it know that?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:03:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

Comments: To: Anne <gbarker@thegrid.net>

In-Reply-To:  <34764033.BBD9A82F@thegrid.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Yeah, my own version of that has always been, "Sure, I believe in God--I

just have no idea what that means."

 

These days I lean toward my own understanding of Buddhism.

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

 

The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is

really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:06:58 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <347706F7.472D@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Well, it's gotta be Marshall McLuhan, right?  But I don't know which book.

I'd guess UNDERSTANDING MEDIA, his most famous--but there again, even

though I've read it, I don't recognize which part J.K. might be thinking

of...hrmmma....

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

 

The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is

really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:50:49 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles

horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own

imagination?

 

leon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 9:36 AM

Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

 

>In a message dated 97-11-24 11:41:01 EST, DC wrote:

> 

><<  I agree with Patricia that

> "Jack drowned his gift in alcholism and killed it."  I don't feel

> particularly angry about that but I do feel very sad about that.  Even if

> you believe alcoholism is a disease, it is a disease with a choice.  It's

> not like cancer.  You can choose not to drink.  It brings us back to the

> whole erroneous idea that the nature of the artist is to suffer and burn

> out in self-destructiveness.  What a wonderful excuse that is to think

> you are fated to be self-destructive.  The woman in Big Sur tries

> continually to help Jack but he continues to choose the path he is on,

> which is a slow suicide.  >>

> 

>Good, bad or indifferent, jack always drank and jack always wrote. He

didn't

>"drown his gift in alcoholism." All the while he was drinking, taking

speed,

>and smoking dope, he was writing the beautiful words we all read today, but

>not because of the drinking, as I said before; IN SPITE OF IT.

> 

>If you think alcoholism is any less fatal or imprisoning than cancer, I'd

say

>you should do a little research on the subject. It's a complicated disease,

>and from the outside, it looks like drinkers SHOULD be able to choose,

should

>be able to stop. But if they could, they would. In the Big Book of

Alcoholics

>Anonymous, 1939, Bill W. (founder of AA) wrote:

>RARELY HAVE WE SEEN A PERSON FAIL who hs thoroughly followed our path.

Those

>who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give

>themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are

>constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such

>unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to be born that way.

> 

>He goes on to say, "Remember that we deal with alcohol--cunning, baffling,

>powerful! Without help it is too much for us." Alcoholics Anonymous, the

most

>recommended group in the world for recovering from alcoholism, still has a

>less than 10% success rate. That's not because it isn't a good program.

It's

>because alcoholism is a disease that grabs one by the soul, mind and body,

>all at once, and releasing its grip is, for most of us, impossible.

> 

>As for Billie, man, there is one sick puppy. That woman is despicable, and

>she's not "helping" jack at all in Big Sur. She's only interested in what

she

>can get from him. She's in love with Neal, and wants to use jack to get to

>Neal. In jack's mind, he sees the conspiracy:

>CAN IT BE it was all arranged by Dave Wain via Cody that I would meet

Billie

>and be driven mad and now they've got me alone in the woods and they are

>going to give me final poisons tonight that will utterly remove all my

>control so that in the morning I'll have to go to a hospital forever and

>never write another line?--Dave Wain is jealous because I wrote 10

>novels?--Billie has been assigned by Cody to get me to marry her so he'll

get

>all my money?

> 

>Here's jack with this beautiful blonde who wants to fuck all the time, but

>continually lays trips on him about how she has nothing to live for and is

>going to kill herself. Not only is she going to kill herself, but she's

going

>to take her 4-year-old son, Elliot, out with her. And well she should,

since

>she's messed him up beyond belief, encouraging the child to watch her and

her

>lovers fucking and to ask questions about it, but then when he asks too

many

>questions, she flips out, tells the kid she's going to beat him, beats him,

>and then tells him it's his fault she's beating him and because she feels

so

>bad about beating him, she has to kill herself. This, to a four-year-old. I

>say, no fucking wonder jack flipped out with Billie.

> 

>Near the end, when Billie digs an Elliot-sized grave, that little

wigged-out

>child is hysterical, screaming, "grabs the shovel and refuses [to] go near

>the hole," Billie plays a sadistic game with Elliot and jack, and when jack

>confronts her about it: "With the same quiet steady smile Billie says, 'Oh

>you're so fucking neurotic!'"

> 

>This woman is more insane than jack, more neurotic and twisted. As I was

>reading Big Sur this time, I was wondering what ever happened to her son,

>who'd be 40 or 41 today. He was one of the several children jack mentions

in

>Big Sur, including Michael McClure's "pretty little angel daughter...

coming

>in to hand me an extremely tiny flower," and the 8, 9 and 10 year old girls

>the pedophile Perry Yturbide says have "the most beautiful cans in town,"

to

>which jack thinks, "I realize he's dangerously insane," as he kidnaps the

>10-year-old and takes her off to molest her. But Billie, when jack tells

her

>this, only says, "That's the way he is, be sure to dig him"--

> 

>No, that whole scene contributed to his crack-up at Big Sur, not just his

own

>alcoholism (which lowered his defenses) but the users and misfits and

ghouls

>that somehow attached themselves to jack, comprising that Beatnik scene.

> 

>Read the book and maybe you'll see. No one can save anyone from anything,

and

>no one can ruin anyone's life. But when someone is sick, as jack was then,

>entering the last stages of alcoholism with weeks-long binges, it's very

easy

>to prey upon that person's weakness, to take advantage of him.

> 

>He didn't choose to be an alcoholic, and he didn't have the strength or

>self-honesty to take the cure. He's just like a billion other alcoholics.

If

>they could choose another way to be, they would.

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:03:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

Comments: To: letabor@cruzio.com

 

In a message dated 97-11-24 13:58:57 EST, leon asked:

 

<< 

 You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles

 horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own

 imagination?

 

 leon

 

  >>

If you're saying this is a fictionalized account, that would be the first

time I ever heard anyone say that.

 

Is that what you think?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:37:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Good Blonde

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Timothy Gallaher wrote:

 

> As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde.  This was first publshed in

The

> Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this

> in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones.  He wrote an introductory essay

to

> the stories, you could look there.  But you will need a university

library

> to find it I'll bet.

 

"city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."  Is "New York Scenes" the piece

that appears in "GB" as "Manhattan Sketches"?

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:52:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

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My personal favorite summing up of a life philosophy that I can accept is

from His Holiness the Pope of Straight Poop, Frank Zappa:

 

Do what you wanna

Do what you will

Just don't mess up

Your neighbor's thrill

And when you pay the bill

Kindly leave a little tip

To help the next poor sucker

On his one-way trip

 

     "The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing" (from "You Are What You Is")

 

Just my own two existential cents,

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:13:37 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>

Subject:      Herbert Huncke

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I am going to the libary today.  I will find Hebert Huncke's story.  He

wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story

tellers there ever was.  Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for

sex and companionship.

 

Is Hebert Huncke still alive?

 

Tristan

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:28:36 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Good Blonde

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:37 PM 11/24/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Timothy Gallaher wrote:

> 

>> As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde.  This was first publshed in

>The

>> Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this

>> in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones.  He wrote an introductory essay

>to

>> the stories, you could look there.  But you will need a university

>library

>> to find it I'll bet.

> 

>"city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."  Is "New York Scenes" the piece

>that appears in "GB" as "Manhattan Sketches"?

> 

>Jym

> 

> 

 

Yes, Manhattan Sketches is what I erroneously called New York Scenes (I

didn't remember the name) but cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde I am fairly sure.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:08:01 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

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-----Original Message-----

From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 11:03 AM

Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

 

>In a message dated 97-11-24 13:58:57 EST, leon asked:

> 

><< 

> You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles

> horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own

> imagination?

> 

> leon

> 

>  >>

>If you're saying this is a fictionalized account, that would be the first

>time I ever heard anyone say that.

> 

>Is that what you think?

>.-

I don't expect to learn the full truth of what went down there. Others may

know, I do not know. I have seen people doing crazy and acting it out on

their children, that is not impossible to have happened.

 

I have never myself witnessed chidren of that age observing adults sexual

performance, but I do know it is a fact of ordinary life in many poor

communities where children share the living space, sometimes even bed, with

their parents.

 

I do know there was experimentaion going on in Big Sur a few years later in

the sixties. I remeber in particular one couple who moved from the North

Beach to Big Sur. The man was a former teacher who ran the Cellar  where his

wife was a waitress. This was in the end of the fifties. He was no wild

maniac, but a very conscientious nice guy, although by 1965 he did succumb

to heroin. Before that he was telling me how he thought their kids blossomed

under the freedom and honest exposure to natural phenomena as they occured.

I was of course very interested and for a couple of years followed his

stories about how wonderfully the kids were developing, including their

reactions to what they were observing. To repeat, I have no personal first

hand knowledge about children observing adult sexual activity, although when

we lived in the Flower Farm community, my daughter had her own bed in our

one room. She was three years old, but I can tell you that she is a

wonderful person with no apparent ill effects.  I am prepared to believe

that it may not necessarily be as much of a  horror movie to them as is

suggested in the post. I can expect a helplessly hysterical  out of control

mother to act out crazily with her child. It happens tragically a lot more

than is publicly acknowledged.

 

What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that populated

his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the

people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he

wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything

that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.

 

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:35:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Alcock, Denis" <alcockd@BESTWESTERN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Herbert Huncke

 

Huncke died about a few years ago.  There is an excellent documentary

called 'Huncke and Me', which is a candid interview with Huncke shortly

before his death.

 

Denis Alcock

 

> ----------

> From:         tristan saldana[SMTP:hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU]

> Reply To:     BEAT-L: Beat Generation List

> Sent:         Monday, November 24, 1997 1:13 PM

> To:   BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:      Herbert Huncke

> 

> I am going to the libary today.  I will find Hebert Huncke's story.

> He

> wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story

> tellers there ever was.  Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for

> sex and companionship.

> 

> Is Hebert Huncke still alive?

> 

> Tristan

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:54:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Herbert Huncke

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.HPP.3.91.971124120646.8908A-100000@csun1.csun.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>I am going to the libary today.  I will find Hebert Huncke's story.  He

>wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story

>tellers there ever was.  Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for

>sex and companionship.

> 

>Is Hebert Huncke still alive?

> 

>Tristan

 

Hunke is dead. See:

http://www.bookzen.com/books/068815266X_b.html

 

for details on The Herbert Hunke Reader, Ben Schafer, Editor.

 

In the near future Ben will be discussing The Herbert Hunke Reader on radio

statin WORT-FM, Madison, WI. There will be others who knew HH joining in

the conversation. Hope to get it transcribed so it can be posted to the

Beat List.

 

j grant

 

                Small Press Publishers and Authors

                  Display Books Free At BookZen

                                592,901 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-01-97

                         http://www.bookzen.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:46:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Herbert Huncke

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.HPP.3.91.971124120646.8908A-100000@csun1.csun.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

tristan

as far as i know huncke died in 1996 ( i could be wrong abt the date,

but he is quite dead) i suggest that you pick up a copy of _the herbert

Huncke reader_ which is quite excellent, containing unpublished work and

excerpts from all his other books, its available from Waterrow books

(www.waterrowbooks.com)

but - yep definately read this book

yrs

derek

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, tristan saldana wrote:

> I am going to the libary today.  I will find Hebert Huncke's story.  He

> wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story

> tellers there ever was.  Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for

> sex and companionship.

> 

> Is Hebert Huncke still alive?

> 

> Tristan

> 

 

****************************

Derek beaulieu

House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)

#5-933 3rd ave nw

calgary, alberta, canada, t2n0j7

"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition"

                                        -Jack Kerouac

*****************

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:08:30 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Good Blonde

Comments: To: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <199711241953.NAA02242@core0.mx.execpc.com>

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citycitycity IS in "Good Blonde"--I'm looking at it right now...

 

Don

 

The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is

really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:47:23 -0500

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From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Herbert Huncke

In-Reply-To:  <E1D34B8573D0D0119F350000F863286544B5C1@phxopsexc00.bestwestern.com>

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> Huncke died about a few years ago.  There is an excellent documentary

> called 'Huncke and Me', which is a candid interview with Huncke shortly

> before his death.

 

Huh?  Haven't heard about this one.  Any more info on it or any of you

captialistic literary peddlers can tell me a little about this?

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:12:50 -0800

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Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Herbert Huncke

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971124134358.63502A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

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Thanks very much for the info.  I am very sad to hear that Huncke's gone.

He and Corso are my favorites.

 

Tristan

 

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

 

> tristan

> as far as i know huncke died in 1996 ( i could be wrong abt the date,

> but he is quite dead) i suggest that you pick up a copy of _the herbert

> Huncke reader_ which is quite excellent, containing unpublished work and

> excerpts from all his other books, its available from Waterrow books

> (www.waterrowbooks.com)

> but - yep definately read this book

> yrs

> derek

> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, tristan saldana wrote:

> > I am going to the libary today.  I will find Hebert Huncke's story.  He

> > wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story

> > tellers there ever was.  Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for

> > sex and companionship.

> >

> > Is Hebert Huncke still alive?

> >

> > Tristan

> >

> 

> ****************************

> Derek beaulieu

> House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)

> #5-933 3rd ave nw

> calgary, alberta, canada, t2n0j7

> "remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition"

>                                         -Jack Kerouac

> *****************

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Good Blonde

In-Reply-To:  <199711241953.NAA02242@core0.mx.execpc.com>

MIME-version: 1.0

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On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:

 

> Timothy Gallaher wrote:

> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde.  This was first publshed in

> 

> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."

 

There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out

there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged

edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science

fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:53:06 -0600

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Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

Comments: To: Sara Straw <saras@sisna.com>

In-Reply-To:  <34771F89.58FB@sisna.com>

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On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Sara Straw wrote:

 

> > As Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.

> > Cordially,

> > Mike Skau

> 

> I give up, what does THAT mean?

> It sounds real cute, but doesn't compute.

> s

> 

Abbie explained that isms (capitalism, communism, socialism--Judaism,

Catholicism, Buddhism, etc.)--that is, all artificial organizations and

groups with set beliefs, principles, etc.--belong to the past (wasms). He

felt that we had to leave all that behind because it infringed on the

importance of individual rights (see _The Best of Abbie Hoffman_, pp.

376-77, where he spells it _wasisms_; when I heard him speak at Naropa

Institute years ago, he pronounced it _wasms_).

Hope this helps.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:54:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD

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---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj:    Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

Date:    97-11-24 17:54:57 EST

From:    AngelMindz

To:      letabor@cruzio.com

 

In a message dated 97-11-24 15:37:55 EST, you write:

 

<<  I can expect a helplessly hysterical  out of control mother to act ou=

t

crazily with her child. It happens tragically a lot more than is publicly

acknowledged.>>

 

I don't want to get off on a tangent about sexual abuse of children, beca=

use

that's a very complicated subject that deserves its own thread on another

list. But somehow your comment reminded me of this anecdote about Dorothy

Parker (who, by the way, wrote a scathing review of The Subterraneans whe=

n it

came out!) and a mother who seemed quite in control and not the least

hysterical:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----

---=20

Lilly (from Peter Fiebleman=92s biography of Lillian Hellman)

 

     The story Lillian had asked me (P. F.) to tell that day was short. I=

t

happened one evening in Los Angeles when I walked over to have a drink wi=

th

Dorothy (Parker). A friend of Dorothy=92s, a well-known actress living in=

 the

neighborhood, had just come to visit with her little boy, who was six.

     The actress kept her son in a vise-like grip on her lap and played w=

ith

him while she talked. She could not let the child alone; her hands wander=

ed

over his mouth and face and chest and crotch and legs and feet and toes a=

nd

then started all over again, while the child squirmed and wriggled to get=

 off

her lap. At last he slipped out of his mother=92s grip, jumped to the flo=

or and

ran into the next room to be alone and play.

     "I KNOW I=92m prejudiced, " the actress said, smiling, "after all, h=

e=92s

only six=85but he is a beautiful little boy, isn=92t he?"

     "Yes, he is," Dorothy said. "Strange=85he never married."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----

------------

<< What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that

populated

 his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by t=

he

 people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he

 wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everyt=

hing

 that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.>>

 

Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feel=

s

like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to

believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's book=

s?=20

 

I don't see jack walking around possessed by paranoid delusions on a dail=

y

basis. He was familiar with visions; he had them all his life. His writin=

g

style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,

faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.

The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active

participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.

 

Big Sur reads like life, and I have no reason to question any parts of it=

, or

to seek redemption for the characters who, through stupidity, ignorance, =

or

emotional illness, were a part of his descent into madness.

 

Too bad Lew Welch isn't on the list to tell us what he saw there.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:15:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Good Blonde

In-Reply-To:  <199711241953.NAA02242@core0.mx.execpc.com>

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Actually, cityCityCITY is in my copy of Good Blonde...

 

 

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:

 

> Timothy Gallaher wrote:

> 

> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde.  This was first publshed in

> The

> > Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this

> > in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones.  He wrote an introductory essay

> to

> > the stories, you could look there.  But you will need a university

> library

> > to find it I'll bet.

> 

> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."  Is "New York Scenes" the piece

> that appears in "GB" as "Manhattan Sketches"?

> 

> Jym

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:12:37 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without anger

MIME-Version: 1.0

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You_Be Fine wrote:

> 

> In a message dated 97-11-24 00:08:13 EST, you write:

> 

> <<

>  on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction

>  for it's own sake.  in the event that one feels JK may have been

>  ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly

>  means this is the proper path for most of us.  >>

> 

> Yeah, the artist/poet myth that allows for unchecked drinking and

> self-destructive behaviour is romantic and bogus and SICK. The

> self-destruction that jack suffered was NOT deliberate, nor was it connected

> to his gift... his "angel mind," if you will (hee hee hee)... He was an

> artist IN SPITE of it, not BECAUSE of it. He was an alcoholic, an angel, a

> vessel, a drunk.

 

i think the evidence on what you're suggesting here -- especially given

the capitalization -- is far from settled yet.  I'm currently reading a

wonderful study titled Touched with Fire: Manic Depressive Illness and

the Artistic Temperament.  What I've gleaned so far is that quite a lot

of study is currently moving concerning the connections of chemistry and

creativity -- and whether the correlation is one of "because" or "in

spite of".  And it seems to me that though the author may be leaning

towards an in spite of notion (with the qualifier that medical treatment

of the illness occurs), it seems to me so far that the evidence is far

from showing that point.  The depth of experience chronicled by Jack is

connected to his gift as a writer for certain.  Not just anyone can

chronicle such experiences.  But the experiencing of these things in the

first place involves a different than average connection with the world

and perceptions.

 

The myth you suggest as SICK is i would agree SICK when it is the basis

for people trying to imitate self-destructions in hope of gaining the

writing gift.  But perhaps it is also SICK to believe that all social

and scientific knowledge of these notions was determined pre-1940.  Both

myths have force in society and neither one alone is the answer.  In the

book you refer to in another post, it suggests the wording that more

will be revealed.  In the case of connections between brain chemistry

and creativity and the nature of these correlations it seems this is

definitely the case -- the jury is certainly out.

 

david rhaesa

TIAA P&D Disabled

Salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:17:07 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

Comments: To: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <msg1274808.thr-3c78858a.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

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On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >Why am I prolonging this?

> >I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes

> >with the

> >audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"

> >I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.

> 

>      you mean the one with Edie in the background?  that's what i

> thought when i saw the ad too.

> 

If you look at the photos carefully, you'll see that Jack's got his chin

lifted more in one of them than in the other. In addition, that is not

Edie in the background, despite what the text says for the photo in _The

Jack Kerouac Collection_ booklet (p. 20): it's Joyce Johnson, and the same

photo was used on the cover of her _Minor Characters_ and for the poster

for the _Kerouac_ film. Perhaps this explains why the women could be

airbrushed from the photos; apparently they are so interchangeable that

their identities are not important (said with tongue in cheek).

Mike Skau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:21:20 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

You are suggesting that you have no reason to doubt Jack's ability to see

things as they were at the time:

 

<<SNIP>>

>His writing

>style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,

>faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.

>The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active

>participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.

 

Does this excerpt fit your faith in Jack's ability to see things as they

were at the time? Is this what you bellieve was Jack's state of mind always

"on a daily basis" when he wrote other things?

<<SNIP>>

>CAN IT BE it was all arranged by Dave Wain via Cody that I would meet

Billie

>and be driven mad and now they've got me alone in the woods and they are

>going to give me final poisons tonight that will utterly remove all my

>control so that in the morning I'll have to go to a hospital forever and

>never write another line?--Dave Wain is jealous because I wrote 10

>novels?--Billie has been assigned by Cody to get me to marry her so he'll

get

>all my money?

 

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 3:02 PM

Subject: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

 

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj:    Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

Date:    97-11-24 17:54:57 EST

From:    AngelMindz

To:      letabor@cruzio.com

 

In a message dated 97-11-24 15:37:55 EST, you write:

 

<<  I can expect a helplessly hysterical  out of control mother to act out

crazily with her child. It happens tragically a lot more than is publicly

acknowledged.>>

 

I don't want to get off on a tangent about sexual abuse of children, because

that's a very complicated subject that deserves its own thread on another

list. But somehow your comment reminded me of this anecdote about Dorothy

Parker (who, by the way, wrote a scathing review of The Subterraneans when

it

came out!) and a mother who seemed quite in control and not the least

hysterical:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

---

Lilly (from Peter Fieblemans biography of Lillian Hellman)

 

     The story Lillian had asked me (P. F.) to tell that day was short. It

happened one evening in Los Angeles when I walked over to have a drink with

Dorothy (Parker). A friend of Dorothys, a well-known actress living in the

neighborhood, had just come to visit with her little boy, who was six.

     The actress kept her son in a vise-like grip on her lap and played with

him while she talked. She could not let the child alone; her hands wandered

over his mouth and face and chest and crotch and legs and feet and toes and

then started all over again, while the child squirmed and wriggled to get

off

her lap. At last he slipped out of his mothers grip, jumped to the floor

and

ran into the next room to be alone and play.

     "I KNOW Im prejudiced, " the actress said, smiling, "after all, hes

only sixbut he is a beautiful little boy, isnt he?"

     "Yes, he is," Dorothy said. "Strangehe never married."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

------------

<< What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that

populated

his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the

people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he

wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything

that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.>>

 

Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feels

like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to

believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's books?

 

I don't see jack walking around possessed by paranoid delusions on a daily

basis. He was familiar with visions; he had them all his life. His writing

style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,

faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.

The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active

participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.

 

Big Sur reads like life, and I have no reason to question any parts of it,

or

to seek redemption for the characters who, through stupidity, ignorance, or

emotional illness, were a part of his descent into madness.

 

Too bad Lew Welch isn't on the list to tell us what he saw there.

.-

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:20:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>Abbie explained that isms (capitalism, communism, socialism--Judaism,

>Catholicism, Buddhism, etc.)--that is, all artificial organizations and

>groups with set beliefs, principles, etc.--belong to the past (wasms).

 

     also, the very fact that ism institutions establish rigid "party

platforms" forces them to become outdated from the moment they're

formed, because they are resistant to change, also, my own slant here,

something conceived in an instant in time to become an ism is dated to

that time, and is outdated thereafter because of change.  one of the

reasons that the many major religions that remain alive today are doing

so is because they've become flexible enough to adapt to change a morph

as necessary.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:53:06 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Good Blonde

In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600 from

              <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

 

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600 Jeff Taylor said:

>On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:

> 

>> Timothy Gallaher wrote:

>> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde.  This was first publshed in

>> 

>> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."

> 

>There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out

>there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged

>edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science

>fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."

> 

>*******

>Jeff Taylor

>taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

>*******

 

 Thanks for noting this interesting bibliographical development.  Wonder how it

 came about?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:00:27 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

> >In a message dated 97-11-24 13:58:57 EST, leon asked:

> >

> ><<

> > You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles

> > horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own

> > imagination?

> >

> > leon

> >

> >  >>

> >If you're saying this is a fictionalized account, that would be the first

> >time I ever heard anyone say that.

> >

> >Is that what you think?

> >.-

> I don't expect to learn the full truth of what went down there. Others may

> know, I do not know. I have seen people doing crazy and acting it out on

> their children, that is not impossible to have happened.

 

<snip>

 

> What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that populated

> his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the

> people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he

> wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything

> that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.

> 

> leon

 

At very least for sure.  I imagine that even if we were people involved

we could not know to what extent our actions contributed to paranoid

visions and to what extent these perceptions would have happened

regardless of what actions we took.

 

Also at the very least it is important to recall the words attributed to

WSB on other posts in other threads of it being important to keep in

mind that Jack was "an author".  While the stories he tells are

sometimes autobiographical and sometimes historical, they are nearly

always considered to be "fiction."

 

And even if they weren't, and despite Jack's famous memory, the

perceptions one has of events during a crack-up (based on my own

experiences and others i've known) are certainly only one point of view

of the events that transpired.  It is difficult to expect anything akin

to objectivity ever concerning such matters.

 

None of this is to detract from the wonders of Jack's artistic

contributions.  It is merely a limit on how we understand and interpret

them.  His contributions at describing vividly the wonders and horrors

that life can present are a wonderful gift to all of us -- and hopefully

to readers for decades and even centuries to come.

 

and the writing on this thread has definitely hooked me on Big Sur being

a book i ought to read and will certainly obtain in Denver.  I leave

tomorrow.

 

hope y'all keep the Beat-L hopping while i'm gone -- i'll read the

digests when i return.  perhaps i'll find a denver story or two to tell

as well.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:13:59 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Herbert Huncke

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

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You just gotta love someone who titles his autobiography "Guilty Of

Everything"!

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:16:22 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Good Blonde

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jeff Taylor wrote:

 

> There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out

> there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged

> edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science

> fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."

 

Thanks, Jeff, for clearing this up.  I was feeling very confused indeed.

Guess I need to track down a copy of the revised edition now.

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:25:12 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

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-----Original Message-----

From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 3:02 PM

Subject: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

 

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj:    Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

Date:    97-11-24 17:54:57 EST

From:    AngelMindz

To:      letabor@cruzio.com

 

In a message dated 97-11-24 15:37:55 EST, you write:

 

----------------------------------------------

 

I said:

 

<< What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that

populated

his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the

people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he

wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything

that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.>>

 

You say:

 

>Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feels

>like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to

>believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's books?

 

 

I say:

 

So far I haven't advanced any theory. Merely looked at what Jack wrote down.

He writes a story describing deranged behavior that was going on in the

cabin in the woods. He also describes his paranoid fears that his mind

painted for him.

 

I called attention to it because you seemed to me to leap over the facts

with YOUR theories that it was those others who drove Jack crazy at that

time.

 If you see my questions as trivial, that is your evaluation. But since you

mention theorizing, it is true that in my mind as well as in yours there

appear to be cetain explanations more plausible than others.

 

This IS my theory of what happened at Big Sur:

 

Stretched speed and booze too far holed up in the cabin in the woods.

 

The more plausible explanation in my mind for Jack's paranoid breakdown in

that visit in Big Sur was, and this is pure speculation, his mind driven

into the paranoid shadows that a few days on speed and alcohol that are

easily recognied by  people who are familiar with what typically can happen.

I have seen quite a few people who after three days of overstimulating and

fatiguing their minds with speed, get very very delusional and paranoid. It

may well be that this was the time when Jack stretched too far his acustomed

runs on speed to take it over the edge holed up in that cabin., anxious to

use all these elements in a new work.

 

 I would not call it a theory, but that  is more consistent with what I know

about Jack, the way he wrote, the way he used speed a lot for his writing.

Just like on acid people had some lofty trips full of beauty and vision, and

a bummer where from the shadows of their unsettled issues sprung out

monsters that threatened to devour them. I just don't buy your perception

that Jack was fair mindedly and in charge of his mental faculties driven to

madness by these mentally ill others.

 

You say:

 

>I don't see jack walking around possessed by paranoid delusions on a daily

>basis. He was familiar with visions; he had them all his life. His writing

>style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,

>faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.

>The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active

>participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.>

 

>Big Sur reads like life, and I have no reason to question any parts of it,

or

>to seek redemption for the characters who, through stupidity, ignorance, or

>emotional illness, were a part of his descent into madness.

 

Too bad Lew Welch isn't on the list to tell us what he saw there.

.

I agree with you there.

 

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:07:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Good Blonde

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997112418554094@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

My copy is from 1993 and it sounds exactly like the one described below...

 

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600 Jeff Taylor said:

> >On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:

> >

> >> Timothy Gallaher wrote:

> >> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde.  This was first publshed in

> >>

> >> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."

> >

> >There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out

> >there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged

> >edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science

> >fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."

> >

> >*******

> >Jeff Taylor

> >taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

> >*******

> 

>  Thanks for noting this interesting bibliographical development.  Wonder how

 it

>  came about?

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:21:21 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Resent-From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM>

Comments:     Originally-From: Emma Lee <ELYBC@CUNYVM>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: (FWD) Comparative Religions

In-Reply-To:  Your message of Mon, 24 Nov 97 10:16:59 EST

 

For Rinaldo...an alternative text....Notice the interesting variations.

 

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

This is from my files, which has some duplicates, some new ones, and

even some different ones.  ENJOY!

--ely

 =======================================================================

A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS OF WORLD RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHIES

 

Taoism:  Shit happens.

Confucianism:  Confucius say, "Shit happens."

Buddhism:  If shit happens, it really isn't shit.

Zen:  What is the sound of shit happening?

Hinduism:  This shit happened before.

Islam:  If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.

Protestant:  Let shit happen to someone else.

Catholic:  If shit happens, you deserve it.

Judaism:  Why does this shit always happen to us?

Jehovah's Witness:  Let us in and we'll tell you why shit happens.

Hare Krishna:  Shit happens, shit happens, shit happens, shit happens.

Pagan:  Shit is part of the Goddess, too.

Scientology:  This book gets rid of your shit.

Existentialism:  Everything is shit, so let's be depressed.

Nihilism:  Everything is shit, so let's blow it up.

Satanism:  I made shit happen and I'm glad about it.

Solipcism:  This shit happens to me alone, but I am the cause of it.

Atheism:  I don't believe this shit.

Agnosticism:  What is this shit?

New Age:  For $300 I can help you achieve Shit Happens Awareness.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:50:35 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> You_Be Fine wrote:

 

> No, that whole scene contributed to his crack-up at Big Sur, not just

> his own

> alcoholism (which lowered his defenses) but the users and misfits and

> ghouls

> that somehow attached themselves to jack, comprising that Beatnik

> scene.

> 

> Read the book and maybe you'll see. No one can save anyone from

> anything, and

> no one can ruin anyone's life. But when someone is sick, as jack was

> then,

> entering the last stages of alcoholism with weeks-long binges, it's

> very easy

> to prey upon that person's weakness, to take advantage of him.

> 

> He didn't choose to be an alcoholic, and he didn't have the strength or

> self-honesty to take the cure. He's just like a billion other

> alcoholics. If

> they could choose another way to be, they would.

 

I have read Big Sur. Twice.  But given your interpretation, it does make

me wonder if we're reading the same book.  I do believe that Jack's

writing is true to what he saw happening in his own mind. The middle to

end of the book is probably one of the best written records ever of

delirium tremens.  But with all your knowledge about alcoholism you fail

to see how someone writing in this state is suffering from acute delirium

and paranoia.  He writes (on page 191) "...I feel a great ghastly hatred

of myself and everything, the empty feeling far from being the usual

relief is now as tho I've been robbed of my spinal power right down the

middle on purpose by a great witching force--I feel evil forces gathering

down all around me, from her, the kid, the very walls of the cabin, the

trees, even the sudden thought of Dave Wain and Romana is evil..." Given

your literal interpretation, then not only is Billie and the kid and Dave

and Romana out to get him, but so are the trees and the walls of the

cabin.  You have to see, as Leon accurately has been pointed out as well,

that anyone in this condition is not exactly in a sound state of mind.

My assessment of Billie also is much more sympathetic than yours.  I

think (and this is only from what Jack wrote in Big Sur) that she truly

understood him and wanted to pull him from the brink of self-destruction,

but even she eventually realizes that he cannot accept her love because

he cannot love himself.  I also do not agree with your assessment of

alcoholism, "if they could choose to be another way they would," because

it borders on fringe of saying "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic,"

and on an even greater scale, that people are powerless to change their

own lives no matter what kind of emotional trauma they have experienced

or path they are on.  The choice to be otherwise is always there.

DC

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:08:32 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

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nice law. it is very true and evident in the every church in

almost every century but most evident when the catholic church

 started celebrated christmas during winter time to appease the

peasents.

> formed, because they are resistant to change, also, my own slant here,

> something conceived in an instant in time to become an ism is dated to

> that time, and is outdated thereafter because of change.  one of the

> reasons that the many major religions that remain alive today are doing

> so is because they've become flexible enough to adapt to change a morph

> as necessary.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:41:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

Let's see if I can clarify what I believe:

 

I believe jack kerouac was an alcoholic, and that it's the nature of an

alcoholic not to be able to make the healthy choices required for changes.

This belief of mine is highly personal, but I didn't get words to understand

or describe it until I entered the world of 12-Step programs 12 years ago.

 

I believe that jack was highly gifted, and furthermore, that he existed on a

higher plane of consciousness than most people ever do.

 

I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that

jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was cracking

up.

 

I believe Big Sur is autobiographical. I've never heard any information to

the contrary, although I have heard jack quoted as saying it was

autobiographical.

 

I follow the book quite literally, and with every paragraph, every page I

turn, what he says makes more sense and rings more true.

 

Like everyone, my affinity for a certain book is founded on my own

experience, my own frame of reference. Because I've lived enough of the

events in Big Sur, I find them all very believable, and jack's telling of

them reasoned and illuminating.

 

To me, this book is a masterpiece. I just re-read it on Saturday before

posting my first comment to the list. I think I'll read it again, and of

course, I'll be thinking of all your comments while I do.

 

But I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that Big Sur should be seen as

literature, as opposed to a case study in a nervous breakdown, lived and

recounted by the one who experienced it.

 

Recently I read Sombrero Fallout by Richard Brautigan, and in the main

subplot (since there are about five plots, I think of them all as subplots,

but then, I'm no scholar, and proud of that fact; just a reader) what I saw

was the beginning of the end of Brautigan's life, or as Judith said about Big

Sur in the first place, "It was like reading a suicide note." I believed

Brautigan was foreshadowing his own suicide, and the fact that he did

ultimately die violently at his own hand supports my belief, at least to me.

What he went through was very familiar to me on a personal level (as a member

in good standing of the Crack-up Club, along with David Rhaesa and some

others too shy to talk about it).

 

Same thing with jack and reading Big Sur. I don't see any reason why I should

look for metaphor and all those painfully intellectual literary analyses (ew,

I'm so smart) when the words he wrote are all right there in front of me, in

perfect order, exactly as he meant for them to be read.

 

I really believe (and I'm not suggesting anyone who's participated in this

discussion so far falls into this description) that people are often so

uncomfortable with "the lunatic ravings" of a holy man, because there is so

much truth in them, that they need to retreat into rationalization, seeking

explanations rather than taking what's there on face value.

 

That's where I'm coming from. I don't try to figure jack out. I just let his

words transport me there.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:05:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

 

In a message dated 97-11-24 21:42:35 EST, DC wrote:

 

<< 

 I have read Big Sur. Twice.  But given your interpretation, it does make

 me wonder if we're reading the same book.  I do believe that Jack's

 writing is true to what he saw happening in his own mind. The middle to

 end of the book is probably one of the best written records ever of

 delirium tremens.  But with all your knowledge about alcoholism you fail

 to see how someone writing in this state is suffering from acute delirium

 and paranoia.   >>

 

What can I tell you? My interpretation is mine, and yours is yours. I don't

know much about delirium tremens (although I'm going to do some research

now), but I don't think you just get them one night and then they go away.

The DTs, in my limited education on that subject, are present in the latest

stages of alcoholism, and it seems to me people don't experience them while

they are drunk, but when alcohol is withdrawn. Of course, in deference to

your comments, I will look for information on this subject so I can be better

informed.

 

And yes, I believe "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic." Alcoholism is a

disease whose only cure is to quit drinking. But you're still an alcoholic

after you quit, if you get lucky enough, and get enough strength to quit.

 

But you failed to make your syllogism with your final "extrapolation" on this

subject. I do believe people can change most things in their lives and

overcome great trauma. There are things that are bigger and more powerful

than many people, and alcoholism is one of those things. It is, as I stated,

a disease, covered by most medical insurance plans. And it is fatal, as it

was in jack's case, as it was in Dylan Thomas's case, as Marie mentioned

earlier, as it is in so many cases.

 

I have a little brother who's now dying of alcoholism. He's three years

younger than me and he has two types of chronic hepatitis, an enlarged liver,

diabetes, is blind in one eye, and was recently diagnosed with cancer of the

tongue. He's had his license taken away a dozen times. He's had a dozen

accidents while driving, most of which were hit-and-runs. He's lost a dozen

jobs, a million friends, watched others die, ruined his life, been in

treatment repeatedly, but guess what? He just can't quit drinking.

 

I've known him since the day he was born, and I know this is not the life he

would have chosen for himself. I used to get angry with him because I

believed somehow that he was doing this on purpose. I cut him out of my life,

I reported him to the police, I confiscated a gun from his house. But the

fact that I had known him as a child, and had seen where he came from, and

finally admitting I didn't understand alcoholism and needed to, made me come

to believe that "if he could make any other choice, he would." If it were

simply a matter of choice, there would be no alcoholics in the world.

 

I stand by what I believe, and I apply it to jack, and to all the other

alcoholics in the world who lose the fight.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:15:53 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject:      'Last time I comitted suicide' reaches Australia

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The movie 'The last time I committed suicide' is available on video, in

Australia.  I don't think any Cinema's showed it in Australia.

------------------------------------------------------------------.o0

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178  Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:16:48 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

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You_Be Fine wrote:

> 

> I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that

> jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was cracking

> up.

 

 

the above comment makes no sense, i too, am not a scholar (but i am

neither proud or ashamed, i never heard that it was that bad a field)

but i am pretty sure that cracking up (been there done that) means that

what your seeing often isn't what is happening. I find big sur to be a

good read, with great value. But as I read it make me believe that it

isn't an accurate reflection of what was before him but what was an

accurate reflection of what he might of seen. Not that it isn't a dark

and evil world to look at, it is just a little darker to those depressed

by booze.

patricia

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:26:40 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> You_Be Fine wrote:

> >

> > I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that

> > jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was

 cracking

> > up.

> 

> the above comment makes no sense, i too, am not a scholar (but i am

> neither proud or ashamed, i never heard that it was that bad a field)

> but i am pretty sure that cracking up (been there done that) means that

> what your seeing often isn't what is happening. I find big sur to be a

> good read, with great value. But as I read it make me believe that it

> isn't an accurate reflection of what was before him but what was an

> accurate reflection of what he might of seen. Not that it isn't a dark

> and evil world to look at, it is just a little darker to those depressed

> by booze.

> patricia

> p

 

this is a very complicated thread and certainly requires the open-minded

considerations of realities that i've found so wonderful about the

supportive people on the list.

 

it seems a question of perspective.  the reality of Jack's account and

the reality of alternative readings or potentially of other characters

can ALL be REAL.  i once believed that in order to get out of leather

straps in a hospital i combined understandings from Kafka and Leary

notions and became a horse and broke through the straps.  the experience

was REAL for me.  But it is just as real for me to believe the alternate

account that after having passed out from any number of exhausting

influences the straps were removed.  Both are REAL.  Which happened is

one of those trivial historical questions (oops letting my colours show

there a bit concerning history!).

 

The realm of experience and the mysteries behind Being are still so

complicated that we cannot begin to understand them.  We have to find

beliefs that work for us and be open-minded about other's beliefs as

well.  But we need, i feel, to also guard against letting our beliefs

(which i've done many times) move from the range of belief into dogmas

that destroy the entire sense of believing.

 

It seems that this thread demonstrates the difficulty and complexity of

the experiences many of us have been through and continue to go through

-- and all our journeys are different -- and also, i think, shows a bit

of the wonderful community that exists here in which these notions can

be found in literature and tossed around and examined and thought about

and interpreted sometimes changing our minds milliseconds after we

thought our minds were made up.  It is a lovely group.

 

And with that, i shift to digest and pack for Denver.

 

Happy Thanksgiving y'all.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:40:14 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

In-Reply-To:  <347A5130.177B@sunflower.com> from "Patricia Elliott" at Nov 24,

              97 10:16:48 pm

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Patricia Elliot wrote:

> but i am pretty sure that cracking up (been there done that) means that

> what your seeing often isn't what is happening. I find big sur to be a

> good read, with great value. But as I read it make me believe that it

> isn't an accurate reflection of what was before him but what was an

> accurate reflection of what he might of seen. Not that it isn't a dark

> and evil world to look at, it is just a little darker to those depressed

> by booze.

 

Well, in my opinion what Kerouac went through (in real life at Big

Sur) is not that unusual.  I think his greatness lay not in the

fact that he experienced this "breakdown" but rather that he

wrote about it.  It was his courage to tell the truth that made

him important, because the truths need to be told for society

to heal itself.  That's how I read his books: as attempts to

spiritually heal the world.  Inspired by Jesus and Buddha

(and Emerson and Melville and Dostoevsky etc) ...

 

All of which is just a segue for me to mention that my

new piece about William S. Burroughs, featuring some excellent

words posted to the BEAT-L by Patricia Elliott (this time I

spelled it right) about his after-death ceremonies.  It's

called Sliced Bardo and it's at:

 

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/SlicedBardo/

 

Okay, back to the discussion.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                    |

|                                                     |

|     Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|      (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                     |

|          "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"       |

|            (a real book, like on paper)             |

|               also at http://coffeehousebook.com    |

|                                                     |

|                   *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                     |

|        "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |

|                                       -- Ric Ocasek |

-------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:01:37 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: new to the list

Comments: To: VegasDaddy@AOL.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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> Subject:

>         Re: is this still beat-l?

>   Date:

>         Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:20:04 -0500

>   From:

>         Anthony Celentano <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>

> 

> 

> I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and atheism

> and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a

> discussion about actual Beat literature.  I mean, I could discuss the

> pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all

> this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack Kerouac

> was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been

> amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media.  I think

> it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any

> vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions

> about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured

> something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into

> that magic.  I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I

> contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats?  Thanks, and

> perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm

> talking about,

> 

> Anthony

 

 

 

Welcome, Anthony!

 

Hi there how you doing?  Not so very long ago, i too, was very new to

the list--I got in right as the last episode of the Great Kerouac Estate

Wars was going on.  I felt the same as you, but the longer i am here the

more i discover that if we don't get a feel for who the people behind

the posts are, the conversations are rather boring.  So i welcomed this

last foray into the religion issue.  That issue was in fact very

relative to the beat generation discussion.  Look at the varied

religions you have within the core group of writers--you had a nice

jewish boy and a nice catholic boy who both chose buddhism instead.

 

So to give you an idea who i am, beyond the above garbled paragraph:

 

I'm 28, live in marion iowa and i am a kerouac freak.  That's why i am

here.

 

I will also be looking forward to your posts on corso--i have only read

a few peices of his here and there, mostly the stuff in anthologies.

We're all here to learn, so teach, brother, teach.  Teach us about

corso.

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:20:01 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Herbert Huncke

Comments: To: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <199711250020.SAA21569@core0.mx.execpc.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

You've also gotta love the last paragraph of its opening chapter:

 

        But I'll tell you straight . . . Well, I obviously won't tell you

        straight, because that would be a lie.  Except for this business

        of methadone, I'd have committed suicide years ago.  Right now I'm

        living from one day to the next, that's the way I feel.  I do love

        the world. It really is beautiful, so incredibly beautiful (11).

 

Those last two lines kill me.  I have already read through the book

quickly to get a feel for what he's doing.  I could hear it right away.

Huncke like all the other Beats show such love for life and human beings

even in the sordid refuse of society (in Huncke's case _as_ a member of

that so called refuse). But there's something even more special about

Huncke's tales and the way that he tells them: they are nothing but

'straight.' Actually he and Corso both share this majestic quality as

personalities, as narrators and poets. He was, as McClure would call Jack,

the sensorium.  Huncke was a genuine aesthete, Lazarus of New York and

Tiresias of its wastelands.  Beautiful Huncke has something to tell us.  I

can see why Allen, Jack, and Bill hung around the guy.  He had the rhythm

and the vision and crystaline humility.

 

Tristan

 

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:

 

> You just gotta love someone who titles his autobiography "Guilty Of

> Everything"!

> 

> Jym

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:43:44 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:40 PM 11/23/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>Why am I prolonging this?

>>I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes

>>with the

>>audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"

>>I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.

> 

>     you mean the one with Edie in the background?  that's what i

>thought when i saw the ad too.

> 

> 

 

Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis.  It would be

interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did

any good.  After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,

so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?

WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:48:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      BigSur misconceptions/miscommunications

Comments: To: letabor@cruzio.com

 

In a message dated 97-11-24 22:16:44 EST, Leon responded:

 

<<  If you see my questions as trivial, that is your evaluation. >>

Leon, I don't think your questions, or your responses, are trivial, and I

hope you don't have the impression that I do. I don't know how you came up

with this impression, since I didn't say it, nor did I think it.

 

  <<I just don't buy your perception that Jack was fair mindedly and in

charge of his mental faculties driven to madness by these mentally ill

others. >>

Nor did I invent or try to convey this "perception." First, I was struck by

how similar his crack-up was to a bad acid trip. That was where I began. I

mentioned Big Sur being a textbook for certain psych courses. I mentioned

that I'd also heard he was suffering from the DTs.

 

My personal opinion was that he was descending into madness and had a nervous

collapse at the cabin. I don't think he was in charge of his mental faculties

during that crack-up, and never said he was.

 

I think what might have confused you on this point was the fact that I was

amazed he could write about it accurately (indicating some sort of lucidity

on his part, perhaps) and the fact that he was being exposed to some aberrant

behaviour he found very offensive and frightening from the people he was

socializing with.

 

I still trust his accounting. I think the combination of ugly, intrusive

fame, his "brother" Tyke dying, his strained relationship with Neal and how

he was foisted off onto Billie, and his revulsion at the lifestyle of the San

Francisco beatnik, along with a good, long bender that included alcohol and

marijuana, pushed him over the edge. But somehow he was able to remember it

or allow some part of himself (through dissociation, perhaps) to witness it,

and write about it.

 

I sure as hell don't think it's fiction. If I found out it was, my esteem for

jack as a writer would be even higher than it already is, because Big Sur is

an amazing book.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:06:24 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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diane, i find your arguement a compelling addition to leon's post. i

mc

 

Diane Carter wrote:

 

> I have read Big Sur. Twice.  But given your interpretation, it does make

> me wonder if we're reading the same book.  I do believe that Jack's

> writing is true to what he saw happening in his own mind. The middle to

> end of the book is probably one of the best written records ever of

> delirium tremens.  But with all your knowledge about alcoholism you fail

> to see how someone writing in this state is suffering from acute delirium

> and paranoia.  He writes (on page 191) "...I feel a great ghastly hatred

> of myself and everything, the empty feeling far from being the usual

> relief is now as tho I've been robbed of my spinal power right down the

> middle on purpose by a great witching force--I feel evil forces gathering

> down all around me, from her, the kid, the very walls of the cabin, the

> trees, even the sudden thought of Dave Wain and Romana is evil..." Given

> your literal interpretation, then not only is Billie and the kid and Dave

> and Romana out to get him, but so are the trees and the walls of the

> cabin.  You have to see, as Leon accurately has been pointed out as well,

> that anyone in this condition is not exactly in a sound state of mind.

> My assessment of Billie also is much more sympathetic than yours.  I

> think (and this is only from what Jack wrote in Big Sur) that she truly

> understood him and wanted to pull him from the brink of self-destruction,

> but even she eventually realizes that he cannot accept her love because

> he cannot love himself.  I also do not agree with your assessment of

> alcoholism, "if they could choose to be another way they would," because

> it borders on fringe of saying "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic,"

> and on an even greater scale, that people are powerless to change their

> own lives no matter what kind of emotional trauma they have experienced

> or path they are on.  The choice to be otherwise is always there.

> DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:12:27 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

not all of the information to assess alcoholism is true for all alcoholics. the

DTs are what i read when the paranoia and the the visions kick in. Big Sur is an

autobiographical novel, meant to be so by it's author. NOT meant or written or

read as  a clinical case study. if you believe that jack is writing the literal

truth, then why are you having such a difficult time recognizing the DTs? much

of what he goes through happens to many in the thros of DTs, this coming from

many years of working psych units, caring for end-stage alcoholic people.

mc

 

You_Be Fine wrote:

 

> Let's see if I can clarify what I believe:

> 

> I believe jack kerouac was an alcoholic, and that it's the nature of an

> alcoholic not to be able to make the healthy choices required for changes.

> This belief of mine is highly personal, but I didn't get words to understand

> or describe it until I entered the world of 12-Step programs 12 years ago.

> 

> I believe that jack was highly gifted, and furthermore, that he existed on a

> higher plane of consciousness than most people ever do.

> 

> I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that

> jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was cracking

> up.

> 

> I believe Big Sur is autobiographical. I've never heard any information to

> the contrary, although I have heard jack quoted as saying it was

> autobiographical.

> 

> I follow the book quite literally, and with every paragraph, every page I

> turn, what he says makes more sense and rings more true.

> 

> Like everyone, my affinity for a certain book is founded on my own

> experience, my own frame of reference. Because I've lived enough of the

> events in Big Sur, I find them all very believable, and jack's telling of

> them reasoned and illuminating.

> 

> To me, this book is a masterpiece. I just re-read it on Saturday before

> posting my first comment to the list. I think I'll read it again, and of

> course, I'll be thinking of all your comments while I do.

> 

> But I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that Big Sur should be seen as

> literature, as opposed to a case study in a nervous breakdown, lived and

> recounted by the one who experienced it.

> 

> Recently I read Sombrero Fallout by Richard Brautigan, and in the main

> subplot (since there are about five plots, I think of them all as subplots,

> but then, I'm no scholar, and proud of that fact; just a reader) what I saw

> was the beginning of the end of Brautigan's life, or as Judith said about Big

> Sur in the first place, "It was like reading a suicide note." I believed

> Brautigan was foreshadowing his own suicide, and the fact that he did

> ultimately die violently at his own hand supports my belief, at least to me.

> What he went through was very familiar to me on a personal level (as a member

> in good standing of the Crack-up Club, along with David Rhaesa and some

> others too shy to talk about it).

> 

> Same thing with jack and reading Big Sur. I don't see any reason why I should

> look for metaphor and all those painfully intellectual literary analyses (ew,

> I'm so smart) when the words he wrote are all right there in front of me, in

> perfect order, exactly as he meant for them to be read.

> 

> I really believe (and I'm not suggesting anyone who's participated in this

> discussion so far falls into this description) that people are often so

> uncomfortable with "the lunatic ravings" of a holy man, because there is so

> much truth in them, that they need to retreat into rationalization, seeking

> explanations rather than taking what's there on face value.

> 

> That's where I'm coming from. I don't try to figure jack out. I just let his

> words transport me there.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:27:38 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      levi's burroughs web site

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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to levi and all beats

it's beautifully written, laid out, and comprehensive. so good to see

patricia's gentle and loving accounts and descriptions.

levi where did you get that color that absolutely radiant color photo

that is on the page?

in trying to save the image before making a bookmark, i lost the

address. and your post as well, levi,

could you kindly repost the address of the page?

many thanks

marie c

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:31:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19971125003813.08af0b8e@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I have a pair of Wide Leg Khaki's from the GAP but then again, Ive always

shopped at the GAP and would still shop there even if Kerouac didnt wear

Khakis....

 

 

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

 

> At 10:40 PM 11/23/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >>Why am I prolonging this?

> >>I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes

> >>with the

> >>audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"

> >>I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.

> >

> >     you mean the one with Edie in the background?  that's what i

> >thought when i saw the ad too.

> >

> >

> 

> Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis.  It would be

> interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did

> any good.  After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,

> so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?

> WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.

> 

> Mike Rice

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:31:08 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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> Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis.  It would be

> interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did

> any good.  After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,

> so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?

> WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.

> 

> Mike Rice

 

  not me

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:42:37 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: levi's burroughs web site

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> could you kindly repost the address of the page?

> many thanks

> 

 

thank you for your kind words on my contribution to Levi page, which is

at

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/SlicedBardo/

 

I too was taken by Levi's work, It was a great compilation in an wow

setting.  I was very pleased to the inclusion of the carolyn cassady

note,  it seemed fitting.  It wouldn't really seem to reflect william if

someone hadn't added "I just don't like the guy".

The interview about tangiers struck me as absolutely right, as did the

orgone box in williams back yard.   Of all the places william lived

tangiers (in my conversations with william) made some of the strongest

impressions on william.  He would talk of the colors, the People (the

bowles were the most striking).  One of williams great cats was named

Jane after jane bowles.  she was a (the cat)a delicately built calico,

very curous, very sensitive, very clever.  I had to learn not to walk

around the house so solidly, she liked nice even entrances. I normally

bound.  Oh i digress.  The Levi site in total is a work of art and i

have found his explanation of what beat literature is to be excellant.

His use of links are a delight.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:48:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19971125003813.08af0b8e@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis.  It would be

> interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did

> any good.  After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,

> so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?

 

Actually, if we really wanted to follow the ad and wear khakis because

Jack and Allen did we'd go to the Goodwill and buy them just as they did.

Biggest reason they were worn was they were dirt cheap and pletiful.  Also

those were the days when jeans were dungarees and work clothes, not casual

wear.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:19:13 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Big Sur: paranoia

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Here is one passage where my interpretation is that Jack recognizes that

most of what is going on in his head is in fact paranoia and fantasy (and

it occurs early on before the big buildup that takes place in the cabin

where his mental state worsens further).

 

pg. 116-117

"...But my childhood revery also included the fact that everybody in the

world was making fun of me because they were all members of an eternal

secret society or Heaven society that knew the secret of the world and

were seriously fooling me so I'd wake up and see the light (i.e. become

enlightened, in fact)--So that I, 'Ti Jean,' was the LAST Ti Jean left in

the world, the last poor holy fool, those people at my neck were the

devils of the earth among whom God had cast me, an angel baby, as tho I

was the last Jesus in fact! and all these people were waiting for me to

realize it and wake up and catch them peeking and we'd all laugh in

Heaven suddenly--But animals werent doing that behind my back, my cats

were always adornments licking their paws sadly, and Jesus, he was a sad

witness to this, somewhat like the animals--He wasn't peeking down my

neck--There lies the root of my belief in Jesus--So actually the only

reality in the world was Jesus and the lambs (the animals) and my brother

Gerard who had instructed me--Meanwhile some of the peekers were kindly

and sad, like my father, but had to go along with everybody else in the

same boat--But my waking up would take place and then everything would

vanish except Heaven, which is God--And that was why later in life after

these rather strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that

fainting vision of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it

including Samadhis during Buddhist meditations in the woods, I conceived

of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messanger from

Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking

society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong

track.

  With all this in my background, now at the point of adulthood disaster

of the soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted

into a fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:

and I must have believed it subconsciously because as I say as soon as

Ron Blake left I was well again and in fact content."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 06:01:13 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: BigSur misconceptions/miscommunications

MIME-Version: 1.0

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-----Original Message-----

From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 10:47 PM

Subject: BigSur misconceptions/miscommunications

 

>In a message dated 97-11-24 22:16:44 EST, Leon responded:

I SAID:

><<  If you see my questions as trivial, that is your evaluation. >>

 

YOU SAID:

>Leon, I don't think your questions, or your responses, are trivial, and I

>hope you don't have the impression that I do. I don't know how you came up

>with this impression, since I didn't say it, nor did I think it.

 

I SAY:

The impression that you felt my "theory" is trivial xame from this passage:

 

>Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feels

>like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to

>believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's books?

 

Is there another way to interpret it?

 

If I felt this was some kind of a personal clash, I would have responded by

backchannell. I believe that we are dealing here with sincerely held views

about the book that we are all interested in.

 

I was questioning the notion that Jack was horrified into madness by the

behavior of his friends, that there was no reason at all to suspect that his

state of mind might have distorted motives and actions of his friends. I was

not questioning Jack's genius. I also have no question that he was writing

about his experience of life, not inventing fiction. He was writing about

how things seemed to him at the time and how he felt about himself.

 

YOU SAID:

>I think what might have confused you on this point was the fact that I was

>amazed he could write about it accurately (indicating some sort of lucidity

>on his part, perhaps) and the fact that he was being exposed to some

aberrant

>behaviour he found very offensive and frightening from the people he was

>socializing with.

 

I SAY:

 

Enough maybe? good enough for me.

 

Have a happy thanksgiving everyone

 

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:38:14 +0000

Reply-To:     "Nancy J. Peters" <nancyp@wenet.net>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Nancy J. Peters" <nancyp@WENET.NET>

Organization: CITY LIGHTS BOOKS

Subject:      unsubscibe

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

"unsubcribe" nancyp@wenet.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:39:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      Unsubscribe

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

"unsubscribe" sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:20:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur: paranoia

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit

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In a message dated 97-11-25 11:00:16 EST, DC wrote

 

<<=20

 Here is one passage where my interpretation is that Jack recognizes that

 most of what is going on in his head is in fact paranoia and fantasy (an=

d

 it occurs early on before the big buildup that takes place in the cabin

 where his mental state worsens further).

=20

  >>

This is an excellent example of why I don't post more often to Beat-L. I

already cited from this long passage in one of my very first posts, but

obviously, Diane Carter didn't read it.

 

Here are snips from my earliest posts:

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

I'm happy to stipulate that jack's collapse didn't have anything to do wi=

th

LSD, but was some kind of inner look in midlife where he couldn't deal wi=

th

what he saw.

 

I sure don't want to overthink this. There are some absolutely tactile im=

ages

in Big Sur, and sometimes I think we overlook the quality of his prose in=

 a

book that has so much autobiographical information. We get hung up on "th=

e

story behind the story," and fail to see the beauty.

 

I was thinking how incredible it was that he had the presence of mind to =

be

aware of what was happening to him, and to write it down so faithfully wh=

en

he was finished cracking up. To me, that is a measure of his inspired sou=

l as

a chosen one, a vessel through which such beauty flows as most ignorant f=

olks

can't really understand. He certainly believed he was inspired:

BUT MY WAKING UP would take place and then everything would vanish except

Heaven, which is God=97And that was why later in life after these rather

strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that fainting visi=

on

of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it=85 in the woods, I

conceived of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messenger =

from

Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking

society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong

track.

 

But he saw his weaknesses:

WITH ALL THIS IN MY BACKGROUND, now at the point of adulthood disaster of=

 the

soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted into a

fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:

 

And maybe drugs were getting to him:

BUT THAT'S NOT the point, about pot paranoia, yet maybe it is at that=97I=

=92ve

long given it up because it bugs me anyway=97

 

Who knows? He was certainly disillusioned:

=85I USED TO STAND by the windows like this in my childhood and look out =

on

dusky...=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

I'm not saying it was drugs, the DTs or some 24-hour virus that got to ja=

ck.

I don't need to reach a conclusion about it. And I don't need to be right=

,

either. jack was about conflict, and he struggled all his life to keep tw=

o

conflicting thoughts in his head simultaneously (see Dharma Bums, Scriptu=

re

of the Golden Eternity, Selected Letters).

 

As I said, Who knows? I'm not going to put jack in a box and limit the

meaning of his stories with my small imagination. He's the one I'm trying=

 to

learn from; I'm not trying to reinvent or teach him.

 

I was hoping for some good old anti-intellectual, heartfelt sharing from =

list

members who've "been to Big Sur" in their own experiences, not in an

antiseptic dissection of jack kerouac (safe in heaven dead and laughing h=

is

ass off at all of us here) by people who need to reach conclusions.

 

Hey, has anyone seen that picture of jack in the GAP ads? What do you thi=

nk?

Did someone sell him out? Was that right or wrong? What would jack think?

 

(hoping you all have a sense of humour.....)

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:26:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis.  It would be

>interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did

>any good.  After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,

>so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?

>WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.

 

       well the ad has a weakness, jack didn't wear GAP khakis, so if

anyone wanted to imitate kerouac they could just go out and buy a pair

of dockers, or whatever.. or, more appropriately, head down to the

nearest salv. army or thrift shop and get whatever you happen to find

there.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:11:09 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      New Yorker Question

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Remember on the 40th anniversary of On the Road the New York Times web site

did a forum on Jack kerouac: Typist or Writer?

 

There was a post there from September that said:

 

__________

 

ermoore <erm@mail.utexas.edu> - 12:19pm Sep 16, 1997 EST (#31 of 58)

 

For anyone interested in a glimpse of Kerouac's never-before-available road

diaries, check out The

New Yorker in the coming weeks. Kerouac's literary executor, Douglas

Brinkley (author of The

Majic Bus and editor of Hunter S. Thompson's recently published early

correspondence The Proud

Highway, among other things), is going to edit and publish this epic journal

and will be offering a few

excerpts from the diaries in an upcoming issue of The New Yorker.

 

___________________

 

It's been more than two months this this post and I sure haven't seen

anything like this in the New Yorker.  Did I miss it or is it still to come

or is this the publishing equivalent of vaporware.

 

I'd like to see this.  Does anyone know anything about it?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:38:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: New Yorker Question

 

In a message dated 97-11-25 15:16:17 EST, Tim wrote:

 

<<  It's been more than two months this this post and I sure haven't seen

 anything like this in the New Yorker.  Did I miss it or is it still to come

 or is this the publishing equivalent of vaporware.

 

 I'd like to see this.  Does anyone know anything about it?  >>

 

Paul Maher stays up-to-date on Estate-related things and posts them to his

website: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html,

although I don't know if there's anything specific there about this project.

 

I believe the excerpts are scheduled to appear in December. You might email

Paul and see if he has an update, or contact the New Yorker.

 

And let us know. I'm interested in this, too.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:43:54 -0500

Reply-To:     blackj@bigmagic.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>

Subject:      NICOSIA'S ARCHIVES

Comments: cc: GNicosia@earthlink.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I've just today received this letter from Gerald Nicosia and believe

that anyone interested in the Beat Generation archives or the Jack

Kerouac archives will be riveted by what this letter has to say.  I

think it a shame that one great Kerouac scholar should have to be

persecuted like this (at the expense of ALL Kerouac scholras) for having

stood up for Jan Kerouac and for still standing up for her.  Greed is

not the sole quality which should guide whoever it is in the control of

the Kerouac estate.

I am writing to everyone who has supported or shown interest in my work

on Jack Kerouac and my critical biography of Kerouac, "Memory Babe".

The huge amount of research I did on Kerouac's life during the years

1977-1981, including 300 hundred taped interviews and many thousands of

pages of letters and other documents, is in grave danger of being lost

forever.  Let me explain.

In 1987, for the very modest fee of $7,500, 1 placed the entire "Memory

Babe" Archive on deposit at the University of Lowell (now called the

University of Massachusetts, Lowell).  Since Lowell is Jack Kerouac's

hometown, I assumed the archive would receive maximum exposure there to

scholars, writers, and others interested in studying Kerouac's life and

writings.  In fact, when I placed the Memorv Babe archive at the

university, it was done with the stipulation that it be made available

to the public for scholarly study.  I also stipulated that the

materials, especially the tapes, be properly cared for.

The unique and precious quality of this material cannot be

overemphasized.  Of the 300 people I taped who knew Kerouac, over 100

are now dead.  Many of the dead interviewees are major American writers,

such as Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs, Kenneth Rexroth, Robert

Duncan, Bob Kaufman, Ted Berrigan, John Clellon Holmes, Paul Carroll,

Malcolm Cowley, Seymour Krim, Herbert Huncke, and Jan Kerouac.  Other

dead interviewees include Kerouac's first two wives, Edie Parker and

Joan Haverty, and close boyhood friends.  These interviews can never be

replaced.

The University of Lowell has never copied these tapes on to fresh

cassettes or made any other effort to preserve them, such as

digitalization, despite my complaints about their obvious deterioration

over time.  Then, in June, 1995, 1 received a post card from

scholar/professor James Jones that the entire archive was closed to the

public.  Mr. Jones wrote: "I just tried to look at the papers you

donated to the University of Lowell, and the librarian in the Mogan

Center told me your collection is closed to the public until the lawsuit

is resolved."

 

I called Martha Mayo, the librarian, to ask what was going on, and why

Jan Kerouac's lawsuit against the Sampas family, to recover her fathers

papers, should have anything to do with my archives.  Ms. Mayo informed

me that John Sampas, the literary executor for Stella Sampas Kerouac's

estate, had complained about people having access to mv collection

without his permission.  Mr. Sampas lives in Lowell and has a great deal

of influence there.  The library agreed to shut my collection, even

though Mr. Sampas has never demonstrated that he has the legal authority

to keep people from using any of the "Memory Babe" materials for study.

(Legally, he has the right only to keep people from publishing or

broadcasting some of Jack Kerouac's writings without his permission.)

I threatened to make a public issue of the illegal closing of my

archives and was then told--deceptively--by the librarian that the

collection was still open, that she had only restricted the xeroxing of

Jack Kerouac letters. (There are also 2,000 Jack Kerouac letters in

xerox in my collection, more Jack Kerouac letters than in any other spot

on earth.) Several months later, however, I began getting more letters

and calls from scholars who had been turned away from the entire

collection.  The university then admitted the collection was indeed

closed.

In effect, this enormous archive of study material on the life of Jack

Kerouac has been permanently buried--and consigned to imminent

destruction, since the life of many of the tapes is at most only a few

more years.

Other libraries, such as the Bancroft in Berkeley and the University of

Texas at Austin, have already expressed their interest in acquiring the

"Memory Babe" archives for the purpose of making it available for

study.  But the University of Massachusetts at Lowell will not divest

itself of the archives even if paid back in full the purchasing price.

The University of Massachusetts, Lowell, will not sell the "Memory Babe"

archives, will not properly care for it, and will not show it to

anyone.  This is a situation in which everyone is the loser, and most

especially the future generations of scholars and writers who seek

access to a wealth of primary source material on Jack Kerouac.

The University of Massachusefts, Lowell, has left me no choice but to

file a breach of contract suit against them, to recover the "Memory

Babe" archive so that it can be placed in another institution, where it

can be made freely available to the public.  An institution not under

the direct influence of Mr. John Sampas.  For two years I tried and

failed to put together a pro bono legal team to carry out this suit, but

was unable to do so.  I have, however, found a Boston attorney who will

take the case at a considerably reduced rate.  But I still need to come

up with a $20,000 retainer, which will also cover filing fees,

depositions, and so forth.

Action must be taken now, or the chance to act will be lost forever.  A

statute of limitation is running on fraud and breach of contract--three

years in Massachusetts.  That statute will be up in June of 1998.  If I

do not take action before then, I will lose forever the legal right to

recover the "Memory Babe" archives

I am asking people to donate as much as they possibly can.  I do not

intend to make any money from this legal action whatsoever.  My only

goal is to save this huge archive of study materials for posterity.

Every person who donates will receive a receipt for their donation and

an accounting every 6 months of how the money is being spent.

We hope that negative publicity will cause the University of

Massachusetts to settle quickly, to accept payment for the archive and

transfer it directly to me or to another university that offers to

purchase it.  If indeed we have to go the distance in trial court and

appellate court, there is still a good chance, if we win, of recouping

legal expenses from the university and/or from the resale of the archive

to another university.

Once this happens, once we win and resell the archive to another

university, all remaining funds, plus any earned, will be returned to

the donors with the aim of fullest possible reimbursement.  For example,

if a total of $20,000 was donated, and $20,000 is recovered, everyone

will get 1 00% of their donation back.  If only $1 0,000 is recovered

(if, for example, legal fees are not repaid, but we earn $1 0,000

reselling the archive), then every donor will receive back 50% of his

donation.

The "Memory Babe" archive is the largest archive of study materials

concerning Jack Kerouac's life and work anywhere in the world.  It can

be saved only with your help.  I appeal to you now, with the coming

generations of scholars and writers in mind.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart, for listening and for helping.

Gerald Nicosia

--

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:56:43 +0900

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: New Yorker Question

In-Reply-To:  <199711252011.MAA11998@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>For anyone interested in a glimpse of Kerouac's never-before-available road

>diaries, check out The

>New Yorker in the coming weeks. Kerouac's literary executor, Douglas

>Brinkley (author of The

>Majic Bus and editor of Hunter S. Thompson's recently published early

>correspondence The Proud

>Highway, among other things), is going to edit and publish this epic journal

>and will be offering a few

>excerpts from the diaries in an upcoming issue of The New Yorker.

> 

>___________________

> 

>It's been more than two months this this post and I sure haven't seen

>anything like this in the New Yorker.  Did I miss it or is it still to come

>or is this the publishing equivalent of vaporware.

 

 

        I'm also wondering about the publication of these excerpts. I live

outside of Nagoya a couple of hours, and have been sneaking away on Sunday

mornings on the train to the city where the English language

books/magazines are sold to see if it's come out yet. I feared I had missed

it. Can anyone provide the issue date of the magazine? Or has its

publication been postponed?

 

:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::

Timothy Hoffman

Komaki English Teaching Center (KETC)

Komaki Shiminkaikan, KETC

2-107 Komaki

Komaki, Aichi 485

work (0568) 76-0905

fax (0568) 77-8207

home (0568)72-3549

timothy@gol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:04:39 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>

Subject:      Re: allow me to...

In-Reply-To:  <347A5130.177B@sunflower.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain

 

g'day all,

 

as i've just joined, i thought i'd just briefly introduce myself.

i've been an avid reader of kerouac and other beat writers since 1965 when

as a schoolboy i came across a hardback edition of 'on the road' in one of

the secondhand bookstores i used to haunt - i think it was the 'girls!

jazz! booze!' on the cover (predating 'sex'n'drugs'nrock'nroll?) that got

my attention. later as a lawstudent at university, i was blessed to find

one wintry morning a whole assortment of city lights publications out on

sale at a ridiculously reduced rate- i picked up as many as i could afford,

including some now hard to find here like Scripture of the Golden Eternity

by K, and The First Third by Neal Cassady. ( I got Mexico City Blues too,

but that vanished long a go at one of /those/ parties)

 

in the last 30 years i have also amassed a lot of cuttings and articles - i

hope to start learning more here of course.............

--

bye for now,

#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#

(|||||||||||||||||||)  #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)

#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:13:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Aronowitz/Nicosia

 

Waiting for the other shoe to drop...

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:19:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Memory babe Archive - Al Aronowitz post correction

In-Reply-To:  <347B388A.1A5F@bigmagic.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Friends:

 

Please make the following correction before you pass Al's post on to friends.

 

In the third from the last paragragraph:

 

***

Instead of contributors receiving an accounting EVERY SIX MONTHS they will

be informed of EXACTLY how the money is used.They will NOT receive an

accounting every six months simply becauase that could become expensive and

time consuming. There is an incredible amount of work to do and not much

time to do it in.

***

 

By Thanksgiving Day (maybe I'll have it up by 11-26-97) there will be a

notice at http://www.bookzen.com detailing the following fundraiser to help

Gerry Nicosia recover the Memory babe Archive from the University of

Massachusetts.

 

A broadside (picture of Jan Kerouac at her father's grave and a poem by Jan

titled "Natasha") along with an Incredible Librarian T-Shirt will be given

to anyone who makes a contribution. For the T-Shirt alone $25. For the

boardside alone $25.  For both $45. For any of the three please add $5 for

the cost of shipping the poster and t -shirt in a substantial tube.

 

As many Beats and friends of Jan know, Natasha was the stillborn daughter

Jan lost in Mexico when she was 16. On her way to Mexico Jan had stopped

and visited with her dad. He instructed her to use the name Kerouac and to

write. The photograph of Jan was taken by Chris Felver and printed by White

Fields Press. The photographer has signed the broadside. As Jan's literary

executor Gerry Nicosia has given permission to use Jan's picture and the

poem Jan wrote to the still-born child that would have been Jack's

granddaughter. I have asked Gerry if he would also sign the broadside if

anyone wanted him to do so. He said he would.

 

Contributions can be sent to:

Gerry Nicosia

SAVE THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE

PO Box 130

Corte Madera CA 94976-0130

(415) 924-2270 (phone/fax)

 

The t-shirts are cotton, sizes Medium, Large and X-Large. The art is four

color on the front and shows the Incredible Librarian flying.

 

Below her image is "Guardian de la Sabidoria  -  Keeper of Knowledge.

 

On the back is:

"In the defense of freedom and literacy libraries are the most powerful

weapon we have. Use them!"

 

These t-shirts were originally created, as was the character The Incredible

Librarian, because of the desperate need for more preservation labs and for

more trained preservation librarians.

 

These are very high quality t-shirts. I have one test shirt that I have

machine washed in hot water over 300 times. The art is clear,the shirt

strong. No tears, no threads arond the edges.

 

$2000.00 worth of these t-shirts are being donated by BookZen and Mica

Press to help recover the Memory Babe Archives from the University of

Massachusetts.

 

I will provide an address for the web site, with all of the art and

information, by tomorrow.

 

I would appeciate it if contributors allow me to post their names on the

web site that will track tis effort to recover and preseve the Memory Babe

Archive.

 

Thanks.

 j grant

 

 

 

                Small Press Publishers and Authors

                  Display Books Free At BookZen

                                592,901 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-01-97

                         http://www.bookzen.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Before you reach into your pocket...

 

Regarding the fundraising campaign launched by Gerry Nicosia, et. al., before

you make a donation, don't you think it would be a good idea to ask the UMass

Lowell Library for a comment, as well as what their position would be toward

relinquishing these papers?

 

Another good question would be to ask them why they are reluctant, if in

fact, they are.

 

They are not required to sell it, by law or for any other reason. They bought

it, fair and square.

 

With all due respect toward Gerald Nicosia, I want to hear the other side of

the story.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

In-Reply-To:  <971125215441_-388719893@mrin51.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

 Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:42  You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM> wrote:

 

>Regarding the fundraising campaign launched by Gerry Nicosia, et. al., before

>you make a donation, don't you think it would be a good idea to ask the UMass

>Lowell Library for a comment, as well as what their position would be toward

>relinquishing these papers?

> 

>Another good question would be to ask them why they are reluctant, if in

>fact, they are.

> 

>They are not required to sell it, by law or for any other reason. They bought

>it, fair and square.

> 

>With all due respect toward Gerald Nicosia, I want to hear the other side of

>the story.

 

Interesting post You_Be Fine,

 

Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit

against a major university  to rip people off for some donations? Do you

think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand

dollars? Do you think anyone would donate $2000.00 worth of T-Shirts to

assist in such a thing?

 

Were I a cautious person like yourself You-Be-Fine-AngelMindz, I would be

on the phone to the American Library Association asking them to

investigate.  The following will save you time:

 

American Library Association

50 E Huron St.

Chicago, IL

1-800-545-2433

1-312-944-6780

 

Do the same with the Massachusetts Library Association and the Library

Association in your state Contact the organizations made up of Preservation

Librarians within the ALA. Do a blanket canvas of the Preservation

Librarian groups in all the states. Before this is over every librarian in

North America is going to have insights into how the U MASS cares for

valuable collections. As will academics, writers, poets and others who have

archives that might, under ordinary circumstances, be given or sold to the

U MASS.

 

The Special Collections librarian at U MASS Lowell is going to find out

that the position of Special Collections librarian comes with the

obligation to care for the collections. Nothing is more important than

PRESERVATION. To not PRESERVE is a betrayal of the most serious kine.

Materials that have been entrusted to a university are deteriorating and

incredibly valuable information is being lost--NEVER TO BE RECOVERED.

 

As for asking them what their position is on reliquishing the Memory Babe

Archive, read the post. They refuse to do so. They refuse to accept what

they paid for it so the collection can be placed in a library that cares

for archived materials.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                     Details  on-line by 11-27-97

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      592,901 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-01-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 03:56:41 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: allow me to...

 

welcome John.  how bout telling us about thos articles you have?   ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of John Pullicino

Sent:   Tuesday, November 25, 1997 5:04 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: allow me to...

 

g'day all,

 

as i've just joined, i thought i'd just briefly introduce myself.

i've been an avid reader of kerouac and other beat writers since 1965 when

as a schoolboy i came across a hardback edition of 'on the road' in one of

the secondhand bookstores i used to haunt - i think it was the 'girls!

jazz! booze!' on the cover (predating 'sex'n'drugs'nrock'nroll?) that got

my attention. later as a lawstudent at university, i was blessed to find

one wintry morning a whole assortment of city lights publications out on

sale at a ridiculously reduced rate- i picked up as many as i could afford,

including some now hard to find here like Scripture of the Golden Eternity

by K, and The First Third by Neal Cassady. ( I got Mexico City Blues too,

but that vanished long a go at one of /those/ parties)

 

in the last 30 years i have also amassed a lot of cuttings and articles - i

hope to start learning more here of course.............

--

bye for now,

#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#

(|||||||||||||||||||)  #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)

#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:25:50 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

You_Be Fine wrote:

> 

> Regarding the fundraising campaign launched by Gerry Nicosia, et. al., before

> you make a donation, don't you think it would be a good idea to ask the UMass

> Lowell Library for a comment, as well as what their position would be toward

> relinquishing these papers?

> 

> Another good question would be to ask them why they are reluctant, if in

> fact, they are.

> 

> They are not required to sell it, by law or for any other reason. They bought

> it, fair and square.

> 

> With all due respect toward Gerald Nicosia, I want to hear the other side of

> the story.

 

with all due respect,  why don't you do this.  and lets us all tred very

carefully. as i don't want to hear the other shoe drop until after the

dreaded holidays are over. i need my beat-l  hey did you guys look at

what levi has done as a memorial to william.. he used my bardo peice

and  never did it work as well.  great exciting people we have on beat-l

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/SlicedBardo/

 

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:27:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      On The Road to Big Sur

 

Seems like all of jack's books connect to his other books... so I picked up

my copy of "Trip Trap" (Grey Fox Press 1973), which isn't strictly a kerouac

book, since it's coauthored by Lew Welch (Dave Wain in Big Sur) and Albert

Saijo (George Baso 'the little Japanese Zen master hepcat'), and was

published after jack had died and Lew had disappeared, assumed dead...

 

Albert wrote the first piece, "A Recollection," about the road trip he, Lew

and Jack took from San Francisco to New York the Thanksgiving before Big Sur,

and his return with Lew to Hyphen-House, their collective house "on the

northwest corner of Post and Buchanan in San Francisco." He tells about the

kitchen table where he gathered with housemates Les Thompson, Tom Fields,

Philip Whalen, John Blaise, and Lew, and how jack arrived there in November

of 1959, "at the height of his fame... drinking heavy, but he appeared to be

on a binge and determined to party on. He never lacked company. His celebrity

drew company."

 

Housemates and company gathered around the kitchen table for "plain quiet

talk or boozing and howling," and Albert adds, "It was as Jack described it

in the beautifully sustained prose of his book of suffering, Big Sur." jack

said: "It's an old roominghouse of four stories on the edge of the Negro

district of San Francisco where... [they] all live in different rooms with

their clutter of rucksacks and floor mattresses and books and gear, each one

taking turns one day a week to go out and do all the shopping and come back

and cook up a big communal dinner in the kitchen."

 

Albert was very aware of jack's declining mental state that November,

foreshadowing the August crackup at Big Sur, observing how "The mornings

after were deathly quiet. Jack would get up with a look in his eyes verging

on the dead eye look of metabolic extremity and smile a ruined hungover

smile. You understood then that his drinking was some kind of penance he had

put on himself to do in a Mexican Indian Catholic way, and it brought to mind

the 51st Psalm that begins, 'Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy

lovingkindness...' Penance for what? God only knows, but why else did he do

it? Sacrifice himself to juice. When he drank it was like he tore open his

breast with his bare hands to show God his pure beating heart."

 

So I went back to Big Sur (the book, not the location) with the addition of

Albert's information, and read some passages over again, and saw the whole

crack-up a little more deeply, and certainly, more spiritually. "So easy in

the woods to daydream and pray to the local spirits and say, 'Allow me to

stay here, I only want peace' and those foggy peaks answer back mutely

Yes--And to say to yourself (if you're like me with theological

preoccupations) (at least at that time, before I went mad and still had such

preoccupations) 'God who is everything possesses the eye of the awakening,

like dreaming a long dream of an impossible task and you wake up in in a

flash, oops, No Task, it's done and gone'--"

 

Seemed like part of the tapestry of madness jack was being woven into

involved a serious questioning of his faith in a God of some sort. He

isolates this ambivalence as the beginning of his crack-up: "The sea seems to

yell to me GO TO YOUR DESIRE DONT HAND AROUND HERE-- For after all the sea

must be like God, God isnt asking us to mope and suffer and sit by the sea in

the cold at midnight for the sake of writing down useless sounds, he gave us

the tools of self reliance after all to make it straight thru bad life

mortality towards Paradise maybe I hope--But some miserables like me dont

even know it, when it comes to us we're amazed--Ah, life is a gate, a way, a

path to Paradise anyway, why not live for fun and joy and love or some sort

of girl by a fireside, why not go to your desire and LAUGH...but I ran away

from that seashore and never came back again without that secret knowledge:

that it didnt want me there, that I was a fool to sit there in the first

place, the sea has its waves, the man has his fireside, period.

    That being the first indication of my later flip--"

 

Backing up, being aware of list-members' comments about the DTs and what jack

experienced at Big Sur, I was also newly aware of this passage he wrote

describing the skid road hotel room he checked into when he first arrived,

before he hooked up with Monsanto (Ferlinghetti): "But the rucksack sits

hopefully in a strewn mess of bottles all empty, empty poorboys of white

port, butts, junk, horror... 'One fast move or I'm gone,' I realize, gone the

way of the last three years of drunken hopelessness which is a physical and

metaphysical hopelessness you cant learn in school no matter how many books

on existentialism or pessimism you read, or how many jugs of vision-producing

Ayahuasca you drink, or Mescaline take, or Peyote goop up with--That feeling

when you wake up with the delirium tremens with the _fear_ of eerie death

dripping from your ears like those special heavy cobwebs spiders weave in the

hot countries..." I found myself wondering what kind of "junk" he was

referring to here, and certainly interested in all his references to

psychedelics.

 

Back in Trip Trap, Albert had mentioned, as part of his description of

goings-on at the kitchen table, "It was before acid, there was occasionally

peyote and some grass." That really caused me to wonder once again about the

nature of jack's very psychedelic (to me) crack-up.

 

Albert also observed, remembering the 1959 visit to jack's home in Northport,

that "When he was here at home, safe, relaxed, unharassed, the famous author

bullshit set aside, you could see the great beauty and sweetness of his

character." But away from the security of his home, it was entirely another

story.

 

Side note: In Northport, after the Thanksgiving 1959 road trip, jack showed

Lew and Albert something special: "He showed us a manuscript of his notes,

jottings, and text on Buddhism. The extent of his study was quite impressive.

I don't believe any part of this manuscript has ever been published."

 

That reminded me of his 'Tao on the Toilet,' which Adrien posted to the list

a few days ago with the subject line, "A little too much of the dharma..."

'A wellknown truth in every private heart

in this long night of life:

A big defecation leaves nothing to be wiped,

A small one, there's no wiping it.

 This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)

 

Hilariously enough, the origins of this anal thinking, as well as the

treatise on "dirty azzoles," are found in Trip Trap within the poem jack

wrote jointly with Lew Welch, titled "This Is What It's Called." And you may

learn a bit more than you want to know about Peter Orlovsky's bowel habits in

Albert's accounting, as well.

 

Trip Trap is a great book to read before or after or even DURING Big Sur. And

for all the discussion on the list about Big Sur in the last few days, I hope

those who haven't read it will now feel compelled to do so. It is an amazing

book.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:53:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

 

In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:

 

<< 

 Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit

 against a major university  to rip people off for some donations? Do you

 think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand

 dollars?  >>

 

Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that

was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has

a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds

frivolous to me.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:05:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

 

In a message dated 97-11-25 23:45:38 EST, you write:

 

<< 

 with all due respect,  why don't you do this.  and lets us all tred very

 carefully. as i don't want to hear the other shoe drop until after the

 dreaded holidays are over. i need my beat-l  >>

 

I'm not interested in the subject and don't want to spend the time. I want to

talk about jack. and yeah, I saw that site at Levi's and it's

GRRRRRRRRRR-EAT!

 

I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to

participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial

issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until

AFTER the holidays.

 

Are you with me? Ho-ho-ho!!!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:11:57 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

 

if the seller stipulated things, agreement upon which the sale was contingent,

and the purchaser defaults, then the purchaser is  in breach of contract.

 

aside from that, YBF, a library is a public place, funded publicly, for public

use.  it has a public responsibility to properly care for the items it has

procured with public funds.  it also cannot withhold any but extremely

valuable items from its users - and even those are made available to

professionals of good scholarly repute, for study.  if the library is not

doing the above, then it is failing in its public trust and should be divested

of anything which is being handled in a contrary manner.

 

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of You_Be Fine

Sent:   Tuesday, November 25, 1997 8:53 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

 

In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:

 

<< 

 Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit

 against a major university  to rip people off for some donations? Do you

 think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand

 dollars?  >>

 

Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that

was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has

a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds

frivolous to me.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:14:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      delete

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

delete

is it beat to delete

i can throw a book away if

it is missing a soul.

do books have souls. do they go to heavon.

 if i hit the numbers man

i would buy old tapes of william

crooning on to me of what it was to know

and kick around with jack and allen.

 how spare ass annie

leaning on a lampost

looked to allen.

on the corner of newyork.

the agony of watching

jack loose interest in talking,

over lunch, dead at 11:am

i would hike over brooklyn bridge

into a cool blue roofed room in tangiers.

If the number man would give me copies

of allen, squeezing his penis gently in

overflowing joy.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:45:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>

Subject:      Estate Debate

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Not since the OJ trial have I wished so much for a gag order.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:37:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: On The Road to Big Sur - Trip Trap

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

You do be fine "You-be-fine"...

 

        Thanks very much for the lengthy post about "Trip Trap". I've tended

almost uniformly to take a pass on the philosophical threads/posts that have

been going by. Something about yours grabbed me, perhaps because it was tied

to real people's reports of the events around their lives. I will look for

"Trip Trap."  Thanks again.

 

                Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:10:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

In-Reply-To:  <971125235315_1672083065@mrin41.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:

> 

><< 

> Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit

> against a major university  to rip people off for some donations? Do you

> think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand

> dollars?  >>

> 

>Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that

>was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has

>a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds

>frivolous to me.

 

There are hundreds of taped interviews that will be lost, forever, if

preservation measures are not taken to save the tapes. These are interviews

with people who knew Jack Keroauc intimately, Burroughs was interviewed,

many other writers, Kerouac's wives and lovers, very close women and men

friends. To many people this information is so important that considerable

time and money will be spent insuring that the collection is removed from U

Mass, Lowell to a library that has a presevation lab and preservation

librarians who work hard to preserve collections that have been placed in

their care--entrusted to them.

 

I don't want to get into a big thing over this, but I feel very strongly

about the conservation and preservation of historic documents--particularly

material that is stored in or on  unstable material. The life of magnetic

tape is short. Everyone knows this. We simply cannot allow the information

on those tapes to be lost.

 

Forget about the tapes in the Memory Babe Archive for a minute.and let me

mention another project so you don't think Memory Babe is the only

information I'm concerned about. Wisconsin has the second largest

population of Hmong in the U.S. These remarkable people arrived here

without any history other than their stories. Their history is passed down

generation to generation verbally--it is not written. Cultural shock is

taking a terrible toll of these people--particularly the seniors. The

seniors carry the history in their minds. Everytime one of them dies they

lose, WE LOSE, Hmong history. Can you imagine not having a history. Not

knowing the what, where, why, when and how of yourself, your parents, your

grandparents? No serious, concentrated effort is being made to record the

history of the Hmong. To most is seems unimportant. It demands an

expenditure of funds states do not feel they can spend. Taxpayers are

reluctant. Not a good situation. What should be done to preserve this

history?

 

Is it as important as the travels of Lewis and Clark? The Vietnam War. My

Lai. Two New Jersey teen agers commiting suicide to protest a war. Letters

your grandmother wrote. An old diary.

 

What should be done to preserve the scattered fragments of Bukowski,

Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac, and hundreds of others--some minor, some

major. Little things here and there. A note. A few words. What Ginsberg

said about Nicosia while we were talking one evening.  A few words while

autographing his high schol yearbook picture for me. Fragments. Safe.

Preserved.

 

The work to raise money to save this archive is simply that. To save

information that someone, someday, will use. A small bit of information

that helps form a link to another little piece of information and another

and another and another and we learn.

 

Just the tid-bits one picks up on this list are sometimes mind-blowing.

 

Example.

Today I added a picture of Meridel LeSueur to the page that has information

about the last book she wrote at age 93. The Dread Road. The picture was a

quick snapshop Charlie Plymell took of Meridel in an elevator at Westbeth,

an artist commune in NYC over ten years ago. Plymell learned of my interest

in Meridel on this list. Meridel was in NYC for the book publishing

gathering the Feminist Press was having for the anthology of Meridel's work

"RIPENING: The Writings of Meridel LeSueur.... "  She invited Plymell to

the gathering. An incredible book.. A picture from Plymell to BookZen to

the World Wide Web. From me to the Minnesota Historical Society, with a

copy going to Special Collection at the University if Iowa. Is this picture

important?  Are Plymell's notes on the meeting important? Is the

conversation he and Meridel had that day important? Are Meridel's notes

about the meeting with Plymell important. When compared fifty years from

now what will some researcher discover about these two remarkable

observers. Hundreds of her notebooks are slowly being transcribed.

Important? To some people yes. To students studying the Great Depression

Meridel's notes, fiction, poetry, recorded words are priceless. What did

Meridel pass on to one of her grandchildren who put together the first

Native American radio station on an Indian reservation?

 

Her notes will tell us...something. But they have to be preserved, cared

for, cherished.  Preservation Librarians and others, do that--preserve

information.

 

Please people, just let this thing happen. Please understand that what this

is about is saving information that, since you are into Beat History,

should be as important to you as it is to the person who gathered the

information, and the people who want to study the information.

 

Sorry for the length of this post. So scattered. Fragmented. Too tired to

dig in and edit. My much better half, a preservation librarian, would have

said it better while being appalled that it needed saying at all.

 

This is it. Nothing more from me.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                     Details  on-line by 11-27-97

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      592,901 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-01-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:00:58 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Lachlan Jobbins <hipster66@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Herbert Huncke

Content-Type: text/plain

 

    Has anyone picked up the new(ish) 'herbert huncke reader'?

    Having just received it from barnes and noble the other day I am

thoroughly enjoying what I have read so far. Huncke has several short

pieces in Charters' 'Portable Beat reader' but these I think fail to

represent the overall quality of his work. When I first tried to find

Huncke's Journal, The Evening Sun Turned Crimson and Guilty of

Everything I was disappointed to find them all out of print.

    This collection includes large sections from these books as well as

other uncollected material. Perhaps we could start a new

thread/discussion? Personally I'm very impressed with the combination of

existentialist thought and fiendish behaviour in what I've read so far.

     Huncke is easily as perceptive a reporter as John Clellon Holmes

(another whom I have a great respect for), and in many ways I think his

engagement with his subject equals that of Kerouac.

    Just a thought, 'cos I haven't seen him mentioned for a while.

    Love to hear your thoughts.

      Lachlan.

P.S.: Has anyone got a copy of Lawrence Lipton's 'The Holy Barbarians'

for sale? I read it last year in a library and would like to get my

hands on a copy for keeps. Thanks. L.

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:35:06 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: delete

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

beautiful and very pertinent for the time, patricia; i too don't want

the list to dive back into the debate. i think it is beat to delete, and

rather than stoke the fires, i will do so.

you shed light in the darkness and lay a balm on me(i would hope on all)

 

today as i write this i am listening to jack reciting, right now he is

asking buddhacharlieparker to 'lay a balm on us all.

have a good holiday,

patricia. the list needs your quiet soul and your tender love for

william, for all.

thankyou

mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> delete

> is it beat to delete

> i can throw a book away if

> it is missing a soul.

> do books have souls. do they go to heavon.

>  if i hit the numbers man

> i would buy old tapes of william

> crooning on to me of what it was to know

> and kick around with jack and allen.

>  how spare ass annie

> leaning on a lampost

> looked to allen.

> on the corner of newyork.

> the agony of watching

> jack loose interest in talking,

> over lunch, dead at 11:am

> i would hike over brooklyn bridge

> into a cool blue roofed room in tangiers.

> If the number man would give me copies

> of allen, squeezing his penis gently in

> overflowing joy.

> p

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:38:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

In-Reply-To:  <971125235315_1672083065@mrin41.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I agree wholeheartedly. From what I hear, UMass is usually pretty good at

preserving its archives. For everyone's peace of mind, before donating

the money for a lousy tshirt, check out UMass on your own.

 

On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, You_Be Fine wrote:

 

> In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:

> 

> <<

>  Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit

>  against a major university  to rip people off for some donations? Do you

>  think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand

>  dollars?  >>

> 

> Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that

> was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has

> a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds

> frivolous to me.

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:43:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: delete

In-Reply-To:  <347BB028.78F@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Exquisite Patricia.

j grant

 

>delete

>is it beat to delete

>i can throw a book away if

>it is missing a soul.

>do books have souls. do they go to heavon.

> if i hit the numbers man

>i would buy old tapes of william

>crooning on to me of what it was to know

>and kick around with jack and allen.

> how spare ass annie

>leaning on a lampost

>looked to allen.

>on the corner of newyork.

>the agony of watching

>jack loose interest in talking,

>over lunch, dead at 11:am

>i would hike over brooklyn bridge

>into a cool blue roofed room in tangiers.

>If the number man would give me copies

>of allen, squeezing his penis gently in

>overflowing joy.

>p

 

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                     Details  on-line by 11-27-97

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      592,901 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-01-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:43:05 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

In-Reply-To:  <971126000555_-255281152@mrin83.mail.aol.com> from "You_Be Fine"

              at Nov 26, 97 00:05:55 am

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to

> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial

> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until

> AFTER the holidays.

 

I vote yes on this proposal!  But "can the center hold"?

 

> I'm not interested in the subject and don't want to spend the time. I want to

> talk about jack. and yeah, I saw that site at Levi's and it's

> GRRRRRRRRRR-EAT!

 

Thanks, and thanks to everybody who said they liked it.  Well,

BEAT-L is a great place to find material (thanks again Patricia),

and I just hope it stays that way.

 

Also by the way for anybody who's around New York City next Tuesday,

I'm going to be debuting a few minutes from the secret project I've

been working on for over a year, a digital movie version of

Dostoevsky's "Notes From Underground" updated to take place in

modern-day Manhattan.  It's strange as hell, and that's all I

can say.  Anyway this'll be part of a web writer's reading

at 7pm December 2nd at 678 Broadway (near 4th Street), and

is being arranged by my friend Xander Mellish (more info at

http://www.xmel.com/webwriters.html).

 

Okay, enough plugging ... thanks again for all the nice words

about "Sliced Bardo" ... happy thanksgiving everybody.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                    |

|                                                     |

|     Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|      (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                     |

|          "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"       |

|            (a real book, like on paper)             |

|               also at http://coffeehousebook.com    |

|                                                     |

|                   *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                     |

|        "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |

|                                       -- Ric Ocasek |

-------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:21:26 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "THE SNARK IS A BOOJUM...." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Burroughs archives

 

For those of you who were interested in the Burroughs archives at Ohio State

University, I may have some information for you soon.James Grauerholz called me

up and asked if I wanted to do some photo reasearch for a new biography on

Burroughs.Of course I said yes, so I hope to begin soon.The book will be pub-

 lished by the Bloomsbury Press, same as did the Kerouac book; ANGLEHEADED

 HIPSTER. As soon as I know more, I will pass it on to everyone.

  Don't forget to read WSB's Thanksgiving Prayer before dinner tomorrow.

 

---Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:00 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bill Gargan and Beat-L

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) - The FREE way to

 access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!

 

 

Bill Gargan and Beat-L,

 

If any of my regular correspondents have been wondering where I have gone--I

 have suffered a computer crash.  Am now trying to catch up at my fathers--all

 459 messages!  I'll be back, ready or not.

 

Bill--I don't have the "unsubscribe" address.  Could you unsub me until I can

 start dealing with this mail flow?

 

Meanwhile.  If anyone truly  wants to reach me it will require a

 call--650-365-6312.

 

Happy Thanksgiving.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:55:57 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:53 PM 11/25/97 -0500, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:

> 

><< 

> Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit

> against a major university  to rip people off for some donations? Do you

> think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand

> dollars?  >>

> 

>Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that

>was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has

>a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds

>frivolous to me.

> 

> 

 

The 20K retainer is for legal fess.  Sad isn't it that lawyer fees are worth

more than historical documents and interviews.

 

But on the other hand it is not sad.  It doesn't matter how much they can

fetch (eg $7500) what matters is their interest.  I believe in preservation

of things.  That ostensibly is what libraries should do.  In terms of the

Lowell Library's side of it I am waiting for you to talk to them and let us

know.

 

One comment I have is what about the publisher of Memory Babe. I would hope

they might take an interest in these documents and hopefully would be

interested in provided funding.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:02:36 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:

>> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to

>> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial

>> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until

>> AFTER the holidays.

> 

>I vote yes on this proposal!  But "can the center hold"?

 

 

I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!

 

I love the archive debates.

 

(And I am not a participant in them--I have no vested interest at all).

 

I would say that this plea by You_be_Fine would carry a little more weight

if he wasn't the one who cast the first stone (and answered the first return

volley as well).

 

He starts a flame war and then starts saying "let's not have a flame war."

 

You_Be_Fine, your posts on Kerouac's writings are really good and full of

info and familiarity and knowledge.  I enjoy them.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:15:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

 

In a message dated 97-11-25 08:48:57 EST, you write:

 

<< 

 > Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis.  It would be

 > interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did

 > any good.  After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,

 > so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?

 > WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.

 >

 > Mike Rice

  >>

 

"Not I," said the fly...

 

-LD

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:47:58 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:15 PM 11/26/97 -0500, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-11-25 08:48:57 EST, you write:

> 

><< 

> > Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis.  It would be

> > interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did

> > any good.  After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,

> > so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?

> > WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.

> >

> > Mike Rice

 

Yes as soon as i saw this ad i immediately walked to my car and drove to the

mall.

 

It was 6 am in the morning and i was not yet dressed but i was compelled  I

waited for 4 hours outside the little gratelike protective door until an

employee came and unlocked the bottom of it and pulled the grate up

chukkachukkahcukka

 

i then walked in to the store as i removed my wallet and removed all my

credit cards from the wallet and held them in the palm of my mind with my

arm oustretch palm up and approached the worker there.

 

Khakis i said

 

khakis

 

use my credit cards i have thousands dollar limit please use all

 

khakis

 

to make a long story short:

 

 

GAP Khakis 8 bucks apiece 5 for 35 20 for 125

 

email me shipping paid at my end

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:13:03 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Bill Gargan and Beat-L

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:00 -0800 from

              <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

 

Happy Thanksgiving, James.  Sorry to hear about your computer problem.  I've de

leted you from the list.  You can resubscribe or email me when you're ready and

 I'll put you back on.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:39:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Before you reach into your pocket...

In-Reply-To:  <199711261802.KAA13431@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:

>>> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to

>>> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial

>>> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until

>>> AFTER the holidays.

>> 

>>I vote yes on this proposal!  But "can the center hold"?

> 

> 

>I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!

> 

>I love the archive debates.

> 

>(And I am not a participant in them--I have no vested interest at all).

> 

>I would say that this plea by You_be_Fine would carry a little more weight

>if he wasn't the one who cast the first stone (and answered the first return

>volley as well).

> 

>He starts a flame war and then starts saying "let's not have a flame war."

> 

>You_Be_Fine, your posts on Kerouac's writings are really good and full of

>info and familiarity and knowledge.  I enjoy them.

 

I must have missed something. I cannot remember seeing anything resembling

a flame from a pro-preservation post. If there has been I'd appreciate

having them forwarded to me because that is a waste of time and energy.

 

j grant

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                     Details  on-line by 11-27-97

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      592,901 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-01-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:45:39 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Lawlor, William" <wlawlor@UWSP.EDU>

Subject:      montgomery, john

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Ah, friends, is it true that John Montgomery died in 1993?

 

And that new book on Beat women from Serpent's Tail!  In what city does

that press exist? and is the book a 1997 publication?

 

Best,

 

Bill of the North Woods

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:59:39 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bill Gargan and Beat-L

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:00 -0800

>Reply-To:stauffer@PACBELL.NET

>From: James Stauffer <>

>Subject:    Birthday Bash

 

>Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) - The

FREE way to

> access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!

> 

 

If I don't get an answer from you I will call you this evening. I

thought I would give it a try since MailStart works like Hot Mail which

I am using from a computer at work right now.

 

On Saturday December 6 at 9 p.m. ther will be a surprise birthday party

for Ramah Downtown San Jose at the Germania. I hope you can make it. It

should be fun.

 

I guess a computer crash is a minor disaster these days. Hopefully you

are on your way to recovery.

 

Happy Thanksgiving

 

leon

 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:29:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Serpent's Tail ...and montgomery, john

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi all,

 

        I'll let someone else speak to the John Montgomery question.

 

        Regarding the Serpent's Tail book - a gift from my first born on my

birthday a few weeks ago - it is excellent. I've been meaning to post about

it and must have missed any earlier posts about it.  My copy was bought here

in Montreal, editor Richard Peabody, High Risk / Serpent'ss Tail books,

published in 1997, London and New York, web site www.serpentstail.com.

 

        A wonderful range of memoir extracts, poetry, and reportage with

nice punchy little bios of the players at the back. Really expanded my

knowledge and appreciateion of these writers, particularly Hettie Jones, Jan

Kerouac, Carolyn Cassady, Joan Haverty Kerouac, Mimi Albert, Diane Di

Prima....all of them and I haven't even dealt with the poetry yet!

 

        Recommended. I really raced through the prose parts.

 

        Antoine

 

 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:32:53 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:

> >> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to

> >> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial

> >> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until

> >> AFTER the holidays.

> >

> >I vote yes on this proposal!  But "can the center hold"?

> 

> I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!

> _________

 

easter 1916i have met them at close of day

coming with vivid faces

from counter or desk among grey

eighteenth-century houses.

i have passed with a nod of the head

or polite meaningless words,

or have lingered a while and said

polite meaningless words,

and thought before i had done

of a mocking tale or a gibe

to please a companion

around the fire at the club,

being certain that they and i

but lived where motley is worn:

all changed, changed utterly:

a terrible beauty is born.

 

that woman's days were spent

in ignorant good-will,

her nights in argument

until her voice grew shrill.

what voice more sweet than hers

when, young and beautiful,

she rode to harriers?

this man had kept a school

and rode our winged horse;

this other his helper and friend

was coming into his force;

he might have won fame in the end,

so sensitive his nature seemed,

so daring and sweet his thought.

 

this other man i had dreamed

a drunken, vainglorious lout.

he had done most bitter wrong

to someone near my heart,'

yet i number him in the song;

he , too, has resigned his part

in the casual comedy;

he, too, has been changed in his turn,

transformed utterly:

a terrible beauty is born.

 

hearts with one purpose alone

through summer and winter seem

enchanted to a stone

to trouble the living stream.

the horse that comes from the road,

the rider, the birds that range

from cloud to tumbling cloud,

minute by minute they change;

a shadow of cloud on the stream

changes minute by minute;

a horse-hoof slides on the brim,

and a horse plashes within it;

the long-legged moor-hens dive,

the long-legged moor-cocks call;

miute by minute they live:

the stone's in the midst of it all.

 

too long a sacrifice

can make a stone of the heart.

o when may it suffice?

that is heaven's part, our part

to murmur name upon name,

as a mother names her child

when sleep at last has come

on limbs that had run wild.

what is it but nightffall?

no, no, not night but death;

was it needless death after all?

 

for england may keep faith

for all that is done and said.

we know their dream; enough

to know they dream and are dead:

and what if excess of love

bewildered them till they died?

i write it out in a verse-

MacDonagh and MacBride

and Connolly and Pearse

now and in time to be

wherever green is worn,

all changed, changed utterly:

a terrible beauty is born.

 

an easter poem for thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold, at least

here, in beat-l

have a great day all

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:27:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

 

In a message dated 97-11-26 14:19:04 EST, you write:

 

<< 

 i then walked in to the store as i removed my wallet and removed all my

 credit cards from the wallet and held them in the palm of my mind with my

 arm oustretch palm up and approached the worker there.

 

 Khakis i said

 

 khakis

 

 use my credit cards i have thousands dollar limit please use all

 

 khakis

 

  >>

absolutely fucken hilarious, tim! do you take mastercard?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:50:17 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: allow me to...

In-Reply-To:  <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU> says:

>g'day all,

> 

[snip]

>i've been an avid reader of kerouac and other beat writers since 1965 when

>as a schoolboy i came across a hardback edition of 'on the road' in one of

>the secondhand bookstores i used to haunt - i think it was the 'girls!

>jazz! booze!' on the cover (predating 'sex'n'drugs'nrock'nroll?) that got

>my attention. learning more here of course.............

[snip]

 

        john, the same feeling for me, thinking about "on the road".

        i think back over the past, and remember the on the road as

        a story of a salesman (death of a salesman). the american way

        of life, religious of course, but keen competition and no

        pity for the loser. (Sur...

 

        saluti, rinaldo.

 

p.s. techno pun nostalgia, the Amiga 1000 was my first serious

        puter. i brought it on autumn 1986. now it's gone but a tear

        was/is on my eyes...

(to everyone, please excuse me for the digression),

r.

 

>--

>bye for now,

>#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#

>(|||||||||||||||||||)  #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)

>#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:15:47 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Stuck Inside of Mobile

In-Reply-To:  <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

http://bob.nbr.no/dok/bdx/stuck.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:50:06 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BCFA7A.965C0B60"

 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

 

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BCFA7A.965C0B60

Content-Type: text/plain;

        charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

utterly beautiful marie.  thanks for posting this.  i vote yes as well.  =

this is a time of year when all should be gentle and easy and enjoy.  i =

believe the center will hold.

 

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!!

 

ciao,  sherri

-----Original Message-----

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 12:49 PM

Subject: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)

 

 

>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

>> At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:

>> >> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow =

not to

>> >> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the =

controversial

>> >> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last =

year until

>> >> AFTER the holidays.

>> >

>> >I vote yes on this proposal!  But "can the center hold"?

>> 

>> I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!

>> _________

> 

>easter 1916i have met them at close of day

>coming with vivid faces

>from counter or desk among grey

>eighteenth-century houses.

>i have passed with a nod of the head

>or polite meaningless words,

>or have lingered a while and said

>polite meaningless words,

>and thought before i had done

>of a mocking tale or a gibe

>to please a companion

>around the fire at the club,

>being certain that they and i

>but lived where motley is worn:

>all changed, changed utterly:

>a terrible beauty is born.

> 

>that woman's days were spent

>in ignorant good-will,

>her nights in argument

>until her voice grew shrill.

>what voice more sweet than hers

>when, young and beautiful,

>she rode to harriers?

>this man had kept a school

>and rode our winged horse;

>this other his helper and friend

>was coming into his force;

>he might have won fame in the end,

>so sensitive his nature seemed,

>so daring and sweet his thought.

> 

>this other man i had dreamed

>a drunken, vainglorious lout.

>he had done most bitter wrong

>to someone near my heart,'

>yet i number him in the song;

>he , too, has resigned his part

>in the casual comedy;

>he, too, has been changed in his turn,

>transformed utterly:

>a terrible beauty is born.

> 

>hearts with one purpose alone

>through summer and winter seem

>enchanted to a stone

>to trouble the living stream.

>the horse that comes from the road,

>the rider, the birds that range

>from cloud to tumbling cloud,

>minute by minute they change;

>a shadow of cloud on the stream

>changes minute by minute;

>a horse-hoof slides on the brim,

>and a horse plashes within it;

>the long-legged moor-hens dive,

>the long-legged moor-cocks call;

>miute by minute they live:

>the stone's in the midst of it all.

> 

>too long a sacrifice

>can make a stone of the heart.

>o when may it suffice?

>that is heaven's part, our part

>to murmur name upon name,

>as a mother names her child

>when sleep at last has come

>on limbs that had run wild.

>what is it but nightffall?

>no, no, not night but death;

>was it needless death after all?

> 

>for england may keep faith

>for all that is done and said.

>we know their dream; enough

>to know they dream and are dead:

>and what if excess of love

>bewildered them till they died?

>i write it out in a verse-

>MacDonagh and MacBride

>and Connolly and Pearse

>now and in time to be

>wherever green is worn,

>all changed, changed utterly:

>a terrible beauty is born.

> 

>an easter poem for thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold, at =

least

>here, in beat-l

>have a great day all

>mc

> 

 

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>utterly =

beautiful marie.&nbsp;=20

thanks for posting this.&nbsp; i vote yes as well.&nbsp; this is a time =

of year=20

when all should be gentle and easy and enjoy.&nbsp; i believe the center =

will=20

hold.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript =

size=3D5></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>Happy =

Thanksgiving to all of=20

you!!</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript =

size=3D5></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>ciao,&nbsp;=20

sherri</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =

Marie=20

Countryman &lt;<A=20

href=3D"mailto:country@SOVER.NET">country@SOVER.NET</A>&gt;<BR>To: <A=20

href=3D"mailto:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU">BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU</A> &lt;<A =

 

href=3D"mailto:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU">BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU</A>&gt;<BR>=

Date:=20

Wednesday, November 26, 1997 12:49 PM<BR>Subject: a terrible beatuty is =

born(was=20

estate shit)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>&gt;Timothy K. Gallaher=20

wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you =

wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;=20

&gt;&gt; I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow =

not=20

to<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; participate in anything resembling a flame war =

regarding=20

the controversial<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; issues we've all suffered through =

on this=20

newsgroup for the last year until<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; AFTER the=20

holidays.<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;I vote yes on this =

proposal!&nbsp;=20

But &quot;can the center hold&quot;?<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I vote=20

yes!!!!!!!!!!<BR>&gt;&gt; _________<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;easter 1916i have met =

them at=20

close of day<BR>&gt;coming with vivid faces<BR>&gt;from counter or desk =

among=20

grey<BR>&gt;eighteenth-century houses.<BR>&gt;i have passed with a nod =

of the=20

head<BR>&gt;or polite meaningless words,<BR>&gt;or have lingered a while =

and=20

said<BR>&gt;polite meaningless words,<BR>&gt;and thought before i had=20

done<BR>&gt;of a mocking tale or a gibe<BR>&gt;to please a=20

companion<BR>&gt;around the fire at the club,<BR>&gt;being certain that =

they and=20

i<BR>&gt;but lived where motley is worn:<BR>&gt;all changed, changed=20

utterly:<BR>&gt;a terrible beauty is born.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;that woman's =

days were=20

spent<BR>&gt;in ignorant good-will,<BR>&gt;her nights in =

argument<BR>&gt;until=20

her voice grew shrill.<BR>&gt;what voice more sweet than =

hers<BR>&gt;when, young=20

and beautiful,<BR>&gt;she rode to harriers?<BR>&gt;this man had kept a=20

school<BR>&gt;and rode our winged horse;<BR>&gt;this other his helper =

and=20

friend<BR>&gt;was coming into his force;<BR>&gt;he might have won fame =

in the=20

end,<BR>&gt;so sensitive his nature seemed,<BR>&gt;so daring and sweet =

his=20

thought.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;this other man i had dreamed<BR>&gt;a drunken,=20

vainglorious lout.<BR>&gt;he had done most bitter wrong<BR>&gt;to =

someone near=20

my heart,'<BR>&gt;yet i number him in the song;<BR>&gt;he , too, has =

resigned=20

his part<BR>&gt;in the casual comedy;<BR>&gt;he, too, has been changed =

in his=20

turn,<BR>&gt;transformed utterly:<BR>&gt;a terrible beauty is=20

born.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;hearts with one purpose alone<BR>&gt;through summer =

and=20

winter seem<BR>&gt;enchanted to a stone<BR>&gt;to trouble the living=20

stream.<BR>&gt;the horse that comes from the road,<BR>&gt;the rider, the =

birds=20

that range<BR>&gt;from cloud to tumbling cloud,<BR>&gt;minute by minute =

they=20

change;<BR>&gt;a shadow of cloud on the stream<BR>&gt;changes minute by=20

minute;<BR>&gt;a horse-hoof slides on the brim,<BR>&gt;and a horse =

plashes=20

within it;<BR>&gt;the long-legged moor-hens dive,<BR>&gt;the long-legged =

 

moor-cocks call;<BR>&gt;miute by minute they live:<BR>&gt;the stone's in =

the=20

midst of it all.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;too long a sacrifice<BR>&gt;can make a =

stone of=20

the heart.<BR>&gt;o when may it suffice?<BR>&gt;that is heaven's part, =

our=20

part<BR>&gt;to murmur name upon name,<BR>&gt;as a mother names her=20

child<BR>&gt;when sleep at last has come<BR>&gt;on limbs that had run=20

wild.<BR>&gt;what is it but nightffall?<BR>&gt;no, no, not night but=20

death;<BR>&gt;was it needless death after all?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;for =

england may=20

keep faith<BR>&gt;for all that is done and said.<BR>&gt;we know their =

dream;=20

enough<BR>&gt;to know they dream and are dead:<BR>&gt;and what if excess =

of=20

love<BR>&gt;bewildered them till they died?<BR>&gt;i write it out in a=20

verse-<BR>&gt;MacDonagh and MacBride<BR>&gt;and Connolly and =

Pearse<BR>&gt;now=20

and in time to be<BR>&gt;wherever green is worn,<BR>&gt;all changed, =

changed=20

utterly:<BR>&gt;a terrible beauty is born.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;an easter poem =

for=20

thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold, at least<BR>&gt;here, =

in=20

beat-l<BR>&gt;have a great day all<BR>&gt;mc<BR>&gt;</BODY></HTML>

 

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=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:03:32 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap Ad

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>In a message dated 97-11-26 14:19:04 EST, you write:

> 

><< 

> i then walked in to the store as i removed my wallet and removed all my

> credit cards from the wallet and held them in the palm of my mind with my

> arm oustretch palm up and approached the worker there.

> 

> Khakis i said

> 

> khakis

> 

> use my credit cards i have thousands dollar limit please use all

> 

> khakis

> 

>  >>

>absolutely fucken hilarious, tim! do you take mastercard?

 

you got it !!1

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:48:40 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: montgomery, john

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William Lawlor wrote:

 

> Ah, friends, is it true that John Montgomery died in 1993?

 

Yes, sad but true.  But of course his writing and books shine on...

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:53:40 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>

Subject:      Re: allow me to...

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711260357070867@classic.msn.com>

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Hi there Sherri, on 26-Nov-97 you wrote...

 

>welcome John.  how bout telling us about thos articles you have?   ciao,

ahh, i will i will.

in the meantime, i suspect there isn't a suffocating rigidity in here, but

can i ask about certain protocols that people or the listmangagers may have

devised to allow some semblance of courtesy and consideration to masquerade

benignly as spontaneous bop prosody and freewheeeling chaos

 

do people get annoyed if the posting you're replying to is quoted entirely,

with a "Yeah! me too" appended to the end - other lists i am on train you

out of it pretty quickly and gently. ( Sherri, /you/ did this, but if you

think this is directed at you, you're a bad bad woman :-) )

 

what about replying to the list when it may have been smarter to reply

direct to sender

and what about not changing the subject title to reflect that youre not

really replying but starting a new thread, but lazily 'borrowed' the

address?

 

im not a fascist, just trying to get along heeheeheee ! finding this list,

i feel like a desert hyena who's tumbled into an oasis, and i want to swim

here along time - i've read so much here already that's brought back that

heady feeling i used to have as i read the beat writings- god it is so

tempting to contact some old friends and remind them of their putdowns (not

to mention Time mag, who relentlessy wrote off or patronised each novel

that got published.

 

ps thanks to those who sent a welcome

 

--

bye for now,

#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#

(|||||||||||||||||||)  #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)

#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:05:45 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: allow me to...

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John Pullicino wrote:

> 

> Hi there Sherri, on 26-Nov-97 you wrote...

> 

> >welcome John.  how bout telling us about thos articles you have?   ciao,

> ahh, i will i will.

> in the meantime, i suspect there isn't a suffocating rigidity in here, but

> can i ask about certain protocols that people or the listmangagers may have

> devised to allow some semblance of courtesy and consideration to masquerade

> benignly as spontaneous bop prosody and freewheeeling chaos

> 

hey man, free wheeling chaos man, like it. cool, dig it,  me too. I got

a back channel once that told me to be more careful of my spelling. I

dug it man.  now the only thing i would like to add is i think everyone

should  only post interesting  things, nothing boring.

P

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:03:29 -0500

Reply-To:     blackj@bigmagic.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>

Subject:      JOKE:INSTALLMENT #1

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There was a strict trappist monastrry.  The monks would take turns

saying only one thing at beakfast once a year.  It was something like

the ideal Beat-L would be.

--

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:12:43 -0500

Reply-To:     blackj@bigmagic.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>

Subject:      JOKE: INSTALLMENT #2

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When it comes time for one of the monks to take a turn saying something,

he says: "The rolls are nice and fresh this morning."

--

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:49:08 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      more yeats (and yeah, i know it's off topic

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the second coming

 

turning and turning in the widening gyre

the falcon cannot hear the falconer:

things fall apart; the center cannot hold;

mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

the blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

the ceremony of innocence is drowned;

the best lack all conviction, while the worst

are full of passionate intensity.

 

surely some revelation is at hand;

surely the second coming is  at hand;

the second coming! hardly are those words out

when a vast image out of spiritus mundi

troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert

a shape with lion body and the head of a man

a gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,

is moving its slow thighs, while all about it

reel the shadows of the indignant desert birds

the darkness drops again; but now i know

the twenty centuries of stonly sleep

were vest to nightmare by a rocking cradle,

and what rough beast its hour com round at last,

slouches toward bethlehem to be born? 1921

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:58:08 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)

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thanks sherri. i think we all need a little dip into yeats to keep us

honest. i just posted the widening gyre poem as well.

and it's two weeks until i get on that train!!! yahoooo!!!!!!!!!

i'm already packing !

marie

 

sherri wrote:

 

>  utterly beautiful marie.  thanks for posting this.  i vote yes as

> well.  this is a time of year when all should be gentle and easy and

> enjoy.  i believe the center will hold. Happy Thanksgiving to all of

> you!! ciao,  sherri-----Original Message-----

> From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 12:49 PM

> Subject: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)>Timothy K.

> Gallaher wrote:

> >

> >> At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:

> >> >> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow

> not to

> >> >> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the

> controversial

> >> >> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last

> year until

> >> >> AFTER the holidays.

> >> >

> >> >I vote yes on this proposal!  But "can the center hold"?

> >>

> >> I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!

> >> _________

> >

> >easter 1916i have met them at close of day

> >coming with vivid faces

> >from counter or desk among grey

> >eighteenth-century houses.

> >i have passed with a nod of the head

> >or polite meaningless words,

> >or have lingered a while and said

> >polite meaningless words,

> >and thought before i had done

> >of a mocking tale or a gibe

> >to please a companion

> >around the fire at the club,

> >being certain that they and i

> >but lived where motley is worn:

> >all changed, changed utterly:

> >a terrible beauty is born.

> >

> >that woman's days were spent

> >in ignorant good-will,

> >her nights in argument

> >until her voice grew shrill.

> >what voice more sweet than hers

> >when, young and beautiful,

> >she rode to harriers?

> >this man had kept a school

> >and rode our winged horse;

> >this other his helper and friend

> >was coming into his force;

> >he might have won fame in the end,

> >so sensitive his nature seemed,

> >so daring and sweet his thought.

> >

> >this other man i had dreamed

> >a drunken, vainglorious lout.

> >he had done most bitter wrong

> >to someone near my heart,'

> >yet i number him in the song;

> >he , too, has resigned his part

> >in the casual comedy;

> >he, too, has been changed in his turn,

> >transformed utterly:

> >a terrible beauty is born.

> >

> >hearts with one purpose alone

> >through summer and winter seem

> >enchanted to a stone

> >to trouble the living stream.

> >the horse that comes from the road,

> >the rider, the birds that range

> >from cloud to tumbling cloud,

> >minute by minute they change;

> >a shadow of cloud on the stream

> >changes minute by minute;

> >a horse-hoof slides on the brim,

> >and a horse plashes within it;

> >the long-legged moor-hens dive,

> >the long-legged moor-cocks call;

> >miute by minute they live:

> >the stone's in the midst of it all.

> >

> >too long a sacrifice

> >can make a stone of the heart.

> >o when may it suffice?

> >that is heaven's part, our part

> >to murmur name upon name,

> >as a mother names her child

> >when sleep at last has come

> >on limbs that had run wild.

> >what is it but nightffall?

> >no, no, not night but death;

> >was it needless death after all?

> >

> >for england may keep faith

> >for all that is done and said.

> >we know their dream; enough

> >to know they dream and are dead:

> >and what if excess of love

> >bewildered them till they died?

> >i write it out in a verse-

> >MacDonagh and MacBride

> >and Connolly and Pearse

> >now and in time to be

> >wherever green is worn,

> >all changed, changed utterly:

> >a terrible beauty is born.

> >

> >an easter poem for thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold,

> at least

> >here, in beat-l

> >have a great day all

> >mc

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 1997 08:30:04 -0500

Reply-To:     blackj@bigmagic.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>

Subject:      JOKE: INSTALLNEBT #3

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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The next year it was the second monk's turn to speak.  He said, "Pass

the butter, please."

--

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:13:26 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      L'angelo caduto.

In-Reply-To:  <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

carissimi,

 

the book "Angelheaded Hipster. A Life of Jack Kerouac"

by Steve Turner, in italian it's called

"Jack Kerouac. L'angelo caduto" translated by Alessandra Osti.

I think it's a worth purcase.

 

strangely (?) in the Feltrinelli's bookstore chain both J. Kerouac and

W. S. Burroughs are arranged in the italian literature shelf.

 

A. Ginsberg's books on the contrary are arranged precisely.

 

saluti,

Rinaldo.

* Tristessa, maybe Keroauc's sly homage to Bonjour Tristesse

(which had made Francoise Sagan a star overnight in 1955)

--Aram Saroyan, foreword to Big Sur

*

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:56:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)

 

Marie- that was a so beautiful poem- especially hit me after read Michael

Collins book no too long ago and then saw movie. great work!   GT

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:47:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: L'angelo caduto.

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971127191326.006884f8@pop.gpnet.it>

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AngelHeaded Hipser has the best pictures. Its a costly purchase but well

worth it.

~Nancy

 

 

On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> carissimi,

> 

> the book "Angelheaded Hipster. A Life of Jack Kerouac"

> by Steve Turner, in italian it's called

> "Jack Kerouac. L'angelo caduto" translated by Alessandra Osti.

> I think it's a worth purcase.

> 

> strangely (?) in the Feltrinelli's bookstore chain both J. Kerouac and

> W. S. Burroughs are arranged in the italian literature shelf.

> 

> A. Ginsberg's books on the contrary are arranged precisely.

> 

> saluti,

> Rinaldo.

> * Tristessa, maybe Keroauc's sly homage to Bonjour Tristesse

> (which had made Francoise Sagan a star overnight in 1955)

> --Aram Saroyan, foreword to Big Sur

> *

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

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Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:58:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      The Kerouac Quarterly page updated!

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Happy Thanksgiving all! We have updated the page with more news. Bob Kealing

of Orlando, Florida writes us about his happening atJack and Memere's

cottage of 1957-8.

 

  Go to

     http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

 

      Thanks! Paul....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:15:34 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: allow me to...

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:53:40 +1000 from