=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:58:26 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac in advertisement
In-Reply-To:
<msg1251041.thr-3ff78936.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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>>Permission
to use Jack Kerouac in that GAP ad came from John Sampas, the
>>executor
of the Keroauc Estate.
I could be
wrong. Was reminded of the CA laws about rights to use images
that
Nicosia posted some time ago. Sampas could have been by-passed by Jan
Kerouac.
Interesting
how different I feel about the ads when thinking that his
daughter
Jan may sold the rights rather than Sampas.
j grant
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:53:45 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: when god twirled the world into
existence...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>
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Sara
Straw says:
>Assuming
guilt from the past is a christian theme, and I am an atheist.
>sara
>
"The
ways of the Lord lead to liberty" sayeth St. Paul...
yet a man need liberty, not God, to be
able to
follow the ways of God" ---
Gregory Corso
from
''ELEGIAC FEELINGS AMERICAN
for the memory of John Kerouac''
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:43:13 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki
Literature
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>
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At 22.16
19/11/97 -0500, Alex Howard wrote:
>Progressive
does not necessarily denote progress.
And as we all know,
>progress
does not necessarily mean good. The
guilt and responsibilty of
>the
deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki is on the head of every American.
>The
guilt and responsibility of everything that has occured out of those
>terrible
points belongs with every citizen of a country that calls itself
>any
sort of leader or player in the global cultural landscape. They
>cannot
be forgotten. Just as anyone who ignores
suffering and injustice
>because
it happens somewhere else in the world carries with them a
>responsibility for and to the victims of the Holocaust.
>
>------------------
>Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
>kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
>
Alex,
i think
people in XX century goes crazy in a lot of countries,
first of
all in italy, the place where fascism raise the flag
and making
the atomic bomb was a lot of europeans.
Gregory
Corso thinking
"You
Bomb Toy of universe... I cannot hate you... all
man hates
you they'd rather die by car-crash".
Gregory
Corso is a pacifist and he wrote the poem "Bomb"
after the
Trafalgar Square Meeting (London 1958).
The poet was
impressed by the people blinded with
hatred
against the
Bomb, he wrote the poem in Paris.
Allen
Ginsberg cutted out the typewritten poem and
sticked
them shaping as a mushroom cloud.
un caro saluto da
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:32:47 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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>>>How
can an atheist be spiritual? I
understand how spirit and the
>>>supreme
being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual
>>>do. Being spiritual implies the exisitence of
spirit which is not in line
>>>with
atheism.
>>
>> because all atheism states is the absence
of a belief in a
>>godhead,
period. now, atheism is as much a trap
as any other ism but i
>>won't
get into that.
>
>No. It
would also disclude polytheism as well.
>
>You are
saying an animist can be atheist. I
don't agree at all in that one
>cannot
differentiate irrational beliefs in spirits or Gods. All these
>beliefs
fall under an atheistic umbrella that holds the physical world is
>all
there is.
um, no.
you're misreading what was said.
"godhead" is a term
referring
to divinity. that can include multiple
gods.
KEN
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:03:34 -0500
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From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: WSB
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"I am
not one of those weak-spirited, sappy Americans who want to be liked
by all the people around them. I don't care if
people hate my guts, I assume
most of them do. The important question is:
'What are they in a position to
do about it?'" -- William S. Burroughs
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:47:32 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac in advertisement
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Interesting
how different I feel about the ads when thinking that his
>daughter
Jan may sold the rights rather than Sampas.
>
>j grant
>.-
Congratulations
Joe! I really appreciate to hear this coming from you! It
helps us
all to be more skeptical of the
conclusions advocated with
vehemence
by opponnents in a heated controversy.
You didn't
have to tell us that. But you did. That's helping us to sort
things out
about the Estate issues as well. Thanks
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:01:48 -0500
Reply-To: mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mongo BearWolf
<mongo.bearwolf@DARTMOUTH.EDU>
Organization:
Dartmouth College
Subject: Student wishing help with research
project
Comments:
cc: "Sahra A. Carey" <s23blue@lightspeed.net>
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Hi Folks...
I'm
forwarding this note from a correspondent.
Please reply directly to
Sahra
(s23blue@lightspeed.net), not to me!
{:{)}
Thanks!
--Mongo
--------------------------------------------------------
...visit...
ALLEN GINSBERG:
Shadow Changes into Bone
The Clearinghouse for all things
Ginsberg!
http://www.ginzy.com
--------------------------------------------------------
-----
FORWARDED MESSAGE FOLLOWS ------------
>
Hey! I am a student doing a major
research
>
project on the beats in San Francisco as
> part
of the national history day competition.
> Ok, I
am a little bit of a procrastinator
> and I
need eight interviews from people about
> this
subject. I have four completed,
> some
secondary sources and some primary
>
sources of information. I could really
use
> some
help. I don't exactly know who you
> are at
this moment because I just got to
> your
site but I would appreciate it if you
> have
any e-mail addresses of people I could
>
interview for this over the net or perhaps
> you
could answer some questions through
> your
expert knowledge. I only have a few:
>
> 1)What
was the primary appeal of SF for
> many
beat writers and artists?
>
> 2)What
atmosphere was created there due
> to the
influx of the beat culture?
>
>
3)What, if any, major ideas came out of
> the
large beat community in relation to their
> impact
on today's society.
>
> 4)From
an economic stadnpoint, what
>
situation were the new "migrants" in
>
financially and what changes occured
> within
the city during the time.
>
> I
understand if you can't answer these
>
questions but any sort of blabbering will help
> me and
I need a few more interviews even
> though
the ones I already go are really
>
strong. Maybe you could pass this along
to
> others
as well and have them contact me:
>
>
s23blue@lightspeed.net
>
> Sahra
Carey
>
Bakersfield, CA
>
> Thanks
for any of your help!
>
> -sahra
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:10:37 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: when god twirled the world into
existence...
MIME-Version:
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Was your
point that there is no point?
s
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:12:31 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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Thank you,
Ken.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:13:57 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: WSB
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Ken,
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, truth feels good, like a hot tub.
s.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:19:22 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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You have a
*belief* in a common view that is erroneous.
I use the
dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the
primary
source of the meanings of words for the general populace.
s.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:25:01 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
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Voilla!
Its the
cover not the book, it's what you look like, not what you are,
it's personality,
not character.
Was it ever
any different?
s
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:42:41 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Kerouac's Reading
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While doing my research, I ran across this notebook
entry of Kerouac's from
September
1951. This explains more of how Kerouac viewed himself as a writer.
He writes:
"I'm going to be a Wolfean Proust, a Whitmanesque Dostoevsky, a
Melvillean
Celine, a Faulknerian Genet - in fact a Kerouassadian Ginsbergian
Shakespeare."
An irony is, that Ginsberg influenced Kerouac
in his writing while
Ginsberg
himself, at a round-table discussion at the Old Worthen in Lowell,
MA. on
October 3rd, 1992, explained that he was very much an imitator of
Kerouac.
On another
vein, but the same thread:
A precise notation of Kerouac about Twain's
story, "Mysterious Stranger"
can in fact
be connected to his sketches for Doctor Sax. He quotes in his
notebook,
"Life is a dream...you are but a vagrant thought wandering
forlornly
in shoreless eternities." A careful reading of Twain's story can
draw many
parallels to Kerouac and his ideas for Doctor Sax. This
observation
from February 1950 leads Kerouac to write, "Man haunts the
earth. Man
is on a ledge noising his life." The idea that we are amidst
eternity,
that it lives on within and without us parallels Mysterious
Stranger
with K's ideas for early plans of On the Road and Doctor Sax.
That's all for now! Don't forget to buy the
first volume of Selected
Letters in
hardcover from us!$10.00! They are brand new and will also come
with a free
copy of The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. I, No. 2.
See The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page!
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:50:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac GAP ad
MIME-Version:
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If anyone
hasn't seen this ad and would like to, I have it on my site at
http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/images/kerouac/kerouac-gap.gif. This
is what
happens when you code the file for one name and forget to actually
change the
name of the file afterwards.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:57:12 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac GAP ad
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Alex Howard
wrote:
>
> If
anyone hasn't seen this ad and would like to, I have it on my site at
> http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/images/kerouac/kerouac-gap.gif. This
> is
what happens when you code the file for one name and forget to actually
> change
the name of the file afterwards.
>
>
------------------
> Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
>
kh14586@am.appstate.edu
P.O. Box 12149
>
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586
Boone, NC 28608
Thanks
Alex. It was one of those ads where i
would never have
remembered
who was doing the advertising. That
happens to me all the
time. I thought the image of Jack was pretty
good. Are there images of
the other
nasty, naughty advertisements available out there anywhere?
After
seeing this ad i can see how it could pull people into wondering
about
Kerouac more than wandering into some store in some mall somewhere
in
someplace sometime. But what do i know
about such important things
as Gap Ads
and everything Jack stood for anyway -- afterall my
subconscious
is still hungup on Nagasaki!!!! <still laughing at my
incompetent
typing last night>
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:38:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac GAP ad
In-Reply-To: <3474CE58.5C3D@midusa.net>
MIME-Version:
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>
time. I thought the image of Jack was
pretty good. Are there images of
> the
other nasty, naughty advertisements available out there anywhere?
That's the
only one I've seen though I can't remember where I got it. If
The GAP has
a site, they probably have them all unless they've been sued
by
now. Think its interesting that's the
same picture as on the cover of
Joyce
Johnson's _Minor Characters_. Except in
this one she's been
airbrushed
out. At the big Beat Conference in NY a
few years ago, she
said that
that was pretty metaphorical of the place of women in the group:
there when
necessary, airbrushed out when not.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu
P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:03:51 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady
ad.......formerly re:kerouac
ads
MIME-Version:
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>
Hey guys,
my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we
could
somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see? I think
the theme
music, led zep, would be perfect!
cathy
>
Subject:
> Re: Kerouac ads
> Date:
> Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:24:56 -0800
> From:
> "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
>
>
> >At
03:19 AM 11/20/97 UT, you wrote:
>
>>----------
>
>>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List on behalf of Eric Lytle
>
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 19,
1997 12:00 PM
>
>>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>>Subject: Re: Kerouac ads
>
>>
> >
>
>>I feel that you bring up a very good point. But, I think the line in the
song
>
>>was kind of a tribute. Whereas
the feeling I get from the GAP ad is
>
>>different. Their intent was not
to make an artistic statement, or celebrate
>
>>Kerouac's life and work. It was
a coldcalculated attempt to hook certain
>
>>segments of the public into buying their clothes. Their motivation was
purely
>
>>and simply money. They don't
care that this contradicts everything Jack
>
>>believed in. They reduce his memory to a marketing strategy. I don't
know,
>
>>maybe it will generate interest.
In fact it probably will. But
interest in
>
>>what? Kerouac's art, or his
status as "Beat King."
>
>>Sorry . . .I'm venting.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
> >So
here's the antidote ad, sneaked on the air by guerilla video
>
>men tampering with big media's satellite feeds:
> >
> >Both
Kerouac and Neal Cassady, clad in khakis
for the Gap are
>
>boosting a '49 mercury from a parking lot in Kansas city circa
>
>1951. Sal and Dean are pushing the
car down a slight incline.
>
>Dean dives in the driver's side to
hot wire it,
>
>Sal silently steer-pushes the coupe from the lot. The motor
>
>coughs to life, the two beats flash smiles; Success! they
>
>roar away. In the fading dual
exhaust smoke, an announcer
>
>purrs: "The Gap..., the
difference between what's really
>
>true and what they're trying to put over on us this time..!"
> >
>
>(Camera dollies up and out leaving THE GAP label full-screen)
> >
>
>Mike Rice
>
>
Re-read On the Road and Sal's feelings about Dean's Car stealing when they
> were
together and you might re-evaluate who is trying to "put one over over
>
time"
>
>
>
Personally I couldn't care less about the gap or these gap ads. Who cares.
> We
don't own Jack kerouac anyhow so what is it to us.
>
> I
think the ads were nice because it was a good picture. If someone wanted
> a
picture of kerouac they could have trimmed off the Gap part.
>
> I also
think kerouac would have done ads if he were alive. Burroughs did
> shoe
ads. Ginsberg did the Khaki ads and he
was alive.
>
>
Nothing wrong with pants.
>
> And
Mike, I must add, nice mise en scene.
Led Zeppellin's when the levy
> breaks
should be the background muzak for this commercial. It will be for
> a
Mercedes Benz. Kerouac and cassady had
such great taste that they wanted
> to steal a Mercedres.
>
> gesundheit.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:44:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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saras@sisna.com,.Internet writes:
>You have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.
>I use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the
>primary source of the meanings of words for the general populace.
thank you! i didn't want to say it for fear of a stupid discussion
about semantics, but semantics is one of the most important aspects of
language, otherwise no one knows what anyone else is talking about. it
doesn't matter what the common conception is, it can be wrong, atheism
is specifically godhead relative, mono or poly, what this common view
is that has been described is not atheistic but aspiritual.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:04:21 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>
> saras@sisna.com,.Internet writes:
> >You have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.
> >I use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the
> >primary source of the meanings of words for the general populace.
>
> thank you! i didn't want to say it for fear of a stupid discussion
> about semantics, but semantics is one of the most important aspects of
> language, otherwise no one knows what anyone else is talking about. it
> doesn't matter what the common conception is, it can be wrong, atheism
> is specifically godhead relative, mono or poly, what this common view
> is that has been described is not atheistic but aspiritual.
thank god someone has said this, the atheism i believe in is a good kind
spiritual atheism.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:07:08 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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thankyou for your thankyou.
My big ole' dictionary sits right here beside me, cause, frankly,
communication is important to me, and I like to have *resources*...
People who make up their own definitions are either fools or geniuses,
and I am neither.
I USED to think I was pretty smart, until I got on the internet and
found out, NOPE, I just live in an area filled with double digit IQers.
Oh well.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:14:42 -0600
Reply-To: vorys@concentric.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap ad.
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Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched? The Neon
appears to imply GAP rather than BAR. In which case the idea of Kerouac
hanging out at a clothing store becomes ridiculous.IMHO
Overall if the ad gets someone to read Kerouac who ordinarily
wouldn't, I fail to see the harm. For those who are offended ... don't
but the product.
I vaguely remember Kerouac writing something about Arrow shirts. Am I
off on this or does someone else know of the source?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:41:58 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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Sara Straw wrote:
>
> thankyou for your thankyou.
> My big ole' dictionary sits right here beside me, cause, frankly,
> communication is important to me, and I like to have *resources*...
> People who make up their own definitions are either fools or geniuses,
> and I am neither.
> I USED to think I was pretty smart, until I got on the internet and
> found out, NOPE, I just live in an area filled with double digit IQers.
> Oh well.
> s
I collect dictionaries -- but i've been known to make up my own
definitions and even make up new words for fun and symbolic frolicking.
A fine line and balance of not letting my dictionaries own my language
and yet not flashing so far from the denotation (a real lie of a word)
that communicating is impossible.
Just bought every Xmas tape in town (almost) festivity will be burned
into my walls whether i or my walls like it or not. Right now James
Brown's Xmas music. HEY AMERICA ITS Xmastime!
Ooops. Gotta do that Turkey thing first. Thanksgiving Prayer by WSB on
"Dead City Radio" is all that is really necessary for that holiday.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:38:21 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
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>It's a big world, bud, with lots of assholes in it. Those on death row,
>and those on Madison Avenue, and those living down the street. Be
>idealistic, but don't expect the world to come along... as long as there
>are assholes in the world, they are gonna screw it up. Not only that,
>shit happens regardless of assholes. Complaining about government has
>only one logical conclusion... get in there and run for office!
>SHOW us what you are talking about!
mmm.. i cringe at being called idealistic cause i like to think
i've left it behind.. it's not so much idealism i don;t think, as some
basic instinctual value placed on life. regardless of morals, ethics,
or other societorial imposed norms. i could never run for office
though, ack, politics bores me to no end.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:13:04 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gary Grismore <ggrismor@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
In-Reply-To: <msg1259755.thr-68b654d4.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>my problem isn't with the fact that it's being presented, but the
>manner in which it is done and accepted; the fact that she was grinning
>at the deliberate cessation of life. makes me wonder what's happening
>in our heads, is compassion dead?
Compassion is as alive as it's ever been, though that's not saying much.
Public executions have been forms of mass entertainment for hundreds of
years:
*The last public guillotining (sp?) in France occurred on
June 17, 1939, witnessed by a noisy, determined mob at street-level, as
well as a group of higher-class clientelle who had rented every possible
window/balcony/vantage point at premium prices. The crowd cheered at 4:50
am when the head dropped and graphic photos soon graced the front cover
of almost every French newspaper.
*The last public execution in the USA reportedly occurred in Owensboro, KY
in 1936. This was witnessed by a crowd of 20,000, many of whom had
attended all-night 'hanging parties' to prime themselves for the 5:12 am
hanging. A cheer was raised at the falling of the bolt, and soon the
still-warm body was mobbed by a throng of souvenir-hunters ripping and
tearing at clothing, flesh, and hair. Two doctors were finally able to
make an examination upon the body - their report of heartbeats eliciting a
groan throughout the crowd, until a pronouncal of death was finally
declared at 5:45.
What's my point - Hell, I don't know. I guess only that we are going in
the right direction. We are not there yet, and some dizzy bimbo on TV
feeding us murder with a smile, is a disturbing reminder of that, but
closing our eyes to the past and the progress that has been made is not
going to help. What is? Again, I don't know. Here are some ideas: Join
amnesty international, vote Libertarian, write a letter to the editor...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:50:30 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: is this still beat-l?
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first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to
any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for
consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.
and i have a bit of an empty head right now,
but (armorplated glass house)
i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
or philosophy 101
does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
winner gets sound of one hand clapping.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:54:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady ad.......formerly
re:kerouac ads
Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net
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>Hey guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we
>could somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see? I think
>the theme music, led zep, would be perfect!
LED ZEPPELIN!! alright, a fellow fan... interestingly enough,
Robert Plant has a pretty wanderlust beat attitude...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:55:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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>i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
>or philosophy 101
>does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
>winner gets sound of one hand clapping.
i empathize with you, but it's all relative... one way or another.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:45:27 -0500
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From: Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Atheism -- Agnostic
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I once, paradoxically, put my faith in atheism. This was intertwined with a
view that spirituality was religion, that religion's only honorable purpose
was to explain the unexplainable, and that the majority of answers that
religion gave - If God created man, who created God? - simply removed the
question one step.
As the years past, my distrust of organized religion did not diminish, but a
feeling of being attached to something bigger grew. My first definable
spiritual experience did not occur in a church or mosque or temple but
cross-country skiing, in Northern Quebec, through the ancient hills of the
Laurentians. I was alone in the blue sky-ed, thirty below wilderness, high
on exertion. The crisp sun peering through the leafless maples, dancing on
the fresh trackless snow, the world silent save for the sounds of the trees
creaking and my own panting. And then, it shifted. I was no longer a lone
skier in nature but a small part of nature. I felt connected, not only to
the natural beauty surrounding me, but to my known & unknown ancestors, my
descendants to come, to everything and everyone. I was a part of this big
rolling ball of life and it felt good. There was no past, no future, there
was only the moment, the greater we, that always was and would continue to
be. In bliss I floated, not seeing angels or Gods, but simply being. I
slid out of this heightened awareness cold, miles from the cabin, serene and
forever changed.
This short glimpse made me put away my proudly worn label of atheism. I
still see no need for a supreme power, or for the fatalistic answers
he/she/it may give. I am not the center or end point but a mere speck in
the continuum. I like the term agnostic -- self defined as a disbelief in
organized religion but a consciousness of something bigger. Being spiritual
is being connected, the touchstone of acceptance & contentment. It is not me
vs you or man vs nature, for on a higher level, we are all one.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:42:39 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: A little too much of the Dharma
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'A wellknown truth in every private heart
in this long night of life:
A big defecation leaves nothing to be wiped,
A small one, there's no wiping it.
This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)
It seems Jack had a bit too much time on his hands in early '55...
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:08:38 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
thread in ages.... *yawn*
ciao, sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marie Countryman
Sent: Friday, November 21, 1997 4:50 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: is this still beat-l?
first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to
any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for
consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.
and i have a bit of an empty head right now,
but (armorplated glass house)
i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
or philosophy 101
does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
winner gets sound of one hand clapping.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:16:47 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: beats and atheism
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I don't think it's possible to say that the Beats really promoted
atheism or caused atheism in anyone. Rather, they took what they liked
of other religions and mixed them all together. Beat Literature was
religion to a lot of people, part Buddhism, part jazz, part LSD. The
Beats both celebrated and closely examined life. Ginsberg, Kerouac,
Burroughs and all the others each had their own personal problems, but
when they wrote, they were unified. That is a very beautiful thing
that cannot be regarded as anything less than spiritual.
Maggie G.
__________________________________________________________________
Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:03:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to
simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
particular religion.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:06:56 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Rbt. Johnson etching
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971118091419.24600A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
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Derek,
Check sent to pay for print was returned because of Postal strike in
Canado. E-mail me when the strike is over.
j grant
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:12:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>
Subject: Big Sur
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At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
>thread in ages.... *yawn*
I reread Big Sur while on my California pilgrimage in September. I also
drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
around for a while. I stood on the rocks and read "Sea" - listening to
the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
No human words bespeak
the token sorrow older
than old this wave....
Excerpt from "Sea"
JK - Big Sur
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:34:32 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new
topic should initiate it.
s.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:37:52 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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That's REAL nice, but I think you need to use your dictionary to
undersand the actual MEANING of belief and faith.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:53:49 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
In-Reply-To: <msg1267209.thr-2a817531.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
> to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to
> simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
> particular religion.
"Agnostic" means that you believe it's not possible to *know* whether or
not God exists--and since it is not possible to know this, you must keep
open the *possibility* that He does, as well as the *possibility* that He
does not.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:06:06 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur/vanity of duluoz
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i'll be following you shortly, judith, will be on the west coast next month.
(taking big sur out of bookcase as i type. additionally , i'd be interested in
reading/discussing vanity of duluoz: first time reading many years ago, too
young, i believe myself to have been to read through the rawness to the core.
i've attended beat seminars in which most hotly debated work has been the
duluoz, would be very interestd in having a reading and discussio of this
work.
thanks for giving my brain a jolt of energetic thought.
mc
Judith Campbell wrote:
> At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
> >yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
> >thread in ages.... *yawn*
>
> I reread Big Sur while on my California pilgrimage in September. I also
> drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
> around for a while. I stood on the rocks and read "Sea" - listening to
> the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
> struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>
> ....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
> No human words bespeak
> the token sorrow older
> than old this wave....
>
> Excerpt from "Sea"
> JK - Big Sur
>
> Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:24:21 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
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Judith Campbell wrote:
>
> At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
> >yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
> >thread in ages.... *yawn*
>
> I reread Big Sur while on my California pilgrimage in September. I also
> drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
> around for a while. I stood on the rocks and read "Sea" - listening to
> the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
> struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>
> ....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
> No human words bespeak
> the token sorrow older
> than old this wave....
>
> Excerpt from "Sea"
> JK - Big Sur
>
> Judith
I'm up for something different. Big Sur was on my Xmas want list but i
may buy it in Denver at Tattered Cover and send Santa a revised list.
(I haven't been a particularly good boy anyway).
I found the idea of a novel length suicide note a very intriguing way of
looking at Big Sur -- at least figuratively if not literally. This
impression seems to go a step further than what i've heard from others
concerning the novel -- and perhaps it is a step worth looking at
closely in reading Big Sur.
to kill some time this afternoon i did a bit of searching about Big
Sur. Here is something of what I found......
Just for some background, I did a metacrawler search
<http://www.metacrawler.com/index.html> of Kerouac "Big Sur" and found
some information which some may find useful. I'm fairly certain that
others will have many more sites to augment this list.
As one might expect, Levi Asher has a nice commentary on the novel "Big
Sur" at: <http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Books/BigSurBook.html> as well
as a nice page on Beat Places discussing Big Sur at:
<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Places/BigSurPlace.html>
Also, in the Kerouac section of the John Cassady interview, JC talks
briefly about Kerouac at LF's cabin.
<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/JCI/JCI-Two.html>
In addition, various pages pop up with more than a passing reference as
in the following: <http://www.kerouac.com/kerouac/bigsur.html> --
Amazon.com includes links to write reviews of the book to be
incorporated into their site
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0140168125/gloriagbrameA/0070-7114361-
694721>
like i said, this is nowhere near a compleat list. just some tidbits i
found trying to weed out the most passing references in general JK pages
on my search.
i imagine others will have access to reviews and other places to dig.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:31:16 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady ad.......formerly
re:kerouac ads
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>Hey guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we
>>could somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see? I think
>>the theme music, led zep, would be perfect!
>
> LED ZEPPELIN!! alright, a fellow fan... interestingly enough,
>Robert Plant has a pretty wanderlust beat attitude...
I gotta say you folks got taste. Spent last night jammin' on Led Zep tunes
with new buddies. Our singer had his eye-lights put out in Vietnam, is a
counselor and writes books about how to have healthy relationships, and he
sounds like Robert Plant. And Now Zeppelin on the list. Too much damn fun!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:42:22 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: opening chapter of duluoz
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All right, wifey, maybe i'm a big pain in the you-know-what,but after
I've given you a recitation of the troubles I had to go through to make
good in America between 1935 and more or less now, 1967, and although I
also know everybody in the world's had his own troubles, you'll
understand that my particular form of anguish came from being too
sensitive to all the lunkheads I had to deal with just so I could get to
be a high school football star, a college student pouring coffee and
washing dishes and scrimmaging till dark and reading Homer's _Illiad_ in
three days all at the same time and God help me, a WRITER whose very
'success,' far from being the a happy triumph as in old, was the sign of
doom Himself. (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use
regular punctuation for the new illiterate generation).
Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says, but in the past thirty years
to such an extent that I don't recognize them as people any more or
recognize myself as a real member of something called the human race. I
can remember in 1935 when fulgrown men, hands deep in jacket pockets,
used to go whistling down the street unnoticed by anybody and noticing
no one themselves. And walking fast, too, to work or store or
girlfriend. Nowadays, tell me, what is this slouching stroll people
have? Is it because they're used to walking across parking lots only?
Has the automobile filled them with such vanity that they walk like a
bunch of lounging hoodlums to no destination in particular?
_______
a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat
generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of
freedom.
also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did
not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature
in the sentence
"And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."
_____
my hats in the ring, gents and women, shall we venture further into this
territory?
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:46:52 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: netiquette
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i would like furthermore to comment on the vast number of one sentence
zingers and arguments that refer to unknown posts, other then those
partaking in the argument, fill and clutter mail box, and because there
is a limit of number of posts per day (is that still right, bill?)
clutter mailboxes. really, please take it off list.
thankyou
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:55:01 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: big sur/research
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dave: wonderful list of resources. i'm going to be out of computer range
for a day or two, but will be hightailing it into the web as soon as i'm
back (while gone, i hope to finish reading duluoz and have that as an
overview. i had always thought of duluoz as the novel as a suicide note
of jack's spirit, it looks to be an interesting project.
thanks.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:27:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: New Kerouac Bio
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The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page has been updated again today! Always more
news on Jack...
For those who haven't yet gotten Vol. I, No. 2, they are selling out
quick. E-mail me first for availability. It looks like Vol. II, No. 1 will
be available after the first of the next year. Lots of good stuff once more.
Still some copies of Selected Letters Volume I left, all hardcover firsts
fresh out of the box from Viking, plus a free complimentary copy of The
Kerouac Quarterly!
Also, news on a new bio coming out in June...go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks folks!
Paul of TKQ!!
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:07:09 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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Marie Countryman wrote:
> re: suggesting new topics, sara, i guess you are new here, as i have
> offered up many a topic in the past to get the list moving back on
> topic,
> which is the reading and discussion of the writings of the beats.
> just giving other folk time to reflect over the past month and choose
>
> something to read. judith has offered up a novel and so have i. read
> either of them? interested in reading them for what is in the text and
>
> discussing them? and i'm sure there are many list-servs which have
> what
> you are looking for philosophy-wise, or do what many members of this
> list
> do when topic strays into special interest off topics: cc: one
> another
> and discuss. this has been done often, most recently the folks who
> read
> Ulysseus did so off list, making both them and others happy. i for one
>
> would like you to stay here and read with us.
> mc
>
> Sara Straw wrote:
>
> > Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
> > You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a
> new
> > topic should initiate it.
> > s.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:20:17 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
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At 03:12 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
>>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
>>thread in ages.... *yawn*
>
>
>I reread Big Sur while on my California pilgrimage in September. I also
>drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
>around for a while. I stood on the rocks and read "Sea" - listening to
>the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
>heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
>alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
>struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>
>
>....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
>No human words bespeak
>the token sorrow older
>than old this wave....
>
> Excerpt from "Sea"
> JK - Big Sur
>
>
>Judith
>
>
I haven't read Big Sur in a long time.
Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the
Deep Sea Say? with the chorus
What did the deep sea say?
What did the deep sea say?
It moaned and it groaned
and it splashed and it foamed
and it rolled on its' weary way
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:16:28 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
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Gary Grismore cited the following:
> Public executions have been forms of mass entertainment for hundreds of
> years:
> *The last public guillotining (sp?) in France occurred on
> June 17, 1939, witnessed by a noisy, determined mob at street-level, as
> well as a group of higher-class clientele who had rented every possible
> window/balcony/vantage point at premium prices. The crowd cheered at
4:50
> am when the head dropped and graphic photos soon graced the front cover
> of almost every French newspaper.
> *The last public execution in the USA reportedly occurred in Owensboro,
KY
> in 1936. This was witnessed by a crowd of 20,000, many of whom had
> attended all-night 'hanging parties' to prime themselves for the 5:12 am
> hanging. A cheer was raised at the falling of the bolt, and soon the
> still-warm body was mobbed by a throng of souvenir-hunters ripping and
> tearing at clothing, flesh, and hair. Two doctors were finally able to
> make an examination upon the body - their report of heartbeats eliciting
a
> groan throughout the crowd, until a pronouncal of death was finally
> declared at 5:45.
In my home state (Wisconsin) there has only been one official execution,
over 100 years ago. The reaction of the mob was so appalling (similar to
that described above) that capital punishment was legally abolished here,
and so far remains so. Although there are those who would like to roll
back civilization once again...
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:35:16 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
Comments: To: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <msg1259953.thr-63eeecba.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
> >How can an atheist be spiritual? I understand how spirit and the
> >supreme
> >being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual
> >do.
> >Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line
> >with
> >atheism.
>
> because all atheism states is the absence of a belief in a
> godhead, period. now, atheism is as much a trap as any other ism but i
> won't get into that.
>
As Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:59:48 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Ginsberg memorial
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I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg
memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the
general public? If so, will it be a free event?
I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed
themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a
remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever
put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,
alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've
worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've
learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote
'Howl' back in the 60's."
He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will
continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my
life for all of my days.
Maggie G.
Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"
__________________________________________________________________
Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:17:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap ad.
In-Reply-To: <3475B372.1E47@concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched?
It has been _very_ retouched. Joyce Johnson is supposed to be standing
right behind him leaning against the wall. I don't think the leg of the R
was visible in the original but I don't have it in front of me to check.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:27:16 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap ad.
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 06:17 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched?
>
>It has been _very_ retouched. Joyce Johnson is supposed to be standing
>right behind him leaning against the wall. I don't think the leg of the R
>was visible in the original but I don't have it in front of me to check.
>
>------------------
>Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
>kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
>
>
I seem to also remember having seen it in color.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:12:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
In a message dated 97-11-21 16:48:19 EST, judith wrote:
<< Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>>
I couldn't agree with you more, Judith. I read Big Sur again last summer and
felt the same way, only I never got around to putting it in these words,
which are perfect, disturbing and true.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:35:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: A little too much of the Dharma
In a message dated 97-11-21 14:55:17 EST, Adrien wrote:
<< This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)
>>
Jack thought a lot about the toilet, you know, not just in 1955 but on and
on. In BIG SUR elements of the ritual of shitting become real issues for him,
and I quote:
"The President of the United States, the big ministers of state, the great
bishops and shmishops and big shots everywhere, down to the lowest factory
worker with all his fierce pride, movie stars, executives and great engineers
and presidents of law firms with silk shirts and neckties and great expensive
traveling cases in which they place these various expensive English imported
hair brushes and shaving gear and pomades and perfumes are all walking around
with dirty azzoles! All you gotta do is simply wash yourself with soap and
water! it hasnt occurred to anybody in America at all! it's one of the
funniest things I've ever heard of! dont you think it's marvelous that we're
being called filthy unwashed beatnikes but we're the only ones walking around
with clean azzoles?" [sic all punctuation/capitalization]
In only slight contrast, perfectly appropriate to a Zen master, Lin-Chi says:
"In Buddhism there is no place for using effort. Just be ordinary and nothing
special. Eat your food, move your bowels, pass water, and when you're tired
go and lie down again. The ignorant will laugh at me, but the wise will
understand.
I always am reminded how deep was Jack's search (no pun) for spirituality
when I read the many, many things he wrote about the care and feeding of his
body while obeying his equally strong compulsion for self-destruction.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:03:38 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg memorial
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 02:59 PM 11/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
> I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg
>memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the
>general public? If so, will it be a free event?
> I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed
>themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a
>remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever
>put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,
>alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've
>worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've
>learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote
>'Howl' back in the 60's."
> He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will
>continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my
>life for all of my days.
> Maggie G.
>Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>That crazy guy wrote and recited that crazy poem Howl back in
the fifties.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:04:30 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg memorial
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Maggie Gerrity wrote:
>
> I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg
> memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the
> general public? If so, will it be a free event?
> I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed
> themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a
> remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever
> put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,
> alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've
> worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've
> learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote
> 'Howl' back in the 60's."
> He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will
> continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my
> life for all of my days.
> Maggie G.
> Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
MAGGIE: The Parks Department says June 3 is the date for the annual
Central Park Conservancy and regrets erroneously notifying me
otherwise. The tribute, planned as a two-day observance (one day in
Central Park and the next day in Newark's new PAC Center) is expected to
attract poets and artists from all over the world. Amiri Baraka and I
have struggled to get the Central Park date because all previous
Ginsberg Memorials were held within 4 walls, and many who wanted to
attend couldn't BECuaaw there wasn't enough room. We call the June
tribute "A Convocation of Contemporaneity's 'Best Minds.'" The event
will be open to all and the date will be June 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12. An
executive committee meeting must be held shortly to decide which date.
---Al Aronowitz, secretary, THE ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE.
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:15:18 -0800
Reply-To: gbarker@thegrid.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Anne <gbarker@THEGRID.NET>
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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Tyson Ouellette wrote:
> to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to
> simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
> particular religion.
I am agnostic, and, at least to me, it means that I believe that there
is something more powerful than myself that affects my life, but it is
beyond my comprehension and it would be a waste of my time to try to
figure its intentions.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:13:46 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: TIME Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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Anne wrote:
>
> Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>
> > to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to
> > simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
> > particular religion.
>
> I am agnostic, and, at least to me, it means that I believe that there
> is something more powerful than myself that affects my life, but it is
> beyond my comprehension and it would be a waste of my time to try to
> figure its intentions.
sounds like maybe you've comprehended it and named it Time.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
"Death needs Time for what it lives to Grow on - for Ah Pook's Sweet
Sake." -- WSB
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:48:06 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
In-Reply-To: <971121191223_617548379@mrin58.mail.aol.com>
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You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>>In a message dated 97-11-21 16:48:19 EST,
judith wrote:
>
><< Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
> struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>
> >>
>I couldn't agree with you more, Judith. I read Big Sur again last summer an=
d
>felt the same way, only I never got around to putting it in these words,
>which are perfect, disturbing and true.
I really do like Big Sur despite its sadness. You can see that this is
Kerouac at his most worn out and also at his most sincere. It is as if some
of the magic of life, and how he had viewed life in say, OTR, had kind of
been torn apart by the alcaholism and the reality of life and failure and
relationships. Now he can look back on what happened to him and see that he
is failing but that he no longer has the energy to repair the "botch of his
days". He is almost done "going". Is it in here that he says that it will
be his last hitchhike, or that he is done hitchhiking? Big Sur is my
favorite Kerouac after OTR.
leo
"All I wanted was to be a mariachi like my ancestors. But the city I
thought would bring me luck...Brought only a curse...I lost my guitar, my
hand, and her...With this injury, I may never play the guitar
again...Without her, I have no love. But with the dog...and the weapons,
I'm prepared...for the future." --The Mariachi in "El Mariachi"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:01:39 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie Countryman wrote:
> _______
> a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat
> generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of
> freedom.
> also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did
> not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature
> in the sentence
> "And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."
I can't get over how bitter Jack is in the first chapter. He's refuting
everything he used to enjoy doing. It's a big, bitter,
been-there-done-that-so-what attitude. It's also sad to see him abandon
his spontaneous prose, of which he was very proud. In 1967 he comes
across as a boozed-up, lazy man. As we go further into the book, we'll
see the familiar Kerouac reverie that made him so great (if the book was
ALL bitterness, I wouldn't be rereading it again). We just have to
endure the grumpy old man's surliness in the first five or so pages.
Also, you can sense a bit of sad longing for his days with Neal...
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:10:25 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
Comments: To: saras@sisna.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sara Straw wrote:
>
> Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
> You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new
> topic should initiate it.
> s.
I'll initiate a new topic...
Why are you here? Do you know much about the beats? Do you want to learn
more about the beats? Do you love Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs? Do
you love Kerouac, but not Ginsberg and Burroughs? Do you love Ginsberg,
but not Kerouac and Burroughs? Do you love Burroughs, but not Kerouac
and Ginsberg? Do you love Kerouac and Ginsberg, but not Burroughs? Do
you love Kerouac and Burroughs, but not Ginsberg? Do you love Ginsberg
and Burroughs, but not Kerouac? Or do you just dig Bob Kaufman?
All we know is beat-l has received another surly member.
emoticonlessly yrs,
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:40:20 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Mama Collins
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Mama Collins
Shell,
Eyes of lost child,
Wanderer on highways,
Going home?
One Christmas,
Recalling my name,
A flash I recognized.
Later, sitting outside
Nursing home,
I refused to see the remnants of
Matriarchal dynasty.
Thoughtless, lost shell,
No person here.
Now, wishing to see beyond the shell,
Regrets are sifted.
Synapsis misfiring.
Not arteries, but sickness.
Had I known
Fear of aging,
of madness,
of slipping slowly away,
of suffering.
Had I but seen beyond the shell.
Perhaps, sifting regrets,
Looking to see beyond.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:47:54 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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Adrien Begrand wrote:
>
> Sara Straw wrote:
> >
> > Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
> > You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new
> > topic should initiate it.
> > s.
>
> I'll initiate a new topic...
> Why are you here? Do you know much about the beats? Do you want to learn
> more about the beats? Do you love Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs? Do
> you love Kerouac, but not Ginsberg and Burroughs? Do you love Ginsberg,
> but not Kerouac and Burroughs? Do you love Burroughs, but not Kerouac
> and Ginsberg? Do you love Kerouac and Ginsberg, but not Burroughs? Do
> you love Kerouac and Burroughs, but not Ginsberg? Do you love Ginsberg
> and Burroughs, but not Kerouac? Or do you just dig Bob Kaufman?
>
> All we know is beat-l has received another surly member.
>
> emoticonlessly yrs,
>
> Adrien
i just hate them all to hell!!!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:04:22 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
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>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>> Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the
>> Deep Sea Say? with the chorus
>>
>> What did the deep sea say?
>> What did the deep sea say?
>> It moaned and it groaned
>> and it splashed and it foamed
>> and it rolled on its' weary way
>
>That's really nice. I'm amazed of how little Woody Guthrie I've actually
>heard, considering what an influence he's been on many of my favorite
>artists. Would you mind telling me where this song is available? Thanks,
>Gary
There are Guthrie tapes and CD's available. Many with Cisco Houston. They
compile them differntly depending on who releases the recording so for this
one you'd need to look for the titles on the back and see if the song is
there (I forget the name of this particular tape. I think it is called
what did the deep sea say so it's easy to tell if it is there. One thing I
can say for sure is it is not one of the songs on the Library of Congress
set.
You can't go wrong buying a Woody Guthrie recording. Just make sure it is
Woody Guthrie. Sometimes they package tributes that will fool you. You
think you're buying a Guthrie recording and your buying other people
singing the songs.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:23:42 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: woody guthrie (was Re: Big Sur
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> >> Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the
> >> Deep Sea Say? with the chorus
> >>
> >> What did the deep sea say?
> >> What did the deep sea say?
> >> It moaned and it groaned
> >> and it splashed and it foamed
> >> and it rolled on its' weary way
> >
> >That's really nice. I'm amazed of how little Woody Guthrie I've actually
> >heard, considering what an influence he's been on many of my favorite
> >artists. Would you mind telling me where this song is available? Thanks,
> >Gary
>
> There are Guthrie tapes and CD's available. Many with Cisco Houston. They
> compile them differntly depending on who releases the recording so for this
> one you'd need to look for the titles on the back and see if the song is
> there (I forget the name of this particular tape. I think it is called
> what did the deep sea say so it's easy to tell if it is there. One thing I
> can say for sure is it is not one of the songs on the Library of Congress
> set.
>
> You can't go wrong buying a Woody Guthrie recording. Just make sure it is
> Woody Guthrie. Sometimes they package tributes that will fool you. You
> think you're buying a Guthrie recording and your buying other people
> singing the songs.
some of the tributes are really pretty good. they definitely show some
of the range of influence WG had on a wide variety of music - not just
on dylan.
his songbook "Hard hitting songs" is pretty good and books "Seeds of
Man" and "Born to Win" are Excellent.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. oh yeah that other book "Bound for Glory" ain't bad either.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 07:32:41 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
i agree with you, Judith. it's an amazing piece of confessional writing that
one wonders if the confessor really understood just how much he was showing
us. what a raw bearing of human soul in torment, loss, conflict and longing.
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Judith Campbell
Sent: Friday, November 21, 1997 12:12 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Big Sur
At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
>thread in ages.... *yawn*
I reread Big Sur while on my California pilgrimage in September. I also
drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
around for a while. I stood on the rocks and read "Sea" - listening to
the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
No human words bespeak
the token sorrow older
than old this wave....
Excerpt from "Sea"
JK - Big Sur
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:40:49 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: woody guthrie (was Re: Big Sur
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I have to recommend _Ballads of Sacco & Vanzetti_. Truly Amazing!
Adrien
RACE --- wrote:
>
> some of the tributes are really pretty good. they definitely show some
> of the range of influence WG had on a wide variety of music - not just
> on dylan.
>
> his songbook "Hard hitting songs" is pretty good and books "Seeds of
> Man" and "Born to Win" are Excellent.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
> p.s. oh yeah that other book "Bound for Glory" ain't bad either.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:24:43 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: latin people
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cari amici,
i've a flashback of a movie with Dennis Hopper
in a latino american country (Mexico?) dated
circa 1970, where a group of friends have a
similar experience to Sal Paradise and
Dean Moriarty in the 3th part of "On the Road".
somehow or other the exotic countries are
described such as place where people goes
crazy and transgressive. this way is a bit
disappointing. why Mexico, Brazil, Italy, etc.
are match with such strange peculiarity?
i.e. the "german" people (or others of course, but
i've noticed them) when are in Italy they have
drunk and very rude, but when are in his own country
(saying Munich) they are square and respectable person.
un saluto a tutti,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:43:17 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Mama Collins
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hi bentz: your pome just brought to mind all the mixed feelings i
experienced in looking at pictures taken of my father this past summer.
alcoholic and small strokes in succession, i looked at the photos and
saw only a shell, no light of comprehension in the eyes, couldn't write
of it yet. thanks, you give my muse a wider scope than my mind has been
able to allow/
mc
R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Mama Collins
>
> Shell,
> Eyes of lost child,
> Wanderer on highways,
> Going home?
>
> One Christmas,
> Recalling my name,
> A flash I recognized.
> Later, sitting outside
> Nursing home,
> I refused to see the remnants of
> Matriarchal dynasty.
> Thoughtless, lost shell,
> No person here.
>
> Now, wishing to see beyond the shell,
> Regrets are sifted.
> Synapsis misfiring.
> Not arteries, but sickness.
> Had I known
> Fear of aging,
> of madness,
> of slipping slowly away,
> of suffering.
> Had I but seen beyond the shell.
> Perhaps, sifting regrets,
> Looking to see beyond.
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:12:40 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> All right, wifey, maybe i'm a big pain in the you-know-what,but after
> I've given you a recitation of the troubles I had to go through to make
> good in America between 1935 and more or less now, 1967, and although I
> also know everybody in the world's had his own troubles, you'll
> understand that my particular form of anguish came from being too
> sensitive to all the lunkheads I had to deal with just so I could get to
> be a high school football star, a college student pouring coffee and
> washing dishes and scrimmaging till dark and reading Homer's _Illiad_ in
> three days all at the same time and God help me, a WRITER whose very
> 'success,' far from being the a happy triumph as in old, was the sign of
> doom Himself. (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use
> regular punctuation for the new illiterate generation).
> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says, but in the past thirty years
> to such an extent that I don't recognize them as people any more or
> recognize myself as a real member of something called the human race. I
> can remember in 1935 when fulgrown men, hands deep in jacket pockets,
> used to go whistling down the street unnoticed by anybody and noticing
> no one themselves. And walking fast, too, to work or store or
> girlfriend. Nowadays, tell me, what is this slouching stroll people
> have? Is it because they're used to walking across parking lots only?
> Has the automobile filled them with such vanity that they walk like a
> bunch of lounging hoodlums to no destination in particular?
> _______
> a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat
> generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of
> freedom.
> also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did
> not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature
> in the sentence
> "And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."
> _____
> my hats in the ring, gents and women, shall we venture further into this
> territory?
> mc
at the risk of appearing *too* twisted, the second reading of this
didn't seem to me to be harsh at all. it seemed in fact that JK was
near a breakthrough to a recognition of the absurdity of wanting
everyone to walk alike.
this morning i was goofing around and found this site
<http://members.aol.com/KatharenaE/private/Philo/Existentialism/absurd.html>
and it made me think even more about my second reading. In the earlier
Kerouac that i've read there was a beauty in the innocent discovery of
new people who were different. Here he seems to not only have lost that
-- but gotten to where (excuse my dashes i have no clue how to use them
nor parentheses) his recognition of difference is at a pit of not being
able to see the possibility of being part of the human race he once
enjoyed so much. But the wonderful absurdity of the human race is
probably precisely the differences the total alien-ness of my neighbor
across the hall. The current trends in culture trying to teach suburban
mall conformity (which i seem to recall WSB's late journals in the New
Yorker decrying) and the reactionary conformity of anti-conformity in
various groups and sub-groups found outside of the malls seem to me to
be really very close to the anger suggested in these openings. And yet
it is just a short skip from this anger to reveling in the excitement
that things aren't the same. I think Vanity in the title will be
telling - the absurdity of vanity (not the suppression of it -- but just
realizing that vanity is rarely rationally defensible yet nonetheless
felt deeply) goes along way in trying to figure out this whole Legend
and its lessons for me (at least).
At any rate that is a saturday morning twisted salina monologue ---- i
imagine that my third reading of the opening would send me somewhere
completely different <las>
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my
family and relatives and whatnot. But i'm interested, in the event that
i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"
order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them? Any
suggestions?
also thanks to antoine for some Xmas music tips -- any other backchannel
Xmas music ideas will be thoroughly appreciated.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:23:19 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Marie Countryman wrote:
> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
> mc
anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
here? i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to
check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough
to the other side of writer's block>
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:25:32 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: atheism-agnostic
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> Subject:
> Atheism -- Agnostic
> Date:
> Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:45:27 -0500
> From:
> Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>
>
>
> I once, paradoxically, put my faith in atheism. This was intertwined with a
> view that spirituality was religion, that religion's only honorable purpose
> was to explain the unexplainable, and that the majority of answers that
> religion gave - If God created man, who created God? - simply removed the
> question one step.
>
> As the years past, my distrust of organized religion did not diminish, but a
> feeling of being attached to something bigger grew. My first definable
> spiritual experience did not occur in a church or mosque or temple but
> cross-country skiing, in Northern Quebec, through the ancient hills of the
> Laurentians. I was alone in the blue sky-ed, thirty below wilderness, high
> on exertion. The crisp sun peering through the leafless maples, dancing on
> the fresh trackless snow, the world silent save for the sounds of the trees
> creaking and my own panting. And then, it shifted. I was no longer a lone
> skier in nature but a small part of nature. I felt connected, not only to
> the natural beauty surrounding me, but to my known & unknown ancestors, my
> descendants to come, to everything and everyone. I was a part of this big
> rolling ball of life and it felt good. There was no past, no future, there
> was only the moment, the greater we, that always was and would continue to
> be. In bliss I floated, not seeing angels or Gods, but simply being. I
> slid out of this heightened awareness cold, miles from the cabin, serene and
> forever changed.
Wasn't there one time when Kerouac (to put this nicely) tried copulating
with Nature/Earth in his own backyard? Wondering if there was any truth
to this, and was it done more as a sign of frustration or a real love of
nature or a spiritual thing?
anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:43:14 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Vanity of dulouz
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I've looked and looked and every bookstore around here does not seem to
carry vanity of dulouz. that was the one i was wanting to read next,
after 'some of the dharma.' is 'dulouz' out of print? or is it
avaiable (Please all you bookstore employees on the list, help me out
here...)
and does anyone know what of jack's unpublished works that the sampas
estate plans on releasing next??????
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:55:38 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Marie Countryman wrote:
>> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>> mc
>
>anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>here?
Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:59:46 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vanity of dulouz
Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>I've looked and looked and every bookstore around here does not seem to
>carry vanity of dulouz. that was the one i was wanting to read next,
>after 'some of the dharma.' is 'dulouz' out of print? or is it
>avaiable (Please all you bookstore employees on the list, help me out
>here...)
It is in print. Costs 11.95. Try another bookstore or Tower Records.
There is www.amazon.com or www.barnes&noble.com that are web booksellers.
I have never bought from them, but they will send them to you in a matter
of days at a discount price.
If anyone has used these on-line behemoths I'd be curious to hear about it.
Also a great humanitarian here provided www.bibliofind.com which seems to
be used books but it has a massive great inventory (inventory should
actually be in quotes).
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:36:47 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
In-Reply-To: <199711211752.MAA06052@pike.sover.net>
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well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
question:
does beat studies fall into the same issues of
canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by
highlighting only a certain few writers? (and maybe
the list falls prey to this, as well?)
kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
and if this is the case, does anyone know why?
jim donahue
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
> first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to
> any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for
> consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.
> and i have a bit of an empty head right now,
> but (armorplated glass house)
> i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
> or philosophy 101
> does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
> winner gets sound of one hand clapping.
> mc
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:44:25 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
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James Donahue wrote:
>
> well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
> question:
> does beat studies fall into the same issues of
> canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by
> highlighting only a certain few writers? (and maybe
> the list falls prey to this, as well?)
> kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
> and if this is the case, does anyone know why?
> jim donahue
probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a
nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility. Go Rinaldo Go.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:47:48 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> >Marie Countryman wrote:
> >> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
> >> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
> >> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
> >> mc
> >
> >anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
> >here?
>
> Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.
well obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg
Galaxy - i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not
certain). I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading lists for Jack that
we'd been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the
basic themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really
frustrate a natural born writer.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:51:18 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
In-Reply-To: <347719F9.2290@midusa.net>
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On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> James Donahue wrote:
> >
> > well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
> > question:
> > does beat studies fall into the same issues of
> > canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by
> > highlighting only a certain few writers? (and maybe
> > the list falls prey to this, as well?)
> > kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
> > and if this is the case, does anyone know why?
> > jim donahue
>
> probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a
> nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility. Go Rinaldo Go.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
do have the html of this website?
id rather go direct than have to swin through all the
stuff that would come up on a keyword search.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:54:04 -0600
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From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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David Rhaesa wrote:
> p.s. I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my
> family and relatives and whatnot. But i'm interested, in the event that
> i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"
> order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them? Any
> suggestions?
I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them
up:
Visions of Gerard
Dr. Sax
Maggie Cassidy
Vanity of Duluoz
The Town and the City
On The Road
Visions of Cody
Lonesome Traveler
Book of Blues
The Subterraneans
The Book of Dreams
The Dharma Bums
The Scripture of the Golden Eternity
Old Angel Midnight
Some of the Dharma
Desolation Angels
Mexico City Blues
Tristessa
Big Sur
Trip Trap
Satori in Paris
Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here! This
thread is going to be interesting....
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:58:56 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
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James Donahue wrote:
>
> do have the html of this website?
> id rather go direct than have to swin through all the
> stuff that would come up on a keyword search.
the shit-kicking list is at:
<http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/thebeats.htm>
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:08:09 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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> As Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.
> Cordially,
> Mike Skau
I give up, what does THAT mean?
It sounds real cute, but doesn't compute.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:14:36 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>>
>> >Marie Countryman wrote:
>> >> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>> >> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>> >> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>> >> mc
>> >
>> >anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>> >here?
>>
>> Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.
>
>well obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg
>Galaxy - i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not
>certain). I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading lists for Jack that
>we'd been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the
>basic themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really
>frustrate a natural born writer.
>
You think a good boy like Jack wasn't reading Catholic World?
I am sure he was familiar with McCluhan fro awhile from mcCluhans writings
about Finnegans wake.
(Which McCluhan book is specifically referred to in the opening allusion in
Vanity of Duluoz (if any partiular one) --I don't know).
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:38:06 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Splicing in AG into the Beat-Legend (was Re: Ordering of the
Duluoz Legend
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Jym Mooney wrote:
>
> I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them
> up:
OK -- thats An order so folks may want to quibble about it in the
previous thread. Now i'm wondering from those out there (and i know
some of you are out there!) how you would splice in the various books by
Allen Ginsberg. (yes, WSB, Corso, Snyder, etc. etc. are down the road
in this line of thinking. no particular reason i picked AG second.
just did).....thanks for the help. i like this list that although is
still in fetus stage - may be going somewhere someday somehow.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
>
> Visions of Gerard
> Dr. Sax
> Maggie Cassidy
> Vanity of Duluoz
> The Town and the City
> On The Road
> Visions of Cody
> Lonesome Traveler
> Book of Blues
> The Subterraneans
> The Book of Dreams
> The Dharma Bums
> The Scripture of the Golden Eternity
> Old Angel Midnight
> Some of the Dharma
> Desolation Angels
> Mexico City Blues
> Tristessa
> Big Sur
> Trip Trap
> Satori in Paris
>
> Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here! This
> thread is going to be interesting....
>
> Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 03:01:53 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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> RACE wrote:
> this morning i was goofing around and found this site
>
>http://members.aol.com/KatharenaE/private/Philo/Existentialism/absurd.ht
>ml
> and it made me think even more about my second reading. In the earlier
> Kerouac that i've read there was a beauty in the innocent discovery of
> new people who were different. Here he seems to not only have lost
> that
> -- but gotten to where (excuse my dashes i have no clue how to use them
> nor parentheses) his recognition of difference is at a pit of not being
> able to see the possibility of being part of the human race he once
> enjoyed so much. But the wonderful absurdity of the human race is
> probably precisely the differences the total alien-ness of my neighbor
> across the hall. The current trends in culture trying to teach
> suburban
> mall conformity (which i seem to recall WSB's late journals in the New
> Yorker decrying) and the reactionary conformity of anti-conformity in
> various groups and sub-groups found outside of the malls seem to me to
> be really very close to the anger suggested in these openings. And yet
> it is just a short skip from this anger to reveling in the excitement
> that things aren't the same. I think Vanity in the title will be
> telling - the absurdity of vanity (not the suppression of it -- but
> just
> realizing that vanity is rarely rationally defensible yet nonetheless
> felt deeply) goes along way in trying to figure out this whole Legend
> and its lessons for me (at least).
I have some trouble seeing your more positive reading of the passage. I
see it once again as a very tired Kerouac immersed in his own sorrow.
And if you want to work the word "vanity' into it, I would see it more as
the kind of vanity one would find in the Biblical Ecclesiastes, where, if
I remember it correct, it is said "All is vanity." The end of all of
man's attempts to understand living is frustration. Man is born to toil,
suffer and to die. Perhaps in Kerouac's reasoning: what does life really
amount to? His struggle to get to college as a football player, to leave
football and become a writer; cross the country numerous times, write
about it, but still see himself as misunderstood. What is there left to
do but drink himself to death? All his joy is so transitory in
relation to his despair. The same struggle he writes of in Big Sur (pg.
183) "O hell, I'm sick of life--If I had any guts I'd drown myself in
that tiresome water..." And that frustration about the vanity (futility)
of life combined with (pg. 191) "I feel a great ghastly hatred of myself
and everything."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:00:41 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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wrote _the medium is the message_ has great short cameo role in annie hall.
RACE --- wrote:
> Marie Countryman wrote:
> > Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
> > people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
> > sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
> > mc
>
> anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
> here? i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to
> check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough
> to the other side of writer's block>
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:01:11 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: opening and closing books duluoz
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hey diane: my computer ate yr homework, or else i'd piggy back this onto
your post:(sorry dave i can't see any happy jack here - also in your
reading list, i'd put duluoz last of the list)
going to the text itself, in opening and closing books re penquin
edition:
p 23
"you kill yourself to get to the grave. especially you kill yourself to
get to the grave before you even die, and the name of that grave is
'success', th name of that grave is hullaballo boomboom horseshit.
p29
"for after all what is success? you kill yourself and a few others to
get to the top of your profession, so to speak, so that when you reach
middle age or a little later you can stay home and cultivate your own
garden in bliss: but by that time, because you've invented some kind of
better mousetrap, mobs come rushing across your garden and trampling all
your flowers. what's with that?
pg 262-3
"in fact i began to behink myself in that hospital. i began to
understand that the city intellectuals of the world were divorced from
the folkbody blood of the land and were just rotless fools, to
permissable fools, who really didn't know how to go on living. I began
to get a new vision of my own of a truer darkness which just
overshadowed all this overlaid mental garbage of 'existentialism' 'and
hipsterism' and bourgeois decadence' and whatever names you want to give
it.
in the purity of my hospital bed, weeks on end, i, staring at the dim
ceiling while the poor men snored, saw that life is a brute creation,
beautiful and cruel, that when you see a springtime bud covered with
raindew, how can you believe it's beautiful when you know the moisture
is just there to encourage the bud to flower out just so's it can fall
off sere dead dry in the fall? all the contemporary LSD acid heads (if
1967) see the cruel beauty of the brute creation just by closing their
eyes: i've seen it too since: a maniacal mandala circle all mosaic and
dense with millions of cruel things and beautiful scenes goin on, like
say, swiftly on one side i saw one night a choirmaster of some sort in
'heaven' slowly going Ooowith his mouth in awe at the beauty of what
they were singing but right next to him is a pig being fed to an
alligator by cruel attendants on a pier and people walking by
unconcerned. just an example. Or that horrible mother kali of ancient
india and its wisdom aeons with all her arms bejeweled, legs and belly
too, gyrating insanely to eat back thru the only part of her that's not
jeweled, her yoni or yin, everythings she's given birth to. Mother
nature giving you birth and eating you back.
and i say wars and social catastrophes arise from the cruel nature of
bestial creation, and not from 'society' which after all has good
intentions or it wouldn't be called 'society' wouold it?
it is, face it , a mean heartless creation emanated by a God of wrath,
jehovah, yaweth, no-name, who will pat you kindly on the head and say
'now your'e being good' when you pray, but when your're begging for
mercy anyway say like a soldier hung by one leg from a tree trunk in
today's Vietnam, when yaweh's really got you out in the back of the barn
even in ordinary natureof fatal illness like my pa's then, he wont (sic)
listen, he will whack away at your lil behind with the long stick of
what they call 'original sin' in the theological christian dogmatic
sects but what i call 'the original sacrifice.'
that's not even worse, for god's sake , than watching your own human
father pop die in real life when you really realize 'father, father, why
has thou forsaken me?' for real, the man who gae you hopeful birth is
copping out right before your eyes and leaves you flat with the whole
problem and burden (your self) of his own foolishness in ever believing
that 'life' was worth anything what it smells like down in the bellevue
morgue when i had to identify franz'a body. your human father sits there
in death before you almost satisfied. that's what's so sad and horrible
about the 'god is dead' movement in contemporary religion, it's the most
tearful and forlorn phiosophical idea of all time."
_____
the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,
who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man he
had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before
becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning
of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.
having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very
successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous
breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and
humanity and spirituality.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:05:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Kerouac Gap Ad
To all you Madison Avenue Advertizers:
I think if you look closely you will see that the the Gap ad is not the same
photo as on Minor Characters by Joyce Johnson. Same roll of film, and it is
possible that Joyce was airbrushed out in the the gap photo, but different
photos.
And I would think that the person who took the photo has the rights to
republish the photo. The photographer was Jerome Yulsman.
I don't know if you have to get permission from the estate to publish a
public figure, even though in this case I think that they (Gap corp) did.
By the way, you can still see the Bar sign if you go to a bar in the village
called Kettle of Fish, not far from NYU. The bar moved from its original
site, and the "bar" sign, which was in the alley, is now inside the bar.
so it goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:05:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: god vs beat vs truth
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I think the reason I became an atheist is that I don't believe that there=
is
an afterlife, or that there is a 'god' that has any control over my life =
(or
any body else's life). I belief that my life is a (fortunate) biological
accident. (fortunate for me anyway)
And it is because of that belief, that I think that this Life is so much =
more
sacred because this is the one and only.=20
It also makes me more aware of the misery that is around me in the world =
(I
am happy to report that my personal life is relatively happy). I am sorry
that these people have to go through their one and only life in such desp=
air
or unhappiness (not necessarily due to their own fault).
As far as spirituality, I believe that each person has a soul, and that s=
ome
are better developed (due to personal choice, chance, dumb luck, circumst=
ance
of events, environment, family, friends, mistakes, successes, planning,
surprises, and the unexplained) and that you always have to strive. So ha=
ving
spirituality has no relationship to a belief in an afterlife.
You treat a dog like a dog, it becomes a dog. You treat a dog like a pers=
on,
it becomes a person. You treat a person like a dog, it becomes a dog. You
treat a person like a person, it becomes a person.
Life is one long recipe. You have to start with some basic ingredients, t=
hen
slowly add the right ingredients at the right time. Unfortunately, one o=
f
the problems with what is called life is not adding the right ingredient =
at
the right time, or adding the wrong ingredient, or adding too little to t=
oo
much of the right ingredient. And in most cases it takes a lifetime to ge=
t it
right. Some people stop caring about the recipe, think that they don't h=
ave
to worry about it anymore, and all sorts of other shortcomings. Life can =
be
more delicate than a souffl=E9.
Allen Ginsberg told me that he doesn't believe in god or an afterlife,
because he cannot believe in anything he hasn't experienced. He also said
that the term 'beat generation' was just a media creation.
that is the end of my philosophy,
so it goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:21:05 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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>David Rhaesa wrote:
>
>> p.s. I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my
>> family and relatives and whatnot. But i'm interested, in the event that
>> i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"
>> order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them? Any
>> suggestions?
>
>I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them
>up:
>
>Visions of Gerard
>Dr. Sax
>Maggie Cassidy
>Vanity of Duluoz
>The Town and the City
>On The Road
>Visions of Cody
>Lonesome Traveler
>Book of Blues
>The Subterraneans
>The Book of Dreams
>The Dharma Bums
>The Scripture of the Golden Eternity
>Old Angel Midnight
>Some of the Dharma
>Desolation Angels
>Mexico City Blues
>Tristessa
>Big Sur
>Trip Trap
>Satori in Paris
>
>Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here! This
>thread is going to be interesting....
>
>Jym
PIC, too.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:25:19 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
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James Donahue wrote:
>
> On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
> > James Donahue wrote:
> > >
> > > well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
> > > question:
> > > does beat studies fall into the same issues of
> > > canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by
> > > highlighting only a certain few writers? (and maybe
> > > the list falls prey to this, as well?)
> > > kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
> > > and if this is the case, does anyone know why?
> > > jim donahue
> >
> > probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a
> > nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility. Go Rinaldo Go.
> >
> > david rhaesa
> > salina, Kansas
> >
> do have the html of this website?
> id rather go direct than have to swin through all the
> stuff that would come up on a keyword search.
i agree, i love the inclusiveness of the rinaldo's approach.
http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:59:19 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Forthcoming stuff...
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At 11:19 AM 11/22/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:
>>
>> >and does anyone know what of jack's unpublished works that the sampas
>> >estate plans on releasing next??????
>> >
>> >cathy
>>
>>
>> >
>> The second volume of Selected Letters has been delayed until January 1999.
>> After that, a third volume of letters and the journals (in 3 volumes) will
>> be released and it is reasonable to think that other works will follow, such
>> as Kerouac's juvenalia works and also other archival material; notebooks,
>> more poems, etc. .... The authorized bio is in the works for a release in a
>> year that will start with a 2...meanwhile, Ellis Amburn has a bio coming out
>> June 1998. Also, Geffen Records has a release for early next year featuring
>> new recordings of Kerouac reading and a song written by him and performed by
>> Tom Waits ("Home I'll Never Be" I believe it is called)and Primus.
>> The Kerouac Quarterly
>>
>> http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>>
>> (Almost updated daily for your edification and delight....P.
>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
>> Henry David Thoreau
>>
>>
>
>
>
>thanks for the info, paul. i appreciate it
>
>
>cathy
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:40:56 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: god vs beat vs truth
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Attila Gyenis wrote:
> Life is one long recipe. You have to start with some basic ingredients, then
> slowly add the right ingredients at the right time. Unfortunately, one of
> the problems with what is called life is not adding the right ingredient at
> the right time, or adding the wrong ingredient, or adding too little to too
> much of the right ingredient. And in most cases it takes a lifetime to get it
> right. Some people stop caring about the recipe, think that they don't have
> to worry about it anymore, and all sorts of other shortcomings. Life can be
> more delicate than a souffli.
>
>
> that is the end of my philosophy,
> so it goes, Attila
Gee, Attila, I LIKE that, and I like your name, Attila Gyenis, too.
I think you've summed it up really well, and there's nothing I can add
that will enhance it... so, bon apetite!
s
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:32:30 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Still Life with Women by La Loca
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122205919.006a79f4@pop.pipeline.com>
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La Loca
Still Life with Women
"The Square Dance" above the four-poster
was your first. The four sisters,
dos a dos, giddy as the fiddler's lick,
before their lives happened.
You've got them childless
and kidding, eyes and hair
the family chestnut.
What's unseen is you, the oldest,
taller than a man, buck-toothed,
double left-footed, hulking
by the punch, painting.
Behind you is mother,
small and not all there,
one after another cracking
pistachios, retinas like departed
souls: a typical widow.
She beat her girls with switches
pulled from lenient firs.
Her fat, child-bearing hands
shell the favors to the last
and then fold, stub to stub,
across a stomach cultivated
from marchpane and babies.
She feels brown-haired again.
Under a floor-length hoop
her foot, once swept from ballrooms
by a towering groom, sleeps.
A le main left and your sisters skip
to Cincinnati with their callers.
"Good Night Ladies," and mother stands
you at her back. Help me, is the phrase.
Starting at the small, you undo
the places she can't reach.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:54:54 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Diane Carter wrote:
>
>
> I have some trouble seeing your more positive reading of the passage. I
> see it once again as a very tired Kerouac immersed in his own sorrow.
> DC
Diane,
your whole post is wonderful (as usual) and i'll try to get to the rest
of it on a day when i haven't used up so many of my ten posts. but
since you and marie didn't see where i was really coming from on this
reading, i thought i'd take a moment to try and clarify.
i'm not sure that it is a positive reading per se, as much as an absurd
reading with perhaps a positive lesson. i'll try to be a bit clearer.
the first positive i feel is the positiveness of identification. i
definitely felt the "been there, done that and survived it" feeling
while reading those words. certainly, the style in which JK describes
it is beyond me, but i definitely got the sense of -- yeah i've seen
life that dark before. fairly similar to the feeling i get when
listening to something like Hank Williams' "I'm So Lonesome I Could
Cry", it is absurd to find happiness in perhaps the saddest song ever
written, but it is there for me in knowing that some one has felt depths
of loneliness that when i feel them it seems i am the only one who could
ever have been there and done that. it is the idenitification with
another's suffering as both showing that your suffering is real, but
also that your suffering might not be the worst thing anyone has ever
felt emotionally. in the passage from JK, it is not just a loneliness,
but an anger at the alien-ness of feeling like one doesn't belong to the
human race. But in reading the words and identifying with them and the
feelings behind them, I know that there are people in the human race who
have been where i've been and know the paths to some extent that i'm on.
another level is the absurdity that this is the worst it could be. i
think what brought the most laughter to me was when the viciousness of
the emotions became associated with automobiles. not only is the irony
of it amazing as marie pointed out, but the absurdity of blaming it all
on a car just had me in stitches. and in a similar way as above, i find
myself flashing back on situations in which emotional depths in my life
become connected to particular symbols and those things or people can
hardly deserve to be the scapegoat of the emotions. I recall not so
long ago a 35 cents pair of cutoffs became the focus of an anger that
had lasted decades. Absurd. Just as in the automobile blaming.
And the fact that JK is able to write his way out of the anger is
probably the most beautifully positive experience of it. Not only does
the author let you know these feelings are/were experienced, but also in
the fact that you are reading the words the author has found a creative
means to survive and move past the moments of those emotions. Certainly
it may be a fleeting moment and emotions come back and haunt, but the
possibility of escaping and finding happiness of some sort in our
natural gifts provides some positive feelings (and perhaps this reading
is aided by the hints provided that the emotion does not last through
the entire book in another post on this thread).
And so it is a twisting. Probably not a conventional reading at all --
definitely absurd -- but sometimes the absurd reading provides some
breakthroughs that the conventional does not.
of course, this is still twisted, but probably a different twistedness
than the reading -- of course i promised that my third reading would be
completely different from the second.
so - i hope that others comment on the rest of your post and if not i'll
try to give it more attention in the coming days.
and thanks marie for providing more to look at.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:33:14 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: opening and closing books duluoz
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>_____
>the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,
>who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man he
>had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before
>becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning
>of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.
>having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very
>successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous
>breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and
>humanity and spirituality.
>mc
> I just want to ask, how well did you know Stella Kerouac? Paul. . .
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:35:34 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening and closing books duluoz
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ya got me there, paul! the admonition i have given others, hoisted by my own
petard, so to speak, going out of text to sweeping generalization.
but i stand by the rest of my points and quotes from the text, itself, and
my own love/hate relationship to this book, (as opposed to author - yet
snuck in the back door with cheap shot toward stella) and thankyou david
o'kansas for once again bringing your own wonderful sense of the absurd to
the novel as well. i'll take under advisement
and yes, dave: i caught the irony too. but also the darkness and no light at
the end of the tunnel of the book.
Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:
> >_____
> >the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,
> >who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man he
> >had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before
> >becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning
> >of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.
> >having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very
> >successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous
> >breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and
> >humanity and spirituality.
> >mc
> > I just want to ask, how well did you know Stella Kerouac? Paul. . .
> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:55:16 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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Preston Whaley mentioned that I left "Pic" out of the Duluoz Legend. This
was not an accident. I frankly don't see how it fits in, as there is no
appearance by Jack himself, in character or not. I seem to recall that at
one point Jack intended the main character to meet up with Sal and Dean,
but that Memere encouraged him to edit that part out before publication.
Of course, it has been years since I read "Pic," so maybe my memory is
faulty on this. Anyone?
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:58:08 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Preston Whaley mentioned that I left "Pic" out of the Duluoz Legend. This
>was not an accident. I frankly don't see how it fits in, as there is no
>appearance by Jack himself, in character or not. I seem to recall that at
>one point Jack intended the main character to meet up with Sal and Dean,
>but that Memere encouraged him to edit that part out before publication.
>Of course, it has been years since I read "Pic," so maybe my memory is
>faulty on this. Anyone?
>
>Jym
yes, I think neither Pic nor Town and City should be in the Duluoz Legend.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:02:31 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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I think that Lonesome Traveller has to be divuded up into its' consituent
stories. Some take place earlier and some later. For example the story
about the gun and how Duluoz carefully chose not to bring it to his friend
is earlier (around On the Road time) than October in the Railroad Earth
which would be early fifities after Visions of Cody but pre-Subterraneans.
Jym's original order
>>Visions of Gerard
>>Dr. Sax
>>Maggie Cassidy
>>Vanity of Duluoz
>>The Town and the City
>>On The Road
>>Visions of Cody
>>Lonesome Traveler
>>Book of Blues
>>The Subterraneans
>>The Book of Dreams
>>The Dharma Bums
>>The Scripture of the Golden Eternity
>>Old Angel Midnight
>>Some of the Dharma
>>Desolation Angels
>>Mexico City Blues
>>Tristessa
>>Big Sur
>>Trip Trap
>>Satori in Paris
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:24:26 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> I think neither Pic nor Town and City should be in the Duluoz Legend.
While I agree re: "Pic," I must respectfully demur re: "Town and the City."
Certainly "Town" is much more fictionalized than most of Jack's other
books, but if you look at the Martin brothers as essentially various
aspects of Jack's personality split into separate characters, plus of
course the inclusion of Ginsberg, Burroughs, and company as characters in
the City section, one can see how this book fits into the Legend.
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:46:42 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: opening and closing books duluoz
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It is this savage plight that plagues most biographies, the ability of the
"biographer" to capture the mind/thought of the person in question about who
he or she was thinking or their particular motive in any situation. Stella
Kerouac was one of the few supporters of Jack's work in Lowell and one of
the few women who he really opened up to what he was thinking both
personally and artistically. Check out the few letters in Selected Letters
for example....Sincerely, Paul...
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:47:50 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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At 03:02 PM 11/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I think that Lonesome Traveller has to be divuded up into its' consituent
>stories. Some take place earlier and some later. For example the story
>about the gun and how Duluoz carefully chose not to bring it to his friend
>is earlier (around On the Road time) than October in the Railroad Earth
>which would be early fifities after Visions of Cody but pre-Subterraneans.
>
>
>
>Jym's original order
>>>Visions of Gerard
>>>Dr. Sax
>>>Maggie Cassidy
>>>Vanity of Duluoz
>>>The Town and the City
>>>On The Road
>>>Visions of Cody
>>>Lonesome Traveler
>>>Book of Blues
>>>The Subterraneans
>>>The Book of Dreams
>>>The Dharma Bums
>>>The Scripture of the Golden Eternity
>>>Old Angel Midnight
>>>Some of the Dharma
>>>Desolation Angels
>>>Mexico City Blues
>>>Tristessa
>>>Big Sur
>>>Trip Trap
>>>Satori in Paris
>
Don't forget the short but nonetheless effective piece, Home At Christmas.
Paul...
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:10:28 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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> RACE wrote:
> it is the idenitification with
> another's suffering as both showing that your suffering is real, but
> also that your suffering might not be the worst thing anyone has ever
> felt emotionally. in the passage from JK, it is not just a loneliness,
> but an anger at the alien-ness of feeling like one doesn't belong to
> the
> human race. But in reading the words and identifying with them and the
> feelings behind them, I know that there are people in the human race
> who
> have been where i've been and know the paths to some extent that i'm
> on.
I can understand your sense of the positive here, to know that someone
else has been on the same paths and thought the same things. But it is
your sense of positiveness as a reader rather than that Jack was making a
positive statement.
> another level is the absurdity that this is the worst it could be. i
> think what brought the most laughter to me was when the viciousness of
> the emotions became associated with automobiles. not only is the irony
> of it amazing as marie pointed out, but the absurdity of blaming it all
> on a car just had me in stitches. and in a similar way as above, i
> find
> myself flashing back on situations in which emotional depths in my life
> become connected to particular symbols and those things or people can
> hardly deserve to be the scapegoat of the emotions. I recall not so
> long ago a 35 cents pair of cutoffs became the focus of an anger that
> had lasted decades. Absurd. Just as in the automobile blaming.
Now here I recognize and identify with your sense of the "absurdity" of
it all. However, to go back to the original passage that Marie posted, I
didn't feel his sense of anger was about the automobile but it was about
the fact the people no longer have a sense of destination. Time has
changed the human race but Jack has not changed with it, and he doesn't
see the changes as positive. He identified with the people that were
walking fast toward something, perhaps even driving fast toward
something. But now the strolling from the automobile parking lot has no
goal. People aren't doing what he wrote about in On the Road, where the
automobile was simply a new mechanism for a more spiritual striving. The
automobile is simply a convenience. But he is not angry at the
automobile but at the emptiness of what it means to be human.
> And the fact that JK is able to write his way out of the anger is
> probably the most beautifully positive experience of it. Not only does
> the author let you know these feelings are/were experienced, but also
> in
> the fact that you are reading the words the author has found a creative
> means to survive and move past the moments of those emotions.
> Certainly
> it may be a fleeting moment and emotions come back and haunt, but the
> possibility of escaping and finding happiness of some sort in our
> natural gifts provides some positive feelings (and perhaps this reading
> is aided by the hints provided that the emotion does not last through
> the entire book in another post on this thread).
I don't know yet what happens by the end of the book as I have never read
it completely through. But based on his life and his other books it's
hard to see the positive aspect of the writer working out his anger by
writing about it. I don't think he worked out his own anger at all, I
think it was there in every drink he took to deal with it right to the
end of his life. The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote
to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his
dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he
personally didn't make the leap.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:36:45 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening and closing books duluoz
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> Marie Countryman wrote:
> pg 262-3
> "in fact i began to behink myself in that hospital. i began to
> understand that the city intellectuals of the world were divorced from
> the folkbody blood of the land and were just rotless fools, to
> permissable fools, who really didn't know how to go on living. I began
> to get a new vision of my own of a truer darkness which just
> overshadowed all this overlaid mental garbage of 'existentialism' 'and
> hipsterism' and bourgeois decadence' and whatever names you want to
> give
> it.
> in the purity of my hospital bed, weeks on end, i, staring at the dim
> ceiling while the poor men snored, saw that life is a brute creation,
> beautiful and cruel, that when you see a springtime bud covered with
> raindew, how can you believe it's beautiful when you know the moisture
> is just there to encourage the bud to flower out just so's it can fall
> off sere dead dry in the fall? all the contemporary LSD acid heads (if
> 1967) see the cruel beauty of the brute creation just by closing their
> eyes: i've seen it too since: a maniacal mandala circle all mosaic and
> dense with millions of cruel things and beautiful scenes goin on, like
> say, swiftly on one side i saw one night a choirmaster of some sort in
> 'heaven' slowly going Ooowith his mouth in awe at the beauty of what
> they were singing but right next to him is a pig being fed to an
> alligator by cruel attendants on a pier and people walking by
> unconcerned. just an example. Or that horrible mother kali of ancient
> india and its wisdom aeons with all her arms bejeweled, legs and belly
> too, gyrating insanely to eat back thru the only part of her that's not
> jeweled, her yoni or yin, everythings she's given birth to. Mother
> nature giving you birth and eating you back.
> and i say wars and social catastrophes arise from the cruel nature of
> bestial creation, and not from 'society' which after all has good
> intentions or it wouldn't be called 'society' wouold it?
> it is, face it , a mean heartless creation emanated by a God of wrath,
> jehovah, yaweth, no-name, who will pat you kindly on the head and say
> 'now your'e being good' when you pray, but when your're begging for
> mercy anyway say like a soldier hung by one leg from a tree trunk in
> today's Vietnam, when yaweh's really got you out in the back of the
> barn
> even in ordinary natureof fatal illness like my pa's then, he wont
> (sic)
> listen, he will whack away at your lil behind with the long stick of
> what they call 'original sin' in the theological christian dogmatic
> sects but what i call 'the original sacrifice.'
> that's not even worse, for god's sake , than watching your own human
> father pop die in real life when you really realize 'father, father,
> why
> has thou forsaken me?' for real, the man who gae you hopeful birth is
> copping out right before your eyes and leaves you flat with the whole
> problem and burden (your self) of his own foolishness in ever believing
> that 'life' was worth anything what it smells like down in the bellevue
> morgue when i had to identify franz'a body. your human father sits
> there
> in death before you almost satisfied. that's what's so sad and horrible
> about the 'god is dead' movement in contemporary religion, it's the
> most
> tearful and forlorn phiosophical idea of all time."
> _____
> the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,
> who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man
> he
> had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before
> becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning
> of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.
> having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very
> successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous
> breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and
> humanity and spirituality.
> mc
Marie, thanks a lot for posting more passages. I agree with your
assessment of "a dark negation." What is also interesting in Kerouac is
that he so often grasps onto the despair of life in connection with
death. Like in the above passage, he is so pained by the
death-separation of his own father. And then he looks at his own death,
and concludes that there is really no point to doing anything because we
are all going to die. And to me, that is almost the opposite of the way
he describes the meaning of beat, to mean "beatific" not beaten. In the
above passage he is beaten, when he writes stuff like "his own
foolishness in ever believing that life was worth anything." The other
conclusion could and should be that life is worth something because it
ends in death. You should live now because you are going to die. Why
give up on life before death takes you. Also, if one is going to grab
onto the concept of original sin, a wrathful God, and the "Why or why
hast thou forsaken me attitude?," why not also grab onto the more
positive points of Catholicism? His own deep self-hatred seemed to
negate the positive points in almost everything.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:24:28 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:00:41 +0000 from
<country@SOVER.NET>
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:00:41 +0000 Marie Countryman said:
>wrote _the medium is the message_ has great short cameo role in annie hall.
>
>RACE --- wrote:
>
>> Marie Countryman wrote:
>> > Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>> > people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>> > sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>> > mc
>>
>> anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>> here? i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to
>> check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough
>> to the other side of writer's block>
>>
>> david rhaesa
>> salina, Kansas
Kerouac may have read "The Mechanical Bride" (1951). I think he would have bee
n in sympathy with McLuhan's views on the "American Mama's Boy."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:53:09 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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The big McLuhan book is Understanding Media, but Marshall
was a mirky explainer of his own stuff, which isn't about beats
anyway, but about media. His insight was that the FORM of the
medium was more important than the content that was on it. He
pointed out that certain types of people were more fit to perform
in one media than in another. Certain types of content were more
suitable for new media like Television, than other kinds of
content. He made other kinds of assertions like that, but his
books are hard to read. I read in the NYTimes Book
Review in the last week, a review of a book that explains
McLuhan better than the now-dead media maven did himself. I'll
dig it out for you if you're interested.
Mike Rice
At 10:14 AM 11/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>>>
>>> >Marie Countryman wrote:
>>> >> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>>> >> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>>> >> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>>> >> mc
>>> >
>>> >anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>>> >here?
>>>
>>> Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.
>>
>>well obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg
>>Galaxy - i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not
>>certain). I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading lists for Jack that
>>we'd been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the
>>basic themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really
>>frustrate a natural born writer.
>>
>
>You think a good boy like Jack wasn't reading Catholic World?
>
>I am sure he was familiar with McCluhan fro awhile from mcCluhans writings
>about Finnegans wake.
>
>(Which McCluhan book is specifically referred to in the opening allusion in
>Vanity of Duluoz (if any partiular one) --I don't know).
>
>
>>david rhaesa
>>salina, Kansas
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:49:42 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: A little too much of the Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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wet toilet paper does the trick just fine.
> "The President of the United States, the big ministers of state, the great
> bishops and shmishops and big shots everywhere, down to the lowest factory
> worker with all his fierce pride, movie stars, executives and great engineers
> and presidents of law firms with silk shirts and neckties and great expensive
> traveling cases in which they place these various expensive English imported
> hair brushes and shaving gear and pomades and perfumes are all walking around
> with dirty azzoles! All you gotta do is simply wash yourself with soap and
> water! it hasnt occurred to anybody in America at all! it's one of the
> funniest things I've ever heard of! dont you think it's marvelous that we're
> being called filthy unwashed beatnikes but we're the only ones walking around
> with clean azzoles?" [sic all punctuation/capitalization]
>
> In only slight contrast, perfectly appropriate to a Zen master, Lin-Chi says:
>
> "In Buddhism there is no place for using effort. Just be ordinary and nothing
> special. Eat your food, move your bowels, pass water, and when you're tired
> go and lie down again. The ignorant will laugh at me, but the wise will
> understand.
>
>
> I always am reminded how deep was Jack's search (no pun) for spirituality
> when I read the many, many things he wrote about the care and feeding of his
> body while obeying his equally strong compulsion for self-destruction.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 20:28:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Preston Whaley mentioned that I left "Pic" out of the Duluoz Legend. This
>was not an accident. I frankly don't see how it fits in, as there is no
>appearance by Jack himself, in character or not. I seem to recall that at
>one point Jack intended the main character to meet up with Sal and Dean,
>but that Memere encouraged him to edit that part out before publication.
>Of course, it has been years since I read "Pic," so maybe my memory is
>faulty on this. Anyone?
>
>Jym
Jym,
thankyou for stating your reasons. i typed way too soon. Haven't read Pic.
I'm (em)bare-assed. Is Pic written first person? JK once wrote in OR
he'd wished he were a negro. Since the book was begun in '51, I wonder if
there is a vicarious dimension to it? I'll have to read-see.
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:00:26 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening and closing books duluoz
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have done so since yr last post. again, thanks paul.
mc
Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:
> It is this savage plight that plagues most biographies, the ability of the
> "biographer" to capture the mind/thought of the person in question about who
> he or she was thinking or their particular motive in any situation. Stella
> Kerouac was one of the few supporters of Jack's work in Lowell and one of
> the few women who he really opened up to what he was thinking both
> personally and artistically. Check out the few letters in Selected Letters
> for example....Sincerely, Paul...
> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:11:51 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: beat-lives!!!
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even when caught with foot in mouth (hat off to paul) i am feeling
wonderful about beat-l again! so glad that the duluoz has prompted so
many thoughtful posts!
will finish my re-ead of big sur, am also thinking that dharma bums
makes a good contrast and am beginning to re-read it as well. many
thanks to all who responded! beat-l lives!
(and still am curious re: wsb and letters to ginsberg, interzone, naked
lunch: if the routines were separate, i still wonder if their seeds are
not to be found in the letters- wsb specialists, any takers?
thanks for a great, thought provoking day.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:30:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: SOTD @ St.Marks
In-Reply-To: <199711181828.KAA17029@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Is anyone going to the Some of the Dharma reading at St.Mark's on December
3rd? Let me know, I would love to meet people from the list. Thanks.
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:56:26 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Mike Rice wrote:
>
> The big McLuhan book is Understanding Media, but Marshall
> was a mirky explainer of his own stuff, which isn't about beats
> anyway, but about media. His insight was that the FORM of the
> medium was more important than the content that was on it. He
> pointed out that certain types of people were more fit to perform
> in one media than in another. Certain types of content were more
> suitable for new media like Television, than other kinds of
> content. He made other kinds of assertions like that, but his
> books are hard to read. I read in the NYTimes Book
> Review in the last week, a review of a book that explains
> McLuhan better than the now-dead media maven did himself. I'll
> dig it out for you if you're interested.
>
> Mike Rice
>
Mike, thanks for that explanation... You know, I tried and TRIED to
"get" that book, but it just seemed like gobbledygook when I read it,
back in '73. Of course, I was always stoned back then, but I like your
explanation better...
s
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:50:54 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: beat-lives!!!
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> even when caught with foot in mouth (hat off to paul) i am feeling
> wonderful about beat-l again! so glad that the duluoz has prompted so
> many thoughtful posts!
> will finish my re-ead of big sur, am also thinking that dharma bums
> makes a good contrast and am beginning to re-read it as well. many
> thanks to all who responded! beat-l lives!
> (and still am curious re: wsb and letters to ginsberg, interzone, naked
> lunch: if the routines were separate, i still wonder if their seeds are
> not to be found in the letters- wsb specialists, any takers?
> thanks for a great, thought provoking day.
> mc
beat-l has risen indeed.
i think there are some obvious connections between WSB letters and
writings. i recall specifically due to geography a routine in one of
the books about the connection with the President. In the letters the
same appears but the President is explicitly my neighbor to the east --
Eisenhower.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:52:14 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Pic
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Preston Whaley wrote:
> Is Pic written first person? JK once wrote in OR
> he'd wished he were a negro. Since the book was begun in '51, I wonder
if
> there is a vicarious dimension to it? I'll have to read-see.
Yes, in the persona of a ten year old black boy from the south.
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:20:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Anthony Celentano <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and atheism
and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a
discussion about actual Beat literature. I mean, I could discuss the
pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all
this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack Kerouac
was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been
amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media. I think
it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any
vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions
about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured
something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into
that magic. I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I
contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats? Thanks, and
perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm
talking about,
Anthony
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:27:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In-Reply-To: <971122150508_1247905025@mrin51.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> I think if you look closely you will see that the the Gap ad is not the same
> photo as on Minor Characters by Joyce Johnson. Same roll of film, and it is
> possible that Joyce was airbrushed out in the the gap photo, but different
> photos.
What I know is from Joyce's mouth, and that's the same picture she cites.
There was quite a bit of other work done to it to play up certain parts of
the image over others, sharpen it, etc. The original, I seem to remember,
was much darker and a little duller, color too maybe. Probably switched
to black and white for mood and ease of editing, sharpness, etc.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:11:48 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (FWD) Comparative Religions
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122205919.006a79f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:25:58 -0400 (EDT)
>From: YokoMofo@aol.com
>Subject: Comparative Religions
>
>A short guide to comparative religions
>
> Taoism - Shit happens.
>
> Confucism - Confucius say, "Shit happens."
>
> Islamism - If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
>
> Buddhism - If shit happens, it isn't really shit.
>
> Roman Catholicism - Shit happens because you are bad.
>
> Calvinism - Shit happens becuase you don't work hard enough.
>
> Judaism - Why does this shit always happen to us?
>
> Lutheranism - If shit happens, have fiath, and it will stop happening.
>
> Presybterianism - If shit has to happen, let it happen to someone else.
>
> Zen - What is shit?
>
> Jesuitism - If shit happens and nobody hears it, did it really make a sound?
>
> Christian Science - If shit happesn, don't worry; it will go away on its
>own.
>
> Hedonism - When shit happens, enjoy it.
>
> Seventh Day Adventism - Shit happens every day but Saturday.
>
> Hare Krishna - Shit happens. Rama, rama, ohm, ohm.
>
> Kastafarianism - Let's smoke this shit.
>
> Hinduism - This shit happened before
>
> Mormonism - This shit happened before, and it's going to happen again.
>
> Atheism - Shit doesn't happen.
>
> Agnosticism - Maybe shit happens, and maybe it doesn't
>
> Stoicism - So shit happens Big deal. I can take it!!!
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 06:56:14 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Corso best? (was Re: is this still beat-l?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Anthony Celentano wrote:
>
> I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and atheism
> and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a
> discussion about actual Beat literature. I mean, I could discuss the
> pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all
> this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack Kerouac
> was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been
> amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media. I think
> it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any
> vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions
> about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured
> something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into
> that magic. I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I
> contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats? Thanks, and
> perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm
> talking about,
>
> Anthony
what your talking about writing sounds wonderful. i hope to learn tons
from your posts. I especially like the idea of someone big into Corso
posting stuff. I'm still very weak in his department. I got MineField
on my last trip to Denver and have read some of it but not enough.
i don't know whether i'll agree with you on him being the best poet, but
i'll certainly enjoy the posts.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 07:11:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Diane Carter wrote:
> The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote
> to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his
> dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he
> personally didn't make the leap.
> DC
This reader-based orientation is probably what i'm looking at more in my
initial post. I think it is a little more than that. It is the reader
meeting the author finding points of identification and then being able
to see from the distance of time and the medium the pathway around the
anger. Without JK's lovely accounting of these kinds of feelings, it
might be easy to fall into the same traps. At least for me :)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 06:49:33 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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I like your point here, David
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
>Diane Carter wrote:
>> The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote
>> to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his
>> dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he
>> personally didn't make the leap.
>> DC
>
>This reader-based orientation is probably what i'm looking at more in my
>initial post. I think it is a little more than that. It is the reader
>meeting the author finding points of identification and then being able
>to see from the distance of time and the medium the pathway around the
>anger. Without JK's lovely accounting of these kinds of feelings, it
>might be easy to fall into the same traps. At least for me :)
>
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:56:04 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Corso best? (was Re: is this still beat-l?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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welcome aboard, anthony!
glad to have another person interested in discussing the beats and literature.
i'm
very fond of corso, _love elegaic feelings american_,and also the pranksterish
role he so often played among the crowd. there is a video (i'll get this
backward
i know) called fried shoes and something else-- beats at naropa, in which AG and
corso and others(gap in memory) which is much like a 'home movie' : beat poets
hang out at naropa, kidding around, reading bits and pieces, and then all go out
to train tracks to demonstrate against nuclear material being sent (oh boy, no
memory this morning but i'll trudge on and hope someone clarifies this for me -
irony would be that you've already seen it, anthony- any way, corso reads BOMB.
i
don't know if he is best poet, but sure is a very beat beat. (in beautific
sense)
now i'll muddle myself outta here. keep them posts and questions coming
mc
RACE --- wrote:
> Anthony Celentano wrote:
> >
> > I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and
atheism
> > and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a
> > discussion about actual Beat literature. I mean, I could discuss the
> > pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all
> > this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack
Kerouac
> > was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been
> > amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media. I think
> > it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any
> > vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions
> > about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured
> > something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into
> > that magic. I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I
> > contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats? Thanks, and
> > perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm
> > talking about,
> >
> > Anthony
>
> what your talking about writing sounds wonderful. i hope to learn tons
> from your posts. I especially like the idea of someone big into Corso
> posting stuff. I'm still very weak in his department. I got MineField
> on my last trip to Denver and have read some of it but not enough.
>
> i don't know whether i'll agree with you on him being the best poet, but
> i'll certainly enjoy the posts.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:28:54 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Leon Tabory wrote:
>
> I like your point here, David
>
> leon
thanks. it sure is taking me a lot of posts to try and make sense of
myself <grin>.....after re-reading my posts on this thread, i think that
they made the most sense to me in reading this one first and then going
back the other stuff made more sense to me.
meeting the author (and characters as well) is a big part of any reading
experience for me. i haven't quite grasped what the experience of
reading is supposed to be about when it doesn't include that.
david
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 5:12 AM
> Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
>
> >Diane Carter wrote:
> >> The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote
> >> to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his
> >> dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he
> >> personally didn't make the leap.
> >> DC
> >
> >This reader-based orientation is probably what i'm looking at more in my
> >initial post. I think it is a little more than that. It is the reader
> >meeting the author finding points of identification and then being able
> >to see from the distance of time and the medium the pathway around the
> >anger. Without JK's lovely accounting of these kinds of feelings, it
> >might be easy to fall into the same traps. At least for me :)
> >
> >david rhaesa
> >salina, Kansas
> >.-
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:32:38 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: a poem by Carol Berge.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
OF ROOTS AND SOURCES by Carol Berge
(for d. levertov)
as when the person's bones and thoughts
show like branches, through the skin,
through the years, overlaid in muted or
fern tracery. or the voice remembered
when the page is read. it is the sense
of the thing to come, when discovering
this face that is not new, after all:
the idea opposite you which agrees
with these definitions you have become.
under spruce, the needles fall and fall,
the new in patterns resembling letters,
the past forming their base or the way
through which the fine sheets climb.
it is those moving near you, to remind
of roots and sources, of your own leaf.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:46:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: big surLiSizeD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was
about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go=
in
and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing
naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or=
so
had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in =
its
found state.=20
On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking abou=
t a
girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and th=
at
she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD someday=
,"
because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except fo=
r
that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone crazy=
and
had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description of =
his
legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my d=
ad
said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think you
are."
But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenever=
I
could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had
anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and crash=
ing
into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his writi=
ng,
and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from
psychedelics).
Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of
friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so, =
but
it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of acid =
you
don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in a
white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in to =
talk
to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I w=
as
never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whatever =
I'd
known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.
After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out c=
ouch
at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my
sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down =
the
sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If yo=
u'll
just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, =
I
promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asleep=
,
although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house pac=
ed
through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whew.=
..
shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to adm=
it
what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like talki=
ng
about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.
It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and went=
to
church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscate =
that
bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with u=
s. I
was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. Hel=
l, I
didn't need to.
So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's word=
s:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
------------------------------
And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people c=
an
be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Garden
once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "Ther=
e's
a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind tha=
t
hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant expl=
ain
it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical paran=
oia
they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the
universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi wh=
o
finally had to have a lobotomy=97Which sets me thinking how nice to cut a=
way
therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING!.=
..
Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
-----------
...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for
always, thank you"=97I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come over=
me
for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on
emptiness and all of a sudden the Cross is manifested to me=97My eyes fi=
ll
with tears=97"We'll all be saved=97I wont even tell Dave Wain about it, I=
wont go
wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough=97now I can
sleep."
As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of t=
he
required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so
accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some
chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had go=
t
hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was alw=
ays
eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.
But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only unl=
ock
what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Book =
of
Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal because
they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved me
though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jack =
up,
but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state, n=
ot
really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly dea=
th
than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:03:32 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
that's an amazing story. and yeah, i think you hit it right on the head, man,
that horrible place of knowing and fearing the knowing. knowing you can't go
back, frightened to go forward, not sure if there is a forward. scared to
live and scared to die. like Joyce's "general paralysis of the insane"...
only magnified by the horrors of all the demons in one's head...
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of You_Be Fine
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 1997 1:46 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: big surLiSizeD
There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was
about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go=
in
and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing
naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or=
so
had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in =
its
found state.=20
On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking abou=
t a
girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and th=
at
she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD someday=
,"
because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except fo=
r
that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone crazy=
and
had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description of =
his
legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my d=
ad
said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think you
are."
But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenever=
I
could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had
anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and crash=
ing
into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his writi=
ng,
and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from
psychedelics).
Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of
friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so, =
but
it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of acid =
you
don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in a
white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in to =
talk
to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I w=
as
never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whatever =
I'd
known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.
After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out c=
ouch
at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my
sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down =
the
sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If yo=
u'll
just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, =
I
promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asleep=
,
although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house pac=
ed
through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whew.=
..
shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to adm=
it
what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like talki=
ng
about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.
It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and went=
to
church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscate =
that
bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with u=
s. I
was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. Hel=
l, I
didn't need to.
So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's word=
s:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
------------------------------
And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people c=
an
be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Garden
once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "Ther=
e's
a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind tha=
t
hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant expl=
ain
it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical paran=
oia
they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the
universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi wh=
o
finally had to have a lobotomy=97Which sets me thinking how nice to cut a=
way
therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING!.=
..
Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
-----------
...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for
always, thank you"=97I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come over=
me
for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on
emptiness and all of a sudden the Cross is manifested to me=97My eyes fi=
ll
with tears=97"We'll all be saved=97I wont even tell Dave Wain about it, I=
wont go
wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough=97now I can
sleep."
As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of t=
he
required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so
accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some
chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had go=
t
hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was alw=
ays
eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.
But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only unl=
ock
what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Book =
of
Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal because
they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved me
though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jack =
up,
but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state, n=
ot
really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly dea=
th
than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:10:25 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
hello
from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in
a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. but you did have
a nice theory about jack's catalyst, and excellent insight. you can
check hyperreal, though. they always have the staight dope <g>
randall
> There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was
> about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go in
> and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing
> naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or so
> had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in its
> found state.
>
> On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking about a
> girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and that
> she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD someday,"
> because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except for
> that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone crazy and
> had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description of his
> legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my dad
> said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think you
> are."
>
> But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenever I
> could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had
> anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and crashing
> into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his writing,
> and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from
> psychedelics).
>
> Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of
> friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so, but
> it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of acid you
> don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in a
> white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in to talk
> to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I was
> never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whatever I'd
> known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.
>
> After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out couch
> at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my
> sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down the
> sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If you'll
> just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, I
> promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asleep,
> although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house paced
> through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whew...
> shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to admit
> what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like talking
> about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.
>
> It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and went to
> church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscate that
> bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with us. I
> was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. Hell, I
> didn't need to.
>
> So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's words:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people can
> be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Garden
> once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "There's
> a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind that
> hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant explain
> it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical paranoia
> they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the
> universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi who
> finally had to have a lobotomy-Which sets me thinking how nice to cut away
> therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING!...
>
> Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> ...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for
> always, thank you"-I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come over me
> for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on
> emptiness and all of a sudden the Cross is manifested to me-My eyes fill
> with tears-"We'll all be saved-I wont even tell Dave Wain about it, I wont go
> wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough-now I can
> sleep."
>
> As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of the
> required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so
> accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some
> chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had got
> hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was always
> eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.
>
> But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only unlock
> what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Book of
> Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal because
> they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved me
> though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jack up,
> but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state, not
> really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly death
> than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:37:04 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
randy royal wrote:
>
> hello
> from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in
> a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. but you did have
> a nice theory about jack's catalyst, and excellent insight. you can
> check hyperreal, though. they always have the staight dope <g>
> randall
>
> > There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was
> > about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go in
> > and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing
> > naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or so
> > had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in its
> > found state.
rye egot dates back much further than this. it is supposedly something
used in religious ritual in the ancient greek mystery religions.
according to some accounts, it was given to Socrates by the Oracle at
Delphi. such an account of Socrates' initiation provides quite a
different spin on all the writings about him.
i wonder how long i need to leave the rye bread out? :)
LSD is a synthesized hallucinogen which has qualities similar to rye
egot or mushrooms. while the comments that it is all there in one's
mind already and LSD just makes it apparent, my experience is that the
pace at which one experiences it is sped up incredibly. Some of the
ideas revealed over ten years ago just make sense in real-time. Other
notions have yet to be revealed.
The words I heard Allen Ginbserg use on some video attributing to JK
about LSD that "walking on water wasn't built in a day" is a fairly
accurate assessment in some ways of some of the experiences. never a
"bad" trip....but always baffling notions at the edges and the edges are
at the level that might not be built in several lifetimes but are pushed
into such a compressed time as to be potentially disabling when the
walking on water wears off. this is especially the case if one is in a
rush to learn the meaning of any particular visions.
also, everyone's brain chemistry is different and so some folks may have
experiences as "odd" without the addition of chemicals which it would
take others huge quantities of chemicals to imitate. just differences
we all have.
just a few notions from a disabled veteran of psychedelics and
psychotropics :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:52:46 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <347754AE.5C4@midusa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> Diane Carter wrote:
> >
> >
> > I have some trouble seeing your more positive reading of the passage. I
> > see it once again as a very tired Kerouac immersed in his own sorrow.
> > DC
>
> Diane,
>
> your whole post is wonderful (as usual) and i'll try to get to the rest
> of it on a day when i haven't used up so many of my ten posts. but
> since you and marie didn't see where i was really coming from on this
> reading, i thought i'd take a moment to try and clarify.
>
> i'm not sure that it is a positive reading per se, as much as an absurd
> reading with perhaps a positive lesson. i'll try to be a bit clearer.
>
> the first positive i feel is the positiveness of identification. i
> definitely felt the "been there, done that and survived it" feeling
> while reading those words. certainly, the style in which JK describes
> it is beyond me, but i definitely got the sense of -- yeah i've seen
> life that dark before. fairly similar to the feeling i get when
> listening to something like Hank Williams' "I'm So Lonesome I Could
> Cry", it is absurd to find happiness in perhaps the saddest song ever
> written, but it is there for me in knowing that some one has felt depths
> of loneliness that when i feel them it seems i am the only one who could
> ever have been there and done that. it is the idenitification with
> another's suffering as both showing that your suffering is real, but
> also that your suffering might not be the worst thing anyone has ever
> felt emotionally. in the passage from JK, it is not just a loneliness,
> but an anger at the alien-ness of feeling like one doesn't belong to the
> human race. But in reading the words and identifying with them and the
> feelings behind them, I know that there are people in the human race who
> have been where i've been and know the paths to some extent that i'm on.
>
David,
I agree with you. Kerouac seems to have gotten some sense of relief (or
release) by articulating his Rubaiyat-like disgruntlement with the human
condition. Remember Sal Paradise after seeing _Fidelio_(?) in _On the
Road_: he goes around chirping "What gloom!"
Cordially,
Mike Skau
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:55:32 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How can I myself offer any analysis of Big Sur after yr incredible
heartfelt post? That was one of the best postings to the list that I've
read in my year or so on beat-l. It's a keeper.
Thanks,
Adrien
You_Be Fine wrote:
>=20
> There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It w=
as
> about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could =
go in
> and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing
> naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s =
or so
> had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical i=
n its
> found state.
>=20
> On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking ab=
out a
> girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and =
that
> she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD somed=
ay,"
> because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except =
for
> that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone cra=
zy and
> had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description o=
f his
> legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my=
dad
> said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think yo=
u
> are."
>=20
> But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenev=
er I
> could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had
> anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and cra=
shing
> into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his wri=
ting,
> and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from
> psychedelics).
>=20
> Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of
> friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so=
, but
> it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of aci=
d you
> don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in =
a
> white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in t=
o talk
> to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I=
was
> never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whateve=
r I'd
> known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.
>=20
> After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out=
couch
> at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my
> sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling dow=
n the
> sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If =
you'll
> just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again=
, I
> promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asle=
ep,
> although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house p=
aced
> through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whe=
w...
> shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to a=
dmit
> what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like tal=
king
> about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.
>=20
> It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and we=
nt to
> church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscat=
e that
> bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with=
us. I
> was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. H=
ell, I
> didn't need to.
>=20
> So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's wo=
rds:
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
> ------------------------------
> And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people=
can
> be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Gard=
en
> once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "Th=
ere's
> a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind t=
hat
> hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant ex=
plain
> it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical par=
anoia
> they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the
> universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi =
who
> finally had to have a lobotomy=97Which sets me thinking how nice to cut=
away
> therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING=
!...
>=20
> Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
> -----------
> ...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for
> always, thank you"=97I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come ov=
er me
> for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on
> emptiness and all of a sudden the Cross is manifested to me=97My eyes =
fill
> with tears=97"We'll all be saved=97I wont even tell Dave Wain about it,=
I wont go
> wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough=97now I ca=
n
> sleep."
>=20
> As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of=
the
> required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so
> accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some
> chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had =
got
> hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was a=
lways
> eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.
>=20
> But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only u=
nlock
> what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Boo=
k of
> Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal becau=
se
> they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved =
me
> though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jac=
k up,
> but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state,=
not
> really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly d=
eath
> than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:18:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: big surLiSizeD
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD
Date: 97-11-23 18:12:34 EST
From: AngelMindz
To: randyr@southeast.net
In a message dated 97-11-23 18:06:00 EST, randy wrote:
<< from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in
a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. >>
yeah, i think this is true, in terms of isolating the chemical itself. But I
do believe the magazine story (early Sixties notwithstanding) was accurate,
as well, since most chemical substances (including that good old mold,
penicillin) occur naturally somewhere in our ecosystem, not just in a petri
dish. and there are no accidents; just discoveries.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 08:14:52 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: from Vanity of Duluoz
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There's a really interesting passage I found (I don't know the page
number as not having the book I'm reading the selections that are in The
Portable Kerouac) in Book V, where it seems like it might be the first
time that Jack has really looked at his own life in terms of the greater
universe. This takes place the summer before his sophomore year at
Columbia where he is still playing football and not yet a writer.
"One night my cousin Blanche came to the house and sat in the kitchen
talking to Ma among the packed boxes. I sat on the porch outside and
leaned way back with feet on rail and gazed at the stars for the first
time in my life. A clear August night, the stars, the Milky Way, the
whole works clear. I stared and stared till they stared back at me.
Where the hell was I and what was all this?
I went into the parlour and sat down in my father's old deep easy
chair and fell into the wildest daydream of my life. This is important
and this is the key to the story, wifey dear:
[I'm leaving out the entire daydream as it is quite long but the gist of
it is in the paragraph below where he is a champion in just about any
activity he undertakes]
I'm the world's heavyweight boxing champion, the greatest writer,
the world's champ miler, Rose Bowl and (pro-bound with New York Giants
football non pareil) now offered every job on every paper in New York,
and what else? Tennis anyone?
I woke up from this daydream suddenly realizing that all I had to
do was go back on the porch and look at the stars again, which I did, and
they still just stared at me blankly.
In other words I suddenly realized that all my ambitions, no
matter how they came out, and of course as you can see fom the preceding
narrative, they came out fairly ordinary, it wouldnt matter anyway in the
intervening space between human breathings and the 'sigh of the happy
stars,' so to speak, to quote Thoreau again.
It just didn't matter what I did, anytime, anywhere, with anyone;
life is funny like I said.
I suddenly realized we were all crazy and had nothing to work for
except the next meal and the next good sleep.
O God in the Heavens, what a fumbling, hard-hanging, goof world
it is, that people actually think they can gain anything from either
this, or that, or thissa, or thatta, and in so doing, corrupt their
sacred graves in the name of sacred-grave corruption."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:08:44 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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david and all:
you'd know better than i thru experience. and with stuff as sticky
like this, i think i'd like to leave it that way.
randy
> ---------------------
> Forwarded message:
> Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD
> Date: 97-11-23 18:12:34 EST
> From: AngelMindz
> To: randyr@southeast.net
>
> In a message dated 97-11-23 18:06:00 EST, randy wrote:
>
> << from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in
> a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. >>
>
> yeah, i think this is true, in terms of isolating the chemical itself. But I
> do believe the magazine story (early Sixties notwithstanding) was accurate,
> as well, since most chemical substances (including that good old mold,
> penicillin) occur naturally somewhere in our ecosystem, not just in a petri
> dish. and there are no accidents; just discoveries.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:36:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
Comments: To: race@midusa.net
Hey Beat-list have any of you tried Toad Venom?
T.V.
"I've got a new drug."
Fritz has a new drug.
"Toad venom wanna smoke some?"
"What does it do?"
"Mild high, acid, hash, coke buzz."
"Totally toadular."
Nee deep, Nee deep.
We drive to the beach,
Climb down cliffs.
Fritz loads the pipe,
Flaky wax substance.
Take a hit,
Rolling, ground.
Kids on the cliff shout,
"Hey man, smoke that bud up here dude."
Fritz takes a hit. Now we are both rolling,
I yell back to them,
"TOAD VENOM!!"
Frog high, web brain.
Buddha bug tongue buzz.
Old pond splashes in mind.
Close eyes.
Tune to insects,
Scope, sight, snatch.
Toad Mind, Toad Soul, Wart Love!!
Hallucinaphibians in desert,
Arizona evenings, web foot summer.
Glands in the backs of their necks,
defense against being bit.
Squeeze, pop, juicy, squirt,
On Pyrex dish.
Let it dry over night.
Scrape, scrape.
Fly paper lily pad, LEAP!
Nee deep, Nee deep, Nee Deep.
Yrs,
Gary Mex Glazner
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:42:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Big Sur / LSD
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LSD was discovered in 1938 in a Sandoz Lab in Basil Switzerland, the 25th in
a series of ergot derivatives, thus the name LSD25. Dr Hofman, the
scientist who discovered it, shelfed it until 1943, when shortly after the
Manhatten Project's first nuclear chain reaction, he returned to it and
accidently absorbed some through his fingertips. Some suggest the two
events were cosmiclly linked.
The last documented case of rye ergot poisoning, sometimes referred to as St
Anthony's Fire, occured in Pont-Saint-Esprit, France in 1951. Some deaths
did occur.
The ancient greeks had an ergot laced drink called Kykeon that they used in
an annual pagan ritual which I believe was called the "Elusinian Mysteries."
D.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:59:05 GMT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Christopher M. Dumond" <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
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Why am I prolonging this?
I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes with the
audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"
I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.
Just my two cents
Chris
"I just keep on running faster, chasing the happily I am ever after..."
~Lyle Lovett
Visit Chris's Page at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2124
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:46:52 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kris Kurrus <kurrus@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD
In-Reply-To: <971123181851_207236322@mrin45.mail.aol.com>
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At 11:18 PM 11/23/97 +0000, you wrote:
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD
>Date: 97-11-23 18:12:34 EST
>From: AngelMindz
>To: randyr@southeast.net
>
>In a message dated 97-11-23 18:06:00 EST, randy wrote:
>
><< from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in
> a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. >>
>
>yeah, i think this is true, in terms of isolating the chemical itself. But I
>do believe the magazine story (early Sixties notwithstanding) was accurate,
>as well, since most chemical substances (including that good old mold,
>penicillin) occur naturally somewhere in our ecosystem, not just in a petri
>dish. and there are no accidents; just discoveries.
>
LSD as we know it, or know of it, DOES NOT exist naturally...
OK... I have just been reading posts here for the last few days or so (as i
am doing a graduate study on the "beat generation writiers"-- and whatever
that vague term may be construed to mean)
as an old acidhead myself (and as a somewhat historically minded writer) I
have some insights into the LSD phenomenon (as well as a little historical
perspective)....
OK... so here goes... the indole, LSD (that is d-Lysergic Acid
Diethylamide or LysergSaureDiethylamid in it original German) was first
synthesized in Basil, Switzerland, yes, Sandoz labs (1938-43) by a Dr.
Albert Hoffman (I remember doing paper hits with his portrait on them in
the 70s, hehehe), but did not make into biochemical psychiatry until after
April 16, 1943 (the day Dr Albert accidentally dosed himself) and it was
many years later that this research was released to the medical community
at large (Zurich 1947, first scientific paper published, 1949 first North
American Study, 1953 Sandoz applies to the FDA, and SIMULTANEOUSLY begins
distributing large quantinities of this drug to "qualified" scientists
around the world).... anyhow, after that all hell broke loose.....
So, back to JACK and ergot (and ergotism).... as someone said earlier,
ergot goes way back, in France around 945AD to 1600AD it was known as
"Saint Anthony's Fire" (officially around 1100AD) and was/is quite lethal,
causing muscle spasms, convulsions, and various disturbances of the
consciousness and thinking (version #1). Another version of ergotism
(Version #2 same fungus, different deal) causes limbs to become swollen and
violent burning pain (i.e. the "Fire" of our saint?) which moves rapidly
into gangrene because the ergot causes a contraction of the blood vessels,
hence cutting of blood flow to the limbs... ohh, nasty stuff huh?
So anyway, it is important to note that ergot has Lysergic Acid in it (thus
its property as a hallucinogen) and it was work with this fungus (Claviceps
purpurea) and its alkaloids that lead Dr. Hoffman to the discovery of LSD...
Outside of the beats and Jack's possible ingestion of an ergot dose (which
doesn't seem likely, to me, due to the harsh side effects)... it is
interesting to note (if you are into the Salem witch trials, that I have
read a couple great articles that tie convulsive ergotism (version #1) to
the eight "possesed" girls that started all that hullaballu back in
1692.... oh well, probably not
anyhow, I hope this clears up a little about the possibility of Jack's
exposurem to ergotism during the Big Sur era..... but then, who knows.....
psychedelically yours,
kris kurrus
spokane, washington
and (interestingly, only symptomatic treatment exists even today)....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:27:49 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: LSD INFO RESEARCH HISTORY
MIME-Version: 1.0
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x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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FIRST OF ALL REMEMBER IN ALL HORROR STORIES YOU HEAR, SET AND SETTING PLAY A
MAJOR ROLE IN SAFETY AND ENHANCEMENT OF THE PSYCHEDELIC EXPERIENCE.
LSD 25 was an accidental discovery, yes, but by hoffman who was investigating
all
uses of ergot; not the ergot that contaminates rye see. many other strains. the
bicycle trip home is a classic and is to be found in many of the books listed
below. many books below are out of print. the more scholarly ones were used in
classes exploring the psychedelic experience approx 1966-73, at M.I.T. (one of
co
authors below was an M.I.T. faculty member.
best sources of info relating to discovery and development of lsd as well as
beats/sixties cross over:
*jay stevens : Storming Heaven LSD and the american dream; harper&row/perennial
library, 1988
best source of cia involement and results:
martin a. lee&bruce shlain: ACID DREAMS the complete social history of LSD: the
CIA, the sixties and beyond;
grove pressNY1985
best source of knowledge of all naturally occuring psychedelics:
PLANTS OF THE GODS / albert hofmann and schultes/healing arts press rochester
vt1992
LSD MY PROBLEM CHILD: Albert Hoffman
other resources
PSYCHEDELICS: the uses and implications of halluciongenic drugs/ bernard Asson
and huphrey osmond:anchor books; double day anchor book and company 1970
scholarly studies, both professors
ALTERED STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS: ed. charles t. tart/double day anchor
presscirca
1970 - scholarly research including lsd both professors
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:33:41 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: LSD INFO ADDENDUM
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In most recounts of JK and lsd, by the principals who dosed him,
including leary, the poop was he was acutely uncomfortable with the
experience.
it's in one or two of the books i cited.
storming heaven has account of AG and Peter O's first trip in which they
came bursting exuberantly into leary's living room stark naked wanting
to call the president and kruschev to tell them of how they could end
the cold war....
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:58:19 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> In most recounts of JK and lsd, by the principals who dosed him,
> including leary, the poop was he was acutely uncomfortable with the
> experience.
> it's in one or two of the books i cited.
> storming heaven has account of AG and Peter O's first trip in which they
> came bursting exuberantly into leary's living room stark naked wanting
> to call the president and kruschev to tell them of how they could end
> the cold war....
> mc
burroughs letters suggest that he was less than fond of the experience
as well. but in junkie he refers to having hallucinations as a child
naturally so perhaps his particular chemical makeup wasn't well suited
to this type of chemical change. from what i understand about the
Doctor Sax character and some of the other early kerouac tales, it seems
as though he had a very very active imagination that reached the edges
from early on. so the chemical stimulations from hallucinogenics might
not make sense -- and the understanding of the desire for alcohol to
sedate the negations to which his mind leapt so easily later is also
understandable.
perhaps some form of speed (which provides focus as well as lift - hence
its use on attention-deficit difficulties) was the natural chemical for
Jack. so much of what is considered his kicks and joy seem to come in
periods associated with this chemical use.
does someone know more about the changes in Kerouac's chemical use in
the past ten years or so? did he move strictly to alcohol? when did he
slow on stimulants? are there accounts of what his attitude towards
stimulants were in the later years?
wondering in kansas. soon to head for turkey in Denver.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:01:04 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: oops typo Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> does someone know more about the changes in Kerouac's chemical use in
> the past ten years or so? did he move strictly to alcohol? when did he
> slow on stimulants? are there accounts of what his attitude towards
> stimulants were in the later years?
>
> wondering in kansas. soon to head for turkey in Denver.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
i meant to say "last" ten years, not "past" ten years. though if
anybody on the list has heard from Jack in the past ten years concerning
chemicals or other matters i'd love to hear that too!!!!!
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:52:49 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: ginsberg and GAP
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I found this on the net during one of my intensive Ginsberg
searches. I thought it's a bit relevant to the Kerouac GAP ad
discussion of last week.
Maggie
Allen Ginsberg wears Khakis
I saw it in a GAP ad
in Interview Magazine.
Did someone from the public
relations department at the GAP
call up Allen Ginsberg
and say:
"Picture it --
you're sitting on the
floor surrounded by classic books (we'll even let you choose the
authors)
There's an antique typewriter
sitting in front of you.
You're wearing
the traditional
uniform of beatnik
poets -- literary spectacles,
a classic white T-,
a rugged
tweed jacket, and of course,
khaki pants.
On the bottom of the page,
we see
in elegant black
letters, ALLEN GINSBERG WEARS KHAKIS.
So what do ya think, Allen?"
__________________________________________________________________
Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:02:54 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit
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In a message dated 97-11-23 21:13:42 EST, Kris wrote:
<< distributing large quantinities of this drug to "qualified" scientists
around the world).... anyhow, after that all hell broke loose.....
=20
So, back to JACK and ergot (and ergotism).... as someone said earlier,
>>
I didn't really intend to imply (or even hypothesize) that jack had gotte=
n
hold of some naturally occurring LSD (necessarily). When I read Big Sur o=
ver
again, I was simply struck by how similar his madness was to acid & mesca=
line
trips I took in the Sixties and finally, in 1970. Seems to me there must =
have
been a catlyst that set him off. I've heard people say it was the DTs, an=
d I
don't know too much about those, but I'm betting bummers, DTs and Jeffers=
on
Airplane flights all come out of the same place, and are activated throug=
h
the hypothalmus gland.
But I'd love to hear other accounts of experiences similar to that jack w=
rote
about in Big Sur, and know how they came about. I've seen two schizophren=
ic
breakdowns, but they didn't heal right up like jack's did, and the worst =
of
his delusions seemed to take place over a period of time that was less th=
an
24 hours long.
On the other hand, like Ferlinghetti (Monsanto) keeps telling jack in the
book, "Don't think too much... you think too much." And jack himself wrot=
e
about that:
I GO WALKING TOWARDS Mien Mo mountain in the moon illuminated August nigh=
t,
see gorgeous misty mountains rising the horizon and like saying to me "Yo=
u
dont have to torture your consciousness with endless thinking" so I sit i=
n
the sand and look inward=85 "Man is a busy little animal, a nice little a=
nimal,
his thoughts about everything dont amount to shit."
I sure don't want to overthink this. There are some absolutely tactile im=
ages
in Big Sur, and sometimes I think we overlook the quality of his prose in=
a
book that has so much autobiographical information. We get hung up on "th=
e
story behind the story," and fail to see the beauty.
I was thinking how incredible it was that he had the presence of mind to =
be
aware of what was happening to him, and to write it down so faithfully wh=
en
he was finished cracking up. To me, that is a measure of his inspired sou=
l as
a chosen one, a vessel through which such beauty flows as most ignorant f=
olks
can't really understand. He certainly believed he was inspired:
BUT MY WAKING UP would take place and then everything would vanish except
Heaven, which is God=97And that was why later in life after these rather
strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that fainting visi=
on
of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it=85 in the woods, I
conceived of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messenger =
from
Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking
society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong
track.
But he saw his weaknesses:
WITH ALL THIS IN MY BACKGROUND, now at the point of adulthood disaster of=
the
soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted into a
fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:
And maybe drugs were getting to him:
BUT THAT'S NOT the point, about pot paranoia, yet maybe it is at that=97I=
=92ve
long given it up because it bugs me anyway=97
Who knows? He was certainly disillusioned:
=85I USED TO STAND by the windows like this in my childhood and look out =
on
dusky streets and think how awful I was in this development everybody sai=
d
was supposed to be "my life" and "their lives." =96Not so much that I=92m=
a
drunkard that I feel guilty about but that others who occupy this plane o=
f
"life on earth" with me don=92t feel guilty at all=97
I'm happy to stipulate that jack's collapse didn't have anything to do wi=
th
LSD, but was some kind of inner look in midlife where he couldn't deal wi=
th
what he saw, and I add this tiny bit of theory: I think there were so few
peers in his world who could ever reach him, because he was on a plane pe=
ople
could witness but never visit. I know people like that. They just can't b=
e
reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family=
,
not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god=
or
creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection
gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:17:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: LSD INFO RESEARCH HISTORY
In-Reply-To: <199711240129.UAA21757@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Potato Chips were also an accidental discovery, jus thought youd like to
know...
On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
> FIRST OF ALL REMEMBER IN ALL HORROR STORIES YOU HEAR, SET AND SETTING PLAY A
> MAJOR ROLE IN SAFETY AND ENHANCEMENT OF THE PSYCHEDELIC EXPERIENCE.
> LSD 25 was an accidental discovery, yes, but by hoffman who was investigating
> all
> uses of ergot; not the ergot that contaminates rye see. many other strains.
the
> bicycle trip home is a classic and is to be found in many of the books listed
> below. many books below are out of print. the more scholarly ones were used in
> classes exploring the psychedelic experience approx 1966-73, at M.I.T. (one of
> co
> authors below was an M.I.T. faculty member.
>
> best sources of info relating to discovery and development of lsd as well as
> beats/sixties cross over:
> *jay stevens : Storming Heaven LSD and the american dream;
harper&row/perennial
> library, 1988
>
> best source of cia involement and results:
> martin a. lee&bruce shlain: ACID DREAMS the complete social history of LSD:
the
> CIA, the sixties and beyond;
> grove pressNY1985
>
> best source of knowledge of all naturally occuring psychedelics:
> PLANTS OF THE GODS / albert hofmann and schultes/healing arts press rochester
> vt1992
>
> LSD MY PROBLEM CHILD: Albert Hoffman
>
> other resources
> PSYCHEDELICS: the uses and implications of halluciongenic drugs/ bernard Asson
> and huphrey osmond:anchor books; double day anchor book and company 1970
> scholarly studies, both professors
>
> ALTERED STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS: ed. charles t. tart/double day anchor
> presscirca
> 1970 - scholarly research including lsd both professors
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:40:46 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Why am I prolonging this?
>I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes
>with the
>audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"
>I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.
you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
thought when i saw the ad too.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:43:42 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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You_Be Fine wrote:
> I know people like that. They just can't be
> reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family,
> not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god or
> creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection
> gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.
i think i understand what you're saying. but on a lot of JK threads
over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his
drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly
rational. i'm not saying that you're going this far here. but if JK is
one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical
mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c
that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:55:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: on the other hand (was Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> You_Be Fine wrote:
> > I know people like that. They just can't be
> > reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family,
> > not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god or
> > creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection
> > gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.
>
> i think i understand what you're saying. but on a lot of JK threads
> over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his
> drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly
> rational. i'm not saying that you're going this far here. but if JK is
> one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical
> mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c
> that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
<so now i'm talking to myself on the Listserve!!!>
(another typo BTW -- should have been "past" year not "same" year)
on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction
for it's own sake. in the event that one feels JK may have been
ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly
means this is the proper path for most of us. This is part of why i
think that reading his work as a means of avoiding self-destructiveness
(as suggested in the Vanity threads) can be very important.
but then again - what do i know ---- i've been threw more crackups than
Jack and definitely had my own self-destructive phase so perhaps i
should not be preachy --- if i was being preachy --
i'll go back to talking to myself in private now..... :)
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:03:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Good Blonde
In-Reply-To: <3478F7EE.3D0A@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I am using Good Blonde for an assigment which entails studying a group of
essays written by one author. The next part of the assigment requires that
I find an essay on the original essays. Does anyone know if there are ny
books out there that critique Kerouac's work, particularly those Good
Blonde? Thanks.
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:18:42 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> You_Be Fine wrote:
> > I know people like that. They just can't be
> > reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family,
> > not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god or
> > creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection
> > gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.
>
> i think i understand what you're saying. but on a lot of JK threads
> over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his
> drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly
> rational. i'm not saying that you're going this far here. but if JK is
> one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical
> mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c
> that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
I feel some anger at jack, it is probably the same anger when you see
someone choose "not to" It is a tiring business this life and i am
impatient and frustrated when a gift and vision is drowned in poison. I
believe that jack drowned his gift in alcohol and killed it. I don't
know why and i sure haven't walked in those shoes, maybe the same gift
that let him feel and see things as he did, dealt him the terror of his
life being out of control. Maybe some of the terror that is life burnt
him and so he drank himself to death. but still, i am angry that he
drank himself to death.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:24:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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RACE --- wrote:
<snip>
perhaps he went away b/c
> that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
Jack gave everything he had in his soul to give. He then was truly a "homeless"
man in that he was on this planet past his time. He wrote it all. With Thomas
Wolfe, they told the story of 20th Century America. They both then left as it
was
time to go. Jack just could not adjust to living without the fire in his gut.
He
couldn't make the change. That's cool. As Neil Young said, "Better to burn
out,
than to fade away."
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:27:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: What she said
Comments: To: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.solidsolutions.com>,
byrdmaniax <byrdmaniax@waxing-eloquent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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My eight year old daughter has not asked about Santa so she hasn't been
told. But, she is thinking about this Myth. So, tonight she says to
her mother. "You know those guys at the mall. They take the things
that you tell them, then they email them back to Santa. That way, Santa
knows what you want."
Now that is a good edition to the American myth. Email to Santa from
how many malls and how many messages. No wonder the backbone is being
overloaded! I mean, think of the flow around 9:00 in each time zone!
:-)
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:31:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
> I feel some anger at jack, it is probably the same anger when you see
> someone choose "not to" It is a tiring business this life and i am
> impatient and frustrated when a gift and vision is drowned in poison. I
> believe that jack drowned his gift in alcohol and killed it. I don't
> know why and i sure haven't walked in those shoes, maybe the same gift
> that let him feel and see things as he did, dealt him the terror of his
> life being out of control. Maybe some of the terror that is life burnt
> him and so he drank himself to death. but still, i am angry that he
> drank himself to death.
> patricia
Patricia
I did not mean to sanction what Jack did. My point was that once he knew that
his
purpose as a "writer" had been manifest, he could not adjust to a new role. I
think
it is tragic that he lacked the courage to do it. It's just that some choose to
leave once they "do it." I have always admired WSB's courage for hanging tough
no
matter what. I wish that Jack had more of that. But he didn't. So, it is
better
that he is gone. And he did give us all of his heart and soul, even if he
couldn't
do it in real life relationships.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:15:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
In a message dated 97-11-24 00:07:24 EST, Bentz wrote:
<< Jack just could not adjust to living without the fire in his gut.
He couldn't make the change. That's cool. >>
Now this I don't agree with. I think jack was so passive... the observer of
all the ones who HAD the fire in their guts. But I know he became more
passive and more timid as he grew older, as so many of us do. Sometimes it's
hard to look back on exploits of one's salad days and believe we really
survived it all.
jack had a disease (at least one). He suffered the progressive disease of
alcoholism. That takes a tremendous physical toll, and sometimes I think he
was just living on psychotic energy or something to get from day to day. I
don't know. I'm no expert. I can only speak from personal experience and
death certificates.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:27:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: big surLiSizeD without anger
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit
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In a message dated 97-11-24 00:08:13 EST, you write:
<<=20
on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction
for it's own sake. in the event that one feels JK may have been
ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly
means this is the proper path for most of us. >>
Yeah, the artist/poet myth that allows for unchecked drinking and
self-destructive behaviour is romantic and bogus and SICK. The
self-destruction that jack suffered was NOT deliberate, nor was it connec=
ted
to his gift... his "angel mind," if you will (hee hee hee)... He was an
artist IN SPITE of it, not BECAUSE of it. He was an alcoholic, an angel, =
a
vessel, a drunk. To be angry at him is understandable, at a distance from
whence we view it today. But if only we had seen him up close... I don't
think anyone would have wasted their anger on him. Again, in his words:
"WELL I DONT KNOW all those big theories about how everything should be
goddamit all I know it that I=92m a helpless hunk of horse manure looking=
in
your eye saying Help me"=97
Shit, why am I explaining? It's all there, in Big Sur, and it only takes =
a
Saturday to read it.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:23:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Slattey <08SLATTERY@CUA.EDU>
Subject: Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Unsubsribe beat list
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:58:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
In-Reply-To: <971123164607_1483088457@mrin86.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
AngelMindz@AOL.COM wrote:
>After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out couch
>at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my
>sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down the
>sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If you'll
>just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, I
>promise...."
Anyone remember that great country song of 40 or so years ago:
"I got tears in my ears from layin' on my back 'n crying my heart out over
you."
j grant
Small Press Publishers and Authors
Display Books Free At BookZen
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
http://www.bookzen.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:05:24 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
man have you hit that, except that i think he still was on his path and just
had to ride it out. he got what he needed to learn that time around, and
somehow i feel like maybe he got far enough along that he has no need to
revisit this plane.
JK was definitely more of the spiritual realm than of this one, IMHO, from his
early childhood.
ciao, sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of You_Be Fine
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 1997 7:02 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
In a message dated 97-11-23 21:13:42 EST, Kris wrote:
<< distributing large quantinities of this drug to "qualified" scientists
around the world).... anyhow, after that all hell broke loose.....
=20
So, back to JACK and ergot (and ergotism).... as someone said earlier,
>>
I didn't really intend to imply (or even hypothesize) that jack had gotte=
n
hold of some naturally occurring LSD (necessarily). When I read Big Sur o=
ver
again, I was simply struck by how similar his madness was to acid & mesca=
line
trips I took in the Sixties and finally, in 1970. Seems to me there must =
have
been a catlyst that set him off. I've heard people say it was the DTs, an=
d I
don't know too much about those, but I'm betting bummers, DTs and Jeffers=
on
Airplane flights all come out of the same place, and are activated throug=
h
the hypothalmus gland.
But I'd love to hear other accounts of experiences similar to that jack w=
rote
about in Big Sur, and know how they came about. I've seen two schizophren=
ic
breakdowns, but they didn't heal right up like jack's did, and the worst =
of
his delusions seemed to take place over a period of time that was less th=
an
24 hours long.
On the other hand, like Ferlinghetti (Monsanto) keeps telling jack in the
book, "Don't think too much... you think too much." And jack himself wrot=
e
about that:
I GO WALKING TOWARDS Mien Mo mountain in the moon illuminated August nigh=
t,
see gorgeous misty mountains rising the horizon and like saying to me "Yo=
u
dont have to torture your consciousness with endless thinking" so I sit i=
n
the sand and look inward=85 "Man is a busy little animal, a nice little a=
nimal,
his thoughts about everything dont amount to shit."
I sure don't want to overthink this. There are some absolutely tactile im=
ages
in Big Sur, and sometimes I think we overlook the quality of his prose in=
a
book that has so much autobiographical information. We get hung up on "th=
e
story behind the story," and fail to see the beauty.
I was thinking how incredible it was that he had the presence of mind to =
be
aware of what was happening to him, and to write it down so faithfully wh=
en
he was finished cracking up. To me, that is a measure of his inspired sou=
l as
a chosen one, a vessel through which such beauty flows as most ignorant f=
olks
can't really understand. He certainly believed he was inspired:
BUT MY WAKING UP would take place and then everything would vanish except
Heaven, which is God=97And that was why later in life after these rather
strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that fainting visi=
on
of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it=85 in the woods, I
conceived of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messenger =
from
Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking
society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong
track.
But he saw his weaknesses:
WITH ALL THIS IN MY BACKGROUND, now at the point of adulthood disaster of=
the
soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted into a
fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:
And maybe drugs were getting to him:
BUT THAT'S NOT the point, about pot paranoia, yet maybe it is at that=97I=
=92ve
long given it up because it bugs me anyway=97
Who knows? He was certainly disillusioned:
=85I USED TO STAND by the windows like this in my childhood and look out =
on
dusky streets and think how awful I was in this development everybody sai=
d
was supposed to be "my life" and "their lives." =96Not so much that I=92m=
a
drunkard that I feel guilty about but that others who occupy this plane o=
f
"life on earth" with me don=92t feel guilty at all=97
I'm happy to stipulate that jack's collapse didn't have anything to do wi=
th
LSD, but was some kind of inner look in midlife where he couldn't deal wi=
th
what he saw, and I add this tiny bit of theory: I think there were so few
peers in his world who could ever reach him, because he was on a plane pe=
ople
could witness but never visit. I know people like that. They just can't b=
e
reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family=
,
not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god=
or
creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection
gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:11:34 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
i was writing a post like this when this came up, Bentz. thanks. the soul
chooses its path for its own reasons. who are we to judge that? hell, i'm in
love with JK - sometimes reading him is like reading myself (only a thousand
times better). i was just a kid when he died and the only thing i really knew
about him was having seen him on the Steve Allen show when i was probably
about 5 or 7. i knew of him as a writer, but didn't 'meet' him until fairly
recently. the moment i 'met' him there was an instant soul connection for me.
sometimes the feet can't cling to this earth any more. he needed to go sooner
than he did. "Big Sur" makes it obvious. but his doubt kept him here and
the drink dulled the fear. i definitely say a huge YES to life. and as much
as i would have liked Jack to be around when i could have appreciated him and
would have been greedy to have more and more books from him, i would never
have wished for his continued misery. i'll always mourn him, but i'll never
be angry at him - he owed me nothing.
ciao, sherri
"there's a black cat caught in a high treetop (that's my soul up there)...
i'll always be queen of pain"
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R. Bentz Kirby
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 1997 8:24 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
RACE --- wrote:
<snip>
perhaps he went away b/c
> that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
Jack gave everything he had in his soul to give. He then was truly a
"homeless"
man in that he was on this planet past his time. He wrote it all. With
Thomas
Wolfe, they told the story of 20th Century America. They both then left as it
was
time to go. Jack just could not adjust to living without the fire in his gut.
He
couldn't make the change. That's cool. As Neil Young said, "Better to burn
out,
than to fade away."
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:20:26 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: LSD INFO RESEARCH HISTORY
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971123221643.32078B-100000@is8.nyu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Potato Chips were also an accidental discovery, jus thought youd like to
>know...
So were Post It notes, Ivory (it floats) bar soap, and flubber.
Small Press Publishers and Authors
Display Books Free At BookZen
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
http://www.bookzen.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:40:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In-Reply-To: <msg1274808.thr-3c78858a.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
> thought when i saw the ad too.
Argh. I swear, I'm really sorry to keep bothering people with this, but
its Joyce Johnson, not Edie Parker.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:55:37 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: oops typo Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM
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hi dave: in vanity of duluoz, he talks of developing phlebitis from too many
benzedrine inhalers, but i don't know if this stopped his use
RACE --- wrote:
> RACE --- wrote:
> >
> > does someone know more about the changes in Kerouac's chemical use in
> > the past ten years or so? did he move strictly to alcohol? when did he
> > slow on stimulants? are there accounts of what his attitude towards
> > stimulants were in the later years?
> >
> > wondering in kansas. soon to head for turkey in Denver.
> >
> > david rhaesa
> > salina, Kansas
>
> i meant to say "last" ten years, not "past" ten years. though if
> anybody on the list has heard from Jack in the past ten years concerning
> chemicals or other matters i'd love to hear that too!!!!!
>
> david
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:57:47 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> hi dave: in vanity of duluoz, he talks of developing phlebitis from too many
> benzedrine inhalers, but i don't know if this stopped his use
>
oh yeah - i forgot about the phlebitis factor.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:06:53 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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i agree, david- and i also believe it was the disconnection that alcoholism
brought on. JK was JK and he wrote and left us so much to read understand enjoy
and cry about in the autobiographical explorations of self and friends and
search
for spirituality.
i don't feel ripped off, i do feel sorrowful at such an untimely and horrible
death.
mc
RACE --- wrote:
> i think i understand what you're saying. but on a lot of JK threads
> over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his
> drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly
> rational. i'm not saying that you're going this far here. but if JK is
> one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical
> mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c
> that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:09:45 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: on the other hand (was Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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RACE --- wrote:
> on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction
> for it's own sake. in the event that one feels JK may have been
> ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly
> means this is the proper path for most of us. This is part of why i
> think that reading his work as a means of avoiding self-destructiveness
> (as suggested in the Vanity threads) can be very important.
>
> but then again - what do i know ---- i've been threw more crackups than
> Jack and definitely had my own self-destructive phase so perhaps i
> should not be preachy --- if i was being preachy --
>
> i'll go back to talking to myself in private now..... :)
>
> david
nah dave you were talking to me, with my own share of crackups, never have i
suggested (even with art flowing out after the fact) that the way to
understanding
lies in a psychic meltdown.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:16:19 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without anger
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> i've always called it the dylan thomas syndrome, falling dead off his
> barstool and all who have emulated the sickness as a way to let out or
> discover creativity.
mc
>
>
> Yeah, the artist/poet myth that allows for unchecked drinking and
> self-destructive behaviour is romantic and bogus and SICK. The
> self-destruction that jack suffered was NOT deliberate, nor was it conn=
ected
> to his gift... his "angel mind," if you will (hee hee hee)... He was an
> artist IN SPITE of it, not BECAUSE of it. He was an alcoholic, an angel=
, a
> vessel, a drunk. To be angry at him is understandable, at a distance fr=
om
> whence we view it today. But if only we had seen him up close... I don'=
t
> think anyone would have wasted their anger on him. Again, in his words:
> "WELL I DONT KNOW all those big theories about how everything should be
> goddamit all I know it that I=92m a helpless hunk of horse manure looki=
ng in
> your eye saying Help me"=97
>
> Shit, why am I explaining? It's all there, in Big Sur, and it only take=
s a
> Saturday to read it.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:02:09 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: jo grant
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sorry all, but i need to get in touch with you jo, my attempts to
contact you back channel keep bouncing back
thanks
marie c
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:18:17 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
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Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
> I am using Good Blonde for an assigment which entails studying a group of
> essays written by one author. The next part of the assigment requires that
> I find an essay on the original essays. Does anyone know if there are ny
> books out there that critique Kerouac's work, particularly those Good
> Blonde? Thanks.
> ~Nancy
>
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
In reading through all the titles of the reviews and whatnot at
<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Biblio/KerouacBiblio.html> there wasn't
anything that seemed explicitly devoted to GB. Perhaps the maintainer
of that site will have further ideas.
good luck.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:17:51 -0600
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From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
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How about them toad-suckers
Ain't they sappy?
Sucking them bog frogs
Sure makes 'em happy...
Mason Williams (a man well ahead of his time)
----------
> From: Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
> Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 6:36 PM
>
> Hey Beat-list have any of you tried Toad Venom?
>
> T.V.
> "I've got a new drug."
> Fritz has a new drug.
> "Toad venom wanna smoke some?"
> "What does it do?"
> "Mild high, acid, hash, coke buzz."
> "Totally toadular."
> Nee deep, Nee deep.
> We drive to the beach,
> Climb down cliffs.
> Fritz loads the pipe,
> Flaky wax substance.
> Take a hit,
> Rolling, ground.
> Kids on the cliff shout,
> "Hey man, smoke that bud up here dude."
> Fritz takes a hit. Now we are both rolling,
> I yell back to them,
> "TOAD VENOM!!"
> Frog high, web brain.
> Buddha bug tongue buzz.
> Old pond splashes in mind.
> Close eyes.
> Tune to insects,
> Scope, sight, snatch.
> Toad Mind, Toad Soul, Wart Love!!
> Hallucinaphibians in desert,
> Arizona evenings, web foot summer.
> Glands in the backs of their necks,
> defense against being bit.
> Squeeze, pop, juicy, squirt,
> On Pyrex dish.
> Let it dry over night.
> Scrape, scrape.
> Fly paper lily pad, LEAP!
> Nee deep, Nee deep, Nee Deep.
>
> Yrs,
> Gary Mex Glazner
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:00:09 -0800
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> I did not mean to sanction what Jack did. My point was that once he
> knew that
> his
> purpose as a "writer" had been manifest, he could not adjust to a new
> role. I
> think
> it is tragic that he lacked the courage to do it. It's just that some
> choose to
> leave once they "do it." I have always admired WSB's courage for
> hanging tough
> no
> matter what. I wish that Jack had more of that. But he didn't. So,
> it is
> better
> that he is gone. And he did give us all of his heart and soul, even if
> he
> couldn't
> do it in real life relationships.
Bentz,
It still seems to me that what you are saying with the ideas of "better
to burn than fade away," and "his purpose as a writer had been manifest"
is awfully close to fatalism, that we are all given certain paths in life
and there's nothing we can do to change them. I agree with Patricia that
"Jack drowned his gift in alcholism and killed it." I don't feel
particularly angry about that but I do feel very sad about that. Even if
you believe alcoholism is a disease, it is a disease with a choice. It's
not like cancer. You can choose not to drink. It brings us back to the
whole erroneous idea that the nature of the artist is to suffer and burn
out in self-destructiveness. What a wonderful excuse that is to think
you are fated to be self-destructive. The woman in Big Sur tries
continually to help Jack but he continues to choose the path he is on,
which is a slow suicide. But when Billie runs out into the ocean, for a
moment, Jack thinks she is going to commit suicide, and writes, "I
suddenly wonder if she's going to horrify the heavens and me too with a
sudden suicide walk into those awful undertows..." The thought shocked
him, it horrified him, he didn't think, it's fate, it's OK for her to
choose death now. Big Sur is a record of a human being's own
self-destruction. And if anyone reads it with the attitude that, "yes
Jack was meant to be this way, he was in too much pain to live on earth,
it was good he died young, then it is also sending a message to whole new
generations of writers and other humans that self-destruction is OK. So
maybe then after writing this I do agree with Patricia's anger; it's
true, we can never walk in anyone else's shoes but we should be angry
when any person's gift is lost to the world through self-destruction.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:05:25 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
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>Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>>
>> I am using Good Blonde for an assigment which entails studying a group of
>> essays written by one author. The next part of the assigment requires that
>> I find an essay on the original essays. Does anyone know if there are ny
>> books out there that critique Kerouac's work, particularly those Good
>> Blonde? Thanks.
>> ~Nancy
Good Blonde is a recent compilation of assorted pieces by kerouac. As such
you won't find anything about this book but might find some things about
the individual pieces.
As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in The
Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this
in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones. He wrote an introductory essay to
the stories, you could look there. But you will need a university library
to find it I'll bet.
The Moderns might help for what you are trying to do.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:26:16 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
In a message dated 97-11-24 11:41:01 EST, DC wrote:
<< I agree with Patricia that
"Jack drowned his gift in alcholism and killed it." I don't feel
particularly angry about that but I do feel very sad about that. Even if
you believe alcoholism is a disease, it is a disease with a choice. It's
not like cancer. You can choose not to drink. It brings us back to the
whole erroneous idea that the nature of the artist is to suffer and burn
out in self-destructiveness. What a wonderful excuse that is to think
you are fated to be self-destructive. The woman in Big Sur tries
continually to help Jack but he continues to choose the path he is on,
which is a slow suicide. >>
Good, bad or indifferent, jack always drank and jack always wrote. He didn't
"drown his gift in alcoholism." All the while he was drinking, taking speed,
and smoking dope, he was writing the beautiful words we all read today, but
not because of the drinking, as I said before; IN SPITE OF IT.
If you think alcoholism is any less fatal or imprisoning than cancer, I'd say
you should do a little research on the subject. It's a complicated disease,
and from the outside, it looks like drinkers SHOULD be able to choose, should
be able to stop. But if they could, they would. In the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous, 1939, Bill W. (founder of AA) wrote:
RARELY HAVE WE SEEN A PERSON FAIL who hs thoroughly followed our path. Those
who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give
themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are
constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such
unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to be born that way.
He goes on to say, "Remember that we deal with alcohol--cunning, baffling,
powerful! Without help it is too much for us." Alcoholics Anonymous, the most
recommended group in the world for recovering from alcoholism, still has a
less than 10% success rate. That's not because it isn't a good program. It's
because alcoholism is a disease that grabs one by the soul, mind and body,
all at once, and releasing its grip is, for most of us, impossible.
As for Billie, man, there is one sick puppy. That woman is despicable, and
she's not "helping" jack at all in Big Sur. She's only interested in what she
can get from him. She's in love with Neal, and wants to use jack to get to
Neal. In jack's mind, he sees the conspiracy:
CAN IT BE it was all arranged by Dave Wain via Cody that I would meet Billie
and be driven mad and now they've got me alone in the woods and they are
going to give me final poisons tonight that will utterly remove all my
control so that in the morning I'll have to go to a hospital forever and
never write another line?--Dave Wain is jealous because I wrote 10
novels?--Billie has been assigned by Cody to get me to marry her so he'll get
all my money?
Here's jack with this beautiful blonde who wants to fuck all the time, but
continually lays trips on him about how she has nothing to live for and is
going to kill herself. Not only is she going to kill herself, but she's going
to take her 4-year-old son, Elliot, out with her. And well she should, since
she's messed him up beyond belief, encouraging the child to watch her and her
lovers fucking and to ask questions about it, but then when he asks too many
questions, she flips out, tells the kid she's going to beat him, beats him,
and then tells him it's his fault she's beating him and because she feels so
bad about beating him, she has to kill herself. This, to a four-year-old. I
say, no fucking wonder jack flipped out with Billie.
Near the end, when Billie digs an Elliot-sized grave, that little wigged-out
child is hysterical, screaming, "grabs the shovel and refuses [to] go near
the hole," Billie plays a sadistic game with Elliot and jack, and when jack
confronts her about it: "With the same quiet steady smile Billie says, 'Oh
you're so fucking neurotic!'"
This woman is more insane than jack, more neurotic and twisted. As I was
reading Big Sur this time, I was wondering what ever happened to her son,
who'd be 40 or 41 today. He was one of the several children jack mentions in
Big Sur, including Michael McClure's "pretty little angel daughter... coming
in to hand me an extremely tiny flower," and the 8, 9 and 10 year old girls
the pedophile Perry Yturbide says have "the most beautiful cans in town," to
which jack thinks, "I realize he's dangerously insane," as he kidnaps the
10-year-old and takes her off to molest her. But Billie, when jack tells her
this, only says, "That's the way he is, be sure to dig him"--
No, that whole scene contributed to his crack-up at Big Sur, not just his own
alcoholism (which lowered his defenses) but the users and misfits and ghouls
that somehow attached themselves to jack, comprising that Beatnik scene.
Read the book and maybe you'll see. No one can save anyone from anything, and
no one can ruin anyone's life. But when someone is sick, as jack was then,
entering the last stages of alcoholism with weeks-long binges, it's very easy
to prey upon that person's weakness, to take advantage of him.
He didn't choose to be an alcoholic, and he didn't have the strength or
self-honesty to take the cure. He's just like a billion other alcoholics. If
they could choose another way to be, they would.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:28:17 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
MIME-Version: 1.0
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BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:
>> you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
>> thought when i saw the ad too.
>Argh. I swear, I'm really sorry to keep bothering people with this, but
>its Joyce Johnson, not Edie Parker.
So the caption is wrong then? hmmm.. wonder if the folks who
compiled it know that?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:03:16 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
Comments: To: Anne <gbarker@thegrid.net>
In-Reply-To: <34764033.BBD9A82F@thegrid.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Yeah, my own version of that has always been, "Sure, I believe in God--I
just have no idea what that means."
These days I lean toward my own understanding of Buddhism.
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark.
The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is
really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:06:58 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <347706F7.472D@midusa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Well, it's gotta be Marshall McLuhan, right? But I don't know which book.
I'd guess UNDERSTANDING MEDIA, his most famous--but there again, even
though I've read it, I don't recognize which part J.K. might be thinking
of...hrmmma....
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark.
The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is
really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:50:49 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles
horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own
imagination?
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
>In a message dated 97-11-24 11:41:01 EST, DC wrote:
>
><< I agree with Patricia that
> "Jack drowned his gift in alcholism and killed it." I don't feel
> particularly angry about that but I do feel very sad about that. Even if
> you believe alcoholism is a disease, it is a disease with a choice. It's
> not like cancer. You can choose not to drink. It brings us back to the
> whole erroneous idea that the nature of the artist is to suffer and burn
> out in self-destructiveness. What a wonderful excuse that is to think
> you are fated to be self-destructive. The woman in Big Sur tries
> continually to help Jack but he continues to choose the path he is on,
> which is a slow suicide. >>
>
>Good, bad or indifferent, jack always drank and jack always wrote. He
didn't
>"drown his gift in alcoholism." All the while he was drinking, taking
speed,
>and smoking dope, he was writing the beautiful words we all read today, but
>not because of the drinking, as I said before; IN SPITE OF IT.
>
>If you think alcoholism is any less fatal or imprisoning than cancer, I'd
say
>you should do a little research on the subject. It's a complicated disease,
>and from the outside, it looks like drinkers SHOULD be able to choose,
should
>be able to stop. But if they could, they would. In the Big Book of
Alcoholics
>Anonymous, 1939, Bill W. (founder of AA) wrote:
>RARELY HAVE WE SEEN A PERSON FAIL who hs thoroughly followed our path.
Those
>who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give
>themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are
>constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such
>unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to be born that way.
>
>He goes on to say, "Remember that we deal with alcohol--cunning, baffling,
>powerful! Without help it is too much for us." Alcoholics Anonymous, the
most
>recommended group in the world for recovering from alcoholism, still has a
>less than 10% success rate. That's not because it isn't a good program.
It's
>because alcoholism is a disease that grabs one by the soul, mind and body,
>all at once, and releasing its grip is, for most of us, impossible.
>
>As for Billie, man, there is one sick puppy. That woman is despicable, and
>she's not "helping" jack at all in Big Sur. She's only interested in what
she
>can get from him. She's in love with Neal, and wants to use jack to get to
>Neal. In jack's mind, he sees the conspiracy:
>CAN IT BE it was all arranged by Dave Wain via Cody that I would meet
Billie
>and be driven mad and now they've got me alone in the woods and they are
>going to give me final poisons tonight that will utterly remove all my
>control so that in the morning I'll have to go to a hospital forever and
>never write another line?--Dave Wain is jealous because I wrote 10
>novels?--Billie has been assigned by Cody to get me to marry her so he'll
get
>all my money?
>
>Here's jack with this beautiful blonde who wants to fuck all the time, but
>continually lays trips on him about how she has nothing to live for and is
>going to kill herself. Not only is she going to kill herself, but she's
going
>to take her 4-year-old son, Elliot, out with her. And well she should,
since
>she's messed him up beyond belief, encouraging the child to watch her and
her
>lovers fucking and to ask questions about it, but then when he asks too
many
>questions, she flips out, tells the kid she's going to beat him, beats him,
>and then tells him it's his fault she's beating him and because she feels
so
>bad about beating him, she has to kill herself. This, to a four-year-old. I
>say, no fucking wonder jack flipped out with Billie.
>
>Near the end, when Billie digs an Elliot-sized grave, that little
wigged-out
>child is hysterical, screaming, "grabs the shovel and refuses [to] go near
>the hole," Billie plays a sadistic game with Elliot and jack, and when jack
>confronts her about it: "With the same quiet steady smile Billie says, 'Oh
>you're so fucking neurotic!'"
>
>This woman is more insane than jack, more neurotic and twisted. As I was
>reading Big Sur this time, I was wondering what ever happened to her son,
>who'd be 40 or 41 today. He was one of the several children jack mentions
in
>Big Sur, including Michael McClure's "pretty little angel daughter...
coming
>in to hand me an extremely tiny flower," and the 8, 9 and 10 year old girls
>the pedophile Perry Yturbide says have "the most beautiful cans in town,"
to
>which jack thinks, "I realize he's dangerously insane," as he kidnaps the
>10-year-old and takes her off to molest her. But Billie, when jack tells
her
>this, only says, "That's the way he is, be sure to dig him"--
>
>No, that whole scene contributed to his crack-up at Big Sur, not just his
own
>alcoholism (which lowered his defenses) but the users and misfits and
ghouls
>that somehow attached themselves to jack, comprising that Beatnik scene.
>
>Read the book and maybe you'll see. No one can save anyone from anything,
and
>no one can ruin anyone's life. But when someone is sick, as jack was then,
>entering the last stages of alcoholism with weeks-long binges, it's very
easy
>to prey upon that person's weakness, to take advantage of him.
>
>He didn't choose to be an alcoholic, and he didn't have the strength or
>self-honesty to take the cure. He's just like a billion other alcoholics.
If
>they could choose another way to be, they would.
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:03:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
Comments: To: letabor@cruzio.com
In a message dated 97-11-24 13:58:57 EST, leon asked:
<<
You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles
horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own
imagination?
leon
>>
If you're saying this is a fictionalized account, that would be the first
time I ever heard anyone say that.
Is that what you think?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:37:42 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Timothy Gallaher wrote:
> As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
The
> Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this
> in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones. He wrote an introductory essay
to
> the stories, you could look there. But you will need a university
library
> to find it I'll bet.
"city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde." Is "New York Scenes" the piece
that appears in "GB" as "Manhattan Sketches"?
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:52:42 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
MIME-Version: 1.0
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My personal favorite summing up of a life philosophy that I can accept is
from His Holiness the Pope of Straight Poop, Frank Zappa:
Do what you wanna
Do what you will
Just don't mess up
Your neighbor's thrill
And when you pay the bill
Kindly leave a little tip
To help the next poor sucker
On his one-way trip
"The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing" (from "You Are What You Is")
Just my own two existential cents,
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:13:37 -0800
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From: tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Herbert Huncke
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I am going to the libary today. I will find Hebert Huncke's story. He
wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story
tellers there ever was. Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for
sex and companionship.
Is Hebert Huncke still alive?
Tristan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:28:36 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:37 PM 11/24/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Timothy Gallaher wrote:
>
>> As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
>The
>> Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this
>> in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones. He wrote an introductory essay
>to
>> the stories, you could look there. But you will need a university
>library
>> to find it I'll bet.
>
>"city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde." Is "New York Scenes" the piece
>that appears in "GB" as "Manhattan Sketches"?
>
>Jym
>
>
Yes, Manhattan Sketches is what I erroneously called New York Scenes (I
didn't remember the name) but cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde I am fairly sure.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:08:01 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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-----Original Message-----
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
>In a message dated 97-11-24 13:58:57 EST, leon asked:
>
><<
> You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles
> horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own
> imagination?
>
> leon
>
> >>
>If you're saying this is a fictionalized account, that would be the first
>time I ever heard anyone say that.
>
>Is that what you think?
>.-
I don't expect to learn the full truth of what went down there. Others may
know, I do not know. I have seen people doing crazy and acting it out on
their children, that is not impossible to have happened.
I have never myself witnessed chidren of that age observing adults sexual
performance, but I do know it is a fact of ordinary life in many poor
communities where children share the living space, sometimes even bed, with
their parents.
I do know there was experimentaion going on in Big Sur a few years later in
the sixties. I remeber in particular one couple who moved from the North
Beach to Big Sur. The man was a former teacher who ran the Cellar where his
wife was a waitress. This was in the end of the fifties. He was no wild
maniac, but a very conscientious nice guy, although by 1965 he did succumb
to heroin. Before that he was telling me how he thought their kids blossomed
under the freedom and honest exposure to natural phenomena as they occured.
I was of course very interested and for a couple of years followed his
stories about how wonderfully the kids were developing, including their
reactions to what they were observing. To repeat, I have no personal first
hand knowledge about children observing adult sexual activity, although when
we lived in the Flower Farm community, my daughter had her own bed in our
one room. She was three years old, but I can tell you that she is a
wonderful person with no apparent ill effects. I am prepared to believe
that it may not necessarily be as much of a horror movie to them as is
suggested in the post. I can expect a helplessly hysterical out of control
mother to act out crazily with her child. It happens tragically a lot more
than is publicly acknowledged.
What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that populated
his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the
people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he
wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything
that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:35:49 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Alcock, Denis" <alcockd@BESTWESTERN.COM>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
Huncke died about a few years ago. There is an excellent documentary
called 'Huncke and Me', which is a candid interview with Huncke shortly
before his death.
Denis Alcock
> ----------
> From: tristan saldana[SMTP:hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU]
> Reply To: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 1997 1:13 PM
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Herbert Huncke
>
> I am going to the libary today. I will find Hebert Huncke's story.
> He
> wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story
> tellers there ever was. Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for
> sex and companionship.
>
> Is Hebert Huncke still alive?
>
> Tristan
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:54:48 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.971124120646.8908A-100000@csun1.csun.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>I am going to the libary today. I will find Hebert Huncke's story. He
>wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story
>tellers there ever was. Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for
>sex and companionship.
>
>Is Hebert Huncke still alive?
>
>Tristan
Hunke is dead. See:
http://www.bookzen.com/books/068815266X_b.html
for details on The Herbert Hunke Reader, Ben Schafer, Editor.
In the near future Ben will be discussing The Herbert Hunke Reader on radio
statin WORT-FM, Madison, WI. There will be others who knew HH joining in
the conversation. Hope to get it transcribed so it can be posted to the
Beat List.
j grant
Small Press Publishers and Authors
Display Books Free At BookZen
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
http://www.bookzen.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:46:10 -0700
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From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.971124120646.8908A-100000@csun1.csun.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
tristan
as far as i know huncke died in 1996 ( i could be wrong abt the date,
but he is quite dead) i suggest that you pick up a copy of _the herbert
Huncke reader_ which is quite excellent, containing unpublished work and
excerpts from all his other books, its available from Waterrow books
(www.waterrowbooks.com)
but - yep definately read this book
yrs
derek
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, tristan saldana wrote:
> I am going to the libary today. I will find Hebert Huncke's story. He
> wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story
> tellers there ever was. Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for
> sex and companionship.
>
> Is Hebert Huncke still alive?
>
> Tristan
>
****************************
Derek beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#5-933 3rd ave nw
calgary, alberta, canada, t2n0j7
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition"
-Jack Kerouac
*****************
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:08:30 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
Comments: To: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199711241953.NAA02242@core0.mx.execpc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
citycitycity IS in "Good Blonde"--I'm looking at it right now...
Don
The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is
really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:47:23 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
In-Reply-To: <E1D34B8573D0D0119F350000F863286544B5C1@phxopsexc00.bestwestern.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Huncke died about a few years ago. There is an excellent documentary
> called 'Huncke and Me', which is a candid interview with Huncke shortly
> before his death.
Huh? Haven't heard about this one. Any more info on it or any of you
captialistic literary peddlers can tell me a little about this?
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:12:50 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971124134358.63502A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Thanks very much for the info. I am very sad to hear that Huncke's gone.
He and Corso are my favorites.
Tristan
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
> tristan
> as far as i know huncke died in 1996 ( i could be wrong abt the date,
> but he is quite dead) i suggest that you pick up a copy of _the herbert
> Huncke reader_ which is quite excellent, containing unpublished work and
> excerpts from all his other books, its available from Waterrow books
> (www.waterrowbooks.com)
> but - yep definately read this book
> yrs
> derek
> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, tristan saldana wrote:
> > I am going to the libary today. I will find Hebert Huncke's story. He
> > wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story
> > tellers there ever was. Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for
> > sex and companionship.
> >
> > Is Hebert Huncke still alive?
> >
> > Tristan
> >
>
> ****************************
> Derek beaulieu
> House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
> #5-933 3rd ave nw
> calgary, alberta, canada, t2n0j7
> "remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition"
> -Jack Kerouac
> *****************
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
In-Reply-To: <199711241953.NAA02242@core0.mx.execpc.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:
> Timothy Gallaher wrote:
> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
>
> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."
There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out
there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged
edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science
fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:53:06 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
Comments: To: Sara Straw <saras@sisna.com>
In-Reply-To: <34771F89.58FB@sisna.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Sara Straw wrote:
> > As Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.
> > Cordially,
> > Mike Skau
>
> I give up, what does THAT mean?
> It sounds real cute, but doesn't compute.
> s
>
Abbie explained that isms (capitalism, communism, socialism--Judaism,
Catholicism, Buddhism, etc.)--that is, all artificial organizations and
groups with set beliefs, principles, etc.--belong to the past (wasms). He
felt that we had to leave all that behind because it infringed on the
importance of individual rights (see _The Best of Abbie Hoffman_, pp.
376-77, where he spells it _wasisms_; when I heard him speak at Naropa
Institute years ago, he pronounced it _wasms_).
Hope this helps.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:54:24 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
Date: 97-11-24 17:54:57 EST
From: AngelMindz
To: letabor@cruzio.com
In a message dated 97-11-24 15:37:55 EST, you write:
<< I can expect a helplessly hysterical out of control mother to act ou=
t
crazily with her child. It happens tragically a lot more than is publicly
acknowledged.>>
I don't want to get off on a tangent about sexual abuse of children, beca=
use
that's a very complicated subject that deserves its own thread on another
list. But somehow your comment reminded me of this anecdote about Dorothy
Parker (who, by the way, wrote a scathing review of The Subterraneans whe=
n it
came out!) and a mother who seemed quite in control and not the least
hysterical:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
---=20
Lilly (from Peter Fiebleman=92s biography of Lillian Hellman)
The story Lillian had asked me (P. F.) to tell that day was short. I=
t
happened one evening in Los Angeles when I walked over to have a drink wi=
th
Dorothy (Parker). A friend of Dorothy=92s, a well-known actress living in=
the
neighborhood, had just come to visit with her little boy, who was six.
The actress kept her son in a vise-like grip on her lap and played w=
ith
him while she talked. She could not let the child alone; her hands wander=
ed
over his mouth and face and chest and crotch and legs and feet and toes a=
nd
then started all over again, while the child squirmed and wriggled to get=
off
her lap. At last he slipped out of his mother=92s grip, jumped to the flo=
or and
ran into the next room to be alone and play.
"I KNOW I=92m prejudiced, " the actress said, smiling, "after all, h=
e=92s
only six=85but he is a beautiful little boy, isn=92t he?"
"Yes, he is," Dorothy said. "Strange=85he never married."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
------------
<< What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that
populated
his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by t=
he
people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he
wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everyt=
hing
that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.>>
Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feel=
s
like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to
believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's book=
s?=20
I don't see jack walking around possessed by paranoid delusions on a dail=
y
basis. He was familiar with visions; he had them all his life. His writin=
g
style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,
faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.
The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active
participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.
Big Sur reads like life, and I have no reason to question any parts of it=
, or
to seek redemption for the characters who, through stupidity, ignorance, =
or
emotional illness, were a part of his descent into madness.
Too bad Lew Welch isn't on the list to tell us what he saw there.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:15:36 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
In-Reply-To: <199711241953.NAA02242@core0.mx.execpc.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Actually, cityCityCITY is in my copy of Good Blonde...
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:
> Timothy Gallaher wrote:
>
> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
> The
> > Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this
> > in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones. He wrote an introductory essay
> to
> > the stories, you could look there. But you will need a university
> library
> > to find it I'll bet.
>
> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde." Is "New York Scenes" the piece
> that appears in "GB" as "Manhattan Sketches"?
>
> Jym
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:12:37 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without anger
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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You_Be Fine wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-11-24 00:08:13 EST, you write:
>
> <<
> on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction
> for it's own sake. in the event that one feels JK may have been
> ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly
> means this is the proper path for most of us. >>
>
> Yeah, the artist/poet myth that allows for unchecked drinking and
> self-destructive behaviour is romantic and bogus and SICK. The
> self-destruction that jack suffered was NOT deliberate, nor was it connected
> to his gift... his "angel mind," if you will (hee hee hee)... He was an
> artist IN SPITE of it, not BECAUSE of it. He was an alcoholic, an angel, a
> vessel, a drunk.
i think the evidence on what you're suggesting here -- especially given
the capitalization -- is far from settled yet. I'm currently reading a
wonderful study titled Touched with Fire: Manic Depressive Illness and
the Artistic Temperament. What I've gleaned so far is that quite a lot
of study is currently moving concerning the connections of chemistry and
creativity -- and whether the correlation is one of "because" or "in
spite of". And it seems to me that though the author may be leaning
towards an in spite of notion (with the qualifier that medical treatment
of the illness occurs), it seems to me so far that the evidence is far
from showing that point. The depth of experience chronicled by Jack is
connected to his gift as a writer for certain. Not just anyone can
chronicle such experiences. But the experiencing of these things in the
first place involves a different than average connection with the world
and perceptions.
The myth you suggest as SICK is i would agree SICK when it is the basis
for people trying to imitate self-destructions in hope of gaining the
writing gift. But perhaps it is also SICK to believe that all social
and scientific knowledge of these notions was determined pre-1940. Both
myths have force in society and neither one alone is the answer. In the
book you refer to in another post, it suggests the wording that more
will be revealed. In the case of connections between brain chemistry
and creativity and the nature of these correlations it seems this is
definitely the case -- the jury is certainly out.
david rhaesa
TIAA P&D Disabled
Salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:17:07 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
Comments: To: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <msg1274808.thr-3c78858a.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
> >Why am I prolonging this?
> >I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes
> >with the
> >audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"
> >I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.
>
> you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
> thought when i saw the ad too.
>
If you look at the photos carefully, you'll see that Jack's got his chin
lifted more in one of them than in the other. In addition, that is not
Edie in the background, despite what the text says for the photo in _The
Jack Kerouac Collection_ booklet (p. 20): it's Joyce Johnson, and the same
photo was used on the cover of her _Minor Characters_ and for the poster
for the _Kerouac_ film. Perhaps this explains why the women could be
airbrushed from the photos; apparently they are so interchangeable that
their identities are not important (said with tongue in cheek).
Mike Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:21:20 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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You are suggesting that you have no reason to doubt Jack's ability to see
things as they were at the time:
<<SNIP>>
>His writing
>style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,
>faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.
>The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active
>participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.
Does this excerpt fit your faith in Jack's ability to see things as they
were at the time? Is this what you bellieve was Jack's state of mind always
"on a daily basis" when he wrote other things?
<<SNIP>>
>CAN IT BE it was all arranged by Dave Wain via Cody that I would meet
Billie
>and be driven mad and now they've got me alone in the woods and they are
>going to give me final poisons tonight that will utterly remove all my
>control so that in the morning I'll have to go to a hospital forever and
>never write another line?--Dave Wain is jealous because I wrote 10
>novels?--Billie has been assigned by Cody to get me to marry her so he'll
get
>all my money?
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 3:02 PM
Subject: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
Date: 97-11-24 17:54:57 EST
From: AngelMindz
To: letabor@cruzio.com
In a message dated 97-11-24 15:37:55 EST, you write:
<< I can expect a helplessly hysterical out of control mother to act out
crazily with her child. It happens tragically a lot more than is publicly
acknowledged.>>
I don't want to get off on a tangent about sexual abuse of children, because
that's a very complicated subject that deserves its own thread on another
list. But somehow your comment reminded me of this anecdote about Dorothy
Parker (who, by the way, wrote a scathing review of The Subterraneans when
it
came out!) and a mother who seemed quite in control and not the least
hysterical:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
---
Lilly (from Peter Fieblemans biography of Lillian Hellman)
The story Lillian had asked me (P. F.) to tell that day was short. It
happened one evening in Los Angeles when I walked over to have a drink with
Dorothy (Parker). A friend of Dorothys, a well-known actress living in the
neighborhood, had just come to visit with her little boy, who was six.
The actress kept her son in a vise-like grip on her lap and played with
him while she talked. She could not let the child alone; her hands wandered
over his mouth and face and chest and crotch and legs and feet and toes and
then started all over again, while the child squirmed and wriggled to get
off
her lap. At last he slipped out of his mothers grip, jumped to the floor
and
ran into the next room to be alone and play.
"I KNOW Im prejudiced, " the actress said, smiling, "after all, hes
only sixbut he is a beautiful little boy, isnt he?"
"Yes, he is," Dorothy said. "Strangehe never married."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
------------
<< What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that
populated
his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the
people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he
wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything
that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.>>
Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feels
like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to
believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's books?
I don't see jack walking around possessed by paranoid delusions on a daily
basis. He was familiar with visions; he had them all his life. His writing
style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,
faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.
The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active
participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.
Big Sur reads like life, and I have no reason to question any parts of it,
or
to seek redemption for the characters who, through stupidity, ignorance, or
emotional illness, were a part of his descent into madness.
Too bad Lew Welch isn't on the list to tell us what he saw there.
.-
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:20:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Abbie explained that isms (capitalism, communism, socialism--Judaism,
>Catholicism, Buddhism, etc.)--that is, all artificial organizations and
>groups with set beliefs, principles, etc.--belong to the past (wasms).
also, the very fact that ism institutions establish rigid "party
platforms" forces them to become outdated from the moment they're
formed, because they are resistant to change, also, my own slant here,
something conceived in an instant in time to become an ism is dated to
that time, and is outdated thereafter because of change. one of the
reasons that the many major religions that remain alive today are doing
so is because they've become flexible enough to adapt to change a morph
as necessary.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:53:06 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600 from
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600 Jeff Taylor said:
>On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:
>
>> Timothy Gallaher wrote:
>> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
>>
>> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."
>
>There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out
>there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged
>edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science
>fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."
>
>*******
>Jeff Taylor
>taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
>*******
Thanks for noting this interesting bibliographical development. Wonder how it
came about?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:00:27 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Leon Tabory wrote:
>
> >In a message dated 97-11-24 13:58:57 EST, leon asked:
> >
> ><<
> > You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles
> > horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own
> > imagination?
> >
> > leon
> >
> > >>
> >If you're saying this is a fictionalized account, that would be the first
> >time I ever heard anyone say that.
> >
> >Is that what you think?
> >.-
> I don't expect to learn the full truth of what went down there. Others may
> know, I do not know. I have seen people doing crazy and acting it out on
> their children, that is not impossible to have happened.
<snip>
> What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that populated
> his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the
> people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he
> wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything
> that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.
>
> leon
At very least for sure. I imagine that even if we were people involved
we could not know to what extent our actions contributed to paranoid
visions and to what extent these perceptions would have happened
regardless of what actions we took.
Also at the very least it is important to recall the words attributed to
WSB on other posts in other threads of it being important to keep in
mind that Jack was "an author". While the stories he tells are
sometimes autobiographical and sometimes historical, they are nearly
always considered to be "fiction."
And even if they weren't, and despite Jack's famous memory, the
perceptions one has of events during a crack-up (based on my own
experiences and others i've known) are certainly only one point of view
of the events that transpired. It is difficult to expect anything akin
to objectivity ever concerning such matters.
None of this is to detract from the wonders of Jack's artistic
contributions. It is merely a limit on how we understand and interpret
them. His contributions at describing vividly the wonders and horrors
that life can present are a wonderful gift to all of us -- and hopefully
to readers for decades and even centuries to come.
and the writing on this thread has definitely hooked me on Big Sur being
a book i ought to read and will certainly obtain in Denver. I leave
tomorrow.
hope y'all keep the Beat-L hopping while i'm gone -- i'll read the
digests when i return. perhaps i'll find a denver story or two to tell
as well.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:13:59 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
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You just gotta love someone who titles his autobiography "Guilty Of
Everything"!
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:16:22 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Jeff Taylor wrote:
> There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out
> there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged
> edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science
> fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."
Thanks, Jeff, for clearing this up. I was feeling very confused indeed.
Guess I need to track down a copy of the revised edition now.
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:25:12 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-----Original Message-----
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 3:02 PM
Subject: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
Date: 97-11-24 17:54:57 EST
From: AngelMindz
To: letabor@cruzio.com
In a message dated 97-11-24 15:37:55 EST, you write:
----------------------------------------------
I said:
<< What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that
populated
his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the
people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he
wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything
that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.>>
You say:
>Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feels
>like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to
>believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's books?
I say:
So far I haven't advanced any theory. Merely looked at what Jack wrote down.
He writes a story describing deranged behavior that was going on in the
cabin in the woods. He also describes his paranoid fears that his mind
painted for him.
I called attention to it because you seemed to me to leap over the facts
with YOUR theories that it was those others who drove Jack crazy at that
time.
If you see my questions as trivial, that is your evaluation. But since you
mention theorizing, it is true that in my mind as well as in yours there
appear to be cetain explanations more plausible than others.
This IS my theory of what happened at Big Sur:
Stretched speed and booze too far holed up in the cabin in the woods.
The more plausible explanation in my mind for Jack's paranoid breakdown in
that visit in Big Sur was, and this is pure speculation, his mind driven
into the paranoid shadows that a few days on speed and alcohol that are
easily recognied by people who are familiar with what typically can happen.
I have seen quite a few people who after three days of overstimulating and
fatiguing their minds with speed, get very very delusional and paranoid. It
may well be that this was the time when Jack stretched too far his acustomed
runs on speed to take it over the edge holed up in that cabin., anxious to
use all these elements in a new work.
I would not call it a theory, but that is more consistent with what I know
about Jack, the way he wrote, the way he used speed a lot for his writing.
Just like on acid people had some lofty trips full of beauty and vision, and
a bummer where from the shadows of their unsettled issues sprung out
monsters that threatened to devour them. I just don't buy your perception
that Jack was fair mindedly and in charge of his mental faculties driven to
madness by these mentally ill others.
You say:
>I don't see jack walking around possessed by paranoid delusions on a daily
>basis. He was familiar with visions; he had them all his life. His writing
>style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,
>faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.
>The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active
>participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.>
>Big Sur reads like life, and I have no reason to question any parts of it,
or
>to seek redemption for the characters who, through stupidity, ignorance, or
>emotional illness, were a part of his descent into madness.
Too bad Lew Welch isn't on the list to tell us what he saw there.
.
I agree with you there.
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:07:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997112418554094@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
My copy is from 1993 and it sounds exactly like the one described below...
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600 Jeff Taylor said:
> >On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:
> >
> >> Timothy Gallaher wrote:
> >> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
> >>
> >> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."
> >
> >There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out
> >there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged
> >edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science
> >fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."
> >
> >*******
> >Jeff Taylor
> >taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
> >*******
>
> Thanks for noting this interesting bibliographical development. Wonder how
it
> came about?
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:21:21 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Resent-From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM>
Comments: Originally-From: Emma Lee <ELYBC@CUNYVM>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: (FWD) Comparative Religions
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Nov 97 10:16:59 EST
For Rinaldo...an alternative text....Notice the interesting variations.
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
This is from my files, which has some duplicates, some new ones, and
even some different ones. ENJOY!
--ely
=======================================================================
A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS OF WORLD RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHIES
Taoism: Shit happens.
Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit happens."
Buddhism: If shit happens, it really isn't shit.
Zen: What is the sound of shit happening?
Hinduism: This shit happened before.
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Protestant: Let shit happen to someone else.
Catholic: If shit happens, you deserve it.
Judaism: Why does this shit always happen to us?
Jehovah's Witness: Let us in and we'll tell you why shit happens.
Hare Krishna: Shit happens, shit happens, shit happens, shit happens.
Pagan: Shit is part of the Goddess, too.
Scientology: This book gets rid of your shit.
Existentialism: Everything is shit, so let's be depressed.
Nihilism: Everything is shit, so let's blow it up.
Satanism: I made shit happen and I'm glad about it.
Solipcism: This shit happens to me alone, but I am the cause of it.
Atheism: I don't believe this shit.
Agnosticism: What is this shit?
New Age: For $300 I can help you achieve Shit Happens Awareness.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:50:35 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> You_Be Fine wrote:
> No, that whole scene contributed to his crack-up at Big Sur, not just
> his own
> alcoholism (which lowered his defenses) but the users and misfits and
> ghouls
> that somehow attached themselves to jack, comprising that Beatnik
> scene.
>
> Read the book and maybe you'll see. No one can save anyone from
> anything, and
> no one can ruin anyone's life. But when someone is sick, as jack was
> then,
> entering the last stages of alcoholism with weeks-long binges, it's
> very easy
> to prey upon that person's weakness, to take advantage of him.
>
> He didn't choose to be an alcoholic, and he didn't have the strength or
> self-honesty to take the cure. He's just like a billion other
> alcoholics. If
> they could choose another way to be, they would.
I have read Big Sur. Twice. But given your interpretation, it does make
me wonder if we're reading the same book. I do believe that Jack's
writing is true to what he saw happening in his own mind. The middle to
end of the book is probably one of the best written records ever of
delirium tremens. But with all your knowledge about alcoholism you fail
to see how someone writing in this state is suffering from acute delirium
and paranoia. He writes (on page 191) "...I feel a great ghastly hatred
of myself and everything, the empty feeling far from being the usual
relief is now as tho I've been robbed of my spinal power right down the
middle on purpose by a great witching force--I feel evil forces gathering
down all around me, from her, the kid, the very walls of the cabin, the
trees, even the sudden thought of Dave Wain and Romana is evil..." Given
your literal interpretation, then not only is Billie and the kid and Dave
and Romana out to get him, but so are the trees and the walls of the
cabin. You have to see, as Leon accurately has been pointed out as well,
that anyone in this condition is not exactly in a sound state of mind.
My assessment of Billie also is much more sympathetic than yours. I
think (and this is only from what Jack wrote in Big Sur) that she truly
understood him and wanted to pull him from the brink of self-destruction,
but even she eventually realizes that he cannot accept her love because
he cannot love himself. I also do not agree with your assessment of
alcoholism, "if they could choose to be another way they would," because
it borders on fringe of saying "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic,"
and on an even greater scale, that people are powerless to change their
own lives no matter what kind of emotional trauma they have experienced
or path they are on. The choice to be otherwise is always there.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:08:32 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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nice law. it is very true and evident in the every church in
almost every century but most evident when the catholic church
started celebrated christmas during winter time to appease the
peasents.
> formed, because they are resistant to change, also, my own slant here,
> something conceived in an instant in time to become an ism is dated to
> that time, and is outdated thereafter because of change. one of the
> reasons that the many major religions that remain alive today are doing
> so is because they've become flexible enough to adapt to change a morph
> as necessary.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:41:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
Let's see if I can clarify what I believe:
I believe jack kerouac was an alcoholic, and that it's the nature of an
alcoholic not to be able to make the healthy choices required for changes.
This belief of mine is highly personal, but I didn't get words to understand
or describe it until I entered the world of 12-Step programs 12 years ago.
I believe that jack was highly gifted, and furthermore, that he existed on a
higher plane of consciousness than most people ever do.
I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that
jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was cracking
up.
I believe Big Sur is autobiographical. I've never heard any information to
the contrary, although I have heard jack quoted as saying it was
autobiographical.
I follow the book quite literally, and with every paragraph, every page I
turn, what he says makes more sense and rings more true.
Like everyone, my affinity for a certain book is founded on my own
experience, my own frame of reference. Because I've lived enough of the
events in Big Sur, I find them all very believable, and jack's telling of
them reasoned and illuminating.
To me, this book is a masterpiece. I just re-read it on Saturday before
posting my first comment to the list. I think I'll read it again, and of
course, I'll be thinking of all your comments while I do.
But I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that Big Sur should be seen as
literature, as opposed to a case study in a nervous breakdown, lived and
recounted by the one who experienced it.
Recently I read Sombrero Fallout by Richard Brautigan, and in the main
subplot (since there are about five plots, I think of them all as subplots,
but then, I'm no scholar, and proud of that fact; just a reader) what I saw
was the beginning of the end of Brautigan's life, or as Judith said about Big
Sur in the first place, "It was like reading a suicide note." I believed
Brautigan was foreshadowing his own suicide, and the fact that he did
ultimately die violently at his own hand supports my belief, at least to me.
What he went through was very familiar to me on a personal level (as a member
in good standing of the Crack-up Club, along with David Rhaesa and some
others too shy to talk about it).
Same thing with jack and reading Big Sur. I don't see any reason why I should
look for metaphor and all those painfully intellectual literary analyses (ew,
I'm so smart) when the words he wrote are all right there in front of me, in
perfect order, exactly as he meant for them to be read.
I really believe (and I'm not suggesting anyone who's participated in this
discussion so far falls into this description) that people are often so
uncomfortable with "the lunatic ravings" of a holy man, because there is so
much truth in them, that they need to retreat into rationalization, seeking
explanations rather than taking what's there on face value.
That's where I'm coming from. I don't try to figure jack out. I just let his
words transport me there.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:05:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
In a message dated 97-11-24 21:42:35 EST, DC wrote:
<<
I have read Big Sur. Twice. But given your interpretation, it does make
me wonder if we're reading the same book. I do believe that Jack's
writing is true to what he saw happening in his own mind. The middle to
end of the book is probably one of the best written records ever of
delirium tremens. But with all your knowledge about alcoholism you fail
to see how someone writing in this state is suffering from acute delirium
and paranoia. >>
What can I tell you? My interpretation is mine, and yours is yours. I don't
know much about delirium tremens (although I'm going to do some research
now), but I don't think you just get them one night and then they go away.
The DTs, in my limited education on that subject, are present in the latest
stages of alcoholism, and it seems to me people don't experience them while
they are drunk, but when alcohol is withdrawn. Of course, in deference to
your comments, I will look for information on this subject so I can be better
informed.
And yes, I believe "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic." Alcoholism is a
disease whose only cure is to quit drinking. But you're still an alcoholic
after you quit, if you get lucky enough, and get enough strength to quit.
But you failed to make your syllogism with your final "extrapolation" on this
subject. I do believe people can change most things in their lives and
overcome great trauma. There are things that are bigger and more powerful
than many people, and alcoholism is one of those things. It is, as I stated,
a disease, covered by most medical insurance plans. And it is fatal, as it
was in jack's case, as it was in Dylan Thomas's case, as Marie mentioned
earlier, as it is in so many cases.
I have a little brother who's now dying of alcoholism. He's three years
younger than me and he has two types of chronic hepatitis, an enlarged liver,
diabetes, is blind in one eye, and was recently diagnosed with cancer of the
tongue. He's had his license taken away a dozen times. He's had a dozen
accidents while driving, most of which were hit-and-runs. He's lost a dozen
jobs, a million friends, watched others die, ruined his life, been in
treatment repeatedly, but guess what? He just can't quit drinking.
I've known him since the day he was born, and I know this is not the life he
would have chosen for himself. I used to get angry with him because I
believed somehow that he was doing this on purpose. I cut him out of my life,
I reported him to the police, I confiscated a gun from his house. But the
fact that I had known him as a child, and had seen where he came from, and
finally admitting I didn't understand alcoholism and needed to, made me come
to believe that "if he could make any other choice, he would." If it were
simply a matter of choice, there would be no alcoholics in the world.
I stand by what I believe, and I apply it to jack, and to all the other
alcoholics in the world who lose the fight.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:15:53 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>
Subject: 'Last time I comitted suicide' reaches Australia
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The movie 'The last time I committed suicide' is available on video, in
Australia. I don't think any Cinema's showed it in Australia.
------------------------------------------------------------------.o0
Duncan Gray
Stored Grain Research Laboratory
CSIRO Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601
Ph. (06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202
----------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:16:48 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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You_Be Fine wrote:
>
> I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that
> jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was cracking
> up.
the above comment makes no sense, i too, am not a scholar (but i am
neither proud or ashamed, i never heard that it was that bad a field)
but i am pretty sure that cracking up (been there done that) means that
what your seeing often isn't what is happening. I find big sur to be a
good read, with great value. But as I read it make me believe that it
isn't an accurate reflection of what was before him but what was an
accurate reflection of what he might of seen. Not that it isn't a dark
and evil world to look at, it is just a little darker to those depressed
by booze.
patricia
p
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:26:40 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> You_Be Fine wrote:
> >
> > I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that
> > jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was
cracking
> > up.
>
> the above comment makes no sense, i too, am not a scholar (but i am
> neither proud or ashamed, i never heard that it was that bad a field)
> but i am pretty sure that cracking up (been there done that) means that
> what your seeing often isn't what is happening. I find big sur to be a
> good read, with great value. But as I read it make me believe that it
> isn't an accurate reflection of what was before him but what was an
> accurate reflection of what he might of seen. Not that it isn't a dark
> and evil world to look at, it is just a little darker to those depressed
> by booze.
> patricia
> p
this is a very complicated thread and certainly requires the open-minded
considerations of realities that i've found so wonderful about the
supportive people on the list.
it seems a question of perspective. the reality of Jack's account and
the reality of alternative readings or potentially of other characters
can ALL be REAL. i once believed that in order to get out of leather
straps in a hospital i combined understandings from Kafka and Leary
notions and became a horse and broke through the straps. the experience
was REAL for me. But it is just as real for me to believe the alternate
account that after having passed out from any number of exhausting
influences the straps were removed. Both are REAL. Which happened is
one of those trivial historical questions (oops letting my colours show
there a bit concerning history!).
The realm of experience and the mysteries behind Being are still so
complicated that we cannot begin to understand them. We have to find
beliefs that work for us and be open-minded about other's beliefs as
well. But we need, i feel, to also guard against letting our beliefs
(which i've done many times) move from the range of belief into dogmas
that destroy the entire sense of believing.
It seems that this thread demonstrates the difficulty and complexity of
the experiences many of us have been through and continue to go through
-- and all our journeys are different -- and also, i think, shows a bit
of the wonderful community that exists here in which these notions can
be found in literature and tossed around and examined and thought about
and interpreted sometimes changing our minds milliseconds after we
thought our minds were made up. It is a lovely group.
And with that, i shift to digest and pack for Denver.
Happy Thanksgiving y'all.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:40:14 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
In-Reply-To: <347A5130.177B@sunflower.com> from "Patricia Elliott" at Nov 24,
97 10:16:48 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Patricia Elliot wrote:
> but i am pretty sure that cracking up (been there done that) means that
> what your seeing often isn't what is happening. I find big sur to be a
> good read, with great value. But as I read it make me believe that it
> isn't an accurate reflection of what was before him but what was an
> accurate reflection of what he might of seen. Not that it isn't a dark
> and evil world to look at, it is just a little darker to those depressed
> by booze.
Well, in my opinion what Kerouac went through (in real life at Big
Sur) is not that unusual. I think his greatness lay not in the
fact that he experienced this "breakdown" but rather that he
wrote about it. It was his courage to tell the truth that made
him important, because the truths need to be told for society
to heal itself. That's how I read his books: as attempts to
spiritually heal the world. Inspired by Jesus and Buddha
(and Emerson and Melville and Dostoevsky etc) ...
All of which is just a segue for me to mention that my
new piece about William S. Burroughs, featuring some excellent
words posted to the BEAT-L by Patricia Elliott (this time I
spelled it right) about his after-death ceremonies. It's
called Sliced Bardo and it's at:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/SlicedBardo/
Okay, back to the discussion.
-------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
| |
| "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |
| -- Ric Ocasek |
-------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:01:37 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: new to the list
Comments: To: VegasDaddy@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Subject:
> Re: is this still beat-l?
> Date:
> Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:20:04 -0500
> From:
> Anthony Celentano <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
>
>
> I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and atheism
> and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a
> discussion about actual Beat literature. I mean, I could discuss the
> pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all
> this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack Kerouac
> was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been
> amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media. I think
> it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any
> vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions
> about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured
> something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into
> that magic. I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I
> contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats? Thanks, and
> perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm
> talking about,
>
> Anthony
Welcome, Anthony!
Hi there how you doing? Not so very long ago, i too, was very new to
the list--I got in right as the last episode of the Great Kerouac Estate
Wars was going on. I felt the same as you, but the longer i am here the
more i discover that if we don't get a feel for who the people behind
the posts are, the conversations are rather boring. So i welcomed this
last foray into the religion issue. That issue was in fact very
relative to the beat generation discussion. Look at the varied
religions you have within the core group of writers--you had a nice
jewish boy and a nice catholic boy who both chose buddhism instead.
So to give you an idea who i am, beyond the above garbled paragraph:
I'm 28, live in marion iowa and i am a kerouac freak. That's why i am
here.
I will also be looking forward to your posts on corso--i have only read
a few peices of his here and there, mostly the stuff in anthologies.
We're all here to learn, so teach, brother, teach. Teach us about
corso.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:20:01 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
Comments: To: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199711250020.SAA21569@core0.mx.execpc.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
You've also gotta love the last paragraph of its opening chapter:
But I'll tell you straight . . . Well, I obviously won't tell you
straight, because that would be a lie. Except for this business
of methadone, I'd have committed suicide years ago. Right now I'm
living from one day to the next, that's the way I feel. I do love
the world. It really is beautiful, so incredibly beautiful (11).
Those last two lines kill me. I have already read through the book
quickly to get a feel for what he's doing. I could hear it right away.
Huncke like all the other Beats show such love for life and human beings
even in the sordid refuse of society (in Huncke's case _as_ a member of
that so called refuse). But there's something even more special about
Huncke's tales and the way that he tells them: they are nothing but
'straight.' Actually he and Corso both share this majestic quality as
personalities, as narrators and poets. He was, as McClure would call Jack,
the sensorium. Huncke was a genuine aesthete, Lazarus of New York and
Tiresias of its wastelands. Beautiful Huncke has something to tell us. I
can see why Allen, Jack, and Bill hung around the guy. He had the rhythm
and the vision and crystaline humility.
Tristan
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:
> You just gotta love someone who titles his autobiography "Guilty Of
> Everything"!
>
> Jym
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:43:44 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:40 PM 11/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Why am I prolonging this?
>>I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes
>>with the
>>audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"
>>I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.
>
> you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
>thought when i saw the ad too.
>
>
Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:48:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: BigSur misconceptions/miscommunications
Comments: To: letabor@cruzio.com
In a message dated 97-11-24 22:16:44 EST, Leon responded:
<< If you see my questions as trivial, that is your evaluation. >>
Leon, I don't think your questions, or your responses, are trivial, and I
hope you don't have the impression that I do. I don't know how you came up
with this impression, since I didn't say it, nor did I think it.
<<I just don't buy your perception that Jack was fair mindedly and in
charge of his mental faculties driven to madness by these mentally ill
others. >>
Nor did I invent or try to convey this "perception." First, I was struck by
how similar his crack-up was to a bad acid trip. That was where I began. I
mentioned Big Sur being a textbook for certain psych courses. I mentioned
that I'd also heard he was suffering from the DTs.
My personal opinion was that he was descending into madness and had a nervous
collapse at the cabin. I don't think he was in charge of his mental faculties
during that crack-up, and never said he was.
I think what might have confused you on this point was the fact that I was
amazed he could write about it accurately (indicating some sort of lucidity
on his part, perhaps) and the fact that he was being exposed to some aberrant
behaviour he found very offensive and frightening from the people he was
socializing with.
I still trust his accounting. I think the combination of ugly, intrusive
fame, his "brother" Tyke dying, his strained relationship with Neal and how
he was foisted off onto Billie, and his revulsion at the lifestyle of the San
Francisco beatnik, along with a good, long bender that included alcohol and
marijuana, pushed him over the edge. But somehow he was able to remember it
or allow some part of himself (through dissociation, perhaps) to witness it,
and write about it.
I sure as hell don't think it's fiction. If I found out it was, my esteem for
jack as a writer would be even higher than it already is, because Big Sur is
an amazing book.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:06:24 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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diane, i find your arguement a compelling addition to leon's post. i
mc
Diane Carter wrote:
> I have read Big Sur. Twice. But given your interpretation, it does make
> me wonder if we're reading the same book. I do believe that Jack's
> writing is true to what he saw happening in his own mind. The middle to
> end of the book is probably one of the best written records ever of
> delirium tremens. But with all your knowledge about alcoholism you fail
> to see how someone writing in this state is suffering from acute delirium
> and paranoia. He writes (on page 191) "...I feel a great ghastly hatred
> of myself and everything, the empty feeling far from being the usual
> relief is now as tho I've been robbed of my spinal power right down the
> middle on purpose by a great witching force--I feel evil forces gathering
> down all around me, from her, the kid, the very walls of the cabin, the
> trees, even the sudden thought of Dave Wain and Romana is evil..." Given
> your literal interpretation, then not only is Billie and the kid and Dave
> and Romana out to get him, but so are the trees and the walls of the
> cabin. You have to see, as Leon accurately has been pointed out as well,
> that anyone in this condition is not exactly in a sound state of mind.
> My assessment of Billie also is much more sympathetic than yours. I
> think (and this is only from what Jack wrote in Big Sur) that she truly
> understood him and wanted to pull him from the brink of self-destruction,
> but even she eventually realizes that he cannot accept her love because
> he cannot love himself. I also do not agree with your assessment of
> alcoholism, "if they could choose to be another way they would," because
> it borders on fringe of saying "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic,"
> and on an even greater scale, that people are powerless to change their
> own lives no matter what kind of emotional trauma they have experienced
> or path they are on. The choice to be otherwise is always there.
> DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:12:27 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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not all of the information to assess alcoholism is true for all alcoholics. the
DTs are what i read when the paranoia and the the visions kick in. Big Sur is an
autobiographical novel, meant to be so by it's author. NOT meant or written or
read as a clinical case study. if you believe that jack is writing the literal
truth, then why are you having such a difficult time recognizing the DTs? much
of what he goes through happens to many in the thros of DTs, this coming from
many years of working psych units, caring for end-stage alcoholic people.
mc
You_Be Fine wrote:
> Let's see if I can clarify what I believe:
>
> I believe jack kerouac was an alcoholic, and that it's the nature of an
> alcoholic not to be able to make the healthy choices required for changes.
> This belief of mine is highly personal, but I didn't get words to understand
> or describe it until I entered the world of 12-Step programs 12 years ago.
>
> I believe that jack was highly gifted, and furthermore, that he existed on a
> higher plane of consciousness than most people ever do.
>
> I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that
> jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was cracking
> up.
>
> I believe Big Sur is autobiographical. I've never heard any information to
> the contrary, although I have heard jack quoted as saying it was
> autobiographical.
>
> I follow the book quite literally, and with every paragraph, every page I
> turn, what he says makes more sense and rings more true.
>
> Like everyone, my affinity for a certain book is founded on my own
> experience, my own frame of reference. Because I've lived enough of the
> events in Big Sur, I find them all very believable, and jack's telling of
> them reasoned and illuminating.
>
> To me, this book is a masterpiece. I just re-read it on Saturday before
> posting my first comment to the list. I think I'll read it again, and of
> course, I'll be thinking of all your comments while I do.
>
> But I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that Big Sur should be seen as
> literature, as opposed to a case study in a nervous breakdown, lived and
> recounted by the one who experienced it.
>
> Recently I read Sombrero Fallout by Richard Brautigan, and in the main
> subplot (since there are about five plots, I think of them all as subplots,
> but then, I'm no scholar, and proud of that fact; just a reader) what I saw
> was the beginning of the end of Brautigan's life, or as Judith said about Big
> Sur in the first place, "It was like reading a suicide note." I believed
> Brautigan was foreshadowing his own suicide, and the fact that he did
> ultimately die violently at his own hand supports my belief, at least to me.
> What he went through was very familiar to me on a personal level (as a member
> in good standing of the Crack-up Club, along with David Rhaesa and some
> others too shy to talk about it).
>
> Same thing with jack and reading Big Sur. I don't see any reason why I should
> look for metaphor and all those painfully intellectual literary analyses (ew,
> I'm so smart) when the words he wrote are all right there in front of me, in
> perfect order, exactly as he meant for them to be read.
>
> I really believe (and I'm not suggesting anyone who's participated in this
> discussion so far falls into this description) that people are often so
> uncomfortable with "the lunatic ravings" of a holy man, because there is so
> much truth in them, that they need to retreat into rationalization, seeking
> explanations rather than taking what's there on face value.
>
> That's where I'm coming from. I don't try to figure jack out. I just let his
> words transport me there.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:27:38 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: levi's burroughs web site
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to levi and all beats
it's beautifully written, laid out, and comprehensive. so good to see
patricia's gentle and loving accounts and descriptions.
levi where did you get that color that absolutely radiant color photo
that is on the page?
in trying to save the image before making a bookmark, i lost the
address. and your post as well, levi,
could you kindly repost the address of the page?
many thanks
marie c
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:31:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971125003813.08af0b8e@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I have a pair of Wide Leg Khaki's from the GAP but then again, Ive always
shopped at the GAP and would still shop there even if Kerouac didnt wear
Khakis....
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Mike Rice wrote:
> At 10:40 PM 11/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >>Why am I prolonging this?
> >>I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes
> >>with the
> >>audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"
> >>I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.
> >
> > you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
> >thought when i saw the ad too.
> >
> >
>
> Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
> interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
> any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
> so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
> WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
>
> Mike Rice
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:31:08 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
> interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
> any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
> so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
> WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
>
> Mike Rice
not me
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:42:37 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: levi's burroughs web site
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie Countryman wrote:
> could you kindly repost the address of the page?
> many thanks
>
thank you for your kind words on my contribution to Levi page, which is
at
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/SlicedBardo/
I too was taken by Levi's work, It was a great compilation in an wow
setting. I was very pleased to the inclusion of the carolyn cassady
note, it seemed fitting. It wouldn't really seem to reflect william if
someone hadn't added "I just don't like the guy".
The interview about tangiers struck me as absolutely right, as did the
orgone box in williams back yard. Of all the places william lived
tangiers (in my conversations with william) made some of the strongest
impressions on william. He would talk of the colors, the People (the
bowles were the most striking). One of williams great cats was named
Jane after jane bowles. she was a (the cat)a delicately built calico,
very curous, very sensitive, very clever. I had to learn not to walk
around the house so solidly, she liked nice even entrances. I normally
bound. Oh i digress. The Levi site in total is a work of art and i
have found his explanation of what beat literature is to be excellant.
His use of links are a delight.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:48:21 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971125003813.08af0b8e@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
> interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
> any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
> so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
Actually, if we really wanted to follow the ad and wear khakis because
Jack and Allen did we'd go to the Goodwill and buy them just as they did.
Biggest reason they were worn was they were dirt cheap and pletiful. Also
those were the days when jeans were dungarees and work clothes, not casual
wear.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:19:13 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Big Sur: paranoia
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Here is one passage where my interpretation is that Jack recognizes that
most of what is going on in his head is in fact paranoia and fantasy (and
it occurs early on before the big buildup that takes place in the cabin
where his mental state worsens further).
pg. 116-117
"...But my childhood revery also included the fact that everybody in the
world was making fun of me because they were all members of an eternal
secret society or Heaven society that knew the secret of the world and
were seriously fooling me so I'd wake up and see the light (i.e. become
enlightened, in fact)--So that I, 'Ti Jean,' was the LAST Ti Jean left in
the world, the last poor holy fool, those people at my neck were the
devils of the earth among whom God had cast me, an angel baby, as tho I
was the last Jesus in fact! and all these people were waiting for me to
realize it and wake up and catch them peeking and we'd all laugh in
Heaven suddenly--But animals werent doing that behind my back, my cats
were always adornments licking their paws sadly, and Jesus, he was a sad
witness to this, somewhat like the animals--He wasn't peeking down my
neck--There lies the root of my belief in Jesus--So actually the only
reality in the world was Jesus and the lambs (the animals) and my brother
Gerard who had instructed me--Meanwhile some of the peekers were kindly
and sad, like my father, but had to go along with everybody else in the
same boat--But my waking up would take place and then everything would
vanish except Heaven, which is God--And that was why later in life after
these rather strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that
fainting vision of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it
including Samadhis during Buddhist meditations in the woods, I conceived
of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messanger from
Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking
society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong
track.
With all this in my background, now at the point of adulthood disaster
of the soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted
into a fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:
and I must have believed it subconsciously because as I say as soon as
Ron Blake left I was well again and in fact content."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 06:01:13 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: BigSur misconceptions/miscommunications
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-----Original Message-----
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 10:47 PM
Subject: BigSur misconceptions/miscommunications
>In a message dated 97-11-24 22:16:44 EST, Leon responded:
I SAID:
><< If you see my questions as trivial, that is your evaluation. >>
YOU SAID:
>Leon, I don't think your questions, or your responses, are trivial, and I
>hope you don't have the impression that I do. I don't know how you came up
>with this impression, since I didn't say it, nor did I think it.
I SAY:
The impression that you felt my "theory" is trivial xame from this passage:
>Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feels
>like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to
>believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's books?
Is there another way to interpret it?
If I felt this was some kind of a personal clash, I would have responded by
backchannell. I believe that we are dealing here with sincerely held views
about the book that we are all interested in.
I was questioning the notion that Jack was horrified into madness by the
behavior of his friends, that there was no reason at all to suspect that his
state of mind might have distorted motives and actions of his friends. I was
not questioning Jack's genius. I also have no question that he was writing
about his experience of life, not inventing fiction. He was writing about
how things seemed to him at the time and how he felt about himself.
YOU SAID:
>I think what might have confused you on this point was the fact that I was
>amazed he could write about it accurately (indicating some sort of lucidity
>on his part, perhaps) and the fact that he was being exposed to some
aberrant
>behaviour he found very offensive and frightening from the people he was
>socializing with.
I SAY:
Enough maybe? good enough for me.
Have a happy thanksgiving everyone
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:38:14 +0000
Reply-To: "Nancy J. Peters" <nancyp@wenet.net>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Nancy J. Peters" <nancyp@WENET.NET>
Organization: CITY LIGHTS BOOKS
Subject: unsubscibe
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"unsubcribe" nancyp@wenet.net
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:39:09 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Unsubscribe
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"unsubscribe" sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:20:23 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Sur: paranoia
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In a message dated 97-11-25 11:00:16 EST, DC wrote
<<=20
Here is one passage where my interpretation is that Jack recognizes that
most of what is going on in his head is in fact paranoia and fantasy (an=
d
it occurs early on before the big buildup that takes place in the cabin
where his mental state worsens further).
=20
>>
This is an excellent example of why I don't post more often to Beat-L. I
already cited from this long passage in one of my very first posts, but
obviously, Diane Carter didn't read it.
Here are snips from my earliest posts:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
I'm happy to stipulate that jack's collapse didn't have anything to do wi=
th
LSD, but was some kind of inner look in midlife where he couldn't deal wi=
th
what he saw.
I sure don't want to overthink this. There are some absolutely tactile im=
ages
in Big Sur, and sometimes I think we overlook the quality of his prose in=
a
book that has so much autobiographical information. We get hung up on "th=
e
story behind the story," and fail to see the beauty.
I was thinking how incredible it was that he had the presence of mind to =
be
aware of what was happening to him, and to write it down so faithfully wh=
en
he was finished cracking up. To me, that is a measure of his inspired sou=
l as
a chosen one, a vessel through which such beauty flows as most ignorant f=
olks
can't really understand. He certainly believed he was inspired:
BUT MY WAKING UP would take place and then everything would vanish except
Heaven, which is God=97And that was why later in life after these rather
strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that fainting visi=
on
of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it=85 in the woods, I
conceived of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messenger =
from
Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking
society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong
track.
But he saw his weaknesses:
WITH ALL THIS IN MY BACKGROUND, now at the point of adulthood disaster of=
the
soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted into a
fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:
And maybe drugs were getting to him:
BUT THAT'S NOT the point, about pot paranoia, yet maybe it is at that=97I=
=92ve
long given it up because it bugs me anyway=97
Who knows? He was certainly disillusioned:
=85I USED TO STAND by the windows like this in my childhood and look out =
on
dusky...=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
I'm not saying it was drugs, the DTs or some 24-hour virus that got to ja=
ck.
I don't need to reach a conclusion about it. And I don't need to be right=
,
either. jack was about conflict, and he struggled all his life to keep tw=
o
conflicting thoughts in his head simultaneously (see Dharma Bums, Scriptu=
re
of the Golden Eternity, Selected Letters).
As I said, Who knows? I'm not going to put jack in a box and limit the
meaning of his stories with my small imagination. He's the one I'm trying=
to
learn from; I'm not trying to reinvent or teach him.
I was hoping for some good old anti-intellectual, heartfelt sharing from =
list
members who've "been to Big Sur" in their own experiences, not in an
antiseptic dissection of jack kerouac (safe in heaven dead and laughing h=
is
ass off at all of us here) by people who need to reach conclusions.
Hey, has anyone seen that picture of jack in the GAP ads? What do you thi=
nk?
Did someone sell him out? Was that right or wrong? What would jack think?
(hoping you all have a sense of humour.....)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:26:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
>interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
>any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
>so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
>WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
well the ad has a weakness, jack didn't wear GAP khakis, so if
anyone wanted to imitate kerouac they could just go out and buy a pair
of dockers, or whatever.. or, more appropriately, head down to the
nearest salv. army or thrift shop and get whatever you happen to find
there.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:11:09 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: New Yorker Question
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Remember on the 40th anniversary of On the Road the New York Times web site
did a forum on Jack kerouac: Typist or Writer?
There was a post there from September that said:
__________
ermoore <erm@mail.utexas.edu> - 12:19pm Sep 16, 1997 EST (#31 of 58)
For anyone interested in a glimpse of Kerouac's never-before-available road
diaries, check out The
New Yorker in the coming weeks. Kerouac's literary executor, Douglas
Brinkley (author of The
Majic Bus and editor of Hunter S. Thompson's recently published early
correspondence The Proud
Highway, among other things), is going to edit and publish this epic journal
and will be offering a few
excerpts from the diaries in an upcoming issue of The New Yorker.
___________________
It's been more than two months this this post and I sure haven't seen
anything like this in the New Yorker. Did I miss it or is it still to come
or is this the publishing equivalent of vaporware.
I'd like to see this. Does anyone know anything about it?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:38:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: New Yorker Question
In a message dated 97-11-25 15:16:17 EST, Tim wrote:
<< It's been more than two months this this post and I sure haven't seen
anything like this in the New Yorker. Did I miss it or is it still to come
or is this the publishing equivalent of vaporware.
I'd like to see this. Does anyone know anything about it? >>
Paul Maher stays up-to-date on Estate-related things and posts them to his
website: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html,
although I don't know if there's anything specific there about this project.
I believe the excerpts are scheduled to appear in December. You might email
Paul and see if he has an update, or contact the New Yorker.
And let us know. I'm interested in this, too.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:43:54 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: NICOSIA'S ARCHIVES
Comments: cc: GNicosia@earthlink.net
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I've just today received this letter from Gerald Nicosia and believe
that anyone interested in the Beat Generation archives or the Jack
Kerouac archives will be riveted by what this letter has to say. I
think it a shame that one great Kerouac scholar should have to be
persecuted like this (at the expense of ALL Kerouac scholras) for having
stood up for Jan Kerouac and for still standing up for her. Greed is
not the sole quality which should guide whoever it is in the control of
the Kerouac estate.
I am writing to everyone who has supported or shown interest in my work
on Jack Kerouac and my critical biography of Kerouac, "Memory Babe".
The huge amount of research I did on Kerouac's life during the years
1977-1981, including 300 hundred taped interviews and many thousands of
pages of letters and other documents, is in grave danger of being lost
forever. Let me explain.
In 1987, for the very modest fee of $7,500, 1 placed the entire "Memory
Babe" Archive on deposit at the University of Lowell (now called the
University of Massachusetts, Lowell). Since Lowell is Jack Kerouac's
hometown, I assumed the archive would receive maximum exposure there to
scholars, writers, and others interested in studying Kerouac's life and
writings. In fact, when I placed the Memorv Babe archive at the
university, it was done with the stipulation that it be made available
to the public for scholarly study. I also stipulated that the
materials, especially the tapes, be properly cared for.
The unique and precious quality of this material cannot be
overemphasized. Of the 300 people I taped who knew Kerouac, over 100
are now dead. Many of the dead interviewees are major American writers,
such as Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs, Kenneth Rexroth, Robert
Duncan, Bob Kaufman, Ted Berrigan, John Clellon Holmes, Paul Carroll,
Malcolm Cowley, Seymour Krim, Herbert Huncke, and Jan Kerouac. Other
dead interviewees include Kerouac's first two wives, Edie Parker and
Joan Haverty, and close boyhood friends. These interviews can never be
replaced.
The University of Lowell has never copied these tapes on to fresh
cassettes or made any other effort to preserve them, such as
digitalization, despite my complaints about their obvious deterioration
over time. Then, in June, 1995, 1 received a post card from
scholar/professor James Jones that the entire archive was closed to the
public. Mr. Jones wrote: "I just tried to look at the papers you
donated to the University of Lowell, and the librarian in the Mogan
Center told me your collection is closed to the public until the lawsuit
is resolved."
I called Martha Mayo, the librarian, to ask what was going on, and why
Jan Kerouac's lawsuit against the Sampas family, to recover her fathers
papers, should have anything to do with my archives. Ms. Mayo informed
me that John Sampas, the literary executor for Stella Sampas Kerouac's
estate, had complained about people having access to mv collection
without his permission. Mr. Sampas lives in Lowell and has a great deal
of influence there. The library agreed to shut my collection, even
though Mr. Sampas has never demonstrated that he has the legal authority
to keep people from using any of the "Memory Babe" materials for study.
(Legally, he has the right only to keep people from publishing or
broadcasting some of Jack Kerouac's writings without his permission.)
I threatened to make a public issue of the illegal closing of my
archives and was then told--deceptively--by the librarian that the
collection was still open, that she had only restricted the xeroxing of
Jack Kerouac letters. (There are also 2,000 Jack Kerouac letters in
xerox in my collection, more Jack Kerouac letters than in any other spot
on earth.) Several months later, however, I began getting more letters
and calls from scholars who had been turned away from the entire
collection. The university then admitted the collection was indeed
closed.
In effect, this enormous archive of study material on the life of Jack
Kerouac has been permanently buried--and consigned to imminent
destruction, since the life of many of the tapes is at most only a few
more years.
Other libraries, such as the Bancroft in Berkeley and the University of
Texas at Austin, have already expressed their interest in acquiring the
"Memory Babe" archives for the purpose of making it available for
study. But the University of Massachusetts at Lowell will not divest
itself of the archives even if paid back in full the purchasing price.
The University of Massachusetts, Lowell, will not sell the "Memory Babe"
archives, will not properly care for it, and will not show it to
anyone. This is a situation in which everyone is the loser, and most
especially the future generations of scholars and writers who seek
access to a wealth of primary source material on Jack Kerouac.
The University of Massachusefts, Lowell, has left me no choice but to
file a breach of contract suit against them, to recover the "Memory
Babe" archive so that it can be placed in another institution, where it
can be made freely available to the public. An institution not under
the direct influence of Mr. John Sampas. For two years I tried and
failed to put together a pro bono legal team to carry out this suit, but
was unable to do so. I have, however, found a Boston attorney who will
take the case at a considerably reduced rate. But I still need to come
up with a $20,000 retainer, which will also cover filing fees,
depositions, and so forth.
Action must be taken now, or the chance to act will be lost forever. A
statute of limitation is running on fraud and breach of contract--three
years in Massachusetts. That statute will be up in June of 1998. If I
do not take action before then, I will lose forever the legal right to
recover the "Memory Babe" archives
I am asking people to donate as much as they possibly can. I do not
intend to make any money from this legal action whatsoever. My only
goal is to save this huge archive of study materials for posterity.
Every person who donates will receive a receipt for their donation and
an accounting every 6 months of how the money is being spent.
We hope that negative publicity will cause the University of
Massachusetts to settle quickly, to accept payment for the archive and
transfer it directly to me or to another university that offers to
purchase it. If indeed we have to go the distance in trial court and
appellate court, there is still a good chance, if we win, of recouping
legal expenses from the university and/or from the resale of the archive
to another university.
Once this happens, once we win and resell the archive to another
university, all remaining funds, plus any earned, will be returned to
the donors with the aim of fullest possible reimbursement. For example,
if a total of $20,000 was donated, and $20,000 is recovered, everyone
will get 1 00% of their donation back. If only $1 0,000 is recovered
(if, for example, legal fees are not repaid, but we earn $1 0,000
reselling the archive), then every donor will receive back 50% of his
donation.
The "Memory Babe" archive is the largest archive of study materials
concerning Jack Kerouac's life and work anywhere in the world. It can
be saved only with your help. I appeal to you now, with the coming
generations of scholars and writers in mind.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart, for listening and for helping.
Gerald Nicosia
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:56:43 +0900
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>
Subject: Re: New Yorker Question
In-Reply-To: <199711252011.MAA11998@hsc.usc.edu>
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>For anyone interested in a glimpse of Kerouac's never-before-available road
>diaries, check out The
>New Yorker in the coming weeks. Kerouac's literary executor, Douglas
>Brinkley (author of The
>Majic Bus and editor of Hunter S. Thompson's recently published early
>correspondence The Proud
>Highway, among other things), is going to edit and publish this epic journal
>and will be offering a few
>excerpts from the diaries in an upcoming issue of The New Yorker.
>
>___________________
>
>It's been more than two months this this post and I sure haven't seen
>anything like this in the New Yorker. Did I miss it or is it still to come
>or is this the publishing equivalent of vaporware.
I'm also wondering about the publication of these excerpts. I live
outside of Nagoya a couple of hours, and have been sneaking away on Sunday
mornings on the train to the city where the English language
books/magazines are sold to see if it's come out yet. I feared I had missed
it. Can anyone provide the issue date of the magazine? Or has its
publication been postponed?
:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::
Timothy Hoffman
Komaki English Teaching Center (KETC)
Komaki Shiminkaikan, KETC
2-107 Komaki
Komaki, Aichi 485
work (0568) 76-0905
fax (0568) 77-8207
home (0568)72-3549
timothy@gol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:04:39 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
In-Reply-To: <347A5130.177B@sunflower.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
g'day all,
as i've just joined, i thought i'd just briefly introduce myself.
i've been an avid reader of kerouac and other beat writers since 1965 when
as a schoolboy i came across a hardback edition of 'on the road' in one of
the secondhand bookstores i used to haunt - i think it was the 'girls!
jazz! booze!' on the cover (predating 'sex'n'drugs'nrock'nroll?) that got
my attention. later as a lawstudent at university, i was blessed to find
one wintry morning a whole assortment of city lights publications out on
sale at a ridiculously reduced rate- i picked up as many as i could afford,
including some now hard to find here like Scripture of the Golden Eternity
by K, and The First Third by Neal Cassady. ( I got Mexico City Blues too,
but that vanished long a go at one of /those/ parties)
in the last 30 years i have also amassed a lot of cuttings and articles - i
hope to start learning more here of course.............
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:13:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Aronowitz/Nicosia
Waiting for the other shoe to drop...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:19:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Memory babe Archive - Al Aronowitz post correction
In-Reply-To: <347B388A.1A5F@bigmagic.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Friends:
Please make the following correction before you pass Al's post on to friends.
In the third from the last paragragraph:
***
Instead of contributors receiving an accounting EVERY SIX MONTHS they will
be informed of EXACTLY how the money is used.They will NOT receive an
accounting every six months simply becauase that could become expensive and
time consuming. There is an incredible amount of work to do and not much
time to do it in.
***
By Thanksgiving Day (maybe I'll have it up by 11-26-97) there will be a
notice at http://www.bookzen.com detailing the following fundraiser to help
Gerry Nicosia recover the Memory babe Archive from the University of
Massachusetts.
A broadside (picture of Jan Kerouac at her father's grave and a poem by Jan
titled "Natasha") along with an Incredible Librarian T-Shirt will be given
to anyone who makes a contribution. For the T-Shirt alone $25. For the
boardside alone $25. For both $45. For any of the three please add $5 for
the cost of shipping the poster and t -shirt in a substantial tube.
As many Beats and friends of Jan know, Natasha was the stillborn daughter
Jan lost in Mexico when she was 16. On her way to Mexico Jan had stopped
and visited with her dad. He instructed her to use the name Kerouac and to
write. The photograph of Jan was taken by Chris Felver and printed by White
Fields Press. The photographer has signed the broadside. As Jan's literary
executor Gerry Nicosia has given permission to use Jan's picture and the
poem Jan wrote to the still-born child that would have been Jack's
granddaughter. I have asked Gerry if he would also sign the broadside if
anyone wanted him to do so. He said he would.
Contributions can be sent to:
Gerry Nicosia
SAVE THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE
PO Box 130
Corte Madera CA 94976-0130
(415) 924-2270 (phone/fax)
The t-shirts are cotton, sizes Medium, Large and X-Large. The art is four
color on the front and shows the Incredible Librarian flying.
Below her image is "Guardian de la Sabidoria - Keeper of Knowledge.
On the back is:
"In the defense of freedom and literacy libraries are the most powerful
weapon we have. Use them!"
These t-shirts were originally created, as was the character The Incredible
Librarian, because of the desperate need for more preservation labs and for
more trained preservation librarians.
These are very high quality t-shirts. I have one test shirt that I have
machine washed in hot water over 300 times. The art is clear,the shirt
strong. No tears, no threads arond the edges.
$2000.00 worth of these t-shirts are being donated by BookZen and Mica
Press to help recover the Memory Babe Archives from the University of
Massachusetts.
I will provide an address for the web site, with all of the art and
information, by tomorrow.
I would appeciate it if contributors allow me to post their names on the
web site that will track tis effort to recover and preseve the Memory Babe
Archive.
Thanks.
j grant
Small Press Publishers and Authors
Display Books Free At BookZen
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
http://www.bookzen.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Before you reach into your pocket...
Regarding the fundraising campaign launched by Gerry Nicosia, et. al., before
you make a donation, don't you think it would be a good idea to ask the UMass
Lowell Library for a comment, as well as what their position would be toward
relinquishing these papers?
Another good question would be to ask them why they are reluctant, if in
fact, they are.
They are not required to sell it, by law or for any other reason. They bought
it, fair and square.
With all due respect toward Gerald Nicosia, I want to hear the other side of
the story.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In-Reply-To: <971125215441_-388719893@mrin51.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:42 You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM> wrote:
>Regarding the fundraising campaign launched by Gerry Nicosia, et. al., before
>you make a donation, don't you think it would be a good idea to ask the UMass
>Lowell Library for a comment, as well as what their position would be toward
>relinquishing these papers?
>
>Another good question would be to ask them why they are reluctant, if in
>fact, they are.
>
>They are not required to sell it, by law or for any other reason. They bought
>it, fair and square.
>
>With all due respect toward Gerald Nicosia, I want to hear the other side of
>the story.
Interesting post You_Be Fine,
Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
dollars? Do you think anyone would donate $2000.00 worth of T-Shirts to
assist in such a thing?
Were I a cautious person like yourself You-Be-Fine-AngelMindz, I would be
on the phone to the American Library Association asking them to
investigate. The following will save you time:
American Library Association
50 E Huron St.
Chicago, IL
1-800-545-2433
1-312-944-6780
Do the same with the Massachusetts Library Association and the Library
Association in your state Contact the organizations made up of Preservation
Librarians within the ALA. Do a blanket canvas of the Preservation
Librarian groups in all the states. Before this is over every librarian in
North America is going to have insights into how the U MASS cares for
valuable collections. As will academics, writers, poets and others who have
archives that might, under ordinary circumstances, be given or sold to the
U MASS.
The Special Collections librarian at U MASS Lowell is going to find out
that the position of Special Collections librarian comes with the
obligation to care for the collections. Nothing is more important than
PRESERVATION. To not PRESERVE is a betrayal of the most serious kine.
Materials that have been entrusted to a university are deteriorating and
incredibly valuable information is being lost--NEVER TO BE RECOVERED.
As for asking them what their position is on reliquishing the Memory Babe
Archive, read the post. They refuse to do so. They refuse to accept what
they paid for it so the collection can be placed in a library that cares
for archived materials.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line by 11-27-97
http://www.bookzen.com
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 03:56:41 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
welcome John. how bout telling us about thos articles you have? ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of John Pullicino
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 5:04 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: allow me to...
g'day all,
as i've just joined, i thought i'd just briefly introduce myself.
i've been an avid reader of kerouac and other beat writers since 1965 when
as a schoolboy i came across a hardback edition of 'on the road' in one of
the secondhand bookstores i used to haunt - i think it was the 'girls!
jazz! booze!' on the cover (predating 'sex'n'drugs'nrock'nroll?) that got
my attention. later as a lawstudent at university, i was blessed to find
one wintry morning a whole assortment of city lights publications out on
sale at a ridiculously reduced rate- i picked up as many as i could afford,
including some now hard to find here like Scripture of the Golden Eternity
by K, and The First Third by Neal Cassady. ( I got Mexico City Blues too,
but that vanished long a go at one of /those/ parties)
in the last 30 years i have also amassed a lot of cuttings and articles - i
hope to start learning more here of course.............
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:25:50 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
You_Be Fine wrote:
>
> Regarding the fundraising campaign launched by Gerry Nicosia, et. al., before
> you make a donation, don't you think it would be a good idea to ask the UMass
> Lowell Library for a comment, as well as what their position would be toward
> relinquishing these papers?
>
> Another good question would be to ask them why they are reluctant, if in
> fact, they are.
>
> They are not required to sell it, by law or for any other reason. They bought
> it, fair and square.
>
> With all due respect toward Gerald Nicosia, I want to hear the other side of
> the story.
with all due respect, why don't you do this. and lets us all tred very
carefully. as i don't want to hear the other shoe drop until after the
dreaded holidays are over. i need my beat-l hey did you guys look at
what levi has done as a memorial to william.. he used my bardo peice
and never did it work as well. great exciting people we have on beat-l
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/SlicedBardo/
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:27:17 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: On The Road to Big Sur
Seems like all of jack's books connect to his other books... so I picked up
my copy of "Trip Trap" (Grey Fox Press 1973), which isn't strictly a kerouac
book, since it's coauthored by Lew Welch (Dave Wain in Big Sur) and Albert
Saijo (George Baso 'the little Japanese Zen master hepcat'), and was
published after jack had died and Lew had disappeared, assumed dead...
Albert wrote the first piece, "A Recollection," about the road trip he, Lew
and Jack took from San Francisco to New York the Thanksgiving before Big Sur,
and his return with Lew to Hyphen-House, their collective house "on the
northwest corner of Post and Buchanan in San Francisco." He tells about the
kitchen table where he gathered with housemates Les Thompson, Tom Fields,
Philip Whalen, John Blaise, and Lew, and how jack arrived there in November
of 1959, "at the height of his fame... drinking heavy, but he appeared to be
on a binge and determined to party on. He never lacked company. His celebrity
drew company."
Housemates and company gathered around the kitchen table for "plain quiet
talk or boozing and howling," and Albert adds, "It was as Jack described it
in the beautifully sustained prose of his book of suffering, Big Sur." jack
said: "It's an old roominghouse of four stories on the edge of the Negro
district of San Francisco where... [they] all live in different rooms with
their clutter of rucksacks and floor mattresses and books and gear, each one
taking turns one day a week to go out and do all the shopping and come back
and cook up a big communal dinner in the kitchen."
Albert was very aware of jack's declining mental state that November,
foreshadowing the August crackup at Big Sur, observing how "The mornings
after were deathly quiet. Jack would get up with a look in his eyes verging
on the dead eye look of metabolic extremity and smile a ruined hungover
smile. You understood then that his drinking was some kind of penance he had
put on himself to do in a Mexican Indian Catholic way, and it brought to mind
the 51st Psalm that begins, 'Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy
lovingkindness...' Penance for what? God only knows, but why else did he do
it? Sacrifice himself to juice. When he drank it was like he tore open his
breast with his bare hands to show God his pure beating heart."
So I went back to Big Sur (the book, not the location) with the addition of
Albert's information, and read some passages over again, and saw the whole
crack-up a little more deeply, and certainly, more spiritually. "So easy in
the woods to daydream and pray to the local spirits and say, 'Allow me to
stay here, I only want peace' and those foggy peaks answer back mutely
Yes--And to say to yourself (if you're like me with theological
preoccupations) (at least at that time, before I went mad and still had such
preoccupations) 'God who is everything possesses the eye of the awakening,
like dreaming a long dream of an impossible task and you wake up in in a
flash, oops, No Task, it's done and gone'--"
Seemed like part of the tapestry of madness jack was being woven into
involved a serious questioning of his faith in a God of some sort. He
isolates this ambivalence as the beginning of his crack-up: "The sea seems to
yell to me GO TO YOUR DESIRE DONT HAND AROUND HERE-- For after all the sea
must be like God, God isnt asking us to mope and suffer and sit by the sea in
the cold at midnight for the sake of writing down useless sounds, he gave us
the tools of self reliance after all to make it straight thru bad life
mortality towards Paradise maybe I hope--But some miserables like me dont
even know it, when it comes to us we're amazed--Ah, life is a gate, a way, a
path to Paradise anyway, why not live for fun and joy and love or some sort
of girl by a fireside, why not go to your desire and LAUGH...but I ran away
from that seashore and never came back again without that secret knowledge:
that it didnt want me there, that I was a fool to sit there in the first
place, the sea has its waves, the man has his fireside, period.
That being the first indication of my later flip--"
Backing up, being aware of list-members' comments about the DTs and what jack
experienced at Big Sur, I was also newly aware of this passage he wrote
describing the skid road hotel room he checked into when he first arrived,
before he hooked up with Monsanto (Ferlinghetti): "But the rucksack sits
hopefully in a strewn mess of bottles all empty, empty poorboys of white
port, butts, junk, horror... 'One fast move or I'm gone,' I realize, gone the
way of the last three years of drunken hopelessness which is a physical and
metaphysical hopelessness you cant learn in school no matter how many books
on existentialism or pessimism you read, or how many jugs of vision-producing
Ayahuasca you drink, or Mescaline take, or Peyote goop up with--That feeling
when you wake up with the delirium tremens with the _fear_ of eerie death
dripping from your ears like those special heavy cobwebs spiders weave in the
hot countries..." I found myself wondering what kind of "junk" he was
referring to here, and certainly interested in all his references to
psychedelics.
Back in Trip Trap, Albert had mentioned, as part of his description of
goings-on at the kitchen table, "It was before acid, there was occasionally
peyote and some grass." That really caused me to wonder once again about the
nature of jack's very psychedelic (to me) crack-up.
Albert also observed, remembering the 1959 visit to jack's home in Northport,
that "When he was here at home, safe, relaxed, unharassed, the famous author
bullshit set aside, you could see the great beauty and sweetness of his
character." But away from the security of his home, it was entirely another
story.
Side note: In Northport, after the Thanksgiving 1959 road trip, jack showed
Lew and Albert something special: "He showed us a manuscript of his notes,
jottings, and text on Buddhism. The extent of his study was quite impressive.
I don't believe any part of this manuscript has ever been published."
That reminded me of his 'Tao on the Toilet,' which Adrien posted to the list
a few days ago with the subject line, "A little too much of the dharma..."
'A wellknown truth in every private heart
in this long night of life:
A big defecation leaves nothing to be wiped,
A small one, there's no wiping it.
This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)
Hilariously enough, the origins of this anal thinking, as well as the
treatise on "dirty azzoles," are found in Trip Trap within the poem jack
wrote jointly with Lew Welch, titled "This Is What It's Called." And you may
learn a bit more than you want to know about Peter Orlovsky's bowel habits in
Albert's accounting, as well.
Trip Trap is a great book to read before or after or even DURING Big Sur. And
for all the discussion on the list about Big Sur in the last few days, I hope
those who haven't read it will now feel compelled to do so. It is an amazing
book.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:53:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:
<<
Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
dollars? >>
Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that
was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has
a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds
frivolous to me.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:05:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In a message dated 97-11-25 23:45:38 EST, you write:
<<
with all due respect, why don't you do this. and lets us all tred very
carefully. as i don't want to hear the other shoe drop until after the
dreaded holidays are over. i need my beat-l >>
I'm not interested in the subject and don't want to spend the time. I want to
talk about jack. and yeah, I saw that site at Levi's and it's
GRRRRRRRRRR-EAT!
I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to
participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial
issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until
AFTER the holidays.
Are you with me? Ho-ho-ho!!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:11:57 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
if the seller stipulated things, agreement upon which the sale was contingent,
and the purchaser defaults, then the purchaser is in breach of contract.
aside from that, YBF, a library is a public place, funded publicly, for public
use. it has a public responsibility to properly care for the items it has
procured with public funds. it also cannot withhold any but extremely
valuable items from its users - and even those are made available to
professionals of good scholarly repute, for study. if the library is not
doing the above, then it is failing in its public trust and should be divested
of anything which is being handled in a contrary manner.
ciao, sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of You_Be Fine
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 8:53 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:
<<
Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
dollars? >>
Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that
was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has
a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds
frivolous to me.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:14:16 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: delete
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
delete
is it beat to delete
i can throw a book away if
it is missing a soul.
do books have souls. do they go to heavon.
if i hit the numbers man
i would buy old tapes of william
crooning on to me of what it was to know
and kick around with jack and allen.
how spare ass annie
leaning on a lampost
looked to allen.
on the corner of newyork.
the agony of watching
jack loose interest in talking,
over lunch, dead at 11:am
i would hike over brooklyn bridge
into a cool blue roofed room in tangiers.
If the number man would give me copies
of allen, squeezing his penis gently in
overflowing joy.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:45:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>
Subject: Estate Debate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Not since the OJ trial have I wished so much for a gag order.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:37:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: On The Road to Big Sur - Trip Trap
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
You do be fine "You-be-fine"...
Thanks very much for the lengthy post about "Trip Trap". I've tended
almost uniformly to take a pass on the philosophical threads/posts that have
been going by. Something about yours grabbed me, perhaps because it was tied
to real people's reports of the events around their lives. I will look for
"Trip Trap." Thanks again.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:10:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In-Reply-To: <971125235315_1672083065@mrin41.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:
>
><<
> Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
> against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
> think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
> dollars? >>
>
>Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that
>was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has
>a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds
>frivolous to me.
There are hundreds of taped interviews that will be lost, forever, if
preservation measures are not taken to save the tapes. These are interviews
with people who knew Jack Keroauc intimately, Burroughs was interviewed,
many other writers, Kerouac's wives and lovers, very close women and men
friends. To many people this information is so important that considerable
time and money will be spent insuring that the collection is removed from U
Mass, Lowell to a library that has a presevation lab and preservation
librarians who work hard to preserve collections that have been placed in
their care--entrusted to them.
I don't want to get into a big thing over this, but I feel very strongly
about the conservation and preservation of historic documents--particularly
material that is stored in or on unstable material. The life of magnetic
tape is short. Everyone knows this. We simply cannot allow the information
on those tapes to be lost.
Forget about the tapes in the Memory Babe Archive for a minute.and let me
mention another project so you don't think Memory Babe is the only
information I'm concerned about. Wisconsin has the second largest
population of Hmong in the U.S. These remarkable people arrived here
without any history other than their stories. Their history is passed down
generation to generation verbally--it is not written. Cultural shock is
taking a terrible toll of these people--particularly the seniors. The
seniors carry the history in their minds. Everytime one of them dies they
lose, WE LOSE, Hmong history. Can you imagine not having a history. Not
knowing the what, where, why, when and how of yourself, your parents, your
grandparents? No serious, concentrated effort is being made to record the
history of the Hmong. To most is seems unimportant. It demands an
expenditure of funds states do not feel they can spend. Taxpayers are
reluctant. Not a good situation. What should be done to preserve this
history?
Is it as important as the travels of Lewis and Clark? The Vietnam War. My
Lai. Two New Jersey teen agers commiting suicide to protest a war. Letters
your grandmother wrote. An old diary.
What should be done to preserve the scattered fragments of Bukowski,
Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac, and hundreds of others--some minor, some
major. Little things here and there. A note. A few words. What Ginsberg
said about Nicosia while we were talking one evening. A few words while
autographing his high schol yearbook picture for me. Fragments. Safe.
Preserved.
The work to raise money to save this archive is simply that. To save
information that someone, someday, will use. A small bit of information
that helps form a link to another little piece of information and another
and another and another and we learn.
Just the tid-bits one picks up on this list are sometimes mind-blowing.
Example.
Today I added a picture of Meridel LeSueur to the page that has information
about the last book she wrote at age 93. The Dread Road. The picture was a
quick snapshop Charlie Plymell took of Meridel in an elevator at Westbeth,
an artist commune in NYC over ten years ago. Plymell learned of my interest
in Meridel on this list. Meridel was in NYC for the book publishing
gathering the Feminist Press was having for the anthology of Meridel's work
"RIPENING: The Writings of Meridel LeSueur.... " She invited Plymell to
the gathering. An incredible book.. A picture from Plymell to BookZen to
the World Wide Web. From me to the Minnesota Historical Society, with a
copy going to Special Collection at the University if Iowa. Is this picture
important? Are Plymell's notes on the meeting important? Is the
conversation he and Meridel had that day important? Are Meridel's notes
about the meeting with Plymell important. When compared fifty years from
now what will some researcher discover about these two remarkable
observers. Hundreds of her notebooks are slowly being transcribed.
Important? To some people yes. To students studying the Great Depression
Meridel's notes, fiction, poetry, recorded words are priceless. What did
Meridel pass on to one of her grandchildren who put together the first
Native American radio station on an Indian reservation?
Her notes will tell us...something. But they have to be preserved, cared
for, cherished. Preservation Librarians and others, do that--preserve
information.
Please people, just let this thing happen. Please understand that what this
is about is saving information that, since you are into Beat History,
should be as important to you as it is to the person who gathered the
information, and the people who want to study the information.
Sorry for the length of this post. So scattered. Fragmented. Too tired to
dig in and edit. My much better half, a preservation librarian, would have
said it better while being appalled that it needed saying at all.
This is it. Nothing more from me.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line by 11-27-97
http://www.bookzen.com
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:00:58 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Lachlan Jobbins <hipster66@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Herbert Huncke
Content-Type: text/plain
Has anyone picked up the new(ish) 'herbert huncke reader'?
Having just received it from barnes and noble the other day I am
thoroughly enjoying what I have read so far. Huncke has several short
pieces in Charters' 'Portable Beat reader' but these I think fail to
represent the overall quality of his work. When I first tried to find
Huncke's Journal, The Evening Sun Turned Crimson and Guilty of
Everything I was disappointed to find them all out of print.
This collection includes large sections from these books as well as
other uncollected material. Perhaps we could start a new
thread/discussion? Personally I'm very impressed with the combination of
existentialist thought and fiendish behaviour in what I've read so far.
Huncke is easily as perceptive a reporter as John Clellon Holmes
(another whom I have a great respect for), and in many ways I think his
engagement with his subject equals that of Kerouac.
Just a thought, 'cos I haven't seen him mentioned for a while.
Love to hear your thoughts.
Lachlan.
P.S.: Has anyone got a copy of Lawrence Lipton's 'The Holy Barbarians'
for sale? I read it last year in a library and would like to get my
hands on a copy for keeps. Thanks. L.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:35:06 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: delete
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
beautiful and very pertinent for the time, patricia; i too don't want
the list to dive back into the debate. i think it is beat to delete, and
rather than stoke the fires, i will do so.
you shed light in the darkness and lay a balm on me(i would hope on all)
today as i write this i am listening to jack reciting, right now he is
asking buddhacharlieparker to 'lay a balm on us all.
have a good holiday,
patricia. the list needs your quiet soul and your tender love for
william, for all.
thankyou
mc
Patricia Elliott wrote:
> delete
> is it beat to delete
> i can throw a book away if
> it is missing a soul.
> do books have souls. do they go to heavon.
> if i hit the numbers man
> i would buy old tapes of william
> crooning on to me of what it was to know
> and kick around with jack and allen.
> how spare ass annie
> leaning on a lampost
> looked to allen.
> on the corner of newyork.
> the agony of watching
> jack loose interest in talking,
> over lunch, dead at 11:am
> i would hike over brooklyn bridge
> into a cool blue roofed room in tangiers.
> If the number man would give me copies
> of allen, squeezing his penis gently in
> overflowing joy.
> p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:38:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In-Reply-To: <971125235315_1672083065@mrin41.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I agree wholeheartedly. From what I hear, UMass is usually pretty good at
preserving its archives. For everyone's peace of mind, before donating
the money for a lousy tshirt, check out UMass on your own.
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, You_Be Fine wrote:
> In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:
>
> <<
> Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
> against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
> think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
> dollars? >>
>
> Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that
> was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has
> a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds
> frivolous to me.
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:43:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: delete
In-Reply-To: <347BB028.78F@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Exquisite Patricia.
j grant
>delete
>is it beat to delete
>i can throw a book away if
>it is missing a soul.
>do books have souls. do they go to heavon.
> if i hit the numbers man
>i would buy old tapes of william
>crooning on to me of what it was to know
>and kick around with jack and allen.
> how spare ass annie
>leaning on a lampost
>looked to allen.
>on the corner of newyork.
>the agony of watching
>jack loose interest in talking,
>over lunch, dead at 11:am
>i would hike over brooklyn bridge
>into a cool blue roofed room in tangiers.
>If the number man would give me copies
>of allen, squeezing his penis gently in
>overflowing joy.
>p
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line by 11-27-97
http://www.bookzen.com
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:43:05 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In-Reply-To: <971126000555_-255281152@mrin83.mail.aol.com> from "You_Be Fine"
at Nov 26, 97 00:05:55 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to
> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial
> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until
> AFTER the holidays.
I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
> I'm not interested in the subject and don't want to spend the time. I want to
> talk about jack. and yeah, I saw that site at Levi's and it's
> GRRRRRRRRRR-EAT!
Thanks, and thanks to everybody who said they liked it. Well,
BEAT-L is a great place to find material (thanks again Patricia),
and I just hope it stays that way.
Also by the way for anybody who's around New York City next Tuesday,
I'm going to be debuting a few minutes from the secret project I've
been working on for over a year, a digital movie version of
Dostoevsky's "Notes From Underground" updated to take place in
modern-day Manhattan. It's strange as hell, and that's all I
can say. Anyway this'll be part of a web writer's reading
at 7pm December 2nd at 678 Broadway (near 4th Street), and
is being arranged by my friend Xander Mellish (more info at
http://www.xmel.com/webwriters.html).
Okay, enough plugging ... thanks again for all the nice words
about "Sliced Bardo" ... happy thanksgiving everybody.
-------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
| |
| "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |
| -- Ric Ocasek |
-------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:21:26 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "THE SNARK IS A BOOJUM...." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Burroughs archives
For those of you who were interested in the Burroughs archives at Ohio State
University, I may have some information for you soon.James Grauerholz called me
up and asked if I wanted to do some photo reasearch for a new biography on
Burroughs.Of course I said yes, so I hope to begin soon.The book will be pub-
lished by the Bloomsbury Press, same as did the Kerouac book; ANGLEHEADED
HIPSTER. As soon as I know more, I will pass it on to everyone.
Don't forget to read WSB's Thanksgiving Prayer before dinner tomorrow.
---Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:00 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Bill Gargan and Beat-L
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) - The FREE way to
access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!
Bill Gargan and Beat-L,
If any of my regular correspondents have been wondering where I have gone--I
have suffered a computer crash. Am now trying to catch up at my fathers--all
459 messages! I'll be back, ready or not.
Bill--I don't have the "unsubscribe" address. Could you unsub me until I can
start dealing with this mail flow?
Meanwhile. If anyone truly wants to reach me it will require a
call--650-365-6312.
Happy Thanksgiving.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:55:57 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:53 PM 11/25/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:
>
><<
> Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
> against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
> think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
> dollars? >>
>
>Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that
>was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has
>a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds
>frivolous to me.
>
>
The 20K retainer is for legal fess. Sad isn't it that lawyer fees are worth
more than historical documents and interviews.
But on the other hand it is not sad. It doesn't matter how much they can
fetch (eg $7500) what matters is their interest. I believe in preservation
of things. That ostensibly is what libraries should do. In terms of the
Lowell Library's side of it I am waiting for you to talk to them and let us
know.
One comment I have is what about the publisher of Memory Babe. I would hope
they might take an interest in these documents and hopefully would be
interested in provided funding.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:02:36 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to
>> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial
>> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until
>> AFTER the holidays.
>
>I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!
I love the archive debates.
(And I am not a participant in them--I have no vested interest at all).
I would say that this plea by You_be_Fine would carry a little more weight
if he wasn't the one who cast the first stone (and answered the first return
volley as well).
He starts a flame war and then starts saying "let's not have a flame war."
You_Be_Fine, your posts on Kerouac's writings are really good and full of
info and familiarity and knowledge. I enjoy them.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:15:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In a message dated 97-11-25 08:48:57 EST, you write:
<<
> Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
> interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
> any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
> so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
> WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
>
> Mike Rice
>>
"Not I," said the fly...
-LD
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:47:58 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:15 PM 11/26/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-11-25 08:48:57 EST, you write:
>
><<
> > Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
> > interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
> > any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
> > so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
> > WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
> >
> > Mike Rice
Yes as soon as i saw this ad i immediately walked to my car and drove to the
mall.
It was 6 am in the morning and i was not yet dressed but i was compelled I
waited for 4 hours outside the little gratelike protective door until an
employee came and unlocked the bottom of it and pulled the grate up
chukkachukkahcukka
i then walked in to the store as i removed my wallet and removed all my
credit cards from the wallet and held them in the palm of my mind with my
arm oustretch palm up and approached the worker there.
Khakis i said
khakis
use my credit cards i have thousands dollar limit please use all
khakis
to make a long story short:
GAP Khakis 8 bucks apiece 5 for 35 20 for 125
email me shipping paid at my end
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:13:03 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Bill Gargan and Beat-L
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:00 -0800 from
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Happy Thanksgiving, James. Sorry to hear about your computer problem. I've de
leted you from the list. You can resubscribe or email me when you're ready and
I'll put you back on.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:39:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In-Reply-To: <199711261802.KAA13431@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to
>>> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial
>>> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until
>>> AFTER the holidays.
>>
>>I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
>
>
>I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!
>
>I love the archive debates.
>
>(And I am not a participant in them--I have no vested interest at all).
>
>I would say that this plea by You_be_Fine would carry a little more weight
>if he wasn't the one who cast the first stone (and answered the first return
>volley as well).
>
>He starts a flame war and then starts saying "let's not have a flame war."
>
>You_Be_Fine, your posts on Kerouac's writings are really good and full of
>info and familiarity and knowledge. I enjoy them.
I must have missed something. I cannot remember seeing anything resembling
a flame from a pro-preservation post. If there has been I'd appreciate
having them forwarded to me because that is a waste of time and energy.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line by 11-27-97
http://www.bookzen.com
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:45:39 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lawlor, William" <wlawlor@UWSP.EDU>
Subject: montgomery, john
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Ah, friends, is it true that John Montgomery died in 1993?
And that new book on Beat women from Serpent's Tail! In what city does
that press exist? and is the book a 1997 publication?
Best,
Bill of the North Woods
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:59:39 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Bill Gargan and Beat-L
Content-Type: text/plain
>Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:00 -0800
>Reply-To:stauffer@PACBELL.NET
>From: James Stauffer <>
>Subject: Birthday Bash
>Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) - The
FREE way to
> access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!
>
If I don't get an answer from you I will call you this evening. I
thought I would give it a try since MailStart works like Hot Mail which
I am using from a computer at work right now.
On Saturday December 6 at 9 p.m. ther will be a surprise birthday party
for Ramah Downtown San Jose at the Germania. I hope you can make it. It
should be fun.
I guess a computer crash is a minor disaster these days. Hopefully you
are on your way to recovery.
Happy Thanksgiving
leon
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:29:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Serpent's Tail ...and montgomery, john
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi all,
I'll let someone else speak to the John Montgomery question.
Regarding the Serpent's Tail book - a gift from my first born on my
birthday a few weeks ago - it is excellent. I've been meaning to post about
it and must have missed any earlier posts about it. My copy was bought here
in Montreal, editor Richard Peabody, High Risk / Serpent'ss Tail books,
published in 1997, London and New York, web site www.serpentstail.com.
A wonderful range of memoir extracts, poetry, and reportage with
nice punchy little bios of the players at the back. Really expanded my
knowledge and appreciateion of these writers, particularly Hettie Jones, Jan
Kerouac, Carolyn Cassady, Joan Haverty Kerouac, Mimi Albert, Diane Di
Prima....all of them and I haven't even dealt with the poetry yet!
Recommended. I really raced through the prose parts.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:32:53 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to
> >> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial
> >> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until
> >> AFTER the holidays.
> >
> >I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
>
> I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!
> _________
easter 1916i have met them at close of day
coming with vivid faces
from counter or desk among grey
eighteenth-century houses.
i have passed with a nod of the head
or polite meaningless words,
or have lingered a while and said
polite meaningless words,
and thought before i had done
of a mocking tale or a gibe
to please a companion
around the fire at the club,
being certain that they and i
but lived where motley is worn:
all changed, changed utterly:
a terrible beauty is born.
that woman's days were spent
in ignorant good-will,
her nights in argument
until her voice grew shrill.
what voice more sweet than hers
when, young and beautiful,
she rode to harriers?
this man had kept a school
and rode our winged horse;
this other his helper and friend
was coming into his force;
he might have won fame in the end,
so sensitive his nature seemed,
so daring and sweet his thought.
this other man i had dreamed
a drunken, vainglorious lout.
he had done most bitter wrong
to someone near my heart,'
yet i number him in the song;
he , too, has resigned his part
in the casual comedy;
he, too, has been changed in his turn,
transformed utterly:
a terrible beauty is born.
hearts with one purpose alone
through summer and winter seem
enchanted to a stone
to trouble the living stream.
the horse that comes from the road,
the rider, the birds that range
from cloud to tumbling cloud,
minute by minute they change;
a shadow of cloud on the stream
changes minute by minute;
a horse-hoof slides on the brim,
and a horse plashes within it;
the long-legged moor-hens dive,
the long-legged moor-cocks call;
miute by minute they live:
the stone's in the midst of it all.
too long a sacrifice
can make a stone of the heart.
o when may it suffice?
that is heaven's part, our part
to murmur name upon name,
as a mother names her child
when sleep at last has come
on limbs that had run wild.
what is it but nightffall?
no, no, not night but death;
was it needless death after all?
for england may keep faith
for all that is done and said.
we know their dream; enough
to know they dream and are dead:
and what if excess of love
bewildered them till they died?
i write it out in a verse-
MacDonagh and MacBride
and Connolly and Pearse
now and in time to be
wherever green is worn,
all changed, changed utterly:
a terrible beauty is born.
an easter poem for thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold, at least
here, in beat-l
have a great day all
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:27:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In a message dated 97-11-26 14:19:04 EST, you write:
<<
i then walked in to the store as i removed my wallet and removed all my
credit cards from the wallet and held them in the palm of my mind with my
arm oustretch palm up and approached the worker there.
Khakis i said
khakis
use my credit cards i have thousands dollar limit please use all
khakis
>>
absolutely fucken hilarious, tim! do you take mastercard?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:50:17 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
In-Reply-To: <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU> says:
>g'day all,
>
[snip]
>i've been an avid reader of kerouac and other beat writers since 1965 when
>as a schoolboy i came across a hardback edition of 'on the road' in one of
>the secondhand bookstores i used to haunt - i think it was the 'girls!
>jazz! booze!' on the cover (predating 'sex'n'drugs'nrock'nroll?) that got
>my attention. learning more here of course.............
[snip]
john, the same feeling for me, thinking about "on the road".
i think back over the past, and remember the on the road as
a story of a salesman (death of a salesman). the american way
of life, religious of course, but keen competition and no
pity for the loser. (Sur...
saluti, rinaldo.
p.s. techno pun nostalgia, the Amiga 1000 was my first serious
puter. i brought it on autumn 1986. now it's gone but a tear
was/is on my eyes...
(to everyone, please excuse me for the digression),
r.
>--
>bye for now,
>#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
>(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
>#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:15:47 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Stuck Inside of Mobile
In-Reply-To: <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
http://bob.nbr.no/dok/bdx/stuck.html
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:50:06 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BCFA7A.965C0B60"
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utterly beautiful marie. thanks for posting this. i vote yes as well. =
this is a time of year when all should be gentle and easy and enjoy. i =
believe the center will hold.
Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!!
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 12:49 PM
Subject: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)
>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>> At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> >> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow =
not to
>> >> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the =
controversial
>> >> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last =
year until
>> >> AFTER the holidays.
>> >
>> >I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
>>
>> I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!
>> _________
>
>easter 1916i have met them at close of day
>coming with vivid faces
>from counter or desk among grey
>eighteenth-century houses.
>i have passed with a nod of the head
>or polite meaningless words,
>or have lingered a while and said
>polite meaningless words,
>and thought before i had done
>of a mocking tale or a gibe
>to please a companion
>around the fire at the club,
>being certain that they and i
>but lived where motley is worn:
>all changed, changed utterly:
>a terrible beauty is born.
>
>that woman's days were spent
>in ignorant good-will,
>her nights in argument
>until her voice grew shrill.
>what voice more sweet than hers
>when, young and beautiful,
>she rode to harriers?
>this man had kept a school
>and rode our winged horse;
>this other his helper and friend
>was coming into his force;
>he might have won fame in the end,
>so sensitive his nature seemed,
>so daring and sweet his thought.
>
>this other man i had dreamed
>a drunken, vainglorious lout.
>he had done most bitter wrong
>to someone near my heart,'
>yet i number him in the song;
>he , too, has resigned his part
>in the casual comedy;
>he, too, has been changed in his turn,
>transformed utterly:
>a terrible beauty is born.
>
>hearts with one purpose alone
>through summer and winter seem
>enchanted to a stone
>to trouble the living stream.
>the horse that comes from the road,
>the rider, the birds that range
>from cloud to tumbling cloud,
>minute by minute they change;
>a shadow of cloud on the stream
>changes minute by minute;
>a horse-hoof slides on the brim,
>and a horse plashes within it;
>the long-legged moor-hens dive,
>the long-legged moor-cocks call;
>miute by minute they live:
>the stone's in the midst of it all.
>
>too long a sacrifice
>can make a stone of the heart.
>o when may it suffice?
>that is heaven's part, our part
>to murmur name upon name,
>as a mother names her child
>when sleep at last has come
>on limbs that had run wild.
>what is it but nightffall?
>no, no, not night but death;
>was it needless death after all?
>
>for england may keep faith
>for all that is done and said.
>we know their dream; enough
>to know they dream and are dead:
>and what if excess of love
>bewildered them till they died?
>i write it out in a verse-
>MacDonagh and MacBride
>and Connolly and Pearse
>now and in time to be
>wherever green is worn,
>all changed, changed utterly:
>a terrible beauty is born.
>
>an easter poem for thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold, at =
least
>here, in beat-l
>have a great day all
>mc
>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>utterly =
beautiful marie. =20
thanks for posting this. i vote yes as well. this is a time =
of year=20
when all should be gentle and easy and enjoy. i believe the center =
will=20
hold.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript =
size=3D5></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>Happy =
Thanksgiving to all of=20
you!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript =
size=3D5></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>ciao, =20
sherri</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =
Marie=20
Countryman <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:country@SOVER.NET">country@SOVER.NET</A>><BR>To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU">BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU</A> <<A =
href=3D"mailto:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU">BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU</A>><BR>=
Date:=20
Wednesday, November 26, 1997 12:49 PM<BR>Subject: a terrible beatuty is =
born(was=20
estate shit)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>>Timothy K. Gallaher=20
wrote:<BR>><BR>>> At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you =
wrote:<BR>>>=20
>> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow =
not=20
to<BR>>> >> participate in anything resembling a flame war =
regarding=20
the controversial<BR>>> >> issues we've all suffered through =
on this=20
newsgroup for the last year until<BR>>> >> AFTER the=20
holidays.<BR>>> ><BR>>> >I vote yes on this =
proposal! =20
But "can the center hold"?<BR>>><BR>>> I vote=20
yes!!!!!!!!!!<BR>>> _________<BR>><BR>>easter 1916i have met =
them at=20
close of day<BR>>coming with vivid faces<BR>>from counter or desk =
among=20
grey<BR>>eighteenth-century houses.<BR>>i have passed with a nod =
of the=20
head<BR>>or polite meaningless words,<BR>>or have lingered a while =
and=20
said<BR>>polite meaningless words,<BR>>and thought before i had=20
done<BR>>of a mocking tale or a gibe<BR>>to please a=20
companion<BR>>around the fire at the club,<BR>>being certain that =
they and=20
i<BR>>but lived where motley is worn:<BR>>all changed, changed=20
utterly:<BR>>a terrible beauty is born.<BR>><BR>>that woman's =
days were=20
spent<BR>>in ignorant good-will,<BR>>her nights in =
argument<BR>>until=20
her voice grew shrill.<BR>>what voice more sweet than =
hers<BR>>when, young=20
and beautiful,<BR>>she rode to harriers?<BR>>this man had kept a=20
school<BR>>and rode our winged horse;<BR>>this other his helper =
and=20
friend<BR>>was coming into his force;<BR>>he might have won fame =
in the=20
end,<BR>>so sensitive his nature seemed,<BR>>so daring and sweet =
his=20
thought.<BR>><BR>>this other man i had dreamed<BR>>a drunken,=20
vainglorious lout.<BR>>he had done most bitter wrong<BR>>to =
someone near=20
my heart,'<BR>>yet i number him in the song;<BR>>he , too, has =
resigned=20
his part<BR>>in the casual comedy;<BR>>he, too, has been changed =
in his=20
turn,<BR>>transformed utterly:<BR>>a terrible beauty is=20
born.<BR>><BR>>hearts with one purpose alone<BR>>through summer =
and=20
winter seem<BR>>enchanted to a stone<BR>>to trouble the living=20
stream.<BR>>the horse that comes from the road,<BR>>the rider, the =
birds=20
that range<BR>>from cloud to tumbling cloud,<BR>>minute by minute =
they=20
change;<BR>>a shadow of cloud on the stream<BR>>changes minute by=20
minute;<BR>>a horse-hoof slides on the brim,<BR>>and a horse =
plashes=20
within it;<BR>>the long-legged moor-hens dive,<BR>>the long-legged =
moor-cocks call;<BR>>miute by minute they live:<BR>>the stone's in =
the=20
midst of it all.<BR>><BR>>too long a sacrifice<BR>>can make a =
stone of=20
the heart.<BR>>o when may it suffice?<BR>>that is heaven's part, =
our=20
part<BR>>to murmur name upon name,<BR>>as a mother names her=20
child<BR>>when sleep at last has come<BR>>on limbs that had run=20
wild.<BR>>what is it but nightffall?<BR>>no, no, not night but=20
death;<BR>>was it needless death after all?<BR>><BR>>for =
england may=20
keep faith<BR>>for all that is done and said.<BR>>we know their =
dream;=20
enough<BR>>to know they dream and are dead:<BR>>and what if excess =
of=20
love<BR>>bewildered them till they died?<BR>>i write it out in a=20
verse-<BR>>MacDonagh and MacBride<BR>>and Connolly and =
Pearse<BR>>now=20
and in time to be<BR>>wherever green is worn,<BR>>all changed, =
changed=20
utterly:<BR>>a terrible beauty is born.<BR>><BR>>an easter poem =
for=20
thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold, at least<BR>>here, =
in=20
beat-l<BR>>have a great day all<BR>>mc<BR>></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BCFA7A.965C0B60--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:03:32 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>In a message dated 97-11-26 14:19:04 EST, you write:
>
><<
> i then walked in to the store as i removed my wallet and removed all my
> credit cards from the wallet and held them in the palm of my mind with my
> arm oustretch palm up and approached the worker there.
>
> Khakis i said
>
> khakis
>
> use my credit cards i have thousands dollar limit please use all
>
> khakis
>
> >>
>absolutely fucken hilarious, tim! do you take mastercard?
you got it !!1
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:48:40 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: montgomery, john
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
William Lawlor wrote:
> Ah, friends, is it true that John Montgomery died in 1993?
Yes, sad but true. But of course his writing and books shine on...
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:53:40 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199711260357070867@classic.msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi there Sherri, on 26-Nov-97 you wrote...
>welcome John. how bout telling us about thos articles you have? ciao,
ahh, i will i will.
in the meantime, i suspect there isn't a suffocating rigidity in here, but
can i ask about certain protocols that people or the listmangagers may have
devised to allow some semblance of courtesy and consideration to masquerade
benignly as spontaneous bop prosody and freewheeeling chaos
do people get annoyed if the posting you're replying to is quoted entirely,
with a "Yeah! me too" appended to the end - other lists i am on train you
out of it pretty quickly and gently. ( Sherri, /you/ did this, but if you
think this is directed at you, you're a bad bad woman :-) )
what about replying to the list when it may have been smarter to reply
direct to sender
and what about not changing the subject title to reflect that youre not
really replying but starting a new thread, but lazily 'borrowed' the
address?
im not a fascist, just trying to get along heeheeheee ! finding this list,
i feel like a desert hyena who's tumbled into an oasis, and i want to swim
here along time - i've read so much here already that's brought back that
heady feeling i used to have as i read the beat writings- god it is so
tempting to contact some old friends and remind them of their putdowns (not
to mention Time mag, who relentlessy wrote off or patronised each novel
that got published.
ps thanks to those who sent a welcome
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:05:45 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Pullicino wrote:
>
> Hi there Sherri, on 26-Nov-97 you wrote...
>
> >welcome John. how bout telling us about thos articles you have? ciao,
> ahh, i will i will.
> in the meantime, i suspect there isn't a suffocating rigidity in here, but
> can i ask about certain protocols that people or the listmangagers may have
> devised to allow some semblance of courtesy and consideration to masquerade
> benignly as spontaneous bop prosody and freewheeeling chaos
>
hey man, free wheeling chaos man, like it. cool, dig it, me too. I got
a back channel once that told me to be more careful of my spelling. I
dug it man. now the only thing i would like to add is i think everyone
should only post interesting things, nothing boring.
P
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:03:29 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JOKE:INSTALLMENT #1
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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There was a strict trappist monastrry. The monks would take turns
saying only one thing at beakfast once a year. It was something like
the ideal Beat-L would be.
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:12:43 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JOKE: INSTALLMENT #2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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When it comes time for one of the monks to take a turn saying something,
he says: "The rolls are nice and fresh this morning."
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:49:08 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: more yeats (and yeah, i know it's off topic
MIME-Version: 1.0
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the second coming
turning and turning in the widening gyre
the falcon cannot hear the falconer:
things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
the blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
the ceremony of innocence is drowned;
the best lack all conviction, while the worst
are full of passionate intensity.
surely some revelation is at hand;
surely the second coming is at hand;
the second coming! hardly are those words out
when a vast image out of spiritus mundi
troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert
a shape with lion body and the head of a man
a gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
reel the shadows of the indignant desert birds
the darkness drops again; but now i know
the twenty centuries of stonly sleep
were vest to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
and what rough beast its hour com round at last,
slouches toward bethlehem to be born? 1921
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:58:08 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
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thanks sherri. i think we all need a little dip into yeats to keep us
honest. i just posted the widening gyre poem as well.
and it's two weeks until i get on that train!!! yahoooo!!!!!!!!!
i'm already packing !
marie
sherri wrote:
> utterly beautiful marie. thanks for posting this. i vote yes as
> well. this is a time of year when all should be gentle and easy and
> enjoy. i believe the center will hold. Happy Thanksgiving to all of
> you!! ciao, sherri-----Original Message-----
> From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 12:49 PM
> Subject: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)>Timothy K.
> Gallaher wrote:
> >
> >> At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >> >> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow
> not to
> >> >> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the
> controversial
> >> >> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last
> year until
> >> >> AFTER the holidays.
> >> >
> >> >I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
> >>
> >> I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!
> >> _________
> >
> >easter 1916i have met them at close of day
> >coming with vivid faces
> >from counter or desk among grey
> >eighteenth-century houses.
> >i have passed with a nod of the head
> >or polite meaningless words,
> >or have lingered a while and said
> >polite meaningless words,
> >and thought before i had done
> >of a mocking tale or a gibe
> >to please a companion
> >around the fire at the club,
> >being certain that they and i
> >but lived where motley is worn:
> >all changed, changed utterly:
> >a terrible beauty is born.
> >
> >that woman's days were spent
> >in ignorant good-will,
> >her nights in argument
> >until her voice grew shrill.
> >what voice more sweet than hers
> >when, young and beautiful,
> >she rode to harriers?
> >this man had kept a school
> >and rode our winged horse;
> >this other his helper and friend
> >was coming into his force;
> >he might have won fame in the end,
> >so sensitive his nature seemed,
> >so daring and sweet his thought.
> >
> >this other man i had dreamed
> >a drunken, vainglorious lout.
> >he had done most bitter wrong
> >to someone near my heart,'
> >yet i number him in the song;
> >he , too, has resigned his part
> >in the casual comedy;
> >he, too, has been changed in his turn,
> >transformed utterly:
> >a terrible beauty is born.
> >
> >hearts with one purpose alone
> >through summer and winter seem
> >enchanted to a stone
> >to trouble the living stream.
> >the horse that comes from the road,
> >the rider, the birds that range
> >from cloud to tumbling cloud,
> >minute by minute they change;
> >a shadow of cloud on the stream
> >changes minute by minute;
> >a horse-hoof slides on the brim,
> >and a horse plashes within it;
> >the long-legged moor-hens dive,
> >the long-legged moor-cocks call;
> >miute by minute they live:
> >the stone's in the midst of it all.
> >
> >too long a sacrifice
> >can make a stone of the heart.
> >o when may it suffice?
> >that is heaven's part, our part
> >to murmur name upon name,
> >as a mother names her child
> >when sleep at last has come
> >on limbs that had run wild.
> >what is it but nightffall?
> >no, no, not night but death;
> >was it needless death after all?
> >
> >for england may keep faith
> >for all that is done and said.
> >we know their dream; enough
> >to know they dream and are dead:
> >and what if excess of love
> >bewildered them till they died?
> >i write it out in a verse-
> >MacDonagh and MacBride
> >and Connolly and Pearse
> >now and in time to be
> >wherever green is worn,
> >all changed, changed utterly:
> >a terrible beauty is born.
> >
> >an easter poem for thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold,
> at least
> >here, in beat-l
> >have a great day all
> >mc
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 08:30:04 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JOKE: INSTALLNEBT #3
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The next year it was the second monk's turn to speak. He said, "Pass
the butter, please."
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:13:26 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: L'angelo caduto.
In-Reply-To: <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>
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carissimi,
the book "Angelheaded Hipster. A Life of Jack Kerouac"
by Steve Turner, in italian it's called
"Jack Kerouac. L'angelo caduto" translated by Alessandra Osti.
I think it's a worth purcase.
strangely (?) in the Feltrinelli's bookstore chain both J. Kerouac and
W. S. Burroughs are arranged in the italian literature shelf.
A. Ginsberg's books on the contrary are arranged precisely.
saluti,
Rinaldo.
* Tristessa, maybe Keroauc's sly homage to Bonjour Tristesse
(which had made Francoise Sagan a star overnight in 1955)
--Aram Saroyan, foreword to Big Sur
*
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:56:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)
Marie- that was a so beautiful poem- especially hit me after read Michael
Collins book no too long ago and then saw movie. great work! GT
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:47:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: L'angelo caduto.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971127191326.006884f8@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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AngelHeaded Hipser has the best pictures. Its a costly purchase but well
worth it.
~Nancy
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> carissimi,
>
> the book "Angelheaded Hipster. A Life of Jack Kerouac"
> by Steve Turner, in italian it's called
> "Jack Kerouac. L'angelo caduto" translated by Alessandra Osti.
> I think it's a worth purcase.
>
> strangely (?) in the Feltrinelli's bookstore chain both J. Kerouac and
> W. S. Burroughs are arranged in the italian literature shelf.
>
> A. Ginsberg's books on the contrary are arranged precisely.
>
> saluti,
> Rinaldo.
> * Tristessa, maybe Keroauc's sly homage to Bonjour Tristesse
> (which had made Francoise Sagan a star overnight in 1955)
> --Aram Saroyan, foreword to Big Sur
> *
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:58:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly page updated!
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Happy Thanksgiving all! We have updated the page with more news. Bob Kealing
of Orlando, Florida writes us about his happening atJack and Memere's
cottage of 1957-8.
Go to
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks! Paul....
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:15:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:53:40 +1000 from