riot gear, ready to arrest the environmentalists. OK, > alot of the

 environmentalists are the granola type,  but the cops has > gas masks on their

 belts, batons in hands, and face shields. What the > hell are we fighting for.

> I thought this stuff went out in the 60s. It's 10:00 pm. Do you

> know what the fuck your government is doing?

***

Perhaps we were just practice'n. The gun battles between police and drug

dealers in inner cities across Amerika is war! It is people fighting for

their right to participate in the economy as it allows them; deals them

that little piece of turf no one wants; and then turns to wage war

against them for trying to work at the only job it allows or gives up

that can pay all the bills, buy all hierarchical needs--because rich-ass

folks like this Mr. Hurwitz (Maxxam corporation/Pacific Lumber) feels

selling drugs means something not right and has the power enough to

force his will failing to comprehend a larger picture! --never knew

Bigger Thomas or even heard of him!

***

What will folks do when they seize their grandparents' house for failure

to pay property tax payments five times higher than their monthly

mortgage payment back when they still made 'em? They had too much pride

to say anything until its too late. How far will folks go to prevent

that seizure? --to prevent the system from disallowing those old hard

work'n folks to participate in the system at the simple level of

remaining in a quaint house they worked and sweat  years and years to

own and live in during just these years????

***

Examples exist everywhere when we look! Yet most worry most about what

product acquisition they'll make next; what mind massage will they watch

next; what next, pop corn or chips?

***

If the environmentalists numbered 5,000, how many riot gear-equipped

cops would show up? National guard? Who in the armed services will join

which side?

***

Don't think the revolution awaits in the future. It rages daily in the

streets. Millions of folks do not get a chance to participate

economically and they fight gun battles over territory with one another

and the system. And if you can't eat the 2000 year old tree, it assumes

less priority to the millions who do not eat routinely. They fight for

food--for the right to eat! Or to work to earn enough dollars to eat!

All priority levels exist intertwined confusing the overall perspective

provided you see it through the NBC or ABC or CBS or CNN nightly portal

presentation like most do!

***

The grandparents hate the inner city war, the drug dealers, drug users,

the police, and the damn hippies in the forest. The drug dealers can't

trust anyone. The poor see the steaks in the grocery window and smell

the BBQ cook'n. All the rest through their Ottica Meloni's see succulent

nipples protruding from her Gianni Versace dress, or speculate about the

size of his Dockers Kakki dick, hidden . . .

***

I know what most of the cops are doing, thinking about their next

product acquisition like all the rest . . . pop corn or chips

***

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:02:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac in Rocky Mount, NC

 

i'm working on a home page for both, Lowell and Rocky Mount.  each will have

a bunch of photographs and text.  for right now thou...one can go to

http://members.aol.com/KerouacNC.index.html

and read about Kerouac's life and times in Rocky Mount, North Carolina.

enjoy.

 

john j dorfner

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:13:31 +0530

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      36th anniversary on terra firma

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Full Moon tonight

and anniversary of my birth

36 years

give or take a century

someone asks me

"well, do you FEEEEEEEEEEEEL older?"

tough question you know

hear it

every year

every year someone's gonna ask

do you you feeeeeel older and

kind of like when asked

how do you feeeeeel

everyday

on street corners from

this person or that person

that don't

wait for the answer

cuz they didn't even realize

that they'd

asked the question

and so

the answer is

yes

i feel a distinct

impression

that i'm about

a day older

give or take

and wonder about the

correspondence of

birthday and full moon

and

certain wonderful Lunacy

somewhere in

the universe today.

 

[Soundtrack: two boomboxes one playing Pink Floyd the other playing

George Clinton]

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:26:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      bardo

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Saturday September 20

Bardo is a tibetan buddist tradition.  Approximately 49 days after

death.

 images and or objects associated with wsb will be burned.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:53:52 +0530

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: bardo

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> Saturday September 20

> Bardo is a tibetan buddist tradition.  Approximately 49 days after

> death.

>  images and or objects associated with wsb will be burned.

> p

 

I'll be in Disembodied errand to Denver/Evergreen/Boulder/Aurora so burn

a few for me....

        I'm visiting the Bardo before and after and will be certain to sweep

the floor

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:28:46 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      rights & permissions

 

I doubt that any author is ever consulted when Cliff or Monarch notes

decides to publish a volume on his or her work.  These are critical

works that include paraphrase and biographical and critical commentary.

Rights and permissions aren't necessary.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:27:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: bardo

In-Reply-To:  <341E7B04.79F3@sunflower.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Saturday September 20

> Bardo is a tibetan buddist tradition.  Approximately 49 days after

> death.

>  images and or objects associated with wsb will be burned.

> p

> 

What is this about? What's being burned? And why? Please explain.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:16:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Feng Yan <xbchen@SUN.NANKAI.EDU.CN>

Subject:      MoonFestival

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Sitting by the Net, guys, have you just looked out of windows

to take an eye on the Moon? It's round and round, right?

Tonight, Sep. 16, 1997, we are celebrating MoonFestival here.

A special day, families are long for getting together,

travelers'd be homesick. Folks take watching Moon

as a great pleasure, wherever they are and however they are going on.

A hope deep in hearts is that family is as round as today's Moon.

 

Thus the Moon you see now has received billions of lenient gaze

last few hours. The road connecting Earth and Moon is so busy

and is filled up with affection. You will never be refused

if you wanta take a ride to Moon.

 

JK was getting his "the greatest ride in my life"

from Gothenburg to Cheyenne

under cold shining star

he bought boys on the truck whisky

"You can have a couple of shots!", boy

 

Now,in warm moonlight

folks on the list

would receive the old Chinese feeling

and a piece of mooncake

digitally

 

Ciao

 

Yan

We share the Moon.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:24:07 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      bardo

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------697B57345597"

 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

 

--------------697B57345597

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Image, picture

object, thing,

death, travel

49 days, time

buddist, seeing

burning, energy tranferance

neal which part didn't you understand,

how should i elaborate, which direction

 

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--------------697B57345597--

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:29:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re[2]: knowing the lingo (was: A funny thing happened...)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     Goa is a region in India.  It was a very popular destination for

     hippies in the late 60s and early 70s and had a huge drug scene.  I've

     read one book on the subject, Goa Freaks, by a woman with the first

     name of Cleo but her last name escapes me now (scary, because I own

     the book)...just wondering if anyone on the list has ever been there.

     There's possibly some Beat tie in (Ginsberg?) but I don't want to tie

     the list up with too much discussion of it.

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt h.

        mhannan@usoc.org

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: knowing the lingo (was: A funny thing happened...)

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    9/15/97 4:15 PM

 

 

At 04:57 PM 9/15/97 -0400, you wrote:

 

>     While I'm on the subject, did anyone on the list ever travel to Goa?

>     I'd like to chat with you backchannel if you did.

 

What is Goa?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:33:20 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: bardo

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> Image, picture

> object, thing,

> death, travel

> 49 days, time

> buddist, seeing

> burning, energy tranferance

> neal which part didn't you understand,

> how should i elaborate, which direction

> 

>     ---------------------------------------------------------------Patricia,

 

My question is what does it symbolize or do?  Does it have something to

do with the journey of the soul?  And does this burning of possessions

give energy to the soul in its journey in whatever dimension it might be

in now after death?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:26:59 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: kerouac on william f. buckley? -Reply

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:36 PM 9/16/97 -0500, you wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, MARK NIGON wrote:

> 

>> Hi Derek,

>> 

>> Some of the interview is used in the documentary "What Happened to

>> Kerouc" by Lewis MacAdams and Richard Lerner.  The blurbs used in this

>> doumentary will answer the questions you've asked about though.  Sorry,

>> I can't help you with locating a transcript.

>> 

>> -mark nigon

>> 

>> mark_nigon@mail.campbell-mithun.com

>> 

>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> 

>> >>> "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA> 09/15/97

>> 04:47pm >>>

>> does anyone out there have a copy (VHS) or a transcription (even better)

>> of kerouac's appearance on william f. buckley's "firing line"? i would

>> really appreciate any help you all might be able to provide. (curious

>> abt

>> kerouac's comments concerning links b/t beats and hippies as well as

>> his comments abt ginsberg and gays, etc - and ive heard A

>> LOT abt this particular interview and would like to check it out myself)

>> THANKS ya'll

>> yrs

>> derek

>> 

>Mark, Derek and others,

> 

>I am also interested in Kerouac's comments. Anyone could post some here?

>And your opinion?

> 

>Ciao

>Yan

> 

>We share the Moon.

> 

 

Yeah, happy moon festival, y'all.

 

I saw this movie a long time ago and I remember that this Buckly show was

the one where Kerouac stood up and sang the Slim Gaillard line Flat Foot

Floogie with the Floy Floy.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:34:07 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 36th anniversary on terra firma

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:13 AM 9/16/97 +0530, you wrote:

>Full Moon tonight

>and anniversary of my birth

>36 years

 

 

No way!!!!?????

 

 

It's my birthday too yeah.

 

Well my birthday's really in october but it the Chinese calender it's my

birthday.

 

Same rat year too.

 

Amazing.

 

I thought this made me the Moon King but maybe you are also the Moon King.

 

Happy Birthday David.

 

 

>give or take a century

>someone asks me

>"well, do you FEEEEEEEEEEEEL older?"

>tough question you know

>hear it

>every year

>every year someone's gonna ask

>do you you feeeeeel older and

>kind of like when asked

>how do you feeeeeel

>everyday

>on street corners from

>this person or that person

>that don't

>wait for the answer

>cuz they didn't even realize

>that they'd

>asked the question

>and so

>the answer is

>yes

>i feel a distinct

>impression

>that i'm about

>a day older

>give or take

>and wonder about the

>correspondence of

>birthday and full moon

>and

>certain wonderful Lunacy

>somewhere in

>the universe today.

> 

>[Soundtrack: two boomboxes one playing Pink Floyd the other playing

>George Clinton]

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:42:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: MoonFestival

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

My daughter and I were looking at the Moon Sunday night, a couple days

early.  It was hard to do because all the clouds covering it.  She's three

and as long as she's been able to talk we've been looking at the moon.

Sunday you could see the glow of the full moon spreading out through the

clouds but not the moon, until if you looked long enough a hole in the

clouds would pass by and the moon in all it's near full glory and brightness

would pop through.  "There's the moon".

 

And when it went back behind the cloud, "Moon gao gao?",  that's local baby

talk/english for "moon went to sleep?"  No, today the Moon is awake but it's

under the covers.

 

Today I hope there are no clouds to block your view, and if so I hope the

clouds are moth eaten and swlirling.

 

Don't think of Un Chien Andalou, but I couldn't help it later.

 

 

 

At 10:16 PM 9/16/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Sitting by the Net, guys, have you just looked out of windows

>to take an eye on the Moon? It's round and round, right?

>Tonight, Sep. 16, 1997, we are celebrating MoonFestival here.

>A special day, families are long for getting together,

>travelers'd be homesick. Folks take watching Moon

>as a great pleasure, wherever they are and however they are going on.

>A hope deep in hearts is that family is as round as today's Moon.

> 

>Thus the Moon you see now has received billions of lenient gaze

>last few hours. The road connecting Earth and Moon is so busy

>and is filled up with affection. You will never be refused

>if you wanta take a ride to Moon.

> 

>JK was getting his "the greatest ride in my life"

>from Gothenburg to Cheyenne

>under cold shining star

>he bought boys on the truck whisky

>"You can have a couple of shots!", boy

> 

>Now,in warm moonlight

>folks on the list

>would receive the old Chinese feeling

>and a piece of mooncake

>digitally

> 

>Ciao

> 

>Yan

>We share the Moon.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:06:36 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dufour <dufour@ULISSE.IT>

Subject:      R: bardo

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

Thanks Patricia for the great, intense photo of WSB and for your sharp,

direct poetry.

 

Ciao !

Francesco

 

----------

> Da: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

> A: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Oggetto: bardo

> Data: martedl 16 settembre 1997 16.24

> 

> Image, picture

> object, thing,

> death, travel

> 49 days, time

> buddist, seeing

> burning, energy tranferance

> neal which part didn't you understand,

> how should i elaborate, which direction

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:42:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Wes Lundburg <lundburg@TCPNETS.COM>

Subject:      Re: kerouac and cliff's notes.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Richard...

 

Isn't this true of any works, both literary and musical?  I certainly agree

that jazz needs a comprehensive ear to fully appreciate it, and I'm all for

reading all of JK, not condensed versions.  But, the point you make here is

no different for any other work of art.  So, in short, ban all Cliff

Notes... even though they have the "surgeon general's warning" at the

front!  What author WOULD approve of their work being condensed?  I also

agree with whoever posted the bit about using cliff notes in her past...

there are some other helps in those cliffs notes besides the summary.

 

---Wes

 

----------

> From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: kerouac and cliff's notes.

> Date: Monday, September 15, 1997 6:54 PM

> 

> > >

> > If otr is taught, it is certainly cliff-noted, isn't it.  The only

> > way it wouldn't be is if the Kerouac estate said no, or is that

> > true?  Don't really know myself.

> >

> > Mike Rice

> >

> There is no doubt, none, in my mind, that if Kerouac had known of Cliff

> Notes when he was alive, he would have written specific instructions to

> never give permission for any of his works, except  *maybe* Town and the

> City, to be cliff noted.

> 

> Kerouac saw himself as a poet, literary jazz musician, and in jazz you

> dont distill notes, or attempt to explain jazz in anything less than the

> full form.  You cant explain a Charlie Parker record by only listening to

> a few notes.  Some things cant be explained that simply.

> 

> RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:00:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MARK NIGON <Mark_Nigon@CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM>

Subject:      Re: kerouac on william f. buckley? -Reply

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hello all,

 

Well, what I remember is that Kerouac was drunk and seemed very bored or

irritated...Slumped in his chair...eyes closed while he

answered...smoking a cigar.  He said the Vietnam war was a conspiracy to

get jeeps into the country.  He explained that the Beat Generation

originally intended to be a movement of beatitude and piety but the

media used the words like "Beat Insurrection" and "Beat Mutiny" and the

movement was subsequently taken over by hoodlums.  He also said the

hippies were "good kids" who were following in the his (Kerouac's)

footsteps.  And your right Tim, Kerouac cracked himself up answereing a

Buckly question with the Slim Gaillard line.  That's what comes to mind

right off the bat.  I'll have to watch it again.

 

When I first saw it, I had read Kerouac and knew about the myth

surrounding his life, still, I couldn't help but see a man that had

given up long ago.  He seemed to be a shell of a man grasping for

answers but truly uninterested in everything.  Made me relook at Kerouac

the man.  That there is my opinion.

 

Good day.

 

mark

 

mark_nigon@mail.campbell-mithun.com

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

>>> "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU> 09/16/97 10:26am >>>

At 01:36 PM 9/16/97 -0500, you wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, MARK NIGON wrote:

> 

>> Hi Derek,

>> 

>> Some of the interview is used in the documentary "What Happened to

>> Kerouc" by Lewis MacAdams and Richard Lerner.  The blurbs used in

this

>> doumentary will answer the questions you've asked about though.

Sorry,

>> I can't help you with locating a transcript.

>> 

>> -mark nigon

>> 

>> mark_nigon@mail.campbell-mithun.com

>> 

>> 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> 

>> >>> "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA> 09/15/97

>> 04:47pm >>>

>> does anyone out there have a copy (VHS) or a transcription (even

better)

>> of kerouac's appearance on william f. buckley's "firing line"? i

would

>> really appreciate any help you all might be able to provide. (curious

>> abt

>> kerouac's comments concerning links b/t beats and hippies as well as

>> his comments abt ginsberg and gays, etc - and ive heard A

>> LOT abt this particular interview and would like to check it out

myself)

>> THANKS ya'll

>> yrs

>> derek

>> 

>Mark, Derek and others,

> 

>I am also interested in Kerouac's comments. Anyone could post some

here?

>And your opinion?

> 

>Ciao

>Yan

> 

>We share the Moon.

> 

 

Yeah, happy moon festival, y'all.

 

I saw this movie a long time ago and I remember that this Buckly show

was

the one where Kerouac stood up and sang the Slim Gaillard line Flat Foot

Floogie with the Floy Floy.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:00:54 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Mime format

 

As most of you on the list have noticed, mime format and photographs do

not travel well on Beat-l.  It might be better to mount such files on a

web page and provide listmembers with the url so t hat they can download

them to their hard drives and read them with their browers.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:55:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: bardo

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane Carter wrote:

> My question is what does it symbolize or do?  Does it have something to do

 with the journey of the soul?  And does this burning of possessions

> give energy to the soul in its journey in whatever dimension it might be

> in now after death?

> DC

 

more information at clip information from

http://dove.mtx.net.au/~jrowse/dead/tibdead.html

 

     The Bardo Thodol, or Tibetan Book of the Dead, is an ancient

     text that was first put into written form by the legendary Padma

     Sambhava in the 8th century A.D. Translated, Bardo Thodol

     means "liberation by hearing on the after death plane". The book

     acts as a guide for the dead during the state that intervenes

     death and the next rebirth. This intermediate state is called the

     Bardo and lasts for forty nine days.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:40:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: 36th anniversary on terra firma

In-Reply-To:  <341DE443.3B99@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Happy Birthday David.

 

Tell me, Do you feel any older? (choke)

 

I just rolled over # 67 on 09-01--Labor Day and it aint stopped since.

 

Morrow sent The Herbert Hunche Reader. I'd never read anything by him.

Started last night and felt close to him. I've got the basics on-line at

BookZen at:

 

http://www.bookzen.com/books/068815266Xb.html.

 

His stories, so casual and positive, but self deprecating seem touch so

much.... But I've just started.

 

Please feel free to share any thoughts about Huncke with me--and that goes

for anyone on the List. Just type HUNCKE on the subject line.

 

Couple of thought about birthdays:

 

I've always found it interesting that some families really get into

celebrating birthdays for young and old alike while some only do so for

young children.  Those who celebrate--equal treatment to all--with

elaborate cooking, baking, gifts, etc. seemed to be a more close-knit--a

tighter family unit. Happier.

 

Over the past 60 years I've watched the birthday celebrations in my

extended family almost disappear. I'm first generation, so growing up the

immediate and extended family surrounding and supporting Gramma, were very

close.

 

To my great surprise, many years later, while in prison in the 60s (and

uncle was so pissed i was sent to the Federal joint at Leavenworth as a

first offender in a population where the average prisoner had five previous

incarcertions)  I found that the prisoners, and they were a tough lot, went

to great lengths to celebrate brithdays. Small gifts, handmade items,

smoke, books, etc. were given. Cards would arrive from the families of

fellow prisoners who had tipped off wives, mothers, friends.

 

The first time it happened to me caught me by surprise. I'd observed it,

but being so green--a "fish" in the venacular--I avoided much socialising,

didn't ask questions, didn't get into the endless I-can-top-that story

telling. As it turned out it was respected behavior. It was, "doing your

own time."

 

So birthdays, in a harsh, repressive, "time" oriented environment that was

completely alien to free-world home and family, seemed to provide an

opportunity for prisoners to become, briefly,  a "family."

 

Again, Happy Birthday David...and do you feel any................Argh.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

 

                         Authors can display their books F R E E !

                                      http://www.bookzen.com

                                  22,000 visitors since July 1,'96

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:36:11 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: 36th anniversary on terra firma

In-Reply-To:  <341DE443.3B99@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        =========================

        Happy birthday  to YOU!

        HAPPY   BIRTHDAY        DAVID!

 

 

 

        WISHING YOU ALL THE BEST.

 

        signers:

 

        Dr Ink

        in the name

        of

        REVERSE ENTROPY ENGINE Ltd.

 

        &

 

        Duracell

        in the name

        of

        THE TIME MACHINE Corporation

 

        &

 

        Rinaldo Rasa.

        ===========================

 

 

>Full Moon tonight

>and anniversary of my birth

>36 years

[...]

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:46:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac in Rocky Mount

 

i typed in the wrong address

correct address <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/KerouacNC/index.html">Kerouac'

s Rocky Mount, N.C.</A>

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:57:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: 36th anniversary on terra firma

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> 

>         =========================

>         Happy birthday  to YOU!

>         HAPPY   BIRTHDAY        DAVID!

> 

>         WISHING YOU ALL THE BEST.

> 

>         signers:

> 

>         Dr Ink

>         in the name

>         of

>         REVERSE ENTROPY ENGINE Ltd.

> 

>         &

> 

>         Duracell

>         in the name

>         of

>         THE TIME MACHINE Corporation

> 

>         &

> 

>         Rinaldo Rasa.

>         ===========================

> 

> >Full Moon tonight

> >and anniversary of my birth

> >36 years

> [...]

> >david rhaesa

> >salina, Kansas

 

 

Virgos thrive

patricia 47  no 49 no 107  no 24  o forget, my dear one (BOB) and i

begun the same age, since we married sometime i am older sometimes he is

older, silly guy insists it stays the same.

9/8/48

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:08:18 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: kerouac on william f. buckley? -Reply

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

A couple other things I remember.  He also said the Beat movement was taken

over by hoodlums, but he also added communists as I recall.

 

And he made a statement: "I got a ticket the other day".

 

Buckley played the perfect straightman.  "A ticket? For what?"

 

"For decay".

 

It got laughs.

 

At 11:00 AM 9/16/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Hello all,

> 

>Well, what I remember is that Kerouac was drunk and seemed very bored or

>irritated...Slumped in his chair...eyes closed while he

>answered...smoking a cigar.  He said the Vietnam war was a conspiracy to

>get jeeps into the country.  He explained that the Beat Generation

>originally intended to be a movement of beatitude and piety but the

>media used the words like "Beat Insurrection" and "Beat Mutiny" and the

>movement was subsequently taken over by hoodlums.  He also said the

>hippies were "good kids" who were following in the his (Kerouac's)

>footsteps.  And your right Tim, Kerouac cracked himself up answereing a

>Buckly question with the Slim Gaillard line.  That's what comes to mind

>right off the bat.  I'll have to watch it again.

> 

>When I first saw it, I had read Kerouac and knew about the myth

>surrounding his life, still, I couldn't help but see a man that had

>given up long ago.  He seemed to be a shell of a man grasping for

>answers but truly uninterested in everything.  Made me relook at Kerouac

>the man.  That there is my opinion.

> 

>Good day.

> 

>mark

> 

>mark_nigon@mail.campbell-mithun.com

> 

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

> 

>>>> "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU> 09/16/97 10:26am >>>

>At 01:36 PM 9/16/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, MARK NIGON wrote:

>> 

>>> Hi Derek,

>>> 

>>> Some of the interview is used in the documentary "What Happened to

>>> Kerouc" by Lewis MacAdams and Richard Lerner.  The blurbs used in

>this

>>> doumentary will answer the questions you've asked about though.

>Sorry,

>>> I can't help you with locating a transcript.

>>> 

>>> -mark nigon

>>> 

>>> mark_nigon@mail.campbell-mithun.com

>>> 

>>> 

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>> 

>>> >>> "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA> 09/15/97

>>> 04:47pm >>>

>>> does anyone out there have a copy (VHS) or a transcription (even

>better)

>>> of kerouac's appearance on william f. buckley's "firing line"? i

>would

>>> really appreciate any help you all might be able to provide. (curious

>>> abt

>>> kerouac's comments concerning links b/t beats and hippies as well as

>>> his comments abt ginsberg and gays, etc - and ive heard A

>>> LOT abt this particular interview and would like to check it out

>myself)

>>> THANKS ya'll

>>> yrs

>>> derek

>>> 

>>Mark, Derek and others,

>> 

>>I am also interested in Kerouac's comments. Anyone could post some

>here?

>>And your opinion?

>> 

>>Ciao

>>Yan

>> 

>>We share the Moon.

>> 

> 

>Yeah, happy moon festival, y'all.

> 

>I saw this movie a long time ago and I remember that this Buckly show

>was

>the one where Kerouac stood up and sang the Slim Gaillard line Flat Foot

>Floogie with the Floy Floy.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:13:43 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dufour <dufour@ULISSE.IT>

Subject:      R: 36th anniversary on terra firma

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

Happy birthday David !!!

 

Ciao !

Francesco

 

----------

> Da: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

> A: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Oggetto: 36th anniversary on terra firma

> Data: martedl 16 settembre 1997 3.43

> 

> Full Moon tonight

> ...in

> the universe today.

> 

> [Soundtrack: two boomboxes one playing Pink Floyd the other playing

> George Clinton]

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:28:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "William N. Gay" <wgay@zoo.uvm.edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "William N. Gay" <wgay@ZOO.UVM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: R: 36th anniversary on terra firma

In-Reply-To:  <199709161819.TAA04263@ns.ulisse.it>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

     All this talk about birthdays and the moon is great. I woke up this

a.m. with the full moon shining in the window. There was a cool breeze

blowing in, and for a moment I thought I was in the backseat of this '66

Galaxie 500 I used to have years ago (and often slept in). I must have had

a similar experience awakening to the moon back in my early twenties, as

the experience was familiar and quite pleasant.

     Happy birthday, David, and all other Virgos on this list. Mine was

8/29, same as Bird's.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:42:15 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>

Subject:      Re: Hypertext notes (& re: kerouac and cliff's notes)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

----------

From:  Wes Lundburg [SMTP:lundburg@TCPNETS.COM]

Sent:  16. september 1997 17:43

To:  BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:  Hypertext notes (& re: kerouac and cliff's notes)

 

As a teacher I am supposed to be against Monarch, York, Coles Notes - =

and I am - but at the same time, if the reader would never otherwise =

have bothered to read the original, it can't be all bad. Now most of =

those of my students who don't read what they're supposed to might never =

get around to read the original if they passed the first chance by - but =

there's always a chance that the Notes edition might tempt them to go =

looking for the original - and that must be good !

As a student I was grateful for the "help" in the Notes, and well did I =

know that it wasn't the real thing.

And what about the notes offered in hypertext ? For instance the =

hypertext used for Dharma Bums in the CDROMnibus. I thought it was =

brilliant ! Reading a CD_ROM is never going to happen, it's too much of =

a strain on my eyes. I prefer the book version, and I always will. But =

studying the hypertext notes bit by bit every once in a while gave me =

tremendous enjoyment - and taught me something about things I had never =

given thought to before.

So much so, in fact, that I have started a project on hypertext using =

the Beats as a starting point. This project, which will be located at =

(http://www.systime.dk/fagbank/engelsk/beatgen/beatgen.htm) ,=20

is not online yet, but it should be in a couple of days time (it's out =

of my hands, unfortunately). I've probably been inspired by each and =

everyone who has contributed to BEAT-L since May when I joined the list, =

so if you feel like stopping by on "The Danish Pathway to the Beat =

Generation - An Educational Site" you'd be welcome - as will your =

comments, even if you should choose to crucify me for turning hypertext =

into the Monarch Notes of Cyberspace. Comments are welcomed at:

beat@systime.dk (which is the address of the site) or

jenskoch@post1.tele.dk=20

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:25:06 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>

Subject:      I  HONESTLY DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED!

Comments: To: "lundburg@tCPMET.COM" <lundburg@tCPMET.COM>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

I honestly don't know what happened when my post on hypertext etc. came =

to be posted as a letter from you, Wes. As this post was intended to =

invite people to go to our Danish site (in a couple of days time) this =

is quite ridiculous - if a little comical. I sincerely hope it doesn't =

bother you!=20

 

jenskoch@post1.tele.dk

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:15:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Re: MoonFestival

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Sitting by the Net, guys, have you just looked out of windows

>to take an eye on the Moon? It's round and round, right?

>Tonight, Sep. 16, 1997, we are celebrating MoonFestival here.

>A special day, families are long for getting together,

>travelers'd be homesick. Folks take watching Moon

>as a great pleasure, wherever they are and however they are going on.

>A hope deep in hearts is that family is as round as today's Moon.

> 

>Thus the Moon you see now has received billions of lenient gaze

>last few hours. The road connecting Earth and Moon is so busy

>and is filled up with affection. You will never be refused

>if you wanta take a ride to Moon.

> 

>JK was getting his "the greatest ride in my life"

>from Gothenburg to Cheyenne

>under cold shining star

>he bought boys on the truck whisky

>"You can have a couple of shots!", boy

> 

>Now,in warm moonlight

>folks on the list

>would receive the old Chinese feeling

>and a piece of mooncake

>digitally

> 

>Ciao

> 

>Yan

>We share the Moon.

 

And just before reading this post I was saying that the moon is full

tonight and I will gather some wood for a fire as our friends come up to

gather in the next few hours. We look east across the distant ridge to

watch for the moon from this 2,000' hilltop in upstate New York. We will be

looking east from Wheeler Hill and I will think of you, Yan, as the moon

sends its first light over the ridge.

 

Michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:12:46 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      romantic lit. / shelley&wollstonecraft listserv?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hey there?

i was wondering if anyone out there knows if there is a romantic lit or

mary shelly/mary wollstonecraft listserv in email land. my girlfreind is

doing her masters thesis on shelley/wollstonecraft & the figure of

prometheus & i was wondering if there is any any internet resources that

you folks would recommend.

(aint that strange - a beat "scholar/enthusiast" and a 19th C romanticist

?? haha.)

thanks a HUGE bundle

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:56:14 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: MoonFestival

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

mike, when you have the time, please drop a line to me at country@sover.net

enjoy yr moon. i will be on a hilltop over our 'cold hollow' town of

montpelier. every night this week i have been walking in the clouds that

shroud the hills, up from the clarity of the hollow, feeling like i am walking

on clouds. tonight is clear. will think of you and your celebration.

mc

 

Michael Czarnecki wrote:

 

> >Sitting by the Net, guys, have you just looked out of windows

> >to take an eye on the Moon? It's round and round, right?

> >Tonight, Sep. 16, 1997, we are celebrating MoonFestival here.

> >A special day, families are long for getting together,

> >travelers'd be homesick. Folks take watching Moon

> >as a great pleasure, wherever they are and however they are going on.

> >A hope deep in hearts is that family is as round as today's Moon.

> >

> >Thus the Moon you see now has received billions of lenient gaze

> >last few hours. The road connecting Earth and Moon is so busy

> >and is filled up with affection. You will never be refused

> >if you wanta take a ride to Moon.

> >

> >JK was getting his "the greatest ride in my life"

> >from Gothenburg to Cheyenne

> >under cold shining star

> >he bought boys on the truck whisky

> >"You can have a couple of shots!", boy

> >

> >Now,in warm moonlight

> >folks on the list

> >would receive the old Chinese feeling

> >and a piece of mooncake

> >digitally

> >

> >Ciao

> >

> >Yan

> >We share the Moon.

> 

> And just before reading this post I was saying that the moon is full

> tonight and I will gather some wood for a fire as our friends come up to

> gather in the next few hours. We look east across the distant ridge to

> watch for the moon from this 2,000' hilltop in upstate New York. We will be

> looking east from Wheeler Hill and I will think of you, Yan, as the moon

> sends its first light over the ridge.

> 

> Michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:18:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: romantic lit. / shelley&wollstonecraft listserv?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     Sorry to post this to the list but I can't get return addresses from

     my program (plus it's good info to all):

 

     to find a particular listerv send the command

 

     list global XXXXXXXX   (Where XXXXXXX is a key word)

 

     to the address:

 

     listserv@listserv.net

 

        this won't give you every list in existence, but it'll come close

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: romantic lit. / shelley&wollstonecraft listserv?

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    9/16/97 2:12 PM

 

 

hey there?

i was wondering if anyone out there knows if there is a romantic lit or

mary shelly/mary wollstonecraft listserv in email land. my girlfreind is

doing her masters thesis on shelley/wollstonecraft & the figure of

prometheus & i was wondering if there is any any internet resources that

you folks would recommend.

(aint that strange - a beat "scholar/enthusiast" and a 19th C romanticist

?? haha.)

thanks a HUGE bundle

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:35:32 +0530

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: bardo

Comments: cc: "Beach@qconline.com" <Beach@qconline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> Diane Carter wrote:

> > My question is what does it symbolize or do?  Does it have something to do

>  with the journey of the soul?  And does this burning of possessions

> > give energy to the soul in its journey in whatever dimension it might be

> > in now after death?

> > DC

> 

> more information at clip information from

> http://dove.mtx.net.au/~jrowse/dead/tibdead.html

> 

>      The Bardo Thodol, or Tibetan Book of the Dead, is an ancient

>      text that was first put into written form by the legendary Padma

>      Sambhava in the 8th century A.D. Translated, Bardo Thodol

>      means "liberation by hearing on the after death plane". The book

>      acts as a guide for the dead during the state that intervenes

>      death and the next rebirth. This intermediate state is called the

>      Bardo and lasts for forty nine days.

> p

 

this is so funny.  guess we were just a bit ahead of schedule.  Rod came

down on surprise to visit me for pre-birthday weekend.  One of the many

things we did was play Timothy Leary's cd taking "Ralph" through the

Bardo chakras on one boom box while playing clips from many of William's

cds on another.  Highly recommend "But I'm dying, no you're not" during

the FreakOut section on the 4th Chakra.  Much of Breakthrough in the

GreyRoom "shift coordinate points" "mr. martin" "how random is random"

"you can only call the old doctor once" "brings down his blue hands to

quiet the Marks" fit along very well during the Descent into Heaven as

well.  Rod left me on loan with a bit of audio fun.  Right now i have

Junkie, Breakthrough in the Grey Room, Call Me Burroughs, Elvis of

Lettres, Dead City Radio, Priest They Called Him, Spare Ass Annie, and

Seven Souls zooming in and out of my boombox.  I might have another one

or two i forgot to mention!

 

have fun.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:43:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: bardo

In-Reply-To:  <341E760C.516F@midusa.net> from "RACE ---" at Sep 16,

              97 05:35:32 pm

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Then there's always the quote from an early David Bowie song

(Quicksand from Hunky Dory):

 

   "If I don't explain what you want to know

    You can tell me all about it on the next bardo"

 

I always wanted to use that as a .sig quote, but I

figured I'd have to spend a lot of time explaining

what a bardo is if I did.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|          *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                    |

|       we might never, never, never live in harmony |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:11:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      something to SPIN...

 

SPIN magazine, October 1997, p. 76

The Priest, They Called Him:

William S. Burroughs, 1914-1997

 

Why was the death of William S. Burroughs such a curiously uneventful event?

Given the superficial resemblance to the recent passing of friend and fellow

beat Allen Ginsberg, for example, the two deaths couldn't feel more

different.  Like Burroughs, Ginsberg was a writer well past his prime and a

spotlight addict inclined to interlope on passing youth-culture movements in

order to extend his legend.  Nonetheless, Ginsberg remained a force to the

end, an artist with a sincere political and spiritual agenda who saw his fame

as a way to provoke cultural change.  His death came as a surprisingly

powerful blow, even to people who'd long since cringed at his poetry.

 

On the other hand, the 83-year-old Burroughs, who died of heart failure

August 2, was an active relic who had exploited the mystique around his early

work for so long that I suspect even he didn't know why he was famous

anymore.  While he continued to write, he was less an artist than a retiree

who dabbled in his former craft.  Despite the omnipresence of his name, he

had ceased to participate in our world decades ago.  He lived quietly in the

middle of nowhere, invisible, apart from the occasional cameo, attached to us

only by that famous visage and voice, and by the well-worn anecdotes and

crackpot theories he respun endlessly for any interviewer willing to make the

trek to Lawrence, Kansas.

 

Don't get me wrong: Burroughs was a profoundly important countercultural

figure.  Before heroin addiction stunted his talent, he wrote a handful of

brilliant, groundbreaking novels, including Naked Lunch (1959) and The Wild

Boys (1969).  He perfected (but did not invent) the cut-up technique, one of

the touchstones of postmodernism and an influence on innumerable writers,

artists, directors, and musicians, He popularized the idea of experimental

fiction, if more by dint of his persona than his craft.  Along with Jean

Genet, John Rechy, and Ginsberg, he helped make homosexuality seem cool and

highbrow, providing gay liberation with a delicious edge.  In his day,

Burroughs was arguably the most radical novelist that America had ever

produced.

 

But the rest of the Burroughs mystique -- the gun toting, the conspiracy

rantings, the heroin cheerleading -- was pure showbiz.  Not that he didn't

sit in Orgone Boxes daydreaming of enlightenment, or do drugs into his 80s.

 But the mythic status of those oddball personal habits had everything to do

with the contexts in which he was placed: To most of the rock bands,

moviemakers, and Gen X advertisers who dropped Burroughs's trademark exterior

into their product (notable exception: Gus Van Sant), he was a signifier of

their own daring and little else.  And in allowing this indiscriminate

dispersal of his image, Burroughs the complex artist became Burroughs the

simplistic icon.

 

In a way, Burroughs died in the late '70s, when he was resurrected from

relative obscurity and repackaged as a kind of outlaw comedian/philosopher.

 Victor Bockris's 1981 book, *With William Burroughs: A Report from the

Bunker,* a collection of transcribed dinner conversations and photos,

presents him as a cranky, befuddled living legend who, when not putting on

clownish displays of outre behavior, was propped up in front of a passing

array of worshipful rock stars.  It's a well-known secret that, beginning

with his 1981 "comeback" novel, Cities of the Red Night, Burroughs's prose

was a product of partial ghostwriting, and that his involvement in his books

steadily diminished.  Perhaps this is not a bad thing in and of itself;

everybody's got to pay the rent somehow.  But the result is that his death

feels abstract, only coldly fascinating.  The Burroughs whom most of us know

and love is an echo, which, thanks to the miracles of sampling, will continue

unimpeded as long as there are young rebels in need of a transgressive

figurehead.

--DENNIS COOPER

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:15:37 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I saw this as well.  Thnx for posting it.

 

What about it?  Not the opinion, but the claim that Burroughs books were

written by ghosts beginning with Cities of the Red Night?

 

True?

 

 

At 07:11 PM 9/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>SPIN magazine, October 1997, p. 76

>The Priest, They Called Him:

>William S. Burroughs, 1914-1997

> 

>Why was the death of William S. Burroughs such a curiously uneventful event?

>Given the superficial resemblance to the recent passing of friend and fellow

>beat Allen Ginsberg, for example, the two deaths couldn't feel more

>different.  Like Burroughs, Ginsberg was a writer well past his prime and a

>spotlight addict inclined to interlope on passing youth-culture movements in

>order to extend his legend.  Nonetheless, Ginsberg remained a force to the

>end, an artist with a sincere political and spiritual agenda who saw his fame

>as a way to provoke cultural change.  His death came as a surprisingly

>powerful blow, even to people who'd long since cringed at his poetry.

> 

>On the other hand, the 83-year-old Burroughs, who died of heart failure

>August 2, was an active relic who had exploited the mystique around his early

>work for so long that I suspect even he didn't know why he was famous

>anymore.  While he continued to write, he was less an artist than a retiree

>who dabbled in his former craft.  Despite the omnipresence of his name, he

>had ceased to participate in our world decades ago.  He lived quietly in the

>middle of nowhere, invisible, apart from the occasional cameo, attached to us

>only by that famous visage and voice, and by the well-worn anecdotes and

>crackpot theories he respun endlessly for any interviewer willing to make the

>trek to Lawrence, Kansas.

> 

>Don't get me wrong: Burroughs was a profoundly important countercultural

>figure.  Before heroin addiction stunted his talent, he wrote a handful of

>brilliant, groundbreaking novels, including Naked Lunch (1959) and The Wild

>Boys (1969).  He perfected (but did not invent) the cut-up technique, one of

>the touchstones of postmodernism and an influence on innumerable writers,

>artists, directors, and musicians, He popularized the idea of experimental

>fiction, if more by dint of his persona than his craft.  Along with Jean

>Genet, John Rechy, and Ginsberg, he helped make homosexuality seem cool and

>highbrow, providing gay liberation with a delicious edge.  In his day,

>Burroughs was arguably the most radical novelist that America had ever

>produced.

> 

>But the rest of the Burroughs mystique -- the gun toting, the conspiracy

>rantings, the heroin cheerleading -- was pure showbiz.  Not that he didn't

>sit in Orgone Boxes daydreaming of enlightenment, or do drugs into his 80s.

> But the mythic status of those oddball personal habits had everything to do

>with the contexts in which he was placed: To most of the rock bands,

>moviemakers, and Gen X advertisers who dropped Burroughs's trademark exterior

>into their product (notable exception: Gus Van Sant), he was a signifier of

>their own daring and little else.  And in allowing this indiscriminate

>dispersal of his image, Burroughs the complex artist became Burroughs the

>simplistic icon.

> 

>In a way, Burroughs died in the late '70s, when he was resurrected from

>relative obscurity and repackaged as a kind of outlaw comedian/philosopher.

> Victor Bockris's 1981 book, *With William Burroughs: A Report from the

>Bunker,* a collection of transcribed dinner conversations and photos,

>presents him as a cranky, befuddled living legend who, when not putting on

>clownish displays of outre behavior, was propped up in front of a passing

>array of worshipful rock stars.  It's a well-known secret that, beginning

>with his 1981 "comeback" novel, Cities of the Red Night, Burroughs's prose

>was a product of partial ghostwriting, and that his involvement in his books

>steadily diminished.  Perhaps this is not a bad thing in and of itself;

>everybody's got to pay the rent somehow.  But the result is that his death

>feels abstract, only coldly fascinating.  The Burroughs whom most of us know

>and love is an echo, which, thanks to the miracles of sampling, will continue

>unimpeded as long as there are young rebels in need of a transgressive

>figurehead.

>--DENNIS COOPER

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:24:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan or Jennifer <jt712@NETPATH.NET>

Subject:      Re: A funny thing happened the other day..

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.91.970916133714.32326C-100000@sun>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:38 PM 9/16/97 -0500, you wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Jonathan or Jennifer wrote:

> 

>> I was in Barnes and Noble bookstore, browsing through

>> the Jack Kerouac section, when this lady in her 40's-50's

>> and her husband walked by. she pointed right at one

>> of Kerouac's books and said in a loud voice to her

>> husband: "Know that guy? He was a hippie-beatnik."

>> then she left. i almost burst out laughing. obviously,

>> this woman knows nothing about Kerouac. he was totally

>> against the hippies! Just thought i might share that

>> with everyone.

>> 

>> -Jennifer

>> -jt712@netpath.net

>> 

>What had Kerouac said against hippies?

> 

>Yan

>We share the Moon.

> 

now that i think about it, Kerouac wasn't against the

hippies, but i read somewhere that he opposed many of

the things they approved of.

 

-Jennifer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:48:45 +0900

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: bardo

In-Reply-To:  <341E2830.6A7F@together.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>My question is what does it symbolize or do?

 

        Bardo--although I'm not familiar with the name, is a Buddist

practice which takes place during 49 days after the a person's death. In

Japan, where I live, some families hold "Shijukunichi" ("49 Days")

cermonies after a relative's death. Families will gather at the Buddhist

temple for prayer lead by the temple priest. Afterward, they will often

bury the ashes in the grave.

        Other families, depending on family tradition or branch of Buddism

will hold similar ceremonies 35 days after the death or 1 year after the

death.

        I've heard and read (Tibetan Book of the Dead) that at least in

Tigetan Buddism these 49 days are not spent idly waiting; the time is used

to prepare the departing soul for the transformation, hoping to help them

reincarnate at a more enlightened level, by reading them the Scripture from

the Book of the Dead (hence the title).

        This is my humble and incomplete understanding. I'm always learning

more, in fact, received my awaited copy of Some of the Dharma yesterday, so

there may be more to add to this message later.

>do with the journey of the soul?  And does this burning of possessions

>give energy to the soul in its journey in whatever dimension it might be

>in now after death?

>DC

 

 

:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::

Timothy Hoffman

Komaki English Teaching Center

timothy@gol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:23:29 -0500

Reply-To:     Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

In-Reply-To:  <970916190955_1123414625@emout19.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Yeah, i was about to post this too.  I was frankly dissapointed with it.

It just seems to me that the writer knew very little about William S.

Burroughs besides the cult, cliche knowledge of him.  And many parts of

the article seem downright rude.  (im paraphrasing) "Many people felt the

loss of Allen Ginsberg, even the ones who had spent years cringing at his

poetry."  and then "While he continued to write, he was less an artist

than a retiree

who dabbled in his former craft."  I dont agree with this at all, and i

think he just switched mediums.  He went beyond writing to painting and

collages.  It seemed like the article wasn't even really a

tribute to a great man who had just passed away.  It was saying something

like: "His artistic genius passed away long a go, so we need not mourn his

body."

 

I don't know, maybe im too harsh.  but i think it would have been better

to keep the article out as a tribute to WSB.  Now, on the other hand, i

liked the article in Rolling Stone.  THAT was a tribute.

 

-matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:27:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I wasn't going to say anything but wasn't there  a study on coopers that

they caused asthma. tim, your such a heavy hitter, right, william not

only couldn't right or think, after all he was old, uh, but elvis really

wrote and imagined the trilogy, they covered it up because they thought

william's name was bigger.  Then didn't he have a trust fund, i mean

cooper not elvis.

how many legs does dennis have?

p

spin sure spent the money on that.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:23:00 +0900

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

In-Reply-To:  <970916190955_1123414625@emout19.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        I gotta say, I was disappointed with the tone of the SPIN article.

        If Cooper and SPIN had not felt the man deserving of a tribute, why

print anything at all? Why not just let him pass?

         Burroughs' death received a more respectful and humane treatment

in People, for God's sake. The People article, brief as it was, did at

least pay heed to Burroughs' choice of vocation as a way "to write himself

out of" the hellish situation he was in after the accidental shooting death

of his wife.

        Cooper seems to take offense to the fact that Burroughs had been

enjoying a period of resurgence in his popularity among the

counterculture/young/personalities of the music industry when the same can

be said about other Beat authors. The fact that Burroughs had "dabbled" in

media other than writing should only confirm the idea that he was an artist

to the end, sincere in his beliefs, as human as anyone else, and, because

of his obvious talents, in death, deserving a fair tribute.

 

 

:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::

Timothy Hoffman

Komaki English Teaching Center

timothy@gol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:03:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Wes Lundburg <lundburg@TCPNETS.COM>

Subject:      Re: I  HONESTLY DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi, Jens!  Bother me??? Heck no.  Those who know me know that precious

little bothers me!  But I was wondering the same thing.  I'll bet you hit

reply while reading my post.

 

I'll look forward to seeing that site.  Would you post it again when it

goes on line???

 

---Wes

 

----------

Jens Koch wrote:

 

 

I honestly don't know what happened when my post on hypertext etc. came to

be posted as a letter from you, Wes. As this post was intended to invite

people to go to our Danish site (in a couple of days time) this is quite

ridiculous - if a little comical. I sincerely hope it doesn't bother you!

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:44:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Roy Murray Moore <unde0297@FRANK.MTSU.EDU>

Subject:      something to spin...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

        if spin is going to condemn performers for living off the laurels

of past achievement, why then didn't they give jerry garcia the same going

over?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:36:46 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: 36th anniversary on terra firma

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=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:43:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Trees

In-Reply-To:  <970916030733_928094125@emout09.mail.aol.com>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Attila Gyenis wrote:

 

> Headwaters Forest - the last remaining old growth forest, Redwood trees 500

> to 2,000 years old, that are privately owned. And owned by Mr. Hurwitz

> (Maxxam corporation/Pacific Lumber) who is tying to get ransom money for it

> from the government and taxpayers in the amount of $380 million dollars USA,

> otherwise the forest, nature, animals, rivers, all go. It's 10:00 pm. Do you

> know what the fuck your government is doing?

> 

> I don't know if Jack would have stood for it.   Are trees beat?

 

from Desolation Angels, ch32:

"As far as I can see and as I am concerned, this so-called Forest Service

is nothing but a front, on the one hand a vague Totalitarian governmental

effort to restrict the use of the forest to people, telling them they cant

camp here or piss there, it's illegal to do this and you're allowed to do

that, in the Immemorial Wilderness of Tao and the Golden Age and the

Milleniums of Man--secondly it's a front for the lumber interests, the net

result of the whole thing being, what with Scott Paper Tissue and such

companies logging out these woods year after year with the 'cooperation'

of the Forest Service which boasts so proudly of the number of board feet

in the whole Forest (as if I owned an inch of a board altho I cant piss

here nor camp there) result, net, is people all over the world are wiping

their ass with the beautiful trees--"

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:18:52 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to spin...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.HPP.3.96.970916214039.10951B-100000@frank.mtsu.edu> from

              "Roy Murray Moore" at Sep 16, 97 09:44:12 pm

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

>         if spin is going to condemn performers for living off the laurels

> of past achievement, why then didn't they give jerry garcia the same going

> over?

 

This is true -- I don't know what the hell got into Spin.  I've

sometimes critiqued Burroughs myself, but one thing you've got

to say is he aged pretty well, and always kept us guessing what

he was going to do next.  I'd rather go out that way than a lot

of other ways.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|          *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                    |

|       we might never, never, never live in harmony |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:45:25 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: 36th anniversary on terra firma

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=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:17:56 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: MoonFestival

MIME-Version: 1.0

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=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:33:35 +0530

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: 36th anniversary on terra firma

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

>  Happy birthday David!

> 

> A bit late again,  among  other things work does is you get behind , running

 behind the threads as as  Yan would say, but it is all right in many other ways

 and I am not too late yet to wish you a happy birthday or to share the moon

 celebrating...

> 

> I am no longer shocked that you are only thirty six,  I got over that after

 seeing your picure. I had pictured you as having become wisened through the

 years, but I saw that your mind was way ahead of your years by that much and it

 obviously didn't hurt you none  in the body either.

> 

> So now I have an acceptable reason to congratulate you, and since us oldtimers

 ain't doin our job if we ain't givin no advice, take it from one who is going

 to be doubling your years in a couple of weeks, You can pave your road with

 rose petals no matter what curves they put in your way!

> 

> Had I only realized it was  going to go on being that good I would have saved

 me some pretty heap of waste looking for the ravages of age. coming at me. Sure

 can bet on tha.t but it ain't near as bad as you might imagine. You even get

 used to those wrinkles and the grey hairs and there is more fun awaiting than

 you can shake a stick at. And not only that, you get smarter to dig all those

 goodies. Ha Ha! Have a good one!

> 

> One thing though - Is it all that firm? sometimes it feels a little shaky to

 me. Maybe that's my age creeping up on me. Got my sailors' legs on though, it

 all is fun.

> 

> leon

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 5:18 AM

> Subject: 36th anniversary on terra firma

> 

> >Full Moon tonight

> >and anniversary of my birth

> >36 years

> >give or take a century

> >someone asks me

> >"well, do you FEEEEEEEEEEEEL older?"

> >tough question you know

> >hear it

> >every year

> >every year someone's gonna ask

> >do you you feeeeeel older and

> >kind of like when asked

> >how do you feeeeeel

> >everyday

> >on street corners from

> >this person or that person

> >that don't

> >wait for the answer

> >cuz they didn't even realize

> >that they'd

> >asked the question

> >and so

> >the answer is

> >yes

> >i feel a distinct

> >impression

> >that i'm about

> >a day older

> >give or take

> >and wonder about the

> >correspondence of

> >birthday and full moon

> >and

> >certain wonderful Lunacy

> >somewhere in

> >the universe today.

> >

> >[Soundtrack: two boomboxes one playing Pink Floyd the other playing

> >George Clinton]

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >salina, Kansas

> >.-

> >

thanks for the kind note.

of course it isn't always that firm.

many many methods for dealing with the anti-firm moments.  my most

successful is probably to count to 100 than count down to -500 and back

up to zero.

there is rarely something anti-firm with the patience to withstand this

procedure ... of course, i often fall asleep somewhere along the way...

 

still hoping to come out that way later this fall or in the spring.

this weekend taking my mother to denver to visit my sister and i'll play

with nephew nate and move up the road to evergreen to an old friend and

to Boulder to seek out the Disembodied Poets....always have wondered

exactly what that means...hope that they ain't so disembodied that they

are invisible.

 

i'm blocked off the computer right now so will send this in the morning.

thanks again.

words of advice to young folks are always in order!

 

shalom,

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:41:59 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 36th anniversary on terra firma

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:45 PM 9/16/97 -0700, you wrote:

> You too Tim! Last but not least of the thrty sixers! Greetings from your

ols stomping grounds! Not only a full moon but the sunsets from Natural

Bridges are more stunning than they ever were. Happy trails Tim

> 

>leon

 

Thanks Leon you make me nostalgic for the old town.

 

I bet the moon is great from a Lompico view through the redwoods

 

 

> 

>-----Original Message-----

>From: Timothy K. Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Date: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 8:44 AM

>Subject: Re: 36th anniversary on terra firma

> 

> 

> 

>>At 07:13 AM 9/16/97 +0530, you wrote:

>>>Full Moon tonight

>>>and anniversary of my birth

>>>36 years

>> 

>> 

>>No way!!!!?????

>> 

>> 

>>It's my birthday too yeah.

>> 

>>Well my birthday's really in october but it the Chinese calender it's my

>>birthday.

>> 

>>Same rat year too.

>> 

>>Amazing.

>> 

>>I thought this made me the Moon King but maybe you are also the Moon King.

>> 

>>Happy Birthday David.

>> 

>> 

>>>give or take a century

>>>someone asks me

>>>"well, do you FEEEEEEEEEEEEL older?"

>>>tough question you know

>>>hear it

>>>every year

>>>every year someone's gonna ask

>>>do you you feeeeeel older and

>>>kind of like when asked

>>>how do you feeeeeel

>>>everyday

>>>on street corners from

>>>this person or that person

>>>that don't

>>>wait for the answer

>>>cuz they didn't even realize

>>>that they'd

>>>asked the question

>>>and so

>>>the answer is

>>>yes

>>>i feel a distinct

>>>impression

>>>that i'm about

>>>a day older

>>>give or take

>>>and wonder about the

>>>correspondence of

>>>birthday and full moon

>>>and

>>>certain wonderful Lunacy

>>>somewhere in

>>>the universe today.

>>> 

>>>[Soundtrack: two boomboxes one playing Pink Floyd the other playing

>>>George Clinton]

>>> 

>>>david rhaesa

>>>salina, Kansas

>>> 

>>> 

>>.-

>> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:19:51 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      PBS Ginsberg

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Just noticed that KQED in San Francisco is airing a show on AG--"The

Life and Times of Allan Ginsberg" Wednesday night (tomorrow) at 10pm.

Public TV viewers in other markets might want to check their schedules.

I don't know who is producing this one.  (I saw the ad as I was on the

phone with the sound off on TV).

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:16:50 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard D Raymond <madhatter20@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      kerouac quarterly?

 

  My name is Ricky Raymond, and I am a relative neophyte to the beat

writers and the world of bickering they left in their wake. I was going

through some old messages from the list, and found a particularly biting

response from you to nicosia in which you mentioned a Kerouac Quarterly.

Could you send me subscription info? thanks.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:41:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: 36th anniversary on terra firma

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

We got old timers and prospectors on this hyar hookup!

 

Mike Rice

 

At 07:36 PM 9/16/97 -0700, you wrote:

> Happy birthday David!

> 

>A bit late again,  among  other things work does is you get behind ,

running behind the threads as as  Yan would say, but it is all right in many

other ways and I am not too late yet to wish you a happy birthday or to

share the moon celebrating...

> 

>I am no longer shocked that you are only thirty six,  I got over that after

seeing your picure. I had pictured you as having become wisened through the

years, but I saw that your mind was way ahead of your years by that much and

it obviously didn't hurt you none  in the body either.

> 

>So now I have an acceptable reason to congratulate you, and since us

oldtimers ain't doin our job if we ain't givin no advice, take it from one

who is going to be doubling your years in a couple of weeks, You can pave

your road with rose petals no matter what curves they put in your way!

> 

>Had I only realized it was  going to go on being that good I would have

saved me some pretty heap of waste looking for the ravages of age. coming at

me. Sure can bet on tha.t but it ain't near as bad as you might imagine. You

even get used to those wrinkles and the grey hairs and there is more fun

awaiting than you can shake a stick at. And not only that, you get smarter

to dig all those goodies. Ha Ha! Have a good one!

> 

>One thing though - Is it all that firm? sometimes it feels a little shaky

to me. Maybe that's my age creeping up on me. Got my sailors' legs on

though, it all is fun.

> 

>leon

> 

>-----Original Message-----

>From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Date: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 5:18 AM

>Subject: 36th anniversary on terra firma

> 

> 

> 

>>Full Moon tonight

>>and anniversary of my birth

>>36 years

>>give or take a century

>>someone asks me

>>"well, do you FEEEEEEEEEEEEL older?"

>>tough question you know

>>hear it

>>every year

>>every year someone's gonna ask

>>do you you feeeeeel older and

>>kind of like when asked

>>how do you feeeeeel

>>everyday

>>on street corners from

>>this person or that person

>>that don't

>>wait for the answer

>>cuz they didn't even realize

>>that they'd

>>asked the question

>>and so

>>the answer is

>>yes

>>i feel a distinct

>>impression

>>that i'm about

>>a day older

>>give or take

>>and wonder about the

>>correspondence of

>>birthday and full moon

>>and

>>certain wonderful Lunacy

>>somewhere in

>>the universe today.

>> 

>>[Soundtrack: two boomboxes one playing Pink Floyd the other playing

>>George Clinton]

>> 

>>david rhaesa

>>salina, Kansas

>>.-

>> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:53:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to spin...

 

SPIN is just very uneven.  They are not as predictable as Rolling Stone,

which can be refreshing.  But SPIN lets a lot of silly stuff into print -

poorly written, poorly researched, poorly edited if at all, and the Burroughs

piece was an example of all of the above, more like what you would expect

from a college newspaper, just one guy musing about his poorly formed

impressions rather than anything resembeling journalism.

 

SPIN's list of the 40 most important musicians about six months ago was just

hysterical.  Warhol was wrong, at places like SPIN fame comes and goes in way

under 15 minutes.  SPIN has trouble dealing with the fact that sometimes

there are a few folks that actually are famous and "in" for a little more

than a few hours.  Like him or not, William S. Burroughs was one of that

breed.  Its not surprising that some have trouble dealing with that.

 

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:02:51 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: kerouac quarterly?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 03:16 PM 4/26/97 EST, you wrote:

>  My name is Ricky Raymond, and I am a relative neophyte to the beat

>writers and the world of bickering they left in their wake. I was going

>through some old messages from the list, and found a particularly biting

>response from you to nicosia in which you mentioned a Kerouac Quarterly.

>Could you send me subscription info? thanks.

> 

 Hi...the info can be found at The Kerouac Quarterly web site at:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:22:26 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:15:37 -0700 Timothy K. Gallaher

wrote:

 

[snip]

 

> >Don't get me wrong: Burroughs was a profoundly important

countercultural

> >figure.  Before heroin addiction stunted his talent, he

wrote a handful of

> >brilliant, groundbreaking novels, including Naked Lunch

(1959) and The Wild

> >Boys (1969).

 

Pardon me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't Burroughs so much on

smack whilst writing Naked Lunch that he claimed in the

introduction that he could not remember writing bits of it

(a claim that was taken up by Kronenberg in his film of the

book when Ginsberg and Kerouac visit him in Interzone with

his "book" and he says that he knows nothing about it.)?

 

 In his day,

> >Burroughs was arguably the most radical novelist that

America had ever

> >produced.

 

As far as I'm concerned, he's still the most radical

novelist that America has ever produced.  Who else tackled

the theoretical premises that had been taken as being as

natural as breathing to novelists both before and after, and

did his best, if not to destroy them, then to subvert them

by showing that great literature can be created without the

traditionally accepted guidelines.  His un-systematic

destruction of the narrative structure was (I think I'm

right in saying) the first of its kind, if not only the

first to push the boundaries as far as they could go.

Cut-up was important not just as a new method (and Burroughs

was arguably the first to bring it into widely-seen word

collages) but also because it shows us what had been taken

for granted up to then, and what could be done by breaking

the rules.  Kerouac is often seen to be a more important

literary figure, but his theories of spontaneous poetics

were mainly distilled from Joyce and others.  Personally I

find most stream-of-conciousness-type-stuff completely

unreadable, but it's important for the same reasons.

 

> >But the rest of the Burroughs mystique -- the gun toting,

the conspiracy

> >rantings, the heroin cheerleading -- was pure showbiz.

 

I'm sure that his wife would not be happy to learn that.

And I think it's a little unfair.

All great figures of the sixties (and, yeah, before and

after) were eventually taken over by their own myths, being

consumed by the legend and eventually disappearing up their

own arseholes.  I think Burroughs fought this better than

most, and I think his memory deserves better.

 

 It's a well-known secret that, beginning

> >with his 1981 "comeback" novel, Cities of the Red Night,

Burroughs's prose

> >was a product of partial ghostwriting, and that his

involvement in his books

> >steadily diminished.

 

And yet, inmo, The Western Lands was Burrough's second best

book (first being the sublime Ghost of Chance).  It drew all

the threads together and illuminated many dark corners of

his mind and thoughts that would have otherwise remained

vague impressions only.

 

Burroughs is the most undervalued writer of the century.

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"To know, and be not knowing."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:53:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

 

To Tom Harberd--

 

Tim Gallaher is not the author of that Burroughs stuff, but just one of the

respondents to it. The author is Dennis Cooper, and the article appears in

this month's issue of SPIN magazine.

 

I posted the article to the list for comment. All those who disagree with

Cooper's assessment should also consider writing to SPIN to register their

complaints formally.

 

These are addresses for the editorial offices of SPIN. Take your pick.

Spin Magazine 6 W 18th St, New York, NY 10011-4608

Phone: (212)633-8200 Fax: (212)633-2668

 

Spin Magazine 11950 San Vicente Blvd, Los Angeles, CA 90049-5013

Phone: (310)820-8183

 

Spin Magazine 447 Battery St, San Francisco, CA 94111-3202

Phone: (415)981-7746

 

Also, they have a website titled "Spin Online," apparently, but I haven't

been able to divine its whereabouts. If anyone knows the URL, please send it

to me.

 

Thanks.

 

diane

 

P.S. I haven't had any use for SPIN magazine since its 1995 article on

celebrity "male bimbos," whom they referred to as "himbos," which was so

baldly sexist and offensive I couldn't believe they didn't get their asses

sued off.

 

Always, consider the source. Never trust a magazine to present facts. They

are all in the entertainment biz today.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:46:16 +0530

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Saturday in Boulder

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Since i won't be able to be in Lawrence on the 20th i was going to take

my little Pocket Tibetan Book of the Dead in pocket and head up from

Aurora to Boulder.  Have my only little Bardo moments there.

 

Wondering about directions?  I've heard that Arapahoe and Pearl are

streets to wander along.  Are there others?  Any doors i should knock on

unannounced????

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:14:37 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: romantic lit. / shelley&wollstonecraft listserv?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

derek: i'd try asking the bohos as well. they are more eclectic crowd. also

i think your needs would best be served not on a web site but on a specific

lit list. i don't have the info, but i hope someone here can give you a more

detailed response. btw: have you ever seen 'frankenstein unbound'? it's a

great scifi/time travel/literary adventure-but not helpful in a scholarly

way.

mc

 

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

 

> hey there?

> i was wondering if anyone out there knows if there is a romantic lit or

> mary shelly/mary wollstonecraft listserv in email land. my girlfreind is

> doing her masters thesis on shelley/wollstonecraft & the figure of

> prometheus & i was wondering if there is any any internet resources that

> you folks would recommend.

> (aint that strange - a beat "scholar/enthusiast" and a 19th C romanticist

> ?? haha.)

> thanks a HUGE bundle

> yrs

> derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:39:51 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Re[2]: something to spin...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     Ed Sanders has a word for this sort of "Spin".

     He calls it a "Poe job". It's the same old establishment

     bashing the artist while they're alive and after

     they're dead. Edgar still gets this once in a while.

     The sad part is that WSB has been on SPIN's list of

     contributing editors and WSB gives praise to Dennis

     Cooper in a blurb on one of Cooper's books. Dennis owes

     a lot to Burroughs. Cooper doesn't even have his facts

     together.

     Burroughs deserves better. It's magazines like SPIN that

     capitalized on Burroughs name. It is the media that has

     treated Burroughs like an icon.

     Burroughs has always been 100% himself.

     His work will stand up.

 

     Sean D. Young

     -------------------------------------------------

     -----

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:10:26 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: romantic lit. / shelley&wollstonecraft listserv?

In-Reply-To:  <199709171631.MAA11562@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

mc

done a serach (listserv@listserv.net) for romantic, shelley,

wollstonecraft, romanticist, byron, 18 th century literature with no dice

so far. no help from boho's either. theres gott abe something on all them

listservs out there. gotta be something of use, no?

thanks for all the help ive received so far - i really appreciate it.

yrs

derek

 

On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> 

> derek: i'd try asking the bohos as well. they are more eclectic crowd. also

> i think your needs would best be served not on a web site but on a specific

> lit list. i don't have the info, but i hope someone here can give you a more

> detailed response. btw: have you ever seen 'frankenstein unbound'? it's a

> great scifi/time travel/literary adventure-but not helpful in a scholarly

> way.

> mc

> 

> Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> 

> > hey there?

> > i was wondering if anyone out there knows if there is a romantic lit or

> > mary shelly/mary wollstonecraft listserv in email land. my girlfreind is

> > doing her masters thesis on shelley/wollstonecraft & the figure of

> > prometheus & i was wondering if there is any any internet resources that

> > you folks would recommend.

> > (aint that strange - a beat "scholar/enthusiast" and a 19th C romanticist

> > ?? haha.)

> > thanks a HUGE bundle

> > yrs

> > derek

> 

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:37:03 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      HELP

 

i'm trying to re-subscribe, but it doesn't seem to be working... would someone

send a test out to the list, so i can see if i'm back.  if i don't respond in

about an hour, please cc me and i'll try to subscribe again.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:49:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: something to spin...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:53 AM 9/17/97 -0400, you wrote:

>SPIN is just very uneven.  They are not as predictable as Rolling Stone,

>which can be refreshing.  But SPIN lets a lot of silly stuff into print

 

Yeah, I'd agree with you.  They may actually have done a piece putting down

Jerry Garcia as someone brought up as a theoetical comparison.

 

Spin was recently bought by Vibe.  I don't know if there is a new staff yet

but I did notice that for the last two issues they have not had the Words

from the Front coulmn on AIDS that has been in each issue for a decade now.

I assume it has been discontinued which is too bad.

 

 -

>poorly written, poorly researched, poorly edited if at all, and the Burroughs

>piece was an example of all of the above, more like what you would expect

>from a college newspaper, just one guy musing about his poorly formed

>impressions rather than anything resembeling journalism.

> 

>SPIN's list of the 40 most important musicians about six months ago was just

>hysterical.  Warhol was wrong, at places like SPIN fame comes and goes in way

>under 15 minutes.  SPIN has trouble dealing with the fact that sometimes

>there are a few folks that actually are famous and "in" for a little more

>than a few hours.  Like him or not, William S. Burroughs was one of that

>breed.  Its not surprising that some have trouble dealing with that.

> 

>Howard Park

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:40:32 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: HELP

MIME-Version: 1.0

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reading you loud and clear, m'dear.

mc

 

Sherri wrote:

 

> i'm trying to re-subscribe, but it doesn't seem to be working... would someone

> send a test out to the list, so i can see if i'm back.  if i don't respond in

> about an hour, please cc me and i'll try to subscribe again.

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:00:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Saturday in Boulder

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Wondering about directions?  I've heard that Arapahoe and Pearl are

streets to wander along.  Are there others?  Any doors i should knock on

unannounced????

 

     Arapahoe and Pearl (esp. the Pearl Street Mall(a walking mall, full of

     buskers on the weekend, etc.)) are fun spots.  You might check out the

     Beat Book Store, don't have an address but if you pick up one of the

     free indy papers floating around I'm sure it'll have an ad.  Can't

     remember the real name of The Hill but you'll find it, or it'll find

     you, that's the other "cool" street in town.

 

     Naropa is on Arapahoe, always something going on there.

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt h.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:54:26 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: romantic lit. / shelley&wollstonecraft listserv?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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derek : i just did a search engine on my own bookshelves. a great place to start

is a book by sandra m. gilbert and susan gubar: _the madwoman in the attic_::the

woman writer and the nineteeth century literary imagination. let me know if you

need it mailed up to you if you guys can't get a copy (yale univ. press

 copywrite

'79.

hope this helps: they are feminist scholars. underline scholars.

mc

 

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

 

> mc

> done a serach (listserv@listserv.net) for romantic, shelley,

> wollstonecraft, romanticist, byron, 18 th century literature with no dice

> so far. no help from boho's either. theres gott abe something on all them

> listservs out there. gotta be something of use, no?

> thanks for all the help ive received so far - i really appreciate it.

> yrs

> derek

> 

> On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> >

> > derek: i'd try asking the bohos as well. they are more eclectic crowd. also

> > i think your needs would best be served not on a web site but on a specific

> > lit list. i don't have the info, but i hope someone here can give you a more

> > detailed response. btw: have you ever seen 'frankenstein unbound'? it's a

> > great scifi/time travel/literary adventure-but not helpful in a scholarly

> > way.

> > mc

> >

> > Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> >

> > > hey there?

> > > i was wondering if anyone out there knows if there is a romantic lit or

> > > mary shelly/mary wollstonecraft listserv in email land. my girlfreind is

> > > doing her masters thesis on shelley/wollstonecraft & the figure of

> > > prometheus & i was wondering if there is any any internet resources that

> > > you folks would recommend.

> > > (aint that strange - a beat "scholar/enthusiast" and a 19th C romanticist

> > > ?? haha.)

> > > thanks a HUGE bundle

> > > yrs

> > > derek

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:00:12 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dufour <dufour@ULISSE.IT>

Subject:      R: HELP

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

Me the same !

Francesco

 

----------

> Da: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

> A: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Oggetto: Re: HELP

> Data: mercoledl 17 settembre 1997 16.40

> 

> reading you loud and clear, m'dear.

> mc

> 

> Sherri wrote:

> 

> > i'm trying to re-subscribe, but it doesn't seem to be working... would

someone

> > send a test out to the list, so i can see if i'm back.  if i don't

respond in

> > about an hour, please cc me and i'll try to subscribe again.

> >

> > ciao,

> > sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:48:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi,

 

I saw this posted at the New York Times web site.  They have a forum on

Kerouac going.  The topic is "Kerouac: Writer or Typist"  And the opening

question is "Truman Capote once said that Jack Kerouac's prose wasn't

writing, but typing. Dig it?".

 

Someone called ermoore with an e-mail address of erm@mail.utexas.edu

provided some interesting info.  He (or she) wrote:

 

 

          For anyone interested in a glimpse of Kerouac's

never-before-available road diaries, check out The

          New Yorker in the coming weeks. Kerouac's literary executor,

Douglas Brinkley (author of The

          Majic Bus and editor of Hunter S. Thompson's recently published

early correspondence The Proud

          Highway, among other things), is going to edit and publish this

epic journal and will be offering

          a few excerpts from the diaries in an upcoming issue of The New

Yorker.

 

 

 

Anyone know anything about this?

 

Is Brinkley the literary executor?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:31:43 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 36th anniversary on terra firma

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19970917073506.0adf4a00@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

 

> We got old timers and prospectors on this hyar hookup!

> 

> Mike Rice

 

Don't forget us whippersnapper voyeurs!

 

Jorgiana

 

************** You can always tell a Texan, but not much.***************

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:32:47 +0530

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: HELP

Comments: cc: Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Sherri wrote:

> 

> i'm trying to re-subscribe, but it doesn't seem to be working... would someone

> send a test out to the list, so i can see if i'm back.  if i don't respond in

> about an hour, please cc me and i'll try to subscribe again.

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

 

seems to be working fine.... dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:41:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      For Sherry (was HELP)

Comments: cc: love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I have sent this message to the beat-l and have also sent it to you directly

at love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM

 

 

If you don't get two copies of this message you are not resubscribed.

 

The major problem people will have when subscribing is that they will send

the subscribe or unsubscribe to the list address itself rather than CUNY's

listserv program.

 

the correct address  to subscribe (or unsub) is

 

listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

 

In the message write

 

subscribe beat-l Your Name

 

 

At 05:37 PM 9/17/97 UT, you wrote:

>i'm trying to re-subscribe, but it doesn't seem to be working... would someone

>send a test out to the list, so i can see if i'm back.  if i don't respond in

>about an hour, please cc me and i'll try to subscribe again.

> 

>ciao,

>sherri

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:36:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>Is Brinkley the literary executor?

 

     Are you sure it didn't say "executioner"?  Although I'm a fan of

     Brinley's, he can border on soppy.  The Majic Bus, as a concept of

     education is wonderful, as a book it's a very interesting read, as

     literature it's soggy with emotionalism.

 

     love and soggy lilies,

 

     matt h.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:39:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:48 PM 9/17/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi,

> 

>I saw this posted at the New York Times web site.  They have a forum on

>Kerouac going.  The topic is "Kerouac: Writer or Typist"  And the opening

>question is "Truman Capote once said that Jack Kerouac's prose wasn't

>writing, but typing. Dig it?".

> 

>Someone called ermoore with an e-mail address of erm@mail.utexas.edu

>provided some interesting info.  He (or she) wrote:

> 

> 

>          For anyone interested in a glimpse of Kerouac's

>never-before-available road diaries, check out The

>          New Yorker in the coming weeks. Kerouac's literary executor,

>Douglas Brinkley (author of The

>          Majic Bus and editor of Hunter S. Thompson's recently published

>early correspondence The Proud

>          Highway, among other things), is going to edit and publish this

>epic journal and will be offering

>          a few excerpts from the diaries in an upcoming issue of The New

>Yorker.

> 

> 

> 

>Anyone know anything about this?

> 

>Is Brinkley the literary executor?

> 

NO.  John Sampas, Jack's brother in law, is the Executor of The Estate of

Jack Kerouac.

 

                                        -Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:39:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to spin...

 

SPIN was always very snide about the Dead.  I once talked to Gucione

personally about it, the the NYU Beat Conference.

 

Howard

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:14:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Life & Times

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

As luck would have it, my local PBS station chose not to broadcast _The Life

and Times of Allen Ginsberg_ tonight. I also missed it when it came to the

local alternative cinema house. Anyone taping it, and willing to trade? I

have a couple Beat-related (and otherwise) things on tape.

 

Email me privately at stutz@dsl.org if interested. Thanks.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:25:34 +0530

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Michael Stutz wrote:

> 

> As luck would have it, my local PBS station chose not to broadcast _The Life

> and Times of Allen Ginsberg_ tonight. I also missed it when it came to the

> local alternative cinema house. Anyone taping it, and willing to trade? I

> have a couple Beat-related (and otherwise) things on tape.

> 

> Email me privately at stutz@dsl.org if interested. Thanks.

 

my library had it and i really enjoyed it awhile back.  I must say the

section of Louis G. reading at father's grave and then Allen doing

Father death blues pushed me to the point of weeping.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:18:30 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         der doc <der_doc@ROCKETMAIL.COM>

Subject:      SPIN

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

What can be said about the irreverent, trashy, poorly-written, Gen-X

biased, idiot-authored piece abou the death of Burroughs that appeared

in SPIN?  You know, maybe he was right, you know, maybe Burroughs

isn't a genius... and maybe I'm not angry about the article, either...

'Cause ya know, it's not like Burroughs has put out any books lately,

like _My_Education_, or anything like that.  It's not like Burroughs

was a literary genius, perhaps the most important novelist that the

world has ever known, not to mention the most revolutionary.

But I get too carried away in the sarcasm...

As a Gen-Xer myself, (and god do I wish I wasn't) I can see what

happened in the article.  The author exhibited signs of "Indie Rock

Disease."  Indie Rock Disease, or IRD, is a disease found most

commonly amongst punk, hard-core, and post-punk listening kids that

congregate in coffeehouses and music clubs.  IRD is itself

debilitating and may cause spontaneous atrophying of the brain if it

goes unchecked.  IRD manifests itself as a sort of hubris, in which

the victim believes that anything in particular can be cool, in and of

its own merit, until other people start to like it, i.e., it becomes

popular, i.e., it comes into public scrutiny.  At such a point,

whatever was considered cool is now cast away as "sold out" and

ignored but for bitching rants that the victim may go off on.

As the writer of this article was the victim of a terrible, terrible

disease, I say that perhaps we shouldn't even blame him.  Maybe we

shouldn't even consider the fact that he wrote anything.  Maybe we

should just go about our daily Beat business and ignore anything that

this poor, ignorant, stupid, disease-stricken kid had to say.

 

                     thank you for your time,

 

                     Dr. Adam J Muszkiewicz, PhD

 

 

 

===

visit my web site, The Beat(en) Regeneration

(http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6131)

for info on the Beat, Beatnik and Neo-Beat subcultures

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____________________________________________________________________

Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:38:48 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      IRD (wasRe: SPIN)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

i've always wondered  if this had been given a real name.... just as

plausible as ADD.

randy

> What can be said about the irreverent, trashy, poorly-written, Gen-X

> biased, idiot-authored piece abou the death of Burroughs that appeared

> in SPIN?  You know, maybe he was right, you know, maybe Burroughs

> isn't a genius... and maybe I'm not angry about the article, either...

> 'Cause ya know, it's not like Burroughs has put out any books lately,

> like _My_Education_, or anything like that.  It's not like Burroughs

> was a literary genius, perhaps the most important novelist that the

> world has ever known, not to mention the most revolutionary.

> But I get too carried away in the sarcasm...

> As a Gen-Xer myself, (and god do I wish I wasn't) I can see what

> happened in the article.  The author exhibited signs of "Indie Rock

> Disease."  Indie Rock Disease, or IRD, is a disease found most

> commonly amongst punk, hard-core, and post-punk listening kids that

> congregate in coffeehouses and music clubs.  IRD is itself

> debilitating and may cause spontaneous atrophying of the brain if it

> goes unchecked.  IRD manifests itself as a sort of hubris, in which

> the victim believes that anything in particular can be cool, in and of

> its own merit, until other people start to like it, i.e., it becomes

> popular, i.e., it comes into public scrutiny.  At such a point,

> whatever was considered cool is now cast away as "sold out" and

> ignored but for bitching rants that the victim may go off on.

> As the writer of this article was the victim of a terrible, terrible

> disease, I say that perhaps we shouldn't even blame him.  Maybe we

> shouldn't even consider the fact that he wrote anything.  Maybe we

> should just go about our daily Beat business and ignore anything that

> this poor, ignorant, stupid, disease-stricken kid had to say.

> 

>                      thank you for your time,

> 

>                      Dr. Adam J Muszkiewicz, PhD

> 

> 

> 

> ===

> visit my web site, The Beat(en) Regeneration

> (http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6131)

> for info on the Beat, Beatnik and Neo-Beat subcultures

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> _____________________________________________________________________

> Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:19:23 -0500

Reply-To:     Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

In-Reply-To:  <199709171948.MAA05974@hsc.usc.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> Hi,

> 

> I saw this posted at the New York Times web site.  They have a forum on

> Kerouac going.  The topic is "Kerouac: Writer or Typist"  And the opening

> question is "Truman Capote once said that Jack Kerouac's prose wasn't

> writing, but typing. Dig it?".

> 

> Someone called ermoore with an e-mail address of erm@mail.utexas.edu

> provided some interesting info.  He (or she) wrote:

> 

> 

>           For anyone interested in a glimpse of Kerouac's

> never-before-available road diaries, check out The

>           New Yorker in the coming weeks. Kerouac's literary executor,

> Douglas Brinkley (author of The

>           Majic Bus and editor of Hunter S. Thompson's recently published

> early correspondence The Proud

>           Highway, among other things), is going to edit and publish this

> epic journal and will be offering

>           a few excerpts from the diaries in an upcoming issue of The New

> Yorker.

> 

 

WOW!!!!  I CAN'T WAIT!!!!  AHHH!!! Jack's road diaries!?? YAHOOO!!

Man, Douglas Brinkley is SO COOL.  _The Majic Bus_ is not an attempt at a

novel (although i think it reads almost like one), but it is beautiful.

The whole idea of taking the class out of the classroom and into America

is brilliant!

Matt H. calls it "soppy with emotionalism."  Isn't this the same

discussion that's been going on about the Beats and their sentimentality.

Professor Brinkley is also a great poet.  I still ahev my poster from Ron

Whitehead (thanx Ron, wherever you are!) hanging on my wall:  "Deydrated

Dawns at Cafe du Monde."

 

Speaking of Douglas Brinkley, a friend of mine just called him the other

day, he won't be back until Monday (must be in NY planning the diary

excerpts, but my friend and I are trying to

start an open-mike poetry series here in the Crescent City.  I can't wait!

 

a ball of excitement,

        -matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:04:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

In-Reply-To:  <199709171948.MAA05974@hsc.usc.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> 

> Anyone know anything about this?

> 

> Is Brinkley the literary executor?

> 

Brinkley is currently writing the "authorized" biography of Kerouac, and

is also editing Kerouac's journals for publication.  In addition, because

of Ann Charters schedule committments, apparently he may take her place

and edit the second volume of Kerouac letters.

 

Apparently, John Sampas mustbe a big fan of Brinkley.  I guess he read

"Majic Bus" *shrug*

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:59:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I know something about the "writing/typing" story.  In 1958,

Truman Capote and Norman Mailer appeared together on David

Susskind's new Open End TV show.  Talk shows were in their

infancy then.  Capote, then a ten year veteran of the literary

wars, was jealous of the sturm and drang created by the appearance

of OTR and the Beats.  Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.  The

Press was looking for an excuse to dismiss the Beats.  Within a couple

of years, the beat generation was out of the newspapers and Capote had

played his angle to help bring it about. Of course, the whole counter

cultural idea reemerged by 1965 and the rest is history.

 

Mike Rice

 

At 04:39 PM 9/17/97 -0400, you wrote:

>At 12:48 PM 9/17/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>Hi,

>> 

>>I saw this posted at the New York Times web site.  They have a forum on

>>Kerouac going.  The topic is "Kerouac: Writer or Typist"  And the opening

>>question is "Truman Capote once said that Jack Kerouac's prose wasn't

>>writing, but typing. Dig it?".

>> 

>>Someone called ermoore with an e-mail address of erm@mail.utexas.edu

>>provided some interesting info.  He (or she) wrote:

>> 

>> 

>>          For anyone interested in a glimpse of Kerouac's

>>never-before-available road diaries, check out The

>>          New Yorker in the coming weeks. Kerouac's literary executor,

>>Douglas Brinkley (author of The

>>          Majic Bus and editor of Hunter S. Thompson's recently published

>>early correspondence The Proud

>>          Highway, among other things), is going to edit and publish this

>>epic journal and will be offering

>>          a few excerpts from the diaries in an upcoming issue of The New

>>Yorker.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>Anyone know anything about this?

>> 

>>Is Brinkley the literary executor?

>> 

>NO.  John Sampas, Jack's brother in law, is the Executor of The Estate of

>Jack Kerouac.

> 

>                                        -Jon

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:31:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: MoonFestival

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.91.970916221542.24320A-100000@sun>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> Sitting by the Net, guys, have you just looked out of windows

> to take an eye on the Moon? It's round and round, right?

> Tonight, Sep. 16, 1997, we are celebrating MoonFestival here.

> A special day, families are long for getting together,

> travelers'd be homesick. Folks take watching Moon

> as a great pleasure, wherever they are and however they are going on.

> A hope deep in hearts is that family is as round as today's Moon.

> 

> Thus the Moon you see now has received billions of lenient gaze

> last few hours. The road connecting Earth and Moon is so busy

> and is filled up with affection. You will never be refused

> if you wanta take a ride to Moon.

> 

> JK was getting his "the greatest ride in my life"

> from Gothenburg to Cheyenne

> under cold shining star

> he bought boys on the truck whisky

> "You can have a couple of shots!", boy

> 

> Now,in warm moonlight

> folks on the list

> would receive the old Chinese feeling

> and a piece of mooncake

> digitally

> 

> Ciao

> 

> Yan

> We share the Moon.

 

Yan

 

A lovely way of putting what many of us felt last night.  Here in the

desert, the moon looked larger than I've ever seen it.  Nice to know that

although we love our little electronic worlds, we still poke our heads

out now and then.

 

Jorgiana>

 

************** You can always tell a Texan, but not much.***************

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:59:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:59 PM 9/17/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I know something about the "writing/typing" story.  In 1958,

>Truman Capote and Norman Mailer appeared together on David

>Susskind's new Open End TV show.  Talk shows were in their

>infancy then.  Capote, then a ten year veteran of the literary

>wars, was jealous of the sturm and drang created by the appearance

>of OTR and the Beats.  Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

>the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

>the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.  The

>Press was looking for an excuse to dismiss the Beats.  Within a couple

>of years, the beat generation was out of the newspapers and Capote had

>played his angle to help bring it about. Of course, the whole counter

>cultural idea reemerged by 1965 and the rest is history.

> 

>Mike Rice

 

Teletype paper.  Teletype paper.  Teletype paper.  You can't type on toilet

paper - it's too thin; it would tear.  I've always heard Jack say he wrote

on Teletype paper.

                                        -Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:11:48 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: R: 36th anniversary on terra firma

 

In a message dated 97-09-16 13:12:22 EDT, dufour@ULISSE.IT writes:

 

<< 

 Happy birthday David !!!

 

 Ciao !

 Francesco

  >>

 

 

Belated wishes to you......

 

 

one soundtrack playing the mekons...

    another, throbbing gristle......

s/e/

 

i love the sound track threat..........

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:12:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: bardo

 

In a message dated 97-09-16 10:03:24 EDT, nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA (Neil

Hennessy) writes:

 

<<  Saturday September 20

 > Bardo is a tibetan buddist tradition.  Approximately 49 days after

 > death.

 >  images and or objects associated with wsb will be burned.

 > p

 >

 What is this about? What's being burned? And why? Please explain.

  >>

me too, me too, yea, I want to know....

 

burn me if you must.......

 

s.e.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:45:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>From the Kerouac Quarterly:

 

Douglas Brinkley will have published a biography of Jimmy Carter. Look for

him in the future to be involved with some major Kerouac projects which I am

not at liberty to say right now until he is positively contractually obligated.

 

More in the future on The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page to be found at:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:26:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Death stalking around my door/long/true/personal

Comments: To: hey joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.solidsolutions.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I received a phone call tonight that two of my "friends" from high

school died last week.  I say friends in quotes because only one was a

friend, the other was at best a rival.  They lived entirely different

lifes.  The woman, who was my friend, was called the essence of

womanhood by our eighth grade social studies teacher, was cheerleader

etc., was a counselor, married to a Presbyterian minister, and had the

requisite two lovely children.  On the other hand, apparently, she was

anorexic (sp?) and depressed, and committed suicide.  Very tragic to

know how the illness is still not understood and how she could not have

been helped.

 

The other a male, was the "bad kid" in high school, and when I last saw

him he was mainlining speed, lsd (couldn't get off on orange sunshine

without running it up) and heroin.  Once, I talked him down from a trip

where he was burning in hell.  When I got him oriented, he laughed, said

that was fun, and wanted to do it again.  I tried to never be in his

presence again after that.  He went on a killing spree in a supermarket

in Texas and was in "the big house."  When his father died, his step

mother moved to Texas and married him in prison.  But in the end, he

redeemed himself.  In prison, he heard that someone had killed some

children.  He snitched the man, and they apparently solved several

murders of children.  He was under "protection" in the Texas system and

died of sudden congestive heart failure.  Whatever.

 

Yesterday, I got some very disheartening personal news.  As  I was

driving home with my three children and they were yelling and fighting I

felt like I might just lose it.  It seemed so hopeless.  But I looked at

the three of them and realized that the only thing that matters is

loving them so well.  Any thoughts of "running away" were dissipated.

Tonight a friend of mine called with some ideas that might solve some of

the problems I ran into yesterday.  Maybe it will work out in a positive

way.

 

I chose to avoid the way my male friend went some 27 years ago, and am

glad I did.  But, he did some good in the end.  He gave some closure to

some parents.   I envied what I knew of "Essence" and always had

bemoaned the fact that I had not been able to be like her.  But, I just

didn't know.  (Richard Cory in real life here).  Life is a funny thing.

I suppose there is a novel, short story and a poem in the middle of all

that.

 

What sadness, what hope, what tragedy, what redemption, what life is

this and does it just go spinning off into space?  There is meaning?

There is hope?  There are children.  Jimi Hendrix said once, we got to

tell our children the truth.  So that is my truth right now from

Columbia SC from a man who is tired and pondering, but I ain't giving up

man. No, I am not giving up.  This kinda of puts things in perspective

real well.  I figure we all got some story like this at some time or

another.  If we just live long enought, eh?

 

>From the heart, to my cyber friends on the beat list and the Hendrix

list, and if you pray, I could use a few right now.  I think Dylan said,

"If there's an original thought out there, I could use it right now."

 

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:46:45 +0530

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Death stalking around my door/long/true/personal

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> I received a phone call tonight that two of my "friends" from high

> school died last week.  I say friends in quotes because only one was a

> friend, the other was at best a rival.  They lived entirely different

> lifes.  The woman, who was my friend, was called the essence of

> womanhood by our eighth grade social studies teacher, was cheerleader

> etc., was a counselor, married to a Presbyterian minister, and had the

> requisite two lovely children.  On the other hand, apparently, she was

> anorexic (sp?) and depressed, and committed suicide.  Very tragic to

> know how the illness is still not understood and how she could not have

> been helped.

> 

> The other a male, was the "bad kid" in high school, and when I last saw

> him he was mainlining speed, lsd (couldn't get off on orange sunshine

> without running it up) and heroin.  Once, I talked him down from a trip

> where he was burning in hell.  When I got him oriented, he laughed, said

> that was fun, and wanted to do it again.  I tried to never be in his

> presence again after that.  He went on a killing spree in a supermarket

> in Texas and was in "the big house."  When his father died, his step

> mother moved to Texas and married him in prison.  But in the end, he

> redeemed himself.  In prison, he heard that someone had killed some

> children.  He snitched the man, and they apparently solved several

> murders of children.  He was under "protection" in the Texas system and

> died of sudden congestive heart failure.  Whatever.

> 

> Yesterday, I got some very disheartening personal news.  As  I was

> driving home with my three children and they were yelling and fighting I

> felt like I might just lose it.  It seemed so hopeless.  But I looked at

> the three of them and realized that the only thing that matters is

> loving them so well.  Any thoughts of "running away" were dissipated.

> Tonight a friend of mine called with some ideas that might solve some of

> the problems I ran into yesterday.  Maybe it will work out in a positive

> way.

> 

> I chose to avoid the way my male friend went some 27 years ago, and am

> glad I did.  But, he did some good in the end.  He gave some closure to

> some parents.   I envied what I knew of "Essence" and always had

> bemoaned the fact that I had not been able to be like her.  But, I just

> didn't know.  (Richard Cory in real life here).  Life is a funny thing.

> I suppose there is a novel, short story and a poem in the middle of all

> that.

> 

> What sadness, what hope, what tragedy, what redemption, what life is

> this and does it just go spinning off into space?  There is meaning?

> There is hope?  There are children.  Jimi Hendrix said once, we got to

> tell our children the truth.  So that is my truth right now from

> Columbia SC from a man who is tired and pondering, but I ain't giving up

> man. No, I am not giving up.  This kinda of puts things in perspective

> real well.  I figure we all got some story like this at some time or

> another.  If we just live long enought, eh?

> 

> >From the heart, to my cyber friends on the beat list and the Hendrix

> list, and if you pray, I could use a few right now.  I think Dylan said,

> "If there's an original thought out there, I could use it right now."

> 

> Peace,

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> 

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

hey man ...

desolation row is tough some days

luckily there are other days

see you in tomorrow

i expect that you should be there

just ride the waves

through

the abysses

and find paths

to make it easier

the next time around

whether it is next week or next life.

 

Do EZ,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:54:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Gregorio <Subterr7@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Saturday in Boulder

 

The Boulder Blues Festival is this weekend in Central Park, Arapahoe and 13th

from 11am until 7pm.  Free adm.  Corey Harris and others playing.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:24:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      one more SPIN observation

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

today in the bookstore where i work, I had the honor of tearing up the

many "unsold" copies of SPIN which the burroughs article appeared. Just

to let everyobe know, this atrocious magazine doesn't sell. Then again,

maybe if Burroughs was on the cover instead of a little blurb on the

bottom right corner, more issues would be sold and SPIN would be

obligated to write a better article on him. I am still recovering

from the barrage of Princess Diane magazines and biographies that my

co-workers and i must endure from other publications Thank god Old Bull

Lee hasn't succumbed to a similar fate.

                                        jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:33:01 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: MoonFestival

In-Reply-To:  <9709162123.aa17187@mail.cruzio.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Leon Tabory wrote:

> Howling at the moon

 

The moon is a quiet spirit.

Must get tired of all that howling.

I wave, shyly.

Once I looked through the telescope eyepiece so long

I got moon blindness.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                o                                       o

                o  The electrical depths of personality o

                o                                       o

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:59:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "john v. omlor" <omlor@PACKET.NET>

Subject:      For whoever was looking for Blake quote...

Comments: To: RAINDOGS@LISTSERV.HEA.IE

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Finally, my chance to make the PhD. pay off...

 

Somebody on one of these two lists (I've lost the original post) asked

about a Blake quatrain and provided the last two lines...

 

The quote is from Blake's poem *Eternity*, collected in his *Notebook Poems

and Fragments *c.* 1789-93*.  It's a single quatrain and can be found on

page 153 of the *Complete Poems*, published by Penquin and edited by Alicia

Ostriker.

 

It goes,

 

 

ETERNITY

 

 

He who binds to himself a joy

Does the winged life destroy

But he who kisses the joy as it flies

Lives in eternity's sun rise

 

 

 

(In the first draft, Blake had "binds himself to a joy" in line 1; "But he

who just kisses..." in line three; and "Lives in an eternal sun rise" in

the final line.)

 

Hope this helps.

 

--John

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:06:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alison Flynn <Limeskydip@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Saturday in Boulder

 

Pearl Street,s a good one but Arapahoe's pretty bare (Naropa, housing disembod

ied is there though)

 

Check out broadway and Spruce.

 

Alison

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:57:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Feng Yan <xbchen@SUN.NANKAI.EDU.CN>

Subject:      Re: MoonFestival

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A41.3.96.970917183011.134670A-100000@mustique.u.arizona.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Jorgiana S Jake wrote:

 

> > Sitting by the Net, guys, have you just looked out of windows

> > to take an eye on the Moon? It's round and round, right?

> > Tonight, Sep. 16, 1997, we are celebrating MoonFestival here.

> > A special day, families are long for getting together,

> > travelers'd be homesick. Folks take watching Moon

> > as a great pleasure, wherever they are and however they are going on.

> > A hope deep in hearts is that family is as round as today's Moon.

> >

> > Thus the Moon you see now has received billions of lenient gaze

> > last few hours. The road connecting Earth and Moon is so busy

> > and is filled up with affection. You will never be refused

> > if you wanta take a ride to Moon.

> >

> > JK was getting his "the greatest ride in my life"

> > from Gothenburg to Cheyenne

> > under cold shining star

> > he bought boys on the truck whisky

> > "You can have a couple of shots!", boy

> >

> > Now,in warm moonlight

> > folks on the list

> > would receive the old Chinese feeling

> > and a piece of mooncake

> > digitally

> >

> > Ciao

> >

> > Yan

> > We share the Moon.

> 

> Yan

> 

> A lovely way of putting what many of us felt last night.  Here in the

> desert, the moon looked larger than I've ever seen it.  Nice to know that

> although we love our little electronic worlds, we still poke our heads

> out now and then.

> 

> Jorgiana>

> 

> ************** You can always tell a Texan, but not much.***************

> 

Jorgiana,

 

I have two windows, one open to real world, another to soul. I climb out

the latter to join this electronic world, and look out of the former

to watch the Moon.

 

Yan

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:01:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Feng Yan <xbchen@SUN.NANKAI.EDU.CN>

Subject:      Re: bardo

In-Reply-To:  <970917221026_1123687532@emout08.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Sean Elias wrote:

 

> In a message dated 97-09-16 10:03:24 EDT, nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA (Neil

> Hennessy) writes:

> 

> <<  Saturday September 20

>  > Bardo is a tibetan buddist tradition.  Approximately 49 days after

>  > death.

>  >  images and or objects associated with wsb will be burned.

>  > p

>  >

>  What is this about? What's being burned? And why? Please explain.

>   >>

> me too, me too, yea, I want to know....

> 

> burn me if you must.......

> 

> s.e.

> 

I remember some traditions here after all those description of bardo.

It seems to have something to do every seven days after one's death.

49 days is seven time seven days, folks from my born county call it

"seven seven". My father know such things well, but I not. Families

would burn commoditis the dead used, plus to money for hell. They

think those "money" would support the dead's afterlife life. :)

 

Yan

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:58:42 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:53:58 -0400 Diane De Rooy wrote:

 

> From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:53:58 -0400

> Subject: Re: something to SPIN...

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> To Tom Harberd--

> 

> Tim Gallaher is not the author of that Burroughs stuff,

but just one of the

> respondents to it. The author is Dennis Cooper, and the

article appears in

> this month's issue of SPIN magazine.

> 

> I posted the article to the list for comment. All those

who disagree with

> Cooper's assessment should also consider writing to SPIN

to register their

> complaints formally.

> 

Ahh... Sorry about that (sorry Tim.)

So now I realise what all the fuss is about the article.

Since by all sounds SPIN are (in Bill Hick's immortal words)

"Suckers of satan's cock" I doubt I'll be buying the issue

should it even appear on this side of the Atlantic.  Still

seems wierd that Ginsberg got so much media coverage, but

Burroughs just sank without a sign.  Probable because I was

in Belize when it happened, but still...

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"A Bear of Very Little Brain"

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:47:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The Ginsberg documentary on American Masters

was very good.  I found myself reading along

with Howl.  Ginsberg was a nice fellow and

Howl is a masterpiece.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:42:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg (was Re: something to SPIN...)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mike Rice wrote:

> 

> The Ginsberg documentary on American Masters

> was very good.  I found myself reading along

> with Howl.  Ginsberg was a nice fellow and

> Howl is a masterpiece.

> 

> Mike Rice

 

I really enjoyed the documentary too.  Near the end, he seemed to read

quite a bit from Cosmopolitan Greetings.  What really hit me were his

last words: "Allen Ginsberg warms you: Do not follow my path to

extinction."  Does anyone know what poem this is the ending to?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:42:58 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:14:28 -0400 from <stutz@DSL.ORG>

 

The PBS stations are selling the tape of the broadcast for $29.  Contact your l

ocal pbs station.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:05:56 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      rInAlDo!!! r u there?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

rinaldo: i have lost the bookmark for your web site. could you or any

one else getting spammed kindly send the address?

many thanks

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:48:59 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:04 PM 9/17/97 -0400, you wrote:

>> 

>> Anyone know anything about this?

>> 

>> Is Brinkley the literary executor?

>> 

>Brinkley is currently writing the "authorized" biography of Kerouac, and

>is also editing Kerouac's journals for publication.  In addition, because

>of Ann Charters schedule committments, apparently he may take her place

>and edit the second volume of Kerouac letters.

> 

Brinkley is indeed writing the authorized biography. He is also editing the

Kerouac journals which will appear in three separate books over the years.

Ann Charters is still the editor of the second volume of selected letters.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:14:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg (was Re: something to SPI

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     The poem is "After Lalon" from Cosmopolitan Greetings.

     Interesting note: in the selected poems this last stanza is

     edited out. It would be interesting to find out why.

 

     Sean D. Young

     syoung@dsw.com

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg (was Re: something to SPIN...

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    9/17/97 10:42 PM

 

 

Mike Rice wrote:

> 

> The Ginsberg documentary on American Masters

> was very good.  I found myself reading along

> with Howl.  Ginsberg was a nice fellow and

> Howl is a masterpiece.

> 

> Mike Rice

 

I really enjoyed the documentary too.  Near the end, he seemed to read

quite a bit from Cosmopolitan Greetings.  What really hit me were his

last words: "Allen Ginsberg warms you: Do not follow my path to

extinction."  Does anyone know what poem this is the ending to?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:25:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: SPIN

 

Dr. Adam,

 

I must say that I agree with you about the Spin article, but please don't

lump all of children of gen. X fame into the same category. "Punk" kids

aren't the only ones who spend their time at coffeehouses. Personally, i find

it a productive enviornment for poets and kids trying to break from the

traditions of yore. I go for the open mics, a chance to read my poetry and be

recieved. Its an intimate atmosphere, hazy and warm. As for the article,

you're right about ignoring it, but please don't shove kids like me in that

psuedo-intellectual, post-punk, diseased set simply because we congregate in

coffeehouses. Thanks, and I really back your opinion save the coffehouse bit,

your insight has value.

 

                                                        Thank you again,

                                                          ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:28:53 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Alcock, Denis" <alcockd@BESTWESTERN.COM>

Subject:      Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art theatre.

As some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about

15-20 minutes edited from the original film.  The most priceless portion

of the entire film wasn't shown on PBS.  The scene involved AG chanting

and playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show.  AG was totally

into his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled

AG on the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes

interact.

 

 

Denis Alcock

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:18:17 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Re: For whoever was looking for Blake quote...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     FYI:

 

     This Blake poem is on the plaque outside the

     Allen Ginsberg library at Naropa.

     I also read a Dylan interview by Jonathan Cott

     (from Rolling Stone 1978) where Dylan quotes

     this poem and mentions that Ginsberg was

     always quoting that poem to him.

 

     SDY

     syoung@dsw.com

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: For whoever was looking for Blake quote...

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    9/17/97 11:59 PM

 

 

Finally, my chance to make the PhD. pay off...

 

Somebody on one of these two lists (I've lost the original post) asked

about a Blake quatrain and provided the last two lines...

 

The quote is from Blake's poem *Eternity*, collected in his *Notebook Poems

and Fragments *c.* 1789-93*.  It's a single quatrain and can be found on

page 153 of the *Complete Poems*, published by Penquin and edited by Alicia

Ostriker.

 

It goes,

 

 

ETERNITY

 

 

He who binds to himself a joy

Does the winged life destroy

But he who kisses the joy as it flies

Lives in eternity's sun rise

 

 

 

(In the first draft, Blake had "binds himself to a joy" in line 1; "But he

who just kisses..." in line three; and "Lives in an eternal sun rise" in

the final line.)

 

Hope this helps.

 

--John

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:45:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Death stalking around my door/long/true/personal

 

 A friend of mine died this summer, real freak accident, got hit by the back

door of a truck as she walking alongside the road. Hadn't talked to her in

about a year. I was worried about her she'd dropped out of college was into a

lot of drugs, but i had the insane notion that i might eventually run into

her or call her sometime. then, poof she dies. put a lot into perspective for

me. i don't have any children (of my own) to look at for answers, but i am so

more aware of my own mortality. i can admit  that it scares me. there's a

poem in that too. i wrote a kind of elegy for my friend and dived deep into

Ginsberg's elegies for Neal Cassady for support as well as inspiration and

guidance. They are so touching and haunting and sad. I guess the only thing

we can do is celebrate life because we haven't died yet. Grab onto to things,

"share the moon" like Yan said. We can all share tragedy as well, thats why

we're human.

I have so many things I wished i'd said to her or i'd wished i'd done, but

the bottomline is its real, and it could happen to me or somebody else i

love. but, i can't live everyday afraid, so i'll delight in the little

nothings; a cigarette with a cup of coffee,the way the sky looks before it

rains, full moons, my little brother's goofy faces, life in general. I'll

hold it along with the memory of my friend.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Marlene~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:50:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art theatre.

>As some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about

>15-20 minutes edited from the original film.  The most priceless portion

>of the entire film wasn't shown on PBS.  The scene involved AG chanting

>and playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show.  AG was totally

>into his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled

>AG on the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes

>interact.

> 

> 

>Denis Alcock

> 

Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage.  Is the footage you

are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh special?

 

 

                                                -Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:15:39 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg:

 

     Produced and Directed by Jerry Aronson

 

     you can purchase a copy from First Run Features by calling

     1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.

     This is the one that was shown in theaters, I have rented it

     from my local art theatre/video place.

     It does have the Buckley footage.

     Note:

     When I was at the Ginsberg tribute at Naropa in '94

     Jerry Aronson showed out-takes from the film which was

     basically the extended Ginsberg and Burroughs dialogue.

     It was great.

     Also saw "Pull my Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?

 

     SDY

     syoung@dsw.com

     ______________________________ Reply Separator

     _________________________________

     Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    9/18/97 12:50 PM

 

 

At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art theatre. >As

some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about >15-20

minutes edited from the original film.  The most priceless portion >of the

entire film wasn't shown on PBS.  The scene involved AG chanting >and

playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show.  AG was totally >into

his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled >AG on

the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes >interact.

> 

> 

>Denis Alcock

> 

Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage.  Is the footage you

are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh special?

 

 

                                                -Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:19:37 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      A Proletarian Writer.

In-Reply-To:  <341DE443.3B99@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        KEEp THE RED FlaG FLYIng

        Only Charles Bukowski could do it.

 

                Burroughs?

                Kerouac?

 

                        No more!

 

        BookList?

 

        WE HAVE ONLY    B U K O W S K I!!!

 

        Only Charles Bukowski could do it.

        Workers!        Save The Workers!!!

 

        Burroughs?

        Kerouac?

 

                No more!!!

 

        ONLY BUKOWSKI!!!

        Save The Factory!

        ONLY BUKOWSKY FOR SALE!!!

 

        (even if Bukowski

        seems artaud,

        or celine)

 

        THIS IS A PROLETARIAN.

        ONE     OF      US!     SAVE OUR LIFE!!!

        Only Charles Bukowski could do it.

 

 

 

Rinaldo.

18th sep 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:19:04 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Alcock, Denis" <alcockd@BESTWESTERN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

I've seen the video at Blockbuster.  I assume it is unedited.

 

Denis Alcock

 

> ----------

> From:         Jonathan Pickle[SMTP:jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU]

> Reply To:     BEAT-L: Beat Generation List

> Sent:         Thursday, September 18, 1997 9:50 AM

> To:   BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

> 

> At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

> >I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art theatre.

> >As some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was

> about

> >15-20 minutes edited from the original film.  The most priceless

> portion

> >of the entire film wasn't shown on PBS.  The scene involved AG

> chanting

> >and playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show.  AG was totally

> >into his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had

> scheduled

> >AG on the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes

> >interact.

> >

> >

> >Denis Alcock

> >

> Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage.  Is the footage

> you

> are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh

> special?

> 

> 

>                                                 -Jon

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:43:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Fellow Beat-l'ers,

 

Man, it's been a long time since I've posted here, have been enjoying my

relatively quiet lurk status. . .  absorbing the wonderful conversations

that fill this list.  Thank you All!

 

You might want to check your local library for the full version of "The

Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg."  I've checked out the copy my library has

about 15 times since I found out they had it.  I wouldn't be surprised if

other libs have it stocked on their shelves. . .

 

Has anyone partaken of the various Kerouac video biographies?  Is there one

particular one that out shines the rest?  I'd like to see him move and

speak and be alive for a few moments, if only on my television screen.

 

It's funny, I purchased a couple of Coltrane documentaries a few months

ago.  One of them kicks ass, the other is so-so.  The thing is, neither of

them show him speaking.  The better of the two has a short sound bite of

him doing a voice over as he plays, but no shots of him actually talking.

If anyone knows of any footage or HAS any footage of him talking, I'd love

to barter with you for a copy. . .

 

Until the spirit moves me again,

 

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

 

P.S.  HELLO, Senor Tabory!

 

----------

> From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

> Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 1:15 PM

> 

>      The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg:

> 

>      Produced and Directed by Jerry Aronson

> 

>      you can purchase a copy from First Run Features by calling

>      1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.

>      This is the one that was shown in theaters, I have rented it

>      from my local art theatre/video place.

>      It does have the Buckley footage.

>      Note:

>      When I was at the Ginsberg tribute at Naropa in '94

>      Jerry Aronson showed out-takes from the film which was

>      basically the extended Ginsberg and Burroughs dialogue.

>      It was great.

>      Also saw "Pull my Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?

> 

>      SDY

>      syoung@dsw.com

>      ______________________________ Reply Separator

>      _________________________________

>      Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

> Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at

Internet

> Date:    9/18/97 12:50 PM

> 

> 

> At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

> >I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art theatre.

>As

> some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about

>15-20

> minutes edited from the original film.  The most priceless portion >of

the

> entire film wasn't shown on PBS.  The scene involved AG chanting >and

> playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show.  AG was totally >into

> his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled >AG

on

> the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes >interact.

> >

> >

> >Denis Alcock

> >

> Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage.  Is the footage you

> are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh special?

> 

> 

>                                                 -Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:52:19 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Re[4]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     Check out "Whatever happened to Kerouac". this is a must-see.

     It shows the Steve Allen appearence in all of it's glory.

     Very good.

 

     SDY

     syoung@dsw.com

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    9/18/97 1:43 PM

 

 

Fellow Beat-l'ers,

 

Man, it's been a long time since I've posted here, have been enjoying my

relatively quiet lurk status. . .  absorbing the wonderful conversations

that fill this list.  Thank you All!

 

You might want to check your local library for the full version of "The

Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg."  I've checked out the copy my library has

about 15 times since I found out they had it.  I wouldn't be surprised if

other libs have it stocked on their shelves. . .

 

Has anyone partaken of the various Kerouac video biographies?  Is there one

particular one that out shines the rest?  I'd like to see him move and

speak and be alive for a few moments, if only on my television screen.

 

It's funny, I purchased a couple of Coltrane documentaries a few months

ago.  One of them kicks ass, the other is so-so.  The thing is, neither of

them show him speaking.  The better of the two has a short sound bite of

him doing a voice over as he plays, but no shots of him actually talking.

If anyone knows of any footage or HAS any footage of him talking, I'd love

to barter with you for a copy. . .

 

Until the spirit moves me again,

 

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

 

P.S.  HELLO, Senor Tabory!

 

----------

> From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

> Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 1:15 PM

> 

>      The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg:

> 

>      Produced and Directed by Jerry Aronson

> 

>      you can purchase a copy from First Run Features by calling

>      1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.

>      This is the one that was shown in theaters, I have rented it

>      from my local art theatre/video place.

>      It does have the Buckley footage.

>      Note:

>      When I was at the Ginsberg tribute at Naropa in '94

>      Jerry Aronson showed out-takes from the film which was

>      basically the extended Ginsberg and Burroughs dialogue.

>      It was great.

>      Also saw "Pull my Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?

> 

>      SDY

>      syoung@dsw.com

>      ______________________________ Reply Separator

>      _________________________________

>      Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

> Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at

Internet

> Date:    9/18/97 12:50 PM

> 

> 

> At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

> >I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art theatre.

>As

> some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about

>15-20

> minutes edited from the original film.  The most priceless portion >of

the

> entire film wasn't shown on PBS.  The scene involved AG chanting >and

> playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show.  AG was totally >into

> his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled >AG

on

> the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes >interact.

> >

> >

> >Denis Alcock

> >

> Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage.  Is the footage you

> are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh special?

> 

> 

>                                                 -Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:48:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:15 AM 9/18/97 -0600, you wrote:

>     The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg:

> 

>     Produced and Directed by Jerry Aronson

> 

>     you can purchase a copy from First Run Features by calling

>     1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.

>     This is the one that was shown in theaters, I have rented it

>     from my local art theatre/video place.

>     It does have the Buckley footage.

>     Note:

>     When I was at the Ginsberg tribute at Naropa in '94

>     Jerry Aronson showed out-takes from the film which was

>     basically the extended Ginsberg and Burroughs dialogue.

>     It was great.

>     Also saw "Pull my Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?

> 

>     SDY

>     syoung@dsw.com

>     ______________________________ Reply Separator

>     _________________________________

 

I received a copy of a catalog from the old 1800Kerouac bookstore in CA.  I

believe it has changed its name to Fog City Books.  You can find it on the

web to get the phone.  _Pull My Daisy_ was in the catolog for 39.95 plus

shipping and all.  That was in May and they said they had limited copies.

I didn't have enough money to pay for it so I didn't.  I don't know if its

still available.

 

                                                -Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:00:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac book covers

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Today as I stood in my hometown's major used bookstore, I faced a literary

feast.  Last night the proprietor called to let me know that he had just

purchased a fairly large collection of Beat literature.  So today, as the

store opened, I stood in front of a selection of first edition Kerouac's,

Burroughs, and Ginsberg (1).  Needless to say, I couldn't afford any of

the first ed.s.  Ouch!

 

Anyhow, I ended up purchasing many first or second printing paperbacks.

I know that some of you must have experienced the dismay that I felt this

morning, while glancing at some of the Kerouac covers.  For instance, my

edition

of Maggie Cassidy looks like the cover of a Harlequin novel.  Granted, the

publishers wanted to sell books, and so did Kerouac, but it seems to me

that the cover alone could have detracted from the serious literary

contribution he had to make.  In other words, the "hippies" were

purchasing the books, not the professors.  Perhaps that was how Jack

wanted it.

 

As a disclaimer, I would like to add that I used the term "hippie" in

reference to a complaint that Jack once made.  Sorry, I can't remember the

source, but it was something to the effect that all the rich college kids

were buying (Salinger or Capote's?) hardbacks, while only "hippies" were

buying his paperbacks.

 

Do any of you have any thoughts regarding the cheapening of Kerouac works

by tawdry sex covers? (I apologize now if this is a thread which has been

hashed out in the past.)

 

Jenn Thompson

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:54:26 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      La Loca. A  Beat Poetess.

In-Reply-To:  <341DE443.3B99@midusa.net>

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        Why I choose Black Men for My Lovers    by La Loca

 

        Acid today

        is trendy entertainment

        but in 1967

        Eating it was eucharistic

                and made us fully visionary

 

        My girlfriend and I used to get cranked up

                and we'd land in

                The Haight

                and oh yeah

                The Black Guys Knew Who We Were

                But the white boys were stupid

 

        I started out in San Fernando

                My unmarried mother did not abort me

                because Tijuana was unaffordable

                They stuffed me in a crib of invisibility

                I was bottle-fed germicides and aspirin

                My nannies were cathode tubes

                I reached adolescence, anyway

                Thanks to Bandini and sprinklers

 

        In 1967 I stepped through a windowpane

                and I got real

                I saw Mother Earth and Big Brother

                and

                I clipped my roots which chocked in the

                        concrete

                        of Sunset Boulevard

                to go with my girlfriend

                from Berkeley to San Francisco

                hitchhiking

                and we discovered

                that Spades were groovy

                and

                White boys were mass-produced and

                watered their lawns

                        artificially with long green hoses in

                        West L.A.

 

        There I was, in Avalon Ballroom

                in vintage pink satin, buckskin and

                        patchouli

                        pioneering the sexual

                        revolution

        I used to be the satyr's moll, half-woman

        and in pink satin hung

                loose about me

                like an intention

        I ate lysergic for breakfast, lunch and

                        dinner

                I was a dead-end in the off-limits of

                        The Establishment

                        and morality was open to interpretation

 

        In my neighborhood, if you fucked around, you were a whore

 

        But I was an emigree, now

                I watched the planeloads of white boys fly

                        up from Hamilton High

                They were the vanguard

                        of the Revolution

                They stepped off the plane

                        in threadbare work shirts

                        with rolled-up sleeves

                        and a Shell Oil, a Bankamericar,

                        a mastercharge in their back pocket

                        with their father's name on it

                Planeloads of Revolutionaries

                For matins, they quoted Marcuse and Huey Newton

                For vespers, they instructed young girls from

                        San Fernando to

                        Fuck Everybody

                To not comply, was fascist

        I watched the planeloads of white boys

                fly up from Hamilton High

        All the boys from my high school were shipped to

                Vietnam

        And I was in Berkeley, screwing little white boys

                who were remonstrating for peace

                In bed, the pusillanimous hands of war protestors

                        taught me Marxist philosophy:

                Our neighborhoods are a life sentence

                This was their balling stage and they

                        were politicians

                I was an apparition with orifices

                I knew they were insurance salesmen in their

                        hearts

                And they would all die of attacks

                I went down on them anyway, because I had

                        consciousness

                Verified by my intake of acid

                I was no peasant!

                I went down on little white boys and

                they filled my head with

                        Communism

                They informed me that poor people didn't have

                        money and were oppressed

                Some people were Black and Chicano

                Some women even had illegitimate children

                Meanwhile, my thighs were bloodthirsty

                        whelps

                and could never get enough of anything

        and those little communists were stingy

        I was seventeen

                and wanted to see the world

                My flowering was chemical

                I cut my teeth on promiscuity and medicine

                I stepped through more windowpanes

                        and it really got oracular

        In 1968

        One night

        The shaman laid some holy shit on me and wow

        I knew

        in 1985

                The world would still be white, germicidially

                        white

                That the ethos of affluence

                was an indelible

                white boy trait

                like blue eyes

                That Volkswagons would be traded in for

                        Ferraris

                        and would be driven with the same

                        snotty pluck that sniveled around

                        the doors of Fillmore, looking cool

        I knew those guys, I knew them when they had posters of

                Che Guevara over their bed

                They all had poster of Che Guevara over

                        their bed

                And I looked into Che's black eyes all

                        night while I lay in those beds,

                        ignored

        Now these guys have names on doors on the 18th floor of

                towers in Encino

                They have ex-wives and dope connections.

        Even my girlfriend married a condo owner in Van Nuys.

 

        In proper white Marxist theoretician nomenclature, I was

                a tramp.

        The rich girls were called "liberated."

 

        I was a female for San Fernando

                and the San Francisco Black Men and I

                had a lot in common

                Eyes, for example

                dilated

                with the opacity of "fuck you"

                I saw them and they saw me

                We didn't need an ophthalmologist to get it on

                We laid each other on a foundation of

                        visibility

                and our fuck

                was no hypothesis

 

        Now that I was worldly

                I wanted to correct

                the nervous blue eyes who flew up from

                Brentwood

        to see Hendrix

        but

        when I stared into them

        They always lost focus

        and got lighter and lighter

        and

        No wonder Malcolm called them Devils.

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:14:17 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

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     SNIP-OROONEY

>Do any of you have any thoughts regarding the cheapening of Kerouac works

>by tawdry sex covers? (I apologize now if this is a thread which has been

>hashed out in the past.)

 

>Jenn Thompson

     END SNIP-OROONEY

 

     I, for one, like them.  You have to consider the times, the target,

     and the companies involved.  The Subterraneans cover (one of my

     favorites) looks like it should, a dime store novel--a la Junkie and

     Queer (excellent "trashy" covers as well--and befitting it's theme.

     Kitsch, trash, whatever you call, it was "sensational" then and it's

     nostalgic now.

 

     I am, and will always be a Kerouac fan, he was a literary pioneer, one

     of the best writers (IMVHO) that ever lived, a giant.  He was not;

     however, ever marketed as such.  Like Celine, Jack wrote for the

     masses, not for the critics--I actually believe that Jack stuck to his

     vision (with notable exceptions) and wrote for himself.

 

     love and tawdry lilies,

 

     matt h.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:07:24 +0530

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

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MATT HANNAN wrote:

> 

>      SNIP-OROONEY The Subterraneans cover (one of my

>      favorites) looks like it should, a dime store novel--a la Junkie and

>      Queer (excellent "trashy" covers as well--and befitting it's theme.

>      Kitsch, trash, whatever you call, it was "sensational" then and it's

>      nostalgic now.

 

Speaking of Dimestores, i got a paperback copy (not 1st edition) of

Desolation Angels at Goodwill today for a dime.

 

dbr

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:23:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

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At 01:43 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Fellow Beat-l'ers,

> 

>Man, it's been a long time since I've posted here, have been enjoying my

>relatively quiet lurk status. . .  absorbing the wonderful conversations

>that fill this list.  Thank you All!

> 

>You might want to check your local library for the full version of "The

>Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg."  I've checked out the copy my library has

>about 15 times since I found out they had it.  I wouldn't be surprised if

>other libs have it stocked on their shelves. . .

> 

>Has anyone partaken of the various Kerouac video biographies?  Is there one

>particular one that out shines the rest?  I'd like to see him move and

>speak and be alive for a few moments, if only on my television screen.

> 

>It's funny, I purchased a couple of Coltrane documentaries a few months

>ago.  One of them kicks ass, the other is so-so.  The thing is, neither of

>them show him speaking.  The better of the two has a short sound bite of

>him doing a voice over as he plays, but no shots of him actually talking.

>If anyone knows of any footage or HAS any footage of him talking, I'd love

>to barter with you for a copy. . .

> 

>Until the spirit moves me again,

> 

>Bruce

>bwhartmanjr@iname.com

>http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

> 

>P.S.  HELLO, Senor Tabory!

> 

Ive got a copy of the John Antonelli video from Mystic Fire and its pretty

good, it's got some live footage of JK and other commentary by AG and other

beats.  It's about 70 minutes long and sells for around 30.00 dollars.

Call them or write back to the list.

 

                                                        -Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:46:34 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: La Loca. A  Beat Poetess.

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I started out in San Fernando

                My unmarried mother did not abort me

                because Tijuana was unaffordable

                They stuffed me in a crib of invisibility

                I was bottle-fed germicides and aspirin

                My nannies were cathode tubes

                I reached adolescence, anyway

                Thanks to Bandini and sprinklers

 

        In 1967 I stepped through a windowpane

                and I got real

                I saw Mother Earth and Big Brother

 

i love these metaphors and images. so real. i too was stuffed in a crib

of invisibility, tvs were my nannies, and i too stepped through that

windowpane(wonderful word play).

thanks for the pome of the day, rinaldo

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:48:54 -0400

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From:         Aaron Sinkovich <sinkovia@MNSFLD.EDU>

Subject:      Kaddish and Life&Times

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I saw The Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg  last night on PBS.  It was great.

I especially liked hearing Ginsberg read the excerpt from Kaddish.  It gave

me new insights into this poem.  Does anyone know where I could get an audio

recording of Kaddish?

 

 

Aaron F. Sinkovich

sinkovia@mnsfld.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:58:30 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:14:17 -0400 from

              <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

 

I love those trashy covers.  In fact, I've sent one to Paul Maher to post on th

e Kerouac Quarterly web site.  Look forward to a wonderful cover from a British

 edition of Tristessa.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:57:02 +0530

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kaddish and Life&Times

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Aaron Sinkovich wrote:

> 

> I saw The Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg  last night on PBS.  It was great.

> I especially liked hearing Ginsberg read the excerpt from Kaddish.  It gave

> me new insights into this poem.  Does anyone know where I could get an audio

> recording of Kaddish?

> 

> Aaron F. Sinkovich

> sinkovia@mnsfld.edu

 

60 minute version in the four CD boxset

"Allen Ginsberg, Holy Soul Jelly Roll Poems and Songs 1949-1993"

produced by Hal Willner

Rhino/Wordbeat

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:12:23 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Kaddish and Life&Times

In-Reply-To:  <199709181948.PAA01361@wheat.mnsfld.edu>

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aaron

as far as i know the only (??) complete recorded versionof "kaddish" is on

AG's _holy soul jelly roll_ box set (available on CD and cassette) and

"kaddish" alone runs around 60 minutes

hope that helps

derek

 

On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Aaron Sinkovich wrote:

 

> 

> I saw The Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg  last night on PBS.  It was great.

> I especially liked hearing Ginsberg read the excerpt from Kaddish.  It gave

> me new insights into this poem.  Does anyone know where I could get an audio

> recording of Kaddish?

> 

> 

> Aaron F. Sinkovich

> sinkovia@mnsfld.edu

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:13:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kaddish and Life&Times

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At 03:48 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I saw The Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg  last night on PBS.  It was great.

>I especially liked hearing Ginsberg read the excerpt from Kaddish.  It gave

>me new insights into this poem.  Does anyone know where I could get an audio

>recording of Kaddish?

> 

> 

>Aaron F. Sinkovich

>sinkovia@mnsfld.edu

> 

There is a 4CD box set of Allen reciting his poetry.  It includes Kaddish

and Howl and many others.  I believe on two of he discs Bob Dylan plays in

the back.  Though I'm not sure if the Dylan albums with Ginsberg are the

same as these.  The box set sells for around 50.00 dollars.

                                                                -Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:31:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kaddish and Life&Times

 

Dear Aaron, (and beat list)

 

I saw special last night, blown away, what a great poet!

 

My company Words on Wheels

distributes poetry recordings

We have Kaddish on

Holy Soul Jelly Roll (Rhino Records)

It's a 4 CD set

Kaddish length is listed as 63:24

also has Howl

includes booklet

with photos and track by track

commentary by Ginsberg.

 

List price in stores is 49.98

Special beat list price

including shipping, handling,

and tax is 40.00

you may pay by credit card

or if you prefer

I will send it to you COD

if you have any questions

you can reach me during the day

at 415.892.0158

or at home 415.221.6197

 

Gary Glazner

Words on Wheels

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:56:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19970917195316.1aa7a592@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

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On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

 

> of OTR and the Beats.  Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

> the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

> the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.

 

Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for submission? I

couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in brown

paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:04:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

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At 04:56 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

> 

>> of OTR and the Beats.  Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

>> the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

>> the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.

> 

>Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for submission? I

>couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in brown

>paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

> 

Ive always heard that he typed OTR as he typed many of his ms on teletype

paper from the begining and that the toilet paper story is

misinterpretation.  I could be wrong.

 

                                                -Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:27:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Macy <rodmacy@IQUEST.NET>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

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Jonathan Pickle wrote:

> 

> At 11:15 AM 9/18/97 -0600, you wrote:

> >     The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg:

> >

> >     Produced and Directed by Jerry Aronson

> >

> >     you can purchase a copy from First Run Features by calling

> >     1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.

> >     This is the one that was shown in theaters, I have rented it

> >     from my local art theatre/video place.

> >     It does have the Buckley footage.

> >     Note:

> >     When I was at the Ginsberg tribute at Naropa in '94

> >     Jerry Aronson showed out-takes from the film which was

> >     basically the extended Ginsberg and Burroughs dialogue.

> >     It was great.

> >     Also saw "Pull my Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?

> >

> >     SDY

> >     syoung@dsw.com

> >     ______________________________ Reply Separator

> >     _________________________________

> 

> I received a copy of a catalog from the old 1800Kerouac bookstore in CA.  I

> believe it has changed its name to Fog City Books.  You can find it on the

> web to get the phone.  _Pull My Daisy_ was in the catolog for 39.95 plus

> shipping and all.  That was in May and they said they had limited copies.

> I didn't have enough money to pay for it so I didn't.  I don't know if its

> still available.

> 

>                                                 -Jon

 

I just got back from Borders Bookstore here in Indianapolis and I

ordered a copy of "What Happened to Kerouac?" for $69.95 directly from

the video company.  I hear it's a very good flick and it came highly

recommended as opposed to the all-actors "Kerouac."

 

Eric Macy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:29:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

 

Diane & Co.:

 

Before I could vent my utter disgust at the (both mercifully and insultingly)

brief article  by Dennis Cooper in SPIN, I was Beaten to it, the List was

already inflamed with righteously indignant responses.  Howard Park put it

succinctly in its place as the pitiful product of "....just one guy musing

about his poorly formed impressions rather than anything resembling

journalism".  I won't preach to the choir, many List members have already

detailed the infinite distance between this throwaway blurb and the true

extent and significance of WSB's achievements.  Real constructive criticism

based on a thorough knowledge of what is being criticized is one thing, WSB's

life and work are not above that, he spent his life in the arena and lived

long enough to see the deepest extremes of revulsion and admiration in

reaction to his actions and words.  But this kind of clueless criticism is

inexcusable, it would have been better to print nothing, to paraphrase

Timothy Hoffman. Through it all, he remained "100% himself", as Sean Young

pointed out. The phrase "come or go....the dead and the junky don't care",

from NAKED LUNCH, comes to mind.  That is his answer to "I suspect even he

didn't know why he was famous anymore", he NEVER CARED IN THE FIRST PLACE and

quietly progressed on his path, for the benefit of those willing to take the

time and effort to understand his ingenious use (and usurpation) of language

and appreciate his profound humor, imagination and wisdom.  He was

indifferent to the cult hoopla that surrounded him, especially in his later

years.  I could see this myself when I visited him.  All of that will largely

fall away, leaving his works to speak for him and stand the test of time.

 

The shame of such an article is that, in our media-sodden, history-less and

disposable society, it will be the first, and unfortunately in some cases

last, impression that some young readers will have of WSB.  Hopefully,

readers who are introduced to him through this dismissive little piece of

junkfood journalism will not be discouraged, and go further to see for

themselves what he was really all about.

 

"SMASH THE CONTROL IMAGES"

 

Regards,

 

Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:41:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MARK NIGON <Mark_Nigon@CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg -Reply

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Thought someone might find this interesting.  This review comes from a

British mag called The Face.  Don't know the year it was reviewed or if

The Face is still around.

 

Pg. 24  CINEMA

"As literary biographies go, the movie-collage WHAT HAPPENED TO KEROUAC?

(at the ICA cinema, London SW1 form Oct 9) is a very High School

reunion.  But the makers do not shirk their interrogatory

responsibilities or pamper the Beat babe, and what emerges is not just a

paunch-and-all portrait but a cautionary American fable.  Interviewer

(and co-producer, co-director) Lewis MacAdams has squeezed a spectrum of

blab from just about every Head sill extant.  (You can play an I Spy

game of spotting Who's a Casualty of What) Gregory Corso comes across as

an unashamed souse;  Allen Ginsberg still looping the latest loop;

Kerouac's first wife Edie insufferable.  Of all the faces William

Burroughs' is the best preserved; his wits ditto.  Fran Landesman

pre-empts the film autopsy with her analysis - the good depressive

Catholic boy couldn't top himself straight off so instigated a long

"slow suicide" downing the booze, drowning in booze.  MacAdams (and

co-director Richard Lerner) show us the disintegrated, horribly bloated

death's-door Kerouac upfront.  "I got arrested recently; this policeman

said, 'I'm arresting you for decay'."  The inescapable conclusion is

that this most celebrated of modern speed nomads never left home.  Mom,

the Church and Decency flapped around his swollen head like bats.  He

fell into his own auto-obituary definition of the Generation he

launched;  "You end up Beat, Beaten."  Yep, the Elvis Presley of Poetry.

 But in the young face you can see the mythic lure, and in the readings

of his own work even noon-fans might catch a beat of the over reaching

rhythm that fired him for a while."

 

 

-mark

 

mark_nigon@mail.campbell-mithun.com

 

>>> Eric Macy <rodmacy@IQUEST.NET> 09/18/97 04:27pm >>>

 

 

I just got back from Borders Bookstore here in Indianapolis and I

ordered a copy of "What Happened to Kerouac?" for $69.95 directly from

the video company.  I hear it's a very good flick and it came highly

recommended as opposed to the all-actors "Kerouac."

 

Eric Macy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:40:11 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

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At 12:50 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

>At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art theatre.

>>As some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about

>>15-20 minutes edited from the original film.  The most priceless portion

>>of the entire film wasn't shown on PBS.  The scene involved AG chanting

>>and playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show.  AG was totally

>>into his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled

>>AG on the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes

>>interact.

>> 

>> 

>>Denis Alcock

>> 

>Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage.  Is the footage you

>are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh special?

> 

> 

>                                                -Jon

> 

> 

The documentary this was made from must have had some circulation

as a videocassette.  Perhaps someone like Home Film Festival is

renting it for a price.  Their phone number to rent any film for

about $10 a pop is 800-258-3456.  Also, really large multi-faceted

video stores in major cities could have it.  I just called HFF.  The

original name of the film is The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg. Its

82 minutes long, includes the 20 minutes missing from the PBS show, and

can be rented by establishing credit with Home Film Festival. The film

was released in 1993.  I also saw an advertisement for something called

Kaddish in their brochure which could be about Allen's poem.  And I

suspect you can get the Kerouac documentary from these folks too, if

you can remember the name of it.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:40:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

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At 04:56 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

> 

>> of OTR and the Beats.  Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

>> the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

>> the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.

> 

>Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for submission? I

>couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in brown

>paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

> 

> 

Someone has corrected me on this.  It was actually telegraph paper or an

Associated

Press roll of connected sheets.  I think it still exists somewhere.  Of course,

it must have been transcribed to some other medium at some point.  I think

there is a touch of legend in the whole story anyway, though I have no doubt

Kerouac wrote the story out on connected sheets at some point.  I am sure other

people in this group know aspects of this story that I missed.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:32:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re[2]: Kerouac in New Yorker

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>Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for submission? I

>couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in brown

>paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

 

     Capote made this statement, as I have heard, after hearing of Jack's

     method of typing on the teletype roll in a nonstop benny rush.  Most

     of the biographers I have read made a point of saying that Jack did

     take the teletype roll to Bob Giroux and display it in a grand

     flourish....Giroux reportedly replied "I can't work with this" which,

     some have supposed, meant the teletype roll but Jack is said to have

     taken it as a rejection of the work.

 

     As best I can reckon,

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt h.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:44:53 CDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Lundburg, Wes" <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject:      Re: Death Stalking.... (my 3rd attempt!)

 

Listers... pardon me if this has already gone through, but I'm not getting any

acknowledgements....  ---Wes

-----------------------------------------------

 

Hey, Bentz...

Just wanted to express my sympathy.  Seems I go through something like what

you're going through every ten years or so.  First was when my grandfather died-

-he'd been the best friend a troubled surfer kid in San Diego could have through

childhood.  His sudden death from pancreatic cancer devastated me in my third

year of college and had more to do with my dropping out than I seem willing to

admit.  Two weeks later, a close friend I'd known since 9th grade committed

suicide.

 

About 10 or 11 years later, a musical artist I'd felt an affinity with died at

age 42, unexpectedly, leaving a young wife and kids without insurance or

protection.  A month later, I learned that my mentor through grad school, a

wonderful teacher and scholar who took me to dinner to celebrate my successful

defense of my master's thesis, died in her sleep of a brain hemmorage.  The very

next day, I got a call telling me that two close friends from high school had

both died.  One was a guy who had always claimed he'd be dead before he was 35.

 

 

He is.  The other was a girl I'd dated and was for many reasons very special to

me, although I haven't spoken with her in years.  A week later, a guy I worked

with died in a plane crash-- slammed into the side of a mountain while

sightseeing in the mountains of Alaska.  The weight of it all seemed unbearable.

 

 

The weight of it all... it's such an apt image.  The inertia of death is a

greater force than gravity.

 

Such times are sobering.  I know what you feel, and your expression of your

feelings touches me.  We're kindred spirits.

 

Peace, my friend.  Let peace reign supreme in your heart today.

 

---Wes

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:00:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

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At 01:00 PM 9/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Today as I stood in my hometown's major used bookstore, I faced a literary

>feast.  Last night the proprietor called to let me know that he had just

>purchased a fairly large collection of Beat literature.  So today, as the

>store opened, I stood in front of a selection of first edition Kerouac's,

>Burroughs, and Ginsberg (1).  Needless to say, I couldn't afford any of

>the first ed.s.  Ouch!

> 

>Anyhow, I ended up purchasing many first or second printing paperbacks.

>I know that some of you must have experienced the dismay that I felt this

>morning, while glancing at some of the Kerouac covers.  For instance, my

>edition

>of Maggie Cassidy looks like the cover of a Harlequin novel.  Granted, the

>publishers wanted to sell books, and so did Kerouac, but it seems to me

>that the cover alone could have detracted from the serious literary

>contribution he had to make.  In other words, the "hippies" were

>purchasing the books, not the professors.  Perhaps that was how Jack

>wanted it.

> 

>As a disclaimer, I would like to add that I used the term "hippie" in

>reference to a complaint that Jack once made.  Sorry, I can't remember the

>source, but it was something to the effect that all the rich college kids

>were buying (Salinger or Capote's?) hardbacks, while only "hippies" were

>buying his paperbacks.

> 

>Do any of you have any thoughts regarding the cheapening of Kerouac works

>by tawdry sex covers? (I apologize now if this is a thread which has been

>hashed out in the past.)

> 

>Jenn Thompson

> 

> 

This is a subject that interests me.  In the early fifties, the emerging

paperback houses were putting tawdry covers on classic books.  If this

eventually happened to some of the beat titles, it would be interesting

to see what prostituted form they took.  Someone ought to publish a book

of tawdry paperback cover art, by itself.  I have a 1949 copy of Orwell's

1984, with some Sci-Fi futuristic art on the cover that I think is quite

good and quite interesting.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:00:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: La Loca. A  Beat Poetess.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

This is quite a wonderful little narrative.  Tell me who

this La Loca is and what she is doing these days?

 

Mike Rice

 

 

At 07:54 PM 9/18/97 +0200, you wrote:

>        Why I choose Black Men for My Lovers    by La Loca

> 

>        Acid today

>        is trendy entertainment

>        but in 1967

>        Eating it was eucharistic

>                and made us fully visionary

> 

>        My girlfriend and I used to get cranked up

>                and we'd land in

>                The Haight

>                and oh yeah

>                The Black Guys Knew Who We Were

>                But the white boys were stupid

> 

>        I started out in San Fernando

>                My unmarried mother did not abort me

>                because Tijuana was unaffordable

>                They stuffed me in a crib of invisibility

>                I was bottle-fed germicides and aspirin

>                My nannies were cathode tubes

>                I reached adolescence, anyway

>                Thanks to Bandini and sprinklers

> 

>        In 1967 I stepped through a windowpane

>                and I got real

>                I saw Mother Earth and Big Brother

>                and

>                I clipped my roots which chocked in the

>                        concrete

>                        of Sunset Boulevard

>                to go with my girlfriend

>                from Berkeley to San Francisco

>                hitchhiking

>                and we discovered

>                that Spades were groovy

>                and

>                White boys were mass-produced and

>                watered their lawns

>                        artificially with long green hoses in

>                        West L.A.

> 

>        There I was, in Avalon Ballroom

>                in vintage pink satin, buckskin and

>                        patchouli

>                        pioneering the sexual

>                        revolution

>        I used to be the satyr's moll, half-woman

>        and in pink satin hung

>                loose about me

>                like an intention

>        I ate lysergic for breakfast, lunch and

>                        dinner

>                I was a dead-end in the off-limits of

>                        The Establishment

>                        and morality was open to interpretation

> 

>        In my neighborhood, if you fucked around, you were a whore

> 

>        But I was an emigree, now

>                I watched the planeloads of white boys fly

>                        up from Hamilton High

>                They were the vanguard

>                        of the Revolution

>                They stepped off the plane

>                        in threadbare work shirts

>                        with rolled-up sleeves

>                        and a Shell Oil, a Bankamericar,

>                        a mastercharge in their back pocket

>                        with their father's name on it

>                Planeloads of Revolutionaries

>                For matins, they quoted Marcuse and Huey Newton

>                For vespers, they instructed young girls from

>                        San Fernando to

>                        Fuck Everybody

>                To not comply, was fascist

>        I watched the planeloads of white boys

>                fly up from Hamilton High

>        All the boys from my high school were shipped to

>                Vietnam

>        And I was in Berkeley, screwing little white boys

>                who were remonstrating for peace

>                In bed, the pusillanimous hands of war protestors

>                        taught me Marxist philosophy:

>                Our neighborhoods are a life sentence

>                This was their balling stage and they

>                        were politicians

>                I was an apparition with orifices

>                I knew they were insurance salesmen in their

>                        hearts

>                And they would all die of attacks

>                I went down on them anyway, because I had

>                        consciousness

>                Verified by my intake of acid

>                I was no peasant!

>                I went down on little white boys and

>                they filled my head with

>                        Communism

>                They informed me that poor people didn't have

>                        money and were oppressed

>                Some people were Black and Chicano

>                Some women even had illegitimate children

>                Meanwhile, my thighs were bloodthirsty

>                        whelps

>                and could never get enough of anything

>        and those little communists were stingy

>        I was seventeen

>                and wanted to see the world

>                My flowering was chemical

>                I cut my teeth on promiscuity and medicine

>                I stepped through more windowpanes

>                        and it really got oracular

>        In 1968

>        One night

>        The shaman laid some holy shit on me and wow

>        I knew

>        in 1985

>                The world would still be white, germicidially

>                        white

>                That the ethos of affluence

>                was an indelible

>                white boy trait

>                like blue eyes

>                That Volkswagons would be traded in for

>                        Ferraris

>                        and would be driven with the same

>                        snotty pluck that sniveled around

>                        the doors of Fillmore, looking cool

>        I knew those guys, I knew them when they had posters of

>                Che Guevara over their bed

>                They all had poster of Che Guevara over

>                        their bed

>                And I looked into Che's black eyes all

>                        night while I lay in those beds,

>                        ignored

>        Now these guys have names on doors on the 18th floor of

>                towers in Encino

>                They have ex-wives and dope connections.

>        Even my girlfriend married a condo owner in Van Nuys.

> 

>        In proper white Marxist theoretician nomenclature, I was

>                a tramp.

>        The rich girls were called "liberated."

> 

>        I was a female for San Fernando

>                and the San Francisco Black Men and I

>                had a lot in common

>                Eyes, for example

>                dilated

>                with the opacity of "fuck you"

>                I saw them and they saw me

>                We didn't need an ophthalmologist to get it on

>                We laid each other on a foundation of

>                        visibility

>                and our fuck

>                was no hypothesis

> 

>        Now that I was worldly

>                I wanted to correct

>                the nervous blue eyes who flew up from

>                Brentwood

>        to see Hendrix

>        but

>        when I stared into them

>        They always lost focus

>        and got lighter and lighter

>        and

>        No wonder Malcolm called them Devils.

> 

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:03:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <vmooney@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Pull My Daisy

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----------

> From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

> 

> Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 12:15 PM

>      Also saw "Pull my Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?

> 

Write to Beat Books, PO Box 5813, Berkeley, CA 94705.  I got a copy from

him a year or so ago.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:22:48 -0500

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From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bentz

In-Reply-To:  <9708188746.AA874628626@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>

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I can picture the columbia scene you find yourself in Bentz. I lived there

for a while. Loved and married an incredibly talented lyric

soprano/pianist. We met at Boston University. Me fresh from the Korean War,

she protected, every need met, lovely, but part of an elite white

population, maids, all of that. allof that but good, decent people. Future

mother in law, a gentle dear person, thought I needed a suit. I wouldn't

spend money on it. Future wife prevailed, "Let mom buy you a simple suit."

I relented. The next morning the racks to choose from were in the living

room. Hard to believe how some live.

 

It was too much. But, we married. It didn't last. the differences were too

great.

But during that period, the person that seemed to spend time in my mind,

was that tiny little women who came out of the  Black back-street Columbia

and told them all there wasn't anything she couldn't deal with and survive.

She was tough, talented, a joy to read and to listen too. Eartha Kitt.

Neither Presidents or whitey could beat her. She was out front, determined

to survive.

 

Every time I read a post from you, from Columbia, wonderful memories rise

up to warm my soul--sometimes even scortch it. A sumertime Columbia sun had

a way of doing that. Particularly when wandered that scrub pine sand hill

country side painting and sketching. The GI Bill didn't pay a Korean vet

much, but in hindsight I should have followed a couple of comrades to

Mexico where the living was cheap and the art scene stimulating.

 

A few months ago my youngest daughter, a cellist, went to an Eartha Kitt

concert in Seattle and sought her out backstage--a skill some musicians

have. Charity told her that she had grown up listening to stories about

Eartha Kitt, and thanked her for her politics, her music, her soul and her

gonads. They talked. EK was touched and gracious. My daughter awed--just as

I always am by sentiment and courage.

 

I wonder about you Bentz. Your poetry says so much for you. Some of it

makes me think: This guy is a lawyer? In Columbia, S.C.?  It can't be easy

pal. For whatever it means to you, I'm impressed. I only know three lawyers

with the cods to send that post. One of them, a tough sentimental, super

sensitve tiger, Bill Kunstler, is gone. I sent your post to one of the

others and he said, "Don't worry. It's those who can't spell it out that

end up fucked up. He's OK."

 

I hope you are.

 

Peace and love,

 

j grant

 

 

Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                FREE

                   at

                     BookZen

                   http://www.bookzen.com

        375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:49:20 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Kerouac in New Yorker

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> MATT HANNAN wrote:

> 

>      Capote made this statement, as I have heard, after hearing of

> Jack's

>      method of typing on the teletype roll in a nonstop benny rush.

> Most

>      of the biographers I have read made a point of saying that Jack

> did

>      take the teletype roll to Bob Giroux and display it in a grand

>      flourish....Giroux reportedly replied "I can't work with this"

> which,

>      some have supposed, meant the teletype roll but Jack is said to

> have

>      taken it as a rejection of the work.

 

 

This version of the story is from Joyce Johnson in Minor Characters:

 

"I'd heard a lot about Mr. Giroux even before I came to Farrar, Straus.

He was the editor who had discovered Jack, published The Town and the

City at Harcourt Brace, and even convinced him to revise and cut it.  He

was someone Jack always spoke about with admiration.  'A great French

gentleman,' Jack said, who ate only in the best restaurants.  Once when

Jack was a little drunk, he described Giroux cryptically as 'a great

white panda.'  The two of them had a terrible misunderstanding that went

back six years, to the day Jack finished On the Road.  After typing

nonstop for two weeks in a great burst of spontaneous energy onto the the

huge scroll of teletype paper Lucien had given him, Jack had rolled it

all up, stuck it under his arm, and had taken it immediately to Giroux's

office.  There, he'd triumphantly unfurled the whole thing.  'Here's your

novel!' But Giroux had evidently not responded in the proper joyous

spirit.  Staring in astonishment and dismay at the river of words

flooding his office, he'd wondered aloud how it would ever be possible to

rework it.  Affronted, Jack had shouted that not one word would ever be

changed.  He rolled his manscript up, took it away and never returned.

        Although I did reluctantly see Giroux's side, my

twenty-one-year-old sympathies were with Jack.  The exuberant, outragous

Jack whom I'd only seen traces of now and then.  Mad Jack, impossible

Jack.  The dark young man rushing out with his manuscript, rage in his

blue eyes, walking dazed on the midtown sidewalks where ordinary people

were going about their business.  Jack Kerouac was his own worst enemy,

anyone reasonable would have said.  He should have retyped the thing

properly, double-spaced on fine white bond, then taken it to his editor,

having made an appointment in advance, having taken into account

editorial weariness and bleariness of eye, the tupor that comes after

lunch in the offices of publishers...

        He paid for the mistaken afternoon with six years of rejection

from editors much less imaginative than Giroux, and in his hurt pride

counted Giroux among those others who had rejected On the Road.  But by

1957, the quarrel had become enfolded in the benevolence of the past--a

mock-heroic encounter between the artist/savage and the gentleman.  When

I wrote Jack about my new job, and mentioned meeting his former editor,

he sent friendly messages to Giroux in the letter he wrote back to me,

just as if the two of them had never been out of touch."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:50:13 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kaddish and Life&Times

 

fantastic special last night.  what a lion-heart... and mind.  i was

particularly struck by how even Buckley couldn't resist the force of deep,

honest, sincere unconditional love for the universe

 

will the world be granted another such soul to took his place and keep us

going?

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:53:13 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

 

that's correct, Jon, would be impossible to type on toilet paper anyway and

certainly would have thwarted the whole notion of being able to type

continuously without changing the paper - which was the whole point in the

first place.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:00:19 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

 

the OTR role is still around, was part of the Beat Exhibition here last year,

unless i'm grievously mistaken.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:25:20 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr." <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Attn:  Jo Grant

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jo,

 

        You're the fellow who has the sig file that says something to the effect

of "Be on the lookout for stolen Kerouac items," correct?  Could you e-mail

the list, or me privately, with a list of the items that were stolen?

 

Best regards,

 

Bruce

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:50:05 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

MIME-Version: 1.0

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The Subterraneans cover (one of my

> >      favorites) looks like it should, a dime store novel--a la Junkie and

> >      Queer (excellent "trashy" covers as well--and befitting it's theme.

> >      Kitsch, trash, whatever you call, it was "sensational" then and it's

> >      nostalgic now.

> 

I don't remember who was complaining about the old covers hurting the

"seriousness" of Jack's books.  I love them.  Who needs serious anyway?

 

A local Palo Alto company is doing a series of postcard with "pulp"

covers which are wonderful--including "Junky".  The Subterr. cover fits

right in.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:52:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Attn:  Jo Grant

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:25 PM 9/18/97 -0000, you wrote:

>Jo,

> 

>        You're the fellow who has the sig file that says something to the

effect

>of "Be on the lookout for stolen Kerouac items," correct?  Could you e-mail

>the list, or me privately, with a list of the items that were stolen?

> 

>Best regards,

> 

>Bruce

> 

Me as well?

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:20:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

 

In a message dated 97-09-16 21:32:18 EDT, you write:

 

<<  gotta say, I was disappointed with the tone of the SPIN article >>

 

 

a second thought...gotta say that WSB always appealed to me as the black

sheep---the one designed for you to hate---perhaps he accomplished this too

well........

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:24:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: something to spin...

 

In a message dated 97-09-17 12:50:06 EDT, you write:

 

<< Dennis owes

      a lot to Burroughs. Cooper doesn't even have his facts

      together.

      Burroughs deserves better. >>

 

 

 

I'm really disillusioned by all this,,,,,,,give it to dc where he likes it

most,    the stones said star f******, star f******, star f******, that's all

you get, fifteen minutes......

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:25:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: A Proletarian Writer.

 

In a message dated 97-09-18 13:29:18 EDT, you write:

 

<<     Only Charles Bukowski could do it.

         Workers!        Save The Workers >>

 

 

Rinaldo:  Comprende Harry Crews?

 

   Not beat??????

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:29:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Coltrane Talking

 

Bruce:

 

Come to think of it, I don't recall Coltrane talking in any of the

documentaries, and I've seen all of them that I know of.  There is an audio

interview at the end of disc 1 & the beginning of disc 2 on the import cd set

entitled MILES DAVIS & JOHN COLTRANE- LIVE IN STOCKHOLM 1960.  The sound

quality is excellent.  The concert recording itself is absolutely great, one

of my very favorites where 2 of the all-time giants, MD & JC, are both at

their peak.  It contains faster, hard-bop versions of some of the classic

from KIND OF BLUE, including SO WHAT.  It is worth searching for this item, I

obtained it a long time ago but I think it should still be available, at

least by order, from various sources.

 

I concur with the posts sent in reply to your message that recommend WHAT

HAPPENED TO KEROUAC.  It is the best JK video documentary made so far, in my

opinion.  I hope you find both of these items.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:51:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Macy <rodmacy@IQUEST.NET>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Sean Elias wrote:

> 

> In a message dated 97-09-16 21:32:18 EDT, you write:

> 

> <<  gotta say, I was disappointed with the tone of the SPIN article >>

> 

> a second thought...gotta say that WSB always appealed to me as the black

> sheep---the one designed for you to hate---perhaps he accomplished this too

> well........

 

I find this analysis of Burroughs to be very accurate.  I find his

imagery at times revolting and alternately mesmerizing.  This applies to

his personal life as well.  I'm frankly shocked that more derogatory

articles did not appear - around Indianapolis, his death was seen as one

of those "thank God that scumbag is gone.  He's corrupting my children"

kind of deaths.  His obit was in the paper (amazingly!) but all other

media outlets ignored it.  In the end, Burroughs became a master of

evil, dark, disgusting images of himself and others - such a master that

the real man and real stories are lost, as in the SPIN article.  Too bad

I seemingly missed the boat

too . . .

Eric Macy

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:08:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Attn:  Jo Grant

In-Reply-To:  <199709190124.VAA23879@everest.pinn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Jo,

> 

>        You're the fellow who has the sig file that says something to the

>effect

>of "Be on the lookout for stolen Kerouac items," correct?  Could you e-mail

>the list, or me privately, with a list of the items that were stolen?

> 

>Best regards,

> 

>Bruce

 

Bruce,

 

I pulled that sig. The materials are missing from the collection. I had the

list at one time. I check for Gerry Nicosia's E-mail address and because of

a crash last week must reconstruct all my e-mail files. I'll contact Gerry

to see if he still has the list as is able to E-mail it. If he does I'll

get back to you.

 

Much of what was missing is from the collection Gerry placed with the

library after completeing Memory babe.

 

jo

 

Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                FREE

                   at

                     BookZen

                   http://www.bookzen.com

        375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:20:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

 

I loved (yes, loved [no, not like THAT!]) WSB more than any of the other

beats...as a start to this thread (why he was neglected in his death) I can

only think that perhaps it was because this death did not come as a

shock...indeed i was surprised (allbeit aware) that he was not dead years

ago........how could anyone abuse himself so much and survive so long....this

is a tribute to his spirit....AG, on the other hand, led a much simpler/

wholesome(?) life and, as such his death was a great surprise....

 

 

       no excuses

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:36:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kaddish and Life&Times

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19970918161358.00691128@maila.wm.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>At 03:48 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>I saw The Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg  last night on PBS.  It was great.

>>I especially liked hearing Ginsberg read the excerpt from Kaddish.  It gave

>>me new insights into this poem.  Does anyone know where I could get an audio

>>recording of Kaddish?

>> 

>> 

>>Aaron F. Sinkovich

>>sinkovia@mnsfld.edu

>> 

>There is a 4CD box set of Allen reciting his poetry.  It includes Kaddish

>and Howl and many others.  I believe on two of he discs Bob Dylan plays in

>the back.  Though I'm not sure if the Dylan albums with Ginsberg are the

>same as these.  The box set sells for around 50.00 dollars.

>                                                                -Jon

 

The liner notes on this 4CD box are extensive and very interesting. When it

was first released I posted them to help Rhino sell them.

If people are intersted I'll post them again.

 

j grant

 

Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                FREE

                   at

                     BookZen

                   http://www.bookzen.com

        375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 03:41:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: bardo

 

In a message dated 97-09-18 00:48:20 EDT, you write:

 

<< <<  Saturday September 20

  > Bardo is a tibetan buddist tradition.  Approximately 49 days after death.

  >  images and or objects associated with wsb will be burned.

  >>

 

In the fall issue of Tricycle, they have pictures of Ginsberg drawn in the

last few weeks of his life (not very good pictures, just sketches), and an

article on the body after death, and how a buddhist should handle the body.

They say the spirit can leave anytime in the first 24 hours but usually

doesn't leave immediately upon death.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 03:41:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac scroll

 

Regarding what On the Road was typed on, it is said to be tracing paper, each

section was 12 feet long, taped together. (I also heard that it was shelving

paper). I did actually see it during the Whitney Beat show in New York, and

it did look like tracing paper, it is slightly translucent. The first part of

the scroll is messed up, supposedly because a dog chewed on it (I forget

whose dog it was, must be the same one that chewed my homework). It is 120

feet long, single space.

 

Attila Gyenis

 

 

In a message dated 97-09-18 17:41:37 EDT, you write

 

<< >> of OTR and the Beats.  Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

 >> the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

 >> the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.

 >

 >Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for submission? I

 >couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in brown

 >paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

 >

 >

 Someone has corrected me on this.  It was actually telegraph paper or an

 Associated >>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:41:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kaddish and Life&Times

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

jo grant wrote:

> The liner notes on this 4CD box are extensive and very interesting. When it

> was first released I posted them to help Rhino sell them.

> If people are intersted I'll post them again.

> 

 

Jo ,

I would be very interested in them.  I am continually delighted with the

great and varied resources this list has brought to me.

p

> j grant

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:45:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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I live in a dark and evil world, one that literally shows me skulls of

children crushed by egos,  souls sucked out of breasts by greed.  I know

that the light and joy in my personal life and the fascination and

reverence i have for mental and spiritual journeys are somehow bound

tightly to the illuminations of what constitutes shits and johnsons that

i read from wsb.  Some i love and respect quite easily would find

williams broad slash horrifying. I think that William's writing has

opened doors for centuries ahead of us.  His doors were dark ( and lost

and found) but truth gleamed through the cracks.  To justify the crap

articles in spin as anything but 30 cents of nonsense because you didn't

like the "dude" is probably part of the crap that brought the bile up in

the first place.

 

In the deepest sense the beats talk to me about responsibility.

I took a picture of William and Allen once with their arms akimbo.  i

wish that i could of met jack .  In my dreams of meeting jack it always

was before the alcohol killed him.  They had always reminded me of those

three monkeys, but  caught with their hands down.

 

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:04:31 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: bardo

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>In a message dated 97-09-18 00:48:20 EDT, you write:

> 

><< <<  Saturday September 20

>  > Bardo is a tibetan buddist tradition.  Approximately 49 days after death.

>  >  images and or objects associated with wsb will be burned.

>  >>

> 

>In the fall issue of Tricycle, they have pictures of Ginsberg drawn in the

>last few weeks of his life (not very good pictures, just sketches), and an

>article on the body after death, and how a buddhist should handle the body.

>They say the spirit can leave anytime in the first 24 hours but usually

>doesn't leave immediately upon death.

 

Well, I know nothing about this really, but  my  aunt died about a month

(one month to the day actually) before our daughter was born so my wife was

very pregnant at the time of the funeral.  I remember her friend Irene just

rolled her eyes back in disbelief and astonishment that my wife was going

to go to the funeral.  Pregnant woman just plain and simply aren't supposed

to go to funerals.  I assume it has something to do with the ghost (or

spirit) still hanging around.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:51:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:49 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>> MATT HANNAN wrote:

>> 

>>      Capote made this statement, as I have heard, after hearing of

>> Jack's

>>      method of typing on the teletype roll in a nonstop benny rush.

>> Most

>>      of the biographers I have read made a point of saying that Jack

>> did

>>      take the teletype roll to Bob Giroux and display it in a grand

>>      flourish....Giroux reportedly replied "I can't work with this"

>> which,

>>      some have supposed, meant the teletype roll but Jack is said to

>> have

>>      taken it as a rejection of the work.

> 

> 

>This version of the story is from Joyce Johnson in Minor Characters:

> 

>"I'd heard a lot about Mr. Giroux even before I came to Farrar, Straus.

>He was the editor who had discovered Jack, published The Town and the

>City at Harcourt Brace, and even convinced him to revise and cut it.  He

>was someone Jack always spoke about with admiration.  'A great French

>gentleman,' Jack said, who ate only in the best restaurants.  Once when

>Jack was a little drunk, he described Giroux cryptically as 'a great

>white panda.'  The two of them had a terrible misunderstanding that went

>back six years, to the day Jack finished On the Road.  After typing

>nonstop for two weeks in a great burst of spontaneous energy onto the the

>huge scroll of teletype paper Lucien had given him, Jack had rolled it

>all up, stuck it under his arm, and had taken it immediately to Giroux's

>office.  There, he'd triumphantly unfurled the whole thing.  'Here's your

>novel!' But Giroux had evidently not responded in the proper joyous

>spirit.  Staring in astonishment and dismay at the river of words

>flooding his office, he'd wondered aloud how it would ever be possible to

>rework it.  Affronted, Jack had shouted that not one word would ever be

>changed.  He rolled his manscript up, took it away and never returned.

>        Although I did reluctantly see Giroux's side, my

>twenty-one-year-old sympathies were with Jack.  The exuberant, outragous

>Jack whom I'd only seen traces of now and then.  Mad Jack, impossible

>Jack.  The dark young man rushing out with his manuscript, rage in his

>blue eyes, walking dazed on the midtown sidewalks where ordinary people

>were going about their business.  Jack Kerouac was his own worst enemy,

>anyone reasonable would have said.  He should have retyped the thing

>properly, double-spaced on fine white bond, then taken it to his editor,

>having made an appointment in advance, having taken into account

>editorial weariness and bleariness of eye, the tupor that comes after

>lunch in the offices of publishers...

>        He paid for the mistaken afternoon with six years of rejection

>from editors much less imaginative than Giroux, and in his hurt pride

>counted Giroux among those others who had rejected On the Road.  But by

>1957, the quarrel had become enfolded in the benevolence of the past--a

>mock-heroic encounter between the artist/savage and the gentleman.  When

>I wrote Jack about my new job, and mentioned meeting his former editor,

>he sent friendly messages to Giroux in the letter he wrote back to me,

>just as if the two of them had never been out of touch."

> 

> 

I've forgotten a lot of this.  Was there a long period between the "typescript"

Giroux turned down, and acceptance by another publisher?  What was the time

period between the teletype incident in Giroux's office and actual publication?

Was it Viking that first published OTR?

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:57:56 +0530

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      thanks for birthday notes and ideas for Boulder tomorrow

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

everyone who sent me notes this week i really appreciate it.  wonderful

to just send out an inquiry and get so much assistance.  Looking forward

to Boulder Saturday all the haunts and the Blues Fest.  Be back Tuesday.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:01:40 CDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Lundburg, Wes" <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject:      Re: Death Stalking... (My 3rd Attempt)

 

Bentz wrote:

 

>Wes:

> 

>I am trying to let peace into my soul.  I figure if I can find peace of

>mind right now, it will never be as bad again.  I appreciate you taking

>the time to respond. It means a lot.  I wonder how you made it through

>these changes.  I forgot to mention that my good friend and best client

>had a heart attack on Saturday.

> 

> 

 

Got through it exactly as you are getting through it now... and you will get

through it.  And you'll somehow be more human on the other side.  That's one of

the things I love about JK and the other beats.  They knew that and expressed

it.  It's why I think you're beat, Bentz.  Hang in there.

 

Shalom,

---Wes

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:45:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

In-Reply-To:  <970916190955_1123414625@emout19.mail.aol.com>

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I'm going to weigh in on the SPIN discussion by addressing some of the

specific misinformation contained in the article. Sorry for the length,

but I dealt with a couple of his accusations in some detail.

 

> SPIN magazine, October 1997, p. 76

> The Priest, They Called Him:

> William S. Burroughs, 1914-1997

 

[...]

 

>  Like Burroughs, Ginsberg was a writer well past his prime and a

> spotlight addict inclined to interlope on passing youth-culture

> movements in order to extend his legend.

 

The last thing Burroughs could be described as was a self-promoter, or

spotlight addict. Any "youth-culture movement" Burroughs ever became

associated with (in the loosest sense of the term) was not due to any

"interloping" on his part, but to the youths in question seeking him out.

 

> On the other hand, the 83-year-old Burroughs, who died of heart failure

> August 2, was an active relic who had exploited the mystique around his

> early work for so long that I suspect even he didn't know why he was

> famous anymore.

 

As others have pointed out, Burroughs did not care whether or not he was

famous. Apparently there is nothing worse in this media-saturated society

than to be famous and not know why.

 

>  While he continued to write, he was less an artist than a retiree

> who dabbled in his former craft.

 

This is where the article gets fun. Any disparaging remarks these obit

writers lobby against Burroughs' life are always delightfully illuminated

as soon as they turn their attention to his work. Apparently the Red Night

trilogy isn't worth the paper it's written on.

 

> Don't get me wrong: Burroughs was a profoundly important countercultural

> figure.  Before heroin addiction stunted his talent, he wrote a handful

> of brilliant, groundbreaking novels, including Naked Lunch (1959) and

> The Wild Boys (1969).

 

While I do believe The Wild Boys is brilliant, and Naked Lunch less so,

I'd like to know exactly what Mr. Cooper means by "before heroin addiction

stunted his talent". That statement is patently absurd. Heroin addiction

preceeds Naked Lunch, and was extremely important in the development of

the controlling metaphor (of Control) throughout the book. Naked Lunch was

written after coming out the other side. If he hadn't been a junky, he

wouldn't have broke any ground. According to what Mr. Cooper claims,

Burroughs was clean as a whistle when writing Naked Lunch and The Wild

Boys, but then became a heroin addict to the detriment of his writing. I

would like to read the biography he used as his source for this

assessment.

 

>  He perfected (but did not invent) the cut-up technique, one of

> the touchstones of postmodernism and an influence on innumerable

> writers, artists, directors, and musicians.

 

Please note Mr. Cooper's acknowledgement of Burroughs' contribution to

postmodernism.

 

> He popularized the idea of experimental

> fiction, if more by dint of his persona than his craft.

 

I fail to see how his persona had more of a literary influence than his

writing. This statement is also laughable.

 

>  Along with Jea Genet, John Rechy, and Ginsberg, he helped make

> homosexuality seem cool and highbrow, providing gay liberation with a

> delicious edge.

 

Yes, homosexuality does appear to be wonderfully appealing in Burroughs,

and Genet. Nothing like the complete detachment in Burroughs, and the

glorified degradation in Genet (but who doesn't consider picking the lice

from one's lover romantic? (The Thief's Journal)). Agenda pushing queer

theorists and writers today who are more interested in cultural and

political motives than art dismiss and ignore the early badboys. For an

interesting article on the current attitudes of many queer writers

and theorists towards Burroughs, Genet, Rechy, et al, see Bruce

Benderson's illuminating article at

http://www.altx.com/interzones/benderson/gay.html

 

>  In his day, Burroughs was arguably the most radical novelist that

> America had ever produced.

 

Hmm, I can't think of any writers of fiction from the late 50's and early

60's that I could describe as more radical than Burroughs, can anyone

else? But our Mr. Cooper must qualify anything that might smack of

encomium with "arguably".

 

> But the rest of the Burroughs mystique -- the gun toting, the conspiracy

> rantings, the heroin cheerleading -- was pure showbiz.

 

Yes, all those heroin cheers Burroughs raised up:

 

"Gimme a J! Gimme a U! Gimme an N! Gimme a K! What's that spell? JUNK!"

 

Burroughs never once promoted the use of heroin. Exactly where did this

Cooper fellow find this apparently widespread, but mysteriously apocryphal

cheerleading? And yes, of course Burroughs' interest in guns, and the

conspiracy theories were merely for the reporters.

 

>  And in allowing this indiscriminate

> dispersal of his image, Burroughs the complex artist became Burroughs

> the simplistic icon.

 

Only for people who only know him by his media image and haven't read his

work. Dare I include Dennis Cooper amongst this distinguished group? I

believe I shall.

 

>  It's a well-known secret that, beginning with his 1981 "comeback"

> novel, Cities of the Red Night, Burroughs's prose was a product of

> partial ghostwriting, and that his involvement in his books steadily

> diminished.  Perhaps this is not a bad thing in and of itself;

> everybody's got to pay the rent somehow.

 

This is the most interesting of the accusations, and rather than

peremptorily dismissing it, as Patricia did, I believe it merits some

attention.

 

I think what Cooper refers to as a well-kept secret is the editing and

assembling of Burroughs' notes and fragments into the books we know as

Cities of the Red Night, The Place of Dead Roads, and The Western Lands.

In Cities, Burroughs thanks James Grauerholz for "Editing the book into

present time" (paraphrasing, please forgive). How was this process any

different than the random assemblage of Naked Lunch-- that

"groundbreaking" "brilliant" book-- from the scraps of paper lying about

on the ground? Many people were involved in the gathering and ordering of

the passages in the trilogy (David Ohle told me in a conversation that he

typed a lot of The Western Lands) although how this detracts from its

impact as a work of art escapes me.

 

While Cooper regards the cutup as a cornerstone of postmodernist practice,

he fails to recognize Burroughs' constant involvement in another

cornerstone of post-modernism: collaboration. Any knowledge, or assessment

of Burroughs' art requires a knowledge of the work and influence of Brion

Gysin, Ian Sommerville, Antony Balch, James Grauerholz, and a slew of

others. The demand that an artist be entirely autonomous in the creation

of a work of art, and the subsequent devaulation of any work produced in

collaboration, is grounded in a Romantic concept of the singular visionary

artist that Burroughs always found limiting and useless. It's not as if

Burroughs ever hid the involvement of others. Acknowledgements appear at

the beginning of many books, from The Ticket that Exploded through to My

Education, including each of the three Red Night books. If Cooper is as

naive as to believe that the writing itself was produced by anyone but

Burroughs, then he cannot come close to appreciating Burroughs'

achievements as a stylist. His writing is immediately and unmistakably

recognizable.

 

Cooper should also note that the cut-up itself is an implicit

collaboration with the many authors whose words Burroughs appropriates.

 

"To speak is to lie -- To collaborate is to live."

                        (The Ticket That Exploded)

 

>  But the result is that his death feels abstract, only coldly

> fascinating.  The Burroughs whom most of us know and love is an echo,

> which, thanks to the miracles of sampling, will continue unimpeded as

> long as there are young rebels in need of a transgressive figurehead.

 

Apparently all his books will be burned and never read. The only legacy

Burroughs will have for Cooper is in the samplings, which also

coincidentally seem to be Cooper's only experience of Burroughs.

 

I think we should all hope that a door dog finds his way to Dennis

Cooper's door sometime soon.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:38:19 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac scroll

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 19 Sep 1997 03:41:31 -0400 from <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

 

It was Lucien Carr's dog and the manuscript is on deposit at the Berg collectio

n.  Frankly, I've often wondered if there wasn't more than one roll manuscript

since it has been variously described as having been typed on teletype paper an

d chinese rice paper.  My memory isn't what it used to be but I seem to rememb

er some discussion in Tim Hunt's book.  Perhaps I'll look at it again when I ha

ve a few moments.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:22:43 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Kerouac in New Yorker

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> Mike Rice wrote:

 

> I've forgotten a lot of this.  Was there a long period between the

> "typescript"

> Giroux turned down, and acceptance by another publisher?  What was the

> time

> period between the teletype incident in Giroux's office and actual

> publication?

> Was it Viking that first published OTR?

 

According to the Kerouac timeline in Ann Charters introduction in The

Portable Kerouac, On the Road was written in 1951 and published by Viking

in 1957, which correlates with the 6-year time period Joyce Johnson was

writing about in Minor Characters.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:07:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

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Neil Hennessy wrote:

> {quoting spin's article}

> >  It's a well-known secret that, beginning with his 1981 "comeback"

> > novel, Cities of the Red Night, Burroughs's prose was a product of

> > partial ghostwriting, and that his involvement in his books steadily

> > diminished.  Perhaps this is not a bad thing in and of itself;

> > everybody's got to pay the rent somehow.

> 

> This is the most interesting of the accusations, and rather than

> peremptorily dismissing it, as Patricia did, I believe it merits some

> attention.

> 

> I think what Cooper refers to as a well-kept secret is the editing and

> assembling of Burroughs' notes and fragments into the books we know as

> Cities of the Red Night, The Place of Dead Roads, and The Western Lands.

> In Cities, Burroughs thanks James Grauerholz for "Editing the book into

> present time" (paraphrasing, please forgive). How was this process any

> different than the random assemblage of Naked Lunch-- that

> "groundbreaking" "brilliant" book-- from the scraps of paper lying about

> on the ground? Many people were involved in the gathering and ordering of

> the passages in the trilogy (David Ohle told me in a conversation that he

> typed a lot of The Western Lands) although how this detracts from its

> impact as a work of art escapes me.

> ...

> Neil

 

Well done Neil.. I was so sickened by this crap but your response adds

to our understanding of william's contributions and got down to

specifics.

I have often felt that while William and I were dear friends, that I was

a provincial friend, so many of his friends were mental athelets and i

just cooked and ran about the countryside  with him.  I had never

thought it possible that any influence ever went any direction than

from  him to me, pushing me to be broader and deeper than my Kansas

roots.  His lack of prejudice soemtimes would bring me up fast and my

chagrin would blush scarlet.  Often, because I am gauche, he would

extradite a situation with a variety of skills. When william bought his

house in east lawrence, William and I often would take treks to the

country, fishing, walks, shooting.  My professions are many but the

consistant activity in my life is I wreck buildings and sell the loot. I

owned 6 acres along the kaw river in Topeka that the wrecking company

operated as a demolition landfill, we had an old man who lived on the

property in an incredibly clever remodeled rail road car.  The land is

on a bend of the river, populated with wild turkeys, kpot, beavers,

lush, overgrown, a fishing dock etc.  William and I went there a couple

of times and he treked all over the place. When I recieved Western

Lands, opened the book and begun to read, there was our river spot.

        William was a natural man with a passionate nature.  He took from

everyone who was near him, took, in the sense  he was an incredibly open

man  if he cared for you.  I certainly agree that James and David were

instrumental in the manuscripts, just as you described, that was very

well put.  But when i read western lands or any of the works that he

wrote during the time i knew him you would hear echos of stories and

subjects that he had discussed, sometimes to death, his voice and words

were uniquely his.  james G. is especially to be admired as he who

managed so many of the details in Williams life.  James could drive me a

little crazy but i never once got ANY impression that the managing was

ever anything but to help william "do his job".  When william signed a

book, and i said sorry to bother you, he would say, just part of the

job.  He took his job seriously.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:40:15 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.95.970918165150.24661D-100000@devel.nacs.net>

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On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

 

> On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

> 

> > of OTR and the Beats.  Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

> > the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

> > the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.

> 

> Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for submission? I

> couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in brown

> paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

 

Read "Kerouac" by Charters.  She tells all about it.  Cool pictures

too...although having flipped thru the web looking for info on him, it

seems she isn't thought of very highly among fans.

 

Jorgiana>

 

* You can always tell a Texan, but not much.*

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:42:08 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

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patricia and neil:

thank  you both for your compassionate and informed posts.  like you,

patricia, i have been sickened by the recent rash of ill-tempered and

ill-informed postings but lacked the words of neil or the compassionate

experience of friendship with wsb of you, patricia. it is a telling note that

a man so open to the world and so free of prejudice gets slammed not just by

spin, but by list members. wake up and smell the coffee, boys, you are on the

beat list. and so i go down unbeaten paths of my small adventures of the day.

peace

mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Neil Hennessy wrote:

> > {quoting spin's article}

> > >  It's a well-known secret that, beginning with his 1981 "comeback"

> > > novel, Cities of the Red Night, Burroughs's prose was a product of

> > > partial ghostwriting, and that his involvement in his books steadily

> > > diminished.  Perhaps this is not a bad thing in and of itself;

> > > everybody's got to pay the rent somehow.

> >

> > This is the most interesting of the accusations, and rather than

> > peremptorily dismissing it, as Patricia did, I believe it merits some

> > attention.

> >

> > I think what Cooper refers to as a well-kept secret is the editing and

> > assembling of Burroughs' notes and fragments into the books we know as

> > Cities of the Red Night, The Place of Dead Roads, and The Western Lands.

> > In Cities, Burroughs thanks James Grauerholz for "Editing the book into

> > present time" (paraphrasing, please forgive). How was this process any

> > different than the random assemblage of Naked Lunch-- that

> > "groundbreaking" "brilliant" book-- from the scraps of paper lying about

> > on the ground? Many people were involved in the gathering and ordering of

> > the passages in the trilogy (David Ohle told me in a conversation that he

> > typed a lot of The Western Lands) although how this detracts from its

> > impact as a work of art escapes me.

> > ...

> > Neil

> 

> Well done Neil.. I was so sickened by this crap but your response adds

> to our understanding of william's contributions and got down to

> specifics.

> I have often felt that while William and I were dear friends, that I was

> a provincial friend, so many of his friends were mental athelets and i

> just cooked and ran about the countryside  with him.  I had never

> thought it possible that any influence ever went any direction than

> from  him to me, pushing me to be broader and deeper than my Kansas

> roots.  His lack of prejudice soemtimes would bring me up fast and my

> chagrin would blush scarlet.  Often, because I am gauche, he would

> extradite a situation with a variety of skills. When william bought his

> house in east lawrence, William and I often would take treks to the

> country, fishing, walks, shooting.  My professions are many but the

> consistant activity in my life is I wreck buildings and sell the loot. I

> owned 6 acres along the kaw river in Topeka that the wrecking company

> operated as a demolition landfill, we had an old man who lived on the

> property in an incredibly clever remodeled rail road car.  The land is

> on a bend of the river, populated with wild turkeys, kpot, beavers,

> lush, overgrown, a fishing dock etc.  William and I went there a couple

> of times and he treked all over the place. When I recieved Western

> Lands, opened the book and begun to read, there was our river spot.

>         William was a natural man with a passionate nature.  He took from

> everyone who was near him, took, in the sense  he was an incredibly open

> man  if he cared for you.  I certainly agree that James and David were

> instrumental in the manuscripts, just as you described, that was very

> well put.  But when i read western lands or any of the works that he

> wrote during the time i knew him you would hear echos of stories and

> subjects that he had discussed, sometimes to death, his voice and words

> were uniquely his.  james G. is especially to be admired as he who

> managed so many of the details in Williams life.  James could drive me a

> little crazy but i never once got ANY impression that the managing was

> ever anything but to help william "do his job".  When william signed a

> book, and i said sorry to bother you, he would say, just part of the

> job.  He took his job seriously.

> p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:43:03 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

In-Reply-To:  <34219CC8.3A33@iquest.net>

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On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Eric Macy wrote:

 

> Jonathan Pickle wrote:

> >

> > At 11:15 AM 9/18/97 -0600, you wrote:

> > >     The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg:

> > >

> > >     Produced and Directed by Jerry Aronson

> > >

> > >     you can purchase a copy from First Run Features by calling

> > >     1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.

> > >     This is the one that was shown in theaters, I have rented it

> > >     from my local art theatre/video place.

> > >     It does have the Buckley footage.

> > >     Note:

> > >     When I was at the Ginsberg tribute at Naropa in '94

> > >     Jerry Aronson showed out-takes from the film which was

> > >     basically the extended Ginsberg and Burroughs dialogue.

> > >     It was great.

> > >     Also saw "Pull my Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?

> > >

> > >     SDY

> > >     syoung@dsw.com

> > >     ______________________________ Reply Separator

> > >     _________________________________

> >

> > I received a copy of a catalog from the old 1800Kerouac bookstore in CA.  I

> > believe it has changed its name to Fog City Books.  You can find it on the

> > web to get the phone.  _Pull My Daisy_ was in the catolog for 39.95 plus

> > shipping and all.  That was in May and they said they had limited copies.

> > I didn't have enough money to pay for it so I didn't.  I don't know if its

> > still available.

> >

> >                                                 -Jon

> 

> I just got back from Borders Bookstore here in Indianapolis and I

> ordered a copy of "What Happened to Kerouac?" for $69.95 directly from

> the video company.  I hear it's a very good flick and it came highly

> recommended as opposed to the all-actors "Kerouac."

> 

> Eric Macy

 

 

Have any of you seen "The last time I committed suicide"?  Movie about

Neal Cassidy.  Very interesting, however (here's the warning), Keanu

Reeves plays JK.  Ahhh, the horror.  Some of you may be able to get

around it but everytime he was onscreen I kept thinking "Oh no, it's Bill

and Ted".  BEAUTIFUL photography though and a pretty hoppin' soundtrack.

 

Maybe on a slow Sat night.  Blockbuster has it.

 

Jorgiana>

 

* You can always tell a Texan, but not much.*

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:46:11 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      eric and sean

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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i sure hope that when i die i'll be obscure enough not to be splattered by such

hatred, prejudice, and ignorance. are those the fingers  that you hug yr mothers

with?

ye gads and little fishes.

mc

 

Eric Macy wrote:

 

> Sean Elias wrote:

> >

> > In a message dated 97-09-16 21:32:18 EDT, you write:

> >

> > <<  gotta say, I was disappointed with the tone of the SPIN article >>

> >

> > a second thought...gotta say that WSB always appealed to me as the black

> > sheep---the one designed for you to hate---perhaps he accomplished this too

> > well........

> 

> I find this analysis of Burroughs to be very accurate.  I find his

> imagery at times revolting and alternately mesmerizing.  This applies to

> his personal life as well.  I'm frankly shocked that more derogatory

> articles did not appear - around Indianapolis, his death was seen as one

> of those "thank God that scumbag is gone.  He's corrupting my children"

> kind of deaths.  His obit was in the paper (amazingly!) but all other

> media outlets ignored it.  In the end, Burroughs became a master of

> evil, dark, disgusting images of himself and others - such a master that

> the real man and real stories are lost, as in the SPIN article.  Too bad

> I seemingly missed the boat

> too . . .

> Eric Macy

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:37:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

Subject:      Re: Death Stalking... (My 3rd Attempt)

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"The best way out is always through." --Robert Frost Hi, I'm new to the

list. I think this is really a good thing on the web. Look forward to all

the discussions.

 

----------

> From: Lundburg, Wes <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: Death Stalking... (My 3rd Attempt)

> Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 7:01 AM

> 

> Bentz wrote:

> 

> >Wes:

> >

> >I am trying to let peace into my soul.  I figure if I can find peace of

> >mind right now, it will never be as bad again.  I appreciate you taking

> >the time to respond. It means a lot.  I wonder how you made it through

> >these changes.  I forgot to mention that my good friend and best client

> >had a heart attack on Saturday.

> >

> >

> 

> Got through it exactly as you are getting through it now... and you will

get

> through it.  And you'll somehow be more human on the other side.  That's

one of

> the things I love about JK and the other beats.  They knew that and

expressed

> it.  It's why I think you're beat, Bentz.  Hang in there.

> 

> Shalom,

> ---Wes

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:45:03 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

 

Neil.  thanks, haven't had a chance to read the article yet.

 

you point up something extremely significant in the art world:  collaboration.

 from painting to performance art, no one ever "does" it completely alone,

whether it be seeking and the incorporating the opinions/ideas of others of

one work in progress, or having assistance or having editors - it all comes

down to the involvement of more than one person at some point.  Rembrandt's

paintings; Shakespeare's plays; Mozart's operas; many, many sculptors; the

Beatles, etc., etc.  This guy must not have a long and deep experience with

art to make collaboration sound like a dirty word.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:40:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Gehner <jgehner@SIU.EDU>

Subject:      INVITATION FOR SUBMISSIONS

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"A paranoid is a man who knows a little of what's going on."

                                --William S. Burroughs

 

I am currently a Sponsoring Editor at Southern Illinois University Press,

and I would like to expand our list of studies on the Beats as well as on

those artists and individuals who moved within and about their circle(s).

 

SIU Press has published work on the writing of Burroughs, Kerouac, and

others, and we've recently released Jenny Skerl's A TAWDRY PLACE OF

SALVATION: THE ART OF JANE BOWLES.  In addition, we will release during the

Fall 1998 season a book by David Sterrit entitled MAD TO BE SAVED: THE

BEATS, THE 50s, AND FILM.  We also have under consideration an examination

of Gregory Corso's writing as well as another "Beats & film" book penned by

Sterritt.

 

I invite individuals who are working on book-length studies of the Beats

and their work (as a "collective body" or as individual figures and

artists) to submit their projects for publication consideration, and I

would be happy to provide more information about our press--and submission

guidelines--to anyone who is interested.  Simply contact me at my email

address: <jgehner@siu.edu>.

 

I thank everyone for considering my invitation, and I do hope you'll pass

along this message to acquaintances and colleagues beyond the reach of the

listserv.

 

Cordially,

 

John Gehner

Sponsoring Editor

 

Southern Illinois University Press

P.O. Box 3697

Carbondale  IL  62901

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:50:42 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      sorry sean

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got you mixed up. please take my apologies for thee public flogging. found yr

original post, finally.

mc

 

Sean Elias wrote:

 

> In a message dated 97-09-17 12:50:06 EDT, you write:

> 

> << Dennis owes

>       a lot to Burroughs. Cooper doesn't even have his facts

>       together.

>       Burroughs deserves better. >>

> 

> I'm really disillusioned by all this,,,,,,,give it to dc where he likes it

> most,    the stones said star f******, star f******, star f******, that's all

> you get, fifteen minutes......

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:52:56 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: sean again

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but i disagree strongly here. the man was as patricia writes of him, perhaps a

black sheep to his born family, but a paterfamilias to his chosen famiy(s).

 

Sean Elias wrote:

 

> In a message dated 97-09-16 21:32:18 EDT, you write:

> 

> <<  gotta say, I was disappointed with the tone of the SPIN article >>

> 

> a second thought...gotta say that WSB always appealed to me as the black

> sheep---the one designed for you to hate---perhaps he accomplished this too

> well........

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:27:54 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: sean again

 

i agree marie, but sean has a point too.  the black sheep connotation is no

longer simply the bad, lazy, evil family slouch.  it has the appeal of the

rebel, perhaps even innovator; the person who is true to him/erself.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:38:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To:  <3421DA4C.6843@pacbell.net>

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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> 

> A local Palo Alto company is doing a series of postcard with "pulp"

> covers which are wonderful--including "Junky".  The Subterr. cover fits

> right in.

> 

> J. Stauffer

 

Would love to get ahold of some of these cards.  You know the name of the

company producing them?

 

Thanks.

Jorgiana>

 

* You can always tell a Texan, but not much.*

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:46:09 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Ginzy/Cornershop

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Any AG experts out there know anything about  a cut from Cornershops CD

"When I Was Born for the Seventh Time" titled "When the Light Appears

Boy" cited in the notes as a poem written and performed by AG.  Text

seems to be a few sampled and twisted lines about food and cooking.

Interesting.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:42:27 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@BUCHENROTH.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

 

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 =20

 

  -----Original Message-----From: Neil Hennessy =

<nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CAWhile I do believe The Wild Boys is =

brilliant, and Naked Lunch less so, I'd like to know exactly what Mr. =

Cooper means by "before heroin addiction stunted his talent". That =

statement is patently absurd. Heroin addiction precedes Naked Lunch, and =

was extremely important in the development of the controlling metaphor =

(of Control) throughout the book. Naked Lunch was written after coming =

out the other side. If he hadn't been a junky, he wouldn't have broke =

any ground. According to what Mr. Cooper claims, Burroughs was clean as =

a whistle when writing Naked Lunch and The WildBoys, but then became a =

heroin addict to the detriment of his writing. I would like to read the =

biography he used as his source for this assessment.

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

-------

 

 

I  agree =97 absolutely absurd! I had a graduate (500) level Literature =

instructor at Ohio State University tell our Contemporary American =

literature class (1950 to present), Ken Kesey hadn't yet ingested LSD or =

any hallucinogenic substance prior to writing "One Flew Over the =

Cuckoo's Nest!" Dr. Weatherford insisted, "No writer could write such =

prose while high." The quarter a prior, I had just finished Thompson's, =

"Hells Angels," "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas," and Wolf's "Electric =

Kool Aid Acid Test" which of course had sent me off into American Beat =

"On The Road" to find out more about "Speed Limit Cassady" as so many =

million of us did. (That reading was my pleasure. The class was for the =

system.) That character has caught the absolute attention and =

fascination of millions of Americans I suppose as Cassady embodies what =

we all sought or seek. Kesey and the Pranksters did too. I always =

wondered if DR Weatherford ever realized he had Amer. Lit students =

floating around in class near the ceiling, taking notes of course, not =

like Penrod Schofield floating out the window to impress pink dress =

endowed Margaret. Like Duke the dog when he restored much to mother =

nature having participated in Penrod and Sam's preliminary trial of a =

new pharmaceutical mixture, DR Weatherford puked invented bullshit and =

called it a lecture. Duke foamed at the mouth during each of the =

exhibited dry-heave gagging head and facial movements 59 times according =

to Penrod or 67 if one accepted Sam's count yet only upchucked actual =

substance just once there as he expelled Duke and Sam's experimental =

medicine. It was probably horse medicine they determined. I suppose we =

literary type folks like DR Weatherford can easily embody the story =

personally interpreted; and then present it to others that way unable to =

separate ourselves from it.

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

-------

 

 

  "Gimme a J! Gimme a U! Gimme an N! Gimme a K! What's that spell? =

JUNK!"=20

 

Gimme an F! Gimme a U! Gimme a C! Gimme a K! What's that spell?=20

 

-Mike Buchenroth

 

 

Neil

 

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BCC4F9.7C8AC020

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        charset="iso-8859-1"

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">

<HTML>

<HEAD>

 

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1008.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#c0c0c0><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =

size=3D2><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20

color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>

<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp;&nbsp;</P>

<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp; -----Original Message-----From: Neil Hennessy=20

&lt;nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CAWhile I do believe The Wild Boys =

is=20

brilliant, and Naked Lunch less so, I'd like to know exactly what Mr. =

Cooper=20

means by &quot;before heroin addiction stunted his talent&quot;. That =

statement=20

is patently absurd. Heroin addiction precedes Naked Lunch, and was =

extremely=20

important in the development of the controlling metaphor (of Control) =

throughout=20

the book. Naked Lunch was written after coming out the other side. If he =

hadn't=20

been a junky, he wouldn't have broke any ground. According to what Mr. =

Cooper=20

claims, Burroughs was clean as a whistle when writing Naked Lunch and =

The=20

WildBoys, but then became a heroin addict to the detriment of his =

writing. I=20

would like to read the biography he used as his source for this=20

assessment.</P></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000>

<P align=3Dleft>

<HR>

</P></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>

<P align=3Dleft>I&nbsp; agree &mdash; absolutely absurd! I had a =

graduate (500)=20

level Literature instructor at Ohio State University tell our =

Contemporary=20

American literature class (1950 to present), Ken Kesey hadn't yet =

ingested LSD=20

or any hallucinogenic substance prior to writing &quot;One Flew Over the =

 

Cuckoo's Nest!&quot; Dr. Weatherford insisted, &quot;No writer could =

write such=20

prose while high.&quot; The quarter a prior, I had just finished =

Thompson's,=20

&quot;Hells Angels,&quot; &quot;Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas,&quot; =

and Wolf's=20

&quot;Electric Kool Aid Acid Test&quot; which of course had sent me off =

into=20

American Beat &quot;On The Road&quot; to find out more about &quot;Speed =

Limit=20

Cassady&quot; as so many million of us did. (That reading was my =

pleasure. The=20

class was for the system.) That character has caught the absolute =

attention and=20

fascination of millions of Americans I suppose as Cassady embodies what =

we all=20

sought or seek. Kesey and the Pranksters did too. I always wondered if =

DR=20

Weatherford ever realized he had Amer. Lit students floating around in =

class=20

near the ceiling, taking notes of course, not like Penrod Schofield =

floating out=20

the window to impress pink dress endowed Margaret. Like Duke the dog =

when he=20

restored much to mother nature having participated in Penrod and Sam's=20

preliminary trial of a new pharmaceutical mixture, DR Weatherford puked =

invented=20

bullshit and called it a lecture. Duke foamed at the mouth during each =

of the=20

exhibited dry-heave gagging head and facial movements 59 times according =

to=20

Penrod or 67 if one accepted Sam's count yet only upchucked actual =

substance=20

just once there as he expelled Duke and Sam's experimental medicine. It =

was=20

probably horse medicine they determined. I suppose we literary type =

folks like=20

DR Weatherford can easily embody the story personally interpreted; and =

then=20

present it to others that way unable to separate ourselves from it.</P>

<P align=3Dleft>

<HR>

 

<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp; &quot;Gimme a J! Gimme a U! Gimme an N! Gimme a =

K! What's=20

that spell? JUNK!&quot;&nbsp;</P>

<P align=3Dleft>Gimme an F! Gimme a U! Gimme a C! Gimme a K! What's that =

 

spell?&nbsp;</P>

<P align=3Dleft>-Mike Buchenroth</P></FONT>

<P><BR>Neil<BR></FONT>&nbsp;

<P></FONT></BODY></HTML>

 

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=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:13:31 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Ginzy/Cornershop

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On further listening I had misidentified the Ginsberg cut from this

CD--very recognizable Allen reading a funny little thing with doggerell

like rhymes--parts would be hard to transcribe with certainty, but one

of Allan's cute young boy poems.  Either written before the publication

of Selected Poems or not included.  Anyone know anything about this

piece?

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:27:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      october's Cover of the Month and Web Page Update!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The Cover of the Month is now ready with a sincere thanks to Bill Gargan for

the scan. The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page has been updated as well. Please

visit us at:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page5.html

 

                         Thank-you! Paul of TKQ...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:27:11 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: october's Cover of the Month and Web Page Update!

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Wonderful "Tristessa" cover.

 

Thanks Bill.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:28:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

In-Reply-To:  <3420E817.ADE@midusa.net>

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On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> MATT HANNAN wrote:

> >

> >      SNIP-OROONEY The Subterraneans cover (one of my

> >      favorites) looks like it should, a dime store novel--a la Junkie and

> >      Queer (excellent "trashy" covers as well--and befitting it's theme.

> >      Kitsch, trash, whatever you call, it was "sensational" then and it's

> >      nostalgic now.

> 

> Speaking of Dimestores, i got a paperback copy (not 1st edition) of

> Desolation Angels at Goodwill today for a dime.>

 

yes, one of the paperbacks which i purchased is the 1971 Bantam

_Desolation Angels_ with an introduction by Seymour Krim.  Is this the one

that you have Race?

 

jenn thompson

 > dbr

> >

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:34:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997091816001692@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> I love those trashy covers.  In fact, I've sent one to Paul Maher to post on

 th

> e Kerouac Quarterly web site.  Look forward to a wonderful cover from a

 British

>  edition of Tristessa.

> 

i just wanted to clarify my original message concerning the covers.  i do

like them for nostalgia reasons; however, i'm wondering whether that image

hurts JK's academic standing (i can't think of another way to put this) in

the long run.  sure, his books are still selling.  his novels and poetry

are placed with classics in many bookstores.  but what about the critics

of today.  how many of his works are considered major for mid-twentieth

century fiction?  sure there's always going to be a period of critical

neglect, but come on.  will the beat legend ever surpass that "hooligan"

image fostered in part by those covers?

 

jenn thompson

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:40:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.95.970918165150.24661D-100000@devel.nacs.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

 

> On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

> 

> > of OTR and the Beats.  Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

> > the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

> > the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.

> 

> Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for submission? I

> couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in brown

> paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

> 

correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it a roll of drawing paper that JK

found in Cannastra's old loft? i think i remember reading this in _Memory

Babe_.

 

jenn thompson

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:45:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19970918165350.2737c840@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Mike R.:

 

in your message (it got too long for me to include, and i'm an idiot when

it comes to editing) you indicated that you haven't seen any of the old

tawdry covers.  if that's so, the JK bio., "Angel Headed Hipster" has

prints of the old OTR paperback covers.  (those resemble harlequins as

well.)  anyhow, hope this info. was of some help.

 

jenn thompson

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:41:38 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A41.3.96.970919093742.107118A-100000@kitts.u.arizona. edu>

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Ciao My Friends,

 

i've under my eyes the cover of "Sulla strada" dated april 1967 printed

out ten years after the american edition this is the italian translation

of the Jack Kerouac's great work (Fernanda Pivano translates at

her best!), i bought the book in 1969, and...

 

this edition has for me a GREAT nostalgia feeling, remember of

something like a scent of autumn in an italy with great promises

and new frontiers &... & now 30 year

 

later...

 

it's wonderful to compare the today covers (1997 edition)

and the 1967...  if i understand right there is an interest to

collect the OTR cover (even italian?) i'm agree to post on the web

or via email the 1967 italian cover of the "On the Road"...

please, somebody let me know,

 

cari saluti a tutti,

Rinaldo.

* Jack Kerouac always beats the Umberto Eco's Law of the poket

book millenium catastrophe *

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:54:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To:  <3421DA4C.6843@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> The Subterraneans cover (one of my

> > >      favorites) looks like it should, a dime store novel--a la Junkie and

> > >      Queer (excellent "trashy" covers as well--and befitting it's theme.

> > >      Kitsch, trash, whatever you call, it was "sensational" then and it's

> > >      nostalgic now.

> >

> I don't remember who was complaining about the old covers hurting the

> "seriousness" of Jack's books.  I love them.  Who needs serious anyway?

> 

> A local Palo Alto company is doing a series of postcard with "pulp"

> covers which are wonderful--including "Junky".  The Subterr. cover fits

> right in.

> 

> J. Stauffer

> 

i was complaining, or really questioning the potential damage.  i love the

covers too, because as someone else pointed out the novels were, after

all, sensational; so why not have sensational covers.  but i do care,

because i, and many others, have recognized the genius in jack's works

and i'd like to see the works continued to be read for generations to

come. (Like Shakespeare's works.)  the only way that this will be possible

is to have Kerouac recognized on an ongoing basis in the academic realm.

 

sure, it's probably a very small points.  the covers of 40 years ago are

probably not affecting Kerouac's status today.   if not, then i say great.

nifty covers.

 

jenn thompson

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:03:56 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jennifer Thompson wrote

 

> century fiction?  sure there's always going to be a period of critical

> neglect, but come on.  will the beat legend ever surpass that "hooligan"

> image fostered in part by those covers?

 

 

 

I think it is important to remember that the paperback was a cheap form

at that time.  "Quality paperbacks" were yet to come.  Remember the

Beatles "Paperback Writer"--the association of all paper with pulp

except for cheap versions of classics like the Penguin series was

strong.  Also, everything was marketed this way--look at old film

posters and trailers.

 

My informal polling also suggests that there is a sex division here.

Most males love these.  We liked Jack partly for the sex drugs kicks

thing which is what those covers sell.  The current covers give us the

"serious" Jack.  The old covers give us the rebel--a little distorted

perhaps, but fun. You ladies love Jack as the serious, misunderstood

boy, if you had only been there to give him the love he needed!    Both

views are true.

 

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:26:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:34 PM 9/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

>> I love those trashy covers.  In fact, I've sent one to Paul Maher to post on

> th

>> e Kerouac Quarterly web site.  Look forward to a wonderful cover from a

> British

>>  edition of Tristessa.

>> 

>i just wanted to clarify my original message concerning the covers.  i do

>like them for nostalgia reasons; however, i'm wondering whether that image

>hurts JK's academic standing (i can't think of another way to put this) in

>the long run.  sure, his books are still selling.  his novels and poetry

>are placed with classics in many bookstores.  but what about the critics

>of today.  how many of his works are considered major for mid-twentieth

>century fiction?  sure there's always going to be a period of critical

>neglect, but come on.  will the beat legend ever surpass that "hooligan"

>image fostered in part by those covers?

> 

>jenn thompson

 

Jack Kerouac's academic standing doesn't need the help of book covers. His

work is such that it demands scholarly study because of its enigmatic and

aesthetic qualities. From the strength of the dissertations in my second

Kerouac Quarterly

only serves to prove my statements. Regards, paul...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:10:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac scroll

In-Reply-To:  <970919034130_-563890123@emout20.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Attila Gyenis wrote:

 

> Regarding what On the Road was typed on, it is said to be tracing paper, each

> section was 12 feet long, taped together. (I also heard that it was shelving

> paper). I did actually see it during the Whitney Beat show in New York, and

> it did look like tracing paper, it is slightly translucent. The first part of

> the scroll is messed up, supposedly because a dog chewed on it (I forget

> whose dog it was, must be the same one that chewed my homework). It is 120

> feet long, single space.

> 

> Attila Gyenis

> 

yes, i also remember reading something to the effect that a dog chewed on

it.l

 

jenn thompson

> 

> In a message dated 97-09-18 17:41:37 EDT, you write

> 

> << >> of OTR and the Beats.  Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

>  >> the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

>  >> the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.

>  >

>  >Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for submission? I

>  >couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in brown

>  >paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

>  >

>  >

>  Someone has corrected me on this.  It was actually telegraph paper or an

>  Associated >>

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:20:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To:  <3422BE8C.C6F@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Jennifer Thompson wrote

> 

> > century fiction?  sure there's always going to be a period of critical

> > neglect, but come on.  will the beat legend ever surpass that "hooligan"

> > image fostered in part by those covers?

> 

> 

> 

> I think it is important to remember that the paperback was a cheap form

> at that time.  "Quality paperbacks" were yet to come.  Remember the

> Beatles "Paperback Writer"--the association of all paper with pulp

> except for cheap versions of classics like the Penguin series was

> strong.  Also, everything was marketed this way--look at old film

> posters and trailers.

> 

> My informal polling also suggests that there is a sex division here.

> Most males love these.  We liked Jack partly for the sex drugs kicks

> thing which is what those covers sell.  The current covers give us the

> "serious" Jack.  The old covers give us the rebel--a little distorted

> perhaps, but fun. You ladies love Jack as the serious, misunderstood

> boy, if you had only been there to give him the love he needed!    Both

> views are true.

> 

> 

> J. Stauffer

> 

ok, ok.  from a historical perspective---yes, the covers were necessary

for marketing.  But i love jack the rebel too.  before i even noticed the

literary quality of OTR (the first of his novels which i read) i

sympathized with his need to rebel, with his anti-materialistic message,

etc.   But---once again i just want to see his works live on.  it has

nothing to do with my gender.

 

jenn thompson

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:23:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19970919182613.0068b148@pop.pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

thanks paul, for finally responding to my original question.  i think i

knew it in my heart, i was just feeling somewhat like an academic snob

yesterday.  i apologize if i offended you or anyone else on the list with

this query.

 

jenn thompson

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:04:08 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re[2]: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     Au contrare mon belle....

 

     I onced published a dorm newsletter printed (via a daisywheel printer)

     on toilet paper--Air Force Issue of course.  The text was clean and

     crisp, no smudges, etc.  I even saddlestitched the finished

     newsletter.  Wish I'd saved some of those.

 

     To keep this mildly on topic, has anyone ever used the New Yorker AS

     toilet paper?  That seems to be the current concensus among the

     literati, the rag is only fit for the midden.  I've only read a few

     back issues lately, one interesting article by Joan Didion's husband,

     other than that I can agree.  I'll track down the Brinkley arts. just

     for the Beat collection.

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    9/19/97 12:53 AM

 

 

that's correct, Jon, would be impossible to type on toilet paper anyway and

certainly would have thwarted the whole notion of being able to type

continuously without changing the paper - which was the whole point in the

first place.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:06:18 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re[2]: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     I've got a postcard of it, been meaning to scan it and share (for

     non-commercial use of course).

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    9/19/97 1:00 AM

 

 

the OTR role is still around, was part of the Beat Exhibition here last year,

unless i'm grievously mistaken.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:07:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:23 PM 9/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>thanks paul, for finally responding to my original question.  i think i

>knew it in my heart, i was just feeling somewhat like an academic snob

>yesterday.  i apologize if i offended you or anyone else on the list with

>this query.

> 

>jenn thompson

>  No apology needed! Yours is important as any other....I think the one

thing I am attempting to endeavor with The Kerouac Quarterly is to implement

a place where the serious study of Jack and his work can be properly

forumed. (Is that a  verb? It is now...) With the intellectual snobbery so

prevalent in our hallowed halls of study it is up to us to support our hero

with the same passion he had

bestowed upon his work and his life. Not to get too serious...TKQ is there

for just good reading too! Take care, Paul...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:25:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Re the tawdry covers... they weren't all like that. Some of you will have

seen the cover from my copy of the Grove edition of Subteraneans which has a

quite serious and beautiful illustration (of a bridge) by the house

illustrator/designer Roy Kuhlman. Paul Maher had it posted at his web site

of Kerouac covers. It was Kuhlman who did the famous Autobiography of

Malcolm X book cover.

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:33:23 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

so's mine, antoine. thank for the reminder. i have mine right in front of me.

mc

 

Antoine Maloney wrote:

 

> Re the tawdry covers... they weren't all like that. Some of you will have

> seen the cover from my copy of the Grove edition of Subteraneans which has a

> quite serious and beautiful illustration (of a bridge) by the house

> illustrator/designer Roy Kuhlman. Paul Maher had it posted at his web site

> of Kerouac covers. It was Kuhlman who did the famous Autobiography of

> Malcolm X book cover.

> 

>         Antoine

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:38:04 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

yikes: those stiff glossy thick pages hurt. but so does reading it, lately

 inmyopin

as well

mc

(who now reads tricycle)

 

MATT HANNAN wrote:

 

>      Au contrare mon belle....

> 

>      I onced published a dorm newsletter printed (via a daisywheel printer)

>      on toilet paper--Air Force Issue of course.  The text was clean and

>      crisp, no smudges, etc.  I even saddlestitched the finished

>      newsletter.  Wish I'd saved some of those.

> 

>      To keep this mildly on topic, has anyone ever used the New Yorker AS

>      toilet paper?  That seems to be the current concensus among the

>      literati, the rag is only fit for the midden.  I've only read a few

>      back issues lately, one interesting article by Joan Didion's husband,

>      other than that I can agree.  I'll track down the Brinkley arts. just

>      for the Beat collection.

> 

>      love and lilies,

> 

>      matt

> 

> ______________________________ Reply Separator

 _________________________________

> Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

> Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

> Date:    9/19/97 12:53 AM

> 

> that's correct, Jon, would be impossible to type on toilet paper anyway and

> certainly would have thwarted the whole notion of being able to type

> continuously without changing the paper - which was the whole point in the

> first place.

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:19:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re[2]: Kerouac book covers

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

<snippage>

>however, i'm wondering whether that image hurts JK's academic standing (i

can't think of another way to put this) in the long run.

<further snippage>will the beat legend ever surpass that "hooligan" image

fostered in part by those covers?

<stop the snipping>

 

 

     Jenn,

 

     With a school named for one member at a "unique" university, classes

     taught at probably dozens of schools, recognition from their peers and

     progeny, major new issues and reissues of works, and a 250-odd member

     listserv devoted to them (grin), fear not, the Beats have legitimacy.

 

     I'd substitute "rebel" for "hooligan" and even then say "hurray for

     holliganism", someone had to stand up to Ike!

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt h.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:39:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac scroll

 

Reply to message from GYENIS@AOL.COM of Fri, 19 Sep

> 

>Regarding what On the Road was typed on, it is said to be tracing paper, each

>section was 12 feet long, taped together. (I also heard that it was shelving

>paper). I did actually see it during the Whitney Beat show in New York, and

>it did look like tracing paper, it is slightly translucent. The first part of

>the scroll is messed up, supposedly because a dog chewed on it (I forget

>whose dog it was, must be the same one that chewed my homework). It is 120

>feet long, single space.

> 

>Attila Gyenis

 

wasn't it Lucien's dog?  Because didn't he write OTR while living with

Lucien?  Soemone did say already that Lucien got him the teletype paper.

 

Diane. (H)

 

 

--

I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia Plath

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:44:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      backSPIN

 

For Beat-L consumption: Letter to the Editors, SPIN magazine:

==============================================

Subj:   Spin

Date:   Thu, Sep 18, 1997 7:30 PM EDT

From:  [email address suppressed]  (Barry Miles)

 

 

Dear SPIN:

 

I've just read the obituary of William Burroughs in your October issue in

which Dennis Cooper says: "It's a well-known secret that, beginning with his

1981 'comeback' novel, Cities of the Red Night, Burroughs's prose was a

product of partial ghostwriting, and that his involvement in his books

steadily diminished."

 

This is an absurd allegation and were Bill still alive he would, I hope, have

reacted by pursuing Cooper mercilessly through the courts. Sadly he is no

longer with us and can be libelled with impunity. I knew and worked with Bill

from 1964. I catalogued his archives, co-authored his bibliography for the

University of Virginia Press Bibliography Society, and wrote a portrait of

his life and work called El Hombre Invisible which was published in the USA

by Hyperion. In the course of my researches I read all the various drafts of

Cities of the Red Night and can assure your readers that William Burroughs

wrote every word in it.

 

Throughout his career Burroughs collaborated with other people on his books:

the fragmentary routines which were the genesis of The Naked Lunch were

originally edited into shape by Allen Ginsberg (that early draft was issued

as Interzone); Ian Sommerville, Michael Portman, and others are all credited

as collaborators in his sixties novels and he did several straight forward

collaborations with Brion Gysin. The confusion over Cities of the Red Night

possibly rises from the fact that the final published version differed

considerably from the draft first given to the publisher. The differences,

however, are virtually all in the editing: the final draft has different

placement and selection of material. Burroughs assembled his books from vast

piles of manuscripts and material left over from one book was often used in

the next. The Soft Machine, for instance, was rewritten three times using

different material.

 

If someone else wrote Burroughs later books who then does Cooper think it

was, and why wasn't this person named? Could it be that they are still alive

and might sue? It is of course an understandable career move for a young

writer to be an iconoclast and attack the status quo - even if the status quo

in his line of business is Burroughs - but this slur on Bill's work cannot go

unchallenged. At best Cooper was ill-informed and at worst he was lying.

Please let him present his sources or make a public apology.

 

With best wishes

 

Barry Miles

================================

forwarded by ddr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:59:41 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: a little permission if you please...

 

it's  cool with me.

 

i'm just gonna vote.  don't need to comment.

 

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff

howl 420@juno.com

 

 "Someone must have been telling lies about Joeseph K. for without having

done

  anything wrong , two men came and arrested him this morning."  -Kafka

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:24:16 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Iowa connecting

 

On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:01:17 -0400 Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

writes:

>I'm heading out for a two week reading tour of Iowa (not hitchhiking!)

>Sept. 25 through Oct. 9. 10 - 12 readings around the state. Anyone on

>the list from there? Anyone want to connect out in mid-America? I'll

send

>more info to anyone interested.

> 

>Michael

> 

 

My name is Brian Kirchhoff and I'm out in Omaha, Nebraska.  Let me have

that  more info you mentioned.  We're right next to Iowa and all.

There's a couple others on the list here in Omaha.  Something may work

out.

 

If you  e-mail me back, copy it to:     bkirchho@unomaha.edu

as i have better access to that account from home.

 

thanks.

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff

howl 420@juno.com

 

 "Being the adventures of a man whose principle interests are

    Rape, Ultra-violence and Beethoven."  -A Clockwork Orange

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:01:18 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

Jorgiana and to the rest as well,

 

Regarding "the last time i committed suicide," Yes i've seen it and in fact i

have a copy, but I think you're mistaken about Keanu Reeves playing JK. Keanu

played a character that was simply a random friend of Neal's.  In the "Joan

Anderson" letter which the movie is based on, (you can find it in The

Portable Beat Reader) Neal doesn't mention Reeves' character only his

"younger blood brother." I was curious about Keanu's role and wondered if

anyone knew who he was supposed to potray. Did the director take artistic

lisence and make up this character, or did he exist? By the way, I really

enjoyed the movie. I could be wrong, but i really hope that Keanu wasn't

playing JK, that would be a serious casting mistake. Thanks.

 

                                                      ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:02:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      kerouac article

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Jon: I think the article you are looking for is by Jack McClintock, "This

Is How the Ride Ends: Not with a Bang, with a Damn Hernia." It appeared

in _Esquire_ (March 1970): 138-39, 188-89. Any decent (or indecent)

library should carry _Esquire_.

Cordially,

Michael Skau

9/19/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:07:42 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac book covers

 

i don't know about the east coast, but Jack and other Beats are taken

seriously academically, in, at least, Northern Cal.  seems to me that most

academics have no choice but to acknowledge that the Beats were responsible

for much of the new writing/art/music of the last half of this century.  also,

i think the fact that there have been the Beat exhibits at many first rate

museums around the country indicates that Beat lit, art are taken very

seriously.

 

all art forms wax and wane in popularity depending on the general state of

society; however, i think that this "genre" is being taken under a fair amount

academic consideration that should ensure that the Beats will never fall into

complete ignominy.

 

if you want an example to ease your mind, Bach was completely lost to

classical music for about 150 years- disdained by the few who knew of him,

simply unknown by most.  it wasn't until Brahms dug him out of the anonymous

grave of artists that he began to truly be appreciated (outside of his own

period) and honored for his greatness and contributions.

 

as i have always thought, the "voice" of great, true art can never be

permanently silenced.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:15:37 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: backSPIN

 

Diane,

 

thanks for the forward.  great letter from Barry!!  i wonder if/when

objectivity will return to journalism?

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:14:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac scroll

In-Reply-To:  <199709192039.QAA21582@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>

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>Reply to message from GYENIS@AOL.COM of Fri, 19 Sep

>> 

>>Regarding what On the Road was typed on, it is said to be tracing paper, e=

ach

>>section was 12 feet long, taped together. (I also heard that it was shelvi=

ng

>>paper). I did actually see it during the Whitney Beat show in New York, an=

d

>>it did look like tracing paper, it is slightly translucent. The first part=

 of

>>the scroll is messed up, supposedly because a dog chewed on it (I forget

>>whose dog it was, must be the same one that chewed my homework). It is 120

>>feet long, single space.

>> 

>>Attila Gyenis

> 

>wasn't it Lucien's dog?  Because didn't he write OTR while living with

>Lucien?  Soemone did say already that Lucien got him the teletype paper.

> 

Kerouac wrote OTR on Lucien's dog?????????

 

leo

 

 

"Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of

your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,

you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly

will. Ad astra per aspera."  --Jack Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:46:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

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He didn't type it in one sitting and it wasn't toilet paper. I think toilet

paper, although lengthy, would be too thin. But if you've ever used any

toilet paper in a store or office building you might think different. :)

 

----------

> From: Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

> Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 10:40 AM

> 

> On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

> 

> > On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

> >

> > > of OTR and the Beats.  Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

> > > the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

> > > the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.

> >

> > Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for

submission? I

> > couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in

brown

> > paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

> 

> Read "Kerouac" by Charters.  She tells all about it.  Cool pictures

> too...although having flipped thru the web looking for info on him, it

> seems she isn't thought of very highly among fans.

> 

> Jorgiana>

> 

> * You can always tell a Texan, but not much.*

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:59:21 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dufour <dufour@ULISSE.IT>

Subject:      Patriots?

Comments: To: BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

MIME-Version: 1.0

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The beats were (or can be considered) someway "patriots" ?

 

If yes, is possible to define a sort of "way of being american" according

to JK, AG, WSB, etc. ?

 

Ciao !

 

Francesco.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:38:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

Subject:      Re: Patriots?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Yes, absolutly! A new way of seeing, hearing, thinking, and feeling

AMERICAN and HUMAN in general.

 

----------

> From: Dufour <dufour@ULISSE.IT>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Patriots?

> Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 5:59 PM

> 

> The beats were (or can be considered) someway "patriots" ?

> 

> If yes, is possible to define a sort of "way of being american" according

> to JK, AG, WSB, etc. ?

> 

> Ciao !

> 

> Francesco.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:13:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I read Naked Lunch in 1970 and think nothing of it.  I

can't remember much about it, except that there was little]

in it that you could interpret let alone remember. I have

been hearing that Burroughs wrote a book called Junkie.  I

am hoping he might have written it before Naked Lunch, and that

it might be autobiographical.  Could someone tell me when it

was written, and, briefly, what it is about.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:13:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: eric and sean

Mime-Version: 1.0

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around Indianapolis, his death was seen as one

> of those "thank God that scumbag is gone.  He's corrupting my children"

> kind of deaths.  His obit was in the paper (amazingly!) but all other

> media outlets ignored it.

 

 

These remarks about Burroughs' death and the effect in Indianapolis, reminded

me how few people really understand the significance of Burroughs, Ginsberg

and the Beats.  My mother will be 80 in late October.  Last night, I rewatched

the Ginsberg documentary and talked to her about it.  She was unaware that

the Beats started a movement that released a strait jacket that was enveloping

American culture in the 40s and 50s.  She did not see the post War 11 culture

in all its stultifying stupor, before the beats rolled their bowling ball

against

the stupidity of the era, and scored.., a spare.  She had never considered

Elvis,

the Beats, playing Race Music, gay rights, feminism and stonewall, as

building blocks

to the free and open society we have today.  The Beats talked about how awful

it was to read about the evil tide of Communism in every newspaper, about how

if any woman stepped off the trolley that was the sexual mainstream, she would

be ruined; and that the Dulles brothers brinkmanship would keep the world safe

for democracy.  For a young person in that era, the underlying

assumptions of our society could be called predetermined.  If you did this, you

had a chance, but if you thought along those lines, you could wind up on

skid row.

It was not an optimistic atmosphere to grow up in.  It was like the Catholic

religion at the time, a catalogue of sins you had to avoid in order to be

redeemed.  Even without the Beats, young people naturally hoped for something

better.  And they got it.

 

My mother was not convinced by my talk last night.  Neither would the people

of Indianapolis.  Mostly, the mainstream never gets it.  Thats the way it goes.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:37:08 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 12:04 PM 9/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

>     Au contrare mon belle....

> 

>     I onced published a dorm newsletter printed (via a daisywheel printer)

>     on toilet paper--Air Force Issue of course.  The text was clean and

>     crisp, no smudges, etc.  I even saddlestitched the finished

>     newsletter.  Wish I'd saved some of those.

> 

>     To keep this mildly on topic, has anyone ever used the New Yorker AS

>     toilet paper?  That seems to be the current concensus among the

>     literati, the rag is only fit for the midden.  I've only read a few

>     back issues lately, one interesting article by Joan Didion's husband,

>     other than that I can agree.  I'll track down the Brinkley arts. just

>     for the Beat collection.

> 

>     love and lilies,

> 

>     matt

> 

> 

>______________________________ Reply Separator

_________________________________

>Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

>Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

>Date:    9/19/97 12:53 AM

> 

> 

>that's correct, Jon, would be impossible to type on toilet paper anyway and

>certainly would have thwarted the whole notion of being able to type

>continuously without changing the paper - which was the whole point in the

>first place.

> 

>ciao,

>sherri

> 

> 

And now for a few words about the New Yorker:  I think it is not the magazine

it once was, but it is more accessible.  In the old days you'd page thru a

whole issue and read nothing but Talk of the Town.  I often read most of it

now, but will admit the depth of today's New Yorker is less than it once was.

Its still a more literate magazine than any other mass magazine in America

today.  I miss the old one too, but like the new one.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:37:14 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Of course it was supposed to be Kerouac.  It wasn't much of a role,

though.  It was mostly to add some Jack glamour to a film that was

100% about neal.

 

Mike Rice

 

At 05:01 PM 9/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Jorgiana and to the rest as well,

> 

>Regarding "the last time i committed suicide," Yes i've seen it and in fact i

>have a copy, but I think you're mistaken about Keanu Reeves playing JK. Keanu

>played a character that was simply a random friend of Neal's.  In the "Joan

>Anderson" letter which the movie is based on, (you can find it in The

>Portable Beat Reader) Neal doesn't mention Reeves' character only his

>"younger blood brother." I was curious about Keanu's role and wondered if

>anyone knew who he was supposed to potray. Did the director take artistic

>lisence and make up this character, or did he exist? By the way, I really

>enjoyed the movie. I could be wrong, but i really hope that Keanu wasn't

>playing JK, that would be a serious casting mistake. Thanks.

> 

>                                                      ~~Marlene

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:37:17 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac scroll

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:14 PM 9/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>Reply to message from GYENIS@AOL.COM of Fri, 19 Sep

>>> 

>>>Regarding what On the Road was typed on, it is said to be tracing paper, each

>>>section was 12 feet long, taped together. (I also heard that it was shelving

>>>paper). I did actually see it during the Whitney Beat show in New York, and

>>>it did look like tracing paper, it is slightly translucent. The first part of

>>>the scroll is messed up, supposedly because a dog chewed on it (I forget

>>>whose dog it was, must be the same one that chewed my homework). It is 120

>>>feet long, single space.

>>> 

>>>Attila Gyenis

>> 

>>wasn't it Lucien's dog?  Because didn't he write OTR while living with

>>Lucien?  Soemone did say already that Lucien got him the teletype paper.

>> 

>Kerouac wrote OTR on Lucien's dog?????????

> 

>leo

> 

> 

>"Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of

>your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,

>you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly

>will. Ad astra per aspera."  --Jack Kerouac

> 

> 

 

If its going to be between Lucien's Dog and toilet paper, I prefer my

earlier idea: toilet paper.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:17:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Patriots?

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Jason Newman wrote:

> 

> Yes, absolutly! A new way of seeing, hearing, thinking, and feeling

> AMERICAN and HUMAN in general.

 

I think there is a fine line involved in using the word patriot to

describe the beats.  According to the dictionary, a patriot is one who

loves, is loyal to, and zealously supports his country.  The attraction

of the beats is that they were outside the mainstream, and they were

horrified by the view of America that they saw rising out of their time,

the industrial giant ready and willing to use bombs that could eventually

destroy the world.  I don't think that Ginsberg, Kerouac or Burroughs

loved America as it was then.  They loved the vision of what America

could be.  Ginsberg probably more than any of the rest believed that he

could change America and he did have an astounding influence on political

America through his efforts in peace marches and that kind of thing.  He

believed that if America was not right he should do what he could to

change it. It is an interesting question to consider: Is his poem America

written with the voice of a patriot?  For those of us that hear the

message and agree, it is.  But I would venture that the majority of those

in mainstream America, then and now did not consider him a patriot.

Kerouac, I think, gave up on America because he could not reconcile the

way America was with the way he wanted it to be.  Burroughs lived many

years of his life outside America and his voice was directed at awakening

what was wrong with American society.  American society still has most of

the problems it had at the time of the beats.  After all of this, I guess

my point is that they were patriots for zealously NOT supporting their

country and seeking to change it.  But this view of a patriot is not the

normal one.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:19:17 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Patriots?

 

DC  wrote:

 After all of this, I guess

my point is that they were patriots for zealously NOT supporting their

country and seeking to change it.  But this view of a patriot is not the

normal one.

 

i would disagree that they didn't support their country.  they simply didn't

support mainstream social ideologies and hypocritical and detrimental

political policies.  i don't believe that patriotism = full agreement with the

mainstream or the political machine.

 

i am supporting my country by letting it know when it's wrong just as much as

i am supporting my daughter when i let her know she's doing something wrong -

my love for her is not lessened at such times, i always adore her.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:50:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      [Fwd: Dylan influenced by Kerouac?]

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Here is an interesting post from the Dylan news group, one more to

follow.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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Path:

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 in3.uu.net!208.206.146.5!news.velocity.net!not-for-mail

From: "Justin Mando" <jmando@velocity.net>

Newsgroups: rec.music.dylan

Subject: Dylan influenced by Kerouac?

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:48:07 -0400

Organization: Velocity.Net

Message-ID: <5vmu9u$g6r$1@news.velocity.net>

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Xref: Supernews69 rec.music.dylan:93781

 

Hello fellow Dylan listeners,

 

I was wondering if anyone knows if Dylan was at all influenced by Jack

Kerouac.  I just finished "On The Road" and it makes me think about Dylan.

It seems his music was influenced by Kerouac or other "beat" writers such

as Ginsberg or Burroughs possibly.  If anyone knows an answer to this

please let me know.  Thanks.  I will leave this with the coolest quote

ever.

 

"The only ones for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad

to talk, and mad to be saved, the ones who are desirous of everything at

the same time, the ones that never yawn or says a commonplace thing, but

burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow Roman candles like spiders across the

stars and the blue centerlight pops and everybody goes 'Awww!'" --Jack

Kerouac

 

 

Justin Mando

jmando@velocity.net

 

 

 

--------------4D53CBB9962F89A3542BC91D--

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:51:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      [Fwd: Strumming my gay guitar]

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Hey and I thought this list might overanalyse things too much.  This is

deconstructed?

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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 net!newsgate.duke.edu!godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu!mmoore

From: Mark Moore <mmoore@acpub.duke.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.music.dylan

Subject: Re: Strumming my gay guitar

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:32:46 -0400

Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA

Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970918132855.25398D-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu>

References: <sscobie1-1609971108060001@p18-95.dialup.uvic.ca>

 <5vrlut$gna$1@Urvile.MSUS.EDU>

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Xref: Supernews69 rec.music.dylan:93873

 

On 18 Sep 1997, LMS wrote:

 

> Playing my gay guitar, chewing on a cheap cigar.

> The cigar is phallic.  Bob is obviously gay.  Boy, Scobie worries a

> little too much.

 

He's just worried that Allen Ginsberg had a little TOO MUCH influence on

the old boy.

 

M.M.

 

--------------BA8A172DCC6C058B71738B03--

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:38:46 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr." <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

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Mike,

 

        No, no, no. . .  Reeves was not portraying Kerouac.  The entire movie was

based on a letter from Neal TO Jack. . .  how then would Jack be in the

movie?  Why would Neal write a letter to Kerouac explaining to him the

events that he had a been a party to?

        The character's name bore no resemblance to Jack Kerouac and if I recall

correctly, the character was supposed to be about ten years older than

Neal.  I certainly don't claim to be a Kerouackian expert, but there's no

way that anyone should mistake the Keanu Reeves character for Jack Kerouac.

 The guy had absolutely no personality, no drive for life, no gusto,

nothing but playing pool in shitty little pub. . . and his damn egg nog. .

.  Jack drank wine, not egg nog.

 

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:35:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Patriots?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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 The question that might be asked is  how the word got to be used. It seems

to me that it was usurped by political power brokers to point fingers at

those who  didn't follow blindly their declarations about what was good for

the country. In other words it is a term whose meaning was more often than

not, corrupted. It calls to mind MCarthyism, and other right wing orators to

"honor" those who followed orders, and to dishonor and frighten people away

from acting on their judgement.

 

I doubt that many intellectuals liked to call themselves Patriots. Some did

try to restore the meaning of the word to its dictionary definition, but by

and large the vast majority of the citizenry, not feeling informed enough to

decide for themselves, but instead choosing which leaders seemed more

trustworthy to follow, were afraid to show any support to people who did not

follow the leaders and were labeled unpatriotic.  Many young men killed and

died in Vietnam only because they were afraid to be called unpatriotic.

 

There are a few "great patriots" who were able by their achievement to

transcend the power of the political and business leadership, and who were

still called patriots, but not very many.  Even today I don't hear many

Vietnam war resisters being called patriots. Maybe they will have to  be

dead for a long time before their courageous perspective about what the

ideals of their country really called for, will be honored. When they are no

longer relevant or a real threat in setting an example to citizens not to

follow orders that leadership declares to be for the good of the country. My

country right or wrong is is usually the call of patriotism. Patriotism as a

banner call has been losing ground as citizens are getting better access to

information.

 

 -----Original Message-----

From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 6:33 PM

Subject: Re: Patriots?

 

 

 

>DC  wrote:

> After all of this, I guess

>my point is that they were patriots for zealously NOT supporting their

>country and seeking to change it.  But this view of a patriot is not the

>normal one.

> 

>i would disagree that they didn't support their country.  they simply

didn't

>support mainstream social ideologies and hypocritical and detrimental

>political policies.  i don't believe that patriotism = full agreement with

the

>mainstream or the political machine.

> 

>i am supporting my country by letting it know when it's wrong just as much

as

>i am supporting my daughter when i let her know she's doing something

wrong -

>my love for her is not lessened at such times, i always adore her.

> 

>ciao,

>sherri

>.-

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:13:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

Subject:      Re: Patriots?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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No, you're correct, it is a very unconventional use of the word patriot. I

think the "beats" were very unconventional, but I think what the beats did

was help us see the beautiful country we live in--and show us the ugly

parts that are just as much a part of America as the pretty ones. They

presented, in my opinion, a very American thing, i.e., the emotional

landscapes of America as well as the geographical ones. They seemed very

idealistic, aware of their surroundings, the people, things; alert to their

feelings, senses, and their feelings. All this seems very American to me.

After all, American Patriotism was first born out of rebellion, wasn't it?

So yes, they don't seem to be a prototype for patriotism as we know it

today, they have a very true patriotic sense, and history, about them.

 

----------

> From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: Patriots?

> Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 11:17 AM

> 

> Jason Newman wrote:

> >

> > Yes, absolutly! A new way of seeing, hearing, thinking, and feeling

> > AMERICAN and HUMAN in general.

> 

> I think there is a fine line involved in using the word patriot to

> describe the beats.  According to the dictionary, a patriot is one who

> loves, is loyal to, and zealously supports his country.  The attraction

> of the beats is that they were outside the mainstream, and they were

> horrified by the view of America that they saw rising out of their time,

> the industrial giant ready and willing to use bombs that could eventually

> destroy the world.  I don't think that Ginsberg, Kerouac or Burroughs

> loved America as it was then.  They loved the vision of what America

> could be.  Ginsberg probably more than any of the rest believed that he

> could change America and he did have an astounding influence on political

> America through his efforts in peace marches and that kind of thing.  He

> believed that if America was not right he should do what he could to

> change it. It is an interesting question to consider: Is his poem America

> written with the voice of a patriot?  For those of us that hear the

> message and agree, it is.  But I would venture that the majority of those

> in mainstream America, then and now did not consider him a patriot.

> Kerouac, I think, gave up on America because he could not reconcile the

> way America was with the way he wanted it to be.  Burroughs lived many

> years of his life outside America and his voice was directed at awakening

> what was wrong with American society.  American society still has most of

> the problems it had at the time of the beats.  After all of this, I guess

> my point is that they were patriots for zealously NOT supporting their

> country and seeking to change it.  But this view of a patriot is not the

> normal one.

> DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:09:44 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: MoonFestival

MIME-Version: 1.0

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 This may be a trivial point, but I do feel that there is here an issue that

is important. Reminds me of when I was put in jail because a leader of a

church declared us a public nuisance because we wre playing rock and roll

loudly. In fact none of the people who lived in the neighborhood objected,

and we never played when the church had any functions going on, but they

thought that it was a rowdy thing to do. We actually were quite inspired by

the full voiced sounds of our music.

 

I know you are not calling my howling at the moon a public nuisance, and

probably mean no offense, but since you do feel it enough to suggest that

the moon dislikes howling, and prefers your waving shyly, you are kind of

suggesting that my attitudes are disrespectful and not quite acceptable.

 

My feeling for howling at the moon comes from childhood days when I heard

the wolves beautiful howls in our neighboring forests. The moon didn't seem

to mind at all, or blush, and I still remember the acknowledgment that

filled the vast forests with a haunting beauty. Nor do I believe that anyone

got moon deafness from howling at the moon.

 

In fact I thought when group around a bonfire on the beach began howling

that it was quite a beautiful thing. I even tried to imagine groups around

the globe doing it. Would omming be more acceptable to you? I would not like

to disturb you or anyone, but there are plenty of places where our full

throttled sound can do wonders for us.

 

I have no objections to your preferences as a suitor of the spirit that you

imagine the moon prefers.

You should be carefull about hurting your eyes though.

 

I believe that  Yan's poetic idea is not only a very beautiful one, but that

it is also a very powerful one. Its power is especially in us everywhere

expressing our harmonious feelings in the huge variety of ways that we find

congenial to ourselves, not in judging our understanding to be more correct

than that of others.

 

Leon

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Michael R. Brown <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 8:38 PM

Subject: Re: MoonFestival

 

 

 

>On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Leon Tabory wrote:

>> Howling at the moon

> 

>The moon is a quiet spirit.

>Must get tired of all that howling.

>I wave, shyly.

>Once I looked through the telescope eyepiece so long

>I got moon blindness.

> 

> 

> 

>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

>  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

> 

>                o                                       o

>                o  The electrical depths of personality o

>                o                                       o

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:42:03 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Patriots?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 9:30 PM

Subject: Re: Patriots?

 

. They

>presented, in my opinion, a very American thing,

 

No questions about it in my mind. I do believe that what is good for

humanity is good for America. I thought we were discussing the applicability

of some terms and what their meaning was. For exmple I don't think that the

Unamercan Activities Committee quite agreed with you. and if you were around

in the days when that American Committee wielded it 's awesome power, or if

you know about it from reading history books, you would agree that the power

behind that politically defined term, was not quite following the ideals

that American means to you.

 

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:08:28 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

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 Hi Bruce,

 

I agree with you, excpet for one thing. The movie may have been based upon

the letter, but it sure took off on its own ways after that. The entire

movie was not quite faithful to the letter, or its spirit even.

 

leon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Bruce W. Hartman, Jr. <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 7:37 PM

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

 

 

>Mike,

> 

>        No, no, no. . .  Reeves was not portraying Kerouac.  The entire

movie was

>based on a letter from Neal TO Jack. . .  how then would Jack be in the

>movie?  Why would Neal write a letter to Kerouac explaining to him the

>events that he had a been a party to?

>        The character's name bore no resemblance to Jack Kerouac and if I

recall

>correctly, the character was supposed to be about ten years older than

>Neal.  I certainly don't claim to be a Kerouackian expert, but there's no

>way that anyone should mistake the Keanu Reeves character for Jack Kerouac.

> The guy had absolutely no personality, no drive for life, no gusto,

>nothing but playing pool in shitty little pub. . . and his damn egg nog. .

>.  Jack drank wine, not egg nog.

> 

>Bruce

>bwhartmanjr@iname.com

>http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:51:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Strumming my gay guitar] ...and Stephen Scobie

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Bentz,

 

        If that reference to a quote attributed to Scobie is from Stephen

Scobie's "Alias Bob Dylan" you can immediately and completely discount it as

utter, total rubbish; one of the biggest waste of time books I ever tried to

read. Kept waiting for the content and finally gave up!?!

 

                Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:53:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Jason and  Jerry Newman

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi Jason,

 

        Any relation to the great jazz recordist, Jerry Newman? He was a

friend of Jack Kerouac's and recorded extensively in the important pre-bop

and bebop clubs of Harlem.

 

                Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:31:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Macy <rodmacy@IQUEST.NET>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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I think you missed the point of my post about the feelings toward

Burroughs in Indianapolis.  When I brought up Burroughs' death to my

parents, my family and any acquaintances - even some strangers - their

reaction was either indignant or in the manner of a passing fancy at

Burroughs' death.  It was a feeling of "Good riddance" that I

encountered.  I admit my complicity in promoting this strain of virus by

not trying to comprehend Burroughs' work, but I certainly do not feel he

had an ill effect on the community or anything like that - like those

who revile him around me do.  For proof, I had a man stop me in a

bookstore the other day after noticing I was perusing "The Yage

Letters."  He asked me how I read "That Burroughs crap."  That's what I

encounter, and that's what I report from my neck of the woods.

I don't happen to agree with that public opinion and spend many hours

trying to cut through to the core of his work - albeit unsuccessfully.

That's where I stand.

 

Eric Macy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:22:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:38 PM 9/19/97 -0000, you wrote:

>Mike,

> 

>        No, no, no. . .  Reeves was not portraying Kerouac.  The entire

movie was

>based on a letter from Neal TO Jack. . .  how then would Jack be in the

>movie?  Why would Neal write a letter to Kerouac explaining to him the

>events that he had a been a party to?

>        The character's name bore no resemblance to Jack Kerouac and if I

recall

>correctly, the character was supposed to be about ten years older than

>Neal.  I certainly don't claim to be a Kerouackian expert, but there's no

>way that anyone should mistake the Keanu Reeves character for Jack Kerouac.

> The guy had absolutely no personality, no drive for life, no gusto,

>nothing but playing pool in shitty little pub. . . and his damn egg nog. .

>.  Jack drank wine, not egg nog.

> 

>Bruce

>bwhartmanjr@iname.com

>http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

> 

 

Was Neal called Neal?  I don't remember, and I don't really care

what anyone was called, and I don't care if the letter was

based on a letter Jack wrote, though it is not my sense that

the letter was from Jack.  I know what the film was about, it

was mostly about Neal, but it was sprinkled with a little manque

Jack.  As for the covering of the Keanu character.  They can't use

a Jack character without the permission of the Heirs.  Cassady is

so little known by mainstream folks that they would HAVE TO HAVE

a more recognized member of the Beats to even put this story on

the screen.  That member is Kerouac, and Reeves plays him, just as

a little seasoning in a story about Neal.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:27:14 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Eric Macy <rodmacy@IQUEST.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 11:10 PM

Subject: Re: something to SPIN...

 

 

You stand on very firm ground as far as I can tell. Apparently you respect

enough those of us who appreciate his work,and I admire your continuing

attempts. I wonder if any for examples, regarding some problems that you

experience reading Burroughs, might not bring out some very useful pointers

from our list. Might be worth a try

 

leon

 

>I don't happen to agree with that public opinion and spend many hours

>trying to cut through to the core of his work - albeit unsuccessfully.

>That's where I stand.

> 

>Eric Macy

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:34:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

Subject:      Re: Jason and  Jerry Newman

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi, Antoine. No, sorry, I don't think I'm any kin to Jerry. (smile) But, I

am a DISTANT cousin of Paul Newman. My father and him grew up in Augusta,

Georgia. I live in Savannah, GA. now. I've never met Paul though. (smile)

 

----------

> From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: Jason and  Jerry Newman

> Date: Saturday, September 20, 1997 12:53 AM

> 

> Hi Jason,

> 

>         Any relation to the great jazz recordist, Jerry Newman? He was a

> friend of Jack Kerouac's and recorded extensively in the important

pre-bop

> and bebop clubs of Harlem.

> 

>                 Antoine

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:28:34 +0000

Reply-To:     letabor@cruzio.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <letabor@mail.cruzio.com>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Death stalking around my door/long/true/personal

 

Hi Bentz,

 

Seems like I have returned to my old ways of being a weekend beatnik.

It is good to see all the support, and real understanding that is

reaching out from our list. I also have seen quite a lot of people

dying all around me at one time in my life. That was very very long

ago and in a situation that lasted four years I have experienced and

seen much adjustment to it. One of my ways of dealing with it ended

up by realizing that we are all here for a very short time, we will

leave the scene in no time, even if we stretch it a bit more or

less.Never any reason not to enjoy it as much as we can or feel

responsible for the others who depend on us. Still it is difficult for us to

 lose people we are close to,

and it does pull us away for awhile from being too intensely involved

in our immediate entanglements. I have also seen how easy it is for

difficulties to wear more heavily upon our shoulders. By and latge

though I feel that my life has been much more mature, in my judgement

of it, having to incorporate lives that were close and gone from the

scene into my considerations of my own life. I hope that the

burdensome feelings are easing upon you.

 

What I want to tell you about is the fact that I too was a bad guy,

locked up on death row of the big house in Columbia South Carolina,

for four months before trial, and then I was for twenty one or

twenty-three months, I don't remember exactly anymore, this was

between 1970 and 1973 or 1974, in the hole. Actually I dont think I

was such a bad guy at all, my offense was in teaming up with the

Rastafarians in Jamaica who wanted to storm Babylon with Ganja. I was

caught sitting in a U-Haul truck that contained a ton of Marijuana in

Beaufort South Carolina. That made me public enemy number one in

South Carolina at that time. We wre in a community here in Santa Cruz

County and got the idea to buy a piece of land that we had our eyes

on. I got to watch it because there are so many digressions that can

carry me off on side trips.

 

What I want to tell you about is that on death row one day

through a duct by the naked lamp a stick pushed through with a note

taped to it. It was from my neighbor from the other side of the cell

block. He was asking for a cigarette. For the time that I was there

he was the only fellow convict that I had regular communication with.

He was there for having killed two young hippie type girls. His

defense was that he was under the influence of acid. That put my

world on notice big time. Especially since I had just received in the

mail glued on a greeting card several doses of window panes. I can

tell about that now because this method of smuggling acid into the

prisons has been discovered long, long ago.  It turned out that it was

 not true, he had killed before, and this was the best defense that he could

 come up with in those hysterical

times. Maybe it is not all that much in common, still I can relate to

having known a murderer in the big house in Columbia, South Carolina.

I am doing just fine. All these experiences were very tough to live

through, but have left me stronger rather than weaker in time.

 

We live and learn from death and life.

 

Best wishes

 

leon

 

Leon Tabory

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:17:59 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Re: MoonFestival

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Leon wrote:

 

> This may be a trivial point, but I do feel that there is here an issue that

>is important. Reminds me of when I was put in jail because a leader of a

>church declared us a public nuisance because we wre playing rock and roll

>loudly. In fact none of the people who lived in the neighborhood objected,

>and we never played when the church had any functions going on, but they

>thought that it was a rowdy thing to do. We actually were quite inspired by

>the full voiced sounds of our music.

> 

>I know you are not calling my howling at the moon a public nuisance, and

>probably mean no offense, but since you do feel it enough to suggest that

>the moon dislikes howling, and prefers your waving shyly, you are kind of

>suggesting that my attitudes are disrespectful and not quite acceptable.

> 

>My feeling for howling at the moon comes from childhood days when I heard

>the wolves beautiful howls in our neighboring forests. The moon didn't seem

>to mind at all, or blush, and I still remember the acknowledgment that

>filled the vast forests with a haunting beauty. Nor do I believe that anyone

>got moon deafness from howling at the moon.

> 

>In fact I thought when group around a bonfire on the beach began howling

>that it was quite a beautiful thing. I even tried to imagine groups around

>the globe doing it. Would omming be more acceptable to you? I would not like

>to disturb you or anyone, but there are plenty of places where our full

>throttled sound can do wonders for us.

> 

>I have no objections to your preferences as a suitor of the spirit that you

>imagine the moon prefers.

>You should be carefull about hurting your eyes though.

> 

>I believe that  Yan's poetic idea is not only a very beautiful one, but that

>it is also a very powerful one. Its power is especially in us everywhere

>expressing our harmonious feelings in the huge variety of ways that we find

>congenial to ourselves, not in judging our understanding to be more correct

>than that of others.

> 

>Leon

> 

> 

>>On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Leon Tabory wrote:

>>> Howling at the moon

>> 

>>The moon is a quiet spirit.

>>Must get tired of all that howling.

>>I wave, shyly.

>>Once I looked through the telescope eyepiece so long

>>I got moon blindness.

>>  Michael R. Brown

 

10 years ago I wrote:

 

"His Response To Questions Eternal"

 

With food settling in the stomach

wine bottles draining low

conversation turned toward religion

questions of why we were here.

 

He filled his glass

left friends inside

walked out under the stars

saw Scorpio hanging low over the bog

turned westward

then howled at the waxing moon.

 

>From the chapbook "Drinking Wine, Chanting Poems"

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:27:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg (was Re: something to SPI

 

Dear Sean,

Interesting that you spotted the last lines left out of the Selected Poems

version.  It was intended, just bad proof-reading and in later printings it

should be corrected.  Too bad because its one of his best later poems.

Yours,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:52:32 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Magda de Cristofaro.

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A41.3.96.970919093742.107118A-100000@kitts.u.arizona. edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Cari beats,

excuse me,

 

in previous post i've made a mistake asserting that Fernanda

Pivano translated in italian "On The Road", instead she wrote

the foreword.

 

The italian translator of Jack Kerouac's "On the Road" ("Sulla strada")

is Magda de Cristofaro (1959).

She translated a lot of JK's works, i enumerate:

"On the Road"(1957)             -> "Sulla strada" (1959)

"The Dharma Bums" (1958)        -> "I Vagabondi del Dharma" (1961)

"Doctor Sax" (1959)             -> "Il dottor Sax" (1968)

"Visions of Gerard" (1963)      -> "Visioni di Gerard" (1980)

"Desolation Angels" (1965)      -> "Angeli di desolazione" (1983)

 

thanks

Rinaldo.        * not a qualified beat *

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:56:04 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      (fwd) La Loca.

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A41.3.96.970919093742.107118A-100000@kitts.u.arizona. edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Return-Path: <dschwarm@sun1.lib.uci.edu>

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:46:08 -0700 (PDT)

From: David Schwarm <dschwarm@sun1.lib.uci.edu>

To: Rinaldo Rasa <rasa@gpnet.it>

Subject: Re: La Loca

 

> someone has notice of the beat poetess La Loca,

 

Hey!  Yeah, what happened to La Loca?

 

I remember a reading of hers I attended in 1989 in Santa Monica that was

totally fantastic.  She had just published her collection for city lights

 _Adventures on the Isle of Adolescence_ (pocket poets series no 46) -

and she read the entire thing, cover to cover.  When she got to the final

lines of 'The Mayan' a friggen riot practically broke out!  People jumping

around screaming, clapping wildly, total mayhem...Fantastic stuff:

 

        and from that day to this

        although I've had to serve

        in many prisons

        I'm free

        beneath the world

        in love.

 

I still can hear these lines!  Is she still doing readings?

 

-*-

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:41:35 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      howling at the moon

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i'll howl with you anytime, leon.

i love the sound of wolves coyotes, all howling in synchonicity, howl

questions howl answers

howl with allen, how to allen's spirit in the moon.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:55:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Whiteley <ai763@HWCN.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Comments: To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19970920011531.26f78836@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

In regards to the Keanu Reeves portrayal in "the last time I committed

suicide" there are two scenes which make me think the Keanu character is

not Jack Kerouac.  I saw the film a while ago so please forgive me for not

remembering certain names.  The first reason came when he was offered a

job while he was eating dinner with his girlfriend(the one who tried to

commit suicide.  I don't remember the character's name but the actress is

Claire Forlani.) and her two friends.  When the man offered the job to

Neal he asked how old Neal was.  His response should give a definite time

line.  Neal first met Jack in 1946 in New York.  I think the movie was

suppose to take place either in 1944 or 1945.  The second reason is when

the Keanu character and Neal are at a bar drinking and the Keanu character

is trying to persuade Neal to call "cherry Mary"  Once again the subject

of age is brought up and I think Neal said the Keanu character was

thirty-three.  Although I don't think the Jack was portrayed in this film

I do think the director/writer did use his artistic license in trying to

make Keanu "Kerouacesque" as much as possible, just as he did with the

character who shared a suit with Neal.  That character was closer to Allen

Ginsberg than Keanu Reeves was to Kerouac.

 

Warmest Regards,

 

Bob Whiteley

 

 

On Sat, 20 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

 

> At 10:38 PM 9/19/97 -0000, you wrote:

> >Mike,

> >

> >        No, no, no. . .  Reeves was not portraying Kerouac.  The entire

> movie was

> >based on a letter from Neal TO Jack. . .  how then would Jack be in the

> >movie?  Why would Neal write a letter to Kerouac explaining to him the

> >events that he had a been a party to?

> >        The character's name bore no resemblance to Jack Kerouac and if I

> recall

> >correctly, the character was supposed to be about ten years older than

> >Neal.  I certainly don't claim to be a Kerouackian expert, but there's no

> >way that anyone should mistake the Keanu Reeves character for Jack Kerouac.

> > The guy had absolutely no personality, no drive for life, no gusto,

> >nothing but playing pool in shitty little pub. . . and his damn egg nog. .

> >.  Jack drank wine, not egg nog.

> >

> >Bruce

> >bwhartmanjr@iname.com

> >http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

> >

> 

> Was Neal called Neal?  I don't remember, and I don't really care

> what anyone was called, and I don't care if the letter was

> based on a letter Jack wrote, though it is not my sense that

> the letter was from Jack.  I know what the film was about, it

> was mostly about Neal, but it was sprinkled with a little manque

> Jack.  As for the covering of the Keanu character.  They can't use

> a Jack character without the permission of the Heirs.  Cassady is

> so little known by mainstream folks that they would HAVE TO HAVE

> a more recognized member of the Beats to even put this story on

> the screen.  That member is Kerouac, and Reeves plays him, just as

> a little seasoning in a story about Neal.

> 

> Mike Rice

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:11:41 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

thanks, eric i needed the claification. words out of context via computer

are often the beginnings of misunderstandings so easily clarified in real

time/life face to face discussions.'

mc

 

Eric Macy wrote:

 

> I think you missed the point of my post about the feelings toward

> Burroughs in Indianapolis.  When I brought up Burroughs' death to my

> parents, my family and any acquaintances - even some strangers - their

> reaction was either indignant or in the manner of a passing fancy at

> Burroughs' death.  It was a feeling of "Good riddance" that I

> encountered.  I admit my complicity in promoting this strain of virus by

> not trying to comprehend Burroughs' work, but I certainly do not feel he

> had an ill effect on the community or anything like that - like those

> who revile him around me do.  For proof, I had a man stop me in a

> bookstore the other day after noticing I was perusing "The Yage

> Letters."  He asked me how I read "That Burroughs crap."  That's what I

> encounter, and that's what I report from my neck of the woods.

> I don't happen to agree with that public opinion and spend many hours

> trying to cut through to the core of his work - albeit unsuccessfully.

> That's where I stand.

> 

> Eric Macy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:55:57 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Mike Rice wrote:

 

> Was Neal called Neal?  I don't remember, and I don't really care

> what anyone was called, and I don't care if the letter was

> based on a letter Jack wrote, though it is not my sense that

> the letter was from Jack.  I know what the film was about, it

> was mostly about Neal, but it was sprinkled with a little manque

> Jack.  As for the covering of the Keanu character.  They can't use

> a Jack character without the permission of the Heirs.  Cassady is

> so little known by mainstream folks that they would HAVE TO HAVE

> a more recognized member of the Beats to even put this story on

> the screen.  That member is Kerouac, and Reeves plays him, just as

> a little seasoning in a story about Neal.

 

I have never seen the film in question but I am curious about your

assumption "They can't use a Jack character without permission from the

heirs."  From what I gather from the postings about this movie it was

obviously a screenplay and not a documentary with actual footage of Jack

or Neal.  There is nothing that can stop a writer from writing a

screenplay or a work of fiction about anybody or anything.  In fact one

could even write a biography about someone without permission if the

information used was of public record.  The heirs only hold the rights to

use of the person's original materials.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:28:34 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Patriots?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Sherri wrote:

 

 i don't believe that patriotism = full agreement with the

> mainstream or the political machine.

> 

Absolutly right--there are differing visions for America, and being

patriotic isn't limited to supporting only one of these.  Remember the

number of times Ginsberg refers to the history of American

radicalism---the wobblies, Scott Nearing, all the old commies and

lefties.  But very American.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 23:08:30 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      scattered night italian reflexions.

In-Reply-To:  <199709200006.BAA15702@ns.ulisse.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"Wir in the vicinity ay some unsound lookin cats. Some ur

skinheids, some urnae. Some huv Scottish, other English, or

Belfast accents. One guy's goat s Skrewdriver T-shirt oan,

another's likesay wearin an ''Ulster is British'' toap. They start

singing a song aboot Bobby Sands, slaggin him off, likesay.

Ah dunno much aboot politics, but Sands tae me, seemed a brave

dude, likes, whae never killed anybody. Likesay, it must take

courage tae die like that, ken?"---Irvine Welsh, Trainspotting.

 

                        TIMES OF CHANGE.

                        In the 1950's Italians

                        spurned the idea of "fatherland"

                        and nationalism in favor of

                        new political formulas

 

        ...secessionist rumblings

        from Umberto Bossi's anti-Rome,

        anti-tax Northern League...

 

 

                        Dedicated

                                to

                        WALT WHITMAN

 

"Intense and loving comradeship, the persomal and passionate

attachment of man to man - which, hard to define, underlines

the lesson and ideals od the profound saviors of every land

and age, and which seems to promise, when thoroughly developed,

cultivated and recognised in manners and literature, the most

substantial hope and safety of the future of these Sates,

will then be fully exspressed.

        It is to the development, identification, and general

prevalence of that fervid comradeshio, (the adhesive love,

at lest rivaling the amative love hitherto possessing imaginative

literature, if not going beyond it) that I look for the

counterbalance and offset od our materialistic and vulgar

American democracy, and for the spiritualization thereof.

Many will say it is a dream, and will be seen, running like

a half-hid warp through all the myriad audible and visible

worldly interests of america, threads of manly friendship,

fond and loving, pure and sweet, strong and life-long, carried

to degrees hitherto unknown - not only giving tone to individual

character, and making it unprecedentedly emotional, muscular,

heroic, and refined, but having the deepest relations to general

politics. I say democracy infers such loving comradeship, as

its most inevitable twin or counterpart, without which it will

be incomplete, in vain, and incapable of perpetuating itself."

                                        Democratic Vistas, 1871

--- Allen Ginsberg,     THE FALL OF AMERICA

                                poems of these states

                                ...same electric lightning south

                                        follows this train

                                                Apocalypse prophesied-

                                        the fall of america

                                                signalled from Heaven-

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:27:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Chad J Blanchard <ELPUBLICAT@AOL.COM>

Subject:      ESSENCE & LONGING

 

THE POETS AND THE ROMANTICS ARE NOT DEAD--

 

THOSE WHO LONG FOR GOD STILL FIND THEIR WAY--

 

ALL DESIRES ARE NOT THOSE OF THE WICKED, BUT MANY ARE THOSE OF THE LOST, THE

LONELY, THE SEARCHING, THE ABUSED, THE PERSECUTED, THE HOPEFUL, AND THE

RIGHTEOUS.

 

WE ARE THOSE SOULS WHO WILL STRIVE TO FIND GOD'S LIGHT THROUGH THE DARKNESS

OF A DECEPTIVE WORLD; TO CONQUER THE DARKNESS...

 

AND THROUGH THE TRIALS OF LIFE WE WILL FIND THE TRUTH ABOUT THE ESSENCE AND

THE LONGING.

 

 

ESSENCE & LONGING IS A COLLECTION OF 9 PIECES OF LIFE-ENCOMPASSING POETRY BY

CHAD J BLANCHARD, WHICH ARE BASED ON THE EXPERIENCES AND DARK INFULENCES IN

HIS LIFE--THOSE WHICH ALL OF US FACE AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER.

 

THESE WORKS HAVE BEEN COMPILED INTO A BASIC EXE FILE FOR VIEWING.

 

ESSENCE & LONGING IS NOW AVAILABLE FOR $5 EITHER ON DISK OR BY

DOWNLOAD--WHICHEVER YOU PREFER.

 

BELOW IS AN ORDER FORM FOR THIS PUBLICATION WHICH YOU CAN PRINT AND SEND TO

THE ADDRESS ON THE FORM.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

ESSENCE & LONGING PUBLICATIONS

P O BOX 291

ROCKVALE, TN  37153-0291

 

[] PLEASE SEND ME A COPY OF ESSENCE & LONGING ON

   DISK

 

[] PLEASE DOWN LOAD A COPY OF ESSENCE & LONGING

   TO THE FOLLOWING E-MAIL ADDRESS________________

 

 

ENCLOSE PAYMENT OF $5 FOR EACH COPY AND SEND TO THE ADDRESS ABOVE.  (CHECKS,

MONEY ORDERS, AND CASH ACCEPTABLE PAYMENT.)

 

INFORMATION (PLEASE COMPLETE IN CLEAR PRINT)

 

NAME__________________________________________

ADDRESS______________________________________

CITY___________________________________________

STATE_________________________________________

ZIP CODE_______________________________________

E-MAIL_________________________________________

PHONE_________________________________________

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

 

 

 

ORDERS WILL BE SHIPPED PROMPTLY.

 

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, AND FEEL FREE TO E-MAIL ME WITH ANY QUESTIONS YOU

MIGHT HAVE.

 

I CAN ALSO SEND YOU A SAMPLE OR TWO IF YOU WOULD LIKE BEFORE YOU ORDER.

 

1997 ESSENCE & LONGING PUBLICATIONS

ELPUBLICAT@AOL.COM

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 16:55:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: ESSENCE & LONGING

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Chad J Blanchard wrote:

patricia wrote,

looks like spam to me.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 23:49:08 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      update 21sep97 BeatSupernova (Beat:The List)

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A41.3.96.970919093742.107118A-100000@kitts.u.arizona. edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

                        Beat SuperNova

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Willie Loco Alexander

Donald Allen[The Evergreen Review, editor, poet, Grey Fox Press]

Steve Allen[he played piano on some of Kerouac's recordings]

David Amram[helped Jack with some of his first jazz poetry readings]

Mary Beach[Bullettin From Nothing]

Amari Baraka (Leroi Jones)

Wallace Berman[SF avante garde artist]

Stephen Jesse Bernstein[Poet, author, beat, suicide in

1992, Seattle WA USA]

Paul Blackburn { 1926 - 1971 } [contibutor to Black Mountain Review, nyu

and the univ. of wisconsin]

Robin Blaser[poet, critic, associate of Duncan, Spicer]

Richard Brautigan[Change, novelist _Trout Fishing in America_]

Bonnie Bremser[wife of Ray]

Ray Bremser

Chandler Brossard[New York]

Lenny Bruce<img src="brucelen.gif" alt="Lenny Bruce">[comic]

Lord Buckley[comic]

Charles Bukowski{16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"

William S. Burroughs<img src="burrough.jpg" alt="William, when I first met

him in Texas, around 78--Patricia Elliott.">{ 5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997 }

"Bull Hubbard, Frank Carmody, Will Dennison, Old Bull Lee"

William S. Burroughs Jr.[_Kentucky Fried_]

John Cage<img src="cagejohn.gif" alt="John Cage while prepares Medicine

Drawings, 1991.">{ 5 sep 1912 - 12 aug 1992 }[Black Mountain School]

Edgar Cayce

Caleb Carr[Son of Lucien _The Alienist_]

Lucien Carr"Damion"

Paul Carroll

Louis R Cartwright

Carolyn Cassady"Camille"

Neal Cassady{ 8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968 } "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"

Norris Church[wife of Norman Mailer]

Tom Clark[Paris Review]

Andy Clausen

Leonard Cohen[novelist _Beautiful Losers_, songwriter]

Bruce Conner[filmaker]

Gregory Corso<img src="corsogre.gif" alt="Gregory Corso in Venice, S.Marco

Square">"Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"

Robert Creeley[Black Mountain School, poet]

Henry Cru<img src="cruhenry.gif" alt="Henry Cru, 1960.">"Remi Boncoeur"

Jay deFeo[San Francisco Painter, _The Rose_]

Diane DiPrima<img src="diprimad.gif" alt="Diane Di Prima, 1965.">[Floating

Bear, poetess,_Memoirs of a Beatnik_]

John Doe

Kirby Doyle

Edward Dorn[Black Mountain School]

Robert Duncan[Black Mountain School, Experimental Review, SF  poet,

associate, Spicer, Blazer] "Geoffrey Donald"

Bob Dylan

Larry Eigner[Black Mountain School]

Kenward Elmslie[Z]

William Everson (Brother Antoninus){ 1912 - 4 apr 1996}[Poet, Monk]{At UC

Santa Cruz he set up an old hand press and produced wonderful broadsides

and books. My brother inlaw worked with him, as a student. The press sits

waiting for new hands to work the ink, set the letters,stamp words into

handmade paper...--Gary Mex Glazner}

Mary Fabilli[was married with William Everson]

Larry Fagin[Adventures in Poetry]

Richard Farina[novelist _Been Down So Long_, songwriter]

Lawrence Ferlinghetti<img src="ferling.gif" alt="Lawrence

Ferlinghetti">[San Francisco Poetry Reinassance] "Lorenzo Monsanto, Larry

O'Hara, Danny Richman"

Tom Field[Spicer Circle, JK's favorite painter] "Larry Meadows"

Charles Foster

Robert Frank[filmaker]

James Grauerholz<img src="grauerhl.jpg" alt="James Grauerholz">[Burroughs

aid and heir]

Allen Ginsberg<img src="ginsberg.jpg" alt="Allen Ginsberg">{ 3 Jun 1926 - 5

Apr 1997 } "Irwing Garden, Adam Moorad, Alvah Goldbook, Leon Levinsky,

Carlo Marx"

John Giorno

Paul Goodman[psycologist, sociologist, _Growing Up Absurd_]

Robert Gover

Morris Graves

Brion Gysin

Howard Hart[jazz drummer, poet]

Dave Hazelwood[printer of chapbooks , Auerhahn Press]

Wally Hedrick[Gallery Six, husband of Jay DeFeo]

Abbie Hoffman<img src="abbieh.gif" alt="Abbie Hoffman, 1970">[Youth

International Party]

John Clellon Holmes[novelist, _Go_]

Herbert Huncke[guru to Ginsberg, Kerouac, and Burroughs, hustler, _Guilty

of Everything_]

William Inge

Robinson Jeffers

Ted Joans[Jazz Poetry]

Joyce Johnson[wife to JK]

Lenore Kandel[poetess, _The Love Book_  East/West house, "Ramona Schwartz"]

Bob Kaufman{ 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }

John Kelly[Beatitude]

Robert Kelly

Jack Kerouac<img src="kerouac.gif" alt="Jack Kerouac, 1966">{ 12 Mar 1922 -

21 Oct 1969 }

"Jack Duluoz, Leo Percepied, Ray Smith, Jack, Peter Martin, Sal Paradise"

Jan Kerouac[_Baby Driver_]

Ken Kesey[novelist, psychedelic revolutionary]

Franz Kline

Seymour Krim[New York]

Paul Krassner[Realist, satirist]

Art Kunkin[Freep]

Tuli Kupferberg[Birth, The Fugs]

Joanne Kyger[poetess, wife (briefly) G. Snyder, girlfriend, Lew Welch,

East/West house]

La Loca[poetess]{I remember a reading of hers I attended in 1989 in Santa

Monica that was totally fantastic.  She had just published her collection

for city lights _Adventures on the Isle of Adolescence_ (pocket poets

series no 46) - and she read the entire thing, cover to cover.  When she

got to the final lines of 'The Mayan' a friggen riot practically broke out!

 People jumping around screaming, clapping wildly, total mayhem...Fantastic

stuff--David Schwarm}

Philip Lamantia[surrealist poet]

Jay Landesman

Fran Landesman

James Laughlin

Denise Levertov[contibutor to Black Mountain Review]

Timothy Leary<img src="learytim.gif" alt="Timothy Leary, 1985">[chemical

revolutionary]

Lawrence Lipton[The Holy Barbarians]

Ron Loewinsohn[Change]

Gerald Locklin[poet, _The Long Beach Freeway_]

Philomene Long

Malcom Lowry[novelist, Under the Volcano]

Bill MacNeill[Painter, Spicer Circle]

Norman Mailer"Harvey Marker"

Gerard Malanga

Edward Marshall

Peter Martin

Lewis McAdams

Joanna McClure<img src="mcclurej.gif" alt ="Joanna McClure">[wife to

Michael, poetess]

Michael McClure<img src="mcclurem.gif" alt="Michael McClure">[Journal for

the Protection of All Beings, poet] "Pat McLear"

Don McNeill[hippie journalist]

Taylor Mead

David Meltzer

Jack Micheline[SF LA NY poet]

Henry Miller{ 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }

John Montgomery

Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao[City Light Bookstore fixture]

Ken Nordine

Harold Norse

Frank O'Hara[poet, _Hotel Wembley Poems_]

David Ohle<img src="ohledav.gif" alt ="David Ohle in Lousiana">[Burroughs

Circle, _Mortified Man_ _Cows are freaky when they look at you_]

Charles Olson{ 27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970 }[Black Mountain School]

Peter Orlovsky<img src="orlovsky.gif" alt="Peter Orlovsky, 1961.">[wife to

Allen Ginsberg] "George, Simon Darlovsky"

Kenneth Patchen

Thomas Parkinson[Ark, UC Berkeley Prof, Casebook on the Beat]

Claude Pelieu[Bulletin From Nothing]

Nancy Peters[partner with L. Ferlinghetti in City Lights, married to P.

Lamantia]

Stuart Z. Perkoff

Charles Plymell<img src="plymellc.jpg" alt="Charles Plymell">[North Beach,

hobohemian poet, novelist]{Leaving K.C. Mo. past Independence past Liberty

Charlie Plymell's memories of K.C. renewed-- Allen Ginsberg}

Dan Propper

Lou Reed

Kenneth Rexroth{ 22 dic 1905 - 1982 }[Berkeley Reinassance, San Francisco

Reinassance, Six Gallery reading] "Reinhold Cacoethes"

Steve Richmond[introduction for Bukowsky]

Frank Rios

Theodore Roethke

Hugh Romney[Wavey Gravey]

Michael Rumaker

Ed Sanders<img src="sanderse.gif" alt="Ed Sanders">[Peace Eye Bookstore,

The Fugs]

Mark Schorer[UC Berkeley Prof, critic]

Tony Scibella

Hubert Jr. Selby[NY, LA Novelist]

Patti Smith

Gary Snyder[Poet, Reed College group] "Japhy Ryder, Jarry Wagner, Gary Snyder"

Carl Solomon[_with you in Rocklin_, friend Ginsberg's]

Terry Southern[novelist, _Candy_]

Jack Spicer[poet, associate of Duncan, Blazer]

Hunter Stockton Thompson

Charles Upton

Janine Pommy Vega

John Thomas

Mark Tobey

Alexander Trocchi[Living Theatre]

Giuseppe Ungaretti[Circle]

William T. Vollmann<img src="vollmann.gif" alt="William T.

Vollmann">[_Thirteen Stories and Thirteen Epitaphs, Whores for Gloria, You

Bright and Risen Angels, The Atlas_Yesterday's Crash_]

Tom Waits[songwriter, Foreign Affairs]

Anne Waldman[Naropa Institute, St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]

Lewis Warsh

Alan W. Watts[_Beat Zen, Square Zen_] "Arthur Whane, Alex Aums"

Lew Welch (Lewis Barret Welch){ 16 aug 1926 - 23 may 1971 }[_Ring of Bone_,

Reed College Group, East/West House] "Dave Wain"

Philip Whalen[Poet, Reed College Group] "Warren Coughlin, Ben Fagan"

John Wieners[Black Mountain School]

Jonathan Williams

William Carlos Williams{ 17 sep 1883-4 mar 1963 }

Clay Wilson

Ruth Witt-Diamant[San Francisco's Poetry Center]

James Wright[Minnesota]

Louis Zukofsky[Circle]

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 18:40:22 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: update 21sep97 BeatSupernova (Beat:The List)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

rinaldo: you read my thoughts competly! just today while i was mowing

the lawn (when i do my real thinking) i  thought about how cool it

would be to have a little explanation about each beat on your list.

although you did have their alias's earlier, thanks anyway for

keeping up such a cool list.

randy

> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

>                         Beat SuperNova

> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

> Willie Loco Alexander

> Donald Allen[The Evergreen Review, editor, poet, Grey Fox Press]

> Steve Allen[he played piano on some of Kerouac's recordings]

> David Amram[helped Jack with some of his first jazz poetry readings]

> Mary Beach[Bullettin From Nothing]

> Amari Baraka (Leroi Jones)

> Wallace Berman[SF avante garde artist]

> Stephen Jesse Bernstein[Poet, author, beat, suicide in

> 1992, Seattle WA USA]

> Paul Blackburn { 1926 - 1971 } [contibutor to Black Mountain Review, nyu

> and the univ. of wisconsin]

> Robin Blaser[poet, critic, associate of Duncan, Spicer]

> Richard Brautigan[Change, novelist _Trout Fishing in America_]

> Bonnie Bremser[wife of Ray]

> Ray Bremser

> Chandler Brossard[New York]

> Lenny Bruce<img src="brucelen.gif" alt="Lenny Bruce">[comic]

> Lord Buckley[comic]

> Charles Bukowski{16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"

> William S. Burroughs<img src="burrough.jpg" alt="William, when I first met

> him in Texas, around 78--Patricia Elliott.">{ 5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997 }

> "Bull Hubbard, Frank Carmody, Will Dennison, Old Bull Lee"

> William S. Burroughs Jr.[_Kentucky Fried_]

> John Cage<img src="cagejohn.gif" alt="John Cage while prepares Medicine

> Drawings, 1991.">{ 5 sep 1912 - 12 aug 1992 }[Black Mountain School]

> Edgar Cayce

> Caleb Carr[Son of Lucien _The Alienist_]

> Lucien Carr"Damion"

> Paul Carroll

> Louis R Cartwright

> Carolyn Cassady"Camille"

> Neal Cassady{ 8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968 } "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"

> Norris Church[wife of Norman Mailer]

> Tom Clark[Paris Review]

> Andy Clausen

> Leonard Cohen[novelist _Beautiful Losers_, songwriter]

> Bruce Conner[filmaker]

> Gregory Corso<img src="corsogre.gif" alt="Gregory Corso in Venice, S.Marco

> Square">"Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"

> Robert Creeley[Black Mountain School, poet]

> Henry Cru<img src="cruhenry.gif" alt="Henry Cru, 1960.">"Remi Boncoeur"

> Jay deFeo[San Francisco Painter, _The Rose_]

> Diane DiPrima<img src="diprimad.gif" alt="Diane Di Prima, 1965.">[Floating

> Bear, poetess,_Memoirs of a Beatnik_]

> John Doe

> Kirby Doyle

> Edward Dorn[Black Mountain School]

> Robert Duncan[Black Mountain School, Experimental Review, SF  poet,

> associate, Spicer, Blazer] "Geoffrey Donald"

> Bob Dylan

> Larry Eigner[Black Mountain School]

> Kenward Elmslie[Z]

> William Everson (Brother Antoninus){ 1912 - 4 apr 1996}[Poet, Monk]{At UC

> Santa Cruz he set up an old hand press and produced wonderful broadsides

> and books. My brother inlaw worked with him, as a student. The press sits

> waiting for new hands to work the ink, set the letters,stamp words into

> handmade paper...--Gary Mex Glazner}

> Mary Fabilli[was married with William Everson]

> Larry Fagin[Adventures in Poetry]

> Richard Farina[novelist _Been Down So Long_, songwriter]

> Lawrence Ferlinghetti<img src="ferling.gif" alt="Lawrence

> Ferlinghetti">[San Francisco Poetry Reinassance] "Lorenzo Monsanto, Larry

> O'Hara, Danny Richman"

> Tom Field[Spicer Circle, JK's favorite painter] "Larry Meadows"

> Charles Foster

> Robert Frank[filmaker]

> James Grauerholz<img src="grauerhl.jpg" alt="James Grauerholz">[Burroughs

> aid and heir]

> Allen Ginsberg<img src="ginsberg.jpg" alt="Allen Ginsberg">{ 3 Jun 1926 - 5

> Apr 1997 } "Irwing Garden, Adam Moorad, Alvah Goldbook, Leon Levinsky,

> Carlo Marx"

> John Giorno

> Paul Goodman[psycologist, sociologist, _Growing Up Absurd_]

> Robert Gover

> Morris Graves

> Brion Gysin

> Howard Hart[jazz drummer, poet]

> Dave Hazelwood[printer of chapbooks , Auerhahn Press]

> Wally Hedrick[Gallery Six, husband of Jay DeFeo]

> Abbie Hoffman<img src="abbieh.gif" alt="Abbie Hoffman, 1970">[Youth

> International Party]

> John Clellon Holmes[novelist, _Go_]

> Herbert Huncke[guru to Ginsberg, Kerouac, and Burroughs, hustler, _Guilty

> of Everything_]

> William Inge

> Robinson Jeffers

> Ted Joans[Jazz Poetry]

> Joyce Johnson[wife to JK]

> Lenore Kandel[poetess, _The Love Book_  East/West house, "Ramona Schwartz"]

> Bob Kaufman{ 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }

> John Kelly[Beatitude]

> Robert Kelly

> Jack Kerouac<img src="kerouac.gif" alt="Jack Kerouac, 1966">{ 12 Mar 1922 -

> 21 Oct 1969 }

> "Jack Duluoz, Leo Percepied, Ray Smith, Jack, Peter Martin, Sal Paradise"

> Jan Kerouac[_Baby Driver_]

> Ken Kesey[novelist, psychedelic revolutionary]

> Franz Kline

> Seymour Krim[New York]

> Paul Krassner[Realist, satirist]

> Art Kunkin[Freep]

> Tuli Kupferberg[Birth, The Fugs]

> Joanne Kyger[poetess, wife (briefly) G. Snyder, girlfriend, Lew Welch,

> East/West house]

> La Loca[poetess]{I remember a reading of hers I attended in 1989 in Santa

> Monica that was totally fantastic.  She had just published her collection

> for city lights _Adventures on the Isle of Adolescence_ (pocket poets

> series no 46) - and she read the entire thing, cover to cover.  When she

> got to the final lines of 'The Mayan' a friggen riot practically broke out!

>  People jumping around screaming, clapping wildly, total mayhem...Fantastic

> stuff--David Schwarm}

> Philip Lamantia[surrealist poet]

> Jay Landesman

> Fran Landesman

> James Laughlin

> Denise Levertov[contibutor to Black Mountain Review]

> Timothy Leary<img src="learytim.gif" alt="Timothy Leary, 1985">[chemical

> revolutionary]

> Lawrence Lipton[The Holy Barbarians]

> Ron Loewinsohn[Change]

> Gerald Locklin[poet, _The Long Beach Freeway_]

> Philomene Long

> Malcom Lowry[novelist, Under the Volcano]

> Bill MacNeill[Painter, Spicer Circle]

> Norman Mailer"Harvey Marker"

> Gerard Malanga

> Edward Marshall

> Peter Martin

> Lewis McAdams

> Joanna McClure<img src="mcclurej.gif" alt ="Joanna McClure">[wife to

> Michael, poetess]

> Michael McClure<img src="mcclurem.gif" alt="Michael McClure">[Journal for

> the Protection of All Beings, poet] "Pat McLear"

> Don McNeill[hippie journalist]

> Taylor Mead

> David Meltzer

> Jack Micheline[SF LA NY poet]

> Henry Miller{ 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }

> John Montgomery

> Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao[City Light Bookstore fixture]

> Ken Nordine

> Harold Norse

> Frank O'Hara[poet, _Hotel Wembley Poems_]

> David Ohle<img src="ohledav.gif" alt ="David Ohle in Lousiana">[Burroughs

> Circle, _Mortified Man_ _Cows are freaky when they look at you_]

> Charles Olson{ 27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970 }[Black Mountain School]

> Peter Orlovsky<img src="orlovsky.gif" alt="Peter Orlovsky, 1961.">[wife to

> Allen Ginsberg] "George, Simon Darlovsky"

> Kenneth Patchen

> Thomas Parkinson[Ark, UC Berkeley Prof, Casebook on the Beat]

> Claude Pelieu[Bulletin From Nothing]

> Nancy Peters[partner with L. Ferlinghetti in City Lights, married to P.

> Lamantia]

> Stuart Z. Perkoff

> Charles Plymell<img src="plymellc.jpg" alt="Charles Plymell">[North Beach,

> hobohemian poet, novelist]{Leaving K.C. Mo. past Independence past Liberty

> Charlie Plymell's memories of K.C. renewed-- Allen Ginsberg}

> Dan Propper

> Lou Reed

> Kenneth Rexroth{ 22 dic 1905 - 1982 }[Berkeley Reinassance, San Francisco

> Reinassance, Six Gallery reading] "Reinhold Cacoethes"

> Steve Richmond[introduction for Bukowsky]

> Frank Rios

> Theodore Roethke

> Hugh Romney[Wavey Gravey]

> Michael Rumaker

> Ed Sanders<img src="sanderse.gif" alt="Ed Sanders">[Peace Eye Bookstore,

> The Fugs]

> Mark Schorer[UC Berkeley Prof, critic]

> Tony Scibella

> Hubert Jr. Selby[NY, LA Novelist]

> Patti Smith

> Gary Snyder[Poet, Reed College group] "Japhy Ryder, Jarry Wagner, Gary Snyder"

> Carl Solomon[_with you in Rocklin_, friend Ginsberg's]

> Terry Southern[novelist, _Candy_]

> Jack Spicer[poet, associate of Duncan, Blazer]

> Hunter Stockton Thompson

> Charles Upton

> Janine Pommy Vega

> John Thomas

> Mark Tobey

> Alexander Trocchi[Living Theatre]

> Giuseppe Ungaretti[Circle]

> William T. Vollmann<img src="vollmann.gif" alt="William T.

> Vollmann">[_Thirteen Stories and Thirteen Epitaphs, Whores for Gloria, You

> Bright and Risen Angels, The Atlas_Yesterday's Crash_]

> Tom Waits[songwriter, Foreign Affairs]

> Anne Waldman[Naropa Institute, St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]

> Lewis Warsh

> Alan W. Watts[_Beat Zen, Square Zen_] "Arthur Whane, Alex Aums"

> Lew Welch (Lewis Barret Welch){ 16 aug 1926 - 23 may 1971 }[_Ring of Bone_,

> Reed College Group, East/West House] "Dave Wain"

> Philip Whalen[Poet, Reed College Group] "Warren Coughlin, Ben Fagan"

> John Wieners[Black Mountain School]

> Jonathan Williams

> William Carlos Williams{ 17 sep 1883-4 mar 1963 }

> Clay Wilson

> Ruth Witt-Diamant[San Francisco's Poetry Center]

> James Wright[Minnesota]

> Louis Zukofsky[Circle]

> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

> http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm

> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

> 

> 

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 21:42:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Kerouac and Buddhism..

Comments: To: randyr@southeast.net

In-Reply-To:  <199709202234.SAA21866@mailhub.southeast.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

There is a great Burroughs quote in Joyce Johnson's intro to "Desolation

Angels" (which I just started), which perfectly expresses his cynicism

abut Kerouac's obsession with Buddhism.  Burroughs knew Kerouac well

enough to know that he could never turn his back on his catholic roots:

 

"A man who uses Buddhism, or any other instrument to remove love from his

being in order to avoid suffering, has committed, in my mind, a

sacriledge comparable to castration"  WSB

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:02:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:55 AM 9/20/97 -0700, you wrote:

>> Mike Rice wrote:

> 

>> Was Neal called Neal?  I don't remember, and I don't really care

>> what anyone was called, and I don't care if the letter was

>> based on a letter Jack wrote, though it is not my sense that

>> the letter was from Jack.  I know what the film was about, it

>> was mostly about Neal, but it was sprinkled with a little manque

>> Jack.  As for the covering of the Keanu character.  They can't use

>> a Jack character without the permission of the Heirs.  Cassady is

>> so little known by mainstream folks that they would HAVE TO HAVE

>> a more recognized member of the Beats to even put this story on

>> the screen.  That member is Kerouac, and Reeves plays him, just as

>> a little seasoning in a story about Neal.

> 

>I have never seen the film in question but I am curious about your

>assumption "They can't use a Jack character without permission from the

>heirs."  From what I gather from the postings about this movie it was

>obviously a screenplay and not a documentary with actual footage of Jack

>or Neal.  There is nothing that can stop a writer from writing a

>screenplay or a work of fiction about anybody or anything.  In fact one

>could even write a biography about someone without permission if the

>information used was of public record.  The heirs only hold the rights to

>use of the person's original materials.

>DC

> 

> 

If the producers of a film characterize someone in a way that

endangers Jack's heritage or intellectual property, they can

be sued.  That is why producers often seek the cooperation of

public figures and even their survivors.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:02:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: ESSENCE & LONGING

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Spam thru the Beat Group, how crude.  About a year ago,

I ran a footrace at McGregor, Iowa.  There was an old guy

there (most people from Iowa are old, I'm not kidding, go

there and you'll see) wearing a hat with Spam written on

it.  He was some kind of a fanatic about it.  He had toured

the plant in Austin, Minnesota, and went to a Spam festival

somewhere.  Apparently it was some kind of a company public

relations attempt at turning back the tide of bad pr for the

lunchmeat.  They just got done dealing with the aftermath of

World War 11, and along comes this whole internet thing.

 

Mike Rice

 

At 04:55 PM 9/20/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Chad J Blanchard wrote:

>patricia wrote,

>looks like spam to me.

>p

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:12:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: backSPIN

 

In a message dated 97-09-19 17:19:30 EDT, Sherri wrote:

<< 

 thanks for the forward.  great letter from Barry!!  i wonder if/when

 objectivity will return to journalism?

 

 ciao,

 sherri >>

 

Welcome back, Sherri.

 

I know what you mean when you say this, but I have to differentiate between

publications where journalism is actually practiced and the majority of

publications available for sale today.

 

Journalists who are serious about the profession (and there are many working

today) are objective. They also voluntarily adhere to a code of ethics and

know the difference between telling and "spinning" a story.

 

The demand for infotainment and advertorials, coupled with some weird trend

that has brought journalists out from behind the byline and into seats of

public comment and opinion, has resulted in a pandemic of yellow journalism,

although even that is too good a term for it. Dennis Cooper is not a

journalist, and I daresay a review of the editorial board of SPIN, Rolling

Stone, People, the New Yorker, and most popular media today would turn up no

journalists whatsoever.

 

I'm reminded of the George Will "obit" of Allen Ginsberg following the poet's

death, which was much less sympathetic than this piece on Burroughs. What

Will advanced was not journalism, either. It was the power of the bully

pulpit, wielded by some incredible egomaniac with an obvious inferiority

complex and right-wing sentimentalities. And yet, it was offered for sale to

newspapers--journalistic vehicles--all across America, and passed on to the

consumer of the Op-Ed page.

 

It's not so much that objectivity needs to return to journalism. It's that we

as consumers need to realize the difference between people with agendae,

bankrolls and an editorial agenda they want to advance and true journalism,

which is fast becoming a lost art.

 

Just because it's in a newspaper or magazine doesn't mean it's journalism.

Usually, it's not.

                                                            --30--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 06:15:01 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: backSPIN

 

thanks, Diane.  what you say is quite true.  but most of this garbage goes

under the guise of journalism.  and there are "serious" journalists, who seem

to have stepped into the sensationalist mire, that lends an air of legitimate

journalism to fluff and "grab-the $$" tripe.

 

sadly, the general public seems to have long ago lost the ability to think for

itself, the only way its tastes will be changed, i fear, is if it's lead by

the nose to some reality and objectivity - assuming that's possible.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 03:51:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: backSPIN

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The George Will piece was very interesting, if you ask me.

Will's views on the counter-culture reveal an envy, the kind

of envy you see from someone who was unable to participate in

the events described.  Will's underside has been on view for

years.  He hates baby-boomers, haight-ashbury, anything that isn't

traditional or white tie.  In a word, George is a square.  He embraces

Baseball, Reagan, Literature's Great Canon and all the other eternal

verities.  His subtext is much more interesting than his surface.

Keep reading him, he's jealous!  He's also a great example of what

noone should want to be.

 

Mike Rice

 

At 01:12 AM 9/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-09-19 17:19:30 EDT, Sherri wrote:

><< 

> thanks for the forward.  great letter from Barry!!  i wonder if/when

> objectivity will return to journalism?

> 

> ciao,

> sherri >>

> 

>Welcome back, Sherri.

> 

>I know what you mean when you say this, but I have to differentiate between

>publications where journalism is actually practiced and the majority of

>publications available for sale today.

> 

>Journalists who are serious about the profession (and there are many working

>today) are objective. They also voluntarily adhere to a code of ethics and

>know the difference between telling and "spinning" a story.

> 

>The demand for infotainment and advertorials, coupled with some weird trend

>that has brought journalists out from behind the byline and into seats of

>public comment and opinion, has resulted in a pandemic of yellow journalism,

>although even that is too good a term for it. Dennis Cooper is not a

>journalist, and I daresay a review of the editorial board of SPIN, Rolling

>Stone, People, the New Yorker, and most popular media today would turn up no

>journalists whatsoever.

> 

>I'm reminded of the George Will "obit" of Allen Ginsberg following the poet's

>death, which was much less sympathetic than this piece on Burroughs. What

>Will advanced was not journalism, either. It was the power of the bully

>pulpit, wielded by some incredible egomaniac with an obvious inferiority

>complex and right-wing sentimentalities. And yet, it was offered for sale to

>newspapers--journalistic vehicles--all across America, and passed on to the

>consumer of the Op-Ed page.

> 

>It's not so much that objectivity needs to return to journalism. It's that we

>as consumers need to realize the difference between people with agendae,

>bankrolls and an editorial agenda they want to advance and true journalism,

>which is fast becoming a lost art.

> 

>Just because it's in a newspaper or magazine doesn't mean it's journalism.

>Usually, it's not.

>                                                            --30--

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 04:16:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: backSPIN

 

In a message dated 97-09-21 02:14:47 EDT, you write:

 

<< but most of this garbage goes under the guise of journalism.  and there

are "serious" journalists, who seem to have stepped into the sensationalist

mire, that lends an air of legitimate journalism to fluff and "grab-the $$"

tripe. >>

 

I think it's my civic responsibility (huh? wot's that?) to strip away the

guise, always.

 

And any "serious" journalist who steps into the sensationalist mire has lost

his/her credentials. Period.

 

That mire is Never-Never Land. That is the place where, once tainted, one can

never return from. Harder than becoming a virgin all over again.

 

Just my hard-headed, no bullshit, I'll-fight-anyone-who-poses point of view.

 

diane <--- sleeps under newspapers because she likes it....

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 03:14:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      the flames

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

testing post

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:28:38 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         DuarteMoniz <DuarteMoniz@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>

Subject:      Re: Mime format

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> As most of you on the list have noticed, mime format and photographs

> do

> not travel well on Beat-l.  It might be better to mount such files on

> a

> web page and provide listmembers with the url so t hat they can

> download

> them to their hard drives and read them with their browers.

 

 

Can't agree with you. It may desencourage people to send photos and

photos are great to see and rest awhile from all the texts. It was very

nice to see some of you some time back.I also appreciate the posts with

full articles that appear in the US media concerning the beats. It's the

 

only way we (not residents in the USA) can have access to those prints.

I am enjoying very much  being with you all, althought you didn't notice

my presence up until now.

 

Duarte Moniz

Portugal

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:16:44 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: HOW TO SING THE BLUES (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

couldn't resist sending along this piece of spamedhumor: it's not jazz but i do

believe that even  beats gets the blues:

 

 

> >>

> >>     (attrib. to Memphis Earlene Gray with help from Uncle Plunky)

> >>

> >>   1. Most blues begin "woke up this morning."

> >>

> >>   2. "I got a good woman" is a bad way to begin the blues, unless you

> >>      stick something nasty in the next line.

> >>

> >>          I got a good woman--

> >>          with the meanest dog in town.

> >>

> >>   3. Blues are simple.  After you have the first line right, repeat it.

> >>      Then find something that rhymes.  Sort of.

> >>

> >>          Got a good woman

> >>          with the meanest dog in town.

> >>          He got teeth like Margaret Thatcher

> >>          and he weighs about 500 pounds.

> >>

> >>   4. The blues are not about limitless choice.

> >>

> >>   5. Blues cars are Chevies and Cadillacs.  Other acceptable blues

> >>      transportation is Greyhound bus or a southbound train.  Walkin'

> >>      plays a major part in the blues lifestyle.  So does fixin' to die.

> >>

> >>   6. Teenagers can't sing the blues.  Adults sing the blues.  Blues

> >>      adulthood means old enough to get the electric chair if you shoot a

> >>      man in Memphis.

> >>

> >>   7. You can have the blues in New York City, but not in Brooklyn or

> >>      Queens.  Hard times in Vermont or North Dakota are just a

> >>      depression.  Chicago, St.  Louis and Kansas City are still the best

> >>      places to have the blues.

> >>

> >>   8. The following colors do not belong in the blues:

> >>          a. violet

> >>          b. beige

> >>          c. mauve

> >>

> >>   9. You can't have the blues in an office or a shopping mall, the

> >>      lighting is wrong.

> >>

> >>  10. Good places for the Blues:

> >>          a. the highway

> >>          b. the jailhouse

> >>          c. the empty bed

> >>

> >>      Bad places:

> >>          a. Ashrams

> >>          b. Gallery openings

> >>          c. weekend in the Hamptons

> >>

> >>  11. No one will believe it's the blues if you wear a suit, unless you

> >>      happen to be an old black man.

> >>

> >>  12. Do you have the right to sing the blues?

> >>      Yes, if:

> >>          a. your first name is a southern state -- like Georgia

> >>          b. you're blind

> >>          c. you shot a man in Memphis.

> >>          d. you can't be satisfied.

> >>

> >>     No, if:

> >>          a. you were once blind but now can see.

> >>          b. you're deaf

> >>          c. you have a trust fund.

> >>

> >>  13. Neither Julio Iglesias nor Barbra Streisand can sing the blues.

> >>

> >>  14. If you ask for water and baby gives you gasoline, it's the blues.

> >>      Other blues beverages are:

> >>          a. Wine

> >>          b. Irish whiskey

> >>          c. Muddy water

> >>

> >>      Blues beverages are NOT:

> >>          a. Any mixed drink

> >>          b. Any wine kosher for Passover

> >>          c. Yoo Hoo (all flavors)

> >>

> >>  15. If it occurs in a cheap motel or a shotgun shack, it's blues death.

> >>      Stabbed in the back by a jealous lover is a blues way to die.  So

> >>      is the electric chair, substance abuse, or being denied treatment in

> >>      an emergency room.  It is not a blues death, if you die during a

> >>      liposuction treatment.

> >>

> >>  16. Some Blues names for Women

> >>          a. Sadie

> >>          b. Big Mama

> >>          c. Bessie

> >>

> >>  17. Some Blues Names for Men

> >>          a. Joe

> >>          b. Willie

> >>          c. Little Willie

> >>          d. Lightning

> >>

> >>      Persons with names like Sierra or Sequoia will not be permitted to

> >>      sing the blues no matter how many men they shoot in Memphis.

> >>

> >>  17B. Other Blues Names (Starter Kit)

> >>          a. Name of Physical infirmity (Blind, Cripple, Asthmatic)

> >>          b. First name (see above) or name of fruit (Lemon, Lime, Kiwi)

> >>          c. Last Name of President (Jefferson, Johnson, Fillmore, etc.)

> >>

> >>          Mix and Match

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:10:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      bardo  message

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

All week  long I didn't want to go.  I felt swept with anxiety and

decided about 7 times I wouldn't go.  James, who never calls me, called

me around 1:PM and said he was just checking in to make sure I knew to

come.  Bob, John Myers, Lena and I drove out to Wayne Propst's farm for

the bardo around six.  Wayne was a close and dear friend to William and

an old and dear friend to me.  Wayne is a mad scientist, ingenious with

all things mechanical.   I made a pasta salad and John Myers  took a six

pack..

        Wayne and his family  lives on lush river front land, lots of

outbuildings, scene of hundreds of experiments and gatherings.  William

really never missed Wayne's  parties. Lena heard at school from a

friend, who was also going to the bardo, that Wayne might blow something

up.  The excitement builds when Wayne is involved. Wayne place has an

old farm house, many outbuildings, trees,  giant warm barn, his property

runs along the Kansas river. (We call it the Kaw river), beautiful kaw

valley bottoms.

        The bardo is staged to be In front of the barn, in a small  pasture.

The big barn doors open to the pasture, flooding light from one space

into another, in the middle of the pasture there was a massive dome

shaped, heavy wire cage with a wire door way ,   inside lumber,

fireworks, pictures, and pages and pages of things that people brought,

and were bringing.  I guess one hundred and fifty people.  I knew a

hundred of them,   wide varieties of different folks, overwhelming for

me, actually exchanged cards with some kid that does

www.bourroughs.com. ,  prefect weather, light breeze, around 60 degrees.

        Around dusk, standing in front of the barn,  Wayne spoke  (on a nice

speaker system)  then introduced  James, Jim Gauerholz,. Now it is

getting dark, James  reads a farewell to William's soul letter from

Ohle, first by lighter, which of course at one point you heard a little

sound from James\when it got hot , then someone brought forth a kerosene

lantern from the barn, James then read a  note from Bill R. then James

said a few things and then explained some of the Egyptian and Tibetan

Buddhistic relationship in the ceremony, tying  in the significance of

Williams writings in the  "Western Lands" .

        Wayne goes to the dome and lights  the fire and it was glorious, it

grew, it swirled, popped, pulsed, danced. The cage was a dome about 12

feet high and 20 feet across., things like pictures, posters, objects

d'art, and many many papers laid on the lumber but  things and paper

also hang suspended from the cage. Once the fire flowered,  came

Williams voice, reading from Western Lands.  It was perfect, I swear the

fire danced with his voice.  The Cheshire cat had his smile but

William's voice was the most evocative voice.  I got up and went nearer

the fire, strode around the fire ,  circled it three times.  There is

some great music, playing background on the tape of Williams voice, the

fire crackles. Fire works are staged inside the cage with the  boards,

and objects, they go off in layers by heat and highth of the fire, there

is crackers, roman candles, fountains , wild pictures in the fire,

colors shooting out in unpredictable arks.  this fire is a masterpiece.

        Tim Millers's boys and Waynes boy Louie, dart back and forth in front

of the fire, popping little sticks through an opening in the cage door.

Most people sat in chairs and on benches in a large semi circle, music,

flames, love.  I stood up with James and Bill Hatke, the sparks flew

wild.  In the crowd was William's Dentist, Charley Kincaid, (he had been

one of the pall bearers at the Liberty Hall service) and he is the

wildest funniest man with a wonderful good soul.  That guy can distract

you from a root canal with his wit.  Fred Aldridge sat in one chair, He

shot with William  weekly for ten years or more.  Fred is a tall skinny

redhead, I've known him for 30 years. I introduced William to Fred.

William was like a father to Fred's soul.   Fred  is a talented

musician, artist, driven always to some elegant perfection.   There were

the New York suits standing in the barn,   they seemed to be having a

remarkably good time and the most relaxed I had ever seen the suits.  In

the crowd are such a variety of people that I am stunned but recognize

that these were all people that William had built a relationship with

over the 16 years he had made Lawrence his home.  William loved persons

rather than people, and he loved fun. It was a fun and a sober sight to

see the embers chasing to the sky and think that's Williams soul flying

to the western lands.

        I feel when William first died, his spirit was there in the room with

his body, it was comforting. Then I felt his spirit whirling around the

world, I almost know he went to Tangiers for a moment.  I feel he is

gone.  we have lots to do now.

> Patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:40:35 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: backSPIN

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

.  He hates baby-boomers, haight-ashbury, anything that isn't

> traditional or white tie.  In a word, George is a square.  He embraces

> Baseball, Reagan, Literature's Great Canon and all the other eternal

> verities.  His subtext is much more interesting than his surface.

> Keep reading him, he's jealous!  He's also a great example of what

> noone should want to be.

> >

> >

Mike,

 

I think most of what you say about G. Will is true, not sure about

giving you "envy" but the rest of it.  But thank God the world is not

monochromatic.  Will, wrong as he may be, can write and can think well,

even if he is often guilty of sophistry and glibness.  He is useful in

the same way as Buckley is--they should  make one think. To simply

dismiss someone like Will or Buckley because the are "rightwingers" is

no better than it is for Will to dismiss everything someone like

Ginsberg advocates because he was a leftist hippy.

 

I am not at all sure they envy the other side.  Will lives very well.

What makes you think that when he sits in splendor in Georgtown drinking

old and expensive wine,  Will is wishing for the creative squalor of the

Haight?

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 15:42:50 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: backSPIN

 

goodo for you!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:01:57 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: bardo  message

 

Patricia thank you for sharing this.  very moving.  i've never had an

experience like that, but it seems a beautiful way to say good bye.

 

hope you're doing well.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:10:22 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

sorry, my note to patricia was supposed to be backchannel.  didn't mean to

load you mailboxes.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:24:22 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: bardo  message

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

 

IA0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogUGF0cmljaWEgRWxsaW90dCA8

cGVsbGlvdHRAU1VORkxPV0VSLkNPTT4NClRvOiBCRUFULUxAQ1VOWVZNLkNVTlkuRURVIDxCRUFU

LUxAQ1VOWVZNLkNVTlkuRURVPg0KRGF0ZTogU3VuZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMjEsIDE5OTcgODoy

MyBBTQ0KU3ViamVjdDogYmFyZG8gbWVzc2FnZQ0KPHNuaXA+DQogPiB0aGlzIGZpcmUgaXMgYSBt

YXN0ZXJwaWVjZS4NCg0KWW91IGFyZSBuZWFybHkgZGVzY3JpYmluZyB5b3VyIHJlcG9ydCB0byB0

aGUgd29ybGQuIA0KV2hhdCBhbiBpbnNwaXJlZCBpbnNwaXJhdGlvbiEgSSBzaXQgaGVyZSB3aXRo

IG15IGphd3MgZHJvcHBlZC4gV2hhdCBhIGJsZXNzaW5nIG91ciBsaXN0IGlzLiBXaGF0IGEgYmxl

c3NpbmcgeW91IGFyZSB0byB1cyBQYXRyaWNpYS4NCg0KPiAgICAgICAgSSBmZWVsIHdoZW4gV2ls

bGlhbSBmaXJzdCBkaWVkLCBoaXMgc3Bpcml0IHdhcyB0aGVyZSBpbiB0aGUgcm9vbSB3aXRoDQo+

aGlzIGJvZHksIGl0IHdhcyBjb21mb3J0aW5nLiBUaGVuIEkgZmVsdCBoaXMgc3Bpcml0IHdoaXJs

aW5nIGFyb3VuZCB0aGUNCj53b3JsZCwgSSBhbG1vc3Qga25vdyBoZSB3ZW50IHRvIFRhbmdpZXJz

IGZvciBhIG1vbWVudC4gIEkgZmVlbCBoZSBpcw0KPmdvbmUuICB3ZSBoYXZlIGxvdHMgdG8gZG8g

bm93Lg0KPj4gUGF0cmljaWENCj4uLQ0KVGhhbmsgeW91DQoNCmxlb24NCg0K

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:42:54 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: bardo  message

 

Leon - i don't know what's going on - but everything you send to me is coming

out in code!

:-(

 

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:05:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: bardo  message

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

There was something happening on my server. It is supposedly corrected now.

I resent you the letter to you. Did it get there ok? Sorry for the hassle.

Please tell me if you got it ungarbled now. Thanks

 

leon

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sunday, September 21, 1997 9:38 AM

Subject: Re: bardo message

 

 

 

>Leon - i don't know what's going on - but everything you send to me is

coming

>out in code!

>:-(

> 

>sherri

>.-

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:09:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: backSPIN

 

In a message dated 97-09-21 11:45:21 EDT, The honorable James Stauffer wrote:

 

<< Will, wrong as he may be, can write and can think well, even if he is

often guilty of sophistry and glibness.  He is useful in the same way as

Buckley is--they should  make one think. To simply dismiss someone like Will

or Buckley because the are "rightwingers" is no better than it is for Will to

dismiss everything someone like

 Ginsberg advocates because he was a leftist hippy. >>

 

Since I'm the one who applied the "rightwinger" label here, I feel compelled

to clarify the discussion.

 

Will's piece, syndicated by the Washington Post on 9 April 1997, titled "The

Ginsberg Commodity," demonstrated the same sort of skillful propagandizing

and dehumanization practiced by other great communicators (Adolph Hitler, for

one, Rush Limbaugh, for another).

 

I certainly do not dismiss him, although I'd like to. I can't get to that

editorial he wrote anymore via the Internet, and don't know if I have it in

hard copy around here anywhere, but what he said about Ginsberg amounted not

to a critique by a rational person with an opposing point of view, but a

personal attack and diatribe against all who do not think like Will believes

we should. Will is not a journalist; he's an editorialist and an apologist

for the blinders-wearing rightest right wing. He reminds me, frighteningly,

of the McCarthy types who ruled so much of thought (or tried to) in the late

Fifties and early Sixties.

 

And yes, his tone was decidedly envious. I wrote, half-jokingly to a friend,

that in high school, Will probably wasn't asked to step outside and smoke a

joint with the other kids during study hall, and has carried that resentment

ever since. I remember also being impressed with how offended he was at the

size of Ginsberg's obit in the major papers, including, ironically, the

NYTimes. He has a serious case of "obit-envy," and my twisted little

emotional brain was wondering what other issues of size and quantity he might

have lurking in his mind, or parts south.

 

Okay, that was crude. But editorials like Will's are the reason I feel so

motivated to talk about this here, not just to defend Ginsberg, or to

demystify Dennis Cooper. The point is (and Sherri really tried to make it in

the first place) that people don't really realize the difference between

opinion and journalism, and tend to take the media literally and then bemoan

the loss of objectivity in journalism when, in fact, they're being fed a

personal agenda. And George Will, a human being, has demonstrated that he has

a profound agenda and a strong, personal dislike of Allen Ginsberg, as did

Dennis Cooper in his pretend eulogy of WSB.

 

Part of what made the Beats 'beat' was the way they not only looked behind

the curtain, but actually tore the son-of-a-bitch down through their

writings, readings, and lifestyle. Behind the newsprint-and-ink curtain of

today are a whole bunch of egos with personal computers. They are not writing

history. They are not writing fact. They are not journalists. They are people

who have the power of the printing press and can use it any way they wish,

and they are almost never objective.

 

I don't wish to ban George Will or Dennis Cooper from writing. I just need to

say that neither of them is a journalist, nor are they scholars or

historians. They are both just voices, as I am, as you are, but they have the

advantage of appearing legitimate because their opinions are presented for

consumption by hundreds of thousands of people who read them over coffee and

scrambled eggs, and don't always stop to notice how much of what they say is

not only opinion, but revisionistic lying.

 

                                                  --30--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:12:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

Mike,

I don't want to sound pushy or anything, but i really don't think it was

supposed to be Jack, but i'm just taking it from the context of the letter.

So, maybe i'm wrong, but that will change my entire opinion about the movie.

So, was the character "Benjamin" supposed to be Allen? I suspected that the

director threw him in it for fun. Its not that I want to prove you wrong, but

Keanu Reeves as JK, gimme a break, that would be awful. If anyone has any

info. to add about this, i would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

                   ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:25:39 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: bardo  message

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

loud and clear, leon!

mc

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

 

> There was something happening on my server. It is supposedly corrected now.

> I resent you the letter to you. Did it get there ok? Sorry for the hassle.

> Please tell me if you got it ungarbled now. Thanks

> 

> leon

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Date: Sunday, September 21, 1997 9:38 AM

> Subject: Re: bardo message

> 

> >Leon - i don't know what's going on - but everything you send to me is

> coming

> >out in code!

> >:-(

> >

> >sherri

> >.-

> >

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:35:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

Mike, mike, mike,

 

Bruce was right, and the letter was from Neal to Jack. How can you be so

adamant about a movie you hardly remember? It was put on the screen because

the letter was famous. Jack said as a respose to Neal's letter, "I thought it

ranked among the best things ever written in America..." So its very

plausible that a movie would be made from it. And in my humble opinion, Neal

needed no "seasoning" He was the epitimy of spice. Red hot and exploding.

Thanks.

                 ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:36:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      cross post on Kerouac from Dylan

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Here is a cross post from the Dylan group on Kerouac's influence on

Dylan and Angels.

 

ubject:

        Re: Angel

   Date:

        Sat, 20 Sep 1997 23:27:32 -0500

   From:

        John Mulligan & Claire Piper <spirit@TOWNSQR.COM>

_________________________Cross post below ________________________

 

 

My take on Angel, for what it's worth, has always been that the line

simply

refers to one of Bob's hipster friends; in my minds eye a young (as Bob

himself was when he wrote the line) pretty boy. Dylan was hugely

influenced

by the Beats and Kerouac made use of the term angel quite a bit.

remember

Desolation Angels? In this kerouac book Jack and his friends, notably

one

based on poet Gary Snyder, climb and spend time in the Desolation

Mountains.

To Kerouac, his friends the Beats are beatified, hence they are angels,

hence Angel.

 

John Mulligan

spirit@townsqr.com

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:08:26 -0400

Reply-To:     atrigili@lynx.dac.neu.edu

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Organization: Northeastern University

Subject:      Re: backSPIN & envy

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Mike Rice wrote:

> 

> The George Will piece was very interesting, if you ask me.

> Will's views on the counter-culture reveal an envy, the kind

> of envy you see from someone who was unable to participate in

> the events described.

 

I agree:  repressed envy usually simmers around these kind of pieces,

and Will's obit in particular is no exception.

 

Norman Podhoretz confesses this envy himself in his essay I quoted on

the list a few weeks ago, "My War With Allen Ginsberg" (from the August

1997 issue of *Commentary*).  I don't have the piece in front of me, so

can only paraphrase.  Podhoretz admits in the essay that envy helped

fuel his anti-Beat polemics.  Maybe readers of his antagonistic essays

have suspected as much over the years, but these kind of suspicions are

difficult to prove.  As I said a few weeks ago, the essay is worth

reading, if anything for Podhoretz's honesty.

 

Tony

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Yes, I'd swim in coffee if it wasn't too hot.  But

the trouble is, it's too hot.  And expensive."

--Ed Poindexter

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:48:55 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr." <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

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Leon,

 

        I finally took a moment out to read the "Joan Anderson" letter as it is

presented in The Beat Reader.  To me, the movie seemed pretty faithful.

How, exactly, do you think it wasn't?  I'm not trying to be antagonistic,

just curious for your interpretation.

 

always my best to you,

 

 

Bruce

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 05:27:25 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: backSPIN

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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> Diane De Rooy:

> Okay, that was crude. But editorials like Will's are the reason I feel

> so

> motivated to talk about this here, not just to defend Ginsberg, or to

> demystify Dennis Cooper. The point is (and Sherri really tried to make

> it in

> the first place) that people don't really realize the difference

> between

> opinion and journalism, and tend to take the media literally and then

> bemoan

> the loss of objectivity in journalism when, in fact, they're being fed

> a

> personal agenda. And George Will, a human being, has demonstrated that

> he has

> a profound agenda and a strong, personal dislike of Allen Ginsberg, as

> did

> Dennis Cooper in his pretend eulogy of WSB.

 

The point is that there is a big difference between an editorial and an

article.  Dennis Cooper was not out of line in writing a negative

editorial about Burroughs, he was out of line because he didn't get his

facts straight.  If George Will syndicates his editorials and sends them

out across the country, there is also nothing wrong with that, if they

appear as his column. I don't know the creditionals, if any, of either of

these people.  But the fact that they print opinion in an editorial does

not diminish the fact they might be journalists when covering other

stories.  That is the greatness of a free press.  You can say anything

you want to, be it a personal agenda or not.  The opponents of Burroughs

and Ginsberg have just as much right to their opinion as we do to ours.

As you pointed out, the fine line comes when someone reading it doesn't

understand the difference between an editorial and serious journalism

that covers both sides of an issue.  Intelligent, educated people know

the difference.  The fact that masses of people might not know the

difference doesn't mean editorials shouldn't be printed, it means that

those who want the other side to be seen need to be vocal.  They need to

write letters to the editor.  And any newspaper or magazine that is

serious about its intent will print the letters.  It is especially

important now that Ginsberg, Kerouac, and Burroughs are gone, that

through "writings, readings, and lifestyle" we carry on the meaning and

integrity of their works in any way that we can.  That we take the

responsibility to see that there are as many people writing favorable

opinions and articles as there are negative ones.  You can never silence

those that disagree with the voices of the beats and you can never

educate the masses in their ignorance.  All you can do is fight for the

truth in every way you can, and make sure that those with a personal

agenda in ther public media are countered by the other side.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:30:30 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Janine Pommy Vega.

In-Reply-To:  <199709200006.BAA15702@ns.ulisse.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Which Side Are You On?                  by Janine Pommy Vega

 

 

 

 

Where does my anger come from

        at the laziness, the prosaic?

How many times will you enter a room

        and leave it vacant: in and out,

in and out, visiting a temple of possibility

and never leave a gift on the altar?

 

Come down to the river of your own soul, we are

        excavating

here, the yellow helmets you see are so many

suns on the horizon, going down and coming up

in no particular time sequence or order.

When one flower opens, Kabir says,

                ordinarily

dozens open. I'm digressing.

 

Every time you visit yourself without

        respect, you lose. Without love,

Also.

Read the coins you've thrown down into the dirt,

they spell integrity. You recall those

early moments in

your young life when you sang. And we were

        witnesses-- if not then, now. We can

             see you

outside the ordinary, grab onto a miracle and

understand it was no more you than the

     wind.

 

Oh, so that's it, finally:

No more you or me than that mountain

        there. And no mountain either.

 

                Which side are you on?

 

 

 

Eastern Correctional Facility, Napanock, NY, June 6,1996

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:57:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: backSPIN

 

In a message dated 97-09-21 17:19:20 EDT, Diane Carter wrote:

 

<< That is the greatness of a free press.  You can say anything

 you want to, be it a personal agenda or not.  >>

 

You might want to check out The Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual

on this point before making such a broad generalization.

 

I am not talking about stifling a free press or First Amendment rights. I'm

simply making a point that there are many poseurs in the media today who

accidentally or deliberately define "journalism."

 

If you're unclear about my point of view, you can certainly find out more by

studying the publications and websites of voluntary societies journalists

conform to, for the purpose of maintaining objectivity and separating that

from opinion. These include Accuracy in Media, The American Journalism

Review, and the Society for Professional Journalists.

 

There is a grey area here, Diane, and that's the one people always end up

arguing about. When does the right of one person supersede the right of

another?

 

People can write all the negative things they want to all day long, and they

will. But when they try to pass that off as journalism, that is where I draw

the line.

 

Dennis Cooper is a writer and a poet. George Will is a political commentator.

Each of them wrote about a famous dead person after that person's death. Each

of them lied in the course of their writing about their subjects. How many

readers knew that? How many readers thought they were reading something they

assumed was the truth? We're not talking about the National Enquirer here.

We're talking about mainstream publications that are taken seriously by their

markets.

 

That's the beauty--and the downside--of a free press. But please, don't think

I would ever advocate for anything else.

 

Nevertheless, freedom is not license.

 

Curiously, I ran across an interesting bit from a letter in Hunter S.

Thompson's exhaustive archive today that echoes from the past: "Indeed, much

of what Thompson wrote about the profession in a 1958 letter to Editor &

Publisher magazine sounds like a bullseye assessment of journalism's present

state: "For my money, [journalism] has nearly tumbled head over heels in its

hurry to toss away its integrity and compromise with the public taste, the

mass intellect and the self-sighted demands of profit-hungry advertisers . .

. "

 

Pete Rose will never be in the Hall of Fame because he was caught gambling. A

vegetarian who eats a Big Mac is no longer a vegetarian. A reporter who

writes opinion is no journalist.

 

As fascinating as this must be to the 262 consumers of the Beat-L list (more

comic relief), I'm going to bow out of this dialog listwise now. Please feel

free to continue the discussion with me at ddrooy@aol.com.

 

Sincerely,

An "Intelligent, educated, people" who's is "fight[ing] for the truth in

every way [she] can, [to] make sure that those with a personal agenda in ther

public media are countered by the other side,"

 

diane de rooy

 

dig?

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:48:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      patriotism

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Happy last day of summer!

I can't help but feel that the Beats, particularly Ginsberg and Kerouac,

have strong adherence to America. Ginsberg refers to the America, "where

we hug and kiss the United States under our bedsheets, the United States

who coughs all night and won't let us sleep" (Howl, pt. 3). The love is

qualified, but it can hardly be stated more directly. _On the Road_ often

seems like a Valentine to America and its people (other than the

"slopjaws" of Washington and the police). We also need to remember

Kerouac's first meeting with Kesey, where Jack, invited to sit on a

flag-covered sofa, folded up the flag in careful boy-scout fashion.

Perhaps the essence of the conflict here can best be addressed by George

Orwell, in a sadly neglected essay "Notes on Nationalism":

"By 'nationalism' I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human

beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or

tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled 'good' or 'bad.'

But secondly--and this is much more important--I mean the habit of

identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond

good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its

interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words

are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be

challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two

different and even opposing ideas are involved. By 'patriotism' I mean

devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one

believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other

people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and

culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire

for power."

In these terms, the Beats, particularly Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Corso, are

patriotic, but not nationalistic.

Does this make sense?

Cordially,

Michael Skau

9/21/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:45:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Dylan influenced by Kerouac?]

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At 09:50 PM 9/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Here is an interesting post from the Dylan news group, one more to

>follow.

> 

>Peace,

>--

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

> 

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclawPath:

> 

Supernews69!Supernews60!supernews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnpl

ane

> 

t.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsgate.tandem.com!uun

et!

> in3.uu.net!208.206.146.5!news.velocity.net!not-for-mail

>From: "Justin Mando" <jmando@velocity.net>

>Newsgroups: rec.music.dylan

>Subject: Dylan influenced by Kerouac?

>Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:48:07 -0400

>Organization: Velocity.Net

>Message-ID: <5vmu9u$g6r$1@news.velocity.net>

>NNTP-Posting-Host: d25.velocity.net

>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0544.0

>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0

>Xref: Supernews69 rec.music.dylan:93781

> 

>Hello fellow Dylan listeners,

> 

>I was wondering if anyone knows if Dylan was at all influenced by Jack

>Kerouac.  I just finished "On The Road" and it makes me think about Dylan.

>It seems his music was influenced by Kerouac or other "beat" writers such

>as Ginsberg or Burroughs possibly.  If anyone knows an answer to this

>please let me know.  Thanks.  I will leave this with the coolest quote

>ever.

> 

>"The only ones for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad

>to talk, and mad to be saved, the ones who are desirous of everything at

>the same time, the ones that never yawn or says a commonplace thing, but

>burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow Roman candles like spiders across the

>stars and the blue centerlight pops and everybody goes 'Awww!'" --Jack

>Kerouac

> 

> 

>Justin Mando

>jmando@velocity.net

> 

> 

Of course Dylan was influenced by Kerouac.  During the Rolling Thunder

Revue tour of the mid seventies, he was near Lowell and he stopped of at

Jack's grave and held a vigil there and played songs for Jack.

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:11:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      mass suicide postings

 

Question: (since this is one of the recent threads, anyway)

 

when exactly did The Last Time I Commited Suicide come out?  I've been

assuming that it's already available on video, but in the neighborhood

vidoe store tonite I saw a poster hanging underneath the "coming soon"

sign, & the poster was for LTICS, so now I'm confused.  Esp. since I never

remember it ever being in the theatres...I thought this was a past movie,

not recent.  Or is my video store just slow?

 

But I did make sure to check the fine print on the poster where they list

the actors & teh directors, etc, & there it was: "Based on a Letter by Neal

Cassady."  Made me proud to read that.

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia Plath

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:35:23 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: backSPIN

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Diane and Tony,

 

I never like to find myself on the wrong side of an argument with those

I respect, particularly on an issue I don't have a deep feeling about,

but since I am the one that put myself in the rather difficult and not

entirely characteristic position of defending George Will I will make

one more argument on this thread and respectfully let in rest.

 

Both of you and Diane Carter have pointed to the difference between

editorial writing and reporting.  The Spin piece I did not read and from

what I gathered it is at least factually substantially inaccurate.  Will

certainly doesn't even claim to be a reporter but a commentator.  Some

polemic is natural in that role. It's poartly what he's getting paid to

do.  Arouse argument.    Certainly we know enough when reading editorial

comment to know that we are reading an argument rather than a recitation

of facts and to take into account the bias of the writer who is

generally someone whose basic assumptions we already know.  We know what

kind of "spin" to expect and react accordingly. At least that is the way

I think I generally read columnists.  There are people I almost never

agree with but still can't resist reading. Do we really think that the

American reader is so stupid that he believes everything he sees in a

newspaper or magazine.

 

I have only vague memories of Wills piece on AG and thought it was

weaker than usual for him.  Will strongly dislikes AG, I strongly love

him.  But as I remember Will's take it goes something like this.  He

sees Allan as one of those who helped destroy a set of rules, chemical,

sexual, and political that Will sees as fundamental to social order. As

a result of Allan's impact on America he sees social breakdown.  It is

hard to argue that everyone who has followed to some extent that sort of

path that Allan appeared to advocate has escaped without scratch.  The

beat and post beat life path exposes one to real risks.  Our history is

full of madness, overdoses and some damn difficult lives. Living outside

the law ain't easy,  I personally feel that the risk was worth it.  I

took my risks knowingly and for the most part have survived them.  Lots

didn't.  Therefore it doesn't suprise me that for someone who strongly

values an ordered and traditional value structure finds the effect of

Allan on the culture to have been a bad thing.  It is easy for even

those of us who loved the sixties to find aspects of them that are easy

to ridicule.  Does anyone remember Richard Brautigan's buffallo hunt in

Golden Gate Park, for example.  That Will comes down on the side of

order rather than risk doesn't make him a fascist murder of millions

like Hitler or a ranting maniac like Limbaugh.  I am a little amazed,

Diane, that you would make the Hitler analogy for a mild mannered bow

tied nerd like Will.

 

I would also argue that it is possible to not even envy this life

style.  Podherz certainly does admit envy in the piece Tony posted

earlier--but it was primarily envy of Ginsberg's influence, was it not,

rather than the life he lived.  Maybe George wanted to get asked outside

to smoke a joint.  Maybe he didn't.  Are we arguing that everyone would

be a hippy if they had only been invited to join? Or that there are no

other legitimate choices?

 

I think that is what bothers me about this thread.  The assumption that

if someone doesn't like the guys we like they aren't just wrong,  or

have different tastes but lying, envious duplicitous bastards.  It's the

flip side of what the "fascists" are always supposed to be doing--simply

dismissing anything which challenges their assumptions because they

don't like the life style.  Why is calling something "right wing" enough

to make something automatically wrong?  Is "left wing" automatically

right?  That kind of thinking is what got well meaning American leftists

caught in the position defending  Stalin's slaughter of  his own

people.

 

But enough of this before I get called a "fascist ditto head" as I did

during some old Beat-L flame war.  I love you all.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:04:30 -0700

Reply-To:     mike@buchenroth.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@BUCHENROTH.COM>

Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company

Subject:      Re: Janine Pommy Vega.

Comments: cc: rinaldo@gpnet.it

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> Which Side Are You On?                  by Janine Pommy Vega

***

To view a photo of Janine Pommy Vega, Josh Norton, Allen Ginsberg,

Elizabeth Plymell, and Pamela Beach Plymell seated at the Plymell's

dining room table in Cherry Valley, NY go to

 

http://www.buchenroth.com/gnsbpomy.jpg

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:00:11 -0700

Reply-To:     mike@buchenroth.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@BUCHENROTH.COM>

Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Bob Whiteley wrote:

> 

> In regards to the Keanu Reeves portrayal in "the last time I committed

***

In the letter, Neal Cassady writes, "I was almost past this bar when I

glanced up to see my younger blood-brother inside drinking beer alone."

Portable Beat Reader; ed Ann Charters, (Pinguin, 1992), New York, p 201.

and in last paragraph N Cassady writes, "as I drank my last

blood-brother beer ..." (p 208)

***

I have looked in Holy Goof,  First Third, Grace Meets Karma, Off the

Road, the Tom Christopher book, "Neal Cassady, volume One

***

Neal only had older half brothers. His only full sibling and younger

full or half sibling was Shirley Cassady. At bottom of page 201 Cassady

called this blood-brother Bill. So he could refer to Bill Cannastra who

drank abundantly and had head decapitated hanging out train window and

friend of Kerouac, Bill Tomson who introduced Neal to Carolyn for first

time and oftentimes brooded over women and would have felt like Neal

owed him Cherry Mary as Neal had stolen Carolyn from him, Neal's half

brother (oldest) who died May 22, 1936 when family lived on Champa

Street or as some combination or fictional characteras in letter Neal

referred to letter as a story.

Who really knows????

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:17:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Jon B. Pearlstone" <THYE@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Looking forward to participating in group

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit

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Greetings:

 

I just stumbled into the Beat Generation list and I am anxious to exchang=

e

ideas with others who are into the Beats.  In addition to a strong intere=

st

in the works of Kerouac, I also have been strongly influenced by Alan Wat=

ts.

 Although Watts was never included in the official Beat Generation, he

brought the influence of Zen to many major Beat figures and interacted wi=

th

the Beats regularly.  He recently came out with an audio cassette version=

 of

his book:  Zen and the Beat Way that I used as a basis for an "Alternativ=

e

Entrerpeneur" column I write for a business publication. =20

 

I would be very interested in feedback from the group on my column, Watts=

 and

any other views that are on your minds.  Looking forward to hearing from =

you.

 

Here is the column:

 

Time is WHAT?=20

 

 The Beat Way to Entrepreneurism

 

By J  Pearlstone

 

Time is money, right?     While many believe time represents money, most

would be better off defining it as something else.   My personal experien=

ces

and a little American history will help prove my point.=20

 

Last year, I semi-retired at the age of 33,  sacrificing a significant in=

come

for no structure whatsoever.  It was a difficult decision.  However, a ye=

ar

later, I am happier than ever.  I now see my biggest obstacle to happines=

s

was the =93time is money=94 trap.  In essence, this trap is the belief th=

at work

must be endured in exchange for maximum financial gain.

 

Many entrepreneurs are caught in this trap. Are you?  Take the following

brief quiz and find out:

=09

      Question 1           Do you love the work you do each day?

        Question 2         Would you do your job for free?

        .

If your answer to either question is no, welcome to =93the trap=94.  Now,=

 you

might argue that you can love work even though you require compensation f=

or

it.  This argument doesn=92t hold up when you think of other things you l=

ove to

do and take the same quiz.  Not only would most do other activities they =

love

for free--they often pay good money to do them.   =20

 

In my case, once I realized I didn=92t love my job for the sake of the wo=

rk

itself, I decided  to find a more fulfilling use of my time, even if it m=

eant

less income.  In other words--time could no longer be money.  =20

 

 

If time isn=92t money, then what is it? =20

 

 

Like many good questions, there is no easy answer.  It has been hard to

explain my semi-retirement to friends and business associates.  The reaso=

ns I

give usually result in blank stares and comments like, =93Well, good luck=

,

anyway=94.  But, recently I found there are precedents for my feelings.  =

Here=92s

an example:

 

        =93We make a very destructive division between work and play.  We spend =

eight

        hours, or whatever it may be, at work in order to earn the money to enjo=

y

        ourselves in the other eight hours.  And this is a perfectly ridiculous =

way

of  =20

      living.=94

 

        Alan Watts  From Zen and the Beat Way, Tuttle, 1997

 

Before you picture me wearing a Nehru jacket and Birkenstocks, let me cle=

arly

state that I=92m not a Beatnik or a Zen Buddhist.  This quote simply expr=

esses

my feelings accurately. The quote doesn=92t completely answer the questio=

n of

what time is, but it does explain why time should not be money.

   Apparently, the  =93time is money=94 trap has been around awhile, as t=

his

quote is from a radio show in 1959.

 

I dug a little further and found other similarities between my outlook an=

d

the philosophies of the Beat Generation of the 50=92s and 60=92s.  They d=

isliked

the label =93Beat Generation=94, just as I dislike being labeled anti-bus=

iness.

 The Beats were simply people willing to acknowledge their lack of

fulfillment with societal norms.  They wanted to follow their hearts to f=

ind

activities that were meaningful to them.  Watts continues:

 

        =93....And so a lot of young men have come to the realization that inste=

ad of

 =20

           making money to live some other time--that is, after hours, or

when they =20

           retire---they have   decided they should do what they really wa=

nt

to do now,=20

           come what may....=94

 

I=92ll update this quote by adding that I=92m sure many young women feel =

the same

way.

 

Please don=92t let these ideas fool you into thinking that I=92m saying =93=

time is

play=94.   Work is definitely worthwhile--when it=92s fulfilling.  And th=

ere is

nothing wrong with realizing a financial gain from your work.  In fact, I

recommend it highly as a way to pay your bills.  On the other hand, enjoy=

ing

what you do is more important than earning every possible dollar you can.

 Therefore, during my first year of semi-retirement, I=92ve looked for pr=

ojects

I love first,  and have the potential for financial gain second.

 

With one year under my belt, I have begun several projects ranging from

developing a new form of retirement planning to acting in theater and

commercial productions.  Since I am not guaranteed any compensation, I am

free to work on each project whenever I like (which in the case of my pro=

ject

to establish myself as a columnist is currently 10:50 on a Sunday night).=

 =20

 

I suspect juggling many projects will slow down the financial results of =

all

of them.  Factor in the option of dropping or adding projects, and an act=

ive

family and personal schedule (plus the many times I choose to do nothing)=

,

and you can see why succeeding by today=92s entrepreneurial standards wil=

l be

challenging--and  risky.  But,  for me, this =93Beat Way=94 of entreprene=

urism is

more rewarding than living in the =93time is money=94 trap for 30 years t=

o only

then begin pursuing your passions. =20

 

I=92m off to a great start.   I love what I=92m doing, and, a few of my p=

rojects

have started making money.  Not nearly as much I used to make in cold, ha=

rd

cash, but significantly more when I include the value of my quality of li=

fe.=20

 

And that,  for me,  is the answer to the question:  Time is quality of li=

fe.

  =20

In the 1950s-60s,  exciting, new ideas came from Kerouac=92s classic book=

 On

the Road, Allen Ginsberg=92s poetry, and Alan Watts=92 explanations of Ze=

n.  I am

combining the best of the Beat Generation's ideas with the entrepreneuria=

l

spirit of the 90=92s.   My escape from =93the trap=94 may not convince yo=

u the

=93Beat Way=94 is right for you, but it should convince you to think abou=

t what

time is to you and if it makes you happy.  After all, as any Zen master o=

r

your attorney will tell you, time is all you=92ve got.

 

J Pearlstone, a 34 year old entrepreneur from St. Louis, is now semi-reti=

red

and works on various projects between mountain bike rides to the beach in=

 the

San Francisco Bay area.

 

c 1997 J Pearlstone

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 01:02:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I rented this movie yesterday at Blockbuster, so it is in the stores, and I

also never saw that it played in any theaters.

 

The Reeves character was portrayed as older, in his early thirties in the

movie.  In first third he describes him as the younger blood-brother as Bob

related in this quote: "I was almost past this bar when I

glanced up to see my younger blood-brother inside drinking beer alone."  I

don't know why they changed it.  And blood brother is never the biological

brother, it's a good great friend.  Boys'll cut their thumbs and let the

blod run together to become blood brothers.

 

Also, the movie had the Reeves character go outside and beg Cassady to go

in the bar and drink, much different than in the book.

 

 

 

>Bob Whiteley wrote:

>> 

>> In regards to the Keanu Reeves portrayal in "the last time I committed

>***

>In the letter, Neal Cassady writes, "I was almost past this bar when I

>glanced up to see my younger blood-brother inside drinking beer alone."

>Portable Beat Reader; ed Ann Charters, (Pinguin, 1992), New York, p 201.

>and in last paragraph N Cassady writes, "as I drank my last

>blood-brother beer ..." (p 208)

>***

>I have looked in Holy Goof,  First Third, Grace Meets Karma, Off the

>Road, the Tom Christopher book, "Neal Cassady, volume One

>***

>Neal only had older half brothers. His only full sibling and younger

>full or half sibling was Shirley Cassady. At bottom of page 201 Cassady

>called this blood-brother Bill. So he could refer to Bill Cannastra who

>drank abundantly and had head decapitated hanging out train window and

>friend of Kerouac, Bill Tomson who introduced Neal to Carolyn for first

>time and oftentimes brooded over women and would have felt like Neal

>owed him Cherry Mary as Neal had stolen Carolyn from him, Neal's half

>brother (oldest) who died May 22, 1936 when family lived on Champa

>Street or as some combination or fictional characteras in letter Neal

>referred to letter as a story.

>Who really knows????

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:39:28 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: october's Cover of the Month and Web Page Update!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

loved it, paul. mc

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

> The Cover of the Month is now ready with a sincere thanks to Bill Gargan for

> the scan. The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page has been updated as well. Please

> visit us at:

> 

> http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page5.html

> 

>                          Thank-you! Paul of TKQ...

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:56:13 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

> 

> I read Naked Lunch in 1970 and think nothing of it.  I

> can't remember much about it, except that there was

little]

> in it that you could interpret let alone remember. I have

> been hearing that Burroughs wrote a book called Junkie.  I

> am hoping he might have written it before Naked Lunch, and

that

> it might be autobiographical.  Could someone tell me when

it

> was written, and, briefly, what it is about.

 

Junky was WSB's first book.  Needing money (and, I think,

prompted by Kerouac and Ginsberg), he wrote what is

essentially a "how I became a junky, and what junky life is

like book".  Like Queer, his other semi-autobiographical

book, it is written staightforward without any of the

literary experiments of later years.  Some people find it

fascinating.  As for myself, as an admirer of Burrough's

more experimental stuff, it seems too plain and simplistic.

 The point was, after all, money.

 

Tom H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"A Bear of Very Little Brain"

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:03:58 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: something to SPIN...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

 =20

[snip]

 

I  agree =97 absolutely absurd! I had a graduate (500) level

Literature =

instructor at Ohio State University tell our Contemporary

American =

literature class (1950 to present), Ken Kesey hadn't yet

ingested LSD or =

any hallucinogenic substance prior to writing "One Flew Over

the =

Cuckoo's Nest!" Dr. Weatherford insisted, "No writer could

write such =

prose while high." The quarter a prior, I had just finished

Thompson's, =

"Hells Angels," "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas," and Wolf's

"Electric =

Kool Aid Acid Test"

 

And the strange thing?  That it says in the Electric Cool

Aid Acid Test that Kesey saw parts of the book (Cuckoo's

Nest) while on acid, articularly the visions that Chief has

of faces in the fog.  It says something about Kesey seeing

these faces from time to time, and one in particular

gradually got clearer and clearer: the Indian Chief.

 

Tom H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"To Know and be Not Knowing"

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:27:24 -0400

Reply-To:     Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Barrry Miles' response to SPIN

In-Reply-To:  <970919163934_-28729512@emout16.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I just wanted to applaud Barry Miles for his letter to the editors of

SPIN. Thankfully someone with clout is taking on the task of trying to set

some of those unfounded allegations straight.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:54:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Burroughs on Journalism

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

In the light of the recent debate about journalism, editorials, and

slanderous garbage that appears in magazines and newspapers these days,

here's WSB on the rags:

 

"Journalism is closer to the magical origin of writing than most fiction.

That is, at least a few operators in this area-- people like the late

Hearst and Henry Luce-- certainly quite clearly and consciously saw

journalism as a magical operation designed to bring about certain effects.

And the technology is the technology of magic: in the case of newspapers

and magazines, mostly black magic. They stick pins in someone's image and

then show that image to millions of people." The Adding Machine, pg. 48

 

The rest of the essay is worth reading as well. He talks about how easy it

is to insert false information and events that never occured-- both

practiced by Dennis Cooper, incidentally, as my post on the details of his

article demonstrated. Burroughs was a veteran of bad press, and I mean bad

in the sense of the negative light in which he was thrown, and in the

absence of integrity in the journalist involved.

 

Whether someone considers themselves a journalist or an editorial writer,

I believe they should have a commitment to themselves and their readers to

at least try to get the facts straight, and not egregiously misrepresent

their subject. Cooper did neither. As a student, if I ever handed in a

paper as poorly researched as Mr. Cooper's piece, I would be failed, and

probably advised to find another faculty. Why should that integrity be a

part of my scholastic endeavour where the paper would only be read by two

people (me and the prof), but not for someone writing for a readership as

wide as SPIN's?

 

I guess this is partially adressed to James Stauffer: I am bewildered by

your defense of Cooper when it is perfectly obvious he is either guilty of

outright lying, or at the very least of not doing his homework.

 

Neil

 

PS In the rest of the Burroughs essay I quoted (Ten Years and a Billion

Dollars), we find out that the character of Mr. Hart-- the man who will

not permit the word DEATH to be uttered in his presence-- is in fact based

on William Randolph Hearst. Nice to find out these little tidbits here and

there, much like in Patricia's post about the old man by the river, as he

appears in The Western Lands.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:54:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: october's Cover of the Month and Web Page Update!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:39 AM 9/22/97 +0000, you wrote:

>loved it, paul. mc

> 

My pleasure Marie and all at Beat-L, please send in more cover scans!Thanks,

Paul of TKQ...

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:33:39 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs on Journalism

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Neil

 

Had no intention of defending Cooper.  Apologize for the

misunderstanding.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:57:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      bardo what was said

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Two additional notes, Sue Brossiau, (Divid Ohles' wife), mentioned that

the fire cage was one that wayne and William had made for a bardo they

held for Allen G.

Also I had mis heard who the second letter was from that james read at

the bardo; for a little illumination here is approximately what james

said.

James Grauerholz:  remarks at William's Bardo Burn, 9/20/97

 

 

 

Why are we here?

 

Each and every one of us has a different answer to that question, and we

can

meditate on those reasons while we take part in this event tonight.

 

It has something to do with our hosts, Wayne and Carol, and I know we

all

thank them for making this gathering possible.

 

It has something to do with Lawrence, our community - not the

"metropolis" of

Lawrence, frankly - but the community that we found when we came here,

however many years ago we came here ... the community that we built

here,

over the years that we have been here ... the community that we share,

now,

while we are still here.

 

And it has something to do with William Burroughs.  William lived here

for

sixteen years, longer than he lived in any other place in his life.

 

Every time William went out in the town, he always ran into friends; he

had

friends here, everywhere he went.

 

And every time he travelled far away, he always came home to Lawrence.

 

Lawrence was William's home, his final home.  He lived here, he lived

well

here, and he died here.

 

And we all miss him very much.

 

Now, I don't know how many of us are Buddhists, and I'm pretty sure

there are

no more than one or two ancient Egyptians here tonight, but I'd like to

say a

few words about their belief systems concerning life, and death, and

life

after death.

 

The ancient Egyptians postulated seven souls - as William's voice will

be

explaining for us, in a moment ... three of those souls split, at the

moment

of the death, the other four remain with the subject, to take their

chances

with him in the Land of the Dead.  But first he or she must cross the

Duad,

the River of Shit, all the filth and hatred and despair of all human

history

- then, on the other side, lay down the body, the Sekhu, the Remains,

and

journey through the Land of the Dead, encountering souls from your own

life

who have gone before - through a thousand challenges and trials, you try

to

make your way to the Western Lands ...

 

The Buddhist belief (I can't do this justice right now, but this is

basically

it) is that your soul, more or less, is reborn again and again, into new

lives.  Ideally, you would not be reborn, but escape the wheel and of

death

and rebirth, into nirvana; but the highest enlightened ones consciously

vow

to be reborn as many times as it takes for all sentient beings to become

enlightened, they sacrifice their opening to nirvana - that is the

boddhisattva vow.

 

The idea is that after physical death, the soul wanders through a spirit

region known as the Bardo, re-living past experiences, facing images

left

over from other lives, other karma - and then, usually after about seven

weeks, is re-born - attracted to a male and female coupling, and born

again,

to suffer again.

 

We are gathered here tonight to perform a ceremony that is ancient and

universal - the burning of objects and images associated with the

departed,

to symbolize the dissolution of the physical body and its intermixture

with

all other elements - for example, Native Americans, it was pointed out

to me

tonight, burn the dead person's belongings immediately after death ...

 

Now if I haven't waited too late and I can still read this, I'm going to

read

you some short remarks sent here by David Ohle, and by John Giorno:

 

 

First, from David Ohle:

 

 

Sendoff Message to the Soul of Bill

 

Well now, Bill.  They say you've done your Bardo time, and now your SOUL

is

fixing to head off somewhere.

 

But look here, baby.  We're gonna miss that creaky old soft machine

you've

been walking around in these eight score and three.  We got used to it,

you

know.  Those wise and witty things it said.  And wrote.  And it must

have

pumped fifteen tons of lead into the world.

 

I don't know about souls, my dear.  But if you have one (and I know you

believed you did), then let's give it the giddyup 'n' go.  Shoo!

Everybody

say it, "Shoo!  Giddyup!  Git on, Bill's soul!"

 

And take care crossin' that River of Shit.

 

Sorry I ain't there today, my dear, but I figure when you're talking

soul

travel, what the fuck is a few thousand miles?  I'm looking toward

Kansas

right now.  I see something.

 

 

And this from John Giorno, and I'll try to approximate his delivery:

 

 

You generated

 

enough compassion

 

to fill the world,

 

and now,

 

resting in

 

great equanimity,

 

you have accomplished

 

great clarity

 

and great bliss,

 

and the vast empty

 

expanse

 

of Primordially pure

 

Wisdom Mind.

 

 

 

all right.

 

why are we here?

 

I mean, in the larger sense ...

 

William had a very definite answer to that question:

 

We are   Here   to    Go.

 

 

 

Okay, let's burn it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:10:14 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: bardo what was said

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

thank you patricia, for letting me participate via this modem linked to so

many other pecarious means of communication. i wish i had been there, but

since i wasn't you have given me the greatests of gifts, the transcription

of what happened and the validation of life itself within the bardo passing

of wsb.

mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Two additional notes, Sue Brossiau, (Divid Ohles' wife), mentioned that

> the fire cage was one that wayne and William had made for a bardo they

> held for Allen G.

> Also I had mis heard who the second letter was from that james read at

> the bardo; for a little illumination here is approximately what james

> said.

> James Grauerholz:  remarks at William's Bardo Burn, 9/20/97

> 

> Why are we here?

> 

> Each and every one of us has a different answer to that question, and we

> can

> meditate on those reasons while we take part in this event tonight.

> 

> It has something to do with our hosts, Wayne and Carol, and I know we

> all

> thank them for making this gathering possible.

> 

> It has something to do with Lawrence, our community - not the

> "metropolis" of

> Lawrence, frankly - but the community that we found when we came here,

> however many years ago we came here ... the community that we built

> here,

> over the years that we have been here ... the community that we share,

> now,

> while we are still here.

> 

> And it has something to do with William Burroughs.  William lived here

> for

> sixteen years, longer than he lived in any other place in his life.

> 

> Every time William went out in the town, he always ran into friends; he

> had

> friends here, everywhere he went.

> 

> And every time he travelled far away, he always came home to Lawrence.

> 

> Lawrence was William's home, his final home.  He lived here, he lived

> well

> here, and he died here.

> 

> And we all miss him very much.

> 

> Now, I don't know how many of us are Buddhists, and I'm pretty sure

> there are

> no more than one or two ancient Egyptians here tonight, but I'd like to

> say a

> few words about their belief systems concerning life, and death, and

> life

> after death.

> 

> The ancient Egyptians postulated seven souls - as William's voice will

> be

> explaining for us, in a moment ... three of those souls split, at the

> moment

> of the death, the other four remain with the subject, to take their

> chances

> with him in the Land of the Dead.  But first he or she must cross the

> Duad,

> the River of Shit, all the filth and hatred and despair of all human

> history

> - then, on the other side, lay down the body, the Sekhu, the Remains,

> and

> journey through the Land of the Dead, encountering souls from your own

> life

> who have gone before - through a thousand challenges and trials, you try

> to

> make your way to the Western Lands ...

> 

> The Buddhist belief (I can't do this justice right now, but this is

> basically

> it) is that your soul, more or less, is reborn again and again, into new

> lives.  Ideally, you would not be reborn, but escape the wheel and of

> death

> and rebirth, into nirvana; but the highest enlightened ones consciously

> vow

> to be reborn as many times as it takes for all sentient beings to become

> enlightened, they sacrifice their opening to nirvana - that is the

> boddhisattva vow.

> 

> The idea is that after physical death, the soul wanders through a spirit

> region known as the Bardo, re-living past experiences, facing images

> left

> over from other lives, other karma - and then, usually after about seven

> weeks, is re-born - attracted to a male and female coupling, and born

> again,

> to suffer again.

> 

> We are gathered here tonight to perform a ceremony that is ancient and

> universal - the burning of objects and images associated with the

> departed,

> to symbolize the dissolution of the physical body and its intermixture

> with

> all other elements - for example, Native Americans, it was pointed out

> to me

> tonight, burn the dead person's belongings immediately after death ...

> 

> Now if I haven't waited too late and I can still read this, I'm going to

> read

> you some short remarks sent here by David Ohle, and by John Giorno:

> 

> First, from David Ohle:

> 

> Sendoff Message to the Soul of Bill

> 

> Well now, Bill.  They say you've done your Bardo time, and now your SOUL

> is

> fixing to head off somewhere.

> 

> But look here, baby.  We're gonna miss that creaky old soft machine

> you've

> been walking around in these eight score and three.  We got used to it,

> you

> know.  Those wise and witty things it said.  And wrote.  And it must

> have

> pumped fifteen tons of lead into the world.

> 

> I don't know about souls, my dear.  But if you have one (and I know you

> believed you did), then let's give it the giddyup 'n' go.  Shoo!

> Everybody

> say it, "Shoo!  Giddyup!  Git on, Bill's soul!"

> 

> And take care crossin' that River of Shit.

> 

> Sorry I ain't there today, my dear, but I figure when you're talking

> soul

> travel, what the fuck is a few thousand miles?  I'm looking toward

> Kansas

> right now.  I see something.

> 

> And this from John Giorno, and I'll try to approximate his delivery:

> 

> You generated

> 

> enough compassion

> 

> to fill the world,

> 

> and now,

> 

> resting in

> 

> great equanimity,

> 

> you have accomplished

> 

> great clarity

> 

> and great bliss,

> 

> and the vast empty

> 

> expanse

> 

> of Primordially pure

> 

> Wisdom Mind.

> 

> all right.

> 

> why are we here?

> 

> I mean, in the larger sense ...

> 

> William had a very definite answer to that question:

> 

> We are   Here   to    Go.

> 

> Okay, let's burn it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:38:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject:      Douglas Brinkley and Kerouac (and America)

In-Reply-To:  <3426A362.1BA9@sunflower.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I talked to Professor Brinkley on the phone yesterday.  He is in the

process of editing Jack's road diaries (120 volumes of them!!) and a few

pages will come out in the New Yorker this December.  He is also writing a

biography on Kerouac and finishing his biography on Jimmy Carter.

And he's (probably) going to read at an open-mike down here in New Orleans

that some friends and i are putting together sometime in November.  yay!

 

On the issue of the Beats and Patriotism, I recommend his book, "The Majic

Bus-An American Odyssey."

 

As for my own opinions:  I believe that the Beats were VERY Patriotic, but

they do create their own definition of the word.  They love America.

Hell, Jack's dedication page in _Visions of Cody_ reads, "Dedicated to

America, whatever that is."  They love the land, and they love many of the

people as individuals.  They do not love the government.  Gary Snyder once

said (paraphrasing): "We must  realize that we are all Native

Americans."  Lawrence Ferlinghetti's poetry is full of American images,

i.e. the American Eagle.  There love of America is founded on the original

ideas of the country.  We had a discussion a while a go about how "Howl"

seems to be almost a new "Declaration of Independence."  Their love is

founded on the potential of America-  that orgiastic light.  And as Thomas

Wolfe wrote:

        "I believe we are lost in America, but I do believe we will be

found."

 

The Beats had the same view, but they adopted different methods to help

FIND the real America.  Ginsberg threw himself into the middle of Moloch

and tried to change the American Moloch from the inside.  Kerouac ran away

from Moloch and found America on lonely highways, on mountain tops, in the

smiles of old men.  Burroughs in an even more dramatic way, fled Moloch

America to other countries, attempting to show us from the outside what a

bad thing America has become.

 

-matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:06:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs on Journalism

In-Reply-To:  <34269DE3.4B77@pacbell.net>

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On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Neil

> 

> Had no intention of defending Cooper.  Apologize for the

> misunderstanding.

> 

> J. Stauffer

> 

 

I in turn apologize for misconstruing your posts.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:22:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mitchell Smith <Praetor77@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Beat Books and Broadsides for Sale

 

I have a list of items, mostly first editions or collectibles, for sale.

Please email me at turtlisle@aol.com if you'd like a copy of the list. Do not

reply to this email address and please do not create list traffic with your

request.

 

Mitchell Smith

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:04:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Douglas Brinkley and Kerouac (and America)

 

In a message dated 97-09-22 14:42:06 EDT, you write:

 

<< 

 I talked to Professor Brinkley on the phone yesterday.  He is in the

 process of editing Jack's road diaries (120 volumes of them!!) and a few

 pages will come out in the New Yorker this December.  He is also writing a

 biography on Kerouac  >>

 

I understand it's true about the OTR journals, but I'm given to understand

there are not necessarily firm plans for a biography by Brinkley.

 

Apparently there will be a feature story on the subject in Wednesday's

USAToday. Anyway, that's what I hear.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:35:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Douglas Brinkley and Kerouac (and America)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:04 PM 9/22/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-09-22 14:42:06 EDT, you write:

> 

><< 

> I talked to Professor Brinkley on the phone yesterday.  He is in the

> process of editing Jack's road diaries (120 volumes of them!!) and a few

> pages will come out in the New Yorker this December.  He is also writing a

> biography on Kerouac  >>

> 

>I understand it's true about the OTR journals, but I'm given to understand

>there are not necessarily firm plans for a biography by Brinkley.

> 

>Apparently there will be a feature story on the subject in Wednesday's

>USAToday. Anyway, that's what I hear.

> 

>diane

> 

There are definite plans for this biography which will not see the light of

day for at least two or three years. He hasn't even started it yet. Paul...

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:37:18 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Douglas Brinkley and Kerouac (and America)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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in ferlinghetti's poem autobiography (too long for me to type, but

here's an excerpt):

".....i am an american.

i was an american boy.

i read the american boy maazine

and became a boy scout in the suburbs.

i thought i was tom sawyer

catching crayfish in the bronx

and imagining the mississippi...

i had an unhappy childhood

i saw lindberg land.

i looked homeward

and saw no angel.

i got caught stealing pencils

from the five and ten cent store

the same month i made eagle scout..."

> Americans."  Lawrence Ferlinghetti's poetry is full of American images,

> i.e. the American Eagle.  There love of America is founded on the original

> ideas of the country.  We had a discussion a while a go about how "Howl"

 

> -matt

randy

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:37:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         der doc <der_doc@ROCKETMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: SPIN

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

Marlene,

 

I myself am a coffeehouse kid.  (Don't let the Dr. fool you, I am a

Gen X'er, though I loathe the term.)  I spend a great deal of my time

in public in coffeehouses.  My band usually plays in coffeehouses.  My

life outside of school and my fiance' is coffeehouses.  The Wine of

the Bean is instilled in my very soul.

   I was making a comment on what I have seen happen to many, many

people, myself among them.  The indie-rock "cool as long as unpopular"

ideal.  It's rampant amongst my friends and other kids I see around

the coffehouses of the world.  I wasn't meaning it to reflect on

cafe's, just the indie rock kids that hang out in them.

 

Dr, Adam J Muszkiewicz

 

 

===

visit my web site, The Beat(en) Regeneration

(http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6131)

for info on the Beat, Beatnik and Neo-Beat subcultures

 

 

_____________________________________________________________________

Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:48:32 +1100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject:      N.Y. TIMES -  last Suicide review

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

This was from the N.Y. TIMES:

 

 

 

          June 20, 1997

 

          A Young Neal Cassady, On the Road and Off

 

          --------------------------------------------------------

          Forum

        * Join a Discussion on Movies

          --------------------------------------------------------

 

          By STEPHEN HOLDEN

 

          [Y] ou didn't have to dye your hair green, pierce your

              tongue and wear bizarre eye makeup to stand out as a

          flaming rebel in the late 1940s. All you had to do was

          chain-smoke, play pool, listen to be-bop and break

          girls' hearts.

 

          That's the portrait of the 20-year-old Neal Cassady

          (flashily played by the newcomer Thomas Jane) that

          emerges in Stephen Kay's snazzy-looking but slight film,

          "The Last Time I Committed Suicide."

 

          At 20, the man who became a guiding light of the Beat

          Generation, inspiring Jack Kerouac's "On the Road" and

          later joining Ken Kesey's psychedelic troupe the Merry

          Pranksters, is portrayed as a hunky mixed-up kid with

          too many hormones roiling around in his body.

 

          The movie is based on a letter that the young Cassady

          wrote to Kerouac when Cassady was living in Denver and

          working the night shift at a Goodyear Tire factory. The

          fragments of the letter heard over the soundtrack

          suggest a fevered, semi-coherent stream-of-consciousness

          running on a jazzy, hopped-up rhythm that became a

          hallmark of Beat literature.

 

          Kay has made that rhythm the visual pulse of his debut

          feature film. Beyond recounting incidents in Cassady's

          youth, the movie, whose soundtrack is drenched in

          be-bop, aspires to be an impressionistic canvas of

          America when the country, still dewy-eyed with postwar

          optimism, was jumping out of its collective skin.

 

          Almost every shot is drenched in rich period detail so

          acute it has a surreal edge. When Cassady visits an

          office where one of his girlfriends works as a typist,

          the place is a hushed dimly lit cathedral to capitalism

          in which elaborately coiffed secretaries sit in rigid

          formation behind giant manual typewriters. Later, when

          Cassady and some friends steal a bright red convertible

          for a joy ride, the image of the cherry-red car jouncing

          through a field with snowcapped mountains in the

          background has the nostalgic tug of a Saturday Evening

          Post cover illustration.

 

          When not creating memorable visual tableaux, the film

          observes Neal's frenetic love life as he zigzags between

          the sad-eyed, suicidal Joan (Claire Forlani) and Cherry

          Mary (Gretchen Mol), a sexually precocious teen-ager who

          suggests the adolescent Shirley Temple gone bad. In his

          spare time, Neal hangs out at a pool hall, drinking

          beers with Harry, a lowlife crony who is 12 years his

          senior.

 

          Keanu Reeves, looking bloated and bleary-eyed, gives

          Harry a woozy affability. Also popping up from time to

          time is a skinny, spectacled friend named Ben (Adrien

          Brody), who has a big crush on Neal and who appears to

          be modeled after the young Allen Ginsberg.

 

          As effectively as it evokes the late 1940s, "The Last

          Time I Committed Suicide" has little dramatic momentum.

          Although the film tries to suggest a wrenching inner

          conflict between Neal's wanderlust and his fantasy of a

          picture-perfect bourgeois life (he has recurrent dreams

          of a house with a picket fence), there is clearly no

          contest. If the movie is dramatically inert, it has the

          charm of a lovingly assembled personal scrapbook. It's

          clear in every frame of the film how strongly Kay

          identifies with his legendary subject.

 

          PRODUCTION NOTES:

 

          'THE LAST TIME I COMMITTED SUICIDE'

 

          With: Thomas Jane (Neal Cassady), Keanu Reeves (Harry),

          Adrien Brody (Ben), Claire Forlani (Joan) and Gretchen

          Mol (Cherry Mary). Written and directed by Stephen Kay;

          based on a letter written by Neal Cassady to Jack

          Kerouac; director of photography, Bobby Bukowski; edited

          by Dorian Harris; music by Tyler Bates; production

          designer, Amy Ancona; produced by Edward Bates and

          Louise Rosner; released by Kushner-Locke Company, Roxie

          Releasing and Tapestry Films.

 

          Running time: 95 minutes. This film is rated R.

 

            Home | Sections | Contents | Search | Forums | Help

 

                 Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company

------------------------------------------------------------------.o0

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178  Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:02:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Douglas Brinkley and Kerouac (and America)

 

liked and post matt...and agree with you completely.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:27:21 -0700

Reply-To:     mike@buchenroth.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@BUCHENROTH.COM>

Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company

Subject:      Re: bardo what was said

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Patricia Elliott:

I made a sort of animated gif using the Wm S Burroughs image you posted

onto Beat-L a few weeks ago. I also mentioned you and copied one of your

Beat-L posts in the description of this image on my CELM site.

I always enjoy reading your posts at:

***

http://www.buchenroth.com/animwsb.gif

***

-Mike

 

Charles sent me photos from Lawrence KS.

-Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:02:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: bardo what was said

Comments: To: mike@buchenroth.com

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:

> 

> Patricia Elliott:

> I made a sort of animated gif using the Wm S Burroughs image you posted

> onto Beat-L a few weeks ago. I also mentioned you and copied one of your

> Beat-L posts in the description of this image on my CELM site.

> I always enjoy reading your posts at:

> ***

> http://www.buchenroth.com/animwsb.gif

> ***

> -Mike

> 

> Charles sent me photos from Lawrence KS.

> -Mike

Mike, what a fun trip i just had, visited both sites.  The magazine is

fine.  I am truely honored to have my piece "bardo" presented.  James

took the picture i posted, the one i call wsb good. I loved what you did

with it.  The material on Plymell is just fascinating. You presented a

wealth of information on not just charles but managed to present a

fabric and context, of time and people with the biographical information

on Charles. I believe and agree with you, that Charles is a great man, a

great writer.  Do you Know of David Ohle's work.  I have always thought

him to be one of the best writers, up there .  Some of his works are the

"City Moon", Motor man" and "Mortified Man"  "Chili Hearts".  When david

gets back from Eugene I will ask permission to scan some of his work and

share it with you.

Thanks again.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:11:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Death stalking around my door/long/true/personal

 

That was beauitiful, marlene!  i love you!

 

-jenn fedor

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:46:18 -0400

Reply-To:     atrigili@lynx.dac.neu.edu

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Organization: Northeastern University

Subject:      Re: backSPIN & envy

MIME-Version: 1.0

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James--

 

Thanks for the thoughtful posting.  I agree most of all that it's

unproductive to attack those who dislike our favorite artists and

thinkers purely on the basis that . . . they don't like the same artists

and thinkers we might like:

 

> I think that is what bothers me about this thread.  The assumption that

> if someone doesn't like the guys we like they aren't just wrong,  or

> have different tastes but lying, envious duplicitous bastards.  It's the

> flip side of what the "fascists" are always supposed to be doing--simply

> dismissing anything which challenges their assumptions because they

> don't like the life style.

 

Best of all, I liked your post because it caught me in a kind of

laziness--when I said of George Will's diatribe against AG:  "Repressed

envy usually simmers around these kind of pieces, and Will's obit in

particular is no exception."  A subjective point that's so tough to

prove that I should have said, "As a reader, I feel like repressed envy

usually simmers, etc." or "Repressed envy seems to simmer, etc."  Words

matter; ideas have consequences.  Readers can only respond to what you

wrote, not what you wanted to write or thought you were writing.

 

I agree that it seems reasonable to think that Podhoretz's envied

Ginsberg's fame and readership, as you said in your posting.  But in the

essay he actually pursues the envy further.  And I'm fascinated that he

elaborates on his envy--that he admits a rich psychological history to

his battle with AG, a history many of us could suspect but that would be

very difficult to prove without an impossibly dense knowledge of

Podhoretz's inner life.

 

In the essay, Podhoretz admits that he resented AG's lifestyle.  He says

that his anti-Beat writing was partly a result of complaints he had

about the pressures of his own life.  On page 32, he writes:  "At the

age of twenty-six, the year *Howl and Other Poems* was published, I had

married a woman with two very small children, thereby assuming

responsiblity for an entire family at one stroke; and by the time 'The

Know-Nothing Bohemians' appeared in 1958, a third child had come along

(with a fourth to follow in due course).  To support this growing

family, I relied on three different sources of income--a full-time job

as an editor, free-lance writing at night and on weekends, and lecture

engagements whenever I could get them.  Inevitably, then, and along with

everything else, it was myself I was defending in fighting the Beats."

 

Podhoretz later agrees with Ginsberg's 1987 assessment that their

competing visions actually were "provocative and interesting" to the

other (actual quote from 1987 interview is on p. 37).  Podhoretz asks on

p. 32, "How could it [AG's vision] not have been ["provocative and

interesting"]?  As against the law-abiding life I had chosen of a steady

job and marriage and children, he conjured up a world of complete

freedom from the limits imposed by such grim responsibilities.  It was a

world that promised endless erotic possibility together with the

excitements of an expanded consciousness constantly open to new

dimensions of being:  more adventure, more sex, more intensity, more

*life*."

 

I would think that the best description of envy I'd get in the article

would be envy of fame/influence/readership.  Yet the self-exposure and

honesty in the article was a surprise (I think again of Podhoretez's

conclusion, which I quoted in the posting a few weeks ago: "I still

cannot bring myself to forgive *him* [AG], not even now that he is

dead").  I'm glad this thread brought me back to the article.

 

Tony

 

****************************************************

"I think of people's faces and stay away from coffee.

I listen to my radio and I go to bed early, too.  There's

nothing like sleep to make you feel good the next day.

And I also eat good.  When I feel tense and nervous

in the morning, I go to Ruby's and have a good breakfast.

The food gives me the energy to think more positive

thoughts."

--Henry Turner

****************************************************

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 03:45:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Last time I committed suicide, which was before this time

 

In a message dated 97-09-19 17:04:03 EDT, you write:

 

<< By the way, I really enjoyed the movie. I could be wrong, but i really

hope that Keanu wasn't playing JK, that would be a serious casting mistake.

Thanks. >>

 

Keanu was playing a character named Harry. Definitely not suppose to be

Kerouac nor drawn on Kerouac. Neal was called Neal in the movie. The movie

was based on a letter that Neal Cassady wrote to Kerouac, written in 1950.

The letter played a major influence on Kerouac's writings with it's wild

madcap recounting of the events.

 

The movie had a very short run in the theaters, probably just the major

cities, but it is out on video.

 

Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:11:30 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Mime format Re: october's Cover... re:patriots

In-Reply-To:  <342504E5.D0524C08@mail.telepac.pt>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11.28 21/09/97 +0000,

DuarteMoniz <DuarteMoniz@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT> wrote:

>Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

>> As most of you on the list have noticed, mime format and photographs

>> do

>> not travel well on Beat-l.  It might be better to mount such files on

>> a

>> web page and provide listmembers with the url so t hat they can

>> download

>> them to their hard drives and read them with their browers.

> 

> 

>Can't agree with you. It may desencourage people to send photos and

>photos are great to see and rest awhile from all the texts. It was very

>nice to see some of you some time back.I also appreciate the posts with

>full articles that appear in the US media concerning the beats. It's the

> 

>only way we (not residents in the USA) can have access to those prints.

>I am enjoying very much  being with you all, althought you didn't notice

>my presence up until now.

> 

>Duarte Moniz

>Portugal

> 

Duarte Moniz,

 

I agree totally with, you, the pics travel fine attached in email,

and i you fon't  own a www space it's impossible to post pictures, another

problem was the native characters (as noted by the chinese friend

some post ago, and by myself again) that's it would be nice to be

posted (i.e. eastern coutry, or far eastern country,...),

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

 

        please who's the

        person in charge of

        the "cover" project?

        may he blackchanell

        to me, i'm working

        on the JK it 1967 poket

        cover of "Sulla Strada" (OTR)

        also i've the cover of

        1980 JK "On the Road"

        i dunno if it's a rarity

        someone let me know if i

        can start to scan...

**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**

 

at the moment i italy the word "patriot" is referred to

the people like "venetian patriots" who wish the secessionism

from the italy, and have their symbol in the bell tower in

S.Marco Square in Venice, the "patriots" want that Venetian

Lands becom independent from the rest of Italy (independent

movement),

***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-

 

saluti cari,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:22:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mime format Re: october's Cover... re:patriots

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi Rinaldo, I am posting a different cover each month. If you have one I

will use it for November but will probably post it sooner. You can send it

as an attachment to this address. Thanks...you will see it posted at The

Kerouac Quarterly Web Page...Paul...

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:30:24 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: bardo what was said

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

michael b: i agree with patricia, the giff is wonderful the picture of wsb

evokes him in all third dimensions and beyond.

i'm looking for patricia's piece you mention below, as well as the site on

ch. Plymell.

mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:

> >

> > Patricia Elliott:

> > I made a sort of animated gif using the Wm S Burroughs image you posted

> > onto Beat-L a few weeks ago. I also mentioned you and copied one of your

> > Beat-L posts in the description of this image on my CELM site.

> > I always enjoy reading your posts at:

> > ***

> > http://www.buchenroth.com/animwsb.gif

> > ***

> > -Mike

> >

> > Charles sent me photos from Lawrence KS.

> > -Mike

> Mike, what a fun trip i just had, visited both sites.  The magazine is

> fine.  I am truely honored to have my piece "bardo" presented.  James

> took the picture i posted, the one i call wsb good. I loved what you did

> with it.  The material on Plymell is just fascinating. You presented a

> wealth of information on not just charles but managed to present a

> fabric and context, of time and people with the biographical information

> on Charles. I believe and agree with you, that Charles is a great man, a

> great writer.  Do you Know of David Ohle's work.  I have always thought

> him to be one of the best writers, up there .  Some of his works are the

> "City Moon", Motor man" and "Mortified Man"  "Chili Hearts".  When david

> gets back from Eugene I will ask permission to scan some of his work and

> share it with you.

> Thanks again.

> p

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:01:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Mime format Re: october's Cover... re:patriots

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

There is nothing wrong with mimes except they must be

decoded with uudecode.  Why not send binaries, which can

be decoded easily.

 

Mike Rice

 

At 12:11 PM 9/23/97 +0200, you wrote:

>At 11.28 21/09/97 +0000,

>DuarteMoniz <DuarteMoniz@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT> wrote:

>>Bill Gargan wrote:

>> 

>>> As most of you on the list have noticed, mime format and photographs

>>> do

>>> not travel well on Beat-l.  It might be better to mount such files on

>>> a

>>> web page and provide listmembers with the url so t hat they can

>>> download

>>> them to their hard drives and read them with their browers.

>> 

>> 

>>Can't agree with you. It may desencourage people to send photos and

>>photos are great to see and rest awhile from all the texts. It was very

>>nice to see some of you some time back.I also appreciate the posts with

>>full articles that appear in the US media concerning the beats. It's the

>> 

>>only way we (not residents in the USA) can have access to those prints.

>>I am enjoying very much  being with you all, althought you didn't notice

>>my presence up until now.

>> 

>>Duarte Moniz

>>Portugal

>> 

>Duarte Moniz,

> 

>I agree totally with, you, the pics travel fine attached in email,

>and i you fon't  own a www space it's impossible to post pictures, another

>problem was the native characters (as noted by the chinese friend

>some post ago, and by myself again) that's it would be nice to be

>posted (i.e. eastern coutry, or far eastern country,...),

>*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

> 

>        please who's the

>        person in charge of

>        the "cover" project?

>        may he blackchanell

>        to me, i'm working

>        on the JK it 1967 poket

>        cover of "Sulla Strada" (OTR)

>        also i've the cover of

>        1980 JK "On the Road"

>        i dunno if it's a rarity

>        someone let me know if i

>        can start to scan...

>**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**

> 

>at the moment i italy the word "patriot" is referred to

>the people like "venetian patriots" who wish the secessionism

>from the italy, and have their symbol in the bell tower in

>S.Marco Square in Venice, the "patriots" want that Venetian

>Lands becom independent from the rest of Italy (independent

>movement),

>***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-***-

> 

>saluti cari,

>Rinaldo.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:03:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: bardo  message

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> All week  long I didn't want to go.  I felt swept with anxiety and

> decided about 7 times I wouldn't go.

 

<reluctant snip>

 

>         I feel when William first died, his spirit was there in the room with

 his body, it was comforting. Then I felt his spirit whirling around the world,

 I almost know he went to Tangiers for a moment.  I feel he is gone.  we have

 lots to do now.

> > Patricia

 

The energy from the Kaw connections slid through the Vortex to my

electromagnetic seven souls as i investigated Denver and Boulder wearing

my black William's memory hat (which i didn't burn) and wandered here

and there (full report sometime this week).

 

I think that it is hilarious that the number 7 pops up in the number of

times you weren't going to go.  PERFECT!  I imagine it was the fourth

decision not to go which was the most traumatic.  I thought of you and

all the Lawrence folks i've met many times as i wandered and especially

connected with these energies wandering through Naropa early Saturday

afternoon.  The William has been here energy was overpoweringly sweet at

times.  In the Naropa bookstore i saw William picture postcards and

considered buying one to burn but the idea of open fires in Boulder

didn't sound prudent - hell you almost get arrested for having a lit

cigarette there.

 

Your last line is wise.

 

david rhaesa

back in salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:01:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Looking forward to participating in group

MIME-Version: 1.0

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In the words of the immortal beatnik, Maynard G. Krebbs.... "WoooORRRK?"

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:52:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Lytle <e.lytle@SARCOS.COM>

Subject:      Still SPINning ...

MIME-Version: 1.0

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        I know this thread is just about played out,  but did anyone

else notice a book review of Dennis Cooper's latest work in

Salonmagazine.com on Friday.  I just checked the site and it has been

updated since last week.  You can still find the page at

 

http:/www.salonmagazine.com/sept97/sneaks/sneak970919.html     (sorry

it's so long)

 

        The interesting part is that the reviewer discussed how

misunderstood and disliked Cooper is,  and topped it off by comparing

him to wsb.  How ironic...

 

-E

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:32:58 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dufour <dufour@ULISSE.IT>

Subject:      Beat book covers

Comments: To: BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I'm very interested in seeing the original covers of the U.S. editions of

AG, JK, WSB most important books, can anyone tell me where to find these in

a website or in jpeg (or equivalent) format ?

 

Ciao!

 

Francesco

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:15:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Lytle <e.lytle@SARCOS.COM>

Subject:      Re: Still SPINning ...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Doh!  I don't think that worked.

 

I apparently flubbed the address.  If you go to Salonmagazine.com and

click on Books,  you will see Dennis Cooper's review under friday's

date.  This reviewer has called Cooper a suitable torch bearer for the

late great wsb.

 

-E

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:35:33 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: mass suicide postings

Comments: To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

In-Reply-To:  <199709220211.WAA18738@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 21 Sep 1997, Diane M. Homza wrote:

 

> Question: (since this is one of the recent threads, anyway)

> 

> when exactly did The Last Time I Commited Suicide come out?  I've been

> assuming that it's already available on video, but in the neighborhood

> vidoe store tonite I saw a poster hanging underneath the "coming soon"

> sign, & the poster was for LTICS, so now I'm confused.

 

Just rented & watched it tonight. I got it at Hollywood video, and someone

else said it was out at Blockbuster, so maybe the evil corporate chains got

it first.

 

My thoughts on the film: Well, it had nice crisp late-90s cinematography,

the colorful neons and rain atmospherics etc reminding me of _Shine_. I

thought that the guy who portrayed Neal got his moves down quite well, and

some of the camera pans on him when he was going off excitedly talking were

pretty effective. I didn't like the sets -- it looked too much like a 90s

"verison" of the late 40s/early 50s, kind of like how _Grease_ or _Heart

Beat_ to me is more about the 70s than the 50s. Everyone (esp. Neal) looked

more like a 90210 extra rather than someone from the past -- they never get

this right in film! Good soundtrack and "cute" story though -- if _Heart

Beat_ was a 4 then this one's a 6.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:29:55 GMT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>

Subject:      Levis

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Have you folks seen the Levi's commercial mentioning Jack and Charley Parker?

 

There's an icecream man and a bunch of kids crowded around and before he

gives them their icecream, they have to answer his questions.  The first boy

comes up and the man asks, "Who was Jack Kerouac?"  The boy replies, "On The

Road."  The next kid comes up and the man asks, "Who was birdland named

after?" The boy replies, "Charley Parker."  Then the icecream man quickly

asks, "Tenor or Alto?" and the first boy whispers in the other's ear.  I

forget whether Bird played Tenor or Alto (jesus, what kind of Kerouac-Junkie

am I?) but you all get the point.  I thought it was a damn good commercial!

 

ALSO... A couple of months ago I was at a Lyle Lovett show where he opened

up with a song singing, "who remembers Jack Kerouac?"  It was a beautiful

song, and I'd never heard it before.  Any other Lyle fans wanna take a stab??

 

 

Chris

Visit Chris's Page at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2124

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:42:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: N.Y. TIMES -  last Suicide review

 

Reply to message from duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU of Mon, 22 Sep

> 

> 

>          PRODUCTION NOTES:

> 

>          'THE LAST TIME I COMMITTED SUICIDE'

> 

>          With: Thomas Jane (Neal Cassady), Keanu Reeves (Harry),

>          Adrien Brody (Ben), Claire Forlani (Joan) and Gretchen

>          Mol (Cherry Mary). Written and directed by Stephen Kay;

>          based on a letter written by Neal Cassady to Jack

>          Kerouac; director of photography, Bobby Bukowski; edited

>          by Dorian Harris; music by Tyler Bates; production

>          designer, Amy Ancona; produced by Edward Bates and

>          Louise Rosner; released by Kushner-Locke Company, Roxie

>          Releasing and Tapestry Films.

> 

 

 

Does anyone know if this Stephen Kay is a Beat enthusiast?  It makes me

wonder how he happened upon this project...I don't think the letter is much

known outside of the Beat Enthusiast realm.  Oh, cure my wonderings,

someone!  (and I greatly apologize if this has been discussed before & I

just don't pay attention & the colelctive compnay decides to exile me

from posting anymore)

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia Plath

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:19:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Douglas Brinkley and Kerouac (and America)

In-Reply-To:  <970922155800_1630061747@emout11.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Diane De Rooy wrote:

 

> In a message dated 97-09-22 14:42:06 EDT, you write:

> 

> <<

>  I talked to Professor Brinkley on the phone yesterday.  He is in the

>  process of editing Jack's road diaries (120 volumes of them!!) and a few

>  pages will come out in the New Yorker this December.  He is also writing a

>  biography on Kerouac  >>

> 

> I understand it's true about the OTR journals, but I'm given to understand

> there are not necessarily firm plans for a biography by Brinkley.

> 

> Apparently there will be a feature story on the subject in Wednesday's

> USAToday. Anyway, that's what I hear.

> 

> diane

> 

Well, that's what the man said.

 

-matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:32:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      A week of white noise

Comments: cc: "Beach@qconline.com" <Beach@qconline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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i remember once when my first major mentor of sorts at the University of

Kansas was being honored for some thing or another and the speaker said

to really know a person check out the names of the books in their

personal library and then preceded to humorously interpret the

connections between many of his book titles.  I had two thoughts.  For

my generation it would probably be more fitting to look at their music

collections AND that i would purposely buy books to put in my shelves to

throw people off the trail!!!!!  My copy of Hints From Heloise is a

prized example of this type of book!  Rod is a master of such a

strategy.  Someday some of you may get the honor of witnessing his

books!!!!

 

So i decided a week ago after Rod left from a visit and had loaned me a

huge collection of cd's to catalogue the "white noise" in my apartment

#23 (isn't that number somehow significant?).  This is "a week of White

Noise!:

 

Bob Dylan-Unplugged; George Clinton Greatest Funkin Hits; The Best of

Melanie; William S. Burroughs + Gus Van Sant - The Elvis of Letters;

Breakthrough in the Grey Room - William S. Burroughs; Holy Soul Jelly

Roll, Poems and Songs 1949-1993 - Vol.1 MOLOCH!; The Jewish Experience,

Chanukkah - the western wind narrated by Theodore Bikel; Call Me

Burroughs - WSB; Western Movie Themes from Cint Eastwood Movies; Voices

of Forgotten Worlds - Traditional Music of Indigenous People 2 cds; In

Their Own Voices: A Century of Recorded Poetry, Volumes 3 and 4; Jack

Kerouac on the Beat Generation; The Essence of Thelonius Monk; William

S. Burroughs - Dead City Radio; Bob Dylan's Greatest Hits Volume 3;

CHANGES - Native American Flute Music - R. Carlos Nakai; Jack Kerouac -

Blues and Haikus featuring Al Cohn and Zoot Sims; Holy Soul Jelly Roll,

Poems and Songs 1949-1993 - Vol.2 CAW! CAW!; The Jewish Experience -

Passover the western wind narrated by Theodore Bickel; The Best of the

Grateful Dead - Skeletons from the Closet; Kerouac - Kicks Joy

Darkness;  Pink Floyd - THE WALL; Holy Soul Jelly Roll Poems and Songs

1949-1993 Vol. 3: AH! ;  In Their Own Voices A Century of Recorded

Poetry Volumes one and two; Captain Beefheart and his Magic Band - Safe

as Milk (i bought this during the week and so i actually listened to it

between every cd from here to the end); Leonard Cohen - I'm Your Man;

Bruce Cockburn - The Charity of the Night; Jack Kerouac Steve Allen -

Poetry of the Beat Generation; William S. Burroughs Kurt Cobain - the

"Priest" they called him; Outback - Baka; Yellowjackets - Like a River;

Eric Clapton Timepieces Vol.2 'Live in the Seventies'; John Lennon -

Live in New York City.

 

I'm currently listening as i type to the white noise of: Kenya &

Tanzania - Witchcraft and Ritual Music.  Next up is Holy Soul Jelly Roll

vol.4.....

 

If anyone can find a coherent string or thread winding through these

noises i'd sure appreciate it.  Have a therapist appointment tomorrow

afternoon and she always wants to know how i've been.  A two or three

word synthesis of these sounds would be a fun thing to throw at Wendy.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:55:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: bardo  message

Comments: To: SSASN@aol.com

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Several people have worried what was burned. here is my response.

i clipped one question.  Which is not a bad question, it is a legitamate

one.

 

I hope that the WSB legacy left to

> posterity has not been diminished because of this ceremony, however

> meaningful or in accordance with his wishes &/or those closest to him.

 

patricia wrote

I burnt some River City Reunion programs, printouts of the beat-l

postings, a printout of rinaldo's "shit kicking list", things i thought

that william had enjoyed or would enjoy, I saw things of interest in the

pile but nothing that i would throw myself on the fire for.  Newspaper

clippings, great little sketches of the cats that william had over the

years, tickets and posters announcing readings, looked like a lot of

people wrote letters to the man.  I felt that no legacy was in danger

but I very much felt that I needed to offer up something real. I have

probably 500 river city reunion programs.

        I was stunned how right the ceremony was, I thought the concept of

bardo fit the man and was much taken with the rightness of it.  I told

my husband that a barnfire and potluck would definatly be my funeral of

choice. I would like more dancing, maybe some couples fucking in the

bushes on blankets, My husband said that that would probably be hard,

since our friends were getting old.  I have kept a lot of the anger I

feel around death pretty much in control but I felt a flair at the

suggestion that his feelings and those that loved him should take some

back seat ride to his "legacy left to posterity ", inho, his choice here

was but the reflection of the sincerity of his writing. When  I started

on this list I  argued with some guy who insisted there was nothing of

the spiritual in williams writing, which i thought was a crock.  That no

bettter words than william  reading from western lands could be found to

fit williams bardo is so fucking obvious .. .  Oh well, I am sure that

it is the sholar and researcher that wondered what was lost in the fire.

I found the event to be another layer of education and fun that i

recieved from knowing that old man. It was like him , to actually do it.

        One side of William that always made me marvel was his combining the

intellect with the spirit of exploring the physical  He tinkered and

invented, he was a physical man.  A lot of people use to talk to me of

the conflict between the corporeal and the spiritual and the intellect.

He would talk to me of the exciting points of interactions of these

planes.  I know, that at this point i should dive into quotes from "my

eduction" or western lands, because of what i i am trying to tell  you

about him, with my paraphrasing of his ideas. I assure you, his language

and mine differ and my language does no justice to his ideas, the only

language that did that was his.  I consider him one of the great

geniuses of language.

          It may be the only time i ever really like fireworks.  When I first

met William I suffered from a fear and dread of guns, Fred and William

worked with me for years and i leapt across that fear, and enjoyed

shooting with him. The last time a couple of months before he died was

odd, how the focusing and comradre really brought it to a level of

experiance i would never of acheived without the help. We had a

wonderful conversation about facing things and going through doors , it

brought you to a better place. pow,pow pow.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:24:06 +0900

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac's "Books"

In-Reply-To:  <34284BAD.2F7C@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        Starting "Some of the Dharma", I was impressed with the notes

displayed in the endcovers in which Kerouac had classified and outlined the

guidelines of his system of different writing types, including such

categories as: Blues, Dreams, Dharmas, Pops, Tics, Visions, Sketches, etc.

(which eventually were published as "Book of Blues", "Book of Dreams",

"Visions of Gerard/Cody", etc.) It provided me with a way to divide and

group some the notes and writings that I had been keeping for years.

        I've ended up with a Folder of Books containing several titles,

some of them matching the types Kerouac had described in the notes and some

of them, like "Book of Prayers", not mentioned specifically in his notes.

        I'm wondering if there is anyone else out there who has had a

chance to look at Some of the Dharma who has any thoughts on the notes

shown in the endcovers (What are your thoughts on this "system"?; Has it

had any influence on your writing?; Were there any categories which you

thought could be added?) or if there has been any studied focus in the

creative writing circles (perhaps at Naropa) of writing within the

parameters of the guidelines described by Jack Kerouac in these notes.

        My book's at home today (I'm at the office), but I'll be happy to

forward in a couple days the description of the system for those folks who

aren't familiar with what I'm talking about. I hope that this post might

tangent off in positive ways.

        Thanks.

 

:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::

Timothy Hoffman

Komaki English Teaching Center

timothy@gol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:32:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fly to Lowell

 

anyone interested in buying a round trip ticket from Raleigh, NC to Boston,

MA?

i can't make the trip to Lowell this year and am hoping that someone out

there will be able to use these tickets.  $200 and the tickets are yours.

 Leave Raleigh Oct. 1st and return on Oct. 6th.  man, i was really looking

forward to this trip.

 

anyone interested.  let me know.

john j dorfner

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:19:25 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      beat images identity

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19970923112226.0069d710@pop.pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

friends,

i've post on the web two photos of beats that i can't

recognize the site is

 

http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beatpic.htm

 

someone has a suggestion?

thanks for the help,

cari saluti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:31:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      USA Today

 

To get to the OTR 40th Anniversary story in the 9/24/97 USA Today online, go

here: http://www.usatoday.com/life/enter/books/leb848.htm

 

I just glanced at it, but was happy to see they'd included the one-man play

written and performed by Vince Balestri that's been playing most of the year

here in Seattle. I've seen it twice and will see it one more time before the

run ends on 5 October.

 

There's a lot of stuff here, including the news on Brinkley's work. Should

make for good list fodder today.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:25:27 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      OTR -- Reading

 

Reminder for those in the New York City area.  The St. Marks Poetry Project wil

l be hosting a marathon reading of On The Road begainning at 7:00 p.m. this eve

ning.  Admission $7.50.  Free to poetry project members.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:03:39 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's "Books"

 

Tim, please forward the description.  thanks, sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:36:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: USA Today

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane De Rooy wrote:

> 

> To get to the OTR 40th Anniversary story in the 9/24/97 USA Today online, go

> here: http://www.usatoday.com/life/enter/books/leb848.htm

> 

> I just glanced at it, but was happy to see they'd included the one-man play

> written and performed by Vince Balestri that's been playing most of the year

> here in Seattle. I've seen it twice and will see it one more time before the

> run ends on 5 October.

> 

> 

> diane

 

This isn't exactly along the lines ... but was driving Northwest on

Spear Boulvd in Denver and as i was passing Larimer it hit me that was

where Jack was dumped off way back when.

 

Tons of stuff going on there ... banners and balloons and folks moving

around everywhere (all out of the corner of my eye at 50 mph or so)...

 

So i get over to the Federal area around 36 and pick up Benita for

breakfast and say "what's going on down on Larimer?  is it some kind of

kerouac celebration?"  No it's just Octoberfest she says.  And then

after a bit i looked at my watch and saw that it was September.  "Why

Octoberfest in September?  Doesn't that usually come in October?"  It

snows here in October.  Oh.

 

Drive on to Pete's Kitchen ... wonderful Greek omelet.  Good atmosphere.

Good coffee

 

Pete's Kitchen is located at Colfax and RACE in Denver.  I definitely

had to take a picture of that street sign and even got a bit of the

diner in the background.

 

have a fun day.  i head off for KC this weekend.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:08:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Hitchhiking

In-Reply-To:  <9709130211.aa19931@mail.cruzio.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Getting back to some old posts.

 

On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Leon Tabory wrote:

 

>  Thanks for the clarification. I am relieved.

> 

> I was hoping there were no dark foreboding underpinning there. We are on the

> same wave length. Surfing the good waves. A bit of real danger is there.

> Surprising, stunning new vistas all the time. Maybe even a cherished belief

> threatened here and there. Right now a sudden thought. How many wonderful

> people, creative outpourings, hidden corners of world wide  treasures, leap

> into full view in my  mind through this screen.  How much brilliant light is

> jumping out of the many facets of the jewels of the best minds, turning

> right in front of me, spinning, delicately engaging. Between the fingertips

> of loving dedicated experts on life as well as on books , lucky to have made

> their way close to the pioneering adventures of the mind, the great

> adventurers who spin them, pioneers of our age. So happy to see you all

> passing by. Flashes of the worlds of fiction and of reality. Had no idea of

> the possibilities of hitching rides in the skies,

> friends zooming by our paths.Look at that! Awesome. So much fascinating

> stuff to unfold. The stuff of our lives, diamonds in the rough.The Beat-L

> hitchiking gang. What  a ride to hitch. Including our newest acquaintance

> Yan  who took us off on this ride where we also met the clear eyes of the

> young girl begging in China. Don't we all wish we could know her more too?

> Are we going to run into her another time?

 

I have no comment on the above paragraph, Leon, except for the fact that I

wanted to quote it in its entirety because of the great writing.

 

 

> By the way, did you notice Rinaldo's photo on his list site?

> http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm I wonder what the huge stack of papers is

> about? Ask Rinaldo? O.K. I am asking you Rinaldo. Where you heading there

> with that mysterious armful load?

 

Yeah Rinaldo, what is that stack of papers (and is that you in the foto)?

 

 

> That reminded me to take another look at your site. So how is copyleft

> progressing? It may not seem beat related right off hand, but I think how

> relevant it would be for future Kerouacs, etc, in a world where copyleft

> replaced royalties and other restraints upon creative happiness and gifts to

> the world.

 

Well the more I experiment with it the more I see just how Beat-related it

is -- at least in terms of the philosophical issues involved, which really

is what it's all about anyway. Richard Stallman gave a great speech about

this which is transcribed at

<http://www.gnu.ai.mit.edu/philosophy/stallman-kth.html>. In it, he says,

 

   Now the spiritual harm that goes with this kind of material harm, is in the

   spirit of self-sufficiency. When a person spends a lot of time using a

   computer system, the configuration of that computer system becomes the city

   that he lives in. Just as the way our houses and furniture are laid out,

   determines what it's like for us to live among them, so that the computer

   system that we use, and if we can't change the computer system that we use

   to suit us, then our lives are really under the control of others. And a

   person who sees this becomes in a certain way demoralized: `It's no use

   trying to change those things, they're always going to be bad. No point even

   hassling it. I'll just put in my time and ..... when it's over I'LL go away

   and try not to think about it any more''. That kind of spirit, that

   unenthusiasm is what results from not being permitted to make things better

   when you have feelings of public spirit.

 

The same is true for _any_ information. There is an interesting relationship

between information and those who comprehend it -- the information becomes

_part_ of them. If you cannot modify it or duplicate it (ie, re-think it),

then you become demoralized. So in a very real way, copyleft is about

freedom -- the freedom to live and think in an information-rich society.

Free information (in the sense of freedom, not necessarily price) allows for

cooperation -- those who push proprietary information and put restrictions

on their once-digital invisible, enternally regenerative wealth-to-humanity

"intellectual property" seek to divide us, and to disallow free thought on

an individual or group level. They will also find that they are facing an

impossible task -- copyright is dead anyway, and those trapped in the old

world will find that trying to enforce their so-called "ownership" of

humanity's wealth (our combined explorations in Universe and its resultant

data) will find it to be as difficult as trying to catch the waves of the

ocean. The ocean's waves and our digital conversations share an important

property -- they exist in pure principle, they are invisible, weightless,

without mass and can be described soley in pure angle and frequency.

 

Which is sort of why I don't believe in any One True Text, but only

versions, interpretations and revisions. Also why I'd like to see some of

the great works by our beloved Beat authors put into digital form. Once such

a thing happens, Kerouac's dream could come true. As Arthur Nusbaum pointed

out, JK is quoted on the back cover of VOC as saying, "In my old age, I

intend to collect all my work and re-insert my pantheon of uniform names,

leave the long shelf full of books there, and die happy." If only he could

have sensed the unfolding electronic revolution, but in 1969 it was only

readily apparant to a few scientists at the world's universities.

 

The old way is scared, and are making desperate attempts. My Wired News

story on the new Divx technology at

<http://www.wired.com/news/news/6947.html> shows what Hollywood is trying to

do to protect the information in their movies -- make a playback system that

will disallow the user to do anything with the information but play it back

(and pause or stop it). Their attempts will prove futile, but -- like music

and literature -- I usually prefer the indies to today's corporate league

anyway.

 

What they would really like is Michael Buchenroth's scenario:

 

On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:

 

> Why would I or anyone else pay for access to your literary database when

> practically everything you store exists elsewhere in public domain free?

> Your site taxes the spirit of the web; defrauds the human species . . .

> ***

> The evolution of human consciousness, if up to institutions such as

> Chadwyck-Healey Ltd, would begin immediately following birth with an

> electrode implantation into each new-born human brain stem connected via

> infra red to a meter not much different than an electric usage meter

> power companies now employ on the side of houses to measure and bill

> customer electricity usage! Only your meter would measure and charge

> thought, for learning each new declamation; every CNS protoplasmic

> propagation, aha potassium reduction the wheel spins 10-cents faster;

> sodium rushing in there location cell AX2956892919 degrees,

> BY2956891219568 degrees, CZ34589, the meter trips signaling Dave's

> Culligan on Main Street that humanoid Dave2001xyz99 needs electrolyte

> home delivery (must keep protoplasmic harmony, electrolytic super

> efficiency, the business plans calls for it) the power grid network'd

> measures blip blip, somewhere a first grader for first time speaks

> "Alice meets Jip. See Jip run? Run Jip run." Elsewhere the grid hums,

> Chuckie learns a pun.

 

I had a dream the night before I read this where a future company had

invented a nanotech billing system for air -- huge plumes of these

microscopic, FDA-approved billing agents would spew out of factory towers,

filling the sky with their invisible mass. You'd breathe them in with the

air, and their meters would record the amount and make micropayments from

your account -- the legal entity of Obnoxico, once having made use of this

human-invented technology, would use it to bring their self-imposed

"ownership" of our once-free air. Only the rich would breathe the good stuff.

 

 

m

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:17:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Hitchhiking

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Michael Stutz wrote:

> 

>                      as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

>                      WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

 

Mike,

 

so how do you get all the different posts into one post?  My city is

probably as large as most of y'alls computers minus a hamster or two but

i imagine i've only looked out my bathroom door and not yet even begun

to explore the whole damn computernetwork neighborhood.  I really like

the way you weave together different posts and wonder how to do this.

Does it take some kind of diploma?  Also interested in whether there is

an easy way to download e-mail files into wordprocessing files.  Is this

a mere fantasy on my part or is it something someone with a mechanical

IQ of negative 35 can actually do?

 

Of course others are welcome to answer these things as well.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

p.s.  I highly recommend that everyone read the first section/chapter

whatever in CPlymell's Last of the Moc's.  His ideas expressed there

about the Grim Reaper provide a lot of fasincating context to this

funerealish year.  I've been planning for a day now to create some

elaborate post about old GR the deathman incorporating CP's words and

some of the materials from The various deathish and eulogistic threads

of the past months but just now i said ... fuck that!  can't do it

justice.  or i'm too lazy.  just everyone read Charley!

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:12:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Imploding Text ... something fun yet serious

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hey all,

 

well since my last post and a shower and listening to seven souls (now

listening to Louis Armstrong) i had a bright idea.  Can't say it is a

full blown light bulb but it seems to be somewhere between a dull haze

and a black light.

 

i was lucky enough to be involved in s.a. griffin's exploding text of

Allen Ginsberg's "On Burroughs Work" last year.  I was surprised that

s.a. even knew the right touches to have it printed in a nice little red

pamphlet and even had something that said Rose of Sharon press on it -

which has impressed the hell out of some of my old friends - - which

makes me laugh a lot -- but it also ruined my lifelong attempt to

challenge the publish or perish mentality.  Hoping that somehow in not

publishing i could be immortal.

 

But mortality is our lot and despite the best efforts to write or not

write our way past these physical limitations it appears that we all

croak one day or another.

 

And mortality is a universal theme of our lives.  We face it with nearly

every step.  And yet somehow we stride on.  It seems, though i am still

fairly new to this wonderful group of writers called 'beat' (beat being

synonymous with rhubarb) that death and mortality is something that is

mentioned in more than just passing in much of the writings that are

becoming known as Beat Generation Literature.  This seems true of the

Big three or four or five and even of the much larger lists that are

accumulating from across the waters near Pound's centre of the

universe.  (Rinaldo = the postcard you sent me of venice still sits

proudly leaning on my computer monitor).

 

So my idea was precisely the opposite of the exploding text and it is an

imploding beat text on the ideas of death, mortality, immortality,

funerals, blah blah blah....I think that it can provide some fun.  I

think it can give something for a much wider range of listmembers to

participate in, and i think that it can be a creative implosion -

perhaps alchemical - that provides some closure to a rather odd year.

 

So exactly what do i mean by this imploding text?  Of course, i'm never

certain and i hate to be pinned down to definitions - but here is a

preliminary title and a fragmentary map of the territory i am

considering.  The title would be "Eulogy for the Eulogy: OR a Wake of

Words" (note the definite Underdog style in the title).  Everyone just

picks a line, a sentence, a poetic fragment from someone "beatish" and

includes it in a stream of quotations.  No academic strings to attempt

to interpret just letting the Beat-words speak for themselves.  Be

certain to keep the fragments brief to respect copyrights and whatnot.

A little dash after the quotation with the writer and the place you

found it would be nice of course.

 

So once again where did this idea pop from.  Perhaps when i was

shaving.  I heard that Einstein once said he had his best ideas while

shaving.  I usually am lucky to get by without a cut throat.  So it was

probably in the shower and i had been thinking of death a lot as of late

and i had so thoroughly enjoyed the thoughts it caused to creep into me

and all the bardo stuff from this weekend of course, and this whole

year, and i have to think that the coffee table copy of Bartlett's

quotations in WSB's home the morning after the memorial service probably

had an influence.  At any rate, the idea has sprung from my brain in

full foam as you can see.  I hope folks will join in.  I hope that a

wide range of writers get "imploded" and the collection of words may

actually mean something when it is through ... if it is ever through

(this appears a thread that could be eternal) ... so i'll start it off.

Whoever follows me just eliminate all this garbage of words and type a

quotation after the one i do and send it along to the List.  I hope

others find this fun too!  dbr

 

"The reaper trims his own cosmic garden, if there were too many of this

or that cosmic thread, too much here, not enough there, disconnected or

plucked from this dual reality, this cosmic thread needed to make the

total weave of existence come out right, or that with the proper pattern

in the proper time and space -- or maybe they were selected with a

certain type life thread to string together molecules and tie them

together in that mirror of anti-matter."

        -- Charles Plymell, The Last of the Moccasins, 1971, 1996

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:13:21 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      [nameless beatnicks] Re: Imploding Text ... something fun yet

              serious

In-Reply-To:  <34294A0F.5F48@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

david,

 

call me wrong but i've a feel with the

missing beat, noname beats,

 

cari saluti,

rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:21:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19970920011531.26f78836@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Well, it seems as though I have started a debate.  I'm dropping by the

video store tonight, I'll read the jacket of the movie.

 

Jorgiana

 

 

On Sat, 20 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

 

> At 10:38 PM 9/19/97 -0000, you wrote:

> >Mike,

> >

> >        No, no, no. . .  Reeves was not portraying Kerouac.  The entire

> movie was

> >based on a letter from Neal TO Jack. . .  how then would Jack be in the

> >movie?  Why would Neal write a letter to Kerouac explaining to him the

> >events that he had a been a party to?

> >        The character's name bore no resemblance to Jack Kerouac and if I

> recall

> >correctly, the character was supposed to be about ten years older than

> >Neal.  I certainly don't claim to be a Kerouackian expert, but there's no

> >way that anyone should mistake the Keanu Reeves character for Jack Kerouac.

> > The guy had absolutely no personality, no drive for life, no gusto,

> >nothing but playing pool in shitty little pub. . . and his damn egg nog. .

> >.  Jack drank wine, not egg nog.

> >

> >Bruce

> >bwhartmanjr@iname.com

> >http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

> >

> 

> Was Neal called Neal?  I don't remember, and I don't really care

> what anyone was called, and I don't care if the letter was

> based on a letter Jack wrote, though it is not my sense that

> the letter was from Jack.  I know what the film was about, it

> was mostly about Neal, but it was sprinkled with a little manque

> Jack.  As for the covering of the Keanu character.  They can't use

> a Jack character without the permission of the Heirs.  Cassady is

> so little known by mainstream folks that they would HAVE TO HAVE

> a more recognized member of the Beats to even put this story on

> the screen.  That member is Kerouac, and Reeves plays him, just as

> a little seasoning in a story about Neal.

> 

> Mike Rice

> 

 

* You can always tell a Texan, but not much.*

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:26:15 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.96.970920124042.2486A-100000@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

>>Don't mind my snipping:

> I do think the director/writer did use his artistic license in trying to

> make Keanu "Kerouacesque" as much as possible, just as he did with the

> character who shared a suit with Neal.  That character was closer to Allen

> Ginsberg than Keanu Reeves was to Kerouac.

>>No more snipping:

> 

> Warmest Regards,

> 

> Bob Whiteley

> 

 

 

But Ginsberg was portrayed in the film if I remember correctly.  Even

hints to a little homosexual tension between Neal and Allen.

 

Jorgiana

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:27:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: ESSENCE & LONGING

In-Reply-To:  <3424464E.4FFB@sunflower.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 20 Sep 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Chad J Blanchard wrote:

> patricia wrote,

> looks like spam to me.

> p

 

 

Nice use of cap's as well!

Jorgiana>

 

* You can always tell a Texan, but not much.*

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:33:00 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

In-Reply-To:  <970921141132_-61831279@emout01.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> Mike,

> I don't want to sound pushy or anything, but i really don't think it was

> supposed to be Jack, but i'm just taking it from the context of the letter.

> So, maybe i'm wrong, but that will change my entire opinion about the movie.

> So, was the character "Benjamin" supposed to be Allen? I suspected that the

> director threw him in it for fun. Its not that I want to prove you wrong, but

> Keanu Reeves as JK, gimme a break, that would be awful. If anyone has any

> info. to add about this, i would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

>                    ~~Marlene

 

See???  THAT'S what is scary.  Like anyone can watch him without a

continuous chant of keanu keanu keanu keanu going thru one's head!  Poor

casting choice if that was indeed the idea...but EGG NOG?

 

Jorgiana>

 

* You can always tell a Texan, but not much.*

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:40:38 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: N.Y. TIMES -  last Suicide review

Comments: To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

In-Reply-To:  <199709232042.QAA23495@kanga.INS.CWRU.Edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Diane M. Homza wrote:

 

> Reply to message from duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU of Mon, 22 Sep

> >

> >

> >          PRODUCTION NOTES:

> >

> >          'THE LAST TIME I COMMITTED SUICIDE'

> >

> >          With: Thomas Jane (Neal Cassady), Keanu Reeves (Harry),

> >          Adrien Brody (Ben), Claire Forlani (Joan) and Gretchen

> >          Mol (Cherry Mary). Written and directed by Stephen Kay;

> >          based on a letter written by Neal Cassady to Jack

> >          Kerouac; director of photography, Bobby Bukowski; edited

> >          by Dorian Harris; music by Tyler Bates; production

> >          designer, Amy Ancona; produced by Edward Bates and

> >          Louise Rosner; released by Kushner-Locke Company, Roxie

> >          Releasing and Tapestry Films.

> >

> 

> 

> Does anyone know if this Stephen Kay is a Beat enthusiast?  It makes me

> wonder how he happened upon this project...I don't think the letter is much

> known outside of the Beat Enthusiast realm.  Oh, cure my wonderings,

> someone!  (and I greatly apologize if this has been discussed before & I

> just don't pay attention & the colelctive compnay decides to exile me

> from posting anymore)

> 

> Diane. (H)

 

 

Okay, and if anyone didn't notice, I have been out of town all weekend

and OBVIOUSLY my mail reads backwards when going thru 175 messages.  My

appologies for all the messages regarding this movie.  I feel silly.

Sorry again...

 

Jorgiana

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:17:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: [nameless beatnicks] Re: Imploding Text ... something fun yet

              serious

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> 

> david,

> 

> call me wrong but i've a feel with the

> missing beat, noname beats,

> 

> cari saluti,

> rinaldo.

 

i'm not calling you wrong at all.  i love your project.  i hope that it

can bring new ideas into the thread i suggested.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:24:12 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: [nameless beatnicks] Re: Imploding Text ... something fun yet

              serious

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> 

> david,

> 

> call me wrong but i've a feel with the

> missing beat, noname beats,

> 

> cari saluti,

> rinaldo.

 

A tomb for the Unknown Beatnik, dead of an overdose or America's

neglect,  another memorial service among the memorial services during

this rough year for Beat icons, leave worn out bongos and very scratchy

Charlie Parker albums--an eternal flame of alternating pot and cigarette

smoke flickers . . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:05:53 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Douglas Brinkley and Kerouac (and America)

In-Reply-To:  <970922155800_1630061747@emout11.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Oh, how I love my electronic friends!  I just picked up USA Today and

there is an article in it (along with a loverly fuzzy picture of JK in a

suit).

 

Two new books: Some of the Dharma and a special edition of OTR.  Also a

really hopping poetry reading tonight.  More books (Viking) in 2001 and

2002 (what a wait).

 

Thanks for letting us know!

 

Jorgiana

 

On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Diane De Rooy wrote:

 

> In a message dated 97-09-22 14:42:06 EDT, you write:

> 

> <<

>  I talked to Professor Brinkley on the phone yesterday.  He is in the

>  process of editing Jack's road diaries (120 volumes of them!!) and a few

>  pages will come out in the New Yorker this December.  He is also writing a

>  biography on Kerouac  >>

> 

> I understand it's true about the OTR journals, but I'm given to understand

> there are not necessarily firm plans for a biography by Brinkley.

> 

> Apparently there will be a feature story on the subject in Wednesday's

> USAToday. Anyway, that's what I hear.

> 

> diane

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:18:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         NormNDy Farm <sheeper@LAN2WAN.COM>

Organization: AniMules, Inc.

Subject:      Who is Who?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Hi.

We're currently reading *On The Road* in class right now, and got to

wondering about the true identity of some of the characters in the book.

Obvioulsy, Dean Moriarity is Neal Cassady, but what about the other

characters? Does anyone know who Carlo, Ed Dunkel and the others are? Is

Carlo actually Ginsberg? And is Kerouac's 'aunt' really his mother?

Thanks for your input!

Norm

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:39:11 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who is Who?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

> Hi.

> We're currently reading *On The Road* in class right now, and got to

> wondering about the true identity of some of the characters in the book.

> Obvioulsy, Dean Moriarity is Neal Cassady, but what about the other

> characters? Does anyone know who Carlo, Ed Dunkel and the others are? Is

> Carlo actually Ginsberg? And is Kerouac's 'aunt' really his mother?

> Thanks for your input!

carlo marx- allen ginsberg

ed dunkel- ed sanders(?)

aunt- mom

old bull- william s. burruoghs

that's it from the top of my head

levi- don't you have a page about this?

> Norm

> 

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:06:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      forgot to add

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Forgot to add:

 

Jane Lee is Joan Vollmer - the wife who WSB accidently killed portraying

William tell in Mexico

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:56:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Who is Who?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:18 PM 9/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi.

>We're currently reading *On The Road* in class right now, and got to

>wondering about the true identity of some of the characters in the book.

>Obvioulsy, Dean Moriarity is Neal Cassady, but what about the other

>characters? Does anyone know who Carlo, Ed Dunkel and the others are? Is

>Carlo actually Ginsberg? And is Kerouac's 'aunt' really his mother?

>Thanks for your input!

>Norm

> 

Carlo Marx is Allen Ginsberg

Sal's (JK) aunt is his mother

Old Bull Lee is WSB

Tom Saybrook is John Cellon Holmes

Elmo Hassel is Herbert Huncke

Lucille is based on a relationship with a girl name Pauline

I believe Rocco is Paul Blake - his brother-in-law

I think that Camille is LuAnn Henderson and Marylou is Carolyn Cassady but

i often mix the two up.  Maybe someone else can clear this up.

Rollo Greb is Alan Ansen

 

This is ehat I have so far.  All but Rocco, Camille and Marylou are

certain.  Can any one else add anything?

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:43:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <vmooney@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who is Who?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Jonathan Pickle writes:

 

> I think that Camille is LuAnn Henderson and Marylou is Carolyn Cassady

but

> i often mix the two up.  Maybe someone else can clear this up.

 

Yeah, you've got these two reversed...Camille is Carolyn, Marylou is LuAnn.

 

Also, Randy Royal writes:

 

>ed dunkel- ed sanders(?)

 

Ed Dunkel is Ed Hinkel, not Sanders.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:30:47 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Robert De Niro, the beat.

In-Reply-To:  <34294A0F.5F48@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>From: neato@pipeline.com

>neato says:

>robert deniro- father of the actor robert deniro..he was a street poet and

>artist..his art is included in some of the poetry journals of the

>time...kerouac mentions him in one of his books

 

friends, i've the same interest in this subjest, it's possible

to track robert deniro thru jack kerouac works? as his true name

or pseudonym. anyone has notice of de niro's beat father?

cari saluti da rinaldo.

-*-

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:11:50 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

I just started my Beat Gen. Course at UEA (here in the UK),

and I am well chuffed to find that a)it's run by a guy who's

just finished a biography of WSB, and b)Caroline Cassady

(sic?) is comming to speak to us.

Sing Ho!  For the life of a bear!

 

Tom H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"This is the way the world ends, not with a bang but a

whimper."

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:52:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Robert De Niro, the beat.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:30 AM 9/25/97 +0200, you wrote:

>>From: neato@pipeline.com

>>neato says:

>>robert deniro- father of the actor robert deniro..he was a street poet and

>>artist..his art is included in some of the poetry journals of the

>>time...kerouac mentions him in one of his books

> 

>friends, i've the same interest in this subjest, it's possible

>to track robert deniro thru jack kerouac works? as his true name

>or pseudonym. anyone has notice of de niro's beat father?

>cari saluti da rinaldo.

>-*-

>I will put it on the page in the near future..Thank-you! Paul of TKQ...

"Do not cumber yourself with fruitless pains to mend and remedy remote effects;

     let the soul be erect, and all things go well."  Ralph Waldo Emerson,

"The Transcendentalist"

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:33:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      south

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Dear beat-l. I will be leaving for Austin on Friday, Lena will be in

charge of any emmergency beat postings.  I will be traveling for two

weeks. Any sugggestion on readings or music in that media rich town. I

will be visiting the green building folks.  I travel through Oklahoma on

the way there, and will return by Louisiana and Arkansas, Missouri,

maybe Rolla, then Kansas,  GOD I love geography.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:52:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 01:11 PM 9/25/97 BST, you wrote:

>I just started my Beat Gen. Course at UEA (here in the UK),

>and I am well chuffed to find that a)it's run by a guy who's

>just finished a biography of WSB, and b)Caroline Cassady

>(sic?) is comming to speak to us.

>Sing Ho!  For the life of a bear!

> 

>Tom H.

>http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

>"This is the way the world ends, not with a bang but a

>whimper."

> 

> 

You Brits have all the luck.  We have to pay dearly

for such elaborate beat service.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:05:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Jon B. Pearlstone" <THYE@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: USA Today

 

I missed the USA Today piece yesterday--having trouble searching for it on

line--can someone give me the exact name and author of the article--any

details would be appreciated--if you could e-mail it and save me the time

that would be even better.

 

Thanks.

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:40:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's "Books"

In-Reply-To:  <v03007815b04ee0343ab6@[203.216.28.124]>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Timothy Hoffman wrote:

 

>         Starting "Some of the Dharma", I was impressed with the notes

> displayed in the endcovers in which Kerouac had classified and outlined the

> guidelines of his system of different writing types, including such

> categories as: Blues, Dreams, Dharmas, Pops, Tics, Visions, Sketches, etc.

> (which eventually were published as "Book of Blues", "Book of Dreams",

> "Visions of Gerard/Cody", etc.)

 

Cool. Sounds a lot like the system Fitzgerald had. If you've never seen it,

and are interested, there's a book out there called _The Notebooks of F.

Scott Fitzgerald_, edited by Bruccoli. It contains categories such as Bright

Clippings, Conversation and Things Overheard, Jingles and Songs, Karacters,

and Moments (What people do).

 

Does _Some of the Dharma_ go into this system in any depth, or say when he

started using it?

 

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:36:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: south

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:33 AM 9/25/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Dear beat-l. I will be leaving for Austin on Friday, Lena will be in

>charge of any emmergency beat postings.  I will be traveling for two

>weeks. Any sugggestion on readings or music in that media rich town. I

>will be visiting the green building folks.  I travel through Oklahoma on

>the way there, and will return by Louisiana and Arkansas, Missouri,

>maybe Rolla, then Kansas,  GOD I love geography.

>p

> 

I am from just north of Austin and used to spend a lot of time there.

Sixth Street is great to meet a lot of people as is The Drag(Guadalupe

around 30th street)  All around the UT campus you can find many great

people.  The best bookstore in the world is Book People located at sixth

and Lamar (West of the interstate.)  Anything else I can help you with let

me know.  I've got a lot of great friends down there in case you need some

help once you get there.

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:03:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: SPIN

 

Adam,

 I understand where you were coming from. Sorry if i sounded rude in my post,

but I didn't want the fellow listers to get the wrong impression of

coffehouses. Thankyou for your post, don'y worry I'm not offended. :)

 

                                                ~~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:47:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Web Page Addition: Kicks joy darkness

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I added a page of pull quotes citing various reviews of kicks joy darkness.

Hope you enjoy and thanks to those who sent me the book covers! To see the

new page go to:

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/kicksjoydarkness.html

 

 

                              Thank-you,

                               Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly. . .

"Do not cumber yourself with fruitless pains to mend and remedy remote effects;

     let the soul be erect, and all things go well."  Ralph Waldo Emerson,

"The Transcendentalist"

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:44:02 -0400

Reply-To:     Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: your mail

In-Reply-To:  <ECS9709251350A@smtp.uea.ac.uk>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Tom Harberd wrote:

 

> I just started my Beat Gen. Course at UEA (here in the UK),

> and I am well chuffed to find that a)it's run by a guy who's

> just finished a biography of WSB,

 

Who's the guy, and when's the bio coming out?

 

Can't be so glib with tid-bits like that Tom!

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:36:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: USA Today

 

Like most online daily newspapers, the USA Today link is only good for the

day the story is published, which was Wednesday, Sept. 24. Important stories

are archived at the website, but usually not right away.

 

For your interest, and for others who may not have had a chance to get there

while it existed, I'm pasting the entire story below, sans graphics, which

was a shot of the cover of "Some of the Dharma."

================================

<headline>40 years traveling Kerouac's 'Road'

<subhead>The kicks just keep coming for followers of Jack Kerouac.

<Picture><Sidebar>

(Excerpt)

A Vision of Sweet Heaven

 

Things in the world are absent - not really there - I'm unhappy because my

life is cold and strange - But it only appears to be so. In reality, there is

no basis on which I can lay claim that I am not what I have thought. It's all

gone, absent. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. We are taught to die. Long

suffering gets even worse. There is absolutely no hope, and by the same law

there's no sin. Rejoice in the moment, regulators of the world! Heaven is

very silent.

 

- From Some of the Dharma by Jack Kerouac

 

<Lead>This month marks the 40th anniversary of the publication of On the

Road, the author's seminal novel of Americana. Its original publisher, Viking

Press - which published the novel Sept. 5, 1957, for $3.95 - has served up a

commemorative double shot with a never-before-published book by Kerouac

called Some of the Dharma, $32.95, and a special edition of On the Road,

$24.95.

     And Wednesday night in New York, the Poetry Project marks the event with

an all-night marathon reading of On the Road at St. Mark's

Church-in-the-Bowery. Among the 90 or so expected readers are jazz musician

and Kerouac friend David Amram (who starts the reading at 7 p.m. ET);

Kerouac's original literary agent, Sterling Lord; editor Richard Seaver;

musicians Maggie Estep, Richard Hell and Lee Ranaldo (of Sonic Youth); and

Columbia University historian Ann Douglas.

Viking also has announced that it bought the rights to Kerouac's unpublished

journals, photographs, tape recordings and other belongings for a definitive

biography, due in the fall of 2001, and three volumes of journal entries, the

first due in 2002.

     "Jack sort of saved everything," says Viking's Paul Slovak. "Readers

will see American culture through Kerouac's eyes."

     As a teen in Lowell, Mass., and up until his death in St. Petersburg,

Fla., in 1969, Kerouac continually wrote - in neat script - in spiral

notebooks. He described daily happenings and included poems, riddles, doodles

and prayers, says Douglas Brinkley, a University of New Orleans historian

editing the journals and writing the biography.

     The first journals to be published (the collection of notebooks has been

stored in a bank vault in Lowell, Mass., since the writer's death) will be

those written between 1947 and 1951 while Kerouac was traveling throughout

the USA and Mexico. Those writings were the basis for On the Road, Brinkley

says.

     On the Road (written in 1951, but turned down by publishers until six

years later) and Kerouac's other works (The Town and the City, The Dharma

Bums, Desolation Angels) are largely autobiographical. Most are written in

his spontaneous prose, a literary approach akin to jazz, specifically "bop,"

as played by Charlie Parker and others. Kerouac's scatological stories

detailed his life and those of his friends, among them Allen Ginsberg, Neal

Cassady and William Burroughs.

     In the novels, he and his compatriots get pseudonyms, but in Kerouac's

journals, Brinkley says, "you get the real Ginsberg, the real Burroughs and

Cassady . . . and others."

     Overall, the journals represent "an absolutely amazing historical

document of one of the great literary voices of our time," Brinkley says.

     Interest in Kerouac is on the rise, and his legacy has prompted a

multimedia blitz. Last year, musicians such as R.E.M.'s Michael Stipe, actors

Johnny Depp and Matt Dillon, and writers Hunter S. Thompson and Lawrence

Ferlinghetti were among those who contributed to a CD compilation based on

Kerouac writings called kicks joy darkness.

     Recent Kerouac books include The Portable Jack Kerouac (Penguin, $14.95)

and the reissued Jack Kerouac: Selected Letters, 1940-1956 (Penguin, $15.95),

both edited by Kerouac biographer Ann Charters. A second collected-letters

volume is due next year. Talk continues about a film based on On the Road,

too.

     In Seattle, performance artist Vincent Balestri's one-man show, Kerouac:

The Essence of Jack, has been playing for nearly a year at the Velvet Elvis

Arts Lounge Theater in Pioneer Square.

     Now, Balestri is reading Some of the Dharma and plans to add a scene

based on it to his show in time for the Oct. 25 anniversary of its one-year

run. He describes Dharma as a "quite intense" work in which Kerouac tried to

merge Buddhism and Catholicism into his own take on religion.

     Just as Kerouac "shook the foundations of the establishment of

literature," Balestri says, the writer also was "prescient" in foreseeing

that Eastern thought would become accepted by many Westerners.

     The journals will continue to help Kerouac "become more acceptable as a

literary genius," he says.

     Brinkley doesn't expect Kerouac's luster to fade in the time it takes to

get the journals and biography to press. That's because his writing continues

to capture young, inquiring minds. For Gen Xers and those younger, Kerouac,

who died at age 47, represents someone who put friends and lifestyle above

occupation and material things. "Today's young people identify with him,"

Brinkley says. "Kerouac didn't look for a job. Kerouac lived."

 

--By Mike Snider, USA TODAY

===============================

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:14:13 CDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Lundburg, Wes" <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject:      Re: Who is who?

 

The following is an attached Text item from cc:Mail.  It contains

information that had to be encoded to ensure successful transmission

through various mail systems.  To decode the file use the UUDECODE

program.

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M"CX@8VAA<F%C=&5R<S\@1&]E<R!A;GEO;F4@:VYO=R!W:&\@0V%R;&\L($5D

M($1U;FME;"!A;F0@=&AE(&]T:&5R<R!A<F4_($ES#0H^($-A<FQO(&%C='5A

M;&QY($=I;G-B97)G/R!!;F0@:7,@2V5R;W5A8R=S("=A=6YT)R!R96%L;'D@

M:&ES(&UO=&AE<C\-"CX@5&AA;FMS(&9O<B!Y;W5R(&EN<'5T(0T*#0I"97EO

M;F0@2V5R;W5A8R`H4V%L(%!A<F%D:7-E*2!A;F0@0V%S<V%D>2`H1&5A;B!-

M;W)I87)I='DI+"!H97)E)W,@=&AE(&QI<W0@9G)O;2`@#0I?5&AE(%!O<G1A

M8FQE($)E870@4F5A9&5R7R`H960N(&)Y($%N;B!#:&%R=&5R<RDZ#0H-"D-A

M<FQO($UA<G@@/2!!;&QE;B!':6YS8F5R9PT*3VQD($)U;&P@3&5E(#T@5RY3

M+B!"=7)R;W5G:',-"D5L;65R($AA<W-E;"`]($AE<F)E<G0@2'5N8VME#0H-

M"E-E96US(&QI:V4@22=V92!S965N(&$@;6]R92!C;VUP;&5T92!L:7-T('-O

L;65P;&%C92P@8G5T($D@9&]N)W0@<F5C86QL('=H97)E+@T*+2TM5V5S#0H`

 

end

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:23:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Some net-based Burroughs research

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:43:16 +0200

From: BAUDRON Isabelle <baudron@interpc.fr>

To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>

 

<snipped>

 

Dear friends,

 

One month and a half after the beginning of this adventure,

around 80 people who wrote to Burroughs' Memorial asked for

being kept in touch or participating.  I also send this to

eleven people, who did not kept in touch after getting the

machine, in case they would be interested

in the following, as a test : but in case anybody does not

want to be involved anymore, please

tell me, and I shall take you our of the address book.

 

>From all the propositions and subjects of interests, we

have several groups :

 

 

1. WEB SITE:

 

Most of people think we need a web site to publish our

texts, the news concerning the activities of the group,

etc. So do I. Some people have already begun to work at it.

You can see the first results at :

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/gary.leeming/index.htm

 

Gary is taking the site in charge. So you can contact him

at <gary.leeming@ukonline.co.uk>

 

 

We can also use the site to make a magazine, every 3 month

for instance.

 

 For those who are not used to make web pages, as I was 3

days ago, it is quite simple to make with the computer

itself which contains the elements to make it : it took me

an afternoon using the help included in the computer to

learn to make it.

 

 

2. MUSICIANS AND PERFORMERS:

 

Tom Matthews proposed to take in charge this group, to

gather archives, recordings,

audio and video-tapes, etc., and to find ways to sell,

exchange, etc., them. You can join him at:

 

< tmathews@MicroAge-tb.com>

 

Tom proposes to print tee shirts and sell them.

 

He is also working on a computer-based version of the

dreamachine (using glasses and a cable

attached to a computer's printer port and has also home

built sound manipulation  hardwares.

 

 

 3 .  POETS, WRITERS :

 

Some people have begun to send texts to include in the book

"Le temps des Naguals"  I have already written, and which

contains interviews and texts of and about Burroughs and

Gysin. I have recorded all the writings sent in a second

part.

 

For those who would like to see their texts published in

the site, I can make a web page for them, but you can also

make it, which would be more personal, so every text could

be as well an art work made by its author. What do you

think?

 

 

4. CONTACTS:

 

Some people would like to be in touch and have exchanges

with other members.

 

For establishing contacts, we have different possibilities:

 

a)  I can make an address book with the names, E-mails

addresses, and main subjects of interest of people who want

to have contacts: for instance :

 

Isabelle Baudron - baudron@interpc.fr - Dreams third mind,

web-site, and exchanges.

 

So everyone wanting to be in the address book can sends me

this, and I include it in a special address book that I

shall send by E-mail to each sender, so it will remain

limited to its members, to preserve privacy.

 

 

        b) We can have a chat-room on ICQ for direct contacts. As

there are members in US, most of countries of Europe and

Australia, it should be possible to get in touch with

someone at any time of day and night. I got a page there

UIN #3146693, where you can also join me. But I have no

experience of chat room, so if you want to contact me

through it, do not

be astonished if it takes some times.

 

        c) We can make a Newsletter, and spread it by E-mail.

 

        d) We can use the web site for exchanges and contacts.

 

        e) Some people have been making groups of E-mail

exchanges. Some people who wrote in the Memorial have also

established their own contacts and groups. In case you

think the result of your exchanges might be valuable for

others and would like to see them published,

we can also include them in the book, with or without your

coordinates, and after you have checked their content.

 

 

5. DREAMS:

 

Several people have been sending dreams, some write them

down and would be interested in a group of research about

it.  I have been noting them since 1981 and am also

interesting in a common work and exchanges.

 

Several people have been making dreams about Burroughs. It

might be interesting to gather them and see what comes out

of it, and what they can teach us on Burroughs influence on

this part of our life. This might be included in the book

as well.

 

 

6. SCIENTIFIC AND MEDICAL RESEARCH:

 

Some people are interested in research in precise domains:

apomorphine, new treatments for quieting anxious people,

for cancer, intoxication, etc.).

 

I am a psychiatric nurse, having stopped working since some

years after 15 years at the hospital. I am interested in

making medical research in the domains of expansion of

conscience, treatments of addiction, (I have the protocol

of apomorphine cure written by Ian Somerville if you want)

cancers, and any treatment allowing to strengthen the

defenses of organism.

 

I propose we use the opportunity of our group to gather

informations in those domains, or others you might have in

mind, and make a group of research with doctors, nurses and

therapists of the group, plus all the people interested. I

do not intend to work in a hospital anymore, but if my

experience can be of any use in the context of this group,

it is at your disposal.

 

 

7. BURROUGHSIAN CONCEPTS AND DOMAINS OF RESEARCH:

 

Some would like to work on specific themes as third-mind,

evil spirit, control, magic, sex, synchronicities, etc. I

am quite interested too by all this.

 

Some people have begun exchanges on those domains.

 

 

8. THE ACADEMY:

 

The idea of making an Academy in a castle, big house, etc.,

is part of the dreams of quite a lot of people. But it

implies practical problems due to a static place which may

not be adapted to our Cyber experiment, and require

spending money to go to the place, etc.

 

To me the main interest for such a place would  be, besides

the Academy which can also be settled on the web, to have a

place where we could meet, and which could be a temporary

shelter for the members of the group who need it, sort of

an Interzone we can come to for making a break out of the

daily context.

 

Anyway for the moment this is not the most urgent thing. We

can begin to use the tools we already got at our disposal.

 

In case an opportunity comes, then I propose we study it

together. But spending time and energy in looking for it

now does not seem adapted for the moment

 

 Max, who is also French, proposes to organize the Academy

as TAZ (temporary autonomous zones) on the web, according

to Hakim Bey's experiment. I still have to get more

informations on the subject because it's new to me. What do

you think?

 

 

9. THE NAME OF OUR GROUP :

Here are the first propositions:

- Tarzan Society

- Ah Pook Academy

- Junkshakes

- The People's Republic of Interzone

- Grey Johnson or Endless Johnson Family or Dead Johnsons

Incorporated

- Invisible Corp

- Beat Hotel

- Room 23

 

 

10 .  LANGUAGES:

 

For the moment we cover the following languages: English,

French, Spanish, German, Dutch, Norwegian, Slovak,

Sweedish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek, Chinese, Japanese.

 

We might use all this knowledge for translations of our

writings, or Burroughs' and Gysin's books, which have not

been translated in some languages. We can make translation

groups, which allows getting to a quick and good result.

 

Some people who have a personal web sites in different

countries could make pages about the group in their

language and link them together, and to our site.

 

 

 

 So this is a set of opportunities we got altogether,

enough to begin to work for the moment.

 

I hope you enjoy it.

 

Thanks again for your concern, propositions and

participation.

 

Love to all.

 

Izzy

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:10:03 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

winterhawk blue/new grass festival

 

mandolins

pick away, frenetically

riding

the wave of bass

and the movement of fiddles swirling-

i sit, barely able to

restrain myself

 from leaping

into the frenzy of sound.

i go out of myself-

i am on my feet

highland kicking

swirling, curling, laughing

alive and spreading

energy,

surrounded by

friends i have not yet met.

 

blue grass

winterhawk

new york

 

farmers wheat field

alchemized for the moment

into a space for love

tolerance

and music!

 

no crowd stampeeds the fence

there *is* no fence

there is only music

and laughing music makers

-on the front stage

-on the side stage

-on the kids=92 stage

music being learned

celebrated and played.

 

all through the night-

i try to lie and sleep

to the

sound of

those who cannot sleep-

fingers movng

sometimes

without volition

but always with love

for the

music.

and

i leap from my tent,

i dance i laugh i sing i swirl

in estatic sleeplesness

beneath the ceiling of  stars-

 

in the tents huddled below,

i dance with and for the

simple joy-

and then comes

daylight:

 

on the main stage:

alison krauss

bela fleck

tony triska

flat pickers

fiddlers

too many to name, too much

for my soul to remember

in detail,

i remember

only the

holy music

the dance.

 

come morning,

in the aisle

i dance in the path

by which

all in come and go

-to water trucks

-to food stands:

i go showering

dancing in the solar water,

i swirl

i laugh

i love

i hug

the first person waiting outside

the shower

naked and happy.

 

i *am* the music

i sleep the music

i wake to the music

i swirl in the

sounds of wonderment

and  enchantment.

 

for three days

surrounded by music

and

not a cop in sight

on this

private land

this

hallowed ground-

i dance

i swirl

i love so much

the lessons learned

at the miles of aisles

created by jerry garcia

so long ago

and only recently

ended.

 

and so i go

where the music is,

always:

i dance

 i swirl

i *am*

music!

love!

dance!

movement!

budda is present!

holy

holy ground

welcoming all.

 

on sunday morning

the gospel

train helps us

pack up and move out -

still

fervent and joyful

no division between

music and

music makers

and the holy dancers-

i am blessed.

 

i

dance in holy dervish wonderment

forever.

 

mc 9/24 (or so)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:01:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      cross Kerouac post from Dylan list

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Here is a cross post from the Dylan news group.  I thought it would be

of interest to the group.

 

____________________________cross post ______________________________

 

You Wrote:

>I would love to see Bob do a song on this subject. Have there been

>any direct references to him in any of Bob's songs?

 

 

Being an avid Kerouac reader, I just finished re-reading Dharma Bums

and throughout it I found myself highlighting words, phrases, and

ideas that are floating all over Dylan's lyrics(having loved Kerouac

first, I didn't realize they were there until I began to understand

Dylan). I had to underline them all and question whether or not that

is where they came from. I don't have my books on me, but I will look

through them again and email you some of my ideas/theories if you

like?

 

I also wonder how Dylan feels about Kerouac now. I have read in

numerous places that Kerouac "hated" Dylan, not because of who he was

but because he represented what Kerouac had come to hate in his last

alcohol induced sad years. Which, according to what I have read, was

anything slightly related to the 60's movement. IMO I don't think

Dylan had anything to do with what Kerouac hated and maybe he would

have enjoyed talking to him because of their (IMO) shared sarcasm,

loneliness, and deep religious (guilty?) convictions.

 

What do you all think? I would love to discuss Dylan and Kerouac.

Please email me privately if there is no Dylan content!

 

thanks,

shannon

 

_____________________________end cross post __________________________

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:06:06 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      edit # 1

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

winterhawk blue/new grass festival

 

mandolins

pick away, frenetically

riding

the wave of bass

and the movement of fiddles swirling-

i sit, barely able to

restrain from leaping

into the frenzy of sound.

 

i go out of myself-

on my feet,

highland kicking

swirling, curling, laughing

alive and spreading

energy,

surrounded by

friends i have not yet met.

 

blue grass

winterhawk

new york

 

a farmers wheat field

alchemized for the moment

into a space for love,

tolerance

and music.

 

no crowd stampeeds the fence

there *is* no fence

there is only music

and laughing music makers

-on the front stage

-on the side stage

-on the kids=92 stage

music being learned,

celebrated and played.

 

all through the night-

i try to lie and sleep

to the

sound of

those who cannot sleep-

fingers movng

sometimes

without volition

but always with love

for the

music-

i leap from my tent,

i dance i laugh i sing i swirl

in estatic sleeplesness

beneath the ceiling of  stars

o=92reaching

the tents huddled below,

dancing imbued with

simple joy.

 

when comes the

daylight:

on the main stage:

alison krauss

bela fleck

tony triska

flat pickers-

fiddlers-

too many to name, too much

for my mind to remember

(yet imprinted in my soul)

in detail,

remembering

only the

holy music-

the dance.

 

come morning,

in the aisle

i dance the path

by which

all in come and go

-to water trucks

-to food stands:

dancing.

i go showering

dancing in the solar water,

i swirl

i laugh

i love

i hug

the first person waiting outside

the shower

naked and happy.

 

i *am* the music

i sleep the music

i wake to music

i swirl,

in the sounds

of wonderment-

enchantment.

 

for three days

surrounded by music

and

not a cop in sight

on this

private land

this

hallowed ground-

i dance

i swirl,

 

i live

the lessons learned

in the miles of aisles

created by jerry garcia

so long ago-

recently

bereft in life,

but not in spirit-

 

and so i go

where the music is,

always:

i dance

i swirl

i *am*

music!

love!

dance!

movement!

budda is present!

holy!

holy ground

welcoming all.

 

on sunday morning

the gospel

train helps us

pack up and move out -

still fervent and joyful,

no division between

music and

music makers

and the holy dancers-

i am blessed.

 

i

dance in holy dervish wonderment

forever.

 

mc 9/24 (or so)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:21:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Second cross Kerouac post

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Well, I guess a thread got started on the Dylan news group.  But, since

some here are reading OTR, I thought you might reflect on this insight.

I know these issues have been discussed here, but this is succienct.

There are two post, the first asking "Who Killed Jack Kerouac?" and the

response.

 

_______________________begin cross post _________________________

 

moosefits@WORLDNET.ATT.NETwrote:

 

Subject: Who killed Jack Kerouac?

 

I would love to see Bob do a song on this subject. Have there been any

direct references to him in any of Bob's songs?

------

Howdy moose,

 

Well, there's the line

 

"I've had the Mexico City Blues since the last hairpin curve"

 

from "Something's Burning Baby" on Empire Burlesque (a very underrated

song

IMHO).

 

There's also the scene in 'Renaldo & Clara' where Dylan and Ginsberg

visit

Kerouac's grave.

 

As for 'Who killed Jack Kerouac?'  I 'd have to say it was Jack Daniel,

Jim

Beam and old Granddad.  Catholic guilt and an unhealthy attachment to

his

mother may have been the root problem, but Kerouac poured all that booze

himself, sadly.

 

G'night ev'rybody,

 

_____________________end cross post  __________________________

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:27:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who is Who?

 

nooooo!  camille is carolyn and mary lou is lou ann!

that's all i have to say right now!  love you all!

-jenn-

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:18:43 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who is Who?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

> Also, Randy Royal writes:

> 

> >ed dunkel- ed sanders(?)

> 

> Ed Dunkel is Ed Hinkel, not Sanders.

> 

sorry. i should definetly re-read otr now that i have a larger

understanding of  beat.  thanx.

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:23:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Imploding Text ... something fun yet serious

 

David:

 

Here is an initial contribution to the Imploding Text:

 

"....death needs time.  Death needs time like a junky needs junk.  And what

does death need time for?  The answer is soooo simple.  Death needs time for

what it kills to grow in, for Ah Pook's sweet sake, you stupid, greedy ugly

American death sucker.  Like this!...."

-William S. Burroughs, AH POOK IS HERE AND OTHER TEXTS

First British Edition, John Calder (Publishers) Ltd., 1979, pgs. 24-25

 

Regards,

 

Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:27:23 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      (Fwd) Burroughs last words

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

a friend posted this on the jd salinger list (we don't stay on topic

too much there :)

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

Date:          Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:47:46 -0700

From:          Malcolm Lawrence <malcolm@wolfenet.com>

Subject:       Burroughs last words

To:            Bananafish List <bananafish@lists.nyu.edu>

Reply-to:      bananafish@lists.nyu.edu

 

Speaking about people dying....and Dylan Thomas...I thought I'd pass

this on that a friend just passed on to me.

 

Malcolm

 

----------------------------------

 

Last words: At his exit, Burroughs didn't miss a beat

 

By Barbara T. Roessner

Hartford Courant

 

Famous last words of the 19th century tended to be something short of

inspiring.

"Is it the Fourth?" asked Thomas Jefferson in his final utterance on

July 3, 1826. (He died the next day.)

 

"Strike the tent," said Robert E. Lee when he kicked the bucket in 1870.

 

By the middle of this century, things had improved considerably. Dylan

Thomas, after a lethal bout of drinking in a Manhattan bar in 1953,

gasped this goodbye to the universe: "Seventeen whiskeys. A record, I

think."

 

And in 1977, Gary Gilmore told his firing squad: "Let's do it!"

 

Today, as dusk falls on the millennium, an entirely new standard for the

 

ultimate farewell appears to have been set. With his death this month at

 

the age of 83, William S. Burroughs, grandfather of Beat and author of

the infamously obscene, infamously nonlinear novel "Naked Lunch," has

done to the convention of Last Words what his life's work did to

contemporary American prose -- clawed it raw and left it oozing with

hilarity and pathos and rage.

 

The current issue of The New Yorker excerpts Burroughs' journal entries

(his only recent writings) from May through the eve of his death Aug. 2.

 

And if last words are a distillation of a person's short stint on Earth,

 

Burroughs' was, very simply, one blazing blow against banality,

especially that perpetrated upon the masses by politicians.

 

On May 25, he begins an entry: "All governments are built on lies. All

organizations are built on lies."

 

Less than a week later, he elaborates: "That vile salamander Gingrich,

squeaker of the House, is slobbering about a drug-free America by the

year 2001. What a dreary prospect! Of course this does not include

alcohol and tobacco, of which the consumption will soar. How can a

drug-free state be achieved? Simple. An operation can remove the drug

receptors from the brain. Those who refuse the operation will be

deprived of all rights."

 

And after a lifetime love affair with heroin, methadone and marijuana,

Burroughs had these departing musings on cannabis and its effect on his

art: "A few drags...and I can see multiple ways out and beyond. So why

all this heat on this harmless and rewarding substance?"

 

Burroughs isn't the first Beat to go out with a whole new concept in

deathbed profundity. When Burroughs' cohort Allen Ginsberg died in

April, Ginsberg's own last words to Burroughs were: "I thought I would

be terrified, but I am exhilarated!"

 

Timothy Leary, with whom both Ginsberg and Burroughs experimented

extensively with LSD, bid his goodbye in May 1996 with a disyllabic

synopsis of his beliefs, his religion, his personality, his politics and

 

his attitude toward the great unknown awaiting him: "Why not?"

 

As the baby boom lurches through the passages of middle age, and the

Xers somnambulate through their first bouts with adulthood, these old

rebels, in their dying words, say a great deal not only about

confronting the ultimate passage, but about the living that precedes it.

 

In 1994, not long before his own death, Ginsberg was asked during a

student lecture in Colorado why the Beats were suddenly inspiring a new

and expanded audience. Listen: "Because of the sincerity of the works of

 

art, the passion, the feeling of self-empowerment independent of

government, media and social conditioning, the breaking out of the

plastic mass into human flesh and blood, vulnerability and tenderness"

-- all of which, he correctly pointed out, stand in raving contrast to

"20 years of the Reagan-Bush-Nixonian ugly spirit."

 

Conformity is a sin in the Beat bible. Wrote Burroughs on May 31: "How

good will it be to have total conformity? What will be left of

singularity? And personality? And you and me?"

 

But the greatest sin, perhaps, is uninterest. A numbing of the spirit,

the psyche, the mind. The loss of the ability to feel.

 

The last of Burroughs' last words, penned in a quavering scrawl, is

this: "LOVE."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:59:48 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Second cross Kerouac post

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:21 PM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Well, I guess a thread got started on the Dylan news group.  But, since

>some here are reading OTR, I thought you might reflect on this insight.

>I know these issues have been discussed here, but this is succienct.

>There are two post, the first asking "Who Killed Jack Kerouac?" and the

>response.

> 

>_______________________begin cross post _________________________

> 

>moosefits@WORLDNET.ATT.NETwrote:

> 

>Subject: Who killed Jack Kerouac?

> 

>I would love to see Bob do a song on this subject. Have there been any

>direct references to him in any of Bob's songs?

>------

>Howdy moose,

> 

>Well, there's the line

> 

>"I've had the Mexico City Blues since the last hairpin curve"

> 

>from "Something's Burning Baby" on Empire Burlesque (a very underrated

>song

>IMHO).

> 

>There's also the scene in 'Renaldo & Clara' where Dylan and Ginsberg

>visit

>Kerouac's grave.

> 

>As for 'Who killed Jack Kerouac?'  I 'd have to say it was Jack Daniel,

>Jim

>Beam and old Granddad.  Catholic guilt and an unhealthy attachment to

>his

>mother may have been the root problem, but Kerouac poured all that booze

>himself, sadly.

> 

>G'night ev'rybody,

> 

>_____________________end cross post  __________________________

>--

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

> 

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> 

> 

The last days of Kerouac article in Esquire in 1970,

said Jack drank Budweiser all day long.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:03:29 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Thanks

 

 Hi James,

 

Anne just saw your pictures on Charles' page and she is very impressed with

your writing. She used words like breezy, unaffected, moved right along, but

maybe I will let her tell you herself. She didn't know it was you when she

started to tell me how much she liked the writing

 

Anne

Hi, hi, hi! Thanks for the party - I really enjoyed meeting you all and

seeing old pals again. And yes, I love your writing. It seems so

unpremeditated, uncontrived, so naturally and spontaneously good. [In

contrast to "writers" like myself who have to edit everything about 25 times

(no shit, 25!) before I've killed it enough to allow anyone to read it

(except this)]. Also enjoyed seeing pics. Thanks! xo

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:52:02 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      edit #1

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

winterhawk blue/new grass festival

 

mandolins

pick away, frenetically

riding

the wave of bass

and the movement of fiddles swirling-

i sit, barely able to

restrain from leaping

into the frenzy of sound.

i go out of myself-

on my feet,

highland kicking

swirling, curling, laughing

alive and spreading

energy,

surrounded by

friends i have not yet met.

 

blue grass

winterhawk

new york

 

a farmers wheat field

alchemized for the moment

into a space for love

tolerance

and music.

 

no crowd stampeeds the fence

there *is* no fence

there is only music

and laughing music makers

-on the front stage

-on the side stage

-on the kids=92 stage

music being learned

celebrated and played.

 

all through the night-

i try to lie and sleep

to the

sound of

those who cannot sleep-

fingers movng

sometimes

without volition

but always with love

for the

music-

i leap from my tent,

i dance i laugh i sing i swirl

in estatic sleeplesness

beneath the ceiling of  stars

o=92reaching

the tents huddled below,

dancing imbued with

simple joy.

 

and then comes

daylight:

on the main stage:

alison krauss

bela fleck

tony triska

flat pickers

fiddlers

too many to name, too much

for my soul to remember

in detail,

i remember

only the

holy music

the dance.

 

come morning,

in the aisle

i dance the path

by which

all in come and go

-to water trucks

-to food stands:

dancing.

i go showering

dancing in the solar water,

i swirl

i laugh

i love

i hug

the first person waiting outside

the shower

naked and happy.

 

i *am* the music

i sleep the music

i wake to the music

i swirl in the

sounds of wonderment

and  enchantment.

 

for three days

surrounded by music

and

not a cop in sight

on this

private land

this

hallowed ground-

i dance

i swirl

i love so much

the lessons learned

at the miles of aisles

created by jerry garcia

so long ago

and only recently

bereft from me.

 

and so i go

where the music is,

always:

i dance

 i swirl

i *am*

music!

love!

dance!

movement!

budda is present!

holy!

holy ground

welcoming all.

 

on sunday morning

the gospel

train helps us

pack up and move out -

still fervent and joyful,

no division between

music and

music makers

and the holy dancers-

i am blessed.

 

i

dance in holy dervish wonderment

forever.

 

mc 9/24 (or so)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:54:35 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      edit # 2 and last on list

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

(i thank the court for your forebearance: any suggestions or criticism,

please back channel, so i don't clog the pipeline here.

(insomnia requires hobbies)

 

winterhawk blue/new grass festival

 

mandolins

 pick away, frenetically

   riding the wave

     of bass

      and the movement

        of fiddles

swirling-

 i sit,

  barely able to

   restrain from leaping

    into the frenzy of sound

       when,

 

     i go out of myself-

    on my feet,

  highland kicking

swirling,

 curling, laughing,

   alive

    surrounded by energy,

   blue grass

  winterhawk

 upstate

new york

 

benovelent  farmer=92s

 newly hayed hills

   alchemized

    as voices

     and intruments

    ring out

   among

berkshire mountains

 

 

 

no crowd stampeeds the fence

   there *is* no fence

    there is only music

     and laughing music makers

    -on the front stage

   -on the side stage

  -on the kids=92 stage

celebrating, taught, and played

all through the night-

 al though i try to sleep

   the sound

of  those who do not sleep-

 fingers movng

  with endless love

 and energy

breaks into my dreams-

 

i leap from my tent!

  i dance

   i laugh

  i sing

 i swirl!

my body my only instrument

 in estatic sleeplesness

  beneath the ceiling

   of  stars o=92reaching.

 

next morning,

 on the main stage:

   alison krauss

    bela fleck

     david grisman,

    flat pickers-

   fiddlers-

  guitars

 and banjos

too many to name,

 yet imprinted in my soul

   their holy music-

     my dance.

 

i dance the path

  by which

   all in come and go

  -to water trucks

   -to food stands

    and portolets-

   i go showering

  dancing in the solar water,

 swirling

 and laughing,i hug

 the next  person in line,

  naked and happy

to be alive.

 

i *am* the music

 i sleep the music

  i wake to music

    my body,

    my instrument,

      my dance.

 

three whole days

 surrounded by music

  and not a cop in sight.

 

missing the summer tours

 still feeling the loss of garcia

  i yet dance the lessons learned

   from countless shows and deadheads:

i go where the music is,

 i go where the spirit is

 

to dance,

  to swirl-

  to become

   the music!

love!

 dance!

  movement!

   budda dancing!

  holy!

 holy ground

welcoming all.

 

until, on sunday morning

   the gospel train helps us

  keep the rhythm

   of joy as we clean up,

  and move out -

still fervent and joyful,

no division between

music makers

and the holy dancers-

i am blessed.

 

i

dance in holy dervish wonderment

forever.

 

mc 9/24 (or so)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:12:31 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      sorry for bandwidth

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

yikes.

all the pomes in all their edited incarnations were meant for a poetry

list.

address book not working.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:33:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <vmooney@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: sorry for bandwidth

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Don't apologize!  Enjoyed this poem very much indeed!

 

----------

> From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: sorry for bandwidth

> Date: Friday, September 26, 1997 1:12 AM

> 

> yikes.

> all the pomes in all their edited incarnations were meant for a poetry

> list.

> address book not working.

> mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:48:48 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@MAIL.BUCHENROTH.COM>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

The Stones cruz into Columbus

***

http://www.buchenroth.com/stones.html

***

--------------------------------------------------------

Name: Michael L. Buchenroth

Buchenroth Publishing Company

E-mail: Michael L. Buchenroth <mike@mail.buchenroth.com>

Date: 09/26/97

Time: 07:48:48

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:04:59 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      TKQ Page Update!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Update bookmarks!

Page has been moved to:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

Please update!

       Hope to see some of you in Lowell next weekend!

"Do not cumber yourself with fruitless pains to mend and remedy remote effects;

     let the soul be erect, and all things go well."  Ralph Waldo Emerson,

"The Transcendentalist"

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:26:32 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Second cross Kerouac post

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:21:12 -0400 from <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

 

If you look at the titles of Dylan's songs, you can see the Kerouac influence.

 Dylan's biographers also note that Dylan was reading Kerouac and Ginsberg fair

ly early on.  I don't know of any comments K. ever made about Dylan.  While Dyl

an's music wasn't the jazz K. liked most, I think K would have appreciated Dyla

n's ear and his sense of humor.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:40:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Thanks

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

>  Hi James,

> 

> Anne just saw your pictures on Charles' page and she is very impressed with

> your writing. She used words like breezy, unaffected, moved right along, but

> maybe I will let her tell you herself. She didn't know it was you when she

> started to tell me how much she liked the writing

> 

> Anne

> Hi, hi, hi! Thanks for the party - I really enjoyed meeting you all and

> seeing old pals again. And yes, I love your writing. It seems so

> unpremeditated, uncontrived, so naturally and spontaneously good. [In

> contrast to "writers" like myself who have to edit everything about 25 times

> (no shit, 25!) before I've killed it enough to allow anyone to read it

> (except this)]. Also enjoyed seeing pics. Thanks! xo

 

hi leon ... say hello to Anne M. ...

 

wow!!!  25 times is a lot of times.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:51:50 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Thanks

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon and Anne

 

Good to hear from you guys.  I take it that you are in Santa Cruz Anne?

The party is still one of my peak memories for the summer.  Let's get

together again.  You are both wonderful.

 

James

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

>  Hi James,

> 

> Anne just saw your pictures on Charles' page and she is very impressed with

> your writing. She used words like breezy, unaffected, moved right along, but

> maybe I will let her tell you herself. She didn't know it was you when she

> started to tell me how much she liked the writing

> 

> Anne

> Hi, hi, hi! Thanks for the party - I really enjoyed meeting you all and

> seeing old pals again. And yes, I love your writing. It seems so

> unpremeditated, uncontrived, so naturally and spontaneously good. [In

> contrast to "writers" like myself who have to edit everything about 25 times

> (no shit, 25!) before I've killed it enough to allow anyone to read it

> (except this)]. Also enjoyed seeing pics. Thanks! xo

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:48:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Freedom Chants for the Roof of the World (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:24:27 -0400

From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"

     <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Reply-To: The Bohemian Mailing List <BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>

To: BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

Subject: Freedom Chants for the Roof of the World

 

THE BEASTIE BOYS' ADAM YAUCH SPEAKS OUT ON TIBET -- AGAIN

 

  The fall of '97 may someday be remembered as the season of Tibet: On Nov.

4, Grand Royal/ Capitol Records will release the three-CD set Tibetan

Freedom Concert, comprised of superstar performances recorded live at the

second Tibetan Freedom Concert, held this past June 7-8 in New York (the

third disc also contains material from the first show last summer in San

Francisco, as well as a CD-Rom with live footage, photos, artist

soundbites, and background info on Tibetan culture) (allstar, June 30).

 

  The CD release will coincide with the Nov. 6 release of a film

documentary called Free Tibet, which chronicles the San Francisco show

(allstar, Oct. 4, 1996). In addition, two other movies to be released this

fall also pay homage to the troubled culture: Seven Days in Tibet

(starring Brad Pitt) and Kundun, a biography of the Dalai Lama directed by

Martin Scorsese.

 

  And if that weren't enough, there will indeed be a third Tibetan Freedom

Concert next summer, to be held in Washington, DC, although the artists

have yet to be announced.

 

  "There are some artists confirmed already," says concert organizer Adam

Yauch, aka MCA of the Beastie Boys, "but I got in trouble a couple times

before, so I'm not supposed to say anything. But it'll be a surprise."

 

  Meanwhile, Yauch is doing everything possible to continue to raise

awareness for the cause, including, most recently, soliciting signatures

from celebrity musicians to sign a letter to Chinese president Jiang Zemin

asking him to free imprisoned Tibetan music scholar Ngawang Choephel. "I

think everything helps," he says. "We just need to stay on it. We can't

rest on any of that stuff and think, 'Oh, well, it's done.' Basically, it's

not enough until Tibet is free."

 

  With Free Tibet, Yauch also experienced the art of long- form filmmaking

for the first time. "Especially in the editing room," he says. "It's kinda

hectic in a way, but it's fun." The 90-minute film, directed by British

filmmaker Sarah Pirozek and distributed by the independent company Shooting

Gallery, will split its proceeds between Yauch's Milarepa Fund, which aids

Tibetan causes, and the Shooting Gallery foundation, which aids inner- city

kids.

 

  All funds raised by the three-CD set, however, go directly to Milarepa,

and Yauch proudly emphasizes that every artist and label involved in the

project donated their proceeds. All of that raises the question of just how

 those proceeds are used. Live Aid, after all -- despite its best

intentions -- ended up being frustrated by the Ethiopian government, who

seized food intended for starving people and let it go to waste. But Yauch

insists that won't happen in this case.

 

  "The original reason that Milarepa was created was so we could have a lot

more control over how those moneys were used," he says. "We decided to form

Milarepa for that purpose. And then  we began doing educational stuff after

that."

 

  Ironically, the very success of Milarepa has caused a further crisis in

Tibet. "The scary thing is that the situation is actually getting worse in

Tibet," says Yauch. "The Chinese government is cracking down even harder as

a result of our efforts. They're afraid of the work we're doing, so they're

taking extreme measures and getting closer to the final solution."

 

  Since 1950, the Chinese have killed over 1.2 million Tibetans, destroyed

ancient monasteries, tortured monks, deforested the land, and sterilized

Tibetan women, among other horrors. And Yauch fears it's getting worse --

and that's not even the only reason for saving it.

 

  "I look at Tibetan culture as the most precious treasure that we have,"

says Yauch. "Because within the culture are ideals that have been

cultivated over thousands of years. While the Western world has been

advancing technologically and building more modern machines and faster

planes and computers and televisions and all these outwardly modern

advancements, the Tibetans contained themselves up in the Himalayas, and

have been making their advancements within their minds -- advancements that

can actually make a person know how to be happier.

 

  "Those ideals are locked into -- and inseparable from -- Tibetan

culture," he continues, "and their understanding of them is as deep as our

understanding is of technology. They're the adults of our world, and

meanwhile we in the Western world are like a bunch of little children

running around with dangerous toys, polluting the planet and so on.

 

  "You couldn't just walk up and make a transistor radio," says Yauch,

returning to the technology comparison. "That's because it's built on the

little circuit boards and miniature parts that reflect layers of complexity

that evolved over time. The Tibetans have the same layers of understanding,

only it's directed inward. And the idea that this is about to be wiped out

is terrifying, because this is in a sense the ideal, the best culture

humans have produced."

 

-John Bitzer

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:17:04 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Stones shot

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Michael

 

I should have known you would be a Stones fan since most of the best

people are.  Nice photo--can you identify the convertible--I didn't get

quite enough of it to get clues.

 

James

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:53:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: pome

 

lovely, marie.

made me feel very connected.

   ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:08:30 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

thanks, marlene: it came from my own feeling of connection with what is

what was, and what is to come.

mc

 

Marlene Giraud wrote:

 

> lovely, marie.

> made me feel very connected.

>    ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:15:08 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

> thanks marlene! here is latest draft:

 

i hope this trancends the problem of bad editing and what not (ghosts in

the machine)

winterhawk blue/new grass festival

 

mandolins

 pick away, frenetically

   riding the wave

     of bass

      and the movement

        of fiddles

swirling-

 i sit,

  barely able to

   restrain from leaping

    into the frenzy of sound

       when,

 

     i go out of myself-

    on my feet,

  highland kicking

swirling,

 curling, laughing,

   alive

    surrounded by energy,

   blue grass

  winterhawk

 upstate

new york

 

benovelent  farmer=92s

 newly hayed hills

   alchemized

    as voices

     and intruments

    ring out

   among

mountains

 

no crowd stampeeds the fence

   there *is* no fence

    there is only music

     and laughing music makers

    -on the front stage

   -on the side stage

  -on the kids=92 stage

celebrating, taught, and played

all through the night-

 al though i try to sleep

   the sound

of  those who do not sleep-

 fingers movng

  with endless love

 and energy

breaks into my dreams-

 

i leap from my tent!

  i dance

   i laugh

  i sing

 i swirl!

my body my only instrument

 in estatic sleeplesness

  beneath the ceiling

   of  stars.

next morning,

 on the main stage:

   alison krauss

    bela fleck

     david grisman,

    flat pickers-

   fiddlers-

  guitars

 and banjos

too many to name,

 yet imprinted in my soul

   their holy music-

     my dance.

 

i dance in the the well traveled path

     -to water trucks

      -to food stands

    and portolets-

   i go showering

  dancing in the solar water,

 swirling

   and laughing.

emerging,

  i hug

  the next in line,

   naked and happy

to be alive!

 

i *am* the music

 i sleep the music

  i wake to music

    my body,

    my instrument,

      my dance.

 

three whole days

 surrounded by music

  and not a cop in sight.

 

missing the summer tours

 still feeling the loss of garcia

  i yet dance the lessons learned

   from countless shows and deadheads:

i go where the music is,

 i go where the spirit is

 

to dance,

  to swirl-

  to become

   the music!

love!

 dance!

  movement!

   budda dancing!

  holy!

 holy ground

welcoming all.

 

until, on sunday morning

   the gospel train helps us

  keep the rhythm

   of joy as we clean up,

  and move out -

still fervent and joyful,

no division between

music makers

and the holy dancers-

i am blessed:

i

dance in holy dervish

wonderment

 forever.

 

mc 9/24 (or so)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:43:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Imploding Text ... something fun yet serious

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

> 

> David:

> 

> Here is an initial contribution to the Imploding Text:

 

 

"The reaper trims his own cosmic garden, if there were too many of this

or that cosmic thread, too much here, not enough there, disconnected or

plucked from this dual reality, this cosmic thread needed to make the

total weave of existence come out right, or that with the proper pattern

in the proper time and space -- or maybe they were selected with a

certain type life thread to string together molecules and tie them

together in that mirror of anti-matter."

        -- Charles Plymell, The Last of the Moccasins, 1971, 1996

 

 "....death needs time.  Death needs time like a junky needs junk.  And

what does death need time for?  The answer is soooo simple.  Death needs

time for what it kills to grow in, for Ah Pook's sweet sake, you stupid,

greedy ugly American death sucker.  Like this!...."

 

  -William S. Burroughs, AH POOK IS HERE AND OTHER TEXTS First British

Edition, John Calder (Publishers) Ltd., 1979, pgs. 24-25

 

"For though the tree dies the tree is born anew, only until

        the tree dies forever and never a tree born

        anew ... shall the ground die too"

  - Gregory Corso, "Elegiac Feelings American...for the dear memory of

John Kerouac," Gregory Corso.  MINEFIELD New and Selected Poems, 1989

 

 

 

 

> Regards,

> 

> Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:59:53 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "William H. Rose" <dharmapoet@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      A visit to San Francisco

Comments: cc: lcandle@juno.com

 

Neal Cassady's Shadow

 

        I saw Neal Cassady's shadow up on Russian Hill. It

wasn't him, of course, he's been gone for almost thirty years. But

it was him in some odd fashion. It had to be. It moved too fast to

be anything, or anyone, else. Phase shifted and out of synch with

the rest of the world just as Jack had described him.

        I followed him down the hill into Chinatown. Past the

market filled with gutted fish and a tub of live eels. Past the

vegetable stand heaped with oriental cabbage and pea pods. He

stopped for a moment and talked with a few street people (the

Dharma Bums of past literature) in a blind alley littered with

ruck sacks, purses, back packs and trash. I thought that I had

lost him in a crowd out on Grant Street (the bustle of so many

unfamiliar faces confused me, I admit) but I saw him stop and

take a quick hit from a pipe being passes back and forth by two

tattooed kids. His shadow smoked quickly then melted back into

the crowd. Sirens wailed in the distance and heat shimmied off

the road as Neal's shadow passed by the herb and medicine

shop, the Chinese laundry and the knick-knack shop.

        This community somehow made me feel a foreigner

in my own country but Neal seemed at home here. He stopped

and talked quickly with a variety of people on the street (his

shadow seemed to know everyone) and he walked with an aire

of familiarity which made me feel foolish and a bit out of synch

myself.

        His shadow flickered with amazing speed into almost

every business and shop down this busy street as if his curiosity

could not be slaked. Ever. And still I could not catch him. He

walked into a tavern just as a woman with multi-pierced body

parts (lips, nose, eyebrows) stepped out of her apartment on the

way to walking her dog. I stepped off to the side and let her pass.

When I opened the door to the tavern I noticed the pool table first.

The cue ball was slowly rolling towards the eight, kissed it gently

and sent it into a corner pocket. But no one was anywhere near

the table and I glimpsed a quick shadow at the back of the bar as

the rickety screen door was screeching closed on a rusty spring.

There wasn't a single person in the place except the barkeeper

and he eyed me up suspiciously as I headed out the back door.

As I was leaving I noticed an empty beer glass resting on the

bar with foam trailing down the inside of the glass. Someone had

downed a quick one and I knew it had been Neal. I followed his

shadow out onto Columbus Street.

        Now, you may be asking yourself why I was following

something as elusive as a shadow. All I can say by way of

explanation was that I had heard so much about Neal from Jack

and Bill and Allen and Tom that I felt I needed to touch just a

tiny fraction of the myth (or the man) whom they had described.

Besides, I knew, I just knew, that the shadow I tailed was Neal's.

Impossible, inexplicable, unbelievable? Yes, but the locality, the

mannerisms of the shadow and my own lust for some knowledge

or insight into Neal's personality turned my own curiosity into a

quest. A shadow quest. And it was.

        As I made my way down Columbus Street I couldn't

help but notice that I had somehow moved out of Chinatown to

the edge of North Beach. I heard a cable car clanging it's bell

filled with tourists interested in seeing the sights. This morning

I was one of them, I thought, as I pushed my way through a

crowd in the hopes of glimpsing Neal's shadow one last time.

But he was gone. Or his shadow was anyway and I felt like I

had just lost a significant part of myself with the loss of his

incredible shadow.

        I stuck my hands deep into the pockets of my jeans

and kicked a plastic beer cup into the street. Dejected, I looked

down at my shoes as I slowly ambled down the street.

        After a few moments I realized that my surroundings

had changed. Not drastically but minutely. So diminutively that

many people would not even notice the difference but enough

of a change had occurred in my surroundings that it caused me

to look up and away from my pondering.

        I was standing at the corners of Broadway, Grant,

and Columbus in the North Beach section and the streets were

packed with people. Tourists, businessmen, street people. Every

race on the planet seemed to be represented here on this tri-

cornered street in San Francisco. There was a momentary hush

of silence which in a crowd of this size was uncommon if not

improbable. It was this very change in the din of the crowd

which I had noticed and which had brought me out of my

momentary contemplation of loss.

        In the fleeting split-second razor-sharp moment of

time when the entire world was silent I noticed the nondescript

exterior of a small bookshop. A small bookshop with the very

large name "City Lights Books".

        You can call it karma, kismet or fate but when

Ferlinghetti (the owner of said book store) first decided to

publish Ginsberg's "Howl" he had almost unknowingly pulled

himself into the world of Jack and Neal. As he was pulling me

there now. And here, many years beyond the myths, I found

myself drawn by a shadow and my own warped imagination.

        I entered the building and saw almost immediately

the sign "Beat Literature upstairs". I climbed three short steps,

passed the poetry magazine section and climbed a flight of

stairs to this section of the book store. And there, big as life,

I found Neal Cassady's shadow. Both on the road and off it

his face looked out at me smiling. Next to him, in the picture,

stood Jack and far off in the corner, almost, but not quite, not

there, was his shadow.

        When I left the bookshop I noticed a street-person,

dirty and grimy from the road, sitting on the ground and jiggling

a cup filled with a few coins, and brandishing a cardboard sign

which read, "ANYTHING HELPS!" I reached into my pocket

pulled out a half-empty pack of cigarettes, placed it into the

cup and said, "For Neal!"

        And you know, he was right, anything does help.

 

                William H. Rose, III

                San Francisco

                September 22, 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:12:45 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Today's Haiku

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

>From "Trip Trap", Jack Kerouac, Albert Saijo, Lew Welch

 

ALBERT

 

Grain elevators on

   Saturday lonely as

Abandoned toys

 

 

LEW'S ALTERNATE

 

Lonely grain elevators

    on Saturday

--Abandoned toys

 

 

 

JACK'S ALTERNATE

 

Grain elevators on

    Saturday waiting for

The farmers to come home

 

 

 

and another

 

LEW

 

   Old men drive slowly

backwards

   in Safeway Parking Lots

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:18:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Beat interviews

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I know it's a long shot, but does anyone recall the last name of a

blond-haired, square-jawed fellow named Arthur something or other who

interviewed Ginsberg, Kerouac and Burroughs some time in the 50s or 60s? I'm

trying to figure it out from an old tape transcription and this is all I

have to go on; I don't even know the publication. Thanks..

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:59:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: A visit to San Francisco

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

WOW!  This was beauty incarnated in words.  Thanks so much for writing

it and sharing it.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

William H. Rose wrote:

> 

> Neal Cassady's Shadow

> 

>         I saw Neal Cassady's shadow up on Russian Hill. It

> wasn't him, of course, he's been gone for almost thirty years. But

> it was him in some odd fashion. It had to be. It moved too fast to

> be anything, or anyone, else. Phase shifted and out of synch with

> the rest of the world just as Jack had described him.

>         I followed him down the hill into Chinatown. Past the

> market filled with gutted fish and a tub of live eels. Past the

> vegetable stand heaped with oriental cabbage and pea pods. He

> stopped for a moment and talked with a few street people (the

> Dharma Bums of past literature) in a blind alley littered with

> ruck sacks, purses, back packs and trash. I thought that I had

> lost him in a crowd out on Grant Street (the bustle of so many

> unfamiliar faces confused me, I admit) but I saw him stop and

> take a quick hit from a pipe being passes back and forth by two

> tattooed kids. His shadow smoked quickly then melted back into

> the crowd. Sirens wailed in the distance and heat shimmied off

> the road as Neal's shadow passed by the herb and medicine

> shop, the Chinese laundry and the knick-knack shop.

>         This community somehow made me feel a foreigner

> in my own country but Neal seemed at home here. He stopped

> and talked quickly with a variety of people on the street (his

> shadow seemed to know everyone) and he walked with an aire

> of familiarity which made me feel foolish and a bit out of synch

> myself.

>         His shadow flickered with amazing speed into almost

> every business and shop down this busy street as if his curiosity

> could not be slaked. Ever. And still I could not catch him. He

> walked into a tavern just as a woman with multi-pierced body

> parts (lips, nose, eyebrows) stepped out of her apartment on the

> way to walking her dog. I stepped off to the side and let her pass.

> When I opened the door to the tavern I noticed the pool table first.

> The cue ball was slowly rolling towards the eight, kissed it gently

> and sent it into a corner pocket. But no one was anywhere near

> the table and I glimpsed a quick shadow at the back of the bar as

> the rickety screen door was screeching closed on a rusty spring.

> There wasn't a single person in the place except the barkeeper

> and he eyed me up suspiciously as I headed out the back door.

> As I was leaving I noticed an empty beer glass resting on the

> bar with foam trailing down the inside of the glass. Someone had

> downed a quick one and I knew it had been Neal. I followed his

> shadow out onto Columbus Street.

>         Now, you may be asking yourself why I was following

> something as elusive as a shadow. All I can say by way of

> explanation was that I had heard so much about Neal from Jack

> and Bill and Allen and Tom that I felt I needed to touch just a

> tiny fraction of the myth (or the man) whom they had described.

> Besides, I knew, I just knew, that the shadow I tailed was Neal's.

> Impossible, inexplicable, unbelievable? Yes, but the locality, the

> mannerisms of the shadow and my own lust for some knowledge

> or insight into Neal's personality turned my own curiosity into a

> quest. A shadow quest. And it was.

>         As I made my way down Columbus Street I couldn't

> help but notice that I had somehow moved out of Chinatown to

> the edge of North Beach. I heard a cable car clanging it's bell

> filled with tourists interested in seeing the sights. This morning

> I was one of them, I thought, as I pushed my way through a

> crowd in the hopes of glimpsing Neal's shadow one last time.

> But he was gone. Or his shadow was anyway and I felt like I

> had just lost a significant part of myself with the loss of his

> incredible shadow.

>         I stuck my hands deep into the pockets of my jeans

> and kicked a plastic beer cup into the street. Dejected, I looked

> down at my shoes as I slowly ambled down the street.

>         After a few moments I realized that my surroundings

> had changed. Not drastically but minutely. So diminutively that

> many people would not even notice the difference but enough

> of a change had occurred in my surroundings that it caused me

> to look up and away from my pondering.

>         I was standing at the corners of Broadway, Grant,

> and Columbus in the North Beach section and the streets were

> packed with people. Tourists, businessmen, street people. Every

> race on the planet seemed to be represented here on this tri-

> cornered street in San Francisco. There was a momentary hush

> of silence which in a crowd of this size was uncommon if not

> improbable. It was this very change in the din of the crowd

> which I had noticed and which had brought me out of my

> momentary contemplation of loss.

>         In the fleeting split-second razor-sharp moment of

> time when the entire world was silent I noticed the nondescript

> exterior of a small bookshop. A small bookshop with the very

> large name "City Lights Books".

>         You can call it karma, kismet or fate but when

> Ferlinghetti (the owner of said book store) first decided to

> publish Ginsberg's "Howl" he had almost unknowingly pulled

> himself into the world of Jack and Neal. As he was pulling me

> there now. And here, many years beyond the myths, I found

> myself drawn by a shadow and my own warped imagination.

>         I entered the building and saw almost immediately

> the sign "Beat Literature upstairs". I climbed three short steps,

> passed the poetry magazine section and climbed a flight of

> stairs to this section of the book store. And there, big as life,

> I found Neal Cassady's shadow. Both on the road and off it

> his face looked out at me smiling. Next to him, in the picture,

> stood Jack and far off in the corner, almost, but not quite, not

> there, was his shadow.

>         When I left the bookshop I noticed a street-person,

> dirty and grimy from the road, sitting on the ground and jiggling

> a cup filled with a few coins, and brandishing a cardboard sign

> which read, "ANYTHING HELPS!" I reached into my pocket

> pulled out a half-empty pack of cigarettes, placed it into the

> cup and said, "For Neal!"

>         And you know, he was right, anything does help.

> 

>                 William H. Rose, III

>                 San Francisco

>                 September 22, 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:06:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: Today's Haiku

In-Reply-To:  <342C416D.48BD@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> >From "Trip Trap", Jack Kerouac, Albert Saijo, Lew Welch

 

> ALBERT

 

> Grain elevators on

>    Saturday lonely as

> Abandoned toys

 

BROWN

 

A grain elevator, a Saturday.

No one near. No motor turns.

The winch creaks in the wind,

Dust blows across the road.

 

> LEW'S ALTERNATE

> 

> Lonely grain elevators

>     on Saturday

> --Abandoned toys

 

MIKE

 

Dust blows across the Saturday road.

The grain elevator, no one near,

Shivers a little in the wind.

 

> JACK'S ALTERNATE

> 

> Grain elevators on

>     Saturday waiting for

> The farmers to come home

 

MIKE

 

Friday night, and a farmer getting drunk.

The grain elevator's doors

Are sealed tight.

 

> LEW

> 

>    Old men drive slowly

> backwards

>    in Safeway Parking Lots

 

MIKE

 

His brown neck craned crinkly to look back,

He reverses slowly out of the Safeway parking spot.

In his youth, he was a hot-rodder.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                             Is this a sig?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:10:00 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      history of bop

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

hello. i have a question- while checking out amazon.com's new

updates, i found that there is a kerouac book called the history of

bop that was published 3 years ago. it sells for $40 paperback and

they say that it may be unaviable. does anyone have info on this?

thank you

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:19:27 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Today's Haiku

 

Thanks James, these are wonderful. very nice takes Mike.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:06:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dick Eiden <DickEiden@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat interviews

 

There was a guy fitting that description (crew cut?) named Arthur Godfrey, I

think.  He did TV interviews in those days.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:35:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Beat interviews

In-Reply-To:  <970926230424_1462953552@emout10.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Dick Eiden wrote:

 

> There was a guy fitting that description (crew cut?) named Arthur Godfrey, I

> think.  He did TV interviews in those days.

 

AH! That's it, well all right, thanks!

 

onnow: "Sal Paradise" by the Dashboard Saviors.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:58:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat interviews

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:06 PM 9/26/97 -0400, you wrote:

>There was a guy fitting that description (crew cut?) named Arthur Godfrey, I

>think.  He did TV interviews in those days.

> 

> 

He did interveiws?, he was the most well-known person in public

life next to Ike and Mamy.  Arthur Godfrey was on CBS television

night and day.  He was more well-known than Elvis Presley, Ed

Sullivan and the Beatles, all at one time.  That's who Arthur

Godfrey was, in his time.  And, of course, it may not have been

him, the hair was red but appeared sandy and blonde on b&W early

TV.

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:42:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rod Macy <rodmacy@IQUEST.NET>

Subject:      What Happened to Kerouac?  the movie

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Just finished watching What Happened to Kerouac?  Excellent movie

overall.  I recommend it to all on the list EXCEPT for its high price:

$69.95!  Good interviews and decent information.  But get it for the

performance on the Steve Allen Show and his drunken appearance on

William Buckley's program.

 

Eric Macy

 

If anyone wants more info, just write and I'll post it

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 03:57:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: What Happened to Kerouac?  the movie

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:42 AM 9/27/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Just finished watching What Happened to Kerouac?  Excellent movie

>overall.  I recommend it to all on the list EXCEPT for its high price:

>$69.95!  Good interviews and decent information.  But get it for the

>performance on the Steve Allen Show and his drunken appearance on

>William Buckley's program.

> 

>Eric Macy

> 

>If anyone wants more info, just write and I'll post it

> 

> 

So who pays for them.  Just make a copy, if you are so

hot for it.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 03:42:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat interviews

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mike Rice wrote:

> 

> At 11:06 PM 9/26/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >There was a guy fitting that description (crew cut?) named Arthur Godfrey, I

> >think.  He did TV interviews in those days.

> >

> >

> He did interveiws?, he was the most well-known person in public

> life next to Ike and Mamy.  Arthur Godfrey was on CBS television

> night and day.  He was more well-known than Elvis Presley, Ed

> Sullivan and the Beatles, all at one time.  That's who Arthur

> Godfrey was, in his time.  And, of course, it may not have been

> him, the hair was red but appeared sandy and blonde on b&W early

> TV.

> 

> Mike

 

just about to drive past Ike and Mamie's on my way East for the

weekend.  aren't they still the most popular folks around????

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

(20 miles West of Abilene)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:18:28 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@MAIL.BUCHENROTH.COM>

Subject:      Fw: Re: Stones shot

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

--- On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:17:04 -0700  James Stauffer

<stauffer@PACBELL.NET> wrote:

Michael

 

I should have known you would be a Stones fan since most of the

 

best

people are.  Nice photo--can you identify the convertible--I

didn't get

quite enough of it to get clues.

***

It's an AP photo from our local newspaper, Columbus Dispatch,

"Weekender" section. I scanned the entire photo, even kept the

25 degree rotation. It sort of looks like a 57 or 56 Buick or

Olds, but like you I just can't make it out. We need an expert

here. I just know that photo is classic. Keith Richards is

surely cruz'n, ya know? --ride'n shotgun!

***

They're amazing individuals! They command all the respect I

have, I know that!

-Mike

 

Buchenroth Publishing Company

E-mail: Michael L. Buchenroth <mike@mail.buchenroth.com>

Date: 09/26/97

Time: 14:08:37

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:11:34 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      (Fwd) Help! Library Under Siege

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

can anyone here with connections help this guy out?

thank you

randy

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

Date:          Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:35:55 -0500

From:          mkuhar@mail.ohio.net (Mark Kuhar)

Subject:       Help! Library Under Siege

To:            bananafish@lists.nyu.edu

Reply-to:      bananafish@lists.nyu.edu

 

Dear fellow Bananafishers.

 

This is a desperate call to anyone who can help this situation or knows

someone who can help this situation. The library system in Medina County,

Ohio is under siege by a group called Citizens for the Protection of

Children. They have organized, pooled money and even started a PAC to

prevent the passage of an operating levy that is needed to keep the

libraries open, all because the library offers free internet access on

public terminals, (and everyone knows all  that horrible porno-graphy is

available to juveniles if there is free internet access) The library has

adopted a sane policy of politely policeing internet users, and asking

anyone to stop who is accessing X-rated sites. This has only happened a few

times anyway. But this is not enough for CPC. They want to take away all of

the great things the library offers because the library does not measure up

to their neo-Nazi standards of "decency." PLEASE if anyone has any

connections to any high-profile person or group who can pitch in and come

to the defense of the Medina County Library System, have them contact me,

or the library directly (ask for Bob Smith and tell him its urgent). His

number is 330-725-8604. Talk about banned books. CPC wants to ban whole

libraries. Help us stop this fascist assualt on freedom of information.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 17:18:35 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Imploding Text ... something fun yet serious

In-Reply-To:  <342C3AA4.6C4A@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"Several times I went to San Fran with my gun and when

a queer approached me in a bar john I took out the gun

and said, 'Eh? Eh? What's that you say?' He bolted. I've

never understood why I did that; I knew queers all over

the country. It was just the loneliness of San Francisco

and the fact that I had a gun. I had to show it to someone."

---Jack Kerouac, "On the Road".

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 17:22:32 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Whereabouts of Gregory Corso

Comments: cc: interzona@tmn.it

In-Reply-To:  <3401A258.222B@erols.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10.18 25/08/97 -0500,  PATRICK <EASTWIND@EROLS.COM> wrote:

>Anyone know where Gregory Corso is living today?? Or any info on his

>current activity?

> 

>Thanking you now ...

> 

>Patrick

>eastwind@erols.com

> 

 

 

Patrick & beat friends,

 

an unknown friend emailed me today the following message

stated that Gregory Corso was in Italy during june 1997.

 

cari saluti,

Rinaldo.

 

*-*-*-*-*-*- start of the addenda message *-*-*-*-*-*-*

>>Return-Path: <interzona@tmn.it>

>>From: interzona@tmn.it (Taro)

>>To: <rasa@gpnet.it>

>>Subject: Beat...

>>Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:58:11 +0200

>>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

>> 

>>Beh...di Mestre allora?...e c'eri quella serata a Conegliano

>>(ehm...14 e 15 Giungo 1997)

>>con la Pivano e Gregory Corso?

>> 

>>Taro

>>interzona@tmn.it

*-*-*-*-*-*- end of the addenda message *-*-*-*-*-*

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:36:35 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Fw: Re: Stones shot

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Michael,

 

That was my guess, General Motors, 56, possibly 57--but we do need an

expert.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:

 

 It sort of looks like a 57 or 56 Buick or

> Olds, but like you I just can't make it out. We need an expert

> here. I just know that photo is classic. Keith Richards is

> surely cruz'n, ya know? --ride'n shotgun!

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 17:31:44 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      (fwd) photo id

Comments: cc: neato@pipeline.com

In-Reply-To:  <342C3AA4.6C4A@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Return-Path: <neato@pipeline.com>

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:43:46 +0000

From: neato <neato@pipeline.com>

To: rasa@gpnet.it

Subject: photo id

X-URL: http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beatspic.htm

 

neato says:

#2 is (l-r) burroughs, peter orlovsky, corso and ginsberg

 

#1 are probably some nameless beatnicks at washington square

park..photo is probably by fred mcdarrah

 

cheers

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:41:22 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Imploding Text ... something fun yet serious

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

thanks rinaldo, this is probably the best otr quote around. still makes me

laugh out loud each time i read it. randy~

 

> "Several times I went to San Fran with my gun and when

> a queer approached me in a bar john I took out the gun

> and said, 'Eh? Eh? What's that you say?' He bolted. I've

> never understood why I did that; I knew queers all over

> the country. It was just the loneliness of San Francisco

> and the fact that I had a gun. I had to show it to someone."

> ---Jack Kerouac, "On the Road".

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:02:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Euhyun Jennifer Chun <ejc@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>

Subject:      Hello again...

In-Reply-To:  <342CC6EE.303@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Beat-L-ers. hiya everyone! it's jEnnIfEr again. it's been about a month

since i first arrived in d.c., and just now have i been able to

resubscribe to the list. hope all is well... :) hear i missed seeing jim

carroll perform at a local club. anybody know of anything that might be

going on near me? thanx! -jEnnIfEr

 

ps. hiya RacE and patricia, how's the weather in good ole kansas? ;>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:32:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Entropy Operator <rush2@INSTANTLINUX.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hello again...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.96.970927115750.5817A-100000@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> Beat-L-ers. hiya everyone! it's jEnnIfEr again. it's been about a month

> since i first arrived in d.c., and just now have i been able to

> resubscribe to the list. hope all is well... :) hear i missed seeing jim

> carroll perform at a local club. anybody know of anything that might be

> going on near me? thanx! -jEnnIfEr

> 

> ps. hiya RacE and patricia, how's the weather in good ole kansas? ;>

> 

Well it's rather non-related but there is an expo "web 97" I was supposed

to go to next week in DC.. think of it . lots of green-eyed suits , tons

of computers, and hundreds of gallons of bad coffee.. doesnt that sound

crazy? *grin* I cant rmemeber where but I found a great little place there

about a year ago.. dont ask where I was just wandering ..  it had an

italian name though great eats.. had a swinging quintet, and  a big

pciture of kerouac in the backroom..

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 00:22:13 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Bob Dylan, Standing In The Doorway.

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.96.970927113038.25278B-100000@poconos.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Standing In The Doorway                 by Bob Dylan

 

I'm a-walkin' through the summer nights

The jukebox playing low

Yesterday everything was goin' too fast

Today it's moving too slow

I got no place left to turn

I got nothing left to burn

 

Don't know if I saw you, If I would kiss you or kill you

It probably wouldn't matter to you anyhow

You left me standin' in the doorway cryin'

I got nothing to go back to now

 

The light in this place is so bad

Makin' me sick in the head

All the laughter is just makin' me sad

The stars have turned cherry red

I'm strummin' on my gay guitar

Smokin' a cheap cigar

 

The ghost of our old love has not gone away

Don't look [it] like it will any time soon

You left me standin' in the doorway cryin'

Under the midnight moon

 

Maybe they'll get me, and maybe they won't

But not tonight and it won't be here

There are things I could say but I don't

I know the mercy of God must be near

I've been ridin' the midnight train

Got ice water in my vein

 

I would be crazy if I took you back

It would go up against every rule

You left me standin' in the doorway cryin'

Sufferin' like a fool

 

When the last rays of daylight go down

[Buddy?] you'll roam no more

I can hear the church bells ringin' in the yard

I wonder who they're ringin' for?

I know I can't win

But my heart just won't give in

 

Last night I danced with a stranger

But she just reminded me you were the one

You left me standin' in the doorway cryin'

In the dark land of the sun

 

I'll eat when I'm hungry, drink when I'm dry

And live my life on the square

And even if the flesh falls off of my face

I know someone will be there to care

It always meaned so much

Even the softest touch

 

I see nothin' to be gained by any explanation

There's no words that need to be said

You left me standin' in the doorway cryin'

Blues wrapped around my head

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 18:56:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Bob Dylan, Standing In The Doorway.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Great post Rinaldo.  what album is this from?

 

Jon

 

At 12:22 AM 9/28/97 +0200, you wrote:

>Standing In The Doorway                 by Bob Dylan

> 

>I'm a-walkin' through the summer nights

>The jukebox playing low

>Yesterday everything was goin' too fast

>Today it's moving too slow

>I got no place left to turn

>I got nothing left to burn

> 

>Don't know if I saw you, If I would kiss you or kill you

>It probably wouldn't matter to you anyhow

>You left me standin' in the doorway cryin'

>I got nothing to go back to now

> 

>The light in this place is so bad

>Makin' me sick in the head

>All the laughter is just makin' me sad

>The stars have turned cherry red

>I'm strummin' on my gay guitar

>Smokin' a cheap cigar

> 

>The ghost of our old love has not gone away

>Don't look [it] like it will any time soon

>You left me standin' in the doorway cryin'

>Under the midnight moon

> 

>Maybe they'll get me, and maybe they won't

>But not tonight and it won't be here

>There are things I could say but I don't

>I know the mercy of God must be near

>I've been ridin' the midnight train

>Got ice water in my vein

> 

>I would be crazy if I took you back

>It would go up against every rule

>You left me standin' in the doorway cryin'

>Sufferin' like a fool

> 

>When the last rays of daylight go down

>[Buddy?] you'll roam no more

>I can hear the church bells ringin' in the yard

>I wonder who they're ringin' for?

>I know I can't win

>But my heart just won't give in

> 

>Last night I danced with a stranger

>But she just reminded me you were the one

>You left me standin' in the doorway cryin'

>In the dark land of the sun

> 

>I'll eat when I'm hungry, drink when I'm dry

>And live my life on the square

>And even if the flesh falls off of my face

>I know someone will be there to care

>It always meaned so much

>Even the softest touch

> 

>I see nothin' to be gained by any explanation

>There's no words that need to be said

>You left me standin' in the doorway cryin'

>Blues wrapped around my head

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 16:27:14 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bob Dylan, Standing In The Doorway.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Isn't Dylan opening for the Pope today.  Not certain I can get my head

around that concept.  Who would have thunk it, back in '63.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:14:01 -0400

Reply-To:     Corduroy <corduroy@earthlink.net>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Corduroy <corduroy@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      U.S. distributors won't lay a hand on 'Lolita' movie

Comments: To: Bob Holman <MouthMight@aol.com>

Comments: cc: The Bohemian Mailing List <BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>

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Qk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo=

 

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BCCB9B.0A72DB00--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:31:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bob Dylan, Standing In The Doorway.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Isn't Dylan opening for the Pope today.  Not certain I can get my head

>around that concept.  Who would have thunk it, back in '63.

> 

>J. Stauffer

> 

  Saw a quick clip of that on the news.  I think Dylan was doing "I Shall Be

Released" but the clip was so short it was hard to tell.  Great shot of the

Pope holding up a cigarette lighter though.

 

James Marshall

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 00:01:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi!  Those who have preordered The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. I, No. 2 will have

them mailed by Thursady this coming week. Hope you enjoy and thanks! Paul of

TKQ.

 

                           Visit!

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 07:31:18 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      STANDING ON THE HIGHWAY 1962( was Re: Bob Dylan,

              Standing In The Doorway)

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19970927185641.006b3f5c@maila.wm.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                   STANDING ON THE HIGHWAY    Words and Music by Bob Dylan

 

               Well, I'm standin' on the highway

               Tryin' to bum a ride, tryin' to bum a ride,

               Tryin' to bum a ride.

               Well, I'm standin' on the highway

               Tryin' to bum a ride, tryin' to bum a ride,

               Tryin' to bum a ride.

               Nobody seem to know me,

               Everybody pass me by.

 

               Well, I'm standin' on the highway

               Tryin' to hold up, tryin' to hold up,

               Tryin to hold up and be brave.

               Well, I'm standin' on the highway

               Tryin' to hold up, tryin to hold up and be brave.

               One roads goin' to the bright lights,

               The others goin' down to my grave.

 

               Well, I'm lookin' down at two card,

               They seem to be handmade.

               Well, I'm lookin' down at two card,

               They seem to be handmade.

               One looks like it's the ace of diamonds,

               The other looks like it is the ace of spades.

 

               Well, I'm standin' on the highway

               Watchin' my life roll by.

               Well, I'm standin' on the highway

               Watchin' my life roll by.

               Well, I'm standin' on the highway

               Tryin' to bum a ride.

 

               Well, I'm standin' on the highway

               Wonderin' where everybody went,

                                wonderin' where everybody went,

               Wonderin' where everybody went.

               Well, I'm standin' on the highway

               Wonderin' where everybody went,

                                wonderin' where everybody went,

               Wonderin' where everybody went.

               Please mister, pick me up,

               I swear I ain't gonna kill nobody's kids.

 

               I wonder if my good gal,

               I wonder if she knows I'm here,

               Nobody else seems to know I'm here.

               I wonder if my good gal,

               I wonder if she knows I'm here,

               Nobody else seems to know I'm here.

               If she knows I'm here, Lawd,

               I wonder if she said a prayer.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 07:37:20 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Bob Dylan, Standing In The Doorway.

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19970927185641.006b3f5c@maila.wm.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 18.56 27/09/97 -0400, Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU> wrote:

>Great post Rinaldo.  what album is this from?

> 

>Jon

> 

>At 12:22 AM 9/28/97 +0200, you wrote:

>>Standing In The Doorway                 by Bob Dylan

 

Jon,

 

the album is:[23sep97]Time Out Of Mind

 

---

songs of yesterday Bologna concert at the Pope presence

27th sep 97 i saw the event televised:

 

        (start of the performance)

1)Knockin'at the haven's door, 2)Hard rain's gonna fall

 

        (hanshake with the Pope JPII)

 

3)Forever young

 

        (end of the performance)

---

 

saluti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:01:25 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Thanks

 

-----Original Message-----

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, September 26, 1997 6:41 AM

Subject: Re: Thanks

 

 

RACE wrote:

> 

>hi leon ... say hello to Anne M. ...

> 

>wow!!!  25 times is a lot of times.

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

>.-

Hi David,

 

Can't oblige, cause Anne went back home.  She spent one day in Santa Cruz to

look at a place that she found and expects to move into in a month or so. I

will forward your comment to her though.

 

BTW, since we are talking already let me pass on a bit of gossip. I know

gossip is a part of the appetizer menu (nothing juicy though), or are these

just deserts of the Beat-L Diner club.

 

Driving Ann to the train station we stopped to have lunch with John Cassady

who between hillarious renditions of "Popster" Neal tales, also threw in

some info that I have seen Beat-L folks inquire about

 

Somebody lamented the fact that one has to go to an overseas University to

hear somebody like Carolyn Cassady in person. Well you can stop fretting.

Carolyn is coming for her annual visit to the USA, and will among other

places give a lecture at the University of California Santa Cruz, in late

November. I forget the exact date, but I think it is the 29th.

 

Yes, pictures aplenty, even a video was made of the passing away of the

Cassady house in Los Gatos. John also showed us a letter to the Editor that

was published in the local papers that Carolyn sent from London, asking the

Cassady fans not to blame anybody for the destruction of the hose. It was

the termites who destroyed the house, she said in the letter. She herself

had planned to tear it down some time ago and replace it, but didn't have

the money.

 

Among other hillariously related Neal stories, John told us about the time

last spring when his mother and he were invited to the Coppola residence for

discussion about the projected movie. John relates that Daddy Coppola passed

the project on to his son, and that their decision at the time was firm not

to use any professional actors. A black and white movie with amateur actors

was seen at that time anyway as the only way to try to do justice to OTR. He

doesn't know what the hold ups are.

 

As to nomination for parts, John thinks that his own son, Jamie, would make

an excellent Neal. I must say that from what I have seen of Jamie I totally

agree. He is young, very neal like handsomeness, Neal like energies, which

include a similar charmer appeal to the ladies. Any Coppola people keeping

an eye on this list? I didn't ask permission to tell you this, I just don't

think

 

John would mind.

 

Oh yes, both John and Ann reaffirm, they thought the Suicide movie didn't

get it.  They described it in aromatic terms.

 

Sorry David, as  weekend Beatnik these days I miss a lot of the mail that I

run through quickly. If you asked me something some time ago, maybe I will

dig it up yet. I wish I had more time.

 

Have a great weekend eveybody,

 

Leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:18:16 -0400

Reply-To:     Corduroy <corduroy@earthlink.net>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Corduroy <corduroy@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Announcing -- Bohemian Ink / Published in Heaven

Comments: To: Jerry Aronson <JAR1945@aol.com>, Waterrow <waterrow@aol.com>,

          Steve Silberman <digaman@hotwired.com>,

          Scott Rettburg <authors.guide@miningco.com>,

          Redmon Barbry <rbarb@deltos.deltos.com>,

          "John S. Hall" <JOHNSHALL@aol.com>,

          Jeffrey Michael Richards <jmricha1@midway.uchicago.edu>,

          Jack Bowman <dapoets@bright.net>, GPS <zero@dircon.co.uk>,

          Dan Levy <danlevy@levity.com>,

          CRKSBOYE23@aol.com, Bob Holman <MouthMight@aol.com>,

          Bil Brown <bil@orca.sitesonthe.net>,

          Allen Hougland <wolfe@voicenet.com>

Comments: cc: antiweb@pobox.com, The Bohemian Mailing List

          <BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hundreds of new pages,

information for the next millenium,

flashy little buttons that light up

when you press them just the right way,

tell-tale packets on some of our net heros

such as Paul McDonald and Ron Whithead,

just to name a few (and there are more!)..

 

What can this be?

A blatent disrespect of your privacy?

More unwanted spam intended to get you to

pull up an internet page with a snappy

BUY TODAY slogan?

 

Ohhh, you'd be wrong to stop there!

 

Announcing, the Grand Opening (like that?) of:

 

T H E  B O H E M I A N  I N K (imagine that flashing).

@ http://www.levity.com/corduroy

 

The database is getting to huge to handle,

so your surfing needs have been met with

alphabetized sections of all the authors,

as well as meangingless labeling of their genres

meant to confuse you in a much better way than ever before!

 

That address again?

 

T H E  B O H E M I A N  I N K (still flashing).

@ http://www.levity.com/corduroy

 

Press the link now! Don't put it in your read-later file!

Just so you don't forget:

 

T H E  B O H E M I A N  I N K (yup, flashing).

@ http://www.levity.com/corduroy

 

 

 

And so on and so forth. Marketing is too much for me.

 

                        (cR)

 

 

__________

.........|   Bohemian Ink: http://www.levity.com/corduroy

.o..o..o.|

.........|              christopher d. ritter

--------.|            - corduroy@earthlink.net -

 ==|_|  ||

==[===] || "There is a struggle going on for the minds of

  |___| ||  American people. Every form of expression is

--------.|  subject to the attack of reaction. This attack

..KRUPS..|  comes in the shape of silence, persecution,

.........|  and censorship: three names for fear."

 ========                             - Circle, 1948 -

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:55:31 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      calandro

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19970927185641.006b3f5c@maila.wm.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

http://www.webcity.it/aldorock/index.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 03:01:17 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Taboory;  WARNING: Lengthy rambling about trivia,

              much ado about nothing

 

 Hi Matt,

 

Sorry it's been so long since I visited the list, not only that, but I can't

find that post in which, i think it wa you, asked me if I was the Taboory

mentioned in Tom Wolfe's Electric Acid Test.

 

Well, yes it is.

 

There is also something here that does relate somewhat to a recent thread

which lamented the decline in journalistic standards. It was suggested that

the fierce competition for reader market share, led to sensationalism,

entertainment priorities leading to compromises with the accuracy in

reporting.

It was suggested that opinion increasingly infiltrates and pollutes

objectivity in journalism.

 

Perhaps you are aware that Tom Wolfe, the author of The Electric Cool Aid

Acid Test, was a pioneer innovator who advocated and practiced "Subjective

Journalism". The ECAAT itself was looked at as an example of it, even if it

was ostensibly a work of fiction.

 

I am not knocking Wolfe. I love the book very much, and find most of it very

close to what I observed first hand. Some of it very clearly tape recorded

material. It is nevertheless interesting that when it came to characters and

situations that were of very little importance to the book, that he didn't

bother to find out the true situation. It really is of no consequence to the

book or me if my name is Tabory and not Taboory, and perhaps that was  just

a typo that ecaped the proofreader's scrutiny. Still, in the old objective

journalism schools, big emphasis was placed upon not misspelling a name.

 

I am not complaining. I am flattered to be given a footnote in history. It

is less of a distortion of my name than in an earlier, maybe the first,

pamphlet that describes a challenge to the Marijuana laws in California. The

name of it was Marijuana and it was a transcript of hearings in the trial of

Richard Bloomer, a black guy who was a North Beach Beatnik habitue. His

older brother who was a painter on the North Beach was arrested for a

possession of Marijuana before him, busted at a beatnik North Beach pot

party, and died in jail of a heart attack. Richard was stopped a short time

thereafter, a couple of blocks from the City Lights, he was searched and

arrested for posession of a matchbook full of Marijuana.

 

I was still a Psychologist at that time, just beginning to discover what was

going on with marijuana, I felt horrified of how the life of the gentle

idealistic intellectual artist came to an end because jail was too much for

him to handle. I also knew Richard personally quite well. Of course I was

willing to help with testimony at the trial. The lawyer decided to go for a

plea bargain, but in writing up the case in a pamphlet I was endowed with a

PH.D degree and my name became Dr. Tarboy. I guess Taboory is not as bad as

Tarboy. But even court reporters can misspell names. I have since seen that

very rarely do journalists take much time to get their facts straight about

matters that are not the heart of their stories.

 

What did offend me much more than a misspelling of my name was that the

situation at the Barn was tailored to fit an ending for the book.It was not

quite the way it came down. First of all the Barn was described as some sort

of nightclub. It made fun of a group of serious and talented jazz musicians

who took their name "The New Dimensions" quite seriously. Wolfe took the

Barn away from me and gave me a job there as manager. That was kind of funny

to me. I bought the place with one objective in mind, to provide a launching

pad for psychedelic pioneers. I was a therapist, I was a practicing

psychologist who was turned on to Marijuana and to LSD later, by Neal, after

having been close friends for several years. I had no commercial interest in

making money in the place. I wanted to provide a forum for local talent to

be expressed and encouraged, for community people to gather and appreciate

themselves. For the psychedelic community to shine a light in the larger

community.While I admired greatly Kesey and the pranksters, we were not

playing the same game in the same way. We were a small town group of people

interested in supporting each other. We did not stake out the beacon to the

world territory, we were not pranksters ourselves.

 

I was very upset when the pranksters came in and ran over that group

aggressively. I did not side with Kesey. Nor was I taking into consideration

Kesey's stature. Yet Wolfe says that I decided to side with Kesey because he

was a giant. Wolfe never interviewed me or asked me any questions about

anything. What realy happened was that I tried to talk the musicians of the

New Dimensions group into staying, I promised them that I would not allow

the pranksters to interfere with their music any more. But they felt too

insulted. When they left, I  allowed the pranksters to go on and do their

thing. To begin with the pranksters were there because Neal asked me to give

them a place to park the bus and for some of the pranksters to stay there

until they found a place. To help them out. I had to ask them to leave later

because they would leave roaches in the ashtrays when I was trying very hard

to keep the place from being busted. They did not particularly like me after

that. They were telling my friends that I was paranoid. They did not bother

to find out that there were police detectives present most of the time, and

eventually did arrest us in a case that didn't stand up in court.

 

As I said, much ado about nothing. I still am in awe of what the pranksters

have accomplished. I am still in awe of the book that Tom Wolfe wrote about

them. I am also glad to have an opportunity to bring to light inaccuracies

that were not malicious, that were most likely not deliberate distortions,

they do show us how little respect the high and the mighty can have for the

unimportant people who might be in their way.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:53:18 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      If We Take by Charles Bukowski.

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19970927185641.006b3f5c@maila.wm.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

--from the poem, " If We Take"  by Charles Bukowski

 

but they've left us a bit of music

and a spiked show in the corner,

a jigger of scotch, a blue necktie,

a small volume of poems by rimbuaud,

a horse running as if the devil

were twisting his tail

over bluegrass and screaming,

and then,

love again

like a streetcar turning the corner

on time,

the city waiting,

the wine and the flowers,

the water walking across the lake

and summer and winter

and summer and summer

and winter again

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:06:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Bob Dylan, Standing In The Doorway.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jonathan Pickle wrote:

> 

> Great post Rinaldo.  what album is this from?

> 

> Jon

Jon:

 

It is from Time Out Of Mind, to be released September 30th.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:27:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Some of the Dharma cheap!

In-Reply-To:  <342E8EA3.5322A07B@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

For those of you who have not yet purchased "Some of the Dharma", you can

now do so cheaply!  The Strand bookstore in NYC has a whole stack of

brand new, shrinkwrapped, "Some of the Dharma" copies available for

$22.00, more than ten bucks off the $32.95 cover price.

 

Just thought I'd pass that along...

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:37:57 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Some of the Dharma cheap!

 

WOW!!  thanks Richard, got an address or phone # for those of us on the Left

Coast?

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:10:28 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <fi@pop3.smart.net>

From:         Fiona Webster <fi@OCEANSTAR.COM>

Organization: http://www.oceanstar.com

Subject:      new album from Patti Smith

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

All the news about Patti Smith's new album, called

_Peace and Noise_, at:

 

        a patti smith babelogue

        http://www.oceanstar.com/patti/

 

This album has a really stirring rendition of "Footnote to Howl" by

Allen Ginsberg.  It's titled "Spell" on the CD.  It's also coming

out on vinyl.

 

                                --Fiona Webster

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:53:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Can anyone quote me the passage where Burroughs says "In the beginning was

not the word" or something to this equivalent, and tell me where it comes

from? I don't know, it may be the same place where he says, "Language is a

virus".

 

Thanks,

Leo

 

 

"Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of

your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,

you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly

will. Ad astra per aspera."  --Jack Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:12:48 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Kesey recovering after mild stroke (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Let's think many good thoughts for the PrankStar.

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: 28 Sep 1997 23:42:23 GMT

From: LPortzline <lportzline@aol.com>

Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

Subject: Kesey recovering after mild stroke

 

>From the Boston Globe Online:

 

Author Ken Kesey recovering after mild stroke

 

Associated Press, 09/28/97 14:16

 

EUGENE, Ore. (AP) - Author Ken Kesey was recovering in a hospital Sunday

from a mild stroke suffered last week.

 

Kesey, 62, awoke from an afternoon nap Thursday at his home in Pleasant

Hill and found he was unable to use his right arm, said Ed Jolley, his

stepfather.

 

The author of ``One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest'' was admitted to Sacred

Heart Medical Center in Eugene, where he has since regained some use of his

arm, Jolley said.

 

He was listed in serious but stable condition Sunday and was expected to

be transferred out of the intensive care unit Monday, a nursing supervisor

said.

 

Kesey was a major counterculture figure in the 1960s. He and a group of

friends nicknamed The Merry Pranksters made a cross-country bus trip in

1964 that Tom Wolfe chronicled in his book ``The Electric Kool-Aid Acid

Test.'' Kesey's other books include ``Sometimes A Great Notion'' and ``Last

Go Round.''

 

http://www.boston.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:06:52 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Malcolm Lawrence <malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>

Organization: Babel Publishing

Subject:      British newspaper backs decriminalization of personal cannabis

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

The Independent On Sunday, an influential British newspaper, yesterday

threw its weight behind the campaign to decriminalise cannabis in

Britain. I couldn't believe it either. Pretty fascinating turn of

events.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sindy/stories/A2809703.html

 

Enjoy

 

Malcs

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:31:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac in Rocky Mount, NC

 

thought some of you all may enjoy this.

 

<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/KerouacNC/index.html">Kerouac's Rocky Mount, N

.C.</A>

 

 

john j dorfner

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:01:36 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: British newspaper backs decriminalization of personal cannabis

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:06:52 -0700 Malcolm Lawrence wrote:

 

> From: Malcolm Lawrence <malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>

> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:06:52 -0700

> Subject: British newspaper backs decriminalization of

personal cannabis

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> The Independent On Sunday, an influential British

newspaper, yesterday

> threw its weight behind the campaign to decriminalise

cannabis in

> Britain. I couldn't believe it either. Pretty fascinating

turn of

> events.

 

The Independant and the Observer are actually both quite

orientated towards this, and have been for some time.  There

are quite a few influential publications/people who support

this campaign, but due to the "systematic demonisation of

drug use in this country" (or words to that effect - WSB in

Drugstore Cowboy) there is still a reluctance to bring the

debate onto a national level.  In some quarters there is

still a "drugs are the tools of Satan" philosophy.  This is

unfortunate, but will hopefully eventually be remedied.

 

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:17:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: British newspaper backs decriminalization of personal cannabis

In-Reply-To:  <ECS9709291436A@smtp.uea.ac.uk>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Tom Harberd wrote:

 

> this campaign, but due to the "systematic demonisation of

> drug use in this country" (or words to that effect - WSB in

> Drugstore Cowboy)

 

That line was actually written by James Grauerholz, who wrote most of the

Father Murphy character in Drugstore Cowboy.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:20:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat List

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Just finished reading Magda Cregg's "Hey Lew," wonderful tributes/memories

of Lew Welch.  I had not known before that pop musician Huey Lewis, Magda's

son, took his stage name from his beat stepfather.  Interesting connections

abound in this weird world.  So, the question is, if Lucien Carr and WSB's

sons and Kerouac's daughter are automatically to be included in a Beat

List, does Huey Lewis also qualify? (I ask this rather tongue in

cheek...I've always considered Huey Lewis to be one of the squarest pop

singers around.)

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:44:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat List

In-Reply-To:  <199709291420.JAA02495@mail.execpc.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I will say that I dont consider Caleb Carr beat at all.  Doesnt write beat

at least.  Not much of a beat life from what Ive heard.  Jan and Billy are

beat because they _are_.  Lived life to its beatest and played a major

role in their deaths.  Huey Lewis (though I have a fondness for his

straight on rocknroll in this world in which musicians and singers have to

be artists and cant really just have fun making music) is no beat.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:16:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat List

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jim,

 

> I've always considered Huey Lewis to be one of the squarest pop

> singers around.)

 

Ah yes, but in Huey's own words. . .  "it's hip to be square."

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Bruce

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:26:10 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Beat List

In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:20:37 -0500 from

              <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

 

Now you can be a Beat through heredity?   I have my doubts that "Beatness" is i

n the genes or the jeans (levi or otherwise).  Caleb Carr can't be considered a

 Beat, under any circumstances, in my opinion.  I'm sure he doesn't consider hi

mself a beat -- far from it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:58:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         George Russell <CodyPomera@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Bleak Houses

 

    NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 28, 1997--There has always been

talk of a crisis in book publishing.  But, as Ken Auletta reports in

the October 6, 1997, issue of The New Yorker, this time the crisis

may be real.  During the past year, the owners of two of the major

publishing houses, Simon & Schuster and HarperCollins, have explored

the idea of selling them.  The business has lost so much of its

appeal that, as Auletta writes, "for the first time that anyone in

the industry can remember no one is buying."

          A senior executive at Viacom, which owns Simon & Schuster, says,

"We're obviously listening."  But one insider says Viacom needs to

be offered enough money to cover taxes owed on the sale and pay down

the publisher's bank debt.  An investment banker who has been

consulted on a similar deal tells The New Yorker, "Trade-book

publishing is a lousy business at the moment, and there is no

prospect of its improving.  There's nobody to sell to.  You might

find a cash buyer for a smaller publisher.  The big ones are

unsalable for cash."  Auletta reports that Rupert Murdoch has

broached the subject of a sale of his HarperCollins, one of the

biggest and most venerable trade publishers, with a nontraditional

buyer, Leonard Riggio, the chairman and chief executive officer of

Barnes & Noble.  According to Riggio, he and Murdoch have agreed to

meet in New York soon.

          In Auletta's article, several major publishers make rare

disclosures on their companies' profitability.  Alberto Vitale, the

chairman and C.E.O. of Random House Inc., says, "We're not losing

money, but we're not making money commensurate with the effort.  We

are in the single-digit profit margins."  Michael Naumann, who runs

Henry Holt & Company, concedes that it was not profitable last

year.  "Almost everybody...either is doing some creative accounting

or has made a small profit, but it's not going to be a profit worth

writing home about," Naumann says.

          Traditionally, publishing has been regarded as more than just a

business; there was pride in putting out something that became part

of the culture.  "What makes the current crisis in adult trade book

publishing remarkable," Auletta writes, "is this: for the first

time, publishing companies are being looked at simply for the money

they make.  And they don't look good -- certainly not when they are

compared with other companies in the content business."

          Publishers and booksellers, too, are hurting.  Industry figures

from the Association of American Publishers show that the number of

adult trade hardcover books being bought, together with the amount

of money spent on them, has declined for two years in a row, with

hardcover sales falling almost ten per cent.  Superstore chains like

Barnes & Noble and the Borders Group, which account for about forty

per cent of sales of adult hardcover trade books, continue to make a

profit.  Yet these powerful retailers are widely misunderstood.

Auletta writes, "It is an article of faith within the publishing

colony that the chains shrink the market for mid-list books by

selling only best-sellers, yet Barnes & Noble's Riggio let me see an

internal document showing that the Times' hardcover best-sellers

represented only 2.9 per cent of all books the chain sold in August,

1997, and that fifty-nine per cent of all trade books sold in Barnes

      & Noble were backlisted books (titles published at least twelve

months earlier); in August, backlisted books account for fifty-three

per cent of the chain's dollar book sales."  Another Barnes & Noble

document obtained by The New Yorker reveals that last year,

fifty-one per cent of books sold by the chain came from outside the

top ten publishing houses, mostly from university presses and

smaller houses.  Auletta remarks on the overlooked fact that the

majority of books purchased -- fifty-three per cent -- are sold

through such non-bookstore vendors as price clubs, book clubs,

discount stores like Wal-Mart, drugstores, airports, supermarkets,

and so on.

          In "The Impossible Business," Auletta studies the future of

publishing.  He examines the notion that electronic publishing could

make bookstores, and the traditional book made of printed and bound

paper itself, obsolete.  Borders Group plans to launch an on-line

book business.  Barnes & Noble has already done so, but Len Riggio

believes it won't cut into his bookstore sales at all.  "I think the

Internet business will be huge, but it won't diminish the retail

business at all," he says.  "Book shopping is a recreational

experience."  A handful of publishers, meanwhile, have held

confidential talks about creating a jointly owned electronic

bookstore that would compete with Barnes & Noble and Amazon.com, a

Seattle-based electronic book store that offers two and a half

million titles.  One senior executive says, "The real fight is going

to be whether publishers are bright enough and capable enough to

form their own distribution system."

          The October 6th issue of The New Yorker goes on sale at

newsstands on Monday, September 29th.

      CONTACT:

      Maurie Perl

      Vice President, Public Relations

      212/536-5893

      or

      Eileen Murphy

      Director, Public Relations

      212/536-5748

      or

      Jennifer Bluestein

      Publicist

      212/536-5898

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:13:42 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What Happened to Kerouac?  the movie

In-Reply-To:  <342CAABD.7BD75B8F@iquest.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Rod Macy wrote:

 

> Just finished watching What Happened to Kerouac?  Excellent movie

> overall.  I recommend it to all on the list EXCEPT for its high price:

> $69.95!  Good interviews and decent information.  But get it for the

> performance on the Steve Allen Show and his drunken appearance on

> William Buckley's program.

> 

> Eric Macy

> 

> If anyone wants more info, just write and I'll post it

 

Glad to hear it's good.  I watched "Life and Times of Ginsberg" this

weekend.  Great show.  The JK movie is next on my list.  There is a great

video store here (in Tucson) called Casa Video that has every movie EVER!

I love that store!  I was afraid I was going to have to call that

Home Video Fair thingy.

 

Jorgiana>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:17:16 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Bob Dylan, Standing In The Doorway.

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To:  <342D9652.6ADF@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Isn't Dylan opening for the Pope today.  Not certain I can get my head

> around that concept.  Who would have thunk it, back in '63.

> 

> J. Stauffer

 

 

The local paper had a GREAT shot of Dylan in a big white cowboy hat

playing guitar and singing with Pope JP sitting in the background

grinning beatifically!  Ironic.

 

Jorgiana>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:14:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Bleak Houses

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My favorite "bitch" subject!  Thanks to whoever posted it.  If it weren't for

the small and medium publishing houses (heck, compared to the beheamoths in this

article standards FS&G is a small house!) new authors would never get

published....unless they changed their names to Steele King Crighton Clancy.

Money is not only the root of all evil, it is the death of art.

 

It's not tough to imagine....Kerouac would not be published today....

 

love and lilies (bought from an independent florist)

 

matt h.

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Bleak Houses

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    9/29/97 1:58 PM

 

 

    NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 28, 1997--There has always been

talk of a crisis in book publishing.  But, as Ken Auletta reports in

the October 6, 1997, issue of The New Yorker, this time the crisis

may be real.  During the past year, the owners of two of the major

publishing houses, Simon & Schuster and HarperCollins, have explored

the idea of selling them.  The business has lost so much of its

appeal that, as Auletta writes, "for the first time that anyone in

the industry can remember no one is buying."

          A senior executive at Viacom, which owns Simon & Schuster, says,

"We're obviously listening."  But one insider says Viacom needs to

be offered enough money to cover taxes owed on the sale and pay down

the publisher's bank debt.  An investment banker who has been

consulted on a similar deal tells The New Yorker, "Trade-book

publishing is a lousy business at the moment, and there is no

prospect of its improving.  There's nobody to sell to.  You might

find a cash buyer for a smaller publisher.  The big ones are

unsalable for cash."  Auletta reports that Rupert Murdoch has

broached the subject of a sale of his HarperCollins, one of the

biggest and most venerable trade publishers, with a nontraditional

buyer, Leonard Riggio, the chairman and chief executive officer of

Barnes & Noble.  According to Riggio, he and Murdoch have agreed to

meet in New York soon.

          In Auletta's article, several major publishers make rare

disclosures on their companies' profitability.  Alberto Vitale, the

chairman and C.E.O. of Random House Inc., says, "We're not losing

money, but we're not making money commensurate with the effort.  We

are in the single-digit profit margins."  Michael Naumann, who runs

Henry Holt & Company, concedes that it was not profitable last

year.  "Almost everybody...either is doing some creative accounting

or has made a small profit, but it's not going to be a profit worth

writing home about," Naumann says.

          Traditionally, publishing has been regarded as more than just a

business; there was pride in putting out something that became part

of the culture.  "What makes the current crisis in adult trade book

publishing remarkable," Auletta writes, "is this: for the first

time, publishing companies are being looked at simply for the money

they make.  And they don't look good -- certainly not when they are

compared with other companies in the content business."

          Publishers and booksellers, too, are hurting.  Industry figures

from the Association of American Publishers show that the number of

adult trade hardcover books being bought, together with the amount

of money spent on them, has declined for two years in a row, with

hardcover sales falling almost ten per cent.  Superstore chains like

Barnes & Noble and the Borders Group, which account for about forty

per cent of sales of adult hardcover trade books, continue to make a

profit.  Yet these powerful retailers are widely misunderstood.

Auletta writes, "It is an article of faith within the publishing

colony that the chains shrink the market for mid-list books by

selling only best-sellers, yet Barnes & Noble's Riggio let me see an

internal document showing that the Times' hardcover best-sellers

represented only 2.9 per cent of all books the chain sold in August,

1997, and that fifty-nine per cent of all trade books sold in Barnes

      & Noble were backlisted books (titles published at least twelve

months earlier); in August, backlisted books account for fifty-three

per cent of the chain's dollar book sales."  Another Barnes & Noble

document obtained by The New Yorker reveals that last year,

fifty-one per cent of books sold by the chain came from outside the

top ten publishing houses, mostly from university presses and

smaller houses.  Auletta remarks on the overlooked fact that the

majority of books purchased -- fifty-three per cent -- are sold

through such non-bookstore vendors as price clubs, book clubs,

discount stores like Wal-Mart, drugstores, airports, supermarkets,

and so on.

          In "The Impossible Business," Auletta studies the future of

publishing.  He examines the notion that electronic publishing could

make bookstores, and the traditional book made of printed and bound

paper itself, obsolete.  Borders Group plans to launch an on-line

book business.  Barnes & Noble has already done so, but Len Riggio

believes it won't cut into his bookstore sales at all.  "I think the

Internet business will be huge, but it won't diminish the retail

business at all," he says.  "Book shopping is a recreational

experience."  A handful of publishers, meanwhile, have held

confidential talks about creating a jointly owned electronic

bookstore that would compete with Barnes & Noble and Amazon.com, a

Seattle-based electronic book store that offers two and a half

million titles.  One senior executive says, "The real fight is going

to be whether publishers are bright enough and capable enough to form

their own distribution system."

          The October 6th issue of The New Yorker goes on sale at

newsstands on Monday, September 29th.

      CONTACT:

      Maurie Perl

      Vice President, Public Relations

      212/536-5893

      or

      Eileen Murphy

      Director, Public Relations

      212/536-5748

      or

      Jennifer Bluestein

      Publicist

      212/536-5898

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:53:39 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Trying To Get To Heaven Re: Bob Dylan, Standing In The Doorway.

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A41.3.96.970929111630.15268C-100000@lucia.u.arizona.e du>

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At 11.17 29/09/97 -0700, Jorgiana S Jake wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

> 

>> Isn't Dylan opening for the Pope today.  Not certain I can get my head

>> around that concept.  Who would have thunk it, back in '63.

>> 

>> J. Stauffer

> 

> 

>The local paper had a GREAT shot of Dylan in a big white cowboy hat

>playing guitar and singing with Pope JP sitting in the background

>grinning beatifically!  Ironic.

> 

>Jorgiana>

> 

Hello amici beat,

 

Bob Dylan's great & his positive attitude wasn't submissive,

 

after two songs a hanshake with Pope and after a song to finish,

 

i dunno why u see grinning the Pope JPII, he's an OLD Man,

also Bob IS an Old Man but both are FOREVER YOUNG.

 

---

 

Trying To Get To Heaven         by Bob Dylan (1997)

 

The air is getting hotter, there's a rumblin' in the skies

I've been wading through the high muddy water

With the heat risin' in my eyes

Every day your memory grows dimmer

It doesn't haunt me like it did before

I've been walking through the middle of nowhere

Tryin' to get to heaven before they close the door

 

When I was in Missouri they would not let me be

I had to leave there in a hurry

I only saw what they let me see

You broke a heart that loved you

Now you can seal up the book and not write anymore

I've been walkin' that lonesome valley

Tryin' to get to heaven before they close the door

 

People on the platforms, waitin' for the trains

I can hear their hearts a-beatin'

Like pendulums swinging on their chains

When you think that you lost everything

You find out you can always lose a little more

I'm just goin' down the road feeling bad

Tryin' to get to heaven before they close the door

 

I'm goin' down the river, down to New Orleans

They tell me everything is gonna be all right

But I don't know what all right even means

I was ridin' in a buggy with Miss Mary Jane

Miss Mary Jane got a house in Baltimore

I've been all around the world, boys

And I'm tryin' to get to heaven before they close the door

 

Gonna sleep down in the parlor and relive my dreams

I close my eyes and I wonder

If everything is as hollow as it seems

Some trains don't pull no gamblers

No midnight ramblers, like they did before

I've been to sugar town, I shook the sugar down

Now I'm tryin' to get to heaven before they close the door

 

---

 

Cari saluti per tutti da

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:54:03 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      The Alienist. Re: Beat List

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997092912293733@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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At 12.26 29/09/97 EDT, Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET> wrote:

>Now you can be a Beat through heredity?   I have my doubts that "Beatness"

is i

>n the genes or the jeans (levi or otherwise).  Caleb Carr can't be

considered a

> Beat, under any circumstances, in my opinion.  I'm sure he doesn't

consider hi

>mself a beat -- far from it.

> 

> 

hello friends,

i'm reading _The Alienist_ written by Caleb Carr.

the book is wonderfull engaging!

saluti,

rinaldo * not a competent beat *

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:46:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: What Happened to Kerouac?  the movie

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At 11:13 AM 9/29/97 -0700, you wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Rod Macy wrote:

> 

>> Just finished watching What Happened to Kerouac?  Excellent movie

>> overall.  I recommend it to all on the list EXCEPT for its high price:

>> $69.95!  Good interviews and decent information.  But get it for the

>> performance on the Steve Allen Show and his drunken appearance on

>> William Buckley's program.

>> 

>> Eric Macy

>> 

>> If anyone wants more info, just write and I'll post it

> 

>Glad to hear it's good.  I watched "Life and Times of Ginsberg" this

>weekend.  Great show.  The JK movie is next on my list.  There is a great

>video store here (in Tucson) called Casa Video that has every movie EVER!

>I love that store!  I was afraid I was going to have to call that

>Home Video Fair thingy.

> 

>Jorgiana>

> 

> 

Why would anyone buy a film at $69.95 or any price over $20, when you

can simply rent it and make your own copy at home, macrovision or no

macrovision.  I keep hearing letters that complain about the cost of

these cassettes but its nothing to make a copy so what does it matter

what it costs except to a video store owner?

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:05:56 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Trying To Get To Heaven Re: Bob Dylan,

              Standing In The Doorway.

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I don't like left figures like Dylan palling it up with

religious figures like the Pope.  I read a story or two

about the meeting, also.  In the AP article I read, the

corrupt pope rose and gave a speech in which he used

Dylan's most famous early sixties lyrics to craft some

sort of spiritual message.  I know Dylan has supposedly

been thru a spiritual period.  But if I was a songwriter

and someone tried to attach new meaning to important

lyrics I had written, I would feel coopted and offended.

I can't believe Dylan believes otherwise.  A strong set

of values created those lyrics.  This is the man who beat

the crap out of A J Weberman for examining the garbage outside

his Greenwich Village home.

 

Mike Rice

 

 

>>The local paper had a GREAT shot of Dylan in a big white cowboy hat

>>playing guitar and singing with Pope JP sitting in the background

>>grinning beatifically!  Ironic.

>> 

>>Jorgiana>

>> 

>Hello amici beat,

> 

>Bob Dylan's great & his positive attitude wasn't submissive,

> 

>after two songs a hanshake with Pope and after a song to finish,

> 

>i dunno why u see grinning the Pope JPII, he's an OLD Man,

>also Bob IS an Old Man but both are FOREVER YOUNG.

> 

>---

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:24:07 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: your mail

Comments: To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>

In-Reply-To:  <l03010d00b05473d8dac6@[204.248.112.170]>

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On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, [iso-8859-1] Sinverg=FCenza wrote:

 

> Can anyone quote me the passage where Burroughs says "In the beginning wa=

s

> not the word" or something to this equivalent, and tell me where it comes

> from? I don't know, it may be the same place where he says, "Language is =

a

> virus".

>=20

> Thanks,

> Leo

>=20

>=20

> "Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of

> your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafte=

r,

> you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and man=

ly

> will. Ad astra per aspera."  --Jack Kerouac

>=20

Leo,

I don't know if Burroughs anywhere says, "In the beginning was not the

word." He has said just the opposite many times. For example, "It's quite

probable that at the real beginning point of what we call modern man was

speech. In the beginning was the word. I think the next step will have to

be beyond the word. The word is now an outmoded artifact. Any life form

that gets stuck with an outmoded built-in artifact is doomed to

destruction." (_The Job_, p. 98 in my copy). See also _Minutes to Go_:

Words=09=09Dealth=09by=09William Lee Dealer

No=09=09house percentage=09=09CUT

FUNCTION=09WITH=09BURROUGHS=09EVERY MAN

AN AGENT=09=09CUT

In THEE=09    beginning was THE word. . =09The word was a

virus. .=09"Function always comes before form" L Ron Hubbard

Virus made man..=09Man is virus..

(p.15; spacing approximate)

Anyone recall any other instances?

Cordially,

Michael Skau

9/29/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:43:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Contents of The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. I, No. 2

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These are the contnets of Vol. I, No. 2 of The Kerouac Quarterly out this week.

 

Domestic Apocalypse and the Thought of America by Michael Boughn

Unpublished Letter from Stella Sampas to Jack Kerouac dated September 15th, 1957

"a shining technique in the darkness...": Kerouac and Shakespeare by Paul Maher

A Random List of Books From Jack Kerouac's Personal Library

Beat In East Germany by Gerrit-Jan Berendse (Universiti of Canterbury,New

Zealand.

Interview with Lowell Fold Singer: Bob Martin by Phil Chaput

"A Man Who's Neither White Nor Black": Jack Kerouac and the Issue of Race

     by Rod Phillips, Michigan State U. - James Madison College

Part I: Listing of Archives of Burg Collection at NYPL

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:44:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Word = Virus

Comments: cc: DAVIDSROSEN@compuserve.com

 

Leo wrote:

 

"Can anyone quote me the passage where Burroughs says "in the beginning was

not the word" or something to this equivalent, and tell me where it comes

from?  I don't know, it may be the same place where he says, "Language is a

virus".

 

Leo:

 

Both of the quotes you are looking for can be found in AH POOK IS HERE AND

OTHER TEXTS, among the "other texts" in this compilation, namely THE BOOK OF

BREETHING and ELECTRONIC REVOLUTION.  This book was published in the UK in

1979, and I don't know of any U.S. edition, although ELECTRONIC REVOLUTION

appears in a small-format German edition of the same name.  On page 65, the

first 3 sentences of THE BOOK OF BREETHING are as follows:

 

"In the beginning was the word and the word was God and has remained one of

the mysteries ever since.

 

What is word?

 

To ask this question assumes the is of identity:  something that word

essentially is.

 

On page 155, near the end of ELECTRONIC REVOLUTION, there is this passage:

 

"I have frequently spoken of word and image as viruses or as acting as

viruses, and this is not an allegorical comparison.  It will be seen that the

falsifications in syllabic Western languages are in point of fact actual

virus mechanisms.  The IS of identity is in point of fact the virus

mechanism."

 

"The IS of identity" links the 2 passages and is the key to the equation of

word = virus, the imposition of identity as an infectious limitation upon and

distortion of reality.  Notice how WSB uses the term "is" to identify

identity as the virus mechanism.  It may seem at first glance that he is

caught in the very trap he is describing, but "is" can be used where IS is

concerned, or the plural "are" for languages whos words are the instruments

of identity.

 

I'm sure that variations of these quotes are to be found elsewhere in his

works, I can't think of where to find more at the moment.  Maybe other List

members can locate them as a sub-thread ("....a long thread of blood").  This

particular book, APIH, was fresh in my mind because I skimmed through it in

search of the "death needs time" passage that I submitted for David Rhaesa's

gathering of death-related Beat statements and revisited and was re-riveted

by these very items that you now inquire about.  What is going on here?  All

roads seem to lead to this relatively obscure WSB publication lately for me.

 The entire work, like all of his works, is well worth reading in its

entirety if you can obtain it, to grasp the full meaning and context of these

quotes.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:44:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Taboory;  WARNING: Lengthy rambling about trivia,

              much ado about nothing

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David Rhaesa at the Beat-Hotel writes:

 

Another wonderful story Leon.  Just heard from Bob when i got in that

Kesey had a mild stroke but seems to be doing fine.  Patricia is in

Texas but left a nice bed with patchwork quilt for me here in the 'puter

room.  Headed back to Salina after weekend in Kansas City (helping clean

my father's garage was about the most meaningful event) ... will catch

up with everyone's strings and threads tomorrow.

 

take care,

david rhaesa

in lawrence headed West

 

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

> As I said, much ado about nothing. I still am in awe of what the pranksters

> have accomplished. I am still in awe of the book that Tom Wolfe wrote about

> them. I am also glad to have an opportunity to bring to light inaccuracies

> that were not malicious, that were most likely not deliberate distortions,

> they do show us how little respect the high and the mighty can have for the

> unimportant people who might be in their way.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:47:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Thanks

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David from Beat-Hotel

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

> Sorry David, as  weekend Beatnik these days I miss a lot of the mail that I

> run through quickly. If you asked me something some time ago, maybe I will

> dig it up yet. I wish I had more time.

> 

> Have a great weekend eveybody,

> 

> Leon

 

Leon,

 

If i asked you something ... i'm certain that i long ago forgot what it

is.  Hope you and everyone else are having a great weekend (oops weekend

is over now...a great week!!!!)

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:43:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: new album from Patti Smith

In-Reply-To:  <199709282311.TAA28881@gemini.smart.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, Fiona Webster wrote:

 

> All the news about Patti Smith's new album, called

> _Peace and Noise_, at:

> 

>         a patti smith babelogue

>         http://www.oceanstar.com/patti/

> 

> This album has a really stirring rendition of "Footnote to Howl" by

> Allen Ginsberg.  It's titled "Spell" on the CD.  It's also coming

> out on vinyl.

> 

>                                 --Fiona Webster

> 

YEAH YES YIPPY!! I SAW pATTI LIVE AT AN ALLEN GINSBERG REMEMBRERANCE AND

SHE PLAYED "FOOTNOTE TO HOWL" IT S BEAUTIFUL AND THE MEMBER OF HIS BAND,

OLIVER RAY I THINK, WHO WROTE IT IS VERY VERY COOL.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:48:04 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: I hate when that happens. (fwd)

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Has anyone posted this note from Ken Babbs (good friend of Ken Kesey's)

yet?  Good to hear Ken K. is doing fine.  I am *not* prepared to lose

him too ...

 

> > > Kesey was taking a nap Thursday and when he woke up his right arm was

> > > paralyzed. Faye took him to the hospital, they did a couple quick tests,

> > > said, "Stroke" and immediately administered some new anti-clogging drug

 and

> > > put him in intensive care for a couple days. His progress has been

> > > amazingly good; he's getting movement in his hand and arm; he's out of

> > > intensive care; they are going to keep him in the hospital till about

> > > Thursday to keep an eye on him.

> > >

> > > He wanted to keep it all low key but someone revealed it to the local

 press

> > > and now it is out all over the place. He did a tv interview from the

> > > hospital today for a local station but beforehand had Hagen and me go out

> > > an get him something to wear so he wouldn't be in one of those ridiculous

> > > hospital gowns. We got him a U of O cowboy hat and his mom got him U of O

> > > sweat pants and sweat shirt and he looked real good on the news.

> > >

> > > that was a good thing to put on the web site. Maybe I'll add something

 else

> > > tomorrow.

> > >

> > > He still wants to go to S.F. for the be-in-again but we'll see about

> > > that.

> > >

> > > the bus made it back okay but it is pretty tawdry from being outside all

> > > summer and needs lots of touchup work.

> > >

> > > mo later

> > >

> > > babbs

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|              *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                    |

|                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:30:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Word = Virus

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david rhaesa writes from a Lawrence basement:

 

Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

> 

> "The IS of identity" links the 2 passages and is the key to the equation of

> word = virus, the imposition of identity as an infectious limitation upon and

> distortion of reality.  Notice how WSB uses the term "is" to identify

> identity as the virus mechanism.  It may seem at first glance that he is

> caught in the very trap he is describing, but "is" can be used where IS is

> concerned, or the plural "are" for languages whos words are the instruments

> of identity.

> 

> I'm sure that variations of these quotes are to be found elsewhere in his

> works, I can't think of where to find more at the moment.  Maybe other List

> members can locate them as a sub-thread ("....a long thread of blood").  This

> particular book, APIH, was fresh in my mind because I skimmed through it in

> search of the "death needs time" passage that I submitted for David Rhaesa's

> gathering of death-related Beat statements and revisited and was re-riveted

> by these very items that you now inquire about.  What is going on here?  All

> roads seem to lead to this relatively obscure WSB publication lately for me.

>  The entire work, like all of his works, is well worth reading in its

> entirety if you can obtain it, to grasp the full meaning and context of these

> quotes.

> 

> Regards,

> 

> Arthur S. Nusbaum

 

Perhaps "AH POOK" "IS" here NOW!!!!! :)

 

I sometimes think the virus part is at some level a routine as well.

Where you mentioned possible trap, I see a poke (pook?) at biological

medicine naming the virus is not the virus and so on and so on.  But

perhaps this thought just came to me from some odd part of the brain

that can be awakened in a Lawrence basement!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:33:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: I hate when that happens. (fwd)

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david rhaesa wrote from subterranean region near the Kaw:

 

Levi Asher wrote:

> 

> Has anyone posted this note from Ken Babbs (good friend of Ken Kesey's)

> yet?  Good to hear Ken K. is doing fine.  I am *not* prepared to lose

> him too ...

> 

> > > > Kesey was taking a nap Thursday and when he woke up his right arm was

> > > > paralyzed. Faye took him to the hospital, they did a couple quick tests,

> > > > said, "Stroke" and immediately administered some new anti-clogging drug

>  and

> > > > put him in intensive care for a couple days. His progress has been

> > > > amazingly good; he's getting movement in his hand and arm; he's out of

> > > > intensive care; they are going to keep him in the hospital till about

> > > > Thursday to keep an eye on him.

> > > >

> > > > He wanted to keep it all low key but someone revealed it to the local

>  press

> > > > and now it is out all over the place. He did a tv interview from the

> > > > hospital today for a local station but beforehand had Hagen and me go

 out

> > > > an get him something to wear so he wouldn't be in one of those

 ridiculous

> > > > hospital gowns. We got him a U of O cowboy hat and his mom got him U of

 O

> > > > sweat pants and sweat shirt and he looked real good on the news.

> > > >

> > > > that was a good thing to put on the web site. Maybe I'll add something

>  else

> > > > tomorrow.

> > > >

> > > > He still wants to go to S.F. for the be-in-again but we'll see about

> > > > that.

> > > >

> > > > the bus made it back okay but it is pretty tawdry from being outside all

> > > > summer and needs lots of touchup work.

> > > >

> > > > mo later

> > > >

> > > > babbs

>          |

> |                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

 

Thanks Levi ... I'd heard he was doing OK, but hadn't seen this note

yet.  Hope all is well in Brooklyn ... i mean queens....

 

dbr

 

> ------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:46:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hello again...

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david rhaesa wrote from a hidden beat-bat-cave in subterranean kaw

homesick anti-entropy blues project centre:

 

Entropy Operator wrote:

>  anybody know of anything that might be

> > going on near me? thanx! -jEnnIfEr

> >

> > ps. hiya RacE and patricia, how's the weather in good ole kansas? ;>

> >

jEnnIfEr,

 

weather is typical.  ragweed is flying in tornadoic mists through sinus

passages and temperatures are currently (1:44 am) nice!!!  Warning:

don't drive on Interstates with VENT on or Windows down or Ragweed

Monster will sneak up your nose and eat you from the inside.

 

david rhaesa

waking up and thinking of hitting the Interstate headed West

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:54:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bob Dylan, Standing In The Doorway.

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David Rhaesa placing John Deere Maximizer cap on head and sliding on red

converse tennis shoes to walk out to car stops to write:

 

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> Jonathan Pickle wrote:

> >

> > Great post Rinaldo.  what album is this from?

> >

> > Jon

> Jon:

> 

> It is from Time Out Of Mind, to be released September 30th.

> 

> Peace,

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> 

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

OH!!!! that's TODAY ... only 8 hours until House of Sight and Sound

opens in Salina ... better hit the road and camp out at the door.

 

david rhaesa

on his way out the door

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:13:09 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      David Amram book reviews (fwd)

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---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: 29 Sep 1997 22:15:43 GMT

From: LPortzline <lportzline@aol.com>

Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

Subject: David Amram book reviews

 

FROM:

http://www.latimes.com:80/HOME/NEWS/BOOKS/t000086472.html

 

Sunday, September 28, 1997

 

Los Angeles Times Book Review

 

 

 

By DAVID AMRAM

 

 

 

It is a cause for rejoicing that two new novels, both inspired by the

 

world of jazz, have been published at the same time.  "Man Walking on

 

Eggshells," by Herbert Simmons, and "The Bear Comes Home," by Rafi

 

Zabor, share authentic portrayals of the times, places and people who

 

inhabit a world many know little about.

 

 

 

In scenes of triumph and torture, compassion and humor, zest and candor,

 

Simmons and Zabor explore the unpredictable, ever-changing, tragicomic

 

days and nights of jazz musicians and the people in their lives.

 

 

 

Ultimately, both offer fresh views of American society as well as an

 

idea of what it was like--and still is-- to survive in a high-tech

 

industrial world and play music that is improvised on the spot and

 

created anywhere and everywhere out of passion for the moment.  Simmons

 

writes of a time and place long gone:  an America that has given us

 

musicians, singers, poets, painters, language, a sense of style and a

 

survival philosophy that have enriched the 20th century.  In a

 

brilliant, soulful, poetic style, he captures the feelings of the

 

neighborhoods, the sense of community and the sophistication of the

 

streets that provided the wellspring for many of America's most creative

 

and enduring masters of musical improvisation.  We feel as if we are

 

part of a handful of lucky souls at a 2-to-7 a.m.  session, listening to

 

great music that will never be heard again in the same way.  He takes

 

you backstage with the band and share conversations usually heard only

 

by musicians and their friends.

 

 

 

"Man Walking on Eggshells" is inspired by the music and life of Miles

 

Davis; the title is a quote from a famous description of Davis' trumpet

 

style.  What makes Simmons' novel so compelling is his daring to create

 

a fictional character based on but as unique as Davis himself, just as

 

jazz soloists use a standard tune as a point of departure to develop an

 

improvised composition based on a melody.

 

 

 

Raymond Douglas, the novel's central character, is an uncompromising

 

artist who journeys through pain and horror, joy and victory and

 

transcends mid-century America's artistic restrictions.  Simmons' prose,

 

like jazz, flows in a series of beautifully constructed improvisatory

 

passages of lyrical images, sounds and stories that invite us to wake up

 

and be part of the world from which this music originated--a world that

 

has all but vanished.  Thanks to Simmons, this precious part of our

 

history will remain alive in "Man Walking on Eggshells."

 

 

 

"The Bear Comes Home" achieves the seemingly impossible task of

 

combining fictional and real characters, actual events, music theory,

 

satire and fantasy with ease and panache.  The book's hero, a circus

 

bear, becomes a great jazz innovator on the alto saxophone, paying his

 

dues in a hilarious series of events that fill the pages of this wildly

 

picaresque novel.  We join the bear in musical adventures with actual

 

living jazz masters, a trip to jail, disastrous trips on the road and a

 

shattered romance (with a non-bear).  The Shakespeare-quoting,

 

sax-playing bear fulfills his search for musical greatness at the end of

 

the book, finally achieving his nirvana.

 

 

 

Zabor's style is invigorating.  Like Simmons, Zabor knows and loves jazz

 

and the world from which it comes.  His own experience as a professional

 

drummer and his brilliance as a music journalist give the novel a ring

 

of authenticity.  Set in a different time and place than "Man Walking on

 

Eggshells," "The Bear Comes Home" is like a modern-day "Don Quixote."

 

Poignant and touching moments combine with hilarious descriptions of the

 

bear's struggle in a story that anyone--whether familiar with jazz or

 

not--will find compelling and entertaining.

 

 

 

Read together, both books describe the jazz experience.  But each book

 

also stands on its own in celebrating the glory and courage of dedicated

 

musicians following their hearts.  Just as it is a joy to hear Miles

 

Davis and Charlie Parker play together, each of their solo efforts is

 

equally fulfilling.  The same may be said of "Man Walking on Eggshells"

 

and "The Bear Comes Home."  As the music we call jazz is finally finding

 

its rightful place in the country in which it was created, we are ready

 

to embrace a new body of fiction based in the many traditions of this

 

century's jazz experience.

 

 

 

 - - -

 

 

 

David Amram Is a Symphonic Composer, Jazz Musician and Author Who Worked

 

With Jack Kerouac, Dizzy Gillespie and Leonard Bernstein.

 

 

 

http://www.latimes.com:80/HOME/NEWS/BOOKS/t000086472.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:17:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Burroughs in the Norton

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Halloo everyone,

 

The austere canonising W. W. Norton recently released an anthology of

postmodern fiction, and our man  Burroughs features quite prominently. Not

to start the Canon Fodder thread again, but I'm glad he's in there.

 

Here's the by-line:

 

Postmodern American Fiction

A Norton Anthology

 

Edited by Paula Geyh, Fred G. Leebron, and Andrew Levy

 

>From William S. Burroughs to David Foster Wallace, Postmodern American

Fiction offers up witty, risky, exhilarating, groundbreaking fiction from

five decades of postwar American life. It includes works by sixty-eight

authors: short fiction, novels, cartoons, graphics, hypertexts, creative

nonfiction, and theoretical writings. This is the first anthology to do

full justice to the vast range of American innovation in fiction writing

since 1945.

 

And here's the Burroughs piece in the anthology:

 

WILLIAM BURROUGHS (1914-1997)

Nova Express

   Crab Nebula

 

I can't recall that section off the top of my head, but will read it when

I get home. I have a funny feeling it will be a passage without any

nastiness or scatology. Anyone else have any thoughts on the Crab Nebula

section of Nova Express as a choice for a representative passage? I think

I'll mosey on down to the local University bookstore one of these days and

read their bio/critical intro about Burroughs.

 

If anyone wants to check it out, they also have the full table of contents

at their website at http://www.wwnorton.com

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:27:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: In the beginning was the word

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.ULT.3.96.970929191329.15562A-100000@cwis.unomaha.edu>

MIME-version: 1.0

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> On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, [iso-8859-1] Sinverg=FCenza wrote:

>=20

> > Can anyone quote me the passage where Burroughs says "In the beginning =

was

> > not the word" or something to this equivalent, and tell me where it com=

es

> > from? I don't know, it may be the same place where he says, "Language i=

s a

> > virus".

> >=20

> > Thanks,

> > Leo

 

WSB says somewhere in _The Adding Machine_ (I think--don't have book with

me):

"'In the beginning was the word and the word *was* God.' And what does

that make us? Ventriloquists' dummies."

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:28:11 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      The Sun Wields Mercy: Bukowski a poet.

Comments: cc: mmichael@ix.netcom.com

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A41.3.96.970929111630.15268C-100000@lucia.u.arizona.e du>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"Sarah Christians" <slc@acquiesce.org> wrote:

 

"I don't know if it's my place to jump in here, since I'm not nearly as well

versed in Burkowski as I am in Kerouac, but I think that we should leave it

up to more history and literary criticism to decide whether or not

Burkowski is/was Beat.  I mean, "Love is a Dog From Hell" just doesn't

sound beat.  It's like, along with being Beat ("and down in the world")

they considered themselves, 'beatific.'  Now, the root of all these words

still goes back to 'beautiful' and Burkowski wasn't beautiful.  His words

were harsh, albeit real and he didn't much romanticize what he saw.  When

considering the poetry of Ginsberg, for example, or even of Neal Cassady,

the words are harsh, but they are attempting to beautify what they see.  I

do not propose that Burkowski had no vision, I just assert that his style

is somewhat apart from what can be termed conventionally as 'Beat.'"

 

Sarah

 =========================================================================

 

amici beat,

i think bukowsky has pity on the humain pain, the poet writes:

 

        ---

        has this happened before? is history

        a circle that chatches itaself by the tail,

        a dream, a nightmare,

        a general's dream, a president's dream,

        a dictator's dream...

        can't we awaken?

        or are the forces of life greater than we?

        can't we awaken? must we forever,

        dear friends, die in our sleep?

        ---

or

        ---

        I keep practicing death

        and as the worms writhe

        in agony of waiting

        I might as well have another

        drink, and I am thinking

        I am there:

        and I cross my legs

        in the patio of

        some Mexico City hotel

        in 1997

        ---

 

saluti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:28:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      what ever happened to Joyce Johnson....

 

I've been wondering about this for a very long time, ever since I read

Minor Characters not too long ago.  But no one seemed to know.  Well, today

I received in the mail grad school info from Columbia University, & I was

reading the writing section of the catalog, & there was a Joyce Johnson

listed among the faculty.  I gasped, & finally found the professor bios, &

sure enough:

 

Joyce Johnson, Professor of Writing

BA, Barnard, 1955.  Author of Minor Characters (winner of the 1983 National

Book Critics Circle Award), What Lisa Knew: the Truths & Lies of the Lisa

Steinberg Case, and three novels In the Night Cafe, Bad Connections, and

Come Join the Dance.  Work has appeared in Vanity Fair, The New Yorker,

Harper's, The New York Times Magazine, New York, Mirabella, Fame, and

Harper's Bazaar.  Co-winner of the O. Henry Award for best short story of

1987.  National Endowment for the Arts Fellowship, 1992.

 

(Typed out with no permission what-so-ever from the 1997-1998 Columbia

University bulletin)

 

Diane.

 

--

I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia Plath

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:55:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Some of the Dharma cheap!

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Richard Wallner wrote:

> 

> For those of you who have not yet purchased "Some of the Dharma", you can

> now do so cheaply!  The Strand bookstore in NYC has a whole stack of

> brand new, shrinkwrapped, "Some of the Dharma" copies available for

> $22.00, more than ten bucks off the $32.95 cover price.

> 

> Just thought I'd pass that along...

> 

> RJW

 

saw used copy of it in Ichabods on Broadway in Denver for $18.00.  it is

on my next spring list so i decided to let it go for now.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:08:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Beat-L Special

 

I have copies of the hardcover first edition of Kerouac's Selected Letters -

as new in dust jacket - and signed by editor Ann Charters.

Available to Beat-L members for $15.00 plus $1.50 shipping (USA)

while supply lasts. Foreign orders: shipping is $3.00.

This book originally published at $29.95 so that's a savings of almost 50%

plus these copies are signed....

Thanks _

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

PO Box 438

Sudbury MA 01776

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:47:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Beat interviews

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Thanks everyone who helped me try and figure out who this mystery Arthur

interviewer is. I have to go back to the original tape again, and maybe I

will hear one of these names -- Arthurs Godfrey and Barlow, and Arnold

Beerbaum -- in the previously incomprehensible bit. (What was that, "You

can't learn anything you don't already know?")

 

Ruled out Arthur Knight because I called him this evening and asked him.

Very nice fellow, and he referred me to a Web site with his and his wife

Kit's work on it -- including this real gem, a profile of Burroughs called

"The Man Is Supremely Bored,"

<http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2188/wbkk.html>.

 

What this is about, anyway: this transcription is part of a book I am

writing, a sort of personal take on Beat influence in the 90s. Actually, if

anyone is interested in reading some of the stuff that's already done (I

would like the feedback), you can email me. But beware, it is quite long.

 

 

m

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:44:23 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat interviews

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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> 

> Thanks everyone who helped me try and figure out who this mystery Arthur

> interviewer is. I have to go back to the original tape again, and maybe I

> will hear one of these names -- Arthurs Godfrey and Barlow, and Arnold

> Beerbaum -- in the previously incomprehensible bit. (What was that, "You

> can't learn anything you don't already know?")

> 

 

 

Arthur Godfrey seems extremely unlikely to me, as absolutely square as

they come is my recollection from snatches of a fifties childhood.  I do

remember Arthur resufacing during the sixties as a anti-LSD voice after

his son had supposedly committed suicide during a bad acid trip.

 

J. Stauffer.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:51:31 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Sun Wields Mercy: Bukowski a poet.

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Rinaldo,

 

Thanks for the nice Bukowski poems you posted in response to Sarah's

discussion of Bukowski's place in our discussions.  Far be it from me to

embroil myself in the "Is (fill in the blank) Beat" perpetual thread

that I have been fairly snide about in the past.  Bukowski would have

hated being called a Beat yet it seems to me that history will put him

there as it will Jack Spicer.  His place, time, and themes are beat.

Certainly Ginsberg and Kerouac are romanticisers.  Bukowski certainly

tries very hard not to be, but then so does WSB.  In some ways, Hunke

sort of ways, (and he coined the word) Buk is as beat as it gets.

 

Well, I've gone and done it anyway--but we need to find a way to have

some sort of discussion on this list without somebody having to die.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:16:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat interviews

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Stauffer wrote:

 

> I do

> remember Arthur [Godfrey] resufacing during the sixties as a anti-LSD

voice after

> his son had supposedly committed suicide during a bad acid trip.

 

Aren't you confusing Godfrey with Art Linkletter?  He's the one I recall

stumping against LSD (and it was his daughter who died).

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:09:48 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Nit-picking again

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Okay.

I thought that, like in the film Naked Lunch, WSB turned to

Joan and said "I guess it's time for our William Tell

routine."  But in Joyce Johnson's Minor Characters, it's

Joan that turns to Bill.

Which is right?

Also, JJ says that Bill actually married Joyce, although

I've seen elsewhere that she was his "common-law" wife.

Which is right?

And JJ claims that Burroughs was "heir to the Burroughs

family millions" or something like that, from the adding

machine stuff, but I thought that he actually only had a

fairly low allowance.

Which is right?

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"To know, and be not knowing."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:34:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Nit-picking again

 

Tom:

 

In response to your "which is right?" inquiries:

 

There are conflicting accounts of who said what to whom during the notorious

"William Tell" episode where WSB accidentally killed Joan.  I recall from Ted

Morgan's LITERARY OUTLAW, the most complete and throroughly researched

biography to date, that it was WSB who made the statement.  His recounting of

the incident is based on a composite of interviews and sources.  This is from

memory, and I'll check it when I have a chance to confirm.

 

To the best of my knowledge from all I have read, WSB never officially

married Joan in any civil or religious ceremony, they became common law

husband & wife by sharing  households and having the ill-fated WSB Jr.

together.  WSB did officially marry a woman in Europe during the late 1930's,

strictly as a favor to help her immigrate and escape the nazis.

 

WSB was not an heir to "the Burroughs family millions", his parents sold

their shares in the Burroughs Corporation which his namesake grandfather, the

inventor of the modern adding machine, had started.  They were not poor but

far from millionaires, and they provided WSB with an allowance of $200 per

month which helped support his adventures all the way up to Paris and the

publication of NAKED LUNCH, after which his own income became enough to

modestly support him in his ever ready to move on, "travel very lightly"

lifestyle.  The myth of his being an heir to the corporate fortune is one of

the most stubborn, perpetuated by many including Kerouac.  WSB himself set

the record straight with me during my visit with him in February 1995,

telling me "Kerouac can't always be trusted" and remeniscing about going on

buying trips with his father for his parents' gift shop, Cobblestone Gardens,

which was their (and his) main source of income for many years.

 

I have enjoyed all of your posts from Britain, where WSB resided during the

1960's and early 1970's, and have meant to introduce myself.  I hope I've

helped clear these matters up for you.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:39:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sorted <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject:      Burroughs.net Suggestions?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.94.970929224211.37898O-100000@spnode02.tcs.tulane.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Greetings ppl-

 

for those of you who don't know, i've been running the burroughs.net site,

in its various incarnations, for near 3 years now. At current writing, the

site is down, and i'm busy restructuring and redesigning it. I thought i'd

take this opportunity to get some feedback/suggestions from you all here on

the list. What would you like to see on this site? what would be useful or

informative to you? I've got some good ideas that i'll reveal closer to

launch of the new site, but i'm also curious...

Also, if anyone should want to write criticism/articles on William's work

and feature them on the site, contact me, i'd love it. I get no money for

doing this site and never have, so i can't offer any for your work as i

just don't have it...

 

 

thanks,

-zach

(junky@burroughs.net)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:55:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Nit-picking again

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<snip>

And JJ claims that Burroughs was "heir to the Burroughs

family millions" or something like that, from the adding

machine stuff, but I thought that he actually only had a

fairly low allowance.

Which is right?

     <no more snip>

 

     Most bio-info I've read says he got a meager stipend from the family's

     greenhouse business and nothing more....can anyone corroborate this?

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:23:50 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat interviews

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Jym Mooney wrote:

> 

> James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> > I do

> > remember Arthur [Godfrey] resufacing during the sixties as a anti-LSD

> voice after

> > his son had supposedly committed suicide during a bad acid trip.

> 

> Aren't you confusing Godfrey with Art Linkletter?  He's the one I recall

> stumping against LSD (and it was his daughter who died).

 

Jym

 

You are right about Linklatter and the acid thing.  Godfrey still seems

to me an extremely unlikley interviewer of beats.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:33:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "p. durgin" <pdurgin@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Nit-picking again

In-Reply-To:  <0000BCFF.3427@usoc.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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        I can corroborate.  The documentary film from '83 has the man

himself saying that he "never saw a dime" from the adding machine.

 

 

                I[I]I   pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu    I[I]I

 

On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, MATT HANNAN wrote:

 

> <snip>

> And JJ claims that Burroughs was "heir to the Burroughs

> family millions" or something like that, from the adding

> machine stuff, but I thought that he actually only had a

> fairly low allowance.

> Which is right?

>      <no more snip>

> 

>      Most bio-info I've read says he got a meager stipend from the family's

>      greenhouse business and nothing more....can anyone corroborate this?

> 

>      love and lilies,

> 

>      matt

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:51:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Beat interviews

In-Reply-To:  <3431D527.2142@pacbell.net>

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On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> I do remember Arthur resufacing during the sixties as a anti-LSD voice

> after his son had supposedly committed suicide during a bad acid trip.

 

Kind of like Art Linkletter's daughter jumping out a window? AL then became

an anti-LSD evangelist ("LSD will make you think you can fly!") but later

admitted that her suicide didn't have anything to do with LSD & he was

looking for something to blame it on...

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:21:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs.net Suggestions?

In-Reply-To:  <v03102808b057d6c08643@[206.190.9.125]>

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Zach--

 

> for those of you who don't know, i've been running the burroughs.net site,

> in its various incarnations, for near 3 years now. At current writing, the

> site is down, and i'm busy restructuring and redesigning it. I thought i'd

> take this opportunity to get some feedback/suggestions from you all here on

> the list. What would you like to see on this site? what would be useful or

> informative to you? I've got some good ideas that i'll reveal closer to

> launch of the new site, but i'm also curious...

 

I enjoyed your site, especially the cutup machine. The analysis of _Naked

Lunch_ was also valuable -- more of this kind of thing would be welcome. So

the texts and their subsequent analysis, as well as technical

implementations of various WSB literary devices. That would greatly interest

me. Are you running your server on a Unix box? I think a simple cgi front

end to the "an" program, coupled with a large user dictionary, would be a

very cool addition to you cutup machine.

 

You might also want to consider hooking up with Izzy (attached post below).

This is a hardcore group of Johnsons, mainly in Europe, who are interested

in serious study of WSB's literary techniques, theories and works, and

implementing these ideas in new ways -- as you can see from this post the

idea of an "Interzone Academy" has even been considered. When I first read

this I immediately thought of your site, which had so much fine work on it

and was very well designed. burroughs.net as some kind of central cyberian

resource zone for all of these studies is what comes to mind.

 

just my thoughts,

 

m

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

 

 

---

 

From: baudron@interpc.fr (BAUDRON Isabelle)

To: "'Isabelle Baudron'" <baudron@interpc;fr;;;;;;;>

Subject: New report

Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:28:22 +-200

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Status: RO

X-Status:

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                                                      September 28 th 1997

 

 

 

 

Dear friends,

 

One month and a half after the beginning of

this adventure,

around 120 people asked for being kept in touch or

participating.  I also send this report to 20 people,

who did not keep in touch after getting the machine, in

case they would be interested

in the following, as a test : but in case anybody does not

want to be involved anymore, please tell me, and I shall

take you our of the address book.

 

>From all the propositions and subjects of interests, we

have several groups :

 

 

1. WEB SITE:

 

Most of people think we need a web site to publish our

texts, the news concerning the activities of the group,

etc. So do I. Some people have already begun to work at it.

You can see the first results at :

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/gary.leeming/index.htm

 

linked with

http://www.netcom.com/~foe4foe  (click to drop) and listen

to their house freaks:

circa 1944(click to squeak)

 

   Gary is taking the site in charge. You can contact

him at <gary.leeming@ukonline.co.uk>

 

 

We can also use the site to make a magazine, every 3 month

for instance. Some people are volunteers for working in it.

 

 For those who are not used to make web pages, as I was 3

days ago, it is quite simple to make with the computer

itself which contains the elements to make it : it took me

an afternoon using the help included in the computer to

learn to make it.

 

 

2. MUSICIANS AND PERFORMERS:

 

Tom Matthews proposed to take in charge this group, to

gather archives, recordings,

audio and video-tapes, etc., and to find ways to sell,

exchange, etc., them. You can join him at:

 

< tmathews@MicroAge-tb.com>

 

Tom proposes to print tee shirts and sell them.

 

 

3. DREAMACHINE:

 

Tom is also working on a computer-based version of the

dreamachine (using glasses and a cable attached to a

computer's printer port and has also home built sound

manipulation  hardwares.

 

Some other people have been doing other experiments and

devices to bring alpha state.  We might gather all these

informations, plus the ones we already  got, on a web site.

 

 

 4.  POETS, WRITERS :

 

Some people have begun to send texts to include in the book

"Le temps des Naguals"  I have already written, and which

contains interviews and texts of and about Burroughs and

Gysin. I have recorded all the writings sent in a second

part.

 

For those who would like to see their texts published in

the site, I can make a web page, but you can also make it,

which would be more personal, so every text could be as

well an art work made by its author. What do you think?

 

 

5. CONTACTS:

 

Some people would like to be in touch and have exchanges

with other members.

 

For establishing contacts, we have different possibilities:

 

a)  I can make an address book with the names, E-mails

addresses, and main subjects of interest of people who want

to have contacts: for instance :

 

Isabelle Baudron - baudron@interpc.fr - Dreams third mind,

web-site, and exchanges.

 

So everyone wanting to be in the address book can sends me

this, and I include it in a special address book that I

shall send by E-mail to each sender, so it will remain

limited to its members, to preserve privacy.

 

 

        b) We can have a chat-room on ICQ for direct contacts. As

there are members in US, most of countries of Europe and

Australia, it should be possible to get in touch with

someone at any time of day and night. I got a page there

UIN #3146693, where you can also join me. But I have no

experience of chat room, so if you want to contact me

through it, do not

be astonished if it takes some times.

 

        c) We can make a Newsletter, and spread it by E-mail.

 

        d) We can use the web site for exchanges and contacts.

 

        e) Some people have been making groups of E-mail

exchanges. Some who wrote in the Memorial have also

established their own contacts and groups. In case you

think the result of your exchanges might be valuable for

others and would like to see them published, we can also

include them in the book, with or without your coordinates,

and after you have checked their content.

 

 

6. SCIENTIFIC AND MEDICAL RESEARCH:

 

Some people are interested in research in precise domains:

apomorphine, new treatments for quieting anxious people,

for cancer, addiction, etc.

 

I am a psychiatric nurse, having stopped working after 15

years in a public hospital. I am interested in making

medical research in the domains of expansion of conscience,

treatments of addiction (I have the protocol of apomorphine

cure written by Ian Somerville if you want), cancers, any

treatment allowing to strengthen the defenses of organism,

and a new approach of death.

 

I propose we use the opportunity of our group to gather

informations in those domains, or others you might have in

mind, and make a group of research with doctors, nurses and

therapists of the group, plus all the people interested. I

do not intend to work in a hospital anymore, but if my

experience can be of any use in the context of this group,

it is at your disposal.

 

 

7. BURROUGHSIAN CONCEPTS AND DOMAINS OF RESEARCH:

 

Some would like to work on specific themes as third-mind,

evil spirit, control, magic, sex, dreams, synchronicities,

etc.

Some have begun exchanges on those domains.

 

Several people have been sending dreams, some write them

down and would be interested in a group of research about

it.  I have been noting them since 1981 and am also

interesting in a common work and exchanges.

 

Several people have been making dreams about Burroughs. It

might be interesting to gather them and see what comes out

of it, and what they can teach us on Burroughs influence on

this part of our life. This might be included in the book

or in the magazine as well.

 

 

Here it does not seem very realistic to make groups by

subjects, because they are all bound, and we generally jump

from one to the other.

 

But it seems very valuable to share our respective

experiments about them, as it

allows to go further, and to realise that

experience of the others often confirms and

completes ours, which is quite reassuring

in these areas.

 

 

8. THE ACADEMY:

 

The idea of making an Academy in a castle, big house, etc.,

is part of the dreams of quite a lot of people. But it

implies practical problems due to a static place which may

not be adapted to our Cyber experiment, and require

spending money to go to the place, etc.

 

To me the main interest for such a place would  be, besides

the Academy which can also be settled on the web, to have a

place where we could meet, and which could be a temporary

shelter for the members of the group who need it, sort of

an Interzone we can come to for making a break out of the

daily context.

We could also use it to make applied research, "in vivo",

which is

not possible in Cyber-space.

 

Anyway for the moment this is not the most urgent thing. We

can begin to use the tools we already got at our disposal.

 

In case an opportunity comes, then I propose we study it

together. But spending time and energy in looking for it

now does not seem adapted for the moment

 

 

9. THE NAME OF OUR GROUP :

Here are the first propositions:

- Tarzan Society

- Ah Pook Academy

- Junkshakes

- The People's Republic of Interzone

- Grey Johnson or Endless Johnson Family or Dead Johnsons

Incorporated

- Invisible Corp

- Beat Hotel

- Room 23

- Third Mind Corporation

- Interzone

- Nova Express

- El Hombre Invisible

 

 

10.  LANGUAGES:

 

For the moment we cover the following languages: English,

French, Spanish, German, Dutch, Norwegian, Slovak,

Sweedish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek, Chinese, Japanese.

 

We might use all this knowledge for translations of our

writings, or Burroughs' and Gysin's books, which have not

been translated in some languages. We can make translation

groups, which allows getting to a quick and good result.

 

Some people from different countries who have a personal

web site  could make pages about the group in their

language, link them together, and to our site.

 

 

 

 So this is a set of opportunities we got altogether,

enough to begin to work for the moment.

 

I hope you enjoy it.

 

Thanks again for your concern, propositions and

participation.

 

Love to all.

 

Izzy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        "Introduce one unforeseen and therefore unforeseeable

factor and the whole

structure collapses like a house of cards."

                        W.S. Burroughs

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

2 of you sent messages to spread. Here they are :

 

 

>something to think about.......

> 

>--------------

>America's Most Wanted did a profile on Saturday 7/26/97 of

Andrew

Cunnanan.

> You probably know Cunnanan as the serial murderer who

killed Gianni Versace

>and a number of gay men while posing as a male prostitute

in New York City.

> AMW had the following to say:

> 

>   "We were concerned because he crossed the line from

killing gay people. . .to killing innocent bystanders."

>              -- John Walsh, host of America's Most Wanted

 7/26/97

> 

>Apparently America's Most Wanted feels it is forgivable to

kill homosexuals, as long as one doesn't kill any

"innocent" people as well.

 They need to hear

>our thoughts.  Please send your comments and all feedback

to America's Most Wanted at the following address:

> 

>   feedback@amw.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

please forward:

 

Protest the destruction of Ruigoord - send faxes, e-mails

and letters of protest to the Amsterdam harbour company and

the City of

Amsterdam.

 

  RUIGOORD

   is situated in west of The Netherlands near the

Northsea, just over the  border of Amsterdam.

   As the city of Amsterdam was expanding with the the

economic boom of the

   sixties, it began to buy huge stretches of land in

neighbouring

   communities to turn them in industrial areas and suburbs

-including the  tiny former island of Ruigoord, some 8

miles West of the

city.

   On this island, in the middle of a fertile, one century

old polder (once  part of a vast inland sea), there was a

village of some

600 people, with  a church, a school and several shops.

 

   In the early seventies many inhabitants were moved to

modern suburbs and  their houses knocked down. At the same

time the meadows

and fields  around were raised three to six meters by

spouting sea,

sand on them. A  war could hardly have been more

destructive to the

landscape. However,  the expected economic expansion came

to a halt and the

huge stretches of  land around Ruigoord were slowly turning

into a

wilderness.

 

   When some artists discoverd the village, only a few

houses and  the church were left.

   Some villagers had refused to leave and were happy to

get reinforcement.

   After a short physical and a much longer political

struggle, the remains of the village were left in peace,

for the time being.

Empty houses were  taken by adventurous artists, who moved

in from the

surrounding cities.

   The church became a festival hall and the native

families slowly  adjusted themselves to the new bohemian

population. All

this happened  some 25 years ago.

 

   This village has been under fire since then. In the

beginning of  the 70ties Amsterdam thought it needed a new

harbour,

the  Afrikahaven, and evicted the small village; a group of

artists and  hippies squatted the village and is living

there since.

Several  times procedures were started to start digging for

the

harbour but  at the moment it really gets started. In spite

of

critics from the  population, asking for a referendum (they

did not get

it), the  Amsterdam government goes on with this claiming

it will

give lots of jobs and help the Amsterdam economy. This is

disputable.

Ruigoord  and surrounding became a lively community for

people and

nature,

   quite some rare animals and plants are living around the

hills and  meadows of the village. The Afrikahaven will

pose a

severe threat to the environment.

 

   there are strong indications that the objective is to

dump contaminated heavily soil under the new harbour sites.

 

   You can actually visit the action camp. A new group,

calling themselves

       GroenFront (a dutch division of radical EarthFirst!)

promise

       spectacular peaceful actions.

 

   Email address of GroenFront Ruigoord:

       ruigoord@hotmail.com

 

   Please note: The action camp is not organised by the

existing Ruigoord

       Community.

 

   The Ruigoord community has a nice website (in dutch)

describing the  history, nature and political situation.

Visit:

www.ruigoord.com

       (includes photos). Email address:

ruigoord@euronet.nl

 

   Other website with information about Ruigoord:

   http://www.globalsurprise.nl/bgruigoord.html

 

   A mailinglist has been set up about Ruigoord, you can

subscribe at

   http://www.oudenaarden.nl/lists/ruigoord.html

                  GroenFront! occupies nature area

   Yesterday, GroenFront! sat up camp in the nature area

near Ruigoord  village. Demonstrators wish to impede

construction of

the

   Africahaven. Municipal excavation works are in progress

at the site

   for the new harbour.

 

   (Source: Nieuws van de Dag, 5 August 1997)

 

Please direct protest letters, faxes and e-mails to:

 

   Port Management of Amsterdam

   De Ruyterkade 7

   Postbus 19406

   1000 GK AMSTERDAM

   The Netherlands

   Tel. +31 20 5238600

   Fax. +31 20 6209821

   info@portofamsterdam.com

 

and/or to:

 

   City of Amsterdam

   City Hall

   Amstel 1

   1011 PN Amsterdam

   Telephone +31 20 552 9111

   Text-Telephone +31 20 620 9279

   Facsimile +31 20 552 3426

   P.O. Box 202

   1000 AE Amsterdam

   E-mail: vlc@veb.amsterdam.nl

   or use the form at http://www.amsterdam.nl/email.html

 

Reversal Action - Sunday 24th August:

   Come with many people, bring shovels and drums!

 

Take bus 82 (direction IJmuiden) from Amsterdam Sloterdijk

to busstop Ruigoord. Meet at the church at 14.00.

 

 

 

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:07:05 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Kerouac und Heidegger.

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A41.3.96.970929111630.15268C-100000@lucia.u.arizona.e du>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

dear friends,

 

in his latest writing "after me the deluge" was 1969 (?)

Jack Kerouac affirmed that Heidegger's thought is a gem.

 

"Why does exist the things instead of nothing?" and

Jack

Keroauc

        thought about the existence an admiring look at

                Martin Heidegger.

 

        which God does the atheist beg?

 

        God names are always hopeless

 

        what's the matter?

 

        a stork!        a stork!

 

        a knot of people

        nose around     the sky!

 

        a stork flew in the autumn sky

 

---

Rinaldo.

1th oct 97

 

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:50:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      hello

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Haven't received any mail since yesterday and was wondering if its just

me.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:03:15 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: hello

 

Alex, haven't gotten any Beat-l stuff since yesterday either.  guess

everyone's busy....

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:56:29 +0900

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         moriyama kazufumi =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCPzk7MxsoQg==?=

              <moriyama@KT.RIM.OR.JP>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

 

singoff BEAT-L

 

 

 $B?9;3 (B

moriyama kazufumi (Tokyo, Japan) $B!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (B

E-mail: moriyama@kt.rim.or.jp

http://www.kt.rim.or.jp/~moriyama/

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:28:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      DHARMA beat!!!

 

I just got my Fall 1997 issue of DHARMA beat in the mail and want to tell all

of you who are NOT so fortunate that you're missing something great (and I'm

not just saying that because Attila published something by me in there... hee

hee hee).

 

This issue is a broad overview of On The Road from a variety of perspectives.

It's both thoughtful and comprehensive, and also very cool.

 

If you don't subscribe (and why the hell don't you? what's wrong with you?

don't you support The Arts?), you can do so by emailing your request to

Attilla Gyenis at Kerouaczin@AOL.com. As a former magazine and newspaper

publisher who blazed the trail for two desirable markets in my old community,

only to fold and go into debt for lack of commercial support, I speak from

the heart when I say DON'T WAIT to subscribe to DHARMA beat.

 

And no, I don't get a piece of the action. In fact, I am a former slacker who

must have been told about DHARMA beat by at least half-a-dozen people before

I finally subscribed. I subsequently bought all the back issues, too, so I

could have an entire collection.

 

By the way, the piece I wrote for this issue is about Beat websites. I'd

created a lengthy list of these for inclusion, but there was not enough room

in the mag. If anyone wants a copy of my listing of URLs of Beat sites, write

me here, or maybe I'll just post them to the list. There are a bunch of good

ones, and some are really obscure and strange.

 

But forget about that for right now. Get your copy of DHARMA beat while you

still can. Support your local starving Hungarian artist!

 

diane de rooy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:59:04 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: DHARMA beat!!!

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:28:15 -0400 from <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

 

I'm sure you can also pick up Dharma Beat at the book fair in Lowell on Saturda

y.  Hope to see some of you wearing your beat-l shirts.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:58:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: <no subject>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

moriyama@kt.rim.or.jp wrote:

 

>singoff BEAT-L

 

     Ok, here goes:

 

 

     Hello BEAT-L my old friend

     I've come to talk with you again

     about Jack's vision softly creeping

     that came to him while he was typing

     and the vision...that was planted in my brain

     still remains

     within his books...of visions

 

     'neath the halo of my monitor-light

     I turn my collar to the spam and hack

     and my eyes are stamped

     by the flash of a RACEy poem

     that fits Beat meter

     and harkens the sound...of YouGotMail

 

     and in the Naked light (Lunch) I saw

     277 people, maybe more

     they were typing without speaking

     they were reading without listening

     they were replying to messages

     that voices never hear.........

 

     Oh......signoff.....I thought you said "Sing Of"......sorry.

 

     love and lilies (and apologies to Paul and Art),

 

     matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:57:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: DHARMA beat!!!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I've never heard of DHARMA beat - what is it all about?  Buddhism and the

Beat Generation?  How much does  it cost?

 

Jon

 

At 03:28 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I just got my Fall 1997 issue of DHARMA beat in the mail and want to tell all

>of you who are NOT so fortunate that you're missing something great (and I'm

>not just saying that because Attila published something by me in there... hee

>hee hee).

> 

>This issue is a broad overview of On The Road from a variety of perspectives.

>It's both thoughtful and comprehensive, and also very cool.

> 

>If you don't subscribe (and why the hell don't you? what's wrong with you?

>don't you support The Arts?), you can do so by emailing your request to

>Attilla Gyenis at Kerouaczin@AOL.com. As a former magazine and newspaper

>publisher who blazed the trail for two desirable markets in my old community,

>only to fold and go into debt for lack of commercial support, I speak from

>the heart when I say DON'T WAIT to subscribe to DHARMA beat.

> 

>And no, I don't get a piece of the action. In fact, I am a former slacker who

>must have been told about DHARMA beat by at least half-a-dozen people before

>I finally subscribed. I subsequently bought all the back issues, too, so I

>could have an entire collection.

> 

>By the way, the piece I wrote for this issue is about Beat websites. I'd

>created a lengthy list of these for inclusion, but there was not enough room

>in the mag. If anyone wants a copy of my listing of URLs of Beat sites, write

>me here, or maybe I'll just post them to the list. There are a bunch of good

>ones, and some are really obscure and strange.

> 

>But forget about that for right now. Get your copy of DHARMA beat while you

>still can. Support your local starving Hungarian artist!

> 

>diane de rooy

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:11:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: DHARMA beat!!!

 

 Hello Diane -

----

snip, snip

 

>If anyone wants a copy of my listing of URLs of Beat sites, write

>me here, or maybe I'll just post them to the list.

 

Please.

 

>There are a bunch of good

>ones, and some are really obscure and strange.

> 

>But forget about that for right now.

 

O.K. if that's what you ask me to do, but not for long,  o.k? Thanks for

reminding me about the other point also.

 

leon

 

 Get your copy of DHARMA beat while you

>still can. Support your local starving Hungarian artist!

> 

>diane de rooy

>.-

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:25:19 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: DHARMA beat!!!

 

by all means Diane-  send that url list!

I think i've seen most of the bigger sites- but who knows what treasure

lies in them thar hills of the internet!

also- (forgive me if this has recently been a topic- I've been away from

the list for several months) i'm trying to find some of the music that

accompanied Kerouac on his spoken word recordings. I'd appreciate anyones

input on the matter, and suggestions for which one's I HAVE to get.

Thanks!

Bob

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:56:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: <no subject>

 

Reply to message from MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG of Thu, 02 Oct

> 

 

 

I was waving my lighter in the air while reading....

:)

 

Diane. (H)

 

>moriyama@kt.rim.or.jp wrote:

> 

>>singoff BEAT-L

> 

>     Ok, here goes:

> 

> 

>     Hello BEAT-L my old friend

>     I've come to talk with you again

>     about Jack's vision softly creeping

>     that came to him while he was typing

>     and the vision...that was planted in my brain

>     still remains

>     within his books...of visions

> 

>     'neath the halo of my monitor-light

>     I turn my collar to the spam and hack

>     and my eyes are stamped

>     by the flash of a RACEy poem

>     that fits Beat meter

>     and harkens the sound...of YouGotMail

> 

>     and in the Naked light (Lunch) I saw

>     277 people, maybe more

>     they were typing without speaking

>     they were reading without listening

>     they were replying to messages

>     that voices never hear.........

> 

>     Oh......signoff.....I thought you said "Sing Of"......sorry.

> 

>     love and lilies (and apologies to Paul and Art),

> 

>     matt

> 

> 

 

--

I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia Plath

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:56:11 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Campo Ai Frari, Venezia.

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A41.3.96.970929111630.15268C-100000@lucia.u.arizona.e du>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        GOD BLESS

        THE CHEER

        FUL GIVER

        I HAVE NO

        OTHER INC

        OME I WIS

        H YOU   GOO

        D LUCK TH

        ANK YOU

 

        I need money

        to be

        an artist

 

        (not

                in

                        conjunction

                                with

                                la biennale arte)

 

        thursday morning fog

                        the fox

                                knows many things

        she (the fox) told

 

                WATER FOR DOGS!

 

        i

                PHONED HIM

                last night

 

        but he (the dog) was

                DRUNK

        CLUMSY  DOG!

 

        i need money

                i need money

        to be but he was drunk.

 

 

---

Rinaldo

2th oct 97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:03:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Euhyun Jennifer Chun <ejc@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: DHARMA beat!!!

In-Reply-To:  <971002152609_406742506@emout18.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Diane De Rooy wrote:

 

> By the way, the piece I wrote for this issue is about Beat websites. I'd

> created a lengthy list of these for inclusion, but there was not enough room

> in the mag. If anyone wants a copy of my listing of URLs of Beat sites, write

> me here, or maybe I'll just post them to the list. There are a bunch of good

> ones, and some are really obscure and strange.

> 

diane. i'd love to see your complete list. if it wouldn't be too much of a

bother, would you post them to the list?? please... :)

 

e. jennifer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:49:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: DHARMA beat!!!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:25 PM 10/2/97 EDT, you wrote:

>by all means Diane-  send that url list!

>I think i've seen most of the bigger sites- but who knows what treasure

>lies in them thar hills of the internet!

>also- (forgive me if this has recently been a topic- I've been away from

>the list for several months) i'm trying to find some of the music that

>accompanied Kerouac on his spoken word recordings. I'd appreciate anyones

>input on the matter, and suggestions for which one's I HAVE to get.

>Thanks!

>Bob

> 

Jk made three albums in the late 50s that I have - they come in a box set

put out by Rhino/World Beat.  The first one has JK accompanied by Steve

Allen.  the second has Al Cohn and Zoot Sims.  The third has no

accompaniement.  These are the only albums I knew of.  If anyone else knows

of any more - please post them to the list.

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:34:20 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: DHARMA beat!!!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:49 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:

>At 04:25 PM 10/2/97 EDT, you wrote:

>>by all means Diane-  send that url list!

>>I think i've seen most of the bigger sites- but who knows what treasure

>>lies in them thar hills of the internet!

>>also- (forgive me if this has recently been a topic- I've been away from

>>the list for several months) i'm trying to find some of the music that

>>accompanied Kerouac on his spoken word recordings. I'd appreciate anyones

>>input on the matter, and suggestions for which one's I HAVE to get.

>>Thanks!

>>Bob

>> 

>Jk made three albums in the late 50s that I have - they come in a box set

>put out by Rhino/World Beat.  The first one has JK accompanied by Steve

>Allen.  the second has Al Cohn and Zoot Sims.  The third has no

>accompaniement.  These are the only albums I knew of.  If anyone else knows

>of any more - please post them to the list.

> 

>Jon

> 

 

John's info was good.  I'd add that if you are looking for the music that

accompanies the words you won't find it except with the words.

 

The Blues and Haikus was a session.  The music was original.  In Blues and

Haikus Kerouac would say a haiku and the musicians would amswer with a riff.

I don't think you're going to find the music anywhere else but on these

records.  Same with Steve Allen.  I think it was somewhat spontaneous.

 

I have seen that www.amazon.com the Amazon internet bookstore sells the 3 CD

(or 4 cassette) collection.  I think it's about 40 bucks.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:24:50 -0500

Reply-To:     EASTWIND@erols.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         PATRICK <EASTWIND@EROLS.COM>

Organization: EASTWIND PUBLISHING

Subject:      Re: DHARMA beat!!!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Euhyun Jennifer Chun wrote:

> 

> On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Diane De Rooy wrote:

> 

> > By the way, the piece I wrote for this issue is about Beat websites. I'd

> > created a lengthy list of these for inclusion, but there was not enough room

> > in the mag. If anyone wants a copy of my listing of URLs of Beat sites,

 write

> > me here, or maybe I'll just post them to the list. There are a bunch of good

> > ones, and some are really obscure and strange.

> >

> diane. i'd love to see your complete list. if it wouldn't be too much of a

> bother, would you post them to the list?? please... :)

> 

> e. jennifer

Yes send me the list...

eastwind@erols.com

thanking u now.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:47:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      World Wide Web of Beats, etc.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

To Beat-L websurfers:

 

Here's the list of URLs I assembled for the DHARMA beat story. It's far f=

rom

complete, and I didn't intend to "rate" them. If you know of others I mis=

sed,

please feel free to send them to me for my edification.

 

Happy browsing...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

There are a few glaring omissions on this list: Ryko Records for Kicks/et=

c,

Mind in Motion ROMnibus, Levi's tribute site to AG from the beatlist and

elsewhere, the Blacklisted Journalist and others I can't remember right n=

ow.

My links are misplaced or something... just ran out of gas making them.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

COMPASS POINTS ON THE cyberROAD

"Route 66 can be read in two directions. First stop on this page : Jack

Kerouac and the 'Beat Generation', a coast to coast trip down the legenda=

ry

highway, in the footsteps of the beatniks. A page of history. Second stop=

 :

Jack Kerouac and the 'Byte Generation', where we take a virtual stroll,

seeking memories of Route 66 in the Web universe. Or when the mouse repla=

ces

the car... " --From the intro to  "Jack Kerouac and the "Beat Generation"

home page

EVENTS

LCKerouac Festival Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://members.aol.com/lckerouac/festival.htm">http://members.=

aol.com

/lckerouac/festival.htm</A>

SITES WITH LINKS

Literary Kicks =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.charm.net/%7Ebrooklyn/LitKicks.html">http://www.cha=

rm.net/

%7Ebrooklyn/LitKicks.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The Unofficial WSB website =3D

<A HREF=3D"http://www.peg.apc.org/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html">http://www.peg=

.apc.or

g/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The Wild Bohemian Home Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.halcyon.com/colinp/bohemian.htm">http://www.halcyon=

.com/co

linp/bohemian.htm</A>

"Included here are links to pages about Hippies, the Beat Generation, the

Grateful Dead and other Bohemian bands, outlaw bikers (including the Hell=

s

Angels), all the way back to... Diogenes and the Cynics. --Colin Pringle

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Ignition - On the Road in CyberSpace =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.the-wire.com/newjon/what.html">http://www.the-wire.=

com/new

jon/what.html</A>

"I=92m Jon Newton, a writer living in Toronto, Canada. CyberSpace ...is a=

 Black

Hole to most people who aren=92t online so why not write a kind of CyberS=

pace

On the Road, after Jack Kerouac?"

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Cassady's Home Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/5160">http://www.geocities.com/S=

oHo/516

0</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The William S. Burroughs Files =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.hyperreal.com/wsb/">http://www.hyperreal.com/wsb/</=

A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

burroughs =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.peg.apc.org/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html">http://www.peg=

.apc.or

g/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

BohemianInk =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.levity.com/corduroy/index.htm">http://www.levity.co=

m/cordu

roy/index.htm</A>=20

Special mention goes to this site for its incredible focus on the art it

promotes, rather than the personalities who created it.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Jack Kerouac and the "Beat Generation" =3D

<A HREF=3D"http://www.virgin.fr/virgin/html/us/nostalgia/route66/beat_gen=

eration

.html">http://www.virgin.fr/virgin/html/us/nostalgia/route66/beat_generat=

ion.h

tml</A>

Weird, fascinating, filled with inaccuracies, but worth visiting nonethel=

ess,

if only to experience a French point of view on Jean Louis Kirouac.

PUBLISHERS

BookZen =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.bookzen.com">http://www.bookzen.com</A>

WRITING/EDUCATION

Kerouac, Spontaneous Prose =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/kerouac-spontaneous.=

html">h

ttp://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/kerouac-spontaneous.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

English 320W-02: The Beat Generation =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/kerouac-spontaneous.=

html">h

ttp://www.mnsfld.edu/~julrich/beatweb.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The Writer's Gallery =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html">http=

://www.

onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Ball's Beat Generation =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.vmi.edu/%7Eenglish/beats.html">http://www.vmi.edu/%=

7Eengli

sh/beats.html</A>

Perhaps the most unlikely source for Beat links: Home page features Virgi=

nia

Military Institute cadets in uniform. "Intended Primarily for Students of=

 EN

365 This page contains links to multifaceted webs devoted to Kerouac,

Ginsberg, Burroughs, and other major figures of the Beat Generation."

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

<A HREF=3D"http://www.mnsfld.edu/~julrich/beatweb.html">http://www.mnsfld=

.edu/~j

ulrich/beatweb.html</A>

Welcome to the Internet Resources Page for English 320W-02: The Beat

Generation

Mansfield University of Pennsylvania=20

CHAT

beat generation private chatroom =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html">aol:=

//2719:

2-2-beat%20generation</A>

TRIBUTES

Charles Plymell =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html">http://www.buchenroth=

.com/cp

lymell.html</A>

FANTASY

1996 Dharma Beats Roster =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.clark.net/pub/cosmic/96dbr.html">http://www.clark.n=

et/pub/

cosmic/96dbr.html</A>

"Kerouac managing veterans like Ginsberg and Huncke, along with rookies l=

ike

Kurt Cobain."=20

MAGAZINES

Steve Silberman's How Beat was born =3D

<A HREF=3D"http://ezone.org/ez/e2/articles/digaman.html">http://ezone.org=

/ez/e2/

articles/digaman.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

Shambhala Sun Home Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.shambhalasun.com/">http://www.shambhalasun.com/</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

Allen Ginsberg =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.talk.com/talk/club/special/transcripts/96-12-16-gin=

sberg.h

tml">http://www.talk.com/talk/club/special/transcripts/96-12-16-ginsberg.=

html<

/A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

WIRED magazine =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://wwww.wired.com/wired/">http://wwww.wired.com/wired/</A>

BOOKSTORES

1 800 KEROUAC - Beat Generation Catalog =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.kerouac.com/">http://www.kerouac.com/</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

Jack Kerouac at the Iliad =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://host.interloc.com/%7Eiliadbks/kerouac.html">http://host=

.interl

oc.com/%7Eiliadbks/kerouac.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

About Allen Ginsberg =3D Open Book Systems

<A HREF=3D"http://www.obs-europa.de/obs/english/books/ginsberg/ata.htm">h=

ttp://w

ww.obs-europa.de/obs/english/books/ginsberg/ata.htm</A>

SOUNDS

Kerouac Speaks =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html">=

http://

www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html</A>

NEWSGROUPS

<A HREF=3D"Beat-L@listserv.cuny.edu">Beat-L@listserv.cuny.edu</A>

alt.books.beatgeneration =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"aol://5863:126/alt.books.beatgeneration">aol://5863:126/alt.bo=

oks.bea

tgeneration</A>

MUSIC/MULTIMEDIA

Rhino Records - Catalog - Kerouac, Jack =3D <A HREF=3D"http://rhino.com/s=

earch/art

info.cfm?name=3DKEROUAC,+JACK">http://rhino.com/search/artinfo.cfm?name=3D=

KEROUAC,

+JACK</A>

VERVE Celebrates Charlie Parker =3D <A HREF=3D"http://www.jazzonln.com/JA=

ZZ/LABELS

/VERVE2/birdhome.htm">http://www.jazzonln.com/JAZZ/LABELS/VERVE2/birdhome=

.htm<

/A>

Sean Singer's Jazz Literature Page  =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/%7Essinger/">http://ezinfo.ucs.i=

ndiana.

edu/%7Essinger/</A>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:22:49 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      the early Bukowski.

Comments: cc: morpheous@boone.net

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A41.3.96.970929111630.15268C-100000@lucia.u.arizona.e du>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Return-Path: <morpheous@boone.net>

From: "Matthew Murray" <morpheous@boone.net>

To: "Rinaldo Rasa" <rasa@gpnet.it>

Subject: Re: the early Bukowski.

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:39:53 -0400

 

Matthew Murray writes:

The word "beat" as coined by Jack can be looked at not so much as a time or

situation dependent literary genre, but an artistic and spiritual attitude.

"Beat" aka cashed, worn out, tired, not so much the hipster thing.  If

Charles Bukowski was not "beat" then I don't know who is, but Bukowski

himself sneered at being classified with those folks.  He was indifferent

when he met Bill Burroughs, and always sighed when young hipsters would tell

him how much they dug his "shit,man" within the context of beat authoring.

The bottom line is that these folks were both damn good writers and they

both strained the hell out of their livers.

 

-*-

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 01:22:50 -0500

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      THE BLUES NEVER DIE

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I'm back in business.

 

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 02:34:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      DHARMA beat

Comments: cc: MessrHat@aol.com

 

DHARMA beat is a newszine (newsletter) that is published twice a year about

Kerouac's life and writing. Issue 9 (Fall 1997) was just published. Now in

its fifth year, we publish information of interest about Kerouac events and

happenings around the world. The most recent issue has articles about Kerouac

in Orlando, an article about the recent discovery of a On The Road recording

by Jack (the only professional recording of Jack reading On the Road?) that

will be released on Geffen records in the sometime future, and a listing a

Kerouac and beat related stuff and publications.

 

DHARMA beat is published twice a year, spring and fall. Subscriptions are

$7.00 per year (two issues, make checks payable to DHARMA beat or cash), $10

to Canada and overseas (payable in US dollars). Sample copies are available

for $3.00. Mail to DHARMA beat, PO BOX 1753, Lowell MA, 01853-1753. Since I

only get the mail sporadically, it may be a little while before you get your

request mailed. For more information e mail to KEROUACZIN@AOL.COM and there

is a homepage that has a link to a Kerouac calender that I hopefully will

keep updated at <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/dharmabeat.html">ht

tp://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/dharmabeat.html</A>

 

 

Recent Kerouac events:

 

Ongoing:

 

Kerouac - A Musical based on the life of Jack Kerouac: Theatre East, 211 East

60th Street, New York, NY, (212) 838-8528. A musical about the life of

Kerouac offered in a cabaret setting. Tickets are $30,  includes two drinks.

 

Kerouac: The Essence of Jack, A jazz play by Vincent Balestri - Velvet Elvis

Arts Lounge Theatre, 107 Occidental, Seattle, (206) 624-8477 ($17-20). A

one-person show, backed with a saxophonist or trio, depending on the day, is

a two part play that starts off with Balestri (Kerouac) saying that he will

take you through the publication of On the Road, "Then we'll have an

intermission, and when we come back, you can ask me some questions and then I

die." (may close soon so call)

 

Other Kerouac Stuff

 

September 24 Wednesday

St. Marks Poetry Project

Celebration of Kerouac's On the Road Marathon Reading

 

September 17- 27, 1997

"Beat Generation" At Meer dan Woorden "More Than Words" Festival In Holland

 

October 2 - 5

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac

It is going on the weekend, a great time to see the town, you can see the

city, New York that is, later.

 

October 20 Monday

Jack Kerouac Reading

Penny Lane, 18th & Pearl, Boulder, CO, call (303) 444-7111 to confirm

 

October 25 Saturday 8pm.

"Visions of Kerouac: The Great Rememberer", at Willits Playhouse at

(707)459-2281 or Carlords Poetry at (707)459-6759

 

 

 

We are always looking for articles and information about Kerouac or any

Kerouac related event you may have (for example if you have a Kerouac Poetry

reading celebrating his birth or passing) or anything related. Our main

purpose is to let people know about what's going on.  If you have a story,

information, or item of interest to Kerouac readers please let us know. We

need the support of the Kerouac community to keep others aware of Kerouac

events. DHARMA beat will do its best to spread the word.

 

thanks and enjoy, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:14:53 -0700

Reply-To:     balkose@egenet.com.tr

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Murat Balkose <balkose@EGENET.COM.TR>

Subject:      Hello !

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hello,

 

 As i just started to subscribe BEAT-L, and i wonder the

multinationality of this list.

 I subscribed it before but i did't read any letters from Turkey.Anyone

speaking Turkish  please contact with me.

 

i'd introduce myself. i am student and interested reading beat

literature.i am not an intellectual and don't really read too much

books.

 

 Anyone wondering the last book published in Turkish as a beat

literature  is "The Cat Inside-W.S Burroughs"August 1997.(i guess thats

the third book of Burrougs published in Turkish.)

 

 If i unterstood true, some people are talking about "if Bukowski is a

Beat"....

 BUKOWSKI is not a BEAT.BUKOWSKI IS GOD.(it is my idea)

 

 Anyway BYE,it is always nice to listen you.

 

 Murat

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:12:01 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      bukowski as beat

 

ahhh, the old question of is bukowski beat.

here's my humble opinion.

 

i think writers can have many "beat" characteristics. i bet if we put all

275 heads together on this list, we can name at least 25 writers who fit

the description of "beat".

FOR INSTANCE.... i've heard many  people around the beat lit circle refer

to walt whitman as the original beat.  but was he a BEAT WRITER? i don't

think many people would say yes. i think the beat generation is a group

of writers who accepted the label- some begrudgingly, yes, but i think

the most of them accepted it.

bukowski doesn't want to be referred to as a beat writer as i understand

it. well, maybe he's NOT. maybe he's "beat" in many ways, but not a beat

writer. especially if he denies the label.  (side note- wasn't THE beat

writer trying hard to shed that image, leading to a world of seclusion?)

i don't think we should be concerned with whether or not bukowski is

beat. let's just enjoy the work he has put out in a way we would enjoy

someone like whitman's (not comparing the 2).

again though, just a humble opinion.

bob

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:01:54 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Trying To Get To Heaven Re: Bob Dylan,

              Standing In The Doorway.

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19970929205339.0068dbac@pop.gpnet.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

test

 

   Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                   FREE

                      at

                        BookZen

                      http://www.bookzen.com

           375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:12:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Burroughs piece

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Hello fellow Beat-L'ers,

 

I'm currently the Internet Editor for B&A New Fiction, and

the latest Net Editorial I've written is on Burroughs. It's

not really an editorial but a fiction. It's also not really a

fiction, but a fragmented narrative involving 17 quotations

from 10 books, two photographs, 3 paintings, and a couple of

concrete poems that are all an integral part of the story. The

piece is also a memorial/tribute, but it is more than that,

and perhaps less.

 

In any case, the lead in page is at

http://www.interlog.com/~fiction/netedit.html

and the actual tribute is linked from there. I'll warn you

that it is about 400K with all the images.

 

It was writing this piece that has finally brought a sense of

closure. I didn't burn anything, but created something with

Burroughs as silent collaborator. We have different ways

of dealing with grief, and this is how I dealt with mine.

 

It's called "ghost-writing: a metempsychosis"

 

I invite you all to read/view it, and I'd appreciate any

comments or feedback.

 

Thanks,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:03:50 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Campo Ai Frari, Venezia.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

rinaldo, my brother: are you sure i'm not you? or maybe i'm' the dog

mc

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

>         GOD BLESS

>         THE CHEER

>         FUL GIVER

>         I HAVE NO

>         OTHER INC

>         OME I WIS

>         H YOU   GOO

>         D LUCK TH

>         ANK YOU

> 

>         I need money

>         to be

>         an artist

> 

>         (not

>                 in

>                         conjunction

>                                 with

>                                 la biennale arte)

> 

>         thursday morning fog

>                         the fox

>                                 knows many things

>         she (the fox) told

> 

>                 WATER FOR DOGS!

> 

>         i

>                 PHONED HIM

>                 last night

> 

>         but he (the dog) was

>                 DRUNK

>         CLUMSY  DOG!

> 

>         i need money

>                 i need money

>         to be but he was drunk.

> 

> ---

> Rinaldo

> 2th oct 97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:28:45 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: bukowski as beat

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Despite the fact that this answers to these questions are about as

likely as solving the "how many angels are there on the head of a pin"

problem, and about as important, the problem is fun.

 

 

Whitman may be a "spiritual father" for some Beat writers but in a

vastly different space and time.  I can't conceive of a serious argument

for his place in any beat canon. If he had come back in the fifties and

seen Beat I doubt if he would have recognized himself in it.  Bukowski

and certain others, Spicer especially, present a different problem.

They share too many traits we think of as "Beat" to easily accept their

own denials that they are Beat writers.  I think this points to their

fear of getting sucked into A. Ginsberg's beat club and losing their

sense of their individual specialness.  All these guys had strong ego's

and Allan was such a charismatic PR man that he tended to dominate the

agenda.  He also picked the writers he wanted to promote, almost always

his old cronies.  It was easier for Bukowski to avoid this label because

he was out of the New York/San Francisco axis in LA.  For Spicer it was

harder.  He drank in the same bars and hung out with alot of of the SF

Beats.  He just wanted to be his own guy, and his poetry is in some ways

more classical than the others, although Whalen reminds me of Spicer

sometimes.

 

Literary history will ignore these fine divisions, however.  Whether

this group will always be labelled Beat or grouped under a wider label,

Bukowski and Spicer will always find themselves in this company, like it

or not.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Bob Lewis wrote:

> 

> ahhh, the old question of is bukowski beat.

> here's my humble opinion.

> 

> i think writers can have many "beat" characteristics. i bet if we put all

> 275 heads together on this list, we can name at least 25 writers who fit

> the description of "beat".

> FOR INSTANCE.... i've heard many  people around the beat lit circle refer

> to walt whitman as the original beat.  but was he a BEAT WRITER? i don't

> think many people would say yes. i think the beat generation is a group

> of writers who accepted the label- some begrudgingly, yes, but i think

> the most of them accepted it.

> bukowski doesn't want to be referred to as a beat writer as i understand

> it. well, maybe he's NOT. maybe he's "beat" in many ways, but not a beat

> writer. especially if he denies the label.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:53:50 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat-L Special

In-Reply-To:  <970930204448_-1027765521@emout17.mail.aol.com>

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>I have copies of the hardcover first edition of Kerouac's Selected Letters -

>as new in dust jacket - and signed by editor Ann Charters.

>Available to Beat-L members for $15.00 plus $1.50 shipping (USA)

>while supply lasts. Foreign orders: shipping is $3.00.

>This book originally published at $29.95 so that's a savings of almost 50%

>plus these copies are signed....

>Thanks _

>Jeffrey

>Water Row Books

>PO Box 438

>Sudbury MA 01776

 

Send me a copy Jeffrey. You have al the information: address, credti card

number.

 

j grant

 

 

   Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                   FREE

                      at

                        BookZen

                      http://www.bookzen.com

           375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:30:55 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      whole earth review #90

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just thought that i would let ya'll know that the Whole Earth Review #90

contains Allen Ginsberg's (new?) "Mind Writing: Exercizes in POetic

Candor" and "mindwriting slogans" as well as two cute sketches of him by

ken botto. great pieces - great magazine (recently back on the shelves

after months on non-publication due to lack of $. sigh)

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 21:00:40 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Friendly Advice to a Lot of Young Men (Re: bukowski as beat)

In-Reply-To:  <19971003.091401.3582.0.kokupokit@juno.com>

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Friendly Advice to a Lot of Young Men   by Charles Bukowski

 

Go to Tibet.

Ride a camel.

Read the bible.

Dye your shoes blue.

Grow a beard.

Circle the world in paper canoe.

Subscribe to The Saturday Evening Post.

Chew on the left side of your mouth only.

Marry a woman with one leg and shave with a

        straight razor.

And carve your name in her arm.

 

Brush your teeth with gasoline.

Sleep all day and climb trees at night.

Be a monk and drink buckshot and beer.

Hold your head under water and play violin.

Do a belly dance before pink candles.

Kill your dog.

Run for Mayor.

Live in a barrel.

Break your head with a hatchet.

Plant tulips in the rain.

 

but don't write poetry.

 

---written by henry charles bukowski---

 

not God but for sure a poetry angel---if he told to us

---i'm not a beat---or i'm not a poet---i'm Hunger---

like Knut Hamsun---saluti a tutti da rinaldo---

 

 

At 10.12 03/10/97 EDT,  Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM> wrote:

>ahhh, the old question of is bukowski beat.

>here's my humble opinion.

> 

>i think writers can have many "beat" characteristics. i bet if we put all

>275 heads together on this list, we can name at least 25 writers who fit

>the description of "beat".

[snippin' for brevity]

>bob

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:08:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat interviews

Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.95.970930211013.13932C-100000@devel.nacs.net>

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On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

 

> Thanks everyone who helped me try and figure out who this mystery Arthur

> interviewer is. I have to go back to the original tape again, and maybe I

> will hear one of these names -- Arthurs Godfrey and Barlow, and Arnold

> Beerbaum -- in the previously incomprehensible bit. (What was that, "You

> can't learn anything you don't already know?")

> 

Michael,

I wonder if you could have had in mind Al Aronowitz, who wrote a series of

articles called "The Beat Generation" for the _New York Post_ from March 9

to March 22, 1959. He interviewed Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs for his

articles and included quotes from them.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

10/3/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:35:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

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I'm going to San Fransisco!! For the first time!  I will be making my trip

in November (around thanksgiving) and was wondering if anyone had any

recommendations for the places I *have* to visit.  I already plan on going

to City Lights Books and seeing Jack Kerouac Street.  I'll also go to

Haight and Ashbury.  Where else should I go?  I've got 5 days to blow and

I'm under 21, someone help me :)

 

Dana

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:09:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Entropy Operator <rush2@INSTANTLINUX.COM>

Subject:      Re: your mail

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.95.971003143157.2569A-100000@reality.tessier.com>

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On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Dana Lee Kober wrote:

 

> I'm going to San Fransisco!! For the first time!  I will be making my trip

> in November (around thanksgiving) and was wondering if anyone had any

> recommendations for the places I *have* to visit.  I already plan on going

> to City Lights Books and seeing Jack Kerouac Street.  I'll also go to

> Haight and Ashbury.  Where else should I go?  I've got 5 days to blow and

> I'm under 21, someone help me :)

> 

> Dana

Make sure you get on highway ne and drive about an hour or two away

forsf.. or you'll kick yourself to hell. half moon bay is a great place..

it's serene watchnig the 'surfers' go and do what they do.. I rented a

bike when I was there nad just spent a weekend riding up the coast.. and

dont be afraid to cross the bridge over to berkeley too :)  heck.. make

that first left when you get over the bridge.. its a neat little place.

.that old civil war encampment. neat place to ply around in.. great view

of the bay.. really pieceful/big cliff over the water you can just kinda

look down and watch the waves crash against the rock..  Check out sfsu.. I

cant rememebr which highway.. cuz I was going there from sunnyvale.. but

its a great drive.. big wide open highways.. beautiful hills.. and your

sure to find some kind of musical thing going on outsid.. in the campus by

the library.. and well ya gotta check out the coffee shops @ stanford.. i

spent a very entertaining evening at he coffee sops/bookshosp with a guy i

met there (great guy.  his nick's qua (i saw an article about him in wired

so looked him up).. look up qua! :) http://www.cs.olumbia.edu/~henry he's

a crazy great  guy obsessed with koala bears and piggy back rides. of

course there's city lights.. but on hyde stret there's ltos to do..

there's this great outdoor bistro (accrossed the street from.. gez. im not

sure. there's a bicycle shop aroudn thre.. but this outdoorrestaurant has

great tea and the food was rather good too (I had grilled ahi.. first tie

I ever had and it was amazing.. pricey too but that's sf).. take hyde sret

towards the wate and get on (the name I cant rmemeber) the road with all

the piers and go up/down therm.. lots of interesting things .. and.. well.

if you take the big highway towards sunnyvale (the one by the airport..

you get to the airport from there) from sf.. and go about 40 miles when

you get into sunynvale.. you'll see a holliday inn "residence" (or maybe a

marriot residence *shrug) on your right down that way is a big AMD

processor factory *snore.. but on your left is a great northern/southern

indian restauarant. great atmosphere and decent food (but you really dont

have to go that far from sf to get to good food :) *grin* well there aer

most of my tips for enjoying yourelf in sf.. oh and try the "tgi fridays"

on hyde street (ys i really enjoye dthe little area by hyde street.. not

too far from city lights I think.. but not sure cuz i was driving).. lots

of people.. always there.. lots of yuippies but then you get your version

of the californian average joe too .. it's all fun :)

and of course go hang out in haight  park :)  its like being in

manhattan.. always some cool kid.. runaway whatever. playing some kinda

instrument..  when youve got nowhere else to go interesting go right down

there

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:24:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Small update on Lowell Festivities

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Go to The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page for update at:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

There will be a comprehesive update after the weekend is over. I have a

brief overview on the page of today's Beat Symposium. Thanks, Paul....

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 21:16:55 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: the early Bukowski.

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971003062249.0071a934@pop.gpnet.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Return-Path: <morpheous@boone.net>

>From: "Matthew Murray" <morpheous@boone.net>

>To: "Rinaldo Rasa" <rasa@gpnet.it>

>Subject: Re: the early Bukowski.

>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:39:53 -0400

> 

>Matthew Murray writes:

>The word "beat" as coined by Jack can be looked at not so much as a time or

>situation dependent literary genre, but an artistic and spiritual attitude.

>"Beat" aka cashed, worn out, tired, not so much the hipster thing.  If

>Charles Bukowski was not "beat" then I don't know who is, but Bukowski

>himself sneered at being classified with those folks.  He was indifferent

>when he met Bill Burroughs, and always sighed when young hipsters would tell

>him how much they dug his "shit,man" within the context of beat authoring.

>The bottom line is that these folks were both damn good writers and they

>both strained the hell out of their livers.

> 

>-*-

 

Rinaldo,

 

Was "Beat" coined by JK?

 

I thought there were closer, more significant ties to Hunke and/or Kaufmann

being responsible. I think Herb Caine (sp) San Francisco columnist

attributed it to Kaufmann, however, the recent Hunke Reader (and I'm a bit

foggy right now) says Hunke..

 

j grant

 

   Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                   FREE

                      at

                        BookZen

                      http://www.bookzen.com

           375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:37:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Jon B. Pearlstone" <THYE@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dana's request for SF Ideas

 

A few spots worth checking out if your into authentic Beat areas:

 

1.  The Town of Bolinas

2.   Bolinas Beach

3.   The areas around Mount Tam--near "mill city" as described in OTR

4.   The Beaches along the coast north of San Francisco

5.   Anywhere in Point Reyes National Seashore

 

 

All of these are in or near Marin County--just north across the golden gate

bridge from San Francisco--I moved here a year ago and there is so much to

see (particularly if you're into outdoors stuff) you could never do it all.

 

Be sure to check out all the small towns in Marin--Sausalito, Mill Valley,

etc.  Lots of bike rental shops as this is the home of mountain biking--great

way to get around--also ask for maps--I recommend "the ramblers guide to

Mount Tamalpais"

 

Could be rainy this year in November--come prepared

 

Hope that helps--

 

Jon Pearlstone

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 4 Oct 1997 02:04:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: the early Bukowski.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:16 PM 10/3/97 -0600, you wrote:

>>Return-Path: <morpheous@boone.net>

>>From: "Matthew Murray" <morpheous@boone.net>

>>To: "Rinaldo Rasa" <rasa@gpnet.it>

>>Subject: Re: the early Bukowski.

>>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:39:53 -0400

>> 

>>Matthew Murray writes:

>>The word "beat" as coined by Jack can be looked at not so much as a time or

>>situation dependent literary genre, but an artistic and spiritual attitude.

>>"Beat" aka cashed, worn out, tired, not so much the hipster thing.  If

>>Charles Bukowski was not "beat" then I don't know who is, but Bukowski

>>himself sneered at being classified with those folks.  He was indifferent

>>when he met Bill Burroughs, and always sighed when young hipsters would tell

>>him how much they dug his "shit,man" within the context of beat authoring.

>>The bottom line is that these folks were both damn good writers and they

>>both strained the hell out of their livers.

>> 

>>-*-

> 

>Rinaldo,

> 

>Was "Beat" coined by JK?

> 

>I thought there were closer, more significant ties to Hunke and/or Kaufmann

>being responsible. I think Herb Caine (sp) San Francisco columnist

>attributed it to Kaufmann, however, the recent Hunke Reader (and I'm a bit

>foggy right now) says Hunke..

> 

>j grant

> 

>   Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

>                   FREE

>                      at

>                        BookZen

>                      http://www.bookzen.com

>           375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

> 

> 

 

He died of cancer in the last year, at 81, 29 years

after quitting smoking.  Herb Caen was a columnist for

the San Francisco Chronicle since the 40s.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 4 Oct 1997 06:01:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: origins of "beat"

MIME-Version: 1.0

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j grant writes:

 

> >Was "Beat" coined by JK?

> >

> >I thought there were closer, more significant ties to Hunke and/or

Kaufmann

> >being responsible. I think Herb Caine (sp) San Francisco columnist

> >attributed it to Kaufmann, however, the recent Hunke Reader (and I'm a

bit

> >foggy right now) says Hunke..

> >

> >j grant

 

Kerouac and John Clellon Holmes picked up the street term "beat" from

Huncke initially, but it was Kerouac and Holmes who applied it to their

generation (i.e. Beat Generation).

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 4 Oct 1997 06:46:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: origins of "beat"

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Jym Mooney wrote:

> 

> j grant writes:

> 

> > >Was "Beat" coined by JK?

> > >

> > >I thought there were closer, more significant ties to Hunke and/or

> Kaufmann

> > >being responsible. I think Herb Caine (sp) San Francisco columnist

> > >attributed it to Kaufmann, however, the recent Hunke Reader (and I'm a

> bit

> > >foggy right now) says Hunke..

> > >

> > >j grant

> 

> Kerouac and John Clellon Holmes picked up the street term "beat" from

> Huncke initially, but it was Kerouac and Holmes who applied it to their

> generation (i.e. Beat Generation).

> 

> Jym

 

i recall seeing 'beat' used in WSB's letters 45-59 that i read this

summer - seemed to be a street use that he might have picked up from

Huncke, but i was kinda surprised that he doesn't get included in the

anatomy of the term.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 4 Oct 1997 08:29:47 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Al  (Jazzbeaux) Collins

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Jazz fans and students of Kerouacian details  will be saddened to hear

of the passing of veteran jazz dj Al Collins at the age of 79 in Mill

Valley.  Al in his Purple Grotto appears in at least one place in

Visions of Cody. Al was an unforgettable act.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 4 Oct 1997 15:47:20 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Al  (Jazzbeaux) Collins

 

god, feels like we're going to have to look back at this year as the year of

death.  spin some good ones in Beat heaven, Al - godspeed.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:53:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: origins of "beat"

Comments: To: race@midusa.net

 

Dear Beatnik-L

 

The term "Beatnik" first appeared in Herb Caen's

column refering to "beats" and "sputnik" as both far out!

Legand has it that Bob Kaufman probably said beatnik first,

but no one knows for sure. Caen claimed he coined the term,

and although his column was mostly quotes of things people said,

he was always making up words...

 

with flowers in my hair,

Gary Mex

Words on Wheels

85 Stanyan Street and other Sorrows

Frisco by the Bay

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 4 Oct 1997 17:38:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Philomene Long <PHILOMENE@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: the early Bukowski.

 

Philomene Long here. Regarding Bukowski and the Beats- I thought I would ask

John Thomas for first hand quotes from Hank about his being called "Beat".

The following is John's reply.

 

"Drunk or sober, Hank brooded about the Beats.  To me, on night in 1967,

reasonably sober: 'Oh, JOhn, I can't stand your friends!  All these candy-ass

little Beats! Mumble, mumble.' Hank didn't want to be hooked to any group or

achooll, wanted to stand alone. ANother night, same year, at BArney's

Beanery, pretty boxed out and acreaming: 'I'M CHARLES BUKOWSKI THE POET!' No

one looked up. Me: ' Shit, HAnk, say your Ginsberg. That'll grab 'em/ Hank: '

I'd rather be deadm man.  I'd rather be Sara Teasdale.' "

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 4 Oct 1997 19:44:34 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: the early Bukowski.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Philomene,

 

Thanks for the wonderful Bukowsi quotes.  It is easy to imagine Jack

Spicer, equally hammered, ranting the same rant.  What hell it was for

these guys, brilliant as they were, to have to exist in Ginzy's media

shadow.

 

Nice to have your input on the list.  Say hi to  griffin for me if you

see him.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Philomene Long wrote:

 

(snip)

> 

> "Drunk or sober, Hank brooded about the Beats.  To me, on night in 1967,

> reasonably sober: 'Oh, JOhn, I can't stand your friends!  All these candy-ass

> little Beats! Mumble, mumble.' (snip)  ANother night, same year, at BArney's

> Beanery, pretty boxed out and acreaming: 'I'M CHARLES BUKOWSKI THE POET!' No

> one looked up. Me: ' Shit, HAnk, say your Ginsberg. That'll grab 'em/ Hank: '

> I'd rather be deadm man.  I'd rather be Sara Teasdale.' "

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 4 Oct 1997 19:49:27 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Al  (Jazzbeaux) Collins

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

It would be nice to know how Al will do his show in the Great Beyond.

He may have to give up the Purple Grotto thing, "3 and 1/2 stories below

the main studio" or however he billed it--maybe Al from a purple cloud,

spinning some great bop for all the bad beat boys in that great reunion

out there . . . with a few of his Lord Buckleyesque raps thrown in

between cuts.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Sherri wrote:

 

 spin some good ones in Beat heaven, Al - godspeed.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 4 Oct 1997 20:26:08 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat interviews

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Michael,

 

This seems a far more likely interviewer than anyone else I have heard

mentioned, Arthur Godfrey?  Please.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Michael Skau wrote:

> I wonder if you could have had in mind Al Aronowitz, who wrote a series of

> articles called "The Beat Generation" for the _New York Post_ from March 9

> to March 22, 1959.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:25:00 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Campo Ai Frari, Venezia.

 

ah Rinaldo, the song of all artists....  and if i had the money i'd give it to

you and Marie to pursue your Muses.  (know what it's like to have to go from

artist  to working stiff....)

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 5 Oct 1997 17:57:50 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Kerr <kerr@THEPLA.NET>

Subject:      mail

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It seems that all mail adressed to beat-l has been somehow sent here.

There are 50 messages which have not been deleted and im wondering why

this is happening.

could you please mail me if you know what is going on

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 5 Oct 1997 07:50:34 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: mail

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kafka has been reincarnated as a computer ?

the elfs again?

i have no idea, john but am wondering if this will make it to you or to

the list as well

mc

 

John Kerr wrote:

 

> It seems that all mail adressed to beat-l has been somehow sent here.

> There are 50 messages which have not been deleted and im wondering why

> this is happening.

> could you please mail me if you know what is going on

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 5 Oct 1997 07:43:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: mail

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Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> kafka has been reincarnated as a computer ?

> the elfs again?

> i have no idea, john but am wondering if this will make it to you or to

> the list as well

> mc

> 

> John Kerr wrote:

> 

> > It seems that all mail adressed to beat-l has been somehow sent here.

> > There are 50 messages which have not been deleted and im wondering why

> > this is happening.

> > could you please mail me if you know what is going on

 

heisenberg's uncertainty principle in relation to the beat-l techne

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:20:00 +0900

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         rastous@ADL.AUSLINK.NET

Subject:      Is Kesey considered beat?

In-Reply-To:  <34362CA0.6A4A@midusa.net>

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Odd question, I know, but one which I beg an answer to...

 

Anyone care to help?

 

Cheers,

 

Rastous El Aurance

 

 

For further examples of my work, check out Liquid Review at:

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm

 

And catch me, Pushkin & Krystalle on Tumultuous in Real Audio:

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm on October 17, 11pm Adelaide

time.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:28:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: mail

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 05:57 PM 10/5/97 +1000, you wrote:

>It seems that all mail adressed to beat-l has been somehow sent here.

>There are 50 messages which have not been deleted and im wondering why

>this is happening.

>could you please mail me if you know what is going on

> 

No idea - I have gotten hardly any Beat-L mail in the past couple of days.

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 5 Oct 1997 11:35:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Poems from the Womb of Unity copyright 10/97

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> > > Expectancy

> > >

> > > Quiet rapture of silently sitting

> > >                                         doing nothing

> > >

> > > and             the Universe comes to you

> > >

> > >                                 in

> > >

> > >                         every chirping of the crickets

> > >

> > >                                 echoing

> > >

> > > the lost songs of generations lost in the rush of living joylessly

> > >

> > >                                synchronicity

> > >

> > >                 at first it hits you in the face . . . BAM!

> > >

> > >                         that's a miracle and then comes

> > >

> > >                                 the doubt

> > >                                 the fear

> > >

> > >                         at the move back from the shock

> > >

> > >                                 BUT ...

> > >

> > >         then you move past false promise to the expectancy of

> > >

> > >                            syncrhonicity

> > >

> > >                         as long as the crickets chirp.

> > >

> > > Second poem:

> > >

> > > Duality

> > >

> > > The idea of duality

> > >         is the paradox which

> > >         most faces the dawning

> > >         of the new millenia

> > > We long for unity

> > >         it is a longing imbedded

> > >         deep in our genetic memory

> > >         and the presence of duality

> > >         propels us to try to

> > >         connect every duality

> > >         that we see

> > > But --

> > >         this creates a whole new set

> > >         of dualities

> > >         as the connected spots form new

> > >         separations

> > >         that forbid us from meeting

> > >         our desires. . .

> > > We need another look

> > >         to Divide not Connect

> > >         the dualities to Infinity

> > > And then LISTEN

> > >         -- quietly

> > >         -- carefully

> > >         until the symphony of Infinity

> > >         creates the sound of Unity

> > >

> > >         AND We

> > >                 realize

> > >                 and accept

> > >         that

> > >         Infinity

> > >                         and

> > >                                    Unity

> > >                 are

> > >                 the

> > >                 same

> > >                 coin

> > >         merely different sides

> > >                 of

> > >              Eternity

> > >

> > > dbr

> >

> >                         Dis-Ease

> > written ten a.m. from womb of unity ... for gene ....

> > by David Rhaesa

> >

> > Dis-ease is a lack

> >         of easiness

> >         an allergy of duality

> >         in the connections

> >         of the spirit

> >         with the world

> >

> >         The body places our

> >                 souls

> >                 and part of our

> >                 consciousness

> >                 within the limits

> >                 of finite

> >                 space/time

> >

> >                 And our soul resides

> >                         in the infinity

> >                         and unity of

> >                         eternity

> >

> >                         And the duality of

> >                                 finite and infinite

> >                                 together

> >                                 can lead to

> >                                 fight or flight

> >                                 and consequent

> >                                 dis-ease

> >

> >                 or Stand and EnJOY

> >                         and

> >                         easily

> >                         breathe the prayer of living

> >                         grateful

> >                         with

> >                         our

> >                         place in the

> >                         Universe

> >

> >                                 one grain of sand

> >

> >         an electromagnetic force combining to form a spiritual

> >                 and physical being

> >                                 connected

> >                                 to

> >                                 the family

> >

> >                                         beings

> >                                         becoming functional

> >                                         from the dysfunctionality

> >                                         of our own

> >                                         making

> >

> >                 Bound,

> >                         Healing,

> >                 in the

> >                 wedding

> >                 of

> >                 the Bride and Groom

> >

> >                         the anima and animus

> >                         that from the Womb

> >                         creates

> >                         the Archetypal Self

> >                                 draped

> >                                 in a coat

> >                                 of many colours

> >

> >         And communicate

> >                 the truth of Love

> >                 that deconstructs the Paradigm of Fear

> >                 the messages we hear of

> >                 choice is tragic

> >                 and

> >                 we are condemned to freedom

> >

> >                         LOVE

> >                         SHINES

> >                         THROUGH

> >

> >                         with

> >                         the recognition in the Other

> >                                 the Thou

> >

> >         in my neighbor and my Pet Rock

> >

> >                                         as Ultimate Concern

> >

> >                 of the Shared Responsibility

> >

> >                                 one grain

> >                                 of sand

> >                                 to another

> >                                 creating

> >                                 courageously

> >                                         from the Cocoon of the Self

> >

> >                 to the Creature

> >

> >                         the Butterfly

> >

> >                                 of the Universal  WE.

> >

> > david rhaesa

> > salina kansas

> > copyright October 97

> >

> > dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:51:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac weekend...Thanks!

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Thanks to all those who attended and purchased the Kerouac Quarterly. Your

help towards making this publication successful is greatly appreciated. The

future plan for TKQ is to found a journal for the serious scholarly study of

Kerouac and his work(s). What I endeavor to do with the proceeds of all

future issues is to create some form of scholarship by contribution and to

make the journal solely non-profit. With the rising costs of independent

publishing, it makes this plan even more of a challenge. For Vol. I, No. 3,

one dollar from each issue sold will be placed into a scholarship fund. The

particulars of this are not nailed down but it will be based on submissions

from those who have undertaken an undergraduate study of Kerouac in the form

of an essay. Thesis' submitted will be judged by an editorial board of

educators who are more than casually acquainted with this field of

study.This board, (an attempt to create a solid editorial board who are in

the postion to judge articulate, researched, and well-thought out

essays)will commit to an issue of TKQ in choosing essays for each quarter.

Anyone who feels they would like to be on this board please contact me off

the list.

  There are still a few issues left of Vol. I, No. 2. Again, thanks to those

who purchased this issue and made it possible to continue with a third. I

beat the national average of 2 issues for independent publications!

 

There are some updates as of today on TKQ Web Page:

 

     Take care, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly. . .

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 5 Oct 1997 19:54:22 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         George <nellie@CCO.NET>

Subject:      black beats

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

       Thanks to the wonders of our education system, I have to do a report

on a 'famous' African American, and I'd like to do one on a beat poet and

I'm having trouble finding out if there was an African American beat poet,

much less anything about them.  So I'd apperciate any help.

 

Janelle

 

 

 

 

 

        "Strange now to think of you, gone without corsets & eyes,"

                                                        --Allen Ginsberg

 

        "So in America when the sun goes down and I sit on the old broken-down

river pier watching the long, long skies over New Jersey and sense all that

raw land  that rolls in one unbelivble huge bulge over to the West Coast,

and all that road going and all thoes people dreaming in the immensity of

it, and in Iowa i know by now the children must be crying in the land where

they let the children cry, and tonight the stars'll be out, and don't you

know God is Pooh Bear?  the evening star must be drooping and shedding her

spakler dims on the prairie, which is just before the coming of compleate

night that blesses the earth, darkens all rivers, cups the peaks and folds

the final shore in, and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to

anybody besides the forlorn rags of growing old, I think of Dean Moriarty, I

even think of old Dean Moriarty the father we never found, I think of Dean

Moriarty."                      --Jack Kerouac

 

 

 

*********************************************************************

If you would like to submit an artical, drawing, photograph, poem, song,

story, joke, rant, manifesto, or whatever else you have, to 96 MILES TO

PORTLAND, PLEASE contact me.  If you want to subscribe PLEASE contact me, if

you submitt your issue containing the submission is free.  If you would just

like to get an issue then it's $1. By e-mail it's free but you can't seee

the pretty pictures

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:11:05 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: black beats

In-Reply-To:  <199710060254.TAA12479@kessel.connectcorp.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>       Thanks to the wonders of our education system, I have to do a report

>on a 'famous' African American, and I'd like to do one on a beat poet and

>I'm having trouble finding out if there was an African American beat poet,

>much less anything about them.  So I'd apperciate any help.

> 

>Janelle

> 

 

Janelle,

 

Couple of books by Bob Kaufman. Black poet. Close to Keroauc in CA in the

very beginning.

 

Check:

THE ANCIENT RAIN: Poems 1956-1978 (Beat Poetry) by Bob Kaufman

http://www.bookzen.com/books/002kaubob.html

 

and

Solitudes Crowded With Loneliness (Beat Poetry) by Bob Kaufman

http://www.bookzen.com/books/001kaubob.html

 

 

Some believe he coined the term "Beat," but it was probably Herbert Huncke

 

Herbert Huncke Reader, The (Non-Fiction) Edited by Ben Schafer

http://www.bookzen.com/books/068815266Xb.html

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Also, call REFERENCE DESK at public or college library. They love to help.

 

j grant

 

   Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                   FREE

                      at

                        BookZen

                      http://www.bookzen.com

           375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:22:58 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: black beats

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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George wrote:

> 

>        Thanks to the wonders of our education system, I have to do a report

> on a 'famous' African American, and I'd like to do one on a beat poet and

> I'm having trouble finding out if there was an African American beat poet,

> much less anything about them.

 

Janelle,

 

Start with A. Baraka (formerely Le Roi Jones) and especially Bob

Kaufman. Kaufman's "Cranial Guitar" should be findable in Olympia, as

would some Jones (Baraka) (sp--my mental spell check is off tonight.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 5 Oct 1997 23:51:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: black beats

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Why not try Bob Kaufamn and LeRoi Jones(Amiri Barkara) and Ted Jones.

There's a good book of criticism that includes them: _The Beat Generation

Writers_ ed. A. Robert Lee.

 

Jon

 

At 07:54 PM 10/5/97 -0700, you wrote:

>       Thanks to the wonders of our education system, I have to do a report

>on a 'famous' African American, and I'd like to do one on a beat poet and

>I'm having trouble finding out if there was an African American beat poet,

>much less anything about them.  So I'd apperciate any help.

> 

>Janelle

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>        "Strange now to think of you, gone without corsets & eyes,"

>                                                        --Allen Ginsberg

> 

>        "So in America when the sun goes down and I sit on the old

broken-down

>river pier watching the long, long skies over New Jersey and sense all that

>raw land  that rolls in one unbelivble huge bulge over to the West Coast,

>and all that road going and all thoes people dreaming in the immensity of

>it, and in Iowa i know by now the children must be crying in the land where

>they let the children cry, and tonight the stars'll be out, and don't you

>know God is Pooh Bear?  the evening star must be drooping and shedding her

>spakler dims on the prairie, which is just before the coming of compleate

>night that blesses the earth, darkens all rivers, cups the peaks and folds

>the final shore in, and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to

>anybody besides the forlorn rags of growing old, I think of Dean Moriarty, I

>even think of old Dean Moriarty the father we never found, I think of Dean

>Moriarty."                      --Jack Kerouac

> 

> 

> 

>*********************************************************************

>If you would like to submit an artical, drawing, photograph, poem, song,

>story, joke, rant, manifesto, or whatever else you have, to 96 MILES TO

>PORTLAND, PLEASE contact me.  If you want to subscribe PLEASE contact me, if

>you submitt your issue containing the submission is free.  If you would just

>like to get an issue then it's $1. By e-mail it's free but you can't seee

>the pretty pictures

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 5 Oct 1997 23:36:53 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Caleb Carr

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

For anyone interested, there's an interesting interview with Caleb Carr

at the Salon website. Here's where to go:

http://www.salonmagazine.com/books/int/

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:18:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      another monday morning

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a twister catches

all Beat-L posts and deposits

them in the chirp of a cricket

Frances spills a cup

of coffee and it showers

the cricket

who runs away

but returns

to sing his song

just another monday morning

october this time around (i think)

on my back stoop....

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:23:41 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac weekend...Thanks!

In-Reply-To:  Message of Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:51:53 -0400 from

              <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

 

It was a fun conference, Paul.  Looked for you at the book fair and at the conc

ert/reading Friday night but didn't run into you.  Maybe next time.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:37:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "p. durgin" <pdurgin@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: black beats

Comments: To: George <nellie@CCO.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199710060254.TAA12479@kessel.connectcorp.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

        Ted Joans, LeRoi Jones (Amiri Baraki), and fucking Langston Hughes

if you want to stretch a bit.  I saw the second Jones read last year at

the Walker Art Center in Minneapolis, and it seems that, in the current

climate of poetics, he's the most immediate and vital poet left of the

beats.  "Transblusency" and there's an autobiography somewhere.

 

        Patrick F. Durgin

 

 

                     |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu|||

                        ___________________________

 

On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, George wrote:

 

>        Thanks to the wonders of our education system, I have to do a report

> on a 'famous' African American, and I'd like to do one on a beat poet and

> I'm having trouble finding out if there was an African American beat poet,

> much less anything about them.  So I'd apperciate any help.

> 

> Janelle

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>         "Strange now to think of you, gone without corsets & eyes,"

>                                                         --Allen Ginsberg

> 

>         "So in America when the sun goes down and I sit on the old broken-down

> river pier watching the long, long skies over New Jersey and sense all that

> raw land  that rolls in one unbelivble huge bulge over to the West Coast,

> and all that road going and all thoes people dreaming in the immensity of

> it, and in Iowa i know by now the children must be crying in the land where

> they let the children cry, and tonight the stars'll be out, and don't you

> know God is Pooh Bear?  the evening star must be drooping and shedding her

> spakler dims on the prairie, which is just before the coming of compleate

> night that blesses the earth, darkens all rivers, cups the peaks and folds

> the final shore in, and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to

> anybody besides the forlorn rags of growing old, I think of Dean Moriarty, I

> even think of old Dean Moriarty the father we never found, I think of Dean

> Moriarty."                      --Jack Kerouac

> 

> 

> 

> *********************************************************************

> If you would like to submit an artical, drawing, photograph, poem, song,

> story, joke, rant, manifesto, or whatever else you have, to 96 MILES TO

> PORTLAND, PLEASE contact me.  If you want to subscribe PLEASE contact me, if

> you submitt your issue containing the submission is free.  If you would just

> like to get an issue then it's $1. By e-mail it's free but you can't seee

> the pretty pictures

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:52:53 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Davide's Bar.

In-Reply-To:  <3437C1E6.779@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        RORSCHA

        CH BLOT

        S

 

        a paint

        ing a w

        all a s

        hip by

        the rai

        lroad a

        n ice-c

        ream a

        young m

        other g

        reen ve

        netian

        hills g

        reen so

        nice

 

        SUNDAY

        OCTOBER

        1997 ru

        sty tra

        ck by t

        he rail

        road st

        ation t

        he cart

        on wing

        s on a

        table a

        t david

        e's bar

 

AND THE SILENCE RETURNS.

 

 

---

rinaldo

6th oct 97

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:42:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac weekend...Thanks!

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 10:23 AM 10/6/97 EDT, you wrote:

>It was a fun conference, Paul.  Looked for you at the book fair and at the conc

>ert/reading Friday night but didn't run into you.  Maybe next time.

> 

 

 Sorry to have missed you Bill...there's always next time. Paul...

 

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:51:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Al Aronowitz

 

In a message dated 97-10-04 00:13:11 EDT, you write:

 

<< I wonder if you could have had in mind Al Aronowitz, who wrote a series of

 articles called "The Beat Generation" for the _New York Post_ from March 9

 to March 22, 1959. He interviewed Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs for his

 articles and included quotes from them. >>

 

 

check out Al's web site at http://www.bigmajic.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:28:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sudama Adam Rice <sudama@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: black beats

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> Thanks to the wonders of our education system, I have to do a report

>on a 'famous' African American

 

You don't sound happy about this assignment... how come?

 

--

Adam

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:38:55 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Is Kesey considered beat?

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i guess... one flew over the cuckoo's nest definetly is not beat, but

it is very suggestive in its implications. don't know about the rest of

his stuff.

> Odd question, I know, but one which I beg an answer to...

> 

> Anyone care to help?

> 

> Cheers,

> 

> Rastous El Aurance

> 

> 

randy

 

> For further examples of my work, check out Liquid Review at:

> http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm

> 

> And catch me, Pushkin & Krystalle on Tumultuous in Real Audio:

> http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm on October 17, 11pm Adelaide

> time.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:53:56 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Is Kesey considered beat?

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.19971006002000.007257ec@adl.auslink.net>

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Kesey is "beat" in the sense that he was a writer who wrote about

characters who fought conventionality and conformity, and had a healthy

cynicism about life and society.

 

But on the other hand, Kesey-- unlike the other beat writers-- was the

leader of a cult.  In "Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test", Tom Wolfe details

many comparisons between Kesey/the Merry Pranksters and other notable

cults.  The Pranksters were a small group of people who basically

worshipped Ken Kesey and lived through him, did what he said, and

practiced lifestyles according to his wishes.  While some might argue

that other beat writers had cults, none had one as direct as Kesey.

 

Also, most beat writers were agnostic or in question of faith, but there

was a subtle religious subtext to the Furthur bus and Kesey's

pranksterism.  Among the first places Kesey ever took his bus, and the

pranksters, were unitarian church gatherings in California.  In later

pictures of the second Furthur bus, there is a cross painted on one

side.  The Merry Pranksters apparently viewed (or view) Kesey as some

sort of prophet, and see themselves and their mission as spiritual.

 

So what? Jack Kerouac also saw his mission as spiritual in essence, but I

guess the difference is that he saw the "journey" as an individual

experience, while the Pranksters practiced a "group" experience.

 

So I would say that Ken Kesey is beat,but a different sort of beat than

Jack Kerouac.  Kerouac's beat ethic is rooted in theloneliness and

isolation of the individual soul, while Kesey's sees the world as lonely

and isolated, not the individuals in it.

 

 

RJW

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:03:38 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      road trip/not totally on track...mc

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Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> farewell electronic beats and  bohemeians! i'm off to louisville! to

> meet some cross list and new friends and read at the twice told coffe

> house .

> tomorow  morning i put myself and my electronic briefcase from hell

> (walkman dictaphone earphones cameras-batteries and film and

> sketchbooks  with a tangle of wires of course and a case full of

> cassettes/ poets and musicians mixed)(i only lack a powerbook, anyone

> want to donate?)

 

 

 

> (seroiusly, i'm

> documenting the trip with phots and on going dictation,

> actually i will look so eccentric i've figured out how to ensure a

> private seat :

> talk to dictaphone, listen to watch, talk som more.

> i think i already sent this but what the hell, moods mellow and i'm

> off on a

> ridiculously long (27hr)bus trip to l'ville.

> i'm not having my mail stopped. i'm hoping we can find some electronic

> time to at

> least drop a yahoo to the list...

> ok

> this more than anyone poss9iibly gets to know how chatty i get when im

> pounded.

> night all

> see y'all in a few days.

> i pity jim, he gets to claim my coprse or the expalin the handcuffs,

> all to be

> dealt with in chapter 2 and ok this is definitely enough.

> la to all and to al a goodnm

> mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:05:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: road trip/not totally on track...mc

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Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> > farewell electronic beats and  bohemeians! i'm off to louisville! to

> > meet some cross list and new friends and read at the twice told coffe

> > house .

> > tomorow  morning i put myself and my electronic briefcase from hell

> > (walkman dictaphone earphones cameras-batteries and film and

> > sketchbooks  with a tangle of wires of course and a case full of

> > cassettes/ poets and musicians mixed)(i only lack a powerbook, anyone

> > want to donate?)

> 

> > (seroiusly, i'm

> > documenting the trip with phots and on going dictation,

> > actually i will look so eccentric i've figured out how to ensure a

> > private seat :

> > talk to dictaphone, listen to watch, talk som more.

> > i think i already sent this but what the hell, moods mellow and i'm

> > off on a

> > ridiculously long (27hr)bus trip to l'ville.

> > i'm not having my mail stopped. i'm hoping we can find some electronic

> > time to at

> > least drop a yahoo to the list...

> > ok

> > this more than anyone poss9iibly gets to know how chatty i get when im

> > pounded.

> > night all

> > see y'all in a few days.

> > i pity jim, he gets to claim my coprse or the expalin the handcuffs,

> > all to be

> > dealt with in chapter 2 and ok this is definitely enough.

> > la to all and to al a goodnm

> > mc

 

may the wind be at your back

don't take any wooden nickels

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:18:12 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: road trip/not totally on track...mc

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good luck and take care of your shoes.

~randy

> Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> > farewell electronic beats and  bohemeians! i'm off to louisville! to

> > meet some cross list and new friends and read at the twice told coffe

> > house .

> > tomorow  morning i put myself and my electronic briefcase from hell

> > (walkman dictaphone earphones cameras-batteries and film and

> > sketchbooks  with a tangle of wires of course and a case full of

> > cassettes/ poets and musicians mixed)(i only lack a powerbook, anyone

> > want to donate?)

> 

> 

> 

> > (seroiusly, i'm

> > documenting the trip with phots and on going dictation,

> > actually i will look so eccentric i've figured out how to ensure a

> > private seat :

> > talk to dictaphone, listen to watch, talk som more.

> > i think i already sent this but what the hell, moods mellow and i'm

> > off on a

> > ridiculously long (27hr)bus trip to l'ville.

> > i'm not having my mail stopped. i'm hoping we can find some electronic

> > time to at

> > least drop a yahoo to the list...

> > ok

> > this more than anyone poss9iibly gets to know how chatty i get when im

> > pounded.

> > night all

> > see y'all in a few days.

> > i pity jim, he gets to claim my coprse or the expalin the handcuffs,

> > all to be

> > dealt with in chapter 2 and ok this is definitely enough.

> > la to all and to al a goodnm

> > mc

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:00:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: road trip/not totally on track...mc

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> farewell electronic beats and  bohemeians! i'm off to louisville! to

> meet some cross list and new friends and read at the twice told coffe

> house.

 

Cincy/Louisville isn't the city you see in the opening scenes of

"WKRP", it's more like Lowell, tenements and gray clapboard.  A good

college scene, some fun night spots, and of course that beautiful muddy

river...

 

My "Lowell" is further up river, near Steubenville (as in Dino

Crochetti's "kinda reminds me of my little apartment back in

Steubenville", back in the boozin' (he never stopped the boozin'),

gamblin', whorehousin' days before he and Jerry met up and started

making the pictures).  All steel mills and bars, with a good number of

churches that might as well be "dry bars", they serve mostly a social

function.

 

Say hello to my river.  If you feel like a swim, Cassius' gold medal is

still down there somewhere.

 

love and lilies (floating from the Monongahela and Allegheny into my

big river at Pittsburgh and on down to the Miss').

 

matt h.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:54:34 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ALAN PETER MADDRELL <apm5@ABER.AC.UK>

Subject:      beat?

In-Reply-To:  <E0xHhuy-00069T-00@ultra1.aber.ac.uk>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Brief ponderance re: question of who is "beat" and who is not.

 

Taking wandering, drinking, chemicals, bohemia as the broadest of

parameters, why not Jean Genet? Not American, born 1910 Paris, not so very

fashionable either.

 

But beat? Probably.

 

Inventive? Usually.

 

My knowledge of Genet is scant, but if you are as intrigued by this

"proto-Beat" as I am, check out "The Thief's Journal". Seems like an

earlier "Diary of a Supertramp".

 

As an afterthought, anyone get to see "The Kerouac Triangle"? I caught it

in Edinburgh during the festival. Yikes, what a vomitous letdown that

was... Further details of the horror available if required.

 

ttfn

 

Alan Maddrell

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:52:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: beat?

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At 11:54 AM 10/7/97 +0100, you wrote:

>Brief ponderance re: question of who is "beat" and who is not.

> 

>Taking wandering, drinking, chemicals, bohemia as the broadest of

>parameters, why not Jean Genet? Not American, born 1910 Paris, not so very

>fashionable either.

> 

>But beat? Probably.

> 

>Inventive? Usually.

> 

>My knowledge of Genet is scant, but if you are as intrigued by this

>"proto-Beat" as I am, check out "The Thief's Journal". Seems like an

>earlier "Diary of a Supertramp".

> 

>As an afterthought, anyone get to see "The Kerouac Triangle"? I caught it

>in Edinburgh during the festival. Yikes, what a vomitous letdown that

>was... Further details of the horror available if required.

> 

>ttfn

> 

>Alan Maddrell

> 

I would like to hear about this "Kerouac Triangle".  Tell us what you saw.

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:27:08 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat?

 

yes i was at the Fringe Festical and of course made it a priority to see the

"Kerouac Triangle" - hideous i thought.  i understand Carolyn Cassady had been

there a few nights before i was...  she must have been horrified.

 

as for Jean Genet, i haven't read him, but am aware of him as a great

influence on JK.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of ALAN PETER MADDRELL

Sent:   Tuesday, October 07, 1997 3:54 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        beat?

 

Brief ponderance re: question of who is "beat" and who is not.

 

Taking wandering, drinking, chemicals, bohemia as the broadest of

parameters, why not Jean Genet? Not American, born 1910 Paris, not so very

fashionable either.

 

But beat? Probably.

 

Inventive? Usually.

 

My knowledge of Genet is scant, but if you are as intrigued by this

"proto-Beat" as I am, check out "The Thief's Journal". Seems like an

earlier "Diary of a Supertramp".

 

As an afterthought, anyone get to see "The Kerouac Triangle"? I caught it

in Edinburgh during the festival. Yikes, what a vomitous letdown that

was... Further details of the horror available if required.

 

ttfn

 

Alan Maddrell

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:22:20 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Beat Supernova update 6th oct 1997

In-Reply-To:  <3437C1E6.779@midusa.net>

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At 13.21 07/10/97 GMT, ipl1@columbia.edu wrote:

>You have Joyce Johnson listed as JK's wife.  She was never his wife.

>She was his girlfriend during 1957/58.

> 

> 

>On 6 Oct 1997 08:19:58 GMT, you wrote:

> 

>>******** Beat Supernova update 6th oct 1997 ********

>>****************************************************

>>==Joyce Johnson [wife to JK]

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:14:21 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Kinsey and the beats in 1945.

In-Reply-To:  <3437C1E6.779@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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"All kinds of evil plans are hatched in Ritzy's Bar -

you can sense it in the air - and all kinds of mad

sexual routines are initiated to go with them. The

safecracker proposes not only a certain loft on the

14th Street to the hoodlum, but that they sleep

together. Kinsey spent a lot of time in Ritzy's Bar,

intervieweing some of the boys; I was there the night

his assistant came, in 1945. Hassel and Carlo were

interviewed."---Jack Kerouac "On the Road" p.2,5.

 

friends, it seems that Allen Ginsberg and Herbert Huncke

were interviewed by a Kinsey assistant, there is a

notice in the Kinsey's report about such famous interviewed?

thanks a lot,

rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:22:58 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Kinsey and the beats in 1945.

In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:14:21 +0100 from <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

 

Yes, Kinsey interviewed them.  They all hung out at the Angle bar which was on

8th Avenue in the Times Square area.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:35:47 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>

Subject:      Ginsberg

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Hi everyone-

 

I have a newfound love for Ginsberg.  A friend/colleague gave me a copy of

the KCET bio on him. I've watched it over and over again.  I've probably

seen it five or six times in the last couple of weeks.  Anyway, I had

never seen/heard him perform his poetry until I now.  The video begins

with him reciting "Song."  His rhythm, energy, and sincerity leave me in

awe. Now my son and I skip down the street through the autumn sun and wind

singing together, "I always wanted, I always wanted to return to the body

where I was born."

 

Tristan

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:49:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      New Catalogue

 

Our new Catalogue 71 is now available online...

226 Beat/Underground/Avant Garde items...

Check it out at www.waterrowbooks.com

Thanks -

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:03:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Entropy Operator <rush2@INSTANTLINUX.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ginsberg

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.HPP.3.91.971007171856.23036A-100000@csun1.csun.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Hi everyone-

> 

> I have a newfound love for Ginsberg.  A friend/colleague gave me a copy of

> the KCET bio on him. I've watched it over and over again.  I've probably

> seen it five or six times in the last couple of weeks.  Anyway, I had

> never seen/heard him perform his poetry until I now.  The video begins

> with him reciting "Song."  His rhythm, energy, and sincerity leave me in

> awe. Now my son and I skip down the street through the autumn sun and wind

> singing together, "I always wanted, I always wanted to return to the body

> where I was born."

> 

> Tristan

> 

 

 

Something else you might like.. is go to http://www.real.com I cant

rmemeber where but yo ucan find a link to an hour long conversation on the

radio between him and corso it's wonderful.. and look for the "Life and

times of Allen Ginsberg".. I've only seen it on the independant film

channel and the sundance channel.. last thing i watched on tv (oddly

enough) was the day after ginsberg died I watched the life and times of

allen ginsberg movie.. halfwaythrough my mother came home.. asked what I

was watching.. "that biography on ginsberg" then.. "oh he died" .. :/ oh

well. hey at least we have rap right? *grumble*

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:57:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ginsberg

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.96.971007230111.2553A-100000@poconos.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

A rather frightening but interesting story.

 

On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Entropy Operator wrote:

 

> > Hi everyone-

> >

> > I have a newfound love for Ginsberg.  A friend/colleague gave me a copy of

> > the KCET bio on him. I've watched it over and over again.  I've probably

> > seen it five or six times in the last couple of weeks.  Anyway, I had

> > never seen/heard him perform his poetry until I now.  The video begins

> > with him reciting "Song."  His rhythm, energy, and sincerity leave me in

> > awe. Now my son and I skip down the street through the autumn sun and wind

> > singing together, "I always wanted, I always wanted to return to the body

> > where I was born."

> >

> > Tristan

> >

> 

> 

> Something else you might like.. is go to http://www.real.com I cant

> rmemeber where but yo ucan find a link to an hour long conversation on the

> radio between him and corso it's wonderful.. and look for the "Life and

> times of Allen Ginsberg".. I've only seen it on the independant film

> channel and the sundance channel.. last thing i watched on tv (oddly

> enough) was the day after ginsberg died I watched the life and times of

> allen ginsberg movie.. halfwaythrough my mother came home.. asked what I

> was watching.. "that biography on ginsberg" then.. "oh he died" .. :/ oh

> well. hey at least we have rap right? *grumble*

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:41:33 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eliot Katz <eliotk@EDEN.RUTGERS.EDU>

Subject:      Andy Clausen's new book

 

        Andy Clausen's new book, _40th CENTURY MAN: SELECTED VERSE

1996-1966_, has just been published by Autonomedia. It's an amazing

collection. Andy's work is energetic, funny, visionary, politically sharp &

emotionally moving. It extends a wide range of poetic traditions from

American-democratic yearnings (Whitman/the Beats/the blues) to

Russian-futurist utopian-imaginings & laments--a nice mixture for the

post-Cold War era.

 

        Andy's poetry was highly praised by Allen Ginsberg for over twenty

years.  (Andy Clausen's name also appears on the list of beat writers that

has been circulating on the beat generation newsgroup.) On the back cover of

Andy's book, Allen Ginsberg wrote: "Andy Clausen's character voice is heroic,

a vox populi of the democratic unconscious, a 'divine average' thinking

workman persona. As 'one of the roughs,' a Whitmanic laborer, precisely a

union hod-carrier lonstanding, his bardic populism's grounded on long years'

painful sturdy experience earning family bread by the sweat of his brow. His

comments on the enthusiastic Sixties, defensive Seventies, unjust Eighties

and bullying Nineties present a genuine authority in America not voiced much

in little magazine print, less in newspapers of record, never in political

theatrics through Oval Office airwaves. The expensive bullshit of Government

TV poetics suffers dimunition of credibility placed side by side with Mr.

Clausen's direct information and sad raw insight. Would he were, I'd take my

chance on a President Clausen!"

 

        The book is 192 pages with a cover painting by Eric Drooker and a

back cover author photo taken by Allen Ginsberg. To order, write to:

Autonomedia, P.O. Box 568, Williamsburgh Station, Brooklyn, NY  11211-0568.

(www.autonomedia.org) (The book is $8.00 list price plus $2.50 shipping &

handling)

 

Eliot Katz

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:41:56 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dana's request for SF Ideas

 

Dear Dana and Beat List,

 

Here are some interesting places to

visit while in San Francisco, and a short review

of the Six Gallery Reading (held 42 years later)

and what about Chuck...

 

Starting at City Lights 261 Columbus @ Broadway

Cool old posters and broadsides,

huge selection of poetry...

(By the way Beat Literature is upstairs

Bukowski has his own section down stairs)

 

Just across Kerouac Alley

at 255 Columbus is Vesuvio's

On the wall to the left as you walk

in are photos of poets. Dylan Thomas

once drank here after a reading.

A hang out for beat writers, Kerouac

once spent the night getting drunk and

calling Henry Miller, (who he was supposed

to be on his way to see) every hour or so

telling him he was on the way, they never met.

 

Across Columbus @ #12 Adler Alley

is Spec's still a poet hang out

with interesting memorabilia

from the beat era on the walls.

 

Walk up Columbus turn right on Broadway

walk two blocks turn left

you will find at 1010 Montgomery

the apt. building where Ginsberg

lived from Feb 3rd to Sep 6th 1955

and wrote "Howl". Light a candle, spin around

look for the best minds of your...

 

Go back down Broadway to Columbus

turn right you will find Green St.

Go a half a block to

the corner of Green and Vallejo

at 605 Vallejo is Caffe Trieste

You can still find poets here,

Ask around for Jack Hershman,

a big burly madman always ready

to talk poems and politics.

 

Continue down Green Street

576 Green was the sight of the

Cellar where Rexroth and Ferlingetthi

recorded with jazz musicians.

548 Green Gino and Carlo's

a Jack Spicer hangout.

 

1353 Grant and Green

 now the Lost and Found

Saloon in the 50's was the

Coffee Gallery home of many poetry

readings.

 

Continue down Green to Union, turn right

go up to the top of the hill

At the Corner of Union and

Montgomery in an old wood frame

building Gregory Corso lived

in the 70's. Turn left on Montgomery

go a block and a

half here you find the Filbert

Steps, turn right and walk down

into turn of the century San Francisco

a neighborhood accessible only

by a steep wooden stair case,

half way down is the Filbert

Garden, yesterday I saw a

flock of wild parrots green with bright

red heads, chased by a hawk.

Walk back up the Stairs

and continue up to Coit Tower

Here you will find sweeping views of the Bay.

Inside Coit Tower are murals

painted in the 30's, see

if you can find the book by

Rexroth on the book case

in one of the murals.

Here is the opening of

Corso's poem Ode to

Coit Tower from Gasoline.

"O anti-verdurous phallic were't

not for your pouring height looming in tears

like a sick tree or your ever-gaudy-comfort

jabbing your city's much wrinkled sky you's

seem an absurd Babel squatting before mortal millions....

>From here you are on your own.

 

There is one more address you might like to check out

(20 blocks or so from North Beach)

3119 Filmore the sight of the Six Gallery

where Ginsberg first read "Howl"

Last night there was a reading held there

as commemoration of the Gallery and as a

of memorial to Ginsberg.

 

The organizer/poet Jack Foley, has come into possession

a post card that Ginsberg made to announce the

reading with the Date of Oct. 7th, 1955. Many books

about the beats have other dates for the event,

it appears that in finding the post card, Jack has the

scoop.

 

The sight is now the home of "Silk Roads"

which sells carpets. Stacks of flying carpets with little buddhas

and Hindu statues filling the shelves, in the front window

a collection of smooth phallic stones (Lingums Sp?)

Da Mayor declared it "Six Gallery Day" in San Francisco,

 

Marc Olmsteds, poem of hearing of Ginsberg's death

while on a meditation retreat was very moving,

especially sweet was the part where Ginsberg, when

calling to tell Marc he was dying told him

how good Marc had been to him over the years,

fantastic on his death bed the poet remembers to

thank his students for their kindness.

 

Also intriguing was Neeli Cherkovski, he had just returned

from a reading in Mexico City. He turned his poem about

a museum he visited into an exploration of his soul, his

mind becoming the rooms of the museum and his

thoughts the artifacts.

 

The evening closed with the true beat style of Q.R. Hand

Who bopped and wailed with his partner Reginald Lockett.

Q.R. looks and sound like he stepped out of the 50's.

He can even pull off wearing sandels.

 

Neeli wrote "Hank" the biography

of Bukowski, when I asked him if he thought Bukowski

was a beat writer, He laughed and said, "Bukowski, hated

the beats, although he was the same age, he started writing

poetry much later, his themes were different. No he is definitely

not beat." Then Joyce Jenkins of Poetry Flash said, "Bukowski

wasn't beat, he was postal!"

 

There was for me a huge shadow over the event

40 years later, the poets still trying to measure

up to that night so long ago....

 

love and flowers in my hair,

Gary Mex Glazner

85 Stanyan Street and other Sorrows

P.S. Addresses, and beat stories are from Don Herron's

The Literary World of San Francisco

published by City Lights Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:04:21 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Dana's request for SF Ideas

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:41:56 -0400 from <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

 

Great list of SF places.  Let me add 29 Russell Street near Hyde &

Union, home of the Cassadys and Jack & Memere's brief home in Berkeley

at 1943 Berkeley Way. And for some good Chinese food--Woey Loy Goey--on

Jackson, I think.  Dana, if you need hotel recommendations, email me

privately.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:30:19 -0400

Reply-To:     Greg Elwell <elwellg@voicenet.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac and Capote

MIME-Version: 1.0

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

 

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I was in the library today, doing some reading, when I took a little =

break to rest. I found myself looking around the entire library, when I =

saw a poster-type thing that I hadn't noticed before.  It said something =

like, "Great Writers," or something or other.  Anyhow, it has drawings =

of famous writers, and Kerouac and Capote were on the same poster.  I =

just find that ironic, being that Capote called Kerouac a "Typist, not a =

writer."

 

Greg Elwell

 

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        charset="iso-8859-1"

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">

<HTML>

<HEAD>

 

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I was in the library today, doing =

some reading,=20

when I took a little break to rest. I found myself looking around the =

entire=20

library, when I saw a poster-type thing that I hadn't noticed =

before.&nbsp; It=20

said something like, &quot;Great Writers,&quot; or something or =

other.&nbsp;=20

Anyhow, it has drawings of famous writers, and Kerouac and Capote were =

on the=20

same poster.&nbsp; I just find that ironic, being that Capote called =

Kerouac a=20

&quot;Typist, not a writer.&quot;</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Greg =

Elwell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

 

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BCD439.C2812840--

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:51:55 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Pulp Fiction

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Dear Beat-lers,

 

During a discussion of paperback covers of Kerouac novels I mentioned a

local outfit that has a series of postcards (and I beleive posters) of

old pulp covers.  This collection includes the original cover of "Junky"

by "Bill Lee"--WSB's first publication.

 

For those who asked I am sending along the address.  The operation has

moved from Palo Alto to Santa Barbara.  Before anyone gets too excited

let me not that "Junky" is the only beat cover I have seen, tho there

may be others.  Most of the stuff is wonderfully lurid trash,

unmemorable then and justly forgotten, but the art is great.

 

The address is

 

Jeff Luther

PC Design

P.O Box 40859

Santa Barbara, Ca. 93140

Ph:  805-88409110

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:46:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs piece

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Neil Hennessy wrote:

> In any case, the lead in page is at

> http://www.interlog.com/~fiction/netedit.html

> and the actual tribute is linked from there. I'll warn you

> 

> Neil

 

bravo

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:47:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs piece

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Neil Hennessy wrote:

> 

> Hello fellow Beat-L'ers,

> 

> I'm currently the Internet Editor for B&A New Fiction, and

> the latest Net Editorial I've written is on Burroughs. It's

> not really an editorial but a fiction. It's also not really a

> fiction, but a fragmented narrative involving 17 quotations

> from 10 books, two photographs, 3 paintings, and a couple of

> concrete poems that are all an integral part of the story. The

> piece is also a memorial/tribute, but it is more than that,

> and perhaps less.

> 

> In any case, the lead in page is at

> http://www.interlog.com/~fiction/netedit.html

> and the actual tribute is linked from there. I'll warn you

> that it is about 400K with all the images.

> 

> It was writing this piece that has finally brought a sense of

> closure. I didn't burn anything, but created something with

> Burroughs as silent collaborator. We have different ways

> of dealing with grief, and this is how I dealt with mine.

> 

> It's called "ghost-writing: a metempsychosis"

> 

> I invite you all to read/view it, and I'd appreciate any

> comments or feedback.

> 

> Thanks,

> Neil

 

graceful yet a real head snapper. bravo

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:34:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kinsey and the beats in 1945.

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997100718260104@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

There is a book called "Cad, A Handbook for Heels," which is a book

dedicated to "Slick cats, hip chicks, exotic sounds, G-men, B-girls, stag

parties, stogies, Spanish Fly, German Beer..." (isbn #0-922915-09-1)

It contains a reprint of an article from a 50's men's magazine called

"BEAT-ing off with Dr. Kinsey" and it gives some detail into what went on

during the interviews. There's also a very interesting reprint of an

interview with Chet Baker.   I found my copy at Tower Records.

Anne Sneddon

 

 

On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> Yes, Kinsey interviewed them.  They all hung out at the Angle bar which was on

> 8th Avenue in the Times Square area.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:26:39 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      just saying hello

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Thank god i have found some kindred souls to speak to!!!

Anyone know any cool groovy beat related places to visit in Denver

colorado? I also recently got a copy of "Some of the Dharma"

anyone else been enlightened by it yet?

 

Looking forward to getting to know ya'll.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:00:18 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs piece/ Current posting format

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia,

 

Good to have you back.

 

To all others,  I must confess I am puzzled by the current very slow

pulse of this list.  Maybe, as one who has complained when we were

getting upwards of 50 posts a day I am paying for my sins, but where is

everybody?

 

I am also puzzled by the reply format which usually indicates the list

address but sometimes the individual address.  Can Bill or someone

please elucidate why this changes?

 

Let's fire this sucker up again!

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:55:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs piece/ Current posting format

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> Patricia,

> 

> Good to have you back.

> 

> To all others,  I must confess I am puzzled by the current very slow

> pulse of this list.  Maybe, as one who has complained when we were

> getting upwards of 50 posts a day I am paying for my sins, but where is

> everybody?

> 

> I am also puzzled by the reply format which usually indicates the list

> address but sometimes the individual address.  Can Bill or someone

> please elucidate why this changes?

> 

> Let's fire this sucker up again!

> 

> James Stauffer

 

I'm up.  Have been for 38 hours .... will everybody please tell some

Beat bedtime stories :)

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:11:35 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Beat Bedtime Stories

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

David,

 

I suspect that a real beat bedtime story would be more like whatever

imaginative bullshit our heroes fed Alfred Kinsey.

 

But, once upon a time there was a Beat daddy-O bear, a Beatchick Bear

and a Beat Baby bear . . . They all spent a lot of time playing their

bongos and adjusting their berets, and combing their goatees (at least

the Daddy-O bear did) . . .  and the porridge would probably turn out to

be reefer.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:12:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat Bedtime Stories

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> David,

> 

> I suspect that a real beat bedtime story would be more like whatever

> imaginative bullshit our heroes fed Alfred Kinsey.

> 

> But, once upon a time there was a Beat daddy-O bear, a Beatchick Bear

> and a Beat Baby bear . . . They all spent a lot of time playing their

> bongos and adjusting their berets, and combing their goatees (at least

> the Daddy-O bear did) . . .  and the porridge would probably turn out to

> be reefer.

 

Somebody's bit bogarting my porridge...i know this one already does

somebody have another?

 

patricia be certain to fill us in on any excitements from your travels.

Perhaps it is a coincidence meaningful or otherwise but the slowdown

seems to have hit the little machine here that we all love to live on

about the time i punched keys in your basement and took a four hour nap

in the basement.  That was a wonderful patchwork quilt.  Is there a

story behind that.  A bedtime story...hint hint hint.... Anyone Anyone

 

To sleep to sleep perchance to have a nightmare from which i can never

awake, ah there's the rub

 

Let's see Beat sounds lately.  Listened to Allen Ginsberg's "Do The

Meditation Rock" about thirty times in the last week.  Tonight listened

to Elvis of Lettres and Spared Ass Annie.

 

Oh By the way, i heard from a cricket yesterday that Timothy Leary is

dead!  Can you believe that????

 

And i'm also a big fat liar.

 

I haven't been up for anywhere near 38 hours.  But more Beat Bedtime

stories anyway.  I liked James' lots and lots and lots.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:22:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Pulp Fiction

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> Dear Beat-lers,

> 

> During a discussion of paperback covers of Kerouac novels I mentioned a

> local outfit that has a series of postcards (and I beleive posters) of

> old pulp covers.  This collection includes the original cover of "Junky"

> by "Bill Lee"--WSB's first publication.

> 

> For those who asked I am sending along the address.  The operation has

> moved from Palo Alto to Santa Barbara.  Before anyone gets too excited

> let me not that "Junky" is the only beat cover I have seen, tho there

> may be others.  Most of the stuff is wonderfully lurid trash,

> unmemorable then and justly forgotten, but the art is great.

> 

> The address is

> 

> Jeff Luther

> PC Design

> P.O Box 40859

> Santa Barbara, Ca. 93140

> Ph:  805-88409110

> 

> J. Stauffer

 

Now if everyone just orders one of these Junkie postcards and sends them

to me my ponyexpress mailbox will no longer feel anorexic

 

david rhaesa

nita #23

500 east crawford st.

salina, Kansas 67401

 

(please no mail bombs!)

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:32:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: another monday morning

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

RACE --- wrote:

> 

> a twister catches

> all Beat-L posts and deposits

> them in the chirp of a cricket

> Frances spills a cup

> of coffee and it showers

> the cricket

> who runs away

> but returns

> to sing his song

> just another monday morning

> october this time around (i think)

> on my back stoop....

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

come on cricket give us back our posts.

nice little cricket

nice little cricket

of course i understand you.

no that's not a pick up line.

will you just give the fucking machine back its posting CHI?

well yes i probably should wash my mouth out with soap.

what?

you're right.

well that's true too.

yes. yes.  Gregory is the greatest poet

 

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:41:20 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         George <nellie@CCO.NET>

Subject:      Re: black beats

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 03:28 PM 10/6/97 -0400, you wrote:

>> Thanks to the wonders of our education system, I have to do a report

>>on a 'famous' African American

> 

>You don't sound happy about this assignment... how come?

> 

>--

>Adam

> 

> 

 

Oh, I have no problem with the assingment, just the education system

 

Janelle

 

 

        "Strange now to think of you, gone without corsets & eyes,"

                                                        --Allen Ginsberg

 

        "So in America when the sun goes down and I sit on the old broken-down

river pier watching the long, long skies over New Jersey and sense all that

raw land  that rolls in one unbelivble huge bulge over to the West Coast,

and all that road going and all thoes people dreaming in the immensity of

it, and in Iowa i know by now the children must be crying in the land where

they let the children cry, and tonight the stars'll be out, and don't you

know God is Pooh Bear?  the evening star must be drooping and shedding her

spakler dims on the prairie, which is just before the coming of compleate

night that blesses the earth, darkens all rivers, cups the peaks and folds

the final shore in, and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to

anybody besides the forlorn rags of growing old, I think of Dean Moriarty, I

even think of old Dean Moriarty the father we never found, I think of Dean

Moriarty."                      --Jack Kerouac

 

 

 

*********************************************************************

If you would like to submit an artical, drawing, photograph, poem, song,

story, joke, rant, manifesto, or whatever else you have, to 96 MILES TO

PORTLAND, PLEASE contact me.  If you want to subscribe PLEASE contact me, if

you submitt your issue containing the submission is free.  If you would just

like to get an issue then it's $1. By e-mail it's free but you can't seee

the pretty pictures

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:51:28 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      [Fwd: Re: Imploding Text Revival]

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Message-ID: <343C7CBF.1B80@pacbell.net>

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 23:42:07 -0700

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

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To: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

Subject: Re:Imploding Text Revival

References: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.971003111026.22040A-100000@landen.math.uwaterloo.ca>

                            <343C53BC.27EE@sunflower.com> <343C72F2.41CB@pacbell.net>

 <343C71EB.556E@midusa.net>

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David

 

Another contribution for material for your "Imploding Text"--

 

Particularly the last stanza--last Will & Testament

 

Lew Welch, prophetically foreshadowing his disappearance/suicide.

 

SONG OF THE TURKEY BUZZARD

 

                        For Rock Scully

                        who heard it

                        the first

                        time

 

Praises, Tamalpais

        Perfect in Wisdon and Beauty,

She of the Wheeling Birds

 

                I

 

The rider riddle is easy to ask,

but the answer might suprise you.

 

How desperately I wanted Cougar

(I, Leo, etc.)

        brilliant proofs: terrain

color, food, all

nonsense.  All made up.

 

        They were always there, the

      laziest high-flyers, bronze-winged,

                the silent ones

 

"A cunning man always laughs and smiles,

        even if he's desperately hungry,

while a good bird always flies like a vulture,

        even if it is starving."

 

                (Milerapa sang)

 

Over and over again, that sign:

 

I hit one once, with a .22

heard the "flak" and a feather flew off, he

flapped his wings just once and

went on sailing. Bronze

(when seen from above)

 

                as I have seen them, all day sitting

                on a cliff so steep they

                circledd below me, in the up-draft

                passed so close I could see his

                eye.

 

        Praises Tamalpais,

           Perfect in Wisdon amd Beauty,

        She of the Wheeling Birds.

 

        Another time the vision was so clear another saw it too,

Wet, a hatching bird, the shell of the egg streaked with dry scum

exhausted, wet, too weak to move the shriveled wings, fierce

sun-heat, sand.  Twitching, as with elbows (we all have the same

parts). Beak open, neck stretched, gasping for air. O how we

want to live!

 

    "Poor little bird," she said, "he'll never make it."

 

        Praises, Tamalpais,

                Perfect in Wisdon and Beauty,

        She of the Wheeling Birds.

 

        Even so I didn't get it for a long long while.  It finally came

in a trance, a coma, half in sleep and half in fever-mind,  A Turkey

Buzzard, wounded, found by a rock on the mountain.  He wanted

to die alone.  I had never seen one, wild, so close.  When I reached

out, he sidles away, head drooping, as dizzy as I was.  I put my

hand on his wing-shoulders and lifted him.  He tried, feebly, to

tear at my hands with his beak.  He tore my flesh too slightly to

make any difference.  The he tried to heave his great wings. Weak

as he was, I could barely hold him.

 

  A drunken veternarian found a festering bullet in his side,

a .22 that slid between the bronze scales his feathers were.

We removed it and cleansed the wound.

 

  Finally he ate the rotten gophers I trapped and prepared

for him.  Even at first, he drank a lot of water.  My dog seemed

frighted of him

 

        They smell sweet

           meat is dry on their talons

 

        The very opposite of

           death

 

        bird of re-birth

           Buzzard

 

        meat is rotten made

           Sweet again and

 

        lean, unkillable, wing-locked

           soarer til he's but a

 

        speck in the highest sky

            infallible

 

        eye finds Feast! on

            baked concrete

 

        free!

 

        squashed rabbit ripened:

           our good cheese

 

(to keep the highways clean, and bother no Being)

 

        Prqises Gentle Tamalpais

   Perfect in Wisdom and Beauty of the

           sweetes water

         and the soaring birds

 

    great seas at the feet of thy cliffs.

 

 

Hear my last Will & Testament

 

        Among my friends there shall  always be

        one with proper instructions

        for my continuance.

 

                Let no one grieve.

                I shall have used it all up

                used up ever bit of it.

 

                What an extravagance!

                What a relief!

 

        On a marked rock, follwing his orders,

        place my meat.

 

                All care must be taken not to

                frighten the natives of this

                barbarous land, who

                will not let us die, even

                as we wish..

 

        With proper ceremony disembowel what I

        no longer need, that it might more quickly

        rot and tempt

 

        my new form.

 

(as one who hit one with  .22 myself)

J. STauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:59:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         M L Buchenroth <mike@BUCHENROTH.COM>

Organization: No organization here

Subject:      Re: Burroughs piece/ Current posting format/Topcat

Comments: cc: "race@MIDUSA.NET;stauffer@PACBELL.NET;pelliott"@SUNFLOWER.COM

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RACE --- wrote:

> James Stauffer wrote:

> > Patricia,

> > Good to have you back.

> > To all others,  I must confess I am puzzled by the current very slow

> > pulse of this list.  Maybe, as one who has complained when we were

> > getting upwards of 50 posts a day I am paying for my sins, but where > > is

 everybody?

> > I am also puzzled by the reply format which usually indicates the > > list

 address but sometimes the individual address.  Can Bill or > > > > someone

 please elucidate why this changes?

> > Let's fire this sucker up again! James Stauffer

> I'm up.  Have been for 38 hours .... will everybody please tell some

> Beat bedtime stories :

****

Let Topcat here delight you, as persistent as he is, I still encourage

you to double click Topcat so as to exeucute him. Afterwhile you might

even desire to execute him again... or to allow a friend to execute him.

He'll provide plenty of pleasure . . .

 

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--------------38936ACC757--

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 03:31:08 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kinsey and the beats in 1945.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:34 PM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:

>There is a book called "Cad, A Handbook for Heels," which is a book

>dedicated to "Slick cats, hip chicks, exotic sounds, G-men, B-girls, stag

>parties, stogies, Spanish Fly, German Beer..." (isbn #0-922915-09-1)

>It contains a reprint of an article from a 50's men's magazine called

>"BEAT-ing off with Dr. Kinsey" and it gives some detail into what went on

>during the interviews. There's also a very interesting reprint of an

>interview with Chet Baker.   I found my copy at Tower Records.

>Anne Sneddon

> 

> 

>On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

>> Yes, Kinsey interviewed them.  They all hung out at the Angle bar which

was on

>> 8th Avenue in the Times Square area.

>> 

> 

> 

The New Yorker carried a preview recently of a new bio of Kinsey,

which suggested the Kinsey report was cooked to overreport the

amount of homosexuality in America.  It also said Kinsey himself

was a homosexual and masochist.  The scientist had an agenda behind

his "science," according to the new biography.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 05:07:41 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs piece/ Current posting format/Topcat

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Okay, this cat bouncing around my screen is great. He reminds me of NC who

could jump around from place to place yet could in an instant go to sleep.

Or maybe it was JK.  I can't remember how or who was being described, but

it's late hear and I've been up for almost 48 hours now trying to write an

English rport on _Trilby_ - how do you stop this thing?

 

Jon

 

At 02:59 AM 10/9/97 -0500, you wrote:

>RACE --- wrote:

>> James Stauffer wrote:

>> > Patricia,

>> > Good to have you back.

>> > To all others,  I must confess I am puzzled by the current very slow

>> > pulse of this list.  Maybe, as one who has complained when we were

>> > getting upwards of 50 posts a day I am paying for my sins, but where >

> is

> everybody?

>> > I am also puzzled by the reply format which usually indicates the > >

list

> address but sometimes the individual address.  Can Bill or > > > > someone

> please elucidate why this changes?

>> > Let's fire this sucker up again! James Stauffer

>> I'm up.  Have been for 38 hours .... will everybody please tell some

>> Beat bedtime stories :

>****

>Let Topcat here delight you, as persistent as he is, I still encourage

>you to double click Topcat so as to exeucute him. Afterwhile you might

>even desire to execute him again... or to allow a friend to execute him.

>He'll provide plenty of pleasure . . .

> 

>Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\Topcat.exe"

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:53:37 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Caleb Carr

In-Reply-To:  <3437C1E6.779@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

>Subject:      Caleb Carr

>To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>For anyone interested, there's an interesting interview with Caleb Carr

>at the Salon website. Here's where to go:

>http://www.salonmagazine.com/books/int/

> 

>Adrien

> 

thanks adrien,

just ended to read _The Alienist_ by Caleb Carr,

and the book is fine well written. i was surprised 'cuz of Caleb Carr

don't referred to his beat father Lucien Carr in the thanks,

then i visit the web site (u mentioned) and it's very instructive.

The italian translation of _The Alienist_ (L'Alienista,1995)

has on the cover an evocative

photo by Alfred Stieglitz, titled "The Street", from the

Stieglitz's book titled Camera Work (july 1903), great!,

ciao da rinaldo.

 

from the above mentioned web site :

"Carr's father, Lucien Carr, was a seminal figure in the early years of the

Beats. While he wasn't a writer himself, he introduced Jack Kerouac, Allen

Ginsberg and William S. Burroughs to each other, and he remained friends

with all three until their deaths. Lucien Carr was a kind of dark star in

the Beat firmament. In 1944, he murdered a man named David Kammerer, who

was so infatuated with Carr that he followed him to New York from their

hometown of St. Louis. The details of that night are unclear (Kammerer may

have tried to kiss Carr). But Carr later rolled the dead man into the

Hudson River and, with Kerouac's help, hid the man's eyeglasses and the

murder weapon. Kerouac was imprisoned for several days as an accomplice;

Carr was out after two years, having convinced the court that he was

fighting off an unwanted homosexual advance."

-*-

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:40:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Imploding Text Revival

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> David

> 

> Another contribution for material for your "Imploding Text"--

> 

> Particularly the last stanza--last Will & Testament

> 

> Lew Welch, prophetically foreshadowing his disappearance/suicide.

> 

> SONG OF THE TURKEY BUZZARD

> 

>                         For Rock Scully

>                         who heard it

>                         the first

>                         time

> 

> Praises, Tamalpais

>         Perfect in Wisdon and Beauty,

> She of the Wheeling Birds

> 

>                 I

> 

> The rider riddle is easy to ask,

> but the answer might suprise you.

> 

> How desperately I wanted Cougar

> (I, Leo, etc.)

>         brilliant proofs: terrain

> color, food, all

> nonsense.  All made up.

> 

>         They were always there, the

>       laziest high-flyers, bronze-winged,

>                 the silent ones

> 

> "A cunning man always laughs and smiles,

>         even if he's desperately hungry,

> while a good bird always flies like a vulture,

>         even if it is starving."

> 

>                 (Milerapa sang)

> 

> Over and over again, that sign:

> 

> I hit one once, with a .22

> heard the "flak" and a feather flew off, he

> flapped his wings just once and

> went on sailing. Bronze

> (when seen from above)

> 

>                 as I have seen them, all day sitting

>                 on a cliff so steep they

>                 circledd below me, in the up-draft

>                 passed so close I could see his

>                 eye.

> 

>         Praises Tamalpais,

>            Perfect in Wisdon amd Beauty,

>         She of the Wheeling Birds.

> 

>         Another time the vision was so clear another saw it too,

> Wet, a hatching bird, the shell of the egg streaked with dry scum

> exhausted, wet, too weak to move the shriveled wings, fierce

> sun-heat, sand.  Twitching, as with elbows (we all have the same

> parts). Beak open, neck stretched, gasping for air. O how we

> want to live!

> 

>     "Poor little bird," she said, "he'll never make it."

> 

>         Praises, Tamalpais,

>                 Perfect in Wisdon and Beauty,

>         She of the Wheeling Birds.

> 

>         Even so I didn't get it for a long long while.  It finally came

> in a trance, a coma, half in sleep and half in fever-mind,  A Turkey

> Buzzard, wounded, found by a rock on the mountain.  He wanted

> to die alone.  I had never seen one, wild, so close.  When I reached

> out, he sidles away, head drooping, as dizzy as I was.  I put my

> hand on his wing-shoulders and lifted him.  He tried, feebly, to

> tear at my hands with his beak.  He tore my flesh too slightly to

> make any difference.  The he tried to heave his great wings. Weak

> as he was, I could barely hold him.

> 

>   A drunken veternarian found a festering bullet in his side,

> a .22 that slid between the bronze scales his feathers were.

> We removed it and cleansed the wound.

> 

>   Finally he ate the rotten gophers I trapped and prepared

> for him.  Even at first, he drank a lot of water.  My dog seemed

> frighted of him

> 

>         They smell sweet

>            meat is dry on their talons

> 

>         The very opposite of

>            death

> 

>         bird of re-birth

>            Buzzard

> 

>         meat is rotten made

>            Sweet again and

> 

>         lean, unkillable, wing-locked

>            soarer til he's but a

> 

>         speck in the highest sky

>             infallible

> 

>         eye finds Feast! on

>             baked concrete

> 

>         free!

> 

>         squashed rabbit ripened:

>            our good cheese

> 

> (to keep the highways clean, and bother no Being)

> 

>         Prqises Gentle Tamalpais

>    Perfect in Wisdom and Beauty of the

>            sweetes water

>          and the soaring birds

> 

>     great seas at the feet of thy cliffs.

> 

> Hear my last Will & Testament

> 

>         Among my friends there shall  always be

>         one with proper instructions

>         for my continuance.

> 

>                 Let no one grieve.

>                 I shall have used it all up

>                 used up ever bit of it.

> 

>                 What an extravagance!

>                 What a relief!

> 

>         On a marked rock, follwing his orders,

>         place my meat.

> 

>                 All care must be taken not to

>                 frighten the natives of this

>                 barbarous land, who

>                 will not let us die, even

>                 as we wish..

> 

>         With proper ceremony disembowel what I

>         no longer need, that it might more quickly

>         rot and tempt

> 

>         my new form.

> 

> (as one who hit one with  .22 myself)

> J. STauffer

 

thanks a lot James.

 

"In a little hilltop village

they gambled for my clothes

I bargained for salvation

And they gave me a lethal dose

I offered up my innocence

And got repaid with scorn

'Come in she said i'll give you

Shelter from the Storm"

        -- Robert Zimmerman

 

I'd pretty much figured this thread was flushed down the terminal sewer

-- hope somebody else will join the fray.  Bentz????

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:28:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs piece/ Current posting format/Topcat

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jonathan Pickle wrote:

> 

> Okay, this cat bouncing around my screen is great.

 

I'm a cricket not a cat!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:42:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dana's request for SF Ideas

 

Dear Dana and Beat List,

 

Here are some interesting places to

visit while in San Francisco, and a short review

of the Six Gallery Reading (held 42 years later)

and what about Chuck...

 

Starting at City Lights 261 Columbus @ Broadway

Cool old posters and broadsides,

huge selection of poetry...

(By the way Beat Literature is upstairs

Bukowski has his own section down stairs)

 

Just across Kerouac Alley

at 255 Columbus is Vesuvio's

On the wall to the left as you walk

in are photos of poets. Dylan Thomas

once drank here after a reading.

A hang out for beat writers, Kerouac

once spent the night getting drunk and

calling Henry Miller, (who he was supposed

to be on his way to see) every hour or so

telling him he was on the way, they never met.

 

Across Columbus @ #12 Adler Alley

is Spec's still a poet hang out

with interesting memorabilia

from the beat era on the walls.

 

Walk up Columbus turn right on Broadway

walk two blocks turn left

you will find at 1010 Montgomery

the apt. building where Ginsberg

lived from Feb 3rd to Sep 6th 1955

and wrote "Howl". Light a candle, spin around

look for the best minds of your...

 

Go back down Broadway to Columbus

turn right you will find Green St.

Go a half a block to

the corner of Green and Vallejo

at 605 Vallejo is Caffe Trieste

You can still find poets here,

Ask around for Jack Hershman,

a big burly madman always ready

to talk poems and politics.

 

Continue down Green Street

576 Green was the sight of the

Cellar where Rexroth and Ferlingetthi

recorded with jazz musicians.

548 Green Gino and Carlo's

a Jack Spicer hangout.

 

1353 Grant and Green

 now the Lost and Found

Saloon in the 50's was the

Coffee Gallery home of many poetry

readings.

 

Continue down Green to Union, turn right

go up to the top of the hill

At the Corner of Union and

Montgomery in an old wood frame

building Gregory Corso lived

in the 70's. Turn left on Montgomery

go a block and a

half here you find the Filbert

Steps, turn right and walk down

into turn of the century San Francisco

a neighborhood accessible only

by a steep wooden stair case,

half way down is the Filbert

Garden, yesterday I saw a

flock of wild parrots green with bright

red heads, chased by a hawk.

Walk back up the Stairs

and continue up to Coit Tower

Here you will find sweeping views of the Bay.

Inside Coit Tower are murals

painted in the 30's, see

if you can find the book by

Rexroth on the book case

in one of the murals.

Here is the opening of

Corso's poem Ode to

Coit Tower from Gasoline.

"O anti-verdurous phallic were't

not for your pouring height looming in tears

like a sick tree or your ever-gaudy-comfort

jabbing your city's much wrinkled sky you's

seem an absurd Babel squatting before mortal millions....

>From here you are on your own.

 

There is one more address you might like to check out

(20 blocks or so from North Beach)

3119 Filmore the sight of the Six Gallery

where Ginsberg first read "Howl"

Last night there was a reading held there

as commemoration of the Gallery and as a

of memorial to Ginsberg.

 

The organizer/poet Jack Foley, has come into possession

a post card that Ginsberg made to announce the

reading with the Date of Oct. 7th, 1955. Many books

about the beats have other dates for the event,

it appears that in finding the post card, Jack has the

scoop.

 

The sight is now the home of "Silk Roads"

which sells carpets. Stacks of flying carpets with little buddhas

and Hindu statues filling the shelves, in the front window

a collection of smooth phallic stones (Lingums Sp?)

Da Mayor declared it "Six Gallery Day" in San Francisco,

 

Marc Olmsted, read a poem of hearing of Ginsberg's death

while on a meditation retreat was very moving,

especially sweet was the part where Ginsberg, when

calling to tell Marc he was dying told him

how good Marc had been to him over the years,

fantastic on his death bed the poet remembers to

thank his students for their kindness.

 

Also intriguing was Neeli Cherkovski, he had just returned

from a reading in Mexico City. He turned his poem about

a museum he visited into an exploration of his soul, his

mind becoming the rooms of the museum and his

thoughts the artifacts.

 

The evening closed with the true beat style of Q.R. Hand

Who bopped and wailed with his partner Reginald Lockett.

Q.R. looks and sound like he stepped out of the 50's.

He can even pull off wearing sandels.

 

Neeli wrote "Hank" the biography

of Bukowski, when I asked him if he thought Bukowski

was a beat writer, He laughed and said, "Bukowski, hated

the beats, although he was the same age, he started writing

poetry much later, his themes were different. No he is definitely

not beat." Then Joyce Jenkins of Poetry Flash said, "Bukowski

wasn't beat, he was postal!"

 

There was for me a huge shadow over the event

40 years later, the poets still trying to measure

up to that night so long ago....

 

love and flowers in my hair,

Gary Mex Glazner

85 Stanyan Street and other Sorrows

P.S. Addresses, and beat stories are from Don Herron's

The Literary World of San Francisco

published by City Lights Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:57:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs piece/ Current posting format/Topcat

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jonathan Pickle wrote:

> 

> Okay, this cat bouncing around my screen is great. He reminds me of NC who

> could jump around from place to place yet could in an instant go to sleep.

 

sleep is just a state of mind really now isn't it.  I'm no NC though i

have about fifteen wonderful relatives in the Denver area and somewhere

in Golden in a backyard is the grave of Uncle Jake's old dog.

 

and i've been to Ogden.  Ogden Utah not the Ogden theatre on Colfax in

Denver.  Well actually my friend John took me to see George Clinton live

at the Ogden theatre last December and i gave him all my WSB books for

Hannukah(sp?).  And i have a great big friend in Odgen named Bear.  Last

time i was in Ogden i flew a couple of kids to the DSR-TKA National

Debate tournament at Weber State.  Beautiful view of the mountains

walking out of the Weber library.  I remember that i found a GREAT GREAT

used record store there somewhere.  Now if i just had a turntable

<grin>  oh ... what was i saying ... maybe it's time for a nap <yup>

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:00:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Dana's request for SF Ideas

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Gary Mex Glazner wrote:

> 

> Dear Dana and Beat List,

> 

> Here are some interesting places to

> visit while in San Francisco, and a short review

> of the Six Gallery Reading (held 42 years later)

> and what about Chuck...

> 

> Starting at City Lights 261 Columbus @ Broadway

> Cool old posters and broadsides,

> huge selection of poetry...

> (By the way Beat Literature is upstairs

> Bukowski has his own section down stairs)

> 

> Just across Kerouac Alley

> at 255 Columbus is Vesuvio's

> On the wall to the left as you walk

> in are photos of poets. Dylan Thomas

> once drank here after a reading.

> A hang out for beat writers, Kerouac

> once spent the night getting drunk and

> calling Henry Miller, (who he was supposed

> to be on his way to see) every hour or so

> telling him he was on the way, they never met.

> 

> Across Columbus @ #12 Adler Alley

> is Spec's still a poet hang out

> with interesting memorabilia

> from the beat era on the walls.

> 

> Walk up Columbus turn right on Broadway

> walk two blocks turn left

> you will find at 1010 Montgomery

> the apt. building where Ginsberg

> lived from Feb 3rd to Sep 6th 1955

> and wrote "Howl". Light a candle, spin around

> look for the best minds of your...

> 

> Go back down Broadway to Columbus

> turn right you will find Green St.

> Go a half a block to

> the corner of Green and Vallejo

> at 605 Vallejo is Caffe Trieste

> You can still find poets here,

> Ask around for Jack Hershman,

> a big burly madman always ready

> to talk poems and politics.

> 

> Continue down Green Street

> 576 Green was the sight of the

> Cellar where Rexroth and Ferlingetthi

> recorded with jazz musicians.

> 548 Green Gino and Carlo's

> a Jack Spicer hangout.

> 

> 1353 Grant and Green

>  now the Lost and Found

> Saloon in the 50's was the

> Coffee Gallery home of many poetry

> readings.

> 

> Continue down Green to Union, turn right

> go up to the top of the hill

> At the Corner of Union and

> Montgomery in an old wood frame

> building Gregory Corso lived

> in the 70's. Turn left on Montgomery

> go a block and a

> half here you find the Filbert

> Steps, turn right and walk down

> into turn of the century San Francisco

> a neighborhood accessible only

> by a steep wooden stair case,

> half way down is the Filbert

> Garden, yesterday I saw a

> flock of wild parrots green with bright

> red heads, chased by a hawk.

> Walk back up the Stairs

> and continue up to Coit Tower

> Here you will find sweeping views of the Bay.

> Inside Coit Tower are murals

> painted in the 30's, see

> if you can find the book by

> Rexroth on the book case

> in one of the murals.

> Here is the opening of

> Corso's poem Ode to

> Coit Tower from Gasoline.

> "O anti-verdurous phallic were't

> not for your pouring height looming in tears

> like a sick tree or your ever-gaudy-comfort

> jabbing your city's much wrinkled sky you's

> seem an absurd Babel squatting before mortal millions....

> >From here you are on your own.

> 

> There is one more address you might like to check out

> (20 blocks or so from North Beach)

> 3119 Filmore the sight of the Six Gallery

> where Ginsberg first read "Howl"

> Last night there was a reading held there

> as commemoration of the Gallery and as a

> of memorial to Ginsberg.

> 

> The organizer/poet Jack Foley, has come into possession

> a post card that Ginsberg made to announce the

> reading with the Date of Oct. 7th, 1955. Many books

> about the beats have other dates for the event,

> it appears that in finding the post card, Jack has the

> scoop.

> 

> The sight is now the home of "Silk Roads"

> which sells carpets. Stacks of flying carpets with little buddhas

> and Hindu statues filling the shelves, in the front window

> a collection of smooth phallic stones (Lingums Sp?)

> Da Mayor declared it "Six Gallery Day" in San Francisco,

> 

> Marc Olmsted, read a poem of hearing of Ginsberg's death

> while on a meditation retreat was very moving,

> especially sweet was the part where Ginsberg, when

> calling to tell Marc he was dying told him

> how good Marc had been to him over the years,

> fantastic on his death bed the poet remembers to

> thank his students for their kindness.

> 

> Also intriguing was Neeli Cherkovski, he had just returned

> from a reading in Mexico City. He turned his poem about

> a museum he visited into an exploration of his soul, his

> mind becoming the rooms of the museum and his

> thoughts the artifacts.

> 

> The evening closed with the true beat style of Q.R. Hand

> Who bopped and wailed with his partner Reginald Lockett.

> Q.R. looks and sound like he stepped out of the 50's.

> He can even pull off wearing sandels.

> 

> Neeli wrote "Hank" the biography

> of Bukowski, when I asked him if he thought Bukowski

> was a beat writer, He laughed and said, "Bukowski, hated

> the beats, although he was the same age, he started writing

> poetry much later, his themes were different. No he is definitely

> not beat." Then Joyce Jenkins of Poetry Flash said, "Bukowski

> wasn't beat, he was postal!"

> 

> There was for me a huge shadow over the event

> 40 years later, the poets still trying to measure

> up to that night so long ago....

> 

> love and flowers in my hair,

> Gary Mex Glazner

> 85 Stanyan Street and other Sorrows

> P.S. Addresses, and beat stories are from Don Herron's

> The Literary World of San Francisco

> published by City Lights Books

 

WOW ... San Francisco sounds like a great place.  Was there when i was

six or so and all i remember are steep steep streets and a mime at the

Fisherman's Wharf.

 

But are these places real???  I'm skeptical of it all!!!  PROVE these

things exist to someone who lives in OZ.

 

(anybody wishing to send fun photographs my way -- feel free)

 

david rhaesa

nita #23

500 east crawford st.

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:35:03 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Let's Discuss Something

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Let me take a stab at getting this list back into discussion mode.  We

have not yet discussed Howl, something we started talking about a few

months ago.

 

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving

        hysterical naked

dragging themselves through the Negro streets at dawn looking for an

        angry fix,

angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the

        starry dynamo in the machinery of night,

who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat up smoking in the

        supernatural darkness of cold-water flats floating across the

        tops of cities contemplating jazz,

who bared their brains to Heaven under the El and saw Mohammedan

        angels staggering on tenement roofs illuminated

who passes through universities with radient cool eyes hallucinating

        Arkansas and Blake-light tragedy among the scholars of money and

        war

 

Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first time I

read those beginning lines twenty years ago.  There is something not only

about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that

makes it so almost explosive.  In my mind, the best beginning of any

poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,

aren't you) And where are we now in terms of not only the literal madness

of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,

the madness of America as a culture?  Is there any one of you who cannot

identify with Howl?  Perhaps the scholars of war are now the scholars of

money.  Perhaps the halluncinating has now become our natural state, our

consciousness altered by technology more than drugs.  I would say that in

the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the

state of America and the state of our individual lives.  Are we still not

burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry

dynamo in the machinery of night?  Isn't that what draws us to the beats?

DC

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:38:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

Subject:      SF

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Thanks to you all who replied regarding my request for San Fransisco

ideas, I recieved quite a response.  I should have no problem finding

things to do for five days :)

 

Dana

 

PS.  dbr--hey man *calm* *down*!

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:41:44 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Beat-l traffic

 

Every list has its ebb and flow.  Hang around, things will pick up again.  I pl

an a long post on my trip to Lowell.  Anyone else have any comments on the week

end?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:54:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      And why did he leave salina out of the Vortex??(Re: Let's Discuss

              Something)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

McPherson is twenty minutes south of me and Abilene twenty miles east of

me.  There are a few backroads that can take you through from McPherson

to Abilene and miss Salina.  You'd get to see Canton and Galva and their

combined high school Canton/Galva (mcpherson's high school mascot is

appropriately the BULLDOGS by the way).  But most of the backroads

unless you know them well will miss Abilene and you'll leave McPherson

and wind around until you hit Junction City or if you turn a bit East it

would be Council Grove a wonderfully historicaly place.

 

 

Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> Let me take a stab at getting this list back into discussion mode.  We

> have not yet discussed Howl, something we started talking about a few

> months ago.

> 

> I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving

>         hysterical naked

 

my experience in the 90s at the Fransican Hilton and other "special

places" would not be the "best minds" but the biggest hearts and instead

of hysterical naked it would be "chi disintegrated"....

> 

> Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first time I

> read those beginning lines twenty years ago.  There is something not only

> about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that

> makes it so almost explosive.  In my mind, the best beginning of any

> poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,

> aren't you)

 

i'll disagree.  Wonderful wonderful but not more than an F-4 tornado.

Certainly not a f-5 finger of god twister :)

 

 

 And where are we now in terms of not only the literal madness

 

coming along long way i would say...schizophrenic neighbor who would

have been lobotomized before just walked upstairs to check her mailbox

(which was empty of course -- but one can always hope can't we) she was

dressed in BRIGHT BRIGHT purple and her hair was wet.  I believe it was

the first time she had washed it in three months.  Her name is GLORIA

and i used to live next door to her and hear her screaming at people who

weren't in her apartment.  The only time i got worried and called the

landlord was when i DIDN"T HEAR her screaming for three days.  I

suddenly became terribly afraid that Gloria had decided to end it all.

Fortunately she was at the STATE hospital getting some help.... (i think

U2 should dedicate their version of GLORIA to her BTW :))  [Listening to

Bob ... singing unplugged "How does it feel to be on your own with no

direction home like a complete unknown like a rolling stone.]  Goodness

what a statement about madness today.  Deinstitutionalization in mental

health was a wonderfu "liberal" idea but "nobody taught them how to live

out on the street" and their stones are often not rolling but rather

stopped solid in isolation and loneliness :)

 

> of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,

> the madness of America as a culture?

 

Have been reading a book lately by a dude named James and have been

quite obsessed for sometime now with a dead character named RUDY.  Today

i was looking at a particular quotation and said My doesn't RUDY just

represent America a bit too well????

 

 

  Is there any one of you who cannot

> identify with Howl?

 

It is a bit bitter for me.

 

Perhaps the scholars of war are now the scholars of

> money.  Perhaps the halluncinating has now become our natural state, our

> consciousness altered by technology more than drugs.  I would say that in

> the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the

> state of America and the state of our individual lives.  Are we still not

> burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry

> dynamo in the machinery of night?  Isn't that what draws us to the beats?

> DC

> DC

 

Excellent questions and i believe that you may have gotten more than one

little stone rolling along ....

 

how does it feel

to be out on your own

no direction home

like a compleat unknown

like a rolling stone

 

understanding, love and peace (and in that ORDER!)

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:55:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Let's Discuss Something

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> Let me take a stab at getting this list back into discussion mode.  We

> have not yet discussed Howl, something we started talking about a few

> months ago.

> 

> I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving

>         hysterical naked

> dragging themselves through the Negro streets at dawn looking for an

>         angry fix,

> angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the

>         starry dynamo in the machinery of night,

> who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat up smoking in the

>         supernatural darkness of cold-water flats floating across the

>         tops of cities contemplating jazz,

> who bared their brains to Heaven under the El and saw Mohammedan

>         angels staggering on tenement roofs illuminated

> who passes through universities with radient cool eyes hallucinating

>         Arkansas and Blake-light tragedy among the scholars of money and

>         war

> 

> Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first time I

> read those beginning lines twenty years ago.  There is something not only

> about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that

> makes it so almost explosive.  In my mind, the best beginning of any

> poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,

> aren't you) And where are we now in terms of not only the literal madness

> of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,

> the madness of America as a culture?  Is there any one of you who cannot

> identify with Howl?  Perhaps the scholars of war are now the scholars of

> money.  Perhaps the halluncinating has now become our natural state, our

> consciousness altered by technology more than drugs.  I would say that in

> the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the

> state of America and the state of our individual lives.  Are we still not

> burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry

> dynamo in the machinery of night?  Isn't that what draws us to the beats?

> DC

> DC

 

WOW WOW WOW  GREAT GREAT POST!!!

 

Could you give brief biographical information on that opening section in

a few days?  Who are these best minds and why were they the best?  What

is meant exactly by DESTROYED! ????

 

take care,

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:06:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      THE STATE OF MADDNESS

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

 And where are we now in terms of not only the literal madness

of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,

the madness of America as a culture?

 

America seems to have always prided itself on its maddness.  Ceaselessly we

drone out life for the sake of the mind manipulation of the media and

politicians who are, seemingly, under no obligation to be accountable.

While America as an idea has amazing potential, it is being diminished by

the consuming virus of complacency with mainstream culture.  The times have

changed relatively little since the day Allen Ginsberg scribbled these

lines.  A few laws have changed and a few people have died in the fight,

but all in all the hysteria of life goes on.  That is why Howl is such a

timeless work - sadly enough it must always be thought to be relavant.  I

by no means think it is less valuble, but the rage against contemporary

society that Howl symbolizes will always be there.  The Beats were tired of

society, so they dropped out and railed against it.  It will be done again

as it has been, and will be done for thousands of years ad infinitum.  The

state of American maddness is the same - our image of it has only slightly

changed.

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:30:45 -0500

Reply-To:     vorys@concentric.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first time I

> read those beginning lines twenty years ago.  There is something not only

> about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that

> makes it so almost explosive.  In my mind, the best beginning of any

> poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,

> aren't you) And where are we now in terms of not only the literal madness

> of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,

> the madness of America as a culture?  Is there any one of you who cannot

> identify with Howl?  Perhaps the scholars of war are now the scholars of

> money.  Perhaps the halluncinating has now become our natural state, our

> consciousness altered by technology more than drugs.  I would say that in

> the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the

> state of America and the state of our individual lives.  Are we still not

> burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry

> dynamo in the machinery of night?  Isn't that what draws us to the beats?

> DC

> DC

 

Carl Solomon was not "mad". He and Ginsberg would have been offended by

the term. Allen always felt a little guilty over hanging that burden on

Carl. Carl Solomon and my wife had a steady correspondence until his

death. He was lucid and funny to the end. ie. Ginsberg to hospitalized

Carl Solomon ..."How are you?"  Carl responded ... " I'm dying but I

have life insurance."

 

Re:Howl ... It's a wonderful poem and period piece. The original beats

have transcended it by living through it.

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:53:02 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

In-Reply-To:  <343D14C5.4813@concentric.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

just a few thougt s and a way of getting discussion going and what not -

after i rcently exposed my girlfreind to "howl" and ginsberg for the first

time she was uncertain how to take it - she knew she was attracted to the

poetics and the cadence (first played her ginsberg reading w/ kronos

quartet) but she had a few problems esp. with the lines about the "one

eyed shrew" and what seemed to her a mysiginist attitude towards women.

(she didnt know that ginsberg was gay & that in fact most of the beat

authors were gay/bisexual or at least rather tolerant - not to bring up

the "was kerouac gay" arguement tho...) the more she & i listened the more

she

realized that the poem didnt really seem to be talking to women at all. it

seemed to be more of an address to men (like whitman was an address to

men??) & the pressures of performance and expectations that are placed

upon society (& esp. male society in 1950's) as seem by an

intellectual, sexual outsider (altho saying that wouldnt elsie - that was

her name, right? friend of joyce johnson's - be considered one of the

"best minds" in ginsberg's opinion - he didnt preface and introduce her

poems to city lights journal at one point...)

        and as for the scholars of war and the scholars of money - i think

that come 1955 and the rise of the American world-state (USA as major

world power - one could argue - only was solidified after the atomic bomb

and the creation of the " us and them" attitude of late 40's early 50's,

as well as the strength of the american economy post WWII, due to efforts

to retain levels of warproduction and the creation of the consumer state )

couldnt you say that the idea of seperating the "scholars of war" and the

"scholars of money" rather futile? they are one & the same in post WII US

culture, are the not? (for instance - the creation of the "disposable car"

thatis, a car with models that change after a few yrs and the introduction

of various colours, etc & the importnace of keeping up to date - was a

conscious effort by the manufacturers and the US government to keep the

economy at the same levels of production as they were during the war, thus

providing jobs & security for both returning vets as well as governmental

contractors...) so is there really a difference b/t war & money?

hallucination & reality?

but i suppose i digress...

yrs

derek

 

 On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, vorys wrote:

> Diane Carter wrote:

> > Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first time I

> > read those beginning lines twenty years ago.  There is something not only

> > about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that

> > makes it so almost explosive.  In my mind, the best beginning of any

> > poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,

> > aren't you) And where are we now in terms of not only the literal madness

> > of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,

> > the madness of America as a culture?  Is there any one of you who cannot

> > identify with Howl?  Perhaps the scholars of war are now the scholars of

> > money.  Perhaps the halluncinating has now become our natural state, our

> > consciousness altered by technology more than drugs.  I would say that in

> > the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the

> > state of America and the state of our individual lives.  Are we still not

> > burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry

> > dynamo in the machinery of night?  Isn't that what draws us to the beats?

> > DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:29:57 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      u2haikuEEE-E! THERE IS A MOUSE IN THE KITCHEN!!

In-Reply-To:  <3437C1E6.779@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        1th

        lift the

        ring to

        can edge

 

        2th

        pull UP

        ring

 

        IT WAS

        GREAT,

        PERFEC

        T MISS

        ION AC

        COMPLI

        SHED.

        GREAT.

        PERF

 

 

-

rinaldo

9 oct 97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:23:47 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      "The Long Beach Freeway"

In-Reply-To:  <3437C1E6.779@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        The Long Beach Freeway          by Gerald Locklin

        (after MacLeish)

 

        And here upon this brazen hill

        this hill above the aimless lights

        I watch the always going home

        the going west into the night

 

        the going towards two-bedroom flats

        the going toward the blinding creen

        the alcohol the marriage debts

        the insane hours in between

 

        the painful clock the cereal

        the always sweating late to work

        the water cooler pressured meal

        the longing for the lonely dark

 

        the lonely driving through the hills

        the rock and roll the news the sports

        the somnolence of lower speeds

        the solitary cigarettes

 

        and here upon a brazen hill

        narcotic with the speed of light

        I watch the always going home

        the going west into the night

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:46:50 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: "The Long Beach Freeway"

 

Rinaldo - this is great what's the name of the book this is in?  ciao, sherri

(e come sta?)

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Rinaldo Rasa

Sent:   Thursday, October 09, 1997 2:23 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        "The Long Beach Freeway"

 

        The Long Beach Freeway          by Gerald Locklin

        (after MacLeish)

 

        And here upon this brazen hill

        this hill above the aimless lights

        I watch the always going home

        the going west into the night

 

        the going towards two-bedroom flats

        the going toward the blinding creen

        the alcohol the marriage debts

        the insane hours in between

 

        the painful clock the cereal

        the always sweating late to work

        the water cooler pressured meal

        the longing for the lonely dark

 

        the lonely driving through the hills

        the rock and roll the news the sports

        the somnolence of lower speeds

        the solitary cigarettes

 

        and here upon a brazen hill

        narcotic with the speed of light

        I watch the always going home

        the going west into the night

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:48:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: "The Long Beach Freeway"

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971009222347.0068892c@pop.gpnet.it>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

>         The Long Beach Freeway          by Gerald Locklin

>         (after MacLeish)

 

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

 

Classic and modern on one tether - like Cocteau's films. :)

 

(I'd chuck "somnolence" -

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:57:04 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: "The Long Beach Freeway"

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.BSI.3.95.971009134737.27473A-100000@global.california.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Michael R. Brown wrote:

 

> On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> >         The Long Beach Freeway          by Gerald Locklin

> >         (after MacLeish)

 

> Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

 

> Classic and modern on one tether - like Cocteau's films. :)

 

> (I'd chuck "somnolence" -

 

Ack! Line noise pressed "send" before I wanted. In place of "somnolence"

a simpler quieter word: sleep, sleepy, dream.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:19:13 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Let's Discuss Something

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Diane does it again

 

leon

 

snip

>Diane Carter wrote:

>> 

>> Let me take a stab at getting this list back into discussion mode.

>> Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first

time I

>> read those beginning lines twenty years ago.  There is something not

only

>> about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that

>> makes it so almost explosive.  In my mind, the best beginning of any

>> poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,

>> aren't you) And where are we now in terms of not only the literal

madness

>> of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined

us,

>> the madness of America as a culture?  Is there any one of you who

cannot

>> identify with Howl?  Perhaps the scholars of war are now the scholars

of

>> money.  Perhaps the halluncinating has now become our natural state,

our

>> consciousness altered by technology more than drugs.  I would say

that in

>> the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the

>> state of America and the state of our individual lives.  Are we still

not

>> burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry

>> dynamo in the machinery of night?  Isn't that what draws us to the

beats?

>> DC

>> DC

> 

>WOW WOW WOW  GREAT GREAT POST!!!

> 

>Could you give brief biographical information on that opening section

in

>a few days?  Who are these best minds and why were they the best?  What

>is meant exactly by DESTROYED! ????

> 

>take care,

>david

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:07:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      Locklin poem

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

What a treat to read the Long Beach Freeway poem by Gerald Locklin.  The strange

thing is that I had an American Lit. class from Locklin in 1966 at Long Beach

State and I haven't heard anything about/from him since.  I greatly enjoy his

teaching and his poetry.  Donald Winters

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:25:01 -0500

Reply-To:     drilit@flash.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Darrell Byars <drilit@FLASH.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> 

> just a few thougt s and a way of getting discussion going and what not -

> after i rcently exposed my girlfreind to "howl" and ginsberg for the first

> time she was uncertain how to take it - she knew she was attracted to the

> poetics and the cadence (first played her ginsberg reading w/ kronos

> quartet) but she had a few problems esp. with the lines about the "one

> eyed shrew" and what seemed to her a mysiginist attitude towards women.

> (she didnt know that ginsberg was gay & that in fact most of the beat

> authors were gay/bisexual or at least rather tolerant - not to bring up

> the "was kerouac gay" arguement tho...) the more she & i listened the more

> she

> realized that the poem didnt really seem to be talking to women at all. it

> seemed to be more of an address to men (like whitman was an address to

> men??) & the pressures of performance and expectations that are placed

> upon society (& esp. male society in 1950's) as seem by an

> intellectual, sexual outsider (altho saying that wouldnt elsie - that was

> her name, right? friend of joyce johnson's - be considered one of the

> "best minds" in ginsberg's opinion - he didnt preface and introduce her

> poems to city lights journal at one point...)

>         and as for the scholars of war and the scholars of money - i think

> that come 1955 and the rise of the American world-state (USA as major

> world power - one could argue - only was solidified after the atomic bomb

> and the creation of the " us and them" attitude of late 40's early 50's,

> as well as the strength of the american economy post WWII, due to efforts

> to retain levels of warproduction and the creation of the consumer state )

> couldnt you say that the idea of seperating the "scholars of war" and the

> "scholars of money" rather futile? they are one & the same in post WII US

> culture, are the not? (for instance - the creation of the "disposable car"

> thatis, a car with models that change after a few yrs and the introduction

> of various colours, etc & the importnace of keeping up to date - was a

> conscious effort by the manufacturers and the US government to keep the

> economy at the same levels of production as they were during the war, thus

> providing jobs & security for both returning vets as well as governmental

> contractors...) so is there really a difference b/t war & money?

> hallucination & reality?

> but i suppose i digress...

> yrs

> derek

> 

>  On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, vorys wrote:

> > Diane Carter wrote:

> > > Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first time I

> > > read those beginning lines twenty years ago.  There is something not only

> > > about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that

> > > makes it so almost explosive.  In my mind, the best beginning of any

> > > poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,

> > > aren't you) And where are we now in terms of not only the literal madness

> > > of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,

> > > the madness of America as a culture?  Is there any one of you who cannot

> > > identify with Howl?  Perhaps the scholars of war are now the scholars of

> > > money.  Perhaps the halluncinating has now become our natural state, our

> > > consciousness altered by technology more than drugs.  I would say that in

> > > the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the

> > > state of America and the state of our individual lives.  Are we still not

> > > burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry

> > > dynamo in the machinery of night?  Isn't that what draws us to the beats?

> > > DC

Hello. My name is Karen, and I'm new to the list.

I was drawn to the 1994 Naropa Institute's "Beats and Rebel Angels" 20th

anniversary celebration by the starry dynamo in the machinery of

night... I left there horribly disillussioned regarding the "scholars of

money." The fact that the Beats are now institutionalized contradicts

everything they stood for-- maddness? Anyone?

Yours,

Karen Eblen

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:40:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

Comments: To: Darrell Byars <drilit@flash.net>

In-Reply-To:  <343D59BD.2A37@flash.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Darrell Byars wrote:

 

> Hello. My name is Karen, and I'm new to the list.

> I was drawn to the 1994 Naropa Institute's "Beats and Rebel Angels" 20th

> anniversary celebration by the starry dynamo in the machinery of

> night... I left there horribly disillussioned regarding the "scholars of

> money." The fact that the Beats are now institutionalized contradicts

> everything they stood for-- maddness? Anyone?

> Yours,

> Karen Eblen

 

Karen!

 

I too made the trek to Naropa's summer '94 bash, and had a similar

experience. I was very angry, actually got quite mad at old man Ginsberg for

some of his actions early that week, was very disillusioned but subsequently

got over it (and now subscribe to this List). What was it about that

experience that turned you off, anything specific?

 

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:16:08 -0500

Reply-To:     drilit@flash.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Darrell Byars <drilit@FLASH.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Michael Stutz wrote:

> 

> On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Darrell Byars wrote:

> 

> > Hello. My name is Karen, and I'm new to the list.

> > I was drawn to the 1994 Naropa Institute's "Beats and Rebel Angels" 20th

> > anniversary celebration by the starry dynamo in the machinery of

> > night... I left there horribly disillussioned regarding the "scholars of

> > money." The fact that the Beats are now institutionalized contradicts

> > everything they stood for-- maddness? Anyone?

> > Yours,

> > Karen Eblen

> 

> Karen!

> 

> I too made the trek to Naropa's summer '94 bash, and had a similar

> experience. I was very angry, actually got quite mad at old man Ginsberg for

> some of his actions early that week, was very disillusioned but subsequently

> got over it (and now subscribe to this List). What was it about that

> experience that turned you off, anything specific?

> 

> email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

> <http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

>                      as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

>                      WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

Hi Michael,

 

The event did inspire me, and I'll never forget it. But, I was irritated

when I learned from a Naropa student that financial aid for less than

wealthy students had been cut off at Naropa; leaving less fortunate

students in the lurch with incomplete MFA's. I was shocked by the

pompous aire that most of the patrons exhibited, (I was a volunteer

seating folks in the theatre, camping behind the school in a VW bus). I

felt out of place.  But my biggest let down was the PC reaction to

Kesey's "Twister," (I thought he made a point by not making one), and

the talk of boycotting his performance because people were offended by

him.

 

The good things-- I found Ginsberg (at least) approachable, and a kind

teacher. Snyder was kind enough. I was able to have a real conversation

with Ferlinghetti and Kesey. They each signed a book for me.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:02:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: yellow things not on subject

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

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Good for you. so sweet. do you boil it or nuke it.  I like nuking.

 

Leaving Texas. I chased the edge of the same giant black cloud straight

south through tex and okla. Ahead of me two huge seperate fatality

accidents in the first hundred miles, draped bodies, accordian cars and

ambulances coming from two directions, and miles and miles of stopped

dead traffic. I saw the price of the wet highway and wished i was on an

el. But in oklahoma loved the red river valley, and turner falls, and

thought of a story plot, a woman living in Rundeep Oklahoma, right

outside of still water.  who starts as a wild roaming youth  wishing to

be free, to travel and to be alone, who comes to a point of knowing that

a freedom also comes from wanting to be with people, having someone and

to have people to visit on the way.

 Through tex i played "greaty country artists do gospel" then spare ass

annie, Austen  symphony choir "American Spirit" do da, and ww II tunes.

Played johnny cash, bing crosby, and nat king cole tapes in Oklahoma.

In Kansas turning right at wichita, (considered straight to salina and

then right but literally saw the giant cloud speeding south so i left

the thunder to say hello to you, race, played  Simpsons do the Blues.

loved it, played it twice. into Lawence on local gospel station. I am

exhausted. what a time

Met your friend young william, talked at him, i came on a bit strong, he

said he would try to send you a disc of his disertation. He thought he

had your address.

        I spent most of my time in purgatory. my son was very ill, surgery a

success.  As he got better he treated me as a slave, and was a bully,

(sexist remark warning) some men are shit patients. I fled when he got

better.

         I visited a bakery i once owned, called sweetish hill, it thrives and

was still superb food.  I went to two readings, read at one of them,

great events. lively poets and only one or two real clunkers. Very

active literary scene in austin. I asked for directions to a used book

store for cheap paper backs , got directed me to ever more expensive

elegant places. Kick ass book stores, "Book Woman, Jakes, and finally a

rare book store that showed me beat books in a glass case , wichita

vortex ($35), Ag's breething, ( little, looked liked homemade paper)

$100. . I did go finally to half price books and pick up three nice

burroughs books and an ann Walden book, all around $8 each..  I of

course bought something at each book store but the rare one. there I

thought I ought to sell my collection. or at least some of it.

I picked up some young earnest kid at one of the readings, he puts out a

little magazine with something featured on william every month.

I got a copy. it is interesting. writers out there plying their trade.

Some one should tell young pretties not to write poetry with a higher

ratio of LL's and  m's to g's and k's per verse for a couple of years.

 the lovely lilacs bloomed bloomed bloomed. gaga agag faf

love p

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:23:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      oops

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post to david inadvertantly sent to beat. sorry.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:35:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: just saying hello

Comments: To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>

In-Reply-To:  <343C5CFF.67B@comic.net>

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On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:

 

> Thank god i have found some kindred souls to speak to!!!

> Anyone know any cool groovy beat related places to visit in Denver

> colorado? I also recently got a copy of "Some of the Dharma"

> anyone else been enlightened by it yet?

> 

> Looking forward to getting to know ya'll.

 

 

I was in Dallas this weekend for my 30th (YUCK) birthday and saw it.

It's a lovely book and the way they did it is cool.  And (lucky me!!) I

received the Rhino boxed set of Kerouac reading.  I put a CD in at night

and it's almost like getting a bedtime story from the man himself.  The

absolute greatest!

 

Jorgiana>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:45:05 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat-l traffic

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997100912443286@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> Every list has its ebb and flow.  Hang around, things will pick up again.  I

 pl

> an a long post on my trip to Lowell.  Anyone else have any comments on the

 week

> end?

 

 

No comments on this past event, but I'm already saving pennies to go next

year!

 

Jorgiana>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:53:51 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Locklin poem

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i saw in the very cool (now online) catologue from waterrow, that he

had an interesting looking book of poetry entitled the *death of

jean-paul sarte and other poems* and i was wondering if the poem is

anygood since i sarte is pretty cool and i was just wondering what

locklin is like. is it a good book?

randy

 

> What a treat to read the Long Beach Freeway poem by Gerald Locklin.  The

 strange

> thing is that I had an American Lit. class from Locklin in 1966 at Long Beach

> State and I haven't heard anything about/from him since.  I greatly enjoy his

> teaching and his poetry.  Donald Winters

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:58:24 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: just saying hello

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> received the Rhino boxed set of Kerouac reading.  I put a CD in at night

> and it's almost like getting a bedtime story from the man himself.  The

> absolute greatest!

 

 sounds like beat bedtime stories!

 

> Jorgiana>

> 

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:28:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Howl

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Howl is one of the greatest poems of the 20th Century.  The other one

that I like as much is The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock.  But, we

don't want to go down that road again, do we.

 

Howl was a poem that bubbles over with its positive energy.  The poet

has at last discovered himself and in an excited frenzy takes us through

the entire range of his world, experience, hopes dreams and visions.  It

describes too well the Amerika I grew up in and continue to live in.

 

Howl awakened in me the realization that poetry is alive and well and

serves a purpose to me.  It wasn't just Fog and Trees and forced

scanning.  It did not have to be impossible to understand to speak.

 

Howl, a great great great poem.  And a perfect name.

 

Peace,

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:41:26 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: yellow things not on subject

 

Patricia,  great to have you back.  great story.  sounds like you had a

wonderful trip.  you really gonna right that story?  i sure hope so!!

 

welcome back,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:08:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Pits

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I hope this does not seem to depressing.  It is almost spontaneous and

off the cuff.  But the result of several very hard weeks of anxiety.

But, it ain't Howl, no matter how you cut it.  ;-)

 

Pits

 

Endless, swirling, swallowing

Unresolved consuming pits.

Quicksand is better

Than emotions.

Swamps are better

Than lifescapes.

These pits,

Threaten existence,

Make death seem welcome.

Yet, bowed I will not be.

In this pit

Is this path.

It is.

Therefore, I am.

I am.

Therefore path exists.

 

Time is irreversible.

Irreversible decisions.

Irreversible me.

 

Yet, I redeem myself.

 

In this pit,

This child,

Is learning to crawl.

 

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:15:15 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Howl

In-Reply-To:  <343D84C4.916E71E6@scsn.net> from "R. Bentz Kirby" at Oct 9,

              97 09:28:36 pm

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Bentz wrote:

> Howl is one of the greatest poems of the 20th Century.  The other one

> that I like as much is The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock.  But, we

 

Funny, that's also my other favorite poem of the 20th century.

Interesting coincidence since T. S. Eliot was really a very un-beat

poet, wasn't he?

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|              *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                    |

|                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:54:51 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Pits

Mime-Version: 1.0

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There was a pit in the road I was on.  Your poem is a ride out. My thumb

was not extended.

 

>I hope this does not seem to depressing.  It is almost spontaneous and

>off the cuff.  But the result of several very hard weeks of anxiety.

>But, it ain't Howl, no matter how you cut it.  ;-)

> 

>Pits

> 

>Endless, swirling, swallowing

>Unresolved consuming pits.

>Quicksand is better

>Than emotions.

>Swamps are better

>Than lifescapes.

>These pits,

>Threaten existence,

>Make death seem welcome.

>Yet, bowed I will not be.

>In this pit

>Is this path.

>It is.

>Therefore, I am.

>I am.

>Therefore path exists.

> 

>Time is irreversible.

>Irreversible decisions.

>Irreversible me.

> 

>Yet, I redeem myself.

> 

>In this pit,

>This child,

>Is learning to crawl.

> 

> 

> 

> 

>--

> 

>Peace,

> 

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:18:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>

Subject:      Beat Course at Berkeley

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Doesn't this look fun you guys?

 

 

                     Graduate Readings: The Beat Generation

                                                                  TTH

2-3:30

 R. Loewinsohn

 

Required Reading: Burroughs, W. S.: Junky, Naked Lunch, The Yage Letters;

Ginsberg, A.:Howl and Other Poems, Kaddish; Kerouac, J.: On the Road, Selected

Letters, 1940-1956, Visions of Cody; Snyder, G.: Earth House Hold, Myths

and Texts, No Nature; a course reader can be purchased at Copy Central on

Bancroft Way. Further materials (letters, etc.) will be placed on

closed reserve. Students may also want to make use of the Beat materials

in the Bancroft Library.

 

Required Writing: Two 8-10 pp. papers, one of which may be a

bibliographical essay on a writer or issue of your choice.

 

Course Description: This course will examine some of the important major

work (mostly the early stuff) by the four central figures of the "Beat

Generation"--Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, William Burroughs, and Gary

Snyder. Students are invited to bring in Beat writers not on this list, so

long as we can get an adequate number of texts of their work. We will

spend the first two weeks surveying the historical and literary-historical

context in which these writers and poets formed themselves, their visions,

and their styles--the 1950s and the New Criticism. Since so much of Beat

writing is autobiographical, we will want to spend some time on their

biographies, letters, etc., as well as on some of the theory surrounding

autobiographical writing. We will examine some of the ways in which the

Beats continue important traditions in both American and world

literatures, even while they depart from traditions and conventions. The

following weeks will be spent on the work of the "Beats" themselves,

approximately six class meetings per Beat writer/poet. Throughout the

course we will try to pay close attention to the differences as well as

the similarities between these four, and to the outside influences that

helped to shape them, as well as the influences they exerted on each

other. We will spend some time on the theoretical assumptions that

underlie the creation of some of this work--notions about spontaneity and

authenticity, about traditional forms and convention, about the relations

between experience and its representation, about the relation of narrator

and implied reader/listener, about the role of the poetry reading and

performed poetry--as well as some of the critical assumptions that

affected the reception of this work when it first appeared, and that still

affects the way we read it now. Having said all that, I'd still like us to

concentrate on the work itself.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:05:33 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: And why did he leave salina out of the Vortex??(Re: Let's

              Discuss Something)

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> RACE wrote:

 

>   Is there any one of you who cannot

> > identify with Howl?

> 

> It is a bit bitter for me.

 

I don't see Howl as bitter at all really.  I see it as a very positive

poem, angry at times, but the kind of anger that is meant to move one

toward positive change.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:16:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

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> Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> 

> just a few thougt s and a way of getting discussion going and what not -

> after i rcently exposed my girlfreind to "howl" and ginsberg for the

> first

> time she was uncertain how to take it - she knew she was attracted to

> the

> poetics and the cadence (first played her ginsberg reading w/ kronos

> quartet) but she had a few problems esp. with the lines about the "one

> eyed shrew" and what seemed to her a mysiginist attitude towards women.

> (she didnt know that ginsberg was gay & that in fact most of the beat

> authors were gay/bisexual or at least rather tolerant - not to bring up

> the "was kerouac gay" arguement tho...) the more she & i listened the

> more

> she

> realized that the poem didnt really seem to be talking to women at all.

> it

> seemed to be more of an address to men (like whitman was an address to

> men??) & the pressures of performance and expectations that are placed

> upon society (& esp. male society in 1950's) as seem by an

> intellectual, sexual outsider (altho saying that wouldnt elsie - that

> was

> her name, right? friend of joyce johnson's - be considered one of the

> "best minds" in ginsberg's opinion - he didnt preface and introduce her

> poems to city lights journal at one point...)

I don't see really good poems or really good writing as addressing male

or female issues or as being written for men or women.  All really great

writing addresses human-ness, the common place were are all at simply by

virtue of being human.

 

        and as for the scholars of war and the scholars of money - i

> think

> that come 1955 and the rise of the American world-state (USA as major

> world power - one could argue - only was solidified after the atomic

> bomb

> and the creation of the " us and them" attitude of late 40's early

> 50's,

> as well as the strength of the american economy post WWII, due to

> efforts

> to retain levels of warproduction and the creation of the consumer

> state )

> couldnt you say that the idea of seperating the "scholars of war" and

> the

> "scholars of money" rather futile? they are one & the same in post WII

> US

> culture, are the not? (for instance - the creation of the "disposable

> car"

> thatis, a car with models that change after a few yrs and the

> introduction

> of various colours, etc & the importnace of keeping up to date - was a

> conscious effort by the manufacturers and the US government to keep the

> economy at the same levels of production as they were during the war,

> thus

> providing jobs & security for both returning vets as well as

> governmental

> contractors...) so is there really a difference b/t war & money?

> hallucination & reality?

> but i suppose i digress...

 

I agree that in the time Ginsberg wrote Howl it would be futile to

separate money and war.  I think that today in the U.S. with war more

or less shoved into the background, that the scholars of money would be a

more appropriate target.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:42:52 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Locklin poem

 

Gerald Locklin had much of his writing published in the Exquisite Corpse (now

in retirement) these last couple of years. However, he did publish a slim

memoir about Charles Bukowski, which I would recomend to all. I got my copy

from Jeffrey at Water Row. Jeffrey, you still have those?

 

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:27:09 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

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> vorys wrote:

 

> Carl Solomon was not "mad". He and Ginsberg would have been offended by

> the term. Allen always felt a little guilty over hanging that burden on

> Carl. Carl Solomon and my wife had a steady correspondence until his

> death. He was lucid and funny to the end. ie. Ginsberg to hospitalized

> Carl Solomon ..."How are you?"  Carl responded ... " I'm dying but I

> have life insurance."

> 

> Re:Howl ... It's a wonderful poem and period piece. The original beats

> have transcended it by living through it.

 

I understand why you would think of madness as an offensive term.

However, Ginsberg used the term in reference to Carl Solomon in Howl not

only in the "best minds destroyed by madness" line but also when he says

"Carl Solomon! I'm with you in Rockland where you're madder than I am."

I'm not sure that it was a negative use of the term, but in a way saying

that we are all in the grips of madness in some ways.

 

I also do not see Howl as a "period piece."  It does what most good

writing does and transcends time.  Do you really see a different America

today?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:09:30 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      (no subject)

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Thanks for all the ideas you guys gave me on things to do in denver when

you're definitely not dead.  I'm going out to visit my sister and need

things to do while she's at work.  I've got some excellent starting

points now.  I'll write back and tell ya'll what i find when i return.

 

 

going mobile,

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:33:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

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> Karen Eblen wrote:

 

> Hello. My name is Karen, and I'm new to the list.

> I was drawn to the 1994 Naropa Institute's "Beats and Rebel Angels"

> 20th

> anniversary celebration by the starry dynamo in the machinery of

> night... I left there horribly disillussioned regarding the "scholars

> of

> money." The fact that the Beats are now institutionalized contradicts

> everything they stood for-- maddness? Anyone?

 

I take it you mean by institutionaized being taught at institutions?  If

so, I would disagree that is contradicts what they stood for.  Getting

what they stood for and wrote out there for people to learn from should

be an important goal and something we should be happy about.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:39:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Howl

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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> Howl is one of the greatest poems of the 20th Century.  The other one

> that I like as much is The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock.  But, we

> don't want to go down that road again, do we.

No, I won't go there.

 

> Howl was a poem that bubbles over with its positive energy.  The poet

> has at last discovered himself and in an excited frenzy takes us

> through

> the entire range of his world, experience, hopes dreams and visions.

> It

> describes too well the Amerika I grew up in and continue to live in.

I absolute agree.  Not only did it address American experience, but it

was just the beginning of an extremely positive vision.

 

> Howl awakened in me the realization that poetry is alive and well and

> serves a purpose to me.  It wasn't just Fog and Trees and forced

> scanning.  It did not have to be impossible to understand to speak.

> 

> Howl, a great great great poem.  And a perfect name.

 

Do a little howling on the path out of the pit.  The move from crawling

to walking is not as big as you might think it is.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 04:38:04 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Locklin poem

 

is this where i would find the Long Beach Highway poem?

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of THE ZET'S GOOD.

Sent:   Thursday, October 09, 1997 5:42 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Locklin poem

 

Gerald Locklin had much of his writing published in the Exquisite Corpse (now

in retirement) these last couple of years. However, he did publish a slim

memoir about Charles Bukowski, which I would recomend to all. I got my copy

from Jeffrey at Water Row. Jeffrey, you still have those?

 

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 04:43:54 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

 

i'd agree, except that the scholars of money are still operating on the old

"defense"-economy notions.  this country still spends vast amounts of money on

things related to the military....  and instead of sending young boys out to

the slaughter, this economy is killing hopes, dreams, families, quality of

life (and people, too) just as surely as any bit of war machinery killed

soldiers.

 

seems to me they're still VERY closely related.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Diane Carter

Sent:   Thursday, October 09, 1997 12:16 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Madness/Howl

 

> Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> 

> just a few thougt s and a way of getting discussion going and what not -

> after i rcently exposed my girlfreind to "howl" and ginsberg for the

> first

> time she was uncertain how to take it - she knew she was attracted to

> the

> poetics and the cadence (first played her ginsberg reading w/ kronos

> quartet) but she had a few problems esp. with the lines about the "one

> eyed shrew" and what seemed to her a mysiginist attitude towards women.

> (she didnt know that ginsberg was gay & that in fact most of the beat

> authors were gay/bisexual or at least rather tolerant - not to bring up

> the "was kerouac gay" arguement tho...) the more she & i listened the

> more

> she

> realized that the poem didnt really seem to be talking to women at all.

> it

> seemed to be more of an address to men (like whitman was an address to

> men??) & the pressures of performance and expectations that are placed

> upon society (& esp. male society in 1950's) as seem by an

> intellectual, sexual outsider (altho saying that wouldnt elsie - that

> was

> her name, right? friend of joyce johnson's - be considered one of the

> "best minds" in ginsberg's opinion - he didnt preface and introduce her

> poems to city lights journal at one point...)

I don't see really good poems or really good writing as addressing male

or female issues or as being written for men or women.  All really great

writing addresses human-ness, the common place were are all at simply by

virtue of being human.

 

        and as for the scholars of war and the scholars of money - i

> think

> that come 1955 and the rise of the American world-state (USA as major

> world power - one could argue - only was solidified after the atomic

> bomb

> and the creation of the " us and them" attitude of late 40's early

> 50's,

> as well as the strength of the american economy post WWII, due to

> efforts

> to retain levels of warproduction and the creation of the consumer

> state )

> couldnt you say that the idea of seperating the "scholars of war" and

> the

> "scholars of money" rather futile? they are one & the same in post WII

> US

> culture, are the not? (for instance - the creation of the "disposable

> car"

> thatis, a car with models that change after a few yrs and the

> introduction

> of various colours, etc & the importnace of keeping up to date - was a

> conscious effort by the manufacturers and the US government to keep the

> economy at the same levels of production as they were during the war,

> thus

> providing jobs & security for both returning vets as well as

> governmental

> contractors...) so is there really a difference b/t war & money?

> hallucination & reality?

> but i suppose i digress...

 

I agree that in the time Ginsberg wrote Howl it would be futile to

separate money and war.  I think that today in the U.S. with war more

or less shoved into the background, that the scholars of money would be a

more appropriate target.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:50:31 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Gary Snyder Reading

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I just returned from hearing Snyder read extensively from "Mountains and

Rivers" at Stanford.  GS was in great form as a reader, a tribute to the

age fighting effects of Buddhist mediation and/or damn good genes.

 

The Humanities Center at Stanford is doing a year long focus on MRWE

from a number of perspectives.  Interested scholars might check out

their web site http://shc.stanford.edu.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:53:50 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Luther Allison Memorial

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Not exactly dead center Beat, I know  but my fellow Luther Allison fans

(Richard, etc.) will want to know that Monday 13th in SF there will be a

benefit show for the Luther Allison Medical Fund.

 

"Bluesman John Lee

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:58:36 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Luther continued

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Excuse and erroneous key stroke that sent my unfinished missive out over

the wires.

 

"Bluesman John Lee Hooker takes time out from the demands of launching

his new club, the Boom, Boom Room (on fillmore for your hooker fans) to

play a tribute to the late blues guitarist Luther Allison . . .Hooker,

who toured Europe with Allison in '83 and joined him onstage at the '95

SF Blues Festival said in a statement, "He was a gentleman I've known

for almost 20 years and he was a kind and warm person. His passing was a

big loss to the blues world."  Hooker will play with Joe Louis Walker,

Mitch Woods, Ritchie Hayward, Coco Montoaya, Sistah Monica, and Liandy

Bianca . . ."

 

Joe Louis Walker is damn good.  Most of Hookers recent sets are very

very short and pretty minimal, but he is still one of the great ones.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:17:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

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L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8c) wrote:

> 

> The distribution  of your message  dated Thu, 09  Oct 1997 21:13:37  -0500

 with

> subject  "Re: Pits"  has  been rejected  because you  have  exceeded the

 daily

> per-user message limit for  the BEAT-L list. Other than the  list owner, no

 one

> is allowed to post more than 10 messages per day. Please resend your message

 at

> a later time if you still want it to be posted to the list.

> 

> ------------------------ Rejected message (67 lines)

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> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 21:13:37 -0500

> From: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)

> MIME-Version: 1.0

> To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Subject: Re: Pits

> References: <343D8E37.13B8DDF1@scsn.net>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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> 

> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> >

> > I hope this does not seem to depressing.  It is almost spontaneous and

> > off the cuff.  But the result of several very hard weeks of anxiety.

> > But, it ain't Howl, no matter how you cut it.  ;-)

> >

> > Pits

> >

> > Endless, swirling, swallowing

> > Unresolved consuming pits.

> > Quicksand is better

> > Than emotions.

> > Swamps are better

> > Than lifescapes.

> > These pits,

> > Threaten existence,

> > Make death seem welcome.

> > Yet, bowed I will not be.

> > In this pit

> > Is this path.

> > It is.

> > Therefore, I am.

> > I am.

> > Therefore path exists.

> >

> > Time is irreversible.

> > Irreversible decisions.

> > Irreversible me.

> >

> > Yet, I redeem myself.

> >

> > In this pit,

> > This child,

> > Is learning to crawl.

> >

> > --

> >

> > Peace,

> >

> > Bentz

> > bocelts@scsn.net

> > http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> 

> i believe i know where you are at.  i'll have you in my thoughts.  nice

> poem.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

Bentz,

 

tried to send you this earlier in the day -- but

 

my

 

                                ebb

 

                                &

 

                                flow

 

 

 

                have been in quiet a cozy straightjacket

 

                        by Moloch since about 10 this morning....

 

                But in the words of j.j.  YES!

 

hope that i will be able to sleep tonight.  I've been chomping at the

bit - almost literally - to get involved in all these fucking jet fueled

threads.  i am literally praying that the Howl thread makes it to the

end of the book and holy holy holy and all that stuff.  Tomorrow though

i plan to focus focus my psyche on the words "hysterical" and "naked".

I'm going to randomly post somethings now because i don't want to waste

any of my precious limited beat-posts and be straightjacketed again in

the morning.  Maybe the second violation is a cyber-lobotamy(sp?) :), or

electroshock (i had a very dear friend who went through this treatment

named Pam R.)  My visit to Naropa was COMPLETELY different than any of

those i've read about today.  Here is what i recommend to all of you.

GO WHEN NOTHING IS HAPPENING.  I walked into the building and FLOOD of

pink energy smashed towards me enveloped me comfortably and my initial

paranoia about just walking in were disintegrated.  I began to wander.

The visuals on the walls (the ones in the frames at least) are

exquisite.  You really can't do any of them justice without standing for

an hour completely alone in silence and staring until you fall into the

picture.  You always come out better for the trip.  I wandered to the

left and around and heard some giggling.  Perhaps it was an auditory

hallucination, perhaps it was some naropa-ites (what species are they

anyway?) playing hide and seek.  I chose to seek.  I seeked and I seeked

and I seeked and I even sought a few times.  Stopped at a meditation

room and it said come on in.  I thought ... maybe this is where they're

all hiding (and feeling a bit like Alice in a rabbithole) ... WHOOOSH

Royal Blue energy and intense incense of Joy escaped from the room like

the West Wind had been boxed by Pandora and left for me to open.  I

browsed in the bookstore for along time and almost bought some WSB

postcards...This was the day of the Bardo in Lawrence by the way so i

was thinking about getting the card and burning it outside at Naropa.

But i thought better of it....closed my eyes and ... presto alakazam i

became the flame at the Kaw ... and from my vantage point Patricia's

version of the event was pretty accurate....

 

NOW.

Please for the "beat straightjacket kid" Beat bedtime stories ... and

lots of them!!!!

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:26:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

Comments: To: vorys@concentric.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

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vorys wrote:

> 

> Diane Carter wrote:

> >

> > Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first time I

> > read those beginning lines twenty years ago.  There is something not only

> > about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that

> > makes it so almost explosive.  In my mind, the best beginning of any

> > poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,

> > aren't you) And where are we now in terms of not only the literal madness

> > of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,

> > the madness of America as a culture?  Is there any one of you who cannot

> > identify with Howl?  Perhaps the scholars of war are now the scholars of

> > money.  Perhaps the halluncinating has now become our natural state, our

> > consciousness altered by technology more than drugs.  I would say that in

> > the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the

> > state of America and the state of our individual lives.  Are we still not

> > burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry

> > dynamo in the machinery of night?  Isn't that what draws us to the beats?

> > DC

> > DC

> 

> Carl Solomon was not "mad". He and Ginsberg would have been offended by

> the term. Allen always felt a little guilty over hanging that burden on

> Carl. Carl Solomon and my wife had a steady correspondence until his

> death. He was lucid and funny to the end. ie. Ginsberg to hospitalized

> Carl Solomon ..."How are you?"  Carl responded ... " I'm dying but I

> have life insurance."

> 

> Re:Howl ... It's a wonderful poem and period piece. The original beats

> have transcended it by living through it.

 

I'm a gonna waste one of my precious post on this.  MAD is a relative

term -- kinda like crazy and nigger -- see since i'm an experienced

veteran of the madhouses I can call other folks from the madhouse MAD

and it doesn't mean the same thing as if someone without such life

experience uses the term at me or somebody else.  A sense of family and

kinship often develops in these places that provides meanings and

subtexts that are frankly slightly beyond reality :) -- but we

understand them well -- i recall reading in a bio about the incident of

Allen and Carl and Carl playing the beginner for a fool in their first

conversation by being a bit further out and i was rotflmao!   The

listserv i'm on for those with my disability technically called "bipolar

affective disorders with psychotic tendencies" but i like to call "the

thing hermann hesse had" is actually very affectionally titled MADNESS.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:02:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      More madness

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Diane: I like your comments on "Howl" and madness.  It's a topic that I've been

interested in lately,  Michel Foucault, the French post-structuralist, wrote a

book called "Madness and Civilization" which, although I haven't read it all

yet, I understand makes a clear distinction between the "holy madness" of saints

and poets and the "imperial unreason" of the damn technocrats and, I suppose,

Dylan's "masters of war."  A lot of books in the 60's dealt with this important

distinction-- books like Kesey's "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" and R.D.

Laing's "Divided Self," Vonnegut's books, and of course  Ginsberg who saw the

best minds of his generation destroyed by madness, etc. etc.

Donald Winters winte030@tc.umn.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:13:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: More madness

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Donald E. Winters wrote:

> 

> Diane: I like your comments on "Howl" and madness.  It's a topic that I've

 been

> interested in lately,  Michel Foucault, the French post-structuralist, wrote a

> book called "Madness and Civilization" which, although I haven't read it all

> yet, I understand makes a clear distinction between the "holy madness" of

 saints

> and poets and the "imperial unreason" of the damn technocrats and, I suppose,

> Dylan's "masters of war."  A lot of books in the 60's dealt with this

 important

> distinction-- books like Kesey's "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" and R.D.

> Laing's "Divided Self," Vonnegut's books, and of course  Ginsberg who saw the

> best minds of his generation destroyed by madness, etc. etc.

> Donald Winters winte030@tc.umn.edu

 

I think Foucault's is a nice twist to history.  I really enjoy

re-reading Erving Goffman's ASYLUMS: Essays on the social situation of

mental patients and other inmates.

 

Personally i was working on a series of essays some years ago after

taking disability from Teacher's Insurance Annuity Association to prove

that the world was MAD and I wasn't and let's see i had a few things

titled "The Reification of Medicalized Being" and "Symbolism and the

Abyss" and "Paradox and Recovery" gave my last hard copies to a friend

and Jungian analyst and he died of a heart attack.  The computer was

pawned while i was in-hospital.  I have not located the stuff anywhere

else.  But I no longer wish to prove anything.  It takes little for me

to accept that for now at least in this society I am definitely not

sane.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:22:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Liner Notes-Ginsberg's Holy Soul Jelly Roll

In-Reply-To:  <343D8E37.13B8DDF1@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

For those who wanted to see the liner notes from the 4 CD set, ALLEN

GINSBERG: Holy Soul Jelly Roll-Poems and Songs (1949-1993)  Rhino Records

71693; September 1994; $49.98 CD / $39.98 cassette.

 

http://www.bookzen.com/holy_soul.html

 

Great set of CD's.

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 06:26:32 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: More madness

 

sweetie - are you ok?  do you need me to talk you down?

 

smooches,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of RACE ---

Sent:   Thursday, October 09, 1997 11:13 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: More madness

 

Donald E. Winters wrote:

> 

> Diane: I like your comments on "Howl" and madness.  It's a topic that I've

 been

> interested in lately,  Michel Foucault, the French post-structuralist, wrote

a

> book called "Madness and Civilization" which, although I haven't read it all

> yet, I understand makes a clear distinction between the "holy madness" of

 saints

> and poets and the "imperial unreason" of the damn technocrats and, I

suppose,

> Dylan's "masters of war."  A lot of books in the 60's dealt with this

 important

> distinction-- books like Kesey's "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" and R.D.

> Laing's "Divided Self," Vonnegut's books, and of course  Ginsberg who saw

the

> best minds of his generation destroyed by madness, etc. etc.

> Donald Winters winte030@tc.umn.edu

 

I think Foucault's is a nice twist to history.  I really enjoy

re-reading Erving Goffman's ASYLUMS: Essays on the social situation of

mental patients and other inmates.

 

Personally i was working on a series of essays some years ago after

taking disability from Teacher's Insurance Annuity Association to prove

that the world was MAD and I wasn't and let's see i had a few things

titled "The Reification of Medicalized Being" and "Symbolism and the

Abyss" and "Paradox and Recovery" gave my last hard copies to a friend

and Jungian analyst and he died of a heart attack.  The computer was

pawned while i was in-hospital.  I have not located the stuff anywhere

else.  But I no longer wish to prove anything.  It takes little for me

to accept that for now at least in this society I am definitely not

sane.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:36:59 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: More madness

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

dbr: I certainly don't see myself as sane either, especially when sanity is

often the stark dismal reality of the technocrats and their ilk.  R.D. Laing has

the right idea in "Divided Self," when he sees the utter insanity of sanity.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:44:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat Course at Berkeley

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tristan saldana wrote:

> 

> Doesn't this look fun you guys?

> 

>                      Graduate Readings: The Beat Generation

>                                                                   TTH

> 2-3:30

>  R. Loewinsohn

> 

> Required Reading: Burroughs, W. S.: Junky, Naked Lunch, The Yage Letters;

> Ginsberg, A.:Howl and Other Poems, Kaddish; Kerouac, J.: On the Road, Selected

> Letters, 1940-1956, Visions of Cody; Snyder, G.: Earth House Hold, Myths

> and Texts, No Nature; a course reader can be purchased at Copy Central on

> Bancroft Way. Further materials (letters, etc.) will be placed on

> closed reserve. Students may also want to make use of the Beat materials

> in the Bancroft Library.

> 

 

It seems to me to give WSB short treatment.  just my 2 cents

 

dbr

 

of fuck i haven't been keeping track of how many posts i've sent... shit

looks like another straightjacket on the way...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:59:34 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Kerr <kerr@THEPLA.NET>

Subject:      Australian Beat Lovers

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Hey there y'all from down this way. I've only just joined, but I have a

 question.

Does anyone in australia know of any good beat happenings in sydney ?

 

 

Cheers to the max

 

jk

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 05:15:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Australian Beat Lovers

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David Kerr wrote:

> 

> Hey there y'all from down this way. I've only just joined, but I have a

>  question.

> Does anyone in australia know of any good beat happenings in sydney ?

> 

> Cheers to the max

> 

> jk

 

Don't know about sydney but if you're in an Allen and/or William mood

here is some information from a cd liner note i have.

 

"The indigenous members of Yothu Yindi are among the traditional owners

of North East Arnhem Land, a region of Australia's Northern Territory in

which Yolngu (Aboriginal) people have lived in relative isolation for

thousands of years.  The band hail from the coastal communities of Amhem

Land's Gove Peninsular.

 

Christian missionaries sailed into the area in the 1920's . . . Royal

Australian Air Force squadrons were based here during World War II ...

but the Yolngu people of the region had only limited contact with

Balanda (European) society prior to the 1970s.  Then ... the

multi-national mining company Nabalco moved in and started mining

bauxite from their tribal homelands.

 

Yoingu people deal as an intrinsic part of their daily lives, with

cultural responsibilities handed down from generation to generation.

Yolngu society has a complex and elaborate world view, a sophisticated

system of kinship, and rich ceremonial and religious behaviour.  By

attributing human qualities to all natural species and elements.  Yoingu

people live in spiritual harmony with nautre.  This is communicated in

ceremonial song and dance.

 

Traditional music performed by Yothu Yindi is that of the Gumatj and

Rirratjingu clans who have lived in, and looked after, this land for the

last 40,000 years or so."

                -- Andrew McMillan

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:24:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Locklin poem

 

In a message dated 97-10-10 00:39:10 EDT, you write:

 

<< 

 Gerald Locklin had much of his writing published in the Exquisite Corpse

(now

 in retirement) these last couple of years. However, he did publish a slim

 memoir about Charles Bukowski, which I would recomend to all. I got my copy

 from Jeffrey at Water Row. Jeffrey, you still have those?

 

 Dave B.

  >>

 

Gerry Locklin's poems have been published in the Wormwood Review mostly in

the last few years in addition to Exquisitite Corpse and countless other

small mags.

Charles Bukowski: A Sure Bet, Locklin's Bukowski memoir, is still available

directly from us or at any bookstore - Borders carries Water Row Press books

as do many Barnes & Nobles and independent bookstores.

 

We will be publishing a volume of selected poems and prose by Gerald Locklin,

sort of "The Best of Locklin" in early 1998...The book has been edited and is

going to the printer in a few weeks....

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:27:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Locklin poem

 

In a message dated 97-10-10 02:36:05 EDT, you write:

 

<< What a treat to read the Long Beach Freeway poem by Gerald Locklin.  The

strange

 thing is that I had an American Lit. class from Locklin in 1966 at Long

Beach

 State and I haven't heard anything about/from him since.  I greatly enjoy

his

 teaching and his poetry.  Donald Winters

  >>

 

Gerry Locklin is alive and well teaching English a Cal State Univ, Long

Beach.

I'm sure he'd love to hear from you...I will send him a copy of your

message....

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:39:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Patricia Traxler

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While sitting on the stoop chatting with my elderly neighbor Frances, he

mentioned that his bosses' significant other (he used the word of his

generation "live-in") was Patricia Traxler.  I said small world!  When i

was at a luncheon at Patricia Elliott's in Lawrence before William

Burroughs memorial service a woman (i have forgotten her name but

vividly recall her face) asked where i was from and I said Salina, she

asked if I knew Patricia Traxler.  I said that I'd gone to a few of the

readings she hosts in the spring at the local Mexican restaraunt but

that i didn't like them because everybody had their noses in the air.

She didn't seem to understand what i possibly meant.  The poets were

excellent.  So good that I wanted to shout GO! GO! GO! and wander

through the place drinking my coffee.  Such actions would certainly have

had me hospitalized :)  I also recall her name was on the River City

Reunion program as well.... Small world afterall ....

 

In the event that she ever would visit me during the HOWL thread, I will

ask her to type a few words about HOWL and what it means to her.

 

peace, love, and understanding,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:11:55 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:53:02 -0600 from

              <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

 

Yes, Derek, war, money, molloch -- all the same.   I don't agree that "Howl" is

addressed more to men than women.  If it's a matter of repression, women, of co

urse, were repressed by 1950s society even more than men, though ironically wom

en (except for those like Elise Cowen & Di Prima who rebelled) were instruments

of that repression in some ways -- supporting move to suburbs, materialistic li

festyles, work ethic and mainstream man-in-the-grey-flannel-suit values.  At le

ast this is one theme that runs through Beat literature.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:49:37 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Beat Course at Berkeley

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:18:12 -0700 from

              <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>

 

I'd add John Clellon Holmes' articles on the Beat Generation and his novel "Go.

"

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:40:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      I'm fine

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Sherry: No, I'm fine, but thanks for the offer. Donald

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:58:24 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: I'm fine

 

oops, it appears i somehow replied to a private message via Beat-l, dunno how

that happened.  ghosts in the machine...  sorry Donald must've thought that

was weird coming from someone you've never talked to.  anyway, i apologize.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:00:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      Thanks for offering to send my message to Locklin

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

His American Literature classes at Long Beach was one of the most enjoyable I

have ever taken.  I am now on my second sabbatical from  my Humanities position

at Minneapolis Community and Technical College.  You might tell professor

Locklin that I still have all my notes from his class and particularly enjoyed

his comments on "Bartleby the Scribner" by Melville.  I still remember that on

our final we were asked to assess all of American Literaure through the eyes of

Bartleby's "I prefer not to" attitude.  I have, I confess, stolen Professor

Locklin's idea on the some of the classes that I teach.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:11:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

Comments: To: Darrell Byars <drilit@flash.net>

In-Reply-To:  <343D65B7.5118@flash.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Darrell Byars wrote:

 

> The event did inspire me, and I'll never forget it. But, I was irritated

> when I learned from a Naropa student that financial aid for less than

> wealthy students had been cut off at Naropa; leaving less fortunate

> students in the lurch with incomplete MFA's. I was shocked by the

> pompous aire that most of the patrons exhibited, (I was a volunteer

> seating folks in the theatre, camping behind the school in a VW bus). I

> felt out of place.  But my biggest let down was the PC reaction to

> Kesey's "Twister," (I thought he made a point by not making one), and

> the talk of boycotting his performance because people were offended by

> him.

 

I wish I would've met you there, as it sounds like we were in the same boat.

The potential boycott of "Twister" by the overwhelmingly PC "poets" really

got me down, as did the near-approachability of most of the students there

-- almost all of them that I met gave off a better-than-thou air, and nobody

was interested in talking serious about literature etc. (reminded me exactly

of the vast majority of Oberlin students around here, what my friend calls

Trustafundians); most of the people I ended hanging out with were, like me,

just visiting for the event.

 

> The good things-- I found Ginsberg (at least) approachable, and a kind

> teacher. Snyder was kind enough. I was able to have a real conversation

> with Ferlinghetti and Kesey. They each signed a book for me.

 

Yeah, the big names -- people involved and doing things -- were all nice and

approachable. It was great to just walk around the small Naropa campus and

be running into all these people, and you could talk to any of them! Kesey

was hilarious. Like I mentioned, I found Ginsberg to be very mean on the

first day of the event but he later apologized and spent some time with me,

seemed genuinely concerned etc. Soon after I left I wanted to go back, still

do.

 

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl..org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:52:15 -0500

Reply-To:     vorys@concentric.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Sherri wrote:

> 

> can you explain why people thought Carl was mad?  was it merely because he

> thought outside the mainstream?

> 

> thanks, sherri

> 

> 

 

 

    I think in this case it's necessary to define madness. Do we still

consider anyone who goes to a psychiatrist these days mad? The fifty's

was a different place and mindset than 90's USA.

  If you are neurotic, are you mad? If your dealing with repressed

feelings that are socially unacceptable ... are you mad?        And who are

these "people" who thought him mad? I don't know. Maybe there is some

confusion with Carl and Artuad? Carl met him in Paris while interested

in Surrealism and Issou. But it was  Artaud's essay on Van Gogh as

suicided by society that caused Carl to reflect on his own life.

 

  Carl was the first to introduct his beat pals to "zen lunatics".

 

  The mystic-visionary path that many beats followed, to be free from

the comformity of the 50's, turns now into Crazy Wisdom ... a form of

effective action that is free of social convention ... sort of

spontaneous site-specific theater.

 

  It could be that these terms Mad, Lunatic, Crazy, etc. become blurred

with the myth.

And maybe that's the real topic ... the use of Myth as vehicle for

disseminating information.

       Steve

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:45:18 +0100

Reply-To:     jean-ory@altranet.fr

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jean Ory <jean-ory@ALTRANET.FR>

Organization: altranet

Subject:      Howl and Getting out

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Hello everybody,

 

Thank you very much for all the posts you send to Beat L.

As I am under pressure, I got little time to say thanks and how much I

appreciate

Reading the posts make me really feel good.

 

I am a  fan of a sentence of Antonin Artaud who said about the peyote

and his trip to the Tarahumara Land :

 

"I went to peyote not to go into something but to get out of

everything".

 

I think this can be applied to "Howl", to the Beat culture, to Buddhism,

to Blues, to Jimi Hendrix music.

 

Getting one's own mind out everything  is just connecting oneself to the

flow life as

energy and realising that everything is life.

 

Just a koan look like and a big :) from the heart

 

Jean

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:56:02 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Leonard Cohen (Re: Gary Snyder Reading)

In-Reply-To:  <343DB417.123B@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

James Stauffer says:

>I just returned from hearing Snyder read extensively from "Mountains and

>Rivers" at Stanford.  GS was in great form as a reader, a tribute to the

>age fighting effects of Buddhist mediation and/or damn good genes.

> 

>The Humanities Center at Stanford is doing a year long focus on MRWE

>from a number of perspectives.  Interested scholars might check out

>their web site http://shc.stanford.edu.

> 

>J. Stauffer

> 

amici,

i've read an article concerned Leonard Cohen (now zen monk Leonard C.)

living in the Rinzai Zen Buddhism Center at Mt. Baldy L.A., it's the

same place attended by gary snyder?

a week ago i noted a book written about an interviewed Gary Snyder,

the book is translated in italian by a the "Abele Circle" a catholic

group devoted to pacifism, sorry i cant' afford to get thecheapbook'cuz

damnmoney!i have n't--cari saluti a tutti da rinaldo.

 

        LITTLE WING by Neal Young

 

        All her friends call her Litlle Wing

        But the flies rings around them all

        She comes to town when the children sing

        And leaves them feathers if they fall.

        She leaves her feathers if they fall.

 

        Little Wing, don't fly away

        When the summer turns to fall

        Don't you know some people say

        The winter is the best time of them all

        Winter is the best of all.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:59:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder Reading

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

 

Dear James and Beat List,

 

Standing ovation at the end of last nights

reading of Mountains and Rivers Without End,

Gary Snyder's electric master piece...

Here is the opening of the notes he wrote for the

program,

"This is a poem sequence that reaches towards an imaging, a

visualizing, of the whole planet as one watershed, one great place.

Like an old time Buddhist pilgrim, it tries

to move through the world in the spirit

of the Compassion and Insight/ Emptiness/ Transparency.

The structure of the sequence is inspired, in part, by the East Asian

sumi-ink

paintings of landscapes (particular the horizontal scrolls or "handscrolls");

the dramatic strategies and aesthetic insights of Japanese No drama; and

twentieth century open-form long poem traditions. It moves between lyric,

dramatic, and narrative modes, and is best experienced as performance.

It was begun in the spring of 1956, and at a rate of about one poem per year,

finished in 1996."

 

What a treat it was hearing Snyder go into character voices of old mountain

men.

One highlight was his chanting of the "Heart Sutra." After the applause died

down,

Snyder said, "I didn't write that one." much laughter! During the section

entitled

the Mountain Spirit, Snyder took on the voice of an actor in a Japanese No

drama,

even spinning into a little dance as the Mountain Spirit.

 

One of the most intriguing sections was Ma, based on a letter

Snyder found on the floor of a long-abandoned logger's cabin in the Yuba

River county. A letter from home, the voices came to life, Ah Jafey you Darma

Bum!!

 

The poems ends with the "Thick wet point of the black brush lifting from the

page." I have seen Snyder give readings on numerous occasions, never

has he been more alive, really using his body and hands, slowing down sinking

into the material. I hope that you all get a chance to witness, "Mountains

and Rivers Without End."

 

Gary Mex Glazner

Headless Buddha

http://www.well.com/user/poetmex

P.S.

James I'm sorry we didn't get a chance to say Hello.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:46:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: I'm fine

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Sherri wrote:

> 

> oops, it appears i somehow replied to a private message via Beat-l, dunno how

> that happened.  ghosts in the machine...  sorry Donald must've thought that

> was weird coming from someone you've never talked to.  anyway, i apologize.

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

 

the soft machine ... dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:49:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs piece

In-Reply-To:  <343C53BC.27EE@sunflower.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> > In any case, the lead in page is at

> > http://www.interlog.com/~fiction/28_netedit.html

> > and the actual tribute is linked from there. I'll warn you

> > that it is about 400K with all the images.

> >

> > It was writing this piece that has finally brought a sense of

> > closure. I didn't burn anything, but created something with

> > Burroughs as silent collaborator. We have different ways

> > of dealing with grief, and this is how I dealt with mine.

> >

> > It's called "ghost-writing: a metempsychosis"

> >

> > I invite you all to read/view it, and I'd appreciate any

> > comments or feedback.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Neil

> 

> graceful yet a real head snapper. bravo

> 

 

Thanks for taking the time to read it, and for the generous words.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:56:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      [Fwd: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU]

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thanx

 

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subject "Re: THE STATE OF MADDNESS" has been rejected because you have exceeded

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Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 12:30:06 -0500

From: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

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To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: THE STATE OF MADDNESS

References: <3.0.32.19971009130635.00687264@maila.wm.edu>

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Jonathan Pickle wrote:

> 

>  And where are we now in terms of not only the literal madness

> of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,

> the madness of America as a culture?

> 

> America seems to have always prided itself on its maddness.  Ceaselessly we

> drone out life for the sake of the mind manipulation of the media and

> politicians who are, seemingly, under no obligation to be accountable.

> While America as an idea has amazing potential, it is being diminished by

> the consuming virus of complacency with mainstream culture.  The times have

> changed relatively little since the day Allen Ginsberg scribbled these

> lines.  A few laws have changed and a few people have died in the fight,

> but all in all the hysteria of life goes on.  That is why Howl is such a

> timeless work - sadly enough it must always be thought to be relavant.  I

> by no means think it is less valuble, but the rage against contemporary

> society that Howl symbolizes will always be there.  The Beats were tired of

> society, so they dropped out and railed against it.  It will be done again

> as it has been, and will be done for thousands of years ad infinitum.  The

> state of American maddness is the same - our image of it has only slightly

> changed.

> 

> Jon

 

LITTLE HAS CHANGED????

 

how bout the madness of the American dream for black males in America?

 

quoting from:

My American Journey by Colin Powell

p.613

(this is a wonderful blackbeat poem in my mind)

 

Colin Powell's Rules

 

1.  It ain't as bad as you think.  It will look better in the morning.

2.  Get mad, then get over it

(listening to Meditation Rock by AG yesterday it is clear that he got

over much of it)

3.  Avoid having your ego so close to your position that when your

position falls, your ego goes with it.

(An autobiography of Richard Milhouse Nixon there i'd say)

4.  It can be done!

5.  Be carefuly what you choose.  You may get it.

6.  Don't let adverse facts stand in the way of a good decision.

(gotta love that one ... since when did facts matter to beats anyway)

7.  You can't make someone else's choices.  You shouldn't let someone

else make yours.

(new reasons for spite! JK)

8.  Check small things.

(WSB's goldfish)

9.  Share credit.

AG's wonderful dedication to Howl

10.  Remain calm.  Be kind.

Aum to Ah ... Chicago park scenery

11.  Have a vision.  Be demanding

Now if that isn't AG & WSB's view of love i don't know what is.

12.  Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers.

(could be found in the middle of WSB's words of advice to young people

with just a few mumbles coughs and yups)

13.  Perpetual optimism is a force multiplier.

 

i really really really need to do my laundry today or tomorrow....

 

dbr

 

 

--------------48CB37932C8--

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:02:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: I'm fine

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Donald E. Winters wrote:

> 

> Sherry: No, I'm fine, but thanks for the offer. Donald

 

rotflmao

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:26:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs piece

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Neil Hennessy wrote:

> 

> On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> > > In any case, the lead in page is at

> > > http://www.interlog.com/~fiction/28_netedit.html

> > > and the actual tribute is linked from there. I'll warn you

> > > that it is about 400K with all the images.

> > >

> > > It was writing this piece that has finally brought a sense of

> > > closure. I didn't burn anything, but created something with

> > > Burroughs as silent collaborator. We have different ways

> > > of dealing with grief, and this is how I dealt with mine.

> > >

> > > It's called "ghost-writing: a metempsychosis"

> > >

> > > I invite you all to read/view it, and I'd appreciate any

> > > comments or feedback.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > Neil

> >

> > graceful yet a real head snapper. bravo

> >

> 

> Thanks for taking the time to read it, and for the generous words.

> 

> Neil

Neil, i want to thank you.  The peice hit that criteria of mine, that

after years of searching i use for determining good writing. It was

interesting, made me think, led my mind on.  It had such a rich use of

perspective, the use of your insight gained from his, was touching to me

in my heart.  I might have a different reaction than others due to how

(the roads) that I knew William, but your peice brought many thoughts

home to me.  I loved Williams art, I think his art which may have lacked

this or that in technique but to me was strong and true, part of the

expression of his genius.  Your use of your art, especially the opening

siluette peice fit like a gold glove.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:38:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

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I say little has changed because, little has.  I applaud anyone who can

emerge from society.  The madness refers to the dogmas of society pressing

their almost unbearable burden upon the weak - crushing them.  Howl rages

against this oppression.  It cries out on behalf of those being crushed.

 

>LITTLE HAS CHANGED????

 

>how bout the madness of the American dream for black males in America?

 

it has always been my experience from where I am from that the quest for

the american dream is maddening for black males.  Affirmative Action (and I

would prefer to keep the discussion of this contraversial topic to a

minimum) has done little to change the dogmas of society.  I say this sadly

because it should not be the way it is.  But maybe that's idealism akin to

the Beat Homestead Vision of JK.

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:46:16 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: I'm fine

 

lol i know

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of RACE ---

Sent:   Friday, October 10, 1997 12:02 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: I'm fine

 

Donald E. Winters wrote:

> 

> Sherry: No, I'm fine, but thanks for the offer. Donald

 

rotflmao

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:47:02 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Course at Berkeley

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997101009523775@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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I don't know Holmes.  What's he like?  Also, I've ben checking out stuff

from the library by Burroughs, looking through _The Yage Letters_ and

_The Naked Lunch_.  I wanted to get _Junkie_, but its in special

collections which means that it can only be seen there.  You can't check

it out.  Anyway,  what's _Junkie_ like?

 

Tristan

 

On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> I'd add John Clellon Holmes' articles on the Beat Generation and his novel

 "Go.

> "

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:59:12 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: I'm fine

 

yup  <grinning>

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of RACE ---

Sent:   Friday, October 10, 1997 11:46 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: I'm fine

 

Sherri wrote:

> 

> oops, it appears i somehow replied to a private message via Beat-l, dunno

how

> that happened.  ghosts in the machine...  sorry Donald must've thought that

> was weird coming from someone you've never talked to.  anyway, i apologize.

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

 

the soft machine ... dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:13:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      hysterical and naked

Comments: cc: burke-L <Burke-L@siu.edu>

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by the way, since Kenneth Burke was friends with that other new jersey

poet, i started mentioning some things about this thread over on the

Burke-L.

 

Diane's assertion that everyone can identify with HOWL got my brain a

clicking cuz KB's huge advancement in rhetorical theory revolutionizing

the 20th centry communication studies environments across america is

basically a simple computer calculation.  In the history of rhetorical

theory for every mention of term "persuasion" replace "identification".

The thread i'm suggesting is to turn the tables so to speak and consider

an Affective dimension to Attitude in the Burkean Pentad.  Don't know if

it will fly.  I told them i was framing the meditation for the day

through the Terministic Screens of "Hysterical" and "Naked".

 

The difficulty with both of these terms is that while everyone can

"identify" with a word like "hysterical" the Affective dimension of

these attitudes may be "diametrically opposed."

 

as for naked.  it is obviously not a term that is merely talking about

an unclothed body which causes similar confusion and perhaps reflects

part of the beauty and yet societal misundestanding of the late William

Seward Burroughs endless novel that will drive everybody MAD, Naked

Lunch.

 

thoughtfully to both listservs.

david bruce rhaesa

salina, Kansas

TIAA-Disabled

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:40:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Howl

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Levi Asher wrote:

 

> 

> 

> Funny, that's also my other favorite poem of the 20th century.

> Interesting coincidence since T. S. Eliot was really a very un-beat

> poet, wasn't he?

> 

> ------------------------------------------------------

> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

> 

 

Levi:

 

It would seem on the surface that he was not beat by any stretch.

Rinaldo will not put him on the list.  But, he seemed to strive for the

same essence of truth beneath his structure.  I think as Charles P

pointed out, he had to go to Pound to add the structure.  Maybe if he

had proper guidance, he coulda woulda shoulda.  Prufrock just speaks to

me in such a powerful way.  It, like HOWL, seems to transcend the writer

and take on its own life.  Most honor Wasteland, but to me HOWL and

Prufrock are the ones that I can read any day, any mood, any time.  They

do not let me down.

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:52:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      sanity

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I do not believe it is possible to be "sane" in this world.  There are

those who, like Dylan, accept the world as it is and are excellent

reporters, but I have to wonder about his life and sanity.  There are

others who crave "normal" and lie to themselves about who and what they

are.  Most of us are somewhere in between and that is why we need poets

and David R.  ;-)

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:34:57 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: hysterical and naked

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RACE --- wrote:

> 

> as for naked.  it is obviously not a term that is merely talking about

> an unclothed body which causes similar confusion and perhaps reflects

> part of the beauty and yet societal misundestanding of the late William

> Seward Burroughs endless novel that will drive everybody MAD, Naked

> Lunch.

> 

 

Dave,

 

Good point.

Less emphasis on physical nakedness and more on emotional nakedness.

Starkness. Rawness, to the point of heightened vulnerability.

 

I'm surprised no overly feminist readers haven't jumped on

"hysterical"...if one really wanted to make a wild accusation, one would

say that word adds to the anti-female theme with hysterical retaining

its original meaning from the dark ages, that being 'madness, just cos

she's a woman.' I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, it's just some

random musing.

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:33:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      TIME Article on Buddhism

 

After joining in on the castigation of SPIN for thier superficial and silly

obituary of William Burroughs, it was a pleasure to read, in this weeks TIME,

a genuinely informative article on American Buddhism.  I'm sure someone on

this list probably did not like it, but I thought the TIME article was

informative and fair, way beyond stereotypes and celebrity chic (OK, there

were lots of photos of Brad Pitt, but the text did not dwell on his sex

appeal).

 

The article talks a little about the role of Kerouac, Snyder and Ginsberg in

introducing Buddhism to this side of the Pacific.  I think its kinda nice

that TIME credits the beats with something serious, given all those articles

in the 1950's that stereotyped them as mindless bongo playing,smelly, sex

maniacs.

 

Anyway, I recommend the TIME article as a decent introduction to American

Buddhism, at least for folks like me that are interested in the topic but

don't have much direct knowledge or experience with it.

 

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:54:07 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder Reading

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Thanks you Gary for this more thorough report on the Snyder reading.

We'll get together next time.

 

James Stauffer

 

Gary Mex Glazner wrote:

> 

> Dear James and Beat List,

> 

> Standing ovation at the end of last nights

> reading of Mountains and Rivers Without End,

> Gary Snyder's electric master piece...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:03:08 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Leonard Cohen (Re: Gary Snyder Reading)

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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> >

> amici,

> i've read an article concerned Leonard Cohen (now zen monk Leonard C.)

> living in the Rinzai Zen Buddhism Center at Mt. Baldy L.A., it's the

> same place attended by gary snyder?

> a week ago i noted a book written about an interviewed Gary Snyder,

> the book is translated in italian by a the "Abele Circle" a catholic

> group devoted to pacifism,

 

Rinaldo,l

 

Thanks for the interesting note.  I hadn't followed Leonard enough to

know of this incarnation.  As far as I know, and I am open to further

knowledge on this, Snyder is not involved with the Mt. Baldy Zen

operation near LA.  His own zendo is the "Ring of Bone Zendo"--an

allusion I take it to his friend Lew Welch.  Most of Snyder's serious

Buddhist training was done in Japan.  You are no doubt familiar with the

mediation center in Marin which is described in Dharma Bums and with his

roots in San Francisco Buddhist circles such as those of Allan Watts,

Richard Baker and East/West House.

 

I am not suprised at the Roman Catholic connection.  There is alot of

interchange between Zen and Catholic intellectuals--especially the

Jesuits at least here in California.  A number of Jesuit priests are

also Zen masters.

 

Good to hear from you Rinaldo.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:17:24 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: hysterical and naked

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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RACE --- wrote:

 

 . . . In the history of rhetorical

> theory for every mention of term "persuasion" replace "identification".

> The thread i'm suggesting is to turn the tables so to speak and consider

> an Affective dimension to Attitude in the Burkean Pentad.  Don't know if

> it will fly.  I told them i was framing the meditation for the day

> through the Terministic Screens of "Hysterical" and "Naked".

> 

> The difficulty with both of these terms is that while everyone can

> "identify" with a word like "hysterical" the Affective dimension of

> these attitudes may be "diametrically opposed."

> 

> as for naked.  it is obviously not a term that is merely talking about

> an unclothed body which causes similar confusion and perhaps reflects

> part of the beauty and yet societal misundestanding of the late William

> Seward Burroughs endless novel that will drive everybody MAD, Naked

> Lunch.

 

 

David,

 

You've lost me completely here, perhaps my Kenneth Burke is too far in

the distant past.  Isn't the "Affective" dimension almost always the

territory of poetic language?  Why would these "attitudes be

'diametrically opposed'"?

 

I did follow Adrian's nice allusion to the roots of "hysteria" in

gynocology, but I am lost in this Burkean stuff.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:35:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: hysterical and naked

 

 Just like in those old days, weekend beatniks have to reorient themselves

to another world they enter when a  week's work is over and done with.  Hey,

I didn't say the GOOD old days...

 

I expect theSunday trip in the park will be a familiar world this time

around, but Burkean Pentads?  Something to do with fifths of some kind? Next

thing you will tell us David, is that you are not a heavy thinker either,

just like those poems were not made by a literary person, hmmm. Lots of

things to redefine here, but as always I love to be along for the ride when

your genius is tripping. Persuasion, identification are a bit bumpy, on a

dimension of affection? affective dimension? By the time I  get to the

Pentad I got ta hang on to my seat.

 

leon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 4:18 PM

Subject: hysterical and naked

 

 

 

>by the way, since Kenneth Burke was friends with that other new jersey

>poet, i started mentioning some things about this thread over on the

>Burke-L.

> 

>Diane's assertion that everyone can identify with HOWL got my brain a

>clicking cuz KB's huge advancement in rhetorical theory revolutionizing

>the 20th centry communication studies environments across america is

>basically a simple computer calculation.  In the history of rhetorical

>theory for every mention of term "persuasion" replace "identification".

>The thread i'm suggesting is to turn the tables so to speak and consider

>an Affective dimension to Attitude in the Burkean Pentad.  Don't know if

>it will fly.  I told them i was framing the meditation for the day

>through the Terministic Screens of "Hysterical" and "Naked".

> 

>The difficulty with both of these terms is that while everyone can

>"identify" with a word like "hysterical" the Affective dimension of

>these attitudes may be "diametrically opposed."

> 

>as for naked.  it is obviously not a term that is merely talking about

>an unclothed body which causes similar confusion and perhaps reflects

>part of the beauty and yet societal misundestanding of the late William

>Seward Burroughs endless novel that will drive everybody MAD, Naked

>Lunch.

> 

>thoughtfully to both listservs.

>david bruce rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

>TIAA-Disabled

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:52:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: hysterical and naked

Comments: cc: burke-L <Burke-L@siu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

>  Just like in those old days, weekend beatniks have to reorient themselves

> to another world they enter when a  week's work is over and done with.  Hey,

> I didn't say the GOOD old days...

> 

> I expect theSunday trip in the park will be a familiar world this time

> around, but Burkean Pentads?  Something to do with fifths of some kind? Next

> thing you will tell us David, is that you are not a heavy thinker either,

> just like those poems were not made by a literary person, hmmm. Lots of

> things to redefine here, but as always I love to be along for the ride when

> your genius is tripping. Persuasion, identification are a bit bumpy, on a

> dimension of affection? affective dimension? By the time I  get to the

> Pentad I got ta hang on to my seat.

> 

> leon

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 4:18 PM

> Subject: hysterical and naked

> 

> >by the way, since Kenneth Burke was friends with that other new jersey

> >poet, i started mentioning some things about this thread over on the

> >Burke-L.

> >

> >Diane's assertion that everyone can identify with HOWL got my brain a

> >clicking cuz KB's huge advancement in rhetorical theory revolutionizing

> >the 20th centry communication studies environments across america is

> >basically a simple computer calculation.  In the history of rhetorical

> >theory for every mention of term "persuasion" replace "identification".

> >The thread i'm suggesting is to turn the tables so to speak and consider

> >an Affective dimension to Attitude in the Burkean Pentad.  Don't know if

> >it will fly.  I told them i was framing the meditation for the day

> >through the Terministic Screens of "Hysterical" and "Naked".

> >

> >The difficulty with both of these terms is that while everyone can

> >"identify" with a word like "hysterical" the Affective dimension of

> >these attitudes may be "diametrically opposed."

> >

> >as for naked.  it is obviously not a term that is merely talking about

> >an unclothed body which causes similar confusion and perhaps reflects

> >part of the beauty and yet societal misundestanding of the late William

> >Seward Burroughs endless novel that will drive everybody MAD, Naked

> >Lunch.

> >

> >thoughtfully to both listservs.

> >david bruce rhaesa

> >salina, Kansas

> >TIAA-Disabled

> >.-

> >

 

howdy leon,

 

how was work this weak?  caught your note crediting diane with

resurrecting beat-l with a HOWL.  tonight's insomnia more directed

towards "WHOOPS" ...!

 

did you REALLY know DEAN MORIARTY?

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:56:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      a tidbit of KB on Rutherford

Comments: To: burke-L <Burke-L@siu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Chapter the Eleventh:

 

William Carlos Williams, 1883-1963

 

"Some 40 years earlier, when I [KB] had haggled with him [WCW] about

this slogan (which is as basic to an understanding of him as the

statement of poetic policy he makes several times in his writings, 'No

ideas but in things'), the talk of 'contact' had seemed most of all to

imply that an interest in local writing and language should replace my

absorption in Thomas Mann's German and Andre Gide's French.  Next, it

suggest a cult of "Amurricanism" just at the time when many young

writers, copying Pound and Eliot, were on the way to self-exile in

Europe while more were soon to follow.  (I mistakenly thought that I was

to be one of them.)  Further, it seemed to imply the problematical

proposition that one should live in a small town like Rutherford rather

than in the very heart of Babylon (or in some area that, if not central

to the grass roots of the nation, was at least close to the ragweed)."

 

Language As Symbolic Action ...

 

so can anybody explain what this means.  A guy once said Firewalk

reminded of WCW -- i said "SURE!"... It was certainly not amerrucanism

more intergallactic twister game.

 

i am after some contemplation of the matter choosing to take a quarter

mg of halperidol this evening.

 

love,

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:01:02 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

 Hello Bruce,

 

I think it was you Bruce who asked me that question. It's been so long. I

didn't forget it though. Why did I think that Neal's letter did not resemble

the same portrait that emerged from the Last Time I Committed Suicide? What

made it more difficult for me was the fact that the portrait that the movie

painted did not jibe with my knowledge of the man. I got to be sure here i

am comparing the movie to the letter, not the man.

 

Can't do that completely either, so let me acknowledge  to begin with that I

take the letter with a grain of salt also. I can't separate it totally from

the man who spilled his heart out over long lonely months that did not

retreat from constant motion, or the man who was real close by in the years

that followed. I read the letter and I see the Neal that I knew speak of the

BIG CONFLICT in his life, which was saint and sinner. Yes heavily flavored

by his childhood mentors, the people who cared for him, the  catholic

priests and the whores. The people who fired his intense imagination and

even more intense involvement in what to run to and what to run from in

living his life. So I read in a lot of that in his letter. I don't see a man

who is yearning for the life of a man with family and prosperity, who just

keeps falling down on the steep climb up the the hill to his goal that moves

farther and farther out of his reach. Not at all. It may well be that what I

see in the letter is what I expect him to have in mind when he did what he

did and how he talked about his life.

 

When You said that it seems to you the movie is faithful to the letter, I

decided to look at the letter very thoroughly.

 I don't think that there is any controversy or question that the movie

paints a very clear picture of a man who yearned for the good life and just

lost it because he was too weak to resist the life and friendships of the

pool hall.  A loser.

 

The letter that I am looking at is in The First Third by Neal Cassady, City

Lights 1971, 1981,  pp 146 to 160.

 

I find only one reference that could possibly suggest dreams of marital

bliss.

 

"Oh sad sack, o unpleasant time; Had I just not guzzled that last beer all

the following would not be written and I could end thid story 'and they

lived happily ever after' "

 

Sounds to me like a classical fairy tale happy ending tagged on, not like

anything that has reality in his life. The letter does come alive when he

moves away from the torturous belittling of himself, I am so weak, I am so

weak, i want to be good but I can't help myself. Doesn't seem to be much of

his real life, his joys and pains in it. When he talks about those vague,

ill understood concepts the words are couched in language that is like from

ancient classical myths. He is like chewing hard on concepts that come to

him from a very foreign world that he was dispossesed from. He is giving a

lot of consideration to the phantasies of all the good things that they

claim to be there, might be there,  were not available to him, but none of

thosse things mean much to him when it comes to his real life. The things

that those others have, including not just their money, but also their

values, ways and beliefs. His talk about those things is vague. For example

"and she fretted that the production of more babies - when we get the

money" - would prove difficult. I reassured her on all counts, swore my love

(and meant it) and finally we returned to the livingroom.

    Oh, unhappy mind; trickster! O fatal practicality!..."

 

 When invited by that "good looker" to dinner, his heart "jumped with guilty

joy", no mention of marital bliss. "I felt again that choking surge flooding

me as when first I'd seen her." Sounds to me like lust, not "honorable

intentions".

 

 

I could go on and on. I

 went through the whole letter a couple of times looking for something that

might change my mind, but all I found is more and more of the same.

 

I don't know why you feel that the movie accurately portrays the letter, but

hopefully I get across to you why I see it as I do.

 

Better late than never. At least you can see that I gave some real

consideration to your question.

 

--

 

 

 

> 

>Bruce

>bwhartmanjr@iname.com

>http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

> 

>P.S.  HELLO, Senor Tabory!

> 

>----------

>> From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

>> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>> Subject: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

>> Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 1:15 PM

>> 

>>      The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg:

>> 

>>      Produced and Directed by Jerry Aronson

>> 

>>      you can purchase a copy from First Run Features by calling

>>      1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.

>>      This is the one that was shown in theaters, I have rented it

>>      from my local art theatre/video place.

>>      It does have the Buckley footage.

>>      Note:

>>      When I was at the Ginsberg tribute at Naropa in '94

>>      Jerry Aronson showed out-takes from the film which was

>>      basically the extended Ginsberg and Burroughs dialogue.

>>      It was great.

>>      Also saw "Pull my Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?

>> 

>>      SDY

>>      syoung@dsw.com

>>      ______________________________ Reply Separator

>>      _________________________________

>>      Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

>> Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at

>Internet

>> Date:    9/18/97 12:50 PM

>> 

>> 

>> At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>> >I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art theatre.

>>As

>> some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about

>>15-20

>> minutes edited from the original film.  The most priceless portion >of

>the

>> entire film wasn't shown on PBS.  The scene involved AG chanting >and

>> playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show.  AG was totally >into

>> his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled >AG

>on

>> the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes >interact.

>> >

>> >

>> >Denis Alcock

>> >

>> Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage.  Is the footage you

>> are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh special?

>> 

>> 

>>                                                 -Jon

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:45:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> Yes, Derek, war, money, molloch -- all the same.   I don't agree that "Howl"

 is

> addressed more to men than women.  If it's a matter of repression, women, of

 co

> urse, were repressed by 1950s society even more than men, though ironically

 wom

> en (except for those like Elise Cowen & Di Prima who rebelled) were

 instruments

> of that repression in some ways -- supporting move to suburbs, materialistic

 li

> festyles, work ethic and mainstream man-in-the-grey-flannel-suit values.  At

 le

> ast this is one theme that runs through Beat literature.

 

but isn't it a sort of intellectually elitstist attitude creting its own

hierarch y to suggest thos e who CHOOSE to move to the suburgbs ain't

part of the best minds?

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:55:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

>  Hello Bruce,

> 

> I think it was you Bruce who asked me that question. It's been so long. I

> didn't forget it though. Why did I think that Neal's letter did not resemble

> the same portrait that emerged from the Last Time I Committed Suicide? What

> made it more difficult for me was the fact that the portrait that the movie

> painted did not jibe with my knowledge of the man. I got to be sure here i

> am comparing the movie to the letter, not the man.

> 

> Can't do that completely either, so let me acknowledge  to begin with that I

> take the letter with a grain of salt also. I can't separate it totally from

> the man who spilled his heart out over long lonely months that did not

> retreat from constant motion, or the man who was real close by in the years

> that followed. I read the letter and I see the Neal that I knew speak of the

> BIG CONFLICT in his life, which was saint and sinner. Yes heavily flavored

> by his childhood mentors, the people who cared for him, the  catholic

> priests and the whores. The people who fired his intense imagination and

> even more intense involvement in what to run to and what to run from in

> living his life. So I read in a lot of that in his letter. I don't see a man

> who is yearning for the life of a man with family and prosperity, who just

> keeps falling down on the steep climb up the the hill to his goal that moves

> farther and farther out of his reach. Not at all. It may well be that what I

> see in the letter is what I expect him to have in mind when he did what he

> did and how he talked about his life.

> 

> When You said that it seems to you the movie is faithful to the letter, I

> decided to look at the letter very thoroughly.

>  I don't think that there is any controversy or question that the movie

> paints a very clear picture of a man who yearned for the good life and just

> lost it because he was too weak to resist the life and friendships of the

> pool hall.  A loser.

> 

> The letter that I am looking at is in The First Third by Neal Cassady, City

> Lights 1971, 1981,  pp 146 to 160.

> 

> I find only one reference that could possibly suggest dreams of marital

> bliss.

> 

> "Oh sad sack, o unpleasant time; Had I just not guzzled that last beer all

> the following would not be written and I could end thid story 'and they

> lived happily ever after' "

> 

> Sounds to me like a classical fairy tale happy ending tagged on, not like

> anything that has reality in his life. The letter does come alive when he

> moves away from the torturous belittling of himself, I am so weak, I am so

> weak, i want to be good but I can't help myself. Doesn't seem to be much of

> his real life, his joys and pains in it. When he talks about those vague,

> ill understood concepts the words are couched in language that is like from

> ancient classical myths. He is like chewing hard on concepts that come to

> him from a very foreign world that he was dispossesed from. He is giving a

> lot of consideration to the phantasies of all the good things that they

> claim to be there, might be there,  were not available to him, but none of

> thosse things mean much to him when it comes to his real life. The things

> that those others have, including not just their money, but also their

> values, ways and beliefs. His talk about those things is vague. For example

> "and she fretted that the production of more babies - when we get the

> money" - would prove difficult. I reassured her on all counts, swore my love

> (and meant it) and finally we returned to the livingroom.

>     Oh, unhappy mind; trickster! O fatal practicality!..."

> 

>  When invited by that "good looker" to dinner, his heart "jumped with guilty

> joy", no mention of marital bliss. "I felt again that choking surge flooding

> me as when first I'd seen her." Sounds to me like lust, not "honorable

> intentions".

> 

> I could go on and on. I

>  went through the whole letter a couple of times looking for something that

> might change my mind, but all I found is more and more of the same.

> 

> I don't know why you feel that the movie accurately portrays the letter, but

> hopefully I get across to you why I see it as I do.

> 

> Better late than never. At least you can see that I gave some real

> consideration to your question.

> 

> --

> 

> >

> >Bruce

> >bwhartmanjr@iname.com

> >http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

> >

> >P.S.  HELLO, Senor Tabory!

> >

> >----------

> >> From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

> >> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> >> Subject: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

> >> Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 1:15 PM

> >>

> >>      The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg:

> >>

> >>      Produced and Directed by Jerry Aronson

> >>

> >>      you can purchase a copy from First Run Features by calling

> >>      1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.

> >>      This is the one that was shown in theaters, I have rented it

> >>      from my local art theatre/video place.

> >>      It does have the Buckley footage.

> >>      Note:

> >>      When I was at the Ginsberg tribute at Naropa in '94

> >>      Jerry Aronson showed out-takes from the film which was

> >>      basically the extended Ginsberg and Burroughs dialogue.

> >>      It was great.

> >>      Also saw "Pull my Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?

> >>

> >>      SDY

> >>      syoung@dsw.com

> >>      ______________________________ Reply Separator

> >>      _________________________________

> >>      Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

> >> Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at

> >Internet

> >> Date:    9/18/97 12:50 PM

> >>

> >>

> >> At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

> >> >I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art theatre.

> >>As

> >> some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about

> >>15-20

> >> minutes edited from the original film.  The most priceless portion >of

> >the

> >> entire film wasn't shown on PBS.  The scene involved AG chanting >and

> >> playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show.  AG was totally >into

> >> his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled >AG

> >on

> >> the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes >interact.

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >Denis Alcock

> >> >

> >> Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage.  Is the footage you

> >> are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh special?

> >>

> >>

> >>                                                 -Jon

> >.-

> >

 

hey LEON,

 

thanks for the post last night your a lifesaver literally and

figuratively.

 

wondering why BIG CONFLICT is capitalized?

wondering what you mean by big

wondering what you mean by conflict

wondering if big is idifferent than large and huge

wonderifg if conflict is different than conflagaration

 

basically wondering this morning....

gonna walk over to filling station and sit in the booth and read colin

Powell.

 

funny just found out i'm living within the space of the Johnson family.

My landlords name is Marvin Johnson so i'm replacing my view of realtors

from Dylans Dar landlord and beginning to sit quietly and listen to

leonard cohen's death of a ladies man for the first time with an quiet

mind.

 

thanx again for last night.

 

oh pentad five a basiclly not certain what it means but if you're at a

convention of buke scholars you just say penta d or pentadic ever y five

minutes or so :)

 

Long term memory now:

KB says that the meaning of literature varies dramatically based on the

ratios of the pentadic terms...

they are

scene

agency

act

and two others .... :)

 

so in on the road, if the ratio is scene over act, the interpretation

will be the visual imagery and the interactivity of the gang will be

secondary.  on the other hand the converse flip flop would make DEAN who

DEAN is.  Visions of Cody can be seen as the same novel as On the Road

but from a heavy on the ACT side of the pentads....capisce (sp?)

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:31:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      For William c. wililams fans only [Fwd: Re: a tidbit of KB on

              Rutherford]

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announcement

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annoucnement

 

dbr

 

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Message-ID:  <343F5CA1.77073DA9@siu.edu>

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:01:54 -0500

Reply-To: dblake@SIU.EDU

Sender: Kenneth Burke Discussion List <BURKE-L@SIU.EDU>

From: David Blakesley <dblake@SIU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: a tidbit of KB on Rutherford

To: BURKE-L@SIU.EDU

 

Re. Burke and Williams, here's my take, but first an announcement of related

interest.  The William Carlos Williams Society has a special session devoted

to Burke/WCW planned for this year's MLA in Toronto.  Full details will be

posted later to the Burke-L website, but here's the slate:

 

**************

WCW and Burke session

Monday, 29 December, 12 noon - 1:15pm, Quebec Room, Royal York

 

Brian Bremen, UT Austin:  "Reading Williams Reading Burke Reading Hume"

David Blakesley, SIUC:  "'Sour Grapes Plus':  WCW's Influence on Kenneth

Burke"

Mark C. Long, U Washington:  "Tending to the Imagination:  Perspective and

Incongruity in WCW and Burke"

Miriam Clark, Auburn U:  "Williams, Burke, and American Poetry after

Modernism"

***************

 

David asked about what Burke had in mind when he referred to his old (and

later revised) disagreement with Williams re. the importance of "place" as a

defining element of art.  In the early twenties, Burke railed against those

who sought to define a uniquely "American" literature in terms of content

alone, what he later calls and David quotes, "Amurricanism" (see "Chicago

and our National Gesture" in _The Bookman_, 1922).  KB believed that a

healthy "gesture" would have to distinguish itself in terms of form.

 

Burke and WCW corresponded for forty years, beginning in 1921, and

throughout that time they returned to this issue many times.  But they

seemed to find happy disagreement on it without resolving it..  Burke saw in

Williams someone who was not simply a "no ideas but in things" poet, but

someone who had combined that penchant with an urgent need for formal

experimentation.  Williams countered with interested and inveterate

questioning of Burke's "damned philosophizing" and even tried to sway him

with his forties poem, "At Kenneth Burke's Place."

 

FWIW, my MLA paper will look closely at Williams's particular influence on

Burke's _A Rhetoric of Motives_, which was direct and (of course I think)

profound.

 

Hope this helps,

Dave

 

RACE wrote: [snip]

 

> so can anybody explain what this means.  A guy once said Firewalk

> reminded of WCW -- i said "SURE!"... It was certainly not amerrucanism

> more intergallactic twister game.

> 

> i am after some contemplation of the matter choosing to take a quarter

> mg of halperidol this evening.

> 

> love,

> david

 

 

 

--

************************************************************************

David Blakesley

Director of Writing Studies in English

Southern Illinois University-Carbondale

 

Visit the Virtual Burkeian Parlor (home of "Burke-L") at

 

http://www.siu.edu/departments/english/acadareas/rhetcomp/burke/index.html

 

************************************************************************

 

 

--------------66F52D4C5FC3--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:10:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      "Looking For Jack" news at TKQ!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi there! News on this book plus page update are now available at:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:29:08 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

-----Original Message-----

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 5:01 AM

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

 

 

>Leon Tabory wrote:

>> 

>>  Hello Bruce,

>> 

>> I think it was you Bruce who asked me that question. It's been so long. I

>> didn't forget it though. Why did I think that Neal's letter did not

resemble

>> the same portrait that emerged from the Last Time I Committed Suicide?

What

>> made it more difficult for me was the fact that the portrait that the

movie

>> painted did not jibe with my knowledge of the man. I got to be sure here

i

>> am comparing the movie to the letter, not the man.

>> 

>> Can't do that completely either, so let me acknowledge  to begin with

that I

>> take the letter with a grain of salt also. I can't separate it totally

from

>> the man who spilled his heart out over long lonely months that did not

>> retreat from constant motion, or the man who was real close by in the

years

>> that followed. I read the letter and I see the Neal that I knew speak of

the

>> BIG CONFLICT in his life, which was saint and sinner. Yes heavily

flavored

>> by his childhood mentors, the people who cared for him, the  catholic

>> priests and the whores. The people who fired his intense imagination and

>> even more intense involvement in what to run to and what to run from in

>> living his life. So I read in a lot of that in his letter. I don't see a

man

>> who is yearning for the life of a man with family and prosperity, who

just

>> keeps falling down on the steep climb up the the hill to his goal that

moves

>> farther and farther out of his reach. Not at all. It may well be that

what I

>> see in the letter is what I expect him to have in mind when he did what

he

>> did and how he talked about his life.

>> 

>> When You said that it seems to you the movie is faithful to the letter, I

>> decided to look at the letter very thoroughly.

>>  I don't think that there is any controversy or question that the movie

>> paints a very clear picture of a man who yearned for the good life and

just

>> lost it because he was too weak to resist the life and friendships of the

>> pool hall.  A loser.

>> 

>> The letter that I am looking at is in The First Third by Neal Cassady,

City

>> Lights 1971, 1981,  pp 146 to 160.

>> 

>> I find only one reference that could possibly suggest dreams of marital

>> bliss.

>> 

>> "Oh sad sack, o unpleasant time; Had I just not guzzled that last beer

all

>> the following would not be written and I could end thid story 'and they

>> lived happily ever after' "

>> 

>> Sounds to me like a classical fairy tale happy ending tagged on, not like

>> anything that has reality in his life. The letter does come alive when he

>> moves away from the torturous belittling of himself, I am so weak, I am

so

>> weak, i want to be good but I can't help myself. Doesn't seem to be much

of

>> his real life, his joys and pains in it. When he talks about those vague,

>> ill understood concepts the words are couched in language that is like

from

>> ancient classical myths. He is like chewing hard on concepts that come to

>> him from a very foreign world that he was dispossesed from. He is giving

a

>> lot of consideration to the phantasies of all the good things that they

>> claim to be there, might be there,  were not available to him, but none

of

>> thosse things mean much to him when it comes to his real life. The things

>> that those others have, including not just their money, but also their

>> values, ways and beliefs. His talk about those things is vague. For

example

>> "and she fretted that the production of more babies - when we get the

>> money" - would prove difficult. I reassured her on all counts, swore my

love

>> (and meant it) and finally we returned to the livingroom.

>>     Oh, unhappy mind; trickster! O fatal practicality!..."

>> 

>>  When invited by that "good looker" to dinner, his heart "jumped with

guilty

>> joy", no mention of marital bliss. "I felt again that choking surge

flooding

>> me as when first I'd seen her." Sounds to me like lust, not "honorable

>> intentions".

>> 

>> I could go on and on. I

>>  went through the whole letter a couple of times looking for something

that

>> might change my mind, but all I found is more and more of the same.

>> 

>> I don't know why you feel that the movie accurately portrays the letter,

but

>> hopefully I get across to you why I see it as I do.

>> 

>> Better late than never. At least you can see that I gave some real

>> consideration to your question.

>> 

>> --

>> 

>> >

>> >Bruce

>> >bwhartmanjr@iname.com

>> >http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

>> >

>> >P.S.  HELLO, Senor Tabory!

>> >

>> >----------

>> >> From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

>> >> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>> >> Subject: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

>> >> Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 1:15 PM

>> >>

>> >>      The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg:

>> >>

>> >>      Produced and Directed by Jerry Aronson

>> >>

>> >>      you can purchase a copy from First Run Features by calling

>> >>      1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.

>> >>      This is the one that was shown in theaters, I have rented it

>> >>      from my local art theatre/video place.

>> >>      It does have the Buckley footage.

>> >>      Note:

>> >>      When I was at the Ginsberg tribute at Naropa in '94

>> >>      Jerry Aronson showed out-takes from the film which was

>> >>      basically the extended Ginsberg and Burroughs dialogue.

>> >>      It was great.

>> >>      Also saw "Pull my Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?

>> >>

>> >>      SDY

>> >>      syoung@dsw.com

>> >>      ______________________________ Reply Separator

>> >>      _________________________________

>> >>      Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

>> >> Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at

>> >Internet

>> >> Date:    9/18/97 12:50 PM

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>> >> >I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art theatre.

>> >>As

>> >> some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about

>> >>15-20

>> >> minutes edited from the original film.  The most priceless portion >of

>> >the

>> >> entire film wasn't shown on PBS.  The scene involved AG chanting >and

>> >> playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show.  AG was totally

>into

>> >> his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled

>AG

>> >on

>> >> the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes

>interact.

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >Denis Alcock

>> >> >

>> >> Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage.  Is the footage

you

>> >> are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh

special?

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>                                                 -Jon

>> >.-

>> >

> 

>hey LEON,

> 

>thanks for the post last night your a lifesaver literally and

>figuratively.

> 

>wondering why BIG CONFLICT is capitalized?

>wondering what you mean by big

>wondering what you mean by conflict

>wondering if big is idifferent than large and huge

>wonderifg if conflict is different than conflagaration

> 

>basically wondering this morning....

>gonna walk over to filling station and sit in the booth and read colin

>Powell.

> 

>funny just found out i'm living within the space of the Johnson family.

>My landlords name is Marvin Johnson so i'm replacing my view of realtors

>from Dylans Dar landlord and beginning to sit quietly and listen to

>leonard cohen's death of a ladies man for the first time with an quiet

>mind.

> 

>thanx again for last night.

> 

>oh pentad five a basiclly not certain what it means but if you're at a

>convention of buke scholars you just say penta d or pentadic ever y five

>minutes or so :)

> 

>Long term memory now:

>KB says that the meaning of literature varies dramatically based on the

>ratios of the pentadic terms...

>they are

>scene

>agency

>act

>and two others .... :)

> 

>so in on the road, if the ratio is scene over act, the interpretation

>will be the visual imagery and the interactivity of the gang will be

>secondary.  on the other hand the converse flip flop would make DEAN who

>DEAN is.  Visions of Cody can be seen as the same novel as On the Road

>but from a heavy on the ACT side of the pentads....capisce (sp?)

> 

>dbr

>.-

> 

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:26:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

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Sherri wrote:

> 

> i'd agree, except that the scholars of money are still operating on the old

> "defense"-economy notions.  this country still spends vast amounts of money on

> things related to the military....  and instead of sending young boys out to

> the slaughter, this economy is killing hopes, dreams, families, quality of

> life (and people, too) just as surely as any bit of war machinery killed

> soldiers.

> 

> seems to me they're still VERY closely related.

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

> 

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Diane Carter

> Sent:   Thursday, October 09, 1997 12:16 PM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: Madness/Howl

> 

> > Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> >

> > just a few thougt s and a way of getting discussion going and what not -

> > after i rcently exposed my girlfreind to "howl" and ginsberg for the

> > first

> > time she was uncertain how to take it - she knew she was attracted to

> > the

> > poetics and the cadence (first played her ginsberg reading w/ kronos

> > quartet) but she had a few problems esp. with the lines about the "one

> > eyed shrew" and what seemed to her a mysiginist attitude towards women.

> > (she didnt know that ginsberg was gay & that in fact most of the beat

> > authors were gay/bisexual or at least rather tolerant - not to bring up

> > the "was kerouac gay" arguement tho...) the more she & i listened the

> > more

> > she

> > realized that the poem didnt really seem to be talking to women at all.

> > it

> > seemed to be more of an address to men (like whitman was an address to

> > men??) & the pressures of performance and expectations that are placed

> > upon society (& esp. male society in 1950's) as seem by an

> > intellectual, sexual outsider (altho saying that wouldnt elsie - that

> > was

> > her name, right? friend of joyce johnson's - be considered one of the

> > "best minds" in ginsberg's opinion - he didnt preface and introduce her

> > poems to city lights journal at one point...)

> I don't see really good poems or really good writing as addressing male

> or female issues or as being written for men or women.  All really great

> writing addresses human-ness, the common place were are all at simply by

> virtue of being human.

> 

>         and as for the scholars of war and the scholars of money - i

> > think

> > that come 1955 and the rise of the American world-state (USA as major

> > world power - one could argue - only was solidified after the atomic

> > bomb

> > and the creation of the " us and them" attitude of late 40's early

> > 50's,

> > as well as the strength of the american economy post WWII, due to

> > efforts

> > to retain levels of warproduction and the creation of the consumer

> > state )

> > couldnt you say that the idea of seperating the "scholars of war" and

> > the

> > "scholars of money" rather futile? they are one & the same in post WII

> > US

> > culture, are the not? (for instance - the creation of the "disposable

> > car"

> > thatis, a car with models that change after a few yrs and the

> > introduction

> > of various colours, etc & the importnace of keeping up to date - was a

> > conscious effort by the manufacturers and the US government to keep the

> > economy at the same levels of production as they were during the war,

> > thus

> > providing jobs & security for both returning vets as well as

> > governmental

> > contractors...) so is there really a difference b/t war & money?

> > hallucination & reality?

> > but i suppose i digress...

> 

> I agree that in the time Ginsberg wrote Howl it would be futile to

> separate money and war.  I think that today in the U.S. with war more

> or less shoved into the background, that the scholars of money would be a

> more appropriate target.

> DC

 

i'm becoming more of a scientist every day so i's gonna suggest an

interesting experience.  get a classroom full of students together --

frosh in college will do, and run the VIDEO of Speeches of Dwight David

Eisenhower CONCURRENTLY with the fourth cd of HOLY SOUL JELLY ROLL ASHES

AND BLUES by Allen (i don't know his middle name) Ginsberg.

 

just a thought?

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:34:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Moloch and David R

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> David:

> 

> You are here so you are already part of Moloch. Are you going to evolve

> from there? :-)

> 

> I know who you are, go big green machine.  Be back in 2001, eh?  Is that

> cryptic enough for you? ;-)

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> 

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

2001 ???

time is a relative commodity.

 

"When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a

minute.  But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute - and it's longer

than any hour.  That's relativity."  -- Albert Einstein

 

"I have my best ideas while shaving" -- Albert Einstein

 

i didn't shave today cuz i'm trying to slow down :)

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:33:17 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: "Looking For Jack" news at TKQ!

 

In a message dated 97-10-11 09:55:22 EDT, you write:

 

<< Hi there! News on this book plus page update are now available at:

 http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html >>

 

taken from the web page:

 

"To truly understand the Beat spirit," saysMel Ash, "you must be Beat,

in the same way that you cannot know what an orange tastes like from

simply reading about it." An emotional, cerebral, and maybe even bodily

experience, this book is your orange, take a bite. Its ISBN # for

ordering is 0-87477-880-8 and costs $15.95. You acn order by calling

1-800-788-6262.

 

um, to be beat, would you not have to do more than to, say, just read?

it's a clever markerting cloy, but somewhat disconcerting.......

and i'm a newbie to the beat generation in general, so i may have some

questions along the way......

what does the word "pentad" signify?

 

spinney

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:52:09 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Oops, apologies,

              last one was a mistake. Re: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

Accidentally pulled the trigger on last one. I am sorry. Please ignore it

everyone,

 

While I apologize let me also apologize for calling the subject Ginzburg in

a post about Neal of the movies. I will respond to the issues you raise,

David, about  my response. What's this drug you took last night, the

Philosopher's stone? Can't resist a pun. O.K., so it is not a good one,

still a pun though.

 

Thanks David

 

leon--

 

--Original Message-----

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

To: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 7:29 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

 

 

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:10:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: "Looking For Jack" news at TKQ!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:33 AM 10/11/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-10-11 09:55:22 EDT, you write:

> 

><< Hi there! News on this book plus page update are now available at:

> http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html >>

> 

>taken from the web page:

> 

>"To truly understand the Beat spirit," saysMel Ash, "you must be Beat,

>in the same way that you cannot know what an orange tastes like from

>simply reading about it." An emotional, cerebral, and maybe even bodily

>experience, this book is your orange, take a bite. Its ISBN # for

>ordering is 0-87477-880-8 and costs $15.95. You acn order by calling

>1-800-788-6262.

> 

>um, to be beat, would you not have to do more than to, say, just read?

>it's a clever markerting cloy, but somewhat disconcerting.......

>and i'm a newbie to the beat generation in general, so i may have some

>questions along the way......

>what does the word "pentad" signify?

> 

>spinney

>I wrote it as I got it my friend. . .marketing ploy or not, it's in print

because the audience of the genre demands this kind of material. We cannot

complain when someone introduces their work into the literary world, it's

the only way scholarship and culture moves along (rd this meaning anything

in art). Thanks, Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:59:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: "Looking For Jack" news at TKQ!

 

In a message dated 97-10-11 10:52:56 EDT, you write:

 

<< >I wrote it as I got it my friend. . .marketing ploy or not, it's in print

 because the audience of the genre demands this kind of material. We cannot

 complain when someone introduces their work into the literary world, it's

 the only way scholarship and culture moves along (rd this meaning anything

 in art). Thanks, Paul. . .

 "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                            Henry David Thoreau >>

as far as the introducing goes, you hear no complaint from me; i thrive on

books, new ideas, and such&such......but we(or at least i choose to) whenever

i read adjectives and titilating blurbs describing a book, in an attempt to

manipulate my emotions towards purchasing a selection.....let me instead read

a selection from a book itself, let the author speak to me; that's who should

engage my emotions, convince me that his/her words should dominate my

thoughts for the next few hours, days, or weeks........

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:58:25 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Bentz, Dylan, Pound and an ancient bookstore in Venice.

In-Reply-To:  <343ECB15.D9AA6C95@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

amici,

 

ezra pound told us that the centre of the universe is

a point at Venice where Rio San Trovaso meets the

Canale della Giudecca. by this place there's a "squero",

a wooden building where an artisan constructs the gondolas.

i passing a lot of time near this Rio and near the squero

there's a mooring stake & during the 70's until early '80s

attached at the stake was a Popeye puppet, pretty big &

evident. always amazed, i think ezra pound had a smile

seeing this irreverent venetian...

 

however the center of the universe doesn't clash the

centre of venice. this centre was discovered by a bookseller

in his own shop, the center of venice was marked by an

ancient column and it's between the Rialto Bridge &

S. Marco Square. the bookseller hid the column 'cuz annoyed by

tourists, now a friend of mine told me that the young son of

the bookseller has removed the voile. the bookstore is

the anciest bookstore in venice and named "Tarantola" at

Campo S. Luca...

 

buona domenica e cari saluti a tutti,

rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:04:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bentz, Dylan, Pound and an ancient bookstore in Venice.

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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> 

> amici,

> 

> ezra pound told us that the centre of the universe is

> a point at Venice where Rio San Trovaso meets the

> Canale della Giudecca. by this place there's a "squero",

> a wooden building where an artisan constructs the gondolas.

> i passing a lot of time near this Rio and near the squero

> there's a mooring stake & during the 70's until early '80s

> attached at the stake was a Popeye puppet, pretty big &

> evident. always amazed, i think ezra pound had a smile

> seeing this irreverent venetian...

> 

> however the center of the universe doesn't clash the

> centre of venice. this centre was discovered by a bookseller

> in his own shop, the center of venice was marked by an

> ancient column and it's between the Rialto Bridge &

> S. Marco Square. the bookseller hid the column 'cuz annoyed by

> tourists, now a friend of mine told me that the young son of

> the bookseller has removed the voile. the bookstore is

> the anciest bookstore in venice and named "Tarantola" at

> Campo S. Luca...

> 

> buona domenica e cari saluti a tutti,

> rinaldo.

 

i stare at the picturepostcard you send me of Pounds Centre of universe

with every keystroe, every work, every error ... still the best postcard

i've got in long time...

 

thanks again Rinaldo,

 

david bruce rhaesa

salina, Kansas 67401

USA

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:38:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat Course at Berkeley

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.HPP.3.91.971010124118.8183A-100000@csun1.csun.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I'm now reading _Junky_.  I think it gives insight into WSB's life, the

preface tells you alot.  Have you read Kerouac?  WSB has a "tell it like

it is" style but he's conscious of punctuation and doesn't have the

spontaneous prose style of Kerouac.  He gives you a good feel of the

times.  It isn't an expensive book...$10.95 or something like that.  I

can't give you much yet because I'm not done with it.

 

On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, tristan saldana wrote:

 

> I don't know Holmes.  What's he like?  Also, I've ben checking out stuff

> from the library by Burroughs, looking through _The Yage Letters_ and

> _The Naked Lunch_.  I wanted to get _Junkie_, but its in special

> collections which means that it can only be seen there.  You can't check

> it out.  Anyway,  what's _Junkie_ like?

> 

> Tristan

> 

> On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> > I'd add John Clellon Holmes' articles on the Beat Generation and his novel

>  "Go.

> > "

> >

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:45:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Kerouac turned me on to Thelonious Monk.  Anyone else know *good* jazz?

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:02:48 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide

 

-----Original Message-----

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 5:01 AM

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

 

> 

>hey LEON,

> 

snip

 

>wondering why BIG CONFLICT is capitalized?

 

Because I thought that saints were the champions in his mind in the arena of

life, struggling with the evils of sinfulness. That that was the struggle

that counted for most in his mind. He was impressed from very early in life

with extreme opposing models for these things. The orphan kid didn't have

the stabilizing influences of comforting parents with common sense to

protect and guide him. In that vacuum stepped in strangers with very strong

adult opposing notions about sin and pleasure, painted in very dramatic

terms. The first things that he told me about himself was that since he was

a little kid he wanted to be a monk. I wanted to emphasize that I never saw

him to  really care much about sober minded practicalities of family life,

but that the disparities between good and evil were the conflicts that

dominated his life. Some time I hope to lay out some notions i have

developed about why marijuana and other drugs became such a big factor in

his life (our lives).

 I didn't attach any importance to the words big or large, or any word that

might  suggest the importance of the issue to him..

>basically wondering this morning....

 

>gonna walk over to filling station and sit in the booth and read colin

>Powell.

> 

>funny just found out i'm living within the space of the Johnson family.

>My landlords name is Marvin Johnson so i'm replacing my view of realtors

>from Dylans Dar landlord and beginning to sit quietly and listen to

>leonard cohen's death of a ladies man for the first time with an quiet

>mind.

> 

>thanx again for last night.

> 

>oh pentad five a basiclly not certain what it means but if you're at a

>convention of buke scholars you just say penta d or pentadic ever y five

>minutes or so :)

 

>Long term memory now:

>KB says that the meaning of literature varies dramatically based on the

>ratios of the pentadic terms...

>they are

>scene

>agency

>act

>and two others .... :)

> 

>so in on the road, if the ratio is scene over act, the interpretation

>will be the visual imagery and the interactivity of the gang will be

>secondary.  on the other hand the converse flip flop would make DEAN who

>DEAN is.  Visions of Cody can be seen as the same novel as On the Road

>but from a heavy on the ACT side of the pentads....capisce (sp?)

> 

For a moment there I thought you said capsized. Jess kidding. Heady stuff.

Capisce slightly, but not too well. I try to grasp such concepts, but more

often than not I am left with disconnected strands dangling in the shadows

of my mind.

 

Ciao, happy Sunday

 

leon

>dbr

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:05:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      LEON = The GODfather (was Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

>  Heady stuff.

> Capisce slightly, but not too well. I try to grasp such concepts, but more

> often than not I am left with disconnected strands dangling in the shadows

> of my mind.

> 

> Ciao, happy Sunday

> 

> leon

> >dbr

> >.-

> >It is Saturday at noon and you're already into Sunday!!!???  Thanks for the

 note.  Only understanding i have of capisce is from watching GODFATHER MOVIES

 WAY TOO MANY TIMES FOR ANYONES MENTAL WELL BEING :)

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:18:57 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      The  Johnstons

 

-----Original Message-----

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 5:01 AM

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

 

> 

>funny just found out i'm living within the space of the Johnson family.

>My landlords name is Marvin Johnson so i'm replacing my view of realtors

>from Dylans Dar landlord and beginning to sit quietly and listen to

>leonard cohen's death of a ladies man for the first time with an quiet

>mind.

> 

 

Reminds me of Luke Kelly's Johnston Family project. I wonder how that is

going.

 

Hi Luke, you around? Anything happening in the Johnston family?

 

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:40:08 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Dear Leon,

 

    You had already responded to my original query of what in particular

didn't jive between the letter and the movie.  I've been trying my damnedest

to get a response back to you, but time seems to be so difficult to find

lately.  Barely enough time to read, certainly not enough time to write.

    After hearing your explanation of it, I have to agree with you.  While

the movie was visually dazzling, and beautifully acted, the decision by the

screenwriter and director to hammer the idea that Neal was searching for the

perfect family was far from accurate, and betrayed the the letter as it was

written.

    This brings up an interesting question in my mind: do filmmakers have a

responsibility to the movie-watching public to stay as true to the reality

of a "based on such & such" movie as is humanly possible?  Oliver Stone

comes to mind quickest of all for who has no problem taking liberties with

history, putting his own spin on the story as it comes to him.  How many

novels and short stories have been bent from from their original intent?

 

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

The Trane Station

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:51:26 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      We Would Be Two Men.

In-Reply-To:  <343ECB15.D9AA6C95@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

We Would Be Two Men     by John Wieners

 

Lost in his arms for two days,

I find my secret passions rewarded;

melting, blended as before

receiving kisses as from a King of the Black Sea,

no-one able to compete with his necessity.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:09:46 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Let's Discuss Something

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> RACE wrote:

 

> Could you give brief biographical information on that opening section

> in

> a few days?  Who are these best minds and why were they the best?  What

> is meant exactly by DESTROYED! ????

 

I think that the ideas of madness and destroyed run much deeper than one

might originally think.  First of all we have traditional views of

madness within the psychiatric realm, delusional, unable to live day to

day because of it, with Ginsberg's mother and Carl Solomon falling into

this realm, for which at the time shock treatments and lobotomies were

commonplace, which more often than not left the mind more destroyed than

it had been in the beginning.  Maybe Leon has some thoughts about this

psychological definition of things.  We also have Ginsberg, as a young

man, thrown into this environment personally.  Then there's the idea that

having certain thoughts made one mad.  Ginsberg's "I can't stand my own

mind."  The turmoil of knowing that one's own thoughts will not be

accepted in the greater world out there.  Not accepted in America.

Perhaps not even accepted by oneself.  The idea that if I told someone

what I really think they would think me mad, insane, they would lock me

away.

 

And then added to that what I see when I read "I saw the best minds of my

generation, destroyed by madness.  Starving hysterical naked, dragging

themselves through the Negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix."

The people of this generation who are creative and intelligent, yet on

the outside of society, destroyed by the seeming necessity of fitting in

and having to lead so called normal lives.  The madness of the poet who

must seek to find eternity, must seek the truth in his vision, but is

pushed back in every attempt by the ignorance of America.  The person who

almost starving for truth, stripped of all else,is naked and alone

searching for the fix, not only drug-type fix but the answers to the

question of what life is all about.  We are all caught in our own

madness, but madness is in fact a good thing, that which keeps us alive

and well in our struggle against being destroyed by the scholars of money

and war.  What, Donald Winters in his post also pointed at as "holy

madness" that which perhaps seeks the eternal and the infinite, a

different vision, that many within society cannot accept and seek to

destroy.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:19:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: howling a declaration ...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

RACE --- wrote:

> 

> as i meditate the differences between Howl and Declaration of

> Independence, it seems that there are many rhetorical similarities.

> more and more i am convinced that it is the rhetorical situation which

> is the main discerning factor between the two...especially in the areas

> of rhetorical character and analysis of various audiences....

> 

> i also sense that i may have hit something stronger than initially

> considered in the comment concerning Goldwater.  His "Conscience of the

> Majority" is perhaps a good rhetorical piece to consider as

> "counter-HOWL" ... a philosophy which though failing in 64 continued to

> grow a cultural constituency until its mantel was taken by Reagan.  The

> conservatism of America today reflects Goldwater conservatism as the

> dominant politico-cultural paradigm.  Howl on the other hand currently

> is resigned to a much smaller and receding audience.  A sad observation,

> in my mind, i must admit but i sense that there is something to it...

> 

> perhaps someone could have fun with the two texts at the cut-up machine

> over on Big.Table....perhaps it would take but a tad of salt and pepper

> to the resulting texts to come up with a Statement for the Present.

> 

> david

 

god what a nerd this david is :)

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:42:15 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Course at Berkeley

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.95.971011113512.7094A-100000@reality.tessier.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Hey this is helpful.  Thank you for your thoughts.  _Junkie_ it is.

Right now I'm flipping through _Naked_ and my favorite line is "The

needle is not important."

 

Tristan

 

On Sat, 11 Oct 1997, Dana Lee Kober wrote:

 

> I'm now reading _Junky_.  I think it gives insight into WSB's life, the

> preface tells you alot.  Have you read Kerouac?  WSB has a "tell it like

> it is" style but he's conscious of punctuation and doesn't have the

> spontaneous prose style of Kerouac.  He gives you a good feel of the

> times.  It isn't an expensive book...$10.95 or something like that.  I

> can't give you much yet because I'm not done with it.

> 

> On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, tristan saldana wrote:

> 

> > I don't know Holmes.  What's he like?  Also, I've ben checking out stuff

> > from the library by Burroughs, looking through _The Yage Letters_ and

> > _The Naked Lunch_.  I wanted to get _Junkie_, but its in special

> > collections which means that it can only be seen there.  You can't check

> > it out.  Anyway,  what's _Junkie_ like?

> >

> > Tristan

> >

> > On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

> >

> > > I'd add John Clellon Holmes' articles on the Beat Generation and his novel

> >  "Go.

> > > "

> > >

> >

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:04:20 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: your mail

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.95.971011114450.7154A-100000@reality.tessier.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 11 Oct 1997, Dana Lee Kober wrote:

 

> Kerouac turned me on to Thelonious Monk.  Anyone else know *good* jazz?

 

If you want a pianist who'll make your ears fall off, find some Art Tatum

recordings. Horowitz himself was impressed.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:03:11 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: LEON = The GODfather (was Re: The Last Time I Committed

              Suicide

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:05:29 -0500

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

>Subject:      LEON = The GODfather (was Re: The Last Time I Committed

Suicide

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>Leon Tabory wrote:

>>  Heady stuff.

>> Capisce slightly, but not too well. I try to grasp such concepts, but

more

>> often than not I am left with disconnected strands dangling in the

shadows

>> of my mind.

>> 

>> Ciao, happy Sunday

>> 

>> leon

>> >dbr

>> >.-

>> >It is Saturday at noon and you're already into Sunday!!!???

 

I am getting excited about the rebein?, bein reborn?,  I wonder what

it's going to be like tomorrow, Sunday in San Francisco, where we will

be trying to celebrate the thirtieth anniversary of the Summer of Love,

which is trademarked by Bill Graham Productions and licensed for one

dollar for this belated celebration that almost didn't happen until da

mayor stepped in. We must be becoming the source of votes to be reckoned

with. Anyway, happy Sunday is on my mind. Thirty years ago I went there

with the lady who later became the mother of my children and tomorrow I

am going with our beautiful daughter and her fiancee. Hopefully we will

meet James and maybe  run into a few other listers on the scene.

It should be fun. I was going to backchannell you this one, but decided

Beat-L's in far flung places probably like to hear about these things

also.

 

> note.  Only understanding i have of capisce is from watching GODFATHER

MOVIES

> WAY TOO MANY TIMES FOR ANYONES MENTAL WELL BEING :)

 

 

The movies made me do it, or is it kept me from doing it. At least they

are good ones or you wouldn't be watching them, right?

 

 

>dbr

 

 

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:11:21 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      I WALK UNDER THE DISTANT STARS by John Wieners

In-Reply-To:  <343ECB15.D9AA6C95@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        I WALK UNDER THE DISTANT STARS  by John Wieners

 

         I walk under the distant stars

     as I did when a child with my brother; as I did

     with Wallace on Grant Street in those long, cool

          San Francisco nights, that seemed

                        to have no edges --

                          only avenues

                of columns and evergreens,

                   without walls.

 

        I look up and see the spaces

                        between stars

                and think of the mists and miles across them,

                what we would traverse to be together:

 

                        It brings me back to Churchill Street

                        coming home from the store

                        eyes up at the dense clusters

                        that sputter in the night,

 

        And I think again of the question that dwells

                        in our minds about the plan

        behind man, his place in the universe and the

                        universe, its place in man.

 

        And I am left as at eight yrs. old

        with the wonder of what makes it all,

                the infinity between each light

                and the eternity of one.

        And I am dumb with the question.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:23:03 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hi Bruce,

 

Glad I wasn't wrong about it. I have no problem with people making

movies any way they like to make them. I have no problem with different

audiences having different tastes about what or why they like in movies.

 

I do have a problem with people drawing very incorrect conclusions about

who and what very significant influences in our continuing history,

based upon misleading projected images.

 

I believe that we need to start dealing with issues about information

communicated to vast masses. We could use more reliability in what we

learn second hand about influential people.

 

It seems toi me certainly very desirable to air these issues out. I

think it is one of the wonderful things about lists such as ours.

 

leon

 

 

 

>Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:40:08 -0000

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

>Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>Dear Leon,

> 

>    You had already responded to my original query of what in

particular

>didn't jive between the letter and the movie.  I've been trying my

damnedest

>to get a response back to you, but time seems to be so difficult to

find

>lately.  Barely enough time to read, certainly not enough time to

write.

>    After hearing your explanation of it, I have to agree with you.

While

>the movie was visually dazzling, and beautifully acted, the decision by

the

>screenwriter and director to hammer the idea that Neal was searching

for the

>perfect family was far from accurate, and betrayed the the letter as it

was

>written.

>    This brings up an interesting question in my mind: do filmmakers

have a

>responsibility to the movie-watching public to stay as true to the

reality

>of a "based on such & such" movie as is humanly possible?  Oliver Stone

>comes to mind quickest of all for who has no problem taking liberties

with

>history, putting his own spin on the story as it comes to him.  How

many

>novels and short stories have been bent from from their original

intent?

> 

>Bruce

>bwhartmanjr@iname.com

>The Trane Station

>http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:37:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected posting to

              BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU]]

MIME-Version: 1.0

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--------------31E866CA7019

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David seems to be over his posting limit so I am forwarding this post to

the list because I particularly wanted to comment on the "I" that begins

Howl.  I think David is right that an analysis should addresss the I.

Obviously it means I, Allen Ginsberg, the person writing this poem.  But

it also goes beyond that to mean I, the human being.  And at that point

it becomes a communal I for all of us that feel his particular

experience as acutely as he did.  The I also crosses the bounds of time

and crosses all generations.  I did not grow up in the same generation as

Allen Ginsberg, and yet his I now includes me.  "I saw the best minds of

my generation destroyed by madness"  becomes the statement of all

generations, all individuals who embrace his non-conformist attitude and

poetic vision.  That is also why Howl is more than a "period piece,"

because the anger, the vision, and the dream never cease to be relevant.

DC

 

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Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:59:17 -0500

From: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

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guess i'm over my limit.  that's ok.

 

dbr

 

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CC: Beat-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>,

        Bruce Gronbeck <gronbeck@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>,

        APPLE <edappel@epix.net>

Subject: BACK to the "I" in HOWL (was Re: hysterical and naked)

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James Stauffer wrote:

 

> I did follow Adrian's nice allusion to the roots of "hysteria" in

> gynocology, but I am lost in this Burkean stuff.

> 

> J. Stauffer

 

James,

 

to be honest i'm lost in this burkean stuff.  As i have told Apple and

can now tell my old Professor on Burke at the University of Iowa, when

it comes to KB i've always been a total bluffer.  Leon is correct that

it has to do with a fifth - and i really couldn't tell the difference if

it was a fifth on a piano or in a flask -- i just know that if i say

pentad and pentadic every five minutes or so and apply KB to Bob Dylan

my peers think i'm "together" on this shit!  BUT NO!

 

I do believe that the connection between Burke and Howl is meaningful

especially given the "haggling" between KB and AG mentor WCW.  It seems

that WSB took KB's advice all too seriously whether consciously or

unconsciously in not only escaping Amurrricanism but creating

INTERZONE.  Hopefully someday i'll get a diploma from INTERZONE U.!  :)

 

My KB collection was all lost in the FIREWALK save Towards a better life

-- KB's anti-novel -- and Language as symbolic action which i found at

J.Hood's bookstore in Lawrence when i was there with patricia.

 

dbr

 

i thought A's post on hysteria was wonderful.

 

i've stepped backwards a few words in order to slow down my spaceship

and so I am at the word "I" and recalling vividly the report i gave on

George Herbert Mead(e?) for Bruce's Dramaturgy class where i had my only

formal exposure to KB.

 

incidentally, BRUCE has a wonderful copy of Grammar of Motives and

Rhetoric of Motives in combined form.  It is very worn.  Always wondered

if he bought it used <grin>

 

oh, not all was lost in Firewalk.  Also have old brown hardback of

Grammar of Motives also from J.Hood in Lawrence and i just bought

Counter-Statement orange hardback version on my Boulder/Denver book

fiesta!

 

so...i'm as confused as you are.

 

Yesterday the Uly passage of the day Bloom was wondering where he was

from and who he was and whether he was who he had been and whatnot.  I

believe -- in the only sense of the word -- that a "thorough" analysis

of HOWL must begin with who is the "I" in the first word. :)

 

dbr

 

 

--------------714114F45595--

 

 

 

--------------31E866CA7019--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:25:57 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Beat Spirit

 

Look for my review of Mel Ash's "Beat Spirit" in a forthcoming issue of Library

 Journal.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:02:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

Leon and Bruce,

i've been very interested in your discussion and wanted to add my two sense.

I saw the movie and then read the letter so my perspective is probably

completely different then yours. Anyway what i wanted to say is even if the

director stayed as close to the letter as possible, don't you think it would

be extremely diffucult to have an accurate portrayal of Neal? I mean he is a

myth in himself and we, well i for one, haven't found out who "neal" really

is. Whether or not a family, or at least the ideal family, was what he really

strived for, or even his true character. Being the subject of the beats

writing, he is the legend we can only know by their interpretation of him. As

for the director's creative license, it is his vision, based on fact, but

still his vision of the character and what he interpreted from the letter.

 

                                                    ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:22:45 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Let's Discuss Something

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Is this so damn complicated?  I vastly prefer to sit back an let the

first part of Howl speak to me.  Or listen to AG read it. We can

bullshit about RD Laing, and Foucault and Paul Goodman and madness all

we want--the poem, thank god, will stay the same.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:42:32 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Summer of Lovin 30 Years Later

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Leon,

 

I will be seeing you there.  We shall have to see how all that sex,

drugs, rock n roll and spritual searching translates into geriatrichood!

 

Rock on.

 

James

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:12:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU

 

Diane & David:

 

It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat canon

begin with "I":

 

"I saw the best minds of my generation...."

-Allen Ginsberg, HOWL

 

"I first met Dean...."

-Jack Kerouac, ON THE ROAD

 

"I can feel the heat closing in...."

-William S. Burroughs, NAKED LUNCH

 

Your discussions of "I" could apply to all 3 works and writers.  WSB's "the

IS of identity" passage in AH POOK IS HERE also comes to mind.

 

Furtive Regards,

 

Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:35:23 -0500

Reply-To:     vorys@concentric.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

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Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> 

> I also do not see Howl as a "period piece."  It does what most good

> writing does and transcends time.  Do you really see a different America

> today?

> DC

It was a different America for the author when he died. It is daily a

different America for me. No easy mobility in the economy, no cheap

rents in the urban centers, less idealistic of our global role, email as

means of quick communication ... to name a few.

Do you still see America as 50's America?

The poet evolved while the poem is fixed in time. Soon recollections of

Ginsberg will become static and fixed.

What Howl means to you today will be seen differently 30 years from now.

Its only importance is its meaning to you in America today.

Understanding the time and culture it was produced in may reveal

something about the author's intent ... although ultimately how you

interpret it today (even if different from the author) keeps it alive.

Steve

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:29:42 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU

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Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

> 

> Diane & David:

> 

> It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat canon

> begin with "I":

> 

> "I saw the best minds of my generation...."

> -Allen Ginsberg, HOWL

> 

> "I first met Dean...."

> -Jack Kerouac, ON THE ROAD

> 

> "I can feel the heat closing in...."

> -William S. Burroughs, NAKED LUNCH

> 

> Your discussions of "I" could apply to all 3 works and writers.  WSB's "the

> IS of identity" passage in AH POOK IS HERE also comes to mind.

> 

> Furtive Regards,

> 

> Arthur

 

As opposed to "Call me Ishmael"   (I be Ishmael?) or "Stately, Plump . .

."  I (there it goes again) guess we are onto something about narcissm

and the beats?

 

js

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:15:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU

In-Reply-To:  <971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>

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On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

 

> It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat canon

> begin with "I":

 

I find this to be the most remarkable and important impact (literarilly

<pardon the spelling I'm drunk>) of the beats.  It was the brutal honesty

of how life really was for a particular portion of the population.  That

simple fact has completely changed literature since.  Besides from Tom W.,

Hunter S. and the lot making journalism a real creative expression of art,

the way novels are written has changed.  The proliferation of real people

telling their own experiences and struggles has grown exponentially.  You

just wouldn't find the uncomposed (only slightly edited), raw emotion and

expression of everyday life.  The subjective experience has, within it

(the beats allowed the world to discover and as post-modernism would bring

with it screaming into the world), a modicum of generalized reality.  That

there can be such general truth in personal experinece is the kind of

thing to make you believe in God or destiny or some such other head cheese

(see Footnote to Howl if you don't believe me).  Think how many people now

want to tell _their_ story.  This is what made that feasible.  If there is

talent in the telling, there can be something learned about our own lives

and realities from anyone's experience.  Makes people say "I dig".

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:02:26 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU

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I still find this rather unremarkable.  I would appreciate Rinaldo's

help, but I believe that Dante starts the Divine Comedy with this

observation that in the middle of life's journey the following occured.

First person narrative is not new.  The Beat writers certainly did

something rather more personal with it than Dante, more personal than

Proust, more personal than Thomas Wolfe even but this is a progression

of a tendency that goes at least back to the Romantics.  What makes Howl

exceptional has very little to do with the fact that it starts with

"I".

js

 

Alex Howard wrote:

> 

> On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

> 

> > It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat

 canon

> > begin with "I":

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:20:47 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

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Marlene,

 

    The point I was trying to make, and the one I think Leon was trying to

help me with is this:  our less than thoughtful counterparts in everyday

society, the drones who accept the things they see on the big screen and the

little one, are being sold a bill of goods.  I'm concerned about this.  I

want to know the truth, and while TLTICS is truthful in some senses, the

idea that Neal--the inspiration of the beat generation--is looking for some

ideal family, is completely out of tune with what Neal was about.  I thank

Leon for pointing this out to me.

    I like how you say that Neal is a mythological character, and in some

senses I have to agree.  What I don't agree with someone selling me an idea

that is fundamentally incorrect, and on some levels I feel like a goof

because I didn't see it for myself.  The beats weren't about the ideal

family, they recognized early on that this was a false idea: the Eisenhower

era was upon them and they were vigorously calling it a sham with everything

they did.

 

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

The Trane Station

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sunday, October 12, 1997 1:03 AM

Subject: Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

 

 

>Leon and Bruce,

>i've been very interested in your discussion and wanted to add my two

sense.

>I saw the movie and then read the letter so my perspective is probably

>completely different then yours. Anyway what i wanted to say is even if the

>director stayed as close to the letter as possible, don't you think it

would

>be extremely diffucult to have an accurate portrayal of Neal? I mean he is

a

>myth in himself and we, well i for one, haven't found out who "neal" really

>is. Whether or not a family, or at least the ideal family, was what he

really

>strived for, or even his true character. Being the subject of the beats

>writing, he is the legend we can only know by their interpretation of him.

As

>for the director's creative license, it is his vision, based on fact, but

>still his vision of the character and what he interpreted from the letter.

> 

>                                                    ~~Marlene

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:44:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU

Comments: cc: burke-L <Burke-L@siu.edu>

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Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

>   WSB's "the

> IS of identity" passage in AH POOK IS HERE also comes to mind.

> 

> Furtive Regards,

> 

> Arthur

 

trick memory arthur,

 

where is this ah pook located???

 

Interesting that they begin with "I" and colt-45 ends with "I lived."

Wonder if that means anything to anybody :)

 

LEON -- How can a 72 year old man go zooming around at a summer of love

celebration?  I hope i have half as much energy as you do when i move up

from my current 36 to your age.  I guess you'll be older by then -

unless you're one of those who grows younger as time passes like Merlin

and my old mentor donn w. parson.

 

what is the reason for Summer of Love celebration in AUTUMN????  makes

very little sense to me.

 

i saw the best minds of a generation not even able to tell one solstice

from another ... perhaps that's where we're headed~

 

no insomnia tonight folks .

just woke up and checked on way from sofa to bedroom.

 

in the words of the post-Nagasaki BARD (Exterminator):

 

"Do  EZ"

 

david rhaesa

nita #23

five hundred east crawford street

salina, kansas, u.s.a. earth

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:46:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

Comments: To: vorys@concentric.net

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vorys wrote:

> 

> Diane Carter wrote:

> >

> >

> > I also do not see Howl as a "period piece."  It does what most good

> > writing does and transcends time.  Do you really see a different America

> > today?

> > DC

> It was a different America for the author when he died. It is daily a

> different America for me. No easy mobility in the economy, no cheap

> rents in the urban centers, less idealistic of our global role, email as

> means of quick communication ... to name a few.

> Do you still see America as 50's America?

> The poet evolved while the poem is fixed in time. Soon recollections of

> Ginsberg will become static and fixed.

> What Howl means to you today will be seen differently 30 years from now.

> Its only importance is its meaning to you in America today.

> Understanding the time and culture it was produced in may reveal

> something about the author's intent ... although ultimately how you

> interpret it today (even if different from the author) keeps it alive.

> Steve

 

it sounds as if "America" is the "period piece"....

 

dbr

salina, KANSAS

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:05:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU

Comments: cc: burke-L <Burke-L@siu.edu>

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Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

> 

> Diane & David:

> 

> It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat canon

> begin with "I":

> 

> "I saw the best minds of my generation...."

> -Allen Ginsberg, HOWL

> 

> "I first met Dean...."

> -Jack Kerouac, ON THE ROAD

> 

> "I can feel the heat closing in...."

> -William S. Burroughs, NAKED LUNCH

> 

> Your discussions of "I" could apply to all 3 works and writers.  WSB's "the

> IS of identity" passage in AH POOK IS HERE also comes to mind.

> 

> Furtive Regards,

> 

> Arthur

 

odd that Howl doesn't start out with "WE" saw the best minds ... given

the connection between the Beat authors as a "core-group".  Your post

suggests that despite the collective connections between "THE BIG 3",

still a grand sense of individuality is maintained ... the beat

collective does not require an abandonment of self to the "Beat

Pathway".

 

As opposed to the previous Howl in American History "We the people in

order to ..."  "We hold these truths to be self evident" "etc. etc.

etc."

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

Earth!

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:06:18 +0800

Reply-To:     jackbing@pacific.net.sg

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Lim Lee Ching <jackbing@PACIFIC.NET.SG>

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hello? anybody there?

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:20:40 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      the Ego Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected posting to

In-Reply-To:  <971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>

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At 00.12 12/10/97 -0400, Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM> wrote:

>Diane & David:

> 

>It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat canon

>begin with "I":

> 

>"I saw the best minds of my generation...."

>-Allen Ginsberg, HOWL

> 

>"I first met Dean...."

>-Jack Kerouac, ON THE ROAD

> 

>"I can feel the heat closing in...."

>-William S. Burroughs, NAKED LUNCH

> 

>Your discussions of "I" could apply to all 3 works and writers.  WSB's "the

>IS of identity" passage in AH POOK IS HERE also comes to mind.

> 

>Furtive Regards,

> 

>Arthur

> 

amici beat,

 

may i add an "I" quote by William Carlos Williams

the "patron saint" of the beat?

 

at the beginning of "THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL"

William Carlos Williams writes:

 

"                       I.

                   THE FOG.

If there is progress then there is a novel. Without

progress there is nothing. Everything exists from the

beginning. I existed in the beginning.

"

 

saluti e felice settimana a tutti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 09:33:47 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: The "I"'s have it

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God I wish I had a good anthology handy.

 

Great "I" lines keep springing to mind.

 

"Arms and the Man I Sing"-- I guess it could be "I sing arms and the

Man"--don't remember the Latin --Virgil, The Aenid

 

"I think that I shall never see

A poem lovely as a tree " . . .

 

Got to be beat, those two I guess, following our current paridigm

 

JS

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:41:02 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:02:23 -0400

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

>Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>Leon and Bruce,

>i've been very interested in your discussion and wanted to add my two

sense.

>I saw the movie and then read the letter so my perspective is probably

>completely different then yours. Anyway what i wanted to say is even if

the

>director stayed as close to the letter as possible, don't you think it

would

>be extremely diffucult to have an accurate portrayal of Neal? I mean he

is a

>myth in himself and we, well i for one, haven't found out who "neal"

really

>is. Whether or not a family, or at least the ideal family, was what he

really

>strived for, or even his true character.

 

 

 

 Being the subject of the beats

>writing, he is the legend we can only know by their interpretation of

him.

 

For this reason alone it seems important to evaluate such

interpretations against the source material that is claimed to be the

basis for such interpretation.

 

>As

>for the director's creative license, it is his vision, based on fact,

but

>still his vision of the character and what he interpreted from the

letter.

> 

 

Absolutely. Everyone has their own interpretation of any event. I am

interested in other viewpoints than my own. Hwever, that does not mean

that claims made for accuracy of information presented to the public

should not be looked at. All I am saying is that hey, let's have a look

at the same thing that you are looking at and lets see if the

interpretations you make from that material seem justifiable to me. To

you?

 

I can support everything you are saying, except that I don't believe

that the movie's interpretation of the letter is sustainable on some

very important points.

 

leon

>                                                    ~~Marlene

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:56:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Angelo T <ATSUEDE1@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: jazz

 

Charles Mingus

Charlie Parker

John Coletrane

Miles Davis (pre 1976)

Billie Holiday

Art Tatum

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 14:35:41 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Book Announcement

 

City Lights has just issued "The Beat Generation in New York: A Walking

Tour of Jack Kerouac's City" by Bill Morgan.  Eight walking tours

include maps of neighborhoods, subway information, and "an insider's

angle on Jack Kerouac's life in New York.  The book is available from

City Lights (261 Columbus Avenue, San Francisco, CA 94133; 415-362-1041,

fax 415-362-4921).   Price is $12.95+$2.50 postage & handling.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:02:59 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Roy Lichtenstein

In-Reply-To:  <971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura_scienze/licht/comm/comm.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:05:32 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Patti Smith (Peace and Noise)

In-Reply-To:  <971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

http://www.repubblica.it/musica/patty/patty/patty.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 14:36:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      starting with "I'

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Arthur N.: It doesn't seem unusual to me at all that these three major

beat works start with "I" when you consider the. First Person fixation of most

modern American literature: think of "Huckleberry Finn," "Catcher in the Rye,"

most  of Walt Whitman's poetry, etc. etc. American literature has always been

and continues to be obsessed by individualism. Donald

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 14:53:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      the I in American lit.

Mime-Version: 1.0

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The "I" in these works is really no different from the egocentric pronoun that

appears in most modern American literature from "Catcher in the Rye" and

"Huckleberry Finn" to Updike, Hemingway, Vonnegut, etc. etc.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:12:22 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: The "I"'s have it

In-Reply-To:  <971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09.33 12/10/97 -0700, James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET> wrote:

>God I wish I had a good anthology handy.

> 

>Great "I" lines keep springing to mind.

> 

>"Arms and the Man I Sing"-- I guess it could be "I sing arms and the

>Man"--don't remember the Latin --Virgil, The Aenid

> 

>"I think that I shall never see

>A poem lovely as a tree " . . .

> 

>Got to be beat, those two I guess, following our current paridigm

> 

>JS

> 

 

---

        Vergilii Aenis

 

                I

 

        Arma virum que cano, Troiae qui primus ab oris

        Italiam fato profugus Lavinaque venit

        litora, multum ille et terris iactatus et alto

        vi superum, saevae memore Iunonis ob iram,

5       multa quoque et bello passus, dum conderet urbem

        inferretque deos lation; genus unde Latinum

        Albanique patres atque altae moenia Romae.

...

---

 

Federica "Kikka" Ferrieri says:

        In english the personal pronoun is generally expressed.

        In italian there's non  need. Infact you can understand

        the person from the verb and in greek or latin is the

        same thing. Probably the english translation of Aenid by

        Virgilio sounds like that "I say the weapons and the man..."

        because you are not allowed to omitt it. But us a matter

        of fact in latin it is not in such an emphatic position.

        If it was it would be "Ego arma virumque cano.."

---

dear friends,

i hope the above mentioned Kikka's thought regard Aenid can help,

saluti a tutti da rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:27:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: the I in American lit.

In-Reply-To:  <34412ad16935616@mhub2.tc.umn.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Its not mearly the presence and use of 1st person that makes the Beat use

of it unique.  In many ways its not, but it was the investment of the

author's life, character, and beliefs behind that "I" that I find highly

influential in contemporary culture and literature.  The fact that "I" was

a real person/speaker telling the story/communicating the idea as opposed

to the 1st person narrator not necessarily having anything to do with the

person writing.  Though this was true in many cases, I find there to be

much more of a fictionalization of accounts and characters in previous

cases.  Not that the Beats were the first to do it, but they were people

who wanted to tell their own personal stories and ideas.  They also

happened to be brilliant and talented (in most cases).  I say simply that

they made the personal pronoun personal again and that their use of it had

a tremendous impact on fiction/non-fiction/poetry/film/music that has come

since.  Not that they solely are responsible either, but that they were

incredibly significant in expanding and exploding the phenomenon.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:33:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mitchell Smith <Praetor77@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat Spirit

 

Might you be posting that too the group? Or is it too long?

 

mjs

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:39:57 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      cassady in yahoo

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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hey everybody neal has his own yahoo category under literary fiction

authors or something. it's a brand new listing which contains a li.

kicks page, wild bohemian page, and two others.

just an update,

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:13:48 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Karen Eblen <keblen@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: jazz

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Benny Carter

Coleman Hawkins

 

>Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:56:09 -0400

>Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From:         Angelo T <ATSUEDE1@AOL.COM>

>Subject:      Re: jazz

>To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>Charles Mingus

>Charlie Parker

>John Coletrane

>Miles Davis (pre 1976)

>Billie Holiday

>Art Tatum

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:41:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      November Kerouac Cover of the Month!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Page updated once more! New Cover of the Month for November. Please keep

them coming! Go to:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/member/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

 

    Thanks to all! Paul of TKQ. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:31:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: November Kerouac Cover of the Month!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> 

> Page updated once more! New Cover of the Month for November. Please keep

> them coming! Go to:

> 

> http://www.freeyellow.com/member/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

> 

>     Thanks to all! Paul of TKQ. . .

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

I got a "404 Not Found

 

The requested URL was not found on this server:

 

/member/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

(d:/member/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html)

 Is there another address I should try.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:05:51 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: November Kerouac Cover of the Month!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:31 PM 10/12/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>> 

>> Page updated once more! New Cover of the Month for November. Please keep

>> them coming! Go to:

>> 

>> http://www.freeyellow.com/member/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

>> 

>>     Thanks to all! Paul of TKQ. . .

>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

Sometimes the server is down but not for long. The direct address to the

cover is:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page5.html

 

Just keep on trying! Thanks, Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:14:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: November Kerouac Cover of the Month!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I got a 404 message when I jumped form the e-mail ; the page is definitely

up and running.

 

Check this out and let me know if it works now...Thanks, P.

 

 

    http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:49:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: November Kerouac Cover of the Month!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

worked.  thanks. interesting cover, looks very modern.  what year?

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:28:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: November Kerouac Cover of the Month!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:49 PM 10/12/97 -0500, you wrote:

>worked.  thanks. interesting cover, looks very modern.  what year?

>p

> 

Quartet Books, London: 1973

Illustration by Ron Kirby

 

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:32:55 -0500

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      ON THE ROAD AGAIN

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Sign off.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:48:39 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: The "I"'s have it

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Rinaldo and Kikka

 

I knew I could count on you guys to help us out--trapped in an

egocentric language.

 

Wonderful, those words.

 

js

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> >

> 

> ---

>         Vergilii Aenis

> 

>                 I

> 

>         Arma virum que cano, Troiae qui primus ab oris

>         Italiam fato profugus Lavinaque venit

>         litora, multum ille et terris iactatus et alto

>         vi superum, saevae memore Iunonis ob iram,

> 5       multa quoque et bello passus, dum conderet urbem

>         inferretque deos lation; genus unde Latinum

>         Albanique patres atque altae moenia Romae.

> ...

> ---

> 

> Federica "Kikka" Ferrieri says:

>         In english the personal pronoun is generally expressed.

>         In italian there's non  need.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:02:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Beat Catalogue Now Online

 

Our Beat catalogue of new and used books, videos, audio, etc. is now

available online...Check it out at http://www.waterrowbooks.com

We still have a limited amount of official Beat-L T-shirts left....and when

they're gone, they're really gone!

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:12:51 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

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Just an Update from the Left Coast Indian Summer of Love event in the

city today which I enjoyed with Leon and his charming and absolutely

stunning daughter.  Wonderful day in the city, warm and clear. Wondering

whether the concept was going to work until the chemicals kicked in and

then it had majical, wonderfully funny moments.

 

Too many people couldn's make it because of strokes or heart problems.

Kesey, Ram Dass, and Ray Manzarek to name three.  Didn't see any Hell's

Angels but we had a couple of stunning Blue Angels flyovers.  Those of

us with good hearts had a good time.  Must be the largest crowd Country

Joe has played in a hell of along time.  But it really didn' matter what

was happening on stage.  The show was everywhere.  Lots of survivors

doing just fine, thank you.  Obligatory White Rabbit and Purple Haze.

But the drum circle was better.

 

And always a treat to spend time with Leon, the Godfather, Tabory.  I

wore my Beat-L tee shirt proudly and I think we did the colors proud.

 

Thanks again Leon and Rameh. Always nice to watch the paisley swirl

above those Windmills.

 

James Stauffer, slowly circling for a landing . . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:03:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> Thanks again Leon and Rameh. Always nice to watch the paisley swirl

> above those Windmills.

> 

> James Stauffer, slowly circling for a landing . . .

 

this is the tower.  all is clear to bring it home on this list.  i will

say that those stuffy burkeans won't want ya in there airport but nice

to see some students are actually talking on their list too now! :)  it

was advertised as in the words of KB "an undending conversation" ...

lots of month long stutters if you ask me.  to an illiterati the junk

that's been connected already with the first lines of HOWL have been

wonderfully enlightening.  not certain what you mean by "paradigm"? :)

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:17:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The "I"'s have it

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> God I wish I had a good anthology handy.

> 

> Great "I" lines keep springing to mind.

> 

> "Arms and the Man I Sing"-- I guess it could be "I sing arms and the

> Man"--don't remember the Latin --Virgil, The Aenid

> 

> "I think that I shall never see

> A poem lovely as a tree " . . .

> 

> Got to be beat, those two I guess, following our current paridigm

> 

> JS

 

don't forget:

"I was born a poor black child..."  ??? steve martin ???

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:33:48 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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David,

> 

> this is the tower.  all is clear to bring it home on this list.

 

Thanks for the all clear, still circling however, and I mistyped the

young ladies name which should have been Ramah . . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:28:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> David,

> >

> > this is the tower.  all is clear to bring it home on this list.

> 

> Thanks for the all clear, still circling however, and I mistyped the

> young ladies name which should have been Ramah . . .

 

happy landings.  tower headed for the sack.  is there a good

beatliterature poem on going to bed after scaring all friends in the

universe with insomnia?  nominations from the gallery i hope!!! :)

 

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:42:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      I "SAW" ....

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before going to bed going to expose where my brain is moving ... yes to

the second word of howl.

 

saw

the ineluctible modality of the visibible.

 

i recall past posts on previous threads about the notion of "Visions" by

JK -- wondering about:

 

The "Idea" of "Visions" from the perspective of the CORE BEATS ?

 

The History of the "I Saw" in Literature that informed the Beats ???

 

What anybody thinks about the "i SAW" .... ????!??!!!

 

over and out

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:03:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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shooting with the men 1985

  by patricia elliott

 

The tall thin man

leaps to a crouch

opening fire on his own heart.

 

i watched morgan stand stiff, posed,

ignoring me, for who was she

but some ol sow eyed gal.

I am the ghost, the one that suvived.

 

trying to smell the hidden secrets

in the face of the horrid honest man.

ted was green with fear

 if this was a writer,

 

the tall slim eye once again

baring the tattered muscle,

He led me once and then again up to the gun.

Both of us getting past past.

I shot fast,

He took my hand ,

he sang,

he wept and gave me tears.

 

we walked home through the dark.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 05:24:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> vorys wrote:

 

> Do you still see America as 50's America?

> The poet evolved while the poem is fixed in time. Soon recollections of

> Ginsberg will become static and fixed.

> What Howl means to you today will be seen differently 30 years from >

> now.

> Its only importance is its meaning to you in America today.

> Understanding the time and culture it was produced in may reveal

> something about the author's intent ... although ultimately how you

> interpret it today (even if different from the author) keeps it alive.

> Steve

 

I still question your ideas of "static and fixed," and especially "the

poem is fixed in time."  Certain the meaning of the poem lies within how

you interpret it.  But my interpretation of it today is probably much the

same as those who interpreted it in the fifties and those who will

interpret it 30 years from now.  You asked if I still see America as 50's

America.  The answer to that question is both no and yes.  I certainly

see technological and societal changes.  But I still see America as being

far from what it can be, in the same way that Ginsberg did.  I still see

an America where the gap between affluence and poverty is still great,

greater than it was in the fifties.  I still see the hungry and poor, the

mentally ill, the suicidal, the people crying for help with no where to

go. I still see jails and prisons filled with people whose only crime was

possession of marijuana or drugs of an addiction, not violent crimes.  I

see people who simply can't afford health insurance, dying of illnesses

that could have been treated with proper medical attention.  I see the

plight of the old and the weak and the weary at the hands of a society

that cares more about a basketball player getting 30 million a year than

it does about hungry childen or the homeless. I see an America where

children are afraid of going to school in terror of being shot, an

America where even color and sex still make a difference in where you are

allowed to go and in what you can do. I still see as Ginsberg writes,

"Ashcans and unobtainable dollars! Children screaming under stairways!

Boys sobbing in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!"  I still see

America lifting Molach to Heaven, "They broke their backs lifting Molach

to Heaven! Pavement, trees, radios, tons! lifting the city to Heaven

which exists and is everywhere about us!"  And to go here from Ginsberg

to Diane DiPrima, from her poem "Good Clean Fun"

 

"IS THE ASSAULT ON NATIVE INTELLIGENCE &

GOOD WILL WE CALL THE EVENING

NEWS ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ACT OF TERRIORISM?

 

What was the Gulf War but terriorism

wearing the death mask of order?--

One big car bomb it was

the guys who drove it

are dying now one by one--ignored!

 

Is acid rain a form of terriorism? (Think for yourself.)

Is GATT or NAFTA anything but a pact among brigands--the World Bank, the

   IMP their backup men?

How long before they fight over the spoils?

Who'll do the fighting for them?"

 

I see the dream of what America can be as being a long ways from what

America is.  And I still see the possibility for positive change that is

also the underpinning of Howl.  I think anyone who sees "the poem fixed

in time"  is not truly hearing its words or recognizing the power of

words to transcend time.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:21:47 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      beata solitudo (Abiquiu, New Mexico)

In-Reply-To:  <971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

http://www.christdesert.org/pax.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:52:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James J Stavola <JDSept@AOL.COM>

Subject:      LOOKING FOR HUNCKE

 

    I'm looking for Herbert Huncke's auto-biography "Guilty Of Everything"

published by Paragon House in 1990 which is now out of print.One would think

with the beats being back in the spot light because of the death of Alan and

Bill they would start showing up back in print again.Any suggestions??Also

any readings of the Huncke Reader recently published yet by any

here?Good-Bad-Indifferent????

                                                           Thanks

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:44:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

This is a very moving response.  Thankyou.

 

>> vorys wrote:

> 

>> Do you still see America as 50's America?

>> The poet evolved while the poem is fixed in time. Soon recollections of

>> Ginsberg will become static and fixed.

>> What Howl means to you today will be seen differently 30 years from >

>> now.

>> Its only importance is its meaning to you in America today.

>> Understanding the time and culture it was produced in may reveal

>> something about the author's intent ... although ultimately how you

>> interpret it today (even if different from the author) keeps it alive.

>> Steve

> 

>I still question your ideas of "static and fixed," and especially "the

>poem is fixed in time."  Certain the meaning of the poem lies within how

>you interpret it.  But my interpretation of it today is probably much the

>same as those who interpreted it in the fifties and those who will

>interpret it 30 years from now.  You asked if I still see America as 50's

>America.  The answer to that question is both no and yes.  I certainly

>see technological and societal changes.  But I still see America as being

>far from what it can be, in the same way that Ginsberg did.  I still see

>an America where the gap between affluence and poverty is still great,

>greater than it was in the fifties.  I still see the hungry and poor, the

>mentally ill, the suicidal, the people crying for help with no where to

>go. I still see jails and prisons filled with people whose only crime was

>possession of marijuana or drugs of an addiction, not violent crimes.  I

>see people who simply can't afford health insurance, dying of illnesses

>that could have been treated with proper medical attention.  I see the

>plight of the old and the weak and the weary at the hands of a society

>that cares more about a basketball player getting 30 million a year than

>it does about hungry childen or the homeless. I see an America where

>children are afraid of going to school in terror of being shot, an

>America where even color and sex still make a difference in where you are

>allowed to go and in what you can do. I still see as Ginsberg writes,

>"Ashcans and unobtainable dollars! Children screaming under stairways!

>Boys sobbing in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!"  I still see

>America lifting Molach to Heaven, "They broke their backs lifting Molach

>to Heaven! Pavement, trees, radios, tons! lifting the city to Heaven

>which exists and is everywhere about us!"  And to go here from Ginsberg

>to Diane DiPrima, from her poem "Good Clean Fun"

> 

>"IS THE ASSAULT ON NATIVE INTELLIGENCE &

>GOOD WILL WE CALL THE EVENING

>NEWS ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ACT OF TERRIORISM?

> 

>What was the Gulf War but terriorism

>wearing the death mask of order?--

>One big car bomb it was

>the guys who drove it

>are dying now one by one--ignored!

> 

>Is acid rain a form of terriorism? (Think for yourself.)

>Is GATT or NAFTA anything but a pact among brigands--the World Bank, the

>   IMP their backup men?

>How long before they fight over the spoils?

>Who'll do the fighting for them?"

> 

>I see the dream of what America can be as being a long ways from what

>America is.  And I still see the possibility for positive change that is

>also the underpinning of Howl.  I think anyone who sees "the poem fixed

>in time"  is not truly hearing its words or recognizing the power of

>words to transcend time.

>DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:56:17 +0000

Reply-To:     jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      Huncke Reader

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

THE HERBERT HUNCKE READER is now in bookstores. It's a beautiful

hardcover volume, about 350 pages or so (I don't have it in front of

me), and contains major portions of Huncke's books. The photo of the

elderly Huncke on the dust jacket is haunting...terrifying, and is BEAT

beyond belief.

 

The significance of the publication of the HUNCKE READER for BEAT

enthusiasts cannot be overstated. Huncke's prose embodies the

quintessence of BEAT as well as anything ever published, including

anything written by The Big 3...or 4...or 5...or, whatever. I'll go out

on a limb and compare it to THE FIRST THIRD, by Neal Cassady, since

Huncke, like Cassady, was a PRINCIPLE MUSE to Jack, Allen and Bill.

 

It was from Huncke that the boys took the term BEAT.

It was from Huncke that Bill got his first shot.

It was Huncke who introduced the guys to Kinsey.

It was Huncke...(etc.)

 

Buy this book. And read it. All of it.

 

-John Hasbrouck, Lurkmeister

--

 

 

*** JOHN HASBROUCK

*** Graphic Design & Fingerstyle Guitar in Chicago

*** http://www.tezcat.com/~jhasbro

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:24:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Entropy Operator <rush2@INSTANTLINUX.COM>

Subject:      Re: LOOKING FOR HUNCKE

In-Reply-To:  <971013085235_-260264458@emout17.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

>     I'm looking for Herbert Huncke's auto-biography "Guilty Of Everything"

> published by Paragon House in 1990 which is now out of print.One would think

> any readings of the Huncke Reader recently published yet by any

> here?Good-Bad-Indifferent????

 

 

Check out www.amazon.com and www.a1books.com im sure you'll find it there.

you can find anything at amazon. (i found my 1891 perfect condition first

printing copy of "beethoven's letters" there:)

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Eh yanno she died"

        -- Sid Vicious.. to the medical staff who came to pick up his

                         girlfriend's dead body.

 

                    ----

 

        "Buildings are waterfalls of stone

        That, spurting up with marble crest,

        Are frozen and enchained in air,

        Poised in perpetual rest.

 

        But water seeks its level out.

        So, when these fountains are unbound,

        The cataracts of melting stone

        Will sink into the ground. "

 

-- Louis Ginsberg

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:59:47 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: LOOKING FOR HUNCKE

In-Reply-To:  <971013085235_-260264458@emout17.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>    I'm looking for Herbert Huncke's auto-biography "Guilty Of Everything"

>published by Paragon House in 1990 which is now out of print.One would think

>with the beats being back in the spot light because of the death of Alan and

>Bill they would start showing up back in print again.Any suggestions??Also

>any readings of the Huncke Reader recently published yet by any

>here?Good-Bad-Indifferent????

>                                                           Thanks

 

http://www.bookzen.com/books/068815266X_b.html

 

The Herbert Hunke Reader at BookZen

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 12 Oct 1997 04:24:26 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: The "I"'s have it

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> God I wish I had a good anthology handy.

> 

> Great "I" lines keep springing to mind.

> 

> "Arms and the Man I Sing"-- I guess it could be "I sing arms and the

> Man"--don't remember the Latin --Virgil, The Aenid

> 

> "I think that I shall never see

> A poem lovely as a tree " . . .

> 

> Got to be beat, those two I guess, following our current paridigm

> 

> JS

 

I don't think that any of us are saying that the beats brought "I" to

literature.  You also forgot to include Whitman, who in Song of Myself

begins "I celebrate myself and sing myself."  I do believe, however, that

Ginsberg in Howl took poetry to another level in the use of the I,

consequently expanded to mean myself and my mind.  The song that Ginsberg

was singing, indeed howling to those that would listen, was far different

than anything that had come before it.  Before, the I in poetry was more

what I would call confined, formed into a mold of what I, the poetic

voice was and was expected to be. There were certainly limits to the

language and thoughts that were considered to be poetry. Look at these

lines:

 

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving

        hysterical naked,

dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an

        angry fix,

angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the

        starry dynamo in the machinery of night,

who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat up smoking in the

        supernatural darkness of cold-water flats floating across the

        tops of cities contemplating jazz,

who bared their brains to Heaven under the El and saw Mohammedan angels

        staggering on tenement roofs illuminated,

who passed through universities with radiant cool eyes hallucinating

Arkansas and Blake-light tragedy among the scholars of money and

war,

who were expelled from the academies for crazy & publishing obscene odes

        on the windows of the skull,

who cowered in unshaven rooms in underwear, burning their money in

        wastebaskets and listening to the terror through the wall,

who got busted in their pubic beards returning through Laredo with a

        belt of marijuana for New York,

who ate fire in paint hotels or drank turpentine in Paradise Alley,

        death, or purgatoried their torsos night after night

with dreams, with drugs, with waking nightmares, alcohol and cock and

        endless balls...

 

The I of Howl is the I of previously unspoken thoughts.  The I is the

mind that was destroyed by madness and yet resurrected in the purity of

the poem.  The best minds become the angelheaded hipsters who...The who

then becomes us, each one of us who experienced or identified with  these

things, with this America.  James, the I is not new, but the I standing

there in its utter nakedness was fundamentally new to poetry.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:18:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      howl takes off on burke-L

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Allen Ginsberg is getting his just attention over on the Burke-L.  Today

there was questions about the **** portions which i did my best to

answer.

 

One post said that Howl is perfect to employ KB's "indexing".  I wrote,

"what's indexing".  Ironically, indexing (though i'm vague on it still)

is something KB created in examining Joyce's "Portrait of An Artist As a

Young Man" which DC (who started Howl for me - and thus for BurkeL as

well) just posted me a bunch of stuff about in the underground Ulysses-L

lastnight/this morning.

 

The KBers are wondering about some sort of connection between the ****

and the Carl Solomon portions.  I'm not certain i understand their

questions yet.

 

I am still on the "I saw"....today.  Lots of memories for me because my

"episodes" have involved auditory hallucinations as opposed to visual

ones.  But perhaps the source of the psychoses are something behind the

collective of the phsyical senses?   Today at filling station "I saw"

ironic Time cover about Buddhism.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:34:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: jazz

In-Reply-To:  <971012135522_173003044@emout09.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Chet Baker

Dinah Washington

Sarah Vaughan

Charlie Christian

Lester Young

and a little Louis Jordan and Wynonie Harris thrown in for good measure

Anne Sneddon

 

On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Angelo T wrote:

 

> Charles Mingus

> Charlie Parker

> John Coletrane

> Miles Davis (pre 1976)

> Billie Holiday

> Art Tatum

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:41:01 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: jazz

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971013123337.20411C-100000@pioneer.nevada.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Angelo T wrote:

 

> Billie Holiday

> Art Tatum

 

Can you imagine these two together? Tatum whizzing quietly in background,

Holiday just breathing those notes. Oww.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:35:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aviva Vogel <Aviva99999@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The "I"'s have it

 

DC, I liked your presentation on how the "I" of Beat poetry was unique in its

willingness to "stand naked."  Very clear, well-written, and nicely-put!

 

Thanks, Aviva

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:49:33 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac's bus station torn down

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

As a former Cheyenne,Wyoming native, I was saddened to learn that the bus

station in downtown Cheyenne was recently demolished in an effort to

"yuppify" the area.  This was the station that Kerouac mentions while

passing through Cheyenne in "On the Road," and although it is a rather

peripheral reference, I always took comfort in knowing that "Jack was

there."

The station was built in the latter part of the 19th century and was

a historical monument. Sure, it attracted transients...it was a BUS

STATION, fer cryin' out loud, but I wonder if, when people were fighting

to save it, if anyone mentioned that it had been immortalized in Kerouac's

novel.  If they did, I wonder if it made any difference.  Cities seem to

be on this hell-bent mission to destroy their history because they think

that NEW=GOOD and OLD=BAD.  My current residence is at the top of the

list.  Sad....

Anne Sneddon

LV, NV

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 04:36:43 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: howl takes off on burke-L

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> RACE wrote:

 

> The KBers are wondering about some sort of connection between the ****

> and the Carl Solomon portions.  I'm not certain i understand their

> questions yet.

 

The part "with mother finally ******"  I have always interpreted in a

couple of ways.  With mother finally succombed to her own individual

madness.  With mother finally out of my mind.  I am not sure either

mirrors what Ginsberg intended.  The only connection that I could

speculate on is that Carl Solomon was in perhaps the same position as

Ginsberg's mother in regard to his "madness."  The next line after the

mother line also says, "Ah, Carl, while you are not safe I am not safe,

and now you'll really in the total animal soup of time."  How do I know

that my mind is safe?  How do I NOT know that I may end up in an

institution, in shock treatments, etc. because how different is my mind

from that of my mother's or Carl Solomon's.  I think there is a very real

fear of becoming lost in the depths of one's own mind, and also, the idea

that those in society might think you mad merely for the different kind

of thoughts you have.  "While you are not safe, I am not safe" is a very

powerful statement.

DC

 

 

 

> I am still on the "I saw"....today.  Lots of memories for me because my

> "episodes" have involved auditory hallucinations as opposed to visual

> ones.  But perhaps the source of the psychoses are something behind the

> collective of the phsyical senses?   Today at filling station "I saw"

> ironic Time cover about Buddhism.

> 

> dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:16:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Angelo T <ATSUEDE1@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: jazz

 

In a message dated 97-10-13 15:43:35 EDT, you write:

 

<< > Billie Holiday

 > Art Tatum

 

 Can you imagine these two together? Tatum whizzing quietly in background,

 Holiday just breathing those notes. Oww.

  >>

 

that would be very interesting.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:45:10 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Sign-off instructions

 

Several sign-off messages have been posted to Beat-l recently.  You

can't sign off by posting to Beat-l.  To sign off, send mail to

listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu.  Leave the subject line blank.  In the body of

your mail type unsubscribe beat-l.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:46:59 -0500

Reply-To:     vorys@concentric.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> >

> > Its only importance is its meaning to you in America today.

> > Understanding the time and culture it was produced in may reveal

> > something about the author's intent ... although ultimately how you

> > interpret it today (even if different from the author) keeps it alive.

> > Steve

> 

> I still question your ideas of "static and fixed," and especially "the

> poem is fixed in time."  Certain the meaning of the poem lies within how

> you interpret it.  But my interpretation of it today is probably much the

> same as those who interpreted it in the fifties and those who will

> interpret it 30 years from now.  You asked if I still see America as 50's

> America.  The answer to that question is both no and yes.  I certainly

> see technological and societal changes.  But I still see America as being

> far from what it can be, in the same way that Ginsberg did.  I still see

> an America where the gap between affluence and poverty is still great,

> greater than it was in the fifties.  I still see the hungry and poor, the

> mentally ill, the suicidal, the people crying for help with no where to

> go. I still see jails and prisons filled with people whose only crime was

> possession of marijuana or drugs of an addiction, not violent crimes.  I

> see people who simply can't afford health insurance, dying of illnesses

> that could have been treated with proper medical attention.  I see the

> plight of the old and the weak and the weary at the hands of a society

> that cares more about a basketball player getting 30 million a year than

> it does about hungry childen or the homeless. I see an America where

> children are afraid of going to school in terror of being shot, an

> America where even color and sex still make a difference in where you are

> allowed to go and in what you can do. I still see as Ginsberg writes,

> "Ashcans and unobtainable dollars! Children screaming under stairways!

> Boys sobbing in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!"  I still see

> America lifting Molach to Heaven, "They broke their backs lifting Molach

> to Heaven! Pavement, trees, radios, tons! lifting the city to Heaven

> which exists and is everywhere about us!"  And to go here from Ginsberg

> to Diane DiPrima, from her poem "Good Clean Fun"

> 

> "IS THE ASSAULT ON NATIVE INTELLIGENCE &

> GOOD WILL WE CALL THE EVENING

> NEWS ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ACT OF TERRIORISM?

> 

> What was the Gulf War but terriorism

> wearing the death mask of order?--

> One big car bomb it was

> the guys who drove it

> are dying now one by one--ignored!

> 

> Is acid rain a form of terriorism? (Think for yourself.)

> Is GATT or NAFTA anything but a pact among brigands--the World Bank, the

>    IMP their backup men?

> How long before they fight over the spoils?

> Who'll do the fighting for them?"

> 

> I see the dream of what America can be as being a long ways from what

> America is.  And I still see the possibility for positive change that is

> also the underpinning of Howl.  I think anyone who sees "the poem fixed

> in time"  is not truly hearing its words or recognizing the power of

> words to transcend time.

> DC

 

Bravo!

  I see you use this poem as a political soapbox. Abbie Hoffman also saw

it as a "call to arms". Your "yes and no" response is very diplomatic as

well. But to paraphrase another political exchange ... I knew Allen

Ginsberg and you are no Allen Ginsberg. I am surprised that you have

time for discussions. Are You running for office or are you a paid

moderator?

  You assume to see as Ginsberg, you assume to see as those who saw the

poem 30 years ago and as those who will see  it thirty years hence. You

finally assume I do not hear or recognize the power of words.

You seem to be an assuming person.

 

Steve

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:47:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat Spirit

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Mitchell Smith wrote:

> 

> Might you be posting that too the group? Or is it too long?

> 

> mjs

 

what is the context of this post?  hope to see whatever it is on

beatspirit too!

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:24:41 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Karen Eblen <keblen@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Howl/Madness

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Idealism and ideology must not interfere with the role of the

bodhissattva.

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:50:22 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Patti Smith (Peace and Noise)

 

i listened to her cd at Virgin on Friday - LOVED IT!!

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:12:18 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      campy gen x meets Beats book

Mime-Version: 1.0

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hey folks,

        while shelving some books at my local job i came across something

for the pop culture section. I don't have it in front of me but it

examines Ginsberg, Kerouac and Burroughs in terms of their beliefs and

somehow appplies them to the 90s. It comes across as campy in some points

(e.g. It talks about using Burrough's invisibility technique of spotting

people before they see you) but is a good intro for readers who aren't

familiar with the beats. I'll try to get the name of it unless anyone on

the list has seen this thing. I apologize for the vague descriptions.

        as for the Huncke reader, i have it on reserve but while leafing

through it i found it to be a well-designed book. In regards to "Guilty of

Everything", i found a hardcover copy in the clearance section of a

bookstore 2 years ago. Its still available and is a great read. I love

how Ginsberg sometimes would think of Huncke as a mooch in his

biography. Meanwhile, Herbert was convinced Allen wasn't "really" upset

about having contraband in his apartment. Just one of the joys in

reading 2 bios on people who were at the same place and time with

different opinions on the situation.

                                                jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:55:16 +0800

Reply-To:     jackbing@pacific.net.sg

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Lim Lee Ching <jackbing@PACIFIC.NET.SG>

Subject:      Re: The "I"'s have it

MIME-Version: 1.0

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sorry, i missed the it. can anyone e-mail me?

 

thanks

ching, who's been signed off, unknowingly, for about 2 months now.....

 

Aviva Vogel wrote:

> 

> DC, I liked your presentation on how the "I" of Beat poetry was unique in its

> willingness to "stand naked."  Very clear, well-written, and nicely-put!

> 

> Thanks, Aviva

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:07:56 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: jazz

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I like the way this list is shaping up.  Nice additions Anne.

 

I presume Thelonious Monk was already on the list--on top, along with

Trane, Miles, and Bird.

 

ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON wrote:

> 

> Chet Baker

> Dinah Washington

> Sarah Vaughan

> Charlie Christian

> Lester Young

> and a little Louis Jordan and Wynonie Harris thrown in for good measure

> Anne Sneddon

> 

> On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Angelo T wrote:

> 

> > Charles Mingus

> > Charlie Parker

> > John Coletrane

> > Miles Davis (pre 1976)

> > Billie Holiday

> > Art Tatum

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:13:29 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: howl takes off on burke-L

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> The part "with mother finally ******"  I have always interpreted in a

> couple of ways.  With mother finally succombed to her own individual

> madness.  With mother finally out of my mind.

 

Diane,

 

Well AG usually read it " With Mother finally (fill in the Country Joe

and the Fish cheer).  But then what did he know?

 

js

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:19:49 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      [Fwd: Re: The "I"'s have it]

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------75D93F3C6F7F"

 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

 

--------------75D93F3C6F7F

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This post seems to have been sent back by the list--perhaps AG's

language, I am not sure--will try again.

 

--------------75D93F3C6F7F

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Message-ID: <344253CE.1640@pacbell.net>

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:01:02 -0700

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: The "I"'s have it

References: <971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>

                    <344084AF.A58@midusa.net> <3440FBEB.5735@pacbell.net>

 <3440B36A.24CB@together.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Diane,

 

 

> I don't think that any of us are saying that the beats brought "I" to

> literature.  You also forgot to include Whitman, who in Song of Myself

> begins "I celebrate myself and sing myself."

 

I didn't forget.  I was choosing things without a Beat connection, and

Whitman wasn't what I was looking for. I could have gone on for pages.

The point I was trying to make with some humor is similar to the point

you don't seem to think I am grasping.  What is interesting is not the

use of the first person voice but precisely the things you mention,

challenging the limits of proper literary language and concern.

 

I shall never forget sitting in a university lecture hall in the mid

sixties and being amused at the librarians trying not to express shock

as AG shouted, " Fuck me, fuck me in my asshole."  Clearly a new level

of discourse.

 

 

 

  James, the I is not new, but the I standing

> there in its utter nakedness was fundamentally new to poetry.

> DC

 

But I will go take my seat at the back of the class.

 

js

 

--------------75D93F3C6F7F--

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 04:33:28 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: "GOOD jazz"

 

John Coltrane, Art Pepper, Art Tatum, Art Blakey, Billie Holiday (jazz/blues),

Ella Fitzgerald, Dave Brubeck, Charlie Mingus, Duke Ellington, Stan Getz, Paul

Desmond, Django Reinhart/Stephan Grappelli...  uh oh brain got stuck.  well

let you know when other names pop in.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:28:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Fagan <Sundstrom0@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat Bedtime Stories

 

David-

Wait until you start pulling the up for 80+ hours, then the fun really

begins.

Reading Burroughs on sleep deprivation is a whole new experience. =)

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:53:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Jazz, bebop and otherwise...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        To the following suggestions I'd add:

The bebop triumvirate is completed by adding Dizzy Gillespie to Charlie

Parker and Thelonious Monk,  ....with Klook Clark on drums of course

to them add...

Slim Gaillard

Babs Gonzales

Bud Powell

...and Richie Powell, Clifford Brown and Max Roach

Jimmy Giuffre, Art Blakey, Lionel Hampton and Milt Jackson

 

        These are the players and singers that Jack and the others loved.

 

 

                        ***************

        from Angelo T."

Charles Mingus

Charlie Parker

John Coletrane

Miles Davis (pre 1976)

Billie Holiday

Art Tatum

 

 

                        ****************

        from Karen Eblen:

Benny Carter

Coleman Hawkins

 

 

                        ****************

        from Anne Sneddon:

Chet Baker

Dinah Washington

Sarah Vaughan

Charlie Christian

Lester Young

and a little Louis Jordan and Wynonie Harris thrown in for good measure

 

 

                        ****************

        from Michael Brown with an 'R'!:

Can you imagine these two together? Tatum whizzing quietly in background,

Holiday just breathing those notes. Oww.

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:44:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat Bedtime Stories

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Jennifer Fagan wrote:

> 

> David-

> Wait until you start pulling the up for 80+ hours, then the fun really

> begins.

> Reading Burroughs on sleep deprivation is a whole new experience. =)

 

 

been there done that...last hospitalization i was up for 192 hours

before going in.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:42:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      [I"M an Uncle AgainFwd: Thomas Gordon Stevens]

Comments: To: babu <dkpenn@oees.com>, Virgil Balthrop <vwb@EMAIL.UNC.EDU>,

          "tjardes, sue" <tjardes@ups.edu>,

          JTalley4n6@aol.com, "stauffer@pacbell.net" <stauffer@pacbell.net>,

          Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>,

          smartin@mailbox.acusd.edu, SCOTT HARRIS

          <sharris@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>, Robert Wick <rwick@cov.com>,

          phares@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU, pelliott@sunflower.com, "Meyer,

          Linda Prof." <lmeyer@quinnipiac.edu>,

          "louden, allan" <louden@wfu.edu>, "lingel, dan" <dlingel@why.net>,

          brooklyn@netcom.com, kevin kuswa <k.kuswa@mail.utexas.edu>,

          "Kenneth M. Strange" <Kenneth.M.Strange@Dartmouth.EDU>,

          john sloop <sloopjm@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>,

          "hingstman, david" <dbhingst@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>,

          gordo2 <jgordon@oz.sunflower.org>, FtHaysdebate <Joeb@media-net.net>,

          "Eric L. Krug" <elkrug@kcnet.com>,

          "EliCunning@aol.com" <EliCunning@aol.com>,

          Ed Panetta <EPANETTA@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>,

          DRTUNA@aol.com, "Dr. Roald Tweet x7467" <ENTWEET@Augustana.edu>,

          "dilley, benita" <bdilley@castle.cudenver.edu>,

          Diane Carter <dcarter@together.net>,

          Dallas Perkins <dperkins@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU>,

          "CVEditions@aol.com" <CVEditions@aol.com>,

          culver <nculver@fwenc.com>, Cori Dauber <cdauber@EMAIL.UNC.EDU>,

          Bruce Gronbeck <gronbeck@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>,

          "Beach@qconline.com" <Beach@qconline.com>, 0Stine <StineKC@aol.com>

Comments: cc: kudebate <KUDEBATE-L@ukans.edu>,

          bohemian <Bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu>

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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:21:26 -0600

From: Sam and Beth Stevens <sbstevens@mcione.com>

Subject: Thomas Gordon Stevens

To: Bob and DJ Zasuly <djbob@sni.net>, Bob Zasuly <bob_zasuly@jdedwards.com>,

        John Yallop <jayladdie@aol.com>,

        Susan and Fredrik Winterlind <euswint@aol.com>,

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        Martha Turner <mturner@rmi.net>, Sam and Nancy Stevens <sss@why.net>,

        Mary Stevens <marylstevens@juno.com>,

        Beth Stevens <copro.bstevens@sdps.org>,

        Scott Shay <SGS@HaleyAldrich.com>, Jennifer Shay <mvrhslib@tiac.net>,

        Gordon and Janet Shay <FGS93RD@aol.com>,

        David Shay <72420.51@compuserve.com>, Dale Shay <daleshay@juno.com>,

        Jim and Julie Rhaesa <racy@primenet.com>,

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        Candace Loesby <cmloesby@juno.com>,

        Bill and Betty Legge <walegge@midusa.net>,

        Ann Krueger <DJWN79A@prodigy.com>,

        Beth Hotmail <bethstevens@hotmail.com>,

        Bill and Beth Francis <bfrancis40@aol.com>,

        Jane Foulks <janef2@juno.com>, Katy Edwards <llama@colorado.net>,

        Kate Collyar <midnight@dnvr.uswest.net>,

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Just a short note to let you know that Beth and I had a baby boy (by

c-section) on Monday, Oct. 13 1997 at 6:59 p.m. in Aurora, CO.  Thomas

Gordon Stevens weighed 7 lb. 15 oz at birth, and is already talking in

complete sentences.  Both mother and child are doing quite well, and the

father made it through the entire affair without any medication whatsoever.

 

-Sam

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:03:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      howling on Burke-L

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i may have misunderstood the questions off burke-L concerning the ****

and Carl and so am suggesting a different interpretation.

 

i personally am still fairly close to the "I saw".  At this point i

still feel that my experiences have less to do with the best minds than

most sensitive hearts of a generation.  Will do some reflecting today

and tomorrow of the "I saw's" that I saw in my walk through life's

"special places".  perhaps i'll even come up with something worth

writing down and sharing.

 

the question appears to be (of course i may still be wrong) something to

do with why the Carl's and others are referred to by name while the

mother is generic mother.  i have gut reactions to this of course but

wonder if there is information about Allen's perspective on this

question out there someplace that i've not seen?

 

Any help is appreciated!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

USA

earth

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:34:59 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: campy gen x meets Beats book

In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:12:18 -0400 from

              <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

 

Sounds like the newly published "Beat Spirit."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:54:40 +0800

Reply-To:     jackbing@pacific.net.sg

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Lim Lee Ching <jackbing@PACIFIC.NET.SG>

Subject:      howl spoof

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i remember reading somewhere before that there is a spoof version of

howl called yowl. anyone has any ideas on where i met get hold of that

on the web?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:00:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: howl spoof

Comments: To: Lim Lee Ching <jackbing@PACIFIC.NET.SG>

In-Reply-To:  <344395C0.247@pacific.net.sg>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I think you can find it on a link off of Levi Asher's page. It's

HYSTERICALLY funny! --Sara

 

On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Lim Lee Ching wrote:

 

> i remember reading somewhere before that there is a spoof version of

> howl called yowl. anyone has any ideas on where i met get hold of that

> on the web?

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:08:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric R Wood <wooderi1@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: howl spoof

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PMDF.3.95.971014115911.460051A-100000@uoft02.utoledo.edu>

              from "Sara Feustle" at Oct 14, 97 12:00:00 pm

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I found it at http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Texts/Yowl.html

 

 

 

Eric Wood

wooderi1@pilot.msu.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:21:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      7 years more Chic

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I don't know how many are interested in this but there was some talk about

the Time cover story.

 

Here is a similar piece about the movie and Buddhsim in the US from The

Times of India on Monday.

 

__________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

               Brad Pitt's bad karma:`Seven years in

               Tibet'

 

               By Ramesh Chandran

 

               Hollywood's irresistible fascination with Buddhism which took

               root in the 1950s has never really dimmed over the last four

               decades. Today's leading proponents of Tibetan Buddhism such

               as actor Richard Gere, who now spends considerable time in

               Dharamshala, recalls the days when he was introduced to Zen

               through the quixotic interpretation of the religion through the

               writings of Gary Snyder, Jack Kerouac and Allan Ginsburg.

               Today, the celebrity followers and ``students'' of Buddhism come

               in a much more serious stripe subscribing to the various schools

               of Buddhist thought that are prevalent in this country that

includes

               at least two schools of outstanding calibre in California.

 

               Apart from Gere, other leading Hollywood luminaries who have

               become deeply involved with the religion include Steven Seagal,

               Tina Turner, Martin Scorsese, Harrison Ford and Herbie

               Hancock. And emerging as Gere's successor as the entertainment

               industry's most indefatigable proponent of Tibetan Buddhism is

               Adam Yauch, the lead singer of the punk-rap group --Beastie

               Boys. Yauch has campaigned and organised Tibetan Freedom

               concerts and has recorded CDs with songs titled ``Bodhisattva

               Vov''. And if Hollywood cares so much for a cause, can the

               media focus be far behind?

 

               Tibetan chic has been the subject of press obsession for long and

               America's fascination with Buddhism is a subject of a cover story

               in a new issue of Time. The press coverage in the past week is

               also timed to coincide with the release of two films in which

               Buddhist religious philosophy, China's occupation of Tibet and of

               course, the Dalai Lama figure prominently. The first of the two

               films was released this week --starring Brad Pitt, and

directed by

               Jean-Jacques Annaud, Seven Years In Tibet is an ornate epic

               about an Austrian mountaineer with a Nazi past who encounters a

               youthful Dalai Lama. The second film with a Tibetan resonance

               will hit the American screen this December --Martin Scorcese's

               Kundun that delves into the extraordinary life of the Dalai Lama.

 

               Brad Pitt, who has a remarkable female fan following worldwide

               recently starred as an Irish terrorist in the flop, The

Devil's Own.

               He seemed to have had a hard time perfecting that Irish accent --

               here portraying an Aryan hunk with a Nazi past, he has problems

               too grappling with a dicey Austrian accent. Pitt, shot

against the

               majesty of the supposed Himalayan ranges (the movie was filmed

               in Argentina) with his tresses dyed a pale champagne blond,

               however, does a competent job as the egomaniacal Austrian

               mountain climber who finds spiritual salvation through his

               friendship with the young Dalai Lama.

 

               Written by Beck Johnston, it is based on a true story of Henrich

               Harrer, an ace mountaineer and Nazi Party member, who heads

               to conquer Nanga Parbat but instead ends up in a British prison

               camp in India during World War II. After three attempts he,

               along with expedition leader Peter Aufschnaiter escapes from the

               prison and makes an arduous trek to Lhasa. Arriving in that

               cloistered kingdom, Henrich Harrer gets to meet the 11-year old

               Dalai Lama. The exuberant friendship between the two lights up

               the film as Pitt and 14-year old Bhutanese actor, Jamyang

               Wangchuk, who in a wonderfully radiant performance as the

               Dalai Lama brings warmth to the screen.

 

               Pitt's character then becomes a sort of tutor to the Dalai Lama

               answering questions from an eager student --``what is a Molotov

               cocktail'' and ``who is Jack the Ripper''. As Harrer basks in the

               comforting solace and tranquility of Lhasa and the community of

               Buddhist basks, in 1950, the Chinese army invades Tibet as he

               watches helplessly and the Dalai Lama flees to India.

 

               For much of its early scenes, the film lumbers through

stolidly as

               Harrer selfishly leaves his pregnant wife and heads for Nanga

               Parbat. It redeems itself only after Harrer reaches Lhasa and

               encounters the Buddhist monks and their boy-god. The mountain

               scapes are jaw-droppingly spectacular-- although it is in fact

               neither Tibet nor India but the Andes in Argentina. Director

               Jean-Jacques Annaud talks about constant pressure from Beijing

               to force him to abort his project; he also points out that

the Indian

               government dawdled endlessly about granting him permission to

               shoot in India and exasperated he went to the opposite corner of

               the world, Argentina, where the government seemed immune to

               pressure from Chinese bureaucrats.

 

               Another intriguing oddity about the film was that Jean-Jacques

               Annaud, Brad Pitt and others claim that they were unaware of

               Harrer's Nazi background since the book had carefully omitted

               his controversial past. Only after the German magazine, Stern

               revealed Harrer's association with the elite SS that they were

               forced to make references to it, including the

               swastika-emblazoned flag he carried to plant atop Nanga Parbat.

 

               Harrer, who is now 85, told the press from his home in Austria

               that he had not seen Seven Years in Tibet and admits to its

               ``ideological errors''. He has claimed that he is still close

to the

               Dalai Lama and met him in September in Trieste in Italy. He was

               also quoted as saying: ``The older we grow, the deeper (is) our

               friendship''. As for Brad Pitt, whose performance --Teutonic

               accent and all --got very modest reviews from critics here,

he has

               inadvertently followed in the direction of two other hunky actors

               -- Liam Neeson (Schindler's List) and Ralph Fiennes (The

               English Patient) both of whom portrayed sympathetic

               characters with a Nazi past.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:40:18 -0500

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From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      I saw Time/Buddhism (was Re: 7 years more Chic

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> I don't know how many are interested in this but there was some talk about

> the Time cover story.

> 

 

hey, i is the one who started that jazz.  was focusing on the "I saw" in

AG's Howl and saw Time with Buddhism cover and I saw incredible

ironies.  Probably not clear about what i meant.

 

currently in midst of Haldol Haze which means half the time i can't

recall how to tie shoe.  It is lunchtime in Kansas and the kitchen seems

like something out of interzone...can't go there.  must go outside and

hunt and forage for something to eat.

 

I saw ... the mind temporarily frozen in time/space.  I saw it and i saw

that it was my mind.  So i went back to sleep!!! :)

 

peace, love and understanding (in any order),

 

david rhaesa

nita #23

500 east crawford street

salina, Kansas

 

gonna go sit by the mailbox with GLORIA ... :)

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:13:59 -0400

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From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: 7 years more Chic

 

sorry if this is too much off the subjesct, but

did anyone see seven years in Tibet? heard it was good, but not from reliable

source. If you've seen it, can you give me an overview and review?

Thanks,

~Marlene~

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:22:17 -0400

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From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: 7 years more Chic

 

sorry about that, didn't scroll down, please don't kill me.

::shuddering::

~marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:46:29 -0500

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From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: 7 years more Chic

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marlene.  i've seen it and have never been to Austria so didnt' notice

Pitt's lack of perfect accent.  I thought it was worth the movie ticket

for sure.  My bf thought it had an almost disneyesque ending.  It was

good, go see it.

 

On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Marlene Giraud wrote:

 

> sorry if this is too much off the subjesct, but

> did anyone see seven years in Tibet? heard it was good, but not from reliable

> source. If you've seen it, can you give me an overview and review?

> Thanks,

> ~Marlene~

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:18:01 -0400

Reply-To:     atrigili@lynx.dac.neu.edu

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Organization: Northeastern University

Subject:      Re: howl spoof (for cats)

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Eric R Wood wrote:

> 

> I found it at http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Texts/Yowl.html

> 

> Eric Wood

> wooderi1@pilot.msu.edu

 

Then there's "Meowl," by Allen Ginsberg's cat, which can be found in

Henry Beard's *Poetry for Cats: The Definitive Anthology of

Distinguished Feline Verse*:  "with the indigestible furball of the poem

in the heart coughed up out of their own bodies onto the absolute center

of the immaculate carpet of life."

 

Tony

 

*****************************************************

"I don't believe in hunting.  Give the animals a gun,

and then maybe I'd hunt."

--Mo Vaughn

*****************************************************

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:48:03 -0400

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From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs piece

In-Reply-To:  <343E8149.573A@sunflower.com>

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On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Neil, i want to thank you.  The peice hit that criteria of mine, that

> after years of searching i use for determining good writing. It was

> interesting, made me think, led my mind on.  It had such a rich use of

> perspective, the use of your insight gained from his, was touching to me

> in my heart.  I might have a different reaction than others due to how

> (the roads) that I knew William, but your peice brought many thoughts

> home to me.  I loved Williams art, I think his art which may have lacked

> this or that in technique but to me was strong and true, part of the

> expression of his genius.  Your use of your art, especially the opening

> siluette peice fit like a gold glove.

> p

 

 

Thanks again, Patricia. It means a lot to me that my piece holds meaning

for those that knew him, as well as for those like myself whose contact

with Burroughs was tangential at best.

 

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:23:46 -0700

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From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's bus station torn down

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971013123619.20411E-100000@pioneer.nevada.edu>

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Just a quick comment regarding OLD=BAD, NEW=GOOD:

 

I was in Dallasd last weekend for the State Fair (really a fun thing).

They hold it at a place called Exposition Park in Fair Park.  Kinda hard

to explain but it consists of about 9 buildings built around a cool

reflecting pond (that's really long).  ANYWAY (HERE'S the point!!), it was

built in 1936 in the Deco style.  Of course, in the 50's they painted

over all the gorgeous artwork.  So while I was there, they have on display

the workers stripping the paint and uncovering the pretty.  Cool, no?

 

Jorgiana

 

 

 

On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON wrote:

 

> As a former Cheyenne,Wyoming native, I was saddened to learn that the bus

> station in downtown Cheyenne was recently demolished in an effort to

> "yuppify" the area.  This was the station that Kerouac mentions while

> passing through Cheyenne in "On the Road," and although it is a rather

> peripheral reference, I always took comfort in knowing that "Jack was

> there."

> The station was built in the latter part of the 19th century and was

> a historical monument. Sure, it attracted transients...it was a BUS

> STATION, fer cryin' out loud, but I wonder if, when people were fighting

> to save it, if anyone mentioned that it had been immortalized in Kerouac's

> novel.  If they did, I wonder if it made any difference.  Cities seem to

> be on this hell-bent mission to destroy their history because they think

> that NEW=GOOD and OLD=BAD.  My current residence is at the top of the

> list.  Sad....

> Anne Sneddon

> LV, NV

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:36:53 -0700

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From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971012020352.10129A-100000@am.appstate.edu>

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Sorry for the delay responding to this message...good article in Vanity

Fair (Nicole on the cover) about the new trend in autobiog.

fiction...maybe there's too much around.  Good article.

 

Jorgiana

 

 

 

 

On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Alex Howard wrote:

 

> On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

> 

> > It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat

 canon

> > begin with "I":

> 

> I find this to be the most remarkable and important impact (literarilly

> <pardon the spelling I'm drunk>) of the beats.  It was the brutal honesty

> of how life really was for a particular portion of the population.  That

> simple fact has completely changed literature since.  Besides from Tom W.,

> Hunter S. and the lot making journalism a real creative expression of art,

> the way novels are written has changed.  The proliferation of real people

> telling their own experiences and struggles has grown exponentially.  You

> just wouldn't find the uncomposed (only slightly edited), raw emotion and

> expression of everyday life.  The subjective experience has, within it

> (the beats allowed the world to discover and as post-modernism would bring

> with it screaming into the world), a modicum of generalized reality.  That

> there can be such general truth in personal experinece is the kind of

> thing to make you believe in God or destiny or some such other head cheese

> (see Footnote to Howl if you don't believe me).  Think how many people now

> want to tell _their_ story.  This is what made that feasible.  If there is

> talent in the telling, there can be something learned about our own lives

> and realities from anyone's experience.  Makes people say "I dig".

> 

> ------------------

> Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

> kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

> http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:18:27 -0400

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From:         Russell duPont <dupbooks@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Photo book on the Beats

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Now available:

 

McDarrah, Fred W., and Gloria S. McDarrah. beat generation: Glory Days in

Greenwich Village. NY: Schirmer Books, 1996. First edition; 286pp; 240+

photographs interspersed with writings by Ginsburg et al and comments of

the authors. Small remainder mark, o/w F/NF. $40

 

Postage $2.50 within the US

 

                                Russell R. duPont

                                   Bookseller

                                41 Star Street

                                Whitman, MA 02382

                                 781/447-4091

                                dupbooks@tiac.net

                       Web Site. http://www.tiac.net/users/dupbooks

 

 

                               Specializing in books

                             and exhibition catalogues

                          on the fine and decorative arts.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:51:18 EST

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From:         "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Rocky Mountain Beat

 

Was John Denver Beat?

 

                           --Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:17:16 EDT

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From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Rocky Mountain Beat

In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:51:18 EST from

              <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

 

On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:51:18 EST THE ZET'S GOOD. said:

>Was John Denver Beat?

> 

>                           --Dave B.

 

 

Well, he had a song called "Rocky Mountain High."  Does that count?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:46:00 -0700

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From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Rocky Mountain Beat

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At 08:17 PM 10/14/97 EDT, you wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:51:18 EST THE ZET'S GOOD. said:

>>Was John Denver Beat?

>> 

>>                           --Dave B.

> 

> 

>Well, he had a song called "Rocky Mountain High."  Does that count?

> 

> 

 

If it does he's beat.

 

He also had some song about he and his friends sitting around at night

passing the pipe around.

 

Weirdly weirdly John Denver was kind of beat.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:09:44 -0700

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From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: The "I"'s have it]

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> James Stauffer wrote:

 

> I didn't forget.  I was choosing things without a Beat connection, and

> Whitman wasn't what I was looking for. I could have gone on for pages.

> The point I was trying to make with some humor is similar to the point

> you don't seem to think I am grasping.  What is interesting is not the

> use of the first person voice but precisely the things you mention,

> challenging the limits of proper literary language and concern.

 

I just thought the Whitman reference would be a good jumping off point

because it connects to David in his contemplation of "I saw."  The "I

saw" is in visionary terms the connection to Whitman and Blake, and "I

see or saw" in visionary poetry is different from its use in other

forms of literature.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:16:04 -0700

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From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Madness/Howl

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> vorys wrote:

> 

> I see you use this poem as a political soapbox. Abbie Hoffman also saw

> it as a "call to arms".

I don't use it as a political soapbox but I recognize its political

implications.

 

"who reappeared on the West Coast investigating the FBI in beards and

        shorts with big pacifist eyes sexy in their dark skin passing

        out incomprehensible leaflets,

who burned cigarette holes in their arms protesting the narcotic tobacco

        haze of Capitalism,

who distributed supercommunist pamphlets in Union Square weeping and

        undressing while the sirens of Los Alamos wailed them down,

        and wailed down Wall, and the Staten Island ferry also wailed..."

 

or who in America, writes:

 

"America free Tom Mooney

America save the Spanish Loyalists

America Sacco & Vanzetti must not die

America I am the Scottsboro boys

America when I was seven momma took me to Communist Cell meetings they

        sold us garbanzos a handful per ticket a ticket costs a nickel

        and the speeches were free everybody was angelic and sentimental

        about the workers it was all so sincere you have no idea what a

        good thing the party was in 1835 Scott Nearing was a grand old

        man a real mensch Mother Bloor the Silk-strikers' Ewig-Weibliche

        made me cry I once saw Yiddish orator Israel Amter plain.

        Everybody must have been a spy."

 

Ginsberg's poems had a political and a social impact as powerful as

the literary impact.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:26:55 -0500

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      Unsubscribe from mail list

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Please remove from from the beat list mail at this time. We

are having medical problems in the house and I will not be able

to keep up with it.  I will notify you again when I am up and

running.  Thank you!  R&R Houff stand666@bitstream.net

Let me know if I have done this in the right procedure..if not;

how do I unsubscribe myself from the list???

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:38:10 -0400

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From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      burroughsian scholars?

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Is there such a think as a "burroughsian scholar", one who researches and

analyses all of Bill's work? If so, this person would have libraries full

of information based on books, letters and essays that Bill has written

over the years. It seems that Bill has left us with an eternal supply of

information and creativity.

        oh here's a horrible thought: what if a 90s beat film was made

and corporate america actually embraced such a thing? could you fathom a

Kerouac "Happy-meal" or a Ginsberg action figure?

                                        -some humor....

                                                        jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:36:20 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: The "I"'s have it]

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Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> I just thought the Whitman reference would be a good jumping off point

> because it connects to David in his contemplation of "I saw."  The "I

> saw" is in visionary terms the connection to Whitman and Blake, and "I

> see or saw" in visionary poetry is different from its use in other

> forms of literature.

> 

 

It would have been a good jumping off point if I had wanted to make the

statement you make.  I was making my own and wasn't feeling particularly

pedantic.  If I had I would have come to you for pointers.

 

I wasn't reacting principally to David's "I saw" but to an earlier

assertion that there was something remarkable in the fact that Howl, On

the  Road, and one of WSB's books started with "I".  On the Road is a

wonderful book but it is not a "visionary" work in the sense you connect

with Whitman and Blake.  I fail to see this tradition at work in

anythings of WSB's unless one wanted to arugue a very ironic version of

that tradition that is essentially rooted in the style of Hebrew

prophecy.

 

JS

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 04:06:42 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Lachlan Jobbins <hipster66@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Rocky Mountain Beat

Content-Type: text/plain

 

No

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:41:22 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      poem by Maggie Helwig

In-Reply-To:  <971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The City on Wednesday           by Maggie Helwig

 

 

The street at six in the morning

moves in the darkness as knowledge moves in our bodies, blind

the hum and transit through passages of night.

We could not be more alone.

Each of us, dark travellers, me who sits on the bed

at the window in a cold dawn, watching.

 

The lines of the city extend like bones through space,

not asking for directions, burned by the wind.

But in this cold blue moment I am

not so afraid as I might have been

 

alone, now, here.

 

Things fall from us, I mean

when our hands are empty, when our eyes are sore

and our hearts imperfect;

until we are wrapped in the comfort of morning

soft children cuddled in the blankets of light and sleep.

In the morning, grapes in my cupped hand, green,

pale with water and sugar and faith.

The sun floods Walworth Road. The city on Wednesday

abandons itself to trust, to the constant hope

of bright-coloured paper, wool and cotton, complexity.

The gifts of the spirit that fall down around us

like tiny wheels and tops and flags, red plastic kites

and the smoke that drifts upwards from the cardboard burning

 

in the yard next door,

our journeys to the banks of the river.

 

 

At noon I pause, in the sun, at a point in the air

and my body aspires upwards. There is

no other way through the city.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:47:30 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      the Poetry of John Wieners

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

To Celebrate this Broken Man: the Poetry of John Wieners

 

for John Robinson

 

Jeremy Reed

 

 

Lyric poetry demands a total commitment, an inseparable pact between the

poet's life and art, and John Wieners has in every way fulfilled this

redoubtable union. Poets in the 20th century have largely been in retreat

from their calling, and have attempted to reconcile their art with

avocational careers, and in the process have contributed to the social

unacceptance that goes with being a poet.

John Wieners steps out of a doorway. He's a legend to the few who celebrate

his elegiac lyricism, and his consummately attuned ear. It's stopped

raining, but the street shines like the points in a blue diamond. He's in

love with glamour and torchsingers. He would like to be a beautiful woman.

It's an obsession. In his loneliness, a mood that permeates all of his

poetry, he is thinking of Lana Turner, Rita Hayworth, Billie Holiday,

Barbara Stanwyck, Dorothy Lamour or Hedy Lamarr. He has assimilated and

personalised theatrically camp gestures, but his rich inner world of

ambidextrous personae is not easily translated into money. Again and again

his poetry turns on the question of how to live from lyric, and how to

resolve the dichotomy between the magic invested in the name of being a

poet and the demythicized role as it is translated into reality.

 

Poverty has nearly ripped my life off,

kept me on the streets and in boarding houses,

drove me into asylums and maddened drug-addiction

tenements, where I lost my mother and father.

('New Beaches')

 

Wieners combines the poet and sexual outlaw in one person, and his angular

lyricism, at times savagely polemical and at times gracefully poignant,

owes as much to the 17th century songwriters as it does to Black Mountain

poetics and the Beat Generation. Rhetoric and vernacular come together in

his work, and his language takes a shine from symbolist metaphor as well as

tarnish from dust kicked up off the street. Wieners is arguably the most

subjective poet of his generation, he personalises lyric in a way that sets

him apart from the transpersonal ethos explored by Olson, Creeley and Dorn.

And it's the woman who suffers in his work, the wounded and devastated

anima in his psyche which has him again and again consign his emotions to

the self-evaluative poetic arena. It's the dramatization of suffering that

gives his poetry the gestures of a torch singer.

 

Your wife's necklace's around my neck

and even though I do shave I pretend

I'm a woman for you

you make love to me like a man.

('To H.')

 

Wieners, finding himself in the passive role in his sexual relations,

invariably interprets pain accordingly. His poetry is about maintaining a

wounded dignity in the face of societal humiliation, and in spite of drug

habits, breakdowns, and periods of itinerant vagrancy. He is the most

explicit of gay poets, and it's much to his credit that he has pursued a

policy of sexual honesty right from the outset of his career. There are no

duplicities, equivocations or simulations in his sexual psychology. His

honesty is often unsparing on personal and ideological planes:

 

I suppose that's how I was born,

Come on and go down on me,

because I live in misery

far away from the sea.

('Jimmy')

 

Where do we find him? He moves through the late afternoon crowds, his eyes

making a stab at a jeweller's window, and staying there for a long time, or

he will enter stores and learn from the colours of the couture fashions,

and imagine himself a diva leaving with a sequinned gown and a variety of

make-up. No-one before has made a poetry out of his subject material, and

his exploration of obsessive fetishes cultivated by a traumatised anima has

shifted the parameters of what is thought to be acceptable subject matter

for poetry. Wieners is essentially an American phenomenon in that British

poetry continually narrows its focus, and would fail to integrate his work

into its largely commonplace organism. Despite the appearance of a Selected

Poems from Jonathan Cape in 1972, and an earlier book Nerves from Cape

Goliard in 1970, Wieners remains arcane knowledge in this country, given

only to the enthusiasm of a cult who cherish and keep his work alive

through underground sources.

John Wieners living in poverty at Joy Street, Boston, seven orange roses

beside him in a glass, a long scarf draped from his shoulders. He has an

identity, the panache of the poet transcending ruin to live in the light of

his commitment. Wieners has never sold himself short, he has honoured his

calling by dishonouring its alternatives, conformism and unemployment. His

eye works to find the aesthetically redemptive particular:

 

Bulgarian lilies, trans

sylvanian tulips on a

rose quartz stair-case bend

beneath sunrise. Hun-

garian roses twisted to shape

('White Rum and Limes')

 

Wieners follows in the tradition of le pohte maudit, the one who is a

danger to society by reason of uncompromising vision. The one who goes all

the way and cares nothing for himself in the process, like Lautriamont,

Rimbaud, and Hart Crane. Wieners' work is about the retrieval of truth from

the ideological complex of lies, and it's about maintaining a state of

creative innocence in a world of experiential corruption. The internalized

process of poetics creates purity when the energies are rightly directed.

Wieners has remained pure in his situation to his gift, and is that even if

he is blowing a guy in a parking lot or measuring a hit of morphine. The

pohte maudit is the alchemist, he who transmutes all experience into

recognizable gold, by which I mean lyric. And the poem is in itself the

reward for a life of solitary exclusion, punctuated by the fanatical

enthusiasm of the few who align with the work:

 

half-a-decade of rest, the skin on my legs has changed it holds

together

now as a rich person by itself, I have vowed I shall never be

again and know

I shall never be lonely again, because of the love that dwells

within poetry's mouth

('New Beaches')

 

It takes an irrefutable courage to compound lines like these, and it's

given to few to write them. Wieners is in his heightened moments, when

lyric is aspiring to a vertical axis, visionary. Something in the line

dazzles, and his native Beacon Hill is aureoled by his inimitably cadenced

poetic speech. And even if he is lonely, and in love with married men, a

Billie Holiday song accompanying his late-afternoon reverie, then his gift

has been to dis-alienate those who are similarly ostracised and alone.

Wieners has given an accessible poetry to gay culture, junkies,

transvestites, transsexuals, and not least the lonely. And he has restored

dignity to the role of being a poet.

Wieners has made poetry out of want. Denied the life of material opulence

and romantic love to which his aesthetic sensibility reaches, he has

imagined their existence within his work. Like Jean Genet, who transformed

his prison cell into any number of palatial rooms, and transmogrified his

solitary sexual state into imagined orgiastic excesses, so Wieners writes

to situate himself in a world vitalized to his needs:

 

Lost in his arms for two days,

I find my secret passions rewarded;

melting, blended as before

receiving kisses as from a King of the Black Sea,

no-one able to compete with his necessity.

('We Would Be Two Men')

 

Since Behind the State Capitol, published in 1975, Wieners has largely

fallen silent in terms of published work. His state of ravaged

psychophysical dissolution has needed time in which to repair, and so the

legend surrounding his name deepens. In the Sixties and Seventies he was

eminently prolific, his tormented lyrics subscribing to form and rhyme when

the latter were considered as impositional phenomena belonging to a dead

poetry. His method of writing constellated precision at a time when form

was in dibbcle.

Of his long silence Wieners has said: 'I am living out the logical

conclusion of my books.' Inside this broken man you will find Ava Gardner,

he refers to her as 'the Master', and any number of the glam icons with

whom he identifies. They are his inner reality. Take a walk across the park

with John Wieners, and he is dejectedly withdrawn into his own inner

pantheon of the stars. His clothes affect the little touches of style which

so individualize his work. He's headed towards a gay bar. An autumn leaf

falls in his hair.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:03:48 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      TKQ Web Page updated 10-15-97

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

There is a new link added. This link will take you to the page of Lowell

Folk Musician Bob Martin complete with audio samples. Those who attended

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac would have seen him perform at the Parkway Lounge.

An interview with Bob Martin is currently available in The Kerouac Quarterly

Vol. I, No. 2.  Go to:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

                      Thanks, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:53:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Jones <71224.1465@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Rocky Mountain Beat

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

Thanks, Dave. This is the best chuckle I've had on this list.

 

-----Original Message-----

From:   "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

Sent:   Tuesday, October 14, 1997 16:59

To:     INTERNET:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Rocky Mountain Beat

 

Was John Denver Beat?

 

                           --Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:14:59 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Entropy Operator <rush2@INSTANTLINUX.COM>

Subject:      Re: Rocky Mountain Beat

In-Reply-To:  <199710151357_MC2-23FF-D32@compuserve.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Oh come on,. its bad enough when people cant seperate the beats from the

hippies.. but from the sappy rednecks?

 

 

> Thanks, Dave. This is the best chuckle I've had on this list.

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From:   "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

> Sent:   Tuesday, October 14, 1997 16:59

> To:     INTERNET:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Rocky Mountain Beat

> 

> Was John Denver Beat?

> 

>                            --Dave B.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:03:47 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: TKQ Web Page updated 10-15-97

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:03:48 -0400 from

              <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

 

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:03:48 -0400 Paul A. Maher Jr. said:

>There is a new link added. This link will take you to the page of Lowell

>Folk Musician Bob Martin complete with audio samples. Those who attended

>Lowell Celebrates Kerouac would have seen him perform at the Parkway Lounge.

>An interview with Bob Martin is currently available in The Kerouac Quarterly

>Vol. I, No. 2.  Go to:

> 

>  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

> 

>                      Thanks, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

 

 

 

  I enjoyed listening to Martin at the Parkway lounge and continue to enjoy lis

tening to his cd.  He reminds me of a cross between Bob Dylan and Tom Waits, wi

th maybe a little bit of late Eric Anderson thrown in.  Several songs dealing w

ith Lowell and one devoted to Stella Kerouac.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:59:59 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                                                October 15, 1997

 

        I am sure readers of the Beat-List will be happy to know that I have

won yet another legal victory yesterday in my efforts to carry on Jan

Kerouac's legal battle to preserve and make accessible her father's entire

literary archive.

        John Sampas made yet another attempt to get Jan's suit dismissed in

Florida, and once again Mr. Sampas lost.  Judge Shames in the Sixth Circuit

Court of Pinellas County ruled against Mr. Sampas's petition to have the

case dismissed, stating that the court in Florida must await determination

by the Santa Fe (New Mexico) appellate court as to my powers as Jan's

literary executor before any such dismissal can be considered.

        The determination in New Mexico will take place within a few months.

I am confident of victory there as well.

        Recently Mr. Sampas placed a statement on the worldwide web that it

is his intention "to eventually make available all of the manuscripts and

archives of Jack Kerouac to scholars."  He made the exact same statement,

thru his lawyer George Tobia, in New York, at Jan Kerouac's press

conference, THREE AND ONE HALF YEARS AGO.  Once again, I ask why, if Mr.

Sampas is sincere in this declaration, he does nothing to act on it?  And

why has he forced Jan Kerouac, and now myself in my capacity as her literary

executor, to fight him inch by inch in court, to compel him to place these

manuscripts, papers, tapes, notebooks, etc.,  in a library?

        Why does he not cooperate with me in getting Jack Kerouac's papers

into a library now?  I have stated over and over again, over the past two

and one half years, my willingness to work with Mr. Sampas to see that the

Kerouac archive is permanently preserved in a scholarly institution and made

accessible to all scholars.  The placing of these papers on deposit in a

library does not need to await determination of whether Jan Kerouac and Paul

Blake should receive any financial gain from the Jack Kerouac's Estate.

That is a separate issue, and if money is paid by a library for these

papers, it could be held in escrow until a court decides whether Blake and

Jan's Estate should have a share of it.

        If, as Jan's executor, I finally win some control over Kerouac's

literary legacy, it is my intention to make it AVAILABLE TO ALL, not the

property of a small in-group who all adhere to a politically correct line.

I would like to see a Kerouac committee in Lowell, for instance, that does

not simply organize presentations that please Mr. Sampas.  I feel it was a

disgrace again, at Kerouac week this year, that not a single mention was

made of Jan Kerouac's death, no form of tribute, either in photos, readings

of her work, spoken memories of her, was given--DESPITE THE FACT THAT JAN'S

REMAINS WERE BURIED IN NEARBY NASHUA, NEW HAMPSHIRE, ONLY FOUR MONTHS

BEFORE, on June 5, 1997.

        I also read in the paper that Mr. Sampas has selected Douglas

Brinkley to be the only person in the world to have access to Kerouac's

papers and other archival materials, for the purpose of writing a "defintive

biography" that will presumably please Mr. Sampas.  I say this is not right,

that those papers and archival materials should be available to every

scholar who wants to write about Jack Kerouac--not just someone who has said

the right sort of flattering things to Mr. Sampas.

        These are the reasons for my continued legal fight, which is

difficult on my family, my career, and everything else in my life.  I am

aware that Mr. Sampas's friends will continue to say, as they have said on

the Beat-List in the past, that I am doing this for money, power, glory, and

greed, etc.

        I will keep you posted on further developments.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:22:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      John Wieners

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Rinaldo: Thank you for your quotations and comments on John Wieners.  It has

been years since I have read him and I now want to read everything I can get my

hands on.  Thanks again.  Donald  winte030@tc.umn.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:25:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: burroughsian scholars?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971015003316.13313A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:

 

>         oh here's a horrible thought: what if a 90s beat film was made

> and corporate america actually embraced such a thing? could you fathom a

> Kerouac "Happy-meal" or a Ginsberg action figure?

 

Kerouac happy meal: cheeseburger a la Mom with whiskey sauce.

 

Burroughs action figure: eight Kali arms, seven whirled around by on-board

concealed battery-operated motor.

 

        Hand 1: holds pen

        Hand 2: holds syrinnge

        Hand 3: aims gun

        Hand 4: holds sharp Benway scalpel

        Hand 5: holds Celine book closed

        Hand 6: holds kitten tenderly

        Hand 7: holds Russian Orthodox icon of Allen Ginsberg's face

        Hand 8: holds nothing, does not rotate. Arm is raised vertically,

                palm open facing. Do not fear.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:58:47 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Rocky Mountain Beat

 

John Denver may have been very sappy, and not even REMOTELY Beat, but a

redneck he was not...

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Entropy Operator

Sent:   Wednesday, October 15, 1997 10:14 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Rocky Mountain Beat

 

Oh come on,. its bad enough when people cant seperate the beats from the

hippies.. but from the sappy rednecks?

 

 

> Thanks, Dave. This is the best chuckle I've had on this list.

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From:   "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

> Sent:   Tuesday, October 14, 1997 16:59

> To:     INTERNET:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Rocky Mountain Beat

> 

> Was John Denver Beat?

> 

>                            --Dave B.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:07:46 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: burroughsian scholars?

 

Michael, thanks.  funny and imaginative.  ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Michael R. Brown

Sent:   Wednesday, October 15, 1997 12:25 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: burroughsian scholars?

 

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:

 

>         oh here's a horrible thought: what if a 90s beat film was made

> and corporate america actually embraced such a thing? could you fathom a

> Kerouac "Happy-meal" or a Ginsberg action figure?

 

Kerouac happy meal: cheeseburger a la Mom with whiskey sauce.

 

Burroughs action figure: eight Kali arms, seven whirled around by on-board

concealed battery-operated motor.

 

        Hand 1: holds pen

        Hand 2: holds syrinnge

        Hand 3: aims gun

        Hand 4: holds sharp Benway scalpel

        Hand 5: holds Celine book closed

        Hand 6: holds kitten tenderly

        Hand 7: holds Russian Orthodox icon of Allen Ginsberg's face

        Hand 8: holds nothing, does not rotate. Arm is raised vertically,

                palm open facing. Do not fear.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:00:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

 The Kerouac Quarterly contacted the estate for a comment on Gerald

Nicosia's posting.The below comment is from John Sampas, Executor of the

Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac -

 

" Gerald Nicosia's poisoned hand will never touch the Kerouac archive. His

touch is the touch of death."

 

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.com

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:50:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: burroughsian scholars?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971015003316.13313A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Jason, what do you think is going to happen when the movie of "On the

Road" is released? American popular culture is such that it embraces only

the superficialities and discards the rest.  Remember when "The Doors"

movie was released and every little kid searching for an identity became

an instant Doors fanatic? And what about this instant acceptance by MTV of

Punk Rock a la Green Dan and Offspring--rebellion without all those

annoying "political lyrics." I predict that a wave of berets and black

turtlenecks will hit the shopping malls as soon as that movie comes out.

cynically yours ;>

Anne Sneddon

 

 

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:

 

> Is there such a think as a "burroughsian scholar", one who researches and

> analyses all of Bill's work? If so, this person would have libraries full

> of information based on books, letters and essays that Bill has written

> over the years. It seems that Bill has left us with an eternal supply of

> information and creativity.

>         oh here's a horrible thought: what if a 90s beat film was made

> and corporate america actually embraced such a thing? could you fathom a

> Kerouac "Happy-meal" or a Ginsberg action figure?

>                                         -some humor....

>                                                         jason

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:20:06 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      archive

 

The disk that holds the archive for Beat-l is full.   As a result, Fred

Bogin and I will have to do something to free disk space.  Our plan is

to download all 1995 files and to erase them from the online archive.  I

will work on editing the downloaded files and restore those threads that

I think have archival importance at a later date.  If anyone has any

interest in keeping all postings to Beat-l for whatever mad reason, now

would be a good time download those files to your hard drive.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:46:06 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:00 PM 10/15/97 -0400, you wrote:

> The Kerouac Quarterly contacted the estate for a comment on Gerald

>Nicosia's posting.The below comment is from John Sampas, Executor of the

>Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac -

> 

>" Gerald Nicosia's poisoned hand will never touch the Kerouac archive. His

>touch is the touch of death."

> 

 

 

This response makes me think psychos are running the archive.

 

This is crazy talk.

 

Why don't they act rationally and say they disagree with Nicosia because

this this and this or something rather than psychotic rambling about the

touch of death.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:47:37 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Paul Maher of the Libel Quarterly

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:00 PM 10/15/97 -0400, you wrote:

> The Kerouac Quarterly contacted the estate for a comment on Gerald

>Nicosia's posting.The below comment is from John Sampas, Executor of the

>Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac -

> 

>" Gerald Nicosia's poisoned hand will never touch the Kerouac archive. His

>touch is the touch of death."

> 

                        Oct 15, 1997

Paul,

        As someone who was banned from this list previously for making

libelous statements, you are coming perilously close to libel once again.

If Mr. Sampas indeed made this statement, why can't he log on to the

Beat-List himself and announce his opinion in his own voice?  If, however,

you are simply making up curses for him, then I believe you are indeed

committing libel against me.

        Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:01:13 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: archive

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:20 PM 10/15/97 EDT, you wrote:

>The disk that holds the archive for Beat-l is full.   As a result, Fred

>Bogin and I will have to do something to free disk space.  Our plan is

>to download all 1995 files and to erase them from the online archive.  I

>will work on editing the downloaded files and restore those threads that

>I think have archival importance at a later date.  If anyone has any

>interest in keeping all postings to Beat-l for whatever mad reason, now

>would be a good time download those files to your hard drive.

> 

> 

 

how do we access the beat archive?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:04:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      Ferlinghetti record?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I am writing this because (1) I'm not getting responses when i send queries to

the other address.  I have been asking again and again if anyone knows where I

can find  the recording (to jazz accompanyment) of Ferlinghetti reading "Coney

Island of the Mind."  I have been unable to find it anywhere.  My e-mail address

is as follows; winte030@tc.umn.edu     I have also received a response about

what peoples' opinion is about why the poem "America" says, in the first

published edition, "when will you be worthy of your million trotskyites" and in

his first reading: "when will you be wothy of your million Christs." What's

up?-- Donald Winters

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:04:55 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Re[2]: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     Too sad, too sad. It would be great if this could be discussed in a

     more "beatific" manner. Something that shows compassion for Jack's

     legacy. This legacy is not only "material". It is so much more.

 

     Sean D. Young

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    10/15/97 5:00 PM

 

 

 The Kerouac Quarterly contacted the estate for a comment on Gerald

Nicosia's posting.The below comment is from John Sampas, Executor of the

Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac -

 

" Gerald Nicosia's poisoned hand will never touch the Kerouac archive. His

touch is the touch of death."

 

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.com

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:10:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      To Gerald Nicosia

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Good luck. I'm with you.  Donald Winters

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:11:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Sean Young wrote:

> 

>      Too sad, too sad. It would be great if this could be discussed in a

>      more "beatific" manner.

 

-OR-

 

"here we go again!"

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:31:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: burroughsian scholars?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971015003316.13313A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:

 

> Is there such a think as a "burroughsian scholar", one who researches and

> analyses all of Bill's work? If so, this person would have libraries full

> of information based on books, letters and essays that Bill has written

> over the years. It seems that Bill has left us with an eternal supply of

> information and creativity.

>         oh here's a horrible thought: what if a 90s beat film was made

> and corporate america actually embraced such a thing? could you fathom a

> Kerouac "Happy-meal" or a Ginsberg action figure?

>                                         -some humor....

>                                                         jason

> 

 

WOW...I think a Kerouac "Happy-Meal" would be wonderful!

 

And the toy would be a little bottle of port wine (my friend Alison says

as she reads over my shoulder)

 

and a Ginsberg action figure, i think we're really on to something here.

Im gonna buy the car that comes with all three!  Jack and Neal and Allen.

 

(My friend Alison says that somethings are just dumb)

 

And Neal comes with hammer-flipping action.  And Ginsberg has a string up

his ass--when you pull it he says, "I saw the best minds..."

And Jack has bottle drinking action.  Put anything in his hand and watch

it dissapear.

 

Then there's bill burroughs and if you're really cool (and your parents

got dough) you'll get the Marijuana farm.

 

HA, this is great.

 

my new life objective is to make beat action figures.

 

-matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:37:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ferlinghetti record?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Might Allen be talking, synonomously?  Just a thought.

 

Jon

 

At 05:04 PM 10/15/97 -0500, you wrote:

>I am writing this because (1) I'm not getting responses when i send

queries to

>the other address.  I have been asking again and again if anyone knows

where I

>can find  the recording (to jazz accompanyment) of Ferlinghetti reading

"Coney

>Island of the Mind."  I have been unable to find it anywhere.  My e-mail

address

>is as follows; winte030@tc.umn.edu     I have also received a response about

>what peoples' opinion is about why the poem "America" says, in the first

>published edition, "when will you be worthy of your million trotskyites"

and in

>his first reading: "when will you be wothy of your million Christs." What's

>up?-- Donald Winters

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:48:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@global.california.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971015210055.006902bc@pop.pipeline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

>  The Kerouac Quarterly contacted the estate for a comment on Gerald

> Nicosia's posting.The below comment is from John Sampas, Executor of the

> Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac -

 

> "Gerald Nicosia's poisoned hand will never touch the Kerouac archive.

> His touch is the touch of death."

 

That's interesting. Whose heavy hand is resting upon the archives right

now? It is not Gerald Nicosia's.

 

(And Nicosia evinced no designs upon the archive. He suggested it be put

under stewardship at a scholarly institution by mutual agreement. Is

the idea that in order to prevent the purpotedly fatal Nicosia touch upon

a single piece of the Kerouac opera, the archive shall be open to _none_?)

 

The closed first or the open palm ... which is better here? You decide.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:07:04 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

In-Reply-To:  <199710152146.OAA26632@hsc.usc.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> This response makes me think psychos are running the archive.

 

The Hungarian piano virtuoso Ervin Nyiregyhazi (1903-1987), pupil of one

of Liszt's pupils, in his prime probably on a par with Vladimir Horowitz,

composed more than 700 pieces of music that were left unpublished in

manuscript upon his death. Will we ever get to know what these works

were like? Not until Nyiregyhazi's exector dies, most likely, becase she -

N's *tenth* wife - and her new husband are said to hate Nyiregyhazi's

memory and just want the whole thing forgotten.

 

Wilhelm Reich. Brilliant, crazy, brilliant. Strong influence on Burroughs

and Ginsberg. His will was worded ambiguously re. putting his private

papers in storage for fifty years so history could not be falsified. His

executor interprets will to mean no one shall have any access

whatsoever - including sympathetic scholars. We will have to wait until,

what, 2008, to read his private writings.

 

Mary MacLane (1881-1929 - COMMERCIAL WARNING: I published an anthology

of her work in 1994). Talented, eccentric, bisexual, wrote about it at

age 19 in 1901 and got it published. Mentioned by Peters and Ferlinghetti

in _Literary San Francisco_ book. Wrote and starred in own silent movie

1918 _Men Who Have Made Love to Me_. Last ten years of her life a mystery.

Apparently died intestate - family sequestering letters she wrote during

last 10 years of her life. Will we ever know what she did 1919-1929?

Probably not.

 

Anyone see a pattern?&D{l^

 

 

t works > This is crazy talk. >

> Why don't they act rationally and say they disagree with Nicosia because

> this this and this or something rather than psychotic rambling about the

> touch of death.

> 

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:27:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul Maher of the Libel Quarterly

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I was officiating as a spokesperson for The Kerouac Quarterly and not John

Sampas. Nor do I take a biased stand upon this situation. Should John Sampas

had posted and Gerald Nicosia had made a comment to me about it, I would

have posted it verbatim by his wishes. Interpret this message as you will, I

am commiting no libel in performingthis action. Please contact John Sampas

to verify this, his number islisted. Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:12:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@global.california.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.BSI.3.95.971015154910.20048G-100000@global.california.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Michael R. Brown wrote:

 

> Anyone see a pattern?&D{l^

 

Ooops. Line noise made email send too soon.

 

Anyone see a pattern? Executors hanging on for dear life to creative

remains. Sad.

 

"Seeking life, I found aught but death. T'was only when I sought death

that I found life."

                        - that guy Burroughs called the Bard,

                          quoted from memory

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:52:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

Comments: To: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@global.california.com>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.BSI.3.95.971015153137.20048F-100000@global.california.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> 

> > "Gerald Nicosia's poisoned hand will never touch the Kerouac archive.

> > His touch is the touch of death."

 

"Life is suffering, it ends when you're dead."

        -AG

 

And we all know that Jack knew that true perfection would never be

reached until death.  He felt so bad that he brought a perfect soul into

this imperfect world that he would not accept her.  He didn't want to

acknowledge his own imperfections through the existence of a child.

I'd take that as a comment, Gerald.

 

        kind of serious kind of not,

                                        matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:57:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: archive

In-Reply-To:  <199710152201.PAA29730@hsc.usc.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> how do we access the beat archive?

 

You wouldn't be wanting to inflict the touch of death upon it, now would

you?

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:00:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: Re[2]: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

In-Reply-To:  <4453DE00.1326@dsw.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Sean Young wrote:

 

>      Too sad, too sad. It would be great if this could be discussed in a

>      more "beatific" manner. Something that shows compassion for Jack's

>      legacy. This legacy is not only "material". It is so much more.

 

Wasn't there some physicist named Einstein who showed that matter and

energy were not separate? Artists and new-bell-bottomed-Gen-X-lovely-kids

know it, Bach knew it, but it's not yet percolated down to literary

executors.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:03:58 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      civil discourse

 

Please everyone, let's keep a cool head when we discuss the estate.  No

name calling or accusations!  If you want to make a point, please do so

graciously and with civility or don't do it on this list.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:41:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: civil discourse

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:03 PM 10/15/97 EDT, you wrote:

>Please everyone, let's keep a cool head when we discuss the estate.  No

>name calling or accusations!  If you want to make a point, please do so

>graciously and with civility or don't do it on this list.

> 

Agreed. I have been caught under fire with this before. Everyone is free to

interpret the estate's comment at their own free will. I myself cannot

conclude nor agree with this comment. What I do know is that many of the

projects for the Kerouac "legacy" are put on hold until the termination or

settlement of this lawsuit. I know there are enough things to release and

again, most of the archives are indeed available. The abundance of

submissions I receive for the quarterly is evidence enough of the people who

are actually using them. When, not if, the details of this lawsuit are

settled, you will see many things happening with the archives. I personally

think that any person will be hard-pressed to produce evidence of the

archives being under neglect, abandon, abuse, or responsive to the demands

of the public at large. The Hemingway Estate and the Faulkner Estate, and

even the Thoreau Estate still haven't produced the complete archives to the

public. It is just a fact of life you have to live with. Has everyone even

fully digested Some of the Dharma yet? For Mr. Nicosia to callmy quarterly

the "Libel Quarterly" is a feeble attempt to raise a libelous comment from

me. Good Luck. I am still waiting for the FBI....Paul of The Kerouac

Quarterly...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:23:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ncary <ncary@CLARK.NET>

Subject:      Re: burroughsian scholars?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.94.971015171808.68070A-100000@spnode03.tcs.tulane.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Hi folks,

 

Regarding Burrough scholars, there is a new book on Burroughs scheduled

for January 1998 and

yes in the

works before his death. Though I guess the author might hold it back for

some revising.

 

It is called Wising Up the Marks: The Amodern William Burroughs by Timothy

S. Murphy at UCLA. The U of Cal Press is publisher. Scheduled as $45

cloth, $17.95 pb.

 

The desc says Murphy draws on such folks as Adorno, Sartre, Guattari,

and Deleuze....and it describes WSB as "a writer who combines aesthetics

and politics and who can perform as anthropologist, social goad, or media

icon, al with consummate skill"

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:52:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Denver

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

While I suspect that the Denver stuff is in jest, and as much as his

"image" was kinda yucky sacherine (sp) type of thing, he did write some

good songs.  The one mentioned about passing the pipe around was a very

good song.  Rocky Mountain High was about being in an altered state to

watch a meterorite shower in the Rockies.  And, like it or not, Country

Roads hit an archetype (sp) dead on.  I can only remember two more of

his songs, Grandma's Feather Bed, which was quite good, and the other

was the easy to dislike thing about Fill Me Again.

 

I believe he started out as a true folkie and did a time with the New

Christy Minstrels. I also do not think that his image and he were the

same.  After all, he sang about getting high and was popped more than

once of DWI/DUI.

 

But beat, well, I don't think that was a serious question, was it?

 

:-)

 

BTW, I traded my John Denver songbook for a Jethro Tull song book.  I

came out on top.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:53:37 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: civil discourse

 

Thanks Bill, a DISCUSSION of the matter might be useful and result in

something constructive; otherewise, we get nowhere.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Bill Gargan

Sent:   Wednesday, October 15, 1997 5:03 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        civil discourse

 

Please everyone, let's keep a cool head when we discuss the estate.  No

name calling or accusations!  If you want to make a point, please do so

graciously and with civility or don't do it on this list.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:58:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

>  The Kerouac Quarterly contacted the estate for a comment on Gerald

> Nicosia's posting.The below comment is from John Sampas, Executor of

> the

> Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac -

> 

> " Gerald Nicosia's poisoned hand will never touch the Kerouac archive.

> His

> touch is the touch of death."

> 

 

Paul:

 

I guess you can post what you wish, but I don't see why these old wounds

keep getting reopened.  If Sampas wants to comment on something, tell

him to come on list.  As for me, I was glad to see this old thread die

and hope it stays dead.  I don't see how this advances discussions of

Beat-L, but maybe others feel differently.

 

Thanks,

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:00:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Well, if only

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Well, if only I had made it a few more posts, I would have seen you got

there first.  Funny that I said kinda the same thing about Sampas

showing his own self.

 

Take care,

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:48:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Paul:

> 

>I guess you can post what you wish, but I don't see why these old wounds

>keep getting reopened.  If Sampas wants to comment on something, tell

>him to come on list.  As for me, I was glad to see this old thread die

>and hope it stays dead.  I don't see how this advances discussions of

>Beat-L, but maybe others feel differently.

> 

I don't think it reopened anything. It is a fact of life in the world of

litigation and copyright. If this is what the Estate has to say isn't anyone

curious to hear it voiced? Or....hidden. I am officiating as a contributor

to the Beat-L as I have many times in the past. I live in close proximity to

the Estae. I simply call, like any one of you can (1-978-458-2708), the

Estate and ask quite frankly what's up? I am curious. Do you want me to keep

it to my self in the future? How do you know he isn't on the list one way or

the other? I can still sleep at night no matter what anybody says, no wounds

are ever opened. I thought we were all adults here, perhaps you only are

satisfied with falsehoods or propaganda instead of the truth. If that is the

case then so be it...my truths and discoveries will find their place in the

quarterly, which, far from being libelous in any degree is fast becoming

respected in the academic community. Thanks for reading, Paul of TKQ. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:01:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>>  The Kerouac Quarterly contacted the estate for a comment on Gerald

>> Nicosia's posting.The below comment is from John Sampas, Executor of

>> the

>> Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac -

>> 

>> " Gerald Nicosia's poisoned hand will never touch the Kerouac archive.

>> His touch is the touch of death."

 

     first of all, glad to be back on the list, i see that, after a

year, the same threads are stil strong, interesting..  I just finished

Memory Babe and all I can say is wow.  Any biographical info I read

from here on is going to be redundant.  my hat off to Mr. Nicosia for

beautiful piece of work.  as for mr. sampas' comment, well, all of this

crap seems to be steeped in the same garbage.  everyone knows Jacks's

wishes concerning his archives, and for anyone involved in the

preservation of those archives to subvert his desire in any way is only

serving their own pathetic desires.  i mean, how hard is it to

understand?  if Jack wanted it, then relinquish the stuff to everyone

who loves him and his work.  make it available, in libraries, on the

internet, free.. the beauty of the written word is it's infinite

reproducibility.  i don't necessarily agree with making the originals

accessible to anybody who walks in off the street... but at the same

time you can't hoard them.  Many of you are sick of this discussion,

but the fact remains that the incessant bullshit continues... it's just

incomprhensibly annoying.  what the hell was Ginsberg doing when he

dismissed Jan's crusade in her father's name as insignificant? i

dunno... just seems a lot more complicated than it really needs to

be....

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:18:03 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

In-Reply-To:  <344566AF.5C3F2530@scsn.net> from "R. Bentz Kirby" at Oct 15,

              97 08:58:23 pm

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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Bentz wrote:

> I guess you can post what you wish, but I don't see why these old wounds

> keep getting reopened.  If Sampas wants to comment on something, tell

> him to come on list.  As for me, I was glad to see this old thread die

> and hope it stays dead.  I don't see how this advances discussions of

> Beat-L, but maybe others feel differently.

 

I agree -- the last time we discussed the Kerouac estate a lot of

people ended up acting like real jerks.  Just please let's not

get back into "You started it" "No you started it" "No *you*

started it" "No *he* started it".  And please, anybody who's

posting about the Kerouac estate -- if you're posting more

than once a day, you're getting too emotional.

 

Over and out ...

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|              *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                    |

|                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:30:56 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

     does anyone on the list have any videos of Jack?  interviews,

etc.? they'd be willing to copy for me, or trade for copies of whatever

I might have that they'd be interested in?  very interested in seeing

Jack on video.  Is there a bootleg market for rare Kerouac recordings?

are there rare Kerouac recordings in circ?  anyone with knowledge in

this area please offer your insight. thanks.

     also, what exactly is availble to the public for research in the

places where archival stuff is stored, if any at all?  like in a new

york library? has that all been put on hold till the suits are resolved?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:53:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Beat-l a fact only.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"I would like to see a Kerouac committee in Lowell, for instance, that does

not simply organize presentations that please Mr. Sampas.  I feel it was a

disgrace again, at Kerouac week this year, that not a single mention was

made of Jan Kerouac's death, no form of tribute, either in photos, readings

of her work, spoken memories of her, was given--DESPITE THE FACT THAT JAN'S

REMAINS WERE BURIED IN NEARBY NASHUA, NEW HAMPSHIRE, ONLY FOUR MONTHS

BEFORE, on June 5, 1997." - Gerry Nicosia

 

Last year at our (LCK) main event at the Smith Baker Center Ed Sanders paid

a nice tribute to Jan Kerouac with John, Tony and Jim Sampas sitting in the

audience watching the show. Bill Gargan our list administrator was there

and can verify this. This year at the mass for Jack and Stella we were all

asked to pray for the soul of Jan Kerouac and I heard both Tony and John

Sampas voice distinctly say "Lord hear our prayer" along with the rest of

the people attending the service. It was a prominent Kerouac committee

member who mentioned Jan and asked the congregation to pray for her soul.

If you don't believe this Gerry you can call father Gallager at St. Louis

de France church in Lowell and ask him. Gerry you weren't there at either

time so you don't know what happened and you try to get the beat-l group

against Lowell Celebrates Kerouac committee for some personal vendetta. We

are a group of all volunteers with basically no money to speak of. We all

work very hard to put this on every year because we love Jack. Nobody gets

paid one red cent. Keep your argument with John and not with us and don't

try to drag down a group of people who work very hard every year for a good

cause. Our meetings are public we meet the third Thursday of the Month we

are accepting proposals for events next year. All members of the beat-l are

invited to attend. We welcome your support. To make a donation,

or to find out more about Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., write:

P.O. Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853.

                                  Phil Chaput

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:51:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      9th district

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i just recieved an e-mail from that stated

"

This is Shokkee of the 9th Dist.

        I am writing with open arms and an open mind to hear suggestions

and

comments of your personal favorites listed among the "Beat Super Nova,"

crew

list.

 

 

I have never heard of this. any ideas or information what this could be

about

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:53:18 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      let's get our facts straight

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                                                October 15, 1997

In response to posts by Paul Maher and Phil Chaput:

 

        As much as I admire the loyalty Mr. Maher and Mr. Chaput have shown

to their leader, coming to his aid after he was knocked to the canvas in

Florida, I must point out that most of what they have to say is quite far

from the truth.

        Mr. Maher again trots out his old argument--"most of the archives

are indeed available"--when in our last verbal go-round I listed the entire

contents of the Kerouac archive, and PROVED that no more than 5%, if that

much, are actually available at the Berg Collection at the New York Public

Library.  I have never denigrated that collection, and I do not denigrate it

now.  Jan Kerouac and I met with Rodney Phillips, the curator, and we both

liked him.  It was clear that he WOULD LIKE TO OWN the Jack Kerouac archive.

But 5% or less can hardly give scholars what they need to assess the

development of Kerouac's whole oeuvre.

        What is there is certainly worth looking at.  But the numerous

drafts of a dozen major books, including VISIONS OF CODY, VISIONS OF GERARD,

ON THE ROAD, DHARMA BUMS, BIG SUR, DR. SAX, THE SUBTERRANEANS, and VANITY OF

DULUOZ, are simply not there.  Only small pieces of two other major works,

DESOLATION ANGELS and MAGGIE CASSIDY, are available there. Most of his

unpublished books (many of them never finished) are not there--VISIONS OF

BILL, VISIONS OF LUCIEN, AND THE HIPPOS WERE BOILED IN THEIR TANKS, THE SEA

IS MY BROTHER, MEMORY BABE, and a dozen others, including a whole novel

written in French.  Only a tiny portion of the notebooks are there.  Only a

smattering of the thousands of letters Kerouac filed away are there.  None

of the tapes, none of his personal scrapbook clippings, none of his personal

photos, etc. etc. Excuse me if I don't spend five hours on this catalogue,

which I already did the first time around.

        Mr. Maher claims many archives are still unavailable, and he cites

Hemingway, Faulkner, and Thoreau.  The Thoreau archive has been available at

the Huntington Museum since the turn of the century.  I don't know the facts

on Hemingway and Faulkner, but I there is good reason to suspect Mr. Maher

is simply talking off the top of his head again.  I will check.

        Of course Mr. Maher is hardly known for accuracy of language.  Could

he please explain to us how somone's touch (mine) can "poison" pieces of

paper in an archive?  Or how my alleged "touch of death" could harm the Jack

Kerouac archive?  Perhaps in his role of impartial journalist he could

inquire of Mr. Sampas how an archive can be killed?

        Never mind that this person with the supposed "killing touch" (me)

wrote MEMORY BABE, known as "the best of the Kerouac biographies."  That's

not Nicosia patting himself on the back.  That's what Bruce Cook wrote in

his big article "King of the Road" in the WASHINGTON POST BOOK WORLD,

Sunday, August 31, 1997.

        As for Mr. Chaput telling me how warmly his Lowell Kerouac Committee

has treated Jan Kerouac, let's look at the facts.  Never once in her

lifetime did they invite her to Lowell, even for the dedication to the

Commemorative (Brad Parker had to pay her way, and she still wasn't allowed

to come up on the dais with Stella Sampas).  Last year they made no official

mention of her.  Ed Sanders TOOK IT UPON HIMSELF to say some kind words

about Jan, because Ed is a good man.  Ed signed the petition at NYU saying

Jan should not have been hauled out by police to keep her from speaking at a

conference about her own father.  The best I can say for the Lowell Kerouac

Committee is at least they didn't cut off his hotel room, as they did to

Michael McClure after he spoke some good words about me from their stage in

1993.

         And this year, Phil?  I didn't make it up to Lowell.  As usual, the

man who wrote "the best of the Kerouac biographies" (Bruce Cook, WASHINGTON

POST BOOK WORLD) did not get an invitation.  But I did peruse your brochure,

and every piece of literature your committee put out.  I DID NOT SEE JAN

KEROUAC'S NAME SO MUCH AS MENTIONED ANYWHERE.  I DID NOT SEE A PICTURE OF

HER, I DID NOT SEE A MENTION OF HER BURIAL, I DID NOT SEE A QUOTE FROM HER

WORKS.   I also read the two articles in the LOWELL SUN purporting to cover

the events of Kerouac Week.  Again, I saw no mention of a tribute to Jan.

If indeed "a prominent Lowell committee member" actually asked that Jan's

soul be prayed for, I applaud him.  But why can't you mention his name?  I

find that really strange.  Could he be arrested or lose his job if word gets

out that he prayed for Jan Kerouac?

        As for John Sampas supposedly saying, "Lord hear our prayer," it

would have been more helpful to Jan if he hadn't tried so hard to cut off a

substantial portion of her royalties while she was dying.

        Come on, Phil, you're going to have to do better than that to show

me your committee has made any real effort to honor Jan Kerouac's memory.

        And it was you, dear Phil, who told me when you called me on the

phone two years ago--do you remember?--that anyone on the Kerouac Committee

would have to be nuts to oppose anything a Sampas wanted--you were

specifically referring to a project Jim Sampas had proposed at a recent

committee meeting.  I can dig out my notes on our conversation, if you need

me to be more specific.

        So why have you changed your tune?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:59:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat-l a fact only.

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971015235338.006c8e40@pop.tiac.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>"I would like to see a Kerouac committee in Lowell, for instance, that does

>not simply organize presentations that please Mr. Sampas.  I feel it was a

>disgrace again, at Kerouac week this year, that not a single mention was

>made of Jan Kerouac's death, no form of tribute, either in photos, readings

>of her work, spoken memories of her, was given--DESPITE THE FACT THAT JAN'S

>REMAINS WERE BURIED IN NEARBY NASHUA, NEW HAMPSHIRE, ONLY FOUR MONTHS

>BEFORE, on June 5, 1997." - Gerry Nicosia

> 

>Last year at our (LCK) main event at the Smith Baker Center Ed Sanders paid

>a nice tribute to Jan Kerouac with John, Tony and Jim Sampas sitting in the

>audience watching the show. Bill Gargan our list administrator was there

>and can verify this. This year at the mass for Jack and Stella we were all

>asked to pray for the soul of Jan Kerouac and I heard both Tony and John

>Sampas voice distinctly say "Lord hear our prayer" along with the rest of

>the people attending the service. It was a prominent Kerouac committee

>member who mentioned Jan and asked the congregation to pray for her soul.

>If you don't believe this Gerry you can call father Gallager at St. Louis

>de France church in Lowell and ask him. Gerry you weren't there at either

>time so you don't know what happened and you try to get the beat-l group

>against Lowell Celebrates Kerouac committee for some personal vendetta. We

>are a group of all volunteers with basically no money to speak of. We all

>work very hard to put this on every year because we love Jack. Nobody gets

>paid one red cent. Keep your argument with John and not with us and don't

>try to drag down a group of people who work very hard every year for a good

>cause. Our meetings are public we meet the third Thursday of the Month we

>are accepting proposals for events next year. All members of the beat-l are

>invited to attend. We welcome your support. To make a donation,

>or to find out more about Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., write:

>P.O. Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853.

>                                  Phil Chaput

 

Mr. Chaput,

 

How wonderful that the Lowell Celebrates Kerouac Committee included Jan

Kerouac in the memorial mass. So good too that a prominent Kerouac

committee member publically asked people to pray for Jan Keroauc.  To know

that you personally heard Tony and John Sampas say, "Lord hear our prayer."

is powerful medicine. How sad that Jan's inclusion wasn't announced in

advance. If the national media had been informed that the Memorial Mass for

Jack Kerouac and his wife Stella was going to included his daughter Jan

Keroauc you might have attracted a larger crowd--both here on this side,

and possibly, in that heavenly auditorium in the great beyond--where many

of the players are all-knowing, the women are all good looking and the kids

are above average ?

 

Of course there's always next year.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing the program for '98.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:38:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:30 PM 10/15/97 -0400, you wrote:

>     does anyone on the list have any videos of Jack?  interviews,

>etc.? they'd be willing to copy for me, or trade for copies of whatever

>I might have that they'd be interested in?  very interested in seeing

>Jack on video.  Is there a bootleg market for rare Kerouac recordings?

>are there rare Kerouac recordings in circ?  anyone with knowledge in

>this area please offer your insight. thanks.

>     also, what exactly is availble to the public for research in the

>places where archival stuff is stored, if any at all?  like in a new

>york library? has that all been put on hold till the suits are resolved?

> 

Hi! I have a list on my web site of Kerouac archive material placed on

deposit and donated to the New York Public Library by the Kerouac Estate. It

is at:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/Kerouac Quarterly.html

 

          Take care, Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:43:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.94.971015184825.68070D-100000@spnode03.tcs.tulane.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>> 

>> > "Gerald Nicosia's poisoned hand will never touch the Kerouac archive.

>> > His touch is the touch of death."

> 

>"Life is suffering, it ends when you're dead."

>        -AG

> 

>And we all know that Jack knew that true perfection would never be

>reached until death.  He felt so bad that he brought a perfect soul into

>this imperfect world that he would not accept her.  He didn't want to

>acknowledge his own imperfections through the existence of a child.

>I'd take that as a comment, Gerald.

> 

>        kind of serious kind of not,

>                                        matt

 

May not have wanted to but did. Read everything to the end. Including his

last letter to Paul.

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 04:03:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: let's get our facts straight

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I think some people are happier if they weren't contested  at all. Am I

speaking off the top of my head or am I recalling, somewhat distantly, a

quote from the The American Studies Journal from August 1992 about literary

archive availability? I guess I should really get ALL my facts straight

before I dare say anything that may collide with the cherished views of Mr.

Nicosia. Pardon me folks but I am not no Stone Phillips, a journalist with a

mission to get into the real John Sampas. I simply asked, after reading a

post here, what is the official word of the estate on this matter? He spoke

and I relay it to you. Again, John Sampas' number, and he does not care

about this, is 1-978-458-2708. Ask him yourself what he meant. Just don't

stone me because I have the nerve to ask. I have no say in what goes on in

the Sampas family. I merely maintain a web page as well as a quarterly and

conduct my own research for my own work. That, my friend, is first and

foremost in my world and all that I can ask for. Why though, does everything

have to be available right now? This very minute? Why not after the turn of

the century? Why not fifty years from now when most of us are dead. Why does

it have to happen when YOU are alive? That is what makes no sense my friend.

You act like it has been buried indefinitely. Is it hard to assume that a

lot of it isn't in there right now because of this lawsuit? That is the core

of the matter at hand, not a decision of John Sampas' of which does not rest

on his authority alone. He is the EXECUTOR of the Sampas family's hold on

the estate. Not the sole decision-maker. Ask Sterling Lord for that matter,

or maybe John Lash. I know of at least six things in the works for release

to the public. Work on the French novel is ongoing as wellas The Sea Is My

Brother. We now know the journals are being published. More letters. I think

if the archives aren't available, even to me and I have written a book, its

my own tough luck. Write around them, that's all you can do. There are

several works written, being written, and yet to be written which have been

accomplished without the help of all the archives. That's a fact of

scholarship. Tired now, Goodnight. Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:44:14 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Lew Welch's autumn--part one

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THE IMPORTANCE OF AUTUMN

 

when that autumnal wind

busy with the rubbish of the year

divests the tree of lingering ornaments

sending them whirling with the fallen ones

 

when that consumptive flush

that culmination

pretense

fragmentation

reveals a tree of sticks

that cannot cage the wind

 

and ducks pass black and low

in a sky of so intense a glare

that gulls seem gray

 

then look closely

 

for in this primal light

 

you'll see love walking

with the wind pressed to her thighs

 

you'll see her as she dances

dancing counter to the whirling leaves

 

you'll see her dance 'til suddenly she

stops

quieting the leaves

 

some settle on her breast and hair

one floats by - she

hits it with her hand

 

and vanishes

 

then on a field of dark pine trees

burst flocks of gulls

white

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:44:25 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Lew Welch's autumn--part two

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FALL

 

Wet

the dead leaves stick upon the hillside

 

among them

          beads of a light rain

gathered in her short-cropped hair

                          the lean girl walks

 

tweeds

 

befitting her.

 

Break not upon a four-foot hedge the

crisp leaf dangling

 

shallowly the river flows

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:54:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Ferlinghetti record?

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Donald,

 

        Your query about the Ferlinghetti recording made me curious as I'd

just bought a Kenneth Rexroth recording and knew that another recording

existed with he and Ferlinghetti. the only trace I could turn up was the

following and it isn't clear whether he performs C"Coney Island..." on it.

 

                Antoine

 

                ***********************

 

 The Coney Island of Lawrence Ferlinghetti. ([Sausalito, CA]: Chris Felver,

1996).

     1 videocassette 59 min. VIDEO/C 4402 Media Center; also: Bancroft (in

process)

 

     Featuring Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Allen Ginsberg, Gregory Corso, Anne

Waldman, Nancy Peters, Ed Sanders, Amiri Baraka,

     Michael McClure, Philip Whalen, Neeli Cherkovski.

 

     Amerian poet and publisher, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, expounds upon the

role of poets and authors of dissident literature in American

     culture. Includes commentary by other American authors of the Beat

Generation.

 

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/BeatGen.html#Coney Island

 

                **********************

 

>I am writing this because (1) I'm not getting responses when i send queries to

>the other address.  I have been asking again and again if anyone knows where I

>can find  the recording (to jazz accompanyment) of Ferlinghetti reading "Coney

>Island of the Mind."  I have been unable to find it anywhere.  My e-mail

address

>is as follows; winte030@tc.umn.edu

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 04:35:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Last word on this matter

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In the future, to prevent this meaningless tirade from enduring longer, I

will only report, via web page news, what the press says. Investigative

inquiries only arouses contempt, bitterness, and rebuttal. My interests, of

course, is to be able to read and use as research ALL of Jack Kerouac's

works too. Since that is not the case so be it. I have a ton of other things

to read. I do not "make up things off the top of my head" being the editor

of a publication which emphasizes Jack Kerouac as its subject. This

quarterly, which is being established as the first scholarly journal dealing

with the man and his works is gaining steam as we speak. With help in the

future from such people as Columbia University professor Ann Douglas, Naropa

Institute, Michigan State U., U. of New Brunswick, and so on releases it

from any speculation of this as being another bumpkin publication from a

rabid fan. This is surely not a profit-making venture. Starting anew, and

not being caught up in this drivel, I hope everybody concerned will maintain

equal footing  with issues only lawyers on the case can understand.

Admiteedly, I don't even know what is going on.  Paul Maher of The Kerouac

Quarterly.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:22:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "IamAs I Be@aol.com" <IamAsIBe@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: jazz

 

OK, On the Jazz tip......

...... since many great jazz artists are being mentioned, I just could not

let my favourite ingenious sax players go unmentioned !!!   :-)

 

Hank Mobley !! ~~

Eric Dolphy !! ~~

Cannonball Adderley !! ~~

Sonny Rollins !! ~~

Wayne Shorter !! ~~

John Coltrane !! ~~

Dexter Gordon !! ~~

 

Whew, I am getting exited !!    ;-)

 

Thanks guys,  I appreciate you to the maximum !! God Bless.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:26:33 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: burroughsian scholars?

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On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:23:36 -0400 ncary wrote:

 

> From: ncary <ncary@CLARK.NET>

> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:23:36 -0400

> Subject: Re: burroughsian scholars?

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> Hi folks,

> 

> Regarding Burrough scholars, there is a new book on Burroughs scheduled

> for January 1998 and

> yes in the

> works before his death. Though I guess the author might hold it back for

> some revising.

> 

 

And there's one by my Beat Gen. Seminar leader, Graham Coveney (I think that's

his name - short term memory not too good - and it might be rude to ask him

again!)

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"When the going gets wierd...."

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:29:25 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: burroughsian scholars?

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On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:07:46 UT Sherri wrote:

 

> From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:07:46 UT

> Subject: Re: burroughsian scholars?

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> Michael, thanks.  funny and imaginative.  ciao, sherri

> 

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Michael R. Brown

> Sent:   Wednesday, October 15, 1997 12:25 PM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: burroughsian scholars?

> 

> On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:

> 

> >         oh here's a horrible thought: what if a 90s beat film was made

> > and corporate america actually embraced such a thing? could you fathom a

> > Kerouac "Happy-meal" or a Ginsberg action figure?

> 

 

Kerouac "Happy-meal": Amphetamines, a jug of wine and an orange (see Dharma

Bums)

 

Burroughs "Happy-lunch": As normal, but with no container (gettit?  Oh I do make

myself laugh, ho ho ho."

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"A Bear of Very Little Brain"

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:31:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      Jazz-God

In-Reply-To:  <971015223718_862303831@emout09.mail.aol.com>

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The true jazz-god, and the living Jack Kerouac is an amazingly cool guy

named Bill Heid from Detroit. Anybody else know who I'm talking about? He

holds like 7 world records for hitch-hiking, and is THE jazz organist

right now, and probably forever!

 

On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, IamAs I Be@aol.com wrote:

 

> OK, On the Jazz tip......

> ...... since many great jazz artists are being mentioned, I just could not

> let my favourite ingenious sax players go unmentioned !!!   :-)

> 

> Hank Mobley !! ~~

> Eric Dolphy !! ~~

> Cannonball Adderley !! ~~

> Sonny Rollins !! ~~

> Wayne Shorter !! ~~

> John Coltrane !! ~~

> Dexter Gordon !! ~~

> 

> Whew, I am getting exited !!    ;-)

> 

> Thanks guys,  I appreciate you to the maximum !! God Bless.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:51:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: let's get our facts straight

In-Reply-To:  <199710160553.WAA15886@italy.it.earthlink.net>

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>        And it was you, dear Phil, who told me when you called me on the

>phone two years ago--do you remember?--that anyone on the Kerouac Committee

>would have to be nuts to oppose anything a Sampas wanted--you were

>specifically referring to a project Jim Sampas had proposed at a recent

>committee meeting.  I can dig out my notes on our conversation, if you need

>me to be more specific.

>        So why have you changed your tune?

> 

>Are you for real. I never talked to you about anything except what was

going on with the archive at U-Mass Lowell because I was concerned about

it. I wanted to hear both sides of the story. You did 99% of the talking.

How could you possibly come up with something like this? You are a very

desperate man to resort to the likes of this. All I can say folks is WOW!

WOW! WOW! what hogwash. I don't need notes. I know exactly what I said to

you and I never ever said anything like that. So again you are bull

shitting the folks on the beat-l like when you said that the Sampas family

hadn't put any archives in the library. Like you said Jan was never

mentioned either last year or this year. Now you say that it was Ed Sanders

doing it on his own. Well Gerry which is it? Tell the beat-l members which

facts they should believe. Keep your fight with John and leave LCK out of

this quagmire.

I don't represent John or the LCK committee I only represent myself.

I can see this is going nowhere as usual and nobody wants to hear this crap

so lets just end the whole thread. By the way it was Roger Brunelle vice

president of LCK who asked the congregation to pray for Jan. I am sure you

will have something bad to say about him. Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:20:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      "I" "saw"

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Thanks to all for your patience with me in my rather slow pondering

pathway through Howl.  I'm becoming more enamored with the poem

everyday.

 

The focus since i stepped back to the "I" and the "I saw" has given me

insights (via y'alls posts) not only into the poem - but into Allen

Ginsberg and even the possible connections between literature in general

and beat generation literature.

 

Yesterday morning, i decided to examine my little pocket poet series

booklet one more time in light of the "I" "Saw" notion one more time

before moving on in the poem.  I think that the "I" in "HOWL" seems to

contain the private persona of Allen at that point in his life, and

seems to be an "I" he is able to come back to later in his life as his

"self" had changed.  I can even see the notion of the "I" re-presenting

a far larger notion of "Be-ing" as Diane Carter has suggested.

 

My experiment that perhaps y'all can help me with (given more materials

available and more experience with studying this poem and AG in general)

was to examine the "I's" in HOWL -- in the poem Howl for Carl Solomon

and the other poems in the Pocket edition which seemed to possibly

reflect the realm of "I" in Allen's mind at this point in his life.  I

had little notion as to where it would lead, surprisingly, few if any

"I's" that i found elsewhere in the pocket edition seemed to suggest

such a universal all-encompassing "I" as the "I" which begins Howl for

Carl Solomon.  Reflecting on the connection between the "I's" and the

actions taken by the "I's", it seems that the type of seeing that Allen

"saw" at the beginning of Howl for Carl Solomon is also very very

broad.  It is clearly more than the notion of "saw" that i employed when

seeing Time magazine at the local filling station -- and probably even a

broader "saw" than the "saw" suggested in "Supermarket" which itself

reflects some sort of imaginative and visionary notion.

 

It seems easy to see how the "I" and the "I saw" at the opening of Howl

for Car Solomon is supposed to pull me or any reader within it into some

sort of royal (or perhaps anti-royal) "I" and a communal vision of "I

saw".  Again in most of the other examples of uses of "I" it seems easy,

as the reader, to remain outside the "I" and merely observe Ginsberg's

perspective.  But in Howl for Carl Solomon the "I" seems to encompass

the "me" of any reader who takes the words seriously.

 

Any insights from folks with more information on Howl for Carl Solomon,

with journals and letters from Allen in this period, or biographical

information which could add insights (if there is insight to begin with

in this post) would be appreciated.

 

What follows is the scratches i have on several index cards on my coffee

table:

 

Howl and Other Poems

 

Howl for Carl Solomon

 

"I saw..." p.9

"to find out if I had a vision" p.14

"you are not safe I am not safe" p.16

 

"Moloch in whom I sit lonely!" p.17

"Moloch in whom I dream Angels!" p.17

"Moloch in whom I am a consciousness without a body!" p.17

"Moloch whom I abandon!" p.17

 

"I'm with you in Rockland" (many times) pp. 19-20

"you're madder than I am" p.19

 

A Supermarket in California

 

"thoughts I have" p.23

"for I walked" p.23

"I went into" p.23

"I saw you" p.23

"I heard you" p.23

"I wandered in and out" p.23

"(I touch your book..." p.23

 

Transcription of Organ Music

 

"because I used it before" p.25

"I began to feel" p.25

"that's why I want to sing" p.25

"I expected the presence" p.25

"I saw my gray painted walls and ceiling" p.25

"I opened my door" p.25

"Can I bring back the words?" p.25

"waiting in space where I placed them,..." p.25

"I had a moment of clarity" p.26

"I watered faithfully" p.26

"how much I loved them" p.26

"I am so lonely in my glory" p.26

"--I looked up --" p.26

"...where I left it, since I left it open..." p.26

"I wish to enter the kitchen" p.26

"I remember when I first got laid" p.26

"I sat on the docks of Provincetown" p.26

"if I wished to enter" p.26

"if i ever need them" p.27

"I haven't the money" p.27

"I want people to bow" p.27

 

Sunflower Sutra

 

"I walked on the banks..." p.28

"--I rushed up enchanted--" p.28

"O my soul I loved you then" p.29

"what more could I name" p.29

"So I grabbed" p.30

 

America

 

"America I've given you all and now I am nothing" p.31

"I can't stand my own mind" p.31

"I don't feel good" p.31

"I won't write my poem till I'm in my right mind" p.31

"I'm sick of your insane demands" p.31

"When can I go into" p.31

"and buy what I need" p.31

"it is you and I" p.31

"I don't think he'll come back" p.31

"I'm trying to come to the point" p.31

"I refuse to give up" p.31

"I know what I'm doing" p.31

"I haven't read the newspapers" p.31

"America I feel sentimental" p.31

"America I used to be" p.31

"when I was a kid" p.31

"I'm not sorry" p.31

"I smoke marijuana" p.32

"every chance I get" p.32

"I sit in my house" p.32

"when I go" p.32

"I get drunk" p.32

"I'm perfectly right" p.32

"I won't say" p.32

"I have mystical visions" p.32

"America I still haven't told you" p.32

"I'm addressing you" p.32

"I'm obsessed" p.32

"I read it" p.32

"I slink past" p.32

"I read it" p.32

"I am America" p.32

"I am talking" p.32

"I haven't got" p.32

"I'd better consider" p.32

"I'd better consider" p.32

"I say nothing about" p.32

"I have abolished" p.33

"how can I write" p.33

"I will continue" p.33

"America I will sell" p.33

"America I am the Scottboro boys" p.33

American when I was seven" p.33

"made me cry I once saw" p.33

"the impression I got" p.34

"I'd better get" p.34

"I don't want to join" p.34

"I'm nearsighted" p.34

"America I'm putting" p.34

 

In the Baggage Room at Greyhound

 

"I realized" p.35

"I realized" p.36

"I saw naked" p.37

"before I quit" p.37

"I am a communist" p.37

"where I suffered so much" p.37

 

Song

 

"I wanted" p.41

"I always wanted" p.41

"I always wanted" p.41

"where I was born" p.41

 

In back of the real

 

"I wandered desolate" p.44

"I thought" p.44

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:49:19 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Estate Battle

 

Gerry, Phil, and Paul:  It's clear you don't agree on the issues

discussed in your last several posts to Beat-l.  The points of your

disagreements have been thoroughly aired on Beat-l already.  I think

that any further arguments you wish to make with one another should be

done off the list.   Having the list members as audience can only lead

to inflamed rhetoric and injured feeling on all sides, something none of

us wants.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:52:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ferlinghetti record?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Antoine: Thank you very much.  Donald

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:57:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997101609531449@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:49 AM 10/16/97 EDT, you wrote:

>Gerry, Phil, and Paul:  It's clear you don't agree on the issues

>discussed in your last several posts to Beat-l.  The points of your

>disagreements have been thoroughly aired on Beat-l already.  I think

>that any further arguments you wish to make with one another should be

>done off the list.   Having the list members as audience can only lead

>to inflamed rhetoric and injured feeling on all sides, something none of

>us wants.

> 

> I agree Bill I am all done talking to Gerry about this. Just remember who

made the first post and accusation this time. Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:16:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      Corso

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Many thanks to Antoine for his response.  I'm still looking, however, for the

record of Ferlinghetti's wonderful reading of "Coney Island of the Mind" with a

jazz accompaniment.  It's out of print but I thought somebody might want to sell

or trade (for maybe a Dylan bootlet, etc.).  I would also like to know if anyone

knows what has become of Gregory Corso.  I have fond memories of teaching

English in Shrewsbury, Mass. and coaching a speech student on his "dramatic

interp." of "Marrage" for a state speech tournament (a quite censored version of

the poem I'm afraid).  He won.  As a writer and teacher of poetry, I have always

been fond of Corso and felt  that his work was undervalued.  Besides "Marriage,"

I particularly enjoyed "Army" and "Two Poets Hitchkiking on the Highway."  I

always enjoyed his hilarious use of absurdist, dadaist imagery. --Donald (my

e-mail # is: winte030@tc.umn.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:02:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: "I" "saw"

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> RACE wrote:

> 

> It seems easy to see how the "I" and the "I saw" at the opening of Howl

> for Car Solomon is supposed to pull me or any reader within it into

> some

> sort of royal (or perhaps anti-royal) "I" and a communal vision of "I

> saw".  Again in most of the other examples of uses of "I" it seems >

> easy,

> as the reader, to remain outside the "I" and merely observe Ginsberg's

> perspective.  But in Howl for Carl Solomon the "I" seems to encompass

> the "me" of any reader who takes the words seriously.

> 

> Any insights from folks with more information on Howl for Carl Solomon,

> with journals and letters from Allen in this period, or biographical

> information which could add insights (if there is insight to begin with

> in this post) would be appreciated.

 

Pulling out all of the I's like that really does give a wonderful

perspective on how Ginsberg's writing reflects this movement to the

personal I as important in where he took poetry to a new level.  You

quote from Transcription of Organ Music which I think is my favorite

poem.  I was recently suprised to find that while Transcription is in the

Collect Poems 1947-80, it is not in the Selected Poems, 1947-1995.

 

In addition to your request for postings from biographical material,

letters, etc., I was hoping someone with a copy of the annotated Howl

could post what kind of changes Ginsberg made to the beginning few

stanzas in writing it.  What did he cross out, write in the margins

about, etc.?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:54:48 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: burroughsian scholars?

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Sounds like the elves back, almost.

 

Remember the Beat Xmas (or was it Thanksgiving) dinners last year?

 

js

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:30:05 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      leon! pls contact marie

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(sorry for the wasted bandwidth)

leon.

could you pls drop marie a note. she would like to hear from you - if you

can write before friday her address is noank@aol.com, if you write after

friday she can be reached at her usual email address (country@sover.net)

thanks

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:23:57 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Corso

In-Reply-To:  <344621be31a9717@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> from "Donald E. Winters" at

              Oct 16, 97 09:16:30 am

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> or trade (for maybe a Dylan bootlet, etc.).  I would also like to know if

 anyone

> knows what has become of Gregory Corso.  I have fond memories of teaching

> English in Shrewsbury, Mass. and coaching a speech student on his "dramatic

> interp." of "Marrage" for a state speech tournament (a quite censored version

 of

> the poem I'm afraid).  He won.  As a writer and teacher of poetry, I have

 always

> been fond of Corso and felt  that his work was undervalued.  Besides

 "Marriage,"

 

Me too -- it took me a few years to start catching Corso's charm and his

sense of humor, but at this point I like his stuff as much as anybody's.

 

As for his whereabouts, he's still hanging around not too far from

NY City -- a friend of mine just had dinner with him in the Village

a couple of weeks ago.  I believe he lives somewhere upstate but

I'm not sure.  Still writes, still shows up at Beat tribute

events if sufficiently tempted.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|              *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                    |

|                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:55:11 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

In-Reply-To:  <3441B9BB.45ED@sunflower.com>

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At 01.03 13/10/97 -0500, Patricia Elliott wrote:

>shooting with the men 1985

>  by patricia elliott

> 

>The tall thin man

>leaps to a crouch

>opening fire on his own heart.

> 

>i watched morgan stand stiff, posed,

>ignoring me, for who was she

>but some ol sow eyed gal.

>I am the ghost, the one that suvived.

> 

>trying to smell the hidden secrets

>in the face of the horrid honest man.

>ted was green with fear

> if this was a writer,

> 

>the tall slim eye once again

>baring the tattered muscle,

>He led me once and then again up to the gun.

>Both of us getting past past.

>I shot fast,

>He took my hand ,

>he sang,

>he wept and gave me tears.

> 

>we walked home through the dark.

> 

> 

the patricia's poem remind me

a Jack Kerouac televised in 1969,

during his italian tour to celebrate the 500th

series of novels of La Medusa with the book

"Big Sur" (translated in italian), the trip

was bad and Jack Kerouac wished "tell me off"

and at the end "of course not, but why don't

you shoot me?"

 

saluti a tutti,

rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:54:32 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Van Morrison.

In-Reply-To:  <3437C1E6.779@midusa.net>

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Alan Watts Blues                by Van Morrison

 

Well I'm taking some time with my quiet friend

Well I'm takin' some time on my own.

Well I'm makin' some plans for my getaway

There'll be blue skies shining up above

When I'm cloud hidden

Cloud hidden

Whereabouts unknown

 

Well I've got to get out of the rat-race now

I'm tired of the ways of mice and men

And the empires all turning into rust again.

Out of everything nothing remains the same

That's why I'm cloud hidden

Cloud hidden

Whereabouts unknown

 

Bridge

Sittin' up on the mountain-top in my solitude

Where the morning fog comes rollin' in

Just might do me some good.

 

Well I'm waiting in the clearing with my motor on

Well it's time to get back to the town again

Where the air is sweet and fresh in the countryside

Well it won't be long before I get back here again.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:02:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just a Few?

 

more talk...

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:30:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: let's get our facts straight

 

i love this...

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:25:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

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BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:

>Gerry, Phil, and Paul:  It's clear you don't agree on the issues

>discussed in your last several posts to Beat-l.  The points of your

>disagreements have been thoroughly aired on Beat-l already.  I think

>that any further arguments you wish to make with one another should be

>done off the list.   Having the list members as audience can only lead

>to inflamed rhetoric and injured feeling on all sides, something none of

>us wants.

 

 

     let's also be careful not to force ourselves to stick this in the

closet either.. it's extremely important.  i'm quite sure that gerry

phil paul are capable of being civil.  I see ev everyone's anger, it's

incredibly easy to get ripped about something like this, because there

are so many assenine components  to it, even the arguments that go on

here.  this name calling, and all these you said i saids are a waste of

time, for crying out loud.... i don't think anyone is out to kill the

Kerouac legacy, we're all interested in saving what we can of what's

out there, but we're not going to get anywhere with insignificant

bickering.  I'm rolling on the floor laughing to tears at this pathetic

hurricane when i think of jack's genius and love; where'd the meaning

get lost?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:33:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

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>> I agree Bill I am all done talking to Gerry about this. Just remember

>who

>made the first post and accusation this time. Phil

 

 

     what the hell?  am i going to have to separate you kids?  send you

to your room to think about what you've done?  have any of you

progressed mentally since the age of five?  "he started it."  Yeah, and

YOU responded equivalently.

   by the way, this is not an attack, just a lighthearted editorial

comment, i'm laughing my ass off right now...

   happy trails...

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:44:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Van Morrison.

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971016185432.00731634@pop.gpnet.it>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> Alan Watts Blues                by Van Morrison

 

What album is this from?  I'm a big fan but don't recognize this one.  Of

course he's got a song list that would stretch the length of Italy so I'm

not surprised.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:46:50 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

"In the jungle, the quiet jungle..."

 

well, kids,  i think it's about time we read some poetry together.  how bout

di Prima - would be good to discuss some Beat women's contributions for a

change. Corso, Welch, Snyder, McClure also come to mind....

 

any takers?

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:42:03 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: "I" "saw"

 

>Thanks to all for your patience with me in my rather slow pondering

>pathway through Howl.  I'm becoming more enamored with the poem

>everyday.

 

I haven't had to call on any reserves of patience yet to finish reading your

posts. I have been holding back from expressing how grateful I am for the

brilliant glimpses of your soul, heart and mind that you are sharing with

us.You have been saying nice things about my posts, and I don't want to

sound like I am reciprocating.

 

Sometimes I feel that we are all straining our flashlights in the forbidding

darkness of our world full of shadows. We are attracted to the searching

lights that flicker on our screens, recognition of fellow wondering

(wandering) searchers for clues to our lives.

 

Here is a scenario for a movie. Or is it  choreography for a dance? a score

for music? all of these? life maybe? Illuminated flashes of clues, looking

here, looking there, looking for this, looking for that, holding up our

finds, and what can we make of that clue left on the screens of our

imaginations, how do we fit the new surprises (If we are lucky. Without them

we are dead. Dead may be just fine in its time, it's bad to be dead while

alive.) into the new visions of eternities that we construct for here and

now.

 

It is these kinds of wonders that you always bring to me through this list.

You stumbled onto something when you  iluminated the shadowy ever present

hesitantingly acknowledged lurking "I" in the life of our communications to

one another. What's hiding beneath this dead leaf, that bloom on the tree

that is me that is rooted in the dirt and reaches for the sun. What better

place to search for it than in the writings of the beats. Even if it was not

they who invented the games of life all be their  collective "I"selves.

 

BTW you asked me some questions the other day about what was I doing at 72

not trying to play dead? Was that partly what you were kidding me about?  If

you were inquiring about my health, I am very pleased to report that my

(our) lifestyle, while having presented challenges and difficulties that

seem too much to handle, nevertheless seemed to not have caused wear and

tear that is customarily expected at today's prevailing rate of aging. I

know that worry, stress or drugs, are not the cause of grey hair, myths to

the conrary not withstanding. That post I got in an out of town post office

and I was on a high roll for two days, it's not here in my records. If there

were other things I left out, please backchannell me the questions.

 

That gathering in the Golden Gate park was an inspiration.

 

leon

 

 

 

 

 

 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:56:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      estate battle

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I agree with  what seems to be the majorityh opinion on this squabble.  It sucks

and I wish you would continue it between each other instead of through the

BEAT-L channel.  There is an important difference between the childish and the

childlike.  We need more of the CHILDLIKE and a hell of a lot less of the

CHILDISH!! -Donald

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:02:45 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

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Why is it that nothing Nicosia, Maher, or Chaput say or do in this

matter remind me in any way of anything remotely related to the

qualities I associate with Jack Kerouac?  How far the apples have fallen

from the tree.  Reminds me of a nice corporate takeover battle more than

anything else, or an especially ugly divorce.

 

js

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:57:30 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Dear Landlord

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     With all this estate controversy, it sort of reminded me of a great

     Dylan song. Especially the last verse. Here it is for you all.

     Peace be upon you.

     Sean D. Young

     --------------------------------------------------------------------

                    DEAR LANDLORD

                    (Words and Music by Bob Dylan)

                     1968, 1985 Dwarf Music

 

                    Dear landlord,

                    Please don't put a price on my soul.

                    My burden is heavy,

                    My dreams are beyond control.

                    When that steamboat whistle blows,

                    I'm gonna give you all I got to give,

                    And I do hope you receive it well,

                    Dependin' on the way you feel that you live.

 

                    Dear landlord,

                    Please heed these words that I speak.

                    I know you've suffered much,

                    But in this you are not so unique.

                    All of us, at times, we might work too hard

                    To have it too fast and too much,

                    And anyone can fill his life up

                    With things he can see but he just cannot touch.

 

                    Dear landlord,

                    Please don't dismiss my case.

                    I'm not about to argue,

                    I'm not about to move to no other place.

                    Now, each of us has his own special gift

                    And you know this was meant to be true,

                    And if you don't underestimate me,

                    I won't underestimate you.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:07:18 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Poetic Women

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On Sherri'shread of women Beat poets--is anyone familiar with the

inprint status of Joanne Kyger and Lenore Kandel--especially Kyger who

is a wonderful poet.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:02:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      women beats

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

But those names you mentioned are men?  What's your point? I thought you wanted

more discussion on women writers?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:13:19 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle--Make Good Wills Guys and Gals

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The productive outcome of this exchange would be to remind all you

writers out there to plan ahead for the care of your artistic children

as you would for the guardianship of your children.

 

Choose a good literary executor, and keep literary decisions out of the

hands of your conniving relatives and spouses!  Lew Welch (another

drinker) had the advantage of knowing that he was dissapearing--but all

his stuff is nicely housed at UC San Diego having been well taken care

of by Don Allen.  How nice it would have been if Jack had possesed this

foresight.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:13:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Jon B. Pearlstone" <THYE@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Van Morrison.

 

Alex:

 

As I have mentioned in prior e-mails--I am close friends with Alan Watts'

eldest son, Mark.  I just called him and he told me you will find the song

about his Dad on the Album:

 

Poetic Champions Compose

 

According to Mark, Van was a big Alan Watts fan and close friend and spent a

good deal of time with him at his retreat on Mount Tamalpais.

 

Mark also invited anyone with an interest in Alan Watts' spoken word or

writings to e-mail him at:

 

watts@alanwatts.com or visit his web site at alanwatts.com and he will be

happy to answer any other questions you may have.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Have a great day!

 

Jon Pearlstone

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:13:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Dear Landlord

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To Dean Young: As an insanely enthusiastic Dylan fan I'm endlessly amazed at how

Dylan's songs, "Dear Landlord," for example, seem to have an uncanny connection

with whatever issue is being discussed.  Thanks for your insightful connection

between the raging Kerouac legacy battle and that wonderful Dylan song. Donald

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:20:30 -0800

Reply-To:     jmaynard@csubak.edu

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Arthur Maynard <John_Maynard@FIRSTCLASS1.CSUBAK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Corso

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Levi Asher wrote:

 

> > or trade (for maybe a Dylan bootlet, etc.).  I would also like to know if

>  anyone

> > knows what has become of Gregory Corso.  I have fond memories of teaching

> > English in Shrewsbury, Mass. and coaching a speech student on his "dramatic

> > interp." of "Marrage" for a state speech tournament (a quite censored

 version

>  of

> > the poem I'm afraid).  He won.  As a writer and teacher of poetry, I have

>  always

> > been fond of Corso and felt  that his work was undervalued.  Besides

>  "Marriage,"

> 

> Me too -- it took me a few years to start catching Corso's charm and his

> sense of humor, but at this point I like his stuff as much as anybody's.

> 

> As for his whereabouts, he's still hanging around not too far from

> NY City -- a friend of mine just had dinner with him in the Village

> a couple of weeks ago.  I believe he lives somewhere upstate but

> I'm not sure.  Still writes, still shows up at Beat tribute

> events if sufficiently tempted.

 

I've been thinking this completely idle and irrelevant thought for years, and I

guess now's the time to say it:

 

Has anybody ever noticed that Gregory Corso's practically a ringer for Pete

 Rose?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:17:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Re: Van Morrison.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>> Alan Watts Blues                by Van Morrison

> 

>What album is this from?  I'm a big fan but don't recognize this one.  Of

>course he's got a song list that would stretch the length of Italy so I'm

>not surprised.

> 

>------------------

>Alex Howard

 

Poetic Champions Compose. 1987.

 

Van refers quite often to beat references.

In "Cleaning Windows" from Beautiful Vision, 1982

 

"I went home and read my Christmas Humpheries book on Zen.

Curiosity killed the cat,

Kerouac's Dharma Bums and On the Road.

What's my line, I'm happy cleaning windows."

 

Also, in "On Hyndford Street" from the double release HYmns To the Silence

 

"And reading Mr. Jellyroll

and Big Bill Broonzy

and"Realy the Blues by Mezz Mezzrow

and Dharma Bums by Jack Kerouac

over and over again."

 

I'm sure there's other songs with beat references but these are the first

ones that come to mind.

 

I've always seen Van as one of the real artists in the pop music field,

doing what he wants to do as an artist and not worrying about record sales

and pleasing the public very much.

 

Michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:36:46 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Poetic Women

 

James-

if i'm not mistaken City Lights is carrying a book or two of Kyger's.  i know

i saw it somewhere and think it was there...

 

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

Sent:   Thursday, October 16, 1997 11:07 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Poetic Women

 

On Sherri'shread of women Beat poets--is anyone familiar with the

inprint status of Joanne Kyger and Lenore Kandel--especially Kyger who

is a wonderful poet.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:41:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jazz-God

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Sara Feustle wrote:

>The true jazz-god, and the living Jack Kerouac is an amazingly cool guy

>named Bill Heid from Detroit. Anybody else know who I'm talking about? He

>holds like 7 world records for hitch-hiking, and is THE jazz organist

>right now, and probably forever!

 

What does it mean that he holds 7 world records for hitchhiking?

 

Michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:59:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Tyson Ouellette wrote:

>      let's also be careful not to force ourselves to stick this in the

> closet either.. it's extremely important.  i'm quite sure that gerry

> phil paul are capable of being civil.

 

 

no i don't think they are, i think if they want to discuss this dead

hand stuff they should do it off list.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:38:47 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Coffee House In The LA Times

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I opened the rag this morn and saw our friend Levi's Coffee House Writings

reviews along with a bunch of other so-called post modern books.

 

Here is the Coffee hous part with the whole dog under it

________

 

 In a strange twist of media, "Coffeehouse: Writings From the

                      Web" (Manning Publications, 316 pages, $24.95)

promises to bring

                      the best of a flourishing literary underground (heretofore

                      unrestrained by the demands of publishers and

publishing) to the

                      masses. Edited by Levi Asher and Christian Crumlish, this

                      paperback also features illustrations by Carl

Steadman, co-founder

                      of the legendary online magazine Suck.

 

______________________________________

 

Thursday, October 16, 1997

 

              BOOKSHELF / POP CULTURE

              Postmodernism a Preamble to the 2000s

              By D. JAMES ROMERO, Times Staff Writer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 PREV STORY

 

 NEXT STORY

                           As the turn of the century looms with hope and

tension, the

                           word "postmodern" has become de rigueur, a catch-all

                      phrase for the future-leaning literature, philosophies

and subcultures

                      that we hope will take us into the 2000s.

                           But few seem to know what the term actually means.

                      "Postmodern American Fiction: A Norton Anthology" (W. W.

                      Norton, 672 pages, $24.95) helps by presenting such

writers as

                      Thomas Pynchon, William S. Burroughs, Kurt Vonnegut,

Norman

                      Mailer, Mark Leyner, Joyce Carol Oates, William

Gibson, Douglas

                      Coupland, Umberto Eco and Jean Baudrillard, among others.

                           The anthology's well thought-out introduction

gives an excellent

                      definition of postmodernism: It is the melting of

fiction and

                      journalism, of high culture and low culture, of

traditional narrative

                      and nonlinear, nontraditional storytelling.

Postmodernism is a

                      fascination with the future, technology, image and our

ability to

                      communicate and feel.

                           Edited by Paula Geyh, Fred G. Leebron and Andrew

Levy, this

                      paperback tome is not a comprehensive guide to postwar

writing,

                      but it is a fitting introduction. Readers will find

Pynchon's "The

                      Crying of Lot 49," Oates' "The Turn of the Screw" and

Eco's

                      "Postmodernism, Irony, the Enjoyable." The book comes

with a

                      password for a Web site featuring new postmodern works of

                      "hypertext fiction."

                           In a strange twist of media, "Coffeehouse:

Writings From the

                      Web" (Manning Publications, 316 pages, $24.95)

promises to bring

                      the best of a flourishing literary underground (heretofore

                      unrestrained by the demands of publishers and

publishing) to the

                      masses. Edited by Levi Asher and Christian Crumlish, this

                      paperback also features illustrations by Carl

Steadman, co-founder

                      of the legendary online magazine Suck.

                           But the hot spot for popular literature isn't

cyberspace. It's

                      Scotland, where Irvine Welsh ("Trainspotting,"

"Marabou Stork

                      Nightmares") has sparked a new generation of writers

that trains its

                      collective pen on the local downtrodden. "Acid Plaid:

New Scottish

                      Writing" (Arcade Publishing, 256 pages, $13.95)

anthologizes this

                      phenomenon of '90s Scottish "grit-lit"--the work of

the new Scottish

                      beats. Included is a new short story from Welsh ("A

Fault on the

                      Line") and works from other notables, including Gordon

Legge,

                      Alan Warner and Duncan McLean. The book, introduced in

                      paperback, is edited by Harry Ritchie.

                           In "Fugitive Cultures: Race Violence & Youth"

(Routledge, 247

                      pages, $16.95), education professor Henry A. Giroux

examines the

                      effects of popular culture on America's children. The

mix, he

                      reports, isn't always good, from the Disney-fication

of young

                      children to the hyper-real violence that surrounds

teens on movie

                      screens. But Giroux saves his most venomous criticism

for the news

                      media, record companies that produce gangsta rap and

such "public

                      intellectuals" as Rush Limbaugh--who he says are

behind the "racial

                      coding" of violence in America, i.e. the portrayal of

violence as an

                      African American problem. The book, now in paperback,

                      sometimes is coded in sociology speak, but its

conclusions are

                      valuable to parents concerned about the cultural sea

in which their

                      children swim.

                           Among the flotsam they might find is "Generation

X: Field Guide

                      and Lexicon" (Orion Media, 200 pgs, $9.95) by Vann

Wesson, a

                      baby boomer from San Diego who wrote the book with the

                      assistance of several younger writers. The book is a

dire collection

                      of anecdotes roughly defining America's 13th

generation, as well as

                      a guide to youth slang. Many of the entries, however,

are woefully

                      inaccurate ("Techno House Music--A combination of

techno and

                      house music." There is no such genre). Marketers have

reduced the

                      price of the book and now are pushing it in the humor

                      category--"Guaranteed to make you laugh." Indeed.

                           From generation ecstasy comes "Tihkal: The

Continuation"

                      (Transform Press, 804 pages, $24.50) by Alexander & Ann

                      Shulgin, retired cosmonauts of psychedelia. The two

probably have

                      tried every psychedelic drug known to humankind, many

of which

                      were invented by chemist Alexander "Sasha" Shulgin

himself (he is

                      often called the godfather of ecstasy).

                           "Tihkal" is the culmination of their love and

work regarding these

                      drugs. Like its predecessor, "Pihkal," the book starts

with the

                      narrative of the couple's research with drugs, while

the second half

                      features the scientific data. Tihkal's focus is on

tryptamines; taken

                      together, both books cover the entirety of psychedelic

compounds.

                           The conclusion of this aging couple is that these

substances can

                      be very useful for the evolution of the mind. The Shulgins

                      acknowledge the dangers, however, and don't recommend that

                      users get in over their heads.

                           * D. James Romero reviews books about pop culture

every four

                      weeks. Next week: a look at the current magazines.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:45:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

this was a scrap of a poem from my journal, which is a pile of paper

laying in a drawer, occassionally i add a page or note to it.

 

it is from a day that i went out to freds with william and ted morgan.

I thought ted was a spook. on the scrap, the verses were seperated.

 

shooting with the men 1985  by patricia elliott

The tall thin man

leaps to a crouch

opening fire on his own heart.

 

the tall slim eye once again

baring the tattered muscle,

He led me once and then again up to the gun.

Both of us getting past past.

 

I shot fast, He took my hand ,

he sang, he wept and gave me tears.

we walked home through the dark.

 

 

i watched morgan stand stiff, posed,

ignoring me, for who was she

but some ol sow eyed gal.

I am the ghost, the one that suvived.

 

trying to smell the hidden secrets

in the face of the horrid honest man.

ted was green with fear

 if this was a writer.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:30:49 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: women beats

 

di Prima is a FEMALE first name Diane....

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Donald E. Winters

Sent:   Thursday, October 16, 1997 11:02 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        women beats

 

But those names you mentioned are men?  What's your point? I thought you

wanted

more discussion on women writers?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:53:05 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

 

Patricia - this is wonderful.  do you have more of this?

and who is Ted Morgan (ignorant, here)?

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Patricia Elliott

Sent:   Thursday, October 16, 1997 12:45 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

this was a scrap of a poem from my journal, which is a pile of paper

laying in a drawer, occassionally i add a page or note to it.

 

it is from a day that i went out to freds with william and ted morgan.

I thought ted was a spook. on the scrap, the verses were seperated.

 

shooting with the men 1985  by patricia elliott

The tall thin man

leaps to a crouch

opening fire on his own heart.

 

the tall slim eye once again

baring the tattered muscle,

He led me once and then again up to the gun.

Both of us getting past past.

 

I shot fast, He took my hand ,

he sang, he wept and gave me tears.

we walked home through the dark.

 

 

i watched morgan stand stiff, posed,

ignoring me, for who was she

but some ol sow eyed gal.

I am the ghost, the one that suvived.

 

trying to smell the hidden secrets

in the face of the horrid honest man.

ted was green with fear

 if this was a writer.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:59:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mitchell Smith <Praetor77@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Corso and Ferlinghetti

 

I have searched the biliographies and can find no mention of a Ferlinghetti

reading of "coney island" poems to jazz OTHER THAN the "Readings in the

Cellar" record by Ferlinghetti and Rexroth. There are other Ferlinghetti

records that do not fit that description: "Tentative Dinner..." (no jazz,

later poems), Assassination Raga (some music, no jazz, later poems),

"Starting From San Fran" (no music, poems from that title). If anyone can

verify Mr. Winters search object, I'm very interested as well.

 

mjs

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:27:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Jazz-God

In-Reply-To:  <v01530500b06bd87f8e5d@[204.181.15.86]>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Michael Czarnecki wrote:

 

> Sara Feustle wrote:

> >The true jazz-god, and the living Jack Kerouac is an amazingly cool guy

> >named Bill Heid from Detroit. Anybody else know who I'm talking about? He

> >holds like 7 world records for hitch-hiking, and is THE jazz organist

> >right now, and probably forever!

> 

> What does it mean that he holds 7 world records for hitchhiking?

> 

> Michael

 

        It means he is actually in the Guinness book of World records 6 or

7 times for the longest distance hitch-hiked.  I have the records around

here somewhere, but am too lazy to go get them right now.:) I'll post them

later. Anybody else on here know the guy? His music is the embodyment of

bop, and his life and lifestyle is the epitome of beat.

                --Sara

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:19:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

stauffer@pacbell.net,.Internet writes:

>Why is it that nothing Nicosia, Maher, or Chaput say or do in this

>matter remind me in any way of anything remotely related to the

>qualities I associate with Jack Kerouac?  How far the apples have fallen

>from the tree.  Reminds me of a nice corporate takeover battle more than

>anything else, or an especially ugly divorce.

 

     kaching, on the money, you are correct sir (carson voice)...

preach it brother, don thy pack and join in the loooooooove

revolution...   makes me sadly wonder what a grumpy old jack would be

like now.... or would he be grumpy? or have rediscovered his soft

lovely dharma tendencies? hmmm...

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:33:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      James again and Van the Man

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James:

 

Thanks for the good post about the benefits of having things planned

out.  It is too bad that Jack lacked such foresight.  On the other hand,

it is good that others did it correctly.

 

I also appreciated the comments and lyrics about Alan Watts/Van

Morrison.  That is one of my all time favorite albums by Van, or

anyone.

 

"There's a dream where the contents are visible,

And the poetic Champions compose,

Will you breath not a word of this secrecy,

Will you still be my sweet special rose?

 

Queen of the Slipstream

 

Rinaldo will fix it if I got the words wrong, I bet.

 

What a great album.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:47:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Geese

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Geese

 

This dark, wet, gray evening

Is perfect for geese.

They rise up from damp fields,

Through mist and rain

As one.

Beginning East,

Then wheeling through North

To West they are black

Against the blotted sun, which is

Gray in the distance.

The row undulates.

They seem quite pleased

With this weather

That causes accidents

And feeds lawyers', doctors'

Ambulance attendents' and salesmens'

Children.

They do not need

Rain treads,

To keep a better look out

Or even to care.

The line rises over trees,

Over the horizon,

And they are gone.

Me, I sit at the light, number 48.

But there are more behind me.

In perfect harmony.

Only when we reach

This horizon,

Some go left, some go right

And some drive straight ahead--

Undulating, in perfect oneness,

Like geese with different ponds.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:16:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      OTR movie update

In-Reply-To:  <msg1073894.thr-36d2968f.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Heard a great rumor about the OTR movie from a friend in LA.  Film is

still in pre-production to be directed by Francis Ford Coppola.  But what

Im told is that the movie will be narrated by Jack Kerouac himself!

Apparently Kerouac made a studio quality recording of an "On the Road"

reading.  Its going to be released by Polygram (I think) in conjunction

with the movie whenever it comes out. So rather than have a third person

doing the narration, the idea is to put Kerouac's own voice on the

soundtrack!

 

I've never heard Kerouac's voice or if he does a good reading, but on the

face of it, it seems like a great idea

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:49:30 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie update

 

Kerouac is a stellar reader!  hope this is true, where'd you get the info

Richard, or is that confidential?

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Richard Wallner

Sent:   Thursday, October 16, 1997 5:16 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        OTR movie update

 

Heard a great rumor about the OTR movie from a friend in LA.  Film is

still in pre-production to be directed by Francis Ford Coppola.  But what

Im told is that the movie will be narrated by Jack Kerouac himself!

Apparently Kerouac made a studio quality recording of an "On the Road"

reading.  Its going to be released by Polygram (I think) in conjunction

with the movie whenever it comes out. So rather than have a third person

doing the narration, the idea is to put Kerouac's own voice on the

soundtrack!

 

I've never heard Kerouac's voice or if he does a good reading, but on the

face of it, it seems like a great idea

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:54:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      carl adkins

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

rinaldo  i have really enjoyed the list.

http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/thebeats.htm

 Is carl adkins a country western singer?

I wish that people on the beat-list would look at your list and email

you any pictures that you might be able to use.  I is interesting to me.

I like that tactile sense of seeing their eyes.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:07:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: OTR movie update

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>I've never heard Kerouac's voice or if he does a good reading, but on

>the

>face of it, it seems like a great idea

 

     Jack reads like an angel.. buy The Jack Kerouac Collection, a set

of three of the cd's jack made with people like Steve Allen, Al Cohn,

Zoot Sims, nice big booklet with it... excellent quality sound...

definitely a must have.  also, for a beautiful reading of McDougal

Street Blues, check out the tribute disc Kerouac Kicks Joy Darkness,

that track is the only one with Kerouac reading, there is an

unbelievable reading of Brooklyn Bridge Blues by Allen, others include

Michael Stipe from REM, Steve Tyler from Aerosmith, Warren Zevon, Matt

Dillon, Hunter Thompson, Bill Burroughs, Patti Smith, really great.

     a side note, check out the last  song on Allen's The Lion for

Real, i was laughing my ass off hearing him sing "fuck me and spank me."

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:09:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: OTR movie update

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:

>Kerouac is a stellar reader!  hope this is true, where'd you get the

>info

>Richard, or is that confidential?

 

   hope it is... i think we can trust someone like Coppola to do it

right...  Scorcesi'd be nice... i think Tarentino would butcher it by

making it too cheaply sensational.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:21:33 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

:

>Tyson Ouellette wrote:

>>    ...  i'm quite sure that gerry

>> phil paul are capable of being civil.

> 

> 

>no i don't think they are, i think if they want to discuss this dead

>hand stuff they should do it off list.

>p

> 

Dear Patricia,        Oct 16, 1997

 

        Quite frankly I am getting a bit ticked off.

        I think I have spoken very civilly since my re-entry on the Beat

List yesterday.  What happened, just as it happened with my last attempt to

enter the Beat-List last April, is that Mr. Sampas has two guards posted at

the doors to the Beat List.  And as soon as Nicosia appears, they punch me

out every which way.  So then I appear with blood on my head, and people

like you say, "Oh look, there's that bloody fighter Nicosia again."  But all

Nicosia was doing was walking thru the door.

        Please reread my posts since yesterday.  I suppose the closest you

could say I came to being uncivil was referring to Paul Maher's "Libel

Quarterly."  But this was after he had printed an outrageous claim that I

have "the touch of death"--which is what, a veiled suggestion that I killed

someone?  What did I say that deserved that?  All I did was call for John

Sampas to cooperate with me, instead of fighting me in court, so that we can

have the Kerouac archive properly cared for in a library.  Then I have Mr.

Chaput, the other guard at the door, claiming everything I say is "hogwash"

and "bullshit" and "crap"!  I would say THAT is uncivil, especially when I

was speaking the absolute truth about our phone conversation, as I have

recently demonstrated.

          I suppose Bill Gargan could simply ban the topic of the Kerouac

Estate from the Beat-List, but then these fellas who are posted to keep me

out will have their final victory.  Because while I've been off the list,

they've been going great guns promoting John Sampas.  Bentz Kirby emailed me

the post in which Maher promised everyone (for the nth time) that Mr. Sampas

is truly going to put the archive into a library.  So if they ban the topic,

I'll be silenced, and Maher will go on "just being a journalist," as he

says, and promoting John Sampas from here to Timbuktu.  Now that's not fair

either.

        Perhaps you think there is some other, better alternative.  Please

tell me if you have one.  But if you're going to say I've been uncivil, then

please, show me the examples of my uncivil discourse.

        Respectfully, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:34:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      What Phil Chaput really Said about the Sampases

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>>Are you for real. I never talked to you about anything except what was

>going on with the archive at U-Mass Lowell because I was concerned about

>it. I wanted to hear both sides of the story. You did 99% of the talking.

>How could you possibly come up with something like this? You are a very

>desperate man to resort to the likes of this. All I can say folks is WOW!

>WOW! WOW! what hogwash. I don't need notes. I know exactly what I said to

>you and I never ever said anything like that. So again you are bull

>shitting the folks on the beat-l ...

 

October 16, 1997

 

Dear Phil,      Oct 16, 1997

 

        What you say to me is highly insulting.  Frankly, I am tired of

being called a liar by you.  But I will try to look at you in the best

light, and say maybe you just don't remember what you said--even though this

conversation took place only a year and a half ago.  So I am going to print

the notes to our phone conversation (which was almost an hour long, the

phone records will show) just as I typed them up right afterward.  I keep

note pads by all my phones, and it is my practice during an important call

to take detailed notes, then to type them up immediately afterward, while

the memories are still fresh and I can still read my own fast scribbles.  I

will swear in any court of law that this is exactly what I heard you say.  I

am a practicing Christian and I do not take swearing lightly.  Moreover, I

bet there are members of the Kerouac Committee who were there the day you

spoke of, who will remember the incident concerning Jim Sampas just as you

recalled it to me.  I believe, at the least, that you owe me an apology:

        P.S.  The only changes I have made from the original transcription

of my notes is to add a few explanations [in brackets, like this] to make

things clearer to the "general reader":

        To paraphrase my esteemed colleague Paul Maher: "I'm a journalist, I

just report what I hear."

 

                Notes from Conversation with Phil Chaput

                April 23, 1996

                Duration of call: approximately 45 minutes

 

 

Phil called, said he had been over to the MEMORY BABE Archive at the Mogan

Center [U Mass Lowell], and that Martha Mayo [the librarian] had told him

the whole archive is closed -- "she said I could only see my father's stuff"

--says he isn't writing a book, he's just curious, he loves Kerouac--

 

I explained to him that after Jim Jones [a scholar from Missouri] had been

turned away [in June 1995] Martha Mayo had told me it was just a mistake,

she had only meant to prevent xeroxing of Kerouac's letters.  Told him I

didn't find out that the archive was still really closed till a scholar

named Shari Krishnan was turned away in March [1996].  Told him Lowell Sun

is afraid to do a story about how the archive is closed.  Told him I'm sick

over the whole thing.

 

Told him how the tapes are deteriorating, that they are cheap cassette

tapes.  Told him that Martha Mayo refuses to dub the tapes.  Phil agreed

that it would be easy for the university to dub the tapes.  He says, "They

have the facilities.  For Chrissakes, my buddy Jimmy Dunleavy is recording a

CD at the university right now."

 

Told him that 100 of the people I interviewed are now dead, incuding major

writers.  [This was even before Ginsberg and Burroughs died, of course.]

Phil said he told Martha, "What about the people who are dead?  How the hell

are you going to get permission from them?" "What if the person who died had

five brothers, do you have to go to all of them?"

 

Phil said he would talk to Dave Perry at the LOWELL SUN, to try to get him

to do a story.  I told him I already sent Perry stuff, including Shari

Krishnan's protests that she's not being allowed to use the archive, that

she can't finish her thesis.  Phil says, "That's bullshit!"  He says he'll

see what he can find out.

 

He says Martha Mayo blamed me for not getting releases, said people can sue

her if she lets people use the archive.  I explained to him copyright law,

fair use, etc.  I explained to him that Sampas [who had objected to Mayo

about the archive being open to the public] does not have the right to keep

people from reading or listening to Jack Kerouac materials.

 

Phil says, "Let's say as a scholar I want Lew Welch's interview, and I get a

transcription of it, and then I in turn use it in a book, can they be sued?

Maybe that's what they're worried about."  I explained to him no, they

couldn't sue the library, because the library is just doing its function as

a library, making material available.  I told him it's the same thing as if

he took ON THE ROAD out of a library, and then he printed his own copy of ON

THE ROAD without Sampas's permission--Sampas couldn't sue the library for

letting him see the book.

 

I told Phil that Sampas had actually called Shari Krishnan in Michigan,

telling her which letters and tapes in my collection he might give her

permission to see!  Told him how Sampas claimed to control this material.  I

said I couldn't understand why the library was so intimidated by him.

 

Phil says I gave him "a whole new read on it."  Said he "doesn't want to get

involved," "doesn't want to get on anybody's side," because he knows John

[Sampas], Tony [Sampas], and also knows me.  Said he had been starting to

take their side, but now that he hears my side, "it's like a whole new world

here."

 

Phil says the MEMORY BABE archive is "an absolute, amazing treasure chest of

information" on Kerouac.  I told him how the LOWELL SUN is saying I may have

some monetary motive [in trying to open the archive again].  I told him I

get no money if somebody uses my archive when they write an article or a

book.  Told him that my interest is purely scholarly.

 

Phil says Mayo claims "Those tapes are fragile, we can't have everybody

looking at them."  He says, "Well shit, that's their friggin problem!"  I

agreed--I said, "Then why the hell don't they copy them?"  Phil says, you

can copy them, and then you can take the copy and copy that 100 times!  He

also says, "To this day they haven't transcribed them yet!"  Phil says he

went to school with the secretary there, says Martha Mayo wasn't there the

first time he went down there, the secretary said, "You're Phil Chaput, you

went to Saint Joe's didn't ya?"  He told her he wanted his father's

transcripts.  They went thru the list, and only 2-3 of his father's tapes

have been transcribed--most of them haven't been.  Phil told her he couldn't

spend five or six hours in the library listening to his father's tapes.  The

secretary told him she'll try to transcribe his father's tapes as soon as

she can get to it.

 

But Phil wisely says she shouldn't be transcribing from the original tapes,

because that will only wear them out faster.  I agreed with him that they

should copy the tapes before they transcribe them.

 

I told him I'm going to file a breach of contract against the University of

Massachusetts, because part of my agreement with the university was that the

collection would be made available to the public [this lawsuit is still in

the works].  I told him that if the case goes to trial, I hoped he would be

a witness for me. He said, "Oh definitely!"

 

We talked about Jan's desire to move her father Jack's body to Nashua.  He

said he originally felt, "That's bullshit, he shouldn't be moved."  But then

said he read in the LOWELL SUN that Stella Sampas also wanted Jack buried in

Nashua.

 

I told him that the reason John Sampas wants the archive closed is because

of the negative things on tape about his family.  I reminded Phil that his

own father had talked to me about the fact that Memere and Stella didn't get

along.  I said now they're trying to say Stella and Memere loved each other,

that's why Memere left her everything.  Phil says, "Well that we know is

bullshit."  Phil says, "We know that Jack himself wasn't too thrilled with

Stella every minute."  He says he hangs around with Billy Koumantzelis and

so "I know exactly what Jack said about Stella."  I told him there's also

stuff on those tapes about Jack planning to divorce Stella when he died.  He

says, "Yeah, I know that!"

 

I told him Bancroft Library in Berkeley would like the MEMORY BABE archive,

that they would pay Lowell to get it, and that they would make all the

materials available, but the University of Lowell won't cooperate.  Phil was

surprised to hear I don't have copies of most of the things in the archive.

He says, "Oh my God, you must be going out of your mind!"

 

We talked about my Vietnam book--I told him it's up to 1,350 pages.

 

I told him I thought Mayo was intimidated.  He says, "I could see she's

scared."  But she's "acting like it's not John," she's blaming it on

"someone from Connecticut."  Says Mayo wouldn't give him the name of the

person.  I told him it was Sampas who called the woman in Michigan [Shari

Krishnan], not "someone from Connecticut."

 

I asked him to support me in getting this into the news--the fact that all

these precious research materials, especially the 300 interviews, are being

buried.  He says, "There's not a question that your book [MEMORY BABE] is

the most detailed of anybody's."  He says he's "tried to stay out of

it"--but he may talk to Dave Perry or post something on the internet.  I

told him I'm not asking him to get involved in Jan's lawsuit, I just want

help in saving the research materials.  He says, "I'm trying to stay

neutral, but this is serious stuff."

 

He says he knows Ellis Amburn real well [the guy Sampas authorized to write

"the definitive Jack Kerouac biography" prior to Sampas's recent deal with

Douglas Brinkley], that he took Amburn all over Lowell, introduced him to

Billy, etc.  He said we should send Amburn to the MEMORY BABE archive and

see if they turn him away.  I said since Amburn's working with Sampas, they

would probably let him in, but it would still be closed to everyone else--so

that wouldn't prove anything.

 

He agreed that when I interviewed people, like his dad, the people knew they

were being tape-recorded, and they knew the stuff they were saying was going

into my book.

 

Phil says, "I'm not on anybody's side, but I know John.  John's been over here."

He says he knew John before he got the Kerouac stuff, and knew Tony [Sampas]

too.  "But regardless of who's fighting who, this is serious stuff."  Said

he hadn't known what was really going on.  Says he's going to talk to his

buddy Jimmy Dunleavy at the Lowell Sun, and Dunleavy knows Dave Perry.

Phil's already talked to Perry but will ask Dunleavy's help to talk to him

some more.

 

Phil suggested bringing up the issue to the Lowell Kerouac Committee, which

he now belongs to.  I said he wouldn't get anywhere, because Sampas is

behind it.  Phil claims there are people on the committee who can't stand

Sampas.  So I said, then why is it every year if Jan Kerouac comes to

Lowell, they won't even mention it at their events?  I also told him how

John Sampas has been cutting down Jan's royalties, even though she's getting

sicker and sicker.  He agreed that she should be treated better.

 

I told him that Jan has gotten no money out of all the Kerouac materials

John Sampas has sold.  I told him John may still be selling things.  He told

me that two Kerouac paintings went up for sale at Skinner's in Boston 3

months ago.  He says I can get a catalogue from Skinner's.  He says the

paintings sold for $3-4,000 each.  He says he also went to the Antiquarian

Book Fair about a year ago and saw a paperback inscribed from Jack to Stella

for sale.  They wanted $5,000 for it.

 

He thanked me again for the article I wrote about his father in MOODY STREET

IRREGULARS.  We talked about Edie [Parker Kerouac, Jack's first wife] being

dead now too.  He says he has a great picture of her that he took at the

dedication [of the Kerouac Memorial].

 

I talked about my vision of scholars coming to Lowell to use my archive, and

how that's now impossible, and that I've got to move the MEMORY BABE archive

somewhere else.  He says, "They probably don't want to let it out of Lowell,

but if they're not gonna take care of it, then they better goddamn do

something."

 

I said I didn't understand how John Sampas could have so much power over

them.  Phil said: "Well you know what it is with Mark Hemenway?  Mark

Hemenway writes THE DHARMA BEAT, and John [Sampas] feeds him original photos

and articles.  If he doesn't kiss his goddamn ass, you think he's ever gonna

get any stuff?"

 

He told a story about Jim Sampas, "Mike's kid," who is always hanging around

with John [Sampas, his uncle].  He says Jim is "doing a CD" of Kerouac,

probably Kerouac songs.  Jim said he wanted to do a presentation of it at

the next Lowell Celebrates Kerouac, and all the committee members had to

vote on his request.  So as a gag Phil told the committee, "I don't think we

should let him."  He laughs: "You should've seen the looks I got!"  He says

he "just wanted to get them going," so he kept saying, "I don't think we

should do it."  When they finally understood that he was joking, someone

said angrily, "Oho!  Real fuckin' funny!"

 

                                                        END OF CONVERSATION

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:52:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: What Phil Chaput really Said about the Sampases

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> 

> October 16, 1997

> 

> Dear Phil,      Oct 16, 1997

> 

>         What you say to me is highly insulting.  Frankly, I am tired of

> being called a liar by you.  But I will try to look at you in the best

> light, and say maybe you just don't remember what you said--even though this

> conversation took place only a year and a half ago.  So I am going to print

> the notes to our phone conversation (which was almost an hour long, the

> phone records will show) just as I typed them up right afterward.  I keep

> note pads by all my phones, and it is my practice during an important call

> to take detailed notes, then to type them up immediately afterward, while

> the memories are still fresh and I can still read my own fast scribbles.

 

<snip>

 

When they finally understood that he was joking, someone

> said angrily, "Oho!  Real fuckin' funny!"

> 

>                                                         END OF CONVERSATION

 

rotflmao

 

bet folks are lining up at the phonebooths to call you now!!!

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:01:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

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I have been thinking about my post all day.  I almost posted on it

several times, so i am so glad you wrote.  It was an unfair post.  I was

very interested in your original post. Found it heartening and

enlightening on a subject i was interested in.  The when the attack came

in i was sickened becaused, i thought i knew, that they would wound you

and distract from the message.  I said that i didn't think that the

three of you could be civil was not that you wouldn't be civil but that

i suspected that the communications would not be civil.  I sat here

kicking myself for how i said it.  It was so good to have you  post here

and i should have expressed that. You are a real writer and scholar and

have a great heart. It is an honor for me to get to know you even a

little from the list.  It is both a formal and informal form of

communication that excites me. My post aren't academic and often i am

off beat, but for me to leave the impression that you should not

communicate to the list is not the meaning in my heart.  I will say

ignore the ignoble and pardon me for i don't mean to be persumptive.

patricia

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> 

> :

> >Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> >>    ...  i'm quite sure that gerry

> >> phil paul are capable of being civil.

> >

> >

> >no i don't think they are, i think if they want to discuss this dead

> >hand stuff they should do it off list.

> >p

> >

> Dear Patricia,        Oct 16, 1997

> 

>         Quite frankly I am getting a bit ticked off.

>         I think I have spoken very civilly since my re-entry on the Beat

> List yesterday.  What happened, just as it happened with my last attempt to

> enter the Beat-List last April, is that Mr. Sampas has two guards posted at

> the doors to the Beat List.  And as soon as Nicosia appears, they punch me

> out every which way.  So then I appear with blood on my head, and people

> like you say, "Oh look, there's that bloody fighter Nicosia again."  But all

> Nicosia was doing was walking thru the door.

>         Please reread my posts since yesterday.  I suppose the closest you

> could say I came to being uncivil was referring to Paul Maher's "Libel

> Quarterly."  But this was after he had printed an outrageous claim that I

> have "the touch of death"--which is what, a veiled suggestion that I killed

> someone?  What did I say that deserved that?  All I did was call for John

> Sampas to cooperate with me, instead of fighting me in court, so that we can

> have the Kerouac archive properly cared for in a library.  Then I have Mr.

> Chaput, the other guard at the door, claiming everything I say is "hogwash"

> and "bullshit" and "crap"!  I would say THAT is uncivil, especially when I

> was speaking the absolute truth about our phone conversation, as I have

> recently demonstrated.

>           I suppose Bill Gargan could simply ban the topic of the Kerouac

> Estate from the Beat-List, but then these fellas who are posted to keep me

> out will have their final victory.  Because while I've been off the list,

> they've been going great guns promoting John Sampas.  Bentz Kirby emailed me

> the post in which Maher promised everyone (for the nth time) that Mr. Sampas

> is truly going to put the archive into a library.  So if they ban the topic,

> I'll be silenced, and Maher will go on "just being a journalist," as he

> says, and promoting John Sampas from here to Timbuktu.  Now that's not fair

> either.

>         Perhaps you think there is some other, better alternative.  Please

> tell me if you have one.  But if you're going to say I've been uncivil, then

> please, show me the examples of my uncivil discourse.

>         Respectfully, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:12:18 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: What Phil Chaput really Said about the Sampases

In-Reply-To:  <199710162334.QAA27242@norway.it.earthlink.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Gerry you are a master with the pen to create that from our phone

conversation. Very good! Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:24:38 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: What Phil Chaput really Said about the Sampases

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:12 PM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Gerry you are a master with the pen to create that from our phone

>conversation. Very good! Phil

> 

Phil,     Oct 16, 1997

        If you disown that conversation, then you, sir, are the liar.  Your

memory is not that poor.  And I will gladly sit down side by side with you

in Lowell, with lie detectors fastened to our respective wrists, to see

which one of us is "creating" and which one telling the truth.

        Yours sincerely, Gerald Nicosia.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:32:06 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: What Phil Chaput really Said about the Sampases

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971016231218.006a1008@pop.tiac.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Phil Chaput wrote:

 

> Gerry you are a master with the pen to create that from our phone

> conversation. Very good! Phil

 

Could we have an end, please? Or at least some more amusing insults and

put-downs?

 

Aristotle said it. "Irony is more befitting the self-realized man than

buffoonery. The ironic man takes action to amuse himself; the buffoon acts

to amuse others."

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:47:50 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: let's get our facts straight

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:30 PM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>i love this...  (John J. Dorfner)

> 

Hi, John,    Oct 16, 1997

 

        Glad this all keeps you amused.  I must admit, sometimes it seems to

me too like I've followed Alice thru the Looking Glass.  I'm labelled by the

man who cut off Jan Kerouac's foreign royalties as having "the touch of

death," when I was the person carrying boxes of dialysis fluids, bandages,

and salves to her house every day.  However, I didn't get invited to the

church, so I couldn't proclaim, "Lord, hear my prayer!"  And a young man of

43 or so totally forgets a conversation he had only a year and a half ago,

while even Ronald Reagan with Alzheimer's did better than that.  Yet when I

remind him of the conversation, I become a liar.  You've got a good head on

your shoulders, Johnny.  Can you figure this thing out?  Or is it too absurd

to try?

        Yours for the duration (as my vet friends say),

        Gerry

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:08:50 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: What Phil Chaput really Said about the Sampases

 

OK that's IT!!!!  take it OFF the list guys!!!  there is absolutely no reason

to play this out here.  Gerry's original post was completely non-incendiary.

but almost everything since then has caused all 3 of you to regress to

somewhere between the ages of 3 to 5.  sadly, i find myself losing respect for

you as a result.

 

i will not state my opinion on the subject here - it's not well informed

enough anyway - although i have a strong gut reaction to what rings true.

 

right now i am so revolted by this nonsense i can't even express it.  the

reason the courts have to be involved in this whole mess is due to human

selfishness and irrationality.  hardly reflective of anything Kerouac stood

for.

 

please, please, let's honor Jack by trying to show respect for him, his work

and each other.  that is the ONLY way any of this can be solved out of court.

if someone persists in irrationality, then a judge will decide what's right

and it's out of your hands, anyway.

 

a lover of peace and kindness,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Phil Chaput

Sent:   Thursday, October 16, 1997 8:12 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: What Phil Chaput really Said about the Sampases

 

Gerry you are a master with the pen to create that from our phone

conversation. Very good! Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:58:46 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: let's get our facts straight

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Gerry,

 

Were you not at one point asked in letters by Jan not to represent

yourself as her spokesperson?

 

JS

 

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

 

  I'm labelled by the

> man who cut off Jan Kerouac's foreign royalties as having "the touch of

> death," when I was the person carrying boxes of dialysis fluids, bandages,

> and salves to her house every day.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:46:11 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie update

 

I'll go out on a limb and make a prediction.  If this movie is ever made, I

think it will be GREAT!!

 

I'm an optimist by nature.  Any movie will have faults.  But this rumor that

ol Jack himself will narrate is a great omen.  Just do it, and do it well,

why not try?

 

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:04:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: women poets

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> Sherri wrote:

 

> well, kids,  i think it's about time we read some poetry together.  how

> bout

> di Prima - would be good to discuss some Beat women's contributions for

> a

> change.

> any takers?

 

I would love to discuss Di Prima.  Can anyone post any of her poems to

the list?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:30:11 +0000

Reply-To:     jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

Comments: cc: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

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I support the continued, open discussion of the controversy surrounding

the Kerouac estate. I object to any policing or restriction of postings

that deal with Beat Generation topics.

 

The renewed discussion of the estate battle is important and interesting

to me as a reader and writer. It adds value to the list. I think anyone

genuinely interested in the Beats would feel the same way.

 

It would be unfortunate if this forum were not allowed to continue in a

TOTALLY OPEN FASHION.

 

-John Hasbrouck

--

 

 

*** JOHN HASBROUCK

*** http://www.tezcat.com/~jhasbro

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:36:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Howl part one "Folding and Unfolding"

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Having contemplated the point of view of the "I saw" that begins Howl

for Carl Solomon far longer than perhaps is sane (:)), I began to scan

the entire section of Part One this morning looking over and back and up

and down and through the sometimes endless stream of "who"'s.  A folding

of sorts came to me that I'll point out here and then think out loud a

bit about what happens after this fold is made and then unfolded.

 

p.9

"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving

hysterical naked . . ."

 

p.16

"to recreate the syntax and measure of poor human prose and stand before

you speechless and intelligent and shaking with shame, rejected yet

confessing out the soul to conform to the rhythm of thought in his naked

and endless head ..."

 

So it seems to me that these beginnings and endings of Part One of Howl

for Carl Solomon so much say the same thing from different angles from

the point of view of the same "I" having begun trying to place the

hysterical and nakedness of the maddened generation into words and then

at the second snipped portion the same "I" looking back at what has been

done and commenting on the notion of recreation.

 

And so, what lies between these folds when unfolded?  It seems to me on

this Friday morning that each segment can be seen separately between

these two folded phrases.  Each an attempt to capture to recreate the

syntax and measure of the human experience of the hysterical and naked

maddenedness of the generation's best minds.

 

And it seems that each of the segments tells mythic autobiography in

unbelievably condensed form.  I am not nearly familiar enough with the

details of the Beat Generation history to fill in the paint by number

created here.  It seems obvious that the section of the asteriked mother

when placed between these two folds gives birth to Kaddish.

 

Novels, poems, biographies -- written and unwritten -- reside in the

condensations Ginsberg places in each of the recreated syntax and

rhythms of the experiences of his generation within the remainder of the

segments as contrasted within the folds.  (And it seems that the

soundtrack for the recreation is probably saxaphone cries <grin>)....

 

So, to save me years of reading, I'd be interested in other folks on the

list who are lovers of the experiences of the Beat Generation to help

fill in the stories condensed in each segment of the folds.  It seems

that such a process is one of the few methods of appreciating exactly

the depth that Howl for Carl Solomon presents as a poetic autobiography

of a generation.  For in retrospect of this folding and unfolding, it

seems to me, that the "I" in the beginning of Howl for Carl Solomon

re-presents the Beat Generation itself.

 

thanks for reading,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:02:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      estate battle

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

All of you people who are "sharing" the estate battle with all of us on the list

are goddam boring. Why don't you just scream at each other and allow the rest of

us to enjoy the beatific splendor of Beat Generation and culture.  Isn't that

what the BEAT-L. thing was supposed to be all about? Donald

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:14:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sudama Adam Rice <sudama@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: women poets - DiPrima poem

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THE PRACTICE OF MAGICAL EVOCATION

Diane DiPrima

 

The female is fertile, and discipline

(contra naturam) only

          confuses her

               =8BGary Snyder

 

I am a woman and my poems

are a woman=B9s:   easy to say

this.   the female is ductile

and

     (stroke after stroke)

built for masochistic

calm.     The deadened nerve

is part of it:

awakened sex, dead retina

fish eyes;     at hair=B9s root

minimal feeling

 

and pelvic architecture functional

assailed inside & out

(bring forth) the cunt gets wide

and relatively sloppy

bring forth men children only

          female

          is

          ductile

 

woman, a veil thru which the fingering Will

twice torn

twice torn

     inside & out

the flow

what rhythm add to stillness

what applause?

 

 

--

Adam

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:14:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>          I suppose Bill Gargan could simply ban the topic of the

>Kerouac

>Estate from the Beat-List, but then these fellas who are posted to keep

>me

>out will have their final victory.  Because while I've been off the

>list,

 

     which raises a point that's been bothering me.  why is it that on

every single list I've ever been on, including here, there's always a

handful of people that think every subject discussed on that list

should be interesting to them or not be posted.  those of you who

continue to whine about this topic being here at all are missing the

point, this list is for beat-related matter, of which this topic surely

is, not beat-related matter that you happen to find interesting.  this

list does not exist to please everyone subscribing to it and givem that

warm fuzzy feeling like everything's ok, there's gonna be negative

stuff, and if you can't handle it being around then you're lacking

simple coping skills... no one's forcing you to read it, if you see

it's something you don't want to read then delete it and move to the

next message, period.  don't scream at other people because their

conversation doesn't inclue you because you happen to hate the topic;

if a topic had to be approved by the entire list before we could

discuss it we wouoldn't get a damn thing done.  there's no reason why a

handful of people cannot discuss something of interest to them here, if

there is enough interest in that subject, which there obviously is

here.

     when you buy a magazine do you pull a fit because there happens to

be an article in it that doesn't interest you.  do you write that

magazine and demand that they cater to your interests? no, course not.

same thing here.  lighten up and roll with the punches already.

     excuse the commentary, just felt it needed to be said.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:24:06 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

 

DISCUSSION and DEBATE are wonderful. childish, fruitless name-calling and

accusations are not, and hinder anything constructive from resulting.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:28:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>I support the continued, open discussion of the controversy surrounding

>the Kerouac estate. I object to any policing or restriction of postings

>that deal with Beat Generation topics.

> 

>The renewed discussion of the estate battle is important and interesting

>to me as a reader and writer. It adds value to the list. I think anyone

>genuinely interested in the Beats would feel the same way.

> 

>It would be unfortunate if this forum were not allowed to continue in a

>TOTALLY OPEN FASHION.

> 

>-John Hasbrouck

 

I wholeheartedly agree! The list can be moderated by each subscriber by

simply not reading posts about the estate differences. No need to restrict

in any other way. Ideally it would be great if there was no controversy

relating to the estate, but it is what it is and it is relevant. It's all

part of the flow. Hell, Jack and Allen had difficult times with each other

over the years and same with Jack and Neal and Neal and Allen and. . . .

Life isn't all peace, love and bliss.

 

Michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:53:18 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: estate battle

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:02 AM 10/17/97 -0500, you wrote:

>All of you people who are "sharing" the estate battle with all of us on the

list

>are goddam boring. Why don't you just scream at each other and allow the

rest of

>us to enjoy the beatific splendor of Beat Generation and culture.  Isn't that

>what the BEAT-L. thing was supposed to be all about? Donald

> 

 

I agree...we should talk more about John Denver being Beat or the perils of

hitchhiking...that is of infinite more interest! There's nothing more

intellectually stimulating wondering about the status of a film being made

of On the Road and ad infinitum......Paul.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:59:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 03:24 PM 10/17/97 UT, you wrote:

>DISCUSSION and DEBATE are wonderful. childish, fruitless name-calling and

>accusations are not, and hinder anything constructive from resulting.

> 

>ciao,

>sherri

> 

 

 When did I ever name call? What was it that was childish? Or an accusation

from me? When? I didn't know I was amidst such a genuine audience of

maturity. . . there is to be no fun? Nothing interesting? I think we should

all take your example. Yes...that is what I will do. I will be less of a

child and more of a "mature" "adult" in order to be just like you. Please,

hand me a razor blade and a warm bath, surely such actions are more

desirable than being subjugated to your thought process.   With tongue

planted firmply in cheek, Paul of TKQ. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:36:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> 

>      when you buy a magazine do you pull a fit because there happens to

> be an article in it that doesn't interest you.  do you write that

> magazine and demand that they cater to your interests? no, course not.

> 

would someone be so kind as to give me the directions for changing my

subscription to this "magazine" to a digest format until this year's

verse of the same story ends.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:51:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <v01530501630b80b35865@[204.181.15.86]>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I believe Allen Ginsberg supported the Sampas family in this debate, for

what thats worth.

 

Ive read that Jan Kerouac accused Allen of selling out, but given the

amount of time Ginsberg put in over the years promoting Kerouac's work

and career, I would respect his opinion on this.

 

Then again, Ginsberg did sell his own papers to Stanford for a cool

million bucks, so who knows.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:50:24 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Estate

 

As list moderator, I would never try to censor debate on any legitimate

Beat topic.  I've even allowed great leeway on topics that were off the

list.  However, I have asked all listmembers to abide by certain

guidelines in terms of what I've called "civil discourse."  Perhaps I

should publish this guidelines again for the  benefit of new

subscribers.  Listmembers should not insult one another, call each other

names, or accuse each other of crimes.  Listmembers should not violate

copyright law or libel one another.   In the last round of the estate

battle, the list and the university that houses Beat-l was threatened

with legal action.  I have neither the time nor the inclination to deal

with such matters.  I say again it's obvious that several list members

seem to find it difficult to discuss the estate battle in a rational,

unemotional manner.   Given that, I think it is best to take such

discussion of the list.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:53:59 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      one small voice - a plea

In-Reply-To:  <199710170021.RAA23535@norway.it.earthlink.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

beat-l participants.

sigh.

i have great respect for beat-L and i think that it can be a very valuable

forum for discussion and general community conversation (quite a while

back i described beat-L as a big room/party with conversations coming and

going & people running from one to another cheerly discussing, etc). so

often, it seems, when the matter of the kerouac estate arises, the tone

around these parts becomes more and more confrontational and negative.

        this really disappoints me.

beat literature, in my opinion, needs more and more people to recognize it

& discuss it is an intelligent and civil manner in order for it to gather

the respect that it deserves (for instance i was recently reading _big sky

mind_ and was excited by the comparison of beat lit. to the

trancendentalists, can anyone enlighten me further on emerson, thoreau and

co...?).

        bickering and fighting (insulting, conversation degeneration to

insults, you did it firsts, etc) only divide and create factions within

this forum.

        a forum like beat-L benefits from having published and recognized

authors and poets (of such books as "memory babe", "kerouac at rocky

mount", "articulata", "kerouac quarterly", "kerouac connection", "beat

scene", "kerouac the bootleg era", "second beat", "last of the moccasins"

- all of these have been discussed or appeared in beat-L at some point...)

as well as people who knew or were associated with the beats in a more

primary way (leon, charles plymell) or just general afficianados and

excited fans (antoine and his knowledge of jazz comes to mind), as well

as students and fans of beat literature. THIS IS A VERY EXCITING PLACE!

        i hope that all these people (and all the other who i havent

mentioned) feel comfortable enough to read and aprticipate in group

dicussions without the threat of insult or injury (take that as you wish).

beat-L is a very valuable forum and i think that only WE can keep it that

way - an open place for intelligent discussion and appreciation - not a

place for bickering, in-fighting or insult.

        please, im not limiting what anyone says here - dont get me wrong,

please - i just hope that we can remember that we are adults and lets try

to keep things civil, and when you sense that the discussion is moving

into a more personal nature, or into a style that might be best discussed

in private - please do so.

        this is our community to make or break.

        lets make it together please.

 

        just one small voice

        yrs

        derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:23:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

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Richard Wallner wrote:

> 

> I believe Allen Ginsberg supported the Sampas family in this debate, for what

 thats worth.

 

... so who knows.RJW

 

 Oh speaking of references, where did you get this knowledge or "did you

figure it out by yourself because i recall he refused to  take sides. Is

it from his refusal to take sides in this issue that makes you say

this.  It is this kind of nonsense that establishes facts for many.

 

my breasts

seem to be swelling,

pressing out of my blouse

oh god, they are falling out

smothering the poor innocent lamb.

 

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:06:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

> 

>my penis

>seem to be swelling,

>pressing out of my pants

>oh god, it is falling out

>smothering the "wanton ambling nymph".

> 

>paul

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:16:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <3447911D.6EA8@sunflower.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Richard Wallner wrote:

> >

> > I believe Allen Ginsberg supported the Sampas family in this debate, for

 what

>  thats worth.

> 

>  Oh speaking of references, where did you get this knowledge or "did you

> figure it out by yourself because i recall he refused to  take sides.

 

He had Jan thrown out of the NYU conference (or at least sat there and

allowed it to happen), if that says anything.

 

 

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:11:39 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Standing Stone a Symphony by Paul McCartney.

In-Reply-To:  <3441B9BB.45ED@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The cover(photo by Linda McCartney) of the disk

(and the cover of the program) offers an image of

a gigantic monolith = standing stone. Paul McCartney

says that Allen Ginsberg liked the title.

 

saluti da

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:10:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Derek,

 

_Big Sky Mind_ has been sitting beside my bed for a couple of days now.  I

think of Thoreau to be a precursor to the Alan Watts-"Beat Zen" spirit,

though Thoreau associated more with the "Hindoo" faith.  I found this

introductory essay to be very enlightening.  What all did you get out of

it, the rest of the texts?

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:34:09 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

Michael,

 

there's a huge difference between having someone thrown out and letting it

happen.  which was it?  and where does one come by such information?  just

curious...

 

ciao, sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:38:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> 

> >

> >my penis

> >seem to be swelling,

> >pressing out of my pants

> >oh god, it is falling out

> >smothering the "wanton ambling nymph".

> >

> >paul

> >

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

i laughed so hard.

thanks

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:53:02 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:50 AM 10/17/97 EDT, Bill Gargan wrote:  I say again it's obvious that

several list members

>seem to find it difficult to discuss the estate battle in a rational,

>unemotional manner.   Given that, I think it is best to take such

>discussion of the list.

> 

> 

                   Oct 17, 1997

Bill,

        I think you are missing the forest for the trees.  What happened

here is that the same two individuals as last time, Maher and Chaput, have

used the same tactics they used last time, outrageous, inflammatory

language, to verbally mug me the instant I appear.  Two days ago I attempted

to say something in a calm, rational vein about my goals and motivations for

carrying on Jan Kerouac's estate fight.  What happens then?  Paul Maher,

supposedly in his role of "neutral journalist," prints an outrageous claim

by John Sampas that I am a murderer!  Not only such a claim, but in the most

sensational fashion, using phrases like "touch of death" that no respectable

journalist would use even in regard to O.J. Simpson.  Anybody who knows

anything about journalism--and I taught it at the University of

Illinois--knows that a journalist is INDEED HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HE

PRINTS.  If Mr. Maher, as a responsible journalist, wished to report that

Mr. Sampas had accused me of being a murderer, then at the very least he

needed to indicate what the basis for that charge was. No professional

journalist in the world simply prints his source's phone number and says,

"Call him!"  Even on a metaphorical level, the charge is abusive and has no

rational basis.  Is my touch on Kerouac materials supposed to be murderous?

Then how did that murderous touch produce MEMORY BABE, an award-winning

biography that was called by the WASHINGTON POST only last month "the best

of the Kerouac biographies" (BOOK WORLD, August 31, 1997)?

        By the same token, if Mr. Chaput disputed my memory of our recent

phone conversation, he could have said, "That's not how I remember our

talk"--and then he could have privately asked me to show him my notes to

that conversation.  Instead he announces to the Beat-List, in his own

inflammatory language, that I am a "desperate man" producing only "bullshit"

"hogwash" and "crap."

        Bill, the pattern is not that the topic of the Kerouac Estate

automatically makes everybody talk crazy and abusive.  In fact, there have

been many serious, thoughtful, informative posts here about it.  Just today

there were posts from John Hasbrouck and Michael Czarnecki, free from venom,

that indicated a serious interest in discussing this subject.  The fact is

that the topic immediately provokes frothing, inflammatory language from

only two individuals: Paul Maher, Jr. and Phil Chaput.  Both of those

gentlemen, by their own admission, are part of John Sampas's inner circle.

Which leads me to believe there is a very definite, ulterior motive behind

their vicious attacks on me.  I do not believe they just see stars and hear

explosions as soon as "Kerouac estate" is spoken.  I believe there is an

agenda behind their immoderate attacks on me, and I believe at least part of

that agenda is to get me off the Beat List so that I cannot discuss the

Kerouac Estate.  Once I am gone, they will go ahead and sing the virtues of

John Sampas and their Kerouac Committee just as they always have

        Back in the late 1960's, under the reign of King Richard the

Milhous, we saw the use of such "dirty tricks" by the President of the

United States, to discredit his opponents.  Nixon himself was finally

censured for such abusive behavior.  I think instead of banning the topic of

the Kerouac Estate, you should consider banning abusive language,

inflammatory and baseless accusations ("touch of death"), and, if need be,

the two individuals who continue turning this topic into a circus of dirty

tricks.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:00:20 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Re: estate battle & Paul A. Maher Jr.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>At 10:02 AM 10/17/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>All of you people who are "sharing" the estate battle with all of us on the

>list

>>are goddam boring. Why don't you just scream at each other and allow the

>rest of

>>us to enjoy the beatific splendor of Beat Generation and culture.  Isn't that

>>what the BEAT-L. thing was supposed to be all about? Donald

>> 

> 

>I agree...we should talk more about John Denver being Beat or the perils of

>hitchhiking...that is of infinite more interest! There's nothing more

>intellectually stimulating wondering about the status of a film being made

>of On the Road and ad infinitum......Paul.

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

 

   While I do not share Donald's vehemence regarding this thread, I find it

odd that Mr. Maher, who initially claimed to be performing a journalistic

duty by sharing a quote (my apologies for paraphrasing), now resorts to such

sarcasm.  Perhaps he's just having a bad day but it makes me wonder if his

only reason for subscribing to this list is for self-promotion.  And when I

think of all the messages containing nothing but URL's and a "Check out the

new..." signed by Paul A. Maher Jr. of The Kerouac Quarterly, I'm quite sure

that I wonder without good reason.

 

James Marshall

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:43:08 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

Derek & Jon,

 

I have a book which you might find useful for the transcendentalist's

background, etc.  i bought it used, so i don't know if it's still in print, if

you can't find it and are interested in reading it, i'll see if i can find any

more copies in the used bookstores round here.

 

i have only read a wee bit of it as i bought it right about the time i joined

the list and started reading other things; but it seems like it could be a

good overview of the subject with many essays, poems and excerpts of writings.

 

"The American Transcendentalists"  edited by Perry Miller, published by The

Johns Hopkins University Press in 1981.  Originally published by Doubleday in

1957.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:50:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: your mail

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19971017131009.0068bed4@maila.wm.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

jon

well i admit that im not all the way thru _big sky mind_ (which reminds me

does anyone out there have copies of the issues of tricycle that

serialized kerouacs "wake up"? also - is that the same text that appeared

in _some of the dharma"?) but i do find the exploration of eastern

religion in beat lit rather fascinating - i wonder if it could be

considered bpart of their "rejection" of the status quo of western thought

(at the time) by trying to embrace a religion taht better exemplyfied

their belief in comapssion in what seemed a "compassionless" time?

yrs

derek

 

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Jonathan Pickle wrote:

> Derek,

> _Big Sky Mind_ has been sitting beside my bed for a couple of days now.  I

> think of Thoreau to be a precursor to the Alan Watts-"Beat Zen" spirit,

> though Thoreau associated more with the "Hindoo" faith.  I found this

> introductory essay to be very enlightening.  What all did you get out of

> it, the rest of the texts?

> 

> Jon

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:46:37 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      What is the sound of one hand clapping? (fwd) SUN RA

In-Reply-To:  <3441B9BB.45ED@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:00:01 -0800

>From: bofus? <bofus@mindspring.com>

>Subject: Re: SUN RA

> 

>Jeff Johnson <johnson3@eau.net> wrote:

>> 

>> here is a conversation with the late Sun Ra that James Jackson who played

>> oboe, bassoon and a whole bunch of other shit told me about:

>> 

>> James Jackson:  I got something you can't possibly figure out.  An

>> immeasurable equation.  Folks been tryin to put an answer to this for

years.

>> 

>> Sun Ra:  Oh yeah, Jacks?

>> 

>> James Jackson:  What is the sound of one hand clapping?

>> 

>> Sun Ra:   The wind.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:53:55 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      una poesia scritta in italiano da Lawrence Ferlinghetti.

In-Reply-To:  <3441B9BB.45ED@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                Alla maniera di Cecco Angiolieri

 

        S'i' fosse foco, non fumerei

        S'i' fosse vento, suonerei soltanto i flauti lirici

        S'i' fosse acqua, non berrei altro che vino

        S'i' fosse dio, mi farei una Dea

        S'i' fosse Papa, mi farei mamma mia

        S'i' fosse mamma, darei natali a molte vergini

        S'i' fosse imperatore, sa' che farei?

        Ucciderei tutti gl'imperatori.

 

        S'i' fosse morte, ritornerei all'utero per ricominciare

        S'i' fosse cieco, troverei un cane

        S'i' fosse un cane, troverei un cieco

        Che vuole fare molte passeggiate ai bordelli.

 

---

written in italian by Lawrence Ferlinghetti

---

 

cari saluti e buon sabato a tutti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:07:45 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: archive

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997101517244596@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 17.20 15/10/97 EDT,  Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET> wrote:

>The disk that holds the archive for Beat-l is full.   As a result, Fred

>Bogin and I will have to do something to free disk space.  Our plan is

>to download all 1995 files and to erase them from the online archive.  I

>will work on editing the downloaded files and restore those threads that

>I think have archival importance at a later date.  If anyone has any

>interest in keeping all postings to Beat-l for whatever mad reason, now

>would be a good time download those files to your hard drive.

> 

> 

Bill, please dont'make that Fahrenheit-like project to erase the

beat-L files 1995 or anything other, i've noticed that the entire

beat-L archive is 27,000,000bytes=27 megaByte, if i'm wrong

please have me a touch, i dunno 'cuz of 27 Mega are too much a lot

of disk space on the hard-disk. Please, please, don't...

yr Rinaldo... a merchant of venice...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:21:39 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:34 PM 10/17/97 UT, you wrote:

>Michael,

> 

>there's a huge difference between having someone thrown out and letting it

>happen.  which was it?  and where does one come by such information?  just

>curious...

> 

>ciao, sherri

> 

Hi, Sherri,       Oct 17, 1997

 

        I was there, I got thrown out along with Jan (and also Jacques

Kirouac, 70-year-old founding president of the Kerouac Family Association

from Quebec), so I can tell you my version.  You can also read what I wrote

about it on Joe Grant's website, www.bookzen.com.  My article there is

called "Kerouac-gate at NYU."

        Jan had been refused permission to participate in the conference by

Helen Kelly, NYU's program director, who was working closely with the Sampas

family, Ann Charters, and Allen Ginsberg.  So Jan paid $120 to get into the

conference about her father.  Just as the conference began, Jan approached

Allen Ginsberg, who had just taken the lecturn.  Jan had her elderly Quebec

cousin by her side.  Jan wanted to ask Allen, her godfather, if she could

have five minutes to speak to the audience.  Specifically, she wanted to

tell them that the New York Public Library and the Bancroft Library were

both willing to pay one million dollars to acquire the whole Kerouac

Archive.  She wanted to call upon John Sampas to work with her in getting

her father's archive into one of those libraries.  That was all she intended

to say.

        Immediately Helen Kelly fingered Jan, and university police rushed

up to grab both Jan and Jacques.  As the police began removing them from the

hall, I in turn stood up and yelled to Allen, who was standing mutely on the

stage: "Allen, you can't let this happen!  You can't let Jan Kerouac be

dragged out of a Kerouac Conference!"  Kelly fingered me, and the police

then began removing me too.

        Allen was standing like a befuddled old man, muttering into the

microphone that "this is all irrelevant!"  I yelled back at him--remember,

Allen and I had spent 100's of hours in each other's company over a 20 year

period, I had had dinner with Allen at his house several times, I had even

slept at his apartment in New York and his house in Boulder--I yelled to

Allen, "For God's sake, Allen!  It's not irrelevant!  This is Jack's

daughter!  It's about his papers!"

        Then Allen said, still muttering, "OK, let's take a vote."  But bear

in mind, there's all kinds of noise from the crowd, Jan's supporters in the

back of the room are yelling, most of the crowd doesn't know what the hell

is going on.  Allen mutters: "How many people want to listen to them?"  Only

a few hands go up, because most people don't even know this is Kerouac's

daughter, Kerouac's biographer, and the president of the Kerouac Family

Association.  Then Allen says more loudly: "How many people would like the

program to start now?"  And of course a lot more hands go up, because people

want the program to start.  They don't even know what they've voted to miss.

        So it's a complex story, but yes, I do hold Allen accountable.  He

sat on a witness stand during the trial of the Chicago Seven and told the

jury that Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Ruben had a constitutional right to cry

"Revolution!" in the streets of America.  But he would not stand up for the

right of his best friend's daughter, his goddaughter, to speak five minutes

about her own father.

        Go figure.

        Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:58:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

> 

>   While I do not share Donald's vehemence regarding this thread, I find it

>odd that Mr. Maher, who initially claimed to be performing a journalistic

>duty by sharing a quote (my apologies for paraphrasing), now resorts to such

>sarcasm.  Perhaps he's just having a bad day but it makes me wonder if his

>only reason for subscribing to this list is for self-promotion.  And when I

>think of all the messages containing nothing but URL's and a "Check out the

>new..." signed by Paul A. Maher Jr. of The Kerouac Quarterly, I'm quite sure

>that I wonder without good reason.

> 

>James Marshall

>Yes...you are the intuitive one, but unlike others, I have a constructive

agenda and I do contribute to this list. Sarcasm, I feel, is as much my

right as anybody's.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:52:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <3447911D.6EA8@sunflower.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> 

>  Oh speaking of references, where did you get this knowledge or "did you

> figure it out by yourself because i recall he refused to  take sides. Is

 

Not only did Ginsberg have Jan Ke rouac thrown out of the conference, he

was sitting next to John Sampas the whole time.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:49:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Ted Morgan is a journalist who writes biographies.  I

recall hearing a mention of his having written one about

either Ginsberg or Kerouac.  I read a pretty good one he

wrote about Somerset Maughm.

 

Mike Rice

 

At 08:53 PM 10/16/97 UT, you wrote:

>Patricia - this is wonderful.  do you have more of this?

>and who is Ted Morgan (ignorant, here)?

> 

>ciao,

>sherri

> 

>----------

>From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Patricia Elliott

>Sent:   Thursday, October 16, 1997 12:45 PM

>To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:        Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

> 

>Patricia Elliott wrote:

>this was a scrap of a poem from my journal, which is a pile of paper

>laying in a drawer, occassionally i add a page or note to it.

> 

>it is from a day that i went out to freds with william and ted morgan.

>I thought ted was a spook. on the scrap, the verses were seperated.

> 

>shooting with the men 1985  by patricia elliott

>The tall thin man

>leaps to a crouch

>opening fire on his own heart.

> 

>the tall slim eye once again

>baring the tattered muscle,

>He led me once and then again up to the gun.

>Both of us getting past past.

> 

>I shot fast, He took my hand ,

>he sang, he wept and gave me tears.

>we walked home through the dark.

> 

> 

>i watched morgan stand stiff, posed,

>ignoring me, for who was she

>but some ol sow eyed gal.

>I am the ghost, the one that suvived.

> 

>trying to smell the hidden secrets

>in the face of the horrid honest man.

>ted was green with fear

> if this was a writer.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:49:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: What Phil Chaput really Said about the Sampases

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:24 PM 10/16/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 11:12 PM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>Gerry you are a master with the pen to create that from our phone

>>conversation. Very good! Phil

>> 

>Phil,     Oct 16, 1997

>        If you disown that conversation, then you, sir, are the liar.  Your

>memory is not that poor.  And I will gladly sit down side by side with you

>in Lowell, with lie detectors fastened to our respective wrists, to see

>which one of us is "creating" and which one telling the truth.

>        Yours sincerely, Gerald Nicosia.

> 

> 

And instead of a traditional lie detector, a studio quality voice-0ver

from the Great Kerouac himself will render a verdict from somewhere in

the Beat Ethosphere to those gathered in Lowell.  It will be wonderful!

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:49:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:23 AM 10/17/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Richard Wallner wrote:

>> 

>> I believe Allen Ginsberg supported the Sampas family in this debate, for what

> thats worth.

> 

>... so who knows.RJW

> 

> Oh speaking of references, where did you get this knowledge or "did you

>figure it out by yourself because i recall he refused to  take sides. Is

>it from his refusal to take sides in this issue that makes you say

>this.  It is this kind of nonsense that establishes facts for many.

> 

>my breasts

>seem to be swelling,

>pressing out of my blouse

>oh god, they are falling out

>smothering the poor innocent lamb.

> 

>patricia

> 

> 

Dear Patty,

 

I would like to be there when that is happening.  I went

to Nashville last Saturday morning.  When I got back the

first war I had ever witnessed had broken out on the Beat

list.  I thought the dialogue was fairly tepid here since

I joined last summer.  Its great to see the list reacting

like a newsgroup for a change even if I don't want to argue

any of these issues.

 

While in Nashville, I stopped into a number of old record

shops like the The Ernest Tubb record store on Broadway and

searched for Beat archive material.  Just kidding about that.

I shopped a number of used CD and record stories looking for

a copy of Brooke Benton-40 Greatest Hits which includes the

Dinah Washington duets, and is no longer manufactured.  Also,

I was looking for any CD which contains the songs of mid sixties

folksinger Verdele Smith.  All I found were two singles with

Tar & Cement, a favorite of mine, on one side of each.  Does

anyone know what happened to her.  And does anyone know where

I might acquire CDs by these less than gigantic recording

artists?  I have checked many stores and several internet old

CD sites.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:39:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Sounds good.  I'll look for it around here too.

 

Jon

 

At 05:43 PM 10/17/97 UT, you wrote:

>Derek & Jon,

> 

>I have a book which you might find useful for the transcendentalist's

>background, etc.  i bought it used, so i don't know if it's still in

print, if

>you can't find it and are interested in reading it, i'll see if i can find

any

>more copies in the used bookstores round here.

> 

>i have only read a wee bit of it as i bought it right about the time i joined

>the list and started reading other things; but it seems like it could be a

>good overview of the subject with many essays, poems and excerpts of

writings.

> 

>"The American Transcendentalists"  edited by Perry Miller, published by The

>Johns Hopkins University Press in 1981.  Originally published by Doubleday in

>1957.

> 

>ciao,

>sherri

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:50:34 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie update

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 08:16 PM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Heard a great rumor about the OTR movie from a friend in LA.  Film is

>still in pre-production to be directed by Francis Ford Coppola.  But what

>Im told is that the movie will be narrated by Jack Kerouac himself!

>Apparently Kerouac made a studio quality recording of an "On the Road"

>reading.  Its going to be released by Polygram (I think) in conjunction

>with the movie whenever it comes out. So rather than have a third person

>doing the narration, the idea is to put Kerouac's own voice on the

>soundtrack!

> 

>I've never heard Kerouac's voice or if he does a good reading, but on the

>face of it, it seems like a great idea

> 

> 

 

If you've never heard Lerouac's voice and have a computer that can play

sound go to

 

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html

 

There are a lot of short sound snips of kerouac.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:45:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: your mail

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Derek,

They are separate works as far as I have understood.  I have not seen these

issues of Tricycle - it is not sold anywhere within walking distance of the

College.  I have asked earlier on the list, does any one know if Tricycle

has published the serialized version into one volume?

 

I agree - I find the Eastern aspect of the Beats fascinating.  I really

enjoy Alan Watts' essay "Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen"  it's on the net

somewhere I'm sure.  As far as their rejection oof the status quo - I don't

think so.  Rather I see it as a sincere search for something to make sense

of their lives - the rejection aspect comes in their questioning the dogmas

of the society.  That seems like more of a rejection than accepting an

Eastern perspective.

 

Jon

 

At 11:50 AM 10/17/97 -0600, you wrote:

>jon

>well i admit that im not all the way thru _big sky mind_ (which reminds me

>does anyone out there have copies of the issues of tricycle that

>serialized kerouacs "wake up"? also - is that the same text that appeared

>in _some of the dharma"?) but i do find the exploration of eastern

>religion in beat lit rather fascinating - i wonder if it could be

>considered bpart of their "rejection" of the status quo of western thought

>(at the time) by trying to embrace a religion taht better exemplyfied

>their belief in comapssion in what seemed a "compassionless" time?

>yrs

>derek

> 

>On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Jonathan Pickle wrote:

>> Derek,

>> _Big Sky Mind_ has been sitting beside my bed for a couple of days now.  I

>> think of Thoreau to be a precursor to the Alan Watts-"Beat Zen" spirit,

>> though Thoreau associated more with the "Hindoo" faith.  I found this

>> introductory essay to be very enlightening.  What all did you get out of

>> it, the rest of the texts?

>> 

>> Jon

>> 

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:59:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or is it Retro?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mike Rice wrote:

> 

> Ted Morgan is a journalist who writes biographies.  I

> recall hearing a mention of his having written one about

> either Ginsberg or Kerouac.  I read a pretty good one he

> wrote about Somerset Maughm.

 

 

gee, i would never have said that.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:13:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Hayward <hayward@SFU.CA>

Subject:      Van Morrison and the Beats

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Check out the following page (part of the Van Morrison home page(s)) for

Van Morrison references to Kerouac et al:

 

        http://www.harbour.sfu.ca/~hayward/van/glossary/kerouac.html

 

You can use the cross-linking to track down other references in Van's lyrics.

 

...Michael

 

>Date:    Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:17:32 -0400

>From:    Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

>Subject: Re: Van Morrison.

> 

>>> Alan Watts Blues                by Van Morrison

>> 

>>What album is this from?  I'm a big fan but don't recognize this one.  Of

>>course he's got a song list that would stretch the length of Italy so I'm

>>not surprised.

>> 

>>------------------

>>Alex Howard

> 

>Poetic Champions Compose. 1987.

> 

>Van refers quite often to beat references.

>In "Cleaning Windows" from Beautiful Vision, 1982

> 

>"I went home and read my Christmas Humpheries book on Zen.

>Curiosity killed the cat,

>Kerouac's Dharma Bums and On the Road.

>What's my line, I'm happy cleaning windows."

> 

>Also, in "On Hyndford Street" from the double release HYmns To the Silence

> 

>"And reading Mr. Jellyroll

>and Big Bill Broonzy

>and"Realy the Blues by Mezz Mezzrow

>and Dharma Bums by Jack Kerouac

>over and over again."

> 

>I'm sure there's other songs with beat references but these are the first

>ones that come to mind.

> 

>I've always seen Van as one of the real artists in the pop music field,

>doing what he wants to do as an artist and not worrying about record sales

>and pleasing the public very much.

> 

>Michael

 

Michael Hayward                            Email: hayward@sfu.ca

Himie Koshevoy Publishing Lab              Simon Fraser University

Tel: (604) 291-5032                        515 West Hastings Street

Fax: (604) 291-5060                        Vancouver, B.C.

WWW: http://www.harbour.sfu.ca/~hayward/   Canada V6B 5K3

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:39:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199710171733550772@classic.msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Sherri wrote:

 

> there's a huge difference between having someone thrown out and letting it

> happen.  which was it?  and where does one come by such information?

 

Well, I was there, I saw it. I just read Nicosia's post, and it reads pretty

much like how I remember. I remember the "vote," but I -- like many people

there, I can guess -- didn't know it was Jan Kerouac until later, when I was

told. Whover Jan and her companion was, it was obvious by the way the

conversation went that they knew AG, and it was weird seeing them get thrown

out etc. The convention was taped, there's a several-tape video out of it

that you can buy, and I assume that little scene made the tape (anybody

know? I am dyin' to see those tapes btw).

 

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:20:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

[this was meant for the list... btw sherri i'm almost positive that

water row stocks the tape...]

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 20:12:06 UT

From: Sherri  <love_singing@classic.msn.com>

To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>

Subject: RE: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

thanks to both Michael and Gerry for the info.  i too would be interested in

this video.  Jeff Weinberg, Jo Grant or Gary Glazner - any of you sell it?

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:17:31 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: your mail

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19971017144546.0068a4e8@maila.wm.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Jonathan Pickle wrote:

(snip)

> I agree - I find the Eastern aspect of the Beats fascinating.  I really

> enjoy Alan Watts' essay "Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen"  it's on the net

> somewhere I'm sure.  As far as their rejection oof the status quo - I don't

> think so.  Rather I see it as a sincere search for something to make sense

> of their lives - the rejection aspect comes in their questioning the dogmas

> of the society.  That seems like more of a rejection than accepting an

> Eastern perspective.

jon

good point - i hadnt really thought all that out beore i wrote - of

course, kerouac (for instance) didnt reject catholicism thru-out his life,

but rather tempered it with buddhism and tried to combine differnet

religions (as tonklinson (sp?) mentions in _big sky mind_ he meditated and

even fasted for ramadan). the best way that he could make sens eof his

"role" and his place with in the burgeoning 50's culture was to be drawn

to religion and meditation?

        i guess trying to define why someone is drawn religiously towards

something is a bit of a fallacy, isnt it?

        but it does seem that religion (for instance kerouac defining

"beat" as "beatific") plays a very large role in beat lit in general

(kerouac, ginsberg, snyder, saijo, welch, diprima, waldman, etc)...

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:51:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <199710171821.LAA06961@iceland.it.earthlink.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Maybe it does read too much into it though to say that Allen therefore

opposed Jan's ideas.

 

However, though he was her daughter, Jan was not anywhere near as close

to Jack as Ginsberg or his in-laws the Sampases.  (You mention in your

book that Jan only ever met Jack twice right?)

 

So who is moare qualified to judge what Jack would have wanted?  Im not

taking sides, just wondering how anyone could know for sure.

 

Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:52:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Shawn Vlad <svlad@CEHS.SIU.EDU>

Subject:      my first posting and my first poem for you all.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Well, given the amount of banter with this estate junk I thought I would

lighten things up and post a poem.

I have been working on a "duality" genre and have a couple of works to

show off eventually.  If you have any comments please respond to

gradvlad@hotmail.com.

 

Untitled

 

Green envy.

Slowly,

Slides.

 

Down my through

Like a.

Lubricated.

 

Piston.

 

copyrighted and all that junk...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:20:27 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: your mail

 

Jon & Derek,

 

perhaps spirituality would be a better term, as the Latin root of the word

religion includes the meaning "obligation, bond", which would seem to go

against the grain of the freedom that the beats sought.  i have always thought

that many of the beats were looking for the linking threads in their spiritual

explorations.  but perhaps that's because that's my slant...  just always

thought that the beats sought to get down to the roots of things, the core of

what is and as such, ignored what they found to be superfluous in various

schools of spiritual thought and held on to what rung true for them.

 

just a thought...

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:59:14 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <v01530501630b80b35865@[204.181.15.86]> from "Michael Czarnecki"

              at Oct 17, 97 11:28:52 am

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> >I support the continued, open discussion of the controversy surrounding

> >the Kerouac estate. I object to any policing or restriction of postings

> >that deal with Beat Generation topics.

> >

> >-John Hasbrouck

> 

> I wholeheartedly agree! The list can be moderated by each subscriber by

> simply not reading posts about the estate differences. No need to restrict

> in any other way. Ideally it would be great if there was no controversy

> relating to the estate, but it is what it is and it is relevant. It's all

> part of the flow. Hell, Jack and Allen had difficult times with each other

> over the years and same with Jack and Neal and Neal and Allen and. . . .

> Life isn't all peace, love and bliss.

> 

> Michael

 

I must say I find it unbelievable that anybody who lived through

the Spring '97 version of the Gerry/Phil/Paul show would actually

like to sit through a rerun, but I know you guys were both around

last time, so what can I say but "It takes all kinds"!

 

Personally, I just set my list subscription to digest form, which

means I'll get all the posts in a single mail once a day.  David

Rhaesa asked how this is done: you send mail to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

(any subject header is okay) with the text "set beat-l digest".

Takes a few hours to process, and when it does you get a mail

telling you how to reverse it if/when you want to.

 

I agree that life isn't all peace and love and bliss -- but I

always choose my battles, and I don't choose this one.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|              *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                    |

|                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:05:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Digest Information (was Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Levi Asher wrote:

> 

> Personally, I just set my list subscription to digest form, which

> means I'll get all the posts in a single mail once a day.  David

> Rhaesa asked how this is done: you send mail to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

> (any subject header is okay) with the text "set beat-l digest".

> Takes a few hours to process, and when it does you get a mail

> telling you how to reverse it if/when you want to.

> 

 

Thanks L.A.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:42:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Kirouack@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: jazz

 

how about...

 

charlie christian

coleman hawkins

jimmy smith

joe williams

dave brubeck

zoot simms

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:54:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      NYU Beat Conference Video Tapes

 

For those of you who asked about videos of NYU Beat conference, May 1994

(when Jan and Gerry were booted out), Yes, we sell tapes of the

conference....None of the tapes have the hassle scenes with Jan and Gerry but

they all do have panel discussions and talks with various Beat legends and

participants:

 

1. The NY Beat Genration Show: Volume one - History and Overview

of Beat Generation. With Charters, Ginsberg, Amram, Carolyn Cassady, Corso,

Ferlinghetti, Joyce johnson, Hettie Jones, Hunter Thompson, and others.

2. The NY Beat Generation Show:Volume two - Women and The Beats. Jan Kerouac,

Carolyn Cassady, Hettie Jones, Joyce Johnson, Anne Waldman.

3. The NY Beat Generation Show: Volume  three - "Music Moves The Spirit."

Performances byDavid Amram, Ginsberg, Ted Joans, Ray Manzarek (Doors) and

Michael McClure, Terry Southern.

 

Also available:

 

4."The Poetable JackKerouac & Selected Letters 1940-56."

March 15, 1995. St Mark's Poetry Center, NYC. Hosted by Ann Charters and

Allen Ginsberg. In celebration of the two Kerouac books, there was a all-star

reading with Charters, Clark Coolidge, Dave Van Ronk, Ginsberg, Amram, Ed

Sander, Lee Ranaldo, Jan Kerouac, and others.

 

5. "Ginsberg Sings Blake." A concert of 30 songs performed by Allen - lyrics

by William Blake. Songs of Innocence/Songs ofExperience.

 

6. Beat Legends: Gregory Corso. 1991 historic greenwich Village

Reading. 55 mins.

 

7. Beat Legends: Allen GINSBERG

92 MINS. 1992 readIng in NYC.

 

8. Ray Bremser: The Jazz Poems. 1994 NYC. Bremser reads his jazz/Beat poetry

in his hotel room...Bremser is Bob Dylan's favorite Beat poet....

 

All tapes are $39.95 each. Shipping extra.

All videos produced by Thin Air Video. Sometimes the editor gets a little too

creative (IMO) with special effects but these tapes have sold well here for

the past three years.....

Any questions, let me know.....

MC/Visa/Check/Money ORDER. Satisfaction guaranteed (as usual)

Thanks -

Jeffrey

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:06:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: NYU Beat Conference Video Tapes

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:54 PM 10/17/97 -0400, you wrote:

>For those of you who asked about videos of NYU Beat conference, May 1994

>(when Jan and Gerry were booted out), Yes, we sell tapes of the

>conference....None of the tapes have the hassle scenes with Jan and Gerry...

 

Once again we get the edited version of history.  What did they do, burn the

tape with me and Jan on it?  Anybody connected with NYU care to respond?

        --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:12:16 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: NYU Beat Conference Video Tapes

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:54 PM 10/17/97 -0400, you wrote:

>For those of you who asked about videos of NYU Beat conference, May 1994

>(when Jan and Gerry were booted out),

 

Hi, Jeffrey,     Oct 17, 1997

 

        Guess what?  You've got the wrong date.  In May, 1994, Jan and I

were honored guests; we even had our official badges.  That was the Beat

Generation Conference.  (We just didn't get to sleep in the same dormitory

with Ann Charters or to sit at the head table with her.)  It was in June

1995, at the Kerouac Conference, when we barely got thru door before getting

tossed out.

        Just trying to keep history straight.

        --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:47:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck (fwd)

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.95.971017161930.14616H-100000@devel.nacs.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>[this was meant for the list... btw sherri i'm almost positive that

>water row stocks the tape...]

>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 20:12:06 UT

>From: Sherri  <love_singing@classic.msn.com>

>To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>

>Subject: RE: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

> 

>thanks to both Michael and Gerry for the info.  i too would be interested in

>this video.  Jeff Weinberg, Jo Grant or Gary Glazner - any of you sell it?

> 

>ciao,

>sherri

 

 

Jo Grant here.

 

 No I do not have it, but I'll bet an eye tooth that the powers that ran

that conference have edited out anything that was on tape showing Jan, the

seniorKeroauc and Gerry getting a police escorted heave-ho from the

conference.

 

If the tapes actually show that incedent I'll want a copy.

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:49:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971017164904.27508A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Maybe it does read too much into it though to say that Allen therefore

>opposed Jan's ideas.

> 

>However, though he was her daughter, Jan was not anywhere near as close

>to Jack as Ginsberg or his in-laws the Sampases.  (You mention in your

>book that Jan only ever met Jack twice right?)

> 

>So who is moare qualified to judge what Jack would have wanted?  Im not

>taking sides, just wondering how anyone could know for sure.

> 

>Richard W.

 

Read Jack's last letter, written to his nephew the day before he died. If

you do not have a copy I'll send you one--even tho I have been threaten

with law suits by John Sampas over the copy I have.

 

j grant

 

 

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                           at

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             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:53:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: NYU Beat Confer...

 

Hey, thanks for setting me straight on the dates, Gerry!

Jeffrey

WRB

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:44:39 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: women poets - DiPrima poem

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

> Sudama Adam Rice wrote:

>=20

> THE PRACTICE OF MAGICAL EVOCATION

> Diane DiPrima

>=20

> The female is fertile, and discipline

> (contra naturam) only

>           confuses her

>                =8BGary Snyder

>=20

> I am a woman and my poems

> are a woman=B9s:   easy to say

> this.   the female is ductile

> and

>      (stroke after stroke)

> built for masochistic

> calm.     The deadened nerve

> is part of it:

> awakened sex, dead retina

> fish eyes;     at hair=B9s root

> minimal feeling

>=20

> and pelvic architecture functional

> assailed inside & out

> (bring forth) the cunt gets wide

> and relatively sloppy

> bring forth men children only

>           female

>           is

>           ductile

>=20

> woman, a veil thru which the fingering Will

> twice torn

> twice torn

>      inside & out

> the flow

> what rhythm add to stillness

> what applause?

>=20

> --

> Adam

 

Thanks for posting this! I really liked "female is ductile" theme; it's=20

really something to think about.

DC=20

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:51:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Comments on the Estate Battle

In-Reply-To:  <msg1071644.thr-36d2968f.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Before I comment I should make it clear to the list that I am about as far

from being a student of the Beats, a beat scholar, or any kind of a scholar

as a person can get. I've read a little. That reading provided me with

information about what I believe Jack Keroauc would to do with his

archives. There's not a beat scholar who doesn't know where JK would have

everything--if he had it to do over again. The archives would be in a

library safe, secure sand available to study.

 

Regarding the law suits that Gerry Nicosia is pursuing--at the explicit

written request of Jan Keroauc please remember this:  A victory in the

courts for Jan Keroauc will be a victory for Jack Kerouac and all Keroauc

students, teachers, researchers and readers.

 

Jack Keroauc wanted his archives available to the public.

Jan Keroauc wanted his archives safe and available to the public.

Gerry Nicosia promised Jan Keroauc that he would carry out her wishes. He

is doing so.

 

Jan's request to Gerry is part of her will. Her will was recorded and is

legal.John Sampas and Jan's ex-husband are trying to get her will changed.

If they were trying to get lines deleted from one of Jan's books every

writer in the country would be up in arms. But a writer's will appears to

interest no one except a few people who were close to her when she died and

a few others who have much to gain by getting Nicosia removed as Jan's

literary executor.

 

After including the request in her will, and shortly before her death, she

had Gerry promise that nothing would keep him from fulfilling her requests

to save her father's archives. I know this because she told me so and Gerry

said it was true when I asked him. So Gerry is tied to the death-bed

request of a friend who had been completely abandoned by her ex-husband,

and was being cheated out of royalties by John Sampas--cheated out of money

she needed for medical care. She was very much alone and she told me,

"Gerry Nicosia is the only person I absolutely trust."

 

As a result:

 

Gerry is being financially hammered at every turn. Again and again, on

Jan's behalf he is away from family. The fact that he faces financial

problems because of his promise to Jan has not affected his commitment and

I'm certain it never will.

.

When the suits on behalf of Jan are over I believe the locks will come off

all the Keroauc material, the sale of items from the archives will stop,

and Jan's wishes (and that reads Jack's wishes) will be fulfilled.

 

When all is said and done Gerry MIGHT get his legal expenses covered.

 

As for John Sampas' comment that Gerry's   "...poisoned hand will never

touch the Kerouac archive. His touch is the touch of death." one has only

to read "Memory Babe: A Critical Biography of Jack Keroauc" to know that

this remark is a portrait of John Sampas and unrelated to Gerry Nicosia

whose reputation for research excellence and honesty is established.

 

j grant

 

PS: To the Special Collections librarian where the Memory Babe archive is

housed:  The fact that you are not making copies of the taped interviews

that are part of that colletion--to insure that the conversations are

preserved--is a literay outrage.  A time will come when you will have to

justify the fact that you are not caring for those tapes to the best of

your ability. How will you answer your fellow preservation librarians when

they ask?  How will your colleagues judge your lack of action if those

priceless interviews are lost forever?

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:22:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Comments on the Estate Battle

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:51 PM 10/17/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Before I comment I should make it clear to the list that I am about as far

>from being a student of the Beats, a beat scholar, or any kind of a scholar

>as a person can get. I've read a little. That reading provided me with

>information about what I believe Jack Keroauc would to do with his

>archives. There's not a beat scholar who doesn't know where JK would have

>everything--if he had it to do over again. The archives would be in a

>library safe, secure sand available to study.

> 

>More power to him....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:10:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Comments on the Estate Battle

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>PS: To the Special Collections librarian where the Memory Babe archive

>is

>housed:  The fact that you are not making copies of the taped interviews

>that are part of that colletion--to insure that the conversations are

>preserved--is a literay outrage.  A time will come when you will have to

>justify the fact that you are not caring for those tapes to the best of

>your ability. How will you answer your fellow preservation librarians

>when

>they ask?  How will your colleagues judge your lack of action if those

>priceless interviews are lost forever?

 

     it blows my mind on one hand that someone who works in this field

can negelect its precepts so casually.  on the other hand, i've worked

in a library environment and known many librarians, and the majority of

them have severe attitude problems and go on frequent power trips, an

odd trend.  it's obviously not a monetary problem because they're not

even trying to do anything, at the very least the tapes should be

digitized and placed on CD and the originals preserved...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:16:19 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Lachlan Jobbins <hipster66@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Ted Morgan

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hi Mike,  hi all,

   Ted Morgan wrote an excellent biography of William S. Burroughs

entitled LITERARY OUTLAW. Published by Pimlico. ISBN 0712650407. I found

this in '94 and thoroughly enjoyed it. Highly recommended as an outline

of his life, perhaps lacking in critical depth but on the whole very

worthwhile to read. Like what MEMORY BABE did for Kerouac (ie separate

the human being and writer from the cultural icon), LITERARY OUTLAW is

an intensely readable account of an incredible life, not an

advertisement.

     Enjoy,  Lachlan Jobbins.... Hipster66@hotmail.com

 

>Ted Morgan is a journalist who writes biographies.  I

>recall hearing a mention of his having written one about

>either Ginsberg or Kerouac.  I read a pretty good one he

>wrote about Somerset Maughm.

> 

>Mike Rice

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:20:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <v03007804b06d720de72d@[156.46.45.149]>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, jo grant wrote:

 

> 

> Read Jack's last letter, written to his nephew the day before he died. If

> you do not have a copy I'll send you one--even tho I have been threaten

> with law suits by John Sampas over the copy I have.

> 

> j grant

> 

> 

Yes, please send me a copy of this letter, I'd be very interested in

readingit.  Send it to me privately off the list if you think its going

tomake people upset.

 

Richard W. (richardw@capaccess.org)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:32:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Comments on the Estate Battle

In-Reply-To:  <v03007800b06d07bca625@[156.46.45.156]>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> Jan's request to Gerry is part of her will. Her will was recorded and is

> legal.John Sampas and Jan's ex-husband are trying to get her will changed.

> If they were trying to get lines deleted from one of Jan's books every

> writer in the country would be up in arms. But a writer's will appears to

> interest no one except a few people who were close to her when she died and

> a few others who have much to gain by getting Nicosia removed as Jan's

> literary executor.

> 

 

What is Jan's ex-husband's interest in this?  Why would he care one way

or another, unless maybe the Sampas family is paying him?  Is this what

is being implied here?

 

Also I know from later editionsof OTR that Jan got her name on the

copyrightr when it was renewed (that must have been another court fight

with the Sampases I asume)  So she must have benefited finacially from

sales of OTR the last few years before her death right?  If so, it

wouldnt be fair of the Sampases to portray her as simply being after the

money.

 

This is all very interesting indeed!

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:41:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Jan Kerouac/Estate battle

Comments: To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199710180012.RAA16998@sweden.it.earthlink.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Hey Gerald, have you ever considered writing a book about Jan Kerouac's

life, relationship withher father, and this estate battle?  This seems

like a compelling story about a daughter trying to connect with her

father by fighting to preserve his memory.  Surely there is a terrific

book in this, maybe when the estate battle finally ends one way or

another?

 

You have expressed a strong desire on thislist for people to know the

truth about what happened andis happening.  Once it isout in book form,

the truth will always be out there.  Hope you consider it.  Im sure

publishers would jump at the chance to put out this story.

 

Unless ofcourse, they are strong-armed by the Sampases (who could

threaten to exclude publishers from future offerings of Kerouac material

if they publish a Nicosia book about Jan and the estate battle I 'spose)

 

Hope you consider it anyway.

 

Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:39:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Birthdays and translations

Comments: To: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.solidsolutions.com>,

          "jjw-l@io.com" <jjw-l@io.com>,

          Johnny Winter <jwinter@sicel-home-2-19.urbanet.ch>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

This isn't exactly on topic, but today is Chuck Berry's 71st birthday.

That kinda puts rock into perspective.  Chuck has influenced everybody.

 

On this same page of the Columbia State, there is a list of bad

translations.  Several of them are very good, but the best is the Pepsi

Slogan, "Come Alive, You're in the Pepsi Generation." which translated

to "Pepsi Will Bring Your Ancestors Back From the Dead."  Now, that is

something that a lot of televangelist could use.

 

Wynton Marsalis is 36 today as well.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 08:33:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jan Williams <janbill@RICOCHET.NET>

Subject:      Re: Birthdays and translations

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>

Comments: cc: Hey Joe <hey-joe@www.gartholamew.com>,

          "jjw-l@io.com" <jjw-l@io.com>,

          Johnny Winter <jwinter@sicel-home-2-19.urbanet.ch>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

today is Chuck Berry's 71st birthday.

 

Let's just hope that Johnny can make it way, way past his 71st!

 

Jan

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:09:13 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: archive

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:07:45 +0100 from <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

 

I have no choice Rinaldo.  There's no more room.  If I don't erase older files,

 new files will not be archived.  Best I can do is back up the archives on a fl

oppy disk.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:26:29 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Oops!

 

Sorry, that last message was meant for Rinaldo.  Well, guess he'll read it on t

he list.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:01:07 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac edtate

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

My thanks to Jo Grant for very informative comments on Gerry and the Kerouac

estate battle.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:14:59 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      Jack'l lat letter

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

J. Grant: I would be very interested in seeing a copy of the letter by Kerouac

on his death bed. My e-mail address is: winte030@tc.umn.edu   Thanks, Donald

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:50:42 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Colin Hartridge <colinh@WIMSEY.COM>

Subject:      Re: Birthdays

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>,

          Hey Joe <hey-joe@www.gartholamew.com>, "jjw-l@io.com" <jjw-l@io.com>,

          Johnny Winter <jwinter@sicel-home-2-19.urbanet.ch>

In-Reply-To:  <3448CA20.4F345BA6@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:39 AM -0400 10/18/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

>This isn't exactly on topic, but today is Chuck Berry's 71st birthday.

>That kinda puts rock into perspective.  Chuck has influenced everybody.

 

YIKES! And Roger Moore is 70! Well, Chuck's not over the hill, but he can

certainly see the top of it!

 

Next month, Jimi Hendrix would have been 55 years old.

 

Keep on rockin',

Colin

 

 

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Colin Hartridge (Captain Maniac) |  Vancouver, B.C. Canada

colinh@wimsey.com                |  "Past the outskirts of infinity"

_________________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 13:20:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack'l lat letter

 

i'm very interested in seeing letter also. is there any way you could post it

to the list? i'm not sure if you're allowed to do that though. do you know if

this letter will appear in Anne Charters second edition of JK letters?

 

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:22:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Birthdays

In-Reply-To:  <l03010d04b06ea708ba1c@[204.191.155.124]>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

James Dean would be 64

 

On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Colin Hartridge wrote:

 

> At 10:39 AM -0400 10/18/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> >This isn't exactly on topic, but today is Chuck Berry's 71st birthday.

> >That kinda puts rock into perspective.  Chuck has influenced everybody.

> 

> YIKES! And Roger Moore is 70! Well, Chuck's not over the hill, but he can

> certainly see the top of it!

> 

> Next month, Jimi Hendrix would have been 55 years old.

> 

> Keep on rockin',

> Colin

> 

> 

> 

> 

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Colin Hartridge (Captain Maniac) |  Vancouver, B.C. Canada

> colinh@wimsey.com                |  "Past the outskirts of infinity"

> _________________________________________________________________________

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 13:40:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Jack'l lat letter

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Me as well.

 

Jon(jrpick@maila.wm.edu)

 

At 12:14 PM 10/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>J. Grant: I would be very interested in seeing a copy of the letter by

Kerouac

>on his death bed. My e-mail address is: winte030@tc.umn.edu   Thanks, Donald

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:48:11 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>> Read Jack's last letter, written to his nephew the day before he

>died. If

>> you do not have a copy I'll send you one--even tho I have been

>threaten

>> with law suits by John Sampas over the copy I have.

>> 

>Yes, please send me a copy of this letter, I'd be very interested in

>readingit.  Send it to me privately off the list if you think its going

>tomake people upset.

 

     myself also please, have heard snippits of it, don't think i've

ever read whole thing... would be very interested.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:58:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Jack'l lat letter

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>Jon(jrpick@maila.wm.edu)

 

>>on his death bed. My e-mail address is: winte030@tc.umn.edu   Thanks,

>Donald

>>.CUNY.EDU

 

     oh yeah, forgot my e-mail:  Tyson_Ouellette@umit.maine.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:03:32 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

i'd like VERY much to read this letter as well....

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Tyson Ouellette

Sent:   Saturday, October 18, 1997 11:48 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

>> Read Jack's last letter, written to his nephew the day before he

>died. If

>> you do not have a copy I'll send you one--even tho I have been

>threaten

>> with law suits by John Sampas over the copy I have.

>> 

>Yes, please send me a copy of this letter, I'd be very interested in

>readingit.  Send it to me privately off the list if you think its going

>tomake people upset.

 

     myself also please, have heard snippits of it, don't think i've

ever read whole thing... would be very interested.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:33:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Birthdays and translations

In-Reply-To:  <3448CA20.4F345BA6@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>This isn't exactly on topic, but today is Chuck Berry's 71st birthday.

>That kinda puts rock into perspective.  Chuck has influenced everybody.

 

Bentz,

 

Years ago, in Danville, Chuck would come sailing through and stop to party.

We'd have to be careful. Those were segregation days, plus the cops watched

him like a hawk after he ended up getting nailed for taking a minor (who

happened to look like a  22 years old and and screwed like she'd studied

yoga with a grand master in India for five years) across a state line.

Great guy. Brilliant musician, tough on white guys--altho I am and we got

along fine.

 

By the way did you ever see the video when he was performing with the lead

guitarest form the Stones--a jam session. Chuck would side up to the guy

and tell him he was going to change keys. Scared him to death since he had

no theory training. Chuck was so funny teasing that guy the way he did.

 

By the way, I sent a post to the list last night and never received it

back. Did you see a post from me discussing Gerry Nicosia?  I was defending

him from the beating he was taking at the hands of Sampsa' henchmen.

 

I'm concerned that the listmaster may has cut it--even tho I was very

careful to not be flaming anyone.

 

joe

 

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=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:39:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jan Kerouac/Estate battle

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971018103338.29759C-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Richard,

I sent the following post to the list last night and never received a copy.

I'm wondering if it was not sent out. did you see it? I'd appreciate it if

you'd let me know.

Thanks

j grant

 

 

***

 

Before I comment I should make it clear to the list that I am about as far

from being a student of the Beats, a beat scholar, or any kind of a scholar

as a person can get. I've read a little. That reading provided me with

information about what I believe Jack Keroauc would to do with his

archives. There's not a beat scholar who doesn't know where JK would have

everything--if he had it to do over again. The archives would be in a

library safe, secure sand available to study.

 

Regarding the law suits that Gerry Nicosia is pursuing--at the explicit

written request of Jan Keroauc please remember this:  A victory in the

courts for Jan Keroauc will be a victory for Jack Kerouac and all Keroauc

students, teachers, researchers and readers.

 

Jack Keroauc wanted his archives available to the public.

Jan Keroauc wanted his archives safe and available to the public.

Gerry Nicosia promised Jan Keroauc that he would carry out her wishes. He

is doing so.

 

Jan's request to Gerry is part of her will. Her will was recorded and is

legal.John Sampas and Jan's ex-husband are trying to get her will changed.

If they were trying to get lines deleted from one of Jan's books every

writer in the country would be up in arms. But a writer's will appears to

interest no one except a few people who were close to her when she died and

a few others who have much to gain by getting Nicosia removed as Jan's

literary executor.

 

After including the request in her will, and shortly before her death, she

had Gerry promise that nothing would keep him from fulfilling her requests

to save her father's archives. I know this because she told me so and Gerry

said it was true when I asked him. So Gerry is tied to the death-bed

request of a friend who had been completely abandoned by her ex-husband,

and was being cheated out of royalties by John Sampas--cheated out of money

she needed for medical care. She was very much alone and she told me,

"Gerry Nicosia is the only person I absolutely trust."

 

As a result:

 

Gerry is being financially hammered at every turn. Again and again, on

Jan's behalf he is away from family. The fact that he faces financial

problems because of his promise to Jan has not affected his commitment and

I'm certain it never will.

.

When the suits on behalf of Jan are over I believe the locks will come off

all the Keroauc material, the sale of items from the archives will stop,

and Jan's wishes (and that reads Jack's wishes) will be fulfilled.

 

When all is said and done Gerry MIGHT get his legal expenses covered.

 

As for John Sampas' comment that Gerry's   "...poisoned hand will never

touch the Kerouac archive. His touch is the touch of death." one has only

to read "Memory Babe: A Critical Biography of Jack Keroauc" to know that

this remark is a portrait of John Sampas and unrelated to Gerry Nicosia

whose reputation for research excellence and honesty is established.

 

j grant

 

PS: To the Special Collections librarian where the Memory Babe archive is

housed:  The fact that you are not making copies of the taped interviews

that are part of that colletion--to insure that the conversations are

preserved--is a literay outrage.  A time will come when you will have to

justify the fact that you are not caring for those tapes to the best of

your ability. How will you answer your fellow preservation librarians when

they ask?  How will your colleagues judge your lack of action if those

priceless interviews are lost forever?

 

****

 

 

>Hey Gerald, have you ever considered writing a book about Jan Kerouac's

>life, relationship withher father, and this estate battle?  This seems

>like a compelling story about a daughter trying to connect with her

>father by fighting to preserve his memory.  Surely there is a terrific

>book in this, maybe when the estate battle finally ends one way or

>another?

> 

>You have expressed a strong desire on thislist for people to know the

>truth about what happened andis happening.  Once it isout in book form,

>the truth will always be out there.  Hope you consider it.  Im sure

>publishers would jump at the chance to put out this story.

> 

>Unless ofcourse, they are strong-armed by the Sampases (who could

>threaten to exclude publishers from future offerings of Kerouac material

>if they publish a Nicosia book about Jan and the estate battle I 'spose)

> 

>Hope you consider it anyway.

> 

>Richard W.

 

 

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=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:08:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      beat

 

hi......

 

i'm an eighteen year-old college student just introduced to the world of jack

kerouac and the beat genre........

 

it's been truly interesting to listen to these feuds about jack's estate and

all, each side of the "debate", such and such.......but.......

 

since people like me, and i am sure there are more like me, are not too in

tune with the whole beat atmosphere; perhaps as a couple of side e-mails

people could take off of these bloodbaths against each other and get back to

the heart of the literature...

 

i, for one, would be interested in knowing everybody's favorite beat books,

songs, quotations, etc........the lit. itself, the authors

themselves.........it's obvious that a good deal of people attached to this

mailing list are more knowledgeable than i am, so it'd be nice to hear

feedback from all of you......

 

some questions i would like to ask Each of you:

what draws you to this genre?

what is so important about it? in the role of america or the world?

where is it headed, if anywhere?

how have these authors and poets impacted your lives?

 

etc.....etc.......the trivial things that are the most important

sometimes........otherwise, the legal mumbo jumbo will get old unless

balanced with another topic....

 

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:07:12 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Sherri wrote:

> 

> i'd like VERY much to read this letter as well....

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

> 

 

Me too as well!

 

Adrien

vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:30:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Comments: To: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca>

In-Reply-To:  <344924FF.76DF@sk.sympatico.ca>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

We dont want to get anone (Bill Gargan etc) associated with the beat list

sued though.  I take it that the Sampas family has threatened to sue the

Beat-L list moderators or organizers in the past for inappropriate postings?

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:24:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

brian, I guess you're venturing into the deep seas of the Beats like a lot

of other college sts. I've met.

OTR, I believe has been the highest selling book in mass quantity sold on

college campuses for the past seven years.  Strange to go to fellow

dormmates rooms and have them tell me that they've "found" JK and that they

think I should try him.  That's when I usually take them upstairs and show

them the complete collection of works that I have - circa 29 books by JK

alone.

 

But, what do I think attracts me to the lit.

OH - big question.  Probably because I identify with much of the Beat

spirit concerning life.  -  That's my cliff's notes answer.

 

I think a better question is why were you drawn to it.  Why do you feel

that the youth of today are finding solace in JK and AG and WSB and the

others?

 

Jon

 

PS- as far as quotes go.  I can't pick.  I've got about a hundred from OTR

alone.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:36:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Comments on the Estate Battle

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971018102331.29759B-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>> Jan's request to Gerry is part of her will. Her will was recorded and is

>> legal.John Sampas and Jan's ex-husband are trying to get her will changed.

>> If they were trying to get lines deleted from one of Jan's books every

>> writer in the country would be up in arms. But a writer's will appears to

>> interest no one except a few people who were close to her when she died and

>> a few others who have much to gain by getting Nicosia removed as Jan's

>> literary executor.

>> 

> 

>What is Jan's ex-husband's interest in this?  Why would he care one way

>or another, unless maybe the Sampas family is paying him?  Is this what

>is being implied here?

> 

>Also I know from later editionsof OTR that Jan got her name on the

>copyrightr when it was renewed (that must have been another court fight

>with the Sampases I asume)  So she must have benefited finacially from

>sales of OTR the last few years before her death right?  If so, it

>wouldnt be fair of the Sampases to portray her as simply being after the

>money.

> 

>This is all very interesting indeed!

 

Actually Jan treated he ex very wellin her will. He will receive her

royalties which will provide him with around $50 thou a year. Seems like a

lot, but for Jan, with her medical problems, it was very little.

 

Her ex, with help from John Sampas, is trying to get Gerry Nicosia removed

as Jan's lierary executor. They want him out because he is pursuing the law

suit in St. Pete, FL which will probably prove that Memere's signature on

the will that left everything ot Stella, was forged.

 

Government handwriting experts say the signature is not memere's.

 

The fellow who signed the will as the witness to Memere's signing has

admitted that he did not see her sign the will. Was told she had by John

Sampas.

 

If the suit in Florida is successful, the keroauc colletion wil go into a

major library--probably NY Public of UC Berkeley. Both are wiling to pay a

mil for the collection. This would leave, Jack's nephew, the Sampas segment

(unless the forgery turns into a criminal charge), and jan's ex, John Lash,

with a substantial piece of the sale price. enpough for everyone to be

happy, UNLESS you're sitting on it all and want it all.

 

I'l get a copy of the letter ready.

 

I'll include notes that Gerry Nicosia made when I first sought information

on it.

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

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             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:04:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Jon B. Pearlstone" <THYE@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Letter

 

Add my name to the growing list of people who would like to see the Kerouac

Letter from the day before he died.  Boy, there sure are a lot of

disinterested people interested in the estate battle (I'm one of them--keep

talking).

 

Jon Pearlstone

 

E-Mail    THYE@AOL.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:56:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      more of patricia's poetry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

jack

at the democratic confention he only saw the lip of the bottle,

if he looked up it was with a surly glance.

 

wsb

No one asked, well other than that day

how did you two get along?

 

 

    towels new mexico

 

one day, william beckons.

says, here, these were joans,

you take them.

Evie had them, gave them back to me.

two striped towels.

they were nice towels, good thread count, stripes,

somehow southwestern, hopi.

sometimes he would mention her to me,

as a person, not as an event.

never in company.

once when wayne was going to

use one of williams' canes and leap backwards,

william yells, nonononononoo

then explains that was how his father died.

He punctuated my life with his surprising kindness.

He would walk across the room

fletch would zig zag between his legs,

they would both be surprised when william would tread on him,

fletch screaching, william dancing suddenly,

graceful for only that moment.

 

the corpse

is the unblemished cheek,

only fatique prepares us,

the true grimace is the one of living.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:08:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      what OTR means to my ignorant self

 

In a message dated 97-10-18 16:28:05 EDT, you write:

 

<< brian, I guess you're venturing into the deep seas of the Beats like a lot

 of other college sts. I've met.

 OTR, I believe has been the highest selling book in mass quantity sold on

 college campuses for the past seven years.

yes.......i knew about the book previously, had never read it......but my

contemporary lit. professor introduced us to it.....along with the other beat

staple "howl".........the only other "beat" book i have is "some of the

dharma" and i just did get the cd "kicks joy darkness'......

 

 I think a better question is why were you drawn to it.  Why do you feel

 that the youth of today are finding solace in JK and AG and WSB and the

 others >>

the youth of the day i do not know if i can speak for......a lot of the youth

my age aren't too totally concerned with jk, or ag, or wsb......their

interests are more and more, if anything, focused away from

literature......in high school, for example, i was hard-pressed to find

friends who would read literature outside of class.......but i am one person,

in one dinky town, in one college, who has never moved, so it is terribly

hard for me to overgeneralize my age group........i can only speak for

myself......and this reason being, i've been a natural cynic of what little i

have in contact with american society......(because i do have little

experience with the world in general, it's a safe assumption i am Ignorant,

so bear with my thoughts)......i'm upset with the notions of what my youth is

expected to be by older generations..and then what they make of us.......and

i'm sick of titles and overgeneralizations over who i am, or what i

represent......i do not know any of these things.....nor sometimes do i truly

care........i've always felt like i belonged elsewhere, with people more like

myself(who seem limited in scope), almost anachronistic in a way.......in

ways i feel cyncial towards how society, at least american, is set-up,no

matter how Good I have it(i can not once complain about my life, it's been

all too  perfect, but in a way, that's one of the problems)........i'm

cynical towards older generations(not all people fit the same mold though),

as well as a good deal of the people my age......then i read OTR......and

another world opens up.......and people in the novel begin to correlate with

people i know and that i am friends with........and it seems as though

everything we thought and said in high school and even now(still in our

ignorance mind you)........are shadows of what OTR stands for........so much

of the cassady/moriarty character i saw in one of my best friends, my other

best friend i saw what paradise and all the rest were trying to

avoid.......and in kerouac, at least in this novel, it appeared as though i

found a tangible voice to the mounting frustrations i've been having with my

perceived american microcosm..........

 

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:16:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Letter

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Add my name to the growing list of people who would like to see the Kerouac

>Letter from the day before he died.  Boy, there sure are a lot of

>disinterested people interested in the estate battle (I'm one of them--keep

>talking).

> 

>Jon Pearlstone

> 

>E-Mail    THYE@AOL.com

 

Please add me to the letter list too, though I feel a little like I

shouldn't be taking up list space just to say that but don't want to miss

out on it either.

 

peent@servtech.com (Michael Czarnecki)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:15:44 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "MYLES A. HASELHORST" <hase8846@BLUE.UNCO.EDU>

Subject:      The First Third

In-Reply-To:  <971018160555_1767934263@emout04.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Just the other day I bought a copy of "The First Third" at this used book

store on Broadway in Denver. The cool thing is that later that day and the

night prior, I had been walking around down town; up and down Larimer

street. It's cool standing there knowing that Neal Cassady ran up and down

those streets as a little kid.

        Anyway, I was just curious to hear some other peoples thoughts and

feelings on the book: in particular, the letter to Ken Kesey. Also, have

any of you read "The Electric Koolaid Acid Test?" In relation to this

book, who knows some info. on the latter years of Neal Cassady's life?

 

Myles.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:34:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      No Subject

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Brian: I'm glad to see that you're entering the world of Beat.  Although I'm

quite a few decades older than you, my 17-year old son is beginning to explore

the Beats.  Let me just suggest some works that I suggested to him and that you

might enjoy.  Other than the Beat "classics" like Kerouac's "On the Road,"

"Dharma Bums," "The Sunterraneans," etc., Ginsberg's "Howl" and Burroughs'

novels, "Naked Lunch," "Soft Machine" and "Nova Express," you probably will want

to read such wonderful poetry as all of Ferlinghetti's "Coney Island of the

Mind," Gregory Corso's "Army," "Marriage," and countless others.  I don't have

time to even scratch the surface right now but I would be happy to try to make

other suggestions if you contact me at my e-mail address: winte030@tc.umn.edu

Happy reading,  Donald

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:32:28 -0400

Reply-To:     cosmicat@holeintheweb.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         cosmicat@HOLEINTHEWEB.COM

Subject:      beat-l archive

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bill,

Have you considered burning a CD-ROM of the archives. surely someone

around the beat-l has a cd-rom recorder. a cd holds approximately

700megabytes. this would make for rapid recovery of topics instead of

having to notate, label and search floppies. more permanent medium, too.

just a thought.

 

have a good day,

michael nally

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:55:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Comments on the Estate Battle

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:32 AM 10/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

>> Jan's request to Gerry is part of her will. Her will was recorded and is

>> legal.John Sampas and Jan's ex-husband are trying to get her will changed.

>> If they were trying to get lines deleted from one of Jan's books every

>> writer in the country would be up in arms. But a writer's will appears to

>> interest no one except a few people who were close to her when she died and

>> a few others who have much to gain by getting Nicosia removed as Jan's

>> literary executor.

>> 

> 

>What is Jan's ex-husband's interest in this?  Why would he care one way

>or another, unless maybe the Sampas family is paying him?  Is this what

>is being implied here?

> 

>Also I know from later editionsof OTR that Jan got her name on the

>copyrightr when it was renewed (that must have been another court fight

>with the Sampases I asume)  So she must have benefited finacially from

>sales of OTR the last few years before her death right?  If so, it

>wouldnt be fair of the Sampases to portray her as simply being after the

>money.

> 

>This is all very interesting indeed!

> 

I wish I had Jan Kerouac's money....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:59:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack'l lat letter

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 01:40 PM 10/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Me as well.

> 

>Jon(jrpick@maila.wm.edu)

> 

>At 12:14 PM 10/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>J. Grant: I would be very interested in seeing a copy of the letter by

>Kerouac

>>on his death bed. My e-mail address is: winte030@tc.umn.edu   Thanks, Donald

>> 

>> 

>Hey Jo Grant, can I see that letter too? I need it to show John Sampas so I

can get plenty of new material for The Kerouac Quarterly!

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:02:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:30 PM 10/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

>We dont want to get anone (Bill Gargan etc) associated with the beat list

>sued though.  I take it that the Sampas family has threatened to sue the

>Beat-L list moderators or organizers in the past for inappropriate postings?

> 

No how about a prominent voice on this list who has you all waylaid with

propaganda? He threatened to sue the college and moderator when he was

losing his battle like Hitler in the bunker before he took his life....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:11:55 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      dead people don't have any money

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>I wish I had Jan Kerouac's money....

 

Umm... I'm sorry to break the news to you but Jan kerouac is dead.

 

She doesn't have any money.

 

Unless you are burning some for her now.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:04:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I thought that gerald won that battle,  I certainly didn't get a good

impression of you or phil and not of sampas. that battle showed me a

weary warrior, who had lost his perspective but not his immortal soul.

i never saw the self serving man you tried to make out, unless it was a

fleeting reflection of the magazine editor serving his master.  i saw

and heard a man that struggled against ugly assaults to do what he

thought was right.  I was sickened with the loss of his talents to other

efforts, but i would never fault him for his motives.

 

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> 

> At 04:30 PM 10/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >We dont want to get anone (Bill Gargan etc) associated with the beat list

> >sued though.  I take it that the Sampas family has threatened to sue the

> >Beat-L list moderators or organizers in the past for inappropriate postings?

> >

> No how about a prominent voice on this list who has you all waylaid with

> propaganda? He threatened to sue the college and moderator when he was

> losing his battle like Hitler in the bunker before he took his life....

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:22:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: your mail

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19971018162429.00688cd4@maila.wm.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Jonathan Pickle wrote:

 

> I think a better question is why were you drawn to it.  Why do you feel

> that the youth of today are finding solace in JK and AG and WSB and the

> others?

> 

> Jon

> 

> PS- as far as quotes go.  I can't pick.  I've got about a hundred from OTR

> alone.

> 

I'm 20 and became interested in "beatniks" in HS, although i never posed

as one because i look terrible in a beret :)  I don't remember how I came

across Kerouac, although I thought his name was funny at first, and I

decided I wanted to read him.  My first book was "The Dharma Bums" on tape

I got from the library.  I listened to it every morning while I was in the

shower.  I ended up taking a lot of long showers.  I had already studied

religion in HS and was drawn to buddhism although I already dismissed it

at the time I "read" TDB, but I liked the way Jack wrote.  I read Jack

because his life was more exciting than mine. When I read a book, if it's

good, I live in it.  I like living in Jack's books.  I like that he is

"imperfect".  I like the living by the seat of your pants, float around

America routine.  Hitchhiking is no longer safe in America, especially for

a girl.  America has changed but I can read about it through Jack.  If I

were alive in that era I wouldn't be involved anyhow.  Females were

excluded for the most part, they were just "made".  I like how JK

describes women though.  I don't think On The Road is the best book for

people to read first if they want to get into Kerouac.  Some think it's

boring, just travelling back and forth, back and forth, and it is just

that.  I think a precursor would be The Dharma Bums or The Subterraneans.

If one can get over Jack's lack of punctuation (which I personally love!)

and read these books first then one would enjoy OTR better.

 

Blah blah blah..

is that what you wanted Brian?

BTW, what's your major?

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:53:08 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Comments on the Estate Battle

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 03:36 PM 10/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>> Jan's request to Gerry is part of her will. Her will was recorded and is

>>> legal.John Sampas and Jan's ex-husband are trying to get her will changed.

 

****John Lash and John Sampas have two separate cases. Dont't blend the two.

 

 

 

 

>>> If they were trying to get lines deleted from one of Jan's books every

>>> writer in the country would be up in arms. But a writer's will appears to

>>> interest no one except a few people who were close to her when she died and

>>> a few others who have much to gain by getting Nicosia removed as Jan's

>>> literary executor.

>>> 

>> 

>>What is Jan's ex-husband's interest in this?  Why would he care one way

>>or another, unless maybe the Sampas family is paying him?  Is this what

>>is being implied here?

 

****No, he simply has more say about Jan Kerouac's estate than Gerald

Nicosia. He has a right to assert that authority in a court of law like

anybody else.

 

>>Also I know from later editionsof OTR that Jan got her name on the

>>copyrightr when it was renewed (that must have been another court fight

>>with the Sampases I asume)

 

*****You assume wrong, STOP ASSUMING!

 

So she must have benefited finacially from

>>sales of OTR the last few years before her death right?  If so, it

>>wouldnt be fair of the Sampases to portray her as simply being after the

>>money.

 

****Ans so what if she was? Isn't everybody? It's too bad a bogus lawsuit

had to hasten her death.

 

>> 

>>This is all very interesting indeed!

 

***Indeed!

 

 

>Actually Jan treated he ex very wellin her will. He will receive her

>royalties which will provide him with around $50 thou a year. Seems like a

>lot, but for Jan, with her medical problems, it was very little.

> 

>Her ex, with help from John Sampas, is trying to get Gerry Nicosia removed

>as Jan's lierary executor. They want him out because he is pursuing the law

>suit in St. Pete, FL which will probably prove that Memere's signature on

>the will that left everything ot Stella, was forged.

 

****I think you had better say "allegedly" forged. John Sampas wouldn't know

it was forged, he wasn't there. He last saw Memere and Jack just before they

left for Florida and then went to Florida many years after they were buried.

> 

>Government handwriting experts say the signature is not memere's.

 

*****Yes, the person who said it was a forgery also said Vince Foster's

suicide note was a forgery. It was later proved to be the real thing. No

more Clinton Cabinet conspiracies.

> 

>The fellow who signed the will as the witness to Memere's signing has

>admitted that he did not see her sign the will. Was told she had by John

>Sampas.

> 

******Again! He wasn't there, he would not know the will was a forgery.

 

>If the suit in Florida is successful, the keroauc colletion wil go into a

>major library--probably NY Public of UC Berkeley. Both are wiling to pay a

>mil for the collection.

 

*****Substantiate this......alll you can repeat is hearsay.

 

 This would leave, Jack's nephew, the Sampas segment

>(unless the forgery turns into a criminal charge), and jan's ex, John Lash,

>with a substantial piece of the sale price. enpough for everyone to be

>happy, UNLESS you're sitting on it all and want it all.

> 

>I'l get a copy of the letter ready.

 

yes do that please, you are Mr. Nicosia's puppet. Another lemming going over

the cliff.

> 

>I'll include notes that Gerry Nicosia made when I first sought information

>on it.

> 

****great! Good source you have there Mr. Grant.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:58:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

> 

>Read Jack's last letter, written to his nephew the day before he died. If

>you do not have a copy I'll send you one--even tho I have been threaten

>with law suits by John Sampas over the copy I have.

> 

>j grant

> 

>Lets see....Jack was in the hospital the day before he died, in fact he had

just finished hemorrhaging the day before he died. Jack was capable of

writing or saying anything. His mannerisms and eccentricities led to all

kinds of changes in his thinking. When he said it was raining Greeks is that

the same as when he called Blacks "Niggers" or women "cunts"? He said what

he wanted but it didn't mean he meant every bit of it. You all should do

some intelligent research and come up with your own ideas instead of taking

one person's word for it.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:00:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: dead people don't have any money

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:11 PM 10/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>I wish I had Jan Kerouac's money....

> 

>Umm... I'm sorry to break the news to you but Jan kerouac is dead.

> 

>She doesn't have any money.

> 

>Unless you are burning some for her now.

> 

 

Her money is in trust, there is a lot of it. There "was" a lot of it when

she was living. You know what I meant. Don't be such a dumbass.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:16:29 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

> i'm an eighteen year-old college student just introduced to the world of jack

> kerouac and the beat genre........

 

i'm fairly new too, but i guess i can answer a few questions.

 

> it's been truly interesting to listen to these feuds about jack's estate and

> all, each side of the "debate", such and such.......but.......

> 

> since people like me, and i am sure there are more like me, are not too in

> tune with the whole beat atmosphere; perhaps as a couple of side e-mails

> people could take off of these bloodbaths against each other and get back to

> the heart of the literature...

 

agreed.

 

> some questions i would like to ask Each of you:

> what draws you to this genre?

the style at first. i was amazed how jack kerouac could make one

flowing sentence/paragraph on one main topic for a few pages,

when most people i know would barely make a small sentence.

now i am mostly drawn to the philosphy and meaning of the peotry.

> what is so important about it? in the role of america or the world?

didn't ferlinghetti once say that peotry needs to be dragged out of

the college lecture hall and onto the street? in america it broke the

Wall for the hippies in the sixties. but i think that "beat" is

beyond time, kinda like enlightenment in a way. anyone can achieve it

thru vigilance.

> where is it headed, if anywhere?

we discussed this somewhat in the summer. i think james s. said

something to the effect that  progressive literature is easily found

on the internet. levi's coffehouse book comes to mind.

> how have these authors and poets impacted your lives?

reopened eastern philosphy for me. basically showed me a thru the

looking glass

 

> etc.....etc.......the trivial things that are the most important

> sometimes........otherwise, the legal mumbo jumbo will get old unless

> balanced with another topic....

> 

 

> brian

> 

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:24:10 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: dead people don't have any money

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971019000039.0069509c@pop.pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> At 04:11 PM 10/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

> >>I wish I had Jan Kerouac's money....

> >Umm... I'm sorry to break the news to you but Jan kerouac is dead.

> >She doesn't have any money.

> >Unless you are burning some for her now.

> Her money is in trust, there is a lot of it. There "was" a lot of it when

> she was living. You know what I meant. Don't be such a dumbass.

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

paul

pls calm down - i have a feeling like yr letting things get out of

control. you have a good magazine ( at leats i think so, my only complaint

is that its too short..) and i think that any reading can take something

from yr mag as well as nicosia's book. all sources - no matter what the

subject matter- need to be questioned, in my opinion thats only part of

the job of a responsible researcher. but pls - "lemmings", "dumbass",

"puppet"... people are sometimes critical of the tone of postings from you

& nicosia & chaput - now i can see why. pls remember that there are

people on the other end of those notes and they too can be hurt by

postings on beat-L, just like you can. none of us are infallible...

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:57:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      estate

MIME-Version: 1.0

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As I said before, it would be better for the list if people didn't push

their agenda on the list.  Gerry is concerned with the truth seeing the

light of day.  Others want it squashed.  Maher is now calling people

names and insulting people.  I wish that were not happening.

 

Lash has much to gain by teaming up with Sampas.  If they haved, I am

sure that they would not make that a public fact.  But, the fact is that

Lash is trying to have Gerry removed as Jan's literary executor.  Fact

is that part of the reason is to stop the law suit in Florida that MIGHT

be successful and then would upset Sampas' apple cart.  So, ONE logical

deduction you can make, but do not have to, is that Lash and Sampas are

working together for their mututal benefit and to the detrement of what

Jan's desire was.

 

Maher makes several statements like there was "lots" of money when Jan

was living.  If there was, why wasn't it available to pay her medical

bills and to get her the best possible care.  Why did her royalties get

cut off?  What facts do you have for this Phil?  Is your source of

information Sampas?

 

He in another email questions Jack's intent from the letter.  Why not

let the letter speak for itself?  Why would Sampas threaten Jo Grant?

Why has Sampas threatened the University of Texas and tried to get the

archive librarian fired?  Why has Sampas threatened Bancroft library?

Why don't we hear the whole story here?

 

In another email, he insults both Jo Grant and Gerry Nicosia.  He also

claims that :

 

*****Yes, the person who said it was a forgery also said Vince Foster's

suicide note was a forgery. It was later proved to be the real thing. No

 

more Clinton Cabinet conspiracies.

> 

 

Then he challenges other statments saying their are "hearsay".

 

The other problem I have with Mahre and Chaput is that other than

promote themselves they rarely say anything until Gerry posts to the

list, then they are like mad dogs provoking and making statements are

not able to be substantiated and are clearly in favor of Sampas.  We can

draw a conclusion about who is a puppet or a lemming and it is not Jo

Grant.

 

Mahre also calls some one a dumb ass.

 

And he states that some law suit hastened, I presume Jan's death:

 

 

So she must have benefited finacially from

>>sales of OTR the last few years before her death right?  If so, it

>>wouldnt be fair of the Sampases to portray her as simply being after

the

>>money.

 

****Ans so what if she was? Isn't everybody? It's too bad a bogus

lawsuit

had to hasten her death.

 

What proof do you have that a law suit hastened anyone's death.

 

I personally did not want to see this topic back on the list.  But, I

can not stand back and let this drivel continue unchallenged.   I hope

that it will be made clear to Maher and Chaput that we are going to form

our own opinions.  When Sampas begins to produce something worthy or

respect, then we will.  In the mean time, why not call on Sampas to

publish every letter or communication he has ever issued about Gerry

Nicosia and Jan Kerouac and every communication he has sent to libraries

about Jack's letters or other information, or every bit of information

of every item he has sold out of the estate so that we can see what he

is really doing.  Has he ever said to a publisher, if you publish

Nicosia, I will not let you publish Kerouac?  Has he ever let any

copyrights lapse?  Exactly what has Sampas done for the public?

 

And what has Gerry done that is deserving of the garbage he has to

suffer on this list.

 

I for one say that you, Phil, need to stop this attack on Gerry and if

you want the truth out here, get it out from Sampas and post that, but

quit trying to put this off on us.

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:05:41 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      other lists/Open letter to Gerry

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I am on a number of other lists, Hendrix, Jerry Jeff Walker, Byrds,

Dylan, where people like Roger McGuinn, and other noted authors,

singers, song writers publish email all the time.  They will once in a

while get attacked by some idiot who will claim all Roger ever did was

ride Dylan's coat tails.  But they are never insulted and maligned like

I have seen Gerry done on this list.  I wish it would not happen,

because Gerry is a very valuable source of beat information and we

should all want him on the list, even if we disagree with his point of

view.  I wish that he could let Mahre and Chaput go, but apparently, he

rises to the bait.

 

Gerry:

 

It seems to me that few on the list of are a mind to support or believe

all the garbage and insults thrown in your direction.  I hope you will

assume that we are not going to buy into those insults and will let them

pass.  If you will let it pass, it will become obvious, even to those

who do not like you.   Please let it go.

 

BTW, I meant Paul in my last post instead of Phil.

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:09:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      What the Hendrix list did

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Bill:

 

I don't want to put this on anyone out there, but I will make an

observation.  On the Hendrix list we were having a similiar problem.  We

took up a collection and bought all the necessary equipment to "save"

the list.  Is there anyway we could try to by a bigger drive or one of

those new deals with the mega storage?

 

Just a thought.  But the problem was we had to move it out from the

University and you may not want to do that.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:03:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sarah Sage <yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      The Beats (what else)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I am a senior in Highschool who has just started to read OTR and has been

assigned to write a research paper on Neal Cassady. I read somewhere that

Cassady had a sexual affair with Ginsburg, can anyone verify this for me?

I was also wondering if Cassady and Kerouac left this world on good

terms. Oh, and can my name also be added to the list of Kerouac's last

letter?

And I would also love to hear anything unusual, or something unable to be

found by text about any of the Beats if anyone out there wants to contribute.

 

Sarah

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:12:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia:

 

Thank you for reminding Paul that he and Phil lost that last round and

we remember the drivel they were reduced to at the end.  They might as

well leave that alone.

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> I thought that gerald won that battle,  I certainly didn't get a good

> impression of you or phil and not of sampas. that battle showed me a

> weary warrior, who had lost his perspective but not his immortal soul.

> 

> i never saw the self serving man you tried to make out, unless it was

> a

> fleeting reflection of the magazine editor serving his master.  i saw

> and heard a man that struggled against ugly assaults to do what he

> thought was right.  I was sickened with the loss of his talents to

> other

> efforts, but i would never fault him for his motives.

> 

> Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> >

> > At 04:30 PM 10/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

> > >We dont want to get anone (Bill Gargan etc) associated with the

> beat list

> > >sued though.  I take it that the Sampas family has threatened to

> sue the

> > >Beat-L list moderators or organizers in the past for inappropriate

> postings?

> > >

> > No how about a prominent voice on this list who has you all waylaid

> with

> > propaganda? He threatened to sue the college and moderator when he

> was

> > losing his battle like Hitler in the bunker before he took his

> life....

> > "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our

> virtues."

> >                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:27:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: No Subject

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Or how about the book that started it all: _Go_ by John Cellon Holmes.  Or

a more recent yet-to-be classic _Mountains and Rivers Without End_ by

Snyder.  A good overview that Derek and I have been discussing is _Big Sky

Mind_ ed. Tonkinson.

 

Jon

 

At 04:34 PM 10/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Brian: I'm glad to see that you're entering the world of Beat.  Although I'm

>quite a few decades older than you, my 17-year old son is beginning to

explore

>the Beats.  Let me just suggest some works that I suggested to him and

that you

>might enjoy.  Other than the Beat "classics" like Kerouac's "On the Road,"

>"Dharma Bums," "The Sunterraneans," etc., Ginsberg's "Howl" and Burroughs'

>novels, "Naked Lunch," "Soft Machine" and "Nova Express," you probably

will want

>to read such wonderful poetry as all of Ferlinghetti's "Coney Island of the

>Mind," Gregory Corso's "Army," "Marriage," and countless others.  I don't

have

>time to even scratch the surface right now but I would be happy to try to

make

>other suggestions if you contact me at my e-mail address: winte030@tc.umn.edu

>Happy reading,  Donald

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:36:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Beats (what else)

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9710181744.A12286-0100000@vifa1>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Sarah:

A great short and concise bio on Kerouac to check out would be _Jack

Kerouac Angelheaded Hipster_ by Steve Turner.  It's short and full of

pictures and will give you a overall picture of Jack's life.  Then you can

start hitting the thicker biographies :)

 

On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Sarah Sage wrote:

 

> I am a senior in Highschool who has just started to read OTR and has been

> assigned to write a research paper on Neal Cassady. I read somewhere that

> Cassady had a sexual affair with Ginsburg, can anyone verify this for me?

> I was also wondering if Cassady and Kerouac left this world on good

> terms. Oh, and can my name also be added to the list of Kerouac's last

> letter?

> And I would also love to hear anything unusual, or something unable to be

> found by text about any of the Beats if anyone out there wants to contribute.

> 

> Sarah

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:41:41 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Big Sky Mind

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I recently purchased Big Sky Mind and have begun reading it.  I bought

it to pick up some of Hal Norse's work.  I understand that Hal has some

copies of Beat Hotel that he wants to sell and will personalize them.

If someone in San Francisco can help him out, you ought to get in touch

with him.  I am trying to hook him up with Jerry Cimino or Jo Grant.

 

I would think that Big Sky Mind would be a good book to discuss.  It is

edited by Carole Tonkinson.  It contains works by Diane di Prima, Joanne

Kyger, Lenore Kandel, and Anne Waldman.  Therefore it has several women

to discuss as well.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:44:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: beat

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>some questions i would like to ask Each of you:

>what draws you to this genre?

>what is so important about it? in the role of america or the world?

>where is it headed, if anywhere?

>how have these authors and poets impacted your lives?

 

     hi and welcome..

     here's my slant on the importance of beat writing, primarily

Jack's writing.  As a writer the main importance of Jack's work to me

is as a catalyst for pushing literature forward.  Just as Jack drew on

his literary heroes and took writing to the next step, that's the

responsibility of my generation of writers, any generation of writers.

Jack took a jump in lit probably unparalleled by any other writer, and

brought lit to a stage in its development comparable to the advances in

the other arts during his time, especially music, and the visual arts.

this is around the time that glass made the transition from large

industrial production and found its way into small studio production

and its entrance into the sculptural world beginning to break the thin

boundary between "craft" and "art."  Bop and Jazz are the lifeblood of

the music scene.  new writers now have to use his advances as a

stepping stone to boost lit to a new level.

     jack's message of love and beauty and his influence on the

introduction of buddhist thought to the western world are wonderful.

it's amazing how much of culture right now can be traced to the beats.

many of the messages have become twisted and trivialized, but the

influence id there.  just look the recent snowballing interest in the

beats, they're everywhere, especially with allen and bill dying just

recently.

     i'm kinda burnt out right now, there's so much more i'd like to

say.  I could never say enough though; jack's "importance" is endless.

I'd suggest reading Memory Babe: A Critical Biography of Jack Kerouac

by Gerry Nicosia, who is on the list.  there is no better bio.  it

reads much like a novel, very compelling, and will give you all the

info you need to get up to date on most of what gets discussed around

here.

     as far as favorite books, that's hard... but i'd say if you

haven't read dharma bums yet, do.. also, if you really want to throw

your brain for a loop, read Burroughs' Naked Lunch... it's like

dreaming...

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:48:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Dana and Brian

 

I think that Subterraneans is too revolutionary in its approach to lit to

begin on that on.  TDB is good - I read it second.  I think that OTR is a

good jumping off point - I did.  Don't try anything like OAM or VOC.  Maybe

start with VOD.

 

BTW I think most of the black wearing, beret wearing, gotee and all was

anything but Hollywood creating an image.  JK didn't go for all that.  He

didn't give a ****.  In fact I don't think most of them did.

 

Also where are you both going to school.  If you're anywhere close we

should get together.

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:41:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: NYU Beat Conference Video Tapes

In-Reply-To:  <971017195154_1622058908@emout05.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

does anyone else find it ironic that on tape two of the NYU conference

tapes they discuss jan kerouac? they just threw her out and then they

discuss her importance!?!

 

the only other estate comment i really feel like making is this:

all that we have been able to agree upon during the course of this thread

is that jack himself would not have liked what's going on. we should

contemplate what has been said in light of this.

 

two cents is probably more than that's worth.   :)

 

peace

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE

"Someone must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having

done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:58:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: your mail

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19971018214830.0069aaf8@maila.wm.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I'm in Kansas City at the University of Missouri

 

On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Jonathan Pickle wrote:

 

> Dana and Brian

> 

> I think that Subterraneans is too revolutionary in its approach to lit to

> begin on that on.  TDB is good - I read it second.  I think that OTR is a

> good jumping off point - I did.  Don't try anything like OAM or VOC.  Maybe

> start with VOD.

> 

> BTW I think most of the black wearing, beret wearing, gotee and all was

> anything but Hollywood creating an image.  JK didn't go for all that.  He

> didn't give a ****.  In fact I don't think most of them did.

> 

> Also where are you both going to school.  If you're anywhere close we

> should get together.

> 

> Jon

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:33:48 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I take it that the Sampas family has threatened to sue the

> Beat-L list moderators or organizers in the past for inappropriate postings?

 

 

Richard,

 

It wasn't the Sampas side, it was Gerry Nicosia threatening to send in

the FBI.  We were all delighted with the idea of the

FBI going through all the old posts, sort of warms the old beat spirit.

This is the sort of thing that makes so many of us hate this estate war

nonsense so much.  The whole thing is about a good point, but no one

here fights fair, everyone uses selective evidence and loves to insult.

An ugly, ugly business.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:43:05 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sarah Sage <yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      naked lunch

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I recently wathched a video in class on W.S.Burroughs, and he talked

about his book "Naked Lunch" and how it was put together randomly from

different bits and pieces of his life. I was wondering if it is sort-of

like Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse five". I would love to hear anyone and

everyone's opinion on this.

 

Keep Trekken,

 

Sarah

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:10:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: estate

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Another rabble-rouser, lawyers are like buzzards circling the dead...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:30:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: other lists/Open letter to Gerry

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:05 PM 10/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I am on a number of other lists, Hendrix, Jerry Jeff Walker, Byrds,

>Dylan, where people like Roger McGuinn, and other noted authors,

>singers, song writers publish email all the time.  They will once in a

>while get attacked by some idiot who will claim all Roger ever did was

>ride Dylan's coat tails.  But they are never insulted and maligned like

>I have seen Gerry done on this list.  I wish it would not happen,

>because Gerry is a very valuable source of beat information and we

>should all want him on the list, even if we disagree with his point of

>view.  I wish that he could let Mahre and Chaput go, but apparently, he

>rises to the bait.

> 

>Gerry:

> 

>It seems to me that few on the list of are a mind to support or believe

>all the garbage and insults thrown in your direction.  I hope you will

>assume that we are not going to buy into those insults and will let them

>pass.  If you will let it pass, it will become obvious, even to those

>who do not like you.   Please let it go.

 

 

yes yes...he may win the equivalent of the People's Choice Awards but he

will not win in court. That is all that matters. I, for one, am honored to

be in the minority who does not buy into these bogus lawsuits. So what IF

John Sampas gave me some input. Who gave you yours? All you do is write

things, but you show nothing. All you can do is repeat things, but, if you

were any kind of lawyer you would know that proof beyond a reasonable doubt

is all that counts my friend. You can believe whomever you want to but at

least be able to produce acuuracies and facts. Just taking someone's word

for it is not enough. You say all we (I and Phil Chaput) come on for is to

attack Gerald Nicosia. Well, even though this claim and observation is not

true, I've been on a number of times and I have a web site and newsletter

that is constructive in the way of Kerouac scholarship...do I have to bend

to the wills of the list to win your favoritism? I could care less if you

ever buy one newsletter from me, I am not doing it for those who worry about

such things as a silly lawsuit in Florida and New Mexico. My objective which

will reach far into the future is to provide a forum for serious Kerouac

scholarship.

  What I will defend is when liars and anatagonistic provocateurs bend and

shape the wants and wishes of the deceased into a malleable untruth that

keeps growing from a dormant malignancy into a full-blown cancer on those

who perform constructive things (i.e. my quarterly, Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac, Sampas' preparing and publishing six books to date under his

executorship)...what has Gerald Nicosia done besides publish his biography

(one I have told more than once to him that it is a model of scholarship)?

Once again, you are entitled to believe what you want but don't think for

once that things which are questionable and known by some as an all-out lie

will not go unchecked. yes, John Sampas is my friend, is there something

wrong with having friends? You, R. Bentz Kirby, how well do you know Gerald

Nicosia? what is the basis for your stoic fixture upon his idealisms?

Perhaps we can applaud Mr. Nicosia for his passions and convictions, that I

will give him but what do you and Jo Grant have under your belt that you can

call your own? I know in some regards casually, and in others definitely

what caliber are some of these lies and bogus attacks perpetuated upon the

Kerouac Estate. Have some courage and make up your own minds...With disgust,

Paul Maher Jr.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:17:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Jack'l lat letter

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971018225929.00697d1c@pop.pipeline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

my, my, my.  are we feeling vindictive again?

i thought that was over with?

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE

"Someone must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having

done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial

 

On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

> At 01:40 PM 10/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >Me as well.

> >

> >Jon(jrpick@maila.wm.edu)

> >

> >At 12:14 PM 10/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >>J. Grant: I would be very interested in seeing a copy of the letter by

> >Kerouac

> >>on his death bed. My e-mail address is: winte030@tc.umn.edu   Thanks, Donald

> >>

> >>

> >Hey Jo Grant, can I see that letter too? I need it to show John Sampas so I

> can get plenty of new material for The Kerouac Quarterly!

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:30:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Comments: To: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971018235853.006980cc@pop.pipeline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

unless, of course, that one person happens to be jack kerouac, the one and

only person who can speak for jack kerouac.  correct me if i'm wrong, but

did you just tell us all to disregard jack's last letter in favor of us

all soming up with our own conclusions?  please, point me back into the

direction of logic!  sick or not, angry or not, what he said is what he

said.  if i can have his last words, i would rather have those than

formulate what i think his last words should have been.

 

sincerely,

brian m. kirchhoff

 

 On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

> > >Read Jack's last letter, written to his nephew the day before he

> died. If >you do not have a copy I'll send you one--even tho I have been

> threaten >with law suits by John Sampas over the copy I have.  > >j

> grant > >Lets see....Jack was in the hospital the day before he died, in

> fact he had just finished hemorrhaging the day before he died. Jack was

> capable of writing or saying anything. His mannerisms and eccentricities

> led to all kinds of changes in his thinking. When he said it was raining

> Greeks is that the same as when he called Blacks "Niggers" or women

> "cunts"? He said what he wanted but it didn't mean he meant every bit of

> it. You all should do some intelligent research and come up with your

> own ideas instead of taking one person's word for it.  "We cannot well

> do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:34:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: other lists/Open letter to Gerry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

Paul:

 

If you don't like what someone says, or if they disagree, just make a

personal attack on them and insult them.  This isn't court and I'm not

here as a lawyer, just here to learn from other list members.  Why not

give this a rest?  Or at least take it off list.

 

> yes yes...he may win the equivalent of the People's Choice Awards but

> he

> will not win in court. That is all that matters. I, for one, am

> honored to

> be in the minority who does not buy into these bogus lawsuits. So what

> IF

> John Sampas gave me some input. Who gave you yours? All you do is

> write

> things, but you show nothing. All you can do is repeat things, but, if

> you

> were any kind of lawyer you would know that proof beyond a reasonable

> doubt

> is all that counts my friend. You can believe whomever you want to but

> at

> least be able to produce acuuracies and facts. Just taking someone's

> word

> for it is not enough. You say all we (I and Phil Chaput) come on for

> is to

> attack Gerald Nicosia. Well, even though this claim and observation is

> not

> true, I've been on a number of times and I have a web site and

> newsletter

> that is constructive in the way of Kerouac scholarship...do I have to

> bend

> to the wills of the list to win your favoritism? I could care less if

> you

> ever buy one newsletter from me, I am not doing it for those who worry

> about

> such things as a silly lawsuit in Florida and New Mexico. My objective

> which

> will reach far into the future is to provide a forum for serious

> Kerouac

> scholarship.

>   What I will defend is when liars and anatagonistic provocateurs bend

> and

> shape the wants and wishes of the deceased into a malleable untruth

> that

> keeps growing from a dormant malignancy into a full-blown cancer on

> those

> who perform constructive things (i.e. my quarterly, Lowell Celebrates

> Kerouac, Sampas' preparing and publishing six books to date under his

> executorship)...what has Gerald Nicosia done besides publish his

> biography

> (one I have told more than once to him that it is a model of

> scholarship)?

> Once again, you are entitled to believe what you want but don't think

> for

> once that things which are questionable and known by some as an

> all-out lie

> will not go unchecked. yes, John Sampas is my friend, is there

> something

> wrong with having friends? You, R. Bentz Kirby, how well do you know

> Gerald

> Nicosia? what is the basis for your stoic fixture upon his idealisms?

> Perhaps we can applaud Mr. Nicosia for his passions and convictions,

> that I

> will give him but what do you and Jo Grant have under your belt that

> you can

> call your own? I know in some regards casually, and in others

> definitely

> what caliber are some of these lies and bogus attacks perpetuated upon

> the

> Kerouac Estate. Have some courage and make up your own minds...With

> disgust,

> Paul Maher Jr.

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our

> virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 00:10:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: other lists/Open letter to Gerry

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

My comments to Mr. Nicosia have been directed to him off the list. I have

been away from the computer all day when I was at work, meanwhile,  you guys

have just kept on talking about this very same issue. Your right. Enough!

The judge in New Mexico will have the last word.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:50:59 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

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Brian M. Kirchhoff wrote:

> 

> unless, of course, that one person happens to be jack kerouac, the one and

> only person who can speak for jack kerouac.  correct me if i'm wrong, but

> did you just tell us all to disregard jack's last letter in favor of us

> all soming up with our own conclusions?  please, point me back into the

> direction of logic!  sick or not, angry or not, what he said is what he

> said.  if i can have his last words, i would rather have those than

> formulate what i think his last words should have been.

> 

> sincerely,

> brian m. kirchhoff

> 

 

 

Brian,

 

This sounds logical and it would be nice if it were true.  As I

understand it, and I don't claim to be an expert, the problem is not

with Jack's will but with Gabrielle's. Benz or someone more knowledgable

is welcome to correct me, but as I understand it Jack's will is not the

issue.  Whatever his last letter says, it is not a will and testament,

and as someone noted in one of his more rational moments, Jack's

statements are all over the map.  Jack's letter may or may not express

what he really wanted to happen.  Unfortunately he never dealt with

these matters in a way that would have avoided the current mess.

 

Bentz feels that Mr. Nicosia won the last round.  I didn't think anyone

won.  Certainly no one covered themselves with glory.  The courts will

ultimately decide what happens.  I hope, as I suspect everyone involved

does, that Jack's literary remains are available and well taken care

of.  Unfortunately we here on the list are just spectators.  Gerry

Nicosia, Mr. Lash, or John Sampas ( of some combination of the above)

will win in court someday--then we will see who does what they claim

they will do.  Everyone in this fight has a vested interest in it.  Most

of us have only the interest of being lovers of Kerouac's work.  For the

principles this  is a job.  There is much money and power involved. I

suspect that as it almost always is when money and power are involved

that self interest colors peoples ideas of what the truth is.  I don't

see any white knights here. Others do.  I sincerely hope they are right

and I am wrong.

 

J. Stauffer

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 00:54:51 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Neal Cassady material...

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Sarah,

 

        If you havent yet found your way to it, go to Levi Asher's Beat

site, Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

 

        He has several great pages that record interviews he did with Neal's

children, John, Pat and ...(forget the third daughter). You'll find some

interesting stories about their Dad.

 

        Antoine

 

                ******************

 

>I am a senior in Highschool who has just started to read OTR and has been

>assigned to write a research paper on Neal Cassady. I read somewhere that

>Cassady had a sexual affair with Ginsburg, can anyone verify this for me?

>I was also wondering if Cassady and Kerouac left this world on good

>terms. Oh, and can my name also be added to the list of Kerouac's last

>letter?

>And I would also love to hear anything unusual, or something unable to be

>found by text about any of the Beats if anyone out there wants to contribute.

> 

>Sarah

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 01:29:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

 

In a message dated 97-10-18 21:49:35 EDT, you write:

 

<< Dana and Brian

 

 I think that Subterraneans is too revolutionary in its approach to lit to

 begin on that on.

what makes it revolutionary?

 

 Also where are you both going to school.  If you're anywhere close we

 should get together.

oxford of emory in georgia......wher you located?

 

 Jon >>

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:44:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Mr. Maher has gone off the deep end

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On October 18 Paul Maher wrote:

 

>****John Lash [Jan Kerouac's ex-husband] and John Sampas have two separate

cases. Dont't blend the two.

... he [Lash]simply has more say about Jan Kerouac's estate than Gerald

>Nicosia. He has a right to assert that authority in a court of law like

>anybody else.

>>> [quote by Joe Grant:] "Also I know from later editionsof OTR that Jan

got her name on the

>>>copyrightr when it was renewed (that must have been another court fight

>>>with the Sampases I asume)"

>*****You assume wrong, STOP ASSUMING!

>[in response to Joe Grant's assertion that Jan was not only "after the

money"]: ****Ans so what if she was? Isn't everybody? It's too bad a bogus

lawsuit

>had to hasten her death.

>*****Yes, the person who said it [Memere's will] was a forgery also said

Vince Foster's

>suicide note was a forgery. It was later proved to be the real thing. No

>more Clinton Cabinet conspiracies.

>... you [Joe Grant] are Mr. Nicosia's puppet. Another lemming going over

>the cliff.

 

        Dear Beat List readers, Mr. Maher churns out so many untruths and so

much disinformation so rapidly that I simply cannot keep up with him.  In

fact, he seems to do so on a full-time basis, which makes me wonder who is

paying his salary.

        This last post of his, besides being riddled with errors, smacks of

some form of mental imbalance.  Quite frankly, I have never read anything

quite so crazy in my life.  Crazy or not, he should not have the right to go

on endlessly insulting both live people, like Joe Grant and myself, and dead

people, like Jan Kerouac.  At some point, I hope Bill Gargan will inform Mr.

Maher that such continued irrational, abusive posts will result in his

exclusion from the Beat-List.  Perhaps I am wrong to say this, and if others

feel I am, please say so.  We all love the openness of the internet

community but I think some limits of human decency need to be enforced.  Jan

Kerouac was an exquisite writer in her own right, a courageous woman who

held on during four years of nonstop kidney dialysis to continue fighting to

save her father's literary archive, and she died without a penny to her

name.  In fact, she died owing something like sixty thousand dollars.  For

Mr. Maher to insult her in her grave, by implying she was chasing money with

a "bogus lawsuit," is despicable in the worst degree.

        To make factual errors is one thing, we all do that.  But to

knowingly print untruths is a crime in my book.  And Mr. Maher commits that

crime over and over again.  He is obviously on a daily speaking basis with

Mr. Sampas.  Yet again and again he prints falsehoods that his friend Mr.

Sampas knows the truth about.

        Let me give you just a few examples:

        Contrary to what PAM says, Mr. Lash and Mr. Sampas's legal dealings

are intricately connected.  Just a few days ago, Mr. Lash's lawyers made a

public statement that Mr. Lash and Mr. Sampas had made a financial deal,

whose terms were "confidential."  At the hearing in Florida last Monday,

where I won against Mr. Sampas, Mr. Sampas's lawyers were in attendance side

by side with Mr. Lash's lawyers.

        Contrary to what PAM says, Mr. Lash does not have "more to say"

about Jan's estate than I do.  We were made co-executors, but with SEPARATE

AREAS OF RESPONSIBILITY.  Jan's will put me in charge of all her literary

rights and properties, Mr. Lash was to handle everything else (bills, taxes,

etc.).

        Contrary to what PAM says, Jan Kerouac had to threaten the Sampases

with legal action for three years before they finally agreed (knowing they

would lose in court) to pay her the royalties on Jack's books that were

mandated by federal copyright law.

        Contrary to what PAM says, Ron Rice, the handwriting authority who

calls Memere's will "an obvious forgery," was never part of a "Clinton

conspiracy" and he never said Vince Foster's suicide note was a forgery.  In

fact, his firm has worked for the CIA, the Navy, and many other government

organizations, and is highly accredited.

        Contrary to what PAM says, Joe Grant is not my "puppet."  I have

never had any financial dealings with Mr. Grant.  I have never even met him.

I do admire the work he has done over several decades as an underground

publisher.

        What concerns me here is that I do not have the unlimited time to

keep refuting these crazy claims as fast as Mr. Maher can churn them out.

And once I stop refuting them, it is possible newcomers to the list and

young people with little background in this complex case may believe they

are listening to an expert, "Paul Maher of the Kerouac Quarterly," as he

styles himself.

        There is a serious problem here, and I call on others to propose

solutions.  I am not trying to play dictator here.  But I also do not

believe Mr. Maher should forever be allowed to fill this list with

disinformation that he knows is false, just because it will keep him in good

stead with Mr. Sampas and allow him to continue getting original material

from Mr. Sampas for his new little magazine.

        Any thoughts?

        Respectfully, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:00:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: estate

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At 08:57 PM 10/18/97 -0400, Bentz Kirby wrote:

>Lash has much to gain by teaming up with Sampas.  If they haved, I am

>sure that they would not make that a public fact. ... ONE logical

>deduction you can make, but do not have to, is that Lash and Sampas are

>working together for their mututal benefit and to the detrement of what

>Jan's desire was.

> 

Dear Bentz and Beat List readers:

        We do not have to make any deductions.  The lawyers for John Lash

[Jan Kerouac's ex-husband] have stated in their appellate brief that Mr.

Lash and Mr. Sampas have made a financial deal whose terms are "confidential."

        --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 02:13:48 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

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I'm at W&M if any one is anywhere near there - don't have a car though.

Was born with feet, so I use them to the max.

 

The Subterraneans was revolutionary in that JK took his stream of

consciousness/Modern Prose/ Spontaneous poetics style into his later and

most developed stage.  OTR was in his middle stage where he was coming into

his voice.  It's not revolutionary in the sense that he's acting like Abbie

Hoffman or anything like that, but more in the style.  I read TSub. as my

third book in 2 mad hours while hi.  I understood maybe 60 percent of it,

but it wasn't until I went back to read it after being exposed to T&C and

VOD and more easy going works that I "got it"  DOn't get me wrong - VOD is

written in JK's later stages, but I don't find it as trying to comprehend

through the myriad of his thoughts.

 

Jon

 

At 01:29 AM 10/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-10-18 21:49:35 EDT, you write:

> 

><< Dana and Brian

> 

> I think that Subterraneans is too revolutionary in its approach to lit to

> begin on that on.

>what makes it revolutionary?

> 

> Also where are you both going to school.  If you're anywhere close we

> should get together.

>oxford of emory in georgia......wher you located?

> 

> Jon >>

>brian

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:19:13 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

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At 07:33 PM 10/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>I take it that the Sampas family has threatened to sue the

>> Beat-L list moderators or organizers in the past for inappropriate postings?

> 

> 

>Richard,

> 

>It wasn't the Sampas side, it was Gerry Nicosia threatening to send in

>the FBI.

> 

Dear Beat List Readers,

       Once again I am compelled to correct seriously damaging errors about

myself.  I never "sent in the FBI" against the Beat list.  I did report to

the FBI that Mr. Maher had sent me a private threat, not on the Beat List,

but directly to my private email address.  Mr. Maher is a convicted felon

and he works closely with Mr. Sampas, a man whose family stands to lose

several million dollars if I successfully prosecute Jan Kerouac's lawsuit

against his family.  Under those circumstances, and having a family and

young child to protect, I thought it prudent to report Maher's threat to the

FBI.  I never suggested to the FBI that the Beat List should be

investigated.  I would have no reason to.  Mr. Gargan and I have remained on

good terms since my first entry on the list last April.  But we have

discussed the seriousness of people, like Rod Anstee, for instance, making

bogus charges on the list--that I had sold papers stolen from Columbia

University to U Mass, Lowell, for example--a charge that had absolutely no

foundation in reality, since the papers he mentioned were not even at U

Mass, Lowell.  We all want an open list, but do we want a list where one

person can knowingly bring erroneous, damaging charges against others on the

list, and then come back to do so again and again?

        Respectfully, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 01:24:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: other lists/Open letter to Gerry

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971019041043.00698f40@pop.pipeline.com>

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>My comments to Mr. Nicosia have been directed to him off the list. I have

>been away from the computer all day when I was at work, meanwhile,  you guys

>have just kept on talking about this very same issue. Your right. Enough!

>The judge in New Mexico will have the last word.

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

 

MAYBE the judge in New Mexico will have the last word..

 

It's very possible the judge in New Mexico will have the second to the last

word.

 

1st: The WORD in New Mexico

2nd:The WORD in Florida.

 

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 02:25:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Jon B. Pearlstone" <THYE@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: What the Hendrix list did

 

how do you get on the hendrix list?  Are there other sixties related lists

out there?  If you know of any please advise and include e-mail address to

sign up.

 

Thanks!

 

Jon Pearlstone

 

THYE@AOL.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 02:38:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aviva Vogel <Aviva99999@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Assistance Sorely Needed

 

After a 30-minute search thru all my listserv files, I can't find the

instructions for unsubscribing.

 

How do I unsubscribe from Beat-L?

 

Thanks to anyone who takes time out of their day to tell me!  Aviva

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 02:40:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To:  <344991B2.6727@pacbell.net>

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i agree with your observations, however, my only real point here is that

it seems as though paul was trying to disclaim WHATEVER jack said simply

based on his questionable state of physical and mental health during his

last days. i am not confusing this with his will, rather, i am curious of

his last intentions. i don't want this letter delegitimatized based on

paul's assumptions of jack's mental well being.

 

i hope that makes sense. (especially delegitimatized which probably isn't

a word.)

 

peace.  i'm tired.

 

brian m. kirchhoff

 

 On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, James

Stauffer wrote:

 

> Brian M. Kirchhoff wrote:

> >

> > unless, of course, that one person happens to be jack kerouac, the one and

> > only person who can speak for jack kerouac.  correct me if i'm wrong, but

> > did you just tell us all to disregard jack's last letter in favor of us

> > all soming up with our own conclusions?  please, point me back into the

> > direction of logic!  sick or not, angry or not, what he said is what he

> > said.  if i can have his last words, i would rather have those than

> > formulate what i think his last words should have been.

> >

> > sincerely,

> > brian m. kirchhoff

> >

> 

> 

> Brian,

> 

> This sounds logical and it would be nice if it were true.  As I

> understand it, and I don't claim to be an expert, the problem is not

> with Jack's will but with Gabrielle's. Benz or someone more knowledgable

> is welcome to correct me, but as I understand it Jack's will is not the

> issue.  Whatever his last letter says, it is not a will and testament,

> and as someone noted in one of his more rational moments, Jack's

> statements are all over the map.  Jack's letter may or may not express

> what he really wanted to happen.  Unfortunately he never dealt with

> these matters in a way that would have avoided the current mess.

> 

> Bentz feels that Mr. Nicosia won the last round.  I didn't think anyone

> won.  Certainly no one covered themselves with glory.  The courts will

> ultimately decide what happens.  I hope, as I suspect everyone involved

> does, that Jack's literary remains are available and well taken care

> of.  Unfortunately we here on the list are just spectators.  Gerry

> Nicosia, Mr. Lash, or John Sampas ( of some combination of the above)

> will win in court someday--then we will see who does what they claim

> they will do.  Everyone in this fight has a vested interest in it.  Most

> of us have only the interest of being lovers of Kerouac's work.  For the

> principles this  is a job.  There is much money and power involved. I

> suspect that as it almost always is when money and power are involved

> that self interest colors peoples ideas of what the truth is.  I don't

> see any white knights here. Others do.  I sincerely hope they are right

> and I am wrong.

> 

> J. Stauffer

> > >

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:41:40 +0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         FENG Yan <yfeng@PUBLIC1.TPT.TJ.CN>

Subject:      =?gb2312?B?ytW8/sjLICAgICBSZTogb3RoZXIgbGlzdHMvT3BlbiBsZXR0ZXIgdG8gR2Vy?=

              =?gb2312?B?cnk=?=

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Stop, stop, stop.

Back to JK, back to road

Ciao

Yan

 ----

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

Paul:

 

If you don't like what someone says, or if they disagree, just make a

personal attack on them and insult them.  This isn't court and I'm not

here as a lawyer, just here to learn from other list members.  Why not

give this a rest?  Or at least take it off list.

 

> yes yes...he may win the equivalent of the People's Choice Awards but

> he

> will not win in court. That is all that matters. I, for one, am

> honored to

> be in the minority who does not buy into these bogus lawsuits. So what

> IF

> John Sampas gave me some input. Who gave you yours? All you do is

> write

> things, but you show nothing. All you can do is repeat things, but, if

> you

> were any kind of lawyer you would know that proof beyond a reasonable

> doubt

> is all that counts my friend. You can believe whomever you want to but

> at

> least be able to produce acuuracies and facts. Just taking someone's

> word

> for it is not enough. You say all we (I and Phil Chaput) come on for

> is to

> attack Gerald Nicosia. Well, even though this claim and observation is

> not

> true, I've been on a number of times and I have a web site and

> newsletter

> that is constructive in the way of Kerouac scholarship...do I have to

> bend

> to the wills of the list to win your favoritism? I could care less if

> you

> ever buy one newsletter from me, I am not doing it for those who worry

> about

> such things as a silly lawsuit in Florida and New Mexico. My objective

> which

> will reach far into the future is to provide a forum for serious

> Kerouac

> scholarship.

>   What I will defend is when liars and anatagonistic provocateurs bend

> and

> shape the wants and wishes of the deceased into a malleable untruth

> that

> keeps growing from a dormant malignancy into a full-blown cancer on

> those

> who perform constructive things (i.e. my quarterly, Lowell Celebrates

> Kerouac, Sampas' preparing and publishing six books to date under his

> executorship)...what has Gerald Nicosia done besides publish his

> biography

> (one I have told more than once to him that it is a model of

> scholarship)?

> Once again, you are entitled to believe what you want but don't think

> for

> once that things which are questionable and known by some as an

> all-out lie

> will not go unchecked. yes, John Sampas is my friend, is there

> something

> wrong with having friends? You, R. Bentz Kirby, how well do you know

> Gerald

> Nicosia? what is the basis for your stoic fixture upon his idealisms?

> Perhaps we can applaud Mr. Nicosia for his passions and convictions,

> that I

> will give him but what do you and Jo Grant have under your belt that

> you can

> call your own? I know in some regards casually, and in others

> definitely

> what caliber are some of these lies and bogus attacks perpetuated upon

> the

> Kerouac Estate. Have some courage and make up your own minds...With

> disgust,

> Paul Maher Jr.

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our

> virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

 

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<P>Stop, stop, stop.</P>

 

<P>Back to JK, back to road

 

<P>Ciao

 

<P>Yan</P>

 ----<BR>

<FONT size=3D2>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:<BR>

<BR>

Paul:<BR>

<BR>

If you don't like what someone says, or if they disagree, just make =

a<BR>

personal attack on them and insult them.&nbsp; This isn't court and I'm =

not<BR>

here as a lawyer, just here to learn from other list members.&nbsp; Why =

not<BR>

give this a rest?&nbsp; Or at least take it off list.<BR>

<BR>

&gt; yes yes...he may win the equivalent of the People's Choice Awards =

but<BR>

&gt; he<BR>

&gt; will not win in court. That is all that matters. I, for one, am<BR>

&gt; honored to<BR>

&gt; be in the minority who does not buy into these bogus lawsuits. So =

what<BR>

&gt; IF<BR>

&gt; John Sampas gave me some input. Who gave you yours? All you do =

is<BR>

&gt; write<BR>

&gt; things, but you show nothing. All you can do is repeat things, but, =

if<BR>

&gt; you<BR>

&gt; were any kind of lawyer you would know that proof beyond a =

reasonable<BR>

&gt; doubt<BR>

&gt; is all that counts my friend. You can believe whomever you want to =

but<BR>

&gt; at<BR>

&gt; least be able to produce acuuracies and facts. Just taking =

someone's<BR>

&gt; word<BR>

&gt; for it is not enough. You say all we (I and Phil Chaput) come on =

for<BR>

&gt; is to<BR>

&gt; attack Gerald Nicosia. Well, even though this claim and observation =

is<BR>

&gt; not<BR>

&gt; true, I've been on a number of times and I have a web site and<BR>

&gt; newsletter<BR>

&gt; that is constructive in the way of Kerouac scholarship...do I have =

to<BR>

&gt; bend<BR>

&gt; to the wills of the list to win your favoritism? I could care less =

if<BR>

&gt; you<BR>

&gt; ever buy one newsletter from me, I am not doing it for those who =

worry<BR>

&gt; about<BR>

&gt; such things as a silly lawsuit in Florida and New Mexico. My =

objective<BR>

&gt; which<BR>

&gt; will reach far into the future is to provide a forum for =

serious<BR>

&gt; Kerouac<BR>

&gt; scholarship.<BR>

&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; What I will defend is when liars and anatagonistic =

provocateurs=20

bend<BR>

&gt; and<BR>

&gt; shape the wants and wishes of the deceased into a malleable =

untruth<BR>

&gt; that<BR>

&gt; keeps growing from a dormant malignancy into a full-blown cancer =

on<BR>

&gt; those<BR>

&gt; who perform constructive things (i.e. my quarterly, Lowell =

Celebrates<BR>

&gt; Kerouac, Sampas' preparing and publishing six books to date under =

his<BR>

&gt; executorship)...what has Gerald Nicosia done besides publish =

his<BR>

&gt; biography<BR>

&gt; (one I have told more than once to him that it is a model of<BR>

&gt; scholarship)?<BR>

&gt; Once again, you are entitled to believe what you want but don't =

think<BR>

&gt; for<BR>

&gt; once that things which are questionable and known by some as an<BR>

&gt; all-out lie<BR>

&gt; will not go unchecked. yes, John Sampas is my friend, is there<BR>

&gt; something<BR>

&gt; wrong with having friends? You, R. Bentz Kirby, how well do you =

know<BR>

&gt; Gerald<BR>

&gt; Nicosia? what is the basis for your stoic fixture upon his =

idealisms?<BR>

&gt; Perhaps we can applaud Mr. Nicosia for his passions and =

convictions,<BR>

&gt; that I<BR>

&gt; will give him but what do you and Jo Grant have under your belt =

that<BR>

&gt; you can<BR>

&gt; call your own? I know in some regards casually, and in others<BR>

&gt; definitely<BR>

&gt; what caliber are some of these lies and bogus attacks perpetuated =

upon<BR>

&gt; the<BR>

&gt; Kerouac Estate. Have some courage and make up your own =

minds...With<BR>

&gt; disgust,<BR>

&gt; Paul Maher Jr.<BR>

&gt; &quot;We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to =

our<BR>

&gt; virtues.&quot;<BR>

&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=

sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=

p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=

;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20

Henry David Thoreau<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

--<BR>

<BR>

Peace,<BR>

<BR>

Bentz<BR>

<A href=3D"mailto:bocelts@scsn.net">bocelts@scsn.net</A><BR>

<A=20

href=3D"http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw">http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw<=

/A><BR>

</FONT></FONT>

</BODY></HTML>

 

------=_NextPart_000_01BCDCA5.7DF42C80--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 02:36:29 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthias_Schneider <magrobi@MAIL.ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>

Subject:      =?iso-8859-1?Q?I=B4d?= like to signoff.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Hello,

 

I=B4d like to signoff from the list.

 

Thanks and all the best!

 

Matthias (Germany)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 09:57:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew L Potter <mlpotter@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU>

Subject:      wsb

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

anyone have directions for making burroughs'

inventions?  I'd be grateful.thanks. matt

 

mlpotter@student.umass.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:27:41 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> James Stauffer wrote:

 

>  Everyone in this fight has a vested interest in it.  Most

> of us have only the interest of being lovers of Kerouac's work.  For

> the

> principles this  is a job.  There is much money and power involved. I

> suspect that as it almost always is when money and power are involved

> that self interest colors peoples ideas of what the truth is.  I don't

> see any white knights here. Others do.  I sincerely hope they are right

> and I am wrong.

 

Nothing new ever comes out of rehashing all of this on the list.  We

hear exactly the same arguments over and over and the same accusations

over and over. As James points out so well we are lovers of the

literature.  I don't see any white knights here either.  The only win is

going to take place in a courtroom.  Phil hasn't posted regarding this in

days.  Paul stated in his last post he wants to take it off the list.

Bentz wants to take it off the list.  That leaves one person left to

say he will take it off the list.  Let's get back to

discussing literature.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:08:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         seth hodes <shodes@HOME.COM>

Organization: @Home Network

Subject:      Re: Assistance Sorely Needed

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I'd like to knoww how to sign off as well

take care

seth

 

Aviva Vogel wrote:

> 

> After a 30-minute search thru all my listserv files, I can't find the

> instructions for unsubscribing.

> 

> How do I unsubscribe from Beat-L?

> 

> Thanks to anyone who takes time out of their day to tell me!  Aviva

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:12:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: naked lunch

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Sarah: You picked a good starting point for your new encounter with Beat

literature.  "Naked Lunch" seem to capture not only the cultural values of the

beats but the stylist approaches to the written word.  The book that started me

on the way to my decades-long relationship with the Beats was Kerouac's "On the

Road" and then "Subterraneans."  When I graduated from high school in 1963, I

made a sort of pilgrimate to San Francisco and North Beach.  One of my peak

experiences at that time was encountering Allen Ginsberg as he was walking out

of City Lights Bookstore.  He was wearing a rather heavy looking backpack and

had just, I think, returned from a trip to India.  I immediately ran back into

the bookstore, purchased a copy of Ginsberg's "Reality Sandwiches" so that I

could have AG autograph it for me.  When I finally caught up with him he

graciously agreed to autograph the book for me, adding rather slyly: "You're

panging, you've been running."  Needless to say, as a self-conscious  18 year

old, I was very embarrassed.  Following his signature on the book, he added the

drawing of the fishl-head-with-three-bodies that appears on the cover of his

"Collected Poems."  It's a moment I'll never forget.  winte030@tc.umn.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:38:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cosmic Baseball Association <cosmic@CLARK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Assistance Sorely Needed

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hello Folks:

 

To unsubscribe from the BEAT-L list try this approach:

 

Send an email message to LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.  In the message area type:

 

SIGNOFF BEAT-L

 

(you can leave the subject field blank)

 

Hope this helps and catch you later.

 

Andrew

cosmic@clark.net

 

>I'd like to knoww how to sign off as well

>take care

>seth

> 

>Aviva Vogel wrote:

>> 

>> After a 30-minute search thru all my listserv files, I can't find the

>> instructions for unsubscribing.

>> 

>> How do I unsubscribe from Beat-L?

>> 

>> Thanks to anyone who takes time out of their day to tell me!  Aviva

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:47:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane Carter wrote:

 

> Let's get back to

> discussing literature.

> DC

 

Amen to that.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:07:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <344A2B93.821CA4A3@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

here here. i vote to end.

enough sunday bloody sundays.

 

brian m. kirchhoff

 

On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> > Let's get back to

> > discussing literature.

> > DC

> 

> Amen to that.

> 

> --

> 

> Peace,

> 

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:03:20 +0100

Reply-To:     dcaridade@geocities.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         dcaridade <dcaridade@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      William Burroughs and Alvaro Lapa

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi, I'm kinda new in this list (thanks for spreading the word Duarte) and

I'd like to know if someone out there knows anything about a joint

exhibition between William Burroughs and portuguese artist Alvaro Lapa.

 

thanks,

 

daniel caridade

dcaridade@geocities.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:53:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Maher has gone off the deep end

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>        Any thoughts?

>        Respectfully, Gerry Nicosia

>yes...I have a thought, maybe I will see you in the deep end with me. Isn't

it fun to bask in delusional mind dementia? I mean the colors and the way

life looks so wobbled and fuzzy-like....yes, this is where I'd rather be.

It's so much better to be here than to be anything like you. When you fall,

it's going to be hard. I can rest secure in the faults of my psychosis

whereas you my friend have to bask in your serpent bed of lies.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:56:17 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: estate

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Dear Bentz and Beat List readers:

>        We do not have to make any deductions.  The lawyers for John Lash

>[Jan Kerouac's ex-husband] have stated in their appellate brief that Mr.

>Lash and Mr. Sampas have made a financial deal whose terms are "confidential."

>        --Gerry Nicosia

>Good - I for one am comfortable with this. what business of it is yours?

I see spots appearing before my eyes....time for another psychotic episode.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:34:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Maher has gone off the deep end

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971019165309.0069771c@pop.pipeline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

girls! girls! you're both pretty!

 

can we fucking end this name calling bull-shit!

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE

"Someone must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having

done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial

 

On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

> >        Any thoughts?

> >        Respectfully, Gerry Nicosia

> >yes...I have a thought, maybe I will see you in the deep end with me. Isn't

> it fun to bask in delusional mind dementia? I mean the colors and the way

> life looks so wobbled and fuzzy-like....yes, this is where I'd rather be.

> It's so much better to be here than to be anything like you. When you fall,

> it's going to be hard. I can rest secure in the faults of my psychosis

> whereas you my friend have to bask in your serpent bed of lies.

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:59:48 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:19 PM 10/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 07:33 PM 10/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>I take it that the Sampas family has threatened to sue the

>>> Beat-L list moderators or organizers in the past for inappropriate postings?

>> 

>> 

>>Richard,

>> 

>>It wasn't the Sampas side, it was Gerry Nicosia threatening to send in

>>the FBI.

>> 

>Dear Beat List Readers,

>       Once again I am compelled to correct seriously damaging errors about

>myself.  I never "sent in the FBI" against the Beat list.  I did report to

>the FBI that Mr. Maher had sent me a private threat, not on the Beat List,

>but directly to my private email address.  Mr. Maher is a convicted felon

>and he works closely with Mr. Sampas, a man whose family stands to lose

>several million dollars if I successfully prosecute Jan Kerouac's lawsuit

>against his family.  Under those circumstances, and having a family and

>young child to protect, I thought it prudent to report Maher's threat to the

>FBI.  I never suggested to the FBI that the Beat List should be

>investigated.  I would have no reason to.  Mr. Gargan and I have remained on

>good terms since my first entry on the list last April.  But we have

>discussed the seriousness of people, like Rod Anstee, for instance, making

>bogus charges on the list--that I had sold papers stolen from Columbia

>University to U Mass, Lowell, for example--a charge that had absolutely no

>foundation in reality, since the papers he mentioned were not even at U

>Mass, Lowell.  We all want an open list, but do we want a list where one

>person can knowingly bring erroneous, damaging charges against others on the

>list, and then come back to do so again and again?

>        Respectfully, Gerry Nicosia

>I saw letters stamped that clearly said, "Property of Columbia

College - Not For Sale or Duplication" - I wonder what that meant? I saw

those letters from folders at John Sampas' house which were in turn copies

taken from the Memory Babe collection.I wonder what that meant?

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:04:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: other lists/Open letter to Gerry

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:24 AM 10/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>My comments to Mr. Nicosia have been directed to him off the list. I have

>>been away from the computer all day when I was at work, meanwhile,  you guys

>>have just kept on talking about this very same issue. Your right. Enough!

>>The judge in New Mexico will have the last word.

>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

>MAYBE the judge in New Mexico will have the last word..

> 

>It's very possible the judge in New Mexico will have the second to the last

>word.

> 

>1st: The WORD in New Mexico

>2nd:The WORD in Florida.

> 

> 

>j grant

> 

I anxiously await this so that we can get more published books when this

bullshit clears. That's what upsets me most. There is a wait on everything

until the lawsuit ends so...right now we all lose. Some of the Dharma was

contracted for publication about four or five years ago so that we were able

to get that at least. You want to see The Sea Is My Brother and The Night Is

My Woman published? Too bad, they won't be on the shelves until this mockery

of a trial ends.....the official bio and journals are figured to be far

enough into the future so that at least they may not be hindered in their

preparation. Think on that for a while....all the archives would be placed

if there wasn't this bogus lawsuit pending.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:51:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Joey Mellott <peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Welcome to the wild, wacky, and witty world of JK!

 

I'm a HS student (finally a senior), and I've been into the beat generation

for almost a year.  I developed my intrest from conversations with a friend

(hi curtis) who really liked The Dharma Bums.  (In future chats I

discovered he had never finished OTR, that stunned me completely)  I read

OTR first, and delved into jack's biography for a history term paper (got a

100 on it too :) )  I read NL next, followed by Desolation Angels, Visions

of Cody and, right now, the Soft Machine.  I'm not an expert, but I really

like what JK and WSB have to say about life and society.  (Incidentally, I

do hold non-beat writer as equal to these two in vision and subversion:

Philip K. Dick.  Read a Scanner Darkly, it'll change the way you look at

the world and at cops.)  I like WSB's constant attack against control, and

love to use the beats to counter the idea that all intellectuals have PHD's

and teach at universities.  SM is going slowly, mostly because I'm doing a

nasty crit paper on Hamlet at the moment.

 

If any other HS students are looking for people who read literature outside

of class, check your school's writer's club or the debate team.  You'd be

amazed how much philosophy the average second year debater knows.

 

my $.02.

 

Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and student (well, mostly a student)

(peyotecoyote@iah.com)

"the socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little

bells (300 of horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."

- Antonin Artaud

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:02:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Christa St. Peter" <astrid@NORSHORE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Jack'l lat letter

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I am interested in seeing this letter as well. Can it be posted?

 

Christa (astrid@norshore.net)

 

----------

> 

> At 12:14 PM 10/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >J. Grant: I would be very interested in seeing a copy of the letter by

> Kerouac

> >on his death bed. My e-mail address is: winte030@tc.umn.edu   Thanks,

Donald

> >

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:20:10 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Karen Eblen <keblen@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Assistance Sorely Needed

Content-Type: text/plain

 

to sign off from BEAT-L...

send to <listserv@CUNYVM.BITNET>

no subject

message body  <signoff Beat-L>

 

>Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:08:52 -0400

>Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From:         seth hodes <shodes@HOME.COM>

>Subject:      Re: Assistance Sorely Needed

>To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>I'd like to knoww how to sign off as well

>take care

>seth

> 

>Aviva Vogel wrote:

>> 

>> After a 30-minute search thru all my listserv files, I can't find the

>> instructions for unsubscribing.

>> 

>> How do I unsubscribe from Beat-L?

>> 

>> Thanks to anyone who takes time out of their day to tell me!  Aviva

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:25:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Christa St. Peter" <astrid@NORSHORE.NET>

Subject:      Re: beat

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Like many others, I was introduced to the Beats through "On The Road" - I

read it when I was in tenth grade, mainly, I think, to impress my teachers

and look cool (even though my friends hadn't the slightest clue who Kerouac

was). Years later, imagine my delight when I discovered that Dean Moriarty

was an *actual* guy! I read everything and anything I could get my hands on

that mentioned Neal Cassady, and for some reason, I feel very close to him

- perhaps because of certain aspects of my life that are strangely parallel

to his, and how he lacked self-consciousness about these things, whereas I

am ashamed.

 

I've tried a few times to read "Visions of Cody" all the way through.

That's what I'm doing right now. I'm looking for the passage that contains

"...My heart broke in the general despair, and opened up inwards to the

Lord, I made a supplication in this dream." I was listening to the Kerouac

Sound Files and heard this. The way he says it - the way it sounds - it's

just *very* cool - it's gorgeous. I want to know what it means, but I'm

having trouble finding it this book - I'm also having a hard time rustling

up the patience to read this book cover to cover. Can someone help me out?

 

Christa

astrid@norshore.net

----------

> 

> 

> hi......

> 

> i'm an eighteen year-old college student just introduced to the world of

jack

> kerouac and the beat genre........

> 

>brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:47:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack'l lat letter

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At 12:02 PM 10/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>I am interested in seeing this letter as well. Can it be posted?

> 

>Christa (astrid@norshore.net)

> 

>----------

>> 

>> At 12:14 PM 10/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>> >J. Grant: I would be very interested in seeing a copy of the letter by

>> Kerouac

>> >on his death bed.

 

Jack was unconscious on his death bed receiving blood transfusions.

 

Paul....

 

 

 

 

 My e-mail address is: winte030@tc.umn.edu   Thanks,

>Donald

>> >

>> >

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:52:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Christa St. Peter" <astrid@NORSHORE.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Beats (what else)

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Sarah,

 

I just finished a research paper on Neal Cassady. One biography in

particular proved to be quite valuable - "The Holy Goof", by William

Plummer. It discusses Cassady's relationships with Kerouac, Ginsberg, and

his wife, Carolyn, in detail. And it's a very good read. "Off the Road" by

Carolyn Cassady is also a good source.

 

Christa

 

P.S. Read "As Ever - The Collected Correspondence of Allen Ginsberg & Neal

             Cassady" to gain even more insight into their relationship.

----------

> From: Sarah Sage <yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: The Beats (what else)

> Date: Saturday, October 18, 1997 8:03 PM

> 

> I am a senior in Highschool who has just started to read OTR and has been

> assigned to write a research paper on Neal Cassady. I read somewhere that

> Cassady had a sexual affair with Ginsburg, can anyone verify this for me?

> I was also wondering if Cassady and Kerouac left this world on good

> terms. Oh, and can my name also be added to the list of Kerouac's last

> letter?

> And I would also love to hear anything unusual, or something unable to be

> found by text about any of the Beats if anyone out there wants to

contribute.

> 

> Sarah

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:24:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Comments: To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199710190619.XAA28962@italy.it.earthlink.net>

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>From what I have read, Memere Kerouac was seriously ill even before Jack

died, and that the only reason Jack married Stella Sampas was to have a

live-in housekeeper for her.  What Im wondering is, is there anyone who

can assess as to Memere's mental state during the last years of her life

and specifically when she "signed" the will?

 

Did she know what she was signing?  This was an old, sick woman who could

well have been manipulated.  And even if she wasnt manipulated, she

likely couldnt completely grasp what she was doing, understand the

consequences of her actions.  She probably didnt realize how important an

author her son really was, since he didnt exactly die wealthy.

 

It seems to me that there is room for a compromise here.  Why cant *both*

the Sampas claims and Jan Kerouac's claims be thrown out, along with the

wills, and a third party designated by the courts named as executor.

Someone who has no financial interests in this, and is only committed to

finding the best place to preserve the Kerouac papers.

 

Maybe the papers should be *donated* to a library.  Jan is dead.  The

Sampases have made plenty of money.  Getting a million from NYPL or

anywhere else isnt going to make much of a difference to anyone central

to this case.  It would have to Jan but she died.

 

Its time to let this go IMO...settle it....arbitrate!

 

 

Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:26:22 +0100

Reply-To:     dcaridade@geocities.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         dcaridade <dcaridade@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Letter

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----------

> From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

> Please add me to the letter list too, though I feel a little like I

> shouldn't be taking up list space just to say that but don't want to miss

> out on it either.

 

Please add me also.

 

daniel caridade

dcaridade@geocities.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:31:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: The Beats (what else)

Comments: To: Sarah Sage <yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9710181744.A12286-0100000@vifa1>

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On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Sarah Sage wrote:

 

> assigned to write a research paper on Neal Cassady. I read somewhere that

> Cassady had a sexual affair with Ginsburg, can anyone verify this for me?

 

 

Cassady and Ginsberg had a long-time off and on relationship that was

among other things, sexual in nature.  Ginsberg later married Peter

Orlovsky but often referred to Neal as the other great love of his life.

 

> I was also wondering if Cassady and Kerouac left this world on good

> terms. Oh, and can my name also be added to the list of Kerouac's last

> letter?

 

Apparently they hadnt seen each other in several years when Neal died in

1968.  They had a serious rift because Jack got fame and fortune writing

a book about Neal, while Neal suffered from the spotlight and attention

he didnt ask for and didnt want.  Jack never shared toe OTR royalties or

allowed Neal to benefit financially (such as letting Neal publish their

correspondence, which Jack refused to allow)  And when Neal ended up in

San Quentin on a trumped up marijuana charge, Kerouac didnt lift a finger

to help get him out or support Neal's family while he was in jail.  Did

apparently send him a typewriterthough.  Read "Memory Babe", written by

fellow Beat-list subscriber Gerry Nicosia for the details.

 

 

 

Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:32:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: wsb

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Matthew L Potter wrote:

> 

> anyone have directions for making burroughs'

> inventions?  I'd be grateful.thanks. matt

> 

> mlpotter@student.umass.edu

 

i know somewhere on the net and in print are different directions. I

have no immediate knowledge where. If i recall i will post to you.  I do

remember one remark that william was disappointed that more people

didn't actually do it, but was satisfied reading and asking about it.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:14:25 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "MYLES A. HASELHORST" <hase8846@BLUE.UNCO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Letter

Comments: To: dcaridade <dcaridade@geocities.com>

In-Reply-To:  <199710191925.MAA09672@geocities.com>

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If you could, please send me a copy of the letter.

Thanks,

Myles.

hase8846@blue.unco.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:28:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Stoner Dorson <JenPeace2U@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Letter

 

If you could, will you please also send me a copy of the letter also?

 

Thank you...peace to you

Jennifer

JenPeace2U@AOL.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:43:24 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Signoff Beat-l

 

Since I've received so many requests for "signoff" information, let me

quickly post the procedure:  Send mail to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu.

Leave the subject line blank.  In the body of your mail, type

unsubscribe beat-l.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:06:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Letter

In-Reply-To:  <199710191925.MAA09672@geocities.com>

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>----------

>> From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

>> Please add me to the letter list too, though I feel a little like I

>> shouldn't be taking up list space just to say that but don't want to miss

>> out on it either.

> 

>Please add me also.

> 

I would also like to see the letter.

 

thanks,

leo jilk (ljilk@cotter.mps.org)

 

 

"Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of

your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,

you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly

will. Ad astra per aspera."  --Jack Kerouac

 

"All I wanted was to be a mariachi like my ancestors. But the city I

thought would bring me luck...Brought only a curse...I lost my guitar, my

hand, and her...With this injury, I may never play the guitar

again...Without her, I have no love. But with the dog...and the weapons,

I'm prepared...for the future." --The Mariachi in "El Mariachi"

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:15:46 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Has Mr. Sampas been making illegal xeroxes?

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>>I saw letters stamped that clearly said, "Property of Columbia

>College - Not For Sale or Duplication" - I wonder what that meant? I saw

>those letters from folders at John Sampas' house which were in turn copies

>taken from the Memory Babe collection.I wonder what that meant?

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

Dear Henry:   October 19, 1997

        MY xeroxes from Columbia University are still (legally) in my

possession; they are not at the University of Lowell.  Therefore if Mr.

Sampas has been making his own bootleg xeroxes of Columbia University

material, perhaps from Rod Anstee's collection, I'd say he is the one who is

breaking the law.

        --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:24:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Binu Paulose <paulose@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>

Subject:      hello

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I'm new to this list.  When I was browsing the web on Allen Ginsberg and

listening to a Real Audio tribute of him, I came across this page about a

Beat Generation Mailing list. I thought, "This is UNREAL!"  So I

subscribed.  I read "On the Road" over the summer and have been hooked on

it since.  I've gotten others to read books by Kerouac, Ginsberg, and

Burroughs.  I've purchased "Book of Blues", "Selected Poems" w/ Eric

Drooker, and I'm making an order for "Kicks Joy Darkness".  And when I

come to NYC during Thanksgiving, or if I find it in a bookstore around

campus, that is if I find the time to go to a bookstore, I'm gonna look

for the new book "Some of the Dharma".  Oh man, now I know how Neal

Cassady feels with his rushes!

 

Binu

e-mail: paulose@acsu.buffalo.edu

ICQ # : 3292154

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:54:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Has Mr. Sampas been making illegal xeroxes?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Dear Henry:   October 19, 1997

>        MY xeroxes from Columbia University are still (legally) in my

>possession; they are not at the University of Lowell.  Therefore if Mr.

>Sampas has been making his own bootleg xeroxes of Columbia University

>material, perhaps from Rod Anstee's collection, I'd say he is the one who is

>breaking the law.

>        --Gerry Nicosia

> 

The are the property of the estae to do as he wishes.....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:38:41 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michele M. De Voe" <DeVoeMM@AOL.COM>

Subject:      WILLIAM EVERSON

 

IS THERE A WILLIAM EVERSON SCHOLAR/FAN IN THE BUNCH?

I'VE BEEN RECEIVING POSTINGS FOR OVER 3 MONTHS AND NEVER A WORD IS MENTIONED

ABOUT HIM.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:59:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

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I have a number of the Vol. I, No. 2 which I will make available for sample

copies (to my detractors and all). . .please reserve in advance with your

address. Those outside of the U.S. will have to send postage in advance.

These are copies that I was not happy with in their presented form and

therefore withdrew from immediate sale. This issue and the next will be

combined and will be republished for institutional and personal

subscriptions. Thank-you, Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:42:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Binu Paulose <paulose@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>

Subject:      fill me in...

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can you folks fill me in on what's happened thus far on the mailing list?

also are there any upcoming events regarding any readings or such??

 

Binu

e-mail: paulose@acsu.buffalo.edu

ICQ # : 3292154

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:44:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      estate matters, like it really matters

 

John Lash, who is the executor of Jan's will, administers Jan's estate on all

non-literary matters, including her legal interest in what was Jack's estate.

(John Lash was Jan's first husband)

 

Mr. Nicosia, as the literary executor, has authority only to administer Jan's

literary estate (writings).  I believe this to mean that Mr. Nicosia only has

a say/administration authority over Jan's literary works (2 books and an

unpublished novel).

 

He has no legal say or control over Jan's portion of Jack's estate (which was

first controlled/administered by Jack's mother Memere, then Stella Sampas -

his last wife, and finally Stella's heirs who administer Stella's estate) (I

am not sure how John Sampas got the title -Literary executor to Jack

Kerouac).

 

And people keep saying that this is not about money, but then talk about who

is getting the royalties.  I believe that Jan, under the current legal

standing, received the royalties she was entitled to;  but would not have

been entitled to receive money from the sale of the actual archives (now

valued at anywhere from 1 million to 10 million). The court case in Florida

might have an impact on that.

 

I for one like to see this matter discussed in this forum, cause if not here,

then where?

 

Also, while I was not in the main room at the infamous Jack Kerouac NYU

conference (I was in the lobby) where the altercation occurred between Jan

and company vs. Allen Ginsberg and company (where Jan and company were

escorted out)-- I understand that part of the furor was the huge banner that

was unfurled inside the conference room (that said 'Save Jack's Papers), and

that Allen's comment was that the conference was not the proper venue for

that topic. If I am wrong, please correct me.

 

And it was at this conference that the petition was passed around which

requested that Jan be allowed to speak. I did not sign the petition, not

because of my lack of support for Jan; but because the petition also

requested that Mr. Nicosia also be allowed to speak at the conference, which

I did not support.

 

I think there are many people interested in having the archives become

publicly available for serious (and not so serious) study, and that it be

done in a fair and equitable manner to all parties concerned (including who

gets the money).

 

However I am sure that there are more then two sides to this arguement. And

before anybody lumps me into into any camp, I AM NOT A NUMBER, I AM A FREE

MAN.

 

Number 6,

Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:00:41 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Estate Battle

 

The anniversary of Jack Kerouac's death will be upon us in a couple of

days.  I have asked both Gerry Nicosia and Paul Maher to drop discussion

of this topic on the Beat-l list.  In honor of Kerouac's gentleness and

compassion, I call for everyone on the list to declare a moratorium on

this topic.   I think James Stauffer summed up the situation well in his

earlier post.  This issue will be settled in the courts.   Anyone

wishing to discuss the matter further should do so via private email.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:07:53 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Women

 

Those of you interested in the women of the Beat Generation might want

to look at a new publication "A Different Beat: Early Work of the Women

of the Beat Generation."  (Serpent's Tail, $13.99).  Contributors

include Mimi Albert, Carol Berge, Carolyn Cassady, Elise Cowen, Diane

DiPrima, Joyce Johnson, Hetti Jones, Eileen Kaufman and Joan Haverty.

While Brenda Knight's "Women of the Beat Generation" covers many of the

same authors, there's very little duplication in terms of the works each

editor selected for publlication.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:22:12 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: WILLIAM EVERSON

 

William Everson, yeas, just been reading his WAR ELEGIES, a fine work of

poetry. Have also picked up a biography of him which I have not read. I have

always run into references to him but this is the first time I have really

looked at his work. Do you have anything in particular that you would recomend?

It's an interesting life he led.

 

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:31:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Jack's last letter

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>i'm very interested in seeing letter also. is there any way you could post it

>to the list? i'm not sure if you're allowed to do that though. do you know if

>this letter will appear in Anne Charters second edition of JK letters?

> 

>~~Marlene

> 

Dear Marlene and others who have evinced an interest in Jack's last letter:

        First off, in answer to your question, NO, ANN CHARTERS WILL NOT

PUBLISH THIS LETTER IN THE SECOND VOLUME OF KEROUAC'S SELECTED LETTERS.

        The letter we are speaking of was written (typed) by Jack Kerouac to

his nephew Paul Blake, Jr., and it is dated October 20, 1969.  At the bottom

of the letter Jack has typed some words from Gabrielle Kerouac to her

grandson (Paul Blake, Jr.).  There is a signature by Jack and also a printed

"Memere" which appears to have been done by Jack too.

        Now, it's true that Jack began hemmorrhaging around 9AM on October

20, and died a day later in St. Anthony's Hospital when they couldn't stop

his bleeding (the liver creates the stuff that clots your blood, and his

liver was shot).  So when did he write the letter? asks Mr. Maher.  Well, we

also have a tape of Stella Sampas saying Jack was up all during the previous

night, that is, the night before he was taken to the hospital--and the

testimony of Jack's neighbors is that he often stayed up all night long,

they'd see him standing by his lighted window brooding or sitting in his

rocking chair swigging from a bottle.  There were mailboxes near his

house--he lived right in the middle of St. Pete--so he could easily have

walked to one to mail the letter, say, around 8AM.  There's also the issue

of his having quoted Gabrielle at the end of the letter.  But Gabe was often

up at night too, especially if Jack was stirring.  This was confirmed in the

piece by Jay Pendergast published in Mr. Maher's first issue of the The

Kerouac Quarterly.  In fact, Dennis McNally in DESOLATE ANGEL claims that

Jack "went in to talk with Memere about four in the morning."  McNally

doesn't say what his source is for this statement.

        Also, IT MAKES SENSE, if Jack felt ill that night, pains in his

abdomen, etc., that he may well have wanted to send a letter to his nephew

with instructions of what to do in the event of his death.

        The letter was sent to Paul Blake, Jr., who was 21 years old,

serving in the Air National Guard in Alaska.  My connection with the letter

began when I interviewed Paul in Redlands, California, in 1978, 9 years

later.  Paul pulled out the letter to show it to me, and, as I recall, there

was a postmarked envelope along with it.  Paul then went to the grocery

store to make a xerox copy for me.

        I did not mention the letter in my biography of Jack Kerouac, MEMORY

BABE, but I did write and speak about it in other places.  In the fall of

1993, I got a call from John Sampas's lawyer, George Tobia, in which Mr.

Tobia asked me to make a public statement that the letter was a "forgery."

I told Mr. Tobia that I could not in good conscience make such a statement.

I had seen the original of the letter, it sounded exactly like Jack's style,

and the typeface even matched that used by Jack Kerouac in other letters

sent in the last few months of his life.  Mr. Tobia said he did not believe

this last fact, so I checked it out.  It turned out Jack used two different

typewriters during 1969, but one of them matched the typeface of the Paul

Blake letter exactly.  Mr. Tobia then suggested that Paul Blake must have

sneaked into Jack's room, after his death, to type the letter on Jack's

typewriter, and then he must have mailed the letter to himself in Alaska.  I

told him this seemed ridiculous to me, especially in light of the fact that

Blake didn't show the letter to anyone for 9 years, till I showed up on his

doorstep.

        Around this time, I talked with Ann Charters, who was preparing the

first edition of Kerouac's SELECTED LETTERS.  I told her she should print

the Blake letter in the second edition.  She told me that John Sampas would

surely fire her as editor if she tried to print that letter.  In fact, she

confessed that Sampas was forcing her to remove letters Jack had written to

certain of his (Jack's) girlfriends, because Sampas did not like them.

        I did send Ann to my MEMORY BABE archive at U Mass, Lowell, to look

for some other letters (xeroxes) Jack had written to Paul Blake, Jr.  Soon

afterward, Ann called me, and told me that ALL the letters to Paul Blake

(xeroxes) were missing from my archive, including the letter dated October

20, 1969. I subsequently went in person to the library, and librarian Martha

Mayo told me those xeroxes had been stolen.  She told me the person who had

stolen them was Paul Maher, Jr. (Paul Maher of the Kerouac Quarterly).  She

showed me a clipping about Mr. Maher's arrest, but it only said he had

stolen some books on silk worms.  When I checked with the Lowell Police

Department, they told me that they had never found any stolen Kerouac items

in Mr. Maher's apartment.

        So the plot thickened, as they used to say.

        Then Rodney Phillips, curator of the Berg Collection of the New York

Public Library, announced that HE HAD THE ORIGINAL OF THE PAUL BLAKE LETTER

sitting in his collection.  Subsequently, Paul Blake Jr. resurfaced (after

vanishing for two years) and admitted that he had sold the letter to a

dealer in New York for ten thousand dollars.

        Mr. Phillips told Jan Kerouac and myself that he believes the Blake

letter is authentic, not a forgery.

        In 1994, Jan Kerouac had the Blake letter printed on a T-shirt for

her friends, and it was worn to various Kerouac events and press

conferences.  At one such event, John Sampas told people who were wearing

the shirt: "You know that's a forgery, don't you?"

        The letter was actually published in full in a literary magazine

called Bouillabaise, Issue No. 4, 1994. It was published by Dave and Ana

Christy.  You can probably order a copy from them.  Their address is 31A

Waterloo St., New Hope PA 18938.  That same year, the Village Voice ran a

significant excerpt from the letter.  The Kerouac Estate made no protest at

either time.  But when Joe Grant said he was going to post the letter on the

internet last May, he received a threat from George Tobia (Sampas's lawyer)

warning him of a copyright infringement action.  Mr. Tobia also called me to

warn that the letter could not be published.  I asked if Mr. Tobia now

considered the letter genuine, and he refused to say that he did.  So I

wondered how he planned to sue for copyright infringement on a letter he

claimed was a forgery?  Thus far, there has been no clarification from Tobia

or the Kerouac Estate.

        Since a portion of the letter was already published in the VILLAGE

VOICE, I feel it is legitimate for me to quote from the VILLAGE VOICE

article here, as a scholarly right of fair usage.  I could, if I had the

time, send everyone a newspaper clipping; or everyone could go to their

local library searching for it.  But to save time, I will simply quote from

that newspaper article here.  That way, readers of the Beat-List can make

their own scholarly judgments about the letter's authenticity:

        From "Dread Beat & Blood," by Richard Gehr and Daniel Pinchbeck, THE

VILLAGE VOICE, June 7, 1994:

        "'Dear Little Paul: This is Uncle Jack.  I've turned over my entire

estate, real, personal, and mixed, to Memere, and if she dies before me, it

is then turned to you, and if I die thereafter, it all goes to you.... I

just wanted to leave my 'estate' (which is what it really is) to someone

directly connected with the last remaining drop of my direct blood line,

which is, me sister Carolyn, your Mom, and not to leave a dingblasted

fucking goddamn thing to my wife's one hundred Greek relatives.  I also plan

to divorce, or have her marriage to me, annulled.  Just telling you the

facts of how it is....'  Jack Kerouac to Paul Blake Jr., October 20, 1969.

        "Jack Kerouac died the following day and never carried out what may,

or may not, have been an idle threat ... Blake himself has gone missing for

the last 18 months and is said to be bitter over having missed out on what

he felt was his inheritance.  The Jack Kerouac estate stayed with

'Memere'--Gabrielle Kerouac, Jack's mother--until she died in 1973.  Her own

will gave it to Jack's last wife, Stella.  Upon her death in 1990, the

estate went to her family and is now managed by her brother, John Sampas...."

        (There is a lot more to the article.)

        Hope that helps.

        P.S.  Tonight is the 28th anniversary of that very night.  In fact,

it was a Sunday night then too, in 1969, October 19, when Jack stayed up all

night, outside in the back yard watching the stars part of the time,

according to Stella, and inside at his desk part of the time working on a

new novel "The Spotlight Print."  And then in the morning, Monday October

20, after mailing the letter to Paul, he turned on THE GALLOPING GOURMET,

opened a can of tuna, and started to hemmorhage.  Alas.  God rest his spirit.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:41:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: estate matters, like it really matters

In-Reply-To:  <971019184247_-1944817340@emout13.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

As is often the case, both sides have a point in this argument.  They

just need to meet each other half way.

 

My impression is that if Jack Kerouac is up in heaven or somewhere

looking down on this, he's probably mad as hell.  He's probably sitting

up there drinking a beer and just wishing he could come back and tell

everyone involved in this to go jump off a bridge.

 

Jack Kerouac wrote for the joy of it, not for the money.  He wrote to

share his passion and his joy for life.  The very idea that his writings

would end up being fought over for motives of greed and power, would

surely be repugnant to him.

 

>From what Ive read, Jack Kerouac was as passionate abouthow his works

were handled as he was about the writing itself.  His fights with editors

were legendary.  He would be obsessed with how his papers were being

handled if he were still alive.

 

I think he'd want his papers in a library.  But not so a daughter he

barely knew and other people he didnt know at all could split a million

bucks.  And he wouldnt find the idea of the Sampases getting rich off his

writing palatable either.  Remember Jack was a loner, who supposedly

married Stella Sampas not out of love, but because he needed a live-in

nurse for his mother.  The only Sampas family member he really

loved, if you read what some have written, was childhood friend

Sebastian, who died years earlier.  He didnt have this

overridinglove for his inlaws.  Based on his earlier marriages, he

obviously didnt take to the idea of being married or have much faith in the

institution of marriage either.  If he didnt take his marriage to Stella

that seriously, if it was of convenience and not love, Memere would have

been wrong to assume more and leave his legacy in the care of this

woman's family.  She may as well have left the estate to Joan Haverty

Kerouac's family, or Edie Parker Kerouac's.  Jack was married on paper,

but the strong indication was that he was not married in his heart or in

spirit.  In those ways he was a loner.

 

It seems this whole thing eminates from the fact that Memere Kerouac

didnt like Jack's literary friends, like Allen Ginsberg.  From what has

been written, she read Jack's letters and interefered in his

communications and tried to end friendships with many of his writer

friends.  It seems that it was Memere's distrust for these literary

friends, whom she saw as the literary establishment, that may have caused

her to simply leave everything to the Sampases.  Regardless of how the

Sampases of handled things since, Memere made a mistake.

 

I wonder, in fact, if Memere ever wanted Jack's letters and journals, and

writings like "Some of the Dharma" ever published.  Stella Sampas

certainly sat on them.  We are lucky that John Sampas has finally allowed

them to start seeing the light of day.

 

But if Jack is up there somewhere thinking his whole legacy is being

fought over by a group of people looking to be rich and important, I bet

he'd just as soon burn his papers and everything else.  These people have

forgotten WHY Jack wrote.  They have forgotten his spirit.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:48:50 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Sampas calls on Gyenis for reinforcements

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:44 PM 10/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

>John Lash, who is the executor of Jan's will, administers Jan's estate on all

>non-literary matters, including her legal interest in what was Jack's estate.

>(John Lash was Jan's first husband)

> 

>Mr. Nicosia, as the literary executor, has authority only to administer Jan's

>literary estate (writings).  I believe this to mean that Mr. Nicosia only has

>a say/administration authority over Jan's literary works (2 books and an

>unpublished novel).

> 

>He has no legal say or control over Jan's portion of Jack's estate (which was

>first controlled/administered by Jack's mother Memere, then Stella Sampas -

>his last wife, and finally Stella's heirs who administer Stella's estate) (I

>am not sure how John Sampas got the title -Literary executor to Jack

>Kerouac).

> 

>before anybody lumps me into into any camp, I AM NOT A NUMBER, I AM A FREE

>MAN.

> 

>Number 6,

>Attila

> 

        Attila, you are full of bullshit up to your neck (if I may use Paul

Maher's style of phrasing).

NONE OF THE ABOVE IS FACT.  ALL OF THE ABOVE IS MR. SAMPAS'S and MR. LASH'S

INTERPRETATION.  Jan's will in fact puts me in charge of all her literary

affairs, and she specifically says that I should control ALL HER JACK

KEROUAC PROPERTIES in addition to her own writings.  Please see Joe Grant's

web site, www.bookzen.com, since I believe he has posted Jan's will.

         The suit in Florida was clearly intended to recover her father's

literary property.  However, Sampas and Lash are trying to say the suit in

Florida has nothing to do with literary property (no, not much, only about

twenty million dollars' worth.)  This case will be heard by the appellate

court in Santa Fe, New Mexico, in two months.  They will decide whether Mr.

Lash and Mr. Sampas are correct, or whether Mr. Nicosia is correct.  IT IS

BEYOND ABSURDITY FOR MR. GYENIS who claims to be a respectable editor to

print such rubbish, claiming HE IS THE FINAL LEGAL AUTHORITY ON A CASE THAT

HAS NOT BEEN DECIDED YET.  All I can say is Mr. Sampas must be desperate if

he has to hire Gyenis to pretend he is the three judges on the appellate

court in Santa Fe, to provide a "make-believe decision" to everyone here on

the Beat List.

        I will gladly post the REAL RULING (as opposed to the make-believe

ruling) when it occurs in two months.  That is a promise to all of you on

the Beat-List, and I will hold to it regardless of whether I win or lose.

        --Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:51:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Please send me a sample copy.  Thanks you!!

 

Dr. Irving Leif

503 Park Avenue

Hoboken, New Jersey 07030

 

 

At 06:59 PM 10/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I have a number of the Vol. I, No. 2 which I will make available for sample

>copies (to my detractors and all). . .please reserve in advance with your

>address. Those outside of the U.S. will have to send postage in advance.

>These are copies that I was not happy with in their presented form and

>therefore withdrew from immediate sale. This issue and the next will be

>combined and will be republished for institutional and personal

>subscriptions. Thank-you, Paul. . .

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:14:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Sampas calls on Gyenis for reinforcements

In-Reply-To:  <199710192348.QAA24577@germany.it.earthlink.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

"Ihereby appoint John Lash as General Executor of this will for all

purposes, SAVE those concerning any rights that I now possess or may

hereafter possess in any literary works or literary archival materials,

including but not limited to any literary works or literary materials of

my father, Jack Kerouac, and my own literary works and materials,

including but not limited to "Baby Driver" and "Train Song".  As to these

literary works and materials, I appoint GERALD NICOSIA as Literary

Executor.  In his capacity as Literary Executor, he shall make all

decisions regarding the appropriate publication, republication, sale,

license, or any other exploitation of any nature of any intellectual

rights I have in any literary works or materials.  He shall do these

things with due regard to fostering economic return without devaluing or

cheapening the literary works or any intellectual property rights flowing

therefrom, or in any way reflecting negatively on me, my father, or my

heirs or beneficiaries.

 

In return for his services as Literary Executor, GERALD NICOSIA shall

receive as compensation 10% (ten percent) of any income generated by

publications, sales, or other licensing arrangements that he has

negotiated, payable to him at receipt of any such income by the estate"

 

>From Jan Kerouac's will.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:21:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Jan's will

In-Reply-To:  <199710192348.QAA24577@germany.it.earthlink.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I forgot to say that I got that paragraph of Jan's will courtesey of

WWW.bookzen.com.

 

Nice deal for Nicosia.  Not every biographer ends up with ten percent of

his subject's estate.  Gerald Nicosia may be a millionaire some day.  Of

course Im sure Jan would much rather he have the money than the Sampases.

 

Its all about money *sigh*  All parties should go read "Some of the

Dharma", and take note of Kerouac's buddhist writings and musings on the

nature of materialism

 

richard w.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:32:53 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Jan's will, correction, please note

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:21 PM 10/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I forgot to say that I got that paragraph of Jan's will courtesey of

>WWW.bookzen.com.

> 

>Nice deal for Nicosia.  Not every biographer ends up with ten percent of

>his subject's estate.

 

Please put your reading glasses back on.  I don't get ten percent of Jan's

estate.  Besides, I wasn't HER biographer, I was her FRIEND FOR TWENTY

YEARS.  She stated I should be paid 10% of ANY FUTURE DEALS I NEGOTIATE WITH

HER PROPERTIES--that is, PAY FOR WORK DONE.

        ALL of the revenue of her estate is split between John Lash, her

exhusband, and David Bowers, her half brother.

        --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:07:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> >I have a number of the Vol. I, No. 2 which I will make available for sample

> >copies (to my detractors and all).

 

please send me a sample copy,

                a detractor

                patricia

903 sunset dr.

lawrence, ks 66044

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:15:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aviva Vogel <Aviva99999@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re:

              =?gb2312?B?ytW8/sjLICAgICBSZTogb3RoZXIgbGlzdHMvT3BlbiBsZXR0ZXIgdG8gR2Vy?=

 

This debate (Kerouac) has surpassed its bounds on this list, and I

respectfully plea that it continue elsewhere, so I don't have to unsubscribe.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:49:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:51 PM 10/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Please send me a sample copy.  Thanks you!!

> 

>Dr. Irving Leif

>503 Park Avenue

>Hoboken, New Jersey 07030

> 

No problem and thanks!

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:52:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:07 PM 10/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>> >I have a number of the Vol. I, No. 2 which I will make available for sample

>> >copies (to my detractors and all).

> 

>please send me a sample copy,

>                a detractor

>                patricia

>903 sunset dr.

>lawrence, ks 66044

> 

My pleasure, hope you enjoy it and impart from it some of my good

intentions. thanks, Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:26:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aviva Vogel <Aviva99999@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Private Relationship on List?

 

please please please carry this debate on privately!  unless i'm wrong, and

i'm certainly willing to stand corrected, i think most beat-l members would

agree that this discussion is no longer a contribution to most of us, and has

taken on the air of a private relationship issue.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:41:35 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

> > >I have a number of the Vol. I, No. 2 which I will make available for sample

> > >copies (to my detractors and all).

> 

> please send me a sample copy,

>                 a detractor

>                 patricia

> 903 sunset dr.

> lawrence, ks 66044

> 

me too please,

a human

randy royal

3009 jolly road

jacksonville, fl 32207

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:50:02 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "MYLES A. HASELHORST" <hase8846@BLUE.UNCO.EDU>

Subject:      Re:

              =?gb2312?B?ytW8/sjLICAgICBSZTogb3RoZXIgbGlzdHMvT3BlbiBsZXR0ZXIgdG8gR2Vy?=

In-Reply-To:  <971019211308_1868763643@emout19.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Aviva Vogel wrote:

 

> This debate (Kerouac) has surpassed its bounds on this list, and I

> respectfully plea that it continue elsewhere, so I don't have to unsubscribe.

> 

I second that as I believe many others on the list do as well. I

subscribed to discuss literture with other interested individuals, not

polotics.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:39:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Let's remember Jack

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Memory Gardens

               by Allen Ginsberg

               October 22-29, 1969

 

       covered with yellow leaves

          in the morning rain

 

--Quel Deluge

      he threw up his hands

         & wrote the Universe dont exist

             & died to prove it.

 

Full Moon over Ozone Park

       Airport Bus rushing thru dusk to

                     Manhattan,

 

Jack the Wizard in his

                      grave at Lowell

for the first nite--

That Jack thru those eyes I

        saw

      smog glory light

        gold over Mannahatta's spires

      will never see these

        chimneys smoking

anymore over statues of Mary

        in the graveyard...

Eternal fixity, the big headed

      wax painted Buddha doll

        pale resting incoffined--

 

Empty-skulled New

           York streets

Starveling phantoms

      filling city--

Wax dolls walking park

                Ave,

Light gleam in eye glass

Voice echoing thru Microphones

Grand Central Sailor's

        arrival 2 decades later

                   feeling melancholy--

Nostalgia for Innocent World

      War II--

A million corpses running

        across 42d street

Glass buildings rising higher

                 transparent

                       aluminum--

artifical trees, robot sofas,

            Ignorant cars--

One Way Street to Heaven...

 

Flying to Maine in a trail of black smoke...

Empire State in Heaven Sun Set Red,

         White mist in old October

  over the billion trees of Bronx--

             There's too much to see--

Jack saw sun set red over Hudson horizon

          Two three decades back...

 

Northport, in the trees, Jack drank

     rot gut & made haiku of birds

        tweetling on his porch rail at dawn--

Fell down and saw Death's golden lite

        in Florida garden a decade ago.

Now taken utterly, soul upward,

         & body down in wood coffin

             & concrete slab-box.

I threw a kissed handful of damp earth

         down on the stone lid

                    & sighed

      looking in Creeley's one eye,

Peter sweet holding a flower

       Gregory toothless bending his

         knuckle to Cinema machine--...

 

Well, while I'm here I'll

          do the work--

and what's the Work?

           To ease the pain of living.

Everything else, drunken

                dumbshow.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:28:47 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sarah Sage <yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      Re: fill me in...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.96.971019184121.14286F-100000@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Binu Paulose wrote:

 

> can you folks fill me in on what's happened thus far on the mailing list?

> also are there any upcoming events regarding any readings or such??

> 

> Binu

> e-mail: paulose@acsu.buffalo.edu

> ICQ # : 3292154

> 

 

Binu, I am probably not the one who should answer this b/c I've only

been on the list for a few days, but there is a viscious battle going on

about what should be done with the Kerouac estate. Someone else will be

able to fill you in better than I. As for any readings, I don't know, but

I know that a couple weeks ago there was a Kerouac festival and I am

wondering if anyone went to that, and if so what it was like.

 

I also want to know if anyone can tell me who Remi Broncuer (in OTR) is

in real life.

 

This I say not to offend anyone (simply curiosity): If those of you

involved in the estate battle have each others personal e-mail address,

why is the fight being broadcasted on beat-l? Are you trying to prove

something to the rest of us?

 

Sarah

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:24:35 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Who Wants to Fight?

Comments: cc: WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

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At 09:15 PM 10/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

>This debate (Kerouac) has surpassed its bounds on this list, and I

>respectfully plea that it continue elsewhere, so I don't have to unsubscribe.

> 

                                                        Oct 19, 1997

Aviva, and others on the Beat List,

        Please look at this from my point of view for a moment.

        I do not come looking for a fight.  I did not do so in April, and I

didn't do so last Monday.

        Last Monday, I wanted to announce an important fact to the Kerouac

community, that I had won a legal victory in my continuing effort--as Jan

Kerouac's literary executor--to recover, preserve, and make accessible the

Jack Kerouac archive.  That was all.  I then got hit with a whole load of

slanders, false defamatory information (I "murder" archives, I sell stolen

materials, I make millions of dollars as a literary executor), etc. etc.  By

the same three gentlemen, Paul Maher, Phil Chaput, and Attila Gyenis, who

had done that very thing to me last May.  Three gentlemen who are all

connected in both personal concerns and business concerns with Mr. John

Sampas, the person I am fighting in court.

        It does not take a genius to figure out what is going on here.

        Mr. Sampas has hired three sluggers.  I use "hired" loosely.  They

may not get an actual salary, but they get "percs."  Mr. Maher gets to use

Kerouac drawings for his magazine, he gets inside information on

publications from Mr. Sampas which give him a journalistic "scoop."  Mr.

Gyenis gets ads from Viking Penguin (Mr. Sampas's publisher), the right to

print Kerouac writings, also inside scoops.  Mr. Chaput gets an honored

place in the Lowell Kerouac Committee.

        The three sluggers have been entrusted with an important job.  As

soon as Gerald Nicosia opens his mouth, they are supposed to say the most

insulting things they can about me, make up stories about my legal dealings,

my finances, whatever.  It doesn't even matter whether what they say is

true.  Like Mr. Maher saying he has seen Columbia University xeroxes from my

archive at Mr. Sampas's house, when all the xeroxes I got from Columbia

University are still sitting in MY house.

        The main thing is just to put me on the defensive, get me all

tangled up answering a hundred false charges, get my goat if possible so

that I'll start talking at their level.  Then hope that people will start to

say, as they're saying now, "Oh, this whole thing is too nasty, let's take

it off the list!"

        But WHO made it nasty?

        Look at it from another way.  For several months, while I was off

the list, Mr. Maher was on here regularly, promoting his magazine and the

goodness of Mr. Sampas; other friends of Mr. Sampas were promoting the

Lowell Kerouac Committee, which is in many respects a publicity organ for

Mr. Sampas.  THEY WERE FREE TO SAY WHATEVER THEY WISHED.  They did not have

to worry that every time they opened their mouth, someone would jump in and

say, "You murder archives!" or "You sell stolen materials!" or "You file

bogus lawsuits!" or "Greed is your motivation!"

        What about the other 280 of you on this list?  None of you has to

worry that your personal life, finances, or human decency will be attacked

every time you decide to make a post.  But I am put under this pressure the

instant I decide I to communicate on this list.  THIS IS NOT RIGHT.

        I also do not believe it is right to banish the topic either.  The

fate of Jack Kerouac's papers and unpublished writings is of vital

importance to anyone who cares about his work.  And we could discuss this

topic rationally if the three sluggers stopped making it their job to bloody

me up every time I open my mouth.

        People on this list have shown that they are interested in the

topic.  Many asked about the last letter Jack wrote, on October 20, 1969,

the so-called "Paul Blake letter."  I endeavored to describe the history of

this letter as objectively as I could, without attacking Mr. Sampas or

anyone else.  I even defended Mr. Maher, who was accused of stealing a xerox

of this letter from my archive by U Mass, Lowell librarian Martha Mayo--an

accusation I believe to be false.

        I believe that questions can be answered calmly and coolly and

people can learn things that will help them to understand this whole

controversy.  I am willing to do this, and hope the others are too.  But

that also means being willing to say, "I don't know the answer."  I took Mr.

Gyenis to task (a bit too hotly, I admit and apologize for) because he

claimed to know that I have no authority over Jack Kerouac's estate, when in

fact that issue is currently undecided.  No one can say for sure what my

authority is until the three judges in Santa Fe make that decision two

months from now.  In the meantime, we can state our opinons, or say we don't

know; but Mr. Gyenis did neither, he simply stated as fact something which

is not a fact right now.  And to state as facts things that ARE NOT FACTS

can damage other people, and the damaging of other people is what this

problem is all about.  The problem is not talking about the Kerouac estate.

        Tonight, as Bill Gargan reminded us, is indeed the anniversary of

Jack Kerouac's last conscious night on earth.  It was a Sunday night,

October 19, 1969, and according to Stella, he went out into his backyard in

Florida to look at the stars--a thing he loved to do.  The next night,

Monday night October 20, he would be unconscious from loss of blood in St.

Anthony's Hospital.  So let us indeed honor Jack by peacemaking tonight, and

remember that we're all headed for the same place Jack is now (and Jan is

now, too).  "I had no time to hate," wrote Emily Dickinson.  I have no time

to hate either.  Let's talk quietly and offer facts and insights, not

insults and accusations.  I will happily abide by that, if my 3 opponents

(and my silent opponent Mr. Sampas) will also.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 03:54:07 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      di Prima

 

2 from Diane di Prima...

 

TASSAJARA, 1969

 

Even Buddha is lost in this land

the immensity

takes us all with it, pulverizes, & takes us in

 

Bodhidharma came from the west.

Coyote met him

 

 

PROPHETISSA

 

                                "Two from One

                                Three from Two

                                and out of the Three

                                the Four, as the first

                                                ~Maria the Prophet

                                                (2nd cent. alchemist)

 

Two form One:

 

know this wind as

                        fire.  Flame

at the heart of stone.

                        Leaping arc

from black dwarf star that spins

the double helix.  And know

 

this fire as talk.  The word.

Bursting in cunt or asshole

                                bursting

in cupped and tensing mouth

                                The

fucking word.  Heartfire of stars as they

circle and lean toward touch

                                hold orbit

spiraling

                & reach

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:16:21 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Honoring Jack

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As for me, I will remember Jack's life and death as I usually do this

month by rereading "October in Railroad Earth" and thinking of Jack and

Neal when I hear their train making a late run to Hollister and Gilroy.

Just listen to that lonesome whistle blow . . .

 

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:31:48 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Albert Saijo

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Albert Saijo who with Jack and Lew Welch produced the haiku for "Trip

Trap" will be reading from his new book "OUTSPEAKS" at City Lights in SF

on Tuesday Nov, 11 at 7pm.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:27:14 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: estate

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>our own opinions.  When Sampas begins to produce something worthy or

>respect, then we will.  In the mean time, why not call on Sampas to

>publish every letter or communication he has ever issued about Gerry

...

> Has he ever let any

>copyrights lapse?  Exactly what has Sampas done for the public?

 

     amen... was about to say the same thing.. you know, all you sampas

defenders keep coming down on us who question his actions, but the fact

remains that this man who seems to have an abominous influence over so

many people and is the executor of the K estate has not, after all this

time, properly carried through with jack's wishes for his archives,

there is a problem.  John's actions speak his motives and priorities,

Paul, and someone who constantly hinders the efforts of those who want

to preserve the archives doesn't demand much respect from myself and,

i'm sure, quite a few others on this list.

 

      ty

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:49:07 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      More Di Prima

MIME-Version: 1.0

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FOR PIGPEN

Velvet at the edge of the tongue,

at the edge of the brain,it was

velvet.  At the edge of history.

 

Sound was light.  Like tracing

ancient letter w/yr toe on the

floor of the ballroom.

They came & went, hotel guests

like the Great Gatsby.

And wondered at the music.

        Sound was light.

 

jagged sweeps of discordant

Light. Aurora borealis over

some cemetery.  A bark. A howl.

At the edge of history & there was

        no time

 

shouts. trace circles

of breath.  All futures.  Time

was this light & sound

spilled out of it.

 

        Flickered

& fell under blue windows.  False drawn.

And too much wind.

 

        We come round.

Make circles.  Blank as a clock.

Spill velvet damage on the edge

of history.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:57:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Binu Paulose <paulose@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>

Subject:      to jack,

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

this is from his Orizaba 210 Blues.  I think about this because I'm high

as hell on caffeine and I have a Physics midterm tomorrow, so...

 

39th CHORUS

 

IX

Out on the highway I thumbed a ride

into Buffalo and I put the bum

on the guy for something to eat

- 'Eat in my drugstore' -

So we went in the back

And he had corn on the cob

And boiled potatos, 'Say fellow

I always hear people talk

about morphine, what's it look

like?' -he shows me-he

had a key a cabinet and

he had bottles of hundreds

quartergrains halfgrains

pantapon delauddit everything

and soon as he tended

the customers I emptied the

bottles-got outa there pretty

quick, bought a safety pin

in Buffalo and took a shot

in the toilet

 

Binu

e-mail: paulose@acsu.buffalo.edu

ICQ # : 3292154

 

"Hip changes a lot.  What's hip is what's cool.  Honest.

Straightforward.  Has some integrity to it.  Interesting.  Original.

Unique.  Special.  Dazzling.  Sexy.  I get to decide what's hip, sitting

here in my coat and tie." -- Jann Wenner, founder, editor, and publisher,

"Rolling Stone"

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:55:54 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      NEW WEBSITE TO VISIT.

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hello everybody.

There is a new site that I have created.  It is called The Beat

Literature Page.  It was designed to honor...you!  Yes indeed not

Kerouac and our greatest muses but rather your own original creations. I

am looking for poetry, essays, comments, and short literature, or

photographs.

The only problem with the site is there aren't enough submissions to get

it going.  When my web server converts to FTP and allows me access to

their cgi-bin I will also be adding an add-a-story page where all of us

can create one journey.

Please visit me.  I am lonely in cyberspace watching my counter only

progress from friends and family.

the URL is http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

If at first you don't get on please try again.  The server I am on is

switching from http to FTP so it is kind of a problem.

Thank you once again.

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:09:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Remi Broncouer - Henri Cru

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Sarah,

 

        Bear with us Sarah....all this will pass and we'll get back to Beat

things - but always woven in with some kind of distraction - usually

interesting! ....unlike the estate battle, which as Attilla pointed out

could be very interesting and engaging, but not as cooked up among the

current crew.

 

        Remi Broncouer is Henri Cru, a friend of Jack's from Horace Mann,

the pre-Columbia prep school that they both attended. Like Jack, he became a

merchant seaman, but he stuck at it. Henri introduced Jack to his first wife

Edie Parker.

 

        One of the main reasons that Jack went to San Francisco in 1947 was

that Henri was living there. In 1957-58 they were living together in New

York just as OTR was published and hit big.

 

        Antoine

                                R.I.P Jack and Neal and Allen and Bill and

Stella and Leo and Memere and Gerard and Jan and young Billy and old beat

Huncke and Lew Welch and Lord Buckley and Lenny Bruce and...

 

                        ****************************************

 

>On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Binu Paulose wrote:

> 

>> can you folks fill me in on what's happened thus far on the mailing list?

>> also are there any upcoming events regarding any readings or such??

>> 

>> Binu

>> e-mail: paulose@acsu.buffalo.edu

>> ICQ # : 3292154

>> 

> 

>Binu, I am probably not the one who should answer this b/c I've only

>been on the list for a few days, but there is a viscious battle going on

>about what should be done with the Kerouac estate. Someone else will be

>able to fill you in better than I. As for any readings, I don't know, but

>I know that a couple weeks ago there was a Kerouac festival and I am

>wondering if anyone went to that, and if so what it was like.

> 

>I also want to know if anyone can tell me who Remi Broncuer (in OTR) is

>in real life.

> 

>This I say not to offend anyone (simply curiosity): If those of you

>involved in the estate battle have each others personal e-mail address,

>why is the fight being broadcasted on beat-l? Are you trying to prove

>something to the rest of us?

> 

>Sarah

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:19:41 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric R Wood <wooderi1@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject:      Video?

In-Reply-To:  <19971020045554.17280.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Keith Medline" at

              Oct 19, 97 09:55:54 pm

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I would like to know what people know about the OTR video I just found

advertised.  Is it worth it? It came out in June of 1990 if that helps.

Thanks!

Eric Wood

wooderi1@pilot.msu.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:16:28 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: October....

Comments: To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@odyssee.net>

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Antoine Maloney wrote:

> 

> James,

> 

>         I have the recordings of "October..." and they are among my most

> favorites things; but I've never read it.

 

Antoine,

 

October is in in the Kerouac Reader, I believe.  Originally in Evergreen

Review as "Railroad Earth".  If anyone is selling that Evergreen please

let me know.  Do you have a recording that is more complete than the

piece from the box set?

 

James

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:20:05 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Remi Broncouer - Henri Cru

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Antoine Maloney wrote:

 

R.I.P Jack and Neal and Allen and Bill and

> Stella and Leo and Memere and Gerard and Jan and young Billy and old beat

> Huncke and Lew Welch and Lord Buckley and Lenny Bruce and...

> 

Very nicely said . . . we can all fill in the others, the famous ones as

well as the ones  far fewer of us knew.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 06:29:42 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Honoring Jack

 

as for me - i shall spend every free moment tomorrow reading some of his

poetry and some of Big Sur, listening to him read and meditating...

 

LUCIEN MIDNIGHT

 

Dying is ecstasy

I'm not a teacher, not a

Sage, not a Roshi, not a

writer or master or even

a giggling dharma bum I'm

my mother's son & my mother

is the universe -------

What is this universe

        but a lot of waves

And a craving desire

        is a wave

Belonging to a wave

         in a world of waves

So why put any down,

        wave?

Come on wave, WAVE!

The heehaw's dobbin

        spring hoho

Is a sad lonely yurk

        for your love

Wave lover

 

And what is God?

The unspeakable, the untellable

------

Rejoice in the Lamb, sang

Christopher Smart, who

drives me crazy, because

he 's so smart, and I'm

so smart, and both of us

are crazy.

 

No --- what is God?

The impossible, the impeachable

Unimpeachable Prezi-dent

of the Pepsodent Universe

But with no body & no brain

no business and no tie

no candle and no high

no wise and no smart guy

no nothing, no no-nothing,

no anything, no-word, yes-word,

everything, anything, God,

the guy that ain't a guy,

the thing that can't be

and can

and is

and isn't

 

Kayo Mullins is always yelling

and stealing old men's shoes

 

Moon comes home drunk, kerplunk,

Somebody hit him with a pisspot

 

Major Hoople's always harrumfing

Egad kaff kaff all that

Showing little kids fly kites right

And breaking windows of fame

 

Blemish me Lil Abner is gone

His brother is okay, Daisy Mae

and the Wolf-Gal

 

        Ah who cares?

        Subjects make me sick

        all i want is C'est Foi

        Hope one time

        bullshit in the tree

 

I've had enough of follin me

And making silly imagery

        Harrumph me kaff

        I think I'll take off

        For Cat and Fish

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 05:37:28 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      back and buried

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howdy all.

first full day back from week, 8 stop road trip. came home to discover i

had 796 messages awaitin' me.

road dust gives power

to finger

to delete key

glad to be back. hope to catch up;

perhaps,

just maybe,

i

can

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:02:32 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      beat(en) horses

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after 14 days absent from list and home returning from road trip, i download

796 posts, at least a third of which is the same old vitriolic tinged debate

devolving into name calling and what have you.

my finger has a blister on it from using the delete key over and over again

i'm back

don't know for how long

howling in early morning light from computer screen.

173 messages to go.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:31:43 +0100

Reply-To:     dcaridade@geocities.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         dcaridade <dcaridade@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      Re: una poesia scritta in italiano da Lawrence Ferlinghetti.

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----------

> From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:una poesia scritta in italiano da Lawrence Ferlinghetti.

 

Ciao RINALDO,

 

I'm going to write in english 'cause my written italian is pretty bad,

 

well I'd like to know if there are more of Ferlinghetti's poetry written

directly in italian? Could you post more? Is there a book?

 

thanks,

 

daniel caridade

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:15:04 -0400

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From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Honoring Jack

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199710200628420353@classic.msn.com>

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                A POEM

        The trash is out of sight and buried,

        The garden ploughed,

        And on the stove an enormous pot

        Of pork and beans.

 

        Jack Kerouac - Some of the Dharma - book six

 

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:48:02 +0100

Reply-To:     dcaridade@geocities.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         dcaridade <dcaridade@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Memory Babe

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Hi,

Being from Portugal, I find it very difficult to get in touch with the

latests editions from and around the beat g. writers.

 

One I'm getting a bit curious, after all that's been going on in this list,

is Gerry Nicosia's "Memory Babe: A Critical Biography of Jack Keroauc", can

anyone tell me how can I get it? who is the publisher? All that stuff?

 

Maybe Gerry himself could help me?

 

thanks,

daniel caridade

dcaridade@geocities.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:58:11 -0400

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From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: October....

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James asked: "Do you have a recording  (of Railroad Earth) that is more

complete than the piece from the box set?"

 

        Heard it first on the Beat Generation box set and more recently

bought the Jack box set, but only have those. Do the two parts that appear

on th Jack box set represent all of the text? Do other recordings of any of

this exist?

 

        In 1994 my son gave me a boot called "Beat Jazz: pictures from the

gone world" which has some other great stuff also ...a segment from "Pull my

daisy" with Jack talking about cockroaches and two pieces from a great late

fifties record called Jazz Canto; Bob Dorough doing Ferlinghetti's "Dog" and

Roy Glenn doing Phillip Whalen's "big high song to somebody" ....more

beatiful railroad images of the Phoebe Snow and the A train.

 

        Also had Coleman Hawkins wonderful solo piece "Picasso", I think,

some Sun Ra, one of Moondog's pieces and Woody Leafer's "there's a drum in

my typewriter..."  I'll be revisiting them today.

 

               Antoine

 

                        *******************

 

>Antoine Maloney wrote:

>> 

>> James,

>> 

>>         I have the recordings of "October..." and they are among my most

>> favorites things; but I've never read it.

> 

>Antoine,

> 

>October is in in the Kerouac Reader, I believe.  Originally in Evergreen

>Review as "Railroad Earth".  If anyone is selling that Evergreen please

>let me know.  Do you have a recording that is more complete than the

>piece from the box set?

> 

>James

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:02:23 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      IL GRANDE MAESTRO.

In-Reply-To:  <3446C53D.31E0@sunflower.com>

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                IL GRANDE MAESTRO               by Giancarlo Tenenti

 

                Il grande maestro

                mi ha raccontato

                il grande maestro

                mi ha insegnato

 

                all'improvviso

                il grande maestro

                e' morto

 

 

---

Giancarlo Tenenti, venetian poet & painter,

 

poesia stampata nel dicembre 1988

isola di San Lazzaro

a Venezia, tipografia Armena

---

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:14:53 -0400

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From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: October....

In-Reply-To:  <344AF73B.7A0B@pacbell.net>

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It's also in it's completed form in Lonesome Traveller.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:16:32 -0500

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From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      for dear memory of John Kerouac

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Elegiac Feelings American

for the dear memory of John Kerouac

by Gregory Corso

excerpts

 

1

How inseperable you and the America you saw yet was

        never there to see; you and America, like the

        tree and the ground, are one the same; yet how

        like a palm tree in the state of Oregon ... dead

        ere it blossomed, like a snow polar loping the

        Miami --

How so that which you were or hoped to be, and the

        America not, the America you saw yet could

        not see

 

<snip>

 

Alas, Jack, seems I cannot requiem thee without

        requieming America, and thatn's one requiem

        I shall not presume, for as long as I live there'll

        be no requiems for me

For though the tree dies the tree is born anew, only until

        the tree dies forever and never a tree born

        anew ... shall the ground die too

Yours the eyes that saw, the heart that felt, the voice that

        sang and cried; and as long as America shall

        live, though ye old Kerouac body hath died,

        yet shall you live ... for indeed ours was a time

        of prophecy without death as a consequence ...

        for indeed after us came the time of assassins,

        and who'll doubt thy last words "After me ...

        the deluge."

 

<snip>

 

2

 

<snip>

 

The second greatest cause of human death ... is the

        acquiring of property

No American life is worth an acre of America ... if No

        Trespassing and guarding mastiffs can't tell you

        shotguns will

So, sweet seeker, just what America sought you anyway?

        Know that today there are millions of Americans

        seeking America ... know that even with all

        those eye-expanding chemicals - only more of

        what is not there do they see

 

<snip>

 

Look unto Moses, no prophet every reached the dreamed of

        lands ... ah but your eyes are dead ... nor the

        America beyond your last dreamed hill hovers

        real

 

3

 

How alike our hearts and time and dying, how our America

        out there and in our hearts insatiable yet

        overflowing hallelujahs of poesy and hope

How we knew to feel each dawn, to ooh and aah each

        golden sorrow and helplessness coast to coast

        in our search for whatever joy steadfast never

        there nowever grey

Yea the America the America unstained and never

        revolutioned for liberty ever in us free, the

        America in us - unboundaried and unhistoried,

        we the America, we the fathers of that America,

        the America you Johnnyappleseeded, the

        America I heralded, an America not there, an

        America soon to be

 

The prophet affects the state, and the state affects the

        prophet -- What happened to you, O friend,

        happened to America, and we know what

        happened to America -- the stain ... the stains,

O and yet when it's asked of you "What happened to him?"

        I say "What happened to America has happened

        him -- the two were inseperable"  Like the wind

        to the sky is the voice to the word ...

And now that voice is gone, and now the word is bone, and

        the America is going, the planet boned

A man can have everything he desires in his home yet have

        nothing outside the door -- for a feeling man, a

        poet man, such an outside serves only to make

        home a place in which to hang oneself

And us ones, sweet friend, we've always brought America

        home with us -- and never like dirty laundry, even

        with all the stains

And through the front door, lovingly cushioned in our

        hearts; where we sat down and told it our

        dreams of beauty

        hopeful that it would leave our homes beautiful

And what has happened to our dream of beauteous

        America, Jack?

 

<snip>

 

"What happened to him?"  "What happened to you?"  Death

        happened him; a gypped life happened; a God

        gone sick happened; a dream nightmared; a

        youth armied; an army massacred; the father

        wants to eat the son, the son feeds his stone,

        but the father no get stoned

And you, Jack, poor Jack, watched your father die, your

        America die, your God die, your body die, die

        die die; and today fathers are watching their

        sons die, and their sons are watching babies die,

        why? Why?  How we both asked WHY?

O the sad sad awfulness of it all

 

<snip>

 

Aye, what happened to you, dear friend, compassionate

        friend, is what is happening to everyone and

        thing of planet the clamorous sadly desperate

        planet now one voice less ... expendable as the

        wind ... gone, and who'll now blow away the

        awful miasma of sick, sick and dying

        earthflesh-soul America

 

When you went on the road looking for America you found

        only what you put there and a man seeking gold

        finds the only America there is to find; and his

        investmentment and a poet's investment ... the same

        when comes the crash, and it's crashing, yet

        the windows are tight, are not for jumping; from

        hell none e'er fell

 

4

 

<snip>

 

The ArcAngel Raphael was I to you

And I put the Cross of the Lord of Angels

upon you ... there

on the eve of a new world to explore

And you were flashed upon the old and darkling day

a Beat Christ-boy ... bearing the gentle roundness of things

insisting the soul was round not square

And soon ... behind thee

there came a-following

the children of flowers.

 

 

north beach, s.f. 1969 in Mindfield

 

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:32:15 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971020015245.00696914@pop.pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 21.52 19/10/97 -0400,

"Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>wrote:

>At 08:07 PM 10/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>> >I have a number of the Vol. I, No. 2 which I will make available for

sample

>>> >copies (to my detractors and all).

>> 

>>please send me a sample copy,

>>                a detractor

>>                patricia

>>903 sunset dr.

>>lawrence, ks 66044

>> 

>My pleasure, hope you enjoy it and impart from it some of my good

>intentions. thanks, Paul...

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

me too, it's possible also to send one copy to me? thanks

 

        Rinaldo Rasa

        via Morlaiter 2

        30173 Venezia-Mestre

        ITALY

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:41:54 -0400

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From:         Cosmic Baseball Association <cosmic@CLARK.NET>

Subject:      October 20

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In memory of JK...

 

from Chorus No. 238

Mexico City Blues

 

 

"Money is the root of all evil"

For I will

Write

In my will

"I regret that I was not able

To love money more."

 

 

Are you resting in peace, Jack?

 

 

Regards,

Andrew Lampert

cosmic@clark.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:43:04 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      howl with a whine chaser

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on a lighter note, i just returned via bus to and from music and spoken

word event, and couldn't help myself i had to write this..

 

howl with a whine chaser:

   i saw the best part of my mind destroyed by sleep deprivation,

   starving

   hysterical naked

   dragging myself through the greyhound stations looking for my

   angry

   luggage

   angelheaded hipsterette burning for the ancient heavenly

   connectionto

   louisville and back  in the stary dynamo in the greyhound

   machinery at

   night

   who poverty and tatters and howllowed eyed sat up wishing to

   be smoking

   marijuana in the supernatural darkness of cramped seats and

   angry

   seatmates driving past the tops of cities contemplating bladder

   control,

   and patience.

   who bared my ass to heaven while trying to take a leak outside

   of

   cramped and longlined service stops, wishing for the toilet

   paper,

   who passed through yet more bus stations with burning red eyes

   hallucinating arkansas and blake-light tragedy for vertigo when

   reading

   on the road

   who was expelled from the port authority waiting room by angry

   mop and

   broom holding scholars of the war against further grime,

   who refused to cower in unshaven rooms in underwear, praying

   for enough

   money to burn in wastebaskets and listening to the terror

   through the

   aisles

   ______

   29 hrs down and 27 hrs back, my own insomniacathon of the dark

   soul of

   greyhound night.

   _____

   who saw perry stand on one leg w/fez on head to prove sobriety

   sufficent

   for one more vodka

   who saw luther in shock and amazement staring at our power

   pumpkin

   who bickered with and was awestruck by jim's reading, kitchen

   table and

   twice told

   who not only recorded secret tapes of lies and exonerations of

   fellow

   busmates

   but also the rantings of the mad poets at the kitchen table

  .....yadayadayada

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:45:32 +0000

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From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: for dear memory of John Kerouac

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thanks, dave: this, in tandem with oct in rr earth this is my own

readings done on this date.

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

> Elegiac Feelings American

> for the dear memory of John Kerouac

> by Gregory Corso

> excerpts

> 

> 1

> How inseperable you and the America you saw yet was

>         never there to see; you and America, like the

>         tree and the ground, are one the same; yet how

>         like a palm tree in the state of Oregon ... dead

>         ere it blossomed, like a snow polar loping the

>         Miami --

> How so that which you were or hoped to be, and the

>         America not, the America you saw yet could

>         not see

> 

> <snip>

> 

> Alas, Jack, seems I cannot requiem thee without

>         requieming America, and thatn's one requiem

>         I shall not presume, for as long as I live there'll

>         be no requiems for me

> For though the tree dies the tree is born anew, only until

>         the tree dies forever and never a tree born

>         anew ... shall the ground die too

> Yours the eyes that saw, the heart that felt, the voice that

>         sang and cried; and as long as America shall

>         live, though ye old Kerouac body hath died,

>         yet shall you live ... for indeed ours was a time

>         of prophecy without death as a consequence ...

>         for indeed after us came the time of assassins,

>         and who'll doubt thy last words "After me ...

>         the deluge."

> 

> <snip>

> 

> 2

> 

> <snip>

> 

> The second greatest cause of human death ... is the

>         acquiring of property

> No American life is worth an acre of America ... if No

>         Trespassing and guarding mastiffs can't tell you

>         shotguns will

> So, sweet seeker, just what America sought you anyway?

>         Know that today there are millions of Americans

>         seeking America ... know that even with all

>         those eye-expanding chemicals - only more of

>         what is not there do they see

> 

> <snip>

> 

> Look unto Moses, no prophet every reached the dreamed of

>         lands ... ah but your eyes are dead ... nor the

>         America beyond your last dreamed hill hovers

>         real

> 

> 3

> 

> How alike our hearts and time and dying, how our America

>         out there and in our hearts insatiable yet

>         overflowing hallelujahs of poesy and hope

> How we knew to feel each dawn, to ooh and aah each

>         golden sorrow and helplessness coast to coast

>         in our search for whatever joy steadfast never

>         there nowever grey

> Yea the America the America unstained and never

>         revolutioned for liberty ever in us free, the

>         America in us - unboundaried and unhistoried,

>         we the America, we the fathers of that America,

>         the America you Johnnyappleseeded, the

>         America I heralded, an America not there, an

>         America soon to be

> 

> The prophet affects the state, and the state affects the

>         prophet -- What happened to you, O friend,

>         happened to America, and we know what

>         happened to America -- the stain ... the stains,

> O and yet when it's asked of you "What happened to him?"

>         I say "What happened to America has happened

>         him -- the two were inseperable"  Like the wind

>         to the sky is the voice to the word ...

> And now that voice is gone, and now the word is bone, and

>         the America is going, the planet boned

> A man can have everything he desires in his home yet have

>         nothing outside the door -- for a feeling man, a

>         poet man, such an outside serves only to make

>         home a place in which to hang oneself

> And us ones, sweet friend, we've always brought America

>         home with us -- and never like dirty laundry, even

>         with all the stains

> And through the front door, lovingly cushioned in our

>         hearts; where we sat down and told it our

>         dreams of beauty

>         hopeful that it would leave our homes beautiful

> And what has happened to our dream of beauteous

>         America, Jack?

> 

> <snip>

> 

> "What happened to him?"  "What happened to you?"  Death

>         happened him; a gypped life happened; a God

>         gone sick happened; a dream nightmared; a

>         youth armied; an army massacred; the father

>         wants to eat the son, the son feeds his stone,

>         but the father no get stoned

> And you, Jack, poor Jack, watched your father die, your

>         America die, your God die, your body die, die

>         die die; and today fathers are watching their

>         sons die, and their sons are watching babies die,

>         why? Why?  How we both asked WHY?

> O the sad sad awfulness of it all

> 

> <snip>

> 

> Aye, what happened to you, dear friend, compassionate

>         friend, is what is happening to everyone and

>         thing of planet the clamorous sadly desperate

>         planet now one voice less ... expendable as the

>         wind ... gone, and who'll now blow away the

>         awful miasma of sick, sick and dying

>         earthflesh-soul America

> 

> When you went on the road looking for America you found

>         only what you put there and a man seeking gold

>         finds the only America there is to find; and his

>         investmentment and a poet's investment ... the same

>         when comes the crash, and it's crashing, yet

>         the windows are tight, are not for jumping; from

>         hell none e'er fell

> 

> 4

> 

> <snip>

> 

> The ArcAngel Raphael was I to you

> And I put the Cross of the Lord of Angels

> upon you ... there

> on the eve of a new world to explore

> And you were flashed upon the old and darkling day

> a Beat Christ-boy ... bearing the gentle roundness of things

> insisting the soul was round not square

> And soon ... behind thee

> there came a-following

> the children of flowers.

> 

> north beach, s.f. 1969 in Mindfield

> 

> dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:59:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      so in America

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the connections between Jack and America in the Corso poem and the

connection of the "I" in Howl to the Beat Generation itself gave new

meanings to this wonderful and famous ending:

 

OTR

 

"So in America when the sun goes down and I sit on the old broken-down

river pier watching the long, long skies over New Jersey and sense all

that raw land that rolls in one unbelievable huge bulge over to the West

Coast, and all that road going, all the people dreaming in the immensity

of it, and in Iowa I know by now the children must be crying in the land

where they let children cry, and tonight the stars'll be out, and don't

you know that God is Pooh Bear? the evening star must be drooping and

shedding her sparkler dims on the prairie, which is just before the

coming of complete night that blesses the earth, darkens all the rivers,

cups the peaks and folds the final shore in, and nobody, knows what's

going to happen to anybody besides the forlorn rags of growing old, I

think of Dean Moriarty, I even think of Old Dean Moriarty the father we

never found, I think of Dean Moriarty."

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:23:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>me too, it's possible also to send one copy to me? thanks

> 

>        Rinaldo Rasa

>        via Morlaiter 2

>        30173 Venezia-Mestre

>        ITALY

> 

 

 

Rinaldo, because of the high cost of overseas postage I would need you to

send at least a couple of dollars to cover this and I will be glad to send

it to you or anyone alse on this list. Thanks, Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:10:35 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: for dear memory of John Kerouac

 

thank you David, brought tears to my eyes... sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:36:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Barnes & Noble not shelving Kerouac!

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199710201410400338@classic.msn.com>

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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Many of the Barnes and Nobles around NYC are no longer putting the works

of Jack Kerouac on their shelves.  They still stock a good assortment but

unlike every other author in the fiction section, at several stores I

have seen a sign in the K's where Kerouac should be, saying "For Jack

Kerouac, see Bookkseller"  At at least three of the superstores, the

policy is now to keep all the Kerouac works either in the stockroom or on

the storage shelves high above the actual bookshelves.

 

Kerouac's books apparently get shoplifted a lot because they are all

trade paperbacks that are relatively expensive.

 

Still this is no way to treat a great author.  They dont keep Mark Twain

or Ernest Hemingway's works back in the stockroom, with a sign saying for

these works see a bookkseller.  Someone wanting to browse some Kerouac at

these stores (Union Square, 6th Ave,. Astor Place among others) cannot

easily do so.  They must ask the bookseller to go get a copy of a Kerouac

out of the backroom, and then give it back.

 

This is horrible...*arg*

 

Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:27:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: wsb

In-Reply-To:  <344A6038.568@sunflower.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Matthew L Potter wrote:

> >

> > anyone have directions for making burroughs'

> > inventions?  I'd be grateful.thanks. matt

> >

> > mlpotter@student.umass.edu

> 

> i know somewhere on the net and in print are different directions. I

> have no immediate knowledge where. If i recall i will post to you.  I do

> remember one remark that william was disappointed that more people

> didn't actually do it, but was satisfied reading and asking about it.

> patricia

> 

 

If you can find it, there's a now out-of-print book:

 

Dream Machine Plans

Brion Gysin

Published by A K Pr Distribution

Publication date: January 1994

ISBN: 1871744504

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:52:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      No Subject

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Gerry Nicosia: Would you please send me a sample copy of the  "Kerouac

Quarterly"   Thank you.  My name and address is as follows:

   Donald E. Winters

   5705 43rd Avenue South

   Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417.

Thank you very much.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:53:23 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: so in America

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hi, I am again going to make a shameless plug for my website.  It has a

sound clip of Kerouac reading the parts of the quote below.  Please

visit and contribute to my growing page.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

 

 

 

>the connections between Jack and America in the Corso poem and the

>connection of the "I" in Howl to the Beat Generation itself gave new

>meanings to this wonderful and famous ending:

> 

>OTR

> 

"So in America when the sun goes down and I sit on the old broken-down

river pier watching the long, long skies over New Jersey and sense all

that raw land that rolls in one unbelievable huge bulge over to the

WestCoast, and all that road going, all the people dreaming in the

immensity

of it, and in Iowa I know by now the children must be crying in the land

where they let children cry, and tonight the stars'll be out, and don't

you know that God is Pooh Bear? the evening star must be drooping and

shedding her sparkler dims on the prairie, which is just before the

coming of complete night that blesses the earth, darkens all the rivers,

cups the peaks and folds the final shore in, and nobody, knows what's

going to happen to anybody besides the forlorn rags of growing old, I

think of Dean Moriarty, I even think of Old Dean Moriarty the father

wenever found, I think of Dean Moriarty."

 

>dbr

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:59:02 +0000

Reply-To:     jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      Call me a voyeur

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Dear Listers,

 

It is impossible to overstate the relevance of the Estate Debate to the

Beat-L Listserv.

 

I am reiterating my position here in response to several recent postings

to the contrary.

 

As I suspected all along, as more posts come in from the major players,

they each show their true colors in their own way, whether that be by a

tight argument or sloppy shot from the hip.

 

Anyone uninterested should delete or unsubscribe. Period.

 

 

*** JOHN HASBROUCK

*** http://www.tezcat.com/~jhasbro

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:57:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald E. Winters" <winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Paul: I would very much like to receive a sample copy of the "Kerouac

Quarterly".  My name and address are as follows:

   Donald E. Winters

   5705 43rd Avenue South

   Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417

Thank you very much.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:07:37 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: October....

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Antoine Maloney wrote:

> 

> James asked: "Do you have a recording  (of Railroad Earth) that is more

> complete than the piece from the box set?"

> 

>         Heard it first on the Beat Generation box set and more recently

> bought the Jack box set, but only have those. Do the two parts that appear

> on th Jack box set represent all of the text? Do other recordings of any of

> this exist?

 

Antoine,

 

The recordings I have heard are a fairly small snippet from October.

Last October we talked about this piece abit and Marie Countryman posted

some nice long sections.  I would be hard put to find those in my old

files however.

 

As for other recordings, I don't know.  One of the more learned JK

scholars out there might have an answer.

 

Jame Stauffer>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:02:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack's last letter

In-Reply-To:  <199710192331.QAA16421@germany.it.earthlink.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>i'm very interested in seeing letter also. is there any way you could post it

 

>Dear Marlene and others who have evinced an interest in Jack's last letter:

>        First off, in answer to your question, NO, ANN CHARTERS WILL NOT

>PUBLISH THIS LETTER IN THE SECOND VOLUME OF KEROUAC'S SELECTED LETTERS.

>        The letter we are speaking of was written (typed) by Jack Kerouac to

 

 

Gerry,

 

You are absolutely incredible. This post is not describably in the brief

minute I have before showing up to work with some 2nd and 3rd graders at a

nearby elementary school--helping with writing in their computer lab.

 

This is what makes all this BS worthwhile. Good, solid, research by a fine

writer--and a friend.

 

More later,

 

joe

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:23:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      sunflower sutra while listening to Kicks joy darkness

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Sunflower Sutra

by Allen Ginsberg

excerpts

 

I walked on the banks of the tincan banana dock and sat down

        under the huge shade of a Southern Pacific locomotive to

        look at the sunset over the box house hills and cry.

Jack Kerouac sat beside me on a busted rusty iron pole,

        companion, we thought the same thoughts of the soul,

        bleak and blue and sad-eyed, surrounded by the gnarled

        steel roots of trees of machinery.

The oily water on the river mirrored the red sky, sun sank on top

        of final Frisco peaks, no fish in that stream, no hermit in

        those mounts, just ourselves rheumy-eyed and hungover

        like old bums on the riverbank, tired and wily.

Look at the Sunflower, he said, there was a dead gray shadow

        against the sky, big as a man, sitting dry on top of a pile of

        ancient sawdust --

-- I rushed up enchanted -- it was my first sunflower, memories

        of Blake -- my visions -- Harlem

 

<snip>

 

So I grabbed up the skeleton thick sunflower and stuck it at my

        side like a scepter,

and deliver my sermon to my soul, and Jack's soul too, and anyone

        who'll listen,

-- We're not our skin of grime, we're not our dread bleak dusty

        imageless locomotive, we're all beautiful golden sunflowers

        inside, we're blessed by our own seed & golden hairy naked

        accomplishment-bodies growing into mad black formal sun-

        flowers in the sunset, spied on by our eyes under the shadow

        of the mad locomotive riverbank sunset Frisco hilly tincan

        evening sitdown vision.

 

Berkeley 1955

 

thinking of Jack today ---- (obviously <grin>)

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

(the sunflower state <bigger grin>)

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:49:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      A REPEAT --  Saw Jack Kerouac at the grocery store

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

RACE --- wrote:

> 

> > Subject: Re: Saw Jack Kerouac at the grocery store

> > Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 11:32:59 -0500

> > From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@sunflower.com>

> > To: race@midusa.net

> > References: <336A1529.3DD8@midusa.net>

> >

> > oh god what a beautiful post? you should list it

> > p

> > RACE --- wrote:

> > >

> > > as i was pumping five bucks

> > > into my 1974

> > > guzzler

> > > i gazed across the avenue

> > > to see Jack

> > > jumping out of the back

> > > of an ugly green

> > > pickup truck

> > > with Vegas plates

> > > and

> > > I quickly paid for

> > > my gasoline

> > > and

> > > zoooomed across

> > > to the grocery market

> > > i got a glimpse of him

> > > saw him grabbing

> > > four cans of spaghetti

> > > sauce at 99cents

> > > grabbed four myself.

> > >

> > > then in the frozen

> > > foods he was a

> > > blur

> > > i grabbed

> > > green giant broc & cauli

> > > green giant corn

> > > food club california mix

> > > and some

> > > azparagus

> > > for good measure

> > >

> > > chased him down

> > > and he threw

> > > three huge potatoes at me

> > > which i caught

> > > at 2.42 cents a pound

> > >

> > > lost him then

> > > got my lentils and Uncle Ben's

> > > cause i liked the name

> > > better than Minute Rice

> > > two bags of sghatti noods

> > >

> > > and other junk

> > > when i saw him heading

> > > thru

> > > the checkout stand

> > > i checked out

> > > at $32.15

> > > almost fainted at the

> > > bargain

> > > zooomed off for

> > > cheap cigarettes

> > > and caught up with

> > > him

> > > at the House of Sight and Sound

> > > trapped in a CD case

> > > for $25.00

> > > but had to pass

> > > and took

> > > Mimi and Richard Farina

> > > for $16.00

> > > instead.....

> > >

> > > hope you're having A Beautiful Day !!!

> > > things are slowly drying up in

> > > the puddles here.

> > >

> > > david

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:24:19 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Honoring Jack

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Poem

     by Jack Kerouac

 

Anyway the time has come to explain

     the Golden Eternity

and how the iridescent paraphernalia of radiating candles

     ceases

     when mentation ceases

because I know what it's like to die,

     to cease mentating, one day I died,

I fainted actually, I was stooping smelling

strapping flowers in the cosmos yard

of my mother's cozy flower house

in Auffinsham Shire, in Queens,

and stood up fast taking deep breath,

    blood rushed from head, next thing I knew

    woke up flat on my back in the grassy sun

    and had been out fine minutes

 

And I had seen the Golden Eternity.

  The Lamb was alone with the Lamb.

  The Babe was alone with the Baby Lamb.

  The Shroud was alone with the Golden Shroud.

 

I was alone with God, who

  is God, who was Me,

 who was All,

        he stood high on a hill

       overlooking Mexico City

        radiating messages

       out of a white Tiot

 

1958, Northport

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:19:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Russell duPont <dupbooks@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Poetry catalogue

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

My new catalogue, Poets and Poetry, can be viewed at my website at

 

                www.tiac.net/users/dupbooks

 

Russell duPont

 

                                Russell R. duPont

                                   Bookseller

                                41 Star Street

                                Whitman, MA 02382

                                 781/447-4091

                                dupbooks@tiac.net

                       Web Site. http://www.tiac.net/users/dupbooks

 

 

                               Specializing in books

                             and exhibition catalogues

                          on the fine and decorative arts.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:43:14 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      The estate battle

Comments: To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199710200032.RAA12187@germany.it.earthlink.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

The Estate Battle is or should be enormously important to all who value

Kerouac.  This list *is* the proper place for its discussion.  As long as

its done civilly and without name calling.

 

 

There *is* a huge amount of money involved here.  If I were Nicosia, and

I could get Memere Kerouac's will thrown out, establishing Jan as heir,

and thus become in effect literary executor of Jack's estate, I would do

the following:

 

1. Renegotiate the "On the Road" movie rights.  If Nicosia is right, the

Sampases didnt really have the rights to sell movie options, therefore

any current movie contract would be invalid.  Make Coppola and Paramount

shell out a few million more bucks.

 

2. Renegotiate any other rights associated with the OTR movie, including

the mass market paperback OTR movie tie-in (OTR will likely become a best

seller again when/if a movie comes out, so this is worth a hell of a lot

of money if Nicosia can renegotiate)

 

3. Fire Doug Brinkley as editor of Kerouac's Journals.  No one would be

more qualified than Nicosia himself to do the editing, and he can

generate the prestige and the editor's fees for himself.

 

4. Get at least a million from a library for Kerouac's papers.  If Im

Nicosa I want my hundred grand cut to pay the lawyers fees!

 

5. *Insist* that Ann Charters include Jack's last letter in the second

volume of letters, no matter what John Sampas says.

 

There are millions of dollars involved here.  Im sure Nicosia might do a

better job than John Sampas with the estate.  But who knows?

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:05:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: estate matters, like it really matters

In-Reply-To:  <971019184247_-1944817340@emout13.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Attila Gyenis wrote:

 

> Also, while I was not in the main room at the infamous Jack Kerouac NYU

> conference (I was in the lobby) where the altercation occurred between Jan

> and company vs. Allen Ginsberg and company (where Jan and company were

> escorted out)-- I understand that part of the furor was the huge banner that

> was unfurled inside the conference room (that said 'Save Jack's Papers), and

> that Allen's comment was that the conference was not the proper venue for

> that topic. If I am wrong, please correct me.

 

Don't remember seeing the banner, but if this happened it seems weird --

definitely not Ginsberg's usual progressive-left hippie sensibilities of

"let's all sit down and talk this through."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:22:43 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Public Apology

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hello everybody,

 

I did not realize that I was treading on anybody's feet when I published

the Kerouac clip that is on my site.  I took it from a box set called

The Beat Generation.  There is a CD in it devoted to Kerouac's readings.

I especially liked this selection so I used WDAC to rip it from the CD

and publish it.  I have recently been contacted by Steve Voss at Beat

Cafe. (A GREAT SITE VISIT IT IF YOU HAVEN'T)

He feels that I cropped the clip from his page.  The intention was not

mine to cause disharmony among us.  His link is now placed on my site,

as well as this public apology.  I feel that this is enough to remedy

any hard feelings.

Sincerely apologetic

Keith

http://www.beatcafe.com

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:57:55 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Memory Babe

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

> 

>One I'm getting a bit curious, after all that's been going on in this list,

>is Gerry Nicosia's "Memory Babe: A Critical Biography of Jack Keroauc", can

>anyone tell me how can I get it? who is the publisher? All that stuff?

> 

>Maybe Gerry himself could help me?

> 

>thanks,

>daniel caridade

>dcaridade@geocities.com

> 

Dear Daniel,       Oct 20, 1997

        Thanks for your interest in my book.  If you read Spanish, the

easiest thing might be for you to get a copy of the Spanish translation from

Circe Ediciones.  Their address is Avenida Diagonal, 459, 08036 Barcelona,

SPAIN (Espana).

        The English edition of MEMORY BABE is distributed by Princeton

University.  In the United States there is a toll-free number,

1-800-822-6657.  I don't know if it works from Portugal, however.  If it

doesn't, you could try writing to California-Princeton Fulfillment Services,

1445 Lower Ferry Road, Ewing, New Jersey 08618.

        I hope you enjoy the book.  I would also recommend, for its

spectacular photos, Steven Turner's biography of Kerouac called ANGELHEADED

HIPSTER, which is distributed by Viking/Penguin.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:54:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>Paul stated in his last post he wants to take it off the list.

>Bentz wants to take it off the list.  That leaves one person left to

>say he will take it off the list.  Let's get back to

>discussing literature.

 

   my potentially worthless 2 cents here.  just a suggestion to think

about what it is you're doing, those of you trying to force certain

topics off of the list.  you are censoring, in a loosely defined sense

of the word, yes, but it's a dangerous thing.  not because of any of

that free speech 1st amendment crap, but because this is a

MULTI-FACETED open forum, with MANY DIFFERENT interests and subtopics.

are we supposed to not discuss a particular beat writer if a certain

group of people don't like him? y'all say this list is about the lit,

but it's not, it's about beat stuff, the lit, the lives, the culture,

the theory, the music, all of it... including the more unappealing

sides of it.. if something as minutely dreary as this estate topic

bothers youu so much, I have to wonder how you cope with the truckload

of daily inconveniences life throws at you.  I too get a little bugged

about the massive amount of messages over this topic, but not because

of their quantity, rather because of their quality; i welcome any

message interesting and well-spoken concerning any topic if i feel that

i can enhance my viewpoint on a subject, as i'm sure any of you do.  so

maybe your emphasis should be on removing the large body of messages

that contain nothing but insults and other garbage, rather than the

topic completely.. ignoring something is no way to solve it..  and you

can't have a perfect list, people fight, some people clash with certain

others, some people are just plain jerks, there is no perfect list..

trust me, this list is one of the more civil ones out there on the

whole...

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:06:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>It seems to me that there is room for a compromise here.  Why cant

>*both*

>the Sampas claims and Jan Kerouac's claims be thrown out, along with the

>wills, and a third party designated by the courts named as executor.

>Someone who has no financial interests in this, and is only committed to

>finding the best place to preserve the Kerouac papers.

 

     good idea!  I nominate myself as the new executor of the Kerouac

estate, anyone want to second that?  hehehe....

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:26:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Memory Babe

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patricia writes

 

memory babe, is great, well done, beautiful, the best on jk i have read

or seen.

p

 

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> 

> >

> >One I'm getting a bit curious, after all that's been going on in this list,

> >is Gerry Nicosia's "Memory Babe: A Critical Biography of Jack Keroauc", can

> >anyone tell me how can I get it? who is the publisher? All that stuff?

> >

> >Maybe Gerry himself could help me?

> >

> >thanks,

> >daniel caridade

> >dcaridade@geocities.com

> >

> Dear Daniel,       Oct 20, 1997

>         Thanks for your interest in my book.  If you read Spanish, the

> easiest thing might be for you to get a copy of the Spanish translation from

> Circe Ediciones.  Their address is Avenida Diagonal, 459, 08036 Barcelona,

> SPAIN (Espana).

>         The English edition of MEMORY BABE is distributed by Princeton

> University.  In the United States there is a toll-free number,

> 1-800-822-6657.  I don't know if it works from Portugal, however.  If it

> doesn't, you could try writing to California-Princeton Fulfillment Services,

> 1445 Lower Ferry Road, Ewing, New Jersey 08618.

>         I hope you enjoy the book.  I would also recommend, for its

> spectacular photos, Steven Turner's biography of Kerouac called ANGELHEADED

> HIPSTER, which is distributed by Viking/Penguin.

>         Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:55:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      orgone machines.

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has anyone attempted to build one of Reich's Orgone machines? If so what

was your experience inside of one? If anyone is planning to open a used

book store or a coffee shop these swell machines might come into some

use. Just an idea.

                                                        jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:45:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Comments: To: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <msg1088511.thr-b3cc9950.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

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On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >It seems to me that there is room for a compromise here.  Why cant

> >*both*

> >the Sampas claims and Jan Kerouac's claims be thrown out, along with the

> >wills, and a third party designated by the courts named as executor.

> >Someone who has no financial interests in this, and is only committed to

> >finding the best place to preserve the Kerouac papers.

> 

>      good idea!  I nominate myself as the new executor of the Kerouac

> estate, anyone want to second that?  hehehe....

> 

 

It needs to be someone who agrees to NOT benefit financially from the

job.  Who agrees to donate all executor's fees to a Kerouac fund or

something.  Nicosia should for instance agree to donate any fees he

recieves via his job as Jan's executor to the Jack Kerouac school for

Disemobdied Poetics, or to someplace like that.  Jack deseves somebody

handling these things who isnt in it for the money.

 

By donating his cut, Nicosia would be proving that his motives are purer

than the Sampases or anyone else's involved.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:04:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: The estate battle

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971020122619.15639A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

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On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> Im sure Nicosia might do a better job than John Sampas with the estate.

> But who knows?

 

If love and dedication is the standard, there's no doubt whose side the

angels are on.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:25:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Memory Babe

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A model of scholarship as I have said more than once to Gerald Nicosia.

though the NY Times felt that there was too much input from people who knew

Jack kerouac, I felt that there could have been more instead of the textual

analysis

which would have made the book three times larger. But, it is his book and a

definite feather in his hat. It will be interesting to see how it holds up

next to one that claims to be "definitive" (Ellis Amburn's)and "authorized"

Douglas Brinkley. Though, to be fair, they have a lot more to go on now than

Gerry did when he was researching his book. Paul....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:16:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Entropy Operator <rush2@INSTANTLINUX.COM>

Subject:      Re: The estate battle

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.BSI.3.95.971020120348.25887C-100000@global.california.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> > Im sure Nicosia might do a better job than John Sampas with the estate.

> > But who knows?

> 

> If love and dedication is the standard, there's no doubt whose side the

> angels are on.

> 

 

I dont get it.

The list moderator kindly asked

this thread be canceled

yet i've gotten 50 non-beat

related e-mails about the stupid

fight.

 

politics are for people not capable of their own thoughts.

That's why we get politicans.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:23:49 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      New Sound!

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hello Again,

 

I have added a new sound clip to ever growing site!  Keep those

submissions coming, I can handle all you can give me(with a litte time).

Right now, everything I have is on the site.

If you go to the Kerouac page, you will find a small portion of a song

called kerouazy by Don Morrow.

I added this for a few reasons

1) To dispell rumors that my page is simply a rip off of other great and

more established sites.

2) To prove that I am always updating littel things to make my site more

enjoyable for you.

3) The song is a tribute to Kerouac, who has earned my respect and love.

4) To satisfy my urge to contribute to this growing community of people.

 

Thank you so much for your support and remember I NEED MORE ESSAYS,

POEMS, SHORT STORIES, AND RANDOM COMMENTS!!!!

 

Thank you,

Keith Medline

 

PS don't forget to sign my guestbook, it helps me know who to send site

update information to!  Thank you.

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:30:20 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      faux pas, n'est pas?

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> did i hallucinate or did i not send a 'howl with whine chaser' to the

list?

> it's really weird feeling like you can hear a pin drop after farting

at the

> crowned head'o'states banquet table for the queen of xavier.

> duh?

> mc

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:34:46 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: The estate battle

 

forgive me - but this has nothing to do with American politics and it's a VERY

Beat subject.  the misfortune is that instead of its being an enlightened and

enlightening open, honest debate, it's been a personal battle between people

whose interests clash and who resort to tearing each other down.

 

the discussion should, IMHO be allowed, but anyone who continues to post

slanderous, libelling, childish posts should be dumped off the list after a

warning or two.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Entropy Operator

Sent:   Monday, October 20, 1997 11:16 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: The estate battle

 

> > Im sure Nicosia might do a better job than John Sampas with the estate.

> > But who knows?

> 

> If love and dedication is the standard, there's no doubt whose side the

> angels are on.

> 

 

I dont get it.

The list moderator kindly asked

this thread be canceled

yet i've gotten 50 non-beat

related e-mails about the stupid

fight.

 

politics are for people not capable of their own thoughts.

That's why we get politicans.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:40:56 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

Richard, while that's noble, Gerry or anyone else does deserve something for

the huge amount of work this can entail.  unless the executor is someone who

is independently wealthy, s/he couldn't work a second job in order to put food

on the table.

 

given dear Jack's  ever-growing popularity, there will be even more to do in

the coming years.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Richard Wallner

Sent:   Monday, October 20, 1997 11:45 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >It seems to me that there is room for a compromise here.  Why cant

> >*both*

> >the Sampas claims and Jan Kerouac's claims be thrown out, along with the

> >wills, and a third party designated by the courts named as executor.

> >Someone who has no financial interests in this, and is only committed to

> >finding the best place to preserve the Kerouac papers.

> 

>      good idea!  I nominate myself as the new executor of the Kerouac

> estate, anyone want to second that?  hehehe....

> 

 

It needs to be someone who agrees to NOT benefit financially from the

job.  Who agrees to donate all executor's fees to a Kerouac fund or

something.  Nicosia should for instance agree to donate any fees he

recieves via his job as Jan's executor to the Jack Kerouac school for

Disemobdied Poetics, or to someplace like that.  Jack deseves somebody

handling these things who isnt in it for the money.

 

By donating his cut, Nicosia would be proving that his motives are purer

than the Sampases or anyone else's involved.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:43:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: politics

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.96.971020141536.7614A-100000@poconos.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

 this is off the "beat" subject but,

 

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Entropy Operator wrote:

 

> politics are for people not capable of their own thoughts.

> That's why we get politicans.

 

I'd rethink that statement.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:54:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: faux pas, n'est pas?

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

"Howl With Whine Chaser" was tres amusing, Marie!  Thanks for sharing it

with us...especially at a time like this, when the list can *definitely*

use some lightening up!

 

Jym

----------

> From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: faux pas, n'est pas?

> Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 10:30 AM

> 

> > did i hallucinate or did i not send a 'howl with whine chaser' to the

> list?

> > it's really weird feeling like you can hear a pin drop after farting

> at the

> > crowned head'o'states banquet table for the queen of xavier.

> > duh?

> > mc

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:46:48 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: faux pas, n'est pas?

Content-Type: text/plain

 

You did get my overwhelmed into speechlessness review? If not let me

know and I will dig it oufrom my treasured archives.

 

Admiring fan with love

 

leon

 

>Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:30:20 +0000

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

>Subject:      faux pas, n'est pas?

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>> did i hallucinate or did i not send a 'howl with whine chaser' to the

>list?

>> it's really weird feeling like you can hear a pin drop after farting

>at the

>> crowned head'o'states banquet table for the queen of xavier.

>> duh?

>> mc

>> 

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:04:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: faux pas, n'est pas?

 

marie-

are you trying to start an argument here or what? this is no place for

that kind of nonsense. we're a beat discussion group, focused on the

discussion of beat literature, and surely none of us would ever use this

as a public forum to debate personal issues. :)

 

so how was the trip?

 

group-

really diggin a book i just got- the letters of wsb, 1945-1956. gives

great insight to his beliefs and thoughts of america, junk, etc. in a

series of letters to allen and jack, he talks about the writing of junky,

and all the editing he put into it. i think the reason he was big on the

cut and paste thing is because he made so many refinements that he just

ended up losing half the book.

interesting stuff in this here book. highly recommended for those who

haven't seen it, and would like to discuss with those who have.

 

peace-

bob

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:23:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199710201940480693@classic.msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Sherri wrote:

 

> Richard, while that's noble, Gerry or anyone else does deserve something for

> the huge amount of work this can entail.  unless the executor is someone who

> is independently wealthy, s/he couldn't work a second job in order to put food

> on the table.

 

Nicosia has doubtless made plenty of money from "Memory Babe" and his

other writing endeavors.  When you become an executor of a "friend's"

estate, you should want to do so out of love, not money.

 

Would Nicosia have accepted the job if the cut was 5% or 2%.  Where does

personal interest end and financial interest begin?  Everyone involved in

this is hip deep in greed of one form or another.

 

Jack Kerouac died broke and all these people want is to make money off of

him....very sad.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:18:10 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: faux pas, n'est pas?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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it must have been the speechless review. hence, invisibility! oh leon i am

in such high and mischevous spirits today! i think i already wrote you

about my growing train stash and my whiriling about. i'm unpacked vacuumed

shrunk lawyered poeted and many other things.

oh yeh: i got john berryman out of library i want to be able to read and

understand his dream songs.

bye!

love and hugs

us!

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

 

> You did get my overwhelmed into speechlessness review? If not let me

> know and I will dig it oufrom my treasured archives.

> 

> Admiring fan with love

> 

> leon

> 

> >Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:30:20 +0000

> >Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> >From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

> >Subject:      faux pas, n'est pas?

> >To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> >

> >> did i hallucinate or did i not send a 'howl with whine chaser' to the

> >list?

> >> it's really weird feeling like you can hear a pin drop after farting

> >at the

> >> crowned head'o'states banquet table for the queen of xavier.

> >> duh?

> >> mc

> >>

> >.-

> >

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:29:36 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      a feeble attempt to honor Jack

 

OCTOBER 20, 1997

(Supplication to the Soul of Jack Kerouac)

 

where is Jack's

ghost today?

hope it's

sitting beside me

reminding me

it doesn't have to be

this way.

 

sing to me Jack

little Boddhi of the western world

sing me back

to the America

that is a dream,

to the soul

in the steam      stream

                gears       piers               mountains

        moons                   Junes   tunes

of a time that maybe never was

and yet ever will be

 

then come sit like a lotus

with me

in sweet   sorrowful     tragic         infinite

                                                        compassion

 

sherri sarantakis

10/20/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:38:44 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

Richard, i have no idea if Gerry would do it for free or not...  why are you

so sure that he is being motivated by money?  i personally have no way of

knowing how much money may be a part of his motivation, but i have gotten a

sense that his love of both Jan andn Ti Jean is sincere.

 

it would be my wish that whoever manages the estate do it with knowledge, love

and proper care.  and in order to be sure that that person would continue the

job in that vein, i'd hope s/he would be paid enough to be comfortable, so

s/he wouldn't quit the job because it's too cumbersome or consuming too much

time away from an income-producing joband family, if there is one.  why does

it matter who gets the $$$, so long as the estate is managed skillfully,

properly, lovingly and honestly?

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Richard Wallner

Sent:   Monday, October 20, 1997 1:23 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Sherri wrote:

 

> Richard, while that's noble, Gerry or anyone else does deserve something for

> the huge amount of work this can entail.  unless the executor is someone who

> is independently wealthy, s/he couldn't work a second job in order to put

food

> on the table.

 

Nicosia has doubtless made plenty of money from "Memory Babe" and his

other writing endeavors.  When you become an executor of a "friend's"

estate, you should want to do so out of love, not money.

 

Would Nicosia have accepted the job if the cut was 5% or 2%.  Where does

personal interest end and financial interest begin?  Everyone involved in

this is hip deep in greed of one form or another.

 

Jack Kerouac died broke and all these people want is to make money off of

him....very sad.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:54:51 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      [Fwd: Estate Battle]

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> The anniversary of Jack Kerouac's death will be upon us in a couple of

> days.  (it is now here)  I have asked both Gerry Nicosia and Paul Maher to

 drop discussion

> of this topic on the Beat-l list.  In honor of Kerouac's gentleness and

> compassion, I call for everyone on the list to declare a moratorium on

> this topic.  (snip)

 

 This issue will be settled in the courts.   Anyone

> wishing to discuss the matter further should do so via private email.

 

We haven't learned anything this time that wasn't gone over in more

detail and with even greater nastiness last April.

To honor  Jack, can we have a hiatus, a cooling off period, a break?

 

In respect for Bill Gargan, also, who created this list that we all

love. In a sense we are all guests in Bill's house here.  He is a

tolerant host.  But probably not infinitly patient. This was posted a

day ago and everyone is still going strong.

 

js

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:18:08 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Golden Eternity

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>Nicosia has doubtless made plenty of money from "Memory Babe" and his

>other writing endeavors.  When you become an executor of a "friend's"

>estate, you should want to do so out of love, not money.

> 

>Would Nicosia have accepted the job if the cut was 5% or 2%.  Where does

>personal interest end and financial interest begin?  Everyone involved in

>this is hip deep in greed of one form or another.

> 

>Jack Kerouac died broke and all these people want is to make money off of

>him....very sad.

> 

>RJW

 

I doubt that "all these people want is to make money off of him."

 

There are real issues being debated in this estate battle. Maybe debated is

the wrong word, but I certainly think that a fair amount of real info comes

through beyond all the personal shit being thrown.

 

Why do we always reduce peoples' motives to the almighty dollar? How can we

presume to say what a "friend" should do? How do we know that someone "has

doubtless made plenty of money from "Memory Babe" and his other writing

endeavors." Why are so many people so judgemental of others?

 

28 years ago today I was debating whether I should stay in college or not.

Jack lay on his death bed. I stayed in school and 2 1/2 years later quit to

go on the road. Maybe 5 years later I finally read Kerouac. Now,at 46, my

life is so much different than what it might have been like had I not gone

on the road, traveled a different path had not read Han Shan, T'ao Ch'ien,

Jack Kerouac, Lew Welch, Gary Snyder. They all point the way to other

existences than what is expected

of us in the normal course of late 20th century America.

 

I'll flip another tab off the Genny Cream Ale and sit back to read a little

of the "Scripture of the Golden Eternity" by Jack:

 

"Up in heaven you wont remember all these tricks of yours. You wont even

sigh "Why?" Whether as atomic dust or as great cities, what's the

difference in all this stuff? A tree is still only a rootdrinker. The

puma's twisted face continues to look at the blue sky with sightless eyes.

Ah sweet divine and indescribable and verdurous paradise planted in

mid-air! Caitanya, it's only consciousness. Not with thoughts of your mind,

but in the believing sweetness of your heart, you snap the link and open

the golden door and disappear into the bright room, the everlasting

ecstasy, eternal Now. Soldier, follow me! - there never was a war. Arjuna,

don't fight! - why fight over nothing? Bless and sit down."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:26:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199710202038370803@classic.msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Sherri, this executorship wouldnt be a fulltime job.  It is not like

court cases and book deals pop up all the time.  Why couldnt Gerry

establish a scholarship fund with his 10% cut, something in his or Jan's

name, or in Jack's memory.  Have Jan's estate forward any Nicosia checks

into this fund.

 

He'd still get the tax writeoff.  It would be a noble thing to do.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:31:27 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: a feeble attempt to honor Jack

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hello Sherri

 

A feeble song? I know the answer. You feel humble today. All the more

reaching its destination, our hearts. The sweet sadness of Jack's life

and yearnings keeps whispering to us in your words today.

 

Love

leon

 

 

>Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:29:36 UT

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

>Subject:      a feeble attempt to honor Jack

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>OCTOBER 20, 1997

>(Supplication to the Soul of Jack Kerouac)

> 

>where is Jack's

>ghost today?

>hope it's

>sitting beside me

>reminding me

>it doesn't have to be

>this way.

> 

>sing to me Jack

>little Boddhi of the western world

>sing me back

>to the America

>that is a dream,

>to the soul

>in the steam      stream

>                gears       piers               mountains

>        moons                   Junes   tunes

>of a time that maybe never was

>and yet ever will be

> 

>then come sit like a lotus

>with me

>in sweet   sorrowful     tragic         infinite

>                                                        compassion

> 

>sherri sarantakis

>10/20/97

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:39:56 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Letters of WSB, 1945-1956

In-Reply-To:  <19971020.150444.9094.0.kokupokit@juno.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Bob Lewis wrote:

 

> group-

> really diggin a book i just got- the letters of wsb, 1945-1956. gives

> great insight to his beliefs and thoughts of america, junk, etc. in a

> series of letters to allen and jack, he talks about the writing of junky,

> and all the editing he put into it. i think the reason he was big on the

> cut and paste thing is because he made so many refinements that he just

> ended up losing half the book.

> interesting stuff in this here book. highly recommended for those who

> haven't seen it, and would like to discuss with those who have.

 

bob (and anyone else), i'd love to hear your thoughts on this book. i just

bought it this weekend, haven't yet looked at it past the initial

skim-through at the bookstore but it looks like there's a lot of good stuff

inside. am especially interested in how he came to refining his work,

tracing the path of his writing in this trail of letters and the thoughts he

shared w/ allen and jack along the way.

 

attaching myself to an expedition, in a somewhat vague capacity, to be

sure--

 

m

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:45:56 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: politics

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Ah, indeed you need to rethink this statement.  In America Politician

has become sunonomous with evil.  We distrust our ministers.  Read the

book by James Morone called "The Democratic Wish"  It is more likely

that the American People choose the wrong people to give them reform.

i.e= Jackson

Okay enough about that.  Political statements are the driving force in

most literature of merit.  Please do not condemn politicians, or the

people that elect them, more likely retract your statement and accept

the political system in American is flawed.  Inherently it cannot work.

Our federalist constitution ensures this.  We gain protection from

radical ideas and sweeping reform at the cost of a gridlocked

governmental institution.  Checks and balances are the true culprits you

need to address not the pawns(politicians...)

Thank you

keith

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:54:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      October 20/21, 1997

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Tomorrow is my 44th birthday.  It is also the anniversary of the date

Jack was declared dead.  It is hard to believe I was 16 then.  When I

was in San Francisco I went into the Catholic Cathedral next to Jackson

Park (?) off Grant Ave.  Gerry told me it was the Church that Jack took

Ma Mere to mass when she was in San Francisco.  I felt a strong presence

there and lite a candle for Jack, Ma Mere, Neal and Allen.

 

Today, I lift my heart up to the universal light in warm thoughts of

these souls and of the sad death of Jack Kerouac.  May we all learn from

the knowledge he passed to us and from the mistakes he made.

 

This light touch,

Prophet, voyeur,

Follower, rememberer.

This hollow echo

Of alcohol.

This special honored

Place within.

This knowledge imparted,

Accepted as grace.

Amen, amen,

For the soul of our brother Jack.

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:47:07 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: faux pas, n'est pas?

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:18:10 +0000

 oh leon i am

>in such high and mischevous spirits today!

 

Contagious across the continent

 

i think i already wrote you

>about my growing train stash and my whiriling about.

 

Not the whiriling yet.

 

 i'm unpacked vacuumed

 

>shrunk lawyered poeted,

 

 and many other things.

 

What a dramaturg you are. Didn't you once say that I am teasing you

sometimes. This time who is doing the teasing?  Shrunk, lawyered and

poeted and what?

 

>oh yeh: i got john berryman out of library i want to be able to read

and

>understand his dream songs.

 

I see, libraried don't make it. Not quite yet demystified. Some reading

to do. Hey that's what I better get back to.

 

bye!

>love and hugs

>us!

 

Now you are byed and loved and hugged again

> 

leon

 

>Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

>> You did get my overwhelmed into speechlessness review? If not let me

>> know and I will dig it oufrom my treasured archives.

>> 

>> Admiring fan with love

>> 

>> leon

>> 

>> >Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:30:20 +0000

>> >Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>> >From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

>> >Subject:      faux pas, n'est pas?

>> >To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>> >

>> >> did i hallucinate or did i not send a 'howl with whine chaser' to

the

>> >list?

>> >> it's really weird feeling like you can hear a pin drop after

farting

>> >at the

>> >> crowned head'o'states banquet table for the queen of xavier.

>> >> duh?

>> >> mc

>> >>

>> >.-

>> >

>> 

>> ______________________________________________________

>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:19:11 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      dylan and jack

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

after other readings, discs, i have on dylan's time out of mind. what an

outtasight was to gentle me down. sorry for timewarp language but it

takes me back to the gentle hopeful days of that era. continutity

counts.

bless you jack

ddylan sings for you, too.

salut

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:28:38 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Beat-L Salary arbitration counsel

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Richard Wallner wrote:

> 

 . . . this executorship wouldn't be a fulltime job.

 

Guys, Guys,

 

Who the hell are we to decide how much of a job this is and how much it

should pay?  Personally, I hope whoever winds up with the task does a

good job and makes good money.  Who elected any of us here to decide

where to put the money?  I certainly don't want a Commisar of Salaries

decided what I should be allowed to make.  Richard, who decides what you

are allowed to earn?  Given your objection to earning money I would

assume that it is a trust fund or an allowance.  If you had a family to

feed, bills to pay, etc, you might not regard some sort of decent

remuneration as a bad thing.  Gerry's compensation (in the event he gets

any) is absolutely none of my business or yours.

 

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:22:01 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

i'm sorry Richard, i do think it would be close to a full time job - at least

for awhile.  however, i do sympathise with the nobility you call for...  i

just don't know how possible it is for anyone to do such a thing unless s/he

has a lot of $$$ at her/his disposal....  and i'd hate to see a good executor

quit due to lack of funds or time...

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Richard Wallner

Sent:   Monday, October 20, 1997 2:26 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

Sherri, this executorship wouldnt be a fulltime job.  It is not like

court cases and book deals pop up all the time.  Why couldnt Gerry

establish a scholarship fund with his 10% cut, something in his or Jan's

name, or in Jack's memory.  Have Jan's estate forward any Nicosia checks

into this fund.

 

He'd still get the tax writeoff.  It would be a noble thing to do.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:15:00 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Golden Eternity

 

thanks, Michael, for the beautiful quote.  it's from a work i don't know, so

i'll be looking for it...

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Michael Czarnecki

Sent:   Monday, October 20, 1997 2:18 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Golden Eternity

 

>Nicosia has doubtless made plenty of money from "Memory Babe" and his

>other writing endeavors.  When you become an executor of a "friend's"

>estate, you should want to do so out of love, not money.

> 

>Would Nicosia have accepted the job if the cut was 5% or 2%.  Where does

>personal interest end and financial interest begin?  Everyone involved in

>this is hip deep in greed of one form or another.

> 

>Jack Kerouac died broke and all these people want is to make money off of

>him....very sad.

> 

>RJW

 

I doubt that "all these people want is to make money off of him."

 

There are real issues being debated in this estate battle. Maybe debated is

the wrong word, but I certainly think that a fair amount of real info comes

through beyond all the personal shit being thrown.

 

Why do we always reduce peoples' motives to the almighty dollar? How can we

presume to say what a "friend" should do? How do we know that someone "has

doubtless made plenty of money from "Memory Babe" and his other writing

endeavors." Why are so many people so judgemental of others?

 

28 years ago today I was debating whether I should stay in college or not.

Jack lay on his death bed. I stayed in school and 2 1/2 years later quit to

go on the road. Maybe 5 years later I finally read Kerouac. Now,at 46, my

life is so much different than what it might have been like had I not gone

on the road, traveled a different path had not read Han Shan, T'ao Ch'ien,

Jack Kerouac, Lew Welch, Gary Snyder. They all point the way to other

existences than what is expected

of us in the normal course of late 20th century America.

 

I'll flip another tab off the Genny Cream Ale and sit back to read a little

of the "Scripture of the Golden Eternity" by Jack:

 

"Up in heaven you wont remember all these tricks of yours. You wont even

sigh "Why?" Whether as atomic dust or as great cities, what's the

difference in all this stuff? A tree is still only a rootdrinker. The

puma's twisted face continues to look at the blue sky with sightless eyes.

Ah sweet divine and indescribable and verdurous paradise planted in

mid-air! Caitanya, it's only consciousness. Not with thoughts of your mind,

but in the believing sweetness of your heart, you snap the link and open

the golden door and disappear into the bright room, the everlasting

ecstasy, eternal Now. Soldier, follow me! - there never was a war. Arjuna,

don't fight! - why fight over nothing? Bless and sit down."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:23:06 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      favorite JK poem

 

my favorite Kerouac poem to date:

 

The Moon

 

The moon her magic be, big sad face

of infinity  An illuminated clay ball

Manifesting many gentlemanly remarks

 

She kicks a star, clouds foregather

In Scimitar shape, to round her

Cadle out, upsidedown any old time

 

You can also let the moon foolyou

With imaginary orange-balls

of blazing imaginary light in fright

 

As eyeballs, hurt and foregathered,

Wink to the wince of the seeing

Of a little sprightly otay

 

Which projects spikes of light

Out the round smooth blue balloon

Ball full of mountains and moons

 

Deep as the ocean, high as the moon,

low as the lowliest river lagoon

Fish in the Tar and pull in the Spar

 

Billy de Budd and Hanshan Emperor

And all wall moongazers since

Daniel Machree, Yeats see

 

Gaze at the moon ocean marking

the face ----

                                        In some cases

                                        The moon is you

 

                                        In any case

                                        The moon

 

thanks for the beauty, Ti Jean.  hope yr boppin' around the stars

 

ciao, sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:30:58 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: dylan and jack

 

marie - so GLAD to have you back!!!  haven't had a chance to read your "howl"

post - it's at home.  but the tenderness and fun in this post, brought a tear

to my eye.

 

hope you had a GREAT trip!!!

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marie Countryman

Sent:   Monday, October 20, 1997 11:19 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        dylan and jack

 

after other readings, discs, i have on dylan's time out of mind. what an

outtasight was to gentle me down. sorry for timewarp language but it

takes me back to the gentle hopeful days of that era. continutity

counts.

bless you jack

ddylan sings for you, too.

salut

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:09:09 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate debate)

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Okay here it is.

                    Information Laid To Waste

 

     There is this notion that Beat literature should not be taught in

the schools.  Even at the University level i find it hard to take

classes on the subject.  In the Norton Anthology(abridged) there is only

one reference to the beat generation...."Howl" by Ginser.  While this is

an important piece, would not America be a better selection from Ginser?

Where is Kerouac, where is Lew, and Burroughs?  These men were certainly

influencial?  Was Howl chosen because it seems begnign?  I am unsure of

this.  Perhaps people still cannot accept that the beat movement forced

us to all think as a society.  Look at our vocabulary. The common

colloqialisms that we use are derived a lot from the speech of popular

beat phrases.  Is this inforamtion laid to waste.  Will the next

generation have to work even harder than I to discover this important

American movement?  Jazz, Poetry, and art?  A rennaisance in America,

unnoticed because of the times.  It seems like such a travesty.

Keith

 

______________________________________________________

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=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:23:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: politics

In-Reply-To:  <19971020214556.9059.qmail@hotmail.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I was referring rather to the philosophical viewpoint of Nietzsche and

Foucault.  "Will to Power" -- will to politics.  Follow me?

 

Dana

 

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Keith Medline wrote:

 

> Ah, indeed you need to rethink this statement.  In America Politician

> has become sunonomous with evil.  We distrust our ministers.  Read the

> book by James Morone called "The Democratic Wish"  It is more likely

> that the American People choose the wrong people to give them reform.

> i.e= Jackson

> Okay enough about that.  Political statements are the driving force in

> most literature of merit.  Please do not condemn politicians, or the

> people that elect them, more likely retract your statement and accept

> the political system in American is flawed.  Inherently it cannot work.

> Our federalist constitution ensures this.  We gain protection from

> radical ideas and sweeping reform at the cost of a gridlocked

> governmental institution.  Checks and balances are the true culprits you

> need to address not the pawns(politicians...)

> Thank you

> keith

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:16:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

rwallner@CapAccess.org,.Internet writes:

> Jack Kerouac school for

>Disemobdied Poetics, or to someplace like that.  Jack deseves somebody

>handling these things who isnt in it for the money.

 

 

     speaking of the school, i'm hoping to study there in the not too

distant future... anyone been there, attended there? any comments?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:05:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

i think it would sit well with some that John Sampas, who is the literary

executor of his sister's (Stella) estate is paid for being so. He doesn't

sit there raking in cash from published books. Income from royalties

therefore do not go into his pocket but into the Kerouac Estate at large,

from there who knows...the Estate was inherited from Gabrielle Kerouac to

her and with tha was the Jack Kerouac motherlode of notebooks, journals,

art, letters, and unpublished and published novels. Some manuscripts were in

fact donated to the New York Public Library, others are in a safe deposit

box in Lowell waiting for the lawsuit to end. But...they are not sitting in

a drawer languishing for all eternity away from scholars and readers.

     On the subject of John Sampas sicking lawyers on people for using

Kerouac's books, unpublished letters, etc. for their own publications, web

pages, etc. It is his duty to demonstrate vigilance on these matters or he

would be fired. Try making Disney t-hirts and selling them outside the gates

of DisneyLand and see how far you get that day. It is something that happens

everywhere. I am just as disgusted as some of you because I cannot have the

usage I need for my own book, but it is something that we will have to live

with I'm afraid. Thanks, Paul of TKQ...

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:47:38 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate debate)

In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:09:09 PDT from

              <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

 

The Beats are being taught now, I'm happy to say, in colleges and high schools

all around the country.  Several people on this list have taught and/or taken c

ourses on the list.  I'll let them respond for themselves.  There are courses t

hat have been taught in several units of the City University of New York: Brook

lyn College, Queens College, Hunter College, and the Graduate Center.  There's

even a beat course at Midwood High School in Brooklyn.   The list of courses is

 growing.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:56:08 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: politics

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I am sorry for the mistake.  Although my thought was porvacative...

Sorry for opening my mouth?(keyboard?)

 

 

>I was referring rather to the philosophical viewpoint of Nietzsche and

>Foucault.  "Will to Power" -- will to politics.  Follow me?

> 

>Dana

> 

>On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Keith Medline wrote:

> 

>> Ah, indeed you need to rethink this statement.  In America Politician

>> has become sunonomous with evil.  We distrust our ministers.  Read

the

>> book by James Morone called "The Democratic Wish"  It is more likely

>> that the American People choose the wrong people to give them reform.

>> i.e= Jackson

>> Okay enough about that.  Political statements are the driving force

in

>> most literature of merit.  Please do not condemn politicians, or the

>> people that elect them, more likely retract your statement and accept

>> the political system in American is flawed.  Inherently it cannot

work.

>> Our federalist constitution ensures this.  We gain protection from

>> radical ideas and sweeping reform at the cost of a gridlocked

>> governmental institution.  Checks and balances are the true culprits

you

>> need to address not the pawns(politicians...)

>> Thank you

>> keith

>> 

>> ______________________________________________________

>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

>> 

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:11:28 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate debate)

Content-Type: text/plain

 

This may be true in an urban setting, but what about the rest of us.

Must we travel to cities to find an education?  Conservative America is

repressing the Beats.  In Ann Arbor (UofM) the beat literature is alive.

Yet in the same state at a rival college MSU the beats only live in a

few people.  One being Dr. Rod Phillips who turned me on to their works.

it really opened my eyes, because I considered my liberal arts education

to be quite good.  The beats however were not even mentioned as a force

in American Society formation.

 

 

>The Beats are being taught now, I'm happy to say, in colleges and high

schools

>all around the country.  Several people on this list have taught and/or

taken c

>ourses on the list.  I'll let them respond for themselves.  There are

courses t

>hat have been taught in several units of the City University of New

York: Brook

>lyn College, Queens College, Hunter College, and the Graduate Center.

There's

>even a beat course at Midwood High School in Brooklyn.   The list of

courses is

> growing.

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:19:19 -0500

Reply-To:     Roy Murray Moore <unde0297@frank.mtsu.edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Roy Murray Moore <unde0297@FRANK.MTSU.EDU>

Subject:      pockets of beat

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

usually i don't throw many ideas onto this list, having felt the brunt

from the leary-GO connection fiasco, but somthing has been bugging me for

the last couple weeks. i've always felt that the reason the beat (and

later the counterculture) movement came into existence was partly due to

the sordid mixture of young inteligent college student and the downtrodden

outcasts of society (i.e. vagrants and hustlers). This was never more

evident than in the case of the Village with the proximity of Columbia

University and NYU as well as Times Square. This mixture created a hybrid

people, intellectuals who longed for the freedom enjoyed by junkies and

prostitutes, who possessed a bitter cynicism about life and contempt

toward the gentility of america. what i am wondering is does the relative

closeness of a major academically-renown university and a collection of

social misfits trapped together in a large city create such movements? if

so, what other cities beside NYC would be conducive toward such movements?

from the relative proximity of nashville and vanderbilt university, could

a new beat generation be simmering underneath the surface of the growing

city under my very nose? i'm simply in search of my own pocket of beat.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:26:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate debate)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>This may be true in an urban setting, but what about the rest of us.

>Must we travel to cities to find an education?  Conservative America is

>repressing the Beats.  In Ann Arbor (UofM) the beat literature is alive.

>Yet in the same state at a rival college MSU the beats only live in a

>few people.  One being Dr. Rod Phillips who turned me on to their works.

>it really opened my eyes, because I considered my liberal arts education

>to be quite good.  The beats however were not even mentioned as a force

>in American Society formation.

 

     here at UMaine there is a Kerouac course tought by the assisstant

dean.. and my philosophy prof is think of doing an existentialism in

lit course with Kerouac as one of the main readings.  i think that we

have to take it upon ourselves to maintain the beat presence if it

isn't there.. i myself am working on starting something here, with

readings, listening sessions, etc.. all it takes it someone willing to

get things started and you'd be surprised how many interested folks

come out of the woodwork.. most people will jump at the opportunity if

it's presented, even though they may not take the initiative to start

it. know what i mean?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:43:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: your mail

 

Dana and others,

 

Okay, not to sound like some flaming feminist,but what do you mean by,

"hitchiking isn't safe any more, especially for a girl." I mean i know its

dangerous, but thats goes for everyone. By the way, I'd like to know what all

the listees think about the Beat's attitudes towards women. Was it negative?

supportive? abusive? put on a pedestal type? I'd like to know everybody's

thoughts on the subject, especially because I recently saw Women of the Beat

Generation out in bookstores.

i'd like to add that i'm a college student as well. Nice to see some other

younguns on the list. :) Please don't take my question offensively, I simply

want to know what you all think. Take care

                             ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:51:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sudama Adam Rice <sudama@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: pockets of beat

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

 

what kind of freedom do junkies and prostitutes enjoy?

 

--

Adam

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:58:34 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate debate)

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I like your sense of activism.  However on a campus with 48,000 kids it

is difficult to get the word out.  I have started a web page as you have

probably seen.  However, until I get more exposure and knowledge on the

subject I want to remain less active.  That was what I am getting at, it

is hard to balance my school with my web page, with my personal

readings.  Anyway, you are right, people will come out of the woodwork.

I am saying thatit has been a hard journey for me to find an education

about it.  Well thank you for your imput, I know that the estate thing

was getting tedious!  Anyway, gotta split

Keith

 

 

> 

>>This may be true in an urban setting, but what about the rest of us.

>>Must we travel to cities to find an education?  Conservative America

is

>>repressing the Beats.  In Ann Arbor (UofM) the beat literature is

alive.

>>Yet in the same state at a rival college MSU the beats only live in a

>>few people.  One being Dr. Rod Phillips who turned me on to their

works.

>>it really opened my eyes, because I considered my liberal arts

education

>>to be quite good.  The beats however were not even mentioned as a

force

>>in American Society formation.

> 

>     here at UMaine there is a Kerouac course tought by the assisstant

>dean.. and my philosophy prof is think of doing an existentialism in

>lit course with Kerouac as one of the main readings.  i think that we

>have to take it upon ourselves to maintain the beat presence if it

>isn't there.. i myself am working on starting something here, with

>readings, listening sessions, etc.. all it takes it someone willing to

>get things started and you'd be surprised how many interested folks

>come out of the woodwork.. most people will jump at the opportunity if

>it's presented, even though they may not take the initiative to start

>it. know what i mean?

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:16:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Scattered Poems

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I picked up Scattered Poems, 1971, $2.00 from City Lights when I bought

it back in 1977 or so to look for an inspired word from Jack on

birthdays or some such.  I found, much to my delight, an introduction

borrowed from "The Origins of Joy in Poetry".  I say it is my delight

because it says somethings that I have argued here.  And it says a lot

about the Men who Jack was associated.  Take it as Jack said it;

 

        The new American poetry as typified by the SF Renaissance (which means

Ginsberg, me, Rexroth, Ferlinghetti, McClure, Corso, Gary Snyder, Philip

Lamantia, Philip Whalen, I guess) is a kind of new-old Zen Lunacy

poetry, writing whatever comes into your head as it comes, poetry

returned to its origin, in the bardic child, truly ORAL as Ferling said,

instead of gray faced Academic quibbling.  Poetry & prose had for a long

time fallen into the false hands of the false.  These new pure poets

confess forth the sheer joy of confession.  They are CHILDREN.  They are

also childlike graybeard Homers singing in the street.  They SING, they

SWING.  It is diametrically opposed to the Eliot shot, who so dismally

advises his dreay negative rules like the objective correlative, etc.

which is just a lot of constipation and utlimately emasculation of the

the pure masculine urge to freely sing.  In spite of the dry rules he

set down his poetry is itself sublime.  I could say lots more but aint

got time or sense.  But SF is the poetry of a new Holy Lunancy like that

of ancient times (Li Po, Hanshan, Tom O Bedlam, Kit Smart, Blake) yet it

also has that mental discipline typified by the haiku (Basho, Buson),

that is, the discipline of pointing out things directly, purely,

concretely, no abstractions, or explanations, wham wham the true blue

song of man.

 

Jack Kerouac -- The Origions of Joy in Poetry.

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:23:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Now for death day

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Well, the last post was for my birthday.  In the Scattered Poems book I

found the beginning of a poem that is about Jack's death day.

 

From:

Lucien Midnight

 

        Dying is ecstasy.

        I'm not a teacher, not a

Sage, not a Roshi, not a

writer or master or even

a giggling dharma bum I'm

my mother's son & my mother

is the universe --

        What is this universe

                but a lot of waves

        And a craving desire

                is a wave

        Belonging to a wave

                in a world of waves

        So  why put any down,

                wave?

        Come on wave, WAVE!

...

 

1957

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:15:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: favorite JK poem

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199710202223580240@classic.msn.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:23 PM 10/20/97 UT, you wrote:

>my favorite Kerouac poem to date:

> 

>The Moon

> 

>The moon her magic be, big sad face

>of infinity  An illuminated clay ball

>Manifesting many gentlemanly remarks

> 

>She kicks a star, clouds foregather

>In Scimitar shape, to round her

>Cadle out, upsidedown any old time

> 

>You can also let the moon foolyou

>With imaginary orange-balls

>of blazing imaginary light in fright

> 

>As eyeballs, hurt and foregathered,

>Wink to the wince of the seeing

>Of a little sprightly otay

> 

>Which projects spikes of light

>Out the round smooth blue balloon

>Ball full of mountains and moons

> 

>Deep as the ocean, high as the moon,

>low as the lowliest river lagoon

>Fish in the Tar and pull in the Spar

> 

>Billy de Budd and Hanshan Emperor

>And all wall moongazers since

>Daniel Machree, Yeats see

> 

>Gaze at the moon ocean marking

>the face ----

>                                        In some cases

>                                        The moon is you

> 

>                                        In any case

>                                        The moon

> 

>thanks for the beauty, Ti Jean.  hope yr boppin' around the stars

> 

>ciao, sherri

> 

 

I agree and John Cale does it immense justice on "Kicks Joy Darkness" track

14. It's my favorite track after "Silly Goofball Poems" by Juliana

Hatfield. Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:18:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "p. durgin" <pdurgin@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject:      Help

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <344C03FA.1ADD028A@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

        Hey list people --

 

        I've misplaced my note with the commands on it, and I can't figure

out how to get off this list.  Can anyone help, please?

 

 

                     |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu|||

                        ___________________________

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:09:25 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Scattered Poems

Content-Type: text/plain

 

My delight too Bentz. I remember the discussion, didn't dream there

would be this kind of authentication. I am curious when he might have

written this. I wonder if he considered the "holy lunatics" as

synonymous with "beats"

 

leon

 

>Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:16:05 -0400

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

>Subject:      Scattered Poems

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>I picked up Scattered Poems, 1971, $2.00 from City Lights when I bought

>it back in 1977 or so to look for an inspired word from Jack on

>birthdays or some such.  I found, much to my delight, an introduction

>borrowed from "The Origins of Joy in Poetry".  I say it is my delight

>because it says somethings that I have argued here.  And it says a lot

>about the Men who Jack was associated.  Take it as Jack said it;

> 

>        The new American poetry as typified by the SF Renaissance

(which means

>Ginsberg, me, Rexroth, Ferlinghetti, McClure, Corso, Gary Snyder,

Philip

>Lamantia, Philip Whalen, I guess) is a kind of new-old Zen Lunacy

>poetry, writing whatever comes into your head as it comes, poetry

>returned to its origin, in the bardic child, truly ORAL as Ferling

said,

>instead of gray faced Academic quibbling.  Poetry & prose had for a

long

>time fallen into the false hands of the false.  These new pure poets

>confess forth the sheer joy of confession.  They are CHILDREN.  They

are

>also childlike graybeard Homers singing in the street.  They SING, they

>SWING.  It is diametrically opposed to the Eliot shot, who so dismally

>advises his dreay negative rules like the objective correlative, etc.

>which is just a lot of constipation and utlimately emasculation of the

>the pure masculine urge to freely sing.  In spite of the dry rules he

>set down his poetry is itself sublime.  I could say lots more but aint

>got time or sense.  But SF is the poetry of a new Holy Lunancy like

that

>of ancient times (Li Po, Hanshan, Tom O Bedlam, Kit Smart, Blake) yet

it

>also has that mental discipline typified by the haiku (Basho, Buson),

>that is, the discipline of pointing out things directly, purely,

>concretely, no abstractions, or explanations, wham wham the true blue

>song of man.

> 

>Jack Kerouac -- The Origions of Joy in Poetry.

>--

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

> 

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:30:57 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      More Input

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Howdy,

 

Well, I am off to a great start.  Thank you so much for visiting and the

few of you who have contributed thank you very much and I am looking

forward to more in the future.

 

I know some of you went to the site and got pissed, because there wasn't

a lot of material.  Well there is much more now.  Please continue to

come!  There is a rememberence page for Kerouac now.

 

On another note!  I am adding a page called writings on the wall.

Please come and express any gripes, anecdotes, small epitaphs, or other

ramblings there.  I would love to see this page thrive.

 

Again I cannot stress how grateful I am to those of you who have

visited.  Those who have not... Well, thats okay, I sympathise with you

as well, becasue of the volume of my posts about the site.

 

However, the sooner I get more input and submissions from you, the

sooner all this lobbying ends.  Thank you so much once again for your

time and patience.

keith

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:56:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      don quixote of tenderness

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Another favourite little batch of words....

 

Dharma Bums end of #17:

 

"I was started on my new life with my new equipment: a regular Don

Quixote of tenderness.  In the morning I felt exhilarated and meditated

first thing and made up a little prayer: 'I bless you, all living

things, I bless you in the endless past, I bless you in the endless

present, I bless you in the endless future, amen.'

 

This little prayer made me feel good and fool good as I packed up my

things and took off to the tumbling water that came down from a rock

across the highway, delicious spring water to bathe my face in and wash

my teeth in and drink.  Then I was ready for the three-thousand-mile

hitchhike to Rocky Mount, North Carolina, where my mother was waiting,

probably washing the dishes in her dear pitiful kitchen."

 

and later:

 

"I turned and knelt on the trail and said 'Thank you shack.'  Then added

'Blah,' with a little grin, because I knew that shack and that mountain

would understand what that meant, and turned and went on down the trail

back to this world."

 

all his endings are so beautiful to type

Desolation Angels:

 

"Later I'm back in New York sitting around with Irwin and Simon and

Raphael and Lazarus, and now we're famous writers more or less, but they

wonder why I'm so sunk now, so unexcited as we sit among all our

published books and poems, tho at least since I live with Memere in a

house of her own miles from the city, it's a peaceful sorrow.  A

peaceful sorrow at home is the best I'll ever be able to offer the

world, in the end, and so I told my Desolation Angels goodbye.  A new

life for me."

 

 

i really will try to stop this ... honest!!!  I used to go to parties --

mini-wakes -- on this night at Lynnea's back in Rock Island.  We'd all

read passages and the aftermath lasted for days.  It was in one of these

aftermaths with Kerouac's box set still dead on the hardwood floor that

i played the Yahtzee game that made it into my little firewalk thru

madness thingy.

 

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:38:14 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: The estate battle

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.96.971020141536.7614A-100000@poconos.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Entropy Operator wrote:

 

[Brown wrote]

 

> > If love and dedication is the standard, there's no doubt whose side

> > the angels are on.

 

> I dont get it.

> The list moderator kindly asked

> this thread be canceled

> yet i've gotten 50 non-beat

> related e-mails about the stupid

> fight.

 

Everything interpenetrates, so some of us are constantly testing the

limits. It's first nature with us.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

                     "Why can't it just be, Michael?"

 

           Simunye, in conversation with Foosi, September 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:32:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: politics

In-Reply-To:  <19971020235609.6771.qmail@hotmail.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Your thoughts were fine too :)

 

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Keith Medline wrote:

 

> I am sorry for the mistake.  Although my thought was porvacative...

> Sorry for opening my mouth?(keyboard?)

> 

> 

> >I was referring rather to the philosophical viewpoint of Nietzsche and

> >Foucault.  "Will to Power" -- will to politics.  Follow me?

> >

> >Dana

> >

> >On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Keith Medline wrote:

> >

> >> Ah, indeed you need to rethink this statement.  In America Politician

> >> has become sunonomous with evil.  We distrust our ministers.  Read

> the

> >> book by James Morone called "The Democratic Wish"  It is more likely

> >> that the American People choose the wrong people to give them reform.

> >> i.e= Jackson

> >> Okay enough about that.  Political statements are the driving force

> in

> >> most literature of merit.  Please do not condemn politicians, or the

> >> people that elect them, more likely retract your statement and accept

> >> the political system in American is flawed.  Inherently it cannot

> work.

> >> Our federalist constitution ensures this.  We gain protection from

> >> radical ideas and sweeping reform at the cost of a gridlocked

> >> governmental institution.  Checks and balances are the true culprits

> you

> >> need to address not the pawns(politicians...)

> >> Thank you

> >> keith

> >>

> >> ______________________________________________________

> >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> >>

> >

> 

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:58:42 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: howl with a whine chaser

 

Marie - you have outdone yourself!!  thanks for the laugh!!

 

come on - tell me bout your trip.  (of course i'm sure you have between 300

and 400 posts to wade through - having been away for 2 weeks myself, not long

ago)

 

take care,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:39:34 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "MYLES A. HASELHORST" <hase8846@BLUE.UNCO.EDU>

Subject:      Poem

In-Reply-To:  <v01530500630fc025578a@[204.181.15.86]>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Ahead nor behind

neither is important

   -the single moment-

with every turn is

a new face

never an answer.

Within Death's eyes

is peace;

Death is only--Truth.

 Is it when you look in the mirror

  that you forget yourself?

   Would your life hold up between

heavan and hell

 or in judgment?

Truth is your answer.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:40:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate rehashing & the Memory Babe Collection

In-Reply-To:  <34499A4D.5EA9@together.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

No flames here. Nothing to take away from JK's birthday.

 

 

Friends

 

There has been some rehashing, but there has also been some incredibly

intersting NEW information.

 

Ultimately the conflicts break down to three:

1. Jan Keroauc's will (ie: Can someone step forward and censor what a

person has written?) and

2. Jan Keroauc's claim that Jack Keroauc's mother's signature on her will

was forged, and

3. Gerry Nicosia's desire to legally remove the Memory Babe Collection from

the U.Mass Library--returning the money they paid for it--and placing it in

a library where the material will be open to students, teachers,

researchers, etc.

 

In the meantime, I (and probably many others) collect the posts on the

issues, with thoughts of looking back at the words of condemnation aimed at

Gerry Nicosia. When the courts finally resolve the issues I have a feeling

those posts will provoke some interesting comments.

 

For what it's worth I sincerely believe that Jan's freedom of speech and

her right to be free of censorship will win out over those trying to change

her will.  As a member of the National Writers Union I am going to try to

interest our over 4000 members in helping protect Jan's last testiment. The

case in St. Pete, Florida--Jan's forgery claim--will never be heard in

court if Lash and Sampas successfully censor Jan's will and get rid of

Gerry Nicosia.

 

Re-claiming the Memory Babe Collection will take legal fees that Gerry

Nicosia does not have. Since I'm living on a fixed income--Social

Security--of less than $500.00 a month, I can't cover any portion of the

legal fees it will take. But since some of the most meaningful moments of

my life have been spent in libraries, and since I feel strongly about

collections being cared for, preserved, and open to researchers I'm going

to do everything in my power to help Nicosia get his Memory Babe Collection

into a library with a staff that has the knowledge and resources to keep

the collection open to researchers and do what has to be done to preserve

the tapes.

 

A few years ago I came up with a character based on librarians/teachers

very dear to me. One of the people was Agnes Tuttle, my fifth grade teacher

at Woodrow Wilson elementary school, Fargo, North Dakota, 1939. What a

nobel woman. I called my character the Incredible Librarian, did a few

illustrated stories but never got them into print  A few thgousand

librarians ended up with t-shirts, but since it was almost nine years ago

those shirts may be ready to retire.

 

There are also sweat shirts. (On my way to the UW madison library this

morning I noticed the snow fences up between Gorham St and the beech by the

locks on Lake Mendota. Bummer.)

 

To my Incredible Librarian nothing is impossible. Perhaps some on the Beat

List remember her often repeated quote: "In the defense of freedom and

literacy, libraries are the most powerful weapons we have. Use them!"

 

I'm not much of an artist, but in a few days I'm going to show the list a

t-shirt, an Incredible Librarian t-shirt, that you might want to buy for

the librarian you love. I'll have the art, on the shirts, posted at my

http://www.bookzen.com site in a few days.

 

All proceeds to go to Save the Memory Babe Collection fund. And I'll have

it set up

 

I'm not doing this to provoke anyone. I just want to see that collection

preserved and open for researchers. I hope others feel as strongly as I do

about this matter.

 

More information soon.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:58:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sampas calls on Gyenis for reinforcements

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971019200708.13526A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>"Ihereby appoint John Lash as General Executor of this will for all

>purposes, SAVE those concerning any rights that I now possess or may

>hereafter possess in any literary works or literary archival materials,

>including but not limited to any literary works or literary materials of

>my father, Jack Kerouac, and my own literary works and materials,

>including but not limited to "Baby Driver" and "Train Song".  As to these

>literary works and materials, I appoint GERALD NICOSIA as Literary

>Executor.  In his capacity as Literary Executor, he shall make all

>decisions regarding the appropriate publication, republication, sale,

>license, or any other exploitation of any nature of any intellectual

>rights I have in any literary works or materials.  He shall do these

>things with due regard to fostering economic return without devaluing or

>cheapening the literary works or any intellectual property rights flowing

>therefrom, or in any way reflecting negatively on me, my father, or my

>heirs or beneficiaries.

> 

>In return for his services as Literary Executor, GERALD NICOSIA shall

>receive as compensation 10% (ten percent) of any income generated by

>publications, sales, or other licensing arrangements that he has

>negotiated, payable to him at receipt of any such income by the estate"

> 

>>From Jan Kerouac's will.

 

Thank you Mr. Wallner.

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:10:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: back and buried

In-Reply-To:  <199710201158.HAA11523@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>howdy all.

>first full day back from week, 8 stop road trip. came home to discover i

>had 796 messages awaitin' me.

>road dust gives power

>to finger

>to delete key

>glad to be back. hope to catch up;

>perhaps,

>just maybe,

>i

>can

>mc

 

Isn't it a rush to hit that delete key and watch a few hundred msgs

disappear. even though it was tough to do.

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 03:14:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      What person would they like to meet?

 

If you asked Jack, Neal, Allen, and William the following question, what do

you think their answer would be?

 

QUESTION: What person would you like to meet, living or dead; and why?

 

I asked Kurt Vonnegut that question and he said Mark Twain. Maybe Jack would

like to have met his brother Gerard.

 

A question for you all to ponder out there in webland.

 

is Kurt beat?

so it goes, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:37:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971020162107.28922A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Sherri wrote:

> 

>> Richard, while that's noble, Gerry or anyone else does deserve something for

>> the huge amount of work this can entail.  unless the executor is someone who

>> is independently wealthy, s/he couldn't work a second job in order to

>>put food

>> on the table.

> 

>Nicosia has doubtless made plenty of money from "Memory Babe" and his

>other writing endeavors.  When you become an executor of a "friend's"

>estate, you should want to do so out of love, not money.

> 

>Would Nicosia have accepted the job if the cut was 5% or 2%.  Where does

>personal interest end and financial interest begin?  Everyone involved in

>this is hip deep in greed of one form or another.

> 

>Jack Kerouac died broke and all these people want is to make money off of

>him....very sad.

> 

>RJW

 

During the last year or so of her life I talked to jan quite a bit. She

trustd Gerry because he had been her friend for as long as she had known

him. Through good and bad times. He didn't ask for a percentage, Jan put

that in her will.

 

Your post is really not fair. Geerry Nicosia was jan's choice--her

insurance--that her wishes would be followed. Not because of money, but

because he was her friend.

 

As for Memory Babe generating income for Nicosia... I sure hope it has.

When you spend years and years and years researching a book it would be a

damn shame if it didn't sell. But you can believe that his life style is

modest and both he and his wife work.

 

You say:

 

>Jack Kerouac died broke and all these people want is to make money off of

>him....very sad.

 

It's not that simple. I'm an outsider who simply wants the Keroauc archives

in a safe, secure environment where everything can be cared for and

preserved. At least one of the principles--IMHO--wants that too. As I'm

sure you do. There's no question that it's what JK wanted.

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:20:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: a feeble attempt to honor Jack

 

sherri...

 

great post.  nice poem.

 

john j dorfner

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:46:40 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      10/21/69

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

two a.m.

desolate millsounds

thundering resounding machinery

        I think of Duluoz

 

under orion's belt

illuminated plume of steam

towering over the town

        I think of Duluoz

 

cool crisp October air

light snowfall

my own Desolation

        I think of Duluoz

 

100 miles of open highway going

      north

west         east

      south

        I think of Duluoz

 

'Round Midnight

Ornithology

Salt Peanuts!

        I think of Duluoz

 

All Life Is Suffering

walking on water wasn't built in a day

you can't fall off a mountain!

        I think of Duluoz

 

Redbrick

Lowell

Shadowyvisions of Dr. Sax

        I think of Duluoz

 

Irwin on the subway

Bull in Louisiana

Dean naked in the doorway

        I think of Duluoz

 

Chicago-jazz & tea high

Denver-holy visions

San Francisco-boddhisatvas, midnight angels

        I think of Duluoz

 

Mexican fellaheen

Mexican tea

Mexican whores

        I think of Duluoz

 

Southern Pacific

Midnight Ghost

the St. Teresa Bum

        I think of Duluoz

 

Gallery Six

Wail

Go!

        I think of Duluoz

 

Desolation peak

Hozomeen looming

ennui & haikus

        I think of Duluoz

 

King of the beatniks

generation spokesperson

beaten

        I think of Duluoz

 

Big Sur

delerium

Sea

        I think of Duluoz

 

Lowell

Stella

Memere's apronstrings

        I think of Duluoz

 

has-been

drunk

lousy father & husband

        I think of Duluoz

 

2:30 a.m.

sounds of Monk &

sounds of the mill

        I think of Duluoz

                   Paradise

                   Smith

 

Kerouac

 

Is all well?

Will all be well?

 

Just keep guarding us,

                      Jacky, m'boy

 

 

--Adrien Begrand

10/21/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 05:32:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Questions for Gerry (estate matters)

 

Gerry,

 

In an attempt for accuracy I have the following questions.

 

1)  When did you start your drive to save the Kerouac archives? If it was

after your book was published, why didn't you think it was important while

you were working on your book? Why did you wait so long?

 

2) When and how did Jan discover that Memere's will appeared to be forged,

and when and how did you come upon this discovery?

 

3) Are you saying that under Jan's will as literary executor, a) you get a

share and control over Jan's portion of Jack's royalties?  b) that Jan's

estate (and you) will get a share and control over Jack's archives when and

if they are sold?  c) all of the above?  d) fill in blank ______________

 

Should we make the assumption that you are already getting 10% of Jan's

royalties from Jack's books, as literary executor (or entitled to it).

 

>From Jan's will:  ...SAVE those concerning any rights that I now possess or

may

hereafter possess in any literary works or literary archival materials,

including but not limited to any literary works or literary materials of

my father, Jack Kerouac, and my own literary works and materials,

including but not limited to "Baby Driver" and "Train Song"... (from BookZen

website)

 

4)  Does Jan now possess the rights (other then royalties) to the sale of

Jack's archives? Does her estate have a legal right to a percentage of the

monies if the archives are sold?

 

It is my understanding  that currently (and until the Florida court case

 that will determine, legally anyway, whether Memere's will is a fraud or

not) Jan's estate is not entitled to any monies from the sale of Jack's

archives. (please let me know if I am wrong)

 

5) What year did Jan start getting royalties from Jack's books?

 

6) Were you at the hospital when she died?

 

And if I was wrong in anything I stated in my previous post, I apologize

because the last thing I want to do is add another layer of misinformation to

this discussion.

 

thanks for your consideration in this matter.

Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:08:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: favorite JK poem

 

i also love "silly goofball poems"...pure kerouac...

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:31:19 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: More Input

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

hey keith: i lost the http: address; also i'm embarrassed that my stuff is

up w/out a chance to edit and choose and send more representative stuff.

like being caught mooning the motherload of beat afficianados,

address, and editorial rights?

mc

 

Keith Medline wrote:

 

> Howdy,

> 

> Well, I am off to a great start.  Thank you so much for visiting and the

> few of you who have contributed thank you very much and I am looking

> forward to more in the future.

> 

> I know some of you went to the site and got pissed, because there wasn't

> a lot of material.  Well there is much more now.  Please continue to

> come!  There is a rememberence page for Kerouac now.

> 

> On another note!  I am adding a page called writings on the wall.

> Please come and express any gripes, anecdotes, small epitaphs, or other

> ramblings there.  I would love to see this page thrive.

> 

> Again I cannot stress how grateful I am to those of you who have

> visited.  Those who have not... Well, thats okay, I sympathise with you

> as well, becasue of the volume of my posts about the site.

> 

> However, the sooner I get more input and submissions from you, the

> sooner all this lobbying ends.  Thank you so much once again for your

> time and patience.

> keith

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:37:33 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: don quixote of tenderness

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

david: i tender you thanks for this packet of tenderness. you're right

about his endings, and desolation ending so true to his life and its

ending.

thanks

mc

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

> Another favourite little batch of words....

> 

> Dharma Bums end of #17:

> 

> "I was started on my new life with my new equipment: a regular Don

> Quixote of tenderness.  In the morning I felt exhilarated and meditated

> first thing and made up a little prayer: 'I bless you, all living

> things, I bless you in the endless past, I bless you in the endless

> present, I bless you in the endless future, amen.'

> 

> This little prayer made me feel good and fool good as I packed up my

> things and took off to the tumbling water that came down from a rock

> across the highway, delicious spring water to bathe my face in and wash

> my teeth in and drink.  Then I was ready for the three-thousand-mile

> hitchhike to Rocky Mount, North Carolina, where my mother was waiting,

> probably washing the dishes in her dear pitiful kitchen."

> 

> and later:

> 

> "I turned and knelt on the trail and said 'Thank you shack.'  Then added

> 'Blah,' with a little grin, because I knew that shack and that mountain

> would understand what that meant, and turned and went on down the trail

> back to this world."

> 

> all his endings are so beautiful to type

> Desolation Angels:

> 

> "Later I'm back in New York sitting around with Irwin and Simon and

> Raphael and Lazarus, and now we're famous writers more or less, but they

> wonder why I'm so sunk now, so unexcited as we sit among all our

> published books and poems, tho at least since I live with Memere in a

> house of her own miles from the city, it's a peaceful sorrow.  A

> peaceful sorrow at home is the best I'll ever be able to offer the

> world, in the end, and so I told my Desolation Angels goodbye.  A new

> life for me."

> 

> i really will try to stop this ... honest!!!  I used to go to parties --

> mini-wakes -- on this night at Lynnea's back in Rock Island.  We'd all

> read passages and the aftermath lasted for days.  It was in one of these

> aftermaths with Kerouac's box set still dead on the hardwood floor that

> i played the Yahtzee game that made it into my little firewalk thru

> madness thingy.

> 

> david

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:46:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      Estate $$$$

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

 

I would think that it was pretty clear that if Gerry Nicosia wins the

estate battle, he stands to gain all the $$$ that go with it. I'd like

to see him make a clear, unequivocal statement for the record what HE

intends to do with that money. Never mind whether anyone deserves it, or

how hard he's worked or all the abuse he feels he has put up with. What

is he going to do with the money?

 

I propose that after all the tears, the polemic and whining, this whole

business is all about MONEY and belongs to the courts and to the

lawyers.

 

What's the story Gerry?

 

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:16:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Estate $$$$

Comments: To: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <1017B7AD7D34D111B9C900805FC1D3AE101B5F@and02.drc.com>

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On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Hemenway . Mark wrote:

 

> I would think that it was pretty clear that if Gerry Nicosia wins the

> estate battle, he stands to gain all the $$$ that go with it. I'd like

> to see him make a clear, unequivocal statement for the record what HE

> intends to do with that money. Never mind whether anyone deserves it, or

 

Well he'd certainly use some of it to buy back the "Memory babe" archives

which is a worthwile thing to do.  My questions of his motives aside, I

hope Nicosia winsbecause Jack Kerouac was a deadbeat dad, and I always

wanted Jan to get her share of his legacy.

 

Also, from everything Ive read, Kerouac's last marriage was a sham,

because his mother was sick and he needed a substitute mother figure.  I

dont think he loved this woman romantically and wouldnt have wanted her

family handling his legacy.

 

I think he did write that last letter.

 

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:12:30 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: your mail

In-Reply-To:  <971020203344_-2146362464@emout08.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I think it's incredibly typical of the era.  It has only been recently

that women's presence in subculture has been acknowledged. The Beats

weren't the only ones doing it.  I remember reading somewhere that the

Mods referred to themselves as a male subculture and that any women who

happened to be involved with them were, in fact, their girlfriends.  Same

goes for Rockabilly;  all those guys making that wonderful music....the

women who were putting out some of the same smokin' tunes were merely an

afterthought (Janis Martin, Sparkle Moore, Wanda Jackson...) Put it in

perspective...these were the 1950's, after all.  They may have been

progressive in some ways, but obviously not in others.

Anne Sneddon

 

 

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Marlene Giraud wrote:

 

> Dana and others,

> 

> Okay, not to sound like some flaming feminist,but what do you mean by,

> "hitchiking isn't safe any more, especially for a girl." I mean i know its

> dangerous, but thats goes for everyone. By the way, I'd like to know what all

> the listees think about the Beat's attitudes towards women. Was it negative?

> supportive? abusive? put on a pedestal type? I'd like to know everybody's

> thoughts on the subject, especially because I recently saw Women of the Beat

> Generation out in bookstores.

> i'd like to add that i'm a college student as well. Nice to see some other

> younguns on the list. :) Please don't take my question offensively, I simply

> want to know what you all think. Take care

>                              ~~Marlene

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:38:35 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: More Input

Content-Type: text/plain

 

the URL

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

press ctrl-d when you are there to bookmark it

keith

 

>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Oct 21 05:34:00 1997

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>Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:31:19 +0000

>Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

>Subject:      Re: More Input

>To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>hey keith: i lost the http: address; also i'm embarrassed that my stuff

is

>up w/out a chance to edit and choose and send more representative

stuff.

>like being caught mooning the motherload of beat afficianados,

>address, and editorial rights?

>mc

> 

>Keith Medline wrote:

> 

>> Howdy,

>> 

>> Well, I am off to a great start.  Thank you so much for visiting and

the

>> few of you who have contributed thank you very much and I am looking

>> forward to more in the future.

>> 

>> I know some of you went to the site and got pissed, because there

wasn't

>> a lot of material.  Well there is much more now.  Please continue to

>> come!  There is a rememberence page for Kerouac now.

>> 

>> On another note!  I am adding a page called writings on the wall.

>> Please come and express any gripes, anecdotes, small epitaphs, or

other

>> ramblings there.  I would love to see this page thrive.

>> 

>> Again I cannot stress how grateful I am to those of you who have

>> visited.  Those who have not... Well, thats okay, I sympathise with

you

>> as well, becasue of the volume of my posts about the site.

>> 

>> However, the sooner I get more input and submissions from you, the

>> sooner all this lobbying ends.  Thank you so much once again for your

>> time and patience.

>> keith

>> 

>> ______________________________________________________

>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:41:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What person would they like to meet?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I would say Allen would probably want to meet Walt Whitman.  JK would want

to meet Jesus or the Buddha.

 

That's what I'm thinking right now.

 

Jon

 

At 03:14 AM 10/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

>If you asked Jack, Neal, Allen, and William the following question, what do

>you think their answer would be?

> 

>QUESTION: What person would you like to meet, living or dead; and why?

> 

>I asked Kurt Vonnegut that question and he said Mark Twain. Maybe Jack would

>like to have met his brother Gerard.

> 

>A question for you all to ponder out there in webland.

> 

>is Kurt beat?

>so it goes, Attila

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:49:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I think my favorite Jk poem would have to be either Poems of the Buddhas of

Old or the poem: "I am God".

 

Just wanted to add my favorites to the list.

 

Jon

 

      And any time you need

          me

Call

       I'll be at the other

        end

    Waiting

           at the final hall

 

                                JK, San Francisco Blues 80th Chorus

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:06:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: your mail

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>Okay, not to sound like some flaming feminist,but what do you mean by,

>"hitchiking isn't safe any more, especially for a girl." I mean i know

>its

>dangerous, but thats goes for everyone. By the way, I'd like to know

>what all

>the listees think about the Beat's attitudes towards women.

 

     i think that in fact it is more dangerous for women.  rape, for

example, is predominately a male victimizing female situation.  and,

when you think about violent physical acts, mass murderers, typical

killers, serial killers, etc.  they're almost always men.  and i don't

care what anyone says about everybody being the same, on average men

are capable of more physical force than women, yeah, there are plenty

of massive bodybuilder women, and plenty of dinky little guys, but i'm

talking about the average majority.  not trying to start the men/women

battle here, no one wants to get into that monotonous argument.

     as far as beattitudes on women, it depends on the writer.  Jack

obviously had a different outlook on women than Neal, or Lucien, or

Allen, or Bill, or John.  you have to be careful not to include the

general outlooks of relationships between the sexes as imposed by the

time period, i.e. the 50's, in which the beats grew up.  the beats have

to be examined within the context of that period's cultural norms,

which still emphasized, and did so very strongly, the home and family

with a breadwinning dad and mom at home with the kids.  especially for

Jack, and i can second this being franco-american and having from birth

till college (a few years ago) lived in a french mill town; if you

aren't familiar with franco-american culture, it's very familty-based

work ethic oriented.  not so much now as it was for my grandparents who

had seven kids, 16 grandchildren.  only one went to college. they all

stayed in the same town until within the past few years, but those who

ventured out of town only went so far as one town away.  every sunday

morning after church everyone goes to my grandmother's for muffins,

donuts, coffee, and some 15 adults are all talking at once in the

kitchen whie the kids are running around all over inside and out.  i

lived my entire childhood in the house, a two story building with an

apartment upstairs and down, that my great grandfather built himself.

my grandmother still lives there, i grew up upstairs from them.  my

grandmother lived on that street at birth, my mother lived on that

street at birth, and i lived there at birth.  interesting thing about

regional french here, memere is the term i use for my grandmother,

pronounced meh-may, as opposed to meh-mahyer, like paul's last name.

mom was just mom.  pepere is grandad.  mon oncle and ma taunt (pardon

my spelling) are uncle and aunt until i started calling them by their

first names, which they didn't like but they were forced to get used

to.

     anyway, before i write my biog, i'll stop.  be nice of other frogs

(hehe) on the list would write about their environments, very

discussion where jack is concerned.  any lowellites on the list?  by

the way, if anyone's interested, my hometown is Biddeford, Maine...

it's about a 45 minute or so ride north of Lowell, MA.  about 1.5 hrs

to downtown boston, very close to Nashua, NH.  so i pretty much grew up

in good old fashioned jack tradition.  oh yeah, high school football is

all the rage in Biddeford.  state champs many a time.

     by the way, i work with a guy that looks so much like jack it

scares the hell out of me.. his eys are an identical match, i mean,

perfect.  feels like he's looking inside your head.  anyone else have

experiences like this?  the funniest is when you see a balding wild

haired bearded guy that looks like allen... hehehehehe..... gotta love

it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:12:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: pockets of beat

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>what kind of freedom do junkies and prostitutes enjoy?

 

     freedom from being.  very briefly, greek stuff, apollonian,

dionnyssian.  apollonian false optimism, emphasizes self, dionnyssian,

"pessimism," loss of self.  it's best to have never been born, but

we've already been cheated of that, so the next best thing is to die

and die young.  call it escapism, say they're not free because they're

addicted, whatever, i've never been more free than high and dancing for

hours around a hot fire in the woods at night.  when you lose perceptin

of self, you escape yourself, the most sought and highest freedom....

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:22:41 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate debate)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,Internet writes:

>I like your sense of activism.  However on a campus with 48,000 kids it

>is difficult to get the word out.  I have started a web page as you have

>probably seen.  However, until I get more exposure and knowledge on the

>subject I want to remain less active.  That was what I am getting at, it

>is hard to balance my school with my web page, with my personal

>readings.

 

     i see what you mean. it is hard.  if you could have classes to

attend about beats that would also be what you want to read personally,

etc.  there must be a prof on a campus of that size that likes the

beats and would be willing to teach a course on them.  have you visited

the english department to check this out? do you have a university

e-mail system where you can send one out to the entire school

community?  unfortunately, it'll end up being time consuming in one way

or another. i was thinking of making some short mixed tapes of jack,

bill, and allen reading their stuff and put it in dorm lobbies with a

message about starting something, to try and get new people turned on

to the beats. the great thing about doing this stuff in college is that

if you officialize it as a club you should be eligible for a small

amount of campus activity funds to do a few things.  i'd try to find

others already interested in the beats and work together to get

something started, splitting up tasks will be much less time consuming,

and you can fall back on each other.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:29:16 -0400

Reply-To:     cmdumond@ehc.edu

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>

Subject:      Visions of Jack

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Beautiful Jack, if you had only outlived the slings and arrows

 

VISIONS OF JACK

 

I awake

and I look across the landscape, familiar

and yet foreign to me to day.

Gazing

seeing miles of endless, pockmarked landscape

which is not craters

but actually the faces of a thousand pimplefaced teens

of a highschool wasteland

now left behind.

Finding

that the gray, dusty frontier of what is ahead

to be the ashes of a million Marlboro cigarettes

to be the ashes of a million Camel cigarettes

of our american heros and

the litter of a million tumorous lungs

Reading

in the bibles of all faiths

that hundreds of trees were put forth by god

to be processed into the twothousand pages of

the creation of man

(failure to create something better than man

in a priest)

Asking

just what does  lunar  mean?

I don t know.  Neither does the little bird

who lives in a faded white house

with one shingle folded for a roof.

It means nothing to him

It means nothing to me.

Seeing

Queer little boys being pampered by fathers

In every grocery store in the United States

While Mothers bring the bread home

to sissy little children and spoiled men

who go to grocery stores for hardware.

Building

absolutely nothing, not because I can t

but because there is exactly zero

space to build it in and exactly zero

time to do it in.

(Wishing

Someone else knew that this time thing

of the one hundred year flood

was really the thousand year drain

of a billion years of evolution

as science turns around and eats itself.)

Brooding

over the fact that Einstein

was soo  right and Newton was so wrong

and that no one cares at all

except me and Nick and Jack and Kurt Vonnegut

but not Joyce.

Knowing

that the womb is a closet of sorts

that harbours the one ignorance

which is life, which is debated

in the halls of pretentious legislatures everywhere

passing out  bent sticks  to everyone.

(especially in China)

Wondering

if missed opportunity is an opportunity at all

with five of them under my belt

I wear everyday anyway

I honestly don t find them weighing me down

much at all.

Debating

almost everything almost everyday

a million ideas that go in one ear and out my mouth

and not a single person seems to have

the slightest idea as to what

it means

Stacking

periodical literature of world events

three miles high with a stack of papers

three feet tall and crying about my swollen

fingers from writing fivehundred

essays for posterity

Hating

and having to think about it is something

all of two or three people in the whole world

who I would not hesitate to punch

if they walked crooked the line

I draw in lunacy

Pleurer

vous avez deveni trhs gros

dans votre quarante-sept annies de chercher pour la vie et

pour la c ur des Itas-Unis avec Neal

dit Dean et vous, Paradise et Duluoz,

Jack the Louse

Drinking

Johnny Walker Red Label and Tequila

out of Evian bottles at one in the morning

to breakdance to Queen in the parking lot

of Mobile Gas Stations

at three

Hearing

your voice when I sleep and when I drive

In your memory thirty (almost) years later

it s comforting but alarming

you were drunk I know and

my heros are all fuckups

Pausing

to pay tribute to all the parents of the world

who hate their 2.2 children and regularly

tell them they are worthless of the

indignity they endure hourly

at the expense of dementia

Gulping

your pills straight down Starbucks coffee

one pill two pill red pill blue pill

that s what makes the wheel go round

and why I wear my seatbelt everywhere

even when I m parked.

Having

a laugh at Walt Whitman s words

you were 80 years too early Walt!

But oh, the things you ve seen in the futures

you knew all along and it

didn t make any difference

Going

on forever this poem is like an Interstate

like 81 in the valley of Virginia that I

will call home for the next four years of my long life

and will whiz along

to see my baby

Calling

and waiting for no one to pick up

I know, I called five times before for the same reasons

I ve been off work for over an hour

but hey,

why the hell should you be home?

Reading

the same line over and over again,

I ve read it three times already and now

I m now  reading it for the fourth

I don t really like it,

I m just stuck

Getting

your kicks on State Route Six

It goes on for three thousand miles from

New York to California

the crowded redbrick road of desolation

has died of old age.

 

        Chris Dumond

        August '97

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:13:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric R Wood <wooderi1@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate debate)

In-Reply-To:  <msg1094460.thr-2b1d.55d4ae2@umit.maine.edu> from "Tyson

              Ouellette" at Oct 21, 97 01:22:41 pm

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I believe we both go to MSU (Michigan State University).  In my residential

public affairs college, James Madison college, there is a first year writing

prof who has a class about the beats.  I couldn't get into it, but I heard it

was decent.  There are quite a few of us here who like the beats.  There are

more Vonegut and bukowski fans than Kerouac fans though.

Eric Wood

wooderi1@pilot.msu.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:03:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      I will not be gagged

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Dear Folks on the Beat List - in what may be my last post - fittingly, on

Jack's death day, Tuesday October 21, 1997 (he died on a Tuesday too)

 

        I thought I had seen the apogee of outrageousness when I was hauled

by police out of NYU for defending Jan Kerouac's right to speak at a

conference about her father.  I hadn't.  Now I am warned by Mr. Gargan that

if I continue to speak about the Kerouac Estate, I will be banned from the

Beat-List.

        I refuse to be censored, especially considering what is going on

here right under Mr. Gargan's and everybody else's noses.

        We have an onslaught of posts attacking virtually every area of my

life, making outrageous, false claims and suggestions about who I am, what I

am doing, why I am doing it, etc.  People are speculating about how many

millions of dollars I am making.  Paul Maher, Attila Gyenis, and Mark

Hemenway are continuing to talk about the Kerouac Estate as much as they

please (Mr. Chaput, following last May's pattern, appears to be taking a

rest while the rest of his gang take swings at me).  All of these

individuals, friends of John Sampas who are involved in business dealings

with him and who are therefore clearly PARTISAN, also spoke freely about

matters related to the Kerouac estate for the five months while I was off

the list.

        In short, according to Mr. Gargan, Mr. Sampas's whole entourage can

say anything they want about me or the Kerouac Estate, but I am not allowed

to speak in reply, under threat of being banned from the list.  This is an

outrageously UNFAIR SITUATION, and I am protesting it here and now with this

post.

        Mr. Gargan claims I am a "mud slinger."  The strongest words I used

were "crazy" and "bullshit"--not even in the same league with Mr. Maher's

vocabulary.  But be that as it may, was I not mightily provoked?  Before I

used those words, I was told my touch is poisonous, I destroy archives, I am

part of a "Clinton conspiracy," a "very desperate man" who resorts to

"hogwash and crap," etc. etc.  Not only did they insult me, but Mr. Maher

took it upon himself to paint my dead friend Jan Kerouac, one of the dearest

people in my life for 20 years, as a cheap golddigger filing "bogus

lawsuits" with her eye on the main chance.  All of this has been followed up

with charges that I am "not pure" because I don't work for free and that I

only accepted Jan's request to be her literary executor because it would

make me rich.

        I may have written "the best of the Kerouac biographies"--as the

WASHINGTON POST said recently--but I AM ONLY HUMAN.  As Shylock says, if you

prick a Jew, will he not bleed?  Italians bleed too when you stab a knife in

them ten different ways, and like everybody else, they sometimes get a

little angry.

        And who are these people attacking me?  My record of Kerouac

scholarship goes back 20 years.  I have published OVER 200 books, articles,

prefaces, etc. on Kerouac and the Beats during that time.  I have taught

courses in the Beats at the University of Illinois and UCLA.  I have

lectured on Kerouac in over a hundred places in several different countries,

and at scores of universities and colleges, including NYU in 1994.  The

people who are attacking me are 1) a reformed book thief (Mr. Maher); 2) the

owner of a diner (Mr. Chaput); 3) a computer jock (Mr. Hemenway); and 4) Mr.

Gyenis, who I believe is a baker.

        Mr. Gargan called for a truce on Jack's death day.  Well today is

Jack's death day, and I open my email to find two hugely malicious postings

from Mr. Mark Hemenway (who, according to Phil Chaput, is on intimate terms

with Mr. Sampas) and his former business partner at THE KEROUAC CONNECTION,

Attila Gyenis, whose attack is no less vitriolic even though it is couched

as "questions" this time, rather than direct statements.

        Mr. Hemenway out and out tells the public that my work as Jan

Kerouac's literary executor is "all about MONEY."  Mr. Gyenis implies as

much with his leading "questions"--asking if I get "a share and control over

Jan's portion of Jack's royalties" when he has just read Jan's will, which

Wallner posted, which does not say that at all.  So why ask such a question

if you already know the answer?  Just to put misleading thoughts in people's

heads?  Then he asks another question whose answer should be obvious to

him--why didn't I try to get the Kerouac Estate made accessible when I

worked on MEMORY BABE?  I did, I talked with Tony Sampas about this issue

for hours on end, and Tony said he wanted the archive to be accessible too,

BUT HE COULDN'T OPPOSE HIS SISTER STELLA, who voted to have it closed.

        Why did I wait so long?  That, again, is a question that makes no

sense, unless it is to plant the idea of me being an opportunist in people's

heads.  THERE WAS NO LAW SUIT FOR ME TO HELP JAN WITH UNTIL 1994, and a

large part of Jan's reason for filing the suit was TO STOP JOHN SAMPAS FROM

SELLING OFF PIECES OF KEROUAC'S ARCHIVE TO COLLECTORS AND DEALERS, which

didn't begin until 1991.

        As for his asking me how I discovered the forgery of Memere's will,

this is yet one more question HE DOES NOT NEED TO ASK.  I answered ALL THESE

QUESTIONS IN A DETAILED DEPOSITION TAKEN BY MR. SAMPAS'S LAWYER TWO YEARS

AGO, and he could easily get Sampas to show him that deposition.  Sampas

clearly showed him Jan's deposition last May, since many of Mr. Gyenis's

posts at that time revealed statements (and often misstatements made by

Sampas's lawyer) that only existed in one place: Jan's deposition.

        Mr. Gargan, if you are a fair man, I call upon you to open your eyes

and SEE what is happening here.

        Suppose, Mr. Gargan, that four individuals linked to your worst

enemy began making such posts ABOUT YOU:

        Mr. Gargan, your touch is poisonous, it destroys books--you should

not be working in a library.

        Mr. Gargan, we know you are part of the Clinton conspiracy.

        Mr. Gargan, you clearly started the Beat-List as a means to get rich.

        Mr. Gargan, we have evidence that you are operating the Beat List

illegally.

        Mr. Gargan, if you were "pure," you would donate your entire salary

to the Naropa Institute.

        Would it take you very long to figure out what was going on?  Would

you feel justified in getting maybe a little mad?  Is it possible you might

even find yourself using the word LIE, which I used, which is a strong word

to describe an unscrupulous action, but is not a profanity?

        A lie is an honest English word that describes someone saying

something he knows is not true.  I assert that Mr. Hemenway's post this

morning was a lie, because he knows better.  If he is on the intimate terms

with Mr. Sampas that Phil Chaput suggests, then he knows as much as Mr.

Sampas.  And Mr. Sampas knows everything about my finances, since he is

working with Mr. Lash to have me thrown out as Jan Kerouac's literary

executor.  He knows:

        1) I have not yet earned one penny as Jan Kerouac's literary

executor.  Mr. Lash has tied up Jan's entire income, currently over $100,000

a year in Kerouac royalties, which were not always that high but trebled

starting in 1993.  Mr. Lash was able to tie up that income because Mr.

Sampas instructed Mr. Lord to pay it to him, and Mr. Lord is Mr. Sampas's

agent.  Even if Lash had not tied it up, I would still get none of it

because I am only to be paid for NEW DEALS WHICH I NEGOTIATE MYSELF.

        2) I now have $95,000 in legal bills.

        3) I now have close to $10,000 out of pocket, for airfare and hotel

rooms for me and my lawyer (when we have to go to court in St. Petersburg

and Albuquerque), and general office expenses, fax, copies, etc. Mr. Lash

has so far reimbursed these to the tune of about $650.

        4) Far from "gaining all the $$$ that go with the Kerouac Estate,"

as Mr. Hemenway suggests, he could, if he simply read Jan's will, know that

the most I would gain from it would be 10% of Jan's one-third. If the

Archive is sold to a library, which I am committed to see done, that would

bring in one million dollars.  Jan's share would be $333,333.  My share, if

I help negotiate the sale, would be $33,000.  Bear in mind that I have

already worked a year and a half with no pay.

        Mr. Gargan, all of the above individuals are close enough to Mr.

Sampas to know that the suggestions they are making are not true--are, in

fact, lies.  Yet they make them in the hope that Beat-List readers will

think "oh, where there's smoke there's fire, Nicosia must be a big crook."

        You cannot gag me from telling my side of the story, and let lies

like this run rampant.

        And yes, I am sorry I had to say all this on the sacred day that

Saint Jack (as Aronowitz calls him) died.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:04:54 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: I will not be gagged

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

hey guys:

i was beyond disenchanted i was outraged to find in my mail this afternoon a

continuation of the mudslinging contest of which  mr nicosia has  been the

target.

i don't blame him in the least for his response to the continuation of this

whole fucking mess.

he kept quiet while others continued to campaign - for what????

this is the same crap which pushed ron whitehead off this list, and for which

the list is sorely lacking in enthusiasm and high spirits. i've been

contemplating whether to go or stay, since returning and dredging through all

the acrimony.

i say shame on you, you guys.

i can only imagine that a great deal of insecurity is behind these attacks on

the more public and talented members of this list.

and that's all i will say.

goodbye to you, gerry if you are still here.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:27:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      silencing the lambs

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Dear Mr. Gargan,

        I recently back channeled mr. hemmnin requesting that he use

back channel communication to continue his discussion with gerry. i

reiceved a whiney messageback

 

Dear Mr. Gargan,

        I recently back channeled mr. hemmnin requesting that he use

back channel communication to continue his discussion with gerry. His

return communication was negative.

I do not wish to presume to tell you how to discourage the uncivil

behavoir of some the participants but do feel compelled to ask you if

you sent messages to all the corners.

i understand that style differ and my perceptions may be in error or

shaded.

 

oh shit,  marie is right, what is the hell is going on.  is gerry to be

silenced because anytime he posts any information a barrage of attacks

from baby men vomit out.  Gerry's language is charged and he is soo

defensive that it makes my neck hairs crawl,  but his remarks have been

a modest response to the barbs that were slung.

patricia

 

 

patricia

 

 

 i tried to back channel you with this message, but the method i tried

faild. I do not wish to presume to tell you how to discourage the

uncivil behavoir of participants but do feel compelled to ask you if you

sent

similar messages to all the corners, as you seem to have sent to gerry?

I regret bothering you on this but i do request your response.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:57:27 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Updates

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hello Everyone,

 

Once again there have been some major updates to the site.  The main

page has been revamped (a little).  But there have been some major

contributions that are truly great.  The Poetry page has gotten another

contribution and RACE---- got his own page with a graphic.  Come check

it out.

And please, as always, feel free to mail me poems, ramblings, essays,

commentaries, parodys, and your own photographs.  So please showcase

your talents!  Send me anything!

Keith

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:09:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Jack Kerouac....

 

>From OTR:

 

At dawn my bus was zooming across the Arizona desert--Indio, Blythe, Salome

(where she danced); the great dry stretches leading to Mexican mountains in

the south.  Then we swung north to the Arizona mountains, Flagstaff,

clifftowns.  I had a book with em I stole from a Hollywood stall, "Le Grand

Meaulnes" by Alain-Fournier, but I preferred reading the American landscape

as we went along.  Every bump, rise, and stretch in it mystified my

longing.  In inky night we crossed New Mexico; at gray dawn it was Dalhart,

Texas; in the bleak Sunday afternoon we rode through one Oklahoma flat-town

after another; at nightfall it was Kansas.  The bus roared on.  I was going

home in October.  Everyone goes home in October.

 

Diane.

 

--

I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia Plath

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:43:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Spreading the Word...

 

(This is in reply to Bill Gargan's letter about Beat Lit being taught on

college campuses.  I know subscribe to the digest from, so I can't include

his original text)

 

        True, the Beats are gaining more recognition than they

were in the past, but there's still a long way to go (I think most of us

realize this, though).  I wrote my senior seminar (a semester-long research

paper covering some topic in literature) over the Beats.  Here we were,

all Senior English majors, & I think that only half of my class knew what I

was writing about.  This was just this past academic semester.

 

Diane.

 

--

I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia Plath

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:49:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: I will not be gagged

In-Reply-To:  <199710212005.QAA27225@pike.sover.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> hey guys:

> i was beyond disenchanted i was outraged to find in my mail this afternoon a

> continuation of the mudslinging contest of which  mr nicosia has  been the

> target.

> i don't blame him in the least for his response to the continuation of this

> whole fucking mess.

> he kept quiet while others continued to campaign - for what????

> this is the same crap which pushed ron whitehead off this list, and for which

> the list is sorely lacking in enthusiasm and high spirits. i've been

> contemplating whether to go or stay, since returning and dredging through all

> the acrimony.

> i say shame on you, you guys.

> i can only imagine that a great deal of insecurity is behind these attacks on

> the more public and talented members of this list.

> and that's all i will say.

> goodbye to you, gerry if you are still here.

> mc

> 

 

 

YES YES YES!  exactly what Marie said!  We cannot edit this list.  It's

not what any of the Beats would have wanted.  I sent Gerry a email off the

list, thanking him for staying as long as he has so far.  I know i

probably would have gotten fed up with the whole thing a long time a go.

But Gerry's been willing to put up with all the crap, because he's

dedicated to keepping Jack's memory alive for all of us, so that we can

walk in a library someday and read straight from the man himself, rather

than spend lots of money on edited manuscripts.

And God knows none of us want Marie to leave, I can see the light of Ron

Whitehead still glimmering in her posts.  This list has soul.  Do we

really want to lose it?  Do we really want to become like the Moloch

America that the Beats fought so strongly against.  That WE must fight

against.

 

i don't want to see this happen, but i feel it happening.  This list is SO

WONDERFUL and i LOVE it dearly, but it does seem to be sllipping.

 

Let's not let this happen.

 

-matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:06:26 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Kerouac t-shirts, anyone?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

 Paul Maher wrote: Try making Disney t-shirts and selling them outside the gates

>of DisneyLand and see how far you get that day.

 

        Speaking of t-shirts, as Jan Kerouac's literary executor I am

empowered to license the production and marketing of Kerouac t-shirts in the

state of California and any other state where the right of image devolves to

the child (as it does in California).  Reasonable terms available.  90% of

royalties will be paid to the Jan Kerouac Estate, whose revenues are

currently being used by John Lash to try to have me thrown out.

         This is not a joke, by the way.  I still legally have this right,

until such time as Mr. Lash (and Mr. Sampas) succeed in having me removed.

        --contact me thru my private email if you are interested.

GNicosia@earthlink.net

        --best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:11:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      thanks to keith medline

Comments: To: bohemian <Bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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i've been terrorizing keith with changes every second or two to the

stuff i sent to his new pages.  just wanted to publicly say that i

appreciate his efforts.  if you haven't checked out his spot yet please

do to make up for some of the agony i've been putting him through :) :)

And put some poetry or words on the WALL too!!!

 

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:15:41 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Questions for Gerry (estate matters)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Attila Gyenis wrote:

>5) What year did Jan start getting royalties from Jack's books?

 

Answer: 1986, after signing an agreement with the Sampas family, brought

about by three years of threatened legal action against them.  She was

actually due this money starting in 1978.  (And you are right, she does not

and will not have any legal right in the unpublished material of Jack's

estate unless her lawsuit is won in Florida.)

 

>6) Were you at the hospital when she died?

 

Answer: No, I was not notified that Jan was in the hospital dying.  I was

telephoned with the news only after Debra Bower, John Lash's sister, had

ordered the plug pulled on Jan's life support.  Jan was on life support less

than a day, but Ms. Bower had medical power of attorney for Jan, and so was

legally within her rights to order Jan removed from life support.  I wish,

however, that she had called me before taking that action.

 

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:22:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Dont leave Gerry! Gargan should resign!

In-Reply-To:  <199710211903.MAA27634@denmark.it.earthlink.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

It isnt the place of a list moderator to censor the list

inappropriately.  The estate argument is a resonable topic here, as long

as discourse is handled civilly.  If Gargan is trying to force Nicosia

off the list, he should resign a list moderator!

 

Lets have a vote:

 

Should Nicosia leave the list or Gargan resignas moderator?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:18:22 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Barnes & Noble not shelving Kerouac!

MIME-Version: 1.0

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a used book store i recently shopped at in new orleans had their few

kerouac books behind the counter as well.... i don't want to point

fingers or anything, but why are jk's books so expensive? i love to

read him and all, but it is like a real treat when i get anew, i mean

new edition from a new bookstore, book by him. randy

 

> Many of the Barnes and Nobles around NYC are no longer putting the works

> of Jack Kerouac on their shelves.  They still stock a good assortment but

> unlike every other author in the fiction section, at several stores I

> have seen a sign in the K's where Kerouac should be, saying "For Jack

> Kerouac, see Bookkseller"  At at least three of the superstores, the

> policy is now to keep all the Kerouac works either in the stockroom or on

> the storage shelves high above the actual bookshelves.

> 

> Kerouac's books apparently get shoplifted a lot because they are all

> trade paperbacks that are relatively expensive.

> 

> Still this is no way to treat a great author.  They dont keep Mark Twain

> or Ernest Hemingway's works back in the stockroom, with a sign saying for

> these works see a bookkseller.  Someone wanting to browse some Kerouac at

> these stores (Union Square, 6th Ave,. Astor Place among others) cannot

> easily do so.  They must ask the bookseller to go get a copy of a Kerouac

> out of the backroom, and then give it back.

> 

> This is horrible...*arg*

> 

> Richard W.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:29:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dont leave Gerry!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

neither,

is my vote, don't jump to conclusions, even though i did jump to a send

button before i edited.  I have come to respect bill gargan and truely

appreciate what he has done.  I also respect gerry.Bill has not posted

on this subject and i do not wish to listen to more garbage and no meat.

this is a hard one and all or nothing attutude probably won't work for

us.  oddly enough this list has changed my life, it has been interesting

and good for me.  I don't like everyone on the list but so fucking what.

but if posts aren's substantive and have some merit i would like to have

a way to keep the vilest to private posts and not offer them a stage i

am sharing.

p

'

 

Richard Wallner wrote:

> 

> It isnt the place of a list moderator to censor the list

> inappropriately.  The estate argument is a resonable topic here, as long

> as discourse is handled civilly.  If Gargan is trying to force Nicosia

> off the list, he should resign a list moderator!

> 

> Lets have a vote:

> 

> Should Nicosia leave the list or Gargan resignas moderator?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:36:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Gerry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Gerry:

 

When you say last post, I hope you only mean on this subject.  I hope

you will not let this situation drive you off the list.

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:34:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Updates

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Keith Medline wrote:

> 

> Hello Everyone,

> 

> Once again there have been some major updates to the site.  The main

> page has been revamped (a little).  But there have been some major

> contributions that are truly great.  The Poetry page has gotten another

> contribution and RACE---- got his own page with a graphic.  Come check

> it out.

> And please, as always, feel free to mail me poems, ramblings, essays,

> commentaries, parodys, and your own photographs.  So please showcase

> your talents!  Send me anything!

> Keith

> 

> ------------------------------------------------------------

> Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

> http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

> ------------------------------------------------------------

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

 

Keith, it is fun watching the evolution of your page. I failed to find

the graphic for race's page.  Hey david can i send him the picture of

you with your hat, when you were at williams' house?

keith  I thank you for the parody page, was steaming here, went there,

better now.

p

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:58:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Dont leave Gerry! Gargan should resign!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Richard:

 

I am not sure that this is the appropriate question.  The question is

can we have a list where Gerry and other poets are not subject to biased

attacks that drive them off the list.  The identity of the detractors

has been relatively consistent.  How do we have civilized discussion of

the issues is the question?  Gerry and others should not be subject to

such continued onslaughts, or else the ones who are trying to oust him

will be the winners and we will all be losers.

 

 

Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> It isnt the place of a list moderator to censor the list

> inappropriately.  The estate argument is a resonable topic here, as

> long

> as discourse is handled civilly.  If Gargan is trying to force Nicosia

> 

> off the list, he should resign a list moderator!

> 

> Lets have a vote:

> 

> Should Nicosia leave the list or Gargan resignas moderator?

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:04:33 -0400

Reply-To:     Greg Elwell <elwellg@voicenet.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Barnes & Noble not shelving Kerouac!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hey!  This sounds like communism.  Pretty soon we're going to have to wait

in line to get any books!

 

Greg Elwell

-----Original Message-----

From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 10:34 AM

Subject: Barnes & Noble not shelving Kerouac!

 

 

>Many of the Barnes and Nobles around NYC are no longer putting the works

>of Jack Kerouac on their shelves.  They still stock a good assortment but

>unlike every other author in the fiction section, at several stores I

>have seen a sign in the K's where Kerouac should be, saying "For Jack

>Kerouac, see Bookkseller"  At at least three of the superstores, the

>policy is now to keep all the Kerouac works either in the stockroom or on

>the storage shelves high above the actual bookshelves.

> 

>Kerouac's books apparently get shoplifted a lot because they are all

>trade paperbacks that are relatively expensive.

> 

>Still this is no way to treat a great author.  They dont keep Mark Twain

>or Ernest Hemingway's works back in the stockroom, with a sign saying for

>these works see a bookkseller.  Someone wanting to browse some Kerouac at

>these stores (Union Square, 6th Ave,. Astor Place among others) cannot

>easily do so.  They must ask the bookseller to go get a copy of a Kerouac

>out of the backroom, and then give it back.

> 

>This is horrible...*arg*

> 

>Richard W.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:30:01 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Essay Call

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hello,

 

    I am looking for Essays on the following topics for my page.  if you

would be willing to contribute them or have a copy of something similar

send it in, by all means.

 

1) Women of the Beat Movement

2) Modern repurcussions of the Beat Movement

3) Fond memorys of Kerouac with  exerpts from his work

4) Essay on the Modern Beat Development

5) A definition of "Beat" with a modern perspective

 

As always I am still asking for any contributions or Suggestions.

Keith

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:30:08 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Entropy Operator <rush2@INSTANTLINUX.COM>

Subject:      Re: Barnes & Noble not shelving Kerouac!

Comments: To: randyr@southeast.net

In-Reply-To:  <199710212212.SAA12443@mailhub.southeast.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> a used book store i recently shopped at in new orleans had their few

> kerouac books behind the counter as well.... i don't want to point

> fingers or anything, but why are jk's books so expensive? i love to

> read him and all, but it is like a real treat when i get anew, i mean

> new edition from a new bookstore, book by him. randy

 

I just picke up a new copy of subterraneans, dharma bums, desolation

angles and on the road for $30.. I think that's reasonable for books ($30

toal

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:33:50 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Dont leave Gerry! Gargan should resign!

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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uh, richard, perhaps you should chill out a bit.

mc

 

Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> It isnt the place of a list moderator to censor the list

> inappropriately.  The estate argument is a resonable topic here, as long

> as discourse is handled civilly.  If Gargan is trying to force Nicosia

> off the list, he should resign a list moderator!

> 

> Lets have a vote:

> 

> Should Nicosia leave the list or Gargan resignas moderator?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:43:12 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Faction

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Dear BEAT-L subscribers,

 

     What is taking place is a dangerous phenomenon called majority

faction.  It is an ugly beast that can turn a group into a relic.  James

Madison warned people of this in the Federalist Paper #10.  He says that

it can kill a nation, be careful or it will kill us.

     This discussion forum is a valuable tool for communication.  I know

that my knowledge and love has increased through the support and

interesting times I have seen on BEAT-L.

     Think about how good it feels when you efforts and opinions are

rewarded with praise.  By attacking each other you not only are acting

with a large degree of hubris, but also you rip the artistic coheasion

of the group apart.

     Today on the anniversary of the death of Jack Kerouac who has

inspired so many of you, guided so many of you, and given so many of you

a common cause you can do nothing but brow bash each other?  To me this

is more a dissappointment than anything else.

     Grudges are never a good thing.  What took plae is unfortunate.

This is true.  Both camps cannot understand the others claims because

both sides fail to realize one thing.

     What is done, is done.  Accusations, judgements, and other

character asassinations are futile in solving anything.  It is

impossible now to salvage both sides claims.  This is a shame indeed.

However, there is still room for both camps.  Please unite, there is

nothing less productive than a long battle.   Not only are casualtys

measured in personal loss, but also in the loss of a much greater thing.

The BEAT-L listserv.

     Please, if you care about everyone else, stop this arguing.  It is

making others feel uncomfortable.  If the battle must drag on, please

continue it OUTSIDE this group.

     Thank you for hearing my comments on this subject.  I hope there

can be a suitable solution to this problem that doesn't include the

destruction of BEAT-L.

 

Sincerely,

Keith

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:50:35 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      The Dirty Goat

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Dear Beat-L readers:                     Oct 21, 1997

 

        No, this post is not about any of my illustrious opponents on the

Beat-List.

        I would like to announce the recent publication of my essay "The Old

Hobo Saint of Camel Trails" in ISSUE 8 of the international literary

magazine, THE DIRTY GOAT, which is published by Host Publications in Austin

Texas.  This 6000-word essay is the text of a talk I gave on Jack Kerouac's

spirituality at Middlesex Community College in Lowell, Massachusetts, on

September 24, 1994.  In the essay, I examine the various theories of

Kerouac's spirituality, was he a Catholic? a Buddhist? etc. and come up with

my own unique theory.  Must reading for those interested in Kerouac's

spiritual dimension.

        Copies of THE DIRTY GOAT #8 have been distributed to bookstores

across the country.  But you can also order one directly from Host

Publications at 2712 Wooldridge, Austin, TX 78703.  Cost is ten dollars plus

two bucks postage.

        P.S.  To Wallner and others interested in my finances, I don't make

any royalties on this magazine whatsoever.  In fact, I was not paid for the

essay, I donated it to the magazine, and was given one contributor's copy free.

        P.P.S.  The publisher of THE DIRTY GOAT is Joe Bratcher III, who is

himself a Burroughs scholar of some renown.  I suggested to Joe that he

might want to get on the Beat List to talk about Burroughs, etc., and

hopefully his appearance here is imminent.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:47:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Estate $$$$

MIME-Version: 1.0

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BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:

>I would think that it was pretty clear that if Gerry Nicosia wins the

>estate battle, he stands to gain all the $$$ that go with it. I'd like

>to see him make a clear, unequivocal statement for the record what HE

>intends to do with that money. Never mind whether anyone deserves it, or

>how hard he's worked or all the abuse he feels he has put up with. What

>is he going to do with the money?

 

     it doesn't matter.  the ten percent that belongs to Gerry is his

and well deserved, and the wish of Jack Kerouac.  it's really not fair

to harp on him for making money. now the jan estate money, his plans

for that would be interesting to know, but what he does with his share

is absolutely none of our business, and i suggest we stop imposing

unreal idealisms on him, idealisms we'd not likely successfully place

on ourselves.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:10:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate debate)

In-Reply-To:  <19971021001128.10060.qmail@hotmail.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

i'm in omaha, ne, the heart of america, and there is a wonderful class

entitled: "English 3000: Beats and Hippies" at the University of Nebraska

in Omaha. sure, it's not all that common, but the classes are out there

now and gaining strength for the future.

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE

"Someone must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having

done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial

 

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Keith Medline wrote:

 

> This may be true in an urban setting, but what about the rest of us.

> Must we travel to cities to find an education?  Conservative America is

> repressing the Beats.  In Ann Arbor (UofM) the beat literature is alive.

> Yet in the same state at a rival college MSU the beats only live in a

> few people.  One being Dr. Rod Phillips who turned me on to their works.

> it really opened my eyes, because I considered my liberal arts education

> to be quite good.  The beats however were not even mentioned as a force

> in American Society formation.

> 

> 

> >The Beats are being taught now, I'm happy to say, in colleges and high

> schools

> >all around the country.  Several people on this list have taught and/or

> taken c

> >ourses on the list.  I'll let them respond for themselves.  There are

> courses t

> >hat have been taught in several units of the City University of New

> York: Brook

> >lyn College, Queens College, Hunter College, and the Graduate Center.

> There's

> >even a beat course at Midwood High School in Brooklyn.   The list of

> courses is

> > growing.

> >

> 

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:05:43 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: I will not be gagged

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> You cannot gag me from telling my side of the story, and let lies

> like this run rampant.

 

Gerry,

 

As much as I have tried to ignore the estate battle this time around,

after this post I cannot ignore it anymore. The truth is that Bill Gargan

has done an excellent job as list moderator.  His job should be to allow

the free flow of ideas and facts and not have to referee a boxing match.

He would never ask you to take it off the list if you stuck to the facts

of the court case or sincerely only wanted to share your knowledge of

Jack and Jan Kerouac.  The truth is you resort to the exact same tactics

you accuse others of.  Look at the subject headers of your own posts,

taken from the last week:  Paul Maher of the Libel Quarterly, What Phil

Chaput Really Said about the Sampases, Mr. Maher has gone off the deep

end, Has Mr. Sampas Been Making Illegal Xeroxes, Sampas Calls on Gyenis

for Reinforcements, Who Wants to Fight?  This is not intelligent

discussion of the issues at hand by any stretch of the imagination.  And

until you cease from such vehement attacks of your own, how can you

possible expect anyone to give your position the serious consideration it

deserves.  Bill is not censoring ideas or discussion, he is simply asking

you and all of us to discuss things without abusive barrages, and if you

can't do that, then yes, you should be asked to leave the list.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:40:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

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>At least one of the principles--IMHO--wants that too.

 

What is IMHO?

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:28:55 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sarah Sage <yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      Re: I will not be gagged

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.94.971021164141.42956A-100000@spnode04.tcs.tulane.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

The only thing I have to voice is my agreement with this message

 

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Matthew S Sackmann wrote:

 

> On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> > hey guys:

> > i was beyond disenchanted i was outraged to find in my mail this afternoon a

> > continuation of the mudslinging contest of which  mr nicosia has  been the

> > target.

> > i don't blame him in the least for his response to the continuation of this

> > whole fucking mess.

> > he kept quiet while others continued to campaign - for what????

> > this is the same crap which pushed ron whitehead off this list, and for

 which

> > the list is sorely lacking in enthusiasm and high spirits. i've been

> > contemplating whether to go or stay, since returning and dredging through

 all

> > the acrimony.

> > i say shame on you, you guys.

> > i can only imagine that a great deal of insecurity is behind these attacks

 on

> > the more public and talented members of this list.

> > and that's all i will say.

> > goodbye to you, gerry if you are still here.

> > mc

> >

> 

> 

> YES YES YES!  exactly what Marie said!  We cannot edit this list.  It's

> not what any of the Beats would have wanted.  I sent Gerry a email off the

> list, thanking him for staying as long as he has so far.  I know i

> probably would have gotten fed up with the whole thing a long time a go.

> But Gerry's been willing to put up with all the crap, because he's

> dedicated to keepping Jack's memory alive for all of us, so that we can

> walk in a library someday and read straight from the man himself, rather

> than spend lots of money on edited manuscripts.

> And God knows none of us want Marie to leave, I can see the light of Ron

> Whitehead still glimmering in her posts.  This list has soul.  Do we

> really want to lose it?  Do we really want to become like the Moloch

> America that the Beats fought so strongly against.  That WE must fight

> against.

> 

> i don't want to see this happen, but i feel it happening.  This list is SO

> WONDERFUL and i LOVE it dearly, but it does seem to be sllipping.

> 

> Let's not let this happen.

> 

> -matt

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:12:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Don't leave Gerry!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

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I also vote to keep the BEAT-L open to *everyone* with something relevant

to say...regardless of if I agree with them or not.  If you don't like the

current thread (whatever the subject), what's wrong with your delete key?

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:43:37 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sarah Sage <yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      Re: Dont leave Gerry! Gargan should resign!

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971021181821.18771A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> It isnt the place of a list moderator to censor the list

> inappropriately.  The estate argument is a resonable topic here, as long

> as discourse is handled civilly.  If Gargan is trying to force Nicosia

> off the list, he should resign a list moderator!

> 

> Lets have a vote:

> 

> Should Nicosia leave the list or Gargan resignas moderator?

> 

  Nicosia should STAY! And I don't know if this would work, but I think

instead of having one person be the moderator, the whole list should

decide, and if we need to vote about something, we vote. If everyone

decides it doesn't work, it does'nt work and we go back to one

moderator-but it can't hurt to try.

 

Sarah

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:44:19 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: I will not be gagged

 

but then in that case, such a request should extend to others who participated

in the uncivil discourse.  i too think Bill has done a good job since i've

been on the list; however, i hardly call it moderation to ask only one member

of a group that has been uncivil, to leave.

 

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Diane Carter

Sent:   Tuesday, October 21, 1997 9:05 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: I will not be gagged

 

> Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> You cannot gag me from telling my side of the story, and let lies

> like this run rampant.

 

Gerry,

 

As much as I have tried to ignore the estate battle this time around,

after this post I cannot ignore it anymore. The truth is that Bill Gargan

has done an excellent job as list moderator.  His job should be to allow

the free flow of ideas and facts and not have to referee a boxing match.

He would never ask you to take it off the list if you stuck to the facts

of the court case or sincerely only wanted to share your knowledge of

Jack and Jan Kerouac.  The truth is you resort to the exact same tactics

you accuse others of.  Look at the subject headers of your own posts,

taken from the last week:  Paul Maher of the Libel Quarterly, What Phil

Chaput Really Said about the Sampases, Mr. Maher has gone off the deep

end, Has Mr. Sampas Been Making Illegal Xeroxes, Sampas Calls on Gyenis

for Reinforcements, Who Wants to Fight?  This is not intelligent

discussion of the issues at hand by any stretch of the imagination.  And

until you cease from such vehement attacks of your own, how can you

possible expect anyone to give your position the serious consideration it

deserves.  Bill is not censoring ideas or discussion, he is simply asking

you and all of us to discuss things without abusive barrages, and if you

can't do that, then yes, you should be asked to leave the list.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:02:59 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sarah Sage <yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

In-Reply-To:  <199710220107.UAA08798@mail.execpc.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:

 

> >At least one of the principles--IMHO--wants that too.

> 

> What is IMHO?

> 

> Jym

> 

Jym, I'm not posative, but I think this means "In My Humble Opinion"

 

Sarah

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:08:18 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dont leave Gerry! Gargan should resign!

 

Sarah - this is Bill's list.  he tries to just let it roll on it's own; this

situation has caused problems and he has a right to make decisions in order to

remedy the problems.  my only concern is that, if indeed Gerry was the only

person asked to leave, it wasn't fair.  i don't believe that he initiated

anything inflammatory; i do believe he let himself react in a manner that was

as uncivil as those with whom he was fighting.  i dearly hope and pray Gerry

doesn't leave the list.  but if he is ASKED to leave, and the others aren't,

then it is unfair.

 

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Sarah Sage

Sent:   Tuesday, October 21, 1997 6:43 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Dont leave Gerry! Gargan should resign!

 

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> It isnt the place of a list moderator to censor the list

> inappropriately.  The estate argument is a resonable topic here, as long

> as discourse is handled civilly.  If Gargan is trying to force Nicosia

> off the list, he should resign a list moderator!

> 

> Lets have a vote:

> 

> Should Nicosia leave the list or Gargan resignas moderator?

> 

  Nicosia should STAY! And I don't know if this would work, but I think

instead of having one person be the moderator, the whole list should

decide, and if we need to vote about something, we vote. If everyone

decides it doesn't work, it does'nt work and we go back to one

moderator-but it can't hurt to try.

 

Sarah

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:14:43 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      being absent

MIME-Version: 1.0

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--

I too just returned from a long and hard and emotional journey ranging

from denver to chicaGO and many worlds in between, and all i have to say

about marie's comment is, "I agree."

cw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:20:39 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      marie's howl w/ whine chaser

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Subject:

>         howl with a whine chaser

>   Date:

>         Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:43:04 +0000

>   From:

>         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

> 

> 

> on a lighter note, i just returned via bus to and from music and spoken

> word event, and couldn't help myself i had to write this..

> 

> howl with a whine chaser:

>    i saw the best part of my mind destroyed by sleep deprivation,

>    starving

>    hysterical naked

>    dragging myself through the greyhound stations looking for my

>    angry

>    luggage

>    angelheaded hipsterette burning for the ancient heavenly.....

 

 

and so on and so forth .  Marie, my dear, i believe you have just hit

the nail on the head as far as bus travel goes.  in '92 i took a

greyhound out to santa barbara and it was the most horrific yet

wonderful experience of my sad sad life.  you've got a way with words,

babe.  don't let that go...

cw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:35:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Open message to Bill--Long Post

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bill:

 

Apparantly I missed your message, if it was on the list, asking Gerry to

leave the list.  If you have sent him such a message, I hope you will

reconsider.  I feel that Gerry should not be asked to leave the list.  I

know of no other person on this list that had to suffer the slings and

arrows thrown at him.  (I was not on the list when the poet that MC

refers to was run off the list.)  If that is your position, I hope that

you will reconsider and allow Gerry to stay.

 

As I recall this thread was begun by Phil Chaput posting a "quote" from

John Sampas.  As I recall, Phil did not follow up with many posts, but I

immediately stated my desire that the thread not be reignited.  In fact,

I tend to agree with James that it should be left off list.  It then was

fueled by Maher and then Attilla and a few others.  Gerry responded to

them and it seems that he ought to be able to defend his honor.  I

personally wish that he would let some of it go, as it does not bear a

real response.  On ther other hand, FACTS often are left in people's

minds by simple repetition.  So, while I wish it were not deemed

necessary by Gerry, I would like to see it die.

 

But, on the other hand, I have learned some new facts, and we all have

seen a portion of the letter that has been discussed as well. Further,

Gerry has shared with us his personal involvement with the estate

matters involving Jan.  I for one am very glad to learn that Lash and

Sampas have an "agreeement."  And while Sampas has his defenders on the

list, I have yet to see him on the list and his dealings are not made

known to us.  So, we have had a unique opportunity to learn what is

going on inside one of the most significant court cases being litigated

in this Country today.  We are indeed blessed by this development.  And

in a very odd way, have Mr. Maher to thank for  that.  So, while I do

agree with James, I also am glad to have learned some important facts.

 

There is another issue that has not been discussed here and has nothing

to do with the discussion that has raised our passions.  However, it is

one of great importance to the legal world and to the literary world.  I

hope Gerry can comment on this if he is still on the list.  If I am

correct, the probate court has ruled that Lash can discharge Nicosia as

literary executor.  There is a reason that Gerry and others are

appointed as literary executors and it is to keep control of these

issues from the executor.  Now we know that Lash and Sampas have a deal,

but they haven't told us what it is.  But, we do know that if this

precedent is upheld, that there is no real safety in appointing a

literary executor to keep control from the executor.  So, whether you

like Gerry or not, if you want the intergrity of wills to be upheld and

to keep executors to be kept from interfering in literary matters, you

best hope that Gerry wins this case.  At the current time, the case in

Florida is stayed awaiting the result of this case.  Even if Gerry wins

in NM and Lash can not fire him, there is no guarantee that he will win

in FL.  It is very difficult to prove a forgery and to upset a will.

So, there is no real surety that Gerry winning will change anything with

regard to the administration of Jack's notebooks, papers etc.  BUT, we

are guraranteed bad precedent that is not good for the literary world if

Gerry loses in NM.

 

Personally, I doubt that we will never know the whole story unless Gerry

writes a book about it.    I would like to see him win in NM and then

see if he can get some discovery, like the deal between Lash and Sampas,

in FL.  But I do not believe that we will ever hear the facts from Lash

and Sampas if Lash wins in NM.

 

Well, that is a lot for my 44th birthday.  But, I feel very strongly

that is not fair to ask Gerry to leave the list.  I do feel that the

personal attacks on Gerry, or any list member should be caused to

cease.   I also wish Gerry would not respond to the nonsense, but I can

only wish.

 

Thanks.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:40:59 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      let's be realistic here, bob

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> From:

>         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

> 

> 

> marie-

> are you trying to start an argument here or what? this is no place for

> that kind of nonsense. we're a beat discussion group, focused on the

> discussion of beat literature, and surely none of us would ever use this

> as a public forum to debate personal issues. :)

> 

> 

> 

Bob, buddy.  did it ever occur to you that some of us use this list to

get to know one another, before we start discussing the heavy beat

issues?  Personally, that is why i signed up, is to get to know the

people out there who enjoy reading the same type of books as I.  If

everyone out there disagrees with me, then so be it, I will gladly sign

off the list.  I like discussing issues as much as the next person, but

i kinda like to know who the heck it is i'm speaking to.  Nothing

personal, bob, but I've lived my entire life trying to get over how some

collegiate and scholarly types are just poseurs trying to come off much

smarter than the average small town white chick.

sincerely yours

cathy wilkie

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:51:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: 10/21/69 and memories of Jack

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi everyone,

 

        I had to put this alert out on the list. If you've filcked your

finger too quickly in estate battle induced frenzy you may have missed the

poem belw that Adrien Begrand posted today. It's really fine and bears lots

of re-reading...do yourself a favor. This goes right in with my favorite

poetry posts of the past from John Mitchell ["Asshole"], Marie Countryman

["pome 'bout poets"], Ron Whitehead, Patricia Elliot ["Shooting with the men

1985"], and David Rhaesa...and Joe Grant's hoboing stories.

 

                Antoine

 

 

        *******************

 

        10/21/69

 

two a.m.

desolate millsounds

thundering resounding machinery

        I think of Duluoz

 

under orion's belt

illuminated plume of steam

towering over the town

        I think of Duluoz

 

cool crisp October air

light snowfall

my own Desolation

        I think of Duluoz

 

100 miles of open highway going

      north

west         east

      south

        I think of Duluoz

 

'Round Midnight

Ornithology

Salt Peanuts!

        I think of Duluoz

 

All Life Is Suffering

walking on water wasn't built in a day

you can't fall off a mountain!

        I think of Duluoz

 

Redbrick

Lowell

Shadowyvisions of Dr. Sax

        I think of Duluoz

 

Irwin on the subway

Bull in Louisiana

Dean naked in the doorway

        I think of Duluoz

 

Chicago-jazz & tea high

Denver-holy visions

San Francisco-boddhisatvas, midnight angels

        I think of Duluoz

 

Mexican fellaheen

Mexican tea

Mexican whores

        I think of Duluoz

 

Southern Pacific

Midnight Ghost

the St. Teresa Bum

        I think of Duluoz

 

Gallery Six

Wail

Go!

        I think of Duluoz

 

Desolation peak

Hozomeen looming

ennui & haikus

        I think of Duluoz

 

King of the beatniks

generation spokesperson

beaten

        I think of Duluoz

 

Big Sur

delerium

Sea

        I think of Duluoz

 

Lowell

Stella

Memere's apronstrings

        I think of Duluoz

 

has-been

drunk

lousy father & husband

        I think of Duluoz

 

2:30 a.m.

sounds of Monk &

sounds of the mill

        I think of Duluoz

                   Paradise

                   Smith

 

Kerouac

 

Is all well?

Will all be well?

 

Just keep guarding us,

                      Jacky, m'boy

 

 

--Adrien Begrand

10/21/97

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:47:55 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Date: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 6:10 PM

Subject: Re: Estate Battle, John Hasbrouck

 

 

>>At least one of the principles--IMHO--wants that too.

> 

>What is IMHO?

> 

>Jym

>.-

 

In My Humble Opinion

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:17:27 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      102 hits

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Well everyone,

 

I have surpassed the 100 hit mark.  However, I still need a few things.

I have a page called Writings On The Wall which basically posts little

eptiaphs, 8 line or less poems, quotes, or short anecdotes.

If you are interested in contributing to this feature of my site, just

e-mail me your contribution with the subject as WALL.

 

Thanks a 100,

Keith

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:48:21 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "MYLES A. HASELHORST" <hase8846@BLUE.UNCO.EDU>

Subject:      Words from Kerouac himself:

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9710211924.A13770-0100000@vifa1>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

This is from the book HEAVEN & Other Poems:

 

        I am only a jolly storyteller and have nothing to do with politics

or schemes and my only plan is the old Chinese Way of the Tao: "avoid the

authorities." I am a bibulous old jolly drunk and I love everybody.

 

                                Jack Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:58:05 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bill Gargan

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Richard,

 

Bill Gargan is not the moderator.  Bill is the list owner.  He has done

a marvelous job with this list.  He has repeatedly requested that this

discussion cease for awhile.  That strikes many of us as a reasonable

request.

 

If you don't like Bill's list, start another.  You can invite Gerry and

those who would like to flog this same horse day after day for years

could join.  Estate-L would make a nice tag line.

 

j. Stauffer

 

Richard Wallner wrote:

> 

> It isnt the place of a list moderator to censor the list

> inappropriately.  The estate argument is a resonable topic here, as long

> as discourse is handled civilly.  If Gargan is trying to force Nicosia

> off the list, he should resign a list moderator!

> 

> Lets have a vote:

> 

> Should Nicosia leave the list or Gargan resignas moderator?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:36:28 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: let's be realistic here, bob

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> 

> > From:

> >         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

> >

> >

> > marie-

> > are you trying to start an argument here or what? this is no place

> > for

> > that kind of nonsense. we're a beat discussion group, focused on the

> > discussion of beat literature, and surely none of us would ever use

> > this

> > as a public forum to debate personal issues. :)

> >

> >

> >

> Bob, buddy.  did it ever occur to you that some of us use this list to

> get to know one another, before we start discussing the heavy beat

> issues?  Personally, that is why i signed up, is to get to know the

> people out there who enjoy reading the same type of books as I.  If

> everyone out there disagrees with me, then so be it, I will gladly sign

> off the list.  I like discussing issues as much as the next person, but

> i kinda like to know who the heck it is i'm speaking to.  Nothing

> personal, bob, but I've lived my entire life trying to get over how

> some

> collegiate and scholarly types are just poseurs trying to come off much

> smarter than the average small town white chick.

> sincerely yours

> cathy wilkie

 

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Bob was making a joke to Marie?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:54:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      bob's rebuttal...

 

yes cathie- the thought of using the list to discuss beat issues has

crossed my mind once or twice.  i'm surpised it's not called beat-l or

something crazy like that.

no need to take offense cathie,or anyone else i may have offended. just

trying to make light of a situation that some of us aren't involved in.

(not downplaying the importance- this issue means a helluva lot to many

people- anyone concerned with kerouac, in fact)

and thats all i gotta say bout that.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:53:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Estate-L

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Bill Gargan is not the moderator.  Bill is the list owner.  He has done

>a marvelous job with this list.  He has repeatedly requested that this

>discussion cease for awhile.  That strikes many of us as a reasonable

>request.

> 

>If you don't like Bill's list, start another.  You can invite Gerry and

>those who would like to flog this same horse day after day for years

>could join.  Estate-L would make a nice tag line.

> 

>j. Stauffer

 

James,        Oct 21, 1997

        In these last few waning hours of Jack Day you make me laugh, thanks.

        Yes, I'm ready to move on to Estate-L.  The resistance is too high

on this particular wire, the heat to light ratio is far exceeding the safety

standards for aging biographers and literary executors.  Though I'm glad to

have gotten some information out, anyway, as Bentz Kirby says.  A number of

people told me privately that their eyes were opened by what I posted.

That's all I ask.

        I was a teacher for enough years to know that good teachers don't

win popularity contests.

        To all my supporters, yes, I'm still on the list.  I've assured Mr.

Gargan I'm cooling it.  I'll wait till the next big day in court to post

further news.  Though you can be sure, if I lose, my esteemed adversaries

will get it posted so fast you'll know long before I get home from New Mexico.

        "If you're not pissing people off, you must be doing something

wrong," Tim Leary once told me.  So maybe by Tim's standards I am doing

something right.  God rest his soul too, tonight.

        Adios, for a while.  I'm still available for questions.  But please,

not how much money I'm making!  (It's never enough at the end of the month,

suffice it to say.)

        --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:03:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Words from Kerouac himself:

 

i was thinking the same thing... i think the line from that famous speech

jack gave about the beat generation was something along those lines-

"live your life out, nah, love your life out"

we are only shaming him with these battles...

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:27:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Gerry Nicosia and others

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

hey,

 

since i switched to the digest format i get to see all the blood in one

swoooooosh!  i have to say that it is something like attending a rooster

fight (i'm guessing actually having never been to a rooster fight

<grin>).

 

i finished your biography since the last time you were on the list and

think that it is basically "INCREDIBLE".

 

i hope that your vietnam veterans book is coming along at a perfect

pace.

 

i wish that there were things that the people on the Beat-L could do to

help you get your Memory Babe archives transferred - that seems a shame.

 

i definitely wish that you had time to interact on other subjects on the

List -- given the catalogue of information in your biography of JK, it

seems like you probably have a few stories that would be lovely to hear.

<smile>

 

it sounds as though your case in New Mexico is coming along very well.

I haven't heard much in the way of reasons why you shouldn't win that

case.  i'd actually love to read the appellate briefs on it.

 

i wonder when the ruling on the signature in Florida will eventually

come about.  (i wonder if hell might freeze over first!!! <laughing at

the speedy process of all my friends who are lawyers>

 

i doubt that i agree with you on the question of property rights

disposal.  i don't have any trouble with disagreeing with people on

things sometimes.

 

i wish that we all didn't take ourselves so seriously.

 

sincerely,

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:40:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Jo Grant

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i think that what i've read in the digests has been re-hash (mostly its

been about the "right" to re-hash which was even more dull).

 

the MAIN new information is the factual points in Gerry N.'s original

post followed by thoughts which might have better been ignored.

 

as for the save the memory babe archive - i'm not able to provide money

-- but it was my understanding that Gerry's intention as of last Spring

was the money should go to Paul not Gerry's issues.  Has this changed?

Did i misunderstand that?  Or are you just saying "Let's raise money

regardless of what Gerry says" (which might be kool, Gerry seems to

sometimes put others first)?

 

wondering,

 

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:04:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Jon B. Pearlstone" <THYE@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

 

Send me a sample of the Kerouac Quarterly as well--thanks

 

Jon Pearlstone

P.O. Box 2309

San Anselmo, CA  94960

 

Thanks

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:58:18 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Stukeeper2@AOL.COM

Subject:      .

 

suscribe Erin Stuart

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:59:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Jon B. Pearlstone" <THYE@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Gerry Nicosia and others

 

Someone please review the procedure for Digest Format--

 

I deleted it in the marathon deleting sessions I have been enduring as the

estate battle rages on--not that I'm against discussing it.....oops I mean,

not that I'm for discussing it....hell, I am too confused to know what I mean

anymore.

 

Thanks for your help

 

Jon Pearlstone

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:17:55 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: 10/21/69 and memories of Jack

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

hey there antoine, me friend! i  read and have already printed out a copy of

adrien's fine and moving poem. bless yr heart to have us take a moment and

think about jack and writing an, well, all the wonderful things this list is

for.

mc

 

Antoine Maloney wrote:

 

> Hi everyone,

> 

>         I had to put this alert out on the list. If you've filcked your

> finger too quickly in estate battle induced frenzy you may have missed the

> poem belw that Adrien Begrand posted today. It's really fine and bears lots

> of re-reading...do yourself a favor. This goes right in with my favorite

> poetry posts of the past from John Mitchell ["Asshole"], Marie Countryman

> ["pome 'bout poets"], Ron Whitehead, Patricia Elliot ["Shooting with the men

> 1985"], and David Rhaesa...and Joe Grant's hoboing stories.

> 

>                 Antoine

> 

>         *******************

> 

>         10/21/69

> 

> two a.m.

> desolate millsounds

> thundering resounding machinery

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> under orion's belt

> illuminated plume of steam

> towering over the town

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> cool crisp October air

> light snowfall

> my own Desolation

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> 100 miles of open highway going

>       north

> west         east

>       south

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> 'Round Midnight

> Ornithology

> Salt Peanuts!

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> All Life Is Suffering

> walking on water wasn't built in a day

> you can't fall off a mountain!

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> Redbrick

> Lowell

> Shadowyvisions of Dr. Sax

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> Irwin on the subway

> Bull in Louisiana

> Dean naked in the doorway

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> Chicago-jazz & tea high

> Denver-holy visions

> San Francisco-boddhisatvas, midnight angels

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> Mexican fellaheen

> Mexican tea

> Mexican whores

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> Southern Pacific

> Midnight Ghost

> the St. Teresa Bum

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> Gallery Six

> Wail

> Go!

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> Desolation peak

> Hozomeen looming

> ennui & haikus

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> King of the beatniks

> generation spokesperson

> beaten

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> Big Sur

> delerium

> Sea

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> Lowell

> Stella

> Memere's apronstrings

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> has-been

> drunk

> lousy father & husband

>         I think of Duluoz

> 

> 2:30 a.m.

> sounds of Monk &

> sounds of the mill

>         I think of Duluoz

>                    Paradise

>                    Smith

> 

> Kerouac

> 

> Is all well?

> Will all be well?

> 

> Just keep guarding us,

>                       Jacky, m'boy

> 

> --Adrien Begrand

> 10/21/97

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:32:54 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      mr stauffer on mr gargan

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

....what he said, in spades!

mc

 

James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Richard,

> 

> Bill Gargan is not the moderator.  Bill is the list owner.  He has

> done

> a marvelous job with this list.  He has repeatedly requested that this

> 

> discussion cease for awhile.  That strikes many of us as a reasonable

> request.

> 

> If you don't like Bill's list, start another.  You can invite Gerry

> and

> those who would like to flog this same horse day after day for years

> could join.  Estate-L would make a nice tag line.

> 

> j. Stauffer

> 

> Richard Wallner wrote:

> >

> > It isnt the place of a list moderator to censor the list

> > inappropriately.  The estate argument is a resonable topic here, as

> long

> > as discourse is handled civilly.  If Gargan is trying to force

> Nicosia

> > off the list, he should resign a list moderator!

> >

> > Lets have a vote:

> >

> > Should Nicosia leave the list or Gargan resignas moderator?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:38:14 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Gerry Nicosia and others

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

amen, brother dave.

mc

 

> i wish that we all didn't take ourselves so seriously.

> 

> sincerely,

> david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:27:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dana Lee Kober <dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Don't leave Gerry!

In-Reply-To:  <199710220138.UAA04852@mail.execpc.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:

 

> I also vote to keep the BEAT-L open to *everyone* with something relevant

 

 

Precisely Jym....something *relevant*.  Name-calling is not relevant.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:38:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Christa St. Peter" <astrid@NORSHORE.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Please send a sample copy of The Kerouac Quarterly.

 

Christa St. Peter

1519 5th Avenue E

International Falls, MN 56649

 

Thank you!

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:47:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: William Burroughs and Alvaro Lapa

Comments: To: dcaridade <dcaridade@geocities.com>

In-Reply-To:  <199710191614.JAA03919@geocities.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, dcaridade wrote:

 

> Hi, I'm kinda new in this list (thanks for spreading the word Duarte) and

> I'd like to know if someone out there knows anything about a joint

> exhibition between William Burroughs and portuguese artist Alvaro Lapa.

> 

> thanks,

> 

> daniel caridade

> dcaridade@geocities.com

 

The best place to check for this info is "Ports of Entry: William S.

Burroughs and the Arts". It has a list of all Burroughs exhibits up to

1996. The book should be available in a decent art gallery book store, or

University library, and I'm sure Jeffrey at waterrow@aol.com has copies

available for purchase.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:09:54 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthias_Schneider <magrobi@MAIL.ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>

Subject:      =?iso-8859-1?Q?I=B4d?= like to quit the list.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Hi, this is my second try. Could you take me of the list, please.

 

Thanks,

 

Matthias Schneider (Berlin, Germany)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:19:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Kerouac's letters being censored?

Comments: To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199710220453.VAA13132@iceland.it.earthlink.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I am especially concerned by one Nicosia allegation.  That Ann Charters

says John Sampas has been censoring Kerouac's letters from the published

and to be published collections, ordering dis-included letters that he

(Sampas) found distateful.  Including sexually explicit letters Jack

wrote to his old girlfriends, and/or where he was too explicit about his

drug use or bisexuality or something.  Presumably, since Sampas will not

allow Jacks last letter (where he states his estate desires), he has also

disincluded any letters from volume 2 where Kerouac attacks any members

of the Sampas family or makes other references to how his estate should

be handled.

 

If all this is true, it is a crime against history, John Sampas trying to

sugarcoat Jack Kerouac and present him as somehow purer or more innocent

than he was.  We deserve to see the real Jack Kerouac, warts and all, and

no letter should be disincluded from the collections unless there are

legal reasons or they have no merit at all.

 

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:17:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Hello !

Comments: To: Murat Balkose <balkose@egenet.com.tr>

In-Reply-To:  <3435604D.3745@egenet.com.tr>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Murat Balkose wrote:

 

> Hello,

> 

>  As i just started to subscribe BEAT-L, and i wonder the

> multinationality of this list.

>  I subscribed it before but i did't read any letters from Turkey.Anyone

> speaking Turkish  please contact with me.

> 

> i'd introduce myself. i am student and interested reading beat

> literature.i am not an intellectual and don't really read too much

> books.

> 

>  Anyone wondering the last book published in Turkish as a beat

> literature  is "The Cat Inside-W.S Burroughs"August 1997.(i guess thats

> the third book of Burrougs published in Turkish.)

> 

What are the other two? Naked Lunch, I would assume, and perhaps Cities

of the Red Night? The Cat Inside is a bit of a surprise, if there's only

three books translated. Don't get me wrong, I love The Cat Inside dearly,

it's my favourite of his minor works (if you'll allow the distinction),

but I wouldn't think it would be a big seller.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:32:10 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

Gerry,

 

glad you've stayed on the list, as well as Phil and Paul.

 

i know you're busy with your Viet Nam book, but i wonder if you'd be willing

to share any insights into Kerouac's approach to poetry and language?

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:24:58 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Blocking of posts

 

I did not want to comment personally on the estate battle but I think I

have to clear up one point.  In response to a request by Mr. Nicosia to

block the postings of Mr. Maher, I told him that if I blocked Mr.

Maher's posts, I would also have to block his because they were both

guilty of mudslinging.  I thought this was a fair response.  As long as

I am the listowner, I will make decisions as to what is or is not

appropriate to discuss on the list.  It's clear to me that this

discussion is unproductive.   Sure, people are free to use the delete

key but I have to deal with Mr. Nicosia's complaints that he is being

victimized.  He has characterized the discussion that has taken place as

a "mugging."  He has said that people have ganged up on him.  I don't

see it that way.  From my point of view, it has been more like a tag

team wrestling match.  Gerry too has had several people in his corner.

>From my point of view, he has given as good as he has gotten.  I wish,

that when we come under attack, all of us could follow Jack Kerouac's

example and reply "I don't need your abuse, you can have it back."

Unfortunately, this is not the case.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:59:32 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Blocking of posts

 

Bill, thanks for your clarification and for your very fair approach to the

matter.

 

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:29:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: wsb

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

>anyone have directions for making burroughs'

>inventions?  I'd be grateful.thanks. matt

>mlpotter@student.umass.edu

 

Take a piece of paper.  Write on it.  If you are so inclined cut it in half

vertically and do the cut-up shuffle until it makes more sense.  If your a

genius you'll be within a half-mile of Burroughs, if you're not a genius, you'll

be within 30 feet of me.

 

If by chance you're talking about an orgone accumulator then you need to read up

on Wilhelm Reich.

 

love and lilies,

 

matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:32:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Stoner Dorson <JenPeace2U@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

 

Please send me a copy of the Kerouac Quarterly sample too:

 

Jennifer Dorson

115 Pin Oak Drive

Carlisle, PA  17013

 

Thanks and peace to you.

Jennifer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:38:51 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997102210400247@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I take issue with Bill Gargan's claim that he "owns" this list.  He

started Beat-L but it is not private property.  The discussions herein

belong to each and every one of us here who participates.  Mr. Gargan

sent me email off the list in which he stated that *he* and *he alone*

will determine what is appropriate material for this list.  Since Beat-L

is not moderated, that is a basic threat of censorship that he claims the

right to do because he started this list.

 

Because one starts a threat of discussion, does not mean one owns that

thread or can determine who may participate and who may not.

 

This is a mailing list.  We have the right to decide which email we want

to read and which we do not.  Bill Gargan does not *own* this list and

does not have the right to make these decisions for us.  He *started*

this list, and for that we are grateful...and he maintains it, for which

we are equally grateful

 

But the list belongs to all of us.  Mr. Gargan stated in his email to me

that he would shut down the list rather than let the fur continue to fly

in this estate debate.  I think if he wants to leave the list himself,

that is his business, but just because he started the list doesnt give

him the right to decide for the rest of us whether we wish to contineue

reading Gerry NIcosia's posts or anyone else's.

 

 

Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:12:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's letters being censored?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022101047.12207A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> I am especially concerned by one Nicosia allegation.  That Ann Charters

> says John Sampas has been censoring Kerouac's letters from the published

> and to be published collections, ordering dis-included letters that he

> (Sampas) found distateful.

 

Well, it is _Selected Letters_, not _Collected Letters_ so someone has to

select them.  That is initially up to the editor, but the editor can only

print what she (Ann Charters in this case) has access to.  And it is

whomever owns/controls access to those letters that determines who

receives that access and what that access involves.  The letters

(currently) being his property (not really but you know what I mean), he

has the right to do so.  I was disappointed with the first volume myself

when I first picked it up and saw that it was indeed _Selected Letters_.

Its all a matter of who deems what important.  It would be great if

everything he ever wrote, from letters to journals to poems and quotes

written on bar napkins were published and the reader could decide, but

that's not gonna happen.  This type of censorship is pretty common and

accepted, its called editing.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:11:35 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Blocking of posts

 

Bill,

 

You are a gracious host. I never saw any attempt of any kind from you to

stifle talk except very fairly and reasonably beg your guests to not beat up

on each other, to try to remember that it is your task to protect us from

such injuries.  I hate censorship of any kind. I love to live in a world

where all kinds of different notions flourish. Where ego shadows in fact do

very often obscure the brilliant light and fruits of our labors. Where our

differences can find expression. Where beating up is not allowed. You doing

good Bill. Very good in deed. Thank you.

 

leon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 7:50 AM

Subject: Blocking of posts

 

 

>I did not want to comment personally on the estate battle but I think I

>have to clear up one point.  In response to a request by Mr. Nicosia to

>block the postings of Mr. Maher, I told him that if I blocked Mr.

>Maher's posts, I would also have to block his because they were both

>guilty of mudslinging.  I thought this was a fair response.  As long as

>I am the listowner, I will make decisions as to what is or is not

>appropriate to discuss on the list.  It's clear to me that this

>discussion is unproductive.   Sure, people are free to use the delete

>key but I have to deal with Mr. Nicosia's complaints that he is being

>victimized.  He has characterized the discussion that has taken place as

>a "mugging."  He has said that people have ganged up on him.  I don't

>see it that way.  From my point of view, it has been more like a tag

>team wrestling match.  Gerry too has had several people in his corner.

>From my point of view, he has given as good as he has gotten.  I wish,

>that when we come under attack, all of us could follow Jack Kerouac's

>example and reply "I don't need your abuse, you can have it back."

>Unfortunately, this is not the case.

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:41:23 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's letters being censored?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

mr wallner: you seem to go everywhich way the wind blows. i have heard

incessantly what you think you are entitled to, and increasingly made

irritated by your continuation of this subject long after our list OWNER has

asked it to cease.

cease and desist,

or,

create your own list.

but please put it to rest for at least a bit.

sincerely

mc

 

Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> I am especially concerned by one Nicosia allegation.  That Ann Charters

> says John Sampas has been censoring Kerouac's letters from the published

> and to be published collections, ordering dis-included letters that he

> (Sampas) found distateful.  Including sexually explicit letters Jack

> wrote to his old girlfriends, and/or where he was too explicit about his

> drug use or bisexuality or something.  Presumably, since Sampas will not

> allow Jacks last letter (where he states his estate desires), he has also

> disincluded any letters from volume 2 where Kerouac attacks any members

> of the Sampas family or makes other references to how his estate should

> be handled.

> 

> If all this is true, it is a crime against history, John Sampas trying to

> sugarcoat Jack Kerouac and present him as somehow purer or more innocent

> than he was.  We deserve to see the real Jack Kerouac, warts and all, and

> no letter should be disincluded from the collections unless there are

> legal reasons or they have no merit at all.

> 

> RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:43:09 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Blocking of posts

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

dear listOWNER bill: thankyou.

mc

 

Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> I did not want to comment personally on the estate battle but I think I

> have to clear up one point.  In response to a request by Mr. Nicosia to

> block the postings of Mr. Maher, I told him that if I blocked Mr.

> Maher's posts, I would also have to block his because they were both

> guilty of mudslinging.  I thought this was a fair response.  As long as

> I am the listowner, I will make decisions as to what is or is not

> appropriate to discuss on the list.  It's clear to me that this

> discussion is unproductive.   Sure, people are free to use the delete

> key but I have to deal with Mr. Nicosia's complaints that he is being

> victimized.  He has characterized the discussion that has taken place as

> a "mugging."  He has said that people have ganged up on him.  I don't

> see it that way.  From my point of view, it has been more like a tag

> team wrestling match.  Gerry too has had several people in his corner.

> >From my point of view, he has given as good as he has gotten.  I wish,

> that when we come under attack, all of us could follow Jack Kerouac's

> example and reply "I don't need your abuse, you can have it back."

> Unfortunately, this is not the case.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:44:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: wsb step-daughter?

 

Reading H. Hunke's 'The Evening Sun...' he makes reference to a daughter of

Joan Adams named Julie that lived with Joan and Bill in Texas.  She was then

5 yrs. old.  Does anyone have any info on what happened to this girl?

 Presumably she was sent to live with more responsible relatives after Bill

killed her mom......Is she still alive???  Any info would be appreciated.

 

             s.e.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:49:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I'd like a Kerouac Quartely , too. Please send to

 

314 Pennell Circle #2

Tallahassee, FL 32310

 

Thanks

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:36:48 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      (fwd) a link to Beatnik

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997102019511559@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Dick Willis <dick.willis@sbln.org.uk> writ

>If you are interested in adding sound, have a look at

> 

>www.headspace.com

> 

>and click on the link to "Beatnik"

> 

>Dick

>______________________________________________________

>Dick Willis             South Bristol Learning Network

 

un saludo a todos !animo!,

rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:49:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's letters being censored?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022101047.12207A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

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>I am especially concerned by one Nicosia allegation.  That Ann Charters

>says John Sampas has been censoring Kerouac's letters from the published

>and to be published collections, ordering dis-included letters that he

>(Sampas) found distateful.  Including sexually explicit letters Jack

>wrote to his old girlfriends, and/or where he was too explicit about his

>drug use or bisexuality or something.  Presumably, since Sampas will not

>allow Jacks last letter (where he states his estate desires), he has also

>disincluded any letters from volume 2 where Kerouac attacks any members

>of the Sampas family or makes other references to how his estate should

>be handled.

> 

>If all this is true, it is a crime against history, John Sampas trying to

>sugarcoat Jack Kerouac and present him as somehow purer or more innocent

>than he was.  We deserve to see the real Jack Kerouac, warts and all, and

>no letter should be disincluded from the collections unless there are

>legal reasons or they have no merit at all.

> 

> 

>RJW

 

For more see review of SELECTED LETTERS - JACK KEROAUC 1940-1956 by Clark

Colridge in the Village Voice. I may be spelling Clark's name incorrectly.

Call Reference at the library to locate the review.

 

In that review it is one of his major complaints.

 

j grant

 

 

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=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:57:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022113119.11623A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

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>I take issue with Bill Gargan's claim that he "owns" this list.

 

Richard,

 

When someone takes on the task of starting and maintaining a list they have

the right to set up rules that everyone must follow. Gargan really does

"own" this list.

 

I can understand your position, but yo'llnever fully understand Gargon's

until you jump into "IT" and try.

 

If someone does not like the way he runs it that person can complain to

Gargan, or start a list of their own. I say this to clarify, not to

criticize.

 

I have found him to be fair.

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

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=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:06:55 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Mr wallner:

you do not own this list. bill gargan owns this list. i am beyond irritated

by your whining.

go start your own damned list

i like this list

i like bill gargan

i like my friends on this list

i think bill does a great job. he owns this list. this is NOT a newsgroup or

bulletin board.

if you can't stop your whining then leave.

and if you have been on this list for some time, you would know that i have

never said this to anyone before.

but i am fed up.

go away. find some friends. get a life. get some manners. the universe does

not owe you one goddamned thing. life is what we make it. we  make our own

karma. yours is going down the proverbial toilet as i type.

(sorry bill but i am rip shit by now)

marie countryman

 

Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> I take issue with Bill Gargan's claim that he "owns" this list.  He

> started Beat-L but it is not private property.  The discussions herein

> belong to each and every one of us here who participates.  Mr. Gargan

> sent me email off the list in which he stated that *he* and *he alone*

> will determine what is appropriate material for this list.  Since Beat-L

> is not moderated, that is a basic threat of censorship that he claims the

> right to do because he started this list.

> 

> Because one starts a threat of discussion, does not mean one owns that

> thread or can determine who may participate and who may not.

> 

> This is a mailing list.  We have the right to decide which email we want

> to read and which we do not.  Bill Gargan does not *own* this list and

> does not have the right to make these decisions for us.  He *started*

> this list, and for that we are grateful...and he maintains it, for which

> we are equally grateful

> 

> But the list belongs to all of us.  Mr. Gargan stated in his email to me

> that he would shut down the list rather than let the fur continue to fly

> in this estate debate.  I think if he wants to leave the list himself,

> that is his business, but just because he started the list doesnt give

> him the right to decide for the rest of us whether we wish to contineue

> reading Gerry NIcosia's posts or anyone else's.

> 

> Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:09:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: What person would they like to meet?

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19971021124142.006a9aa8@maila.wm.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>I would say Allen would probably want to meet Walt Whitman.  JK would want

>to meet Jesus or the Buddha.

> 

>That's what I'm thinking right now.

> 

>Jon

 

Once he discovered her I think he would have sought out Meridel LeSueur.

The two would have hit the road together. Both were wanderers, listeners,

observers, recorders and eloquent, honest  writers.

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

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=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:44:55 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bill Gargan

 

-----Original Message-----

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Date: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 9:28 AM

Subject: Re: Bill Gargan

 

 

 

>Leon Tabory wrote:

>> 

>> So far I am very grateful that Bill has not yet stepped in to really stop

>> the heaping of verbal abusive mudslinging that the guests to his house

>> continuing to indulge, fully aware that their host wishes to do

everything

>> in his power to protect his guests from personal attacks by other guests.

I

>> sympathize with Bill who I have seen to be extremely  tolerant and who

has

>> taken on a difficult job of creating and maintaining an environment to

>> encourage expression that is not pesonally hurting other guests. I never

saw

>> him stifling any idea, even when it strayed far from the mission of the

list

>> that he created.

>> 

>> Stopping the beating up on others with words is requisite for any forum

>> where the expression of ideas and opinions is encouraged. Bill is no

>> dictator. He has never imposed his ideas or restrained the ideas of

others.

>> Perhaps people who believe that a list could be healthier if run by a

>> committee or the entire membership and guest list, could try to organize

>> one. I might even join them if they allow me in, but it would be a

different

>> kind of social experiment than this one. This one is thriving and indeed

>> creating new hopes and possibilities for us. There will be others in time

>> that will do better differently, but that is no reason to insult people

who

>> are nurturing a beautiful garden, even if it is not the garden of eden.

>> 

>> leon

>> 

>> Mostly I wanted to put my voice in to let Bill know that I support him

here.

>> 

>> Thank you

>> 

>> leon

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:13:15 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      on the bus

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usually i wouldn't send this in to the list, but what the hey, as it

might at least entertain those of us who are still opening our mail

before deleting it. and it puts my howl parody in context.

ROAD TRIP

or, the greyhound night of the soul

1997

Prologue:

Howl with a WhineChaser

 

   i saw the best part of my mind destroyed by sleep deprivation,

   starving

   hysterical naked

   dragging myself through the greyhound stations looking for my

   angry luggage

   angelheaded hipster burning for the ancient heavenly connection to

   louisville and back

  in the stary dynamo in the greyhound

   machinery at night

   who poverty and tatters and howl-lowed eyed sat up wishing to

   be smoking

   marijuana in the supernatural darkness of cramped seats and

   angry

   drivers hurtling us past the tops of cities,

   leaving me to  contemplating bladder control,

   and patience.

   who bared my ass to heaven while trying to take a leak outside

   of

   cramped and longlined service stops,

   wishing for the toilet  paper,

   who passed through yet more bus stations with burning red eyes

   hallucinating ohio and blake-light tragedy for vertigo when

   reading

   on the road

   who was expelled from the port authority waiting room by angry

   mop and

   broom holding scholars of the war against further grime,

   who refused to cower in unshaven rooms in underwear, praying

   for enough

   money to burn in wastebaskets and listening to the terror

   through the

   aisles

   who proclaims the aisles holy!!

      i=92m with you in l=92ville, perry, as you stand on one leg with fe=

z

on head to prove               sobriety  sufficent

   for one more vodka!

   i=92m with you in l=92ville, luther, in your shock and amazement stari=

ng

at our howl-

   loween power  pumpkin!

   i=92m with you and bickering, and awestruck by your readings, jim,

kitchen

   table and

   twice told

   i=92m with everyone, recordingnon-secret tapes of lives and travels of

   fellow

   busmates

   but also the rantings of the mad poets at the kitchen table, and the

fine rantings at the twice told!

   all are holy!

 even bus drivers are holy!

paranoid and psychotic and angry holy busmen!

holy! holy! holy!

(27 hrs down and 24 hrs back, my own insomniacathon of the dark

   soul of

   greyhound night).

   _____

tales and travelers:

 the journey

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And so i go,  like lamb to the slaughter, shipped in box cars disguised

as bus down to the bohemian ink/published in heaven event of spoken word

and music.

Almost paralyzed by fear of public speaking with those so practiced and

wise, newbie eyed and hesitant, such small feelings mirrored in my

external universe of the bus station, here in Montpelier, capitol citiy

of VT=92s greyhound or rather VT Transit station: you see, it=92s a trail=

er,

no inside seating available, in fact, it=92s more  like a box car, or,

more accurately, two box cars clamped together, with tradkway made of

highway abutment heavy concete blocks to perch on, weathered and rusted

nails and all.

Just as poh a white trash station you could fine in any appalacian small

town.

 

As i said, i=92m off to the louisville rant for bohemian ink and literary

renaissance, to read at the twice told coffee house event, to meet my

fellow fellaheen souled bohemians, my brother poets on the net. The

brainchild of Chris Ritter birthed by Ron Whitehead and all bohemes who

could make the journey, this event looms large for many of us in this

community of poets and other artistic endeavorings, coming soon after

the first bohemian meeting at the falls in Patterson, NJ this past

summer.

A sharing of opinions, life events, poetry and good humor, about to take

on corporeal form in l=92ville.

 

So, at last the bus arrives, half hour late, and i jump aboard after

lugging luggage into bowls of the beast. It takes us 5 hours to reach

Albany, as the bus winds its leisurely way through every hill and dale

in the countryside, stopping at bus stops, churches, dairy queens and

more, offiicial bus stops up here in the mountains. It=92s autumn, it=92s

beautiful.

Five hours later, in the beauty of the autumnal day, we finally roll

into Albany and i totter off in search of flush toilets and

companionship. I am crazy with the need to have a conversation. I have

my tape recorder out , and I turn to Jesse Jackson, a fine looking black

man with some grimness around the eyes. I ask him to record his travels

and anything else he cares to tell me. in his own words, jesse jackson

obliges:

 

=93Well,=94 said he,

=93i just packed up all my stuff

i walked out on the best job i=92ve ever had,

(fiber optics)

because i got to get back to Huston

that=92s right

lock stock and barrel,

i got to get back to Huston

i got to reconcile with my wife,

my wife back in Huston.

you see, because things are

pretty rocky right now.

it seems like it=92s going to be one

long and ballistic trip-

my mind

my mind, it keeps racing ahead

of me,

thinking of everything waiting for me

when i get home.

(by the way,

you are a nice person and i thank you

for talking to me.

you have yourself a good trip and all

yourself).=94

I turn off the recorder and we talk awhile, both of us stand guard over

luggage as each makes trips for bathrooms, for information, for food.

there is no food. Soon the disembodied voice of the grey hound demands

we stand in separate lines to board our respective busses. we part,

dragging our luggage as we wish good luck and say goodbye.

The bus i board is crowded. no opportunity for solitude and no extra

room for all my stuff. I am grimly searching for the next best thing

when Estella beckons to me. Estella a beautiful hispanic woman who  will

be my bus mate throughout the night and into the next day. Estella at

first tells me she is too shy to talk into my recorder, but she does:

=93I=92m from St Albans, VT and i=92m going to El Paso, Texas to pack up =

my

mother and bring her back north to live with me and my husband. I=92m onl=

y

staying the weekend, then, with my mother, i=92m coming right back - i=92=

ve

got to get back to work, my mother won=92t travel alone.=94

Estella is happy to have me as a seatmate.

she opens up a bag,

spilling out into our laps

grapes, tangerines,

bananas

and lots of red licorice.

She shares freely with me, and we settle in comfortably.

Estella has a happy soul and a deep feeling of family,

which she also shares freely.

 I muse in the night about these two people who took a chance and talked

to me, of their need for family and attatchment, of two people heading

to Texas, on separate busses, going home, bringing family home.

Family.

I myself have little family, i see my journey as a search for community,

an extended family, if you will, of poets and magical thinkers.

Estella changes busses at 9am the next day, and i finally pass out for a

few hours, awakening as the bus pulls into the louisville greyhound

station, and frees me from the doggedness of my travails and travel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lousiville

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jim Gardner is there to greet me with the best of southern hospitality;

presenting me

with a map of the city

antique post cards

lunch at the Twice Told

a brief tour of the city

a bedroom to myself,

 into which i bombdive upon arrival,

morning coffee.

in addition, the kitchen

is soon filled with perry, then luther,

the following day, full of laughter pomes and great conversation,

and somewhat drunken dumbshow antics

and friendship.

In addition, jim provides me with escort back to bus station,

while in between the greeting and the send-off,

we fill the days with talk

laughter

great readings

and performances

at the twice told cafe.

A golden time, the times i savor, when meeting instantly turns into

comraderie, rapport, and which extends to the meeting of the other

performers at the twice told coffee house. We meet Charlie from Amnesia

Motel, and quickly swoop him up to join our list community -I

ceremonially present a puzzled Ron Whitehead with our power pumpkin.

Despite plans for howl-ing at the moon and other watering holes, we are

so exhausted, we choose sleep and breakfast over late night ale-full

hours.

A goodbye breakfast for Luther, with Ron betwixt and between dashing

into parking lot to shower us all with gifts: posters, chapbooks, spoken

word CDs!  Jim takes Perry and me for a tour of the city, the dam, and

fossils.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Going Home

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I leave the following day, Jim again escorts me to the greyhound

station. Again, the bus is packed with little room and no chance of

sitting alone. My eyes roam desperately about, searching for a suitable

seatmate for this 6 hr leg of my journey. And then I see him: Tripper, a

member of the Rainbow Family, all of 23  yrs old and on his own since

the age of 12. he is a lovely young man, tanned and with baby fat still

in his round cheeks. his eyes smile. he tells me he is on the way to

join a commune of

Hare Krishnas in Wheeling, west virginia.  =93i=92ve been damaged by my

birth family,=94 he tells me. Born illegitimate to mother with madness, h=

e

was taken care of episodically by aunts and other  women in his extended

family, always told by mother that it was his birth that ruined her

life, alcoholic and emotionally ill, she sought to lay the blame on him.

Tripper does not go by his birth name. His name is a rainbow family

name, and he now seeks further family, community, spirituality with the

Krishnas. Tripper did spend time in louisville, nomadic by nature,

prefers the countryside: =93in louisville i=92d sleep all day and drink a=

ll

night. the city, the city, it hurts me to the point of needing to drink

the sickness away...and all my friends were vampires, but they did have

good hearts.=94

I am again reminded of my quest for community, rapport and support from

poet friends. I have always had a difficult relationship with my family,

and to all extents and purposes, have only a brother and his family left

me as family. I=92ve had a stormy and thorny relationship with my brother=

,

but my starry-eyed love for his children, my neice and nephew, help us

bridge the abyss that our parents created.

My last stop prior to returning to VT is to stay with his family in

Rhode Island, to celebrate my neice Jesse=92s 16th birthday. I love her s=

o

much it hurts at times.

 

So there we were, Jessie Jackson, Estella, Tripper, and me - all

searching for family ties, for reconciliation, for love, for community.

I wish all of my seatmates blessings. I feel myself blessed by this

trip,  this labor of love.

 

RANT ON, BOHEMIANS, MY FRIENDS, MY FAMILY OF POETS!

James A. Gardner

Luther Jett

Perry Lindstrom

Christopher Ritter

Paul McDonald

Ron Whitehead

and Charlie, from Amnesia Motel.

and Derek Beaulieu, whose labor of love was the creation of our poster.

and all who performed and spoken word poets who shared stagetime with

us.

and all of you who could not attend.

 

Blessings on all.

and thanks.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:14:18 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Richard,

 

    It's obvious to me that you don't quite understand exactly what a

mailing list is.  When Bill Gargan says he "owns" this list, he is statin=

g a

fact.  He's not speaking in semantics as you are=97in the final analysis,=

 it

is his to do with as he pleases.

    Bill Gargan has been a model listowner, and when he makes the request

that estate discussions should be

taken off list rather than perpetuated here, then you, and everyone else =

on

this list have two options: 1) Go somewhere else and start your own list

(which YOU would own) or 2) honor his request and get back to the real

reason the Beat-L has been so succesful: worthwhile discussion of the bea=

t

generation.

    The estate battle that has fleshed itself out once again on

this list has been horrible.  It is unroductive in the grandest sense.  W=

hat

has come of it all?  A bunch of Unsubscribes, a bunch of name calling, a

bunch horseshit that has gotten way out of hand.

    Typically, arounnd an event like the anniversary of Jack's death, the

number of subscribers skyrockets. . .  what a cheerful welcome those newb=

ies

have received.  For what it's worth: Welcome! New Beat-L-er's, honest, we=

're

a saner bunch than we appear right now.

 

 

Bruce

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:58:06 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cos <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate debate)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:09:09 PDT Keith Medline wrote:

 

> From: Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:09:09 PDT

> Subject: A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate debate)

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

 

[snip]

 

  While this is

> an important piece, would not America be a better selection from Ginser?

> Where is Kerouac, where is Lew, and Burroughs?  These men were certainly

> influencial?

 

Feelings on Burroughs in the academic community seem split between those who

think that he was "the only American writer concievably possessed on genius

(Norman Mailer) and those who think he wsa completely irrelevant (David Lodge.)

Strange that one writer could inspire so much difference in opinions.

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"To know, and be not knowing"

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:32:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Can I get a Kerouac Quarterly too?

 

Jonathan Pickle

CS Unit 5978

PO Box 8793

Williamsburg, Va 23186-5978

 

Thanks.  To whom and how much should we make the check out to.

 

Jon

 

At 12:49 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I'd like a Kerouac Quartely , too. Please send to

> 

>314 Pennell Circle #2

>Tallahassee, FL 32310

> 

>Thanks

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:35:01 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sundstrom0 <Sundstrom0@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      60's Counterculture

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

For my class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper

on an aspect of the sixties.  I want to do something on the Beat Generation,

however, it has to be more than a literary paper.

Does anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on

60's Counterculture??

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks...

 

jennifer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:52:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Poema

Comments: To: brittany@whidbey.net, HaynesE@Fairchildpub.com, tompur@relia.net

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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     Hold on to the

     glittering eyes

        those

     wine-dark opals

        shimmering

     in blue porcelain

     of moon blush

 

     stella maris

     so near to me

     reaching   whirling

     the dervish body

     fleshed    rose

     in your nearness

 

     whirl in divine air

        the dark hair

     wings down on chest

        cathedral of

     hands clenched

     palms pressed

     caress     linger

     fingers to mouth

     erupts     the kiss

 

                the holy work begins

 

        COME

     be-come one

     come on    be one

        come down

     be loved   beloved

 

        yes

     good       morning

     good yes

     birds converge

     bloom in blue sky

     sunning    blossomed

        trees

     the bells  the bells

     a sweet omen

        ordains

     the eternal return

     unfolding  chiming

        dawn

     of secret smiles

 

     your eyes opening

 

                the holy work begins

 

     -----------------------------------------

     ----- by Sean D. Young 4/10/96

           syoung@dsw.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:57:57 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Blocking of posts

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:24 AM 10/22/97 EDT, you wrote:

>I did not want to comment personally on the estate battle but I think I

>have to clear up one point.  In response to a request by Mr. Nicosia to

>block the postings of Mr. Maher, I told him that if I blocked Mr.

>Maher's posts, I would also have to block his....

 He has said that people have ganged up on him.  I don't

>see it that way.  From my point of view, it has been more like a tag

>team wrestling match.  Gerry too has had several people in his corner.

>>From my point of view, he has given as good as he has gotten.  I wish,

>that when we come under attack, all of us could follow Jack Kerouac's

>example and reply "I don't need your abuse, you can have it back."

 

To Mr. Gargan (and Beat-List readers):

 

        OK, now you're the one who's reopening the worms.

        I question your accuracy, Bill.

        No. 1) I did not ask you, this time around, to block Maher's posts.

I did ask for that last May.  This time I suggested that there is a serious

problem when people can keep posting things they know are not true--stolen

Columbia U xeroxes that were not stolen, my supposed receipt of Kerouac's

royalties, etc.--which DELIBERATELY MISLEAD THE BEAT-L READERS.

        No. 2) I stick to the "mugging" scenario.  I posted a

straightforward notice of my legal victory in Florida and where and why I

wanted to take the litigation.  Within 2 hours Paul Maher had posted his

"poison touch" message, followed shortly thereafter by Chaput's post.  A day

later we had Gyenis and then a bit later Heminway checking in.  Joe Grant

and Bentz Kirby, seeing me overwhelmed, stepped in at that point to say a

few kind words in my behalf, to keep me from having to singlehandedly stave

off defamations from four different people.

        No. 3) You claim I am as guilty as they are.  But when did I print

defamatory claims about any of them?  I did not say, "Mr. Maher is

collecting ten thousand dollars a month from Mr. Sampas" or "Mr. Hemenway

has stolen xeroxes from Boston University"--those are the kind of statements

that are posted about me EVERY DAY, completely off-the-wall charges that

have no basis in fact.  OR THEY MAKE ACCUSATIONS ABOUT MY DEAD FRIEND JAN

KEROUAC, WHICH IS ABOUT AS LOW AS YOU CAN GET.  What if I were to post,

"Stella Kerouac was a big crook who planned to steal Jack's money"?  You

don't think they'd get pissed off if I said things like that about one of

their dead friends?

        So I turn around and tell them they're lying and (just once I said)

"full of bullshit," and then you call me a "mudslinger."  I DO NOT THINK

THAT IS FAIR.

        Jack Kerouac stood for truth, fairness, and justice for all, esp.

for the underdog.  Remember that too, Mr. Gargan.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:59:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dont leave Gerry! Gargan should resign!

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971021181821.18771A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>It isnt the place of a list moderator to censor the list

>inappropriately.  The estate argument is a resonable topic here, as long

>as discourse is handled civilly.  If Gargan is trying to force Nicosia

>off the list, he should resign a list moderator!

> 

>Lets have a vote:

> 

>Should Nicosia leave the list or Gargan resignas moderator?

 

 

Might be a good idea if this slows down. A list is not a democracy for one

thing. If we proceed in a laid-back manner we'll get past this conflict and

continue to learn and share information and ideas.

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:15:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: 60's Counterculture

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:35 PM 10/22/97 EDT, you wrote:

>For my class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper

>on an aspect of the sixties.  I want to do something on the Beat Generation,

>however, it has to be more than a literary paper.

>Does anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on

>60's Counterculture??

>Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

>Thanks...

> 

>jennifer

> 

Dear Jennifer,   Oct 22, 1997

 

        The book you are looking for is Bruce Cook's THE BEAT GENERATION.  I

think it was just reissued in paperback.  It is all about the influence of

the Beats on the 60's.

        Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:16:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      my voice

 

i'd like to share a poem also, in the midst of all this conflict. I'd like to

remember the spirit of freedom and "get in a car and go" I'd appreciate

comments, this is my first draft. here it goes....

 

Another car poem

 

take a drive with me tonight

arch your back in the front seat

and give me that wicked smile that promises

we'll "get lost" on a dirt road somewhere

        Just ride...

with the coffe stained atrands of your hair

leaking out the window

as your laughter crescendoes

to the shape of this little town,

to the slip drip excitement

the expanded view

the canopy of palm trees and night road sound

   humming crickets, and

 "four wheels to the groud"

i'd like to watch the world circle from the passenger seat,

as you sprinkle ahes

into the coated black air

             Peppermint on your lips

             "red afternoon in your eyes"

let me inhale you

   in the middle of the night

with those fuzzy, soft-shadowed inside the car senses

let me smell your pine needle incense

watch you with your knees pulled up

to your chest

wishing for some down-time

 alone time

 happy raindrop sugar sweet time

             I know you come a live at night time

i know how you lower your eyes to the ground

  as if thats where they belong

   belong to the land

     behold the land!

      Grab onto the road!

         Hold tight the night!

Take a drive with me

take the wheel

take your big dreamsad eyes

take the harvest moon

take scented sounds spirits of foggy forest paths

take radio songs and tall rusty haired country boys

take your slitted mouth

        that leans side to side

    Take my hand....

we'll spin inside the wet mosquito night

answering the call of the highway

 Two wind chasers mixing up a little homemade adventure

in this mad-based       mad-crazed

   sterile world.

 

~~Marlene Giraud

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:24:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hi folks,

        i work for B Dalton Books which is affiliated with B&N and let me

just say that we never keep any books behind our counter. Our jack

kerouac section is always well stocked with the latest releases which

included the recent 40th anniversary edition of On the Road. Perhaps some

stores have policies regarding this issue but in my case (A N.J. store

inside a mall) we don't practice that type of customer service. This

includes William Burrough's books which have dominated two shelves on

their own in the fiction section. And reecently i have been on the

mission to order The Beat Generation trading cards by Tundra Press (i

think its Tundra) which is a rare item to find but nevertheless something

we should sell to the public. All in all, my B.Dalton store is a beatnik

haven.

                                        jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:20:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 60's Counterculture

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

check out things concerning Allen's activism.  He was at the forefront of

the Beats who mingled with the Hippies.  Check out especially his testimony

at the Chicago 7 trial.  It's beautiful.

 

Jon

 

At 01:35 PM 10/22/97 EDT, you wrote:

>For my class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper

>on an aspect of the sixties.  I want to do something on the Beat Generation,

>however, it has to be more than a literary paper.

>Does anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on

>60's Counterculture??

>Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

>Thanks...

> 

>jennifer

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:31:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 60's Counterculture

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi Jennifer,

 

William Lhamon Jr. wrote a book called "Deliberate Speed: The Origin of a

Cultural Style in the 1950s" which deals , obviously, with the fifties, but

always with longview toward the 60s of socio-political implications of the

Beats and related aesthetics, ie,  jazz, abstract expressionism, early rock

& roll. Damn good read on Smithsonian Press, 1990.

 

Good Luck,

 

Preston

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:29:52 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Poema

 

lovely Sean - thank you for sharing this.

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Sean Young

Sent:   Wednesday, October 22, 1997 10:52 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Poema

 

     Hold on to the

     glittering eyes

        those

     wine-dark opals

        shimmering

     in blue porcelain

     of moon blush

 

     stella maris

     so near to me

     reaching   whirling

     the dervish body

     fleshed    rose

     in your nearness

 

     whirl in divine air

        the dark hair

     wings down on chest

        cathedral of

     hands clenched

     palms pressed

     caress     linger

     fingers to mouth

     erupts     the kiss

 

                the holy work begins

 

        COME

     be-come one

     come on    be one

        come down

     be loved   beloved

 

        yes

     good       morning

     good yes

     birds converge

     bloom in blue sky

     sunning    blossomed

        trees

     the bells  the bells

     a sweet omen

        ordains

     the eternal return

     unfolding  chiming

        dawn

     of secret smiles

 

     your eyes opening

 

                the holy work begins

 

     -----------------------------------------

     ----- by Sean D. Young 4/10/96

           syoung@dsw.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:28:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What person would they like to meet?

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19971021124142.006a9aa8@maila.wm.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

and i'll bet burroughs would have wanted to meet kafka.

 

just a thought.

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE

"Someone must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having

done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial

 

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Jonathan Pickle wrote:

 

> I would say Allen would probably want to meet Walt Whitman.  JK would want

> to meet Jesus or the Buddha.

> 

> That's what I'm thinking right now.

> 

> Jon

> 

> At 03:14 AM 10/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >If you asked Jack, Neal, Allen, and William the following question, what do

> >you think their answer would be?

> >

> >QUESTION: What person would you like to meet, living or dead; and why?

> >

> >I asked Kurt Vonnegut that question and he said Mark Twain. Maybe Jack would

> >like to have met his brother Gerard.

> >

> >A question for you all to ponder out there in webland.

> >

> >is Kurt beat?

> >so it goes, Attila

> >

> >

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:43:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MARK NOFERI <NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>

Subject:      Jazz and American Culture

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hi,

My name is Mark Noferi - at one point, I was a sometimes

contributor to this list, although my posts have

fallen off completely as my workload has increased. I do

still try to keep up with the goings-on, though.

 

Recently, an essay of mine titled "Jazz and the Beat Generation:

The Musical Model in Literature" was published in the recent

issue of Jazz and American Culture, an online academic journal

originating from U-Texas Austin. My essay dealt with how

Kerouac and Ginsberg used jazz as a musical model for their

writing at different points in their career, and how the culture

surrounding the music affected their writing as well.

 

I know, from following the list, that the level of knowledge on this list

is extremely high - so I'd like to invite anyone with the time to check out

my work and let me know what you think, I'd love to hear some feedback.

For anyone interested in jazz, there are some other extremely interesting

articles as well. The address for my essay is

 

http://www.dla.utexas.edu/depts/ams/Jazz/Jazz3/Noferi.htm

 

and the address for Jazz and American Culture is

 

http://www.dla.utexas.edu/depts/ams/Jazz/Jazz.html

 

Thanks very much,

Mark Noferi

mnoferi@mailcity.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:47:37 -0700

Reply-To:     Sarah Sage <yb806@freenet.victoria.bc.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sarah Sage <yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      Beats

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

I just want to start out this message by appologizing to anyone I may

have offended with any comments I have made. I'm knew on the list and I

dove into a matter I don't really know anything about. Honestly, I'm

a little unsure about this list b/c I don't Know  alot of beat stuff. I

do, however enjoy this list and would like to get to know a few members

to feel more comfortable when I send something to beat-l.-(Just to let

you know where I'm coming from)

 

Has anyone on this list met or been friends with any of the Beats?

 

Sarah

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:51:11 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 60's Counterculture

In-Reply-To:  <3e676882.344e391f@aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

For a direct account I'd say read _The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test_.

Everything that makes the sixties the Sixties (counterculturally) started

with Kesey.  You also get to see Cassady and (briefly) Kerouac.  And Kesey

was heavily, heavily influenced by Kerouac.  Hunter S. Thompson would be

good to bring in too, but I don't know of any critical works of the nature

you're looking for.  Thompson and the New Journalists changed the way news

was written and pretty much brought about the "creative non-fiction"

genre.  They are directly connected to the Beats (Kerouac and Burroughs in

particular).

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:57:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

Comments: To: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <01bcdee4$05474d80$0569e2cf@hartman>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:

 

> Richard,

>=20

>     It's obvious to me that you don't quite understand exactly what a

> mailing list is.  When Bill Gargan says he "owns" this list, he is statin=

g a

> fact.  He's not speaking in semantics as you are=97in the final analysis,=

 it

> is his to do with as he pleases.

 

 

When I send an email to this list, I am sending it to everyone not just=20

Bill Gargan, and it is the property of everyone who receives it.  Bill=20

GArgan does not have the right to decide for everyone else if they may=20

read my email or anyone else's.  THIS IS A FREE AND OPEN LIST, NOT A=20

MODERATED ONE....

 

It is a mailing list, not physical property.  It is alist of addresses. =20

By consenting to be on this list, we consent for everyone else on the=20

list to have our email address.  Gargan is not a moderator.  He is a=20

voluntary participant who agrees to keep the list of addresses.

 

If this was a private bbs on a computer Gargan owned, that would be=20

different.  Then he would own it.  He doesnt.  This is a public list,=20

that he started...but still a public list.

 

He should change it to a moderated list if he wants the control over=20

content that he says he wants.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:48:01 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: on the bus

In-Reply-To:  <199710221714.NAA09899@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

mc

wow! sounds like you bunch who had a chance to get down to louisville for

the reading had quite an event. i am honoured that i was able to help in

the little way of donoating some artwork and time for the promotional

poster. yr prose captures the highs and lows of the readings, as well as

the bustrip beautifully. thanks for posting tis, esp in these troubled

times.

you voice joyfully echoes around the room above the fighting.

i imagine us all in one room (heres that image again) where much of the

room is consumed in yelling and swearing, smallminded fighting, when you

start readig your words off to one side. slowly people begin to realize

what yr doing and one by one stop yelling and quietly listen to yr

beautiful pieces. thanks for all youve done around here, marie - you

honour us all.

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:21:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ron Guest <rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>

Subject:      Let them post

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        This is amazing.  Gerry Nicosia sends a post after several months

absence.  A few post get nasty.  We all condemn the nasty post and do some

big time whinnig on the estate thread which might get in the way of who is

going to play JK in OTR thread.  Now the estate thread (which does have some

interesting elements) has turned into the who owns the list/get the hell off

if you don't like it thread.  I think some of the same people that condemned

the original estate nastiness are indulging in a little themselves against

each other.  Gerry, keep us informed.  Phil, et al let us hear your side.

Bill,your the man..let these guys post.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:21:22 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:38:51 -0400 from

              <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

 

Mr. Wallner, I own the list.  I started it and when I choose I will shut it dow

n.  Start your own list if you like.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:47:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's letters being censored?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:19 AM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I am especially concerned by one Nicosia allegation.  That Ann Charters

>says John Sampas has been censoring Kerouac's letters from the published

>and to be published collections, ordering dis-included letters that he

>(Sampas) found distateful.  Including sexually explicit letters Jack

>wrote to his old girlfriends, and/or where he was too explicit about his

>drug use or bisexuality or something.  Presumably, since Sampas will not

>allow Jacks last letter (where he states his estate desires), he has also

>disincluded any letters from volume 2 where Kerouac attacks any members

>of the Sampas family or makes other references to how his estate should

>be handled.

> 

>If all this is true, it is a crime against history, John Sampas trying to

>sugarcoat Jack Kerouac and present him as somehow purer or more innocent

>than he was.  We deserve to see the real Jack Kerouac, warts and all, and

>no letter should be disincluded from the collections unless there are

>legal reasons or they have no merit at all.

> 

> 

>RJW

>Most letters from estates are edited in this manner out of respect to the

living who may be offended or hurt by the contents of said letters in question.

Indeed it would be embarrasing to see in print someone's negative comments

or true feelings towards their subject. I do not remember how many years it

is that a letter may be published after the deceased. Maybe it's 50 but I

could be wrong. Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:50:17 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

How would you feel if Bill said he would close the list completely? Then

would you ask if he "owned" the list? Think about it. . .Paul. ..

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:31:37 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: 60's Counterculture

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:35:01 EDT from <Sundstrom0@AOL.COM>

 

Start with Morris Dickstein's Gates of Eden.   Also Tod Gitlan's "Sixties: Days

 of Hope, Days of Rage."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:44:03 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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yo, brother bill.

amen

mc

 

Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> Mr. Wallner, I own the list.  I started it and when I choose I will shut it

 dow

> n.  Start your own list if you like.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:47:42 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      editorial message

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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to  limit bandwith, and for brevity's sake, to those of you who read my

tale of on the bus and reading, i neglected to mention that Tripper

listened to the performance by, and read Paul McDonald's WRITE OF

PASSAGE enthusiastically, and then read all of my chapbooks on board. It

was great to turn him on to new stuff. he took down my snail mail,, and

i may from time to time update his adventures of the soul with the

Krishnas.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:28:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: What person would they like to meet?

Mime-Version: 1.0

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     I would think Allen would have wanted to meet Blake...just to see if

     the voice he "heard" in NYC was really Blake's...and what would he

     have done if it wasn't?

 

     One would sincerely hope that, had Jack met the Buddha on the road, he

     would kill him. (my Soto is showing).

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt h.

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: What person would they like to meet?

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    10/22/97 12:09 PM

 

 

>I would say Allen would probably want to meet Walt Whitman.  JK would want

>to meet Jesus or the Buddha.

> 

>That's what I'm thinking right now.

> 

>Jon

 

Once he discovered her I think he would have sought out Meridel LeSueur.

The two would have hit the road together. Both were wanderers, listeners,

observers, recorders and eloquent, honest  writers.

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:08:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 60's Counterculture

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19971022142035.0068b3f0@maila.wm.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Also, the whole LSD stinkaroo.  Leary of course, who was buddies with

Ginsey, Corso, etc.  Also, The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg video we

were talking about a few weeks ago has footage of Ginsberg's testimony to

Congress about LSD when it was made (about to be made, then) illegal.

Check out Kesey's web sites (www.kesey.com, www.intrepidtrips.com) for

some good info on that.  Leary is sometimes lumped in with the Beats

though not usually in a literary sense.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:25:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: 60's Counterculture

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>For my class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper

>on an aspect of the sixties.  I want to do something on the Beat Generation,

>however, it has to be more than a literary paper.

>Does anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on

>60's Counterculture??

>Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

>Thanks...

 

>jennifer

 

     Just make sure you work in the following quote:

 

     "Ommmmmmm"

                Allen Ginsberg, Chicago, 1968 (and a few hundred thousand

                other times)

 

     Gins' "calming of the angry minds" in (Franklin?) park has to go down

     as the most remarkable protest method (next to gasoline, a saffron

     robe and a match) in this century.  That is the definitive Beat

     influence on politics of the '60s.

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt h.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:18:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997102215225368@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> Mr. Wallner, I own the list.  I started it and when I choose I will shut it

 dow

> n.  Start your own list if you like.

> 

 

Mr. Gargan, you do not own the individual email addresses of everyone on

this list.  Go ahead and shut it down.  You cant stop the members of this

list from collectivley communicating with each other.

 

So shut it down.  I have archives of this list, I can put together a list

of all the addresses and start it back up almost as fast as you can kill

it.   The only difference is that I would never consider mysef more than

just another participant.  I wouldnt bully people off the list, threaten

others or claim the right to determine which subject matter is appropriate.

 

  This list exsists because of the people on it.  You can change the

forwarding address.  You cant kill it, not as long as we want it to go on.

 

since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it.  Period.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:11:20 +0000

Reply-To:     foyeb@middlesex.cc.ma.us

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Brian Foye <foyeb@MIDDLESEX.CC.MA.US>

Organization: Middlesex Community College

Subject:      Safe in Heaven Dead

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Greetings from Lowell, Massachusetts! I've been on the list for a

while, but this is my first post.

 

My name is Brian Foye and I teach a course at the University of

Massachusetts at Lowell called "Literature of the Beat Movement." I

also teach a course at Middlesex Community College in Lowell called,

simply, "Kerouac." (I know, I know, bottom feeding off the Beats, but

it beats other jobs I've had in Lowell, like a stint in sanitation, or

assembling cables for Wang Computers.)

 

Anyway, the course on Kerouac at Middlesex Community College meets on

Tuesday nights from 6:00 to 9:00. Yesterday, 21 October, we read parts

of the Diamond Sutra, the Lankavatara Scripture, letters from Kerouac

to Ginsberg on Buddhism, and a section of Kerouac's "Wake Up." We also

read The Scripture of the Golden Eternity. "Do you think the emptiness

of the sky will ever crumble away?"

 

At the end of the class we piled into five cars and made the short

drive up Gorham Street to the Edson Cemetery. We parked at the fork in

the road just past 1300 Liquors and 1400 Motors, gingerly hopped the

old green painted iron spike fence of Edson, and made our way to

Seventh and Lincoln. One student, amazingly, produced a flashlight,

and we walked through the cemetery on a cold October night.

 

The conversation was about Kerouac, but in the cemetery it was hard

not to think of Ginsberg's recent passing. Once, over dinner in

Lowell, I spoke with Ginsberg about death. At the time we had a mutual

friend in New York who was very close to death, and so we exchanged

ideas. "Here is something I learned from Kerouac," said Allen. "You

could live, and that would be good, or you could die, and that would

be good too."

 

Ti Jean. John L. Kerouac. March 12, 1922 - October 21, 1969. He

Honored Life. There was a small photograph of John Coltrane on the

gravestone, and a handwritten poem, two bottles of Tequila, an

American flag, three formal flower arrangements, and a single piece of

a jigsaw puzzle. One student left behind a check cashing card issued

by a local supermarket, and another left behind a boquet of flowers.

As we were leaving, another student reached down to turn over the

puzzle piece. It was a piece of blue sky.

 

"Did I create that sky? Yes, for if it was anything other than a

conception in my mind I wouldn't have said 'Sky'--That is why I am the

golden eternity. There are not two of us here, reader and writer, but

one, one golden eternity, One-Which-It-Is, That-Which Everything-Is."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:56:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Beat-l (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:35:23 -0400 (EDT)

From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CapAccess.org>

To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Cc: Beat-L@cunym.cuny.edu

Subject: Re: Beat-l

 

 

This is the email I got from Mr. Gargan off the list this morning.

 

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> 

> Mr. Wallner, if you would like to start your own list, please feel free.

> In terms of Beat-l, I will decide what topics are or are not

> appropriate for discussion and what guidelines will be used to govern

> such discussion.

 

> the discussion of Kerouac's estate are unacceptable on the Beat-l list.

> If they continue, I will change this list to a moderated list, where I

> will review all posts before letting them go out to the list or I will

> shut the list down completely.  Have a good evening.

> 

 

 

Who is Mr. Gargan to say we cant discuss the Estate battle?  To threaten

to change this to a moderated conf just so he can block this

discussion...this stinks, no matter how good ajob GArgan has done in the

past.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:03:34 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat-l (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

please richard, shut up and stop taking yourself so seriously. this temper

tantrum is unseemly.

marie countryman

 

Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------

> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:35:23 -0400 (EDT)

> From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CapAccess.org>

> To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Cc: Beat-L@cunym.cuny.edu

> Subject: Re: Beat-l

> 

> This is the email I got from Mr. Gargan off the list this morning.

> 

> On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> >

> > Mr. Wallner, if you would like to start your own list, please feel free.

> > In terms of Beat-l, I will decide what topics are or are not

> > appropriate for discussion and what guidelines will be used to govern

> > such discussion.

> 

> > the discussion of Kerouac's estate are unacceptable on the Beat-l list.

> > If they continue, I will change this list to a moderated list, where I

> > will review all posts before letting them go out to the list or I will

> > shut the list down completely.  Have a good evening.

> >

> 

> Who is Mr. Gargan to say we cant discuss the Estate battle?  To threaten

> to change this to a moderated conf just so he can block this

> discussion...this stinks, no matter how good ajob GArgan has done in the

> past.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:20:26 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022160541.604A@cap1.capaccess.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> Mr. Gargan, you do not own the individual email addresses of everyone on

> this list.  Go ahead and shut it down.  You cant stop the members of this

> list from collectivley communicating with each other.

> So shut it down.  I have archives of this list, I can put together a list

> of all the addresses and start it back up almost as fast as you can kill

> it.   The only difference is that I would never consider mysef more than

> just another participant.  I wouldnt bully people off the list, threaten

> others or claim the right to determine which subject matter is appropriate.

>   This list exsists because of the people on it.  You can change the

> forwarding address.  You cant kill it, not as long as we want it to go on.

> since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it.  Period.

> RJW

richard (RJW);

what are trying to do? i dont understand. just when we have almost

overcome (?) a bout of nastiness and general disruptiveness on the list,

you have begun to become rather vehement and confrontational. pls - put yr

angst on hold. many of us are very happy with the management of beat-L and

the way that Bill Gargan has handled himself.

        pls dont think that you speak for the majority of readers - or if

nothing else - pls dont think that you speak for me or my concerns, as i

disagree with your position completely.

        i remain

        just another beat-L member

                derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:46:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Safe in Heaven Dead

In-Reply-To:  <344E25A8.27AE@middlesex.cc.ma.us>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Brian Foye wrote:

 

> Greetings from Lowell, Massachusetts! I've been on the list for a

> while, but this is my first post.

 

[snip]

 

Thank you for the great Kerouac memorial story. Please post more often.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:06:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022160541.604A@cap1.capaccess.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it.  Period.

> 

>RJW

 

Richard,

 

I think I feel as strongly about this list as you do, but you must

understand that you are wrong. We own our addresses ONLY IF WE OWN THE

DOMAIN. For example, you are at @CAPACCESS.ORG. It's the domain of a

non-profit organization. It's possible that you are the incorporator of

that corp. If you are, you own your address. If you are not, you do not.

 

(Actually a lawyer might pop in here and tell us that a non-profit

corporation might have restrictions on the OWNERSHIP of the domain name.)

 

The Beat List is owned by Gargon. When he says he has a right to shut it

down he really does. Shutting it down would not affect your address or mine

or anyone's. It's simply that he can do with the list what he wants.

 

Gratefully, he seems to be a person that will not be flexing his "shutdown

muscles" to prove his point.

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:08:52 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sarah Sage <yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      reply problem

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Marie, my dad tried to explain the problem to me, but he was unsuccessful

in doing so, therefore I don't understand why the problem exists, but a

solution is

when replying to something I've written you have to send it to beat-l and

can't just press the reply button b/c it will go to me only.

 

Sarah

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:18:15 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jjdorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

i agree with derek...

 

i'm wondering myself how many readers of these posts and members of this list

have really taken the time to read Kerouac's words...

 

you know what Kerouac would say about this list...about the name calling and

bad karma...i'm hearing "my" Kerouac now...and he's saying   "later for

this...these people have nothing for me..."

 

some of you know who i am...some don't.  in all my years of researching

Kerouac, i've never read such nonsense.   yeah yeah i know...then sign off,

right?

 let's share our love of jack...nothing more.

 

ok... now you can all tell me to go to hell.

 

john j dorfner

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:18:16 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine also

Comments: cc: rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Richard Wallner wrote

> 

>Who is Mr. Gargan to say we cant discuss the Estate battle?  To threaten

>to change this to a moderated conf just so he can block this

>discussion...this stinks, no matter how good ajob GArgan has done in the

>past.

> 

                                October 22, 1997

Dear Beat-L folks and Mr. Gargan:

        Frankly, this concerns me too.  It concerns me that a gang of four

can blast somebody they don't like, to the point where that person responds

in anger, and then suddenly the topic is taboo and the person they blasted

can no longer speak about it.

        Think of the consequences of that.

        We saw the consequences of that last May.

        Last May, I got off the list, but the discussion of the Estate

didn't stop.  It just came back from another perspective, with Mr. Maher

making posts all summer about the benevolence of Mr. Sampas, and Mr.

Hemenway promoting his John Sampas-approved Kerouac Week, etc.  So the guys

who drove me off the list got to speak about the estate anyway, once I was gone.

        Please, also, Mr. Gargan, when you go to point the finger at me as

"equally bad," consider this:  I knew about Mr. Maher's pro-Sampas postings

during the summer--they were forwarded to me by other people.  But I did not

immediately jump back on the list to denounce him for various crimes he

supposedly committed.  But within two hours of my making a post about my

Florida legal victory, a week ago, Mr. Maher jumped in to denounce me in

very scathing fashion, followed soon afterward by Mr. Chaput, Mr. Gyenis,

and Mr. Hemenway.

        It was not just name-calling, but it was accusations concerning my

professional competence and my honesty.  These are very damaging things to a

person who operates in the academic/literary world as I do.  Was I supposed

to just let it go, and let the 290 people on the Beat List assume that I

indeed misuse university materials, deal with the Beats and Kerouac only for

profit, and have as my heart's desire the destruction of the Kerouac

Archive?  Those were serious charges against me, not just as an ordinary

guy, but as a biographer, archivist, and literary executor.  A response was

called for, and I don't think that response, even if a little hotter than it

should have been, should be used as a reason for censoring the Beat-List.

        You can bet if I get off the List, or am blocked from it, that these

same 4 guys will be back soon to talk about their Sampas-approved Kerouac

projects, and how Mr. Sampas will soon put the archive into a major library,

etc.  And since no one will be around to contest them, it will all be

sweetness and light.  But does the lack of conflict and heated rhetoric mean

that truth and justice have been served?  I don't think so.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:17:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Bill Gargen

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bill:

 

Thanks for your very kind and informative post.

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:10:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine also

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>        You can bet if I get off the List, or am blocked from it, that these

>same 4 guys will be back soon to talk about their Sampas-approved Kerouac

>projects, and how Mr. Sampas will soon put the archive into a major library,

>etc.  And since no one will be around to contest them, it will all be

>sweetness and light.  But does the lack of conflict and heated rhetoric mean

>that truth and justice have been served?  I don't think so.

>        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

> 

And remember to go to:

 

 

     http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

        A free sample of The Kerouac Quarterly is available for you!!!!

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:51:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

Subject:      Re: patriotism

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Yes, yes, yes. I like the Kerouac kind of patriot. He was in love with

America. I also like that he didn't let Washington's shortcomings deter him

from his most brilliant style: American Romanticism. Ginsberg had a much

more protestic way. This is not a fault, but I do think that Ginsberg,

later in his life, devoted to many poems to the police, government, etc. I

like the idea of a Free Artist; loyal to the individual cause, not letting

governors influence your work. I don't know. (smile)

 

----------

> From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: patriotism

> Date: Sunday, September 21, 1997 6:48 PM

> 

> Happy last day of summer!

> I can't help but feel that the Beats, particularly Ginsberg and Kerouac,

> have strong adherence to America. Ginsberg refers to the America, "where

> we hug and kiss the United States under our bedsheets, the United States

> who coughs all night and won't let us sleep" (Howl, pt. 3). The love is

> qualified, but it can hardly be stated more directly. _On the Road_ often

> seems like a Valentine to America and its people (other than the

> "slopjaws" of Washington and the police). We also need to remember

> Kerouac's first meeting with Kesey, where Jack, invited to sit on a

> flag-covered sofa, folded up the flag in careful boy-scout fashion.

> Perhaps the essence of the conflict here can best be addressed by George

> Orwell, in a sadly neglected essay "Notes on Nationalism":

> "By 'nationalism' I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human

> beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions

or

> tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled 'good' or 'bad.'

> But secondly--and this is much more important--I mean the habit of

> identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond

> good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its

> interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words

> are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be

> challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two

> different and even opposing ideas are involved. By 'patriotism' I mean

> devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one

> believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other

> people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and

> culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the

desire

> for power."

> In these terms, the Beats, particularly Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Corso, are

> patriotic, but not nationalistic.

> Does this make sense?

> Cordially,

> Michael Skau

> 9/21/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:23:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      aaauuhgghhh

 

john,

don't go to hell.

you have a good point.

but as far as the state battle goes- hey, maybe this IS the place for it.

we have the option of NOT reading any email that pops up in the inbox.

yes, someone owns the list. no, noone is making anyone read any of their

mail.  yes, it seems to have gotten out of hand at times, that's when we

all need to act like the adults we pretend to be and use our judgement to

dismiss certain things some people say as being reactionary.

thats my 2 cents worth.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:31:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  <2012d722.344e7b7f@aol.com>

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> 

> you know what Kerouac would say about this list...about the name calling and

> bad karma...i'm hearing "my" Kerouac now...and he's saying   "later for

> this...these people have nothing for me..."

> 

 

Actually, apparently the one english language word Jack Kerouac despised

more than any other, was "tact", and he wouldnt have thought much of

"apporpriateness" either.  I met a man last year who knew Kerouac and

went out drinking with him in the old days in NYC.  He said Kerouac

*loved* to argue, that noone could outargue him or convince him to stop

if he didnt think the argument had run its course.

 

I believe that Jack Kerouac would have told Nicosia and the Lowell Gang

to go at it.  To let the fur fly.  To hell with decorum and what anyone

else thinks.  Kerouac's whole life stood for honesty and NOT hiding

behind societal standards.  Jack believed in pure, unfettered emotion, in

not holding *anything* back, because if you do, you are lying to yourself

and everyone else.

 

My quarrel with Bill Gargan is not over whether he "owns" the list

really, because that is semantical and a matter of opinion.  But over his

use of authoritianism, his threats to stifle debate.  Gargan is proving

that he is not Beat, because the core of the beat ethic is in always

questioning authority, always questioning decorum.

 

This (estate) quarrel is topical as hell for this list, and Jack Kerouac

wouldnt have wanted anyone taking the gloves off.    He loved a good

fight more than anything.  Thats why he was such great friends with

Ginsberg and Burroughs.    They loved to argue.  And they didnt back off

from their opinions.  Not ever.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:36:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Safe in Heaven Dead

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Brian Foye wrote:

> The conversation was about Kerouac, but in the cemetery it was hard

> not to think of Ginsberg's recent passing. Once, over dinner in

> Lowell, I spoke with Ginsberg about death. At the time we had a mutual

> friend in New York who was very close to death, and so we exchanged

> ideas. "Here is something I learned from Kerouac," said Allen. "You

> could live, and that would be good, or you could die, and that would

> be good too."

 

Brian, thanks for sharing this.  "You could live, and that would be good,

or you could die, and that would be good too" is an incredibly powerful

statement.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:26:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  <v0300780eb073e0dad2f2@[156.46.45.137]>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, jo grant wrote:

 

> 

> The Beat List is owned by Gargon. When he says he has a right to shut it

> down he really does. Shutting it down would not affect your address or mine

> or anyone's. It's simply that he can do with the list what he wants.

> 

> Gratefully, he seems to be a person that will not be flexing his "shutdown

> muscles" to prove his point.

> 

By your logic Jo, this list is in fact owned by city University of New

YOrk, since the domain is CUNY.EDU

 

It doesnt matter anyway, the issue is control and Mr. Gargan canno

control this list in the manner he wishes.  If he chooses to block

Nicosia's posts or the L:owell gang's posts on censorship grounds, they

can easily forward their posts to me or a dozen other people on this list

who would post for them.  Or they can re-subscribe with other email

addresses.

 

Gargan can make this a"moderated" list, but that would just cause hi a

lot of grief, because every time he blocked a post, he'd catch hell and

someone else would try to post it.  He'd end up spending all his time

polkccing the list and he'd be miserable.

 

He could shut down the list, but some one of us would restart it.  It is

a worthwhile list and doesnt deserve to be killed by a powerhungry

would-be moderator.

 

All I'm saying is that Mr. Gargan should drop it and let these posts

continue..dont try to moderate or control what cant be moderated or

controlled reasonably.  Just sit back and watch the debate, and if you

cant stomach it Mr. Gargan, just hit delete.

 

RJW

 

(and I do appreciate the list and the work you have put into it, make no

mistake..I dont mean this to be personal Mr. Gargan)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:14:47 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat-l (fwd)

Content-Type: text/plain

 

     Not that I think that Gragan is right in making these ultimatums,

but certainly any message sent not on the group was NOT meant for the

group to see.  Posting his message, NO MATTER WHAT THE CONTENT, was

simply not ethical in my eyes.

     Please people, let it drop unless you don't care about the

decimation of BEAT-L.

A VERY worried,

Keith

 

>This is the email I got from Mr. Gargan off the list this morning.

> 

>On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

>> 

>> Mr. Wallner, if you would like to start your own list, please feel

free.

>> In terms of Beat-l, I will decide what topics are or are not

>> appropriate for discussion and what guidelines will be used to govern

>> such discussion.

> 

>> the discussion of Kerouac's estate are unacceptable on the Beat-l

list.

>> If they continue, I will change this list to a moderated list, where

I

>> will review all posts before letting them go out to the list or I

will

>> shut the list down completely.  Have a good evening.

>> 

> 

> 

>Who is Mr. Gargan to say we cant discuss the Estate battle?  To

threaten

>to change this to a moderated conf just so he can block this

>discussion...this stinks, no matter how good ajob GArgan has done in

the

>past.

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:43:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> Mr wallner:

> you do not own this list. bill gargan owns this list. i am beyond

> irritated by your whining.

> go start your own damned list

> i like this list

> i like bill gargan

> i like my friends on this list

> i think bill does a great job. he owns this list. this is NOT a

> newsgroup or bulletin board.

> if you can't stop your whining then leave.

> and if you have been on this list for some time, you would know that i

> have never said this to anyone before.

> but i am fed up.

> go away. find some friends. get a life. get some manners. the universe

> does not owe you one goddamned thing. life is what we make it. we  make

> our own karma. yours is going down the proverbial toilet as i type.

> (sorry bill but i am rip shit by now)

> marie countryman

 

Marie, this is an absolute masterpiece!  I heartily agree!

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:26:34 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Woah Nellie,

 

     If you want this dispute to end why are you perpetuating it through

posting this affront?  Do you really think two wrongs make a right?

Come on, all it comes down to is who is going to be the better person.

getting pretty damn disgusted at BOTH sides,

Keith

 

 

>> Mr. Gargan, you do not own the individual email addresses of everyone

on

>> this list.  Go ahead and shut it down.  You cant stop the members of

this

>> list from collectivley communicating with each other.

>> So shut it down.  I have archives of this list, I can put together a

list

>> of all the addresses and start it back up almost as fast as you can

kill

>> it.   The only difference is that I would never consider mysef more

than

>> just another participant.  I wouldnt bully people off the list,

threaten

>> others or claim the right to determine which subject matter is

appropriate.

>>   This list exsists because of the people on it.  You can change the

>> forwarding address.  You cant kill it, not as long as we want it to

go on.

>> since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it.  Period.

>> RJW

>richard (RJW);

>what are trying to do? i dont understand. just when we have almost

>overcome (?) a bout of nastiness and general disruptiveness on the

list,

>you have begun to become rather vehement and confrontational. pls - put

yr

>angst on hold. many of us are very happy with the management of beat-L

and

>the way that Bill Gargan has handled himself.

>        pls dont think that you speak for the majority of readers - or

if

>nothing else - pls dont think that you speak for me or my concerns, as

i

>disagree with your position completely.

>        i remain

>        just another beat-L member

>                derek

> 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:43:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      What about the $%^&ing literature?!

In-Reply-To:  <344E1F0E.250D@together.net>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

My God, people... if you really need arguing and strife and idiocy like

this, watch Melrose Place. Let's get back to what we're all on this damn

list for: THE BEATS!!!!!

 

                         Sara Feustle

                    sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

                      Cronopio, cronopio?

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:53:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 60's Counterculture

In-Reply-To:  <3e676882.344e391f@aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Jennifer,

You might want to look particularly at Roszak's _The Making of a Counter

Culture_, an excellent book of analysis that seems perfect for your

assignment.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

10/22/97

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Sundstrom0 wrote:

 

> For my class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper

> on an aspect of the sixties.  I want to do something on the Beat Generation,

> however, it has to be more than a literary paper.

> Does anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on

> 60's Counterculture??

> Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

> Thanks...

> 

> jennifer

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:01:09 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine also

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:18:16 -0700 from

              <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

 

Gerry, I have no desire to throw you or anyone else off the list.  It

troubles me that a discussion of the estate generally leads to what I

consider to be mudslinging.  However, if you wish to continue this

battle you have to realize that I can't be a policeman.   I can't take

the responsibility of protecting you from libel, slander, or

mean-spiritedness.    If you're willing to accept this, go ahead and

discuss the estate battle to your heart's content.  I'll simply press

the delete key and urge others on the list to do the same.  Fair enough?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:05:14 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Bill Gargan

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I would like to say that I think Bill is doing an outstanding job as owner

of this list. He takes a lot of shit from both sides. I don't think this

list would have ever been censored except that someone threatened to sue

the list (a first).  When that happened Bill realized things were getting

out of hand. The reason that happened was that the person complained

because personal correspondence had been posted to the list for all to see

(not good!). That's when Bill took action which was to ban certain people

from posting to the list. He stopped me from posting anything to the list

back then, not because I posted private correspondence which started this

censorship deal in the first place but because I swore and used derogatory

terminology (I was a bad boy). This was only inflaming that person and the

situation. I couldn't post on any subject. I did not cry and whine to the

folks on the beat-l. I just accepted it with disapproval (To Bill) and

waited in the corner for a week with my dunce cap on. Paul Maher was also

stopped from posting as I was even though he was not the one who posted

personal correspondence either.  After about a week I was posting again as

was Paul. So folks Gerry is not being singled out if anything Bill has gone

out of his way to let him keep talking about his endeavors. I realized he

had no choice. I think one reason we all are so emotional about this is

that we love Jack and when you love someone all your emotions run high.

Personally I don't believe in censorship as my past FUCK CENSORSHIP post

will attest. But if that lawsuit had been actually started we would all be

typing to a blank screen now and none of this would really matter. There

would be no list! So Bill really had no choice. Give him a break. He's

really a cool dude. And yes he is beat! Three cheers for Bill.

    I haven't posted about this estate thing for almost a week at Bill's

and others request and I don't want to start another flame war with this

post (please) but I absolutely had to clear this up about Bill Gargan. Phil

Chaput

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:09:41 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

Content-Type: text/plain

 

go to heaven

> 

>ok... now you can all tell me to go to hell.

> 

>john j dorfner

> 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:13:33 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

 

Richard, quite frankly, i'm finding your diatribe quite tiresome.  put a sock

in it.

 

this list can only remain so long as Bill allows it to be run on CUNY's

server.  i believe Bill teaches at the University and is therefore it's

representative.  he has every right in the world to delete it.  none of us

would have found each other without it and should it go away, random people

from around the world would never find us nor we them.

 

there is nothing to prevent anyone here from carrying on private dialog

through backchannelling.  that is the appropriate place for many, many posts -

particularly those of a personal nature.  people can have at each other all

they want, backchannel.  there is a small group of us as a sideline to this

list doing a group read of "Ulysses".  we have set up our own distribution

list as our posts have nothing to do with Beat-l.

 

i don't want to have to select a list of 290 people and have that huge amount

of space taken up just by list names on my hard drive in my address book and

each and every time i post or receive a post.  nor have i the time for

something like that.  and that isn't even the point.  when you go to work or

shopping or the movies or get together with friends, do you expose those

around you to your personal feuds?  do you want others to do that to you?

 

i think the matters of the estate are of great concern to this group.

however, i don't believe personal vendettas have anything to do with it.  and

i don't want to find myself dragged emotionally into those corners.  i care

deeply about what happens to JK's estate and want to know the reality of the

situation, not who thinks what of whom - which is completely irrelevant to the

estate.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Richard Wallner

Sent:   Wednesday, October 22, 1997 5:26 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Who owns this list?

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, jo grant wrote:

 

> 

> The Beat List is owned by Gargon. When he says he has a right to shut it

> down he really does. Shutting it down would not affect your address or mine

> or anyone's. It's simply that he can do with the list what he wants.

> 

> Gratefully, he seems to be a person that will not be flexing his "shutdown

> muscles" to prove his point.

> 

By your logic Jo, this list is in fact owned by city University of New

YOrk, since the domain is CUNY.EDU

 

It doesnt matter anyway, the issue is control and Mr. Gargan canno

control this list in the manner he wishes.  If he chooses to block

Nicosia's posts or the L:owell gang's posts on censorship grounds, they

can easily forward their posts to me or a dozen other people on this list

who would post for them.  Or they can re-subscribe with other email

addresses.

 

Gargan can make this a"moderated" list, but that would just cause hi a

lot of grief, because every time he blocked a post, he'd catch hell and

someone else would try to post it.  He'd end up spending all his time

polkccing the list and he'd be miserable.

 

He could shut down the list, but some one of us would restart it.  It is

a worthwhile list and doesnt deserve to be killed by a powerhungry

would-be moderator.

 

All I'm saying is that Mr. Gargan should drop it and let these posts

continue..dont try to moderate or control what cant be moderated or

controlled reasonably.  Just sit back and watch the debate, and if you

cant stomach it Mr. Gargan, just hit delete.

 

RJW

 

(and I do appreciate the list and the work you have put into it, make no

mistake..I dont mean this to be personal Mr. Gargan)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:33:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine also

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>        You can bet if I get off the List, or am blocked from it, that

these same 4 guys will be back soon to talk about their Sampas-approved Kerouac

>projects...

 

*****As it is my right to do so...The Kerouac Quarterly is not condoned,

supported, financed, "approved," by the Estate of Jack Kerouac, they do

happen to enjoy its contents. Despite your misgivings about this Mr.Nicosia,

it is most prudent to pass a project by the Estate as a gesture of common

courtesy since the subject of the said project is being put on display. Now

this may be your practice but then again...this is you we are talking about.

 

*****Now, I may have to confess an error...did I say Columbia U. had letters

stolen? No. The letters were used from Newberry College in upstate New York

and are clearly stamped "For scholarly use only - Not for Sale" or something

very close to that effect. It certainly didn't say to sell them as part of

an "archive". They were meant to be used and returned...that is common

practice with research materials. I saw the stamped letters at John Sampas'

house. Yes I did. I needed similar items for my own book. He has every

letter from the Memory Babe collection that was penned by and to Jack

Kerouac and also from every major library in the country that houses a

Kerouac archive.

 

*****Let me remind you of something...the "poisoned hand" comment is direct

from John Sampas. interpret as such: immature, imprudent,

inflammatory...whatever, but don't orate your ragtime without sticking with

the facts. A comment from one person does not dictate the mindset of another.

 

 

and how Mr. Sampas will soon put the archive into a major library,

 

*****maybe he will maybe he won't but ther is nothing to say he never will

like you claim.

 

 And since no one will be around to contest them, it will all>sweetness and

light.

***Those were the days my friend...

 

  But does the lack of conflict and heated rhetoric mean

>that truth and justice have been served?  I don't think so.

 

No it just means that Gerry Nicosia hasn't been in a courtroom for a while.

 

 

>        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

       And even more respectfully, Paul Maher Junior

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:16:31 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bill Gargan

 

Phil - i noted your self-control and appreciate it.

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Phil Chaput

Sent:   Wednesday, October 22, 1997 6:05 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Bill Gargan

 

I would like to say that I think Bill is doing an outstanding job as owner

of this list. He takes a lot of shit from both sides. I don't think this

list would have ever been censored except that someone threatened to sue

the list (a first).  When that happened Bill realized things were getting

out of hand. The reason that happened was that the person complained

because personal correspondence had been posted to the list for all to see

(not good!). That's when Bill took action which was to ban certain people

from posting to the list. He stopped me from posting anything to the list

back then, not because I posted private correspondence which started this

censorship deal in the first place but because I swore and used derogatory

terminology (I was a bad boy). This was only inflaming that person and the

situation. I couldn't post on any subject. I did not cry and whine to the

folks on the beat-l. I just accepted it with disapproval (To Bill) and

waited in the corner for a week with my dunce cap on. Paul Maher was also

stopped from posting as I was even though he was not the one who posted

personal correspondence either.  After about a week I was posting again as

was Paul. So folks Gerry is not being singled out if anything Bill has gone

out of his way to let him keep talking about his endeavors. I realized he

had no choice. I think one reason we all are so emotional about this is

that we love Jack and when you love someone all your emotions run high.

Personally I don't believe in censorship as my past FUCK CENSORSHIP post

will attest. But if that lawsuit had been actually started we would all be

typing to a blank screen now and none of this would really matter. There

would be no list! So Bill really had no choice. Give him a break. He's

really a cool dude. And yes he is beat! Three cheers for Bill.

    I haven't posted about this estate thing for almost a week at Bill's

and others request and I don't want to start another flame war with this

post (please) but I absolutely had to clear this up about Bill Gargan. Phil

Chaput

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:18:21 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine also

 

Bill - you're one hell of a guy!  sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Bill Gargan

Sent:   Wednesday, October 22, 1997 6:01 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine also

 

Gerry, I have no desire to throw you or anyone else off the list.  It

troubles me that a discussion of the estate generally leads to what I

consider to be mudslinging.  However, if you wish to continue this

battle you have to realize that I can't be a policeman.   I can't take

the responsibility of protecting you from libel, slander, or

mean-spiritedness.    If you're willing to accept this, go ahead and

discuss the estate battle to your heart's content.  I'll simply press

the delete key and urge others on the list to do the same.  Fair enough?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:20:36 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:13:33 UT from

              <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

Sherri is right.  The backchannel is a good way for a several members to

continue a thread that is of special interest to them.  People

interested in the Estate thread might be able to continue the discussion

with less rancor.  The rhetoric tends to heat up when one is playing to

a large audience.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:43:22 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: What about the $%^&ing literature?!

Content-Type: text/plain

 

AMEN

 

 

>My God, people... if you really need arguing and strife and idiocy like

>this, watch Melrose Place. Let's get back to what we're all on this

damn

>list for: THE BEATS!!!!!

> 

>                         Sara Feustle

>                    sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

>                      Cronopio, cronopio?

> 

> 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:45:18 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine also

Content-Type: text/plain

 

This is a good start.  The argument has run itself out.  Don't beat it

into the ground.  PLEASE

keith

 

 

>Gerry, I have no desire to throw you or anyone else off the list.  It

>troubles me that a discussion of the estate generally leads to what I

>consider to be mudslinging.  However, if you wish to continue this

>battle you have to realize that I can't be a policeman.   I can't take

>the responsibility of protecting you from libel, slander, or

>mean-spiritedness.    If you're willing to accept this, go ahead and

>discuss the estate battle to your heart's content.  I'll simply press

>the delete key and urge others on the list to do the same.  Fair

enough?

> 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:46:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      What is going on in the world of mail lists

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Celtic list:  The Celtics finally won a game.  Big trade of someone who

was just acquired.  I predicted a trade last Sunday or Monday.  I look

good there.

 

Hendrix list:  Discussion similiar to estate.  There are many on the

list who dislike Hendrix's step-sister and what she is doing to market

Jimi.  Coffee tables, golf ball, All Along the Watchtower sold to

Baseball ads, etc.  The other subject is the "new" Hendrix album, South

Saturn Delta.

 

Dylan list:  Discussion of new album (If you like Bob Dylan's Blues, you

NEED this album now, it is great!) and whether or not Dylan has

"repudiated Christianity.  (This discussion is worse than the estate

battle.

 

Byrds newsgroup:  Discussion of a 12 string Rickenbaker that a poster

owns.  He is obsessed with whether or not Roger McGuinn has "lied" about

a certain 12 String that is hanging in the RnR Hall of Fame.  He claims

he owns it.  Also, discussion of whether the Guess Who stole a Byrds

song for Undun.

 

Track and field:  The Chinese women, who failed to place at the World

Championships, are breaking all kinds of world records at a national

meet.  They have 3 or 4 people at a time running better than 20 seconds

than their best.  Is it real?  Short track?  What?  And should cross

country results be posted on the track and field list?

 

Johnny Winter list.  New pictures of Johnny and his guitars.  How is

Johnny's health?  Where is he touring?

 

Jerry Jeff Walker list.   Well, someone on the list was insulted by JJW

after a show the other night and she dissed Jacky Jack the next day.

She is being blown away.  Next show, Rockerfellers is closing and

reservations are being made for the Birthday Bash in March.

 

Let's see, there is one other list I am on, but I can't seem to remember

a whole lot that is relevant there.  If you are on that list, maybe you

might want to see if any of these lists have an appeal to you.  What was

that list, uhhh, oh yeah.  It is the beat lit list.

 

I sure do miss Charles Plymell.  What about you guys?

 

That is all.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:56:14 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      How about this topic, discuss it amongst yourselves.

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I believe we should open a new thread.  It is on the internet/www

phenomenon.  It should be a comparison about how very intelligent people

can lose all sense of perspective when one of two things happens, they

get cut off in traffic (or someone drives into a parking place they have

been waiting on) or when they get mad or emotional about a thread on a

mail list.  I believe these ideas are comparable and that they can lead

us directly to the collective unconscious mind and how it affects mail

list behavior and traffic.  For instance, we could delve into how do you

"feel" someone staring at you at a trafffic light, and how do you know

when someone has "insulted" you in a fashion that will lead to a duel by

making a post to the mail list.

 

I think that we could even discuss the quality of the midi file of "Take

Five" on Keith's site.  Is it real jass, or is it Sear's jazz?  What

would Jack think about it?

 

Well the list of topics is endless and I really did suggest a collection

or works, Big Sky Mind for discussion.  Is anyone interested?  I suggest

we start with Harold Norse's poems as they are good and there are only

about three.

 

Just a thought.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:29:58 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      people of autumn (apocalypsis)

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997102019511559@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                        beatus, qui legit,

                bill works well

                        et audit verba prophetie huius:

                but the ''word'' owner perhaps disturbs

                        et servat ea,

                the legend of duluoz

                        in ea scripta sunt:

                compilation copyright (c)

                the estate of stella kerouac, john sampas,

                literary representative; and jan kerouac 1995

                        tempus enim prope est.

                peo

                ple

                of

                aut

                umn     Apocalypsis     best before the date

                indicated on the can end        DIDN'T

                YOU EVER read THIS BEFORE?

                                                        who

                                                        do you

                                                        take

                                                        me for?

 

---

Rinaldo

23th oct 1097

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:44:19 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      my apologies, bob

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> 

> yes cathie- the thought of using the list to discuss beat issues has

> crossed my mind once or twice.  i'm surpised it's not called beat-l or

> something crazy like that.

> no need to take offense cathie,or anyone else i may have offended. just

> trying to make light of a situation that some of us aren't involved in.

> (not downplaying the importance- this issue means a helluva lot to many

> people- anyone concerned with kerouac, in fact)

> and thats all i gotta say bout that.

 

 

 

Bob,

 

 

I know the main reason for this lists existence is the discussion of

beat literature, but i just thought i would throw my two cents in and

ask people to introduce themselves first, just a few lines to give me a

clue about their characters.  Kind of like when you enter a room full of

people you don't know, you say who you are and possibly things like what

you do for a living, you know, the standard introduction fare.  Instead

i find myself in the midst of people who love to argue, and without

knowing why they want to argue, i can't argue with them.  (Did that make

any sense???) I may have misconstrued your comment to marie about the

personal issues, but i feel better now having read tonight's digest and

seeing a few people actually introducing themselves.  NOW i feel i can

talk, because i've met some people.  So lets talk, bob.

 

Bob, i'd like to find a copy of pull my daisy.  Can you help????

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:24:22 +0900

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat

In-Reply-To:  <971018160555_1767934263@emout04.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

brian writes (last saturday--I haven't had a chance to get at the computer,

but wanted to respond)

 

>hi......

> 

>i'm an eighteen year-old college student just introduced to the world of jack

>kerouac and the beat genre........

> 

>it's been truly interesting to listen to these feuds about jack's estate and

>all, each side of the "debate", such and such.......but.......

> 

>since people like me, and i am sure there are more like me, are not too in

>tune with the whole beat atmosphere; perhaps as a couple of side e-mails

>people could take off of these bloodbaths against each other and get back to

>the heart of the literature...

> 

>i, for one, would be interested in knowing everybody's favorite beat books,

>songs, quotations, etc........the lit. itself, the authors

>themselves.........it's obvious that a good deal of people attached to this

>mailing list are more knowledgeable than i am, so it'd be nice to hear

>feedback from all of you......

 

"Ahem...." (taps two times on the microphone--a short screech of feedback

fans open and fades out) "Is this thing on?"

 

Favorite

Beat Book(s):   Doctor Sax by Jack Kerouac

Beat Song       The Ghosts of Saturday Night by Tom Waits

                I Travelled Mostly on the Road by Herbert Hunke and Chuck

Prophet on the 10% File Under Burroughs CD, anything from Kicks Joy Darkness

Beat Quote      "Charlie Parker looked like Buddha."

 

> 

>some questions i would like to ask Each of you:

>what draws you to this genre?

>what is so important about it? in the role of america or the world?

>where is it headed, if anywhere?

>how have these authors and poets impacted your lives?

 

Feel drawn to this genre for a number of reasons one of them being the

quality/life/guts/vision/tenderness/youthfullness/horror and truth of the

writing

 

The genre itself is not so important--I mean, what is so important about

the picture frame holding "Guernica" in its four corners? It is the ideas

contained within, the sketches, the moments, what they captured that you

can relate to, you can almost taste the dust as another car blows by old

limping Jack, can't get a ride, in Big Sur, shared images, ...

 

Where is it headed? In about fifty different directions. I quess some will

become aquainted and contribute to its evolution through the written works.

Others might catch the bug from a movie or a CD collection a web page Gap

ad Johnny Depp reading Romibus or Beat-L or maybe even Mr. Feltsleeves

assigning The Railroad Earth for a weekend reading assignment. Where is IT

headed? Where are YOU headed? Any writing aspirations?

 

Has this writing CHANGED MY LIFE? Of course. What I had for lunch today

changed my life. The Indians winning Game Four of the World Series to even

up the series two apiece changed my life (an unapolgetic plug for the

Tribe--I'm from Northeast Ohio and've been waiting all my life, dear God).

By the way, were you aware of the baseball game Jack Kerouac had invented

as a child and had played all his life, very complicated system using

basball card stats and whatnot to play though a whole season of games.

Reminds me of similar creations and made-up sports concocted with older

brothers in long-ago golden afternoon freedoms. A-ha! This Beat literature

has HELPED ME REMEMBER the beauty and fun and wonder and adventure of

childhood. For God's sake, read Doctor Sax.

 

> 

>etc.....etc.......the trivial things that are the most important

>sometimes........otherwise, the legal mumbo jumbo will get old unless

>balanced with another topic....

 

Brian, yes, we need balance. Personally, I agree that the estate discussion

belongs on this list (where else?--untill there's a Jack Kerouac Estate

Discussion-L). I'm willing to choose what I want to read and respond to. I

thank you for your timely questions and welcome you (unofficially, of

course) to the genre.

 

:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::

Timothy Hoffman

Komaki English Teaching Center (KETC)

Komaki Shiminkaikan, KETC

2-107 Komaki

Komaki, Aichi 485

work (0568) 76-0905

fax (0568) 77-8207

home (0568)72-3549

timothy@gol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:18:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      A review of today's digest

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i'm going to waste a post before going to bed.

 

i replied to a few posts as i was reading the digest.  after my little

poem to Richard, however, i got caught up in reading today's digest as a

dark satire of the best of the beat-L.  every frailty came shining

through in full bloom and some of the best one liners mixed into various

monologues and diatribes.  And by the time I got to Bentz's two posts

with news from the other lists (b/c this list sure wasn't worth reading

today <grin>) and comparing today to getting mad in traffic i was

literally falling out of my chair.

 

once again i'll say to bad we take ourselves so seriously.

 

and i'll add that bill g. has the patience of job cubed.

 

p.s.  i had a flashback to when bill sent me a kindly letter about some

of my manic thoughts that were a bit adrift from the core of the list

and i took it to big table and ran it through the cut-up machine and

posted it!  I was just joking of course - but a decent thread did occur

about cut-ups as a result.  I don't know if anyone realized it was a

childish prank not the initiation of a thread.  don't think i ever

apologized for that one bill.  you certainly have the patience of job.

 

and i miss charley p. too -- but after reading today's digest the

question would be how much he misses us????

 

suddenly sombre,

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:14:04 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Richard Wallner wrote:

>My quarrel with Bill Gargan is not over whether he "owns" the list

>really, because that is semantical and a matter of opinion.  But over his

>use of authoritianism, his threats to stifle debate.  Gargan is proving

>that he is not Beat, because the core of the beat ethic is in always

>questioning authority, always questioning decorum.

> 

>This (estate) quarrel is topical as hell for this list, and Jack Kerouac

>wouldnt have wanted anyone taking the gloves off.    He loved a good

>fight more than anything.  Thats why he was such great friends with

>Ginsberg and Burroughs.    They loved to argue.  And they didnt back off

>from their opinions.  Not ever.

> 

 

        This is not to attack Bill Gargan or anyone else, but I do want to

say from all the hundreds of people I've interviewed who knew Kerouac,

Wallner is right.  Jack did love to argue, what Tom Livornese (his jazz

pianist friend) called "the contest of egos"--in fact Livornese told me Jack

would often promote these kind of contests between his friends, to watch

them go at it.  Maybe a bit of the voyeur in him, but also a desire to test

people, to see what they were really made of.  We know from his letters that

he was often going at it with Ginsberg, for sure.

        As for Bill Gargan, I accept your post tonight.  As I see it, the

Sampas contingent has put you in an untenable position.  They are determined

to jump on me the minute I speak about the estate, and you can't keep

putting dunce caps on them, blocking and unblocking them.  It would be nice

to see them start a SAMPAS-L of their own, but I'm sure they won't do that,

for the nonce.  So I'll just be content to post news when there is news, and

to answer real questions.  I'm not going to bother commenting on all their

continuing claims of my supposed professional misconduct.  My record of

contributing to Beat scholarship fills a resume four single-spaced pages

long--Mr. Maher can print it in his magazine, if he likes--and when one of

them can match it, or when one of them is singled out by the Washington Post

for exceptional scholarship, the way I was singled out a month ago, then

I'll begin to take their remarks seriously.

        Anyway, peace to everyone, and if we truly wish to honor Jack, let's

try to practice kindness.  Avalokitesvara, the Buddhist saint of kindness

and mercy, was his favorite.

        --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:06:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

 

Dear Bill Gargan:

I just wanted to openly thank you for all the work you've put into this list.

 I think most of the subscribers know that it hasn't been easy to do and many

appreciate your devotion to the list and the subject of Beat Literature.  If

you feel the need to turn off the lights and walk away from what appears to

be an unappreciative minority, I wouldn't blame you, you don't deserve the

aggravation.  You will continue to have my support, because I realize it is

your generosity and selfless dedication that has enabled Beat-L to exist.

Yours,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:54:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      SAMPAS-L

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:10 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>        You can bet if I get off the List, or am blocked from it, that these

>>same 4 guys will be back soon to talk about their Sampas-approved Kerouac

>>projects, and how Mr. Sampas will soon put the archive into a major library,

>>etc.  And since no one will be around to contest them, it will all be

>>sweetness and light.  But does the lack of conflict and heated rhetoric mean

>>that truth and justice have been served?  I don't think so.

>>        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

>> 

>And remember to go to:

> 

> 

>     http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

> 

>        A free sample of The Kerouac Quarterly is available for you!!!!

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

        James Stauffer suggested last nite that I hightail it to Estate-L.

Well, I'd like to go him one better.  If Mr. Maher, Mr. Chaput, Mr. Gyenis,

and Mr. Hemenway keep up their current volume of posts, we should perhaps

suggest they switch to a SAMPAS-L to lower the daily volume of messages we

all have to deal with.

        --Ralph Waldo Emerson

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:42:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Richard Wallner

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Richard.

 

a poem for you.

 

you are wrong

you are dead wrong

are you just joking?

hope so

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:40:59 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      sarah sage

MIME-Version: 1.0

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sarah,

 

welcome!!!  i didn't know squat about this subject when i joined this

list.  honest.  all i knew was that a bunch of people having read things

i'd written on napkins from time to time seemed certain that i knew all

about these beat folks.  so i joined it - on a lark i guess.

 

the main thing i've learned is that for the most part this is a really

bunch of fun people.  there are people on this list who i've written and

said -- i'm driving through your town and might be tired, can i crash at

your place -- and never having met me they say sure.  And we meet and

then i meet others and it is an odd connection which seems very much

"Johnson-ish" which is a concept that I have figured out and like a lot.

 

i doubt that we collectively have been great towards you or others new

to the list recently.  there are some buttons that get pushed that cause

a mutual spasm in which we all forget that we're for the most part

"Johnson's".

 

And believe it or not we sometimes even talk about beat writings!  I'm

really delving into Howl for real, trying to learn it, for the first

time.  I think it may take me more than a year.

 

And it seems fair to say that there are a number of people how "knew"

"the beats" and they seem to have survived the experience.  but

sometimes they are pretty humble about these interactions and seem to

prefer to just be regular folk.

 

welcome again,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:23:50 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: How about this topic, discuss it amongst yourselves.

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Well,

 

     In defence of my site I must say one thing.  It is a good song.

There is a real lack of bebop on the net, not to mention other related

materials.  If anyone has a better suggestion, I am open to comments.

The choice of Take Five was merely made WITHOUT artistic aesthetics in

mind.  As you can clearly see when you visit my site there is a large

picture that says under contruction.  These are the things that get

ironed out later.

     You can't build Rome in a day...  So please HELP ME!!!!!  I need to

know what YOU want there, after all my purpose it to create a site YOU

want to visit and post on.

     My site offers no bitterness, no quarelling, no accusations, just

original, creative, and I might add damn good works.  Please visit and

suggest a better(?) midi file!

Thank you

Keith

 

 

>I think that we could even discuss the quality of the midi file of

"Take

>Five" on Keith's site.  Is it real jass, or is it Sear's jazz?  What

>would Jack think about it?

 

> 

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:21:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Adrien Begrand's poem

MIME-Version: 1.0

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taking the digest form it would have been easy to miss adrien's poem the

first time through -- EXCEPT that it was so beautiful, so connected to

his spirit.

 

about ten times since reading it last night i've thought -- david, you

really ought to send a note about how you liked that poem by adrien.

then i'd say back - well what would i say but that i loved it.

 

tonight reading through the digest i see that some may have thought this

poem might have been lost in the cock-fights.

 

in my digest it was a definite gem that stood out shining through the

rest.

 

thanks adrien, i'm certain jack is thanking you too.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

p.s.  antoine, what hoboing stories???? <grin>

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:16:16 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bill Gargen

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Dear Bill,

 

Please ignore the babbling of Richard Wallner and Gerry Nicosia.  We

love this list.  If it means blocking a few folks who repeatedly violate

the hospitality of the list, so be it.  It would be a pity to lose this

vehicle, which means so much to so many of us, to the pique of Mr

Nicosia (who joins us only to flog his estate position ) and Mr. Wallner

(who doesn't seem to understand it).  They have been asked both on the

list and backchannel to take a break.  They refuse.  This is not a

matter of freespeech but a violation of rudimentary manners.

 

Appalled and frustrated,

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:40:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Binu Paulose <paulose@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>

Subject:      What we're supposed to be doing on this list

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I was disgusted by all the junk mail that came into my directory, all the

junk mail, of course, referring to this thing that is occurring on the

list.  I don't know what to call it, how about a mutiny???  All this stuff

about the estate of Jack Kerouac is fine, but I don't think that is what

we all should be discussing on THIS mailing list.  IF ANY OF YOU RECALL

THE PURPOSE OF THIS MAILING LIST, YOU MIGHT BE DISGUSTED BY THE JUNK MAIL

YOU'RE GETTING AS WELL.  I was so sick of it that I unsubscribed.

 

I am 19 years old, a sophomore attending SUNY @ Buffalo.  I'm not an

English major, but a Math major (why math? I don't know).  But still, I

gained a huge interest in learning SO much more about the Beat Generation

and finding out about what others think.  It's difficult when, among

friends, you're actually the only person who doesn't associate Kerouac

with GAP advertisements.  Over the summer, living in NYC, I had so many

problems with my family, that I would get out of the house, take the

F train to Bryant Park, and read "On the Road".  And there I felt so much

better and so enraptured by this other world of freedom, love, confusion,

and sadness.  I felt so much at home reading this, that this was where I

wanted to be.  To quote Kerouac (and I hope this is exact), "This was my

kind of girl soul," in that I wanted to be in this place forever.

 

>From reading "On the Road" (thank you God for bringing Jack into this

world, or rather thank you Memere), I wanted to find out so much more.  I

purchased "Selected Poems" by Allen Ginsberg w/ artwork by Eric Drooker

and "Book of Blues" by Kerouac.  Both are awesome.  Of course this isn't

much.  I wanted to learn more about the Beats and understand it further.

So I subscribed onto this list, and I got this message.  I'm sure all of

you received this message.  Anyway, this pretty much tells us the purpose

of this list:

 

 

 

Welcome to BEAT-L, an online discussion forum devoted to the study of

the lives and works of the writers of the Beat Generation, especially

Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and William Burroughs.  BEAT-L is an

unmoderated list open to anyone interested in the Beat Generation.

Scholars, writers, students, laymen -- all are welcome to join the

discussion and share their ideas.  In addition to providing an outlet

for discussion of Beat texts, the listserv is intended to facilitate

scholarly communication and to serve as a bulletin board or calendar

for poetry readings, announcements of new publications, upcoming

conferences and other Beat related events.

 

 

 

 

I hated that fact that for someone like me that I had to lose my (forgive me

for lack of a better word) purity of the Beats.  But I learned that I'm

not going to get away from this list because you people have to talk on

about this estate thing and flood directories.  Now I want to say right

now, that I don't hate any of you.  If this e-mail makes it sound like I

do, I'm sorry.  To Gerry Nicosia, Richard Wallner, Bill Gargan, and to

anyone else involved in the estate: I have nothing at all against you.

You're all good people.  This estate thing regarding Jack's letters and

anything else is a significant thing, I'll DEFINITELY grant you that.  But

also, I think we all should remember where we are right now.  We're on

this e-mail mailing list, for God's sake!  =)  And for the person in

charge of this list (hi Bill!), he has an important job to do.  We all

should respect that.  After all, if he hadn't created this list sooner, I

think, well, what I can really say?  I was on for about 4-5 days, and then

I unsubscribed.  But I'm back.

 

I heard also about an e-mail that Bill sent to one Richard Wallner, in

private.  It isn't right, of course, to have a moderated mailing list.

Where's the love, liberty, and pursuit of happiness in all of that?  I can

also understand why there's this "mutiny".  Again, Gerry's a good guy

(I'll look into 'Memory Babe') and he shouldn't be off this list.  But

again, we should remember where we are.

 

Thank you all for your time.

 

Binu Paulose

ICQ # 3292154

e-mail address: paulose@acsu.buffalo.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:21:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James J Stavola <JDSept@AOL.COM>

Subject:      BEAT WEB SITES

 

       About 8 or 9 days ago someone posted a great E-mail with numerous

great beat sites.Of course I manage to dump the letter somewhere in a moment

of late night madness and can't find it.I was having so much fun with it and

learned alot and am not too happy with myself for losing it.The person who

originally posted it or a copy would be greatly appreciated on this BEAT-LIST

or directly to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                                                        Thank

You

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                                               JDSEPT@AOL.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:26:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

 

In a message dated 97-10-22 14:26:42 EDT, you write:

 

<< n. And reecently i have been on the

 mission to order The Beat Generation trading cards by Tundra Press (i

 think its Tundra) which is a rare item to find but nevertheless something >>

 

Jason:

 

The Beat Generation trading cards by Jesse Crumb (son of R.) are published by

Kitchen Sink Press. You can order them from us here at Water Row Books (we

distribute Kitchen Sink stuff) - we also have great uncut trading card sheet

signed by artist Jesse Crumb and suitable for framing...contact me for more

details...

Thanks -

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

PO Box 438

Sudbury MA 01776

Tel 508-485-8515

fax 508-229-0885

email waterrow@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:48:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: How about this topic, discuss it amongst yourselves.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Why doesn't someone explain the history of this gigantic

feud over the estate.  The only thing good about it is that

it has increased traffic on the list.  How about an overview,

a discussion of the ancient roots of this rhubarb.  I had 139

messages in 24 hours and most of them were Beat -L but a lot of

us aren't that interested in the fight.  I haven't been in this

big a flame war since last summer when the oldest veterans on

alt.showbiz.gossip got into it over some old antipathies.  Eventually,

the furor died of the boredom it was producing.  I notice many

of the participants were so worn out, they no longer post to ASG.

Are some old vets returning to Beat-L after years of hibernation.

 

Please, would love to hear a history.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:05:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>

Subject:      Book Woman Returns

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I'm back, after a couple of months on the road, including a wonderful trip

to City Lights, where I would still be if my spousal unit had not insisted

I accompany him back home.

 

I bought the 40th Anniversary edition of On The Road and a copy of Some of

the Dharma.  Spent a lot of time just wandering around in the Beat section

of the store soaking up the vibes and wishing I had more money (and time)

to spend.  The kind gentleman behind the counter at City Lights stamped my

books with the store seal, and I bought a bookbag to carry them home.

 

Would have spent more time in North Beach, but it was raining hard.  Next

morning I decided I had to see Big Sur, so we took Highway 1 all the way

from San Jose to Los Angeles.  Stopped for lunch in Big Sur, and sat

outside on the porch of the resturant reading from The Sea....I'm still

looking for Mien Mo Mountain...someday!

 

 I didn't make it to Half Moon Bay (next trip) but I saw the most awesome

sunset of my life over Morro Bay...sun setting over the ocean, huge full

moon rising over the hills to the east, clear skies, Venus and Mars and

lots of stars.

 

Strangely,  as I stood on the shore at Morro Bay and looked out over the

Pacific, my heart kept saying "this is home".

 

Bodily, I'm back in Georgia.  Spiritually, a big chuck of me is still

wandering around between the books of City Lights and rocks of the

California coast.

 

It's been a most wonderful experience.

 

Judith

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:01:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Christian Brubaker <elevatortohell@MINDSPRING.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac t-shirts, anyone?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I was wondering if I could get a list with descriptions of the t-shirts of jack

 that

you have as well as prices and shipping addresses.  Thanks in advance.

 

christian brubaker

 

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

 

>  Paul Maher wrote: Try making Disney t-shirts and selling them outside the

 gates

> >of DisneyLand and see how far you get that day.

> 

>         Speaking of t-shirts, as Jan Kerouac's literary executor I am

> empowered to license the production and marketing of Kerouac t-shirts in the

> state of California and any other state where the right of image devolves to

> the child (as it does in California).  Reasonable terms available.  90% of

> royalties will be paid to the Jan Kerouac Estate, whose revenues are

> currently being used by John Lash to try to have me thrown out.

>          This is not a joke, by the way.  I still legally have this right,

> until such time as Mr. Lash (and Mr. Sampas) succeed in having me removed.

>         --contact me thru my private email if you are interested.

> GNicosia@earthlink.net

>         --best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:59:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Anniversary of Jack Kerouac's death

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997101919082608@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I have become increasingly fond of the picture of Jack Keroauc on the cover

of the  Spanish edition of Memory Babe from Circe Ediciones, Avenida

Diagonal, 459, 08036 Barcelona,

SPAIN (Espana).

 

I have that cover on my web at:

 

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.html

 

if anyone wants to download it for their personal web sites or collections.

 

Also:

 

Even with all the uncomfortable moments the controversey over the Keroauc

archives has caused--continues to cause--it's been a stimulating learning

experience. I sit here thinking that if Gargon hadn't started this Beat

List someone else would have.

 

 BUT, maybe not.

 

Can you imagine the information we would not have been exposed to if this

list didn't exist? There are posts that will end up archived in many

collections.

 

On another subject for a moment:

 

The older I get, the more I'm "blown away" by things...books, poems, art,

family...computers.

I've had a computer for 16 or 17 years, and each day I'm awed by the

computers I've had and the computers I've got.

 

I spend a couple of hours three mornings a week with 2nd and 3rd graders in

their computer lab helping them learn how to use the computers and helping

with their writing projects. I think about the folks on the Beat List

frequently when I'm working with these children and wonder how many are

volunteering at a nearby schools. If you are not, believe me when I tell

you that you will be welcomed with open arms.

 

It'll "blow you away!"

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:47:12 +0000

Reply-To:     jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's letters being censored?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

As far as I know, it's pretty much common knowledge that the volumes of

Kerouac's letters edited by Ann Charters have been entirely screened by

Sampas, and we can realistically expect a (relatively) complete edition

of Jack's correspondence in maybe 50 years or so.

 

This is not surprising. A similar delay occured with James Joyce's

correspondence.

 

*** JOHN HASBROUCK

*** Graphic Design & Fingerstyle Guitar in Chicago

*** http://www.tezcat.com/~jhasbro

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:35:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What is going on in the world of mail lists

In-Reply-To:  <344EAC89.F0F82158@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> I sure do miss Charles Plymell.  What about you guys?

 

I was just wondering what this meant.  Has he stopped posting?  Is he

okay?

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:03:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      The unpublished Kerouac

Comments: To: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@tezcat.com>

In-Reply-To:  <344F0F0E.111D@tezcat.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

How much unpublished Kerouac material is still out there?  I've heard

rumors over the years that he wrote a novel about Burroughs, among

others, that may not have been finished or was finished only in draft

form.

 

Also various notebooks of poetry and writings that probably gathered dust

in his backpack over the years and may have gotten lost along the road.

 

I wonder if anyone has done a bibliographical estimate of how much

unpublished Kerouac is out there and if any of this stuff will ever see

the light of day?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:36:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Tomothy, What a great way to start a day.  Cogratulations and thank yous.

What is the Komaki English Teaching Center?

 

Looking forward to your posts

 

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 7:00 AM

Subject: Re: beat

 

 

>brian writes (last saturday--I haven't had a chance to get at the computer,

>but wanted to respond)

> 

>>hi......

>> 

>>i'm an eighteen year-old college student just introduced to the world of

jack

>>kerouac and the beat genre........

>> 

>>it's been truly interesting to listen to these feuds about jack's estate

and

>>all, each side of the "debate", such and such.......but.......

>> 

>>since people like me, and i am sure there are more like me, are not too in

>>tune with the whole beat atmosphere; perhaps as a couple of side e-mails

>>people could take off of these bloodbaths against each other and get back

to

>>the heart of the literature...

>> 

>>i, for one, would be interested in knowing everybody's favorite beat

books,

>>songs, quotations, etc........the lit. itself, the authors

>>themselves.........it's obvious that a good deal of people attached to

this

>>mailing list are more knowledgeable than i am, so it'd be nice to hear

>>feedback from all of you......

> 

>"Ahem...." (taps two times on the microphone--a short screech of feedback

>fans open and fades out) "Is this thing on?"

> 

>Favorite

>Beat Book(s):   Doctor Sax by Jack Kerouac

>Beat Song       The Ghosts of Saturday Night by Tom Waits

>                I Travelled Mostly on the Road by Herbert Hunke and Chuck

>Prophet on the 10% File Under Burroughs CD, anything from Kicks Joy

Darkness

>Beat Quote      "Charlie Parker looked like Buddha."

> 

>> 

>>some questions i would like to ask Each of you:

>>what draws you to this genre?

>>what is so important about it? in the role of america or the world?

>>where is it headed, if anywhere?

>>how have these authors and poets impacted your lives?

> 

>Feel drawn to this genre for a number of reasons one of them being the

>quality/life/guts/vision/tenderness/youthfullness/horror and truth of the

>writing

> 

>The genre itself is not so important--I mean, what is so important about

>the picture frame holding "Guernica" in its four corners? It is the ideas

>contained within, the sketches, the moments, what they captured that you

>can relate to, you can almost taste the dust as another car blows by old

>limping Jack, can't get a ride, in Big Sur, shared images, ...

> 

>Where is it headed? In about fifty different directions. I quess some will

>become aquainted and contribute to its evolution through the written works.

>Others might catch the bug from a movie or a CD collection a web page Gap

>ad Johnny Depp reading Romibus or Beat-L or maybe even Mr. Feltsleeves

>assigning The Railroad Earth for a weekend reading assignment. Where is IT

>headed? Where are YOU headed? Any writing aspirations?

> 

>Has this writing CHANGED MY LIFE? Of course. What I had for lunch today

>changed my life. The Indians winning Game Four of the World Series to even

>up the series two apiece changed my life (an unapolgetic plug for the

>Tribe--I'm from Northeast Ohio and've been waiting all my life, dear God).

>By the way, were you aware of the baseball game Jack Kerouac had invented

>as a child and had played all his life, very complicated system using

>basball card stats and whatnot to play though a whole season of games.

>Reminds me of similar creations and made-up sports concocted with older

>brothers in long-ago golden afternoon freedoms. A-ha! This Beat literature

>has HELPED ME REMEMBER the beauty and fun and wonder and adventure of

>childhood. For God's sake, read Doctor Sax.

> 

>> 

>>etc.....etc.......the trivial things that are the most important

>>sometimes........otherwise, the legal mumbo jumbo will get old unless

>>balanced with another topic....

> 

>Brian, yes, we need balance. Personally, I agree that the estate discussion

>belongs on this list (where else?--untill there's a Jack Kerouac Estate

>Discussion-L). I'm willing to choose what I want to read and respond to. I

>thank you for your timely questions and welcome you (unofficially, of

>course) to the genre.

> 

>:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::

>Timothy Hoffman

>Komaki English Teaching Center (KETC)

>Komaki Shiminkaikan, KETC

>2-107 Komaki

>Komaki, Aichi 485

>work (0568) 76-0905

>fax (0568) 77-8207

>home (0568)72-3549

>timothy@gol.com

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:04:17 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Richard Wallner, go away

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Marie C wrote to Richard Wallner:

> go away. find some friends. get a life. get some manners. the universe

> does not owe you one goddamned thing. life is what we make it. we  make

> our own karma. yours is going down the proverbial toilet as i type.

 

Well said, Marie.  The one thing people often don't understand (or

figure out too late, after they've made fools of themselves in

public) is that mailing lists and other internet forums are

social places.  A wide diversity of behavior should be accepted --

that's what makes the conversations interesting -- but "behavior"

is what it is.  You can't treat mailing lists like garbage cans

for all your pent-up misconcieved mental trash, which is what

unfortunately some people do, until they get flamed enough

that they learn to stop.

 

At this point we are convening at a social/intellectual event

hosted by Bill Gargan courtesy of Brooklyn College (CUNY) where

Bill works.  I've met Bill a few times, and for those of you

who haven't he's a warm, generous person with no interest

in the legal/political aspects of the Keroauc estate, and

a strong love for Kerouac's writings.  He understands that

this list is a social place, and he does an excellent job

of being an "invisible host", rarely taking part in controversies

here because of his responsibilities as host.  In the current

case he only got involved because he wanted to help keep the

tone of the list friendly and humane -- that's the only

reason.

 

Richard Wallner, if this event existed in physical space somebody

would have kicked your ass by now for your obnoxious behavior.

Cut it out, go away.  And please do feel free to start your own

list, nobody's stopping you.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|              *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                    |

|                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:24:52 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: What is going on in the world of mail lists

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Charles is fine.  He is very busy so left the list some time ago.  The

fact that he is missed has been passed on.

 

J Stauiffer

> 

> > I sure do miss Charles Plymell.  What about you guys?

> 

> I was just wondering what this meant.  Has he stopped posting?  Is he

> okay?

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:07:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      hi cathie!

 

nice to meet you cathie!

yes- our little exchange proves your point perfectly. in this cold cold

world of computers we forget who the people are and look only at words.

so how did you discover the beats? mine was the typical- someone said

read OTR, so i did and i fell in love. but over time i'm starting to take

more interest in the actual people and events, and less in the

literature.

on that note- i'm reading the letters of WSB. there are a ton of

perrallels (hate that word) between the letters and the text in OTR. most

of the letters are written while JK is on the road- and even mentions how

neal left his wife with Old Bull Lee, (WSB of course), and the feeling

wsb had about that. (hated it) also writes to allen about jacks stay in

Mex city, and how Jack bummed him for money and never paid back. this

would be a helluva paper topic. (damn- should've thought of that before i

got kicked out of school :)

the letters also detail Allen's role in getting Junky published, and the

hassles he had with the editors, and all the changes he made. (it's no

wonder he's known for his cut and paste method. he probably simply put

the wrong chapters in the wrong places accidently)

so definitely recommended reading.

funny you should ask about pull my daisy.

i have had absolutely positively no luck either.

been to all the "big" video stores, and several locals. noone seems to

know anything about it, and for some reason can't find it to order it.

so if you ever find anything, or if anyone else knows- please post!

unless you meant pull my daisy, poem by Jack, neal and allen. it's for

sure in a book called "allen Ginsberg, collected poems, 1947-1980".

it's a very good poem. (coming from a not so big fan of poetry)

ok, bye.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:08:42 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: What we're supposed to be doing on this list

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

welcome binu.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:13:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      johnson quote

 

 we're for the most part

>"Johnson's".

> 

 

off any subject whatsoever-

cool WSB quote- "just when you think the world is full of Shits, you meet

a johnson"

 

(i think thats how it goes)

 

ok, go back to discussing real stuff!

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:13:42 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      mr dylan

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

haven't taken the newest out of my CD player since i got it.

so good to hear him so bittersweet, vulnerable  and strong. it all

rocks, and the love ballads are so full of self knowledge and elegaic

tones, so lovely. happy thursday everbody.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:26:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Mr. Asher, dont overreact

Comments: To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9710230708.A18745-0100000@netcom>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Mr. Asher,

 

what have I done that is so bad?  All I was doing was trying to prevent

the caretaker of this list from censoring one of its subsribers (Nicosia

in this case) who was just trying to defend himself.  This was not a

personal attack on Bill Gargan.  I am sure Bill Gargan is a hell of a guy

and he does a terrific job with this list normally.  But nobody is

perfect, and he overreacted here, and by his own admission overstated his

ability to effectively police this list.

 

Mr. Asher, you and Marie and Leon and several others are not being

objective, you are refusing to see that I am only talking about ethics,

not making personal attacks.  I have been attacked personally when I have

never singled out you, Mr. Asher, or anyone else and questioned motives.

The attacks you and Ms. Countryman leveled against me, especially by

putting them on the list andnot confrnting me privately, lacked common

dignity.  All I want is for the list to grow, and the list cannot grow if

it remains at its core a clique of people who will resort to personal

attacks if any friend of theirs is critized about anything, no matter how

valid.  I was trying to defend the honor of the list, by pointing out to

Mr. Gargan that it is wrong to censor anybody here, or treat anyone as if

they are less important or their opinions dont matter.

 

This list is much more than what it was when it started.  It is not a

little social grup of CUNY or Brooklyn college beat readers, it has over

200 subscribers around the country.

 

It is a special list and deserves to be cared for properly.  Mr. Asher,

you and your friends act as ifyou wish this list only had those people on

it that are in your clique.

 

My motives were honest and above board.  Yours arent, Mr. Asher.  You

have proved that you are more interested in protecting your friends, than

accepting the fact that nobody is perfect.  All I want is for uncensored

and open debate on Beat issues, and for people to be able to defend

themselvs when attacked.

 

All you want is whatever Bill Gargan wants, no matter what that is.  You

cant accept that there is even a 1 in 10,000 chance that he overreacted

because he's "Bill Gargan"

 

This is not about personalities.  It is about the Beat-L list and how

best to run it.  I wish you could see that I have good intentions.

 

 

Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:54:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: hi cathie!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:07 AM 10/23/97 -0500, you wrote:

>nice to meet you cathie!

>yes- our little exchange proves your point perfectly. in this cold cold

>world of computers we forget who the people are and look only at words.

>so how did you discover the beats? mine was the typical- someone said

>read OTR, so i did and i fell in love. but over time i'm starting to take

>more interest in the actual people and events, and less in the

>literature.

>on that note- i'm reading the letters of WSB. there are a ton of

>perrallels (hate that word) between the letters and the text in OTR. most

>of the letters are written while JK is on the road- and even mentions how

>neal left his wife with Old Bull Lee, (WSB of course), and the feeling

>wsb had about that. (hated it) also writes to allen about jacks stay in

>Mex city, and how Jack bummed him for money and never paid back. this

>would be a helluva paper topic. (damn- should've thought of that before i

>got kicked out of school :)

>the letters also detail Allen's role in getting Junky published, and the

>hassles he had with the editors, and all the changes he made. (it's no

>wonder he's known for his cut and paste method. he probably simply put

>the wrong chapters in the wrong places accidently)

>so definitely recommended reading.

>funny you should ask about pull my daisy.

>i have had absolutely positively no luck either.

>been to all the "big" video stores, and several locals. noone seems to

>know anything about it, and for some reason can't find it to order it.

>so if you ever find anything, or if anyone else knows- please post!

>unless you meant pull my daisy, poem by Jack, neal and allen. it's for

>sure in a book called "allen Ginsberg, collected poems, 1947-1980".

>it's a very good poem. (coming from a not so big fan of poetry)

>ok, bye.

> 

> 

wsb is an am station in Atlanta.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:46:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr dylan

 

don't want to start anything tangential here, but marie, i know what you

mean... Dylan is getting lots of play up here in Seattle. What an incredible

CD. It will be the first thing I've bought since Blood on the Tracks (don't

flame me, anyone).

 

Back to the Beats.... Let's have a lot more Burroughs, Ginsberg and Kerouac

letters here. We haven't talked about the Beat Triumvurate for a long, long

time.

 

Recommended reading to anyone on the (now passed) anniversary of jack's

death, or any time before the snow flies: "Gone in October," by John Clellon

Holmes, Playboy magazine, February 1973. I just read it on the day of jack's

passing, and was stunned by how beautiful and intimate it was.

 

I don't mind telling you I cried more than once while reading it.

 

Is it posted anywhere? Levi? Tim? anyone know? It should be. It's too

beautiful not to be required Beat reading.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:00:02 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bill Gargan

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:16 PM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Dear Bill,

> 

>Please ignore the babbling of Richard Wallner and Gerry Nicosia.  We

>love this list.  If it means blocking a few folks who repeatedly violate

>the hospitality of the list, so be it.  It would be a pity to lose this

>vehicle, which means so much to so many of us, to the pique of Mr

>Nicosia (who joins us only to flog his estate position ) and Mr. Wallner

>(who doesn't seem to understand it).  They have been asked both on the

>list and backchannel to take a break.  They refuse.  This is not a

>matter of freespeech but a violation of rudimentary manners.

> 

>Appalled and frustrated,

> 

>James Stauffer

> 

Mr. Stauffer, I am appalled at YOU!!!  I have spent quite a bit of time

answering your questions on all sorts of things, because I'm dedicated to

sharing what knowledge I have on any Beat/Kerouac subjects.  I recall

talking to you about Bob Kaufman and other things as well.  I have also

answered DOZENS of other people's questions from this list that had nothing

to do with the Kerouac Estate--including helping Mark Nofari with jazz

questions and Jennifer's recent request about Beat influence on the 60's.

Like Mr. Chaput, you appear to have an appallingly poor memory.

        --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:35:53 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: What is going on in the world of mail lists

 

Charley left the list so he could have time to write.

 

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Donald G. Jr. Lee

Sent:   Thursday, October 23, 1997 6:35 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: What is going on in the world of mail lists

 

> I sure do miss Charles Plymell.  What about you guys?

 

I was just wondering what this meant.  Has he stopped posting?  Is he

okay?

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:31:07 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac t-shirts

Comments: cc: caintb01@holmes.ipfw.indiana.edu

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:01 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I was wondering if I could get a list with descriptions of the t-shirts of jack

> that

>you have as well as prices and shipping addresses.  Thanks in advance.

> 

>christian brubaker

> 

Dear Christian and others:

        There have been so many requests for Kerouac t-shirts that I better

clarify what I meant.  I have never manufactured any Kerouac t-shirts,

though perhaps I ought to!  What I meant is if anybody is in the

t-shirt-making business in California, I can grant you the license to make

t-shirts with Kerouac's image or name on them.  Each state has separate

"image" laws, and in some states, like California, the image rights devolve

to the child, in this case daughter Jan, whose literary rights I represent.

So I can license use of Kerouac if any of YOU want to manufacture t-shirts.

If you are in a different state, you would need to check the law as far as

who controls the image rights of a famous dead person, like Elvis or James

Dean, for example.

        I do, however, have a few Kerouac t-shirts left over from Kerouac

events I've put on.  I have several of the "Kerouac and Kerouac: the Legacy"

t-shirts which were sold at the benefits for Jan.  These have photos of Jan

and Jack side by side on the front, on black cloth, lettering in red and

yellow.  Back has list in red of all the benefit participants, including Ken

Kesey, Hugh Selby Jr., Paul Krassner and Rambling Jack Elliott, and a big

yellow signature in her own handwriting saying "Thanks to you all! Jan

Kerouac!"  Sizes in large and extra large.

        And I have a few T-shirts of the famous ON THE ROAD jacket photo of

Jack Kerouac, big on the front--in checkered shirt with hair on his

forehead.  Printed in blue, black, and tan." Jack Kerouac is lettered all

around his face," and the back of the t-shirt is a tie-dyed effect.  These

few are only extra-large.

        If anybody's interested in these, I'll sell them for twenty bucks

each, plus postage.  The legacy ones are true collector's items, since there

was only one printing of about 200.  I haven't seen any more of the Kerouac

ON THE ROAD face ones for years either, but I can't say for sure that those

ones aren't still being manufactured.

        Email me directly if you're interested, please.  GNicosia@earthlink.net

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:41:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      shut up!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Just shut up! Shut up!  Arrrrrrgh!  This is incredibly aggravating.  What

started as contested points, became an arguement, then bickering, then an

all out bitch slap.  The the dust settled (or paused) for a day or so now

now an arguement about the arguement.  Shut up!  Let it drop!  Move on!

You people are driving me feakin' bananas!   Yah-yah-yah-yah!  Silence

yourselves!  The only problem anyone has is that it never stops and gets

nasty.  Just don't let it get nasty, and don't perpetuate it.  So, STOP!

DAMMIT!  This is getting silly.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:42:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Origins of the Feud

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:48 PM 10/22/97 -0400, Mike Rice wrote:

>Why doesn't someone explain the history of this gigantic

>feud over the estate.  The only thing good about it is that

>it has increased traffic on the list.  How about an overview,

>a discussion of the ancient roots of this rhubarb.

 

Dear Mike,    Oct 23, 1997

        I have written MY VERSION, which is called "Kerouacgate at NYU," and

it's posted on Joe Grant's wonderful web site, www.bookzen.com.  If you have

any trouble reaching it, let me or Joe Grant know.  Joe's email is

jgrant@bookzen.com  Joe is maybe the world's most knowledgeable librarian

and he has lots of great stuff on his site besides Jan Kerouac.  He is also

one of the greatest authorities on the underground press of the 1960's, and

was an underground publisher himself for many years.

        Now perhaps one of the literary folk in the Sampas camp would care

to write Mr. Sampas's version of the rhubarb, as you call it.  I'm all for

that.  Mr. Maher could post it on his website.  Let us know when you have it

up, Paul.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:45:17 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac t-shirts, anyone?

In-Reply-To:  <344EB00B.688E04CB@mindspring.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> >

> >         Speaking of t-shirts, as Jan Kerouac's literary executor I am

> > empowered to license the production and marketing of Kerouac t-shirts in the

 

He says empowered to *license* meaning you can make 'em if you ask.  Doubt

he has a bundle to flog out of his trunk.....

 

Although, this is something to think about if we do another Beat-L

t-shirt.....

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:39:21 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971023120712.4848A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

you wrote:

(snip)

...

> it remains at its core a clique of people who will resort to personal

> attacks if any friend of theirs is critized about anything, no matter how

> valid.

...

> Mr. Gargan that it is wrong to censor anybody here, or treat anyone as if

> they are less important or their opinions dont matter.

...

> It is a special list and deserves to be cared for properly.  Mr. Asher,

> you and your friends act as ifyou wish this list only had those people on

> it that are in your clique.

...

> have proved that you are more interested in protecting your friends, than

> accepting the fact that nobody is perfect.  All I want is for uncensored

> and open debate on Beat issues, and for people to be able to defend

> themselvs when attacked.

richard

(pls note that i have excerpted parts of yr previous letter to beat-L for

brevity's sake)

i take exception to several of the things that you have written in this

post (and YES i consider myslef a freind of ms.marie countryman having

corresponded with her on & off list for several years, and have a great

amount of respect for mr.asher, who's beat webpage is phenominal, and

mr.gargan who's beat-L dedication i highly appreciate)

like others have said here - i do not consider beat-L a clique nor an

exclusionary family. everyone is welcome, but we must realize (in my

opinion) that we are guests of Mr.gargan here & that there are people

(people with feelings and emotions) behind the posts. Bill has made it

very clear that so long as posts are civil and nondisruptive that any

discussion is valid or reasonable. if concversations move from group

interst into the realm of a select group, it is not unreasonable to move

the conversation.

        think of it as a party at somebody's house. everyone is gathered

in the living room talking together. the conversation then spliters into

asides and more private dialogues. would you want (or would the group want

to) listen to the private or personal as well as the group conversations?

i imagine marie and i getting off on a tangent and walking into the

kitchen to raid the fridge and continue the conversation, while the party

continues in other viens. that kitchen excurtion is "off-list", the living

room is "on-list". a few people in the living room take things too far,

insulting and generally getting too heated for the confort of the room and

the host... the host kindly asks if the  participants in that heated

arguement would care to take their arguemnet into another room and sort ou

their differences ("off-list").

        would you not do the same if it was yr living room?

        that doesnt mean that the host is being clque-ish or exclusionary

- just letting the level of conversation remain comfortable for the

greatest number of people.

        this all sounds very reasonable to me, does it not to you?

        yrs

        derek beaulieu

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:08:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: The unpublished Kerouac

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:03 AM 10/23/97 -0400, Richard Wallner wrote:

>I wonder if anyone has done a bibliographical estimate of how much

>unpublished Kerouac is out there and if any of this stuff will ever see

>the light of day?

> 

Richard,

        I probably have the best idea of anyone OUTSIDE of the Sampas camp,

because I read over 2,000 Kerouac letters, and in many of them he talks

about the unpublished books.  My estimate is that there are at least 6 more

COMPLETE books (THE SEA IS MY BROTHER, THE HIPPOS WERE BOILED IN THEIR

TANKS, BUDDHA TELLS US, THE NIGHT IS MY WIFE, which is in French, among

them), and another 10 or so in draft form, like VISIONS OF BILL, VISIONS OF

LUCIEN, BOOK OF SKETCHES, and MEMORY BABE.  According to Tony Sampas, he had

also begun a novel about Nicky's Bar in Lowell, in which all the Sampases

were characters!!!

        Then you have several hundred notebooks, out of which you could

easily quarry another 20 books.  For example: "Kerouac on Women," "Kerouac's

Days in North Beach," etc.  Just pick a theme, and quarry material from

these hundreds of notebooks that fits it.

        John Sampas seems to be committed to publishing the stuff, however

slowly.  My chief concern in this regard is the heavyhanded censorship which

he is exercising.  Until he makes these manuscripts and notebooks open to

the public, we'll never know how much is being left out or, God forbid,

altered to suit Mr. Sampas's tastes.  You will note, with the last two

publications, Mr. Sampas has even taken the liberty of dedicating the books

in the way he THINKS Jack should have dedicated them.

        That's why it's so important to have the whole Kerouac archive

available in one place.  We know books get edited, yes, it is standard

practice as Maher and a few others have noted.  But that is why you have

library archives, so that the scholars and readers who care can check back

and see what the originals said.  And then sometimes books get written

telling us about all the stuff that got left out, and those can be some damn

interesting books!  There's a great one called THE UNRECORDED LIFE OF OSCAR

WILDE (yes, I do have literary interests beyond Jack Kerouac, folks).

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:10:40 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Peter Orlowsky grammar.

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971023105920.17556A-100000@cap1.capaccess .org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

salve! amici beat,

in Peter Orlowsky poem there's a lot of grammar mistakes,

if it's deliberate i think this way of poetry is fine,

un abraco e obrigado,

rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:15:52 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Web Site Update

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hello everyone,

 

     Here is a healthy break from the BEAT-L list, drop in at my web

page! As some of you know there weren't any updates for a few days,

well...The page has added quite a few new features.  So stop by and

check it out.

     Thank you,

Keith

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:23:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Wichita Vortex

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hey all -- and especially Antoine:

 

doing a little hobo-in' this weekend ... gonna head down to the old

Vortex in Wichita Kansas.

 

it is only 90 minutes away and i've almost never explored it.  so this

weekend I will.  (also some old friends will be at the University)

 

Any suggestions on Vortexian Venues that deserve examining let me know.

 

hobo over and out,

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:46:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Web Site Update

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Keith Medline wrote:

> 

> Hello everyone,

> 

>      Here is a healthy break from the BEAT-L list, drop in at my web

> page! As some of you know there weren't any updates for a few days,

> well...The page has added quite a few new features.  So stop by and

> check it out.

>      Thank you,

> Keith

> 

 

well, i am no health nut, but enoyed the stop. thank you for posting all

the different poets (including me blush).

Rinaldo, get something over to this guy, it would be nice to see a few

of you others too.

 

is there a way that when you ask how we found our way there we could

check beat-l.

 

I especially enjoyed the link to the ginzy site.  When i tried to e-mail

that site i got a nondeliverable post. any information on that site, it

is great.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:22:01 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Gone in October

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:46:46 -0400 from <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

 

"Gone in October" is a wonderful eulogy.  It's also reprinted in Holmes' Collec

ted Works.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:29:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

Comments: To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971023112645.108748B-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> the host... the host kindly asks if the  participants in that heated

> arguement would care to take their arguemnet into another room and sort ou

> their differences ("off-list").

>         would you not do the same if it was yr living room?

>         that doesnt mean that the host is being clque-ish or exclusionary

> - just letting the level of conversation remain comfortable for the

> greatest number of people.

>         this all sounds very reasonable to me, does it not to you?

 

 

Derek,

 

point taken, but you see Mr. Gargan wasnt *asking*, he was *telling* them

to take the argument off the list and was making *threats* to block

certain people from this list.

 

In addition, as you saw in the email he sent me, which I forwarded to the

list, he claims to have reserved the right to decide which topics are

appropriate here and which arent.

 

All I ask is what should be expected, that things be done democratically

here, that no actions be taken or topics declared off limits or people

blocked, unless the *majority* of the subscribers (not just Bill Gargan)

deem it appropriate.

 

People will not contribute regularly unless they feel like they are a

part of this list, like what they feel counts.  Like each and every

subscriber to this list means something.

 

I dont know Nicosia or Phil Maher or any of the principals involved.  If

it had been *you* or Marie or Leon who was being threatened with censure,

I'd have defended you to.  I was standing up for principle.  If someone

is attacked publicly (on the list), and many people ahve read the

attacks, that person has the right to defend himself *on the list* so

everyone who read the attacks can also read the defense.  Is this not

fair Derek?

 

And for that I get attacked because to those who know Bill Gargan,

nothing anybody else on this list says means anything.

 

Why can I be given the benefit of the doubt by you people that I am

expressing genuine concerns here?  That I am in acting in what I felt and

is in the best interests of this list, in protecting its openness.

 

 

Richard W.

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:48:36 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr dylan

 

Diane - where did you find the old Playboy issue?

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Diane De Rooy

Sent:   Thursday, October 23, 1997 9:46 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: mr dylan

 

don't want to start anything tangential here, but marie, i know what you

mean... Dylan is getting lots of play up here in Seattle. What an incredible

CD. It will be the first thing I've bought since Blood on the Tracks (don't

flame me, anyone).

 

Back to the Beats.... Let's have a lot more Burroughs, Ginsberg and Kerouac

letters here. We haven't talked about the Beat Triumvurate for a long, long

time.

 

Recommended reading to anyone on the (now passed) anniversary of jack's

death, or any time before the snow flies: "Gone in October," by John Clellon

Holmes, Playboy magazine, February 1973. I just read it on the day of jack's

passing, and was stunned by how beautiful and intimate it was.

 

I don't mind telling you I cried more than once while reading it.

 

Is it posted anywhere? Levi? Tim? anyone know? It should be. It's too

beautiful not to be required Beat reading.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:04:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac t-shirts

In-Reply-To:  <199710231731.KAA25635@norway.it.earthlink.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Gerry,

 

Save me one of the shirts with Jack and Jan pics side-by-side and her sig

on the back.

 

I'll get a check off to you in a few days.

 

I can't believe Stauffer's "Please ignore the babbling of Richard Wallner

and Gerry Nicosia."

 

Haven't had time to comment YET.

 

Such crap.

 

joe

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:43:03 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Richard Wallner, go away

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

thank you, levi.

mc

 

Levi Asher wrote:

 

> Marie C wrote to Richard Wallner:

> > go away. find some friends. get a life. get some manners. the universe

> > does not owe you one goddamned thing. life is what we make it. we  make

> > our own karma. yours is going down the proverbial toilet as i type.

> 

> Well said, Marie.  The one thing people often don't understand (or

> figure out too late, after they've made fools of themselves in

> public) is that mailing lists and other internet forums are

> social places.  A wide diversity of behavior should be accepted --

> that's what makes the conversations interesting -- but "behavior"

> is what it is.  You can't treat mailing lists like garbage cans

> for all your pent-up misconcieved mental trash, which is what

> unfortunately some people do, until they get flamed enough

> that they learn to stop.

> 

> At this point we are convening at a social/intellectual event

> hosted by Bill Gargan courtesy of Brooklyn College (CUNY) where

> Bill works.  I've met Bill a few times, and for those of you

> who haven't he's a warm, generous person with no interest

> in the legal/political aspects of the Keroauc estate, and

> a strong love for Kerouac's writings.  He understands that

> this list is a social place, and he does an excellent job

> of being an "invisible host", rarely taking part in controversies

> here because of his responsibilities as host.  In the current

> case he only got involved because he wanted to help keep the

> tone of the list friendly and humane -- that's the only

> reason.

> 

> Richard Wallner, if this event existed in physical space somebody

> would have kicked your ass by now for your obnoxious behavior.

> Cut it out, go away.  And please do feel free to start your own

> list, nobody's stopping you.

> 

> ------------------------------------------------------

> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

> |                                                    |

> |    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

> |     (the beat literature web site)                 |

> |                                                    |

> |        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

> |          (a real book, like on paper)              |

> |             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

> |                                                    |

> |              *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

> |                                                    |

> |                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

> ------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:00:35 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: mr dylan

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

yes, i second the motion to get a hold of this issue (2/73

and i don't see dylan as tangential. he's a musical beat in many ways, but then

he's the jester in white face and the man who no one presumes to know....

happy thursday

mc

 

Diane De Rooy wrote:

 

> don't want to start anything tangential here, but marie, i know what you

> mean... Dylan is getting lots of play up here in Seattle. What an incredible

> CD. It will be the first thing I've bought since Blood on the Tracks (don't

> flame me, anyone).

> 

> Back to the Beats.... Let's have a lot more Burroughs, Ginsberg and Kerouac

> letters here. We haven't talked about the Beat Triumvurate for a long, long

> time.

> 

> Recommended reading to anyone on the (now passed) anniversary of jack's

> death, or any time before the snow flies: "Gone in October," by John Clellon

> Holmes, Playboy magazine, February 1973. I just read it on the day of jack's

> passing, and was stunned by how beautiful and intimate it was.

> 

> I don't mind telling you I cried more than once while reading it.

> 

> Is it posted anywhere? Levi? Tim? anyone know? It should be. It's too

> beautiful not to be required Beat reading.

> 

> diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:07:44 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

wonderful wonderful insp d:

as always.

mc

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

 

> you wrote:

> (snip)

> ...

> > it remains at its core a clique of people who will resort to personal

> > attacks if any friend of theirs is critized about anything, no matter how

> > valid.

> ...

> > Mr. Gargan that it is wrong to censor anybody here, or treat anyone as if

> > they are less important or their opinions dont matter.

> ...

> > It is a special list and deserves to be cared for properly.  Mr. Asher,

> > you and your friends act as ifyou wish this list only had those people on

> > it that are in your clique.

> ...

> > have proved that you are more interested in protecting your friends, than

> > accepting the fact that nobody is perfect.  All I want is for uncensored

> > and open debate on Beat issues, and for people to be able to defend

> > themselvs when attacked.

> richard

> (pls note that i have excerpted parts of yr previous letter to beat-L for

> brevity's sake)

> i take exception to several of the things that you have written in this

> post (and YES i consider myslef a freind of ms.marie countryman having

> corresponded with her on & off list for several years, and have a great

> amount of respect for mr.asher, who's beat webpage is phenominal, and

> mr.gargan who's beat-L dedication i highly appreciate)

> like others have said here - i do not consider beat-L a clique nor an

> exclusionary family. everyone is welcome, but we must realize (in my

> opinion) that we are guests of Mr.gargan here & that there are people

> (people with feelings and emotions) behind the posts. Bill has made it

> very clear that so long as posts are civil and nondisruptive that any

> discussion is valid or reasonable. if concversations move from group

> interst into the realm of a select group, it is not unreasonable to move

> the conversation.

>         think of it as a party at somebody's house. everyone is gathered

> in the living room talking together. the conversation then spliters into

> asides and more private dialogues. would you want (or would the group want

> to) listen to the private or personal as well as the group conversations?

> i imagine marie and i getting off on a tangent and walking into the

> kitchen to raid the fridge and continue the conversation, while the party

> continues in other viens. that kitchen excurtion is "off-list", the living

> room is "on-list". a few people in the living room take things too far,

> insulting and generally getting too heated for the confort of the room and

> the host... the host kindly asks if the  participants in that heated

> arguement would care to take their arguemnet into another room and sort ou

> their differences ("off-list").

>         would you not do the same if it was yr living room?

>         that doesnt mean that the host is being clque-ish or exclusionary

> - just letting the level of conversation remain comfortable for the

> greatest number of people.

>         this all sounds very reasonable to me, does it not to you?

>         yrs

>         derek beaulieu

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:12:37 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Web Site Update

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

also bohemians: any cross listers here besides me who isn't feeling idiotic

today? can't follow directions never mind give them.

mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Keith Medline wrote:

> >

> > Hello everyone,

> >

> >      Here is a healthy break from the BEAT-L list, drop in at my web

> > page! As some of you know there weren't any updates for a few days,

> > well...The page has added quite a few new features.  So stop by and

> > check it out.

> >      Thank you,

> > Keith

> >

> 

> well, i am no health nut, but enoyed the stop. thank you for posting all

> the different poets (including me blush).

> Rinaldo, get something over to this guy, it would be nice to see a few

> of you others too.

> 

> is there a way that when you ask how we found our way there we could

> check beat-l.

> 

> I especially enjoyed the link to the ginzy site.  When i tried to e-mail

> that site i got a nondeliverable post. any information on that site, it

> is great.

> patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:18:28 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Book Woman Returns

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

welcome back, judith: i understand completely, i spent two weeks on the sur

on ted turners getaway (no glory in this, long sordid story, need to be

supervised in order to return oh well)

any way, i'm heading to CA for dec-jan and i know what you mean. my other

favorite place is vesuvius and city lights, yes, right next to each other on

jack kerouac lane (dead end alleyj-make of this what you will folks) anyway i

have pictures of the corners there and lots of fond memories. can't wait

mc

 

Judith Campbell wrote:

 

> I'm back, after a couple of months on the road, including a wonderful trip

> to City Lights, where I would still be if my spousal unit had not insisted

> I accompany him back home.

> 

> I bought the 40th Anniversary edition of On The Road and a copy of Some of

> the Dharma.  Spent a lot of time just wandering around in the Beat section

> of the store soaking up the vibes and wishing I had more money (and time)

> to spend.  The kind gentleman behind the counter at City Lights stamped my

> books with the store seal, and I bought a bookbag to carry them home.

> 

> Would have spent more time in North Beach, but it was raining hard.  Next

> morning I decided I had to see Big Sur, so we took Highway 1 all the way

> from San Jose to Los Angeles.  Stopped for lunch in Big Sur, and sat

> outside on the porch of the resturant reading from The Sea....I'm still

> looking for Mien Mo Mountain...someday!

> 

>  I didn't make it to Half Moon Bay (next trip) but I saw the most awesome

> sunset of my life over Morro Bay...sun setting over the ocean, huge full

> moon rising over the hills to the east, clear skies, Venus and Mars and

> lots of stars.

> 

> Strangely,  as I stood on the shore at Morro Bay and looked out over the

> Pacific, my heart kept saying "this is home".

> 

> Bodily, I'm back in Georgia.  Spiritually, a big chuck of me is still

> wandering around between the books of City Lights and rocks of the

> California coast.

> 

> It's been a most wonderful experience.

> 

> Judith

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:26:54 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

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please everyone i beg you don't make me be the one to tell mr walner he needs

to seek help,

especially since i was rubberstamped mad 10 months ago.

but even i have standards

mc

 

Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> > the host... the host kindly asks if the  participants in that heated

> > arguement would care to take their arguemnet into another room and sort ou

> > their differences ("off-list").

> >         would you not do the same if it was yr living room?

> >         that doesnt mean that the host is being clque-ish or exclusionary

> > - just letting the level of conversation remain comfortable for the

> > greatest number of people.

> >         this all sounds very reasonable to me, does it not to you?

> 

> Derek,

> 

> point taken, but you see Mr. Gargan wasnt *asking*, he was *telling* them

> to take the argument off the list and was making *threats* to block

> certain people from this list.

> 

> In addition, as you saw in the email he sent me, which I forwarded to the

> list, he claims to have reserved the right to decide which topics are

> appropriate here and which arent.

> 

> All I ask is what should be expected, that things be done democratically

> here, that no actions be taken or topics declared off limits or people

> blocked, unless the *majority* of the subscribers (not just Bill Gargan)

> deem it appropriate.

> 

> People will not contribute regularly unless they feel like they are a

> part of this list, like what they feel counts.  Like each and every

> subscriber to this list means something.

> 

> I dont know Nicosia or Phil Maher or any of the principals involved.  If

> it had been *you* or Marie or Leon who was being threatened with censure,

> I'd have defended you to.  I was standing up for principle.  If someone

> is attacked publicly (on the list), and many people ahve read the

> attacks, that person has the right to defend himself *on the list* so

> everyone who read the attacks can also read the defense.  Is this not

> fair Derek?

> 

> And for that I get attacked because to those who know Bill Gargan,

> nothing anybody else on this list says means anything.

> 

> Why can I be given the benefit of the doubt by you people that I am

> expressing genuine concerns here?  That I am in acting in what I felt and

> is in the best interests of this list, in protecting its openness.

> 

> Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:51:26 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

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Richard,

 

Is everyone who objects to your attacks upon imaginary evil doers, a clique

ganging up on you? I  feel very fortunate to be a friend of any of the

people you mention as our clique from what I have seen of them through this

list. One of the reasons  that I value whatever friendship we have already

developed, is that I have seen much more maturity from them too be

interested in acting as cliques. I would back off from anything that looked

to me like a clique, very quickly.

 

Yes, I felt that you did insult Bill terribly, and I felt It should be

answered. You did accuse him of censorship and using his position as founder

of the list to promote one side of an dispute against the other. I have

never seen any  such unfair practices from Bill, and I appreciate his

patience and tolerance of your attacks that are so obviously based upon lack

of knowledge of what is a list, and misinterpretation of what Bill is trying

to do.

 

Bill has only tried to keep mudslinging from poisoning our list. Not

squelching any issues. Just because the name of Kerouac is included in a mud

slinging brawl between several people does not mean that the list should

welcome the mudslinging. The list is definitely a forum for estate issues,

it is not a ring for a brawl between people who fight each other.

 

You say your attacks are not personal. "Just ethics". I see ethical

accusations, whether they are about Paul, or whether they are about Bill, or

anyone, as being very personal indeed. Suggesting that he is not fit to be a

host of the list is a very personal insult.

 

Accusing me of acting from clique loyalties is a very personal accusation,

although as an expert in washing mud off my face, it really doesn't bother

me Richard. I just wish you would wake up and see more clearly what you are

looking at. There are no clique loyalties involved here at all. Just the

issues and how we see them.

 

leon

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 9:26 AM

Subject: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

 

 

>Mr. Asher,

> 

>what have I done that is so bad?  All I was doing was trying to prevent

>the caretaker of this list from censoring one of its subsribers (Nicosia

>in this case) who was just trying to defend himself.  This was not a

>personal attack on Bill Gargan.  I am sure Bill Gargan is a hell of a guy

>and he does a terrific job with this list normally.  But nobody is

>perfect, and he overreacted here, and by his own admission overstated his

>ability to effectively police this list.

> 

>Mr. Asher, you and Marie and Leon and several others are not being

>objective, you are refusing to see that I am only talking about ethics,

>not making personal attacks.  I have been attacked personally when I have

>never singled out you, Mr. Asher, or anyone else and questioned motives.

>The attacks you and Ms. Countryman leveled against me, especially by

>putting them on the list andnot confrnting me privately, lacked common

>dignity.  All I want is for the list to grow, and the list cannot grow if

>it remains at its core a clique of people who will resort to personal

>attacks if any friend of theirs is critized about anything, no matter how

>valid.  I was trying to defend the honor of the list, by pointing out to

>Mr. Gargan that it is wrong to censor anybody here, or treat anyone as if

>they are less important or their opinions dont matter.

> 

>This list is much more than what it was when it started.  It is not a

>little social grup of CUNY or Brooklyn college beat readers, it has over

>200 subscribers around the country.

> 

>It is a special list and deserves to be cared for properly.  Mr. Asher,

>you and your friends act as ifyou wish this list only had those people on

>it that are in your clique.

> 

>My motives were honest and above board.  Yours arent, Mr. Asher.  You

>have proved that you are more interested in protecting your friends, than

>accepting the fact that nobody is perfect.  All I want is for uncensored

>and open debate on Beat issues, and for people to be able to defend

>themselvs when attacked.

> 

>All you want is whatever Bill Gargan wants, no matter what that is.  You

>cant accept that there is even a 1 in 10,000 chance that he overreacted

>because he's "Bill Gargan"

> 

>This is not about personalities.  It is about the Beat-L list and how

>best to run it.  I wish you could see that I have good intentions.

> 

> 

>Richard W.

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Icychick34@AOL.COM

Subject:      HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

hello,

let me start off by saying that my name is kristina and i am a 19 year old in

need of help. i am writing a research paper about William S. Burroughs novel j

unky. i was wondering if you could help me by finding or offering critical

opinions of the book for me as soon as possible. anything you could come up

with would be greatly appreciated. thank you.

sincerely,

kristina ames              e-mail: ICYCHICK34@SOL.COM

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:50:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

Comments: To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971023112645.108748B-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>         think of it as a party at somebody's house. everyone is gathered

> in the living room talking together. the conversation then spliters into

> asides and more private dialogues. would you want (or would the group want

 

But this is not somebody's private house.  This list is not run off of

Bill Gargan's private computer.  It is a List-serv run off of the City

University of New York facilities, a taxpayer supported public

institution.  The taxpayer money of every subscriber on this list, or

certainly all of us who live in New York, are paying for the maintenance

and distribution of this list.

 

Mr. Gargan cannot run a private bbs ona public computer.  He is morally

and ethically bound to honor democratic principles, and legallylly bound

by university regulations.  I do not believe that CUNY administration

would feel that this list benefits its students, community or supporters

if it thought Mr. Gargan wanted only to honor his own agenda, and not

respect the wishes of those who subscribe o this list.

 

Thisis a public list.  We all own it.  Mr. Gargan, take this list down

and put it up on your personal computer if you want it otherwise.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:54:18 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr dylan

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<snip>

. happy thursday everbody.

<unsnip>

 

could i interest you in some cottleston pie?

 

> mc

> 

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:58:43 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: my voice

MIME-Version: 1.0

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very nice indeed.

 

> i'd like to share a poem also, in the midst of all this conflict. I'd like to

> remember the spirit of freedom and "get in a car and go" I'd appreciate

> comments, this is my first draft. here it goes....

> 

> Another car poem

> 

> take a drive with me tonight

> arch your back in the front seat

> and give me that wicked smile that promises

> we'll "get lost" on a dirt road somewhere

>         Just ride...

> with the coffe stained atrands of your hair

> leaking out the window

> as your laughter crescendoes

> to the shape of this little town,

> to the slip drip excitement

> the expanded view

> the canopy of palm trees and night road sound

>    humming crickets, and

>  "four wheels to the groud"

> i'd like to watch the world circle from the passenger seat,

> as you sprinkle ahes

> into the coated black air

>              Peppermint on your lips

>              "red afternoon in your eyes"

> let me inhale you

>    in the middle of the night

> with those fuzzy, soft-shadowed inside the car senses

> let me smell your pine needle incense

> watch you with your knees pulled up

> to your chest

> wishing for some down-time

>  alone time

>  happy raindrop sugar sweet time

>              I know you come a live at night time

> i know how you lower your eyes to the ground

>   as if thats where they belong

>    belong to the land

>      behold the land!

>       Grab onto the road!

>          Hold tight the night!

> Take a drive with me

> take the wheel

> take your big dreamsad eyes

> take the harvest moon

> take scented sounds spirits of foggy forest paths

> take radio songs and tall rusty haired country boys

> take your slitted mouth

>         that leans side to side

>     Take my hand....

> we'll spin inside the wet mosquito night

> answering the call of the highway

>  Two wind chasers mixing up a little homemade adventure

> in this mad-based       mad-crazed

>    sterile world.

> 

> ~~Marlene Giraud

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:02:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

Comments: To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

In-Reply-To:  <01bcdfed$0c1e8060$455de3a5@mbay69.cruzio.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> list. One of the reasons  that I value whatever friendship we have already

> developed, is that I have seen much more maturity from them too be

> interested in acting as cliques. I would back off from anything that looked

> to me like a clique, very quickly.

 

When people are attacking someone without addressing the merits of his

argument, but just to attack like a pack, that is a clique.  All Im

getting from people like Ms. Countryman is "amen's" and "way to go's"..

in response to other empty criticisms.  That is a clique mentality.

 >

> Yes, I felt that you did insult Bill terribly, and I felt It should be

> answered. You did accuse him of censorship and using his position as founder

> of the list to promote one side of an dispute against the other.

 

I have never said Bill supported one position or one side in this

dispute, just that he specifically threatened to block one person from

responding in self-defense to personal attacks.  That is a fact.  Not my

opinion.  He did threaten to block Gerry Nicosia from posting.

 

> Bill has only tried to keep mudslinging from poisoning our list. Not

> squelching any issues. Just because the name of Kerouac is included in a mud

> slinging brawl between several people does not mean that the list should

> welcome the mudslinging. The list is definitely a forum for estate issues,

> it is not a ring for a brawl between people who fight each other.

> 

This is not a moderated list, if Billwants to moderate it, he should

avoid the hypocrisy and simply make this a moderated list and review  all

posts.  He seems to want it both ways.

 

> You say your attacks are not personal. "Just ethics". I see ethical

> accusations, whether they are about Paul, or whether they are about Bill, or

> anyone, as being very personal indeed. Suggesting that he is not fit to be a

> host of the list is a very personal insult.

 

I never said he is not fit.  I said he is doing a good job.  Read my

posts again Leon.  I said he overreacted on this one issue, and he did.

That isnt a personal insult.  That it is taken as so is another

indication of the clique mentality.

 

I have told Mr. Gargan that in as much as I have been dragged through

themud, I will not drop this until he makes a public statement spelling

out his role, and agreeing to respect the majority wishes of the

subscribers of this list.

 

I just want him to tell his friends that he overreacted so they get off

my case, and we can go on.  He *did* threaten to block posts and he *did

*threaten* to dictate discussion.  thats not my imagination.  Those oare

facts!

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:00:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      The Beat Generation in New York

 

I just received (hot off the presses) my copy of Bill Morgan's new book, "The

Beat Generation in New York: A walking tour of Jack Kerouac's City," (City

Lights) and I hope I can stop drooling onto my keyboard long enough to tell

you how incredible it is.

 

As a cursory explanation of something you must see to appreciate, let me say

that Morgan has laid out the Beat City by neighborhoods, from Columbia

University to Times Square to the Village to the boroughs, developed

anecdotes about each site and juxtaposed the oral history with beautiful

photos... some familiar, some not. He's included a "Who's Who" for Beat

tyros, as well as a bibliography and index for reference.

 

It's beautiful, it's smooth, it's supple, it's juicy... it's Beat, baby.

 

"You get a sense of eternity looking at Manhattan from a boat arriving--the

buildings look as if they were manufacturing cosmic jazz." (Allen Ginsberg,

from the introduction) "I roamed the streets, the bridges, Times Square,

cafeterias, the waterfront, I looked up all my poet beatnik friends and

roamed with them, I had love affairs with girls in the Village, I did

everything with that great mad joy you get when you return to New York City."

(Jack Kerouac, from the introduction)

 

In addition to the usual suspects, Morgan also includes historic references

to Warhol et. al., Lou Reed et. al., Thomas Wolfe, Tim Leary, CBGBs and Jan

Kerouac. The book is delicious, to say the least.

 

I ordered my copy through City Lights, by going to their website at:

http://www.citylights.com/CLpub.html and then calling the phone order line

(better still, call City Lights direct and avoid the voice mail yada yada:

416/362-8193).

 

It may not even be available in your bookstore yet, but you can get it right

now by ordering direct.

 

I haven't ever been to New York, but when I go, it will be with this book

clenched tightly in my little fist. Thanks to all the photographers

(especially Allen Ginsberg) and to Bill Morgan for this beautiful,

illuminating, transcendant walking tour.

 

diane de rooy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:11:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

 

In a message dated 97-10-23 17:01:25 EDT, you write:

 

<< > Yes, I felt that you did insult Bill terribly, and I felt It should be

 > answered. You did accuse him of censorship and using his position as

founder

 > of the list to promote one side of an dispute against the other.

 

 I have never said Bill supported one position or one side in this

 dispute, just that he specifically threatened to block one person from

 responding in self-defense to personal attacks.  That is a fact.  Not my

 opinion.  He did threaten to block Gerry Nicosia from posting.

  >>

 

Richard,

 

This is so familiar. When you misstate something and people call you on it,

you revise history by saying "That's not what I said..."

 

Here's your text below. You did use the word, "censor." How is a person

supposed to respond to that powerful verb?

 

"what have I done that is so bad?  All I was doing was trying to prevent

the caretaker of this list from censoring one of its subsribers (Nicosia

in this case) who was just trying to defend himself.  This was not a

personal attack on Bill Gargan.  I am sure Bill Gargan is a hell of a guy

and he does a terrific job with this list normally.  But nobody is

perfect, and he overreacted here, and by his own admission overstated his

ability to effectively police this list."

 

Later, you used the verb "to police." It's very clear you're using the power

of these words to make your case against what you define as repression of

free speech.

 

When you argue with people, why don't you do everyone (including yourself) a

favor and quote yourself? Cut and paste from your own letters, then respond.

That way maybe it will be clear to you just exactly what it was you said.

 

And, hey, Richard, there's no shame in being wrong. The shame is when you

can't admit it and move on.

 

Let it go, Richard.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:18:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

In-Reply-To:  <971023163559_1735129247@mrin46.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>hello,

>let me start off by saying that my name is kristina and i am a 19 year old in

>need of help. i am writing a research paper about William S. Burroughs novel j

>unky. i was wondering if you could help me by finding or offering critical

>opinions of the book for me as soon as possible. anything you could come up

>with would be greatly appreciated. thank you.

>sincerely,

>kristina ames              e-mail: ICYCHICK34@SOL.COM

 

Call Reference at the public, college, or university library. They'll steer

you to all the reviews of books by WSB.  These reviews will not substitute

for you reading the book(s) but it's better than nothing.

Reference will really provide help.

 

jo grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:20:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      City Lights...oops

 

<<avoid the voice mail yada yada: 416/362-8193).>>

 

too much drool on my keyboard. the area code is 415, not 416....

 

hee hee hee

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:30:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      In a nutshell...

Comments: To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997102315240777@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Mr. Gargan,

 

(this is *on* the list btw)

 

I mean no disrespect.  I appreciate Beat-L and think you have done a

superb job organizing it.  Beat-L is however an unmoderated list.  Your

recent threats to block posts, curtail discussion and .etc to stop

mudslinging is the work of a moderator.  If you wish this role, change

Beat-L to a moderated conference.  If you do not, if you wish this to be

an unmoderated conf as it has been, admit that you cannot moderate an

unmoderated conf.  And apologize to all concerned for threatening to do

so. To calla conf "unmoderated" and at the same time claim the role of

moderator is hypocritical.

 

If we respect each other, we do not need moderation.  Most mudslinging is

temporary and would not last.

 

I would like this dispute to end.  What I ask is reasonable.  I meant no

disrespect or anything I said to constitute a personal attack.

 

Subscribres of this list have been dragged through the mud, and it is not

right for you to allow these attacks to go on without admitting to what

you know are valid grievances.  This can end. You can end it.  Or this

list will suffer.

 

Again noone is disrespecting you, but as the organizer of this list, you

need to state pubicly that you will respect your subscribers concerns.

 

Richard Wallner

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?

i'll help.

junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and

started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because

he was so busy getting drunk and high.

all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to

class.

one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a

cockroach and started talking to him.

it ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,

and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.

great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.

hope i was a big help!

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:39:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> emote emote emote

> 

> i believe in cliques, i even would like to join one, i once visited a

> web site that suggested we could register as a johnson.  I did try to

> register but never heard anything back..  In some book of williams he

> mentions me as a johnson but i can't remember which book it was and my

> mother wants it.   She is 6 feet tall and very fierce.

>         when william did that, it made me gasp.  i quess then i felt a little

 funny because it is always dangerous to think you are on the side of the

 angels. It makes you fail to recognize a fucking angel when you meet him. You

 can do the most harm and bruise the peaches.

 

 i have been going over my boxes of crap in the basement and trying to

 catalogue them and place them in plastic sacks.  I hope this is the

 right thing to do as several people have told me that i need to take

 care of this crap.

 god it has been fun going through the boxes.  I had my wizard scan some

of the single sheets and want to post them.. now this is not personal mr

gargan, for i have come to admire you and your restraint, but i have

 failed at setting up my own web site for my picture gallery.  so if any

one wants to help me figure out a way to post these. email me

pelliott@sunflower.com

incoherently and sporadicaly yours

 patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:58:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: J Stauffer

In-Reply-To:  <344ECF90.1046@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Dear J. Stauffer,

 

You write..." ...the babbling of Gerry Nicosia...a violation of rudimentary

manners."

 

That surprised me.

 

I've seen Gerry Nicosia provoked to anger and IMO the anger justified, but

I've not read anything from him that I believe could be called "babbling,"

or that was a "violastion of rudimentary manners"--close maybe, but good

people get pushed too hard and too far sometimes.

 

Gerry has established himself as a writer and researcher who is held in

high regard. He was being honored for his work on Memory Babe long before

the book was published. For someone to step forward and literaly call him a

thief, dishonest, in-it-for-the-money, a liar, an anatagonistic

provocateur, untruthful, a dormant malignancy, a full-blown cancer, etc.

along with the direct quote from John Sampas--which I deleted and wiped

from my mind as being an outrage that would deserve shunning.

 

I have personally taken issue (directly) with Gerry for allowing a post by

one of the Sampas posse to trigger an angry response from him. However, my

criticism has been that he responded at all. Gerry may lose his cool, may

get angry, but he doesn't babble--doesn't talk "indistinctly,

meaninglessly, incoherently or like an idiot."

 

And quite frankly I sit here feeling pretty stupid even taking time to

respond--so much work to do. The whole thing has become painful. A casual

visitor could arrive and leave with impressions of Gerry that the list

members know are unwarranted.

 

Accusations made against me are ignored. I've been attacked by pros. I'm

too poor to sue, too aimless to die, too passive to punch, too fast to

kick, so old people don't believe it, with a history no one wants to take a

chance with and have a sense of humor. In the mid eighties the government

had me under oath asking me "Are you now,or have you ever been a member of

the Communist party?" I laughed so hard I peed in my pants. Anyone got a

problem with this old Scot? Get in line.

 

As for the estate controversy, I believe the information we have been

exposed to is important, but I do cringe when innuendo is substituted for

facts and civility ignored.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:35:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: The unpublished Kerouac

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Offhand...I know Buddha Tells Us was published serially in Tricycle

Magazine. Book of Sketches, bothe notebooks and typescript is in the New

York Public Library Berg Collection, The Night Is My Woman is indeed written

in French from 1951 but is regretably unfinished. Visions of Bill I'm not

sure of. Visions of Lucien exists solely as an idea never realized in any

form. Memory Babe, started in 1958, was never completed. The rest, as gerry

indicates, indeed do exist and are in various stages of completion towards

imminent publication. As fas as getting them out slowly, John Sampas has

been in charge since 1992 and has put out six books since he started. How

fast would you like them? Paul of TKQ....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:24:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Pull my daisy

MIME-Version: 1.0

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What is the history of this?  In scattered poems there are two versions

of the poem.  Isn't there a movie or something?  And what are you guys

looking for?  I would like to know more about the legend of Pull My

Daisy.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:23:17 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Pull my daisy

MIME-Version: 1.0

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hey bentz.

i do know that in my bootleg copy of "beat jazz: pictures from the

gone world"  snite ellis w/david amram  sing a slightly different

version called "the crazy daisy" which is very cool as well. in

scattered poems, (sorry a friend borrowed it and has yettogive it back)

i think there are two or three different versions, each a little more

risque than the other, that were composed by allen ginsberg, neal

cassady and (obviosly) jack kerouac). i would guess that the big

two and neal wrote a few different versions together while high and

someone passed it along to snite ellis, who has a nice voice. anyone

else have some corrections or additions?

randy

 

> What is the history of this?  In scattered poems there are two versions

> of the poem.  Isn't there a movie or something?  And what are you guys

> looking for?  I would like to know more about the legend of Pull My

> Daisy.

> 

> Peace,

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> 

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:22:27 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:00 -0400 from

              <Icychick34@AOL.COM>

 

Check out Eric Mottram's book "The Algebra of Need."  It's a good place to star

t.  I'd give you additional suggestions but I think you'll find other sources f

rom different listmembers.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:24:35 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:50:50 -0400 from

              <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

 

Tax payers also pay for the fire engines.  But we don't get to drive them and r

ide on them.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:29:13 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: The unpublished Kerouac

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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thanks for the verifaction. on regards to speed, slow down! i know

this  sounds strange but some people just started the hole beat genre

and need alot of catching up to do.

randy

> Offhand...I know Buddha Tells Us was published serially in Tricycle

> Magazine. Book of Sketches, bothe notebooks and typescript is in the New

> York Public Library Berg Collection, The Night Is My Woman is indeed written

> in French from 1951 but is regretably unfinished. Visions of Bill I'm not

> sure of. Visions of Lucien exists solely as an idea never realized in any

> form. Memory Babe, started in 1958, was never completed. The rest, as gerry

> indicates, indeed do exist and are in various stages of completion towards

> imminent publication. As fas as getting them out slowly, John Sampas has

> been in charge since 1992 and has put out six books since he started. How

> fast would you like them? Paul of TKQ....

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:20:38 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Diane De Rooy wrote:

 

> Richard,

> 

> This is so familiar. When you misstate something and people call you on

> it, you revise history by saying "That's not what I said..."

> Here's your text below. You did use the word, "censor." How is a person

> supposed to respond to that powerful verb?

> 

> >  "what have I done that is so bad?  All I was doing was trying to

> > prevent the caretaker of this list from censoring one of its

> > subsribers (Nicosia in this case) who was just trying to defend

> > himself.  This was not a personal attack on Bill Gargan.  I am sure

> > Bill Gargan is a hell of a guy and he does a terrific job with this

> >  list normally. But nobody is perfect, and he overreacted here, and

> > by his own admission overstated his

> > ability to effectively police this list."

> 

> Later, you used the verb "to police." It's very clear you're using the

> power of these words to make your case against what you define as >

> repression of free speech.

> 

> When you argue with people, why don't you do everyone (including

> yourself) a favor and quote yourself? Cut and paste from your own

> letters, then respond.

> That way maybe it will be clear to you just exactly what it was you

> said.

> 

> And, hey, Richard, there's no shame in being wrong. The shame is when

> you can't admit it and move on.

> 

> Let it go, Richard.

 

And if we are talking about facts, Richard Wallner in several posts,

including the one you quoted above says, "This was not a personal attack

on Bill Gargan."  And yet in one of his posts, dated 10/22, he says, "It

is a worthwhile list and doesn't deserve to be killed by a power hungry

would-be moderator...Just sit back and watch the debate and if you can't

stomach it Mr. Gargan, just hit delete."

 

To me, calling someone a "power hungry would be moderator" is definitely

a personal attack, and Levi Asher was right on target in his response.

 

Richard, if you want to keeping arguing about this crap, do it with

yourself, and let the rest of us get back to discussing beat literature.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:08:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: hi cathie!

 

you can get the Pull my Daisy video simply by calling 1-800-kerouac, and

ordering a catatlogue. they've got great stuff like posters and t-shirts and

books you can't find in most bookstores like "as ever" the correspondence

between NC and AG. thats on my list to get next, when i get some cash.

hope that helped. take care.

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:30:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Does anybody have a copy of Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia for sale?

I saw it on a first edition of Memory babe and I would like to read it.

It's subtitle, as indicated by www.amazon.com is " An Intimate Portrait of

Gay Hustling in Chicago." I am not sure of the publisher or year of

publication. Thanks...Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:18:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      losing it....

 

dear list,

i'm about at the end of my rope with all these off subject posts. i joined

the list this past summer and was so thrilled to be discussing the literature

that i love. I'm probably younger than most on the list (18) and maybe its my

innocence, but i'm dying to get back to the real reason we subscribed here.

This is my plea. I sent out a poem in hopes to pacify everyone and lift

spirits, but that didn't work. i've gotten no comments and my mail is filled

with asinine bickering. Everybody has something to say, and its i'm being

attacked, no you're being attacked, who has the power here, you have no power

here and so forth. Its enough to drive me mad! I feel like I'm back in

highschool. This is sad. Can't we make peace through our common love of the

Beats? I'm begging here.

 

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:46:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: More Di Prima

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> FOR PIGPEN

> Velvet at the edge of the tongue,

> at the edge of the brain,it was

> velvet.  At the edge of history.

> 

> Sound was light.  Like tracing

> ancient letter w/yr toe on the

> floor of the ballroom.

> They came & went, hotel guests

> like the Great Gatsby.

> And wondered at the music.

>         Sound was light.

> 

> jagged sweeps of discordant

> Light. Aurora borealis over

> some cemetery.  A bark. A howl.

> At the edge of history & there was

>         no time

> 

> shouts. trace circles

> of breath.  All futures.  Time

> was this light & sound

> spilled out of it.

> 

>         Flickered

> & fell under blue windows.  False drawn.

> And too much wind.

> 

>         We come round.

> Make circles.  Blank as a clock.

> Spill velvet damage on the edge

> of history.

 

James,

 

This is an excellent poem.  Is it in one of her books or an anthology?

Does anyone know if she explores this circle/history/time theme in other

poems?  Also really interesting is her use of "sound is light."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:41:10 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: losing it....

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Indeed Marlene,

 

I was referrd here by Dr. Rod Phillips, someone who was well respected

on this list and I like veryone else thought that Beat relaed topics

would dominate the discussion.  However, i soon found it was no better

than the political policy class I am in.  Who has what power, where,

when and over exactly what bounds can he step....  This is lame.

Who cares if Kerouac wanted people to argue none of us do.

Amen Marlene

Keith

 

 

 

>dear list,

>i'm about at the end of my rope with all these off subject posts. i

joined

>the list this past summer and was so thrilled to be discussing the

literature

>that i love. I'm probably younger than most on the list (18) and maybe

its my

>innocence, but i'm dying to get back to the real reason we subscribed

here.

>This is my plea. I sent out a poem in hopes to pacify everyone and lift

>spirits, but that didn't work. i've gotten no comments and my mail is

filled

>with asinine bickering. Everybody has something to say, and its i'm

being

>attacked, no you're being attacked, who has the power here, you have no

power

>here and so forth. Its enough to drive me mad! I feel like I'm back in

>highschool. This is sad. Can't we make peace through our common love of

the

>Beats? I'm begging here.

> 

>~~Marlene

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:08:22 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      sigh

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

well i swore i wouldn't take the bait again, but

mr walner:

have you ever stopped to thnk that most people probably don't want you and your

hysterics and your egoism on this list by now?

like you've been told before:

it's bill's list.

you are an ass, sir.

g'night.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:33:12 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: More Di Prima

 

Diane - di Prima's "For Pigpen" is in Pieces of a Song.  i'm no expert on her,

but cyclical themes do see to come up often (she seems to be pretty heavy into

Eastern spirituality/mysticism).  i'll go through the book a little bit more

tonight if i get a chance and see if that triple theme comes up regularly and

post what, if anything, i find.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:54:45 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: sigh

 

i suggest we all stop responding to this garbage.  then it will die of it's

own accord.  those of you who know me, know i have the patience of Job.

however, Richard, you have succeeded in making me completely annoyed and

pissed off.  if you can't let it drop, then fuck off.

 

ok, i feel better.  now let's not respond any more if he posts any further on

this particular subject.  exercise your delete keys with impunity!  he will

get tired of talking to himself.

 

Avalokitesvara (also my special deity) bless this lovely list!

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:16:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Wichita Vortex an update

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

well a guy i met in lawrence at the memorial service who is a friend of

C. Plymell's in Wichita is going to show me some things in wichita that

i might not find just wandering ... and if i can find a native american

gem salesman that i've known for years I may just show CP's friend a

side of Wichita that he doesn't yet know about!!!

 

it may actually include a few things besides truckstops to write about

:) :) :) wish me luck!!!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:43:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

 

If you all will entertain a motion from the floor... <ahem> I'd like to

suggest you just ignore the squeaky wheels and go on with your thoughts on

Beat-L.

 

It's amazing how powerfully a haranguing voice (like a two-year-old throwing

a tantrum) can command all of one's attention, even stopping a person in

his/her tracks and effectively overthrowing the kingdom of intelligent

discourse in the process.

 

Nations aren't all taken down by big old H-bombs, but by the infiltration of

garbage into the collective consciousness, forcing a focus onto trivial

thought, away from planning and dreaming and sharing.

 

Takes two to tango. My advice? Sit this one out.

 

diane

====================

If I had a signature on my email it would be:

"Never mud-wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:50:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      New Kerouac Bibliography

Mime-Version: 1.0

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As many on this list are aware, I have been working on a new Kerouac

bibliography for many years.  It is based on my collection and the other

fine Kerouac collections I have been lucky enough to examine.

 

The new bibliography will add many primary items ("A" items) that Charters

missed.  It will also correct the numerous mistakes and typos in her book.

In addition, it will add all the new material that has been published since

her book.

 

The periodical section will also look quite different.  It will contain

numerous and many early appearances by Kerouac that Charters did not list.

Of course, his worked has appeared in many additional periodicals over the

past 20 years.

 

Finally, the translation section will be vastly enlarged.  This is an area

that I take much pride in.  I have found many translations unknown to

Charters.  My own collection of translations is quite large.

 

If you have any information that you think I might not know about, please

feel free to e-mail me at ileif@ix.netcom.com

 

Irving Leif

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:38:00 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      back to beat

MIME-Version: 1.0

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For the new people on the list, who wonder why we are interested in

the beats, and for the rest of us so that we never lose sight of the

dream for too long, here are three passages by Jack Kerouac:

 

Lamb, No Lion, 1958

 

"...Beat doesn't mean tired, or bushed, so much as it means 'beato,' the

Italian for beatific: to be in a state of beatitude, like St. Francis,

trying to to love all life, trying to be utterly sincere with everyone,

practicing endurance, kindness, cultivating joy of heart.  How can this

be done in our mad, modern world of multiplicities and millions?  By

practicing a little solitude, going off my yourself once in a while to

store up that most precious of golds; the vibrations of sincerity...

 

...After publishing my book about the beat generation I was asked to

explain beatness on TV, on radio, by people everywhere.  They were all

under the impression that being beat was just a lot of frantic nowhere

hysteria.  What are you searching for? they asked me.  I answered that I

was waiting for God to show his face. (Later I got a letter from a

16-year old girl saying that was exactly what she had been waiting for

too.)  They asked: How could this have anything to do with mad hepcats? I

answered that even mad hepcats with all their kicks and chicks and hep

talk were creatures of God laid out here in this infinite universe

without knowing what for.  And besides I have never heard more talk about

God, the Last Things, the soul, the where-we-are-going than among kids of

my generation and not the intellectual kids alone, all of them.  In the

faces of my questioners was the hopeless question: But Why?...

 

I prophesy that the Beat Generation which is supposed to be nutty

nihilism in the guise of new hipness, is going to be the most sensitive

generation in the history of America and therefore it can't help but do

good.  Whatever wrong comes will come out of evil interference.  If there

is any quality that I have noticed more strongly than anything else in

this generation, it is the spirit of non-interference with the lives of

others.  I had a dream that I didn't want the lion to eat the lamb and

the lion came up and lapped my face like a big puppy dog and then I

picked up the lamb and it kissed me.  This is the dream of the beat

generation."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:43:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      more t-shirts!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi, everyone,

        I'm beginning to think my true calling was to sell t-shirts, judging

by all the emails I'm getting.  It sure beats the hell out of being a

biographer, literary executor, and archive champion.

        Anyway, while emptying out the cupboards of Kerouac T-shirts, I came

across three brand-new T's that had been donated by Last Gasp (SF comic book

and counterculture distributor) to one of my Kerouac events.  These are kind

of wild, off-the-wall T's, all Hanes beefy T's.  I'll gladly get rid of them

for $10 apiece postpaid, and consider the money contributed to the MEMORY

BABE ARCHIVE RECOVERY fund.

        There is:

        1) Zippy the Pinhead, large, full color on white cloth, saying, "All

life is a blur of Republicans and meat."

        2)"Bad Habits" -- black T, XL (46-48) full color illustration of

ditzy blond with gun and cocktail and businessman type guy smoking five

cigarettes, holding a martini and drug vile in other hand.  Balloons and

party decorations and spilled bottle decor.

        3) white t, large, a triumphant colonel Sanders with foot on bloody

chicken bucket and holding ax dripping blood in one hand and bloody headless

chicken in the other--definitely for the more macabre or black-humor types

among you.

        That's all I've got, folks!

        Please confirm your order with me before sending check and also to

get my address if you don't have it.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:46:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: more t-shirts!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

well finely a new thread.

 

i wore my precious beat-l tee shirt when i read in austin, and it gave

me powerrrrr.

 maybe i should wear the zippy one if i decide to read in topeka.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:59:07 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971022142017.20380A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

this may be true in new jersey, but my best friend works at a b dalton in

omaha and they keep all copies of OTR locked up in the safe because every

copy that went onto the shelves was stolen. (it was the only book that

anyoone ever seemed to steal at their store.) they also had a heck of a

time even getting some f the darma in! (finally got my copy though. looks

good so far.)

 

i'm glad your store is beat friendly. my experience with that company is

that they are not typically this way.

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE

"Someone must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having

done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:

 

> hi folks,

>         i work for B Dalton Books which is affiliated with B&N and let me

> just say that we never keep any books behind our counter. Our jack

> kerouac section is always well stocked with the latest releases which

> included the recent 40th anniversary edition of On the Road. Perhaps some

> stores have policies regarding this issue but in my case (A N.J. store

> inside a mall) we don't practice that type of customer service. This

> includes William Burrough's books which have dominated two shelves on

> their own in the fiction section. And reecently i have been on the

> mission to order The Beat Generation trading cards by Tundra Press (i

> think its Tundra) which is a rare item to find but nevertheless something

> we should sell to the public. All in all, my B.Dalton store is a beatnik

> haven.

>                                         jason

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:08:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022160541.604A@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

richard,

 

have you considered switching to a decafinated blend?

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE

"Someone must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having

done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> > Mr. Wallner, I own the list.  I started it and when I choose I will shut it

>  dow

> > n.  Start your own list if you like.

> >

> 

> Mr. Gargan, you do not own the individual email addresses of everyone on

> this list.  Go ahead and shut it down.  You cant stop the members of this

> list from collectivley communicating with each other.

> 

> So shut it down.  I have archives of this list, I can put together a list

> of all the addresses and start it back up almost as fast as you can kill

> it.   The only difference is that I would never consider mysef more than

> just another participant.  I wouldnt bully people off the list, threaten

> others or claim the right to determine which subject matter is appropriate.

> 

>   This list exsists because of the people on it.  You can change the

> forwarding address.  You cant kill it, not as long as we want it to go on.

> 

> since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it.  Period.

> 

> RJW

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 03:43:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it.  Period.

>> 

>> RJW

 

 

Hmm, feels like I never left... {;^>

 

Mike

 

PS. Hello to any old friends out there - and to any new

ones!!  It was a nice 5 and a half month beat-l break!!

If anyone has tried to contact me in the last few

months and I didn't reply to your message, it's probably

because I never got to them (too busy with school shit,

etc., and kinda lost track of my email).  Sorry!!

Neil, if you're still out there, get in touch...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:56:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: losing it....

 

marlene...you've said it all..."from the mouths of babes..."  don't let this

talk get you down kid.  kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs and the rest belong to

people like you.  certainly not what's going on here.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:15:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James J Stavola <JDSept@AOL.COM>

Subject:      What Happened??????

 

        Did I get lost in the late night suffle? Haven't recieved a posting

for 3 days.Is it something I said or did? Or is it one of those nasty

computer gods doing their tricks on us?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:16:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Tom Waits-On the Road

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Stephen Ronan (beat archivist/writer extraordinaire) mentions in this

months issue of Dharma Beat Magazine about the release by Geffen Records of

a previously unheard recording of Jack Kerouac reading from "On the Road".

He goes on to state "There is every reason to suspect that this is the

greatest sustained recording by Kerouac and the release will be another

milestone in the publication of his work."

This guy really knows his stuff as his "Discography of the Beat Generation

- Disks of the Gone World" will attest. I hope he keeps us informed. I also

found this on Tom Waits page-

 

Geffen Records will release a Jack Kerouac album in early 1998. This album

will feature rare recordings by Jack Kerouac, but it will also include the

song "On The Road". The music to this was written by Tom Waits and will

feature Jack Kerouac with Tom Waits and the members of Primus performing

the music behind it. This track was recorded earlier this year at Prairie

Sun Studios in Northern California.

 

This is exciting stuff. If anyone has anymore info on this keep us

informed. Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:40:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: work in progress (very early early in process) please make

              suggestions  Post #1

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

>=20

> SALINA:  The FireWalk Saga a Retrospective Rambling.....

>=20

> =93ONCE I was young and had so much more orientation and could talk wit=

h

> nervous intelligence about everything and with clarity and without as

> much literary preambling as this;  in other words this is the story of

> an unself-confident man, at the same time of an egomaniac, naturally,

> facetious won=92t do -- just to start at the beginning and let the trut=

h

> seep out, that=92s what I=92ll do --.  It began on a warm summernight -=

-

> ......=94

>                                                 Jack Kerouac,  The Subt=

erraneans

>=20

> =93You see control can never be a means to any practical end . . . It c=

an

> never be a means to anything but more control . . . Like junk . . .=94

>                                                 William S. Burroughs, J=

r.,  Naked Lunch

>=20

> =93The sword of discovery goes before the couch of laughter.  One sneer=

s

> by modifying a snarl;  one smiles by modifying a sneer.  You should hav=

e

> lived twice, and smiled the second time.=94

>                                                 Kenneth Burke,  Towards=

 a Better Life

>=20

> June 30, 1997.  HOT HOT HOT Summer afternoon in Salina -- the journal

> predicted something around 98 degrees for a high today.  The affective

> level of heat goes far far beyond temperature.  I can feel a storm

> coming here on the plains for days and days before the arrival.  Some

> form of sinus injury it appears -- perhaps some form of affective scar

> of the previously disclosed FireWalk thru Madness.  At any rate,

> yesterday the storm that had been coming and the waiting that was

> leaving me nearly incapacitated hit Salina and it was barely a storm at

> all.  It was a downpour for certain but the length of time that the

> universe opened and dropped itself wet and wild on the plains was

> nothing like what was necessary or even acceptable.  It seems the

> farmers and the universe are having a battle of wills over precipitatio=

n

> and something around here which they call Harvest that I know next to

> nothing about though I probably should given that i=92m something of a

> native but I don=92t and so I feel the universe=92s side of the battle =

from

> the scars of the FireWalk and not the farmer=92s angle and so as a resu=

lt

> my sinuses control my being and I am incapacitated in a way that is

> unnatural for a thirty-five year old man.

>=20

> Looking back on the FireWalk thru Madness, there is much I can smile

> about this second time around -- but today on this afternoon one of

> those things has little to do with smiles -- perhaps sneers and snarls

> at a self-imposed control that Monday is =93Clean the Bathroom day=94 w=

hich

> is horribly significant in my current project of returning to the livin=

g

> (the re-entry suggested back in Colt-45 appears to have been far from

> compleat and only now am I beginning to become spatially connected to

> what philosopher priests might call the HERE or the NOW or the often

> combined HERE & NOW).  And since it is afternoon, the other scar that i=

s

> more than a daily ritual but a near physiological necessity and control=

s

> my being which most people don=92t understand at all is coming on.

> Siesta.  Everyday a siesta of undetermined length.  And many speak of

> envy and whatnot but they simply don=92t understand that this scar of t=

he

> FireWalk has little to do with the lazy and pleasant freedom

> traditionally associated with the term siesta and maybe I shouldn=92t e=

ven

> call it that.  This is a matter of control of my body and its rhythms

> and is a necessity for anything approaching Koyanisquatsi or whatever

> that word for balancing act is.  So in Salina a town in Kansas that

> contains some of my roots i=92m recovering from the re-entry of the

> projections mentioned in FireWalk and looking back over my shoulder in =

a

> retrospective glance on that saga and realizing that the control of the

> siesta this scar of the journey is overwhelming even the desire, want o=

r

> need to begin rambling about the connections of FireWalk then and

> FireWalk now and beginning to understand what intrapersonal ecology is

> an the sacredness of space beginning with the morning ritual of

> showering in the sacred place called bathroom though I may never take a

> bath in there.

>=20

> It all starts with an awareness of scene.  I have almost none.  FireWal=

k

> was all about escaping time I suppose.  What I called images were hardl=

y

> anything close to scenery.  I don=92t even have the vocabulary to descr=

ibe

> scene and yet here in Salina in my introduction to space into the HERE

> things will begin with scene.  The scene is a small room at the back of

> my apartment 23.  It is my bathroom.  It is hardly a place yet and not

> part of anything called a home and yet it is getting closer as my

> awareness improves and I begin to act within the frame of the scene

> rather than standing outside the bubble condemning plasticity as an

> observer and non-participant in the reality of living.  I guess it is

> about time as well -- that is part of the scene and the time is a

> chronological concept that i=92m beginning to live within at the edge

> moving inward in the notions of morning ritual and weekly ritual and

> starting in the scene of the bathroom in the beginning of the day and o=

f

> the week.

>=20

> Now this all started with an experiment which I call Experimental

> Showering which is recorded in a 17 page report with an accompanying

> soundtrack which might be exposed to the light of day sometime but is

> not that important now, here.  What is of some importance is that as a

> result of the experiments I have begun to find a sense of place that is

> approaching ritual sacredness and it is a place i=92m aware of and act =

to

> maintain ecologically and it is a place where I maintain myself

> ecologically and it is conventionally called a bathroom but for the tim=

e

> being it might be my temple.  And in this place of which I will begin t=

o

> describe the scenery at some point in this rambling I am beginning to

> undergo the necessary transformations to living within the spatial

> dimensions of a real environment in the sacred realm and the extensions

> to other spatial dimensions of varying kind, form, scene all the way I

> suppose to the profane but the sacred temple provides a place of

> grounding that connects me to living within the circle of accepted

> reality.

>=20

> I=92d said it started with scene.  Well when you rent an apartment as I

> have rented this place titled number 23, you don=92t really choose the

> scene, you don=92t create it.  The basic dimension of reality is provid=

ed

> to the tenant and the tenant -- myself -- must work within certain

> parameters and talents to create a sense of the sacred in the entirety

> of the place that is something like home.  The temple-like sacredness

> towards which the bathroom is moving is beyond home though it is within

> home it is in construction towards something beyond home and the entire

> apartment is in construction towards home and I am in construction

> towards becoming a human being.  Funny -- the snarl & sneer turn to

> smile -- in the FireWalk a giant kicks me into a patch of clover and I

> announce something about home -- but at the time and even to this day

> i=92ve lived outside of a reality which includes home some sort of

> wandering pilgrim on a quest for a proper roost but finding fault

> sufficient with each along the path and never considering Action that

> might improve the roost.

>=20

> So the scene is the home the the roost and the tired pilgrim under

> construction and the bathroom moving beyond home while the apartment

> moves towards home but what of the vocabulary of scenery.  See I still

> have not provided anything of an image proper and it is a circular path

> downward from the clouds where I have lived to even begin to provide

> description let alone detail of a particular place of a scene of a

> simple room in apartment 23.

>=20

> It is small.

> It is a bathroom.

> Can you see it

> in your mind?

> Do you have a

> picture

> of a bathroom

> BUT

> what if it is nothing

> like

> my bathroom

> what if your

> whole understanding of

> this story

> with bathroom as

> protagonist is blocked

> at the outset

> because the portrait in your mind of this particular

> bathroom

> is nothing at all like the particular bathroom - in Fact?

> And it would be my error

> not yours

> because as of yet i=92ve been unable to go very far,

> to go anywhere at all -- really -- in providing a detailed description

> of this bathroom

> this particular bathroom in this particular apartment which you only

> know by its

> number 23.

>=20

> And so if these meandering thoughts are to have a plot at all, in the

> outset at least, the plot is the discovery of the bathroom, the

> construction of the bathroom to the point of the sacred, the

> reconstruction of the apartment named =93Number 23=94 to something akin=

 to

> Home base in the great games of Kosmic tag my mind sometimes wanders

> through.  But for now at least, the bathroom is the protagonist and I a=

m

> all the other parts, the observer, the construction worker, the interio=

r

> design specialist.  It is a solitary story of a young man and a

> bathroom.  An odd story that I imagine it will be.

>=20

> I=92ve titled this meandering rambling prose Salina at the outset becau=

se

> in many ways even though so far I am writing about a bathroom in an

> apartment named #23 that COULD exist any many many places in the

> universe, this particular apartment named #23 and this particular

> bathroom within it are situated in a Place named Salina in a state

> called Kansas.  And this Place is significant to me personally in that

> it is the town in which I came of age - but perhaps never made it to

> what we call of age.  It seems that I somehow avoided the examination o=

n

> basic environmental awareness, of basis orientation which ought be part

> of any curriculum of living and I avoided and would have flunked and

> been continually held back.  So perhaps if the bathroom ever reaches th=

e

> point of shrine or temple, and the apartment named #23 reaches the poin=

t

> of being a home, then perhaps if my fingers are still hitting the keys

> the scene will broaden further and further to examine a scene named

> Salina.  At present my description of Salina is that one pretends that

> =93Eisenhower is still President and that the Pledge of Allegiance is a

> Good or Nice poem.=94  Several have wholeheartedly agreed with this not=

ion

> and said that it makes Salina seem more liveable with this realization

> -- But typical of my descriptions so far in the FireWalk and other

> writings it tells you nothing about Salina.  So there is a hope that

> this writer will eventually compleat his construction process in the

> bathroom and in the rest of the apartment named #23 and move outward to

> discover and detail a larger circle of his scene that is a town named

> Salina.

>=20

> It is a funny, backward twist of conception that I find myself in.  For

> a number of reasons that I will leave to the therapists of various

> characters, I am more aware and understanding of potential human action

> at the level of the universe, the globe, the nation than I am in of the

> various plots and subplots of regional and town life here in the Place

> where I supposedly came of Age.  Untwisting this knot seems an

> interesting project and hopefully a worthwhile tale to tell to y=92all

> whoever you are and where-ever you are.  And I imagine that the

> connections we find in my older writings where images are connected in

> archetypal symbols at best will be strengthened despite the separation

> that will be created by the characterization of this particular bathroo=

m

> and this particular apartment named #23 in a town named Salina.

>=20

> So back to the bathroom.  Up into now my description of a bathroom woul=

d

> be primarily focused on notions of function or purpose.  I would have

> been caught up in =93the idea of the bathroom=94 and my writing on bath=

rooms

> is relatively rare but there is no sense of any difference really

> between one bathroom and another because my mentality -- and it is a

> mentality -- was basically one of a bathroom is a bathroom much in the

> sense of if it quacks like a duck it is a duck.  Well such a sterile

> world this creates for anyone who even pretends to be a living human

> being.

>=20

> At the end of Colt-45 I proclaimed: =93I lived.=94  Any dead man can sa=

y

> that -- the epitath on his tombstone doing the talking.  To say that =93=

I

> am living=94 is a more difficult claim and requires stepping inside the

> portrait of the living ... the great play on the great stage that is th=

e

> living.  It might require actions -- although inaction itself may be a

> form of action -- but it needs a sense of scene of connection to the

> ground one walks on.  It is hard to be anything but a mis-fit when one=92=

s

> mind defies gravity and one=92s awareness allows one to walk five feet =

off

> the ground.

>=20

> So part of this whole construction process is about grounding.  And

> grounding is an important concept in notions of electrical engineering

> of which I am ignorant and grounding is a sense of rootedness in some

> pagan thought which i=92ve walked through five feet above the ground

> without being sufficiently impressed to take root.  It seems that the

> grounding, the rootedness, the bathroom is the temple the sacred place

> that connects so many of us in the universe in so many ways.  In the

> general sense, abstract sense, archetypal sense the bathroom is perhaps

> the place where all of us are close to alike in our use of a Place for =

a

> Function.  A bathroom is where rituals of elimination and cleansing

> occur.  This is true in most bathrooms that i=92ve witnessed regardless=

 of

> the scene.  BUT --

>=20

> the scene is part of the tale and in this instance the bathroom is the

> protagonist in a larger scene and I promise that at some point I will

> learn how to go beyond the brief descriptions offered so far concerning

> the characteristics of this particular bathroom in this particular

> apartment named #23 in this particular town named Salina.

>=20

> what is this madman up to now???  some may wonder this and I may be

> wondering this myself.  and to be honest since the tale is just

> beginning and the scene is still under construction and the action is

> the construction of the setting and the characters - so far at least -

> are the setting it is probably obvious to all that have made it thus fa=

r

> that the madman is up to something and the madman and the readers have

> no clue what it is.  Perhaps the particular bathroom in the particular

> apartment named #23 in the particular place called a town named Salina

> has a better sense of what is going on than the fingers striking the

> keys.

>=20

> Actually, this would not be surprising because the owner of these

> fingers has No Sense.  In many many respects he is a Moron.

>=20

> He is a Moron.

>=20

> Moron is a pejorative term with connotations that would make just about

> anyone including the owner of these fingers to shirk and hide from the

> reality of its label -- but it is not supposed to be a pejorative term.

> It is supposed to be a descriptive term -- merely a statement of Fact.

> And that is how it is used here.  The owner of these fingers accepts

> that he factually is a Moron.  This is a revelation.  The control of

> Moron may be impossible to break but it certainly cannot be broken

> without the acceptance of the Fact of the state of being named Moron.

>=20

> And yet despite the Fact that he is a Moron the bathroom allows him to

> be regardless of this status.  The bathroom is not prejudiced.

>=20

> So the bathroom is small.  maybe if I begin with something of a floor

> plan in words I can start to provide an image of what this particular

> bathroom appears to look like.  I will warn that I was a very very poor

> drafting student - along with all other aspects of junior high shop.  I

> lacked the precision necessary for such arts.  Also I must confess that

> I have nothing approximating a tape measure.

>=20

> So for purposes of tape measure I will use the picture in your mind of =

a

> fairly ordinary size bathtub.  It is crammed into the deep end of the

> room sideways taking up all available floor space.  So the width of the

> small bathroom is length of a fairly ordinary size bathtub and not a

> cubit more.  The rest is where description becomes more complicated for

> me and I will do my best to provide some sensation of the general floor

> plan.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:43:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Bill Morgan's book: First Printing sold out

 

I was chatting with Bill this morning, asking him how book sales were going.

He told me City Lights had already sold out the first run of 3,000 copies and

it's gone back for its second printing. I can certainly understand why.

 

I was reading it last night at bedtime, and again when I got up this morning.

Even the description I posted to Beat-L yesterday doesn't do the book

justice.

 

I think Bill's book is going to become a classic of Beat scholarship.

 

Again, it's titled "The Beat Generation in New York," and it was just

released a few days ago by City Lights. You can order a copy by calling them

at 415/362-8193.

 

This would make a great topic for discussion on our list. I hope a bunch of

you order it soon, and we can share the joy of reading it as we connect these

places to historic Beat events and personages.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:41:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: work in progress (comments appreciated) #2

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RACE --- wrote:

>=20

> Of course, it isn=92t two dimensional.  This is a floor plan.  I=92ll t=

ry

> and figure out the height in some way soon.

>=20

> The length of the bathroom from back to the entrance wall is roughly

> turning the ordinary size bathtrub sizeways and then addeding some

> length.  How much additional length?  Not a lot but enough that the roo=

m

> doesn=92t seem to be a square or cube.  More than a shoebox - with the

> shoebox in either direction.  I think the best technical word will be

> for the moment -- a little longer.

>=20

> So that is the basic two dimensional floor plan.  As I said it is small

> because it also has the components of a bathroom in it.

>=20

> Before going beyond the floor plannish sense of the room i=92m going to

> move my brain back a bit to the subtitle here and attempt to explain ho=

w

> all this bathroom description has to do with a retrospective, a

> remembrance, a backward glance at the writings I did around five years

> ago collected under the title among other things FireWalk Thru Madness.

> In that writing I took folks through the door into chaos -- open wide -=

-

> without them having to risk their own psyches.  My psyche on the other

> hand was already quite at risk because the commentaries there were for

> the most part not fictional accounts but fairly real anecdotes and

> legendary tales of my factual experiences outside the world of fact.

>=20

> My writing now is somewhat of a twiting and reversing in the

> recollection process the retrospective will hopefully embrace creativit=

y

> once again but this time creativity will be a tool to return from chaos

> to a concrete contained world.  The doors to chaos once opened can

> always be re-entered, but one wants some choice in the when and where o=

f

> such events.  The bathroom is the first step in an interior design

> project a very concrete creative project that imagines moving the

> fragments of my psyche still left behind in the realms of chaos back

> into the present world of the living.  It is an experiment.  One never

> knows in such experiments what will suceed and fail.  But armed with a

> bathroom and the good old American creative method of trial and error I

> will try to create a protagonist out of the bathroom which can contain

> the memories of FireWalk retaining the art of the chaos without losing

> the stability and self-containment of concrete existence.

>=20

> Now did that make ANY sense to ANY one?

>=20

> Brief Dream of company.  Sal, Dean, and Carlo.  I was in the bathroom

> improving connections.  I pushed them out out out of the living room of

> apartment #23 saying =93The Bathroom isn=92t even ready Yet.=94  I don=92=

t know

> if they were real, and  I don=92t know if their feelings were hurt -- b=

ut

> the bathroom is the protagonist, at least until the wins chainge.  Old

> Bull Lee had the sense not to come to this particular apartment named

> #23 before the vortex released an invitation.

>=20

> So this is nearing the physical description of the particular bathroom

> in the apartment named #23.  The ceiling is taller than my outstretched

> arm.  It is probably taller than the width of the room and perhaps even

> the length.  So the room is nearly a cube.  And I rented the apartment

> with the bathroom in construction -- I frankly don=92t remember what wa=

s

> being done because I didn=92t pay attention to such matters with my hea=

d

> always in the clouds. -- and as things continue to unfold in the

> bathroom and the rest of the apartment named #23 and the universe named

> Salina I will gradually come back to the soul of the experience the

> bathroom where the designs are creating my way back from chaos.

>=20

> Now the cocoon that was my life just a few moments back or perhaps

> months had almost closed to the point of limiting my life to the living

> room couch.  The couch is where I lived.  Any other place might be an

> area I had to walk through from time to time, but I was completely and

> totally unaware of the environment around me and unaware of my

> ecological connection to these spaces and places.  I was merely passing

> thru.  Much like one passes thru the fire in the firewalk.  A lack of

> awareness leaves one far far far from anything akin to action.  At most

> the unaware function in the realm of motion -- like leaves falling from

> the trees -- but the awareness of ecological connection is not

> sufficient to produce action.  Action is an entirely separate stage.

> The bathroom in the apartment #23 was in the realm of motion.  I

> pissed.  I shit.  That was it.  I paid no attention to these processes

> and was unaware of the surroundings.  These were like leaves falling

> from the trees.  The place was not important except that it was a

> bathroom.  The action was related only to a purpose and not to an

> environment, a space, a place.  I walked out of the HERE of the Present

> everytime I left my couch.

>=20

> How did I move beyond the cocoon and into the awareness.  The first

> measure was not awareness but action.  Action led to awareness which le=

d

> to disgust and more awareness and action and the actions spilled into

> levels of awareness and action never dreamed of in the blackness of my

> couch cocoon existence.  The action was a form of contract I suppose

> between myself and another involving the bathroom.  I resolved to take =

a

> shower every morning for a week.  What follows will be the journal

> connected to that action and the subsequent awareness and actions in

> part most initially correlated to a Place called the bathroom in a

> particular place called My bathroom in a particular apartment named #23

> -- which I could not call MY apartment yet for the mine-ness involves

> more than paying the rent check.  Mine-ness involves the creative activ=

e

> of inventing one=92s order, one=92s home.  And the process may be days,

> weeks, months, years, one never knows with such notions of

> Transfiguration.  But with every drop of water from the shower -- the

> extent and direction of Transfiguration appears to alter the course of

> my awareness and encourage actions away from the cocoon.  So as Firewal=

k

> begins with a discussion of Fire as essential element -- this journey

> back begins with another essential element Water the power within it to

> soothe, cool, cleanse and douse(sp?) flames.

>=20

> The morning breaks each day and the water comes in the shaving, the

> brushing of teeth, the showering -- even the morning coffee.  This is

> how the bathroom in the particular apartment named #23 was discovered.

> The wakefulness creates an awareness of the immediate surroundings.  An=

d

> what did I discover?

>=20

> So far i=92ve only described the dimensions of the bathroom in general

> terms.  I believe you have a sense of where the shower is -- the tub

> seems too small for an adult and has the old chrome doors to mark off

> the showering area from the remainder of the room.  The tile in the

> shower is pink.  Not hot pink, a softer pink but pink nonetheless.  And

> the pink extends out of the shower to the sink area -- is this called a

> vanity?  I always thought that name hilarious -- and so the hygenic par=

t

> of the bathroom creates a mood in which the pink panther theme plays

> with one=92s brain.  It is definitely the shade of pink of the pink

> panther after a few years of fading.

>=20

> The toilet sits next to the vanity and completes the cramped space of

> the right wall.  It is a toilet.  I don=92t recall the brand -- though =

I

> do recall during the midst of the Firewalking that the brands of toilet=

s

> had some Cosmic significance.  Most toilets do have a name attached the=

y

> are simply ignored.  And I am resisting the urge to go investigate the

> name of the particular toilet in the particular apartment named #23 but

> the resistance may be futile.  It would be better to move on to a

> description of the wallpaper -- which may be rightly beyond describing.

> But the temptation is too great and so I will investigate the toilet=92=

s

> name and hope the symbolism does not disturb the current attempt to

> connect with a grounded little paradise in this place called My

> bathroom.

>=20

> It is an Anonymous toilet.  How fitting!!!!

>=20

> Typing about toilets and this particular toilet in this particular

> apartment named #23.  Maybe I should name my toilet.  I think I should

> but I must wander through thoughts of toilets a bit first and zoom

> through thoughts that pass my mind about toilets in general and this

> toilet in particular and maybe then I can find a decent proper name for

> MY toilet in MY bathroom in this particular apartment named #23.

>=20

> My bathroom and toilet have indoor plumbing.  No outhouse -- though

> sometimes the space seems somewhat cramped in my particular bathroom.

> This problem is easily resolved by sitting down on the toilet getting

> that toilet-seat-on-your-ass feeling -- closing your eyes -- tipping

> your head back slightly and think serious about the last time you were

> in an actual outhouse.  If you=92ve never been in an actual outhouse --

> just do it -- find one and sit there and shit there -- then you will

> understand.  After this contemplation, visualization game - bring your

> head forward, open your eyes, if you shit during the exercise make

> appropriate cleaning measures and look around and take in all the huge

> vast space in your bathroom compared to the vision of the outhouse and

> suddenly your bathroom will expand for you.  When I do this exercise on

> my Anonymous toilet in MY bathroom in the particular apartment named

> #23, it expands to feel like a warehouse size room -- at least!  So the

> first difference between outhouses and bathrooms is spatial -- the

> second difference is the miracle of modern plumbing.  Not to

> underestimate the miracle of plumbing, but it technically is the crampe=

d

> feeling in an outhouse which gives the sensation that one may

> permanently join the shit.

>=20

> Plumbing.  Who understands it -- raise your hand!  I know as much about

> the mechanics of plumbing as I do about Einstein=92s theory of maximize=

d

> minimum electrical currency -- perhaps I know more about the theorem in

> fact.  Plumbing is compleat and total magic.  Who can deny this?  Yet w=

e

> often take plumbing for granted.  Next time someone visits for a

> cocktail party -- a whole group -- say that you=92ve learned a magic

> trick.  Lead them all to the bathroom.  Once inside with the door

> closed, look very serious, hummm mantras, then gently stroke the flushe=

r

> on the toilet, smile and walk out.  It is more polite to leave the door

> open when leaving to help your guests find there way.  And if you reall=

y

> think that you can explain that trick to me and how it isn=92t magic, j=

ust

> go on and explain why the water swirls one way north of the equator and

> the other way south of the equator in plain Kansas english and then if

> you can explain that little trick, by then i=92ll have found something

> else you take for granted that is amazingly magical that will knock you

> on your ass.

>=20

> The next thing about this Anonymous toilet is four little devices which

> create perhaps the Greatest Controversy in the history of the Universe.

> They are called hinges.  The hinges work to allow the lid and seat of

> the toilet to either sit flat on the toilet basin or to sit upright in =

a

> ???perpinduclar??? relation to the basin.  There really is little

> controversy over the two hinges on the lid.  Without these two hinges

> anyone would have difficulty fulfilling the intimate functions of

> human-toilet relations.  The other two hinges, however, are rightly the

> cause of conflicts more powerful than a locomotive so to speak.  It is

> the old should the seat be up or down dilemma?

>=20

> The should the seat be up or down dilemma ought to be properly

> described.  There is a contingent of the human species that tends to

> absent mindedly leave the toilet seat and lid in the upright position

> after the act technically referred to as elimination of fluid from the

> urinary tract.  These are boys.  There is another contingent of the

> human species that DEMANDS that the toilet seat be placed down after

> every ritual act of pissing by the contingent known as boys.  These are

> girls.  This is obviously no simple conflict to mediate.

>=20

> Now girls insist that the seat be down because they have to pee sitting

> down and if the seat is up they might sit down and fall into the toilet

> basin -- Horror of Horrors!!!  This fear (paranoia?) is the primary

> basis for the demand that boys should put down the seat.

>=20

> Boys always answer this by the incredible explanation that all should

> memorize for such situations -- =93I forgot=94.  Now how can the girl a=

rgue

> with that.  She can get furious but she can=92t know if the boy really

> forgot or not.  If the boy really forgot than she may be brought to fee=

l

> some compassion for his absent-mindedness.

>=20

> Don=92t count on it!  While the contingent of the human species called

> girls are stereotyped as having unfathomable capacities for deep empath=

y

> and compassion, this is a false belief.  All one need do is observe the

> girl who catches the boy leaving the seat up to know that compassion is

> not an intrinsic quality.

>=20

> Now in my particular case, this great controversy is primarily academic

> since I live alone as a hermit and one of the most pleasant things abou=

t

> this lifestyle is the absolute abandon one feels at the freedom to not

> give a flying fuck where the damn toilet seat is.

>=20

> I admit that being a boy I am probably biased in this matter.  I hope

> that some day a girl will visit my apartment making the question a

> practical matters.  Some days I can ponder this possibility for hours

> plotting and planning my strategy in the Great Controversy of the Toile=

t

> Seat.  From this point of view, I have some words of advice for the

> boys.  Girls may wish to skip the next bit.  I will not be surprised if

> many a girl upon reading this will compleatly forget her compassionate

> nature and come searching for my particular apartment named #23 with

> fire in her eyes and prepared to murder me in cold blood.  I will take

> this risk partly because it offers the possibility of getting some girl=

s

> to come to my particular pad.

>=20

> So the first thing is don=92t count on the =93I forgot=94 line.  They a=

re on

> to it.  I recall visiting a bathroom in Rock Island when visiting a

> friend of mine who was part of the contingent of the human species

> called girl.  I was standing there pissing away and looked in front of

> me and there posted for every boy in huge letters was a declaration of

> the apartment policy that the toilet seat should be put down by boys

> after they pee.  I usually remembered to abide by this request, but

> being about the most absent-minded boy on the planet I must admit that

> more than once I left the bathroom with (ARGH!) the toilet seat

> upright.  Confronted by my friend I honestly said =93I forgot=94.  She

> hauled me into the bathroom - all her girlfriends stood at the bathroom

> door grinning with claws sharpened - she pointed at the notice and said

> =93Are you blind today?=94  Well, what was I to do.  I=92d been complet=

ely

> caught in some girl court over breach of toilet seat contract and the

> jury had their claws ready to inflict punishment.

>=20

> In such a situation, the mind can do wonderful things.  After a few

> moments I opened my mouth and words came out that I had not yet thought

> of.  They were:  =93I had my eyes closed.=94  Unfortunately, I was a bi=

t

> timid from the sight of all the claws and my voice shifted to a high

> soprano at the end of the sentence so it came out not as an explanation

> but as an interrogative =93I had my eyes closed?=94.  So they weren=92t=

 buying

> it.

>=20

> They were closing in.  So I did what any MAN does in a situation like

> this.  I relaxed my facial muscles and created the absolutely most

> pitiful puppy dog face ever presented to a jury of clawed girls in the

> history of bathrooms and hinged toilet seats.  I got off with severe

> reprimands.

>=20

> But I must warn that this was some time ago and given the psychic cult

> of the old girl friend connection, I imagine that more militant

> responses are now prepared for any boys attempting such a strategy.

>=20

> So next time I have a question or two.

>=20

> Question one.  Why can=92t you remember to put the seat down?  This one

> draws ire so come right back with this one: How can you trust that i=92=

ll

> remember to lift the toilet seat?  Us boys may absent-mindedly piss all

> over the toilet seat instead of in the basin and this is probably not

> something you want to place your exquisite ass on.  While this is

> compleatly logical and should be sufficient to stop all the girls in

> their tracks I have thought of another tactic.

>=20

> Question two.  Why is it more work for you to lower the toilet seat tha=

n

> for me to raise it?  You have gravity with you -- did you ever think of

> that honey?  (Use your discretion on the use of the word honey here - i=

t

> is punishable by death in discussions of the toilet seat controversy in

> some jurisdictions).  This too is perfectly logical.  Perhaps it will

> work.  It may not.

>=20

> If it doesn=92t the cause is probably hopeless.  But I have an idea -- =

go

> to your death in full glory.  This one will easily result in the boy=92=

s

> murder -- but it will be death with dignity.

>=20

> =93It is about damn time that we all think a minute about why woman can=

=92t

> start pissing standing up!!!!  All ya gotta do is stand directly over

> the basin.  It may take some practice and training but we all go throug=

h

> toilet training.  This will eliminate the greatest hindrance to gender

> equality in the history of the universe - the toilet seat controversy.

> Just stand up and let it shoot right down there in the bowl with

> gushes.=94

>=20

> Now if you aren=92t immediately killed, you may hear something about ho=

w

> it might make a mess.

>=20

> This will help you die with dignity.  If the girl says she might make a

> mess, say: =93boys really don=92t care much about a little piss splatte=

r

> around now and then -- we do it ourselves absent-mindedly even with the

> aiming ability of these serpents God gave us.=94

>=20

> So, as I said, the previous section while about toilets in general and

> perhaps about the Anonymous toilet in my particular bathroom in the

> particular apartment named #23 is basically designed for me to meet

> girls.  I figure either some girls will come intent on murder and I can

> melt them with my puppy-dog look (the best puppy-dog look in the world =

I

> can humbly add) OR more likely, the girls will murder so many boys that

> use these ideas in the Great Bathroom Controversy that the proportion o=

f

> girls to boys will continue to shift giving me better and better odds.

> In that event, I will deny writing the book and quickly run put the sea=

t

> down before the girls get a good look.

>=20

> For anyone interested, the seat is up right now.

>=20

> So I could just talk about the Anonymous toilet and toilets in general

> for days and days and I just might do that.

>=20

> [at this point i stopped writing and at the suggestion of several folks

> started reading Joyce's Ulysses for the first time <grin>]

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:46:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

 

In a message dated 97-10-24 09:37:20 EDT, brian writes:

 

<< 

 this may be true in new jersey, but my best friend works at a b dalton in

 omaha and they keep all copies of OTR locked up in the safe because every

 copy that went onto the shelves was stolen.  >>

 

In Seattle, at one of the three B&Ns I've frequented, they have nothing on

the shelves for Kerouac, Burroughs, Bukowski, and a few others. They claim

they can't keep them from being stolen. They won't even keep them behind the

counter, which pisses me off.

 

At the other two stores, however, their shelves are lined with Kerouac titles

and third-party books about jack.

 

I can't understand what the deal is with people stealing these titles, but it

does seem to be an epidemic. Anyone know anyone who's stolen anything by

jack, WSB or Bukowski? I'd like to ask them why they do it.

 

Hardly seems Beat to me.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:45:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Work in Progress -- backchannel requests

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i really do want and appreciate any constructive criticisms and comments

about where this is headed.

 

i would HIGHLY recommend that these occur OFF-LIST through my "backdoor"

<beg> so as to save bandwidth for the Discussion of Beat Literature.

 

thanks,

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:51:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: BEAT WEB SITES

 

I think that might have been my post, unless someone else posted something

similar. I'll send it to you directly, since you're on AOL and the links will

come to you live.

 

But if anyone else missed it, let me know, and I'll be happy to send it.

Since the day I posted it, I've found about 30 more sites, as well, all worth

traveling to.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:58:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Kevin Medline's guestbook

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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i've been such a moron that i haven't signed the guestbook yet at:

 

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

 

But -- it seems to me that the Guestbook does probably provide an easy

solution to the question of referencing Beat-L or some other source as

to where one became aware of the Webpage.  So that might be a way of

providing credit and "advertising <smile>" to the Beat-L for it's role

in supporting many of the folks who both post at Kevin's page and who

visit it.

 

just a thought as I pack for wichita,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:12:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: BEAT WEB SITES

In-Reply-To:  <971024094842_1369205712@emout13.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:51 AM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I think that might have been my post, unless someone else posted something

>similar. I'll send it to you directly, since you're on AOL and the links will

>come to you live.

> 

>But if anyone else missed it, let me know, and I'll be happy to send it.

>Since the day I posted it, I've found about 30 more sites, as well, all worth

>traveling to.

> 

>diane

 

Diane, could you post your latest updated list for the group? Thanks Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:33:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Farewell

Comments: To: Marie Countryman <country@sover.net>

In-Reply-To:  <199710240113.VAA27171@pike.sover.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> richard i am sorry but i am not the only one who has expressed vexation

 towards

> you and your sense of entitlement. you've brought nothing to this list, and

 yet

> you insist on insulting our host, and he is our host and he is the list owner,

 and

> yes, i think you are reveling in you own little melodrama and i think you are

 an

> ass. that's a fact

> mc

> 

 

I love beat literature and have studied it for a long time.  I thought I

had something to contribute to this list.  I thought I had introduced

some interesting threads, including several that are active now

(unpublished Kerouac, Kerouac and Barnes&Noble, a couple of others)

 

But if you say I have brought nothingto this list, I guess I should

believe you, because you are part of the clique, and nobody in it

disagrees with anything anyone else in it has to say.  Gerry Nicosia, one

of the most prominent members of this list, was on the verge of leaving

this list, because Bill Gargan had threatened to block his future posts

presumably if the tone of those posts did not suit him.  I wanted this

list to grow, and I didnt want him or anyone else leaving because of

flared up tempers.  Noone should be on this list who cannot respect the

other members of this list.  I didnt see anything wrong with the Estate

mudslinging.  Mudslinging is human nature.  I saw a lot wrong with Bill

Gargan reserving the right to block posts, when he has defined this list

as "unmoderated"

 

Ive seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on

against me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about

this list and its integrity.  I just wanted Bill Gargan to say he

understood my concerns.

 

So now Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about.  I'll miss being

on this list.  But nobody here wants to give me or my motives the benefit

of the doubt.  Nobody wants to accept that I had good intentions.

 

I just wanted a list where people can speak freely, without fear of

moderation, blockage, or disrespect.

 

In any case, I wont stay where I am not wanted.  I'll be unsubscribing at

the end of today.  Anybody who wants to discuss beats can email me at

rwallner@capaccess.org, or try my homepage (which I havent updated ina

while), at www.cyberspace.org/~kerouac.

 

I've not meant to be more anything more than a good participant here.

 

good bye...richard wallner

 

p.s. left my copy of Desolation Angels on the subway this morning and now

Im leaving the list...this has already been a lousy day *sigh*

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:56:08 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      pome

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(needs to be centered for full visual effect)

IN SOMNIA

 

   for the fourth day

   of the fourth year

   up here in north country

   i dwell in the land of

   in Somnia.

 

   in Somnia,

   the rules change:

   clocks run backwards

   as

   fast as ahead

   and collide,

   like two perfectly balanced arrows

   two exquistely aimed arrorws

   meeting in mid flight -

 

time

   collapses.

 

   i=92ve tried

   doctors

   pills

   special pillows

   herbal remedies

   warm milk!

   relaxation, meditation

   chants!

   (and furtive readings from the =91self help=92

   corner of local bookstore )

 

   hell,

   i=92ve even taken to ale again

   as my corner store is a

   redemption center!

 

   redemption through ales!

   they=92ve told me they miss my bottles,

   and my pockets of change for replacements

   (hell,

   i think  when abstinent,

   they preyed for my redemption!)

 

   but,

   nothing changes.

   Until, 72 hours into

   black night slowly

   inching its way to dawn,

   i look out my window

   and

   see the first snow fall

   of the season.

 

   i take this as an omen

   i take this as a vision

   i take this as a balm,

   and i thank the winds of change :

 

   with same disease as allen

   cooking in my body

   at times quiescent,

   other times raging,

    a life line without guarrentee

   a reminder of mortality,

 

   i

   suspect the gods are smiling on me

   giving me more time

   to store up against an early death

 

   so charged,

   writing always becomes electric,

   a force of its own :

   vowels

   consonants

   metaphors

   voices

ring in my head,

 

   so i spend time with poets

   who would rather

   stay dead:

 

   Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

   (i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow their path),

 

   or that of ti Jean,

   Kerouac :

   it=92s a critical mass:

   one can drown in water, or in wine,

   nothing sublime about that.

 

   is it an affliction,

   these extra hours,

   dark, quiet, soft snow falling

 

   or gift?

   (these extra hours

   dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

 

   i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

   hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

 

   i=92m still awake

   when daybreak changes snow to rain

   snow washed away

   in to the rain

 

   i=92m still awake

 

   i=92m still awake

 

   i=92m still awake

   oct 24, 97

   mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:23:26 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Farewell

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Richard, as one of the people who expressed considerable exasperation with

your latest output, I want to let you know that I don't hate you, I don't

want you off the list, I speak for myself only, I have made friends on the

list, marie is one of them, I never had any backchannell communications with

Bill. I do not agree with marie that you have not contributed to the list,

but I do agree that there is something very wrong in much of your

proclaiming and protesting that is, as someone pointed out, just awfully

inconsistent and quite unreal at times. Please Richard, have a better look

at what you are doing, whether you stay on the list or not. But if you do,

as I hope you will, get a better focus on what's real, please.

Take your statement in this post for example:

 

>No one should be on this list who cannot respect the

>other members of this list.

 

Now you are deciding that people who don't meet your standards shouldn't be

on the list. Come on, do you expect it possible that everyone respect

everyone else on a list?  All that is necessary is that minimal

consideration be given to the necessity for peaceful coexistense.

 

Good luck to you whatever you do

 

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, October 24, 1997 8:30 AM

Subject: Farewell

 

 

>On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

>> richard i am sorry but i am not the only one who has expressed vexation

> towards

>> you and your sense of entitlement. you've brought nothing to this list,

and

> yet

>> you insist on insulting our host, and he is our host and he is the list

owner,

> and

>> yes, i think you are reveling in you own little melodrama and i think you

are

> an

>> ass. that's a fact

>> mc

>> 

> 

>I love beat literature and have studied it for a long time.  I thought I

>had something to contribute to this list.  I thought I had introduced

>some interesting threads, including several that are active now

>(unpublished Kerouac, Kerouac and Barnes&Noble, a couple of others)

> 

>But if you say I have brought nothingto this list, I guess I should

>believe you, because you are part of the clique, and nobody in it

>disagrees with anything anyone else in it has to say.  Gerry Nicosia, one

>of the most prominent members of this list, was on the verge of leaving

>this list, because Bill Gargan had threatened to block his future posts

>presumably if the tone of those posts did not suit him.  I wanted this

>list to grow, and I didnt want him or anyone else leaving because of

>flared up tempers.  Noone should be on this list who cannot respect the

>other members of this list.  I didnt see anything wrong with the Estate

>mudslinging.  Mudslinging is human nature.  I saw a lot wrong with Bill

>Gargan reserving the right to block posts, when he has defined this list

>as "unmoderated"

> 

>Ive seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on

>against me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about

>this list and its integrity.  I just wanted Bill Gargan to say he

>understood my concerns.

> 

>So now Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about.  I'll miss being

>on this list.  But nobody here wants to give me or my motives the benefit

>of the doubt.  Nobody wants to accept that I had good intentions.

> 

>I just wanted a list where people can speak freely, without fear of

>moderation, blockage, or disrespect.

> 

>In any case, I wont stay where I am not wanted.  I'll be unsubscribing at

>the end of today.  Anybody who wants to discuss beats can email me at

>rwallner@capaccess.org, or try my homepage (which I havent updated ina

>while), at www.cyberspace.org/~kerouac.

> 

>I've not meant to be more anything more than a good participant here.

> 

>good bye...richard wallner

> 

>p.s. left my copy of Desolation Angels on the subway this morning and now

>Im leaving the list...this has already been a lousy day *sigh*

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:41:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

 

Hi, Bill -

 

You have my total support and appreciation for what you've accomplished with

Beat-L.....

 

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:42:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac t-shirts, anyone?

 

We've got a great new T-shirt of Jack Kerouac with artwork by subterranean

artist, R. Crumb. $19.95. Large - Extra Large - XXL...check it out at

www.waterrowbooks.com.

Thanks -

Jeffrey

WRB

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:20:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Farewell

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Don't leave.  This stuff is nerves only.

 

I think at first Richard came off as off the wall.  But when he made the

post about the "ownership" being a semantic issue, he acknowledged a lot (I

was going to make a similar post about what "ownership" of a list means and

was going to say essentially the same thing that Richard said) about what he

was trying to get across and toned down his rhetoric a lot and clearly

stated his viewpoints.  In other words he did come on strong but also took

the level down a notch later.

 

What else can I say.  Everyone stop acting like babies.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:23:06 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      i'm beginning to hear voices..

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...and there's no one around...

WHO IS BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY CD PLAYER???

 

thank the gods and goddesses:

all and whoever.

 

the best matured combo of blonde on blonde, new morining and blood on

the tracks.

i'm in dylan heaven....

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:25:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: sigh

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 09:08 PM 10/23/97 +0000, you wrote:

>well i swore i wouldn't take the bait again, but

>mr walner:

>have you ever stopped to thnk that most people probably don't want you and your

>hysterics and your egoism on this list by now?

>like you've been told before:

>it's bill's list.

>you are an ass, sir.

>g'night.

>mc

> 

> 

 

Maybe some people don't want you, MC,  on the list either but are polite

enough to not say it??????

 

(Not me--I am not speaking for myself.  I want everyone on the list on the

list.  I want MC on the list I want Walner on the list.  But I must point

out it is not polite to say things like this to another list member.)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:26:08 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:30 PM 10/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Does anybody have a copy of Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia for sale?

>I saw it on a first edition of Memory babe and I would like to read it.

>It's subtitle, as indicated by www.amazon.com is " An Intimate Portrait of

>Gay Hustling in Chicago." I am not sure of the publisher or year of

>publication. Thanks...Paul...

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

> 

 

 

How much you offer for it???

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:18:56 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

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   Love, Love talking here, major voice Love, Love, Love

 

Marie, there were some inspired long past bedtime times that I cherish in my

life and am looking forward to more of such inspirations to come

 

Love Love Love Non stop Love, No End Love

 

Dear marie, I am off to the City, Email incommunicado land for me.

I expect to see my buddy Q.R. and will have a drink with Sherri and Ann

marie before I come back this evening.

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, October 24, 1997 9:15 AM

Subject: pome

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:28:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Who are you the debate team?????

 

He definately mellowed.   Saying soemthing like this is not attack on Bill

is him toning down.  I don't know why after he began to tone down (with his

semantics of "ownership" post people didn't begin to meet him half way.

 

At 08:20 AM 10/23/97 -0700, you wrote:

>> Diane De Rooy wrote:

> 

>> Richard,

>> 

>> This is so familiar. When you misstate something and people call you on

>> it, you revise history by saying "That's not what I said..."

>> Here's your text below. You did use the word, "censor." How is a person

>> supposed to respond to that powerful verb?

>> 

>> >  "what have I done that is so bad?  All I was doing was trying to

>> > prevent the caretaker of this list from censoring one of its

>> > subsribers (Nicosia in this case) who was just trying to defend

>> > himself.  This was not a personal attack on Bill Gargan.  I am sure

>> > Bill Gargan is a hell of a guy and he does a terrific job with this

>> >  list normally. But nobody is perfect, and he overreacted here, and

>> > by his own admission overstated his

>> > ability to effectively police this list."

>> 

>> Later, you used the verb "to police." It's very clear you're using the

>> power of these words to make your case against what you define as >

>> repression of free speech.

>> 

>> When you argue with people, why don't you do everyone (including

>> yourself) a favor and quote yourself? Cut and paste from your own

>> letters, then respond.

>> That way maybe it will be clear to you just exactly what it was you

>> said.

>> 

>> And, hey, Richard, there's no shame in being wrong. The shame is when

>> you can't admit it and move on.

>> 

>> Let it go, Richard.

> 

>And if we are talking about facts, Richard Wallner in several posts,

>including the one you quoted above says, "This was not a personal attack

>on Bill Gargan."  And yet in one of his posts, dated 10/22, he says, "It

>is a worthwhile list and doesn't deserve to be killed by a power hungry

>would-be moderator...Just sit back and watch the debate and if you can't

>stomach it Mr. Gargan, just hit delete."

> 

>To me, calling someone a "power hungry would be moderator" is definitely

>a personal attack, and Levi Asher was right on target in his response.

> 

>Richard, if you want to keeping arguing about this crap, do it with

>yourself, and let the rest of us get back to discussing beat literature.

>DC

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:32:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  <971024123924_-1393339047@emout05.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I second that!

 

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:

 

> Hi, Bill -

> 

> You have my total support and appreciation for what you've accomplished with

> Beat-L.....

> 

> Jeffrey Weinberg

> Water Row Books

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:59:17 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: J Stauffer

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Jo,

 

Mea culpa.  My tone and word choice were uncalled for.  I respect Mr.

Nicosia's contribution to Beat scholarship.  I am not convinced that the

issue is as black and white as it appears to both you and GN, but my

mind is still open on this matter.  What I said was out of frustration

when Gerry appeared to be joining Mr. Wallner's quixotic campaign to

"liberate" the list from Bill--which I and an awful lot of others found

offensive.  I apologize for my tone.  I wish that Gerry's tone was more

temperate, but as one who has lived long enough to be sued myself I

understand the tendency to overstate.

 

Hopefully this tempest will die down and we will discuss the literature

we all love as friends, like we generally do.

 

James Stauffer

 

jo grant wrote:

> 

> You write..." ...the babbling of Gerry Nicosia...a violation of rudimentary

> manners."

> 

> That surprised me.

> (snip)

> I've seen Gerry Nicosia provoked to anger and IMO the anger justified,

 However, my

> criticism has been that he responded at all. Gerry may lose his cool, may

> get angry, but he doesn't babble--doesn't talk "indistinctly,

> meaninglessly, incoherently or like an idiot."

 

(snip)>

> As for the estate controversy, I believe the information we have been

> exposed to is important, but I do cringe when innuendo is substituted for

> facts and civility ignored.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:57:01 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: sigh

MIME-Version: 1.0

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ok i know i took the bait, mr gallaher, but that was after several off list

 talks

with mr walner, which i kept confidential, as was his wish. i agree with

 leon,(that

i did not give mr walner credit for what he has done here) but i stand firm on

 my

exasperated small piece of turf. and yeah tim, i figger out of 200 so odd people

and me there are quite a few who surely do feel so.

it's all right, baby blue...

mc

 

Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> At 09:08 PM 10/23/97 +0000, you wrote:

> >well i swore i wouldn't take the bait again, but

> >mr walner:

> >have you ever stopped to thnk that most people probably don't want you and

 your

> >hysterics and your egoism on this list by now?

> >like you've been told before:

> >it's bill's list.

> >you are an ass, sir.

> >g'night.

> >mc

> >

> >

> 

> Maybe some people don't want you, MC,  on the list either but are polite

> enough to not say it??????

> 

> (Not me--I am not speaking for myself.  I want everyone on the list on the

> list.  I want MC on the list I want Walner on the list.  But I must point

> out it is not polite to say things like this to another list member.)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:03:54 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

great line from "Big Sur":

 

"So I feed Alf the last of my apples which he receives with big faroff teeth

inside his big hairy muzzle, never biting, just muffing up my apple from my

outstretched palm, and chompling away sadly, turning to scratch his behind

against a tree with a big erotic motion that gets worse and worse till finally

he's standing there with erectile dong that would scare the Whore of Babylon

let alone me."

 

too funny!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:09:51 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Farewell

Comments: cc: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>,

          Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971024105410.10655B-100000@cap1.capaccess .org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

....farewell is a sad sad news, i hope nobody had forced to leave

the beat-list, nor nobody can do thoughts vanishing in electronic

empty world pushing the del button, maybe i've lost my head for

ever, in the october wind....

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:58:00 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      road&field+reality&cut-up=#?

In-Reply-To:  <199710232023.QAA18971@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

#1              messy clouds

                        (silence)

                                a black cat

                                                (silence)

                                meeoww meeeow

                                        (silence)

                                a small farm

                                        in the country

                (silence)

                        (silence)

                                (silence)

                        my heart

                (silence)

        (silence)

(silence)

        (silence)

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                                (silence)

#2              messy clouds

                                        (silence)

                                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                                a small farm

                                        in the country

                (silence)

                        (silence)

                                (silence)

                        my heart

                (silence)

        (silence)

(silence)

        (silence)

                (silence)

                                (silence)

        YEP!

                yep!

                        YEP!

                                yep!

                                        (silence)

                        (silence)

                (silence)

(silence)

#3              messy clouds

                                        (silence)

                                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                (silence)

                        (silence)

                                (silence)

                        my heart

                (silence)

        (silence)

(silence)

        (silence)

                (silence)

                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                        (silence)

                (silence)

(silence)

#4              messy clouds

                                        (silence)

                                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                (silence)

                        (silence)

                                (silence)

                (silence)

        (silence)

(silence)

        (silence)

                (silence)

                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                        (silence)

                (silence)

(silence)

#5                                      (silence)

                                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                (silence)

                        (silence)

                                (silence)

                (silence)

        (silence)

(silence)

        (silence)

                (silence)

                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                        (silence)

                (silence)

(silence)

 

 

---

Rinaldo

Autumn Lost in Venetian Lands

24th october 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:14:10 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      (FWD) Zappa says...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971024105410.10655B-100000@cap1.capaccess .org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:06:48 -0400 (EDT)

>From: YokoMofo@aol.com

>Subject: Zappa says...

> 

> 

>It would be easier to pay off our national debt than to neutralize the

>long range effects of our national stupidity.

> 

>Life is like high school with money.

> 

>It is always advisable to become a loser if you can't become a winner.

> 

>There will never be a nuclear war -- there's too much real estate

>involved.

> 

>Anything played wrong twice in a row is the beginning of an arrangement.

> 

>Seeing a psychotherapist is not a crazy idea -- it's just wanting a

>second opinion of one's life.

> 

>Thanks to our schools and political leaderhip, the US has an

>international reputation as the home of 250 million people dumb enough

>to buy The Wacky Wall Walker.

> 

>People who think of music videos as an art form are probably the same

>people who think Cabbage Patch Dolls are a revolutionary form of soft

>sculpture.

> 

>The only thing that seems to band all nations together is that their

>governments are universally bad.

> 

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:36:39 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane De Rooy wrote:

> 

> 

> In Seattle, at one of the three B&Ns I've frequented, they have nothing on

> the shelves for Kerouac, Burroughs, Bukowski, and a few others. They claim

> they can't keep them from being stolen. They won't even keep them behind the

> counter, which pisses me off.

> 

 

Same goes for Vancouver, it's gotten realy bad in recent years. Nearly

all bookstores, except Chapters (B & N knockoff), have Bukowski,

Kerouac, Burroughs, Hunter S. Thompson, and sometimes Ginsberg either

behind or next to the counter. I talked to an owner of one place and was

told Bukowski and Kerouac thefts are increasing all the time. That's

really strange...in all my obsessing with Kerouac, Buk, WSB, & HST I

never once even considered the remote possibility of swiping one of

their books. It's sort of fascinating, the fact that there's such a

trend everywhere.

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:45:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Book Announcement

 

Dear Bill:

I've asked City Lights to send you a review copy of the book, if you don't

get it in the next week or so please let me know, I don't know how quickly

they act on these requests but I hope it will be soon.

Yours,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:00:46 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: road&field+reality&cut-up=#?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

bellisimmo, rinaldo: i have missed you!

marie

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> #1              messy clouds

>                         (silence)

>                                 a black cat

>                                                 (silence)

>                                 meeoww meeeow

>                                         (silence)

>                                 a small farm

>                                         in the country

>                 (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                         my heart

>                 (silence)

>         (silence)

> (silence)

>         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                                 (silence)

> #2              messy clouds

>                                         (silence)

>                                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                                 a small farm

>                                         in the country

>                 (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                         my heart

>                 (silence)

>         (silence)

> (silence)

>         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>         YEP!

>                 yep!

>                         YEP!

>                                 yep!

>                                         (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

> (silence)

> #3              messy clouds

>                                         (silence)

>                                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                         my heart

>                 (silence)

>         (silence)

> (silence)

>         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

> (silence)

> #4              messy clouds

>                                         (silence)

>                                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                 (silence)

>         (silence)

> (silence)

>         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

> (silence)

> #5                                      (silence)

>                                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                 (silence)

>         (silence)

> (silence)

>         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

> (silence)

> 

> ---

> Rinaldo

> Autumn Lost in Venetian Lands

> 24th october 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:36:14 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Re: pome

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     Marie,

 

     I am with you all the way on this poem.

     First snow fall here in Utah as well.

     Coming at the end of a week of tired fits

     and open-eyed nights, your words ring

     true.

 

     Thanks for the language blanket.

 

     Sean D. Young

 

 

 

(needs to be centered for full visual effect)

IN SOMNIA

 

   for the fourth day

   of the fourth year

   up here in north country

   i dwell in the land of

   in Somnia.

 

   in Somnia,

   the rules change:

   clocks run backwards

   as

   fast as ahead

   and collide,

   like two perfectly balanced arrows

   two exquistely aimed arrorws

   meeting in mid flight -

 

time

   collapses.

 

   i've tried

   doctors

   pills

   special pillows

   herbal remedies

   warm milk!

   relaxation, meditation

   chants!

   (and furtive readings from the `self help'

   corner of local bookstore )

 

   hell,

   i've even taken to ale again

   as my corner store is a

   redemption center!

 

   redemption through ales!

   they've told me they miss my bottles,

   and my pockets of change for replacements

   (hell,

   i think  when abstinent,

   they preyed for my redemption!)

 

   but,

   nothing changes.

   Until, 72 hours into

   black night slowly

   inching its way to dawn,

   i look out my window

   and

   see the first snow fall

   of the season.

 

   i take this as an omen

   i take this as a vision

   i take this as a balm,

   and i thank the winds of change :

 

   with same disease as allen

   cooking in my body

   at times quiescent,

   other times raging,

    a life line without guarrentee

   a reminder of mortality,

 

   i

   suspect the gods are smiling on me

   giving me more time

   to store up against an early death

 

   so charged,

   writing always becomes electric,

   a force of its own :

   vowels

   consonants

   metaphors

   voices

ring in my head,

 

   so i spend time with poets

   who would rather

   stay dead:

 

   Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

   (i've often wondered if i'd follow their path),

 

   or that of ti Jean,

   Kerouac :

   it's a critical mass:

   one can drown in water, or in wine,

   nothing sublime about that.

 

   is it an affliction,

   these extra hours,

   dark, quiet, soft snow falling

 

   or gift?

   (these extra hours

   dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

 

   i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

   hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

 

   i'm still awake

   when daybreak changes snow to rain

   snow washed away

   in to the rain

 

   i'm still awake

 

   i'm still awake

 

   i'm still awake

   oct 24, 97

   mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:39:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Re: i'm beginning to hear voices..

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     Marie,

 

     same plane.

     dylan CD all around.

     alternating with Harry Smith's folk anthology.

 

     many voices. lost times

 

     AH

 

     SDY

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: i'm beginning to hear voices..

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    10/24/97 1:23 PM

 

 

...and there's no one around...

WHO IS BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY CD PLAYER???

 

thank the gods and goddesses:

all and whoever.

 

the best matured combo of blonde on blonde, new morining and blood on

the tracks.

i'm in dylan heaven....

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:25:02 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

thanks, and good to meet you sean! (i have to say i'm liking this pome a

lot)

mc

 

Sean Young wrote:

 

>      Marie,

> 

>      I am with you all the way on this poem.

>      First snow fall here in Utah as well.

>      Coming at the end of a week of tired fits

>      and open-eyed nights, your words ring

>      true.

> 

>      Thanks for the language blanket.

> 

>      Sean D. Young

> 

> (needs to be centered for full visual effect)

> IN SOMNIA

> 

>    for the fourth day

>    of the fourth year

>    up here in north country

>    i dwell in the land of

>    in Somnia.

> 

>    in Somnia,

>    the rules change:

>    clocks run backwards

>    as

>    fast as ahead

>    and collide,

>    like two perfectly balanced arrows

>    two exquistely aimed arrorws

>    meeting in mid flight -

> 

> time

>    collapses.

> 

>    i've tried

>    doctors

>    pills

>    special pillows

>    herbal remedies

>    warm milk!

>    relaxation, meditation

>    chants!

>    (and furtive readings from the `self help'

>    corner of local bookstore )

> 

>    hell,

>    i've even taken to ale again

>    as my corner store is a

>    redemption center!

> 

>    redemption through ales!

>    they've told me they miss my bottles,

>    and my pockets of change for replacements

>    (hell,

>    i think  when abstinent,

>    they preyed for my redemption!)

> 

>    but,

>    nothing changes.

>    Until, 72 hours into

>    black night slowly

>    inching its way to dawn,

>    i look out my window

>    and

>    see the first snow fall

>    of the season.

> 

>    i take this as an omen

>    i take this as a vision

>    i take this as a balm,

>    and i thank the winds of change :

> 

>    with same disease as allen

>    cooking in my body

>    at times quiescent,

>    other times raging,

>     a life line without guarrentee

>    a reminder of mortality,

> 

>    i

>    suspect the gods are smiling on me

>    giving me more time

>    to store up against an early death

> 

>    so charged,

>    writing always becomes electric,

>    a force of its own :

>    vowels

>    consonants

>    metaphors

>    voices

> ring in my head,

> 

>    so i spend time with poets

>    who would rather

>    stay dead:

> 

>    Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

>    (i've often wondered if i'd follow their path),

> 

>    or that of ti Jean,

>    Kerouac :

>    it's a critical mass:

>    one can drown in water, or in wine,

>    nothing sublime about that.

> 

>    is it an affliction,

>    these extra hours,

>    dark, quiet, soft snow falling

> 

>    or gift?

>    (these extra hours

>    dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

> 

>    i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

>    hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

> 

>    i'm still awake

>    when daybreak changes snow to rain

>    snow washed away

>    in to the rain

> 

>    i'm still awake

> 

>    i'm still awake

> 

>    i'm still awake

>    oct 24, 97

>    mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:22:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

hello Beatlist!

 

not to disrepect anyone, but i think these kinds of things are a bit mean. every

 now and

then somebody will ask a basic question to the list, mention it is for school,

 and somebody

else will invariably tap out a respose to the effect of "listen, you lazy ass,

 do the work

yourself!" now of course students shouldnt rely on others for information, but i

 peronally

do not think the responses should be hostile. in many cases i imagine students

 might wanna

use this list as an educative resource, in addition to the stuff in books they

 want some

"real live" perspectives.

 

whatever.

Eric S.

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500 Bob Lewis

<kokupokit@JUNO.COM> wrote:

 

> running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?

> i'll help.

> junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and

> started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because

> he was so busy getting drunk and high.

> all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to

> class.

> one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a

> cockroach and started talking to him.

> it ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,

> and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.

> great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.

> hope i was a big help!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:43:44 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      in memory of Beat-L archive 95,

              blues of bob dylan and robert creeley

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971024105410.10655B-100000@cap1.capaccess .org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                        all these people that you mentioned

                        yes i know them they're quite lame

                        i had to rearrange their faces

                        and give them all another name

                        right now i can't read too good

                        don't send me no more letters no

                        not unless you mail them from

                        desolation row -- bob dylan

 

> GET BEAT-L LOG9505 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9505" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9506 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9506" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9509 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9509" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9508 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9508" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9510 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9510" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9511 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9511" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9512 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9512" is not yet available.

 

                        they are taking all my letters, and they

                        put them into fire.

 

                                        i see the flames, etc.

                        but do not care, etc.

 

                        they burn everything i have, or what little

                        i have. i dont' care, etc.

                                                                --robert creeley

 

i remain speechless --rinaldo rasa

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:45:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

, One day some professor offer us as a resource for his students, and

then he got pissed when i wasn't sweet , the student asked very general

questions and and by that any sensible answer would be vague and

general. Now i can get my teeth into a good question but general

questions make me bilous.  but i reaaly don't think you should assume i

will be sweet.  i will make fun of some one, especially someone that

hasn't hit the library at all. I have often had people refer to me as an

excellant resource for a variety of things including hot sex, a place to

stay, building material but i rebel when a government paid teacher gives

me away. Now if i get a tee shirt or a signed book i can be sweet but

other than that i am pretty comfortable being a bitch, and if necessary

an emascalating bitch.  Of course that is not sweet. I do love sweet

guys. I think men aught to be sweet. They look good and sound good in

their mentor patronizing role. I look better as a hard mouthed bitch

with an attitude. love

patricia

Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

> 

> hello Beatlist!

> 

> not to disrepect anyone, but i think these kinds of things are a bit mean.

 every

>  now and

> then somebody will ask a basic question to the list, mention it is for school,

>  and somebody

> else will invariably tap out a respose to the effect of "listen, you lazy ass,

>  do the work

> yourself!" now of course students shouldnt rely on others for information, but

 i

>  peronally

> do not think the responses should be hostile. in many cases i imagine students

>  might wanna

> use this list as an educative resource, in addition to the stuff in books they

>  want some

> "real live" perspectives.

> 

> whatever.

> Eric S.

> On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500 Bob Lewis

> <kokupokit@JUNO.COM> wrote:

> 

> > running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?

> > i'll help.

> > junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and

> > started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because

> > he was so busy getting drunk and high.

> > all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to

> > class.

> > one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a

> > cockroach and started talking to him.

> > it ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,

> > and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.

> > great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.

> > hope i was a big help!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:55:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      I dedicate myself.

 

Somewhere in teh jumble that is teh digest form of teh beat-l mailing list,

someone wrote about JOhnSampas dedicating newly-publsihed Kerouac works teh

way he thought Jack would have.  Did Jack dedicate his works that were

publsihed while he was alive?  Who were some of the folks he dedicated his

books to, if he did dedicate?  I find this intersting, knowing my own

reasosn for dedicating stories I write to people.

 

Toodles...

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia Plath

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:06:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      beat is as beat does.

 

in reference to stolen kerouac books from bookstores, diane wrote something

to the effect of that not being very beat.  but from what i remember of OTR,

they stole gas, they stole food, they stole cars: what could be more beat

than stealing Kerouac books?  I'm not _condoning_ stealing his books, but

it doesn't seem all that strange a phenomenon.

 

Diane.  (one of the other ones)

 

--

I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia Plath

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:10:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Another Poema

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     thought I'd send another poem at the end of a long and spiteful week.

 

     peace be upon you all

 

     Sean D. Young

 

     ps (thanks Marie and Rinaldo for yr poems.)

 

     Question: What's the most important thing for a poet to remember?

     Answer: "Not to hurt anyone"

                        - Gregory Corso @ Naropa workshop 7/94

     ------------------------------------------------------------------

     Poem:

     ------------------------------------------------------------------

 

     SUBLIMATION

 

     Teething in the wreckage

     in relation to - stranger music

     -- tough bars with you in them

     loosening my scarf -

        to a new meaning

     for new skin

        in the emperor's clothes

     from the bunker

        to the avenue's bosom

     just then - words -

        "This is true -

     you are not afraid"

 

     it is this close

        open palm

                on spinal shutters

     to the walk home - it is

        longer in solitude

                yet blissed

     late summer

        after storm

                the walk IS long

     the air of the lake

        sweet with brine and

                wet grass

     the voice is changing

        WE becomes I

                I becomes YOU

 

     it is this close

        the air is lifting

                the orange clouds

     the drums call from

        boyhood

     -when all there was

        -was music

                in the dawn

     and the twitch

        of feeling

                "I am Loved"

        (gone?)

 

     Until now

        here - the feeling

                is deep opening

                        subtle and awake

     and the visage

        before me and

                the Laundromat

                        on L street and 6th

     is grace -

        a humble caress -

     that man walking

        down the street

                desolate -

                        is loved -

                does he know it?

     "Look up"

        I could say

                but I offer a sigh -

     We walk our own way

        to the castle

                and besides

     the real destination is within -

 

     between two people

        it is a mutual diving

                for the glistening stone

                        inside

     a clear bell

        to silence

                the cacophony

 

     - no other voices here -

 

     it is the blood

        on the lips

     it is the body

        between the teeth

 

     it is the real work

        of the opening palm

     it is the kneeling

        it is the embrace

     it is the kiss

        it is the healing

 

     Leave the wreckage

        it is at rest

                with me

     here, now

        we dine at the splendid table

     this is

     the real story afterall

                off of the page

     through the senses

        from the teething

                to the walk home.

     ------------------------------------

     -------- Sean D. Young 7/17/96

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:14:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: i'm beginning to hear voices..

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:23 PM 10/24/97 +0000, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

>WHO IS BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY

>CD PLAYER???

 

Hmm, good question.  Bob starts his US fall tour this

evening in Starkville, MS, and here's to the man introducing

some of his new material!!!

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:16:14 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bill Morgan's book: First Printing sold out

 

Dear Diane;

Wow, you've said such great things it will be hard to live up to the praise.

 Thanks for the kind words, it is certainly nice of you to say them.

Yours,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:19:14 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

ROFLMAO!!!!! Patty  you're too much!!!

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Patricia Elliott

Sent:   Friday, October 24, 1997 1:45 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

, One day some professor offer us as a resource for his students, and

then he got pissed when i wasn't sweet , the student asked very general

questions and and by that any sensible answer would be vague and

general. Now i can get my teeth into a good question but general

questions make me bilous.  but i reaaly don't think you should assume i

will be sweet.  i will make fun of some one, especially someone that

hasn't hit the library at all. I have often had people refer to me as an

excellant resource for a variety of things including hot sex, a place to

stay, building material but i rebel when a government paid teacher gives

me away. Now if i get a tee shirt or a signed book i can be sweet but

other than that i am pretty comfortable being a bitch, and if necessary

an emascalating bitch.  Of course that is not sweet. I do love sweet

guys. I think men aught to be sweet. They look good and sound good in

their mentor patronizing role. I look better as a hard mouthed bitch

with an attitude. love

patricia

Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

> 

> hello Beatlist!

> 

> not to disrepect anyone, but i think these kinds of things are a bit mean.

 every

>  now and

> then somebody will ask a basic question to the list, mention it is for

school,

>  and somebody

> else will invariably tap out a respose to the effect of "listen, you lazy

ass,

>  do the work

> yourself!" now of course students shouldnt rely on others for information,

but

 i

>  peronally

> do not think the responses should be hostile. in many cases i imagine

students

>  might wanna

> use this list as an educative resource, in addition to the stuff in books

they

>  want some

> "real live" perspectives.

> 

> whatever.

> Eric S.

> On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500 Bob Lewis

> <kokupokit@JUNO.COM> wrote:

> 

> > running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?

> > i'll help.

> > junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and

> > started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because

> > he was so busy getting drunk and high.

> > all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to

> > class.

> > one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a

> > cockroach and started talking to him.

> > it ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,

> > and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.

> > great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.

> > hope i was a big help!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:05:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

patty- you hit the nail on the head.

obviously, our student in need hadn't made an effort to even read the

book, and i would guess that she found the beat list and subscribed for

the sole purpose of trying to get some quick easy info she could use

verbatim in her paper.

if said paper was due this week, i'm sure she has long since forgotten

this list.

now, on the other hand, had she read the book, and offered some insight-

anything at all, such as hey, this cut-up stuff is interesting. can

anybody give me any info on how he started using it, etc etc, i would

have been more than happy to give an opinion.

but as it turned out, she sounded clueless on the subject, and therefore

i had no choice but to be a smartass about it.

so if our student in need is still on the list- defend yourself! prove to

us that you weren't just using us!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:10:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Lytle <e.lytle@SARCOS.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat is as beat does.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Theft is very Beat.  I think the phenomenon is that it 's just happening

to Kerouac and friends.

 

It seems to me that if JK's books are getting lifted,  then Danielle

Steele and Michael Crichton ought to be flying off the shelves.  I bet

you'll never have to look for them behind the counter.

 

-E

 

 

 

 

Diane M. Homza wrote:

 

> in reference to stolen kerouac books from bookstores, diane wrote

> something

> to the effect of that not being very beat.  but from what i remember

> of OTR,

> they stole gas, they stole food, they stole cars: what could be more

> beat

> than stealing Kerouac books?  I'm not _condoning_ stealing his books,

> but

> it doesn't seem all that strange a phenomenon.

> 

> Diane.  (one of the other ones)

> 

> --

> I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia

> Plath

> 

> Diane M. Homza

> ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:30:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      return of the Barnes and Nobel beatnik.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hey folks,

        i am glad to see that some of the B+N stores aren't succumbing to

fascism in regards to not shelving beat books. The stores that do will be

missing out. I convinced my manager to order some copies of Burroughs'

"The Adding Machine." These essays are great and this is one of my fav

top 3 books by Bill. The book is right next to J.G. Ballards' book of

essays which include some praise for Bill. Two great literary giants next

to one another :) One surprise to come in without me ordering was a

collection of Gary Snyder prose.

        The only books that have been getting stolen are the new Anne

Rice "Violin" and Tupac Shakar's tribute photobook. Personally i'd be

glad if more beat books were stolen only because people would be breaking

the law and going out of their way to grab some good stuff.

        COMMERCIALISM ALERT: why hasn't anyone printed a beat generation

calender, using some of Allen's photos? Or perhaps a small desk calender

with a quote from a beat source for each day?

                                                jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:30:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: beat is as beat does.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:10 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Theft is very Beat.  I think the phenomenon is that it 's just happening

>to Kerouac and friends.

> 

 

Please let people know when you will be gone from your house for a long

period of time and where you keep your valuables.  Also please the leave the

door open.

 

And also, your car.  Please leave the keys in it and the door unlocked for

fellow beatniks to steal.

 

 

>It seems to me that if JK's books are getting lifted,  then Danielle

>Steele and Michael Crichton ought to be flying off the shelves.  I bet

>you'll never have to look for them behind the counter.

> 

>-E

> 

> 

> 

> 

>Diane M. Homza wrote:

> 

>> in reference to stolen kerouac books from bookstores, diane wrote

>> something

>> to the effect of that not being very beat.  but from what i remember

>> of OTR,

>> they stole gas, they stole food, they stole cars: what could be more

>> beat

>> than stealing Kerouac books?  I'm not _condoning_ stealing his books,

>> but

>> it doesn't seem all that strange a phenomenon.

>> 

>> Diane.  (one of the other ones)

>> 

>> --

>> I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia

>> Plath

>> 

>> Diane M. Homza

>> ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:38:07 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:55 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Diane Homza wrote:

>Somewhere in teh jumble that is teh digest form of teh beat-l mailing list,

>someone wrote about JOhnSampas dedicating newly-publsihed Kerouac works teh

>way he thought Jack would have.  Did Jack dedicate his works that were

>publsihed while he was alive?  Who were some of the folks he dedicated his

>books to, if he did dedicate?  I find this intersting, knowing my own

>reasosn for dedicating stories I write to people.

> 

>Toodles...

> 

>Diane. (H)

> 

Hi, Diane,  Oct 24, 1997

        I'm going to answer this really fast, from memory, since I'm so busy.

        Among people Jack dedicated books to were the Chinese poet Han Shan,

his Doctor friend Danny DeSole, his editor Ellis Amburn, and his third wife

Stella Sampas.

        John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME

OF THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him

in his fight against Jan Kerouac.

        Best, Gerry Nicosia

        P.S. Just out of curiosity, is yours a Czech name? (I'm half.)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:01:06 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      t-shirts

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                        Oct 24, 1997

Hello!

        Several of you have indicated interest in ordering t-shirts, but

never sent the confirmation I asked.  I am only holding t-shirts for those

who have confirmed that they are sending check.  I am however holding the

last KEROUAC ON THE ROAD for Marlene awaiting her confirmation, soon, please!

        The last ON THE ROAD is spoken for even if Marlene lets her

reservation go.

        There are, however, still a few Kerouac and Kerouac (Jack and Jan)

t's that have not been reserved.  SO if you're one of those who were

interested, suggest you confirm soon!

        THANKS.  --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:47:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>> 

>Hi, Diane,  Oct 24, 1997

>        I'm going to answer this really fast, from memory, since I'm so busy.

>        Among people Jack dedicated books to were the Chinese poet Han Shan,

>his Doctor friend Danny DeSole, his editor Ellis Amburn, and his third wife

>Stella Sampas.

>        John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME

>OF THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him

>in his fight against Jan Kerouac.

>        Best, Gerry Nicosia

>        P.S. Just out of curiosity, is yours a Czech name? (I'm half.)

 

> I thought it was "presumably" because Some of the Dharma began as notes to

Allen Ginsberg about Buddhism...does it not make sense to dedicate the whole

bloody book to him?

      From a letter to Allen Ginsberg from Kerouac dated "early May 1954":

 

  "for your beginning studies of Buddhism, you must listen to me carefully

and implicitly as tho I was Einstein teaching the Formulas of Objective

Correlation on a blackboard in Princeton."

 

  And later...

 

    "Now Allen, as Neal or Carolyn can tell you, last February I typed up a

100-page account of Buddhism for you, gleaned from my notes, and you will

see proof of that in sevral allusions....I will send it importantly stamped,

it's the only copy, we must take special care with it right? "Some of the

Dharma" I called it,and it was intended for you to read in the selva [sic]."

 

     If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul of

THe Kerouac Quarterly...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:36:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

In-Reply-To:  <199710242238.PAA29730@iceland.it.earthlink.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:

 

>         John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME

> OF THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him

> in his fight against Jan Kerouac.

 

Well, the book did start out as notes on Buddhism for Ginsberg, so he's

not so far off in dedicating it as such.  Its interesting how easy it is

to see this early on in the book.  I did a review of it this week for my

Religion in America class focusing on it as a religious text (or text on

religion depending on your point of view).  A lot of it, toward the

beginning, is just that.  Notes and quotes on Buddhist texts Kerouac was

reading.  Bibliogrphies included!  He makes comments on them and, in quite

a few points, its easy to interpret them as specifically for Ginsberg.  As

it progresses he gets farther away from that and his comments are more

addressed to whomever + Ginsberg.  I'd like to get some more impressions

from people if anyone happens to have waded through it by now.  I think it

would make a great insert between Dharma Bums and Desolation Angels.  Or

better, to begin 2/3 of the way through Dharma Bums  and read through most

of Book One of Desolation Angels.  Its a great way to get into Kerouac's

head during a specific period of his life.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:41:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971024234742.006ac2a0@pop.pipeline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> 

>      If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

> negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

> else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

> dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul

 

Now, this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've

been hearing come about.  You were doing just fine until you hit this

paragraph.  In fact I had just finished sending off a post that said much

the same thing (I read it in the introduction as well).  If you really

want to prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you

can do so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about

it.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:44:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971024234742.006ac2a0@pop.pipeline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

>      If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

> negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

> else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

> dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul

 

Now, this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've

been hearing come about.  You were doing just fine until you hit this

paragraph.  In fact I had just finished sending off  a post that said much

the same thing (I read it in the introduction as well).  If you really

want to prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you

can do so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about

it.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:45:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      sorry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Sorry that got sent twice, my mail locked up and went buggy while sending

it.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:55:17 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      jack

 

i don't know

maybe since i'm younger i can look at all the bitching and complaining lately

 

with a certain degree of humor

everyone (as an overgeneralization) is being Absurd

 

you think if we took the legality of this whole affair, maybe resolve our

puny little differences.........

 

and focus on Jack, only Jack

 

not who we think Jack is.....or what we think Jack would want....or what we

think should become of the legacy of Jack......

 

pay more attention to his words(which, in some cases, it seems like some of

you may do to much)

 

jack is dead.......we as a collective has a fascination with dead

idols........but we must learn when to stop intruding upon their lives (i.e.

- this fascination with Jack's "last letter")........

 

if i were a dead icon, i'd be pissed over such infantile arguing, no matter

how much it's in the name of jack or his estate or literature or any

reason.....

 

but i am young and immature and uninformed and ignorant and this is all

opinion

continue to kick up the dust in the sandbox......

i'll just read jack and enjoy

 

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:05:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!/I hate it when that happens

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bob Lewis wrote:

 

<snip> and therefore i had no choice but to be a smartass about it.

<snip>

 

Bob:

 

I hate it when that happens.  :-)

 

I missed the first post.  But I read your post just the way you say

here.  I LOL when I read it and thought, well, if someone is paying

attention they will see that we are not here to do their work for them.

But, I hate it when someone takes away my options.  Kinda like Gregory

Peck in the The Last Gunfighter, or Brownsville Girl.  Hey Diane, if you

missed Brownsville Girl by Sam Shepard and Bob Dylan, you ought to pick

up Greatest Hits III by Dylan and check that out.  It is a masterpiece,

"The only thing we knew for certain about Henry Porter is that his name

wasn't Henry Porter"  And "You always said that people don't do what

they believe in, they just do what' s most convienent and later on they

repent."  Those are paraphrases.  Oh well, I have wandered far afield.

 

You go Bob.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:14:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Reading all these posts about people stealing Kerouac books.  It reminds me

of an English teacher I had in High school who had her copy stolen out of

her room.  We talked that Kerouac wasn't as well known where we were from -

a small town in central Texas.  The fact that someone had heard of Jack was

amazing.  Then I told her that the st. could have just as easily taken a

book by Frost or somone else more known.  Instead they took OTR.  I looked

at her and said "Perhaps it's not the worst thing that could have happened,

at least somebody out there will be reading Jack."  I left the room

afterwards and envisioned a great society that passed out free copies of

OTR to all the youth of America.  I smiled and went home to read _The

Dharma Bums_.

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:39:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

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At 07:44 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>      If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

>> negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

>> else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

>> dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul

> 

>Now, this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've

>been hearing come about.  You were doing just fine until you hit this

>paragraph.  In fact I had just finished sending off  a post that said much

>the same thing (I read it in the introduction as well).  If you really

>want to prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you

>can do so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about

>it.

 

   I guess when Gerry has to take the turn at the end of his letter it means

nothing. Whatever he dishes out he can expect thricefold. I can see through

the offal that is his presence. I can smell the wake of his passing like

being stuck behind a trash truck in rush hour. Verily, I have no

apprehension for publicly addressing one who slanders me in public. There

are some who say I should be more careful not to alienate those who are in

the so-called "Anti-Estate" camp so that they may not buy my quarterly. If

that is their choice then so be it...the contents of The Kerouac Quarterly

and those who contribute to it are either not aware, concerned, or care

about the kind of propaganda that passes for commentary here on the Beat-L.

They are only devoted to the serious scholarly study of Jack Kerouac and his

works. The Kerouac Quarterly will be around for a long time and will be a

place committed solely to the preservation of Kerouac scholarship. Surely,

the chosen few who remain on the "other" side will not make or break such a

commitment from myself and others who care to see such a journal be founded.

I have offered the journal as a sample copy for those who doubt my veracity,

until then, expect to see such negative and untrue comments emitted from the

"other" side be attended to with all haste. Simply, Paul of The Kerouac

Quarterly....

          For those who would like a sample copy go to:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

                             UPDATED TODAY!!!!

 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:27:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

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At 07:47 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>> 

>>Hi, Diane,  Oct 24, 1997

>>        I'm going to answer this really fast, from memory, since I'm so busy.

>>        Among people Jack dedicated books to were the Chinese poet Han Shan,

>>his Doctor friend Danny DeSole, his editor Ellis Amburn, and his third wife

>>Stella Sampas.

>>        John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME

>>OF THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him

>>in his fight against Jan Kerouac.

>>        Best, Gerry Nicosia

>>        P.S. Just out of curiosity, is yours a Czech name? (I'm half.)

> 

>> I thought it was "presumably" because Some of the Dharma began as notes to

>Allen Ginsberg about Buddhism...does it not make sense to dedicate the whole

>bloody book to him?

>      From a letter to Allen Ginsberg from Kerouac dated "early May 1954":

> 

>  "for your beginning studies of Buddhism, you must listen to me carefully

>and implicitly as tho I was Einstein teaching the Formulas of Objective

>Correlation on a blackboard in Princeton."

> 

>  And later...

> 

>    "Now Allen, as Neal or Carolyn can tell you, last February I typed up a

>100-page account of Buddhism for you, gleaned from my notes, and you will

>see proof of that in sevral

 

 

Shouldn't there be a [sic] here?  (Ie sic = spelling incorrect in the original)

 

 

>allusions....I will send it importantly stamped,

>it's the only copy, we must take special care with it right? "Some of the

>Dharma" I called it,and it was intended for you to read in the selva [sic]."

 

And why a sic here?  Do you know what selva means?  It means jungle.

 

If you were a scholar you'd know where Ginsberg was when Kerouac penned this

letter to him.

 

Smiley faces and all that.  It is hard to convet sarcasm with electrons

hitting phosphor.

 

Persoanlly when I saw the dedication in the new books it confused me a

little.  I think that they should be left out really.

 

Don't be so defensive.  It is not a big deal one way or the other.

 

 

> 

>     If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

>negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

>else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

>dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul of

>THe Kerouac Quarterly...

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:28:56 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 07:47 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>     If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

>negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

>else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

>dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul of

>THe Kerouac Quarterly...

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

 

Dear Mr. Maher--   Oct 24, 1997

        I am a scholar, sir, and my credentials are a lot more impressive

than yours.

        I will do as Mr. Gargan requested and ignore your abuse.

        But I will address an important point, which you miss.  THE POINT

IS, JACK KEROUAC DID NOT DEDICATE THAT BOOK TO ALLEN GINSBERG.  It was

presumptuous and arrogant of Mr. Sampas to dedicate the book for him.  There

was no need for a dedication if Jack Kerouac did not himself see such a

need.  And by the way, Kerouac did offer the book for publication in his

lifetime, so it wasn't just a "notebook" that Sampas happened to find.

Since Mr. Sampas chose to add a dedication, contrary to what Jack Kerouac

intended, I felt I had a right to speculate about his motives.  Jack also

lectured Neal and Carolyn Cassady about Buddhism and tried to convert both

of them, and so an equal case could be made for dedicating the book to them.

        But why invent a dedication that Kerouac himself did not want?

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:31:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Paul, what is this all about

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Paul:

 

You write to Gerry:

 

"Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul of

THe Kerouac Quarterly..."

 

We don't need this from Gerry and we don't need it from you.  I think

you just proved Gerry's point.  I for one would appreciate it if you

would refain from personal attacks on Gerry on the list.  He said

nothing to you in the post.  Let it go, or send it back channel.

 

Period.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:38:31 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

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At 08:39 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Paul Maher wrote:

 

>   I guess when Gerry has to take the turn at the end of his letter it means

>nothing. Whatever he dishes out he can expect thricefold. I can see through

>the offal that is his presence. I can smell the wake of his passing like

>being stuck behind a trash truck in rush hour.

 

Wow!!!

 

 

This actually makes me laugh it is quite over the top.  Like a Monty Python

sketch.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:45:18 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         DawnDR <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: sigh

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Dear MC:

 

Let's be QUITE accurate when laying out that quote --- considering the target.

I believe it goes, "You, Sir, are an ass!"

 

Concurrence is implied.

 

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:41:51 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: my apologies, bob

Comments: To: M84M79@aol.com

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M84M79@aol.com wrote:

> 

> Cathy and fellow listers,

> well, i'll intoduce myself: Marlene, college student in south Florida. I

> started my interest with the beats after I saw "The last time I committed

> Suicicde" last spring. So far I've only cracked the surface with what i've

> read, but I haven't stopped yet. I'm a poet and love having this forum to be

> able to share my work, even though i've only posted a piece once. I've been

> touched and inspired by the poetry posted and wonder if any of you are

> published poets, Rinaldo? Marie? Well thats me in fifty words or less. I hope

> that i will soon make friends on the list and continue to share the

> litereature that we love. Thankyou.

>                                                         ~~Marlene

 

 

 

Marlene-- i don't know if you read bob's post from last nights digest

yet or not, but he finally agreed with me in that if we want to have a

productive conversation, we have to know whom we are speaking to.  I

sincerely thank you for taking the time to say hey.  so what all have

you read yet? my recommendations, if you have not read them yet, is "go"

by john clellon holmes, and 'dharma bums' and 'the subterraneans' by

jack kerouac, and 'the first third' by neal cassady.  they will give you

an excellent history on some of the most important figures of the beat

generation.  I have found, however, that different people lean towards

different types within the beat category, and i personally need to read

and/or learn a lot more about burroughs.  i've concentrated on the

kerouac angle for many many years, and have recently been reading more

on ginsberg.  if you haven't read 'dharma lion' (ginsberg) please do.

it's a huge book, but well worth the time.

 

to tell you a little more about me--i'm 28, work in a photography store,

and i take photos of musicians and my friends as a hobby.  I also write

poetry, trying hard to assemble the whole mass into publishable form.

so if anyone is interested in critiquing a few pieces for me, let me

know.

 

cw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:54:32 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      re; shut up!

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Subject:

>         shut up!

>   Date:

>         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:41:40 -0400

>   From:

>         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

> 

> 

> Just shut up! Shut up!  Arrrrrrgh!  This is incredibly aggravating.  What

> started as contested points, became an arguement, then bickering, then an

> all out bitch slap.  The the dust settled (or paused) for a day or so now

> now an arguement about the arguement.  Shut up!  Let it drop!  Move on!

> You people are driving me feakin' bananas!   Yah-yah-yah-yah!  Silence

> yourselves!  The only problem anyone has is that it never stops and gets

> nasty.  Just don't let it get nasty, and don't perpetuate it.  So, STOP!

> DAMMIT!  This is getting silly.

> 

 

 

 

alex, i'm sorry.  i laughed when i read this.  it reminded me so much of

myself when all of my friends get in an argument over something stupid.

cw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:02:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Richard Wallner's Farewell

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At 11:33 AM 10/24/97 -0400, Richard Wallner wrote:

>Ive seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on

>against me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about

>this list and its integrity.  I just wanted Bill Gargan to say he

>understood my concerns.

> 

>So now Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about.  I'll miss being

>on this list.  But nobody here wants to give me or my motives the benefit

>of the doubt.  Nobody wants to accept that I had good intentions.

 

        I feel compelled to speak a few words for Mr. Wallner.  I have held

my tongue now for a couple of days as Richard got himself caught in a heavy

crossfire of attacks, as I myself have been in the past.  I did not want to

jump in and be accused of promoting further flame wars.

        But Mr. Wallner should not have to leave the list, and I for one do

believe his intentions were good.

        I also want to state at the start that IN NO WAY DO I WISH TO ATTACK

MR. GARGAN.  I have found him to be in general a fair-minded man who appears

to care deeply about Beat literature.  I also admit that I put him in a

tough position by asking for protection against the kind of defamation of

character that was being practiced against me here (and against the kind of

invasion of privacy that went on last May, with Rod Anstee printing my

private letters to him, not even email, but letters that were typed and

signed to him as private correspondence).

        My initial feeling was that anyone on the Beat-List should be

protected against character assassination and/or invasion of privacy.  But

as time went on, I came to see that that sort of request puts Mr. Gargan in

the untenable position of censor or moderator.  There are 4 alternatives to

the person thus being defamed: 1) attack back in a similar "dirty" fashion;

2) leave the list; 3) sue the list and shut it down; 4) ignore the abuse,

slander, etc.  I have tried 1, at least to the extent of throwing a few

slightly below-the-belt punches myself--it did no good.  For one thing,

reinforcements were simply brought in, so that I was boxing with four

opponents at the same time, in which case even below-the-belt punches don't

help much.  I tried 2, and that FAILED TO PREVENT THE KIND OF ONE-SIDEDNESS

I was opposing--it only enhanced the bias in favor of Mr. Sampas.  I never

threatened to sue the list, but I told Bill I was being pushed to a point

where I would have to take such an approach, if my private correspondence

kept getting posted as if it were yesterday's newspaper.  And I clearly told

him I DID NOT WANT TO BE IN THAT POSITION--to have to close down a list to

protect my privacy--ESPECIALLY WHEN THE LIST IS AS WONDERFUL AND VALUABLE AS

BEAT-L.  I pleaded with him to act BEFORE WE REACHED THAT POINT.  He did.

So that leaves 4, which really seems the only alternative that "works."

I'll give it my best shot for a while.

        But back to Mr. Wallner, and the supposed attack on Mr. Gargan.  Mr.

Wallner was, to a large extent, simply echoing my own complaint about being

deprived of the right of self-defense.  I DO NOT THINK MR. GARGAN IS AN

UNFAIR MAN, BUT I DO THINK HE MADE A BAD CALL.  And I told him so.  (I've

played baseball all my life, and the right to question the ump is a sacred

one, although admittedly it can get you kicked out.)

        My complaint was based on the fact that Messieurs Maher, Hemenway,

et al. had been promoting Mr. Sampas and Mr. Sampas's events for several

months while I was off the Beat-List.  I knew about their posts, but I did

not jump in to stop them or attack them.  I let them have their right of

free speech.  (And I know Mr. Hemenway is about to tell me that Kerouac Week

is not a Sampas-sponsored event, but the names of John Sampas and Stella

Sampas are on several pieces of their promotional advertising; and there is

no other way to explain no OFFICIAL mention of the passing of Jan Kerouac,

whose ashes were buried a few miles from Lowell only four months earlier;

especially since they ignored her death the previous year too; and yet they

went out of their way to honor Allen Ginsberg's death this year.)

        I do not bring all this stuff up to start the Estate debate again,

but simply to point out that I was being extremely patient in letting the

other side talk its talk.  But two hours, TWO HOURS(!), after I reappeared

(on October 15) to talk about my legal victory in Florida, Maher was posting

a denunciation, followed by Chaput, followed by Gyenis, followed by

Hemenway.  I was trying to get Mr. Gargan to ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DISCREPANCY,

before he simply tossed the label "mud slinger" or "brawler" on me, as

several of you have done.  I do not want brawls, and I do not want

mudslinging.  But when I show extreme patience with the other side's

pro-Sampas postings, for months on end, I think earn the right to have

similar patience and deference shown to me.

        I think we have to establish a difference between the right to

"sling mud" and the right to defend oneself.  And I think that was at the

bottom of Mr. Wallner's posts for the past several days.

        That is all I am going to say.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:10:45 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: i'm beginning to hear voices..

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:39:28 -0600 from <syoung@DSW.COM>

 

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:39:28 -0600 Sean Young said:

>     Marie,

> 

>     same plane.

>     dylan CD all around.

>     alternating with Harry Smith's folk anthology.

> 

>     many voices. lost times

> 

>     AH

> 

>     SDY

> 

> 

>______________________________ Reply Separator

>_________________________________

>Subject: i'm beginning to hear voices..

>Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

>Date:    10/24/97 1:23 PM

> 

> 

>...and there's no one around...

>WHO IS BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY CD PLAYER???

> 

>thank the gods and goddesses:

>all and whoever.

> 

>the best matured combo of blonde on blonde, new morining and blood on

>the tracks.

>i'm in dylan heaven....

>mc

 

 Sean, can you post specifics on Harry Smith's anthology?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:30:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:28 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 07:47 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>     If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

>>negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

>>else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

>>dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul of

>>THe Kerouac Quarterly...

>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

>Dear Mr. Maher--   Oct 24, 1997

>        I am a scholar, sir, and my credentials are a lot more impressive

>than yours.

>        I will do as Mr. Gargan requested and ignore your abuse.

>        But I will address an important point, which you miss.  THE POINT

>IS, JACK KEROUAC DID NOT DEDICATE THAT BOOK TO ALLEN GINSBERG.  It was

>presumptuous and arrogant of Mr. Sampas to dedicate the book for him.  There

>was no need for a dedication if Jack Kerouac did not himself see such a

>need.  And by the way, Kerouac did offer the book for publication in his

>lifetime, so it wasn't just a "notebook" that Sampas happened to find.

>Since Mr. Sampas chose to add a dedication, contrary to what Jack Kerouac

>intended, I felt I had a right to speculate about his motives.  Jack also

>lectured Neal and Carolyn Cassady about Buddhism and tried to convert both

>of them, and so an equal case could be made for dedicating the book to them.

>        But why invent a dedication that Kerouac himself did not want?

>        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

>As the executor, I believe he has the authority to do so...and that is all

we have to know. Why speculate? I hope your credentials are a lot more

impressive than mine since you are older than me. But, to my credentials,

besides stealing library books for which I am eternally grateful in the

respect that the outcome of that crime changed me for the better. I have

published two essays on Kerouac in scholarly journals, one is The

Commonwealth Review of Massachusetts and the other,The Journal of American

Studies (Literature). I have written and completed a first draft of a

five-hundred and seven page biography on Kerouac and Lowell, I have just

finished co-editing a textbook entitled,"Emerging American Values", I have

written four novels which I have yet to publish, two quarterlies, and

fifty-eight oil paintings and several uncounted drawings and assorted mixed

media. Perhaps the undercurrents of my criminal mentality contributed to the

Dionysian frenzy of my productivity, perhaps I can encourage my egoism as

the muse of my creativity, at least I don't try to deny or conceal my acts

of creation. Thus my strength and my strategy, patterned on a single

landscape from which my roots draw their sap.

Likewise my thought,my mind: so wildly concentrated upon itself, a block of

diamond whose multiple facets are so brilliantly shimmering that the reality

surrounding it is disconcerted, deceived, snared, decoyed. What can you do

to convince me otherwise that you are my equal? Paul....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:13:14 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Nobody But Mr. Sampas

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                                Oct 24,1997

Dear Beat-L Readers,

        In all the brouhaha and flame wars of the past few days, a line in

one of Mr. Maher's long posts may have slipped past you.  It nearly slipped

past me.

        The line, in his post of 10/22, was: "He [Mr. Sampas] has every

letter from the MEMORY BABE collection that was penned by and to Jack Kerouac."

        Now listen to that, will you?

        Do you know what that means?

        It means, while Mr. Sampas is going over to the MEMORY BABE

collection, which I put at U Mass, Lowell, and WHILE HE IS TELLING THE

LIBRARIAN TO SHUT THE COLLECTION TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC, he is at the same

time demanding that the librarian let him copy all 2,000 Kerouac letters (in

xerox) that I put in that collection.

        In other words, Mr. Sampas wants the right to all the information I

have in the MEMORY BABE collection, and he ALREADY HAS IT!  But at the same

time, he would deny the same privilege, and the same information, to every

one of you.

        In my book, they used to call that selfish.  A case could also be

made for hypocritical.

        Nobody but Mr. Sampas is worthy of reading those 2,000 Jack Kerouac

letters, evidently.

        That deeply troubles me.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:12:04 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:22:07 -0400 from

              <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

 

Hope my suggestions weren't seen as hostile.  I think students sometimes expect

 more help from a list like this they can really get.  Sure, we can suggest rea

dings but I don't think we're going to be able to discuss a topic sufficiently

to help an undergraduate or high school student write a paper without reading t

he text or consulting basic resources.  If it's a matter of answering a specifi

c question, that's a different story.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:34:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:38 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 08:39 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Paul Maher wrote:

> 

>>   I guess when Gerry has to take the turn at the end of his letter it means

>>nothing. Whatever he dishes out he can expect thricefold. I can see through

>>the offal that is his presence. I can smell the wake of his passing like

>>being stuck behind a trash truck in rush hour.

> 

>Wow!!!

> 

> 

>This actually makes me laugh it is quite over the top.  Like a Monty Python

>sketch.

>Thanks for being able to discenr the subtelties and nuances of my humor.

Most don't seem to possess a sense of humor on this list. they are

so.....serious.

I think we should have a Gerry Nicosia Roast. I love him, he's a warm and

loving guy. I want to be his friend. I want to be his good friend. I wish he

would be my friend. I wonder if he'd sign my copy of Memory Babe? Paul of

...you know.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:17:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Cut up Kerouac

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I have reached back onto my book shelf.  I have taken a book from

Kerouac portion without reading the title first.  It is Book of Dreams.

I am opening it randomly.  The page 121 and the dream begins thusly:

 

"WRITING DREAMS, TAKE NOTE OF THE WAY THE DREAMING MIND CREATES

 

THE ANNALS OF JACK KEROUAC--Annals indeed--anal ones--the Mind wished

and dream'd itself a spate of San Jose where I'm taken to the parking

lot of work at a location I hadn't daydreamed, on that road leading

North from Santa Clara ...  but the Mind loses control of the scene in a

toilet across the street from Cody's house and Cody and I are taking

craps side by side in a double crapper, Cody is talking about an actor

as I wipe myself with paper, he says "But you know he's queer, he blows

the Kings" and I have my part on my lap while wiping myself, it's naked,

and at the mention of these erotic matters I can feel the swelling so I

hurry to wipe up ere it's a pole but get all tangled in the wiping and

get some crap in my mouth, a piece, of some reason with paper and

reaching in and pieces that get stuck and logics about teeth ...."

 

That is different. I will try another in a moment.  Another random page,

like cut up Kerouac. Maybe this will change the way the wind blows.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:38:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Richard Wallner's Farewell

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At 06:02 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 11:33 AM 10/24/97 -0400, Richard Wallner wrote:

>>Ive seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on

>>against me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about

>>this list and its integrity.  I just wanted Bill Gargan to say he

>>understood my concerns.

>> 

>>So now Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about.  I'll miss being

>>on this list.  But nobody here wants to give me or my motives the benefit

>>of the doubt.  Nobody wants to accept that I had good intentions.

> 

>        I feel compelled to speak a few words for Mr. Wallner.  I have held

>my tongue now for a couple of days as Richard got himself caught in a heavy

>crossfire of attacks, as I myself have been in the past.  I did not want to

>jump in and be accused of promoting further flame wars.

>        But Mr. Wallner should not have to leave the list, and I for one do

>believe his intentions were good.

>        I also want to state at the start that IN NO WAY DO I WISH TO ATTACK

>MR. GARGAN.  I have found him to be in general a fair-minded man who appears

>to care deeply about Beat literature.  I also admit that I put him in a

>tough position by asking for protection against the kind of defamation of

>character that was being practiced against me here (and against the kind of

>invasion of privacy that went on last May, with Rod Anstee printing my

>private letters to him, not even email, but letters that were typed and

>signed to him as private correspondence).

>        My initial feeling was that anyone on the Beat-List should be

>protected against character assassination and/or invasion of privacy.  But

>as time went on, I came to see that that sort of request puts Mr. Gargan in

>the untenable position of censor or moderator.  There are 4 alternatives to

>the person thus being defamed: 1) attack back in a similar "dirty" fashion;

>2) leave the list; 3) sue the list and shut it down; 4) ignore the abuse,

>slander, etc.  I have tried 1, at least to the extent of throwing a few

>slightly below-the-belt punches myself--it did no good.  For one thing,

>reinforcements were simply brought in, so that I was boxing with four

>opponents at the same time, in which case even below-the-belt punches don't

>help much.  I tried 2, and that FAILED TO PREVENT THE KIND OF ONE-SIDEDNESS

>I was opposing--it only enhanced the bias in favor of Mr. Sampas.  I never

>threatened to sue the list, but I told Bill I was being pushed to a point

>where I would have to take such an approach, if my private correspondence

>kept getting posted as if it were yesterday's newspaper.  And I clearly told

>him I DID NOT WANT TO BE IN THAT POSITION--to have to close down a list to

>protect my privacy--ESPECIALLY WHEN THE LIST IS AS WONDERFUL AND VALUABLE AS

>BEAT-L.  I pleaded with him to act BEFORE WE REACHED THAT POINT.  He did.

>So that leaves 4, which really seems the only alternative that "works."

>I'll give it my best shot for a while.

>        But back to Mr. Wallner, and the supposed attack on Mr. Gargan.  Mr.

>Wallner was, to a large extent, simply echoing my own complaint about being

>deprived of the right of self-defense.  I DO NOT THINK MR. GARGAN IS AN

>UNFAIR MAN, BUT I DO THINK HE MADE A BAD CALL.  And I told him so.  (I've

>played baseball all my life, and the right to question the ump is a sacred

>one, although admittedly it can get you kicked out.)

>        My complaint was based on the fact that Messieurs Maher, Hemenway,

>et al. had been promoting Mr. Sampas and Mr. Sampas's events for several

>months while I was off the Beat-List.  I knew about their posts, but I did

>not jump in to stop them or attack them.  I let them have their right of

>free speech.  (And I know Mr. Hemenway is about to tell me that Kerouac Week

>is not a Sampas-sponsored event, but the names of John Sampas and Stella

>Sampas are on several pieces of their promotional advertising; and there is

>no other way to explain no OFFICIAL mention of the passing of Jan Kerouac,

>whose ashes were buried a few miles from Lowell only four months earlier;

>especially since they ignored her death the previous year too; and yet they

>went out of their way to honor Allen Ginsberg's death this year.)

>        I do not bring all this stuff up to start the Estate debate again,

>but simply to point out that I was being extremely patient in letting the

>other side talk its talk.  But two hours, TWO HOURS(!), after I reappeared

>(on October 15) to talk about my legal victory in Florida, Maher was posting

>a denunciation, followed by Chaput, followed by Gyenis, followed by

>Hemenway.  I was trying to get Mr. Gargan to ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DISCREPANCY,

>before he simply tossed the label "mud slinger" or "brawler" on me, as

>several of you have done.  I do not want brawls, and I do not want

>mudslinging.  But when I show extreme patience with the other side's

>pro-Sampas postings, for months on end, I think earn the right to have

>similar patience and deference shown to me.

>        I think we have to establish a difference between the right to

>"sling mud" and the right to defend oneself.  And I think that was at the

>bottom of Mr. Wallner's posts for the past several days.

>        That is all I am going to say.

>        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

>Can you be my friend Gerry?

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:23:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!/I hate it when that happens

In-Reply-To:  <345137E2.D819FA1@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Bentz wrote:

>attention they will see that we are not here to do their work for them.

 

When requests like that arrive on the list I beleive it's best to refer

them to the Reference Desk at the nearest public, college or university

library.  They will steer them to the reviews, the books, the critics, etc.

The library is where the action is.

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:19:11 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      pull my daisy

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

to all the BEAT-L's

 

thanks so much for all the suggestions on where to find all versions of

pull my daisy.  the video was the one i was most interested in.

 

next: informal poll:

 

is there anyone else from iowa on this list???

 

or chicago--i get there quite often.

 

--"wherever you go, there you are"

buckaroo bonzai

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:28:12 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:41:34 -0400 from

              <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

 

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:41:34 -0400 Alex Howard said:

>> 

>>      If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

>> negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

>> else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

>> dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul

> 

>Now, this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've

>been hearing come about.  You were doing just fine until you hit this

>paragraph.  In fact I had just finished sending off a post that said much

>the same thing (I read it in the introduction as well).  If you really

>want to prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you

>can do so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about

>it.

> 

>------------------

>Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

>kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

 

Mr. Howard makes a good point.  Let's correct each other but let's try to do wi

th civility.   Let's all make a conscious effort not to offend one another beca

use, after all, it's pointless in the end.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:40:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Seoncd cut up

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I am going to stick with Book of Dreams.  This time, I will cut together

approximately 2 sentences from 5 different pages chosen at random.  I

will enclose the whole in quotes.  And remember it will make sense as

this is about dreams anyway.

 

"A TREMENDOUS FAMILY SAGA, it takes place in a huge high apartment by

the sea, the same sea of Tidal Waves and Sea Battles-- there are

intelligent child girls, earlier in the opening of the Saga, in a big

room, after something to do with the Girl of the Huge Room, Halvar Hayes

holds a kitten by the neck choking it and me and someone else (Joe

Gavota was around) try to break his grip--"You're choking that cat to

death!"  I cry and try clawing Hal's face, pushing his nose in, pulling

his hair, everything, kicking, him in the balls so he'll leave that

kitty go and he wont--now 'tis the other side of town but the same

Bowery like darkness and after eating which takes me two hours and my

thoughts are so vast while eating that when I wake up and realize my

mind'd run thru two hundred dreay mind-weary Finnegangs Wakes, half

awake goofball sleep--something to do with a waitress girl, burns--I

leave and head back home to "First Avenue" tho geographically it's

Eleventh Avenue West Side--and it's not that she doesnt love me,

business and circumstance compel her to leave--(she loves me, she loves

me not)--

 

DRIVING IN TWO CADILLACS one a '52 one a '47 Limousine, with a gang of

friends--the driver is Jim Calabrese-Mexican kid--we're going Lombard St

Frisco and part Lowell, go down a very steep hill, stop all to get out

and buy cigarettes--Lousy, Guy Green, lots of girls--Jim is smiling--We

went over some canal--"COOL IT" I say to a gang of crazy boys I been

playin on the rollercoasters with, as one starts shouting loudly about

the marijuana exploits I taught them-"Ah hell, cool it yaself" is the

answer from my disciples--We're in our shorts and T-shirts, I feel tired

or trying to keep up with the consequences of the Beat Generation and

all lubrigious in the dream--Wake up in Lowell Skidrow---

        'T' is only the quite of the Sainte Jeanne d'Arc Church on the

great gray day of Nov.21 1954 that I saw: "The Beatific Generation"

 

AT THE LONG ISLAND GRAYBEACH a big family reunion and event  but instead

of starting off on time I goof at basketball in the empty Y court,

removing coat but not shirt and tie and I'll get all sweaty--I go across

the litters, enter a store, a beautiful sexy brunette says turning to

her father "See, all the men go for me"--this after I apprasied her with

appreciation and said something--

    I start to wake up and forget all about her sex to speculate with

myself and with them about these millions--(Railroad call, knock on

door)--

    And at that very day I see for the first time a brown ranch style

prefabricated house being rolled out on wheels at San Mateo--right out

on the road--and mention the dream to brakeman Neal McGee, who laughs

and says, "Well that must have been a nightmare!"

 

 

And that is the end of the Book of Dreams cut up.  I think it is

actually speaking to the list, what do you think?  David, catch this

when you get back dude.

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:49:56 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:34:32 -0400 from

              <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

 

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:34:32 -0400 Paul A. Maher Jr. said:

>At 05:38 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>At 08:39 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Paul Maher wrote:

>> 

>>>   I guess when Gerry has to take the turn at the end of his letter it means

>>>nothing. Whatever he dishes out he can expect thricefold. I can see through

>>>the offal that is his presence. I can smell the wake of his passing like

>>>being stuck behind a trash truck in rush hour.

>> 

>>Wow!!!

>> 

>> 

>>This actually makes me laugh it is quite over the top.  Like a Monty Python

>>sketch.

>>Thanks for being able to discenr the subtelties and nuances of my humor.

>Most don't seem to possess a sense of humor on this list. they are

>so.....serious.

>I think we should have a Gerry Nicosia Roast. I love him, he's a warm and

>loving guy. I want to be his friend. I want to be his good friend. I wish he

>would be my friend. I wonder if he'd sign my copy of Memory Babe? Paul of

>...you know.

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

 

   I wish we could all be friends or at least friendly enemies.  Now, let's bac

k to talking about the lives and works of the Beat Generation.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:49:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Question to Maher

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Gerry says that you posted:

 

"The line, in his post of 10/22, was: "He [Mr. Sampas] has every

letter from the MEMORY BABE collection that was penned by and to Jack

Kerouac."

 

If this is true, will he be so kind as to provide to the library copies

of the letters that were stolen from the library.  I am quite serious

about this.  If he as copies of the stolen letters, he should be glad to

help out the library and Kerouac scholars.  This is not a flame, but a

serious request.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:26:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Nobody But Mr. Sampas

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 06:13 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:

>                                Oct 24,1997

>Dear Beat-L Readers,

>        In all the brouhaha and flame wars of the past few days, a line in

>one of Mr. Maher's long posts may have slipped past you.  It nearly slipped

>past me.

>        The line, in his post of 10/22, was: "He [Mr. Sampas] has every

>letter from the MEMORY BABE collection that was penned by and to Jack Kerouac."

>        Now listen to that, will you?

>        Do you know what that means?

>        It means, while Mr. Sampas is going over to the MEMORY BABE

>collection, which I put at U Mass, Lowell, and WHILE HE IS TELLING THE

>LIBRARIAN TO SHUT THE COLLECTION TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC, he is at the same

>time demanding that the librarian let him copy all 2,000 Kerouac letters (in

>xerox) that I put in that collection.

>        In other words, Mr. Sampas wants the right to all the information I

>have in the MEMORY BABE collection, and he ALREADY HAS IT!  But at the same

>time, he would deny the same privilege, and the same information, to every

>one of you.

>        In my book, they used to call that selfish.  A case could also be

>made for hypocritical.

>        Nobody but Mr. Sampas is worthy of reading those 2,000 Jack Kerouac

>letters, evidently.

>        That deeply troubles me.

>        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

>except those letters belong to the estate. Would i question the pooint of

you demaniding a copy of your memory Babe manuscript? No...its yours. Well,

the letters belong to the esate and they can get anything they want as long

as they foot the xeroxing charges. Contestable? No. P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:42:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Question to Maher

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:49 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Gerry says that you posted:

> 

>"The line, in his post of 10/22, was: "He [Mr. Sampas] has every

>letter from the MEMORY BABE collection that was penned by and to Jack

>Kerouac."

> 

>If this is true, will he be so kind as to provide to the library copies

>of the letters that were stolen from the library.  I am quite serious

>about this.  If he as copies of the stolen letters, he should be glad to

>help out the library and Kerouac scholars.  This is not a flame, but a

>serious request.

> 

>--

> 

>Peace,

> 

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

>The letters in question are copies of Jack Kerouac letters. Letters which,

by virtue of their reproduction constitutes copyright infringement upon the

estate so who were they stolen from? That is my question to you. P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:41:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      some of the dharma (was Re: Kerouac's dedications)

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> Alex Howard wrote:

 

>  I'd like to get some more impressions

> from people if anyone happens to have waded through it by now.

 

I haven't waded through it yet; if fact, I just obtained it today.  But I

am very interested in hearing what those that have read it have learned.

And, particularly, how does it differ from where he was in his thinking

when he wrote Desolation Angels?  One passage that jumped out at me in

randomly skimming is on page 319:

 

"Religion must be considered for what it really is, an insight into

reality, and not as a wishful dream of hope--As soon as it is pointed out

that there is but one Essential Thatness to all multiplicities of created

things in all the directions of the Universe, One Tathagata (not one

'God' which is always misleading people away from the simple

understanding of the Essential Thatness, that Honey, that Gold that

everything's made of, that Formbliss Whichness), then people will stop

wishful thinking and deluded human hoping and face the fact that there is

no soul, no continuance of soul after life, indeed no life, no death, no

beings, no creation, but only what appears in the mind itself."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:47:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Drag Racin

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Drag Racin

 

In 1970 in Georgia,

On 84 just beyond Boston,

(On the way to Quitman),

There was a strectch of highway,

Perfectly straight,

Almost one-half a mile;

But we wanted only a quarter.

 

Past midnight, past time we had

Climbed out of windows,

Past time we had hidden in bushes,

Til the ride arrived,

We arrived.

SS 396, bored, stroked.

GTO, Hurst speed shifter,

Black with red interior.

 

Hoyt would drind a Pabst in less than 3 seconds.

Someone would shine light here

And one quarter there.

No cops out here by god.

(This is close to dry lake,

if you have ever been there.

It is dry every winter,

Say it is some kind of sink hole.

In the summer you can ski,

But it is so narrow,

That you have to drop at each end.)

 

Anyway,

Russell and Lacy had overprimed.

We were listening to Canned Wheat,

She's cum undun.

Scared but not showing,

Like I had done this before.

Yeah right.

Not going to let them know,

That I am thinking, if the cops

DO show up, I will cut across that

Dove field, throught those woods

And run to Kelly Hardin's house.

They won't take me alive.

 

Bets are placed,

The twins flip to see who will drive.

Someone has to drop the flag.

It begins loud, rrrrrrrrrrrbblllltttttterrrrrrrr,

growing RRRRRBBBLLLLERRRRRRRRR

Until shaking, I want to run, but push chest out.

Then, unleashed, like the holy fury.

ERRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIII, screechhhhhhhhhhh,

Uuuuuunnnnnnhhhhnnnn,  uuuuuhhhnn,

UUUUUUUNNNNNHHHHHHM,

chicckk, clliiccckkkk,  sparks,

Thummmmerrrrrrrr.............

Dead,

Sparks flying,

Dead SS396.

Get a chain,

Tow him back.

GTO wins.

I lose my money.

Fuck this shit man.

It's too late,

She's cum.

It's gone.

Cheap chevy transmissions.

A roadrunner can take going into reverse at 55,

This damn Chevy stuff is just crap.

 

Nah, they just put the best stuff in the Pontiacs.

Well, I heard Lacy is going to get a Shelby Cobra.

Hey, Hollis is going to shoot another beer man.

 

Do you think we'll get caught when we sneak back in.

We'll sleep all day tomorrow.

Drag racin, Highway 84, 1970 style.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:00:34 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Paul Maher & the Future of Kerouac Scholarship

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At 09:30 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Paul Maher wrote: I have

>published two essays on Kerouac in scholarly journals, one is The

>Commonwealth Review of Massachusetts and the other,The Journal of American

>Studies (Literature). I have written and completed a first draft of a

>five-hundred and seven page biography on Kerouac and Lowell, I have just

>finished co-editing a textbook entitled,"Emerging American Values", I have

>written four novels which I have yet to publish, two quarterlies, and

>fifty-eight oil paintings and several uncounted drawings and assorted mixed

>media.

                                Oct 24, 1997

Paul,

        I do not wish you ill in your career.  Quite the contrary, I wish

you the very best..  But when you refer to me as "if you were a scholar" it

is bound to strike me the wrong way.

        I have fought in the Beat/Kerouac trenches for more than two

decades.  When I began researching MEMORY BABE, over 20 years ago, you could

count the no. of Kerouac/Beat courses around the country ON YOUR FINGERS.

There was Jake Leed at Kent State, Chuck Jarvis in Lowell, Al Gelpi at

Stanford, Jay McHale at Salem State College, John Tytell at Queens College,

and Joy Walsh at SUNY Buffalo.  At least half the courses were by people who

had known Kerouac personally.  Nobody was offering me research grants or any

other kind of backing.

        Ann Charters always had her tenured position as a professor at U of

Connecticut to fall back on, as she ventured from anthologizing short

stories into Beat territory, but I had no such haven, no secure economic

berth.  I lectured sporadically, wrote book reviews and personality

profiles, took on editorial work, even substitute taught to pay for my Beat

research.  When MEMORY BABE was published, a lot of the attacks on it were

focused on the fact that I had rated Kerouac TOO HIGHLY, that I had dared to

compare him with Proust, Joyce, Melville, and Balzac--which even as late as

1983 was considered to be virtual insanity among a lot of academics.

        I have pushed recognition of Kerouac and the Beats in every possible

way, thru hundreds of lectures, articles, and reviews.  I am deeply

gratified to see that the recognition is finally starting to hit in a big

way. And I am gratified that a younger generation of scholars and writers is

picking up the torch.  I do not expect to live forever, and I am fully aware

of HOW MUCH scholarship still needs to be done in this area.  I want to see

people like yourself filled with fire and enthusiasm to enlarge

understanding of these writers' works, which have had such a powerful impact

in the direction of humanizing and spiritualizing America.  We need only

look at the lack of concern for the homeless, or AIDS victims, or Vietnam

vets, or those in prison, or the huge unemployed segments of our population

in various ghettos, to realize America still has a long way to go in terms

of becoming the humane, compassionate nation the Beats wanted it to be.

        This is hardly a job for Gerald Nicosia alone.  As a matter of fact,

Gerald Nicosia is getting pretty tired.  Go to it, guy.

        I only wish you could see that my long, hard fight to see that the

Kerouac archive is placed and made accessible at a good library--as well as

my fight to reopen the MEMORY BABE archive--is a fight FOR people like you,

a fight to increase Kerouac and Beat scholarship, not to suppress it.

        I hope you take this post as a peace offering.  It is intended as

one.  And if you're still willing to send your "detractors" a copy of

KEROUAC QUARTERLY No. 2, please send me one.

        I would prefer to be your supporter than your detractor.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:59:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      memories

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Williams curiosity and friends.

 

one day on shooting hill

surrounded by snow

we unloaded snakes, by the pound,

the box, the crate, wrapped across our shoulders.

the gibbon viper, was a prehistoric monster

i can vision him any time, i just close my eyes

thick like a steel slug.

devils horns, and power.

he was too cold to move,

dull and deadly.

 

then the glass case.

five sides, brass trim.

the green mamba.

it was never cold

as alert as any living thing

i had ever seen.

erect like a pistol hard

curved slim green ribbon.

it followed you smoothly

as you crossed the room

carrying the bags of cobras

with their babies.

 

Dean said, if this one gets out

he will wait up high,

when you open the door

he'll fly down,

your dead in a minute.

 

i tacked a note on the cabin door,

for the fbi

attention, deadly snakes

animal hazard.

do not enter,

contact

patricia elliott.

heavy kansas cold

a living fence in case.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:20:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: memories

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>

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it is simply  a memory of an hour i spent one day.  Knowing william was

good for strong memories.

i am a handy person.

a friend of williams came to town

needed a place to stay and store his stuff.

i helped him unload. some one asked if i went so in case of an accident

i could go for help.  Dean said, oh no that is not necessary there isn't

antivenom for most of these guys. dean had caught them on his trip and

was delivering them to places in the states.

 

i enjoyed your poem on racing,

i am on a diet of poems.

having gagged on justice and what is right.

i have gone to my boxes to sort

and find thing after thing i want to post

but am unsure about copyright infringement.

a lot of my box is funny little books.

 

are memories of days with william beat

or are they just self conscious greivings.

 

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:27:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: in memory of Beat-L archive 95,

              blues of bob dylan and robert creeley

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971024224344.00778964@pop.gpnet.it>

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On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> > GET BEAT-L LOG9505 BEAT-L

> File "BEAT-L LOG9505" is not yet available.

> 

> i remain speechless --rinaldo rasa

 

speak, i have a backup of all the files on cd-rom...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:41:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: return of the Barnes and Nobel beatnik.

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971024182207.30029B-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

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On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:

 

>         COMMERCIALISM ALERT: why hasn't anyone printed a beat generation

> calender, using some of Allen's photos? Or perhaps a small desk calender

> with a quote from a beat source for each day?

 

who "owns" the data? the words/photos? not just anyone could do this, i

would think, without something as ugly as the e****e battle happening. great

idea though.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:00:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      oh rinaldo

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one of my first memories of beat-l is meeting rinaldo.  he posted in

italian,

some poor soul suggested that english would be the thing, and dear

rinaldo said, you provincial pig.  this is all impolite paraphrase, it

was done so civilly, but the exchange reminded me of william, gently

chiding my prejudice. i found this on the memorial page

http://sunsite.unc.edu/mal/MO/wsb/index.html

and thought it

would be ok to post it here.

 

 

 

       Ho vissuto un amore di parole per il vecchio Zio Bill.

       Adesso mi piace pensare che sia volato in uno dei

       suoi paradisi pieni di ragazzi selvaggi,di foreste pluviali,

       di azzurre visioni indotte dallo yage.

       Tra fumi nitrosi e sole sui peli del pube, penny arcade peep

       shows,ragazzi con elmi cobalto e ali di mercurio ai

       sandali e agenti di altri pianeti.

       Come lui ci ha insegnato, lasciandoci ricchi e non orfani...

       "NIENTE E' VERO, TUTTO E' PERMESSO"

       Requiescat in Pace

 

 

                 Ferdinando Padrelampreda <lampreda@lycosemail.com>

              Palermo, Italy - Wednesday, October 22, 1997 at 05:28:30

(EDT)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:18:57 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Is the still a post limit?

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Whatever happened to the 50 post a day limit on Beat-L from long ago?

If I am away from my computer for an evening I'm buried.  Maybe a

reimposition of the limit would reduce posts about such important topics

as whether B. Dalton's is keeping JK on the shelves, etc.

 

JS

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:18:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      bible code

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hey, anybody know much about _the bible code_, anybody read it or take a

good look at it yet?

 

something on my todo list has been to perform cutups on bible text. nothing

really technical or farout there, but i thought it'd be entertaining to see

what you'd get. plus i wanted to gauge outside reaction, if any, from

christers to such a thing if it got put online.

 

then i hear about the bible code book:

 

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0684810794/theultimateA/6650-9345000-9

 63975>

 

some israelis with "powerful computers" analyse the old testament and

discover a code - something extremely goofy like every 5 words forms a

sentence i think i heard - but anyway the premise of the book is that the

old testament predicts the future! far out sci-fi ideas, huh? the way i see

it (and like i said i haven't really looked), these guys are basically

fooling with bible cutups... now look, they went and done that fooling with

structure of meaning in holy bible, scrambling re-interpreting thoughts,

think it predicts the _future_, armegeddon etc.

 

was a premise of cut-ups that the text was alive?

 

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:39:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Nobody But Mr. Sampas

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971025022638.006a8870@pop.pipeline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> >except those letters belong to the estate. Would i question the pooint of

> you demaniding a copy of your memory Babe manuscript? No...its yours. Well,

> the letters belong to the esate and they can get anything they want as long

> as they foot the xeroxing charges. Contestable? No.

 

Okay, okay, okay--let me explain this so that I'm sure I understand.  The

letters to which you are referring are the letters written by Kerouac to

various people?  Therefore those various people own the actual physical

letters themselves and Gerry's copies (or originals) were placed in the

archive.  The estate, having ownership rights over the words on the page

as they were uttered by Kerouac, owns those letters in the Memory Babe

archive as far as liscencing and publishing are concerned.  Say, if

someone wanted to publish the contents of the archive in book form, they

would have to get the estate's permission to publish those letters written

by Kerouac.  The estate does not, however, have ownership over the actual

physical existing-as-a-paper-product letters.  The photocopies of those

actual physical existing-as-a-paper-product letters are now property of U.

Mass-Lowell.  Is this correct?  Is this what you were meaning?

 

And as the Kerouac estate has ownership over the words written by Kerouac

on those photocopies of the original letters, that is the leverage that

they can exert on U. Mass-Lowell.  Correct?  Still, though, its the

physical objects that people are wanting to look at.  This is the kind of

thing a judge needs to rule on.  If this is correct, I think it is a

failing of our copywrite and intellectual properties laws that lies at the

root of this.

 

Moving on to the other suggestion....

 

Does the estate have copies of the stolen letters and such?  So that, if

this all were resolved, the missing material could be (hypothetically)

recovered?

 

My understanding of what's going on here is particularly fuzzy, so please

correct me if I am misunderstanding your meaning.

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:49:39 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Nobody But Mr. Sampas

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:39 AM 10/25/97 -0400, Alex Howard wrote:

>And as the Kerouac estate has ownership over the words written by Kerouac

>on those photocopies of the original letters, that is the leverage that

>they can exert on U. Mass-Lowell.  Correct?  Still, though, its the

>physical objects that people are wanting to look at.  This is the kind of

>thing a judge needs to rule on.  If this is correct, I think it is a

>failing of our copywrite and intellectual properties laws that lies at the

>root of this.

 

Dear Alex Howard:  Oct 24, 1997

        There is no failing of the copyright law.  Mr. Sampas DOES NOT HAVE

THE LEGAL RIGHT TO KEEP YOU FROM READING KEROUAC LETTERS IN ANY FORM.  I

have checked this out with libraries and lawyers across the country.  Sampas

simply bluffed the U Mass, Lowell Library, and since he is a big fish in the

small pond of Lowell, he got his way.  I may be forced to bring a breach of

contract suit against the library for failing to make the collection

accessible, as I stipulated, with the aim of freeing the archive to be

placed in another library that does not live in mortal fear of Mr. Sampas's

political sway.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:53:00 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      A Small Request

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Dear BEAT-L subscribers,

 

     Due to the large volume of messages (not a bad thing) I would

request that if you are sending something to me for my web site you

please preface it with KM or end it with KM because that will make it

easier for me to distinguish the new topic entries from peoples

contributions.

     Thank you so much for all your support.

Keith

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:51:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: i'm beginning to hear voices..

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> can you post specifics on Harry Smith's anthology?

 

For info on this mind-boggling collection of American music, go to

 

http://www.si.edu/organiza/offices/folklife/folkways/harry/hatext.htm

 

This anthology is so rich that I've been listening to it since August and

have only gotten through the first four of six CD's.

 

Although I am a Beat fan of many years' standing, I am definitely not a

jazz fan...just an old folkie at heart...always have been, always will be.

No apologies, no regrets.

 

Regards,

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:08:10 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Hey Good Lookin

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Darling,

 

Just tried to call but your line is busy.  Hope I didn't knock you off

line, and certain you guys had fun.

 

I'll be concious til about 11:30 if you feel like a quick good night

with a voice (mine).  If I don't get you--have the beautiful dreams you

deserve (since the whole dream is you anyway.)

 

Big long squeeze (smelling your skin, and soaking up pheremones)

 

that lover of all humanity

 

James

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:14:34 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Hey Good Lookin

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Darling,

> 

>Just tried to call but your line is busy.  Hope I didn't knock you off

>line, and certain you guys had fun.

> 

>I'll be concious til about 11:30 if you feel like a quick good night

>with a voice (mine).  If I don't get you--have the beautiful dreams you

>deserve (since the whole dream is you anyway.)

> 

>Big long squeeze (smelling your skin, and soaking up pheremones)

> 

>that lover of all humanity

> 

>James

 

 

How nice james, but which one of us 200 or so is that "darling"?

 

Take it easy, the fun of e-mail.

 

Listen to hank sing it and smile.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:57:30 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: back to beat

 

Diane,

 

thank you.  how very beautiful and true those words are.  what a shame we have

to be reminded so often....

 

 

DC wrote:

 

Lamb, No Lion, 1958

 

"...Beat doesn't mean tired, or bushed, so much as it means 'beato,' the

Italian for beatific: to be in a state of beatitude, like St. Francis,

trying to to love all life, trying to be utterly sincere with everyone,

practicing endurance, kindness, cultivating joy of heart.  How can this

be done in our mad, modern world of multiplicities and millions?  By

practicing a little solitude, going off by yourself once in a while to

store up that most precious of golds; the vibrations of sincerity...

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 04:32:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Kirouack@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

 

thank you keith...but i'm already there.  we all are.  we just don't know it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 05:48:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                                                        mayorly,

 

                moraly,

 

                                        merrily,

        life

                                                                is

 

                                        but

 

                                a

 

 dream...

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 05:32:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      early saturday morning packing for the Interstate thoughts...

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some nice stuff today's digest

 

patricia

as always i love your memoirs

 

patricia

i often ask questions cuz i haven't read the materials -- (there is SO

SO MUCH TO READ!!!!) --

actually in my days as an instructor in various colleges, one of the

most difficult things was getting students to feel that it is OK to ask

questions, even dumb or ignorant questions.  a curious and inquiring

mind is an early need in the process of learning -- even at the college

level.  so many wouldn't ask questions.  a sadness.

 

oh well.  not necessarily related to the specific situation and i must

say that i kind of like the idea of asking a question or two that will

get your wrath a boiling now and then (especially when such beautiful

memoirs pop out later!!)

 

richard - i never said to leave.  i just thought you were a hilarious

parody of yourself.  and i thought the image of LEVI OVER-REACTING!!!

was hilarious as well.  i want to see the movie of that.

 

i wasn't going to head to wichita cuz my step-dad is in the hosptial but

i'm going to shift gears and leave him to the doctors and head down to

see Wichita and visit Pat O'Connor and the Wichita State Library (and

look for some books so i can ask questions about them)....

 

feisty this morning -- good for driving i think.

 

have a fun saturday and sunday -- look forward to the digests when i

return.

 

and now a commercial from our sponsor:

 

my threads better than your thread

my threads better than yours

my thread better

cuz

it eats

keraouciomania

my threads

better than yours!!!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

moving south on 135 through McPherson

(just the opposite direction of AG's Wichita Vortex route)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:50:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Kirouack@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat is as beat does.

 

what...theft is beat.  not in my book.  what a statement.  is killing beat

also.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:54:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Kirouack@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat is as beat does.

 

one more thought.  charity is beat.  charity...from my big dictionary..."An

act of feeling of benevolence, good will, or affection"

 

john j dorfner

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:23:48 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Jared Prickett

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The Hawks released Jared Prickett.  What do you bet we pick him up?  UK

comes to Beantown operation is underway.  ;-)

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:31:38 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      The Return of the Elves

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Dear Beal-L

 

The damn elves struck again with my send key.

 

I apologize for my mistake--but if a good laugh at my expense can help

erase the bad feelings of Estate War II--well, so be it.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:50:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Well, nothing like a little shared mistake James

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Hey James,

 

I must have read your post about the time I was sending my Celtic post

to the Beat list.  Imagine my surprise when I got the confirming

message.  But, what does everyone think about Pitino loading up the

Celtics with former Kentucky players?  (Never let em see you sweat!)

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:57:31 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: early saturday morning packing for the Interstate thoughts...

 

too funny!!!!!  have a great trip

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:35:09 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Another Poema

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and thank you, sean. it's a beautiful piece.

peace.

mc

 

Sean Young wrote:

 

>      thought I'd send another poem at the end of a long and spiteful week.

> 

>      peace be upon you all

> 

>      Sean D. Young

> 

>      ps (thanks Marie and Rinaldo for yr poems.)

> 

>      Question: What's the most important thing for a poet to remember?

>      Answer: "Not to hurt anyone"

>                         - Gregory Corso @ Naropa workshop 7/94

>      ------------------------------------------------------------------

>      Poem:

>      ------------------------------------------------------------------

> 

>      SUBLIMATION

> 

>      Teething in the wreckage

>      in relation to - stranger music

>      -- tough bars with you in them

>      loosening my scarf -

>         to a new meaning

>      for new skin

>         in the emperor's clothes

>      from the bunker

>         to the avenue's bosom

>      just then - words -

>         "This is true -

>      you are not afraid"

> 

>      it is this close

>         open palm

>                 on spinal shutters

>      to the walk home - it is

>         longer in solitude

>                 yet blissed

>      late summer

>         after storm

>                 the walk IS long

>      the air of the lake

>         sweet with brine and

>                 wet grass

>      the voice is changing

>         WE becomes I

>                 I becomes YOU

> 

>      it is this close

>         the air is lifting

>                 the orange clouds

>      the drums call from

>         boyhood

>      -when all there was

>         -was music

>                 in the dawn

>      and the twitch

>         of feeling

>                 "I am Loved"

>         (gone?)

> 

>      Until now

>         here - the feeling

>                 is deep opening

>                         subtle and awake

>      and the visage

>         before me and

>                 the Laundromat

>                         on L street and 6th

>      is grace -

>         a humble caress -

>      that man walking

>         down the street

>                 desolate -

>                         is loved -

>                 does he know it?

>      "Look up"

>         I could say

>                 but I offer a sigh -

>      We walk our own way

>         to the castle

>                 and besides

>      the real destination is within -

> 

>      between two people

>         it is a mutual diving

>                 for the glistening stone

>                         inside

>      a clear bell

>         to silence

>                 the cacophony

> 

>      - no other voices here -

> 

>      it is the blood

>         on the lips

>      it is the body

>         between the teeth

> 

>      it is the real work

>         of the opening palm

>      it is the kneeling

>         it is the embrace

>      it is the kiss

>         it is the healing

> 

>      Leave the wreckage

>         it is at rest

>                 with me

>      here, now

>         we dine at the splendid table

>      this is

>      the real story afterall

>                 off of the page

>      through the senses

>         from the teething

>                 to the walk home.

>      ------------------------------------

>      -------- Sean D. Young 7/17/96

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:00:30 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: memories

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patricia: thank you for this, and for all your posts that have shown a

side of wbs that few of us have been privileged to know. i love having

you here with us

mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Williams curiosity and friends.

> 

> one day on shooting hill

> surrounded by snow

> we unloaded snakes, by the pound,

> the box, the crate, wrapped across our shoulders.

> the gibbon viper, was a prehistoric monster

> i can vision him any time, i just close my eyes

> thick like a steel slug.

> devils horns, and power.

> he was too cold to move,

> dull and deadly.

> 

> then the glass case.

> five sides, brass trim.

> the green mamba.

> it was never cold

> as alert as any living thing

> i had ever seen.

> erect like a pistol hard

> curved slim green ribbon.

> it followed you smoothly

> as you crossed the room

> carrying the bags of cobras

> with their babies.

> 

> Dean said, if this one gets out

> he will wait up high,

> when you open the door

> he'll fly down,

> your dead in a minute.

> 

> i tacked a note on the cabin door,

> for the fbi

> attention, deadly snakes

> animal hazard.

> do not enter,

> contact

> patricia elliott.

> heavy kansas cold

> a living fence in case.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:02:23 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: memories

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patricia: memories, pomes, grieving: share as much as you can here. i feel

your presence behind the type screen of my computer. wish i lived closer.

mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> it is simply  a memory of an hour i spent one day.  Knowing william was

> good for strong memories.

> i am a handy person.

> a friend of williams came to town

> needed a place to stay and store his stuff.

> i helped him unload. some one asked if i went so in case of an accident

> i could go for help.  Dean said, oh no that is not necessary there isn't

> antivenom for most of these guys. dean had caught them on his trip and

> was delivering them to places in the states.

> 

> i enjoyed your poem on racing,

> i am on a diet of poems.

> having gagged on justice and what is right.

> i have gone to my boxes to sort

> and find thing after thing i want to post

> but am unsure about copyright infringement.

> a lot of my box is funny little books.

> 

> are memories of days with william beat

> or are they just self conscious greivings.

> 

> p

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:04:53 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: oh rinaldo

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rinaldo:

i have lost your address.

i am inconsolable

please send yr address to me

country@sover.net

i miss you,

gentle friend.

love

marie

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:15:50 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      totally nonbeat

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> first of all, mike: thanks for the wail!!!!!

 

second of all, i spent last night with a friend and her 12 year old

daughter, who wanted to rent yellow submarine.so with lime jello in

hand,

we put it on

lustily singing ALL the lyrics and getting lost once in a while in the

more subtle manifestations of altered states of consciousness.

anyone in need of a shot of humor and good spirits.

might consider this

or a similar antidote to beat-l hell

go to beatle heaven;

ha

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:37:47 -0400

Reply-To:     Greg Elwell <elwellg@voicenet.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

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It's not always the student's fault thoguh.  I remember doing a "research"

paper where I HAD to find other people's ideas, and then state my own idea,

but support it with other's ideas.  It's like the student's ideas aren't

solid enough to be backed up by the literature, you need "respectable"

people to support everything you do.  That's the educational system.

 

Greg Elwell

-----Original Message-----

From: Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, October 24, 1997 4:34 PM

Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

 

>hello Beatlist!

> 

>not to disrepect anyone, but i think these kinds of things are a bit mean.

every

> now and

>then somebody will ask a basic question to the list, mention it is for

school,

> and somebody

>else will invariably tap out a respose to the effect of "listen, you lazy

ass,

> do the work

>yourself!" now of course students shouldnt rely on others for information,

but i

> peronally

>do not think the responses should be hostile. in many cases i imagine

students

> might wanna

>use this list as an educative resource, in addition to the stuff in books

they

> want some

>"real live" perspectives.

> 

>whatever.

>Eric S.

>On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500 Bob Lewis

><kokupokit@JUNO.COM> wrote:

> 

>> running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?

>> i'll help.

>> junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and

>> started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because

>> he was so busy getting drunk and high.

>> all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to

>> class.

>> one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a

>> cockroach and started talking to him.

>> it ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,

>> and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.

>> great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.

>> hope i was a big help!

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:03:40 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: totally nonbeat

 

lol - marie, a great idea.  hope the blue meanies didn't get ya....  but then,

 "all you need is love"

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:04:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Nobody But Mr. Sampas

In-Reply-To:  <199710250449.VAA24783@denmark.it.earthlink.net>

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On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:

 

> Dear Alex Howard:  Oct 24, 1997

>         There is no failing of the copyright law.  Mr. Sampas DOES NOT HAVE

> THE LEGAL RIGHT TO KEEP YOU FROM READING KEROUAC LETTERS IN ANY FORM.  I

 

But what I said (my understanding of the issue) is at least the estate's

justification for what's going on?  I'd still like to know if the estate

has photocopies of the missing items (or maybe you do or someone does) so

that if the items are not recovered, they still exist in some form that

they could be replaced.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:29:20 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "V.J. Eaton" <vj@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: 60's Counterculture

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>For my class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper

>on an aspect of the sixties.  I want to do something on the Beat Generation,

>however, it has to be more than a literary paper.

>Does anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on

>60's Counterculture??

>Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

>Thanks...

> 

>jennifer

> 

 

 

For any who are interested (listed in no special order, some listed instead

of others for no special reason), try:

 

--The Politics of Ecstacy, Timothy Leary, 1990

--The Making of a Counterculture, Theodore, Roszak, 1969

--The Whole World Is Watching: A Young Man Looks at Youth's Dissent, Mark

Gerzon, 1969

--The Radical Vision: Essays for the Seventies, Hamalian and Karl, eds, 1970

--How a Satirical Editor Became a Yippie Conspirator in Ten Easy Years, Paul

Krassner, 1971

--The Alternative Society: Essays from the Other World, Kenneth Rexroth, 1970

--What's This Cat's Story, Seymour Krim, 1991

--The Sense of the 60's, Quinn and Dolan, eds, 1968

--Coming Apart: An Informal History of America in the 1960's, William

O'Neill, 1971

--If I Had a Hammer: The Death of the Old Left . . . , Maurice Isserman, 1987

--1968 in America: Music, Politics, Chaos, Counterculture . . . , Charles

Kaiser, 1988

--Freak Culture: Life Style and Politics, Daniel Foss, 1972

--The Haight Ashbury: A History, Charles Perry, 1984

--Uncovering the Sixties: The Life & Times of the Underground Press, Abe

Peck, 1985

--The Sixties: Years of Hope, Days of Rage, Todd Gitlin, 1987

--Witnessing: The Seventies, Sidney Bernard, 1977

 

Gitlin, Peck, and Perry were probably the most fun, tho probably not the

most relevant to your grade.  Amost anything by Kuntsler tho none listed

here will give some nugget. Bruce Cook has already been mentioned.  Many of

these include bibliogs enuf to give you a hobby for years, or drive you into

a dissertation.

 

Good hunting.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:35:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      late response

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I'm reading the BEAT-L in digest mode these days (one

big blast of sunshine every morning), so this response

is very late.  But just for the record, in response to

Richard Wallner's post -- I'm glad you're using a

reasonable tone of voice now, Richard, and I'm sorry

if I overreacted, and I hope you'll stick around this

list.

 

Now I have two questions:

 

1) Could we try to finish discussing "the dedication

controversy" by next Thursday maybe?

 

2) C'mon, Gerry and Phil and Paul and Bill and Marie

and Richard and Leon -- how about we all meet somewhere

like Lawrence Kansas (in the middle of the country) and

have a big group hug, come on everybody what do you say?

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|              *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                    |

|                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:56:39 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: 60's Counterculture

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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a most interesting an panoramic list.

i would add

storming heaven: the history of lsd in america (woderful anecdotes of beats as

well as cross over etc etc)

mc

 

V.J. Eaton wrote:

 

> >For my class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper

> >on an aspect of the sixties.  I want to do something on the Beat Generation,

> >however, it has to be more than a literary paper.

> >Does anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on

> >60's Counterculture??

> >Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

> >Thanks...

> >

> >jennifer

> >

> 

> For any who are interested (listed in no special order, some listed instead

> of others for no special reason), try:

> 

> --The Politics of Ecstacy, Timothy Leary, 1990

> --The Making of a Counterculture, Theodore, Roszak, 1969

> --The Whole World Is Watching: A Young Man Looks at Youth's Dissent, Mark

> Gerzon, 1969

> --The Radical Vision: Essays for the Seventies, Hamalian and Karl, eds, 1970

> --How a Satirical Editor Became a Yippie Conspirator in Ten Easy Years, Paul

> Krassner, 1971

> --The Alternative Society: Essays from the Other World, Kenneth Rexroth, 1970

> --What's This Cat's Story, Seymour Krim, 1991

> --The Sense of the 60's, Quinn and Dolan, eds, 1968

> --Coming Apart: An Informal History of America in the 1960's, William

> O'Neill, 1971

> --If I Had a Hammer: The Death of the Old Left . . . , Maurice Isserman, 1987

> --1968 in America: Music, Politics, Chaos, Counterculture . . . , Charles

> Kaiser, 1988

> --Freak Culture: Life Style and Politics, Daniel Foss, 1972

> --The Haight Ashbury: A History, Charles Perry, 1984

> --Uncovering the Sixties: The Life & Times of the Underground Press, Abe

> Peck, 1985

> --The Sixties: Years of Hope, Days of Rage, Todd Gitlin, 1987

> --Witnessing: The Seventies, Sidney Bernard, 1977

> 

> Gitlin, Peck, and Perry were probably the most fun, tho probably not the

> most relevant to your grade.  Amost anything by Kuntsler tho none listed

> here will give some nugget. Bruce Cook has already been mentioned.  Many of

> these include bibliogs enuf to give you a hobby for years, or drive you into

> a dissertation.

> 

> Good hunting.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:55:05 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: 60's Counterculture

 

wow, V.J.  cool list...  will check some ot these out myself.  thanks!

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:07:39 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: late response

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That would be fun. Us and everybody else who was tagged in the cotroversy or

who would just like to augment the circle with open arms hey we are all

needed there

 

Love and Peace, hip hip hurray, or whatever call speaks to your heart

 

leon

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, October 25, 1997 9:37 AM

Subject: late response

 

 

>I'm reading the BEAT-L in digest mode these days (one

>big blast of sunshine every morning), so this response

>is very late.  But just for the record, in response to

>Richard Wallner's post -- I'm glad you're using a

>reasonable tone of voice now, Richard, and I'm sorry

>if I overreacted, and I hope you'll stick around this

>list.

> 

>Now I have two questions:

> 

>1) Could we try to finish discussing "the dedication

>controversy" by next Thursday maybe?

> 

>2) C'mon, Gerry and Phil and Paul and Bill and Marie

>and Richard and Leon -- how about we all meet somewhere

>like Lawrence Kansas (in the middle of the country) and

>have a big group hug, come on everybody what do you say?

> 

>------------------------------------------------------

>| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

>|                                                    |

>|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

>|     (the beat literature web site)                 |

>|                                                    |

>|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

>|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

>|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

>|                                                    |

>|              *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

>|                                                    |

>|                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

>------------------------------------------------------

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:06:53 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: late response

MIME-Version: 1.0

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sure thing, levi, but only if the two beat midwest aangels are there to

work their magic, david RACE and patricial sunflowet elliott.

mc

peace, all.

i'm done ranting.

mc

 

Levi Asher wrote:

 

> I'm reading the BEAT-L in digest mode these days (one

> big blast of sunshine every morning), so this response

> is very late.  But just for the record, in response to

> Richard Wallner's post -- I'm glad you're using a

> reasonable tone of voice now, Richard, and I'm sorry

> if I overreacted, and I hope you'll stick around this

> list.

> 

> Now I have two questions:

> 

> 1) Could we try to finish discussing "the dedication

> controversy" by next Thursday maybe?

> 

> 2) C'mon, Gerry and Phil and Paul and Bill and Marie

> and Richard and Leon -- how about we all meet somewhere

> like Lawrence Kansas (in the middle of the country) and

> have a big group hug, come on everybody what do you say?

> 

> ------------------------------------------------------

> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

> |                                                    |

> |    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

> |     (the beat literature web site)                 |

> |                                                    |

> |        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

> |          (a real book, like on paper)              |

> |             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

> |                                                    |

> |              *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

> |                                                    |

> |                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

> ------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:16:10 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      relativity

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pumpkin smashin' time came earlier than usual this weekend. what i found

most notable, however, is that the human apparent destruction and loss

was far overruled (at least in my neighborhood) to a celbration banquet

for the squirrels. they are partying fools outside of my window as i

type.

so for howl oween i plan to buy the squrirrels several pumpkins, cut

them up and scatter safely in our garden.

what this has to do with any list related stuff i have no idea. i'm on a

5 day insomnia jag (as evidenced, i think, (ha!) in latest pome posted

on the list.

but i feel preternaturally cheerful today.

now, what DO bats want?

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:02:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat is as beat does.

In-Reply-To:  <971025065429_1335799129@mrin45.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>one more thought.  charity is beat.  charity...from my big dictionary..."An

>act of feeling of benevolence, good will, or affection"

> 

>john j dorfner

 

 

Faith, Hope, and Charity. And the most important of these is Charity.

(Not in those exact words...but you know.)

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:05:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

 

In a message dated 97-10-24 19:29:56 EDT, Paul Maher wrote:

 

<<  If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

 negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. >>

 

I have to say "amen" to this. What a putdown of Ginsberg for Nicosia to imply

that Kerouac wouldn't have wanted "Some of the Dharma" dedicated to him. Like

Ginsberg had nothing to do with jack's career, wasn't his friend for life,

didn't bear his coffin to the grave, didn't love jack, and didn't deserve it

when jack said, "I love Allen Ginsberg--Let that be recorded in Heaven's

unchangeable heart."

 

It's flat-out ghoulish of Nicosia to sully the memory, attempt to pollute a

beautiful friendship, just so he can say one more nasty and untrue thing.

 

I say, let Allen Ginsberg and Jan Kerouac rest in peace, for god's sake.

They've let go and moved on. Why don't you?

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:34:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Is the still a post limit?

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To:  <34517331.198@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I agree with this, only because it's hard to keep up.  If I miss a day,

I'm buried.  Thanks.

 

Don Lee

 

"Once I was young and had so much more orientation and could talk with

nervous intelligence about everything and with clarity and without as much

literary preambling as this; in other words this is the story of an

unself-confident man, at the same time of an egomaniac, naturally,

facetious won't do -- just to start at the beginning and let the

truth seep out..."

 

                                            --Jack Kerouac, Subterraneans

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:40:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Post limit

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I don't know and I guess this adds to the traffic, but there are over

250 members on the mail list.  Many are not that active, yet that is a

goodly number and if we are limited to 50 a day, I am not sure that is a

sufficient number.  I get many more posts from the Celtic list and the

track and field list.  I left the Dylan mail list and read it as a new

group now because it had more than 150 posts a day many times.  I like

the beat list as it is, without the personal attacks though.

 

I appreciate the recent comments by several that have been very

conciliatory.  I hope the personal affronts will cease.  But other than

that, it seems good to me.  Let's keep it headed on course.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:33:23 +0100

Reply-To:     jean-ory@altranet.fr

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jean Ory <jean-ory@ALTRANET.FR>

Organization: altranet

Subject:      Re: sixties counterculture

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There is a intersting book telling about what was happening backstage

during the sixties:

 

Acid dreams

The CIA, LSD and the sixties rebellion

by Martin A. Lee and Bruce Shlain

1985 Grove press

 

Cheers

 

Jean

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:21:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Update: John Tytell

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Small news update on Professor John Tytell. Coming soon...all the reviews of

the novels of Jack Kerouac in the New York Times. Go to:

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

 

              Thanks, Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:07:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The unpublished Kerouac

 

In a message dated 97-10-25 14:44:16 EDT, you write:

 

<< ohn Sampas has

 been in charge since 1992

 

Paul: for the record, to keep history correct for the new book someone must

be writing about the estate controversy -

he's been in charge since 1991....

JW

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:35:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      estate stuff and blah blah

 

Hello

 

I am glad for this public forum where everybody gets to hear what a person

says. And respond to it as well. This way people become acountable for their

statements. This doesn't mean that the truth is being stated. But it is a

process where maybe the truth will come out.

 

Gerry makes an assumption in his recent posting as to why Some of the Dharma

was dedicated to Allen Ginsberg,  Gerry says: "John Sampas dedicated the

SELECTED LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME OF THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg,

presumably because Ginsberg supported him in his fight against Jan Kerouac.

        Best, Gerry Nicosia"

 

And it isn't because Jack originally wrote it for Allen Ginsberg as a guide

to understanding buddhism. (you know what happens when you assume)

 

Gerry asks why do people rail against him when all he is is a practicing

christian? Is it because he can't write a post without some sort of

unsupported declaration against somebody? Is is because he makes accusations

and personal attacks against people rather then answering the issue at hand?

 

 

I do not feel like I have to always defend myself against false charges and

generalizations. As far as being lumped into a particular camp,  I have had

dinner with Gerry once, had a slice of pizza with Sampas once,  and have met

with Gerry and talked with him more times then I met with John Sampas.

 

?So am I a Gerry stooge or Sampas Stooge?

?Or is there a third stooge?

 

And I also don't support anybody attacking Gerry on a personal level.  I have

never called him names or used derogatory terms when posting messages

regarding the estate issue. I do wish that all parties would stick to the

issues so that the this topic could be properly discussed, argued, fermented,

contested, deliberated, pondered, considered, and reasoned.

 

And for anybody's information, I am no longer a baker, I am now a caberet

dancer and a goat herder. Oh yes, and wine taster (my favorite). And Gang of

Four is my favorite band.

 

I don't want Gerry to leave, I want to hear him say what he wants to say. And

Mr. Waller, please don't leave, and Bill Gargan, please stay on his list

server. And Dorothy, go home!

 

I just wish people wouldn't get so upset just because the discourse gets

rude. And it is within everyone's right to respond to rudeness and hopefully

steer the conversation  back to a better level of communication.

 

And for others who are tired of this thread, oh wait, you aren't reading this

anyway since you have already used the delete button...

 

your former donut boy,

Attila

 

PS - I don't know if anybody else is interested in how Jan came to the

realization that the will might be forged, but I know I am interested and

haven't seen it answered yet.

 

PSS -  Read more books

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:52:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: estate stuff and blah blah

 

In a message dated 97-10-25 16:36:57 EDT, you write:

 

<< And for anybody's information, I am no longer a baker, I am now a caberet

 dancer  >>

 

Hey, that five bucks I slipped in your g-string? I wanted you to give me

change for the bus!

 

Annoyedly yours

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:18:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: The unpublished Kerouac

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 04:07 PM 10/25/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-10-25 14:44:16 EDT, you write:

> 

><< ohn Sampas has

> been in charge since 1992

> 

>Paul: for the record, to keep history correct for the new book someone must

>be writing about the estate controversy -

>he's been in charge since 1991....

>JW

>Yes you are right. Thank-you...Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:12:38 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

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Diane De Rooy wrote: What a putdown of Ginsberg for Nicosia to imply

>that Kerouac wouldn't have wanted "Some of the Dharma" dedicated to him. Like

>Ginsberg had nothing to do with jack's career, wasn't his friend for life,

>didn't bear his coffin to the grave, didn't love jack, and didn't deserve it

>when jack said, "I love Allen Ginsberg--Let that be recorded in Heaven's

>unchangeable heart."

> 

>It's flat-out ghoulish of Nicosia to sully the memory, attempt to pollute a

>beautiful friendship, just so he can say one more nasty and untrue thing.

> 

>I say, let Allen Ginsberg and Jan Kerouac rest in peace, for god's sake.

>They've let go and moved on. Why don't you?

> 

Diane,  I'd say it's rather ghoulish of you to invite me to die along with

Allen and Jan.

        First off, kiddo, I didn't say anything "untrue."  Jack DID NOT

DEDICATE SOME OF THE DHARMA TO ALLEN.  John Sampas did.  And it aint' his

book to dedicate--sorry.

        I'm a writer too, and I don't want anybody adding dedications to my

unpublished manuscripts after I die--not even my wife or daughter.

        If Jack had wanted to dedicate the book to Allen, HE WOULD HAVE.  FINIS.

        It's just plain dumb of you to think that if Mr. Sampas hadn't added

a dedication to Ginsberg it would have been an insult to Allen (who was dead

by the time the book was published anyway!).  Was it an insult to Carolyn

Cassady that Sampas didn't add a dedication to her?  She's still alive.  Was

it an insult to Gary Snyder that he didn't get a dedication?  He's still

alive too.  He TAUGHT KEROUAC about Buddhism, whereas Ginsberg rejected it

till after Jack was dead.  We could go on like this all night.

        If you love Mr. Sampas and like the way he is handling the Kerouac

archive, then please say so straight out, instead of using this indirect

form of attack on me.

        And if you bothered reading my book, you'd know that Jack was angry

and fighting with Ginsberg the last five years of his life.  He called

Ginsberg "a hairy loss" and accused him of "inventing new reasons for

spitefulness" along with Jerry Ruben and Abbie Hoffman.  He felt Allen had

become a political clown and had sacrificed the tender lyricism of poems

like HOWL and KADDISH, which Jack truly loved.

        Why don't you be up front and just tell people you're pissed at me

for not turning my whole Jan Kerouac archive over to you?

        Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:20:58 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Letters and the law

 

As far as I know, if Jack Kerouac wrote a letter to someone, the piece

of paper belongs to the recipient.  The ideas, or the right to publish

the letter, remain with the author or his estate.  Right?

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:25:18 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: estate stuff and blah blah

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:35 PM 10/25/97 -0400, Attila Gyenis wrote: I have had

>dinner with Gerry once, had a slice of pizza with Sampas once,  and have met

>with Gerry and talked with him more times then I met with John Sampas....

>PS - I don't know if anybody else is interested in how Jan came to the

>realization that the will might be forged, but I know I am interested and

>haven't seen it answered yet.

> 

Attila,  you had a Greek dinner with me, Dean Contover, Brad Parker, and a

few other folks when I spoke in Lowell in 1993.  That's the only time we

have met, to my recollection.  YOu certainly never attended any of my other

speeches or presentations in Lowell.

        Excuse me, but I have a hard time believing you have had no contact

with Mr. Sampas except for a slice of pizza.  Last time around, you were

making really weird, wrong assertions about jan kerouac, and I wondered

where you were getting them.  Then I found the deposition the Sampas lawyers

had taken of Jan Kerouac, and there were THOSE EXACT SAME ERRORS BEING

MOUTHED by the Sampas lawyer Leticia Marques, and occasionally by Jan, whose

memory was starting to slip a bit.  You had to have had access to Jan's

deposition, which could only have been thru Sampas.  And that deposition

tells how she discovered the forgery, just as the SAMPAS's deposition of me

tells my side of the story.  If you haven't read my side yet, just go on

over to Sampas's house and read it.  I'm sure he'd be more than happy to

show it to you.  And don't forget to ask him for another Viking/Penguin ad

for DHARMA BEAT, while you're at it.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:24:28 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Paul Maher & the Future of Kerouac Scholarship

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:00:34 -0700 from

              <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

 

Gerry and I started working on Kerouac about the same time.  I want to

verify his remarks that Kerouac certainly wasn't given serious

consideration in academia in the early 1970s.  I did my master's essay

on Kerouac at Columbia but when I asked about the possibilty of doing a

doctoral dissertation on Kerouac at CUNY, I was advised against it.   I

generally credit Ann Charters' biography and Dardess's essay in*American

Literature*on friendship and OTR as turning points in Kerouac's

reputation.  From that point on, his stock began to rise in academic

circles.   Lots of others added to Kerouac's gradual acceptence

including Pete Jones, Gerry, Tim Hunt, Warren French, Regina Weinreich,

and last, but certainly not least, Arthur & Kit Knight.  There's still

lots of work to be done, which why all this bickering upsets me.  It can

only detract from general interest in Kerouac.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:34:17 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Letters and the law

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:20 PM 10/25/97 EDT, Bill Gargan wrote:

>As far as I know, if Jack Kerouac wrote a letter to someone, the piece

>of paper belongs to the recipient.  The ideas, or the right to publish

>the letter, remain with the author or his estate.  Right?

> 

> 

That's correct, Bill.  And xeroxes belong to the person who made them.  The

right to read material in a scholarly institution belongs to everyone,

UNLESS THE PERSON WHO PLACED THE DOCUMENTS THERE PUTS A RESTRICTION ON THEM.

The right to read and receive information is protected by the First

Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which Mr. Sampas seems never to have

heard of.  He cannot, for example, tell you you can't read ON THE ROAD

without his permission.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:38:09 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: in memory of Beat-L archive 95

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.95.971024232522.21843E-100000@devel.nacs.net>

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At 23.27 24/10/97 -0400, Michael Stutz wrote:

>On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> 

>> > GET BEAT-L LOG9505 BEAT-L

>> File "BEAT-L LOG9505" is not yet available.

>> 

>> i remain speechless --rinaldo rasa

> 

>speak, i have a backup of all the files on cd-rom...

> 

Michael,

thanks to take care of Beat-L archive, i've checked the

database retrieve command to obtain a backup of the 95archive

and found that's gone for ever (but Bill has perhaps some

planning to collecte the files off line), luckily some months

ago hacking i've on my hard disk a copy of 95 archive, but

i'm happy to hear that people has in mind to preserve the

history of beat on the internet...

saluti a tutti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:40:37 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: oh rinaldo

In-Reply-To:  <199710251530.LAA23287@pike.sover.net>

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At 11.04 25/10/97 +0000, marie wrote:

>rinaldo:

>i have lost your address.

>i am inconsolable

>please send yr address to me

>country@sover.net

>i miss you,

>gentle friend.

>love

>marie

> 

> 

marie, sister, poetess,

 

        ...Ah we were

                blind animals back then

                                        in those dumb days

                        My dear Carmen'' -- Lawrence Ferlinghetti

 

un abbraccio,

 

on the internet:

rinaldo@gpnet.it

rasa@gpnet.it

 

on the earth:

Rinaldo Rasa

via Morlaiter 2

30173 Venezia-Mestre

ITALIA

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:19:47 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: una poesia scritta in italiano da Lawrence Ferlinghetti.

In-Reply-To:  <199710201210.FAA22986@geocities.com>

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hola Daniel,

 

in his own book titled "These Are My Rivers" Lawrence Ferlighetti

gave on respect to the italian poet Giuseppe Ungaretti (1888-1970)

choosen as motto of the collected poemes written by LF

during 1955-1981:

 

                Ho ripassato

                le epoche della mia vita

 

                Questi sono

                i miei fiumi

 

                [I have revisited

                the ages

                of my life

 

                These are

                my rivers...]

 

                GIUSEPPE UNGARETTI

 

the rivers are those in north-est Venetian Lands of Italy where

during the WorldWarI the americans fighting to save

italy, one of all Ernest Hemigway in his novel

"across the river and into the trees" where the

river is "fiume Tagliamento", today the river is still there

such as at Hemingway time, there's the same green water, and the same

trees by the river, i always think of EH when i cross the bridge...

 

Saludos a todos,

Rinaldo

----------------

At 12.31 20/10/97 +0100, daniel wrote:

>----------

>> From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

>> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:una poesia scritta in italiano da Lawrence Ferlinghetti.

> 

>Ciao RINALDO,

> 

>I'm going to write in english 'cause my written italian is pretty bad,

> 

>well I'd like to know if there are more of Ferlinghetti's poetry written

>directly in italian? Could you post more? Is there a book?

> 

>thanks,

> 

>daniel caridade

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:29:18 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      John Lennon in the Porto Santo Stefano by Lawrence Ferlinghetti

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997102019511559@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        John Lennon in the Porto Santo Stefano by Lawrence Ferlinghetti

 

        A trattoria in the porto:

        an astonishingly beautiful couple enters

        in shorts

        He's got a fantastic torso

        long hair and a golden headband

        She's got long flaxen hair

        German hippies maybe

        Bourgeois back home

        Another couple saunters in and joins them

        Dark hair and jeans

        Comme ils sont beaux

        Not one of them is gay

        though he's the most beautiful

        He's got such a smile

        Some story he's telling

        What could it be

        Something about John Lennon

        lost in a mix of Tuscan and German

        Comme elle est belle

        with her empty eyes

        the Germans very spaced out

        the Italians very "with it"

        But none of them look very happy

        Perhaps it's just youth

        i am trying to think of a Lennon line

        to sum up the situation

        There isn't any

        He didn't live enough to give us

                                        the mad eternal answer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:52:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

 

In a message dated 97-10-25 17:15:29 EDT, Gerry Nicosia wrote:

 

<<   It's just plain dumb of you to think that if Mr. Sampas hadn't added

 a dedication to Ginsberg it would have been an insult to Allen (who was dead

 by the time the book was published anyway!).  >>

 

 

And in a message dated 97-10-23, I had written to Beat-L saying:

<< If you all will entertain a motion from the floor... <ahem> I'd like to

suggest you just ignore the squeaky wheels and go on with your thoughts on

Beat-L.

 

[snipping for brevity, so as to make my point:]

 

Takes two to tango. My advice? Sit this one out. >>

 

I apologize to Beat-L members for not taking my own advice. I have nothing

more to say on this list about this subject.

 

diane de rooy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:49:42 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Look who's starting this thing up again

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                                October 25, 1997

Mr. Gargan and other Beat-L folk:

        Last night I made an offering of peace to Paul Maher.  Not one of

the Sampas camp has even acknowledged it.

        Instead, I open my email today and there are two fresh blasts

against me, one from Attila Gyenis, and the other from Diane De Rooy, a

friend of Rod Anstee's, who happens to be one of Mr. Sampas's best

customers.  Mr. Anstee made his allegiance quite clear in the last round.

        Mr. Gyenis claims he "never called Nicosia names or used derogatory

terms..."  No, Mr. Gyenis's style is simply to post the most outrageous lies

about me as if they were naive fact.

        Mr. Gyenis writes: "Gerry asks why do people rail against him when

all he is is a practicing Christian?  Is it because he can't write a post

without some sort of unsupported declaration against somebody?"

        My religion has nothing at all to do with this fight.  Mr. Sampas,

being Greek Orthodox, presumably believes in the Christian God also.  How

many times have I mentioned being a Christian in the 200 posts I sent to the

Beat-List?  Once?

        Next lie: "Gerry asks why people rail against him?"  HARDLY!!!  I

know why Mr. Maher, Mr. Chaput, Mr. Hemenway, and Mr. Gyenis "rail" against

me (in their various fashions)--it is because they are all getting percs

from Mr. Sampas.

        There are no "unsupported declarations" against anyone in my October

15 post, which started the latest round.  If there are, please point them

out to me, Mr. Gyenis.  I'll even reprint that post for everyone to see at

the end of this post.

        I meant what I said to Mr. Maher last night, that we should all be

working together.  Obviously, the other side doesn't feel that way.

        PLEASE TAKE A CAREFUL LOOK AT WHO'S STARTING THIS THING UP AGAIN.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

 

THE POST THAT STARTED ALL THIS:

 

October 15, 1997

 

        I am sure readers of the Beat-List will be happy to know that I have

won yet another legal victory yesterday in my efforts to carry on Jan

Kerouac's legal battle to preserve and make accessible her father's entire

literary archive.

        John Sampas made yet another attempt to get Jan's suit dismissed in

Florida, and once again Mr. Sampas lost.  Judge Shames in the Sixth Circuit

Court of Pinellas County ruled against Mr. Sampas's petition to have the

case dismissed, stating that the court in Florida must await determination

by the Santa Fe (New Mexico) appellate court as to my powers as Jan's

literary executor before any such dismissal can be considered.

        The determination in New Mexico will take place within a few months.

I am confident of victory there as well.

        Recently Mr. Sampas placed a statement on the worldwide web that it

is his intention "to eventually make available all of the manuscripts and

archives of Jack Kerouac to scholars."  He made the exact same statement,

thru his lawyer George Tobia, in New York, at Jan Kerouac's press

conference, THREE AND ONE HALF YEARS AGO.  Once again, I ask why, if Mr.

Sampas is sincere in this declaration, he does nothing to act on it?  And

why has he forced Jan Kerouac, and now myself in my capacity as her literary

executor, to fight him inch by inch in court, to compel him to place these

manuscripts, papers, tapes, notebooks, etc.,  in a library?

        Why does he not cooperate with me in getting Jack Kerouac's papers

into a library now?  I have stated over and over again, over the past two

and one half years, my willingness to work with Mr. Sampas to see that the

Kerouac archive is permanently preserved in a scholarly institution and made

accessible to all scholars.  The placing of these papers on deposit in a

library does not need to await determination of whether Jan Kerouac and Paul

Blake should receive any financial gain from the Jack Kerouac's Estate.

That is a separate issue, and if money is paid by a library for these

papers, it could be held in escrow until a court decides whether Blake and

Jan's Estate should have a share of it.

        If, as Jan's executor, I finally win some control over Kerouac's

literary legacy, it is my intention to make it AVAILABLE TO ALL, not the

property of a small in-group who all adhere to a politically correct line.

I would like to see a Kerouac committee in Lowell, for instance, that does

not simply organize presentations that please Mr. Sampas.  I feel it was a

disgrace again, at Kerouac week this year, that not a single mention was

made of Jan Kerouac's death, no form of tribute, either in photos, readings

of her work, spoken memories of her, was given--DESPITE THE FACT THAT JAN'S

REMAINS WERE BURIED IN NEARBY NASHUA, NEW HAMPSHIRE, ONLY FOUR MONTHS

BEFORE, on June 5, 1997.

        I also read in the paper that Mr. Sampas has selected Douglas

Brinkley to be the only person in the world to have access to Kerouac's

papers and other archival materials, for the purpose of writing a "defintive

biography" that will presumably please Mr. Sampas.  I say this is not right,

that those papers and archival materials should be available to every

scholar who wants to write about Jack Kerouac--not just someone who has said

the right sort of flattering things to Mr. Sampas.

        These are the reasons for my continued legal fight, which is

difficult on my family, my career, and everything else in my life.  I am

aware that Mr. Sampas's friends will continue to say, as they have said on

the Beat-List in the past, that I am doing this for money, power, glory, and

greed, etc.

        I will keep you posted on further developments.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:02:57 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Paul Maher & the Future of Kerouac Scholarship

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At 05:24 PM 10/25/97 EDT, you wrote:

>Gerry and I started working on Kerouac about the same time.  I want to

>verify his remarks that Kerouac certainly wasn't given serious

>consideration in academia in the early 1970s.  I did my master's essay

>on Kerouac at Columbia but when I asked about the possibilty of doing a

>doctoral dissertation on Kerouac at CUNY, I was advised against it.   I

>generally credit Ann Charters' biography and Dardess's essay in*American

>Literature*on friendship and OTR as turning points in Kerouac's

>reputation.  From that point on, his stock began to rise in academic

>circles.   Lots of others added to Kerouac's gradual acceptence

>including Pete Jones, Gerry, Tim Hunt, Warren French, Regina Weinreich,

>and last, but certainly not least, Arthur & Kit Knight.  There's still

>lots of work to be done, which why all this bickering upsets me.  It can

>only detract from general interest in Kerouac.

> 

Dear Bill & Beat-L folk:

        I can only speak for myself.  I do not enjoy this fight.  The reason

I continue it is because Kerouac scholarship is being HUGELY HINDERED by the

censorship and lack of access Mr. Sampas has instituted as "business as

usual" in Kerouac studies.

        Anyone who wants to attempt any kind of real analysis of Kerouac's

texts or his development as a writer has to go to Mr. Sampas.  Mr. Sampas is

the gatekeeper.  And he has completely denied access to many people.  If you

want any kind of access, you have to say the right things to him.  You have

to say you will write nice things about his family and never, ever mention

the fact that Jack Kerouac was divorcing Stella Sampas or that he wrote Paul

Blake he wanted to be rid of the Sampases forever.  And if you happen to be

a friend of Gerry Nicosia's, or if you express admiration for MEMORY BABE,

forget it!  You'll never in a million years get access.

        And HERE'S THE REAL CATCH: so, okay, you've said the right things,

and Mr. Sampas has agreed to show you a few things in his "private stock."

But he WILL ONLY SHOW YOU WHAT HE WANTS TO SHOW YOU, AND HE WILL NOT SHOW

YOU THE THINGS HE FEELS YOU SHOULDN'T SEE.

        Can any self-respecting scholar tell me that this situation is

conducive to good scholarship?

        My point, Bill, is that folks like us--the pioneers--have done all

we can to move things forward.  Nothing much is going to move any further

until the Kerouac archive is made available for general study.

        I would have thought that was an obvious statement.  I certainly did

not expect to be targeted for massive character assassination--and now even

having my religion attacked!--because of it.

        Maybe it's time to ask the other side why THEY'RE fighting so hard.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:26:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Look who's starting this thing up again

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 03:49 PM 10/25/97 -0700, you wrote:

>                                October 25, 1997

>Mr. Gargan and other Beat-L folk:

>        Last night I made an offering of peace to Paul Maher.  Not one of

>the Sampas camp has even acknowledged it.

> 

dear Mr. Nicosia, I will make an acknowledgement. After you have slandered

my name and used my good intentions to perpetuate your constant aversion to

the truth, I cast aside your olive branch...its hoary stem is full of

thorns. My muse is greater than my conscience and I listen to it for it is

the ineffable one in my self and in my life. In all good faith, Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:48:11 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Kerouac t-shirts almost gone

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                Oct 25, 1997

        Well I've almost got my cupboard emptied of Kerouac t-shirts.  If a

few more of you order, we will have a nice bin of storage space again, and

my wife will be very happy.  She'd be even happier if I could toss out my

drawers full of legal files.  So would I, actually.

        So how about helping our storage problem?  A few more XL and L black

"Kerouac and Kerouac: The Legacy" t's available, with photo of Jack Kerouac

next to photo of daughter Jan. Lettering in red. On back in yellow,

facsimile signature: "Thanks to you all-- Jan Kerouac" -- $20 each

        Remember, t's are not being held unless you CONFIRMED that you were

ordering.

        Please email me directly: GNicosia@earthlink.net

        Thanks, everyone, for your support, kind comments, and so forth.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:05:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Look who's starting this thing up again

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>>Mr. Gargan and other Beat-L folk:

>>        Last night I made an offering of peace to Paul Maher.  Not one of

>>the Sampas camp has even acknowledged it.

>> 

>dear Mr. Nicosia, I will make an acknowledgement. After you have slandered

>my name and used my good intentions to perpetuate your constant aversion to

>the truth, I cast aside your olive branch...its hoary stem is full of

>thorns. My muse is greater than my conscience and I listen to it for it is

>the ineffable one in my self and in my life. In all good faith, Paul. . .

 

Say, tell me, is this the Beat-List or Alice's Wonderland?  Last nite there

was a post from Mr. Maher asking "Can we be friends?"  So I sent him a

SINCERE message of friendship.  (I still mean it, by the way.)  So this is

what I get back?

        Are these folks playing with a full deck?

        --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:05:03 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: What Happened??????

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>         Did I get lost in the late night suffle? Haven't recieved a posting

> for 3 days.Is it something I said or did? Or is it one of those nasty

> computer gods doing their tricks on us?

> 

my how i envy you! the computer gods were sparing you from squabbles,

count yourself in good fortune. if you really want to see what

happened check out the archive (it's not worth the trouble)

 

going thru 100+ messages,

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:33:57 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: bible code

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there was an article in the wall street journal a year or so ago. i

no longer have it; it appeared before i met the beats. does anyone

have a copy?

randy

> hey, anybody know much about _the bible code_, anybody read it or take a

> good look at it yet?

> 

> something on my todo list has been to perform cutups on bible text. nothing

> really technical or farout there, but i thought it'd be entertaining to see

> what you'd get. plus i wanted to gauge outside reaction, if any, from

> christers to such a thing if it got put online.

> 

> then i hear about the bible code book:

> 

> 

 <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0684810794/theultimateA/6650-9345000-

 9

>  63975>

> 

> some israelis with "powerful computers" analyse the old testament and

> discover a code - something extremely goofy like every 5 words forms a

> sentence i think i heard - but anyway the premise of the book is that the

> old testament predicts the future! far out sci-fi ideas, huh? the way i see

> it (and like i said i haven't really looked), these guys are basically

> fooling with bible cutups... now look, they went and done that fooling with

> structure of meaning in holy bible, scrambling re-interpreting thoughts,

> think it predicts the _future_, armegeddon etc.

> 

> was a premise of cut-ups that the text was alive?

> 

> 

> email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

> <http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

>                      as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

>                      WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:42:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

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Years ago Abbie Hoffman published Steal This Book.  I never

heard whether a lot of people did.  Now I'm hearing that

followers of the beat generation are notorious  book thieves in

some areas.  What does that say about the Beat ethic?  Do

any of you bookstore employees on this list know of other

books and genres that are eminently stealable?  I can't believe

that in the whole wide world of books, only Beat Generation

topics inspire theft.  The reason I'm interested in this

topic is those people taking those books are US!

 

Mike Rice

 

 

At 09:46 AM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-10-24 09:37:20 EDT, brian writes:

> 

><< 

> this may be true in new jersey, but my best friend works at a b dalton in

> omaha and they keep all copies of OTR locked up in the safe because every

> copy that went onto the shelves was stolen.  >>

> 

>In Seattle, at one of the three B&Ns I've frequented, they have nothing on

>the shelves for Kerouac, Burroughs, Bukowski, and a few others. They claim

>they can't keep them from being stolen. They won't even keep them behind the

>counter, which pisses me off.

> 

>At the other two stores, however, their shelves are lined with Kerouac titles

>and third-party books about jack.

> 

>I can't understand what the deal is with people stealing these titles, but it

>does seem to be an epidemic. Anyone know anyone who's stolen anything by

>jack, WSB or Bukowski? I'd like to ask them why they do it.

> 

>Hardly seems Beat to me.

> 

>diane

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:43:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 02:15 AM 10/12/97 -0400, you wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

> 

>> It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat canon

>> begin with "I":

> 

 

 

I find this interesting, also.  These three were self-obsessed,

an idea that had gone out of style during the depression.  The

dull mindset of the fifties was a social thing.  You had to stand

up for yourself to break it.  But hasn't the self-obsession gone

too far now?

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:16:45 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      let's be friends

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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it's what we all want, idn't it?

we love arguing

i dont like name  calling, although i did some of that now didn't i out

loud in public for all the world to see.

any way,

love is all we need

la de da

playful

but from the heart.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:23:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Hacking the Bible

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Someone brought up Hacking the Bible and the "code" discovery that

predicts the future.  I love these urban myths.  I am posting a portion

of the Hot Flash from Hot Wired that discusses some activity at their

site on that subject.  I think it includes a url.

 

Cross post below.

 

bject:

        HotFlash 4.46 - Hacking the Bible

   Date:

        24 Oct 1997 20:45:04 -0000

   From:

        HotFlash <hotflash-info@hotwired.com>

        HotFlash <hotflash-announce@hotwired.com>

 

 

 

 

HotFlash 4.46 for the week of 26 October 1997

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=

 

Hello and welcome to HotFlash, HotWired's weekly newsletter of events

and information.

 

Hacking the Bible

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

Synapse: Think the Web

 

On Wednesday, join host John McChesney for a hot, hot, Hotseat. Michael

Drosnin, author of "The Bible Code" says Israeli mathematicians using

powerful computers have found an ancient code encrypted in the Old

Testament that predicts the future. Australian mathematician Brendan

McKay says it's a sham. "Anyone can program a computer to make

coincidences appear to be meaningful," he says. Tune in as they face

off.

 

And Friday, research scientist and Synapse newbie Bruce Krulwich

analyzes ecommerce's key flaw: thinking what works in the US will also

work in Trinidad, Uzbekistan, or Namibia.

 

http://www.hotwired.com/synapse/hf/

 

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:27:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      This may be the one

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If this post doesn't bounce, I will shut up, but this is a really cool

article on quantum mechanics and parallel universes at the Hot Wired

site.  The url is

 

http://www.hotwired.com/synapse/hf/

 

Then click on the link.  It is cool.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:51:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Beat-L T-shirts

 

We still have a few Beat-L T-shirts left in stock..

sizes XL and XXL...

For those of you new to the Beat-L - these shirts have an original Beat-L

illustration by S. Clay Wilson, San Francisco comic artist.

The price per shirt is $18 (free shipping for Beat-L members)...

Thanks -

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

PS: To see the shirt's design, check out www.waterrowbooks.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:35:35 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac t-shirts almost gone

 

Nita,

 

The library is soooooooo QUIET tonight (saturday). Call us up and make noise.

 

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:51:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I don't know, but I bet Catcher in the Rye is also taken a good deal.  Also

something like Vonnegut.

 

Jon

 

At 09:42 PM 10/25/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Years ago Abbie Hoffman published Steal This Book.  I never

>heard whether a lot of people did.  Now I'm hearing that

>followers of the beat generation are notorious  book thieves in

>some areas.  What does that say about the Beat ethic?  Do

>any of you bookstore employees on this list know of other

>books and genres that are eminently stealable?  I can't believe

>that in the whole wide world of books, only Beat Generation

>topics inspire theft.  The reason I'm interested in this

>topic is those people taking those books are US!

> 

>Mike Rice

> 

> 

>At 09:46 AM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>In a message dated 97-10-24 09:37:20 EDT, brian writes:

>> 

>><< 

>> this may be true in new jersey, but my best friend works at a b dalton in

>> omaha and they keep all copies of OTR locked up in the safe because every

>> copy that went onto the shelves was stolen.  >>

>> 

>>In Seattle, at one of the three B&Ns I've frequented, they have nothing on

>>the shelves for Kerouac, Burroughs, Bukowski, and a few others. They claim

>>they can't keep them from being stolen. They won't even keep them behind the

>>counter, which pisses me off.

>> 

>>At the other two stores, however, their shelves are lined with Kerouac

titles

>>and third-party books about jack.

>> 

>>I can't understand what the deal is with people stealing these titles,

but it

>>does seem to be an epidemic. Anyone know anyone who's stolen anything by

>>jack, WSB or Bukowski? I'd like to ask them why they do it.

>> 

>>Hardly seems Beat to me.

>> 

>>diane

>> 

>> 

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:55:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      three little mice from rice

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I have been reading all my 9000 or so saved post and deleting some.

gosh

here are some quotes from mike rice in random order, a little cut up a

little bruised

 

 But get it for the

>performance on the Steve Allen Show and his drunken appearance on

>William Buckley's program.

> 

>Eric Macy

> 

>If anyone wants more info, just write and I'll post it

> 

> 

So who pays for them.  Just make a copy, if you are so

hot for it.

 

Mike Rice

 

Why would anyone buy a film at $69.95 or any price over $20, when you

can simply rent it and make your own copy at home, macrovision or no

macrovision.  I keep hearing letters that complain about the cost of

these cassettes but its nothing to make a copy so what does it matter

what it costs except to a video store owner?

 

Mike Rice

Years ago Abbie Hoffman published Steal This Book.  I never

heard whether a lot of people did.  Now I'm hearing that

followers of the beat generation are notorious  book thieves in

some areas.  What does that say about the Beat ethic?  Do

any of you bookstore employees on this list know of other

books and genres that are eminently stealable?  I can't believe

that in the whole wide world of books, only Beat Generation

topics inspire theft.  The reason I'm interested in this

topic is those people taking those books are US!

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:03:14 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      What do you think??

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I wrote this today after a L O N G heated discussion of America(not

Ginsberg's Work, but the country)  I am thinking of reading this at a

local poetry open mic night.  Tell me where the revisions need to be

made or just any comment would be appreciated.  Even "Keith, stick to

Web design..."  Please do not post this anywhere else.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

What a Country

Keith Medlin

10/25/97

 

What a Place this

       Red

            White    &

                 Blue.

My country 'tis of thee?

     Screw you!

Where are your pockets for children on welfare?

Where are your eyes violence sells?

Where are your hands?

             Tied

                    In               And

                       Checks                Balances?

No, they aren't there

They are covering Lady Liberty's mouth

        As she screams

Look, Look at the injustice?

Listen; Listen to your people cry.

They wail for you America

An awful cry of:

Poverty

Injustice

Inequality

     And

Death

How can bloody hands walk from a courtroom?

How can I choose when to die?

Who is to say what I can say?

Where is this land of opportunity?

It must be where the upper class are.

I hope it makes them feel comfortable.

I hope that when they spill their milk,

And throw away their bread, they chuckle

And say

"poor people in China..."

To hell with China, Look at your doorstep.

You can hear people thousands of miles away

But who the hell hears the cries of Americans?

It must be our great government, that living constitution

Ruling this land with swift efficiency...

Taking care of minority rights

Fighting Communism

Too bad we can't fight communists we seemed to like it so much

We could focus on others problems not ourselves

The Red Star Of Russia, gone, all but fizzled now

It casts rather an eerie glow on the problems this country faces

            Or better turns its back to

Oh say that star spangled banner; I think it was ripped in

   this land of the bound, and the home of the cowards

What a Country, What a Country...

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:37:04 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Keith Medline wrote:

> 

> I wrote this today after a L O N G heated discussion of America(not

> Ginsberg's Work, but the country)  I am thinking of reading this at a

> local poetry open mic night.  Tell me where the revisions need to be

> made or just any comment would be appreciated.  Even "Keith, stick to

> Web design..."  Please do not post this anywhere else.

 

I played with your poem,  please don't take offense,  i tried to let the

words that spoke to me loudest play out.  I read it aloud. I found it a

moving strong poem as you wrote it but felt you were trying to tell me

something rather than just saying it.  so i played with it.I think you

should try playing with it. but it is quite worthy of reading as it

stood.

patricia

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> What a Country

> Keith Medlin

> 10/25/97

> 

> 

>        Red

>             White    &

>                  Blue.

 

>      Screw you!

> Where are your pockets for children on welfare?

> 

> Where are your hands?

>              Tied

>                     In               And

>                        Checks                Balances?

> No, they aren't there

> They are covering Lady Liberty's mouth

>         As she screams

> 

> An awful cry of:

> Poverty

> 

>      And

> Death

> can bloody hands walk from a courtroom?

>     can I choose when to die?

> to say what I can say?

>    this land of opportunity?

> where the upper class are.

> I hope it makes them comfortable.

> they spill their milk,

> And throw their bread,

  And say

> "poor people in China..."

> To hell with China,

> You can hear people thousands of miles away

> But who the hell hears the cries of Americans?

> that living constitution

> land with swift efficiency...

> Taking care of minority rights

> 

> Too bad we can't fight communists

> We could focus on others problems

> The Red Star Of Russia, gone fizzled now

> casts rather an eerie glow on the problems this country faces

>             Or turns its back to

> Oh say that star spangled banner ripped in

> this land of the bound, and the home of the cowards

> What a Country, What a Country...

> 

> ------------------------------------------------------------

> Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

> http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

> ------------------------------------------------------------

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:57:15 +1100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Kerr <kerr@THEPLA.NET>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

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I would have said theft of the beats goes against the beat philosophy.

 

Theft of petrol , theft of food , theft of stuff like that is =

understandable because  they need that gear to get around and survive. =

The other thing is that=20

 

In a sense , the theft of OTR etc is theft of knowledge. Theft of =

knowledge cannot , in any way be seen as beat.

 

Charity is , of course , beat.

 

-----Original Message-----

From:   Adrien Begrand [SMTP:vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca]

Sent:   Saturday, 25 October 1997 5:37

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

 

Diane De Rooy wrote:

> 

> 

> In Seattle, at one of the three B&Ns I've frequented, they have =

nothing on

> the shelves for Kerouac, Burroughs, Bukowski, and a few others. They =

claim

> they can't keep them from being stolen. They won't even keep them =

behind the

> counter, which pisses me off.

> 

 

Same goes for Vancouver, it's gotten realy bad in recent years. Nearly

all bookstores, except Chapters (B & N knockoff), have Bukowski,

Kerouac, Burroughs, Hunter S. Thompson, and sometimes Ginsberg either

behind or next to the counter. I talked to an owner of one place and was

told Bukowski and Kerouac thefts are increasing all the time. That's

really strange...in all my obsessing with Kerouac, Buk, WSB, & HST I

never once even considered the remote possibility of swiping one of

their books. It's sort of fascinating, the fact that there's such a

trend everywhere.

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:32:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rod Macy <rodmacy@IQUEST.NET>

Subject:      Leavng the list

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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You know, I agree with Richard Wallner.  There is a clique mentality on

this list and if you're not a part of it, you're screwed.  Every time

I've posted here I've been dissed and cut down.  I'm not just another

ignorant college student bumbling my way through a paper.  Yeah, I gotta

write a paper on Kerouac and Burroughs, but I came here far before I

knew I'd ever write about those guys.  I fell in love with the

literature and the lives of those behind it.  It's tough to find Beat

references and literature outside of pedestrian criticism and

lightweight works on the Beats as a collective.  I thought this list

would be a repository of great ideas and I could offer some

interpretations of Beat works that would drum up some new angles I'd

never considered.  But after my first couple of posts I realized -

"flame on!" - I was dead here.  I stuck around, hoping it would get a

little better, then the estate battle broke out and I realized tensions

would never ease.  The camps were divided and God forbid you fell

anywhere between them.  Then I found one of my posts quoted with Mike

Rice's "funny" dis of my post included for good humiliatory pleasure.

That's the last straw for me.  I'm the butt of jokes and ridicule every

single day at my university - I'm ostracized and criticized at every

turn.  Everyone either hates me, is afriad of me or thinks I am an ass.

I don't need that popping up in my mailbox at home too.  See ya later

and thanx for everything.  Maybe I'll be back one day . . .

 

Eric "Moose" Macy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:03:57 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      side effects

In-Reply-To:  <199710251530.LAA23287@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        Gabriele D'Annunzio     -       Enrico Caruso

 

        Jacques Prevert         -       Yves Montand

 

        William Burroughs               -       U2

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:14:26 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Emmet Grogan.

In-Reply-To:  <199710251530.LAA23287@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"E. Church" (brcs@U.WASHINGTON.EDU) says:

   Who is Mr. E. Grogan?  Grogan was one of the founders of the

Diggers, a group that scrounged and provided food and services on

the Lower East Side in the sixties to the influx of hippies and

other kids who arrived in the city barefoot and entranced.  Abbie

Hoffman was another.  These tireless fellows were hearty souls who

busted their asses to keep the "counter culture" dreaming and eating;

the folks behind the curtains.  Now, with tie-dye revisionism, with

People Magazine's Jerry issue, with all the groovy graphics on MTV

and the Net, it's a nice zen reality check to remember the sixties

were not all peace love but contained some busted glass, bad dope,

mean cops, and hungry runaways.

   Grogan wrote a bunch of this up in his bio, "Ringolevio," and Abbie

wrote a bunch, too, like "Steal this Book" and many others.  A good dose

of railroad medicine and Texas gin, and a little less Brady Bunch might

help explain what really happened to the new generation.  Then again,

re-inventing the wheel has it merits.

 

Estacado66@aol.com writes:

>Right-winged anarchism goes too far (IMHO) when it suggest the

> privatization of all (such as for instance, oxygen supply in an O'Neill

> cylinder), and left anarchism is wong when it contests the property of

> personal goods (for instance, Emmet Grogan, leader of the

> anarcho-socialists Diggers, telling Allen Ginsberg he was an ugly

> capitalist, only because he wanted to retire in a house with a garden!).

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:02:43 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Shirer <shirer@CYBERRAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies available

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Please send a sample copy of The Kerouac Quarterly.

 

        Bill Shirer

        2316 Loving

        Dallas, Texas  75214

 

 Thank you!

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:43:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:57 PM 10/26/97 +1100, David Kerr wrote:

 

>I would have said theft of the beats goes against the

>beat philosophy.

 

Hmm, the "beats" never stole books, did they?! {;^>

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:07:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Mike Rice wrote:

 

> I find this interesting, also.  These three were self-obsessed,

> an idea that had gone out of style during the depression.  The

> dull mindset of the fifties was a social thing.  You had to stand

> up for yourself to break it.  But hasn't the self-obsession gone

> too far now?

 

Can you point out a couple ways in which you think this self-obsession

has gone to far?  Are you saying that literature has gotten too personal

and we're due for a swing back to the anti-personal?  The style of

Hemingway as opposed to Kerouac perhaps.  That we no long need the "I" of

Ginsberg?  Literature does in fact move "toward" and then "away from"

certain themes depending on the times.  However, I think what many might

call the self-absorption of the beats broke open a path for literature

that will never be reversed.  And that is essentially because the I

speaks for everyone's human-ness.  Are you saying that the "confessional"

quality of American literature has gone too far?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:19:29 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Paul Maher & the Future of Kerouac Scholarship

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> Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> Gerry and I started working on Kerouac about the same time.  I want to

> verify his remarks that Kerouac certainly wasn't given serious

> consideration in academia in the early 1970s.  I did my master's essay

> on Kerouac at Columbia but when I asked about the possibilty of doing a

> doctoral dissertation on Kerouac at CUNY, I was advised against it.   I

> generally credit Ann Charters' biography and Dardess's essay

> in*American

> Literature*on friendship and OTR as turning points in Kerouac's

> reputation.

 

Bill,

 

What was your master's thesis on Kerouac about?  I discovered Ginsberg

when I was in college in the 70s, but the same professor that introduced

me to him in a twentieth century poetry class would have seen any further

scholarly interest in the beats as a waste of time on a minor literary

movement and also as "unintellectual."

DC

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:32:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      some of the dharma

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We have here in many of the journal-entry-type entries, once again the

same spiritual search that reveals a tired and sad man, always seeking,

but never really finding what he is searching for.

 

pg 103

 

"YET TODAY AUG.24 '54 is the lowest point in my Buddhist Faith since I

began last December--Reason: *Loneliness of Westerner practicing

Eightfold Path alone, without occasional company of Buddhist monks and

laymen.  You've got to talk--even Buddha talked all day.  Here I am in

America sitting alone with legs crossed as the world rages to burn itself

up--What to do? Buddhism has killed all my feelings, I have no feelings,

no inclination to go anywhere, yet I stay here in this house a sitting

duck for the police who want me for penury & non-support, listless,

bored, world-weary at 32, no longer interested in love, tired,

unutterably sad as the Chinese autumn-man.  It's the silence of unspoken

dispair, the sound of drying, that gets me down..."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:40:36 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

When you start with "screw you" Iam thinking maybe you are telling the

hypocritical rhetoric to fuck off. O.K.  You are then pointing out

shortcomings here. But they are even worse most everywhere else on the

planet today. Then you end with telling me that this is the home of the

cowards. I think we have here as much courage and bravery as anywhere else

on the planet today. I get the feeling  of outrage that spilled out and

throws mudballs at targets that don't deserve it.

I don't want this land to be screwed and I believe we have in our land as

much bravery and courage as anywhere else on this planet.

 

If you replaced what a country with what a world, i could get behind it with

enthusiasm, but when you direct your anger at this country, I have to say

whoa, hold it, we are doing as well as almost anybody anywhere

leon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, October 25, 1997 11:04 PM

Subject: What do you think??

 

 

>I wrote this today after a L O N G heated discussion of America(not

>Ginsberg's Work, but the country)  I am thinking of reading this at a

>local poetry open mic night.  Tell me where the revisions need to be

>made or just any comment would be appreciated.  Even "Keith, stick to

>Web design..."  Please do not post this anywhere else.

>---------------------------------------------------------------------

>What a Country

>Keith Medlin

>10/25/97

> 

>What a Place this

>       Red

>            White    &

>                 Blue.

>My country 'tis of thee?

>     Screw you!

>Where are your pockets for children on welfare?

>Where are your eyes violence sells?

>Where are your hands?

>             Tied

>                    In               And

>                       Checks                Balances?

>No, they aren't there

>They are covering Lady Liberty's mouth

>        As she screams

>Look, Look at the injustice?

>Listen; Listen to your people cry.

>They wail for you America

>An awful cry of:

>Poverty

>Injustice

>Inequality

>     And

>Death

>How can bloody hands walk from a courtroom?

>How can I choose when to die?

>Who is to say what I can say?

>Where is this land of opportunity?

>It must be where the upper class are.

>I hope it makes them feel comfortable.

>I hope that when they spill their milk,

>And throw away their bread, they chuckle

>And say

>"poor people in China..."

>To hell with China, Look at your doorstep.

>You can hear people thousands of miles away

>But who the hell hears the cries of Americans?

>It must be our great government, that living constitution

>Ruling this land with swift efficiency...

>Taking care of minority rights

>Fighting Communism

>Too bad we can't fight communists we seemed to like it so much

>We could focus on others problems not ourselves

>The Red Star Of Russia, gone, all but fizzled now

>It casts rather an eerie glow on the problems this country faces

>            Or better turns its back to

>Oh say that star spangled banner; I think it was ripped in

>   this land of the bound, and the home of the cowards

>What a Country, What a Country...

> 

> 

>------------------------------------------------------------

>Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

>http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

>------------------------------------------------------------

> 

> 

>______________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:41:56 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      stealing home

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mike Rice wrote:

 

> Years ago Abbie Hoffman published Steal This Book.  I never

> heard whether a lot of people did.

> 

> _______

 

i stole it and i used it. used it to live on the streets as a teenager in the

wild lost years of the yippee sixties.only book i ever stole, as it was offered.

beat books

beat article

and all psychedelic research books have been plundered from boston to nyc.

ripped out of bound journals.

i bleed.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:57:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: three little mice from rice

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>Do any of you bookstore employees on this list know of other

>books and genres that are eminently stealable?  I can't believe

>that in the whole wide world of books, only Beat Generation

>topics inspire theft.  The reason I'm interested in this

>topic is those people taking those books are US!

 

     not a bookstore employee, but worked in a library for three years

and  can tell you that book theft has a trend; certain subjects and

authors inspire theft a lot more than others.  off the top of my head,

our martial arts section was reduced to one book, we didn't stock

Lawrence Durrell's books because they'd all gotten stolen back when we

did.  all we had for beat were a handful of Burroughs stuff.  no

Kerouac! a sin if i ever saw one.  No Ginsberg either.  for some reason

i remember a handful of D.H. Lawrence books dissapearing.  Stephen King

was a hot theft item.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:32:04 -0500

Reply-To:     Greg Elwell <elwellg@voicenet.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: three little mice from rice

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sunday, October 26, 1997 1:12 PM

Subject: Re: three little mice from rice

>all we had for beat were a handful of Burroughs stuff.  no

>Kerouac! a sin if i ever saw one.  No Ginsberg either.

 

That seems odd.  Most people find Burroughs to be more offensive than

Kerouac or Ginsberg(at least in my experience).  I know where I go to

school, they have Kerouac and Ginsberg, but NO Burroughs.  When I asked the

librarian, she didn't even know who he was!

    Also, my county library stocks only Kerouac, no Ginsberg or Burroughs.

But, they do have the movie "Naked Lunch" available.  Funny, eh?

ge

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:37:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: some of the dharma

In-Reply-To:  <3452E40D.4ABE@together.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

This, I found, was one of the more interesting passages for the Kerouac

historian.  The inablity of making Buddhism work within a Western urban

civilization.  There are little bits like this throughout the book and it

forshadows the end of Book One of Desolation Angels.  While he was sitting

up on Desolation Peak or in the middle of the woods in Rocky Mount,

Buddhism was great, but he just couldn't stick to it or reconcile it in

the urban environment.  At the end of Book One of Desolation Angels, he

basically says this Buddhism stuff and sitting on a mountain writing

poetry is great but I want a hot bath, a good meal, and a good fuck.  Then

he rushes down the mountain to get it.

 

On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Diane Carter wrote:

 

> "YET TODAY AUG.24 '54 is the lowest point in my Buddhist Faith since I

> began last December--Reason: *Loneliness of Westerner practicing

> Eightfold Path alone, without occasional company of Buddhist monks and

> laymen.  You've got to talk--even Buddha talked all day.  Here I am in

> America sitting alone with legs crossed as the world rages to burn itself

> up--What to do? Buddhism has killed all my feelings, I have no feelings,

> no inclination to go anywhere, yet I stay here in this house a sitting

> duck for the police who want me for penury & non-support, listless,

> bored, world-weary at 32, no longer interested in love, tired,

> unutterably sad as the Chinese autumn-man.  It's the silence of unspoken

> dispair, the sound of drying, that gets me down..."

> DC

> 

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:09:04 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "V.J. Eaton" <vj@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac's "Other Daughter" Revisited

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

--First, The Obligatory Hedge:

I was crashed-drive out of touch for awhile, and getting back on channel I

do admit to selective clicking (the surliness in the divided BEAT-L camps

can be avoided--just delete the flipping things).  So this might be asking

for old newspapers.

_____________

 

After the publication of Steve Turner's book, Angelheaded Hipster, we were

bantering about Turner writing that Mary Carney had Ks daughter.

 

Last I recall of the topic was that the Viking eds had asked Turner to tone

down the claim, and that someone (in England) was soon off either to

interview Turner or to attend a reading, or something, and wld get back to

the group.

 

How'd this thread end up?

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____________________

My opinions and those of my employer arer usually different,

for which my mother apologizes.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:33:56 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon,

 

Thanks for putting it so well.  By no means a perfect country, ours, but

show me many doing any better.  Still a patriotic old hippy in the

tradition of JK, AG, and Snyder. . .

 

J. Stauffer

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

 

> I don't want this land to be screwed and I believe we have in our land as

> much bravery and courage as anywhere else on this planet.

> 

> If you replaced what a country with what a world, i could get behind it with

> enthusiasm, but when you direct your anger at this country, I have to say

> whoa, hold it, we are doing as well as almost anybody anywhere

> leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:37:36 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: some of the dharma

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Reminds me of life after a couple of weeks camping way way back in Idaho

planting trees and the joy of the return to civilized comfort--first

good meal, good shower, good fuck.  Loved that about "Desolation"

 

J. Stauffer

 

Alex Howard wrote:

  At the end of Book One of Desolation Angels, he

> basically says this Buddhism stuff and sitting on a mountain writing

> poetry is great but I want a hot bath, a good meal, and a good fuck.  Then

> he rushes down the mountain to get it.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:45:27 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: John Lennon in the Porto Santo Stefano by Lawrence

              Ferlinghetti

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Rinaldo,

 

Thanks so much for posting this.  I must confess to being one who has

been somewhat underwhelmed by LF, this was wonderful

 

J. Stauffer

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> 

>         John Lennon in the Porto Santo Stefano by Lawrence Ferlinghetti

> 

>         A trattoria in the porto:

>         an astonishingly beautiful couple enters

>         in shorts

>         He's got a fantastic torso

>         long hair and a golden headband

>         She's got long flaxen hair

>         German hippies maybe

>         Bourgeois back home

>         Another couple saunters in and joins them

>         Dark hair and jeans

>         Comme ils sont beaux

>         Not one of them is gay

>         though he's the most beautiful

>         He's got such a smile

>         Some story he's telling

>         What could it be

>         Something about John Lennon

>         lost in a mix of Tuscan and German

>         Comme elle est belle

>         with her empty eyes

>         the Germans very spaced out

>         the Italians very "with it"

>         But none of them look very happy

>         Perhaps it's just youth

>         i am trying to think of a Lennon line

>         to sum up the situation

>         There isn't any

>         He didn't live enough to give us

>                                         the mad eternal answer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:17:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

stealing a book is theft of knowledge?

 

i personally have never stolen a beat book, but i did swipe a copy of

Catcher in the rye from my high school i.e. never returned it, and was

plotting to steal one of the many unused Cummings books, but never did. i

agree that it is completely uncool to steal from say a Library, because

the "knowledge" should be available to all, etc. i would never have had a

problem with the idea of stealing from a bookstore, until this issue was

raised on the list. literature is universally owned, it pisses me off

that we have to pay money to get books, of course rewarding the authors

is great but for middlemen publishers and storeowners to profit (pardon

me, anyone on this list offended by this) is less desirable. but when it

comes to the de-shelving of these books, then the problem is hurting

other consumers of knowledge, making it harder for someone to browse and

, importantly, to engage in the greatest of bookstore activities -- being

able to sit in one of them B and N chairs listen to the classical music

and read a whole book for free!

 

by the way, doesnt Corso mention something about the sinful urge to swipe

a Shelley manuscript in one poem. (obviously not condoning literate

theft, but a relevent theme)

 

from,

Eric

ecs4m@virginia.edu

On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:57:15 +1100 David Kerr <kerr@THEPLA.NET> wrote:

 

> I would have said theft of the beats goes against the beat philosophy.

> 

> Theft of petrol , theft of food , theft of stuff like that is understandable

 because  they need that gear to get around and survive. The other thing is that

> 

> In a sense , the theft of OTR etc is theft of knowledge. Theft of knowledge

 cannot , in any way be seen as beat.

> 

> Charity is , of course , beat.

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From:   Adrien Begrand [SMTP:vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca]

> Sent:   Saturday, 25 October 1997 5:37

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

> 

> Diane De Rooy wrote:

> >

> >

> > In Seattle, at one of the three B&Ns I've frequented, they have nothing on

> > the shelves for Kerouac, Burroughs, Bukowski, and a few others. They claim

> > they can't keep them from being stolen. They won't even keep them behind the

> > counter, which pisses me off.

> >

> 

> Same goes for Vancouver, it's gotten realy bad in recent years. Nearly

> all bookstores, except Chapters (B & N knockoff), have Bukowski,

> Kerouac, Burroughs, Hunter S. Thompson, and sometimes Ginsberg either

> behind or next to the counter. I talked to an owner of one place and was

> told Bukowski and Kerouac thefts are increasing all the time. That's

> really strange...in all my obsessing with Kerouac, Buk, WSB, & HST I

> never once even considered the remote possibility of swiping one of

> their books. It's sort of fascinating, the fact that there's such a

> trend everywhere.

> 

> Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:24:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The I in Howl, cont'd:  Identity & conformity

Comments: cc: DAVIDSROSEN@compuserve.com

 

Mike:

 

You wrote:  "I find this interesting, also.  These three were self-obsessed,

an idea that had gone out of style during the depression.  The dull mindset

of the fifties was a social thing.  You had to stand up for yourself to break

it.  But hasn't the self-obsession gone too far now?"

 

Indeed, the Beats re-affirmed individual identity at a time when it was

beleaguered by the pressures of a super-conformist society.  Americans

hunkered down and marched off to war, subordinating individuality to the

urgent task at hand.  Then, the situation was perfect to steer the returning

soldiers into a regimented, corporate culture, to produce and consume the

boom that had been jump-started by the war economy.  But parallel with the

economic outburst after a pent-up period of deprivation caused by the

depression & WW2, was a cultural, emotional & mental suppression.  The Beats

found themselves in this situation and had the wherewithal & talent to get

the ball rolling on the subversion of the conformists' paradise.

 

Now, 50 years after they started this process, it may be too far in the

opposite direction, with the celebration of individuality curdling into

self-centeredness & -indulgence.  A conservative backlash has been building

up, to re-instate "traditional family values" (conformity) and contain the

countercultural explosion that has become the mainstream culture.  Back &

forth we go.  This cycle of phenomenons & reactions to them is good to an

extent, the extremes of either direction bounce back & forth from each other

toward the balanced middle, ideally.  There is never a total turning back, no

getting the cat completely back in the bag.  I myself believe that a

functioning society can flourish without everyone ultimately losing their

identities.  In my own life I am combining the fulfillment of parental & work

responsibilities with the pursuit of BeatFreakism & other causes-interests, &

cross-polinating these endeavors without coming to cross-purposes.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:37:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: memories

 

Patricia:

 

You wrote:  "are memories of days with william beat or are they just self

conscious grievings."

 

Your reminiscences are as Beatific as it gets, extractions of poetry from

experience.  There's also nothing wrong with working out grief, your posts

have greatly helped me come to terms with & assimilate mine.  Keep sending as

many as you're inspired to create, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:38:46 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac In Translation

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

My research has found that Kerouac has been translated into the languages

listed below.  If you know of any others, please let me know.

 

Bulgarian

Catalan

Czech

Danish

Dutch

Finnish

French

French Canadian

German

Greek

Hungarian

Italian

Japanese

Norwegian

Polish

Portuguese

Russian

Serbian

Serbo-Croatian

Spanish

Swedish

Ukranian

 

I have found NO evidence that he was ever translated into Hindi as Charters

suggests.

 

Irving Leif

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:40:54 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

i once took some potboilers from a condo i spent the week so i could

trade them in at my used bookstore for some literature, which i now

recognize as being bad.

randy

 

> stealing a book is theft of knowledge?

> 

> i personally have never stolen a beat book, but i did swipe a copy of

> Catcher in the rye from my high school i.e. never returned it, and was

> plotting to steal one of the many unused Cummings books, but never did. i

> agree that it is completely uncool to steal from say a Library, because

> the "knowledge" should be available to all, etc. i would never have had a

> problem with the idea of stealing from a bookstore, until this issue was

> raised on the list. literature is universally owned, it pisses me off

> that we have to pay money to get books, of course rewarding the authors

> is great but for middlemen publishers and storeowners to profit (pardon

> me, anyone on this list offended by this) is less desirable. but when it

> comes to the de-shelving of these books, then the problem is hurting

> other consumers of knowledge, making it harder for someone to browse and

> , importantly, to engage in the greatest of bookstore activities -- being

> able to sit in one of them B and N chairs listen to the classical music

> and read a whole book for free!

> 

> by the way, doesnt Corso mention something about the sinful urge to swipe

> a Shelley manuscript in one poem. (obviously not condoning literate

> theft, but a relevent theme)

> 

> from,

> Eric

> ecs4m@virginia.edu

> On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:57:15 +1100 David Kerr <kerr@THEPLA.NET> wrote:

> 

> > I would have said theft of the beats goes against the beat philosophy.

> >

> > Theft of petrol , theft of food , theft of stuff like that is understandable

>  because  they need that gear to get around and survive. The other thing is

 that

> >

> > In a sense , the theft of OTR etc is theft of knowledge. Theft of knowledge

>  cannot , in any way be seen as beat.

> >

> > Charity is , of course , beat.

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From:   Adrien Begrand [SMTP:vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca]

> > Sent:   Saturday, 25 October 1997 5:37

> > To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> > Subject:        Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

> >

> > Diane De Rooy wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > In Seattle, at one of the three B&Ns I've frequented, they have nothing on

> > > the shelves for Kerouac, Burroughs, Bukowski, and a few others. They claim

> > > they can't keep them from being stolen. They won't even keep them behind

 the

> > > counter, which pisses me off.

> > >

> >

> > Same goes for Vancouver, it's gotten realy bad in recent years. Nearly

> > all bookstores, except Chapters (B & N knockoff), have Bukowski,

> > Kerouac, Burroughs, Hunter S. Thompson, and sometimes Ginsberg either

> > behind or next to the counter. I talked to an owner of one place and was

> > told Bukowski and Kerouac thefts are increasing all the time. That's

> > really strange...in all my obsessing with Kerouac, Buk, WSB, & HST I

> > never once even considered the remote possibility of swiping one of

> > their books. It's sort of fascinating, the fact that there's such a

> > trend everywhere.

> >

> > Adrien

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:29:53 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Your points are very well taken,

 

     However, this country is FORCING its version of "right/wrong" on

other countries.  That is called, being an asshole.  If I was to tell

you that right handed people are the only people and left handers should

switch to being right handed you would say go to hell.

     This is why the USA is having so many problems in teh Middle East

and Far East.  These are civilizations that have existed for thousands

of years.  The United States is not even 300 years old, yet we try to

push our values on them.  That is like a 7 year old telling a 40 year

old what to do!  It is flat out stupid that we should assume our way is

best.

     We are cowards because we cannot accept defeat.  People still bitch

and moan over the Vietnam war.  We lost it.  Why?  Our GREAT government

in all its brilliance decided that communism was wrong. Well whoop di

fuckin doo.  That does not affect us whether it is morally right or

wrong.

     Socialism provides for its destitute, unlike us.  Look at the

Rhine-model of economics.  Germany for example looks at its destitute

not as culprits like in America, but rather as victims.

     Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher ruined the economy and social

status in America.  Instead of redistributing the wealth and setting up

social service programs (not nessisarily welfare) they gave Rich people

more money.  Exactly what rich people need.  More money to distance

themselves from society and reality.

     America the land of opportunity.  That is it opportunity.  Not

outcomes.  A poor person is still a poor person here,  in Germany that

person will NEVER be destitute.

     Our living constitution with its checks and balances ruins the

speed and efficency of the government!  To make Frank Sinatra a hero it

took congress like 2 weeks.  What the hell.  I LOVE BLUE EYES, but he

doesn't need a medal to show for what he has done.

     In this great land of ours we have so many children dying, crying

and never seeing 100 dollars in the same place.  This is while the US

sends millions of dollars in releif to Africa and Asia.  Why don't we

take care of oursleves.  A boxer would never gon into a fight without

being fully healed.

     Maybe if this country wasn't founded with the BIGGEST LIE EVER

TOLD: "We The People..."  That was a flat out lie.  IT DID NOT INCLUDE

1) Women

2) Immigrants

    -or-

3) Blacks

Yeah real government of the people by the people and for the people.

     Don't get me wrong I love the USA and wouldn't want to live

elsewhere, but the United States is a hypocrit.

     We have this jingoism of a dangerous kind.  I hope this makes you

mad.  I hope it makes you think.  I hope it really offends a lot of

people.  You know why?  It will make them THINK.

keith

 

 

>Leon,

> 

>Thanks for putting it so well.  By no means a perfect country, ours,

but

>show me many doing any better.  Still a patriotic old hippy in the

>tradition of JK, AG, and Snyder. . .

> 

>J. Stauffer

> 

>Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

>> I don't want this land to be screwed and I believe we have in our

land as

>> much bravery and courage as anywhere else on this planet.

>> 

>> If you replaced what a country with what a world, i could get behind

it with

 

 

 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:14:58 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Keith Medline wrote:

 

>      We have this jingoism of a dangerous kind.  I hope this makes you

> mad.  I hope it makes you think.  I hope it really offends a lot of

> people.  You know why?  It will make them THINK.

> keith

 

The point you are making is actually not that far different from the

point Ginsberg made in his own poem, America.  I would just urge you to

think not only about what you see as wrong with America, but also about

the idea of personal responsibility, as Ginsberg writes,

"It occurs to me that I am America.

I am talking to myself again."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:43:29 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

Content-Type: text/plain

 

A very interesting and provacative point.

Am I America?  My parents are Italian Americans.  Their ancestors were

HEAVILY persecuted by this government ie the Kefauver hearings.  That

was a great injustice and disservice to my family.   Does America speak

for me?  I hope not.  While I may be refered to As "THE PEOPLE" I don't

listen to some asshole with millions of dollars and conservative ideals.

Why has the government made so many infringements upon the bedrooms of

Americans?  I hope I am not an American.  I live here, I love here, I do

not agree with here.  This government can NEVER represent me unless I

become very rich.  Maybe the "real" Americans are rich.  Maybe that is

who the people are.

Keith

 

>The point you are making is actually not that far different from the

>point Ginsberg made in his own poem, America.  I would just urge you to

>think not only about what you see as wrong with America, but also about

>the idea of personal responsibility, as Ginsberg writes,

>"It occurs to me that I am America.

>I am talking to myself again."

>DC

> 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:12:59 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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     right on, brother.  i agree.  but i think there is more than one

america.  america is not a political system; america is the america in

OTR, the america of the writers jack idolized.  america is a one-lane

cross country highway, america is a beat up old gas guzzlin car on the

backroads of obsolete nowheres, the foothills of the appalachians,

sierras, a mountain in california, the mississippi, park avenue.  don't

allow the eyesore of Amerika to overshadow the raw beauty of America.

 

 

>A very interesting and provacative point.

>Am I America?  My parents are Italian Americans.  Their ancestors were

>HEAVILY persecuted by this government ie the Kefauver hearings.  That

>was a great injustice and disservice to my family.   Does America speak

>for me?  I hope not.  While I may be refered to As "THE PEOPLE" I don't

>listen to some asshole with millions of dollars and conservative ideals.

>Why has the government made so many infringements upon the bedrooms of

>Americans?  I hope I am not an American.  I live here, I love here, I do

>not agree with here.  This government can NEVER represent me unless I

>become very rich.  Maybe the "real" Americans are rich.  Maybe that is

>who the people are.

>Keith

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:14:22 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: John Lennon in the Porto Santo Stefano by Lawrence

              Ferlinghetti

 

Rinaldo - thank you for putting these gems of poetry on the list.  whenever i

see that you've posted, i know i can expect to find a treasure of beauty that

takes me out of the mundane and into the great spheres where men's and women's

souls commune with the cosmos.

 

ciao mi amico,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:09:26 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul Maher & the Future of Kerouac Scholarship

 

Bill Gargan wrote:

There's still lots of work to be done, which why all this bickering upsets me.

 It can only detract from general interest in Kerouac.

 

i agree Bill.  i think this bitterness not only detracts from JK, but

seriously deters good scholarship from being possible.  so long as the

archives are not fully available (due to this discord and whatever other

reasons there may be), and possibly not being adequately cared for in some

places, there can be no hope of putting ALL of the pieces together for the

best possible understanding.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:26:44 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: John Lennon in the Porto Santo Stefano by Lawrence

MIME-Version: 1.0

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three cheers for rinaldo!!... and sherri, your not to bad with words

yourself.

randy

> Rinaldo - thank you for putting these gems of poetry on the list.  whenever i

> see that you've posted, i know i can expect to find a treasure of beauty that

> takes me out of the mundane and into the great spheres where men's and women's

> souls commune with the cosmos.

> 

> ciao mi amico,

> sherri

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:18:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      America is

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America is a pine tree in South Carolina.

 

On the other hand, some folks would like to forget South Carolina.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:47:14 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Recommended reading

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

new book by quite small press.  sort of a "folklore of a place" about

Tavern named Silver Dollar and A Blackout in Wichita Kansas

 

Title: "Tales from A Blackout"

Author:  Patrick Joseph O'Connor

Copyright 1997  First Edition

Publisher: Rowfant Press, Wichita 67204-4710

 

I'm only beginning chapter four.

 

What to say....

there is a folklore of the road for a period beginning with perhaps the

Grapes of Wrath and moving through Guthrie and Kerouac and company and

the Grateful Dead and yadayada yada.

But to those who did not suffer from what WSB referred to as "stasis

horrors", the density and depth of a place in a town, in a state shows

as much (or more perhaps) that may have been lost in the perpetual

motion of the motion motif.  Patrick's wonderful little account truly

lets the Walls of a Tavern tell the stories of the place itself.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

"hey its good to be back home again"

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:28:14 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      replace country with world?

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Leon suggests (as I undersand it)

in recent poem of the screw you motif that he is not willing to screw

you to America (a nice nationalism) but if we do the following

calculation FOR ALL country REPLACE world THEN yes screw you ...

 

Goodness.

 

Think Universally Act Intrapersonally

-- the bumper sticker from Firewalk Thru Madness --

 

of course there are many meanings of screw and you so ... maybe i'll

twist and shout with the rest of the world too.... !!!

 

the vortex in wichita is now firmly placed in my satchel bag by the way!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:46:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Tom Waits-On the Road

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Phil,

 

        Thanks for the post about Tom Waits and the Kerouac recording. There

had been the odd bits of news on the Raindogs list (Tom Waits) when the

recording with Primus took place, but none of the details about the Kerouac

material that you supplied. Ronan is great [I've just last week received his

bibliography/discography of Beat recordings and haven't even had time to

crack it. Dharma Beat is Attila's publication, right?

 

        Attila, how do I get a copy of this?

 

        This is really exciting news. I take it that the recording comes

from John Sampas...or is it someone else? I've forwarded your post to the

Raindogs list Phil hoping that will trigger a useful response. I told them

about Dharma Beat also, Attila...get ready!?!

 

        Antoine

 

        ****************

 

from Phil Chaput:

 

>Stephen Ronan (beat archivist/writer extraordinaire) mentions in this

>months issue of Dharma Beat Magazine about the release by Geffen Records of

>a previously unheard recording of Jack Kerouac reading from "On the Road".

>He goes on to state "There is every reason to suspect that this is the

>greatest sustained recording by Kerouac and the release will be another

>milestone in the publication of his work."

>This guy really knows his stuff as his "Discography of the Beat Generation

>- Disks of the Gone World" will attest. I hope he keeps us informed. I also

>found this on Tom Waits page-

> 

>Geffen Records will release a Jack Kerouac album in early 1998. This album

>will feature rare recordings by Jack Kerouac, but it will also include the

>song "On The Road". The music to this was written by Tom Waits and will

>feature Jack Kerouac with Tom Waits and the members of Primus performing

>the music behind it. This track was recorded earlier this year at Prairie

>Sun Studios in Northern California.

> 

>This is exciting stuff. If anyone has anymore info on this keep us

>informed. Phil

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:54:07 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Why there is no Jack Kerouac Archive to Study

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 03:09 AM 10/27/97 UT, you wrote:

>Bill Gargan wrote:

>There's still lots of work to be done, which why all this bickering upsets me.

> It can only detract from general interest in Kerouac.

 

Sherri wrote:

>i agree Bill.  i think this bitterness not only detracts from JK, but

>seriously deters good scholarship from being possible.  so long as the

>archives are not fully available (due to this discord and whatever other

>reasons there may be), and possibly not being adequately cared for in some

>places, there can be no hope of putting ALL of the pieces together for the

>best possible understanding.

 

Dear Sherri:                    Oct 26, 1997

        To set the record straight, the "discord" began when Jan Kerouac

filed suit against the Sampas family in May, 1994.  At that point, John

Sampas had been in control of the Kerouac Estate for 3 years.  He had made

no move to put the Kerouac Archive in a library during that period.  To the

contrary, he had sold a good many pieces off to collectors and dealers, and

he had sabotaged his own dealer Jeffrey Weinberg's attempt to sell the

entire archive to the Bancroft Library in Berkeley.  Sampas had also

rebuffed and insulted Tom Staley of the Humanities Research Center at U of

Texas, Austin, who was also interested in purchasing the collection.

Weinberg and Bonnie Bearden of the Bancroft Library as well as Tom Staley

are available to verify what I say (not "unsubstantiated" as Mr. Gyenis will

claim).

        So please do not hold the "discord" responsible for the Kerouac

Archive not being available in a library right now.  I know that is what Mr.

Maher and Mr. Sampas's other supporters have claimed.

        They ignore the fact that I have offered again and again to work

with Mr. Sampas on getting the Kerouac Archive into a library RIGHT NOW.

The lawsuit, if it goes forward, will determine who gets what share of the

revenue from the Kerouac Estate, and whether Jan's heirs and Jack's nephew

Paul Blake Jr deserve to get anything.  But a library sale could be made

tomorrow, and the money could be put in escrow until the court decides

whether it all belongs to Mr. Sampas or whether he must share it with Mr.

Blake and Ms. Kerouac's heirs.  It is that simple, and that easy, if Mr.

Sampas wanted to do it.

        Bancroft, Stanford, and New York Public would all pay one million

dollars for the archive tomorrow, and I know that because I have talked to

the respective collections directors of each library.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:21:41 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      i'm stupid ... help

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i'm ready to switch back from digest to regular mail.

 

what is the message?

set anti-digest?

 

someone please backchannel me ASAP!!!!

 

thanks.

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:07:21 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: replace country with world?

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David

 

I can be pissed at  lack of compassion and at mistreatment of people

anywhere in the world. Screw you suggests to me not a call for a specific

action but an outraged outcry at uncalled for meanness. I don't think it is

fair to single out the United States as being a bad apple among nations,

when in my opinion it is qactually better than most.

 

In its litteral meaning screwing might be more of a gift from heaven than an

insult.

 

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sunday, October 26, 1997 9:29 PM

Subject: replace country with world?

 

 

>Leon suggests (as I undersand it)

>in recent poem of the screw you motif that he is not willing to screw

>you to America (a nice nationalism) but if we do the following

>calculation FOR ALL country REPLACE world THEN yes screw you ...

> 

>Goodness.

> 

>Think Universally Act Intrapersonally

>-- the bumper sticker from Firewalk Thru Madness --

> 

>of course there are many meanings of screw and you so ... maybe i'll

>twist and shout with the rest of the world too.... !!!

> 

>the vortex in wichita is now firmly placed in my satchel bag by the way!

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:52:45 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Why there is no Jack Kerouac Archive to Study

 

>Sherri wrote:

 

so long as the archives are not fully available (due to this discord and

whatever other reasons there may be),

 

Gerry,  i'm not blaming this mess on any one thing.  nor am i saying that Jan

started it.  that would be terribly simplistic and naive (not to mention the

fact that i have so little information on the entire issue in the first

place).  i do think that the personal discord may cause the problem to be

continued at greater length.  i do not have enough knowledge of the history of

what has been going on to even have a clue as to all the contributing factors.

 i just know that personal strife will always extenuate matters.

 

so what i hope is (i know i sound pollyanna-ish) that everyone will turn

his/her attention to the matter at hand - which is the proper care of the

archive and the dissemination of the information contained in it so that we

can all better understand JK and his work.

 

sincerely,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Gerald Nicosia

Sent:   Sunday, October 26, 1997 9:54 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Why there is no Jack Kerouac Archive to Study

 

At 03:09 AM 10/27/97 UT, you wrote:

>Bill Gargan wrote:

>There's still lots of work to be done, which why all this bickering upsets

me.

> It can only detract from general interest in Kerouac.

 

Sherri wrote:

>i agree Bill.  i think this bitterness not only detracts from JK, but

>seriously deters good scholarship from being possible.  so long as the

>archives are not fully available (due to this discord and whatever other

>reasons there may be), and possibly not being adequately cared for in some

>places, there can be no hope of putting ALL of the pieces together for the

>best possible understanding.

 

Dear Sherri:                    Oct 26, 1997

        To set the record straight, the "discord" began when Jan Kerouac

filed suit against the Sampas family in May, 1994.  At that point, John

Sampas had been in control of the Kerouac Estate for 3 years.  He had made

no move to put the Kerouac Archive in a library during that period.  To the

contrary, he had sold a good many pieces off to collectors and dealers, and

he had sabotaged his own dealer Jeffrey Weinberg's attempt to sell the

entire archive to the Bancroft Library in Berkeley.  Sampas had also

rebuffed and insulted Tom Staley of the Humanities Research Center at U of

Texas, Austin, who was also interested in purchasing the collection.

Weinberg and Bonnie Bearden of the Bancroft Library as well as Tom Staley

are available to verify what I say (not "unsubstantiated" as Mr. Gyenis will

claim).

        So please do not hold the "discord" responsible for the Kerouac

Archive not being available in a library right now.  I know that is what Mr.

Maher and Mr. Sampas's other supporters have claimed.

        They ignore the fact that I have offered again and again to work

with Mr. Sampas on getting the Kerouac Archive into a library RIGHT NOW.

The lawsuit, if it goes forward, will determine who gets what share of the

revenue from the Kerouac Estate, and whether Jan's heirs and Jack's nephew

Paul Blake Jr deserve to get anything.  But a library sale could be made

tomorrow, and the money could be put in escrow until the court decides

whether it all belongs to Mr. Sampas or whether he must share it with Mr.

Blake and Ms. Kerouac's heirs.  It is that simple, and that easy, if Mr.

Sampas wanted to do it.

        Bancroft, Stanford, and New York Public would all pay one million

dollars for the archive tomorrow, and I know that because I have talked to

the respective collections directors of each library.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:13:05 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      The Gang of One

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I saw an enlightening painting on North Poplar Street in Wichita between

Douglas and Second this weekend.  It was titled "A Gang of One".

 

I returned to a digest that included a diatribe or polemic i'm not

certain which concerning the anti-Johnsonishtistic cliqueishness of

elements on the Beat-L "ganging" up on folks and throwing them to the

wolves.  And i thought -- oh yeah i think i did body slam that guy once

or twice.  Sad that he took it as hateful.  Oh well.

 

And then of course the gang doesn't ever argue within itself.  We never

disagree amongst ourselves -- we only say GO GO GO and AH! and this and

that wondering who can pat the other's backs fastest and bestest and we

do this while mentioning coded messages of the music which we're

listening to while writing (for example i'm listening to Howl in my left

ear and a learning channel show on apparitions in my right at this

moment) and the coded soundtrack changes the whole meaning of the whole

thing to everyone here and there and everywhere that is IN the gang but

is intended obviously as a stonewalling of those who are out.  Like my

introduction to the Beat-L when I was so fucking beat that in reading

Rinaldo on Howl and the Declaration of Independence pulled Carl Becker's

historical interpretation off the bookshelf and began to scan it and

told people that i was reading it (and the author wasn't even BEAT

egad)  and of course i've committed a crime against humanity here and

there in my days on and off list.  I've burned a book or two and torn

many apart to place them in different order in journals -- tossing on a

title and giving it to my shrink.  And i've liberated more books than

anyone on this list in my youth and what am i to do about it.  i ain't

much of a liberator these days.  I'm much more of a donater taking a box

of books to charities usually a couple times a month.  But how long will

this bardonic purgatorgistic mark of theft hang on my brow like Cain

perhaps I can spawn an entire race and will this race be as EVIL as

America as the world as Moloch or Angels?  I have no clue

 

And who do I see to get into this Gang anyway.  How many in this Gang?

What are their names what are their names do you know the folks on the

good Reuben James?  I must wonder now and then but I am told that if one

merely mails to listserv address the word REVIEW the list of the

co-conspirators will flash on my screen and i can mark down which are on

the side of grace and which on the side of Moloch and who live in Kansas

or have been through Wichita and driven down Poplar Street is obviously

something of a Calvinistic notion of the "elect" in this Gang of One.

 

But what was I saying?

 

Oh yes.  I drove South.  I saw.  I visited.  I followed an enchanting

Irish pied piper keyboard from oldtown to the Bill Garrison blues

society convention birthday party an eclectic Ericksonian halloween bash

and a rendition of "All of Me" in which we all decided we were only half

conscious so began again singing "Half of me, why not take Half of Me"

and then walked again into a dark wichita night and the Gang of One

painting lead me here and there and to the Knights Motel and back across

to Poplar and to the U. and to Southeast Asia foreign policy concerning

Burmese/Myanamaristic heroin dealing.  And return to a diatribe against

my one nation under God and heard a cat say this morning "I invent more

Gods in one day than you will believe in in a lifetime" and so I

understand but then again after about two or three questions from moi he

did admit that he also "destroys more Gods in one day than you will

believe in in a lifetime" and this caveman's eyes sparkle in a cricket

habitat as he says these things and so do i invent or do i destroy and

am I america or is america some evil demon someone ELSE has created and

that i will sit around and whine about in my youth.  Of course it is,

because we all go through those days ... bad hair days in which the

world is our oyster and the troubles are all caused by them.  By the

gang.  That damn clique on the Beat-L -- they're probably responsible

for the tensions in Kashmir afterall aren't they.  And I am A GANG OF

ONE!  but it is pretty fucking big ONE if you get the drift.  ONE nation

under GOD (pick a god any god) INDIVISABLE ah there's the rub.  At least

to those who ain't in Kansas cuz ya gotta know that whether you pick

Lecompton or Topeka the crystal on my bathroom shelf still shines the

same mystic colours.  Why divide?  Why not belive in indivisibility?

Because I am not me?  You are not me.  I am not in the Gang.  The Gang

is in the Gang and since I'm outside of the Gang I must not be in the

Gang and I am outside the Gang because I ain't no I yet I'm sitting

around saying YOU YOU YOU it's all your fault.  Well, son, find a little

Moloch in yourself ... smile at it sing Holy Holy Holy to your Moloch

admit it and get over it and become a Gang of One and then look around

at the Gangs of Gangs that Mother of All Gangs that you feared most

(whichever it happens to be this minute) and you'll say -- Oh it's you!

Why didn't you tell me were falling into that old Steppenwolf spiritual

trip again!!! <grin>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:35:39 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I think the Florida marlins just won the World seies.  Renteria hit one up

the middle in the 11th.

 

Tony Fernandez was "the goat" (always unfair to call someone the goat to my

mind--but they do) was Livan Hernandez the MVP.  This guy is just 22 years

old and he had to escape from Cuba (escape--run away--flee) to come to the

US and play.

 

Go figure.

 

"I love you Miami" is what he shouted.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:03:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: estate stuff and blah blah

 

In a message dated 97-10-25 17:30:20 EDT, Gerry writes:

 

<<  That's the only time we  have met, to my recollection.  YOu certainly

never attended any of my other  speeches or presentations in Lowell. ...

(snip)         ....You had to have had access to Jan's deposition, which

could only have been thru Sampas.  And that deposition tells how she

discovered the forgery, just as the SAMPAS's deposition of me tells my side

of the story.  If you haven't read my side yet, just go on over to Sampas's

house and read it.  I'm sure he'd be more than happy to show it to you.  And

don't forget to ask him for another Viking/Penguin ad for DHARMA BEAT, while

you're at it.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia>>

 

Gerry,

 

Besides the Greek dinner that we shared, I videotaped your speech in Lowell

when you talked about 'The Tragedy of Jack Kerouac" (not sure of the exact

title) and we talked several times that weekend. I saw you another year when

Jan and you spoke at the Middlesex Community College (about the archives and

stuff). I saw you in New York at the two NYU events. The second year at NYU

we weren't talking much because of a difference of opinion after you

disagreed about the way I edited an article that was to be included in DHARMA

beat (that was excerpted from your speech in Lowell), which never got

published after you accused me of censorship. And I did talk to you once or

twice on the phone.

 

And I always supported the fact that Jack's archives should be publicly

available as Jack intended. I just don't think Jack intended you to handle

it.

 

And I have always felt that Jan was due something from the estate being the

daughter of Jack. But a few years ago, when I found that she was getting

monies (royalties) from the estate, that issue became less of an concern. How

much more she should have gotten, legally or ethically, is a different

question that I don't have a strong opinion on.

 

When I say "met with" I mean more then just a hello. So while I have seen

John Sampas many times during the Lowell events, I have only met and talked

with him a few times.

 

I have only approached John Sampas once for material for DHARMA beat (and

that was this year and I got turned down). He did on his own offer DHARMA

beat two unpublished Kerouac pieces a couple of years ago (which we

published).

 

You make the accusation that the ads were all done through Mr. Sampas,

whereas in reality I contacted each of the companies myself, directly. Now if

you have information that Viking does not publish an ad without Sampas

approval, so be it.

 

I have NEVER been to John Sampas's house. I have NEVER seen Jan's depositions

(or your deposition).

 

These are all assumptions (among others) that you make and that you keep

repeating. It wasn't true the first time you said it and it is not true now

either.

 

I haven't lived near Lowell for over a year and a half (I used to live in New

Hampshire). Actually, we are practically neighbors since I am now living here

in northern California (Eureka).

 

so if you are coming over, let me know

and I'll bake you a cake

Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:03:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Steal this book

 

The people who are stealing Kerouac books aren't stealing them to read. They

are stealing them to resell to used bookstores. It is very hard to find used

Kerouac used books (since everyone keeps theirs for life). I know that is the

case in NYC. So I don't think it is the people on this list who are stealing

them (?or are you). Kerouac books, good as gold.

 

someone wrote:

>> Now I'm hearing that followers of the beat generation are notorious  book

thieves in some areas.  What does that say about the Beat ethic?  Do any of

you bookstore employees on this list know of other books and genres that are

eminently stealable?  I can't believe that in the whole wide world of books,

only Beat Generation

topics inspire theft. ..

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:35:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Why there is no Jack Kerouac Archive to Study

In-Reply-To:  <199710270554.VAA13684@germany.it.earthlink.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Dear Sherri:                    Oct 26, 1997

>        To set the record straight, the "discord" began when Jan Kerouac

>filed suit against the Sampas family in May, 1994.  At that point, John

>Sampas had been in control of the Kerouac Estate for 3 years.  He had made

>no move to put the Kerouac Archive in a library during that period.

 

Folks, read the above then pick up your copy of "Some of the Dharma" open

it to the forward and read this the fourth paragraph down. It reads,

 

 In June 1993, I placed the finished manuscript of "Some of the Dharma" and

the eleven spiral notebooks in which Jack originally wrote the book in the

New York Public Library's Berg Collection. They are available there for

study by literary scholars.

John Sampas Executor - The Estate of Jack Kerouac

 

Personally I would love to see all the archives in a library at some point,

as I'm sure all of you would but I think anyone would be a fool to only get

one million for it. Gerry, I'm sure John really appreciates all your help

but somehow I don't think he needs you to negotiate a deal with a library

for him. Phil Chaput

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:06:46 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: replace country with world?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Leon Tabory wrote:

 

> I can be pissed at  lack of compassion and at mistreatment of people

> anywhere in the world. Screw you suggests to me not a call for a

> specific

> action but an outraged outcry at uncalled for meanness. I don't think

> it is

> fair to single out the United States as being a bad apple among

> nations,

> when in my opinion it is qactually better than most.

 

Leon,

 

I have to agree with you about the replacing of America with world,

because the kind of meanness you suggest is in effect widespread as

"man's inhumanity to man."  I read Keith's screw you America to mean he

wants nothing to do with what America is, but whether one likes it or

not, whether we feel we are in or out of the mainstream, we are all a

part of America unless we chose to leave it.  I would rather see the

screw you applied more appropriately to specific actions and not the

country as a whole, much like what Ginsberg was doing when he wrote "Go

fuck yourself with your atom bomb."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:03:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      progress report Howl part one [Fwd: Re: howling]

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here is where i'm at in thinking concerning Howl part one over on the

Burke-L.  If any of y'all can provide details and insights to help me

further in this expedition i appreciate any help.  Feel free to splice

your own thoughts right into the stream of thought.  One of Kenneth

Burke's beliefs was in "the ongoing conversation" and i believe that

things i've discovered on Beat-L such as the exploding text are right in

line with this approach.

 

dbr

 

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Message-ID: <3454AAC8.5398@midusa.net>

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:52:56 -0600

From: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

CC: burke-L <Burke-L@siu.edu>

Subject: Re: howling

References: <v01540b00b070ecdea0ae@[206.211.128.174]> <344BBF3A.4477@midusa.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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RACE --- wrote:

> 

> i'll try to put into words more clearly the process involved in the next

> few days.  Well back from Wichita -- had a good talk with John O. Burtis of

 Kansas State about this process over the weekend at Wichita State.  Not too

 much time this morning but will try to provide another layer of thought.

> 

Richard wrote:

> > (2)So: What is being unfolded, what is being folded?

> 

> while i just did it visually, the best way to understand it would be

> literally the paper is folded and unfolded.

 

But beyond this literal -- which is something of a movement from some of

William Burroughs and Brion Gysin's toying with the evolutionary virus

of symbolism, there are obviously movements and layers of folding and

unfolding.  John had some interesting insights in this regard.

> 

Richard wrote:

 

>  I see one specific

> > word repeated ("naked"), but what is it specifically that connects the two

> > passages you mention?

 

in addition to the structural notions mentioned below, i think it is

fair to suggest that the depth of condensation of the term "naked" in

the Beat spin on language is significant.  "Naked" might even be

considered a God-term of the Beatific.  I hope that some can offer

examples of the revelatory function of the naked terminology of

"naked".  I will contemplate at attempt to come up with some examples

myself.

> 

> it would be the difference structurally of these passages from the

> litany of who's between.  I would guess that the second passage should

> probably be extended further.

 

Now i'm adding a twist of sorts to the folding and unfolding which comes

from William and Brion's works and obviously is influenced by the film

and music artist-producers.  A bit of splicing by incorporating a tad of

KB's dialectician's hymn into the stew.

> 

> so for example:

> 

> Hail to Thee, Logos, Thou Vast Almighty Title . . . I saw the best minds of my

 generation destroyed by madness, starving

> hysterical naked . . .In whose name we conjure our acts the partial

 representatives ... who studied Plotinus Poe St. John of the Cross

> telepathy and bop kaballa because the cosmos instinctively vibrated at

> their feet in Kansas ... to recreate the syntax and measure ... Of Thy whole

 act. . . . of poor human prose and stand before you speechless and intelligent

 and shaking with shame, ... may we be Thy delegates In parliament assembled.

 Parts of thy wholeness.  And in our conflicts Correcting one another ...

 rejected yet confessing out the soul to conform to the

> rhythm of thought in his naked and endless head, the madman bum and

> angel beat in Time, unknown, yet putting down here what might be left to

> say in time come after death .....By study of our errors Gaining Revelation.

> 

 

I believe that the splicing of the poetry of Kenneth Burke into the

folding and unfolding example begins to paint a bit more of where my

idea is headed.  Perhaps we can have an apparitional panel at the Iowa

City conference in which KB and WSB and others of significance can

dissect the howling of post-Nagasaki literature even more <smile>.

 

> it seems that each of the "who" sections when set within these folds (as

> shown here with the Kansas line) shows that AG has condensed a huge tale

> that perhaps is yet to be told.  In Kerouacian style, the telling of

> this line alone would likely be most of a book.  AG condenses so much

> experience into these lines revealing a glimpse of the lives but hiding

> the details of the stories, the legends, the myths.

 

I had even more insight -- near epiphany of a notion suggested by

patricia elliot of lawrence that there are no minor poets -- while in

Wichita.  Having bracketed the one in the litany of who's prior to

wichita expedition, i found myself receiving tour of town from a gentle

Irishman who has just published in small press a book about a tavern in

Wichita named "A Blackout".  It is precisely the "type" of work -- in

this instance something of "a folklore of a place" that is not revealed

but suggested and hidden in the litany of the who's in the pre-folded

form and this is precisely the type of unfolding that i was hoping to

show.  It is these types of small press "minor" writer works which fill

the experiential gaps in the anthem of Part One of Howl for Carl

Solomon.

> 

> i will try and do more to flesh out what i'm up to in the coming days.

i will try and do more to flesh out what i'm up to in the coming weeks.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> >

dbr

 

--------------3A03BDB4DC9--

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:15:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      beat websites: updated today

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Here's my updated (plus the original) Beat websites listing. If your site

isn't included here, don't get mad... just send the link (yo, what do a l=

ook

like, a freakin librarian?) and I'll include it in my master list, which =

is

certainly NOT definitive.

 

I understand that when these leave my mailbox and go through cyberspace,

there is some garbling or something. If you have trouble deciphering any =

of

these links, let me know, and I'll do what I can to help.

 

IF YOU ARE ON AOL, write to me directly and I'll send you the "hot-linked=

"

list. That will save you the trouble of typing the URL into your web brow=

ser.

You can just click on the hyperlink and ZINNNNG! Yer there.

 

For those of you who've already seen these, skip down to the line that sa=

ys

"Updated 27 October..."

 

diane de rooy

 

COMPASS POINTS ON THE cyberROAD

"Route 66 can be read in two directions. First stop on this page : Jack

Kerouac and the 'Beat Generation', a coast to coast trip down the legenda=

ry

highway, in the footsteps of the beatniks. A page of history. Second stop=

 :

Jack Kerouac and the 'Byte Generation', where we take a virtual stroll,

seeking memories of Route 66 in the Web universe. Or when the mouse repla=

ces

the car... " --From the intro to  "Jack Kerouac and the "Beat Generation"

home page

EVENTS

LCKerouac Festival Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://members.aol.com/lckerouac/festival.htm">http://members.=

aol.com

/lckerouac/festival.htm</A>

SITES WITH LINKS

Literary Kicks =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.charm.net/%7Ebrooklyn/LitKicks.html">http://www.cha=

rm.net/

%7Ebrooklyn/LitKicks.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The Unofficial WSB website =3D

<A HREF=3D"http://www.peg.apc.org/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html">http://www.peg=

.apc.or

g/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The Wild Bohemian Home Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.halcyon.com/colinp/bohemian.htm">http://www.halcyon=

.com/co

linp/bohemian.htm</A>

"Included here are links to pages about Hippies, the Beat Generation, the

Grateful Dead and other Bohemian bands, outlaw bikers (including the Hell=

s

Angels), all the way back to... Diogenes and the Cynics. --Colin Pringle

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Ignition - On the Road in CyberSpace =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.the-wire.com/newjon/what.html">http://www.the-wire.=

com/new

jon/what.html</A>

"I=92m Jon Newton, a writer living in Toronto, Canada. CyberSpace ...is a=

 Black

Hole to most people who aren=92t online so why not write a kind of CyberS=

pace

On the Road, after Jack Kerouac?"

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Cassady's Home Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/5160">http://www.geocities.com/S=

oHo/516

0</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The William S. Burroughs Files =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.hyperreal.com/wsb/">http://www.hyperreal.com/wsb/</=

A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

burroughs =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.peg.apc.org/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html">http://www.peg=

.apc.or

g/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

BohemianInk =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.levity.com/corduroy/index.htm">http://www.levity.co=

m/cordu

roy/index.htm</A>=20

Special mention goes to this site for its incredible focus on the art it

promotes, rather than the personalities who created it.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Jack Kerouac and the "Beat Generation" =3D

<A HREF=3D"http://www.virgin.fr/virgin/html/us/nostalgia/route66/beat_gen=

eration

.html">http://www.virgin.fr/virgin/html/us/nostalgia/route66/beat_generat=

ion.h

tml</A>

Weird, fascinating, filled with inaccuracies, but worth visiting nonethel=

ess,

if only to experience a French point of view on Jean Louis Kirouac.

PUBLISHERS

BookZen =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.bookzen.com">http://www.bookzen.com</A>

WRITING/EDUCATION

Kerouac, Spontaneous Prose =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/kerouac-spontaneous.=

html">h

ttp://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/kerouac-spontaneous.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

English 320W-02: The Beat Generation =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/kerouac-spontaneous.=

html">h

ttp://www.mnsfld.edu/~julrich/beatweb.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The Writer's Gallery =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html">http=

://www.

onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Ball's Beat Generation =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.vmi.edu/%7Eenglish/beats.html">http://www.vmi.edu/%=

7Eengli

sh/beats.html</A>

Perhaps the most unlikely source for Beat links: Home page features Virgi=

nia

Military Institute cadets in uniform. "Intended Primarily for Students of=

 EN

365 This page contains links to multifaceted webs devoted to Kerouac,

Ginsberg, Burroughs, and other major figures of the Beat Generation."

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

<A HREF=3D"http://www.mnsfld.edu/~julrich/beatweb.html">http://www.mnsfld=

.edu/~j

ulrich/beatweb.html</A>

Welcome to the Internet Resources Page for English 320W-02: The Beat

Generation

Mansfield University of Pennsylvania=20

CHAT

beat generation private chatroom =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html">aol:=

//2719:

2-2-beat%20generation</A>

TRIBUTES

Charles Plymell =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html">http://www.buchenroth=

.com/cp

lymell.html</A>

FANTASY

1996 Dharma Beats Roster =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.clark.net/pub/cosmic/96dbr.html">http://www.clark.n=

et/pub/

cosmic/96dbr.html</A>

"Kerouac managing veterans like Ginsberg and Huncke, along with rookies l=

ike

Kurt Cobain."=20

MAGAZINES

Steve Silberman's How Beat was born =3D

<A HREF=3D"http://ezone.org/ez/e2/articles/digaman.html">http://ezone.org=

/ez/e2/

articles/digaman.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

Shambhala Sun Home Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.shambhalasun.com/">http://www.shambhalasun.com/</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

Allen Ginsberg =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.talk.com/talk/club/special/transcripts/96-12-16-gin=

sberg.h

tml">http://www.talk.com/talk/club/special/transcripts/96-12-16-ginsberg.=

html<

/A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

WIRED magazine =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://wwww.wired.com/wired/">http://wwww.wired.com/wired/</A>

BOOKSTORES

1 800 KEROUAC - Beat Generation Catalog =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.kerouac.com/">http://www.kerouac.com/</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

Jack Kerouac at the Iliad =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://host.interloc.com/%7Eiliadbks/kerouac.html">http://host=

.interl

oc.com/%7Eiliadbks/kerouac.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

About Allen Ginsberg =3D Open Book Systems

<A HREF=3D"http://www.obs-europa.de/obs/english/books/ginsberg/ata.htm">h=

ttp://w

ww.obs-europa.de/obs/english/books/ginsberg/ata.htm</A>

SOUNDS

Kerouac Speaks =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html">=

http://

www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html</A>

NEWSGROUPS

<A HREF=3D"Beat-L@listserv.cuny.edu">Beat-L@listserv.cuny.edu</A>

alt.books.beatgeneration =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"aol://5863:126/alt.books.beatgeneration">aol://5863:126/alt.bo=

oks.bea

tgeneration</A>

MUSIC/MULTIMEDIA

Rhino Records - Catalog - Kerouac, Jack =3D <A HREF=3D"http://rhino.com/s=

earch/art

info.cfm?name=3DKEROUAC,+JACK">http://rhino.com/search/artinfo.cfm?name=3D=

KEROUAC,

+JACK</A>

VERVE Celebrates Charlie Parker =3D <A HREF=3D"http://www.jazzonln.com/JA=

ZZ/LABELS

/VERVE2/birdhome.htm">http://www.jazzonln.com/JAZZ/LABELS/VERVE2/birdhome=

.htm<

/A>

Sean Singer's Jazz Literature Page  =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/%7Essinger/">http://ezinfo.ucs.i=

ndiana.

edu/%7Essinger/</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Additions: Updated 27 October 1997, in no particular order:

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.bibd.appstate.edu/~kh14586/links/beats/">Beat Lite=

rature<

/A> good ol' Alex Howard....

http://www.bibd.appstate.edu/~kh14586/links/beats/

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html">Th=

e Beat=20

Literature Page</A>=20

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/BeatGen.html">The Beat Genera=

tion: =20

Audio and Video Materia...</A>

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/BeatGen.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.compendium-books.com/beat/beatnew.htm">Beat Books =

and Poe

try List - General Beat Cul...</A> =20

http://www.compendium-books.com/beat/beatnew.htm

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column24.html">column24.=

html at

 www.bigmagic.com</A>=20

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column24.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://euro.net/mark-space/ElisabethVonarburg2.html">Mark/Spa=

ce: Ana

chron City: Library: Authors: ...</A>

http://euro.net/mark-space/ElisabethVonarburg2.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Revie=

w_entry

.html">Sixties Literature: Book, Film, Music and Mul...</A> =20

http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Review_entry.html

 

The author loses points for not knowing the difference between Dobie Gill=

is

and Maynard G. Krebs at this site:=20

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.columbia.edu/acis/bartleby/cjas/11/9.html">Nanes, =

Susan.=20

1995. Beat-ing a Dead Horse. CJ...</A>=20

http://www.columbia.edu/acis/bartleby/cjas/11/9.html

 

Levi Asher: always bears repeating:

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/BeatSources.html">Books=

 About=20

The Beats</A>

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/BeatSources.html=20

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.sfnorthbeach.com/jul96.html">And The Beach Goes On=

..July=20

1996</A>=20

http://www.sfnorthbeach.com/jul96.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.waterrowbooks.com/wrcatalog3.html">wrcatalog3.html=

 at www

.waterrowbooks.com</A>=20

http://www.waterrowbooks.com/wrcatalog3.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.dtx.net/~vonhalem/kerouac.html">kerouac.html at ww=

w.dtx.n

et</A>=20

http://www.dtx.net/~vonhalem/kerouac.html

 

If you seek enlightenment, or maybe need a reference point as you make yo=

ur

way through "Some of the Dharma:"

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/BuddhPages/Daily-Zen-Sutras.=

html">B

uddhist Studies - Daily Zen Sutras</A>=20

http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/BuddhPages/Daily-Zen-Sutras.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.fmp.com/amram/kerouac.html">Jack Kerouac and David=

 Amram<

/A>=20

http://www.fmp.com/amram/kerouac.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.citylights.com/">Welcome to City Lights Bookseller=

s and P

ublis...</A>=20

http://www.citylights.com/

 

If you're looking for Beat books to collect:

<A HREF=3D"http://www.abebooks.com/">The Advanced Book Exchange Home Page=

</A>=20

http://www.abebooks.com/

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.rmisp.com/kerouac/">jack-K</A>=20

http://www.rmisp.com/kerouac/

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.theatlantic.com/atlantic/issues/96aug/jackk/jackk.=

htm">Th

e Only People For Him</A>=20

http://www.theatlantic.com/atlantic/issues/96aug/jackk/jackk.htm

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.biography.com/read/reviews/jackk.html">Biography's=

 Top 10

 List-Jack Kerouac</A>=20

http://www.biography.com/read/reviews/jackk.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://users.aol.com/paulcllins/resindex.html">The Garden of =

Forking

 Paths: Green</A>=20

http://users.aol.com/paulcllins/resindex.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.tvguide.com/tv/poetry/ginsberg.htm">Allen Ginsberg=

 interv

iew</A>=20

http://www.tvguide.com/tv/poetry/ginsberg.htm

 

 <A HREF=3D"aol://4344:125.oct97_36.1331404.558905965">WILLIAM S. BURROUG=

HS: 191

4-1997: The Priest</A>=20

aol://4344:125.oct97_36.1331404.558905965

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.viperroom.com/Kerouactimes.html">KEROUAC TRIBUTE-L=

A TIMES

 REVIEW</A>=20

http://www.viperroom.com/Kerouactimes.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.mainelink.net/~writer/cafe_html/spring_95/spring.h=

tml">SP

RING 95</A>=20

http://www.mainelink.net/~writer/cafe_html/spring_95/spring.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.lisp.wayne.edu/beat.html">Beatniks on the Internet=

</A>=20

http://www.lisp.wayne.edu/beat.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://members.aol.com/KEROUACZIN/DHARMAbeat.htlm">DHARMA bea=

t's Hom

e Page</A>=20

http://members.aol.com/KEROUACZIN/DHARMAbeat.htlm

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html">The=

 Keroua

c Quarterly</A>=20

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html

 

I don't know about you, but this next thing made me completely ill. Let m=

e

know what you think:

 <A HREF=3D"http://www2.linknet.net/fahey/Wisdom/">Wisdom's Maw - Now Ava=

ilable!

</A>=20

http://www2.linknet.net/fahey/Wisdom/

 

Not so Beat, but good for dessert:

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.netsurf.org/~stampf/KamaSutra/">The Love Teachings=

 of Kam

a Sutra</A>=20

http://www.netsurf.org/~stampf/KamaSutra/

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:50:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: America is

In-Reply-To:  <3454161D.E6BE920F@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> America is a pine tree in South Carolina.

> 

> On the other hand, some folks would like to forget South Carolina.

> 

I think South Carolina is the realization of a great oxymoron:  anarchist

government.  No one tells them what to do but them.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:20:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Stoner Dorson <JenPeace2U@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat websites: updated today

 

Diane

 

the list was quite extensive...so I guess I know where I will be spending

my next few days...I just wanted to say thanks for sharing it.

 

peace

jen

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:25:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat websites: updated today

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Jen--- these should be hot, and save you lots of time. Click on blue

lines....

 

diane

COMPASS POINTS ON THE cyberROAD

"Route 66 can be read in two directions. First stop on this page : Jack

Kerouac and the 'Beat Generation', a coast to coast trip down the legenda=

ry

highway, in the footsteps of the beatniks. A page of history. Second stop=

 :

Jack Kerouac and the 'Byte Generation', where we take a virtual stroll,

seeking memories of Route 66 in the Web universe. Or when the mouse repla=

ces

the car... " --From the intro to  "Jack Kerouac and the "Beat Generation"

home page

EVENTS

LCKerouac Festival Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://members.aol.com/lckerouac/festival.htm">http://members.=

aol.com

/lckerouac/festival.htm</A>

SITES WITH LINKS

Literary Kicks =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.charm.net/%7Ebrooklyn/LitKicks.html">http://www.cha=

rm.net/

%7Ebrooklyn/LitKicks.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The Unofficial WSB website =3D

<A HREF=3D"http://www.peg.apc.org/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html">http://www.peg=

.apc.or

g/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The Wild Bohemian Home Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.halcyon.com/colinp/bohemian.htm">http://www.halcyon=

.com/co

linp/bohemian.htm</A>

"Included here are links to pages about Hippies, the Beat Generation, the

Grateful Dead and other Bohemian bands, outlaw bikers (including the Hell=

s

Angels), all the way back to... Diogenes and the Cynics. --Colin Pringle

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Ignition - On the Road in CyberSpace =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.the-wire.com/newjon/what.html">http://www.the-wire.=

com/new

jon/what.html</A>

"I=92m Jon Newton, a writer living in Toronto, Canada. CyberSpace ...is a=

 Black

Hole to most people who aren=92t online so why not write a kind of CyberS=

pace

On the Road, after Jack Kerouac?"

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Cassady's Home Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/5160">http://www.geocities.com/S=

oHo/516

0</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The William S. Burroughs Files =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.hyperreal.com/wsb/">http://www.hyperreal.com/wsb/</=

A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

burroughs =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.peg.apc.org/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html">http://www.peg=

.apc.or

g/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

BohemianInk =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.levity.com/corduroy/index.htm">http://www.levity.co=

m/cordu

roy/index.htm</A>=20

Special mention goes to this site for its incredible focus on the art it

promotes, rather than the personalities who created it.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Jack Kerouac and the "Beat Generation" =3D

<A HREF=3D"http://www.virgin.fr/virgin/html/us/nostalgia/route66/beat_gen=

eration

.html">http://www.virgin.fr/virgin/html/us/nostalgia/route66/beat_generat=

ion.h

tml</A>

Weird, fascinating, filled with inaccuracies, but worth visiting nonethel=

ess,

if only to experience a French point of view on Jean Louis Kirouac.

PUBLISHERS

BookZen =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.bookzen.com">http://www.bookzen.com</A>

WRITING/EDUCATION

Kerouac, Spontaneous Prose =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/kerouac-spontaneous.=

html">h

ttp://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/kerouac-spontaneous.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

English 320W-02: The Beat Generation =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/kerouac-spontaneous.=

html">h

ttp://www.mnsfld.edu/~julrich/beatweb.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The Writer's Gallery =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html">http=

://www.

onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Ball's Beat Generation =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.vmi.edu/%7Eenglish/beats.html">http://www.vmi.edu/%=

7Eengli

sh/beats.html</A>

Perhaps the most unlikely source for Beat links: Home page features Virgi=

nia

Military Institute cadets in uniform. "Intended Primarily for Students of=

 EN

365 This page contains links to multifaceted webs devoted to Kerouac,

Ginsberg, Burroughs, and other major figures of the Beat Generation."

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

<A HREF=3D"http://www.mnsfld.edu/~julrich/beatweb.html">http://www.mnsfld=

.edu/~j

ulrich/beatweb.html</A>

Welcome to the Internet Resources Page for English 320W-02: The Beat

Generation

Mansfield University of Pennsylvania=20

CHAT

beat generation private chatroom =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html">aol:=

//2719:

2-2-beat%20generation</A>

TRIBUTES

Charles Plymell =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html">http://www.buchenroth=

.com/cp

lymell.html</A>

FANTASY

1996 Dharma Beats Roster =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.clark.net/pub/cosmic/96dbr.html">http://www.clark.n=

et/pub/

cosmic/96dbr.html</A>

"Kerouac managing veterans like Ginsberg and Huncke, along with rookies l=

ike

Kurt Cobain."=20

MAGAZINES

Steve Silberman's How Beat was born =3D

<A HREF=3D"http://ezone.org/ez/e2/articles/digaman.html">http://ezone.org=

/ez/e2/

articles/digaman.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

Shambhala Sun Home Page =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.shambhalasun.com/">http://www.shambhalasun.com/</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

Allen Ginsberg =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.talk.com/talk/club/special/transcripts/96-12-16-gin=

sberg.h

tml">http://www.talk.com/talk/club/special/transcripts/96-12-16-ginsberg.=

html<

/A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

WIRED magazine =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://wwww.wired.com/wired/">http://wwww.wired.com/wired/</A>

BOOKSTORES

1 800 KEROUAC - Beat Generation Catalog =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www.kerouac.com/">http://www.kerouac.com/</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

Jack Kerouac at the Iliad =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://host.interloc.com/%7Eiliadbks/kerouac.html">http://host=

.interl

oc.com/%7Eiliadbks/kerouac.html</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D

About Allen Ginsberg =3D Open Book Systems

<A HREF=3D"http://www.obs-europa.de/obs/english/books/ginsberg/ata.htm">h=

ttp://w

ww.obs-europa.de/obs/english/books/ginsberg/ata.htm</A>

SOUNDS

Kerouac Speaks =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html">=

http://

www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html</A>

NEWSGROUPS

<A HREF=3D"Beat-L@listserv.cuny.edu">Beat-L@listserv.cuny.edu</A>

alt.books.beatgeneration =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"aol://5863:126/alt.books.beatgeneration">aol://5863:126/alt.bo=

oks.bea

tgeneration</A>

MUSIC/MULTIMEDIA

Rhino Records - Catalog - Kerouac, Jack =3D <A HREF=3D"http://rhino.com/s=

earch/art

info.cfm?name=3DKEROUAC,+JACK">http://rhino.com/search/artinfo.cfm?name=3D=

KEROUAC,

+JACK</A>

VERVE Celebrates Charlie Parker =3D <A HREF=3D"http://www.jazzonln.com/JA=

ZZ/LABELS

/VERVE2/birdhome.htm">http://www.jazzonln.com/JAZZ/LABELS/VERVE2/birdhome=

.htm<

/A>

Sean Singer's Jazz Literature Page  =3D=20

<A HREF=3D"http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/%7Essinger/">http://ezinfo.ucs.i=

ndiana.

edu/%7Essinger/</A>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Additions: Updated 27 October 1997, in no particular order:

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.bibd.appstate.edu/~kh14586/links/beats/">Beat Lite=

rature<

/A> good ol' Alex Howard....

http://www.bibd.appstate.edu/~kh14586/links/beats/

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html">Th=

e Beat=20

Literature Page</A>=20

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/BeatGen.html">The Beat Genera=

tion: =20

Audio and Video Materia...</A>

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/BeatGen.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.compendium-books.com/beat/beatnew.htm">Beat Books =

and Poe

try List - General Beat Cul...</A> =20

http://www.compendium-books.com/beat/beatnew.htm

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column24.html">column24.=

html at

 www.bigmagic.com</A>=20

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column24.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://euro.net/mark-space/ElisabethVonarburg2.html">Mark/Spa=

ce: Ana

chron City: Library: Authors: ...</A>

http://euro.net/mark-space/ElisabethVonarburg2.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Revie=

w_entry

.html">Sixties Literature: Book, Film, Music and Mul...</A> =20

http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Review_entry.html

 

The author loses points for not knowing the difference between Dobie Gill=

is

and Maynard G. Krebs at this site:=20

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.columbia.edu/acis/bartleby/cjas/11/9.html">Nanes, =

Susan.=20

1995. Beat-ing a Dead Horse. CJ...</A>=20

http://www.columbia.edu/acis/bartleby/cjas/11/9.html

 

Levi Asher: always bears repeating:

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/BeatSources.html">Books=

 About=20

The Beats</A>

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/BeatSources.html=20

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.sfnorthbeach.com/jul96.html">And The Beach Goes On=

..July=20

1996</A>=20

http://www.sfnorthbeach.com/jul96.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.waterrowbooks.com/wrcatalog3.html">wrcatalog3.html=

 at www

.waterrowbooks.com</A>=20

http://www.waterrowbooks.com/wrcatalog3.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.dtx.net/~vonhalem/kerouac.html">kerouac.html at ww=

w.dtx.n

et</A>=20

http://www.dtx.net/~vonhalem/kerouac.html

 

If you seek enlightenment, or maybe need a reference point as you make yo=

ur

way through "Some of the Dharma:"

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/BuddhPages/Daily-Zen-Sutras.=

html">B

uddhist Studies - Daily Zen Sutras</A>=20

http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/BuddhPages/Daily-Zen-Sutras.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.fmp.com/amram/kerouac.html">Jack Kerouac and David=

 Amram<

/A>=20

http://www.fmp.com/amram/kerouac.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.citylights.com/">Welcome to City Lights Bookseller=

s and P

ublis...</A>=20

http://www.citylights.com/

 

If you're looking for Beat books to collect:

<A HREF=3D"http://www.abebooks.com/">The Advanced Book Exchange Home Page=

</A>=20

http://www.abebooks.com/

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.rmisp.com/kerouac/">jack-K</A>=20

http://www.rmisp.com/kerouac/

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.theatlantic.com/atlantic/issues/96aug/jackk/jackk.=

htm">Th

e Only People For Him</A>=20

http://www.theatlantic.com/atlantic/issues/96aug/jackk/jackk.htm

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.biography.com/read/reviews/jackk.html">Biography's=

 Top 10

 List-Jack Kerouac</A>=20

http://www.biography.com/read/reviews/jackk.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://users.aol.com/paulcllins/resindex.html">The Garden of =

Forking

 Paths: Green</A>=20

http://users.aol.com/paulcllins/resindex.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.tvguide.com/tv/poetry/ginsberg.htm">Allen Ginsberg=

 interv

iew</A>=20

http://www.tvguide.com/tv/poetry/ginsberg.htm

 

 <A HREF=3D"aol://4344:125.oct97_36.1331404.558905965">WILLIAM S. BURROUG=

HS: 191

4-1997: The Priest</A>=20

aol://4344:125.oct97_36.1331404.558905965

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.viperroom.com/Kerouactimes.html">KEROUAC TRIBUTE-L=

A TIMES

 REVIEW</A>=20

http://www.viperroom.com/Kerouactimes.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.mainelink.net/~writer/cafe_html/spring_95/spring.h=

tml">SP

RING 95</A>=20

http://www.mainelink.net/~writer/cafe_html/spring_95/spring.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.lisp.wayne.edu/beat.html">Beatniks on the Internet=

</A>=20

http://www.lisp.wayne.edu/beat.html

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://members.aol.com/KEROUACZIN/DHARMAbeat.htlm">DHARMA bea=

t's Hom

e Page</A>=20

http://members.aol.com/KEROUACZIN/DHARMAbeat.htlm

 

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html">The=

 Keroua

c Quarterly</A>=20

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html

 

I don't know about you, but this next thing made me completely ill. Let m=

e

know what you think:

 <A HREF=3D"http://www2.linknet.net/fahey/Wisdom/">Wisdom's Maw - Now Ava=

ilable!

</A>=20

http://www2.linknet.net/fahey/Wisdom/

 

Not so Beat, but good for dessert:

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.netsurf.org/~stampf/KamaSutra/">The Love Teachings=

 of Kam

a Sutra</A>=20

http://www.netsurf.org/~stampf/KamaSutra/

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:28:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      sorry about the duplication...

 

meant to send it to jen directly, of course. didn't check my "To:" box. Must

be getting a bad case of Staufferitis.

 

hee hee hee....

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:30:38 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Steal this book

 

As a librarian, I know that we (here at Kenyon college) stamp "DISCARD" on any

old library books we get rid of. If you want to boycott stolen books , you

might avoid ex-library copies that do not have a DISCARD stamp in them. I think

this practice is fairly common. Of course I say this after having bought a nice

ex-library copy of BIG SUR a few years ago (and also and ex-lib copy of Phillip

K. Dick's DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP). As any devout buyer of used

books knows, ex-library copies are not worth much in the investment dept. They

generally have the same statues as "READING COPIES." Once a book has been

stamped and bar coded, the price goes down. So buyer beware, choose as yer

concious directs!

 

dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:48:39 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

In-Reply-To:  <v01510101b0798430fde8@[128.125.222.5]>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>I think the Florida marlins just won the World seies.  Renteria hit one up

>the middle in the 11th.

> 

>Tony Fernandez was "the goat" (always unfair to call someone the goat to my

>mind--but they do) was Livan Hernandez the MVP.  This guy is just 22 years

>old and he had to escape from Cuba (escape--run away--flee) to come to the

>US and play.

> 

>Go figure.

> 

>"I love you Miami" is what he shouted.

 

Mr. Gallaher,

 

After hearing about the game this morning I was really sorry I didn't stop

work and watch it last night. Hernandez is an incredible baseball player.

As baeball fans know, Cuba has a reputation for developing outstanding

baseball players. One ponly has to check the history of how their teams do

in the Olympics.

 

Also, he didn't have to "escape--run away--flee" Cuba to play baseball, he

had to leave Cuba to become a millionare baseball player.

 

I have no problem with that, but there are many who would call him a

"gusano." That's unfair  because so many Cubans in the U.S. send money to

their relatives in Cuba.

 

It hasn't been easy on that tiny island with the most powerful nation on

earth doing everything in it's power--short of invasion and all-out war--to

break their economic back.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:51:15 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Why there is no Jack Kerouac Archive to Study

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:35 AM 10/27/97 -0500, Phil Chaput wrote: I think anyone would be a

fool to only get

>one million for it. Gerry, I'm sure John really appreciates all your help

>but somehow I don't think he needs you to negotiate a deal with a library

>for him. Phil Chaput

> 

Phil,   Oct 27, 1997

        The libraries I mentioned, offering a million bucks for the Kerouac

Archive, are the richest in the country.  No library has got more than a

million (or maybe a million and a quarter, tops) to offer.  The only way Mr.

Sampas can get more is by selling the stuff off to collectors and dealers.

Then he can get a lot more, like about twenty million dollars (estimate

given me by several Beat dealers).

        Is that what you support--a return to the public marketing of pieces

of the archive?

        P.S. I offered my help because Maher and others claim it is the

lawsuit that prevents the deposit of Kerouac materials in a library.

        Respectfully, your father's friend

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:54:35 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: estate stuff and blah blah

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 03:03 AM 10/27/97 -0500, Attila Gyenis wrote:

>And I always supported the fact that Jack's archives should be publicly

>available as Jack intended. I just don't think Jack intended you to handle

>it...

 I have NEVER seen Jan's depositions

>(or your deposition).

 

Dear Attila,  Oct 27, 1997

        Jack sure as hell didn't intend the Sampases to take care of his

archive.  He wrote to Paul Blake, Jr. on October 20, 1997, just before he

fell ill: "I just wanted to leave my 'estate' (which is what it really is)

to someone directly connected with the last remaining drop of my direct

blood line, which is, me sister Carolyn, your Mom, and not to leave a

dingblasted f------g think to my wife's one hundred Greek relatives."

        On the other hand, I have in my possession signed statements from

both Paul Blake, Jr. and Jan Kerouac--who are the last remaining "drops of

his direct blood line"--stating that they wish me to care for Jack Kerouac's

archive.

        Jan's will reads: "As to these [Jack Kerouac's] literary works and

materials, I appoint GERALD NICOSIA as Literary Executor.  In his capacity

as Literary Executor, he shall make all decisions regarding the appropriate

publication, republication, sale, license, or any other exploitation of any

nature of any intellectual property rights... [of these materials]."

        The statement made by Paul Blake reads in part: "Gerald Nicosia is

authorized to seek information about libraries or other educational

institutions capable of housing and making available for study the literary

archive of my Uncle Jack Kerouac."

        In view of all this, how do you support your contention that John

Sampas should be in control of Kerouac's archive?

        P.S. I'm still trying to figure out how several mistakes from Jan's

deposition showed up in only one other place: YOUR POSTS.  Like the fact

that Jan was supposedly "on Medicaid."  Mr. Sampas's lawyer made this

mistake in the deposition, and it is a pretty dumb one, since you have to

earn less than $600 a month to get on Medicaid, and everybody (certainly

you) knew that Jan was making more than $600 a month.  Did you talk to

someone who'd read the deposition?

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:54:14 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      naked breakfast (was Re: beat websites: updated today

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Diane De Rooy wrote:

> 

> Not so Beat, but good for dessert:

>  <A HREF="http://www.netsurf.org/~stampf/KamaSutra/">The Love Teachings of Kam

> a Sutra</A>

> http://www.netsurf.org/~stampf/KamaSutra/

 

ain't bad for a naked breakfast either!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:59:24 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Bob Kaufman Award

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Hi to everyone!       Oct 27, 1997

        Just wanted to explain that I'll be scarce for a few days since I'm

headed down to L.A. to collect the PEN USA CENTER WEST award for the Bob

Kaufman book I edited (posthumously) called CRANIAL GUITAR (Coffee House

Press).  Bob's book was picked as the best poetry book in the Western United

States last year.  The awards ceremony is at the Biltmore in downtown L.A.

starting 6:30 Tuesday evening.  Supposed to be movie stars reading the

award-winning books.  Sounds like a kick.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:25:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: estate stuff and blah blah

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Get out the blue ribbon folks!

                  (...and apologies in advance now that I see how I did go

on and on! Anyone know the music of Chick Brodsky? He has a brilliant song

about being bored silly by some self-involved person...not me of course!)

 

Attila,

 

        There have been some interesting psots from both sides of the estate

divide, but this is among the best and the current blue medal winner.

 

        ...sorry Gerry, but it all sounds very sane, reasonable and very,

very convincing. The rabidness of your attacks and those of Wallner have

slowly worked to erode my sympathies for "the cause."

 

        I know "rabid" will be seen as a strong  - too strong - word and I

await the spin you will put on it...and the way you will weave it into all

the other "humiliations' of the past estate battles. I use "hmiliations"

because it carries special meaning here in my province of Quebec. The

separatist forces regularly decry the "humiliations" that they have been

subjected to without ever being able to satisfactorily detail who did what

to who and what sort of outcome they hope for.

 

        Sorry for the digression, and perhaps the inept comparison, but

great authorship - greatness in any field - is no surety that one will excel

in other fields of endeavour; your presentation and debate of the issue has

hurt "the cause.'

 

        One of many points I would strenuously argue against: you have said

repeatedly that while you were away from the list the "gang of (pick a

number)" regularly sang the praises of John Sampas and sniped at you; never

happened!! Not in my recollection. Whoever was reporting back to you from

the list was misleading you.

 

        Notwithstanding the estate miasma, I stay on the list because it is

endlessly fascinating and informative. I have a big bin of stuff that I've

saved for reference or have used to fuel my own research in my own areas of

interest. There's stuff in there from Phil Chaput, Gerry Nicosia, Joe Grant,

Jeffrey Weinberg, Levi Asher, Attila Gyenis, Pat Elliot, Bill Morgan, Diane

DuRooy, Marie and Derek and David and Bill Gargan....the list is long - I

just want to stop hearing spite and continue to have fun.

 

        And PLEASE - stop with the smarmy respectfully yours, etc.

 

        I challenge you to grab my interest with something, in the way you

did when you spoke about your father...or about several other topics.

 

        Antoine  (check out my sig file below! That goes for me in spades!)

 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:26:06 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Steal this book

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At 03:03 AM 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote:

>The people who are stealing Kerouac books aren't stealing them to read. They

>are stealing them to resell to used bookstores. It is very hard to find used

>Kerouac used books (since everyone keeps theirs for life).

 

That's proabably a very good point.  I'll bet you are right.  I see few

Kerouac books at used bookstores and it has always been that way.

 

But, I gave away all my kerouac books about 7 years ago.  So now I have only

SF Blues (the little Penguin edition), The Letters and now Some of the

Dharma.  It hinders me here for discussions of the boooks in that although I

have read them and reread them it's been a long time ago now and I don't

have them to look at to refresh my memories and make comments.

 

In other words I am saying not everyone keeps them forever.

 

 

I know that is the

>case in NYC. So I don't think it is the people on this list who are stealing

>them (?or are you). Kerouac books, good as gold.

> 

>someone wrote:

>>> Now I'm hearing that followers of the beat generation are notorious  book

>thieves in some areas.  What does that say about the Beat ethic?  Do any of

>you bookstore employees on this list know of other books and genres that are

>eminently stealable?  I can't believe that in the whole wide world of books,

>only Beat Generation

>topics inspire theft. ..

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:32:13 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: beat websites: updated today

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I noticed this before the first time oyu posted this nice list.

 

There is something strange.

 

These links:

 

The Writer's Gallery =

<A HREF="http://www.onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html">http://www.

onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html</A>

============================================

 

beat generation private chatroom =

<A HREF="http://www.onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html">aol://2719:

2-2-beat%20generation</A>

 

These links to

 

http://www.onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html

 

are to a story I wrote.  I am very pleased to see it here in this list

(twice even) but it doesn't really have anything to do with the Beats except

if you consider eating pancakes beat.

 

Just thought I would point that out.  I link to it from my Kerouac Speaks

page si maybe that's how it got on the list.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:36:10 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

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At 11:48 AM 10/27/97 -0600, you wrote:

>>I think the Florida marlins just won the World seies.  Renteria hit one up

>>the middle in the 11th.

>> 

>>Tony Fernandez was "the goat" (always unfair to call someone the goat to my

>>mind--but they do) was Livan Hernandez the MVP.  This guy is just 22 years

>>old and he had to escape from Cuba (escape--run away--flee) to come to the

>>US and play.

>> 

>>Go figure.

>> 

>>"I love you Miami" is what he shouted.

> 

>Mr. Gallaher,

> 

>After hearing about the game this morning I was really sorry I didn't stop

>work and watch it last night. Hernandez is an incredible baseball player.

>As baeball fans know, Cuba has a reputation for developing outstanding

>baseball players. One ponly has to check the history of how their teams do

>in the Olympics.

> 

>Also, he didn't have to "escape--run away--flee" Cuba to play baseball, he

>had to leave Cuba to become a millionare baseball player.

> 

>I have no problem with that, but there are many who would call him a

>"gusano."

 

What's a "gusano"?

 

 

And he did have to run away.  He left in Mexico when the Cuban team was

playing there.  He did not have permission.  Rene Arocha was the first Cuban

ball player to do that and he literally ran away.

 

>That's unfair  because so many Cubans in the U.S. send money to

>their relatives in Cuba.

> 

 

 

 

>It hasn't been easy on that tiny island with the most powerful nation on

>earth doing everything in it's power--short of invasion and all-out war--to

>break their economic back.

> 

>j grant

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

>                        FREE

>                           at

>                            BookZen

>                        http://www.bookzen.com

>             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:49:08 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Antoine's Blue Ribbon

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Antoine,

 

Thnaks for your thoughtful post on the "estate miasma".  I concurr

completely with your view.  Reasonableness and a quiet, sure tone gain

respect.  Constant aspersions on the motives of others don't.  Like you,

I remember no dirt being slung at Gerry during his abscense. If the

discussion could follow the sort of tone that Attila has used I think we

all would learn more about what the "facts" (if we will ever know them)

are.  More light.  Less heat.

 

 

Antoine Maloney wrote:

> 

> Get out the blue ribbon folks!

 

>         There have been some interesting psots from both sides of the estate

> divide, but this is among the best and the current blue medal winner.

> 

>         ...sorry Gerry, but it (Attilla's post) all sounds very sane,

 reasonable and very,

> very convincing. The rabidness of your attacks and those of Wallner have

> slowly worked to erode my sympathies for "the cause."

 

And Lord knows your signature line goes double for me!

 

J. Stauffer

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:48:38 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Put your glasses on, Antoine, respectfully

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At 01:25 PM 10/27/97 -0500, Antoine Malone wrote:

>        One of many points I would strenuously argue against: you have said

>repeatedly that while you were away from the list the "gang of (pick a

>number)" regularly sang the praises of John Sampas and sniped at you; never

>happened!! Not in my recollection. Whoever was reporting back to you from

>the list was misleading you.

.....

> 

>        And PLEASE - stop with the smarmy respectfully yours, etc.

> 

Dear Antoine,  Oct 27, 1997

        I NEVER said they attacked me while I was off the Beat-List. I did

say they said what a great custodian John Sampas was of the archive (I have

the posts, they were forwarded to me) as well as promoting Sampas-approved

events, like Kerouac Week in Lowell (at which poor Jan remained more than a

ghost).

        I can only say I'm glad lots of people on the list feel differently

than you.  I have received supporting posts from dozens of people during

this latest blitz.  And besides, my all-time hero is not Jack Kerouac but

another Franco-American named Henry David Thoreau, who said, "Any man more

right than his neighbors constitutes a majority of one already."

        As far as "respectfully," my parents taught me to respect everyone,

and when I say it, it's a lot more sincere than Mr. Maher saying "Let's be

friends" and then blasting me in the very next post.

        Respectfully (and not smarmily) yours, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:46:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Why there is no Jack Kerouac Archive to Study

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>Personally I would love to see all the archives in a library at some

>point,

>as I'm sure all of you would but I think anyone would be a fool to only

>get

>one million for it. Gerry, I'm sure John really appreciates all your

>help

>but somehow I don't think he needs you to negotiate a deal with a

>library

>for him. Phil Chaput

 

     Herein, Mr. Chaput, lies the essential problem; "I think anyone

would be a fool to only get one million for it."  Jack, as I can in all

sureness declare, did not write the vast number of books he did that he

might make anyone, with the exclusion of himself, wealthy.  Nor did he

meticulously archive his material so that a profit might be made from

it by Mr. Sampas some 30 years later.  Whether or not the profit

belongs to the Kerouac estate or goes directly into Mr. Sampas' pockets

is irrelevant; money cannot be the determining factor concerning the

archives.  The blatantly simple facts: (1) Jack wants his archives

preserved and accessible, not privately hoarded.  (2) More than one

library is greatly interested in obtaining the archives for such

purposes as Jack intended, libraries willing to pay one million dollars

for said archive, libraries with the funds to properly care for the

archives.  (3) Mr. Sampas, whether legitimately or not as yet to be

determined, has the authority to place such archives in their proper

place, fulfilling Jack's wishes, and making a cool million at the same

time (wherever that million legally becomes distributed).  Now, I think

most folks will agree with me when I say that, to mine eyes, there is

obviously only one thing standing in the way of the correct course of

action: Greed.  A greed manifested by Spite, Jealousy, Vendetta, Anger

at the past and at what one man was not afraid to place in writing

concerning certain persons.  Talk about vanity.  Now you can say I

don't know the severity of what rides on all this politics, or that

it's easy to take on an air of idealism when I'm not the person who has

to make these choices, or stands to make loads of cash.  But, Mr.

Chaput, Mr. Sampas, and others involved, it doesn't take much thinking

to see what needs to and should be done.  Yes, this has all been said

before in one form or another, but the fact remains that the bullshit

continues.  "Gerry Nicosia's lame pursuits are what's holding up the

availabillity of the archives." Bullshit!  Anyone on this list can see

that's as bogus a claim as possible.  Interesting how Mr. Sampas

possesses enough power to instill fear of retribution in so many

people, proof of which can be found in the various exclusions of Jan

from Jack-related events, yet he cannot make available the Kerouac

archives, which he's been trying to do for oh so long, because of Mr.

Nicosia.  Do you or Mr. Sampas actually expect anyone to believe that?

This whole situation has a raunchy taste to it, Phil, very raunchy.

 

 

                              Tyson Ouellette

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:45:05 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      diz'n'bird print for sale

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beat-L'ers

As many of you know, for the last year i have been making linoleum block

prints which i have distributed all over the net (some of which are slated

for possible publication from _bulldog breath_, _william s. burroughs:

calling the toads_, _william s. borroughs: ghost of steel_, and _beat

scene_. also - i recently completed a print which was used for the

promotional poster of the RANT in louisville, KY reading organized by

Bohemian Ink and Published in Heaven Press.) also - several readers of

beat-L have my prints (off the top of my head i can think of rod anstee,

marie countryman, gerry nicosia, ron whitehead, antoine maloney, and

around a dozen others i think).

        I have recently finished a new print of dizzy gillespie and

charlie parker entitled "diz'n'bird", in a limited edition of 4

prints (with 1 Artist's Proof) with an image size of approx. 6"x6" and

printed on japanese woodblock paper.

        I am really happy with these prints and i will not be reprinting

them either for a new edition or for publication (once they're gone,

they're gone)

         I am offering these prints for sale at $12.00 US each (including

shipping & postage) if anyone is interested.

        Please let me know if any of you are interested in purchasing one

of these prints, its a work that im proud of and im sure you would like as

well.

        yrs

        derek beaulieu

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:57:36 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      DISCARDing books

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at my library, they sell all the books that have never been checked

out in a few years for about a buck. i found some pretty good stuff

there, and some crap.but they donot have discard stamps on them. is

jacksonville just behind or is DISCARDing stamping a college library

thing?

randy

 

> As a librarian, I know that we (here at Kenyon college) stamp "DISCARD" on any

> old library books we get rid of. If you want to boycott stolen books , you

> might avoid ex-library copies that do not have a DISCARD stamp in them. I

 think

> this practice is fairly common. Of course I say this after having bought a

 nice

> ex-library copy of BIG SUR a few years ago (and also and ex-lib copy of

 Phillip

> K. Dick's DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP). As any devout buyer of used

> books knows, ex-library copies are not worth much in the investment dept. They

> generally have the same statues as "READING COPIES." Once a book has been

> stamped and bar coded, the price goes down. So buyer beware, choose as yer

> concious directs!

> 

> dave B.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:47:45 -0800

Reply-To:     balkose@egenet.com.tr

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Murat Balkose <balkose@EGENET.COM.TR>

Subject:      i can't get any messages.

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i cannot get any messages for more than 2 days.

 

 Yrs

 

 Murat Balkose

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:10:26 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

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On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:00 -0400 Icychick34@AOL.COM wrote:

 

> From: Icychick34@AOL.COM> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:00

-0400

> Subject: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> hello,

> let me start off by saying that my name is kristina and i

am a 19 year old in

> need of help. i am writing a research paper about William

S. Burroughs novel j

> unky. i was wondering if you could help me by finding or

offering critical

> opinions of the book for me as soon as possible. anything

you could come up

> with would be greatly appreciated. thank you.

> sincerely,

> kristina ames              e-mail: ICYCHICK34@SOL.COM

 

I don't think kristina is on the list, since I directed her

to it for more help on her question (she found my web page

or something), so if you're replying it might be a good idea

to mail me directly.  ALternatively, she might be on the

list, and I might have just deleted her subscribe message

with all the bullshit estate state (sorry, no offense,

please don't kill me, but it's BORING) (Tom - not sounding

like a ten year old, really....)

It's Monday night!  And it's... tedious.  Two more hours and

I can go to the pub... oh the joy...

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:42:27 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Quickie for Attila

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At 03:03 AM 10/27/97 -0500, Attila Gyenis wrote:

> 

>I haven't lived near Lowell for over a year and a half (I used to live in New

>Hampshire). Actually, we are practically neighbors since I am now living here

>in northern California (Eureka).

 

Hi, Neighbor!   Oct 27, 1997

        One quick question.  You claim you've been away from Lowell for a

year and a half.  Yet I just received the DHARMA BEAT, which you edit and

publish, and the address of the magazine is Lowell, Massachusetts.  Can you

explain this discrepancy?

        Also, I sent you several corrections of glaring errors in your

latest issue, such as the fact that Jack never saw Neal while living in

Berkeley in 1957.  Did you get those corrections?  I sent them to your

Lowell address.  If not, where should I send them?

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:02:08 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Re: voices..Harry Smith.

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     Marie and all,

 

     sorry I didn't post yet, but I just checked my email today. (all 190 posts)

 

     Ever since stumbling on Harry Smith's work at Naropa in 1993. I have

     awaited the reissue of his anthology. I was glad to find that it has been

     reissued with all of Harry's original artwork/notes. The magnitude of this

     anthology cannot not be understated. The music is haunting. An america

     already gone. These are the real voices of America. One can only imagine

     what it would have been to hear these voices in 1952 at the height of the

     McCarthy era.

 

     I have just barely skimmed the surface of this collection. I think that

     this would be a great thread on this list if others who have this set could

     comment. Harry Smith's films are amazing as well, anyone out there famliar

     with the films too?

 

     In regards to Jym's comment I have to say that I love both Jazz and folk.

     In fact, they are so close that they are woven together in my mind.

     Harry used to paint following the music of Dizzy or others. Every stroke in

     his painting corresponded to a note in the music.

 

     on beyond the on-beyond

 

     More soon

 

     Sean D. Young

 

     syoung@dsw.com

 

 

For info on this mind-boggling collection of American music, go to

 

http://www.si.edu/organiza/offices/folklife/folkways/harry/hatext.htm

 

This anthology is so rich that I've been listening to it since August and have

only gotten through the first four of six CD's.

 

Although I am a Beat fan of many years' standing, I am definitely not a jazz

fan...just an old folkie at heart...always have been, always will be. No

apologies, no regrets.

 

Regards,

 

Jym

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: i'm beginning to hear voices..

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    10/24/97 9:10 PM

 

 

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:39:28 -0600 Sean Young said: >     Marie,

> 

>     same plane.

>     dylan CD all around.

>     alternating with Harry Smith's folk anthology. >

>     many voices. lost times

> 

>     AH

> 

>     SDY

> 

> 

>______________________________ Reply Separator

>_________________________________

>Subject: i'm beginning to hear voices..

>Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

>Date:    10/24/97 1:23 PM

> 

> 

>...and there's no one around...

>WHO IS BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY CD PLAYER???

> 

>thank the gods and goddesses:

>all and whoever.

> 

>the best matured combo of blonde on blonde, new morining and blood on

>the tracks.

>i'm in dylan heaven....

>mc

 

 Sean, can you post specifics on Harry Smith's anthology?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:00:53 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      help w/ non-beat book search please!

Mime-Version: 1.0

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hey, its just me

i was wondering if you beat folks and bookselllers might be able to help

me on a search. im looking for copies of the following books by mary

Shelley (y'know the author of _frankenstein_) and i was wondering if you

all could help. im looking for them as a collector, but rather a xmas

present as my girlfriend is doing her master's thesis on shelley and needs

to find copies of the following:

_The fortunes of perkin warbeck_

_travel writing_

_rambles in germany and italy_ (very important)

_falkner; a novel_

can any of you keep yr eyes out for these books and let me know if you

find them in yr travels. i would really like to get a hold of them (if

they arent too expensive) and im sure we can work something out (i'll pay,

of course, for all postage and cost...)

thanks for yr help

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:28:48 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: help w/ non-beat book search please!

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> 

> hey, its just me

> i was wondering if you beat folks and bookselllers might be able to help

> me on a search. im looking for copies of the following books by mary

> Shelley (y'know the author of _frankenstein_) and i was wondering if you

> all could help. im looking for them as a collector, but rather a xmas

> present as my girlfriend is doing her master's thesis on shelley and needs

> to find copies of the following:

> _The fortunes of perkin warbeck_

> _travel writing_

> _rambles in germany and italy_ (very important)

> _falkner; a novel_

> can any of you keep yr eyes out for these books and let me know if you

> find them in yr travels. i would really like to get a hold of them (if

> they arent too expensive) and im sure we can work something out (i'll pay,

> of course, for all postage and cost...)

> thanks for yr help

> yrs

> derek

 

http://www.bibliofind.com/

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:51:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Why there is no Jack Kerouac Archive to Study

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>This whole situation has a raunchy taste to it, Phil, very raunchy.

> 

> 

>                              Tyson Ouellette

>What's been in your mouth?

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:54:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Why there is no Jack Kerouac Archive to Study

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I have one question, while the archives in the NY Public Library are not

"all" the archives, neverthess they are there...who, amongst the top ten

complainers on this list has actually used anything there for research and

if so...what have you done? P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:20:37 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: help w/ non-beat book search please!

In-Reply-To:  <3454F980.37B7@midusa.net>

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race

thanks for advice re: bibliofind

BUT i've already checked amazon, bibliofind, nansearch and local

bookstores' books in print - thats why im turning to the shelves and

eagle-eyes of fellow beat members to keep an eye out

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:29:23 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: diz'n'bird print for sale

MIME-Version: 1.0

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i would like to tell all here that i am the proud curator of many many of

derek's prints (one of which will be representing a 'slice' of me in the big

boho book.)

exquisite detail, lots of love of the process and obvious love of subject.

derek, i gotta save for california next month, but i want to let everyone

know that you are the primo.

mc

 

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

 

> beat-L'ers

> As many of you know, for the last year i have been making linoleum block

> prints which i have distributed all over the net (some of which are slated

> for possible publication from _bulldog breath_, _william s. burroughs:

> calling the toads_, _william s. borroughs: ghost of steel_, and _beat

> scene_. also - i recently completed a print which was used for the

> promotional poster of the RANT in louisville, KY reading organized by

> Bohemian Ink and Published in Heaven Press.) also - several readers of

> beat-L have my prints (off the top of my head i can think of rod anstee,

> marie countryman, gerry nicosia, ron whitehead, antoine maloney, and

> around a dozen others i think).

>         I have recently finished a new print of dizzy gillespie and

> charlie parker entitled "diz'n'bird", in a limited edition of 4

> prints (with 1 Artist's Proof) with an image size of approx. 6"x6" and

> printed on japanese woodblock paper.

>         I am really happy with these prints and i will not be reprinting

> them either for a new edition or for publication (once they're gone,

> they're gone)

>          I am offering these prints for sale at $12.00 US each (including

> shipping & postage) if anyone is interested.

>         Please let me know if any of you are interested in purchasing one

> of these prints, its a work that im proud of and im sure you would like as

> well.

>         yrs

>         derek beaulieu

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:34:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: help w/ non-beat book search please!

 

Derek-- have you tried these guys? http://www.abebooks.com/

 

 <A HREF="http://www.abebooks.com/">The Advanced Book Exchange Home Page</A>

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:36:41 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Gang of One

 

once again, you blow my fucking mind!!!  be my Moloch!! <BG>

 

love you,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of RACE ---

Sent:   Sunday, October 26, 1997 11:13 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        The Gang of One

 

I saw an enlightening painting on North Poplar Street in Wichita between

Douglas and Second this weekend.  It was titled "A Gang of One".

 

I returned to a digest that included a diatribe or polemic i'm not

certain which concerning the anti-Johnsonishtistic cliqueishness of

elements on the Beat-L "ganging" up on folks and throwing them to the

wolves.  And i thought -- oh yeah i think i did body slam that guy once

or twice.  Sad that he took it as hateful.  Oh well.

 

And then of course the gang doesn't ever argue within itself.  We never

disagree amongst ourselves -- we only say GO GO GO and AH! and this and

that wondering who can pat the other's backs fastest and bestest and we

do this while mentioning coded messages of the music which we're

listening to while writing (for example i'm listening to Howl in my left

ear and a learning channel show on apparitions in my right at this

moment) and the coded soundtrack changes the whole meaning of the whole

thing to everyone here and there and everywhere that is IN the gang but

is intended obviously as a stonewalling of those who are out.  Like my

introduction to the Beat-L when I was so fucking beat that in reading

Rinaldo on Howl and the Declaration of Independence pulled Carl Becker's

historical interpretation off the bookshelf and began to scan it and

told people that i was reading it (and the author wasn't even BEAT

egad)  and of course i've committed a crime against humanity here and

there in my days on and off list.  I've burned a book or two and torn

many apart to place them in different order in journals -- tossing on a

title and giving it to my shrink.  And i've liberated more books than

anyone on this list in my youth and what am i to do about it.  i ain't

much of a liberator these days.  I'm much more of a donater taking a box

of books to charities usually a couple times a month.  But how long will

this bardonic purgatorgistic mark of theft hang on my brow like Cain

perhaps I can spawn an entire race and will this race be as EVIL as

America as the world as Moloch or Angels?  I have no clue

 

And who do I see to get into this Gang anyway.  How many in this Gang?

What are their names what are their names do you know the folks on the

good Reuben James?  I must wonder now and then but I am told that if one

merely mails to listserv address the word REVIEW the list of the

co-conspirators will flash on my screen and i can mark down which are on

the side of grace and which on the side of Moloch and who live in Kansas

or have been through Wichita and driven down Poplar Street is obviously

something of a Calvinistic notion of the "elect" in this Gang of One.

 

But what was I saying?

 

Oh yes.  I drove South.  I saw.  I visited.  I followed an enchanting

Irish pied piper keyboard from oldtown to the Bill Garrison blues

society convention birthday party an eclectic Ericksonian halloween bash

and a rendition of "All of Me" in which we all decided we were only half

conscious so began again singing "Half of me, why not take Half of Me"

and then walked again into a dark wichita night and the Gang of One

painting lead me here and there and to the Knights Motel and back across

to Poplar and to the U. and to Southeast Asia foreign policy concerning

Burmese/Myanamaristic heroin dealing.  And return to a diatribe against

my one nation under God and heard a cat say this morning "I invent more

Gods in one day than you will believe in in a lifetime" and so I

understand but then again after about two or three questions from moi he

did admit that he also "destroys more Gods in one day than you will

believe in in a lifetime" and this caveman's eyes sparkle in a cricket

habitat as he says these things and so do i invent or do i destroy and

am I america or is america some evil demon someone ELSE has created and

that i will sit around and whine about in my youth.  Of course it is,

because we all go through those days ... bad hair days in which the

world is our oyster and the troubles are all caused by them.  By the

gang.  That damn clique on the Beat-L -- they're probably responsible

for the tensions in Kashmir afterall aren't they.  And I am A GANG OF

ONE!  but it is pretty fucking big ONE if you get the drift.  ONE nation

under GOD (pick a god any god) INDIVISABLE ah there's the rub.  At least

to those who ain't in Kansas cuz ya gotta know that whether you pick

Lecompton or Topeka the crystal on my bathroom shelf still shines the

same mystic colours.  Why divide?  Why not belive in indivisibility?

Because I am not me?  You are not me.  I am not in the Gang.  The Gang

is in the Gang and since I'm outside of the Gang I must not be in the

Gang and I am outside the Gang because I ain't no I yet I'm sitting

around saying YOU YOU YOU it's all your fault.  Well, son, find a little

Moloch in yourself ... smile at it sing Holy Holy Holy to your Moloch

admit it and get over it and become a Gang of One and then look around

at the Gangs of Gangs that Mother of All Gangs that you feared most

(whichever it happens to be this minute) and you'll say -- Oh it's you!

Why didn't you tell me were falling into that old Steppenwolf spiritual

trip again!!! <grin>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:45:35 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: Antoine's Blue Ribbon

In-Reply-To:  <3454E224.4A93@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Reasonableness and a quiet, sure tone gain respect.  Constant aspersions

> on the motives of others don't.

 

Much truth there, James, but we must also bear in mind that there is a

time to attack, in all righteous wrath.

 

I cannot judge the merits of either side in the Estate debate, but Gerry's

indignation and keep-on-coming energy wins my respect. And if the comments

re. motives are accurate, I want to hear those aspersions too.

 

The debate on the propriety of Beat-L as battlefield strikes me as a

Mahayana/Hinayana, or Rinzai/Soto conflict. I've always gravitated to

Mahayana Buddhism (and Rinzai Zen), so I say let's have the leviathans

duke it out. Hurrah for both sides!

 

 

 

Michael

 

(slipping a covert horseshoe into Gerry's glove)

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

           "Fancy titles and nightshirts are a waste of time."

 

    - "Alfred" [a California hotelier - search Yahoo! under 'Alfred']

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:54:21 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award

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cranial guitar is a wonder , a pleasure, a shock a surprise and i love the

intro..

have a good time gerry, relax and enjoy yourself. you've done a lot of

wonderful work, in my eyes, mem babe, kaufman (the thought of his friends

chasing after his napkins, his howling his poems in the street his anarchist

heart.

i am so glad you took the time to gather them up and put them out into the

world for us all

mc

 

 

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

 

> Hi to everyone!       Oct 27, 1997

>         Just wanted to explain that I'll be scarce for a few days since I'm

> headed down to L.A. to collect the PEN USA CENTER WEST award for the Bob

> Kaufman book I edited (posthumously) called CRANIAL GUITAR (Coffee House

> Press).  Bob's book was picked as the best poetry book in the Western United

> States last year.  The awards ceremony is at the Biltmore in downtown L.A.

> starting 6:30 Tuesday evening.  Supposed to be movie stars reading the

> award-winning books.  Sounds like a kick.

>         Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:58:10 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Steal this book

In-Reply-To:  <971027030335_558939607@emout03.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On a related subject, has anybody out there found a Kerouac early edition

paperback in a thrift store? I had a fleeting vision recently about

finding a 1st edition copy of OTR in a thrift store and have been

extra-throrough when going through the book section.  Nothing so far, but

I have found a few neato 50's/60's Ace science fiction paperbacks which

are worth it for the cover art alone!

Anne Sneddon

 

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Attila Gyenis wrote:

 

> The people who are stealing Kerouac books aren't stealing them to read. They

> are stealing them to resell to used bookstores. It is very hard to find used

> Kerouac used books (since everyone keeps theirs for life). I know that is the

> case in NYC. So I don't think it is the people on this list who are stealing

> them (?or are you). Kerouac books, good as gold.

> 

> someone wrote:

> >> Now I'm hearing that followers of the beat generation are notorious  book

> thieves in some areas.  What does that say about the Beat ethic?  Do any of

> you bookstore employees on this list know of other books and genres that are

> eminently stealable?  I can't believe that in the whole wide world of books,

> only Beat Generation

> topics inspire theft. ..

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:18:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: estate stuff and blah blah

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

> 

>Dear Attila,  Oct 27, 1997

>        Jack sure as hell didn't intend the Sampases to take care of his

>archive.  He wrote to Paul Blake, Jr. on October 20, 1997, just before he

>fell ill: "I just wanted to leave my 'estate' (which is what it really is)

>to someone directly connected with the last remaining drop of my direct

>blood line, which is, me sister Carolyn, your Mom, and not to leave a

>dingblasted f------g think to my wife's one hundred Greek relatives."

 

Since this seems to be the one quote used incessantly, I quote from a

notebook of Jack Kerouac's which, in my opinion, strikes me as being just as

valid as anything mentioned from you in the same vein....

 

  "may God make me a millionaire someday so I wont lend or leave anything to

any Blakes."

 

   The truth is this, that while some may concur with Mr. Nicosia's

reasoning about what Jack Kerouac may or may not have written (or to be

decreed as testament or will),it is not the only thing that exists that

proves his point solidly. We know Kerouac as contradictory and in his later

years, embittered, but we cannot surmise the intentions of his estate by

what he may or may not have mentioned in a letter. The fact is this, that

Gabrielle Kerouac inherited the estate and from there, Stella Sampas.The

Sampas Family controls the estate with John Sampas appointed as literary

representative. The nimble thread of evidence that Gerry Nicosia balances

upon for his case hinges on opinion, not Jack Kerouac's intentions. Hence,

the pondering about forgery, the only thing that matters here for Mr.

Nicosia, is the only thing he has to go on. It is easy to tread on the

intentions of the dead, Jack, Gabrielle, Stella or otherwise...Paul of

TKQ....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:13:00 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: jack

Comments: To: First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <971024195245_1335732844@emout09.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, First_Name Last_Name wrote:

 

> 

> if i were a dead icon, i'd be pissed over such infantile arguing, no matter

> how much it's in the name of jack or his estate or literature or any

> reason.....

> 

> 

> brian

> 

Sorry, I couldn't help laughing when I saw this.

Personally, when I become a dead icon I intend not to get pissed over

anything.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:08:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: help w/ non-beat book search please!

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Derek and others,

 

    Online there is a site called "The Advanced Book Exchange."  They bring

together hundreds of independent booksellers all over the states into one

easily searchable site.  I've found quite a few hard to find books there,

it's worth a look...  sorry I don't have the URL, try Yahoo!, I think it's

an easy to find site.

 

Bruce

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Derek A. Beaulieu <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, October 27, 1997 4:37 PM

Subject: Re: help w/ non-beat book search please!

 

 

>race

>thanks for advice re: bibliofind

>BUT i've already checked amazon, bibliofind, nansearch and local

>bookstores' books in print - thats why im turning to the shelves and

>eagle-eyes of fellow beat members to keep an eye out

>yrs

>derek

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:37:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:54 PM 10/27/97 +0000, you wrote:

>cranial guitar is a wonder , a pleasure, a shock a surprise and i love the

>intro..

>have a good time gerry, relax and enjoy yourself. you've done a lot of

>wonderful work, in my eyes, mem babe, kaufman (the thought of his friends

>chasing after his napkins, his howling his poems in the street his anarchist

>heart.

>i am so glad you took the time to gather them up and put them out into the

>world for us all

>mc

> 

> 

>Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> 

>> Hi to everyone!       Oct 27, 1997

>>         Just wanted to explain that I'll be scarce for a few days since I'm

>> headed down to L.A. to collect the PEN USA CENTER WEST award for the Bob

>> Kaufman book I edited (posthumously) called CRANIAL GUITAR (Coffee House

>> Press).  Bob's book was picked as the best poetry book in the Western United

>> States last year.  The awards ceremony is at the Biltmore in downtown L.A.

>> starting 6:30 Tuesday evening.  Supposed to be movie stars reading the

>> award-winning books.  Sounds like a kick.

>>         Best always, Gerry Nicosia

>Cheers and congrats to Gerry, I know how hard it is to garnish such praise

when

THE RECIPIENT IS ON THE SAME BOARD THAT DEALT OUT THE AWARD (PEN WEST)!!!!!

Paul....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:19:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> 

> At 05:54 PM 10/27/97 +0000, you wrote:

> >cranial guitar is a wonder , a pleasure, a shock a surprise and i love the

> >intro..

> >have a good time gerry, relax and enjoy yourself. you've done a lot of

> >wonderful work, in my eyes, mem babe, kaufman (the thought of his friends

> >chasing after his napkins, his howling his poems in the street his anarchist

> >heart.

> >i am so glad you took the time to gather them up and put them out into the

> >world for us all

> >mc

> >

> >

> >Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> >

> >> Hi to everyone!       Oct 27, 1997

> >>         Just wanted to explain that I'll be scarce for a few days since I'm

> >> headed down to L.A. to collect the PEN USA CENTER WEST award for the Bob

> >> Kaufman book I edited (posthumously) called CRANIAL GUITAR (Coffee House

> >> Press).  Bob's book was picked as the best poetry book in the Western

 United

> >> States last year.  The awards ceremony is at the Biltmore in downtown L.A.

> >> starting 6:30 Tuesday evening.  Supposed to be movie stars reading the

> >> award-winning books.  Sounds like a kick.

> >>         Best always, Gerry Nicosia

> >Cheers and congrats to Gerry, I know how hard it is to garnish such praise

> when

> THE RECIPIENT IS ON THE SAME BOARD THAT DEALT OUT THE AWARD (PEN WEST)!!!!!

> Paul....

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

technical foul :)

 

the Committee

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:36:07 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: replace country with world?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> > Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

> > I can be pissed at  lack of compassion and at mistreatment of people

> > anywhere in the world. Screw you suggests to me not a call for a

> > specific

> > action but an outraged outcry at uncalled for meanness. I don't think

> > it is

> > fair to single out the United States as being a bad apple among

> > nations,

> > when in my opinion it is qactually better than most.

> 

> Leon,

> 

> I have to agree with you about the replacing of America with world,

> because the kind of meanness you suggest is in effect widespread as

> "man's inhumanity to man."  I read Keith's screw you America to mean he

> wants nothing to do with what America is, but whether one likes it or

> not, whether we feel we are in or out of the mainstream, we are all a

> part of America unless we chose to leave it.  I would rather see the

> screw you applied more appropriately to specific actions and not the

> country as a whole, much like what Ginsberg was doing when he wrote "Go

> fuck yourself with your atom bomb."

> DC

 

of course the alternative is Bob Dylan's speech receiving a civil

liberties award when he said something to the affect of "we all have a

little bit of Lee Harvey Oswald in us."

 

tangentially, the ancient egyptians included a confession of the crimes

they had not committed in their lifetime in their final spiritual

cleansings before death -- perhaps to cleanse any psychic complicity --

i really don't know.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:34:35 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: How about this topic, discuss it amongst yourselves.

In-Reply-To:  <344EAEBE.18DC6FD@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Just a quick post from a lurker.  Have you noticed that in both instances

(traffic and email) the rage comes about (maybe) due to the fact that

we are, to a degree, anonymous? I mean, I for one, have said things via

computer that I wouldn't say if face to face with someone...just a

thought.

 

Jorgiana

 

 

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> I believe we should open a new thread.  It is on the internet/www

> phenomenon.  It should be a comparison about how very intelligent people

> can lose all sense of perspective when one of two things happens, they

> get cut off in traffic (or someone drives into a parking place they have

> been waiting on) or when they get mad or emotional about a thread on a

> mail list.  I believe these ideas are comparable and that they can lead

> us directly to the collective unconscious mind and how it affects mail

> list behavior and traffic.  For instance, we could delve into how do you

> "feel" someone staring at you at a trafffic light, and how do you know

> when someone has "insulted" you in a fashion that will lead to a duel by

> making a post to the mail list.

> 

> I think that we could even discuss the quality of the midi file of "Take

> Five" on Keith's site.  Is it real jass, or is it Sear's jazz?  What

> would Jack think about it?

> 

> Well the list of topics is endless and I really did suggest a collection

> or works, Big Sky Mind for discussion.  Is anyone interested?  I suggest

> we start with Harold Norse's poems as they are good and there are only

> about three.

> 

> Just a thought.

> 

> --

> 

> Peace,

> 

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:46:27 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: hi cathie!

In-Reply-To:  <19971023.110740.12766.0.kokupokit@juno.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

RE: Pull my Daisy.

 

 

Apologizing in advance if someone already answered this...I have 400

messages today and I'm only on 90. A few months back I had trouble finding

a video until someone suggested Home FilmFestival 800-258-3456.  Callthem

and see if it helps.

 

Jorgiana

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:55:37 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Attila's Blue Ribbon

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:49 AM 10/27/97 -0800, you wrote:

James Stauffer wrote:

 

>Thnaks for your thoughtful post on the "estate miasma".  I concurr

>completely with your view.  Reasonableness and a quiet, sure tone gain

>respect.  Constant aspersions on the motives of others don't.  Like you,

>I remember no dirt being slung at Gerry during his abscense. If the

>discussion could follow the sort of tone that Attila has used I think we

>all would learn more about what the "facts" (if we will ever know them)

>are.  More light.  Less heat.

> 

 

Sweet Baby James,

        Your Blue Ribbon Boy (Attila) has won helluva walk to his post

office box in Lowell, Massachusetts, from his home in Eureka, California.  I

think he ought to get the Blue Ribbon for that alone.

        P.S. James Taylor, ex-junkie, definitely is Beat.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:09:53 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:37 PM 10/27/97 -0500, Paul Maher wrote:

>THE RECIPIENT IS ON THE SAME BOARD THAT DEALT OUT THE AWARD (PEN WEST)!!!!!

 

 

Once again, Mr. Maher opens his mouth before he knows whereof he speaks.

The board in LA (I'm in San Francisco) selects an awards committee, and the

awards committee selects three prominent individuals in each catagory to

pick the award.  This year, the poetry award was judged by Lorna Dee

Cervantes, Francis Phillips, and Louis MacAdams.  I have never met Ms.

Cervantes and Ms. (Mr.?) Phillips.  Mr. MacAdams I met once at a Kerouac

festival several years ago, and have not had any communication with him since.

        The Pen West award, by the way, was mentioned by PUblishers Weekly

as one of the most prestigious and significant awards in the country.

        --Gerald Nicosia (targeted for slander by-------?)

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:19:29 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Gerry,

 

An award Bob richly deserved.  May it be some assistance to Eileen.

 

Don't remember the PEN crew paying much attention to Kaufman when he was

among us.

 

J. Stauffer

"Sweet Baby James" to you.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:28:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award

 

In a message dated 10/27/97 3:26:19 PM, you wrote:

 

<<>Cheers and congrats to Gerry, I know how hard it is to garnish such praise

when

THE RECIPIENT IS ON THE SAME BOARD THAT DEALT OUT THE AWARD (PEN WEST)!!!!!

Paul....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau>>

 

Dear Beat List,

 

I had the pleasure of speaking with Elaine Kaufman (Bob's Widow)

at the Six Gallery memorial reading, held recently in San Francisco.

She was so proud of CRANIAL GUITAR being chosen for the Pen West Award.

Ms. Kaufman was very excited about going to LA for the awards ceremony,

and that after all these years Bob was getting some long overdue praise.

I for one love his poetry. Best Wishes to Elaine and Gerry and

congratulations

on the award.

 

yrs

Gary Mex Glazner

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:06:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 03:09 PM 10/27/97 -0800, you wrote:

>At 05:37 PM 10/27/97 -0500, Paul Maher wrote:

>>THE RECIPIENT IS ON THE SAME BOARD THAT DEALT OUT THE AWARD (PEN WEST)!!!!!

> 

> 

>Once again, Mr. Maher opens his mouth before he knows whereof he speaks.

>The board in LA (I'm in San Francisco) selects an awards committee, and the

>awards committee selects three prominent individuals in each catagory to

>pick the award.  This year, the poetry award was judged by Lorna Dee

>Cervantes, Francis Phillips, and Louis MacAdams.  I have never met Ms.

>Cervantes and Ms. (Mr.?) Phillips.  Mr. MacAdams I met once at a Kerouac

>festival several years ago, and have not had any communication with him since.

>        The Pen West award, by the way, was mentioned by PUblishers Weekly

>as one of the most prestigious and significant awards in the country.

>        --Gerald Nicosia (targeted for slander by-------?)

>iF I am wrong then I apologize profusely......Paul of TKQ. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:00:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: diz'n'bird print for sale

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Derek,

 

        Here's hoping that there's one left...is there?

 

                Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:52:15 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i think this is a post about the world series, there is no place safe.

tell me baseball is beat because jack loved it. amerika spends its wad

on sports, little boy elbows gone at 12, parents calling 8 year old

rivals little bastards, money money money and of course drinking.

 

Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> I think the Florida marlins just won the World seies.  Renteria hit one up

> the middle in the 11th.

> 

> Tony Fernandez was "the goat" (always unfair to call someone the goat to my

> mind--but they do) was Livan Hernandez the MVP.  This guy is just 22 years

> old and he had to escape from Cuba (escape--run away--flee) to come to the

> US and play.

> 

> Go figure.

> 

> "I love you Miami" is what he shouted.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:02:27 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Why there is no Jack Kerouac Archive to Study

In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:54:10 -0500 from

              <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

 

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:54:10 -0500 Paul A. Maher Jr. said:

>I have one question, while the archives in the NY Public Library are not

>"all" the archives, neverthess they are there...who, amongst the top ten

>complainers on this list has actually used anything there for research and

>if so...what have you done? P.

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

 

 Not that I'm in the top ten complainers, but I have used some of the Kerouac m

aterials in the Berg Collection -- the notebooks for "The Beat Generation."  Th

is was probably in the middle 1980s, however, before the arrival of the items d

dposited by Mr. Sampas.  I did enjoy the exhibit a few years ago.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:10:35 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:52 PM 10/27/97 -0600, you wrote:

>i think this is a post about the world series, there is no place safe.

>tell me baseball is beat because jack loved it. amerika spends its wad

>on sports, little boy elbows gone at 12, parents calling 8 year old

>rivals little bastards, money money money and of course drinking.

 

 

Did you ever see Pull My daisy?  "Is baseball holy?" is one of the questions

about holiness they were asking the priest.

 

Dr. Sax has great baseball stuff.  I saw an anthology of baseball fiction

once in the sports section of a bookstore and lo and behold a section of Dr.

Sax was included.

 

As I recall Scotty Boldieu (so named because of his stinginess in eating his

candy bars) was the ace of the Dracut Tigers.

 

 

> 

>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>> 

>> I think the Florida marlins just won the World seies.  Renteria hit one up

>> the middle in the 11th.

>> 

>> Tony Fernandez was "the goat" (always unfair to call someone the goat to my

>> mind--but they do) was Livan Hernandez the MVP.  This guy is just 22 years

>> old and he had to escape from Cuba (escape--run away--flee) to come to the

>> US and play.

>> 

>> Go figure.

>> 

>> "I love you Miami" is what he shouted.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:14:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Leavng the list

Comments: To: rodmacy@IQUEST.NET

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Dear Eric,

 

I don't remember creating a laugh at your expense.  I'm sorry

though, if it hurt.  I've been so bruised on the newsgroups

that I've lost most of my feelings and say anything that comes

to mind, sometimes, but not with a view toward injuring anyone.

 

I hold many of the same views you do about this list.  I mostly

contribute nothing, but comment occasionally on what I read.  I

don't mean any harm.  I'm sort of put off by all the worshipping

of OTR, Kerouac, Burroughs, etc.  I don't worship any of these

dead white guys.  I'm irreverent about the Beat legacy.  Its now

like any other thoroughly accepted cultural "content."  For sale

at the highest price possible.  I don't bitch about the hawking of

books and t-shirts because I don't care that the Beats have become

part of the cultural wallpaper.  I think you're alright and I don't

think you should take what you read here so seriously.

 

Come back to the Five and Dime, Eric!

 

Mike Rice

 

At 02:32 AM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote:

>You know, I agree with Richard Wallner.  There is a clique mentality on

>this list and if you're not a part of it, you're screwed.  Every time

>I've posted here I've been dissed and cut down.  I'm not just another

>ignorant college student bumbling my way through a paper.  Yeah, I gotta

>write a paper on Kerouac and Burroughs, but I came here far before I

>knew I'd ever write about those guys.  I fell in love with the

>literature and the lives of those behind it.  It's tough to find Beat

>references and literature outside of pedestrian criticism and

>lightweight works on the Beats as a collective.  I thought this list

>would be a repository of great ideas and I could offer some

>interpretations of Beat works that would drum up some new angles I'd

>never considered.  But after my first couple of posts I realized -

>"flame on!" - I was dead here.  I stuck around, hoping it would get a

>little better, then the estate battle broke out and I realized tensions

>would never ease.  The camps were divided and God forbid you fell

>anywhere between them.  Then I found one of my posts quoted with Mike

>Rice's "funny" dis of my post included for good humiliatory pleasure.

>That's the last straw for me.  I'm the butt of jokes and ridicule every

>single day at my university - I'm ostracized and criticized at every

>turn.  Everyone either hates me, is afriad of me or thinks I am an ass.

>I don't need that popping up in my mailbox at home too.  See ya later

>and thanx for everything.  Maybe I'll be back one day . . .

> 

>Eric "Moose" Macy

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:07:35 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> THE RECIPIENT IS ON THE SAME BOARD THAT DEALT OUT THE AWARD (PEN WEST)!!!!!

> Paul....

now if i say high tall this makes you look my sister will chide me for

relating size to honor.  but how about giving the small petty creepy

remarks a rest.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:32:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Ted Jones

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Does anyone know anything about this writer/poet?  All I've go is what

little I've picked up (encouraged by Ginsberg, started Rent-A-Beatnik).

After searching all the library systems in the state, I found one

collection of his work.  Does anyone know where I could find some good

background info?  The resources here are limited (as one can tell from the

above statement).  If anyone knows of an anthology or article or book with

some info on this guy I could be pointed toward I'd be eternally grateful.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:32:41 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award

 

Paul - that was below the belt and quite crude

sherri----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Paul A. Maher Jr.

Sent:   Monday, October 27, 1997 2:37 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Bob Kaufman Award

 

At 05:54 PM 10/27/97 +0000, you wrote:

>cranial guitar is a wonder , a pleasure, a shock a surprise and i love the

>intro..

>have a good time gerry, relax and enjoy yourself. you've done a lot of

>wonderful work, in my eyes, mem babe, kaufman (the thought of his friends

>chasing after his napkins, his howling his poems in the street his anarchist

>heart.

>i am so glad you took the time to gather them up and put them out into the

>world for us all

>mc

> 

> 

>Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> 

>> Hi to everyone!       Oct 27, 1997

>>         Just wanted to explain that I'll be scarce for a few days since I'm

>> headed down to L.A. to collect the PEN USA CENTER WEST award for the Bob

>> Kaufman book I edited (posthumously) called CRANIAL GUITAR (Coffee House

>> Press).  Bob's book was picked as the best poetry book in the Western

United

>> States last year.  The awards ceremony is at the Biltmore in downtown L.A.

>> starting 6:30 Tuesday evening.  Supposed to be movie stars reading the

>> award-winning books.  Sounds like a kick.

>>         Best always, Gerry Nicosia

>Cheers and congrats to Gerry, I know how hard it is to garnish such praise

when

THE RECIPIENT IS ON THE SAME BOARD THAT DEALT OUT THE AWARD (PEN WEST)!!!!!

Paul....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:38:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Steal this book

 

i found two copies of Maggie Cassidy 1st edition at a place called Manny's,

an art supply/used book store in New Paltz New York.   and the price i

paid...12 cents each.  yes...that is right...12 cents each.  this was in

1976.

 

john j dorfner

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:40:47 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      wichita and soul coughing

Comments: cc: race@midusa.net

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> i wasn't going to head to wichita cuz my step-dad is in the hosptial but

> i'm going to shift gears and leave him to the doctors and head down to

> see Wichita and visit Pat O'Connor and the Wichita State Library (and

> look for some books so i can ask questions about them)....

 

okay okay i have to say it :

 

Anybody ever heard of a band call soul coughing????

 

(true dreams of wichita???)

 

some are claiming that the lyricist/singer is the newest thing in beat

poetry, but in all interviews i've read about them, he says, "no man, i

just like playing around with words."

 

give a listen to them if you can, in particular their cd "ruby vroom"

cw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:48:14 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      group hug

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> 2) C'mon, Gerry and Phil and Paul and Bill and Marie

> and Richard and Leon -- how about we all meet somewhere

> like Lawrence Kansas (in the middle of the country) and

> have a big group hug, come on everybody what do you say?

 

Levi:

 

can i get in on the group hug thing?  I'm in iowa, and how much more in

the middle of the country can you get???

 

cw

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:57:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: wichita and soul coughing

Comments: To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>

In-Reply-To:  <3455348F.1898@comic.net>

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On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:

 

> > i wasn't going to head to wichita cuz my step-dad is in the hosptial but

> > i'm going to shift gears and leave him to the doctors and head down to

> > see Wichita and visit Pat O'Connor and the Wichita State Library (and

> > look for some books so i can ask questions about them)....

> 

> okay okay i have to say it :

> 

> Anybody ever heard of a band call soul coughing????

> 

> (true dreams of wichita???)

> 

> some are claiming that the lyricist/singer is the newest thing in beat

> poetry, but in all interviews i've read about them, he says, "no man, i

> just like playing around with words."

> 

> give a listen to them if you can, in particular their cd "ruby vroom"

> cw

> 

 

Never listened to them, but a friend wanted "Ruby" for his birthday so I

bought it for him and the clerk was all happies and smiles about

them...maybe I shoulda opened the CD and listened to it before gifting

Scotty with it! :)

 

(Hi Cathie)

 

Jorgiana

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:02:22 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      An Example in Action

Content-Type: text/plain

 

     Well you attack my poem on the grounds that it is quite

unpatriotic.  The fact remains though that I have thrown out facts.

Solid facts, you have told me your feelings, those little demons that

Hemingway says betray us in our hour of need.

     If you have been living under a rock in the US you need to know

that the stock market fell over 556(?) points today.  It was the BIGGEST

crash in history (volume wise, not percentage)

     The stock market is a great indicator of how people feel about this

country and its prosects and hopes in the global web as defined by

Robert Reich.  Today we see once again that Americans are for the most

part cowards.  They have seen a small hole in the damn and instead of

patching it they ran for shelter.

     If you want to talk about cowardice look at it.  There is the prime

example.  Had the American people stayed with their holding instead of

getting scared at the sky falling, they would have bolstered this

economy.

     It is much like the confedrate charge on litte round top where

Chamberlain told his men to hold fast till the last man, last bullet,

last breath.  Then counter-attack and seize the moment.  Had Americans

taken a history lesson they could have seen that there is NO need for

the market to fall %11.7 since last WED.  Rather they could have reduced

this and then used that leverage to buy out other markets while the

American economy is strong.

     The home of the cowards, an example in progress.  Now in responding

I will only request that you use facts.  Not feelings and opinions, but

hard facts.  I am quickly tiring of armchair politicians critiqing my

poem on shaky facts.

     Your input has been vital as I am currently reworking the poem.

Bless you all.  i am even considering the fundamental change that i

fight so bitterly against....USA to World.

     The world is quickly shrinking and perhaps it is time to the world

for its injustices.

Keith

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:04:51 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: group hug

Comments: To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>

In-Reply-To:  <3455364E.2B7B@comic.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Lemme know about this group deal...I'm in Fayetteville, Ark., and dig this

whole scenario...been looking for an excuse to go back up to Lawrence,

anyhow!

 

Carry On My Brothers!

 

Don Lee

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:11:17 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      cheap used books (was Re: Steal this book)

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at my church's used book store i found am ugly looking hardback copy

of herman hesse's siddartha. for only a quarter. that was yesterday.

randy

 

> i found two copies of Maggie Cassidy 1st edition at a place called Manny's,

> an art supply/used book store in New Paltz New York.   and the price i

> paid...12 cents each.  yes...that is right...12 cents each.  this was in

> 1976.

> 

> john j dorfner

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:34:56 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      left/right

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Keith,

Your hypothetical case about left-handed and right-handed people was not

as far-fetched as you suppose. Way back when I started grammar school (in

Chicago, not in some rural school), the teachers tried to "convert" me

from being left-handed as a writer: I had to show up to school a half hour

before everyone else to practice writing with my right hand, and to stay

after school a half hour for the same purpose. I was also given extra

homework to do right-handed. About halfway through second grade, the

teacher finally gave up: she said that at least she could read what I had

been writing left-handed, which she couldn't do with my right-handed

writing. One result was that I worked especially hard on the clarity of my

script: I never wanted them to pick on me like that again. Oh, and

interestingly enough, I started stuttering during first grade; after the

teacher said that I could go back to left-handed writing, I have never

stuttered again.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

10/27/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:38:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Michael's horshoe in Gerry's glove!

Mime-Version: 1.0

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to Michael as he's slipping a covert horseshoe into Gerry's glove.

 

Very nice touch Michael...that's what I'm looking for - an ample mix of

humour and thought! and no stridency....grace undr pressure.

 

 

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:40:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      David, have you got the signup sheets?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        technical foul :)

 

        the Committee

 

        dbr

 

                *********************

 

David, It's about time we got back to the basketball model!

 

                ...where's my list of the sides we chose up last time

around! I love it!

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:40:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Congratulations Gerry. Are you the recipient or Kaufman or both. Do they

have an award for editing and one for the original work? Especially nice to

see what Gary Glazner said about his conversation with Elain Kaufman. Anyone

interested will find that the City Lights web site does a nice job of

showing off other work by Kaufman.

 

                Antoine   ....still reeling from that punch with the

"salted" glove

                                        thanks a bunch michael

 

        ************************

 

from Gerry Nicosia:

 

>Hi to everyone!       Oct 27, 1997

>        Just wanted to explain that I'll be scarce for a few days since I'm

>headed down to L.A. to collect the PEN USA CENTER WEST award for the Bob

>Kaufman book I edited (posthumously) called CRANIAL GUITAR (Coffee House

>Press).  Bob's book was picked as the best poetry book in the Western United

>States last year.  The awards ceremony is at the Biltmore in downtown L.A.

>starting 6:30 Tuesday evening.  Supposed to be movie stars reading the

>award-winning books.  Sounds like a kick.

>        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:36:49 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Arthur Maynard <prinzhal@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ted Jones

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At 19:32 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Does anyone know anything about this writer/poet?  All I've go is what

>little I've picked up (encouraged by Ginsberg, started Rent-A-Beatnik).

>After searching all the library systems in the state, I found one

>collection of his work.  Does anyone know where I could find some good

>background info?  The resources here are limited (as one can tell from the

>above statement).  If anyone knows of an anthology or article or book with

>some info on this guy I could be pointed toward I'd be eternally grateful.

> 

>------------------

>Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

>kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

> 

If you mean Ted Joans, I think they have a pretty good sampling of his work

in the Lipton Collection at USC.  I seem to recall seeing some titles on

Nettie Lipton's bookshelf, and I believe all of her small press collection

was sold to SC after her death.  John Ahouse, the American Literature

specialist at Doheny Memorial Library, will probably be able to tell you a lot.

 

Good luck,

 

John Maynard

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:01:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Subterraneans and the Cellar readings

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Hello,

 

Wondering if anyone knows if the movie Subterraneans is on video?  I

haven't been able to locate it in Tallahassee. Notorious as it is, I'm

thinking of writing about it in relation to the book for academic project

as an example of popular media spin on the Beats.  If anyone knows how I

might get hold of it please let me know.

 

Also trying to find Poetry Readings in the Cellar by Ferlinghetti and

Rexroth.  Maybe some could make a copy of it for me  for sale, barter,

blackmail.

 

In need,

 

Preston

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:08:33 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

James Stauffer wrote:

>Don't remember the PEN crew paying much attention to Kaufman when he was

>among us.

> 

Ditto for Jack Kerouac and Lowell.

        --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:05:22 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Steal this book

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Anne Sneddon wrote:

 

 

> On a related subject, has anybody out there found a Kerouac early edition

> paperback in a thrift store? I had a fleeting vision recently about

> finding a 1st edition copy of OTR in a thrift store and have been

> extra-throrough when going through the book section.  Nothing so far, but

> I have found a few neato 50's/60's Ace science fiction paperbacks which

> are worth it for the cover art alone!

 

At the hospital where I work the volunteer department collects book

donations and stocks a little rack in the lobby, 25 cents a book.  Mostly

romance and Reader's Digest crap, but once in a while, pure gold....I

picked up a 2nd printing of the first Grove paperback edition of "The

Subterraneans," and another time three Chandler Brossard novels.  What a

deal!

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:32:29 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ted Jones

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

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First off, it's Ted JOANS.

 

There's a great poem by Joans and an interview of him by Gerry Nicosia in

"The Beat Vision," edited by Arthur & Kit Knight (Paragon House Publishers,

New York 1987).

 

----------

> From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Ted Jones

> Date: Monday, October 27, 1997 6:32 PM

> 

> Does anyone know anything about this writer/poet?  All I've go is what

> little I've picked up (encouraged by Ginsberg, started Rent-A-Beatnik).

> After searching all the library systems in the state, I found one

> collection of his work.  Does anyone know where I could find some good

> background info?  The resources here are limited (as one can tell from

the

> above statement).  If anyone knows of an anthology or article or book

with

> some info on this guy I could be pointed toward I'd be eternally

grateful.

> 

> ------------------

> Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State

University

> kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

> http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:05:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andrew Lampert <cosmic@CLARK.NET>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Baseball... (with apologies to Patricia)

 

The poet Robert Kelly of Brooklyn wrote, some time ago, a dialogue about the

virtues and meaning of baseball.  One speaker is passionate about the sport

and the other can't understand his friend's enthusiasm.  If you are

interested in reading the piece it is available on the WWW at URL:

 

http://www.clark.net/pub/cosmic/kellya.html

 

 

I believe Kerouac's interest in baseball was a combination of his general

athleticism and the data set of baseball: the orderly historical records

that the sport has obsessed itself with. Kerouac was very much a database

ball builder keeping real records for his imaginary baseball universe and

for his reality based Dracut Tigers. (His interest in horse racing might

also be related to his record-keeping, recording personality.)

 

The beauty of BEAT-L, I can ask Gerry Nicosia the following trivial question:

It's about whether or not Skippy Roberge really played for the Dracut

Tigers.  You suggest in Memory Babe  that Jack and Scotty drafted Skippy to

help the team improve on its dismal 1-10 1937 season. My baseball

encyclopedia tells me Roberge  was born May 19, 1917 which would make him

almost 5 years older than Jack.  Wouldn't he have been too old to play on

the WPA-based Dracut Tigers in 1938?  Did they lie about his age or what? In

any case, you're right about Roberge making it to the major leagues.  He was

there for three years ('41, '42, '46, career batting average .220, with

three homeruns.).  Also, I have always assumed Kerouac was more a Red Sox

than a Braves fan but I don't have any specific reason for this view except

that all great writers and poets love the Red Sox, without exception.

 

Thinking there is no safe place but home, I'm rounding second...

 

Regards to all, Andrew

 

 

>At 05:52 PM 10/27/97 -0600, Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM> wrote:

>>i think this is a post about the world series, there is no place safe.

>>tell me baseball is beat because jack loved it. amerika spends its wad

>>on sports, little boy elbows gone at 12, parents calling 8 year old

>>rivals little bastards, money money money and of course drinking.

> 

> 

>Did you ever see Pull My daisy?  "Is baseball holy?" is one of the questions

>about holiness they were asking the priest.

> 

>Dr. Sax has great baseball stuff.  I saw an anthology of baseball fiction

>once in the sports section of a bookstore and lo and behold a section of Dr.

>Sax was included.

> 

>As I recall Scotty Boldieu (so named because of his stinginess in eating his

>candy bars) was the ace of the Dracut Tigers.

> 

> 

>> 

>>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>>> 

>>> I think the Florida marlins just won the World seies.  Renteria hit one up

>>> the middle in the 11th.

>>> 

>>> Tony Fernandez was "the goat" (always unfair to call someone the goat to my

>>> mind--but they do) was Livan Hernandez the MVP.  This guy is just 22 years

>>> old and he had to escape from Cuba (escape--run away--flee) to come to the

>>> US and play.

>>> 

>>> Go figure.

>>> 

>>> "I love you Miami" is what he shouted.

>> 

>> 

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:13:52 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: group hug

Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> 

> > 2) C'mon, Gerry and Phil and Paul and Bill and Marie

> > and Richard and Leon -- how about we all meet somewhere

> > like Lawrence Kansas (in the middle of the country) and

> > have a big group hug, come on everybody what do you say?

> 

> Levi:

> 

> can i get in on the group hug thing?  I'm in iowa, and how much more in

> the middle of the country can you get???

> 

> cw

dear hearts, i don't actually want to hug but i would look at you, feed

you, welcome you.  more beat parties, yess yess more beat parties.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:42:44 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Example in Action

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> Keith Medline wrote:

 

>      The home of the cowards, an example in progress.  Now in

> responding

> I will only request that you use facts.  Not feelings and opinions, but

> hard facts.  I am quickly tiring of armchair politicians critiqing my

> poem on shaky facts.

>      Your input has been vital as I am currently reworking the poem.

> Bless you all.  i am even considering the fundamental change that i

> fight so bitterly against....USA to World.

>      The world is quickly shrinking and perhaps it is time to the world

> for its injustices.

> Keith

 

The stock market has little to do with cowardice, but more with the law

of gravity (fact), what goes up, must come down.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:31:57 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: group hug

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> >

> > > 2) C'mon, Gerry and Phil and Paul and Bill and Marie

> > > and Richard and Leon -- how about we all meet somewhere

> > > like Lawrence Kansas (in the middle of the country) and

> > > have a big group hug, come on everybody what do you say?

> >

> > Levi:

> >

> > can i get in on the group hug thing?  I'm in iowa, and how much more in

> > the middle of the country can you get???

> >

> > cw

> dear hearts, i don't actually want to hug but i would look at you, feed

> you, welcome you.  more beat parties, yess yess more beat parties.

> p

 

i'm already starting to pack!

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:33:25 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Example in Action

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"It's good to get high, and never come down" -tom petty

randy

> The stock market has little to do with cowardice, but more with the law

> of gravity (fact), what goes up, must come down.

> DC

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:44:29 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Example in Action

 

>     The stock market is a great indicator of how people feel about this

>country and its prosects and hopes in the global web as defined by

>Robert Reich.

 

well, i guess than it should say something very positive- as the stock

market has been setting records like crazy these past few months.

 while you seek pure fact in response, can you measure the quality of a

country using only numbers?  If you can, than you won't find any country

in the world that is worth living in.

and i will say this- purely from the gut- fuck you if you have such a

problem with this country.  take your french canadian ass back to quebec-

theres no room for you here.

i'm not asking you to change usa to world- i'm asking you to shove the

whole poem up your ass.

no, i don't think america is perfect. but i love it- with all it's

corruption, all it's crime, and all it's imperfections.

i'm sorry if everybody  takes offense to this post- my only intention is

to offend those that whine  about how terrible they think they have it

because they live here.

i react this way because of a passion i have for this country. not based

on fact, but based on feeling.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:58:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Personal foul

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Race:

 

Maher committed a personal foul there.  He did get the t to boot

though.  So, you are partially on there.  It looked like he was a

secondary defender trying to draw a charge in the no charge zone, got

run over, was scored on, and drew both the p and the t.

 

But, the Celtics will get beat by at least 15 on All Hallows Eve.  Just

a thought.

 

But, Jack did have a dream about playing basketball, remember.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:08:42 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Example in Action

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Keith,

 

You completely lose me in your economic analysis.  Are you suggesting

that if the participants in the market, in their collective wisdom, had

decided not to sell and instead leveraged their positions to buy more in

foreign markets that this sort American buy- out of foreign economies

would be a good thing?

 

Are you also suggesting that American confidence in the country was high

until the Hong Market experienced problems and now is in tatters?  Would

this suggest that your critique wasn't the case last week.  This

uniquely American cowardice is brand new?

 

As Diane C pointed out, markets go up and down in response to lots of

things.  To take a 10% percent major correction in an overheated market

as a sign of American despair would be pushing it.

 

I'm certainly not telling you to love it or leave it, as someone seems

to be suggesting--but don't see your logic following a logical course at

all.

 

j stauffer

J. Stauffer

Keith Medline wrote:

 

> 

>      Well you attack my poem on the grounds that it is quite

> unpatriotic.  The fact remains though that I have thrown out facts.

> Solid facts, you have told me your feelings, those little demons that

> Hemingway says betray us in our hour of need.

>      If you have been living under a rock in the US you need to know

> that the stock market fell over 556(?) points today.  It was the BIGGEST

> crash in history (volume wise, not percentage)

>      The stock market is a great indicator of how people feel about this

> country and its prosects and hopes in the global web as defined by

> Robert Reich.  Today we see once again that Americans are for the most

> part cowards.  They have seen a small hole in the damn and instead of

> patching it they ran for shelter.

>      If you want to talk about cowardice look at it.  There is the prime

> example. (snip)  Had Americans

> taken a history lesson they could have seen that there is NO need for

> the market to fall %11.7 since last WED.  Rather they could have reduced

> this and then used that leverage to buy out other markets while the

> American economy is strong.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:12:10 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Example in Action

In-Reply-To:  <19971027.214500.30278.2.kokupokit@juno.com>

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>... i will say this- purely from the gut- fuck you if you have such a

>problem with this country.  take your french canadian ass back to quebec-

>theres no room for you here.

 

In other words, AMERICA !!! LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT !!!!

 

Hmmmmm, where have I heard that before?

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:14:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Keith

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That point about Chamberlain is one that I had not heard before. He did

make a courageous and far sighted decision to hold the top while the

Confederates were too cautious.  It might have made the difference.

Like Renteria (sp) ball being 2 inches too tall if you are a Cleveland

fan.   Gettysburg is maybe the most depressing place I have ever been.

The sadness of the men who fought there is still in the air, the ground,

the trees.

 

I went and found the site where the SC regiment was camped the night

before Pickett's charge and then went and stood there, and walked out of

the woods to look up the hill they went up.

 

Lee obviously had lost his mind and it is right that Longstreet would

not give the order to charge.  But beyond that, think of the courage and

heart of the 150 or so who made it up the hill and fought for hours.  As

they went over the top the leader stated, "Let them taste cold steel

men."  It gives me goose bumps to think of those courageous doomed beat

souls.

 

Now, what was that about the stock market?

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:18:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Left handed

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Paul Simon said:

 

I been branded a communist because I'm left handed,

But that's just the hand I use, Oh never mind.

 

I been Kerouac'd and Ginzed,

Burroughed and gerryfrenzied,

maherd and attillaed till i'm blind.

I been whalen, norsed and michlined,

Snydered like a spider

in a world wide web.

DiPrimed in my prime,

Oh the beat list is where I spend my time,

 

Oh Albert, I dropped my harmonica,

Flak rock.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:03:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      stay in touch

 

Gotta have a breather... got things to do, stories and books to write. No

time to be a responsible Beat-L member, because Beat-L simply takes more

attention than I have.

 

Stay in touch with me at my email address, listed up there at the top of this

letter.

 

I'll be back later, maybe in a month or so, when I've gotten ahead of my

work.

 

Lemme know if that group hug materializes.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:17:53 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Example in Action

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I should have noted...

 

Bob Lewis wrote:

>... i will say this- purely from the gut- fuck you if you have such a

>problem with this country.  take your french canadian ass back to quebec-

>theres no room for you here.

 

In other words, AMERICA !!! LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT !!!!

 

Hmmmmm, where have I heard that before?

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:14:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Example in Action

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> and i will say this- purely from the gut- fuck you if you have such a

> problem with this country.  take your french canadian ass back to quebec-

> theres no room for you here.

 

 this is a creepy remark of prejudice and i feel sick when i here a

"fellow" american talk this way.

 

> i'm not asking you to change usa to world- i'm asking you to shove the

> whole poem up your ass.

> no, i don't think america is perfect. but i love it- with all it's

> corruption, all it's crime, and all it's imperfections.

 

i love people, i love a little history,  i love home, i don't love

corruption and  i never will. and if thats your beef, that if,don't love

amerika rather than america then tooo bad for you wake up and smell the

glass ceiling, i hate the amerika that can afford to let children go

hungry for more than food.

 

> i'm sorry if everybody  takes offense to this post- my only intention is

> to offend those that whine  about how terrible they think they have it

> because they live here.

 

the goddam poem wasn't how bad he had it but how blind we were in both

tolerating and abbetting  how bad we made it for some people,  america

should be better than what it is, doesn't meant we hate it, (at least

for me) but it means we must open our goddam eyes and make it what it

should be. It is our job.

 

> i react this way because of a passion i have for this country. not based

> on fact, but based on feeling.

 

reminds me of the person who was explain about negros and the south , it

isn't that they are prejudiced it is how we really feel down here.  It

was a tragic moment in the discussion.

 

I was suprised, at the reactions.  I thought the poem showed a little

too much agnst but it is heart breaking to look at what this country is

compared to what it should could be.  but i agree it is provicial not to

say world but we start with where we are. we should take responsibility

there is no world, them and other countries, in some ways there is only

us, we are denizens. .I don't think it would be fair to leave americia

out of being a cold and dark place for many of its children.. I would

respect someone saying if you don't like it change it, not get out. that

is an old ticket and has been punched..

 

yeah i got pissed off, take your bigoted prejudice remarks and put them.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:24:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: group hug

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Everyone bring what you can.  You don't gotta hug, just be you.  and all that

other stuff is kinda lika hug isn't it.  Just don't put me in the room wid da

snakes.  ;-)

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> >

> > > 2) C'mon, Gerry and Phil and Paul and Bill and Marie

> > > and Richard and Leon -- how about we all meet somewhere

> > > like Lawrence Kansas (in the middle of the country) and

> > > have a big group hug, come on everybody what do you say?

> >

> > Levi:

> >

> > can i get in on the group hug thing?  I'm in iowa, and how much more in

> > the middle of the country can you get???

> >

> > cw

> dear hearts, i don't actually want to hug but i would look at you, feed

> you, welcome you.  more beat parties, yess yess more beat parties.

> p

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:47:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         George Russell <CodyPomera@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ted Jones

 

I've been to a reading he gave here in Seattle.  I know he is now on vacation

in Africa, but he does reside here, at least for now.  Search for

Recollection Used Books (a bookstore here in Seattle, where he gave the

reading, I forgot the URL) and either e-mail the proprietor or they should

have books on him there.  Good luck.

 

-George

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:22:38 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      L'America della Pivano si salva dal rogo.

In-Reply-To:  <199710262138.PAA19672@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>

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A big thanks to Luciano Benetton, a fellow villager of mine,

both born in Ponzano Veneto (Treviso) in the land where the

meadows became hills in the "campagna veneta". i'm proud that

by synchronycity Benetton saves the books & articles written

by Fernanda Pivano, she (as stated in the Arpaia's news) was

planning to burn in a fire the archive 'cuz of the indifference

of the italian public administration,

 

saluti a tutti da

Rinaldo.

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

        "L'America della Pivano si salva dal rogo"

        article by Bruno Arpaia (c) "la Repubblica"

 

Per anni la scrittrice ha cercato di donare alle istituzioni

la sua raccolta di volumi e di lettere degli artisti della

beat generation. Ora Benetton aprira' un Fondo.

 

 

Milano, 28 ottobre 1997,

 

Cinquatamila volumi e una fittissima corrispondenza durata piu' di

quarant'anni con Ernest Hemingway, Francis Scott Fitzgerald, Saul

Bellow, Alice B. Toklas, Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, Gregory Corso,

e poi con gli scrittori delle generazioni successive, come Raymond

Craver o Jay McInerney. Il preziosissimo archivio e la biblioteca

di Fernanda Pivano, "la donna che ha inventato l'America in Italia",

rischiavano di finire al rogo. E invece, per fortuna, quei libri e

quelle lettere, fondamentali per chiunque si interessi di letteratura

americana contemporanea, sono scampati al falo'.

 

Merito di Luciano Benetton, che ha preso personalmente contatti con

la scrittrice e le ha offerto alcuni locali in corso di Porta Vittoria

a Milano, nei pressi della biblioteca Sormani. Grazie alla Fondazione

Benetton, nascera' cosi' un "Fondo sudi e ricerche Fernanda Pivano",

che ospitera' e cataloghera' anche novemila volumi di letteratura

francese appartenuti a Riccardo, il padre della scrittrice, migliaia di

documenti inediti, ritagli, giornali, collezioni di introvabili

riviste underground, manoscritti e prime edizioni con dedica. Un vero

tesoro per gli studiosi, anche se "Nanda" preferirebbe che i frequentatori

del Fondo siano giovani e non quelli che lei, con un pizzico di

cattiveria chiama "i professori". Ha perfino ironicamente chiesto,

naturalmente senza ottenerlo, di vietare loro l'accesso, perche', dice,

"i professori mi hanno fatto la guerra per tutta la vita e non mi

va che adesso approfittino del materiale che ho impiegato anni a

raccogliere".

 

La Pivano aveva preso la decisione del "rogo" nel 1990, dopo anni

passati a insistere con le amministrazioni comunali di Roma e Milano

per trovare un rifugio alle sue carte. Ormai, nella casa di via

Senato, tra scatoloni e pile di libri, a stento si riusciva a camminare.

Ma quei contatti erano stati vani: intralci e ottusita' burocratiche

impedirono di accettare la donazione. "Mi hanno presa in giro per

tre anni", dice la Pivano, "per poi rifiutare senza una spiegazione".

 

Alla fine, non le era restata altra scelta:"Alla mia morte, bruciateli",

aveva ordinato nel suo testamento. Ora le tocchera' riscriverlo, ma

e' felice e commossa:"Non so dire come Benetton abbia saputo della

decisione di bruciare i miei libri", perche' in genere non parlo di

cose private. Fatto sta che ha compiuto un gesto molto elegante e di

grande generosita'. Sono orgogliosa e riconoscente".

 

La "sistemazione" della biblioteca e dell'archivio sono per la Pivano

il coronamento di un anno importante. A maggio, i suoi ottant'anni

sono stati festeggiati in tutta Italia. Genova, la sua citta natale,

le ha dedicato una serata al teatro Carlo Felice e le ha conferito la

cittadinanza onoraria. Le piu' importanti personalita' della cultura

hanno riconosciuto in varie occasioni il proprio debito nei confronti

di chi ci ha spalancato le porte di un'America nascosta e l'importanza

del suo lavoro. Un lavoro iniziato tanto tempo fa, quando, grazie a

Pavese, la giovanissima "Nanda" aveva scoperto la letteratura americana

e aveva fatto le prime traduzioni dell'"Antologia di Spoon River" e di

"Foglie d'erba" di Whitman. Poi erano venuti l'incontro a Cortina

con Hemingway, l'intensa amicizia con i poeti della beat generation,

imposti in Italia, quando farli pubblicare era un'impresa ardua e

difficile, la scoperta delle nuove voci della letteratura d'oltreoceano,

i libri e le migliaia di articoli che ci raccontavano di un continente

che cambiava. Unico neo di quest'anno, la mancata nomina a senatrice

a vita, proposta da Enzo Biagi, Dacia Maraini, Bernardo Bertolucci e

Lalla Romano. Ma e' una pecca da poco. La creazione del Fondo la

compensa ampiamente. "Per me e' davvero imprtante. Sarebbe stato un

peccato lasciar disperdere il lavoro di una vita".

--------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:14:49 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      help: the lion for real

In-Reply-To:  <199710262138.PAA19672@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

friends,

by the Campo Santa Margherita, in a shop window

Allen Ginsberg looks at me, i brought the lion

for real, worth buying, in the tracks there's

as a plus for the CD italian edition "the ballad of

skeletons" and "amazing grace" but there's isn't

the lirycs, help!, i appreciate if one can post it,

un mucchio di grazie in anticipo da

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:36:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: cheap used books (was Re: Steal this book)

In-Reply-To:  <199710280119.UAA02983@mailhub.southeast.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, randy royal wrote:

 

> at my church's used book store i found am ugly looking hardback copy

> of herman hesse's siddartha. for only a quarter. that was yesterday.

> randy

 

i went hogwild at a library book sale this weekend, ~15 books for $3,

including _a coney island of the mind_. and i recently bought the letters of

wsb, 1945-1959, been immersed in this for past few days. one thing i

wondered is what became of hinckle and his wife?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:27:04 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      childish views of America

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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"Why I love America"

by David Rhaesa

Grade 5

Heusner Elementary, Salina Kansas

Mrs. Bassett - Teacher

Mr. Roberts - Principal

 

WHY I LOVE AMERICA

 

        Why I love America?  That is a big why  Maybe it is because we have

more freedom than other countries.  Maybe it is because we are allowed

to elect our president.

 

        Most of all though, I think it is because there were: People who were

brave enough to come to an unknown world and settle a country with a new

form of government.  Men who declared their independence from England.

People who were willing to take a stand for what they believed was

right.  People who were not quitters, who stuck with it when the going

was rough.  People who were curious enough to investigate things so they

could expand their knowledge.  Great men <sic> who knew the difference

between true peace and mere disagreements.  Immigrants who struggled

past prejudice and made a name for themselves.

 

        Now think for a minute.  Are you this kind of person?  Would you keep

going or quit?

 

_____________

 

roflmao

 

went through elementary school files my mom saved -- art work and

writing mostly -- this morning.  I declared i wanted to be a writer when

i grew up when i was in SECOND GRADE!!!!

 

Now -- I was fairly serious in Gang of One about the bad hair days.

Don't think for a second that i'm in rose-coloured glasses seeing all

goodness and beauty in the universe.  i do see potential.  but the

distance between the present and the potential is so wide in the sounds

i hear that i am unable to even function physically in the "land that i

love".  So I understand the "screw you" feelings quite well.  But I find

that ultimately that attitude turns back on me and I screw myself.  I

found Patricia's notion of the importance of improvement and not

settling for the present state of affairs to ring true.  What is the

cliche -- the good is the enemy of the best! <grin>

 

And I understand the notion of "think globally act locally".  The

interconnectedness of events has been so extreme for me at times during

my psychosis that it "felt" as though not cleaning my closet could be

responsible for the stock market crash of the last Black Monday.

(actually, the afternoon before the last Black monday a kind gentleman

loaned me his visa card with no limits on it to make it through a rough

time! -- the reverberations of such an act were severe :) )....

 

rambling and headed to siesta.  watching the weather channel

 

pink floyd just ended a bit ago and "this land is your land" is playing

in my head.....

 

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:26:26 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

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On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:05:03 -0500 Bob Lewis wrote:

 

 

> but as it turned out, she sounded clueless on the subject, and therefore

> i had no choice but to be a smartass about it.

> so if our student in need is still on the list- defend yourself! prove to

> us that you weren't just using us!

 

Hey!  Play nice!

 

Tom.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:50:28 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: losing it....

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On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:18:01 -0400 Marlene Giraud wrote:

 

> From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:18:01 -0400

> Subject: losing it....

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> dear list,

> i'm about at the end of my rope with all these off subject posts. i joined

> the list this past summer and was so thrilled to be discussing the literature

> that i love. I'm probably younger than most on the list (18) and maybe its my

> innocence, but i'm dying to get back to the real reason we subscribed here.

 

The main thing is, don't let it get to you.  Kids will be kids.  This argument

 thing

comes and goes in cycles.  Just hit the delete key...

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"A Bear of Very Little Brain"

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:15:03 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Left handed

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this is great bentz. thanks.

mc

 

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> Paul Simon said:

> 

> I been branded a communist because I'm left handed,

> But that's just the hand I use, Oh never mind.

> 

> I been Kerouac'd and Ginzed,

> Burroughed and gerryfrenzied,

> maherd and attillaed till i'm blind.

> I been whalen, norsed and michlined,

> Snydered like a spider

> in a world wide web.

> DiPrimed in my prime,

> Oh the beat list is where I spend my time,

> 

> Oh Albert, I dropped my harmonica,

> Flak rock.

> 

> --

> 

> Peace,

> 

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:13:25 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      sad acrimony

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i hope i have kept my own mouth shut long enough after tangling with mr

walner to have some credibility behind what i have to say.

it seems that the acrimony from the kerouac estate thread has seeped

into the ground water beneath our beat club house and it appears to be

poisoning our pens.

i just want to say it makes me sick at heart to read things like "take

yr french canadian ass" whereever and stick this and that where the sun

down shine.

this is the only list to which i belong in which this level of  acrimony

seems to be increasingly the norm vs the occasional blip.

i write pomes, people like them or they don't - i chalk it up to

experience and taste.

i have opinions, dittto.

i occassionally get pissed off, ditto.

but i am aghast at how much this has grown to be the culture here.

like i said i live in a glass house and i've thrown the first stone thru

it.

i apologize if i have made anyone feel unwanted or not valuable. (as in

the case of mr walner)

so many accusations so few reality checks on our selves. so few

apologies.

marie countryman

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:37:29 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      antoine

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i don't think i can do justice to just who glad i am that you are back and

active among us, antoine, with your clarity and respectful attitudes,

may we all take a lesson from you.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:11:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac Source Material

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No one should be under the impression that there is no original Kerouac

material available for study by scholars. Attila Gyenis, editor of

Dharma beat has spent tow or three years writing to universities around

the country about their beat holdings. The results can be found in the

current and past issues of Dharma beat. I know he didn't make them up

because I received the letters while we were working together. Between

Dharma beat and the Kerouac Quarterly, many of the Kerouac things in the

NY Public Library and I think the infamous Lowell Collection have been

have been listed.

 

For those who are unfamiliar with the NY Public Library, the Berg

Collection is a division of the library. It's not like the OTR scroll is

sitting on a shelf in the stacks or in a filing cabinet on 42nd Street.

The Berg is a major archival collection of original literary material.

Last year, for the 100th Anniversary of the NYPL, they did 2 exhibitions

which included original manuscripts from English and American poets

beginning, I think, with John Donne and ending with  current stuff. Yes,

some of Kerouac's work was included. The exhibition was covered in

Dharma beat. Check out the NYPL website too.

 

For more info on Dharma beat magazine, drop a line to Attila Gyenis at

Dharma beat, Box 1753, Lowell, MA 01853.

 

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:34:02 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      stock market

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sitting quietly doing nothing

daylight savings time comes

and the stock market crashes by itself ....

 

 

what is the meaning of the stock market crash!!!????

have you had breakfast?

yes....?....

do the dishes ....

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:26:26 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Dreams -- Splicing in WSB (was Re: Seoncd cut up

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> I am going to stick with Book of Dreams.

And I'm going to add from My Education: A Book of Dreams wsb.

This time, I will cut together

> approximately 2 sentences from 5 different pages chosen at random.  I

> will enclose the whole in quotes.  And remember it will make sense as

> this is about dreams anyway.  no promises concerning "sense" but perhaps the

 dreams across two friends from over time may come together in a sense.

 

 

> 

> "A TREMENDOUS FAMILY SAGA, it takes place in a huge high apartment by

> the sea, the same sea of Tidal Waves and Sea Battles-- there are

> intelligent child girls, earlier in the opening of the Saga, in a big

> room, after something to do with the Girl of the Huge Room, Halvar Hayes holds

 a kitten by the neck choking it and me and someone else (Joe  Gavota was

 around) try to break his grip--"You're choking that cat to death!" -- The boys

 set up a guerrilla unit with the young Maize God.--

I cry and try clawing Hal's face, pushing his nose in, pulling

> his hair, everything, kicking, him in the balls so he'll leave that

> kitty go and he wont--now 'tis the other side of town but the same

> Bowery like darkness and after eating which takes me two hours and my

> thoughts are so vast while eating that when I wake up and realize my

> mind'd run thru two hundred dreay mind-weary Finnegangs Wakes, half

> awake goofball sleep--something to do with a waitress girl, burns--I

> leave and head back home to "First Avenue" tho geographically it's

> Eleventh Avenue West Side--and it's not that she doesnt love me,

> business and circumstance compel her to leave--(she loves me, she loves me

 not)-- "Shucks fellers, you got a REEFER?" -- DRIVING IN TWO CADILLACS one a

 '52 one a '47 Limousine, with a gang of friends--the driver is Jim

 Calabrese-Mexican kid--we're going Lombard St Frisco and part Lowell, go down a

 very steep hill, stop all to get out and buy cigarettes--Lousy, Guy Green, lots

 of girls--Jim is smiling--We went over some canal--"COOL IT" I say to a gang of

 crazy boys I been playin on the rollercoasters with, as one starts shouting

 loudly about the marijuana exploits I taught them-"Ah hell, cool it yaself" is

 the answer from my disciples--We're in our shorts and T-shirts, I feel tired or

 trying to keep up with the consequences of the Beat Generation and all

 lubrigious in the dream--Wake up in Lowell Skidrow--- Roast beef and mashed

 potatoes. -- 'T' is only the quite of the Sainte Jeanne d'Arc Church on the

 great gray day of Nov.21 1954 that I saw: "The Beatific Generation" -- T!

he story we have chosen is the longest, but considering the pictures, not very

 long. -- AT THE LONG ISLAND GRAYBEACH a big family reunion and event  but

 instead of starting off on time I goof at basketball in the empty Y court,

 removing coat but not shirt and tie and I'll get all sweaty--I go across the

 litters, enter a store, a beautiful sexy brunette says turning to her father

 "See, all the men go for me"--this after I apprasied her with appreciation and

 said something -- He had achieved a modicum of serenity in Alexandria, but the

 dogs made his life a hell. -- I start to wake up and forget all about her sex

 to speculate with myself and with them about these millions--(Railroad call,

 knock on door) -- And at that very day I see for the first time a brown ranch

 style prefabricated house being rolled out on wheels at San Mateo--right out on

 the road--and mention the dream to brakeman Neal McGee, who laughs and says,

 "Well that must have been a nightmare!" -- Or a writer ... hi!

s face bears scars of the early struggles, the years of neglect and scorn from

 the critics ... but just hold the line and you will be the grand old man of

 letters, with your napkin ring in a very special discreet restaraunt --

> 

> And that is the end of the Book of Dreams/My Education cut up.  I think it is

 actually speaking to the list, what do you think?  David, catch this when you

 get back dude.  Did.  Your turn :) david

> 

> --

> 

> Peace,

> 

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:33:34 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      long walk to the mailbox

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I'd still like to know why Attila Gyenis (Blue Ribbon Boy) keeps a post

office box in Lowell if he hasn't been there for a year and a half?  Somehow

I don't think I'd want to buy a used car from any of these guys.

        --G Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:29:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Apology to Keith...

 

Keith- rereading my statements- i'd like to apologize for my quick and

irresponsible response.

Patricia pointed out that it was prejudiced- i don't fully agree with

that, but it was offensive none the less.  who am i to try to repress

your opinions?

yes america has some huge problems. but i love america for what has and

is attempting to do- it has invited all nations and all races to come

under one roof- and form one nationality.  we have a history of

mistreating several of those races, but we are working on improving those

problems.

as i have heard before- the beat generation officially started when

america unleashed the atom bomb on the world.  one part of beat- mainly

JK's view, seeks out the beautiful america. another part- AG's and WSB's

views, appears to seek the negatives.  or are they just seeking an

improvement? america, when will you send your eggs to india...  a

request, or a statement about the values of america, or both?

hindsight is 20/20.  times like this i wish i could go back and change

history by editing what i said, ala 1984.  but i can't, so i can only try

to make amends.

so please continue with your poem- and disregard quick and irresponsible

posts from people like me.

Bob

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:22:46 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

In-Reply-To:  <199710271836.KAA07063@hsc.usc.edu>

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>And he did have to run away.  He left in Mexico when the Cuban team was

>playing there.  He did not have permission.  Rene Arocha was the first Cuban

>ball player to do that and he literally ran away.

 

He ran away, YES, but he didn't have to run away to play baseball. He was

playing baseball. He ran away to play in he US for a pro team that pays him

more than all the teams in Cuba -- combined --probably make in ten years.

 

He ran away to play baseball for big bucks.

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:15:14 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      My poem and Related Threads

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Fellow BEAT-L subscribers,

 

     5 days ago i asked for your opinions, I got what I asked for thank

you for your time and consideration.  I have made my final remarks

concerning the interpretation of this poem but as I have warned earlier

factions are bad and I see sides starting to coagulate. Please respect

this request and end the discussion.  I am happy to discuss this topic

on a back channel until I get corpal Tunnel, but out of respect for

other subscribers who want to know about Jack, Ginsy, and the rest of

the crew.

Please drop the subject on the main channel.

 

Thank you,

Keith

 

PS-Bill did not request this it was my own undertaking.

 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:09:37 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Keith

Content-Type: text/plain

 

BRAVO!

 

     Your point is well taken and I will concede it.  The men who fought

in ANY American war are the bravest most courageous men in the WORLD.  I

will agree.

 

     I am starting to see this trend that ALL of you well maybe not all

but most of you thought that my poem meant that I hated America.

Certainly not, I merely am pointing out the major faults about this

place.

     I stated that I am an Italian-American, well Italy has a lot of

porblems too.  Their parliment is the most unstable on Earth.  I feel

though that the Italians have had a rough go, especially in my ancesotrs

Sicily where they have not had a stable govrnment well ever. they were

Greek, Roman, carthaginian...  the list is long which gives rise to a

rebel spirit.

     If not for America i would NOT be at College,  I would not have

these clothes, I would not be writing this.  I do see however, that

American Capitalism is very corrupt, and has ruined this country, to an

extent.

     You are right, veterans deserve ALL THE LOVE AND HONOR IN THE

WORLD.

Keith

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:53:00 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      A message for Bob Lewis...

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Then you are a fool, without eyes.  However, lovely that must have been

when you were 7, grow up.  Open your eyes, or maybe you enjoy

 

>fuck you

>take your french canadian ass back to quebec- theres no room for you

here.

>shove the whole poem up your ass.

>my only intention is to offend those that whine  about how terrible

>they think they have it because they live here.

>i react this way because of a passion i have for this country. not

based

>on fact, but based on feeling.

 

lets see:

-You are a person with a narrow vocabulary since you have to resort to

"fuck you."  Perhaps words written by someone who isn't intellectually

pusilanimous would mean something.

-take your french-canadian ass back to quebec? WOW!  You have PERFECTLY

displayed my point why America is so completely ruined.   you think you

have the right to judge somebodies opinions based on yours without any

factual basis?  You say you love everything about America, well let me

ask you this: If your ancestors had come to a country where people told

them to take their ethnic ass back to their homeland, there is no room

for them here.  Do you honestly think they would have stayed?  Think

about that for a moment.

-shove the whole poem up your ass.  Thank you.  I am glad you have the

balls to tell the truth about what you think.  I commend you.

-Your compassion and lust for everything America(murder and all) is

noble.  However, I did not state in the poem anywhere, that I feel

oppressed myself in this country, I never even hinted that I think I

have it terrible because I live here.

 

     On a final note, your criticism is well taken.  Your method however

leaves a lot to be desired.  If you cannot formulate a rational and even

tempered opinion(even with facts and opinion combined to make a clear

statement) nobody will take you seriously.

     In the future, don't alienate an entire people because you feel you

have the right to.  Try to stay calm and not call names which destroy

your credibility. And use some fact, even one small piece of it would be

nice.

 

Thank You for your criticism,

Keith

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:30:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ted Jones

Mime-Version: 1.0

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There is a little said about him in the book _The Beat Generation Writers_.

 

Jon

 

At 07:32 PM 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Does anyone know anything about this writer/poet?  All I've go is what

>little I've picked up (encouraged by Ginsberg, started Rent-A-Beatnik).

>After searching all the library systems in the state, I found one

>collection of his work.  Does anyone know where I could find some good

>background info?  The resources here are limited (as one can tell from the

>above statement).  If anyone knows of an anthology or article or book with

>some info on this guy I could be pointed toward I'd be eternally grateful.

> 

>------------------

>Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

>kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:31:06 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Example in Action

 

the stock market has no inherent value or meaning any more.  that say

something about America's economy and people to any of you?

 

ah, the tangled web of illusion....

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Diane Carter

Sent:   Monday, October 27, 1997 11:42 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: An Example in Action

 

> Keith Medline wrote:

 

>      The home of the cowards, an example in progress.  Now in

> responding

> I will only request that you use facts.  Not feelings and opinions, but

> hard facts.  I am quickly tiring of armchair politicians critiqing my

> poem on shaky facts.

>      Your input has been vital as I am currently reworking the poem.

> Bless you all.  i am even considering the fundamental change that i

> fight so bitterly against....USA to World.

>      The world is quickly shrinking and perhaps it is time to the world

> for its injustices.

> Keith

 

The stock market has little to do with cowardice, but more with the law

of gravity (fact), what goes up, must come down.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:55:20 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> Did you ever see Pull My daisy?  "Is baseball holy?" is one of the questions

> about holiness they were asking the priest.

> 

 

Baseball is holy! Hockey is holy! The puck is holy! The four-seam

fastball is holy! The ballpark and hockey rink and sandlot and shinny

game holy!

 

The world series is holy the Stanley Cup is holy!

 

Holy Jim Leyland holy Scotty Bowman holy Larry Walker holy Wayne Gretzky

holy Felipe Alou holy Brendan Shanahan holy Dutch Daulton holy Moose

Messier holy Mel Allen holy Don Cherry!

 

Holy the seventh-inning stretch! Holy Hockey Night in Canada!

 

Holy the brushback! Holy the left wing lock! Holy the grass fields! Holy

Maple Leaf gardens!

 

Holy America's national pastime! Holy Canada's national passion!

 

Holy the Elysian Fields, New Jersey, birthplace of baseball!

Holy Kelvington, Saskatchewan, Canada's hockey factory!

 

Holy the twostrikes-twoout-bottomoftheeleventh-suddendeathovertime GLORY

that is and should forever be sacred between fathers and sons!

 

 

...I had to speak up. It IS alright to love both poetry and sports, tho

I think I'm the only one in my town who does!

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:52:01 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: stay in touch

Content-Type: text/plain

 

That means you are in, right?

 

leon

 

>I'll be back later, maybe in a month or so, when I've gotten ahead of

my

>work.

> 

>Lemme know if that group hug materializes.

> 

>diane

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:55:06 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      looking for ferlinghetti poem (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Got this message in the mail -- does anybody know of this poem?

It sounds nice anyway.  If you have an answer, remember to cc

maureenmck@snet.net ...

 

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:44:38 -1000

From: Maureen McKenna <maureenmck@snet.net>

To: brooklyn@netcom.com

Subject: looking for ferlinghetti poem

 

Mr. Asher,

for months now, i've been looking for a ferlinghetti poem(well,i'm 99%

sure it's ferlinghetti)that first got me interested in poetry when i was

going through my adolescent "nobody understands me" phase. now i'm a 47

year old with a poor memory & can only remember bits & pieces of it. it

was about a boy who, when he was very young, saw all of his school work

& drawings being put up on the refrigerator door by his proud mother. as

he got older, he received less & less attention & love, & none of his

work  got up on the refrigerator anymore. by the end of the poem, he

killed himself.

is this at all familiar to you? i'd really like to find it. any help

would be appreciated.

thank you,

Maureen McKenna

maureenmck@writeme.com

 

-------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                    |

|                                                     |

|     Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|      (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                     |

|          "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"       |

|            (a real book, like on paper)             |

|               also at http://coffeehousebook.com    |

|                                                     |

|                   *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                     |

|                            "Not sunglasses, shades" |

-------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:22:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      ON THE ROAD oddity

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi everyone, especially everyone who has - or has access to - early editions

of Kerouac.

 

        I got the following e-mail from Rod Anstee a while ago and with the

recent posts about finding - or not finding - old, used copies of Kerouac

and the other Beats, this seemed a good time to post it.  Rod has a question

about a change made to the text of "On The Road". He expalins what raised

the question and the significance of the answer. Hope some of you have early

editions to look this up in!

 

        Antoine

 

        **************

 

from Rod Anstee:  [Nastees@aol.com]

 

A question re: the first edition of ON THE ROAD

 

Recently I read a section from ON THE ROAD at a poetry gathering

here in town -- this was in honour of the 40th anniversary of the

original publication, 5 September, 1957. I read the section in

which Kerouac describes his first "big opening day" on the road,

which ends, as anyone who's read the novel knows, in Jack being

forced to retreat back to NYC in a bus full of school teachers. I

had rehearsed this passage a few times using my battered old

SIGNET reading copy, but in the meantime I rec'd a copy of the

proper 40th Anniversary Edition, and so I took this along with me

to the reading.

 

     At the reading, I was surprised to discover a very small

difference between the two texts. When Jack finally accepts

defeat in the story, and abandons his dream of following Highway

#6 all the way across America, he accepts a ride into Newburgh,

NY where he later catches a southbound bus into the city. In the

first edition of ON THE ROAD (i.e. the Viking Press hardcover,

1st printing, 1957) he describes this ride as taking him "back to

Newburgh" -- the italics are in the original text. However, in

the new 40th Anniversay edition, I noticed that this phrase had

been revised to read "north to Newburgh." This was a logical

correction, geographically speaking, since Newburgh is located

north of the Bear Mountain Bridge, where Jack begs the ride,

therefore the trip to Newburgh was not "back" -- i.e. it didn't

retrace Jack's journey earlier in the day, but rather took him a

little further north, presumably to a place big enough for him to

catch a southbound bus. Some sharp person at Viking Press noticed

the error at some point and corrected it.

 

The key question is, WHEN EXACTLY WAS THIS CORRECTION MADE?

 

     That's because there is just the slimmest possibility that

this oddity actually constitutes a previously unnoticed "point of

issue" in regard to the first edition of ON THE ROAD, dividing

the so-called 1st printing into a "first issue" and a (less

valuable) "second issue."

     Obviously, that is a long shot. I feel it's far more likely that this

correction was made between, rather than during a printing, and

so it would be interesting to know if anyone with a 2nd or even a

3rd hardcover printing of ON THE ROAD in the their Kerouac

collections finds the original wording (i.e. "back to Newburgh")

or the revised wording ("north to Newburgh".)

     The most likely scenario of all, I think, is that this

correction was made a bit later, when the Viking/Compass edition

of the book was released in 1959. According to Annie Charters'

bibliography, this edition was released in both hardcover and

paperback. I have never seen a hardcover copy of this edition,

nor have I ever seen one offered for sale, though it still may

exist out there, as book dealers generally tend to concentrate on

"first editions", often to the extent of ignoring even rarer,

later editions. I have only ever seen the paperback version of

the Compass edition and my earliest printing of this edition

dates from 1960, and in this printing the error has been

corrected. However, I would be very interested in hearing from

anyone who has a proper first printing of the Viking Compass

edition (hardcover, or softcover) about what they find therein.

     All this is exceedingly easy to check out in your copies of

the book -- the error/correction in question occurs on p. 13,

BOOK ONE, Chapter 2, 10 lines down from the top of the page in all

of the existing Viking editions of the book, except the new 40th

Anniversary edition, which has been reset such that the passage

in question shows up on p. 11. The Signet editions were never

corrected, incidentally, and no edition (to date) printed in the

UK has ever been corrected either.

     I know this might seem a nutty inquiry to most, but if it

proves to be a genuine "point of issue" it will be rather

important news for all book dealers and collectors.

So thanks for your help.

 

CHEERS,   Rod Anstee

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:27:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Example in Action

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bob Lewis wrote:

<snip>

 

> i'm not asking you to change usa to world- i'm asking you to shove the

> whole poem up your ass.

 

 <snip>

 

Bob:

 

There's no need to give this sort of feedback to Keith.  He came to the list

with a well intentioned question and does not deserve to be dissed like

this.  We don't need to trample all over someone to express feelings.  I hope

you will lighten up on him some.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:30:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Slewfootsu@AOL.COM

Subject:      Test Test Ignore

 

Beat L Test

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:20:58 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:22 AM 10/28/97 -0600, you wrote:

>>And he did have to run away.  He left in Mexico when the Cuban team was

>>playing there.  He did not have permission.  Rene Arocha was the first Cuban

>>ball player to do that and he literally ran away.

> 

>He ran away, YES, but he didn't have to run away to play baseball. He was

>playing baseball. He ran away to play in he US for a pro team that pays him

>more than all the teams in Cuba -- combined --probably make in ten years.

> 

>He ran away to play baseball for big bucks.

> 

 

True, but also to play against and with the best in the world.  Big bucks is

a consequence of being the best.

>j grant

> 

>        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

>                        FREE

>                           at

>                            BookZen

>                        http://www.bookzen.com

>             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:26:33 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ted Jones

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Isn't his name Ted Joans?

 

 

 

 

At 07:32 PM 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Does anyone know anything about this writer/poet?  All I've go is what

>little I've picked up (encouraged by Ginsberg, started Rent-A-Beatnik).

>After searching all the library systems in the state, I found one

>collection of his work.  Does anyone know where I could find some good

>background info?  The resources here are limited (as one can tell from the

>above statement).  If anyone knows of an anthology or article or book with

>some info on this guy I could be pointed toward I'd be eternally grateful.

> 

>------------------

>Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

>kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:53:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      See ya later. . .

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Well, I've been back for a few DAZE and I'm outta here

once again.  Too much crap for me!!!

 

Mike

 

PS. If anyone needs me, you know where I am.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:59:00 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

In-Reply-To:  <199710282120.NAA01024@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>At 12:22 AM 10/28/97 -0600, you wrote:

>>>And he did have to run away.  He left in Mexico when the Cuban team was

>>>playing there.  He did not have permission.  Rene Arocha was the first Cuban

>>>ball player to do that and he literally ran away.

>> 

>>He ran away, YES, but he didn't have to run away to play baseball. He was

>>playing baseball. He ran away to play in he US for a pro team that pays him

>>more than all the teams in Cuba -- combined --probably make in ten years.

>> 

>>He ran away to play baseball for big bucks.

>> 

> 

>True, but also to play against and with the best in the world.  Big bucks is

>a consequence of being the best.

 

Cuba has the lowest infant mortality rate in this hemisphere--possibly the

world.  Where are the big bucks that are the consequence of being the best

at saving the lives of infants? Or are big bucks not always the consequence

of being the best--just being the best at games?

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:00:36 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: stock market

In-Reply-To:  <3455DBBA.1183@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>sitting quietly doing nothing

>daylight savings time comes

>and the stock market crashes by itself ....

> 

> 

>what is the meaning of the stock market crash!!!????

>have you had breakfast?

>yes....?....

>do the dishes ....

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

 

Or, "What does it all mean Mr. Natural?"

 

And I know I don't have to answer that question for you David.

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:04:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>

Subject:      ballad of the skeletons

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:14 PM 10/28/97 +0100, you wrote:

> there's as a plus for the CD italian edition "the ballad of

>skeletons" and "amazing grace" but there's isn't

>the lirycs, help!, i appreciate if one can post it,

>un mucchio di grazie in anticipo da

>Rinaldo.

> 

 

the ballad of the skeletons

 

Said the Presidential Skeleton

I won't sign the bill

Said the speaker skeleton

Yes you will

 

Said the Representative Skeleton

I object

Said the Supreme Court skeleton

Waddya expect

 

Said the Military skeleton

Buy Star Bombs

Said the Upperclass Skeleton

Starve unmarried moms

 

Said the Yahoo Skeleton

Stop dirty art

Said the Right Wing skeleton

Forget about yr heart

 

Said the Gnostic Skeleton

The Human Form's divine

Said the Moral Majority skeleton

No it's not mine

 

Said the Buddha Skeleton

Compassion is wealth

Said the Corporate skeleton

It's bad for your health

 

Said the Old Christ Skeleton

Care for the Poor

Said the Son of God skeleton

AIDS needs cure

 

Said the Homophobe skeleton

Gay folk suck

Said the Heritage Policy skeleton

Black's are outa luck

 

Said the Macho skeleton

Women in their place

Said the Fundamentalist skeleton

Increase the human race

 

Said the Right-to-Life skeleton

Foetus has a soul

Said the Pro Choice skeleton

Shove it up your hole

 

Said the Downsized skeleton

Robots got my job

Said the the Tough-on-Crime skeleton

Tear gas the mob

 

Said the Governor skeleton

Cut school lunch

Said the Mayor skeleton

Eat the budget crunch

 

Said the Neo Conservative skeleton

Homeless off the street!

Said the Free Market skeleton

Use'en up for meat

 

Said the Think Tank skeleton

Free Market's the way

Said the Savings & Loan skeleton

Make the State pay

 

Said the Ecological skeleton

Keep Skies blue

Said the Multinational skeleton

What's it worth to you?

 

Said the NAFTA skeleton

Get rich, Free Trade,

Said the Maquiladora skeleton

Sweat shops, low paid

 

Sait the GATT skeleton

One world, high tech

Said the Underclass skeleton

Get it in the neck

 

Said the World Bank skeleton

Cut down your trees

Said the I.M.F. skeleton

Buy American cheese

 

Said the Underdeveloped skeleton

We want rice

Said the Developed Nations' skeleton

Sell your bones for dice

 

Said the Ayatollah skeleton

Did writer die

Said Joe Stalin's skeleton

That's no lie

 

Said the Middle Kingdom skeleton

We swallowed Tibet

Said the Dalai Lama skeleton

Indigestion whatcha get

 

Said the World Chorus skeleton

That's their fate

Said the U.S.A. skeleton

Gotta save Kuwaitt

 

Said the Petrochemical skeleton

Roar Bombers roar!

Said the Psychedelic skeleton

Smoke a dinasaur

 

Said Nancy's skeleton

Just say no

Said the Rasta skeleton

Blow Nancy Blow

 

Said the Demagogue skeleton

Don't smoke Pot

Said the Alcholic skeleton

Let your liver rot

 

Said the Junkie skelton

Can't we get a fix?

Said the Big Brother skeleton

Jail dirty pricks

 

Said the Mirror skeleton

Hey good looking

Said the Electric Chair Skeleton

Hey what's cooking?

 

Said the Talkshow skeleton

Fuck you in the face

Said the Family Values skeleton

My family values mace

 

Said the NY Times skeleton

That's not fit to print

Said the CIA skelton

Cantcha take a hint?

 

Said the Network skeleton

Believe my lies

Said the Advertising skeleton

Don't get wise!

 

Said the Media skeleton

Believe you me

Said the Couch-Potato skeleton

What me worry?

 

Said the TV skeleton

Eat sound bites

Said the Newscast skeleton

That's all Goodnight

 

        AG -- Feb 12-16, 1995

 

         E

Said the Presidential Skeleton

  A              E

I won't sign the bill

 

Said the speaker skeleton

B       E

Yes you will

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:46:11 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Joey Mellott <peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>

Subject:      Re: wichita and soul coughing

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

----------

> From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: wichita and soul coughing

> Date: Monday, October 27, 1997 6:40 PM

> 

> > i wasn't going to head to wichita cuz my step-dad is in the hosptial

but

> > i'm going to shift gears and leave him to the doctors and head down to

> > see Wichita and visit Pat O'Connor and the Wichita State Library (and

> > look for some books so i can ask questions about them)....

> 

> okay okay i have to say it :

> 

> Anybody ever heard of a band call soul coughing????

> 

> (true dreams of wichita???)

> 

> some are claiming that the lyricist/singer is the newest thing in beat

> poetry, but in all interviews i've read about them, he says, "no man, i

> just like playing around with words."

> 

> give a listen to them if you can, in particular their cd "ruby vroom"

> cw

 

I don't have ruby vroom but I have their new album "irresistible bliss."  I

like it.  It's a lot better for the crap that makes up indie rock these

days.  The music is jazz/hip-hop mixed with alt rock.  The singer does use

puns and alliteration quite a bit.  I like a band that can make a song

about math listenable.

 

my $.02

 

Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and poseur music critic

(peyotecoyote@iah.com)

"the socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little

bells (300 of horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."

- Antonin Artaud

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:04:54 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      leif bib

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Irving Leif,

You asked people to contact you about your Kerouac bib. I tried to do so,

but my university has blocked all transmissions to and from the netcom

domain, apparently because someone had been using that vehicle to send

e-mail bombs. Could you send a snail-mail address to the beat-l so that I

can contact you with some information you might not have.

Mike Skau

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:12:30 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 03:59 PM 10/28/97 -0600, you wrote:

>>At 12:22 AM 10/28/97 -0600, you wrote:

>>>>And he did have to run away.  He left in Mexico when the Cuban team was

>>>>playing there.  He did not have permission.  Rene Arocha was the first Cuban

>>>>ball player to do that and he literally ran away.

>>> 

>>>He ran away, YES, but he didn't have to run away to play baseball. He was

>>>playing baseball. He ran away to play in he US for a pro team that pays him

>>>more than all the teams in Cuba -- combined --probably make in ten years.

>>> 

>>>He ran away to play baseball for big bucks.

>>> 

>> 

>>True, but also to play against and with the best in the world.  Big bucks is

>>a consequence of being the best.

> 

>Cuba has the lowest infant mortality rate in this hemisphere--possibly the

>world.  Where are the big bucks that are the consequence of being the best

>at saving the lives of infants? Or are big bucks not always the consequence

>of being the best--just being the best at games?

> 

 

 

Different professions have different pay scales of course.  One can be the

best speller in the world and not make much money or the best badmitton

player and not make a mint either.

 

In terms of salary we are talking about individuals.  I don't quite

understand how you are comparing an individual's ability and how it may

relate to his or her earning power with statistics about infant mortality rates.

 

I do see you are trying to make a point about your respect for the Cuban regime.

 

 

>j grant

> 

>        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

>                        FREE

>                           at

>                            BookZen

>                        http://www.bookzen.com

>             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:30:15 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: leif bib

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Mike,

 

Thanks for trying to contact me.  You can reach me during the day at my

e-mail address at the university -   ipl1@columbia.edu (that's ipl plus the

numeral one not two ls).  Not a bad university to be if you are into the Beats.

 

I'd really love to hear what you may have.

 

Irving Leif

 

 

At 05:04 PM 10/28/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Irving Leif,

>You asked people to contact you about your Kerouac bib. I tried to do so,

>but my university has blocked all transmissions to and from the netcom

>domain, apparently because someone had been using that vehicle to send

>e-mail bombs. Could you send a snail-mail address to the beat-l so that I

>can contact you with some information you might not have.

>Mike Skau

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:55:53 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      poem by anne walden

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ever since that mispent bullet of passion was sent to us on the list,

this poem kept coming to my mind.  going through the box , i found it,

 

Romance

  poem by Anne Walden

 

She

  Born & lost in a throw of time

  I'm always thinking of shunning time

  because I change my mind or dress so often

  Cerulian: for your eyes

  Amber beads at dawn, a lilting surface

  whose light makes eyes fiery as if silenced

  ideas would suddenly be released out of head

  Color would jump at an offer, wouldn't you?

  Disjointed dreams owned by a Capitalist:

  my glistening black shoulders entering armchairs.

  A petrified thought so I'll stop talking

  and you speak.

 

Lover

  Your yokel ambition to be many of face

  & all seduction will halt my laziness

  if wanton eyes change please look this way

  Come 'round the bend and any woman

  you'd care to be is fine with me,

  we're unfeasible in a crowd, however

  and as dusk approaches let's zigzag out of here

  Compensations exist in the landscape

  and shouldn't be wxploited a great deal

  like patches of snow don't really

  sabotage romance do they?  Who are you?

  Can you breathe, attired flamboyantly?

 

She

  Ideals are noble but you are

  dressed to give a more modern touch

  to the room, although you rankle me

  the way you are young & require purification

  You sound me out because afternoon

  gives me desire.  I could be somber

  if a light rain would fall, I could be

  utilized if you"ll mountain climb

  anywhere in this Capitaist joint

  & and forgive the scheme of asking dumb questions.

  I'm not so deficient.  Kiss me

 

Lover

  Protein? Vengeance? Jealousy?

  We ought to get out together more often

  It's hard to explain how austerity

  gets in your bones, I am the child of

  one of you & it's easy to be taken in:

  Into all probability, into the years on end,

  into a liberation struggle, into a persistent

  pattern and my heart (which should be studying)

  breaks for you, for love of you

  In this way you are making me love

  a sumptuous ill-afforded item

  or lead me through premature twilight.

 

She

  In this way I"ll be appealing:

  Form is joy! In this way all of me

  will enter the lounge as if no one ever

  starved or sufffered, as if no one reads anymore

  as if that in itself could scare me, as

  if we are all economic exploiters coated in oil

  As if I could enter one room for the rest of life.

  aloof, tight-lipped I can hardly breathe

  being more abondoned than usual

  more than what you say, more than what

  you ever say, it's automatic

 

Wind in foothills

  Automatically dramatic, dominating

  and side by side with lavish texture & style

  You could always do this & are liberated-

  No going back! the wind says You

  are amusing & therefore the wind moves for you,

  spins for you and won't settle easily tomight

  Wind can be rueful too, and stubborn

  not behaving like any government.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:10:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Source Material

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Mark:

 

I don't think anyone questions that some materials are available.  That is

not the question or the point.  You gloss over the fact that Sampas has, and

this was confirmed to me in person by the librarian at Berkeley, attempted

to force these libraries not to let people have access to any material that

was originated by Jack Kerouac.  This worked at the UMass at Lowell.  I have

seen comfirmation of the fact that scholars have been denied access to the

archives there.  The question isn't what is out there.  The question is what

is the estate sitting on, what has it sold and to whom, who stole the

letters from U Mass at Lowell and why is John Sampas trying to keep people

from accessing Kerouac's letters etc.  There are more questions, but the

answers to these would be a good start.

 

Hemenway . Mark wrote:

 

> No one should be under the impression that there is no original Kerouac

> material available for study by scholars. Attila Gyenis, editor of

> Dharma beat has spent tow or three years writing to universities around

> the country about their beat holdings. The results can be found in the

> current and past issues of Dharma beat. I know he didn't make them up

> because I received the letters while we were working together. Between

> Dharma beat and the Kerouac Quarterly, many of the Kerouac things in the

> NY Public Library and I think the infamous Lowell Collection have been

> have been listed.

> <snip>

> Mark Hemenway

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:25:58 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: poem by anne walden

 

i've never read Anne Walden.  thank Patricia - this is really wonderful.  what

book does this come from?

 

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Patricia Elliott

Sent:   Tuesday, October 28, 1997 5:55 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        poem by anne walden

 

ever since that mispent bullet of passion was sent to us on the list,

this poem kept coming to my mind.  going through the box , i found it,

 

Romance

  poem by Anne Walden

 

She

  Born & lost in a throw of time

  I'm always thinking of shunning time

  because I change my mind or dress so often

  Cerulian: for your eyes

  Amber beads at dawn, a lilting surface

  whose light makes eyes fiery as if silenced

  ideas would suddenly be released out of head

  Color would jump at an offer, wouldn't you?

  Disjointed dreams owned by a Capitalist:

  my glistening black shoulders entering armchairs.

  A petrified thought so I'll stop talking

  and you speak.

 

Lover

  Your yokel ambition to be many of face

  & all seduction will halt my laziness

  if wanton eyes change please look this way

  Come 'round the bend and any woman

  you'd care to be is fine with me,

  we're unfeasible in a crowd, however

  and as dusk approaches let's zigzag out of here

  Compensations exist in the landscape

  and shouldn't be wxploited a great deal

  like patches of snow don't really

  sabotage romance do they?  Who are you?

  Can you breathe, attired flamboyantly?

 

She

  Ideals are noble but you are

  dressed to give a more modern touch

  to the room, although you rankle me

  the way you are young & require purification

  You sound me out because afternoon

  gives me desire.  I could be somber

  if a light rain would fall, I could be

  utilized if you"ll mountain climb

  anywhere in this Capitaist joint

  & and forgive the scheme of asking dumb questions.

  I'm not so deficient.  Kiss me

 

Lover

  Protein? Vengeance? Jealousy?

  We ought to get out together more often

  It's hard to explain how austerity

  gets in your bones, I am the child of

  one of you & it's easy to be taken in:

  Into all probability, into the years on end,

  into a liberation struggle, into a persistent

  pattern and my heart (which should be studying)

  breaks for you, for love of you

  In this way you are making me love

  a sumptuous ill-afforded item

  or lead me through premature twilight.

 

She

  In this way I"ll be appealing:

  Form is joy! In this way all of me

  will enter the lounge as if no one ever

  starved or sufffered, as if no one reads anymore

  as if that in itself could scare me, as

  if we are all economic exploiters coated in oil

  As if I could enter one room for the rest of life.

  aloof, tight-lipped I can hardly breathe

  being more abondoned than usual

  more than what you say, more than what

  you ever say, it's automatic

 

Wind in foothills

  Automatically dramatic, dominating

  and side by side with lavish texture & style

  You could always do this & are liberated-

  No going back! the wind says You

  are amusing & therefore the wind moves for you,

  spins for you and won't settle easily tomight

  Wind can be rueful too, and stubborn

  not behaving like any government.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:25:11 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: poem by anne walden

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Sherri wrote:

> 

> i've never read Anne Walden.  thank Patricia - this is really wonderful.  what

> book does this come from?

> 

> ciao, sherri

> 

I don't know,  i have it as a large color poster, 11 by 17,

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:10:46 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Apology to Keith...

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Mr. Lewis,

 

     I accept your apology.  Thank you for apologizing to me publicly,

it shows a great deal of class and integrity.  I commend you and not

wavering on your opinions that takes courage.

 

Keith

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:42:40 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: poem by anne walden

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> Romance

>   poem by Anne Walden

> 

> Wind in foothills

>   Automatically dramatic, dominating

>   and side by side with lavish texture & style

>   You could always do this & are liberated-

>   No going back! the wind says You

>   are amusing & therefore the wind moves for you,

>   spins for you and won't settle easily tomight

>   Wind can be rueful too, and stubborn

>   not behaving like any government.

 

Wind essence of romance foothills or Flinthills by the Kaw the people of

the southwind sing stories in the nights of she and of lovers and of the

journey of romance we call living.

 

thanks so much for the wonderful poem, p.

 

p,l,& u

d

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 04:15:41 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: poem by anne walden

 

Baby, just finished reading the posts from July 10, you sent me.  breathless,

awestruck and oh my God i want you!!!!!!!

 

devouringly,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of RACE ---

Sent:   Tuesday, October 28, 1997 7:42 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: poem by anne walden

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> Romance

>   poem by Anne Walden

> 

> Wind in foothills

>   Automatically dramatic, dominating

>   and side by side with lavish texture & style

>   You could always do this & are liberated-

>   No going back! the wind says You

>   are amusing & therefore the wind moves for you,

>   spins for you and won't settle easily tomight

>   Wind can be rueful too, and stubborn

>   not behaving like any government.

 

Wind essence of romance foothills or Flinthills by the Kaw the people of

the southwind sing stories in the nights of she and of lovers and of the

journey of romance we call living.

 

thanks so much for the wonderful poem, p.

 

p,l,& u

d

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:20:33 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Apology to Keith...

 

Keith-

thanks for overlooking my previous ignorance- and acting like the adult.

too bad all the arguments on this list aren't so simply solved :)

in retrospect, i should've mentioned this poem by ferlinghetti as a

response to your poem:

The world is a beautiful place

        to be born into

if you don't mind happiness

        not always being

                so very much fun

if you don't mind a touch of hell

                now and then...

 

ya get the point.  it's from "25", in "pictures of a gone world". I've

got it in an anthology city lights put out a couple years ago.  it's a

great intro to the beat poetry, especially for those like myself who are

not huge on poetry.

 

been reading "the adding machine" for the first time- great book.

probably the best of burroughs i've read.  i think what fascinates me

most about the beats is the collective amount of intelligence.   anybody

have suggestions for other reading similar to this type of writing by any

of the beats?

also seeking spoken word from ginsberg- i've got a couple clips from the

internet, but can't find anything else.  does it exist?? and where should

i be looking??

thanks for the help!

bob

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:19:23 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: poem by anne walden

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Sherri wrote:

> 

> Baby, just finished reading the posts from July 10, you sent me.  breathless,

> awestruck and oh my God i want you!!!!!!!

> 

well dear, bad news, my dear one sits beside me and caught your post.

we are discovered.  When william was driven to describe me, he would

sometimes say well she is very popular with the gentlemen, and raise his

brows.  but not after my dear one made me go legal. but i hope this

doesn't rule out a group hug.  I would love to have a party,  if any you

are thinking of coming to lawrence, the beat hotel just put a wall on

its downstairs bed room and bathroom. very modern

regards patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:56:49 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: cheap used books (was Re: Steal this book)

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Michael,

 

I would have to check my recollection, but I believe Al Hinkle is in Los

Gatos, Ca.  I recall a reference in John Cassidy's interview on Levi's

site where describes talking to Al in a supermarket--a nice Beat

interaction, totally anonymous, in a good old supermarket.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Michael Stutz wrote:

> 

> On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, randy royal wrote:

> 

> > at my church's used book store i found am ugly looking hardback copy

> > of herman hesse's siddartha. for only a quarter. that was yesterday.

> > randy

> 

> i went hogwild at a library book sale this weekend, ~15 books for $3,

> including _a coney island of the mind_. and i recently bought the letters of

> wsb, 1945-1959, been immersed in this for past few days. one thing i

> wondered is what became of hinckle and his wife?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:05:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Beat addresses

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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Does anyone know of a single source for getting the various addresses of

Beat writers who are still around and writing?

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

 

"I always imagined I would write a book, if only a small one, that would

carry one away, into a realm that could not be measured nor even

remembered."

                                 -- Patti Smith, Woolgathering

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:13:29 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

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Jo,

 

It's a mixed bag.  If someone like Livan Hernandez really wants to be

able to excercize all his options he comes here--for the money, for the

chance to play the best, or just to be able to make his own choices.

 

Cuba beats us at dealing with infant mortality (which given our

resources is inexcusable.) We beat them at offering a freer intellectual

and economic climate for those with abilities.  Maybe one would rather

be an infant in Cuba, but a dissident or a baseball player here.  There

are trade offs both ways, not always very nice ones in either case.

 

J. Stauffer

 

 

Tim Gallagher wrote . . .snip

> >

> >True, but also to play against and with the best in the world.  Big bucks is

> >a consequence of being the best.

> 

Jo Grant wrote

> Cuba has the lowest infant mortality rate in this hemisphere--possibly the

> world.  Where are the big bucks that are the consequence of being the best

> at saving the lives of infants? Or are big bucks not always the consequence

> of being the best--just being the best at games?

> 

> j grant

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:49:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      to Marie, one of our list poets

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Thanks Marie, but I'm no less unblemished by anger than others right now.

 

I am glad to be back though. As you were preparing to get away to Louisville

- and by the way, I loved your travel tales - I was listening again, at

length to your reading on the tape you sent me. It had taken me a long time

before I would brave opening the package and listening to you read; I think

I was afraid of the power I might have to confront; they had lifted off the

pages of your e-mail and god only knew what they would be like out of your

mouth!

 

        No fear - one quiet night, late, it was a great pleasure to listen

to your calm, albeit with the anger showing through, appropriately, at

times. Have listened a number of times again since then (it was late

August), always late at night. They've been nice to have around as I've

withdrawn a bit from the activity of the Beat list. What a time to choose to

come back.

 

        Regarding your travels, the Albany Bus Depot story particularly

resonated. Five or six years ago, when I was more regularly travelling back

and forth to New York/Connecticut I picked up a guy hitchhiking right at the

border north of Plattsburgh. His car had brokn down between Montreal and the

border, he had to get back to Washington, D.C., and with a short ride to the

border he had waited for the bus to arrive so he could get on it and

continue his trip. His name was Bob or Charles Blue, black guy from the

States who had been living outside of Montreal.

 

        The bus driver wouldn't let him get on the bus; said there wasn't

enough room. Bob was pretty pissed off when I picked him up but with a nice

zen overlay! I was thinking to myself, "Goddamn racist bus driver!" Told him

I could get him as far as Albany. Somewhere near Saratoga Springs a

Greyhound bus hove into view and we decided it was the same bus. I said,

"Cool, we can meet him at the terminal in Albany!" We tucked right in behind

him and followed him in. I pulled right along side of him as the bus stopped

and Bob whipped out and ran up the steps as the door opened... "Got any room

for the rest of the trip?" It was great! The bus driver said " Where did you

come from? ....yeah, I think so.."  Turned out, by the way that he was black

too! I talked to Bob a few times over the next year and a half whenever he

was in town, till we finally lost touch. Road trips - I love 'em.

 

        Your poems that you post continue to find a quiet place in my poetry

mailbox. Keep it up. I'm still goin' to come your way one of these

days...I'll give you plenty of warning and will try to do it soon before you

take off west. I saw in Derek's post to Leon that you stopped in Noank on

your way back north...How is the old place?

 

                Antoine

 

                ****************

 

>i don't think i can do justice to just who glad i am that you are back and

>active among us, antoine, with your clarity and respectful attitudes,

>may we all take a lesson from you.

>mc

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:49:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: stock market

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

What great investing advice David. What do you charge to execute a trade?

...any disciunt rates for volume trades?

 

                Antoine

 

>sitting quietly doing nothing

>daylight savings time comes

>and the stock market crashes by itself ....

> 

> 

>what is the meaning of the stock market crash!!!????

>have you had breakfast?

>yes....?....

>do the dishes ....

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:48:52 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: stock market

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Antoine Maloney wrote:

> 

> What great investing advice David. What do you charge to execute a trade?

> ...any disciunt rates for volume trades?

> 

>                 Antoine

> 

 

just blue light specials.  the market seemed to respond rather well

today to this advice by the way :)

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

> >sitting quietly doing nothing

> >daylight savings time comes

> >and the stock market crashes by itself ....

> >

> >

> >what is the meaning of the stock market crash!!!????

> >have you had breakfast?

> >yes....?....

> >do the dishes ....

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >salina, Kansas

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:13:01 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      AG Spoken word (was Re: Apology to Keith...

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Bob Lewis wrote:

> 

> also seeking spoken word from ginsberg- i've got a couple clips from the

> internet, but can't find anything else.  does it exist?? and where should

> i be looking??

 

wonderful box set of cd's available called "Holy Soul Jelly Roll".  I

can't recall who produced it off hand.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

> thanks for the help!

> bob

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:15:34 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Jo,

> 

>It's a mixed bag.  If someone like Livan Hernandez really wants to be

>able to excercize all his options he comes here--for the money, for the

>chance to play the best, or just to be able to make his own choices.

> 

>Cuba beats us at dealing with infant mortality (which given our

>resources is inexcusable.)

 

I didn't say anything about this before, but I am very cynical about tis

statistic.

 

 >We beat them at offering a freer intellectual

>and economic climate for those with abilities.  Maybe one would rather

>be an infant in Cuba, but a dissident or a baseball player here.  There

>are trade offs both ways, not always very nice ones in either case.

> 

>J. Stauffer

> 

> 

>Tim Gallagher wrote . . .snip

 

Who's Tim Gallagher?

 

 

>> >

>> >True, but also to play against and with the best in the world.  Big bucks is

>> >a consequence of being the best.

>> 

>Jo Grant wrote

>> Cuba has the lowest infant mortality rate in this hemisphere--possibly the

>> world.  Where are the big bucks that are the consequence of being the best

>> at saving the lives of infants? Or are big bucks not always the consequence

>> of being the best--just being the best at games?

>> 

>> j grant

>> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:22:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Ballad of the Skeletons

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Rinaldo,

 

        Found the words buried in an interview that Steve Siberman conducted

with Allen shortly before his death.  Good interview at

 

http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/links/beats/ginsberg/ag_htwired.html

 

        I'll try to find "Amazing Grace". I heard another wonderful version

of this that he did accompanied by the great Cape Breton fiddler, Ashley

MacIsaac. Haven't tracked a copy of that yet.

 

               Antoine

 

I see now that Dave Redfern has beat me to the punch...here it is anyway.

 

 

Said the Presidential Skeleton

I won't sign the bill

Said the Speaker skeleton

Yes you will

 

Said the Representative Skeleton

I object

Said the Supreme Court skeleton

Whaddya expect

 

Said the Miltary skeleton

Buy Star Bombs

Said the Upperclass Skeleton

Starve unmarried moms

 

Said the Yahoo Skeleton

Stop dirty art

Said the Right Wing skeleton

Forget about yr heart

 

Said the Gnostic Skeleton

The Human Form's divine

Said the Moral Majority skeleton

No it's not it's mine

 

Said the Buddha Skeleton

Compassion is wealth

Said the Corporate skeleton

It's bad for your health

 

Said the Old Christ skeleton

Care for the Poor

Said the Son of God skeleton

AIDS needs cure

 

Said the Homophobe skeleton

Gay folk suck

Said the Heritage Policy skeleton

Blacks're outa luck

 

Said the Macho skeleton

Women in their place

Said the Fundamentalist skeleton

Increase human race

 

Said the Right-to-Life skeleton

Foetus has a soul

Said Pro Choice skeleton

Shove it up your hole

 

Said the Downsized skeleton

Robots got my job

Said the Tough-on-Crime skeleton

Tear gas the mob

 

Said the Governor skeleton

Cut school lunch

Said the Mayor skeleton

Eat the budget crunch

 

Said the Neo Conservative skeleton

Homeless off the street!

Said the Free Market skeleton

Use 'em up for meat

 

Said the Think Tank skeleton

Free Market's the way

Said the Saving & Loan skeleton

Make the State pay

 

Said the Chrysler skeleton

Pay for you & me

Said the Nuke Power skeleton

& me & me & me

 

Said the Ecologic skeleton

Keep Skies blue

Said the Multinational skeleton

What's it worth to you?

 

Said the NAFTA skeleton

Get rich, Free Trade,

Said the Maquiladora skeleton

Sweat shops, low paid

 

Said the rich GATT skeleton

One world, high tech

Said the Underclass skeleton

Get it in the neck

 

Said the World Bank skeleton

Cut down your trees

Said the I.M.F. skeleton

Buy American cheese

 

Said the Underdeveloped skeleton

We want rice

Said Developed Nations' skeleton

Sell your bones for dice

 

Said the Ayatollah skeleton

Die writer die

Said Joe Stalin's skeleton

That's no lie

 

Said the Middle Kingdom skeleton

We swallowed Tibet

Said the Dalai Lama skeleton

Indigestion's whatcha get

 

Said the World Chorus skeleton

That's their fate

Said the U.S.A. skeleton

Gotta save Kuwait

 

Said the Petrochemical skeleton

Roar Bombers roar!

Said the Psychedelic skeleton

Smoke a dinosaur

 

Said Nancy's skeleton

Just say No

Said the Rasta skeleton

Blow Nancy Blow

 

Said Demagogue skeleton

Don't smoke Pot

Said Alcoholic skeleton

Let your liver rot

 

Said the Junkie skeleton

Can't we get a fix?

Said the Big Brother skeleton

Jail the dirty pricks

 

Said the Mirror skeleton

Hey good looking

Said the Electric Chair skeleton

Hey what's cooking?

 

Said the Talkshow skeleton

Fuck you in the face

Said the Family Values skeleton

My family values mace

 

Said the NY Times skeleton

That's not fit to print

Said the CIA skeleton

Cantcha take a hint?

 

Said the Network skeleton

Believe my lies

Said the Advertising skeleton

Don't get wise!

 

Said the Media skeleton

Believe you me

Said the Couch-potato skeleton

What me worry?

 

Said the TV skeleton

Eat sound bites

Said the Newscast skeleton

That's all Goodnight

 

Steve Silberman: Thank you, Allen.

 

 

 

 

 

>friends,

>by the Campo Santa Margherita, in a shop window

>Allen Ginsberg looks at me, i brought the lion

>for real, worth buying, in the tracks there's

>as a plus for the CD italian edition "the ballad of

>skeletons" and "amazing grace" but there's isn't

>the lirycs, help!, i appreciate if one can post it,

>un mucchio di grazie in anticipo da

>Rinaldo.

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:38:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: AG Spoken word (was Re: Apology to Keith...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hal Wilner produced it and Rhino brought it out.

 

Antoine

 

 

>Bob Lewis wrote:

>> 

>> also seeking spoken word from ginsberg- i've got a couple clips from the

>> internet, but can't find anything else.  does it exist?? and where should

>> i be looking??

> 

>wonderful box set of cd's available called "Holy Soul Jelly Roll".  I

>can't recall who produced it off hand.

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

>> thanks for the help!

>> bob

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:58:29 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: AG Spoken word (was Re: Apology to Keith...

In-Reply-To:  <3456D3ED.FD5@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Bob Lewis wrote:

>> 

>> also seeking spoken word from ginsberg- i've got a couple clips from the

>> internet, but can't find anything else.  does it exist?? and where should

>> i be looking??

> 

>wonderful box set of cd's available called "Holy Soul Jelly Roll".  I

>can't recall who produced it off hand.

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

>> thanks for the help!

>> bob

 

 

Rhino Records. The text of the booklet that comes with the four CD's is at:

 

http://www.bookzen.com/holy_soul.html

 

Great reading and the CD's are absolutely wonderful. If you need Rhinos

address, E-mail, etc. let me know..

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:01:01 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

In-Reply-To:  <v01510100b07c156ccffa@[128.125.222.5]>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>Jo,

>> 

>>It's a mixed bag.  If someone like Livan Hernandez really wants to be

>>able to excercize all his options he comes here--for the money, for the

>>chance to play the best, or just to be able to make his own choices.

>> 

>>Cuba beats us at dealing with infant mortality (which given our

>>resources is inexcusable.)

> 

>I didn't say anything about this before, but I am very cynical about tis

>statistic.

 

 

Call the Reference Desk at your nearby public, college or university library.

 

Ask for: Infant mortality rates world wide. They have 'em.

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:12:00 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nils-Oivind Haagensen <Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>

Subject:      kerouacs dharma

In-Reply-To:  <"noralf.uib.873:29.10.97.05.14.52"@uib.no>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

THE TRUE MIND is like the Diamond

sound---accidental thoughts come & go

to try imprinting on its surface, but

they cant really...

(some of the dharma, page 168)

 

--- reminds me of emily dickinsons poem 701

which goes something like:

 

a thought went up my mind today

that i have had before

but did not finish - some way back -

i could not fix the year

 

nor where it went - nor why it came -

the second time to me

nor exactly what it was -

have i the art to say

 

--- a poem which i am sure kerouac knew

and an interesting simlarity between

dickinsons fixation and kerouacs evation

of thoughts

 

the thinking, the thinker & the thought-of

---all 3 equally empty & same, in

reality invisible

(sotd, p. 144)

 

--- so kerouacs budhism and dickinsons musing

sharing the same outlook

(one major difference in dickinsons final

verse when she refers to the first

and second thought as "the Thing," as in

she's met the thing before, according to

kerouac no division between man and thoughts

 

--- i believe in emptiness, i do not believe in things

(sotd, p.175)

 

 

--- so what am i doing? thinking? or nothing?

probably both!

 

nh

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 06:33:39 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      morning thoughts

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

the myth

 

Fire up Thunder Creek and the mountain --

                troy's burning!

The cloud mutters

The mountains are your mind.

The woods bristle there,

Dogs barking and children shrieking

Rise from below.

Rain falls for centuries

Soaking the loose rocks in space

Sweet rain, the fire's out

The black snag glistens in the rain

& the last wisp of smoke floats up

Into the absolute cold

Into the spiral whorls of fire

The storms of the Milky Way

"Buddha incense in an empty world"

Black pit cold and light-year

Flame tongue of the dragon

Licks the sun

 

The sun is but a morning star

 

                -- Gary Snyder

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:36:35 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: See ya later. . .

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

well, guys we've lost another friendly and informative soul again.

md

 

M. Cakebread wrote:

 

> Well, I've been back for a few DAZE and I'm outta here

> once again.  Too much crap for me!!!

> 

> Mike

> 

> PS. If anyone needs me, you know where I am.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:15:12 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: to Marie, one of our list poets

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

hi antoine: noank was wonderful as always. i met my 'surrogate' family there

many years ago when my mother was dying in denial. i lived on a 27 foot

unmasted sailboat (whchi regularly needed fiberglassing (like after every

rain). i met  a friend from montpelier there who gave me a ride home. it is

lovely and as beautifull and noncommercial as always.

i'm glad you've been enjoying my poetry. i have too. what fun., i try to keep

focused on the good, chide the rude, and keep truckin. in many ways i am

writing for my life. i am writing my way out of a profession i can no longer do

into the profession i've always been afraid to dare to aspire.

but i'm writing.

it's so good to know you are reading and listening.

i'm working on another tape, to include more recent pomes. would you like one?

and ps i'm going to do some readings out on west coast leave dec 15 return jan

18: will have email. of course. goin out to visit leon, jim, sherri, anne

marie. etc. leon is my host.

i hope to have even more poems aftwerwards. the trip out there is 3 days on the

train with 6 hr layovers in chicago: anyone know of anything decent near the

chicago train station? bookstore? pub? non plastic foodd?

antoine my friend, stay in touch and let me know if you want the tape. i need

to practice. i like to imagine my audience.

you are always out there smiling kindly

marie

 

Antoine Maloney wrote:

 

> Thanks Marie, but I'm no less unblemished by anger than others right now.

> 

> I am glad to be back though. As you were preparing to get away to Louisville

> - and by the way, I loved your travel tales - I was listening again, at

> length to your reading on the tape you sent me. It had taken me a long time

> before I would brave opening the package and listening to you read; I think

> I was afraid of the power I might have to confront; they had lifted off the

> pages of your e-mail and god only knew what they would be like out of your

> mouth!

> 

>         No fear - one quiet night, late, it was a great pleasure to listen

> to your calm, albeit with the anger showing through, appropriately, at

> times. Have listened a number of times again since then (it was late

> August), always late at night. They've been nice to have around as I've

> withdrawn a bit from the activity of the Beat list. What a time to choose to

> come back.

> 

>         Regarding your travels, the Albany Bus Depot story particularly

> resonated. Five or six years ago, when I was more regularly travelling back

> and forth to New York/Connecticut I picked up a guy hitchhiking right at the

> border north of Plattsburgh. His car had brokn down between Montreal and the

> border, he had to get back to Washington, D.C., and with a short ride to the

> border he had waited for the bus to arrive so he could get on it and

> continue his trip. His name was Bob or Charles Blue, black guy from the

> States who had been living outside of Montreal.

> 

>         The bus driver wouldn't let him get on the bus; said there wasn't

> enough room. Bob was pretty pissed off when I picked him up but with a nice

> zen overlay! I was thinking to myself, "Goddamn racist bus driver!" Told him

> I could get him as far as Albany. Somewhere near Saratoga Springs a

> Greyhound bus hove into view and we decided it was the same bus. I said,

> "Cool, we can meet him at the terminal in Albany!" We tucked right in behind

> him and followed him in. I pulled right along side of him as the bus stopped

> and Bob whipped out and ran up the steps as the door opened... "Got any room

> for the rest of the trip?" It was great! The bus driver said " Where did you

> come from? ....yeah, I think so.."  Turned out, by the way that he was black

> too! I talked to Bob a few times over the next year and a half whenever he

> was in town, till we finally lost touch. Road trips - I love 'em.

> 

>         Your poems that you post continue to find a quiet place in my poetry

> mailbox. Keep it up. I'm still goin' to come your way one of these

> days...I'll give you plenty of warning and will try to do it soon before you

> take off west. I saw in Derek's post to Leon that you stopped in Noank on

> your way back north...How is the old place?

> 

>                 Antoine

> 

>                 ****************

> 

> >i don't think i can do justice to just who glad i am that you are back and

> >active among us, antoine, with your clarity and respectful attitudes,

> >may we all take a lesson from you.

> >mc

> >

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:47:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: AG Spoken word (was Re: Apology to Keith...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I'll second what Joe Grant said. The CD notes - which I printed off

yesterday, are a great read, full of Allen's insights and the history of

their creation and recording.

 

at

 

http://www.bookzen.com/holy_soul.html

 

                Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:53:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Nick O. Seeya" <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: long walk to the mailbox

In-Reply-To:  <199710280633.WAA05795@iceland.it.earthlink.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:33 PM 10/27/97 -0800, you wrote:

>I'd still like to know why Attila Gyenis (Blue Ribbon Boy) keeps a >post

office box in Lowell if he hasn't been there for a year and a >half? - G.

Nicosia

 

Gerry, don't tell anyone this. I wouldn't want it to leak out. Between you

and me. Shhhhh... John picks Attila up in his corporate jet and flies him

to New England to pick up his mail. Probably so he can give him his weekly

stipend ($$BIG BUCKS$$) and edit his magazine for him. I am pretty sure

there are a few book deals in the works. I also heard mention of a movie

deal where Attila will play a cabaret dancer. As always those lucrative

Viking ads keep rolling in. I'll see if I can get more inside information.

Nick O. Seeya - A.K.A. (Philzi C.)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:58:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Source Material

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

 

Please don't tell me what my point is. I say it again. There is lots of

Kerouac material in libraries and Universities around the country. If

you want to see some lists, check out <<Dharma beat>> magazine.

 

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:34:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: long walk to the mailbox

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I have placed four of the Kerouac reviews of The New York Times from the

mid- to late 1950's on The Kerouac Quarterly web page. You may access it at:

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

                     Thank-you, Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:25:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: What do you think??

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Joe,

        I also have questions about the Cuban infant mortality figures and

I'm not reassured by the fact that I can find them quoted in the reference

material at my local library. Have to consider where the information flows

from. My questions certainly don't come from any base of knowledge; I don't

have any special insights into health care in Cuba.

 

        I believe that the US embargoes are wrong, but unfortunately I also

believe that they must be having some negative effects - on infant mortality

among other things. Fact is though that the siege mentality that Cuba has

been forced to adopt by the US actions is likely to drive them to sanitize

figures like this - just as has happened in other countries where the state

controls information. And none of this is to deny the facts of unacceptable

infant mortality, illiteracy and unemployment rates in our great

democracies...but they are democracies.

 

        Castro et al, on the other hand HAVE transformed Cuba from the days

of Batista and I'm prepared to be convinced that those extend to infant

mortality. Certainly, on the testimony of friends who have lived and worked

in Cuba, the quality and access to health care is admirable.

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:22:11 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      scope of beat-l

 

Over the last week or so, posts have drifted somewhat far afield.  There

have also been many postings that would better have been backchanneled.

I've received several reminders about this privately, including one

request that I reset the "reply" button so that all replys go the the

sender rather than the list unless specifically specified.   Rather than

do this, I suggest that all of us make a conscious effort to foucs more

closely on the lives and literature of the Beat Generation, our list's

topic, and to only send messages to the list that are aimed at all

listmembers.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:00:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      As for Poets

MIME-Version: 1.0

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As For Poets

 

As for poets

The Earth Poets

Who write small poems,

Need help from no man.

 

The Air Poets

Play out the swiftest gales

And sometimes loll in the eddies.

Poem after poem,

Curling back on the same thrust.

 

Af fifty below

Fuel oil won't flow

And propane stays in the tank.

Fire Poets

Burn at absolute zero

Fossil love pumped back up.

 

The first

Water Poet

Stayed down six years.

He was covered with seaweed.

The life in his poem

Left millions of tiny

Different tracks

Criss-crossing through the mud.

 

With the Sun and Moon

In his belly,

The Space Poet

Sleeps.

No end to the sky --

But his poems,

Like wild geese,

Fly off the edge.

 

A Mind Poet

Stays in the house.

The house is empty

And it has no walls.

The poem

Is seen from all sides,

Everywhere,

At once.

 

        -- Gary Snyder

        from Turtle Island section "For the Children"

 

I think i definitely need to put this in instead of one of my three

epigrams at the beginning of the Work in Progress "salina, kansas"

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:29:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Source Material

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:10 PM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Mark:

> 

>I don't think anyone questions that some materials are available.  That is

>not the question or the point.  You gloss over the fact that Sampas has, and

>this was confirmed to me in person by the librarian at Berkeley, attempted

>to force these libraries not to let people have access to any material that

>was originated by Jack Kerouac.  This worked at the UMass at Lowell.  I have

>seen comfirmation of the fact that scholars have been denied access to the

>archives there.  The question isn't what is out there.  The question is what

>is the estate sitting on, what has it sold and to whom, who stole the

>letters from U Mass at Lowell and why is John Sampas trying to keep people

>from accessing Kerouac's letters etc.  There are more questions, but the

>answers to these would be a good start.

> 

I am appalled that such inaccuracies originate from one who is supposed to

be educated in the subject of law. The estate has never denied access to any

of its archives but merely, to require permission for the xeroxing of

documents originating from Jack Kerouac. Your research with Berkeley, I am

positive, was taken out of context.

  As far as stolen letters. Quite simply, what letters? The library has no

record of whatever letters in question as being stolen. This was confirmed

by myself when I was informed by Gerry Nicosia that I was suspected (by the

library) in this. With a clear conscience I know that I did not make off

with them. The librarian had no idea, nor is there documentation. when I

approached UMass Lowell police, they had nothing to go on. They have nothing

that is like the inventory list that is similar to the list on Jo Grant's

site. If these are the letters in question, suffice it to say that there has

not been an attempt to recover them because the existence of them in the

library is disputable.

     On the other hand, the security in the library is marginal. I remember

a case of some letters, dating from the 1700's to the present, (among them

letters from Thoreau and Emerson) donated to the library through the

passionate efforts of a professor of the same institution. The letters were

placed in a box similar to a shoe box and left on a open shelf like many

other items of ephemeral value. The letters were taken away by the

Massachusetts Historical Society when it made a surprise inspection to see

how the letters were being handled. Hoards of Kerouac fans each year go to

this place to see, hopefully, Kerouac items. They also go to the Lowell

Public Library. Items, books and such, from the city library had all been

made off with over the years. As it has been highlighted before in a similar

thread, books of this subject are often stolen from book stores. Anyone

wanting something bad enough will go to its source and take it.

 

   Paul....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:14:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: naked lunch

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9710181918.A426-0100000@vifa1>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Sarah Sage wrote:

 

> I recently wathched a video in class on W.S.Burroughs, and he talked

> about his book "Naked Lunch" and how it was put together randomly from

> different bits and pieces of his life. I was wondering if it is sort-of

> like Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse five". I would love to hear anyone and

> everyone's opinion on this.

 

This gets into issues of non-linearity of narrative versus aleatory forces

in composition. Vonnegut constructs a non-linear work of narrative

fragments that all revolve around a singular plot. Naked Lunch, on the

other hand, has non-linear and aleatory methods involved in the assemblage

of the work itself, and as wsb said of NL: "I do not attempt to impose

narrative, plot, continuity" or any other arbitrary constructs of fiction.

Burroughs does not establish any singular frame of reference, like

Vonnegut does (ie the main character, whose name escapes me, it's been

many years), but rather constructs a book that is all figure and no

ground.

 

Hope this helps,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:20:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: wsb step-daughter?

In-Reply-To:  <971022124449_-526604709@emout14.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Sean Elias wrote:

 

> Reading H. Hunke's 'The Evening Sun...' he makes reference to a daughter

> of Joan Adams named Julie that lived with Joan and Bill in Texas.  She

> was then 5 yrs. old.  Does anyone have any info on what happened to

> this girl? Presumably she was sent to live with more responsible

> relatives after Bill killed her mom......Is she still alive???  Any info

> would be appreciated.

> 

>              s.e.

 

As far as I remember, when Joan was killed, the kids went to live with her

parents. Whether or not the step-daughter  is still alive, or what, I have

no idea. Billy, of course, wrote a couple mediocre books and died of liver

disease. He was one of the unfortunate few who really suffered for having

known Burroughs. A nuclear family was impossible in his life. It doesn't

surprise me that a man whose fiction advocated the end of the American

mom, pop, two kids and a dog life saw his only bizarre incarnation of a

family disintegrate in a sordid affair. Try looking her up in the index in

Literary Outlaw.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:27:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Hello !

In-Reply-To:  <344F7F20.72E2@egenet.com.tr>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Murat Balkose wrote:

 

> Hello Neil,

> 

>  The other two are:

>  1)Junky

>  2)Ghost of Chance

> 

>  I know it is strange but Naked Lunced is not published yet but it is

> translated and ready to publish.The other book "Cities of the Red Night"

> is not published either.

> 

>  I think I follow pretty good which book is/will published.I just read

> The Cat Inside and it is pretty good.

> 

>  Ciao,

>  Murat Balkose

> 

 

Hmm, I find that a rather odd three books to take as representative of

Burroughs' writing. Cat Inside and Junky are both Viking books though, so

perhaps that's the reason there, although I would choose The Western

Lands (also a Viking book) over those two. One odd consequence is that

readers of Cat Inside and Ghost of Chance would think of Burroughs  as

chiefly an animal loving sentimentalist, and would be shocked by any of

the earlier stuff, whereas people familiar with the bulk of his work

were shocked at the sensitivity of CI and GoC (perhaps shocked isn't the

right word, but surprised and intrigued).

 

just some random thoughts,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:30:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997102319254037@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> Check out Eric Mottram's book "The Algebra of Need."  It's a good place to

 star

> t.  I'd give you additional suggestions but I think you'll find other sources

 f

> rom different listmembers.

> 

 

As a starting point I'd recommend Jennie Skerl's _William Burroughs_.

Mottram is pretty heavy stuff, and requires a high degree of familiarity

with Naked Lunch and the cut-up trilogy. Skerl's is from the outset a

critical introduction and overview.

 

And if you want to get critical opinions from list-members, it's best to

post some of your own ideas to elicit responses.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:48:38 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: As for Poets

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

thanks dave, this is wonderful - mc

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

> As For Poets

> 

> As for poets

> The Earth Poets

> Who write small poems,

> Need help from no man.

> 

> The Air Poets

> Play out the swiftest gales

> And sometimes loll in the eddies.

> Poem after poem,

> Curling back on the same thrust.

> 

> Af fifty below

> Fuel oil won't flow

> And propane stays in the tank.

> Fire Poets

> Burn at absolute zero

> Fossil love pumped back up.

> 

> The first

> Water Poet

> Stayed down six years.

> He was covered with seaweed.

> The life in his poem

> Left millions of tiny

> Different tracks

> Criss-crossing through the mud.

> 

> With the Sun and Moon

> In his belly,

> The Space Poet

> Sleeps.

> No end to the sky --

> But his poems,

> Like wild geese,

> Fly off the edge.

> 

> A Mind Poet

> Stays in the house.

> The house is empty

> And it has no walls.

> The poem

> Is seen from all sides,

> Everywhere,

> At once.

> 

>         -- Gary Snyder

>         from Turtle Island section "For the Children"

> 

> I think i definitely need to put this in instead of one of my three

> epigrams at the beginning of the Work in Progress "salina, kansas"

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:53:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: naked lunch

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.95q.971029101420.11426E-100000@picard.math.uwaterloo.ca>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

my quotation of Burroughs should have read "story plot continuity" sorry.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:09:48 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      BASEBALL and Cuba and Beat???

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hello,

 

     I hate to be a pain, but what does baseball have to do with beat

topics?  I know Kerouac loved baseball and this country enjoys it as

well, but really can the three or four of you that discuss Cuba please

do so on a back channel.  Iyt would mean a lot to everyone else because

not many people as youcan see have joined in on your debate.

Thank you for considering this,

Keith

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:22:31 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: See ya later. /  post format

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Marie, (and Bill Gargan)

 

Sorry to see Mr. Cakebread go.  I'm wondering if a return to the interim

post format, where the default "reply" mode is a backchannel wouldn't

help restore civility to the list.  I, for one, preferred it that way.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> well, guys we've lost another friendly and informative soul again.

> md

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:16:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Ruski and the Jungle Rot Kid

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I've recently picked up two little items of note. One is a parody of

Burroughs by science fiction writer and multiple Hugo award winner Philip

Jose Farmer. It's called "The Jungle Rot Kid on the Nod", and is included

in the anthology _Alien Sex_ edited by Ellen Datlow. It begins:

 

"If William Burroughs instead of Edgar Rice Burroughs had written the

Tarzan novels..."

 

and continues in a sometimes convincing, sometimes hilarious parody of

WSB, the highlight of which (for me) was the appearance of the

apeomorphine treatment. Haha, nothing like a good pun.

 

I've heard many critics, including Norman Mailer, give Burroughs high

praise for his use of dialect, and his ability to speak in character in

his writing; one critic went so far as to say that Burroughs had the best

ear for American dialects since Mark Twain. I didn't really realise how

good Burroughs was at this until I read someone try to imitate the way he

could slip into characters and speech mannerisms like so many masks. This

is the one spot in the parody where Farmer fails miserably, and it acts as

a testament to Burroughs' ability in that area.

 

I highly recommend it to any Burroughs admirer with a sense of humour,

which should be all of them, since he's such a wickedly funny writer.

 

The other piece I picked up was included in _A Twist of the Tale: An

Anthology of Cat Horror_, also edited by Ellen Datlow. It includes a

Burroughs piece called "Ruski" that was originally published as a

chap-book in 1988 in a really small edition of < 200, I think. This piece

acts as an interesting counter-point to The Cat Inside, and any other

sensitive cat writings that have appeared in his work throughout the years

in The Western Lands, and My Education. In this story Ruski is a cat that

belongs to Gatsby, and spooks all the guests at parties until he gets his

brains bashed in. Not something that would have appeared in The Cat

Inside. It smacks of a dream story, although he never states it

outright. In a bizarre way, it was almost comforting to see Burroughs

write a twisted cat story involving his first beloved cat; it was an

indication that nothing is sacred (or true) and that he could turn his

dark fantasies on his own love, even if only for a moment.

 

Both are mass market paperbacks widely available for little money.

 

Cheers,

Neil

 

(the one-man official beat content machine ;-)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:29:52 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: BASEBALL and Cuba and Beat???

In-Reply-To:  <19971029160949.15568.qmail@hotmail.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Hello,

> 

>     I hate to be a pain, but what does baseball have to do with beat

>topics?  I know Kerouac loved baseball and this country enjoys it as

>well, but really can the three or four of you that discuss Cuba please

>do so on a back channel.  Iyt would mean a lot to everyone else because

>not many people as youcan see have joined in on your debate.

>Thank you for considering this,

>Keith

> 

 

You're right, of course. As I was going on about Cuba, etc. that fact was

right in the front of my mind, but I was down there while that revolution

was going on, had first-hand experience with why that revolution happened,

understand it, support it, live with the deprivation the Cuban people face,

and had to jump up on the "stage" and grab the "mic."

 

By the way, if any on the list speak Spanish and want to contact Cuban

librarians about any Spanish translations of Beat authors I'll provide an

E-mail address. But you must remember, that contacting a Cuban librarian

and asking about a book, is a felony crime in the United States--but only

in the United States, so maybe that will change soon.

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:35:52 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: An end to Responding to second-hand Sampas

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971029152901.006944e8@pop.pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>     On the other hand, the security in the library is marginal. I remember

>a case of some letters, dating from the 1700's to the present, (among them

>letters from Thoreau and Emerson) donated to the library through the

>passionate efforts of a professor of the same institution. The letters were

>placed in a box similar to a shoe box and left on a open shelf like many

>other items of ephemeral value. The letters were taken away by the

>Massachusetts Historical Society when it made a surprise inspection to see

>how the letters were being handled.

 

 

 

 

 It saddens me that we can't do to the Memory Babe Collection what the

Massachusetts Historical Society did to the Thoreau and Emerson letters.

The tape recordings contained in the Memory Babe Collection collection are

deteriorating and the invaluable interviews they contain may end up lost

forever. This wold be a tragic loss and the responsibility will be placed

directly on the special Colections Librarian and John Sampas.

 

One hell of a bitter legacy being responsible for the loss of thousands and

thousands of words from people who personally knew Jack Keroauc.

 

FINALLY: I'm going to try to make this my last response to anything

concerning the Keroauc Collection unless I'm able to respond directly to

John Sampas. Getting very tired of second-hand, tell-'em-I-said

information. If John Sampas can't speak for himself on this list, instead

of through others and lawyers,  responding is a waste of time. Time I'd

rather spend with the poetry of MC, DR, B, and the many others--and the

analysis.

 

j grant

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:30:24 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      from Memory Noises

In-Reply-To:  <199710262138.PAA19672@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                        On the Road                             by Jim Morrison

 

                        Miles and miles to the horizon

                        along sandroads

                        without landfall

                        crossed from occasions

                        of sin & fear

                        the rhythm of the wandering footsteps

                        toward the smile

                        of a stranger.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:57:49 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      thanks for Re: Ballad of the Skeletons

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997102901220257@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

many thanks to the friends who gave me info 'bout

the tracks #18 and #19 of The Lion For Real, the

sound of Ginserg's voice/word and the music in back have

a great feeling...

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:35:22 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tracey Daborn <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: Leavng the list

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:32:42 -0500 Rod Macy wrote:

 

> I don't need that popping up in my mailbox at home too.  See ya later

> and thanx for everything.  Maybe I'll be back one day . . .

> 

> Eric "Moose" Macy

 

NOOOOOO.

Don't go.

There are nice people here, honest.

But like everywhere on the Net.... things could be better.

Just ignore the twats.

Respect.

 

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"To know, and be not knowing."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:38:23 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tracey Daborn <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: Hacking the Bible

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:23:42 -0400 R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> From: R. Bentz Kirby <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:23:42 -0400

> Subject: Hacking the Bible

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> Someone brought up Hacking the Bible and the "code" discovery that

> predicts the future.

 

I was going to read the book, but then I decided that it was just another

 version of

the Kabbala.  If you read a book on langauge that talks about the Kabbala, like

 "The

Search for a Perfect Langauge" (Umberto Eco) you can see that by using a few

simple rules, practically any combination and prediction is possible, so that

 with

hindsight you can fit it back in.  Like Hebrew doesn't write vowels, so you're

 free to

insert them anywhere, whatever you like, until you find a word that matches what

you want it to mean.

 

. Australian mathematician Brendan

> McKay says it's a sham. "Anyone can program a computer to make

> coincidences appear to be meaningful," he says. Tune in as they face

> off.

 

Right.

 

Nice idea though.

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"God is dead, and we have killed him."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:02:44 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Inspiration

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

How Poetry Comes to Me

 

It comes blundering over the

Boulders at night, it stays

Frightened outside the

Range of my campfire

I go to meet it at the

Edge of the light.

 

        -- Gary Snyder

        from No Nature

 

I'll need help with this one.  Not being exactly an "outdoorsman", i can

only try to comprehend GS here by analogy.  The best I get is some local

parks for a literal understanding of what he's saying.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:04:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: cheap used books (was Re: Steal this book)

In-Reply-To:  <3456C211.37F@pacbell.net>

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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Michael,

> 

> I would have to check my recollection, but I believe Al Hinkle is in Los

> Gatos, Ca.  I recall a reference in John Cassidy's interview on Levi's

> site where describes talking to Al in a supermarket--a nice Beat

> interaction, totally anonymous, in a good old supermarket.

 

...in California, no less. ;-)

 

Thanks for the update. As I mentioned I'm reading the '45-'59 letters of WSB

for the first time and it got me to wondering where a number of these

peripheral characters have gone. It would seem then that Hinckle is one of

the few from that OTR road trip who are still with us.

 

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:23:25 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Inspiration

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David,

 

To get the image to work, just envision the brightness of the campfire,

which makes the surrounding darkness deeper and even more unknown.

Sounds out there.  Animals moving around. The Other.

 

J. Stauffer

 

RACE --- wrote:

> 

> How Poetry Comes to Me

> 

> It comes blundering over the

> Boulders at night, it stays

> Frightened outside the

> Range of my campfire

> I go to meet it at the

> Edge of the light.

> 

>         -- Gary Snyder

>         from No Nature

> 

> I'll need help with this one.  Not being exactly an "outdoorsman", i can

> only try to comprehend GS here by analogy.  The best I get is some local

> parks for a literal understanding of what he's saying.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:37:40 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      The John Cassady Interview/ Al Hinkle

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http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/JCI/JCI-Two.html

 

Michael Stutz,

 

I rechecked the Cassidy interview and my recollection was correct.  The

stuff on Hinkle and his wife (deceased) is toward the end of the

interview.  This is a wonderful thing on it's own, and hopefully I am

sending only the URL and not the entire text!

 

J. Stauffer

 

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        -Two.html"

 

<BASE HREF="http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/JCI/JCI-Two.html">

 

<HEAD><HTML><TITLE>The John Cassady Interview</TITLE></HEAD>

 

<BODY BACKGROUND="" BGCOLOR="#00007f" TEXT="#ffffff"

LINK="#cf00ff" ALINK="#ffff00" VLINK="#00cfff">

<META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="John Cassady,Neal Cassady,Los Gatos,Beat">

<CENTER>

<H1>The John Cassady Interview</H1>

</CENTER>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>WHAT'S UP</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>So what have you been up to lately?  Where do you work, what do

you do for fun, etc.?</I><P>

 

     Let's start at the beginning. First, the Earth cooled... <P>

 

     No, we'll skip to my birth in San Francisco, 9/9/51.  By about age

     three we had settled in Los Gatos, a small town in the foothills 50 miles

     south of SF, which I've gravitated back to ever since. While living in the

     coastal resort town of Santa Cruz for most of the '70's, what I lacked

     in career motivation I made up for in life experience and having fun.

     Along the way I harvested a son, Jamie Neal, born 8/18/75, who still

     lives with me while attending a local community college, and I also

     tried my hand at marriage on two occasions in different decades.<P>

 

     I moved back to Los Gatos and Silicon Valley in 1983 to pursue a career

     in (what else?) electronics and computers. The field wasn't my first

     choice, preferring to play guitar in rock bands, but, as they say,

     "when in Rome." My music career certainly couldn't be counted upon to

     pay the bills. So I've been fairly settled since then, having lived in

     the same house in south San Jose for the past seven years. <P>

 

     My '90s lifestyle is much more stable and less crazy

     than in years past. For

     the past 12 years I've been with Caere Corporation, producer of

     page-reading software and scanner systems, in (where else?) Los Gatos.

     It's a good gig and I'm reasonably comfortable.<P>

 

     And for fun? Sorry, no time. Actually, I like to hang out with my

     girlfriend Pat and read, watch flicks or whatnot. Occasionally I'll dust

     off the guitars to play with friends at open mike

     nights or recording sessions. Then

     there's always the unabashed self-promotion on the Net! (This is my

     first, honest). So that about sums it up in one, long paragraph.

     Pretty frigging boring, eh?<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>MUSIC</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>Tell me more about your music.</I><P>

 

     I listened to KEWB, Channel 91,

     out of San Francisco as a little kid. I dug stuff like Bobby

     Darin's "Splish Splash" and all the novelty songs like "The Flying

     Purple People Eater" and "Monster Mash." Everything by Ray Stevens

     and the Coasters. My parents were into

     cool jazz, of course, which was a great influence later. "Sketches of

     Spain" by Miles is permanently imprinted in my brain, after so many

     nights falling asleep to that album drifting in from the party in the

     living room.<P>

 

     At age 13, three pals and I bought Beatle

     wigs, put up posters around the neighborhood, and put on a "show." We

     set up a picnic table with Hi-fi speakers hidden underneath, and

     actually climbed up there and played tennis rackets (and a wash tub)

     while lip synching to the Beatles "Second Album". Dweeb city. The girls

     loved us. I had found my calling.<P>

 

     I met a blues-harp player in college, an ex-Marine just out of Vietnam

     named Matt Shaw. He learned blues harp by hiding in the ammo

     bunker under his fire base near Laos and playing Paul Butterfield's

     classic "East/West" album over and over. What a killer harmonica

     player Matt was by the time I met him. He lived in a little house out

     in the middle of this huge orchard where we made big noise without

     complaints. <P>

 

     We got pretty good and eventually quit college and moved

     to a little town called Felton in the San Lorenzo Valley of the Santa

     Cruz Mountains, surrounded by redwood trees and hippies. We named our

     new band The Feltones. Actually, "Those" Fabulous Feltones is what we

     decided on because it had a more notorious ring to it. And notorious

     we were. The drummer was a madman. Triple Scorpio

     coke dealer; need I say more? The girls loved him. He even stole my

     old lady for a while, but we were all friends. We played venues like

     the Catalyst in Santa Cruz, the Chateau Liberte and the Town & Country

     Lodge in Ben Lomond, all legendary bars back when SC was wild. I could

     write volumes. Someday I will; "The Adventures of The Fabulous

     Feltones."<P>

 

<I>What were some of your favorite Dead songs?</I><P>

 

     I saw them a lot in the Sixties, and then our paths didn't cross for

     many years, so I missed most of their later albums. In fact, I

     couldn't win any trivia contests after "American Beauty," although I

     listened to "Europe '72" quite a bit at the time. I loved their first

     album, and figured out every Dexedrine-propelled Jerry lick on it that

     I could as a wanna-be guitarist. "Viola Lee Blues," etc. I loved Pig

     Pen's version of "Love Light." We'd stand under him stoned at the

     Avalon Ballroom in SF and not even notice that he'd drag it out to 45

     minutes sometimes. Every track on "Workingman's Dead." Of course

     "Casey Jones." "Dire Wolf" especially reminds me of Jerry now (since

     August 9th). Dead standards like "Ripple," "Birdsong" and many I can't

     recall right now are great. I leaned toward the Garcia/Hunter

     compositions.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>KIDS</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>Do you have kids?</I><P>

 

     I'm a single parent with my twenty-year-old son living with me.

     I've been married and divorced twice. Pat and I have been an item for

     exactly one year now, the proverbial office

     romance. My son's name is Jamie,

     named for one of my sisters, and he is working and

     attending a local community

     college. He turned out pretty good, although I don't see

     much of him. He and his

     girlfriend come up for air every few days and I catch

     sight of him then. I was going

     to name him Cody, after the character Pomerey in Jack's

     Visions of. His middle name

     is Neal.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>BEING NEAL'S SON</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>Do you get a lot of recognition in your everyday life for being Neal's

son?</I><P>

 

     Naw. There's always been the occasional letter or call.<P>

 

<I>Has the interest increased recently, or not?  And does it bug you?</I><P>

 

     I love it. Who else gets to garner attention and

     strokes for something they

     had nothing whatsoever to do with? The only thing that's a little scary is

     having to carry the torch someday. My mother's got so many stories and

     knowledge that hasn't been shared. I don't think I can adequately

     represent the legend with authority, so most of the good stuff will be

     lost with her passing.<P>

 

<I>I've bragged to all my friends about getting e-mail from you already</I><P>

 

     ... cool!<P>

 

<I>-- but I'm keeping your email address to myself, or else god knows what kind

of weirdos you'd start hearing from (and that's just my friends ...)<P>

 

But it must be a funny thing being Neal Cassady's son, because while he is

so well-known and beloved in some circles, I would guess that most people

in America have never heard of him.  Just how much has being 'Neal's son'

colored your identity in life?</I><P>

 

     Being the son of an infamous "legend" is a constant source of

     surprise, amazement and pride. Surprise and amazement because, to this

     day, I can't believe how many people HAVE heard of him. Pride because,

     although I had nothing to do with the legend's conception, I agree

     with those that regard the man as something special on this planet. Of

     course, my perspective is somewhat biased, having loved him as a

     father as well as a hip icon. I feel fortunate that I was in the

     unique position to do both. <P>

 

     I've been blessed with the opportunity to

     meet so many fascinating individuals who operate on levels of art and

     wisdom that I admire and to which I long to aspire. Doors of

     opportunity have been opened, most of which I haven't taken advantage

     of, I guess for fear of exploiting something intangible that I don't

     think is mine to abuse. But the outpouring of friends and fans has

     always been a pleasant surprise over the years and is something I

     still think is great.<P>

 

<I>Beat aficionados like me have heard 'Visions of Neal' from many people --

Jack Kerouac (of course), Allen Ginsberg, Ken Kesey, Charles Bukowski,

John Perry Barlow, your mother, etc.  How about your visions -- can you

give us a memory or two we haven't heard before?</I><P>

 

     By far the number one question asked re: Neal is: "Did you ever

     know/see/remember your father?" And a good question it is, too,

     because he was everywhere else at once. The more I learn about his

     life from other sources, the more I'm amazed that I ever did see him,

     much less how much. It's simply astounding. He really was everywhere

     at the same time. How he pulled it off, we'll never know.<P>

 

     To me he was Dad, although admittedly he was absent more than I would

     have liked. But my memories are almost as plentiful as if I had been

     brought up by "normal" parents.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>DRIVING</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>What was it like being a kid in the back seat with "the fastest

man alive" behind the wheel?</I><P>

 

     Those are images I'll never forget. On Friday nights he

     would take me, and sometimes one or two of my best buddies, to the

     quarter-mile oval race track called San Jose Speedway out in the dusty

     fields about 10 miles from our home in Los Gatos. Driving there and

     back was most of the adventure, especially on the return trip, after

     he'd watch his heroes slide the midget racers sideways around the track

     all night. I can still smell the tire dust and fuel fumes that would

     drive Dad into a frenzy. He'd get so excited that he'd elbow me in the

     ribs and point till I was bruised, but I loved every minute of it. Of

     course, at the age of 10 or so, I was usually more interested in

     crawling around under the bleachers or going for an ice cream

     sandwich. I was always getting lost, especially when my friends came

     along. <P>

 

     While driving, he was fond of jerking the steering wheel to the

     beat of the rock and roll on the car radio. Chuck Berry was one of his

     favorites, and songs like "Maybelline" and "Nadine" fit him to a T.

     Two pals and I would be in the back seat and knock heads every time he

     jerked the car onto two wheels side to side going down the freeway,

     and we'd giggle uncontrollably and hold our sides. My friends thought

     he was about the coolest dad on the planet. Their parents probably

     didn't agree.<P>

 

     There was a guy named Roy who owned Los Gatos Tire Service who gave

     Dad a job when no one else would after he was released from San Quentin.

     Neal had the drug rap on his record which was, in 1960,

     tantamount to being an ax murderer. No one asked if he'd been sent up

     for two sticks of tea. Old Roy could have cared less. <P>

 

     Roy was known to have a drink or two,

     and died sometime in the '70s, but not before repeating some of his

     favorite Neal stories to a young man who worked there starting in

     about '72. I ran into this guy by coincidence when I had some tire

     work done at the present location of the shop, and after seeing my

     last name on the work order, he was glad to share some of Roy's

     stories with me. Roy's favorite was how Neal would drive his car down

     from our house, which was two miles up a hill from the tire shop,

     without the benefit of brakes, an almost obsessive pastime of Dad's. I

     believe this would have been the '49 Pontiac. Anyway, he would time it

     perfectly every morning so the car would bump up into the driveway

     (after having slowed it by rubbing curbs when necessary), he would

     then hop out in front of the garage doors, and the car would continue

     along the flat driveway, the door flapping shut, and on out to the

     back dirt parking lot, where it would nudge over a small mound so the

     front wheels would rock back and forth to settle into the dirt trough

     beyond. It never failed to amaze and delight Roy.<P>

 

     Another amazing

     story, which I can't verify but is great, has it that one night Roy

     passed Neal going the other way through town and waved. Neal threw the

     car into reverse and caught up with Roy, the transmission screaming,

     and chatted with him door to door while driving backwards, glancing

     back occasionally for oncoming traffic. Dad had a penchant for driving

     in reverse, probably because the steering is so squirrely, like

     driving a fork lift. He was proud of his downhill-in-reverse speed

     record on Lombard Street, the twisty tourist trap in SF.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>KEROUAC</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>You were Jack Kerouac's godson, and there are several references to you

and your sisters in the Kerouac/Cassady letters. What do you remember of

 him?</I><P>

 

     My memories of Jack are few and sketchy; mostly just images of him rather

     than conversations. My sisters would remember more. The images are hazy

     from when he was around a lot at the new Los Gatos house because I was

     under five. <P>

 

     I better recall being around age ten and going to Big Sur when

     he was living in Ferlinghetti's cabin in Bixby Canyon, driving down in

     Dad's new (to us) Willys jeep wagon, what a ride! Jack took time to

     instruct me on the nuances of packing a proper rucksack and keeping my

     socks dry. I confused him with Jack London when he was in his

     plaid-wool-shirt-in-the-woods phase. We would wander down the creek trail

     to the beach and stand in front of the immense surf which seemed to tower

     over us like a wall of water as in "The Ten Commandments." He would yell

     into the din with arms outstretched; I'd explore an old wrecked car

     resting on its top at the foot of the cliff, looking for skeletons. I

     had no idea he was loaded on wine and/or pot the whole

     time, and wouldn't have cared less.<P>

 

     He was funny and kind and gentle and took a goofy interest in our kid

     stuff that parents might find tedious. At least that's my impression after

     all these years.<P>

 

     Ginsberg, of course, was around a lot more in years to

     come, and I still see him whenever possible.<P>

 

<I>What was the first Kerouac book that you read?  What did you think of

it, and what do you think of him as a writer now?</I><P>

 

     I first read "On the Road" at about age 15. I dug it but forgot most of it

     until just this year when I read it again and really enjoyed it. I also

     read "Dharma Bums" as a teenager and thought it pretty good, but I was

     never much of a reader, being too busy goofing off, which I now regret. I

     made a stab at the rest of Jack's stuff and couldn't make sense of it. I

     frankly think it reads like drunken ramblings that one must struggle to

     comprehend. Such blasphemy from his Godson!<P>

 

<I>Was it obvious to you as a child that Jack had romantic feelings for your

mother?</I><P>

 

     I had no clue about an intimate relationship between Jack and my mom until

     I was grown. By that time I thought it was far out, to use the vernacular

     of the times. I was a baby when all this was going on, but I think Jack

     always carried the torch. Toward the end, he would call at like 3:00 AM

     drunk and ramble and rave, my mom trying to politely get him off the phone.

     I answered one night and only vaguely remember him crying "Johnny!" and "I

     have to speak to Carolyn!" I handed her the phone with a "whoa!" as she

     looked worried. We were more sad than surprised upon his demise.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>MOVIES</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>(I asked John about the new Coppola movie of "On The Road," and this led to

a discussion of a previous, less-than-satisfying attempt at translating the

Kerouac/Cassady legend onto film.  'Heart Beat' was based on the book of the

same title by John's mother, Carolyn Cassady.  I mentioned that I'd never

seen a copy of this book, though I'd read and enjoyed her later book, "Off

The Road.")</I><P>

 

     "Heart Beat" has been out of print for twenty years, so don't bother.

     It's actually only an excerpt of "Off the Road," anyway. A publisher in

     Berkeley chopped the juicy chapters out of her original manuscript,

     the menage a trois parts, and sold that, a travesty taken out of

     context. Then, as you know, Orion picked up the movie rights and made

     an even worse film of it. Nolte, I thought, wasn't as bad as the

     script and director. We were disgusted, especially since they promised

     some creative control.<P>

 

<I>But did you think Nolte captured your father at all?  Obviously you would

know best ... as I said in my review of the movie in Literary Kicks, though,

Nolte's schtick seems to be the surly, snarling

kinda-deep-and-sad tough guy, which is

not at all my image of your father. </I> <P>

 

     An astute observation. Nolte's whole persona is the antithesis of Neal's.

     Every film Nick is in, that's Nick. He talks

     and acts the same off the set.

     He certainly tried hard on "Heart Beat", though. He told me he

     had studied Neal a lot and based his

     previous movie's character on him. It was a war flick

     called "Who'll Stop the Rain?"

     Looked like Nick to me. The only time he came at all close in

     HB was the last scene

     when he calls Carolyn from the phone booth burned out.

     He sounded sad enough for

     that stage of life.<P>

 

     I flew down to watch them film, and fell in love with Sissy Spacek,

     what a doll she was. (Her husband agrees.) I was also very

     fond of Nick and his party materials, especially at the all-night wrap

     party at the Beverly Hills Hotel, where we hid at a

     corner table and blabbed

     for hours. We're both clean nowadays (this was 1977),

     but that was way fun.

     He wanted me to come up to his ranch in Malibu and

     ride dirt bikes and play

     some more, and like an idiot I declined and flew

     home, fool. I think I hurt

     his feelings. Never heard from him again. Well, we all

     have regrets. I just

     have more than others! I could write volumes.<P>

 

     Sissy also did her best to save the rotten script, and

     read the entire 1100-page manuscript of

     my mother's book to get into the role. Those two really hit it off, and

     during filming Sissy used the same approach with

     Loretta Lynn, studying for

     her next film, "Coal Miner's Daughter."  She's a pro.

     The thing about "Heart Beat"

     was they just bought the names and made up their own story, with just some

     highlights based in fact. John Byrum (writer/director) didn't do his

     homework and it showed. They could have made it authentic, almost a

     documentary, and still had all the stuff that sells: sex, drugs, violence,

     and it would have been the real thing. Stupid waste. My mother was so

     disappointed in the script that she wrote her own screenplay. Of course

     they didn't use it because they had already paid off Byrum. Oh well.<P>

 

<I>Who would be the ideal movie "Neal"?</I><P>

 

     The only actor I've seen that came close was Paul Newman in 1957's

     "Somebody Up There Likes Me," the Rocky Marciano bio. When he wore a tight

     t-shirt and smiled, he was a dead ringer. Too bad he's too

     old for the part

     now. There's a couple unknowns that my mother likes.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>DENVER</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>(John told me about a business trip to Denver, the city where Neal grew

 up.)</I><P>

 

     I flew to Denver on the 7th on business and wound up on Larimer Street

     among the gloomy brick ruins of my father's past, hoping for a glimpse of

     the ghosts of little Neal and Neal Sr.

     down an alley off the dark street. We

     took some clients to a downtown restaurant for dinner, one of whom was a

     Kerouac fan, and my colleague and I took a wrong turn trying to find the

     freeway out of town and to the airport. Suddenly we were in the worst part

     of town, amid old abandoned buildings and railway depots, but with rickety

     wood houses, shops and bars wedged in-between,

     still occupied. Then there it

     was, Larimer Street, as well as several other

     street names familiar from "On

     the Road" and "The First Third." Unlike the modern

     Larimer Square and other

     tourist traps up the road, this section didn't

     invite exploration that late

     at night, but I finally got to see it and get its feel, even from behind a

     rental car window. It was an unexpected treat.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>THE HAMMER, AND SILLY STUFF IN GENERAL</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>(During the period that John and I were conducting this interview I

received an e-mail asking if I knew anything about the myth about

"Cassidy's" habit of flipping a hammer and catching it, which Tom Wolfe

wrote about in "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test."  The person wrote:

"Somewhere, sometime, somebody said that Cassidy used the hammer as a practice

to sharpen his perseption.  Something about that it took about 1/30 th of a

second to percieve something happpening in the world and that he used the hammer

as an exercise to shorten the recognition time."  I thought this seemed a bit

silly, but forwarded the mail to John to see what he'd say, asking if he wanted

me to keep sending him stuff like this.)</I><P>

 

     Sure, I like to be bothered by silly stuff. Keeps me current.<P>

 

     As far as this guy's search, why anyone would look for meaning in this

     hammer thing is beyond me, but that theory sounds vaguely familiar.

     First we must correct his spelling on "Cassady" and "perception." I

     guess you receive mail from scholars and otherwise.<P>

 

     My take on the hammer is that by that stage of the game Neal was,

     sadly, so loaded up on crank that he simply needed something to fiddle

     with. He retained massive arm strength, and the hammer suited his

     ancient wheel karma railroad/car/tool trip. Tim Allen on steroids. <P>

 

     Also, he always had a penchant for juggling and sight gags a la W.C.

     Fields. Inept at real juggling, he would flip objects (pencils, etc.)

     and catch them on the same "handle" end. The game was to count how

     many flips he could go before missing and starting over at "1." He

     would frequently get into double digits, to the delight of us kids (we

     were easily entertained). He would also do this trick, a lot when we

     were young, where he'd balance on one leg, grab his ankle and leap

     over his other leg, nearly knocking his chin with his knee, and land

     upright again on one foot. He couldn't do it as well after his various

     railroad accidents stiffened his legs, so he'd go careening across the

     room on landing, YAAAA, and we'd giggle all the more. <P>

 

     But I guess this stuff isn't nearly as mystically legendary

     or mysterious as his trying

     to shorten his recognition time to 1/30th of a second or whatever.

     People can believe whatever they like if it helps get them through the

     night, right?<P>

 

<I>(Pat, who was on the cc: list for much of these conversations, chimes in

 here)

</I><P>

 

     PAT: Hey, at the least the guy has something to keep him busy. Kesey

     rambled on and on in Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test about 1/30 of a

     second being the least amount of time in which a human could perceive

     something. He said most humans took much longer with the exception of

     Neal Cassady, the fastest man alive. It's something along those lines.

     He also said that Cassady never dropped the hammer unless he wanted to

     make a point that something was happening and that people should pay

     attention to it. 'Course, Kesey was tripping his ass off quite a lot

     then and that's conducive to theories. I had friends who believed

     Jerry Garcia communicated with them at concerts by reflecting the

     light off his glasses into their eyes.<P>

 

     JOHN: Would that we all could make mistakes and have people go "oooh,

 aaaah,

     it's cosmic!"<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>KESEY AND BABBS</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>(The above led me to ask about Ken Kesey and Ken Babbs, the leaders (if

there was any such thing) as The Merry Pranksters.)</I><P>

 

     I consider Kesey and Babbs friends. I saw neither of

     them for about 15 years, although I kept track of them. Kesey was at

     my first wedding in 1975, then I didn't run into him again until

     around 1990. I've seen them both at various functions quite a bit

     since then. They're being more visible as of late. I took 8mm movies

     of Kesey and Neal, along with Ginsberg and others, when they'd visit

     our house in Los Gatos. They were an already infamous bunch that I

     wanted to record for posterity. Alas, those films have been lost. I

     next went to visit Ken on his farm in Eugene in '72 with another 8mm

     camera. Those films I still have and plan to transfer them to video

     someday.<P>

 

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>THE KEROUAC CD-ROM</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>Penguin sent me the new Kerouac CD-Rom last night (free stuff,

about the only perk I get for doing LitKicks) and in the Gallery section I was

pleased to see a photo of a bearded Neal surrounded by three nice-looking kids

including a cute and pudgy tousle-haired tyke ... John, that was you!</I><P>

 

     I haven't seen this CD-Rom yet, although it's all I heard about

     for months from my mother while they were working on it. They

     solicited a lot of material from her, and she was enthusiastic about

     helping them because they seemed genuine and they paid well for

     pictures and stuff. But in the end they used only a fraction of the

     stuff she'd sent, a typical disappointment. <P>

 

     "Pops" grew the beard after one of his railroad accidents when he

     was home for months recuperating. If it's the picture I'm thinking of,

     I was only months old. That picture has been in several books. I was

     so "pudgy" (read: fat) that it looks like they have rubber bands around the

     joints on my arms and legs, and I'm puffing my cheeks out. There's a

     later one with beard in our back yard in San Jose where I'm about two

     and have a buzz cut on my massive head. So flattering.<P>

 

<I>Neal looks great in a beard -- how the hell did he stay so fit?  Did he

ever eat?  Did he work out?  Somehow I can't picture him in a Soloflex, so it

must have been his work and all that legendary hammer-flipping -- but then

I know a lot of people who do physical work, and they don't look so

 great.</I><P>

 

        He worked out on free weights a lot as a

        teenager, probably at reform school and in Denver skid row gyms.

        He was born with a great physique and developed it early. Later it was

        work that kept it tight, sprinting in parking lots, walking miles in the

        rail yards, tossing truck tires in and out of the retreader. He didn't

 start

        the hammer schtick until shortly before his death.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>JAMMING WITH ALLEN GINSBERG</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>(One day John wrote me about an event in England.)</I><P>

 

        I called mum Tuesday, October 17, to ask how the big poetry festival at

        the Albert Hall went the night before at which Ginsberg was supposed to

        perform. She said he called her that day and was really chummy but had

        declined comp tickets because it was a benefit (jeez), but luckily a

        couple of her fans insisted on escorting her and bought seats at seventh

        row center. Allen comes out and after some "one-liners," one about Neal,

        he introduces his accompanist for the evening, a job I used to do on

        guitar when he'd be in the Bay Area. Out walks

        Paul McCartney, as you may

        have heard by now, and of course everyone is shocked that there was no

        media leaks beforehand and the place was

        half empty (only holds 4500). Did

        she go backstage afterwards to snarf an autograph

        for her Beatle-fan son?

        Noooooooooo! Oh well. "I told Allen I'd go to a book signing of his

        later in the week, so I left early, knowing I'd see him then." Christ.

        Anyway, she said they rocked the house and that I

        was in good company as

        one of Allen's accompanists. I wish I shared Paul's bank balance as

 well!<P>

 

<I>So you jammed with Allen Ginsberg?  Believe it or not, I actually find

his music very pleasant.  He has a voice like an operatic frog, but there's

some strange lilting-ness to it that I find very contradictory and interesting.

When did you play with him, and what did you play?</I><P>

 

     Allen was kind enough to invite me along on gigs he did during the

     seventies while visiting the Bay Area. I was living in Santa Cruz at

     the time. We only performed together a few times, but a couple shows

     stand out in my memory.<P>

 

     The first was when my rock band at the time was playing as house band

     at a nightclub called the Sail Inn near the Portola Avenue beach.

     Ginsberg somehow found us and showed up unannounced with Peter

     Orlovsky and others in tow. I convinced the band to take a break so I

     could get Allen up there to do his thing, and I joined him on electric

     guitar. He played his harmonium and Peter played banjo. I was used to

     Allen simply reading his poetry and wailing on finger cymbals, so this

     configuration was new to me. He told me he had learned the blues and

     jammed with Dylan on three-chord progressions, mostly in the key of

     "C." He had recently done local shows accompanied on guitar by Barry

     Melton of the Fish, and he now needed a new sideman as Barry was busy

     somewhere else. I said I'd be honored.<P>

 

     That first night we played about a half hour on slow, dirge-like blues

     chords over which he sang poems. I peered into the audience to see the

     club's owner and the few patrons that were left in attendance staring

     with their mouths agape. They hadn't a clue and we nearly lost our

     cush gig there, but Allen liked it and soon called me for others. The

     best was a benefit for Chet Helms and the Family Dog called the Tribal

     Stomp held at the Greek Theater in Berkeley in 1978. It was a big

     thrill for me because I got to meet all my hero bands from the sixties

     backstage. Allen even paid me; what a deal.<P>

 

<I>I'm a pretty big Beatles fan too.  My favorite is Lennon's solo albums.

I like Yoko's albums quite a bit as well.  McCartney is sometimes good ...

he had good taste in partners.</I><P>

 

     I've never listened to Yoko's stuff, but if it's anything like "Two

     Virgins," I'll pass. I was caught by the Beatles at the perfect age to

     experience the mania, and I confess that I never got over it. Paul,

     although more traditional in style, was a great songwriter when with

     John, but lost it without him. I don't think Lennon did as well on his

     own, either. I think as I did in the sixties: Lennon = God.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>THE REST OF THE FAMILY</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>What are your siblings up to?</I><P>

 

     My two older sisters still live in California and we get together

     whenever possible.<P>

 

     Cathy, 47, and her husband George live near Sacramento.

     Their three kids are now grown and off on their own. Cathy's a health

     care professional and teacher who moved out of the house as a teenager

     and got married so I didn't hang out with her as much as I would have

     liked as an adult. We're very close but only see each other on rare

     visits a couple times a year because of the distance between our

     homes. She's got a lot of Neal stories of her own of which I only

     catch glimpses when we're able to meet. She's happy to stay more out

     of the mainstream Beat lore network.<P>

 

     Jami, 45, and her husband Randy live near Santa Cruz.

     They have a daughter, Becky, 14. They lived in Los Gatos up until a

     year ago, so I've kept in fairly close contact with Jami over the

     years. "How's my sweet little Jami?" Jack would write to Carolyn in

     the early '50s. Cathy and I weren't exactly treated like chopped

     liver, mind you, but Jami was such a doll and everyone's favorite.

     They're both in Jack's books a lot (I was the runt of the litter and

     too young). Jami works in a dental office, and often wonders why she

     and Cathy rarely get mentioned in these Neal articles (thanks for

     asking, Levi). Jami has shared some amazing memories of Dad with me on

     occasion, like the time her boyfriend's band was playing The Barn in

     Scotts Valley (infamous psychedelic dance hall/Prankster hangout) and

     Neal was so high she had to look after him all night in the black-lit,

     postered catacombs of the place. Someday I'll record her tales.<P>

 

     Curt Hansen is my half brother by Dad's short-lived marriage to Diana

     in New York. Although I've only met him twice in person, he's a great

     guy and we keep in touch. He and his wife Debbie came out for a

     weekend visit in '94 and we had good talks. I couldn't recall our

     first meeting at Carolyn's in 1969, but then again I can't recall most

     of that year anyway. Curt is the program manager at radio station WEBE

     in Connecticut.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>EDGAR CAYCE</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>Jack and Allen Ginsberg seemed to have felt alienated when your

parents become devotees of Edgar Cayce's mystical philosophy.

At the same time, Cayce's influence seems to have been a good

one for Neal, and for your parent's marriage.  What do you

think of all this?  Did they teach much of it to you?  Is your mother

still influenced by it, and are you?   It almost seems, from what I've

read, to have been your family "religion."</I><P>

 

     Edgar Cayce represented a great alternative to the dogmatic

     Catholicism in which Neal was raised, and my parents shared his

     philosophy with us kids at a young age.  My mother insists it was not

     the man, but his "channeled information" that is important.  Apparently he

     was just a farmer from Alabama or somewhere.<P>

 

     They didn't raise us to be

     ignorant of the basics, though, and sent us to Sunday school first.

     That's us on the way to church on Easter Sunday, 1957, on the cover of

     "Grace Beats Karma." I wasn't fond of going to church, except for

     getting ice cream cones at Foster's Freeze next door after the ordeal.

     After about a year of that they announced they would keep us home

     Sunday mornings, but we had to listen to them for an hour as if it

     were school. This news was like being let out of jail when you're

     seven years old, and we heartily approved. They would read from

     different alternative books including Cayce and other metaphysical

     stuff, and in that context it didn't seem way out at all. Also, they

     weren't fanatics by then on Cayce or anything else, as described

     earlier by Kerouac when it was fresh.<P>

 

     We grew up with an understanding

     of Karma and reincarnation that I took for granted until I went to

     public schools and realized this knowledge wasn't normal among my

     peers. In that regard it was somewhat of a cruel shock to learn that

     everyone didn't believe this stuff, and I had to adjust to other

     points of view. Still, I don't regret adopting their perspective. They

     thought much in organized religion was distorted, except for the basic

     concepts that started them, like the Golden Rule. My experience since

     then has resulted in similar thinking.<P>

 

     My mother hasn't changed her outlook much over the years, but doesn't

     "preach" it much anymore. She seems secure in her knowledge of how the

     universe works. Her basic beliefs remain unchanged, which is

     comforting, and they still ring true for me.<P>

 

     I think after Jack had embraced Buddhism so desperately he was

     unwilling to shift gears again when confronted with Neal's Cayce rap

     and tuned it out. Just a theory; I was awfully young.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>"CHILDREN OF THE BEATS"</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I> (On November 5, the New York Times Magazine printed an article called

"Children of the Beats."   Written by Daniel Pinchbeck (son of Jack Kerouac's

one-time girlfriend Joyce Johnson), it featured profiles of John, Neal's other

son (by a different woman, Diana Hansen) Curt Hansen, Jan Kerouac,

Parker Kaufman, Lisa Jones and others.  This article caused a

bit of a stir with its tragic overtones -- the thesis seemed to be that all

the Beat writers had been despicable parents.  I wrote to John that I didn't

think the article captured what I saw as the positive side of his life.)</I><P>

 

     I agree with you about the article's overall negative tone. Even I came

     off sounding like I thought the whole era was trivial. My biggest

     beefs were that he only mentioned the book "Heart Beat," not "Off the

     Road," as my mother's principal work. Christ, it's been out of print

     for twenty years, and sales of "Off The Road" could have been helped

     by a mention in a piece with this kind of circulation. Also, no mention

     of my sisters, who, last I checked, were Neal's kids as well. And what's

     up with this "John Allen?" I don't recall calling myself that when we

     talked. I suspect he was trying to allude to the Kerouac/Ginsberg

     namesakes, but he never mentioned them! And shouldn't one say "His

     mother IS Carolyn Cassady," not "WAS?" At least his spelling was

     correct.<P>

 

     I think he was out for sensationalism in the Neal stories he recorded,

     similar to the Beats-suck-as-parents theme in the other interviews.

     The only story he bothered to print was about Neal's decline, although

     I gave him two hours worth of upbeat, funny ones. Pat noticed he

     wasn't writing in his notebook during these. Possibly because when he

     would earlier ask things like "what did you learn from all this?" or

     "how were you affected?", I'd blow him off and continue with stories

     (similar to our interview?) and he might have felt slighted. At least

     you were compassionate and let me ramble.<P>

 

     All things considered, I'd say it's about a C+. I've had worse

     showings, but certainly better. The piece in the Metro (San Jose) from

     about '88 comes to mind as more accurate (and pages longer). Too bad

     it was not as widely read.<P>

 

<I>One other thought I had -- since some of the other "children of the Beats"

don't seem like the type to have kids, it would have been nice to mention

that you have a son.</I><P>

 

<I>Speaking of which, what does he think of all this Neal publicity?  Did he

like the article?</I><P>

 

     Yeah, that would have been nice if the article had mentioned Neal's

     grandson. His name's Jamie, after my sister, cruel parents that we

     were. I came home last night and said his picture is in the NY Times

     so he's famous. That's a chalk portrait of him above my head [in the

     photo of John that accompanies the article] which my

     mom drew in London in '92. Jamie hasn't read much Beat stuff and probably

     doesn't understand what the big deal is, but he thinks it's bitchin' to

     have a famous grandfather and to see our name in stuff all the time.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>JAN KEROUAC</H3>

</CENTER>

 

     I think Pat early on sent you a description of when I spoke at Jan's

     benefit show in SF earlier this year. I got loaded and lost my wallet,

     which Kesey found and gave to Nicosia to return to me, Jeez. I was

     given a pretty cool photograph taken of Jan and I sitting together

     while giving interviews earlier that day which I can try to send to

     you somehow. An historic meeting. It's too bad her life's been rough

     lately. Makes me not feel so bad about my own life, though. We all have

     demons to exorcise. <P>

 

     I proposed to her at our first meeting in North

     Beach in the early '70s. She was lookin' good back then, and I

     thought, "what a perfect match-up!", historically speaking, at least.

     What would Jack and Neal have thought? I forget what her response was,

     but we never married, as I recall.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>BILL BURROUGHS JR.</H3>

</CENTER>

 

     Bill showed up at my mother's house in Los Gatos around 1973. At that

     time her place was party central, and I recall some crazy times during

     that era. I had just returned from a year's travel across the US, and

     my sister Jami and her husband Randy were living with Carolyn. I had

     been home about a week, sleeping on the couch because J&R had claimed

     my old room in my absence, when they threw a giant party in the

     half-acre dirt back yard. It was a Memorial day party, to celebrate

     all our gone "gone" friends.  <P>

 

     We built a big stage at the back of the lot on a hill.

     There were three rock bands and Allen Ginsberg did a long set,

     singing, chanting, and reading poetry. He had a broken leg from

     slipping on the ice at his place in Cherry Valley, NY, and sat

     cross-legged on a rug with his cast sticking out in front and incense

     burning. The police were mellow about the crowds and a good time was

     had by all. Wait a minute, what does this have to do with Burroughs?

     He wasn't even there yet. I know, background color about my mom's

     house in those days. I soon moved to Santa Cruz, but the next spring I

     found they had built a huge vegetable garden in the back yard complete

     with grass trails through it with benches and bird baths and stuff. <P>

 

     There under a tree toward the back was this short, stocky guy with

     long hair and a scruffy beard with a gallon of red wine in his lap

     talking to Jami. They were half lit and laughing a lot, so naturally I

     joined them. Bill Jr. was only working on his first liver in those

     days and was quite lucid and witty. Everyone seemed to migrate

     to Carolyn's at one time or another. We would have wild all-night

     discussions in the living room. My mother recently sent me an audio

     tape she found of one of those nights, but I was so high that poor

     Bill couldn't get a word in edgewise, I was talking so much. It's an

     embarrassment, except for one stretch where we're all talking at once,

     Mom included, while completely ignoring the others. That part's funny.<P>

 

     Anyway, I didn't see Bill for a year or two. When he arrived at my

     house in Santa Cruz he looked thin and wasted. The first thing he did

     was lift up his shirt to show me the scar, more like a hole, left from

     his recent liver transplant, a new procedure at the time which he had

     just received in Denver. I nearly hurled, but helped myself to the jars

     full of Valium which he spread on the kitchen table. He was

     understandably tired and our subsequent discussions weren't nearly as

     lively as in the past. The great local writer William J. Craddock

     sought him out and had us over for dinner. Craddock was a big fan of

     Neal's and seemed to enjoy having the second generation converge at his

     house.<P>

 

     The sad day came when Bill was feeling so poorly that I insisted on

     driving him to the ER at Dominican Hospital in Santa Cruz. They

     immediately whisked him back to Denver and within days he was dead.

     Although his father's money gave him a second chance with a

     transplant, I think it was too little, too late.  He was one of the

     casualties of the tragic side of these lost artist types. Daniel

     Pinchbeck was just twenty years too late to interview Bill Jr.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>THE "DUNKELS"</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>(Ed and Galatea Dunkel were two of the more colorful characters in

"On The Road."  Like most of Kerouac's characters they had their real

life equivalents, and Al and Helen Hinkle were still close friends of

Carolyn Cassady's when Helen died last year.)</I><P>

 

     I ran into Al Hinkle in the supermarket last night. On the way home I

     flashed on the fact that the suburban ladies pushing shopping carts

     around us had no clue that Big Ed Dunkel from "On the Road" was

     chatting with Dean Moriarty Jr. in the frozen food isle (nor would

     they have cared). He's in his late 60's and looks great; just got back

     from a month in Denver visiting an older sister in Neal's old

     neighborhood. He lost his wife Helen to cancer last year which was

     heavy for all of us. <P>

 

<I> That blows my mind about Big Ed Dunkel ... I didn't know "Galatea" had died,

either.  I always enjoyed that part in the book where she chews your father

out and he goes and sits on the stoop for a few minutes considering it, then,

without a word, gets up and continues with his life.  Sometimes you gotta just

do that ...</I><P>

 

     Helen Hinkle was an extremely wise woman. I liked that scene, too.

     It's almost excruciating to read because she's so right and Dean is so

     foolish. Helen called it like it is. I was so grateful that I looked

     her up in recent years and had long talks with her about them all in

     the days, not knowing her time would be short. I almost missed her

     altogether. They've lived in the same house for over forty years, and

     just a few miles from my current address, but I just never got around

     to seeing them much until about three years ago. The Metro also did an

     excellent piece on the Hinkles a couple years ago. They were a big

     part of it all and no one knows. Helen was so funny. She liked to

     remind me that she used to change my diapers when I was a baby, jeez.

     She'd sit there and smoke cigarettes, drink coffee and curse during

     her stories; what a character. Al is more of a mellow talker and a bit

     long-winded, but has some great stuff from the Denver days.<P>

 

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="jcass.gif" WIDTH=108 HEIGHT=94>

<H3>THIS PAGE</H3>

</CENTER>

 

<I>I told John I was going to illustrate this interview with a photo his

girlfriend Pat had sent me, showing John in a "far-out" Greg-Brady-style

shirt at a party.</I><P>

 

Jeez, I look like a dork-o-rama, but go ahead. <P>

 

<CENTER>

<A HREF="JCI-Three.html">On to Part Three</A><P>

<A HREF="JCInterview.html">Back to Top</A><P>

</CENTER>

 

<A HREF="../LitKicks.html">Literary Kicks</A><BR> by

<A HREF="../HomePages/LeviAsher.html">Levi Asher</A><P>

 

</BODY></HTML>

 

--------------B725B2C67CE--

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:53:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Goofball Blues

 

Kerouac

Goofball Blues

 

I'm just a human being with a lot of

shit on my heart

 

My ambition was not to be a great

lover,

but that's what I am

Even in dreams, fiancees

of other men

ball on my joint

And I am the Flying Horse

of Mien Mo

When I am an old man

my grave will rot me

The one I loved were crazy

without knowing why

When I am old I'll yawn

in the Flannel Grave

 

>From Pomes All Sizes

published by City Lights

with a great painting by Ferlinghetti

for the cover. The Inroduction by Ginsberg starts

out:

 

He was Poet;- "You guys call yourselves poets, write little short

lines, I a poet but I wrtie line paragraphs and pages and many pages long."

Quoting Jack from a letter written in the mid 50's in Mexico City

 

 

yrs

Gary Mex Glazner

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:53:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: AG Spoken word (was Re: Apology to Keith...

Comments: To: jgrant@bookzen.com

 

Dear Beat List and Bob Lewis,

 

Lewis Wrote<< also seeking spoken word from ginsberg- i've got a couple clips

from the internet, but can't find anything else.  does it exist?? and where

should

i be looking??>>

 

Holy Soul Jelly Roll

listing price is 39.98

 

Special Beat List Price:

30.00 including shipping, handling and tax.

>From Words On Wheels

We can do credit card over the phone or email

or if you prefer we can send COD and

you can pay by check.

 

I have some in stock so

you would recieve in a few days

Let me know if you are interested.

 

Yrs

Gary Mex Glazner

Words On Wheels

85 Stanyan Street and Other Sorrows

415.892.0158 office

Headless Buddha

http://www.well.com/user/poetmex

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:08:09 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: BASEBALL and Cuba and Beat???

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:09 AM 10/29/97 PST, you wrote:

>Hello,

> 

>     I hate to be a pain, but what does baseball have to do with beat

>topics?  I know Kerouac loved baseball and this country enjoys it as

>well, but really can the three or four of you that discuss Cuba please

>do so on a back channel.  Iyt would mean a lot to everyone else because

>not many people as youcan see have joined in on your debate.

>Thank you for considering this,

>Keith

> 

 

What does your poem have to do with beat?

 

You see it is a two way street.  Your post started it and it had nothing to

do with beat.

 

But no one threw stones at you or your glass house.

 

You see what I mean?

 

I think there are always topics that fall off the beaten track but I do not

complain (except in instances like this where I address another complaint).

 

I believe things take care of themselves on a list like this and work

themselves out naturally.

 

For example I wasn't going reply to the beat-l about Cuba or the integrity

of the statistics as it drifted away from beat too much.  I was going to

reply to Jo saying pretty much what Antoine wrote.

 

But in perspective the mistake was relpying to the original "what do you

think" as it was all ready non-topic.

 

But I am for letting the conversations go and play out.  I figure Keroac and

Burroughs and Ginsberg and Lucien Carr and the other folks hanging out

drifted "off topic" in a lot of ways in the course of their conversations.

 

I like when folks post a poem and ask "what do you think?", but it is

definately not beat-related.

 

So I say keep asking what do you think and if it rolls around to foreign

policy or foreign cars, like cool daddyo

>------------------------------------------------------------

>Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

>http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

>------------------------------------------------------------

> 

> 

>______________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:40:12 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tracey Daborn <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      New List?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

Idea:

 

A new list, for people that want to squabble about the estate, and insult each

 other.

So that they don't have to waste my time doing it.

Just a suggestion...

 

Peace?

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"A Bear of Very Little Brain"

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:09:28 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: wsb step-daughter?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:20 AM 10/29/97 -0500, you wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Sean Elias wrote:

> 

>> Reading H. Hunke's 'The Evening Sun...' he makes reference to a daughter

>> of Joan Adams named Julie that lived with Joan and Bill in Texas.  She

>> was then 5 yrs. old.  Does anyone have any info on what happened to

>> this girl? Presumably she was sent to live with more responsible

>> relatives after Bill killed her mom......Is she still alive???  Any info

>> would be appreciated.

>> 

>>              s.e.

> 

>As far as I remember, when Joan was killed, the kids went to live with her

>parents. Whether or not the step-daughter  is still alive, or what, I have

>no idea. Billy, of course, wrote a couple mediocre books

 

 

 

No.  I disagree.  I think Billy's boooks were good.  In some ways a lot

better than huis father's.

 

 

 

and died of liver

>disease. He was one of the unfortunate few who really suffered for having

>known Burroughs. A nuclear family was impossible in his life. It doesn't

>surprise me that a man whose fiction advocated the end of the American

>mom, pop, two kids and a dog life saw his only bizarre incarnation of a

>family disintegrate in a sordid affair. Try looking her up in the index in

>Literary Outlaw.

> 

>Neil

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:10:43 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: BASEBALL and Cuba and Beat???

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

So who's going win the superbowell?

 

 

At 10:29 AM 10/29/97 -0600, you wrote:

>>Hello,

>> 

>>     I hate to be a pain, but what does baseball have to do with beat

>>topics?  I know Kerouac loved baseball and this country enjoys it as

>>well, but really can the three or four of you that discuss Cuba please

>>do so on a back channel.  Iyt would mean a lot to everyone else because

>>not many people as youcan see have joined in on your debate.

>>Thank you for considering this,

>>Keith

>> 

> 

>You're right, of course. As I was going on about Cuba, etc. that fact was

>right in the front of my mind, but I was down there while that revolution

>was going on, had first-hand experience with why that revolution happened,

>understand it, support it, live with the deprivation the Cuban people face,

>and had to jump up on the "stage" and grab the "mic."

> 

>By the way, if any on the list speak Spanish and want to contact Cuban

>librarians about any Spanish translations of Beat authors I'll provide an

>E-mail address. But you must remember, that contacting a Cuban librarian

>and asking about a book, is a felony crime in the United States--but only

>in the United States, so maybe that will change soon.

> 

>j grant

> 

>        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

>                        FREE

>                           at

>                            BookZen

>                        http://www.bookzen.com

>             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:03:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Hacking the Bible

In-Reply-To:  <ECS9710291723H@smtp.uea.ac.uk>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Not sure who posted this originally, but I'd love to get a source to look

up the quotation from this Brendan McKay fellow. Anyone?

 

Neil

 

> . Australian mathematician Brendan

> > McKay says it's a sham. "Anyone can program a computer to make

> > coincidences appear to be meaningful," he says. Tune in as they face

> > off.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:34:55 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Inspiration

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

David,

 

A little Lew Welch in counterpoint to the Snyder pome on poetry

 

(WHENEVER I MAKE A NEW POEM)

 

Whenever I make a new poem,

the old ones sound like gibberish.

How can they ever make sense in a book?

 

Let them say:

"He seems to have lived in the mountains.

He travelled now and then.

When he apeared in cities,

he was almost always drunk.

 

"Most of his poems are lost.

Many of those we have were found in

letters to his friends.

 

"He had a very large number of friends."

 

 

(THE IMAGE AS HEXAGRAM)

 

The image, as in a Hexagram:

 

The hermit locks his door against the blizzard.

He keeps the cabin warm.

 

All winter he sorts out all he has.

What was well started shall be finished.

What was not, should be thrown away.

 

In spring he emerges with one garment

and a single book.

 

The cabin is very clean.

 

Except for that, you'd never guess

anyone lived there.

 

 

(I SAW MYSELF)

 

I saw myself

a ring of bone

in the clear stream

of all of it

 

and vowed,

always to be open to it

that all of it

might flow through

 

and then heard

"ring of bone" where

ring is what a

 

bell does.

 

(all from "Hermit Poems", Ring of Bone)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:38:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Amazing Grace....

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Rinaldo,

 

        Did someone track down the lyrics of Ginsberg's "Amazing GRace?" If

so. I'd love a copy, backchannel. I listen to the EP CD frequently and love

it. I couldn't find them when I looked on the WEB, but I did discover that

the composition was motivated by Ed Sanders (once of the Fugs) who asked a

number of fellow artists to come up with alternative lyrics. Anyone know

anything more about this?

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:45:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Neil re: Bill Burroughs jr.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Neil,

 

        Saw your comment about young Bill Burroughs' "mediocre books"....is

that pretty much the case? I saw a copy of "Kentucky Ham" and was wondering

about getting it just today. Can you tell me anything about it. I recently

bought Jan Kerouac's "Baby Driver" and thought I might let my completist

instincts run riot.

 

                Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:42:56 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Inspiration

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

james,

 

groggy mid=siesta thinking.  (your address is one of those which

defaults the old way BTW)

 

James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> David,

> 

> To get the image to work, just envision the brightness of the campfire,

> which makes the surrounding darkness deeper and even more unknown.

> Sounds out there.  Animals moving around. The Other.

> 

> J. Stauffer

 

Sun in south window, microwave beeping poems, the world outside #23 as

far away as Tangier, Crickets outside my window, cars move by to and

fro, books scattered two and fro, the Other.  I know the Other

intimately.

 

thanks for the help....david on way back to siesta of rip van winkle

proportions.

 

dbr

> 

> RACE --- wrote:

> >

> > How Poetry Comes to Me

> >

> > It comes blundering over the

> > Boulders at night, it stays

> > Frightened outside the

> > Range of my campfire

> > I go to meet it at the

> > Edge of the light.

> >

> >         -- Gary Snyder

> >         from No Nature

> >

> > I'll need help with this one.  Not being exactly an "outdoorsman", i can

> > only try to comprehend GS here by analogy.  The best I get is some local

> > parks for a literal understanding of what he's saying.

> >

> > david rhaesa

> > salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:48:48 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Amazing Grace....

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Antoine Maloney wrote:

> 

> Rinaldo,

> 

>         Did someone track down the lyrics of Ginsberg's "Amazing GRace?" If

> so. I'd love a copy, backchannel. I listen to the EP CD frequently and love

> it. I couldn't find them when I looked on the WEB, but I did discover that

> the composition was motivated by Ed Sanders (once of the Fugs) who asked a

> number of fellow artists to come up with alternative lyrics. Anyone know

> anything more about this?

> 

>         Antoine

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

 

Me too!

 

david rhaesa

nita #23

500 east crawford st.

salina, Kansas 67401

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:04:34 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Gargon on Cuba

In-Reply-To:  <199710291755.LAA22319@msn.globaldialog.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Jo, are you sure it's a felony to contact cuba about books or journals.

>As a librarian collecting spanish language materials, I've had

>correspondence with Cubans on book and journal orders several times.

>The only problem I've encountered is paying for the stuff in a different

>currency.

 

Just got a clarification.... No sanctions on E-mail to Cuba.  There once

was, but no more. Ditto for phone calls I'm told. However, the

clarification is not authoritative. Have requested authoritative

clarification from Sen. Wellstones's office.

 

will pass info on.

 

j grant

 

           Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                           FREE

                             at

                               BookZen

                          http://www.bookzen.com

                402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:08:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Inspiration

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

David,

 

        If you haven't done it, to be out, really in the wild, on a moonless

night is atounding and great....and can be fearsome. One can hardly believe

the inky blackness of a cloud covered moonless night. In 1970 when I was

doing lots of hitchhiking, my city eyes and sensibilities had a few shocks.

I can remember waking up on a roadside in northern Ontario sealed in my

sleeping bag to escape the mosquitoes; it had turned cool, the mosquitos

were gone and the moon was long gone; the sky was SO filled with stars... I

just lay there gaping and turned and woke Mike to look as well.

 

        A month later we we driving through Redwood National Forest at night

- moonless. I asked if we could stop on the chance I could find a few

Redwood or Sequoia cones. When the door closed on the van it was as if a

black velvet bag had been pulled over my head. I looked up and could see a

tiny, tiny ribbon of stars way overhead...just befpore I toppled over into

the roadside ditch.

 

        We had just come away from San Francisco and I so wish I had been

clued into the Beats then.

 

        I can certainly imagine what Snyder describes with his "I go to meet

it at the edge of the light."

 

        Antoine

 

                ****************

 

from David Rhaesa

 

>How Poetry Comes to Me

> 

>It comes blundering over the

>Boulders at night, it stays

>Frightened outside the

>Range of my campfire

>I go to meet it at the

>Edge of the light.

> 

>        -- Gary Snyder

>        from No Nature

> 

>I'll need help with this one.  Not being exactly an "outdoorsman", i can

>only try to comprehend GS here by analogy.  The best I get is some local

>parks for a literal understanding of what he's saying.

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:17:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: BASEBALL and Cuba and Beat???

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Timothy

 

        "like cool daddyo"              ....now that's Beat for sure!!

 

        Antoine

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:39:23 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Al Hinkle

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

To answer the question about Al Hinkle, the real life

Ed Dunkel of On The Road -- he died about a year ago.

He and his wife Helen (Galatea Dunkel) were still living

in the San Jose/Los Gatos area, and were still good

friends with Carolyn Cassady and the Cassady kids at the

end, which is a sort of interesting fact given the odd

way they met during that cross-country trip that is now

Beat legend ...

 

-------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                    |

|                                                     |

|     Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|      (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                     |

|          "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"       |

|            (a real book, like on paper)             |

|               also at http://coffeehousebook.com    |

|                                                     |

|                   *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                     |

|                            "Not sunglasses, shades" |

-------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:54:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Inspiration

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Antoine Maloney wrote:

> 

> David,

> 

>         If you haven't done it, to be out, really in the wild, on a moonless

> night is atounding and great....and can be fearsome. One can hardly believe

> the inky blackness of a cloud covered moonless night. In 1970 when I was

> doing lots of hitchhiking, my city eyes and sensibilities had a few shocks.

> I can remember waking up on a roadside in northern Ontario sealed in my

> sleeping bag to escape the mosquitoes; it had turned cool, the mosquitos

> were gone and the moon was long gone; the sky was SO filled with stars... I

> just lay there gaping and turned and woke Mike to look as well.

> 

>         A month later we we driving through Redwood National Forest at night

> - moonless. I asked if we could stop on the chance I could find a few

> Redwood or Sequoia cones. When the door closed on the van it was as if a

> black velvet bag had been pulled over my head. I looked up and could see a

> tiny, tiny ribbon of stars way overhead...just befpore I toppled over into

> the roadside ditch.

> 

>         We had just come away from San Francisco and I so wish I had been

> clued into the Beats then.

> 

>         I can certainly imagine what Snyder describes with his "I go to meet

> it at the edge of the light."

> 

>         Antoine

> 

>                 ****************

> 

> from David Rhaesa

> 

> >How Poetry Comes to Me

> >

> >It comes blundering over the

> >Boulders at night, it stays

> >Frightened outside the

> >Range of my campfire

> >I go to meet it at the

> >Edge of the light.

> >

> >        -- Gary Snyder

> >        from No Nature

> >

> >I'll need help with this one.  Not being exactly an "outdoorsman", i can

> >only try to comprehend GS here by analogy.  The best I get is some local

> >parks for a literal understanding of what he's saying.

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >salina, Kansas

> >

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

 

Antoine,

 

I have some memories of the type you are describing and the inspiration

you mention does come to me.  It is just that the place -- for now --

must be different.  My home is my forest right now the town a darkness I

am learning to traverse.  Memories of last outing with a poetess and

dear friend Joy Golisch haunt me.  The friendship turned sour and i

became perhaps the ugliest feeling being in my entire memory.  Feeling

totally betrayed, I reacted by changing roles from being Joy's secretary

to finding my own voice.  So in some ways many poems written anywhere

come from the outdoor inspirations.  The night Allen Ginsberg died i

made a phone call and was told that Joy had died of leukemia.  Still

makes me sad that I didn't mend fences before fate cast that straw.

Somewhere there is a poem "I think I fell in love with her name" which

is close as I could come to a resolution of a vicious cold war in the

poetic community of the Quad Cities.  I guess it still haunts me now --

though i thought it was long past.  Along with that my world collapsed

before and after that spectacle many times and as the Work in Progress

probably begins to make clear the living in this world is a new art

being learned all over again.  The analogies i drew make sense to me.

The microwave speaks in ways that i can't quite describe right now and I

woke from a siesta hearing the thermostat tell me of tales to tell.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:59:49 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:      Carolyn Cassady (was: Al Hinkle)

In-Reply-To:  <199710291939.LAA09986@netcom.netcom.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Which reminds me, does Carolyn make any public appearances? Is she

involved with anything on the Internet? Is it possible for fans/students

to get in touch with her, or is she reclusive?

Anne Sneddon

 

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Levi Asher wrote:

 

> To answer the question about Al Hinkle, the real life

> Ed Dunkel of On The Road -- he died about a year ago.

> He and his wife Helen (Galatea Dunkel) were still living

> in the San Jose/Los Gatos area, and were still good

> friends with Carolyn Cassady and the Cassady kids at the

> end, which is a sort of interesting fact given the odd

> way they met during that cross-country trip that is now

> Beat legend ...

> 

> -------------------------------------------------------

> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                    |

> |                                                     |

> |     Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

> |      (the beat literature web site)                 |

> |                                                     |

> |          "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"       |

> |            (a real book, like on paper)             |

> |               also at http://coffeehousebook.com    |

> |                                                     |

> |                   *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

> |                                                     |

> |                            "Not sunglasses, shades" |

> -------------------------------------------------------

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:21:52 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Inspiration

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James,

 

        Thanks, as i'm pretty sure you know, my knowledge of Snyder and Welch

is up there with Seargeant Schultz of Hogan's Heroes "I KNOW NOTHING!"

And it seems these are voices I will want to learn and embrace in time.

A gradual process I'm certain.

 

        I must venture to the library tomorrow and will look for Welch junk.  I

think they might have some McClure junk too.  So when I turn in some

Joyce junk I'll try and check out some of those to connect more with

this different style and attitude towards writing.

 

        I think Charlie Plymell mentioned Lew Welch in Last of the Mocassins

but I can't be certain.

 

        It will take me some time to digest these.  I'm about to look into the

second thing on As For Poets in Turtle Island.

 

david

 

James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> David,

> 

> A little Lew Welch in counterpoint to the Snyder pome on poetry

> 

> (WHENEVER I MAKE A NEW POEM)

> 

> Whenever I make a new poem,

> the old ones sound like gibberish.

> How can they ever make sense in a book?

> 

> Let them say:

> "He seems to have lived in the mountains.

> He travelled now and then.

> When he apeared in cities,

> he was almost always drunk.

> 

> "Most of his poems are lost.

> Many of those we have were found in

> letters to his friends.

> 

> "He had a very large number of friends."

> 

> (THE IMAGE AS HEXAGRAM)

> 

> The image, as in a Hexagram:

> 

> The hermit locks his door against the blizzard.

> He keeps the cabin warm.

> 

> All winter he sorts out all he has.

> What was well started shall be finished.

> What was not, should be thrown away.

> 

> In spring he emerges with one garment

> and a single book.

> 

> The cabin is very clean.

> 

> Except for that, you'd never guess

> anyone lived there.

> 

> (I SAW MYSELF)

> 

> I saw myself

> a ring of bone

> in the clear stream

> of all of it

> 

> and vowed,

> always to be open to it

> that all of it

> might flow through

> 

> and then heard

> "ring of bone" where

> ring is what a

> 

> bell does.

> 

> (all from "Hermit Poems", Ring of Bone)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:38:17 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      On "As for Poets"

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"Energy is Eternal Delight" -- William Blake, in The Marriage of Heaven

and Hell.  What are we to make of this?  As the overdeveloped world (the

U.S., Japan, etc.) approaches an "energy crisis" with shortages of oil

and electric power (and some nations plan a desperate gamble with

nuclear generating plants) we must remember that oil and coal are the

stored energy of the sun locked by ancient plant-life in its cells.

"Renewable" energy resources are the trees and flowers and all living

beings of today, especially plant-life doing the primary work of

energy-transfer.

 

        On these fuels contemporary nations now depend.  But there is another

kind of energy, in every living being, close to the sun-source but in a

different way.  The power within.  Whence?  "Delight."  The delight of

being alive while knowing of impermanence and death, the acceptance and

mastry of this.  A defintion:

 

Delight is the innocent joy arising

with the perception and realization of

the wonderful empty, intricate,

inter-penetrating,

mutually-embracing, shining

single world beyond all discrimination

or opposites.

 

        This joy is continually reflected in the poems and songs of the world.

"As for Poets" explores the realm of delight in terms of the five

elements that Ancient Greek and China both saw as the constituents of

the physical world.  To which the Buddhist philosophers of India added a

sixth, consciousness, or Mind.  At one point I was tempted to title this

poem "The Five Elements embracing; pierced by; Mind," -- as illustrated

in the mudra (hand position) generally see on images of Vairocana

Buddha.

 

        EARTH is our Mother and a man or woman goes directly to her, needing no

intermediary.

 

        AIR is our breath, spirit, inspiration; a flow which becomes speech

when "sounded" -- the curling back on the same thrust" is close to what

is meant in the Japanese word FUSHI - knot, or whorl in the grain, the

word for song.

 

        FIRE must have a fuel and the heart's fuel is love. The love that makes

poetry burn is not just the green of this spring, but draws on the

ancient web of sympathetic, compassionate, and erotic acts that lies

behind our very existence, a stored energy into our genes and dreams --

fossil love a sly term for that deep-buried sweetness brough to

conscious thought.

 

        WATER is creation, the mud we crawled on; the wash of tides in the

cells.  The Water Poet is the Creator.  His calligraphy is the trails

and tracks we living beings leave in each other; in the world; his poem.

 

        But swallow it all.  Size is no problem, a little SPACE encloses a huge

void. There, those great whorls, the stars hang.  Who can get outside

the universe?  But the poem was born elsewhere, and need not stay.  Like

the wild geese of the Arctic it heads home, far above the borders, where

most things cannot cross.

 

Now, we are both in, and outside, the world at once.  The only place

this can be is the MIND.  Ah, what a poem.  It is what is completely, in

the past, present, and future simultaneously, seeing being, and being

seen.

 

        Can we really do this?  But we do.  So we sing.  Poetry is for all men

and women.  The power within -- the more you give, the more you have to

give -- will still be our source when coal and oil are long gone, and

atoms are left to spin in peace.

 

        -- Gary Snyder

        From Turtle Island Section "Plain Talk"

 

Goodness ... all but the earth is in the mind's eye of this typist and

why is it left out?  Hmm.  And how to leave the mind and move back into

space, water, fire (real not metaphysical), and earth????  Questions

hoping to learn in this new brand of beat poetry.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:04:11 +0000

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From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      lately i just

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lately i just keep waking

alone

in the black in the night

i breathe shallowly i wear earphones

not to wake you

 

not to waken you

i breath shallowly

3 am 4 am

mind wanders and stumbles

 stuck in the valley of consciousness

motorless

timelessness, i

don=92t think of tomorrow

merge with the blackness

and listen to the burning

fire

in my ears,  break free

and turning

turn up the volume on the stereo

sobbing

i make my choice

i light the candle

i shed

clothes a sunder

i twirl on the balls of my

feet and let

my hips find their own rhythm

i have a scarf

i twirl throw

it veils the lamp

i dance to my anima, shasdow cast

 i ride the the fiddles

in the midst of my

halcyon hurricane

dancing the blackness

 

go away if it bothers you, in fact

please go away.

its the blackness you see

the blackness and me

everybody knows about me

everybody knows about me

the song

the vigil

energy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:17:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         "john v. omlor" <omlor@PACKET.NET>

Subject:      Speaking of Poets... (a longish bit o' fun)

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Since the subject of poets (as generic types) has come up I thought I'd

just offer this small bit of  fiction to which at least a few of you might

relate.  It takes place in a small, fictional, southern town called...

 

 

                                                                Shad County

 

 

 

 

 

Things were just startin to quiet down around Shad County when the call

came into the office.  Lucy found me on the radio to let me know that Billy

Taylor had called from over his place.  It seems he had just got back from

his last seven-day haul and when he went to park his rig out behind his

house he noticed a rustle or somethin coming from back in the shack where

he used to keep that old tractor his daddy left him.  Well, anyways, what

he found when he got there, what he described to Lucy and she described to

me, right away it got me worried.

 

I figured the best thing to do first off was to go deputize Fred Silver's

oldest boy, Fred Jr..  If this was what I thought it was we were in for

some serious trouble.  I headed over to the Silver's to pick up young Fred

and on the way I tried to figure out what the most sensible way of

approachin this thing might be.  Even after I got Fred in the car and we

were on our way to Billy's I didn't really have an idea.

 

The scene at the Taylor place was just about what I expected.  Billy was

scared.  'Course, he hadn't slept for seven straight days, so it was kinda

hard to tell, but he just didn't seem himself.  Anyway, he didn't have the

foggiest what could of left that old shack in the state it was in inside.

Fred and I grabbed a couple of flashlights and started real slowly to ease

our way in through the old wooden door that was already startin to fall of

its hinges.  One side of the shack was filled to near burstin with Billy's

old 72 Malibu convertible, with holes chewed clean through the top.  The

thing had been on blocks since Billy's brother didn't come back from Los

Angeles or Vietnam or wherever it was that he died, and anyway, nobody

talked about it much.  The other side of the shack, where the roof beams

had started to sag and where even the bats couldn't hang on for their lives

anymore, well, that side told the whole story.

 

Our flashlights lit up the room bright enough.  Scattered around on old

buckets and some old cement block were all these candles, burnt most of the

way down.  The floor was covered, almost an inch deep, in cigarette butts

and at least a dozen bottles, some broken, some not even empty were thrown

around the place.  It was bad enough that a lot of them were wine bottles

but there was no question left when I made my way over to the far corner of

the shack.  There, near a small hole broken into the back wall -- it was

single piece of white paper with thin blue lines, the kind somebody

obviously ripped out from one of them grade school composition books.

 

I held it up to the light of Fred's flashlight and looked the kid straight

in the eyes.

 

"Well, Fred, you know what we got here, don't ya?"

 

Fred's eyes got bigger.  "Ya mean..."

 

"Yep," I said.  "Poets."

 

When I said it Fred gave a small shiver.  "Poets! We ain't never had poets

in this county.  There can't be a poet within a hundred miles of this

place."

 

"I'm tellin' ya Fred, this here's the remains of a poets' gatherin.  Look

at the wine bottles, and generic cigarettes for Chrissakes."

 

Fred was scared now.  "You ever seen poets before?"

 

"Not really.  A few years back they had a run of them up at Cross Point,

out behind Charlie's tackle shop.  But we didn't pay much mind down here,

we just figured wherever you got lakes, come Springtime you gonna' get some

poets, its just a fact of life you gotta learn to live with.  You know,

what with the scenery and all.  Anyways, Charlie had the mayor close down

the bars for a month and they vanished back into the hills I guess.  These

ones here must of been scared down by hunters or those nature hikers or

somethin.  Just look at this place."

 

"What're we gonna' do Sheriff.  I mean, we don't wanna be over run."

 

"Well," I said as I picked up a couple of the bottles and checked the marks

left on the ground by big poet butts, "I don't rightly think we have to

worry just yet.  There looks to only be about eight or nine of 'em so far,

I'd guess about half males and half females.  That's usually how it is

anyway, the males usually follow the females down."

 

"You mean," Fred was stammerin' now, "they might, you know, might have babies!?"

 

"Nah, we don't really gotta worry there.  Everybody knows poets ain't

fertile.  Hell, the males don't often make it much past thirty 'fore they

die, and the females seem to have found some way to use alcohol as birth

control.  Anyways, if they was likely to be havin' babies they wouldn't be

poets, would they?"

 

Fred didn't look that sure as I led him out.  He was even less sure that

night when we came back to see if the poets showed up.  Sure enough, the

glow through the door of the Taylor shack told us what we wanted to know.

With just me and Fred I wasn't about to go burstin' in on a bunch of juiced

up probably suicidal poets in the middle of the night, so we just listened

and waited.  Suddenly a great wave of coughin and hackin came from the

shack.

 

"Well, one's things for sure," I said as I turned to Fred.  "We ain't gonna

be able to smoke 'em out."

 

 

It was just before sun up when we finally heard em scatterin out through

the back hole, coughin and laughin about probably nothin.  Fred and I

waited a while for the smoke to clear and then made our way into the shack.

It was a nightmare in there.  Fred found a small scrap of paper over by

the hole and when I got to him he was holdin' back his dinner.

 

"Jesus, listen to this...  You ripped me bleeding from my own womb only to

shred me like second hand jeans."

 

"Animals, what do you expect?  Don't look like there's more this time than

last though.  Maybe that's the whole pack.  I figure, we get fifteen maybe

twenty guys and maybe also a couple of those Neil Diamond eight tracks I

got back in my garage, and maybe send down to the University for an old

poetry professor or two and that should scare 'em back into the hills."

 

Fred had lost it over in the corner of the shack, but even after he was

done, the place actually smelled better.  "Anyway," I said, "we'll be OK

for a few hours anyway.  Its not that they actually sleep I don't think,

but they do tend to stay out of sight during breakfast and lunch hours.

Liked they worked somewhere or somethin.  C'mon, Fred."

 

But, as I turned, there, behind Fred with their backs against the back wall

and a look on their eyes that told me parts of them were on vacation

somewhere, were four of the scariest lookin poets any man had ever seen.

At first I wasn't sure...it must have been the hair that fooled me, but I

think it was three females and a male, though just which one had the

mustache was kinda hard to tell.  I tried to signal to Fred not to turn

around even though he could tell I was lookin behind him, but it was too

late.  The one in the second hand dress and cowboy boots, the one with the

legs whiter than the bark on a birch, bared her teeth. "Hey, what's up?"

 

Fred froze.  I knew I couldn't leave him there or he'd be dead meat.  Next

time I'd see him he'd be chain smokin' and talkin about re-workin' some

image cause he didn't think it worked in the context of the whole piece.

He'd have that lost puppy look in his eyes of a young man who lives with

the possibility of drunken no-strings-attached sex every day of his life. I

had to save him for his own sake if not for his daddy's.  Fred Sr., after

all, pulled a lot of strings around the county.

 

The shortest one, another female, this one in old sweats and carryin a book

with one of them psychedelic covers slipped up next to Fred and asked him

if he'd ever been to Mexico and hadn't they gotten high once at somethin

called the Yucatan peninsula.  All this time the other female wandered over

the floor of the shack, pushing her bang out of her eyes with one hand

while she checked the bottles for left overs with the other.  The male,

tall and skinnier than a split rail with straight hair that my wife would

kill for sat quietly in the corner workin in a little spiral bound pocket

notebook. Hell, he was probably sittin right there in front of me...revisin

or somethin.  The whole thing was like one of them National Geographic

specials.  I swear I wished I woulda had my camera, them pictures woulda

been worth a fortune to one of those tabloid papers.  Still, I had to think

fast.  Fred was already startin' to lose it.  The female with the bang and

tight brown shirt had found a bottle and was throwin it back and Fred's

eyes were glued to her breasts like they held the promise of eternal life.

 

"Fred!  Fred!  She'll only use you as somethin to write about and tomorrow

you'll feel like hell and won't recognize yourself in the poem anyways.

Fred!"

 

I couldn't break his trance.  I tried somethin' else.

 

"Fred, I hear their givin out free Beer over at the Lighthouse tavern in

Pine Bluff.  You hear that Fred?  Free  Beer  Free...

 

But the night had gone on too long and the poets weren't conscious enough

to recognize what would have otherwise been like a mating call to 'em.

Fred had drifted over to the brown one and was about to say somethin to

her, probably about the shards of light that were torn through the broken

fragments of a long forgotten window pain or somethin,  Finally a light

went off in my head.

 

"I know, Fred, I know, let's do a little structuralist analysis, what do

you say?  C'mon, it'll be fun.  Let's decode the semiotic process inscribed

into any utterance, semiological or otherwise.  Think about it Fred, what

sort of signification process do we have here..."

 

It was workin.  The poets had started to inch backwards, their faces

twisted in that same scowl I seen once at the movies when they threw water

on that witch in the Wizard of OZ.

 

"You know, Fred, we were chewin over this just the other night on your

daddy's back porch after supper.  Isn't there some sort of transcendental

process of signification inscribed into any utterance that positions it

within a loop of meaning?  That makes it possible for it to mean?  What was

it you said about meanin?

 

Fred's eyes broke their stare.  "You mean that meanin is never stable

always bein positioned as it is between the unstable construction of a

subject position and the possibility of a gap between signifier and

signified?"

 

That did it... The females burst out the door in a full gallop, the male

staying only long enough to close his book and mumble somethin about not

even a decent roach to be found, and the shack was quiet and Fred was cryin

in my arms.

 

As I put him into the back of the patrol car and lit myself a good old

fashioned Salem I ran through the evenin' in my mind and let out one final

long stream of clear blue smoke.

 

Sometimes I really don't like bein the sheriff around here.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:37:06 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      wrong draft

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lately i just keep waking

alone

in the black in the night

i breathe shallowly i wear earphones

not to wake you

 

not to wake you

i breath shallowly

3 am 4 am

mind wanders and stumbles

 stuck in the valley of consciousness

black timelessness,

 i don=92t

think of tomorrow

merge with the blackness

listen to the burning

fire

in my ears,  break free

and turning

turn up the volume on the

sobbing stereo wailing

i make my choice

light the candle

shed my

clothes

twirl on the balls of my

feet and let

my hips find their own rhythm

scarf in hand,

flung swirls, settles

the lamp shadows cast,

i dance to my anima,

shadow cast

 i ride the the fiddles

in the midst of hurricane

a halcyon dance

with blackness

 

go away if it bothers you, in fact

please go away.

its the blackness you see

the blackness and me

everybody nobody knows about me

nobody everybody

nobody knows about me

the song

the vigil

energy

 

 

oct 29? 97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:35:18 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Neil re: Bill Burroughs jr.

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Antoine Maloney wrote:

> 

> Neil,

> 

>         Saw your comment about young Bill Burroughs' "mediocre books"....is

> that pretty much the case? I saw a copy of "Kentucky Ham" and was wondering

> about getting it just today. Can you tell me anything about it. I recently

> bought Jan Kerouac's "Baby Driver" and thought I might let my completist

> instincts run riot.

> 

>                 Antoine

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

 in my o. kentucky ham is far superior to literary outlaw as a

purchase,  i was so disappointed in the accuracy of LO, a hack job very

poorly writen.  kentucky ham was uneven but strangely gripping.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:40:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Aesthetica Eclectica and more!

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  I have another web page for your perusal...

 

   http://www.angelfire.com/biz/mapaul/index.html

 

  News on Bill Morgan's new book, The Beat Generation In New York: A Walking

Tour of Jack Kerouac's City:

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

  The New York Times book reviews on four of Jack Kerouac's novels reprinted

here at:

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/thereviews.html

 

                              Thanks! Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:17:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Al Hinkle

Mime-Version: 1.0

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I thought his name was Ed Hinkle?

 

Jon

 

At 11:39 AM 10/29/97 -0800, you wrote:

>To answer the question about Al Hinkle, the real life

>Ed Dunkel of On The Road -- he died about a year ago.

>He and his wife Helen (Galatea Dunkel) were still living

>in the San Jose/Los Gatos area, and were still good

>friends with Carolyn Cassady and the Cassady kids at the

>end, which is a sort of interesting fact given the odd

>way they met during that cross-country trip that is now

>Beat legend ...

> 

>-------------------------------------------------------

>| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                    |

>|                                                     |

>|     Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

>|      (the beat literature web site)                 |

>|                                                     |

>|          "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"       |

>|            (a real book, like on paper)             |

>|               also at http://coffeehousebook.com    |

>|                                                     |

>|                   *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

>|                                                     |

>|                            "Not sunglasses, shades" |

>-------------------------------------------------------

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:00:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Neil re: Bill Burroughs jr.

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997102913454133@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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I like Billy's stuff too.  Though its not particulary stylized, what he

has to say is great.  He's also quite frank about it all, which is where

his talent lie I think. You could put his writing next Jan's and Hunke's.

Not possessed of genius but you can see a lot of potential.  I wonder what

he would have been able to do if he'd been able to clean himself up (had

something in his mind to clean himself up for) and take to writing

seriously.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:21:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Speaking of Poets... (a longish bit o' fun)

In-Reply-To:  <199710292117.QAA27201@lido.packet.net>

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At 04:17 PM 10/29/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Since the subject of poets (as generic types) has come up I thought I'd

>just offer this small bit of  fiction to which at least a few of you might

>relate.  It takes place in a small, fictional, southern town called...

> 

> 

>                                                                Shad County

 

John, I absolutely loved it. It helps to keep a sense of humor in all this

madness. What else you got? Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:23:28 -0500

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From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Source Material

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Mark:

 

I wasn't telling you what your point was. I was saying what to me, the

point is.  And that is that anyone that I know would acknowledge that there

is plenty of "Kerouac" material out there.  That is not new news.  If you

want to get to something that his an issue, you have to go beyond the

surface issue.  I took your post to say that something "new" was being put

forth, that material is available.  To Me, that is beside the point.   I

did not disagree with you or tell you that you were wrong, just that I

think, you missed the real point.  You disagree, fine.   We both are

entitled to our opinons.

 

Hemenway . Mark wrote:

 

> Please don't tell me what my point is. I say it again. There is lots of

> Kerouac material in libraries and Universities around the country. If

> you want to see some lists, check out <<Dharma beat>> magazine.

> 

> Mark Hemenway

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:29:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Source Material

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Paul:

 

I will not take the time to address these issues.  Simply to say, that there are

inventories of the stolen letters.  I have a letter from the University claiming

that it did all it could do to recover the stolen letters.  You saying that they

don't exist and weren't stolen certainly means that your information lacks

credibility.  Myself, I care not to indulge you as Gerry has done.

 

Please get it straight and quit trying to pretend that the facts are not there.

You know they are.

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

> >

> I am appalled that such inaccuracies originate from one who is supposed to

> be educated in the subject of law. The estate has never denied access to any

> of its archives but merely, to require permission for the xeroxing of

> documents originating from Jack Kerouac. Your research with Berkeley, I am

> positive, was taken out of context.

>   As far as stolen letters. Quite simply, what letters? The library has no

> record of whatever letters in question as being stolen. This was confirmed

> by myself when I was informed by Gerry Nicosia that I was suspected (by the

> library) in this. With a clear conscience I know that I did not make off

> with them. The librarian had no idea, nor is there documentation. when I

> approached UMass Lowell police, they had nothing to go on. They have nothing

> that is like the inventory list that is similar to the list on Jo Grant's

> site. If these are the letters in question, suffice it to say that there has

> not been an attempt to recover them because the existence of them in the

> library is disputable.

>      On the other hand, the security in the library is marginal. I remember

> a case of some letters, dating from the 1700's to the present, (among them

> letters from Thoreau and Emerson) donated to the library through the

> passionate efforts of a professor of the same institution. The letters were

> placed in a box similar to a shoe box and left on a open shelf like many

> other items of ephemeral value. The letters were taken away by the

> Massachusetts Historical Society when it made a surprise inspection to see

> how the letters were being handled. Hoards of Kerouac fans each year go to

> this place to see, hopefully, Kerouac items. They also go to the Lowell

> Public Library. Items, books and such, from the city library had all been

> made off with over the years. As it has been highlighted before in a similar

> thread, books of this subject are often stolen from book stores. Anyone

> wanting something bad enough will go to its source and take it.

> 

>    Paul....

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:34:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Keith and baseball

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Keith:

 

Go to my page, to the beat page and to Cosmic Baseball and see for

yourself.  Check it out dude.  :-)

 

SUHOZA, JAMES P wrote:

 

>         Mike,

> 

>         If you are located near Sacramento, as is our buddy Warren,

> cruise up to Diamond Springs and find

>         the used record store, (can't recall the name but, heh, the town

> ain't that big).  The owner has about

>         30 old JJW records and probably 30-40 old singles, remember

> 45's?  My guess is that he also has Waylon's stuff (thank God he missed

> the plane!)

> 

>         Good luck

> 

>         Jim in El Dorado

> 

> > hello out there.  i am looking for a 1976 recording by jjw entitled

> > "it's a

> > good night for singin' " as well as a ''78 recording of "white

> > mansions" done

> > by waylon and others.  suggestions would be most appreciated.  thanks.

> > mike.

> > **********************************************************************

> > **

> > SEND UNSUBSCRIBES TO: majordomo@io.com with message of unsubscribe

> > JJW-L

> > **********************************************************************

> > **

> >

> ************************************************************************

> SEND UNSUBSCRIBES TO: majordomo@io.com with message of unsubscribe JJW-L

> ************************************************************************

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:34:59 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Keith and baseball

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Keith:

 

Go to my page, to the beat page and to Cosmic Baseball and see for

yourself.  Check it out dude.  :-)

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:16:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Source Material

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:29 PM 10/29/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Paul:

> 

>I will not take the time to address these issues.  Simply to say, that

there are

>inventories of the stolen letters.  I have a letter from the University

claiming

>that it did all it could do to recover the stolen letters.  You saying that

they

>don't exist and weren't stolen certainly means that your information lacks

>credibility.  Myself, I care not to indulge you as Gerry has done.

> 

>Please get it straight and quit trying to pretend that the facts are not there.

>You know they are.

 

Just another hack lawyer who can't admit when he's wrong....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:16:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Source Material

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Paul:

 

This is sad.  As I have stated before, you lose all your credibility when you

 make

personal attacks.  I hope you will grow out of it.   But, I will not play your

 dirty

games.  And on this list, I am not a lawyer.  I am just another person, like

 you.

 

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

> Just another hack lawyer who can't admit when he's wrong....

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:44:10 +0900

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>

Subject:      November Blues

In-Reply-To:  <199710292138.QAA03575@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi everyone.

Usually, I like to get out my old paperback copy of Tough Guys Don't Dance

(by N. Mailer) and read it as the seasons change as they do this time of

year. Great book. Before I do, though, I thought,  that I might humbly

submit a little something I worked on recently to the list. I tried to get

a rythm going in it, and must say I got a little inspiration from Dylan's

"Last Thoughts on Woody Guthry". Copy it and take it outside to read

somewhere where it's cloudy and windy and the dry leaves are scritching

across the road and it's getting chilly.

 

November Blues

 

When you feel beat

 . . .like tired of the crowds

they're pushin ya and they're pullin ya stuck in the store where the PA's

too loud

the hour's too late the stairs too far the escalator's broken

the air cooler out

and you're chokin and coughing like in a dream where you know its gone bad

but you can't wake up you claw n scrape n scream but

you're back at that boot camp cabin, soldier, Fort Lost in the Woods

where they test their gas masks

and guys in green are lined up by the door in twos prayer calm

and inside the CS riot control gas is fuming from a Folgers coffee can

set on a wooden office desk in the center of the bare room you breathe it

like water

it rips the soft skin of yr nose and eyes and out you burst from the other side

crying for Jesus or Mom

--Why? screaming stumbling snotty through the trees to fall in a pile face

to the sky

 

. . . like dark body gloom

wheel's fallen off

yr left knee's shot and there's something in yr cough that spells

N-O-V-E-M-B-E-R

a word that was written in the fog you steamed up the car window with

little breaths

as yr Pa brought you home after the crash with yr left leg broken the cast

on yr arm

the stitches they counted like years flipped over and over down Maplegrove Lane

the stars the railroad ties the snowfields tumble

and the little hairline or compound fears grow

from all the ways you could kick before yr hairbrush fills with snow

before you spat on the moon 'fore you saw a perfect Saturday

where you woke up yr kid brother to a harmless cartoon that goes and goes

round n round n round in a bowl of Cheerios

and the bumps heal fast and the fallen nevermind

and the circus sledgehammers squeak like toys and the coyote's fine

 

. . . like everyone's gone or left you alone in the dark

you try to forget it but can't, kick a can in the shadows

pick a song on an old guitar as you walk through the park

turn a dial press a nothing button gone it comes back gone on channel whatever

gone on her smile

so across the fields so (what was that?) everything stops

as you count the change alone into little piles of order,

renaming souls relighting fires restarting engines reliving days rewalking

yr street

all over all over again when you feel beat

 

. . .like when you're longing for home looking in through the windows at night

seeing the old clock that stopped in the warm carpet livingroom scene

the glow of the family in all their buttery faces

the kitchen smells coming out to you on the porch from the oven in great

batches and pans looking in on the bedrooms and yr self as a kid

and the others fresh out of the bath throwin' towels used and damp down in

a pile

after changing into pajamas

some doing homework late

looking in older from the porch on the empty foyer

not ringing the bell but looking back when you feel beat

 

and moving slowly under the black canopy of the evening leaves of November

walking down yr old roads to Main Street

 

 

by Timothy Hoffman

 

:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::

Timothy Hoffman

Komaki English Teaching Center (KETC)

Komaki Shiminkaikan, KETC

2-107 Komaki

Komaki, Aichi 485

work (0568) 76-0905

fax (0568) 77-8207

home (0568)72-3549

timothy@gol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:06:00 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      david o and scattered  scraps

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david ohle

     QUIET, WHATS THAT NOISE

     ringmaster, orphan, thinking, thinking

twisting, turning over rocks.

        solid honor, clever charm

 

he can take a small point,

by twisting and turning it,

show a large amount of light.

 

he honors love, small warm things

fill him with a wonder that he of

course hides, what does he care.

 

 

 

found poem

 curiousity

 I use an on-line service called Data Base Technology to

find missing witnesses.  It is amazing. With just a SSN, date of birth

and last name, or even a license plate number, I can find addresses,

phone numbers, relatives, SSN's, DL's, vehicles owned, etc., etc.

what is data base technology?

 

Circling space

 

Web, web weave, now a moment

new art dancing in cyber space,

its not real, nor is man.

a magic wand of time,

created life from frankenstein to dancing sticks,

lift the line and grimacing begins.

i strung beads for rides preparing for geography

handing  them over at the exit.

now, simple urls of blue light offered to each of us.

lets go where the pimply faced boys is king,

the old can rock around the world in a click.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:21:41 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: BASEBALL and Cuba and Beat???

Content-Type: text/plain

 

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

 

Lets see poems, baseball.....

 

You tell me what has more to do with beat?  I wrote the poem for a beat

reading that is coming up and wanted input.  You see you just got pulled

over on a one way street you thought was a two way street and missed my

glass house by a mile....

Keith

PS let it die s'il vous plait

 

>What does your poem have to do with beat?

> 

>You see it is a two way street.  Your post started it and it had

nothing to

>do with beat.

> 

>But no one threw stones at you or your glass house.

> 

>You see what I mean?

> 

 

>> 

>> 

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:27:17 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Mr. Gallaher

Content-Type: text/plain

 

This is an open letter to Mr. Gallaher:

 

Dear Mr. Gallaher,

 

     Why do you find it nessisary to attack my request?  Do you find it

funny to point fingers and mock me?  Is that what your mental abilities

allow you to do, or am I over exaggerating you mental capabilities by

giving you that much credit?  Perhaps you simply thought I would find

being mocked and ridiculed publicly funny?  Perhaps when you look in the

mirror you should think about when you were eight years old, have you

changed at all mentally?  Or do you find the same juvenile pranks

hilarious, because I certainly don't.  Maybe you should express yourself

to others who appreciate it.

A very offended,

Keith

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:57:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Source Material

In-Reply-To:  <3457DFE4.5AA33DA5@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Bentz,

 

What are you doing?  You can't respond to that kind of crap.

 

Ignore them.

 

Let 'em talk.

 

Let 'em rave. Sit back. Build an archive.

 

The courts will hear both sides, deliberate, and make a decision.

 

Believe me it's a relief to rid yourself of them.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>Paul:

> 

>This is sad.  As I have stated before, you lose all your credibility when you

> make

>personal attacks.  I hope you will grow out of it.   But, I will not play your

> dirty

>games.  And on this list, I am not a lawyer.  I am just another person, like

> you.

> 

> 

>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> 

>> Just another hack lawyer who can't admit when he's wrong....

>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                            Henry David Thoreau

> 

> 

> 

>--

> 

>Peace,

> 

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

 

           Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                           FREE

                             at

                               BookZen

                          http://www.bookzen.com

                402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:45:08 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Gallaher

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I didn't mock you.  If you think I did read again.

 

Fee free to tell me what made you feel bad.  I actually tried to be nice.

 

I actually said that I was happy to have people post their poems and then

ask what one thinks.

 

I don't understand why you have this reaction.

 

 

 

>This is an open letter to Mr. Gallaher:

> 

>Dear Mr. Gallaher,

> 

>     Why do you find it nessisary to attack my request?  Do you find it

>funny to point fingers and mock me?  Is that what your mental abilities

>allow you to do, or am I over exaggerating you mental capabilities by

>giving you that much credit?  Perhaps you simply thought I would find

>being mocked and ridiculed publicly funny?  Perhaps when you look in the

>mirror you should think about when you were eight years old, have you

>changed at all mentally?  Or do you find the same juvenile pranks

>hilarious, because I certainly don't.  Maybe you should express yourself

>to others who appreciate it.

>A very offended,

>Keith

> 

>------------------------------------------------------------

>Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

>http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

>------------------------------------------------------------

> 

> 

>______________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:47:38 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: BASEBALL and Cuba and Beat???

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

> 

>Lets see poems, baseball.....

> 

>You tell me what has more to do with beat?

 

 

Baseball by all means,

 

an unspoken form of poetry.

 

There are many.

 

unlax

 

(maybe with exlax?)

 

au revoir mon petit avoirdupuis

 

 

 

  >I wrote the poem for a beat

>reading that is coming up and wanted input.  You see you just got pulled

>over on a one way street you thought was a two way street and missed my

>glass house by a mile....

>Keith

>PS let it die s'il vous plait

> 

>>What does your poem have to do with beat?

>> 

>>You see it is a two way street.  Your post started it and it had

>nothing to

>>do with beat.

>> 

>>But no one threw stones at you or your glass house.

>> 

>>You see what I mean?

>> 

> 

>>> 

>>> 

>> 

> 

> 

>______________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:07:19 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Carolyn Cassady (was: Al Hinkle)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Anne,

 

I think Leon or Levi are best equipped to answer this, but as I remember

it, Carolyn Cassidy is supposed to be here in California now and is

making an appearance at UC Santa Cruz.  She spends most of her time in

England.  I saw her last at the party for the publication of the "Women

of the Beat Generation" book of Brenda Knights at Tosca in SF.  John

Cassidy, whose interview with Levi I sent to the list this morning,

would be your best contact.  I've got his e-mail address if you need it.

 

J. Stauffer

 

ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON wrote:

> 

> Which reminds me, does Carolyn make any public appearances? Is she

> involved with anything on the Internet? Is it possible for fans/students

> to get in touch with her, or is she reclusive?

> Anne Sneddon

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:56:39 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Bob Kaufman Award & PEN dinner

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                        Oct 29, 1997

        Back from Los Angeles.  The PEN dinner was splendid, some really

deserving people got awards.  John Rechy got the lifetime achievement award.

He is one great writer and also a super kind and giving human being (beloved

by generations of students at USC).  If you don't know his work, check out

CITY OF NIGHT, which is the gay ON THE ROAD.  But Rechy's prose is even more

poetic than Kerouac's.  Yet he was always marginalized as "just a gay writer."

        Bill Vollmann got the award in fiction for THE ATLAS.  He's 38 years

old and has published 10 books, some of them beyond amazing.  BUTTERFLY

STORIES, WHORES FOR GLORIA, 13 STORIES, these are works at the cutting edge

of fiction today, dealing with skinheads, AIDS, street prostitutes, whoring

his way across Asia, stuff you wouldn't believe.  SOme people are calling

him the next Kerouac.  His style is much different than jack's, more

cerebral, but this "kid" has got one hell of a punch and maybe is the best

contender now alive to fill Jack's shoes (which may never be filled, any

more than anybody is ever going to box better than Muhammed Ali, or play

basketball better than Michael Jordan).

There probably is no "next Kerouac," but give Vollmann a look anyway, if you

love fiction that hits hard and isn't afraid of life's "dirty side."

        I dedicated the award for Cranial Guitar to Jan Kerouac.  I told the

audience that if Bob Kaufman were alive today, he'd sure be fighting to save

Jack Kerouac's archive and make it available to all.  The day I met BOb,

more than 20 years ago, he rushed to his hotel room to bring me a poem Jack

Kerouac had written to him.  And he didn't charge me $10,000 for it.

        So I come home to find in my email that the letters stolen from my

archive never even existed ("you don't even exist!" someone wrote to Jack

Kerouac in 1967, which he recounts in VANITY OF DULUOZ), Attila Gyenis gets

his mail out of a mailbox 3000 miles away, and we should all consider Paul

Maher, a convicted book thief, as a more credible witness than Bentz Kirby,

a member of the South Carolina bar.

        Someone ought to enroll Mr. Sampas and his followers in Franklin

Rosemont's surrealist society.  They have a native gift for the surreal that

surpasses even DuChamps and Breton.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:55:52 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      hope this helps, david

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> 

> How Poetry Comes to Me

> 

> It comes blundering over the

> Boulders at night, it stays

> Frightened outside the

> Range of my campfire

> I go to meet it at the

> Edge of the light.

> 

>         -- Gary Snyder

>         from No Nature

> 

> I'll need help with this one.  Not being exactly an "outdoorsman", i can

> only try to comprehend GS here by analogy.  The best I get is some local

> parks for a literal understanding of what he's saying.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

 

 

How poetry came to me:

 

wandering around red rocks

i went off a little to the left

thinking about life

the meaning

my position in it

and i'm walking along

taking pictures of the skyline

and suddenly i look

and see right in front of me

nothing but a coyote.

 

'go away,' i hear a voice say.

'you don't belong here.'

 

i'm stunned.

frozen.

 

suddenly i turn and run.

 

See, nature only comes at you

when you're least expecting it

when you're the least prepared for it.

 

So might as well meet the Mother at the edge of the campfire.

 

cw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:02:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "john v. omlor" <omlor@PACKET.NET>

Subject:      Re: Speaking of Poets... (one more just for fun)

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Phil is kind enough to ask:

 

> What else you got? Phil

 

Well, OK.  I did post a piece about Burroughs quite a while back; but as

long as we're now in the silliness vein, I'll offer this one, which I hope

will make at least a few of you smile and recall your youthful fantasies.

It's my small attempt to answer the lasting metaphysical question...

 

 

 

 

                                                      Ginger or Mary Anne

 

 

 

 

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale

 

   the tale of a fateful trip.

 

 

 

                                        Ginger

 

 

Red hair stiff as the points at the tips of her perfect breasts.

 

And your lips move down those shoulders of pure white

(alabaster that never tanned despite years of exposure to the tropical sun)

        the feel of silver lam=E9 crinkling in your hands

        down an impossible angle to the smallest circle of a waist.

 

She slides out of that dress you already know only too well.

 

Her lips now in that pout that haunts your dreams,

        (its been used so many times before to get so many things).

 

And you kiss down the smooth white stomach and land, beached,

upon a red triangle of wire (dyed to match, of course) and another pair of

scarlet lips.

 

You can hear her now, sighing in the throaty, breathfilled voice that

always wanted so badly to be Marilyn singing Happy Birthday to a President

long since lost.

 

And behind her your hands get lost in the soft white dough of curves you

had only before dreamed of in silver white, sparkling against the sand of

the uncharted desert isle.

 

You are getting lost in the red and white and you know now why producers

were mourning her loss as a tragedy for the industry.

 

 

 

[A Bridge in Prose]:  Supposing that the Howell's were monogamous (and

honestly, wouldn't they sort of have to be?) that leaves three boys for our

two women, an excess of the dialectic they represent.  Who goes without?

Who doubles up? Has the professor, who after all can make a washing machine

out of coconuts and bamboo, already invented a tropical pleasure toy from

available materials and is he entertaining himself nightly, the only one,

after all, with his own hut?  Is there a regular rotation, or agreed upon

pairs, or is the whole thing ad-libbed depending on who has eaten the most

coconut custard pie from the night before?

 

 

 

 

                                                Mary Anne

 

 

The eyes wide

 

        (and powerful from eating carrots grown from atomically radiated see=

ds)

 

                and the muscles of her shoulders and arms hard and smooth.

 

Her lips are small and her tongue is sharp as it flashes into your mouth at

hyperspeed.

 

Her hands, still soft but slightly bony and without a trace of color on the

nails

 

(she does them often but never red, unless her personality has been

switched by an evil scientist with an accent).

 

        they pull quickly on your hair as she gasps in an innocent passion.

 

Her shirt unbuttons easily and you kiss the small pink nipples and she

purrs like a farm cat.

 

Your hand is drawn down to the legendary stomach (ever-exposed but for a

small rise in the denim of her shorts that discreetly covers her navel (it

was, after all, the law)).

 

It is the stomach of dreams. The flat waist and hard thighs of the land.

 

And between...

 

 

        A wild bird's nest of a thicket...

 

                Untrimmed and pungent and now stretching for your fingers.

 

There is fire in this wholesomeness,

 

        a wild passion in this Mid-West, milk fed, energy.

 

And she is loud...screaming across an island from lagoon to caves her cry

echoing in the jungle and on the radio that always knows its cue.

 

 

And you smile in your ecstacy...

 

 

because you know in your heart

 

 

that no matter what

 

 

the hole in that boat will never be patched.

 

 

 

 

 

 

- JVO

 

***********************************************************

 

 

 

Back to lurker status for me (too many papers to grade),

 

--John

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:30:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      letters, lawyers, and the bughouse blues

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Boy you really have the "bughouse blues" today don't you? As usual, I was

taken out of context....I did not say the letters never existed. I said that

according to the library, there is no record of their being there.So I am

merely repeating what they have told me and others. I was criticizing them.

I, if you put it into the right context, was actually agreeing with you. I,

through my story about other incidents, was relating a similar circumstance.

I was trying to porve a point about "their" incompetence. But, like

everything else that was ever uttered here, it was taken out of context

first by a lawyer and then regurgitated and re-ingested by Gerald

Nicosia....you know  like vultures do.

                                  Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 04:35:52 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award & PEN dinner

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Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> 

>                         Oct 29, 1997

>         Back from Los Angeles.  The PEN dinner was splendid, some really

> deserving people got awards.  John Rechy got the lifetime achievement award.

> He is one great writer and also a super kind and giving human being (beloved

> by generations of students at USC).  If you don't know his work, check out

> CITY OF NIGHT, which is the gay ON THE ROAD.  But Rechy's prose is even more

> poetic than Kerouac's.  Yet he was always marginalized as "just a gay writer."

>         Bill Vollmann got the award in fiction for THE ATLAS.  He's 38 years

> old and has published 10 books, some of them beyond amazing.  BUTTERFLY

> STORIES, WHORES FOR GLORIA, 13 STORIES, these are works at the cutting edge

> of fiction today, dealing with skinheads, AIDS, street prostitutes, whoring

> his way across Asia, stuff you wouldn't believe.  SOme people are calling

> him the next Kerouac.  His style is much different than jack's, more

> cerebral, but this "kid" has got one hell of a punch and maybe is the best

> contender now alive to fill Jack's shoes (which may never be filled, any

> more than anybody is ever going to box better than Muhammed Ali, or play

> basketball better than Michael Jordan).

>         Best always, Gerry Nicosia

 

 

Glad you had a safe trip Gerry.  The next anybody always seems a

horrible thing to place upon anyone.  Some line from Lou Reed often pops

into my head "you can't be Shakespeare and you can't be Joyce" lada lada

lada.  Much easier to waste time doing e-mailing with such thoughts.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:28:30 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      WSB - question from the gallery

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Well I have my other computer set up in the bedroom writing table area

now.  One thing I found on it was a fairly shabby master's thesis about

the language strategies of the advocates for space colonization.  It

seems that for a number of reasons it is time to slowly begin to

translate the significant work i did on that project into something that

is REAL!!!!

 

And William S. Burroughs writings are certainly an influence since then

which need to be spliced into the stew.  So questions from the Gallery

for potential threads or backchannel replies (for the timid).

 

1)  William's Welcome -- On Dead City Radio -- What are you here for?

We're all here to go into space!!!  -- or somesuch.  Does this text

appear somewhere in writing that I might want to track down?

 

2)  A line without a context.  Somewhere I have seen in connection or

quotation with William Burroughs the following line "Travel is

necessary, living isn't" or something like that.  Any help in tracking

down where that might come from???

 

3)  How does number 2 relate to WSB's attitude towards Neal's motion

without purpose lifestyle?  Just opinions there -- anybody? anybody?

 

4)  Stasis Horrors.  This seems to be a biological argument by WSB for

movement -- I've seen and heard of it many many times.  Can folks help

me out with specific references.

 

5)  Anything and everything else :)

 

my rather immature examination before led to a conclusion concerning the

use of frontier myths and metaphors as well as science fiction and

fantasy themes as a means to almost hypnotize the audience into a lack

of interest in the technical arguments.  To me this should have been the

first chapter and go from there.  Unfortunately, the adviser had other

notions.  I have much more respect for him now -- but perhaps it is time

as a very long term project to begin to re-write this project from the

beginning I'd suggested towards an ending that the future of the

universe may only know.

 

Other backchannel requests:

 

Many of you are beginning to understand that i REALLY AM illiterate in

the sense of literature.  I know how to treat politics as a text,

foreign policy decisions as texts, and employ literary critical tools in

examining them -- often finding soap opera generes at work :)

 

If you can suggest backchannel things i should look into in terms of

literature and narrative in the following areas that relate to this long

term project I'd appreciate it.

 

Frontier themes:  I am very deep on the philosophy and history of the

frontier notions of American history.  I know nothing about the literary

experience.

 

Science fiction:  About the only science fiction I've read to date are

things which appear within the texts of presumably non-fiction books

like Gerard O'Neill's The High Frontier and the like.

 

Science fantasy:  I understand the distinctions here between fiction and

fantasy but that is as far as I go.

 

In terms of suggestions -- I'd ask for notions that are:

 

1)  Classics within these genres so to speak (from your perspective)

 

2)  Possibly connected to the readings of WSB (if this is possible to

guess).

 

Any help is appreciated.

 

<listening to Bruce Cockburn ... mellow finding old projects never

completed on old computer that is now my "writing" computer.>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:12:43 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      pome/last round

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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lately i just keep waking       to anna, with thanks

 

 

   lately i just keep waking alone

   in the black of night

   i breathe shallow i wear earphones

   not to wake you

 

   not to wake you

   i breath shallowly

   3 am 4 am

   mind wanders and stumbles

    stuck in the valley of consciousness

   black timelessness,

    i don=92t

   think of tomorrow, rather

   merge with the blackness

   listen to the burning

   fire

   in my ears,  break free      --the passions wax in my ears,

   and turning,

   turn up the volume on the

   sobbing stereo wailing

   i make my choice

   light the candle

   shed my

   clothes

   twirl on the balls of my

   feet and let

   my hips find their own rhythm

   scarf in hand,

   flung swirls, settles

   the lamp shadows cast,

   i dance to my anima,

   shadow cast

    i ride the iddles

   in the midst of hurricane

   a halcyon dance.

 

   go away if it bothers you, in fact

   please go away.

   its the blackness you see

   the blackness and me

   everybody nobody knows about me

   nobody everybody

   nobody knows about me

   the song

   the vigil

   energy

 

   oct 29? 97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:52:13 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Inspiration

MIME-Version: 1.0

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James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> David,

> 

> A little Lew Welch in counterpoint to the Snyder pome on poetry

 

All my library had was Genesis Angels: The Saga of Lew Welch and the

Beat Generation by Aram Saroyan in the biography section.  Anyone have

comments on the quality of this biography?  It seems thin after having

read Memory Babe!!!

 

A clip from Gary Snyder on Welch here:

 

Lew Welch had a mind and style of unique delicacy and penetration.  Aram

Saroyan's Genesis Angels approaches Lew from the inside -- a comradely,

intuitive, bold book that is a creative work in its own right.  Also

accurate, I vouch for that.

 

Also found a copy of Anne Waldman's Kill or Cure but haven't examined it

at all yet.

> 

> (WHENEVER I MAKE A NEW POEM)

> 

> Whenever I make a new poem,

> the old ones sound like gibberish.

> How can they ever make sense in a book?

> 

> Let them say:

> "He seems to have lived in the mountains.

> He travelled now and then.

> When he apeared in cities,

> he was almost always drunk.

> 

> "Most of his poems are lost.

> Many of those we have were found in

> letters to his friends.

> 

> "He had a very large number of friends."

> 

> (THE IMAGE AS HEXAGRAM)

> 

> The image, as in a Hexagram:

> 

> The hermit locks his door against the blizzard.

> He keeps the cabin warm.

> 

> All winter he sorts out all he has.

> What was well started shall be finished.

> What was not, should be thrown away.

> 

> In spring he emerges with one garment

> and a single book.

> 

> The cabin is very clean.

> 

> Except for that, you'd never guess

> anyone lived there.

> 

> (I SAW MYSELF)

> 

> I saw myself

> a ring of bone

> in the clear stream

> of all of it

> 

> and vowed,

> always to be open to it

> that all of it

> might flow through

> 

> and then heard

> "ring of bone" where

> ring is what a

> 

> bell does.

> 

> (all from "Hermit Poems", Ring of Bone)

 

Interesting.  I am learning something from these unknown (to me) Beats

already.  The writing is skeletal it seems but on second look plump and

truth fills the spaces between the letters, the words, and the lines.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:54:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Neil re: Bill Burroughs jr.

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997102913454133@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Antoine Maloney wrote:

 

>         Saw your comment about young Bill Burroughs' "mediocre books"....is

> that pretty much the case? I saw a copy of "Kentucky Ham" and was wondering

> about getting it just today. Can you tell me anything about it. I recently

> bought Jan Kerouac's "Baby Driver" and thought I might let my completist

> instincts run riot.

 

Ah, taken to task on a tossed-off remark. Actually, I have to confess

that I've only read Speed, and not Kentucky Ham. After reading Speed I

figured my reading time was better spent elsewhere. Billy has little to no

skill as a stylist, and as my favourite English prof said "if you're not

going to do something interesting with language, you better have a good

story to tell." I think Billy failed on that count as well. I didn't find

it gripping, nor did I find the actual story particularly illuminating or

insightful. I've heard Speed compared to Junky (Speed being the

angst-filled, alienated youth version), but I think Junky was a

mediocre book too. Burroughs wasn't possessed by genius until his writing

found the form of routines; you see some glimmers of it in Queer, but it

doesn't find its full force until Naked Lunch (you see them develop in the

letters, of course). "Raw" was a good adjective to describe Billy's

writing (what I've read of it anyway), but I'd also describe Kerouac's

Tristessa as raw, in an unkind way. Actually, I think I'm going to stop

making these comments before I start a storm I don't want to be in the

middle of.

 

Well, it looks like it's 3-1 so far on the BEAT-L

commendation/condemnation scale, so take it for what its worth. If you

wanna read Billy, I'd suggest you pick up the "Speed/Kentucky Ham: Two

Novels" omnibus from Overlook Books (seriously resisting cheap joke here),

rather than just the one. It's still in print as far as I know, and costs

around $15 new.

 

Yours,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:13:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Neil re: Bill Burroughs jr.

 

Everyone has his opinion.  I think that Bill Burroughs Jr.'s SPEED, is one of

the 10 or so best books from the 60's.  I think it is excellent.  It is a

great coming of age novel - testing limits, friendships and, of course drugs.

 I don't think there is a better book about the scarey speed scene that arose

in New York in the late 60's.

 

Bill Burroughs Jr., basically gave up on life.  Alcohol was his real demon.

 I can scarcely imagine how I would have felt if my father had accidentially

shot my mother while I was at a very tender age - HORROR.  Bill Burroughs Jr.

was raised my his grandparents.  WSB tried to help, esp. Billy later in life.

 I'm sure he felt pretty guilty.  In any case, SPEED is a good read (not a

hard read like many of his Dad's books).

 

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:05:14 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award & PEN dinner

MIME-Version: 1.0

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gerry thanks for the dinner descripton. i agree re: bob kaufman he is somekind

 of

tetched in the head saintly poet freely giving saint to me.

as fer the rest, let's call it an X file not worth the trouble.

i'm sure there are many other phenomena out there for you to investigate,

 mulder.

 

waiting on yr report re: vietnam war

agent scully

 

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

 

>                         Oct 29, 1997

>         Back from Los Angeles.  The PEN dinner was splendid, some really

> deserving people got awards.  John Rechy got the lifetime achievement award.

> He is one great writer and also a super kind and giving human being (beloved

> by generations of students at USC).  If you don't know his work, check out

> CITY OF NIGHT, which is the gay ON THE ROAD.  But Rechy's prose is even more

> poetic than Kerouac's.  Yet he was always marginalized as "just a gay writer."

>         Bill Vollmann got the award in fiction for THE ATLAS.  He's 38 years

> old and has published 10 books, some of them beyond amazing.  BUTTERFLY

> STORIES, WHORES FOR GLORIA, 13 STORIES, these are works at the cutting edge

> of fiction today, dealing with skinheads, AIDS, street prostitutes, whoring

> his way across Asia, stuff you wouldn't believe.  SOme people are calling

> him the next Kerouac.  His style is much different than jack's, more

> cerebral, but this "kid" has got one hell of a punch and maybe is the best

> contender now alive to fill Jack's shoes (which may never be filled, any

> more than anybody is ever going to box better than Muhammed Ali, or play

> basketball better than Michael Jordan).

> There probably is no "next Kerouac," but give Vollmann a look anyway, if you

> love fiction that hits hard and isn't afraid of life's "dirty side."

>         I dedicated the award for Cranial Guitar to Jan Kerouac.  I told the

> audience that if Bob Kaufman were alive today, he'd sure be fighting to save

> Jack Kerouac's archive and make it available to all.  The day I met BOb,

> more than 20 years ago, he rushed to his hotel room to bring me a poem Jack

> Kerouac had written to him.  And he didn't charge me $10,000 for it.

>         So I come home to find in my email that the letters stolen from my

> archive never even existed ("you don't even exist!" someone wrote to Jack

> Kerouac in 1967, which he recounts in VANITY OF DULUOZ), Attila Gyenis gets

> his mail out of a mailbox 3000 miles away, and we should all consider Paul

> Maher, a convicted book thief, as a more credible witness than Bentz Kirby,

> a member of the South Carolina bar.

>         Someone ought to enroll Mr. Sampas and his followers in Franklin

> Rosemont's surrealist society.  They have a native gift for the surreal that

> surpasses even DuChamps and Breton.

>         Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:41:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Question for Bentz as a lawyer

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

This is not a flame and I am not trying to insult anyone but

Bentz I am curious, as a lawyer could you answer a few questions? Gerry

posted this a while back. This is a direct quote.

 

>"THERE WAS NO LAW SUIT FOR ME TO HELP JAN WITH UNTIL 1994, and a

>large part of Jan's reason for filing the suit was TO STOP JOHN >SAMPAS

FROM SELLING OFF PIECES OF KEROUAC'S ARCHIVE TO COLLECTORS >AND DEALERS,

which didn't begin until 1991" - G.N.

 

If as according to Gerry Nicosia as posted here on the beat-l a LARGE PART

of Jan's and Gerry's reason for filing the lawsuit was to stop the estate

from selling off pieces of the archive which allegedly had been going on

for three years. Wouldn't that lead a jury to believe that the lawsuit is

bogus and made up just to find a way to stop the estate from selling items

that they legally owned. In other words I thought that the reason for the

suit was because the estate did something illegal but now Gerry insinuates

that it's because Jan and Gerry were mad and frustrated that items were

being sold THEN came up with the idea of a forged will as a way to stop

these items from being sold. Also isn't the estate innocent of the charge

of allegedly forging the will until it's actually proven in a court of law?

Also who are they actually saying forged the will? Legally don't they have

to actually accuse someone (a real person) of the crime? THIS IS NOT A

FLAME. Try to answer objectively as a lawyer who has no interest in taking

sides on this matter. I for one think it's a shame that Jack left nothing

in his will for his daughter but I know he told my father that he didn't

think she was his daughter (which I don't agree with and that is not in

dispute here) and maybe that's the reason for leaving her out of the will.

I am not asking Gerry these questions I am asking you as a lawyer.Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:34:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: WSB - question from the gallery

In-Reply-To:  <3458998E.1BAD@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> 1)  William's Welcome -- On Dead City Radio -- What are you here for?

> We're all here to go into space!!!  -- or somesuch.  Does this text

> appear somewhere in writing that I might want to track down?

 

Check both The Third Mind, and The Adding Machine. I believe it's also in

Ah Pook (Arthur?). If you really want to know exactly where that

particular passage is from, the liner notes contain all the sources. This

is one of the catch-phrases that Burroughs uses everywhere, and

incidentally, it's also borrowed from Brion Gysin (I'm not sure if he says

that on Dead City Radio). I'm sure this is also discussed in the Gysin

book "Here to Go: Planet R101".

 

> 2)  A line without a context.  Somewhere I have seen in connection or

> quotation with William Burroughs the following line "Travel is

> necessary, living isn't" or something like that.  Any help in tracking

> down where that might come from???

 

The line is "It is necessary to travel, it is not necessary to live."

 

Another ubiquitious Burroughs phrase, that I believe he stole as well.

Off the top of my head, it appears in The Place of Dead Roads around page

115. I'm also fairly certain it appears in My Education, as travel is one

of the major topics he deals with.

 

> 3)  How does number 2 relate to WSB's attitude towards Neal's motion

> without purpose lifestyle?  Just opinions there -- anybody? anybody?

 

Burroughs' purpose was the Johnson Space Program. He always had a purpose,

and referred to himself as a "pure scientist", which obviously implies a

direction and focus for investigation.

 

> 4)  Stasis Horrors.  This seems to be a biological argument by WSB for

> movement -- I've seen and heard of it many many times.  Can folks help

> me out with specific references.

 

The "Stasis Horrors" would correspond most directly with Burroughs'

notions of homo sap being "the human artifact". He discusses this in The

Job, I believe, as well as The Adding Machine.

 

I read an article in a scholarly journal from England that claimed that

Burroughs' concept of getting into space was like the traditional concept

of the soul coming free of the body, so you may want to examine some of

the ontological precepts governing Burroughs' notions of escaping Time to

get into Space. Another thing that aligns Burroughs with some traditional

Christian notions of spirituality is his horror and revulsion of the body.

This is discussed in "The Postmodern Anus", from _At the Front_.

 

I can't tell you the name of the article mentioned above, because

unfortunately I found it in the University of Waterloo library through a

search of an electronic index of journal articles, and UW is a hundred K

away... If you want to find it, search a similar index of scholarly

journals, with Burroughs as the subject, and the article appeared in

something like "British Studies in Contemporary American Fiction". Sorry

for the vagueness of sources, but you didn't expect to notactually

read Burroughs, or go to the library, did you? ;-)

 

Hope this helps,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:44:04 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Gary Snyder vs JK's spin on GS

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Looking to learn something that would require reading far more than i

currently have time for, I'm hoping to engage some folks in an exercise

in teaching me.

 

I recognize (and recall some threads or strings) that GS is the "basis"

for character named J-something in the JK Legend.  But I also require

WSB's admonition (from another thread) that while connections may be

visible to literal life, JK was writing a Legend and was more than

willing in developing characters from real life to take the Literary

License he felt necessary in doing so.

 

Some of y'all know far more about JK than I and will know more about

JK's character based in the reality of Gary Snyder.  Others of y'all

know far more about Gary Snyder than I and will know more about his

literature and biography and be able to discern what JK left out of GS,

and where he diverted from GS etc.

 

I'd look forward to being taught.

 

Sitting alone in Salina Kansas wondering about such things.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:59:14 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: WSB - question from the gallery

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Neil Hennessy wrote:

> 

> Hope this helps,

> Neil

 

Very much ... thanks a lot!!!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:12:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Concordance for Lunch

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Howdy All,

 

I just dropped by Luke Kelly's site, and he's put up a Naked Lunch

concordance! My applause and gratitude go out to Luke for this incredibly

useful service he provided gratis, for no other reason than devotion to

the work of WSB. So if you've got the barest fragment of a quotation, the

source is only a few clicks away. Great work Luke. His site is at

http://www.bigtable.com

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:39:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Lew Welch/Genesis Angels

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <3458AD2D.55B3@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Just casting my vote for GENESIS ANGELS.  Great book, interior/subjective

look at that great poet; I have a postcard somewhere from Saroyan saying

he tried it straight, writing it as a "regular" biography, and that it

just didn't work, so he wrote it again "Beat" style (my adjective).

Though literally a small book, it's pretty terrific.

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

 

"I always imagined I would write a book, if only a small one, that would

carry one away, into a realm that could not be measured nor even

remembered."

                                 -- Patti Smith, Woolgathering

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:30:21 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Neil re: Bill Burroughs jr.

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if you read all of the info available about billy and his tragic life, imagine

finally knowing you've drunk yrself todeath  and waking out of a hepatic coma to

you're alive but with a dead man's liver in you? this i think is what led to

the  and is a defining moment in his death. even folks who pray for them organs

have to make their peace with this, billy never even knew it was coming. his

books, speed in particular, i see as a great read and representative of 60s

equally the diary of a damaged child.

now a damaged almost never to be grown up.

wow.

i'm on a cheery jag this am

signing off

commander hoek.

 

 

Howard Park wrote:

 

> Everyone has his opinion.  I think that Bill Burroughs Jr.'s SPEED, is one of

> the 10 or so best books from the 60's.  I think it is excellent.  It is a

> great coming of age novel - testing limits, friendships and, of course drugs.

>  I don't think there is a better book about the scarey speed scene that arose

> in New York in the late 60's.

> 

> Bill Burroughs Jr., basically gave up on life.  Alcohol was his real demon.

>  I can scarcely imagine how I would have felt if my father had accidentially

> shot my mother while I was at a very tender age - HORROR.  Bill Burroughs Jr.

> was raised my his grandparents.  WSB tried to help, esp. Billy later in life.

>  I'm sure he felt pretty guilty.  In any case, SPEED is a good read (not a

> hard read like many of his Dad's books).

> 

> Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:57:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Question for Bentz as a lawyer

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971030094119.00696af0@pop.tiac.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I think what Gerry was meaning is that until the estate started selling

things off, they didn't really care who was handling the archive.  It was

the "mishandling" of the archive that prompted Jan to try to insinuate her

rights to it.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:19:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Inspiration

 

In a message dated 97-10-29 12:08:19 EST, you write:

 

<< It comes blundering over the

 Boulders at night, it stays

 Frightened outside the

 Range of my campfire

 I go to meet it at the

 Edge of the light.

  >>

 

   any particular reason why each line is capitalized? any thoughts? does

this add to signifigance of piece?

                                     ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:22:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Neil re: Bill Burroughs jr.

In-Reply-To:  <199710301551.KAA21261@pike.sover.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I'm starting to feel like a stodgy old curmudgeon. It's now 5-1. Perhaps I

should go back and read Kentucky Ham, and maybe Speed again. It has been

about 5 or 6 years since I read Speed. Perhaps I was missing something. If

it's in at the library I'll put it in the queue somewhere after bpNichol's

"An H in the Heart" and Alfred Jarry's Selected Works.

 

Horribly outvoted, hopefully not outmoded

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:41:32 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Neil re: Bill Burroughs jr.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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outvoted does not mean you must be in the wrong.

question authority

i do so to myself at least daily.

ho

mc

 

Neil Hennessy wrote:

 

> I'm starting to feel like a stodgy old curmudgeon. It's now 5-1. Perhaps I

> should go back and read Kentucky Ham, and maybe Speed again. It has been

> about 5 or 6 years since I read Speed. Perhaps I was missing something. If

> it's in at the library I'll put it in the queue somewhere after bpNichol's

> "An H in the Heart" and Alfred Jarry's Selected Works.

> 

> Horribly outvoted, hopefully not outmoded

> Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:38:53 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Concordance for Lunch

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Thanks Neil for reminding me to visit Luke's awesome Burroughs page. I love

to browse, pick up nuggets and gems here and there. As always I feel

refreshed and newly enlightened after browsing his Memorial Museum and

scientific laboratory for the imagination.

leon

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Thursday, October 30, 1997 7:26 AM

Subject: Concordance for Lunch

 

 

>Howdy All,

> 

>I just dropped by Luke Kelly's site, and he's put up a Naked Lunch

>concordance! My applause and gratitude go out to Luke for this incredibly

>useful service he provided gratis, for no other reason than devotion to

>the work of WSB. So if you've got the barest fragment of a quotation, the

>source is only a few clicks away. Great work Luke. His site is at

>http://www.bigtable.com

> 

>Neil

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:49:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Gallaher

 

In a message dated 97-10-30 06:51:12 EST, you write:

 

<< 

 >Dear Mr. Gallaher,

 >

 >     Why do you find it nessisary to attack my request?  Do you find it

 >funny to point fingers and mock me?  Is that what your mental abilities

 >allow you to do, or am I over exaggerating you mental capabilities by

 >giving you that much credit?  Perhaps you simply thought I would find

 >being mocked and ridiculed publicly funny?  Perhaps when you look in the >>

 

OH JESUS!

here we go again....personally i enjoy the poets on the list and for the

chance to post any of my poetry. simmer down, you all. Really.... this list

needs a mom, to control all the outbursts. relax people....let it go.....

 

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:04:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: lately i just

 

moving marie...i simply love it. sounds like an excellent performance pice.

BTW, i'm a performing poet, and i wondered if you'd mind if i performed your

piece at a local coffeehouse here in south florida. i'll let them know the

piece isn't mine. do you mind? i just love this piece. Its stirring.

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:08:20 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder vs JK's spin on GS

MIME-Version: 1.0

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David

 

You are asking about the portrait of Gary Snyder as Japhy Ryder in

Dharma Bums.   I think the question could probably only be answered

really accurately by someone who know both Jack and Gary then, and even

then it's just another subjectivity.

 

I have never heard the basic accuracy of this portrait questioned.

Seeing Gary now it is easy to imagine him as the young "Japhy."

Obviously he grew from that point.  However, with Snyder most of the

pieces that make him what he is were already there.  He was already a

serious student of Asian languages and religion, particularly Zen

Buddhism and a preoccupation with the natural world and particularly the

American West. I've gathered that at times Snyder has grown rather tired

of being seen only as "Japhy" which is understandable.  I do think that

Japhy is Gary as Jack saw him.  Of course as always when we write about

friends, we focus on the part of them that impacts us, and we may miss

other aspects of the person that seem equally important to him or her.

 

Not a JK expert--

 

J. Stauffer

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:04:23 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      IN/first draft

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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dance

 

in camplight

all others ringed round the fire asleep

ceiling of skies, sleepless

 

blanket round shoulders

i sit and bend towards fire

sweat raises on shoulders

firelight warmth

sudden gust of cold, then icy fire

he appears

my wolf, my angst, my chosen delusion

if you will, my metaphor

 

and the firelight

turns to music

sweat raises to shoulders

and muscles obey

 

running electric alive

to all casual eyes

i dance alone in the desert

 

oh please,

oh please,

hear me hear out my story

because you were in it

alive alive alive

you

who are you

who are you

my

angst

my

well chosen adversary

my brother

my killer

life giver

who

 

and why then crave i sleep

the question

so easily cicles

chasing me all around leading me all around in circles

dream on

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:11:57 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Lew Welch/Genesis Angels

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Donald,

 

I'd agree.  Not a bad book.  Certainly not the sort of things that have

been done on JK.  I like the book, although I feel it is really limited

by not citing source material.  From any sort of selfish scholarly point

of view that is frustrating.  Good book as an "appreciation" or whatever

of Lew.  A real literary biography has yet to be done.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:

> 

> Just casting my vote for GENESIS ANGELS.  Great book, interior/subjective

> look at that great poet; I have a postcard somewhere from Saroyan saying

> he tried it straight, writing it as a "regular" biography, and that it

> just didn't work, so he wrote it again "Beat" style (my adjective).

> Though literally a small book, it's pretty terrific.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:14:05 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: lately i just

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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marlene, please email me privately at

country@sover.net

thanks

mc

 

Marlene Giraud wrote:

 

> moving marie...i simply love it. sounds like an excellent performance pice.

> BTW, i'm a performing poet, and i wondered if you'd mind if i performed your

> piece at a local coffeehouse here in south florida. i'll let them know the

> piece isn't mine. do you mind? i just love this piece. Its stirring.

> ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:19:57 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Question for Bentz as a lawyer

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:41 AM 10/30/97 -0500, you wrote:

>If as according to Gerry Nicosia as posted here on the beat-l a LARGE PART

>of Jan's and Gerry's reason for filing the lawsuit was to stop the estate

>from selling off pieces of the archive which allegedly had been going on

>for three years. Wouldn't that lead a jury to believe that the lawsuit is

>bogus

 

Dear Phil,    Oct 30, 1997

        Let's get one fact straight.  I never filed a lawsuit against John

Sampas, although he apparently keeps telling people that.  Matt Theado

interviewed JS and wrote the same thing in the DICTIONARY OF LITERARY BIOGRAPHY.

        The only legal action I am involved in at present is the action by

Mr. John Lash to have me disqualified as Jan Kerouac's literary executor.

In this action, it is true, he is backed by Mr. Sampas.

        In the original brief that was filed with Jan's lawsuit, she states

her concern that the Sampas family has not been properly caring for her

father's estate.  This has been public knowledge since 1994, so please stop

acting like you just uncovered a big secret.

        Your father's friend, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:37:05 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Asking an expert (was Re: Question for Bentz as a lawyer

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> 

> acting like you just uncovered a big secret.

>         Your father's friend, Gerry Nicosia

 

Gerry,

 

i imagine that you are the most expert of anyone on the list concerning

my questions about Gary Snyder vs. Jack's depiction of GS in novels.  In

your research for Memory Babe did you come across any wonderful tales

you could tell that address the differences between GS in life and GS in

Jack's novels?

 

I recognize that you are very very busy.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:39:55 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Neil re: Bill Burroughs jr.

In-Reply-To:  <971030090949_1000872043@emout06.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

 I agree, and wonder why this book hasn't gained a newfound popularity

with the rise of the whole meth thing.  I think that book is guaranteed to

scare any tweeker straight!!

Anne Sneddon

 

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Howard Park wrote:

 

> Everyone has his opinion.  I think that Bill Burroughs Jr.'s SPEED, is one of

> the 10 or so best books from the 60's.  I think it is excellent.  It is a

> great coming of age novel - testing limits, friendships and, of course drugs.

>  I don't think there is a better book about the scarey speed scene that arose

> in New York in the late 60's.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:48:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder vs JK's spin on GS

In-Reply-To:  <3458BF04.109D@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I seem to remember that Gary pronounced Kerouac's portrayal of him in

Dharma Bums as pretty accurate and was agreeable about the whole thing.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:48:38 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Question for Bentz as a lawyer

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:41 AM 10/30/97 -0500, Phil Chaput wrote:

 Wouldn't that lead a jury to believe that the lawsuit is

>bogus and made up just to find a way to stop the estate from selling items

>that they legally owned.

 

Dear Phil, Maher, Gyenis & Company:

 

        FRANKLY I AM GETTING DAMN TIRED OF YOUR INSINUATIONS EVERY DAMN DAY

THAT I AM A CROOK AND THAT JAN IS A CROOK AND/OR THAT I PUT HER UP TO A

"BOGUS LAWSUIT."

        The lawsuit was based on several key pieces of evidence, which included:

        1) the report by New ENgland Legal Investigations, one of the best

handwriting analysis firms in the country, used extensively by the fed

govt., that Gabrielle Kerouac's signature is "an obvious forgery"; and

        2) two sworn depositions by the one living "witness" to the will,

CLifford Larkin, that he never actually saw Gabrielle sign the will, in fact

he never in his life even saw her move either of her hands.

        That kind of evidence would be enough for me or anyone else to

conclude their grandmother's will was probably forged.

        If you have evidence that I put Jan up to a "bogus lawsuit," please

let us know what this evidence is.  Otherwise I will conclude you and your

friends are malicious slanderers.  Or maybe YOU'RE just a bunch of crooks.

        Not saying you are, but how do YOU like getting called a crook for a

change?

        Your father's friend, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:54:11 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      insomnia 4

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

(i think)

in dreamless nights

 

in dreams, i remember flying over the old spartan homelands

-the freedom

-the altitiude

-my shadow cast on the capes

 windspread wide and proud.

 

i no longer dream of flying,

 i no longer dream at all.

 

(I hail from the country of In Somnia

I=92m only here to gather some ingredients:

bane of darkness

wort of light

bones of a robin)

 

[the condescending smile of an eye

 as i beg for help,

condescending incomprehending eye]

 

so rejected,

i choose to stop such public presentations

i choose to live here in my palace,

peopled by imagination.

who is to say which is which?

the corporeal or the ethereal?

 

 

i dwell on this laid awake for so many of my days

stricken by fear of wrong choice of audience

(audience needed to make alive the writer here self immolated)

dream weavers, you would no longer

be the hackneyed american paen to native blood guilt,

 

 

dream weavers you would have to be here

you would weave my passage with my message :

 

i see you pick up this paper, blessed by tears and torn

by desperations,

i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh yes it does, so pliable,

feel me,

i=92m in your pocket

i=92m here;

you awaken....

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:21:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      if blessing were like poets...(sorry a long one)

 

   If blessings were like poets and waterfalls could talk

     by marlene giraud

 

     i was reborn on a mountain top in north carolina

     lost myself in a waterfall

     in energy, power

     the power to let go

     i felt myself letting go

     pumping fibers of strength to the tips of my fingers

     generating streams of blue light

     connected to women

     to my friends

     to myself

     i wanted to climb

     crawl

     curl

     inside the raging thrusts of water

     make love

     passion

     to collide

     to recreate my self.

     i reeled and forced my soul to reawaken

     to rebirth

     to imagine        cool cool waters

     trembling

     furious

     afraid

     I was afraid!

     i held all my fears in my child hood

     in a little girl tucked shyly in the palm of my hand

     afraid

     afraid of men

     of nature

     of death

     of youth

     of impulses

        of this moment.....

     i stretched my arms like dancers do      long and full

     mists of air coating my face

     aware of nothing but water

             cold cold air

     the rush of wind

     the beating rythmns

                 I swallowed it

     let the music and magic invade me

     encompass me

                     (pass through me)

     feeling smooth wet stones beneath my feet

     slipping into a fever

      I was ALIVE

        awake and alive

      senses boiling

      gut wrenching

      i tingled  and churned

      waved my arms and hands through the moisture

      calling to it

      renaming it

      rolling it through my body

      inhaling the thrust of new life--- a new lover

i imagined myself as greenery spread along rock walls

      constantly hammered and wet

      beaten and pushed

      I felt life slamming me

      holding me

      rocking me

      beating me

      repeating me

      reliving

      dissolving discoloring

      reviving

      swirled    sprayed    spit

      taking pure breaths

      inwardly craving for the solace of my room

      to rewind

      hide again

      to be a child

      But I was angry and it overpowered me!

      i needed to let go

      remind myself of moments like these

      standing in wet sands        drippy cool

      on cliffs of my neediness

      teetering

      swaying

      letting moist winds slide inside me

      i wanted to sing-scream

            "WE ARE FORTUNATE ONES! FORTUNATE ONES!"

      and all the beauty and music and awe and vitality

      rose to my throat

      gurgle....sputter...choke....exhale..........

      mingle with the air and resonate

      in one long scream of renewal!

                  i collected the moment a million times

      reavowed my freedom

      crawled breathloessly out of the shell i had created

      all the flower fragranced poetry

      barefeet and boldness

                 The Woman I wanted to Be

       i shed my skin

      danced nude and encircled by a thousand tiny lightning bugs

       i felt the dead rise near me

       poets and nighttime friends

       teachers and campfire dreamers

       all reunited

       hovering in sweet circles around me

       guiding me

       i felt them in the pulsing of the night

       the splashed sands and falling rocks

       i held their hands

       created spheres of silvery sprinkled newness

               I was alive

            I WAS ALIVE

                       and i was Found.............

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:54:00 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: insomnia 4

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

I have to tell you that I have no words. I guess awesome is a word. But does

it describe watching miracles happening?

 

Once you know that the chains that bind and entangle and stifle and butcher

into unrecognizable shape the words that cry out from the pressure of the

squeeze, once you can hear your voice push through all of that, my god I

knew and couldn't prove it to myself even all that power of knowledge and

statement that is hiding inside  in my soul that can come through through

the shaking vibrating fibers of my body unable to keep its sovereignty

intact, well when its done, take your place flesh and bone palace and

prison, open up windows, we can exist together, we know what is inside will

come through, there will come an end to the prison in the palace of, we

already know the soul was not overpowered, can't be, will not be, so take it

easy rest my body, it's allright.

 

Dear maries, I just had to say something, so I did, look at it as a loving

friend having to say something. Now i am going to do some of my chores.

 

Love

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Thursday, October 30, 1997 10:04 AM

Subject: insomnia 4

 

 

(i think)

in dreamless nights

 

in dreams, i remember flying over the old spartan homelands

-the freedom

-the altitiude

-my shadow cast on the capes

windspread wide and proud.

 

i no longer dream of flying,

i no longer dream at all.

 

(I hail from the country of In Somnia

Im only here to gather some ingredients:

bane of darkness

wort of light

bones of a robin)

 

[the condescending smile of an eye

as i beg for help,

condescending incomprehending eye]

 

so rejected,

i choose to stop such public presentations

i choose to live here in my palace,

peopled by imagination.

who is to say which is which?

the corporeal or the ethereal?

 

 

i dwell on this laid awake for so many of my days

stricken by fear of wrong choice of audience

(audience needed to make alive the writer here self immolated)

dream weavers, you would no longer

be the hackneyed american paen to native blood guilt,

 

 

dream weavers you would have to be here

you would weave my passage with my message :

 

i see you pick up this paper, blessed by tears and torn

by desperations,

i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh yes it does, so pliable,

feel me,

im in your pocket

im here;

you awaken....

.-

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:53:41 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Carolyn Cassady (was: Al Hinkle)

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Carolyn will be speaking at the University Of Santa Cruz Kresge Hall as

part of a series on The Beat Generation next Thursday, November 6 at 4

p.m. Today's lecture is By Dianne DePrima.

 

I don't have any information to add to James' response, except that from

what i heard from John (her son) and Ann Marie (Ann Marie and Carolyn

are very good friends. They correspond a lot, Carolyn is not reclusive

at all. I thought John said that she will stay in the USA only several

weeks.

 

I can forward any requests to John, who will graciously respond. I can

not, however, offer his email address. He explained to me the reason he

is not subscribing to the list is because he can't deal with a glut of

email. I could ask him permission if someone wanted it though.

 

Hope this helps

 

leon

 

>Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:59:49 -0800

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

>Subject:      Carolyn Cassady (was: Al Hinkle)

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>Which reminds me, does Carolyn make any public appearances? Is she

>involved with anything on the Internet? Is it possible for

fans/students

>to get in touch with her, or is she reclusive?

>Anne Sneddon

> 

>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Levi Asher wrote:

> 

>> To answer the question about Al Hinkle, the real life

>> Ed Dunkel of On The Road -- he died about a year ago.

>> He and his wife Helen (Galatea Dunkel) were still living

>> in the San Jose/Los Gatos area, and were still good

>> friends with Carolyn Cassady and the Cassady kids at the

>> end, which is a sort of interesting fact given the odd

>> way they met during that cross-country trip that is now

>> Beat legend ...

>> 

>> -------------------------------------------------------

>> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                    |

>> |                                                     |

>> |     Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

>> |      (the beat literature web site)                 |

>> |                                                     |

>> |          "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"       |

>> |            (a real book, like on paper)             |

>> |               also at http://coffeehousebook.com    |

>> |                                                     |

>> |                   *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

>> |                                                     |

>> |                            "Not sunglasses, shades" |

>> -------------------------------------------------------

>> 

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:04:33 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>

Subject:      The spontaneous flow of online threads

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Jorgiana wrote:

Have you noticed that in both instances (traffic and email) the rage =

comes about (maybe) due to the fact that we are, to a degree, anonymous? =

 

 

I'd like to express a thought or two on this. I can't see us being =

anonymous. Everywthing we write is being recorded in Cyberspace and will =

come back to haunt us when we least expect it.

The second thing is the manner in which we express ourselves. Writing an =

email is not the same thing as writing a letter nor is it the same thing =

as a spoken conversation. I believe the way we express ourselves online =

is reminiscent of  or in line with Jack Kerouac's ideas about =

Spontaneous Writing, which for instance requires that you do not select =

your expressions but  to freely "follow deviation (association) of mind =

into limitless blow-on subject seas of thought, swimming in sea of =

English with no discipline other than rhythms of rhetorical exhalation =

and expostulated statement, like a fist coming down on a table with each =

complete utterance, bang!"

I believe we have seen a lot of this type of spontaneous writing on =

BEAT-L since October 15. It may not always be pleasant but we should be =

grateful for that free flow of thoughts expressed here !

 

So how would Jack Kerouac have looked upon this medium of the =

spontaneous flow of online threads ?

Would he have joined in - insults and all - or would this writer of the =

"marathon linguistic flow" (in the words of John Tytell) have kept =

hitting the <delete> key ?=20

I think he would have been busy doing the former !

 

JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:03:41 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         DawnDR <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Bob Kaufman Award & PEN dinner

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

Dear Marie, Gerry and others ---

 

I'm teaching an Intro. to Lit. course at Montclair State U. this fall --- 5

p.m. mix of half second-career people in 30s and 40s and the rest about 18

through 20s.  I made it the "outsider" theme -- using Beat poetry, fiction and

nonfiction prose, as well as a great collection of African-American poetry ---

TROUBLE THE WATER.

 

Point?? -- After an initially lethargic 2 sessions, I assigned Kaufman's "Jazz

Chick," "O-Jazz-O" and "Round About Midnight," with other selections.  What a

turnon for the class --- They really started moving -- taking in the rhythms,

the sensuality, etc.

 

What I say, Gerry?  Just glad that you re-illuminated Kaufman's work.

 

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:37:50 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Possibly repeat:  Carolyn Cassady (was: Al Hinkle)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Please dlete if this is a repeat. I have not received an acknowledgment when

I sent it before. Thanks.

-----Original Message-----

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@hotmail.com>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Thursday, October 30, 1997 11:53 AM

Subject: Re: Carolyn Cassady (was: Al Hinkle)

 

 

>Carolyn will be speaking at the University Of Santa Cruz Kresge Hall as

>part of a series on The Beat Generation next Thursday, November 6 at 4

>p.m. Today's lecture is By Dianne DePrima.

> 

>I don't have any information to add to James' response, except that from

>what i heard from John (her son) and Ann Marie (Ann Marie and Carolyn

>are very good friends. They correspond a lot, Carolyn is not reclusive

>at all. I thought John said that she will stay in the USA only several

>weeks.

> 

>I can forward any requests to John, who will graciously respond. I can

>not, however, offer his email address. He explained to me the reason he

>is not subscribing to the list is because he can't deal with a glut of

>email. I could ask him permission if someone wanted it though.

> 

>Hope this helps

> 

>leon

> 

>>Date:         Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:59:49 -0800

>>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>>From: ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

>>Subject:      Carolyn Cassady (was: Al Hinkle)

>>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>> 

>>Which reminds me, does Carolyn make any public appearances? Is she

>>involved with anything on the Internet? Is it possible for

>fans/students

>>to get in touch with her, or is she reclusive?

>>Anne Sneddon

>> 

>>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Levi Asher wrote:

>> 

>>> To answer the question about Al Hinkle, the real life

>>> Ed Dunkel of On The Road -- he died about a year ago.

>>> He and his wife Helen (Galatea Dunkel) were still living

>>> in the San Jose/Los Gatos area, and were still good

>>> friends with Carolyn Cassady and the Cassady kids at the

>>> end, which is a sort of interesting fact given the odd

>>> way they met during that cross-country trip that is now

>>> Beat legend ...

>>> 

>>> -------------------------------------------------------

>>> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                    |

>>> |                                                     |

>>> |     Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

>>> |      (the beat literature web site)                 |

>>> |                                                     |

>>> |          "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"       |

>>> |            (a real book, like on paper)             |

>>> |               also at http://coffeehousebook.com    |

>>> |                                                     |

>>> |                   *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

>>> |                                                     |

>>> |                            "Not sunglasses, shades" |

>>> -------------------------------------------------------

>>> 

>>.-

>> 

> 

> 

>______________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:31:36 -0800

Reply-To:     jdbooks@iname.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "J.D. Books" <jdbooks@ROCKETMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: WSB - question from the gallery

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

Dear David,

 

I too am a great admirer of the works which William S. Burroughs

produced and have spent close to a year both purchasing and studying

his titles.  I had the pleasure of meeting him on one occasion and was

at his funeral.

Though there are several people whom I could write about (Beethoven,

Philip Larkin, A. Rich, Jack Kerouac, ad infinitum), I too would like

to write an academic publication regarding Burroughs' works.  His

insight into the disordered and random bombardment of unsolicited

images which society is exposed to each day was recognized as early as

his works dealing with the "cut-up" and "fold-in" techniques (Minutes

to Go, The Exterminator, and culminating in The Third Mind), - He

would probably like me to give Brion Gysin credit on the discover of

the cut-up technique.  His observations, especially those which

focused on the randomness of "Reality," caused by "the Word virus,"

the mirror-like photographs produced by Ian Sommerville - the cover

for the Olympia Press edition of The Ticket That Exploded is a

wonderful example, (and which he later expounded upon with his

shot-gun art), foresaw "Chaos" theory years ahead of the scientific

community.

 

His theories on the abuses available to those in CONTROL are

wonderfully articulated in his earlier works such as TIME (where such

a seemingly obvious notion as that those who are in control of the

major media outlets - Time-Life, Newsweek, CNN, and the major

newspapers such as The Washington Post and The New York Times (whose

boilerplate he may have cut-up to read "All the print that fits the

news,"), have the wherewithal to actually CREATE the objective news we

read.  Take for example a publication such as Newsweek - by the time

it reaches the stands, it full of the "news" events from both the

previous week but also sets the tone for what's to come.  By creating

and deciding what is news worthy - they and other media outlets can

later follow up and give life to these "created" articles.  In

articulating the environment in which he lived during his days as a

Junkie, he observed that before a Federal Narcotics Bureau had been

formed, the heroin issue/problem was relegated to a small group of

park hussler's whose activities if covered at all, were relegated to a

paragraph at the end of a newspaper.  He saw that today the same topic

has been moved to the front page headlines, where the same issue has

been defined in terms of "the American drug epidemic," and the need

for a continued "War on Drugs."

 

He, as well as Ginsberg, spent much time investigating the reported

"growth" in drug consumption only to find that around 1920 or so,

doctors were being arrested, imprisoned, and continually harassed if

they were prescribing pain-alleviating medication which contained any

derivate of Opium.  This was being done in spite of the fact the the

U.S. Supreme Court had made a clear ruling (the case name I cannot

presently recall, but involved an issue of interpretation into The

Harrison Drug Act).  The court ruled that doctors should not be

prevented from choosing a treatment, which in their professional

opinion would aid their patients sufferings.  This was in accord with

a Doctor's Hippocratic Oath to heal their patients sufferings.

 

The result of the massive onslaught against the physicians (and the

legal fees many incurred to prevent themselves from going to jail),

was to stifle the medical profession from dispensing habit forming

pain-killers.  Burroughs, Ginsberg, and others were of the opinion

that this resulted in driving a once, relatively small number of

addicts (many who were "employed and respected individuals," in

contrast to the stereotypical "addict" society is led to believe

exists), into searching for other avenues for their addictions.  These

people were now forced to become "criminals" by seeking proscribed

"drugs" on the streets.  Burroughs' understand the driving impetus

behind the change (those addicted to control and power), which has

resulted in the overcrowded prisons (a good percentage full of

non-violent drug users who were arrested for the possession of illegal

drugs), which our society faces today.

 

His "Algebra of Need," a metaphor for the myriad of addictions which

exist today (i.e. power, drugs, money, sex, control etc.), is clear in

its identification of those addicted to power and control of others as

the driving force behind our governments policy towards drug

addiction.  There is a tremendous amount of money generated by a penal

system which continues to arrest drug users and imprison them, with

only a minimal emphasis spent on prevention and cure.  It's a

lucrative and repetitive cycle for those involved, and addicted, to

the "rewards" our penal system offers.  Many attorneys, courts and

their subsequent fees, police officers, judges, prison wardens and

guards ect., will continue to have their addictions to power and money

fed, while those in need of medical, spiritual, and economic aid

continue to suffer as a result.

 

Burroughs claimed that his "recovery" from his heroin addiction,

(acquired with the aid of the Apomorphine Cure he received from Dr.

Dent in England), worked by regulating the body's natural metabolic

systems until the drug could be eliminate from its system.  It sharply

reduced the "Junk Sickness," which prevents other addicts from

discontinuing its use.  Why?, he wondered was this treatment never

permitted a license for usage in America.  He knew there was too much

money to be gained on behalf of the pharmaceutical companies (with

their myriad of available ailments which generate billions of dollars

annually), to permit such a simple, less costly cure.  [I believe that

either heroin or methadone use is permitted in England where the "drug

problem" is not near as great as what has resulted by the use of our

system of criminalization].

 

As to your question regarding the opening of Dead City Radio:

 

> 1)  William's Welcome -- On Dead City Radio -- What are you here for?

> We're all here to go into space!!!  -- or somesuch.  Does this text

> appear somewhere in writing that I might want to track down?

> 

though I am not with my reference material at the moment, i believe it

originates from Brion Gysin's book entitled: The Process. If you have

access to RE/SEARCH #4/5 it too lists the source so check there.

 

As to your inquiry into Burroughs' statement:

 

> 2)  A line without a context.  Somewhere I have seen in connection or

> quotation with William Burroughs the following line "Travel is

> necessary, living isn't" or something like that.  Any help in tracking

> down where that might come from???

> 

I will gladly get back to you fore he made a few statements that come

to mind, but one can be found on p. 21 of the Penguin paperback

edition of The Job. "Navigare neccesse es. Vivare no es necesse." -

"It is necessary to travel.  It is not necessary to live."

 

If you get a chance I would be interested in seeing/obtaining a copy

of your term-paper which you feel needs some revision:

 

perhaps it is time

> as a very long term project to begin to re-write this project from the

> beginning

 

Best of luck with your endeavor -

 

Jonathan Baker

 

 

===

Jonathan Baker

c/o J.D. Books

P.O. Box 10307

Kansas City, MO. 64171-0307

U.S.A.

1-(816)-561-5702

Web: http://www.abebooks.com/home/JDBOOK/

 

 

 

---RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET> wrote:

> 

> Well I have my other computer set up in the bedroom writing table area

> now.  One thing I found on it was a fairly shabby master's thesis

about

> the language strategies of the advocates for space colonization.  It

> seems that for a number of reasons it is time to slowly begin to

> translate the significant work i did on that project into something

that

> is REAL!!!!

> 

> And William S. Burroughs writings are certainly an influence since

then

> which need to be spliced into the stew.  So questions from the Gallery

> for potential threads or backchannel replies (for the timid).

> 

 

 

> 3)  How does number 2 relate to WSB's attitude towards Neal's motion

> without purpose lifestyle?  Just opinions there -- anybody? anybody?

> 

> 4)  Stasis Horrors.  This seems to be a biological argument by WSB for

> movement -- I've seen and heard of it many many times.  Can folks help

> me out with specific references.

> 

> 5)  Anything and everything else :)

> 

> my rather immature examination before led to a conclusion concerning

the

> use of frontier myths and metaphors as well as science fiction and

> fantasy themes as a means to almost hypnotize the audience into a lack

> of interest in the technical arguments.  To me this should have been

the

> first chapter and go from there.  Unfortunately, the adviser had other

> notions.  I have much more respect for him now -- but  I'd suggested

towards an ending that the future of the

> universe may only know.

> 

> Other backchannel requests:

> 

> Many of you are beginning to understand that i REALLY AM illiterate in

> the sense of literature.  I know how to treat politics as a text,

> foreign policy decisions as texts, and employ literary critical

tools in

> examining them -- often finding soap opera generes at work :)

> 

> If you can suggest backchannel things i should look into in terms of

> literature and narrative in the following areas that relate to this

long

> term project I'd appreciate it.

> 

> Frontier themes:  I am very deep on the philosophy and history of the

> frontier notions of American history.  I know nothing about the

literary

> experience.

> 

> Science fiction:  About the only science fiction I've read to date are

> things which appear within the texts of presumably non-fiction books

> like Gerard O'Neill's The High Frontier and the like.

> 

> Science fantasy:  I understand the distinctions here between fiction

and

> fantasy but that is as far as I go.

> 

> In terms of suggestions -- I'd ask for notions that are:

> 

> 1)  Classics within these genres so to speak (from your perspective)

> 

> 2)  Possibly connected to the readings of WSB (if this is possible to

> guess).

> 

> Any help is appreciated.

> 

> <listening to Bruce Cockburn ... mellow finding old projects never

> completed on old computer that is now my "writing" computer.>

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> 

 

 

 

_____________________________________________________________________

Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:27:20 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      insomnia cycle (delete at will)/or chapbook anyone?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

IN SOMNIA

 

   for the fourth day

   in the fourth year

   up here in north country

each autumn

   i dwell in the land of

   in Somnia.

 

   in Somnia,

   the rules change:

   clocks run backwards

   as

   fast as ahead

   and collide,

   like two perfectly balanced arrows

   two exquistely aimed arrorws

   meeting in mid flight -

 

time

   collapses.

 

   i=92ve tried

   doctors

   pills!

   special pillows

   herbal remedies

   warm milk!

   relaxation, meditation

   chants!

   (and furtive readings from the =91self help=92

   corner of local bookstore )

 

   hell,

   i=92ve even taken to ale again

   as my corner store is a

   redemption center!

 

   redemption through ales!

   they=92ve told me they miss my bottles,

   and my pockets of change for replacements

   (hell,

   i think  when abstinent,

   they preyed for my redemption!)

 

   but,

   nothing changes.

   Until, 72 hours into

   black night slowly

   inching its way to dawn,

   i look out my window

   and

   see the first snow fall

   of autumn.

   i take this as an omen

   i take this as a vision

   i take this as a balm,

   and i thank the winds of change :

 

   with same disease as allen

   cooking in my body

   at times quiescent,

   other times raging,

    a life line without guarrentee

   a reminder of mortality,

 

   i

   suspect the gods are smiling on me

   giving me more time

   to store up against an early death

 

   so charged,

   writing always becomes electric,

   a force of its own :

   vowels

   consonants

   metaphors

   voices

ring in my head,

 

   so i spend time with poets

   who would rather

   stay dead:

 

   Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

   (i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow their path),

 

   or that of ti Jean,

   Kerouac :

   it=92s a critical mass:

   one can drown in water, or in wine,

   nothing sublime about that.

 

   is it an affliction,

   these extra hours,

   dark, quiet, soft snow falling

 

   or gift?

   (these extra hours

   dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

 

   i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

   hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

 

   i=92m still awake

   when daybreak changes snow to rain

   snow washed away

   in to the rain

 

   i=92m still awake

 

   i=92m still awake

 

   i=92m still awake

   oct 24, 97

~

mc

 

  lately i just keep waking       to anna, with thanks

 

 

   lately i just keep waking alone

   in the black of night

   i breathe shallow i wear earphones

   not to wake you

 

   not to wake you

   i breathe shallowly

   3 am 4 am

   mind wanders and stumbles

    stuck in the valley of consciousness

   black timelessness,

    i don=92t

   think of tomorrow, rather

   merge with the blackness

   listen to the burning

   fire

   in my ears,  break free      --the passions wax in my ears,

   and turning,

   turn up the volume on the

   sobbing stereo wailing

   i make my choice

   light the candle

   shed my

   clothes

   twirl on the balls of my

   feet and let

   my hips find their own rhythm

   scarf in hand,

   flung swirls, settles

   the lamp shadows cast,

   i dance to my anima,

   shadow cast

    i ride the fiddles

   in the midst of hurricane

   a halcyon dance.

 

   go away if it bothers you, in fact

   please go away.

   its the blackness you see

   the blackness and me

   everybody nobody knows about me

   nobody everybody

   nobody knows about me

   the song

   the vigil

   energy

 

   oct 29 97

~

dance

 

in camplight

all others ringed round the fire asleep

ceiling of skies, sleepless

 

blanket round shoulders

i sit and bend towards fire

sweat raises on shoulders

firelight warmth

sudden gust of cold, then icy fire

he appears

my wolf, my angst, my chosen delusion

if you will, my metaphor

 

and the firelight

turns to music

sweat raises to shoulders

and muscles obey

 

running electric alive

to all casual eyes

i dance alone in the desert

 

oh please,

oh please,

hear me hear out my story

because you were in it

alive alive alive

you

who are you

who are you

my

angst

my

well chosen adversary

my brother

my killer

life giver

who

 

and why then crave i sleep

the question

so easily cicles

chasing me all around leading me all around in circles

dream on

~~~

in dreamless nights

10/30

 

in dreams, i remember flying over the old spartan homelands

-the freedom

-the altitiude

-my shadow cast on the capes

 windspread wide and proud.

 

i no longer dream of flying,

 i no longer dream at all.

 

(I hail from the country of In Somnia

I=92m only here to gather some ingredients:

bane of darkness

wort of light

bones of a robin)

 

[the condescending smile of an eye

 as i beg for help,

condescending incomprehending eye]

 

so rejected,

i choose to stop such public presentations

i choose to live here in my palace,

peopled by imagination.

who is to say which is which?

the corporeal or the ethereal?

 

 

i dwell on this laid awake for so many of my days

stricken by fear of wrong choice of audience

(audience needed to make alive the writer here self immolated)

dream weavers, you would no longer

be the hackneyed american paen to native blood guilt,

 

 

dream weavers you would have to be here

you would weave my passage with my message :

 

i see you pick up this paper, blessed by tears and torn

by desperations,

i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh yes it does, so pliable,

feel me,

i=92m in your pocket

i=92m here;

you awaken....

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:25:06 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: insomnia cycle (delete at will)/or chapbook anyone?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Marie,

 

i think you broke my personal record for insomnia this stint and i must

smile that you also produced such a lovely chronicle of the experience.=20

 

it is definitely not in my quick delete file -- it is in my sweet marie

save file

 

hope that any brainstorms which came and went are calming for you.

 

david rhaesa

 

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

>=20

> IN SOMNIA

>=20

>    for the fourth day

>    in the fourth year

>    up here in north country

> each autumn

>    i dwell in the land of

>    in Somnia.

>=20

>    in Somnia,

>    the rules change:

>    clocks run backwards

>    as

>    fast as ahead

>    and collide,

>    like two perfectly balanced arrows

>    two exquistely aimed arrorws

>    meeting in mid flight -

>=20

> time

>    collapses.

>=20

>    i=92ve tried

>    doctors

>    pills!

>    special pillows

>    herbal remedies

>    warm milk!

>    relaxation, meditation

>    chants!

>    (and furtive readings from the =91self help=92

>    corner of local bookstore )

>=20

>    hell,

>    i=92ve even taken to ale again

>    as my corner store is a

>    redemption center!

>=20

>    redemption through ales!

>    they=92ve told me they miss my bottles,

>    and my pockets of change for replacements

>    (hell,

>    i think  when abstinent,

>    they preyed for my redemption!)

>=20

>    but,

>    nothing changes.

>    Until, 72 hours into

>    black night slowly

>    inching its way to dawn,

>    i look out my window

>    and

>    see the first snow fall

>    of autumn.

>    i take this as an omen

>    i take this as a vision

>    i take this as a balm,

>    and i thank the winds of change :

>=20

>    with same disease as allen

>    cooking in my body

>    at times quiescent,

>    other times raging,

>     a life line without guarrentee

>    a reminder of mortality,

>=20

>    i

>    suspect the gods are smiling on me

>    giving me more time

>    to store up against an early death

>=20

>    so charged,

>    writing always becomes electric,

>    a force of its own :

>    vowels

>    consonants

>    metaphors

>    voices

> ring in my head,

>=20

>    so i spend time with poets

>    who would rather

>    stay dead:

>=20

>    Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

>    (i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow their path),

>=20

>    or that of ti Jean,

>    Kerouac :

>    it=92s a critical mass:

>    one can drown in water, or in wine,

>    nothing sublime about that.

>=20

>    is it an affliction,

>    these extra hours,

>    dark, quiet, soft snow falling

>=20

>    or gift?

>    (these extra hours

>    dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

>=20

>    i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

>    hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

>=20

>    i=92m still awake

>    when daybreak changes snow to rain

>    snow washed away

>    in to the rain

>=20

>    i=92m still awake

>=20

>    i=92m still awake

>=20

>    i=92m still awake

>    oct 24, 97

> ~

> mc

>=20

>   lately i just keep waking       to anna, with thanks

>=20

>    lately i just keep waking alone

>    in the black of night

>    i breathe shallow i wear earphones

>    not to wake you

>=20

>    not to wake you

>    i breathe shallowly

>    3 am 4 am

>    mind wanders and stumbles

>     stuck in the valley of consciousness

>    black timelessness,

>     i don=92t

>    think of tomorrow, rather

>    merge with the blackness

>    listen to the burning

>    fire

>    in my ears,  break free      --the passions wax in my ears,

>    and turning,

>    turn up the volume on the

>    sobbing stereo wailing

>    i make my choice

>    light the candle

>    shed my

>    clothes

>    twirl on the balls of my

>    feet and let

>    my hips find their own rhythm

>    scarf in hand,

>    flung swirls, settles

>    the lamp shadows cast,

>    i dance to my anima,

>    shadow cast

>     i ride the fiddles

>    in the midst of hurricane

>    a halcyon dance.

>=20

>    go away if it bothers you, in fact

>    please go away.

>    its the blackness you see

>    the blackness and me

>    everybody nobody knows about me

>    nobody everybody

>    nobody knows about me

>    the song

>    the vigil

>    energy

>=20

>    oct 29 97

> ~

> dance

>=20

> in camplight

> all others ringed round the fire asleep

> ceiling of skies, sleepless

>=20

> blanket round shoulders

> i sit and bend towards fire

> sweat raises on shoulders

> firelight warmth

> sudden gust of cold, then icy fire

> he appears

> my wolf, my angst, my chosen delusion

> if you will, my metaphor

>=20

> and the firelight

> turns to music

> sweat raises to shoulders

> and muscles obey

>=20

> running electric alive

> to all casual eyes

> i dance alone in the desert

>=20

> oh please,

> oh please,

> hear me hear out my story

> because you were in it

> alive alive alive

> you

> who are you

> who are you

> my

> angst

> my

> well chosen adversary

> my brother

> my killer

> life giver

> who

>=20

> and why then crave i sleep

> the question

> so easily cicles

> chasing me all around leading me all around in circles

> dream on

> ~~~

> in dreamless nights

> 10/30

>=20

> in dreams, i remember flying over the old spartan homelands

> -the freedom

> -the altitiude

> -my shadow cast on the capes

>  windspread wide and proud.

>=20

> i no longer dream of flying,

>  i no longer dream at all.

>=20

> (I hail from the country of In Somnia

> I=92m only here to gather some ingredients:

> bane of darkness

> wort of light

> bones of a robin)

>=20

> [the condescending smile of an eye

>  as i beg for help,

> condescending incomprehending eye]

>=20

> so rejected,

> i choose to stop such public presentations

> i choose to live here in my palace,

> peopled by imagination.

> who is to say which is which?

> the corporeal or the ethereal?

>=20

> i dwell on this laid awake for so many of my days

> stricken by fear of wrong choice of audience

> (audience needed to make alive the writer here self immolated)

> dream weavers, you would no longer

> be the hackneyed american paen to native blood guilt,

>=20

> dream weavers you would have to be here

> you would weave my passage with my message :

>=20

> i see you pick up this paper, blessed by tears and torn

> by desperations,

> i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh yes it does, so pliable,

> feel me,

> i=92m in your pocket

> i=92m here;

> you awaken....

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:34:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: WSB - question from the gallery

In-Reply-To:  <19971030223136.8140.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, J.D. Books wrote:

 

> Take for example a publication such as Newsweek - by the time

> it reaches the stands, it full of the "news" events from both the

> previous week but also sets the tone for what's to come.  By creating

> and deciding what is news worthy - they and other media outlets can

> later follow up and give life to these "created" articles.

 

On a spoken-word tape of his, Alan Watts had a little anecdote that I think

is the same principle. The way we are conditioned to look at life is that we

are constantly being pushed into the future, with little or no say in the

matter -- wherever we are going is apparent by what has already happened.

Newsweek etc. are proponents of this viewpoint, because they set the tone

for what is to come. Alternately, he said, one could turn this thinking

around by focusing on the present moment: that what is going on right now

determines where we have been and what has already happened. No deciding the

future.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:46:19 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: lately i just marlene

MIME-Version: 1.0

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give me ma due and try adn tape it. i am developing performance pieces mayself

marie

Marlene Giraud wrote:

 

> moving marie...i simply love it. sounds like an excellent performance pice.

> BTW, i'm a performing poet, and i wondered if you'd mind if i performed your

> piece at a local coffeehouse here in south florida. i'll let them know the

> piece isn't mine. do you mind? i just love this piece. Its stirring.

> ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:56:41 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: insomnia cycle (delete at will)/or chapbook anyone?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854";

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

thdnks dave i think my brain is on fire this time, i think i broke new

ground. and yeah, i've broken new psychosomatic grounds i go in for serie=

s

of tests tomorrow nervous ssystem is firing at will zippin and zappin me.

i take a small pharmacy to get to sleep. hour or so. wowza.

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

> Marie,

> 

> i think you broke my personal record for insomnia this stint and i must

> smile that you also produced such a lovely chronicle of the experience.

> 

> it is definitely not in my quick delete file -- it is in my sweet marie

> save file

> 

> hope that any brainstorms which came and went are calming for you.

> 

> david rhaesa

> 

> Marie Countryman wrote:

> >

> > IN SOMNIA

> >

> >    for the fourth day

> >    in the fourth year

> >    up here in north country

> > each autumn

> >    i dwell in the land of

> >    in Somnia.

> >

> >    in Somnia,

> >    the rules change:

> >    clocks run backwards

> >    as

> >    fast as ahead

> >    and collide,

> >    like two perfectly balanced arrows

> >    two exquistely aimed arrorws

> >    meeting in mid flight -

> >

> > time

> >    collapses.

> >

> >    i=92ve tried

> >    doctors

> >    pills!

> >    special pillows

> >    herbal remedies

> >    warm milk!

> >    relaxation, meditation

> >    chants!

> >    (and furtive readings from the =91self help=92

> >    corner of local bookstore )

> >

> >    hell,

> >    i=92ve even taken to ale again

> >    as my corner store is a

> >    redemption center!

> >

> >    redemption through ales!

> >    they=92ve told me they miss my bottles,

> >    and my pockets of change for replacements

> >    (hell,

> >    i think  when abstinent,

> >    they preyed for my redemption!)

> >

> >    but,

> >    nothing changes.

> >    Until, 72 hours into

> >    black night slowly

> >    inching its way to dawn,

> >    i look out my window

> >    and

> >    see the first snow fall

> >    of autumn.

> >    i take this as an omen

> >    i take this as a vision

> >    i take this as a balm,

> >    and i thank the winds of change :

> >

> >    with same disease as allen

> >    cooking in my body

> >    at times quiescent,

> >    other times raging,

> >     a life line without guarrentee

> >    a reminder of mortality,

> >

> >    i

> >    suspect the gods are smiling on me

> >    giving me more time

> >    to store up against an early death

> >

> >    so charged,

> >    writing always becomes electric,

> >    a force of its own :

> >    vowels

> >    consonants

> >    metaphors

> >    voices

> > ring in my head,

> >

> >    so i spend time with poets

> >    who would rather

> >    stay dead:

> >

> >    Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

> >    (i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow their path),

> >

> >    or that of ti Jean,

> >    Kerouac :

> >    it=92s a critical mass:

> >    one can drown in water, or in wine,

> >    nothing sublime about that.

> >

> >    is it an affliction,

> >    these extra hours,

> >    dark, quiet, soft snow falling

> >

> >    or gift?

> >    (these extra hours

> >    dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

> >

> >    i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

> >    hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

> >

> >    i=92m still awake

> >    when daybreak changes snow to rain

> >    snow washed away

> >    in to the rain

> >

> >    i=92m still awake

> >

> >    i=92m still awake

> >

> >    i=92m still awake

> >    oct 24, 97

> > ~

> > mc

> >

> >   lately i just keep waking       to anna, with thanks

> >

> >    lately i just keep waking alone

> >    in the black of night

> >    i breathe shallow i wear earphones

> >    not to wake you

> >

> >    not to wake you

> >    i breathe shallowly

> >    3 am 4 am

> >    mind wanders and stumbles

> >     stuck in the valley of consciousness

> >    black timelessness,

> >     i don=92t

> >    think of tomorrow, rather

> >    merge with the blackness

> >    listen to the burning

> >    fire

> >    in my ears,  break free      --the passions wax in my ears,

> >    and turning,

> >    turn up the volume on the

> >    sobbing stereo wailing

> >    i make my choice

> >    light the candle

> >    shed my

> >    clothes

> >    twirl on the balls of my

> >    feet and let

> >    my hips find their own rhythm

> >    scarf in hand,

> >    flung swirls, settles

> >    the lamp shadows cast,

> >    i dance to my anima,

> >    shadow cast

> >     i ride the fiddles

> >    in the midst of hurricane

> >    a halcyon dance.

> >

> >    go away if it bothers you, in fact

> >    please go away.

> >    its the blackness you see

> >    the blackness and me

> >    everybody nobody knows about me

> >    nobody everybody

> >    nobody knows about me

> >    the song

> >    the vigil

> >    energy

> >

> >    oct 29 97

> > ~

> > dance

> >

> > in camplight

> > all others ringed round the fire asleep

> > ceiling of skies, sleepless

> >

> > blanket round shoulders

> > i sit and bend towards fire

> > sweat raises on shoulders

> > firelight warmth

> > sudden gust of cold, then icy fire

> > he appears

> > my wolf, my angst, my chosen delusion

> > if you will, my metaphor

> >

> > and the firelight

> > turns to music

> > sweat raises to shoulders

> > and muscles obey

> >

> > running electric alive

> > to all casual eyes

> > i dance alone in the desert

> >

> > oh please,

> > oh please,

> > hear me hear out my story

> > because you were in it

> > alive alive alive

> > you

> > who are you

> > who are you

> > my

> > angst

> > my

> > well chosen adversary

> > my brother

> > my killer

> > life giver

> > who

> >

> > and why then crave i sleep

> > the question

> > so easily cicles

> > chasing me all around leading me all around in circles

> > dream on

> > ~~~

> > in dreamless nights

> > 10/30

> >

> > in dreams, i remember flying over the old spartan homelands

> > -the freedom

> > -the altitiude

> > -my shadow cast on the capes

> >  windspread wide and proud.

> >

> > i no longer dream of flying,

> >  i no longer dream at all.

> >

> > (I hail from the country of In Somnia

> > I=92m only here to gather some ingredients:

> > bane of darkness

> > wort of light

> > bones of a robin)

> >

> > [the condescending smile of an eye

> >  as i beg for help,

> > condescending incomprehending eye]

> >

> > so rejected,

> > i choose to stop such public presentations

> > i choose to live here in my palace,

> > peopled by imagination.

> > who is to say which is which?

> > the corporeal or the ethereal?

> >

> > i dwell on this laid awake for so many of my days

> > stricken by fear of wrong choice of audience

> > (audience needed to make alive the writer here self immolated)

> > dream weavers, you would no longer

> > be the hackneyed american paen to native blood guilt,

> >

> > dream weavers you would have to be here

> > you would weave my passage with my message :

> >

> > i see you pick up this paper, blessed by tears and torn

> > by desperations,

> > i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh yes it does, so pliable,

> > feel me,

> > i=92m in your pocket

> > i=92m here;

> > you awaken....

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:01:40 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: insomnia cycle (delete at will)/or chapbook anyone?

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Marie Countryman wrote:

>=20

> IN SOMNIA

>=20

>    for the fourth day

>    in the fourth year

>    up here in north country

> each autumn

>    i dwell in the land of

>    in Somnia.

>=20

>    in Somnia,

>    the rules change:

>    clocks run backwards

>    as

>    fast as ahead

>    and collide,

>    like two perfectly balanced arrows

>    two exquistely aimed arrorws

>    meeting in mid flight -

>=20

> time

>    collapses.

>=20

>    i=92ve tried

>    doctors

>    pills!

>    special pillows

>    herbal remedies

>    warm milk!

>    relaxation, meditation

>    chants!

>    (and furtive readings from the =91self help=92

>    corner of local bookstore )

>=20

>    hell,

>    i=92ve even taken to ale again

>    as my corner store is a

>    redemption center!

>=20

>    redemption through ales!

>    they=92ve told me they miss my bottles,

>    and my pockets of change for replacements

>    (hell,

>    i think  when abstinent,

>    they preyed for my redemption!)

>=20

>    but,

>    nothing changes.

>    Until, 72 hours into

>    black night slowly

>    inching its way to dawn,

>    i look out my window

>    and

>    see the first snow fall

>    of autumn.

>    i take this as an omen

>    i take this as a vision

>    i take this as a balm,

>    and i thank the winds of change :

>=20

>    with same disease as allen

>    cooking in my body

>    at times quiescent,

>    other times raging,

>     a life line without guarrentee

>    a reminder of mortality,

>=20

>    i

>    suspect the gods are smiling on me

>    giving me more time

>    to store up against an early death

>=20

>    so charged,

>    writing always becomes electric,

>    a force of its own :

>    vowels

>    consonants

>    metaphors

>    voices

> ring in my head,

>=20

>    so i spend time with poets

>    who would rather

>    stay dead:

>=20

>    Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

>    (i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow their path),

>=20

>    or that of ti Jean,

>    Kerouac :

>    it=92s a critical mass:

>    one can drown in water, or in wine,

>    nothing sublime about that.

>=20

>    is it an affliction,

>    these extra hours,

>    dark, quiet, soft snow falling

>=20

>    or gift?

>    (these extra hours

>    dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

>=20

>    i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

>    hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

>=20

>    i=92m still awake

>    when daybreak changes snow to rain

>    snow washed away

>    in to the rain

>=20

>    i=92m still awake

>=20

>    i=92m still awake

>=20

>    i=92m still awake

>    oct 24, 97

> ~

> mc

>=20

>   lately i just keep waking       to anna, with thanks

>=20

>    lately i just keep waking alone

>    in the black of night

>    i breathe shallow i wear earphones

>    not to wake you

>=20

>    not to wake you

>    i breathe shallowly

>    3 am 4 am

>    mind wanders and stumbles

>     stuck in the valley of consciousness

>    black timelessness,

>     i don=92t

>    think of tomorrow, rather

>    merge with the blackness

>    listen to the burning

>    fire

>    in my ears,  break free      --the passions wax in my ears,

>    and turning,

>    turn up the volume on the

>    sobbing stereo wailing

>    i make my choice

>    light the candle

>    shed my

>    clothes

>    twirl on the balls of my

>    feet and let

>    my hips find their own rhythm

>    scarf in hand,

>    flung swirls, settles

>    the lamp shadows cast,

>    i dance to my anima,

>    shadow cast

>     i ride the fiddles

>    in the midst of hurricane

>    a halcyon dance.

>=20

>    go away if it bothers you, in fact

>    please go away.

>    its the blackness you see

>    the blackness and me

>    everybody nobody knows about me

>    nobody everybody

>    nobody knows about me

>    the song

>    the vigil

>    energy

>=20

>    oct 29 97

> ~

> dance

>=20

> in camplight

> all others ringed round the fire asleep

> ceiling of skies, sleepless

>=20

> blanket round shoulders

> i sit and bend towards fire

> sweat raises on shoulders

> firelight warmth

> sudden gust of cold, then icy fire

> he appears

> my wolf, my angst, my chosen delusion

> if you will, my metaphor

>=20

> and the firelight

> turns to music

> sweat raises to shoulders

> and muscles obey

>=20

> running electric alive

> to all casual eyes

> i dance alone in the desert

>=20

> oh please,

> oh please,

> hear me hear out my story

> because you were in it

> alive alive alive

> you

> who are you

> who are you

> my

> angst

> my

> well chosen adversary

> my brother

> my killer

> life giver

> who

>=20

> and why then crave i sleep

> the question

> so easily cicles

> chasing me all around leading me all around in circles

> dream on

> ~~~

> in dreamless nights

> 10/30

>=20

> in dreams, i remember flying over the old spartan homelands

> -the freedom

> -the altitiude

> -my shadow cast on the capes

>  windspread wide and proud.

>=20

> i no longer dream of flying,

>  i no longer dream at all.

>=20

> (I hail from the country of In Somnia

> I=92m only here to gather some ingredients:

> bane of darkness

> wort of light

> bones of a robin)

>=20

> [the condescending smile of an eye

>  as i beg for help,

> condescending incomprehending eye]

>=20

> so rejected,

> i choose to stop such public presentations

> i choose to live here in my palace,

> peopled by imagination.

> who is to say which is which?

> the corporeal or the ethereal?

>=20

> i dwell on this laid awake for so many of my days

> stricken by fear of wrong choice of audience

> (audience needed to make alive the writer here self immolated)

> dream weavers, you would no longer

> be the hackneyed american paen to native blood guilt,

>=20

> dream weavers you would have to be here

> you would weave my passage with my message :

>=20

> i see you pick up this paper, blessed by tears and torn

> by desperations,

> i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh yes it does, so pliable,

> feel me,

> i=92m in your pocket

> i=92m here;

> you awaken....

 

marie i was inspired to find my tape of your table readings and put it

in the deck.  I'm in the Lefty's right now which are still maybe my

favourites - although these insomnia poems might be close.

 

of course other causes of insomnia=20

 

Sleepless Nights

2-24-94

6:13 am shoney's bettendorf ia

 

Insomnia

What is the cause?

A disease of brain chemistry

OR

the chanting sounds

of the moans and snores

of a dear person=20

nearby?

6:14 am

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:28:09 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      WSB cameo in Harper's magazine

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I received the following message this week from Stephen Ronan of Beat

Books:

 

"For an interesting read with an unexpected WSB appearance, check out the

current (OCT) issue of Harper's---the main feature about driving Einstein's

brain cross country."

 

Has anyone seen this piece?

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:54:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Question for Bentz as a lawyer

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At 09:48 AM 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote:

>At 09:41 AM 10/30/97 -0500, Phil Chaput wrote:

> Wouldn't that lead a jury to believe that the lawsuit is

>>bogus and made up just to find a way to stop the estate from selling items

>>that they legally owned.

> 

>Dear Phil, Maher, Gyenis & Company:

> 

>        FRANKLY I AM GETTING DAMN TIRED OF YOUR INSINUATIONS EVERY DAMN DAY

>THAT I AM A CROOK AND THAT JAN IS A CROOK AND/OR THAT I PUT HER UP TO A

>"BOGUS LAWSUIT."

>        The lawsuit was based on several key pieces of evidence, which

included:

>        1) the report by New ENgland Legal Investigations, one of the best

>handwriting analysis firms in the country, used extensively by the fed

>govt., that Gabrielle Kerouac's signature is "an obvious forgery"; and

>        2) two sworn depositions by the one living "witness" to the will,

>CLifford Larkin, that he never actually saw Gabrielle sign the will, in fact

>he never in his life even saw her move either of her hands.

>        That kind of evidence would be enough for me or anyone else to

>conclude their grandmother's will was probably forged.

>        If you have evidence that I put Jan up to a "bogus lawsuit," please

>let us know what this evidence is.  Otherwise I will conclude you and your

>friends are malicious slanderers.  Or maybe YOU'RE just a bunch of crooks.

>        Not saying you are, but how do YOU like getting called a crook for a

>change?

>        Your father's friend, Gerry Nicosia

>I saw, at John Sampas' house, that piece of supposed evidence (Gabrielle

Kerouac's will) was in fact signed by two (2) witnesses and signed by each.

Clifford Larkin and Norman Barraby. The only way this would have been

accepted as such by the Deputy Clerk (who swore to this in a deposition

given to her years later) was that it was an actual witnessing of the person

who signed the will.There is no mystery here. The mystery of it all was how

it was miraculously atop a pile of papers on Gerald Nicosia's kitchen table

and all of a sudden "looked strange" to Jan Kerouac. How,(and I posed this

question on the Beat-L before but was never answered) does an elderly woman

who has had a stroke leaving her partially paralyzed, not sign her signature

in her hand in a way that isn't strange? Though the sig doesn't look strange

in the least. Maybe a little shaky....what led Jan Kerouac to this

conclusion? In her deposition,

(a public document by the way)she concludes that her collection of legal

documents and such (from royalties and miscellanea)helped shape her conclusion.

Now, the strategically placed document atop a pile of other papers is the

defining factor of things to come...maybe Mr. Nicosia could inform us (if he

chooses) why the scenario was the way Jan Kerouac described in her

deposition....Love always, Paul....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:52:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         George Spanos <gspanos@EROLS.COM>

Subject:      Looking for video

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I am trying to get a copy of "Allen Ginsberg and Friends," a video that

aired on WNET on 10/30/71.  Can anybody help?  I have videos to trade in

case you have it and are interested.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:20:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Question for Bentz as a lawyer

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Phil Chaput wrote:

 

> This is not a flame and I am not trying to insult anyone but

> Bentz I am curious, as a lawyer could you answer a few questions? Gerry

> posted this a while back. This is a direct quote.

 

Phil:

 

If a lawyer is going to give a legal opinion, he has to have the appropriate

documents and issues before him.  He also has to be familiar with the law of

the jurisdiction.  I have tried to avoid being a lawyer on this or any other

mail list.  I have heard some of Gerry's side of things.  I invite John Sampas

to the list to tell his side.  I have lay opinons, but not really on the issues

you have raised. My experience is that motivation is something that is internal

to the actor.  I have had cases where my client was in the wrong but had

nothing  but good intentions and motivations.  I have been in situations where,

in my opinion, my client had terrible motives to the point of disgusting me

personally, but was legally in the right.  Personally, I have found the fees to

be better with the latter and the ability to feel good about helping someone to

be better with the former.  So, how do you judge or give opinions on things

that spring forth internally.

 

With regard to Gerry/Jan's law suits, he may have the best possible motives,

but if the law and facts are against him, he will lose, etc.  It seems to me

that he ought to win in NM because an executor should not be allowed to

discharge a literary executor.  Their realms should be kept separate and

apart.  That is the reason for it all.  So, he should win.  The other suit

should depend on questions of handwriting analysis.  The experts can post all

sorts of opinions.

 

Judges are very human.  They are persuaded like anyone else.  Who knows where

that ends up.

 

And in the end, I am not going to go onto the list and open myself to being

asked to pass legally on situations involving list members' law suits.  When I

throw out my opinion, I want it to be my opinion, not a legal opinion.  So, I

am going to withold any opinion and also state, that right now, I have no

opinion on the Fla suit or the "truth" as I do not have the facts, documents,

etc before me.  And to be honest, I usually try my own client first more

severely than a judge or jury will to help me understand.

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:56:41 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Gallaher

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Its over, "relax"....

Keith

:)

 

>OH JESUS!

>here we go again....personally i enjoy the poets on the list and for

the

>chance to post any of my poetry. simmer down, you all. Really.... this

list

>needs a mom, to control all the outbursts. relax people....let it

go.....

> 

>~~Marlene

> 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Keith   mrsparty@hotmail.com /  I think of Dean Moriarty.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:06:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Beat Generation/Moody Blues/Son.

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        My six year old son sits cross-legged, chants OM while staring at

Yantra from inside jacket of Moody Blues' "In Search of the Lost Chord"

playing on the stereo. Eight minutes, next to wood cookstove, somewhere

else. He comes back, I ask him what he saw, what he thought. "Just near the

end I saw a covered wagon going through the mountains." The journey,

traveling beyond barriers, crossing the wild frontier. Kerosene lamps

spread a soft glow on the interior of the mobile home, wood cookstove

spreads gentle warmth. I gaze into the dark window, see a dark indistinct

shape gazing back. Nearing fifty, I think back to the city, my younger

days, some far distant existence. No way could I ever have imagined then

where I am now. I think of Kerouac, Ginsberg, Snyder, Corso, Burroughs,

realize they are the same generation as my parents. I am not my parents'

child. There is another birth that occurred other than coming out from the

womb. Another segment of that generation that claimed me, years later, as

its progeny. My young son is now sleeping soundly in his room. The record

player sits silent. I wonder who my son will claim as his parents? The

single kerosene lamp behind me reflects as two lamps in the window. If I

turn just so, the two images meld into each other, become one.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:16:59 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      outburst

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Thanks to Patricia, MC and Marlene for this frenzied outburst of

wonderful poetry to lead us to All Hallows Eve.  It is gratifying.

David R has posted a good new poem on the new beat site sponsered by

Keith.  Is it something in the air?  Rinaldo continues to post

interesting works by himself and others.  Sean Young has posted at least

two fine poems.  I hope we realize how we are blessed here.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:07:47 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      begin gallery

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http://www.sunflower.com/~pelliott/pictures.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:36:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Thanks

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P:

 

Thanks for the pictures.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 20:42:03 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Source Material

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At 08:11 AM 10/28/97 -0500, Mark Hemenway wrote:. Between

>Dharma beat and the Kerouac Quarterly, many of the Kerouac things in the

>NY Public Library and I think the infamous Lowell Collection have been

>have been listed.

> 

>For those who are unfamiliar with the NY Public Library, the Berg

>Collection is a division of the library. It's not like the OTR scroll is

>sitting on a shelf in the stacks or in a filing cabinet on 42nd Street.

>The Berg is a major archival collection of original literary material.

 

Oct 30, 1997

 

Two corrections to M. Hemenway:

 

Mr. Hemenway's publication DHARMA BEAT never listed the existence of the

MEMORY BABE archive, which is right under his nose at U Mass, Lowell.  I

sent him a couple of letters complaining about his oversight, since he

listed every other major archive in the country.  There is more material on

Jack Kerouac in the MEMORY BABE archive at U MASS Lowell than in any other

archive in the world, and there is more actual writing BY Jack Kerouac than

you can find anywhere except the Berg Collection at the NY Public Library.

Mr. Hemenway ignored my letters pointing out his oversight.

 

Mr. HEMENWAY is wrong, the ON THE ROAD scroll is not owned by the New York

Public Library, nor is it available for study there.  It was briefly housed

in a glass showcase there, as a temporary exhibit, which saved Mr. Sampas

storage fees.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:08:30 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Mr. Maher's Accusations

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At 07:54 PM 10/30/97 -0500, Paul Maher wrote:.

>Now, the strategically placed document atop a pile of other papers is the

>defining factor of things to come...maybe Mr. Nicosia could inform us (if he

>chooses) why the scenario was the way Jan Kerouac described in her

>deposition....Love always, Paul....

                                                                Oct 30, 1997

        There was no "strategically placed document."  Rod Anstee had sent

me a copy of Gabrielle Kerouac's will a few weeks earlier.  He probably got

it from Mr. Sampas when they were having tea together.  Since Jan and lawyer

Tom Brill were meeting at my house, it was natural that they would want to

take a look at the will.

        My story was told in detail to Mr. Sampas's lawyer two and one half

years ago.  The deposition is in Mr. Sampas's house.  I'm surprised he

hasn't shown it to you.  Perhaps he doesn't trust you.

        LET ME SAY THIS--if I had conspired in any way to push Jan Kerouac,

trick, coerce or coax her to file a "bogus lawsuit" against the Sampases,

Mr. Sampas would have the evidence in his hand right now. And he'd have you

and Mr. Chaput waving it in everyone's faces.

        HOW SO?

        Because John Lash illegally locked up Jan Kerouac's entire apartment

full of papers and files after she died.  Those papers should have gone

directly to me as her literary executor.  Instead I had to battle in court

to get them.  Mr. Lash's lawyers finally sent them to me last June, after

being confronted with a court order compelling them to do so.

        So Mr. Lash's lawyers had a full year to pore over those papers,

Jan's correspondence, etc., which included nearly 100 letters from me,

Gerald Nicosia.  Mr. LASH'S LAWYERS WENT THRU THOSE PAPERS WITH MINUTE

SCRUTINY.  And since they are working closely with Mr. Sampas's lawyers, YOU

CAN BET IF THEY HAD FOUND SOMETHING INCRIMINATING, THEY WOULD IMMEDIATELY

HAVE TURNED IT OVER TO MR. SAMPAS.

        You know what?  They couldn't find anything, even in my 100 letters

to Jan, or in her notes about our relationship, that indicated I had forced

or cajoled her to file a lawsuit.  Not one thing Mr. Sampas could use

against me.

        So where's the smoking gun, Paul?  I'm still waiting.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:21:26 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Jack Kerouac hated his sister???

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At 05:18 PM 10/27/97 -0500, Paul Maher wrote:

>Since this seems to be the one quote used incessantly, I quote from a

>notebook of Jack Kerouac's which, in my opinion, strikes me as being just as

>valid as anything mentioned from you in the same vein....

> 

>  "may God make me a millionaire someday so I wont lend or leave anything to

>any Blakes."

                                Oct 30, 1997

Paul,

        I find this very difficult to accept.  Jack's sister was a

Blake--she died a Blake, since though her husband had left her, they were

never formally divorced.  She was Caroline Blake.  Her son Little Paul was

also a Blake: Paul Blake, Jr.  Jack and Memere loved Caroline dearly, and

both of them went into a severe depression when she died.  There are letters

that attest to this, including letters they both wrote to Stanley

Twardowicz.  Jack's love for Lil Paul is quite clear in THE DHARMA BUMS,

where he calls him Little Luke.  I cannot believe he would say such a

hateful thing about them.

        It's true Jack didn't like Nin's husband, Paul senior, because he

had borrowed five thousand dollars from Jack and never repaid it; then, too,

he cheated on Nin and left her.  But that would hardly make Jack and Memere

turn against Caroline and her son Little Paul.

        I question the accuracy of your quotation.  Where can we see a

facsimile of this passage in Jack's own handwriting?  Can you post it on

your website?  It would be especially important to have some of the context

around it.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:16:46 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Speaking of Poets... (one more just for fun)

 

John - these Gilligan poems are FABULOUS!!!  both wonderful and hilarious.  do

write anything of a more "serious" nature?

 

ciao,  sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:11:31 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: begin gallery

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Patrica,

 

The photos are wonderful.  The one of you, david and charles, and a few

others were not loading for me tonight--I'll try again.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:39:58 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      tim leary

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Has anybody yet read the latest timothy leary book, the one that deals

with his death???

 

i haven't got up the guts to get it yet.

 

cathy

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Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:05:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      from galler visitor

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Thanks very much Patricia. Do you know or remember what it is at the extreme

left on top of William's bookcase? Is it a CD jewelcase...?   ...or a

collage of some kind?

 

                Antoine

 

>http://www.sunflower.com/~pelliott/pictures.html

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:09:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      ...and further comments

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Excellent final picture of William and the picture of  Charlie also...would

be great to see the ones of he and Billy together ...seems to be strong

family resemblance. And no better picture of the beautiful Lena and P?  Thes

will be sure to make us all regret not being there and never visiting!

 

        It looks like the naming of the files is what's causing the load

problem.

 

        Antoine

 

 

 

>http://www.sunflower.com/~pelliott/pictures.html

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:40:12 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: from galler visitor

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Antoine Maloney wrote:

> 

> Thanks very much Patricia. Do you know or remember what it is at the extreme

> left on top of William's bookcase? Is it a CD jewelcase...?   ...or a

> collage of some kind?

> 

>                 Antoine

> 

> >http://www.sunflower.com/~pelliott/pictures.html

> >

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

I believe it is a collage, but i will try to check it out, i am sure

that james is leaving everything, such as that, as it was.

. you are correct about how i misnamed the files, i need to rename

them.. my good puter wizard took a large bunch of pictures and in a week

or so i will be able to add them.  He is out of town for 4 to 5 days at

a time.  I am very poor at this stuff.

 

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--------------72336E140D7--

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:45:30 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      petite beat, lena,

MIME-Version: 1.0

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XdmC7nOfFOV7i/tjKdxFsvOMfxH/ABrfDq0XYitJ3R4/e8XT/WtHuy4vQaD81C3GAAOQR0xU

TdkXHuaFsAOgx1rikzugkmaMR5A9etZtId2LqUjRwEIcfNj+dVRimyKsmkjn3kZgoZiQOxrr

sYvcRWOSO2al6ituCE7yOwFUCFckSAA8cUXHuPQANgUCvqTJwD9KnoUtgP/Z

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:38:06 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Viper

Comments: cc: rico <UNIR1@classic.msn.com>, Doug Penn <dkpenn@oees.com>,

          CVEditions@aol.com, beach@qconline.com

 

The Viper

 

Insidious -

so deceptive -

smoothe, beautiful

in its sensuous grace

 

Which hides its

malevolent intent,

the snake glides

caressingly along

its unwitting prey.

 

The weak and the

innocent

(and the fools)

are lulled by

the viper's flitting,

forked tongue.

 

Beware sweet

innocents -

lest, in your

naivete,

the viper surround you -

crushing -

only to swallow you whole...

 

Angel, I will

be vigilant

at your side

should danger approach

I will be there-

never resting -

watching without ceasing

 

Little love -

I shall never let

my eyes be deluded

by the treacherous snake.

 

You will be safe

so long as I have breath -

and my love

will transcend

all time, space,

dimension.

                                                ~sls   10/20/95

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:34:11 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: petite beat, lena,

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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beautiful petite individualist! mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

>  [Image]

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:00:40 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Lew Welch/Genesis Angels

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

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James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> Donald,

> 

> I'd agree.  Not a bad book.

 

Read it yesterday at the terminal and will probably read it at filling

station on Sunday again.  I enjoyed the amount of information about

Welch's methods which made it into the work.  I was a bit taken by the

actuality (not the potentiality - it is always there) of the ending.  It

will help in re-reading to know where it ends.

 

 Certainly not the sort of things that have

> been done on JK.  I like the book, although I feel it is really limited

> by not citing source material.  From any sort of selfish scholarly point

> of view that is frustrating.

 

For me, especially the source material would be interesting as

possibilities for further examination.  There were places where I was

saying to myself YES YES YES ... and would have loved to see someplace

else to connect these notions with.

 

Good book as an "appreciation" or whatever

> of Lew.

 

made for a very fast first read.  second read will take a little longer

and may end in a post.

 

A real literary biography has yet to be done.

 

perhaps someone here can do this.  just a thought.

> 

> J. Stauffer

> 

> Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:

> >

> > Just casting my vote for GENESIS ANGELS.  Great book, interior/subjective

> > look at that great poet; I have a postcard somewhere from Saroyan saying

> > he tried it straight, writing it as a "regular" biography, and that it

> > just didn't work, so he wrote it again "Beat" style (my adjective).

> > Though literally a small book, it's pretty terrific.

 

would love to get hands on the original version too!!!!  It might be a

slower read, less fluid, but the contrast might be illuminating.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:04:31 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Inspiration

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

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James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> David,

> 

> To get the image to work, just envision the brightness of the campfire,

> which makes the surrounding darkness deeper and even more unknown.

> Sounds out there.  Animals moving around. The Other.

> 

> J. Stauffer

> 

> RACE --- wrote:

> >

> > How Poetry Comes to Me

> >

> > It comes blundering over the

> > Boulders at night, it stays

> > Frightened outside the

> > Range of my campfire

> > I go to meet it at the

> > Edge of the light.

> >

> >         -- Gary Snyder

> >         from No Nature

> >

> > I'll need help with this one.  Not being exactly an "outdoorsman", i can

> > only try to comprehend GS here by analogy.  The best I get is some local

> > parks for a literal understanding of what he's saying.

> >

> > david rhaesa

> > salina, Kansas

 

thanks to all participating in the Snyder and Welch conversations.  I am

personally learning so much.  The 10 post limit and another thread going

keeps me from always taking everything in terms of response -- but i am

reading all and taking to heart.  The notions of Snyder on the two As

for Poets were very powerful for me -- hence the postings.  My next

phase in addition to re-reading Genesis Angels will be trying to snip

out notions of Lew Welch's method from that book.  Thanks so much for

all of your insights here.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:05:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder vs JK's spin on GS

Mime-Version: 1.0

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     There is a portion of a film interview of GS on The Kerouac ROMnibus;

     it has Snyder stating that, while Jack got the general gist of the

     "adventure" correct, that Snyder didn't recognize all of the

     attributes of Japhy as himself.  I don't remember much of the

     specifics of the interview (have to watch it again tonight).  The

     funny comment Snyder makes (and he was a master of the soundbite long

     before they ever existed) is that he wished Jack had told his audience

     to wrap their sleeping bags tighter since Snyder was tired of seeing

     on the hitchhikers on the road with their unrolling bags dragging

     behind them.

 

     just my tuppence.

 

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt h.

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Gary Snyder vs JK's spin on GS

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    10/30/97 12:48 PM

 

 

I seem to remember that Gary pronounced Kerouac's portrayal of him in

Dharma Bums as pretty accurate and was agreeable about the whole thing.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:15:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: WSB cameo in Harper's magazine

In-Reply-To:  <199710310027.SAA21446@mail.execpc.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:

 

> I received the following message this week from Stephen Ronan of Beat

> Books:

> 

> "For an interesting read with an unexpected WSB appearance, check out the

> current (OCT) issue of Harper's---the main feature about driving Einstein's

> brain cross country."

> 

> Has anyone seen this piece?

 

No, but I heard about it as well. Apparently WSB has a great line about

growing old/getting evil. I'm certainly going to check it out. I never go

around to getting a copy of the New Yorker when it had his last written

words, and I've been kicking myself ever since.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:56:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Goodbye for now

 

Dear Friends:

 

At this time, I am unable to keep with, let alone respond or contribute much

to, the volume of mail on this List.  I am temporarily signing off today, but

I SHALL RETURN.  Happy Halloween, and keep the Beat!

 

Regards,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:58:25 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: outburst

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bentz and fellow listees,

first thank you bentz, i appreciate you throwing my name in there along with

marie's and patricia's whose poetry i hold in high regard. secondly, if any

one has any feedback on my poem, please let me know. mucho thanks on a grey

day in florida,

~~marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:08:43 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: lately i just marlene

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marie,

i've seen a couple of posts discussing tapes of your pieces, are you selling

them? i'd really love a copy. e-mail me privately and i'll give you my

address. thank you for the visions....

~~marlene

M84M79@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:26:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      city lights submissions

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

has anyone attempted to send original works of poetry to city lights

publishers? They are listed in the poetry market book (1998) so maybe we

can gather a few poems for publication. If anyone can spare some advice

on how to go about this please let me know.

                                                thanks,

                                                        jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:31:20 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: city lights submissions

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

i'd also like some more info on this. thanks :-)

~~marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:41:04 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: lately i just marlene

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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no marlene i'm not selling tapes, ye gods and little fishes! i'm an apprentice

i do have a new tape out of the amnesia quartet. if you send me yr address plus

5 bucks to cover tape and posting, i'll be happy to oblige.

(i hate that old tape burn burn burn)

have a great one.

mc

 

M84M79 wrote:

 

> marie,

> i've seen a couple of posts discussing tapes of your pieces, are you selling

> them? i'd really love a copy. e-mail me privately and i'll give you my

> address. thank you for the visions....

> ~~marlene

> M84M79@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:49:32 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      tapes

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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adeal that can't be beat.

i have been awahash with aghashast when i started reading messages about

people still listening to that old tape i made.

please all in posession:

in return for it's return i will tape for you autumn insomnia quartet.

whidh i am at least proud of.

a reading i can at least not want to hide behind the tape box in.

mc

btw:

this already includes marlene, dbof ohio radio$ibrary fame/ derek

antoine, dave my pal of the night, rheasa, and i dont' know the who else

my memory is gone i can't sleep!

anyway return of tape or $5 tape ship handling lil'm broke is the deal.

swap is yr best deal, heh heh

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:53:12 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: lately i just marlene

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

marie,

here's my address:

 

Marlene Giraud

935 Lemongrass Lane

Wellington, Fla. 33414

 

where do i send five bucks? ooh i can't wait to haer them...geez, i sound like

a five year old...thanks again....

 

~~marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:23:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac hated his sister???

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>        I find this very difficult to accept.  Jack's sister was a

>Blake--she died a Blake, since though her husband had left her, they

>were

>never formally divorced.  She was Caroline Blake.  Her son Little Paul

>was

 

     True, Gerry, but I'm sure that in Jack's mind Nin was always a

Kerouac before she was a Blake.  A man with Jack's Franco-American

sense of family would never wish ill on his immediate family.  On his

brother-in-law sure, but not on Nin.  Of course, i have to wonder if he

really considered Little Paul a Blake, considering his affection for

him... maybe he considered him a Kerouac purely because he had Kerouac

blood in him coupled with the fact that he and Little Paul were so

close..

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:33:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Happy Halloween

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

This past August the idea had come to me for a WSB tribute of sorts that I

wanted to make for myself. I finally finished it today and thought I'd share

it with the list. It's nothing really, just an image, but it's constructed

soley in HTML tags -- no graphics images at all. You'll need a Web browser

that can view tables and color (most do). It's at

<http://dsl.org/m/doc/lit/beat/wsb.html>. Maybe someone can use it for

something.

 

m

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:49:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: city lights submissions

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971031112330.24720A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I would love to submit to City Lights! Does anyone know the address? I

can't afford the Poetry Market book...:(

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:23:46 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Apocalyptic Beat / Lamb, No Lion.

In-Reply-To:  <3457EB88.5A7A@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET> mentions:

Lamb, No Lion, 1958 (written by Jack Kerouac)

"...Beat doesn't mean tired, or bushed, so much as it means 'beato,' the

Italian for beatific: to be in a state of beatitude, like St. Francis,

trying to to love all life, trying to be utterly sincere with everyone,

practicing endurance, kindness, cultivating joy of heart."

 

The laste book of Bible is The Apocalypse written by Ioannes (69 a.d.)

and begin with the exhortative words "BEATUS, QUI LEGIT" meaning

"be blessed who has a vision while he is reading".

The Bible is differenced from the Veda or Upanishad (or from the

ancient greek poems) because it sides with the suffering being.

The Apocalypse (Revelation) supports the victims, and it's the book

of loneliness.

 

cari saluti da

Rinaldo.

* PD. hola, Daniel un saludo... muchas gracias. *

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:16:17 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      LAST draft

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  Autumn insominiac Quartet

 

DAY FOUR

    IN SOMNIA

 

       for the fourth day

       in the fourth year

       up here in north country

    each autumn

       i dwell in the land of

       in Somnia.

 

       in Somnia,

       the rules change:

       clocks run backwards

       as

       fast as ahead

       and collide,

       like two perfectly balanced arrows

       two exquistely aimed arrorws

       meeting in mid flight -

 

    time

       collapses.

 

       i=92ve tried

       doctors

       pills!

      special pillows

      herbal remedies

       warm milk!

       relaxation, meditation

       chants!

       (and furtive readings from the =91self help=92

       corner of local bookstore )

 

       hell,

       i=92ve even taken to ale again

       as my corner store is a

       redemption center!

       redemption through ales!

       they=92ve told me they miss my bottles,

       and my pockets of change for replacements

       (hell,

       i think  when abstinent,

       they preyed for my redemption!)

 

       but,

       nothing changes.

       Until, 72 hours into

       black night slowly

       inching its way to dawn,

       i look out my window

       and

       see the first snow fall

       of autumn.

       i take this as an omen

       i take this as a vision

       i take this as a balm,

       and i thank the winds of change :

 

   with same disease as allen

       cooking in my body

       at times quiescent,

       other times raging,

        a life line without guarrentee

       a reminder of mortality,

 

       i

       suspect the gods are smiling on me

       giving me more time

       to store up against an early death

       so charged,

       writing always becomes electric,

       a force of its own :

       vowels

       consonants

       metaphors

       voices

    ring in my head,

 

       so i spend time with poets

       who would rather

       stay dead:

 

       Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

       (i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow your path),

 

      or that of ti Jean,

       Kerouac :

       it=92s a critical mass:

       one can drown in water, or in wine,

       nothing sublime about that.

 

       is it an affliction,

       these extra hours,

       dark, quiet, soft snow falling

 

       or gift?

       (these extra hours

       dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

 

       i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

       hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

 

       i=92m still awake

       when daybreak changes snow to rain

       snow washed away

       in to the rain

 

       i=92m still awake

 

       i=92m still awake

 

       i=92m still awake

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

1993

      lately i just keep waking

 

       lately i just keep waking alone

       in the black of night

       i breathe shallow i wear earphones

       not to wake you

 

not to wake you

       i breathe shallowly

       3 am 4 am

       mind wanders and stumbles

        stuck in the valley of consciousness

       black timelessness,

        i don=92t

       think of tomorrow, rather

       merge with the blackness

       listen to the burning

       fire

       in my ears,  break free      --the passions bursts! in my ears,

       and turning,

       turn up the volume on the

       sobbing stereo wailing

       i make my choice

       light the candle

       shed my

       clothes

       twirl on the balls of my

       feet and let

       my hips find their own rhythm

       scarf in hand,

      flung swirls, settles

       the lamp shadows cast,

       i dance to my anima,

       shadow cast

        i ride the fiddles

       in the midst of hurricane

       a halcyon dance.

 

       go away if it bothers you, in fact

       please go away.

       its the blackness you see

       the blackness and me

      everybody nobody knows about me

       nobody everybody

       nobody knows about me

       the song

       the vigil

blackness

      energy

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

III

DAVE FIVE

 

dance

 

    in camplight

    all others ringed round the fire asleep

    ceiling of stars sleepless

 

    blanket round shoulders

    i sit and bend towards fire

   sweat raises on shoulders

   firelight warmth

    sudden gust of cold, then icy fire:

    he appears

    my wolf, my angst, my chosen delusion

    if you will, my metaphor

 

    and the firelight

    turns to music

    sweat raises to shoulders

    and muscles obey

 

    running electric alive currents

    to all casual eyes

    i dance alone in the desert

 

    oh please,

    oh please,

   - hear me hear out my story-

    because you were in it

    alive

you

 alive

     you

alive

    who are you

    who are you

    my

    angst

    my

    well chosen adversary

    my brother

   my killer

    life giver

    who?

 

    and with all these uquestions burning in my brain

you can see why i then crave i sleep

 this question

    so easily cicles

    chasing me all around leading me all around in circles

    to dream on

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

NIGHT SEVEN

    in dreamless nights

 

    in dreams, i remember flying over the old spartan homelands

   -the freedom

    -the altitiude

    -my shadow cast on the hillscapes-

feathers delineated in shadow shapes

     windspread wide and proud.

 

    i no longer dream of flying,

    i no longer dream at all.

 

    (I hail from the country of In Somnia

    I=92m only here to gather some ingredients:

    bane of darkness

    wort of light

    bones of a robin)

 

    [the condescending smile of an eye

     as i beg for help,

    condescending incomprehending eye]

 

    so rejected,

    i choose to stop such public presentations

    i choose to live here in my palace,

   peopled by imagination.

    who is to say which is which?

 corporeal or ethereal?

 

    i dwell on this laid awake for so many of my days

    stricken by fear of wrong choice of audience

    (audience needed to make alive the writer here self

   immolated on bed of insomnia)

    dream weavers, you would no longer

    be the hackneyed american paen to colonizing blood guilt,

 

   dream weavers you would have to be here :

    to weave my passage through my own strands of guilt :

an impossiblity through the eye of a camel..

and yet

and yet,

    i see you pick up this paper, blessed by tears and torn

    by desperations,

    i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh yes it does, so pliable,

    feel me,

    i=92m in your pocket

    i=92m here;

    you awaken....

 

  oct. 24-30, 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:14:48 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Reminder

 

People are continuing to send a lot of private messages to the list.  If

you want specific information from someone on the list or want to ask a

question that applies only to him or her, please backchannel.  This will

make the number of list postings much more manageable for all of us.

Happy Holoween, everyone.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:28:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      wsb and stephen king?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hey folks,

        let me say that i have never read any of the Dark Tower books by

Stephen King but its very strange to see a similarity between the

gunslinger in King's book and Burrough's Kim Carson in the Western

Lands/Place of Dead Roads/Cities of the Red Night series. Any thoughts on

this or am i just overdosing on M@Ms?

                                                jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:34:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Colin Galinski <7cpg@QLINK.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject:      must take a leave

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I have to take leave for a term, and would appreciate it if some kind

soul forwarded me the info on how to unsubscribe to the list.

    Thanks,

Colin

 

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~Colin P. Galinski

~Faculty of Arts & Science

~Queen's University

~7cpg@qlink.queensu.ca

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:01:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: city lights submissions

 

Fellow Beat-Listers:

 

Best I could do was pull out my '96 POET'S MARKET (times've been tough these

past two years <wink wink>) Here's their listing there, hope it's relatively

current:

 

CITY LIGHT BOOKS 261 Columbus Ave., San Francisco, CA  94133, phone (415)

362-1901, founded 1955, edited by Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Nancy J. Peters,

is a paperback house that achieved prominence with the publication of Allen

Ginsberg's HOWL and other poetry of the "Beat" school. They publish "poetry,

fiction, philosophy, political and social history." Simultaneous submissions

OK. "All submissions must include SASE." Reports in 6-8 weeks. Payment

varies.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Kisses & Starfishes from Seattle,

LD

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:16:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Lately I just...get transfixed

 

Marie et al:

 

Can I just say how won'drous it be's to sign on and find such mesmerizing,

intoxicating, almost suffocating poetic images filling up my mailbox in place

of ugly name-slanders and boring legal monologues!  Just when I was about to

check out at the front desk, I noticed how beautiful the wallpaper is in this

place! Now, I'm transfixed! Keep it comin', my friends...

 

Starfishes & Kisses,

 

LD

 

"U-Turns are sad reminders of how flat this world has become."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:21:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      An acquired taste

 

Now Now Now Be not discouraged, for this life is much like jazz --- an

acquired taste. At first, just white noise in an elevator or

halfempty/halfcrowded cafeteria --- then, all at once, explodes into passion

poppy confetti, only to be swept up in an early hour by some wise-silent

janitorial-type.

 

Oct '97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:14:58 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      gallery pics version 2

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

my gosh, my wizard reached into my computer from his place and fixed my

pictures. he has real pity in his voice for my skill, he speaks slowly

and says comforting things. like he will come a give me a couple of free

lessons,  ( notice he said couple)

 

http://www.sunflower.com/~pelliott/pictures.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:47:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: city lights submissions

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Nancy,

 

    Generally you can check out the Poet's Market from your local library...

 

Bruce

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 1:08 PM

Subject: Re: city lights submissions

 

 

>I would love to submit to City Lights! Does anyone know the address? I

>can't afford the Poetry Market book...:(

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:20:13 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      exchanging pic of mine

In-Reply-To:  <34599AAA.521A@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_878332813==_"

 

--=====================_878332813==_

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

hello friends,

letme know if i'm wrong but alot of friends exchanges

each other the photos, so i do it, sending to you this little

italian quadretto: myself (r, rinaldo) & (l, my litle niece silvia),

cari saluti a tutti saluti da

rinaldo.

 

--=====================_878332813==_

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--=====================_878332813==_--

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:40:44 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: wsb and stephen king?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971031142517.28876A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 14.28 31/10/97 -0500, "PoOka(the friendly ghost)"

<jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU> wrote:

>hey folks,

>        let me say that i have never read any of the Dark Tower books by

>Stephen King but its very strange to see a similarity between the

>gunslinger in King's book and Burrough's Kim Carson in the Western

>Lands/Place of Dead Roads/Cities of the Red Night series. Any thoughts on

>this or am i just overdosing on M@Ms?

>                                                jason

> 

> 

                'Damn!' it made the trip seem sinister and doomed.

                We drove on. Stan's arm got worse. We'd stop at the

                first hospital and have him get a shot of pencillin.

                We passed Castle Rock, came to Colorado Springs at

                dark. The great shadows of Pike's Peak loomed our

                right -- jack kerouac On the Road, part four,4,pg.253

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:56:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Rabbits (for Charles Plymell)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

                             Rabbits

                      (For Charles Plymell)

 

Charles, did you know that some rabbits live charmed lifes?

Better than nine?

The other night, I came around a curb by a small pond.

It was dusk, twilight, or close thereto.

I was watching some ducks paddle home, when

I saw something out of the corner of my eye.

It was a rabbit and it was running for the road.

It ran right up under my wheel.

I was on the car phone and said,

"Damn, I think that rabbit just ran through my tires."

A few minutes later, taking my son to soccer,

I confessed nothing to him about the possible rabbitcide.

A squashing of an undetermined view.

But there was nothing, no blood, no guts, no nothing.

The damn thing had done it, run between the tires.

I figure it was because it was on a turn.

And that it was perfect timing,

And that it lead a charmed life with a determined point of view.

 

Has this ever happened to you?

 

Bentz Kirby 10/31/97 at 5:54

First draft

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:52:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         George Russell <CodyPomera@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: WSB cameo in Harper's magazine

 

Yeah, I read that.  Didn't realize WSB had a connection with Einstein, but it

is rather appropriate, don't ya' think?

 

-George

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:56:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Samuel Fuller dead

Comments: To: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.solidsolutions.com>,

          "jjw-l@io.com" <jjw-l@io.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

The Director Samuel Fuller died today.  Right away, the name may

not ring a bell, but if you enjoy westerns, you will know his

first movie, "I Shot Jesse James."  He also filmed "The Steel

Helment", "Fixed Bayonets", "The Big Red One (with Lee Marvin)

and Shock Corridors.  Shock Corridors was about an undercover

reporter in a mental hospital.  He was a director that took on

social issues and he also acted in several movies.

 

I was not really aware of his history until I read his obit at

CNN and realized how many of his movies I was familiar with.  I

saw Shock Corridors as a child and its haunting echos still

reverberate and ring true.  But, to me, "I Shot Jesse James"

rules.  If you want to know more, the url is:

 

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/9710/31/obit.fuller.ap/index.html

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:59:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Humble Introduction

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hello all,

 

Not sure if this is the kind of list where introductions are necessary, but

I thought I'd make myself known, all the same.

 

I just joined this list today. Didn't know it existed until now (thanks

Bentz).

 

I got into the Beats primarily through listening to and reading about Bob

Dylan. The biographies on Dylan always talked about Ginsberg and Kerouac

and to a lesser extent Burroughs, so I thought I'd check them out. What a

fabulous world opened up before me! This was about nine years ago, when I

was twenty.

 

Burroughs is my favourite. Gradually, I got all his books, and to this day

I'm missing only "The Third Mind" and "Seven Deadly Sins". I've learnt more

from Burroughs than anyone else. Dylan once said that hearing good music

for the first time "set him free and taught him how to live forever".

Burroughs' prose had the same affect on me. I was dazzled. I was bewitched.

I was in awe of a man who could be so far away from the human race, yet

still so close. I related to his isolation, his alienation, more than

anything. And funny! My God, there were times when I didn't think it

possible that one man could write such funny stuff. The "Yage Letters"

crack me up to this day. The droll, deadpan descriptions of South America

and its people still puts me on the floor. When Bill died recently I felt

like I'd lost the one person in the world I could really relate to. To me,

he's up there with Rimbaud. No praise is high enough.

 

My other favourite's are Knut Hamsun (a Beat 50 years ahead of his time),

Bukowski, Fante, Raymond Carver, Hubert Selby, a little of Ginsberg (I

enjoy his notebooks more than his poetry (Howl excluded)), and my all-time

favourite novel ... Camus' "The Stranger". So as you can see, my tastes lie

with the "realist" genre.

 

Anyway, hope y'all found this innaresting. I look forward to the

conversations on the Beat list ...

 

Glenn Cooper.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:11:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Glenn Cooper wrote:

 

> Hello all,

> 

> Not sure if this is the kind of list where introductions are necessary, but

> I thought I'd make myself known, all the same.

> 

> I just joined this list today. Didn't know it existed until now (thanks

> Bentz).

> 

> <snip>

> Anyway, hope y'all found this innaresting. I look forward to the

> conversations on the Beat list ...

> 

> Glenn Cooper.

 

 Glenn:

 

Welcome aboard.  I think your post on Burroughs will be well received here.  I

knew from your posts on rmd that you would like this list, just didn't know how

deep it ran.  I also got to Kerouac and the Beats through Dylan.  But Jack is

my man.  But after your post, I think I will pull Yage Letters off the shelf

and read it again.  Never too old to learn I hope.  I have seen posts from our

Italian poet, Rinaldo, on rmd.  So, you may recognize him from rmd too.  Well,

I am listening to TOOM now, Trying to get to Heaven Before They Close the Door.

 

TOOM has gotten good reviews here.  It is a great work, and thought I don't

have the money, I am weighing springing for $25 to go see Bob Sunday.  It is

funny how three children can change your priorities.  Many times I've been to

concerts when I had less than now.  But, those jeans, soccer fees, college

tuition worries and all that adds up big time in a hurry.  Boy, I am glad that

oldest one is gone.   I can't believe I used to have four!

 

Welcome to Glenn from RMD.  May you enjoy the poets, critics and the rest on

the beat list.  Someone on here can tell you how to access the archives.

 

Later,

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:38:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

 

My welcome to Glenn, also.

 

Now --- what is RMD?  Please?

 

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:47:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Dawn:

 

RMD is the newsgroup rec.music.dylan  There is a mail list that

picks up the newsgroup postings, but it will fill up your mail

box in a hurry.  I prefer the news group for Dylan.  I would have

sent this back channel, but it occurred to me that others might

have the same question.

 

Take care,

 

Dawn B. Sova wrote:

 

> My welcome to Glenn, also.

> 

> Now --- what is RMD?  Please?

> 

> Dawn

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:51:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Soon I will be signing off the Beat List.  I would welcome anyone who would

like to talk about the Beats with me to email me at

 

jrpick@maila.wm.edu

 

I will likely be back in a while, but until then:

 

". . . how do you know what you're going to do till you do it?  The answer

is, you don't."

                                                                - Salinger

 

"None of us knew what was going on, or what the Good Lord appointed."

                                                                - Jack Kerouac

 

"'You boys going to get somewhere, or just going?'  We didn't understand

his question, and it was a damned good question."

                                                                - Jack Kerouac

 

Jon

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:02:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         George Spanos <gspanos@EROLS.COM>

Subject:      RMD

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

RMD=Recorded Music Dylan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:07:23 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Beat Women--Santa Cruz./ San Jose

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon was kind enough to post the details for Carolyn Cassidy's

appearance at UC Santa Cruz.  This talk is part of a larger series of

things on Women Beat Writers.  The schedule as I have it (and it

certainly doesn't give one much time to plan

 

Nov 6

 

"Wild Women" a panel featuring Carolyn Cassidy, Anne Waldman and Jeanine

Pommy Vega, UC Santa Cruz,  Kresge Town Hall, 4:30-6pm

 

An evening of p[oetry with Joan Kyger and Anne Waldman.  San Jose State

University, Music Concert Hall, 7:30 pm

 

Nov. 7

 

Coffee hour, mixer. Costanoan Room/ Student Union/ SJSU  9:30-10:30.

 

"Tracking the Serpent", a panel with Janine-Pommy Vega, Anne Waldman and

Joanne Kyger. Coastanoan Room, Student Union, SJSU, 10:30-noon.

 

Carolyn Cassidy Homecoming Luncheon.  Guadalupe Room/ Student Union,

SJSU, 2-3:30  ($30 per person).

 

The Other Writer in the FAmily, a panel with C. Cassady, Boobie Louise

Hawkins and Joanne McClure.  Guadalupe Room, SJSU 2-3:30 pm

(this looks like a conflict with Carolyns lunch.  I'd call 408-924-1378

to get it straight)

 

An evening of readings by Carolyn Cassady, Bobby Louise Hawkins, Joanne

McClure and Janine Pommy Vega, Engineering Bldg. Auditorium.  SJSU, 8:30

pm.

 

J. Stauffer  (schedule from the San Jose Metro)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:14:09 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Reminder

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bill,

 

At the risk of being repetive, what better argument for returning to the

alternative posting format.  That way the hurried, lazy or chemically

impaired (speaking only for myself) will automatically backchannel and

posts to the list will require a concious effort. Sounds like a more

perfect world to me.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> People are continuing to send a lot of private messages to the list.  If

> you want specific information from someone on the list or want to ask a

> question that applies only to him or her, please backchannel.  This will

> make the number of list postings much more manageable for all of us.

> Happy Holoween, everyone.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:16:24 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Heebie Jeebies Chucks Sugar Skulls

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Mac->Chinese8bit"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

You I got the heebyjeebys it's Halloween.

 

Makes me think of Burroughs writing about getting the chucks and sucking

down little Billy's sugar skull.  Course day o the dead is ma=96ana so th=

e

sugar skulls are in abundence.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:48:04 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Reminder

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> Bill,

> 

> At the risk of being repetive, what better argument for returning to

> the

> alternative posting format.  That way the hurried, lazy or chemically

> impaired (speaking only for myself) will automatically backchannel and

> posts to the list will require a concious effort. Sounds like a more

> perfect world to me.

> 

> J. Stauffer

 

I disagree James, it's a more perfect world the way it is now.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:46:43 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Women--Santa Cruz./ San Jose

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Leon was kind enough to post the details for Carolyn Cassidy's

>appearance at UC Santa Cruz.

 

Cool bro James.  You got the name right. Leon said University of Sanat

Cruz.  Of course we knew what he meant but me being an alumnus, it stuck

out at me.  And by perchance I was a Kresge student.

 

Now that I've bored youall with this

 

trick or treat

 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++

 

And, James, you've got your reply-to set to reply to you.  So if I get a

post from you and simply hit reply it goes to you, not the list, even if it

came from the list.

 

Those who like that list set p can do it themselves in their mail programs

settings by making the reply-to field their e-mail address.

 

 

>This talk is part of a larger series of

>things on Women Beat Writers.  The schedule as I have it (and it

>certainly doesn't give one much time to plan

> 

>Nov 6

> 

>"Wild Women" a panel featuring Carolyn Cassidy, Anne Waldman and Jeanine

>Pommy Vega, UC Santa Cruz,  Kresge Town Hall, 4:30-6pm

> 

>An evening of p[oetry with Joan Kyger and Anne Waldman.  San Jose State

>University, Music Concert Hall, 7:30 pm

> 

>Nov. 7

> 

>Coffee hour, mixer. Costanoan Room/ Student Union/ SJSU  9:30-10:30.

> 

>"Tracking the Serpent", a panel with Janine-Pommy Vega, Anne Waldman and

>Joanne Kyger. Coastanoan Room, Student Union, SJSU, 10:30-noon.

> 

>Carolyn Cassidy Homecoming Luncheon.  Guadalupe Room/ Student Union,

>SJSU, 2-3:30  ($30 per person).

> 

>The Other Writer in the FAmily, a panel with C. Cassady, Boobie Louise

>Hawkins and Joanne McClure.  Guadalupe Room, SJSU 2-3:30 pm

>(this looks like a conflict with Carolyns lunch.  I'd call 408-924-1378

>to get it straight)

> 

>An evening of readings by Carolyn Cassady, Bobby Louise Hawkins, Joanne

>McClure and Janine Pommy Vega, Engineering Bldg. Auditorium.  SJSU, 8:30

>pm.

> 

>J. Stauffer  (schedule from the San Jose Metro)

 

Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON>

Date:         Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:30:54 -0500

From:        

 "L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8c)"              <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      File: "BEAT-L LOG9711"

To:           Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:12:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

 

Thanks to both George Spanos and R. Bentz Kirby for responding re: RMD.

 You're right, I think, others probably do have the question.

 

And --- regarding D. Carter's post re: backchannel versus responses to the

group --- your responses are another example of why keeping this manner of

reply is better then reverting to auto replies that only go to the singular

sender.  I lurk on the list -- occasionally piping in --- but I learn and

enjoy the many posts.  Backchannel them, and I would lose a lot.  I don't

think that I am alone.

 

Thanks again.

 

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:12:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: WSB - question from the gallery

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:34 AM 10/30/97 -0500, Neil Hennessy wrote:

 

>On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

>> 4)  Stasis Horrors.  This seems to be a biological

>>argument by WSB for movement -- I've seen and

>>heard of it many many times.  Can folks help

>> me out with specific references.

> 

>The "Stasis Horrors" would correspond most

>directly with Burroughs' notions of homo sap being

>"the human artifact". He discusses this in The

>Job, I believe, as well as The Adding Machine.

> 

>I read an article in a scholarly journal from

>England that claimed that Burroughs' concept of

>getting into space was like the traditional concept

>of the soul coming free of the body, so you may

>want to examine some of the ontological precepts

>governing Burroughs' notions of escaping Time to

>get into Space. Another thing that aligns Burroughs

>with some traditional Christian notions of spirituality

>is his horror and revulsion of the body.

>This is discussed in "The Postmodern Anus", from

>_At the Front_.

> 

>I can't tell you the name of the article mentioned

>above, because unfortunately I found it in the

>University of Waterloo library through a

>search of an electronic index of journal articles,

>and UW is a hundred K away... If you want to find

>it, search a similar index of scholarly journals, with

>Burroughs as the subject, and the article appeared in

>something like "British Studies in Contemporary

>American Fiction". Sorry for the vagueness of sources,

>but you didn't expect to not actually

>read Burroughs, or go to the library, did you? ;-)

> 

>Hope this helps,

>Neil

 

Hey David et al,

 

I'll be up at UW in the next week, so I'll try to find

uze the journal Neil is talking about.

 

Mike (yes, I'm still here - but not for l o n g . . .)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:21:11 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      parties

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

to beat or not to beat

it is untidy in the posts of men

to automaticly respond,

random virus of thoughts

and words works through

space time and random

chance, empty argument

When things went askew,

and the debate waxed low,

wiliam would accept full responsibility,

totally my fault he'd call

to reach a finer discussion.

Beverly would realy astound him,

she would look him purposely

right in the eye and drone on

in long ungasping killing prose

of a chair she once sit on

of no particular care or time.

now isn't that something, of a chair exacty that way

no particular way at all.

another wild bore,

interupted him in midst of some well dug thought,

and offered felicio, little smirking mew.

later he said, why she might of bit it off.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 07:16:00 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      photos of friends never yet seen

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

thank you rinaldo!

thank you patricia!

images came out loud and clear and dear.

marie

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:51:02 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      blank generation?

In-Reply-To:  <345ACA57.479D@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        kabul

 

        the taliban government in afganistan has

        extended its ban on photographs.

 

        until now it had forbidden photography of

        people, particularly of women, but did not

        outlaw pictures of animals or non-muslims.

 

        now it is illegal to display photographs of

        living creatures because such representation

        are deemed offensive to taliban-style islam.

 

[from TIME vol.150 no.16 october 20,1997]

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 08:28:52 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: parties

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

patricia: you said it all. the pome (as all good ones should) transcends

the moment and pierces through time to the list right now.

mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> to beat or not to beat

> it is untidy in the posts of men

> to automaticly respond,

> random virus of thoughts

> and words works through

> space time and random

> chance, empty argument

> When things went askew,

> and the debate waxed low,

> wiliam would accept full responsibility,

> totally my fault he'd call

> to reach a finer discussion.

> Beverly would realy astound him,

> she would look him purposely

> right in the eye and drone on

> in long ungasping killing prose

> of a chair she once sit on

> of no particular care or time.

> now isn't that something, of a chair exacty that way

> no particular way at all.

> another wild bore,

> interupted him in midst of some well dug thought,

> and offered felicio, little smirking mew.

> later he said, why she might of bit it off.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:33:18 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: blank generation?

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971101125102.006a5d10@pop.gpnet.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>        kabul

> 

>        the taliban government in afganistan has

>        extended its ban on photographs.

> 

>        until now it had forbidden photography of

>        people, particularly of women, but did not

>        outlaw pictures of animals or non-muslims.

> 

>        now it is illegal to display photographs of

>        living creatures because such representation

>        are deemed offensive to taliban-style islam.

> 

>[from TIME vol.150 no.16 october 20,1997]

 

Off the Beat-en path, but interesting.

 

For any who have read Howard Zinn's history texts (History of the US,

History of the 20th Century...erc.) one realizes that what the Taliban

Government has publically declaired has been going on here for a long

time--not with photographs, but with what students in secondary schools are

provided by our local, state, & national governments. The Howard Zinn texts

are impossible to put down once you start reading.

 

Zinn exposes the most frightening forms of censorship--texts that exclude

information.

 

Of course this happens in the arts all the time.

 

j grant

 

           Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                           FREE

                             at

                               BookZen

                          http://www.bookzen.com

                402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:56:27 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

In-Reply-To:  Message of Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:12:55 -0500 from <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

 

On Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:12:55 -0500 Dawn B. Sova said:

>Thanks to both George Spanos and R. Bentz Kirby for responding re: RMD.

> You're right, I think, others probably do have the question.

> 

>And --- regarding D. Carter's post re: backchannel versus responses to the

>group --- your responses are another example of why keeping this manner of

>reply is better then reverting to auto replies that only go to the singular

>sender.  I lurk on the list -- occasionally piping in --- but I learn and

>enjoy the many posts.  Backchannel them, and I would lose a lot.  I don't

>think that I am alone.

> 

>Thanks again.

> 

>Dawn

 

 

 Okay, you're point is well taken but all of us have to be vigilant, then, to p

ost only relevant messages so that our mailboxes aren't filled with personal no

tes on subjects unrelated to the list's concerns.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:59:26 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: WSB - question from the gallery

In-Reply-To:  Message of Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:12:47 -0500 from <cake@IONLINE.NET>

 

On Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:12:47 -0500 M. Cakebread said:

>At 09:34 AM 10/30/97 -0500, Neil Hennessy wrote:

> 

>>On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, RACE --- wrote:

> 

>>> 4)  Stasis Horrors.  This seems to be a biological

>>>argument by WSB for movement -- I've seen and

>>>heard of it many many times.  Can folks help

>>> me out with specific references.

>> 

>>The "Stasis Horrors" would correspond most

>>directly with Burroughs' notions of homo sap being

>>"the human artifact". He discusses this in The

>>Job, I believe, as well as The Adding Machine.

>> 

>>I read an article in a scholarly journal from

>>England that claimed that Burroughs' concept of

>>getting into space was like the traditional concept

>>of the soul coming free of the body, so you may

>>want to examine some of the ontological precepts

>>governing Burroughs' notions of escaping Time to

>>get into Space. Another thing that aligns Burroughs

>>with some traditional Christian notions of spirituality

>>is his horror and revulsion of the body.

>>This is discussed in "The Postmodern Anus", from

>>_At the Front_.

>> 

>>I can't tell you the name of the article mentioned

>>above, because unfortunately I found it in the

>>University of Waterloo library through a

>>search of an electronic index of journal articles,

>>and UW is a hundred K away... If you want to find

>>it, search a similar index of scholarly journals, with

>>Burroughs as the subject, and the article appeared in

>>something like "British Studies in Contemporary

>>American Fiction". Sorry for the vagueness of sources,

>>but you didn't expect to not actually

>>read Burroughs, or go to the library, did you? ;-)

>> 

>>Hope this helps,

>>Neil

> 

>Hey David et al,

> 

>I'll be up at UW in the next week, so I'll try to find

>uze the journal Neil is talking about.

> 

>Mike (yes, I'm still here - but not for l o n g . . .)

 

 Mike, I hope you won't mind my posting this message as an example of the type

of post that should have been backchanneled rather than sent to the list.  I do

n't mean to pick on you.  We've all made such posts (including yours truly) fro

m time to time.  A post like this was just intended for one listmember.  No rea

son all of us have to read it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:35:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sylvanna Vanderpark <SylvannaV@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat Women--Santa Cruz./ San Jose

 

Hi, I'm new to the list, and pretty much new to the Beat in general, and I

was wondering if there were any fellow Torontonians out there who know of any

Beat  events like these closer to home.

 

Sylvanna

 

 

<< 

 Leon was kind enough to post the details for Carolyn Cassidy's

 appearance at UC Santa Cruz.  This talk is part of a larger series of

 things on Women Beat Writers.  The schedule as I have it (and it

 certainly doesn't give one much time to plan

 

 Nov 6

 

 "Wild Women" a panel featuring Carolyn Cassidy, Anne Waldman and Jeanine

 Pommy Vega, UC Santa Cruz,  Kresge Town Hall, 4:30-6pm

 

 An evening of p[oetry with Joan Kyger and Anne Waldman.  San Jose State

 University, Music Concert Hall, 7:30 pm

 

etc, etc, etc....

 

>> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:19:05 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.16.19971101125639.3057435a@mail.mpx.com.au>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Glenn Cooper wrote:.

> 

>I just joined this list today.

 

>My other favourite's are Knut Hamsun (a Beat 50 years ahead of his time),

 

What do others on the list think about this? Hamsun as "a Beat 50 years

ahead of his time?"

 

He's a favorite of mine.

 

j grant

 

           Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                           FREE

                             at

                               BookZen

                          http://www.bookzen.com

                402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 18:22:32 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

 

i vote strongly for the old format of sending to the individual.  if one want

something to go to the list, one will fix that, should a  post unintentionally

go only to an individual.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Bill Gargan

Sent:   Saturday, November 01, 1997 8:56 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Humble Introduction

 

On Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:12:55 -0500 Dawn B. Sova said:

>Thanks to both George Spanos and R. Bentz Kirby for responding re: RMD.

> You're right, I think, others probably do have the question.

> 

>And --- regarding D. Carter's post re: backchannel versus responses to the

>group --- your responses are another example of why keeping this manner of

>reply is better then reverting to auto replies that only go to the singular

>sender.  I lurk on the list -- occasionally piping in --- but I learn and

>enjoy the many posts.  Backchannel them, and I would lose a lot.  I don't

>think that I am alone.

> 

>Thanks again.

> 

>Dawn

 

 

 Okay, you're point is well taken but all of us have to be vigilant, then, to

p

ost only relevant messages so that our mailboxes aren't filled with personal

no

tes on subjects unrelated to the list's concerns.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:43:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: WSB - question from the gallery

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:59 AM 11/1/97 EST, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

>>On Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:12:47 -0500 M. Cakebread said:

 

>>Hey David et al,

     ^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

> Mike, I hope you won't mind my posting this

>message as an example of the type of post that

>should have been backchanneled rather than sent

>to the list.  I don't mean to pick on you.  We've

>all made such posts (including yours truly) from time

>to time.  A post like this was just intended for one

>listmember.  No reason all of us have to read it.

 

Uhh, well I was going to share the info with everyone,

but if nobody is interested I'll just forward it to David.

Sorry for trying to help . . . Maybe next time I'll

slander somebody and call them a few names - I didn't

think this offer would be any less appropriate.  {;^>

Just being honest.  This list is getting too "politically

correct" for me.

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:10:00 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Apoloogy to Tim and a few words about Dianne DePrima's reading

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I guess an apology is Beat related. If that Snata typo offended Tim there

might be others  too. My apologies to the wonderful UCSC and all its alumni.

 

Actually I can make sure it is beat related and report to you that Dianne

DePrimo was just terrific! It was not just a poetry reading. It was an

illuminating meeting of a wonderful woman and bohemian artist. It was

wonderful to see her looking so well, relating so effectively, even the

graceful hand gestures added another dimension to the feel of the words

related by  this amazing person.

 

She brought to life the New York bohemian scene of her youth  with poems

from a winter nibbling oreos all day, visiting her artist neighbors. She

read other short poems from later years in Arizona and California.

 

 Her grandfather, her favorite, was an anarchist born in Italy. Her parents

didn't like his influence on her. He would take her to midnight rallies when

she was about seven years old.

 

She didn't want a husband but did want a child so she picked the man and had

a baby girl. Today that may not seem such a big deal anymore. She described

in one of her short poems a telephone conversation with the father. When she

told him how beautiful his daughter was, he respnded with an "oh, wow>"

 

The one long poem she read was about war.  The only real war is the war on

the imagnation, all other wars are subsumed under it. The only true famine

is the starving of the imagination, I don't recall the exact words, the poem

is very powerful.

 

No small part of the fun was to see a packed auditorium with youthful face

listening with intense attention in hushed silence.

 

Unfortunately I had to leave for work soon after the question answer hour

started. An absolutely don't miss when the show comes to your neighborhood.

Even if it takes a bit of travel. You will love it.

 

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:07:37 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

In-Reply-To:  <v03007808b080ce94cfe4@[156.46.45.146]>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

friends,

 

here in Italy it's a great moment for Knut Hamsun, the novel

titled "Hunger" translated in italian ("Fame") stands out on

the bookshelves. i found a beat connection via Charles Bukowski who

quoted Hamsun such a man who eats his own flesh in order to

living and continue to be an artist (to work hard).

btw: Knut Hamsun (won nobel prize). sad Knut Hamsun was a nazi (and

a friend to adolf hitler), this fate of some artists (i.e. Celine,

Pirandello, Heidegger, etc.) is a mistery of this gone century.

 

saluto tutti,

Rinaldo.

*

At 12.19 01/11/97 -0600, jo grant wrote:

>Glenn Cooper wrote:.

>> 

>>I just joined this list today.

> 

>>My other favourite's are Knut Hamsun (a Beat 50 years ahead of his time),

> 

>What do others on the list think about this? Hamsun as "a Beat 50 years

>ahead of his time?"

> 

>He's a favorite of mine.

> 

>j grant

> 

>           Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

>                           FREE

>                             at

>                               BookZen

>                          http://www.bookzen.com

>                402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:07:40 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Docudiary On Allen Ginsberg

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Has anyone on the list heard of or seen the 1996 documentary _Poet On

the Lower East Side, A: a Docudiary On Allen Ginsberg_, directed by

Gyula Gazdag? How does it compare to the _Life And Times_ documentary?

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:36:13 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971101200737.00cb2a58@pop.gpnet.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>friends,

> 

>here in Italy it's a great moment for Knut Hamsun, the novel

>titled "Hunger" translated in italian ("Fame") stands out on

>the bookshelves. i found a beat connection via Charles Bukowski who

>quoted Hamsun such a man who eats his own flesh in order to

>living and continue to be an artist (to work hard).

>btw: Knut Hamsun (won nobel prize). sad Knut Hamsun was a nazi (and

>a friend to adolf hitler), this fate of some artists (i.e. Celine,

>Pirandello, Heidegger, etc.) is a mistery of this gone century.

> 

>saluto tutti,

>Rinaldo.

 

R,

 

It always comes as a surprise to me when I meet a writer and (s)he hasn't

read Hamsun's HUNGER. About as painful an inspiration--exampleof

dedication--that I know of.

 

Sad indeed about his Nazi sympathies. Haven't pursued that element inhis

life. Not sure he ever defended his position or explained it. I have a

friend (Poet Chuck Miller) who has considerable knowledge about the

Scandinavian writers. I'll  ask him about this the next time i see him.

 

Peace,

j grant

 

           Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                           FREE

                             at

                               BookZen

                          http://www.bookzen.com

                402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:23:26 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 97-10-31 22:09:43 EST, you write:

 

<< My welcome to Glenn, also.

 

 Now --- what is RMD?  Please?

 

 Dawn >>

 

      i'd also like to welcome glenn,

     may the beat-l teach, move and inspire you (okay and piss you off a

little)

      as it has done me. :-)

                                   ~~marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:54:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971101200737.00cb2a58@pop.gpnet.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

This brings up an interesting question. Should we discount what might be

fine works of art because of a dubious connection to something

undesirable? I, myself, am a Jew and hahve every reason in the world to

regard all things  Hitler but I cant totally discount him. I am the first

person to acknowledge that Hitler was literally a genius. He was a smart,

manipulative man but he used his intelligence for evil, so for that reason

I do not necessarily respect his genius even though I acknowlegde that he

was one, you know what I mean? Take Cat Stevens for example. He is a

fundamentalist Muslim or something, a supporter of Farrakhan but I like

his music. Kerouac wasn't fond of homosexuals but I still like his work.

Any response?

 

On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> friends,

> 

> here in Italy it's a great moment for Knut Hamsun, the novel

> titled "Hunger" translated in italian ("Fame") stands out on

> the bookshelves. i found a beat connection via Charles Bukowski who

> quoted Hamsun such a man who eats his own flesh in order to

> living and continue to be an artist (to work hard).

> btw: Knut Hamsun (won nobel prize). sad Knut Hamsun was a nazi (and

> a friend to adolf hitler), this fate of some artists (i.e. Celine,

> Pirandello, Heidegger, etc.) is a mistery of this gone century.

> 

> saluto tutti,

> Rinaldo.

> *

> At 12.19 01/11/97 -0600, jo grant wrote:

> >Glenn Cooper wrote:.

> >>

> >>I just joined this list today.

> >

> >>My other favourite's are Knut Hamsun (a Beat 50 years ahead of his time),

> >

> >What do others on the list think about this? Hamsun as "a Beat 50 years

> >ahead of his time?"

> >

> >He's a favorite of mine.

> >

> >j grant

> >

> >           Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

> >                           FREE

> >                             at

> >                               BookZen

> >                          http://www.bookzen.com

> >                402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

> >

> >

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:55:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Docudiary On Allen Ginsberg

Comments: To: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca>

In-Reply-To:  <345BA82C.1FBA@sk.sympatico.ca>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

No, but I would love to see it!!!

 

 

On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Adrien Begrand wrote:

 

> Has anyone on the list heard of or seen the 1996 documentary _Poet On

> the Lower East Side, A: a Docudiary On Allen Ginsberg_, directed by

> Gyula Gazdag? How does it compare to the _Life And Times_ documentary?

> 

> Adrien

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:11:11 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: questionable backgrounds of some authors

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

 

> This brings up an interesting question. Should we discount what might be

> fine works of art because of a dubious connection to something

> undesirable? I, myself, am a Jew and have every reason in the world to

> regard all things  Hitler but I cant totally discount him. I am the first

> person to acknowledge that Hitler was literally a genius. He was a smart,

> manipulative man but he used his intelligence for evil, so for that

reason

> I do not necessarily respect his genius even though I acknowledge that he

> was one, you know what I mean? Take Cat Stevens for example. He is a

> fundamentalist Muslim or something, a supporter of Farrakhan but I like

> his music. Kerouac wasn't fond of homosexuals but I still like his work.

> Any response?

 

My initial reaction is to remember that one is always on shaky ground when

one mistakes the art for the artist (and vice versa).  People are extremely

complicated, and can go through an incredible number of changes in a

lifetime (the former Mr. Stevens...now known as Yusuf Islam... being an

excellent modern-day example).

 

I seem to recall that Kerouac and/or Ginsberg were crushed to discover

through their research that Ezra Pound was an anti-Semite.

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 18:16:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Jack "not fond" of homosexuals

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Nancy,

 

        I couldn't let your comment about Jack's attitude to homosexuals

pass without comment...although I better be quick about this if I want to

beat the other responses the comment will elicit.

 

        I wonder what gave you the impression that Jack wasn't fond of

homosexuals. He was a conflicted person, and some of that was in rspect to

homosexual relationships, but his friendships with Allen Ginsberg, William

Burroughs, his awareness of the relationship between Neal Cassady and Allen

G., and the (perhaps apocraphal) story of his one night stand with Gore

Vidal  certainly are at odds with the view of someone "not fond" of homosexuals.

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 18:20:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: questionable backgrounds of some authors

In-Reply-To:  <199711012310.RAA15721@mail.execpc.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Really? He's an anti-semite? I didnt know that....

 

On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:

 

> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> 

> > This brings up an interesting question. Should we discount what might be

> > fine works of art because of a dubious connection to something

> > undesirable? I, myself, am a Jew and have every reason in the world to

> > regard all things  Hitler but I cant totally discount him. I am the first

> > person to acknowledge that Hitler was literally a genius. He was a smart,

> > manipulative man but he used his intelligence for evil, so for that

> reason

> > I do not necessarily respect his genius even though I acknowledge that he

> > was one, you know what I mean? Take Cat Stevens for example. He is a

> > fundamentalist Muslim or something, a supporter of Farrakhan but I like

> > his music. Kerouac wasn't fond of homosexuals but I still like his work.

> > Any response?

> 

> My initial reaction is to remember that one is always on shaky ground when

> one mistakes the art for the artist (and vice versa).  People are extremely

> complicated, and can go through an incredible number of changes in a

> lifetime (the former Mr. Stevens...now known as Yusuf Islam... being an

> excellent modern-day example).

> 

> I seem to recall that Kerouac and/or Ginsberg were crushed to discover

> through their research that Ezra Pound was an anti-Semite.

> 

> Jym

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:17:29 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: tim leary

Comments: To: Marie Countryman <country@sover.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> title? ghost-or tim-written? or tim written as ghost?

> mc

> 

> Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> 

> > Has anybody yet read the latest timothy leary book, the one that deals

> > with his death???

> >

> > i haven't got up the guts to get it yet.

> >

> > cathy

 

 

well, as understand it, he wrote it 'as' he was dying.  from what

interviews i read and/or saw of him after he found out he was dying

(cancer i think) he saw death as 'the next big trip', like it was a new

place for his mind to explore, or something of the sort.  he wasn't

afraid of dying, rather  he looked forward to it.  and i think that is

what this book is, all of his own thoughts on dying.

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 18:31:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: questionable backgrounds of some authors

In-Reply-To:  <199711012310.RAA15721@mail.execpc.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Okay, before we all get into a frenzy let me rephrase my comment RE

Kerouac and Homosexuals..what I meant was that Kerouac wasnt comfortable

with Ginsberg being gay. This is what I heard and in fact, i believe i

heard it on this very lsit!

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:38:15 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: city lights submissions

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Nice to see you back, Nancy. Missed your spirited posts. Hope to see

more of you on the list. How about posting some poetry for us?

 

leon

 

>Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:49:55 -0500

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

>Subject:      Re: city lights submissions

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>I would love to submit to City Lights! Does anyone know the address? I

>can't afford the Poetry Market book...:(

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:05:54 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: questionable backgrounds of some authors

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> 

> Really? He's an anti-semite? I didnt know that....

 

Here are a couple of passages from "Allen Verbatim" where Ginsberg

answers a couple questions about his thoughts on Pound's anti-semitic

leanings:

 

"Q: Well, how about--some Jewish people have reacted very strongly to

some of the negative things he said about the Jewish people.

 

AG:  Pound told me he felt that the Cantos were 'stupidity and ignorance

all the way through,' and were a failure and a 'mess,' and that his

'greatest stupidity was stupid suburban anti-Semitic prejudice,' he

thought--as of 1967, when I talked to him.  So I told him that I thought

since the Cantos were for the first time a single person registering over

the course of a lifetime all of his major obsessioins and thoughts and

the entire rainbow arc of his images and clingings and attachments and

discoveries and perceptions, that they were an accurate representation of

his mind and so couldn't be thought of in terms of success or failure,

but only in the terms of the actuality of their representation, and that

since for the first time a human being had taken the whole spiritual

world of thought through fifty years and followed the thoughts out to

the end--so that he built a model of his consciousness over a fifty-year

time span--that they were a great human achievement.  Mistakes and all,

naturally."

 

"Q: Do you personally ignore Pound's involvement with fascism, or do you

just accept it?

 

AG: No, I see it as part of character and humour, h-u-m-o-u-r, which is

changeable.  I think he was, as he pleaded, mentally ill for a while--If

you listen to his records, the phonograph records made in St.

Elizabeth's, there's a splenetic, irritable voice.  Whereas if you listen

to the records made by 1958--in Milan, a very rare copy of 'With

Usura'--and later records at Spoleto in '66, you hear the voice of

Prospero himself, whose every third thought is in his grave: the fine old

man with beautiful manners with the whispering paper-thin voice

pronouncing syllable by syllable with great intensity and meaning each

though of the earlier younger man.  So he'd come to a resolution of his

woes, a rue; like Prospero, he drowned his books and plunged 'deeper than

did ever plummet sound' his magic wand of Pride, and took unto his

council silence, broken only by good-humored advisement on rare sensible

occasion as when he told me, 'Stupidity and ignorance all the way

through."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:21:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction/long essay in return

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

 

> This brings up an interesting question. Should we discount what might be

> fine works of art because of a dubious connection to something

> undesirable? I, myself, am a Jew and hahve every reason in the world to

> regard all things  Hitler but I cant totally discount him. I am the first

> person to acknowledge that Hitler was literally a genius. He was a smart,

> manipulative man but he used his intelligence for evil, so for that reason

> I do not necessarily respect his genius even though I acknowlegde that he

> was one, you know what I mean?

 

<snip>Nancy:

 

The evil that abided in Hitler went beyond Jews.  He attempted to exterminate

Jews, Poles, Gypsies, homosexuals, and others.  The larger evil is the ordinary

people who allowed themselves to be maniupulated.  The truth is that with tv and

the "information" society, it is more likely to happen again now.  Think about

urban myths, AOL killer cookie, a few years ago, the Proctor and Gamble sign was

a Satanic symbol, and so many more that we have seen arise.  The people must

gurard against manipulation, but in a time when the exit polls predict winners

 of

the presidential race before polls close in CA, how do we debate openly issues

 of

great importance.

 

Being politically correct and the lack of critical thinking places this society

into a larger risk than ever.  Look at various movements in our political life.

When I was young, I remember white middle class voters critizing the black

community as they went to church and were told how to vote.  And to think, they

had vans to take people to the polls.  Now, the white conservatives go to the

church and are told how to vote by Pat Robertson and the "christian coalition."

And my lord, they have transportation available.  The entire process is exit

polls and brain washing on many different fronts.  And oh yeah, those white

folks, same ones, only now they are Republicans.

 

Racisim and sexism remain a large problem in our society.  Things have changed.

But it is still taught and evil often seems "genius" not because it is "genius",

but because it is willing to do, say and think things, that you would consider

insane.  And then act on them and pressure others.

 

Look at Mississippi where they are rounding up all these kids and charging them

with "conspiracy" for playing dungeons and dragons.  Does Salem witch hunts ring

a bell.  This is part of the lesson that Burroughs tried to teach us.  We are

 not

so civilized.  We are only a firing of a synapses from the utter primitive and

evil.

 

We must be vigilant.  But do not assign genius to evil.

 

It is interesting to read some folk lore.  If it is true, in WWI, Hitler was

awaken by a dream he was suffocating.  Moments later a shell hit the bunker.  He

would have died if he had not run out of the bunker into apparent danger.  There

may not be a god as we would like to conceive of a GOD, but there is some

intelligence that is collective and hopefully moving toward the light and love.

We all must be mindful of achieving and loving more each day if we want to leave

our children a chance.

 

I guess I shouldn't watch the X-Files eh?

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:32:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction/long essay in return

In-Reply-To:  <345BD5B4.A11BE15E@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I was only saying that Hitler was intelligent man but he used his

intelligence for all the wrong reasons. It takes a genuis to do what

Hitler, to manipulate that many people, and get away with abusing his

power for so long. This is not a reflection, mind you,on the intellignce

of the people that fell under his spell. Rather, Hitler was just very good

at what he did. Look at Mein Kampf. He wrote the long manifesto duringa

short jail stay. Incredible. I loathe Hitler for what he did but I stand

in awe of the genuis he had and in awe of the possiblities of that genius,

had he not been so hate-filled.

Love always, Nancy

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 19:30:33 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Another movie question

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Has anyone seen or know anything about Barbet Schroeder's 1985 film _The

Charles Bukowski Tapes_? I can't find any online info on it...apparently

it's 235 minutes long.

 

Anyone?

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 21:16:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Jack "not fond" of homosexuals

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:

>     I wonder what gave you the impression that Jack wasn't fond of

>homosexuals. He was a conflicted person, and some of that was in rspect

>to

>homosexual relationships, but his friendships with Allen Ginsberg,

>William

>Burroughs, his awareness of the relationship between Neal Cassady and

>Allen

>G., and the (perhaps apocraphal) story of his one night stand with Gore

>Vidal  certainly are at odds with the view of someone "not fond" of

>homosexuals.

 

     It was probably that in Jack's mind was imbedded very rural,

traditional, franco-american, 50's ideas about homosexuality, and

realizing that he was at least moderately bisexual conflicted with the

notions placed in his psyche during the key developmental stages of his

youth...

 

 

       Sigmund (hehe sniff sniff)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:25:35 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Excuse this interuption

 

I am having trouble with my e-mail account, messages seem to be bouncing away

from me. I hope to have it fixed shorty, please do not disconnect me! Thanks,

 

Dave Breithaupt

Breithau@kenyon.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Nov 1997 23:06:08 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: humble introduction

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> And --- regarding D. Carter's post re: backchannel versus responses to the

> group --- your responses are another example of why keeping this manner of

> reply is better then reverting to auto replies that only go to the singular

> sender.  I lurk on the list -- occasionally piping in --- but I learn and

> enjoy the many posts.  Backchannel them, and I would lose a lot.  I don't

> think that I am alone.

> 

> Thanks again.

> 

> Dawn

 

 

 

I would definitely have to agree with dawn on this.  sometimes i just

like to sit back and watch ya'll go.....and if you backchannelled most

responses this list would not be any fun anymore....

 

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:11:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Hamsun

In-Reply-To:  <v0300780bb080ee3f408a@[156.46.45.146]>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>R,

> 

>It always comes as a surprise to me when I meet a writer and (s)he hasn't

>read Hamsun's HUNGER. About as painful an inspiration--example of

>dedication--that I know of.

 

  I agree. It has been said that all modernist fiction owes a huge debt to

Hamsun and "Hunger". It is a truly magnificent book, and I recommend it to

everyone. Hamsun is also Henry Miller's favourite author. He especially

liked "Mysteries" which, alas, seems to be the most difficult one to find ...

 

Glenn C.

______________________________________________

"Work while the day lasts, for the night of

 death cometh when no man can work."

______________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:11:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971101174954.17599C-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 17:54 01/11/97 -0500, you wrote:

>This brings up an interesting question. Should we discount what might be

>fine works of art because of a dubious connection to something

>undesirable? I, myself, am a Jew and hahve every reason in the world to

>regard all things  Hitler but I cant totally discount him. I am the first

>person to acknowledge that Hitler was literally a genius. He was a smart,

>manipulative man but he used his intelligence for evil, so for that reason

>I do not necessarily respect his genius even though I acknowlegde that he

>was one, you know what I mean? Take Cat Stevens for example. He is a

>fundamentalist Muslim or something, a supporter of Farrakhan but I like

>his music. Kerouac wasn't fond of homosexuals but I still like his work.

>Any response?

 

I think a work of art should be separated from he/she who produced it. As

Rimbaud says, "If a piece of wood wakes up one morning to find that it's a

violin, is it its fault?" I is truly another. A person's art is one thing,

his life is another.

 

Bob Dylan recently said, "People expect me to be my songs, but Shakespeare

is not Hamlet, Dante is not Faust." I think you have to draw the line.

 

If a serial killer like Ted Bundy or Geoffrey Dahmer wrote a book, I'd

judge that book on its merits. The life of the author is an immaterial

consideration.

 

Glenn C.

 

________________________________________

"Work while the day lasts, for the night

 of death cometh when no man can work.

_________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:31:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Melissa Lazorwitz <Illnana907@AOL.COM>

Subject:      In reference to Allen Ginsberg

 

I am currently doing a project on Allen Ginsberg for a class at New York

University. I have to find two critiques on Allen Ginsberg's poem, "The

Shrouded Stranger." I have not had any luck. If possible, if anyone has any

material related to "The Shrouded Stranger" or any other detailed Critiques

from articles on his poems I would greatly appreciate it. Please contact me

asap I need any possible information by Sunday, November 3rd. Thank you,

Melissa.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:32:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Humble Introduction

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.16.19971102161751.353f5bca@mail.mpx.com.au>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I agree with Glen on this one. I know that when I write poetry, a lot of

people assume that I am depressed but Im actualyl a pretty happy person.

 

 

On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Glenn Cooper wrote:

 

> At 17:54 01/11/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >This brings up an interesting question. Should we discount what might be

> >fine works of art because of a dubious connection to something

> >undesirable? I, myself, am a Jew and hahve every reason in the world to

> >regard all things  Hitler but I cant totally discount him. I am the first

> >person to acknowledge that Hitler was literally a genius. He was a smart,

> >manipulative man but he used his intelligence for evil, so for that reason

> >I do not necessarily respect his genius even though I acknowlegde that he

> >was one, you know what I mean? Take Cat Stevens for example. He is a

> >fundamentalist Muslim or something, a supporter of Farrakhan but I like

> >his music. Kerouac wasn't fond of homosexuals but I still like his work.

> >Any response?

> 

> I think a work of art should be separated from he/she who produced it. As

> Rimbaud says, "If a piece of wood wakes up one morning to find that it's a

> violin, is it its fault?" I is truly another. A person's art is one thing,

> his life is another.

> 

> Bob Dylan recently said, "People expect me to be my songs, but Shakespeare

> is not Hamlet, Dante is not Faust." I think you have to draw the line.

> 

> If a serial killer like Ted Bundy or Geoffrey Dahmer wrote a book, I'd

> judge that book on its merits. The life of the author is an immaterial

> consideration.

> 

> Glenn C.

> 

> ________________________________________

> "Work while the day lasts, for the night

>  of death cometh when no man can work.

> _________________________________________

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:45:08 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      in my own home town.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

today was the free sale,  it is an annual event, since 1974.  It all

started with a large garage sale to support the great magazine The city

moon,  at 4th and michigan.  after selling stuff for several days they

still had a yard full of stuff and decided to just put a sign up. Free.

every since, a large community of us have gotten together and brought

stuff and taken stuff. No money, but many two for one sales.  You can

not take until 10, bring stuff after 12 and clean up is at 2.  those are

the rules.  oh and everything is free.  there is usually brownies and

surprises. many writers and artists partake, and neighbors.  why do i

think this is beat related.  because i was not aware of the site

http://www.larryville.com/index.htm

it is a dandy, with much information about william.

so have a community free sale,  make sure you line up a reliable clean

up crew. and you too can find out things about the beats. Many people

have tempted us to change this into a fund raiser but we resist, it

nothing down or we won't do it.  First year your greedy, second year you

are ready and you really dump stuff.  We are very organized in an

unorganized way.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:37:07 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Jack "not fond" of homosexuals

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997110118160826@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

i think he had no problem with homosexuals.

 

i don't think he cared for fags.

 

neither ginsberg nor burroughs were fags.  they were homosexual/bisexual.

 

there is a notable difference between homosexuals and fags.

 

(the fag plymouth quote from OTR comes to mind.)

 

my two cents or whatever.

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE

"Someone must have been telling lies about Joseph K., for without having

done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:33:15 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: questionable backgrounds of some authors

In-Reply-To:  <345B6172.214@together.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Diane Carter wrote:

[... snipped ...]

>"Q: Do you personally ignore Pound's involvement with fascism, or do you

>just accept it?

> 

>AG: No, I see it as part of character and humour, h-u-m-o-u-r, which is

>changeable.  I think he was, as he pleaded, mentally ill for a while--If

[... snipped... ]

>DC

> 

cari amici,

 

i'm afraid Ezra Pound had a simpaty for the evil, when he come

back to italy he tried to get in touch with conspirancy neo-fascism

groups. he was disappointed because the italians seem to reject

"ben" experience then the poet became politically silent living

in venice since his death. Allen Ginsberg told us that Ezra Pound

"bet on one wrong horse", i think AG deals with EP kindly. of course

it's a GREAT ENIGMA why a poet so gentle & charming had such a guru

like Benito "Ben" Mussolini.

 

un saluto a tutti,

rinaldo.

*

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:59:16 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: questionable backgrounds of some authors

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Happy Sunday morning for us  afternoon for you Rinaldo,

 

So Ezra

(Interesting name for Pound. Hebrew for "Help" as a noun.)

repudiated hatred of Jews but not fascism? Two different things. Or did he

lie to Allen when he said that  hatred was stupid? Or did Allen' s kindness

make white lies for Ezra?

 

>then the poet became politically silent living

>in venice since his death.

 

Is Venice heaven or is Venice hell? (;--)

 

Ciao amigo.

leon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sunday, November 02, 1997 3:47 AM

Subject: Re: questionable backgrounds of some authors

 

 

>Diane Carter wrote:

>[... snipped ...]

>>"Q: Do you personally ignore Pound's involvement with fascism, or do you

>>just accept it?

>> 

>>AG: No, I see it as part of character and humour, h-u-m-o-u-r, which is

>>changeable.  I think he was, as he pleaded, mentally ill for a while--If

>[... snipped... ]

>>DC

>> 

>cari amici,

> 

>i'm afraid Ezra Pound had a simpaty for the evil, when he come

>back to italy he tried to get in touch with conspirancy neo-fascism

>groups. he was disappointed because the italians seem to reject

>"ben" experience Allen Ginsberg told us that Ezra Pound

>"bet on one wrong horse", i think AG deals with EP kindly. of course

>it's a GREAT ENIGMA why a poet so gentle & charming had such a guru

>like Benito "Ben" Mussolini.

> 

>un saluto a tutti,

>rinaldo.

>*

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:54:55 -0500

Reply-To:     dh383@freenet.carleton.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Laurie Fuhr <dh383@FREENET.CARLETON.CA>

Subject:      Discovered soft words contemplating jazz..

 

        Heya folks, here's my own humble introduction;  my name is Laurie,

and I just plunged into the whole beat thing about a week ago.  I caught

this documentary called "The Beat Generation" on the History channel.. it

included Kerouac reading and answering questions on the Steve Allen show,

and commentary by Diane Diprima, Tim Leary, Allen Ginsburg, William

Burrows, Ferlinghetti, and a whole slew of that kiln.  Had footage of

Ginsburg reading Moloch (I believe it's called?) and it blew me away.

Yes, I'm still pretty much in the dark so I came on the List to get

crammed full of knowledge.

 

        I'm you're average, run of the mill poet out of Ottawa--any other

Ottawans out there?  I've been lurking around the 'scene here for awhile

but I'm just getting into submitting.  I don't really know what I'm doing

yet.  But my friend Armour, he's big on Beat, and he and I were wondering why

the hell they don't have Poetry slams and that around here.  So we might

just try to get something going.

 

        But anyway.. here I am, I hope you're a friendly bunch towards

newcomers because I'm just about as ignorant of Beat as they get.  It

just.. fascinates me.  I guess a major movement like that would fascinate

anyone, once they've heard things about it.  It's been a few years since

the Three Calaberos kicked North America in the behind, sure, but I still

get the sense I've been left out of something.  Repercussions in the

modern-day.  And I don't mean bongos :)

 

        Would anyone recommend reading material for someone just getting

into Beat?  I'd appreciate it.

 

 

        So anyway.. howdee doo, folks!

 

 

                     Laurie.

 

 

 

 

--

* R e c o v e r i n g *     "..she said,

*  -= t   h   e =-    *        'I don't need to be an angel, but I'm

* S a t e l l i t e s *              n o t h i n g

* * counting  crows * *                 if I'm not this high.."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:21:30 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: in my own home town.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

You got something there, Patricia! I mean you are outdoing yourself again

there, maybe it will reach in here too? Sounds like so much community fun!

To add beat relation we could have readings to jazz maybe, Beat-L poetry

possibly even.

Our voices reach the end of the world, but is anyone resonating at home?

Here is to moving from greedy to ready. Anyone up to it here? Yoo Hoo!

 

The Larry of Lawrence page is another happy surprise! The global village

reaching into the heartland of the USA! Good news this weekend.

 

leon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, November 01, 1997 10:51 PM

Subject: in my own home town.

 

 

>today was the free sale,  it is an annual event, since 1974.  It all

>started with a large garage sale to support the great magazine The city

>moon,  at 4th and michigan.  after selling stuff for several days they

>still had a yard full of stuff and decided to just put a sign up. Free.

>every since, a large community of us have gotten together and brought

>stuff and taken stuff. No money, but many two for one sales.  You can

>not take until 10, bring stuff after 12 and clean up is at 2.  those are

>the rules.  oh and everything is free.  there is usually brownies and

>surprises. many writers and artists partake, and neighbors.  why do i

>think this is beat related.  because i was not aware of the site

>http://www.larryville.com/index.htm

>it is a dandy, with much information about william.

>so have a community free sale,  make sure you line up a reliable clean

>up crew. and you too can find out things about the beats. Many people

>have tempted us to change this into a fund raiser but we resist, it

>nothing down or we won't do it.  First year your greedy, second year you

>are ready and you really dump stuff.  We are very organized in an

>unorganized way.

>patricia

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:42:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Discovered soft words contemplating jazz..

Comments: To: Laurie Fuhr <dh383@FREENET.CARLETON.CA>

In-Reply-To:  <199711021554.KAA03400@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Laurie-

Welcome! As a relative newcomer myself, I would recommend starting with

the "popular" beat stuff like HOWL and On The Road. Just move on from

there, reading any and all things beat and beat related. I would also

check out the website put out by Levi Asher but I can't remember the

address. Maybe someone else can? Anyway, regarding Kerouac, make sure you

don't read Big Sur until after you've read OTR, Desolation Angels and

Dharma Bums, only because Big Sur is so, Ive heard, that it turns people

off before they've really had a chance to explore and to get to know Jack.

Also, my favorite Ginsberg volume is his big red book of collected

poems,1947-1980. Good luck and enjoy your adventure!

~Nancy

 

 

 

 

On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Laurie Fuhr wrote:

 

>         Heya folks, here's my own humble introduction;  my name is Laurie,

> and I just plunged into the whole beat thing about a week ago.  I caught

> this documentary called "The Beat Generation" on the History channel.. it

> included Kerouac reading and answering questions on the Steve Allen show,

> and commentary by Diane Diprima, Tim Leary, Allen Ginsburg, William

> Burrows, Ferlinghetti, and a whole slew of that kiln.  Had footage of

> Ginsburg reading Moloch (I believe it's called?) and it blew me away.

> Yes, I'm still pretty much in the dark so I came on the List to get

> crammed full of knowledge.

> 

>         I'm you're average, run of the mill poet out of Ottawa--any other

> Ottawans out there?  I've been lurking around the 'scene here for awhile

> but I'm just getting into submitting.  I don't really know what I'm doing

> yet.  But my friend Armour, he's big on Beat, and he and I were wondering why

> the hell they don't have Poetry slams and that around here.  So we might

> just try to get something going.

> 

>         But anyway.. here I am, I hope you're a friendly bunch towards

> newcomers because I'm just about as ignorant of Beat as they get.  It

> just.. fascinates me.  I guess a major movement like that would fascinate

> anyone, once they've heard things about it.  It's been a few years since

> the Three Calaberos kicked North America in the behind, sure, but I still

> get the sense I've been left out of something.  Repercussions in the

> modern-day.  And I don't mean bongos :)

> 

>         Would anyone recommend reading material for someone just getting

> into Beat?  I'd appreciate it.

> 

> 

>         So anyway.. howdee doo, folks!

> 

> 

>                      Laurie.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> --

> * R e c o v e r i n g *     "..she said,

> *  -= t   h   e =-    *        'I don't need to be an angel, but I'm

> * S a t e l l i t e s *              n o t h i n g

> * * counting  crows * *                 if I'm not this high.."

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:16:18 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      [Fwd: Re: humble introduction]

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: message/rfc822

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Message-ID: <345C4EEE.43C8@pacbell.net>

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 01:59:10 -0800

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: cawilkie@comic.net

Subject: Re: humble introduction

References: <345C0A40.33A8@comic.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Cathy,

 

I agree that for a voyeur the current format is better.

 

Backchannel is good. Think of Beat-L  a party of over 200 people.  Not

every conversation need be for everybody.  The interim format made

people think at least a few second speaking in front of the whole room

rather than to a smaller segment.  Under the current format it is hard

to backchannel folks not already in your address book.  Often

backchannel is the best way to get information that isn't perhaps

important for everybody.  I thought it made the life of the list

better.  D. Carter disagrees.  I thought the post volume was more

managable, but there are folks doing lots of lists (Bentz comes to mind)

who obviously have a higher threshold for e-mail overload than I do.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Cathy Wilkie wrote:

 

.  sometimes i just

> like to sit back and watch ya'll go.....and if you backchannelled most

> responses this list would not be any fun anymore....

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:29:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Discovered soft words contemplating jazz..

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi Laurie,

 

        I'm down here in Montreal (transplanted American) and there are

other Canadians on the list (Adrien Begrandout in Saskatchewan, poetry and

comment; Neil Hennessey at Western(?), all things Burroughs; Derek Bealieu

in Calgary, art, Beat poetry and writing, Mike Cakebread in Toronto ...who's

threatening to leave us!, Michael Hayward out in Vancouver, beat and

alternative presses and the best Van Morrison web site anywhere ...and

others I've forgotten)

 

        I arrived here with sonic and visual rather than literary interests,

but theyve edjimacated me. I was in same position as you a year and a half

ago, so I'll tell what I've got lots out of. First of all the Web; there is

an inbelievable wealth of great and reliable material on all the main

players and cultural themes; start with Levi Asher's site ( a beat list

member) [http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/].

 

        For reading history and background, I strongly recommend "Jack's

Book", a biography of Jack Kerouac told through interviews with his friends.

Alternatively, "Desolate Angel" another Jack biography by Dennis McNally.

 

        For recordings, the Phillip Glass recording "Hydrogen Jukebox" with

libretto and readings by Allen Ginsberg, as well as Ginsberg's own "Ballad

of the Skeletons". "Kerouac - kick joy darkness" a recently released tribute

to Kerouac which includes some of his performance aling with many other

great tribute performances. The Kerouac box set by Rhino is outstanding if

you a live of Jack's voice. Three CDs that really deliver. Also, if you

frequent alternative/used record stores in Ottawa, you might find that one

of them has a great boot called "Beat Jazz: pictures from the gone world",

vinyl on pesky serpent label. The Beat Generation box set on Rhino, as well

as "Howls, Raps and Roars" are also good although Beat Geneartion is a

little uneven with some beatsploitation material, but worth having nonetheless.

 

        For the literature I'll let others kick in, but "On the Road",

"Subterraneans", Dharma Bums"/Kerouac, "Coney Island of the

Mind"/Ferlinghetti, "First Third"/Neal Cassady, "Last of the

Mocassins"/Charles Plymell are sure-fire.

 

                Antoine

 

P.S. the Kerouac memorabilia collector and bibliographer Rod Anstee lives in

Ottawa and is occasionally on the list.

 

P.P.S. poetry slams have begun to take hold here in Montreal so it should

wok in Ottawa; a musical composition about Lord Buckley was presented in

Ottawa at their Chamber Music Festival last year. It was composed by David

Amram, a friend of Kerouac and Ginsberg. Lord Buckley was a hipster as

opposed to a beat!?

 

 

 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:39:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: humble introduction]

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <345CD182.27FB@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

What, pray tell, is backchanneling? Somebody enlighten me pls.

Thanks.

Love always, nancy

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:43:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Discovered soft words contemplating jazz..

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997110214294679@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I also recommend Angel Headed Hispter, it has great pictures, a very

expensive book but well worth the price of the quality of the book and the

info on Jack. Its a coffeetable book but I dont have a coffeetable:), so I

keep it on my bookshelf...its edited by Steve Turner...enjoy

love always, Nancy

 

 

 

On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Antoine Maloney wrote:

 

> Hi Laurie,

> 

>         I'm down here in Montreal (transplanted American) and there are

> other Canadians on the list (Adrien Begrandout in Saskatchewan, poetry and

> comment; Neil Hennessey at Western(?), all things Burroughs; Derek Bealieu

> in Calgary, art, Beat poetry and writing, Mike Cakebread in Toronto ...who's

> threatening to leave us!, Michael Hayward out in Vancouver, beat and

> alternative presses and the best Van Morrison web site anywhere ...and

> others I've forgotten)

> 

>         I arrived here with sonic and visual rather than literary interests,

> but theyve edjimacated me. I was in same position as you a year and a half

> ago, so I'll tell what I've got lots out of. First of all the Web; there is

> an inbelievable wealth of great and reliable material on all the main

> players and cultural themes; start with Levi Asher's site ( a beat list

> member) [http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/].

> 

>         For reading history and background, I strongly recommend "Jack's

> Book", a biography of Jack Kerouac told through interviews with his friends.

> Alternatively, "Desolate Angel" another Jack biography by Dennis McNally.

> 

>         For recordings, the Phillip Glass recording "Hydrogen Jukebox" with

> libretto and readings by Allen Ginsberg, as well as Ginsberg's own "Ballad

> of the Skeletons". "Kerouac - kick joy darkness" a recently released tribute

> to Kerouac which includes some of his performance aling with many other

> great tribute performances. The Kerouac box set by Rhino is outstanding if

> you a live of Jack's voice. Three CDs that really deliver. Also, if you

> frequent alternative/used record stores in Ottawa, you might find that one

> of them has a great boot called "Beat Jazz: pictures from the gone world",

> vinyl on pesky serpent label. The Beat Generation box set on Rhino, as well

> as "Howls, Raps and Roars" are also good although Beat Geneartion is a

> little uneven with some beatsploitation material, but worth having

 nonetheless.

> 

>         For the literature I'll let others kick in, but "On the Road",

> "Subterraneans", Dharma Bums"/Kerouac, "Coney Island of the

> Mind"/Ferlinghetti, "First Third"/Neal Cassady, "Last of the

> Mocassins"/Charles Plymell are sure-fire.

> 

>                 Antoine

> 

> P.S. the Kerouac memorabilia collector and bibliographer Rod Anstee lives in

> Ottawa and is occasionally on the list.

> 

> P.P.S. poetry slams have begun to take hold here in Montreal so it should

> wok in Ottawa; a musical composition about Lord Buckley was presented in

> Ottawa at their Chamber Music Festival last year. It was composed by David

> Amram, a friend of Kerouac and Ginsberg. Lord Buckley was a hipster as

> opposed to a beat!?

> 

> 

> 

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:08:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mitchell Smith <Praetor77@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Burroughs and methadone

 

Does anyone know the state of Burroughs' addiction at the time of his death.

I remember at the end of Literary Outlaw, Burroughs had started methadone

treatment. Is this correct? And how did that last? Earlier of course,

Burroughs had used the apomorphine treatment. Does Burroughs' later addiction

discount its effectiveness? Is apomorphine still used here or in England?

 

adios

mjs

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:54:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: questionable backgrounds of some authors

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

You don't need to do any research to learn of Ez

Pound's anti-semitism.  He made anti-semitic broadcasts

for Mussolini's government from Italy during the war, and

spent some time in American nuthouses to compensate.  The

intervention of Ernest Hemingway and e e cummings helped

keep old Ez from being branded a traitor.  But I've read

some of Ez' ravings, and they are wonderful, filled with

imagery of craven jews.  Its all crap but Ez believed it

intensely.  The Beats were young men in the 40s, they

certainly could read about Ez in the newspapers.

 

Mike Rice

 

At 05:11 PM 11/1/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> 

>> This brings up an interesting question. Should we discount what might be

>> fine works of art because of a dubious connection to something

>> undesirable? I, myself, am a Jew and have every reason in the world to

>> regard all things  Hitler but I cant totally discount him. I am the first

>> person to acknowledge that Hitler was literally a genius. He was a smart,

>> manipulative man but he used his intelligence for evil, so for that

>reason

>> I do not necessarily respect his genius even though I acknowledge that he

>> was one, you know what I mean? Take Cat Stevens for example. He is a

>> fundamentalist Muslim or something, a supporter of Farrakhan but I like

>> his music. Kerouac wasn't fond of homosexuals but I still like his work.

>> Any response?

> 

>My initial reaction is to remember that one is always on shaky ground when

>one mistakes the art for the artist (and vice versa).  People are extremely

>complicated, and can go through an incredible number of changes in a

>lifetime (the former Mr. Stevens...now known as Yusuf Islam... being an

>excellent modern-day example).

> 

>I seem to recall that Kerouac and/or Ginsberg were crushed to discover

>through their research that Ezra Pound was an anti-Semite.

> 

>Jym

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:37:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      [Fwd: Geese]

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------164462545FB58CFD1A65CCC5"

 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------164462545FB58CFD1A65CCC5

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi all:

 

When I wrote Geese and posted it, I copied Charles Plymell.  He in turn

sent to me this poem about a rabbit.  When the rabbit managed to run

between my front tires and clear the rear before they came along, I

thought of this poem.  That is why the most recent posting was dedicated

to Charles.  The undetermined point of view.  He gave me permission to

post this to complete the connection.  First Geese, then this, then my

rabbit poem.

 

Now, Charles also found something and would like to see if someone who

speaks this language, must be German or some similiar language to my

uneducated eye, can translate the last paragraph for him.  I am assuming

he means the one with Huncke in it.

 

http://www.fto.de/fthp/gassner/jk_mesdd2.html

 

I wrote and he replied in full:

 

Yes, your poem was my inspiration.

 

Also would you mind posting this site:

(http://www.fto.de/fthp/gassner/jk_mesdd2.html)

Pam found on the web to the list to see if someone could translate the

last

paragraph for me.

CP

 

If you can translate this and don't have Charles' address, please post

it to the list and there are several persons who will forward it to him.

And it is about Huncke, so it must be beat.  The paragraph also contains

the mention of Ozzy Osborne and other things that make it a unique

paragraph, that's for sure.  Uuuhhh, Charles, I do have the right link,

right?

:-)

 

I hope you enjoy the poem.  I found it to contain a lot in a little and

really like it.  It is black humor I guess, but a nice tidy piece of

work.

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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          Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:14:39 -0400 (EDT)

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:14:39 -0400 (EDT)

From: CVEditions@aol.com

Message-ID: <971019161211_1368518968@emout19.mail.aol.com>

To: bocelts@scsn.net

Subject: Re: Geese

 

I saw a rabbit road killed today

darting into time and space

the guts left of a view undetermined

cp

 

 

--------------164462545FB58CFD1A65CCC5--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:13:01 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: lately i just marlene

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:53:12 EST

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>

>Subject:      Re: lately i just marlene

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>marie,

>here's my address:

> 

>Marlene Giraud

>935 Lemongrass Lane

>Wellington, Fla. 33414

> 

>where do i send five bucks? ooh i can't wait to haer them...geez, i

sound like

>a five year old...thanks again....

> 

>~~marlene

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:30:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs and methadone

In-Reply-To:  <971102145448_-1728213696@emout02.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 16:08 02/11/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Does anyone know the state of Burroughs' addiction at the time of his death.

>I remember at the end of Literary Outlaw, Burroughs had started methadone

>treatment. Is this correct? And how did that last? Earlier of course,

>Burroughs had used the apomorphine treatment. Does Burroughs' later addiction

>discount its effectiveness? Is apomorphine still used here or in England?

> 

>adios

>mjs

> 

 

According to an obit written by Richard Hell, Burroughs was on the

methadone program until the day he died. Surprised the hell out of me.

 

The Hell article can be found at:

 

http://vs1.ws4.u-net.net/www.geek.co.uk/burroughs/hell.html

 

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:39:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Van the man and Unspeakable Visions for Bentz

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi Bentz, (Bentz backchanneled me on this, but everyone should go visit....)

 

        The url is below and you should also check out his material (his

thesis actually) on small presses, Unspeakable Visions at.......

 

http://www.harbour.sfu.ca/~hayward/UnspeakableVisions/page1.html

 

 

For Van the man it's......

http://www.harbour.sfu.ca/~hayward/van/van.html

 

 

Michael Hayward has set up and maintains these pages. Hi Michael!

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:53:12 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      More of the Dharma

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi everyone,

 

I just finished the first thirty pages of Some Of The Dharma, and

thought I'd share some interesting passages...I remember some people had

posted pieces from the book already, and if I'm repeating what you've

already posted please forgive my ignorance.

 

First of, there's a wonderful little snippet of a conversation between

Kerouac and Jamie & Cathy Cassady, revealing the origin of the 'God is

Pooh Bear' line from the final lines of On The Road:

 

"'Why is the mountain sitting there?' (man asks children)

Jamie: 'Because nobody's on there and we're not supposed to climb on

        it because the dirt'll fall off.'

'Who made the mountain?' (man)

They: 'God made it.'

Man: 'Who is God?'

Jamie: 'Us.' And right then Cathy sayd: He wants to play with the

fence.'

Man: 'Who?'

Cathy (showing bear toy): 'Me. Don't you know that I am Poo Bear?

 

God is Poo Bear"

 

 

"Eyeball leaps to see

Ego leaps to vain

Worry leaps to gnaw

Tongue to tattle, taste

Brain to frame

Imagination draw---

Foot leaps to walk

Finger to feel, grab, claw,

Cock to throb, think,

Mind to think up thoughts,

Choice to choose up choices,

But Right Mindfulness

Leaps to avoid:

  This is the true Morphine."

 

Finally, this funny little bit...with Jack fusing Buddhism and American

Express:

 

         "078-833-368

          078-833-367

          078-833-369

    Thus is the perfection of ancient Karma and of karma to come, but

that

it rots in pieces, and therefore who will abide by it in the mind?

    Brain struggleth, body ageth, Eternal Mind rest.

   Seventy eight (78) is the number of years that will enable me to

reach

the year 2000 A.D.  0-78 is the birth and death before it, and hint of

zeros after it, and 0. 833 IS THE PRESENT MYSTERY. 367 to 369 is the

rise

in vibratory perfection to a hum and come, and divides in Threes the

Saha

Triple World of Suffering for dissolution in Mind.

    (Numbers are from Travelers Cheques)"

 

So far the text of the book is what I'd expected...a lot of repetition,

not his best work, but with many little typical Kerouac nuggets

scattered throughout. All those little literary Samadhis make it all

worthwhile.

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 03:29:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: More of the Dharma

In-Reply-To:  <345DAD18.1B12@sk.sympatico.ca>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Adrien Begrand wrote:

 

> I just finished the first thirty pages of Some Of The Dharma, and

[...]

> First of, there's a wonderful little snippet of a conversation between

> Kerouac and Jamie & Cathy Cassady, revealing the origin of the 'God is

> Pooh Bear' line from the final lines of On The Road:

> [...]

> Man: 'Who?'

> Cathy (showing bear toy): 'Me. Don't you know that I am Poo Bear?

> 

> God is Poo Bear"

 

glad to see that cleared up....I knew that line in OTR couldn't have

anything to do with the constellation Ursa Major....

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:33:24 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      GOODBYE AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

captain hoek here

trying to unsub

hope it goes through smoothly

no

im not mad at anybody.

time to go.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:49:48 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: More of the Dharma

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PMDF.3.95.971103032548.568440020C-100000@ctrvax.Vande

              rbilt.Edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 03.29 03/11/97 -0600, Jeff Taylor wrote:

>On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Adrien Begrand wrote:

> 

>> I just finished the first thirty pages of Some Of The Dharma, and

>[...]

>> First of, there's a wonderful little snippet of a conversation between

>> Kerouac and Jamie & Cathy Cassady, revealing the origin of the 'God is

>> Pooh Bear' line from the final lines of On The Road:

>> [...]

>> Man: 'Who?'

>> Cathy (showing bear toy): 'Me. Don't you know that I am Poo Bear?

>> 

>> God is Poo Bear"

> 

>glad to see that cleared up....I knew that line in OTR couldn't have

>anything to do with the constellation Ursa Major....

> 

>*******

>Jeff Taylor

>taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

>*******

> 

cari amici,

 

at the end of "On the Road" we are in the heaven

"... and stars'll be out, and don't you know

        that God is Pooh Bear? the evening star..."

 

in the video (i've on CD, ed sullivan's show?)

where Jack Kerouac read

such sentence he turn his eyes to the sky,

 

maybe the above dharma dialogue (fine and good) was converted

to another metaphor in the OTR.

out of this planet the stars... "the father we never found".

i think that the lost father,

(god) is a hidden plot in the jack's novel.

 

un saluto a tutti da

rinaldo

*       the beet        *

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:33:10 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      (FWD) Frank Winters

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PMDF.3.95.971103032548.568440020C-100000@ctrvax.Vande

              rbilt.Edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>From: "Eric Sharp" <stpltd@netway.net>

>To: <rasa@gpnet.it>

>Subject: Frank Winters

>Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:07:25 -0700

> 

>    Frank Winters is a Denver poet in his early 50s  who has been

>translated into Serbian. He has traveled extensily in Europe,  India, Tibet

>and North American. He once featured Corso and Ginsberg as his  tatoo

>parlor/poetry venue in Commerce City, Colorado, and performed when he

>lived in London, where he has introduced several American writers to

>bookstores  and a now defunct newsletter Strangefish. He is published with

>Howling Dog Press  and sharptongue (Denver).    Eric Hjerstedt Sharp &

>publisher sharptongue

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:22:10 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs and methadone

 

Yes, Burroughs was still on methadone at the time of his death. He had special

status and was allowed two weeks worth of "take homes" which means he did not

have to go to the clinic every day for his dose. His dose by the way, was

pretty small, he was just on maintenance level.

 

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:59:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page Updated!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The Kerouac Quarterly page has been updated today! News on Florida Kerouac

scholar, Bob Kealing and his attempt to preserve Jack Kerouac's and Memere's

Orlando cottage.

  Also, an organized reading of Some of the Dharma at St. Mark's in New York.

  Go to:

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

              Thanks! Paul.....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:43:27 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: GOODBYE AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Since you have not said anything to me personally about this shocking sudden

announcement, I thought I'sd wait to hear from you. I hope you are o.k. and

will let me know something.

 

Love

leon

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 8:34 AM

Subject: GOODBYE AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH

 

 

>captain hoek here

>trying to unsub

>hope it goes through smoothly

>no

>im not mad at anybody.

>time to go.

>mc

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:19:02 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Ring of bone/spontaneous orgasm

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Gary Glazner--

 

Somehow don't have your address of I'd send it direct.  Found the source

of the story of Lew's having a spontaneous orgasm after writing the

"ring of bone" poem in Lew's interview with David Meltzer in 1969

from--"Golden Gate: Interviews with Five Poets"  which I had forgotten I

owned and stumbled across the other day.  What a great collection of

interviews!

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:07:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      pome

Comments: cc: GTL1951@aol.com

 

    POETICIDE-- a writer's hallucination

 

     i sat in my room     with jack kerouac last night

              and i crumbled

   hugged my knees

   and listened to the voice of my

               mad

       cracked

              calloused

     hands -- the invention

     the spontaneous writer

     the ONLY writer...

      tossed my hair in a bun

    wrapped myself in cotton linens

    ate crackers and cheese    and laughed out loud

          i want to hear

         tappity taps and clickety clicks

      typewriters warming under my frenzied fingers

        but its the low glow of a computer

        and the silence of my suburbia

        marshmallow nights in front of the t.v.

        insomnia and piles of books--

     the reformation of a poet

                   i'm growing inside these tight blue jeans.

      writing my name in the sand

        or the blue knit carpet of my room

     my split-level home

     my split-level mind

            my aching jazz-soul

             my drippy slippy lilting voice that moves

        with my moods

             and slides through poetry like melted moons

      I want to get drunk!

      I want to get high!

         suck nicotine and kiss someone i hardly know

      smell the fog

           inhale the driveway concrete

           the neighbor's dog

          caricatured moonlight       spiderlight dances

     Oh! my piece of life

           piece of stained glass freedom

           piece of ass       and frozen highway

     Oh blue rain and sunday mornings

               memories of church choir and pancake breakfeast

i wish i didn't know where i'll be when i wake up.

     Oh jack,

               i need to feel hot wine sliding down my throat

                  take tea trips with eyes closed.

                i would've liked to seen your face

                        your drunksad eyes

                 maybe touch your shoulder

                              hear the world go "pop!"

    but, i'm still dreaming

           i'm still flowing

           i'm still creating

                           and maybe its not hitch hike america

      or booze freedom

                           maybe its not stolen cars

      or san francisco

          but its my journal i cling to

                 my innocence i run away from

   i love in soft waves

   i sing out loud in the car

   i scratch the sky

   i mold

   i grasp

   i hold

                i'm soaking in sadness

                      rolling in madness

            tracing my fingers along the edges

            guiding my hips

      the cd's on

                            repeat

                            repeat

                            repeat

       i feel like a woman

                               and i'm still naked.

 

  ~~marlene

         nov. 2nd at 1:00 am

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:55:42 -0500

Reply-To:     Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@is8.nyu.edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Poem

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Here is a poem for you guys....enjoy!

 

 

Crying Myself to Sleep--April 5-20, 1997

Allen, how I never knew

and how I always wanted to kiss yourh and

stroke your beard

have your  baby

share a joint or two, even

but you went too soon

or maybe I was just born too late

a man of your genius is rarely created

and there shall be no  more

after you

Allen, the sone of the tragic Naomi, you have

gone

one more best mind destroyed by a madness of

a different kind

And I hope you dance

with Jack, up there in heaven

two friends reunited again

And I hope you look down and

taste my tears, my tears that fall for you

salty and bittersweet

and I found out in the most unnatural way, I

turned on the computer and Reauters hourly

news said POET IS DEAD

but you are not really and truly dead are you?

tell me you aren't,tell me

you're still here, jumping off the pages of my

red bible and right now, I wish I had a fire

escape, so I could sit on it, writing

poetry about the dearly departed but alas this is

not Brooklyn and its not 1954 and I'm

awakened from my fantasy reverie

and you are my own sit down vision

and I've been counting the Saturdays since you

died, isn't that awful?

I've collected every scrap of words about you

that I could

and its not so much that you died Allen

because you had to go sometime right?, but the

fact that you died before I met you, the fact

that I had so many chances to meet you but

slipped through my fingers like

my baby sister's hair

and I'm wracked with tears and my heart

weighs a ton since you're gone, baby

my "secret agent loverman"

as someone once said whose name escapes me

now but

I'm sure I'll wake up in the middle of the night

and remember her name

but by then it'll be too late because I'll have gone

on,

with my poem here and

this is where I say,

Good night, Allen, see you in my nighttime

dream.

 

 

Love Always, Nancy

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven

For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:19:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      frans dream

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

a friend of mine and a friend of Williams, had a dream about william

about a week after the bardo. to me evoked memories of william, of how

he would move and act at a gathering.. i also find dreams that pathway

to magic so i send it here, he was a sweetie.

p

Frans' Dream

 

September 97

 

I was at a gathering to see a Buddhist master and friend, wm. Burroughs

for sensan. The gathering was at a home in the country.  With few

exceptions it was the same Kansas farm where the week before I had

attended wm.  burroughs bardo.

Many of the same people attended the sensan as had attended the bardo,

many close friends, others unknown to me.  seating was arranged in a

rough semicircle; wm was seated louts at its opening in his suit jacket

and trousers that fit him to loosely near the end of his life. He sat

and the crowd mingled and visited.

Occasionally, he would catch someone's eye with his characteristic

subtlety call a person to him

a slight beckoning of hand, and sideways s pull of his chin would cause

the person to go and join him.  There each would sat with him and

william would speak quietly to them - sometimes hand them something

sometimes reach out to touch an arm or chest.

It was a beautiful evening - the first cool refreshment after very hot

weather.  The people gathered were warm and comfortable with one

another.  I was thoroughly enjoying myself and I reflected(as I had at

the bardo) that wm had created a magical vibrant peace around the event.

I was about to comment as much to a friend when I glanced up to see wm

beckon me.  I went

and sat on the ground before wm. He said" i have something for you:

leaned left and pulled from his pocket a $50. Dollar bill, so crumbled

that it took some time for him to straighten it. Wm did this  with

patience and great care.  It was so soft and worn that it felt like fur

as he placed it on my palm.  "Wait, I have more" removed two dollar

bills which he straightened and placed on top of the first bill.  Laying

his hand on mine and gently grasping on it for just a moment.

I woke with the warmth of his hand on mine.

.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:51:45 -0800

Reply-To:     jjm@Tidalwave.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Mader <jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>

Organization: Lockheed Martin

Subject:      1st post please read i need feed back thank u!!!!!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i would like to start off by saying this is my first post, i am

intrigued by your comments and keen observations. altought i think

instead of observations and enlighten about the the past we as a whole

shoud start a new "beat" (if u will), start going out and making noise,

start to unravale the thoughts that are so twisted up in are minds that

are screaming to get out.  instead of reveling in the 40's and 50's and

so on that we explore new territory and give the 90's a new name make

the beat happen now,play a cruel joke upon the 90's cosmic family, the

caravan driving , take the kids to baseball practice generation. we all

have something in common here we all have intrest in the past and we

love it, we want to live in it. but reality has denied us this request.

so we must make anew. take out thoughts of the past and interpreat them

into the 90's skeem of things and start a new joyous worship in the game

that we know is life our life we have been granted this lets go mad in

it and start an new generation of mad cat digging the beat.  i can see

it now young kids  going out in there parents sedan, making there way to

the local book store and pondering thoughts in a book written by "us"

buying this book and reaviling in its complexity yet its simplisity.

they start to use there mind and soon start another beat movement

appears and it is to never die, please lets let "IT" never die, let us

all have hope that no one is to foget out heros kerouac, ginsberg,

cassidy (thank you jack) the mad man in the JUNK yard bill burroughs

(take it form him) let us  spin wildly out of control and upon our

finger tip[s  let us spin a novel that shall,

 

 

                "DEFINE A GENERATION"

 

 

the end,

in need feed back to what i have gone to extreme to jote down upon the

page, please do not take away any credability acount of the spelling,

keep in mind i am young and still learing the ropes.  keep it rolling

ladies and gents its out life let live it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:18:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: frans dream

In-Reply-To:  <345EA250.4E1C@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Cool dream but I have one question..what's a bardo?

love always, nancy

 

 

 

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> a friend of mine and a friend of Williams, had a dream about william

> about a week after the bardo. to me evoked memories of william, of how

> he would move and act at a gathering.. i also find dreams that pathway

> to magic so i send it here, he was a sweetie.

> p

> Frans' Dream

> 

> September 97

> 

> I was at a gathering to see a Buddhist master and friend, wm. Burroughs

> for sensan. The gathering was at a home in the country.  With few

> exceptions it was the same Kansas farm where the week before I had

> attended wm.  burroughs bardo.

> Many of the same people attended the sensan as had attended the bardo,

> many close friends, others unknown to me.  seating was arranged in a

> rough semicircle; wm was seated louts at its opening in his suit jacket

> and trousers that fit him to loosely near the end of his life. He sat

> and the crowd mingled and visited.

> Occasionally, he would catch someone's eye with his characteristic

> subtlety call a person to him

> a slight beckoning of hand, and sideways s pull of his chin would cause

> the person to go and join him.  There each would sat with him and

> william would speak quietly to them - sometimes hand them something

> sometimes reach out to touch an arm or chest.

> It was a beautiful evening - the first cool refreshment after very hot

> weather.  The people gathered were warm and comfortable with one

> another.  I was thoroughly enjoying myself and I reflected(as I had at

> the bardo) that wm had created a magical vibrant peace around the event.

> I was about to comment as much to a friend when I glanced up to see wm

> beckon me.  I went

> and sat on the ground before wm. He said" i have something for you:

> leaned left and pulled from his pocket a $50. Dollar bill, so crumbled

> that it took some time for him to straighten it. Wm did this  with

> patience and great care.  It was so soft and worn that it felt like fur

> as he placed it on my palm.  "Wait, I have more" removed two dollar

> bills which he straightened and placed on top of the first bill.  Laying

> his hand on mine and gently grasping on it for just a moment.

> I woke with the warmth of his hand on mine.

> .

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:29:15 -0800

Reply-To:     jjm@Tidalwave.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Mader <jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>

Organization: Lockheed Martin

Subject:      let us all dig!!!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

going mad in a narcadic state proffesing to my girl my undying love,

long live dylan dig he people!!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:47:39 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: 1st post please read i need feed back thank u!!!!!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jerry Mader wrote:

> 

> i would like to start off by saying this is my first post, i am

> intrigued by your comments and keen observations. altought i think

> instead of observations and enlighten about the the past we as a whole

> shoud start a new "beat"

 

dear jerry, i would prefer to continue a few observations and writings

about those old guys who wrote back in the forties and fifties, i

sometimes get some ideas from them and gain some understanding that

helps me write myself.  I like the idea of new novels.  I have a

personal interest of writing past the one of explaining or expressing a

generation.  I feel that that is a good thing to write and should be

written but i am getting old and with that i feel less identified with

any particular generation, my friends and influences are

multigenerational and now multnational.  I think it is time for a novel

about how mean we as a people are and how in hell can we find love and

kindness and why we should. i am also interested in exercise, exercise

of the imagination, the mind, the heart and the soul.  the world is

flabby. i quess that is my main observation on life.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:24:39 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: 1st post please read i need feed back thank u!!!!!

Comments: To: jjm@Tidalwave.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jerry Mader wrote:

> 

> instead of reveling in the 40's and 50's and

> so on that we explore new territory and give the 90's a new name make

> the beat happen now...we all have intrest in the past and we

> love it, we want to live in it.

 

Totally untrue. Good writing is timeless. The great thing about the

beats is that it sounds fresh even today. Reading Kerouac's _Some Of The

Dharma_ I've noticed how far ahead of his time Jack was...it's still

heady stuff today.

 

> play a cruel joke upon the 90's cosmic family, the

> caravan driving , take the kids to baseball practice generation. we all

> have something in common here  but reality has denied us this request.

 

What's that supposed to mean? What's wrong with driving a Caravan and

taking yr kids to baseball practice? That comment didn't make any sense

whatsoever.

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:46:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      what would Kerouac think....

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hey folks,

        based on what we know about Jack and the rest of the lads, what

do you think their comments would be on the 90s, especially "gen x." ?

Are we producing huge amounts of inspiring literature and social

movements? Or are we just wasting time designing webpages and charging

our cell phones? (i have neither. apologies for being too generalizing).

Why is it that we look to the past for inspiration? Could it be that many

of us were born too late?

                                        jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:49:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971104014413.14724A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I don't think there's anything particularly amazing about this generation.

There's a good book called Generations that talks about the cyclical

nature of generations and relates the so-labled Generation X (even though

those originally labled as such are now hitting their late-20s and 30s)

to Hemingway's and Fitzgerald's Lost Generation.  American culture is also

stinkingly nostalgic.  I don't think this is particularly characteristic

of this generation but a product of the post-modern globalization (the

millenium doesn't help) of culture.  We react by tightening up and

embracing the bits of our culture that makes us unique.

Multi-culturalism, The Brady Bunch Movie, Fame L.A., The Eagles, the

newfound admiration of hair music and glam rock of the Eighties (oh how

soon we forget Poison), Jon Bon Jovi's new album, aliens-are-evil movies,

disaster movies, Ric Flair, the popularity of tradtional jazz, ESPN's

classic games show; while sometimes its okay because (in the case of the

Beats) greatness gets recognized and something worthwhile is learned.

Sometimes, though, its pretty nausiating.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:26:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 1st post please read i need feed back thank u!!!!!

Comments: To: Jerry Mader <jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <345EE221.4D0C@Tidalwave.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

What's wrong with driving a minivan and taking the kids to baseball

practice? I couldn't help but be somewhat turned off by this post.  Some

of us are already out there, working a new "beat", except there's nothing

new about it. Every generation has its own beat, and so what if its family

oriented or whatever. I don't know if I can speak for anyone but myself,

but the reason why I talk so much about JK and AG is because I wish my

life could have been like theirs, not that I don't have my own beat going

on, because I do but there's no harm in daydreaming...

Let the kids dream.

~Nancy

 

 

 

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Jerry Mader wrote:

 

> i would like to start off by saying this is my first post, i am

> intrigued by your comments and keen observations. altought i think

> instead of observations and enlighten about the the past we as a whole

> shoud start a new "beat" (if u will), start going out and making noise,

> start to unravale the thoughts that are so twisted up in are minds that

> are screaming to get out.  instead of reveling in the 40's and 50's and

> so on that we explore new territory and give the 90's a new name make

> the beat happen now,play a cruel joke upon the 90's cosmic family, the

> caravan driving , take the kids to baseball practice generation. we all

> have something in common here we all have intrest in the past and we

> love it, we want to live in it. but reality has denied us this request.

> so we must make anew. take out thoughts of the past and interpreat them

> into the 90's skeem of things and start a new joyous worship in the game

> that we know is life our life we have been granted this lets go mad in

> it and start an new generation of mad cat digging the beat.  i can see

> it now young kids  going out in there parents sedan, making there way to

> the local book store and pondering thoughts in a book written by "us"

> buying this book and reaviling in its complexity yet its simplisity.

> they start to use there mind and soon start another beat movement

> appears and it is to never die, please lets let "IT" never die, let us

> all have hope that no one is to foget out heros kerouac, ginsberg,

> cassidy (thank you jack) the mad man in the JUNK yard bill burroughs

> (take it form him) let us  spin wildly out of control and upon our

> finger tip[s  let us spin a novel that shall,

> 

> 

>                 "DEFINE A GENERATION"

> 

> 

> the end,

> in need feed back to what i have gone to extreme to jote down upon the

> page, please do not take away any credability acount of the spelling,

> keep in mind i am young and still learing the ropes.  keep it rolling

> ladies and gents its out life let live it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:30:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971104014413.14724A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Exactly!!! We were born too late. I have spent most of my life kicking my

fate in the ass for this. I don't have webpage or a cellphone either and

I don't care to have one.

We look to the past for insiration because it is romantic, that whole Beat

movement and sets the wheels in our heads in motion. Its not just the

Beats. We take inspiration from everything around us, past or present.

 

 

 

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:

 

> hey folks,

>         based on what we know about Jack and the rest of the lads, what

> do you think their comments would be on the 90s, especially "gen x." ?

> Are we producing huge amounts of inspiring literature and social

> movements? Or are we just wasting time designing webpages and charging

> our cell phones? (i have neither. apologies for being too generalizing).

> Why is it that we look to the past for inspiration? Could it be that many

> of us were born too late?

>                                         jason

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:48:36 -0500

Reply-To:     Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@is8.nyu.edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971104083335.24899A-100000@am.appstate.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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I beg to differ. I think that my generation is amazing. A lot of people

have misconceptions about us because of the media but most of us are doinf

good stuff. I'm a literacy tutor in an elementary school on the Lower East

Side. I'm also a JumpStart corps member and I work with a little boy at a

HeadStart, also on LES. There's lots of us out there, doing lots of things

to effect change  but you wouldn't know this if you never interacted with

kids my age. We aren't all mallrats and shiftless potheads, and might I

add, your generation had quite a few potheads,too. I'm jaded but I'm not

cynical. Life is the best that it has been. Our opportunities are the

best and most of us take advantage of that.

Im proud of my generation...

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Alex Howard wrote:

 

> I don't think there's anything particularly amazing about this generation.

> There's a good book called Generations that talks about the cyclical

> nature of generations and relates the so-labled Generation X (even though

> those originally labled as such are now hitting their late-20s and 30s)

> to Hemingway's and Fitzgerald's Lost Generation.  American culture is also

> stinkingly nostalgic.  I don't think this is particularly characteristic

> of this generation but a product of the post-modern globalization (the

> millenium doesn't help) of culture.  We react by tightening up and

> embracing the bits of our culture that makes us unique.

> Multi-culturalism, The Brady Bunch Movie, Fame L.A., The Eagles, the

> newfound admiration of hair music and glam rock of the Eighties (oh how

> soon we forget Poison), Jon Bon Jovi's new album, aliens-are-evil movies,

> disaster movies, Ric Flair, the popularity of tradtional jazz, ESPN's

> classic games show; while sometimes its okay because (in the case of the

> Beats) greatness gets recognized and something worthwhile is learned.

> Sometimes, though, its pretty nausiating.

> 

> ------------------

> Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

> kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

> http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:54:16 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      am i back?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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lost in cyberspace, looking for my friends.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:02:01 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: am i back?

 

Marie!!!  we've been here chanting and meditating upon your return.  welcome

back, lost little beat!!!

 

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marie Countryman

Sent:   Tuesday, November 04, 1997 2:54 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        am i back?

 

lost in cyberspace, looking for my friends.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:20:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      translation

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If anyone can translate that German piece that Charles sent to the

list through me, Pam wrote and pointed out that near the end there is

a post/paragraph about Charles Plymell.  I think that is the one that

they wanted translated.  Please help if you can.

 

Thanks.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:15:49 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: am i back?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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mc

 

And we thought You were the one who had left!

 

js

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> lost in cyberspace, looking for my friends.

> mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:15:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971104094045.19359F-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> I beg to differ. I think that my generation is amazing. A lot of people

> have misconceptions about us because of the media but most of us are doinf

> good stuff.

 

What I mean is that I don't see this generation as particularly unique (as

a whole I mean).  This is the first one to come of age completely in the

trench of post-modernism (which is in itself unique), but as the

post-modern world is unique, there is difficulty finding a way of dealing

with it.  The hippies, the beatniks, the beats, the lost generation had

specific and logical ways to deal with the world as it presented itself at

that time.  Post-modernism has led to such a mish-mash of culture and

ideas, looking to the past as a reaction to the anxious present in an

attempt to understand everything that has become and is becoming of

culture and society there is not _distinct_ way in which this generation

has come upon to deal with and understand this era.  I'm not saying there

aren't a lot of worthwhile people and things happening (although I wonder

sometimes when I look around), I'm just saying that has yet a particular

reaction or distinguishing characteristic to emerge.  I do, however, see

great potential as American culture has just in this century become

distinguishable (or begun to be distinguishable) from European culture and

traditions.  Once post-modernism becomes something that can be understood

in about 20 or 30 years, it may be an incredibly important time in

cultural history.  I think that American culture since the turn of the

century will become quite important to bring about that coalescence and

the Beats in particular are a pivitol point in that development.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:52:43 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      tape spinning psychosis

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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blatenly off the beat en path

welcome to my little bizarro land

poem for 3 voices: a conversation in my head

 

my body's walking the rest of me downtown

going to get tapes

spin them for my friends

someone beat in here remembers a boheme

saying 'normal bias is all you need' in a weekend past.

 

NORMAL BIAS??????? shrieks "FOR THAT CREW, NORMAL?????"

WHAT PERVERSIONS R U UP TO????

(shut up mom)

 

"er.....from the corner on top shelf of bookcase:

normal bias is all you need for spoken word recordings"

 

oh well, yes, that is, yes.

all taking place within a nanosecond, leaving me with raging brain.

normal bias is all i need. yes.

btw: knowing many folks here are not from the land of the GD and taping

etiquette. usually in GD tapes as well with spoken word tapes with

others on list, the deal is either a swap or $ for postage and a blank

tape enclosed.

i really like spreading the word, but my body likes to eat every 3 days

or so.

if i've been testy, please excuse.

anyone who receives a tape i would be wildly enthused if a tape of bias

equal to what your tape is. all tapes looking space age generic are

multi/mother tapes used in first run sound board stuff. music high bias

quality.

i think this is the stuffiest i have ever been. it's hard when you can't

absorb costs ..

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:54:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971104110208.9541A-100000@am.appstate.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I resent the fact that you seem to be discounting my generation. You can't

possibly know what its like for us unless you are us. How old are you

anyway?

 

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Alex Howard wrote:

 

> > I beg to differ. I think that my generation is amazing. A lot of people

> > have misconceptions about us because of the media but most of us are doinf

> > good stuff.

> 

> What I mean is that I don't see this generation as particularly unique (as

> a whole I mean).  This is the first one to come of age completely in the

> trench of post-modernism (which is in itself unique), but as the

> post-modern world is unique, there is difficulty finding a way of dealing

> with it.  The hippies, the beatniks, the beats, the lost generation had

> specific and logical ways to deal with the world as it presented itself at

> that time.  Post-modernism has led to such a mish-mash of culture and

> ideas, looking to the past as a reaction to the anxious present in an

> attempt to understand everything that has become and is becoming of

> culture and society there is not _distinct_ way in which this generation

> has come upon to deal with and understand this era.  I'm not saying there

> aren't a lot of worthwhile people and things happening (although I wonder

> sometimes when I look around), I'm just saying that has yet a particular

> reaction or distinguishing characteristic to emerge.  I do, however, see

> great potential as American culture has just in this century become

> distinguishable (or begun to be distinguishable) from European culture and

> traditions.  Once post-modernism becomes something that can be understood

> in about 20 or 30 years, it may be an incredibly important time in

> cultural history.  I think that American culture since the turn of the

> century will become quite important to bring about that coalescence and

> the Beats in particular are a pivitol point in that development.

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:03:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: 1st post please read i need feed back thank u!!!!!

Comments: To: jjm@Tidalwave.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> instead of reveling in the 40's and 50's and

>so on that we explore new territory and give the 90's a new name make

>the beat happen now,play a cruel joke upon the 90's cosmic family, the

>caravan driving , take the kids to baseball practice generation.

>so we must make anew.

 

     <kaching!>  this, my friend, is the responsibility of our

generation of writers.. our generation being us youngins, the young

20somethings.  our 90s cosmic family needs 10 times the shaking than

the 50s one.  and, just as for jack and the rest, we're confronted with

the difficulty that the figureheads in the publishing world are not of

our ilk, but of an older gen, coupled with the capitalist money making

histeriafrenzy; books are made on marketability alone, and, while any

book is potentially marketable to some group out there, publishing

sharks want what caters to the very cosmifamily we, as the new writers,

are trying to affect.  and so the man be against us, and, at the

slightest sign of our interest in rocking their comfortable views, will

procede post haste to get medieval on our asses.  and so, you see, we

need to act now, no what-ifs.. are you a writer? let's go! strength in

numbers, baby, strength in numbers.  we have the strong advantageous

force of advanced communication on our side... we can use the fads to

our advantage, the internet, the www, computers; we can self-publish

and spread spread spread the mascufem love of our drive to

innerouteroversouldom...  let's get groovin now and show the zombies in

this country what bitchin disco really is...

 

                                                   peace and

funkilicious love

 

 ty

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:10:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>        based on what we know about Jack and the rest of the lads, what

>do you think their comments would be on the 90s, especially "gen x." ?

>Why is it that we look to the past for inspiration? Could it be that

>many

>of us were born too late?

 

     i think you've answered your own question.  the very fact that we

look to the past, us on this list, the kids who try to relive the 60's,

etc., is because the 90's are so fucked up.  no one knows what's going

on, we're all lost, community globalization has come too quickly for us

to assimilate, mass instant distanceless communication has turned us on

our heads.. why? because we, especially in this country, maintain our

grip on reality, on polarity, on what is and isn't, on fascism, on

outdated principles, laws, perceptions.. it iis the very past we look

back to that is responsible for our confusion in this new world.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:20:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

Comments: To: nbb203@is8.nyu.edu

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>. I'm a literacy tutor in an elementary school on the Lower East

>Side. I'm also a JumpStart corps member and I work with a little boy at

>a

>HeadStart, also on LES.  Life is the best that it has been. Our

>opportunities are the

>best and most of us take advantage of that.

>Im proud of my generation...

 

     one of the main problems with our generation is its strangle hold

on idealism.  it's disgusting the way we cling to bullshit

brainwashings like environmentalism, and "making the world a better

place," and all of the smarmy shit you can see any given day on any

american college campus.  like, puke me now.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:31:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Ferlinghetti article

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971104115346.18032A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

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(text of today's USA feature story on Larry Ferlinghetti.  Copyright 1997

Gannett Inc.  WWW.usatoday.com)

 

 

Beat poet Ferlinghetti on the road again

 

                      SAN FRANCISCO - With the deaths this year of

                      authors William Burroughs and Allen

                      Ginsberg, it seemed like the end of the road for

                      the Beats.

 

                      But in a dowdy book shop here on a busy North Beach

                      street corner, poet and political

                      activist Lawrence Ferlinghetti is carrying the Beat

                      legacy into the 21st century.

 

                      And that legacy is brighter than ever. City Lights

                      publishing, a division of the bookstore

                      that Ferlinghetti founded in 1953, is in the

                      forefront of avant-garde publishing. Courses in

                      Beat literature are staples on college campuses

                      nationwide. New anthologies of Beat

                      writings fill bookstore shelves. And a movie

                      version of Jack Kerouac's On the Road is in

                      the works.

 

                      Even the recent resurgence of coffee bar culture

                      and poetry slams has its roots in the Beats,

                      says Jack Nachbar, professor of popular culture at

                      Bowling Green State University. "The

                      Beats are getting publicity because of the deaths

                      of some of the writers or the anniversary

                      of certain publications. That resonates with

                      boomers who read those guys and were excited

                      by them."

 

                      This iconization of his friends brings a bemused

                      twinkle to Ferlinghetti's icy blue eyes. To

                      him, the writings of Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs,

                      Gary Snyder et al. were not isolated

                      examples of literary rebellion. "The Beats were

                      just a phase of dissident literature," says

                      Ferlinghetti, 78, from his office on the

                      bookstore's top floor. "Look at Baudelaire, Poe

                      and Whitman. There's a long line of outsider

                      literature."

 

                      The Beats' outlaw image captured the American

                      imagination, he says. "Kerouac and (Neal)

                      Cassidy were the prototypical American anti-heroes.

                      Had Cassidy lived in the 19th

                      century, he'd have ridden a horse. But in the 20th

                      century, his hot rod was his horse. The

                      idea of being on the road was part of that

                      tradition."

 

                      Ferlinghetti will forever be associated with the

                      Beat camp, but his place in American letters

                      goes beyond that, says Doug Brinkley, professor of

                      history at the University of New

                      Orleans and Beat era expert. "He was the

                      progenitor, along with (poet) Kenneth Rexroth,

                      of the San Francisco poetry renaissance.

 

                      "By opening City Lights, he attracted hobo

                      wanderers, Zen Buddhists, disenfranchised

                      poets, dissidents and political exiles to San

                      Francisco, and it became the place to be for

                      alternative living and multiculturalness."

 

                      Ferlinghetti didn't set out to be a social

                      revolutionary or a Beat. "I got associated with them

                      because I published them. I was a bohemian, an

                      artist. I wore a beret."

 

                      He picked up the knack for both painting and beret

                      wearing while living in Paris on the

                      G.I. Bill after the war. He had joined the Navy in

                      1941 and commanded a ship during the

                      Normandy invasion. In 1951, he married Selden

                      Kirby-Smith, an American artist, and

                      they moved to San Francisco. Ferlinghetti and

                      Kirby-Smith, who divorced in 1976, had

                      two children.

 

                      Disenchanted by his wartime experiences,

                      Ferlinghetti got caught up in the underground

                      liberal fervor of the time. City Lights became its

                      headquarters, and Ferlinghetti its poetic

                      voice of dissent.

 

                      Today, the walls of City Lights are still hung with

                      dissident posters; one declares "Death to

                      the State." Upstairs, Ferlinghetti's office is hung

                      with posters and photos of Beat writers,

                      including a picture of Ferlinghetti with a gaunt

                      Ginsberg. "It was his last photo taken in

                      San Francisco," he says.

 

                      Ginsberg died of liver cancer in April. A heart

                      attack claimed Burroughs in August. "It's

                      been a sad year for me," Ferlinghetti says of his

                      departed friends. His fellow poet is a

                      particular loss. "In the poetic firmament in the

                      sky, there's a big hole since Ginsberg died."

 

                      Ferlinghetti's name will forever be linked with

                      Ginsberg's because City Lights published

                      Howl in 1956.

 

                      Ferlinghetti knew the epic poem containing

                      references to drug use and homosexuality

                      would be controversial. "After reading it, I

                      approached the American Civil Liberties

                      Union, and they committed themselves to defending

                      us."

 

                      When Howl was brought to court on obscenity

                      charges, Ferlinghetti won the case.

 

                      "The municipal court in San Francisco decided if

                      the book had the slightest redeeming

                      social significance, it wasn't obscene."

                      Ferlinghetti states with pride that the Howl case set

                      a precedent for the publication of other

                      controversial works, including those by Henry

                      Miller and Jean Genet.

 

                      In his own poems, Ferlinghetti never shied away

                      from hot-button issues. Tyrannus Nix?

                      (1969) blasted President Nixon for the war in

                      Vietnam. It established him as the political

                      Beat.

 

                      "His poetry is underrated," says Brinkley, who

                      believes that Ferlinghetti remains in the

                      shadow of Ginsberg. "He's a top-tier poet of 20th

                      century America. He can be talked

                      about in the same breath as Carl Sandburg for

                      having a deadpan honesty."

 

                      Ferlinghetti is still producing politically charged

                      poetry. His latest collection, A Far

                      Rockaway of the Heart, was published in May as a

                      companion to his famed A Coney

                      Island of the Mind (1958). The new poem History Is

                      Made . . . contains the lines "A lot of

                      genocides and massacres/maybe never really

                      happened/so the record should be corrected/

                      like the Holocaust or the rape of Cuba and

                      Nicaragua or Cambodia or Timor."

 

                      "I was a Fidelista in the '60s and a Sandinista in

                      the '80s. I guess I'm a just tourist of

                      revolutions," says the self-proclaimed anarchist.

 

                      True to his politics, Ferlinghetti believes that

                      the USA is in need of revolution now. "There

                      doesn't seem to be any rebellious voice raised. To

                      be political is seen as uncool."

 

                      He goes so far as to compare the '90s to the '50s.

                      "It's like the McCarthy era; there's a

                      pressure for conformity."

 

                      And he considers the computer revolution the new

                      Cold War. Just as we fought the

                      "inhuman" forces of communism in the '50s, we're

                      fighting the "inhuman" forces of

                      technology today, he says.

 

                      Although City Lights has a Web site, Ferlinghetti

                      is resisting the cyber lifestyle. "In the

                      '60s, the slogan was 'Be Here Now.' Today, with

                      cell phones and the Internet and the

                      World Wide Web, the slogan is 'Be Somewhere Else

                      Now.' "

 

                      For that reason, Ferlinghetti thinks the spirit of

                      the Beats is needed now more than ever.

                      "They're the only rebellion around." The most

                      rebellious voices today are feminist and

                      Third World authors, particularly Latin Americans,

                      he says. "Whitey doesn't have a

                      revolution of his own, so he has to latch on to

                      others' revolutions."

 

                      With City Lights publishing, Ferlinghetti aims to

                      fulfill his mission: fomenting

                      international dissidence. So it's no surprise that

                      the fall catalog lists books by several

                      feminist and Latin American authors. After all, he

                      says, "you can't publish a revolution if

                      there isn't one."

 

                      By Cathy Hainer, USA TODAY

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:34:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

Comments: To: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@umit.maine.edu>

In-Reply-To:  <msg1167517.thr-72251487.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

How dare you attack my idealism? And you know what, our idealism is

working. I dare you to go to the second grade classroom where I work and

tell those kids that nothing will make a difference in their lives. Just

because you are jaded and cynical, doesn't mean that that view is

representative of our generation. I feel sorry for people like you.

If you aren't part of the solution,you're part of the problem, so keep you

mouth shut if you have nothing worthwhile to say. (I'm guessing that you

are one of those people that likes to blame everybody for everything

except yourself...grow up)

 

 

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >. I'm a literacy tutor in an elementary school on the Lower East

> >Side. I'm also a JumpStart corps member and I work with a little boy at

> >a

> >HeadStart, also on LES.  Life is the best that it has been. Our

> >opportunities are the

> >best and most of us take advantage of that.

> >Im proud of my generation...

> 

>      one of the main problems with our generation is its strangle hold

> on idealism.  it's disgusting the way we cling to bullshit

> brainwashings like environmentalism, and "making the world a better

> place," and all of the smarmy shit you can see any given day on any

> american college campus.  like, puke me now.

> 

> 

> 

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:36:09 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

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Babble, babble, babble!

 

We were all born too late for somethings, too early for others.

 

Isn't there a chat room for tortured Gen X'rs to go to to moan about

their mistimed births? Or some other list: Angst-L, Po Me Born too

Late-L, Would Jack have had Pierced Nipples-L . . .

 

JS

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:40:54 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

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>      one of the main problems with our generation is its strangle hold

> on idealism.  it's disgusting the way we cling to bullshit

> brainwashings like environmentalism, and "making the world a better

> place," and all of the smarmy shit you can see any given day on any

> american college campus.  like, puke me now.

 

gee, i love this, the thinking, the rich prose, it makes me quiver. Here

but for a few bad habits go i.  shit, this is just so cool. i hate

everything too.  all these people spending there goddam time with the

worthless no good world, they aught to wake up, it isn't cool.why do

they bother to say this environmental stuff, i am not going to think

they are cool no matter what they do.

love

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:45:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <345F5D09.3BA@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Yeah, isn't there one? I'm tired of gen x'ers giving my  generation bad

name. Our generation is so cool that we don't need some label to establish

us...

 

 

 

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Babble, babble, babble!

> 

> We were all born too late for somethings, too early for others.

> 

> Isn't there a chat room for tortured Gen X'rs to go to to moan about

> their mistimed births? Or some other list: Angst-L, Po Me Born too

> Late-L, Would Jack have had Pierced Nipples-L . . .

> 

> JS

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:47:53 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971104115346.18032A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Boy, these people sure are beatin' up on you buddy!  You hit a nerve, I

think.  My own take is that it never hurts to be willing to question

oneself, and since I don't consider myself spokesman for my generation,

particularly, I feel free to question them, too...amen to you, Brother,

for bravery!  Carry on!

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

 

"Only the shallow know themselves."

                        --Oscar Wilde

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:42:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

Comments: To: nbb203@is8.nyu.edu

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>How dare you attack my idealism? And you know what, our idealism is

>working. I feel sorry for people like you.

>If you aren't part of the solution,you're part of the problem, so keep

>you

>mouth shut if you have nothing worthwhile to say. (I'm guessing that you

>are one of those people that likes to blame everybody for everything

>except yourself...grow up)

 

     um.. methinks i smell a misunderstanding.  maybe my brevity and

manner of phrasing gave a false impression of what i was suggesting.  i

applaud the fact that you're helping those kids, and i wouldn't try to

deter you from it.  hey, i love kids myself, and i hang around with

them and do what i can for them.  my comment wasn't directed at your

idealism, i was only using your comment as a reference point in this

discussion.  i sincerely apologize if my intentions seemed otherwise.

     i do, however, disagree with your solution/problem theory.  and

your suggestion about having something worthwhile to say.. when people

say that they usually mean if you're not part of my agenda, and don't

have anything to say that promotes my interests, then shutup.  ALL

things are worthwhile, a person can learn something from anything if he

cultivates even the slighest amount of insight... and so, even the

remarks of a seeming asshole like myself can be beneficial.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:54:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Ferlinghetti article

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971104122033.27489A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Hi...I havent been reading this list the last two weeks, but when I read

this article on Ferlinghetti this morning, I thought I'd post it and

start a thread.

 

Ferlinghetti's sentiments seem to be that there is no revolutionary

spirit anymore, that much of the Beat spirit has been lost and that we

are now (as much or more than in the 50's) a society of conformity.  He

also is quoted as saying the beats were "just a phase of dissident

literature".  That we are in need of a new revolution.  He seems to imply

that this generation may be lacking in either the spirit, incentive or

ideas for a revolution.

 

The article points out that the City Lights fall catalog includes a lot

of Latin American authors, and other international authors, seemingly

because there isnt enough "revolutionary" literature being written these

days in this country.

 

Is Larry right?  Maybe the current re-surgence of interest in the Beats

is simple nostalgia for days that have gone by, for old revolutions and

old glory days.  For old soldiers who are now finally dying off. Accepting

this thesis, what then is the relevanceof beat

writing and/or beat philosophy in current times, when we are seemingly

permanently drawn into a world of materialism and conformity?

 

The social problems that sparked earlier revolutions arent as apparent

anymore.  There is still racism, sexism et al...there is even still

censorship...but much of it is underground or closeted.

 

If the Beats were just a "dissident phase" and the resurgence

"nostalgia", how do we relate these writings and authors to modern times?

 

Do we need another revolution?

 

 

Richard W. (rwallner@capaccess.org)

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:45:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>Babble, babble, babble!

>We were all born too late for somethings, too early for others.

>Isn't there a chat room for tortured Gen X'rs to go to to moan about

>their mistimed births? Or some other list: Angst-L, Po Me Born too

>Late-L, Would Jack have had Pierced Nipples-L . . .

 

   haha! rotflmao.. agreement.. seems like that gen-x mistimed birth

garbage is just an excuse for dissatisfaction and an inability to cope.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:52:09 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  <msg1167521.thr-72251487.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>      one of the main problems with our generation is its strangle hold

> on idealism.  it's disgusting the way we cling to bullshit

> brainwashings like environmentalism, and "making the world a better

> place," and all of the smarmy shit you can see any given day on any

> american college campus.  like, puke me now.

 

 

Especially when it's all sponsored by Exxon and Wal-Mart...

 

Don

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:52:34 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ferlinghetti article

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Glad You are with us Richard

 

In good humor:

Signed: The Clique  (Are we ready to laugh at ourselves or what):

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:59:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

Comments: To: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971104123027.28734A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Dear Nancy,

 

You seem to be someone who is doing a lot of good work and changing

people's lives in real & lasting way.  No one with any goddamn sense would

criticize that work.  However, and I'm sure you would agree with me, a

general critique of the Status Quo is much an essential plank of the Beat

mentality as anything, and probably in fact is the most important plank

(IMHO).  So in the name of peace (thinking here of the incessant boring

public flaming over the Kerouac Estate recently), doncha think these young

cats are just carrying the ol' Kerouac/Thoreau dissident torch?

 

Namaste,

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

 

"Only the shallow know themselves."

                        --Oscar Wilde

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:59:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      my big mouth

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     jeese... what did i do?  coud somon pease remofe my foot fwom my

mouf.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:06:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

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>(IMHO).  So in the name of peace (thinking here of the incessant boring

>public flaming over the Kerouac Estate recently), doncha think these

>young

>cats are just carrying the ol' Kerouac/Thoreau dissident torch?

 

   thank you, friend, that's what i was attempting.  thanks for having

the words in your mouth to say what i obviously didn't manage to get

out of my own... i think i need a nap.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:13:38 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ferlinghetti article

Comments: To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971104123826.27489C-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> Ferlinghetti's sentiments seem to be that there is no revolutionary

> spirit anymore, that much of the Beat spirit has been lost and that we

> are now (as much or more than in the 50's) a society of conformity.

 

I really wonder.  I just turned 35 over the weekend, and it seems to me

that the pressure to conform just picks up as you get older, to the point

where you finally start to question your own resistance to putting on a

tie and going in to punch the ol' clock.  Even though I clearly remember

going 1/2 insane doing that just a few years ago.  I went back to college

to get out of that rut, and am now about to graduate and go back into it,

I guess, unless somebody has a better suggestion.

 

> Is Larry right?  Maybe the current re-surgence of interest in the Beats

> is simple nostalgia for days that have gone by, for old revolutions and

> old glory days.  For old soldiers who are now finally dying off.

 

I betcha nothing is ever "just" anything, so it's not "simple nostalgia."

Granted that has to be a big part of it, but still--the Beats were trying

really hard to avoid getting sucked into the Materialistic Post WWII

Eisenhower brainsuck weltanschaaung.  Nowadays we have the

post-Reagan/Bush credit card fatalism, our most recent youth movement

(cleverly co-opted and marketed by Babylon, it never really stood a

chance) the grunge Gen Xers already a thing of the past...Michel Foucault

talks about the Critique of Resistance, in which he says:  Resist.  Even

if you know it'll never work, resist.  Winning is not even the issue.

Resist the Power Grid.  And if you come to think that the Grid even

accomodates resistance (by marketing it on MTV), then do like the

Surrealists did, and resist in ways that make no f**kin' sense...like

Sisyphus and the Rock.  As Camus said, We Must Imagine Sisyphus Happy.  So

just don't give in...

 

>Do we need another Revolution?

 

The Revolution must come inside yr own head.  Cast Off Your Old Tired

Ethics.  Be a Crazy Dumbsaint of the Mind.

 

"Hearken, amigos, to the olden message:  it's neither what you think it

is, nor what you think it isn't, but an elder matter, uncompounded and

clear--"

        --Kerouac, VISIONS OF GERARD

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:18:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

 

In a message dated 97-11-04 12:35:46 EST, you write:

 

<<  And you know what, our idealism is

 working. I dare you to go to the second grade classroom where I work and >>

 

and what do you mean "our?"

i believe i'd be considered with those among generation x fame, and i don't

feel idealistic or a need to get up and "save the world"

i only ask for a moment to catch a glance of the sky before it rains--all

pregnant and swollen, a cup of coffee and a menthol cigarette. what else is

there?

~~marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:37:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      we have a chat room!

 

dear listees,

awhile ago someone posted all the beat web pages and so forth, along with

that came the connection to the beat generation chat room. since then i've

peeped my head in to see if any of you go there. i'm sad to report i haven't

seen a single soul. is it that no ones know how to get there, or that no one

on the list likes chatrooms. i love our e-mailing list, but i'd like to chat

with fellow beat lovers and scholars. so, if someone would be kind enough to

post that link again, i'd really appreciate it. and if you all hate

chatrooms, just let me know and i'll quit whining. Take it easy.

 

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:20:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971104115346.18032A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

 

> I resent the fact that you seem to be discounting my generation. You can't

> possibly know what its like for us unless you are us. How old are you

> anyway?

> 

 

I'm 21 years old, a senior majoring in American Studies struggling to find

a competent answer to "Is there something unique about America? If so,

what?" that is the big Final Essay Question In The Sky for anyone involved

with American Studies.  I think Modernism and post-modernism has the

potential to be a very crucial and defining time in American history.

Post-modernism is very shaky and doesn't have a name because there isn't

anything unifying about it to give it a name, much like, I feel, this

generation as the demographic is the first to spend its entire life in

the post-modern era. I don't like including myself under the label

because, like post-modernism, it doesn't mean or denote anything.

 

> > What I mean is that I don't see this generation as particularly unique (as

> > a whole I mean).  This is the first one to come of age completely in the

> > trench of post-modernism (which is in itself unique), but as the

> > post-modern world is unique, there is difficulty finding a way of dealing

> > with it.  The hippies, the beatniks, the beats, the lost generation had

> > specific and logical ways to deal with the world as it presented itself at

> > that time.  Post-modernism has led to such a mish-mash of culture and

> > ideas, looking to the past as a reaction to the anxious present in an

> > attempt to understand everything that has become and is becoming of

> > culture and society there is not _distinct_ way in which this generation

> > has come upon to deal with and understand this era.  I'm not saying there

> > aren't a lot of worthwhile people and things happening (although I wonder

> > sometimes when I look around), I'm just saying that has yet a particular

> > reaction or distinguishing characteristic to emerge.  I do, however, see

> > great potential as American culture has just in this century become

> > distinguishable (or begun to be distinguishable) from European culture and

> > traditions.  Once post-modernism becomes something that can be understood

> > in about 20 or 30 years, it may be an incredibly important time in

> > cultural history.  I think that American culture since the turn of the

> > century will become quite important to bring about that coalescence and

> > the Beats in particular are a pivitol point in that development.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:46:24 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

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ok all you pikers posers weasels and whiners

i have consulted with my alter personality, who in another life was a

therapist.

half of you should walk as weirdly as possible to monty python's arguement

clinic do not wait a moment, asap mon cheris!

the rest go stand and rot in the verbal abuse clinic.

there now.

any one with newly diagnosed prostrate problems?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:05:29 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jean-ory <jean-ory@ALTRANET.FR>

Subject:      Naropa Inst and Allen G.

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A tribute to Allen Ginsberg  at :

 

http://www.naropa.edu/ginsberg.html

 

Cheers

 

Jean

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:41:32 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      usatoday ferlinghetti article

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sorry if this was already mentioned, but there is a article in

usatoday on the web  if you do not have it in paper @

http://www.usatoday.com/life/dcovtue.htm

they mention the otr movie in there as well....

enjoy

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:09:11 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      buk tapes

Comments: To: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca>

In-Reply-To:  <345EDBC7.2FBE@sk.sympatico.ca>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Adrien (and any other buk fans:

Facets Multimedia Inc. (1517 West Fullerton Ave., Chicago, IL 60614; 312

281-9075) lists the _Charles Bukowski Tapes_ (1987; 240 min.) as available

for purchase: "It's a gem . . . an outrageously stimulating and unnerving

all-night drinking session with a gutter eloquent barroom philosopher who

has made his sould your own. . . . One of the most intimate, revelatory

and unsparing glimpses any film or video has ever given us of a writer's

life and personality," raved Michael Wilmington in _The Los Angeles

Times_. Directed by Barbet Schroeder (_Barfly_), a 4-hour video portrait

of the renegade poet of contemporary literature.

Now comes the bad news: purchase price--$100.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:18:22 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: buk tapes

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.ULT.3.96.971104160151.18224A-100000@cwis.unomaha.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Wanted to let you all know (although many of you probably already

know!)...I was at the used record store, oops, used CD store...sorry.

COOL Buk CD, $25, with a great cover...the Budweiser label transposed to

say "Bukowski"...anyone seen or heard it?  Should I invest (poor college

student, y'know).

 

Jorgiana

 

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Michael Skau wrote:

 

> Adrien (and any other buk fans:

> Facets Multimedia Inc. (1517 West Fullerton Ave., Chicago, IL 60614; 312

> 281-9075) lists the _Charles Bukowski Tapes_ (1987; 240 min.) as available

> for purchase: "It's a gem . . . an outrageously stimulating and unnerving

> all-night drinking session with a gutter eloquent barroom philosopher who

> has made his sould your own. . . . One of the most intimate, revelatory

> and unsparing glimpses any film or video has ever given us of a writer's

> life and personality," raved Michael Wilmington in _The Los Angeles

> Times_. Directed by Barbet Schroeder (_Barfly_), a 4-hour video portrait

> of the renegade poet of contemporary literature.

> Now comes the bad news: purchase price--$100.

> Cordially,

> Mike Skau

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:19:48 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: buk tapes

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.ULT.3.96.971104160151.18224A-100000@cwis.unomaha.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Sorry, my bad...shoulda included this in last message from bothersome

me...maybe we should chip in, buy it, then copy the hell out of it for all

those of us on this list who are interested.  Seems brilliant to me...

 

Jorgiana

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Michael Skau wrote:

 

> Adrien (and any other buk fans:

> Facets Multimedia Inc. (1517 West Fullerton Ave., Chicago, IL 60614; 312

> 281-9075) lists the _Charles Bukowski Tapes_ (1987; 240 min.) as available

> for purchase: "It's a gem . . . an outrageously stimulating and unnerving

> all-night drinking session with a gutter eloquent barroom philosopher who

> has made his sould your own. . . . One of the most intimate, revelatory

> and unsparing glimpses any film or video has ever given us of a writer's

> life and personality," raved Michael Wilmington in _The Los Angeles

> Times_. Directed by Barbet Schroeder (_Barfly_), a 4-hour video portrait

> of the renegade poet of contemporary literature.

> Now comes the bad news: purchase price--$100.

> Cordially,

> Mike Skau

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:24:06 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: buk tapes

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Michael Skau wrote:

> 

> Adrien (and any other buk fans:

> Facets Multimedia Inc. (1517 West Fullerton Ave., Chicago, IL 60614; 312

> 281-9075) lists the _Charles Bukowski Tapes_ (1987; 240 min.) as available

> for purchase: "It's a gem . . . an outrageously stimulating and unnerving

> all-night drinking session with a gutter eloquent barroom philosopher who

> has made his sould your own. . . . One of the most intimate, revelatory

> and unsparing glimpses any film or video has ever given us of a writer's

> life and personality," raved Michael Wilmington in _The Los Angeles

> Times_. Directed by Barbet Schroeder (_Barfly_), a 4-hour video portrait

> of the renegade poet of contemporary literature.

> Now comes the bad news: purchase price--$100.

> Cordially,

> Mike Skau

 

Well, hang on there a sec...

 

The reason I posted the question is because the Sundance Channel is

showing the entire four hours on Nov. 28 and 30. Fortunately for myself

I can see it via satellite dish, hopefully some of you down south have

access on cable...I don't know about the availability of Sundance around

the States.

 

I did some internet searching a short while ago and found out that tv

stations in France used the short interview segments with Buk as a

sign-off, instead of playing the national anthem like we do in North

America. Now that's respect!

 

Adrien

 

ps for anyone who does have Sundance channel, Nov. 28 is a big day full

of great beat films...I got ahold of some info on what they're showing:

 

Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg, The

 

Directed by Jerry Aaronson

Distributed by First Run Features

1993

Director Jerry Aronson's portrait of Beat poetry's legendary

grandfather, Allen Ginsberg, traces the writer's life through its many

diverse stages, including his years as a Columbia University student, to

a counterculture legend, to a hippie, to a Buddhist. Included are

interviews with those people best qualified to comment: Norman Mailer,

William Burroughs, Joan Baez and Dr. Timothy Leary. NR (adult content,

adult language)

 

Poet On the Lower East Side, A: a DocudiaryOn Allen Ginsberg

 

Directed by Gyula Gazdag

Distributed by Gyula Gazdag

1996

 

Favorably received at the 1996 Venice Film Festival, director Gyula

Gazdag's documentary presents four uncensored days with the late poet,

Allen Ginsberg, as he meanders around New York City answering questions,

reading poetry and making observations about life as he goes about his

daily routines. TV14 (adult content, adult language, brief nudity)

(1:36)

 

Last Beat Movie, The

 

Directed by Renee Tajima-pena

Distributed by Showtime Networks Inc.

 

In this Sundance Channel Original Documentary, director Renee

Tajima-Pena, whose My America (or Honk If You Love Buddha) won the

Sundance Festival's Cinematography Award, travels across America seeking

the people, influences and ""on-the-road"" spirit of the Beat

Generation. TBD (adult content) (:30)

 

Charles Bukowski Tapes, The

 

Directed by Barbet Schroeder

Distributed by Circle Associates, Ltd.

1985

 

An unhurried chat with Charles Bukowski reveals his views and his world.

In this extended interview, split into fifty-two segments, Bukowski

drinks, smokes, talks about bars, cities, art, the human condition and

everything else. Barbet Schroeder directed this 1985 film. TV14 (adult

content, adult language, mild violence) (4:00)

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:13:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sad Enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>

Subject:      empty streets and ancient coughs

 

hi, i'm new to the list and stuff.  i'm 18 and i've never had a real job and

i never plan on getting one.  i never plan on anything really.  i make movies

when i can and that's occcupational i guess.   and i just thought i'd say  hi

and a small introduction of sorts,   have a nice night and a happy halloween

 

 

  <3

 

          chad

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:55:57 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      generation x

 

Hey, does anyone know where I can find the generation x list?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:35:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

You call this an argument.   Why, you haven't been arguing at all.

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> ok all you pikers posers weasels and whiners

> i have consulted with my alter personality, who in another life was a

> therapist.

> half of you should walk as weirdly as possible to monty python's arguement

> clinic do not wait a moment, asap mon cheris!

> the rest go stand and rot in the verbal abuse clinic.

> there now.

> any one with newly diagnosed prostrate problems?

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:40:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Every 20 years

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Well, it is interesting.  Every 20 years it comes around again.  In

the 70's it was 50's music.  In the 80's it was 60's and now disco,

70's is the fad.  Hmmmm, think what it will be like next time when

they get the 80's around again.  Or what about in the next when they

look back to the 90's for the cool stuff.  You are making it now.  It

is hard to see the big picture. " Right here right now, there is no

other place I'd rather be.  Right here right now. "

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:45:57 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: empty streets and ancient coughs

Comments: To: Sad Enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <971104181240_1894894343@mrin45.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Sad Enigma wrote:

 

> hi, i'm new to the list and stuff.  i'm 18 and i've never had a real job and

> i never plan on getting one.  i never plan on anything really.  i make movies

> when i can and that's occcupational i guess.   and i just thought i'd say  hi

> and a small introduction of sorts,   have a nice night and a happy halloween

> 

Sounds to me you're practicing Be Here Now stuff, plus well hell I can

only applaud your opposition to "real" jobs.  To heck w/ 'em...

 

Make movies!  You seen "Pull My Daisy"?  Kerouac narrates.  check it out!

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:43:43 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      generation x

 

Those of you who are new to the list might like to know that the

"generation x" topic has surfaced several times on the list over the

last two years.  If the responses seem a little intemperate, it's

probably because those discussions got a bit out of hand.  While it's

fine to compare generation x and the beat generation, we wouldn't want

the discussion to stray too far from the scope of the list.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:47:26 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <345FBF50.8BDE6911@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> You call this an argument.   Why, you haven't been arguing at all.

> 

 

This reminds me of the Humpty Dumpty conversation in ALICE.  Don't know

why.  Gotta look it up...

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:04:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      The Plymell site

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

http://www.fto.de/fthp/gassner/jk_mesdd2.html

 

That is the site that Charles wanted to see if someone could translate.

If I can figure out what has Charles mentioned in it, I will post it

later.  This is the url.  If you can read this language, please

translate the paragraph that mentions Charles Plymell and either send it

to him, post it here, or send it to me and I will send it to Charles.

Thanks.

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:01:25 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      the italian judge

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hello.  i am new to this list, and i come now with a

specific intention.

my name is james donahue, and i am a graduate student

in english at boston college, where i also teach a

section of freshman writing seminar.  i am structuring

an assignment using kerouacs 'letter to an italian

judge' (goode blonde and others).  in this letter (for

those who may not know), kerouac responds/replies to a

certain judge censuring his novel, 'the

subterraneans.'  what i am looking for is something

from the judge - a transcript, copy, report,

summation, paraphrasing, etc.  in other words,

anything that will serve as a go-between from the

novel to kerouacs response.

i thank in advance anyone who may be able to help.

responses can be sent to the list, or i can be replied

to directly at donahujl@moa.bc.edu or

jadonahu@lynx.dac.neu.edu (both systems are case

sensitive).

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:10:26 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: generation x

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997110419483107@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

i dont know much about the discussion on this point,

but ill make it brief.  (hell, i am new here.)

i wouldnt compare the two generations.  i think thats

because isee generation x, and i dont see a point.  i

just taught a week on this topic - generation x

- (freshman writing at boston college), and the conclusion

was that generation x is directionless as in without a

purpose, as opposed to directionless as a response to

coventional notions of direction.  who knows, maybe a

few decades will change that (or at least a view of

that - i know from experience that scholars can argue

a cause or "point" for anything).

in other words, i dont see why a big fuss should be

made, all movements are similar, all are different.

jim donahue

 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> Those of you who are new to the list might like to know that the

> "generation x" topic has surfaced several times on the list over the

> last two years.  If the responses seem a little intemperate, it's

> probably because those discussions got a bit out of hand.  While it's

> fine to compare generation x and the beat generation, we wouldn't want

> the discussion to stray too far from the scope of the list.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:20:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Well, I found Plymell

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

I finally found Charles and on the off chance that someone can and will

translate, I copied the article/column from that point on down.  It

appears to be an interview or something with THE MAN.

 

____________________ Begin something here __________________________

 

Ein weiteres Glanzst|ck des Stvrer Nr. 13 - ein Essay von Franz Dobler

|ber Social Beat.

(Nachdruck einer Sendung vom SWF, Okt. 95.) Dobler verhehlt nicht seine

Sympathien f|r die

Social-Beat-Bewegung: "Klingt doch ganz spannend - und das ist es auch."

Dobler sieht aber auch

die Gefahren: "Was ich hier positiv sehe, weist aber auch schon auf die

Klippe hin - hinter der die

kunstlose Sprache zur naiven wird, die Alltagsbeschreibung zur

langweilligen, die Dichterarbeit zum

Freizeitvertrieb, und der politische Protest zum Geschrei, an dem nichts

als ein Bier zuviel schuld ist.

Ja, ich hebe nachdenklich den Zeigefinger und verweise auf ein Interview

mit Charles Plymell, wo er

sagt, da_ Kuhscheisse an den Stiefeln nicht unbedingt besser ist als ein

Harward-Studium, wenn es

um das Schreiben guter Literatur geht. Und dieser Plymell hatte mehr

Kuhschei_e an den Stiefeln als

alle amerikanischen Beat-Autoren zusammen." Hier kann ich mich Franz

Dobler nur anschlie_en.

Andererseits verfolge ich die hiesige Literaturszene intensiv seit |ber

drei Jahren und mu_ zugeben,

da_ viele der Underground-Schreiber sich rasant entwickelt haben - was

das Literarische und den

Stil angeht. Und wo man noch vor drei Jahren schrie:

Bukowski-Apologeten! hdlt man heutzutage

sein dummes Maul. Manch ein Text von Tuberkel Knuppertz zum Beispiel

w|rde auch dem

Altmeister Hank die Schamrvte ins Gesicht treiben.

 

Dobler schneidet auch die wichtigste Folge des Booms der alternativen

Literaturszene an: "Was

hei_t, da_ die marktwirtschafliche Kontrollfunktion durch 'richtige'

Verlage au_er Kraft gesetzt ist.

Und genau das soll es auch hei_en." Genau! Und jetzt meine Bitte an euch

alle: Unterst|tzen wir

doch diese gro_artige Szene, die sich hier unabhdngig von den Propheten

der Langweile entwickelt.

Wenn jeder von uns drei, vier der Szenezeitschriften aboniert, w|rde die

Sache wie geschmiert

laufen. Viele der Zeitungen kommen sowieso nur einmal pro halbes Jahr

heraus und kosten weniger

als zwei Kugeln Eis bei Marchi. Au_erdem nimmst du beim Lesen nicht zu

und tust etwas Gutes.

(Na, ja, ich kenne schon Leute, die eine Kiste Pralinen brauchen, um

sich durch eine Seite

durchzukdmpfen.)

 

Und noch eine Zeitschrift m|_t ihr unbedingt kennenlernen: Auf Oliver

Bopps Cocksucker, meinem

Lieblingsmedieum, steht der Untertitel: Zeitung f|r

Undergroundliteratur. Und Cocksucker ist

tatsdchlich reiner Underground Bukowskischer Prdgung - Vorsicht KULT!

Ich habe die Nr. 7

(September, 1993) noch bei Biby Wintjes bestellt, quasi zum

Reinschnuppern, und habe mich in die

Zeitung gleich verknallt - eine platonische Liebe selbstverstdndlich.

Doch drin fand ich das pralle

Leben! Abooooo! Seitdem flattert mir jede drei, und jetzt jede vier

Monate die Zeitung mit dem

Glanzcover ins Haus. Unverge_lich Ollis Intros. Wie er zum Beispiel im

Heft 9 mit der

selbstgerechten Linken abrechnete (LINKS! Zwo, drei, vier...): "Gestehen

wir uns ein, da_ die Welt

sich f|r ein System entschieden hat, welches den Menschen

charakterisiert. Setzen wir also zundchst

am Menschen an und nicht am System." Macht sie nicht Freude, diese klare

Sprache? Ein so

gro_artiger Gedanke und einfach gesagt. Das Intro endete mit: "Was den

Sexismus angeht, so

werde ich meine Ndchte auch in Zukunft nicht mit |berfl|ssigen

Diskussionen |ber das

Wenn und Aber verplempern, sondern bumsen, was das Zeug hdlt. Wenn ich

am Morgen

danach ein Schamhaar auf meiner Zunge finde, dann ist mir das lieber als

ein Barthaar -

ein ganz langes." Als ich den Text zu Ende las, dachte ich mir gleich,

diesem Typen mu_ ich meine

Storys schicken. Was ich in diesem Zusammnehang interessant finde: Die

meisten Frauen stvren sich

|berhaupt nicht daran, da_ uns diese wunderschvnen Dinger so gut

gefallen: Die Beine, die Br|ste,

die wunderbaren runden Drsche und vor allem die... na, ja, die lasse ich

jetzt aus - heute hab ich

Friederike schon genug gedrgert. Immer stvren sich vor allem

irgendwelche Mdnner an unserem

Sexismus. Unldngst las ich in einer kleinen Schriftstellerrunde meine

Geschichte Sommertage. Nach

der Lesung sagt Max Blaeulich, ein Redakteur von Literatur und Kritik:

"Das war die

frauenfeindlichste Geschichte, die ich je gehvrt habe." (Max hatte

vorher in der Runde seinen Text

|ber irgendeine Knopffabrik gelesen, na, ja...) Ich erzdhlte spdter

diese Geschichte bei einem

Poetry-Slam in M|nchen, wo ich anschlie_end Sommertage noch mal zum

besten gab. Sabine

Zaplin, eine Jurorin und Journalistin, sagte in ihrem Kritikbeitrag:

"Das war die charmanteste

frauenfeindliche Geschichte, die ich je gehvrt habe." Den Slam habe ich

dann nat|rlich gewonnen.

Diese Begebenheit mvchte ich irgendwannmal zu einer Story verheizen, und

so kann ich euch jetzt

nicht verraten, da_ ich damals in der Literaten-Runde einen kleinen

Kreislaufkolaps erlitt - nach

einem unmd_igen Kaffeekonsum (ca 25 Tassen). Selbstverstdndlich nahm der

gute Max an, ich

sei wegen seiner Kritik umgekippt. So komme ich hier in Deutschland zu

meinem

Schriftstellerruf. Seit meiner Begegnung mit Max druckt |brigens

Literatur und Kritik nichts mehr

von mir: Meine Texte seien den Redakteuren zu larmoyant. Aber jetzt

zur|ck zu Cocksucker. \ber

die gewissenhaften Mdnner, |ber diese Gerechten, die gegen uns,

Sexisten, kdmpfen, kvnnte auch

Olli Bopp Bdnde f|llen.

 

In Cocksucker Nr. 13 packte mich gleich Olli Bopps Intro Social Beat?

Wunderbar und... traurig.

Olli schrieb: "In Frankfurt gab es plvtzlich Lesungen von Autoren, deren

Namen in der Szene nie

gefallen haben. Unter der Social Beat Flagge versuchten sich da Autoren

einer ganz anderen

Richtung (experimentell, dadaistisch) ein St|ck vom Medienkuchen

abzuschneiden." Social Beat in

Gefahr! Doch dort, wo die Satten jammern, lebt Underground von Hoffnung.

Seine Abrechnung

beendete Olli mit: "Wir haben uns gefunden und finden uns - suchen wir

unsere Leser. Viel Spa_ mit

alten und neuen Namen des wahren Social Beat."

 

Cocksucker Nr. 14 mit dem wunderbaren Umschlag. Auf den Photos einige

der neuen Wilden, der

Social-Beat-Propheten: Jvrg Andri Dahlmayer, Robsie Richter, Oliver

Bopp, Roland Adelmann

(|brigens alles Gute zu dem Schritt der Schritte, Roland!), Kersten

Flenter, Caroline Hartge, Jvrg

Gvtterwind, Hardy Kr|ger, Dagi Bernhard, Hermann J. Borgerding, Thorsten

Nesch, Ingo Lahr,

Grobylin Marlowe und selbstverstdndlich auch dabei - Hellmuth Karasek.

 

Vor mir liegt jetzt das vorldufig letzte Cocksucker-Heft, Nr. 15. Statt

eines Vorwortes begr|_t uns

Olli mit einer Collage aus Zeitungsschnippseln - manchmal reicht es

wirklich, auf das Elend nur mit

dem Finger zu zeigen - Schlagzeilen: Sparma_nahmen bei Sozialschwachen

kontra Didtenerhvhung

bei Abgeordneten. Weiter im Heft schon traditionell Hartmuths Kolumne

(Hartmuth Malorny) mit

seinem poetischen Lob "blitzernder frvhlicher Kronkorken waagerecht

gestapelter Bierflaschen."

 

Auf Seite 5 nimmt Olli Bopp Abschied von Biby Wintjes. Wie sonst als mit

einer Story: Ollis erste

Begegnung mit Biby. Und ich hatte dich nur am Telefon erleben kvnnen,

Biby, zum letzten Mal einen

Tag bevor das Arschloch Tod dich uns wegnahm.

 

Bah! Endlich kann ich wieder mal eine Geschichte von dem guten alten

Ruhrpott Rodney, Roland

Adelmann, lesen: Als mein guter Ruf auf dem Spiel stand. Man liest, man

lacht, und man fragt

sich, zum wievielten Mal schon: Wieso schnappen sich die gro_en Verlage

nicht diese Leute? Ein

Buch mit solchen Geschichten w|rde ich mir doch sofort kaufen!

 

Weiter im Cocksucker Nr. 15: Hartmuth Malorny schreibt |ber Herbert

Huncke, ein wie

immer gutes Gedicht von Kersten Flenter und eine feine Story von

Grobilyn Marlowe. Aber das ist

bei weitem nicht alles. Doch ich mu_ Schlu_ machen, wie leid es mir auch

tut. Da wird Frank

Duwald schon sowieso die Gro_zehen verdrehen, wenn er diese Seiten sieht

- so ein dickes

Manuskript hat ihm noch keiner zukommen lassen. Eine Frechheit! Heute

habe ich von Frank mit der

Post Ozzy Osbornes CD A Diary of a Madman bekommen. Ja, ja - ein

Geschenk von Freund zu

Freund. Sicher doch! Aber vielleicht auch ein subtiler Wink: "Hey, Mann,

hvr jetzt auf mit dem

Tippen und mach mal was Ordentliches." Na, ja, so werde ich jetzt wohl

die Harddisc runterdrehen

und die Ozzy-CD rotieren lassen. Zumindest bis die Nachbarn die

Feuerwehr rufen.

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:14:39 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Geese]

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R. Bentz Kirby

Sent:   Sunday, November 02, 1997 8:37 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        [Fwd: Geese]

 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------164462545FB58CFD1A65CCC5

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi all:

 

When I wrote Geese and posted it, I copied Charles Plymell.  He in turn

sent to me this poem about a rabbit.  When the rabbit managed to run

between my front tires and clear the rear before they came along, I

thought of this poem.  That is why the most recent posting was dedicated

to Charles.  The undetermined point of view.  He gave me permission to

post this to complete the connection.  First Geese, then this, then my

rabbit poem.

 

Now, Charles also found something and would like to see if someone who

speaks this language, must be German or some similiar language to my

uneducated eye, can translate the last paragraph for him.  I am assuming

he means the one with Huncke in it.

 

http://www.fto.de/fthp/gassner/jk_mesdd2.html

 

I wrote and he replied in full:

 

Yes, your poem was my inspiration.

 

Also would you mind posting this site:

(http://www.fto.de/fthp/gassner/jk_mesdd2.html)

Pam found on the web to the list to see if someone could translate the

last

paragraph for me.

CP

 

If you can translate this and don't have Charles' address, please post

it to the list and there are several persons who will forward it to him.

And it is about Huncke, so it must be beat.  The paragraph also contains

the mention of Ozzy Osborne and other things that make it a unique

paragraph, that's for sure.  Uuuhhh, Charles, I do have the right link,

right?

:-)

 

I hope you enjoy the poem.  I found it to contain a lot in a little and

really like it.  It is black humor I guess, but a nice tidy piece of

work.

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

--------------164462545FB58CFD1A65CCC5

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Return-Path: <CVEditions@aol.com>

Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com ([198.81.11.45]) by mail.scsn.net

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          Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:14:39 -0400 (EDT)

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:14:39 -0400 (EDT)

From: CVEditions@aol.com

Message-ID: <971019161211_1368518968@emout19.mail.aol.com>

To: bocelts@scsn.net

Subject: Re: Geese

 

I saw a rabbit road killed today

darting into time and space

the guts left of a view undetermined

cp

 

 

--------------164462545FB58CFD1A65CCC5--

I'm confused, is Plymell black? I am not familiar with his work;

why do you think it is black humor?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:52:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sylvanna Vanderpark <SylvannaV@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Every 20 years

 

well, here in toronto, we celebrate the 80's already....Retro 80's is a

popular theme at clubs....it's wierd to be so nostalgiac about my childhood

so soon....

 

sylvanna

 

I look around and I've waited, waited

I look around and I've waited for this

 

 

<< the 70's it was 50's music.  In the 80's it was 60's and now disco,

 70's is the fad.  Hmmmm, think what it will be like next time when

 they get the 80's around again.  Or what about in the next when they

 look back to the 90's for the cool stuff.  You are making it now.  It

 is hard to see the big picture. " Right here right now, there is no

 other place I'd rather be.  Right here right now. "

 

 --

 

 Peace,

 

 Bentz

 bocelts@scsn.net

 http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

  >>

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:11:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  <971104130631_410822766@emout06.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

For clarification purposes, I am not speaking for Generation X. I'm after

that generation...

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:03:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      thanks for the responses (what would kerouac think...)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hey folks,

        well thanks for all of your insights on the topic that i posted a

few days ago. I didn't want some of you to personally attack one another

over it but i found it amazing to take my short post and turn it into

something that everyone had an opinion on. As a conclusion, i would like

to say that i enjoy reading about the Beats and anyone who was here

before me. Learning from them makes me a better and "armed"

person who can go up against a cold society.   But i still can't accept

the 90s as being anything worth wild with things such as "woodstock 96"

and terrible angst-ridden poetry from the likes of Henry Rollins. These

are just two little examples that i can defend my opinion on.

        Well, have a good day an watch out for banality. :)

                                                        jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:44:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sad Enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>

Subject:      yes yes

Comments: To: donlee@comp.uark.edu

 

ummm what's be here now all about?  and why am i doing that?    i want to see

pull my daisy but i have to look around for it i think.  umm i got a reject

thing saying my post didn't make it to the list but then you repsonded to my

post, so ummm how does that work out in the big picture?

 

   <3

 

           chad

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:56:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: generation x

 

This whole "Gen X/What would Kerouac think?" discussion has me feeling a bit

mixed --- I am both bored & peeved. It almost seems that an argument is being

forced in order to get off the whole Estate-debate. I agree with Nancy that

the "current" generation of young 'uns (myself included)  are doing a lot of

good and are  helping progress our future in many ways not attempted from

past generations. However -- we are forgetting one thing: we learn from the

past. Life is trial & error. Without the mistakes of the past we would

neither HAVE some of the current problems we experience (such as

environmental disasters, world misuse) nor would we have any ANSWERS TO THE

PROBLEMS. You see, in every generation there's a bunch of folks making a mess

and an equal amount of folks both cleaning up their peers' spilt milk glasses

AND configuring ways to prevent it in the future.

 

It's quite silly to be so damned general when referring to a generation ---

while I'm out there doing 10+ hours of AIDS volunteer work a week and working

with the developmentally disabled (I'm playing "Glenda the Good Witch" here),

on the left hand, there's my little sister hanging out with gang-bangers,

thinkin' bout drive-by's and never once has she lifted he hand in a good hard

day's work (she's the "Wicked Witch" you see).... She's 21, I'm 23. Point is,

generalizations are asinine. Firing off pissy remarks at older folks is

asinine. This discussion is asinine. I'm a fool for taking part. ---- But I'm

young, I'm jaded. Therefore I'm allowed <said with smirk>

 

 

Starfishes & Kisses,

L

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:28:39 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      of Generations and whatnot

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

somedays when the wind gusts across

the Kansas prairie

several hundred generations can pass through

my numbed mind

before the morning coffee is sipped.

 

other days, a single generation

may last several thousand years

amidst an afternoon siesta

 

amazing sometimes

that we are so easily distracted

distracted

        distracted and some distraught

by our biological ages

our placement in

        this era

        this generation

                not that

oh that i could have lived in Ancient Egypt

that would be hip

but you have lived in Ancient Egypt

oh yeah, i forgot

got trapped in that

biological name my generation angst blues

 

am i in your generation

sometimes

am i in my generation

sometimes

am i even i let alone

we we

 

time for one of those siestas david

not yet i just woke up

oh yeah - maybe coffee will help

where was i

 

generations

oh

older and younger

that old age gap twisting brains

Eisenhower evil or still President in my mind

i was so much older than i'm younger than that now

 

this morning i feel a good 98 or so

yesterday had a brief period of 900

today maybe jump backwards

following Merlin through time's mist

and spend an hour or two as

a twenty-somethinger to see how it fits.

 

sad sometimes that our connectedness

gets bracketed by numbers

on a paper called a birth certificate.

 

traditions - are they generational?

depends on which ones i suppose

it's all been done somewhere between

Abilene and Ur

on a windy morning

or a dark and stormy night

 

Snoopy kicks me away from the keyboard

to type an opus

to the sad corporatism of the Dilbert generation

 

have fun snoop.

 

morning all.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:04:08 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: of Generations and whatnot

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

David, really enjoyed the poem, thought a little generational

sandwich about youth and traveling might be appropriate.

p

 

   Sweet sixteen

Huddled under a bridge,

cold fanged breeze

strip teasing comfort from my back.

Small green knive nestling

in the boot.

 

Beside the highway, frozen then

diving headfirst through barbed wire

to miss the adminastrations of the father of 6.

Taking a right to the jaw thought I

heard a phone rang.

 

gentle trails of vomit,

eyes spinning,

life before me

a spector of choice.

Where is my direction.

 

patricia

 

RACE --- wrote:

> 

> somedays when the wind gusts across

> the Kansas prairie

> several hundred generations can pass through

> my numbed mind

> before the morning coffee is sipped.

> 

> other days, a single generation

> may last several thousand years

> amidst an afternoon siesta

> 

> amazing sometimes

> that we are so easily distracted

> distracted

>         distracted and some distraught

> by our biological ages

> our placement in

>         this era

>         this generation

>                 not that

> oh that i could have lived in Ancient Egypt

> that would be hip

> but you have lived in Ancient Egypt

> oh yeah, i forgot

> got trapped in that

> biological name my generation angst blues

> 

> am i in your generation

> sometimes

> am i in my generation

> sometimes

> am i even i let alone

> we we

> 

> time for one of those siestas david

> not yet i just woke up

> oh yeah - maybe coffee will help

> where was i

> 

> generations

> oh

> older and younger

> that old age gap twisting brains

> Eisenhower evil or still President in my mind

> i was so much older than i'm younger than that now

> 

> this morning i feel a good 98 or so

> yesterday had a brief period of 900

> today maybe jump backwards

> following Merlin through time's mist

> and spend an hour or two as

> a twenty-somethinger to see how it fits.

> 

> sad sometimes that our connectedness

> gets bracketed by numbers

> on a paper called a birth certificate.

> 

> traditions - are they generational?

> depends on which ones i suppose

> it's all been done somewhere between

> Abilene and Ur

> on a windy morning

> or a dark and stormy night

> 

> Snoopy kicks me away from the keyboard

> to type an opus

> to the sad corporatism of the Dilbert generation

> 

> have fun snoop.

> 

> morning all.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:04:18 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: do ya ever...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> >

> > walk down streets with ears wide open, ears most acute sense by blocking

> > just enough for safety the other senses,

> > and hear the two guys way up the hill arguing whose fieldstone wall is

> > the sturdiest, the wet and crinkly leaves underfoot have different

> > sounds, moms talking to toddlers out of still open windows a particular

> > muffler problem that had grown into the background of white noise in my

> > room becomes a real car in need, don't look at the car to make

> > judgements just listening listeneing to geese overhead, smaller birds

> > still out on the wires, squirrels squabbling...

> > do ya ever do that, anyone?

> > mc

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:47:45 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: of Generations and whatnot

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> David, really enjoyed the poem, thought a little generational

> sandwich about youth and traveling might be appropriate.

> p

> 

enjoyed the sandwich - quite a breakfast.  your tale tells so much and

so much of it exploding out from between the lines, the words, the

letters, <my jaw hurts a bit - perhaps sympathy pains but no auditory

visions of phones yet>  i've obviously lived such a sheltered

life....mental travels instead of real ones.  fewer scars on my body

that way.  scars on my brain? oh well, there is that <grin>

 

just returned from filling station with strawberry kiwi gatorade.

Dilbert great social commentary.  Charlie Brown story of my life.  Ziggy

provided food for my sandwich.  It is a dim and dreary drizzling

morning....the weather not even up for a dark and stormy night.

 

>    Sweet sixteen

> Huddled under a bridge,

> cold fanged breeze

> strip teasing comfort from my back.

> Small green knive nestling

> in the boot.

> 

> Beside the highway, frozen then

> diving headfirst through barbed wire

> to miss the adminastrations of the father of 6.

> Taking a right to the jaw thought I

> heard a phone rang.

> 

> gentle trails of vomit,

> eyes spinning,

> life before me

> a spector of choice.

> Where is my direction.

> 

> patricia

> 

> RACE --- wrote:

> >

> > somedays when the wind gusts across

> > the Kansas prairie

> > several hundred generations can pass through

> > my numbed mind

> > before the morning coffee is sipped.

> >

> > other days, a single generation

> > may last several thousand years

> > amidst an afternoon siesta

> >

> > amazing sometimes

> > that we are so easily distracted

> > distracted

> >         distracted and some distraught

> > by our biological ages

> > our placement in

> >         this era

> >         this generation

> >                 not that

> > oh that i could have lived in Ancient Egypt

> > that would be hip

> > but you have lived in Ancient Egypt

> > oh yeah, i forgot

> > got trapped in that

> > biological name my generation angst blues

> >

> > am i in your generation

> > sometimes

> > am i in my generation

> > sometimes

> > am i even i let alone

> > we we

> >

> > time for one of those siestas david

> > not yet i just woke up

> > oh yeah - maybe coffee will help

> > where was i

> >

> > generations

> > oh

> > older and younger

> > that old age gap twisting brains

> > Eisenhower evil or still President in my mind

> > i was so much older than i'm younger than that now

> >

> > this morning i feel a good 98 or so

> > yesterday had a brief period of 900

> > today maybe jump backwards

> > following Merlin through time's mist

> > and spend an hour or two as

> > a twenty-somethinger to see how it fits.

> >

> > sad sometimes that our connectedness

> > gets bracketed by numbers

> > on a paper called a birth certificate.

> >

> > traditions - are they generational?

> > depends on which ones i suppose

> > it's all been done somewhere between

> > Abilene and Ur

> > on a windy morning

> > or a dark and stormy night

> >

> > Snoopy kicks me away from the keyboard

> > to type an opus

> > to the sad corporatism of the Dilbert generation

> >

> > have fun snoop.

> >

> > morning all.

> >

> > david rhaesa

> > salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:14:47 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: of Generations and whatnot

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

RACE --- wrote:

> 

> Patricia Elliott wrote:

> >

> > David, really enjoyed the poem, thought a little generational

> > sandwich about youth and traveling might be appropriate.

> > p

> >

> enjoyed the sandwich - quite a breakfast.  your tale tells so much and

> so much of it exploding out from between the lines, the words, the

> letters, <my jaw hurts a bit - perhaps sympathy pains but no auditory

> visions of phones yet>  i've obviously lived such a sheltered

> life....mental travels instead of real ones.  fewer scars on my body

> that way.  scars on my brain? oh well, there is that <grin>

> 

> just returned from filling station with strawberry kiwi gatorade.

> Dilbert great social commentary.  Charlie Brown story of my life.  Ziggy

> provided food for my sandwich.  It is a dim and dreary drizzling

> morning....the weather not even up for a dark and stormy night.

> 

dilbert seems so alarming because it rings so true.  It seems that there

is no quest for good left in our bones sometimes, that we are laughing

at our failure. but this may be too early in the morning for me.  by

afternoon and one warm moment in the sunbeam by the window, i may

completely rejuvinate and now that love conquers all.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:26:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: of Generations and whatnot

 

good morning David!

thanks for this. to put it plainly you kick ass. (now if that didn't sound

generational...) anyway, strangely enough i really need a cup of coffee....

take it easy,

~~marlene

 

In a message dated 97-11-05 09:48:54 EST, you write:

 

<< somedays when the wind gusts across

 the Kansas prairie

 several hundred generations can pass through

 my numbed mind

 before the morning coffee is sipped.

 

 other days, a single generation

 may last several thousand years

 amidst an afternoon siesta

 

 amazing sometimes

 that we are so easily distracted

 distracted

         distracted and some distraught

 by our biological ages

 our placement in

         this era

         this generation

                 not that

 oh that i could have lived in Ancient Egypt

 that would be hip

 but you have lived in Ancient Egypt

 oh yeah, i forgot

 got trapped in that

 biological name my generation angst blues

 

 am i in your generation

 sometimes

 am i in my generation

 sometimes

 am i even i let alone

 we we

 

 time for one of those siestas david

 not yet i just woke up

 oh yeah - maybe coffee will help

 where was i

 

 generations

 oh

 older and younger

 that old age gap twisting brains

 Eisenhower evil or still President in my mind

 i was so much older than i'm younger than that now

 

 this morning i feel a good 98 or so

 yesterday had a brief period of 900

 today maybe jump backwards

 following Merlin through time's mist

 and spend an hour or two as

 a twenty-somethinger to see how it fits.

 

 sad sometimes that our connectedness

 gets bracketed by numbers

 on a paper called a birth certificate.

 

 traditions - are they generational?

 depends on which ones i suppose

 it's all been done somewhere between

 Abilene and Ur

 on a windy morning

 or a dark and stormy night

 

 Snoopy kicks me away from the keyboard

 to type an opus

 to the sad corporatism of the Dilbert generation

 

 have fun snoop.

 

 morning all.

 

 david rhaesa

 salina, Kansas >>

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:18:18 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      the_arts_show.doomed_love_.html (fwd)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

beat-L'ers

i pulled this offa TIME's site - it should be in the new time magazine as

well (the one with greenspan on the cover) as well - does anyone else out

there know anything about the rumors of HST writing an ongoing column for

TIME?

thanks

derek

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:24:17 -0700

Subject: the_arts_show.doomed_love_.html

 

   [1][LINK] [2][LINK] [3]General Motors [4][ISMAP]

   [5]TIME Logo

   THE ARTS/SHOW BUSINESS NOVEMBER 10, 1997 VOL. 150 NO. 20

     _________________________________________________________________

 

 

   DOOMED LOVE AT THE TACO STAND

 

   FEAR AND LOATHING IN HOLLYWOOD

 

   BY HUNTER S. THOMPSON

 

     _________________________________________________________________

 

 

   TIME asked HUNTER S. THOMPSON, a former copyboy here who went on to an

   even more exciting career as a gonzo journalist, to report from the

   set of the movie being made of his 1971 book, Fear and Loathing in Las

   Vegas, in which Johnny Depp plays Thompson and the author appears in a

   cameo role. Thompson, who this year published a volume of collected

   letters called The Proud Highway, ended up taking Depp's car and

   checkbook on a romantic adventure. Fasten your seat belts...

 

   Oct. 11th (HOLLYWOOD)

 

   Going to Hollywood is a dangerous high-pressure gig for most people,

   under any circumstances. It is like pumping hot steam into thousands

   of different-size boilers. The laws of physics mandate that some will

   explode before others--although all of them will explode sooner or

   later unless somebody cuts off the steam.

 

   I love steam myself, and I have learned to survive under savage and

   unnatural pressures. I am a steam freak. Hollywood is chicken feed to

   me. I can take it or leave it. I have been here before, many times. On

   some days it seems like I have lived at the Chateau Marmont for half

   my life. There is blood on these walls, and some of it is mine. Last

   night I sliced off the tips of two fingers and bled so profusely in

   the elevator that they had to take it out of service.

 

   But nobody complained. I am not just liked at the Chateau, I am

   well-liked. I have important people thrown out or black-listed on a

   whim. Nobody from the Schwarzenegger organization, for instance, can

   even get a drink at the Chateau. They are verboten. There is a ghastly

   political factor in doing any business with Hollywood. You can't get

   by without five or six personal staff people--and at least one

   personal astrologer.

 

   I have always hated astrologers, and I like to have sport with them.

   They are harmless quacks in the main, but some of them get ambitious

   and turn predatory, especially in Hollywood. In Venice Beach I ran

   into a man who claimed to be Johnny Depp's astrologer. "I consult with

   him constantly," he told me. "We are never far away. I have many

   famous clients." He produced a yellow business card and gave it to me.

   "I can do things for you," he said. "I am a player."

 

   I took his card and examined it carefully for a moment, as if I

   couldn't quite read the small print. But I knew he was lying, so I

   leaned toward him and slapped him sharply in the nuts. Not hard, but

   very quickly, using the back of my hand and my fingers like a

   bullwhip, yet very discreetly.

 

   He let out a hiss and went limp, unable to speak or breathe. I smiled

   casually and kept on talking to him as if nothing had happened. "You

   filthy little creep," I said to him. "I am Johnny Depp!"

 

   Outside on the boulevard I saw a half-naked young girl on roller

   skates being mauled by two huge dogs. They were Great Danes,

   apparently running loose. Both had their paws on her shoulder, and the

   gray one had her head in its mouth. But there was no noise, and nobody

   seemed to notice.

 

   I grabbed a fork off the bar and rushed outside to help her, giving

   the bogus astrologer another slap in the nuts on my way out. When I

   got to the street, the dogs were still mauling the girl. I stabbed the

   big one in the ribs with my fork, which sank deep into the tissue. The

   beast yelped crazily and ran off with its tail between its legs. The

   other one quickly released its grip on the girl's head and snarled at

   me. I slashed at it with the fork, and that was enough for the brute.

   It backed off and slunk away toward Muscle Beach.

 

   I took the girl back to the Buffalo Club and applied aloe to her

   wounds. The astrologer was gone, and we had the lounge to ourselves.

   Her name was Heidi, she said, and she had just arrived in L.A. to seek

   work as a dancer. It was the third time in 10 days she'd been attacked

   by wild dogs on the Venice boardwalk, and she was ready to quit L.A.,

   and so was I. The pace was getting to me. I was not bored, and I still

   had work to do, but it was definitely time to get out of town. I had

   to be in Big Sur in three days, and then to a medical conference in

   Pebble Beach. She was a very pretty girl, about 30, with elegant legs

   and a wicked kind of intelligence about her, but she was also very

   naive about Hollywood. I saw at once that she would be extremely

   helpful on my trip north.

 

   I listened to her for a while, then I offered her a job as my

   assistant, which I badly needed. She accepted, and we drove back to

   the Chateau in Depp's Porsche. As we pulled up the ramp to the

   underground garage, the attendants backed off and signaled me in.

   Depp's henchmen had left word that nobody could touch the car except

   me. I parked it expertly, barely missing a red BMW 840Ci, and we went

   up the elevator to my suite.

 

   I reached for my checkbook, but it was missing, so I used one of

   Depp's that I'd found in the glove compartment of his car. I wrote her

   a healthy advance and signed Depp's name to it. "What the hell?" I

   said to her. "He's running around out there with my checkbook right

   now, probably racking up all kinds of bills."

 

   That was the tone of my workdays in Hollywood: violence, joy and

   constant Mexican music. At one club I played the bass recorder for

   several hours with the band. We spent a lot of time drinking gin and

   lemonade on the balcony, entertaining movie people and the ever

   present scribe from Rolling Stone magazine...

 

   You bet, bubba, I was taking care of business. It was like the Too

   Much Fun Club. I had the Cadillac and a green Mustang in the garage,

   in addition to the Carerra 4 Porsche, but we could only drive one of

   them up the coast. It was an uptown problem.

 

   Depp, meanwhile, was driving around town in my car, the Red Shark, and

   passing himself off as me. It was part of the movie, he said, but it

   gave me the creeps.

 

   Finally it got to be too much, so we loaded up the Northstar Cadillac

   and fled. Why not? I thought. The girl had proved to be a tremendous

   help, and besides, I was beginning to like her.

 

   Oct. 12th (PISMO BEACH)

 

   The sun was going down as we left Malibu and headed north on 101,

   running smoothly through Oxnard and along the ocean to Santa Barbara.

   My companion was a little nervous about my speed, so I gave her some

   gin to calm her down. Soon she relaxed against me, and I put my arm

   around her. Roseanne Cash was on the radio, singing about the

   seven-year ache, and the traffic was opening up.

 

   As we approached the Lompoc exit, I mentioned that Lompoc was the site

   of a federal penitentiary and I once had some friends over there.

 

   "Oh?" she said. "Who were they?"

 

   "Prisoners," I said. "Nothing serious. That's where Ed was."

 

   She stiffened and moved away from me, but I turned up the music and we

   settled back to drive and watch the moon come up. What the hell? I

   thought. Just another young couple on the road to the American Dream.

 

   Things started to get weird when I noticed Pismo Beach coming up. I

   was on the cell phone with Benicio del Toro, the famous Puerto Rican

   actor, telling him about the time I was violently jailed in Pismo

   Beach and how it was making me nervous to even pass a road sign with

   that name on it. "Yeah," I was saying, "it was horrible. They beat me

   on the back of my legs. It was a case of mistaken identity." I smiled

   at my assistant, not wanting to alarm her, but I saw that she was

   going into a fetal crouch and her fingers were clutching the straps of

   her seat belt.

 

   Just then we passed two police cars parked on the side of the road,

   and I saw that we were going a hundred and three.

 

   "Slow down!" Heidi was screaming. "Slow down! We'll be arrested. I

   can't stand it!" She was sobbing and clawing at the air.

 

   "Nonsense," I said. "Those were not police. My radar didn't go off." I

   reached over to pat her on the arm, but she bit me and I had to pull

   over. The only exit led to a dangerous-looking section of Pismo Beach,

   but I took it anyway.

 

   It was just about midnight when we parked under the streetlight in

   front of the empty Mexican place on Main Street. Heidi was having a

   nervous breakdown. There was too much talk about jails and police and

   prisons, she said. She felt like she was already in chains.

 

   I left the car in a crosswalk and hurried inside to get a taco. The

   girl behind the register warned me to get my car off the street

   because the police were about to swoop down on the gang of thugs

   milling around in front of the taco place. "They just had a fight with

   the cops," she said. "Now I'm afraid somebody is going to get killed."

 

 

   We were parked right behind the doomed mob, so I hurried out to roust

   Heidi and move the car to safety. Then we went back inside very gently

   and sat down in a booth at the rear of the room. I put my arm around

   Heidi and tried to calm her down. She wanted gin, and luckily I still

   had a pint flask full of it in my fleece-lined jacket pocket. She

   drank greedily, then fell back in the booth and grinned. "Well, so

   much for that," she chirped. "I guess I really went crazy, didn't I?"

 

   "Yes," I said. "You were out of control. It was like dealing with a

   vampire."

 

   She smiled and grasped my thigh. "I am a vampire," she said. "We have

   many a mile to go before we sleep. I am hungry."

 

   "Indeed," I said. "We will have to fill up on tacos before we go any

   farther. I too am extremely hungry."

 

   Just then the waitress arrived to take our order. The mob of young

   Chicanos outside had disappeared very suddenly, roaring off into the

   night in a brace of white pickup trucks. They were a good-natured

   bunch, mainly teenagers with huge shoulders wearing Dallas Cowboys

   jerseys and heads like half-shaved coconuts. They were not afraid of

   the cops, but they left anyway.

 

   The waitress was hugely relieved. "Thank God," she said. "Now Manuel

   can live one more night. I was afraid they would kill him. We have

   only been married three weeks." She began sobbing, and I could see she

   was about to crack. I introduced myself as Johnny Depp, but I saw the

   name meant nothing to her. Her name was Maria. She was 17 years old

   and had lied about her age to get the job. She was the manager and

   Manuel was the cook. He was almost 21. Every night strange men hovered

   around the taco stand and mumbled about killing him.

 

   Maria sat down in the booth between us, and we both put our arms

   around her. She shuddered and collapsed against Heidi, kissing her

   gently on the cheek. "Don't worry," I said. "Nobody is going to be

   killed tonight. This is the night of the full moon. Some people will

   die tonight, but not us. I am protected."

 

   Which was true. I am a Triple Moon Child, and tonight was the Hunter's

   Moon. I pulled the waitress closer to me and spoke soothingly. "You

   have nothing to fear, little one," I told her. "No power on earth can

   harm me tonight. I walk with the King."

 

   She smiled and kissed me gratefully on my wrist. Manuel stared

   balefully at us from his perch in the kitchen, saying nothing. "Rest

   easy," I called out to him. "Nobody is going to kill you tonight."

 

   "Stop saying that!" Heidi snapped, as Manuel sunk further into

   himself. "Can't you see he's afraid?" Maria began crying again, but I

   jerked her to her feet. "Get a grip on yourself," I said sharply. "We

   need more beer and some pork tacos to go. I have to drive the whole

   coast tonight."

 

   "That's right," said my companion. "We're on a honeymoon trip. We're

   in a hurry." She laughed and reached for my wallet. "Come on, big

   boy," she cooed. "Don't try to cheat. Just give it to me."

 

   "Watch yourself," I snarled, slapping her hand away from my pocket.

   "You've been acting weird ever since we left L.A. We'll be in serious

   trouble if you go sideways on me again."

 

   She grinned and stretched her arms lazily above her head, poking her

   elegant little breasts up in the air at me like some memory from an

   old Marilyn Monroe calendar and rolling her palms in the air.

 

   "Sideways?" she said. "What difference does it make? Let's get out of

   here. We're late."

 

   I paid the bill quickly and watched Maria disappear into the kitchen.

   Manuel was nowhere in sight. Just as I stepped into the street, I

   noticed two police cars coming at us from different directions. Then

   another one slowed down right in front of the taco stand.

 

   "Don't worry," I said to Heidi. "They're not looking for us."

 

   I seized her by the leg and rushed her into the Cadillac. There was a

   lot of yelling as we pulled away through the circling traffic and back

   out onto Highway 101.

 

   My mind was very much on my work as we sped north along the coast to

   Big Sur. We were into open country now, running straight up the coast

   about a mile from the ocean on a two-lane blacktop road across the

   dunes with no clouds in the sky and a full moon blazing down on the

   Pacific. It was a perfect night to be driving a fast car on an empty

   road along the edge of the ocean with a half-mad beautiful woman

   asleep on the white leather seats and Lyle Lovett crooning doggerel

   about screwheads who go out to sea with shotguns and ponies in small

   rowboats just to get some kind of warped revenge on a white man with

   bad habits who was only trying to do them a favor in the first place.

 

   You bet. My mind was wandering, thinking about Lyle. I was just with

   him in Hollywood. We both had roles in my movie, but Lyle had a

   trailer and I didn't. I had to settle for half of Depp's trailer,

   along with his C4 Porsche and his wig, so I could look more like

   myself when I drove around Beverly Hills and stared at people when we

   rolled to a halt at stoplights on Rodeo Drive.

 

   Oct. 13th (BIG SUR)

 

   I lost control of the Cadillac about halfway down the slope. The road

   was slick with pine needles, and the eucalyptus trees were getting

   closer together. The girl laughed as I tried to aim the car through

   the darkness with huge tree trunks looming up in the headlights and

   the bright white moon on the ocean out in front of us. It was like

   driving on ice, going straight toward the abyss.

 

   We shot past a darkened house and past a parked Jeep, then crashed

   into a waterfall high above the sea. I got out of the car and sat down

   on a rock, then lit up the marijuana pipe. "Well," I said to Heidi,

   "this is it. We must have taken a wrong turn."

 

   She laughed and sucked on some moss. Then she sat down across from me

   on a log. "You're funny," she said. "You're very strange--and you

   don't know why, do you?"

 

   I shook my head softly and drank some gin.

 

   "No," I said. "I'm stupid."

 

   "It's because you have the soul of a teenage girl in the body of an

   elderly dope fiend," she whispered. "That is why you have problems."

   She patted me on the knee. "Yes. That is why people giggle with fear

   every time you come into a room. That is why you rescued me from those

   dogs in Venice."

 

   I stared out to sea and said nothing for a while. But somehow I knew

   she was right. Yes sir, I said slowly to myself, I have the soul of a

   teenage girl in the body of an elderly dope fiend. No wonder they

   can't understand me.

 

   This is a hard dollar, on most days, and not many people can stand it.

   Indeed. If the greatest mania of all is passion: and if I am a natural

   slave to passion: and if the balance between my brain and my soul and

   my body is as wild and delicate as the skin of a Ming vase--

 

   Well, that explains a lot of things, doesn't it? We need look no

   further. Yes sir, and people wonder why I seem to look at them

   strangely. Or why my personal etiquette often seems makeshift and

   contradictory, even clinically insane... Hell, I don't miss those

   whispers, those soft groans of fear when I enter a civilized room. I

   know what they're thinking, and I know exactly why. They are extremely

   uncomfortable with the idea that I am a teenage girl trapped in the

   body of a 60-year-old career criminal who has already died 16 times.

   Sixteen, all documented. I have been crushed and beaten and shocked

   and drowned and poisoned and stabbed and shot and smothered and set on

   fire by my own bombs...

 

   All these things have happened, and probably they will happen again. I

   have learned a few tricks along the way, a few random skills and

   simple avoidance techniques--but mainly it has been luck, I think, and

   a keen attention to karma, along with my natural girlish charm.

 

   (To be continued.)

 

   [6]The Gonzo Faxes: Correspondence from the edge.

     _________________________________________________________________

 

   [7]time-webmaster@pathfinder.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:31:03 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

 

quite frankly, i think every generation has to deal with more or less the same

stresses.  certain generations have had them a little tougher than others -

the gen-x'ers being one of them.  the focus shifts. in the 50's it was the

ostrich-head-in-the-sand mentality and ultra-repression of emotional and

sexual issues which the youth of that generation broke through.  in the 70's

apathy become the desired stance, after trying so hard in the 60's to change

things and the war.  in the 80's it was reaction to extremes of the 60's and

70's, so conservatism won out (much to my horror).

 

there are no manuals for life.  beat is beat.  it stands because those things

which fundamentally define beat are timeless.  although the prevalence of such

thought may wane, it never dies and when the social climate gets too extreme

many people turn to these truths/values to anchor them amidst the turmoil.

beat would be dead and meaningless if it didn't evolve.  it can evolve because

it embraces some of the deepest truths of the human soul.  of course, this is

just my humble opinion.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Alex Howard

Sent:   Tuesday, November 04, 1997 8:15 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: what would Kerouac think....

 

> I beg to differ. I think that my generation is amazing. A lot of people

> have misconceptions about us because of the media but most of us are doinf

> good stuff.

 

What I mean is that I don't see this generation as particularly unique (as

a whole I mean).  This is the first one to come of age completely in the

trench of post-modernism (which is in itself unique), but as the

post-modern world is unique, there is difficulty finding a way of dealing

with it.  The hippies, the beatniks, the beats, the lost generation had

specific and logical ways to deal with the world as it presented itself at

that time.  Post-modernism has led to such a mish-mash of culture and

ideas, looking to the past as a reaction to the anxious present in an

attempt to understand everything that has become and is becoming of

culture and society there is not _distinct_ way in which this generation

has come upon to deal with and understand this era.  I'm not saying there

aren't a lot of worthwhile people and things happening (although I wonder

sometimes when I look around), I'm just saying that has yet a particular

reaction or distinguishing characteristic to emerge.  I do, however, see

great potential as American culture has just in this century become

distinguishable (or begun to be distinguishable) from European culture and

traditions.  Once post-modernism becomes something that can be understood

in about 20 or 30 years, it may be an incredibly important time in

cultural history.  I think that American culture since the turn of the

century will become quite important to bring about that coalescence and

the Beats in particular are a pivitol point in that development.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:51:19 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:31:03 UT from

              <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:31:03 UT Sherri said:

>quite frankly, i think every generation has to deal with more or less the same

>stresses.  certain generations have had them a little tougher than others -

>the gen-x'ers being one of them.  the focus shifts. in the 50's it was the

>ostrich-head-in-the-sand mentality and ultra-repression of emotional and

>sexual issues which the youth of that generation broke through.  in the 70's

>apathy become the desired stance, after trying so hard in the 60's to change

>things and the war.  in the 80's it was reaction to extremes of the 60's and

>70's, so conservatism won out (much to my horror).

> 

>there are no manuals for life.  beat is beat.  it stands because those things

>which fundamentally define beat are timeless.  although the prevalence of such

>thought may wane, it never dies and when the social climate gets too extreme

>many people turn to these truths/values to anchor them amidst the turmoil.

>beat would be dead and meaningless if it didn't evolve.  it can evolve because

>it embraces some of the deepest truths of the human soul.  of course, this is

>just my humble opinion.

> 

>ciao,

>sherri

> 

>----------

>From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Alex Howard

>Sent:   Tuesday, November 04, 1997 8:15 AM

>To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:        Re: what would Kerouac think....

> 

>> I beg to differ. I think that my generation is amazing. A lot of people

>> have misconceptions about us because of the media but most of us are doinf

>> good stuff.

> 

>What I mean is that I don't see this generation as particularly unique (as

>a whole I mean).  This is the first one to come of age completely in the

>trench of post-modernism (which is in itself unique), but as the

>post-modern world is unique, there is difficulty finding a way of dealing

>with it.  The hippies, the beatniks, the beats, the lost generation had

>specific and logical ways to deal with the world as it presented itself at

>that time.  Post-modernism has led to such a mish-mash of culture and

>ideas, looking to the past as a reaction to the anxious present in an

>attempt to understand everything that has become and is becoming of

>culture and society there is not _distinct_ way in which this generation

>has come upon to deal with and understand this era.  I'm not saying there

>aren't a lot of worthwhile people and things happening (although I wonder

>sometimes when I look around), I'm just saying that has yet a particular

>reaction or distinguishing characteristic to emerge.  I do, however, see

>great potential as American culture has just in this century become

>distinguishable (or begun to be distinguishable) from European culture and

>traditions.  Once post-modernism becomes something that can be understood

>in about 20 or 30 years, it may be an incredibly important time in

>cultural history.  I think that American culture since the turn of the

>century will become quite important to bring about that coalescence and

>the Beats in particular are a pivitol point in that development.

 

 

Ah!  but now there IS a manual for BEAT life:  it's called "The Beat Spirit."

It's a kind of self-help book aimed at "generation xers" who are drawn to the l

iives and works of the Beat Generation.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:13:55 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

Comments: To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@interbit.cren.net>

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997110515543945@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Where can one get this book THE BEAT SPIRIT?

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

 

"I make art about the misunderstandings that take place at the

border zone, but for me, the border is no longer at any fixed

geopolitical site. I carry the border with me, and I find new

borders, wherever I go."

                               --Guillermo Gomez-Pena

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:57:51 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: wsb and stephen king?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:28:01 -0500 PoOka(the friendly ghost)

wrote:

 

> From: PoOka(the friendly ghost) <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:28:01 -0500

> Subject: wsb and stephen king?

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> hey folks,

>         let me say that i have never read any of the Dark

Tower books by

> Stephen King but its very strange to see a similarity

between the

> gunslinger in King's book and Burrough's Kim Carson in the

Western

> Lands/Place of Dead Roads/Cities of the Red Night series.

Any thoughts on

> this or am i just overdosing on M@Ms?

 

I think it's quite possible that many people have been

influenced by WSB without even realising it.  Besides which,

Kim Carson as gunslinger isn't exactly a completely new type

of image.  Miles makes several claims for Burroughs'

influence on culture in his autobiography, some which seemed

quite spurious at the time that I read it, but I can't

remember now.  Anyone seen the credit to WSB in Blade

Runner?

Incidently, I'm writing an essay on the erotic in Burroughs

now for Monday.  Anyone got any thoughts?  Is sex in WSB

erotic, or just cold, clinical and scientefic.  Do you

believe the claim that its Swiftean satire on capital

punishment, or is that WSB trying get get away from

prosecution for obscentity?  Are there links between

Ginsberg's use of explicit language (eg Sunflower Sutra,

half-way through - text not in front of me) and WSB's?  Is

WSB only trying to shock, or is there more to it?

 

Anwsers on a postcard to...

(and to those who say not to help students, the answer is

simple... DON'T!  I'm fine on my own, but I'd be interested

to discuss it.)

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"A Bear of Very Little Brain"

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:00:46 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Remember Guy Fawkes!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

The fifth of Novemeber... probably doesn't mean much to the

Americans on the list, but to us Brits... it doesn't really

mean much either!  But I like to think that Guy Fawkes was

perhaps one of the first to strike a blow for freedom of the

individual in this country.

I think WSB would have appreciated Guido too.  Maybe he did

(I sorta remember him saying something about it.)

Anyhow, happy Bonfire Night!

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"That's it, I'm done, stick a fork in me."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:08:51 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997110515543945@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:31:03 UT Sherri said:

> >quite frankly, i think every generation has to deal with more or less the

 same

> >stresses.  certain generations have had them a little tougher than others -

> >the gen-x'ers being one of them.  the focus shifts. in the 50's it was the

> >ostrich-head-in-the-sand mentality and ultra-repression of emotional and

> >sexual issues which the youth of that generation broke through.  in the 70's

> >apathy become the desired stance, after trying so hard in the 60's to change

> >things and the war.  in the 80's it was reaction to extremes of the 60's and

> >70's, so conservatism won out (much to my horror).

> >

> >there are no manuals for life.  beat is beat.  it stands because those things

> >which fundamentally define beat are timeless.  although the prevalence of

 such

> >thought may wane, it never dies and when the social climate gets too extreme

> >many people turn to these truths/values to anchor them amidst the turmoil.

> >beat would be dead and meaningless if it didn't evolve.  it can evolve

 because

> >it embraces some of the deepest truths of the human soul.  of course, this is

> >just my humble opinion.

> >

> >ciao,

> >sherri

> >

> >----------

> >From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Alex Howard

> >Sent:   Tuesday, November 04, 1997 8:15 AM

> >To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> >Subject:        Re: what would Kerouac think....

> >

> >> I beg to differ. I think that my generation is amazing. A lot of people

> >> have misconceptions about us because of the media but most of us are doinf

> >> good stuff.

> >

> >What I mean is that I don't see this generation as particularly unique (as

> >a whole I mean).  This is the first one to come of age completely in the

> >trench of post-modernism (which is in itself unique), but as the

> >post-modern world is unique, there is difficulty finding a way of dealing

> >with it.  The hippies, the beatniks, the beats, the lost generation had

> >specific and logical ways to deal with the world as it presented itself at

> >that time.  Post-modernism has led to such a mish-mash of culture and

> >ideas, looking to the past as a reaction to the anxious present in an

> >attempt to understand everything that has become and is becoming of

> >culture and society there is not _distinct_ way in which this generation

> >has come upon to deal with and understand this era.  I'm not saying there

> >aren't a lot of worthwhile people and things happening (although I wonder

> >sometimes when I look around), I'm just saying that has yet a particular

> >reaction or distinguishing characteristic to emerge.  I do, however, see

> >great potential as American culture has just in this century become

> >distinguishable (or begun to be distinguishable) from European culture and

> >traditions.  Once post-modernism becomes something that can be understood

> >in about 20 or 30 years, it may be an incredibly important time in

> >cultural history.  I think that American culture since the turn of the

> >century will become quite important to bring about that coalescence and

> >the Beats in particular are a pivitol point in that development.

> 

> 

> Ah!  but now there IS a manual for BEAT life:  it's called "The Beat Spirit."

> It's a kind of self-help book aimed at "generation xers" who are drawn to the

 l

> iives and works of the Beat Generation.

> 

-----question: i just got a copy of this book as a

gift, but it didnt look sincere - maybe it was just

the cover or the bongos on some of the pages, but i

would like to know if this is a serious endeavor.  if

its just a game for people who have nothing better to

do and are tired of self-help books, ill ignore it.

but if this has some serious merit, ill be glad to

give it a read.  ive flipped through some of the

exercizes - some are quite odd - but all in all im not

so sure, so i thought id ask someone who knows.

(strange coincidence that you happened to mention it

now...)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:23:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: generation x

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>This whole "Gen X/What would Kerouac think?" discussion has me feeling

>a bit

>mixed --- I am both bored & peeved. It almost seems that an argument is

>being

>forced in order to get off the whole Estate-debate.

 

     I think that, in this discussion, there is a misconception about

what gen x is.  it's not the young generation now, it isn't defined by

age; gen x is more an "attitude," an inability to categorize oneself

within any one generational tendency.  dig what i'm saying?  that's why

it's gen X, x is the unknown variable in a manner of speaking.  That

sound right?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:14:40 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: wsb and stephen king?

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Tom Harberd wrote:

is there more to it?

> 

> Anwsers on a postcard to...

> (and to those who say not to help students, the answer is

> simple... DON'T!  I'm fine on my own, but I'd be interested

> to discuss it.)

> 

> Tom. H.

> http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

> "A Bear of Very Little Brain"

 

ah, a chance to clarify, i never said nor did i hear anyone say , not to

help students, i just said that i resented being considered a free

source. I am not on this list to be a help to someone who prefers not to

think enough to ask a good question,  different matter entirely.

 i love a good question, dislike general questions.  student questions,

or life student questions all the same merit to me.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:44:38 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

 

marie - laughing my head off!  you have the most perfect timing!!  ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marie Countryman

Sent:   Tuesday, November 04, 1997 8:46 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: what would Kerouac think....

 

ok all you pikers posers weasels and whiners

i have consulted with my alter personality, who in another life was a

therapist.

half of you should walk as weirdly as possible to monty python's arguement

clinic do not wait a moment, asap mon cheris!

the rest go stand and rot in the verbal abuse clinic.

there now.

any one with newly diagnosed prostrate problems?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:47:08 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: of Generations and whatnot

 

Patricia -  thank you.  quite a poem!1

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Patricia Elliott

Sent:   Wednesday, November 05, 1997 8:04 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: of Generations and whatnot

 

David, really enjoyed the poem, thought a little generational

sandwich about youth and traveling might be appropriate.

p

 

   Sweet sixteen

Huddled under a bridge,

cold fanged breeze

strip teasing comfort from my back.

Small green knive nestling

in the boot.

 

Beside the highway, frozen then

diving headfirst through barbed wire

to miss the adminastrations of the father of 6.

Taking a right to the jaw thought I

heard a phone rang.

 

gentle trails of vomit,

eyes spinning,

life before me

a spector of choice.

Where is my direction.

 

patricia

 

RACE --- wrote:

> 

> somedays when the wind gusts across

> the Kansas prairie

> several hundred generations can pass through

> my numbed mind

> before the morning coffee is sipped.

> 

> other days, a single generation

> may last several thousand years

> amidst an afternoon siesta

> 

> amazing sometimes

> that we are so easily distracted

> distracted

>         distracted and some distraught

> by our biological ages

> our placement in

>         this era

>         this generation

>                 not that

> oh that i could have lived in Ancient Egypt

> that would be hip

> but you have lived in Ancient Egypt

> oh yeah, i forgot

> got trapped in that

> biological name my generation angst blues

> 

> am i in your generation

> sometimes

> am i in my generation

> sometimes

> am i even i let alone

> we we

> 

> time for one of those siestas david

> not yet i just woke up

> oh yeah - maybe coffee will help

> where was i

> 

> generations

> oh

> older and younger

> that old age gap twisting brains

> Eisenhower evil or still President in my mind

> i was so much older than i'm younger than that now

> 

> this morning i feel a good 98 or so

> yesterday had a brief period of 900

> today maybe jump backwards

> following Merlin through time's mist

> and spend an hour or two as

> a twenty-somethinger to see how it fits.

> 

> sad sometimes that our connectedness

> gets bracketed by numbers

> on a paper called a birth certificate.

> 

> traditions - are they generational?

> depends on which ones i suppose

> it's all been done somewhere between

> Abilene and Ur

> on a windy morning

> or a dark and stormy night

> 

> Snoopy kicks me away from the keyboard

> to type an opus

> to the sad corporatism of the Dilbert generation

> 

> have fun snoop.

> 

> morning all.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:58:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

 

We've got BEAT SPIRIT in stock.  There are a number of other new Beat items

available now too... books, videos and a new Kerouac/Cassady T-Shirt which is

pretty cool (the picture taken by Carolyn Cassady that graces the cover of

THE FIRST THIRD).

 

Our new Christmas Catalog is ready to ship next week.  E-mail your snail mail

address or visit our website (www.kerouac.com) or call 1-800-KER-OUAC or fax

(408)-372-1860.

 

Jerry Cimino

Fog City Facts & Fiction

P.O. Box 48

Monterey, CA  93942

1-800-KER-OUAC

www.kerouac.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:58:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: generation x

 

Tyson,

 

I was always under the impression Gen X (as commonly used) referred

specifically to a certain age category.  Your "insert X as a variable

component" and the idea that X is an attitude is a nifty thought, but I don't

think most people view it that way.  Most people see the Volkswagen

commercial - "Duh Duh Duh".

 

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:22:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Remember Guy Fawkes!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

"A penny for the old guy!"

 

 

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:00:46 BST Tom Harberd

<T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK> wrote:

 

> The fifth of Novemeber... probably doesn't mean much to the

> Americans on the list, but to us Brits... it doesn't really

> mean much either!  But I like to think that Guy Fawkes was

> perhaps one of the first to strike a blow for freedom of the

> individual in this country.

> I think WSB would have appreciated Guido too.  Maybe he did

> (I sorta remember him saying something about it.)

> Anyhow, happy Bonfire Night!

> 

> Tom. H.

> http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

> "That's it, I'm done, stick a fork in me."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:28:45 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Remember Guy Fawkes!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

> 

> "A penny for the old guy!"

> 

> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:00:46 BST Tom Harberd

> <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK> wrote:

> 

> > The fifth of Novemeber... probably doesn't mean much to the

> > Americans on the list, but to us Brits... it doesn't really

> > mean much either!  But I like to think that Guy Fawkes was

> > perhaps one of the first to strike a blow for freedom of the

> > individual in this country.

> > I think WSB would have appreciated Guido too.  Maybe he did

> > (I sorta remember him saying something about it.)

> > Anyhow, happy Bonfire Night!

> >

> > Tom. H.

> > http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

> > "That's it, I'm done, stick a fork in me."

 

GF day is also the day in the book "Mary Poppins Opens the Door".  (a

beat classic <grin>)

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:17:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: generation x

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>I was always under the impression Gen X (as commonly used) referred

>specifically to a certain age category.  Your "insert X as a variable

>component" and the idea that X is an attitude is a nifty thought, but I

>don't

>think most people view it that way.  Most people see the Volkswagen

>commercial - "Duh Duh Duh".

 

     that commercial, btw, is the essence of my generation.. kudos to

the brains at VW

     what i said was always mt understanding of generation x, i mean,

it doesn't make much sense to call my generation gen x...  that seems

to be the common conception... i'd like to know who coined the phrase

and the context in which it was used.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:19:17 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: generation x

In-Reply-To:  <msg1179387.thr-d644050f.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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The phrase 'Generation X' comes from the novel (same name....). The name

of the author escapes me (Brett Easton Ellis??) It was an extremely

popular book in the late 80's-early 90's.  I guess this guy singlehandedly

"invented" the whole concept of gen x.

Anne Sneddon

 

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >I was always under the impression Gen X (as commonly used) referred

> >specifically to a certain age category.  Your "insert X as a variable

> >component" and the idea that X is an attitude is a nifty thought, but I

> >don't

> >think most people view it that way.  Most people see the Volkswagen

> >commercial - "Duh Duh Duh".

> 

>      that commercial, btw, is the essence of my generation.. kudos to

> the brains at VW

>      what i said was always mt understanding of generation x, i mean,

> it doesn't make much sense to call my generation gen x...  that seems

> to be the common conception... i'd like to know who coined the phrase

> and the context in which it was used.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:07:06 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Dharma for breakfast!

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EMPTINESS OF TASTE

        What do Cornflakes & Sugar taste to the wooden bowl? It is only an

arbitrary conception of my solitary taste-organ, my tongue, this "taste"

of Cornflakes & Sugar, the "taste" has no substantiality of existence

outside of my tongue and its taste-mind and its taste-mind...Where does

taste come from? If it came from the tongue only, it wouldnt come from

the cornflakes, then how could you taste cornflakes instead of dry

leaves? If it came from the cornflakes only, how would the tongue tell?

If it came from both, this consciousness of taste, from both tongue and

cornflakes, then where's the dividing line of this split-up

consciousness and where does this arbitrary line go when you're not

tasting anything at all?

 

SOME OF THE DHARMA (p.105)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:18:36 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      This Post Says Nothing About Gen X

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Probably nearly a year ago I remember a discussion which raised the

whole question of the relationship between the indigenous San Francisco

poetry scene and the New York Beats in the persons of JK and AG. San

Francisco and Berkeley in the 30-'s and 40's had a bohemia that was a

wonderful mixture of anarchism, pacificism, labor activism and

buddhism.  This was the mileu of Rexroth, Duncan, Lamantia,  Everson ,

Jack Spicer and others.  Reading David Meltzer's interviews with Rexroth

and Everson I was especially struck by Everson's succinct analysis of

this relationship.

> 

> William Everson- (Brother Antoninus)-

> 

>         That's why I always indentified with the Beat Generation--the point

> you're making just now.  I'd never let any negative aura around the beat

> image deter me from the primacy of that fact.  It put poetry back on

> the platform.  We had been trying for a whole decade to get something

> like the Beat Generation going.  We tried it back in the late forties

> with Rexroth, and were sucessful enough to get attacked in "Harpers" as

> "The New Cult of Sex and Anarchy."  But the nation as a whole wasn't

> ready for it, what with the postwar preoccupation and the cold-war

> freeze.  It took Korea and the second Eisenhower administration to make

> the country ready.  It took the man in the gray flannel suit as the

> national image and the crew cut as the prevailing college mode.  The

> tranquilzed fifties.  I remember that Life magazine titled its big

> feature on the beats "The Only Rebellion Around," almost begging for

> dissent.  Now they've got their belly full of it.

> 

>         As I say, out here in SF we were ready for it long before the rest of

> the country, but we couldn't have pulled it off alone.  It took something

> outside ourselves, something from the East Coast to make a true

> "conjuntio oppositorium":, a conjunctionof the opposites.  As it turned out

> Allen Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac provided the ingredients.  They came

> out to San Franciusco and found themselves, and it was their finding

> that sparked us.  Without them it would never have happened.

> 

 

J. Stauffer

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:09:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: generation x

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971105221715.12066A-100000@pioneer.nevada.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

As far as I know it was Douglas Copeland's books written in the early to

mid eighties.  I think it comes from the one entitled Generation X, though

that may be based on something from his earlier stuff, I'm not

knowledgeable on his dates of publication.  Though people my age

(younger/older) who are stuck in this thing may like to think they're

something special, they're not.  No more than any other and a lot less

that some others, its just a unique time and the first generation to grow

up in and under the influence of a cultural trend that is so wacky it

doesn't have a real name.  It is a generational label not "an attitude".

That's baloney (nothing personal).  Its because this generation hasn't any

sweeping characteristics or attitudes that it has expressed as a whole.

The only thing common is that there is nothing common, hence the variable

label "x".

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:23:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: generation x

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971105221715.12066A-100000@pioneer.nevada.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Wasn't "Generation X" written by Douglas Coupland of Shampoo Planet fame?

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:35:28 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:08:51 -0800 from <donahujl@BC.EDU>

 

I think the "Beat Spirit" is a sincere effort and there's no question

that the author knows and understands the works of Burroughs, Ginsberg,

Kerouac and the other authors he draws on.  The bibliographies he

includes are up-to-date and useful.  Nevertheless, a book of this type

seems somewhat of a pradox to me given the Beat Generation's stree on

spontaneity and originality.  Can you strengthen and celebrate your

uniqueness and individuality by following a blueprint?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:36:48 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: what would Kerouac think....

 

Blueprints are mere guidelines at best.  ask any architect or contractor how

many times blueprints have had to be redrawn for one reason or another during

the construction of a building.

 

i don't know the book, but maybe it's just someone's attempt to explain what

they generally conceive of as Beat qualities?

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Bill Gargan

Sent:   Thursday, November 06, 1997 6:35 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: what would Kerouac think....

 

I think the "Beat Spirit" is a sincere effort and there's no question

that the author knows and understands the works of Burroughs, Ginsberg,

Kerouac and the other authors he draws on.  The bibliographies he

includes are up-to-date and useful.  Nevertheless, a book of this type

seems somewhat of a pradox to me given the Beat Generation's stree on

spontaneity and originality.  Can you strengthen and celebrate your

uniqueness and individuality by following a blueprint?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:44:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      The highway's calling....

 

Dear friends,

well, i'm off this weekend and i'm thrilled about it. just thought i'd let

the list know how happy i am to be hitting the pavement in just a few hours.

my sister and i are driving up to pensacola for the weekend. it should be a

real good time. just wanted to let you all know in case anyone would need me.

BTW, Marie, the money's in the mail, and Gerry, the t-shirts arrived safe and

sound. I love them! Okay, have a wondeful weekend kiddos. Take it easy,

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:22:39 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: Jack "not fond" of homosexuals

Mime-Version: 1.0

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BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:

>     I wonder what gave you the impression that Jack wasn't fond of

>homosexuals.

 

He did say in On The Road that he used to wander around with a gun, and when

peeople came up to him in toilets he'd threaten them with it in case they were

homosexuals.

 

Tom. H.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:56:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: generation x

 

The author of the superslick superstupid superselling novel _Generation X_

was one Douglas Coupland.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:03:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: generation x

 

In a message dated 97-11-05 19:50:26 EST, Tyson writes:

 

<<     I think that, in this discussion, there is a misconception about

 what gen x is.  it's not the young generation now, it isn't defined by

 age; gen x is more an "attitude," an inability to categorize oneself

 within any one generational tendency.  dig what i'm saying?  that's why

 it's gen X, x is the unknown variable in a manner of speaking.  That

 sound right?

  >>

 

Agreed, completely with your comment Tyson. However, I see the whole tag

"GenX" as nothing more than the media's constant insatiable urge to

categorize.... I dunno, the whole thing bores me all to hell.  The term Gen X

comes originally not from Coupland's book but rather, 'twas the name of a

rather energetic (and quite good for its time) band headed by none other than

that snarling blondie Billy Idol -- hehe.  Let's all rent "Reality Bites" and

see our so-called lives lived out before us by those foxes Ethan Hawke &

Winona Ryder <wink wink>

 

 

Blah blah blah...

 

Kisses & Starfishes.

 

        "...and a . . . nurse, giving me a sleeping pill, says I can't sleep because

of a guilty conscience concerning the...Church; of course I can sleep, I want

free goofballs; of course I'm guilty, I'm after knowledge not salvation..."

Jack Kerouac

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:01:27 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Marcos L. Chavarri" <mlopez@EUROPAMC.COM>

Subject:      Was Burroghs really a killer?

Comments: cc: jvega@europamc.com

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Or it was simply an accident.

I say it for the dead of his wife...

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:30:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

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>Or it was simply an accident.

>I say it for the dead of his wife...

 

     accident.  despite bill being the most

morbid/dark/goth/borgesian/whathaveyou of the beat trinity, he wasn't

one that was out to harm anyone.  very private, living in general

seclusion most of his life, not making a lot of noise, just wanted to

be left to do his thing.  why would he purposely kill the one woman who

meant something to him sexually and spiritually?  no, bill was

inherently meek, joan's death was an accident.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:37:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: generation x

In-Reply-To:  <971106140330_784581927@mrin47>

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> Agreed, completely with your comment Tyson. However, I see the whole tag

> "GenX" as nothing more than the media's constant insatiable urge to

> categorize.

 

The media?  There have been generational lables and categories long

before.  The media didn't lable the Beats as "The Beat Generation", the

Beats themselves did.  Neither for the Lost Generation as well.  Also,

there are powerful, powerful arguements for gernerational study.  A great,

brilliant book called _Generations_ talks about their cyclical nature,

makes interesting and valid comparisons, and sheds a lot of light on how

society and age-categorized groups effect each other.

 

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:55:59 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      free goofballs

MIME-Version: 1.0

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hey, could you cite that quote.

 

thanks

 

 

> 

>         "...and a . . . nurse, giving me a sleeping pill, says I can't sleep

 because

> of a guilty conscience concerning the...Church; of course I can sleep, I want

> free goofballs; of course I'm guilty, I'm after knowledge not salvation..."

> Jack Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:47:35 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

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Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> 

> >Or it was simply an accident.

> >I say it for the dead of his wife...

> 

>      accident.  despite bill being the most

> morbid/dark/goth/borgesian/whathaveyou of the beat trinity, he wasn't

> one that was out to harm anyone.  very private, living in general

> seclusion most of his life, not making a lot of noise, just wanted to

> be left to do his thing.  why would he purposely kill the one woman who

> meant something to him sexually and spiritually?  no, bill was

> inherently meek, joan's death was an accident.

 

i would agree whole heartedly with this.  I would also strongly urge

anyone who hasn't read the preface to Queer, where he addresses the

subject, to do so. Incredibly moving and graphical baring. He was

remarkable in many ways.  When i first met william about 20 years ago, i

was touched by his true kindmess and caring, many people told me that he

hated women, and those people simply weren't near him..I was near and

close to him.  Knowing him i could quess what it was that led this man

to that moment and it was complex, something about obsession with

explosions and of moments, bone deep curiousity, alcohol, and i say

curiousity and experimentation .  He loved movement and action.  He was

lost in that moment of accidental time but i never felt that it was

anything but an accident.  I also felt he loved her.  I found him

incredibly unprejudiced in intelectual exchange with me, in ways that

many of my male acquiantance never have reached. He was more than

unprejudiced about women, he could discern the unacademic intellect, and

appreciate it.  Strangly enough that tragedy probably saved him, he

faced what had happend and while i would not go so far as to say he

forgave himself he seemed to have found himself, enough to write some of

the best things about life i had ever read. . Of all most anyone i ever

knew he was not prejudiced.  well he was't crazy about the english

social structure.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:31:43 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject:      another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971104123826.27489C-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

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        I believe an interesting question was posed a few days a go on the

list.  Will there ever be another Jack Kerouac?  Hmmm...I think literature

as a popular art form in America has really lost it's place, so i would

argue that although there certainly may be someone with Jack's talent,

they would not be elevated to Jack's status.  I think the poet/writer has

been replaced by the rock star/actor.  Film and music have replaced

literature as America's art form.  Jim Morrisson could be seen as the

succession to the Beats. The rock star (popular poet) replaced the

traditional poet.  Maybe the Beats were a bridge between music and

literature.  They were definitely into spoken word and performance.

Ginsberg wrote songs, so did McClure, so did Jack.

 

         Are there any popular writers out there now

to rival the popularity of the Beats?  Were the Beats even that popular?

Was Jack known EVERYWHERE he went like movie stars are today?  Even during

the Beats time, literature was being replaced by music--Elvis.  It seems

to me that Hemingway and Fitzgerald were BIG in the thirties/forties,

maybe the most popular artists in the US (not big on history personally,

anyone want to disagree with this statement?).  Even in their days, film

was getting bigger and bigger.

 

        Back to my original question:  Is it possible in America today for

one writer (or small group of writers) to set the nation on fire like Jack

and co. did?  I don't believe so.  There is almost too much talent around,

and there's not too many more barriers to cross so there is no spotlight

waiting for a single writer.  Has avant-guarde literature lost its place

in America?  and now all the intelligent young writers end up writing

screen plays or songs?  i hope not.

 

-matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:16:11 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.94.971106201602.53264A-100000@spnode02.tcs.tulane.edu>

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well, i have a few issues here.

first, dont look for another jack kerouac.  dont even

think about it.  not because the type of poet he was

was unique, but because he was not a prophet, and we

are not waiting for the second coming.  in other

words, if he comes, he will come.

second, i dont entirely agree with your notions of

american avant-guard poetry.  in many ways, its all

avant-guard (some of it too post-modern for its own

good, i think).  but you ignore a major class of

writers - the essayists.  many of todays finest

essayists have the grace and style of a poet, the

mastery of language of a novelist, and are also a very

unpopular class of artists in todays pop-literary

world.  read the essays.  a good start into them are

the best american essays collections, but by no means

stop there.  (remember, kerouac also wrote essays,

which you can read in good blonde and others.)

third, dont stop at rock stars, but also consider folk

artists, such as edie brickell, and also check out

rusted root (funk/folk band...very poetic, and some

even say beat, in a sense).

finally, dont sweat the loss of kerouac.  one of the

beauties of a great artists, thinker, and

metaphysician is the fact that he cant be follwed up

on - that he had something so unique as to always

remain with us, as did chaucer, blake, whitman, eliot,

and others who continue to wonder, amaze, and educate

us.  (and in this list i include pynchon, who has the

same singular genius found in all great writers - and

if you havent read him, do so - start w/ the crying of

lot 49, and then tackle gravitys rainbow...it will be

well worth the effort.)

in all, i dont find it an interesting question.  love

kerouac for what he did, not for what we may come to

expect from future writers.

peace, love, and good happiness stuff...

 

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Matthew S Sackmann wrote:

 

>         I believe an interesting question was posed a few days a go on the

> list.  Will there ever be another Jack Kerouac?  Hmmm...I think literature

> as a popular art form in America has really lost it's place, so i would

> argue that although there certainly may be someone with Jack's talent,

> they would not be elevated to Jack's status.  I think the poet/writer has

> been replaced by the rock star/actor.  Film and music have replaced

> literature as America's art form.  Jim Morrisson could be seen as the

> succession to the Beats. The rock star (popular poet) replaced the

> traditional poet.  Maybe the Beats were a bridge between music and

> literature.  They were definitely into spoken word and performance.

> Ginsberg wrote songs, so did McClure, so did Jack.

> 

>          Are there any popular writers out there now

> to rival the popularity of the Beats?  Were the Beats even that popular?

> Was Jack known EVERYWHERE he went like movie stars are today?  Even during

> the Beats time, literature was being replaced by music--Elvis.  It seems

> to me that Hemingway and Fitzgerald were BIG in the thirties/forties,

> maybe the most popular artists in the US (not big on history personally,

> anyone want to disagree with this statement?).  Even in their days, film

> was getting bigger and bigger.

> 

>         Back to my original question:  Is it possible in America today for

> one writer (or small group of writers) to set the nation on fire like Jack

> and co. did?  I don't believe so.  There is almost too much talent around,

> and there's not too many more barriers to cross so there is no spotlight

> waiting for a single writer.  Has avant-guarde literature lost its place

> in America?  and now all the intelligent young writers end up writing

> screen plays or songs?  i hope not.

> 

> -matt

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:28:27 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      hi

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hi

 

didja ever walk down the streets

of your neighborhood

with ears wide open,

quiet quietly

 

and hear the two guys up the hill arguing,

as usual, over whose fielstone wall is best

the sounds of wet leaves dry leaves

squishy and crackling

tugging at your nostrils to open just a bit more

to inhale

to savor

this autumnal fragrance

didya just stop

and

shut your eyes and all movement

and surfed the autumnal audio waves?

moms talking to toddlers wafting out of windows

still open to the night breeze

birds land on branches, branches creaking

the noise your feet make on the cement gritty sidwalk

 

a mufller problem

that to date had been just a part of my white noise

up here in my apartment

suddently becomes a

particular muffler patter

easily distinguished

 

real car, real driver, real muffler problem,

don=92t look

 

you know that car, it lives two houses over

 

the noises of living:

geese in formation overhead

smaller hardier winter northland birds

cheeping

and there up overhead, squirrels

squabble as i scribble

hey you guys, have any of you ever done that ?

...........anyone?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:32:51 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      yet again

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  Autumn insominiac Quartet

 

DAY FOUR

    IN SOMNIA

 

       for the fourth day

       in the fourth year

       up here in north country

    each autumn

       i dwell in the land of

       in Somnia.

 

       in Somnia,

       the rules change:

       clocks run backwards

       as

       fast as ahead

       and collide,

       like two perfectly balanced arrows

       two exquistely aimed arrorws

       meeting in mid flight -

 

    time

       collapses.

 

       i=92ve tried

       doctors

       pills!

      special pillows

      herbal remedies

       warm milk!

       relaxation, meditation

       chants!

       (and furtive readings from the =91self help=92

       corner of local bookstore )

 

       hell,

       i=92ve even taken to ale again

       as my corner store is a

       redemption center!

       redemption through ales!

       they=92ve told me they miss my bottles,

       and my pockets of change for replacements

       (hell,

       i think  when abstinent,

       they preyed for my redemption!)

 

       but,

       nothing changes.

       Until, 72 hours into

       black night slowly

       inching its way to dawn,

       i look out my window

       and

       see the first snow fall

       of autumn.

       i take this as an omen

       i take this as a vision

       i take this as a balm,

       and i thank the winds of change :

 

   with same disease as allen

       cooking in my body

       at times quiescent,

       other times raging,

        a life line without guarrentee

       a reminder of mortality,

 

       i

       suspect the gods are smiling on me

       giving me more time

       to store up against an early death

       so charged,

       writing always becomes electric,

       a force of its own :

       vowels

       consonants

       metaphors

       voices

    ring in my head,

 

       so i spend time with poets

       who would rather

       stay dead:

 

       Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

       (i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow your path),

 

      or that of ti Jean,

       Kerouac :

       it=92s a critical mass:

       one can drown in water, or in wine,

       nothing sublime about that.

 

       is it an affliction,

       these extra hours,

       dark, quiet, soft snow falling

 

       or gift?

       (these extra hours

       dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

 

       i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

       hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

 

       i=92m still awake

       when daybreak changes snow to rain

       snow washed away

       in to the rain

 

       i=92m still awake

 

       i=92m still awake

 

       i=92m still awake

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

1993

      lately i just keep waking

 

       lately i just keep waking alone

       in the black of night

       i breathe shallow i wear earphones

       not to wake you

 

not to wake you

       i breathe shallowly

       3 am 4 am

       mind wanders and stumbles

        stuck in the valley of consciousness

       black timelessness,

        i don=92t

       think of tomorrow, rather

       merge with the blackness

       listen to the burning

       fire

       in my ears,  break free      --the passions bursts! in my ears,

       and turning,

       turn up the volume on the

       sobbing stereo wailing

       i make my choice

       light the candle

       shed my

       clothes

       twirl on the balls of my

       feet and let

       my hips find their own rhythm

       scarf in hand,

      flung swirls, settles

       the lamp shadows cast,

       i dance to my anima,

       shadow cast

        i ride the fiddles

       in the midst of hurricane

       a halcyon dance.

 

       go away if it bothers you, in fact

       please go away.

       its the blackness you see

       the blackness and me

      everybody nobody knows about me

       nobody everybody

       knows about me

       the song

       the vigil

blackness

      energy

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

III

DAY FIVE

 

dance

 

    in camplight

    all others ringed round the fire asleep

    i steal the ceiling of stars, sleepless,

   needing a  blanket round shoulders

 

 i sit and bend towards fire

   sweat raises on shoulders

   firelight warmth

    sudden gust of cold, then icy fire:

    he appears

    my wolf, my angst, my chosen delusion

    if you will, my metaphor

 

    and the firelight

    turns to music

    sweat raises to shoulders

    and muscles obey

 

    running electric alive currents!

    (to all casual eyes

    i dance alone in the desert)

 

    oh please,

    oh please,

   - hear me hear out my story-

    because you were in it

    alive

you

 alive

     you

    who are you

    who are you

    my

     adversary?

    my brother?

   my killer?

    life giver?

 

who?

 

    and with all these questions burning in my brain

you can see why i then crave i sleep

 this question

    hounds me

    leading me round in circles

    to dream on

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

NIGHT SEVEN

    in dreamless nights

 

    in dreams, i remember flying over the old spartan homelands

   -the freedom

    -the altitiude

    -my shadow cast on the hillscapes-

feathers delineated in shadow shapes

     windspread wide and proud.

 

    i no longer dream of flying,

    i no longer dream at all.

 

    (I hail from the country of In Somnia

    I=92m only here to gather some ingredients:

    bane of darkness

    wort of light

    bones of a robin)

 

    [the condescending smile of an eye

     as i beg for help,

    condescending incomprehending eye]

 

    so rejected,

    i choose to stop such public presentations

    i choose to live here in my palace,

   peopled by imagination.

    who is to say which is which?

 corporeal or ethereal?

 

      laid awake for so many of my days

 the return to the land of  sleep

and the company of sleepers

an impossiblity

 

i pray for the dreamweavers

where i lie, invisible to the naked i

and yet.

and yet-

i see you coming in the darkness, dreamweaver

 

    i see you pick up this paper, blessed by tears and torn

    by desperations,

    i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh yes it does, so pliable,

    feel me,

    i=92m in your pocket

    i=92m here;

    you awaken....

 

  oct. 24-30, 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:40:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: hi

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Marie Countryman wrote:

>=20

> hi

>=20

> didja ever walk down the streets

> of your neighborhood

> with ears wide open,

> quiet quietly

>=20

> and hear the two guys up the hill arguing,

> as usual, over whose fielstone wall is best

> the sounds of wet leaves dry leaves

> squishy and crackling

> tugging at your nostrils to open just a bit more

> to inhale

> to savor

> this autumnal fragrance

> didya just stop

> and

> shut your eyes and all movement

> and surfed the autumnal audio waves?

> moms talking to toddlers wafting out of windows

> still open to the night breeze

> birds land on branches, branches creaking

> the noise your feet make on the cement gritty sidwalk

>=20

> a mufller problem

> that to date had been just a part of my white noise

> up here in my apartment

> suddently becomes a

> particular muffler patter

> easily distinguished

>=20

> real car, real driver, real muffler problem,

> don=92t look

>=20

> you know that car, it lives two houses over

>=20

> the noises of living:

> geese in formation overhead

> smaller hardier winter northland birds

> cheeping

> and there up overhead, squirrels

> squabble as i scribble

> hey you guys, have any of you ever done that ?

> ...........anyone?

 

i have now.  thanks a lot marie.....

 

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:52:52 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      whoops

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

sent the old version. many apologies.

  Autumn insominiac Quartet

 

DAY FOUR

    IN SOMNIA

 

       for the fourth day

       in the fourth year

       up here in north country

    each autumn

       i dwell in the land of

       in Somnia.

 

       in Somnia,

       the rules change:

       clocks run backwards

       as

       fast as ahead

       and collide,

       like two perfectly balanced arrows

       two exquistely aimed arrorws

       meeting in mid flight -

 

    time

       collapses.

 

       i=92ve tried

       doctors

       pills!

      special pillows

      herbal remedies

       warm milk!

       relaxation, meditation

       chants!

       (and furtive readings from the =91self help=92

       corner of local bookstore )

 

            nothing changes.

       except, fifty two hours into

       black night slowly

       inching its way to dawn,

       i look out my window

       and

       see the first snow fall

       of autumn.

       i take this as an omen:

  for

 

 

   with same disease as allen

       cooking in my body

       at times quiescent,

       other times raging,

        a life line without guarrentee

       a reminder of mortality,

 

       i

       suspect the gods are smiling on me

       giving me more time

       to store up against an early death

       so charged,

       writing always becomes electric,

       a force of its own :

       vowels

       consonants

       metaphors

       voices

    ring in my head,

 

       so i spend time with poets

       who would rather

       stay dead:

 

       Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

       (i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow your path),

 

      or that of ti Jean,

       Kerouac :

       it=92s a critical mass:

       one can drown in water, or in wine,

       nothing sublime about that.

 

       is it an affliction,

       these extra hours,

       dark, quiet, soft snow falling

 

       or gift?

       (these extra hours

       dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

 

       i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

       hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

 

       i=92m still awake

       when daybreak changes snow to rain

       snow washed away

       in to the rain

 

       i=92m still awake

 

       i=92m still awake

 

       i=92m still awake

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

1993

      lately i just keep waking

 

       lately i just keep waking alone

       in the black of night

       i breathe shallow i wear earphones

       not to wake you

 

not to wake you

       i breathe shallowly

       3 am 4 am

       mind wanders and stumbles

        stuck in the valley of consciousness

       black timelessness,

        i don=92t

       think of tomorrow, rather

       merge with the blackness

       listen to the burning

       fire

       in my ears,  break free      --the passions bursts! in my ears,

       and turning,

       turn up the volume on the

       sobbing stereo wailing

       i make my choice

       light the candle

       shed my

       clothes

       twirl on the balls of my

       feet and let

       my hips find their own rhythm

       scarf in hand,

      flung swirls, settles

       the lamp shadows cast,

       i dance to my anima,

       shadow cast

        i ride the fiddles

       in the midst of hurricane

       a halcyon dance.

 

       go away if it bothers you, in fact

       please go away.

       its the blackness you see

       the blackness and me

      everybody nobody knows about me

       nobody everybody

       knows about me

       the song

       the vigil

blackness

      energy

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

III

DAY FIVE

 

dance

 

    in camplight

    all others ringed round the fire asleep

    i steal the ceiling of stars, sleepless,

cold and  needing a  blanket around my shoulders,

 

 i sit and bend towards fire

   sweat raises on shoulders

   firelight warmth

    sudden gust of cold, then icy fire:

    he appears

    my wolf, my angst, my chosen delusion

    if you will, my metaphor

 

    and the firelight

    turns to music

    sweat raises to shoulders

    and muscles obey

 

    running electric alive currents!

    (to all casual eyes

    i dance alone in the desert)

 

    oh please,

    oh please,

   - hear me hear out my story-

    because you were in it

    alive

you

 alive

     you

    who are you

    who are you

    my

     adversary?

    my brother?

   my killer?

    life giver?

 

who?

 

    and with all these questions burning in my brain

you can see why i then crave i sleep

 this question

    hounds me

    leading me round in circles

    to dream on

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

NIGHT SEVEN

    in dreamless nights

 

    in dreams, i remember flying over the old spartan homelands

   -the freedom

    -the altitiude

    -my shadow cast on the hillscapes-

feathers delineated in shadow shapes

     windspread wide and proud.

 

    i no longer dream of flying,

    i no longer dream at all.

 

    (I hail from the country of In Somnia

    I=92m only here to gather some ingredients:

    bane of darkness

    wort of light

    bones of a robin)

 

    [the condescending smile of an eye

     as i beg for help,

    condescending incomprehending eye]

 

    so rejected,

    i choose to stop such public presentations

    i choose to live here in my palace,

   peopled by imagination.

    who is to say which is which?

 corporeal or ethereal?

 

      laid awake for so many of my days

 the return to the land of  sleep

and the company of sleepers

an impossiblity

 

i pray for the dreamweavers

where i lie, invisible to the naked i

and yet.

and yet-

i see you coming in the darkness, dreamweaver

 

    i see you pick up this paper, blessed by tears and torn

    by desperations,

    i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh yes it does, so pliable,

    feel me,

    i=92m in your pocket

    i=92m here;

    you awaken....

 

  oct. 24-30, 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:15:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Wrong is so final

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Wrong is so Final in the World Wide Web

 

Wrong is so final in the World Wide Web,

Wrong timing, wrong file attached, wrong version,

Wrong key, wrong button, wrong address,

And it is gone forever into flame bait world.

Gone forever into newbie world.

Gone forever into cyber space, with

A hint of red on our cyber space.

 

It is like a tounge at a party,

A word you wish to overtake and eat

Before any ear it should ever meet.

A something that is from your head,

And you wish it could return,

And it does,

Just not in the way you had planned.

 

Cyber space is so final,

Especially when it is the

Wrong button, the wrong file, or the wrong poem.

 

Hey, don't worry about it,

It happens to us all.

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:02:57 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Patricia

 

You are such a gem. I am not speaking of your poetry right now. I am

speaking of how you give definition to the word true friend. A true

friend is not one who would overlook and color in things to make the

friend look "better". A true friend loves their friend enough to know

them as much as only a true friend can, and accepts them for what they

are. A true friend can explain a person better than any objectified

scholarship tries to do. A true friend wants to explain their friends to

others who would like to know more about them in a way that they come

out of the shadows of various possibilities. So many of the questions

that seem to linger after explanations by remote scholarly

interpretations are finally fully answered by the integrity and true

friendship that you share with us.

Your true friendship enlightens us about the wonderful human being

William S. Burroughs was and the mistakes that he made in living his

very human life. With your help I know him better too.

 

leon

 

>From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

>Subject:      Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>Tyson Ouellette wrote:

>> 

>> >Or it was simply an accident.

>> >I say it for the dead of his wife...

>> 

>>      accident.  despite bill being the most

>> morbid/dark/goth/borgesian/whathaveyou of the beat trinity, he wasn't

>> one that was out to harm anyone.  very private, living in general

>> seclusion most of his life, not making a lot of noise, just wanted to

>> be left to do his thing.  why would he purposely kill the one woman

who

>> meant something to him sexually and spiritually?  no, bill was

>> inherently meek, joan's death was an accident.

> 

>i would agree whole heartedly with this.  I would also strongly urge

>anyone who hasn't read the preface to Queer, where he addresses the

>subject, to do so. Incredibly moving and graphical baring. He was

>remarkable in many ways.  When i first met william about 20 years ago,

i

>was touched by his true kindmess and caring, many people told me that

he

>hated women, and those people simply weren't near him..I was near and

>close to him.  Knowing him i could quess what it was that led this man

>to that moment and it was complex, something about obsession with

>explosions and of moments, bone deep curiousity, alcohol, and i say

>curiousity and experimentation .  He loved movement and action.  He was

>lost in that moment of accidental time but i never felt that it was

>anything but an accident.  I also felt he loved her.  I found him

>incredibly unprejudiced in intelectual exchange with me, in ways that

>many of my male acquiantance never have reached. He was more than

>unprejudiced about women, he could discern the unacademic intellect,

and

>appreciate it.  Strangly enough that tragedy probably saved him, he

>faced what had happend and while i would not go so far as to say he

>forgave himself he seemed to have found himself, enough to write some

of

>the best things about life i had ever read. . Of all most anyone i ever

>knew he was not prejudiced.  well he was't crazy about the english

>social structure.

>p

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:36:24 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

> Patricia

> 

> You are such a gem. I am not speaking of your poetry right now. I am

> speaking of how you give definition to the word true friend. A true

> friend is not one who would overlook and color in things to make the

> friend look "better". A true friend loves their friend enough to know

> them as much as only a true friend can, and accepts them for what they

> are. A true friend can explain a person better than any objectified

> scholarship tries to do. A true friend wants to explain their friends to

Leon, thank you for your words, it does give me an excuse to say, in

many ways i have no business answering what william felt.  I did know

him but he had  many friends, closer and for longer than me. I am more

than an imperfect recorder of even my impressions.  And i don't think i

should be so free with my impressions and feelings as i have been. I

mean this, i think it took about a tenth of williams attention to keep

up a conversation with me.  I know I honestly loved him and I know he

honestly cared for me, but I am not sure that i saw much more than the

iceberg. the part i did see was fascinating and consistant. I am sure

of a few things, and just as sure i am wrong about some of the things i

am sure about.

gosh that was fun.

good night.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:57:23 -0500

Reply-To:     dh383@freenet.carleton.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Laurie Fuhr <dh383@FREENET.CARLETON.CA>

Subject:      In Somnia..

 

        Ah!  I've been to that land, in fact I'm in Somnia right now and

having just read only the second List since i joined.. wow.  I'm going to

have to stick around.  All the poetry I've read has been fantastic, and

the discussions are interesting, and the personal stories.. wow.  You guys

have a good thing going here, and I'm glad to be a part of it.  I'm

learning already :)

 

        So I'd like to ask this question, just to get my bearings, because

I have a few stagnant misconceptions about Beat and want to see how you

guys feel.

 

        Is the Beat Movement over?  I mean, the Calaberos have passed

on, their literature is timeless in itself, but.. are we, by studying it

and writing our own beat-inspired pieces and talking about it carrying the

movement forward on a much smaller scale?  Or is this all just a history

discussion?  The poetry I've read makes me wonder.  There are probably

many and varied answers to this question, but..

 

What say youse?

 

Laurie. :)

 

 

"feathers hit the ground before the weight can leave the air buy the sky

and sell the sky and teach the sky and tell the sky don't fall on me.."

--the R.E.M. song currently playing on tv..

 

 

 

 

--

* R e c o v e r i n g *     "..she said,

*  -= t   h   e =-    *        'I don't need to be an angel, but I'm

* S a t e l l i t e s *              n o t h i n g

* * counting  crows * *                 if I'm not this high.."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:18:31 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Marcos L. Chavarri" <mlopez@EUROPAMC.COM>

Subject:      Be-Bop: music of the beats

Comments: cc: jvega%EUROPAM@europamc.com

Mime-Version: 1.0

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I think that we are wrong if we try to imitate the way of life of the b=

eats

through the music.

I think that generation X and the grunge is shit. Because first was the=

 

grunge and then was the generation X.

I think that beat generation was a crew of guys who fought by their dre=

ams

as we do. And music is the support to help us.

I think that I got a problem bacause I don=B4t have music to help my li=

fe

come true.

Can somebody help me?

Marcos L. Ch=E1varri

=

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:41:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Be-Bop: music of the beats

In-Reply-To:  <C1256548.002BAEEE.00@europamc-web1.europamc.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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On the contrary. Music was very prevalent in the whole Beat Movement and

I'm not even talking about Bob Dylan. Kerouac was very into jazz blues,

Charlie Parker and all those people. Ginsberg made his own music with that

thingie he had....( Sorry..I dont know what its called and Ive never

actually seen it. My mom told me about it.) Music is everywhere and in

everything.

 

 

On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Marcos L. Chavarri wrote:

 

> I think that we are wrong if we try to imitate the way of life of the bea=

ts

> through the music.

> I think that generation X and the grunge is shit. Because first was the

> grunge and then was the generation X.

> I think that beat generation was a crew of guys who fought by their dream=

s

> as we do. And music is the support to help us.

> I think that I got a problem bacause I don=B4t have music to help my life

> come true.

> Can somebody help me?

> Marcos L. Ch=E1varri

>=20

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:57:33 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

thanks to leon for saying what he said about what you said. patricia in the

last few months, wsb has become 'william' in a very human and real way. no

shadows in your posts.

mc

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

 

> Patricia

> 

> You are such a gem. I am not speaking of your poetry right now. I am

> speaking of how you give definition to the word true friend. A true

> friend is not one who would overlook and color in things to make the

> friend look "better". A true friend loves their friend enough to know

> them as much as only a true friend can, and accepts them for what they

> are. A true friend can explain a person better than any objectified

> scholarship tries to do. A true friend wants to explain their friends to

> others who would like to know more about them in a way that they come

> out of the shadows of various possibilities. So many of the questions

> that seem to linger after explanations by remote scholarly

> interpretations are finally fully answered by the integrity and true

> friendship that you share with us.

> Your true friendship enlightens us about the wonderful human being

> William S. Burroughs was and the mistakes that he made in living his

> very human life. With your help I know him better too.

> 

> leon

> 

> >From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

> >Subject:      Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

> >To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> >

> >Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> >>

> >> >Or it was simply an accident.

> >> >I say it for the dead of his wife...

> >>

> >>      accident.  despite bill being the most

> >> morbid/dark/goth/borgesian/whathaveyou of the beat trinity, he wasn't

> >> one that was out to harm anyone.  very private, living in general

> >> seclusion most of his life, not making a lot of noise, just wanted to

> >> be left to do his thing.  why would he purposely kill the one woman

> who

> >> meant something to him sexually and spiritually?  no, bill was

> >> inherently meek, joan's death was an accident.

> >

> >i would agree whole heartedly with this.  I would also strongly urge

> >anyone who hasn't read the preface to Queer, where he addresses the

> >subject, to do so. Incredibly moving and graphical baring. He was

> >remarkable in many ways.  When i first met william about 20 years ago,

> i

> >was touched by his true kindmess and caring, many people told me that

> he

> >hated women, and those people simply weren't near him..I was near and

> >close to him.  Knowing him i could quess what it was that led this man

> >to that moment and it was complex, something about obsession with

> >explosions and of moments, bone deep curiousity, alcohol, and i say

> >curiousity and experimentation .  He loved movement and action.  He was

> >lost in that moment of accidental time but i never felt that it was

> >anything but an accident.  I also felt he loved her.  I found him

> >incredibly unprejudiced in intelectual exchange with me, in ways that

> >many of my male acquiantance never have reached. He was more than

> >unprejudiced about women, he could discern the unacademic intellect,

> and

> >appreciate it.  Strangly enough that tragedy probably saved him, he

> >faced what had happend and while i would not go so far as to say he

> >forgave himself he seemed to have found himself, enough to write some

> of

> >the best things about life i had ever read. . Of all most anyone i ever

> >knew he was not prejudiced.  well he was't crazy about the english

> >social structure.

> >p

> >.-

> >

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:53:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Be-Bop: music of the beats

In-Reply-To:  <C1256548.002BAEEE.00@europamc-web1.europamc.com>

MIME-version: 1.0

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At 09:18 AM 11/7/97 +0100, you wrote:

>I think that we are wrong if we try to imitate the way of life of the beats

>through the music.

>I think that generation X and the grunge is shit. Because first was the

>grunge and then was the generation X.

>I think that beat generation was a crew of guys who fought by their dreams

>as we do. And music is the support to help us.

>I think that I got a problem bacause I don=B4t have music to help my life

>come true.

>Can somebody help me?

>Marcos L. Ch=E1varri

> 

 

        Yeah, grunge is (was, actually, I think that whole mess is finally over)

shit. I personally am a big fan of Be-bop, and it's one of few forms of

music that I can relate to. What do you mean by you don't "have music to

help your life come true?" De donde escribes, Marcos? Hablas Espa=F1ol? --Sa=

ra

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:26:55 -0500

Reply-To:     Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Burroughs and killing

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Patricia is right about two things:

 

1) The intro to Queer is THE best source for Burroughs' feelings about

Joan's death, and from a literary point of view, for his motivations for

writing ("I am forced to the appalling conclusion that were it not for

Joans' death I would never have become a writer"). In addition to this I

would suggest the pretty comprehensive account of the incident in Ted

Morgan's _Literary Outlaw_. He records several eyewitness accounts, and

some of them are so strikingly different that they seem to be describing

different incidents. Ah, how the capricious memory

 

2) The mysoginy in his work did not extend to his personal life. See

"Women are a Biological Mistake" from _The Adding Machine_; however I'll

laugh heartily at any claim that Burroughs' writing isn't mysoginous.

 

As for the accounts of friends, the book I'm anxiously awaiting, although

who knows if it'll ever be written, is James Grauerholz's "Life with

WSB" book. I have no idea if he plans to write any memoirs, but I'd

love to read them if he does. Besides, James is a pretty interesting guy

himself.

 

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:31:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MARK NOFERI <NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>

Subject:      Gen X

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Date:    Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:03:31 -0500

From:    "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: generation x

 

In a message dated 97-11-05 19:50:26 EST, Tyson writes:

 

<<     I think that, in this discussion, there is a misconception about

 what gen x is.  it's not the young generation now, it isn't defined by

 age; gen x is more an "attitude," an inability to categorize oneself

 within any one generational tendency.  dig what i'm saying?  that's why

 it's gen X, x is the unknown variable in a manner of speaking.  That

 sound right?

  >>

 

Agreed, completely with your comment Tyson. However, I see the whole tag

"GenX" as nothing more than the media's constant insatiable urge to

categorize.... I dunno, the whole thing bores me all to hell.  The term Gen X

comes originally not from Coupland's book but rather, 'twas the name of a

rather energetic (and quite good for its time) band headed by none other than

that snarling blondie Billy Idol -- hehe.  Let's all rent "Reality Bites" and

see our so-called lives lived out before us by those foxes Ethan Hawke &

Winona Ryder <wink wink>

 

 

Blah blah blah...

 

I couldn't agree more, blah blah blah. More accurately, not only is Gen x a

 complete media characterization, but it's

propagated by all those folks who work in advertising firms and need some catch

 phrase to sell their ideas to their

clients. It's one thing to say "we think this ad campaign will connect with the

 young people..."; it's another to say "we

think this campaign will really attract that Generation X Market!" Ding! Ding!

 Bells and whistles!

 

A cynical voice,

Mark Noferi

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Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:35:41 -0800

Reply-To:     balkose@egenet.com.tr

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Murat Balkose <balkose@EGENET.COM.TR>

Subject:      Re: Be-Bop: music of the beats

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Marcos L.Chavarri wrote such thing like this:

 

> I think that we are wrong if we try to imitate the way of life of the b=

eats

> through the music.

> I think that generation X and the grunge is shit. Because first was the

> grunge and then was the generation X.

> I think that beat generation was a crew of guys who fought by their dre=

ams

> as we do. And music is the support to help us.

> I think that I got a problem bacause I don=B4t have music to help my li=

fe

> come true.

> Can somebody help me?

> Marcos L. Ch=E1varri

 

 Marcos.I can't help you anyway & i am not sorry!

 

 Your connection between grunge and gen-x is very funny!!I listen some

grunge and i know what i am listening:

 

 

a mosquito,my libido, yay , yay , a denial , I'm worse at what I do best

 

and for this gift i feel blessed, i found it hard , it was hard to find,

 

oh well, whatever , NEVERMIND..

 

 Bye,

 

 Murat.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:01:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: free goofballs

 

In a message dated 97-11-07 01:21:19 EST, you write:

 

<< 

 hey, could you cite that quote.

 

 thanks

  >>

 

You know, off the top o' my head, I can't. It was in a letter from Jack to

Burroughs methinks, somewhere in the midst of the SELECTED LETTERS 1940-1956.

Time constraints are keeping me from looking it up --- packing for  a trip to

Tucson AZ in the mornin'.

 

I'll be back on Weds & I'll post the exact  context, letter date, etc.

 

Starfishes to all & to all a good weekend.

 

L

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:13:46 -0500

Reply-To:     Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

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hallo,

 

I've gotten private e-mail that leads me to believe that some people read

my post as a negative criticism of Patricia's posts. I don't mean them to

be read that way at all. I enjoy her thoughts and recollections of

friendship with WSB immensely. In my post I was just pointing people to

some other sources, especially writing by Burroughs himself, where they

could find the information. The desire to see a Grauerholz memoir is in no

way a slight of Patricia's writings either.

 

Ah, but as our good friend Derrida tells us

"Every reading is a misreading."

 

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:25:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: generation x

 

In a message dated 97-11-06 23:36:33 EST, you write:

 

<< 

 The media?  There have been generational lables and categories long

 before.  The media didn't lable the Beats as "The Beat Generation", the

 Beats themselves did.  Neither for the Lost Generation as well.  Also,

 there are powerful, powerful arguements for gernerational study.  A great,

 brilliant book called _Generations_ talks about their cyclical nature,

 makes interesting and valid comparisons, and sheds a lot of light on how

 society and age-categorized groups effect each other.

 

  >>

 

While, yes, there is a cyclical nature to it all, I still think that the

media has taken the tag of "X" and run w/ it to ridiculous levels.  They've

turned a supposed generational "attitude" into (an often humorous) parody. As

far as the Beats & the media are concerned, if I remember correctly, Jack had

some  problems with the tag "Beat Generation."  And I  believe the hype was

media-induced to some extent... But I'm pulling on old, faded postcards of

memory in the back of my somewhat soggy brain. I could be wrong.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:26:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

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>  Back to my original question:  Is it possible in America today for

>one writer (or small group of writers) to set the nation on fire like

>Jack

>and co. did?  I don't believe so.  There is almost too much talent

>around,

>and there's not too many more barriers to cross so there is no spotlight

>waiting for a single writer.  Has avant-guarde literature lost its place

>in America?  and now all the intelligent young writers end up writing

>screen plays or songs?  i hope not.

 

     no, it can happen and it will... just wait a while.  the main

deterent i see is the volume of books published within ay given year

now.  the market is saturated, especially with a new small press

popping up every day.  the advent of mass instant communication is also

an obstacle, people feel less of a need to communalize through books

because phones, email, internet, television is everywhere all the time;

while present in the 50's it was much less constant, it's achieved fad

status now.  it's an obvious logical progression, but at the same time

i think we'll see that the very things responsible for this process

will reverse it, or rather elevate it to a new level of isolation.

lonliness is the key word of our time, everyone is displaced, lost.. i

foresee a resurgence of existenial attitudes.  it seems too that lit

isn't as highly regarded among as many groups as before, evident in

Barnes and Nobles, and Borders stores everywhere; they cater to the

subculture of book lovers, which is the target group for publication

now.  I wonder if anyone feels like i do when i see the large amounts

of books out there that are just redundant, or cater to a

sensationalized topic.  Or for  instance Lee Ann Rhymes (spelling?) has

a new fiction out, she's 15, it probably never would've been published

had she not been famous already and, hence, extremely marketable.  Now,

i haven't read it, but i saw her talk about it on letterman, and my

hunch was that she doesn't know the first thing about writing... anyone

looked at this book?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:30:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

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>well, i have a few issues here.

>first, dont look for another jack kerouac.  dont even

>think about it.  not because the type of poet he was

>was unique, but because he was not a prophet, and we

>are not waiting for the second coming.  in other

>words, if he comes, he will come.

 

     hmmm... interesting.  i myself have always elevated jack to

boddhissatvahood.. to pure beautiful spiritual magical essence.  am i

wrong? i dunno..  opinions on perceptions of writers anyone?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:44:21 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <msg1188533.thr-903e6534.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

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> 

> sensationalized topic.  Or for  instance Lee Ann Rhymes (spelling?) has

> a new fiction out, she's 15, it probably never would've been published

> had she not been famous already and, hence, extremely marketable.  Now,

> i haven't read it, but i saw her talk about it on letterman, and my

> hunch was that she doesn't know the first thing about writing... anyone

> looked at this book?

> 

One word, folks...

 

 

SCARED.

 

 

Jorgiana

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:56:38 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

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At 01:44 PM 11/7/97 -0700, you wrote:

>> 

>> sensationalized topic.  Or for  instance Lee Ann Rhymes (spelling?) has

>> a new fiction out, she's 15, it probably never would've been published

>> had she not been famous already and, hence, extremely marketable.  Now,

>> i haven't read it, but i saw her talk about it on letterman, and my

>> hunch was that she doesn't know the first thing about writing... anyone

>> looked at this book?

>> 

>One word, folks...

> 

> 

>SCARED.

> 

> 

>Jorgiana

> 

> 

 

But...

 

do books like this and others keep the industry afloat making it possible

for them to take chances on less known more artistic writers?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:53:44 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

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> >> i haven't read it, but i saw her talk about it on letterman, and my

> >> hunch was that she doesn't know the first thing about writing...

 

> But...

 

i ALWAYS suspect reviews or critism of books that are assumptions.  If

you haven't read anything by the writer or in this case the book i think

it isn't anything to be "scared" about.  I had an editor that was giving

me feed back about my stuff not being right for a underground magazine,

he said very specific things about tone and  that i failed to  catch the

spirit of what they were trying to do. I had worked very hard on the

piece. lots of back ground, lots of research, and had a wonderful editor

go over the material. we were both set back at the final and rather

brutal rejection. then  i found out by chance that the editor had not

read one word, just knew it by knowing me. I thought what an arrogant

creep. art should not be soley judged by the artist. I know several

people who reviewed williams art as without ever having to look at any

of it, I am probably a bit nasty on this but, oh what was the point i

was trying to make. as i wander into is this beat, no it isn't .

 

lets read the preface to queer and talk about it.  It is a strong

piece.  the first time i read (heard) it i wept.  I laid on a couch and

wept for the tragedy, the beauty of the writing, the baring of the soul,

and the chance of anyone dealing with life with words like swords.. god

, it was the part of williams writing that always gripped me.

 

as to the thread another keruak

i believe in the power in language, there might be a poem or line or

tome coming that will change the world , the chance is high, rather he

or she  will be seen as a kerouac is not important to me at least.

because twain, kerouac, proust, t wolf, blake, all are part of us now

and somehow the writers that are coming will come from them and their

kin.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:34:30 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

Comments: To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

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-----Original Message-----

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 10:23 AM

Subject: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

 

 

>hallo,

> 

>I've gotten private e-mail that leads me to believe that some people read

>my post as a negative criticism of Patricia's posts. I don't mean them to

>be read that way at all. I enjoy her thoughts and recollections of

>friendship with WSB immensely. In my post I was just pointing people to

>some other sources, especially writing by Burroughs himself, where they

>could find the information. The desire to see a Grauerholz memoir is in no

>way a slight of Patricia's writings either.

> 

>Ah, but as our good friend Derrida tells us

>"Every reading is a misreading."

> 

>Cheers,

>Neil

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:38:27 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

Comments: To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

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From: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

Subject: Re:      Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 12:41 PM

Hi Neil,

I did not get any impression that you were criticizing Patricia. On the

contrary I felt you were expressing your own appreciation just as I was.

James Grauerholtz has of course a unique treasure of observations from all

sorts of perspectives about Burroughs' life, and you chose the one aspect,

as a friend, that you are looking forward to hear about. I can only take it

as firmer affirmation of the worth of true friends' reports. I hope I did

not sound as taking issue here.

What I was trying to point out is how different to me is the foundation for

wisdom about life that I get from ongoing communications with real people

whom I get to know, who are continuing to respond to immediate situations,

over the knowledge that I get from reading a book that was written by a

person whom I don't know. I like the list as a new kind of source of

knowledge.

I can see where that might play into some questions about scholarly

evaluations of literary issues. I myself miss the scholarly discussions that

are a bit dormant at the moment. I feel though that just as it may be

inappropriate to use people's lives to evaluate their art, it is also just

as inappropriate to evaluate their life by their art. But of course, you

very clearly say the same thing. As you point out the way Burroughs treats

women in some of his books is not quite the same way he treated women in his

real life.

Literary scholarship to evaluate literary aspects of literature, friends to

tell us about the lives of the authors of literature. The best of two

worlds.

That leaves us of course forever fascinated about the sometimes strange

bedfellows of authors and their works. It does seem that often these are two

diverging spheres that are not easily reconciled or understood as coming

from a single source where it all comes together.

Comes to mind for example my own musings about what might be really involved

in our human nature and its creation. Some of you have already found me out

to be a pretty decent fellow. You will be hardpressed to find any one who

would claim that I have been abusive or inconsiderate. You will find some

who would say that I have been more considerate and responsible to strangers

than I have been to my own family, but that is probably the worst that you

would hear about me, from people who know me in person.

However look at me in the written records, a criminal felonious record a

mile long as they might say. Even as Kerouac's biographer our own Gey

Nicosia likes to point out about Paul, what do you expect from a man who is

a convicted criminal, felon? Don't mean to fan the flames and I am not

saying it with any ill feeling toward Nicosia, I understand that anything

that helps undermine the dredibility of an opponent is to be used in serious

battle.  I also understand that in spite of it, that Nicosia might reserve

judgment about me inspite of my lengthy criminal record since we are not

battling each other. I am just using this example of how defined recorded

facts can take on a life of their own and may not be at all indicative of

what is involved in the real life of the protagonist. Am I a no good

criminal or am I a decent guy you can trust? Am I both some would say? And

if so how does that translate into what you might expect in a human being.

If I were a literary person I might be interested in expounding what

terrible insensitive killers we all are. Look at how we just tear up

billions of delicately formed living beings with ancesral trees that dwarf

our own into insignificance just for fuel. Just because we think we are such

hot shots, building skyscrapers and polluting our environment with discarded

waste from the massive amounts of nature's structures that we tear apart for

our convenience and amusement? It's all true isn't it?

Now if I wrote about it it could be said that I am a mysogynist in my

writings. But does it not mean only that I am peeking into the shadows that

we prefer to ignore because we can only tolerate that much discomfort about

hazy seemingly impenetrable issues. Rather than concluding that on a scale

of friend or foe of women Burroughs as a person stands in one end while

Burroughs the writer stands at another end, I might conclude that Burroughs

as a person ventured out with real friendliness to real fellow travelling

humans, while as a thinker stretching to the horizons he was willing to toss

around all kinds of socially unacceptable conceptualizion possibilities,

that did no harm to real people. men or women.

Should have stopped way back. I respect your opinions Neil, and hope that I

have not misunderstood, let alone misconstrued.

Best wishes,

leon

 

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 10:23 AM

Subject: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

 

>hallo,

> 

>I've gotten private e-mail that leads me to believe that some people read

>my post as a negative criticism of Patricia's posts. I don't mean them to

>be read that way at all. I enjoy her thoughts and recollections of

>friendship with WSB immensely. In my post I was just pointing people to

>some other sources, especially writing by Burroughs himself, where they

>could find the information. The desire to see a Grauerholz memoir is in no

>way a slight of Patricia's writings either.

> 

>Ah, but as our good friend Derrida tells us

>"Every reading is a misreading."

> 

>Cheers,

>Neil

>.-

> 

 tep

-----Original Message-----

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 10:23 AM

Subject: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

 

 

>hallo,

> 

>I've gotten private e-mail that leads me to believe that some people read

>my post as a negative criticism of Patricia's posts. I don't mean them to

>be read that way at all. I enjoy her thoughts and recollections of

>friendship with WSB immensely. In my post I was just pointing people to

>some other sources, especially writing by Burroughs himself, where they

>could find the information. The desire to see a Grauerholz memoir is in no

>way a slight of Patricia's writings either.

> 

>Ah, but as our good friend Derrida tells us

>"Every reading is a misreading."

> 

>Cheers,

>Neil

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:49:35 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

 Howdy, I didn't take neals comment in any way negative and I would

reassert that reading william preface to queer would be the way to go.

i also totally agree about that james would have a great deal to say and

i would suspect he would  be more than great at it.  He is a remarkable

person, In my mind i call him "he who can"

 

The preface to queer is a peice of work that i put up as some of the

best writing written in decades.  of ted morgans book i  thought it a

horrible peice of crap, with wierdly slanted interpretations, full of

misinformation and errors.  There are many good books out there if for

some reason someone wanted different slants. next best is selected

letters.

> > patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:49:05 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs and killing

Comments: To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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This was the original response to Neil's message that I thought I sent to

the list

 

leon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 7:01 AM

Subject: Burroughs and killing

 

 

>Patricia is right about two things:

> 

>1) The intro to Queer is THE best source for Burroughs' feelings about

>Joan's death, and from a literary point of view, for his motivations for

>writing ("I am forced to the appalling conclusion that were it not for

>Joans' death I would never have become a writer"). In addition to this I

>would suggest the pretty comprehensive account of the incident in Ted

>Morgan's _Literary Outlaw_. He records several eyewitness accounts, and

>some of them are so strikingly different that they seem to be describing

>different incidents. Ah, how the capricious memory

> 

>2) The mysoginy in his work did not extend to his personal life. See

>"Women are a Biological Mistake" from _The Adding Machine_; however I'll

>laugh heartily at any claim that Burroughs' writing isn't mysoginous.

> 

>As for the accounts of friends, the book I'm anxiously awaiting, although

>who knows if it'll ever be written, is James Grauerholz's "Life with

>WSB" book. I have no idea if he plans to write any memoirs, but I'd

>love to read them if he does. Besides, James is a pretty interesting guy

>himself.

> 

>Cheers,

>Neil

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:18:46 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs and killing

Comments: To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Looks like I am having some trouble getting mail out correctly.  Apologies

all around. This was my original reply to Neil that I thought went to the

list. I did not mean to criticize you in any way, Neil.I appreciate your

contributions a lot.

Leon

 

 

There will always be more interesting new bits of information coming out of

the woodwork and of the gifted pens of friends with knowledge. The Nice

thing about the information that Patricia shares with us, is that I can feel

fully confident that nothing will ever contradict the human illuminations

that she provides us with. While Burroughs' giant intellectual footsteps

will be subject to studies and speculations requiring brilliant cultured

minds for the unforeseable future, our interest in the real perosn who lived

a real life among friends is something that comes across to me best from a

true friend who continues to relate as a true friend, whose interactions are

illuminating their words, unlike something that I just read in a book by a

stranger to me.

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 7:01 AM

Subject: Burroughs and killing

 

>Patricia is right about two things:

> 

>1) The intro to Queer is THE best source for Burroughs' feelings about

>Joan's death, and from a literary point of view, for his motivations for

>writing ("I am forced to the appalling conclusion that were it not for

>Joans' death I would never have become a writer"). In addition to this I

>would suggest the pretty comprehensive account of the incident in Ted

>Morgan's _Literary Outlaw_. He records several eyewitness accounts, and

>some of them are so strikingly different that they seem to be describing

>different incidents. Ah, how the capricious memory

> 

>2) The mysoginy in his work did not extend to his personal life. See

>"Women are a Biological Mistake" from _The Adding Machine_; however I'll

>laugh heartily at any claim that Burroughs' writing isn't mysoginous.

> 

>As for the accounts of friends, the book I'm anxiously awaiting, although

>who knows if it'll ever be written, is James Grauerholz's "Life with

>WSB" book. I have no idea if he plans to write any memoirs, but I'd

>love to read them if he does. Besides, James is a pretty interesting guy

>himself.

> 

>Cheers,

>Neil

>.-

> 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 7:01 AM

Subject: Burroughs and killing

 

 

>Patricia is right about two things:

> 

>1) The intro to Queer is THE best source for Burroughs' feelings about

>Joan's death, and from a literary point of view, for his motivations for

>writing ("I am forced to the appalling conclusion that were it not for

>Joans' death I would never have become a writer"). In addition to this I

>would suggest the pretty comprehensive account of the incident in Ted

>Morgan's _Literary Outlaw_. He records several eyewitness accounts, and

>some of them are so strikingly different that they seem to be describing

>different incidents. Ah, how the capricious memory

> 

>2) The mysoginy in his work did not extend to his personal life. See

>"Women are a Biological Mistake" from _The Adding Machine_; however I'll

>laugh heartily at any claim that Burroughs' writing isn't mysoginous.

> 

>As for the accounts of friends, the book I'm anxiously awaiting, although

>who knows if it'll ever be written, is James Grauerholz's "Life with

>WSB" book. I have no idea if he plans to write any memoirs, but I'd

>love to read them if he does. Besides, James is a pretty interesting guy

>himself.

> 

>Cheers,

>Neil

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:20:08 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> 

>      no, it can happen and it will... just wait a while.  the main

> deterent i see is the volume of books published within ay given year

> now.  the market is saturated, especially with a new small press

> popping up every day.  the advent of mass instant communication is also

> an obstacle, people feel less of a need to communalize through books

> because phones, email, internet, television is everywhere all the time;

> while present in the 50's it was much less constant, it's achieved fad

> status now.

 

i suspect that there will not be another Keroacu per se.  He is in a

time and place of his own and the timelessness will be linked to that

time and place.

 

it seems to me that some of the most important questions are asked in

the journal notes of WSB reprinted in the New Yorker some time ago.

Where can we go with the novel?

 

it seems to me -- and i've been beginning to discuss this some with a

friend in LA -- the next phase is not through the traditional publishers

but through the wonders of the technology we're using right now.  the

possibilities for non-linearity by way of HTML linkages (i have no idea

what HTML means :)), allowing linearity and non-linearity to exist in

the same space seems promising.  the possibilities of incorporating the

wonderful work that has been done with spoken word -- and its mixture

with musics -- with the words themselves in terms of page and audio are

a loving future prospect (perhaps not future -- perhaps now -- but since

i don't have a sound card as of yet, it is still future for me) -- the

possibilities of connecting the visual with the word and the sound all

in linkages that connect the traditional format of writing with the

forms that are mentioned as distractions from the traditional format

above all seem wonderful avenues for exploration.

 

i have to wonder sometimes about Kerouac and company if they had been

alive in this time.  i can't imagine that they would not have been

connected to these technological innovations that allow for the

traditional forms and yet offer possibilities far from the conventional

as well.

 

just some random thinking....

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:19:15 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

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I think we will get another Kerouac out of the blue.

 

What was avante-garde is no longer.

 

That Germans look to Bukowski as the great american writer suggests that

since he can make a smash in that very different context, it might be a

matter of switching contexts.

 

Harold Rhenisch

rhenisch@web-trek.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:24:01 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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You bet.

 

***

 

i believe in the power in language, there might be a poem or line or

tome coming that will change the world , the chance is high, rather he

or she  will be seen as a kerouac is not important to me at least.

because twain, kerouac, proust, t wolf, blake, all are part of us now

and somehow the writers that are coming will come from them and their

kin.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:19:34 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Conference

 

John Tytell asked me to forward the following conference information to

the list: CALL FOR PAPERS

FOR THE 1998 NETHERLANDS AMERICAN STUDIES ASSOCIATIION (NASA) CONFERENCE

ON

BEAT CULTURE AND BEYOND

American Countercultures in the 1950s

During the fifties and early sixties a broad cultural movement,

permeating many forms of artistic expression (poetry, novels, visual

arts, film making and music) transformed American artistic life. It

tried to offer another perspective on American reality (street-level

realism) as an alternative to the conforrnity and consensus of the

Eisenhower years.

The Netherlands American Studies Association conference to be held at

the Roosevelt Study Center in Middelburg, the Netherlands, on June 3-5,

1998 aims to explore the interactions in the United States between the

dominant culture and the countercultures, especially that of the Beat

Generation. Attention will also be given to the impact of these

countercultures in Europe. It will do so from a multi-disciplinary angle

(historyv literature, sociology, cinematography, music, religion,

etcetera).

A selection of the conference proceedings will be published in the

series European Contributions to American Studies (Amsterdam: VU

University Press). The conference volume will be edited by the

conference organizers Jaap van der Bent, Mel van Elteren, and Kees van

Minnen.

Scholars interested in participating in this conference are invited to

submit a one-page paper proposal before December 1, 1997. Paper

presenters are requested to cover their own travel and hotel expenses.

Conference Secretarv:

Dr. Kees van Minnen Roosevelt Study Center P.O. Box 6001 4330 LA

Middelburg The Netherlands fax: 31-118-631593 e-mail:

c.vanminnen@,rsc.knaw.nl

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:15:22 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mark Baartse <seenoise@DIRCON.CO.UK>

Subject:      Beat Shop in London

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

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Hi all.

 

I've heard rumours around that there is a shop in or near Camden, London,

that specialises in selling beat literature, etc. Does anyone know of this

shop? Do you have a name/address/phone number/anything?

 

Mark

 

 

consistency is the refuge of the unimaginative

       oscar wilde

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:25:14 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mark Baartse <seenoise@DIRCON.CO.UK>

Subject:      New recordings

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I'm working on a highly interactive web project, which will be a sort of

interactive music/spoken word centre. As part of it, several segments of

spoken word readings are needed. The whole project is very beat influenced

(although not beat) and so would like to maintain that in the recordings.

I am planning to put in some recordings of Burroughs, but really want to

avoid having a large portion of the content being old stuff - I really want

a 90s thing in there (the music is very 90's, and the look although not

specifically 90s, couldn't really exist in any other decade!). So, does

anyone have, or can they suggest, some good spoken word recordings suitable

for my uses? 1 or 2 minutes in length (per piece) would be ideal, but there

is flexibility.

 

Email me for more info - seenoise@dircon.co.uk.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

 

 

consistency is the refuge of the unimaginative

       oscar wilde

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:09:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat Shop in London

In-Reply-To:  <01bcebdb$67563780$0100007f@localhost> from "Mark Baartse" at Nov

              8, 97 00:15:22 am

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> I've heard rumours around that there is a shop in or near Camden, London,

> that specialises in selling beat literature, etc. Does anyone know of this

> shop? Do you have a name/address/phone number/anything?

> 

> Mark

===>You're thinking of Compendium.

   It's not bad

   (although for my money,Water Row's selection

   is much more impressive)

   Go on a Saturday,and check out the Camden Lock

   Flea Market as well.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:35:23 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: pome

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marlene Giraud

Sent:   Monday, November 03, 1997 8:07 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        pome

 

    POETICIDE-- a writer's hallucination

 

     i sat in my room     with jack kerouac last night

              and i crumbled

   hugged my knees

   and listened to the voice of my

               mad

       cracked

              calloused

     hands -- the invention

     the spontaneous writer

     the ONLY writer...

      tossed my hair in a bun

    wrapped myself in cotton linens

    ate crackers and cheese    and laughed out loud

          i want to hear

         tappity taps and clickety clicks

      typewriters warming under my frenzied fingers

        but its the low glow of a computer

        and the silence of my suburbia

        marshmallow nights in front of the t.v.

        insomnia and piles of books--

     the reformation of a poet

                   i'm growing inside these tight blue jeans.

      writing my name in the sand

        or the blue knit carpet of my room

     my split-level home

     my split-level mind

            my aching jazz-soul

             my drippy slippy lilting voice that moves

        with my moods

             and slides through poetry like melted moons

      I want to get drunk!

      I want to get high!

         suck nicotine and kiss someone i hardly know

      smell the fog

           inhale the driveway concrete

           the neighbor's dog

          caricatured moonlight       spiderlight dances

     Oh! my piece of life

           piece of stained glass freedom

           piece of ass       and frozen highway

     Oh blue rain and sunday mornings

               memories of church choir and pancake breakfeast

i wish i didn't know where i'll be when i wake up.

     Oh jack,

               i need to feel hot wine sliding down my throat

                  take tea trips with eyes closed.

                i would've liked to seen your face

                        your drunksad eyes

                 maybe touch your shoulder

                              hear the world go "pop!"

    but, i'm still dreaming

           i'm still flowing

           i'm still creating

                           and maybe its not hitch hike america

      or booze freedom

                           maybe its not stolen cars

      or san francisco

          but its my journal i cling to

                 my innocence i run away from

   i love in soft waves

   i sing out loud in the car

   i scratch the sky

   i mold

   i grasp

   i hold

                i'm soaking in sadness

                      rolling in madness

            tracing my fingers along the edges

            guiding my hips

      the cd's on

                            repeat

                            repeat

                            repeat

       i feel like a woman

                               and i'm still naked.

 

  ~~marlene

         nov. 2nd at 1:00 am

 

 

God . . . Man! I have to tell you how beautiful that was.  It was perfect and

it kind of made me cry a little . . . You captured the emotions that I feel.

It is like someone took a photograph of my mind.  I didn't know anyone could

relate to this longing, this searching for SOMETHING in a world that just

won't hold you. . . the dissatisfaction of it.   It was like these perfect

chrystalline images that were graphic, real, alive. You expressed exactly what

I've been struggling to say for years.    Thank you for sharing that.  I think

I'll save it, hold on to it.  Anyway, I hope you get it published.  The best

thing I've read in years.

 

Shani

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:00:44 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Leon,

 

Thank God you did not stop sooner.  This post is one of the best things

I have read on Beat-L in a long time.  You have some very insightful

things to say on the relationship between author and work, fact and

larger truths, hypothesis and felt attitudes.

 

The relationship between you as a person and your legal record reminds

me of the last time we were in N. Beach, your daughter was driving and

you suggested a move to her.  We were right by the N. Beach station

house, and we were laughing about how Ramah could tell the cop her

father had told her to, then the cop would look in the window and say

"Well Mr. Tabory, haven't seen you in awhile."

 

Thanks again for the thought provoking post.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

 

(Snip)

> That leaves us of course forever fascinated about the sometimes strange

> bedfellows of authors and their works. It does seem that often these are two

> diverging spheres that are not easily reconciled or understood as coming

> from a single source where it all comes together.

> Comes to mind for example my own musings about what might be really involved

> in our human nature and its creation. Some of you have already found me out

> to be a pretty decent fellow. You will be hardpressed to find any one who

> would claim that I have been abusive or inconsiderate. You will find some

> who would say that I have been more considerate and responsible to strangers

> than I have been to my own family, but that is probably the worst that you

> would hear about me, from people who know me in person.

> However look at me in the written records, a criminal felonious record a

> mile long as they might say. Even as Kerouac's biographer our own Gey

> Nicosia likes to point out about Paul, what do you expect from a man who is

> a convicted criminal, felon? Don't mean to fan the flames and I am not

> saying it with any ill feeling toward Nicosia, I understand that anything

> that helps undermine the dredibility of an opponent is to be used in serious

> battle.  I also understand that in spite of it, that Nicosia might reserve

> judgment about me inspite of my lengthy criminal record since we are not

> battling each other. I am just using this example of how defined recorded

> facts can take on a life of their own and may not be at all indicative of

> what is involved in the real life of the protagonist. Am I a no good

> criminal or am I a decent guy you can trust? Am I both some would say? And

> if so how does that translate into what you might expect in a human being.

> If I were a literary person I might be interested in expounding what

> terrible insensitive killers we all are. Look at how we just tear up

> billions of delicately formed living beings with ancesral trees that dwarf

> our own into insignificance just for fuel. Just because we think we are such

> hot shots, building skyscrapers and polluting our environment with discarded

> waste from the massive amounts of nature's structures that we tear apart for

> our convenience and amusement? It's all true isn't it?

> Now if I wrote about it it could be said that I am a mysogynist in my

> writings. But does it not mean only that I am peeking into the shadows that

> we prefer to ignore because we can only tolerate that much discomfort about

> hazy seemingly impenetrable issues. Rather than concluding that on a scale

> of friend or foe of women Burroughs as a person stands in one end while

> Burroughs the writer stands at another end, I might conclude that Burroughs

> as a person ventured out with real friendliness to real fellow travelling

> humans, while as a thinker stretching to the horizons he was willing to toss

> around all kinds of socially unacceptable conceptualizion possibilities,

> that did no harm to real people. men or women.

> 

 Should have stopped way back.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:51:56 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> Leon Tabory wrote:

> >

> > Patricia

> >

> > You are such a gem. I am not speaking of your poetry right now. I am

> > speaking of how you give definition to the word true friend. A true

> > friend is not one who would overlook and color in things to make the

> > friend look "better". A true friend loves their friend enough to know

> > them as much as only a true friend can, and accepts them for what they

> > are. A true friend can explain a person better than any objectified

> > scholarship tries to do. A true friend wants to explain their friends to

> Leon, thank you for your words, it does give me an excuse to say, in

> many ways i have no business answering what william felt.  I did know

> him but he had  many friends, closer and for longer than me. I am more

> than an imperfect recorder of even my impressions.  And i don't think i

> should be so free with my impressions and feelings as i have been. I

> mean this, i think it took about a tenth of williams attention to keep

> up a conversation with me.  I know I honestly loved him and I know he

> honestly cared for me, but I am not sure that i saw much more than the

> iceberg. the part i did see was fascinating and consistant. I am sure

> of a few things, and just as sure i am wrong about some of the things i

> am sure about.

> gosh that was fun.

> good night.

> p

 

i'm keenly aware of WSB's mind.  it is evident in every page produced.

perhaps your percentage is off a bit, but even if it is the case that

you only required a tenth of his attention in conversation, that says a

world to me in itself.  the fact that he was willing to share and care

with people that only scratched the iceberg makes him into so much more

of a caring and loving portrait.  a portrait that is far more likely

over time to be named "love most natural painkiller" rather than

"william tell".  it frustrates me sometimes when folks associate WSB

primarily with the shooting of Joan rather than with the incredible mind

and curiosity that i fell in love with many years ago.  but i also

believe and learn more with each of your posts that his great mind did

not get too much in the way of his humanity.  This is an incredible and

wonderful dimension to add to his story.  I imagine that you are correct

that there are others who knew him for longer and for better and i hope

that they will come forward and tell their stories too.  I feel that it

will be a shame if the name history gives to WSB's lifescript by his

"director" is associated with one instant, in one day, so long ago.  i

hope that others will tell stories that will provide the context of WSB

the person to supplement the ideas we have of the author and that

together these may eventually overwhelm the power of the dark spirit of

one instant in one day to be the defining title of a life.  i agree with

you that the beginnings of Queer which you recommended to me when i was

at your place and i sat down and digested immediately and thoroughly

shows a wonderful spin of how this significant event directed him to

writing his way out of the darkness that he felt the day of Joan's

death.  I hope that all read it.  And i hope that in its reading and the

telling of the stories we as a community connected to his memory in one

way or another may properly show our respects to the memory of an entire

life and not one episode.  I wish that i could tell some stories of my

own.  Most of my discussions with WSB were during periods of psychosis

on my part -- as the only time i met the man face to face he was in a

coffin in a kansas opera house.  I used to envy people who got to know

him personally.  It was an insidious envy.  I've gotten over that

somehow.  Now I'm so happy that those who did get the chance to know him

well had such a wonderful twist of fate and am glad when these people

share tales with the rest of the community of people who loved and still

love william seward burroughs.

 

i hope that your stories continue.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:58:53 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Shani St.John wrote:

> 

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marlene Giraud

> Sent:   Monday, November 03, 1997 8:07 PM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        pome

> 

>     POETICIDE-- a writer's hallucination

> 

>      i sat in my room     with jack kerouac last night

>               and i crumbled

>    hugged my knees

>    and listened to the voice of my

>                mad

>        cracked

>               calloused

>      hands -- the invention

>      the spontaneous writer

>      the ONLY writer...

>       tossed my hair in a bun

>     wrapped myself in cotton linens

>     ate crackers and cheese    and laughed out loud

>           i want to hear

>          tappity taps and clickety clicks

>       typewriters warming under my frenzied fingers

>         but its the low glow of a computer

>         and the silence of my suburbia

>         marshmallow nights in front of the t.v.

>         insomnia and piles of books--

>      the reformation of a poet

>                    i'm growing inside these tight blue jeans.

>       writing my name in the sand

>         or the blue knit carpet of my room

>      my split-level home

>      my split-level mind

>             my aching jazz-soul

>              my drippy slippy lilting voice that moves

>         with my moods

>              and slides through poetry like melted moons

>       I want to get drunk!

>       I want to get high!

>          suck nicotine and kiss someone i hardly know

>       smell the fog

>            inhale the driveway concrete

>            the neighbor's dog

>           caricatured moonlight       spiderlight dances

>      Oh! my piece of life

>            piece of stained glass freedom

>            piece of ass       and frozen highway

>      Oh blue rain and sunday mornings

>                memories of church choir and pancake breakfeast

> i wish i didn't know where i'll be when i wake up.

>      Oh jack,

>                i need to feel hot wine sliding down my throat

>                   take tea trips with eyes closed.

>                 i would've liked to seen your face

>                         your drunksad eyes

>                  maybe touch your shoulder

>                               hear the world go "pop!"

>     but, i'm still dreaming

>            i'm still flowing

>            i'm still creating

>                            and maybe its not hitch hike america

>       or booze freedom

>                            maybe its not stolen cars

>       or san francisco

>           but its my journal i cling to

>                  my innocence i run away from

>    i love in soft waves

>    i sing out loud in the car

>    i scratch the sky

>    i mold

>    i grasp

>    i hold

>                 i'm soaking in sadness

>                       rolling in madness

>             tracing my fingers along the edges

>             guiding my hips

>       the cd's on

>                             repeat

>                             repeat

>                             repeat

>        i feel like a woman

>                                and i'm still naked.

> 

>   ~~marlene

>          nov. 2nd at 1:00 am

> 

> God . . . Man! I have to tell you how beautiful that was.  It was perfect and

> it kind of made me cry a little . . . You captured the emotions that I feel.

> It is like someone took a photograph of my mind.  I didn't know anyone could

> relate to this longing, this searching for SOMETHING in a world that just

> won't hold you. . . the dissatisfaction of it.   It was like these perfect

> chrystalline images that were graphic, real, alive. You expressed exactly what

> I've been struggling to say for years.    Thank you for sharing that.  I think

> I'll save it, hold on to it.  Anyway, I hope you get it published.  The best

> thing I've read in years.

> 

> Shani

 

thanks for this Shani.  I'd lost the poem and had also meant to say how

much i liked it.  But i'll just say i feel about the same sensations fro

the poem as you express here.

 

thanks for writing it and sharing it Marlene .....

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:20:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: New recordings

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi Mark,

 

        Can't wait to visit the site. Some suggestions beginning with the

very Beat related/influenced  Kerouac tribute recently out called "kick joy

darkness"; I would recommend the Eric Anderson reading of Brooklyn Bridge

Blues, Morpine's 'Kerouac', Lawrence Ferlinghetti's reading withe Helium of

'On a Sunny Afternoon', John Cale's reading of 'Hymn', Johnny Depp & Come

doing 'Madroad driving...' [this would segue nicely into Lee (of Sonic

Youth) Ranaldo's 'the Bridge' off of one of his solo recordings....he also

does one of the cuts on "k j d"] and 'Mexico Rooftop' - just 1:25! - by Robb

Buck and Denny Chauvin...others will have other recommendations.

 

        The spoken word compilation "Word up" is also worth tracking

down....any amount of good stuff to select from - one of my favorites

although well over your two minutes is "Monk is dead...Monk lives!" by Dub

poet Clifton Joseph....definitely a Beat/bebop influence!

 

        Or track down "Smack my crack" from John Giorno Poetry

Systems...great Tom Waits thing "Ol' Pontiac"....

 

        And Tommy Swerdlow.....

 

        But trollthe stuff from forty-fifty years ago! Slim Gaillard, Lord

Buckley, Clark Terry doing "Mumble", Babs Gonzales, Harry "the Hipster"

Gibson.....lots out there!

 

                Antoine

 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:27:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>it seems to me -- and i've been beginning to discuss this some with a

>friend in LA -- the next phase is not through the traditional publishers

>but through the wonders of the technology we're using right now.  the

>possibilities for non-linearity by way of HTML linkages (i have no idea

>what HTML means :)), allowing linearity and non-linearity to exist in

>the same space seems promising.

 

      not for me, i like holding paper, turning pages, carrying it

around with me.  besides, the problem of self-support comes in.  i

mean, a writer's gotta be able to afford the essentials of living, like

whiskey, and  cigarettes.  HTML means Hyper Text Markup Language  the

simple language that web browsers understand to make things look a

certain way on your screen.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:41:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

 

Thanks, Donahue!  Post-modernism leaves us older folks feeling as if our

world is already gone.  The essayists who get such short shrift today are

indeed carrying on a tradition begun far before the beats, but not ignored by

them.  The Best American Essays series is outstanding with a different editor

each year, the newest 1997 is now available in paperback.   Haven't dipped

into it yet, but I know much joy and enlightenment awaits.  I usually read

the BAE series in order of essay length, shortest to longest, and quit when I

realize an essay is out of my interest area, skip to the next.  Poetic

indeed.  Most of these writers are true craftsmen(persons) using words with

the precision and sure skill expected of brain surgeons.  Other such

anthologies are available in big book stores.   EVERYONE SHOULD READ jOSEPH

MITCHELL's Up In the Old Hotel, if only for the major league, major lead

essay on McSorley's.  Kisses, starfishes, and knishes! DCard

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:58:21 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> 

> >it seems to me -- and i've been beginning to discuss this some with a

> >friend in LA -- the next phase is not through the traditional publishers

> >but through the wonders of the technology we're using right now.  the

> >possibilities for non-linearity by way of HTML linkages (i have no idea

> >what HTML means :)), allowing linearity and non-linearity to exist in

> >the same space seems promising.

> 

 

 

This thread provokes some intersting questions.  I am not sure why we

would want "another Kerouac" wonderful as he was.  Sound like an awful

burden, like being the new Hemingway or Proust.  Better to me that we

watch for the next wonderful writer doing something uniquely there own,

as Jack did, or Allen, or Bill. Do we think that WSB wanted to be hailed

as the next Kafka?

 

But David's post raises questions that I've thought about alot.  I have

a love for books, and for poems that lie on a page for my mind to play

with over and over on that flat space.  One of the reasons that Beat

draws me is that it was the last scene in which poetry was absolutely

central.  Ginsberg is quoted as saying, on first hearing Dylan, that the

Kerouac torch was in good hands.  Maybe it passed to Dylan, and to

music, film, other media.  This has produced wonderful stuff without a

doubt, lots of things that I love, but it leaves us with fewer wonderful

new poems on paper. Even Dylan's stuff, god that he is, when simply

stripped of it's music on the printed page is rarely great poetry.

 

Maybe I'm like a monk in the time of Gutenberg, lamenting the passage of

manuscripts which show the soul of the skillful hand that did them for

the soulless printing press.  But do we have to have access to a band to

write, or to hone our geek skills so that we can work in a Web

environment, or the money needed to do film?  Good old pen and paper was

so easy in some ways.  I hope that we always have it and that the old

medium keeps drawing some of the best talent.  Whatever is to happen to

the novel, we still at least have the poem.

 

Pondering on the left coast.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:59:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

 

Hi, Tyson, I haven't looked at the Rimes book, but I have looked deeply into

LeeAnn's eyes...and listed to her channelling the voice of Patsy Cline with

Blue.  She's a marvel of some sort. She will be ruined and ravaged within a

short time, perhaps a couple of years, but right now she has a crystalline

purity (of sound on tape, cd, or vinyl) that hasn't been heard in some years.

 She's too good , too young.  Something like the early Tanya Tucker....no,

better than that.   I want to protect her, to save her from what inevitably

awaits...but that's impossible...I hear her voice on the radio and have no

other contact with her.  I see her photo in the mags and tabloids and go

drizzily with some strange paternalistic lust.  I'm obviously subscribed to

the wrong list.  What has this to do with beat?  What has this to do with the

sort of writing we usually are concerned with?  Nothing....except the heart,

the heart beats, and beats, and beats, ... go, Tyson, go, go, go.  Don't buy

her book...listen to her music before it goes away.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 05:24:44 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: pome

 

somehow i missed this poem.  WOW!!! Marlene,  you GOT IT!!  thanks for sharing

it!!       ~sherri

 

 

for years

those frozen tears

those silent screams

 

longing, aching

 

in dreams

body melting

feet sticking to the floor

desperately running for the door

from the mad Moloch

of middle class

candy ass

moronic mindlessness

 

bound in chains

of Amerika's mad whoreship

of $$$ worship

                warship

 

sway my hips

kiss my lips

take me away

from this insanity play

where candles don't drip

and people don't trip

 

where the black hole

of Amerikan society

                        s  u  c   k    s

like

                   q    u     i    c    k     s     a      n    d

at my feet

telling me to be discrete

blinding me with the sheepshit

 

we wallow in

 

and the more i struggle

the tighter

                it

                        squeezes

                                      my

                                                t h  r   o    a     t   **

 

sherri sarantakis  11/7/97

**not sure if the font changes will translate:  each letter gets progressively

smaller...

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of RACE ---

Sent:   Friday, November 07, 1997 7:58 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: pome

 

Shani St.John wrote:

> 

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marlene Giraud

> Sent:   Monday, November 03, 1997 8:07 PM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        pome

> 

>     POETICIDE-- a writer's hallucination

> 

>      i sat in my room     with jack kerouac last night

>               and i crumbled

>    hugged my knees

>    and listened to the voice of my

>                mad

>        cracked

>               calloused

>      hands -- the invention

>      the spontaneous writer

>      the ONLY writer...

>       tossed my hair in a bun

>     wrapped myself in cotton linens

>     ate crackers and cheese    and laughed out loud

>           i want to hear

>          tappity taps and clickety clicks

>       typewriters warming under my frenzied fingers

>         but its the low glow of a computer

>         and the silence of my suburbia

>         marshmallow nights in front of the t.v.

>         insomnia and piles of books--

>      the reformation of a poet

>                    i'm growing inside these tight blue jeans.

>       writing my name in the sand

>         or the blue knit carpet of my room

>      my split-level home

>      my split-level mind

>             my aching jazz-soul

>              my drippy slippy lilting voice that moves

>         with my moods

>              and slides through poetry like melted moons

>       I want to get drunk!

>       I want to get high!

>          suck nicotine and kiss someone i hardly know

>       smell the fog

>            inhale the driveway concrete

>            the neighbor's dog

>           caricatured moonlight       spiderlight dances

>      Oh! my piece of life

>            piece of stained glass freedom

>            piece of ass       and frozen highway

>      Oh blue rain and sunday mornings

>                memories of church choir and pancake breakfeast

> i wish i didn't know where i'll be when i wake up.

>      Oh jack,

>                i need to feel hot wine sliding down my throat

>                   take tea trips with eyes closed.

>                 i would've liked to seen your face

>                         your drunksad eyes

>                  maybe touch your shoulder

>                               hear the world go "pop!"

>     but, i'm still dreaming

>            i'm still flowing

>            i'm still creating

>                            and maybe its not hitch hike america

>       or booze freedom

>                            maybe its not stolen cars

>       or san francisco

>           but its my journal i cling to

>                  my innocence i run away from

>    i love in soft waves

>    i sing out loud in the car

>    i scratch the sky

>    i mold

>    i grasp

>    i hold

>                 i'm soaking in sadness

>                       rolling in madness

>             tracing my fingers along the edges

>             guiding my hips

>       the cd's on

>                             repeat

>                             repeat

>                             repeat

>        i feel like a woman

>                                and i'm still naked.

> 

>   ~~marlene

>          nov. 2nd at 1:00 am

> 

> God . . . Man! I have to tell you how beautiful that was.  It was perfect

and

> it kind of made me cry a little . . . You captured the emotions that I feel.

> It is like someone took a photograph of my mind.  I didn't know anyone could

> relate to this longing, this searching for SOMETHING in a world that just

> won't hold you. . . the dissatisfaction of it.   It was like these perfect

> chrystalline images that were graphic, real, alive. You expressed exactly

what

> I've been struggling to say for years.    Thank you for sharing that.  I

think

> I'll save it, hold on to it.  Anyway, I hope you get it published.  The best

> thing I've read in years.

> 

> Shani

 

thanks for this Shani.  I'd lost the poem and had also meant to say how

much i liked it.  But i'll just say i feel about the same sensations fro

the poem as you express here.

 

thanks for writing it and sharing it Marlene .....

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:56:41 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Joey Mellott <peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>

Subject:      Re: gen x

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Let's not forget the punk band that became Billy Idols rocket to stardom,

Generation X in the late 70's.

 

Just a thought

 

Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and unsocialite theatre fan

(peyotecoyote@iah.com)

"the socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little

bells (300 of horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."

- Antonin Artaud

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:24:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      The Kerouac Quarterly Sample Copies

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi! I hope those of you who have asked for sample copies have started to

receive them. We still have a few left. Just ask...the web page has been

updated, go to:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

                           Thanks and enjoy...

                                  yours truly, Paul of TKQ. . .

 

    Stay tuned for December's Kerouac Cover of the Month. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:25:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly Sample Copies

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> 

> Hi! I hope those of you who have asked for sample copies have started to

> receive them. We still have a few left. Just ask...the web page has been

> updated, go to:

> 

>   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

> 

>                            Thanks and enjoy...

>                                   yours truly, Paul of TKQ. . .

> 

>     Stay tuned for December's Kerouac Cover of the Month. . .

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

I recieved my sample. Thank you,

Patrica

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:44:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: pome

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:24 AM 11/8/97 UT, you wrote:

>somehow i missed this poem.  WOW!!! Marlene,  you GOT IT!!  thanks for sharing

>it!!       ~sherri

> 

> 

>for years                                for years

>those frozen tears                       those frozen beers

>those silent screams                     made me scream

> 

>longing, aching                          my loins are longing, aching

> 

>in dreams                                in dreams

>body melting                             ice cream melting

>feet sticking to the floor               hands sticking to the door

>desperately running for the door         puddles oozing onto the floor

>from the mad Moloch                      from my mad mother

>of middle class                          before my class

>candy ass                                she spanks my ass

>moronic mindlessness                     a mindless moron

> 

>bound in chains                          wound in chains

>of Amerika's mad whoreship               locked in the closet

>of $$$ worship                           my Dad's Playboys I worshiped

warship                            monkeyspank

> 

>sway my hips                             I sprayed her hips

>kiss my lips                             parted her lips

>take me away                             took her away

>from this insanity play                  to my room, under the mattress

>where candles don't drip                 where penises drip

>and people don't trip                    and shoestrings made me trip

> 

>where the black hole                     where the black hole

>of Amerikan society                      of a lowell whore

>                        s  u  c   k    s

>like a Hoover vacuum cleaner

>                   q    u     i    c    k     s     a      n    d

>through her private area like a quagmire

>telling me to be discrete because my mother's in the next room

>blinding me with her dirty underwear

> 

>we wallow in

>her filthy clamor

>and the more i struggle

>the tighter

>                she

>                        squeezes

>                                      my

>                                                b  a  l  l  s   **

 

 

>> 

>>     POETICIDE-- a writer's hallucination

>> 

>>      i sat in my room     with jack kerouac last night

>>               and i digitally

>>    manipulated my hole

>>    and listened to the slapping of my

>>                mad

>>        cracked

>>               calloused

>>      hands -- the invention

>>      the vibrating phallus

>>      the ONLY true instrument of pleasure...

>>       tossed my hair in a bun

>>     wrapped myself in dirty cotton linens

>>     ate out of an old bum's hands    and laughed out loud

>>           i want to hear

>>          the unceasing droan of the vibrator and clickety click...

>>       it warms under my frenzied fingers

>>         but its the low hum now of dying batteries

>>         and the silence of my dismay

>>         marshmallow mess in the palm of my hands

>>         insomnia and dead batteries--

>>      the reformation of a growing longing

>>                    i'm glowing inside these tight blue jeans.

>>       writing my name in the sand with a stream of urine

>>         or the blue knit carpet of my room

>>      my split-level crack

>>      my split-level nethers

>>             my aching jizz

>>              my drippy slippy lilting finger that moves

>>         with my moods

>>              and slides through my elastic waistband like melted moons

>>       I want to get drunk!

>>       I want to get high!

>>          suck **** and kiss someone i hardly know

>>       smell the carbon monooxide

>>            inhale the driveway aromatic cloud of death

>>            the neighbor's dog is happy

>>           caricatured moonlight       spiderlight dances

>>      Oh! I leave the enigine running, door closed

>>            piece of stained glass freedom

>>            piece of ass I am no more       and frozen highway

>>      Oh blue rain and sunday mornings I am a bore

>>                memories of church choir and pancake breakfeast

>> i wish i didn't know where i'll be when i throw up.

>>      Oh jack,

>>                i need to feel hot milky floodbath sliding down my throat

>>                   make semen drip with eyes closed.

>>                 i would've liked to seen your face

>>                         your drunksad eyes

                               getting drunker

                           so that you don't have to read my poetry

 

 

>>        i feel like a woman

>>                                and i'm still naked.

>> 

 

I took my liberties with this...I thought I would share my own poetic gifts.

Paul....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:05:31 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: gen x

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Let's not forget the punk band that became Billy Idols rocket to stardom,

>Generation X in the late 70's.

> 

>Just a thought

 

Yes of course, and also around the same time was Richard Hell and the

Voidoids' Blank Generation, which is the same idea.

 

I always wondered how this 70's thing got transferred to the 90's.

 

 

> 

>Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and unsocialite theatre fan

>(peyotecoyote@iah.com)

>"the socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little

>bells (300 of horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."

>- Antonin Artaud

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:17:26 -0800

Reply-To:     jjm@Tidalwave.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Mader <jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>

Organization: Lockheed Martin

Subject:      it's all good

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i will supply you with new adventers,sure you will doubt my competense

and free spirt but i know.  i see you cry your yearning for more but i

will comfort you in your time of need. sure i can move to france and

write a book and make you stand on end for more but am i capable of much

more. yes my brothers and sisters i am. thsi isn't jerry okay, its his

son thats using this account, im not using this to get stock quotes or

info about important info, im using this to trade info, isn't this what

its all about, sure you can try to braeak me down with your words and

thoughts but i won't give, you see i'm tired of your conformist views.

break away from what you know, embark upon something unknown (if u found

this list then i know you are competent) lets start something here some

thing brand spanking "NEW"!!!!!!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:27:20 -0800

Reply-To:     jjm@Tidalwave.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Mader <jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>

Organization: Lockheed Martin

Subject:      Re: it's all good

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> 

> i will supply you with new adventers,sure you will doubt my competense

> and free spirt but i know.  i see you cry your yearning for more but i

> will comfort you in your time of need. sure i can move to france and

> write a book and make you stand on end for more but am i capable of much

> more. yes my brothers and sisters i am. thsi isn't jerry okay, its his

> son thats using this account, im not using this to get stock quotes or

> info about important info, im using this to trade info, isn't this what

> its all about, sure you can try to braeak me down with your words and

> thoughts but i won't give, you see i'm tired of your conformist views.

> break away from what you know, embark upon something unknown (if u found

> this list then i know you are competent) lets start something here some

> thing brand spanking "NEW"!!!!!!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 04:47:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Marie/insomnia

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Marie:

 

Just thought I would let you know that insomnia seems to be making the

rounds these nights.

 

Insomnia

 

Is it the dream-stress,

Or the stress-dream,

Awakening me?

Either/neither, doesn't matter.

I am awake.

Thoughts that will not rest,

Drive tension.

Not really worried,

Just can't go back to sleep.

(Can't believe someone would put

A contraction in a poem!)

Anyway, all I really meant to say is,

"Brothers and Sisters of the sleepless nights,

Let us unite and fight,

On a seemless, sleepless, web."

Good night,

Sleep tight.

Insomniacs all.

 

Oh, and has anyone seen Lisa?

I dream of her while I am awake.

Last I heard, she was in Denver.

Living with her mother,

Just like when we were in high school.

 

Bentz Kirby 11/08/97 @4:45 am.  Sleepless n Columbia.

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:26:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

In-Reply-To:  <34643514.586EA9AC@scsn.net>

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Stopped at the new Borders at 57th and Park and was glad to see they had

a large Kerouac sampling on the shelf, including "Bootlegged Kerouac", a

bibliography by none other than Rod Anstee.  Rod does a good job of

listing some of the rare Kerouac that is out there.  Only quibble I had

is the price of $13 bucks...way too much for a little booklet that

probably cost a buck to print.  Rod may be trying to profiteer?

 

Also two indie books from John Montgomery, about Kerouac.  One is a

book of reminisces, dedicated to Gerry Nicosia, who contributes to it.

Ive not seen these titles anywhere else.  Plan to go back and read some

of them when I have more time.

 

 

Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:48:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

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Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> Stopped at the new Borders at 57th and Park and was glad to see they had

> a large Kerouac sampling on the shelf, including "Bootlegged Kerouac", a

> bibliography by none other than Rod Anstee.  Rod does a good job of

> listing some of the rare Kerouac that is out there.  Only quibble I had

> is the price of $13 bucks...way too much for a little booklet that

> probably cost a buck to print.  Rod may be trying to profiteer?

> <snip>

> Richard W.

 

Wouldn't the publisher set the price?  Plus you got to figure you are not

going to sell a lot, so I figure, it would have to be an adequate price.

But, I know nothing about retailing or wholesaleing books.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:56:45 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

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> James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Maybe I'm like a monk in the time of Gutenberg, lamenting the passage

> of

> manuscripts which show the soul of the skillful hand that did them for

> the soulless printing press.  But do we have to have access to a band

> to

> write, or to hone our geek skills so that we can work in a Web

> environment, or the money needed to do film?  Good old pen and paper

> was

> so easy in some ways.  I hope that we always have it and that the old

> medium keeps drawing some of the best talent.  Whatever is to happen to

> the novel, we still at least have the poem.

> 

> Pondering on the left coast.

 

I guess that leaves me here pondering on the right coast.  For all the

hoopla concerning the possibilities of technology, the next genius writer

to come along may write in a computer, but his or her words will still

impact the world on the printed pages of a book.  Look at all the

directions art has taken in terms of multi-media possibilities, and yet

there are still painters painting on canvas.  The naked meaning of words

on paper will never die no matter what kinds of art are produced on

computers, film, etc.  I don't believe that the great American novel of

the twentieth century has been written yet.  Whether it is writen by a

man or a woman, when it is, the genius will be recognized.

 

This whole "another Kerouac" thread reminds me of an essay by Kerouac on

"Are Writers Made or Born?"  The essay brings up many interesting

questions about what makes up great writing and how the genius of a

particular person will stand out no matter whether they are writing an

article for a magazine, poetry, essays, or a novel.  It also brings up

the idea of the genius of the beats and whether or not they were geniuses

or simply talented.

 

>From "Are Writer's Made or Born?" by Jack Kerouac:

 

"Writers are made, for anybody who isn't illiterate can write; but

geniuses of the writing art like Mellville, Whitman or Thoreau are born.

 Let's examine the word 'genius.' It doesn't mean screwiness or

eccentricity or excessive 'talent.' It is derived from the Latin word

'gignere' (to beget) and a genius is simply a person who 'originates'

something never known before.  Nobody but Melville could have written

Moby Dick, not even Whitman or Shakespeare.  Nobody but Whitman could

have conceived, originated and written Leaves of Grass; Whitman was born

to write a Leaves of Grass and Melville was born to write a Moby Dick.

'It ain't whacha do,' Sy Oliver and James young said, 'it's the way atcha

do it.' Five thousand writing-class students who study 'required reading'

can put their hand to the legend of Faustus but only one Marlowe was born

to do it the way he did.

        I always get a laugh to hear Broadway wiseguys talk about

'talent' and 'genius.'  Some perfect virtuoso who can interpret Brahms on

the violin is called a 'genius,' but the genius, the originating force,

really belongs to Brahms; the violin virtuoso is simply a talented

interpretor--in other words, a 'Talent.'  Or you'll hear people say that

so-and-so is a 'major writer' because of his 'large talent.' There can be

no major writer without original genius.  Artists of genius, like Jackson

Pollock have painted things that have never been seen before.  Anybody's

who's seen his immense Samapattis of color has no right to criticize his

'crazy method' of splashing and throwing and dancing around.

        Take the case of James Joyce: people said he 'wasted' his

'talent' on the stream of consciousness style, when in fact he was simply

'born' to originate it.  How would you like to spend your old age reading

books about contemporary life written in the pre-Joycean style of, say,

Ruskin, or William Dean Howells or Taine?  Some geniuses come with heavy

feet and march solemnly forward like Dreiser, yet no one ever wrote about

the America of his as well as he.  Geniuses can be scintillating and

geniuses can be somber, but it's the inescapeable sorrowful depth that

shines through--originality.

        Joyce was insulted all his life by practically all of Ireland and

the world for being a genius.  Some Celtic Twilight idiots even conceded

he had 'some' talent.  What else could they say, since they were all

going to start imitating him? But five thousand university-trained

writers could put their hand to a day in June in Dublin in 1904, or one

night's dreams, and never do with it what Joyce did with it; he was

simply born to do it.  On the other hand, if five thousand 'trained'

writers, plus Joyce all put their hands to a 'Reader's Digest'-type

article about 'Vacation Hints' or 'Homemaker's Tips,' even then Joyce

would stand out because of his inborn originality of language insight.

Bear well in mind what Sinclair Lewis told Thomas Wolfe: 'If Thomas Hardy

had been given a contract to write stories for 'The Saturday Evening

Post,' do you think he would have written like Zane Grey or like Thomas

Hardy? I can tell you the answer to that one.  He would have written like

Thomas Hardy.  He couldn't have written like anyone else but Thomas

Hardy.  He would have kept on writing like Thomas Hardy, whether he wrote

for 'The Saturday Evening Post' or 'Captain Billy's Whiz-Bang.''

        When the question is therefore asked, 'Are writers made or born?'

one should first ask, 'Do you mean writers with talent or writers with

orginality?' Because anybody can write, but not everyone invents new

forms of writing.  Gertrude Stein invented a new form of writing and her

imitators were just 'talents.' Hemingway later invented his own form

also.  The criterion for judging talent or genius is ephemeral, speaking

rationally in this world of graphs, but one gets the feeling definitely

when a writer of genius amazes him by strokes of force never before seen

and yet hauntingly familiar (Wilson's famous shock of recognition).  I

got that feeling from 'Swann's Way, as well as from 'Sons and Lovers.' I

do not get it from Colette, but I do get it from Dickinson.  I get it

from Celine, but I do not get it to Camus.  I get it from Hemingway, but

not from Raymond Chandler, except when he's dead serious.  I get it from

the Balzac of 'Cousin Bette,' but not from Pierre Loti.  And so on.

        The main thing to remember is that talent imitates genius because

there's nothing to do but imitate, or interpret.  The poety on page 2 of

the 'New York Times,' with all its 'silent wings of urgency in a dark and

seldom wood' and other lapidary trillings, is but a poor imitation of

previous poets of genius, like Yeats, Dickinson, Apollinaire, Donne,

Suckling...

        Genius gives birth, talent delivers.  What Rembrandt or Van Gogh

saw in the night can never be seen again.  No frog can jump in a pond

like Basho's frog. 'Born' writers of the future are amazed already at

what they are seeing now, what we'll all see in time for the first time,

and then see imitated many times by 'made' writers.

        So in the case of a born writer, genius involves the original

formation of a new style.  Though the language of Kyd is Elizabethan as

far as the period goes, the language of Shakespeare can truly be called

only 'Shakespearean.  Oftentimes an originator of new language forms is

called 'pretentious' by jealous talents.  But it ain't whatcha write,

it's the way atcha write it."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:44:40 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The cost of a book is not determined just by the amount it costs to print

it.  How about the work that the author put into writing the book?  Should

he not get paid for his efforts or should we always set prices based on

material costs alone (that certainly would lower the cost of all consumer

products)?

 

Irving Leif

 

 

At 10:26 AM 11/8/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Stopped at the new Borders at 57th and Park and was glad to see they had

>a large Kerouac sampling on the shelf, including "Bootlegged Kerouac", a

>bibliography by none other than Rod Anstee.  Rod does a good job of

>listing some of the rare Kerouac that is out there.  Only quibble I had

>is the price of $13 bucks...way too much for a little booklet that

>probably cost a buck to print.  Rod may be trying to profiteer?

> 

>Also two indie books from John Montgomery, about Kerouac.  One is a

>book of reminisces, dedicated to Gerry Nicosia, who contributes to it.

>Ive not seen these titles anywhere else.  Plan to go back and read some

>of them when I have more time.

> 

> 

>Richard W.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:13:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971108102159.10561A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Oh, I was at that Border's this past week to see Kurt Vonnegut. Places

like that literally make me feel ill. I think I'll stick to my independent

bookseller, thankyouverymuch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> Stopped at the new Borders at 57th and Park and was glad to see they had

> a large Kerouac sampling on the shelf, including "Bootlegged Kerouac", a

> bibliography by none other than Rod Anstee.  Rod does a good job of

> listing some of the rare Kerouac that is out there.  Only quibble I had

> is the price of $13 bucks...way too much for a little booklet that

> probably cost a buck to print.  Rod may be trying to profiteer?

> 

> Also two indie books from John Montgomery, about Kerouac.  One is a

> book of reminisces, dedicated to Gerry Nicosia, who contributes to it.

> Ive not seen these titles anywhere else.  Plan to go back and read some

> of them when I have more time.

> 

> 

> Richard W.

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:53:56 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      leon!

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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jim stauffer wrote:

James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Leon,

> 

> Thank God you did not stop sooner.  This post is one of the best

> things

> I have read on Beat-L in a long time.  You have some very insightful

> things to say on the relationship between author and work, fact and

> larger truths, hypothesis and felt attitudes

 

*******ha! you've been caught now!!! outloud and in public. you ARE a

writer, dammit.and a damned fine one.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:42:32 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

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paul- you certainly did take your liberties with this pome. i like

the honesty, haven't seen such a vivid picture about that subject

anywhere since i

read visions of cody (the part in the beginning where the first word

in the paragraph is masturbation, in CAPS). if any one is offended, i

urge you not to be because paul has done something magnifecent with this

pome: giving another narrative to a story.

enjoying everyone's excellent poetry,

randy

 

> At 05:24 AM 11/8/97 UT, you wrote:

> >somehow i missed this poem.  WOW!!! Marlene,  you GOT IT!!  thanks for

 sharing

> >it!!       ~sherri

> >

> >

> >for years                                for years

> >those frozen tears                       those frozen beers

> >those silent screams                     made me scream

> >

> >longing, aching                          my loins are longing, aching

> >

> >in dreams                                in dreams

> >body melting                             ice cream melting

> >feet sticking to the floor               hands sticking to the door

> >desperately running for the door         puddles oozing onto the floor

> >from the mad Moloch                      from my mad mother

> >of middle class                          before my class

> >candy ass                                she spanks my ass

> >moronic mindlessness                     a mindless moron

> >

> >bound in chains                          wound in chains

> >of Amerika's mad whoreship               locked in the closet

> >of $$$ worship                           my Dad's Playboys I worshiped

> warship                            monkeyspank

> >

> >sway my hips                             I sprayed her hips

> >kiss my lips                             parted her lips

> >take me away                             took her away

> >from this insanity play                  to my room, under the mattress

> >where candles don't drip                 where penises drip

> >and people don't trip                    and shoestrings made me trip

> >

> >where the black hole                     where the black hole

> >of Amerikan society                      of a lowell whore

> >                        s  u  c   k    s

> >like a Hoover vacuum cleaner

> >                   q    u     i    c    k     s     a      n    d

> >through her private area like a quagmire

> >telling me to be discrete because my mother's in the next room

> >blinding me with her dirty underwear

> >

> >we wallow in

> >her filthy clamor

> >and the more i struggle

> >the tighter

> >                she

> >                        squeezes

> >                                      my

> >                                                b  a  l  l  s   **

> 

> 

> >>

> >>     POETICIDE-- a writer's hallucination

> >>

> >>      i sat in my room     with jack kerouac last night

> >>               and i digitally

> >>    manipulated my hole

> >>    and listened to the slapping of my

> >>                mad

> >>        cracked

> >>               calloused

> >>      hands -- the invention

> >>      the vibrating phallus

> >>      the ONLY true instrument of pleasure...

> >>       tossed my hair in a bun

> >>     wrapped myself in dirty cotton linens

> >>     ate out of an old bum's hands    and laughed out loud

> >>           i want to hear

> >>          the unceasing droan of the vibrator and clickety click...

> >>       it warms under my frenzied fingers

> >>         but its the low hum now of dying batteries

> >>         and the silence of my dismay

> >>         marshmallow mess in the palm of my hands

> >>         insomnia and dead batteries--

> >>      the reformation of a growing longing

> >>                    i'm glowing inside these tight blue jeans.

> >>       writing my name in the sand with a stream of urine

> >>         or the blue knit carpet of my room

> >>      my split-level crack

> >>      my split-level nethers

> >>             my aching jizz

> >>              my drippy slippy lilting finger that moves

> >>         with my moods

> >>              and slides through my elastic waistband like melted moons

> >>       I want to get drunk!

> >>       I want to get high!

> >>          suck **** and kiss someone i hardly know

> >>       smell the carbon monooxide

> >>            inhale the driveway aromatic cloud of death

> >>            the neighbor's dog is happy

> >>           caricatured moonlight       spiderlight dances

> >>      Oh! I leave the enigine running, door closed

> >>            piece of stained glass freedom

> >>            piece of ass I am no more       and frozen highway

> >>      Oh blue rain and sunday mornings I am a bore

> >>                memories of church choir and pancake breakfeast

> >> i wish i didn't know where i'll be when i throw up.

> >>      Oh jack,

> >>                i need to feel hot milky floodbath sliding down my throat

> >>                   make semen drip with eyes closed.

> >>                 i would've liked to seen your face

> >>                         your drunksad eyes

>                                getting drunker

>                            so that you don't have to read my poetry

> 

> 

> >>        i feel like a woman

> >>                                and i'm still naked.

> >>

> 

> I took my liberties with this...I thought I would share my own poetic gifts.

> Paul....

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:11:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971108102159.10561A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> Also two indie books from John Montgomery, about Kerouac.  One is a

> book of reminisces, dedicated to Gerry Nicosia, who contributes to it.

> Ive not seen these titles anywhere else.  Plan to go back and read some

> of them when I have more time.

 

Do you remember the titles of these books?  I've been trying to find some

stuff by Montgomery since reading of Henry Morley in Dharma Bums.  Also,

to anybody, does anyone have some info they can share with me about

Montgomery or some books with info they can refer me to?

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:13:56 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:41:37 -0500 from <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

 

On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:41:37 -0500 Dennis Cardwell said:

>Thanks, Donahue!  Post-modernism leaves us older folks feeling as if our

>world is already gone.  The essayists who get such short shrift today are

>indeed carrying on a tradition begun far before the beats, but not ignored by

>them.  The Best American Essays series is outstanding with a different editor

>each year, the newest 1997 is now available in paperback.   Haven't dipped

>into it yet, but I know much joy and enlightenment awaits.  I usually read

>the BAE series in order of essay length, shortest to longest, and quit when I

>realize an essay is out of my interest area, skip to the next.  Poetic

>indeed.  Most of these writers are true craftsmen(persons) using words with

>the precision and sure skill expected of brain surgeons.  Other such

>anthologies are available in big book stores.   EVERYONE SHOULD READ jOSEPH

>MITCHELL's Up In the Old Hotel, if only for the major league, major lead

>essay on McSorley's.  Kisses, starfishes, and knishes! DCard

 

 

 I second this recommendation:  Mitchell's book is wonderful.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:21:39 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      book prices

 

Actually, $13 bucks for a small press book is a pretty good price.  It's not go

ing to sell much so the publisher has to factor in the copies he'll have to eat

.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:19:16 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>I don't believe that the great American novel of

>the twentieth century has been written yet.

***

Oh-oh.

 

Time's running out.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:29:13 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

In-Reply-To:  Message of Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:11:54 -0500 from

              <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

 

If anyone has the full citation for Anstee's book, please post it.  I'd

like to order it.  Jeff, do you have it?  John Montgomery aka Henry

Morley, Alex Fairbrother was a wonderful character immortalized by

Kerouac in Dharma Bums and Desolation Angels.  Librarian, post office

worker, poet and publisher, he released four books about Kerouac that I

know of:  Jack Kerouac: a memoir....(1970), Kerouac West Coast: a

Bohemian Pilot (1976), The Kerouac We Knew (1982), and Kerouac at the

Wild Boar (1986).  All are published by Fels & Firn Press.  I

corresponded with Montgomery for about fifteen years off and on.  I was

always a pleasure to get his post cards and letters, usually typed with

an italic script.  I spent a day in Palo Alto with him where we talked

about his relationship with Kerouac.  He also let me tape his copies of

the Hanover recordings.  Several years ago, while I was at a conference

in San Francisco, I meant to call him to see if we could get together

again.  When I returned home, I found that he had died.  The last I

heard his daughter was going to publish a collections of memoirs about

her father.  Does anyone know if this collections was indeed published?

It would be a nice idea to mount it on Literary Kicks, maybe, or else

post it here on Beat-l?  Anyone else have any stories about John?

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:04:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997110814433921@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:29 PM 11/8/97 EST, you wrote:

>If anyone has the full citation for Anstee's book, please post it.  I'd

>like to order it.  Jeff, do you have it?  John Montgomery aka Henry

>Morley, Alex Fairbrother was a wonderful character immortalized by

>Kerouac in Dharma Bums and Desolation Angels.  Librarian, post office

>worker, poet and publisher, he released four books about Kerouac that I

>know of:  Jack Kerouac: a memoir....(1970), Kerouac West Coast: a

>Bohemian Pilot (1976), The Kerouac We Knew (1982), and Kerouac at the

>Wild Boar (1986).  All are published by Fels & Firn Press.  I

>corresponded with Montgomery for about fifteen years off and on.  I was

>always a pleasure to get his post cards and letters, usually typed with

>an italic script.  I spent a day in Palo Alto with him where we talked

>about his relationship with Kerouac.  He also let me tape his copies of

>the Hanover recordings.  Several years ago, while I was at a conference

>in San Francisco, I meant to call him to see if we could get together

>again.  When I returned home, I found that he had died.  The last I

>heard his daughter was going to publish a collections of memoirs about

>her father.  Does anyone know if this collections was indeed published?

>It would be a nice idea to mount it on Literary Kicks, maybe, or else

>post it here on Beat-l?  Anyone else have any stories about John?

 

Check out this archived beat news memoir of John Montgomery by Jim Stedman.

Thanks to Levi Asher, Phil

 

http://www.charm.net/%7Ebrooklyn/Topics/StedmanOnMontgomery.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:13:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

Comments: To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997110814433921@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

The books of Montgomery at Borders were "Kerouac at the Wild Boar" and

"The Kerouac we knew"

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:21:20 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         gary grismore <grismore.3@OSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly Sample Copies

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

> Hi! I hope those of you who have asked for sample copies have started

> to

> receive them. We still have a few left. Just ask...the web page has

> been

> updated, go to:

> 

>   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

> 

>                            Thanks and enjoy...

>                                   yours truly, Paul of TKQ. . .

> 

>     Stay tuned for December's Kerouac Cover of the Month. . .

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our

> virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

I would be interested if still available.  Thanks!!

Gary Grismore

279 E Royal Forest Blvd

Columbus, OH  43214

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:24:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:26 AM 11/8/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Stopped at the new Borders at 57th and Park and was glad to see they had

>a large Kerouac sampling on the shelf, including "Bootlegged Kerouac", a

>bibliography by none other than Rod Anstee.  Rod does a good job of

>listing some of the rare Kerouac that is out there.  Only quibble I had

>is the price of $13 bucks...way too much for a little booklet that

>probably cost a buck to print.  Rod may be trying to profiteer?

> 

>Also two indie books from John Montgomery, about Kerouac.  One is a

>book of reminisces, dedicated to Gerry Nicosia, who contributes to it.

>Ive not seen these titles anywhere else.  Plan to go back and read some

>of them when I have more time.

> 

> 

>Richard W.

>The cost shouldn't figure into it. The time spent on research, writing,

editing, and preparing for publication creates a situation that makes your

profit less than minimum wage when you compare the hours spent. Support

those who develop items to nurture your interest. God knows the real

publishers won't always do so. paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:36:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Marie/insomnia

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 04:47 AM 11/8/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Marie:

> 

>Just thought I would let you know that insomnia seems to be making the

>rounds these nights.

> 

>Insomnia

> 

>Is it the seamstress,

>Or the stress-seam,

>Awakening me?

>Either/neither, does not matter.

>I am awake.

>my roaming hands that will not rest,

>Drive into my pajama bottoms.

>Not really worried about my stiff sheets,

>Just can't go back to sleep.

>(Can't believe someone would put

>A contraction in a birth!)

>Anyway, all I really meant to say is,

>"Brothers and Sisters of the sleepless nights,

>Let us unite and grasp,

>On a seemless, sleepless, veined chalice."

>Good night,Mommy says

>Sleep tight.

>monologists all.

> 

>Oh, and has anyone seen Lisa?

>I dream of her while I spank.

>Last I heard, she was in Denver.

>Living with her mother,

>Just like when we were in high school.

> 

>Bentz Kirby 11/08/97 @4:45 am.  Sleepless n Columbia.

> 

>--

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

> 

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:18:09 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: John Montgomery

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> John Montgomery aka Henry

> Morley, Alex Fairbrother was a wonderful character immortalized by

> Kerouac in Dharma Bums and Desolation Angels.  Librarian, post office

> worker, poet and publisher, he released four books about Kerouac that I

> know of:  Jack Kerouac: a memoir....(1970), Kerouac West Coast: a

> Bohemian Pilot (1976), The Kerouac We Knew (1982), and Kerouac at the

> Wild Boar (1986).  All are published by Fels & Firn Press.

> Several years ago, while I was at a conference

> in San Francisco, I meant to call him to see if we could get together

> again.  When I returned home, I found that he had died.  The last I

> heard his daughter was going to publish a collections of memoirs about

> her father.  Does anyone know if this collections was indeed published?

 

Montgomery's daughter, Laura M. Petersen, published "A Man Of Letters:

Montgomery Remembered" in 1993, also through Fels & Firn Press.  It

features 73 memorials from Montgomery's varied colleagues and

correspondents, famous and private.  The address for Fels & Firn Press is

PO Box 10311, Pleasanton, CA 94588.

 

Regards,

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:35:45 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Randy,

 

I was about to send Gery Nicosia a congratulations note! Finally he won

the

conest. He failed to convince me that Paul was an asshole. But now Paul

himself showed me his colors. The color of shit, splashed all over a

poem

that is so delicate and beautiful, it leaves me breathless. And comes

some

shit balls thrown all over it,  just like some thing I could expect from

some vulgar bully kids. With feigned immitating nasal twangs to boot.

Phewey. Disgusting.

 

So I read your post. Aah, somebody anticipates offended folks. But you

have

some explanation. Some magnificent honesty even. So I go back to look

again.

What? Where is it? Nothing redeeming at all. I suggest you read Sherri's

heart song again, without the filth that is trying to attach itself to

it.

 

O.K. Gery I get your point. I don't mind Paul's criminal record, but

what he

is doing to Sherri's beautiful poem is maybe what people have in mind

when

they say it's a crime.

 

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 9:50 AM

Subject: Re: pome

 

 

paul- you certainly did take your liberties with this pome. i like

the honesty, haven't seen such a vivid picture about that subject

anywhere since i

read visions of cody (the part in the beginning where the first word

in the paragraph is masturbation, in CAPS). if any one is offended, i

urge you not to be because paul has done something magnifecent with this

pome: giving another narrative to a story.

enjoying everyone's excellent poetry,

randy

 

> At 05:24 AM 11/8/97 UT, you wrote:

> >somehow i missed this poem.  WOW!!! Marlene,  you GOT IT!!  thanks

for

sharing

> >it!!       ~sherri

> >

> >

> >for years                                for years

> >those frozen tears                       those frozen beers

> >those silent screams                     made me scream

> >

> >longing, aching                          my loins are longing, aching

> >

> >in dreams                                in dreams

> >body melting                             ice cream melting

> >feet sticking to the floor               hands sticking to the door

> >desperately running for the door         puddles oozing onto the

floor

> >from the mad Moloch                      from my mad mother

> >of middle class                          before my class

> >candy ass                                she spanks my ass

> >moronic mindlessness                     a mindless moron

> >

> >bound in chains                          wound in chains

> >of Amerika's mad whoreship               locked in the closet

> >of $$$ worship                           my Dad's Playboys I

worshiped

> warship                            monkeyspank

> >

> >sway my hips                             I sprayed her hips

> >kiss my lips                             parted her lips

> >take me away                             took her away

> >from this insanity play                  to my room, under the

mattress

> >where candles don't drip                 where penises drip

> >and people don't trip                    and shoestrings made me trip

> >

> >where the black hole                     where the black hole

> >of Amerikan society                      of a lowell whore

> >                        s  u  c   k    s

> >like a Hoover vacuum cleaner

> >                   q    u     i    c    k     s     a      n    d

> >through her private area like a quagmire

> >telling me to be discrete because my mother's in the next room

> >blinding me with her dirty underwear

> >

> >we wallow in

> >her filthy clamor

> >and the more i struggle

> >the tighter

> >                she

> >                        squeezes

> >                                      my

> >                                                b  a  l  l  s   **

> 

> 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:15:15 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Bob is back

 

Saw Dylan perform last night in Columbus, Ohio. The man is back with a

vengence, I have never seen a livlier performance from the man. He did five

encores including 'Like A Rolling Stone' and 'Alabama Get Away.' In a year that

took so many great people off the planet, it was fine to see that Dylan had

survived whatever strange virus he had and is back, renewed, playing strong.

 

Dave B.

 

ps, Lucky Columbusites also get to see Jim Carrol tonight at ten pm.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:15:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <3463A228.4E16@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>i suspect that there will not be another Keroacu per se.  He is in a

>time and place of his own and the timelessness will be linked to that

>time and place.

> 

>it seems to me that some of the most important questions are asked in

>the journal notes of WSB reprinted in the New Yorker some time ago.

>Where can we go with the novel?

> 

>it seems to me -- and i've been beginning to discuss this some with a

>friend in LA -- the next phase is not through the traditional publishers

>but through the wonders of the technology we're using right now.  the

>possibilities for non-linearity by way of HTML linkages (i have no idea

>what HTML means :)), allowing linearity and non-linearity to exist in

>the same space seems promising.  the possibilities of incorporating the

>wonderful work that has been done with spoken word -- and its mixture

>with musics -- with the words themselves in terms of page and audio are

>a loving future prospect (perhaps not future -- perhaps now -- but since

>i don't have a sound card as of yet, it is still future for me) -- the

>possibilities of connecting the visual with the word and the sound all

>in linkages that connect the traditional format of writing with the

>forms that are mentioned as distractions from the traditional format

>above all seem wonderful avenues for exploration.

> 

>i have to wonder sometimes about Kerouac and company if they had been

>alive in this time.  i can't imagine that they would not have been

>connected to these technological innovations that allow for the

>traditional forms and yet offer possibilities far from the conventional

>as well.

> 

>just some random thinking....

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

> 

 

Yet this same technology may also hinder the emergence of "genius".

Bukowski was once asked, "Will the future bring more or fewer geniuses?"

Bukowski replied, "Less." Why? Hank answered, "Because of communication.

Everyone is seeing the same things, reading the same things, therefore

having the same thoughts."

 

Makes sense, yes?

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:10:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Have you ever heard of bawdiness? Satire? Scatology? Or are you so immersed

in how you feel about things that it means it must be so for all......I feel

nothing for GEN-X angst pinings.....I hope you really hate me now. And who

the hell is trying to win a contest? There was never a "contest." But if the

contest is to see who the biggest "asshole" is I hope I won hands down...Love,P

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:42:54 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      "sentence first, then the verdict!"

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

leon: i guess you are right though.

and paul, since you used so  many liberties, it really would have

given you a lot more credibility from more people. now that i read it

again, it sounds more like a crude satire. i apologize most sincerly

to Sherri for being to hasty to judge your excellent work.

feeling like the red queen,

randall

 

> Randy,

> 

> I was about to send Gery Nicosia a congratulations note! Finally he won

> the

> conest. He failed to convince me that Paul was an asshole. But now Paul

> himself showed me his colors. The color of shit, splashed all over a

> poem

> that is so delicate and beautiful, it leaves me breathless. And comes

> some

> shit balls thrown all over it,  just like some thing I could expect from

> some vulgar bully kids. With feigned immitating nasal twangs to boot.

> Phewey. Disgusting.

> 

> So I read your post. Aah, somebody anticipates offended folks. But you

> have

> some explanation. Some magnificent honesty even. So I go back to look

> again.

> What? Where is it? Nothing redeeming at all. I suggest you read Sherri's

> heart song again, without the filth that is trying to attach itself to

> it.

> 

> O.K. Gery I get your point. I don't mind Paul's criminal record, but

> what he

> is doing to Sherri's beautiful poem is maybe what people have in mind

> when

> they say it's a crime.

> 

> leon

> -----Original Message-----

> From: randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 9:50 AM

> Subject: Re: pome

> 

> 

> paul- you certainly did take your liberties with this pome. i like

> the honesty, haven't seen such a vivid picture about that subject

> anywhere since i

> read visions of cody (the part in the beginning where the first word

> in the paragraph is masturbation, in CAPS). if any one is offended, i

> urge you not to be because paul has done something magnifecent with this

> pome: giving another narrative to a story.

> enjoying everyone's excellent poetry,

> randy

> 

> > At 05:24 AM 11/8/97 UT, you wrote:

> > >somehow i missed this poem.  WOW!!! Marlene,  you GOT IT!!  thanks

> for

> sharing

> > >it!!       ~sherri

> > >

> > >

> > >for years                                for years

> > >those frozen tears                       those frozen beers

> > >those silent screams                     made me scream

> > >

> > >longing, aching                          my loins are longing, aching

> > >

> > >in dreams                                in dreams

> > >body melting                             ice cream melting

> > >feet sticking to the floor               hands sticking to the door

> > >desperately running for the door         puddles oozing onto the

> floor

> > >from the mad Moloch                      from my mad mother

> > >of middle class                          before my class

> > >candy ass                                she spanks my ass

> > >moronic mindlessness                     a mindless moron

> > >

> > >bound in chains                          wound in chains

> > >of Amerika's mad whoreship               locked in the closet

> > >of $$$ worship                           my Dad's Playboys I

> worshiped

> > warship                            monkeyspank

> > >

> > >sway my hips                             I sprayed her hips

> > >kiss my lips                             parted her lips

> > >take me away                             took her away

> > >from this insanity play                  to my room, under the

> mattress

> > >where candles don't drip                 where penises drip

> > >and people don't trip                    and shoestrings made me trip

> > >

> > >where the black hole                     where the black hole

> > >of Amerikan society                      of a lowell whore

> > >                        s  u  c   k    s

> > >like a Hoover vacuum cleaner

> > >                   q    u     i    c    k     s     a      n    d

> > >through her private area like a quagmire

> > >telling me to be discrete because my mother's in the next room

> > >blinding me with her dirty underwear

> > >

> > >we wallow in

> > >her filthy clamor

> > >and the more i struggle

> > >the tighter

> > >                she

> > >                        squeezes

> > >                                      my

> > >                                                b  a  l  l  s   **

> >

> >

> 

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:53:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M .Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:11 PM 08/11/97 -0500, Alex Howard wrote:

 

>Do you remember the titles of these books?  I've

>been trying to find some stuff by Montgomery since

>reading of Henry Morley in Dharma Bums.  Also,

>to anybody, does anyone have some info they can

>share with me about Montgomery or some books

>with info they can refer me to?

 

1. Jack Kerouac: A Memoir

2. Kerouac West Coast

3. The Kerouac We Knew

 

I saw one of these on my usual haunt this morning.

I can't remember which one.  I hope this is a help.

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:57:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M .Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bob is back

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:15 PM 08/11/97 EST, Dave B  wrote:

 

>Saw Dylan perform last night in Columbus, Ohio.

>The man is back with a vengence, I have never seen a

>livlier performance from the man.

 

He never left. . .

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:20:50 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      marlene's poem and ginsberg

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  I really liked Marlene's poem which was posted recently. It's so

simple yet so beautiful.

  I'm new to the whole Beat-L scene, but I like it a lot.  There's not

a whole lot of interest in the Beats on my campus, and right now I'm

up to my ears in Allen Ginsberg, working on this anthology for my

honors comp. class.  Does anyone know where I could find a copy of

Ginsberg's "Fame and Death" on-line? I've been searching for weeks and

can't seem to find it anywhere.

  If you can help me out, e-mail me!

                   Maggie G.

"Well, while I'm here I'll do the work-and what's the Work? To ease

the pain of living. Everything else, drunken dumbshow." Allen Ginsberg

"Memory Gardens"

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:35:49 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: marlene's poem and ginsberg

In-Reply-To:  Message of Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:20:50 -0800 from

              <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

 

I'm pretty sure it's online at the Naropa Institute's Ginsberg Memorial page.

If you don't find it, email me at wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu.   I had a copy on disk

 but don't know if I kept it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:00:20 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

Paul - my poem, which was the first of the two you chose to "play" with has

absolutely nothing to do with gen-x,  i'm nearly 40, not even close to the

gen-xers.  why don't you use your bawdiness from scratch?  or can you not

start with a blank page?  had i read your poem as something you simply did of

your own and without the constant need to denigrate, i probably would have

loved it.  as it is, it loses any steam hit has.  have a nice evening, i hope

your pad isn't too semen encrusted.       sex & drugs & rock-n-roll, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Paul A. Maher Jr.

Sent:   Saturday, November 08, 1997 4:10 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

Have you ever heard of bawdiness? Satire? Scatology? Or are you so immersed

in how you feel about things that it means it must be so for all......I feel

nothing for GEN-X angst pinings.....I hope you really hate me now. And who

the hell is trying to win a contest? There was never a "contest." But if the

contest is to see who the biggest "asshole" is I hope I won hands

down...Love,P

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:10:08 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Marlene's and sherri's poems

 

just to set the record straight (since there appears to be some confusion),

there are two poems in Paul Maher's scatological "playfulness",  the shorter

untitled one at the top is mine.  Marlene's is called "Poeticide - a writer's

hallucination".

 

thanks,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:36:55 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

 

Buk has a point,  but i've noticed that through communicating with people via

the internet, i'm getting whole new vistas opened up as to how people from

different regions and countries view life, what they value, etc.  for me it's

broadening things, which, i would think, for someone of true genius, would be

like being in a candy store as big as a city block.

 

ciao,  sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Glenn Cooper

Sent:   Saturday, November 08, 1997 3:15 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

 

>i suspect that there will not be another Keroacu per se.  He is in a

>time and place of his own and the timelessness will be linked to that

>time and place.

> 

>it seems to me that some of the most important questions are asked in

>the journal notes of WSB reprinted in the New Yorker some time ago.

>Where can we go with the novel?

> 

>it seems to me -- and i've been beginning to discuss this some with a

>friend in LA -- the next phase is not through the traditional publishers

>but through the wonders of the technology we're using right now.  the

>possibilities for non-linearity by way of HTML linkages (i have no idea

>what HTML means :)), allowing linearity and non-linearity to exist in

>the same space seems promising.  the possibilities of incorporating the

>wonderful work that has been done with spoken word -- and its mixture

>with musics -- with the words themselves in terms of page and audio are

>a loving future prospect (perhaps not future -- perhaps now -- but since

>i don't have a sound card as of yet, it is still future for me) -- the

>possibilities of connecting the visual with the word and the sound all

>in linkages that connect the traditional format of writing with the

>forms that are mentioned as distractions from the traditional format

>above all seem wonderful avenues for exploration.

> 

>i have to wonder sometimes about Kerouac and company if they had been

>alive in this time.  i can't imagine that they would not have been

>connected to these technological innovations that allow for the

>traditional forms and yet offer possibilities far from the conventional

>as well.

> 

>just some random thinking....

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

> 

 

Yet this same technology may also hinder the emergence of "genius".

Bukowski was once asked, "Will the future bring more or fewer geniuses?"

Bukowski replied, "Less." Why? Hank answered, "Because of communication.

Everyone is seeing the same things, reading the same things, therefore

having the same thoughts."

 

Makes sense, yes?

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:02:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

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Leon:

 

I think that the poem was actually by Marlene.  I am not real pleased with

the liberties taken with my little tribute to Marie.  I meant it as a

message of love to her, and while nothing is sacred, I care not for what

Paul did to it.  That's for sure.

 

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

 

> Randy,

> 

> I was about to send Gery Nicosia a congratulations note! Finally he won

> the

> conest. He failed to convince me that Paul was an asshole. But now Paul

> himself showed me his colors. The color of shit, splashed all over a

> poem

> that is so delicate and beautiful, it leaves me breathless. And comes

> some

> shit balls thrown all over it,  just like some thing I could expect from

> some vulgar bully kids. With feigned immitating nasal twangs to boot.

> Phewey. Disgusting.

> 

> So I read your post. Aah, somebody anticipates offended folks. But you

> have

> some explanation. Some magnificent honesty even. So I go back to look

> again.

> What? Where is it? Nothing redeeming at all. I suggest you read Sherri's

> heart song again, without the filth that is trying to attach itself to

> it.

> <snip>

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:43:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      hearing the spoken word

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     I just had Michael Czarnecki, from the list, over for a reading

tonight here at the University, and I must say it's moments like these

that rekindle my faith in the lifeblood of the spoken word.  Michael

read and we followed with anyone who wanted to read their stuff, I read

some Kerouac pieces that seemed to go over really well.  there were

only 6 people there, but it was great just the same.  Curious about

other's experience as performers, hosts, or audience members at spoken

word performances.  Four of us had read Kerouac and this event was

billed as being beat related at all.  Optimistic as far as jack is

concerned.  It's interesting to witness the difference between the

large crowd and intimate group... interesting... thanks to Michael for

carrying the poetic torch, and I highly commend and recommend his work

as a poet, and as a person with a wonderful sense of the beauriful

dharma of life.  I'm inspired to hit the road.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:20:16 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

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Hmmm...

 

I don't think it is the case that we all see the same things, read the same

things, and therefore have the same thoughts. There are still a lot of

people who live outside of the grid, for one, and for another, it is as

easy as ever to place alternate readings on material, as Rimbaud did with

Poe, or Snyder did with his forestry lookout.

 

Best,

 

Harold Rhenisch

rhenisch@web-trek.net

****

 

>Yet this same technology may also hinder the emergence of "genius".

Bukowski was once asked, "Will the future bring more or fewer geniuses?"

Bukowski replied, "Less." Why? Hank answered, "Because of communication.

Everyone is seeing the same things, reading the same things, therefore

having the same thoughts."

 

Makes sense, yes?

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:29:52 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <B089FD74-73B69@207.34.191.131>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

i dont know which novel, but if a great american

novelist is among us, it would have to be pynchon.

but damned if i can decide which novel to select.

 

On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

 

> >I don't believe that the great American novel of

> >the twentieth century has been written yet.

> ***

> Oh-oh.

> 

> Time's running out.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:49:04 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Great Amurican Novelest

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Pynchon would certainly have to be considered a contender for the second

half of the century at least.  I haven't read his new one (anyone out

there have a review), was greatly dissapointed in Vineland--but

Gravity's Rainbow, V, and the Crying of Lot 49 remain.

 

J. Stauffer

James Donahue wrote:

> 

> i dont know which novel, but if a great american

> novelist is among us, it would have to be pynchon.

> but damned if i can decide which novel to select.

> 

 

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:35:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      another from the coffee gallery

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this is sort of a sequel to the "stranger of Strangers" coffee gallery

poem of another saturday night not so long ago.....still quite rough and

needing tailoring.

 

Coffee Gallery

Salina, Kansas

11-08-97

 

Sunshine Lifting the Veils of Darkness

 

Open up them Pearly Gates

for Me

Blue Grass Spiders and Green Garden Snakes

with Leapord Skin crickets' legs trumpet blasting

Louis Armstrong

sliding through my mind

where the soul of man never dies

somewhere near Muses Mill Kentucky

I know now

that the stranger of Strangers is

nobody's fault

        but my own.

 

Standing outside the Vortex opens quickly

        shining pearls and rubies

        in Irish tales of

        blackedout bingo parlour

        birthday parties,

        world series dreams of

        cardboard Gibson guitar

        with John Wayne playing Clint Eastwood

        in The Unforgiven

        the Gang of One

        in a poplar rock quarry garden

        the bright lights of wichita

        grain elevators

        shine in my soul on a Salina sidewalk

 

The Sleepy town awakes in an instant

        The Vortex

                s       l       o       w       i       n       g

        d

        o

        w

        n

                to safety

                displacing fears of my mind spinning out of control

                once again

 

                        Waiting for the Black Veil

 

                                to descend

 

        long and slow over this mysterious evening

 

        wondering

 

        whether a Hopper portrait coffee gallery is

        a figmentary vision or

        a place of Haven granting the spice in life

        where this tired old

                generational warrior

                might safely and contentedly abide.

 

A LIFE

        -- ought to get one I tell myself sometimes laughing at

                the seriousness of it all.

 

Left in my Strangerness for so many centuries

 

        that being alive

        living in the spice of life

 

                real people as companions

                not just crickets

 

Shocks my system like a gusty North Wind across the Kansas plains

Might I survive this night to learn once again -- from square one --

The Dance of Life

        bouncing along to the sound of an Old Mandolin?

 

The Force of the moment sends me outside

        to the air

        letting the wind test me

                -- like a pinch tests a dreamer --

        making certain this ain't just another hallucination

                of life's possibilities

My Mind drifts to Lawrence connecting

                        re-connecting

        with other sparks in the Vortex

 

I become a bird -- pheasant or quail flying on the opening day of

hunting season dodging the pellets as they whisk through the sky

        dodging shots

        just another phase in the life of a Kansas bird

        flying over the Smokey Hill River

        the gunfire brings hints of darkness

        of Black Veils descending

 

Cigarette brings me from primordial bird memories to my human self

lifting the veil again

                here,

                now

        whereever this is

        on Another Saturday night

 

This time a strange companion rather than stranger

with pretty truck stop girl

from all over the West

printed in the mind of a Wichita lineman

bouncing to the strings' alluring sounds

Dancing the dance of Life

        that I've forgotten

        in my stranger life

Watching wonderful people of the south Wind move

I revisit the steps

the treasure map

of happiness

brightly lit

an emerald city

ahead and clearly visible

I'm skipping back to the territory of the Living

Whistling "You Are My Sunshine" to myself

and basking in the warming glow in my Heart.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:38:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

 

In a message dated 97-11-08 16:15:01 EST, you write:

 

<< >If anyone has the full citation for Anstee's book, please post it.  I'd

 >like to order it.  Jeff, do you have it?   >>

 

Sure, I have it....we published it....

Jack Kerouac: The Bootleg Era compiled by Rod Anstee.

Published by Water Row Press. $12.98

PO Box 438 / Sudbury MA 01776

 

We also distribute Montgomery's Fels & Firn books - You can buy them at

Borders.

1. The Kerouac We Knew. $5.95

2. Kerouac at the Wild Boar $16.95

 

Thanks -

Jeffrey

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:40:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

 

In a message dated 97-11-08 18:18:05 EST, you write:

 

<< The last I

 heard his daughter was going to publish a collections of memoirs about

 her father.  Does anyone know if this collections was indeed published? >>

 

Yes, his daughter Laura Petersen did publish a collection of memoirs....

It's out of print but we may have a copy or two here...Coincidentally, the

book was designed by Gary Snyder's sister....

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:30:39 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rastous The Reviewer <rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>

Subject:      Pome II

In-Reply-To:  <34654B94.554D@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Summer night Bay party

 

Watching many tail lamps passing around me

Wind was sharp and cut my skin

Hundreds of moter bikes cluttered with roaring sounds

Chase over the Bay bridge

No fear in their eyes

Screaming voice

Endless summer night

 

Watching city lights in your eyes

It's so beautiful

And i pray......

Please no one take him away from me

Please do not telling me you can die any time

 

You've got me.....you've got me....

 

Our dreams are fireworks

Please do not wake me up and hold my hand

The Bay party's over and all tail lamps are gone

I sit on the CBX400 and watch the Venus with you

 

______________

 

Love,

 

Rastous

 

 

For further examples of my work, check out Liquid Review at:

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm

 

And catch me, Pushkin & Krystalle on Tumultuous in Real Audio:

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm on November 14, 11pm Adelaide

time.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:12:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>

Subject:      On the subject of critics

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The critic in my head

Speaks to me with the voices

of old lovers

Burns black pits of silence

in my soul

 

Seven years of song

Caught in a tight throat

Never spoken

Above a whisper

 

Boxes of my history

Written in verse

Hidden under the bed

 

If I read my story

Will you think me

...a paint-by-numbers Rembrant

...a Kareoke Mozart

...Yeager with a paper plane

 

My spirit would dance with the devil

But it cowers in fear

of the label 'trite'

 

(from the collection Critics and Other Lovers

by Judith Barnett Campbell - copyright 1996

all rights reserved)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:48:02 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: it's all good...

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> Subject:

>         it's all good

>   Date:

>         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:17:26 -0800

>   From:

>         Jerry Mader <jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>

> 

> 

> i will supply you with new adventers,sure you will doubt my competense

> and free spirt but i know.  i see you cry your yearning for more but i

> will comfort you in your time of need. sure i can move to france and

> write a book and make you stand on end for more but am i capable of much

> more. yes my brothers and sisters i am. thsi isn't jerry okay, its his

> son thats using this account, im not using this to get stock quotes or

> info about important info, im using this to trade info, isn't this what

> its all about, sure you can try to braeak me down with your words and

> thoughts but i won't give, you see i'm tired of your conformist views.

> break away from what you know, embark upon something unknown (if u found

> this list then i know you are competent) lets start something here some

> thing brand spanking "NEW"!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

DUDE!!!!!!!!Why don't you just sit back and relax, and quit poking us in

the ribs????

 

What is this ...."you see i'm tired of your conformist views?????"

 

Just how old are you, anyway??? You sound all of 13 going on 12.

 

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 03:38:17 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      sleepless sickness

MIME-Version: 1.0

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slept for a few hours

until

            my body

    awakened     me.

mainly through                         painful pukings

          i reminisce of

   five minute's ago.

                              and so mojo jim

is     on the radio

                 and   i listened      a little while

and heard the  end

                                but really, it was just edited

 

                       so long ago.          acidic brown stains

spilt out                  onto my  toilet.

              the still are sticky          after a late nite

uncleaning   and cleaning      again.

 

and so now    my stomach is

e m p t y

                my mind

      numb,

the radio          off.

11-9-97

3:36am

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 03:22:55 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Anstee's Kerouac biblio at Borders...

In-Reply-To:  <971109004057_-89324236@mrin52.mail.aol.com>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:

 

 In a message dated 97-11-08 18:18:05 EST, you write:

 

> Yes, his daughter Laura Petersen did publish a collection of memoirs....

> It's out of print but we may have a copy or two here...Coincidentally, the

> book was designed by Gary Snyder's sister....

 

His sister Anthea? In _Gary Snyder: Dimensions of a Life_ (ed. Jon Halper)

she is mentioned only a time or two, in connection w/GS's early life.

After that, she is never mentioned again....I've also never seen her

mentioned anywhere else....I've wondered if she somehow dropped out of

GS's life altogether, or just wished to remain private, or what?? What's

the deal here?

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 05:12:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Sorry for the presumptuousness. . .some of them have that Gen-X tone. My

masturbatory flight of fancy is a grandiose structuring of the rise and fall

of mankind with the stroke and sleight of one hand.I guess I'll have to be

careful not to step on the eggshell personalities of our more enlightened

contributors of the Beat-L. I took the "Beat" in a different way I guess

because there is hardly ever any reference to "Beat" Literature. paul...P.S.

, don't wear out your elastic waistbands.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 05:20:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Okay...my "pome"

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I look at the bed

with window flash shuttering

and the yawn of the blankets

beckons me.

 

Oh how I would see

every year the heartaches

Moloch-Moloch

busy at the grocery store

buying my aunt some carrots

 

Rain falls like oil

on my face like

tears from heaven

let it pour all over me

joyful at heaven's rebirth

 

Baby sit, baby shit,

lucky times and the motor engine

turns

to dispel the awkward motion of time

but I see now

how easy it is to come up with this crap.

 

 

 

Take your liberties with this one you humorless Sunday souls! P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 05:44:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the subject of critics

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At 01:12 AM 11/9/97 -0500, you wrote:

>The critic in my head

>Speaks to me with the voices

>of old lovers

>Burns black pits of silence

>in my soul

> 

>Seven years of song

>Caught in a tight throat

>Never spoken

>Above a whisper

> 

>Boxes of my history

>Written in verse

>Hidden under the bed

> 

>If I read my story

>Will you think me

>...a paint-by-numbers Rembrant

>...a Kareoke Mozart

>...Yeager with a paper plane

> 

>My spirit would dance with the devil

>But it cowers in fear

>of the label 'trite'

> 

>(from the collection Critics and Other Lovers

>by Judith Barnett Campbell - copyright 1996

>all rights reserved)

> 

Beautiful....i think I will put on the first of 87 discs of the Complete

Beethoven Edition by Deutsche Gramophone which I recently acquired. Bye to

all my friends! P. of the Kerouac Quarterly.

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:23:14 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Paul's persona Re:

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Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> 

> Sorry for the presumptuousness. . .some of them have that Gen-X tone. My

> masturbatory flight of fancy is a grandiose structuring of the rise and fall

> of mankind with the stroke and sleight of one hand.I guess I'll have to be

> careful not to step on the eggshell personalities of our more enlightened

> contributors of the Beat-L. I took the "Beat" in a different way I guess

> because there is hardly ever any reference to "Beat" Literature. paul...P.S.

> , don't wear out your elastic waistbands.

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

Paul,

 

i spent quite a few efforts examining a poem that would fit within your

genre by Allen Ginsberg (which i imagine you'd feel more than happy to

piss on as well) and you showed NO interest.  Please don't pretend that

you have a personality and it is just somehow offended by the lack of

critical examination of beat literature.  you don't contribute

intelligently to discussion of Beat Literature either.  Not sure why you

take such pleasure in spite but it can make a guy grow weary seeing you

build yourself up by tearing others down.  I really don't understand

your reactions.  I'm not certain what you wish to read about on this

listserv.  Diane had an excellent post that struck straight in the heart

of your conceptions (as i try to comprehend them) of beat literature but

rather than throwing your energy into that thread you decide to attempt

more ridicule.  Jack is right, i believe, in the notions that Diane

quoted concerning writers and various forms.  Joyce would be Joyce even

in the reader's digest.  Paul would be a spiteful juvenile no matter

where or in what form he chose to put his words.

 

The weather has turned frightful in Kansas and your words provide a good

reason to go back to sleep for another week.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:31:03 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: hearing the spoken word

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hi tyson and all people and things beat: ! i just did a reading with

michael in plattsburgh, ny and he is now on the maine coast. michael is an

amazing man with an incredible constitution for being on the road and

being totally THERE when he arrives. i highly recommend any one who  is

putting together readings or workshops (his are wonderful) could do no

better than michael.

 

Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

>      I just had Michael Czarnecki, from the list, over for a reading

> tonight here at the University, and I must say it's moments like these

> that rekindle my faith in the lifeblood of the spoken word.  Michael

> read and we followed with anyone who wanted to read their stuff, I read

> some Kerouac pieces that seemed to go over really well.  there were

> only 6 people there, but it was great just the same.  Curious about

> other's experience as performers, hosts, or audience members at spoken

> word performances.  Four of us had read Kerouac and this event was

> billed as being beat related at all.  Optimistic as far as jack is

> concerned.  It's interesting to witness the difference between the

> large crowd and intimate group... interesting... thanks to Michael for

> carrying the poetic torch, and I highly commend and recommend his work

> as a poet, and as a person with a wonderful sense of the beauriful

> dharma of life.  I'm inspired to hit the road.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:44:09 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Great American Novelist

MIME-version: 1.0

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On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Pynchon would certainly have to be considered a contender for the second

> half of the century at least.  I haven't read his new one (anyone out

> there have a review), was greatly dissapointed in Vineland--but

> Gravity's Rainbow, V, and the Crying of Lot 49 remain.

 

I prefer Cormac McCarthy myself (_All the Pretty Horses_ is far from his

best....try _Blood Meridian_ instead.)

My predictions for next US winner of Nobel prize for Lit: either Pynchon

or McCarthy.....next winner from UK: either Harold Pinter or Tom Stoppard.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:47:18 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Great Amurican Novelest

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To:  <346540C0.4B85@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

i havent yet read vineland or v, but i have read the

crying of lot 49, gravitys rainbow, and im working

through mason and dixon (the new one).  m&d is

certainly brilliantly written and structured, easier

to follow than gr, but not by any means more

simplistic.  i would have to posit this as my vote for

:the great american novel" because of its dealing with

"america" - in its characters (ben franklin is quite

amusing), its discussion of the whole (alledged) "age

of reason," and colonization.  but to name one novel

is to avoid the others, and i think the idea of

ambiguity in 49 is too important in the consideration

of the ambiguous nature of postmodernism, and the

issues of science and self-hood in gr and equally

worth study.  but as far as a review of m&d is

concerned, read it.  if you enjoy pynchons other

works, you will not be disappointed.

james donahue

 

On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Pynchon would certainly have to be considered a contender for the second

> half of the century at least.  I haven't read his new one (anyone out

> there have a review), was greatly dissapointed in Vineland--but

> Gravity's Rainbow, V, and the Crying of Lot 49 remain.

> 

> J. Stauffer

> James Donahue wrote:

> >

> > i dont know which novel, but if a great american

> > novelist is among us, it would have to be pynchon.

> > but damned if i can decide which novel to select.

> >

> 

> > >

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:19:43 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      bone deep curiousity

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

 

--------------282D1B2B61DF

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In the Retreat Diaries

are the lines by william

 

"Telepathy, journeys out of the body--these maifestations , according to

Trunpa, are mere distractions, Exactly. Distraction: fun, like

hang-gliding or surfboarding or skin diving.  So why not have fun? I

sense an underlying dogma here to which I am not williing to submit."

 

when i was asked what i meant by william's obbsession and bone deep

curiousity, that line flashed in my head.  I remember reading that line

and thinking boy right william.  it said a lot about williams approach

to so much of life.  Whe he was told to stay at least three feet from

the snakes that Dean would bring around, william stayed three feet, no

farther, and being slow of foot, I got to watch the kansas rattler try

to make his escape over william's earth shoe. I saw him at a wedding in

the country, (David's and Sues) go over to a wood swing, sit down, and

swing, he fell off, tunmbly rather gracefully. When i first went fishing

with william, we were at the end of paul johnsons dock, showing me the

perfect cast,  William, having a great deal of fun, explaining to me

about imagining the arm following through, when i realized that williams

whole body was following through, i reach out and pulled him back from

falling in, He laughed and said, well maybe not quite that much follow

through , now you try it.

p

 

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CgAoAKAA/9k=

--------------282D1B2B61DF--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:27:44 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Joey Mellott <peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

----------

> From: Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: another Kerouac?

> Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 12:19 PM

> 

> >I don't believe that the great American novel of

> >the twentieth century has been written yet.

> ***

> Oh-oh.

> 

> Time's running out.

 

I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.  While I'm not

stating that it was the best book from the US in the 20th cen, I believe

that Gatsby, before anyone else, could see the direction that America was

going, i.e. materialistic, consumeristic, and cynical, and probably would

not have been surprised that a culture so marginalized from this world view

would spring up and write fantastic, subversive novels.  Kerouac,

Burroughs, and Fitzgerald seem to agree that the American dream has become

a nightmare.

 

Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and jobless loafer

(peyotecoyote@iah.com)

"the socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little

bells (300 of horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."

- Antonin Artaud

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:43:11 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Joey,

 

I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

 

There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Joey Mellott wrote:

 

> 

> I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:03:04 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

 

i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region, class,

race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to

encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

 

much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i fear

the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps, have

a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

 

Joey,

 

I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

 

There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Joey Mellott wrote:

 

> 

> I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:30:00 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: bone deep curiousity

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> In the Retreat Diaries

> are the lines by william

> 

> "Telepathy, journeys out of the body--these maifestations , according to

> Trunpa, are mere distractions, Exactly. Distraction: fun, like

> hang-gliding or surfboarding or skin diving.  So why not have fun? I

> sense an underlying dogma here to which I am not williing to submit."

> 

> when i was asked what i meant by william's obbsession and bone deep

> curiousity, that line flashed in my head.  I remember reading that line

> and thinking boy right william.  it said a lot about williams approach

> to so much of life.  Whe he was told to stay at least three feet from

> the snakes that Dean would bring around, william stayed three feet, no

> farther, and being slow of foot, I got to watch the kansas rattler try

> to make his escape over william's earth shoe. I saw him at a wedding in

> the country, (David's and Sues) go over to a wood swing, sit down, and

> swing, he fell off, tunmbly rather gracefully. When i first went fishing

> with william, we were at the end of paul johnsons dock, showing me the

> perfect cast,  William, having a great deal of fun, explaining to me

> about imagining the arm following through, when i realized that williams

> whole body was following through, i reach out and pulled him back from

> falling in, He laughed and said, well maybe not quite that much follow

> through , now you try it.

> p

> 

 

a domga indeed ... the old curiosity killed the cat notion propogated by

folks who know nothing about cats.

 

it is fun though to get to the point of no distractions with some folks

and then start having lots of fun and they don't know what they're

supposed to do.

 

bone deep curiosity of fun sounds like a good theme for a great american

novel ... a forgotten joy indeed.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

>     ---------------------------------------------------------------

>  [Image]

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:49:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711091805180903@classic.msn.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Why does there have to be ONE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL? I would think that

there would be many such novels, especially, when one takes in

consideration, the number of genres that are out there and, also, how

writing styles of changed in the past one  hundred years. Trying to

choose  THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL from many different genres is like

comparing apples and oranges. Why don't we just sit back and enjoy whats

out there? Not everything has to be a competition.

~Nancy

 

 

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

 

> i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

> actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region, class,

> race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to

> encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

> Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

> 

> much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i fear

> the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps, have

> a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

> 

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

> Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

> 

> Joey,

> 

> I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

> closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

> the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

> 

> There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

> of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

> 

> J. Stauffer

> 

> Joey Mellott wrote:

> 

> >

> > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:58:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: ]

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hey, sorry about wasting bandwidth.   Obviously, I hit reply instead of forward.

  And there you go, James, I help you prove

a point eh?

 

Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> In case you are interested, here is Paul's latest beat literature

> response.

> 

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:02:55 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997110912323331@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Joey Mellott wrote:

 

> ----------

> > From: Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

> > To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> > Subject: Re: another Kerouac?

> > Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 12:19 PM

> >

> > >I don't believe that the great American novel of

> > >the twentieth century has been written yet.

> > ***

> > Oh-oh.

> >

> > Time's running out.

> 

> I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.  While I'm not

> stating that it was the best book from the US in the 20th cen, I believe

> that Gatsby, before anyone else, could see the direction that America was

> going, i.e. materialistic, consumeristic, and cynical, and probably would

> not have been surprised that a culture so marginalized from this world view

> would spring up and write fantastic, subversive novels.  Kerouac,

> Burroughs, and Fitzgerald seem to agree that the American dream has become

> a nightmare.

 

-----no denying that gatsby was A great american

novel, but i think it is lacking in that it only

represents one view of "americana."  certainly, the

materialistc representation of gatsbys world was

superb, but this was where the novel stopped.  it

consciously did not deal with any of the intellectual

developments that were working in america.  and

although it did predict one of the social aspects of

america, "american" is more than a social or cultural

adjective.  but i do not argue that gatsby is  a

beautifully written, brilliant work.  but pynchon - in

my opinion - deals with many facets of americana.

especially mason and dixon.

 

> 

> Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and jobless loafer

> (peyotecoyote@iah.com)

> "the socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little

> bells (300 of horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."

> - Antonin Artaud

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:06:33 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711091805180903@classic.msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

eco is certainly a genius.  i cant think of a more

entertaining writer - name of the rose was genius.

also, his critical work is superb, and his comic

publications are hysterical (and often all too true).

it is a shame that he cannot be considered for the

great american novelist.  but id be willing to grant

him such status if we could put him into the mix.  he

is easily one of the most intelligent men of out time.

james donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

 

> i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

> actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region, class,

> race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to

> encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

> Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

> 

> much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i fear

> the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps, have

> a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

> 

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

> Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

> 

> Joey,

> 

> I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

> closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

> the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

> 

> There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

> of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

> 

> J. Stauffer

> 

> Joey Mellott wrote:

> 

> >

> > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:11:59 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971109134503.8586A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

well, i see your point, but its impossible to escape.

with the publications yearly of "the best american

essays" and "best american poetry," it is inescapable

that one should consider novels.  (anyone know of a

best american short story publication?)  and i dont

know where i st on the issue - i read and teach from

the best american essays, but i refuse to buy the best

american poetry - one issue edited by louise gluck

killed that for me.  but the comparison between works

is inevitable, especially as america no longer has a

core of a dozen or so writers that are generally

reverred as "great" (here i am thinking of fitzgerald,

faulkner, et al.)

also, one must consider teaching issues.  it would be

easier to devise syllabi is such a notion were -

decided but i dont know what i would do with that.

but thank you for that point.  we deserved it (but i

wont stop considering it, at leats not for now).

jim donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

 

> Why does there have to be ONE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL? I would think that

> there would be many such novels, especially, when one takes in

> consideration, the number of genres that are out there and, also, how

> writing styles of changed in the past one  hundred years. Trying to

> choose  THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL from many different genres is like

> comparing apples and oranges. Why don't we just sit back and enjoy whats

> out there? Not everything has to be a competition.

> ~Nancy

> 

> 

> 

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

> 

> > i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

> > actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region, class,

> > race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to

> > encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

> > Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

> >

> > much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i

 fear

> > the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps,

 have

> > a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

> >

> > ciao,

> > sherri

> >

> > ----------

> > From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

> > Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

> > To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> > Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

> >

> > Joey,

> >

> > I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

> > closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

> > the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

> >

> > There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

> > of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

> >

> > J. Stauffer

> >

> > Joey Mellott wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> > > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

> >

> 

> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> Sure-JK

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:24:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: it's all good...

Comments: To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>

In-Reply-To:  <34655CA2.5E8D@comic.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:

 

> > Subject:

> >         it's all good

> >   Date:

> >         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:17:26 -0800

> >   From:

> >         Jerry Mader <jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>

> >

> >

> > i will supply you with new adventers,sure you will doubt my competense

> > and free spirt but i know.  i see you cry your yearning for more but i

> > will comfort you in your time of need. sure i can move to france and

> > write a book and make you stand on end for more but am i capable of much

> > more. yes my brothers and sisters i am. thsi isn't jerry okay, its his

> > son thats using this account, im not using this to get stock quotes or

> > info about important info, im using this to trade info, isn't this what

> > its all about, sure you can try to braeak me down with your words and

> > thoughts but i won't give, you see i'm tired of your conformist views.

> > break away from what you know, embark upon something unknown (if u found

> > this list then i know you are competent) lets start something here some

> > thing brand spanking "NEW"!!!!!!!

> 

> DUDE!!!!!!!!Why don't you just sit back and relax, and quit poking us in

> the ribs????

> 

> What is this ...."you see i'm tired of your conformist views?????"

> 

> Just how old are you, anyway??? You sound all of 13 going on 12.

> 

> 

> cathy

> 

I'm on this guy's side.  Who in the world doesn't occasionally need a

wake-up call?  If it's *not* true, why get defensive about it?

 

Peace

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:41:53 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

 

yes, he is.  his book "Foucault's Pendulum" dances circles around the "Name of

the Rose".  ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Donahue

Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 5:06 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

 

eco is certainly a genius.  i cant think of a more

entertaining writer - name of the rose was genius.

also, his critical work is superb, and his comic

publications are hysterical (and often all too true).

it is a shame that he cannot be considered for the

great american novelist.  but id be willing to grant

him such status if we could put him into the mix.  he

is easily one of the most intelligent men of out time.

james donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

 

> i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

> actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region, class,

> race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to

> encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

> Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

> 

> much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i

fear

> the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps,

have

> a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

> 

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

> Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

> 

> Joey,

> 

> I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

> closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

> the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

> 

> There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

> of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

> 

> J. Stauffer

> 

> Joey Mellott wrote:

> 

> >

> > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:10:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's persona Re:

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:23 AM 11/9/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>> 

>> Sorry for the presumptuousness. . .some of them have that Gen-X tone. My

>> masturbatory flight of fancy is a grandiose structuring of the rise and fall

>> of mankind with the stroke and sleight of one hand.I guess I'll have to be

>> careful not to step on the eggshell personalities of our more enlightened

>> contributors of the Beat-L. I took the "Beat" in a different way I guess

>> because there is hardly ever any reference to "Beat" Literature. paul...P.S.

>> , don't wear out your elastic waistbands.

>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                            Henry David Thoreau

> 

>Paul,

> 

>i spent quite a few efforts examining a poem that would fit within your

>genre by Allen Ginsberg (which i imagine you'd feel more than happy to

>piss on as well) and you showed NO interest.  Please don't pretend that

>you have a personality and it is just somehow offended by the lack of

>critical examination of beat literature.  you don't contribute

>intelligently to discussion of Beat Literature either.  Not sure why you

>take such pleasure in spite but it can make a guy grow weary seeing you

>build yourself up by tearing others down.  I really don't understand

>your reactions.  I'm not certain what you wish to read about on this

>listserv.  Diane had an excellent post that struck straight in the heart

>of your conceptions (as i try to comprehend them) of beat literature but

>rather than throwing your energy into that thread you decide to attempt

>more ridicule.  Jack is right, i believe, in the notions that Diane

>quoted concerning writers and various forms.  Joyce would be Joyce even

>in the reader's digest.  Paul would be a spiteful juvenile no matter

>where or in what form he chose to put his words.

> 

>The weather has turned frightful in Kansas and your words provide a good

>reason to go back to sleep for another week.

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

 

 

>Thank-you drive thru....P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:48:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: hearing the spoken word

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>hi tyson and all people and things beat: ! i just did a reading with

>michael in plattsburgh, ny and he is now on the maine coast. michael is

>an

>amazing man with an incredible constitution for being on the road and

>being totally THERE when he arrives. i highly recommend any one who  is

>putting together readings or workshops (his are wonderful) could do no

>better than michael.

 

     yeah, he came here straight from NY, quite a drive.  yes, he was

completely there, it's refreshing.  i highly recommend his Elegy for

the Road - Kerouac's Ghost.. was one of my favorites.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:14:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: ]

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:58 PM 11/9/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Hey, sorry about wasting bandwidth.   Obviously, I hit reply instead of

forward.

>  And there you go, James, I help you prove

>a point eh?

> 

>Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

>> In case you are interested, here is Paul's latest beat literature

>> response.

>> 

which is?

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:16:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's persona Re:

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:23 AM 11/9/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>> 

>> Sorry for the presumptuousness. . .some of them have that Gen-X tone. My

>> masturbatory flight of fancy is a grandiose structuring of the rise and fall

>> of mankind with the stroke and sleight of one hand.I guess I'll have to be

>> careful not to step on the eggshell personalities of our more enlightened

>> contributors of the Beat-L. I took the "Beat" in a different way I guess

>> because there is hardly ever any reference to "Beat" Literature. paul...P.S.

>> , don't wear out your elastic waistbands.

>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                            Henry David Thoreau

> 

>Paul,

> 

>i spent quite a few efforts examining a poem that would fit within your

>genre by Allen Ginsberg (which i imagine you'd feel more than happy to

>piss on as well) and you showed NO interest.  Please don't pretend that

>you have a personality and it is just somehow offended by the lack of

>critical examination of beat literature.  you don't contribute

>intelligently to discussion of Beat Literature either.  Not sure why you

>take such pleasure in spite but it can make a guy grow weary seeing you

>build yourself up by tearing others down.  I really don't understand

>your reactions.  I'm not certain what you wish to read about on this

>listserv.  Diane had an excellent post that struck straight in the heart

>of your conceptions (as i try to comprehend them) of beat literature but

>rather than throwing your energy into that thread you decide to attempt

>more ridicule.  Jack is right, i believe, in the notions that Diane

>quoted concerning writers and various forms.  Joyce would be Joyce even

>in the reader's digest.  Paul would be a spiteful juvenile no matter

>where or in what form he chose to put his words.

> 

>The weather has turned frightful in Kansas and your words provide a good

>reason to go back to sleep for another week.

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

>Sleep on my friend...you'll be right at home with the rest of them...P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

 

what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

Novel"?

 

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

 

What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

 

I figure that will be worth a try.

 

Best,

 

Harold Rhenisch

rhenisch@web-trek.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:36:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's persona Re:

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:23 AM 11/9/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>> 

>> Sorry for the presumptuousness. . .some of them have that Gen-X tone. My

>> masturbatory flight of fancy is a grandiose structuring of the rise and fall

>> of mankind with the stroke and sleight of one hand.I guess I'll have to be

>> careful not to step on the eggshell personalities of our more enlightened

>> contributors of the Beat-L. I took the "Beat" in a different way I guess

>> because there is hardly ever any reference to "Beat" Literature. paul...P.S.

>> , don't wear out your elastic waistbands.

>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                            Henry David Thoreau

> 

>Paul,

> 

>i spent quite a few efforts examining a poem that would fit within your

>genre by Allen Ginsberg (which i imagine you'd feel more than happy to

>piss on as well) and you showed NO interest.  Please don't pretend that

>you have a personality and it is just somehow offended by the lack of

>critical examination of beat literature.  you don't contribute

>intelligently to discussion of Beat Literature either.  Not sure why you

>take such pleasure in spite but it can make a guy grow weary seeing you

>build yourself up by tearing others down.  I really don't understand

>your reactions.  I'm not certain what you wish to read about on this

>listserv.  Diane had an excellent post that struck straight in the heart

>of your conceptions (as i try to comprehend them) of beat literature but

>rather than throwing your energy into that thread you decide to attempt

>more ridicule.  Jack is right, i believe, in the notions that Diane

>quoted concerning writers and various forms.  Joyce would be Joyce even

>in the reader's digest.  Paul would be a spiteful juvenile no matter

>where or in what form he chose to put his words.

> 

>The weather has turned frightful in Kansas and your words provide a good

>reason to go back to sleep for another week.

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

> 

 

I have no "genre." What I do have is an impulsive delight in playing with

words, any words, that lay before me in a most horrible turgid manner. They,

the very instruments of my fancy abused to the point of recklessness. They

pitted into cliches and sucked out left bloodless and void of insight and

meaning. I seize these words and turn them on their backs with their legs

grasping at thin air like turtles upended by a cruel child, and I watch them

struggle feebly, disabled momentarily. I assume the chance to solicit the

very response I take the time to engender.

   Alas, the universe is a whole. How can that be denied? Just as man

breathes eighteen times a minute, or 25,920 times a day, the equinoctial

point of the sun runs through the zodiac once in every 25,920 years. Our

hearts beat only one-fourth as fast as our lungs breathe, just as the speed

of the propagation of air is four times greater than a film that records the

variety of the phenomena of the universe. I am convinced that I am of this

world itself, that I embody the living nucleus of the landscape. My

existential obsession is constantly to mimetize myslef. Like it, I am a

cathedral of strength with a nimbus of dreamlike delirium. My granite

structure is equipped with ductilities, haze, glint, quicksands, that hide

its needles, its craters, its promontories, the better to let me keep my

secrets.  P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:58:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

>Novel"?

>What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

>something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

 

     that all depends on what we understand novel to mean, the new

american novel will not be linear, in fact, will not even have plot in

the traditional sense.  the new american novel will have to take on the

air of what we see in independent movies, a renewed devotoin to the

adage that it's not what you write but how you write it.  it'll be like

dreaming...  basically, the new american novel is Naked Lunch, it's

mind-blowing how much before its time it was.  I'd venture to say that

maybe Naked Lunch is the great amer. novel of the 20th century that has

already been written.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:08:12 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject:      Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Leon, I feel you do this when you write about Neal.

 

Duncan

 

At 12:10 PM 10/11/97 +1000, you wrote:

>Date:    Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:02:57 PST

>From:    Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

>Subject: Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

> 

>Patricia

> 

>You are such a gem. I am not speaking of your poetry right now. I am

>speaking of how you give definition to the word true friend. A true

>friend is not one who would overlook and color in things to make the

>friend look "better". A true friend loves their friend enough to know

>them as much as only a true friend can, and accepts them for what they

>are. A true friend can explain a person better than any objectified

>scholarship tries to do. A true friend wants to explain their friends to

>others who would like to know more about them in a way that they come

>out of the shadows of various possibilities. So many of the questions

>that seem to linger after explanations by remote scholarly

>interpretations are finally fully answered by the integrity and true

>friendship that you share with us.

>Your true friendship enlightens us about the wonderful human being

>William S. Burroughs was and the mistakes that he made in living his

>very human life. With your help I know him better too.

> 

>leon

>------------------------------------------------------------------.o0

>Duncan Gray

>Stored Grain Research Laboratory

>CSIRO Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

>Ph. (06) 246 4178  Fax (06) 246 4202

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

> 

> 

> 

------------------------------------------------------------------.o0

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178  Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:29:06 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711092244180160@classic.msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

the more i read, the more i need to read...another

book to put on my list.

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

 

> yes, he is.  his book "Foucault's Pendulum" dances circles around the "Name of

> the Rose".  ciao, sherri

> 

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Donahue

> Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 5:06 PM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

> 

> eco is certainly a genius.  i cant think of a more

> entertaining writer - name of the rose was genius.

> also, his critical work is superb, and his comic

> publications are hysterical (and often all too true).

> it is a shame that he cannot be considered for the

> great american novelist.  but id be willing to grant

> him such status if we could put him into the mix.  he

> is easily one of the most intelligent men of out time.

> james donahue

> 

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

> 

> > i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

> > actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region, class,

> > race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to

> > encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

> > Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

> >

> > much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i

> fear

> > the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps,

> have

> > a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

> >

> > ciao,

> > sherri

> >

> > ----------

> > From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

> > Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

> > To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> > Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

> >

> > Joey,

> >

> > I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

> > closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

> > the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

> >

> > There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

> > of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

> >

> > J. Stauffer

> >

> > Joey Mellott wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> > > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

> >

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:34:01 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <B08B94F9-D9487@204.244.157.69>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

in this question, are you asking which novel is the

great american novel, or are you asking about the

"genre" of great american novel?  the first question

has been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and

fitzgerald being specifically named in the

discussion).  as to the other choice, i dont know what

you mean.  but i believe that we have decided on this

questions undecidability.  but id love to discuss

alternatives to the genre "novel".  but wont this

bring us back to the poetry/prose disctinction?  and

what do we do about that?

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

 

> The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> 

> what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> Novel"?

> 

> I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> 

> What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> 

> I figure that will be worth a try.

> 

> Best,

> 

> Harold Rhenisch

> rhenisch@web-trek.net

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:38:45 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Gary Snyder

In-Reply-To:  <9711100209.AA09981@spider.ento.csiro.au>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I just returned from a weekend trip four hours south to Hot Springs, where

Gary Snyder did a workshop/reading Saturday.  What an amazing experience.

I have paid less attention to him perhaps than any of the major Beats.  A

terrific guy, wonderful reader, beautiful poet.  I am out of superlatives.

Can anyone recommend anything to me besides, TURTLE ISLAND, which he just

signed and I began reading tonight?  (I took my copy of DHARMA BUMS,

though uncertain how he'd feel about signing someone else's

book--nonetheless, it being my first exposure to him at age 15, I

presented it. He said, "I always sign this one like so," and signed the

title page JAPHY RYDER.  Wow.)

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

 

"I make art about the misunderstandings that take place at the

border zone, but for me, the border is no longer at any fixed

geopolitical site. I carry the border with me, and I find new

borders, wherever I go."

                               --Guillermo Gomez-Pena

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:39:55 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <msg1195570.thr-cbdd020b.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

i knew it was only a matter of time before a beat was

brought into this mix (given the company we keep...).

but i dont think that the answer is wrong.  once

again, im forced to rethink my conception of what a

good novel is constructed by (or itself constructs).

but even if i dont fully agree with your choice, i do

agree with your argument - the great american novel,

if it does or ever will exist - will not be

traditional, and i daresay it will not be popular, but

it will be ahead of its time.

  james donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> >Novel"?

> >What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> >something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> 

>      that all depends on what we understand novel to mean, the new

> american novel will not be linear, in fact, will not even have plot in

> the traditional sense.  the new american novel will have to take on the

> air of what we see in independent movies, a renewed devotoin to the

> adage that it's not what you write but how you write it.  it'll be like

> dreaming...  basically, the new american novel is Naked Lunch, it's

> mind-blowing how much before its time it was.  I'd venture to say that

> maybe Naked Lunch is the great amer. novel of the 20th century that has

> already been written.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:47:34 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Donahue wrote:

> 

> in this question, are you asking which novel is the

> great american novel, or are you asking about the

> "genre" of great american novel?  the first question

> has been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and

> fitzgerald being specifically named in the

> discussion).  as to the other choice, i dont know what

> you mean.  but i believe that we have decided on this

> questions undecidability.  but id love to discuss

> alternatives to the genre "novel".  but wont this

> bring us back to the poetry/prose disctinction?  and

> what do we do about that?

 

i've been following this thread with my usual recognition of how very

little i know and understand about all these ideas.  I've consistently

said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

something less or more than a novel?  I honestly have no background or

idea.  And what does Beat Generation literature do in altering the

conceptions of the novel?  What does the Beat Generation literature do

to determine what constitutes the great American novel -- with the

notions of quality in connection with the novel itself?  Some have

mentioned linearity and non-linearity -- what about the 20th Century

suggests the need for redefinition towards the exploding (or imploding)

of linearity?  Naked Lunch is suggested as an exemplar of 20th Century

non-linearity but what motive pushes us towards non-linearity as a model

of quality, and if non-linearity is a pre-requisite of quality i wonder

about the notion of models and exemplars and if they may withstand the

same motivations that push against linearity.  What is the difference

between history and novel?  Between poetry and novel?  Between

philosophy or social theory and novel?

 

As you can see I have questions oh so many questions but very little

background or understanding of the matter.  It seems partly a question

of form, perhaps partly a question of substance.  I honestly haven't

been able to tell so far from the discussion anything close to what the

parameters of what is accepted as a novel might be.

 

Clueless in Kansas,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

> 

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

> 

> > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> >

> > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> > Novel"?

> >

> > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> >

> > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> >

> > I figure that will be worth a try.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > Harold Rhenisch

> > rhenisch@web-trek.net

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:12:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

 

perhaps a great american novel need not exist.

perhaps a great american novel would not be agreed upon by everybody, and

even should a majority hit upon a particular book, does this mean they are

qualified?

should a great american novel for the 20th century ever be written, perhaps

it would be more the wise to wait until the 20th century in itself be

accurately acessed to see what would fit the qualifications.

 

perhaps the great american novel should not exist

 

"the withheld work of art is of the only eloquence left"

 

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:29:59 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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I was asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel". It

strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a

reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the

favourite.

 

Best,

 

 

Harold Rhenisch

rhenisch@web-trek.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:35:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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Hi again,

 

re:

 

>that all depends on what we understand novel to mean, the new

>american novel will not be linear, in fact, will not even have plot in

>the traditional sense.

 

Thanks for the reply. A good start, but what do we understand 'novel' to

mean? Why will it not be linear? Why will it not even have plot in the

traditional sense? This all must have something to do with what makes it

great and american, right?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Best,

 

Harold Rhenisch

rhenisch@web-trek.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:37:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Marlene's and sherri's poems

 

hello all,

 

well i'm back from my weekend trip and i was delighted and suprised to find

all these comments about my poem. Thank you for the praise. It makes feel all

warm inside when people like marie and sherri and david give me a compliment.

as for the "pome" paul wrote, should i be offended? the subject matter

doesn't shock me, but i hope it wasn't a personal attack. i write, i post,

you do what you wish with it. thanks folks. take care.

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:06:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Untitled Nightthoughts

 

untitled

 

        i

in the sludge waste back bathroom of the golden arches

such is thus i find myself

        (begrudgingly)

 

let us cut to the middle;

                                                .right the than important more no is left the

after fulfilling my(-oh-my) obligatory daily rhythms

 and backing out, startled, from the stall, backwards, appalled

  about automatic motion-sensory flush mechanisms

        i lurch for the sink.

(motion sensored as well)

        to moisten the pores of my face.

 

and upon doing so:

 

                ii

the sickly lightbulbs flickered

three   in   sight   -   one by row , three   by   column

        the skythe      bloodthe        wedding virgin

  in lieu of a reflecting myself

                (since by now i am a gazing mute)

there is only a me - inherently dependent

      upon the siamesetriptych

 

my pale skin between self       u n r a v e l s reflection

fusingwiththe

        d

          y

            i

              n

                g lights l o o s e l y suspended before the mirrorrorrim

at this other i am many shades

   ove  separate   rla  distinct           pp   but    ing

 

                        iii

in the space between

the land of the prideful uroboros

is red

plasma-red with a penchant for

repetition reppitetion rhepuhtishun

 

   in the soul of the serpent between -

   gluttony mistaken for passion

   and in befuddled innocence - absent contrition

 

in the space between

the sky is an obtrusive blue

forgetful of the notion of just, just being

and the larger airplanes dominate

while the smaller wrestle beneath the shadow

 

   in the body of the serpent

   my fathers lack the foresight required to slither

   so, in shame(noshame) effect,

   construct feet, arms and comfortable penny loafers

 

in the keystone of the acid lightbath -

dishwater blinding bright

rests the virgin's thighs from whence

conceptualizing and awareness bounce forth

unable to bungee back

 

   the palette of the serpent

   composed of congruent colors by nature

   though, when conjoined by imperfect joints

   - ugly mixture imported meanings indiscriminate fate -

 

                                iv

i, in opposition to partake of this dying color scheme,

                                        backwards take a step with kouros symmetry

        and retrieve my slingshot

   a series of

pppppprrrrrroooooooojjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeccccccctttttttttiiiiiiiiiillllllllllleeee

eeessssssssss

and howls rage forth

   purging the essence of mars

   cleansing the sky of its self-appointed interpreters

   shattering the great white mist permeating the facade of grandeur

 

                                        v

in the dark i can see nothing

there is fear; i falter in my confidence

all i have given myself is

 

autonomous

 

life - a concept i wasn't willing for yet -

 

the reflection is gone

the lightbulbs are gone, but the darkness

-their reflections pure and true- remain

 

i do not move.

i inhale the principles of this uncharted terrain.

this glee-wary uncertainty .

 

11-09-97

bhr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:07:13 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      'great american novel'

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

  Studying writing right now in college, I've heard the term "Great

American Novel" used and misused so many times. How can we possibly

take 100 years of joy, laughter, sorrow, and discovery and cram it

into only a several hundred pages?

  There hasn't been only one book to accomplish this, nor one writer.

While Ginsberg lived and wrote about what many Americans stood for (or

would have stood for, if they had put aside their fears of what others

would think), we cannot call him the Great American Poet. While

Hemingway may have epitomized the Lost Generation in "The Sun Also

Rises," he could not be the Great American Novelist. While Kerouac

mastered the art of spontaneous prose, he could never be called the

Great American Writer.

  Why must we narrow it down to one Great American Novel? In this

century, we've been lucky enough to have encountered the works of many

incredible writers-- Ginsberg, Kerouac, Ferlinghetti, Vonnegut, and

others-- so why not embrace them all?

  Personally, I'm overjoyed that we've had so many great writers to

learn from in the 20th Century, so many great minds who have

influenced the way I write and think.

  God bless America, and God bless all of our Great American Writers.

         Maggie G.

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:38:28 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: it's all good...

Comments: To: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@comp.uark.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:

> 

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> 

> > > Subject:

> > >         it's all good

> > >   Date:

> > >         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:17:26 -0800

> > >   From:

> > >         Jerry Mader <jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>

> > >

> > >

> > > i will supply you with new adventers,sure you will doubt my competense

> > > and free spirt but i know.  i see you cry your yearning for more but i

> > > will comfort you in your time of need. sure i can move to france and

> > > write a book and make you stand on end for more but am i capable of much

> > > more. yes my brothers and sisters i am. thsi isn't jerry okay, its his

> > > son thats using this account, im not using this to get stock quotes or

> > > info about important info, im using this to trade info, isn't this what

> > > its all about, sure you can try to braeak me down with your words and

> > > thoughts but i won't give, you see i'm tired of your conformist views.

> > > break away from what you know, embark upon something unknown (if u found

> > > this list then i know you are competent) lets start something here some

> > > thing brand spanking "NEW"!!!!!!!

> >

> > DUDE!!!!!!!!Why don't you just sit back and relax, and quit poking us in

> > the ribs????

> >

> > What is this ...."you see i'm tired of your conformist views?????"

> >

> > Just how old are you, anyway??? You sound all of 13 going on 12.

> >

> >

> > cathy

> >

> I'm on this guy's side.  Who in the world doesn't occasionally need a

> wake-up call?  If it's *not* true, why get defensive about it?

> 

> Peace

> 

> Don Lee

> Fayetteville, Ark.

 

 

 

 

Here's why I sound defensive:  I remember being 12 ,13,14 years old and

spouting off this sort of thing, almost his exact words-without really

believing it.  I firmly believe that it took me until well into my

twenties to find my own voice, to really believe that what i have to say

does make a difference.

So this kid can spout of his statements as he did above, but what he

really needs to do is to find his own way, his own voice.  Then he can

raise his voice 'right along' with ours, and 'something new' will have

already begun.

 

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:09:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Untitled Nightthoughts

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

impressive journey --

i especially liked the image of being appalled at the automatic flushing

device, the horror of the realization of absurd world. the

ending stansa is great.

 

from,

Eric

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:06:00 -0500 First_Name Last_Name

<Kindlesan@AOL.COM> wrote:

 

> untitled

> 

>         i

> in the sludge waste back bathroom of the golden arches

> such is thus i find myself

>         (begrudgingly)

> 

> let us cut to the middle;

>                                                 .right the than important more

 no is left the

> after fulfilling my(-oh-my) obligatory daily rhythms

>  and backing out, startled, from the stall, backwards, appalled

>   about automatic motion-sensory flush mechanisms

>         i lurch for the sink.

> (motion sensored as well)

>         to moisten the pores of my face.

> 

> and upon doing so:

> 

>                 ii

> the sickly lightbulbs flickered

> three   in   sight   -   one by row , three   by   column

>         the skythe      bloodthe        wedding virgin

>   in lieu of a reflecting myself

>                 (since by now i am a gazing mute)

> there is only a me - inherently dependent

>       upon the siamesetriptych

> 

> my pale skin between self       u n r a v e l s reflection

> fusingwiththe

>         d

>           y

>             i

>               n

>                 g lights l o o s e l y suspended before the mirrorrorrim

> at this other i am many shades

>    ove  separate   rla  distinct           pp   but    ing

> 

>                         iii

> in the space between

> the land of the prideful uroboros

> is red

> plasma-red with a penchant for

> repetition reppitetion rhepuhtishun

> 

>    in the soul of the serpent between -

>    gluttony mistaken for passion

>    and in befuddled innocence - absent contrition

> 

> in the space between

> the sky is an obtrusive blue

> forgetful of the notion of just, just being

> and the larger airplanes dominate

> while the smaller wrestle beneath the shadow

> 

>    in the body of the serpent

>    my fathers lack the foresight required to slither

>    so, in shame(noshame) effect,

>    construct feet, arms and comfortable penny loafers

> 

> in the keystone of the acid lightbath -

> dishwater blinding bright

> rests the virgin's thighs from whence

> conceptualizing and awareness bounce forth

> unable to bungee back

> 

>    the palette of the serpent

>    composed of congruent colors by nature

>    though, when conjoined by imperfect joints

>    - ugly mixture imported meanings indiscriminate fate -

> 

>                                 iv

> i, in opposition to partake of this dying color scheme,

>                                         backwards take a step with kouros

 symmetry

>         and retrieve my slingshot

>    a series of

> pppppprrrrrroooooooojjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeccccccctttttttttiiiiiiiiiillllllllllleeee

> eeessssssssss

> and howls rage forth

>    purging the essence of mars

>    cleansing the sky of its self-appointed interpreters

>    shattering the great white mist permeating the facade of grandeur

> 

>                                         v

> in the dark i can see nothing

> there is fear; i falter in my confidence

> all i have given myself is

> 

> autonomous

> 

> life - a concept i wasn't willing for yet -

> 

> the reflection is gone

> the lightbulbs are gone, but the darkness

> -their reflections pure and true- remain

> 

> i do not move.

> i inhale the principles of this uncharted terrain.

> this glee-wary uncertainty .

> 

> 11-09-97

> bhr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:02:26 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Untitled Nightthoughts

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

very nice stuff. glad i found this as soon as i did during the hoursr

of shadow.

goodnite all.

randall

 

> untitled

> 

>         i

> in the sludge waste back bathroom of the golden arches

> such is thus i find myself

>         (begrudgingly)

> 

> let us cut to the middle;

>                                                 .right the than important more

 no is left the

> after fulfilling my(-oh-my) obligatory daily rhythms

>  and backing out, startled, from the stall, backwards, appalled

>   about automatic motion-sensory flush mechanisms

>         i lurch for the sink.

> (motion sensored as well)

>         to moisten the pores of my face.

> 

> and upon doing so:

> 

>                 ii

> the sickly lightbulbs flickered

> three   in   sight   -   one by row , three   by   column

>         the skythe      bloodthe        wedding virgin

>   in lieu of a reflecting myself

>                 (since by now i am a gazing mute)

> there is only a me - inherently dependent

>       upon the siamesetriptych

> 

> my pale skin between self       u n r a v e l s reflection

> fusingwiththe

>         d

>           y

>             i

>               n

>                 g lights l o o s e l y suspended before the mirrorrorrim

> at this other i am many shades

>    ove  separate   rla  distinct           pp   but    ing

> 

>                         iii

> in the space between

> the land of the prideful uroboros

> is red

> plasma-red with a penchant for

> repetition reppitetion rhepuhtishun

> 

>    in the soul of the serpent between -

>    gluttony mistaken for passion

>    and in befuddled innocence - absent contrition

> 

> in the space between

> the sky is an obtrusive blue

> forgetful of the notion of just, just being

> and the larger airplanes dominate

> while the smaller wrestle beneath the shadow

> 

>    in the body of the serpent

>    my fathers lack the foresight required to slither

>    so, in shame(noshame) effect,

>    construct feet, arms and comfortable penny loafers

> 

> in the keystone of the acid lightbath -

> dishwater blinding bright

> rests the virgin's thighs from whence

> conceptualizing and awareness bounce forth

> unable to bungee back

> 

>    the palette of the serpent

>    composed of congruent colors by nature

>    though, when conjoined by imperfect joints

>    - ugly mixture imported meanings indiscriminate fate -

> 

>                                 iv

> i, in opposition to partake of this dying color scheme,

>                                         backwards take a step with kouros

 symmetry

>         and retrieve my slingshot

>    a series of

> pppppprrrrrroooooooojjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeccccccctttttttttiiiiiiiiiillllllllllleeee

> eeessssssssss

> and howls rage forth

>    purging the essence of mars

>    cleansing the sky of its self-appointed interpreters

>    shattering the great white mist permeating the facade of grandeur

> 

>                                         v

> in the dark i can see nothing

> there is fear; i falter in my confidence

> all i have given myself is

> 

> autonomous

> 

> life - a concept i wasn't willing for yet -

> 

> the reflection is gone

> the lightbulbs are gone, but the darkness

> -their reflections pure and true- remain

> 

> i do not move.

> i inhale the principles of this uncharted terrain.

> this glee-wary uncertainty .

> 

> 11-09-97

> bhr

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:22:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

greetings Beat-l people,

 

i recently came across a tape of Gary Snyder reciting

pomes with the music accompaniment of the Paul Winter

consort. called Turtle Island as many of the pieces

are from that book. the performance ca. 1979. has

anyone listened to it? he has a calm reading style, at

times quite animated.

 

what about other recordings?

 

 

 

Eric

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:17:12 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      the great novel debate

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Subject:

>         The Great American Novel

>   Date:

>         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700

>   From:

>         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

> 

> 

> The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> 

> what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> Novel"?

> 

> I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> 

> What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> 

> I figure that will be worth a try.

> 

> Best,

> 

> Harold Rhenisch

> rhenisch@web-trek.net

 

 

 

 

 

WHY HAS NO ONE MENTIONED 'ON THE ROAD' TO BE THE BEST NOVEL OF THE 20TH

CENTURY?????????  If you want americana, it's got it, front to back, all

facets of america is shown....

 

that would be my vote.

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:34:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

why the "Great American Novel" in the first place? in the vernacular its

usually referenced as a joke.

 

is there any single Great French novel? or European NOvel? or ... the

great New York novel? what about the Great Novel of the 19th Century

Written in Arkansas. is the writernessship of Americans actually

distinctly classifiable? the question of course is basically no more

than this if your taking the role of admiring reader, fan: what is your

favorite novel; if your trying to analyze literary history: what had the

most impact; or what novel attains some high conceptualization of ART,

anyhow there aint never gonna be no concensus.

 

adios,

Eric

 

ecs4m@virginia.edu

 

"reason is such a trickster"  -- Sextus Empiricus

 

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700 Harold Rhenisch

<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET> wrote:

 

> The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> 

> what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> Novel"?

> 

> I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> 

> What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> 

> I figure that will be worth a try.

> 

> Best,

> 

> Harold Rhenisch

> rhenisch@web-trek.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:45:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      super novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

somebody enthuiastically introduced "On the Road" as a

suitable candidate for the Great American Novel, and i was

too wondering why nobody previously had. while i can

certainly agree that it is one of the greatest novels of

all time, a broad class, i am not sure if it is even the

best Kerouac novel. in fact i think Desolation Angels is

better, of course VOC is up there, etc. if influence is a

reuirement maybe On the Road has an edge among the Kerouac

books.

 

in a sense, Kerouac was consciously trying to formulate a

Great Stack of American Novels, the Legend.

 

 

 

 

Eric

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:51:08 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>should a great american novel for the 20th century ever be written,

perhaps

>it would be more the wise to wait until the 20th century in itself be

>accurately acessed to see what would fit the qualifications.

 

Perhaps the great american novel for the 20th century would do that

assessment?

 

Harold

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:43:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sad Enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: super novel

 

i like  the catcher in the rye.  i think it influenced alot of people and

expressed a universal feeling of unhappiness and  i guess i sorta though of

holden as like my friend after i read it.  i just really liked that book.  i

know i'm not the judge of the great american novel but for my favorite novel

that would win.

 

 

   chad

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:00:41 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.95.971109203545.5225B-100000@comp>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

try "the back country" which i feel is his best work.

also, "no nature" was released not long ago, which is

new and selected works.  a must read.

sorry i couldnt attend the reading.

too bad you havent paid him much attention - i hope

you will change that.

j donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:

 

> I just returned from a weekend trip four hours south to Hot Springs, where

> Gary Snyder did a workshop/reading Saturday.  What an amazing experience.

> I have paid less attention to him perhaps than any of the major Beats.  A

> terrific guy, wonderful reader, beautiful poet.  I am out of superlatives.

> Can anyone recommend anything to me besides, TURTLE ISLAND, which he just

> signed and I began reading tonight?  (I took my copy of DHARMA BUMS,

> though uncertain how he'd feel about signing someone else's

> book--nonetheless, it being my first exposure to him at age 15, I

> presented it. He said, "I always sign this one like so," and signed the

> title page JAPHY RYDER.  Wow.)

> 

> Don Lee

> Fayetteville, Ark.

> 

> "I make art about the misunderstandings that take place at the

> border zone, but for me, the border is no longer at any fixed

> geopolitical site. I carry the border with me, and I find new

> borders, wherever I go."

>                                --Guillermo Gomez-Pena

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:04:45 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <346675C6.463B@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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your questios are well put, and will certainly give me

much to think about.  and im afraid i cant say that,

at this point, they can be anything more than

rhetorical - i dont believe there are any short

answers, so i wont even try.  but im glad you asked

them, because i believe i jumped into this discussion

with first defining my parameters...and that was

dangerous.  and although i dont think i can help bring

anything to these questions right now, i can say that

i will give them some serious thought.  and maybe ican

return to them after that.  thank you.

j donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> James Donahue wrote:

> >

> > in this question, are you asking which novel is the

> > great american novel, or are you asking about the

> > "genre" of great american novel?  the first question

> > has been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and

> > fitzgerald being specifically named in the

> > discussion).  as to the other choice, i dont know what

> > you mean.  but i believe that we have decided on this

> > questions undecidability.  but id love to discuss

> > alternatives to the genre "novel".  but wont this

> > bring us back to the poetry/prose disctinction?  and

> > what do we do about that?

> 

> i've been following this thread with my usual recognition of how very

> little i know and understand about all these ideas.  I've consistently

> said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

> something less or more than a novel?  I honestly have no background or

> idea.  And what does Beat Generation literature do in altering the

> conceptions of the novel?  What does the Beat Generation literature do

> to determine what constitutes the great American novel -- with the

> notions of quality in connection with the novel itself?  Some have

> mentioned linearity and non-linearity -- what about the 20th Century

> suggests the need for redefinition towards the exploding (or imploding)

> of linearity?  Naked Lunch is suggested as an exemplar of 20th Century

> non-linearity but what motive pushes us towards non-linearity as a model

> of quality, and if non-linearity is a pre-requisite of quality i wonder

> about the notion of models and exemplars and if they may withstand the

> same motivations that push against linearity.  What is the difference

> between history and novel?  Between poetry and novel?  Between

> philosophy or social theory and novel?

> 

> As you can see I have questions oh so many questions but very little

> background or understanding of the matter.  It seems partly a question

> of form, perhaps partly a question of substance.  I honestly haven't

> been able to tell so far from the discussion anything close to what the

> parameters of what is accepted as a novel might be.

> 

> Clueless in Kansas,

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> >

> > On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

> >

> > > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> > >

> > > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> > > Novel"?

> > >

> > > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> > >

> > > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> > > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> > >

> > > I figure that will be worth a try.

> > >

> > > Best,

> > >

> > > Harold Rhenisch

> > > rhenisch@web-trek.net

> > >

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:07:33 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <B08BBFDB-17A88E@204.244.157.69>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

canonization, baby.  the only reason anything in

literature is deemed "the best."  and whether we like

it or not, we all feel the need to canonize, whether

we say something is best or worst, what we teach to

our students, or even what we buy yo read.  whether we

try to redefine the canon or stay within its

traditional bounds...uts all about deciding what is

and is not worthy of remembrance.

j donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

 

> I was asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel". It

> strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a

> reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the

> favourite.

> 

> Best,

> 

> 

> Harold Rhenisch

> rhenisch@web-trek.net

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:12:12 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: the great novel debate

Comments: To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>

In-Reply-To:  <346698D8.418B@comic.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

it was just a matter of time before it was mentioned.

and i dont think anyone will disagree on the selection.

maybe kerouac is a given in any great american writer

debate?  and to repond here to someone elses posting,

i dont see why kerouac cannot be the great american

writer.  if anyone, than him.  embracing all genres,

all modes of thought, conscious of the tradition he

was writing against, in, and for, he certainly

embodied all a writer should strive for, in all modes.

j donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:

 

> > Subject:

> >         The Great American Novel

> >   Date:

> >         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700

> >   From:

> >         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

> >

> >

> > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> >

> > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> > Novel"?

> >

> > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> >

> > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> >

> > I figure that will be worth a try.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > Harold Rhenisch

> > rhenisch@web-trek.net

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> WHY HAS NO ONE MENTIONED 'ON THE ROAD' TO BE THE BEST NOVEL OF THE 20TH

> CENTURY?????????  If you want americana, it's got it, front to back, all

> facets of america is shown....

> 

> that would be my vote.

> 

> cathy

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:13:12 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder

In-Reply-To:  <SIMEON.9711100028.B@ecs4m95.virginia.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

could you send out the information for the rest of us

to find or order?  thanks.

j donahue

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

 

> greetings Beat-l people,

> 

> i recently came across a tape of Gary Snyder reciting

> pomes with the music accompaniment of the Paul Winter

> consort. called Turtle Island as many of the pieces

> are from that book. the performance ca. 1979. has

> anyone listened to it? he has a calm reading style, at

> times quite animated.

> 

> what about other recordings?

> 

> 

> 

> Eric

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:14:05 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <SIMEON.9711100012.C@ecs4m95.virginia.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

we ask, and its all mark twains fault...

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

 

> why the "Great American Novel" in the first place? in the vernacular its

> usually referenced as a joke.

> 

> is there any single Great French novel? or European NOvel? or ... the

> great New York novel? what about the Great Novel of the 19th Century

> Written in Arkansas. is the writernessship of Americans actually

> distinctly classifiable? the question of course is basically no more

> than this if your taking the role of admiring reader, fan: what is your

> favorite novel; if your trying to analyze literary history: what had the

> most impact; or what novel attains some high conceptualization of ART,

> anyhow there aint never gonna be no concensus.

> 

> adios,

> Eric

> 

> ecs4m@virginia.edu

> 

> "reason is such a trickster"  -- Sextus Empiricus

> 

> 

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700 Harold Rhenisch

> <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET> wrote:

> 

> > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> >

> > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> > Novel"?

> >

> > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> >

> > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> >

> > I figure that will be worth a try.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > Harold Rhenisch

> > rhenisch@web-trek.net

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:23:31 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Marcos L. Chavarri" <mlopez@EUROPAMC.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

One of the best authors is not a books writer.

I am talking about William Eisner. You know he is not a beat, that is what

i think.

He did the best comic i have never read THE SPIRIT. it was pure black

cinema.

I have read another publications from him In the Eye of the Storm &

Contract with God

I know comic is not very popular but i think Will Eisner is one of the

greatest of this century.

Marcos L. Chavarri

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:27:33 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Donahue wrote:

> 

> your questios are well put, and will certainly give me

> much to think about.  and im afraid i cant say that,

> at this point, they can be anything more than

> rhetorical - i dont believe there are any short

> answers, so i wont even try.  but im glad you asked

> them, because i believe i jumped into this discussion

> with first defining my parameters...and that was

> dangerous.  and although i dont think i can help bring

> anything to these questions right now, i can say that

> i will give them some serious thought.  and maybe ican

> return to them after that.  thank you.

> j donahue

> 

 

Damn!  I was really hoping there were easy answers to these questions.

oh well....

 

still cold in Kansas ... i will hybernate again.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

> 

> > James Donahue wrote:

> > >

> > > in this question, are you asking which novel is the

> > > great american novel, or are you asking about the

> > > "genre" of great american novel?  the first question

> > > has been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and

> > > fitzgerald being specifically named in the

> > > discussion).  as to the other choice, i dont know what

> > > you mean.  but i believe that we have decided on this

> > > questions undecidability.  but id love to discuss

> > > alternatives to the genre "novel".  but wont this

> > > bring us back to the poetry/prose disctinction?  and

> > > what do we do about that?

> >

> > i've been following this thread with my usual recognition of how very

> > little i know and understand about all these ideas.  I've consistently

> > said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

> > something less or more than a novel?  I honestly have no background or

> > idea.  And what does Beat Generation literature do in altering the

> > conceptions of the novel?  What does the Beat Generation literature do

> > to determine what constitutes the great American novel -- with the

> > notions of quality in connection with the novel itself?  Some have

> > mentioned linearity and non-linearity -- what about the 20th Century

> > suggests the need for redefinition towards the exploding (or imploding)

> > of linearity?  Naked Lunch is suggested as an exemplar of 20th Century

> > non-linearity but what motive pushes us towards non-linearity as a model

> > of quality, and if non-linearity is a pre-requisite of quality i wonder

> > about the notion of models and exemplars and if they may withstand the

> > same motivations that push against linearity.  What is the difference

> > between history and novel?  Between poetry and novel?  Between

> > philosophy or social theory and novel?

> >

> > As you can see I have questions oh so many questions but very little

> > background or understanding of the matter.  It seems partly a question

> > of form, perhaps partly a question of substance.  I honestly haven't

> > been able to tell so far from the discussion anything close to what the

> > parameters of what is accepted as a novel might be.

> >

> > Clueless in Kansas,

> >

> > david rhaesa

> > salina, Kansas

> > >

> > > On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

> > >

> > > > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> > > >

> > > > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> > > > Novel"?

> > > >

> > > > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> > > >

> > > > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> > > > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> > > >

> > > > I figure that will be worth a try.

> > > >

> > > > Best,

> > > >

> > > > Harold Rhenisch

> > > > rhenisch@web-trek.net

> > > >

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:30:10 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Donahue wrote:

> 

> we ask, and its all mark twains fault...

> 

 

maybe Huckelberry Finn can be the great 20th century american novel in

reprint <grin>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:13:58 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      mr maher's narcissim

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote: (snip)

 

> I have no "genre." What I do have is an impulsive delight in playing with

> words, any words, that lay before me in a most horrible turgid manner. They,

> the very instruments of my fancy abused to the point of recklessness. They

> pitted into cliches and sucked out left bloodless and void of insight and

> meaning. I seize these words and turn them on their backs with their legs

> grasping at thin air like turtles upended by a cruel child, and I watch them

> struggle feebly, disabled momentarily. I assume the chance to solicit the

> very response I take the time to engender.

 

___________i take it from this that this attitude toward the pomes you parodied

from list members on the list implies that they were turgid, and therfore free

game to 'play' with and insult list poets. your very imagery if you care to look

up, is violent smug and nasty.there is no excuse for doing what you do to

 other's

words.

 

again you wrote:

"My

existential obsession is constantly to mimetize myslef."

-__________so as this is in continued and every grandiose rationalization for

having tromped on other's words AND feelings, i guess you think that others are

you. how long have you had this feeling or thought that you were king of the

universe?

 

i swore i wouldn't get back into this gnarly mess, but it drives me wild to see

someone  continue to fatten their ego in the face of requests to stop sniping at

others on the list.

watch out, mr maher, you're about to fall into that pond and drown.

i believe you abuse and not use your signature quote:

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

 

                                        Henry David Thoreau

i do believe that henry did mean that this gives license to act without manners

 or

care for the feelings of others.

sincerely

mc

 

 

 

>    Alas, the universe is a whole. How can that be denied? Just as man

> breathes eighteen times a minute, or 25,920 times a day, the equinoctial

> point of the sun runs through the zodiac once in every 25,920 years. Our

> hearts beat only one-fourth as fast as our lungs breathe, just as the speed

> of the propagation of air is four times greater than a film that records the

> variety of the phenomena of the universe. I am convinced that I am of this

> world itself, that I embody the living nucleus of the landscape. My

> existential obsession is constantly to mimetize myslef. Like it, I am a

> cathedral of strength with a nimbus of dreamlike delirium. My granite

> structure is equipped with ductilities, haze, glint, quicksands, that hide

> its needles, its craters, its promontories, the better to let me keep my

> secrets.  P.

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:39:59 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      it was a dark and stormy night

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

the top of his doghouse.

mc

just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

whole thread ...

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:48:26 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <3466C612.7D99@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

sure, and while we are at it, lets not forget poe and

all his rules for decent prose...at least then we will

have something to go by...

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> James Donahue wrote:

> >

> > we ask, and its all mark twains fault...

> >

> 

> maybe Huckelberry Finn can be the great 20th century american novel in

> reprint <grin>

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:51:33 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

In-Reply-To:  <199711101241.HAA02407@pike.sover.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

it was a dark and stormy night when we began this

discussion (at least in brockton, anyway).

maybe its time we found something else to discuss.

anybody feel like talking about kerouac?

by the way, somebody told me about a new recording

that came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and

musicians reading kerouacs works.  does ahybody know

if this exists, and how i might get a copy?

james donahue

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

> the top of his doghouse.

> mc

> just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

> whole thread ...

> mc

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:48:00 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      GAN

 

Don't want to beat this subject to death but several interesting

questions have been raised.  Why a great American novel vs european etc.

My feeling is that it's part of capitalist competition motive and

American quest to champion opportunities of Individual.   It's not just

good enough to do something well, you've got to be the best whether

you're Ernest Hemingway, Bernie Williams, or Bill Gates.  Hemingway

often compared himself to other writers (usually using boxing

metaphors); Kerouac wanted to outdo Shakespeare.  Of course, the whole

notion of a Great American Novel is silly but look how much fun people

on the list have discussing it.  I don't think they'll ever be ONE Great

American Novel but certainly a number of books mentioned fit into a

"genre" or "sub-genre" of that type:  The Great Gatsby, On The Road (I'd

include Town & the City too), Huck Finn, Moby Dick, and, if it's not

cheating, John Dos Passos' USA trilogy, which I believe influenced

Kerouac a good deal, though I can't prove it.    I think the great

American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the

American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America lives

with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't matter

whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

situation.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:35:13 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Donahue wrote:

> 

> it was a dark and stormy night when we began this

> discussion (at least in brockton, anyway).

> maybe its time we found something else to discuss.

> anybody feel like talking about kerouac?

> by the way, somebody told me about a new recording

> that came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and

> musicians reading kerouacs works.  does ahybody know

> if this exists, and how i might get a copy?

> james donahue

> 

> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> > my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

> > the top of his doghouse.

> > mc

> > just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

> > whole thread ...

> > mc

> >

Kerouac - Kicks Joy Darkness

 

RCD#10329

 

Rykodisc USA, Shetland Park, 27 Congress Street, Sale, MA 09170

 

or

 

Rykodisc Ltd. 78 Stanley Gardens, London W3 7SZ UK

 

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:32:58 -0000

Reply-To:     dcaridade@geocities.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         dcaridade <dcaridade@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      Changing my email address

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Sorry about bothering all of you with this, but I've been having some

trouble with my current email address, does anyone know how can I change my

email in this list?

Should I subscribe again under another address? Or is there an easier way?

 

Thanks, and my apologies (again) for the bother...

daniel caridade

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:44:21 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

 

James, it's called "kicks, joy, darkness".  Borders, Virgin and Tower all

carry it here.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Donahue

Sent:   Monday, November 10, 1997 8:51 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: it was a dark and stormy night

 

it was a dark and stormy night when we began this

discussion (at least in brockton, anyway).

maybe its time we found something else to discuss.

anybody feel like talking about kerouac?

by the way, somebody told me about a new recording

that came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and

musicians reading kerouacs works.  does ahybody know

if this exists, and how i might get a copy?

james donahue

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

> the top of his doghouse.

> mc

> just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

> whole thread ...

> mc

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:55:20 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: GAN

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997111010053370@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

beat-l'ers

i just thought that i would throw my hat into the fray a lttle bit and

reply to some of the below ...

i think that the great american novel changes depending on the decade and

the poopular beliefs that you are examining the book thru and as

reflecting (for instance, some would argue that "sometimes a great

notion" or "on the road" or" the great gatsby" or "naked lunch" or "the

sun also rises" or... is the

GAN, but each reflects a different era and way of looking at america. for

instance was 'naked lunch" even conceivable when "the great gatsby" was

written?)

        the novel has gone thru a great amount of changes, in my opinion,

esp since the creation of the "modern novel" (be that the effect of

joyce's _ulysses_ and woolf's _mrs.dalloway_) and can pre and post "modern

novel" novels be measured together? can any two genres be compared?

        and on another note altogether - from what i understand, BIll,

while i cant think of any reference that kerouac made to DosPassos and the

USA Trilogy, i know that BUrroughs thought of it as a great influence and

i do belive refered to it as a precursor to the cut-up and filmic

techniques that he used later on (ask neil hennessy abt the filmic

techniques of wsburroughs...)

        does any one else know more abt Dos Passos and his influence on

beat lit?

yrs

derek

 On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> 

> Don't want to beat this subject to death but several interesting

> questions have been raised.  Why a great American novel vs european etc.

> My feeling is that it's part of capitalist competition motive and

> American quest to champion opportunities of Individual.   It's not just

> good enough to do something well, you've got to be the best whether

> you're Ernest Hemingway, Bernie Williams, or Bill Gates.  Hemingway

> often compared himself to other writers (usually using boxing

> metaphors); Kerouac wanted to outdo Shakespeare.  Of course, the whole

> notion of a Great American Novel is silly but look how much fun people

> on the list have discussing it.  I don't think they'll ever be ONE Great

> American Novel but certainly a number of books mentioned fit into a

> "genre" or "sub-genre" of that type:  The Great Gatsby, On The Road (I'd

> include Town & the City too), Huck Finn, Moby Dick, and, if it's not

> cheating, John Dos Passos' USA trilogy, which I believe influenced

> Kerouac a good deal, though I can't prove it.    I think the great

> American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the

> American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

> believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America lives

> with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't matter

> whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

> realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

> situation.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:01:01 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      kerouac:kicks, joy, darkness

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

James,

  The Kerouac recording you're thinking of is probably "Kerouac:

Kicks, Joy, Darkness," a CD including the likes of Patti Smith,

Michael Stipe, and others reading Kerouac's pomes. As far as I know,

it's widely available, just go to your local music store and ask for

it. I know for sure that it's available through CDNow, whose web site

is at www.cdnow

      Maggie G.

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:06:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: kerouac:kicks, joy, darkness

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Maggie Gerrity wrote:

> 

> James,

>   The Kerouac recording you're thinking of is probably "Kerouac:

> Kicks, Joy, Darkness," a CD including the likes of Patti Smith,

> Michael Stipe, and others reading Kerouac's pomes. As far as I know,

> it's widely available, just go to your local music store and ask for

> it. I know for sure that it's available through CDNow, whose web site

> is at www.cdnow

>       Maggie G.

> 

 

CD Now is also accessible from Keith's Beat web page

 

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

 

throw something on the Wall while you're passing through.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

> __________________________________________________________________

> Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:42:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: kerouac:kicks, joy, darkness

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:06 AM 11/10/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Maggie Gerrity wrote:

>> 

>> James,

>>   The Kerouac recording you're thinking of is probably "Kerouac:

>> Kicks, Joy, Darkness," a CD including the likes of Patti Smith,

>> Michael Stipe, and others reading Kerouac's pomes. As far as I know,

>> it's widely available, just go to your local music store and ask for

>> it. I know for sure that it's available through CDNow, whose web site

>> is at www.cdnow

>>       Maggie G.

>> 

> 

>CD Now is also accessible from Keith's Beat web page

> 

>http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

> 

As well as The Kerouac Quarterly:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

>throw something on the Wall while you're passing through.

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

> 

>> __________________________________________________________________

>> Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:49:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PCW.3.91.971110030541.10622C-100000@donahujl.bc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

To hell with the canon! I remember talking about this in high school and

how the canon was so lacking in diversity. I used to feel that there were

certain books that I had to read in order to be well-read but now, I know

better. I read everything...

 

 

 

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, James Donahue wrote:

 

> canonization, baby.  the only reason anything in

> literature is deemed "the best."  and whether we like

> it or not, we all feel the need to canonize, whether

> we say something is best or worst, what we teach to

> our students, or even what we buy yo read.  whether we

> try to redefine the canon or stay within its

> traditional bounds...uts all about deciding what is

> and is not worthy of remembrance.

> j donahue

> 

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

> 

> > I was asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel". It

> > strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a

> > reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the

> > favourite.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> >

> > Harold Rhenisch

> > rhenisch@web-trek.net

> >

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:57:03 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Donald,

 

Nice to make the discovery of Snyder, who comes up off and on and the

list but is still often ignored on this list.  Were we to check back in

in 50 years or so (which is unlikely for some of us) I would not be

suprised to see GS seen as the most important of the Beat poets.

 

I became addicted to Snyder through "Myths and Texts" and "Rip Rap"

which are early, close to the Japhy Ryder stuff.  One should obviously

get his new magnum opus "Mountains and Rivers".

 

J. Stauffer

 

Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:

 

> Can anyone recommend anything to me besides, TURTLE ISLAND, which he just

> signed and I began reading tonight?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:17:23 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: GAN

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> I think the great

> American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the

> American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

> believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America lives

> with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't matter

> whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

> realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

> situation.

 

I would agree that what I would hesitantly call. the great American

novel, must deal with the American spirit and the American dream.  It

also goes back to Kerouac's ideas of genius and the fact that at some

point a writer will emerge whose genius will be so apparent that he or

she will take writing to somewhere it has never gone before.  And the

time will emerge when this writer is an American. This is strictly of

course a personal assessment on my part but no writer that can do this

has risen from America or any other country since James Joyce.  Finnegans

Wake took both language and the possibilities of human thought beyond

where they had ever gone before and no one today has had the depth to go

beyond Finnegans Wake.  There are those that even today label Finnegans

Wake as unreadable and whoever makes the next breakthrough in literature

will probably also be characterized as unreadable.  It would also not be

appropriate to think that someone would write the "American" Finnegans

Wake, for that would only be an attempt once again to imitate what has

been done.  But to relate this to beat writers, I do think that we can

call Allen Ginsberg, the greatest American poet of this century.  He

broke through traditional ideas of poetry to create a new foundation on

which poetry will grow, he crashed through the ideas and boundaries that

had limited poetry to forever put it on a new plane.  As for what a novel

is, the most you can say today is that is is prose placed between two

covers.  The tradition notions of character, development, and plot will

never exist again.  Now given Kerouac's own definition of genius I would

venture to say he thought of himself as one for initiating spontaneous

prose.  I love reading Kerouac and there is no question that you could

pick up anything he has written, and say in a few moments, "yes, Kerouac

wrote this."  I believe that he did want to be the greatest American

writer of this century and that he wanted his canon of works to represent

that.  But I believe he failed (and I'm sure this can lead to much

discussion) because, although his writing deals with universal themes and

feelings, it fails on an intellectual level to encompass the totality of

human experience.  And it is perhaps his devotion to the spontaneous that

brought this about.  He really did nothing other than write a semi-stream

of consciousness that was spontaneous.  No doubt he thought Visions of

Cody to be his most ambitious effort because he did try to incorporate

dream and instantaneous recorded thought and build something.  You can

see his admiration of both Joyce and Proust in it but his own creation

did not break open any new boundaries.  Burroughs, on the other hand, had

a more intellectual type of genius, and his work skirted the boundaries

and capabilities of language.  He, however, did not have the knack of

applying his ideas with a universal appeal to make him "the" novelist of

this century.  Ideally, perhaps his mind combined with Kerouac's

readability would have come close.  So to end my argument, I would say

that the next great "American" novelist will deal with American

consciousness and a universal unconscious, and he or she will "craft"

something that will go beyond anything that has been written before, and

that means in terms of writing it will develop the next level beyond

Finnegans Wake.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:51:08 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

In-Reply-To:  <346729B1.679D@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

thank you much.

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:35:13 -0600 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

 

>James Donahue wrote:

>> 

>> it was a dark and stormy night when we began this

>> discussion (at least in brockton, anyway).

>> maybe its time we found something else to discuss.

>> anybody feel like talking about kerouac?

>> by the way, somebody told me about a new recording

>> that came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and

>> musicians reading kerouacs works.  does ahybody know

>> if this exists, and how i might get a copy?

>> james donahue

>> 

>> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

>> 

>> > my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

>> > the top of his doghouse.

>> > mc

>> > just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

>> > whole thread ...

>> > mc

>> >

>Kerouac - Kicks Joy Darkness

> 

>RCD#10329

> 

>Rykodisc USA, Shetland Park, 27 Congress Street, Sale, MA 09170

> 

>or

> 

>Rykodisc Ltd. 78 Stanley Gardens, London W3 7SZ UK

> 

>david

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:45:36 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane Carter wrote:

> You can

> see his admiration of both Joyce and Proust in it but his own creation

> did not break open any new boundaries.

> DC

 

i'm definitely not ready to drop the notion of the GAN quest (i'm

formulating quite a few strings and ethereal amuricanism which hopefully

will meld in a foundry cauldron over the coming days to suggest

concerning these)....

 

BUT,

these words from Diane made me realize something which i hadn't thought

about before and which i'd love to know more about.

 

How did Kerouac read?  When did he read?

 

I've read much about his methods and disciplines in writing (and am

still frankly in awe of his focus -- oh that i could get some Ritalin

prescribed <grin>)

 

I've read quite a bit about the heated discussions between he and other

Beat "characters" about literature -- wolfeans and anti-wolfeans (as

opposed to Woolfeans and anti-Woolfeans i suppose).

 

BUT

I've not heard much accounting for his practices and habits concerning

Reading itself.

 

I'd be interested for those "in the know" to tell a bit about his

reading phases and when, what, where, how, etc. he devoured the

literature he grounded his writings in.

 

Hope lots of you have input.

 

The sun is shining again in Kansas.  A lovely day indeed.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:09:03 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Erotic in Burroughs (esp. Naked Lunch)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; boundary="Part9711101703A"

 

--Part9711101703A

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET="US-ASCII"

 

 

 

Just a followup to my posting about the erotic in WSB.

I just finshed my essay!  Hurrah!  A whole ten mintues in front  of the

 deadline!

I've attached a copy incase anyone's interested.

Love to the whole world (I'm so happy - I've been working on the damn thing all

week).

Peace.

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"Langauge is a virus."

 

--Part9711101703A

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AAAMQwA=

 

--Part9711101703A--

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:58:03 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi Nancy, I love your spiritedness, I still want to answer your post-.

 

The emergemce of a top flower that just approaches perfection more than the

vast number of specimen that are all reaching for it, is just a fact of

nature. Whatever I am looking at, from a to z, including marijuana, or

physical strength or beauty, wheat fields produced by nature, art produced

by persons, there are the vast majority, the avarage, pretty good enough to

survive, but have to strain everything they got just to do that, to survive.

Usually the first taste of it overwhelms you with how great it is, but it

don't stay long, leaves you tired and exhausted. Had to strain too much. A

very few are not equipped well enough to survive. Poor specimen. Sad. But no

less value in the scheme of things. I too enjoy my life, even though I drop

my jaws in awe when I see what other people are producing. Dismissing

unequal endowment as "just competition" to outdo each other just looks away

from the fact of nature.

 

I like Diane's calling to our attention Kerouac's distinctions between

talent and genius. (Thanks Diane, I so often want to say thanks Diane) Lots

of us strain our talents to do something good with it, many of us succeed,

barely.

 

In human mind matters we call the very, very few top flowers "genius". What

was the dream of many writers, to produce the great american novel, was many

times a metaphor for the dream of saying it all in a manner that elnlightens

about everything and inspires the imagination of the reader to get the full

story. Of course there are zillions of beautiful, inspiring and illuminating

sories, but somewhere is the genius above all other geniuses that every

connoiseur is dying to encounter, that will weave the details into the full

picture, lots of ways to say it. We always are on the lookout for that

essence captured in its richness of details in an appetizing appealing work

that shows it all to us, no matter how complex.

 

Maybe OTR did this for the post wwII educated white middle class american

youth. But where is the book of the century that starts plunging  into the

currents of America, the frontrunner of the Western world history and

culture wher the families nations and races of the past move in together one

way or another in strife misery and mistreating each other, their environent

and each other but somehow also forced into melding together, building vast

technologies, a new race in the making, in turbulent, dynamic action and

power hungry arm twisting moving from pen to computer, from ground to air

locomotion, where is the work that will hold it all up to us like a dazzling

mirror to the imagination. Some genius will be there using all the tools

available, then we will know it when we see it. Just like Shakespeare or

Beethoven stood out of the crowd. We'll know them when we see them. And yes,

absolutely let's enjoy whatever beauty is produced all around us avey day,

everywhere.

 

leon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sunday, November 09, 1997 10:50 AM

Subject: Re: another Kerouac?

 

 

>Why does there have to be ONE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL? I would think that

>there would be many such novels, especially, when one takes in

>consideration, the number of genres that are out there and, also, how

>writing styles of changed in the past one  hundred years. Trying to

>choose  THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL from many different genres is like

>comparing apples and oranges. Why don't we just sit back and enjoy whats

>out there? Not everything has to be a competition.

>~Nancy

> 

> 

> 

>On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

> 

>> i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

>> actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region,

class,

>> race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce

to

>> encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

>> Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

>> 

>> much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i

fear

>> the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps,

have

>> a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

>> 

>> ciao,

>> sherri

>> 

>> ----------

>> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

>> Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

>> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>> Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

>> 

>> Joey,

>> 

>> I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

>> closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

>> the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

>> 

>> There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

>> of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

>> 

>> J. Stauffer

>> 

>> Joey Mellott wrote:

>> 

>> >

>> > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of

the

>> > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

>> 

> 

>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

>Sure-JK

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:04:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M .Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: GAN

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

> Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> I think the great

> American novel has to embody the contradictions

>that characterize the American dream -- has to

>capture the spirit that led Americans to believe that

>they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America

>lives with its failed expectations.  From my point of

>view, it doesn't matter whether or not the novel is

>linear or not, whether it's symbolic or realistic or a

>historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

>> situation.

 

 

From: _War of the Classes_ - Jack London

 

"Just about this time, returning from a seven

months' voyage before the mast, and just turned

eighteen, I took it into my head to go tramping.

On rods and blind baggages I fought my way from

the open West, where men bucked big and the job

hunted the man, to the congested labor centres of

the East, where men were small potatoes and hunted

the job for all they were worth.  And on this new

"blond-beast" adventure I found myself looking upon

life from a new and totally different angle.  I had

dropped down from the proletariat into what sociologists

love to call the "submerged tenth," and I was startled

to discover the way in which that submerged tenth

was recruited.

 

I found there all sorts of men, many of whom had once

been as good as myself, and just as "blond-beastly";

sailor-men, soldier-men, labor-men, all wrenched and

distorted and twisted out of shape by toil and hardship and

accident, and cast adrift by their masters like so many

old horses.  I battered on the drag and slammed back

gates with them, or shivered with them in box cars and

city parks, listening the while to life-histories which began

under auspices as fair as mine, with digestions and

bodies to equal mine, and which ended there before my

eyes in the shambles at the bottom of the Social Pit.

 

And as I listened my brain began to work.  The woman

of the streets and the man of the gutter drew very close

to me.  I saw the pictue of the Social Pit as vividly as

though it were a concrete thing, and at the bottom of the

Pit I saw them, myself above them, not far, and hanging

on to the slippery wall by main strength and sweat.  And

I confess a terror seized me.  What when my strength

failed?  When I should be unable to work shoulder to

shoulder with the strong men who were as yet babes unborn?

And there and then I swore a great oath.  It ran something

like this:  All my days I have worked hard with my body,

and according to the number of days I have worked, by just

that much am I nearer the bottom of the Pit.  I shall

climb out of the Pit, but not by the muscles of my body shall

I climb out.  I shall do no more hard work; and may God

strike me dead if I do another day's hard work with my

body more than I absolutely have to do.  And I have been

busy ever since running away from hard work."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:06:32 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

 

What about the Grape American Novel?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:38:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

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Jack Kerouac's literature can be grounded, surely, by what he read. Profound

external influences enhanced his education, that of friends who were also

well read in most phases of his life where the mind is impressionable and is

ready to absrob abstract thought. Part of what Kerouac is all about can be

stemmed from his early reading of Spengler's Decline of the West. With this

work and others like it grounded into his aesthetic consciousness, he is

able to affirm to his self and to others who were conducive to his

objectives as a writer, that what he wanted above all was to nurture a

"secret ambition to be a tremendous life-changing prophetic artist" (Letter

to Neal Cassady 1-8-51).

  Spengeler writes, "The text of a conviction is never a test of its

reality, for man is rarely conscious of his own beliefs."(Spengler, 179).

Kerouac knew this and tested this throughout his life as a writer and as an

observer. Reading, the very act of it as a writer reading the work of

another writer is on another level than one who reads for pleasure alone. It

is a sort of research. A small list in the quarterly shows that Kerouac had

a gamut of titles on his shelf. Christopher Smart, Joyce,Ezra Pound, Alan

Harrington's Secret Swinger, Vladimir Nabokov "the world's greatest living

writer" Jack had inscribed into his copy of the book, "Lolita", and Jean

Genet. Early Kerouac texts shows an influence of Hemingway, Proust, Saroyan,

Thomas Mann, and Wolfe. The mighty surge of words in Town and the City lends

evidence to Kerouac's revernece to Melville and Balzac, the act of writing a

huge opus which he had "laboured through poverty, disease, and beraevement

and madness" (Letter to Ginsberg, April 1948). That reading plays a huge

part in what captures the soul of Kerouac's writing is so evident it demands

a dissertation to try and pick apart the very influences that pervades

throughout his work.   P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:21:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

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> I've consistently

>said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

>something less or more than a novel?  I

 

     regarding this segmenting of literature into cubby holes.  I'm

looking forward to what I hope will happen as a natural progressio in

writing, and what I try to do in my own writing, that is the breakdown

of barriers of prose, poetry, music, etc.  so that we meld poetry with

prose more fluidly than ever.  jack and the other beatrs obviously had

this notion and worked at it, it's not a new discovery by any means,

but has much farther to go.  what i think is happening is a

post-post-mdernist stream of consciousness trend, but one that defies

all accepted means of writing.  I guarantee you that it will  be

scoffed at, that people will deem it confusing and unintelligible, but

isn't that always the way? haven't we seen that before?  we might call

it something like stream of intuition.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:23:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

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>perhaps a great american novel need not exist.

>perhaps the great american novel should not exist

 

     perhaps it's been written and hastely tossed in a fireplace

immediately afterward.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:25:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

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>I was asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel". It

>strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a

>reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the

>favourite.

 

     well, as far as my motives for thinking about this topic, i always

look at method before content.  I've reiterated the saying before and

i'll push it on you all again, it's not what you write, but how you

write it.  if anyone disagrees i'd like to hear their viewpoint.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:34:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

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>Thanks for the reply. A good start, but what do we understand 'novel' to

>mean? Why will it not be linear? Why will it not even have plot in the

>traditional sense? This all must have something to do with what makes it

>great and american, right?

 

     well, as i said before, i'm looking at method.  why won't it be

linear?  for the same reason the post-modernists don't paint like

monet, for the same reason the impressionists didn't paint like the

artists before them.  is it necessarily better as time progresses? that

could be argued either way.  I think as far as America is concerned

non-linear, unrational, plotlessness is what we need right now.  the

majority of lit out there now has fallen behind "cultural progression,"

and not wthout reason.  our conscousnesses must change in order for us

to catch up with circumstances in our time.  we have to stop trying to

order the chaos and embrace it, to be mad drunken observers of a sort.

greatness is a bad word, i take it only to mean the next step in

literature.  great american novels have been written.  On the Road,

Gatsby, Grapes of Wrath, East of Eden, A River Runs Through It, there

are a lot.  artists have "to art" in their times, for their times, and

for everyone in that time, or their art is only pseudo-intellectual

garbage.  and so we need to spawn lit through the disheveled

consciousness of our time infused with the hopes of the future.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:43:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

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>___________i take it from this that this attitude toward the pomes you

>parodied

>from list members on the list implies that they were turgid, and

>therfore free

>game to 'play' with and insult list poets.

 

     i seem to remember a few people satirizing Howl on this list not

so long ago and they were not attacked.  if you can't take a little

cajoling or criticism then don't submit you're work for all of us to

look at.  and if the work wasn't yours, what the hell are you getting

your knickers in a bunch about?  granted, one should feel comfortable

submitting here without fear of mockery, but i'd like to think that

we're capable of handling these things in a manner of wild madliving

fun.  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

is unaffected wordlessness.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:47:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

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>I've read quite a bit about the heated discussions between he and other

>Beat "characters" about literature -- wolfeans and anti-wolfeans (as

>opposed to Woolfeans and anti-Woolfeans i suppose).

>BUT

>I've not heard much accounting for his practices and habits concerning

>Reading itself.

 

     this, IMHO, is largely due to the fact that he began to refuse to

discuss literature as part of his dislike for academic

intellectualization.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:58:23 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

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Lots of apples rot on the ground. There are enough around, provided by

nature, there will be more apple trees.

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 10:43 AM

Subject: Re: The Great American Novel

 

 

>>perhaps a great american novel need not exist.

>>perhaps the great american novel should not exist

> 

>     perhaps it's been written and hastely tossed in a fireplace

>immediately afterward.

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:20:38 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

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-----Original Message-----

From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 10:54 AM

Subject: Re: mr maher's narcissim

 

 

>     i seem to remember a few people satirizing Howl on this list not

>so long ago and they were not attacked.

 

You are comparing parody of a poem that has received worldwide acclaim,

whose author is no longer alive, to smearing with feces the poetry of some

living person who is daring to make first hesitant steps to bare her soul to

friends, yes I thought we are friends, and getting vulgarities replacing her

words?!

 

Also, Mr Oullette, your advice to me would carry more weight if you had

bothered to look at what you so readily tsk. tsk,. me about.

 

Lastly, if you suggest we shouldn't be so thin skinned about being messed

around with, than how come you object when someone expresses honestly felt

reactions, that you don't approve of?

 

Think a little bit more and read before you leap into criticizing others,

and also look at yourself and take your own counsel, please.

 

leon

 

if you can't take a little

>cajoling or criticism then don't submit you're work for all of us to

>look at.  and if the work wasn't yours, what the hell are you getting

>your knickers in a bunch about?  granted, one should feel comfortable

>submitting here without fear of mockery, but i'd like to think that

>we're capable of handling these things in a manner of wild madliving

>fun.  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

>but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

>is unaffected wordlessness.

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:46:07 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

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Tyson

 

I agree with most of what you have to say.  I am all for free speech and

the freedom to disagree.  I agree that if one posts anything they should

expect a critical response.  But read Maher's piece.  It clearly goes

way beyond the borders of good taste, and certainly of any civility

toward fellow listmemembers.  There is a social context to this list.

These are all real people, people we talk to daily.  We can disagree all

we want, but what Paul posted was in lamentable taste--juvenile,

meansprited and unnecessary.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

> but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

> is unaffected wordlessness.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:39:40 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

 

Tyson, the tone in which something is done accounts for everything.  to parody

Howl lovingly is one thing.  to denigrate it, because you don't like it, is

another.

 

also, it is wise to read what happens before one comments.  it gives a better

background to what's going on than simply approaching something from a totally

idealistic standpoint.  i know, because i've been guilty of it.  :-)

 

ciao, sherri

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Tyson Ouellette

Sent:   Monday, November 10, 1997 10:43 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: mr maher's narcissim

 

>___________i take it from this that this attitude toward the pomes you

>parodied

>from list members on the list implies that they were turgid, and

>therfore free

>game to 'play' with and insult list poets.

 

     i seem to remember a few people satirizing Howl on this list not

so long ago and they were not attacked.  if you can't take a little

cajoling or criticism then don't submit you're work for all of us to

look at.  and if the work wasn't yours, what the hell are you getting

your knickers in a bunch about?  granted, one should feel comfortable

submitting here without fear of mockery, but i'd like to think that

we're capable of handling these things in a manner of wild madliving

fun.  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

is unaffected wordlessness.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:54:14 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I really don't enjoy getting into frays such as this.  I've had some

regrets about my post about Paul's personality -- but nothing to lose

sleep over.  The line that hit the nerve that sparked my writing about

this was something at the end of one of his poems (not his revisions of

others) which used the word "crap" about the process of testing one's

creative juices out -- and especially that timid move we all face of

sharing poetic births with others.  While I was not particularly

victimized by Paul's satires -- i might actually have been less upset if

i had been vicitimized ironically (maybe i secretly felt left out

<Grin>), I felt that the hurdle we all go through to begin letting our

words flow and then the hurdle of sharing those words are definitely as

rough a road as a steeplechase.  To call by implication the products of

others crap seemed unduly foul.

 

On another note, I really appreciated Paul's quick post concerning my

questions about Kerouac and Reading.  Some of my wonderings were

certainly addressed.  More wonderings still remain in my original

questions.

 

I imagine that this will about hit my limit for 10 posts in a day (if

i'm not already over the limit).....

 

so ... off to a siesta

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

Sherri wrote:

> 

> Tyson, the tone in which something is done accounts for everything.  to parody

> Howl lovingly is one thing.  to denigrate it, because you don't like it, is

> another.

> 

> also, it is wise to read what happens before one comments.  it gives a better

> background to what's going on than simply approaching something from a totally

> idealistic standpoint.  i know, because i've been guilty of it.  :-)

> 

> ciao, sherri

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Tyson Ouellette

> Sent:   Monday, November 10, 1997 10:43 AM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: mr maher's narcissim

> 

> >___________i take it from this that this attitude toward the pomes you

> >parodied

> >from list members on the list implies that they were turgid, and

> >therfore free

> >game to 'play' with and insult list poets.

> 

>      i seem to remember a few people satirizing Howl on this list not

> so long ago and they were not attacked.  if you can't take a little

> cajoling or criticism then don't submit you're work for all of us to

> look at.  and if the work wasn't yours, what the hell are you getting

> your knickers in a bunch about?  granted, one should feel comfortable

> submitting here without fear of mockery, but i'd like to think that

> we're capable of handling these things in a manner of wild madliving

> fun.  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

> but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

> is unaffected wordlessness.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:55:41 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      BEAT GENERATION (fwd)

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beat-L'ers

i thought this might interest a few of you.

yrs

derek

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:20:09 -0500

From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@bigmagic.com>

Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

Subject: BEAT GENERATION

 

Wish to invite all those interested in the Beat Generation to my

website, where I am posting my unpublished book, THE BEAT PAPERS OF AL

ARONOWITZ, which includes a commentary on the death of Allen Ginsberg, a

discussion by Jack Kerouac and John Clellon Holmes on the origins of the

term, BEAT GENERATION, an interview with Kerouac and his mother

(annotated by Kerouac himself), an interview with Neal Casady in San

Quentin Prison (also annotated by Kerouac) plus original 1959 interviews

with other major BG figures.  These are the applicable URLs:

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column1.html

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column21.html

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column22.html

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column23.html

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column24.html

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column25.html

I am one of the first print journalists to take the Beat Generation

seriously and to report on it extensively in the New York Post in 1960.

-- Al Aronowitz

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:51:35 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

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-----Original Message-----

From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 10:54 AM

Subject: Re: mr maher's narcissim

 

 

Overlooked some  toher things you brought up:

 

>if you can't take a little

>>cajoling or criticism then don't submit you're work for all of us to

>>look at.

Since you seem to take upon yoursel editorial prerogatives to tell us what

we should or should not submit don't you think you should give us some

guidelines aso to what amounts to a little cajoling?

>>and if the work wasn't yours, what the hell are you getting

>>your knickers in a bunch about?

It is for you to think whatever you wish about what might motivate me to

object to defiling of someone's beautiful poetry.  I don't have to share

your guidelines about how much I have to be hit myself before I express my

disgust wuth behavior that I find disgusting.

And please, do me a favor, since you volunteered so cavalierly a comparison

between what you dignify as a parody without reading it, please read it and

then tell me if you still hold your guidance as calid.

leon

granted, one should feel comfortable

>>submitting here without fear of mockery, but i'd like to think that

>>we're capable of handling these things in a manner of wild madliving

>>fun.  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

>>but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

>>is unaffected wordlessness.

>>.-

>> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:08:21 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:06:32 EST from

              <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

 

Is that Steinbeck's grape work?  he h e h e

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:04:29 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971110183817.0069b020@pop.pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

paul ( and co.)

of course i agree with you that kerouac's work has a great amount of

intertext w/ other authors. BUT text can include much more than simply

printed words (some would insist that exitsance is "text") and kerouac is

as inspired by bird parker and bebop as he is by spengler and balzac (as

well as wolfe, joyce, etc...) and i wonder what in terms of art (graphic

art as opposed to printed art) kerouac found an influence.

        also - unfortunatley i think that b/c kerouac wrote abt himslef

(or was at least was inspired by his own life) his books and his life are

too often mixed. we should keep in mind burroughs reference to kerouac

being an "author" above all else - kerouac wrote fiction! (and while much

of the events are inspired by his own life and such - he is strecthing and

confusing and manipulating the facts to create the story the way he wajts

to tell - for instance wsb's "fortune" and "allowance" that kerouac makes

reference to. i think thatwsb clearly makes it evident that there was no

fortune in "whatever happened to kerouac?"...)

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:09:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

hello,

 

checked out the tape from a university library, have no idea where its

available elsewhere, havent checked the major Beat-stuff distributers.

 

published by Living Earth Music, BMI.

theres an address for a Living Music catalog

PO box 68, Litchfield Conn. 06759

800-437-2281

 

thats all i know,

eric

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:13:12 -0800 James Donahue

<donahujl@BC.EDU> wrote:

 

> could you send out the information for the rest of us

> to find or order?  thanks.

> j donahue

> 

> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

> 

> > greetings Beat-l people,

> >

> > i recently came across a tape of Gary Snyder reciting

> > pomes with the music accompaniment of the Paul Winter

> > consort. called Turtle Island as many of the pieces

> > are from that book. the performance ca. 1979. has

> > anyone listened to it? he has a calm reading style, at

> > times quite animated.

> >

> > what about other recordings?

> >

> >

> >

> > Eric

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:01:09 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

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marie- i don't think Lucy would agree...

 

randall

> my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

> the top of his doghouse.

> mc

> just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

> whole thread ...

> mc

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:13:16 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: BEAT GENERATION (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Derek

 

I keep getting "Object not Found" for Aronowitz pages.  Any ideas how to

get these to come up?

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:21:20 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Joey Mellott <peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>

Subject:      Re: GAN

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I was a bit confused when I proclaimed Gatsby the GAN.  Fitzgerald and

Hemingway, like Henry Miller, Anais Nin, Artaud, et al, made the Beat

Generation possible, as precursors to a 24-7 bohemian lifestyle.

 

Gatsby was the GAN of its time.

 

And, of course, appreciation for Artaud dwindled except in a few musicians.

 

 

----------

> From: Derek A. Beaulieu <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: GAN

> Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 9:55 AM

> 

> beat-l'ers

> i just thought that i would throw my hat into the fray a lttle bit and

> reply to some of the below ...

> i think that the great american novel changes depending on the decade and

> the poopular beliefs that you are examining the book thru and as

> reflecting (for instance, some would argue that "sometimes a great

> notion" or "on the road" or" the great gatsby" or "naked lunch" or "the

> sun also rises" or... is the

> GAN, but each reflects a different era and way of looking at america. for

> instance was 'naked lunch" even conceivable when "the great gatsby" was

> written?)

>         the novel has gone thru a great amount of changes, in my opinion,

> esp since the creation of the "modern novel" (be that the effect of

> joyce's _ulysses_ and woolf's _mrs.dalloway_) and can pre and post

"modern

> novel" novels be measured together? can any two genres be compared?

>         and on another note altogether - from what i understand, BIll,

> while i cant think of any reference that kerouac made to DosPassos and

the

> USA Trilogy, i know that BUrroughs thought of it as a great influence and

> i do belive refered to it as a precursor to the cut-up and filmic

> techniques that he used later on (ask neil hennessy abt the filmic

> techniques of wsburroughs...)

>         does any one else know more abt Dos Passos and his influence on

> beat lit?

> yrs

> derek

>  On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> >

> > Don't want to beat this subject to death but several interesting

> > questions have been raised.  Why a great American novel vs european

etc.

> > My feeling is that it's part of capitalist competition motive and

> > American quest to champion opportunities of Individual.   It's not just

> > good enough to do something well, you've got to be the best whether

> > you're Ernest Hemingway, Bernie Williams, or Bill Gates.  Hemingway

> > often compared himself to other writers (usually using boxing

> > metaphors); Kerouac wanted to outdo Shakespeare.  Of course, the whole

> > notion of a Great American Novel is silly but look how much fun people

> > on the list have discussing it.  I don't think they'll ever be ONE

Great

> > American Novel but certainly a number of books mentioned fit into a

> > "genre" or "sub-genre" of that type:  The Great Gatsby, On The Road

(I'd

> > include Town & the City too), Huck Finn, Moby Dick, and, if it's not

> > cheating, John Dos Passos' USA trilogy, which I believe influenced

> > Kerouac a good deal, though I can't prove it.    I think the great

> > American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the

> > American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

> > believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America lives

> > with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't matter

> > whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

> > realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

> > situation.

> >

 

Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and jobless loafer

(peyotecoyote@iah.com)

"the socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little

bells (300 of horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."

- Antonin Artaud

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:17:55 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

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Marie Countryman wrote:

 

>my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

>the top of his doghouse.

 

I like that!

 

Harold Rhenisch

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:46:13 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      The Great Grape American European Novel Project

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Hey, I like the Grape American Novel.

 

Brautigan with his muscatel. Coppola with his vineyard. A cool cellar, a

loaf of bread, and lots of time.

 

Still, when we say "Great American Novel", don't we mean something more

than "Best American Novel"? What are the parameters for "Great"? or

"American"? For instance, Diane Carter suggested that the "Great American

Novel" should portray the American spirit and the American dream. Why?

Could there not be a more vital story? America is more than one story,

isn't it? Well, Hollywood may not think so, but that should put it into

perspective quickly. Or, to look at it from another sideways glance, the

Beats, esp. Bukowski, are extremely popular in Germany (and German

film-makers are awfully fond of the U.S.). To follow that: might not a

German write the Great American Novel? They already have "American"

restaurants, the way we have "French" ones. If not, why not?

 

What's more, "Great American Novel" suggests to me at least a sense of

universal definition, phrased, as Diane Carter asked for, in a new approach

to or extension of language. My take is that "Novel" is limitting here, as

others have suggested as well.

 

Best,

 

Harold

**

 

James Donahue wrote:

 

canonization, baby.  the only reason anything in

literature is deemed "the best."  and whether we like

it or not, we all feel the need to canonize, whether

we say something is best or worst, what we teach to

our students, or even what we buy yo read.  whether we

try to redefine the canon or stay within its

traditional bounds...uts all about deciding what is

and is not worthy of remembrance.

j donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

 

> I was asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel". It

> strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a

> reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the

> favourite.

> 

> Best,

> 

> 

> Harold Rhenisch

> rhenisch@web-trek.net

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:27:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Grape American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>Is that Steinbeck's grape work?  he h e h e

 

For anyone who's worked in a vineyard   hoe hoe hoe

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:28:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kathleen Beres <beresk@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <009BD161.EDE82A80.75@kenyon.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

im almost willing to bet that this question is easier to answer than the

great one...

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, THE ZET'S GOOD. wrote:

 

> What about the Grape American Novel?

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:33:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kathleen Beres <beresk@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <msg1199099.thr-58ddc224.55d4ae2@umit.maine.edu>

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well, i like the idea, but why a stream?  wouldnt an ocean be a

better metaphor?  rather than linear, it is infested with cross-

currents, but all contained somehow in this great expanse...

just a thought.

james donahue

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> > I've consistently

> >said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

> >something less or more than a novel?  I

> 

>      regarding this segmenting of literature into cubby holes.  I'm

> looking forward to what I hope will happen as a natural progressio in

> writing, and what I try to do in my own writing, that is the breakdown

> of barriers of prose, poetry, music, etc.  so that we meld poetry with

> prose more fluidly than ever.  jack and the other beatrs obviously had

> this notion and worked at it, it's not a new discovery by any means,

> but has much farther to go.  what i think is happening is a

> post-post-mdernist stream of consciousness trend, but one that defies

> all accepted means of writing.  I guarantee you that it will  be

> scoffed at, that people will deem it confusing and unintelligible, but

> isn't that always the way? haven't we seen that before?  we might call

> it something like stream of intuition.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:51:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: BEAT GENERATION (fwd)

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <34676ADC.339B@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

james (and co.)

all i now is what i posted. maybe try contacting oronowitz himself??

yrs

derek

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> 

> Derek

> 

> I keep getting "Object not Found" for Aronowitz pages.  Any ideas how to

> get these to come up?

> 

> James Stauffer

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:02:30 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.WNT.3.96.971110172816.-78945A-100000@kathy-s-pc>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

would that be Ralph Steadman's (he of "fear and loathing in Las Vegas"

illustration fame) book _the grapes of ralph_??

yrs in jest

derek

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Kathleen Beres wrote:

 

> 

> im almost willing to bet that this question is easier to answer than the

> great one...

> 

> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, THE ZET'S GOOD. wrote:

> 

> > What about the Grape American Novel?

> >

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:31:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kathleen Beres <beresk@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <msg1199109.thr-c628c7e8.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

perhaps danielle steele has been secretly working on it for years,

selling her trash only to make ends meet...

or maybe we are writing it now, in discourse...

or maybe its encoded in the bible...(for all of you following

that major discussion...)

james donahue

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >perhaps a great american novel need not exist.

> >perhaps the great american novel should not exist

> 

>      perhaps it's been written and hastely tossed in a fireplace

> immediately afterward.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:28:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: BEAT GENERATION (fwd)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi everybody,

 

        ...put blackj/ after /pages and then try - that'll work.

 

                Antoine

 

                ******************

James asked....

 

>beat-L'ers

>i thought this might interest a few of you.

>yrs

>derek

> 

>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:20:09 -0500

>From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@bigmagic.com>

>Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

>Subject: BEAT GENERATION

> 

>Wish to invite all those interested in the Beat Generation to my

>website, where I am posting my unpublished book, THE BEAT PAPERS OF AL

>ARONOWITZ, which includes a commentary on the death of Allen Ginsberg, a

>discussion by Jack Kerouac and John Clellon Holmes on the origins of the

>term, BEAT GENERATION, an interview with Kerouac and his mother

>(annotated by Kerouac himself), an interview with Neal Casady in San

>Quentin Prison (also annotated by Kerouac) plus original 1959 interviews

>with other major BG figures.  These are the applicable URLs:

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column1.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column21.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column22.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column23.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column24.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column25.html

>I am one of the first print journalists to take the Beat Generation

>seriously and to report on it extensively in the New York Post in 1960.

>-- Al Aronowitz

>***************************************

>Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:34:48 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: GAN

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Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> I think the great

> American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the

> American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

> believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America lives

> with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't matter

> whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

> realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

> situation.

 

Given this context, I nominate Vonnegut's "God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater."

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:55:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:04 PM 11/10/97 -0700, you wrote:

>paul ( and co.)

>of course i agree with you that kerouac's work has a great amount of

>intertext w/ other authors. BUT text can include much more than simply

>printed words (some would insist that exitsance is "text") and kerouac is

>as inspired by bird parker and bebop as he is by spengler and balzac (as

>well as wolfe, joyce, etc...) and i wonder what in terms of art (graphic

>art as opposed to printed art) kerouac found an influence.

>        also - unfortunatley i think that b/c kerouac wrote abt himslef

>(or was at least was inspired by his own life) his books and his life are

>too often mixed. we should keep in mind burroughs reference to kerouac

>being an "author" above all else - kerouac wrote fiction! (and while much

>of the events are inspired by his own life and such - he is strecthing and

>confusing and manipulating the facts to create the story the way he wajts

>to tell - for instance wsb's "fortune" and "allowance" that kerouac makes

>reference to. i think thatwsb clearly makes it evident that there was no

>fortune in "whatever happened to kerouac?"...)

>yrs

>derek

>I thought it was about what he "read" and not what he "heard."

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:47:54 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      my first pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

 This is my first posted pome, so go easy on me please!

 

puddle pome

 

this puddle on the floor--

where does it come from?

where does it go?

why is the sky blue?

WHY is the sky blue?

why does fate find me

stuck in the middle stall

on a Meaningless monday?

Ginsberg s knocking at the door;

he ll find the source.

He IS the source;

from him and old Jack Kerouac

all the good things flow.

now Cassady s climbing through the drain pipes

and dear Peter s face is in the mirror

and I m stuck in the middle stall,

a pawn of fate.

if I lean back far enough,

my feet won t touch the floor,

my feet can t touch the floor,

 cause maybe I don t want to step in it,

maybe I don t want to get involved.

the water s seeping through the cracks--

where does it come from?

where does it go?

where do we go

after we drain away?

I m already involved

I m seeping through the cracks--

Will the Ghost of Ginsberg get to me in time?

 

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:02:35 -0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         DuarteMoniz <DuarteMoniz@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>

Subject:      Allen in Cornershop cd

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Just read in the newspaper about the recent release of  "When I was Born

for the 7th Time" CD by a english group named Cornershop. It has Allen

Ginsberg declaiming one of his poems with background of live sounds of

ambiance in a Punjab market, as is stated in the interview with band

members:

...

Question: One of the most remarkable tracks of this CD uses the voice of

beat poet Allen Ginsberg, recently deceased. How come that collaboration

to happen ?

Answer: We were touring the US during one year and a half. And what we

did was to end all the concerts with one tape of a very long poem

declaimed by Ginsberg, enregisted live  in the fifties. Allen khew about

this, heard our previous CD and was interested in working with us. Then

in one occasion we went to New York and  made arrangements to meet, and

he talked to us about a poem he had written thinking in Bob Dylan and as

it was conceived as a rock song. We tape him reciting that poem, in the

kitchen of his apartment.

 

Question: Then you attached that take with music that seems recorded in

a asian market. What is the connection ?

Answer: Yes, a tape that Tjinder did when he was in Punjab last years

summer.Then we decide to attach those two tapes, because Ginsberg always

had a strong attraction to Asia and his sympathies for oriental

philosophies are well known.

 

...

 

Duarte

 

Portugal

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:50:36 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

  I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who thinks Vonnegut is

one of the Great American Writers of our time.  Aside from the Beats

and possibly Hemingway, he's the only great writer 20th Century

America has ever had.  It's so tragic that he claims he's written his

last book!

              Maggie G.

 

 

---Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM> wrote:

> 

> Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> > I think the great

> > American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize

the

> > American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

> > believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America

lives

> > with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't

matter

> > whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

> > realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the

above

> > situation.

> 

> Given this context, I nominate Vonnegut's "God Bless You, Mr.

Rosewater."

> 

> Jym

> 

 

__________________________________________________________________

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=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:13:14 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      method and meaning

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hello all.

in the salinger list someone mentioned that one of their old english

professors said "If you aren't going to do something interesting with

words, you had better have a damn good plot." which i think is true,

but perhaps it depends on the person for which is easiest to do. then

again, all the really great stuff does both. and method is a lot more

important than content. if you say something right, you could give it

a double meaning, like the pun about steinback and the grape of wrath

someone recently posted. parables also do this, but they use a simple

style to relate the reader's attention back to the content.

although i bet a lot of people not on the beat-l would disagree with

you, the type who would not want to see that new movie boogie nights

because of the subject dealing with the 70's porn industry.

 

Randall

 

>      well, as far as my motives for thinking about this topic, i always

> look at method before content.  I've reiterated the saying before and

> i'll push it on you all again, it's not what you write, but how you

> write it.  if anyone disagrees i'd like to hear their viewpoint.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:11:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: method and meaning

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>> 

>Plot is not all that matters. Faulkner told the whole plot of the novel,

Absalom, Absalom by the end of the first chapter. What he did was fashion

each chapter after the first by restating the various "truths" of each

character about what happened with Sutpen. Shreve wants to know from Quentin

Compson what the 'South" was like...each character has a different take on

this but it is the structuring of the novel that makes it what it is and not

the plot. Plot is a vehicle for expression, not necessarily linear or

non-linear so much as it gives the writer a place to hang his hat.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:12:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

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>well, i like the idea, but why a stream?  wouldnt an ocean be a

>better metaphor?  rather than linear, it is infested with cross-

>currents, but all contained somehow in this great expanse...

>just a thought.

 

     definitely... i'm a victim of writing e-mail on the fly, without

thinking about what i write before i write it... ocean is definitely

better.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:31:46 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American No

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> >well, i like the idea, but why a stream?  wouldnt an ocean be a

> >better metaphor?  rather than linear, it is infested with cross-

> >currents, but all contained somehow in this great expanse...

> >just a thought.

> 

>      definitely... i'm a victim of writing e-mail on the fly, without

> thinking about what i write before i write it... ocean is definitely

> better.

> 

i believe kerouac called his stlye "stream of conscious" (sp?).

keroauc is more "stream" than "ocean", but i definetly  agree that

his stuff is moving <grin>

 

Randall

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:46:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

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>Lastly, if you suggest we shouldn't be so thin skinned about being

>messed

>around with, than how come you object when someone expresses honestly

>felt

>reactions, that you don't approve of?

>Think a little bit more and read before you leap into criticizing

>others,

>and also look at yourself and take your own counsel, please.

 

      i wrote a long response to this, but i've erased it.  it's not

worth posting cause it won't do any good.  last time i apologized for

something i continued to be cold shouldered.  you misunderstood my

intentions, but i stand by my statement.  i never thought when i joined

a beat list that the core of its members would be fascists.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:53:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

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>Since you seem to take upon yoursel editorial prerogatives to tell us

>what

>we should or should not submit don't you think you should give us some

>guidelines aso to what amounts to a little cajoling?

 

    eh?  are the messages you're reading different from the ones i'm

sending?  hmm.. wonder if i was making an attempt to preserve the

peace, maybe i actually felt compassion for thi list and didn't want to

see it devolve again... nah, i must be an asshole, after all, you don't

even know me, why give me the benefit of the doubt?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:00:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

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>But read Maher's piece.  It clearly goes

>way beyond the borders of good taste, and certainly of any civility

>toward fellow listmemembers.

 

     well, then, for what it's worth, which was nothing last time i

made an apology, i am sorry that i made an uninformed observation.  i

guess that i gave paul the benefit of the doubt and assumed an

overreaction.  i am concerned at how quickly i get jumped on when i say

something imperfect, i am human, i am proned to ego and plain

stupidity, please allow me my tragic flaws.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:18:54 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Allen in Cornershop cd

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Thanks for the quotes from the interview about the song they did with

Allen.,

 

Cornershop is definitly cool.

 

They are playing at "Slims" in SF tonight in case anyone is close.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:15:09 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: That Fascist Leon?

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Tyson,

 

The notion that Leon Tabory is a fascist is probably the most ludicrous

thing I have ever read.  Leon is probably one of the least fascistic

folks I know.

 

I thought earlier you claimed to to have read Maher's post.  If that is

true how can you defend what you haven't read?

 

Paul's post was agressively rude and crude--essentially shaking his dick

in the faces of the ladies who had posted poems.  I defend his right to

be an ass, but I would still have to call a spade a spade.

 

Some people have questioned the posting of poems to the list.  Ron

Whitehead's frenetic posting of his own stuff was resented by some.

I've seen some wonderful things posted to this list and some things that

were frankly pretty forgettable--but that doesn't mean you have the

right to be grossly insulting.  What's wrong with a little civility

here--is that facism?  Your mother telling you to not say anything if

you couldn't say something nice was facism?  Give  me a break.

 

James Stauffer

 

Tyson Ouellette wrote:

>       i wrote a long response to this, but i've erased it.  it's not

> worth posting cause it won't do any good.  last time i apologized for

> something i continued to be cold shouldered.  you misunderstood my

> intentions, but i stand by my statement.  i never thought when i joined

> a beat list that the core of its members would be fascists.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:27:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: That Fascist Leon?

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <3467CDBD.A98@pacbell.net>

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I happen to think that this is an appropiate place to post poetry...And,I

have to agree with James when he defends Leon. Leon is one of the nicest

guys Ive met on this list...

 

 

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Tyson,

> 

> The notion that Leon Tabory is a fascist is probably the most ludicrous

> thing I have ever read.  Leon is probably one of the least fascistic

> folks I know.

> 

> I thought earlier you claimed to to have read Maher's post.  If that is

> true how can you defend what you haven't read?

> 

> Paul's post was agressively rude and crude--essentially shaking his dick

> in the faces of the ladies who had posted poems.  I defend his right to

> be an ass, but I would still have to call a spade a spade.

> 

> Some people have questioned the posting of poems to the list.  Ron

> Whitehead's frenetic posting of his own stuff was resented by some.

> I've seen some wonderful things posted to this list and some things that

> were frankly pretty forgettable--but that doesn't mean you have the

> right to be grossly insulting.  What's wrong with a little civility

> here--is that facism?  Your mother telling you to not say anything if

> you couldn't say something nice was facism?  Give  me a break.

> 

> James Stauffer

> 

> Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> >       i wrote a long response to this, but i've erased it.  it's not

> > worth posting cause it won't do any good.  last time i apologized for

> > something i continued to be cold shouldered.  you misunderstood my

> > intentions, but i stand by my statement.  i never thought when i joined

> > a beat list that the core of its members would be fascists.

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:31:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      I don't know about great

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I don't know about "great" but there are some American Novels that

profoundly shaped my way of looking at reality.  Some aren't really

novels even.  But, from the time I was about 16 to 24 or so, those

were, in a general order of discovery:

 

The Good Earth

Catch 22

Slaughterhouse 5

Moby Dick

Trout Fishing in America

A Confederate General in Big Sur (?)

Thomas Wolfe's work

Bob Dylan  (I saw it in a different light after reading Wolfe)

Jack Kerouac

V

The Crying of Lot 49

Phillip Dick's Science Fiction work

T S Eliot

Ginsberg

Studs Turkle (sp?)

The Last Tycoon (Fitzgerald's unfinished novel)

Michener

 

I think I stuck to American writers there, but maybe not.

 

Outside of America, in order as I recall:

 

Dickens

Shakespear

The Kazamarov Brothers (sp)

Steppenwolf

I, Claudius

The White Goddess

King Jesus

Tom Jones (came to it rather late for some reason)

 

I think that at various times I have imagined the GAN, but I am not

sure that a writer can capture the spirit of America in one book.  If

there is one, I think it would be Of Time and the River by Wolfe.  It

is a hard read, but it captures the spirit best of anything that I

have read.  My second choice would be Dharma Bums, although, I think

The Last Tycoon is a masterpiece that did not receive its just due.

 

Off the wall, into this email and on to you.

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:32:15 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Ron Whitehead (was Re: That Fascist Leon?

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Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> 

> I happen to think that this is an appropiate place to post poetry...And,I

> have to agree with James when he defends Leon. Leon is one of the nicest

> guys Ive met on this list...

> 

> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> > Tyson,

> >

> > The notion that Leon Tabory is a fascist is probably the most ludicrous

> > thing I have ever read.  Leon is probably one of the least fascistic

> > folks I know.

> >

> > I thought earlier you claimed to to have read Maher's post.  If that is

> > true how can you defend what you haven't read?

> >

> > Paul's post was agressively rude and crude--essentially shaking his dick

> > in the faces of the ladies who had posted poems.  I defend his right to

> > be an ass, but I would still have to call a spade a spade.

> >

> > Some people have questioned the posting of poems to the list.  Ron

> > Whitehead's frenetic posting of his own stuff was resented by some.

> > I've seen some wonderful things posted to this list and some things that

> > were frankly pretty forgettable--but that doesn't mean you have the

> > right to be grossly insulting.  What's wrong with a little civility

> > here--is that facism?  Your mother telling you to not say anything if

> > you couldn't say something nice was facism?  Give  me a break.

> >

> > James Stauffer

> >

> > Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> > >       i wrote a long response to this, but i've erased it.  it's not

> > > worth posting cause it won't do any good.  last time i apologized for

> > > something i continued to be cold shouldered.  you misunderstood my

> > > intentions, but i stand by my statement.  i never thought when i joined

> > > a beat list that the core of its members would be fascists.

> >

> 

> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> Sure-JK

 

I've corresponded some with RW recently.  I sent him my little ditty

"Gang of One" that i'd posted on the Beat-L.  Not having been around

when the RW history happened I had no real idea of the fact that folks

had reacted against his writing.  I'm certainly glad that the atmosphere

has changed with regards to such matters.  So who is gonna invite Ron

back?

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:38:23 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: I don't know about great

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> I don't know about "great" but there are some American Novels that

> profoundly shaped my way of looking at reality.  Some aren't really

> novels even.

> 

> I think I stuck to American writers there, but maybe not.

> 

> Outside of America, in order as I recall:

> 

> Steppenwolf

 

I was thinking earlier today that HH's "Journey to the East" might be

the great american novel.  The whole notion of whether the great novel

should be attempted -- couched in the notion of history of the

journeyers by HH -- may be a central idea that connnects many many of

the various strings attached to this fascinating (for me) thread.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:52:55 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Ron Whitehead

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David,

 

Not me!  Others have tried, I think.

 

As for me the thought of having two such tempremental egos as Ron

Whitehad and Gerry Nicosia on the same list is a little terrifying.  We

could have wheels within wheels of paranoia.

 

And here I go violating my own adage about not saying anything if you

couldn't say something nice.

 

J. Stauffer

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

  So who is gonna invite Ron

> back?

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:15:08 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Untitled Nightthoughts

 

this is truly wonderful.  i especially liked ii.  thank you for posting it.

got any more?

 

ciao,  sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of First_Name Last_Name

Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 8:06 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Untitled Nightthoughts

 

untitled

 

        i

in the sludge waste back bathroom of the golden arches

such is thus i find myself

        (begrudgingly)

 

let us cut to the middle;

                                                .right the than important more

no is left the

after fulfilling my(-oh-my) obligatory daily rhythms

 and backing out, startled, from the stall, backwards, appalled

  about automatic motion-sensory flush mechanisms

        i lurch for the sink.

(motion sensored as well)

        to moisten the pores of my face.

 

and upon doing so:

 

                ii

the sickly lightbulbs flickered

three   in   sight   -   one by row , three   by   column

        the skythe      bloodthe        wedding virgin

  in lieu of a reflecting myself

                (since by now i am a gazing mute)

there is only a me - inherently dependent

      upon the siamesetriptych

 

my pale skin between self       u n r a v e l s reflection

fusingwiththe

        d

          y

            i

              n

                g lights l o o s e l y suspended before the mirrorrorrim

at this other i am many shades

   ove  separate   rla  distinct           pp   but    ing

 

                        iii

in the space between

the land of the prideful uroboros

is red

plasma-red with a penchant for

repetition reppitetion rhepuhtishun

 

   in the soul of the serpent between -

   gluttony mistaken for passion

   and in befuddled innocence - absent contrition

 

in the space between

the sky is an obtrusive blue

forgetful of the notion of just, just being

and the larger airplanes dominate

while the smaller wrestle beneath the shadow

 

   in the body of the serpent

   my fathers lack the foresight required to slither

   so, in shame(noshame) effect,

   construct feet, arms and comfortable penny loafers

 

in the keystone of the acid lightbath -

dishwater blinding bright

rests the virgin's thighs from whence

conceptualizing and awareness bounce forth

unable to bungee back

 

   the palette of the serpent

   composed of congruent colors by nature

   though, when conjoined by imperfect joints

   - ugly mixture imported meanings indiscriminate fate -

 

                                iv

i, in opposition to partake of this dying color scheme,

                                        backwards take a step with kouros

symmetry

        and retrieve my slingshot

   a series of

pppppprrrrrroooooooojjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeccccccctttttttttiiiiiiiiiillllllllllleeee

eeessssssssss

and howls rage forth

   purging the essence of mars

   cleansing the sky of its self-appointed interpreters

   shattering the great white mist permeating the facade of grandeur

 

                                        v

in the dark i can see nothing

there is fear; i falter in my confidence

all i have given myself is

 

autonomous

 

life - a concept i wasn't willing for yet -

 

the reflection is gone

the lightbulbs are gone, but the darkness

-their reflections pure and true- remain

 

i do not move.

i inhale the principles of this uncharted terrain.

this glee-wary uncertainty .

 

11-09-97

bhr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:32:05 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: interest from the illiterate re:the GAN

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> 

> Subject:

>         Re: Interest from the Illiterate Re: The Great American Novel

>   Date:

>         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:21:52 -0500

>   From:

>         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

> 

> 

> > I've consistently

> >said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

> >something less or more than a novel?  I

> 

>      regarding this segmenting of literature into cubby holes.  I'm

> looking forward to what I hope will happen as a natural progressio in

> writing, and what I try to do in my own writing, that is the breakdown

> of barriers of prose, poetry, music, etc.  so that we meld poetry with

> prose more fluidly than ever.  jack and the other beatrs obviously had

> this notion and worked at it, it's not a new discovery by any means,

> but has much farther to go.  what i think is happening is a

> post-post-mdernist stream of consciousness trend, but one that defies

> all accepted means of writing.  I guarantee you that it will  be

> scoffed at, that people will deem it confusing and unintelligible, but

> isn't that always the way? haven't we seen that before?  we might call

> it something like stream of intuition.

 

 

 

Perhaps one day all of us may become known as the "Intuitionists."

We'll be in the history books, the english books and be required reading

for college freshman english courses.  We'll have our own section in the

syllabus!  Dream dream dream....

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:52:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ron Whitehead (was Re: That Fascist Leon?

In-Reply-To:  <3467D1BF.44E3@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> has changed with regards to such matters.  So who is gonna invite Ron

> back?

 

I'd be the first to if for the fact that he'd probably get the same

reception he was getting when he left.  We tend to get a little to picky

and high schooly around here.  Personal differences are one thing, but

they should be put aside when they interfere with the true purpose of this

list.  We are scholars first.  The Beats and the study of them and their

work are the heart of this list.  Community problems and interpersonal

difficulties should come second, but as we've seen that's not always the

case.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:21:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ron Whitehead (was Re: That Fascist Leon?

 

I can't believe after not having weighed in for quite a while on any topic

I'm about to tell everyone I thought Paul's poem, while crude, was cleverly

done.  You gotta admit there was some real imagery there!  And probably if it

were my face he was shakin' his dick in front of I wouldn't be feeling so

generous.

 

But let's face it... suppose it was somebody else that posted that poem

instead of Paul?  Would we as a group have been so quick to jump on that

person?  Is Paul an easy target regarding that post simply because so many of

us have seen him as such an ass on other issues (I can't bring myself to say

which one)!  If someone else, maybe even anyone else, had posted that would

we still even be talking about it?

 

Everything we say bleeds over into everything else.  One of the reasons I got

tired of the Whitehead/Anstee War was simply because I lost so much respect

for both those guys I found myself discounting everything they said even it

it was valid.

 

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:52:02 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      The intuitionists

Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net

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>Perhaps one day all of us may become known as the "Intuitionists."

>We'll be in the history books, the english books and be required reading

>for college freshman english courses.  We'll have our own section in the

>syllabus!  Dream dream dream....

 

>cathy

 

That's a good intuition

 

Harold Rhenisch

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:08:54 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      More of the Dharma...this is BEAT-L, after all!

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Jack Kerouac on classic 'structured' poetry:

 

        "Our savants all have bad taste.---Imagine Robt.Frost being better than

Thoreau, because of a few verse tricks.---I can take out a ruler and

measure too. I can even tell you how high a tree is by use of

geometry.---This makes me Archimedes? Lines make a poem?---I've seen

true poems in the middle of formless fortunate explanations, heard them

in the street & admired & forget them right there. Robert me No

Frost---Penn Warren me no more---" (Some Of The Dharma, p.120)

 

This was written in early fall 1954, right when Allen Ginsberg was

starting to follow Jack's example, to avoid the middle of the road and

head for the ditch (sorry, that's a Neil Young quote!).

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:25:06 -0600

Reply-To:     Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great Grape American European Novel Project

In-Reply-To:  <B08CBAEF-3CC75@207.34.191.132>

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On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

 

> "American"? For instance, Diane Carter suggested that the "Great American

> Novel" should portray the American spirit and the American dream. Why?

> Could there not be a more vital story? America is more than one story,

> isn't it? Well, Hollywood may not think so, but that should put it into

> perspective quickly.

 

This reminds me of what Gore Vidal said of Paul Bowles:

"If [Bowles] is so good, why is he so little known? Great American writers

are supposed not only to live in the greatest country in the world (the

Unites States, for those who came in late), but to write about that

greatest of all human themes: THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE. From the beginning

of the Republic, this crude America First-ism has flourished. As a result,

there is a strong tendency to misrepresent or under-value out three finest

novelists: Henry James (who lived in England), Edith Wharton (who lived in

France), Vladimir Nabokov (who lived in Switzerland, and who wasn't much

of an American anyway despite an unnatural passion for our motels)....

Paul Bowles had lived most of his life in Morocco. He seldom writes about

the United States...."

 

So what do we want? A great novel by an American, or a great novel about

that "greatest of all human themes" no matter who it may be written by?

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:11:24 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: I don't know about great

In-Reply-To:  <3467D199.EC12EB3A@scsn.net>

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On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> I think that at various times I have imagined the GAN, but I am not

> sure that a writer can capture the spirit of America in one book.  If

> there is one, I think it would be Of Time and the River by Wolfe.  It

> is a hard read, but it captures the spirit best of anything that I

> have read.

 

I read Of Time and the River this summer....didn't at all find it a hard

read. At 900+ pages, I thought it would take quite awhile to get thru, but

the pages just flew by! It does "capture the spirit" in an energetic and

yet densely-described way. In any case, it's must-reading as background to

Kerouac; its influence on JK is palpable. For example, the first chapter

of part 3, the litany on Coming Home in October. "October had come again,

and that year it was sharp and soon...."

 

And I'll mention again a contemporary writer whom I think is pretty great:

Cormac McCarthy. Has no one heard of this guy but me?! His 1985 book

_Blood Meridian_ is probably the only novel I've ever read that I found

truly disturbing.

And his power of description is as luminous as anything I've read. Here's

a party of horsemen moving across a desert:

"They rode on. The white noon saw them through the waste like a ghost

army, so pale they were with dust, like shades of figures erased upon a

board....They moved on and the iron of the wagon-tires grew polished

bright as chrome in the pumice....They took to riding by night, silent

jornadas save for the trundling of the wagons and the wheeze of the

animals. Under the moonlight a strange party of elders with the white dust

thick on their moustaches and eyebrows. They moved on and the stars

jostled and arced across the firmament and died beyond the inkblack

mountians....The sand lay blue in the moonlight and the iron tires rolled

among the shapes of the riders in gleaming hoops that veered and wheeled

woundedly and vaguely navigational like slender astrolabes and the

polished shoes of the horses kept hasping up like a myriad of eyes winking

across the desert floor. They watched storms out there so distant they

could not be heard, the silent lightning flaring sheetwise and the thin

black spine of the mountain chain fluttering and sucked away again in the

dark. They saw wild horses racing on the plain, pounding their shadows

down the night and leaving in the moonlight a vaporous dust like the

palest stain of their passing."

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:46:16 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      to tyson

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tyson, is there a way that we can help you get out of the corner you seem

to have painted yrself in, and return to the other subjects on the list? i

am sorry for your plight at this time. mr maher and i have taken the

mudslinging off list to back channel and now you are left out here,

feeling the stings of arrows. you are a valuable member of the list, even

though you feel under attack right now.

i am very sorry that you misread my post, (i think that's what happend)

in friendship if this is possible,

mc(not a fascist)

 

Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >Lastly, if you suggest we shouldn't be so thin skinned about being

> >messed

> >around with, than how come you object when someone expresses honestly

> >felt

> >reactions, that you don't approve of?

> >Think a little bit more and read before you leap into criticizing

> >others,

> >and also look at yourself and take your own counsel, please.

> 

>       i wrote a long response to this, but i've erased it.  it's not

> worth posting cause it won't do any good.  last time i apologized for

> something i continued to be cold shouldered.  you misunderstood my

> intentions, but i stand by my statement.  i never thought when i joined

> a beat list that the core of its members would be fascists.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:49:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Untitled Nightthoughts

 

In a message dated 97-11-11 01:44:32 EST, you write:

 

<< this is truly wonderful.  i especially liked ii.  thank you for posting

it.

 got any more?

 

thank you......i have more, but most of it is stuff i wrote during high

school to alleviate boredom.......but i suppose i would like to have an

opinion on it or so....when i have more time i will post some more later...

 

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:08:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <msg1199130.thr-472e8572.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-version: 1.0

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On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Ouellette, gentil Ouellette wrote:

 

>      well, as far as my motives for thinking about this topic, i always

> look at method before content.  I've reiterated the saying before and

> i'll push it on you all again, it's not what you write, but how you

> write it.  if anyone disagrees i'd like to hear their viewpoint.

 

I've said before, I think that probably what's most significant about

Kerouac's work is its rhythm and tempo (you always see that Ginsberg

quote, "spontaneous bop prosody")....it's so musical that it almost

doesn't matter *what* he's actually saying. One of the very few prose

writers of recent times whose work repays a study of prosody.

 

Reading JK has led me to begin paying more attention to things like

rhythm, tempo--rhetorical force generally--than I had been. I sometimes

hear people say about some popular song how profound it is, but after

listening to it all I can say is "No it isn't." And as someone on this

list said recently about Dylan, the songs sound great but on the page they

are rarely great poetry. So why do things like this sound so much more

profound when set to music--i.e., to a certain rhythm and tempo? Is this

gain in profundity just an illusion, or does it *really* add another

meaningful dimension? I'm beginning to think that it does really add

something important, that is not reducible to simple semantic meaning.

 

Too, I used to sneer at religious fundamentalists for clinging to the King

James translation of the bible. But now it seems to me that their position

(on this particular issue) is not totally without foundation: the King

James just *sounds* more powerful than the more modern versions, it

*sounds* like the Word of God. I have been told by people who know that,

when read in Hebrew, the Old Testament does have this powerful rhetorical

quality to it. Why is it, exactly, that "Yea though I walk through the

valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for Thou art with me"

sound so much better than "Even though I walk thru the valley of the

shadow of death, I will not fear evil, because You are with me"? After

all, they *mean* the same thing, don't they?

 

Ditto for the Koran. After reading it in English, I am unable to see why

anyone should ever have been inspired by this book. But I am told that

when read in Arabic, it's some of the most powerful poetry there is....

 

And jokes: how is that someone (e.g., me) can tell a joke and it falls

completely flat, yet someone else can tell it, using the *exact same*

words, and get a big laugh? Timing.... And fianlly back to music. Music

is *nothing but* rhythm and tempo (and melody, sometimes). It doesn't

need words at all to sound profound or exciting.

 

So for texts,

it's all a matter of how much relative weight one wishes to give to

rhetorical force on the one hand, and semantic meaning on the other, in

the total meaning of a work. Back to JK: in OTR, did any of the characters

really *do* anything all that special? A little hitchiking, a few odd

jobs, a few parties, some fast driving, a fast-talking friend who

might appear merely irritating--nothing that hadn't been done

plenty of times before. Certainly nothing that seems capable of inspiring

an entire generation to jump up and hit the road. Nevertheless, it did

inspire. How? It seems to me that almost all the energy and drive of

OTR comes from the rhythm and tempo of the prose. Its infectious

excitement come mainly from the *way* the story is told, not from what

they actually *did* in the book.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:56:15 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Techniques (was Re: method and meaning

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Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> 

> >>

> >Plot is not all that matters. Faulkner told the whole plot of the novel,

> Absalom, Absalom by the end of the first chapter. What he did was fashion

> each chapter after the first by restating the various "truths" of each

> character about what happened with Sutpen. Shreve wants to know from Quentin

> Compson what the 'South" was like...each character has a different take on

> this but it is the structuring of the novel that makes it what it is and not

> the plot. Plot is a vehicle for expression, not necessarily linear or

> non-linear so much as it gives the writer a place to hang his hat.

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

Here, again, I'm shackled a bit from having absolutely no background in

literature per se.  But the suggestion here and several of the other

suggestions elsewhere lead me to believe that (consistent with my

melting pot theme -- i don't know if that post got out i can't find my

copy at any rate) is that a weaving of various notions of method and

various accepted and less than accepted forms of (for lack of a better

word) "style" seem important to the notions of where the novel is or

might be moving.  It seems that Kerouac tried this and viewed from the

perspective of the larger Legend perhaps had some success (sufficient

that i've sent notes to my family that it's JK Xmas for me and all i

want is Kerouac Xmas presents).  I think that WSB may become the most

noted of the Beat novelists in time.  It seems important -- from my

point of view -- that the focus of his writings shift somewhat from the

fascination with Naked Lunch (which is definitely fascinating) to more

energy spent on the later writings -- including the preface to Queer --

the later trilogy, My Education, and other less acclaimed works.

Sometimes it seems to me that the fascination with method in Naked Lunch

(and this has been true for me I know) is so involved in notions of

method that the rest is easily forgotten.  I recall that my first

reaction to WSB's writings (having heard the LP of Breakthrough in the

Grey Room) was to randomly underline in his books and just read the

cut-ups.  This limitation of my view of his notions of technique led me

to miss so much in my first run through his works.  As for the earlier

writings, it seems to me that the movements he takes with language are

important -- and are far more than just cut-ups.  The reactions perhaps

ARE similar to what Diane suggested for Finnegan's Wake.

Incomprehensible writings.  And perhaps it will take something like

Joseph Campbell and co.'s Skeleton Key to Naked Lunch and cousins for

these works to be comprehended sufficiently to be ultimately appreciated

in terms of such matters as "cannonization".

        Now my mind wanders some more back to the questions of plot in Paul's

post and methods in general and connecting this all to the heart of the

Beat Generation listserve.  In terms of method, of writing techniques,

my hunch is that the methods have been discussed in some respects

individually, but i was wondering about the possibility of accumulating

thoughts on the techniques of the various Beat Writers -- beginning with

the core and moving on to the broader Rinaldoan list to try and get a

sense of the depth and complexity of Beat Method.  Such a notion would

probably be best served by attempting in the beginning to be as

distinguishing as possible between various Beat styles -- even from

alterations in style from one book to another by the same Beat writer --

and then after the breadth is seen, perhaps the possibilites of finding

the connections in Beat technique may be more easily accessible -- a

simple forest and trees notion i suppose.

 

Where does one start?  Perhaps with the beginnings of Queer as it has

been mentioned several times of late.

 

Any takers?

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:58:01 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The highway's calling....

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Marlene Giraud wrote:

> 

> Dear friends,

> well, i'm off this weekend and i'm thrilled about it. just thought i'd let

> the list know how happy i am to be hitting the pavement in just a few hours.

> my sister and i are driving up to pensacola for the weekend. it should be a

> real good time. just wanted to let you all know in case anyone would need me.

> BTW, Marie, the money's in the mail, and Gerry, the t-shirts arrived safe and

> sound. I love them! Okay, have a wondeful weekend kiddos. Take it easy,

> ~~Marlene

 

Any good road stories?

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:41:19 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

Can't find your original post, Paul, (probably on my work computer) regarding

JK's being influenced by his reading "list", but wanted to ask if you knew of

any books that address which books/authors JK was reading right before  (and

during) the writing of any particular book.  this would be a fascinating and

illuminating study.  anyone on the list ever done any such research?

 

ciao,  sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:04:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      December Cover of the Month now posted!

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Thanks to Rinaldo Rasa for his scan of On the Road from Italy to be found at:

 

   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

 

                    Thanks! Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:10:47 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      finished draft: in somnia

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i know that there are differing opinions about posting poetry to the

list, but since i have brought you all along through the valley of

revision, i thought i'd take you to the final destination:

(mailer won't center, best read centered on page)

 

  Insominiac Quartet

 

I

DAY FOUR: In Somnia

 

       for the fourth day

       in the fourth year

       up here in north country

    each autumn

       i dwell in the land of

       in Somnia.

 

       in Somnia,

       the rules change:

       clocks run backwards

       as

       fast as ahead

       and collide,

       like two perfectly balanced arrows

       two exquistely aimed arrorws

       meeting in mid flight -

 

    time

       collapses.

 

       i=92ve tried

       doctors pills,

          herbal remedies,

       warm milk!

       relaxation, meditation

       chants!

       (and furtive readings from the =91self help=92

       corner of local bookstore )

 

            nothing changes.

       except, 96 hours into

       black night slowly

       inching its way to dawn,

       i look out my window

       and

       see the first snow fall

       of autumn.

 

   i watch the snow fall

and muse upon my hepatitis C,

a life line without guarrentee,

       a reminder of mortality.

 

       i

       would like to think

 the gods are smiling on me,

       giving me more time

       to store up against an early death;

       so charged,

       writing always becomes electric,

       a force of its own :

       vowels

       consonants

       metaphors

       voices

    ring in my head,

 

       so i spend time with poets

       who would rather

       stay dead:

 

       Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

       (i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow your path),

 

      or that of ti Jean,

       Kerouac :

       it=92s a critical mass:

       one can drown in water, or in wine,

       nothing sublime about that.

 

       is it an affliction,

       these extra hours,

       dark, quiet, soft snow falling

 

       or gift?

       (these extra hours

       dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

 

       i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

       hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

 

       i=92m still awake

       when daybreak changes snow to rain

       snow washed away

       in to the rain

 

       i=92m still awake

 

       i=92m still awake

 

       i=92m still awake

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~

II

FLASHBACK: 1993

 

      lately i just keep waking

        lately i just keep waking alone

       in the black of night

       i breathe shallow i wear earphones

       not to wake you

 

not to wake you

       i breathe shallowly

       3 am 4 am

       mind wanders and stumbles

        stuck in the valley of consciousness

       black timelessness,

        i don=92t

       think of tomorrow, rather

       merge with the blackness

       listen to the burning

       fire

       in my ears,  break free      --the passions bursts! in my ears,

       and turning,

       turn up the volume on the

       sobbing stereo wailing

       i make my choice

       light the candle

       shed my

       clothes

       twirl on the balls of my

       feet and let

       my hips find their own rhythm

       scarf in hand,

      flung swirls, settles

       the lamp shadows cast,

       i dance to my anima,

       shadow cast

        i ride the fiddles

       in the midst of hurricane

       a halcyon dance.

 

       go away if it bothers you, in fact

       please go away.

       its the blackness you see

       the blackness and me

      everybody nobody knows about me

       nobody everybody

       knows about me

       the song

       the vigil

the darkness in me

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

III

DAY FIVE:  dance

 

    in camplight

    all others ringed round the fire asleep

    i steal the ceiling of stars, sleepless,

cold, and  needing a  blanket around my shoulders.

 

 i sit and bend towards fire

   sweat raises on shoulders

   firelight warmth

    sudden gust of cold, then icy fire:

    he appears

    my wolf, my angst,

my anima, lover--

 

    and the firelight

    turns to music

    sweat raises to shoulders

    and muscles obey

 

    running electric alive currents!

    (to all casual eyes

    i dance alone in the desert)

 

    oh please,

    oh please,

   - hear me hear out my story-

    because you were in it-

you,

    alive!

you,

 alive!

 

    who are you?

     adversary?

     brother?

    killer?

    life giver?

 

who?

 

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

NIGHT SEVEN:  in dreamless nights

 

    in dreams, i remember flying over the old spartan homelands

   -the freedom

    -the altitiude

    -my shadow cast on the hillscapes-

feathers delineated in shadow shapes

     windspread wide and proud.

 

    i no longer dream of flying,

    i no longer dream at all.

 

    (I hail from the country of In Somnia

    I=92m only here to gather some ingredients:

    bane of darkness

    wort of light

    bones of a robin)

 

    [the condescending smile of an eye

     as i beg for help,

    condescending incomprehending eye]

 

    so rejected,

    i choose to stop such public presentations

    i choose to live here in my palace,

   peopled by imagination.

    who is to say which is which?

 corporeal or ethereal?

 

      laid awake for so many of my days

 the return to the land of  sleep

and the company of sleepers

an impossiblity

 

i pray for my dreamweaver

to come

where i lie, invisible to the naked i

still and quiet in the darkness of the darkest night of all,

 

to see you coming in the darkness, dreamweaver.

 

    i see you pick up this paper, blessed by tears and torn

    by desperations,

    i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh yes it does, so pliable,

    feel me,

    i=92m in your pocket

    i=92m here;

    you awaken....

 

  oct. 24-30, 1997

revised 11/11/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:16:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Jack's reading list - John Hasbrouck?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Sherri,

 

        John Hasbrouck, a Beat lister from Chicago and one of our resident

blues guitarists, has been long at work dooing a chronological read of all

extant Beat material - letterss, texts, etc. - and may be able to point us

to something like you're looking for.  John?

 

        Antoine

 

                ****************

 

from Sherri:

 

>Can't find your original post, Paul, (probably on my work computer) regarding

>JK's being influenced by his reading "list", but wanted to ask if you knew of

>any books that address which books/authors JK was reading right before  (and

>during) the writing of any particular book.  this would be a fascinating and

>illuminating study.  anyone on the list ever done any such research?

> 

>ciao,  sherri

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:25:26 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971110235522.0069309c@pop.pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> >I thought it was about what he "read" and not what he "heard."

paul -

yes it was. BUT i think that an author like kerouac, an author who put so

much stock in rhythm and sound of words who was so influenced by the

musical in text (for instance the improv of his breatpocket notebook

poems, riffing in a certain space) means that kerouac cannot solely be

examined in terms of written "text" & not only that but i sought to expand

the definition of "text" here on beat-L by introducing the idea of text as

being anything that is recieved.

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:30:27 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack's reading list - John Hasbrouck?

 

thanks Antoine.  how bout it John?

 

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Antoine Maloney

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:16 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Jack's reading list - John Hasbrouck?

 

Sherri,

 

        John Hasbrouck, a Beat lister from Chicago and one of our resident

blues guitarists, has been long at work dooing a chronological read of all

extant Beat material - letterss, texts, etc. - and may be able to point us

to something like you're looking for.  John?

 

        Antoine

 

                ****************

 

from Sherri:

 

>Can't find your original post, Paul, (probably on my work computer) regarding

>JK's being influenced by his reading "list", but wanted to ask if you knew of

>any books that address which books/authors JK was reading right before  (and

>during) the writing of any particular book.  this would be a fascinating and

>illuminating study.  anyone on the list ever done any such research?

> 

>ciao,  sherri

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:53:11 +0000

Reply-To:     jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack's reading list - John Hasbrouck?

Comments: To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@odyssee.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Dear Sherri, Antoine, et. al.,

 

Good question! Doing a study of an author's reading list is a very cool

idea. I glanced at a full-length, scholarly book on Thoreau's reading,

though I didn't have the gumption to pursue it. I know of no better

readily available source for learning what Kerouac was reading at

specific points in his life than Nicosia's MEMORY BABE.

 

My opinion is that Kerouac was very suggestible and that his writing was

easily influenced by his reading. He tended to be imitative of what he

was reading. I believe that he developed his own voice very gradually,

and became fully mature in this regard perhaps only very late in his

career - when he was, sadly, tired and loaded.

 

It's an accepted critical notion that THE TOWN AND THE CITY was

imitative of Thomas Wolfe. (Reread the second sentence in that book for

a perfect example of over-writing.) Of course Kerouac's genius begins to

be evident in ON THE ROAD, but can we imagine Jack writing like that

without taking into account his correspondence with Neal Cassady? Jack

was blown away not only by Neal's talk, but also by the fact that NEAL

COULD WRITE THE WAY HE TALKED. And it is Neal's voice that is the basic

model for the prose style of ON THE ROAD. VISIONS OF CODY of course

transcended this imitative bent and is a better book (though it is, of

course, Jack's attempt at writing his own ULYSSES.)

 

Now I expect to be flamed here, but I think a lot of Jack's Buddhist

writing is an embarrassing imitation of the antique translations found

in Dwight Goddard's BUDDHIST BIBLE. And Jack's philosophizing in SOME OF

THE DHARMA is so much freshman rhetoric (for my money, anyway...tho I

admit I haven't read SOTD all the way through.)

 

Strangely, I think Jack's most personal voice comes through in VANITY OF

DULUOZ and BIG SUR, though these books, (like all of 'em), are heavily

flawed. I remember reading that Jack was reading Pascal around the time

he wrote VOD.

 

Try reading THE TOWN AND THE CITY and VANITY OF DULUOZ, (which cover

almost the same time periods in Jack's life), back to back, and the

essense of Kerouac - and the evolution of his writing style - will hit

you like a freight train.

 

Gotta go...I'm at work.

 

love, john h.

--

 

 

*** JOHN HASBROUCK

*** Graphic Design & Fingerstyle Guitar in Chicago

*** http://www.tezcat.com/~jhasbro

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:50:18 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Dos Passos

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In an earlier GAN post Bill Gargan refers to the possible influence of

Dos Passos on JK and others.  This has intrigued me also.  Does anyone

recall any references of Jacks to John DP?  It seems so obvious, the

same way one wouldn't need to have evidence that Jack was influenced by

Thomas Wolfe, but it would be nice to have some evidence.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:57:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: to tyson

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>feeling the stings of arrows. you are a valuable member of the list,

>even

>though you feel under attack right now.

>i am very sorry that you misread my post, (i think that's what happend)

>in friendship if this is possible,

>mc(not a fascist)

 

      thanks for the kind words.. i think we should just chalk it up to

another case of foot in mouth, and move on.  i don't know what caused

me to go on the defense, must've been stressed or something.  thanks

for tolerating me.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:26:32 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Techniques (was Re: method and meaning

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> RACE wrote:

 

> Where does one start?  Perhaps with the beginnings of Queer as it has

> been mentioned several times of late.

> 

> Any takers?

 

As I remember from reading the intro to Queer a while back, it is not

that long.  For those of us that no longer have the book handy, could

someone just start posting a few passages or a paragraph at a time so we

could all discuss it together?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:07:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

 

okay you guys,

i don't know why this is continuing. i don't want to come out and say, i'm

the one whose poem was mocked, let me fight it out, because i don't seriously

care. it is sherri and i who should be coming forth. i appreciate you all for

telling paul to cool it and remember people's feelings, but i think its a

waste of time. of course it bothered me, but it didn't keep me up all night.

Listen, i have faith in my abilities. i like my poetry, i like my style. i

use my angst. i am a teenager. paul is free to say what he wishes. honestly i

feel flattered that he spent time with my poem coming up with his version.

i'm aware of cruelty in this world. but i take things in stride. i was angry

and resentful, but now i simply don't care. please guys don't continue this

ridiculous thread. its done, Mr. Maher has acted i have reacted. Now all i

ask of him is to post poetry of his so i can have a crack at him. Ha ha!

Seriously folks, this isn't important. I'm not hurt. don't waste your breath.

get back to the beat.....the beat...the beat...

 

                                             ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:01:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Ron Whitehead (was Re: That Fascist Leon?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>I've corresponded some with RW recently.  I sent him my little ditty

>"Gang of One" that i'd posted on the Beat-L.  Not having been around

>when the RW history happened I had no real idea of the fact that folks

>had reacted against his writing.  I'm certainly glad that the atmosphere

>has changed with regards to such matters.  So who is gonna invite Ron

>back?

 

     not having seen that whole thing either i have no idea what you're

talking about.  though i have heard the name before.  reacted against

his writing?  anyone have samples of this writing? Always interested in

seeing a piece of writing that has the ability to ruffle feathers.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:15:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The highway's calling....

 

In a message dated 97-11-11 09:02:35 EST, you write:

 

<< Any good road stories?

 

 david rhaesa

 salina, Kansas >>

 

sorry david....wish i did.....got stuck in a little nothing town called

niceville. ever pass through niceville in north florida? i don't reccomend

it. was accosted by come bible thumping christians (hope i didn't offend

anyone) okay not accosted maybe pentacosted. ha! well i'm in the works of

some more car poetry....trip inspired i'll post that soon. Do i dare?!

   what the hell....i dare!       take it easy all.

muchos carinos,

                            ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:17:15 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: to tyson

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Tyson,

 

That's an impressive statement.  We all hate to back down--yet to do so

when you need to shows class. We could all take a lesson.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

 

>       thanks for the kind words.. i think we should just chalk it up to

> another case of foot in mouth, and move on.  i don't know what caused

> me to go on the defense, must've been stressed or something.  thanks

> for tolerating me.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:14:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> So why do things like this sound so much more

>profound when set to music--i.e., to a certain rhythm and tempo? Is this

>gain in profundity just an illusion, or does it *really* add another

>meaningful dimension? I'm beginning to think that it does really add

>something important, that is not reducible to simple semantic meaning.

 

     music is a powerful entity in itself, it's healing, it sings the

rhythyms of the soul, very spiritual,  whether it's mozart or

metallica.  now when tou combine words and music, the words it seems

have a free ride to your subconscious.  how much easier it is to

reiterate a song than words alone, preserving timing, etc.  because it

takes a different path to whatever regions of your mind it goes to,

maybe it penetrates further tht way.  i find the same for music

enhanced by words, music alone doesn't get in there as quickly and

strongly as music with words.  that was part of the reason i mentioned

a progression in literature that combines prose, poetry, music... i

think we'll have to incorporate the visual arts also, again, not merely

an illustrated book, but more fully melded.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:41:33 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Great Grape American European Novel Project

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Jeff Taylor wrote:

 

> So what do we want? A great novel by an American, or a great novel

> about

> that "greatest of all human themes" no matter who it may be written by?

 

I don't think we have set up a mutually exclusive situation.  Great

literature will be seen as great no matter the country of origin of the

writer.  But an American who internalizes the American consciousness in

his work will produce something far different than, for example, an

Englishman/woman.  I don't see how the fact that America is diverse would

prevent that from happening. It also has to deal with beginning with the

local and moving from there to the universal.  No writer can ever

separate himself totally from his personal experience no matter how much

his/her art stands alone as great art.  Shakespeare wrote about the

"greatest of human themes" but he was also a product of Elizabethan

England.  The thinking implied in the words "great American"

doesn't imply that America must produce something great because the

country is seen by many as the greatest (like a built-in gene), only that

given the cycles inherent in things, it is time for a new genius to arise

from this country.  It also doesn't mean that the writer won't leave

America.  Even though Joyce's themes and knowledge was universal he wrote

adeptly about the Irish, in spite of the fact that most of his adult life

was lived elsewhere.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:28:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>musical in text (for instance the improv of his breatpocket notebook

>poems, riffing in a certain space) means that kerouac cannot solely be

>examined in terms of written "text" & not only that but i sought to

>expand

>the definition of "text" here on beat-L by introducing the idea of text

>as

>being anything that is recieved.

 

     also keep in mind jack's franco youth, french was spoken all the

time.  english was more or less his second language, even though he

spoke it from a young age because of the non-french presence in

lowell..  but in what is essentially a french mill town (speaking from

my own experience) and being franco in that environment, franco

language and thought patterns are the ever present influence, and there

is quite a superiority complex of sorts among the french towards the

non-franco in their community, which serves only to reinforce the

influence.  and so the english language takes on aspects that people

who were raised in purely english speaking non-traditional, fairly

unethnic environments.  one really sees it quite differentlly.  it's

not that the franco-effected individual disrespects the english

language, but is more naturally disposed, i think, to pushing and

twisting it as far as he can manage..  from early on you learn to make

the most out of the fewest english words, and that trend continues,

even once you've grasped all the subtleties of the english language.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:30:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: interest from the illiterate re:the GAN

Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>Perhaps one day all of us may become known as the "Intuitionists."

>We'll be in the history books, the english books and be required reading

>for college freshman english courses.  We'll have our own section in the

>syllabus!  Dream dream dream....

 

     groovy, just remember who coined the term.  hehe..

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:37:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>of course it bothered me, but it didn't keep me up all night.

>Listen, i have faith in my abilities. i like my poetry, i like my

>style. i

>use my angst. i am a teenager. paul is free to say what he wishes.

>honestly i

>feel flattered that he spent time with my poem coming up with his

>version.

>i'm aware of cruelty in this world. but i take things in stride.

 

     well then, i commend your demeanor.. many teenagers wouldn't take

in stride what you did.  my hat off to you, criticism and praise can be

vices, good to see you're keeping your head about it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:12:10 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Techniques (was Re: method and meaning

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

thanks diane. my copy appears to have been 'borrowed' and the library copy

is stolen

mc

 

Diane Carter wrote:

 

> > RACE wrote:

> 

> > Where does one start?  Perhaps with the beginnings of Queer as it has

> > been mentioned several times of late.

> >

> > Any takers?

> 

> As I remember from reading the intro to Queer a while back, it is not

> that long.  For those of us that no longer have the book handy, could

> someone just start posting a few passages or a paragraph at a time so we

> could all discuss it together?

> DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:23:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: December Cover of the Month now posted!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi Paul,

 

        I visited Kerouac Quarterly site again this morning and it's

certainly expanded! - nice. However, I was getting Netscape errors, perhaps

because as a neo-luddite I'm still using version 2.0. Also the jpeg of

Rinaldo's cover of On the Road would not load completely...just got a

heavily pixellated view. Is that also my version of Netscape or are others

having similar problems? ...anyone else?

 

        I took a copy of the jpeg and it seems to be partial interlaced image.

 

        I also downloaded Bob Martin's song about Stella Kerouac - I'll go

back to sample the others.

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:37:01 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Dos Passos

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i used memory babe as reference and came up with the following references

to dos passos (hi james!)

 

p87: (early college years)"for a while jack, along with the others tried

writing like joyce. eventually most of them settled for imitating dos

passos whose style seemed a compromise between joyce's extreme discipline

and wolfe's veerbal abandon....althogh jack admitted wolf's flaws, wolfe

remained his literary god.

ps 497: of course partly jack was excited to contact the wobblies, whose

exploits had been so gloriously chronicled by dos passos..

p79(back to roots again) that sumer sammy and jack were reading dos

passos' usa trilogy and manhatten transfer, and joyc's a portrait of the

artist as a young man..

p 344kerouca's cadallac limosine covers much the same territory as

whitman's horse-trolley. yet on the road has often ben attacked for being

outside any recognizable american literary tradition, even thou in the use

of an idiomatic american diction kerouac follows, among others, twain jack

london james farrel and dos passos...

p345: doubtless as a tip off to their influence, kerouac employs many

distinctive words and epithets of london and dos passo such as the use of

bo for hobo, chi for chicago and yare for yes..not only do london and dos

passos make frequent use of the phrase 'on the road' but both refer to

buming across country as 'beating one's way' a fact that casts new light

on the origin of the term 'beat generation, especially kerouac spoke of

'beating his way' in letters

 

James Stauffer wrote:

 

> In an earlier GAN post Bill Gargan refers to the possible influence of

> Dos Passos on JK and others.  This has intrigued me also.  Does anyone

> recall any references of Jacks to John DP?  It seems so obvious, the

> same way one wouldn't need to have evidence that Jack was influenced by

> Thomas Wolfe, but it would be nice to have some evidence.

> 

> J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:19:04 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: to tyson

 

hey tywon, it's cool happens to all of us at various points along the way.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Tyson Ouellette

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:57 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: to tyson

 

>feeling the stings of arrows. you are a valuable member of the list,

>even

>though you feel under attack right now.

>i am very sorry that you misread my post, (i think that's what happend)

>in friendship if this is possible,

>mc(not a fascist)

 

      thanks for the kind words.. i think we should just chalk it up to

another case of foot in mouth, and move on.  i don't know what caused

me to go on the defense, must've been stressed or something.  thanks

for tolerating me.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:39:16 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      dos passos

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Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> i used memory babe as reference and came up with the following

> references

> to dos passos (hi james!)

> 

> p87: (early college years)"for a while jack, along with the others

> tried

> writing like joyce. eventually most of them settled for imitating dos

> passos whose style seemed a compromise between joyce's extreme

> discipline

> and wolfe's veerbal abandon....althogh jack admitted wolf's flaws,

> wolfe

> remained his literary god.

> ps 497: of course partly jack was excited to contact the wobblies,

> whose

> exploits had been so gloriously chronicled by dos passos..

> p79(back to roots again) that sumer sammy and jack were reading dos

> passos' usa trilogy and manhatten transfer, and joyc's a portrait of

> the

> artist as a young man..

> p 344kerouca's cadallac limosine covers much the same territory as

> whitman's horse-trolley. yet on the road has often ben attacked for

> being

> outside any recognizable american literary tradition, even thou in the

> use

> of an idiomatic american diction kerouac follows, among others, twain

> jack

> london james farrel and dos passos...

> p345: doubtless as a tip off to their influence, kerouac employs many

> distinctive words and epithets of london and dos passo such as the use

> of

> bo for hobo, chi for chicago and yare for yes..not only do london and

> dos

> passos make frequent use of the phrase 'on the road' but both refer to

> 

> buming across country as 'beating one's way' a fact that casts new

> light

> on the origin of the term 'beat generation, especially kerouac spoke

> of

> 'beating his way' in letters

> 

> James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> > In an earlier GAN post Bill Gargan refers to the possible influence

> of

> > Dos Passos on JK and others.  This has intrigued me also.  Does

> anyone

> > recall any references of Jacks to John DP?  It seems so obvious, the

> 

> > same way one wouldn't need to have evidence that Jack was influenced

> by

> > Thomas Wolfe, but it would be nice to have some evidence.

> >

> > J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:41:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

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At 08:25 AM 11/11/97 -0700, you wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>> >I thought it was about what he "read" and not what he "heard."

>paul -

>yes it was. BUT i think that an author like kerouac, an author who put so

>much stock in rhythm and sound of words who was so influenced by the

>musical in text (for instance the improv of his breatpocket notebook

>poems, riffing in a certain space) means that kerouac cannot solely be

>examined in terms of written "text" & not only that but i sought to expand

>the definition of "text" here on beat-L by introducing the idea of text as

>being anything that is recieved.

>yrs

>derek

>Kerouac had to arrive at what he accomplished with "riffing" when he

emulated beforehand the various literary influences he had read throughout

his youth and young adult-hood. Just as he had to learn English before he

could write fluently in the language...surely there are stages of writing

necessary before one can arrive with a breakthrough that you can call your

own. I was remarking earlier on his influences as a writer in general and

not refinement of his technique. P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:48:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: December Cover of the Month now posted!

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 12:23 PM 11/11/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi Paul,

> 

>        I visited Kerouac Quarterly site again this morning and it's

>certainly expanded! - nice. However, I was getting Netscape errors, perhaps

>because as a neo-luddite I'm still using version 2.0. Also the jpeg of

>Rinaldo's cover of On the Road would not load completely...just got a

>heavily pixellated view. Is that also my version of Netscape or are others

>having similar problems? ...anyone else?

> 

>        I took a copy of the jpeg and it seems to be partial interlaced image.

> 

>        I also downloaded Bob Martin's song about Stella Kerouac - I'll go

>back to sample the others.

> 

>        Antoine

> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

>cease to be amused."

>Go to Netscape and dowload for free the newest version. That is what I have

used for the web page and seems to need at least that for the nuances of the

page. Thanks, Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:34:35 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Kerouac & football

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If any beat-l members are subscribers to ESPN sportszone (unfortunately

I'm not), there's a column about Kerouac and his days as a promising

halfback. The story is for subscribers only, and if anyone out there has

access to the story I'm sure the list would appreciate yr posting it on

beat-l. Here's where to go:

 

http://espn.sportszone.com/premium/gen/columns/isaacs/00447592.html

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:34:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Greatest Novels ...

In-Reply-To:  <3467D199.EC12EB3A@scsn.net>

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At 22:31 10/11/97 -0500, you wrote:

>I don't know about "great" but there are some American Novels that

>profoundly shaped my way of looking at reality.  Some aren't really

>novels even.  But, from the time I was about 16 to 24 or so, those

>were, in a general order of discovery:

> 

>The Good Earth

>Catch 22

>Slaughterhouse 5

>Moby Dick

>Trout Fishing in America

>A Confederate General in Big Sur (?)

>Thomas Wolfe's work

>Bob Dylan  (I saw it in a different light after reading Wolfe)

>Jack Kerouac

>V

>The Crying of Lot 49

>Phillip Dick's Science Fiction work

>T S Eliot

>Ginsberg

>Studs Turkle (sp?)

>The Last Tycoon (Fitzgerald's unfinished novel)

>Michener

> 

>I think I stuck to American writers there, but maybe not.

> 

>Outside of America, in order as I recall:

> 

>Dickens

>Shakespear

>The Kazamarov Brothers (sp)

>Steppenwolf

>I, Claudius

>The White Goddess

>King Jesus

>Tom Jones (came to it rather late for some reason)

> 

>I think that at various times I have imagined the GAN, but I am not

>sure that a writer can capture the spirit of America in one book.  If

>there is one, I think it would be Of Time and the River by Wolfe.  It

>is a hard read, but it captures the spirit best of anything that I

>have read.  My second choice would be Dharma Bums, although, I think

>The Last Tycoon is a masterpiece that did not receive its just due.

> 

 

Yes, let's not restrict ourselves to American novels. I'd be interested in

hearing what others think are the greatest novels they've read, American or

otherwise.

 

Here's my (short) list:

 

The Stranger (aka The Outsider)  -- Camus

The Demon  -- Hubert Selby

The Room -- Hubert Selby

Naked Lunch -- WSB

Hunger -- Knut Hamsun

Great Gatsby -- Fitzgerald

Notes From The Underground -- Dosty

 

I think Selby is incredibly under-appreciated. I think he's a master. I

also think Alexander Trocchi's book "Young Adam" deserves an honourable

mention, but that just might be the existentialist in me talking!

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:11:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kathleen Beres <beresk@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <msg1202551.thr-fce70deb.55d4ae2@umit.maine.edu>

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well, i like my ocean idea as well, but now we have to classify it,

and then name it, and then assign it a place in relation to all

other oceans...does it ever stop?

j donahue

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >well, i like the idea, but why a stream?  wouldnt an ocean be a

> >better metaphor?  rather than linear, it is infested with cross-

> >currents, but all contained somehow in this great expanse...

> >just a thought.

> 

>      definitely... i'm a victim of writing e-mail on the fly, without

> thinking about what i write before i write it... ocean is definitely

> better.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:33:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Kathleen Beres wrote:

> 

> well, i like my ocean idea as well, but now we have to classify it,

> and then name it, and then assign it a place in relation to all

> other oceans...does it ever stop?

> j donahue

 

don't forget how many paragraphs between El Nino effects!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

> 

> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> 

> > >well, i like the idea, but why a stream?  wouldnt an ocean be a

> > >better metaphor?  rather than linear, it is infested with cross-

> > >currents, but all contained somehow in this great expanse...

> > >just a thought.

> >

> >      definitely... i'm a victim of writing e-mail on the fly, without

> > thinking about what i write before i write it... ocean is definitely

> > better.

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:40:13 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: More of the Dharma...this is BEAT-L, after all!

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Adrien Begrand wrote:

> 

> Jack Kerouac on classic 'structured' poetry:

> 

>         "Our savants all have bad taste.---Imagine Robt.Frost being better

 than

> Thoreau, because of a few verse tricks.---I can take out a ruler and

> measure too. I can even tell you how high a tree is by use of

> geometry.---This makes me Archimedes? Lines make a poem?---I've seen

> true poems in the middle of formless fortunate explanations, heard them

> in the street & admired & forget them right there. Robert me No

> Frost---Penn Warren me no more---" (Some Of The Dharma, p.120)

> 

> This was written in early fall 1954, right when Allen Ginsberg was

> starting to follow Jack's example, to avoid the middle of the road and

> head for the ditch (sorry, that's a Neil Young quote!).

> 

> Adrien

 

This reminds me of talking with folks during graduate school somewhere

sometime (i think) about assignments to read Heidegger.  Their heads

were all contorted from trying to process the information and calculate

the strings of thought and evidently my head did not appear contorted.

When asked why -- i just said it's poetic philosophy don't try to turn

it into something it ain't.  Lines.  Definitely they can appear

anywhere.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:57:07 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Jack's reading list - John Hasbrouck?

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I must say I really enjoyed this post.  I think there are a number of good

observations and insights.

 

I remember back about 10 years ago when I had access to a great university

library and had a lot of time to read and study i was reading kerouac and

others (Joyce especially) and was checking out failry obscure books on Joyce

and Finnegans Wake.  In reading them i really got a sense of deja vu at

times having to do with kerouac's stuff.  I got the feeling that kerouac had

been there before in terms of these obscure tomes and I saw it reflected in

Visions of Cody and Dr. Sax.  I have no notes from back then and remember

few details.  I think one book was Skeleton Guide (by Joseph Campbell and

Robinson)to Finnegans Wake.  (I remember I had an idea to jot down all the

coincidences I was seeing but nothing ever came of it).

 

Also I felt that Pic and the vernacular he used to try and write it were

inspired by Zora Neale Hurston.  I felt he read her books as well.  I think

the similarity in the vernacular prose and later (I've mentioned this

before) the use of Moultrie as last name for the Sal character in the dry

runs for On the Road could come from something mentioned in Their Eyes Were

watching God by Hurston.  This was the ame time frame he was writing Pic

and the various dry runs or false starts for On the Road.

 

I think around that time he was reading and writing and learning at a fast

rate and absorbing.  I'd agree that later he reached a more personal voice

in the later books.  I might even begin with Desolation Angels where he got

to that point.

 

I also won't flame you about Some of the Dharma because I tend to agree with

you.  But at the same time it was not freshman rhetoric of 1954 but would be

of today.  I think that Goddard's Buddhist Bible was cited as a key

reference book he found about Buddhism.  Also he may have translated some

french tests on Buddhism.  Some of the Dharma becomes intriguing not as a

Buddhist textbook but as a Kerouac piece.

 

At 09:53 AM 11/11/97 +0000, you wrote:

>Dear Sherri, Antoine, et. al.,

> 

>Good question! Doing a study of an author's reading list is a very cool

>idea. I glanced at a full-length, scholarly book on Thoreau's reading,

>though I didn't have the gumption to pursue it. I know of no better

>readily available source for learning what Kerouac was reading at

>specific points in his life than Nicosia's MEMORY BABE.

> 

>My opinion is that Kerouac was very suggestible and that his writing was

>easily influenced by his reading. He tended to be imitative of what he

>was reading. I believe that he developed his own voice very gradually,

>and became fully mature in this regard perhaps only very late in his

>career - when he was, sadly, tired and loaded.

> 

>It's an accepted critical notion that THE TOWN AND THE CITY was

>imitative of Thomas Wolfe. (Reread the second sentence in that book for

>a perfect example of over-writing.) Of course Kerouac's genius begins to

>be evident in ON THE ROAD, but can we imagine Jack writing like that

>without taking into account his correspondence with Neal Cassady? Jack

>was blown away not only by Neal's talk, but also by the fact that NEAL

>COULD WRITE THE WAY HE TALKED. And it is Neal's voice that is the basic

>model for the prose style of ON THE ROAD. VISIONS OF CODY of course

>transcended this imitative bent and is a better book (though it is, of

>course, Jack's attempt at writing his own ULYSSES.)

> 

>Now I expect to be flamed here, but I think a lot of Jack's Buddhist

>writing is an embarrassing imitation of the antique translations found

>in Dwight Goddard's BUDDHIST BIBLE. And Jack's philosophizing in SOME OF

>THE DHARMA is so much freshman rhetoric (for my money, anyway...tho I

>admit I haven't read SOTD all the way through.)

> 

>Strangely, I think Jack's most personal voice comes through in VANITY OF

>DULUOZ and BIG SUR, though these books, (like all of 'em), are heavily

>flawed. I remember reading that Jack was reading Pascal around the time

>he wrote VOD.

> 

>Try reading THE TOWN AND THE CITY and VANITY OF DULUOZ, (which cover

>almost the same time periods in Jack's life), back to back, and the

>essense of Kerouac - and the evolution of his writing style - will hit

>you like a freight train.

> 

>Gotta go...I'm at work.

> 

>love, john h.

>--

> 

> 

>*** JOHN HASBROUCK

>*** Graphic Design & Fingerstyle Guitar in Chicago

>*** http://www.tezcat.com/~jhasbro

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:09:56 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Ron Whitehead

 

I invited Ron to come back as soon as he liked when he left.  I think he may re

turn someday.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:35:14 -0600

Reply-To:     Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject:      Another Kerouac and The Great American novel

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PMDF.3.95.971111053424.568519820A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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As responses to my first post about the possibility, let me rephrase my

question (i feel many people misunderstood me):

 

        If Jack kerouac's spirit has been reincarnated into another body

(Jack himself believed in reincarnation (je pense)), what would he be

doing in modern times?  Would he be a writer?  Would he be famous?  Would

he be a director?

 

I didn't intend for people to write back saying "There will never be

another Kerouac, get over it."  I just wanted to see what you all think.

 

 

THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL

 

I think it is important to rate books.  Someone wrote "I read everything."

It is impossible to read EVERYTHING, so we must edit our list of things to

read.  It is important to say "this is better than that."  There is a lot

of crappy literature out there, and i don't want to waste my life reading

it.  A few days a go i had a discussion with my creative writing professor

(the poet Peter Cooley) and i told him that i don't want to read anything

that doesn't change my life, and i still feel this way.  Great literature

changes our lives.  I've been feeling lonely lately because i've been

reading Look Homeward, Angel.  the most tender book i've ever read.  (i

may even argue that it is the GAN.  And i do read essays (im a philosophy

major, dammit) and i think Thomas Wolfe's essay, "God's lonely man" from

the Hills Beyond is absolutely beautiful.  Great literature tells us

something about ourselves.  It pulls something out of the great ocean of

unconscious and puts it right in front of our eyes.

 

Other recommendations for the GAN:

 

Visons of Cody (hell, the book's dedication page reads: "Dedicated to

America, whatever that is)

 

Gatsby (the tragic destruction of the American Dream)

 

On the Road (finding meaning in an America which found its dream

destroyed)

 

Last Tycoon (god damn, i wish this book was finished--that is tragic

enough to put this one up there)

 

In Our Time (Hemingway's best.  Maybe not a novel defined by conventional

means, but it is wonderful)

 

 

 

and im sure there more but my memories shot.

 

-matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:11:34 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Dos Passos

In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:37:01 +0000 from

              <country@SOVER.NET>

 

Thanks for this post.  I'll go and check Gerry's footnotes and see if I can tak

e it any further.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:33:21 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Another Kerouac and The Great American novel

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I tend to think in terms of authors rather than books, but there are

exceptions I guess.  Usually an author and his or her entire oeuvre are

worth reading if one book is a "classic" or immortal or really really good

or whatever we want to call it.

 

I remember when I was young (I mean 19, 20) I thought there was the big 5:

Joyce, Kerouac, Celine, Miller and Burroughs.  I was taking a creative

writing class back then and mentioned this to an older fellow (older then,

he was probably as old as I am now, mid thirties).  He answered: "yeah, all

the weirdos".

 

I didn't think of them as weirdos per se but just who I was keen on.  Now I

would only include Kerouac and Joyce in the big group.

 

It is hard to say why one author or book might do something for one peron

but not another and any of these lists will end up like that.  But at the

same time there can be appreciation of work that doesn't do "it" for you

but does it for someone else.  For example people have mentioned Heminhway

and Fitzgerald.  I remember they made us read A Clean Well Lighted Place and

the Old Man and the Sea and they made us read The Great Gatsby back in High

School.  I must say Gatsby did very little for me nor did Hemingway, but I

didn't dislike them.  Similarly Faulkner never did "it" for me.  I might

appreciate them more now.  I think taste changes over time and appreciation

changes.  And I think there are young books and older books and ageless books.

 

Authors my list (short)

Kerouac (of course why am I on this list)

 

Joyce

 

Philip K. Dick (good call by John)

 

Zora Neale Hurston (a totally amazing oeuvre from anthropology to fiction

and it's all part of the same whole)

 

Lu Xun (a Chinese writer who was pretty much a contemporay of Joyce. He died

in 1936. It is sad that his works aren't published by any major publisher in

the US or Britain).

 

Vonnegut (I avoided him for a long time due to reverse snobbery when I was

younger as he was so popular.  I was wrong.  Talking about influences or

imitations I think he got a lot from Celine but that's just a guess).

 

(I also must add Gore Vidal, not because of any great literary impact of

lasting, but historically when I was in High scool I read most of his books.

To me his stuff kind of hovers between fiction and literature.  Of his stuff

Messiah from the fifties would be the one and Burr for the non-fiction

fictions.  The fact that Vidal rewrote Messiah as Kalki later in the 70's I

think exemplifies his overall place--in other words he's a good writer but

didn't do "it".)

 

Then might come books.

 

Junky

Tropic of Capricorn

Catcher in the Rye

Gogol's Diary of a Madman and other stories

Les Chants de Maldoror by DuCasse (Comte de Lautreamont)

Journey to the End of Night by Celine

Ubu Roi

 

Of these with the exception of Gogol I don't know if I would reccommend or

like them today.  I think these are young books.  But they did stick with me

enough to mention them now.

 

Oh yes,  and

 

The Journey to the West the old story of the Monkey King and how the Buddha

set it up so the scriptures could be brought to the East from the West and

the adventures of the gang that went to get them.  Another book that would

be hard to find at most bookstores.

 

Then there could be the non-fictions

 

DT Suzuki's Intro to Zen Buddhism

Thomas a Kempis' Imitation of Christ

 

I read the Suzuki before the a kempis and was struck by the great

similarities in them.

 

I don't know,

 

I know there are more.  I remember reading Levi's page of his favorite 15

books and wondering what mine would be.

 

 And all these things are so subjective.  I clearly had a penchant for

surrealism and things like that in my youth.

 

Now I read mainly non-fiction.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:06:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and there:

 

  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

  Shakespeare - everything

  Thomas Wolfe - everything

  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment Plan,

           Guignol's Band

  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

  Jack London

  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

  The Bible

  Indian Scriptures

  The Buddhist Bible

  Ernest Hemingway

  William Faulkner- Pylon

  Thomas Mann

  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

  A number of Buddhist texts

  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

  Gogol - Dead Souls

  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a Young Man

  John Keats

  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

  Honore de Balzac

  A Biography of George Washington

  W.H. Auden

  Ezra Pound

  Francois Rabelais

  William Saroyan

  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

  Arthur Rimbaud

  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

  Kafka - The Castle

  Edgar Allan Poe

  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

  William Penn - Maxims

  Greek Philosophy

  The Shadow

  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

  Mark Twain

  Yeats

  Gertrude Stein

  T.S. Eliot

 

  Now this does not mean that he was influenced by all this...he is simply

documented in journals, letters, notebooks etc. that he had read them. Some

he didn't even like, such as Gertrude Stein and T.S. Eliot. feel free to add

to this list and I will post a final version on The Kerouac Quarterly Web

Site. Thanks, Paul...

 

                 (courtesy of The Kerouac Quarterly)

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:30:47 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Kerouac's reading

 

Thanks for posting the K. reading list, Paul.  This could make a nice Beat-l p

roject.  People could post new titles they discover to the list, with a note pe

rhaps on the source of their information, i.e.  "The 42nd Parallel"  letter to

Alfred Kazin, v. 2 p. 112 of Selected Letters.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:50:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Paul and others,

 

        To more fully respond to Sherri's post it would be really great to

get dates for these readings....

                        Antoine

 

                ****************

 

>A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and there:

> 

>  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

>  Shakespeare - everything

>  Thomas Wolfe - everything

>  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

>  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

>  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

>  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment Plan,

>           Guignol's Band

>  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

>  Jack London

>  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

>  The Bible

>  Indian Scriptures

>  The Buddhist Bible

>  Ernest Hemingway

>  William Faulkner- Pylon

>  Thomas Mann

>  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

>  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

>  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

>  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

>  A number of Buddhist texts

>  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

>  Gogol - Dead Souls

>  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

>  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

>  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

>  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a Young Man

>  John Keats

>  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

>  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

>  Honore de Balzac

>  A Biography of George Washington

>  W.H. Auden

>  Ezra Pound

>  Francois Rabelais

>  William Saroyan

>  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

>  Arthur Rimbaud

>  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

>  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

>  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

>  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

>  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

>  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

>  Kafka - The Castle

>  Edgar Allan Poe

>  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

>  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

>  William Penn - Maxims

>  Greek Philosophy

>  The Shadow

>  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

>  Mark Twain

>  Yeats

>  Gertrude Stein

>  T.S. Eliot

> 

>  Now this does not mean that he was influenced by all this...he is simply

>documented in journals, letters, notebooks etc. that he had read them. Some

>he didn't even like, such as Gertrude Stein and T.S. Eliot. feel free to add

>to this list and I will post a final version on The Kerouac Quarterly Web

>Site. Thanks, Paul...

> 

>                 (courtesy of The Kerouac Quarterly)

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:55:46 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         STACY HAMMONS <hammons@E-TEX.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding:  quoted-printable

 

----------

From:   Paul A. Maher Jr.[SMTP:mapaul@PIPELINE.COM]

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:06 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

 

A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and =

there:

 

  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

  Shakespeare - everything

  Thomas Wolfe - everything

  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment =

Plan,

           Guignol's Band

  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

  Jack London

  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

  The Bible

  Indian Scriptures

  The Buddhist Bible

  Ernest Hemingway

  William Faulkner- Pylon

  Thomas Mann

  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

  A number of Buddhist texts

  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

  Gogol - Dead Souls

  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a =

Young Man

  John Keats

  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

  Honore de Balzac

  A Biography of George Washington

  W.H. Auden

  Ezra Pound

  Francois Rabelais

  William Saroyan

  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

  Arthur Rimbaud

  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

  Kafka - The Castle

  Edgar Allan Poe

  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

  William Penn - Maxims

  Greek Philosophy

  The Shadow

  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

  Mark Twain

  Yeats

  Gertrude Stein

  T.S. Eliot

 

  Now this does not mean that he was influenced by all this...he is =

simply

documented in journals, letters, notebooks etc. that he had read them. =

Some

he didn't even like, such as Gertrude Stein and T.S. Eliot. feel free to =

add

to this list and I will post a final version on The Kerouac Quarterly =

Web

Site. Thanks, Paul...

 

                 (courtesy of The Kerouac Quarterly)

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our =

virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

 

 

sorry to bother you, but I am not very computer-friendly, and I have =

some how gotten in on this group... Can you please tell me how to =

unsubscribe?

 

                                thank you very much.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:15:59 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:50 PM 11/11/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Paul and others,

> 

>        To more fully respond to Sherri's post it would be really great to

>get dates for these readings....

>                        Antoine

> 

>Antoine and others - That kind of research is all part of the charm of my

new book which is out there looking for a publisher. It takes a lot of

pinning down but one can find this information in Selected Letters for a

start. I will try to put some dates to these and place them on the web page.

Now...I will add more readings at the end of this list to make it as

comprehensive as possible. Of course, we will never get every thing he ever

read.

                ****************

> 

>>A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and there:

>> 

>>  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

>>  Shakespeare - everything

>>  Thomas Wolfe - everything

>>  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

>>  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

>>  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

>>  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment Plan,

>>           Guignol's Band

>>  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

>>  Jack London

>>  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

>>  The Bible

>>  Indian Scriptures

>>  The Buddhist Bible

>>  Ernest Hemingway

>>  William Faulkner- Pylon

>>  Thomas Mann

>>  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

>>  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

>>  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

>>  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

>>  A number of Buddhist texts

>>  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

>>  Gogol - Dead Souls

>>  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

>>  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

>>  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

>>  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a

Young Man

>>  John Keats

>>  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

>>  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

>>  Honore de Balzac

>>  A Biography of George Washington

>>  W.H. Auden

>>  Ezra Pound

>>  Francois Rabelais

>>  William Saroyan

>>  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

>>  Arthur Rimbaud

>>  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

>>  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

>>  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

>>  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

>>  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

>>  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

>>  Kafka - The Castle

>>  Edgar Allan Poe

>>  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

>>  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

>>  William Penn - Maxims

>>  Greek Philosophy

>>  The Shadow

>>  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

>>  Mark Twain

>>  Yeats

>>  Gertrude Stein

>>  T.S. Eliot

>>  Walt Whitman - Leaves of Grass

    W.H. Auden

    e.e. cummings

    Emily Dickinson

    Henry David Thoreau

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>  Now this does not mean that he was influenced by all this...he is simply

>>documented in journals, letters, notebooks etc.in his own hand that he had

read them. Some he didn't like, such as Gertrude Stein and T.S. Eliot. feel

free to add to this list and I will post a final version on The Kerouac

Quarterly Web

>>Site and the quarterly. Thanks, Paul...

>> 

>>                 (courtesy of The Kerouac Quarterly)

>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                           Henry David Thoreau

>> 

> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

>cease to be amused."

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:19:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:41 PM 11/11/97 UT, you wrote:

>Can't find your original post, Paul, (probably on my work computer) regarding

>JK's being influenced by his reading "list", but wanted to ask if you knew of

>any books that address which books/authors JK was reading right before  (and

>during) the writing of any particular book.  this would be a fascinating and

>illuminating study.  anyone on the list ever done any such research?

> 

>ciao,  sherri

>sherri - I will pull the research I did for my book and incorporate it into

an article for the Kerouac Quarterly. This is precisely what my book Looking

For Jack involves. I placed an excerpt of it concerning Shakespeare in the

second issue. I really put a lot of time in the work and will be quite

detailed whenever it comes out. P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:17:18 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

Paul, thanks.  that would be great!  please let me know when that issue is

available.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Paul A. Maher Jr.

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 6:19 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

At 02:41 PM 11/11/97 UT, you wrote:

>Can't find your original post, Paul, (probably on my work computer) regarding

>JK's being influenced by his reading "list", but wanted to ask if you knew of

>any books that address which books/authors JK was reading right before  (and

>during) the writing of any particular book.  this would be a fascinating and

>illuminating study.  anyone on the list ever done any such research?

> 

>ciao,  sherri

>sherri - I will pull the research I did for my book and incorporate it into

an article for the Kerouac Quarterly. This is precisely what my book Looking

For Jack involves. I placed an excerpt of it concerning Shakespeare in the

second issue. I really put a lot of time in the work and will be quite

detailed whenever it comes out. P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:17:37 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

 

he must have read Robert Frost, given his comments about him....

 

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Paul A. Maher Jr.

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 6:15 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

 

At 08:50 PM 11/11/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Paul and others,

> 

>        To more fully respond to Sherri's post it would be really great to

>get dates for these readings....

>                        Antoine

> 

>Antoine and others - That kind of research is all part of the charm of my

new book which is out there looking for a publisher. It takes a lot of

pinning down but one can find this information in Selected Letters for a

start. I will try to put some dates to these and place them on the web page.

Now...I will add more readings at the end of this list to make it as

comprehensive as possible. Of course, we will never get every thing he ever

read.

                ****************

> 

>>A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and there:

>> 

>>  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

>>  Shakespeare - everything

>>  Thomas Wolfe - everything

>>  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

>>  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

>>  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

>>  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment Plan,

>>           Guignol's Band

>>  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

>>  Jack London

>>  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

>>  The Bible

>>  Indian Scriptures

>>  The Buddhist Bible

>>  Ernest Hemingway

>>  William Faulkner- Pylon

>>  Thomas Mann

>>  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

>>  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

>>  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

>>  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

>>  A number of Buddhist texts

>>  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

>>  Gogol - Dead Souls

>>  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

>>  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

>>  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

>>  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a

Young Man

>>  John Keats

>>  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

>>  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

>>  Honore de Balzac

>>  A Biography of George Washington

>>  W.H. Auden

>>  Ezra Pound

>>  Francois Rabelais

>>  William Saroyan

>>  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

>>  Arthur Rimbaud

>>  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

>>  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

>>  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

>>  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

>>  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

>>  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

>>  Kafka - The Castle

>>  Edgar Allan Poe

>>  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

>>  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

>>  William Penn - Maxims

>>  Greek Philosophy

>>  The Shadow

>>  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

>>  Mark Twain

>>  Yeats

>>  Gertrude Stein

>>  T.S. Eliot

>>  Walt Whitman - Leaves of Grass

    W.H. Auden

    e.e. cummings

    Emily Dickinson

    Henry David Thoreau

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>  Now this does not mean that he was influenced by all this...he is simply

>>documented in journals, letters, notebooks etc.in his own hand that he had

read them. Some he didn't like, such as Gertrude Stein and T.S. Eliot. feel

free to add to this list and I will post a final version on The Kerouac

Quarterly Web

>>Site and the quarterly. Thanks, Paul...

>> 

>>                 (courtesy of The Kerouac Quarterly)

>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                           Henry David Thoreau

>> 

> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

>cease to be amused."

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:31:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Greatest Novels ...

 

In a message dated 97-11-11 17:31:07 EST, you write:

 

<< I think Selby is incredibly under-appreciated. I think he's a master. >>

Hubert Selby is a monster writer and should be discussed on this list more

often.  I heartily agree with your selections, Glenn, but I'm curious as to

why you left off Last Exit to Brooklyn.  Isn't it as least as good as The

Demon and The Room?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:01:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Maybe if we follow Bill Gargan's example and place a date and source for the

info we can accomplish our own research. Obviously I got a lot to catch up

on but most of this I knew off the top of my head. I would just add the name

to the bottom of the list with the appropriate source and name of

contributor if you'd like. Let's see what we can come up with. I will then

transfer the list to the web page with credit for the Beat-l. This will give

the list some publicity as I get a lot of people who visit who aren't here

on the list.

  I was thinking of starting the same kind of list with a chronological

order to Jack's road trips and persoanl residences. Paul..

>                ****************

>> 

>>>A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and there:

>>> 

>>>  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

>>>  Shakespeare - everything

>>>  Thomas Wolfe - everything

>>>  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

>>>  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

>>>  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

>>>  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment Plan,

>>>           Guignol's Band

>>>  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

>>>  Jack London

>>>  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

>>>  The Bible

>>>  Indian Scriptures

>>>  The Buddhist Bible

>>>  Ernest Hemingway

>>>  William Faulkner- Pylon

>>>  Thomas Mann

>>>  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

>>>  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

>>>  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

>>>  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

>>>  A number of Buddhist texts

>>>  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

>>>  Gogol - Dead Souls

>>>  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

>>>  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

>>>  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

>>>  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a

>Young Man

>>>  John Keats

>>>  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

>>>  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

>>>  Honore de Balzac

>>>  A Biography of George Washington

>>>  W.H. Auden

>>>  Ezra Pound

>>>  Francois Rabelais

>>>  William Saroyan

>>>  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

>>>  Arthur Rimbaud

>>>  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

>>>  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

>>>  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

>>>  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

>>>  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

>>>  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

>>>  Kafka - The Castle

>>>  Edgar Allan Poe

>>>  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

>>>  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

>>>  William Penn - Maxims

>>>  Greek Philosophy

>>>  The Shadow

>>>  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

>>>  Mark Twain

>>>  Yeats

>>>  Gertrude Stein

>>>  T.S. Eliot

>>>  Walt Whitman - Leaves of Grass

>    W.H. Auden

>    e.e. cummings

>    Emily Dickinson

>    Henry David Thoreau

>    Ralph Waldo Emerson

     Robert Frost (Sherri)

     42nd Parallel (Letter to Alfred Kazin) Bill Gargan

>>>  Now this does not mean that he was influenced by all this...he is simply

>>>documented in journals, letters, notebooks etc.in his own hand that he had

>read them. Some he didn't like, such as Gertrude Stein and T.S. Eliot. feel

>free to add to this list and I will post a final version on The Kerouac

>Quarterly Web

>>>Site and the quarterly. Thanks, Paul...

>>> 

>>>                 (courtesy of The Kerouac Quarterly)

>>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>>                                           Henry David Thoreau

>>> 

>> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>> 

>>    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

>>cease to be amused."

>> 

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:10:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac reading e.e.cummings

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Paul,

 

        That's great of you to do that. Bill's idea is also great...what a

project!

 

...and to all,

 

Seeing e.e.cummimgs on Jack's reading list forces me to put one of cummings'

most "beat" poems for everyone to comment on. I haven't ever heard him read,

but I would love to hear this as he would read it...(have readt it!) Anyone

ever hear any recordings of him?

 

        And after it two in honour of Remembrance day. Give these all a

chance...spare them your too quick delete key!

 

                        Antoine

 

        *****************

 

                                ....I love the rush at the end of this....

 

from "1 x 1" [one times one] (1944)

 

        pity this busy monster,manunkind,

 

        not.   Progress is a comfortable disease:

        your victim(death and life safely beyond)

 

        plays with the bigness of his littleness

        ---electrons deify one razorblade

        into a mountainrange;lenses extend

 

        unwish through curving wherewhen till unwish

        returns on its unself.

                                        A world of made

        is not a world of born--pity poor flesh

 

        and trees,poor stars and stones,but never this

        fine specimen of hypermagical

 

        ultraomnipotence.     We doctors know

 

        a hopeless case if--listen:there's a hell

        of a good universe next door;let's go

 

 

        *****************

 

                                Typed in on Remembrance day after standing

at the cenotaph at 11:00am

                                with men who were in the wars with my Dad,

my Granda, my Uncles....

 

from "is 5" (1926)

 

        look at this)

        a 75 done

        this nobody would

        have believed

        would they no

        kidding this was my particular

 

        pal

        funny aint

        it we was

        buddies

        i used to

 

        know

        him lift the

        poor cuss

        tenderly this side up handle

 

        with care

        fragile

        and send him home

 

        to his old mother in

        a new pine box

 

        (collect

 

                **************

 

                                His anti-war poems are weapons themselves!

Another....

 

from "1 x 1" [one times one] (1944)

 

        plato told

 

        him;he couldn't

        believe it(jesus

 

        told him;he

        wouldn't believe

        it)lao

 

        tsze

        certainly told

        him,and general

        (yes

 

        mam)

        sherman;

        and even

        (believe it

        or

 

        not)you

        told him;i told

        him;we told him

        (he didn't believe it,no

 

        sir)it took

        a nipponized bit of

        the old sixth

 

        avenue

        el;in the top of his head:to tell

 

        him

 

                                I can remeber as a kid (probably '52 - '53)

the big discussion when

                                a small toy birdcage - made in japan - broke

open and was revealed

                                to be made of a 'birdseye' pea can.......

 

                                read e.e.cummings

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:13:51 +0900

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Greatest Novels ...

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.16.19971112083953.21e7626a@mail.mpx.com.au>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

My picks for Greatest Novels (Great American or other). Please respond or

ignore at will.

 

On the Road

Doctor Sax              Jack Kerouac

 

Slaughterhouse Five

Breakfast of Champions  Kurt Vonnegut

 

Lord of the Rings               J.R.R. Tolkien

 

Something Wicked This Way Comes

Dandelion Wine          Ray Bradbury

 

The Stranger

The Plague              Albert Camus

 

The Book of Laughter and Forgetting

The Joke                Milan Kundera

 

The Tin Drum            Gunter Grass

 

Libra

Mao II                  Don Delillo

 

The Painted Bird                Jerzy Kozinski (sp)

 

Invisible Man           Ralph Ellison

 

Tough Guys Don't Dance  Norman Mailer

 

Woman in the Dunes      Kobo Abe

 

Botchan                 Natsume Soseki

 

The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

                        Mark Twain

 

The Atlas               William T. Vollmann

 

:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::

Timothy Hoffman

Komaki English Teaching Center (KETC)

Komaki Shiminkaikan, KETC

2-107 Komaki

Komaki, Aichi 485

work (0568) 76-0905

fax (0568) 77-8207

home (0568)72-3549

timothy@gol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:14:48 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andre Gauthier <agauthi@CCO.NET>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding:  7bit

 

-----Original Message-----

From:   Maggie Gerrity [SMTP:u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM]

Sent:   Monday, November 10, 1997 3:51 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

 

  I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who thinks Vonnegut is

one of the Great American Writers of our time.  Aside from the Beats

and possibly Hemingway, he's the only great writer 20th Century

America has ever had.  It's so tragic that he claims he's written his

last book!

              Maggie G.

 

 

speaking of, what did everyone who read Timequake think?

 

Janelle

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:20:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ron Whitehead (by way of stratis@odyssee.net Antoine Maloney)"

              <RWhiteBone@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>

Subject:      response to Bloom: exploding the Canon II

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

A poem of Ron Whitehead's Tyson......very Beat!

 

        there's another I have that I'll send when I find it.

 

                Antoine

 

        *******************

 

SAN FRANCISCO, MAY 1993

 

               Visited Lawrence Ferlinghetti

               Flew to San Francisco

               Super Shuttled to City Lights

                       keys at the front desk

                       with address and map

               Wandered streets  Kerouac Alley  Kenneth Rexroth Place

                       lost for hours

                            small suitcase weighed down with

                  heavy words "The Mask is the Path of the Star"

                Diane di Prima's chapbook

                            Published in Heaven Series Whie Fields Press

                  limited edition of 50 copies to meet her

                                 and have them signed

               Where is Diane di Prima

              on Laguna  Haight-Ashbury  San Francisco Art Institute

"the only war that matters is the war against the imagination"

         and I'm searching for Diane di Prima

            Where is Lawrence Ferlinghetti

           on Francisco  Telegraph Hill  North Beach  City Lights'

"Poets come out of your closets

 open your windows, open your doors,

 You have been holed up too long

 in your closed worlds..."

       and I'm searching for Lawrence Ferlinghetti

                        Walked Golden Gate Bridge

                         holding Nancye's hand into the wind

                         Alcatraz and sailboats one bent

                         licking the lips of the Bay waters

                         and the Pacific sprays us with tears

                         of Chinese immigrants who for forty days

                         and forty nights have stood on water

                         outside America's door knocking

                         denied entry  denied

                         Fisherman's wharf seals singing

                         some burnt out old hippie screeching

                              "I am a rock I am an island"

                         for spare change from laughing

                         lines of tourists from around the world waiting

                         for trolley tours lunch at Fish Alley

                         hike up Telegraph Hill

                         what a view but

                         a statue of Columbus? is this

                         is this a Columbus I don't know about?

                         the other Columbus? The San Francisco

                         Telegraph Hill North Beach Columbus?

                         Father Christopher Columbus of

                                            Our Lady of the Flowers?

                         no, Lawrence Ferlinghetti says

                         this is THE Christopher Columbus.

                         "We tried to spray paint his

                         hands red but PoliceMen

                         surrounded him all night

                         Columbus Day Eve."

                         Christopher Columbus  Chief Joseph

                         Two histories

                         "Hear me, my chiefs. I am tired; my heart

                         is sick and sad. From where the sun now

                         stands. I will fight no more forever."

walking up hills bowing to gravity

leaning backward with my long hair sweeping pigeon shit from the path

as I descend the wind and the descent flatten me

and now my muscles are green and yellow and red

       pain flavored jello

Caffe Puccini   Caffe Verdi   Caffe Trieste

       espresso         cappucino

    Chinatown   fresh fruit and vegetables

    the smell of dead animals "whole schools of fish,"

    bulging eyes, "gasping on counters" whispering

    unheard

    T'ai chi in the parks on the streets

    movement before sunrise speeding speeding into America

    Hong Kong Mutant flu Killer virus

    now after noon what do they think of me

    walking here what do I look like to them

      so different   so alike

                             I want love to have its way

    is their society still as closed as Bruce Lee found it

    in 1962 North Beach and Oakland and Sacramento

like Kudzu Hong Kong money buying out the Italians

                                                  buying San Francisco

    and searching for Lawrence Ferlinghetti

    I crawl through City Lights

    so many writers' writings

    and Lawrence Ferlinghetti is one

    and James Joyce is one

    and William Carlos Williams is one

    and William Butler Yeats is one

    and Walt Whitman is one

    and William Blake is one

    and Jack Kerouac  Allen Ginsberg  Diane di Prima  Amiri Baraka

        John Holmes  Herbert Huncke  Gregory Corso  Michael McClure

        Gary Snyder  Robert Creeley  Phillip Lamantia  William Burroughs

        Anne Waldman  Ed Sanders

        POMES PENYEACH

        POMES ALL SIZES

        "Street Poetry"

        Casting off "the anxiety of influence"

                    "the anxiety of authorship"

                    "Make IT New!"

        "First thought, best thought"

        "have an uninterrupted curiosity"

        "writing the mind"

        "poet get out of the

        inner aesthetic sanctum

        where you have too long

        been contemplating

        your complicated navel"

and as I search for Lawrence Ferlinghetti

        feed the cat and look at photo of Allen Ginsberg

                                          and Lorenzo swimming

           Julie

           why do men still drink wine

           and women still water

  Daniel Ortega's Minotaur keeps watchful eye over

   apartment stairs and Liberty's mask

    like a gargoyle

     guards his bedroom

      paintings and posters of readings round the world

       cover the walls

        TRAVELS IN AMERICA DESERTA on the shelf

         Alcatraz in the distance

         3rd World Voices monks Ernesto Cardinal  Nicanor Parra

         Daniel Berrigan  Thomas Merton pierce the world's terrors

            chanting

            Shelley's "Declaration of Rights"

                    "Government has no rights; it

                     is a delegation from several

                     individuals for the purpose of

                     securing their own."

and searching for Lawrence Ferlinghetti

I look in A CONEY ISLAND OF THE MIND and

                                         PICTURES OF THE GONE WORLD

               bearing gifts I come

               photos of his journey through Kentucky

               standing at Merton's grave  Literary Gethsemani

               memories of drinking Budweisers

               at The Doo Drop Inn

               "Nice people Dancing to Good Country Music"

           and I've come bearing gifts

               tapes of his reading in Louisville

                    jazz between poems

                                      silence between poems

           blank spaces on the walls between paintings

                          and My Old Kentucky Home

                          is still singing your song

and I'm searching for Lawrence Ferlinghetti

                               "the one who'll shake the ones unshaken

                                the fearless one

                                the one without bullshit"

      and walking out his front door

                          from Bolinas  from Lorenzo  from trees

                                                        and back roads

                              he arrives in an old white Toyota truck

                ascetic monk of North Beach

                          satirical wit  ironic humor

                              wisdom

                     southern hospitality in San Francisco, California

          handing Lawrence Ferlinghetti his keys at the end of our visit

                                shaking hands  saying thanks  homage

                      Super Shuttle to airport  Kentucky

        and searching for Lawrence Ferlinghetti

              on the plane I read from the book he signed

                              "Christ climbed down

                              from his bare tree

                              this year

                              and softly stole away into

                              some anonymous Mary's womb again

                              where in the darkest night

                              of everybody's anonymous soul

                              He awaits again

                              an unimaginable

                              and impossibly

                              Immaculate Reconception

                              the very craziest

                              of Second Comings."

 

                                   To Lawrence Ferlinghetti

 

                                         Pax Vobiscum

                                       Ron Whitehead

                                           on flight from San Francisco

                                             to Kentucky

                                                11:33PM

                                                   5/24/93

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:47:15 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

 

Ginsberg, Burroughs, Corso, McClure, di Prima, Rexroth, Cassady because they

were all friends and discussed their work...

 

Rimbaud (1960 or before)  wrote the poem "Rimbaud" in 1960, it's in "Scattered

Poems"

 

Proust, Samuel Johnson, Boswell, Dante, Cervantes, Hesse (Steppenwolf),

Nietzsche, R. L. Stevenson (Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde) because he mentions them in

"Big Sur"  (1962) (this may be a partial listing - haven't had a chance to go

through the entire book)

 

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Paul A. Maher Jr.

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:01 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

 

Maybe if we follow Bill Gargan's example and place a date and source for the

info we can accomplish our own research. Obviously I got a lot to catch up

on but most of this I knew off the top of my head. I would just add the name

to the bottom of the list with the appropriate source and name of

contributor if you'd like. Let's see what we can come up with. I will then

transfer the list to the web page with credit for the Beat-l. This will give

the list some publicity as I get a lot of people who visit who aren't here

on the list.

  I was thinking of starting the same kind of list with a chronological

order to Jack's road trips and persoanl residences. Paul..

>                ****************

>> 

>>>A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and there:

>>> 

>>>  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

>>>  Shakespeare - everything

>>>  Thomas Wolfe - everything

>>>  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

>>>  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

>>>  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

>>>  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment Plan,

>>>           Guignol's Band

>>>  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

>>>  Jack London

>>>  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

>>>  The Bible

>>>  Indian Scriptures

>>>  The Buddhist Bible

>>>  Ernest Hemingway

>>>  William Faulkner- Pylon

>>>  Thomas Mann

>>>  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

>>>  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

>>>  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

>>>  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

>>>  A number of Buddhist texts

>>>  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

>>>  Gogol - Dead Souls

>>>  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

>>>  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

>>>  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

>>>  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a

>Young Man

>>>  John Keats

>>>  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

>>>  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

>>>  Honore de Balzac

>>>  A Biography of George Washington

>>>  W.H. Auden

>>>  Ezra Pound

>>>  Francois Rabelais

>>>  William Saroyan

>>>  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

>>>  Arthur Rimbaud

>>>  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

>>>  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

>>>  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

>>>  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

>>>  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

>>>  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

>>>  Kafka - The Castle

>>>  Edgar Allan Poe

>>>  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

>>>  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

>>>  William Penn - Maxims

>>>  Greek Philosophy

>>>  The Shadow

>>>  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

>>>  Mark Twain

>>>  Yeats

>>>  Gertrude Stein

>>>  T.S. Eliot

>>>  Walt Whitman - Leaves of Grass

>    W.H. Auden

>    e.e. cummings

>    Emily Dickinson

>    Henry David Thoreau

>    Ralph Waldo Emerson

     Robert Frost (Sherri)

     42nd Parallel (Letter to Alfred Kazin) Bill Gargan

>>>  Now this does not mean that he was influenced by all this...he is simply

>>>documented in journals, letters, notebooks etc.in his own hand that he had

>read them. Some he didn't like, such as Gertrude Stein and T.S. Eliot. feel

>free to add to this list and I will post a final version on The Kerouac

>Quarterly Web

>>>Site and the quarterly. Thanks, Paul...

>>> 

>>>                 (courtesy of The Kerouac Quarterly)

>>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>>                                           Henry David Thoreau

>>> 

>> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>> 

>>    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

>>cease to be amused."

>> 

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:53:34 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

by the way, to any of you out there who have served this country in war -

thank you.  i'm glad you're still alive.

 

peace & roses,  sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:03:16 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Greatest Novels ...

 

for Bradbury - i think "Fahrenheit 451" and "The Illustrated Man" are greater

works, although both of those you mention are wonderful.  How about

"Foucault's Pendulum" by Eco?  "Ulysses" by Joyce?  we could go on and on.

problem is if we don't categorize this as 20th century  and American the list

could take up the entire space we have on the list server.

 

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Timothy Hoffman

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:13 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Greatest Novels ...

 

My picks for Greatest Novels (Great American or other). Please respond or

ignore at will.

 

On the Road

Doctor Sax              Jack Kerouac

 

Slaughterhouse Five

Breakfast of Champions  Kurt Vonnegut

 

Lord of the Rings               J.R.R. Tolkien

 

Something Wicked This Way Comes

Dandelion Wine          Ray Bradbury

 

The Stranger

The Plague              Albert Camus

 

The Book of Laughter and Forgetting

The Joke                Milan Kundera

 

The Tin Drum            Gunter Grass

 

Libra

Mao II                  Don Delillo

 

The Painted Bird                Jerzy Kozinski (sp)

 

Invisible Man           Ralph Ellison

 

Tough Guys Don't Dance  Norman Mailer

 

Woman in the Dunes      Kobo Abe

 

Botchan                 Natsume Soseki

 

The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

                        Mark Twain

 

The Atlas               William T. Vollmann

 

:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::

Timothy Hoffman

Komaki English Teaching Center (KETC)

Komaki Shiminkaikan, KETC

2-107 Komaki

Komaki, Aichi 485

work (0568) 76-0905

fax (0568) 77-8207

home (0568)72-3549

timothy@gol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:07:56 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac reading e.e.cummings

 

Antoine, thanks for these.  the second one is heartbreaking.

 

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Antoine Maloney

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:10 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Jack Kerouac reading e.e.cummings

 

Paul,

 

        That's great of you to do that. Bill's idea is also great...what a

project!

 

...and to all,

 

Seeing e.e.cummimgs on Jack's reading list forces me to put one of cummings'

most "beat" poems for everyone to comment on. I haven't ever heard him read,

but I would love to hear this as he would read it...(have readt it!) Anyone

ever hear any recordings of him?

 

        And after it two in honour of Remembrance day. Give these all a

chance...spare them your too quick delete key!

 

                        Antoine

 

        *****************

 

                                ....I love the rush at the end of this....

 

from "1 x 1" [one times one] (1944)

 

        pity this busy monster,manunkind,

 

        not.   Progress is a comfortable disease:

        your victim(death and life safely beyond)

 

        plays with the bigness of his littleness

        ---electrons deify one razorblade

        into a mountainrange;lenses extend

 

        unwish through curving wherewhen till unwish

        returns on its unself.

                                        A world of made

        is not a world of born--pity poor flesh

 

        and trees,poor stars and stones,but never this

        fine specimen of hypermagical

 

        ultraomnipotence.     We doctors know

 

        a hopeless case if--listen:there's a hell

        of a good universe next door;let's go

 

 

        *****************

 

                                Typed in on Remembrance day after standing

at the cenotaph at 11:00am

                                with men who were in the wars with my Dad,

my Granda, my Uncles....

 

from "is 5" (1926)

 

        look at this)

        a 75 done

        this nobody would

        have believed

        would they no

        kidding this was my particular

 

        pal

        funny aint

        it we was

        buddies

        i used to

 

        know

        him lift the

        poor cuss

        tenderly this side up handle

 

        with care

        fragile

        and send him home

 

        to his old mother in

        a new pine box

 

        (collect

 

                **************

 

                                His anti-war poems are weapons themselves!

Another....

 

from "1 x 1" [one times one] (1944)

 

        plato told

 

        him;he couldn't

        believe it(jesus

 

        told him;he

        wouldn't believe

        it)lao

 

        tsze

        certainly told

        him,and general

        (yes

 

        mam)

        sherman;

        and even

        (believe it

        or

 

        not)you

        told him;i told

        him;we told him

        (he didn't believe it,no

 

        sir)it took

        a nipponized bit of

        the old sixth

 

        avenue

        el;in the top of his head:to tell

 

        him

 

                                I can remeber as a kid (probably '52 - '53)

the big discussion when

                                a small toy birdcage - made in japan - broke

open and was revealed

                                to be made of a 'birdseye' pea can.......

 

                                read e.e.cummings

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:17:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Gregorio <Subterr7@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

 

For those who have read, and enjoyed, Vonnegut over the years it was a nice

"goodbye."  Yet, I would have preferred, and I think it would have been a

better book, if he would have written a book of essays or another type of

non-fiction.  Maybe an autobiography.

  Jack Gregorio

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:25:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Janelle wrote:

 

> speaking of, what did everyone who read Timequake think?

 

I'm reading "Timequake" right now, nearly through.  The review I had read

prior to picking up the book bitched about the fact that it's not a "real"

novel...that the plot was all but non-existent, and in fact the book

appeared to be ramblings and sketches and random sardonic musings...so, I

ask the reviewer, what's your point?  In fact, I'm enjoying the hell out of

"Timequake."  I can't remember the last time a book made me laugh out loud.

 Yes, it does have the air of an author's final major work about it (much

as "The Western Lands" did, in of course a very different way).  But I

think that the chance to be conscious that one is creating a final work is

rare indeed (given the unpredictability of life and fate's twists), and the

creator should enjoy and savor the opportunity, as should the observer.  So

I repeat what someone so aptly said earlier on this thread: Hooray for

Vonnegut!

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:27:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Alan Harrington

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Alan Harrington's "Secret Swinger" has popped up on the JK's Reading List

thread.  I've been looking for a copy for some time.  Anyone out there know

where I can find one?

 

Thanks,

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:36:47 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jym Mooney wrote:

> 

> Janelle wrote:

> 

> > speaking of, what did everyone who read Timequake think?

> 

> I'm reading "Timequake" right now, nearly through.  The review I had read

> prior to picking up the book bitched about the fact that it's not a "real"

> novel...that the plot was all but non-existent, and in fact the book

> appeared to be ramblings and sketches and random sardonic musings...so, I

> ask the reviewer, what's your point?  In fact, I'm enjoying the hell out of

> "Timequake."  I can't remember the last time a book made me laugh out loud.

>  Yes, it does have the air of an author's final major work about it (much

> as "The Western Lands" did, in of course a very different way).  But I

> think that the chance to be conscious that one is creating a final work is

> rare indeed (given the unpredictability of life and fate's twists), and the

> creator should enjoy and savor the opportunity, as should the observer.  So

> I repeat what someone so aptly said earlier on this thread: Hooray for

> Vonnegut!

> 

> Jym

 

i haven't read any Vonnegut yet but i have been to May Day parties at

his old house off Brown Street in Iowa City.

 

i wonder if they still have those parties.  you could really feel the

sensations there.  only place with more of those sensations was in

Burroughs house (and they were concentrated about 30 times as much

there).

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:45:21 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Alan Harrington

 

Jym,

 

Look for SECRET SWINGER on the web via WWW.BIBLIOFIND.COM or WWW.INTERLOC.COM

If they don't have it, put it on their "wish list" and someone will probably

find a copy. Good luck. Or maybe Jeffrey at Water Row has one.

 

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:51:39 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

 

i agree Jym.  Timequake (haven't finished it yet) is wonderful and i think the

perfect "Last Hurrah" before the curtain goes out.

 

ciao,  sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Jym Mooney

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 8:25 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

 

Janelle wrote:

 

> speaking of, what did everyone who read Timequake think?

 

I'm reading "Timequake" right now, nearly through.  The review I had read

prior to picking up the book bitched about the fact that it's not a "real"

novel...that the plot was all but non-existent, and in fact the book

appeared to be ramblings and sketches and random sardonic musings...so, I

ask the reviewer, what's your point?  In fact, I'm enjoying the hell out of

"Timequake."  I can't remember the last time a book made me laugh out loud.

 Yes, it does have the air of an author's final major work about it (much

as "The Western Lands" did, in of course a very different way).  But I

think that the chance to be conscious that one is creating a final work is

rare indeed (given the unpredictability of life and fate's twists), and the

creator should enjoy and savor the opportunity, as should the observer.  So

I repeat what someone so aptly said earlier on this thread: Hooray for

Vonnegut!

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:14:13 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      Ginsberg and Vonnegut

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

  I'm working on this compilation of criticisms (historical,

biographical, and literary) and reviews of a group of Allen Ginsberg

poems for which I have to write a 3 page opening essay. The title of

my anthology is "Love, Death, and the Teachings of Allen Ginsberg."

Does anyone have any suggestions of what audience to target in this

intro? Scholars? Students? Fellow poets and/or Beat Lovers?

 

  Also, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who loves Vonnegut.

I regret not discovering him sooner. Has anyone else heard that he'll

be teaching in the MFA creative writing program at Long Island Univ.

starting this summer? I'd like to make a pilgrimage to meet him,

seeing he's the last great living American Writer, in my opinion.

 

        Maggie

 

 

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:02:04 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Alan Harrington

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Jym,

> 

>Look for SECRET SWINGER on the web via WWW.BIBLIOFIND.COM or WWW.INTERLOC.COM

>If they don't have it, put it on their "wish list" and someone will probably

>find a copy. Good luck. Or maybe Jeffrey at Water Row has one.

> 

>Dave B.

 

Thank you so much for these urls. !!!!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:50:52 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      the greatest non-american novels)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Yes, let's not restrict ourselves to American novels. I'd be interested in

> hearing what others think are the greatest novels they've read, American or

> otherwise.

> 

 

 

 

the most powerful non-american novels i belive that i have ever read is

"the razor's edge" by w. somerset maugham and 'age of reason' by sartre.

powerful characters, real-life, existentialism....all the angst one

former grungekid could ever handle....

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:02:07 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Jack Kerouac's Personal Library

 

In making a list of Kerouac's reading material, here is information that will

prove helpful. The following books were in Kerouac's personal library when he

died.

All books were well-read and some had notations in Kerouac's hand. I have not

included books written by Jack or anthologies with contributions by Jack

although a fairly good representation of his own works were present also. The

following list was first compiled by me back in 1992 when I was hired to sell

these books to collectors. Please note this list copyright 1992 Water Row

Books.

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

 

******************************************************************************

********************

1. Dayton Allen. Why Not? With an introduction by Steve Allen. 1960.

2. David Aram. Vibrations. 1968.

3. A Portents Semina. Published as Portents #6. A tribute to Wallace Berman.

1967.

4. Ted Berrigan. Nimrod. Volume 4. Number 3. Spring 1960. Berrigan was

associate editor of this lit mag.

5. Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta. The Bhagavad Gita. A New Translation with

appreciations by Allen Ginsberg, Denise Levertov and Thomas Merton. 1968.

6. Robert Boles. The People One Knows. 1964.

7. Paul Bowles. A Hundred Camels in the Courtyard. 1962.

8. William Bronk. The World, The Wordless. 1964.

9. Charles Bukowski. Poems Written Before Jumping Out Of A 8 Story Window.

1968. (Note: Kerouac did not like Bukowski's work and vice versa -this copy

was sent to Kerouac by book's editor, Douglas Blazek)

10. Open Skull. Number 1. 1967. Edited by Doug Blazek. Contributors included

Bukowski, Charlie Plymell. (ditto to note in #9 above).

11. Ole Anthology edited by Doug Blazek. 1967. (double ditto!)

12. William Burroughs. The Ticket That Exploded. 1967.

13. William Burroughs. Naked Lunch. 1966 edition with Mass. Supreme Court

decision and Boston Trial excerpts.

14. Alan Casty and Donald Tighe. Staircase to Writing & Reading.

15. The Basilian Teacher. May 1964 issue. A Catholic Journal. This issue

contains an excerpt from Dharma Bums in an article by Leonard McGravey,

C.S.B.

16. The Last Catholic: A Tragicomedy by J. Fabian Daly. 1968.

17. Gina Germinara. Many Mansions. 1967. The Edgar Cayce story.

18. The Coercion Review. Number 2. Spring 1959. Lit mag sent to Kerouac while

in Northport.

19. Gregory Corso. The American Express. Complimentary copy of Corso's only

novel, sent to Jack by the publisher, Maurice Girodias.

20. Bruton Connors. Night Priest. 1967.

21. Robert Creeley. A Form of Women. 1959.

22. Robert Creeley. For Love: Poems 1950-1960.

23. Charles Dickens. The Pickwick Papers. 1960 edition.

24. Evergreen Review. Eleven issues dated 1958-1962.

25. Lawrence Ferlinghetti. Tenetative Description of a Dinner Given To

Promote the Impeachment of President Eisenhower. 1958.

26. Lawrence Ferlinghetti. Starting From San Francisco. 1961.

27. George Hunt. The Wars of the Iroquois. 1960. Given to Kerouac for Xmas by

Ferlinghetti and City Lights partner Shig.

28. City Lights Publication List. 1962.

29. Ferlinghetti. One Thousand Fearful Words For Fidel Castro. 1961.

30. Stanley Geist, editor. French Stories and Tales. 1956.

31. Victor Hugo. Ninety-Three. Introduction by Ann Rand. 1962.

32. Paul Gauguin. Noa Noa: A Journal of the South Seas. Translated from the

French. 1960.

33. Hans Jonas. The Gnostic Religion: The Message of the Alien God and the

Beginnings of Christianity.1967.  (A gift sent to Kerouac from Allen

Ginsberg).

34. Warner Literary Magazine. Spring 1959. Beat Poets Symposium Issue.

35. The San Francisco Earthquake. Summer/Fall 1968. Lit mag.

36. Pa'Lante: New Writing 1962. Magazine of militant poets.

37. Allen Ginsberg. The Moments Return. 1971. (Gift from Allen Ginsberg to

Stella Kerouac)

38. Hermann Hesse. Narcissus and Goldmund. 1968.

39. Dave Godfrey. Death Goes Better With Coca-Cola. 1967.

40. Joseph Heller. Catch-22. 1961.

41. Colonel A.C.M. Azoy. Patriot Battles. 1943.

42. George Cable. Creoles and Cajuns: Stories of Old Louisiana. 1959.

43. J. Wight Duff. A Literary History of Rome in the Silver Age. 1964.

44. Francis X. Talbot. Saint Among The Hurons: The Life of Jean de Brebeuf.

1956.

45. Joseph Campbell, editor. Pagan and Christian Mysteries. 1963.

46. Michael Grant, editor. Roman Readings. 1958.

47. Intrepid. June 1967. Lit Mag.

48. Jargon 31: 14 Poets, 1 Artist. 1958.

49. Climax. Number 1. 1955. Jazz review. Contains Lawrence Lipton piece.

50. LeRoi Jones. Blues People. 1963.

51. Ken Kesey. One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. 1962.

52. Seymour Krim. Views of a Nearsighted Cannoneer. 1968.

53. La Boheme. Vol 3, Number 11. (date?) A magazine of French-Canadian poets.

54. Robert Lax. The Circus of the Sun. 1961.

55. Robert Lax. Two Fables. 1961.

56. Timothy Leary. The Politics of Ecstasy. 1968.

57. Norman Mailer. Cannibals and Christians. 1966.

58. Norman Mailer. The Presidential Papers. 1963.

59. Norman Mailer. The Armies of the Night. 1968.

60. The Marquis de Sade. Three Complete Novels and other Writings. 1966.

61. Michael McClosky. Fuck You: A Volume of Short Stories. Self-published.

(date?)

62. Marshall McLuhan. Understanding Media. 1966.

63. Marshall McLuhan. The Gutenberg Galaxy. 1967.

64. Michael McClure. For Artaud. 1959.

65. Thomas Merton. Original Child Bomb -Points For Meditation to be Scratched

on the Walls of a Cave. Large poster.

66. Henry Miller. A Christmas Eve in the Villa Seurat. (German translation)

1960.

67. Henry Miller. The Colossus of Maroussi. (date?)

68. Henry Miller. The Intimate Henry Miller. 1959.

69. Henry Miller. The Air-Conditioned Nightmare. 1945,

70. Frank Morley. The Great North Road: Journey Into History. 1961.

71. Vladimir Nabokov. Lolita. 7th printing (date?)

72. Nomad. Number 7. Summer 1960. Lit Mag

73. Wolf Vostell. Miss Vietnam. 1968.

74. Dick Higgins. A Book About Love & War & Death. 1968.

75. Charles Olson. Projective Verse. 1959.

76. The Open Letter. Number 4. June 1966. Canadian lit Mag.

77. George Plimpton. Paper Lion. 1966. Inscribed by author to Kerouac.

78. Andre Maurors. Proust: A Biography. 1958.

79. Gary Snyder. A Range of Poems.1966.

80. Leo Tolstoy. War and Peace. (date?)

81. Tom Wolfe. The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test. 1968.

82. Charles Wright. The Dream Animal. 1968.

83. Yugen. Number 2. 1958. Lit Mag

84. Yugen. Number 3. 1958. Lit Mag  (edited by LeRoi Jones and Hetti Cohen)

 

COPYRIGHT 1992 WATER ROW BOOKS.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:21:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac reading e.e.cummings

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

recordings of e.e.cummings are incredible!

though i dont know how many exist, etc.

 

i have only personally heard the first two (non)lecture tapes from the

series "Six Nonlectures". these consist of cummings talking, reading

rather, these nonlectures. very slowly, articulate, refined bostonian?

harvard english. precise poetical useage of language. the first two

lectures tell of his early life, his parents, the first lecture about

his folks mostly is incredibly heartbraking. in the middle of his

autobiographical account he includes a few of his poems, such as the one

(cannot remeber fully) where the lines go something like: "as yes is to

if , love is to yes" then he reads some Wordsworth i believe. the second

Nonlecture tells more happier stories of early life, reads a few of his

springtime poems, concludes with some readings of shakespeare,

swinborne, ol' english chaucer, others, related to Spring theme.

 

if you like e.e. cummings then you should look for these tapes, i

borrowed from a friend who took em out of a library. certainly were

different than my expectations, poems seem more, i dont know, wild on

the page, more controled when read by cummings. the nonlectures are

available i believe in readable form perhaps published after perhaps

before the recordings.

 

from,

Eric

 

"He who claims that everything occurs by necessity has no complaint

against him who claims that everything does not occur by necessity. For

he [the second] makes the very claim by neceesity."  -- Epicurus, or one

of his followers

 

 

On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:07:56 UT Sherri

<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM> wrote:

 

> Antoine, thanks for these.  the second one is heartbreaking.

> 

> ciao, sherri

> 

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Antoine Maloney

> Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:10 PM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: Jack Kerouac reading e.e.cummings

> 

> Paul,

> 

>         That's great of you to do that. Bill's idea is also great...what a

> project!

> 

> ...and to all,

> 

> Seeing e.e.cummimgs on Jack's reading list forces me to put one of cummings'

> most "beat" poems for everyone to comment on. I haven't ever heard him read,

> but I would love to hear this as he would read it...(have readt it!) Anyone

> ever hear any recordings of him?

> 

>         And after it two in honour of Remembrance day. Give these all a

> chance...spare them your too quick delete key!

> 

>                         Antoine

> 

>         *****************

> 

>                                 ....I love the rush at the end of this....

> 

> from "1 x 1" [one times one] (1944)

> 

>         pity this busy monster,manunkind,

> 

>         not.   Progress is a comfortable disease:

>         your victim(death and life safely beyond)

> 

>         plays with the bigness of his littleness

>         ---electrons deify one razorblade

>         into a mountainrange;lenses extend

> 

>         unwish through curving wherewhen till unwish

>         returns on its unself.

>                                         A world of made

>         is not a world of born--pity poor flesh

> 

>         and trees,poor stars and stones,but never this

>         fine specimen of hypermagical

> 

>         ultraomnipotence.     We doctors know

> 

>         a hopeless case if--listen:there's a hell

>         of a good universe next door;let's go

> 

> 

>         *****************

> 

>                                 Typed in on Remembrance day after standing

> at the cenotaph at 11:00am

>                                 with men who were in the wars with my Dad,

> my Granda, my Uncles....

> 

> from "is 5" (1926)

> 

>         look at this)

>         a 75 done

>         this nobody would

>         have believed

>         would they no

>         kidding this was my particular

> 

>         pal

>         funny aint

>         it we was

>         buddies

>         i used to

> 

>         know

>         him lift the

>         poor cuss

>         tenderly this side up handle

> 

>         with care

>         fragile

>         and send him home

> 

>         to his old mother in

>         a new pine box

> 

>         (collect

> 

>                 **************

> 

>                                 His anti-war poems are weapons themselves!

> Another....

> 

> from "1 x 1" [one times one] (1944)

> 

>         plato told

> 

>         him;he couldn't

>         believe it(jesus

> 

>         told him;he

>         wouldn't believe

>         it)lao

> 

>         tsze

>         certainly told

>         him,and general

>         (yes

> 

>         mam)

>         sherman;

>         and even

>         (believe it

>         or

> 

>         not)you

>         told him;i told

>         him;we told him

>         (he didn't believe it,no

> 

>         sir)it took

>         a nipponized bit of

>         the old sixth

> 

>         avenue

>         el;in the top of his head:to tell

> 

>         him

> 

>                                 I can remeber as a kid (probably '52 - '53)

> the big discussion when

>                                 a small toy birdcage - made in japan - broke

> open and was revealed

>                                 to be made of a 'birdseye' pea can.......

> 

>                                 read e.e.cummings

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:59:33 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

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sherri- you forgot john clellon holmes, the guy who jack was friends

with in new york and talked about behind his back to cassady in a

letter. i know they shared their work when they were both starving

artists.

on the water row website, they have a book that kerouac wrote a review

for in the beginning in 1958. it's called River of Red Wine (sounds

like a title jk would like) by Jack Micheline.

 

Randall

 

> Ginsberg, Burroughs, Corso, McClure, di Prima, Rexroth, Cassady because they

> were all friends and discussed their work...

> 

> Rimbaud (1960 or before)  wrote the poem "Rimbaud" in 1960, it's in "Scattered

> Poems"

> 

> Proust, Samuel Johnson, Boswell, Dante, Cervantes, Hesse (Steppenwolf),

> Nietzsche, R. L. Stevenson (Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde) because he mentions them in

> "Big Sur"  (1962) (this may be a partial listing - haven't had a chance to go

> through the entire book)

> 

> sherri

> 

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Paul A. Maher Jr.

> Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:01 PM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

> 

> Maybe if we follow Bill Gargan's example and place a date and source for the

> info we can accomplish our own research. Obviously I got a lot to catch up

> on but most of this I knew off the top of my head. I would just add the name

> to the bottom of the list with the appropriate source and name of

> contributor if you'd like. Let's see what we can come up with. I will then

> transfer the list to the web page with credit for the Beat-l. This will give

> the list some publicity as I get a lot of people who visit who aren't here

> on the list.

>   I was thinking of starting the same kind of list with a chronological

> order to Jack's road trips and persoanl residences. Paul..

> >                ****************

> >>

> >>>A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and there:

> >>>

> >>>  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

> >>>  Shakespeare - everything

> >>>  Thomas Wolfe - everything

> >>>  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

> >>>  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

> >>>  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

> >>>  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment Plan,

> >>>           Guignol's Band

> >>>  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

> >>>  Jack London

> >>>  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

> >>>  The Bible

> >>>  Indian Scriptures

> >>>  The Buddhist Bible

> >>>  Ernest Hemingway

> >>>  William Faulkner- Pylon

> >>>  Thomas Mann

> >>>  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

> >>>  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

> >>>  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

> >>>  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

> >>>  A number of Buddhist texts

> >>>  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

> >>>  Gogol - Dead Souls

> >>>  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

> >>>  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

> >>>  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

> >>>  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a

> >Young Man

> >>>  John Keats

> >>>  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

> >>>  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

> >>>  Honore de Balzac

> >>>  A Biography of George Washington

> >>>  W.H. Auden

> >>>  Ezra Pound

> >>>  Francois Rabelais

> >>>  William Saroyan

> >>>  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

> >>>  Arthur Rimbaud

> >>>  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

> >>>  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

> >>>  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

> >>>  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

> >>>  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

> >>>  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

> >>>  Kafka - The Castle

> >>>  Edgar Allan Poe

> >>>  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

> >>>  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

> >>>  William Penn - Maxims

> >>>  Greek Philosophy

> >>>  The Shadow

> >>>  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

> >>>  Mark Twain

> >>>  Yeats

> >>>  Gertrude Stein

> >>>  T.S. Eliot

> >>>  Walt Whitman - Leaves of Grass

> >    W.H. Auden

> >    e.e. cummings

> >    Emily Dickinson

> >    Henry David Thoreau

> >    Ralph Waldo Emerson

>      Robert Frost (Sherri)

>      42nd Parallel (Letter to Alfred Kazin) Bill Gargan

> >>>  Now this does not mean that he was influenced by all this...he is simply

> >>>documented in journals, letters, notebooks etc.in his own hand that he had

> >read them. Some he didn't like, such as Gertrude Stein and T.S. Eliot. feel

> >free to add to this list and I will post a final version on The Kerouac

> >Quarterly Web

> >>>Site and the quarterly. Thanks, Paul...

> >>>

> >>>                 (courtesy of The Kerouac Quarterly)

> >>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

> >>>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> >>>

> >> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> >>

> >>    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> >>cease to be amused."

> >>

> >"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

> >                                           Henry David Thoreau

> >

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:08:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M .Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: BEAT GENERATION (fwd)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:55 PM 10/11/97 -0700, Derek wrote:

 

Not sure if this has been addressed (no pun

intended). {;^>

 

>i thought this might interest a few of you.

 

>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:20:09 -0500

>From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@bigmagic.com>

>Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

>Subject: BEAT GENERATION

> 

>Wish to invite all those interested in the Beat

>Generation to my website, where I am posting my

>unpublished book, THE BEAT PAPERS OF AL ARONOWITZ,

>which includes a commentary on the death of Allen

>Ginsberg, a discussion by Jack Kerouac and John

>Clellon Holmes on the origins of the term, BEAT

>GENERATION, an interview with Kerouac and his

>mother (annotated by Kerouac himself), an interview

>with Neal Casady in San Quentin Prison (also annotated

>by Kerouac) plus original 1959 interviews

>with other major BG figures.

 

>These are the applicable URLs:

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column1.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column21.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column22.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column23.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column24.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column25.html

 

Uh, got nowhere with these.  Try inserting /blackj/

in the URL's.  Like this.

 

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column1.html

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:24:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      suddenly one night. nb poem (nonbeat?)

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Pain

sometimes i am just embarassed for myself

i open and cavernous words come out

words, we wrap ourselves around words

we drink them and they are not water

we tease them letter by letter into our virginas

Like a tape left on at a party,

i hear myself braying praying crippled voice

a word will have a curve to it, a rise

the k and g pack a whallop

i sleep to the letters mmmms and o

string them into a necklace and african safaras march

you hear jack and allen and william

in weary wonderment of majestic life

a broad indian sweeps in the mad room

luther, lois, lana and martha prepare

clark to meet the wild card of nonsense.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 05:16:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Put your additions at the bottom of the list so that there will be some

organization to this. Thanks, P.

> 

>----------

>From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Paul A. Maher Jr.

>Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:01 PM

>To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:        Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

> 

>Maybe if we follow Bill Gargan's example and place a date and source for the

>info we can accomplish our own research. Obviously I got a lot to catch up

>on but most of this I knew off the top of my head. I would just add the name

>to the bottom of the list with the appropriate source and name of

>contributor if you'd like. Let's see what we can come up with. I will then

>transfer the list to the web page with credit for the Beat-l. This will give

>the list some publicity as I get a lot of people who visit who aren't here

>on the list.

>  I was thinking of starting the same kind of list with a chronological

>order to Jack's road trips and persoanl residences. Paul..

>>                ****************

>>> 

>>>>A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and there:

>>>> 

>>>>  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

>>>>  Shakespeare - everything

>>>>  Thomas Wolfe - everything

>>>>  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

>>>>  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

>>>>  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

>>>>  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment Plan,

>>>>           Guignol's Band

>>>>  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

>>>>  Jack London

>>>>  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

>>>>  The Bible

>>>>  Indian Scriptures

>>>>  The Buddhist Bible

>>>>  Ernest Hemingway

>>>>  William Faulkner- Pylon

>>>>  Thomas Mann

>>>>  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

>>>>  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

>>>>  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

>>>>  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

>>>>  A number of Buddhist texts

>>>>  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

>>>>  Gogol - Dead Souls

>>>>  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

>>>>  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

>>>>  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

>>>>  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a

>>Young Man

>>>>  John Keats

>>>>  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

>>>>  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

>>>>  Honore de Balzac

>>>>  A Biography of George Washington

>>>>  W.H. Auden

>>>>  Ezra Pound

>>>>  Francois Rabelais

>>>>  William Saroyan

>>>>  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

>>>>  Arthur Rimbaud

>>>>  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

>>>>  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

>>>>  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

>>>>  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

>>>>  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

>>>>  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

>>>>  Kafka - The Castle

>>>>  Edgar Allan Poe

>>>>  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

>>>>  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

>>>>  William Penn - Maxims

>>>>  Greek Philosophy

>>>>  The Shadow

>>>>  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

>>>>  Mark Twain

>>>>  Yeats

>>>>  Gertrude Stein

>>>>  T.S. Eliot

>>>>  Walt Whitman - Leaves of Grass

>>    W.H. Auden

>>    e.e. cummings

>>    Emily Dickinson

>>    Henry David Thoreau

>>    Ralph Waldo Emerson

>     Robert Frost (Sherri)

>     42nd Parallel (Letter to Alfred Kazin) Bill Gargan

>>>>  Now this does not mean that he was influenced by all this...he is simply

>>>>documented in journals, letters, notebooks etc.in his own hand that he had

>>read them. Some he didn't like, such as Gertrude Stein and T.S. Eliot. feel

>>free to add to this list and I will post a final version on The Kerouac

>>Quarterly Web

>>>>Site and the quarterly. Thanks, Paul...

>>>> 

>>>>                 (courtesy of The Kerouac Quarterly)

>>>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>>>                                           Henry David Thoreau

>>>> 

>>> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>>> 

>>>    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

>>>cease to be amused."

>>> 

>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                           Henry David Thoreau

>> 

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 05:21:48 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971112101608.006add28@pop.pipeline.com>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> Put your additions at the bottom of the list so that there will be some

> organization to this. Thanks, P.

 

> >>>>A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and there:

> >>>>

> >>>>  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

> >>>>  Shakespeare - everything

> >>>>  Thomas Wolfe - everything

> >>>>  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

> >>>>  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

> >>>>  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

> >>>>  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment Plan,

> >>>>           Guignol's Band

> >>>>  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

> >>>>  Jack London

> >>>>  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

> >>>>  The Bible

> >>>>  Indian Scriptures

> >>>>  The Buddhist Bible

> >>>>  Ernest Hemingway

> >>>>  William Faulkner- Pylon

> >>>>  Thomas Mann

> >>>>  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

> >>>>  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

> >>>>  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

> >>>>  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

> >>>>  A number of Buddhist texts

> >>>>  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

> >>>>  Gogol - Dead Souls

> >>>>  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

> >>>>  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

> >>>>  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

> >>>>  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a

> >>Young Man

> >>>>  John Keats

> >>>>  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

> >>>>  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

> >>>>  Honore de Balzac

> >>>>  A Biography of George Washington

> >>>>  W.H. Auden

> >>>>  Ezra Pound

> >>>>  Francois Rabelais

> >>>>  William Saroyan

> >>>>  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

> >>>>  Arthur Rimbaud

> >>>>  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

> >>>>  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

> >>>>  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

> >>>>  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

> >>>>  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

> >>>>  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

> >>>>  Kafka - The Castle

> >>>>  Edgar Allan Poe

> >>>>  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

> >>>>  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

> >>>>  William Penn - Maxims

> >>>>  Greek Philosophy

> >>>>  The Shadow

> >>>>  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

> >>>>  Mark Twain

> >>>>  Yeats

> >>>>  Gertrude Stein

> >>>>  T.S. Eliot

> >>>>  Walt Whitman - Leaves of Grass

> >>    W.H. Auden

> >>    e.e. cummings

> >>    Emily Dickinson

> >>    Henry David Thoreau

> >>    Ralph Waldo Emerson

> >     Robert Frost (Sherri)

> >     42nd Parallel (Letter to Alfred Kazin) Bill Gargan

 

Jean Genet  (Good Blonde & Others, p.90--I know I've seen other references

             but can't find them at the moment)

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 05:26:47 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> 

> Put your additions at the bottom of the list so that there will be some

> organization to this. Thanks, P.

> >

> >----------

> >From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Paul A. Maher Jr.

> >Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:01 PM

> >To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> >Subject:        Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

> >

> >Maybe if we follow Bill Gargan's example and place a date and source for the

> >info we can accomplish our own research. Obviously I got a lot to catch up

> >on but most of this I knew off the top of my head. I would just add the name

> >to the bottom of the list with the appropriate source and name of

> >contributor if you'd like. Let's see what we can come up with. I will then

> >transfer the list to the web page with credit for the Beat-l. This will give

> >the list some publicity as I get a lot of people who visit who aren't here

> >on the list.

> >  I was thinking of starting the same kind of list with a chronological

> >order to Jack's road trips and persoanl residences. Paul..

> >>                ****************

> >>>

> >>>>A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and there:

> >>>>

> >>>>  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

> >>>>  Shakespeare - everything

> >>>>  Thomas Wolfe - everything

> >>>>  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

> >>>>  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

> >>>>  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

> >>>>  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment Plan,

> >>>>           Guignol's Band

> >>>>  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

> >>>>  Jack London

> >>>>  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

> >>>>  The Bible

> >>>>  Indian Scriptures

 

interested in what specifically here.

 

> >>>>  The Buddhist Bible

> >>>>  Ernest Hemingway

> >>>>  William Faulkner- Pylon

> >>>>  Thomas Mann

> >>>>  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

> >>>>  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

> >>>>  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

> >>>>  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

> >>>>  A number of Buddhist texts

 

wondering about specifics

 

> >>>>  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

> >>>>  Gogol - Dead Souls

> >>>>  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

> >>>>  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

> >>>>  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

> >>>>  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a

> >>Young Man

> >>>>  John Keats

> >>>>  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

> >>>>  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

> >>>>  Honore de Balzac

> >>>>  A Biography of George Washington

> >>>>  W.H. Auden

> >>>>  Ezra Pound

> >>>>  Francois Rabelais

> >>>>  William Saroyan

> >>>>  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

> >>>>  Arthur Rimbaud

> >>>>  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

> >>>>  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

> >>>>  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

> >>>>  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

> >>>>  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

> >>>>  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

> >>>>  Kafka - The Castle

> >>>>  Edgar Allan Poe

> >>>>  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

> >>>>  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

> >>>>  William Penn - Maxims

> >>>>  Greek Philosophy

 

this seemed particularly vague to me - sort of like saying 20th century

novels.... :)

 

> >>>>  The Shadow

> >>>>  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

> >>>>  Mark Twain

> >>>>  Yeats

> >>>>  Gertrude Stein

> >>>>  T.S. Eliot

> >>>>  Walt Whitman - Leaves of Grass

> >>    W.H. Auden

> >>    e.e. cummings

> >>    Emily Dickinson

> >>    Henry David Thoreau

> >>    Ralph Waldo Emerson

> >     Robert Frost (Sherri)

> >     42nd Parallel (Letter to Alfred Kazin) Bill Gargan

 

goodness he read a lot.  i'm still wondering about his reading habits.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

 

> >>>>  Now this does not mean that he was influenced by all this...he is simply

> >>>>documented in journals, letters, notebooks etc.in his own hand that he had

> >>read them. Some he didn't like, such as Gertrude Stein and T.S. Eliot. feel

> >>free to add to this list and I will post a final version on The Kerouac

> >>Quarterly Web

> >>>>Site and the quarterly. Thanks, Paul...

> >>>>

> >>>>                 (courtesy of The Kerouac Quarterly)

> >>>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

> >>>>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> >>>>

> >>> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> >>>

> >>>    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> >>>cease to be amused."

> >>>

> >>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

> >>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> >>

> >"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

> >                                           Henry David Thoreau

> >

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:37:36 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: response to Bloom: exploding the Canon II

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

antoine and tyson: (and anyone else)

i have some of ron's latest poems someplace, smaller, more lyrical, and i

have I WILL NOT BOW DOWN in which that poem you typed in was published, in

that book my favorite poem is ALCHEMICAL RANT against time, would love to

type it in but my fingers are still sprained. i'll rummage about and see

what i have saved on disk.

saw ron in louisville at the bohemian list RANT: he read "peonies" which is

absolutely beautiful, lyrical poem. i should have that one too. oh me oh my

what a mess my desk is.

i think you can order I WILL NOT BOW DOWN through ron, if there are any

left. it's an aboslutley beautiful book, many color illustrations:

paintings by ferlinghetti and david minton.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:02:31 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      great american novel

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

_Venus on a half shell_ by kilgore trout.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:46:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac reading e.e.cummings

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Eric,

 

        Thanks very much Eric. That gives me the impetus to search these out

- perhaps at McGill's Library.

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:12:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: great american novel

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

This list is fascinating  and growing fatter, healthier. Wondering if

anyone has read and likes/hates/indifferent to E.L. Doctorow?  A few

titles: Daniel, Ragtime, Loon Lake, Worlds Fair, Billy Bathgate, The

Waterworks.  To me, his books evince poignant, lyrical, encyclopedic,

historical, American, tragic voice like no other.

 

Preston

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:18:39 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Jeff Taylor

Sent:   Wednesday, November 12, 1997 3:21 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Jack Kerouac's Partial Reading List

 

> Put your additions at the bottom of the list so that there will be some

> organization to this. Thanks, P.

 

> >>>>A Partial Reading list of Jack Kerouac that is documented here and

there:

> >>>>

> >>>>  Galsworthy: Forsyte Saga

> >>>>  Shakespeare - everything

> >>>>  Thomas Wolfe - everything

> >>>>  D.H. Lawrence - The Rainbow

> >>>>  William Blake - Marriage of Heaven and Hell

> >>>>  Oswald Spengler - The Decline of the West

> >>>>  Celine - Journey To the End of the Night, Death On the Installment

Plan,

> >>>>           Guignol's Band

> >>>>  Melville - Omoo, Typee, Billy Budd, Moby Dick, Encantandas

> >>>>  Jack London

> >>>>  Vladamir Nabokov - Lolita

> >>>>  The Bible

> >>>>  Indian Scriptures

> >>>>  The Buddhist Bible

> >>>>  Ernest Hemingway

> >>>>  William Faulkner- Pylon

> >>>>  Thomas Mann

> >>>>  Alain Fournier - Le Grand Meaulnes

> >>>>  Daniel Defoe - Robinson Crusoe

> >>>>  Edward Spenser - Complete Poems

> >>>>  Matthew Arnold - Study of Celtic Literature

> >>>>  A number of Buddhist texts

> >>>>  Fyodor Dostoevsky - probably everything

> >>>>  Gogol - Dead Souls

> >>>>  Theodore Dreiser - Sister Carrie

> >>>>  Lawrence Ferlinghetti

> >>>>  Gustave Flaubert - Salammbo

> >>>>  James Joyce - Ulysses, Finnehan's Wake, Portrait of the Artist As a

> >>Young Man

> >>>>  John Keats

> >>>>  Lin Yutang - Wisdom of China and India

> >>>>  Francis Parkman - The Oregon Trail

> >>>>  Honore de Balzac

> >>>>  A Biography of George Washington

> >>>>  W.H. Auden

> >>>>  Ezra Pound

> >>>>  Francois Rabelais

> >>>>  William Saroyan

> >>>>  Alan Harrington - The Secret Swinger

> >>>>  Arthur Rimbaud

> >>>>  The Tibetan Book of the Dead

> >>>>  John Reed - Ten Days That Shook the World

> >>>>  Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace

> >>>>  H.G. Wells - The Outline of History, The Science of Life

> >>>>  John Steinbeck - East of Eden

> >>>>  Giovanni Boccacio - The Decameron

> >>>>  Kafka - The Castle

> >>>>  Edgar Allan Poe

> >>>>  Jean Cocteau - Opium, The Blood of a Poet

> >>>>  Stendahl - The Red and the Black

> >>>>  William Penn - Maxims

> >>>>  Greek Philosophy

> >>>>  The Shadow

> >>>>  William Reich - The Function of the Orgasm

> >>>>  Mark Twain

> >>>>  Yeats

> >>>>  Gertrude Stein

> >>>>  T.S. Eliot

> >>>>  Walt Whitman - Leaves of Grass

> >>    W.H. Auden

> >>    e.e. cummings

> >>    Emily Dickinson

> >>    Henry David Thoreau

> >>    Ralph Waldo Emerson

> >     Robert Frost (Sherri)

> >     42nd Parallel (Letter to Alfred Kazin) Bill Gargan

 

Jean Genet  (Good Blonde & Others, p.90--I know I've seen other references

             but can't find them at the moment)

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

 

Ginsberg, Burroughs, Corso, McClure, di Prima, Rexroth, Cassady because they

were all friends and discussed their work...

 

Rimbaud (1960 or before)  wrote the poem "Rimbaud" in 1960, it's in "Scattered

Poems"

 

Proust, Samuel Johnson, Boswell, Dante, Cervantes, Hesse (Steppenwolf),

Nietzsche, R. L. Stevenson (Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde) because he mentions them in

"Big Sur"  (1962) (this may be a partial listing - haven't had a chance to go

through the entire book)

 

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:23:53 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: great american novel

In-Reply-To:  <199711121303.IAA19952@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

ah- and there is a great story behind this book!

you see kilgore trout is a character in vonnegut's novels ( mostly in

_breakfast of champions_) who writes 2nd rate scifi stories that only get

published in porn mags (if i remember correctly) with changed titles. Jose

Phillip Farmer read _breakfast of champions_ and enjoyed it so much that

he asked vonnegut if he could write a book BY "kilgore trout". which he

did and thus _venus on the half-shell_ was born. Farmer went ahead with

his plans and got the book published as by "kilgore trout". Vonnegut didnt

get a dime and the book went into several printing until vonnegt asked

that it be pulled (as far as i remember). if you would like another

AMAZING work w/ a vonnegut connection, check out _Eden Express_ by MArk

Vonnegut (kurt's son). AMAZING!

yrs

derek

 

On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> 

> _Venus on a half shell_ by kilgore trout.

> mc

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:40:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Farmer

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971112081958.65356A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

That Farmer's a crafty guy, it was he, of course, who wrote the ER/WS

Burroughs parody I talked about on the list a while ago...

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:01:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

In-Reply-To:  <971111231721_1246579019@mrin38>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I saw  Vonnegut at the Borders Grand Opening in NYC and I told him that I

found it hard to believe that it was his last book, that writing is an

urge and how can you stop having urges. All he said was that he was 75

years old and after that, I lost alittle respect for him.

 

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, John Gregorio wrote:

 

> For those who have read, and enjoyed, Vonnegut over the years it was a nice

> "goodbye."  Yet, I would have preferred, and I think it would have been a

> better book, if he would have written a book of essays or another type of

> non-fiction.  Maybe an autobiography.

>   Jack Gregorio

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:02:53 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: great american novel

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:23 AM 11/12/97 -0700, you wrote:

>ah- and there is a great story behind this book!

>you see kilgore trout is a character in vonnegut's novels ( mostly in

>_breakfast of champions_) who writes 2nd rate scifi stories that only get

>published in porn mags (if i remember correctly) with changed titles. Jose

>Phillip Farmer read _breakfast of champions_ and enjoyed it so much that

>he asked vonnegut if he could write a book BY "kilgore trout". which he

>did and thus _venus on the half-shell_ was born. Farmer went ahead with

>his plans and got the book published as by "kilgore trout". Vonnegut didnt

>get a dime and the book went into several printing until vonnegt asked

>that it be pulled (as far as i remember). if you would like another

>AMAZING work w/ a vonnegut connection, check out _Eden Express_ by MArk

>Vonnegut (kurt's son). AMAZING!

>yrs

>derek

 

Yeah, great fun book as I recall.  I also remember the back cover picture of

the author was of a dog wearing a gasmask.

 

And Eden Express is very good but it wil make you think you are going crazy

as well it is so well done.

 

 

> 

>On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

>> 

>> _Venus on a half shell_ by kilgore trout.

>> mc

>> 

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:27:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Old writers

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971112115835.2512B-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

 

> I saw  Vonnegut at the Borders Grand Opening in NYC and I told him that I

> found it hard to believe that it was his last book, that writing is an

> urge and how can you stop having urges. All he said was that he was 75

> years old and after that, I lost alittle respect for him.

 

WSB retired from the professional writing life, with the words, "Maybe I

just don't have anything left to say"; however he did continue writing in

personal journals. Actually, Burroughs' professional writing life ended

after The Western Lands, since everything else that came out afterwards

was either written before (ie. the reissue of Ghost of Chance) or just

assembled dream journals (ie. My Education). The Western Lands was

published when Burroughs was 73. I can't believe that Vonnegut is doing

nothing creatively, perhaps he is just no longer writing novels. There are

other things in life I suppose.

 

Just some meaningless parallels (unless Burroughs and Vonnegut were

separated at birth).

 

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:29:16 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      mimeograph suggestions...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

beat-l'ers

a freind of mine has "inherited" a mimeograph machine from a closing

greenpeace office , that we are planning to play with. unfortunately none

of us know how to use said machine and etc...

can anyone recommend a few books, instructions (the machine has none) or

suggestions on mimeograph machine possibilities and usage?

is this possible?

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:53:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: mimeograph suggestions...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971112102823.81580B-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Friends,

 

Call REFERENCE at your nearest library.

 

j grant

 

>beat-l'ers

>a freind of mine has "inherited" a mimeograph machine from a closing

>greenpeace office , that we are planning to play with. unfortunately none

>of us know how to use said machine and etc...

>can anyone recommend a few books, instructions (the machine has none) or

>suggestions on mimeograph machine possibilities and usage?

>is this possible?

>yrs

>derek

 

 

           Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                           FREE

                             at

                               BookZen

                          http://www.bookzen.com

                402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:57:55 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Old writers

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:27 PM 11/12/97 -0500, you wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> 

>> I saw  Vonnegut at the Borders Grand Opening in NYC and I told him that I

>> found it hard to believe that it was his last book, that writing is an

>> urge and how can you stop having urges. All he said was that he was 75

>> years old and after that, I lost alittle respect for him.

> 

 

I don't know, but I seem to remember Vonnegut stating that this was his last

book a few books ago.

 

Anyone else remember this?

 

 

>WSB retired from the professional writing life, with the words, "Maybe I

>just don't have anything left to say"; however he did continue writing in

>personal journals. Actually, Burroughs' professional writing life ended

>after The Western Lands, since everything else that came out afterwards

>was either written before (ie. the reissue of Ghost of Chance) or just

>assembled dream journals (ie. My Education). The Western Lands was

>published when Burroughs was 73. I can't believe that Vonnegut is doing

>nothing creatively, perhaps he is just no longer writing novels. There are

>other things in life I suppose.

> 

>Just some meaningless parallels (unless Burroughs and Vonnegut were

>separated at birth).

> 

>Cheers,

>Neil

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:03:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      did JK read....?

 

hi all,

i was just wondering if JK read any Henry Miller, he discusses a visit n BIG

SUR, so i'm assuming he did. if so does anybody know the particular novel?

Does this mean he could've read Anais Nin's diaries? maybe one of you can

answer.....

thanks,

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:16:35 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Everson and Dreiser

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Nancy's interaction with Vonnegut reminded me of the wonderful story

William Everson tells of meeting Theodore Dreiser.  Everson was in a

Conscientious Ojector camp in Waldport, Ore. during the War.  On

furlough he and another poet (James Harmon) went to SF by bus down the

coast.

 

"As we boarded the bus at Marshfield (JS--now Coos Bay) I noticed a man

who seemed familiar.  I said to myself ' That man looks like Theodore

Dreiser'.  Harmon said it couldn't be, but Jeffers had spoken of Dreiser

as a 'tough old mastadon,' and that's just the way he looked.  Hulking

shoulders. Slack jaws.  Strangely inattentive eyes that missed nothing.

Even in his phtographs his configuration was unmistakable.

 

. . .

 

At Gold Beach we pulled in for lunch.  By this time I was sure it was

Dreiser.  As Harmon and I got ready to sit down Harmon forgot about

lunch and followed the man into the lavatory.  He came out as if he had

found gold on that beach.  'It's him!' he exclamed excitedly.  'It's

Dreiser all right. Come on!

 

Even as I got up I had my misgivings but curiousity got the better of

judgement.  Dreiser was standing at the urinal relieving himself, and

not knowing what to else to do I began to talk.  I had never read any of

his books, so I began with us.  It was a fatal mistake.

 

'Mr. Dreiser,' I began,'we're two poets on furlough from a camp in

Waldport.  We are going down to San Francisco.  We hope to meet some of

the other writers there and renew our aquantance with the literary scene

. . .'

 

Dreiser looked at me and I suddently discovered I had nothing more to

say.  He slowly buttoned his fly and as he turned to wash his hands, he

said two words with extreme irony: 'So what!'

 

Then he started in.  Ripping a paper towel from the rack, he crumbled it

in those feasome hands and proceeded with contempt.  'There are

thousands of you.  You crawl about the country from conference to

literary conference.  You claim to be writers, but what do you ever

produce?  Not one of you will amount to a goddamn.  You have only the

itch to write, nothing more . . .the insatiable itch to express

yourself.  Everywhere I go I run into you, and I'm sick you you.  The

world is being torn apart in agony, crying out for the truth, the

terrible truth.  And you . . '.  He paused and his voice seemed suddenly

to grow weary. 'You have nothing to say.'

 

I turned to go.  Harmon was already gone.  Opening the door into the

restaurant, I looked back to let him know how sorry I was that I had

accosted him, but I couldn't open my mouth.  Then Dreiser stepped past

me, as if I had opened the door only for him.  For a moment the contempt

seemed to fade from his face and a kind of geniality gleamed there.

'Well,' he said, 'take it easy.  It lasts longer that way.' Then he was

gone.

 

Not really gone.  His seat was ahead of ours, and we had already noticed

that he was travelling with a young woman.  After Gold Beach, aware of

our presence behind him, he kept stiffly aloof, convrsing with her

circumspectly.  But far down the coast, at the end of a long hot

afternoon, when everyone was collapsed with fatigue, she could stand it

no longer.  Reaching out her hand she stroked with tender fondness the

balding head.  Dazed with exhaustion he accepted it gratefully until he

remembered us.  Suddenly thrashing his head like a mastodon caught

redhanded in a pterodactyl's nest he flung the hand from him.  She never

tried that again.

 

from Golden Gate, Interviews with Five Poets--david meltzer.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:21:43 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: mimeograph suggestions...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> can anyone recommend a few books, instructions (the machine has none) or

> suggestions on mimeograph machine possibilities and usage?

> is this possible?

 

What a relic!  I used to use the damn things but have mercifully

forgotten most of it.  Have no idea where to find books--or probably

even harder, supplies.  You need stencils and stuff.  After than you

just put in the stencil and crank away.  And of course you have to be a

very accurate typist and own a typewriter (remember those) because as I

recall it is almost impossible to correct. I most clearly remember the

smell of the fluid.  There were also "ditto's"  maybe you could find one

of those too!

 

J Stauffer

 

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:30:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M .Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: did JK read....?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:03 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Marlene wrote:

 

>i was just wondering if JK read any Henry Miller,

>he discusses a visit n BIG SUR, so i'm assuming he

>did. if so does anybody know the particular novel?

>Does this mean he could've read Anais Nin's diaries?

>maybe one of you can answer.....

 

I believe  _The Air-Conditioned Nightmare_ was

a big one.  At a reading in Toronto, last November, Ginsberg

talked about this.  He mentioned the above novel, and

said that they had heard a recording of Miller reading

and were very taken with it.

 

I believe there were a number of Miller novels in the

list Jeffrey posted.  I also remember reading

somewhere (_Memory Babe_?) that he met Anais Nin

and played one of his recordings for her.

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:41:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Mimeo Machine

 

Derek:

There's a fellow up in Vancouver who puts out a zine on a mimeograph machine.

The name of the zine is "Ralph: Coffee, Jazz, Poetry."

Contact Ralph Alfonso at www.bongobeat.com

He'll be glad to help you out...

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:19:47 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Nancy,

 

Hasn't the guy earned the right to do what he wants to!  Writing is an

urge, also damn hard work.  Seems to me he is entitled.  A lot of damn

nerve, I would say, to lose respect for the man on this point.  The

moral superiority the young feel toward the old is always a source of

amazement. Does he owe you a few more books?

 

J. Stauffer

 

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

I

> found it hard to believe that it was his last book, that writing is an

> urge and how can you stop having urges. All he said was that he was 75

> years old and after that, I lost alittle respect for him.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:17:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>well, i like my ocean idea as well, but now we have to classify it,

>and then name it, and then assign it a place in relation to all

>other oceans...does it ever stop?

 

     why, it's the best ocean of course, it has to be.. the new stuff

always is, and then it's replaced..

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:26:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Old writers

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

>>> I saw  Vonnegut at the Borders Grand Opening in NYC and I told him

>that I

>>> found it hard to believe that it was his last book, that writing is

>an

>>> urge and how can you stop having urges. All he said was that he was

>75

>>> years old and after that, I lost alittle respect for him.

 

    yeow! harshness!  i have to wonder if the ideal you're holding him

up to is a little unreal.  i'm sure he has his reasons, and just

because he says it's his last book doesn't mean it will be, nor does it

mean he's without the compulsion to write.  writing isn't all fun,

flowers, and sunny days, and neither is knowing you have the virus.  it

can be like drug or alcohol addiction, i can remember more than one

occasion in which i sorely needed to free myself from it, i wasn't able

to, and i enjoy writing, but just because you're forced to do something

by whatever cosmic branding iron's poking you in the ass, doesn't mean

you have to like it, you know?  it can be a little overwhelming

sometimes, needing to do something that badly but either being unable

to or simply not wanting to.  for my part i wish him luck in trying to

escape it, 'cause he's probably gonna need it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:56:45 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      9-9 by R.E.M. (fragment)

In-Reply-To:  <199711121757.JAA20874@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        9-9                                             by R.E.M.

 

        Steady repetition is a compulsion

        mutually reenforced.

        Now what does that mean?

        Is there a just contradiction?

        Nothing much.

        Now I lay me down to sleep,

        I pray the Lord my soul to keep.

        If I should die before I wake,

        I pray the Lord, hesitate.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:11:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Another Kerouac and The Great American novel

In-Reply-To:  <199711120033.QAA15314@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

11-11-97 "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU> wrote

 

>Philip K. Dick (good call by John)

> 

>Zora Neale Hurston (a totally amazing oeuvre from anthropology to fiction

>and it's all part of the same whole)

 

Freetings:

 

All the books mentioned deserve being on the list, but with the addition of

Hurston's name I thought I'd jump in with some I feel strongly about and

simply could not be without:

 

The Golden Bowl by Frderick Manfred

Daughter of Earth by Agnes Smedley

Yonnondio: From the Thirties by Tillie Olsen (also her Tell Me A Riddle)

The Dread Road, & The Girl by Meridel LeSueur (and Women in the Breadlines.

See Ripening:The Writings of Meridle LeSueur from Feminist Press for

samples of her work--shsort story Moonbeams will tear your heart out.)

To Make My Bread by Grace Lumpkin

The People From Heaven by John Sanford

Salome of the Tenements by Ansia Yezieska

 

Nelson Algren,

Jack Conroy,

Richard Wright,

Zona Gale,

T. Drieser.

 

I have an interesting and enlightening review of LeSueur's The Dread Road

along with commentary about LeSueur by poet Chuck Miller at:

 

http://www.bookzen.com/books/0000066.html (Links to review and analysis)

 

In this article and review, written shortly before LeSueur died, Miller wrote:

 

"Henry Miller, Keraouc and Bukowski are all dead. There is no one else left

of LeSueur's stature in American literature today. She stands alone, a

giant, waiting to be discovered by her own nation."

 

(Background story: Miller is teaching a couple of courses in Iowa City, on

his own. The university  will not touch him as a result of an incident that

happened in a math class he was taking.

 

(Aside: Miller has advanced degrees in math, chemistry, biology, English,

and physics but he rarely is emplyed. Mostly tutoring. I think most

teachers would love tobe able to be as outspoken about literature,poetry

and teaching as Miller is, but survival demands grater degrees of

conformity.)

 

So he's in this math calss--being taught by the head of the department--and

the Prof sees Chuck and makes a stupidly, disparaging remark about Chuck

and his poetry. Chuck stands and announces that he doesn't have a problem

with people being critical of his poetry, as long as they have some sense

of what creative writing is about. He walked out of the class, hired a

lawyer, sued the university and the prof--for all the obvious reasons--and

with the $15 thou he won he spent a year in the Scandinavial countries and

came back with another book of poems.

 

Miller's comments on the Iowa Writer's Workshop are scathing, articulate,

and very funny. He roams and reads--here and there. If you see a notice

he's worth a listen.)

 

Rushed. Excuse typos.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

 

 

           Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                           FREE

                             at

                               BookZen

                          http://www.bookzen.com

                402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:16:46 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Stauffer's 20th Century Top Hit List

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Read for your amusement or delete.  Some of my favorites, or books that

had a big impact for me.  I'm sure I have forgotten some of my own

greatest hits candidates at the moment. No pretense at comprehensivess

or giving equal weight to some

 

Virginia Woolf--Any of them

 

D.H. Lawrence--The Rainbow, Sons and Lovers

 

Thomas Pynchon--Gravity's Rainbow

 

Jack Kerouac--On the Road/ Big Sur

 

James Baldwin--Go Tell it On the Mountain, Another Country

 

Vladimir Nabokov--Lolita, Laughter in the Dark

 

Gabriel Garcia Maquez--Love in the Time of Cholera, Thousand Years of

Solitude

 

Willa Cather--Death Comes for the Archibishop

 

William Faukner--Absolom, Absolom

 

Malcolm Lowry--Under the Volcano

 

Graham Greene--The Power and the Glory and most the others

 

F. Scott Fitzgerald--Gatsby, Tender is the Night, Last Tycoon

 

John Dos Passos--USA

 

Thomas Wolfe--Look Homeward Angel, Of Time and the River

 

Robert Penn Warren--All the Kings Men

 

Ken Kesey--Sometimes a Great Notion

 

"Pauline Reage"--The Story of O

 

Henry Miller--Tropic of Cancer

 

Charles Plymell--Last of the Mocassins

 

Richard Brautigan--Confederate General, Trout Fishing in America

 

Christopher Isherwood--A Single Man

 

John Rechy--Numbers

 

Richard Farina-- Been Down so Long

 

Kingley Amis--Lucky Jim

 

J. P. Donleavy--The Ginger Man

 

WS Burroughs--Naked Lunch

 

Milan Kundera-- The Unbearable Lightness of Being, Eternity

 

John Updike--Couples, the Rabbit Series

 

Albert Camus--The Stranger

 

James Joyce--Ulysses, Finnegan's Wake

 

Koestler-- Darkness at Noon

 

Boris Pasternak--Dr. Zhivago

 

Jim Harrison--Dalva and a bunch of the novels, Julip particularly

 

Larry McMurtry--Leaving Cheyenne, All My Friends are Going to be

STrangers

 

Carlos Casteneda--The Don Juan fictions

 

Norman McLean--A River Runs through It

 

And of course for non fiction prose.

 

Freud--Civilization and it's Discontents

 

Reich--The Function of the Orgasm

 

Julian Jaynes--The Origin of Conciousness in the Bicameral Brain

 

 

This could go on and on

 

(It's interesting that we seem to start the 20th century after World War

I--otherwise I'd be including Henry James,  and others who wrote into

the century.)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:48:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Another Kerouac and The Great American novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>   If Jack kerouac's spirit has been reincarnated into another body

>(Jack himself believed in reincarnation (je pense)), what would he be

>doing in modern times?  Would he be a writer?  Would he be famous?

>Would

>he be a director?

 

     well, first off i think the question is somewhat, ummm, not really

lacking in validity but it's like asking people about theoretical

situations that won't happen.. i'm not quite able to say what i mean

without risking someone interpreting my comments offensively...

     if jack was reincarnated he's in me.. is that enough ego for you

all?! hehe.. and i'll tell you what he's doing, he's writing to you

right now..  i question that jack put a lot of faith in reincarnation,

i think it was more just a neat idea that he played with as an

essentially curious and romantic mind... i think he more fully admitted

the notion of the essential futility and nonexistence of cosmic

matters, not a nihilist mind you, but for jack i think there was a

difference between the nature of Being, and the romanticism of life,

there might not be a purpose or reality to anything, but we're "here"

doing whatever it is we do, so why not burn burn burn like fabulous

roman candles and be mad to be mad.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:42:08 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi James, Nancy and everybody

 

First I gotta thank you James for that great Dreiser interview by Everson in

the John. I laughed heartily. Nice comment about having nothing to say but

an urge to say it. Didn't stop Everson's urge to say what wonderful things

he had on his mind.

 

Secondly I want to tell you that at 72 I am not offended at all by Nancy's

spirited, affection filled honest remarks. Please Nancy, don't stop speaking

your feelings, I feel enriched by your honest spirited remarks. And no, this

is no payback because you vouched for me being a nice guy.

 

How would you feel when you discover that an idol of yours is drying up?

When you hear a pitiful, what you might have hoped would be a non-sequitur,

turns out to be the reason for don't expect nothing more from me no more.

Certainly, as you say, everyone is entitled to relax when they feel ready,

and not have to perform any longer. But the awe the respect that you felt

for the person's output, well that's bound to suffer some. I still respect

Joe Montana also.  But some of the respect that I felt for his awe inspiring

performance, well some of that was lost when he retired for me also.

 

When I was a young person, I could learn languages quickly. Today I don't

have the same respect for my ability to remember so much so well.

 

It's cool Nancy, us old timers can appreciate a little honesty too. Of

course, if you knew the man as a person, not just as a writer, you might

find reasons to respect him even more now than before, but I don't know the

man either.

 

Ciao. Reminds me, haven't heard from Rinaldo in awhile, that's not usual.

Hello Rinaldo

 

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Wednesday, November 12, 1997 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

 

 

>Nancy,

> 

>Hasn't the guy earned the right to do what he wants to!  Writing is an

>urge, also damn hard work.  Seems to me he is entitled.  A lot of damn

>nerve, I would say, to lose respect for the man on this point.  The

>moral superiority the young feel toward the old is always a source of

>amazement. Does he owe you a few more books?

> 

>J. Stauffer

> 

>Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

>I

>> found it hard to believe that it was his last book, that writing is an

>> urge and how can you stop having urges. All he said was that he was 75

>> years old and after that, I lost alittle respect for him.

>> 

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:50:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac's Personal Library

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:02 AM 11/12/97 -0500, you wrote:

>In making a list of Kerouac's reading material, here is information that will

>prove helpful. The following books were in Kerouac's personal library when he

>died.

>All books were well-read and some had notations in Kerouac's hand. I have not

>included books written by Jack or anthologies with contributions by Jack

>although a fairly good representation of his own works were present also. The

>following list was first compiled by me back in 1992 when I was hired to sell

>these books to collectors. Please note this list copyright 1992 Water Row

>Books.

>Jeffrey Weinberg

>Water Row Books

> 

>Jeff- I was wondering what books were actually sold off? Thanks, Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:58:56 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      FW: hooray for Vonnegut!

 

oops, this went directly to Leon - sorry for the dupe Leon!!  (wish we could

fix this reply inconsistency!!)

 

----------

Sent:   Wednesday, November 12, 1997 12:33 PM

To:     Leon Tabory

Subject:        RE: hooray for Vonnegut!

 

i don't know, Leon & Nancy...

 

my respect for an artist, performer, etc., is based on his/her work.  the

reasons for stopping may make me sad.  but the work is still the same work no

matter what.  better to quit before one starts producing sub-standard.  i

still have every bit of respect i ever had for Joe Montana or Joan Sutherland

or Kurt Vonnegut or whomever.  in fact, i admire people more for respecting

their art or craft and their audiences by not continuing when they no longer

feel they can be viable in their respective fields.

 

after all, would you want to remember Joe Montana as a broken down football

hero who lost his team's chance at the playoffs because he insisted on playing

another season when his body simply couldn't make the moves any more?  not i.

i want to remember him in his glory.

 

ciao, sherri

 

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Leon Tabory

Sent:   Wednesday, November 12, 1997 11:42 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

 

Hi James, Nancy and everybody

 

First I gotta thank you James for that great Dreiser interview by Everson in

the John. I laughed heartily. Nice comment about having nothing to say but

an urge to say it. Didn't stop Everson's urge to say what wonderful things

he had on his mind.

 

Secondly I want to tell you that at 72 I am not offended at all by Nancy's

spirited, affection filled honest remarks. Please Nancy, don't stop speaking

your feelings, I feel enriched by your honest spirited remarks. And no, this

is no payback because you vouched for me being a nice guy.

 

How would you feel when you discover that an idol of yours is drying up?

When you hear a pitiful, what you might have hoped would be a non-sequitur,

turns out to be the reason for don't expect nothing more from me no more.

Certainly, as you say, everyone is entitled to relax when they feel ready,

and not have to perform any longer. But the awe the respect that you felt

for the person's output, well that's bound to suffer some. I still respect

Joe Montana also.  But some of the respect that I felt for his awe inspiring

performance, well some of that was lost when he retired for me also.

 

When I was a young person, I could learn languages quickly. Today I don't

have the same respect for my ability to remember so much so well.

 

It's cool Nancy, us old timers can appreciate a little honesty too. Of

course, if you knew the man as a person, not just as a writer, you might

find reasons to respect him even more now than before, but I don't know the

man either.

 

Ciao. Reminds me, haven't heard from Rinaldo in awhile, that's not usual.

Hello Rinaldo

 

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Wednesday, November 12, 1997 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

 

 

>Nancy,

> 

>Hasn't the guy earned the right to do what he wants to!  Writing is an

>urge, also damn hard work.  Seems to me he is entitled.  A lot of damn

>nerve, I would say, to lose respect for the man on this point.  The

>moral superiority the young feel toward the old is always a source of

>amazement. Does he owe you a few more books?

> 

>J. Stauffer

> 

>Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

>I

>> found it hard to believe that it was his last book, that writing is an

>> urge and how can you stop having urges. All he said was that he was 75

>> years old and after that, I lost alittle respect for him.

>> 

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:04:01 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re the Great 20th C Novel at Sea

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

This talk about the GAN has been very interesting.

 

I especially enjoy the posts regarding the need to move the novel forward

and to cross formal categories.

 

Interesting all these lists, but I think they miss one point, namely that

there are fine novels out there which would never make such a list, because

of one flaw or another, but which contain nonetheless some very exciting

elements.

 

Livia by Lawrence Durrell is one, in which Durrell peoples the novel with

the characters of the novel the protagonist is writing, and they converse

with the writer about the novel, while in all other respects interacting in

his life exactly as would any flesh and blood person. An incredible

performance, but not a great novel.

 

Sorry that's not a Beat novel, but I really do prefer to read poetry, Beat

or otherwise, so I'm not the one to say a lot about novels.

 

While we're making lists, though, what about a list or discussion of books

which have crossed formal categories and which might be (or are) building

stones for the Great Ummerican Novel?

 

Trout Fishing in America would be one, in a way, for stealing a whole bag

of poetic tricks and because I love that used trout stream story.

 

There must be 100s, but I can't think of them today.

 

Regards,

 

Harold Rhenisch

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:05:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I thought it was great. . .!

 

Bruce

 

>speaking of, what did everyone who read Timequake think?

 

>Janelle

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:09:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: mimeograph suggestions...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> can anyone recommend a few books, instructions (the machine has none) or

> suggestions on mimeograph machine possibilities and usage?

> is this possible?

 

>What a relic!  I used to use the damn things but have mercifully

>forgotten most of it.  Have no idea where to find books--or probably

>even harder, supplies.  You need stencils and stuff.  After than you

>just put in the stencil and crank away.  And of course you have to be a

>very accurate typist and own a typewriter (remember those) because as I

>recall it is almost impossible to correct. I most clearly remember the

>smell of the fluid.  There were also "ditto's"  maybe you could find one

>of those too!

 

>J Stauffer

 

Aw, shucks, but you used to get very interesting effects when the periods

and commas typed right through the stencil, so that when they were

mimeographed they were hollow rings. Sometimes it looked very weird.

Sometimes it was appropriately ghostly.

 

It was a satisfying and solid process, that stencil-typing, I remember.

 

Harold Rhenisch

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:44:18 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: mimeograph suggestions...

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <3469F3B7.699@pacbell.net>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> What a relic!  I used to use the damn things but have mercifully

> forgotten most of it.

> recall it is almost impossible to correct. I most clearly remember the

> smell of the fluid.

 

You mean that purple ink that smelled so good? The smell of a freshly

printed "ditto" was the best thing about taking a test back in grade

school! Haven't smelled it in a long time. (Of course, it probably causes

cancer or something....)

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:51:13 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Another Kerouac and The Great American novel

In-Reply-To:  <msg1213606.thr-619ebe2b.55d4ae2@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >   If Jack kerouac's spirit has been reincarnated into another body

> >(Jack himself believed in reincarnation (je pense)), what would he be

> >doing in modern times?  Would he be a writer?  Would he be famous?

> >Would

> >he be a director?

> 

>      well, first off i think the question is somewhat, ummm, not really

> lacking in validity but it's like asking people about theoretical

> situations that won't happen...

 

But to reject the cogency of hypothetical questions is like saying, "What

if there were no hypothetical questions?"

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:07:02 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      many thanks to Paul Maher Re: "On the Road" ("Sulla strada")

              Cover italian poket edition   1967.

Comments: To: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10.02 11/11/97 -0500, Paul wrote:

>Hi Rinaldo - your cover you sent me is now posted. It can be found at:

> 

>  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

> 

> 

>                     Thanks! Paul of TKQ...

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

> 

Paul,

u are very nice to post the pic cover of "Sulla strada" (OTR in italian).

 

when i read JK for the first time, i read a book

so ''strange'' beautiful (it was 1969, and i was 19year old).

 

and in those times people have a love in reading book, i

remember kids on the train wagon reading beckett, ionesco,

sartre, etc. wonderful times...

 

i am happy, Paul, you have a look at this time that's gone

forever... the poket cover of the italian translation of OTR

perhaps isn't the best cover of OTR... but HERE in ITALY

during the '60s that's what young people had in their own

hands... and it's a nice... nice... Paul, grazie di cuore!

 

un cordiale saluto a tutti

da rinaldo.

from venice-mestre,italy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:01:17 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      I Will Not Bow

 

I Will Not Bow Down is a beautiful book.  I think Waterrow has copies.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:04:25 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      K's reading

 

Whoa!  hold everything!  I noticed "42nd Parallel"  "Letter to Alfred

Kazin" on the bottom of Paul's list.  I MADE THIS UP!  It was just an

example of how we should cite a source.  If you look at the original

post you may notice that I cited "Selected Letters v. 2" which, of

course, hasn't been published yet.  Sorry, if I caused any confusion.

Don't want any ghost entries creeping into our project this early.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:15:24 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         der doc <der_doc@ROCKETMAIL.COM>

Subject:      whaqt's going on here?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

    Hello!

 

I'm experiencing a little bit of trouble and maybe someone out there

can help...

Recently I used up all of the disk space allotted to me for my email.

This is mostly due to me not checking it for a loooooong time.

Anyway, to make a long story short, ever since my quota was exceeded,

I haven't been getting any email from the Beat-L list, even though

I've cleared enough disk space.  If anybody knows what the hell is

going on, please email ME and not Beat-L... I gotta have my Beat-L

back!!!

 

Thanks,

 

Dr. AJ Muszkiewicz

 

===

visit my web site, The Beat(en) Regeneration

(http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6131)

for info on the Beat, Beatnik and Neo-Beat subcultures

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:23:00 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: K's reading

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Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> Whoa!  hold everything!  I noticed "42nd Parallel"  "Letter to Alfred

> Kazin" on the bottom of Paul's list.  I MADE THIS UP!  It was just an

> example of how we should cite a source.  If you look at the original

> post you may notice that I cited "Selected Letters v. 2" which, of

> course, hasn't been published yet.  Sorry, if I caused any confusion.

> Don't want any ghost entries creeping into our project this early.

 

 

roflmao!!!!!

 

let's have a separate list of things that letters vol. 2 will reveal he

read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:50:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      beat courses

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     just a follow-up note to the discussion  about beat courses in

schools.. noticed in the schedule for next semester they have a

freshman level english topics course on the beats.. which will include

3 books about the beats, charters' being on of them, lots of beat

material, as well as a study of their influence on people like Bob

Dylan, etc.. the desc. says to be ready for lots of reading, writing,

performing, presenting, and rock music... looks cool...  will see if i

can get into it and let you all know how that scene goes...

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:44:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: K's reading

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At 07:04 PM 11/12/97 EST, you wrote:

>Whoa!  hold everything!  I noticed "42nd Parallel"  "Letter to Alfred

>Kazin" on the bottom of Paul's list.  I MADE THIS UP!  It was just an

>example of how we should cite a source.  If you look at the original

>post you may notice that I cited "Selected Letters v. 2" which, of

>course, hasn't been published yet.  Sorry, if I caused any confusion.

>Don't want any ghost entries creeping into our project this early.

> 

I took your word for it because of the source...you should be flattered. Paul:)

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:20:07 +0900

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: E.L. Doctorow

In-Reply-To:  <v01540b00b08f58189cd9@[146.201.2.118]>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Preston Whaley writes:

 

>This list is fascinating  and growing fatter, healthier. Wondering if

>anyone has read and likes/hates/indifferent to E.L. Doctorow?  A few

>titles: Daniel, Ragtime, Loon Lake, Worlds Fair, Billy Bathgate, The

>Waterworks.  To me, his books evince poignant, lyrical, encyclopedic,

>historical, American, tragic voice like no other.

> 

>Preston

 

I enjoyed reading Billy Bathgate very much, and wonder (a beat-related

wonder) how Doctorow's treatment of Dutch Shutlz compares with Burroughs'

"Last Words of Dutch Schultz" which I admit to only being familiar with

from the audio treatment contained on Burroughs' "Spare Ass Annie". Can

anyone out there tell me more?

 

 

:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::

Timothy Hoffman

Komaki English Teaching Center (KETC)

Komaki Shiminkaikan, KETC

2-107 Komaki

Komaki, Aichi 485

work (0568) 76-0905

fax (0568) 77-8207

home (0568)72-3549

timothy@gol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:42:08 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      LECTURE SERIES

 

I'm sponsoring a lecture series on the beats.  it will feature (if I can get

them) Gary Snyder, Larry Ferlinghetti, and Gary Snyder.  What do you guys

think about these choices.  Have you heard any of these writers speak(besides

Snyder)?

 

Thanks!!!!!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:02:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

Subject:      Lawrence Lipton

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I was wondering if anyone could suggest sources for some background info

on Lawrence Lipton.  I'd like to include him in my thesis, but other than

Holy Barbarians, I know nothing about him or his life.  If anyone could

direct me, I'd really appreciate it.

 

Thanks,

Tracy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:15:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lawrence Lipton

 

In a message dated 97-11-12 22:36:53 EST, you write:

 

<< I was wondering if anyone could suggest sources for some background info

 on Lawrence Lipton.  I'd like to include him in my thesis, but other than

 Holy Barbarians, I know nothing about him or his life.  If anyone could

 direct me, I'd really appreciate it.

  >>

 

Check out "Venice West" by John Maynard and Dictionary of Literary Biography.

Beats volume edited by Ann Charters (Gale Research Co.) - available at large

libraries...

Jeffrey

WRB

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:05:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat courses

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>From the Kerouac Cd -Rom:

 

 

  Notebook entry, 1940

  Required reading for J.K.

 

 1. Indian Scriptures

 2. Chinese Scriptures

 3. Old and New Testament

 4. Gibbon & Plutarch

 5. Homer (again)

 6. Shakespeare (again)

 7. Wolfe (always)

   Etc. Etc.

  "Finnegan's Wake"

  "Outline of History" again

  Thoreau and Emerson

  Joseph Conrad

  Proust's "Rememberance"

   Dante (again)

 

 And inscribed in his copy of Lolita is this:

 

 What decency really is, can never be outraged- This is a great book by the

world's most honest and smartest living writer. JK

 

 

       -The Kerouac Quarterly-

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:52:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Jon B. Pearlstone" <THYE@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: LECTURE SERIES

 

The lecture series sounds great---

 

Please tell me more about it--we are specialists in audio production and

distribution on public radio and in retail distribution and would be VERY

interested in professionally taping the series--or at the very least

attending.

 

Please contact me ASAP with more information.

 

Thank you

 

Sincerely,

 

Jon Pearlstone

Alternative Audio

 

THYE@AOL.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:56:23 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: LECTURE SERIES

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Shani,

 

You are having Gary twice?  He'd be fine.  Ferlinghetti also.

 

js

 

  it will feature (if I can get

> them) Gary Snyder, Larry Ferlinghetti, and Gary Snyder.  What do you guys

> think about these choices.  Have you heard any of these writers speak(besides

> Snyder)?

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:07:44 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Warning : long winded Re: FW: hooray for Vonnegut!

Content-Type: text/plain

 

>Date:         Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:58:56 UT

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

>Subject:      FW: hooray for Vonnegut!

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

Dear Sherri, James and everyone,

 

It may not seem that I am trying to stay back, but see how sore my

tongue is - it's from biting it so much. :-). I think it would be nice

if more people's voices were heard, and not just the few soloists

dominate so much of our symphony. But there are many factors afoot and

the few who are willing are enriching us so much by sharing with us

their thoughts, their ways, etc. etc.. You have been warned, you can

delete the coming windy reply. As long as I am not discouraging anyone

from bringing us their voices, hey we are here to exchange ideas, to

examine our ideas, to provoke some thought.

 

So here I am again. Sherri and James, I my be biased because i love your

contributions to us, I continue to learn so much from both of you. Maybe

that is the reason I can't find anything to disagree with about what you

respect in artist's work or their decisions not to. No question of any

kind in my mind that my respect for an artist, performer, etc., is based

on his/her work. I may wish to see more from them, but I don't presume

to be in a position to judge their decisions.

 

At the same time I don't see any reason to change my mind about anything

that Nancy or I felt here. I don't presume any rights to judge other

people's decisions, in their art or in their lives, as long as they are

not hurtful to others unfairly.  Being different people, and yes the

years that we have lived on this planet do make a difference in the

innocence and force of our impulses and, judgments. But I don't think

that Nancy said that she has such privileges either. Nothing was

mentioned about that to my knowledge.

 

Respect belongs to the person who feels it, and different people respect

different things. Nancy, was not speaking about changing her evaluations

of a work of art because the artist went on to disappoint

her. She did not assert any rights to alter the artist's decision.

She had an emotional gut reaction to the response she got from Vonnegut.

She is just as entitled to her response to the great artist, as he is

entitled to exercise his responsiblity to make decisions that he will

have to live with, and that others never know as much about as he does.

By giving to us he did not obligate himself to give up his life.

 

The only arguable questions here are whether Nancy had a right to react

negatively to the great man's response. Whether she is obligated to keep

up her respect of the author as much as she respected him before. No

question in my mind that not only does she have the right to react as

she does, I congratulate her and thank her for sharing with us the

genuine reaction that she did have.

 

I respect a person who maintains friendliness and responsiveness,

whatever their artistic accomplishments are. If they show a lack of

friendliness, respect for their audience, I can't respect them for that.

Not to take any of their rights away, or the respect that their work

merits.

 

Nancy only said that she lost a little of her respect for the man, not

his works, after he gave what to her seemed a not sufficiently adequate

response.

 

I agree with Nancy that age alone does not really describe a reason.

Some people stay active and healthy and interested and productive in

their eighties and beyond. Some are happier to retire at a younger age

when they can still anjoy themselves, they feel. They all have a right

to explore how well their decisions work for them. It is their business.

It is their only life.

 

Their fans have a right to ask the questions. They don't have an

obligation to respect reluctance to reply. Is it health, is it loss of

interest, is it loss of capacity, is it time for a change, those ar all

interesting questions, that I would expect to be addressed by someone

who had respect for me as a client and my question. We would hope to

learn about from the people who tried to talk to us a lot and are

stopping. Was it hard for him to answer? I would respect him more if he

said "This is hard for me to answer". I reserve the right to respect

more the artist who bothers to offer answers after spending a lifetime

looking for an audience to talk to.

 

It is easy for elders to disrespect the younger ones. The elders who

have aquired years of experience which is weighty but can be very very

wrong also. Personally I think that quite possibly Vonnegut dismissed

another young person's question, the way some of us dismiss the ways of

the "x-generation". Quite the same way that Dreiser unfairly dismissed

Everson and all the young aspiring writers. I can respect Dreiser's work

and not respect his rude unfair dismissing attitude toward young

aspiring authors.

 

If you have a question of the "ravages of age" that you should expect, I

can not talk for 75 year olds or for other people of any age, but I can

tell you from personal experience, that a life full of hardships and

stresses, still did not leave me impaired at 72 to any appreciable

extent. My body has developed its share of wrinkles, my muscles are not

as toned as they were in my youth, but they can carry out everything

that I ask of them, I have a strong appetite, sleep well, like to do my

work, keep taking courses in school for my continued enjoyment of

discovery, and am opening up new horizons of interest in literature and

writing. I have not been that enthused about writing , like this post,

in my younger years. Should I expect then that at 75 my urges and

activities will be curtailed or shifted? Maybe. Maybe not. Kurt chose

not to enlighten me about that. Whether you want to respect it or

consider it irrelevant is totally up to you. I don't blame yo Nancy for

feeling offended at the offhand dismissal of your question and statement

of love for Kurt's work that was implicit in it.

 

leon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The reasons for her reactions are interesting. They are genuine.

She felt disappointed in a man who uses his age, 75, as a reason. Not

health. Not other factors that affect different people differently as

they grow older. Just age. He was not forthcoming with a fuller

explanation. Does a fan have any rights? No. But. Fans feelings are

important and have their legitimate validity as well. For example a

brilliant writer, who seeks out an audience to listen out to his/her

beautiful thoughts, has a right to say I don't give a damn what you

think aboput me. Readers have a right to respect or not to respect the

writer.

 

 

 

said that she was disappointed

>reasons for stopping may make me sad.  but the work is still the same

work no

>matter what.  better to quit before one starts producing sub-standard.

i

>still have every bit of respect i ever had for Joe Montana or Joan

Sutherland

>or Kurt Vonnegut or whomever.  in fact, i admire people more for

respecting

>their art or craft and their audiences by not continuing when they no

longer

>feel they can be viable in their respective fields.

> 

>after all, would you want to remember Joe Montana as a broken down

football

>hero who lost his team's chance at the playoffs because he insisted on

playing

>another season when his body simply couldn't make the moves any more?

not i.

>i want to remember him in his glory.

> 

>ciao, sherri

> 

> 

>----------

>From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Leon Tabory

>Sent:   Wednesday, November 12, 1997 11:42 AM

>To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:        Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

> 

>Hi James, Nancy and everybody

> 

>First I gotta thank you James for that great Dreiser interview by

Everson in

>the John. I laughed heartily. Nice comment about having nothing to say

but

>an urge to say it. Didn't stop Everson's urge to say what wonderful

things

>he had on his mind.

> 

>Secondly I want to tell you that at 72 I am not offended at all by

Nancy's

>spirited, affection filled honest remarks. Please Nancy, don't stop

speaking

>your feelings, I feel enriched by your honest spirited remarks. And no,

this

>is no payback because you vouched for me being a nice guy.

> 

>How would you feel when you discover that an idol of yours is drying

up?

>When you hear a pitiful, what you might have hoped would be a

non-sequitur,

>turns out to be the reason for don't expect nothing more from me no

more.

>Certainly, as you say, everyone is entitled to relax when they feel

ready,

>and not have to perform any longer. But the awe the respect that you

felt

>for the person's output, well that's bound to suffer some. I still

respect

>Joe Montana also.  But some of the respect that I felt for his awe

inspiring

>performance, well some of that was lost when he retired for me also.

> 

>When I was a young person, I could learn languages quickly. Today I

don't

>have the same respect for my ability to remember so much so well.

> 

>It's cool Nancy, us old timers can appreciate a little honesty too. Of

>course, if you knew the man as a person, not just as a writer, you

might

>find reasons to respect him even more now than before, but I don't know

the

>man either.

> 

>Ciao. Reminds me, haven't heard from Rinaldo in awhile, that's not

usual.

>Hello Rinaldo

> 

>leon

>-----Original Message-----

>From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Date: Wednesday, November 12, 1997 10:41 AM

>Subject: Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

> 

> 

>>Nancy,

>> 

>>Hasn't the guy earned the right to do what he wants to!  Writing is an

>>urge, also damn hard work.  Seems to me he is entitled.  A lot of damn

>>nerve, I would say, to lose respect for the man on this point.  The

>>moral superiority the young feel toward the old is always a source of

>>amazement. Does he owe you a few more books?

>> 

>>J. Stauffer

>> 

>>Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

>>I

>>> found it hard to believe that it was his last book, that writing is

an

>>> urge and how can you stop having urges. All he said was that he was

75

>>> years old and after that, I lost alittle respect for him.

>>> 

>>.-

>> 

>.-

> 

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:46:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      GAN

 

When I read Kerouac, I want to write.

 

When I read Vonnegut, I want to read.

 

But the best book for me is

Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole.

A#1

 

so it goes, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:46:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Beat and Kerouac books for sale

 

Hello,

 

If you are interested in a short list of Kerouac and beat books for sale

(most are collectible) please e mail me and I will send you the list.

 

thanks

Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:11:53 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:13 PM 11/8/97 EST, you wrote:

>On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:41:37 -0500 Dennis Cardwell said:

>>Thanks, Donahue!  Post-modernism leaves us older folks feeling as if our

>>world is already gone.  The essayists who get such short shrift today are

>>indeed carrying on a tradition begun far before the beats, but not ignored by

>>them.  The Best American Essays series is outstanding with a different editor

>>each year, the newest 1997 is now available in paperback.   Haven't dipped

>>into it yet, but I know much joy and enlightenment awaits.  I usually read

>>the BAE series in order of essay length, shortest to longest, and quit when I

>>realize an essay is out of my interest area, skip to the next.  Poetic

>>indeed.  Most of these writers are true craftsmen(persons) using words with

>>the precision and sure skill expected of brain surgeons.  Other such

>>anthologies are available in big book stores.   EVERYONE SHOULD READ jOSEPH

>>MITCHELL's Up In the Old Hotel, if only for the major league, major lead

>>essay on McSorley's.  Kisses, starfishes, and knishes! DCard

> 

> 

> I second this recommendation:  Mitchell's book is wonderful.

> 

> 

Many of us seem to read the same stuff.  Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:36:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: beat courses

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971113060502.0069a754@pop.pipeline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

 

> >From the Kerouac Cd -Rom:

 

>  And inscribed in his copy of Lolita is this:

> 

>  What decency really is, can never be outraged- This is a great book by the

> world's most honest and smartest living writer. JK

 

Ahh, I agree almost completely (I'd call Burroughs the most honest). Funny

though, I always thought Lolita paled in comparison with Bend Sinister,

Pnin, and Pale Fire. It's just the one that produced the most controversy.

Pnin should be required reading for any faculty or student involved in the

university game. Does Nabokov appear on many American Lit syllabi? I

haven't seen him listed for courses in and around my school.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:56:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: LECTURE SERIES

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I don't know how keen Ferl. and Snyder would be to lecture but I bet they's

rather read, and they're readings are great from what I have heard

personally and from others.  David Meltzer, Steven Watson, and  Rebecca

solnit lectured well at the Beats at de Young exhibition last year in S.F.

Meltzer didn't really lecture but participated in a panel; he was eloquent

and seems to have thought alot about the Beats and especially the influence

of their legacy.  For what it's worth,

 

Preston

 

>I'm sponsoring a lecture series on the beats.  it will feature (if I can get

>them) Gary Snyder, Larry Ferlinghetti, and Gary Snyder.  What do you guys

>think about these choices.  Have you heard any of these writers speak(besides

>Snyder)?

> 

>Thanks!!!!!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:57:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         CARL PORTER <CPORTER@WEBER.EDU>

Subject:      Beat and Kerouac books for sale -Reply

Comments: To: GYENIS@AOL.COM

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Attila

 

Please send me a list of the Kerouac books.

 

carl

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:08:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: E.L. Doctorow

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>Preston Whaley writes:

> 

>>This list is fascinating  and growing fatter, healthier. Wondering if

>>anyone has read and likes/hates/indifferent to E.L. Doctorow?  A few

>>titles: Daniel, Ragtime, Loon Lake, Worlds Fair, Billy Bathgate, The

>>Waterworks.  To me, his books evince poignant, lyrical, encyclopedic,

>>historical, American, tragic voice like no other.

>> 

>>Preston

> 

>I enjoyed reading Billy Bathgate very much, and wonder (a beat-related

>wonder) how Doctorow's treatment of Dutch Shutlz compares with Burroughs'

>"Last Words of Dutch Schultz" which I admit to only being familiar with

>from the audio treatment contained on Burroughs' "Spare Ass Annie". Can

>anyone out there tell me more?

> 

> 

>:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::

>Timothy Hoffman

>Komaki English Teaching Center (KETC)

>Komaki Shiminkaikan, KETC

>2-107 Komaki

>Komaki, Aichi 485

>work (0568) 76-0905

>fax (0568) 77-8207

>home (0568)72-3549

>timothy@gol.com

 

 

Hm,

 

interesting point. haven't read or heard the Burr.'s piece but will.

Several months ago the tv program -- is it  "Biography" ? --  presented

Schulz as ambitious, charming, and arbitrarily murderous.

 

Preston

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:43:00 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: LECTURE SERIES

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:42:08 UT from

              <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

Great choices!  Hope you can get them.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:44:51 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Lawrence Lipton

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:02:03 -0500 from

              <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

 

Take a look at John Maynard's "Venice West." (1991).  Also check the

entry in the Dictionary of Literary Biography, v. 16 "The Beats" if you

haven't done so already.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:50:35 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: LECTURE SERIES

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711130256040715@classic.msn.com> from "Shani

              St.John" at Nov 12, 97 02:42:08 am

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> I'm sponsoring a lecture series on the beats.  it will feature (if I can get

> them) Gary Snyder, Larry Ferlinghetti, and Gary Snyder.  What do you guys

 

You may want to also consider Larry Ferlinghetti and Gary Snyder, just to

round it out.

 

Sorry!  Just kidding.  How about Gregory Corso, David Amram, and to

bring you into the 90's, Ron Whitehead?  Also maybe Gregory Corso.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                    |

|                                                     |

|     Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|      (the beat literature web site)                 |

|                                                     |

|          "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"       |

|            (a real book, like on paper)             |

|               also at http://coffeehousebook.com    |

|                                                     |

|                   *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

|                                                     |

|        "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |

|                                       -- Ric Ocasek |

-------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:39:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lawrence Lipton

 

Find "Venice West" by John Arthur Maynard, published about 5 years ago (I

think Rutgers Univ. press, but I may be wrong on that) a GREAT book about

Lipton and the Venice/LA Beat Scene in the 50's.  Probably the best

retrospective on the Beat Era - also interesting because it focuses on beats

besides the "big three".

 

John is a sometime contributor to this list, are you lurking out there?

 

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:17:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

In-Reply-To:  <3463D5DC.57BF@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Leon Tabory wrote:

 

>>  Even as Kerouac's biographer our own Gey

>> Nicosia likes to point out about Paul, what do you expect from a man who is

>> a convicted criminal, felon? Don't mean to fan the flames and I am not

>> saying it with any ill feeling toward Nicosia, I understand that anything

>> that helps undermine the dredibility of an opponent is to be used in serious

>> battle.

 

By the time Nicosia had mentioned Paul's criminal record, Paul had said

things about Nicosia that were not true. Nicosia was simply pointing out

that Paul's credibility today is not significantly better than it was back

then. Paul's doing, not Nicosia's.

 

Just because a person has done a little time doesn't mean they cannot be

trusted. But when an excon slanders and lies about a person whose

reputation is untarnished then that excon has to expect a little truth in

return. It's something SOME excons learn to live with.

 

I have never distrusted Paul because he's an ex-con, but I distrust him and

will never accept him at his word after what he has said about Gerry

Nicosia.

 

j grant

 

    Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

        FREE at BookZen  http://www.bookzen.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:45:41 -0800

Reply-To:     jmaynard@csubak.edu

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Arthur Maynard <John_Maynard@FIRSTCLASS1.CSUBAK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Lawrence Lipton

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Howard Park wrote:

 

> Find "Venice West" by John Arthur Maynard, published about 5 years ago (I

> think Rutgers Univ. press, but I may be wrong on that) a GREAT book about

> Lipton and the Venice/LA Beat Scene in the 50's.  Probably the best

> retrospective on the Beat Era - also interesting because it focuses on beats

> besides the "big three".

> 

> John is a sometime contributor to this list, are you lurking out there?

> 

> Howard Park

 

Yup.  Thanks for the kind words.

 

BTW, for those interested in the Venice people, the collected poems of Stuart

Perkoff are supposed to be out soon.  There is also a Lipton autobiography that

is ostensibly ready to run, but I wouldn't bet the farm that it actually will.

 

jm

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:33:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      1st & last response to Grant's attempt to start a flame war.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Who's an ex-con? is a misdemeanor offense a convict? And specify if you can

the untruths I have laid on Mr. Nicosia, who, as far as I'm concerned I have

made clear that I am not interested in resorting to commenting upon this

issue with any longer. I stole books as a young man...about eight years ago.

I have regretted it ever since. Sine then I have graduated from college with

a 3.8 GPA. I am Honorably Discharged from the U.S. military with a Good

Conduct Award and a Sea Service Ribbon for duty in the Persian Gulf.I have

written a 500+ page book on Jack Kerouac and Lowell among other things.

What, may I ask, is your background Mr. Grant? Besides being a puppet for

your benefactor and who only pledges to accomplish great things behind a web

site decorated with lies and adorned with slander. Are you telling me you

have a spotless record? Now I could care less how you percieve me and my

credibility becasue you do not matter to me. What matters is how you are

trying to perceive yourself to others on this list....you are trying to

start another flame war which I won't be provoked into again. I have

written, on a number of occasions, that I respect Mr. Nicosia's work on his

book. I have made critical commentary on what I think is wrong with the

book. He is free to do the same with mine when it is published. I have

commented on some things that were said by he about certain aspects of his

lawsuit. As long as I am not slandering or committing libel, that is my

priviledge.What have you done for this list except to echo what was fed to

you and pretended you were in a position to make intelligent commentary

about it. As far as I can see, your testament to all this is a mouldering

slug who likes to break the peace and calm of this list by bringing up past

issues. I'm an ex-con? If it was true so what? I stole library books. Jack

Kerouac stole the Buddhist Bible from the New York Public Library. Huncke

stole coats and Neal Cassady stole cars. Am I not in good company with the

subject matter? Take a good long look at your pathetic grimacing visage and

comment to us on that...that is the issue here, I have plainly criticized

and made clear what I have done and if people really want to know then by

all means charge to Mr. Grant's web site, it is the doorstop to lies

negativity for cyberspace. Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:35:28 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

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-----Original Message-----

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

To: jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Date: Thursday, November 13, 1997 10:33 AM

Subject: Re: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

 

>Hi Joe,

>-----Original Message-----

>From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Date: Thursday, November 13, 1997 9:11 AM

>Subject: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

> 

> 

> 

>>Just because a person has done a little time doesn't mean they cannot be

>>trusted. But when an excon slanders and lies about a person whose

>>reputation is untarnished then that excon has to expect a little truth in

>>return. It's something SOME excons learn to live with.

> 

>Hi Joe,

>No flames, no ill feelings, just would like some of you Beat-L to know that

>this here ex-convict, who done a lot of time, not just a little, still

don't

>feel that this makes me fair game, what do you expect, learn to live with

>it, you is a guy with a tarnished reputation.

> 

>Quite the contrary Joe. I feel proud of my past. My ex-convict status is a

>badge of honor in my own mind, and in the mind of my friends, including my

>children, I might add. Including a former Parole Officer who still

considers

>himself a friend and keeps my picture on his office wall.

> 

>What some folks make of it, or what they make out of other aspects of

>myself, ain't much of my reality. I am not saying that it doesn't bother me

>when people are condemned by some whose values are quite different than

>their own. Of course it bothers me, but if you think that their tags as

>ex-con or sinner or evil-doer stick to my skin, you are quite a bit

>mistaken. The tarnish of my reputation is of their own making and stays in

>their books, not mine.

> 

>Before you condemn me as arrogant I want to explain. I have paid my dues

for

>my beliefs. Mostly the reason that I became a sought target in the

"criminal

>jusitce" system is because I was very vociferous in not being ashamed of my

>interest in marijuana and psychedelics, and my feeling that as an educated

>perosn very well aware of the issues that it was shameful for me to have to

>hide what I am doing, like many of my collegues did. Did it but hid it. I

>also felt a responsibility to many of the young people who heard me state

>publicly my opinions and later got inot trouble with the law. I said to

>myself that yes, I am willing to share the social and legal cosequences

that

>our society was dishing out to us for doing what I believed was right. I am

>proud to find out that indeed without evasiveness I was able to survive

>intact all of the obstacles they put in my way.

> 

>I could have easily continued practicing my profession that provided me a

>Porsche and lots of leisure time by 1964, and no one would have examined my

>spice cabinet that I could stack with whatever I wanted, just like my many

>"successful" collegues did. I thought that I could afford a lot more self

>respect and I am happy to report to you that I feel very good that I did,

>even if that led me to many years of imprisonment and all sorts of

>hardships. In my own eyes my reputation is polished quite the opposite of

>tarnished. In the prisons I  have run into many more honorable people like

>myself, more than outside the prison walls  sometimes.

> 

>No ill feelings Joe. Just letting you know how I feel about your idea that

>being an ex-con I have a tarnished reputation that I have to learn to live

>with. If you are wondering whether ignorant folks bother me or have

>interfered with my life, or if i have been handicapped by that criminal

>record, the answer is not at all. I am doing what I want to no one has

dared

>use my record against me in any way.

> 

>Setting the record straight?

>leon

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:57:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      star wars and Kerouac?

Mime-Version: 1.0

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its a shame that Kerouac didn't live to see star wars. Before  you all

accuse me of being shallow, think about this: star wars is an epic film of

imagination, a modern myth using ideas from classic literature. There's a

book out right now that compares the star wars genre to myth. Would the

beats "dig" such cinematic attempts?

                                                        jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:10:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Gary - Larry - Harry Lecture Series!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

As well as Levi's suggestions for the lecture, I'd add Gregory Corso and

Larry Ferlinghetti....just kidding - couldn't resist!

 

        Does anyone actually call him Larry?...it doesn't exactly trip off

my tongue.

 

        I was actually thinking that if Harry "the Hipster" Gibson hadn't

died, it would have been a treat to contemplate a Gary - Larry - Harry

lecture!  ....although god knows what Harry would have had to say about the

beats, much less about literature!

 

                Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:01:57 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "j." <NIEL1000@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

 

i too am an excon: but i am a graduate of the juvenile court system:

i feel there is a certain red badge of courage for surviving what i

put myself through: and the insight and wisdom gained from my

experiences is incredible: you cant get that from a book: j.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:07:16 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "j." <NIEL1000@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

Subject:      the last time i committed suicide

 

you absolutely must see this film: j.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:27:00 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ottis L. Murray" <OLM@MAIL.LRCOG.DST.NC.US>

 

unscribe beat-l

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:13:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack Kerouac reading: More titles

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Patrick L. Fermor - MANI

Lekachman - The Age of Keyes

Fred Hoffman - Marginal Manners

Federico Garcia Lorca

Agatha Christie

H.D.F. Kitto

Plutarch's Lines

Christopher Marlowe

Lenny Bruce

 

  These are all documented as being read or, at least perused by Jack

Kerouac at one time or another...we do know that Kerouac criticized Lenny

Bruce for "hating everything."

 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:36:36 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <msg1205197.thr-f120c4ac.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

>      music is a powerful entity in itself, it's healing, it sings the

> rhythyms of the soul, very spiritual,  whether it's mozart or

> metallica.  now when tou combine words and music, the words it seems

> have a free ride to your subconscious.  how much easier it is to

> reiterate a song than words alone, preserving timing, etc.  because it

> takes a different path to whatever regions of your mind it goes to,

> maybe it penetrates further tht way.  i find the same for music

> enhanced by words, music alone doesn't get in there as quickly and

> strongly as music with words.

 

What I was really wondering was if the rhythm, tempo (all the musical

elements, etc.) are something more than just an efficient delivery system,

but actually, really and truly, and independently of any merely personal

and subjectve psychology, add to the meaning of a literary work. I think

it's pretty obvious that it does, but how exactly, and what is the precise

nature of this addition? I want something more than psychology here.

But what could this "more" be?--

 

>  that was part of the reason i mentioned

> a progression in literature that combines prose, poetry, music... i

> think we'll have to incorporate the visual arts also, again, not merely

> an illustrated book, but more fully melded.

 

Isn't this what opera was supposed to accomplish? It was supposed to be

the Consummate Art precisely because it united words, music, visual arts

(the scene design & costumes), and I suppose you could also integrate

dance into it if you wanted. But so many people find opera intolerable!

Maybe there's such a thing as trying to include too much and ending up

with a clumsy dinosaur.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:31:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mark Schoeck <Ireneaus13@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: star wars and Kerouac?

 

for some strange reason i think i agree. that could just be on account of

fanatacism for the the two.   mark.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:32:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mark Schoeck <Ireneaus13@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: the last time i committed suicide

 

i caught it on cinamax a few months ago, amazing.

mark.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:01:02 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: star wars and Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971113135444.18729A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:

 

> its a shame that Kerouac didn't live to see star wars. Before  you all

> accuse me of being shallow, think about this: star wars is an epic film of

> imagination, a modern myth using ideas from classic literature. There's a

> book out right now that compares the star wars genre to myth. Would the

> beats "dig" such cinematic attempts?

>                                                         jason

> 

YES YES YES!!

The Beats would have LOVED Star Wars!

What's this book that you speak of?  i know Joseph Campbell speaks of Star

Wars a lot in his books, but is this a new one?

Any one know what the guys that lived to see Star Wars think about it?

 

-matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:00:04 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "summer s. eve" <NIEL1000@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

Subject:      Re: the last time i committed suicide

 

Date sent:      Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:32:25 -0500

Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:           Mark Schoeck <Ireneaus13@AOL.COM>

Subject:        Re: the last time i committed suicide

To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

i caught it on cinamax a few months ago, amazing.

mark.

 

what did you think?: i absolutely loved it: j.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:01:54 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "summer s. eve" <NIEL1000@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

Subject:      Re: star wars and Kerouac?

 

Date sent:      Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:31:33 -0500

Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:           Mark Schoeck <Ireneaus13@AOL.COM>

Subject:        Re: star wars and Kerouac?

To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

for some strange reason i think i agree. that could just be on account of

fanatacism for the the two.   mark.

 

the beats defined their generation and in a sense star wars did the

same: j.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:53:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Meghan Langley <PnkAngora@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: the last time i committed suicide

 

I agree, the film was quite good.  I was hesitant to see it at first, because

I generally don't like screen adaptations.  However, with this movie, their

was nothing in the portrayal of Neal that conflicted with any of the

images\impressions  I had aleady formed from literature or otherwise.  Good

flick.

-meghan

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:08:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Hubert Selby

In-Reply-To:  <971111213144_1670290632@mrin53.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

aAt 21:31 11/11/97 -0500, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-11-11 17:31:07 EST, you write:

> 

><< I think Selby is incredibly under-appreciated. I think he's a master. >>

>Hubert Selby is a monster writer and should be discussed on this list more

>often.  I heartily agree with your selections, Glenn, but I'm curious as to

>why you left off Last Exit to Brooklyn.  Isn't it as least as good as The

>Demon and The Room?

> 

 

Well, oddly enough, "Last Exit" is the only Selby book I *don't* have! Just

haven't gotten around to buying it. Probably because it's the most popular.

I have a thing going on in my head that censors anything that reaches mass

popularity. I've seen the movie, though!

 

"The Room" and "The Demon" are every bit as horrific as "Naked Lunch", and

in many ways go even further in their attempts to portray human depravity,

and the evil inherent in all of us.

 

To anyone who hasn't read Selby, I can't recommend him highly enough. I

have a blurb somewhere from Ginsberg, where he calls Selby "the most

important innovator since Burroughs".

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:15:36 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Cecco Angiolieri an Ancient Beat.

In-Reply-To:  <199711121757.JAA20874@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

cari amici,

Cecco Angiolieri born in Siena (near Florence) in 1260,

was an italian poet, he was involved in brawls and

lawsuit for don't do the military service. He was a

friend to Dante Alighieri.

His feeling is't picaresque but a mix of spleen and joy,

Lawrence Ferlighetti appreciates Angiolieri's poetry.

 

Now i post a poem by Cecco Angiolieri dated at end of the 1200s'

 

*       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

        La mia malinconia               by Cecco Angiolieri

 

        La mia malinconia e' tanta e tale,

        ch'e' non discredo che, s'egli 'l sapesse

        un che mi fosse nemico mortale,

        che di me di pietade non piangesse

 

        Quella, per cu' m'avven, poco ne cale;

        che mi parebbe, sed ella volesse

        guarir'n un punto di tutto tutto 'l mie male

        sed ella pur: - I' t'odio - mi dicesse

 

        Ma quest'e' la risposta c'ho da lei;

        e ched'i vad'a far li fatti miei;

        ch'ella non cura s'i' ho gi'oi' o pene

        men ch'una paglia che le va tra' piei:

        mal grado h'abbi Amor, ch'a le' mi diene.

 

*       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

 

un saluto a tutti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:21:51 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: 1st & last response to Grant's attempt to start a flame war.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

ARRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH

AAAAAAARRRRRRRRAAAEEEEEEEEEEEGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

w

i

l

l

 

t'

h

i

s

 

e

v

e

r

 s

t

o

p????????????????????????????????????????????????????

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:32:21 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: 1st & last response to Grant's attempt to start a flame war.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> ARRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH

> AAAAAAARRRRRRRRAAAEEEEEEEEEEEGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

> w

> i

> l

> l

> 

> t'

> h

> i

> s

> 

> e

> v

> e

> r

>  s

> t

> o

> p????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

i think it probably will.

 

optimistically,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:01:24 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      GAN

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Many years ago I stumbled across a wonderful American novel, _The

Anointed_, by Clyde Brion Davis (1937). It starts:

 

        Once I was sitting on a bench in Boston Common and a crazy man

came down the path from that Civil War memorial. He was an old man about

fifty or sixty and the lapels of his coat were covered with celluloid

buttons that said, "O, You Kid," "Keep Cool With Coolidge," "Cow Brand

Soda," "The Jolly Chums Club," and things like that.

        This crazy man came over to my bench in the shade and sat down.

Pretty soon he looked over at me and began to laugh. He laughed and

laughed.

        I said to him, "Mister, what in hell are you laughing at?"

        And he stopped laughing a little and wiped his eyes on a blue

bandanna handkerchief, and said, "I am laughing at you and Boston and the

world. God and I are laughing."

 

I read this opening and I was hooked.

"But," you ask, "what has all this to do with the materials on this list?"

Well, the author, Clyde Brion Davis, pre-empted one of the threads of

recent discussion on this list: Davis's second novel, published in 1938,

was titled _The Great American Novel_!

Cordially,

Michael Skau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:32:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: star wars and Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971113135444.18729A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Well, you do know that Lucas hired Joseph Campbell as a consultant on the

first film and while he was developing the idea for the series as he

wanted the saga to have a mythic quality to it, which, I would lay, is the

main empatis (sp?) behind the popularity and perpetuity of the films.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:45:35 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: star wars and Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Alex Howard wrote:

> 

> Well, you do know that Lucas hired Joseph Campbell as a consultant on the

> first film and while he was developing the idea for the series as he

> wanted the saga to have a mythic quality to it, which, I would lay, is the

> main empatis (sp?) behind the popularity and perpetuity of the films.

> 

> ------------------

> Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

> kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

> http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

 

i finally broke down and watched them the summer before last after so

many years of hearing about the Campbell connection (ending my quest to

be the only living American that hadn't seen them <smile>).

 

perhaps i need to see them again.  my first impression was that Joseph

Campbell's spin on them the Bill Moyer's videos is better than the

movies themselves.

 

horribly un-American,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:05:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Cecco Angiolieri an Ancient Beat.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

hi rinaldo,

could you maybe post an english translation of this poem.

 

 

 

from,

Eric

 

 

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:15:36 +0100 Rinaldo Rasa

<rinaldo@GPNET.IT> wrote:

 

> cari amici,

> Cecco Angiolieri born in Siena (near Florence) in 1260,

> was an italian poet, he was involved in brawls and

> lawsuit for don't do the military service. He was a

> friend to Dante Alighieri.

> His feeling is't picaresque but a mix of spleen and joy,

> Lawrence Ferlighetti appreciates Angiolieri's poetry.

> 

> Now i post a poem by Cecco Angiolieri dated at end of the 1200s'

> 

> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

>         La mia malinconia               by Cecco Angiolieri

> 

>         La mia malinconia e' tanta e tale,

>         ch'e' non discredo che, s'egli 'l sapesse

>         un che mi fosse nemico mortale,

>         che di me di pietade non piangesse

> 

>         Quella, per cu' m'avven, poco ne cale;

>         che mi parebbe, sed ella volesse

>         guarir'n un punto di tutto tutto 'l mie male

>         sed ella pur: - I' t'odio - mi dicesse

> 

>         Ma quest'e' la risposta c'ho da lei;

>         e ched'i vad'a far li fatti miei;

>         ch'ella non cura s'i' ho gi'oi' o pene

>         men ch'una paglia che le va tra' piei:

>         mal grado h'abbi Amor, ch'a le' mi diene.

> 

> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

> 

> un saluto a tutti,

> Rinaldo.

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:03:49 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cecco Angiolieri an Ancient Beat.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

> 

> hi rinaldo,

> could you maybe post an english translation of this poem.

> 

> from,

> Eric

> 

> On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:15:36 +0100 Rinaldo Rasa

> <rinaldo@GPNET.IT> wrote:

> 

> > cari amici,

> > Cecco Angiolieri born in Siena (near Florence) in 1260,

> > was an italian poet, he was involved in brawls and

> > lawsuit for don't do the military service. He was a

> > friend to Dante Alighieri.

> > His feeling is't picaresque but a mix of spleen and joy,

> > Lawrence Ferlighetti appreciates Angiolieri's poetry.

> >

> > Now i post a poem by Cecco Angiolieri dated at end of the 1200s'

> >

> > *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

> >         La mia malinconia               by Cecco Angiolieri

> >

> >         La mia malinconia e' tanta e tale,

> >         ch'e' non discredo che, s'egli 'l sapesse

> >         un che mi fosse nemico mortale,

> >         che di me di pietade non piangesse

> >

> >         Quella, per cu' m'avven, poco ne cale;

> >         che mi parebbe, sed ella volesse

> >         guarir'n un punto di tutto tutto 'l mie male

> >         sed ella pur: - I' t'odio - mi dicesse

> >

> >         Ma quest'e' la risposta c'ho da lei;

> >         e ched'i vad'a far li fatti miei;

> >         ch'ella non cura s'i' ho gi'oi' o pene

> >         men ch'una paglia che le va tra' piei:

> >         mal grado h'abbi Amor, ch'a le' mi diene.

> >

> > *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

> >

> > un saluto a tutti,

> > Rinaldo.

 

hi rinaldo,

 

so good to see your name on my computer screen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:10:13 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: GAN

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Hello Attila and alll,

> When I read Kerouac, I want to write.

> 

> When I read Vonnegut, I want to read.

> 

true true. never read on the road if you can't drive.

 

> But the best book for me is

> Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole.

> A#1

yes, it is a wonderful book, but definetly not the Great American

Novel. Perhaps the Great New Orleans Novel. if anyone wants a real

funny book and/or ever lived in New Orleans (preferably thirty odd

years ago) this is the book for you. no higher praise can  be given

for a book of this stature.

 

> 

> so it goes, Attila

> 

Randall

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:22:03 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      FW: LECTURE SERIES

 

----------

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 9:42 PM

To:     'Beat-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'

Subject:        LECTURE SERIES

 

I'm sponsoring a lecture series on the beats.  it will feature (if I can get

them) Gary Snyder, Larry Ferlinghetti, and Gerald Nicosia Snyder.  What do you

guys think about these choices.  Have you heard any of these writers

speak(besides Snyder)?

 

Thanks!!!!!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:49:05 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Ferlinghetti recording

 

A while back someone asked about recordings of Ferlinghetti reading "A

Coney Island of the Mind."  Going through some spoken word records in my

collection this evening I came across an album called "San Francisco

Poets" on the Evergreen label.  It includes an excerpt from Coney Island

of the Mind and a poem called "Dog" by Ferlinghetti.  Also featured are

Brother Antoninus, Kenneth Rexroth, Robert Duncan, Michael McClure,

Philip Whalen, Allen Ginsberg, James Broughton, Josephine Miles, and

Jack Spicer.  Sorry if this information was already posted.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:55:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: star wars and Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>its a shame that Kerouac didn't live to see star wars. Before  you all

>accuse me of being shallow, think about this: star wars is an epic film

>of

>imagination, a modern myth using ideas from classic literature. There's

>a

>book out right now that compares the star wars genre to myth. Would the

>beats "dig" such cinematic attempts?

 

     I think that jack's view on sci-fi was that it was an attempt to

renew the vitality of literature without making progressions is

writing... i remember reading something to that effect.  what he

would've thought of the movie i don't know for sure, obviously.  star

wars is a classic regardless, because it has everything, i use it often

as a comparison in lit classes, much to instructors' distress... i

think that jack might have appreciated the grandioseness of it, but may

have classified it as rehash.. hard to say.. considering how

ever-changing jack was, it's hard to say what he would've been like in

'77, except for the sincere core of his being.

     Makes me wonder how his still being alive today would've affected

his popularity... i also wonder if he would've continued to make new

progressions in writing or if he would've stuck with what he'd

achieved... again, hard to say... it's pretty pointless in wondering, i

don't think jack was meant to live to a ripe old age..

despite his domestic desires.  a lot like jesus christ, especially his

portrayal in last temp. of christ... reminds me of jack's life.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:07:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M .Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: star wars and Kerouac?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:57 PM 13/11/97 -0500, jason wrote:

>its a shame that Kerouac didn't live to see star wars.

>Before  you all accuse me of being shallow, think

>about this: star wars is an epic film of imagination,

>a modern myth using ideas from classic literature.

>There's a book out right now that compares the

>star wars genre to myth. Would the

>beats "dig" such cinematic attempts?

 

Luke Skywalker and Buddha have a lot in common.

Guatanama Sakyamumi had been protected by his

father from the knowledge of age, sickness, death, etc.

And LS was protected by his uncle from the knowledge

of his father, the *force*, etc.  And as all young people do,

they both rebelled and looked for other experiences.

In the end, when they were ready, they both gained the

"force," or "enlightenment."

 

I believe a good look at Joseph Campbell's _The Hero

With A Thousand Faces_ would be wise.  If I remember

correctly, he was some how connected to George Lucas

for these movies.

 

"May the force be with you!!"

Yoda (woops, I mean Mike)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:08:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>What I was really wondering was if the rhythm, tempo (all the musical

>elements, etc.) are something more than just an efficient delivery

>system,

>but actually, really and truly, and independently of any merely personal

>and subjectve psychology, add to the meaning of a literary work. I think

>it's pretty obvious that it does, but how exactly, and what is the

>precise

>nature of this addition? I want something more than psychology here.

>But what could this "more" be?--

 

     most definitely.  adding to the meaning? do you mean theme? mood?

value of the work?  very simply, let's say we have a scene rapidly

progressing in time, a staccato rhythm conveys that sense, and drives

the reader furiously forward.  same as longer, more mellifluous rhythms

will often do the opposite.  more than psych?  well, if you're looking

at it from the point of view of writing, as in how you're writing,

regardless o subject matter, yes, it's essential to be conscious of it.

 how else? there are infinite subtle intricacies that some would

disagree with.. depending on your view of the reader's subconscious

mind.  repitition being a form of rhythm, take jack's commonly used

words, night, sky, stars, or colors, or the wonderful red slant light

that indicates sudden passing revelation, placed in key points

throughout a large work the mind will connect those moments because of

these recurring phenomena.  so we have an element that significantly

contributes to unification, and which aids in collapsing the work into

a more instantly perceived thing.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:15:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>Isn't this what opera was supposed to accomplish? It was supposed to be

>the Consummate Art precisely because it united words, music, visual arts

>(the scene design & costumes), and I suppose you could also integrate

>dance into it if you wanted. But so many people find opera intolerable!

>Maybe there's such a thing as trying to include too much and ending up

>with a clumsy dinosaur.

 

     well, when i talk about this melding i'm almost always referring

to writing; incorporating these things into the written work.  my

interest when i mention this is in pushing lit/writing further, rather

than the entire realm of art.  i also mean a combination that leaves no

visible seams.  opera is a form, an in being so is uniform as a whole,

there are standards and they are followed.  it's the same skeleton.

the point is to make a new animal.  of course you have to build on

what's come before, but that influence needs to be renounced after it's

been used as a stepping stone.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:18:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: GAN

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>  Once I was sitting on a bench in Boston Common and a crazy man

>came down the path from that Civil War memorial. He was an old man about

>fifty or sixty and the lapels of his coat were covered with celluloid

>buttons that said, "O, You Kid," "Keep Cool With Coolidge," "Cow Brand

>Soda," "The Jolly Chums Club," and things like that.

 

     i think i know this guy.  :)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:06:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: beat courses

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Neil,

 

a couple of years ago I took an American Lit course and Lolita was on the

syl.  It was an upper level course and one of the exam questions asked us

to argue pro or con, for or against introducing Lolita to students of a

freshman lit course.  Probably a good question for anyone who wants to

teach the book.

 

 Does Nabokov appear on many American Lit syllabi? I

>haven't seen him listed for courses in and around my school.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:37:29 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat and Kerouac books for sale

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Plase send me this list.  Thanks!!

 

 

At 03:46 AM 11/13/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Hello,

> 

>If you are interested in a short list of Kerouac and beat books for sale

>(most are collectible) please e mail me and I will send you the list.

> 

>thanks

>Attila

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:03:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: beat courses

In-Reply-To:  <v01540b00b09152d890e0@[146.201.2.123]>

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I read Lolita on my own and I thought it was the best book I had read in

awhile. Of course, the movie version has been censored here in the US but

not in Europe...

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:00:11 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      ATTN: DAVID MELTZER

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Hello all:

 

I seem to recall at one time or another running across a person either

on this list or the other one i'm on by the name of David Meltzer.

David, I just wanted to let you know i picked up a copy of 'New American

Writing' that has 'from BEAT THING' in it.

 

enjoyed it much

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:15:53 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

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Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> of course you have to build on

> what's come before, but that influence needs to be renounced after it's

> been used as a stepping stone.

 

i didn't understand the need or purpose of this renunciation you

suggest.  could you expand on your notion?

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:51:09 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Gary - Larry - Harry Lecture Series!

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>         Does anyone actually call him Larry?...it doesn't exactly trip off

> my tongue.

 

Antoine,

 

If they were to call Mr. Ferlinghetti  "Larry" they would be reminded

that it is "Lawrence".  Not Mr. F, not Larry, Lawrence.

 

I have heard him react this way when addressed as Larry by the son of a

Beat Icon.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:02:09 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Lolita on film

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Glad to see some drums beating for V. Nabokov who in my mind is the

writer in this century who most closely resembles a genius like Mozart,

especially when you consider his ability to write marvelous Russian,

French and English.  Lolita is one of the great books of our time in my

op.

 

As I understand it the current film version is not so much censored as

having one hell of a time attracting a distributor--certainly the theme

is even harder to deal with in this PC environment than it was when the

orignial film was released and apparently the financial terms are also

unnatractive.

 

Don't forget the great version of Lolita that already is out and in

video near you.  One of my top five films of all time, I think.  Sellers

and Mason are magnificent.  Kubrick at his best.  Nabokov screenplay.

I am eager to see if the current film comes close--I do like the idea of

Jeremy Irons as Humbert.

 

J. Stauffer

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> 

 Of course, the movie version has been censored here in the US but

> not in Europe...

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:13:59 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      [Fwd: Re: Lolita]

MIME-Version: 1.0

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

 

--------------790413741ACA

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Mike,

 

Yes it's odd, my name seems to appear in the reply to area rather than

Beat L.  There are a few others like that, for most of you it's a list

reply.  Maybe Bill is trying to shut me up, or maybe because I have

advocated that format that is what I get!  I think Leon's is the same.

 

Hmmmmm.

 

J. Stauffer

 

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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:07:14 -0500

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To: stauffer@pacbell.net

From: "M .Cakebread" <cake@ionline.net>

Subject: Re: Lolita

 

Ahh, I noticed that the auto-thingy is on and this

is going to you James - not the list.  Hmm?  If

you think anyone else would be interested in this

you can forward it to Beat-l.

 

Mike

------------------------------------------------------------------

Just perusing my copy of _Lolita_ and noticed the

prelude was by a "favorite" professor of a few of the people

mentioned here from time to time. {;^>

 

>From the Berkeley Medallion Edition, November, 1966

 

                                        LOLITA

 

"In recent fiction no lover has thought of his beloved with

so much tenderness, no woman has been so charmingly

evoked, in such grace and delicacy, as Lolita; it is one of

the few examples of rapture in modern writing. . . .

 

I think that the real reason why Mr. Nabokov chose his

outrageous subject matter is that he wanted to write a

story about love.

 

Lolita is about love.  Perhaps I shall be better understood

if I put the statement in this form: Lolita is not about sex,

but about love.  Almost every page sets forth some explicit

erotic emotion or some overt erotic action and still is not

about sex.  It is about love.  This makes it unique in my

experience of contemporary novels. . . ."

 

Lionel Trilling

 

 

--------------790413741ACA--

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:14:22 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Cecco Angiolieri an Ancient Beat.

In-Reply-To:  <346B9565.6EE7@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 18.03 13/11/97 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:

>Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

>> 

>> hi rinaldo,

>> could you maybe post an english translation of this poem.

>> 

>> from,

>> Eric

>> 

>> On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:15:36 +0100 Rinaldo Rasa

>> <rinaldo@GPNET.IT> wrote:

>> 

>> > cari amici,

>> > Cecco Angiolieri born in Siena (near Florence) in 1260,

>> > was an italian poet, he was involved in brawls and

>> > lawsuit for don't do the military service. He was a

>> > friend to Dante Alighieri.

>> > His feeling is't picaresque but a mix of spleen and joy,

>> > Lawrence Ferlighetti appreciates Angiolieri's poetry.

>> >

>> > Now i post a poem by Cecco Angiolieri dated at end of the 1200s'

>> >

>> > *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

>> >         La mia malinconia               by Cecco Angiolieri

>> >

>> >         La mia malinconia e' tanta e tale,

>> >         ch'e' non discredo che, s'egli 'l sapesse

>> >         un che mi fosse nemico mortale,

>> >         che di me di pietade non piangesse

>> >

>> >         Quella, per cu' m'avven, poco ne cale;

>> >         che mi parebbe, sed ella volesse

>> >         guarir'n un punto di tutto tutto 'l mie male

>> >         sed ella pur: - I' t'odio - mi dicesse

>> >

>> >         Ma quest'e' la risposta c'ho da lei;

>> >         e ched'i vad'a far li fatti miei;

>> >         ch'ella non cura s'i' ho gi'oi' o pene

>> >         men ch'una paglia che le va tra' piei:

>> >         mal grado h'abbi Amor, ch'a le' mi diene.

>> >

>> > *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

>> >

>> > un saluto a tutti,

>> > Rinaldo.

> 

>hi rinaldo,

> 

>so good to see your name on my computer screen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

> 

cari amici,

 

the Cecco Angiolieri poem is written in very ancient italian,

the time (XIII century) when i.e. the ego was "I" (note the italian

"I" use in the ancient italian sentence "I' t'odio"= "i hate you!",

then the use was dismissed, now of course the italian people is

less egocentric...).

 

the poem is in a bunch of poems written by Cecco Angiolieri, prolific

medieval writer .

 

well, for the poem "La mia malinconia" Cecco is in sad blue feeling,

his girlfriend parted from him. Cecco is hopeless...

 

*       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

                        My melancholy           by Cecco Angiolieri

 

                        my melancholy is deep

                        that even a my worse enemy

                        would have pity for me

 

                        but the woman

                        she doesn't care about my melancholy

                        she doesn't tell to me not even I hate!

                        If she tells me "I hate you"

                        it would cure my melancholy

 

                        but the woman

                        she tell me go away!

                        she doesn't care about my melancholy

                        she tramples on my sorrow like grass

                        under her feet.

 

*       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

 

i think it's wonderful to post the original poem by Cecco (the

poem that Lawrence Ferlinghetti mimes in ''Alla maniera di

Cecco Angiolieri'')

 

*       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

 

                S'i' fosse foco         by Cecco Angiolieri

 

                S'i' fosse foco arderei 'l mondo;

                s'i' fosse vento, lo tempesterei;

                s'i' fossi acqua i' l'annegherei;

4               s'i' fosse Dio mandereil'en profondo;

 

                s'i' fosse papa, sare' allor giocondo,

                che' tutti cristiani imbrigherei;

                s'i' fosse 'mperator, sa' che farei?

8               A tutti mozzarei lo capo a tondo.

 

                S'i' fosse morte anderei da mio padre;

                s'i' fossi vita, fuggirei da lui:

11              similmente far'ia da mi' madre.

 

*       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

translation of the above poem

by courtesy of Federica "Kikka" Ferrieri

 

 

Cecco Angiolieri                IF I WERE FIRE

----------------        --------------

 

IF I WERE FIRE, I WOULD BURN THE WORLD;

IF I WERE WIND, IWOULD STORM IT;

IF I WERE WATER, I WOULD DROWN IT;

IF I WERE GOD, I WOULD SEND IT INTO DEPTH;

 

IF I WERE THE POPE, I WOULD THEN BE HAPPY,

BECAUSE I WOULD TROUBLE ALL CHRISTIAN PEOPLE;

IF I WERE THE EMPEROR, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO?

I WOULD COMPLETELY DECAPITATE EVERYONE

 

IF I WERE DEATH, I WOULD GO TO MY FATHER;

IF I WERE LIFE, I WOULD ESCAPE FROM HIM:

IN THE SAME WAY I WOULD BEHAVE WITH MY MOTHER.

 

IF I WERE CECCO, AS I AM AND HAS BEEN,

I WOULD CHOSE YOUNG AND BEAUTIFUL WOMEN:

AND LEAVE THE OLD AND UGLY ONES FRO SOMEONE OTHER.

 

*       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

 

un caro saluto a tutti,

Rinaldo e "Kikka".

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:45:13 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cecco Angiolieri an Ancient Beat.

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rinaldo, wonderful poems, you make us open up. i do fear you have set a

a poor example, for we are too provincial,  should you ask us for to

please post our words in italian too.

ciao

patricia

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> 

> At 18.03 13/11/97 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:

> >Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

> >>

> >> hi rinaldo,

> >> could you maybe post an english translation of this poem.

> >>

> >> from,

> >> Eric

> >>

> >> On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:15:36 +0100 Rinaldo Rasa

> >> <rinaldo@GPNET.IT> wrote:

> >>

> >> > cari amici,

> >> > Cecco Angiolieri born in Siena (near Florence) in 1260,

> >> > was an italian poet, he was involved in brawls and

> >> > lawsuit for don't do the military service. He was a

> >> > friend to Dante Alighieri.

> >> > His feeling is't picaresque but a mix of spleen and joy,

> >> > Lawrence Ferlighetti appreciates Angiolieri's poetry.

> >> >

> >> > Now i post a poem by Cecco Angiolieri dated at end of the 1200s'

> >> >

> >> > *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

> >> >         La mia malinconia               by Cecco Angiolieri

> >> >

> >> >         La mia malinconia e' tanta e tale,

> >> >         ch'e' non discredo che, s'egli 'l sapesse

> >> >         un che mi fosse nemico mortale,

> >> >         che di me di pietade non piangesse

> >> >

> >> >         Quella, per cu' m'avven, poco ne cale;

> >> >         che mi parebbe, sed ella volesse

> >> >         guarir'n un punto di tutto tutto 'l mie male

> >> >         sed ella pur: - I' t'odio - mi dicesse

> >> >

> >> >         Ma quest'e' la risposta c'ho da lei;

> >> >         e ched'i vad'a far li fatti miei;

> >> >         ch'ella non cura s'i' ho gi'oi' o pene

> >> >         men ch'una paglia che le va tra' piei:

> >> >         mal grado h'abbi Amor, ch'a le' mi diene.

> >> >

> >> > *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

> >> >

> >> > un saluto a tutti,

> >> > Rinaldo.

> >

> >hi rinaldo,

> >

> >so good to see your name on my computer screen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >salina, Kansas

> >

> cari amici,

> 

> the Cecco Angiolieri poem is written in very ancient italian,

> the time (XIII century) when i.e. the ego was "I" (note the italian

> "I" use in the ancient italian sentence "I' t'odio"= "i hate you!",

> then the use was dismissed, now of course the italian people is

> less egocentric...).

> 

> the poem is in a bunch of poems written by Cecco Angiolieri, prolific

> medieval writer .

> 

> well, for the poem "La mia malinconia" Cecco is in sad blue feeling,

> his girlfriend parted from him. Cecco is hopeless...

> 

> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

  *       *

>                         My melancholy           by Cecco Angiolieri

> 

>                         my melancholy is deep

>                         that even a my worse enemy

>                         would have pity for me

> 

>                         but the woman

>                         she doesn't care about my melancholy

>                         she doesn't tell to me not even I hate!

>                         If she tells me "I hate you"

>                         it would cure my melancholy

> 

>                         but the woman

>                         she tell me go away!

>                         she doesn't care about my melancholy

>                         she tramples on my sorrow like grass

>                         under her feet.

> 

> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

  *       *

> 

> i think it's wonderful to post the original poem by Cecco (the

> poem that Lawrence Ferlinghetti mimes in ''Alla maniera di

> Cecco Angiolieri'')

> 

> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

  *       *

> 

>                 S'i' fosse foco         by Cecco Angiolieri

> 

>                 S'i' fosse foco arderei 'l mondo;

>                 s'i' fosse vento, lo tempesterei;

>                 s'i' fossi acqua i' l'annegherei;

> 4               s'i' fosse Dio mandereil'en profondo;

> 

>                 s'i' fosse papa, sare' allor giocondo,

>                 che' tutti cristiani imbrigherei;

>                 s'i' fosse 'mperator, sa' che farei?

> 8               A tutti mozzarei lo capo a tondo.

> 

>                 S'i' fosse morte anderei da mio padre;

>                 s'i' fossi vita, fuggirei da lui:

> 11              similmente far'ia da mi' madre.

> 

> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

  *       *

> translation of the above poem

> by courtesy of Federica "Kikka" Ferrieri

> 

> Cecco Angiolieri                IF I WERE FIRE

> ----------------        --------------

> 

> IF I WERE FIRE, I WOULD BURN THE WORLD;

> IF I WERE WIND, IWOULD STORM IT;

> IF I WERE WATER, I WOULD DROWN IT;

> IF I WERE GOD, I WOULD SEND IT INTO DEPTH;

> 

> IF I WERE THE POPE, I WOULD THEN BE HAPPY,

> BECAUSE I WOULD TROUBLE ALL CHRISTIAN PEOPLE;

> IF I WERE THE EMPEROR, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO?

> I WOULD COMPLETELY DECAPITATE EVERYONE

> 

> IF I WERE DEATH, I WOULD GO TO MY FATHER;

> IF I WERE LIFE, I WOULD ESCAPE FROM HIM:

> IN THE SAME WAY I WOULD BEHAVE WITH MY MOTHER.

> 

> IF I WERE CECCO, AS I AM AND HAS BEEN,

> I WOULD CHOSE YOUNG AND BEAUTIFUL WOMEN:

> AND LEAVE THE OLD AND UGLY ONES FRO SOMEONE OTHER.

> 

> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

  *       *

> 

> un caro saluto a tutti,

> Rinaldo e "Kikka".

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:12:48 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon wrote:

> It is easy for elders to disrespect the younger ones. The elders who

> have aquired years of experience which is weighty but can be very very

> wrong also. Personally I think that quite possibly Vonnegut dismissed

> another young person's question, the way some of us dismiss the ways of

> the "x-generation".

 

 

 

 

Going back to the x-generation thread:

 

maybe this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates

exactly why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of the

grungekids) spends so much time bitching about how people don't really

understand them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to

understand...

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:26:16 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      star wars and kerouac

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> Subject:

>         star wars and Kerouac?

>   Date:

>         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:57:43 -0500

>   From:

>         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

> 

> 

> its a shame that Kerouac didn't live to see star wars. Before  you all

> accuse me of being shallow, think about this: star wars is an epic film of

> imagination, a modern myth using ideas from classic literature. There's a

> book out right now that compares the star wars genre to myth. Would the

> beats "dig" such cinematic attempts?

>                                                         jason

 

 

 

 

think of it this way:  wasn't "The Shadow" essentially the cinema of

kerouac's childhood????  From what i understand, he had a great affinity

for that radio program.

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:20:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Special! Selected Letters$15.00

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I have the first issue of Selected Letters Vol. I in hardcover by Jack

Kerouac for sale. Only $15.00! There are several copies. With this, I will

include the second Kerouac Quarterly. Go to the web site for more info:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

 

            Thanks, Paul. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:34:22 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         cheryl broderick <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: beat courses

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

Caroline Cassady speaks to UEA this Thursday.

Huzzah!

 

Tom.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:43:38 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         cheryl broderick <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Tom Finds Problems in Beat History

Mime-Version: 1.0

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I have been looking at Joan Vollmer and Bill for the background to a short

 story.

Once again, it seems that there are discrepancies (right word?) between

 different

accounts of what happened.  Does anyone know where I can get a full, and

hopefully correct version of that fatal day?  Joyce Johnson has them drinking at

home, Miles has them in a room above a bar.  Johnson has Joan suggesting the

routine, Miles (and WSB) has Bill suggesting it.  I know I've brought this up

 before,

but I'm more interested now due to it being research.

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:46:20 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         cheryl broderick <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Joan Volllmer(-Adams) Burroughs

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

While I'm on the subject, does anyone know of anything by Joan, letters,

 stories,

poems?  I think there's an archive somewhere, but it'll be in the states,

 which'll

make it difficult for me to get at, if I was even going to take it that far.

 When was

she born? (Well, really, how old was she when she died?)  Are there are other

accounts of Joan apart from WSB biographies and Minor Characters?  I suppose

there might be something in Off The Road... better go check that one.

 

Cheers,

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:22:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: GAN

In-Reply-To:  <msg1223284.thr-e9d9d91d.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>  Once I was sitting on a bench in Boston Common and a crazy man

>>came down the path from that Civil War memorial. He was an old man about

>>fifty or sixty and the lapels of his coat were covered with celluloid

>>buttons that said, "O, You Kid," "Keep Cool With Coolidge," "Cow Brand

>>Soda," "The Jolly Chums Club," and things like that.

> 

>     i think i know this guy.  :)

 

What was it that convinced you he was crazy. Being in Boston? Hanging

around the Commons? Wearing buttons?

 

What year was it?  Back in the 50's while in school in Boston, there were

times when I felt--and probably looked--50 or 60.

 

What were you wearing that day?

 

j grant

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:35:58 -0500

Reply-To:     mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mongo BearWolf <mongo.bearwolf@DARTMOUTH.EDU>

Organization: Dartmouth College

Subject:      Ginsberg Artwork - forwarded inquiry

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Hi folks...

 

I'm forwarding the following inquiry from a correspondent who is not on

the list.  Please reply DIRECTLY to Jay, not to me.  Thanks!

 

--Mongo

 

---------------

 

Hello,

 

I'm an art dealer in New York. I've been offered a drawing of

Allen Ginsberg, signed by Allen Ginsberg.

 

My search through various sales databases of auction results

has not yielded any of Ginsberg's art that has sold at auction.

 

Is there a private market, or dealers who specialize in his art? Was

he a painter, in addition to being a poet?  The owner of the drawing

tells me that it's a pastel painting, and it's obviously a portrait

of Ginsberg.

 

Your comments would be appreciated.

 

Thank you,

 

 

Jay Levin

finart@worldnet.att.net

 

--------------------------------------------------------

                     ...visit...

 

                   ALLEN GINSBERG:

              Shadow Changes into Bone

 

       The Clearinghouse for all things Ginsberg!

 

                 http://www.ginzy.com

--------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:03:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: GAN

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>What was it that convinced you he was crazy. Being in Boston? Hanging

>around the Commons? Wearing buttons?

 

>What year was it?  Back in the 50's while in school in Boston, there

>were

>times when I felt--and probably looked--50 or 60.

 

   no, i'm just a lad of 20, but it did remind me of a crazy in boston

i know... i know most of the prominent bums around certain sections of

boston... they're pretty cool guys..   but this guy it reminded me of

sorta looks like castro, about his age, and he wears green jacket and

pants similar to military fatigue, and he's gut a castro gut... and the

hat too, he's always arguing with someone that i can't see, but who i'm

sure is there, it's just that this guy is on a different level of

existence than i am.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:19:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: 1st & last response to Grant's attempt to start a flame war.

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971113183354.006a494c@pop.pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>I'm an ex-con?  I stole library books. Jack Kerouac stole the Buddhist

>Bible from the New York >Public Library. Huncke stole coats and Neal

>Cassady stole cars. Am I not in good company with >the subject matter?

 

On one level it appears that you are.

 

Splash.

 

j grant

 

 

                Small Press Publishers and Authors

                  Display Books Free At BookZen

                                453,989 Visitors  07-01-96 to 07-01-97

                         http://www.bookzen.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:10:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

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>i didn't understand the need or purpose of this renunciation you

>suggest.  could you expand on your notion?

 

     when i said renounced i didn't mean disregarding one's influence

in a negative manner, i meant more use the foundation but then burn it

once the house is built.  Buddhism is a good example, its very precepts

lead to its eventual renouncing, know what i mean?  or like nasa

shuttles drop their thrusters once they've achieved orbit...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:14:07 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>maybe this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates

>exactly why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of the

>grungekids) spends so much time bitching about how people don't really

>understand them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to

>understand...

 

     yeah, but that's the case throughout history; parents never

understand their kids habits/culture...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:21:00 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

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Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> 

> >i didn't understand the need or purpose of this renunciation you

> >suggest.  could you expand on your notion?

> 

>      when i said renounced i didn't mean disregarding one's influence

> in a negative manner, i meant more use the foundation but then burn it

> once the house is built.  Buddhism is a good example, its very precepts

> lead to its eventual renouncing, know what i mean?  or like nasa

> shuttles drop their thrusters once they've achieved orbit...

 

detach?

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:09:29 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 12:14 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>maybe this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates

>>exactly why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of the

>>grungekids) spends so much time bitching about how people don't really

>>understand them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to

>>understand...

> 

>     yeah, but that's the case throughout history; parents never

>understand their kids habits/culture...

> 

> 

 

I think it is the opposite.  The parents understand all too well having been

there before.

 

Youngsters always think they are unique.

 

Youngsters also have more time and inclination to care about if they are

"really understood".

 

Parents understand all too well, understanding is not the problem.

 

I think a lack of trust of faith in the youngster's ability to muddle

through like the rest of humanity has done is more the crux of any friction

than a lack of understanding.  This lack of faith though is based upon the

strong understanding of the kids, so strong that there becomes and

identification and a projection and then a protectionism wherein the parent

sees the kid making all the same mistakes they made.  Thye forget they are

also learning the same things they learned and having the necessary

experiences they has as well.

 

So the parents make the same mistakes their parents made and the kids make

the same mistakes the parents made as kids.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:43:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Frances J Green <fjgst7+@PITT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: star wars and Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <346B911F.18F2@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> 

> i finally broke down and watched them the summer before last after so

> many years of hearing about the Campbell connection (ending my quest to

> be the only living American that hadn't seen them <smile>).

> 

> perhaps i need to see them again.  my first impression was that Joseph

> Campbell's spin on them the Bill Moyer's videos is better than the

> movies themselves.

> 

> horribly un-American,

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> 

 I've never seen them either - nor do I plan to - despite any vague ideas

that the Beats would've loved them. I'm upset you gave in - hopefully my

will power is stronger.

 

 

Fran Green

Pittsburgh, PA

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:14:55 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> At 12:14 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >>maybe this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates

> >>exactly why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of the

> >>grungekids) spends so much time bitching about how people don't really

> >>understand them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to

> >>understand...

> >

> >     yeah, but that's the case throughout history; parents never

> >understand their kids habits/culture...

> >

> >

> 

> I think it is the opposite.  The parents understand all too well having been

> there before.

> 

> Youngsters always think they are unique.

> 

> Youngsters also have more time and inclination to care about if they are

> "really understood".

> 

> Parents understand all too well, understanding is not the problem.

> 

> I think a lack of trust of faith in the youngster's ability to muddle

> through like the rest of humanity has done is more the crux of any friction

> than a lack of understanding.  This lack of faith though is based upon the

> strong understanding of the kids, so strong that there becomes and

> identification and a projection and then a protectionism wherein the parent

> sees the kid making all the same mistakes they made.  Thye forget they are

> also learning the same things they learned and having the necessary

> experiences they has as well.

> 

> So the parents make the same mistakes their parents made and the kids make

> the same mistakes the parents made as kids.

 

probably not limited to just "mistakes" if you mean that in a negative

sense.  if you mean "mistakes" in that being a child or parent is a

series of happy and unhappy accidents giving a double sided emotion to

the word "mistakes" then it seems to make plenty of sense.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:33:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

In-Reply-To:  <346C951F.6280@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Personally, Ive blessed with parents that do understand, whatever it is

there is to understand. I think most parents do, more than my peers care

to realize.

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:34:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Tougue in Cheek

In-Reply-To:  <346C951F.6280@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Just thought I'd let you all know that I got my tounge pierced this

afternoon.

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:45:59 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Cecco Angiolieri an Ancient Beat.

In-Reply-To:  <346C55E9.2140@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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        After Dino Campana              by Lawrence Ferlinghetti

 

 

        'Song of Myself and Others'?

                                                O what a laugh that is

        When all I ever wanted

                was to voice an

                                        inchoate

                                                        elementary fury

                A spirit that frees itself

                                                        and flies

                                to the top of a tree to sing

                        in the ultimate

                                                red sunset

        O tree without birds

                                        standing mute!

 

*       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

 

cari amici,

 

Lawrence Ferlinghetti has celebrated the tuscan poetry

connected with beat poetry and it's right. Of course

there's another 2 line in italian poetry: it's the

sicily poetry and  venetian poetry. speaking of venetian

poetry (or lombard) it's more roughly and picaresque.

The tuscan poetry is more soft and better, so the root

of the italian language tuscan, sicilian and venetian,

it's better choice the tuscan language. Lawrence Ferlinghetti

wrote another poem to celebrate a tuscan poet such as

Dino Campana who was suffering during his life a heavy

mental illness and died in a mental hospital.

 

*       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

for those who like Federico Fellini's movies there's in

the movie titled "Amarcord" (1975) the mad uncle on the

top of the tree shouting "a woman! i want a woman!"

but on evening went the dwarf nun and the madman goes back

peacefully to the hospital, an unforgettable scene.

I dunno if Fellini was suggested by the above poem

"After Dino Campana" or vice versa.

 

un saluto a tutti, a good saturday to everybody,

Rinaldo.

 

*       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

At 07.45 14/11/97 -0600, Patricia Elliott wrote:

>rinaldo, wonderful poems, you make us open up. i do fear you have set a

>a poor example, for we are too provincial,  should you ask us for to

>please post our words in italian too.

>ciao

>patricia

>Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>> 

>> At 18.03 13/11/97 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:

>> >Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

>> >>

>> >> hi rinaldo,

>> >> could you maybe post an english translation of this poem.

>> >>

>> >> from,

>> >> Eric

>> >>

>> >> On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:15:36 +0100 Rinaldo Rasa

>> >> <rinaldo@GPNET.IT> wrote:

>> >>

>> >> > cari amici,

>> >> > Cecco Angiolieri born in Siena (near Florence) in 1260,

>> >> > was an italian poet, he was involved in brawls and

>> >> > lawsuit for don't do the military service. He was a

>> >> > friend to Dante Alighieri.

>> >> > His feeling is't picaresque but a mix of spleen and joy,

>> >> > Lawrence Ferlighetti appreciates Angiolieri's poetry.

>> >> >

>> >> > Now i post a poem by Cecco Angiolieri dated at end of the 1200s'

>> >> >

>> >> > *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

    *

>> >> >         La mia malinconia               by Cecco Angiolieri

>> >> >

>> >> >         La mia malinconia e' tanta e tale,

>> >> >         ch'e' non discredo che, s'egli 'l sapesse

>> >> >         un che mi fosse nemico mortale,

>> >> >         che di me di pietade non piangesse

>> >> >

>> >> >         Quella, per cu' m'avven, poco ne cale;

>> >> >         che mi parebbe, sed ella volesse

>> >> >         guarir'n un punto di tutto tutto 'l mie male

>> >> >         sed ella pur: - I' t'odio - mi dicesse

>> >> >

>> >> >         Ma quest'e' la risposta c'ho da lei;

>> >> >         e ched'i vad'a far li fatti miei;

>> >> >         ch'ella non cura s'i' ho gi'oi' o pene

>> >> >         men ch'una paglia che le va tra' piei:

>> >> >         mal grado h'abbi Amor, ch'a le' mi diene.

>> >> >

>> >> > *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

    *

>> >> >

>> >> > un saluto a tutti,

>> >> > Rinaldo.

>> >

>> >hi rinaldo,

>> >

>> >so good to see your name on my computer screen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>> >

>> >david rhaesa

>> >salina, Kansas

>> >

>> cari amici,

>> 

>> the Cecco Angiolieri poem is written in very ancient italian,

>> the time (XIII century) when i.e. the ego was "I" (note the italian

>> "I" use in the ancient italian sentence "I' t'odio"= "i hate you!",

>> then the use was dismissed, now of course the italian people is

>> less egocentric...).

>> 

>> the poem is in a bunch of poems written by Cecco Angiolieri, prolific

>> medieval writer .

>> 

>> well, for the poem "La mia malinconia" Cecco is in sad blue feeling,

>> his girlfriend parted from him. Cecco is hopeless...

>> 

>> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

>  *       *

>>                         My melancholy           by Cecco Angiolieri

>> 

>>                         my melancholy is deep

>>                         that even a my worse enemy

>>                         would have pity for me

>> 

>>                         but the woman

>>                         she doesn't care about my melancholy

>>                         she doesn't tell to me not even I hate!

>>                         If she tells me "I hate you"

>>                         it would cure my melancholy

>> 

>>                         but the woman

>>                         she tell me go away!

>>                         she doesn't care about my melancholy

>>                         she tramples on my sorrow like grass

>>                         under her feet.

>> 

>> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

>  *       *

>> 

>> i think it's wonderful to post the original poem by Cecco (the

>> poem that Lawrence Ferlinghetti mimes in ''Alla maniera di

>> Cecco Angiolieri'')

>> 

>> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

>  *       *

>> 

>>                 S'i' fosse foco         by Cecco Angiolieri

>> 

>>                 S'i' fosse foco arderei 'l mondo;

>>                 s'i' fosse vento, lo tempesterei;

>>                 s'i' fossi acqua i' l'annegherei;

>> 4               s'i' fosse Dio mandereil'en profondo;

>> 

>>                 s'i' fosse papa, sare' allor giocondo,

>>                 che' tutti cristiani imbrigherei;

>>                 s'i' fosse 'mperator, sa' che farei?

>> 8               A tutti mozzarei lo capo a tondo.

>> 

>>                 S'i' fosse morte anderei da mio padre;

>>                 s'i' fossi vita, fuggirei da lui:

>> 11              similmente far'ia da mi' madre.

>> 

>> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

>  *       *

>> translation of the above poem

>> by courtesy of Federica "Kikka" Ferrieri

>> 

>> Cecco Angiolieri                IF I WERE FIRE

>> ----------------        --------------

>> 

>> IF I WERE FIRE, I WOULD BURN THE WORLD;

>> IF I WERE WIND, IWOULD STORM IT;

>> IF I WERE WATER, I WOULD DROWN IT;

>> IF I WERE GOD, I WOULD SEND IT INTO DEPTH;

>> 

>> IF I WERE THE POPE, I WOULD THEN BE HAPPY,

>> BECAUSE I WOULD TROUBLE ALL CHRISTIAN PEOPLE;

>> IF I WERE THE EMPEROR, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO?

>> I WOULD COMPLETELY DECAPITATE EVERYONE

>> 

>> IF I WERE DEATH, I WOULD GO TO MY FATHER;

>> IF I WERE LIFE, I WOULD ESCAPE FROM HIM:

>> IN THE SAME WAY I WOULD BEHAVE WITH MY MOTHER.

>> 

>> IF I WERE CECCO, AS I AM AND HAS BEEN,

>> I WOULD CHOSE YOUNG AND BEAUTIFUL WOMEN:

>> AND LEAVE THE OLD AND UGLY ONES FRO SOMEONE OTHER.

>> 

>> *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

>  *       *

>> 

>> un caro saluto a tutti,

>> Rinaldo e "Kikka".

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:40:05 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

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I don't think too much should be made about generational divisions.

Vonnegut was always bitching, even before he grew old.

 

Harold Rhenisch

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:18:24 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

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>From one dad to another, Hi Tim!

 

Kids will be kids and grownups will be grown ups and the ones in between

have their own problems. I agree with you Tim that parents have gone through

childhood and that kids have not yet experienced parenthood.

 

What makes nevertheless very difficult for parents to understand their

children, is the fact that the world of the parents' childhood was changed

from under them, some of it by their own adult activities, but also by many

other influences that they weren't able to keep out.

 

All too often parents are strangers to the very different world their kids

are immersed in, surrounded by, and which create new ways,  new anxieities,

new mores, new social standards, etc., etc.. Pierced body parts and purple

hair are only a couple of more extreme examples that were hard for parents

to accept. Then parents get used to it, after they start seeing it all

around themselves, but it is still very puzzling to them to understand why

anyone would ever want to do those things. A generation ago it was the same

with teenage boys letting their hair grow like girls.

 

It is the changed values, mores, defining selfhood that leaves loving

parents who were chidren themselves under a whole set of different standards

and valuations, baffled and perplexed quite often about their chidren.

 

When today's parents were growing up, they were pushing against the fences

that their parents erected to shelter them from the dangers of the larger

world out there. The holes they poked in those fences were scary to the

parents who were trying to stop them. Only partially successfully in every

generation. The new parents have erected fences around their new territory,

and are just as scared when they see their kids knocking holes, sampling new

concepts, in their lives. They don't understand the new music even too well.

 

I agree with you that kids will continue to act as kids and grownups will

continue to act as grownups. Every generation nevertheless finds new aspects

to their world that the parents are not familiar with, at least somewhat

apprehensive about, and have difficulty understanding.

 

I thought Everson's interview of Dreiser is a very goo example of the

disdain that grown ups often show for the young generation. Everson was

young, but a dedicated brilliant person whose pacifict statement alone had

was saying a lot more than his elders were willing to take responsibility

for. Dreiser the great man was certainly one of the more enlightened human

beings of those times. He had to know what the place that Everson mentioned

represented. Still, he dismissed the young generation as wannabes who have

nothing to say themselves. I have certainly seen that same attitude strongly

expressed about the youth of the x generation.

 

I agree further that we all continue to make the same mistakes. I am not

sure that we are learning enough about them, about ourselves.

 

leon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Timothy K. Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 10:11 AM

Subject: Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

 

 

>At 12:14 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>>maybe this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates

>>>exactly why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of the

>>>grungekids) spends so much time bitching about how people don't really

>>>understand them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to

>>>understand...

>> 

>>     yeah, but that's the case throughout history; parents never

>>understand their kids habits/culture...

>> 

>> 

> 

>I think it is the opposite.  The parents understand all too well having

been

>there before.

> 

>Youngsters always think they are unique.

> 

>Youngsters also have more time and inclination to care about if they are

>"really understood".

> 

>Parents understand all too well, understanding is not the problem.

> 

>I think a lack of trust of faith in the youngster's ability to muddle

>through like the rest of humanity has done is more the crux of any friction

>than a lack of understanding.  This lack of faith though is based upon the

>strong understanding of the kids, so strong that there becomes and

>identification and a projection and then a protectionism wherein the parent

>sees the kid making all the same mistakes they made.  Thye forget they are

>also learning the same things they learned and having the necessary

>experiences they has as well.

> 

>So the parents make the same mistakes their parents made and the kids make

>the same mistakes the parents made as kids.

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:17:26 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History

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intro to queer?

 

cheryl broderick wrote:

 

> I have been looking at Joan Vollmer and Bill for the background to a short

>  story.

> Once again, it seems that there are discrepancies (right word?) between

>  different

> accounts of what happened.  Does anyone know where I can get a full, and

> hopefully correct version of that fatal day?  Joyce Johnson has them drinking

 at

> home, Miles has them in a room above a bar.  Johnson has Joan suggesting the

> routine, Miles (and WSB) has Bill suggesting it.  I know I've brought this up

>  before,

> but I'm more interested now due to it being research.

> 

> Tom. H.

> http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

> "When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:25:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      chancing ridicule and loving it!

 

             Untitled

 

      its about to rain

      the sky is swollen

      pregnant

      as am i

      with fullness

      with desire

      i ache for the coolness

      calmness

      serenity

      silver slips on my window

      tip-tap-tip

      music

      parted lips

      i am desperate for rain

      for solitude broken

      for droplets to hang on my eyelashes

      miracles in water lapping

      tenderness in blue

      me in a full skirt

      swirling around my ankles

      i twirl on my toes

      dance in small puddles

      rain goddess

      grey poetess

      mingle tingle churn

      what communion is this!

      this wet wine flesh

      this body cold rush

      dripping hair

      blankets of mud

      rain-stain-art

      rain as birth!

      rain as life!

      as maternal caresses

      as sunken sweetness

      as reward

      as renewal

       I am strong!

      power in the elements

      currents in my skin

      i offer prayers to pagan gods

      scream with passion

      call out to the mists

      hold the wind against my breasts

      i don't need lightning

      white heat

      mockery of the sun

      i am deaf to thunder

      i open to rain like virgin clouds

      i allow myself to be taken

      washed clean

      molded  holded   felt

      i am sculpted

      i am saved

      i don't need worship or form

      prayer or solididty

      i need liguid goodness

      drip-drop    father

      Holy Rain!

      i only believe in poetry......i only believe in poetry

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:25:02 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      hey, let's have a wsb reading that..

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combines the letters w/the work? the combo i know the most about is

Interzone(ed. by mr. grauerholz) and the letters to ginsberg 53-57.

i may be totally whacked, but i believe that wsb was to remark that the

pieces that became interzone and naked lunch were to found in his

letters to AG.

let me know if i'm wrong

(like i need to encourage anyone, <g>

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:31:29 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

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i grew up much more tightly bound to my generation than to my parents; i was

precocious in the sixties (as many of you know); and for reasons relating to

family traits. i had a genreation . i think that many of the punk attitudes

derived from kids like me needing to shock their parents, my peers, exhippy

parents. just a thought.

just another spin..

mc

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

 

> Personally, Ive blessed with parents that do understand, whatever it is

> there is to understand. I think most parents do, more than my peers care

> to realize.

> 

> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:32:09 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

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>Hello Joe,

> 

>I got nothing against you. I still enjoy the memories of your wonderful

>story from your youthful adventure. For that one alone you got my respect.

> 

>I don't think you disrespect me even though I am a felonious ex-con.

>However, your attempt to explain away (that's how it strikes me) your

>initial statement , just doeasn't make it for me. Frankly, some of it I

>don't quite understand. Some of it I question. You rattle off a list of

>names of prisons and you imagine what would happen to you if you mouthed

off

>in any of  them. If you are speaking from personal observation than what

you

>have observed is quite different from what I have seen over the years.

> 

>I haven't been in any of those  places you mention, but I can tell you from

>experience, not imagination, that in the maximum security facility in South

>Carolina people mouthed off to each other all the time. Same In Atlanta, El

>Paso, Terminal Island, Vacaville, San Quentin. Mouthing off was a very

>common occurence in all of those, plus others that I have done time in long

>enough to see for myself. Besides I don't see how it relates to your very

>clear statement that I responded to. In fact I could remember a small

>fraction of the ingenious, creative mouthing off explicatives that I heard

>constantly in all of these human congregations, I would would have a hot

>item for your bookshelves.

> 

>I am answering to the list because that's where the question arose. I am

>suggesting now that if you feel that we should continue our discussion of

>it, we can do it backchannell.

> 

>BTW, Got any other stories like that one? It would be a pleasured to read

>them if they are anywhere close to the one you shared with us.

> 

>Ciao

>leon

> 

>-----Original Message-----

>From: jo grant <jgrant@bookzen.com>

>To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

>Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 9:52 AM

>Subject: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

> 

> 

>>>-----Original Message-----

>>>From: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

>>>To: jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

>>>Date: Thursday, November 13, 1997 10:33 AM

>>>Subject: Re: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

>>> 

>>>>Hi Joe,

>>>>-----Original Message-----

>>>>From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

>>>>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>>>>Date: Thursday, November 13, 1997 9:11 AM

>>>>Subject: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>>>Just because a person has done a little time doesn't mean they cannot

be

>>>>>trusted. But when an excon slanders and lies about a person whose

>>>>>reputation is untarnished then that excon has to expect a little truth

>in

>>>>>return. It's something SOME excons learn to live with.

>> 

>> 

>>Leon,

>> 

>>I did not mean for my comments to be directed at you.

>> 

>>What I said (above) is true. If you've done time you know how people deal

>>with someone who makes false accusations and silly threats. You can

imagine

>>the response to that kind of "mouthing off" on the yard at Walpole,

>>Raiford, Angola, Marian, Levenworth, or any joint--other than the "country

>>clubs."

>> 

>>People who haven't done time occasionally lash out at someone who has gone

>>over the edge, in the truth department, by using "convicted" to make a

>>point about a person's trustworthiness. I didn't like it when Gerry did

it,

>>but I understood why he did it. The words that provoked his response, had

>>they been said, "on the yard" could very easily have been fatal. How many

>>times have you seen someone's mouth overload their ass.

>> 

>>One doesn't have to do time in maximum security to learn that, but it's

one

>>of the early lessons learned in there.

>> 

>>On the outside, ex-cons learn to live with "hurtful" comments that are

>>made--for whatever reasons. It never really works.  I've found that out,

>>and it appears, you have too. My complaint with Maher has nothing to do

>>with his being found guilty of a minor crime.

>> 

>>j grant

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>.-

>> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:33:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>

Subject:      James Laughlin, Dead at 83

Mime-Version: 1.0

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James Laughlin, Poet and  Publisher, Dead at 83

 

Associated Press 14-NOV-97

 

NORFOLK, Conn. (AP) James Laughlin, a poet and pioneering publisher who

introduced American readers to some of the best-known writers of this

century, died Wednesday of complications following a stroke. He was 83.

 

Laughlin died at his home, his family said. He was still an undergraduate

at Harvard University in 1936 when he founded New Directions with money

from his father and issued the first of the anthologies that he said were a

place "where experimentalists could test their inventions by publication."

 

His first book, "New Directions in Prose & Poetry," included  writings from

Henry Miller, Gertrude Stein, Ezra Pound, Wallace Stevens and William

Carlos Williams.

 

For more than 50 years, his anthologies showcased writers he considered

originals, among them Vladimir Nabokov, William Saroyan, Dylan Thomas,

Thomas Merton, James Agee, Delmore Schwartz, Lawrence Ferlinghetti and John

Hawkes and a host of others.

 

Laughlin's company became New Directions Publishing Corp., one of the

world's most influential book publishers.

 

 He brought the translated works of authors such as Jorge Luis Borges and

Garcia Lorca to the United States, and was Nabokov's first American

publisher.

 

A native of Pittsburgh, where his great-grandfather founded a family steel

business, Laughlin was still a teen-ager when he began getting his short

stories and poems published in small magazines.

 

Laughlin wrote several books of poetry, including "In Another Country,"

Stolen & Contaminated Poems" and "The Bird of Endless Time." At the time of

his death, he was writing his memoirs through a series of poems, his family

said.

 

 He won the National Book Foundation Medal for Distinguished Contribution

to American Letters in 1982, and the Robert Frost medal from the Poetry

Society of America in1989.

 

Survivors include his wife, Gertrude; two sons, a daughter and six

grandchildren.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:38:38 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

 

i agree except to say that there are the occasional exceptions to the rule,

thank god.  sadly, i think the real problem is communication starting with

birth.  if parents were more straight up and honest with their children in the

first place, both parents and children would have a hell of alot more trust

between them and could venture more into the grey areas of being alive.

 

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Tyson Ouellette

Sent:   Friday, November 14, 1997 9:14 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

 

>maybe this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates

>exactly why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of the

>grungekids) spends so much time bitching about how people don't really

>understand them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to

>understand...

 

     yeah, but that's the case throughout history; parents never

understand their kids habits/culture...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:43:01 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: chancing ridicule and loving it!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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h marlene : this conjures up for me countless dead shows, rainy ones and

one in which all rains down from heaven. however, i have a gender issue

:mother rain (sumtimes mo-fo rain). whips up the memory glands.

mc

 

Marlene Giraud wrote:

 

>              Untitled

> 

>       its about to rain

>       the sky is swollen

>       pregnant

>       as am i

>       with fullness

>       with desire

>       i ache for the coolness

>       calmness

>       serenity

>       silver slips on my window

>       tip-tap-tip

>       music

>       parted lips

>       i am desperate for rain

>       for solitude broken

>       for droplets to hang on my eyelashes

>       miracles in water lapping

>       tenderness in blue

>       me in a full skirt

>       swirling around my ankles

>       i twirl on my toes

>       dance in small puddles

>       rain goddess

>       grey poetess

>       mingle tingle churn

>       what communion is this!

>       this wet wine flesh

>       this body cold rush

>       dripping hair

>       blankets of mud

>       rain-stain-art

>       rain as birth!

>       rain as life!

>       as maternal caresses

>       as sunken sweetness

>       as reward

>       as renewal

>        I am strong!

>       power in the elements

>       currents in my skin

>       i offer prayers to pagan gods

>       scream with passion

>       call out to the mists

>       hold the wind against my breasts

>       i don't need lightning

>       white heat

>       mockery of the sun

>       i am deaf to thunder

>       i open to rain like virgin clouds

>       i allow myself to be taken

>       washed clean

>       molded  holded   felt

>       i am sculpted

>       i am saved

>       i don't need worship or form

>       prayer or solididty

>       i need liguid goodness

>       drip-drop    father

>       Holy Rain!

>       i only believe in poetry......i only believe in poetry

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:59:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ginsberg Artwork - forwarded inquiry

 

does anyone know of a web page where i could download the drawings made of

allen ginsberg the day he died that were featured in tricyle magazine?

 

thanks,

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:59:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History

In-Reply-To:  <199711141922.OAA15190@pike.sover.net>

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Despite Patricia's many admonitions against Morgan's Literary Outlaw, I

believe his presentation of the events surrounding Joan's death to be

about as good as it gets when it comes to biography. You are not going to

find anything approaching the Truth (Nothing is True, Everything is

Permitted (Permuted)). He presents the accounts of several eyewitnesses,

people that were there, and they all conflict with each other in various

ways, some minor, some MAJOR. I think what you are going to find is that

you can't find a truth, but only a sort of sordid assorted stories,

various permutations of the same event. The only thing we know for sure is

William pulled the trigger, and Joan died.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:23:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M .Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      The Dark Eye -WSB as character voice

Mime-Version: 1.0

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I just picked up an interesting 3-D animated, role-playing

adventure CD-ROM game that was inspired by the works of

Edgar Allen Poe.  It involves macbre plots, intrigue,

horror, etc.  Pretty cool actually.  I guess the point

I was going to make, is that WSB does the voice for

one of the main characters.  Not sure if this has

been brought up on the list yet?  But I thought someone

might like to look this up.  Not bad for $9.99!!

 

It's called _The Dark Eye_ and was put out by Inscope

multimedia.

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:54:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "IamAs I Be@aol.com" <IamAsIBe@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat and Kerouac books for sale

 

please might you be so kind to send me your beat books list?

much thnks

k

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:04:23 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: beat courses

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:36 AM 11/13/97 -0500, you wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> 

>> >From the Kerouac Cd -Rom:

> 

>>  And inscribed in his copy of Lolita is this:

>> 

>>  What decency really is, can never be outraged- This is a great book by the

>> world's most honest and smartest living writer. JK

> 

>Ahh, I agree almost completely (I'd call Burroughs the most honest). Funny

>though, I always thought Lolita paled in comparison with Bend Sinister,

>Pnin, and Pale Fire. It's just the one that produced the most controversy.

>Pnin should be required reading for any faculty or student involved in the

>university game. Does Nabokov appear on many American Lit syllabi? I

>haven't seen him listed for courses in and around my school.

> 

>Neil

> 

> 

I'm certain he is where the literary canon is still honored.  I

was taught Lolita in 1965, is a sophomore English Lit class.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:18:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen

In-Reply-To:  <199711141932.OAA18051@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I cant say that anything I do shocks my parents because I had two older

sisters to pave the way for me. Even still, my dad is the kind of guy who

understands that teenagers do things (ie drinking and drugs) and in my

house, it was dont ask, dont tell. He didnt want to know anything about

our exploits and I think part of it is because by knowing, he is

parentally obligated to chasiste us in some way and we all know what a

waste of time that is...

 

 

 

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> i grew up much more tightly bound to my generation than to my parents; i was

> precocious in the sixties (as many of you know); and for reasons relating to

> family traits. i had a genreation . i think that many of the punk attitudes

> derived from kids like me needing to shock their parents, my peers, exhippy

> parents. just a thought.

> just another spin..

> mc

> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> 

> > Personally, Ive blessed with parents that do understand, whatever it is

> > there is to understand. I think most parents do, more than my peers care

> > to realize.

> >

> > The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> > Sure-JK

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:29:31 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      christmas

MIME-Version: 1.0

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my shoice of a story is william and james coming to kansas and finding

the western land and how it came to be written.  i have always thought

it interesting about william coming back to the midwest.

 

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--------------51D825F731AD--

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:22:47 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Greatest Novels ...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:31 PM 11/11/97 -0500, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-11-11 17:31:07 EST, you write:

> 

><< I think Selby is incredibly under-appreciated. I think he's a master. >>

>Hubert Selby is a monster writer and should be discussed on this list more

>often.  I heartily agree with your selections, Glenn, but I'm curious as to

>why you left off Last Exit to Brooklyn.  Isn't it as least as good as The

>Demon and The Room?

> 

> 

Did Selby have other books besides Last Exit?  I read this one just a few

years ago and thought there was more understanding of sexuality in all its

disguises, in the book, than in any other I have read before or since.  It

has an understanding of homosexuality in it that I have not seen equalled

in any other novel, since.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:23:01 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: great american novel

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:12 AM 11/12/97 -0400, you wrote:

>This list is fascinating  and growing fatter, healthier. Wondering if

>anyone has read and likes/hates/indifferent to E.L. Doctorow?  A few

>titles: Daniel, Ragtime, Loon Lake, Worlds Fair, Billy Bathgate, The

>Waterworks.  To me, his books evince poignant, lyrical, encyclopedic,

>historical, American, tragic voice like no other.

> 

>Preston

> 

> 

I hated Ragtime because it seemed to read and drag like history.  It

seemed portentous, and I was put off by that.  I read Loon Lake after

that and like its aping of the style of Raymond Chandler, among others.

I sort of gave up on Doctorow, but I haven't forgotten him.  He seems

a master of other people's styles.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:23:03 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: method and meaning

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:11 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>> 

>>Plot is not all that matters. Faulkner told the whole plot of the novel,

>Absalom, Absalom by the end of the first chapter. What he did was fashion

>each chapter after the first by restating the various "truths" of each

>character about what happened with Sutpen. Shreve wants to know from Quentin

>Compson what the 'South" was like...each character has a different take on

>this but it is the structuring of the novel that makes it what it is and not

>the plot. Plot is a vehicle for expression, not necessarily linear or

>non-linear so much as it gives the writer a place to hang his hat.

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

> 

I read Absalom, Absalom and don't recall the entire plot being

show in the first chapter.  I read the first 100 pages twice.

It was a terrible book to read, with everyone rehashing the

same stuff over and over, and then adding one more fact to the

accumulated plot.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:22:33 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: star wars and Kerouac?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

This is an interesting thread.  I saw the Campbell

TV shows, but only liked the first two, the ones where

Campbell identifies the universal meanings of many

symbols.  Only on rerelease did I learn about Lucas

writing the Campbell symbols into Star Wars.  I have

never heard anywhere else that he hired Campbell as

an advisor on the movie. I certainly agree the Moyer's

films on Campbell were more interesting to me than

Star Wars.

 

A friend of mine has a load of Campbell lectures on

audiotape which he keeps promising to lend me.  Then

he doesn't come through.  He told me the Campbell

lectures are better than the Campbell books. I have

read none of the Campbell books.  Does someone else

have another opionion?

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:22:36 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Tougue in Cheek

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:34 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Just thought I'd let you all know that I got my tounge pierced this

>afternoon.

> 

 

 

Its very sad.  Do you think you can get the procedure reversed?

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:25:26 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Joan Volllmer(-Adams) Burroughs

 

also try "Women of the Beat Generation" by Brenda Knight.  Joan's dates are

1924 - 1951.  i haven't read the section yet, but it should prove helpful.

 

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of cheryl broderick

Sent:   Friday, November 14, 1997 2:46 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Joan Volllmer(-Adams) Burroughs

 

While I'm on the subject, does anyone know of anything by Joan, letters,

 stories,

poems?  I think there's an archive somewhere, but it'll be in the states,

 which'll

make it difficult for me to get at, if I was even going to take it that far.

 When was

she born? (Well, really, how old was she when she died?)  Are there are other

accounts of Joan apart from WSB biographies and Minor Characters?  I suppose

there might be something in Off The Road... better go check that one.

 

Cheers,

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:26:15 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.95q.971114145038.5696F-100000@picard.math.uwaterloo.ca>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Neil Hennessy wrote:

 

> Despite Patricia's many admonitions against Morgan's Literary Outlaw, I

 

I, like many others, have greatly enjoyed Patricia's stories of WSB, but

was also surprised to hear her say that Morgan's book was unreliable in

certain respects. I had thought it was pretty good--but then, I didn't

know WSB personally. So Patricia, if you're willing, I would love to have

some more specifics as to what exactly, Morgan got wrong?

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:07:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      CCI

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

CCI

(For Leon and Joe, by an outsider)

 

Central Correctional Institute.

A granite fortress,

Mined on the Saluda River

By the inmates.

 

That was before THE war.

 

Death house.

Pee Wee Gaskins blew up Rudolph Tyner

And they made a tv movie of it.

Outside were baseball fields, basketball courts, and weights.

And row after row of barbed razor wire helix curving back

Until it reinvented itself.

Machine guns in the turrets.

Right on the Columbia canal.

 

In this cell block the ghosts howl,

And you do not have to strain to hear them.

 

Now, it is almost gone.  All but the granite.

First they made a park on the old canal.

Then Bell South built a building to house

Busy executives of this modern society.

So, they moved the prison, tore it down,

Will soon build condominiums.

Haunted by the rastafarian dreams,

by the death row marches,

by the electrocution of a teen age boy,

by Tyner turning on his radio,

by three time users doing 25 with no parole.

 

It has been the home of noble spirits too,

But, alas, they do not haunt,

Or if they do, are drowned by banshee.

 

CCI,

Central Correctional Institute,

Maximum Security,

Not much correction.

Turn your head like you can forget.

In the night, they shall hear the voices.

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:13:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Hey Sherri

MIME-Version: 1.0

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What was that song Sherri, the one I liked when I was the Child. It

doesn't seem to work as good these days.

 

Teach your children well

The parent's hell

Can slowly go by,

Don't you ever ask them why,

If they told you you would sigh,

Just look at them and smile,

And know they love you.

 

An interesting point you make in your post about the generation

thingy.  Last night's ER was all about that distance and what creates

it.  It was very well done for tv.  In one scene the sexy guy's

character (Clooney) said to the dork guy, Mark?, that his father being

there every night, even when he said nothing, was an act of love.  It

caused me to rethink some of my observations.

 

As children, it is hard for us to know what our parents have been

through and what decisions and experinces got them to be who they

were.  As parents, it is hard for me to get my children to see what

the difference is.  I think honesty is the best we can do.

 

Take care,

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:13:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: star wars and Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mike Rice wrote:

> 

> This is an interesting thread.  I saw the Campbell

> TV shows, but only liked the first two, the ones where

> Campbell identifies the universal meanings of many

> symbols.  Only on rerelease did I learn about Lucas

> writing the Campbell symbols into Star Wars.  I have

> never heard anywhere else that he hired Campbell as

> an advisor on the movie. I certainly agree the Moyer's

> films on Campbell were more interesting to me than

> Star Wars.

> 

> A friend of mine has a load of Campbell lectures on

> audiotape which he keeps promising to lend me.  Then

> he doesn't come through.  He told me the Campbell

> lectures are better than the Campbell books. I have

> read none of the Campbell books.  Does someone else

> have another opionion?

> 

> Mike Rice

 

The lectures are better -- but get the videos he's more human that way.

(even has to check his watch to see how he's doing on time).  I believe

it's called Transformations of Myth Through Time.

 

my local library had it.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:41:47 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Greatest Novels ...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mike Rice wrote:

 

> Did Selby have other books besides Last Exit?  I read this one just a few

> years ago and thought there was more understanding of sexuality in all

its

> disguises, in the book, than in any other I have read before or since.

It

> has an understanding of homosexuality in it that I have not seen equaled

> in any other novel, since.

 

This summer I picked up a Quality Paperback Book Club three-for-one edition

of Selby's "Last Exit...," "The Room," and "Requiem For A Dream."  Up until

I got this book, I had only been aware of "Last Exit" as well.  What a

powerful writer indeed.  Selby writes in his introduction that he is

concerned with what happens when people lose control over themselves and/or

their situation...when that happens, he paints horrifying, grim portraits

of life being sucked down an irresistible vortex.  Not light reading for a

sunny summer's day, by any means, but meaty, gutsy, honest stuff.

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:04:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Special! Selected L...

 

Paul from Kerouac Quarterly has offered copies of Kerouac's Selected Letters

hardcover for $15.00 - with free copy of the KQ

This is a great deal...

But before you buy it, please note that we also have copies of the book

available for the same price (orig published price was $29.95) but our copies

are signed by Ann Charters.....at no additional charge....

Thanks -

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:47:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      poetry places (fwd)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

 Hey guys,

A friend asked me to pass along the following website for poets...

 <A HREF="http://www.gis.net/~levesque2/contactinformation.html">Poetry Inform

ation</A>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:24:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Special! Selected L...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:04 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Paul from Kerouac Quarterly has offered copies of Kerouac's Selected Letters

>hardcover for $15.00 - with free copy of the KQ

>This is a great deal...

>But before you buy it, please note that we also have copies of the book

>available for the same price (orig published price was $29.95) but our copies

>are signed by Ann Charters.....at no additional charge....

>Thanks -

>Jeffrey

>Water Row Books

> 

We will not be undersold! Selected Letters Volume I (Hardcover 1st Edition

Barnd New! and The Kerouac Quarterly No. 2 for $10.00 plus $2.00 P/H.

Thanks! Paul of TKQ. . .

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:58:06 -0500

Reply-To:     tb2867a@american.edu

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Bryer <tb2867a@AMERICAN.EDU>

Organization: American University

Subject:      Beats as source for 60s counterculture

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Does anybody know of any titles (literature or otherwise) looking at the

Beats of the 50s as a source and influence on the countercultural

ideology of the sixties?

 

Thanks,

 

Tom

--

Next Meeting for Third Party League:

 

   Nov. 20th at 8 PM

 

Hear different political perspectives!

This week will feature the voice of DSA.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:22:52 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Special! Selected L...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> 

> At 08:04 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >Paul from Kerouac Quarterly has offered copies of Kerouac's Selected Letters

> >hardcover for $15.00 - with free copy of the KQ

> >This is a great deal...

> >But before you buy it, please note that we also have copies of the book

> >available for the same price (orig published price was $29.95) but our copies

> >are signed by Ann Charters.....at no additional charge....

> >Thanks -

> >Jeffrey

> >Water Row Books

> >

> We will not be undersold! Selected Letters Volume I (Hardcover 1st Edition

> Barnd New! and The Kerouac Quarterly No. 2 for $10.00 plus $2.00 P/H.

> Thanks! Paul of TKQ. . .

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

i love this list!!!!!

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:33:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Special! Selected L...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

> >

> > At 08:04 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

> > >Paul from Kerouac Quarterly has offered copies of Kerouac's Selected

 Letters

> > >hardcover for $15.00 - with free copy of the KQ

> > >This is a great deal...

> > >But before you buy it, please note that we also have copies of the book

> > >available for the same price (orig published price was $29.95) but our

 copies

> > >are signed by Ann Charters.....at no additional charge....

> > >Thanks -

> > >Jeffrey

> > >Water Row Books

> > >

> > We will not be undersold! Selected Letters Volume I (Hardcover 1st Edition

> > Barnd New! and The Kerouac Quarterly No. 2 for $10.00 plus $2.00 P/H.

> > Thanks! Paul of TKQ. . .

> > "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

> >                                            Henry David Thoreau

> i love this list!!!!!

> p

 

whadamybidforIgottenbucksdoIhear 9 bucks anyone give 9 bucs?????

 

auctioneer

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:05:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      free enterprise

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Free enterprise is a beautiful thing.  Ain't it.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:26:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      correction/not users, losers

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

CCI

(For Leon and Joe, by an outsider)

 

Central Correctional Institute.

A granite fortress,

Mined on the Saluda River

By the inmates.

 

That was before THE war.

 

Death house.

Pee Wee Gaskins blew up Rudolph Tyner

And they made a tv movie of it.

Outside were baseball fields, basketball courts, and weights.

And row after row of barbed razor wire helix curving back

Until it reinvented itself.

Machine guns in the turrets.

Right on the Columbia canal.

 

In this cell block the ghosts howl,

And you do not have to strain to hear them.

 

Now, it is almost gone.  All but the granite.

First they made a park on the old canal.

Then Bell South built a building to house

Busy executives of this modern society.

So, they moved the prison, tore it down,

Will soon build condominiums.

Haunted by the rastafarian dreams,

by the death row marches,

by the electrocution of a teen age boy,

by Tyner turning on his radio,

by three time losers doing 25 with no parole.

 

It has been the home of noble spirits too,

But, alas, they do not haunt,

Or if they do, are drowned by banshee.

 

CCI,

Central Correctional Institute,

Maximum Security,

Not much correction.

Turn your head like you can forget.

In the night, they shall hear the voices.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:37:22 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: method and meaning

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mike,

 

You are usually right on these things, but I am dissapointed that you

didn't like "Absolom".  Yes it is repetitive, the point being to listen

to the different way each character sees the same story.  Admittedly the

plot does not race.  But if you like the way Faulkner's language flows

it's like sipping bourbon.  If you don't it would be hard going.  I

found the repetiveness had a nice effect, rather like the familiar

epithets you get in Homer.  But then I've got to admit to having a real

weakness for Faulkner--or having in the past--haven't read him in a long

time.

 

James Stauffer

 

Mike Rice wrote:

 

> >

> I read Absalom, Absalom and don't recall the entire plot being

> show in the first chapter.  I read the first 100 pages twice.

> It was a terrible book to read, with everyone rehashing the

> same stuff over and over, and then adding one more fact to the

> accumulated plot.

> 

> Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 04:38:20 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Nightmares

 

Jail of concrete,

padded walls,

mattresses rotten with sweat of tears

and years of neglect.

a lonely toilet bowl sulks quietly in the corner

waiting for drops of piss,

a shock of yellow in the porcelain hole.

inside I hear the clank of bars,

the rattle of chains,

the sound of locks without keys.

I see the pacing and gesturing frustration

of a man without a face, without a soul.

 

The crying in the night.

the wailing, moaning of men

who feel no remorse.

the cacophonic quarrel of voices long gone,

bed long empty,

sinks unwashed.

And stinking cells,

unbarred,

with doors agape,

like dumb mouths, wide (aghast) with pity   surprise   disgust

And I quake

And I can't breathe in here,

mommy.

don't shut me in

can't see in the dark

and the clank of chains

the viscious monotony of whisperers

plotting, plotting

of death

and the plodding plodding thunderous footsteps

and the greasy, wet, stale, breath

of tombs. . . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:47:14 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: James Laughlin, Dead at 83

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I would hate to think of what it might have been like to have all those

wonderful New Directions books.  "Nude Erections" as Ezra Pound called

it.

 

James Stauffer

 

Judith Campbell wrote:

> 

> James Laughlin, Poet and  Publisher, Dead at 83

> 

> Associated Press 14-NOV-97

> 

> NORFOLK, Conn. (AP) James Laughlin, a poet and pioneering publisher who

> introduced American readers to some of the best-known writers of this

> century, died Wednesday of complications following a stroke. He was 83.

> 

> Laughlin died at his home, his family said. He was still an undergraduate

> at Harvard University in 1936 when he founded New Directions with money

> from his father and issued the first of the anthologies that he said were a

> place "where experimentalists could test their inventions by publication."

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:38:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>

Subject:      Re: Greatest Novels ...

In-Reply-To:  <199711142346.RAA26823@mail.execpc.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 17:41 14/11/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Mike Rice wrote:

> 

>> Did Selby have other books besides Last Exit?  I read this one just a few

>> years ago and thought there was more understanding of sexuality in all

>its

>> disguises, in the book, than in any other I have read before or since.

>It

>> has an understanding of homosexuality in it that I have not seen equaled

>> in any other novel, since.

> 

>This summer I picked up a Quality Paperback Book Club three-for-one edition

>of Selby's "Last Exit...," "The Room," and "Requiem For A Dream."  Up until

>I got this book, I had only been aware of "Last Exit" as well.  What a

>powerful writer indeed.  Selby writes in his introduction that he is

>concerned with what happens when people lose control over themselves and/or

>their situation...when that happens, he paints horrifying, grim portraits

>of life being sucked down an irresistible vortex.  Not light reading for a

>sunny summer's day, by any means, but meaty, gutsy, honest stuff.

> 

>Jym

> 

He's had problems with distribution in the past. A lot of stuff was out of

print, I think, for quite a while. But now Henry Rollins is distributing

his stuff thru his 2.13.61 label Selby's books are much easier to get a

hold of. I have a signed copy of "The Room".

 

Glenn C.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 23:50:46 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: christmas

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Well

to address joan and such, there are many things of interest, but to be

honest i am not interested in rehashing "that'' event.  i would be much

more interested in finding out more about her, her life and her life

with william and others.  I first really heard joan stories from evie K

in a motel room in lawrence from one oclock to I bet 3:30. (the ramada

inn at 6th and iowa) during the reunion. She needed some extra carry on

luggage so i ran some sample to her.  I sold her two peices, for a buck

each.  She also discussed joan, who was her friend and roomate in this

little chap book that i have several copies of. It was a glimpse of an

interesting woman. Evie was also interesting, a little sad, is a

justified remark. i have always felt that jack marrying evie was

protrayed on this list as too much of a marraige of convenience and not

as a true marriage, convenient it might of been but i also think,

(without any thing but from meeting her and hearing an occasional story

from william) that it was a very real relationship.

 I was cleaning house for william when he wrote the preface to Queer, it

was a terrible hard time for him.  he suffered greatly writing it. One

day He read some of it to me , and when i lay weeping on the couch, left

the manuscript for me to finish while he puttered feeding the cats.

James came over, and one of those signifigant looks passsed between

william and james.  I felt that i had just experiance something so raw

and bare, i felt that this is what it means to write, it is to SEE.

that a lot of why i think of william as a genius is not just the command

of language, it is the the ability to go to the bone. I got married and

had lena, and there were moments when william would talk of his

marriage, and child and never was it more than a brief remark.  Once

when we were driving along, william was handing lena her bottle and at

one point she went nick nick nick and kind of threw it at him, he said

that she was done. then said some story about bill jr and bottles, a

glancing remark. I would just sit and be quiet, which by the way, i

never am quiet, i usually sit and say something, a bit off( like old

fish) at those funny moments.  William was a very caring and tender

person.  One day he handed me a set of towels that he explained had been

joans. that i should take them.

 

Ted morgan, to be frank i didn't like him.  I found him to be one of

these guys that would kind of  lie by retricence or fabricate by

twisting the truth. at no point when i was speaking to him did i feel

that he was speaking to me or looking at me. it was he was posing.  I

turned the invisible women around him and i am sure by mutual consent.

He probably didn't notice me.  This description of my imppression of him

as a spook is a little blunt but i am not the scholar to address his

book, it probably would be adequate for finding sources or as one way of

looking at differenct parts of a story but from the things i was

familiar with, ted looked with jaundice eye and freaky interpretations.

 

I read most of the western land in one long night and then onother.

falling asleep i  had a dream about the western lands that rocked me.

it was full color, dark blue roiling sky, turgid brown river and

william  striding across the field, south of the trees, with his stick,

yelling at me. there were animals crawling in the weeds, around us and

ahead of us, seen, unseen and part of some strange earth movement.  Here

sometimes the prairie blows and it feels like the geography is moving

through the air, rather than the air is moving through the weeds. i

think western lands is my favorite, and would make a fucking great play.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:30:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: the last time i committed suicide

 

Here's something I just found out about a few months ago that was quite

surprising to me.  I got a call from Jamie Cassady (Carolyn's daughter) on

our 1-800-KER-OUAC line asking if me and my wife and I wanted to come to the

SF premiere of LTICS.  We were unable to go due to scheduling conflict but I

thanked her for invting us.  She said she had to invite us as we were

instrumental in the film getting made!

 

I didn't know what she was talking about and she explained when we had

Carolyn in for a book signing back in 1994 one of the people who showed up

was the guy who eventually wound up making the film and he invited Carolyn

and Jamie and John Allen to a bar across the street from our store and

pitched them the idea that eventually became LTICS.

 

I saw the movie on video about two months ago and although I thought it had

some good parts I was disappointed in that I thought it was way too

disjointed at times. Now I realize that was the intent, of course and sure it

worked in the Cherry Mary letter but at times I don't believe it transferred

to film well. I thought some of the scenes went on way too long and even when

you thought the scene was over it would start up again and not be over!  I

did think Kennu stole the show!

 

BTW, I was told Carolyn wasn't thrilled with the film either. Her complaints

had more to do with historical accuracy however, like "Neal woud have never

worn those shoes" or "he wouldn't use those words".

 

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:49:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: correction/not users, losers

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Bentz,

 

        I really, really liked this Bentz....very atmospheric. Part of my

teenage years I lived in Danbury, CT near the FCI, Federal Correctional

Institute. It had the rep of being a real playground / country club of a

place. Daniel Berrigan was there along with other prominent War resistors,

but mostly it was populated with guys with the greatest looking raw silk

suits you've ever seen. We had them at our church each Sunday parking cars!

A place of light and ease....not CCI.

 

        Antoine

 

                ********************

from Bentz Kirby

 

CCI

(For Leon and Joe, by an outsider)

 

Central Correctional Institute.

A granite fortress,

Mined on the Saluda River

By the inmates.

 

That was before THE war.

 

Death house.

Pee Wee Gaskins blew up Rudolph Tyner

And they made a tv movie of it.

Outside were baseball fields, basketball courts, and weights.

And row after row of barbed razor wire helix curving back

Until it reinvented itself.

Machine guns in the turrets.

Right on the Columbia canal.

 

In this cell block the ghosts howl,

And you do not have to strain to hear them.

 

Now, it is almost gone.  All but the granite.

First they made a park on the old canal.

Then Bell South built a building to house

Busy executives of this modern society.

So, they moved the prison, tore it down,

Will soon build condominiums.

Haunted by the rastafarian dreams,

by the death row marches,

by the electrocution of a teen age boy,

by Tyner turning on his radio,

by three time losers doing 25 with no parole.

 

It has been the home of noble spirits too,

But, alas, they do not haunt,

Or if they do, are drowned by banshee.

 

CCI,

Central Correctional Institute,

Maximum Security,

Not much correction.

Turn your head like you can forget.

In the night, they shall hear the voices.

 

--

 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:54:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Nightmares

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Shani,

 

        Is this something you did a while ago or have been working on? or

was it inspired by Bentz's e-mail on CCI? I like this also - very vivid.

 

                Antoine

 

                ****************

 

from Shani St.John

Subject:      Nightmares

To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

Jail of concrete,

padded walls,

mattresses rotten with sweat of tears

and years of neglect.

a lonely toilet bowl sulks quietly in the corner

waiting for drops of piss,

a shock of yellow in the porcelain hole.

inside I hear the clank of bars,

the rattle of chains,

the sound of locks without keys.

I see the pacing and gesturing frustration

of a man without a face, without a soul.

 

The crying in the night.

the wailing, moaning of men

who feel no remorse.

the cacophonic quarrel of voices long gone,

bed long empty,

sinks unwashed.

And stinking cells,

unbarred,

with doors agape,

like dumb mouths, wide (aghast) with pity   surprise   disgust

And I quake

And I can't breathe in here,

mommy.

don't shut me in

can't see in the dark

and the clank of chains

the viscious monotony of whisperers

plotting, plotting

of death

and the plodding plodding thunderous footsteps

and the greasy, wet, stale, breath

of tombs. . . .

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:19:40 -0800

Reply-To:     mrfrendly@earthlink.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Wes Griffiths <mrfrendly@EARTHLINK.NET>

Organization: Otto & Quinn's Snow Delivery

Subject:      Re: Beat and Kerouac books for sale

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

Attila Gyenis wrote:

> 

> Hello,

> 

> If you are interested in a short list of Kerouac and beat books for sale

> (most are collectible) please e mail me and I will send you the list.

> 

> thanks

> Attila

would you mind sending me the list

thanks

--

++++Mo'tH. FrkQdL%;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

++++Wes Griffiths  (mrfrendly@earthlink.net);;;;;;;;;;;;;

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 04:24:02 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: James Laughlin, Dead at 83

In-Reply-To:  <346D2952.4B50@pacbell.net>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> I would hate to think of what it might have been like [not?] to have all

those

> wonderful New Directions books.  "Nude Erections" as Ezra Pound called

> it.

 

All Things Considered on NPR had a lengthy feature on Laughlin on Fri.

afternoon, incl. some snippets of Ezra Pound reading.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:25:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: method and meaning

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Mike,

> 

> You are usually right on these things, but I am dissapointed that you

> didn't like "Absolom".  Yes it is repetitive, the point being to listen

> to the different way each character sees the same story.  Admittedly the

> plot does not race.  But if you like the way Faulkner's language flows

> it's like sipping bourbon.  If you don't it would be hard going.  I

> found the repetiveness had a nice effect, rather like the familiar

> epithets you get in Homer.  But then I've got to admit to having a real

> weakness for Faulkner--or having in the past--haven't read him in a long

> time.

> 

> James Stauffer

 

James:

 

I forget the exact name, but I remember well the first time I really read a

Faulkner work.  (Was it Clear Light in August?)  His poetic use of language

in the novel form was a true joy to read.  I never became a "fan" like I did

of Wolfe and Kerouac, but he truly is a great writer.  I have never read

Absalom though.  But the way you describe it, the book seems like it would

have some very realistic points.  That is, how does the story differ when

seen through different eyes.  That sounds like realism and an ambitious

project.  I may just have to go to the library!

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:22:55 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: christmas

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

patricia we are so very lucky to have you here among us. i  could "listen"

to you all day. my guess that the heart of the shooting was found in the

preface to queer is validated here, and then so enriched by your and wsb's

humanity.

thankyou

mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Well

> to address joan and such, there are many things of interest, but to be

> honest i am not interested in rehashing "that'' event.  i would be much

> more interested in finding out more about her, her life and her life

> with william and others.  I first really heard joan stories from evie K

> in a motel room in lawrence from one oclock to I bet 3:30. (the ramada

> inn at 6th and iowa) during the reunion. She needed some extra carry on

> luggage so i ran some sample to her.  I sold her two peices, for a buck

> each.  She also discussed joan, who was her friend and roomate in this

> little chap book that i have several copies of. It was a glimpse of an

> interesting woman. Evie was also interesting, a little sad, is a

> justified remark. i have always felt that jack marrying evie was

> protrayed on this list as too much of a marraige of convenience and not

> as a true marriage, convenient it might of been but i also think,

> (without any thing but from meeting her and hearing an occasional story

> from william) that it was a very real relationship.

>  I was cleaning house for william when he wrote the preface to Queer, it

> was a terrible hard time for him.  he suffered greatly writing it. One

> day He read some of it to me , and when i lay weeping on the couch, left

> the manuscript for me to finish while he puttered feeding the cats.

> James came over, and one of those signifigant looks passsed between

> william and james.  I felt that i had just experiance something so raw

> and bare, i felt that this is what it means to write, it is to SEE.

> that a lot of why i think of william as a genius is not just the command

> of language, it is the the ability to go to the bone. I got married and

> had lena, and there were moments when william would talk of his

> marriage, and child and never was it more than a brief remark.  Once

> when we were driving along, william was handing lena her bottle and at

> one point she went nick nick nick and kind of threw it at him, he said

> that she was done. then said some story about bill jr and bottles, a

> glancing remark. I would just sit and be quiet, which by the way, i

> never am quiet, i usually sit and say something, a bit off( like old

> fish) at those funny moments.  William was a very caring and tender

> person.  One day he handed me a set of towels that he explained had been

> joans. that i should take them.

> 

> Ted morgan, to be frank i didn't like him.  I found him to be one of

> these guys that would kind of  lie by retricence or fabricate by

> twisting the truth. at no point when i was speaking to him did i feel

> that he was speaking to me or looking at me. it was he was posing.  I

> turned the invisible women around him and i am sure by mutual consent.

> He probably didn't notice me.  This description of my imppression of him

> as a spook is a little blunt but i am not the scholar to address his

> book, it probably would be adequate for finding sources or as one way of

> looking at differenct parts of a story but from the things i was

> familiar with, ted looked with jaundice eye and freaky interpretations.

> 

> I read most of the western land in one long night and then onother.

> falling asleep i  had a dream about the western lands that rocked me.

> it was full color, dark blue roiling sky, turgid brown river and

> william  striding across the field, south of the trees, with his stick,

> yelling at me. there were animals crawling in the weeds, around us and

> ahead of us, seen, unseen and part of some strange earth movement.  Here

> sometimes the prairie blows and it feels like the geography is moving

> through the air, rather than the air is moving through the weeds. i

> think western lands is my favorite, and would make a fucking great play.

> patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:46:21 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: ron whitehead's poetry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Ron Whitehead wrote:

 

> Constantly Risking Reality

> 

> the reality principle is just another scam

> rationality on a stick is the real insane

> 

> absurd flim flam what's too real is to

> deal with the new dogmad state religioned

> 

> poetry police are moving in cornering

> trianglestrangling those free thinkers

> 

> freedom fighters forcing them into

> neckties nooses uniforms for all

> 

> schoolchildren their civil rights stop

> at the school door so we can protect

> 

> them from the violence of the streets

> make them all the same which was

> 

> the original intent of public education

> they're just a little behind on reaching

> 

> their goals but the realists are getting

> ever closer to fulfilling their shopping

> 

> mall cathedral unchristian coalition

> new age government dreamlife reality

> 

> principle lie life lies is what they be

> selling shoveling sticking ramming

> 

> our throats don't buy it don't buy

> their materialist the only reality is

> 

> the material world truth don't drink

> their rationality juice keep falling

> 

> keep failing into your subterranean

> serumed dream

> 

> Ron Whitehead

> 10/07/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:47:51 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      more whitehead poetry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Ron Whitehead wrote:

 

> Tapping My Own Phone

> 

> I'm going straight bought myself a flat top

> haircut so stiff I can carry a tray of martinis

> 

> waiting on people someone to open up her

> purse and give me a tip cause I don't have

> 

> a clue anymore as to what's going on but

> I do know that I'm one step ahead tapping

> 

> my own phone to hear myself talking with

> people who used to be my friends listening

> 

> so I can correct myself before they do and

> I've got a surveillance camera in my abandoned

> 

> car across the street watching myself replaying

> the tape so I can see if I'm acting funny before

> 

> they catch me doing something I shouldn't

> like yesterday I spotted myself walking too

> 

> fast and I heard myself talking too loud yes

> I've got the deep fear paranoia anxiety despair

> 

> and suicide blues but I'm making sure I don't

> do nothing else wrong cause I done screwed

> 

> up so many times I cornered myself into a

> backstreet deadend alley of paranoia and every

> 

> time I hear an airplane or helicopter or car

> door slam I know The Secret Service the FBI

> 

> and the IRS Swat Teams have finally arrived

> cause I published a poem by the President of

> 

> The United States of America without his

> fully conscious permission and I'm sure I

> 

> haven't paid enough taxes cause I've got no

> income yet somehow I keep on doing things

> 

> like eating every once in a while and paying

> a light bill or two but how do I do it they're

> 

> gonna ask what's the source of your income

> and how come you don't come to see us

> 

> anymore so yes I've become a little jumpy

> but I'm staying one step ahead tapping my

> 

> own phone videotaping my every move

> watching myself day and night replaying

> 

> the tapes cause I got a bad bad bad case

> of the deep fear paranoia anxiety despair

> 

> and suicide blues

> 

> Ron Whitehead

> 10/08/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:32:10 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: christmas

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

  I felt that i had just experiance something so raw

> and bare, i felt that this is what it means to write, it is to SEE.

> that a lot of why i think of william as a genius is not just the command

> of language, it is the the ability to go to the bone.

> patricia

 

i really really liked these words.  i enjoyed the entire post as always

but these struck with such resonance.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:25:41 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      i'm here.

In-Reply-To:  <346C55E9.2140@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

cari amici,

if you point yr browser to

http://www.comune.venezia.it/citta.htm

you can exactly found in which venetian city area i'm living

it's marked in the map as

13 - S.Lorenzo-XXV Aprile

i dunno if this is any interst but i posted

and excuse me for the intrusion,

un saluti a tutti,

rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:18:22 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: CCI

 

Bentz, thanks for sharing this,  really grabs the heart.

ciao,  sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R. Bentz Kirby

Sent:   Friday, November 14, 1997 3:07 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        CCI

 

CCI

(For Leon and Joe, by an outsider)

 

Central Correctional Institute.

A granite fortress,

Mined on the Saluda River

By the inmates.

 

That was before THE war.

 

Death house.

Pee Wee Gaskins blew up Rudolph Tyner

And they made a tv movie of it.

Outside were baseball fields, basketball courts, and weights.

And row after row of barbed razor wire helix curving back

Until it reinvented itself.

Machine guns in the turrets.

Right on the Columbia canal.

 

In this cell block the ghosts howl,

And you do not have to strain to hear them.

 

Now, it is almost gone.  All but the granite.

First they made a park on the old canal.

Then Bell South built a building to house

Busy executives of this modern society.

So, they moved the prison, tore it down,

Will soon build condominiums.

Haunted by the rastafarian dreams,

by the death row marches,

by the electrocution of a teen age boy,

by Tyner turning on his radio,

by three time users doing 25 with no parole.

 

It has been the home of noble spirits too,

But, alas, they do not haunt,

Or if they do, are drowned by banshee.

 

CCI,

Central Correctional Institute,

Maximum Security,

Not much correction.

Turn your head like you can forget.

In the night, they shall hear the voices.

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:20:54 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: ron whitehead's poetry

 

these are wonderful.  right in the center of the bull's-eye.  thanks for

posting Ron's poems Marie.

 

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marie Countryman

Sent:   Friday, November 14, 1997 11:46 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: ron whitehead's poetry

 

Ron Whitehead wrote:

 

> Constantly Risking Reality

> 

> the reality principle is just another scam

> rationality on a stick is the real insane

> 

> absurd flim flam what's too real is to

> deal with the new dogmad state religioned

> 

> poetry police are moving in cornering

> trianglestrangling those free thinkers

> 

> freedom fighters forcing them into

> neckties nooses uniforms for all

> 

> schoolchildren their civil rights stop

> at the school door so we can protect

> 

> them from the violence of the streets

> make them all the same which was

> 

> the original intent of public education

> they're just a little behind on reaching

> 

> their goals but the realists are getting

> ever closer to fulfilling their shopping

> 

> mall cathedral unchristian coalition

> new age government dreamlife reality

> 

> principle lie life lies is what they be

> selling shoveling sticking ramming

> 

> our throats don't buy it don't buy

> their materialist the only reality is

> 

> the material world truth don't drink

> their rationality juice keep falling

> 

> keep failing into your subterranean

> serumed dream

> 

> Ron Whitehead

> 10/07/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:34:41 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: CCI

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

A dedicated good Saturday morning to you dear Sherri

 

I mean from a dedicated me. Gee I don't know how you handle this. Never been

dedicated to before. Hey do you think Joe was there too? That would be too

much after all his we know the truth Paul, you are a convicted felon, so

nobody has to believe a word you say that he is trying to weedle out of.

Trashing it about like a fish caught in the net. Of  his own making yet. I

do believe that the not kidding ribbing is geting a hearing in the places

where it counts, no getting burned in flames juggling here.

 

Spent an evening with Q.R. yesterday. He cooked us a lovely dinner. I

brought Anne along because she needed to check and close her p.o.box and do

a couple of other chores. Ginger brought a lovely bottle of wine, even if

Fahrid her Afghanistani boyfriend was not there. You will love meeting them.

I will be back Tuesday evening when Q.R. reads at an Art caffee on 19th and

Guerero. I want to meet Jean who arranges readings and is the person who

knows everything that's going on in town. Seems like everything is booked up

till February in town. I especially would like marie to read at the

International Caffe. There is a question about the poet who is booked for

the first Friday in January, so I left a tape and a printout with him. It

might happen if the problem stays a problem. You wouldn't happen to know

about likely reading places?

 

I promised myself I was not going to add pressures to your overfilled time.

Was a good boy yesterday, but here I go again

 taking some warm greetings to you,  quickly then

 

Love and peace

leon

 

 

 

From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 8:36 AM

Subject: Re: CCI

 

 

>Bentz, thanks for sharing this,  really grabs the heart.

>ciao,  sherri

> 

>----------

>From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R. Bentz Kirby

>Sent:   Friday, November 14, 1997 3:07 PM

>To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:        CCI

> 

>CCI

>(For Leon and Joe, by an outsider)

> 

>Central Correctional Institute.

>A granite fortress,

>Mined on the Saluda River

>By the inmates.

> 

>That was before THE war.

> 

>Death house.

>Pee Wee Gaskins blew up Rudolph Tyner

>And they made a tv movie of it.

>Outside were baseball fields, basketball courts, and weights.

>And row after row of barbed razor wire helix curving back

>Until it reinvented itself.

>Machine guns in the turrets.

>Right on the Columbia canal.

> 

>In this cell block the ghosts howl,

>And you do not have to strain to hear them.

> 

>Now, it is almost gone.  All but the granite.

>First they made a park on the old canal.

>Then Bell South built a building to house

>Busy executives of this modern society.

>So, they moved the prison, tore it down,

>Will soon build condominiums.

>Haunted by the rastafarian dreams,

>by the death row marches,

>by the electrocution of a teen age boy,

>by Tyner turning on his radio,

>by three time users doing 25 with no parole.

> 

>It has been the home of noble spirits too,

>But, alas, they do not haunt,

>Or if they do, are drowned by banshee.

> 

>CCI,

>Central Correctional Institute,

>Maximum Security,

>Not much correction.

>Turn your head like you can forget.

>In the night, they shall hear the voices.

>--

> 

>Peace,

> 

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:05:40 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: correction/not users, losers

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Thanks Bentz,

 

Not quite hung over from last night, but waking up slowly, not too slow to

make this big booboo. I am really sorry for this one. Hope Joe doesn't take

offense. What' done is done though. I have to stay behind it. I didn't want

to say anything further in public about it.

 

So what's this? Was Joe in CCI too? I would bet against it from his thoughts

about the fear of badmouthing there. No way he could believe that if he had

been there in any of the three years that I spent there. No way the constant

badmouthing and challenging that was always going on there just appeared

like an island from nowhere just for those years only.

 

Thanks for the dedication Bentz. I appreciate the thoughts behind it and

will write you again after I read it with a clear mind

 

Love and Peace

leon

 

I will read this carefully after work today and will let you know what I

feel about it.

-----Original Message-----

From: R. Bentz Kirby <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 7:35 PM

Subject: correction/not users, losers

 

 

>CCI

>(For Leon and Joe, by an outsider)

> 

>Central Correctional Institute.

>A granite fortress,

>Mined on the Saluda River

>By the inmates.

> 

>That was before THE war.

> 

>Death house.

>Pee Wee Gaskins blew up Rudolph Tyner

>And they made a tv movie of it.

>Outside were baseball fields, basketball courts, and weights.

>And row after row of barbed razor wire helix curving back

>Until it reinvented itself.

>Machine guns in the turrets.

>Right on the Columbia canal.

> 

>In this cell block the ghosts howl,

>And you do not have to strain to hear them.

> 

>Now, it is almost gone.  All but the granite.

>First they made a park on the old canal.

>Then Bell South built a building to house

>Busy executives of this modern society.

>So, they moved the prison, tore it down,

>Will soon build condominiums.

>Haunted by the rastafarian dreams,

>by the death row marches,

>by the electrocution of a teen age boy,

>by Tyner turning on his radio,

>by three time losers doing 25 with no parole.

> 

>It has been the home of noble spirits too,

>But, alas, they do not haunt,

>Or if they do, are drowned by banshee.

> 

>CCI,

>Central Correctional Institute,

>Maximum Security,

>Not much correction.

>Turn your head like you can forget.

>In the night, they shall hear the voices.

> 

>--

> 

>Peace,

> 

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:20:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: great american novel

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>I hated Ragtime because it seemed to read and drag like history.  It

>seemed portentous, and I was put off by that.  I read Loon Lake after

>that and like its aping of the style of Raymond Chandler, among others.

>I sort of gave up on Doctorow, but I haven't forgotten him.  He seems

>a master of other people's styles.

> 

>Mike Rice

 

Amazing that we subscribe to the same list given divergence of opinion on

Ragtime.  I agree that it reads like history in that the book informs with

much (to me) fascinating context except minor omissions like giving names

to characters;  remember brother,father, mother?  Portentious ? yes, but so

is 20th century America, or did you mean pretentious? But really I think

the book contests the whole notion of history because of the problem of

the, as Burroughs put it, vested interest --  it's a sort of post-history,

but vibrates my strings.

 

Absolom Absolom was the first Faulkner I ever read.  Couldn't tell what the

fuck was going on. Bought the Cliffs Notes which clued me in on how to read

the portentious brilliant thing.

 

Hope we're not too far afield here for BeatL but still on the American

novel thread.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:31:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: great american novel

In-Reply-To:  <v01540b00b093a0740cc8@[146.201.2.29]>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I had to read Ragtime for a summer assignment and I liked it. I think

Doctorow has a gift for telling stories. Of course, Im biased because

he teaches at my school...

 

 

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Preston Whaley wrote:

 

> >I hated Ragtime because it seemed to read and drag like history.  It

> >seemed portentous, and I was put off by that.  I read Loon Lake after

> >that and like its aping of the style of Raymond Chandler, among others.

> >I sort of gave up on Doctorow, but I haven't forgotten him.  He seems

> >a master of other people's styles.

> >

> >Mike Rice

> 

> Amazing that we subscribe to the same list given divergence of opinion on

> Ragtime.  I agree that it reads like history in that the book informs with

> much (to me) fascinating context except minor omissions like giving names

> to characters;  remember brother,father, mother?  Portentious ? yes, but so

> is 20th century America, or did you mean pretentious? But really I think

> the book contests the whole notion of history because of the problem of

> the, as Burroughs put it, vested interest --  it's a sort of post-history,

> but vibrates my strings.

> 

> Absolom Absolom was the first Faulkner I ever read.  Couldn't tell what the

> fuck was going on. Bought the Cliffs Notes which clued me in on how to read

> the portentious brilliant thing.

> 

> Hope we're not too far afield here for BeatL but still on the American

> novel thread.

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:46:14 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      recently italian jack kerouac's novels covers.

In-Reply-To:  <346B9565.6EE7@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 15.48 12/11/97 -0500, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>At 08:15 PM 11/12/97 +0100, you wrote:

>>At 10.02 11/11/97 -0500, Paul wrote:

>>>Hi Rinaldo - your cover you sent me is now posted. It can be found at:

>>> 

>>>  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

>>> 

>>> 

>>>                     Thanks! Paul of TKQ...

>>da rinaldo.

>>from venice-mestre,italy

>>p.s. i've well downloaded the pic. it's works fine.

>>ciao.

>> 

>>I am glad you like it...if you have others I will gladly post them in time.

>Thanks again, Paul...

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

> 

Paul,

 

the new reprinted jack kerouac's works paperback series was out

(same italian translation of the 50s'/60's) since 1995 and have

photo covers are featured by Wim Wender

 

publisher:arnoldo mondadori

photos Art Director:Federico Luci

Graphic Designer:Riccardo Danesi

 

(jk's novel)______________.... title photo cover by Wim Wenders__

--------------------------.... ---------------------------------

Sulla Strada (On the Road).... Sun dries Las Vegas, New Mexico.

reprint 1995

 

Big Sur (Big Sur)............. Western World Near Four Corners,

                                                                        California.

reprint 1996

 

I Vagabondi del Dharma ....... Flammable Terlingua, Texas

(The Dharma Bums)

reprint 1994

 

Angeli di desolazione......... Always open, Needles, California.

(Desolation Angel)

reprint 1996

 

Visioni di Gerard............. Old Trapper's, San Fernando, California.

(Visions of Gerard)

reprint 1997

 

Il dottor Sax................. Union Ludlow, California.

(Doctor Sax)

reprint 1996

 

it would be beautiful compare the digitized covers of the present

with those of the past. please let me know if u likes the

project...

 

saluti da

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:11:31 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      memento of John Denver a month later.

In-Reply-To:  <199710150046.RAA11200@hsc.usc.edu>

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At 00.04 16/11/97 +0800,

jacqtang <jacqtang@mbox2.singnet.com.sg> wrote:

>Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>> 

>> hello,

>> please can someone post the "american pie"

>> lyric by johnny denver?

>> thanks,

>> rinaldo

>> 

>> rasa@gpnet.it

>> venice-mestre,italy.

> 

>Hello Rinaldo,

> 

>I didn't realise it was recorded by John Denver? Other than Don McLean,

>I know only of The Brady Bunch doing a stupid version of it.

> 

>You can find the lyrics at for parts 1 & 2 at

>http://www.summer.com.br/~pfilho/oldies_list/top/lyrics/american_pie.txt

>or the one that I've listed below from

>http://www.execpc.com/~suden/american_pie.html

> 

>Enjoy......Jacq

> 

>AMERICAN PIE

>============

>A long long time ago

>I can still remember how that music used to make me smile

>And I knew if I had my chance

>That I could make those people dance

>And maybe they'd be happy for a while.

> 

>But February made me shiver

>With every paper I'd deliver

>Bad news on the doorstep

>I couldn't take one more step

> 

>I can't remember if I cried

>When I read about his widowed bride

>But something touched me deep inside

>The day the music died

> 

>So bye-bye, Miss American Pie

>Drove my chevy to the levee

>But the levee was dry

>And them good old boys were drinkin' whiskey and rye

>Singin' this'll be the day that I die

>This'll be the day that I die

> 

>Did you write the Book of Love

>And do you have faith in God above

>If the Bible tells you so

>Do you believe in rock 'n roll

>Can music save your mortal soul

>And can you teach me how to dance real slow

> 

>Well, I know that you're in love with him

>'Cause I saw you dancin' in the gym

>You both kicked off your shoes

>Man, I dig those rhythm and blues

> 

>I was a lonely teenage broncin' buck

>With a pink carnation and a pickup truck

>But I knew I was out of luck

>The day the music died

> 

>I started singin'

>So bye-bye, Miss American Pie

>Drove my chevy to the levee

>But the levee was dry

>And them good old boys were drinkin' whiskey and rye

>Singin' this'll be the day that I die

>This'll be the day that I die

> 

>Now for ten years we've been on our own

>And moss grows fat on a rollin' stone

>But that's not how it used to be

>When the jester sang for the King and Queen

>In a coat he borrowed from James Dean

>And a voice that came from you and me

> 

>Oh, and while the King was looking down

>The jester stole his thorny crown

>The courtroom was adjourned

>No verdict was returned

>And while Lennon read a book of Marx

>The quartet practiced in the park

>And we sang dirges in the dark

>The day the music died

> 

>We were singing

>So bye-bye, Miss American Pie

>Drove my chevy to the levee

>But the levee was dry

>And them good old boys were drinkin' whiskey and rye

>Singin' this'll be the day that I die

>This'll be the day that I die

> 

>Helter Skelter in a summer swelter

>The Byrds flew off with a fallout shelter

>Eight miles high and falling fast

>It landed foul out on the grass

>The players tried for a forward pass

>With the jester on the sidelines in a cast

> 

>Now the half-time air was sweet perfume

>While the Sergeants played a marching tune

>We all got up to dance

>Oh, but we never got the chance

>'Cause the players tried to take the field

>The marching band refused to yield

>Do you recall what was revealed

>The day the music died

> 

>We started singing

>So bye-bye, Miss American Pie

>Drove my chevy to the levee

>But the levee was dry

>And them good old boys were drinkin' whiskey and rye

>Singin' this'll be the day that I die

>This'll be the day that I die

> 

>Oh, and there we were all in one place

>A generation Lost in Space

>With no time left to start again

>So come on, Jack be nimble, Jack be quick

>Jack Flash sat on a candlestick

>'Cause fire is the Devil's only friend

> 

>Oh, and as I watched him on the stage

>My hands were clenched in fists of rage

>No angel born in hell

>Could break that Satan's spell

>And as the flames climbed high into the night

>To light the sacrifical rite

>I saw Satan laughing with delight

>The day the music died

> 

>He was singing

>So bye-bye, Miss American Pie

>Drove my chevy to the levee

>But the levee was dry

>And them good old boys were drinkin' whiskey and rye

>Singin' this'll be the day that I die

>This'll be the day that I die

> 

>I met a girl who sang the blues

>And I asked her for some happy news

>But she just smiled and turned away

>I went down to the sacred store

>Where I'd heard the music years before

>But the man there said the music woudn't play

> 

>And in the streets the children screamed

>The lovers cried, and the poets dreamed

>But not a word was spoken

>The church bells all were broken

>And the three men I admire most

>The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost

>They caught the last train for the coast

>The day the music died

> 

>And they were singing

>So bye-bye, Miss American Pie

>Drove my chevy to the levee

>But the levee was dry

>And them good old boys were drinkin' whiskey and rye

>Singin' this'll be the day that I die

>This'll be the day that I die

> 

>They were singing bye-bye, Miss American Pie

>Drove my chevy to the levee

>But the levee was dry

>Them good old boys were drinking whiskey and rye

>Singin' this'll be the day that I die

> 

 

*       **      **      **      **      **      **      **      **      *

Hello Jacq,

 

have a nice day, thanks for your very useful lyric info,

the sad news of johnny denver's death during an air fly accident,

was connected with similar death as Othis Redding (1967)

and Buddy Holly (2th february 1959).

 

in 1971 johnny denver dedicated

the "american pie" (written by don mclean) to buddy holly.

it was fated to happen the same accident to johnny...

 

the fragment is:

...

>But February made me shiver

>With every paper I'd deliver

>Bad news on the doorstep

>I couldn't take one more step

> 

>I can't remember if I cried

>When I read about his widowed bride

>But something touched me deep inside

>The day the music died

...

 

Jacq again thanks

 

ciao,

rinaldo.

******************************************************

 

At 17.46 14/10/97 -0700, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>At 08:17 PM 10/14/97 EDT, you wrote:

>>On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:51:18 EST THE ZET'S GOOD. said:

>>>Was John Denver Beat?

>>> 

>>>                           --Dave B.

>> 

>> 

>>Well, he had a song called "Rocky Mountain High."  Does that count?

>> 

>> 

> 

>If it does he's beat.

> 

>He also had some song about he and his friends sitting around at night

>passing the pipe around.

> 

>Weirdly weirdly John Denver was kind of beat.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:17:04 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: memento of John Denver a month later.

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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> 

> At 00.04 16/11/97 +0800,

> jacqtang <jacqtang@mbox2.singnet.com.sg> wrote:

> >Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> >>

> >> hello,

> >> please can someone post the "american pie"

> >> lyric by johnny denver?

> >> thanks,

> >> rinaldo

> >>

> >> rasa@gpnet.it

> >> venice-mestre,italy.

> >

> >Hello Rinaldo,

> >

> >I didn't realise it was recorded by John Denver? Other than Don McLean,

> >I know only of The Brady Bunch doing a stupid version of it.

> >

> >You can find the lyrics at for parts 1 & 2 at

> 

> >Weirdly weirdly John Denver was kind of beat.

> >

> >

the one that gets me is his song "Leavin' On a Jet Plane".  I used to do

a rather twisted post-divorce version which included "when I come back

I'll hock(sp?) my wedding ring".  Playing it in Wichita a few weeks back

I had to shift gears and comletely rethink the song almost heading to

bardo or JD's western lands in reworking the interpretation.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:59:09 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Nightmares

 

Thanks Antoine! I appreciate your comments.  It's a spontaneous poem that I

did recently after visiting the county jail.  I had never  been inside of a

cell before . . . I couldn't imagine being caged like that.  Anyway, because

of the experience, I started having all of these strange, horrible, dreams.

"Nightmares" is just an exploration of that.

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Antoine Maloney

Sent:   Saturday, November 15, 1997 2:54 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Nightmares

 

Shani,

 

        Is this something you did a while ago or have been working on? or

was it inspired by Bentz's e-mail on CCI? I like this also - very vivid.

 

                Antoine

 

                ****************

 

from Shani St.John

Subject:      Nightmares

To:           BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

Jail of concrete,

padded walls,

mattresses rotten with sweat of tears

and years of neglect.

a lonely toilet bowl sulks quietly in the corner

waiting for drops of piss,

a shock of yellow in the porcelain hole.

inside I hear the clank of bars,

the rattle of chains,

the sound of locks without keys.

I see the pacing and gesturing frustration

of a man without a face, without a soul.

 

The crying in the night.

the wailing, moaning of men

who feel no remorse.

the cacophonic quarrel of voices long gone,

bed long empty,

sinks unwashed.

And stinking cells,

unbarred,

with doors agape,

like dumb mouths, wide (aghast) with pity   surprise   disgust

And I quake

And I can't breathe in here,

mommy.

don't shut me in

can't see in the dark

and the clank of chains

the viscious monotony of whisperers

plotting, plotting

of death

and the plodding plodding thunderous footsteps

and the greasy, wet, stale, breath

of tombs. . . .

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:55:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Anais Nin and AG

 

good evening all,

i was just reading an article on Anais Nin and it stated that she surrounded

herself with famous writers (now i know thats true) but listed among Henry

Miller (no big shocker) was Allen Ginsberg. Now, i've only dabbled in a few

of AN's diaries, but did she have a friendship with AG? i wasn't aware that

they'd even met. if anyone has any info. on this i'd really appreciate it.

actually, if you have any info on a relationship/friendship/meeting between

AN and any of the beats, i'd love it. thanks. take care,

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:21:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Cosmic Threads

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

COSMIC THREADS

(Does anyone know?)

 

Beat

List,

Leon,

Joe,

Bentz,

Columbia,

South

Carolina,

CCI.

Inside,

Outside,

1950

1960

1970

1980

1990

Gone

Granite

Walls

Remain.

Thread

Touching

Three

Beat

List

Members.

CCI,

Bentz,

Joe,

Leon.

Cosmic

Thread.

Coincidence.

None.

 

--

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:43:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: great american novel

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I'm greeeeeeen with envy.  Did you take a class with him? Does he teach

writing or literature?

 

Preston

 

 

>I had to read Ragtime for a summer assignment and I liked it. I think

>Doctorow has a gift for telling stories. Of course, Im biased because

>he teaches at my school...

> 

> 

>On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Preston Whaley wrote:

> 

>> >I hated Ragtime because it seemed to read and drag like history.  It

>> >seemed portentous, and I was put off by that.  I read Loon Lake after

>> >that and like its aping of the style of Raymond Chandler, among others.

>> >I sort of gave up on Doctorow, but I haven't forgotten him.  He seems

>> >a master of other people's styles.

>> >

>> >Mike Rice

>> 

>> Amazing that we subscribe to the same list given divergence of opinion on

>> Ragtime.  I agree that it reads like history in that the book informs with

>> much (to me) fascinating context except minor omissions like giving names

>> to characters;  remember brother,father, mother?  Portentious ? yes, but so

>> is 20th century America, or did you mean pretentious? But really I think

>> the book contests the whole notion of history because of the problem of

>> the, as Burroughs put it, vested interest --  it's a sort of post-history,

>> but vibrates my strings.

>> 

>> Absolom Absolom was the first Faulkner I ever read.  Couldn't tell what the

>> fuck was going on. Bought the Cliffs Notes which clued me in on how to read

>> the portentious brilliant thing.

>> 

>> Hope we're not too far afield here for BeatL but still on the American

>> novel thread.

>> 

> 

>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

>Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:57:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Anais Nin and AG

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>good evening all,

>i was just reading an article on Anais Nin and it stated that she surrounded

>herself with famous writers (now i know thats true) but listed among Henry

>Miller (no big shocker) was Allen Ginsberg. Now, i've only dabbled in a few

>of AN's diaries, but did she have a friendship with AG? i wasn't aware that

>they'd even met. if anyone has any info. on this i'd really appreciate it.

>actually, if you have any info on a relationship/friendship/meeting between

>AN and any of the beats, i'd love it. thanks. take care,

>~~Marlene

 

Shortly after Ginsberg read Howl at the 6 Gallery he read in LA through

Rexroth's L. Lipton connection.  Someone in the audience began heckling . .

. saying something like "c'mon, what are you trying to prove."  Ginsberg

challenged the guy by asking "what are you afraid of? Are you afraid of the

nakedness?"  Then he stripped.  Anais Nin was in the audience and laughed.

This is out of Miles' biography on G. and I think I've remembered the jewel

center, so to speak. Anyway,  that was probably when they became aquainted

for the first time.

 

Preston

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:58:20 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andre Gauthier <agauthi@CCO.NET>

Subject:      Re: Ginsberg and Vonnegut

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If you write, draw, know jokes, take pictures, all shapes, sizes, =

colors, creeds, and sexual preferences, (you don't even have to be that =

good at it)  then submit them to my zine, 96 MILES TO PORTLAND. For more =

information e-mail me.

 

-----Original Message-----

From:   Maggie Gerrity [SMTP:u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM]

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 9:14 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Ginsberg and Vonnegut

 

  I'm working on this compilation of criticisms (historical,

biographical, and literary) and reviews of a group of Allen Ginsberg

poems for which I have to write a 3 page opening essay. The title of

my anthology is "Love, Death, and the Teachings of Allen Ginsberg."

Does anyone have any suggestions of what audience to target in this

intro? Scholars? Students? Fellow poets and/or Beat Lovers?

 

   [Janelle Gauthier]  target your paper to who you want reading it

Janelle=20

 

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:07:19 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andre Gauthier <agauthi@CCO.NET>

Subject:      poetery reading

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If anyone is interested, and lives in the Olympia WA, New Century's =

annual poetry reading will be on the 24th, if you want to read something =

or go then e-mail me about it.

Janelle

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:52:06 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andre Gauthier <agauthi@CCO.NET>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding:  quoted-printable

 

If you write, draw, know jokes, take pictures, all shapes, sizes, =

colors, creeds, and sexual preferences, (you don't even have to be that =

good at it)  then submit them to my zine, 96 MILES TO PORTLAND. For more =

information e-mail me.

 

-----Original Message-----

From:   John Gregorio [SMTP:Subterr7@AOL.COM]

Sent:   Tuesday, November 11, 1997 8:17 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

 

For those who have read, and enjoyed, Vonnegut over the years it was a =

nice

"goodbye."  Yet, I would have preferred, and I think it would have been =

a

better book, if he would have written a book of essays or another type =

of

non-fiction.  Maybe an autobiography.

  Jack Gregorio

 

I thought it kinda was like an auto-bio was little bits of ficition =

thrown in.

Janelle

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:29:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: great american novel

In-Reply-To:  <v01540b01b093f19c1dd5@[146.201.2.52]>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Unfortunately, the seminar he lead on Ragtime was during a class so i

couldnt go...

 

 

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Preston Whaley wrote:

 

> I'm greeeeeeen with envy.  Did you take a class with him? Does he teach

> writing or literature?

> 

> Preston

> 

> 

> >I had to read Ragtime for a summer assignment and I liked it. I think

> >Doctorow has a gift for telling stories. Of course, Im biased because

> >he teaches at my school...

> >

> >

> >On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Preston Whaley wrote:

> >

> >> >I hated Ragtime because it seemed to read and drag like history.  It

> >> >seemed portentous, and I was put off by that.  I read Loon Lake after

> >> >that and like its aping of the style of Raymond Chandler, among others.

> >> >I sort of gave up on Doctorow, but I haven't forgotten him.  He seems

> >> >a master of other people's styles.

> >> >

> >> >Mike Rice

> >>

> >> Amazing that we subscribe to the same list given divergence of opinion on

> >> Ragtime.  I agree that it reads like history in that the book informs with

> >> much (to me) fascinating context except minor omissions like giving names

> >> to characters;  remember brother,father, mother?  Portentious ? yes, but so

> >> is 20th century America, or did you mean pretentious? But really I think

> >> the book contests the whole notion of history because of the problem of

> >> the, as Burroughs put it, vested interest --  it's a sort of post-history,

> >> but vibrates my strings.

> >>

> >> Absolom Absolom was the first Faulkner I ever read.  Couldn't tell what the

> >> fuck was going on. Bought the Cliffs Notes which clued me in on how to read

> >> the portentious brilliant thing.

> >>

> >> Hope we're not too far afield here for BeatL but still on the American

> >> novel thread.

> >>

> >

> >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> >Sure-JK

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 04:59:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fwd: Jack Kerouac

 

In a message dated 97-11-14 12:27:01 EST, hal.marcovitz@mcall.com writes:

 

The attached message was sent to me and he needs help with finding a quote.

Hopefully someone within the group can help him out. enjoy

 

 

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From:   hal.marcovitz@mcall.com (Hal Marcovitz)

To:     gyenis@AOL.COM

Date: 97-11-14 12:27:01 EST

 

Hello, I'm a writer working on an op-ed piece for The Allentown Morning Call

on the 40th anniversary of the publication of "On the Road." I am

desperately searching for the quote in the book that sums up the beat

generation in one line. It reads something like "there is a new beat

generation. . ." Can you be of any help? Do you know where in the book I can

find it?

Thanks, Hal Marcovitz

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:43:07 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Fwd: Jack Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  <971116045952_1704364756@mrin47>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Why not just read the book again? Its a quick read, at best.

 

 

 

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Attila Gyenis wrote:

 

> In a message dated 97-11-14 12:27:01 EST, hal.marcovitz@mcall.com writes:

> 

> The attached message was sent to me and he needs help with finding a quote.

> Hopefully someone within the group can help him out. enjoy

> 

> 

> ---------------------

> Forwarded message:

> From:   hal.marcovitz@mcall.com (Hal Marcovitz)

> To:     gyenis@AOL.COM

> Date: 97-11-14 12:27:01 EST

> 

> Hello, I'm a writer working on an op-ed piece for The Allentown Morning Call

> on the 40th anniversary of the publication of "On the Road." I am

> desperately searching for the quote in the book that sums up the beat

> generation in one line. It reads something like "there is a new beat

> generation. . ." Can you be of any help? Do you know where in the book I can

> find it?

> Thanks, Hal Marcovitz

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 18:42:44 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      a question

Comments: cc: jjdorfner@aol.com

In-Reply-To:  <346C55E9.2140@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Return-Path: <jjdorfner@aol.com>

>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 03:13:04 -0500

>Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

>To: "Rinaldo Rasa" <rasa@gpnet.it>

>From: jjdorfner@aol.com (Jjdorfner)

>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

>Subject: Re: updated12nov97BeatSupernova

> 

>hey...what ever happened to Beat-L?

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:21:40 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Jack Kerouac (fwd) Hallowed be your name. ..

In-Reply-To:  <199711121757.JAA20874@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

 B.D. says:

"

But naming, I admit, is no laughing matter. It is easy for me

to be supercilious about those who rechristen themselves, because

I have not had to find a new name. It must be an intolerable

burden to hate your name, which is like your body, mind,

personality, and family something issued to you at birth.

Of those essential ingredients, names are the easiest to change;

I am told by a lawyer friend that it costs about $150 and

three weeks to legally change your name, which is less than

it would cost to remake your body or engage a psychiatrist

to adjust your mental image. Interestingly, you can also

change your name to anything; there are no legal restrictions

on people labels, and you can, if you choose, name yourself

after fruit, household items, insects, crimes, types of wood,

machines, garments, or shoes.

 

 

And changing your name is a hallowed American tradition,

especially among scribblers. Nathanael West, Zane Grey, and

Mark Twain, to name a few, started over whole

(they were Nathan Weinstein, Pearl Grey, and Samuel Clemens, respectively),

and among those who have edited their names

are Willa Cather (born Wilella), Henry David Thoreau (born David Henry),

Jack Kerouac (born Jean-Louis), Walt Whitman (christened Walter),

and Nathaniel Hawthorne, who tossed a w in the Hathorne family name,

reportedly because he thought the extra consonant added a bit of upper

crust to the mix.

 

Renaming is remaking, of course.

Naming yourself confers autonomy, as well as the opportunity

to shuck your past and start again. It is a creation.

"

found on the web site

http://www.catholic.org/liguori/reflect/ord11th.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:13:45 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi folks.

 

I got this message from someone looking at my web site where I have a bit

about the beat-l and how to sign up.

 

I don't know how to answer him but maybe some here do so I am forwarding

this to us all.

 

Feel free to answer this inquisitive soul about the going-ons of the

beat-l.  You would reply to palfrey@dircon.co.uk

 

 

 

>Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 16:21:22 +0000

>From: Parker <palfrey@dircon.co.uk>

>Reply-To: palfrey@dircon.co.uk

>MIME-Version: 1.0

>To: gallaher@hsc.usc.edu

>Subject: Kerouac

> 

>So what's this discussion group about? I enjoy Kerouac's work and want

>to talk to others about the wonders that it is.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:50:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      utne

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

The current (Nov.-Dec.) issue of the _Utne Reader_ has a feature focus on

"Beyond Hip." An article by Tom Frank entitled "Let Them Eat Lifestyle"

has a picture of the GAP ad with Kerouac (p. 44); the article briefly

refers to this ad and discusses the Volvo ad which quoted from _On the

Road_ (p. 45). On the back page, under a picture of Bob Denver as

TVBeatnik Maynard G. Krebs, the magazine includes the following passage

from Mailer's _Advertisements for Myself_: "the beatnik is more likely to

have a good mind than a good body."--I guess the athletic Kerouac and

Cassady wouldn't fit the pattern of the beatnik.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:42:26 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "summer s. eve" <NIEL1000@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

 

does anyone own the city lights pocket poets anthology?: its an

excellent collection of 'the best of' the city lights publications:

it has everything you could ever want: its my bible:

 

it has bits and pieces by lawrence ferlinghetti, picasso, kerouac,

ginsberg, williams, prevert, and more.

 

if you dont own this book, run out and buy it imediately.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:52:44 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Anne <gbarker@THEGRID.NET>

Subject:      Re: GAN

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Attila Gyenis wrote:.

> 

> But the best book for me is

> Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole.

> A#1

 

wow. Confederacy is my my favorite as well.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 06:13:03 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: City Lights Pocket Poets Anthology

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> summer s. eve wrote:

> 

> does anyone own the city lights pocket poets anthology?: its an

> excellent collection of 'the best of' the city lights publications:

> it has everything you could ever want: its my bible:

> 

> it has bits and pieces by lawrence ferlinghetti, picasso, kerouac,

> ginsberg, williams, prevert, and more.

> 

> if you dont own this book, run out and buy it imediately.

 

You're right, it is an excellent collection.  I was disappointed that

there was only one poem by Anne Waldman that didn't seen very good, and

two by Diane Di Prima.  There were four, however by Harold Norse (Bentz,

isn't this the poet you have been recommending?) and I thought the one

titled "Believing in the Absurd" was excellent.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:05:00 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: more whitehead poetry

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:47 AM 11/15/97 +0000, you wrote:

>Ron Whitehead wrote:

> 

>> Tapping My Own Phone

>> 

>> I'm going straight bought myself a flat top

>> haircut so stiff I can carry a tray of martinis

>> 

>> waiting on people someone to open up her

>> purse and give me a tip cause I don't have

>> 

>> a clue anymore as to what's going on but

>> I do know that I'm one step ahead tapping

>> 

>> my own phone to hear myself talking with

>> people who used to be my friends listening

>> 

>> so I can correct myself before they do and

>> I've got a surveillance camera in my abandoned

>> 

>> car across the street watching myself replaying

>> the tape so I can see if I'm acting funny before

>> 

>> they catch me doing something I shouldn't

>> like yesterday I spotted myself walking too

>> 

>> fast and I heard myself talking too loud yes

>> I've got the deep fear paranoia anxiety despair

>> 

>> and suicide blues but I'm making sure I don't

>> do nothing else wrong cause I done screwed

>> 

>> up so many times I cornered myself into a

>> backstreet deadend alley of paranoia and every

>> 

>> time I hear an airplane or helicopter or car

>> door slam I know The Secret Service the FBI

>> 

>> and the IRS Swat Teams have finally arrived

>> cause I published a poem by the President of

>> 

>> The United States of America without his

>> fully conscious permission and I'm sure I

>> 

>> haven't paid enough taxes cause I've got no

>> income yet somehow I keep on doing things

>> 

>> like eating every once in a while and paying

>> a light bill or two but how do I do it they're

>> 

>> gonna ask what's the source of your income

>> and how come you don't come to see us

>> 

>> anymore so yes I've become a little jumpy

>> but I'm staying one step ahead tapping my

>> 

>> own phone videotaping my every move

>> watching myself day and night replaying

>> 

>> the tapes cause I got a bad bad bad case

>> of the deep fear paranoia anxiety despair

>> 

>> and suicide blues

>> 

>> Ron Whitehead

>> 10/08/97

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:05:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: more whitehead poetry

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

This is very good.  Who is Ron Whitehead?

 

Mike Rice

 

 

 

At 07:47 AM 11/15/97 +0000, you wrote:

>Ron Whitehead wrote:

> 

>> Tapping My Own Phone

>> 

>> I'm going straight bought myself a flat top

>> haircut so stiff I can carry a tray of martinis

>> 

>> waiting on people someone to open up her

>> purse and give me a tip cause I don't have

>> 

>> a clue anymore as to what's going on but

>> I do know that I'm one step ahead tapping

>> 

>> my own phone to hear myself talking with

>> people who used to be my friends listening

>> 

>> so I can correct myself before they do and

>> I've got a surveillance camera in my abandoned

>> 

>> car across the street watching myself replaying

>> the tape so I can see if I'm acting funny before

>> 

>> they catch me doing something I shouldn't

>> like yesterday I spotted myself walking too

>> 

>> fast and I heard myself talking too loud yes

>> I've got the deep fear paranoia anxiety despair

>> 

>> and suicide blues but I'm making sure I don't

>> do nothing else wrong cause I done screwed

>> 

>> up so many times I cornered myself into a

>> backstreet deadend alley of paranoia and every

>> 

>> time I hear an airplane or helicopter or car

>> door slam I know The Secret Service the FBI

>> 

>> and the IRS Swat Teams have finally arrived

>> cause I published a poem by the President of

>> 

>> The United States of America without his

>> fully conscious permission and I'm sure I

>> 

>> haven't paid enough taxes cause I've got no

>> income yet somehow I keep on doing things

>> 

>> like eating every once in a while and paying

>> a light bill or two but how do I do it they're

>> 

>> gonna ask what's the source of your income

>> and how come you don't come to see us

>> 

>> anymore so yes I've become a little jumpy

>> but I'm staying one step ahead tapping my

>> 

>> own phone videotaping my every move

>> watching myself day and night replaying

>> 

>> the tapes cause I got a bad bad bad case

>> of the deep fear paranoia anxiety despair

>> 

>> and suicide blues

>> 

>> Ron Whitehead

>> 10/08/97

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 18:47:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: more whitehead poetry

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19971116180018.19ff1696@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Jim Croce also had the paranoia blues, from knocking around NYC too

long...

Good poem

 

 

 

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

 

> At 07:47 AM 11/15/97 +0000, you wrote:

> >Ron Whitehead wrote:

> >

> >> Tapping My Own Phone

> >>

> >> I'm going straight bought myself a flat top

> >> haircut so stiff I can carry a tray of martinis

> >>

> >> waiting on people someone to open up her

> >> purse and give me a tip cause I don't have

> >>

> >> a clue anymore as to what's going on but

> >> I do know that I'm one step ahead tapping

> >>

> >> my own phone to hear myself talking with

> >> people who used to be my friends listening

> >>

> >> so I can correct myself before they do and

> >> I've got a surveillance camera in my abandoned

> >>

> >> car across the street watching myself replaying

> >> the tape so I can see if I'm acting funny before

> >>

> >> they catch me doing something I shouldn't

> >> like yesterday I spotted myself walking too

> >>

> >> fast and I heard myself talking too loud yes

> >> I've got the deep fear paranoia anxiety despair

> >>

> >> and suicide blues but I'm making sure I don't

> >> do nothing else wrong cause I done screwed

> >>

> >> up so many times I cornered myself into a

> >> backstreet deadend alley of paranoia and every

> >>

> >> time I hear an airplane or helicopter or car

> >> door slam I know The Secret Service the FBI

> >>

> >> and the IRS Swat Teams have finally arrived

> >> cause I published a poem by the President of

> >>

> >> The United States of America without his

> >> fully conscious permission and I'm sure I

> >>

> >> haven't paid enough taxes cause I've got no

> >> income yet somehow I keep on doing things

> >>

> >> like eating every once in a while and paying

> >> a light bill or two but how do I do it they're

> >>

> >> gonna ask what's the source of your income

> >> and how come you don't come to see us

> >>

> >> anymore so yes I've become a little jumpy

> >> but I'm staying one step ahead tapping my

> >>

> >> own phone videotaping my every move

> >> watching myself day and night replaying

> >>

> >> the tapes cause I got a bad bad bad case

> >> of the deep fear paranoia anxiety despair

> >>

> >> and suicide blues

> >>

> >> Ron Whitehead

> >> 10/08/97

> >

> >

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 18:32:03 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Beat Generation in NY

 

I'm about half way through Bill Morgan's "The Beat Generation in New

York" and it's really a treat.  Follow in the footsteps of the Beat

Generation from the Columbia University to Times Square to Rockefeller

Center, Chelsea, Greenwich Village and the Lower East Side.  There's

even a tour for the Bronx, Queens, & Yonkers!    The lively anecdotes

and rare photos provide a thumb nail portarit of the history of the Beat

Generation in and round New York City.  Read the entries carefully and

be on the lookout for puns, many of which I've been told were contributed by th

e book's publisher, Lawrence Ferlinghetti.   If you're interested in the Beats

and planning a visit to New York, this guide is as essential as a METRO card.

And if you're planning to vist McSorley's Olde Ale House (page 117), give me a

call or email me.  Maybe we can have a drink together.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:27:47 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: more whitehead poetry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

uh, guys, could some one else field this one?

well, ok- mike, ron whitehead is a poet and promoter of numerous events,

last big do was the 25th anniversary party for HST's fear and loathing,

a true poet and frantic publisher of as many new talents as possible,

whitefield press, in l'ville,. any one else?

mc

 

Mike Rice wrote:

 

> This is very good.  Who is Ron Whitehead?

> 

> Mike Rice

> 

> At 07:47 AM 11/15/97 +0000, you wrote:

> >Ron Whitehead wrote:

> >

> >> Tapping My Own Phone

> >>

> >> I'm going straight bought myself a flat top

> >> haircut so stiff I can carry a tray of martinis

> >>

> >> waiting on people someone to open up her

> >> purse and give me a tip cause I don't have

> >>

> >> a clue anymore as to what's going on but

> >> I do know that I'm one step ahead tapping

> >>

> >> my own phone to hear myself talking with

> >> people who used to be my friends listening

> >>

> >> so I can correct myself before they do and

> >> I've got a surveillance camera in my abandoned

> >>

> >> car across the street watching myself replaying

> >> the tape so I can see if I'm acting funny before

> >>

> >> they catch me doing something I shouldn't

> >> like yesterday I spotted myself walking too

> >>

> >> fast and I heard myself talking too loud yes

> >> I've got the deep fear paranoia anxiety despair

> >>

> >> and suicide blues but I'm making sure I don't

> >> do nothing else wrong cause I done screwed

> >>

> >> up so many times I cornered myself into a

> >> backstreet deadend alley of paranoia and every

> >>

> >> time I hear an airplane or helicopter or car

> >> door slam I know The Secret Service the FBI

> >>

> >> and the IRS Swat Teams have finally arrived

> >> cause I published a poem by the President of

> >>

> >> The United States of America without his

> >> fully conscious permission and I'm sure I

> >>

> >> haven't paid enough taxes cause I've got no

> >> income yet somehow I keep on doing things

> >>

> >> like eating every once in a while and paying

> >> a light bill or two but how do I do it they're

> >>

> >> gonna ask what's the source of your income

> >> and how come you don't come to see us

> >>

> >> anymore so yes I've become a little jumpy

> >> but I'm staying one step ahead tapping my

> >>

> >> own phone videotaping my every move

> >> watching myself day and night replaying

> >>

> >> the tapes cause I got a bad bad bad case

> >> of the deep fear paranoia anxiety despair

> >>

> >> and suicide blues

> >>

> >> Ron Whitehead

> >> 10/08/97

> >

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:43:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Nightmares

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711150437240769@classic.msn.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Yipes!

 

Shani St.John,

 

I can't imagine that there are many people who have read more poetry by

prisoners and about prisons/asylums/"correctional institutions," etc. than

I have. For years poetic cries poured into the "office" of our underground

newspaper, the Prisoners Digest International (started out as the Penal

Digest International). Made many trips to publishers with anthologies that

wee always rejected.

 

Reading your poem I have to believe you have been very close to someone who

has done heavy time--if you haven't done so yourself.

 

An incredible poem I will share with many, many friends.

 

Thanks,

 

j grant

 

 

>Jail of concrete,

>padded walls,

>mattresses rotten with sweat of tears

>and years of neglect.

>a lonely toilet bowl sulks quietly in the corner

>waiting for drops of piss,

>a shock of yellow in the porcelain hole.

>inside I hear the clank of bars,

>the rattle of chains,

>the sound of locks without keys.

>I see the pacing and gesturing frustration

>of a man without a face, without a soul.

> 

>The crying in the night.

>the wailing, moaning of men

>who feel no remorse.

>the cacophonic quarrel of voices long gone,

>bed long empty,

>sinks unwashed.

>And stinking cells,

>unbarred,

>with doors agape,

>like dumb mouths, wide (aghast) with pity   surprise   disgust

>And I quake

>And I can't breathe in here,

>mommy.

>don't shut me in

>can't see in the dark

>and the clank of chains

>the viscious monotony of whisperers

>plotting, plotting

>of death

>and the plodding plodding thunderous footsteps

>and the greasy, wet, stale, breath

>of tombs. . . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:55:26 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: more whitehead poetry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Nancy Brodsky wrote:

 

> Jim Croce also had the paranoia blues, from knocking around NYC too

> long...

 

Are you sure you're not thinking of Paul Simon?  This is almost an exact

quote from a song on his first solo LP.

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:13:13 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Some Of The Dharma in Salon

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

There's a well-written review of Some Of The Dharma in the Monday

edition of Salon...here's where to go:

 

http://www.salon1999.com/books/

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:23:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      X-Files

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

The X-Files episode tonight reminded me of the poem by Whitehead about

paranoia.  Thanks to MC for posting it.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:16:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation in NY

 

Bill,

Is McSorley's as close to heaven as Joseph Mitchell makes it sound?  I've

been dying to visit (or permanently relocate) there since reading the essay.

 How could cruel fate plop me in California, so far from the barstool I

deserve?

Dennis

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:40:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: McSorley's

 

Does anyone else (besides me) remember when women were thrown out of

McSorley's??   Three smart-ass college girls --- freshmen,  no less

(Montclair State) --- in the winter of 1968.  It wasn't our age, because the

drinking age in NY was 18, even though it was 21 in NJ.  We went back a few

weeks later --- just for another forbidden try.

 

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:55:37 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: McSorley's

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Dawn B. Sova wrote:

> 

> Does anyone else (besides me) remember when women were thrown out of

> McSorley's??   Three smart-ass college girls --- freshmen,  no less

> (Montclair State) --- in the winter of 1968.  It wasn't our age, because the

> drinking age in NY was 18, even though it was 21 in NJ.  We went back a few

> weeks later --- just for another forbidden try.

> 

> Dawn

 

It sounds like a pretty good story.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:34:08 -0500

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From:         Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: GAN

 

Confederacy of Dunces was one of my all time faves too.

 

I read a book review in the Washington Post when it was first published in

the eighties and was intrigued with the story behind the story. For all you

would be authors out there, the guy who wrote it was so despondent over not

being able to get his book published after being rejected by a bunch of

publishing houses that he literally committed suicide.

 

His mother would up shopping the manuscript around to what I remember to be

like 100 publishers before somebody picked it up and the book would winning a

Pulitzer.  After hearing a story like that I had to read it and it was

terrific.

 

 

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:28:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: more whitehead poetry

In-Reply-To:  <199711170158.TAA03314@core0.mx.execpc.com>

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It was Jim Croce...the album is called "dont mess with jim" or something

like that....

 

 

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:

 

> Nancy Brodsky wrote:

> 

> > Jim Croce also had the paranoia blues, from knocking around NYC too

> > long...

> 

> Are you sure you're not thinking of Paul Simon?  This is almost an exact

> quote from a song on his first solo LP.

> 

> Jym

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:53:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "D. Patrick Hornberger" <"eastwind@erols.com"@EROLS.COM>

Organization: EASTWIND PUBLISHING

Subject:      Re: McSorley's

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Dawn B. Sova wrote:

> 

> Does anyone else (besides me) remember when women were thrown out of

> McSorley's??   Three smart-ass college girls --- freshmen,  no less

> (Montclair State) --- in the winter of 1968.  It wasn't our age, because the

> drinking age in NY was 18, even though it was 21 in NJ.  We went back a few

> weeks later --- just for another forbidden try.

> 

> Dawn

 

 

When I weent to Cooper Union back in the 60's we hung out at

McSorleys---(cheap beer, dirty with character) men only at that

time--and as I recall the NY Times ran an article about it being one of

the last bars in US to hold out for MEN ONLY...as a matter of interest

this bar used to have its urinals right at the bar--so the legend

goes...I do recall seeing Corso in there one time and I assume other

NYbeats hit it on occassion. In Lower Manhattean the bar is famous and I

assume McSorleys beer now on the market is a rip off of the legend.

Patrick

eastwind@erols.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:54:56 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: McSorley's

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D. Patrick Hornberger wrote:

> 

> Dawn B. Sova wrote:

> >

> > Does anyone else (besides me) remember when women were thrown out of

> > McSorley's??   Three smart-ass college girls --- freshmen,  no less

> > (Montclair State) --- in the winter of 1968.  It wasn't our age, because the

> > drinking age in NY was 18, even though it was 21 in NJ.  We went back a few

> > weeks later --- just for another forbidden try.

> >

> > Dawn

> 

> When I weent to Cooper Union back in the 60's we hung out at

> McSorleys---(cheap beer, dirty with character) men only at that

> time--and as I recall the NY Times ran an article about it being one of

> the last bars in US to hold out for MEN ONLY...as a matter of interest

> this bar used to have its urinals right at the bar--so the legend

> goes...I do recall seeing Corso in there one time and I assume other

> NYbeats hit it on occassion. In Lower Manhattean the bar is famous and I

> assume McSorleys beer now on the market is a rip off of the legend.

> Patrick

> eastwind@erols.com

 

Awhile back i mentioned a book i'd picked up in Wichita from Charlie

Plymell's friend Pat O'Connor titled "Tales from A Blackout".  I

finished it awhile ago -- and it is really interesting to think of a

legend of a tavern or bar and the connection of various events in the

Wichita Vortex all running through to some degree this common place.  I

had the feeling at times of a fly on the wall kind of feeling.

 

I imagine that McSorley's and many of the other spots in the guide Bill

Gargan posted about have wonderful legends (as opposed to histories) as

well -- and wonder if anyone will brave the keyboards and attempt to

provide the folklore of these places.

 

It seems that The Legend of a Place is a wonderful way of connecting

various stories -- perhaps the converse of The Legends of the Road but

only in the lack of perpetual motion.  The Road or McSorley's tell the

stories themselves.

 

Hope that such things get considered.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:41:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Seuss as Beat Technical Writer

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971117092652.20920C-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

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 The following sent to me from fellow in Iowa City who has no idea where it

originated. Thought the list might find it entertaining.

j grant

 

 

 WHAT IF DR. SEUSS DID TECHNICAL WRITING?

 

If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port,

and the bus is interrupted as a very last resort,

and the address of the memory makes your floppy disk abort,

then the socket packet pocket has an error to report.

 

If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash,

and the double-clicking icon puts your window in the trash,

and your data is corrupted 'cause the index doesn't hash,

then your situation's hopeless and your system's gonna crash!

 

If the label on the cable on the table at your house,

says the network is connected to the button on your mouse,

but your packets want to tunnel on another protocol,

that's repeatedly rejected by the printer down the hall,

and your screen is all distorted by the side effects of gauss,

so your icons in the window are as wavy as a souse,

then you may as well reboot and go out with a bang,

'cause as sure as I'm a poet, the suckers gonna hang!

 

When the copy of your floppy's getting sloppy on the disk,

and the microcode instructions cause unnecessary risk,

then you have to flash your memory and you'll want to RAM your ROM.

Quickly turn off the computer and be sure to tell your mom.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:39:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac's Reading

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 While doing my research, I ran across this notebook entry of Kerouac's from

September 1951. This explains more of how Kerouac viewed himself as a writer.

He writes: "I'm going to be a Wolfean Proust, a Whitmanesque Dostoevsky, a

Melvillean Celine, a Faulknerian Genet - in fact a Kerouassadian Ginsbergian

Shakespeare."

  An irony is, that Ginsberg influenced Kerouac in his writing while

Ginsberg himself, at a round-table discussion at the Old Worthen in Lowell,

MA. on October 3rd, 1992, explained that he was very much an imitator of

Kerouac.

 

On anothervein, but the same thread:

 

  A precise notation of Kerouac about Twain's story,  "Mysterious Stranger"

can in fact be connected to his sketches for Doctor Sax. He quotes in his

notebook, "Life is a dream...you are but a vagrant thought wandering

forlornly in shoreless eternities." A careful reading of Twain's story can

draw many parallels to Kerouac and his ideas for Doctor Sax. This

observation from February 1950 leads Kerouac to write, "Man haunts the

earth. Man is on a ledge noising his life." The idea that we are amidst

eternity, that it lives on within and without us parallels Mysterious

Stranger with K's ideas for early plans of On the Road and Doctor Sax.

 

  That's all for now! Don't forget to buy the first volume of Selected

Letters in hardcover from us! They are brand new and will also come with a

free copy of The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. I, No. 2.

 

   See The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page!

    http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:38:02 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History

Mime-Version: 1.0

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On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:17:26 +0000 Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:17:26 +0000

> Subject: Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> intro to queer?

 

Probably.  But my library has lost its copy... which doesn't surprise me.  WSB

must be a well stolen author.  And I resent paying #7 (about $12 ?) for a new

 copy

of it.

I also found a photo of Joan - in my copy of El Hombre Invisible, print of the

newspaper reporting the incident.

 

Tom.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:19:45 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      James Laughlin, 83, Publisher of Revolutionary Writers

In-Reply-To:  <346C55E9.2140@sunflower.com>

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THE KITCHEN CLOCK

 

How can we make it run backwards,

That taciturn white circle with

Its torpid black hands? We only

Touch the hands when standard

Time comes to shorten or daylight

Saving to lengthen our days. That

Clock is lazy; I'd like to throw

Eggs at it. But I don't want it

To go forward faster, as if it

Were drawn by death. Let it run

Gently backwards, pausing to

Greet happy times again: the

Day when the schoolboy wrote

His first poem; the day when

The first jonquil bloomed in

His little garden; the day when

His father tossed him into the

Lake without water-wings to

Prove to him he could swim.

"En arriere, ruckwaerts" and "in

Dietro;" those are your orders,

Lazy clock, until the spring

Breaks and it doesn't matter

What you do anymore.

 

 

--James Laughlin

 

In Memoriam - James Laughlin

1914 - 1997

http://www.connectotel.com/marcus/laughlin.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:20:59 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: McSorley's

In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:40:36 -0500 from <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

 

I certainly remember the days before women were allowed in.  The old man at the

 door was like Cerberus keeping out both the fairer sex and those who were unde

rage.   When weomen were first allowed in back in the early 1970s, there was on

ly one restroom.  That was a lot of fun for a while.  Now, I'm happy to report

that there are separate facilities for men and women.  Lately, when I look arou

nd, I usually see almost as many women as men sipping their ales around the old

 coal stove.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:13:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: McSorley's

Comments: To: "D. Patrick Hornberger" <"eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com>

In-Reply-To:  <199711171534.KAA25585@smtp3.erols.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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I live right by Union square but Ive never seen McSorley's. Where is it?

 

 

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, D. Patrick Hornberger wrote:

 

> Dawn B. Sova wrote:

> >

> > Does anyone else (besides me) remember when women were thrown out of

> > McSorley's??   Three smart-ass college girls --- freshmen,  no less

> > (Montclair State) --- in the winter of 1968.  It wasn't our age, because the

> > drinking age in NY was 18, even though it was 21 in NJ.  We went back a few

> > weeks later --- just for another forbidden try.

> >

> > Dawn

> 

> 

> When I weent to Cooper Union back in the 60's we hung out at

> McSorleys---(cheap beer, dirty with character) men only at that

> time--and as I recall the NY Times ran an article about it being one of

> the last bars in US to hold out for MEN ONLY...as a matter of interest

> this bar used to have its urinals right at the bar--so the legend

> goes...I do recall seeing Corso in there one time and I assume other

> NYbeats hit it on occassion. In Lower Manhattean the bar is famous and I

> assume McSorleys beer now on the market is a rip off of the legend.

> Patrick

> eastwind@erols.com

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:31:40 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: more whitehead poetry

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Nanct Brodsky wrote on Nov. 17:

 

> It was Jim Croce...the album is called "dont mess with jim" or something

> like that....

> 

> 

> On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:

> 

> > Nancy Brodsky wrote:

> >

> > > Jim Croce also had the paranoia blues, from knocking around NYC too

> > > long...

> >

> > Are you sure you're not thinking of Paul Simon?  This is almost an

exact

> > quote from a song on his first solo LP.

> >

> > Jym

 

I guess New York City makes everyone a little paranoid.  :)

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:50:16 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History

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well if it's important to you, suck it up, join the ranks and pay the price.

 i've

had to do that for volumes in my own library never mind the public domain.

diff' strokes for diff' folks i guess

maybe you don't feel a need to read it. or suck it up. whatever.

mc

 

Tom wrote:

 

> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:17:26 +0000 Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> > From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

> > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:17:26 +0000

> > Subject: Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History

> > To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> >

> > intro to queer?

> 

> Probably.  But my library has lost its copy... which doesn't surprise me.  WSB

> must be a well stolen author.  And I resent paying #7 (about $12 ?) for a new

>  copy

> of it.

> I also found a photo of Joan - in my copy of El Hombre Invisible, print of the

> newspaper reporting the incident.

> 

> Tom.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:20:48 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Seuss as Beat Technical Writer

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thanks for the smile, jo: and you might even take a serious look at _oh the

places you'll go_ as an original beat book for kids:(however sexist but oh my

how that fits in with the beats <g>)

 

"you have brains in your head.

you have feet in yr shoes

you can steer youself

any direction you choose.

you're on your own. and you know what you know

and YOU are the guy

who'll decide where to go.

you look up and down streets. look 'em over with care

About some you'll say 'I don't choose to go there."

with your head full of brains and your shoes full of feet

you're too smart to go down a not-so-good street

and yoou may not find any

you'll want to go down'

in that case of course

 you'll head straight out of town.

it's opener there

in the wide open air.

out there things can happen

and frequently do

to people as brainy

and footsy as you.

and when things start to happen,

don't worry, don't stew.

just go right along

you'll start happening too.

 

OH THE PLACES YOU'LL GO!

you'll be on your way up!

you'll be seeing great sights!

you'll join the high fliers

who soar to high heights.

you won''t lag behind, because you'll have the speed.

you'll pass the whole gang and you'll soon take the lead

wherever you fly, you'll be best of the best.

where ever you go, you will top all the rest.

escept when you DON'T

becaus, sometimes you won't

i'm sorry to say so

but sadly it's true

that bang-ups and hang-ups can happen t o you

you can get all hung up

in a prickle-ly perch.

and your gang will fly on

you'll be left in a lurch

you'll come down from the Lurch

with an unpleasant bump

and the chances are, the,

that youl'' be in a slump

and when you're in a slump,

 you're not in for much fun

un-slumping yrself

is not easily done

 

you'll come to a place whre the streets ae not marked

some windows are lighted. but mostly theypre darked.

a place you could sprain both your elbow and chin!

do you dare to stay out? do you dare to go in?

how much can you lose ? ho much can you wn?

and IF you go in, shd you turn left or right..

or right and three quartyers, or maybe not quite"

or go around bak and sneak in from behind?

simple it's not I'm afraid you will find,

for a mind-maker-upper to make up his mind.

you can get so confused

that you'll start in to race

down long wiggled roads at a break necking pace

and grind on for miles across weirdish wild space,

headed, i fear, toward a most useless place.

 

THE WAITING PLACCE

 

for people just waiting.

waiting for a train to go

or a bus to come, or a plane to go

or the maile to come, or the rain to go,

or the phone to ring or the snow to snow

 or waiting around for a Yes or No

or waiting for their hair to grow.

everone is just waiting.

waiting for the fish to bit

or waiting for the wind to fly a kite

or waiting around for frieday night

or waiting perhaps for their uncle jake

or a pot to boil, or a Better Break

or a string of pearls, or a pair of pants

or a wig with curls or Another Chance.

everone is just waiting.

 

NO!

THAT'S NOT FOR YOU!

somehow you'll escape

all that waiting and staying

you'll find the bright places

where boom bands are playing

with banner flip-flapping,

once more you'll ride high!

ready for anyting under the sky

 

oh, the places you'll go! there is fun to be done!

there are points to be scored. there are games to be won

and the magical things you can do with that ball

will make you the winning-est winner of all

Fame ! you'll be famous as famous can be,

wit hthe whole wide world watching you win on tv

 

except when the y don't

because sometimes they won't

im'm afraid that sometimes you'll play lonely games too

games you cant' win

cause you'll play against you

 

ALL ALONE!

whether you like it or not

alone will be something  you'll be quite a lot

and when you're alone, there's a very god chance

you'll meet things that scare you right out of your pants

there are some, down the road between hither and yon

that can scare you  so much you won't want to go on

 

but on you will go

though the weather be foul

on you will go

though your enemies prowl

on you will go

through the Hakken-Kraks howl

onward up many

a frightening creek

though your arms may get sore

and your sneakers may leak.

 

on and on you will hike

and i know you'll hike far

and face up to your problems

whatever they are

you'll get mixed up of course,

as you already know.

you'll get mixed up

with many strange birds as you go

so be sure where you step

step with care and great tact

and remember that Life's

a Great Balancing Act.

just never foregert to be dexterous and deft

and never mix up your right foot with your left.

etc

words by dr suess

typos by me

whole damned enchalada dipped soundly with wine.

and so it goes...

 

 

 

 

 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:29:01 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

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in the grocery

without walt whitman

 

hey -

you ever been to that corner

in the grocery store?

the damaged goods?

cans with dings, dents, lost labels?

(all dramatically reduced in price

for a quick sale

for hearty adventurers

or the desperately hungry)

 

if so,

be quiet,

approach with caution

handle all of us with care

 

look real careful

look hard

hold yr breath

close yr eyes,

and

look again:

 

that's me in this corner

a dented soul-

damaged goods.

 

do you think you will

hear me?

see me?

 

and if so,

take the chance,

buy and open,

 

taste and

recognize me?

 

(that's me in the corner

dented and dinged,

awaiting

a pan to call home

 

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:36:13 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

never hit the send button when u r drunk

sorry all.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:34:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac Reading: 12-3-97

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I put up all the info on the Some of the Dharma reading and performances in

New York happening in December. Check The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page.

Included is the price, line-up (great!), and other pertinent information. Go to:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

                      thanks! Paul.....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:42:28 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: utne

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Michael Skau

Sent:   Sunday, November 16, 1997 3:50 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        utne

 

The current (Nov.-Dec.) issue of the _Utne Reader_ has a feature focus on

"Beyond Hip." An article by Tom Frank entitled "Let Them Eat Lifestyle"

has a picture of the GAP ad with Kerouac (p. 44); the article briefly

refers to this ad and discusses the Volvo ad which quoted from _On the

Road_ (p. 45). On the back page, under a picture of Bob Denver as

TVBeatnik Maynard G. Krebs, the magazine includes the following passage

from Mailer's _Advertisements for Myself_: "the beatnik is more likely to

have a good mind than a good body."--I guess the athletic Kerouac and

Cassady wouldn't fit the pattern of the beatnik.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

 

 

wow!  I don't know about you guys but that strikes me as being in very poor

taste.  After all these years Kerouac is still being seen as more of a symbol

than a writer.  It's the whole "King of the Beats" thing all over again.  This

kind of labeling helped to destroy him.  It seems dishonest somehow, using

someone's image to sell a product after they're dead.  I think it's kind of

disrespectful to his memory.  He would have hated it!!!!!! (In my opinion)

What are your impressions?

 

Shani

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:53:35 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         VIVA VIETCONG <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      harrington Book

 

I just received a copy of Alan Harrington's THE REVELATIONS OF DR.MODESTO via

interlibary loan. Has anyone ever read it? Just wondered if there were some

opinions on it, thanks.

 

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 02:06:27 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Beat fad?

 

What is at the root of the resurgence of interest in Beat culture and

literature?

Is it  just a fad?

 

 

Shani

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:33:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>What is at the root of the resurgence of interest in Beat culture and

>literature?

>Is it  just a fad?

 

     well... let me be the first to point out the obvious, and that's

the deaths of allen and bill within the same year..  secondly, i think

the beat doctrine validates the desired lifestyles of the young

generation, especially in a time when government and societorial

intrusion of privacy is at a high, and the go to school get a job get

married have kids house in the suburbs 2 cars life insurance retirement

hyseria is beaten into everyone's head on a daily basis.. it validates

the wanderlust carelessness lack of definite direction of the young

generation.. of which i am a part, so i don't wanna hear any whining

about what do i know from all you whuppersnappers out there.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:40:27 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Tyson Ouellette wrote:

>  of the young

> generation.. of which i am a part, so i don't wanna hear any whining

> about what do i know from all you whuppersnappers out there.

 

laughing not whining!  may the whuppersnappers beware!!!!!!!!!!!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:43:44 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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ain't it sad,

deaths equal a fad

even before

the deaths of AG and wsb

the Gap ads were out

yet

it is the death

the media flash in the pan

all over again.

first time out it killed jack

no one left to kill by lifestyle fame,

maybe this time

it ain't the same

but

i dunno.

cheers

mc

a toast to jack

may our livers meet safe in heaven

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:47:37 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> yet

> it is the death

> the media flash in the pan

> all over again.

> first time out it killed jack

> no one left to kill by lifestyle fame,

 

It wasn't fame or media hype that killed Jack, it was his own inability

to find anything in life positive enough to live for.  And his sorrow and

despair about the nature of human life was ingrained in his mind before

On the Road was even published or he had any kind of popularity at all.

Fame was at most an inconvenience, his attitudes about life were formed

early on.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:33:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac GAP ad

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711180141300177@classic.msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> has a picture of the GAP ad with Kerouac

 

Somewhere at some point I found a sharp copy of this online and stuck it

on my site but it disappeared somehow sometime and I've no clue as to

where I found it.  Does anyone know where this would be having run across

it?  Sometimes my own befuddledness amazes me.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:36:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

In-Reply-To:  <msg1242928.thr-587f7f30.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Tyson makes a valid point but I think it has a great deal to do with the

nostalgia that seems to characterize the 90s.  And a big reason of why

culture keeps looking backward for direction is that there's nothing or no

one now trying to take it forward, going back to some of my points in the

misbegotten Generation X thread.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:37:31 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: pome

Comments: To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199711180034.TAA21735@pike.sover.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

are you my angel?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:39:09 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: utne

Comments: To: "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711180141300177@classic.msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Of COURSE he would've hated it--it's just so bizarre--has anyone seen the

adbusters ad for jeans that says HITLER WORE KHAKIS?  Hitler in a

nonchalent pose, etc.  Pretty f**king funny, and makes the point

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

 

The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is

really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:39:36 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

Comments: To: "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711180205270983@classic.msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

no

 

The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is

really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:41:24 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

Comments: To: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <msg1242928.thr-587f7f30.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

It IS obvious but also true, as true now as 40 years ago--having your life

arranged for you by Consensus Reality--I mean, if you want a wife a

station wagon a dog plus 2.5 kids, fine--I am not being ironic,

actually--but to HAVE THAT LAID OUT FOR FOR YOU is horrific to anyone w/ a

brain--same now as in 1957, same (hopefully) 40 years from now...

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

 

The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is

really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:15:39 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hello Diane,

 

The other day you gave us a wonderful excerpt from Jack Kerouac's "Are

Writers Made or Born". I was struck especially with the following quote:

 

'Geniuses can be scintillating and geniuses can be somber, but it's the

inescapeable sorrowful depth that shines through--originality.'

 

I second you notion

 

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 17, 1997 9:27 PM

Subject: Re: Beat fad?

 

 

>> Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

>> yet

>> it is the death

>> the media flash in the pan

>> all over again.

>> first time out it killed jack

>> no one left to kill by lifestyle fame,

> 

>It wasn't fame or media hype that killed Jack, it was his own inability

>to find anything in life positive enough to live for.  And his sorrow and

>despair about the nature of human life was ingrained in his mind before

>On the Road was even published or he had any kind of popularity at all.

>Fame was at most an inconvenience, his attitudes about life were formed

>early on.

>DC

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:26:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Anthony Celentano <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: McSorley's

 

The famed palace of virility and debuach is located on East 7th Street (btw.

2nd and 3rd) in the East Village.  I used ta live a few doors down from that

thar drinkin house, and let me tell you, the odor of sticky beer was not

unpotent as it emanated from the hallowed doors of the ancient Place.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:15:09 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         WILLIAM PERRY <billp@NANAIMO.ARK.COM>

Organization: no company

Subject:      Re. James Laughlin

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Thanks to Rinaldo for sending along the tribute.  Jay Laughlin was my

next door neighbour in Norfolk.  Nice guy.  Skied with him a couple of

times, and was in awe of the fact he actually knew my beat heroes.

 

It made me feel kind of connected  to the scene just to know him. Being

a country beat or at least a beat lit reader living in the country

wasn't very common at the time.

 

He was kind enough to send a personal note along when he rejected my

book of poetry "Shadows of Norfolk" for publication.  Softened the blow

considerably .

 

Farewell, Jay.  Journey well.

 

Buffalo

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:57:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac GAP ad

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971117233058.4236D-100000@am.appstate.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I have a framed picture of this ad on my wall and also,a  framed picture

of a very young Allen Ginsberg from New Yorker.

 

 

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Alex Howard wrote:

 

> > has a picture of the GAP ad with Kerouac

> 

> Somewhere at some point I found a sharp copy of this online and stuck it

> on my site but it disappeared somehow sometime and I've no clue as to

> where I found it.  Does anyone know where this would be having run across

> it?  Sometimes my own befuddledness amazes me.

> 

> ------------------

> Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

> kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

> http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:40:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Anais Nin and AG

 

Marlene:

The relationship between Nin and Ginsberg wasn't deep, but they did know each

other.  To find her own references to their meeting you might check out the

1955-1966 sections of her diary.  I have the Harcourt Brace Jovanovich

edition which begins around page 63.  Good luck with your research.

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:37:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      Beat Fad

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

 

It's my theory that the 90's are a lot like the 50's- conservative,

security oriented, corporate, big government knows best- hence the

resonance beat literature is generating. It follows that the first

decade of the new millenium will be like the 60's all over again (only

more so this time). Anyone else thinking this way?

 

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:45:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: hey, let's have a wsb reading that..

 

Dear Marie:

Yes, I believe that you're right to say that Naked Lunch and Interzone

routines first came from letters to Ginsberg and maybe others.  I think that

they were not part of the letters though, they were separate routines that he

sent along with the letters.  Allen began saving them and saw their literary

value and encouraged Burroughs to put them together for a book.  I think he

encouraged all his friends to write books, though.  Other letters to books

would be similar, I guess.  Beatrix Potter's letters to children became Peter

Rabbit, etc., but they were simply "in" letters, still written as stories.

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:48:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation in NY

 

Bill:

Thanks for the kind words about the walking tour book.  Please be on the

lookout for any errors and/or typos in the book and let me know for future

reprintings.  And when you get to McSorley's next, give me a call.  And

whoever heard that urinals were at the bar, I think was mis-informed.

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:22:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      90's - 50's

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>It's my theory that the 90's are a lot like the 50's- conservative,

>security oriented, corporate, big government knows best- hence the

>resonance beat literature is generating. It follows that the first

>decade of the new millenium will be like the 60's all over again (only

>more so this time). Anyone else thinking this way?

> 

>Mark Hemenway

 

I've felt that way for the last ten years or so and I'm excited to see what

lies down the road. You can trace the cycle back through the decades well

before the 60's. The reform era bohemianism near the turn of the century.

Late 20's and 30's radicalism, the 60's. So much of how each swing

manifests itself has to do with the particular going-ons of the

culture/society at the time: the great depressio; Vietnam war and nuclear

threat of extinction. What will be happening a few years down the road? So

much has changed since the sixties, such a short time ago but oh so

different!

 

Looking toward the future with a heartbeat on the past.

 

Michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:22:15 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Just printed: new Rbt. Johnson etching

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

beat-L'ers

i have just complete a zinc etching of blues legend Robert Johnson. Unlike

my previous projects, that were were linoblock relief prints - this is

not. "Rbt.Johnson" is printed from an acid etched zinc plate (intaglio-

soft ground & aquatint) print, printed on high grade watermarked paper.

Etching allows for much more subtlety of image and i think

that this is one of the best pieces i have done. Paper size is 15"x22" and

the image size is 6"x9 1/2". I have run this etching in an edition of 6

(w/ one artist's proof) and have destroyed the plate.

        This edition is for sale for $20US per print, including shipping

and handling.

        if any of you are interested, pls let me know and i can send out

some further details and info.

        Thanks

        derek

****************************

Derek beaulieu

House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)

#5-933 3rd ave nw

calgary, alberta, canada, t2n0j7

"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition"

                                        -Jack Kerouac

*****************

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:38:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: utne

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.95.971117223806.13306B-100000@comp>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The advertising industry has almost erased reality. It's like a monster.

But if you go into the monster and look at one little cell it's a normal,

healthy, hard-working cell. I have friends in the industry. Good people,

but the "whole" is sick. I cranked out commercials and produced them for

radio years ago. Had fun, made money, but the horizon was clouded with

pollutants--coldn't see anything clearly enough to continue--just the

smudged green of money.

 

I'm reminded occasionally that my retirement income would be considerably

more than it is if I had kicked-back, cranked, and ignored the view rather

than tearing my pants climbing through fences.

But, living lean has it's advatages, advantages, advantages, advantages, ad

van  t a  ge s s s s...screech click.

 

j grant

 

>Of COURSE he would've hated it--it's just so bizarre--has anyone seen the

>adbusters ad for jeans that says HITLER WORE KHAKIS?  Hitler in a

>nonchalent pose, etc.  Pretty f**king funny, and makes the point

> 

>Don Lee

>Fayetteville, Ark.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:12:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Just printed: new Rbt. Johnson etching

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971118091419.24600A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Derek,

 

I'd like one. How do I pay for it?

 

J grant,

 

 

 

>beat-L'ers

>i have just complete a zinc etching of blues legend Robert Johnson. Unlike

>my previous projects, that were were linoblock relief prints - this is

>not. "Rbt.Johnson" is printed from an acid etched zinc plate (intaglio-

>soft ground & aquatint) print, printed on high grade watermarked paper.

>Etching allows for much more subtlety of image and i think

>that this is one of the best pieces i have done. Paper size is 15"x22" and

>the image size is 6"x9 1/2". I have run this etching in an edition of 6

>(w/ one artist's proof) and have destroyed the plate.

>        This edition is for sale for $20US per print, including shipping

>and handling.

>        if any of you are interested, pls let me know and i can send out

>some further details and info.

>        Thanks

>        derek

>****************************

>Derek beaulieu

>House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)

>#5-933 3rd ave nw

>calgary, alberta, canada, t2n0j7

>"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition"

>                                        -Jack Kerouac

>*****************

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:53:24 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:50:16 +0000 Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:50:16 +0000

> Subject: Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> well if it's important to you, suck it up, join the ranks and pay the price.

>  i've

> had to do that for volumes in my own library never mind the public domain.

> diff' strokes for diff' folks i guess

> maybe you don't feel a need to read it. or suck it up. whatever.

> mc

 

Just find sucking up difficult sometimes.

Caroline Cassady just gave a talk here.  Cool.  Asked her about Joan, but she

 never

met her.  Although she did talk about Ginsberg's theory that Joan might have

 been

suicidal, and moved slightly.  Interesting anyway.

 

Tom.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:19:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

In-Reply-To:  <msg1242928.thr-587f7f30.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>What is at the root of the resurgence of interest in Beat culture and

>>literature?

>>Is it  just a fad?

> 

>     well... let me be the first to point out the obvious, and that's

>the deaths of allen and bill within the same year..  secondly, i think

>the beat doctrine validates the desired lifestyles of the young

>generation, especially in a time when government and societorial

>intrusion of privacy is at a high, and the go to school get a job get

>married have kids house in the suburbs 2 cars life insurance retirement

>hyseria is beaten into everyone's head on a daily basis.. it validates

>the wanderlust carelessness lack of definite direction of the young

>generation.. of which i am a part, so i don't wanna hear any whining

>about what do i know from all you whuppersnappers out there.

 

A whippersnapper whining about whuppersnappers ?  :)

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:03:39 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "j." <NIEL1000@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

Subject:      Re: utne

 

Date sent:      Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:42:28 UT

Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:           "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:        Re: utne

To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Michael Skau

Sent:   Sunday, November 16, 1997 3:50 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        utne

 

 

it seems especially dishonest to be selling jk's soul on a gap ad:j.

 

The current (Nov.-Dec.) issue of the _Utne Reader_ has a feature focus on

"Beyond Hip." An article by Tom Frank entitled "Let Them Eat Lifestyle"

has a picture of the GAP ad with Kerouac (p. 44); the article briefly

refers to this ad and discusses the Volvo ad which quoted from _On the

Road_ (p. 45). On the back page, under a picture of Bob Denver as

TVBeatnik Maynard G. Krebs, the magazine includes the following passage

from Mailer's _Advertisements for Myself_: "the beatnik is more likely to

have a good mind than a good body."--I guess the athletic Kerouac and

Cassady wouldn't fit the pattern of the beatnik.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

 

 

wow!  I don't know about you guys but that strikes me as being in very poor

taste.  After all these years Kerouac is still being seen as more of a symbol

than a writer.  It's the whole "King of the Beats" thing all over again.  This

kind of labeling helped to destroy him.  It seems dishonest somehow, using

someone's image to sell a product after they're dead.  I think it's kind of

disrespectful to his memory.  He would have hated it!!!!!! (In my opinion)

What are your impressions?

 

Shani

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:07:39 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "j." <NIEL1000@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Fad

 

Date sent:      Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:37:45 -0500

Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:           "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:        Beat Fad

To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

It's my theory that the 90's are a lot like the 50's- conservative,

security oriented, corporate, big government knows best- hence the

resonance beat literature is generating. It follows that the first

decade of the new millenium will be like the 60's all over again (only

more so this time). Anyone else thinking this way?

 

Mark Hemenway

 

absolutely: its inevitable:j.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:28:28 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Fad

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:07 AM 11/18/97 MST/MDT, you wrote:

>Date sent:      Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:37:45 -0500

>Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From:           "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

>Subject:        Beat Fad

>To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>It's my theory that the 90's are a lot like the 50's- conservative,

>security oriented, corporate, big government knows best- hence the

>resonance beat literature is generating. It follows that the first

>decade of the new millenium will be like the 60's all over again (only

>more so this time). Anyone else thinking this way?

> 

>Mark Hemenway

> 

>absolutely: its inevitable:j.

> 

> 

 

Actually this is what they said in the 80's.  They said the 90's would be

like the 60's.

 

Remember that movie Flashback with Dennis Hopper and Kiefer Suthurland?

That was the catch phrase, something like: the 90's are going to make the

60's look like the 50's.

 

To me it's all hype and advertising all round.

 

"life is pretty cheap/it's sold a decade at a time" --Flipper (remember them?)

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:43:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Fad

In-Reply-To:  <199711181828.KAA17029@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Actually, I thought it was "The 90's are the 60's, upside down"

 

 

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> At 11:07 AM 11/18/97 MST/MDT, you wrote:

> >Date sent:      Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:37:45 -0500

> >Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> >From:           "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

> >Subject:        Beat Fad

> >To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> >

> >It's my theory that the 90's are a lot like the 50's- conservative,

> >security oriented, corporate, big government knows best- hence the

> >resonance beat literature is generating. It follows that the first

> >decade of the new millenium will be like the 60's all over again (only

> >more so this time). Anyone else thinking this way?

> >

> >Mark Hemenway

> >

> >absolutely: its inevitable:j.

> >

> >

> 

> Actually this is what they said in the 80's.  They said the 90's would be

> like the 60's.

> 

> Remember that movie Flashback with Dennis Hopper and Kiefer Suthurland?

> That was the catch phrase, something like: the 90's are going to make the

> 60's look like the 50's.

> 

> To me it's all hype and advertising all round.

> 

> "life is pretty cheap/it's sold a decade at a time" --Flipper (remember them?)

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:04:58 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Ode to Crazy Bull Caffe' in Piazzale Candiani

In-Reply-To:  <199711180245.VAA28266@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

marie wrote:

>a toast to jack

>may our livers meet safe in heaven

>mc

> 

        it's windy

                                (early in the morning)

 

        it's sunny

                                (in the morning)

 

        people didn't like

        being called for free

 

                                (before midday)

 

 

                        dear Sir! DEAR SIR!

                        sorry

                        for the disturbance!

 

        hoax

        blots

 

        HOAX 99% OF THE TIME,

 

                now

        (in the evening)

 

        dear Lord! sorry SORRY!

 

        we are A BUNCH OF boxers

 

        and of course god,

                        yep GOD,

                                god is a punch-drunk boxer.

 

 

---

Rinaldo

18th nov 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:25:41 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: hey, let's have a wsb reading that..

MIME-Version: 1.0

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thanks bill: i have a not too clear memory of a burroughs letter to AG in which

he wrote that the books were embedded in the letters, i didn't think of the

routines as separate attatchments, so to speak. i've started reading the

letters, and yes they do refer to pieces of writing (routines) which are not

written out into the letters i have read so far.

thanks again.

mc

 

Bill Morgan wrote:

 

> Dear Marie:

> Yes, I believe that you're right to say that Naked Lunch and Interzone

> routines first came from letters to Ginsberg and maybe others.  I think that

> they were not part of the letters though, they were separate routines that he

> sent along with the letters.  Allen began saving them and saw their literary

> value and encouraged Burroughs to put them together for a book.  I think he

> encouraged all his friends to write books, though.  Other letters to books

> would be similar, I guess.  Beatrix Potter's letters to children became Peter

> Rabbit, etc., but they were simply "in" letters, still written as stories.

> Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:49:09 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Fad

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971118134251.19043D-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Okay....I've been waiting to see which direction this thread is taking,

but I think now is the time to get in on this.  Since about 1989 or so,

I've been obcessed with Postwar culture (call it Postwar Cool, call it

Vintage, just don't call it Retro--I hate that word!! It's like "beatnik")

which has sort of snowballed.  It started with the Beat Generation, which

got me interested in other 50's youth subcultures.  This logically led me

to Rockabilly, and the rest is history.  I don't know how it happened, but

there's something about this music that just makes sense.  It moves you in

ways that Nirvana just can't.  Listen to "Love Me" by the Phantom and

you'll see what I mean.

I thrift-shop for our clothing, my husband and I drive a 1953 Chevy, we

collect furniture from the 40's and 50's (some early 60's stuff...).  It

wasn't really planned and it's not a "prerequisite to be Rockabilly"--HA!!

It's just that Heywood-Wakefield furniture is so much cooler and well-made

compared to that chrome and lucite crap in the stores nowadays.  Our car

will last a thousand years if we take care of it, unlike some of those

tennis-shoe shaped modern atrocities.  When I wear an outfit to a show, I

can be sure that I won't run into ten other women wearing the same thing

because I bought it at the mall. And if we didn't buy this stuff, it would

probably be in a landfill somewhere. IMHO, the 90's are completely void of

soul.  Is it any wonder that some people should look to the past for

inspiration?  Granted, my life is somewhat of an extreme example, but what

can I say?? Thrift shopping and garage sales are addicting. Real Rock and

Roll is addicting.  Most of what popular American culture today has to

offer couldn't get me up with a cannon and a drum.

 

Anne Sneddon

 

Now playing:  "Pinball Millionaire" by Ray Campi

 

 

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

 

> Actually, I thought it was "The 90's are the 60's, upside down"

> 

> 

> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> > At 11:07 AM 11/18/97 MST/MDT, you wrote:

> > >Date sent:      Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:37:45 -0500

> > >Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> > >From:           "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

> > >Subject:        Beat Fad

> > >To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> > >

> > >It's my theory that the 90's are a lot like the 50's- conservative,

> > >security oriented, corporate, big government knows best- hence the

> > >resonance beat literature is generating. It follows that the first

> > >decade of the new millenium will be like the 60's all over again (only

> > >more so this time). Anyone else thinking this way?

> > >

> > >Mark Hemenway

> > >

> > >absolutely: its inevitable:j.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Actually this is what they said in the 80's.  They said the 90's would be

> > like the 60's.

> >

> > Remember that movie Flashback with Dennis Hopper and Kiefer Suthurland?

> > That was the catch phrase, something like: the 90's are going to make the

> > 60's look like the 50's.

> >

> > To me it's all hype and advertising all round.

> >

> > "life is pretty cheap/it's sold a decade at a time" --Flipper (remember

 them?)

> >

> 

> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> Sure-JK

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:04:20 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Ode to Crazy Bull Caffe' in Piazzale Candiani

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

ihink you are onto something, rinaldo.

i enjoyed the pome,

wondering what psychotic post you got my toast to jack from.

marie

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> marie wrote:

> >a toast to jack

> >may our livers meet safe in heaven

> >mc

> >

>         it's windy

>                                 (early in the morning)

> 

>         it's sunny

>                                 (in the morning)

> 

>         people didn't like

>         being called for free

> 

>                                 (before midday)

> 

>                         dear Sir! DEAR SIR!

>                         sorry

>                         for the disturbance!

> 

>         hoax

>         blots

> 

>         HOAX 99% OF THE TIME,

> 

>                 now

>         (in the evening)

> 

>         dear Lord! sorry SORRY!

> 

>         we are A BUNCH OF boxers

> 

>         and of course god,

>                         yep GOD,

>                                 god is a punch-drunk boxer.

> 

> ---

> Rinaldo

> 18th nov 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:11:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: 90's - 50's

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>I've felt that way for the last ten years or so and I'm excited to see

>what

>lies down the road. You can trace the cycle back through the decades

>well

>before the 60's. The reform era bohemianism near the turn of the

>century.

>Late 20's and 30's radicalism, the 60's. So much of how each swing

>manifests itself has to do with the particular going-ons of the

>culture/society at the time:

 

     as interesting and appealing as it is to pigeonhole generational

tendencies into neat little cycles, i don't think it's very accurate.

even if it's evident that it has matched up before in this century,

you're talking a very limited time span out of eons of human existence.

 the same  cyclical diagram could be applied to war, every twentyish

years, ww1, ww2, vietnam... but that isn't really happening now.. it's

unrealistic to expect things to bend to habit.  and i think that

because we are in and even more so approaching a pretty unique period

nationally and globally the higher the chances that something entirely

unexpected will happen.  maybe, to use another potentially inaccurate

analogy, we're escaping the violent chaotic angst of our adolescence as

a country and approaching an age that has a need for stripping down to

simplicity and the simple pleasures that come with it.  i think the

beatific interest will continue to grow, whether it manifests itself as

a direct interest in the beat generation or just a similar doctrine

based upon a natural progression.  the coming decades though, it seems,

will definitely cater to an increased interest in simplicity and the

basics of human relations among themselved and to their environment.

despite exploding technology, i hope, we'll see a new allowance for

those who wish to remove themselves from the daily grind of 9-5 jobs

and the american obsession with what is essentially forced-labor in

this country.  let us hope the hobo will again have a place in american

society.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:16:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

 

Fad in the 50's.

 

Trend in the 60's.

 

Old news in the 70's.

 

Rediscovered in the 80's.

 

Classic in the 90's.

 

"cannon" in the 00's?

 

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:14:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>>  of the young

>> generation.. of which i am a part, so i don't wanna hear any whining

>> about what do i know from all you whuppersnappers out there.

 

>laughing not whining!  may the whuppersnappers beware!!!!!!!!!!!

 

     ack!  and of course i had to go mispell whippersnappers... what

can i say, i'm typing on my laptop and the jeys are so mouch more

crammed together...

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:19:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>It wasn't fame or media hype that killed Jack, it was his own inability

>to find anything in life positive enough to live for.  And his sorrow

>and

>despair about the nature of human life was ingrained in his mind before

>On the Road was even published or he had any kind of popularity at all.

>Fame was at most an inconvenience, his attitudes about life were formed

>early on.

 

     i think his "life is suffering" doctrine also was compounded by

his hopeful, romantic spirit, and the notion that his books would

awaken so many people to the wonders of beatitude, and on the whole

they didn't; or, they did, but not in the manner he expected.  as a

boddhisatva he suffered terribly at how others suffered, and it

compounded his own misery.  as he wrote, he even cries at bugs

upsdie-down in the street.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:27:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>> has a picture of the GAP ad with Kerouac

 

     gap's using kerouac!!!!!!  goddamnit, that's freaking blasphemy!

are they required to get permission from someone to use his image for

advertising purposes?  and, if so, would that person be who I'm

thinking of.  i dunno, maybe it's just my aversion to the gap

psychology.

     i do, on the other hand, love the levis commercials they've been

running, the ones that all fit in sequence in a kind of tarantino-ish

order.  there's one where the ice cream truck dud makes the kids answer

questions before they get their pops, like "Who's Jack Kerouac?" and

the kids whines "On the Road"  and then he asks the next kid "Who's

Birdland named after?" and the kid whines "Cha-lie Pah-Ka"  then the

guy asks if he was an alto or a tenor.... it's really great.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:23:16 -0500

Reply-To:     blackj@bigmagic.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>

Subject:      Re: ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL IN CENTRAL PARK 7/3/98

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON wrote:

> 

> Okay....I've been waiting to see which direction this thread is taking,

> but I think now is the time to get in on this.  Since about 1989 or so,

> I've been obcessed with Postwar culture (call it Postwar Cool, call it

> Vintage, just don't call it Retro--I hate that word!! It's like "beatnik")

> which has sort of snowballed.  It started with the Beat Generation, which

> got me interested in other 50's youth subcultures.  This logically led me

> to Rockabilly, and the rest is history.  I don't know how it happened, but

> there's something about this music that just makes sense.  It moves you in

> ways that Nirvana just can't.  Listen to "Love Me" by the Phantom and

> you'll see what I mean.

> I thrift-shop for our clothing, my husband and I drive a 1953 Chevy, we

> collect furniture from the 40's and 50's (some early 60's stuff...).  It

> wasn't really planned and it's not a "prerequisite to be Rockabilly"--HA!!

> It's just that Heywood-Wakefield furniture is so much cooler and well-made

> compared to that chrome and lucite crap in the stores nowadays.  Our car

> will last a thousand years if we take care of it, unlike some of those

> tennis-shoe shaped modern atrocities.  When I wear an outfit to a show, I

> can be sure that I won't run into ten other women wearing the same thing

> because I bought it at the mall. And if we didn't buy this stuff, it would

> probably be in a landfill somewhere. IMHO, the 90's are completely void of

> soul.  Is it any wonder that some people should look to the past for

> inspiration?  Granted, my life is somewhat of an extreme example, but what

> can I say?? Thrift shopping and garage sales are addicting. Real Rock and

> Roll is addicting.  Most of what popular American culture today has to

> offer couldn't get me up with a cannon and a drum.

> 

> Anne Sneddon

> 

> Now playing:  "Pinball Millionaire" by Ray Campi

> 

> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> 

> > Actually, I thought it was "The 90's are the 60's, upside down"

> >

> >

> > On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> >

> > > At 11:07 AM 11/18/97 MST/MDT, you wrote:

> > > >Date sent:      Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:37:45 -0500

> > > >Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> > > >From:           "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

> > > >Subject:        Beat Fad

> > > >To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> > > >

> > > >It's my theory that the 90's are a lot like the 50's- conservative,

> > > >security oriented, corporate, big government knows best- hence the

> > > >resonance beat literature is generating. It follows that the first

> > > >decade of the new millenium will be like the 60's all over again (only

> > > >more so this time). Anyone else thinking this way?

> > > >

> > > >Mark Hemenway

> > > >

> > > >absolutely: its inevitable:j.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Actually this is what they said in the 80's.  They said the 90's would be

> > > like the 60's.

> > >

> > > Remember that movie Flashback with Dennis Hopper and Kiefer Suthurland?

> > > That was the catch phrase, something like: the 90's are going to make the

> > > 60's look like the 50's.

> > >

> > > To me it's all hype and advertising all round.

> > >

> > > "life is pretty cheap/it's sold a decade at a time" --Flipper (remember

>  them?)

> > >

> >

> > The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> > Sure-JK

> >

 

Just wanna let everyone know that the NYC Parks Department has just

confirmed our ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL in Central Park on June 3, 1998,

Allen's 72d birthday.  Following is a copy of the recruitment letter we

have been sending out to those recommended (by those who are already

members) for membership in the ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE.  Big

plans are in the works for a global convocation of contemporaneity's

"Best Minds." --Al Aronowitz, secretary, THE ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL

COMMITTEE.

On the drive to Allen Ginsberg's funeral, poet/activist Amiri Baraka

kept bemoaning the probability that the services were going to take

place in a Buddhist meditation room too small to hold all those who

wanted to attend.

 

"But Allen's secretary [Bob Rosenthal] told me the funeral is going to

be private," I commented.

 

"You'll see," Amiri said.

 

In the Buddhist meditation room, some were sitting in chairs, some were

sitting on the floor, some were sitting on radiators.  The room was

jam-packed.  To watch the proceedings, some were forced to crowd into

the room's doorway, blocking it.  Some tried to hear what was going on

from the adjoining room.  Some were in the corridor.  Some were on the

sidewalk below.

 

Nor was St. Mark's Church accommodating enough to hold the crowd trying

to attend the Poetry Project's Memorial for Allen a week later.  Nor did

the Veteran Wadsworth Theater provide room enough for all those who

wanted to attend the memorial for Allen in Los Angeles a few weeks

afterwards.  There were memorials for Allen all around the country,

including Brooklyn, and my understanding is that the preponderance of

these memorials were in venues not large enough to accommodate all those

who wanted to attend.  In fact, more memorials for Allen are planned

throughout the globe.  A giant of our times has died and not all those

who wish to honor his memory have been given the opportunity to do so.

 

Which is one reason why Amiri and I, both of whom had known Allen for

some 40 years, decided to form an ad hoc organization known as THE ALLEN

GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE, enlisting the best minds of our times to

form a world-wide alliance of poets, writers, painters, musicians,

actors, photographers, filmmakers, educators and others prominent in the

intellectual community, the arts and allied fields.  Plus a lot of

people who just <I>knew</I> Allen or who felt any kind of kinship with

him.  The purpose of this committee is to honor the late Allen with a

memorial befitting such a giant: a gigantic <I>International</I> tribute

to be held in Central Park, a venue which ought to be large enough to

accommodate everyone who wants to be there.  Amiri, a New Jersey native

like Allen and like me, is also planning a second tribute in his home

town of Newark.  It is our intention that both these tributes represent

a gathering of some of the best minds of our times.

 

The membership of our committee keeps snowballing, with more names being

added every day from all parts of the world.  So far, the membership

includes such notables as Vaclav Havel, president of the Czech Republic;

actors Johnny Depp, Peter Coyote and Dennis Hopper; playwright Sam

Shepard; musicians David Amram, Pete Seeger, Kinky Friedman and Country

Joe McDonald; authors Toni Morrison, Kurt Vonnegut, Tom Robbins, George

Plimpton, Ken Kesey, Dr. Maya Angelou, Hunter Thompson and E.L.

Doctorow; photographer Robert Frank; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

songwriter Gerry Goffin; legendary music producers Ahmet Ertegun and

Jerry Wexler and on and on, plus Andrei Voznesensky, Lawrence

Ferlinghetti, Michael McClure amd former U. S. Poet laureate Rita F.

Dove heading a list of poets from around the globe.

 

And we keep seeking others to join our committee.  It is our hope that

our snowballing membership will turn into a movement in support of

Allen's worthiest causes and he championed many.  Who was it who said

that poets are the legislators of humankind?  Really, Allen was out to

save the world.  Isn't that a good cause?  His foremost message?  The

Devil is threatening our planet!  It's as if a meteor is hurtling toward

us and is about to impact on us all.  The Devil?  The Devil lives in all

of us, deep in our hearts.  The Devil has another name.  The Devil is

also called Greed.  Blinded by this Devil, we keep raping the earth,

ensuring that the earth inevitably will be rendered uninhabitable and

our species will become extinct.  Are we no more intelligent than the

dinosaurs?

 

As everybody knows, we can never beat the Devil but we MUST keep the

Devil at bay.  We'd like this movement to fight the Devil and we

encourage more memorial committees to stage tributes to Allen all around

the world.

 

But that was only one of the messages which ennobled Allen as one of the

world's great messengers.  And in his role as one of the world's great

messengers, Allen's greatest tool was "the word."  "The word," in fact,

is the basic tool of all the best minds of our times who will be on both

sides of the stage at our international Central Park tribute.

Consequently, we thought it only fitting that we should look to the

word-processing industry to sponsor and underwrite the costs of the

event.  After all, where would we be without the word-processing

industry and where would the word-processing industry be without us?

 

On behalf of the committee, I wrote a preliminary letter to feel out

Microsoft's William Gates, saying "We lack one important ingredient:

funding.  We will need a stage, sound amplification, lighting and a

crew.  Also, I imagine that the New York City Parks Department will

require insurance and police.  In addition, we will have to pay for

airline tickets and hotel rooms for those who we feel must appear at the

event but who are unable to pay their own expenses.  Plus, I'd like to

be reimbursed for the few hundred dollars I've already spent out of my

own pocket for postage, telephone and other necessities incident to

organizing the committee."

 

No dice, came the reply in a form letter from one of Mr. Gates'

spear-carriers.  But then there are other CEOs in the word-processing

industry who might be more sensitive to the wishes of that industry's

clientele.  We might also bombard Mr. Gates and the word-processing

industry with a letter-writing campaign.  We will also consider any

other corporate sponsors who might wish to underwrite our Central Park

tribute.  Perhaps even the tobacco industry.  Allen would enjoy that.

 

Our original intention was to hold the Central Park event in late August

of 1997 but when New York City Parks and Recreation Commissioner Henry

Stern ignored first one letter and then a second and then a third and

then a fourth and then a fifth, we had to keep postponing our target

date until the warm months of 1998, by which time we hope to have

persuaded Parks Commissioner Stern to take us seriously.  By then also,

Mr. Gates might be persuaded to have second thoughts.  A good date for

the event might be June 3, Allen's 72nd birthday, which we can celebrate

in his absence.

 

So far, the membership of THE ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE consists

of upwards of 125 names, including the following:

 

Amiri Baraka, Chairman

Eugene Brooks, Honorary Member

Connie Brooks, Honorary Member

Ann Brooks, Honorary Member

Edith Ginsberg, Honorary Member

David Amram, Robert Frank, Michael McClure, George Plimpton, Aram

Saroyan, Charlie Rothchild, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Amina Baraka, Jim

Ragan, Alfred Leslie, Ed Adler, Robert Creeley, Anne Waldman, Gary

Snyder, Yoko Ono, Ed Sanders, Ann Charters, Robert Viscusi, Bob Fass,

Eric Drooker, Tuli Kupferberg, Larry Sloman, St. Clair Bourne, Kinky

Friedman, John Tytell, Chris Felver, Joseph Grant, John Perry Barlow,

Andrei Voznesensky, Richard Cammarieri, Jonathan Lim, Fred McDarrah,

Kurt Vonnegut, Rosebud Pettet, John Zacherle, Barry Feinstein, David

Stanford, Levi Asher, Lillian Davis, Pete Hamill, David Greenberg, Danny

Schechter, Robert A. Sobieszek, Gerry Goffin, Barney Rosset, Hettie

Jones, Jerry Wexler, Jerome Rothenberg, Danny Shot, Arnold Weinstein,

Janine Vega, Robert Lavigne, Joel Dorn, Bill Gargan, Jimmy Lyons, Quincy

Troupe, Charley Plymell, Pamela Beach Plymell, Ed Dorn, Ellis Paul,

Brigid Murnaghan, Hiro Yamagata, Kevin Moore, George Reed, Latif

(William) Harris, Dennis Hopper, Johnny Depp, Joyce Johnson, Brett

Aronowitz Luke, Ray Bremser, Brenda (Bonnie Bremser) Fraser, Jules

Feiffer, Leonard Cohen, Oscar Janiger, Kathleen Delaney Janiger, Paul

Krassner, Arthur Perley. Attila Gyenis, Morris Dickstein, Taylor Mead,

Diane DiPrima, John Sampas, Gerald Nicosia, Steve Cannon, John Sinclair,

Ted Joans, Art D'Lugoff, Ahmet Ertegun, Fernando Rendon, Gloria Cavatal,

Marcus Williamson, Kenneth Koch, Birgitta Jonsdottir, Hayes Greenfield,

Merilene Murphy, Peter Hale, Pavel Grushko, Kirill P. Grushko, Toni

Morrison, John Ashbery, Sam Shepard, Michael Dean Odin Pollock, Mary

Rudge, Gozo Yoshimasu, Ken Kesey, Ken Babbs, Jonas Mekas, Peter Coyote,

Ide Hintze, George Krevsky, Dennis Gould, Bernard Kops, Irving

Rosenthal, Paul Nelson, George Aguilar, Krishna Fells, Lucas Gutierrez,

Andrew Matovich, Heather Haley, Jean Portante, E. Ethelbert Miller,

Andrea Thompson, Ken Sherman, Dave and Ana Christy, Barbara Read,

Theodore Wilentz, David Gascoyne, Regina Weinrich, Kevin Ring, Robin

Blaser, Carl Hanni, Ron Whitehead, Pi-Oh, Philip Salom, Dr. Maya

Angelou, Sharon Levy, Kathy Acker, Gordon Ball, Bob Holman, Bill

Berkson, Philip Whalen, Michael Scammell, Karen Kennerly, Charles Potts,

Scott Preston, Barry Gifford, Galway Kinnell, Robert Peters, Larry

Fagin, Robert Bove, Theo Dorgan, John Reeves, Vincent Farnsworth, Gloria

Frym, Gary David, Rita Dove, Larry Winfield, Natalie Goldberg, Steve

Sanfield, Douglas Brinkley, Vaclav Havel, Aaron Yamaguchi, Eithne

Strong, Joe McDonald, Kurt Heintz, Natalie Goldberg, Robert Lax, Andrei

Codrescu, Lee Ranaldo, Pete Seeger, Hunter Thompson, Clark Coolidge,

Jack Micheline, Joe Napora, Tom Robbins, David Hershkovits, John Brandi,

Barry Miles, Jonathan Williams, E.L. Doctorow.

 

Still awaiting positive responses from the following, all of whom have

been contacted:

 

Bob Dylan, John Eastman, Paul McCartney, Linda McCartney, Neil Aspinall,

Ron Delsener, George Harrison, John Wieners, Ishmael Reed, Bruce

Springsteen, Lew Lapham, Howard Stern, Don Imus, Tom Friedman, Frank

Rich, Sally Grossman, Liz Smith, Richard Goldstein, Joanne Kyger, Sara

Dylan, Richie Havens, Joel Siegal, Andrew Wylie, Ted Koppel, Cecil

Taylor, Scott Muni, Sterling Lord, Brian Hamill, Miguel Agarin, Brice

Marden, Jack Newfield, Henry Stern, Carolyn Cassady, Norman Mailer, Lisa

Phillips, Richard Gere, James Grauerholz, Jim Dickson, Ornette Coleman,

George Soros, Lita Hornick, Felipe Feliciano, Don Allen, Lew Welch,

Daisy Aldan, Barbara Guest, Gwendolyn Brooks, Ntozake Shange, Larry

Rivers, Archie Shepp, Odetta Gordon, Jaap Blonk, Michael Horovitz,

Miriam Patchen, Grace Paley, Peter Orlovsky, Howard Hart, Patti Smith,

Ani Di Franco, Megas, Dirk Gortler, Bill Morgan, Bono, Rand Ragusa, Lou

Reed, George Herms, Jack Hirschman, Alan Kaufman, Duncan McNaughton,

Holiness Dalai Lama, Jim Carroll, Michael Stipe, Lenny Kaye, Seamus

Heaney, Cathal O'Searcaigh, Peter Sirr, John Giorno, John Updike, Maggie

Estep, Thom Gunn, Annie Liebowitz, Beverly Smith, James Laughlin, Robert

Hunter, Brother Patrick Hart, Ron Seitz. Christopher Underwood, Jan

Pinkow, Marco Cassini, Hersch Silverman, Jordan Green, Michael Andre,

Reetika Vazirani, Ann Hollander, Ann Douglas, Valery Oisteanu, Matthew

Smith, Jerry Poynton, Jack Hirschman, Ron Padgett, Ellen Gilchrist,

Lionel Ziprin, Gelek Rintoche, Jan Pinkow, Steve Ben Israel, Robert

Pinsky, Nanao Sakaki, Carol Merrill.

 

Still to be contacted:

 

Yevgeny Yevtushenko, Jose Angel Figueroa, Sarah Wright, Marion Brown,

John Giorno, Gil Sorentino, Hubert Selby, Mrs. Bob Kaufman, Michael

Horovitz, Esteban Moore, Gonzalo Rojas, Ersi Sotiropoulou, Haroldo de

Campos, Tony Harrison, Mazisi Kunene, Lauri Anderson, Rickie Lee Jones,

Tom Waits, Joe Strummer, J. D. Salinger.

 

If you can provide addresses for any of the above or think of anyone

else who should be contacted, please let me know.  And if you have any

Email addresses you think I could use, please let me know that, too.

 

We wish to invite you to join our committee.  We seek to honor Allen

with all the recognition he strove so hard to gain for himself.  Allen

had started out with the goal of altering America's consciousness and he

not only achieved that goal but he also left his mark on the

consciousness of the entire world.  He was truly one of America's

heroes.  In soliciting your membership in this committee, Amiri and I

want to make it clear that your membership does not require your

appearance at or participation in this event.  What we ask is simply the

prestige of your name.  Whether or not you appear at this tribute is

entirely up to you.

 

All the above-listed members have received a printout of my BLACKLISTED

JOURNALIST Column 21, which reports the details of Allen's death and

which also begins a serialization of THE BEAT PAPERS OF AL ARONOWITZ,

based on my original Beat Generation series published in 1960 in the New

York Post, almost 40 years ago.  Or else those plugged into the Internet

have been directed to my website [ http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

], where they might find THE BEAT PAPERS OF AL ARONOWITZ, an expansion

of the New York Post series which still remains unpublished.  Column 21,

available at http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column21.html ,

includes an introduction concerning Allen's death and also includes

Chapter One of THE BEAT PAPERS, "BEAT," explaining the origins of the

use of "beat."  Chapter Two, "ST. JACK," [

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column22.html] features an

interview with Jack Kerouac which Jack annotated himself.  Jack also

annotated an interview with Neal Cassady in San Quentin Prison, which

comprises Chapter Three [

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column23.html ]  Chapter Four, <I>A

Certain Party</I>, tells about the very first "Beat" party I attended in

the apartment of Joyce Johnson, who was then Joyce Glassman [

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column24.html ].  If you would like

printouts, please let me know.

 

Best,

 

 

 

Al Aronowitz

1380 North Ave. #201

Elizabeth, NJ 07208

(908) 289 8776

blackj@bigmagic.com

 

--

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:44:19 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: Beat Fad

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hey, you're into 50's and 60's memorabilia, that's GREAT.  But don't say

the 90's don't have any soul... it just doesn't happen to be the *soul*

you are into collecting.

Yours truly,

the Rural Recluse

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:18:38 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:      90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

Comments: To: Sara Straw <saras@sisna.com>

In-Reply-To:  <3471FE23.6A4A@sisna.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

That may be my warped Las Vegas perspective on the world.  I am surrounded

by people who think of their cell phones and beepers as status symbols.  I

think I heard somewhere that we lead the country in breast implant

surgeries, which means that the amount of plastic in some Vegas women

rivals the amount of plastic in their wallets.  Our "founding fathers" are

knocking down all the original casinos to build their version of

Disneyland, and knocking down anything old to build strip malls.  The

Forum Shops at Caesar's palace (with Versace, Armani boutiques etc..) is a

popular teen hangout.  I'm quite sure that there is *spirituality* in this

world, but from where I'm sitting, there is no "soul."

Anne Sneddon

 

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Sara Straw wrote:

 

> Hey, you're into 50's and 60's memorabilia, that's GREAT.  But don't say

> the 90's don't have any soul... it just doesn't happen to be the *soul*

> you are into collecting.

> Yours truly,

> the Rural Recluse

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:17:09 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Aquila poems

In-Reply-To:  <199711182005.PAA06764@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The Dark Elves

 

 

 

We walk on trails of darkness-

Exploring the hidden corners of the mind-

We dance among the neurons-

Playing tag with fleeting memories-

We dwell in the mind-

Creating dreams and nightmares-

We gaurd the dark secrets-

Those that you hide from yourself-

Those you will not let yourself come to know-

Those that you will not let yourself see-

Those that terrify you-

Terrify you because they are the truth-

We are deep secrets-

We are forgotten memories-

We are lost dreams-

And we are with you always-

Lurking, hiding always from your concious-

Dwelling only in the shadows-

Deep in the sub-concious-

 

http://www.rain.org/aqpoem.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:27:45 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "j." <NIEL1000@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Fad

 

Date sent:      Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:28:28 -0800

Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:           "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:        Re: Beat Fad

To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

At 11:07 AM 11/18/97 MST/MDT, you wrote:

>Date sent:      Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:37:45 -0500

>Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From:           "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

>Subject:        Beat Fad

>To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

a lot of this is due to capitalism: exploitation of previous

generations repackaged and sold to todays youth: old values in a new

box i suppose: but history as well as fashion and music repeats

itself: but the nineties seem to be a conglomeration of the past 30

years: there isnt much intellect circulating out there: this beat-l

thing is sweet for its esthetic qualities(which i hate to speak of):

i see more resurge of the 1960s and 1970s with more responsibilty

tagged on in todays generation than i do of the 50s and the beats: my

peers are all making statements but they dont know why: feeding

the american monster i guess: the beats

knew what was up: the hippies just wanted an excuse for drug use and

promiscuous sex: and the 70's: sheesh:

anyway: j.

>It's my theory that the 90's are a lot like the 50's- conservative,

>security oriented, corporate, big government knows best- hence the

>resonance beat literature is generating. It follows that the first

>decade of the new millenium will be like the 60's all over again (only

>more so this time). Anyone else thinking this way?

> 

>Mark Hemenway

> 

>absolutely: its inevitable:j.

> 

> 

 

Actually this is what they said in the 80's.  They said the 90's would be

like the 60's.

 

Remember that movie Flashback with Dennis Hopper and Kiefer Suthurland?

That was the catch phrase, something like: the 90's are going to make the

60's look like the 50's.

 

To me it's all hype and advertising all round.

 

"life is pretty cheap/it's sold a decade at a time" --Flipper (remember them?)

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:19:32 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ode to Crazy Bull Caffe' in Piazzale Candiani

 

Bravissimo Rinaldo!!  mille grazie per la sua poesia!

 

arrivaderla, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Rinaldo Rasa

Sent:   Tuesday, November 18, 1997 11:04 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Ode to Crazy Bull Caffe' in Piazzale Candiani

 

marie wrote:

>a toast to jack

>may our livers meet safe in heaven

>mc

> 

        it's windy

                                (early in the morning)

 

        it's sunny

                                (in the morning)

 

        people didn't like

        being called for free

 

                                (before midday)

 

 

                        dear Sir! DEAR SIR!

                        sorry

                        for the disturbance!

 

        hoax

        blots

 

        HOAX 99% OF THE TIME,

 

                now

        (in the evening)

 

        dear Lord! sorry SORRY!

 

        we are A BUNCH OF boxers

 

        and of course god,

                        yep GOD,

                                god is a punch-drunk boxer.

 

 

---

Rinaldo

18th nov 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:38:11 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:18 PM 11/18/97 -0800, you wrote:

>That may be my warped Las Vegas perspective on the world.  I am surrounded

>by people who think of their cell phones and beepers as status symbols.  I

>think I heard somewhere that we lead the country in breast implant

>surgeries, which means that the amount of plastic in some Vegas women

>rivals the amount of plastic in their wallets.  Our "founding fathers" are

>knocking down all the original casinos to build their version of

>Disneyland, and knocking down anything old to build strip malls.  The

>Forum Shops at Caesar's palace (with Versace, Armani boutiques etc..) is a

>popular teen hangout.  I'm quite sure that there is *spirituality* in this

>world, but from where I'm sitting, there is no "soul."

>Anne Sneddon

> 

>On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Sara Straw wrote:

> 

>> Hey, you're into 50's and 60's memorabilia, that's GREAT.  But don't say

>> the 90's don't have any soul... it just doesn't happen to be the *soul*

>> you are into collecting.

>> Yours truly,

>> the Rural Recluse

>> 

> 

 

 

I've been thinking for some years now that its madness.

Everything you read in a newspaper is theatre of the

absurd.  We're post something these days.  Marching up

to the millenium without a clue. Its ridiculous, its

even somewhat fun.  I don't know what's going to happen.

I hate to say it, but its a great time to be alive.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:44:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

In-Reply-To:  <msg1247782.thr-3ff78936.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Tyson Ouellette wrote:

>     gap's using kerouac!!!!!!  goddamnit, that's freaking blasphemy!

>are they required to get permission from someone to use his image for

>advertising purposes?  and, if so, would that person be who I'm

>thinking of.  i dunno, maybe it's just my aversion to the gap

>psychology.

>     i do, on the other hand, love the levis commercials they've been

>running, the ones that all fit in sequence in a kind of tarantino-ish

>order.  there's one where the ice cream truck dud makes the kids answer

>questions before they get their pops, like "Who's Jack Kerouac?" and

>the kids whines "On the Road"  and then he asks the next kid "Who's

>Birdland named after?" and the kid whines "Cha-lie Pah-Ka"  then the

>guy asks if he was an alto or a tenor.... it's really great.

 

Tyson,

 

Permission to use Jack Kerouac in that GAP ad came from John Sampas, the

executor of the Keroauc Estate.

 

Sampas can do anything he wants with Jack Kerouac's image. How much they

paid Sampas is hard to tell, but I'd guess it was a substantial amount.

 

Maybe Sampas will provide that information to the Keroauc Scholars,

researchers, students, et al who frequent the Beat List and for the Kerouac

Underground Archive that grows and grows and grows, while the Keroauc

Literary Archive shrinks and shrinks and shrinks.

 

j grant

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:58:06 -0800

Reply-To:     "Nancy J. Peters" <nancyp@wenet.net>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Nancy J. Peters" <nancyp@WENET.NET>

Organization: CITY LIGHTS BOOKS

Subject:      NEW BEAT GENERATION BOOKS FROM CITY LIGHTS

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

------------------------------------------------------------=20

CHECK OUT TWO NEW BEAT GENERATION BOOKS FROM CITY LIGHTS PUBLISHERS, SAN

FRANCISCO:

> [To order please fax to (415) 362-4921 or call our mail order phone lin=

e

> at (415) 362-1041 or write to City Lights Mail Order  261 Columbus Ave.

> San Francisco, CA 94133.  Add $2.50 per book for shipping.]

>=20

> NOW AVAILABLE FROM CITY LIGHTS PUBLISHERS:

> 1) THE BEAT GENERATION IN NEW YORK

> A Walking Tour of Jack Kerouac's City

> by Bill Morgan

> $12.95

>=20

>         Set off on the errant trail of the Beat experience in the city =

that

> inspired many of Jack Kerouac=92s best-loved novels including On the Ro=

ad,

> Vanity of Duluoz, The Town and the City, and Desolation Angels.  This i=

s

> the ultimate guide to Kerouac=92s New York, packed with photos of the B=

eat

> Generation, and filled with undercover information and little-known

> anecdotes.

>=20

>         Eight easy-to-follow walking tours guide you to:

>         =95       Greenwich Village bars and caf=E9s where Kerouac and =

his friends Allen

> Ginsberg, Neal Cassady, William Burroughs, Diane di Prima, Gregory

> Corso, Hettie and LeRoi Jones, John Clellon Holmes, Joyce Johnson, and

> others read poetry, drank, turned-on, and talked all night long.

>         =95       The Chelsea district apartment where Jack wrote On Th=

e Road.

>         =95       Mid-town clubs where Beat poets mingled with artists =

Jackson Pollock

> and Willem de Kooning, and listened to jazz and blues greats Charlie

> Parker, Miles Davis, and Billie Holiday.

>         =95       Times Square, a magnet for Kerouac and the Beats.

>       =95 Columbia University, where the original Beats first met and

> began

>             a revolution in American literature and culture.

>=20

>         Each tour includes a map of the neighborhood, subway and bus

> information, and an insider=92s angle on Jack Kerouac=92s life in New Y=

ork.

> A must for Beat enthusiasts and critics.

>=20

>         Bill Morgan is a painter and archival consultant working in New=

 York

> City.  His previous publications include The Works of Allen Ginsberg

> 1941-1994: A Descriptive Bibliography and Lawrence Ferlinghetti: A

> Comprehensive Bibliography.  He has worked as an archivist for Allen

> Ginsberg, Abbie Hoffman, and Timothy Leary.

>=20

> 2) NEW BEAT GENERATION BOOK FROM CITY LIGHTS PUBLISHERS:

> TRACKING THE SERPENT

> Journeys to Four Continents

> By Janine Pommy Vega

> $12.95

>=20

> Janine Pommy Vega is the author of twelve books of poetry and

> performance pieces.  At the age of 15 she left home for New York where

> she joined the Beat Generation poets and artists.  She is featured in

> the recent anthology, Women of the Beat Generation (Conari Press 1996)

> and A Different Beat: Writings by Women of the Beat Generation

> (Serpent=92s Tail 1997).  For many years she has worked with Poets in t=

he

> Schools programs.  A member of PEN=92s Prison Writing Committee, she ha=

s

> been the director of Incisions/Arts, an organization of writers working

> with people behind bars.

>=20

>         From Israel to Paris, from England to the Amazon, from Peru=92s

> Cordillera Blanca to the Nepalese Himalayas: these are the locales of

> the true-life adventures of a woman who ranged over four continents in =

a

> search for excitement and knowledge.

>         Recovering from an automobile accident, Vega makes a pilgrimage=

 to

> ancient European sites of female power worship: Chartres Cathedral, the

> high hills of Ireland, and Southern England.  An interview with a

> Canadian smuggler in Lima=92s Chorillos prison takes her to the Amazon,

> where she lives at a penal colony and visits people in the jungle who

> invite her to a yage ceremony.  On a dangerous trek through the Peruvia=

n

> Andes she observes the wisdom and skills of her companions; and in the

> Himalayas, seeking remnants of a civilization built around female power=

,

> she discovers how complex myths illuminate the everyday realities of th=

e

> people of Nepal.

>         Vega writes, =93You do not need to know what you are looking fo=

r, only

> that you urgently need to find something.  The urgency does the work,

> the readiness to receive finds the answers.=94

>=20

> MORE PRAISE FOR JANINE POMMY VEGA=92S

> TRACKING THE SERPENT:

>=20

> The Boston Phoenix: Vega=92s book is a quasi-anthropological outpouring=

 on

> the order of Henry Miller=92s The Colossus of Maroussi, or anything by

> Lawrence Durrell.  Her writing exudes the grit of trekking alone in the

> Annapurna  mountains of Nepal, spending months in the Amazon jungle,

> braving rocky steeps and altitude sickness to climb the cordilleras  of

> the Andes. Yet this is no mere chest-thumping record of adventure

> travel. Woven into Vega=92s travelogue is her compelling personal

> narrative... Fascinated by the survival of ancient, poetic faiths in

> remote agricultural regions across the globe, she becomes both scholar

> and mystic-- a Boddhisattva seeking an image of herself among the ruins.

>=20

> The Buffalo News: Tracking the Serpent  focuses  on self-realization

> through experience of the natural world. Vega continually challenges th=

e

> limits of her physical and psychological endurance, the expression of

> her own sexulaity, even her ability as a woman and writer to gain acces=

s

> to the varieties of experience she needs to interpret the myths and

> belief systems that purport to explain the natural world.  The strength

> of this book lies in its ability to link narratives of natural

> experience to accounts of spiritual transformation. Vega=92s voice is

> never stronger than when her ego dissolves in the extremes of her

> worldly adventure.

>=20

> Booklist: Throughout the trips of this highly personal memoir, the

> spirits of goddesses seem to pull Vega, relentlessly searching for the

> female divinity, along disparate pathways long associated with ancient

> imagery depicting spirals and serpents.  Vega does not shirk from

> exploring her own erotic urges, either; in detailing encounters with

> lovers, she portrays a questioning , sensual nature-- one that revels i=

n

> the spiritual as well as the corporal aspects of a passionately

> experienced existence.

>=20

> Jennifer Stone, KPFA, Berkeley, CA:  In Tracking the Serpent  there=92s=

 a

> living language, a living human being.  A renaissance woman, Vega goes

> to so many places.  Like Henry Miller, she =93tears off a piece.=94

>=20

> [To order please fax to (415) 362-4921 or call our mail order phone lin=

e

> at (415) 362-1041 or write to City Lights Mail Order  261 Columbus Ave.

> San Francisco, CA 94133.  Add $2.50 per book for shipping.]

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:24:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

In-Reply-To:  <msg1247782.thr-3ff78936.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

That gap ad is quite old....GAP has already been sued by the estate...

 

 

 

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >> has a picture of the GAP ad with Kerouac

> 

>      gap's using kerouac!!!!!!  goddamnit, that's freaking blasphemy!

> are they required to get permission from someone to use his image for

> advertising purposes?  and, if so, would that person be who I'm

> thinking of.  i dunno, maybe it's just my aversion to the gap

> psychology.

>      i do, on the other hand, love the levis commercials they've been

> running, the ones that all fit in sequence in a kind of tarantino-ish

> order.  there's one where the ice cream truck dud makes the kids answer

> questions before they get their pops, like "Who's Jack Kerouac?" and

> the kids whines "On the Road"  and then he asks the next kid "Who's

> Birdland named after?" and the kid whines "Cha-lie Pah-Ka"  then the

> guy asks if he was an alto or a tenor.... it's really great.

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:50:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Some of the Dharma Readings & Performances

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Update on participants at the Some of the Dharma reading in New

York..(Willem Dafoe!) and all other pertinent info at The Kerouac Quarterly

Web Site.

 

  Get your sample copy of The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. I, No. 1 there!

                                -or-

  Hardcover Selected Letters: 1940-1956 1st Edition for $10.00 + free issue!

 

Latest news updates!

  (Tom Waits to sing "Home I'll Never Be" with Jack Kerouac and Primus! on

   Geffen Records in early 1998)

 

 

 Go to:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

                             Thanks all! Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:32:26 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Theory <gros4389@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Fad

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

> Okay....I've been waiting to see which direction this thread is taking,

> but I think now is the time to get in on this.  Since about 1989 or so,

> I've been obcessed with Postwar culture (call it Postwar Cool, call it

> Vintage, just don't call it Retro--I hate that word!! It's like "beatnik")

> which has sort of snowballed.  It started with the Beat Generation, which

> got me interested in other 50's youth subcultures.  This logically led me

> to Rockabilly, and the rest is history.  I don't know how it happened, but

> there's something about this music that just makes sense.  It moves you in

> ways that Nirvana just can't.

 

Music people have grown up with moves then I think.

 

  Listen to "Love Me" by the Phantom and

> you'll see what I mean.

 

 

 

> I thrift-shop for our clothing, my husband and I drive a 1953 Chevy, we

> collect furniture from the 40's and 50's (some early 60's stuff...).  It

> wasn't really planned and it's not a "prerequisite to be Rockabilly"--HA!!

> It's just that Heywood-Wakefield furniture is so much cooler and well-made

> compared to that chrome and lucite crap in the stores nowadays.

 

your right there, older stuff is generally made much better.

 

 Our car

> will last a thousand years if we take care of it, unlike some of those

> tennis-shoe shaped modern atrocities.

 

Germlins are the best

 

When I wear an outfit to a show, I

> can be sure that I won't run into ten other women wearing the same thing

> because I bought it at the mall. And if we didn't buy this stuff, it would

> probably be in a landfill somewhere. IMHO, the 90's are completely void of

> soul.

 

 

 Is it any wonder that some people should look to the past for

> inspiration?  Granted, my life is somewhat of an extreme example, but what

> can I say?? Thrift shopping and garage sales are addicting.

 

I'll buy that for a dollar.

 

 Real Rock and

> Roll is addicting.  Most of what popular American culture today has to

> offer couldn't get me up with a cannon and a drum.

 

Music is much different today than 10 years ago. What kind of rock

and roll are you referring to?

 

> 

> Anne Sneddon

> 

> Now playing:  "Pinball Millionaire" by Ray Campi

> 

> 

> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:00:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Are you sure Nancy that the estate has sued? See the copy of the e-mail

below that I just sent Joe Grant.

 

        Antoine

 

                        ***************

 

Jo,

 

        You might just check with Gerry Nicosia on the Kerouac image in the

GAP ad. As he explained, under California law - and the law of some other

states and countries - the use of the image is retained by the immediate

family and their heirs. Gerry had made the point that in CA he had the right

to license use of Kerouac images - or perhaps the Jan Kerouac estate stood

to benefit from their use. One or the other.....

 

        By the way on a recent visit to bookzen site I printed off some of

the library related material and bookmarked it for my wife who is in first

year of a graduate studies course in Library and Information Management at

McGill University. Looked like pretty useful links.  The program has a heavy

automated services perspective; online databases, computerized library

systems and searches of the same. etc.

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:35:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997111821005480@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Yes, when the ad came out, I remember reading that Kerouac's estate or

some other rep of Kerouac sued the Gap for using his likeness without

permission...

 

 

 

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Antoine Maloney wrote:

 

> Are you sure Nancy that the estate has sued? See the copy of the e-mail

> below that I just sent Joe Grant.

> 

>         Antoine

> 

>                         ***************

> 

> Jo,

> 

>         You might just check with Gerry Nicosia on the Kerouac image in the

> GAP ad. As he explained, under California law - and the law of some other

> states and countries - the use of the image is retained by the immediate

> family and their heirs. Gerry had made the point that in CA he had the right

> to license use of Kerouac images - or perhaps the Jan Kerouac estate stood

> to benefit from their use. One or the other.....

> 

>         By the way on a recent visit to bookzen site I printed off some of

> the library related material and bookmarked it for my wife who is in first

> year of a graduate studies course in Library and Information Management at

> McGill University. Looked like pretty useful links.  The program has a heavy

> automated services perspective; online databases, computerized library

> systems and searches of the same. etc.

> 

>         Antoine

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

> 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:08:26 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      the italian judge

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hey list,

as much fun as ive been having reading, responding,

and learning, there is just too much going on.

but before i sign off again (inevitably to return, as

before), i have a question.

i teach a writing seminar, and i am restructuring my

section on audience: intended vs. actual, implied vs.

overt.  i am using kerouacs "letter to an italian

judge" and the "subterraneans."  part of the

assignment will involve what exactly kerouac could be

responding to.  this is partly because i do not have a

copy of the judges response.  if anyone out there

knows where i might get a copy, i would appreciate it.

i know i have asked this question before (for those

who remember), but i thought id ask again before

taking a break from the list.

i can be responded to either through the list or at

donahujl@moa.bc.edu

thank youfor any help, guidance, or direction anyone

may be able to provide.

jim donahue

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:36:50 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Diane Carter

Sent:   Monday, November 17, 1997 2:47 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Beat fad?

 

> Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> yet

> it is the death

> the media flash in the pan

> all over again.

> first time out it killed jack

> no one left to kill by lifestyle fame,

 

It wasn't fame or media hype that killed Jack, it was his own inability

to find anything in life positive enough to live for.  And his sorrow and

despair about the nature of human life was ingrained in his mind before

On the Road was even published or he had any kind of popularity at all.

Fame was at most an inconvenience, his attitudes about life were formed

early on.

DC

 

 

i agree with you for the most part.  But, he (much like N.C) couldn't deal

with the expectations and pressure placed on him by the public.  The public's

view of jack were and are manipulated by the media.  I don't think he knew how

to reconcile his inner being with his public image . As a result, he began to

"lose" himself.  Maybe that was his goal?! He no longer wanted to deal with

life. Fame or media hype didn't kill him.  Rather, the inability to deal with

it.  His upbringing is one reason for his inability.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:42:03 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat Fad

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Hemenway . Mark

Sent:   Tuesday, November 18, 1997 8:37 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Beat Fad

 

It's my theory that the 90's are a lot like the 50's- conservative,

security oriented, corporate, big government knows best- hence the

resonance beat literature is generating. It follows that the first

decade of the new millenium will be like the 60's all over again (only

more so this time). Anyone else thinking this way?

 

Mark Hemenway

 

I absolutely agree!!!!!!! Most definitely!!!!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:34:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>I've been thinking for some years now that its madness.

>Everything you read in a newspaper is theatre of the

>absurd.  We're post something these days.  Marching up

>to the millenium without a clue. Its ridiculous, its

>even somewhat fun.  I don't know what's going to happen.

>I hate to say it, but its a great time to be alive.

 

     something to think about: was watching the national news tonight,

the female reporter was smiling as she reported on the upcoming

execution of a man this evening and a brand new execution chamber being

built in the state that the execution is taking place in.  am i in the

minority in being severely disturbed by this?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:39:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

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>The public's view of jack were and are manipulated by the media.  I

>don't think he knew how

>to reconcile his inner being with his public image . As a result, he

>began to

>"lose" himself.  Maybe that was his goal?! He no longer wanted to deal

>with

>life. Fame or media hype didn't kill him.  Rather, the inability to

>deal with

>it.  His upbringing is one reason for his inability.

 

     interestingly enough, this is exactly what happened to elvis, a

man who had the same effect on a generation.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:45:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

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>Permission to use Jack Kerouac in that GAP ad came from John Sampas, the

>executor of the Keroauc Estate.

 

>Sampas can do anything he wants with Jack Kerouac's image. How much they

>paid Sampas is hard to tell, but I'd guess it was a substantial amount.

 

     that's who i was thinking of...  well... it's peculiar to me to

say the least... i'll refrain from starting anything, cause i can see

the positives and negatives...  it's not a big enough deal.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:49:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

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>That gap ad is quite old....GAP has already been sued by the estate...

 

     ok, so permission wasn't granted by the estate then...  i think

it's a little distateful to do this... it's like the hoover fred astair

commercials... it just tastes bad.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:12:00 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      beat the last generation

In-Reply-To:  <199711182005.PAA06764@pike.sover.net>

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http://www.apsv.it/beat/index.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:19:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

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At 11:45 PM 11/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>Permission to use Jack Kerouac in that GAP ad came from John Sampas, the

>>executor of the Keroauc Estate.

> 

>>Sampas can do anything he wants with Jack Kerouac's image. How much they

>>paid Sampas is hard to tell, but I'd guess it was a substantial amount.

> 

>     that's who i was thinking of...  well... it's peculiar to me to

>say the least... i'll refrain from starting anything, cause i can see

>the positives and negatives...  it's not a big enough deal.

> 

> 

So Sampas sold Jack to the Gap.  How awful.  I saw most of those

gap ads in the Times Magazine this summer and thought the

literary consciousness required to know some of the players, meant

the ads were directed at a very educated upscale crowd.  How many

mainstream people know Truman Capote and Jack Kerouac, after all.  How

about J D Salinger wearing a pair of Khakis and aiming a rifle at a

photographer from the porch of his New Hampshire home?  Or JFK opening

a white house door and disovering Judith Campbell Exner, both of them clad

in khakis, of course.  The Gap's ad agency missed a lot of potential

scenarios.  Perhaps its time to turn the idea over to Calvin Klein and

see what he can do with it.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:34:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

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At 03:19 AM 11/19/97 -0600, you wrote:

>At 11:45 PM 11/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>>Permission to use Jack Kerouac in that GAP ad came from John Sampas, the

>>>executor of the Keroauc Estate.

>> 

>>>Sampas can do anything he wants with Jack Kerouac's image. How much they

>>>paid Sampas is hard to tell, but I'd guess it was a substantial amount.

>> 

>>     that's who i was thinking of...  well... it's peculiar to me to

>>say the least... i'll refrain from starting anything, cause i can see

>>the positives and negatives...  it's not a big enough deal.

>> 

>> 

>So Sampas sold Jack to the Gap.  How awful.  I saw most of those

>gap ads in the Times Magazine this summer and thought the

>literary consciousness required to know some of the players, meant

>the ads were directed at a very educated upscale crowd.  How many

>mainstream people know Truman Capote and Jack Kerouac, after all.  How

>about J D Salinger wearing a pair of Khakis and aiming a rifle at a

>photographer from the porch of his New Hampshire home?  Or JFK opening

>a white house door and disovering Judith Campbell Exner, both of them clad

>in khakis, of course.  The Gap's ad agency missed a lot of potential

>scenarios.  Perhaps its time to turn the idea over to Calvin Klein and

>see what he can do with it.

> 

>Mike Rice

>Jack was on good company in those ads....Salvador Dali wore

khakis...Ginsberg wore...Albert Einstein wore...Miles Davis....he could have

been in worse things such as Burroughs and Nikes...Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:14:09 +0000

Reply-To:     caridade@mail.telepac.pt

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>

Subject:      Great Novel (not american though)

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Try and read "L'Arrache-Couer" (don't know the title in english or even

if it has been translated, but should sound something like this 'The

Heart snatcher' or 'The Heart Puller' by Boris Vian.

 

I'd like to hear opinions about it...

 

See you,

daniel caridade

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:54:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

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Mike Rice wrote:

> The Gap's ad agency missed a lot of potential

> scenarios.  Perhaps its time to turn the idea over to Calvin Klein and

> see what he can do with it.

> 

> Mike Rice

 

J.D. Salinger could point the rifle at John Kennedy.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:02:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

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>>I've been thinking for some years now that its madness.

>>Everything you read in a newspaper is theatre of the

>>absurd.  We're post something these days.  Marching up

>>to the millenium without a clue. Its ridiculous, its

>>even somewhat fun.  I don't know what's going to happen.

>>I hate to say it, but its a great time to be alive.

> 

>     something to think about: was watching the national news tonight,

>the female reporter was smiling as she reported on the upcoming

>execution of a man this evening and a brand new execution chamber being

>built in the state that the execution is taking place in.  am i in the

>minority in being severely disturbed by this?

 

Was her name Mona Lisa?

 

But I agree there's much to be disturbed about with the America tv delivers

--  Roman collosium in every home.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:06:30 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Kerouac ads

 

Frankly, I enjoy the Kerouac ads and I think that they can only help

attract new readers to Kerouac's work.    Sure, it's somewhat ironic

that a writer who was basically anti-materialistic is being used by

Madison Avenue to sell things but life is funny sometimes.   If some of

those customers become readers and begin to question the values that

Madison Avenue promotes that's all to the good.  As far as the estate

making money on the deal, I hope they make a lot.  That way they may be

able to afford to sell the archives to a library at a price the library

can afford.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:16:46 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Beat fads, movie quotes, and flipper

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> Subject:

>         Re: Beat Fad

>   Date:

>         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:28:28 -0800

>   From:

>         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

> 

> 

> At 11:07 AM 11/18/97 MST/MDT, you wrote:

> >Date sent:      Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:37:45 -0500

> >Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> >From:           "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

> >Subject:        Beat Fad

> >To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> >

> >It's my theory that the 90's are a lot like the 50's- conservative,

> >security oriented, corporate, big government knows best- hence the

> >resonance beat literature is generating. It follows that the first

> >decade of the new millenium will be like the 60's all over again (only

> >more so this time). Anyone else thinking this way?

> >

> >Mark Hemenway

> >

> >absolutely: its inevitable:j.

> >

> >

> 

> Actually this is what they said in the 80's.  They said the 90's would be

> like the 60's.

> 

> Remember that movie Flashback with Dennis Hopper and Kiefer Suthurland?

> That was the catch phrase, something like: the 90's are going to make the

> 60's look like the 50's.

> 

> To me it's all hype and advertising all round.

> 

> "life is pretty cheap/it's sold a decade at a time" --Flipper (remember them?)

> 

 

 

 

It's spooky sometimes how you people can read my mind....

 

  As I was reading through the digest, about 5 messages ago I thought of

that quote from the movie 'flashback' and went and put the soundtrack in

the cd player.

 

 Now, Tim,you go and ask if anyone remembers Flipper.

COURSE I DO!!!!!!!!!!

Now, people, if you would, could we stop these weird mind control and

e.s.p. experiments?????

 

 

just joshin' you,

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:32:01 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      re; beat fad thang and a word from gen-x

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> Subject:

>         Re: Beat Fad

>   Date:

>         Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:49:09 -0800

>   From:

>         ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>

> 

> 

 I don't know how it happened, but

> there's something about this music that just makes sense.  It moves you in

> ways that Nirvana just can't.  Listen to "Love Me" by the Phantom and

> you'll see what I mean.

 

 

.... IMHO, the 90's are completely void of

> soul.  Is it any wonder that some people should look to the past for

> inspiration?  Granted, my life is somewhat of an extreme example, but what

> can I say?? Thrift shopping and garage sales are addicting. Real Rock and

> Roll is addicting.  Most of what popular American culture today has to

> offer couldn't get me up with a cannon and a drum.

> 

> Anne Sneddon

> 

 

AND NOW A WORD FROM A MEMBER OF GENERATION X:

 

 

point, counterpoint.  We could go on like this forever.

 

First the music thing:  it's entirely subjective.  what we listen to is

entirely our own choice, and different songs speak to different people

in different ways.  For example, i 'get moved' by both 'smells like teen

spirit" and 'loverman' by sarah vaughan.  the doors move me, as does

cracker.  traffic moves me, as does beck.  real rock and roll only lives

in everbody's hearts.  I cannot put anybody down for liking music that i

don't particulary care for, it's as if i would be stepping on their

entire system of beliefs.  One is not 'better' than the other in the

long run.  In 20-30 years my future children will be listening to

nirvana as i did the doors when i was in high school.  there's always

the thing of idolizing dead rock stars.  I do not solely look to the

past for inspiration, i do see great things ahead.  it's only the past

that gets us through to the future....

 

HOWEVER, for those who feel as if they were born in the wrong time

decade millenium etc etc  all i have to say is this:

 

in the cosmic huge scheme of things, if you were meant to be born then,

you would have been.  There's a purpose for your being here now.

 

and i must ramble on....

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:18:49 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

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shani:

thanks for the thoughtful post, which bridges the GAP <g> between the two

viewpoints,

mc

 

Shani St.John wrote:

 

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Diane Carter

> Sent:   Monday, November 17, 1997 2:47 PM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: Beat fad?

> 

> > Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> > yet

> > it is the death

> > the media flash in the pan

> > all over again.

> > first time out it killed jack

> > no one left to kill by lifestyle fame,

> 

> It wasn't fame or media hype that killed Jack, it was his own inability

> to find anything in life positive enough to live for.  And his sorrow and

> despair about the nature of human life was ingrained in his mind before

> On the Road was even published or he had any kind of popularity at all.

> Fame was at most an inconvenience, his attitudes about life were formed

> early on.

> DC

> 

> i agree with you for the most part.  But, he (much like N.C) couldn't deal

> with the expectations and pressure placed on him by the public.  The public's

> view of jack were and are manipulated by the media.  I don't think he knew how

> to reconcile his inner being with his public image . As a result, he began to

> "lose" himself.  Maybe that was his goal?! He no longer wanted to deal with

> life. Fame or media hype didn't kill him.  Rather, the inability to deal with

> it.  His upbringing is one reason for his inability.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:23:32 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

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> 

> 

>      something to think about: was watching the national news tonight,

> the female reporter was smiling as she reported on the upcoming

> execution of a man this evening and a brand new execution chamber being

> built in the state that the execution is taking place in.  am i in the

> minority in being severely disturbed by this?

 

 nope. all them smiling news readers (i refuse to dignify them with the

label of reporters) give me the creeps to begin with, and this caps it so

far in my book. also, i've noticed that the tv news shows are  advertising

for themselves these days ..."tune in tomorrow and learn something we

could have told you today, but then we'd have no hook to grap you

with...eeeeccchhhh

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:42:17 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

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Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >I've been thinking for some years now that its madness.

> >Everything you read in a newspaper is theatre of the

> >absurd.  We're post something these days.  Marching up

> >to the millenium without a clue. Its ridiculous, its

> >even somewhat fun.  I don't know what's going to happen.

> >I hate to say it, but its a great time to be alive.

> 

>      something to think about: was watching the national news tonight,

> 

> the female reporter was smiling as she reported on the upcoming

> execution of a man this evening and a brand new execution chamber

> being

> built in the state that the execution is taking place in.  am i in the

> 

> minority in being severely disturbed by this?

 

 

    The talking heads don't usually take the time to examine what

they're saying.  Those teleprompters sure do move fast.   I'm pretty

sure the reporter has that smile pasted on all the time.

    Last year,  here in Utah,  they happily reported on the first firing

squad execution in ages.  We got all the grisly details nightly for a

week.  A real feel-good story.

 

-E

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:55:01 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

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Hi Mike,

Do you remember back in '72, in Nat'l Lampoon magazine, a VW add (they

had the BEST print ads at the time) showing a floating VW with the

caption, "If only Ted had been driving a VW...."

sara

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:57:56 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

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You know, I personally don't have a problem with the crass superficial

bludgeoning of the TV mode.... It's called "freedom of speech"... The

problem lies with the way humans HANDLE what they are exposed to.  Now,

how do we fix THAT?

sara

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:00:30 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac ads

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Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> Frankly, I enjoy the Kerouac ads and I think that they can only help

> attract new readers to Kerouac's work.    Sure, it's somewhat ironic

> that a writer who was basically anti-materialistic is being used by

> Madison Avenue to sell things but life is funny sometimes.   If some

> of

> those customers become readers and begin to question the values that

> Madison Avenue promotes that's all to the good.  As far as the estate

> making money on the deal, I hope they make a lot.  That way they may

> be

> able to afford to sell the archives to a library at a price the

> library

> can afford.

 

    I agree.  I probably wouldn't have taken such an interest in the

Beats without little hints about them in the popular culture.  The

Beastie Boys have a lyric about ...reading On The Road by my man Jack

Kerouac,  poetry in motion ....  which undoubtedly perked my interest in

the book.   I certainly didn't get any direction from the high school

teachers and college professors.   If there weren't any images out

there,  they might eventually be forgotten.

    Sometimes an ad is just an ad.  I don't think Einstein's theories

have been cheapened by an image of him wearing khakis.  Maybe we should

feel honored that the Gap has decided to market pants to us.  After

all,  we wear pants too.

 

-E

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:51:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

 

Turn OFF yr fucking tee-vee, put down that slick stupid magazine and PICK UP

A BOOK, why don'tcha?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:18:07 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: re; beat fad thang and a word from gen-x

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> Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> 

> > in the cosmic huge scheme of things, if you were meant to be born then,

> > you would have been.  There's a purpose for your being here now.

 

> > cathy

 

> cathy are you sure of this? i always doubted this part of the whole

> cosmic thing.  I was walking along a beach with zippy the other day

> talking about how my body has been transported into a 50 year old fat

> womans body to help me adjust to the 90's time continuim.  so if you are

> sure i will transport back into the 32 year olds body, but i was pretty

> certain that this configuation was to help me write. gee.

> love

> p

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:29:44 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "j." <NIEL1000@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

 

Date sent:      Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:34:45 -0500

Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:           Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization:   University of Maine

Subject:        Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

>I've been thinking for some years now that its madness.

>Everything you read in a newspaper is theatre of the

>absurd.  We're post something these days.  Marching up

>to the millenium without a clue. Its ridiculous, its

>even somewhat fun.  I don't know what's going to happen.

>I hate to say it, but its a great time to be alive.

 

     something to think about: was watching the national news tonight,

the female reporter was smiling as she reported on the upcoming

execution of a man this evening and a brand new execution chamber being

built in the state that the execution is taking place in.  am i in the

minority in being severely disturbed by this?

 

 

please include me in this minority for i am utterly disgusted: though

the man may be getting what he deserves: pleasure should not be

derived from the deaths of anyone: what kind of a sick world is this

anyway?: j.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:39:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac ads

In-Reply-To:  <34731B2E.7F574211@ced.utah.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> After all,  we wear pants too.

 

Speak for yourself!

;-PPP

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:53:57 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      hello west coast beats

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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i am going to be on the west  coast, staying with leon from dec 17 or so

through jan 17.

all through the efforts of leon, (wave! hi leon!)

i will be reading at at least one event, the first thursday of jan 98

at the Polk Street Beans and Cafe !

leon is looking into other readings places as well.

i'm so excited!

california dreaming in VT

icy cold and snow already up here...

mc

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:37:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: utne

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711180141300177@classic.msn.com>

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i think he would have hated it in '68, but if he were alive today. . .who

knows?

jt

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:49:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711180205270983@classic.msn.com>

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On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Shani St.John wrote:

 

> What is at the root of the resurgence of interest in Beat culture and

> literature?

> Is it  just a fad?

> 

> 

> Shani

> 

it depends on the generation buying the books now.  if it's the gen-xers,

of which i am an early member, then i think it's the grunge/kurt cobain

?philosophy? that is compatible w/ beat thinking.  we seem to be an entire

generation of misfits with an axe to grind.  in these days of school

prayer vs. court cases featuring atheists we're looking for spiritual

awakening.  hence the "new age" phenomena.  instead of responding to the

A-bomb threat, and later reality, we're facing national terrorism.

instead of political activism, we're entrenched in political apathy.  so

it seems that we're returning or finding kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, et.

al for a resurrgence of lost values and insight in order to foster a new

creative era.  what will our generation of literature be deemed?  one can

only hope that the critics will not refer to it as x-lit, but as something

beat inspired with our generation's fresh perspective.

 

jenn

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:54:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

In-Reply-To:  <msg1242928.thr-587f7f30.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

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On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >What is at the root of the resurgence of interest in Beat culture and

> >literature?

> >Is it  just a fad?

> 

>      well... let me be the first to point out the obvious, and that's

> the deaths of allen and bill within the same year..  secondly, i think

> the beat doctrine validates the desired lifestyles of the young

> generation, especially in a time when government and societorial

> intrusion of privacy is at a high, and the go to school get a job get

> married have kids house in the suburbs 2 cars life insurance retirement

> hyseria is beaten into everyone's head on a daily basis.. it validates

> the wanderlust carelessness lack of definite direction of the young

> generation.. of which i am a part, so i don't wanna hear any whining

> about what do i know from all you whuppersnappers out there.

> 

yes, i agree that it is the mixed-value message all over again.  remember

Neal's dream of the picket fence; yet he longed for kicks at the same

time.   gen-xers face the same dilemma; we are supposed to take the

fast-track carreer life of the yuppies before us...or we can follow the

Martha Stewart neighbors who long for the old-time home life.  so it's the

old "to be or not to be" all over again.

jenn

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:24:02 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "j." <NIEL1000@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

 

Date sent:      Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:49:45 -0500

Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:           Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:        Re: Beat fad?

To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Shani St.John wrote:

 

> What is at the root of the resurgence of interest in Beat culture and

> literature?

> Is it  just a fad?

> 

> 

> Shani

> 

it depends on the generation buying the books now.  if it's the gen-xers,

of which i am an early member, then i think it's the grunge/kurt cobain

?philosophy? that is compatible w/ beat thinking.  we seem to be an entire

generation of misfits with an axe to grind.  in these days of school

prayer vs. court cases featuring atheists we're looking for spiritual

awakening.  hence the "new age" phenomena.  instead of responding to the

A-bomb threat, and later reality, we're facing national terrorism.

instead of political activism, we're entrenched in political apathy.  so

it seems that we're returning or finding kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, et.

al for a resurrgence of lost values and insight in order to foster a new

creative era.  what will our generation of literature be deemed?  one can

only hope that the critics will not refer to it as x-lit, but as something

beat inspired with our generation's fresh perspective.

 

jenn

 

    SO WHAT EXACTLY IS THE Literature of our generation?: j.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:36:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

In-Reply-To:  <150E59B1D0B@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, j. wrote:

 

> Date sent:      Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:49:45 -0500

> Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> From:           Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

> Subject:        Re: Beat fad?

> To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Shani St.John wrote:

> 

> > What is at the root of the resurgence of interest in Beat culture and

> > literature?

> > Is it  just a fad?

> >

> >

> > Shani

> >

> it depends on the generation buying the books now.  if it's the gen-xers,

> of which i am an early member, then i think it's the grunge/kurt cobain

> ?philosophy? that is compatible w/ beat thinking.  we seem to be an entire

> generation of misfits with an axe to grind.  in these days of school

> prayer vs. court cases featuring atheists we're looking for spiritual

> awakening.  hence the "new age" phenomena.  instead of responding to the

> A-bomb threat, and later reality, we're facing national terrorism.

> instead of political activism, we're entrenched in political apathy.  so

> it seems that we're returning or finding kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, et.

> al for a resurrgence of lost values and insight in order to foster a new

> creative era.  what will our generation of literature be deemed?  one can

> only hope that the critics will not refer to it as x-lit, but as something

> beat inspired with our generation's fresh perspective.

> 

> jenn

> 

>     SO WHAT EXACTLY IS THE Literature of our generation?: j.

> 

i was referring to future gen-x-authored literature.

jenn

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:47:43 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>> > What is at the root of the resurgence of interest in Beat culture and

>> > literature?

>> > Is it  just a fad?

 

For some reason we have overlooked one thing about this "fad".

 

The "Beat" writers wrote good books.

 

That is the main reason.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:45:07 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: the italian judge

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PCW.3.91.971118215414.12366C-100000@donahujl.bc.edu>

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At 22.08 18/11/97 -0800, jim donahue wrote:

>hey list,

>as much fun as ive been having reading, responding,

>and learning, there is just too much going on.

>but before i sign off again (inevitably to return, as

>before), i have a question.

>i teach a writing seminar, and i am restructuring my

>section on audience: intended vs. actual, implied vs.

>overt.  i am using kerouacs "letter to an italian

>judge" and the "subterraneans."  part of the

>assignment will involve what exactly kerouac could be

>responding to.  this is partly because i do not have a

>copy of the judges response.  if anyone out there

>knows where i might get a copy, i would appreciate it.

>i know i have asked this question before (for those

>who remember), but i thought id ask again before

>taking a break from the list.

>i can be responded to either through the list or at

>donahujl@moa.bc.edu

>thank youfor any help, guidance, or direction anyone

>may be able to provide.

>jim donahue

> 

jim,

i've noticed time ago yr request, and i cannot resist now

to give you some info (but i'm not sure if it's useful).

what i'm writing isn't any scholar notes but only some fragmented

(johnny mnemonic piece of memories d/loaded...)

 

the "The Subterraneans" was out in Usa in 1958 (Grove Press, NY)

Kerouac was helped by Joyce Johnson to publish the novel.

 

in italy the novel was out in november 1960 and the publisher

was Giangiacomo Feltrinelli, and translated by an ANONYMOUS.

 

Feltrinelli was an ultraleftist (friend to Che Guevara).

immediately the "Subterraneans" was charged for obscenity but

in the end the italian judge senteced that the novel wasn't

pornographic but artistic work.

 

the "Subterraneans" (I sotterranei, in italian) translated by

an anonymous italian translator indicates that the novel was

not square. Because "Giangiacomo Feltrinelli Editore Milano" has

head office in Milan (italy) may be you can get in touch with

Feltrinelli Editore (Giangiacomo died in a bomb explosion in 1972).

 

the Feltrinelli's lawyers of course have a dossier about the

lawsuit dated in 1960. you can also contact the "Procura Della

Repubblica Di Milano" in Milan (Italy) where every document of

any lawsuit is archived. Any sentence of the italian judge is here.

 

the "The Subterraneans" (I Sotterranei) was prefaced by Henry Miller

and introduction by Fernanda Pivano.

 

the march 97 the 21th edition has on the cover a painting by

Tom Wsselmann, Great American Nude#54, 1964., Neue Galerie,

Aachen, Germany, 1992.

 

i hope to help a little your research...

i miei migliori auguri per il tuo lavoro,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:13:51 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Peaches!

In-Reply-To:  <199711182005.PAA06764@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

prologue

characters: Harold Pinter, Luchino Visconti and Tennessee Williams.

 

Harold Pinter: free market!

                "YOU ARE FREE

                BE GRATEFUL

                EAT DOG SHIT

                DIE HAPPY"

Luchino Visconti: i love you!

Tennessee Williams: Ah, Luchino.

 

part one.

characters: Mademoiselle and T.S.Eliot

 

Mademoiselle: hello!

T.S.Eliot: do i dare to eat a peach?

Mademoiselle: don't count on Me, please.

 

 

part two.

characters: Joyce Johnson Glassman and Jack Kerouac.

 

Joyce Johnson Glassman: you are nothing but a big bag of wind.

Jack Kerouac: unrequired love's bore.

Joyce Johnson Glassman: Ah, Jack!

 

part three.

the cell phone is shaking in my pocket, man...

quick! soon, don't do it ring!

 

 

---

Rinaldo

19th nov 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:58:42 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Maybe I'm oversensitive, but if by " in these days of school

prayer vs. court cases featuring atheists we're looking for spiritual

awakening." you in any way imply that atheists are not spiritual, let me

correct you. I am an atheist, and I am VERY spiritual.  Spirit and

Supreme being do NOT go together like love and marriage.... or... DO

they? Hmmmmmmmm... maybe I've been ignorantly profound here......

sara

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:05:20 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: Peaches!

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Thank you, I ENJOYED that....."unrequired love's bore"....... heh heh...

The play's the message.

sara

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:53:24 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      re beat fad spiritual atheism

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 12:58 PM 11/19/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Maybe I'm oversensitive, but if by " in these days of school

>prayer vs. court cases featuring atheists we're looking for spiritual

>awakening." you in any way imply that atheists are not spiritual, let me

>correct you. I am an atheist, and I am VERY spiritual.  Spirit and

>Supreme being do NOT go together like love and marriage.... or... DO

>they? Hmmmmmmmm... maybe I've been ignorantly profound here......

>sara

> 

> 

 

This is kind of off the beaten path but still...

 

How can an atheist be spiritual?  I understand how spirit and the supreme

being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual do.

Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line with

atheism.

 

This does key into the semantics of "spirit" though.  I can see what you are

saying if spirit is not taken literally as in school spirit or the like.

The adjective that usually would correspond in this case though is spirited

rather than spiritual.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:20:31 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> At 12:58 PM 11/19/97 -0700, you wrote:

> >Maybe I'm oversensitive, but if by " in these days of school

> >prayer vs. court cases featuring atheists we're looking for spiritual

> >awakening." you in any way imply that atheists are not spiritual, let me

> >correct you. I am an atheist, and I am VERY spiritual.  Spirit and

> >Supreme being do NOT go together like love and marriage.... or... DO

> >they? Hmmmmmmmm... maybe I've been ignorantly profound here......

> >sara

> >

> >

> 

> This is kind of off the beaten path but still...

> 

> How can an atheist be spiritual?  I understand how spirit and the supreme

> being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual do.

> Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line with

> atheism.

> 

> This does key into the semantics of "spirit" though.  I can see what you are

> saying if spirit is not taken literally as in school spirit or the like.

> The adjective that usually would correspond in this case though is spirited

> rather than spiritual.

 

its a-theist

not anti or a spirt

just means not into theistic forms of spirituality.

 

praying to God (and my pet rock) we don't get another round of this

stuff!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:10:42 -0800

Reply-To:     "Nancy J. Peters" <nancyp@wenet.net>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Nancy J. Peters" <nancyp@WENET.NET>

Organization: CITY LIGHTS BOOKS

Subject:      City Lights Web Site

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Hello out there from City Lights Booksellers & Publishers!

 

Check out our website at www.citylights.com for all the Beat Generation,

Bukowski, and a lot more subject matter!

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:04:02 MST/MDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         spoodgy_the_sponge_licker <NIEL1000@BADGER.SNOW.EDU>

Subject:      re beat fad spiritual atheism

 

Date sent:      Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:53:24 -0800

Send reply to:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:           "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:        re beat fad spiritual atheism

To:             BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

At 12:58 PM 11/19/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Maybe I'm oversensitive, but if by " in these days of school

>prayer vs. court cases featuring atheists we're looking for spiritual

>awakening." you in any way imply that atheists are not spiritual, let me

>correct you. I am an atheist, and I am VERY spiritual.  Spirit and

>Supreme being do NOT go together like love and marriage.... or... DO

>they? Hmmmmmmmm... maybe I've been ignorantly profound here......

>sara

> 

> 

 

This is kind of off the beaten path but still...

 

How can an atheist be spiritual?  I understand how spirit and the supreme

being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual do.

Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line with

atheism.

 

This does key into the semantics of "spirit" though.  I can see what you are

saying if spirit is not taken literally as in school spirit or the like.

The adjective that usually would correspond in this case though is spirited

rather than spiritual.

 

 

this is on the beaten path:

 

you cannot base spirituality upon its dictionary definition: there is

a much deeper and profound connotation to spirit: some consider it

soul: very few christians i know have "spirit" or are "spiritual" yet

they base their entire lives upon belief in spiritual existence: its

something which is felt not necessarily something which is known: j.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:30:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Tyson Ouellette wrote:

<snip>

>    something to think about: was watching the national news tonight,

 

> the female reporter was smiling as she reported on the upcoming

> execution of a man this evening and a brand new execution chamber being

> built in the state that the execution is taking place in.  am i in the

> minority in being severely disturbed by this?

 

Bubbleheaded bleach blonde comes on at 5:00

Tell you bout  a plane crash with a gleam in her eye.

 

Give us dirty laundry.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:47:21 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: re; beat fad thang and a word from gen-x

Comments: To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@sunflower.com>

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> 

> > in the cosmic huge scheme of things, if you were meant to be born then,

> > you would have been.  There's a purpose for your being here now.

> >

> > and i must ramble on....

> >

> > cathy

> cathy are you sure of this? i always doubted this part of the whole

> cosmic thing.  I was walking along a beach with zippy the other day

> talking about how my body has been transported into a 50 year old fat

> womans body to help me adjust to the 90's time continuim.  so if you are

> sure i will transport back into the 32 year olds body, but i was pretty

> certain that this configuation was to help me write. gee.

> love

> p

 

 

 

 

Patricia:

 

wow, that must be scary when that sort of thing happens...

 

Seriously though, after reading all your posts, and especially the ones

dealing with William, I am convinced that you were born at the right

time....

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:50:45 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> Bubbleheaded bleach blonde comes on at 5:00

> Tell you bout  a plane crash with a gleam in her eye.

> 

> Give us dirty laundry.

> 

 

wonderfull couplet , bentz!i recall the 'dirty laundry' ref. deep in burnt

out synapses....

mc

 

> --

> 

> Peace,

> 

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:08:47 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: the italian judge

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19971119204507.00689554@pop.gpnet.it>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

rinaldo,

thank you for your help.  this is certainly going to

be helpful.  although i doubt i can get the info

anytime soon (i know what its like getting archival

stuff from overseas), i will certainly get it.  and i

appreciate your help, not just for my "lesson plans,"

but this will also hep me to more fully appreciate the

novel not just as a work of art but as a piece of

cultural stimulus.

its just too bad i dont study italian (but i have the

means to get it translated), because i will b studying

translation theory in the fall (in an MA program), and

this would certainly be a fertile ground for study.

(ill just have to keep it in mind...)

again, thank you.

jim donahue

 

On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> At 22.08 18/11/97 -0800, jim donahue wrote:

> >hey list,

> >as much fun as ive been having reading, responding,

> >and learning, there is just too much going on.

> >but before i sign off again (inevitably to return, as

> >before), i have a question.

> >i teach a writing seminar, and i am restructuring my

> >section on audience: intended vs. actual, implied vs.

> >overt.  i am using kerouacs "letter to an italian

> >judge" and the "subterraneans."  part of the

> >assignment will involve what exactly kerouac could be

> >responding to.  this is partly because i do not have a

> >copy of the judges response.  if anyone out there

> >knows where i might get a copy, i would appreciate it.

> >i know i have asked this question before (for those

> >who remember), but i thought id ask again before

> >taking a break from the list.

> >i can be responded to either through the list or at

> >donahujl@moa.bc.edu

> >thank youfor any help, guidance, or direction anyone

> >may be able to provide.

> >jim donahue

> >

> jim,

> i've noticed time ago yr request, and i cannot resist now

> to give you some info (but i'm not sure if it's useful).

> what i'm writing isn't any scholar notes but only some fragmented

> (johnny mnemonic piece of memories d/loaded...)

> 

> the "The Subterraneans" was out in Usa in 1958 (Grove Press, NY)

> Kerouac was helped by Joyce Johnson to publish the novel.

> 

> in italy the novel was out in november 1960 and the publisher

> was Giangiacomo Feltrinelli, and translated by an ANONYMOUS.

> 

> Feltrinelli was an ultraleftist (friend to Che Guevara).

> immediately the "Subterraneans" was charged for obscenity but

> in the end the italian judge senteced that the novel wasn't

> pornographic but artistic work.

> 

> the "Subterraneans" (I sotterranei, in italian) translated by

> an anonymous italian translator indicates that the novel was

> not square. Because "Giangiacomo Feltrinelli Editore Milano" has

> head office in Milan (italy) may be you can get in touch with

> Feltrinelli Editore (Giangiacomo died in a bomb explosion in 1972).

> 

> the Feltrinelli's lawyers of course have a dossier about the

> lawsuit dated in 1960. you can also contact the "Procura Della

> Repubblica Di Milano" in Milan (Italy) where every document of

> any lawsuit is archived. Any sentence of the italian judge is here.

> 

> the "The Subterraneans" (I Sotterranei) was prefaced by Henry Miller

> and introduction by Fernanda Pivano.

> 

> the march 97 the 21th edition has on the cover a painting by

> Tom Wsselmann, Great American Nude#54, 1964., Neue Galerie,

> Aachen, Germany, 1992.

> 

> i hope to help a little your research...

> i miei migliori auguri per il tuo lavoro,

> Rinaldo.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:32:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Yes, it was one of Don Hendley's (sp?) better jobs of writing.  The only one I

can think of that I like better was Boys of Summer.

 

I saw a Dead Head sticker on a Cadallic

A little voice inside my head said don't look back,

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> > Bubbleheaded bleach blonde comes on at 5:00

> > Tell you bout  a plane crash with a gleam in her eye.

> >

> > Give us dirty laundry.

> >

> 

> wonderfull couplet , bentz!i recall the 'dirty laundry' ref. deep in burnt

> out synapses....

> mc

> 

> > --

> >

> > Peace,

> >

> > Bentz

> > bocelts@scsn.net

> > http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:46:36 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

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At some point in August i referred to William S. Burroughs as the Bard

of the post-Hiroshima age.  But since then i have thought perhaps

post-Nagasaki bard is more fitting.  The horror of national ego in the

very idea of the darkside of the atomic age is probably a footnote with

regard to the blast at Hiroshima as the irrationality in choosing the

second bombing at Nagasaki is one of the most terrifying of terrors one

can fathom.  And born from this terror is a new literature from a

generation in permanent exile from living as the experience of life has

been imploded by scientists to the point of the invisible mechanical

elements completely absence of any feeling at all and its birth of the

inevitable creature of such thoughts a monster that explodes the visible

world from the sources of the invisible discoveries.  Such a darkness

sends an entire generation in exile from the sources of its connections

to the land and to the culture.

 

This exile is an attempt to regenerate perhaps from the moving away a

moving toward a new America divorced from these dark invisible forces --

a literature of the visions of the road, of the visions of the city

streets and sounds.  A regenerating beginning in the beaten and leading

to a new spirit of awakening -- a culture that goes behind the backdrop

of the Nagasakian impulse finding truth in everyday kicks, everyday

joys, everyday darknesses ---- in the art of living -- and art blinded

by the scientistic division of living into objects in a microscope or an

explosion.

 

This regenerative spirit can be traced in the highs of the Beat

Generation Literature, the point of exile can be found in explicit and

implicit references along the various roads and visions of the

literature and the lives of those affected to the bone by reading these

words.

 

And so where are we now?  40 years on the road of exile - and

regenerations upon regenerations falling upon one another as the exiled

from the exiled point towards other exiles and all are blinded from the

the regenerating hope that exile creates in the first instance.

 

We beat nostalgically for beatific and beaten memories -- we create our

own memories and paint graffiti over the memories of the regenerating

exiles that come before.  What are we looking for?  Will we find it in

nostalgia in rebellion from the rebels in dreams or in the latest book

of letters?

 

I don't know.  I really don't know.  I hope y'all do!!!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:07:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      links to Kerouac and beat websites

 

hello

 

The following is a webpage I put together that has websites related to

Kerouac and the beats. If you know of one I did not add, please let me know

<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/links.html">http://members.aol.com/

kerouaczin/links.html</A>

 

enjoy, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:05:52 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      The Irony of the Profane

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And so we sit at our computer keyboards and peck words to each other in

a year marking the third to the last of a millenium in a generation

labeled by the third to the last of the English Alphabet.

 

The identity of the Present is the third from the last and that is about

as common a root as the exiled seem to find in the few moments when the

exiled find time to stop playing king of the molehill over who is the

bestest of the exiled.  And not much in common does this Present find in

these last thirds -- these thirds of alphabets and of years.

 

The viruses of words and time have perhaps replaced the viruses of atoms

and chemicals --- but the standards of the profane in the society from

which the exiles are all separated remain fairly stable.  The irony of

this stability stabs to the heart of things some times.  That the living

within and embracing the culture of the post-Nagasaki impulse can

maintain the same senses of profanity in "dirty words" and "naughty

deeds" despite the huge alteration in the notion of profanity created by

the imploding and exploding of the atom baffles the mind at times.  But

what can one really do but laugh at the nonsense of it -- the cries

against television violence as a disaster in need of controls when the

culture crying out still embraces the elemental violence of fissionary

violence.

 

We must laugh and we must laugh in both brightness and darkness.

Sometimes it is a hysterical laughter at the senselessness one faces in

the decision of whether to read On the Road one more time or go outside

to scan the stars -- both activities either a quest for paths out of

senselessness or distractions momentary at best from the senselessness.

And either seems a great idea -- as long as we laugh, especially at

ourselves, but at the rest of the mysteries around us as well.

 

But these are just letters hitting a particular keyboard on a Wednesday

evening somewhere in the middle of America in the third to the last year

of the millenium.

 

<the typist walks to the bedroom and puts "Breakthrough in the Grey

Room" in the boombox laughing all the way>

 

happy thanksgiving thoughts,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:54:24 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

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Jeez, Nagasaki happened.... it's in the past... get over it, and get on

with it.  The future can only be progressive if you are willing to

progress... dwelling is romantic, but not progressive.  But maybe I'm an

old grumpy head...

sara

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:16:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

In-Reply-To:  <3473A660.2F5F@sisna.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Jeez, Nagasaki happened.... it's in the past... get over it, and get on

> with it.  The future can only be progressive if you are willing to

> progress... dwelling is romantic, but not progressive.  But maybe I'm an

> old grumpy head...

 

Progressive does not necessarily denote progress.  And as we all know,

progress does not necessarily mean good.  The guilt and responsibilty of

the deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki is on the head of every American.

The guilt and responsibility of everything that has occured out of those

terrible points belongs with every citizen of a country that calls itself

any sort of leader or player in the global cultural landscape.  They

cannot be forgotten.  Just as anyone who ignores suffering and injustice

because it happens somewhere else in the world carries with them a

responsibility  for and to the victims of the Holocaust.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 03:19:35 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac ads

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Eric Lytle

Sent:   Wednesday, November 19, 1997 12:00 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Kerouac ads

 

Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> Frankly, I enjoy the Kerouac ads and I think that they can only help

> attract new readers to Kerouac's work.    Sure, it's somewhat ironic

> that a writer who was basically anti-materialistic is being used by

> Madison Avenue to sell things but life is funny sometimes.   If some

> of

> those customers become readers and begin to question the values that

> Madison Avenue promotes that's all to the good.  As far as the estate

> making money on the deal, I hope they make a lot.  That way they may

> be

> able to afford to sell the archives to a library at a price the

> library

> can afford.

 

    I agree.  I probably wouldn't have taken such an interest in the

Beats without little hints about them in the popular culture.  The

Beastie Boys have a lyric about ...reading On The Road by my man Jack

Kerouac,  poetry in motion ....  which undoubtedly perked my interest in

the book.   I certainly didn't get any direction from the high school

teachers and college professors.   If there weren't any images out

there,  they might eventually be forgotten.

    Sometimes an ad is just an ad.  I don't think Einstein's theories

have been cheapened by an image of him wearing khakis.  Maybe we should

feel honored that the Gap has decided to market pants to us.  After

all,  we wear pants too.

 

-E

 

 

I feel that you bring up a very good point.  But, I think the line in the song

was kind of a tribute.  Whereas the feeling I get from the GAP ad is

different.  Their intent was not to make an artistic statement, or celebrate

Kerouac's life and work.  It was a coldcalculated attempt to hook certain

segments of the public into buying their clothes.  Their motivation was purely

and simply money.  They don't care that this contradicts everything Jack

believed in. They reduce his memory to a marketing strategy. I don't know,

maybe it will generate interest.  In fact it probably will.  But interest in

what?  Kerouac's art, or his status as "Beat King."

Sorry . . .I'm venting.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 03:39:14 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Jennifer Thompson

Sent:   Wednesday, November 19, 1997 1:49 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Beat fad?

 

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Shani St.John wrote:

 

> What is at the root of the resurgence of interest in Beat culture and

> literature?

> Is it  just a fad?

> 

> 

> Shani

> 

it depends on the generation buying the books now.  if it's the gen-xers,

of which i am an early member, then i think it's the grunge/kurt cobain

?philosophy? that is compatible w/ beat thinking.  we seem to be an entire

generation of misfits with an axe to grind.  in these days of school

prayer vs. court cases featuring atheists we're looking for spiritual

awakening.  hence the "new age" phenomena.  instead of responding to the

A-bomb threat, and later reality, we're facing national terrorism.

instead of political activism, we're entrenched in political apathy.  so

it seems that we're returning or finding kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, et.

al for a resurrgence of lost values and insight in order to foster a new

creative era.  what will our generation of literature be deemed?  one can

only hope that the critics will not refer to it as x-lit, but as something

beat inspired with our generation's fresh perspective.

 

jenn

 

 

Thanks for that.  I definitely agree with you.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:34:27 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      public executions and the media

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> Subject:

>         Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

>   Date:

>         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:42:17 -0800

>   From:

>         Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>

> 

 

> 

> 

>     The talking heads don't usually take the time to examine what

> they're saying.  Those teleprompters sure do move fast.   I'm pretty

> sure the reporter has that smile pasted on all the time.

>     Last year,  here in Utah,  they happily reported on the first firing

> squad execution in ages.  We got all the grisly details nightly for a

> week.  A real feel-good story.

> 

> -E

 

 

 

 

and because of things like that, that is why i, who graduated with a

b.a. in journalism, did not go into the media business...

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:50:51 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac ads

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 03:19 AM 11/20/97 UT, you wrote:

>----------

>From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Eric Lytle

>Sent:   Wednesday, November 19, 1997 12:00 PM

>To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:        Re: Kerouac ads

> 

 

>I feel that you bring up a very good point.  But, I think the line in the song

>was kind of a tribute.  Whereas the feeling I get from the GAP ad is

>different.  Their intent was not to make an artistic statement, or celebrate

>Kerouac's life and work.  It was a coldcalculated attempt to hook certain

>segments of the public into buying their clothes.  Their motivation was purely

>and simply money.  They don't care that this contradicts everything Jack

>believed in. They reduce his memory to a marketing strategy. I don't know,

>maybe it will generate interest.  In fact it probably will.  But interest in

>what?  Kerouac's art, or his status as "Beat King."

>Sorry . . .I'm venting.

> 

> 

> 

So here's the antidote ad, sneaked on the air by guerilla video

men tampering with big media's satellite feeds:

 

Both Kerouac  and Neal Cassady, clad in khakis for the Gap are

boosting a '49 mercury from a parking lot in Kansas city circa

1951.  Sal and Dean are pushing the car down a slight incline.

Dean dives in the driver's side to  hot wire it,

Sal silently steer-pushes the coupe from the lot.  The motor

coughs to life, the two beats flash smiles; Success! they

roar away. In the  fading dual exhaust smoke, an announcer

purrs:  "The Gap..., the difference between what's really

true and what they're trying to put over on us this time..!"

 

(Camera dollies up and out leaving THE GAP label full-screen)

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:39:15 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

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Alex,

 

I can follow you along in your concern to have a safer world. I do believe

with you that better solutions for the suffering and injustice anywhere in

the world will be found after more people become more concerned about it.

 

I think there is a big difference between being concerned and being

responsible. I don't think that people whose influence did not reach the

perpetrators of the holocaust are responsible for what was done to me there.

 

I know I can't speak for the vast majority of my family who did not survive

the holocaust, or even for others who like myself did survive it. I can tell

you that I cringe when I see fingers pointed at people who are not

responsible but are vulnerable to self recrimination. The world is too large

for me to reach everywhere. Yes I expect to ignore things that go on

anywhere else, if by else you mean places that are too far away from me to

know for sure what's going on there, let alone know what to do about it. I

don't have to look very far for that.

 

There are lots and lots of things that happen right in my community that are

beyond my ability to know or to influence. I am concerned about the

homelessness in my community, I don't feel responsible for it. I wish I

understood more clearly what I could do about it. To get approval or

condemnation from righteosly concerned fellow citizens is quite easy. It is

more difficult to actually know how to really ameliorate the suffering,

inspite of many well meaning concerned people who think I am responsible to

do what they think is right because they believe their theories are correct.

 

I know you only mean to nudge folks to not run away from pain that is not

reaching them (yet) in person; to take more responsibility for their

inaction as well as for their action. I can see that awareness of the

avoidable suffering everywhere is a positive force that will help in time.

 

I am not sure that feeling responsible for what is beyond my reach helps

anything. After I assume responsibility for what I can't change, I am closer

to feeling guilt, shame, impotent, all quite heavily loaded factors. Loaded

in the wrong direction.

leon

 

.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Wednesday, November 19, 1997 7:16 PM

Subject: Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

 

 

Just as anyone who ignores suffering and injustice

>because it happens somewhere else in the world carries with them a

>responsibility  for and to the victims of the Holocaust.

> 

>------------------

>Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

>kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:10:03 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac ads

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

bravo!

mc

 

Mike Rice wrote:

 

> So here's the antidote ad, sneaked on the air by guerilla video

> men tampering with big media's satellite feeds:

> 

> Both Kerouac  and Neal Cassady, clad in khakis for the Gap are

> boosting a '49 mercury from a parking lot in Kansas city circa

> 1951.  Sal and Dean are pushing the car down a slight incline.

> Dean dives in the driver's side to  hot wire it,

> Sal silently steer-pushes the coupe from the lot.  The motor

> coughs to life, the two beats flash smiles; Success! they

> roar away. In the  fading dual exhaust smoke, an announcer

> purrs:  "The Gap..., the difference between what's really

> true and what they're trying to put over on us this time..!"

> 

> (Camera dollies up and out leaving THE GAP label full-screen)

> 

> Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:19:09 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

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Sorry, I don't take responsibility for Nagasaki.  Assuming guilt from

the past is a christian theme, and I am an atheist.  I don't say forget

the past, but to burden oneself with a heavy load of undeserved guilt is

neurotic, not helpful.  Each person must make a decision as to how they

will live life, hopefully with enough knowledge of the past to make some

better choices.  We're only human.

sara

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:06:35 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

Comments: To: saras@sisna.com

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Sarah,

 

I am not sure what atheist beliefs really are. Do you know what's going on

in the beyond?

 

I am with you totally about  your rejecting undeserved guilt, or accepting

responsibility for powers that you don't have. I do question though when you

too  have an idea about what others must do.

 

When you tell me that I must make a decision, i say wait a moment, maybe I

don't have to do that at all. Does everyone live their lives according to

some decision they make about it? Do you really believe that?

 

Something inside me tells me to watch out whenever I am told what I must do.

 

leon

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Sara Straw <saras@sisna.com>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Thursday, November 20, 1997 6:20 AM

Subject: Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

 

 

>Sorry, I don't take responsibility for Nagasaki.  Assuming guilt from

>the past is a christian theme, and I am an atheist.  I don't say forget

>the past, but to burden oneself with a heavy load of undeserved guilt is

>neurotic, not helpful.  Each person must make a decision as to how they

>will live life, hopefully with enough knowledge of the past to make some

>better choices.  We're only human.

>sara

>.-

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:30:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac ads

 

Reply to message from lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM of         Thu, 20 Nov 1997

 03:19:35 UT

 

> 

>I feel that you bring up a very good point.  But, I think the line in the song

>was kind of a tribute.  Whereas the feeling I get from the GAP ad is

>different.  Their intent was not to make an artistic statement, or celebrate

>Kerouac's life and work.  It was a coldcalculated attempt to hook certain

>segments of the public into buying their clothes.  Their motivation was purely

>and simply money.  They don't care that this contradicts everything Jack

>believed in. They reduce his memory to a marketing strategy. I don't know,

>maybe it will generate interest.  In fact it probably will.  But interest in

>what?  Kerouac's art, or his status as "Beat King."

>Sorry . . .I'm venting.

 

But we see those adds with our beloved Kerouac, and even though their

origins may have been for money, _we_ see those adds in a different light.

And those of us who have saved a copy and have it hanging somewhere, well,

in a way we've turned that add into a tribute too, haven't we? So it can't

be all bad.

 

 

Diane.

 

--

"This is Beat.  Live your lives out?  Naw, _love_ your lives out!"

                                                        --Jack Kerouac

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:51:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

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saras@sisna.com,.Internet writes:

>You know, I personally don't have a problem with the crass superficial

>bludgeoning of the TV mode.... It's called "freedom of speech"... The

>problem lies with the way humans HANDLE what they are exposed to.  Now,

>how do we fix THAT?

 

     my problem isn't with the fact that it's being presented, but the

manner in which it is done and accepted; the fact that she was grinning

at the deliberate cessation of life.  makes me wonder what's happening

in our heads, is compassion dead?  you know, we don't live in a true

democracy despite what bullshit we're fed, we live in part democracy

part oligarchy, and we increasingly approach fascist doctrine in which

laws are imposed upon the individual spirit in total neglect of it for

an imagined betterment of the whole, which won't happen as long as

people are unhappy with being forced to live their lives in certain

ways.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:59:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Beat fad?

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For some reason we have overlooked one thing about this "fad".

>The "Beat" writers wrote good books.

>That is the main reason.

 

     i don't think it is, i mean i agree that they wrote god books, but

there are so many genres out there of wonderful lit, of which we caught

a glimpse in the great novel discussion.  while it is a key factor to

the posterity of any lit work, i don't think it's the main reason for

the resurgence..

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:53:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>also, i've noticed that the tv news shows are  advertising

>for themselves these days ..."tune in tomorrow and learn something we

>could have told you today, but then we'd have no hook to grap you

>with...eeeeccchhhh

 

      right, and the way they run ads featuring the reporters trying to

give them wholesome human elements, etc.. they try to sell these

people... it's become about the reporters and not what's being

reported.  it's presentation not content, and, despite my always saying

it's not what you write it's how you write it, that's no entirely true

in the realm of news, because it is the occurence that is important

primarily, not looking good in front of a camera.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:01:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Stephen Eickele Voss <svoss@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac Gap Ad

MIME-Version: 1.0

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In regard to all that's been said of Kerouac's image appearing in the gap

ad, I found this in an interview with Ginsberg:

 

Q. One more Kerouac question. There's a Gap ad with a picture of him

     that says, "Kerouac wore khakis." Any idea how he would have felt

     about that?

 

 I don't know if he would have liked it, really. He didn't sign up for

that, his family did. I signed up for one. I refused to for a long while,

but then I had a lightbulb in my head, and on the side of every ad it

says, "All monies from this ad go to the Jack Kerouac School of Poetics at

Naropa Institute." So that was a Buddhist way of turning waste to treasure.

 

It's from http://www.tvguide.com/tv/poetry/ginsberg.htm

 

-Steve Voss

www.beatcafe.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:14:49 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac ads

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>----------

>From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Eric Lytle

>Sent:   Wednesday, November 19, 1997 12:00 PM

>To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:        Re: Kerouac ads

> 

>Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

>> Frankly, I enjoy the Kerouac ads and I think that they can only help

>> attract new readers to Kerouac's work.    Sure, it's somewhat ironic

>> that a writer who was basically anti-materialistic is being used by

>> Madison Avenue to sell things but life is funny sometimes.   If some

>> of

>> those customers become readers and begin to question the values that

>> Madison Avenue promotes that's all to the good.  As far as the estate

>> making money on the deal, I hope they make a lot.  That way they may

>> be

>> able to afford to sell the archives to a library at a price the

>> library

>> can afford.

> 

>    I agree.  I probably wouldn't have taken such an interest in the

>Beats without little hints about them in the popular culture.  The

>Beastie Boys have a lyric about ...reading On The Road by my man Jack

>Kerouac,  poetry in motion ....  which undoubtedly perked my interest in

>the book.   I certainly didn't get any direction from the high school

>teachers and college professors.   If there weren't any images out

>there,  they might eventually be forgotten.

>    Sometimes an ad is just an ad.  I don't think Einstein's theories

>have been cheapened by an image of him wearing khakis.  Maybe we should

>feel honored that the Gap has decided to market pants to us.  After

>all,  we wear pants too.

> 

>-E

> 

> 

>I feel that you bring up a very good point.  But, I think the line in the song

>was kind of a tribute.  Whereas the feeling I get from the GAP ad is

>different.  Their intent was not to make an artistic statement, or celebrate

>Kerouac's life and work.  It was a coldcalculated attempt to hook certain

>segments of the public into buying their clothes.  Their motivation was purely

>and simply money.

 

 

Yeah, Paul's Boutique was a good recording.  I remember that line and

appreciated it.  I'd all ready been into to kerouac and it was good to

learn that there were kindred spirits.

 

And amazingly the beastie boys gave this record away as they didn;t want

people to feel hooked into buying it just so they could make money.

 

 

 

They don't care that this contradicts everything Jack

>believed in. They reduce his memory to a marketing strategy. I don't know,

>maybe it will generate interest.  In fact it probably will.  But interest in

>what?  Kerouac's art, or his status as "Beat King."

>Sorry . . .I'm venting.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:11:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

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>How can an atheist be spiritual?  I understand how spirit and the

>supreme

>being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual

>do.

>Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line

>with

>atheism.

 

     because all atheism states is the absence of a belief in a

godhead, period.  now, atheism is as much a trap as any other ism but i

won't get into that.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:09:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>Turn OFF yr fucking tee-vee, put down that slick stupid magazine and

>PICK UP

>A BOOK, why don'tcha?

 

     well, yeah, i guess i should just forget what's going on all

around me and submerse myself in books.  you know, that's what all the

great writers have done, ignore what's around them... that'd be healthy

for me.. we all know how jack never did anything or paid attention to

the grand situation around him, that he locked himself indoors all his

life and scorned any type of non-book media...  get real, man.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:15:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: re; beat fad thang and a word from gen-x

MIME-Version: 1.0

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cawilkie@comic.net,.Internet writes:

>First the music thing:  it's entirely subjective.  what we listen to is

>entirely our own choice, and different songs speak to different people

>in different ways.

 

     partly wrong.  an example: a friend of mine was in Mexico and

heard the Macarena way before t came out here.. and he got a copy of

the album and played it a lot when he was back here and all these

people who heard it asked what this crap was.  then it becomes hot as

hell.  and now it's collectively made fun of.  i think we have a

serious case of sheepness here; there are MANY people who listen to

what Rolling Stone and MTV tell them is cool.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:22:20 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Tyson,

It's a big world, bud, with lots of assholes in it.  Those on death row,

and those on Madison Avenue, and those living down the street.  Be

idealistic, but don't expect the world to come along... as long as there

are assholes in the world, they are gonna screw it up.  Not only that,

shit happens regardless of assholes.  Complaining about government has

only one logical conclusion... get in there and run for office!

SHOW us what you are talking about!

Go Tyson!

saraTyson Ouellette wrote:

> 

> saras@sisna.com,.Internet writes:

> >You know, I personally don't have a problem with the crass superficial

> >bludgeoning of the TV mode.... It's called "freedom of speech"... The

> >problem lies with the way humans HANDLE what they are exposed to.  Now,

> >how do we fix THAT?

> 

>      my problem isn't with the fact that it's being presented, but the

> manner in which it is done and accepted; the fact that she was grinning

> at the deliberate cessation of life.  makes me wonder what's happening

> in our heads, is compassion dead?  you know, we don't live in a true

> democracy despite what bullshit we're fed, we live in part democracy

> part oligarchy, and we increasingly approach fascist doctrine in which

> laws are imposed upon the individual spirit in total neglect of it for

> an imagined betterment of the whole, which won't happen as long as

> people are unhappy with being forced to live their lives in certain

> ways.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:43:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac Commemorative on Lowell Phone Book Cover

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Yes, our city phone directory for Lowell has a slapdash version of the Jack

Kerouac Commemorative on its cover which just came out for November 1997 to

October 1998. You've come a long way Jack! Paul of TKQ...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:24:56 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac ads

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>At 03:19 AM 11/20/97 UT, you wrote:

>>----------

>>From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Eric Lytle

>>Sent:   Wednesday, November 19, 1997 12:00 PM

>>To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>>Subject:        Re: Kerouac ads

>> 

> 

>>I feel that you bring up a very good point.  But, I think the line in the song

>>was kind of a tribute.  Whereas the feeling I get from the GAP ad is

>>different.  Their intent was not to make an artistic statement, or celebrate

>>Kerouac's life and work.  It was a coldcalculated attempt to hook certain

>>segments of the public into buying their clothes.  Their motivation was purely

>>and simply money.  They don't care that this contradicts everything Jack

>>believed in. They reduce his memory to a marketing strategy. I don't know,

>>maybe it will generate interest.  In fact it probably will.  But interest in

>>what?  Kerouac's art, or his status as "Beat King."

>>Sorry . . .I'm venting.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>So here's the antidote ad, sneaked on the air by guerilla video

>men tampering with big media's satellite feeds:

> 

>Both Kerouac  and Neal Cassady, clad in khakis for the Gap are

>boosting a '49 mercury from a parking lot in Kansas city circa

>1951.  Sal and Dean are pushing the car down a slight incline.

>Dean dives in the driver's side to  hot wire it,

>Sal silently steer-pushes the coupe from the lot.  The motor

>coughs to life, the two beats flash smiles; Success! they

>roar away. In the  fading dual exhaust smoke, an announcer

>purrs:  "The Gap..., the difference between what's really

>true and what they're trying to put over on us this time..!"

> 

>(Camera dollies up and out leaving THE GAP label full-screen)

> 

>Mike Rice

 

Re-read On the Road and Sal's feelings about Dean's Car stealing when they

were together and you might re-evaluate who is trying to "put one over over

time"

 

 

Personally I couldn't care less about the gap or these gap ads.  Who cares.

We don't own Jack kerouac anyhow so what is it to us.

 

I think the ads were nice because it was a good picture.  If someone wanted

a picture of kerouac they could have trimmed off the Gap part.

 

I also think kerouac would have done ads if he were alive.  Burroughs did

shoe ads.  Ginsberg did the Khaki ads and he was alive.

 

Nothing wrong with pants.

 

And Mike, I must add, nice mise en scene.  Led Zeppellin's when the levy

breaks should be the background muzak for this commercial.  It will be for

a Mercedes Benz.  Kerouac and cassady had such great taste that they wanted

to steal a Mercedres.

 

gesundheit.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:29:00 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I have a question.

 

Do you think these American attitudes (I'm referring to the anti-bombing

sentiment presented in this thread) about bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima

would be different if it was two German cities that were bombed?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:34:54 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>How can an atheist be spiritual?  I understand how spirit and the

>>supreme

>>being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual

>>do.

>>Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line

>>with

>>atheism.

> 

>     because all atheism states is the absence of a belief in a

>godhead, period.  now, atheism is as much a trap as any other ism but i

>won't get into that.

 

No. It would also disclude polytheism as well.

 

As I know it and lived atheism is a disbelief in any aspect of the

supernatural including a belief in spirit or souls or gods or God.

 

I believe this is the most common views and belief systems of atheists.

 

You are saying an animist can be atheist.  I don't agree at all in that one

cannot differentiate irrational beliefs in spirits or Gods.  All these

beliefs fall under an atheistic umbrella that holds the physical world is

all there is.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:42:29 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> I have a question.

> 

> Do you think these American attitudes (I'm referring to the anti-bombing

> sentiment presented in this thread) about bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima

> would be different if it was two German cities that were bombed?

 

well i guess i should come clean about my "attitudes" in this thread.  i

was sick to death of writer's block.  i'd tried some things and things

weren't working.  i had been re-arranging my books some and as i was

moving a book with an essay about Hiroshima by Norman Cousins i

remembered that Arthur (no longer on the list) had said he liked the

post-Hiroshima bard phrase so i just sat down and started punching keys

-- which is how i usually write/type things.  and that is what came

out.

i've been laughing at the thread and at myself because i had no

intention of the thread going this way at all.  i thought perhaps there

might be comments about Corso's bomb poem or some of Ginsberg's poems

along these lines or any number of WSB's writings and it got into this

whole guilt thing .....

 

which led me to the conclusion that my attempt to break out of writer's

block was a dismal failure!!!!

 

hope you're all having happy days.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:22:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

 

In a message dated 97-11-20 12:12:52 EST, Tyson wrote:

 

<<  we all know how jack never did anything or paid attention to

 the grand situation around him, that he locked himself indoors all his

 life and scorned any type of non-book media...  get real, man.

  >>

 

Get real? That's what I'm talking about. Inane discussions about television

commercials and how cool they are ain't my idea of reality. Not that I'd do

"what jack did," but if I did, I'd spend a lot of time exploring the inner

universe, as well as hitting the road, and I'd be writing about that stuff,

not being sucked into some dumb teevee commercial where kids are encouraged

to AFFECT hipness in order to get sugary treats. Teevee can rot your brain.

It can even make you so dull you fail to see the point of what a person is

saying... man.

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:58:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

In-Reply-To:  <msg1251041.thr-3ff78936.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>Permission to use Jack Kerouac in that GAP ad came from John Sampas, the

>>executor of the Keroauc Estate.

 

I could be wrong. Was reminded of the CA laws about rights to use images

that Nicosia posted some time ago. Sampas could have been by-passed by Jan

Kerouac.

 

Interesting how different I feel about the ads when thinking that his

daughter Jan may sold the rights rather than Sampas.

 

j grant

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:53:45 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      when god twirled the world into existence...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Sara Straw  says:

>Assuming guilt from the past is a christian theme, and I am an atheist.

>sara

> 

"The ways of the Lord lead to liberty" sayeth St. Paul...

        yet a man need liberty, not God, to be able to

        follow the ways of God" --- Gregory Corso

 

from ''ELEGIAC FEELINGS AMERICAN

        for the memory of John Kerouac''

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:43:13 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki Literature

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 22.16 19/11/97 -0500, Alex Howard wrote:

>Progressive does not necessarily denote progress.  And as we all know,

>progress does not necessarily mean good.  The guilt and responsibilty of

>the deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki is on the head of every American.

>The guilt and responsibility of everything that has occured out of those

>terrible points belongs with every citizen of a country that calls itself

>any sort of leader or player in the global cultural landscape.  They

>cannot be forgotten.  Just as anyone who ignores suffering and injustice

>because it happens somewhere else in the world carries with them a

>responsibility  for and to the victims of the Holocaust.

> 

>------------------

>Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

>kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

> 

 

Alex,

i think people in XX century goes crazy in a lot of countries,

first of all in italy, the place where fascism raise the flag

and making the atomic bomb was a lot of europeans.

 

Gregory Corso thinking

"You Bomb Toy of universe... I cannot hate you... all

man hates you they'd rather die by car-crash".

 

Gregory Corso is a pacifist and he wrote the poem "Bomb"

after the Trafalgar Square Meeting (London 1958).

 

The poet was impressed by the  people blinded with hatred

against the Bomb, he wrote the poem in Paris.

Allen Ginsberg cutted out the typewritten poem and

sticked them shaping as a mushroom cloud.

 

un caro saluto da

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:32:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>>How can an atheist be spiritual?  I understand how spirit and the

>>>supreme being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual

>>>do.  Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line

>>>with atheism.

>> 

>>     because all atheism states is the absence of a belief in a

>>godhead, period.  now, atheism is as much a trap as any other ism but i

>>won't get into that.

> 

>No. It would also disclude polytheism as well.

> 

>You are saying an animist can be atheist.  I don't agree at all in that one

>cannot differentiate irrational beliefs in spirits or Gods.  All these

>beliefs fall under an atheistic umbrella that holds the physical world is

>all there is.

 

        um, no.  you're misreading what was said.  "godhead" is a term

referring to divinity.  that can include multiple gods.

 

KEN

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:03:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>

Subject:      WSB

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"I am not one of those weak-spirited, sappy Americans who want to be liked

 by all the people around them. I don't care if people hate my guts, I assume

 most of them do. The important question is: 'What are they in a position to

 do about it?'"    -- William S. Burroughs

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:47:32 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac in advertisement

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Interesting how different I feel about the ads when thinking that his

>daughter Jan may sold the rights rather than Sampas.

> 

>j grant

>.-

Congratulations Joe! I really appreciate to hear this coming from you! It

helps us all to be more skeptical of  the conclusions advocated with

vehemence by opponnents in a heated controversy.

 

You didn't have to tell us that. But you did. That's helping us to sort

things out about the Estate issues as well. Thanks

 

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:01:48 -0500

Reply-To:     mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mongo BearWolf <mongo.bearwolf@DARTMOUTH.EDU>

Organization: Dartmouth College

Subject:      Student wishing help with research project

Comments: cc: "Sahra A. Carey" <s23blue@lightspeed.net>

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Hi Folks...

 

I'm forwarding this note from a correspondent.  Please reply directly to

Sahra (s23blue@lightspeed.net), not to me!  {:{)}

 

Thanks!

 

--Mongo

 

--------------------------------------------------------

                     ...visit...

 

                   ALLEN GINSBERG:

              Shadow Changes into Bone

 

       The Clearinghouse for all things Ginsberg!

 

                 http://www.ginzy.com

--------------------------------------------------------

 

 

----- FORWARDED MESSAGE FOLLOWS ------------

 

> Hey!  I am a student doing a major research

> project on the beats in San Francisco as

> part of the national history day competition.

> Ok, I am a little bit of a procrastinator

> and I need eight interviews from people about

> this subject.  I have four completed,

> some secondary sources and some primary

> sources of information.  I could really use

> some help.  I don't exactly know who you

> are at this moment because I just got to

> your site but I would appreciate it if you

> have any e-mail addresses of people I could

> interview for this over the net or perhaps

> you could answer some questions through

> your expert knowledge.  I only have a few:

> 

> 1)What was the primary appeal of SF for

> many beat writers and artists?

> 

> 2)What atmosphere was created there due

> to the influx of the beat culture?

> 

> 3)What, if any, major ideas came out of

> the large beat community in relation to their

> impact on today's society.

> 

> 4)From an economic stadnpoint, what

> situation were the new "migrants" in

> financially and what changes occured

> within the city during the time.

> 

> I understand if you can't answer these

> questions but any sort of blabbering will help

> me and I need a few more interviews even

> though the ones I already go are really

> strong.  Maybe you could pass this along to

> others as well and have them contact me:

> 

> s23blue@lightspeed.net

> 

> Sahra Carey

> Bakersfield, CA

> 

> Thanks for any of your help!

> 

> -sahra

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:10:37 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: when god twirled the world into existence...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Was your point that there is no point?

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:12:31 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Thank you, Ken.

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:13:57 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: WSB

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Ken, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, truth feels good, like a hot tub.

s.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:19:22 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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You have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.

I use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the

primary source of the meanings of words for the general populace.

s.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:25:01 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Voilla!

Its the cover not the book, it's what you look like, not what you are,

it's personality, not character.

Was it ever any different?

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:42:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac's Reading

Mime-Version: 1.0

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 While doing my research, I ran across this notebook entry of Kerouac's from

September 1951. This explains more of how Kerouac viewed himself as a writer.

He writes: "I'm going to be a Wolfean Proust, a Whitmanesque Dostoevsky, a

Melvillean Celine, a Faulknerian Genet - in fact a Kerouassadian Ginsbergian

Shakespeare."

  An irony is, that Ginsberg influenced Kerouac in his writing while

Ginsberg himself, at a round-table discussion at the Old Worthen in Lowell,

MA. on October 3rd, 1992, explained that he was very much an imitator of

Kerouac.

 

On another vein, but the same thread:

 

  A precise notation of Kerouac about Twain's story,  "Mysterious Stranger"

can in fact be connected to his sketches for Doctor Sax. He quotes in his

notebook, "Life is a dream...you are but a vagrant thought wandering

forlornly in shoreless eternities." A careful reading of Twain's story can

draw many parallels to Kerouac and his ideas for Doctor Sax. This

observation from February 1950 leads Kerouac to write, "Man haunts the

earth. Man is on a ledge noising his life." The idea that we are amidst

eternity, that it lives on within and without us parallels Mysterious

Stranger with K's ideas for early plans of On the Road and Doctor Sax.

 

  That's all for now! Don't forget to buy the first volume of Selected

Letters in hardcover from us!$10.00! They are brand new and will also come

with a free copy of The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. I, No. 2.

 

   See The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page!

    http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:50:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac GAP ad

MIME-Version: 1.0

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If anyone hasn't seen this ad and would like to, I have it on my site at

http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/images/kerouac/kerouac-gap.gif.  This

is what happens when you code the file for one name and forget to actually

change the name of the file afterwards.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:57:12 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac GAP ad

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Alex Howard wrote:

> 

> If anyone hasn't seen this ad and would like to, I have it on my site at

> http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/images/kerouac/kerouac-gap.gif.  This

> is what happens when you code the file for one name and forget to actually

> change the name of the file afterwards.

> 

> ------------------

> Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

> kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

> http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

 

Thanks Alex.  It was one of those ads where i would never have

remembered who was doing the advertising.  That happens to me all the

time.  I thought the image of Jack was pretty good.  Are there images of

the other nasty, naughty advertisements available out there anywhere?

After seeing this ad i can see how it could pull people into wondering

about Kerouac more than wandering into some store in some mall somewhere

in someplace sometime.  But what do i know about such important things

as Gap Ads and everything Jack stood for anyway -- afterall my

subconscious is still hungup on Nagasaki!!!! <still laughing at my

incompetent typing last night>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:38:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac GAP ad

In-Reply-To:  <3474CE58.5C3D@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> time.  I thought the image of Jack was pretty good.  Are there images of

> the other nasty, naughty advertisements available out there anywhere?

 

That's the only one I've seen though I can't remember where I got it.  If

The GAP has a site, they probably have them all unless they've been sued

by now.  Think its interesting that's the same picture as on the cover of

Joyce Johnson's _Minor Characters_.  Except in this one she's been

airbrushed out.  At the big Beat Conference in NY a few years ago, she

said that that was pretty metaphorical of the place of women in the group:

there when necessary, airbrushed out when not.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:03:51 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady ad.......formerly re:kerouac

              ads

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we

could somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see?  I think

the theme music, led zep, would be perfect!

 

 

 

cathy

 

 

 

> Subject:

>         Re: Kerouac ads

>   Date:

>         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:24:56 -0800

>   From:

>         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

> 

> 

> >At 03:19 AM 11/20/97 UT, you wrote:

> >>----------

> >>From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Eric Lytle

> >>Sent:   Wednesday, November 19, 1997 12:00 PM

> >>To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> >>Subject:        Re: Kerouac ads

> >>

> >

> >>I feel that you bring up a very good point.  But, I think the line in the

 song

> >>was kind of a tribute.  Whereas the feeling I get from the GAP ad is

> >>different.  Their intent was not to make an artistic statement, or celebrate

> >>Kerouac's life and work.  It was a coldcalculated attempt to hook certain

> >>segments of the public into buying their clothes.  Their motivation was

 purely

> >>and simply money.  They don't care that this contradicts everything Jack

> >>believed in. They reduce his memory to a marketing strategy. I don't know,

> >>maybe it will generate interest.  In fact it probably will.  But interest in

> >>what?  Kerouac's art, or his status as "Beat King."

> >>Sorry . . .I'm venting.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >So here's the antidote ad, sneaked on the air by guerilla video

> >men tampering with big media's satellite feeds:

> >

> >Both Kerouac  and Neal Cassady, clad in khakis for the Gap are

> >boosting a '49 mercury from a parking lot in Kansas city circa

> >1951.  Sal and Dean are pushing the car down a slight incline.

> >Dean dives in the driver's side to  hot wire it,

> >Sal silently steer-pushes the coupe from the lot.  The motor

> >coughs to life, the two beats flash smiles; Success! they

> >roar away. In the  fading dual exhaust smoke, an announcer

> >purrs:  "The Gap..., the difference between what's really

> >true and what they're trying to put over on us this time..!"

> >

> >(Camera dollies up and out leaving THE GAP label full-screen)

> >

> >Mike Rice

> 

> Re-read On the Road and Sal's feelings about Dean's Car stealing when they

> were together and you might re-evaluate who is trying to "put one over over

> time"

> 

> 

> Personally I couldn't care less about the gap or these gap ads.  Who cares.

> We don't own Jack kerouac anyhow so what is it to us.

> 

> I think the ads were nice because it was a good picture.  If someone wanted

> a picture of kerouac they could have trimmed off the Gap part.

> 

> I also think kerouac would have done ads if he were alive.  Burroughs did

> shoe ads.  Ginsberg did the Khaki ads and he was alive.

> 

> Nothing wrong with pants.

> 

> And Mike, I must add, nice mise en scene.  Led Zeppellin's when the levy

> breaks should be the background muzak for this commercial.  It will be for

> a Mercedes Benz.  Kerouac and cassady had such great taste that they wanted

> to steal a Mercedres.

> 

> gesundheit.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:44:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

saras@sisna.com,.Internet writes:

>You have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.

>I use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the

>primary source of the meanings of words for the general populace.

 

     thank you! i didn't want to say it for fear of a stupid discussion

about semantics, but semantics is one of the most important aspects of

language, otherwise no one knows what anyone else is talking about.  it

doesn't matter what the common conception is, it can be wrong, atheism

is specifically godhead relative, mono or poly, what this common view

is that has been described is not atheistic but aspiritual.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:04:21 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> 

> saras@sisna.com,.Internet writes:

> >You have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.

> >I use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the

> >primary source of the meanings of words for the general populace.

> 

>      thank you! i didn't want to say it for fear of a stupid discussion

> about semantics, but semantics is one of the most important aspects of

> language, otherwise no one knows what anyone else is talking about.  it

> doesn't matter what the common conception is, it can be wrong, atheism

> is specifically godhead relative, mono or poly, what this common view

> is that has been described is not atheistic but aspiritual.

 

thank god someone has said this, the atheism i believe in is a good kind

spiritual atheism.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:07:08 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

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thankyou for your thankyou.

My big ole' dictionary sits right here beside me, cause, frankly,

communication is important to me, and I like to have *resources*...

People who make up their own definitions are either fools or geniuses,

and I am neither.

I USED to think I was pretty smart, until I got on the internet and

found out, NOPE, I just live in an area filled with double digit IQers.

Oh well.

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:14:42 -0600

Reply-To:     vorys@concentric.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap ad.

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Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched? The Neon

appears to imply GAP rather than BAR. In which case the idea of Kerouac

hanging out at a clothing store becomes ridiculous.IMHO

  Overall if the ad gets someone to read Kerouac who ordinarily

wouldn't, I fail to see the harm. For those who are offended ... don't

but the product.

  I vaguely remember Kerouac writing something about Arrow shirts. Am I

off on this or does someone else know of the source?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:41:58 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Sara Straw wrote:

> 

> thankyou for your thankyou.

> My big ole' dictionary sits right here beside me, cause, frankly,

> communication is important to me, and I like to have *resources*...

> People who make up their own definitions are either fools or geniuses,

> and I am neither.

> I USED to think I was pretty smart, until I got on the internet and

> found out, NOPE, I just live in an area filled with double digit IQers.

> Oh well.

> s

 

I collect dictionaries -- but i've been known to make up my own

definitions and even make up new words for fun and symbolic frolicking.

 

A fine line and balance of not letting my dictionaries own my language

and yet not flashing so far from the denotation (a real lie of a word)

that communicating is impossible.

 

Just bought every Xmas tape in town (almost) festivity will be burned

into my walls whether i or my walls like it or not.  Right now James

Brown's Xmas music.  HEY AMERICA ITS Xmastime!

 

Ooops.  Gotta do that Turkey thing first.  Thanksgiving Prayer by WSB on

"Dead City Radio" is all that is really necessary for that holiday.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:38:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

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>It's a big world, bud, with lots of assholes in it.  Those on death row,

>and those on Madison Avenue, and those living down the street.  Be

>idealistic, but don't expect the world to come along... as long as there

>are assholes in the world, they are gonna screw it up.  Not only that,

>shit happens regardless of assholes.  Complaining about government has

>only one logical conclusion... get in there and run for office!

>SHOW us what you are talking about!

 

     mmm.. i cringe at being called idealistic cause i like to think

i've left it behind.. it's not so much idealism i don;t think, as some

basic instinctual value placed on life.  regardless of morals, ethics,

or other societorial imposed norms.  i could never run for office

though, ack, politics bores me to no end.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:13:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Grismore <ggrismor@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

In-Reply-To:  <msg1259755.thr-68b654d4.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

>my problem isn't with the fact that it's being presented, but the

>manner in which it is done and accepted; the fact that she was grinning

>at the deliberate cessation of life.  makes me wonder what's happening

>in our heads, is compassion dead?

 

Compassion is as alive as it's ever been, though that's not saying much.

Public executions have been forms of mass entertainment for hundreds of

years:

  *The last public guillotining (sp?) in France occurred  on

June 17, 1939, witnessed by a noisy, determined mob at street-level, as

well as a group of higher-class clientelle who had rented every possible

window/balcony/vantage point at premium prices.  The crowd cheered at 4:50

am when the head dropped and graphic photos soon graced the front cover

of almost every French newspaper.

  *The last public execution in the USA reportedly occurred in Owensboro, KY

in 1936.  This was witnessed by a crowd of 20,000, many of whom had

attended all-night 'hanging parties' to prime themselves for the 5:12 am

hanging.  A cheer was raised at the falling of the bolt, and soon the

still-warm body was mobbed by a throng of souvenir-hunters ripping and

tearing at clothing, flesh, and hair.  Two doctors were finally able to

make an examination upon the body - their report of heartbeats eliciting a

groan throughout the crowd, until a pronouncal of death was finally

declared at 5:45.

 

What's my point - Hell, I don't know.  I guess only that we are going in

the right direction. We are not there yet, and some dizzy bimbo on TV

feeding us murder with a smile, is a disturbing reminder of that, but

closing our eyes to the past and the progress that has been made is not

going to help.  What is? Again, I don't know. Here are some ideas: Join

amnesty international, vote Libertarian, write a letter to the editor...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:50:30 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to

any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for

consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.

and i have a bit of an empty head right now,

but (armorplated glass house)

i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class

or philosophy 101

does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?

winner gets sound of one hand clapping.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:54:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady ad.......formerly

              re:kerouac ads

Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net

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>Hey guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we

>could somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see?  I think

>the theme music, led zep, would be perfect!

 

     LED ZEPPELIN!!  alright, a fellow fan... interestingly enough,

Robert Plant has a pretty wanderlust beat attitude...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:55:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class

>or philosophy 101

>does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?

>winner gets sound of one hand clapping.

 

     i empathize with you, but it's all relative... one way or another.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:45:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>

Subject:      Atheism -- Agnostic

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I once, paradoxically, put my faith in atheism.  This was intertwined with a

view that spirituality was religion, that religion's only honorable purpose

was to explain the unexplainable, and that the majority of answers that

religion gave - If God created man, who created God? - simply removed the

question one step.

 

As the years past, my distrust of organized religion did not diminish, but a

feeling of being attached to something bigger grew.  My first definable

spiritual experience did not occur in a church or mosque or temple but

cross-country skiing, in Northern Quebec, through the ancient hills of the

Laurentians.  I was alone in the blue sky-ed, thirty below wilderness, high

on exertion.  The crisp sun peering through the leafless maples, dancing on

the fresh trackless snow, the world silent save for the sounds of the trees

creaking and my own panting.  And then, it shifted.  I was no longer a lone

skier in nature but a small part of nature.  I felt connected, not only to

the natural beauty surrounding me, but to my known & unknown ancestors, my

descendants to come, to everything and everyone.  I was a part of this big

rolling ball of life and it felt good.  There was no past, no future, there

was only the moment, the greater we, that always was and would continue to

be.  In bliss I floated, not seeing angels or Gods, but simply being.  I

slid out of this heightened awareness cold, miles from the cabin, serene and

forever changed.

 

This short glimpse made me put away my proudly worn label of atheism.  I

still see no need for a supreme power, or for the fatalistic answers

he/she/it may give.  I am not the center or end point but a mere speck in

the continuum.  I like the term agnostic -- self defined as a disbelief in

organized religion but a consciousness of something bigger.  Being spiritual

is being connected, the touchstone of acceptance & contentment. It is not me

vs you or man vs nature, for on a higher level, we are all one.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:42:39 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      A little too much of the Dharma

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'A wellknown truth in every private heart

in this long night of life:

A big defecation leaves nothing to be wiped,

A small one, there's no wiping it.

 This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)

 

It seems Jack had a bit too much time on his hands in early '55...

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:08:38 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

 

yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

thread in ages.... *yawn*

 

ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marie Countryman

Sent:   Friday, November 21, 1997 4:50 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        is this still beat-l?

 

first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to

any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for

consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.

and i have a bit of an empty head right now,

but (armorplated glass house)

i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class

or philosophy 101

does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?

winner gets sound of one hand clapping.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:16:47 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      beats and atheism

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  I don't think it's possible to say that the Beats really promoted

atheism or caused atheism in anyone. Rather, they took what they liked

of other religions and mixed them all together. Beat Literature was

religion to a lot of people, part Buddhism, part jazz, part LSD.  The

Beats both celebrated and closely examined life. Ginsberg, Kerouac,

Burroughs and all the others each had their own personal problems, but

when they wrote, they were unified. That is a very beautiful thing

that cannot be regarded as anything less than spiritual.

                              Maggie G.

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:03:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

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     to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to

simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any

particular religion.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:06:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Rbt. Johnson etching

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971118091419.24600A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Derek,

Check sent to pay for print was returned because of Postal strike in

Canado. E-mail me when the strike is over.

 

j grant

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:12:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>

Subject:      Big Sur

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711211909340216@classic.msn.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:

>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

>thread in ages.... *yawn*

 

 

I reread Big Sur while  on my California pilgrimage in September.  I also

drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look

around for a while.  I stood on the rocks and read  "Sea" - listening to

the waves crash in.  Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

 

 

....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...

No human words bespeak

the token sorrow older

than old this wave....

 

    Excerpt from "Sea"

    JK - Big Sur

 

 

Judith

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:34:32 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

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Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!

You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new

topic should initiate it.

s.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:37:52 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

MIME-Version: 1.0

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That's REAL nice, but I think you need to use your dictionary to

undersand the actual MEANING of belief and faith.

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:53:49 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

In-Reply-To:  <msg1267209.thr-2a817531.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

>      to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to

> simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any

> particular religion.

 

"Agnostic" means that you believe it's not possible to *know* whether or

not God exists--and since it is not possible to know this, you must keep

open the *possibility* that He does, as well as the *possibility* that He

does not.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:06:06 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur/vanity of duluoz

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i'll be following you shortly, judith, will be on the west coast next month.

(taking big sur out of bookcase as i type. additionally , i'd be interested in

reading/discussing vanity of duluoz: first time reading many years ago, too

young, i believe myself to have been to read through the rawness to the core.

i've attended beat seminars in which most hotly debated work has been the

duluoz, would be very interestd in having a reading and discussio of this

work.

thanks for giving my brain a jolt of energetic thought.

mc

 

 

Judith Campbell wrote:

 

> At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:

> >yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

> >thread in ages.... *yawn*

> 

> I reread Big Sur while  on my California pilgrimage in September.  I also

> drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look

> around for a while.  I stood on the rocks and read  "Sea" - listening to

> the waves crash in.  Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

> struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

> 

> ....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...

> No human words bespeak

> the token sorrow older

> than old this wave....

> 

>     Excerpt from "Sea"

>     JK - Big Sur

> 

> Judith

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:24:21 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Judith Campbell wrote:

> 

> At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:

> >yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

> >thread in ages.... *yawn*

> 

> I reread Big Sur while  on my California pilgrimage in September.  I also

> drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look

> around for a while.  I stood on the rocks and read  "Sea" - listening to

> the waves crash in.  Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

> struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

> 

> ....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...

> No human words bespeak

> the token sorrow older

> than old this wave....

> 

>     Excerpt from "Sea"

>     JK - Big Sur

> 

> Judith

 

I'm up for something different.  Big Sur was on my Xmas want list but i

may buy it in Denver at Tattered Cover and send Santa a revised list.

(I haven't been a particularly good boy anyway).

 

I found the idea of a novel length suicide note a very intriguing way of

looking at Big Sur -- at least figuratively if not literally.  This

impression seems to go a step further than what i've heard from others

concerning the novel -- and perhaps it is a step worth looking at

closely in reading Big Sur.

 

to kill some time this afternoon i did a bit of searching about Big

Sur.  Here is something of what I found......

 

Just for some background, I did a metacrawler search

<http://www.metacrawler.com/index.html> of Kerouac "Big Sur" and found

some information which some may find useful.  I'm fairly certain that

others will have many more sites to augment this list.

 

As one might expect, Levi Asher has a nice commentary on the novel "Big

Sur" at: <http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Books/BigSurBook.html> as well

as a nice page on Beat Places discussing Big Sur at:

<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Places/BigSurPlace.html>

 

Also, in the Kerouac section of the John Cassady interview, JC talks

briefly about Kerouac at LF's cabin.

<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/JCI/JCI-Two.html>

In addition, various pages pop up with more than a passing reference as

in the following: <http://www.kerouac.com/kerouac/bigsur.html> --

Amazon.com includes links to write reviews of the book to be

incorporated into their site

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0140168125/gloriagbrameA/0070-7114361-

 694721>

 

like i said, this is nowhere near a compleat list.  just some tidbits i

found trying to weed out the most passing references in general JK pages

on my search.

 

i imagine others will have access to reviews and other places to dig.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:31:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady ad.......formerly

              re:kerouac ads

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>Hey guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we

>>could somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see?  I think

>>the theme music, led zep, would be perfect!

> 

>     LED ZEPPELIN!!  alright, a fellow fan... interestingly enough,

>Robert Plant has a pretty wanderlust beat attitude...

 

I gotta say you folks got taste.  Spent last night jammin' on Led Zep tunes

with new buddies.  Our singer had his eye-lights put out in Vietnam, is a

counselor and writes books about how to have healthy relationships, and he

sounds like Robert Plant. And Now Zeppelin on the list.  Too much damn fun!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:42:22 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      opening chapter of duluoz

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All right, wifey, maybe i'm a big pain in the you-know-what,but after

I've given you a recitation of the troubles I had to go through to make

good in America between 1935 and more or less now, 1967, and although I

also know everybody in the world's had his own troubles, you'll

understand that my particular form of anguish came from being too

sensitive to all the lunkheads I had to deal with just so I could get to

be a high school football star, a college student pouring coffee and

washing dishes and scrimmaging till dark and reading Homer's _Illiad_ in

three days all at the same time and God help me, a WRITER whose very

'success,' far from being the a happy triumph as in old, was the sign of

doom Himself. (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use

regular punctuation for the new illiterate generation).

Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says, but in the past thirty years

to such an extent that I don't recognize them as people any more or

recognize myself as a real member of something called the human race. I

can remember in 1935 when fulgrown men, hands deep in jacket pockets,

used to go whistling down the street unnoticed by anybody and noticing

no one themselves. And walking fast, too, to work or store or

girlfriend. Nowadays, tell me, what is this slouching stroll people

have? Is it because they're used to walking across parking lots only?

Has the automobile filled them with such vanity that they walk like a

bunch of lounging hoodlums to no destination in particular?

_______

a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat

generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of

freedom.

also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did

not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature

in the sentence

"And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."

_____

my hats in the ring, gents and women, shall we venture further into this

territory?

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:46:52 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      netiquette

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i would like furthermore to comment on the vast number of one sentence

zingers and arguments that refer to unknown posts, other then those

partaking in the argument, fill and clutter mail box, and because there

is a limit of number of posts per day (is that still right, bill?)

clutter mailboxes. really, please take it off list.

thankyou

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:55:01 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      big sur/research

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dave: wonderful list of resources. i'm going to be out of computer range

for a day or two, but will be hightailing it into the web as soon as i'm

back (while gone, i hope to finish reading duluoz and have that as an

overview. i had always thought of duluoz as the novel as a suicide note

of jack's spirit, it looks to be an interesting project.

thanks.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:27:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      New Kerouac Bio

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The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page has been updated again today! Always more

news on Jack...

 

  For those who haven't yet gotten Vol. I, No. 2, they are selling out

quick. E-mail me first for availability. It looks like Vol. II, No. 1 will

be available after the first of the next year. Lots of good stuff once more.

 

Still some copies of Selected Letters Volume I left, all hardcover firsts

fresh out of the box from Viking, plus a free complimentary copy of The

Kerouac Quarterly!

 

Also, news on a new bio coming out in June...go to:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

                                   Thanks folks!

                                 Paul of TKQ!!

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:07:09 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

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Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> re: suggesting new topics, sara, i guess you are new here, as i have

> offered up many a topic in the past to get the list moving back on

> topic,

> which is the reading and discussion of the writings of the beats.

>  just giving other folk time to reflect over the past month and choose

> 

> something to read. judith has offered up a novel and so have i. read

> either of them? interested in reading them for what is in the text and

> 

> discussing them?  and i'm sure there are many list-servs which have

> what

> you are looking for philosophy-wise, or do what many members of this

> list

> do when  topic strays into special interest off topics: cc: one

> another

> and discuss. this has been done often, most recently the folks who

> read

> Ulysseus did so off list, making both them and others happy. i for one

> 

> would like you to stay here and read with us.

> mc

> 

> Sara Straw wrote:

> 

> > Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!

> > You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a

> new

> > topic should initiate it.

> > s.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:20:17 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 03:12 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

>At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:

>>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

>>thread in ages.... *yawn*

> 

> 

>I reread Big Sur while  on my California pilgrimage in September.  I also

>drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look

>around for a while.  I stood on the rocks and read  "Sea" - listening to

>the waves crash in.  Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

>heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

>alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

>struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

> 

> 

>....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...

>No human words bespeak

>the token sorrow older

>than old this wave....

> 

>    Excerpt from "Sea"

>    JK - Big Sur

> 

> 

>Judith

> 

> 

 

I haven't read Big Sur in a long time.

 

Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the

Deep Sea Say? with the chorus

 

What did the deep sea say?

What did the deep sea say?

It moaned and it groaned

and it splashed and it foamed

and it rolled on its' weary way

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:16:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)

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Gary Grismore cited the following:

 

> Public executions have been forms of mass entertainment for hundreds of

> years:

>   *The last public guillotining (sp?) in France occurred  on

> June 17, 1939, witnessed by a noisy, determined mob at street-level, as

> well as a group of higher-class clientele who had rented every possible

> window/balcony/vantage point at premium prices.  The crowd cheered at

4:50

> am when the head dropped and graphic photos soon graced the front cover

> of almost every French newspaper.

>   *The last public execution in the USA reportedly occurred in Owensboro,

KY

> in 1936.  This was witnessed by a crowd of 20,000, many of whom had

> attended all-night 'hanging parties' to prime themselves for the 5:12 am

> hanging.  A cheer was raised at the falling of the bolt, and soon the

> still-warm body was mobbed by a throng of souvenir-hunters ripping and

> tearing at clothing, flesh, and hair.  Two doctors were finally able to

> make an examination upon the body - their report of heartbeats eliciting

a

> groan throughout the crowd, until a pronouncal of death was finally

> declared at 5:45.

 

In my home state (Wisconsin) there has only been one official execution,

over 100 years ago.  The reaction of the mob was so appalling (similar to

that described above) that capital punishment was legally abolished here,

and so far remains so.  Although there are those who would like to roll

back civilization once again...

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:35:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

Comments: To: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <msg1259953.thr-63eeecba.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >How can an atheist be spiritual?  I understand how spirit and the

> >supreme

> >being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual

> >do.

> >Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line

> >with

> >atheism.

> 

>      because all atheism states is the absence of a belief in a

> godhead, period.  now, atheism is as much a trap as any other ism but i

> won't get into that.

> 

As Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:59:48 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      Ginsberg memorial

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

  I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg

memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the

general public? If so, will it be a free event?

  I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed

themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a

remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever

put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,

alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've

worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've

learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote

'Howl' back in the 60's."

  He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will

continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my

life for all of my days.

                           Maggie G.

Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:17:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap ad.

In-Reply-To:  <3475B372.1E47@concentric.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched?

 

It has been _very_ retouched.  Joyce Johnson is supposed to be standing

right behind him leaning against the wall.  I don't think the leg of the R

was visible in the original but I don't have it in front of me to check.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:27:16 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Gap ad.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:17 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

>> Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched?

> 

>It has been _very_ retouched.  Joyce Johnson is supposed to be standing

>right behind him leaning against the wall.  I don't think the leg of the R

>was visible in the original but I don't have it in front of me to check.

> 

>------------------

>Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

>kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

> 

> 

 

I seem to also remember having seen it in color.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:12:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

 

In a message dated 97-11-21 16:48:19 EST, judith wrote:

 

<< Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

 heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

 alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

 struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

 

  >>

I couldn't agree with you more, Judith. I read Big Sur again last summer and

felt the same way, only I never got around to putting it in these words,

which are perfect, disturbing and true.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:35:15 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: A little too much of the Dharma

 

In a message dated 97-11-21 14:55:17 EST, Adrien wrote:

 

<< This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)

  >>

 

Jack thought a lot about the toilet, you know, not just in 1955 but on and

on. In BIG SUR elements of the ritual of shitting become real issues for him,

and I quote:

 

"The President of the United States, the big ministers of state, the great

bishops and shmishops and big shots everywhere, down to the lowest factory

worker with all his fierce pride, movie stars, executives and great engineers

and presidents of law firms with silk shirts and neckties and great expensive

traveling cases in which they place these various expensive English imported

hair brushes and shaving gear and pomades and perfumes are all walking around

with dirty azzoles! All you gotta do is simply wash yourself with soap and

water! it hasnt occurred to anybody in America at all! it's one of the

funniest things I've ever heard of! dont you think it's marvelous that we're

being called filthy unwashed beatnikes but we're the only ones walking around

with clean azzoles?" [sic all punctuation/capitalization]

 

In only slight contrast, perfectly appropriate to a Zen master, Lin-Chi says:

 

"In Buddhism there is no place for using effort. Just be ordinary and nothing

special. Eat your food, move your bowels, pass water, and when you're tired

go and lie down again. The ignorant will laugh at me, but the wise will

understand.

 

 

I always am reminded how deep was Jack's search (no pun) for spirituality

when I read the many, many things he wrote about the care and feeding of his

body while obeying his equally strong compulsion for self-destruction.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:03:38 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Ginsberg memorial

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:59 PM 11/21/97 -0800, you wrote:

>  I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg

>memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the

>general public? If so, will it be a free event?

>  I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed

>themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a

>remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever

>put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,

>alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've

>worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've

>learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote

>'Howl' back in the 60's."

>  He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will

>continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my

>life for all of my days.

>                           Maggie G.

>Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"

> 

> 

> 

>__________________________________________________________________

>Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

> 

>That crazy guy wrote and recited that crazy poem Howl back in

the fifties.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:04:30 -0500

Reply-To:     blackj@bigmagic.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ginsberg memorial

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Maggie Gerrity wrote:

> 

>   I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg

> memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the

> general public? If so, will it be a free event?

>   I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed

> themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a

> remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever

> put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,

> alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've

> worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've

> learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote

> 'Howl' back in the 60's."

>   He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will

> continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my

> life for all of my days.

>                            Maggie G.

> Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"

> 

> __________________________________________________________________

> Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

MAGGIE:  The Parks Department says June 3 is the date for the annual

Central Park Conservancy and regrets erroneously notifying me

otherwise.  The tribute, planned as a two-day observance (one day in

Central Park and the next day in Newark's new PAC Center) is expected to

attract poets and artists from all over the world.  Amiri Baraka and I

have struggled to get the Central Park date because all previous

Ginsberg Memorials were held within 4 walls, and many who wanted to

attend couldn't BECuaaw there wasn't enough room.  We call the June

tribute "A Convocation of Contemporaneity's 'Best Minds.'"  The event

will be open to all and the date will be June 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12.  An

executive committee meeting must be held shortly to decide which date.

---Al Aronowitz, secretary, THE ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE.

--

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:15:18 -0800

Reply-To:     gbarker@thegrid.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Anne <gbarker@THEGRID.NET>

Subject:      Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

>      to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to

> simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any

> particular religion.

 

  I am agnostic, and, at least to me, it means that I believe that there

is something more powerful than myself that affects my life, but it is

beyond my comprehension and it would be a waste of my time to try to

figure its intentions.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:13:46 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      TIME Re: Atheism -- Agnostic

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Anne wrote:

> 

> Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> 

> >      to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to

> > simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any

> > particular religion.

> 

>   I am agnostic, and, at least to me, it means that I believe that there

> is something more powerful than myself that affects my life, but it is

> beyond my comprehension and it would be a waste of my time to try to

> figure its intentions.

 

sounds like maybe you've comprehended it and named it Time.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

"Death needs Time for what it lives to Grow on - for Ah Pook's Sweet

Sake." -- WSB

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:48:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

In-Reply-To:  <971121191223_617548379@mrin58.mail.aol.com>

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You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>>In a message dated 97-11-21 16:48:19 EST,

judith wrote:

> 

><< Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

> struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

> 

>  >>

>I couldn't agree with you more, Judith. I read Big Sur again last summer an=

d

>felt the same way, only I never got around to putting it in these words,

>which are perfect, disturbing and true.

 

I really do like Big Sur despite its sadness. You can see that this is

Kerouac at his most worn out and also at his most sincere. It is as if some

of the magic of life, and how he had viewed life in say, OTR, had kind of

been torn apart by the alcaholism and the reality of life and failure and

relationships. Now he can look back on what happened to him and see that he

is failing but that he no longer has the energy to repair the "botch of his

days". He is almost done "going". Is it in here that he says that it will

be his last hitchhike, or that he is done hitchhiking? Big Sur is my

favorite Kerouac after OTR.

 

leo

 

 

 

 

"All I wanted was to be a mariachi like my ancestors. But the city I

thought would bring me luck...Brought only a curse...I lost my guitar, my

hand, and her...With this injury, I may never play the guitar

again...Without her, I have no love. But with the dog...and the weapons,

I'm prepared...for the future." --The Mariachi in "El Mariachi"

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:01:39 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

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Marie Countryman wrote:

> _______

> a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat

> generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of

> freedom.

> also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did

> not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature

> in the sentence

> "And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."

 

I can't get over how bitter Jack is in the first chapter. He's refuting

everything he used to enjoy doing. It's a big, bitter,

been-there-done-that-so-what attitude. It's also sad to see him abandon

his spontaneous prose, of which he was very proud. In 1967 he comes

across as a boozed-up, lazy man. As we go further into the book, we'll

see the familiar Kerouac reverie that made him so great (if the book was

ALL bitterness, I wouldn't be rereading it again). We just have to

endure the grumpy old man's surliness in the first five or so pages.

 

Also, you can sense a bit of sad longing for his days with Neal...

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:10:25 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

Comments: To: saras@sisna.com

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Sara Straw wrote:

> 

> Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!

> You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new

> topic should initiate it.

> s.

 

I'll initiate a new topic...

Why are you here? Do you know much about the beats? Do you want to learn

more about the beats? Do you love Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs? Do

you love Kerouac, but not Ginsberg and Burroughs? Do you love Ginsberg,

but not Kerouac and Burroughs? Do you love Burroughs, but not Kerouac

and Ginsberg? Do you love Kerouac and Ginsberg, but not Burroughs? Do

you love Kerouac and Burroughs, but not Ginsberg? Do you love Ginsberg

and Burroughs, but not Kerouac? Or do you just dig Bob Kaufman?

 

All we know is beat-l has received another surly member.

 

emoticonlessly yrs,

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:40:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Mama Collins

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mama Collins

 

Shell,

Eyes of lost child,

Wanderer on highways,

Going home?

 

One Christmas,

Recalling my name,

A flash I recognized.

Later, sitting outside

Nursing home,

I refused to see the remnants of

Matriarchal dynasty.

Thoughtless, lost shell,

No person here.

 

Now, wishing to see beyond the shell,

Regrets are sifted.

Synapsis misfiring.

Not arteries, but sickness.

Had I known

Fear of aging,

of madness,

of slipping slowly away,

of suffering.

Had I but seen beyond the shell.

Perhaps, sifting regrets,

Looking to see beyond.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:47:54 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Adrien Begrand wrote:

> 

> Sara Straw wrote:

> >

> > Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!

> > You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new

> > topic should initiate it.

> > s.

> 

> I'll initiate a new topic...

> Why are you here? Do you know much about the beats? Do you want to learn

> more about the beats? Do you love Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs? Do

> you love Kerouac, but not Ginsberg and Burroughs? Do you love Ginsberg,

> but not Kerouac and Burroughs? Do you love Burroughs, but not Kerouac

> and Ginsberg? Do you love Kerouac and Ginsberg, but not Burroughs? Do

> you love Kerouac and Burroughs, but not Ginsberg? Do you love Ginsberg

> and Burroughs, but not Kerouac? Or do you just dig Bob Kaufman?

> 

> All we know is beat-l has received another surly member.

> 

> emoticonlessly yrs,

> 

> Adrien

 

i just hate them all to hell!!!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:04:22 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>> Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the

>> Deep Sea Say? with the chorus

>> 

>> What did the deep sea say?

>> What did the deep sea say?

>> It moaned and it groaned

>> and it splashed and it foamed

>> and it rolled on its' weary way

> 

>That's really nice.  I'm amazed of how little Woody Guthrie I've actually

>heard, considering what an influence he's been on many of my favorite

>artists.  Would you mind telling me where this song is available?  Thanks,

>Gary

 

 

There are Guthrie tapes and CD's available.  Many with Cisco Houston.  They

compile them differntly depending on who releases the recording so for this

one you'd need to look for the titles on the back and see if the song is

there (I forget the name of this particular tape.  I think it is called

what did the deep sea say so it's easy to tell if it is there.  One thing I

can say for sure is it is not one of the songs on the Library of Congress

set.

 

You can't go wrong buying a Woody Guthrie recording.  Just make sure it is

Woody Guthrie.  Sometimes they package tributes that will fool you.  You

think you're buying a Guthrie recording and your buying other people

singing the songs.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:23:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      woody guthrie  (was Re: Big Sur

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> >On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> >> Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the

> >> Deep Sea Say? with the chorus

> >>

> >> What did the deep sea say?

> >> What did the deep sea say?

> >> It moaned and it groaned

> >> and it splashed and it foamed

> >> and it rolled on its' weary way

> >

> >That's really nice.  I'm amazed of how little Woody Guthrie I've actually

> >heard, considering what an influence he's been on many of my favorite

> >artists.  Would you mind telling me where this song is available?  Thanks,

> >Gary

> 

> There are Guthrie tapes and CD's available.  Many with Cisco Houston.  They

> compile them differntly depending on who releases the recording so for this

> one you'd need to look for the titles on the back and see if the song is

> there (I forget the name of this particular tape.  I think it is called

> what did the deep sea say so it's easy to tell if it is there.  One thing I

> can say for sure is it is not one of the songs on the Library of Congress

> set.

> 

> You can't go wrong buying a Woody Guthrie recording.  Just make sure it is

> Woody Guthrie.  Sometimes they package tributes that will fool you.  You

> think you're buying a Guthrie recording and your buying other people

> singing the songs.

 

some of the tributes are really pretty good.  they definitely show some

of the range of influence WG had on a wide variety of music - not just

on dylan.

 

his songbook "Hard hitting songs" is pretty good and books "Seeds of

Man" and "Born to Win" are Excellent.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

p.s.  oh yeah that other book "Bound for Glory" ain't bad either.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 07:32:41 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

 

i agree with you, Judith.  it's an amazing piece of confessional writing that

one wonders if the confessor really understood just how much he was showing

us.  what a raw bearing of human soul in torment, loss, conflict and longing.

 

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Judith Campbell

Sent:   Friday, November 21, 1997 12:12 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Big Sur

 

At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:

>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something.  haven't even read on THIS

>thread in ages.... *yawn*

 

 

I reread Big Sur while  on my California pilgrimage in September.  I also

drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look

around for a while.  I stood on the rocks and read  "Sea" - listening to

the waves crash in.  Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a

heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken.  If he had beaten the

alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his

struggle.  Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.

 

 

....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...

No human words bespeak

the token sorrow older

than old this wave....

 

    Excerpt from "Sea"

    JK - Big Sur

 

 

Judith

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:40:49 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: woody guthrie  (was Re: Big Sur

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I have to recommend _Ballads of Sacco & Vanzetti_. Truly Amazing!

 

Adrien

 

RACE --- wrote:

> 

> some of the tributes are really pretty good.  they definitely show some

> of the range of influence WG had on a wide variety of music - not just

> on dylan.

> 

> his songbook "Hard hitting songs" is pretty good and books "Seeds of

> Man" and "Born to Win" are Excellent.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> 

> p.s.  oh yeah that other book "Bound for Glory" ain't bad either.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:24:43 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      latin people

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

cari amici,

 

i've a flashback of a movie with Dennis Hopper

in a latino american country (Mexico?) dated

circa 1970, where a group of friends have a

similar experience to Sal Paradise and

Dean Moriarty in the 3th part of "On the Road".

 

somehow or other the exotic countries are

described such as place where people goes

crazy and transgressive. this way is a bit

disappointing. why Mexico, Brazil, Italy, etc.

are match with such strange peculiarity?

 

i.e. the "german" people (or others of course, but

i've noticed them) when are in Italy they have

drunk and very rude, but when are in his own country

(saying Munich) they are square and respectable person.

 

un saluto a tutti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:43:17 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Mama Collins

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

hi bentz: your pome just brought to mind all the mixed feelings i

experienced in looking at pictures taken of my father this past summer.

alcoholic and small strokes in succession, i looked at the photos and

saw only a shell, no light of comprehension in the eyes, couldn't write

of it yet. thanks, you give my muse a wider scope than my mind has been

able to allow/

mc

 

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> Mama Collins

> 

> Shell,

> Eyes of lost child,

> Wanderer on highways,

> Going home?

> 

> One Christmas,

> Recalling my name,

> A flash I recognized.

> Later, sitting outside

> Nursing home,

> I refused to see the remnants of

> Matriarchal dynasty.

> Thoughtless, lost shell,

> No person here.

> 

> Now, wishing to see beyond the shell,

> Regrets are sifted.

> Synapsis misfiring.

> Not arteries, but sickness.

> Had I known

> Fear of aging,

> of madness,

> of slipping slowly away,

> of suffering.

> Had I but seen beyond the shell.

> Perhaps, sifting regrets,

> Looking to see beyond.

> 

> --

> 

> Peace,

> 

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:12:40 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Marie Countryman wrote:

> 

> All right, wifey, maybe i'm a big pain in the you-know-what,but after

> I've given you a recitation of the troubles I had to go through to make

> good in America between 1935 and more or less now, 1967, and although I

> also know everybody in the world's had his own troubles, you'll

> understand that my particular form of anguish came from being too

> sensitive to all the lunkheads I had to deal with just so I could get to

> be a high school football star, a college student pouring coffee and

> washing dishes and scrimmaging till dark and reading Homer's _Illiad_ in

> three days all at the same time and God help me, a WRITER whose very

> 'success,' far from being the a happy triumph as in old, was the sign of

> doom Himself. (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use

> regular punctuation for the new illiterate generation).

> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says, but in the past thirty years

> to such an extent that I don't recognize them as people any more or

> recognize myself as a real member of something called the human race. I

> can remember in 1935 when fulgrown men, hands deep in jacket pockets,

> used to go whistling down the street unnoticed by anybody and noticing

> no one themselves. And walking fast, too, to work or store or

> girlfriend. Nowadays, tell me, what is this slouching stroll people

> have? Is it because they're used to walking across parking lots only?

> Has the automobile filled them with such vanity that they walk like a

> bunch of lounging hoodlums to no destination in particular?

> _______

> a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat

> generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of

> freedom.

> also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did

> not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature

> in the sentence

> "And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."

> _____

> my hats in the ring, gents and women, shall we venture further into this

> territory?

> mc

 

at the risk of appearing *too* twisted, the second reading of this

didn't seem to me to be harsh at all.  it seemed in fact that JK was

near a breakthrough to a recognition of the absurdity of wanting

everyone to walk alike.

 

this morning i was goofing around and found this site

<http://members.aol.com/KatharenaE/private/Philo/Existentialism/absurd.html>

and it made me think even more about my second reading.  In the earlier

Kerouac that i've read there was a beauty in the innocent discovery of

new people who were different.  Here he seems to not only have lost that

-- but gotten to where (excuse my dashes i have no clue how to use them

nor parentheses) his recognition of difference is at a pit of not being

able to see the possibility of being part of the human race he once

enjoyed so much.  But the wonderful absurdity of the human race is

probably precisely the differences the total alien-ness of my neighbor

across the hall.  The current trends in culture trying to teach suburban

mall conformity (which i seem to recall WSB's late journals in the New

Yorker decrying) and the reactionary conformity of anti-conformity in

various groups and sub-groups found outside of the malls seem to me to

be really very close to the anger suggested in these openings.  And yet

it is just a short skip from this anger to reveling in the excitement

that things aren't the same.  I think Vanity in the title will be

telling - the absurdity of vanity (not the suppression of it -- but just

realizing that vanity is rarely rationally defensible yet nonetheless

felt deeply) goes along way in trying to figure out this whole Legend

and its lessons for me (at least).

 

At any rate that is a saturday morning twisted salina monologue ---- i

imagine that my third reading of the opening would send me somewhere

completely different <las>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

p.s.  I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my

family and relatives and whatnot.  But i'm interested, in the event that

i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"

order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them?  Any

suggestions?

 

also thanks to antoine for some Xmas music tips -- any other backchannel

Xmas music ideas will be thoroughly appreciated.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:23:19 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

> mc

 

anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

here?  i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to

check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough

to the other side of writer's block>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:25:32 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      atheism-agnostic

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Subject:

>         Atheism -- Agnostic

>   Date:

>         Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:45:27 -0500

>   From:

>         Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>

> 

> 

> I once, paradoxically, put my faith in atheism.  This was intertwined with a

> view that spirituality was religion, that religion's only honorable purpose

> was to explain the unexplainable, and that the majority of answers that

> religion gave - If God created man, who created God? - simply removed the

> question one step.

> 

> As the years past, my distrust of organized religion did not diminish, but a

> feeling of being attached to something bigger grew.  My first definable

> spiritual experience did not occur in a church or mosque or temple but

> cross-country skiing, in Northern Quebec, through the ancient hills of the

> Laurentians.  I was alone in the blue sky-ed, thirty below wilderness, high

> on exertion.  The crisp sun peering through the leafless maples, dancing on

> the fresh trackless snow, the world silent save for the sounds of the trees

> creaking and my own panting.  And then, it shifted.  I was no longer a lone

> skier in nature but a small part of nature.  I felt connected, not only to

> the natural beauty surrounding me, but to my known & unknown ancestors, my

> descendants to come, to everything and everyone.  I was a part of this big

> rolling ball of life and it felt good.  There was no past, no future, there

> was only the moment, the greater we, that always was and would continue to

> be.  In bliss I floated, not seeing angels or Gods, but simply being.  I

> slid out of this heightened awareness cold, miles from the cabin, serene and

> forever changed.

 

 

 

 

Wasn't there one time when Kerouac (to put this nicely) tried copulating

with Nature/Earth in his own backyard?  Wondering if there was any truth

to this, and was it done more as a sign of frustration or a real love of

nature or a spiritual thing?

 

anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:43:14 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Vanity of dulouz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I've looked and looked and every bookstore around here does not seem to

carry vanity of dulouz.  that was the one i was wanting to read next,

after 'some of the dharma.'  is 'dulouz' out of print?  or is it

avaiable (Please all you bookstore employees on the list, help me out

here...)

 

and does anyone know what of jack's unpublished works that the sampas

estate plans on releasing next??????

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:55:38 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Marie Countryman wrote:

>> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

>> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

>> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

>> mc

> 

>anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

>here?

 

 

 

 

Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:59:46 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Vanity of dulouz

Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>I've looked and looked and every bookstore around here does not seem to

>carry vanity of dulouz.  that was the one i was wanting to read next,

>after 'some of the dharma.'  is 'dulouz' out of print?  or is it

>avaiable (Please all you bookstore employees on the list, help me out

>here...)

 

It is in print.  Costs 11.95.  Try another bookstore or Tower Records.

 

There is www.amazon.com or www.barnes&noble.com that are web booksellers.

I have never bought from them, but they will send them to you in a matter

of days at a discount price.

 

If anyone has used these on-line behemoths I'd be curious to hear about it.

 

Also a great humanitarian here provided www.bibliofind.com which seems to

be used books but it has a massive great inventory (inventory should

actually be in quotes).

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:36:47 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: is this still beat-l?

In-Reply-To:  <199711211752.MAA06052@pike.sover.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a

question:

does beat studies fall into the same issues of

canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by

highlighting only a certain few writers?  (and maybe

the list falls prey to this, as well?)

kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?

and if this is the case, does anyone know why?

jim donahue

 

On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to

> any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for

> consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.

> and i have a bit of an empty head right now,

> but (armorplated glass house)

> i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class

> or philosophy 101

> does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?

> winner gets sound of one hand clapping.

> mc

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:44:25 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Cannon Fodder  (was Re: is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Donahue wrote:

> 

> well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a

> question:

> does beat studies fall into the same issues of

> canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by

> highlighting only a certain few writers?  (and maybe

> the list falls prey to this, as well?)

> kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?

> and if this is the case, does anyone know why?

> jim donahue

 

probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a

nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility.  Go Rinaldo Go.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:47:48 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> >Marie Countryman wrote:

> >> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

> >> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

> >> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

> >> mc

> >

> >anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

> >here?

> 

> Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.

 

well obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg

Galaxy - i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not

certain).  I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading lists for Jack that

we'd been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the

basic themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really

frustrate a natural born writer.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:51:18 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Cannon Fodder  (was Re: is this still beat-l?

In-Reply-To:  <347719F9.2290@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> James Donahue wrote:

> >

> > well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a

> > question:

> > does beat studies fall into the same issues of

> > canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by

> > highlighting only a certain few writers?  (and maybe

> > the list falls prey to this, as well?)

> > kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?

> > and if this is the case, does anyone know why?

> > jim donahue

> 

> probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a

> nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility.  Go Rinaldo Go.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> 

do have the html of this website?

id rather go direct than have to swin through all the

stuff that would come up on a keyword search.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:54:04 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend

MIME-Version: 1.0

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David Rhaesa wrote:

 

> p.s.  I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my

> family and relatives and whatnot.  But i'm interested, in the event that

> i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"

> order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them?  Any

> suggestions?

 

I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them

up:

 

Visions of Gerard

Dr. Sax

Maggie Cassidy

Vanity of Duluoz

The Town and the City

On The Road

Visions of Cody

Lonesome Traveler

Book of Blues

The Subterraneans

The Book of Dreams

The Dharma Bums

The Scripture of the Golden Eternity

Old Angel Midnight

Some of the Dharma

Desolation Angels

Mexico City Blues

Tristessa

Big Sur

Trip Trap

Satori in Paris

 

Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here!  This

thread is going to be interesting....

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:58:56 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cannon Fodder  (was Re: is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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James Donahue wrote:

> 

> do have the html of this website?

> id rather go direct than have to swin through all the

> stuff that would come up on a keyword search.

 

the shit-kicking list is at:

<http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/thebeats.htm>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:08:09 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism

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> As Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.

> Cordially,

> Mike Skau

 

I give up, what does THAT mean?

It sounds real cute, but doesn't compute.

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:14:36 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>> 

>> >Marie Countryman wrote:

>> >> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

>> >> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

>> >> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

>> >> mc

>> >

>> >anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

>> >here?

>> 

>> Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.

> 

>well obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg

>Galaxy - i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not

>certain).  I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading lists for Jack that

>we'd been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the

>basic themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really

>frustrate a natural born writer.

> 

 

You think a good boy like Jack wasn't reading Catholic World?

 

I am sure he was familiar with McCluhan fro awhile from mcCluhans writings

about Finnegans wake.

 

(Which McCluhan book is specifically referred to in the opening allusion in

Vanity of Duluoz (if any partiular one) --I don't know).

 

 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:38:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Splicing in AG into the Beat-Legend (was Re: Ordering of the

              Duluoz Legend

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Jym Mooney wrote:

> 

> I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them

> up:

 

OK -- thats An order so folks may want to quibble about it in the

previous thread.  Now i'm wondering from those out there (and i know

some of you are out there!) how you would splice in the various books by

Allen Ginsberg.  (yes, WSB, Corso, Snyder, etc. etc. are down the road

in this line of thinking.  no particular reason i picked AG second.

just did).....thanks for the help.  i like this list that although is

still in fetus stage - may be going somewhere someday somehow.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

> 

> Visions of Gerard

> Dr. Sax

> Maggie Cassidy

> Vanity of Duluoz

> The Town and the City

> On The Road

> Visions of Cody

> Lonesome Traveler

> Book of Blues

> The Subterraneans

> The Book of Dreams

> The Dharma Bums

> The Scripture of the Golden Eternity

> Old Angel Midnight

> Some of the Dharma

> Desolation Angels

> Mexico City Blues

> Tristessa

> Big Sur

> Trip Trap

> Satori in Paris

> 

> Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here!  This

> thread is going to be interesting....

> 

> Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 03:01:53 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

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> RACE wrote:

 

> this morning i was goofing around and found this site

> 

>http://members.aol.com/KatharenaE/private/Philo/Existentialism/absurd.ht

>ml

> and it made me think even more about my second reading.  In the earlier

> Kerouac that i've read there was a beauty in the innocent discovery of

> new people who were different.  Here he seems to not only have lost

> that

> -- but gotten to where (excuse my dashes i have no clue how to use them

> nor parentheses) his recognition of difference is at a pit of not being

> able to see the possibility of being part of the human race he once

> enjoyed so much.  But the wonderful absurdity of the human race is

> probably precisely the differences the total alien-ness of my neighbor

> across the hall.  The current trends in culture trying to teach

> suburban

> mall conformity (which i seem to recall WSB's late journals in the New

> Yorker decrying) and the reactionary conformity of anti-conformity in

> various groups and sub-groups found outside of the malls seem to me to

> be really very close to the anger suggested in these openings.  And yet

> it is just a short skip from this anger to reveling in the excitement

> that things aren't the same.  I think Vanity in the title will be

> telling - the absurdity of vanity (not the suppression of it -- but

> just

> realizing that vanity is rarely rationally defensible yet nonetheless

> felt deeply) goes along way in trying to figure out this whole Legend

> and its lessons for me (at least).

 

I have some trouble seeing your more positive reading of the passage. I

see it once again as a very tired Kerouac immersed in his own sorrow.

And if you want to work the word "vanity' into it, I would see it more as

the kind of vanity one would find in the Biblical Ecclesiastes, where, if

I remember it correct, it is said "All is vanity."  The end of all of

man's attempts to understand living is frustration.  Man is born to toil,

suffer and to die.  Perhaps in Kerouac's reasoning: what does life really

amount to?  His struggle to get to college as a football player, to leave

football and become a writer; cross the country numerous times, write

about it, but still see himself as misunderstood.  What is there left to

do but drink himself to death?  All his joy is so transitory in

relation to his despair. The same struggle he writes of in Big Sur (pg.

183) "O hell, I'm sick of life--If I had any guts I'd drown myself in

that tiresome water..." And that frustration about the vanity (futility)

of life combined with (pg. 191) "I feel a great ghastly hatred of myself

and everything."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:00:41 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: opening chapter of duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

wrote _the medium is the message_ has great short cameo role in annie hall.

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

> Marie Countryman wrote:

> > Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that

> > people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's

> > sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,

> > mc

> 

> anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to

> here?  i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to

> check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough

> to the other side of writer's block>

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:01:11 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      opening and closing books duluoz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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hey diane: my computer ate yr homework, or else i'd piggy back this onto

your post:(sorry dave i can't see any happy jack here - also in your

reading list, i'd put duluoz last of the list)

going to the text itself, in opening and closing books re penquin

edition:

p 23

"you kill yourself to get to the grave. especially you kill yourself to

get to the grave before you even die, and the name of that grave is

'success', th name of that grave is hullaballo boomboom horseshit.

p29

"for after all what is success? you kill yourself and a few others to

get to the top of your profession, so to speak, so that when you reach

middle age or a little later you can stay home and cultivate your own

garden in bliss: but by that time, because you've invented some kind of

better mousetrap, mobs come rushing across your garden and trampling all

your flowers. what's with that?

pg 262-3

"in fact i began to behink myself in that hospital. i began to

understand that the city intellectuals of the world were divorced from

the folkbody blood of the land and were just rotless fools, to

permissable fools, who really didn't know how to go on living. I began

to get a new vision of  my own of a truer darkness which just

overshadowed all this overlaid mental garbage of 'existentialism' 'and

hipsterism' and bourgeois decadence' and whatever names you want to give

it.

in the purity of my hospital bed, weeks on end, i, staring at the dim

ceiling while the poor men snored, saw that life is a brute creation,

beautiful and cruel, that when you see a springtime bud covered with

raindew, how can you believe it's beautiful when you know the moisture

is just there to encourage the bud to flower out just so's it can fall

off sere dead dry in the fall? all the contemporary LSD acid heads (if

1967) see the cruel beauty of the brute creation just by closing their

eyes: i've seen it too since: a maniacal mandala circle all mosaic and

dense with millions of cruel things and beautiful scenes goin on, like

say, swiftly on one side i saw one night a choirmaster of some sort in

'heaven' slowly going Ooowith his mouth in awe at the beauty of what

they were singing but right next to him is a pig being fed to an

alligator by cruel attendants on a pier and people walking by

unconcerned. just an example. Or that horrible mother kali of ancient

india and its wisdom aeons with all her arms bejeweled, legs and belly

too, gyrating insanely to eat back thru the only part of her that's not

jeweled, her yoni or yin, everythings she's given birth to. Mother

nature giving you birth and eating you back.

and i say wars and social catastrophes arise from the cruel nature of

bestial creation, and not from 'society' which after all has good

intentions or it wouldn't be called 'society' wouold it?

it is, face it , a mean heartless creation emanated by a God of wrath,

jehovah, yaweth, no-name, who will pat you kindly on the head and say

'now your'e being good' when you pray, but when your're begging for

mercy anyway say like a soldier hung by one leg from a tree trunk in

today's Vietnam, when yaweh's really got you out in the back of the barn

even in ordinary natureof fatal illness like my pa's then, he wont (sic)

listen, he will whack away at your lil behind with the long stick of

what they call 'original sin' in the theological christian dogmatic

sects but what i call 'the original sacrifice.'

that's not even worse, for god's sake , than watching your own human

father pop die in real life when you really realize 'father, father, why

has thou forsaken me?' for real, the man who gae you hopeful birth is

copping out right before your eyes and leaves you flat with the whole

problem and burden (your self) of his own foolishness in ever believing

that 'life' was worth anything what it smells like down in the bellevue

morgue when i had to identify franz'a body. your human father sits there

in death before you almost satisfied. that's what's so sad and horrible

about the 'god is dead' movement in contemporary religion, it's the most

tearful and forlorn phiosophical idea of all time."

_____

the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,

who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man he

had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before

becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning

of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.

having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very

successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous

breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and

humanity and spirituality.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:05:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac Gap Ad

 

To all you Madison Avenue Advertizers:

 

I think if you look closely you will see that the the Gap ad is not the same

photo as on Minor Characters by Joyce Johnson. Same roll of film, and it is

possible that Joyce was airbrushed out in the the gap photo, but different

photos.

 

And I would think that the person who took the photo has the rights to

republish the photo. The photographer was Jerome Yulsman.

 

I don't know if you have to get permission from the estate to publish a

public figure, even though in this case I think that they (Gap corp) did.

 

By the way, you can still see the Bar sign if you go to a bar in the village

called Kettle of Fish, not far from NYU. The bar moved from its original

site, and the "bar" sign, which was in the alley, is now inside the bar.

 

so it goes, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:05:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      god vs beat vs truth

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I think the reason I became an atheist is that I don't believe that there=

 is

an afterlife, or that there is a 'god' that has any control over my life =

(or

any body else's life). I belief that my life is a (fortunate) biological

accident. (fortunate for me anyway)

 

And it is because of that belief, that I think that this Life is so much =

more

sacred because this is the one and only.=20

 

It also makes me more aware of the misery that is around me in the world =

(I

am happy to report that my personal life is relatively happy). I am sorry

that these people have to go through their one and only life in such desp=

air

or unhappiness (not necessarily due to their own fault).

 

As far as spirituality, I believe that each person has a soul, and that s=

ome

are better developed (due to personal choice, chance, dumb luck, circumst=

ance

of events, environment, family, friends, mistakes, successes, planning,

surprises, and the unexplained) and that you always have to strive. So ha=

ving

spirituality has no relationship to a belief in an afterlife.

 

You treat a dog like a dog, it becomes a dog. You treat a dog like a pers=

on,

it becomes a person. You treat a person like a dog, it becomes a dog. You

treat a person like a person, it becomes a person.

 

Life is one long recipe. You have to start with some basic ingredients, t=

hen

slowly  add the right ingredients at the right time. Unfortunately, one o=

f

the problems with what is called life is not adding the right ingredient =

at

the right time, or adding the wrong ingredient, or adding too little to t=

oo

much of the right ingredient. And in most cases it takes a lifetime to ge=

t it

right. Some people stop caring about the recipe,  think that they don't h=

ave

to worry about it anymore, and all sorts of other shortcomings. Life can =

be

more delicate than a souffl=E9.

 

Allen Ginsberg told me that he doesn't believe in god or an afterlife,

because he cannot believe in anything he hasn't experienced. He also said

that the term 'beat generation' was just a media creation.

 

that is the end of my philosophy,

so it goes, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:21:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>David Rhaesa wrote:

> 

>> p.s.  I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my

>> family and relatives and whatnot.  But i'm interested, in the event that

>> i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"

>> order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them?  Any

>> suggestions?

> 

>I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them

>up:

> 

>Visions of Gerard

>Dr. Sax

>Maggie Cassidy

>Vanity of Duluoz

>The Town and the City

>On The Road

>Visions of Cody

>Lonesome Traveler

>Book of Blues

>The Subterraneans

>The Book of Dreams

>The Dharma Bums

>The Scripture of the Golden Eternity

>Old Angel Midnight

>Some of the Dharma

>Desolation Angels

>Mexico City Blues

>Tristessa

>Big Sur

>Trip Trap

>Satori in Paris

> 

>Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here!  This

>thread is going to be interesting....

> 

>Jym

 

PIC, too.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:25:19 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cannon Fodder  (was Re: is this still beat-l?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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James Donahue wrote:

> 

> On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

> 

> > James Donahue wrote:

> > >

> > > well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a

> > > question:

> > > does beat studies fall into the same issues of

> > > canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by

> > > highlighting only a certain few writers?  (and maybe

> > > the list falls prey to this, as well?)

> > > kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?

> > > and if this is the case, does anyone know why?

> > > jim donahue

> >

> > probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a

> > nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility.  Go Rinaldo Go.

> >

> > david rhaesa

> > salina, Kansas

> >

> do have the html of this website?

> id rather go direct than have to swin through all the

> stuff that would come up on a keyword search.

 

 

i agree, i love the inclusiveness of the rinaldo's approach.

http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:59:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Forthcoming stuff...

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 11:19 AM 11/22/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>> 

>> >and does anyone know what of jack's unpublished works that the sampas

>> >estate plans on releasing next??????

>> >

>> >cathy

>> 

>> 

>> >

>>  The second volume of Selected Letters has been delayed until January 1999.

>> After that, a third volume of letters and the journals (in 3 volumes) will

>> be released and it is reasonable to think that other works will follow, such

>> as Kerouac's juvenalia works and also other archival material; notebooks,

>> more poems, etc. .... The authorized bio is in the works for a release in a

>> year that will start with a 2...meanwhile, Ellis Amburn has a bio coming out

>> June 1998. Also, Geffen Records has a release for early next year featuring

>> new recordings of Kerouac reading and a song written by him and performed by

>> Tom Waits ("Home I'll Never Be" I believe it is called)and Primus.

>>                                                       The Kerouac Quarterly

>> 

>>   http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

>> 

>>      (Almost updated daily for your edification and delight....P.

>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                            Henry David Thoreau

>> 

>> 

> 

> 

> 

>thanks for the info, paul.  i appreciate it

> 

> 

>cathy

> 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:40:56 -0700

Reply-To:     saras@sisna.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>

Organization: SaraGRAPHICS

Subject:      Re: god vs beat vs truth

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Attila Gyenis wrote:

> Life is one long recipe. You have to start with some basic ingredients, then

> slowly  add the right ingredients at the right time. Unfortunately, one of

> the problems with what is called life is not adding the right ingredient at

> the right time, or adding the wrong ingredient, or adding too little to too

> much of the right ingredient. And in most cases it takes a lifetime to get it

> right. Some people stop caring about the recipe,  think that they don't have

> to worry about it anymore, and all sorts of other shortcomings. Life can be

> more delicate than a souffli.

> 

> 

> that is the end of my philosophy,

> so it goes, Attila

 

 

Gee, Attila, I LIKE that, and I like your name, Attila Gyenis, too.

I think you've summed it up really well, and there's nothing I can add

that will enhance it... so, bon apetite!

s