>From:   Bruce K. Isaacson, 102747,2722

>DATE:   6/14/97 4:39 PM

>RE:     Ginsberg Night at Enigma Garden, Las Vegas, Nevada

> 

>For your information.....

> 

>June 3, 1997 was Allen Ginsberg's 71st birthday.  On that evening, a

>group of 60 or so Las Vegas poets, writers, artists, bohos, and other

>illuminati turned out to remember Allen and honor his work and

>contribution.  There were notable poems commemorating Allen's work from

>German Santanilla and Gregory Crosby.  Dayvid Figler got the crowd

>bubbling with his own work and brought an excellent version of Allen

>reading "America", which held the audience intensely with its Vegas-like

>mix of humor and ennui.  Emmanuel read Allen's poem written to an

>Eldorado High School student, which contains a visionary mix of Howard

>Hughes-like paranoia and old-fashioned  Mob lore to describe Vegas of

>the 70s and America still.  Other parts of Allen's work read included

>Ignu and Kaddish.  Tribute poems to Allen by excellent poets who Allen

>favored such as Bob Kaufman and Helen Adam were also read aloud.  There

>was a score of Allen's books passed around by various people who brought

>them, including some limited editions as well as City Lights and Harper

>& Row publications.  Las Vegas poets who read also included Art Slate,

>Eavonka Ettinger, Joel Parilini, Mike Gullickson, Mike Flower, Jackie

>Nourigat, Mark Griffith and Gloria King.   A good time was had by all

>who attended and many came away with increased interest in one of

>America's unique and excellent voices.

> 

>Thanks to Las Vegas journalist and Enigma Cafe owner Lenadams Doris for

>making it possible.  I'd welcome hearing from anyone with other

>remembrances or comment.

> 

>Bruce Isaacson

>BruceI@compuserve.com

>Within a few weeks I expect the e-mail address to change to

>BruceI@skylink.net

> 

> 

>*--------------------------------------------------------*

>*  This occasional newsletter is sent to those who have  *

>*  visited our Ginsberg site.  If you do not wish to     *

>*  receive these very rare messages, simply hit reply    *

>*  and type REMOVE in the subject line.  We'll get you   *

>*  taken off the list immediately!  To be added to the   *

>*  mailing list, just drop us a line:                    *

>*--------------------------------------------------------*

>*              mongo.bearwolf@dartmouth.edu              *

>*--------------------------------------------------------*

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:32:33 -0700

Reply-To:     "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: [eye] Sum [soup]

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

little kid

chinese restaurant

pickup sticks

make em click

yum yum

mu shu new shu

size 11

hmm

 

[[ spent a good hour last night listening to the sights in my

neighborhood

[[ per Aristotle, we're supposed to be able to modify our hearing

[[ but fixed in our vision, seeing, perceptions and believing

[[ the words before you are true  ??? listening?

 

sounds like a vision >>Douglas

 

 

"the map is not the territory"                  babu@electriciti.com

  (Alfred Korzybski)                    www.electriciti.com/babu/

 

>----------

>From:  James William Marshall[SMTP:dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET]

>Sent:  Tuesday, July 15, 1997 11:01 AM

>To:    BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:       Sum

> 

>eyes

>boren captifitee

>anne wayting anne wayting

>four

>sum one two

>smutherme

> 

>                                                   James M.

 

<<nice>>

reminds me of Patti Smith and Tom Verlaine's "the night"

>all this "eye" talk

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:50:13 -0400

Reply-To:     Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970715114032.29026A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

The impression i got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care

for JK's portrayl of him, and that after a while he got over it.  As for

the rift between them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to

diverging lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with

carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?

 

Tracy

 

On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:

> 

> > * Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy printed

> > but Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *

> > again ciao.

> >

> > do any of you know anything about this?  was this the beginning of the rift

> > between them?

> >

> > ciao,

> > sherri

> >

> 

> I think the rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise

> two kids with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big

> $$$ with a book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny.  Even when

> Neal went to jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a

> typewriter to use in his cell but thats all)  When Neal was out of jail,

> he asked Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so

> he could feed his kids, and Jack refused.   In her book, "Off the Road",

> Carolyn Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:55:00 -0700

Reply-To:     "Lusha M. Kaufmann" <kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Lusha M. Kaufmann" <kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU>

Subject:      Info on Billie Holiday

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat

texts.  I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a

presentation on Women beats.  I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the

time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels

to find mention of her. So I was hoping to get some information from this

list.  I plead ignorance of most beat lit, and therefore seek your help

even more.

 

Thank you

 

Lush

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:10:01 -0400

Reply-To:     Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

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MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

 

This isn't exactly beat ( I believe he's usually saddled with the label

"NY School of Poets"-- which a friend once pointed out sounds like he

took a correspondence class advertised on  a matchbook cover...), but

Frank O'Hara's The Day Lady Died is a really lovely tribute, and among

my favorite poems.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:01:08 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> I get the feeling Jack is an impressionist painter here, just not up to

> par with some other things he has done.  What is he going for here?

> Where and why is he choosing this course.

> 

> I am hopelessly bogged down in Part II.

> 

> Next, how about some Proust?

> 

> I think it is like You Can't Go Home Again and The Web and the Rock,

> unfinished works that leave one wanting the greatness that is partially

> revealed full flung.

> 

> So, I am not sure I will finish Cody this second time.  But I tried.

 

Bentz,

 

The more of Cody I read, the more I like it.  I think that the hard thing

to grasp is the mixture of writing styles but that's inherent in an

approach that takes events out of time and treats them as visions,

perhaps dream-like, expressions of moments.  I do think that he thought a

lot about the structure of this book and that there is a method in his

madness, so to speak.  I've still got another hundred pages to go and I

don't know how it ends, but I think he was struggling with a way to

present timelessness and unconscious/mythical configurations as an

overlay over actual events, and that is a hard thing to do and a hard

thing to read.  I'm still not sure if he's pulled it off.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:06:02 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Literary Dandies

Comments: To: babu@electriciti.com

 

In a message dated 97-07-15 05:16:38 EDT, you write:

 

<< 

 I wonder what if Andy Warhol had been there with Neal instead? >>

 

That's a good one. Stills in action = film. Fast fwd. with Neal. The Lip sink

would have been off just like the portraits.

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:19:51 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: love_singing@msn.com

 

Of course. Where would any of us be with the petty quarrling?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:51:41 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

 

In a message dated 97-07-15 15:11:57 EDT, you write:

 

<<  Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a

 typewriter to use in his cell but thats all)   >>

 

Thanks a lot. Yeah. I'll never forget those eyes when Neal pleaded with me to

lend him a fin ($5.00) to buy gas to the Hell's Angels party. It's a look you

never want to see. I've seen it on the Bowery and every skid row too much. He

had to make a big deal about paying me back. Of course he never had to go

through any of this. And It wasn't part of a con; It was atavistic.  So

anyway, fuck miserly Jack, who had a lot of things going for him except

class. Neal had more of that.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:20:08 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: tjneuman@umich.edu

 

In a message dated 97-07-15 16:54:46 EDT, you write:

 

<< and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with

 carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?

 

 Tracy >>

I'd guess that money was more important to N than J' sex with his wife,

Unless, of course he was humping her whlie N was in prison.

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:34:07 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

In-Reply-To:  <33CBBAE4.2E42@together.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:01 AM -0700 7/15/97, Diane Carter wrote:

 

> I'm still not sure if he's pulled it off.

 

see Man Ray, "L'enigme d'Isidore Ducasse" (1920)

 

 

and what's underneath?  pray tell, Diane?

 

> DC = deux chat

 

dancing pirate

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/                let the man come thru

stand up, and let the man come thru             let the man come thru

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:30:09 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

 

In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:

 

<< Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat

 texts.  I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a

 presentation on Women beats.  I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the

 time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels

 to find mention of her.  >>

 

Oh fer Chrissake!

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:32:22 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

Comments: To: kaufmanl@pacificu.edu, baculum@mci2000.com

 

In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU (Lusha M.

Kaufmann) writes:

 

<< Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat

 texts.  I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a

 presentation on Women beats.  I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the

 time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels

 to find mention of her. So I was hoping to get some information from this

 list.  I plead ignorance of most beat lit, and therefore seek your help

 even more.

  >>

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:40:38 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Tracy J Neumann wrote:

> 

> The impression i got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care

> for JK's portrayl of him, and that after a while he got over it.  As for

> the rift between them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to

> diverging lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with

> carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?

> 

> Tracy

> 

> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

> 

> > On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:

> >

> > > * Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy printed

> > > but Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *

> > > again ciao.

> > >

> > > do any of you know anything about this?  was this the beginning of the

 rift

> > > between them?

> > >

> > > ciao,

> > > sherri

> > >

> >

> > I think the rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise

> > two kids with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big

> > $$$ with a book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny.  Even when

> > Neal went to jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a

> > typewriter to use in his cell but thats all)  When Neal was out of jail,

> > he asked Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so

> > he could feed his kids, and Jack refused.   In her book, "Off the Road",

> > Carolyn Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.

> >

 

 

You forget to mention that Neal set Jack up with Carolyn.  Disagreements

over sexual situations like this one last awhile for men. Disagreements

about money last longer--beleive me, I've been there.  This one was

about money.  Jack was no sexual threat to Neal.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:34:12 -0500

Reply-To:     Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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now now charlie, don't you feel like doing this persons homework,

 why we could suggest a reading list. I won't flame the guy cause that

soft hearted salina guy will tut me with his patience.  and i have been

there,  don't feel like actually reading the stuff and then coming up

with an idea of something interesting to write. I just randomly pick an

idea and ask people . maybe hit the yahoo search button.ok i haven't

been there.

because i love to read and talk

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:47:26 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Literary Dandies

In-Reply-To:  <970715230547_-1125008626@emout11.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 8:06 PM -0700 7/15/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

> In a message dated 97-07-15 05:16:38 EDT, you write:

> 

> <<

>  I wonder what if Andy Warhol had been there with Neal instead? >>

> 

> That's a good one. Stills in action = film. Fast fwd. with Neal. The Lip sink

> would have been off just like the portraits.

 

 

no no no.  those were the pissing portraits.  where Joe Dellasandro emptied

his bladder.  and don't forget fuck, heat, and what where some of his other

film titles?  Will never forget Dracula and Frankenstein.  changed me

forever as a kid.  jeez, and can't keep bowie's suffragette city off my

tape player, either.  damn.

 

I miss Andy.  and Versace who died today.  all dandies must morn.  Andy

created the term "superstar".  Got his start designing shoe advertisments.

Who would have thought?  that some other agenda should come along and shoot

him!

 

but andy would have talked real slow.  I'm told he had quite the wit, but

don't know if Neal wouldn't get quickly bored with him.  Kerouac at least

seems to keep his attention.  they cruised similar strips.  I guess andy

and neal would talk about cars and chicks or fame and death and dying.

 

yeah?  <<Andy

 

yeah.  <<Neal

 

[[lots of staring out to sea

 

> C Plymell  = count plymouth

 

dancing paris

 

 

 

<<laugh......

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/                let the man come thru

stand up, and let the man come thru             let the man come thru

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:49:01 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

In-Reply-To:  <970715231931_1961001112@emout15.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 8:19 PM -0700 7/15/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

 

> Of course. Where would any of us be with the petty quarrling?

 

without Charles.                WITHOUT!

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:13:39 -0700

Reply-To:     "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

Comments: To: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <970716003008_-1460255033@emout12.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

> In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:

> 

> << Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat

>  texts.  I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a

>  presentation on Women beats.  I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the

>  time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels

>  to find mention of her.  >>

> 

> Oh fer Chrissake!

> C. Plymell

 

dear plymell:

> 

what the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was

there and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy

response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair

enough question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and

questings.

 

if you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some

constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a

snotty repost from deep left field!!!!

 

steve

 

(who is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she

mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a

message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;

they will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care

about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her

work for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list

for views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a

snotty snit.)

 

s.s.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:24:33 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Blues for Gianni

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Sic transit gloria, Gianni

 

No beat certainly but terrific flair.

 

A loss to Eurotrash everywhere.  Not a dandy tho, sort of an

anti-dandy--the triumph of flash over taste, but god rest his soul. I'll

miss the catalogs, acres of lovely flesh to sell a teacup or a necktie.

Warhol would have liked him, I should think.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:36:36 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Steve,

 

As one who flamed your student let me just say this.  If someone came on

the list with a question about Billie and the Beats, or a hypothesis to

test, I think they'd get a fair response.  The post which started this

admitted a lack of time to do the reading and just asked for shortcuts.

How would you like "Dear Beat List, I have a paper assigned dealing with

On the Road.  I don't have time to read it, could someone please help me

by posting a summary.  Thanks so much.  I sure am looking forward to

being a college graduate."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:02:24 -0700

Reply-To:     "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To:  <33CC6BF4.605E@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Steve,

> 

> As one who flamed your student let me just say this.  If someone came on

> the list with a question about Billie and the Beats, or a hypothesis to

> test, I think they'd get a fair response.  The post which started this

> admitted a lack of time to do the reading and just asked for shortcuts.

> How would you like "Dear Beat List, I have a paper assigned dealing with

> On the Road.  I don't have time to read it, could someone please help me

> by posting a summary.  Thanks so much.  I sure am looking forward to

> being a college graduate."

> 

dear james: bit of a logical fallacy in yer response above, eh? yes, she did

mention lack of time--a bit of a fall on her part: what she was saying

most of all (negated or circumscribed due no doubt to email structure and

her own nervousness about posting to the list for the first time) was

that she was looking for extra stuff AFTER her own work.

 

the logical fallacy gig i mention is that not one part of your analogy

even remotely applies to her original post or to the spirit of it.

 

however, i do see how you might go off half-cocked like this-----i made

the same mistake (as i painfully found out) on another list

 

i monitor all lists that i suggest my students use for conversation and

info---i would consider it a serious breach of academic honesty for any

of them to get others to do their work for them; i do not in the

slightest way feel that lusha has done such a thing on the beat-l list

 

i must say that i will think twice before i suggest the list address to

my students in the future

 

please, james, do not consider this a response only to you--in tone or in

content; i am up in arms in a general way--and always with the best

interests of my student and her interests and feelings in mind

 

steve

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:16:48 -0700

Reply-To:     "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

Comments: To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I tend to agree with Charles on this one.  Forgetting hat it sounds a lot

someone asking for someone else to do their homework (a common event on "the

net")

 

But,

 

Billie Holiday is not "a Women beat".  Might as well do a topic on Buddy

Bolden Jimmie Rodgers or Robert Johnson or maybe in keeping with the woman

theme, Bessie Smith or Lena Horne or Sarah Vaughn or anybody  How Kate (God

Bless America Smith?).  How about Patsy Cline?

 

I guess you are limiting the topics to people mentioned in Beat writing.

How about Yma Sumac???

 

Also, what do you expect to glean from the writings and poetry you don't

have time to read in terms of a presentation on Billie Holliday?  So is your

presentation about Billie Holliday or about what was written about her by

some drunken beatniks? Letting us know more would help.

 

The easyest way for you to learn something about Billie Holliday is to go to

Blockbuster video and rent Lady Sings the Blues (1972 starring Diana Ross

and Billie Dee Williams).

And to answer your question anyhoooooow (so don't say I didn't help ya)  in

Visions of Cody there is a bit where they mention Billie Holliday and her

song Gloomy Sunday as the suicide song of the thirties.

 

And also don't go sulk.  Write back if you are actually keen on this.

At 11:13 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> 

>> In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:

>> 

>> << Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat

>>  texts.  I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a

>>  presentation on Women beats.  I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the

>>  time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels

>>  to find mention of her.  >>

>> 

>> Oh fer Chrissake!

>> C. Plymell

> 

>dear plymell:

>> 

>what the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was

>there and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy

>response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair

>enough question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and

>questings.

> 

>if you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some

>constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a

>snotty repost from deep left field!!!!

> 

>steve

> 

>(who is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she

>mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a

>message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;

>they will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care

>about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her

>work for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list

>for views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a

>snotty snit.)

> 

>s.s.

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:17:41 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Just because some beat me to it don't mean I can't say it too

Comments: To: race@MIDUSA.NET

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Say what? Thank you David. Not that that tired old clich=E9 means

anything, nor do i mean to insinuate in any way that you did it looking

for any kind of thanks or something like it, still i been wantin to tell

you as soon as I read your piece, that was just one of those things that

happen once in a great while when something is just all right, in the

right time, and right on time too, not to mention right on target, The

best for the last after all kinds of agonizing brilliant flashes

sparking energies all around.

 

As I found myself writing to a friend I suddenly realized I should let

you know too how it made me feel. And now that I do, I would be less

than candid if I didn't mention to you that this protesting of

illiteracy  so much does make me wonder, hey what's going on here.

Myself I thought one of the virtues of your post was that it took a

populist style so to speak as opposed to an exhibition of alive

effervescent erudition and agility like almost magician sparkling before

my eyes, still not quite matching my non-literary real life

nevertheless, impressions of the subject of these eloquent theories also

that plain folks  like me also are grateful to be within ear shot though

feeling not up to the task of entering knowledgeable literary, poetic

philosophic let alone moral judgments and considerations, in other words

having enjoyed the great inspired symphony in awed drop jaw silence, you

helped me catch my breath again, to find my voice jabbering nonsense,

forgive me everybody

 

I am delighted with the poetic justice that awarded you such a fitting

celebration after the brilliant flowers that shot up in the garden that

you planted. You drew such dedicated energy of such immense talents.

ending with such a beautiful bouquet to crown the fruits of David's

taking your call so close to his heart, which beats  pretty close to

that backpack also, and coming through, coming through, hey guys, look

at it this way. I too felt a strong draw to immediately let him know how

welcome  his touch was, but I was derailed. I had time to answer a

couple of letters. And one thing I did that I hadn't done before, was

forward a post. I was answering John Cassady's invitation for a lunch,

and I added on to him David's post. Come to think of it, I too should

say something to David (Our counterpart of Rinaldo Rasa?). Now that I

think of it I'll snip this his part of this letter and send it to him.

He deserves all the responses that he gets. End of snip

 

Now come to think of it again, I'll mail it to us on the list.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:59:49 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:32 AM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU (Lusha M.

>Kaufmann) writes:

> 

><< Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat

> texts.  I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a

> presentation on Women beats.  I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the

> time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels

> to find mention of her. So I was hoping to get some information from this

> list.  I plead ignorance of most beat lit, and therefore seek your help

> even more.

>  >>

> 

 

 

Billy was a wonderful singer, but who ever said she was a beat?

Anyway, look at the Diane Ross film Lady Sings the Blues if you

want a distorted overview.

 

Mike Rice

mrice@centuryinter.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:04:28 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:34 PM 7/15/97 -0500, you wrote:

>now now charlie, don't you feel like doing this persons homework,

> why we could suggest a reading list. I won't flame the guy cause that

>soft hearted salina guy will tut me with his patience.  and i have been

>there,  don't feel like actually reading the stuff and then coming up

>with an idea of something interesting to write. I just randomly pick an

>idea and ask people . maybe hit the yahoo search button.ok i haven't

>been there.

>because i love to read and talk

>p

> 

> 

The last time I saw Lady Day she was standing in front of the

City Lights bookstore in S.F., tying up her arm for a hot

shot of horse from a syringe  dangling from her

purse.  Billy had stood up the crowd at the Hungry I that

night, but she didn't seem to give a shit.  She had a date

to meet Lenny Bruce in front of City Lights.  So who shows

up?  Thats right, Ladies and Gentleman: Albert Goldman!

 

Strange Fruit, don't you think?

 

Mike Rice

mrice@centuryinter.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:03:04 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:40 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Tracy J Neumann wrote:

>> 

>> The impression i got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care

>> for JK's portrayl of him, and that after a while he got over it.  As for

>> the rift between them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to

>> diverging lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with

>> carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?

>> 

>> Tracy

>> 

>> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

>> 

>> > On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:

>> >

>> > > * Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy printed

>> > > but Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *

>> > > again ciao.

>> > >

>> > > do any of you know anything about this?  was this the beginning of the

> rift

>> > > between them?

>> > >

>> > > ciao,

>> > > sherri

>> > >

>> >

>> > I think the rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise

>> > two kids with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big

>> > $$$ with a book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny.  Even when

>> > Neal went to jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a

>> > typewriter to use in his cell but thats all)  When Neal was out of jail,

>> > he asked Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so

>> > he could feed his kids, and Jack refused.   In her book, "Off the Road",

>> > Carolyn Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.

>> >

> 

> 

>You forget to mention that Neal set Jack up with Carolyn.  Disagreements

>over sexual situations like this one last awhile for men. Disagreements

>about money last longer--beleive me, I've been there.  This one was

>about money.  Jack was no sexual threat to Neal.

> 

>James Stauffer

> 

> 

Listen, Gore Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,

and had been lovers, at least at times.  isn't it possible

homosexuality played a role in their rift?

 

Mike Rice

mrice@centuryinter.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:12:47 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Gianni Versace.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

    COME VORREI MORIRE   by Gianni Versace

 

        COME IL CONTE SALINA DI LAMPEDUSA,

           IL GATTOPARDO: GUARDANDO

             IL LAGO, CON SERENITA'.

            LA MORTE NON MI FA PAURA.

 

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:04:50 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      From Cody to Stephen

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Good Morning,

 

Friends, and that is what i feel so many of you are, cybernetically

connected to me more closely than most people i know - i thought i would

sit down for a moment this morning while sipping my first cup of coffee

and express some gratitude for all the wonderful comments i have

received recently both on the List and Off.  I must admit that my big

toe is swelling a bit but fortunately not my head yet. =20

 

A very wise man taught me through a book that it is all about having an

angle and so i guess that i just looked at all the different geometric

shapes created by others and then stepped back about ten paces and took

in the larger portrait. =20

 

I've enjoyed the specific comments and what one refered to me as the

reinvigoration of the cyberthread or something along those lines.  I

believe that certain people have made a serious question about the

nature of the gift that Jack gave Cody and the appreciation of it and i

really just thought about the times at Christmas and Birthdays when

people who loved me with their hearts full gave me presents that were so

far from what i really desired that i sometimes wanted to scream - don't

you know i'll never wear these things!  But i never did because to me

there is something about intentionality when it comes to the giving of

gifts even of the legendary and the mythic variety - and even in these

perhaps archetypal rituals of gift-giving we can look back and say that

it is the thought that counts.

 

As i said, i am moving ahead to another book and today on July 16 i will

finally crack this book by James Joyce that just feels powerful.  I

believe that i will actually read this book about June 16 very slowly

and linearly.

 

I realize the journey will be dangerous.  A dear friend in Kansas City

reported that half way through Ulysses he had a stroke.  The doctors

didn't declare any causal relationship but it makes you wonder.

 

So armed with guides and bodyguards and a rolling tape of the Grateful

Dead playing Saint Stephen in my mind i trudge forward.  I will turn

into the chapter titled I this morning some time.

 

Here were my impressions of Judging the upcoming book by its cover...

 

 

Erasing Apollo - Erasing Bacchus: Another tale in the Legend of

Abraxas......

 

I hold the black and white book in my hands listening to a man with my

middle name as he maps the stars that one reads on a journey along the

road of the physical world or along the roads twisting and turning in

and out as one attempts to find the oblique pathway back to the sanity

of times forgotte.  The eternal myth of return is recounted in this

black and white book and I have so many guides helping me from stars

beyond parallel universes all the way home to the safety and security of

a sacred bathroom in an apartment named #23.  This journey is the

oblique pathway from insanities so personal that perhaps they should not

be told.  Some say that in the telling I can help others to find their

way but each route winds a different road up and around hollers in the

mountains and back through misty mornings in the hill country going

through the roots of one=92s psyche and physical ancestry chasing a hope

of return, return to something that maybe never was but hopefully will

be when I get there.  This map is not an accurate description of the

territory and at best is my individual map and no one can learn

themselves from it, only me.  For those who find that uninteresting, as

I might, I would not be at all offended if you set this down and

returned to your busy lives and the realities of everyday magic that you

love and cherish.  If you don=92t love and cherish the everyday elements

of your life, perhaps you should read on for a bit at least, because the

places and stories of the unreal-realities that were so deeply felt to

me makes the lives of the average James and Joyce a portrait of the

mysteries of happiness.  I hold the book in my hand.  Just holding it is

enough for now.  No need to open this book yet. =20

 

Some might think my perceptions off for saying that this is a black book

with white letters.  Even I did for quite some time.  Many say don=92t

judge a book by its cover and being the intrinsically rebellious type I

have done so for many many years.  My judgement is that this will be a

good book.  I think of Melanie=92s line - wish I could find a good book t=

o

live in.  I don=92t really feel that I will live in this book, not

permanently at least, but it appears at first glance to be a good enough

to help me find my way into my own book, a book that does not represent

my Self but actually is me.  Hopefully, these somewhat random musings

along the journey through this good book will provide direction for me

towards a book worth living in that is one in which I am both author and

protagonist and most of the characters in the mist.

 

The white letters on the black background appear on the back of this

book.  At the top right hand corner of the back cover is the word

LITERATURE.  And I smile and say to my little self well it=92s about time

you journey into this Type of Book to see where it will take you - you

dork! =20

 

I read further and am zapped by a lightning bolt of synchronicity

recognizing the white numerals signify the year in which I was born.  It

is as if the complete and unabridged text was corrected and entirely

reset just for me.  At least that will be the way it is for a period of

time as my mind wanders through this book checking in with my guides and

bodyguards along the way.

 

I am sitting on my sofa as I read these white words and it is brown and

green and belonged to my step-Grandmother Mary Vineyard who died fairly

recently.  I visited her and her son Don - my stepfather and conservator

- at the nursing home shortly before her death and we both watched and

felt her pain and I watched Don=92s pain the tough Marine facing the

passing of his Mother and it was such a touching and sorrowful event.=20

Entire books could be written about gentle Mary Vineyard and her sons

but that is not the direction that my words will go today.  Rather, I

will sit on her sofa as I examine this book corrected and reset in the

year of my birth into this world.

 

I read further and see that the original American edition, which is all

I could possibly comprehend, was published at the time that my parents

were infants and that there is a foreward by the author and a foreward

containing the court decision concerning the censorship of this good

book in my hands the opinion of a Judge John M. Woosley.

 

My heart leaps for joy.  I will be able to meet the author before

delving into this new ground of literature but I will be able to ground

the entire reading in an area of my expertise as I spent an entire year

involved in critical study and reearch of American first amendment law.=20

It will be interesting to ponder Judge Woosley=92s words in light of the

notions of critical theory and postmodern criticism which I have studied

in application to the good book I am about to travel through.  It will

provide an anchor to this journey of a time when my mind was not only

fine but sharp as a tack when I spent hours examining and analyzing and

synthesizing the words of Supreme Court justices in an attempt to create

new visions of thought relating to subject matters loosely thrown

together under the veil of freedom of expression.

 

A numerological code is explained which may be beyond me, but it appears

that this edition which allows the pages of the old to appear in the

pages of the new and this makes me think of the relativity of time but

not so much that my mind spins off in a tornado.

 

This is the first time it is in paperback.  Perfect.  I much prefer

paperbacks especially used ones because you can feel the past in them

much better.  They read more like a well worn pair of tattered Levis

than a Tuxedo and I am much more at home in the tattered blue jeans.

 

One other thing appears in white on the back cover.  a numerical code.=20

394-70380-4.  I remember and laugh at myself times in the past when I

would search for meaning in the numerical code of the book rather than

open the book and read it.  Perhaps just a different form of perception

a different methodology of reading.  Probably not though!

 

These are the white letters on the cover and they are indeed

meaningful.  The remainder of the cover provides incredibly enticing

emblems including three flowers (which I will proclaim are sunflowers)

two purple and one red with faces on the inside where the sunflower

seeds grow and I laugh at the time in Winston-Salem North Carolina where

a appalachian trail hiker named Easy Rider decided that I was Johnny

Sunflower Seed.  I wonder what he=92s doing now?

 

The book has a tattered front cover.  Just like my favorite jeans.  It

is an antique.  I will cherish this book like one is I live in it for

some time to come.  I peak inside the back cover.  It appears that a

previous owner had difficulty with getting a pen to produce ink and

swirled and swirled around until the ink came along in a jagged little

line in the middle of the swirls.  Lightning bolt among the swirling

waters.  I declare that this page is art.

 

What a wonderful cover.  What a good book.  I will definitely move into

this book soon.  But for now I will slow my pace a bit more even to the

crawl of a turtle along the side of a country road lost looking for its

way back home but perfectly content in its journeying.  No homesickness

in the turtle.  No fear because of the biological gift of a suit of

armour.  And I feel my own protections secret shields that envelope me

that I must address and so I set the book beside me on old Mary

Vineyard=92s sofa and move my mind to sweet things in the present and the

future.

 

 

The sweet things border on the edges of Henry Miller and Anais Nin but

hopefully i'll not be too distracted by the sweet wonders to prevent me

from trudging through this June 16 adventure finding my way back from

the universal to the particular and from there ... from there ...  ah

shit, i ain't gonna try and look that far ahead.

 

shalom,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:03:11 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

 

In a message dated 97-07-16 05:37:38 EDT, you write:

 

<< .

 >Kaufmann) writes:

 >

 ><< Hello, >>

 

Lusha. How did Bob feel about being a beat? I put him up there at Corso

status, though willing to be on the front lines more. Took unecessay

beat-ings from the cops. I knew him most in  his silent days, so we spent

most of the time on the Muni just looking out the windows.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:07:53 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

 

In a message dated 97-07-16 06:15:56 EDT, you write:

 

<< Jack was no sexual threat to Neal.

 > >>

 

I think James is correct on this. There might be spats, yes. And I think Neal

wd have felt a little betrayed in prison where his mind had time to play on

him, but money would be the larger concern in the long run.

Anyway that's how I'd see it. Maybe ask Carolyn?

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:53:36 -0700

Reply-To:     "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

Comments: To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PTX.3.91.970715230124.24116B-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:

 

> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> 

> > In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:

> >

> > << Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat

> >  texts.  I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a

> >  presentation on Women beats.  I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the

> >  time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels

> >  to find mention of her.  >>

> >

> > Oh fer Chrissake!

> > C. Plymell

> 

> dear plymell:

> >

> what the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was

> there and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy

> response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair

> enough question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and

> questings.

> 

> if you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some

> constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a

> snotty repost from deep left field!!!!

> 

> steve

> 

> (who is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she

> mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a

> message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;

> they will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care

> about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her

> work for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list

> for views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a

> snotty snit.)

> 

> s.s.

> 

 

Lusha...

 

All I know is that if I hear Billy singing April in Paris at the right

time, in the right place, I can be moved to a tear or two. My advice re:

any concerns you have about this list and the responses to your question

is this...Persist and elaborate! Engage in the conversation...no need to

be sheepish...Get in here and pitch. It's cool that Steve wants his

students to feel safe but safety is highly over rated and at some point,

your questions will have to be powerful enough to override your fears.

I've lurked this list for a long time. There is personality and insight

galore. I think people get a little label weary... at least I do.

Creating a beat or a buick for that matter, out of thin air can cause my

stomach to do a turn. The point Lusha is that you have the question...you

will have to facilitate getting your answers. Steve will only be with you

so long and I guaren-damn-tee that the best research skill you will ever

cultivate is the persistance of your own mind.

 

-Shannon (in Tucson where it really is too damn hot!)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:10:18 -0400

Reply-To:     sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

Comments: To: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.91.970716093756.12636V-100000@baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I think what Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,

ALTHOUGH A GREAT SINGER, IS NOT A POET/AUTHOR, OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT

MATTER!  Calm down, people! *grin*

 

                         Sara Feustle

                    sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

 

 

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Shannon L. Stephens wrote:

 

> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:

> 

> > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> >

> > > In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:

> > >

> > > << Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat

> > >  texts.  I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a

> > >  presentation on Women beats.  I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the

> > >  time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels

> > >  to find mention of her.  >>

> > >

> > > Oh fer Chrissake!

> > > C. Plymell

> >

> > dear plymell:

> > >

> > what the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was

> > there and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy

> > response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair

> > enough question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and

> > questings.

> >

> > if you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some

> > constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a

> > snotty repost from deep left field!!!!

> >

> > steve

> >

> > (who is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she

> > mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a

> > message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;

> > they will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care

> > about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her

> > work for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list

> > for views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a

> > snotty snit.)

> >

> > s.s.

> >

> 

> Lusha...

> 

> All I know is that if I hear Billy singing April in Paris at the right

> time, in the right place, I can be moved to a tear or two. My advice re:

> any concerns you have about this list and the responses to your question

> is this...Persist and elaborate! Engage in the conversation...no need to

> be sheepish...Get in here and pitch. It's cool that Steve wants his

> students to feel safe but safety is highly over rated and at some point,

> your questions will have to be powerful enough to override your fears.

> I've lurked this list for a long time. There is personality and insight

> galore. I think people get a little label weary... at least I do.

> Creating a beat or a buick for that matter, out of thin air can cause my

> stomach to do a turn. The point Lusha is that you have the question...you

> will have to facilitate getting your answers. Steve will only be with you

> so long and I guaren-damn-tee that the best research skill you will ever

> cultivate is the persistance of your own mind.

> 

> -Shannon (in Tucson where it really is too damn hot!)

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:17:50 -0700

Reply-To:     "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

<<general musings this morning>>

 

you write:

 

> Ok so I can't write words anymore. I'll go to China.

 

and will you knock your sconce against the wall there?  that great wall.

 the wall all runners dream about?

 

and let me add:  in rainbows.  Chopped so much wood last night, the past

few nights, that I should be kept warm this summer.  In deed.  If I

didn't burn and boil all the water out of my house.  late at night.

"Don't smoke in bed" they say.  and it's true.  this body is cinder for

thought and I fear the flame.

 

email would have been a send for the beats, I imagine.  Would they have

felt the need to always travel the roads?  Was watching this Marilyn

Monroe, Clark Gable movie last night on teaV.  no sound, just the black

and white images on my 21 inch screen.  The camera is looking.  always

looking.  at Marilyn.  at Gable looking at Marilyn.  bodies in motion.

 

"[...] from an historical conjuncture, from the mouth of another,

wherein the spirt without knowledge is dumb; but if the spirit opens to

him the signature, then he understands the speech of another; and

further, he understands how the spirit has manifested and revealed

itself (out of the essence through the principal) in the sound of the

voice."  == (Boehme, _The signature of all things_)

 

-=-=-

there's a book by Thomas Calvino I've only heard about.  deals with the

historical city of Venice, Italy.  The seven or so chapters give

different views of the same city.  Written from different perspectives.

The multifaceted nature of things, I guess is the point.

 

but what would the signature of God be?   what lies behind the veil?

what is Kerouac after with his recordings of Neal.  From Diane's

excellent elucidations, I wonder. [[need to look at Ginsberg's photos

more.

 

tied up in nots, due process

 

 

 

"the map is not the territory"                  babu@electriciti.com

  (Alfred Korzybski)                    www.electriciti.com/babu/

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:23:48 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

 

In a message dated 97-07-16 06:24:30 EDT, you write:

 

<< The last time I saw Lady Day she was standing in front of the

 City Lights bookstore in S.F., tying up her arm for a hot

 shot of horse from a syringe  dangling from her

 purse.  Billy had stood up the crowd at the Hungry I that

 night, but she didn't seem to give a shit.  She had a date

 to meet Lenny Bruce in front of City Lights.  So who shows

 up?  Thats right, Ladies and Gentleman: Albert Goldman!

 

 Strange Fruit, don't you think?

  >>

 

That's a great story. He always knew when. Her song about Monday was pulled

from radio broadcasts because it was to have been causing too many suicides.

i can't remember the title. i don't think it was Strang Fruit.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:51:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      carolyn...

 

i read off the road not too long ago...what a book!  very moving!  and in

the liner notes i saw "also by Carolyn Cassady....Heart Beat."  So I went

on a mad search through my local libraries trying to locate it....doesn't

seem to be.  but there apparently was a movie made based on the book...

 

anyway, so i got the friendly librarian to inter-library loan the book for

me, found out the full title is "Heart Beat: My life with Jack and Neal"

(interesting, Jack & Neal, not Neal & Jack.....)  It'll probably take a

couple of months for me to get this book in my hands, though.  From what I

understand, this is another memoir of Carolyn & her two thugs....but

written before Off the Road.  So if she'd already written one, why'd she

write another account of the story?  anyone know?  anyone here read this

book?  I know, "read the book yourself & you'll figure it out yourself..."

but it's gonna be a few months before I get the book (and if it's from 1976

& can't be found in the library anymore I highly doubt the neighborhood

bookstore will have it).  I just want other people's opinions on the work,

if anyone has any....kind of wanting to go into the movie theatre with a

vague notion about the movie on the screen...

 

Diane.

 

--

Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

                                                  ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

                                                  Diane M. Homza

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:13:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: carolyn...

Comments: To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <199707161951.PAA07783@kanga.INS.CWRU.Edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

diane

from what i understand _heartbeat_ is simply an earlier draft of _off the

road_. it was turned into a movie (starring nick nolte as neal, believe it

or not...) and she then built & improved upon the book, beefing it up and

renaming it _off the road_. i dont know if you really HAVE to seek it out

if you've read _off the road_. can anyone else shine light on this?

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:51:13 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Heart Beat

 

Heart Beat was a greatly abridged or excerpted version of Carolyn's

later biography.  If memory serves me well she wasn't very pleased with

it.  It may have had something to do with the production of the movie but

I couldn't be sure of that without doing a little research.  If you've

read Off the Road, I think it would be a waste of time to read "Heart

Beat" except as historical curiosity or to study the text in relation to

the final version which I agree is a model work of its kind.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:10:49 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat

 

In a message dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:

 

<<  at Gable looking at Marilyn >>

Chopping wood warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to

freeze. Much easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird

portent. All the actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor

that they had hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make

the roping scenes.

CP

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:31:22 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Moccasins

 

just picked up "Last of the Moccasins" at Borders Books...looking forward to

this with great relish!!

 

on the way to the bookstore, i passed Warho's red painting of James Dean in a

gallery window.  anyone know the painting, and if so what the Chinese

characters mean?

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:34:20 -0500

Reply-To:     Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      t-shirts

Content-Type: text

 

Jeffrey,

I received my t-shirts yesterday, a day after Michael Nally's e-mail post

to the beat-l, and I agree with him.

I have had business dealings with you since the time of your very first

catalog, so I am more familiar than most people with the quality and

integrity of your enterprise. The printing on the shirt is certainly less

than ideal, but I cannot in all conscience allow you to absorb the costs

for my order.

I appreciate the honesty and rare business morality in offering the shirts

for free and in assuming the burden yourself.

One of the striking qualities of the beat-l group is its sense of community

(with a few glaring exceptions) and mutual support, reminiscent for me of

the late '60s. Your original role in this project was non-profit; from my

perspective, I cannot contribute to the venture's turning into a loss for

you.

Therefore, I am returning your refund check to you. Thanks though for the

gesture.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

7/16/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:52:42 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Info on Billie Holiday

 

In a message dated 97-07-16 13:38:05 EDT, you write:

 

<< I think what Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,

 ALTHOUGH A GREAT SINGER, IS NOT A POET/AUTHOR, OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT

 MATTER!  Calm down, people! *grin*

 

                          Sara Feustle

                     sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

 

 

 On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Shannon L. Stephens wrote:

 

 > On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:

 >

 > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 > >

 > > > In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:

 > > >

 > > > << Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat

 > > >  texts.  I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing

a

 > > >  presentation on Women beats.  I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately

the

 > > >  time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and

novels

 > > >  to find mention of her.  >>

 > > >

 > > > Oh fer Chrissake!

 > > > C. Plymell

 > >

 > > dear plymell:

 > > >

 > > what the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was

 > > there and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy

 > > response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair

 > > enough question. this list is, among other things, for such questions

and

 > > questings.

 > >

 > > if you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some

 > > constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a

 > > snotty repost from deep left field!!!!

 > >

 > > steve

 > >

 > > (who is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she

 > > mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a

 > > message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;

 > > they will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care

 > > about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her

 > > work for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list

 > > for views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a

 > > snotty snit.)

 > >

 > > s.s.

 > >

 >

 > Lusha... >>

Thanks Sahra, Actually, I was trying to challange Lusha some. I think Bob

Kaufman wd have known that. If not forgive me. It was I who wrote the

dastardly dated language, not Pam. She has too much class. And your items

were on the list of what first went through my head.

But I hope I'm a Johnson, not a shit, Anyway, I have posted Lusha, and

hopfully provided some constructive criticism, which is hard for me to do! I

would  work the beat association into the thesis from the beat's point of

view,  rather than to lump everything together for future readers. Seems to

be enough of that. Though I really don't know of many physical  time-space

connections(no pun) If there was one, I assume it was through Lenny Bruce, I

take from anthor list member's story.  There were  very few heavy users among

the beats, and any other connection would be hypothetical/abstract or

anectodal at best. i don't think they travelled in the same circles. i may be

wrong, though. This was turning into a brush fire, and now it's dwindling. oh

well.

Charley Falling Off Horse (my tribal name)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:06:45 -0400

Reply-To:     Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19970716050158.1aeff820@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> >

> Listen, Gore Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,

> and had been lovers, at least at times.  isn't it possible

> homosexuality played a role in their rift?

> 

> Mike Rice

> mrice@centuryinter.net

 

Cassady and *Ginsberg* were lovers...Kerouac doubtless was attracted to

Cassady (hell he wrote two books about him!)  But he was hetero in the

extreme from what I've read.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:31:14 -0400

Reply-To:     Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <970716110753_-1158306363@emout17.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

It is also worth pointing out that Memere Kerouac deliberately

interefered with Jack's relationships with his beat friends.  She

routinely opened and read Jack's letters before he got to see them and

apparently took to throwing out anything that came from Ginsberg, who she

thought was trying to turn Jack into a homosexual non-catholic, and Neal

for similar reasons (she'd found out about Allen and Neal affair from

reading the letters)

 

It is sad but Jack evidently let his mother control his life more or less

completely and filter much of what he knew of his old friends.  She

probably would have made up lies about Allen and Neal just to get Jack to

not communicate with them.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:28:25 -0700

Reply-To:     "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Moccasins

MIME-Version: 1.0

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the last words of Charles Plymell's autobiography (from the net):

 

        "Tomorrow I have to go to the unemployment office."

 

very nice CP.  very nice.  Filled in a lot of the blanks and gave a nice

perspective.  Am battling my own sycophant tendancies, by writing this.

Just wanted to publically say, "thanx" for writing all that down.  all

that down.

 

the words of Jello Biafra, whom I curse and praise, come to mind:

 

        "if you love your fun, die for it!" (from the song _Lard_)

 

oh, I never wanna be a poet, Douglas

 

 

"the map is not the territory"                  babu@electriciti.com

  (Alfred Korzybski)                    www.electriciti.com/babu/

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:32:45 -0400

Reply-To:     Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Paterson Falls and Bohemian Rises

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>       Well, I'd have to say I agree and disagree. A haiku is sort of like a

spontaneous orgasm, in that it is quick, unprompted, out of nowhere. You

know, when you're having a really good dream... *ahem* *grin*

>       Something such as Howl is like excellent sex, the whole show, naked,

mirrors on the ceiling, the passion building and building to the poit of

release.

>       Then there's works such as Mexico City Blues.... an all-night lovemaking

session involving multiple orgasms.........

>               Yours in depravity,

>                       Sara

> 

> 

> 

>At 02:29 PM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>Pete wrote:

>>> The second thing spun off from the first and doesn't pertain to posts.

>>> It's about poetry in general and about what I never liked about the

>>> Beats in general. If people can come here and dis my gods, well dammit

>>> I'm gonna give it back. I know there aren't any absolutes, but do others

>>> know that?

>> 

>>I may be one of those who dissed your gods (Ezra?) and I don't

>>mind you giving it back.  This is a pretty good paragraph:

>> 

>>> > >I realize this goes against the values of some Beat poets and their

>>> > >sycophants. Personally, I never went for the masturbatory approach to

>>> > >writing. Seems to mistake the product with the process, IMO. Sex isn't

>>> > >about cumming, it's about fucking; and writing isn't an explosion of

>>> > >words in a dionysian frenzy, it's all the thoughts around arranging

>>> > >those words, and living those ideas, making the song, singing it. Not

>>> > >the record, but the song. And even if masturbation is a good metaphor,

>>> > >then I say the poem is not the cum but the rubbing.

>> 

>>And I don't feel compelled to either agree or disagree.  You made

>>your point and I hear you.  I'd say the flip side is this: spontaneous

>>writing is an attempt to capture the joy of writing inside the piece

>>itself.  And joy is what is too often missing in the snootier,

>>stricter, more academic writing of our times.  Beat writing may

>>be cheap sex, but at least they got the joint jumpin' ... more

>>than I can say for Ezra ...

>> 

>>And I hope we can all feel free to dis each other's gods as much

>>as we want -- let's just not start dissing each other.  It's a

>>big difference.

>> 

>>------------------------------------------------------

>>           Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>> 

>>   Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

>>            (the beat literature web site)

>> 

>> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

>>             (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>> 

>>          ###################################

>> 

>>          "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

>>                    -- Bob Dylan

>>-----------------------------------------------------

>> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:28:21 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Johnson or SHIT ??  Charley is ...............

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

you R a Johnson ! ! !

 

The Committee

 

 

 

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

 

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> 

> In a message dated 97-07-16 13:38:05 EDT, you write:

> 

> << I think what Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,

>  ALTHOUGH A GREAT SINGER, IS NOT A POET/AUTHOR, OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT

>  MATTER!  Calm down, people! *grin*

> 

>                           Sara Feustle

>                      sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

> 

>  On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Shannon L. Stephens wrote:

> 

>  > On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:

>  >

>  > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>  > >

>  > > > In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:

>  > > >

>  > > > << Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat

>  > > >  texts.  I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing

> a

>  > > >  presentation on Women beats.  I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately

> the

>  > > >  time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and

> novels

>  > > >  to find mention of her.  >>

>  > > >

>  > > > Oh fer Chrissake!

>  > > > C. Plymell

>  > >

>  > > dear plymell:

>  > > >

>  > > what the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was

>  > > there and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy

>  > > response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair

>  > > enough question. this list is, among other things, for such questions

> and

>  > > questings.

>  > >

>  > > if you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some

>  > > constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a

>  > > snotty repost from deep left field!!!!

>  > >

>  > > steve

>  > >

>  > > (who is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she

>  > > mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a

>  > > message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;

>  > > they will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care

>  > > about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her

>  > > work for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list

>  > > for views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a

>  > > snotty snit.)

>  > >

>  > > s.s.

>  > >

>  >

>  > Lusha... >>

> Thanks Sahra, Actually, I was trying to challange Lusha some. I think Bob

> Kaufman wd have known that. If not forgive me. It was I who wrote the

> dastardly dated language, not Pam. She has too much class. And your items

> were on the list of what first went through my head.

> But I hope I'm a Johnson, not a shit, Anyway, I have posted Lusha, and

> hopfully provided some constructive criticism, which is hard for me to do! I

> would  work the beat association into the thesis from the beat's point of

> view,  rather than to lump everything together for future readers. Seems to

> be enough of that. Though I really don't know of many physical  time-space

> connections(no pun) If there was one, I assume it was through Lenny Bruce, I

> take from anthor list member's story.  There were  very few heavy users among

> the beats, and any other connection would be hypothetical/abstract or

> anectodal at best. i don't think they travelled in the same circles. i may be

> wrong, though. This was turning into a brush fire, and now it's dwindling. oh

> well.

> Charley Falling Off Horse (my tribal name)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:43:13 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      jk's character portrayl

MIME-Version: 1.0

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the recent thread of neal not liking the way that jack described him

in on the road, made me think that how did the other m.c. in jack's

books like the way they were described? in particular i would like to

know what gary synder thought of japhy ryder and the dharma bums.

thanx~randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:56:57 -0400

Reply-To:     Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>

In-Reply-To:  <33CD6BA1.995ECD76@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Who is this source?  someone who knew Jack?  I think if Jack had had any

major gay affairs, he'd have writtena bout them because he wrote about

almost every major experience he had in his life.

 

Ginsberg has been quoted has saying that Jack was not gay or bi, but that

when they were young and had just met, they *experimented* a little with

oral sex.  I dont think this makes Jack gay or bi, guess it depends on

interpretation.

 

Although if Jack *was* privately gay or bi, it might explain his outright

homophobia concerning Allen...whom he constantly ragged upon about his

homosexuality.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:51:49 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

 

In a message dated 97-07-16 19:07:06 EDT, you write:

 

<< Neal ever dressed formally

 enough to actually don spats.

 

 

  >>

I haven't seen the post yet. The dandiest I saw Neal was when he and Peter

Angel came to my collage show at the Batman gallery on Filmore, SF. They had

been to the Goldwater ' 64 convention at the cow palace and were wearing

straw hat jackets and canes. Looked and acted like yankee doodle dandies.

Neal had no wardrobe,  belongings in a cardbord box. Tapes of his past lives

from his meduim in Palo Alto, belts, a change of levis, white T-shirt, jocky

shorts, socks, penny loafers and an old sports coat. I tink this simplicity

was because he didn't want to waste time deciding what to wear. I was just

the opposite, leading him to say I had a problem with time since i would have

to fuss over what to wear. Oh yeah, his railroad pocket watch and a grocery

back of weed, a shoe box for cleaning the weed and a pocket full of pills.

CP

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:15:22 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Moccasins

 

Are you going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had with

having to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to read

literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I can't

understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's  relative published him-- even

without the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and  a few other

scraped up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd onetime

at an Eng, Dept staff meeting  that Joyce ruined American literature. The

meeting had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official" text for a

decade or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal religion,

politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic genius,

though for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that at a

dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.

CP

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:04:23 -0400

Reply-To:     Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: CVEditions@aol.com

In-Reply-To:  <970716002007_410349889@emout02.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Point taken...thanks.

 

Tracy

 

 

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 CVEditions@aol.com wrote:

 

> In a message dated 97-07-15 16:54:46 EDT, you write:

> 

> << and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with

>  carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?

> 

>  Tracy >>

> I'd guess that money was more important to N than J' sex with his wife,

> Unless, of course he was humping her whlie N was in prison.

> C Plymell

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:04:56 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: President's Sychophant Committe on NEA Funding

 

As they say down in Arkansaw..

"makes my ass wanna dip snuff"

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:15:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Moccasins and Joyce

Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> 

> Are you going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had

> with

> having to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to

> read

> literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I

> can't

> understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's  relative published him--

> even

> without the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and  a

> few other

> scraped up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd

> onetime

> at an Eng, Dept staff meeting  that Joyce ruined American literature.

> The

> meeting had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official" text

> for a

> decade or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal

> religion,

> politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic

> genius,

> though for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that

> at a

> dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each

> other.

> CP

 

Charles:

 

I just went down to the local library and checked out Ulysess.  I own,

but never really read Portrait of an Artist.  Good question?

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:17:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Robert Hass

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While in the library, I was looking through the Poetry section and saw

some books by Robert Hass.  A good friend of mine who built my house is

named Robert Hass.  So, I checked out Praise and Sun Under Wood.  I

might even read them.  Does anyone care to make a comment about Hass'

work either on line or back channel?

 

Thanks,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:30:19 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Moccasins & Ulysses

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> 

> Are you going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had with

> having to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to read

> literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I can't

> understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's  relative published him-- even

> without the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and  a few other

> scraped up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd onetime

> at an Eng, Dept staff meeting  that Joyce ruined American literature. The

> meeting had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official" text for a

> decade or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal religion,

> politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic genius,

> though for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that at a

> dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.

> CP

 

Imagine it was a pretty loud conversation between those two silent men.

 

I am begining Joyce's Ulysses.  July 16 seemed like a good day to begin

a book about June 16.

 

I sat on the crapper and read along until something about a jesuit

injection turned my head sideways, twisted me upside down, and burroughs

shook the shit out of me.

 

After i recovered i shaved and showered and headed to the filling

station where i started again and made it all the way to the old Woman's

entrance where i had a vision of Gaia that swallowed me whole.

 

Tomorrow is another day

and so i will once again brave the first chapter skimming up to the

entrance of the old Woman and moving forward like a blind mule on a

hillbilly holler.

 

Luckily i have a wonderful tour guide for the journey in Diane Carter

and many bodyguards including Doug and Sherri and it sounds as if Bentz

is leaning towards this book as well.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:45:14 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Thomas Wolfe and Kerouac and VOC

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A week or so ago, I pointed out in the food scene where Kerouac

acknowledeged that his work was derivative of Thomas Wolfe by throwing

Of Time and the River into the middle of the food sequences.  I know

that one of Wolfe's most famous pieces is the description of

Thanksgiving dinner in his Mother's boarding house.  I think it is in

Look Homeward Angel thought.

 

I kinda thought that this tacit acknowledgement of Wolfe would have

drawn some comments.  But it did not.  So, I went down to the library

(as you all know from the last two posts) and checked out Of Time and

the River.  I did find one passage that struck me as being a point of

reference:

 

>From Page 357 of Charles Scribner's Sons, 1935 (BTW, this version is 912

pages long)

 

        "What would you like to eat?" she now says meditatively. "How about a

nice thick steak," she said juicily, as she winked at him.  "I've got

the whole half of a fried chicken left over from last night, that you

can have if you come over!--Now it's up to you!" she cried out again in

that almost hard challenging tone, as if he had shown signs of

unwillingness or refusal.  "I'm not going to urge you, but you're

welcome to it if you want to come.--How about a big dish of string

beans--some mashed potatoes--some steamed corn, and asparagus!  How'd

you like some big wonderful sliced tomatoes with mayonnaise?--I've got a

big peach and apple cobbler in the oven--do you think that'd go good

smoking hot with a piece of butter and a hunk of American cheese?" she

said, winking at him and smacking her lips comically. "Would that hit

the spot? Hey?" she said, prodding him in the ribs with her big stiff

fingers and then saying in a hoarse, burlesque, and nasal tone, in

extravagant imitation of a girl they knew who had gone to New York, and

had come back talking with the knowing, cock-sure nasal toneof the New

Yorker.

 

        "Ah fine boys!" Helen said in this burlesque tone.  "Fine! Just like

they give you in New York!" she said.  Then turning away indifferently,

she went down the steps , and across the walk towards her husband's car,

calling back in an almost hard and agressive tone:

 

        "Well you can do exactly as you like!  No one is going to urge you to

come if you don't want to!"

 

It seems to me that the passage in VoC on page 10 echos this and the

theme of Jack and Thomas of being manipulated.

 

Anyway, I know there is more of Of Time and the River in VoC, and I

think it is in large part the inspiration of VoC.  But, I may be alone

here, as I may have been one of the few willing to read all 912 pages of

Of Time and the River.

 

Does anyone else have a comment on this connection?

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:59:36 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Moccasins

In-Reply-To:  <970716221304_1048044493@emout16.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 7:15 PM -0700 7/16/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

> I read or heard one time that at a

> dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.

 

don't know Beckett that well.  but maybe they met later, after the dinner,

for a little late night swimmin?  They took off all their clothes, jumped

in the river and let the sound of distant heart beats  .    .   .   reach

their eyeballs.

 

read Neal Cassidy's "letter to Jack Kerouac, September 10, 1950" tonight.

very good.  lots of eyeballs.  other writers that mess with da balls:

patti smith and tom verlaine (in _the night_).  Artaud?  Bruneul.  Dali.

oh, lots of writers.  Man Ray and his tick tock of metric destruction (the

cutout eye of his lover).

 

still thinking about the relationship of seeing to hearing.  Maybe people

like Joyce and Beckett realize that small talk is so useless.  Maybe a few

chosen glances, or silent approvals was enough for them to <<speak with one

another??

 

> CP = central pacific

 

dextrous pervert

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/                let the man come thru

stand up, and let the man come thru             let the man come thru

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:22:48 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: carolyn...

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Carolyn C isn't crazy about Heart Beat and even less about the movie

(which is awful).  Heart Beat was basically the more sensational parts

culled out of what she was doing in "Off the Road."  I was at a

screening of the movie in Eugene that Kesey and Babbs walked out of

after about five minutes.  Sissy Spacek's heart was in the right place,

and Nolte might have made a decent Neal, but it didn't happen.

 

James Stauffer

 

Diane M. Homza wrote:

> 

> i read off the road not too long ago...what a book!  very moving!  and in

> the liner notes i saw "also by Carolyn Cassady....Heart Beat."  So I went

> on a mad search through my local libraries trying to locate it....doesn't

> seem to be.  but there apparently was a movie made based on the book...

> 

> anyway, so i got the friendly librarian to inter-library loan the book for

> me, found out the full title is "Heart Beat: My life with Jack and Neal"

> (interesting, Jack & Neal, not Neal & Jack.....)  It'll probably take a

> couple of months for me to get this book in my hands, though.  From what I

> understand, this is another memoir of Carolyn & her two thugs....but

> written before Off the Road.  So if she'd already written one, why'd she

> write another account of the story?  anyone know?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:27:33 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat

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Charles,

 

Thanks for the memories.  "Misfits" is such a great movie.  Parts of it

were filmed on my ex-wife's uncles ranch.  Last movie for Gable,

Marilyn, and Monty Clift.  Great Arthur Miller screenplay and you can do

worse than John Huston as a director.  Some wonderful magnatism there.

Can't imagine modern Hollywood doing a movie with such wonderfully

broken down stars, Clift falling apart in front of your eyes, Marilyn

heavy and drugged, but radiant.  If the young un's want to get a feel

for Neal and Jack's world that is not a bad place to start.

 

James Stauffer

 

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> 

> In a message dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:

> 

> <<  at Gable looking at Marilyn >>

> Chopping wood warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to

> freeze. Much easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird

> portent. All the actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor

> that they had hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make

> the roping scenes.

> CP

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:04:23 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Moccasins

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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> Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> >

> > Are you going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had

> >with

> > having to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to

> > read

> > literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science

> >I

> > can't

> > understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's  relative published

> >him--

> > even

> > without the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and  a

> >few

> >other

> > scraped up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd

> > onetime

> > at an Eng, Dept staff meeting  that Joyce ruined American literature.

> > The

> > meeting had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official"

> >text

> > for a

> > decade or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal

> > religion,

> > politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic

> > genius,

> > though for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that

> > at a

> > dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each

> > other.

> > CP

>  In Richard Ellman's biography of Joyce, he writes, "Joyce sometimes went

 out with Samuel Beckett, of whom he wrote to his son, 'I think he has

 talent,' a compliment in which he rarely indulged...He made clear to

 Beckett his dislike of literary talk.  Once when they had listened

 silently to a group of intellectuals at a party, he commented, 'If only

 they'd talk about turnips!'"

 

 All of my life I have been compelled to study James Joyce, I can't

 leave Ulysses or Finnegans Wake alone, might be some sort of

 personality flaw on my part, definitely some kind of intellectual

 addiction; anyway I don't want to turn this into a beat list discussing

 Joyce, so for anyone who wants to read Ulysses, with the help of me as a

 guide and the comradeship of some fellow beat-list members, backchannel

 me.  We are on Chapter one this week and moving forward at a snail's

 pace.  Everyone still has to finish VOC as well.

 DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:13:08 -0400

Reply-To:     Tread37@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

 

******************************************************************************

********************

could some one please help me out here?  i am very curious to figure out the

whole sexual relations between jack, neal, and allen...

 

it is obviously quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual

relationship.

 

     but what about jack?  did either neal or allen or both have homosexual

relations with jack?

                   if not, how much did jack know about neal and allen?

anyone who knows anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!

 

satisfy my curiousity, darlin's,

 

jenn

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:15:58 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jenn Fedor wrote:

> 

> ******************************************************************************

> ********************

> could some one please help me out here?  i am very curious to figure out the

> whole sexual relations between jack, neal, and allen...

> 

> it is obviously quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual

> relationship.

> 

>      but what about jack?  did either neal or allen or both have homosexual

> relations with jack?

>                    if not, how much did jack know about neal and allen?

> anyone who knows anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!

> 

> satisfy my curiousity, darlin's,

> 

> jenn

 

To all on this thread,

 

i'm not certain what it is precisely, but something about this thread

makes my spine tingle a bit.

 

i've never been much of one for soap operatic visions and this current

string of who fucked who(m?) in whose bathroom with who watching seems

............... at least none of my fucking business.

 

perhaps it is the puritanical notions still implanted in those from the

land where Ike still rules our country and we pledge to the flag in the

morning on our way to the filling station - but at least out here on the

prairie such matters of intimacy seem something that be left sleeping

like the dogs.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:21:36 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      book spree

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Went on a net shopping spree a few weeks ago and the books are finally

starting to arrive -- got a bunch of choice stuff (more than i can afford,

for sure) and i'm totally thrilled:

 

_The Joyous Cosmology_, Alan Watts. Been looking for this book for _years_,

and I find 2 book dealers with good copies under $10! I bought both. Worth

it for the psychedelic b/w photos inside, but I suspect that hearing Watts

talk about his trips is going to be interesting too.

 

_Painting & Guns_ by William S. Burroughs; _Auto Biography_ by Robert

Creely. 2 nice Hanuman books, not bad for $1.99 each even if the covers are

worn. Read WSB's (actually I bought these in May, but still) and it's full

of lotsa sharp writing.

 

_Natural Enemies: Youth and the Clash of Generations_. A nice hardbound

book of short pieces on that counter-culture thing by all our favorites,

including Allen & Louis Ginsberg, Lionel Trilling, Norman Podhoretz, Henry

Miller, McLuhan, Fuller, Eisenhower & Kennedy, etc.

 

_Ideas and Integrities_, _Earth Inc._, Buckminster Fuller. The

to-be-expected high-output comprehensive essays.

 

_First Blues: Rags Ballads & Harmonium Songs 1971-74_, Ginsberg.

Autographed. Wow, I've been looking for a copy of this sucker since '93 and

didn't expect to get a signed one, but I did...

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:32:41 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: PS...

 

John:

 

My Burroughs visit was not too private to share, I just haven't gotten around

to completely recounting it, and all the circumstances that led up to it.

 The friend with whom I traveled to Lawrence and visited WSB has been

collaborating with me on a story of this milestone adventure, but it's

progressing very slowly in fits and starts, as we talk to and fax each other

to and from Ann Arbor, MI where I live and Philadelphia.  I have related some

of the events in a sporadic, fragmentary way through some posts on the list,

you may have run into some of them.  The lengthiest have been to Maya Gorton,

who has recently unsubscribed, and were sent only to her rather than to the

list as a whole.  Anyway, your message is another toggle to me to get going

and fully recount this experience for posterity.  My participation in this

List is turning out to be a great writing exercise for me, after a lifetime

of only occasional and painfully produced works, there has been a steady flow

since I signed on a few months ago, easily and without the self-consciousness

of "writing" where I feel the Giants looking over my shoulder as I stare at

the blank page/screen.  After working out this way, I'm hoping that my skills

and stamina will reach a point where I can tackle such projects as the WSB

story.  My goal is to write installments and send them regularly to the whole

list until the story is told.  Parallel with that and as material from which

to extract will be the continued collaborative effort, which may spill over

from a factual, straightforward approach and qualify as a Beat/Gonzo piece in

its own right.  Just writing at length about what I''m GOING to do and not

quite getting around to it, expending the energy I should be using to

accomplish it on describing its difficulty, is I think a time-honored method

and part of the process itself.

 

As for THE BLACK RIDER, I attended its premiere in the spring of 1990 in

Hamburg, Germany.  The friend who accompanied me to the WSB visit and his

wife were living there at the time, and this episode was part of a fairly

long trip through various parts of Europe (yet another potential story).

 There were rumors of an appearance by WSB, but we never spotted him.  From

what I recall, the production was partly in English and partly in German.

 Despite my hosts' attempts to translate for me, I could not completely

understand what was going on, and so my impression of it is compromised by

the distance in time and the partial language barrier.  I remember thinking

that it was a heavy-handed Teutonic fable, complete with hunters in the

forest, maidens, etc., put through a post-modern avant-garde wringer by

Burroughs, Waits and Wilson.  The sets and costumes were remeniscent of the

German Expressionist style.  Burroughs' voice came as a recording from

offstage, especially in the first act.  The statement that still resonates

the most with me is when he says "the first shot is always free" in his

not-quite-imitatable world-weary drawl.  I enjoyed and got a laugh out of

WSB's application of one of his maxims, distilled from junkys' street life,

to actual bullets and guns, an ominous foreshadowing of the Mephistopholian

bargain that the protagonist makes leading to his and others' doom.  WSB's

fetish for and historic misadventures with guns as much as syringes further

deepened the resonance of this statement.  Although his direct participation

in the production was very brief and occasional, his spirit seemed to be an

ingredient within and behind the scenes of the whole production.  So, with

the limitations I've cited above, my opinion is that it was interesting (how

could it not be with the involvement of these artists, especially WSB?), but

not particularly profound or riveting.  Even just a touch of Burroughsian

schtick greatly spiced it up.  I acquired the CD when it was released, and

enjoyed the "bones" piece sung/narrated by WSB.  I've never been much of a

Tom Waits fan despite his being considered something of a neo-Beat figure, my

exposure to him is limited and I'm not motivated to increase it now.  Do you

think it would be worth it?

 

At the beginning of our visit, when I was in a state of almost speechless

adrenal trauma, my friend mentioned that we had seen the premiere, as an

ice-breaker.  WSB's response was:  "I think Hamburg is the nicest city in

Germany, don't you agree?", without commenting on the production itself or

its importance, if any, to him.  We both unanimously and enthusiastically

agreed with his assessment of Hamburg.  There I go again, another fragment.

 

It must be very fun and interesting to teach a Beat course.  Do you have any

other poems or other writings such as the one you posted that led to our

first corresponding?  What are your favorite works, and what would you

suggest as the subject of an ongoing discussion, like the one going on

concerning Kerouac's VISIONS OF CODY?  Again, I hope you're finding this List

worthwhile to be involved in, as I am.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:45:08 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Homosexuality

 

I wouldn't say that Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual.   Seems to me

that they were both heterosexual guys who experimented occasionally with

homosexuality.  For Cassady, this might have been a result of his

spending  his adolescence in reform schools.  Unlike Ginsberg, though,

Cassady and Kerouac were primarily drawn to women.  I don't think I'd

refer to Cassady and Ginsberg as "lovers," either, though Ginsberg

certainly can be said to have loved Cassady in the sense that term

implies.  I doubt, however, that Cassady ever felt that kind of love.

Basically, Cassady, I think, wanted to be Allen's friend.  He saw Allen

as a mentor, looked up to him, and wanted to please him.  If that meant

sex once in a while, that was okay, at least early on in their

friendship.  All of this talk about whether someone is heterosexual or

homosexual doesn't mean very much in the end but it is interesting if

merely as gossip.   Martin Duberman's play "Visions of Kerouac" makes a

plausible case for Kerouac being a repressed homosexual.  The idea is

that Kerouac's repression of his homosexuality caused a lot of his pain.

It's not an idea I buy but I have to admit Duberman makes an

interesting case.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:04:37 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      cuputs

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Can we talk about cut-ups? I want to make sure that I understand the

technique.

 

You take a work, any work, that is written on paper. slice it down the

middle. reassemble the work so that the words and phrases are scrambled, and

retype. new meanings and hidden thoughts may emerge.

 

Is this the gist of the cut-up? I recall reading the story of Bill cutting a

book down the middle with an axe or similar instrument, reassembling and

there it was... but when you are re-typing the new work, can you insert

words and refine phrases, or must you simply transcribe what you see on the

paper? (I do know that what you see will be different every time, just like

tape transcriptions, but maybe this is another story.)

 

I want to know if there is a difference between scrambling all of the

_words_ in a text and scrambling all of its _characters_. I mean, I know

there is a _difference_ and each method will produce different words and a

different text (the first will usually contain the same words as the

original text with the exception of those words split by the cut), but are

both products of the "cut-up" technique, or does the cut-up require that

the same words generally be used (thus bringing all words used in the old

text along and into the new one, all the words and their

meanings/connotactions, as opposed to all the _characters_)? Or is one

simply going deeper than another? Discuss.

 

 

WHAT I AM GETTING AT: I have a computer program called "an" that has

potential literary value in pursuing further studies along this cut-up line.

 

"an" takes as its standard input any text -- pick a word, any word. The text

could be a book-length ASCII text file, or it could be a short word or

phrase. Then an takes this input and processes it, comparing every possible

permutation of characters with the system dictionary; every time a set of

valid words (ie words that appear in the system dictionary) is generated, it

outputs this to the standard output (screen or file), a line at a time. As

such, an is not just a simple anagram generator -- as its author originally

intended -- but a fast, accurate cybernetic cut-up machine. (I am also aware

of the excellent cutup program at <http://www.bigtable.com/cutup/>. This one

retains words, and even duplicates them to fill a page (or screen) -- yet

another method.)

 

The amount of memory required to generate anagrams is in exponential

relation to the length of the text, so using an to cut up texts of any

significant length must be done on a machine with more memory than mine has

(81MB RAM), but I suppose this is a temporal problem, as the relation to

computing power and its cost is also behaving exponentially according to

Moore's Law.

 

Should there be an interest, I will post results of my findings to the list.

 

 

m

 

<http://dsl.org/m/>  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

email stutz@dsl.org  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:31:59 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity

 

Dear Jenn:

 

Here's what I know from my studies of works by and about the Beats re:

"....sexual relations between Jack, Neal and Allen..." as you asked about in

your post:

 

Ginsberg was very infatuated with Neal, his "Adonis of Denver" as he

described him in HOWL.  It was apparently a one-way street, Neal was

straight.  But Neal's great regard for Ginsberg as a literary mentor/soul

mate, and also, perhaps, his hustler-exploitive instinct, led him to have sex

with Ginsberg.  Their relations were sporadic and led to AG's frustration, he

implored NC to join him in an ongoing relationship, while NC was only

accomodating his friend without really being into it.  Neal's marriage to

Carolyn only made matters more tense and frustrating, and in an infamous

episode recounted in her (highly recommended) memoir OFF THE ROAD, among

other sources, she discovered AG and her husband having sex together in their

bedroom, and promptly evicted AG.  Immediately in the wake of this, AG

skulked back to San Francisco and met Peter Orlovsky, who became his steady

partner through AG's death.  This helped to cool down AG's essentially

unrequited obsession for NC.  A poignant and very sad description of one of

the last encounters between AG and NC is given by AG in one of his poems (I

can't recall the name of it and don't have access to my collection right now,

I'll look it up later and get back to you if I find it).  A burned-out, soon

to be dead NC and AG are in bed together, and AG feels the cold, shaking NC.

 I think that AG's obsession for NC, like a grain of sand that becomes a

pearl, was an inspiration to AG's creativity even as it caused him pain and

frustration.  And as regards creative inspiration, AG helped NC as much as

anyone, including Kerouac, was able to, but NC's historic role in the Beat

saga will always be more as a subject and inspirer of others, especially AG &

JK, than as a creator in his own right.

 

As for JK, he was heterosexual like his alter ego NC, and the two of them

never had a sexual relationship as far as can be determined.  But their

relationship went far beyond a typical friendship, what some might argue

beyond sex into a realm of eroticising and mytholigizing that exceeds what

many outright sexual relationships have stirred.  AG managed to have sex

occasionally in their early days with JK (he seems to have had his way with

everyone), and again I think that JK's respect for AG's creative genius and

their affinity for each other on a soul-to-soul level carried the day.  I

once read ( I can't remember where) an anecdote from near the end of JK's

life that also shows the whimper coda of a collaboration that had begun with

such a bang, as with AG and NC above.  A drunken, passed-out JK awoke to find

AG and Peter Orlovsky blowing him.  "What are you doing, I'm not queer?!" he

asked, startled.  "We just want you to be happy, Jack", they said as they

looked up from what they were doing.  Nothing could cheer up poor JK by then.

 As to your question of how much JK knew about AG & NC, I recall from some of

the letters between JK & AG that JK was aware of it and tried to help AG sort

things out.  AG as usual wore his heartache on his sleeve, and shared it

intensely with JK and others.

 

The tangled, complex undertow of interrelations between the great Beat

figures is fascinating and, I think, essential to an understanding of their

lives and works.  Another important relationship was that between AG &

William S. Burroughs, especially WSB's failed attempt to "schlup" (completely

absorb and be absorbed by) AG in NYC in 1953.  But that's another story, and

not related to what you directly asked.  I hope that you find this

information helpful, and keep digging further into the Beats and their

collaborations, creative and otherwise.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:27:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Subject:      Poem...Poetic Forum

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haven't written in a while...can't keep up w/ flood of email...sorry...

 

thought i'd share a piece i've been working on, looking for poetic

community beautiful San Francisco rememberances...can't seem to find the

poets where i live:  deep south louisiana backwoods isolation...now that i

know there are great souls to talk to here (Charles, Pamela, Bill, etc.)

maybe i can find some sense of words words words loving...tell me what you

think:

 

Nineteen Ninety Six

 

And here's how it went:

 

Picking up cigarette rag,

        blonde stranger and best friend at concerts

        back to her room for night of drunk love - kissing laughing losing my

cherry ha ha ha -

                we made love while i dreamt of changing the world and

                        you dreamt of your boyfriend

You and him at Yancey and Sergio's tripping crazy (me drunk),

        talking about big brother government CIA and fixing the world through

machines...

Listening to you yell and scream and wail about sexism and

        how we're men and can't understand you woman.

First I listen to you and your first girlfriend lover,

        not turned on like I thought I'd be,

                angry because I thought you didn't love me,

                angry because you lied to me,

                angry because I didn't understand you.

Then roles reversed, you listen about my first boyfriend lover,

        crying because I didn't wanna tell you,

                not hearing me say that I didn't like it,

                not hearing me say that I was sorry I didn't tell you,

                not hearing me say that this was the end of the ride.

 

Think maybe I'll be fine in Denton.

 

Stumbling drunk up dormitory stairs,

        half bottle of tequila in me, sensitive poet type,

        winking at red headed angel,

                at IHOP 3AM wondering

                "what's wrong with Josh," almost passing out over

                        half-smoked cigarettes coffee cholesterol.

 

Making love wine-induced to strangers later to be friends

        in room inhabited by Buddha scripture scrolls and

        prophecies by Allen

                listening to eastern hymns of roommate I still don't know.

 

Handwriting read to me by modern-day Mexican saint

        in hallways of paint & sweat & marijuana & alcohol

                ticketed in park trespassing

                        1 down, lost to law

                        2 more down, lost to paranoia,

                                damn glad they didn't find no shit.

        Sitting in police station 6AM coming down from cloud,

                coming up with $300 to bail him out -

                        brother to my red-headed angel.

 

Dancing mad rhythms at first gay bar with brothers and

        crazy girlfriend moving LSD vibrations

        of cosmic soul thumping sexy house beats

                wondering where sleep honest love tonite?

 

No class, Spanish not worth it - decide to write instead,

        meditate instead, drink instead

                mad nights outside dorm yackety yacking about sex drugs

                        religion politics ya ya ya,

                parties at maniac houses flirting still attached -

                        nope, wait, broke up with her:  so, you wanna go out?

 

Single rose on car seat, dinner at fine Italian restaraunt

        with an end in a smill...no kiss no hold hands -

        just an angel to be close to, someone to hold.

 

 

 

closest i've ever gotten to bear all soul writing...still working...tell me

what you think.

 

Ryan Stonecipher

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:35:03 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity

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Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

 

 

> The tangled, complex undertow of interrelations between the great Beat

> figures is fascinating and, I think, essential to an understanding of their

> lives and works.

 

> Regards,

> 

> Arthur S. Nusbaum

 

Just as the weather changes overnight here in Kansas my mind twists

full-circle.  In the event that the interest in the intimate details is

along the lines suggested by Arthur here i would think it makes

sigificant sense to look into the matter.

 

Where the voyeurism overshadows the interest in the other aspects of the

lives of these folks i will remain prudishly Midwestern.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:52:37 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      To Derek Beaulieu RE:  Dada-cutup connection

 

Derek:

 

A belated response to your post to me re:  Dadaist ancestry of cutups.  It

serves me right for opining on this before having read EVERYTHING by and

about WSB & his collaborations with Gysin-  among the very few items I

haven't yet read is THE THIRD MIND, but I own it and will duly get to it and

see if a reference to dadaist forebears is there.  As soon as I read your

post, I remembered something else relevant to this issue-  In his very early

years (circa age 20, mid-1930's), BG was living in paris and directly

participating in the Surrealist movement, which really was a movement at that

time and place, dictated to by its self-appointed leader, Andre Breton,

through his SURREALIST MANIFESTO and ongoing domination over the movement and

its members.  BG was to have contributed to some major Surrealist exhibit,

but his works were removed at the insistence of Breton just before it opened,

and I think that ended BG's official involvement with the Surrealists.

 Apparently Breton was very temperamental and easy to displease, his wrath

also came down on Dali and others.  I've always wondered why the figures of

such a free-spirited, innovative movement allowed themselves initially to be

dominated and politicized by such a prima donna.

I should probably study him further, he must have had some sinister charisma

that held sway with people who were themselves such independent mavericks.

 

Anyway, since the Dadaists directly preceded and were in many cases the same

people who went on to become the Surrealists, BG was directly exposed to and

connected with Dada/Surrealism, and there MUST have therefore been an

influence, direct or indirect, conscious or not, on the cutups by these

movements, even if BG referred to the cutups as a discovery brought about by

a "happy accident".

 

Regards,

 

Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:05:31 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: To Derek Beaulieu RE:  Dada-cutup connection

Comments: To: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <970717105237_127888456@emout05.mail.aol.com>

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arthur

sure it was a happy accident - but so much of frottage (rubbings of

texture), collage (cut&paste) and cut-up is happy accident and

celebration of the nonscencical and unexpected juxtapositioning of images.

thanks for reminding me about gysin and the surrealist movemnt. i do

believe that you are right that he was associated by breton (and co) in

the 20's & 30's (i think) in paris. this i guess would be post dada, early

surrealist (if my timelist memeory serves). for a great biography on

breton check out _revolution of the mind_

        i think that the arguement that dada influenced wsb 7 bg is strong

, but where can it be taken? (ah theres the rub, right?) can its influence

be seen thru-out wsb's work?collage as a theme as well as a technique for

construction - so i was thinking: the obsession with the body and

graft,disease, etc - could it be seen as a sort of "biological cut-up"

reassembling, recutting - arriving at new conclusions and new reults by

reassembling the human form?

        hmmm

        derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:25:12 -0400

Reply-To:     Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@aol.com>

In-Reply-To:  <970717011307_-823358633@emout02.mail.aol.com>

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I guess there is or has been a tendency to want to clean up Jack

Kerouac's image for public consumption.  Jack was a fringe figure in

society during his life but predicatably, his writing has outlived him

and his myth/legend will grow larger as the years go by.

 

A while back in this group, it was pointed out that a new book about

Kerouac spoke bluntly about Jack's drug use.  Some in this group from

Lowell got really upset because Jack's been recast as this all-american

hometown hero and they dont want to think of Jack as a drug abuser.

 

Jack probably did have plenty of sex with both sexes, he was promiscious

and adventurous.  He also did heroin and speed for a number of years.

>From all I've read about Jack, there was a time in his life where he

wanted to try everything and do *everything* and go *everywhere*  Part of

the beat spirit.

 

I dont think he could have been the writer he was had he not been open to

these experiences.  It cana lso be argued though that maybe he lived too

much too soon, and wouldnt have died an alchoholic recluse if he felt any

other experiences were still out there.  At any rate, the question of

Jack's sexuality is not important anymore.  I dont see any need to dwell

on it.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:29:21 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Post Office

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  Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_.  Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z red

itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.

  _The Western Lands_ is neckst.

  Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer xists.

 

                                            James M.

Meye noz runz.  Eye doent.  ""

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:32:10 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970717111559.8780A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> Some in this group from Lowell got really upset because Jack's been recast

> as this all-american hometown hero and they dont want to think of Jack as

> a drug abuser.

 

And of course they're ignoring the fact that gross drug abuse has always

been an all-american hometown activity.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:14:11 -0500

Reply-To:     LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>

Subject:      John A. Gregorio

Comments: To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.

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Hi. Me again. Thadeus from Second Beat. The response from the magazine has

been great, thanks guys. But there is some confusion about one of the

orders. I need to get in contact with a Mr. John A. Gregorio to discuss his

order. If John or anyone who can get in touch with him is reading this,

e-mail me at <2ndbeat@telapex.com>

 

Thanks,

Thadeus D'Angelo, Camellia City Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:56:02 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      welcome to the ninties, again

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

in richards post awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he

said that there was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do

everything, be everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine

inch nails where at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe

everywhere i want to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want

to do something.. that matters!" i will get to less obvious

connection later.

i was talking with a friend who told me when she was in college, she

took a course about how the generations generally repeat themselves

every forty years inwhat they do and in general beliefs and feelings

toward society. this can be proven true. for example, in the forties

most everyone had a family and settled down. but not people neal

cassady and some other members of the post- war generation.

and in the eighties, again most people did the wife and kids thing,

but some people did not (your avid skater/ punk rocker). in the

fifties, some people started a family and some people became beatniks

and embraced (excuse me for using alduos huxley's title) a brave new

world. and now you may be thinking that because of the ninties, i may

be wrong. if you think that in the ninties jack doesn't ever happen

and never will- look undergroun for the now named "elctronictcia".

this style of music reminds me of the all-nite jazz shows that jack

and neal went to even more so because some people goto all-nite

techno music raves. so all i'm really saying is that we are

experiencing a renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to

stereotypical, i was not a conscious organism until the late

eighties) does any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:06:08 -0400

Reply-To:     Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject:      ecstatic bunny tracks leading to bleepy alien music

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

hello beetles....

another day, another twiddle of the thumbs, or perusal of my dated copies

of NME, or etc, as i wait for the msgs to download from this great list in

the sky, or at least across it...i scan through half or so, having to do

with one or a combo of 4 things: Joyce, VOC, the mysterious rift between

kerouac and cassady, or that person asking about Lady Day...(Hey Sara F,

i'll tell ya, your post concerning the sex/lit correllations really kicked

me in the tail though...)

Realised i haven't posted to this little list for, hm, close to 2 months

now. not very much like me, i must say. i suppose my motivation, in this

case lack-there-of, in not posting to the list, has to do mainly with all

the kerouac-related discussion. Never got into him. Bought a few of his

books and put them all down, even the infamous 'On The Road'...I suppose i

am strictly a Burroughs man, save for 'Howl' and 'Kaddish' which i loved,

and were my first forays into this beat world, along with B.Miles's AG

biography, which i found in a used bkshop for $2...why do i tell you all

this? i feel like writing. this breaks maybe a block that's been in place

longer than i care to admit. I recall B.Gargan's post concerning the

purposes of this list, but let's just say i left that msg next to an open

window and it rained. really hard. but just this once...i know, i know,

delete if you will.

I remember reading a OneTwo combo of Ulysses and Naked Lunch after a car

accident put me out of commission the year i was 17. i loved them both,

after not understanding a single word. for some reason the language in them

showed me there was more to words than just putting them together to create

scenarios of death and suicide, some may laugh at the irony of this, but,

loving life as i didn't, this showed me to love words as i could, their

viral infliction/infection, the expresssion blessed....

17 was a melodramatic year for me, it was. i took a pile of canvases

outside one early morning, around 4 or so, and burned them next to the very

suburban apartment building in which i shared a unit with my father.

plastic burning was in my nose for what seemed like days, but was probably

just hours....I threw away all my paint, didn't talk to people, drew pen

and ink sketches maybe, but mostly mutilated pics of ppl and things into

collages, around, about, and for words. i listened to angry music,'songs

about garbage disposals written by jackhammers' to loosely paraphrase DC...

I wrote one short story, about love through a sickness physical on one

side, mental on another, about what the world showed me love to be, which

is probably much different than what it has shown you all, as it is much

different for all of us, individually, because that's what i see it, love,

to be, though not nearly a tender thing for me, individual for all of us in

the end. i could be wrong. we could all be wrong... but i finished this

piece, and i read it out loud, at a reading, mostly among friends, and in a

small place, and i sat down, still holding the printed papers, and as my

ass hit the seat the thought hit my mind, softly, like a hammer wrapped in

cloth, that i would never write like that again. not because i couldn't,

but rather because i wouldn't, because, as someone we all know so well once

said, it was just too dangerous.

..and i haven't, that 17yr old day being near 6 years ago...I sit here

jacked into this computer, listening to the bleepy alien music that i love,

that i create, that i pretty much eat and breathe;  gives images of droves

of bunnies hopping across technicolor fields of grass, towards the music,

attracted by those unseen patterns that only some of us pick up on, the

disembodied voices, the snatches of songs from other places or times,

etc...staring at white text field remembering the last time i saw someone

that i had once dearly loved, she asked me if i could get her ecstasy,

because she had heard i knew all the dealers.

maybe at this point i blink back tears. maybe at this point i hit 'send' or

discard'. maybe at this point i remember i got her the x, putting it in her

palm that secret way, hoping to myself that it was an acceptable substitute

for the kind that her and i had shared for five years, and quickly giving

myself a mental kick for being so fucking stupid/sentimental...

...there are no words within a specific sphere. that sphere can be a good

or a bad place to be. me? i haven't figured it out yet...i'll let you know

when i do.

 

-z

 

Markup/Graphic Design Team

Internet Concepts LLC

zach@netconcepts.com

(608) 285 6600

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:05:07 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again

Comments: To: randy royal <randyr@southeast.net>

In-Reply-To:  <199707171707.NAA24963@mailhub.southeast.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, randy royal wrote:

 

> in richards post awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he

> said that there was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do

> everything, be everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine

> inch nails where at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe

> everywhere i want to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want

> to do something.. that matters!" i will get to less obvious

> connection later.

 

yup. a common theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's

addiction "wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one tries."

 

 

> so all i'm really saying is that we are

> experiencing a renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to

> stereotypical, i was not a conscious organism until the late

> eighties) does any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy

 

yeah agree totally. check the beat-l logs or the music parts of my web site

if "indie rock as renaissance" appeals to you.

 

m

 

<http://dsl.org/m/>  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

email stutz@dsl.org  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:32:08 -0400

Reply-To:     Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

In-Reply-To:  <199707171707.NAA24963@mailhub.southeast.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

those involved in underground (so-called, in my opinion) movements are

often reluctant to show/expose their roots.

at this point, electronica is the media's machine. to info-ate the masses,

'electronica' was a descriptive term used to define a style of electronic

music coming primarily out of the uk and the west coast, characterised by

slow, lazy breakbeats, bass tones and odd or experimental or hooky

synth lines and various computer noises etc...minimal sample use, heavily

utilised in the 'chill-out' rooms at raves in the early/mid 90s.

'electronica' is now the media's catch-all term for anything not

guitar-bass-singer-drum driven, anything usuing primarily electronic

equipment, a turntable, what have you...record companies want to make

'electronica' the next 'grunge'. look at The Prodigy, currently #1 album in

the country...wow cs are pushin' hard, huh? me, i think it's funny. record

companies, they don't realise the best 'electronica' is coming out of

bedrooms, put out on record labels like the one a friend of mine runs out

of his basement...but this is another discussion, sorry to all i've bored.

what i want to address is the comparing of the jazz parties to the raves.

although there is a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is

often overlooked in my opinion), the level of intellect at the old jazz

parties as oppsed to the raves is drastically different....jazz: you talk,

you listen to the music, you talk about the music, you talk about

whatever...operative word: talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the music.

you can't really talk because the music is too loud. you dance some more.

you 'rave' <- the use of this word has become somewhat of a joke amongst

those who actually do.

I love both of these gatherings. i throw jazz parties and i throw rave

parties, for different reasons.

cocktail/jazz parties when i want to get together, talk, discuss, etc with

good friends, strangers, what-have-you; raves when i want to dance my ass

off to the music i love while smacked out on e (sometimes), usually with

the same friends (heh)...there really is no intellectual level to raves,

unless you're up there djing, or organising, or involved with the show.

otherwise it is entertainment on an extremely base level...but who knows.

maybe that's all those jazz parties were to Jack and Neal, so the whole

discussion i've just had with myself is moot. but hey, it was still fun.

for me, if not for all 209 of you...heh.

the rennaissance? yeah sure, it's going on...it started with Kraftwerk (not

solely, but they've been cited many times as huge influence on electronic

music), and has been evolving ever since. those of us who make this kind of

music, all kinds actually, we'll take it further i'm sure...

but i'd like to see a bit more of a rennaissance in lit too...maybe it's

not 50 years behind anymore, but it sure is back there...

-z

(yeah i lost a bit a weight since my last post...)

 

Markup/Graphic Design Team

Internet Concepts LLC

zach@netconcepts.com

(608) 285 6600

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:39:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

Comments: To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

zach, being a part of the newest "alternative" music scene, i have to agree

with you on some points:  i do agree that genres of electronica like house

and trance are genres without very much intellectual backing...they are,

like you said, ways to dance your ass off, usually under the influence of

psychedelics like E and acid...but, with the new sound coming from the UK

in the form of jungle, drum 'n' bass, hardcore, whatever you wanna call it,

i can find some relations to jazz and more "academic" and "intellectual"

music forms (hardcore to a lesser extent than jungle)...take for instance

LTJ Bukem...don't know if you're familiar with him, but he's on the front

lines of the drum 'n' bass explosion outta the UK...jungle is based on jazz

samples and jazz breakbeats...as easy to chill out to, write to, and talk

above as any jazz...to me it takes someone as creative as a Charlie Parker

or John Coltrane to piece together various and sundry parts of a recording

and make it as beautiful as Bukem can...

 

The Prodigy?  they suck...in my opinion, anyway.

 

Ryan Stonecipher

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:47:14 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Bukowski

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Ryan,

  Herd a seadee kald "Bukowski", terned mee ontoo hiz ztuf.  Hee red sum ov

hiz poettree two uh rowdee crowd, ckepd thretnin themm, zgreat.  _Post

Office_ z thferst novl eiv red fizz.

 

                                                       James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:46:22 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again

 

i agree too... SF's had a huge renaissance of the 50's/60's head space.  JK

and AG are huge here right now, drug culture more prominent, tons of head

shops, bhuddist, metaphysical shops.... not that any of this ever disappears

completely from SF - it's part of the natural outlook for the City, thank

god...  but there has been a rather strong proliferation of such things here.

some of is is too gentrified and pseudo-cool...  but there's a lot more of the

real thing now than there was during the deathly conservative Reagan years.

Haight St. is much more heavily populated than it was then, too.

 

Last year deYoung Museum did a wonderful Beat Generation exhibit, MOMA

held/Yerba Buena Gardens held Beat symposia and poetry and, as well as prose,

readings have multiplied a good deal.

 

Michael, what's your URL?

 

ciao,

sherri

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Michael Stutz

Sent:   Thursday, July 17, 1997 10:05 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: welcome to the ninties, again

 

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, randy royal wrote:

 

> in richards post awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he

> said that there was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do

> everything, be everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine

> inch nails where at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe

> everywhere i want to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want

> to do something.. that matters!" i will get to less obvious

> connection later.

 

yup. a common theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's

addiction "wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one tries."

 

 

> so all i'm really saying is that we are

> experiencing a renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to

> stereotypical, i was not a conscious organism until the late

> eighties) does any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy

 

yeah agree totally. check the beat-l logs or the music parts of my web site

if "indie rock as renaissance" appeals to you.

 

m

 

<http://dsl.org/m/>  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

email stutz@dsl.org  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:51:03 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Michael Stutz wrote:

> 

> yup. a common theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's

> addiction "wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one tries."

> 

boy you hit a memory bank.

a gang of pranksters head to Lollapalllllooooooossssssaaaa outside

Chicago somewhere with a big EARTH thing on it.  Became symbolic later.

Decided to forego most of the chemical additives and just see where the

music took me.  The Butthole Surfers were ending as we walked in through

the crowds.  The sounds flow over me in my memory.  I recall dancing

like some kind of Druid prodigy until collapsing, blowing bubbles on the

lawn, another round of crazed ritual body movements, another collapse.

i lay on the ground not moving.  I stared at the sky searching for the

farthest star.  I remember a band named Jane's Addiction i'd never heard

of (i was just going along with the youngsters) coming on and beginning

to play music with such incredible FORCE.  I left.  I would not be

surprised if i was on that farthest star.  The next thing i remember the

show is over the crowds are filing away and my friends are circled

around me and my old old friend Pioneer is rubbing my shoulder saying

David are you Okay.  I turned my head toward him and smiled a smile that

said where i'd been.  He grinned.  We headed for the parking lot.  I'd

made a tape for the trip thank goodness cause the parking lot was a

disaster.  We sat in the minivan.  First Robert Johnson sang

Crossroads.  Second Eric Clapton sang Crossroads.  I smiled.  It was

nice to be home.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:03:03 -0400

Reply-To:     Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

Comments: To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@softdisk.com>

In-Reply-To:  <199707171743.MAA24686@server1.softdisk.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

ryan, i was comparing the events, not the music...here, i said:

 

>although there is a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is

>often overlooked in my opinion), >the level of intellect at the old jazz

>parties as opposed to the raves is drastically different....jazz: >you

>talk, you listen to the music, you talk about the music, you talk about

>whatever...operative word: >talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the

>music. you can't really talk because the music is too loud. you >dance

>some more. you 'rave' <- the use of this word has become somewhat of a

>joke amongst those >who actually do.

 

i realise the intellect behind electronic music. i make it and i spin it.

...as far as Bukem, he was at the House of Blues last weekend, in Chicago,

with Blame, et al...i myself missed it, but am very familiar with his

music. I spin drum'n'bass, as well as downtempo/leftfield (ninjas, mo'wax,

clear records, warp records, et al), and some breakbeat and house....i love

this stuff, and yeah prodigy is not great. at all. i had to come up with an

example some folks on the list may have actually heard of...But you're

right about d'n'b, easy to talk over, write and chill to, etc. the only

problem is the only all night d'n'b events i've heard of are either in NY,

the west coast, or the uk, all three far away from me. recently there have

been some hardstep/techstep jungle parties, but that stuff ain't for

writin' to...

It's my belief/opinion, that electronic music owes a great big thank you to

Burroughs and his tape experiments in the 60s, 70s...i listen to some of

those and hear roots.

 

babbling off topic once again...

 

-z

 

 

Markup/Graphic Design Team

Internet Concepts LLC

zach@netconcepts.com

(608) 285 6600

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:01:10 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Sexuality

 

ok, here's my two cents...

 

mostly i think the sexuality issue is unimportant except where it perhaps

gives insight to actions, thoughts, references in the books.

 

that being said, i think that what we have here in JK, perhaps NC, too, is a

true lover.  JK fell in love with NC.  doesn't really matter if they had sex

or not.  what matters is what they meant to each other.  their sexual

orientation, from what i can gather, was mainly het.  but way beyond that was

an ability to truly fall in love.  it was one of the things that really sent

me in OTR - this paean of love from one man to another... something men are

extremely reticent about, most of the time.  it blew me away and i thought it

was beautiful.  regardless of sexuality or any of the other dynamics in the

JK/NC/AG relationships... there was real love at one point.  i think that's a

rare and gorgeous thing and even rarer in print.

 

'nuff said.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:07:50 -0400

Reply-To:     Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject:      NBR...jane's addiction

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Jane'sAddiction are getting back together, starting a tour Oct. 25th in San

Francisco, for those innarested....

 

-z

 

Markup/Graphic Design Team

Internet Concepts LLC

zach@netconcepts.com

(608) 285 6600

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:11:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

Comments: To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> ryan, i was comparing the events, not the music

 

i was too, in a way...didn't get my thoughts across...you are right that

raves are mindless dance the night away affairs...in no way related to the

jazz sessions at Birdland or places like taht in the 50's...but, there's a

club here in town...a coffee house that has a dnb DJ that spins on

weekends...very cool...go, drink coffee, chat amongst yrselves...that i can

compare to those sessions...but i guess taht is the exception, not the

rule...

 

ryan.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:41:45 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

 

WSB be thanked - but John Cage is probably the heaviest influence in that

genre...

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Zach Hoon

Sent:   Thursday, July 17, 1997 11:03 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

 

ryan, i was comparing the events, not the music...here, i said:

 

>although there is a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is

>often overlooked in my opinion), >the level of intellect at the old jazz

>parties as opposed to the raves is drastically different....jazz: >you

>talk, you listen to the music, you talk about the music, you talk about

>whatever...operative word: >talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the

>music. you can't really talk because the music is too loud. you >dance

>some more. you 'rave' <- the use of this word has become somewhat of a

>joke amongst those >who actually do.

 

i realise the intellect behind electronic music. i make it and i spin it.

...as far as Bukem, he was at the House of Blues last weekend, in Chicago,

with Blame, et al...i myself missed it, but am very familiar with his

music. I spin drum'n'bass, as well as downtempo/leftfield (ninjas, mo'wax,

clear records, warp records, et al), and some breakbeat and house....i love

this stuff, and yeah prodigy is not great. at all. i had to come up with an

example some folks on the list may have actually heard of...But you're

right about d'n'b, easy to talk over, write and chill to, etc. the only

problem is the only all night d'n'b events i've heard of are either in NY,

the west coast, or the uk, all three far away from me. recently there have

been some hardstep/techstep jungle parties, but that stuff ain't for

writin' to...

It's my belief/opinion, that electronic music owes a great big thank you to

Burroughs and his tape experiments in the 60s, 70s...i listen to some of

those and hear roots.

 

babbling off topic once again...

 

-z

 

 

Markup/Graphic Design Team

Internet Concepts LLC

zach@netconcepts.com

(608) 285 6600

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:38:08 -0700

Reply-To:     "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: eye heart crane

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 05:29 AM 7/12/97 UT, you wrote:

>did City Lights, even tho da man already tole me they ain't  publishin it no

>more, just in case... checked out the used books section, too.

> 

>most beat stuff is hard to come by in used book stores round here cuz it's

>either not there cuz folks don't wanna part wid it or cuz it gets snatched up

>PDQ.  next thing is da library... haven't had a chance to do dat yet, man.

>tomorrow checkin at da great used bookstore a blcok from my apt.  maybe i'll

>get lucky, but only thing so far i've come up wid is nicoia's MemoryBabe.

> 

>ciao,

>sherri

> 

 

 

hrm, what book are you looking for? ;>

 

i live in the bay area (recent transplant) and when *i* meandered up

through china town, eating at the chinese resaturant right down the street

from city lights (did you get a peak at the african/antique gallery there,

incredible!) and walked through city lights hallowed rooms and up the

stairs to the poetry room and walked along touching the books ever so

gently with my fingertips, i just wanted to sit down and breathe in all

history and never leave. my ex-bf unfortunately was downstairs and doing

his 'you and your damn who-ha books', could never understand why i fall in

love with authors like buk and burroughs.

 

*sigh*

 

we really should have a bay area beat-l party at one point.

 

lisa

--

 

Lisa M. Rabey

Simunye Design

http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye

---------------------------------

words...1000's of words...wrapped together like wire

how easy it would be to hate you, and yet that is all

I can show you. Nothing lasts forever. -me

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:29:15 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Friendship

 

An interesting article:  Dardess, George. "The Delicate Dynamics of Friendship

: A Reconsideration of Kerouac's OTR."  American Literature, vol. 46 (1974), 20

0-206.  Reprinted in OTR: Text & Criticism (Viking).

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:28:31 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <33CE5B87.6024@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> Decided to forego most of the chemical additives and just see where the

> music took me.  The Butthole Surfers were ending as we walked in through

> the crowds.  The sounds flow over me in my memory.

 

summer of '91, first lolla 6 years ago (this year's one is in town tomorrow

i think). man that was a great show. i was puking when the butthole surfers

were on but by the time nin were getting off i was sober enough to stand up.

the next year's one was a mess but snuck in at 95 for sonic youth; they were

right on and it was one of the best shows i've ever seen.

 

sorry no beat content on this one.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:51:45 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

Comments: To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <v03007802aff3b822162f@[206.190.9.125]>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Zach Hoon wrote:

 

> but i'd like to see a bit more of a rennaissance in lit too...maybe it's

> not 50 years behind anymore, but it sure is back there...

 

i don't think so; i think it's just gotten very obscure. but definitely out

there -- this decade has produced innumerable zines (and even some good

ones) + a constant outpouring of lit on the net (newsgroups, lists, the web

etc). it's out there in a major way -- it's just no getting published by

madison avenue. fuck them anyway.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:04:01 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

Comments: To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <199707171743.MAA24686@server1.softdisk.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Ryan L. Stonecipher wrote:

 

> but, with the new sound coming from the UK

> in the form of jungle, drum 'n' bass, hardcore, whatever you wanna call it,

> i can find some relations to jazz and more "academic" and "intellectual"

> music forms (hardcore to a lesser extent than jungle)...

[snip]

> as easy to chill out to, write to, and talk above as any jazz...

 

this to me is where the slint/tortoise postrock scene is at. not even

neojazz, not at all, but they've got enough similarities here to be like

this. also the dronier side of indie rock: fsa, jessamine, labradford, etc

etc that whole huge terrastock drone rock scene. none of these to me are

like "modern jazz" or any of that, but in their own way each are fulfilling

certain things talked about here. i guess what i'm trying to say is that

what the hype machine is currently calling 'electronica' isn't the only new

music on the block...generically all of it can be called rock (but yeah this

is where the holy wars start between some of the dance music types vs. the

rock types), but generically... also a lot of early-mid 90s house music was

great to chill out to (still is).

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:00:40 -0400

Reply-To:     Tread37@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity

 

in response to david r,

 

i am curious about this only for the reason of better understanding all of

the work they wrote and the background behind it.  i am far from a voyeur,

and do not have any strange sexual obessions with the three, so you can

assauge your fears.

 

jenn

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:58:58 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Homosexuality

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As long as we're on the topic of sexuality for a moment, who is H.P. in

AG's poem, Transcription of Organ Music?

 

"I remember when I first got laid, H.P. graciously took my cherry.  I sat

on the docks of Provincetown, age 23, joyful, elevated in hope with the

Father, the door to the womb was open to admit me if I wished to enter."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:18:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: Post Office

Comments: To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

>   Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_.  Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z

red

> itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.

>   _The Western Lands_ is neckst.

>   Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer xists.

> 

>                                             James M.

> Meye noz runz.  Eye doent.  ""

 

        Is this supposed to be funny or cool?

 

        It's a disgrace to post this to a literary based list.

 

        -Bill

 

[  email: deadbeat@buffnet.net  |  web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat  ]

|"A fractal is by definition a set for which the Hausdorff Besicovitch

| dimension strictly exceeds the topological dimension."

|

|                      -- Mandelbrot, "The Fractal Geometry of Nature"

[---  ICQ UIN = 188335  --|--  PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:42:23 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      VOC Pathos

 

Pg 90, Penguin 1993 edition:

 

"America, the word, the sound is the sound of my unhappiness..... It is where

Cody Pomeray learned that people aren't good.... America made bones of a young

boy's face adn took dark paints and made hollows around his eyes, and made his

cheeks sink in pallid waste and grew furrows on a marble front...  America's a

lonely crockashit." (Underlining is mine - what poetry...)

 

here it is: Cody and America being interchangeable in a sense...  the demise

of America is the downfall of Cody and vice versa.  JK refers to the heart

reappearing when all the salesmen die... a direct comment on the effect of

materialism on the American dream and on the loss of youth, freedom,

happiness.  heartbreaking....

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:57:33 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat

Comments: To: CVEditions@aol.com

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:10 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:

> 

><<  at Gable looking at Marilyn >>

>Chopping wood warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to

>freeze. Much easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird

>portent. All the actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor

>that they had hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make

>the roping scenes.

>CP

> 

> 

Hey,

 

Load of crap.  Gabel died within a week after the movie wrapped in 1961.  Monroe

died in August, 1962, more than a year later, a suicide.  Eli Wallach is still

alive.  Thelma Ritter lived on until the late sixties.  John Huston, the

director,

died in the late 80s.  Arthur Miller, the screenwriter, still lives.  Sure we've

had an overdose of UFOs lately, but its no reason to go off half-cocked.  Oh,

yes, Monty Clift died of a heart attack in 1965.  The film was released in 1961.

Huston supposedly pushed Gable hard on the Mustang capture scenes, physically,

I mean, but that's all I remember from this film. Thelma Ritter was in The

Incident in 1967.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:00:00 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

 

In a message dated 97-07-17 11:45:14 EDT, you write:

 

<< . at least none of my fucking business. >>

Tempting. But I can't quite gosssip in cyberspace. No inuendos. And gossip

sometimes is sometimes physical contact in drag.

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:02:02 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: rwallner@CapAccess.org

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:06 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>> >

>> Listen, Gore Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,

>> and had been lovers, at least at times.  isn't it possible

>> homosexuality played a role in their rift?

>> 

>> Mike Rice

>> mrice@centuryinter.net

> 

>Cassady and *Ginsberg* were lovers...Kerouac doubtless was attracted to

>Cassady (hell he wrote two books about him!)  But he was hetero in the

>extreme from what I've read.

> 

> 

 

In his book Palimpsest, Vidal claims to have screwed Kerouac himself, in

the late 40s, after a night at the San Remo Gay Bar in NYC.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:05:41 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: cuputs

 

In a message dated 97-07-17 12:49:54 EDT, you write:

 

<<  but when you are re-typing the new work, can you insert

 words and refine phrases, or must you simply transcribe what you see on the

 paper? (I do know that what you see will be different every time, just like

 tape transcriptions, but maybe this is another story.)

  >>

 

The generic term used to be "Experimental Prose."  What if it works?

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:14:06 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

 

In a message dated 97-07-17 14:39:46 EDT, you write:

 

<<  Some in this group from

 Lowell got really upset because Jack's been recast as this all-american

 hometown hero and they dont want to think of Jack as a drug abuser. >>

 

Do they read the Newmoralityspeak York Times  up there too?

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:15:13 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:31 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>It is also worth pointing out that Memere Kerouac deliberately

>interefered with Jack's relationships with his beat friends.  She

>routinely opened and read Jack's letters before he got to see them and

>apparently took to throwing out anything that came from Ginsberg, who she

>thought was trying to turn Jack into a homosexual non-catholic, and Neal

>for similar reasons (she'd found out about Allen and Neal affair from

>reading the letters)

> 

>It is sad but Jack evidently let his mother control his life more or less

>completely and filter much of what he knew of his old friends.  She

>probably would have made up lies about Allen and Neal just to get Jack to

>not communicate with them.

> 

>RJW

> 

> 

When Kerouac died in Florida, he was living with a woman, who, in effect

was his surrogate mother, as his mother had died in Lowell some years

earlier.  An early 70s Esquire article on the last days of Jack makes it

clear Jack was very attached to his Mom.  These guys, Kerouac, Cassady

and Ginsburg, were all gay.  The reason it is so difficult for a lot of

people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.

Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the

relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack).  Read it again, its

a love story about these two.  Noone knew that except the insiders in

1957 when OTR was published.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:32:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: Tread37@aol.com

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

As I have written earlier, Vidal claims to have had Kerouac

after a night at the San Remo, a 40s NYC gay bar.  But I should

mention something I noticed about Vidal's autobio.  Every strong

story and assertion about aberrant or non mainstream  sexual

behavior, was invariably about someone who was already dead.  In

other words, the biographee could not complain from the grave.

 

For instance, Gore has Jacqui Bouvier getting her first piece in

Paris from a friend of Gore's.  Gore was not happy about his half-

sister's shunning of him after 1962.  Could he be telling rancid

tails about her to get even?  Sure he could have.

 

Still, what Gore said about all these people, even if they are dead,

could be interpreted as just Vidal holding his water until the

biographees were decently dead, before letting fly with what he knew.

Can you imagine what a job is going to be done on him once he is

dead?

 

Mike Rice

mrice@centuryinter.net

 

At 01:13 AM 7/17/97 -0400, you wrote:

>******************************************************************************

>********************

>could some one please help me out here?  i am very curious to figure out the

>whole sexual relations between jack, neal, and allen...

> 

>it is obviously quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual

>relationship.

> 

>     but what about jack?  did either neal or allen or both have homosexual

>relations with jack?

>                   if not, how much did jack know about neal and allen?

>anyone who knows anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!

> 

>satisfy my curiousity, darlin's,

> 

>jenn

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:49:30 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Post Office

In-Reply-To:  <199701180520.AAA12035@buffnet4.buffnet.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:18 PM -0700 7/17/97, Bill Philibin wrote:

 

 

> >   Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_.  Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z

> red

> > itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.

> >   _The Western Lands_ is neckst.

> >   Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer xists.

> >

> >                                             James M.

> > Meye noz runz.  Eye doent.  ""

> 

>         Is this supposed to be funny or cool?

> 

>         It's a disgrace to post this to a literary based list.

 

 

I suggest that it is not poetry either.  nope.  it's duende.  beyond

language.  and beyond control

 

 

> 

>         -Bill

 

 

((got a wild hare up my ass tonight, Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:45:42 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity

 

In a message dated 97-07-17 15:23:32 EDT, you write:

 

<< Where the voyeurism overshadows the interest in the other aspects of the

 lives of these folks i will remain prudishly Midwestern. >>

 

Don't they have no necromancers out there?

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:52:41 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19970718005617.1b17deca@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:57 PM -0700 7/17/97, Mike Rice wrote:

 

 

> Sure we've

> had an overdose of UFOs lately, but its no reason to go off half-cocked.

 

I'd like to see you prove it __wasn't__ aliens that killed em all.  and

them alive.  well, they be aliens too.

 

prove it.  rip it.

 

> Mike Rice

 

Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:06:02 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity

In-Reply-To:  <970718024542_-1426464465@emout10.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:45 PM -0700 7/17/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

 

> In a message dated 97-07-17 15:23:32 EDT, you write:

> 

> << Where the voyeurism overshadows the inter[net] in the other aspects of the

>  lives of these folks i will remain prudishly Midwestern. >>

> 

> Don't they have no necromancers out there?

 

Neuromancers, Charles.                  Neuromancers.  ((see R. Gibson

 

 

> C Plymell

 

Douglas

 

 

 

[[this joke is getting old fas  t

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:45:58 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: horseshit

 

 I insist it was horeshit.

C.P.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:48:26 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat

 

In a message dated 97-07-18 02:00:19 EDT, you write:

 

<< Load of crap. >>

Let's be accurate.  I insist it was horseshit!

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:55:12 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      tired dog tired haiku

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        O

        only

        4

        years

        span

        !

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo * a beet needs water *

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:12:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> ...These guys, Kerouac, Cassady

> and Ginsburg, were all gay.  The reason it is so difficult for a lot of

> people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.

> Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the

> relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack).  Read it again, its

> a love story about these two.  Noone knew that except the insiders in

> 1957 when OTR was published.

> 

> Mike Rice

 

not to step on any toes, here...but what is the obsession this list has

lately with Jack Kerouac's sexuality?  reading AG's biography now Dharma

Lion, so i'm picking up a lot of stuff i didn't know about these guys...JK

and NC were not gay...simply because three men (AG, JK, & NC) were very

close friends does not mean that they were homosexual (except, of course in

AG's case)...kerouac and cassady shared a strong bond in the way that two

brothers would - or a teacher and a student - or two REALLY GOOD FRIENDS!!!

 at least in the case of AG & Cassady, Neal gave himself to Allen out of a

sense of respect, not gay love...Cassady couldn't have been less interested

in men...NC and JK were very open with their sexuality and very

experimental...but that does not mean that they were gay...to my knowledge

Kerouac and Cassady never engaged in any kind of homosexual encounters...

 

ryan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:22:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      Lowell on Kerouac

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

>Some in this group from Lowell got really upset because Jack's been

recast

> as this all-american hometown hero and they dont want to think of

Jack as

> a drug abuser.

 

Who? When? Jack has not been been recast as an all-american hometown

hero. If anything, his substance abuse is still an active memory among

people in Lowell and a major obstacle to achieving the hometown

acceptance and recognition that a writer of his stature deserves. We

don't deny his substance abuse problems- we can't- but they are

certainly not something we care to celebrate or emphasize, and they

are not what he should be remembered for. Our objective is to

celebrate the art of Jack Kerouac and to promote the study and

enjoyment of his writing and his joyous approach to life. Come to

Lowell in October for the 10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! and

see for yourself how we want to think about Jack Kerouac.

 

Mark Hemenway

President, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:01:08 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Cody as America

 

Yes, Sheri, your comments right on target I think.  Cody is symbolic of

a failed American Dream crushed by materialism and what Allen Ginsberg

often referred to as "hard heartedness."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:38:01 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: horseshit

In-Reply-To:  <970718044557_444685482@emout19.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

<<running late for work>>

 

At 1:45 AM -0700 7/18/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

 

>  I insist it was horeshit.

 

Well, if you insist, then ok.

 

Norman Mailer in his early years picasso book, tells the story of how P got

in trouble with his family.  too many homosexual affairs, bad clothes and

attitude, not enough money brought in, etc. etc.  I've probably got the

reasons all wrong, now that I think about it.

 

Anyhow, to make amends with his family, Picasso goes to the local

whorehouse and sleeps with women that his father "knew".  It was a "family"

house.  And he probably made this visit over and over again until his

family was completely satisfied that Picasso had run all his wild hares out

of town.  Something like that.

 

The morale of the story involves returning to paris, smoking lots of hash,

and locking the girlfriend in the house (daily).  Ah, artists.

 

So ok.  It's horeshit.  but what are you gonna do with it now?  These

scatalogical poems/connotations always make me quesy.

 

 

 

> C.P.

 

Douglas

 

 

PS:  I might have been unsubscribed yesterday again at my work address.

More than likely the pipe was just clogged.  Eitherway, email me at

dkpenn@oees.com if you want to reach me during work hours M-F.

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/                let the man come thru

stand up, and let the man come thru             let the man come thru

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:26:17 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Phor BillaFillabin

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>   Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_.  Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z

>red

>> itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.

>>   _The Western Lands_ is neckst.

>>   Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer xists.

>> 

>>                                             James M.

>> Meye noz runz.  Eye doent.  ""

> 

>       Is this supposed to be funny or cool?

> 

>       It's a disgrace to post this to a literary based list.

> 

>       -Bill

 

 

  Phunny?  Kool?  Kneether.  Hear, hav sum either.  Eim jest hookd onn

fonicks mie phrend.

  Dizgraze?  Ure thjudg.  Itz ure verdicked buht mie zentence.

  Uor kritizm ov uh righting ztyl, anne xperement, iz duelly notid buht

duzITT ad enythin two "a literary based list"?

  Evr red "Old Angel Midnight" blak Bilely?  Reely enjoied wut uad too zae

abowt _Post Office_.

  Hears sum add vice ure onher, iff yaint diginitt, ch ch chainge thachannell.

 

"I wasn't born with enough middle fingers."-M.M.

 

                                                     James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:16:42 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

> Date:          Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:12:32 -0500

> Reply-to:      "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

> From:          "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

> Subject:       Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

> To:            BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

> > ...These guys, Kerouac, Cassady

> > and Ginsburg, were all gay.  The reason it is so difficult for a lot of

> > people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.

> > Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the

> > relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack).  Read it again, its

> > a love story about these two.  Noone knew that except the insiders in

> > 1957 when OTR was published.

> >

> > Mike Rice

> 

> not to step on any toes, here...but what is the obsession this list has

> lately with Jack Kerouac's sexuality?  reading AG's biography now Dharma

> Lion, so i'm picking up a lot of stuff i didn't know about these guys...JK

> and NC were not gay...simply because three men (AG, JK, & NC) were very

> close friends does not mean that they were homosexual (except, of course in

> AG's case)...kerouac and cassady shared a strong bond in the way that two

> brothers would - or a teacher and a student - or two REALLY GOOD FRIENDS!!!

>  at least in the case of AG & Cassady, Neal gave himself to Allen out of a

> sense of respect, not gay love...Cassady couldn't have been less interested

> in men...NC and JK were very open with their sexuality and very

> experimental...but that does not mean that they were gay...to my knowledge

> Kerouac and Cassady never engaged in any kind of homosexual encounters...

> 

> ryan

> 

> 

ryan- right on!

and mike- try not to look through a telescopebecause eventually your

just going to run into the Truth again

cya~randy

"the simplest answer is the correct one"

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:20:05 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Style

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Beatniks,

     You may have noticed my recent run in with a fellow by the name of Bill

Philbin (I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, Bill

has two l's right?).  Anyway, he backchanneled me to say that he planned to

set his e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he

received my reply.  Although this interpersonal situation doesn't bother me

that much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit that I

am bothered by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a

passing fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this

person again.  This person may be someone who has nothing to offer me or I

to him.  But he was left with the impression that I was trying to corrupt

the grammar of any youngsters on this list.  I really don't know what to

make of the whole scenario.  One side of me says, "Uh, write the way you

wanna write."  Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired of

this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)."  Any suggestions or

comments would be appreciated.

 

                                                James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:47:49 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Style

Comments: To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

james/jimmy/jim/jimbo

dont worry about all of that - "you can offend some of the people some of

the time,  but you cant offend everyone all of the time"

(or something like that). - lincoln said that

"ill let you be in my dream if i can be in yrs" - bob dylan said that.

yr style is yr style. personally verbal gymnastics pique my interest, just

depends on where you take it i suppose.

yrs

derek

 

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, James William Marshall wrote:

 

> 

> Beatniks,

>      You may have noticed my recent run in with a fellow by the name of Bill

> Philbin (I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, Bill

> has two l's right?).  Anyway, he backchanneled me to say that he planned to

> set his e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he

> received my reply.  Although this interpersonal situation doesn't bother me

> that much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit that I

> am bothered by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a

> passing fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this

> person again.  This person may be someone who has nothing to offer me or I

> to him.  But he was left with the impression that I was trying to corrupt

> the grammar of any youngsters on this list.  I really don't know what to

> make of the whole scenario.  One side of me says, "Uh, write the way you

> wanna write."  Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired of

> this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)."  Any suggestions or

> comments would be appreciated.

> 

>                                                 James M.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:08:54 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

 

Mike:

 

In your post from 97-07-18 05:47:14 EDT, you write:

 

"....(Kerouac's) mother had died in Lowell some years earlier."

 

JK's mother, Gabrielle ("Memere"), was alive and living with JK and his wife,

Stella when he died in Florida in 1969.  She was ill and a semi-invalid by

then, but she outlived JK and died in 1972.  I certainly agree that Stella

was a "surrogate mother" to JK, trying to prevent him from drinking himself

to death, unsuccessfully, keeping fans from bothering him, etc.  They had

known each other since his childhood in Lowell, and when he was near the end

of the line he married her to take care of him and his mother, more a nurse

than a wife.  This I think was the only circumstance under which JK would

ever marry, he had a lifelong M.O. of getting out of or avoiding marriages,

and denied that he was his daughter Jan's father.  He was very conflicted and

tormented in this regard, yearning for security and looking up to those he

saw as being or trying to be settled (including Neal Cassady as he struggled

to be a family man with Carolyn and his children), but unable to ever happily

settle down himself.  I don't agree that JK, NC and AG "were all gay", only

AG among them was completely gay, although even he experimented with

heterosexuality during his pre-HOWL youth.  JK and NC both had occasional gay

sex, though not with each other that can be verified, but were straight most

of the time as far as their outward behavior.  The famously intense

friendship between JK and NC, I think, went beyond the bounds of what can be

categorized as gay/straight into the realm of mytholigization, an emotional

and mutually empathetic bond that went beyond sexuality, although that may

have been a partial, latent component, an underlying inspiration to be read

between the lines.  While definitely an important factor in understanding the

lives and work of the key Beat figures, I don't think sexuality is the only

explaination for or significance of OTR or VOC, which immortalized the

relationship of JK & NC, and elevated it to a level of art and myth even as

it faithfully transcribed it down to earth.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:01:16 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      John Coltrane.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"You know, I want to be a force for real good. In other words, I know that

there are bad forces, forces put here that bring suffering to others and

misery to the world, but I want to be the force which is truly good."

-- John Coltrane (from an interview by Frank Kofsky)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:13:36 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      A Love Supreme

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"God breathes through us so completely...

so gently we hardly feel it...yet,

it is our everything.

Thought waves - heat waves -

all vibrations - all paths lead to God.

The universe has many wonders.

ELATION - ELEGANCE - EXALTATION -

All from God.

Thank you God. Amen

 

 

-John Coltrane

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:24:33 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Style

In-Reply-To:  <199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12.20 18/07/97 -0700, James William Marshall wrote:

>Beatniks,

>comments would be appreciated.

> 

>                                                James M.

> 

 

        Stifling heat

        the people turn the head

        to the right & to the left

        like walkin'pigeons

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:24:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Style

Comments: To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

i personally cannot believe that someone is denying one man the right to =

experimentation - though i guess he's not denying you that, just =

disagreeing with it...my incredulity arises from the fact that we are on =

a BEAT mailing list...would there have been a "beat generation" (i hate =

that term, personally) without experimentation and leping the bounds of =

established literature?  would there have been a "Howl" or "On the =

Road"?  i think not...James, go on experimenting man, it's just the =

kinda breath of fresh air i like...

 

ryan

 

-----Original Message-----

From:   James William Marshall [SMTP:dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET]

Sent:   Friday, 18 July, 1997 2:20 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Style

 

Beatniks,

     You may have noticed my recent run in with a fellow by the name of =

Bill

Philbin (I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, =

Bill

has two l's right?).  Anyway, he backchanneled me to say that he planned =

to

set his e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he

received my reply.  Although this interpersonal situation doesn't bother =

me

that much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit =

that I

am bothered by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a

passing fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this

person again.  This person may be someone who has nothing to offer me or =

I

to him.  But he was left with the impression that I was trying to =

corrupt

the grammar of any youngsters on this list.  I really don't know what to

make of the whole scenario.  One side of me says, "Uh, write the way you

wanna write."  Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired =

of

this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)."  Any suggestions =

or

comments would be appreciated.

 

                                                James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:49:32 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Thanks and Questions

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

  First, I'd like to thank those who supported my experimentation.

  Second, I'd like to acknowledge the one comment made by Bill Gargan, that

this list is about Burroughs, Kerouac and Ginsberg.  I'm not going to deny

that these guys were "beats" but who decided that the "beat movement" ended?

When did it end, why did it end, and what do we call WSB?  A postmodernist?

I don't believe that current "real literature" (whatever the hell that is

anyway) is all postmodern.  If there's a tension that's omnipresent on this

list it's the one I feel, and suspect that others feel, when somebody brings

up an author or artist or musician that the person believes is at least

"related" to the beat tradition.  Remember Lusha?  Anyway, my final question

stemming from Mr. Gargan's polite and righteous comment (seriously, no

sarcasm) is:  Aren't examples of techniques used by the beats relevant to

this list.  I know that reading other people's writing on this list is one

of the things that I like most about it.  There are no groups of writers,

influenced by the beats, who are willing to share their souls like I've

found on this list anywhere else.  I hope that no one feels afraid to offer

a glimpse of their style(s) every once and/in awhile.

 

                                                         James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:03:00 +0900

Reply-To:     rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rastous The Reviewer <rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>

Subject:      Seeking an independent review of "Kicks joy darkness"

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Morning, all.

 

I'm trying to find a review of KJD that isn't by one of the big music

sites/record companies... can anyone help?

 

Cheers,

 

Rastous

 

 

Terry Pratchett in RealAudio - 1330 GMT, July 25th, Thanks to Liquid Review

& 5UV

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm

 

For further information, and examples of my work, check out Liquid Review at:

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:27:59 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Style

In-Reply-To:  <199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:20 PM -0700 7/18/97, James William Marshall wrote:

 

> Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired of

> this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)."  Any suggestions or

> comments would be appreciated.

> 

 

yep, I see you've met God too.  Well, don't let it ruin yer day.  That's my

advice.  Have you been motivated to produce any other types of experiments

(as a result)??  Especially, <<ahem>> as they would relate to Burroughs,

Kerouac, or Ginsberg?

 

>                                                 James M.

 

dimple pox

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:01:20 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mike,

 

I have to throw my own vote with the others who find this amazingly

oversimple.  Jack and Neal certainly were not exclusively heterosexual,

but they were clearly principally straight men who had a great

friendship.  That does happen.  Not all American buddy stories have to

be seen as repressed faggotry.  And Vidal, as you note, is a terrible

witness anyway.  I am suprised he hasn't claimed to have slept with any

now dead popes.  It would suit his style.

 

I disagree with my friend David that this shouldn't be of interest to

us, mostly because the principals made a point of being public with

their behavior.

 

Mike Rice wrote:

 

  These guys, Kerouac, Cassady

> and Ginsburg, were all gay.  The reason it is so difficult for a lot of

> people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.

> Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the

> relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack).  Read it again, its

> a love story about these two.  Noone knew that except the insiders in

> 1957 when OTR was published.

> 

> Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:24:23 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      New Styles

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>yep, I see you've met God too.  Well, don't let it ruin yer day.  That's my

>advice.  Have you been motivated to produce any other types of experiments

>(as a result)??  Especially, <<ahem>> as they would relate to Burroughs,

>Kerouac, or Ginsberg?

> 

>dimple pox

 

Mr. Pox,

  I'm always experimenting but nothing new has arisen from this incident

(it's only served to reinforce my notion of how narrow-minded so many "gods"

are).

  I'm currently editing / rewriting a novel that's probably the most

conventional (anti-postmodern) piece that I've written.  It has some beat

related themes and elements:  a lot of Burroughs-like, organic metaphors, a

Kerouac-Cassady type relationship, a frantic, permadrunk race for peace,

etc...  I think this will be the manuscript that I'll start sending out once

I've made a bit more progress.  The few professors that I've shown it to

have encouraged me to.  I, of course, have my reservations; I just wish I

knew when the plane leaves.

 

                                                       James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:38:27 -0700

Reply-To:     dumo13@EROLS.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>

Subject:      Jack's Sexuality

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hello List!

 

Recently there's been a lot of discussion about Jack's sexuality.  The

bulk of it seems to be speculation, but a few have posted that it's

irrelevant (what his sexuality was).  I am glad that a discussion on his

sexuality has been brought up as it is the single most intriguing aspect

of Jack Kerouac to me.  I think that if you look at Jack from the

'beloved Jack' POV then you're gonna say, "Aw, hell, who cares if he was

gay or not, he was a great writer."  But I REALLY think there's more to

it.  You just can't say that.  In my eyes, Jack's sexuality was the very

catalist for everything.  No book makes it as clear as DESOLATION ANGELS

(which I have to say is my favorite JK novel).  Read sections about when

Allen and he were walking through the streets of MExico City and San Fran

and how paranoid he was to be publically thought of as a homosexual.  The

sexuality and religion were THE two factors in his life that tore Jack

apart.  It was almost like he could never be true to himself.  His strong

catholic upbringing forbidded him from embracing eastern faith.  In his

heart, I believe that Jack as a "BEAT" was a zen or whatever, but to his

family he had to remain catholic.  Jack as a beat didn't care if he was

gay or straight or whatever because it didn't matter.  Love and Kicks

mattered but to his mother and to his incredibly strong conscience, he

couldn't let himself go.  Just from reading Kerouac, it always seemed

like he was trying to live a lie.  That's a pretty strong statement, I

know.  He's one of my heros but it's true.  He could never have both

worlds and the anxiety it caused killed him.  Someone said something

about Jack's books being about running from something and toward it at

the same time and I couldn't have said it better myself.  Jack tried to

run from his upbringing when running was the only thing he had going for

him.  If he didn't have that conflict, he was nothing.  I believe he knew

that.  Just like with Neal.  Neal was kindof an abusive friend and it

seems the street was one-way most of the time as in Jack giving giving

giving, but the conflict was a great source of energy and inspiration.

ON THE ROAD is a romance!  It's a story of unrequited love.  Neal may

have been Jack's hero, but he was a dick.  Plain and simple.  My best

friend is the same way.  I love him, but he is a dick.  He's a dick to me

and just as in the end of OTR, sometimes you have to say 'enough'.  Jack

couldn't give up the struggle with sex and religion that easily.

 

Thanks.

Chris

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:42:51 -0600

Reply-To:     Manny <manny@HOME.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Manny <manny@HOME.NET>

Subject:      Just seeing if this works right  =)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hello list...

So far I'm enjoying the variety of topics discussed. =)

I'm just now seeing if my mail is working properly. Thank you.

                        Amanda

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:24:27 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: New Styles

In-Reply-To:  <199707190524.WAA17744@freya.van.hookup.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:24 PM -0700 7/18/97, James William Marshall wrote:

 

> I, of course, have my reservations; I just wish I

> knew when the plane leaves.

 

found this in the bathroom tonight <<ahem>>:

 

 

>> 

 

        Of his work he said: "I am not so much interested in documentation,

but would like to use the means of the steadily expanding language of my

medium to express my impressions of the individual."  (Arnold Newman)

 

>> 

 

kinda nice, huh?  Fits in nice with the joyce, girlfriend, surface, and

drug art issues I've been dealing with.  And besides, if you miss the plane

-- take the train.  of  <<ahem>> the train of thawout.

 

 

> 

>                                                        James M.

                                                        = junior mint

 

 

demi pairs

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:34:14 -0400

Reply-To:     Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Seeking an independent review of "Kicks joy darkness"

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19970719100300.006b3c00@light.iinet.net.au>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Rastous The Reviewer wrote:

 

> I'm trying to find a review of KJD that isn't by one of the big music

> sites/record companies... can anyone help?

> 

 

At the University of Virginia, there's an online copy of the recent issue

of the Journal of Post-Modernism or Post-Modern Studies or something like

that.  I believe it was someone who's on the list (can't remember who but

I know this is where I heard about it) did a fairly good review of the CD.

Go to the American Studies site.  The direct url (unless its

changed-current issues stay up only til it gets printed) is

http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/current.issue/review-5.597.html.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                      P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586          Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:29:08 -0700

Reply-To:     runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      female (patti smith)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

the title of the poem is "FEMALE" and is on page 44 of  SEVENTH HEAVEN. it

begins with a quote from GENET: "To escape from horror bury yourself in it."

 

female. feel male. Ever since I felt the need to

choose I'd choose male. I felt boy rythums when I

was in knee pants. So I stayed in pants.

I sobbed when I had to use the public ladies

room. My undergarments made me blush.

Every feminine gesture I affected from my mother

humiliated me.

 

I ran around with a pack of wolves. I puked on every

pinafore. Growing breasts was a nightmare. In agner

I cut off my hair and knelt glassy eyed before

god. I begged him to place me in my own barbaric race.

The male race. The race of my choice.

 

In answer he injected me with all the characteristics

of my gender. sultry. languid. wanton. dip into

summer skirts. go down with a narrow hipped boy

behind a bowling alley. bleed. come. fill my womb.

 

the misfit massacres the mustang pony just to feel

the soft rise of marilyn monroe against his chest.

 

bloated. pregnant. I crawl thru the sand. like a

lame dog. like a crab. pull my fat baby belly to

the sea. pure edge. pull my hair out by the roots.

roll and drag and claw like a bitch. like a bitch.

like a bitch.

 

67.april   copyright patti smith

 

 

-=-=-=-

props to phillip who typed all of this

cribbed from the patti-smith list

 

And yeah, who hasn't sucked some dick?

 

dickless

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:38:39 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

In-Reply-To:  <33D03C10.234F@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 21.01 18/07/97 -0700, James Stauffer writes:

[i snip for brevity]

> And Vidal, as you note, is a terrible

>witness anyway.  I am suprised he hasn't claimed to have slept with any

>now dead popes.  It would suit his style.

>...

 

james & amici beati,

last night, Vidal interviewed by domestic italian TV Rai Corporation

in Rome, about sexuality & arts & artists, asserted that's right alot

of artists (included writers ie. Proust) are/was not eterosex,

but this is have nothing to do with creativity, Vidal asserted

"sex is not related with creativity but anyone has a feminine-self",

he was moderate & amiable, (however not iconoclast),

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:04:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Jack's Sexuality

Comments: To: dumo13@EROLS.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Chris Dumond wrote:

> 

> Hello List!

> 

> Recently there's been a lot of discussion about Jack's sexuality.  The

> bulk of it seems to be speculation, but a few have posted that it's

> irrelevant (what his sexuality was).  I am glad that a discussion on

> his

> sexuality has been brought up as it is the single most intriguing

> aspect

> of Jack Kerouac to me.  I think that if you look at Jack from the

> 'beloved Jack' POV then you're gonna say, "Aw, hell, who cares if he

> was

> gay or not, he was a great writer."  But I REALLY think there's more

> to

> it.  You just can't say that.  In my eyes, Jack's sexuality was the

> very

> catalist for everything.  No book makes it as clear as DESOLATION

> ANGELS

> (which I have to say is my favorite JK novel).  Read sections about

> when

> Allen and he were walking through the streets of MExico City and San

> Fran

> and how paranoid he was to be publically thought of as a homosexual.

> The

> sexuality and religion were THE two factors in his life that tore Jack

> apart.  It was almost like he could never be true to himself.  His

> strong

> catholic upbringing forbidded him from embracing eastern faith.  In

> his

> heart, I believe that Jack as a "BEAT" was a zen or whatever, but to

> his

> family he had to remain catholic.  Jack as a beat didn't care if he

> was

> gay or straight or whatever because it didn't matter.  Love and Kicks

> mattered but to his mother and to his incredibly strong conscience, he

> couldn't let himself go.  Just from reading Kerouac, it always seemed

> like he was trying to live a lie.  That's a pretty strong statement, I

> know.  He's one of my heros but it's true.  He could never have both

> worlds and the anxiety it caused killed him.  Someone said something

> about Jack's books being about running from something and toward it at

> the same time and I couldn't have said it better myself.  Jack tried

> to

> run from his upbringing when running was the only thing he had going

> for

> him.  If he didn't have that conflict, he was nothing.  I believe he

> knew

> that.  Just like with Neal.  Neal was kindof an abusive friend and it

> seems the street was one-way most of the time as in Jack giving giving

> giving, but the conflict was a great source of energy and inspiration.

> ON THE ROAD is a romance!  It's a story of unrequited love.  Neal may

> have been Jack's hero, but he was a dick.  Plain and simple.  My best

> friend is the same way.  I love him, but he is a dick.  He's a dick to

> me

> and just as in the end of OTR, sometimes you have to say 'enough'.

> Jack

> couldn't give up the struggle with sex and religion that easily.

> 

> Thanks.

> Chris

 

Chris:

 

This may draw down howls upon my head, but there is something about male

nature that leads to these relationships.  The stereotypes are:

 

A woman will not maintain a relationship with a woman who "betrays" her.

 

A man will have a "fight" with the asshole, they then go drink a beer,

and end up better friends than before.

 

A woman, on the other hand, will put up with tons of crap from a man,

that she would never tolerate from another woman, because she knows she

can change him.

 

A man, will say outwardly that a woman is free to act as she cares, but

if she treats him poorly like his male friend did, he will never forgive

her, when he would his friend.  Further, he will become emotionally

cruel to her.

 

These are double standards that run through the sexes.  I do not intend

them to be RULES, just generalities that are the tendencies of behavior

by the two sexes.  I do not place a value on them and say one is better

than the other.  Just that the basic approach is different.

 

Last night I arrived home from work exhausted.  My wife came to me while

I was eating and reading the newspaper and wanted to talk.  Later when I

was rested, I sought her out to apologize and make myself available.

She would not listen and said everything had to be on MY TERMS. I tried

to point out to her that perhaps she could pick a better time than

interrupting my meal and when she knew I was tired.

 

We did not communicate.  Funny in a way.

 

Peace

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:47:39 -0400

Reply-To:     Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      JK Sexuality/Sexism

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <33D0D784.F9A8F732@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Actually, maybe Jack was always homosexual and spent his life denying

it.  This would explain his attitudes and actions throughout his life

towards women.  Which is to say that, bluntly speaking, Jack Kerouac was

as sexist as they come.  He had little use for women other than sleeping

with them.

 

Even though some of his best works were about women he was in love with

(i.e. Subterraneans, Maggie Cassidy) he basically ran from every

relationshiop he ever had with a female other than his mother, and later

his "surrogate mother" (last wife stella)  He left one of his wives to

raise a child, whom he knew full well was his daughter, in poverty.

Psychologically I dont think Jack could accept either long term

relationships with females or parenthood.  If he was really a repressed

homosexual, this would explain some of these attitudes.

 

I think Jack's sexist nature prevented him from being able to bond with

females the way he did with males.  He could live with women and have sex

with them, but it seems like he was incapable of having true intellectual

relationships with women.  His "intellectual" affairs were with Allen

Ginsberg, Neal Cassady, Lucien Carr .etc   Jack did, however, maintain a

long correspondence relationship with Carolyn Cassady...I've read they

were in contact long after Jack and Neal's friendship had ended.

 

It is ironic actually therefore that Jack Kerouac's work, the beat ethic and

the idea of "experiencing" life without regard to societal opinions or

barriers, has been an inspiration to generations of female writers.  In

Jack's lifetime, he was repressed for wanting to be his own person in

much the same way women were repressed for years from trying to have

their own lives.

 

Not only was Jack's daughter Jan a writer, but his first biographer and

cataloguer of his works was the author Ann Charters.  There are many many

female writers who took up pen because of Jack Kerouac.  Perhaps he was a

feminist and just never realized it?

 

 

Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:44:30 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Thanks and Questions

Comments: To: dv8@mail.netshop.net

 

In a message dated 97-07-19 10:59:47 EDT, you write:

 

<<   Remember Lusha?  Anyway, my final question

 stemming from Mr. Gargan's polite and righteous comment (seriously, no

 sarcasm) is:  Aren't examples of techniques used by the beats relevant to

 this list.  I know that reading other people's writing on this list is one

 of the things that I like most about it.  There are no groups of writers,

 influenced by the beats, who are willing to share their souls like I've

 found on this list anywhere else.  I hope that no one feels afraid to offer

 a glimpse of their style(s) every once and/in awhile.

  >>

Where's her writing?

CP

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:43:41 -0400

Reply-To:     Tread37@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism

 

reply to rwaller's description of JK being homosexual and having "little use

for women" other than sex:

 

i don't believe that jack was fully homosexual or sexist.  i think that jack

was in love with the human race.  he loved people, no matter what gender.  i

do think that he had some issues to deal with about women due to his mother,

but he just found it easier to relate intellectually to men.  this does not

mean he was sexist; it just means he did not find the right women (besides

carolyn) or let himself know them due to fear, not oppression.  for some

reason, he seemed to have this paranoia when it came to male/female

relationships, but i don't think this makes him homosexual.  i think, if

anything, he would be defined as a bisexual emotionally, simply because his

love was universal and had no gender limits.

 

sing

     dance

            be merry,

jenn

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 09:21:00 -0400

Reply-To:     Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Seeking an independent review of "Kicks joy darkness"

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Alex,

        Thanks very much Alex for pointing me/us to Robert Fox's review at

the University of Virginia of "kicks joy darkness". I recommend it to anyone

with an interest in the Beats / music / spoken word. Anyone who can bring up

"Jazz Canto" in passing has got my vote! Address below for those who haven't

been there yet.

 

http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/current.issue/review-5.597.html.

 

        An interesting cyber-journal for several reasons. Check their index

of other articles.

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:44:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      I give up on VOC

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Well, I have stuck with VOC as long as I could.  I got past the football

game and into the meeting of the girls at the house.  But, I just do not

have it in my heart to continue.  I am going to pick up Portrait of an

Artist as a Young Man and read Joyce for a while.

 

A couple of notes.  On the tapes.  What would it sound like if someone

recorded your (mine) conversations and transcribed them?  I can think of

very few that I would want to see in print.  So in reading that portion

of the book, you have to let reality creep in and dispel your

expectations.

 

Second, I picked up in my local library a book by Warren French, The San

Francisco Poetry Renaissance 1955-1960.  I have no idea on the quality

of the book.  But in the Forward, the author makes some comments that

harken back to our past discussion of Eliot, Ginsberg and Whitman:

 

"       It should be apparent that I agree with the early (1957) judgment of

William Hogan ... that HOWL was the "most significant long poem to be

published in this country since World War II."  It is taking its place

beside Walt Whitman's closely related "Song of Myself," which reached

the public first exactly a century earlier (1855), and T.S. Eliot's The

Waste Land, which though antipodal in many respects shares Ginsberg's

view of the tragic consequences of a materialistic, mechanized,

depersonalized culture and his hopes of transcending it.

 

"       Nothing else that the beats--of any poets since -- have written

matches Ginsberg's inspirational breakthrough, but like Leaves of Grass

and The Waste Land, Howl is not a monument that stands in splendid

isolation.  It generated the ferment that followed--the San Francisco

Poetry Renaissance--and it is to tell that story, which has often been

lost or ignored, that I have written this book."

 

I know nothing of the book or the author, but it seems to sum up what I

had read this list trying to say, and that is how Whitman, Eliot and

Ginsberg fit together and it seems to me that a possible conclusion is

that these three are the giants upon which true American poetry rests

for now.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:18:55 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Beat the NEA

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Bay Area Beat-L folks should check today's Sunday Examiner with an

excellent article on defunding the NEA by filmaker Bruce Conner.  It

doesn't yet appear on the Gate web page so I'll post the entire thing

tomorrow when it appears.  In essence Conner's stance echoes C.

Plymell's.

 

"I have a modes proposal.  The federal government should get out of the

arts entirely.  Go further than simply dropping an unpopular NEA.  No

more funding for public monuments, no more presidential portraits, no

more glamorous embellisment of the abattoirs of government . . .These

are invigorating times now that art has again been deemed dangerous and

the false art market boom of the 1980's, patterned after the classic

Pyramid Scheme Fraud, has cleared out a lot of the money-changers.  Art

is no longer a protected national park where artists can make a mess and

call the patrons dirty names while still expecting to be warmly

supported like difficult children that need more love than anyone can

give. . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:27:46 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Bay Area Beat-L Party

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Suggestions have been floated regarding a get together for SF Bay Area

Beat-L folks.

 

I am willing to volunteer my humble pad for such a party or listen to

suggestions for a public venue.  I know you're out there folks, Leon,

Sherri, Lisa, Attilla (if he's back), Jerry Cimino (if he's still

listening) and others whose locale I don't know or who have eluded my

beclouded Sunday morning brain.

 

Anyone interested please backchannel me.  Out of the area folks who

might be in SF in August let me know.  A public venue would work, but

someone's place, with a plugged in computer would allow cyberjamming in

the mode of the Plymell/Wilson reunion or the Lawrence Beat Hotel posts.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:06:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Warren French's book

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Well, while it is not well written, but then again I am not sure you can

have a heavily edited and coherent text describing poetry in SF from

1955-60 in 112 pages, I like this book.  French did his homework and a

substantial amount of it.  He is very sympathetic to the Beat poets, but

does not overtly take their side.

 

BTW, French retired from Indiana University in 1986.  He contributed

books on J.D. Salinger (1988) and Kerouac (1986) to the Twayne's United

States Authors Series.  When this book was published, 1991, he was

working on a 2 volume critical biography of John Steinbeck.

 

Anyway, he brought out a point that I believe, at least partially ties

back to the discussion on Eliot.  On page 39 he is discussing an article

JK wrote for The Chicago Review called "The Origions of Joy in Poetry"

and says that Jack, "saw the renaissance works as street poetry also,

but he emphasized their being 'a kind of new-old Zen Lunacy poetry ...

diametrically opposed to the Eliot shot.' Both these commentators

(Ferlinghetti and Kerouac) championed populist views of poetry; but the

difference between them [James, I feel you reading this with an

approving eye] suggests one reason why Ferlinghetti held himself as a

poet somewhat apart from the beats he sponsered.  His (Ferlinghetti's)

was essentially a sociopolitical view of poetry that emphasized the

words of the song, while Kerouac's introspective view focused on the

singer (he admitted, for example, that 'in spite of the dry rules

[Eliot] set down his poetry itself is sublime').  The prevalence of

Kerouac's view among other poets and young audiences is one reason the

beats, like the fauves, never became an organized movement seeking to

displace an Establishment and instead remained a group of outsiders

transiently banded together."

 

I feel this paragraph highlites several points.  One, is the difference

between Ferlinghetti and those such as Kerouac and Ginsburg.  He did not

write from the same place in his heart that Kerouac and Ginsburg did.

He is the lyrics only.  They are the singer.

 

Second, is that despite the items that some on this list complained of,

the RULES of Eliot's poetry, Kerouac recognized that the work itself is

sublime.  I have begun rereading The Waste Land.  If I have  a comment,

it will come later.  But, don't get lost in critizing Eliot for what he

stood for, his poetry is sublime.

 

Third, the true Beats never became an organized movement nor did they

displace the establishment.  They may have penetrated the fortress based

upon sheer brilliance, but did not topple the citadel.  It remains in

place today.

 

A good, but scholarly book.  I will make one more post on some comments

he had earlier in the book.  Sorry if I am doing your homework for you.

Charles, I hope you do not disapprove!

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:18:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Good beginning

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The beginning of the book on the SF Poetry Renaissance begins with some

good analogies.  The parallels are drawn to the Fauvist painters and

uses Kerouac and Matisse on page 4.

 

        "... Matisse quitting the 'frustrating atmosphere' of Adolphe

Bougureau's class... . Exactly fifty years later, Kerouac quit the

hothouse life of coach Lou Little's Columbia University football team

when he realized he wanted to be Beethoven instead of an athlete.  In

1898, Matisse was asked to leave Moreau's old studio ... .  A

half-century later, in 1948, Kerouac after completing a traditional

family historical romance influenced by the work of Thomas Wolfe, took

his first cross-country trip with Neal Cassady, which inspired him to

begin work on an entirely new kind of spontaneous prose: the first

versions of the novel that would subsequently be published as On The

Road and that would take its final form in Visions of Cody."

 

I quote this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody here

has tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works.  It is interesting to see

it tied historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the SAME

book.

 

The second is my insistance that VoC is a word painting.  This analysis

may not be original, but I only saw it on this reading and not the

earlier and more thorough reading I gave the book.  Here French ties the

whole of the Beat poetry to a painting movement as they are both "Wild

Beasts."

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:43:34 -0700

Reply-To:     runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Good beginning

In-Reply-To:  <33D2C6F3.6D78E417@scsn.net>

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At 7:18 PM -0700 7/20/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

 

 

> The second is my insistance that VoC is a word painting.  This analysis

> may not be original, but I only saw it on this reading and not the

> earlier and more thorough reading I gave the book.  Here French ties the

> whole of the Beat poetry to a painting movement as they are both "Wild

> Beasts."

 

"word painting" interesting.

 

Matisse was the old man of the fauve movement, wasn't he.  Fauve, 'wild

beasts' being the pejoritive label for a bunch of artists concerned with

outrageous color.  somewhat post-impressionism, post-seurat, right?

 

Matisse went on to develop color throughout his life.  Always apposed to

Picasso who was associated with "form".  Matisse is well know for his

patterns as well.  A quote of his always sticks in my craw, that he wanted

to make art while siting in a chair, looking out a window.  A somewhat

passive happenstance, approach, I've always thought.

 

and later in life, Matisse, from bed/wheelchair, made some f'in fantastic

cutout works of art.  he began with store bought paper, then progress along

to ordering papers of certain colors and having his assistants help him cut

out the shapes.  Icarus (1947?) is one of my favorite paintings.

 

"word painting" interesting.

 

 

> 

> Peace,

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> 

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:46:19 -0700

Reply-To:     Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      I'm back ...

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Seems pretty quiet around here ...

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:10:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: I'm back ...

Comments: To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

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Levi Asher wrote:

> 

> Seems pretty quiet around here ...

> 

> ------------------------------------------------------

> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

> |                                                    |

> |    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

> |     (3 years old and still running)                |

> |                                                    |

> |        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

> |          (a real book, like on paper)              |

> |             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

> |                                                    |

> |                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

> |                                                    |

> |                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

> |                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

> ------------------------------------------------------

Levi:

 

Glad to see you are back.  I was enjoying your comments when you left.

It seems to be TOO quite at the moment.  I am thinking that one of the

screwups last week still has email jammed up out there somewhere.

 

And I did get your site linked to a new page that I put up.  Sometime in

the near future, I am going to post a picture I took of Hal Norse.  I

want to clear it with Hal first.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:27:17 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Good beginning

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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> I quote this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody here

> has tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works.  It is interesting to see

> it tied historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the SAME

> book.

 

That goes back to what Ginsberg said in Allen Verbatum:

 

"But then Kerouac finished the book [OTR], which was not published for

almost a decade after it was finished, and was dissatisfied because he

had tied his mind down to fixing it in strictly chronological account.

He'd tied his mind down to chronology and so he was always halting his

sentences and stopping to go back to keep it chronological...So he

decided to write another book, which has never been published [this was

in 1971], his greatest book, called Visions of Cody, which deals with the

same main characters in about five hundred pages.  But called Visions of

Cody, meaning instead of doing it chronologically, do it in sequence, as

a recollection of the most beautiful, epiphanous moments.  Visionary

moments being the structure of the novel--in other words each section or

chapter being a specific epiphanous heartrending moment no matter where

it fell in time, and then going to the center of that moment, the

specific physical description of what was happening..."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:30:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Good beginning

Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

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Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> > R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> > I quote this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody

> here

> > has tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works.  It is interesting to

> see

> > it tied historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the

> SAME

> > book.

> 

> That goes back to what Ginsberg said in Allen Verbatum:

> 

> "But then Kerouac finished the book [OTR], which was not published for

> almost a decade after it was finished, and was dissatisfied because he

> had tied his mind down to fixing it in strictly chronological account.

> He'd tied his mind down to chronology and so he was always halting his

> sentences and stopping to go back to keep it chronological...So he

> decided to write another book, which has never been published [this

> was

> in 1971], his greatest book, called Visions of Cody, which deals with

> the

> same main characters in about five hundred pages.  But called Visions

> of

> Cody, meaning instead of doing it chronologically, do it in sequence,

> as

> a recollection of the most beautiful, epiphanous moments.  Visionary

> moments being the structure of the novel--in other words each section

> or

> chapter being a specific epiphanous heartrending moment no matter

> where

> it fell in time, and then going to the center of that moment, the

> specific physical description of what was happening..."

> DC

 

Diane:

 

You BEAT me to the idea that was festering in my mind.  In response to

Douglas' post about the painting aspect, I was going to post and say

that I believed that this is the essence of the book and what drove

Allen to get it published.  The fact that Allen saw and knew why and

what Jack wrote.  I find that I love finding the nuggets like Jack

talking about memories and Proust, but on the whole, it is a hard read

when I am doing it for an exercise.

 

The fact that I broke the spine and wore out the book on its first

reading testifies to the fashion in which I read it on first sitting.

Thanks for this post and the point, which I believe ties back to the

Impressionistic painting thought I have.  Allen saw this and that is why

he called it Jack's greatest work.  I find it more like Web and the Rock

and You Can't Go Home Again, an unfinished work.  I still feel that to

me, Dharma Bums is the best.

 

BUT, this is the most dangerous and adventuresome work.

 

Peace,

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:47:17 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Warren French's book

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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> I feel this paragraph highlites several points.  One, is the difference

> between Ferlinghetti and those such as Kerouac and Ginsburg.  He did

> not

> write from the same place in his heart that Kerouac and Ginsburg did.

> He is the lyrics only.  They are the singer.

> 

> Second, is that despite the items that some on this list complained of,

> the RULES of Eliot's poetry, Kerouac recognized that the work itself is

> sublime.  I have begun rereading The Waste Land.  If I have  a comment,

> it will come later.  But, don't get lost in critizing Eliot for what he

> stood for, his poetry is sublime.

 

I won't try to refute the point that Eliot's poetry is sublime.  Only to

point out that his more formal, rigid, views of art and poetry are in the

traditional sphere, and very much the kind of things beat writers

rebelled against as establishment.  Ginsberg can even be described as

sublime is some poems but overall it is the sublime cracked against the

hard reality of life.

 

 

> Third, the true Beats never became an organized movement nor did they

> displace the establishment.  They may have penetrated the fortress >

> based

> upon sheer brilliance, but did not topple the citadel.  It remains in

> place today.

> 

 

I disagree that the beats never became an organized movement.

Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs all formed the foundation of a new

direction in literature.  They never displaced establishment because the

very essence of beat writing is going beyond the fringes of what can be

called establishment.  The beats are/were always on the outside looking

in and convincing us that what was inside was not that true or great.  I

would also venture a guess that most of the writers/members on this list

are there because they also stand on the fringes of what is considered

normal by traditionalist views of literature and society.  The beats may

not have toppled society but they gave a voice which will always be heard

to those who are willing to listen.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:54:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Warren French's book

Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

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Diane Carter wrote:

<snip>

> I

> would also venture a guess that most of the writers/members on this

> list

> are there because they also stand on the fringes of what is considered

> normal by traditionalist views of literature and society.  The beats

> may

> not have toppled society but they gave a voice which will always be

> heard

> to those who are willing to listen.

> DC

 

Diane:

 

Sometimes I feel that being a lawyer puts me on the fringes of the

traditional world and on this one too.  It is weird being a lawyer and

maintaining the point of view I do.

 

Last night there was a neighborhood party here.  I found about 6 of the

100 or so people that I could relate to.  About 40 or so were "yuppies"

in all the worst sense of the word.  About 40 were of the 1950's point

of view and the other 20 or so seemed interesting, but I could only talk

to about 6.  There was a time when I wanted approval and would have

desired to "fit" in, but now that I have had to "grow up" some, I was

content to watch and it occured to me, that I would rather be from the

50's mind set than the Yuppies.  At least the 50's type people feel

secure in their selfs and the world, even though very reactionary.  The

Yuppies have no sense of self.

 

And I feel further on the fringes than ever before in my life.  But, I

wouldn't want to be any other place!

 

Good thoughts here.  I think you are on the east coast, so let's both

get some sleep. :-)

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:50:54 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      THE BLUES NEVER DIE  PART  I

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7/8/97:  LUTHER ALLISON / INTRODUCTION / INTERVIEW

 

 

 

INTRODUCTION:

 

For those of you good folks that are interested in exploring the blues

without turning in your rock collection, I am happy to say, that doing

so would be unnecessary. Luther Allison will satisfy your "rock fix" and

at the same time give you a heavy dose of the blues. I first met Luther

in the early '70's, on a stretch of railroad tracks separating Lake

Monona from the bay=97or smaller lake, in Madison, Wisconsin. A nice plac=

e

to catch "sunnies" and have long conversations with or without the fish.

For me, I can honestly say, that Luther Allison was a lifesaver. Here

was a man=97with a legendary background in the blues, playing and working

steady. I was playing Delta blues, and there wasn't much work for an

acoustic player=97nor the blues in general. The '70's was a hard decade

for working bluesmen and women alike. Luther was one of the few people

working steady. What followed was an education from watching this master

on a live set. I noticed early on that Luther could cross-over

boundaries and rock the house, and bring you back to "Planet Earth" if

that's what you wanted. His genius for reading an audience was=97and

is=97unsurpassed. From Luther, I learned to hone my craft and take chance=

s

by adding new licks. I even went as far as studying classical guitar and

jazz methods; incorporating them into the blues. But alas, the '70's

decade came to an end with Luther relocating to Europe, eventually

choosing St. Cloud, France, near Paris, as home base.  His fans

worldwide are a living testament to one of the biggest guns in the

blues: Mr. Luther Allison. It was during a brief tour in '94, that the

rumors of a "return" surfaced and that he was going to sign with the

prestigious Alligator Records=97one of the best labels in the world for m=

y

money and my personal favorite. Well, the rest is history. With the

release of "Soul Fixin' Man" in 1994, it became apparent; the man was

back and riding the wave. His appearance at the 1995, Chicago Blues

Festival, was one of the most powerful moments in blues history, when he

stepped out on the stage in front of a stagnating count of

thousands=97hundreds of thousands of cheering fans, I looked over at my

wife and said, quote: "It looks like Luther's boat has landed, or is it

a ship?" We agreed on "Ocean Liner." With the release of "Blue Streak"

that same year he took home five W.C. Handy Awards, ten Living Blues

Awards, and a 1995 Indie Award. And with the release of his latest from

Alligator: "Reckless"=97a must have disc, that is beyond words; all I can

say is this: The man is unstoppable.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:57:56 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      THE BLUES NEVER DIE  PART 2

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7/9/97:  LUTHER ALLISON / OUESTIONS / INTERVIEW

 

 

QUESTIONS:

 

 

1. Well Luther, the verdict is in=97I'm casting my ballot for "Best

Everything In The Blues"=97 if there's such a category=97 on "Reckless."

Man, you got to be happy with this; your latest from Alligator?=20

 

 

LUTHER:  "Man, I feel great=97and it's doing great. Everything started

with "Soul Fixin'.  I knew I had to do something big=97you know how the

business works, if I was going to make a Luther Allison statement, I

knew I had to come up with something that people would take notice, too.

With the release of "Blue Streak" I felt that my time had come.

 

RICHARD:  I was left speechless with each new release=97and Luther my

friend, you have arrived=97but hell, for me you were always on top. And

with "Reckless"=97 well, I can't see anybody coming close to topping that

one=97it's beautiful.

 

=20

2.  I know that you have a variety of guitars to choose from, but I

couldn't help but notice the "Gibson, Les Paul" on the cover of

"Reckless." Outside the duet "Playin' A losing Game"=97which incidentally=

,

was absolutely beautiful, did you record most of the other cuts on the

"Les Paul?" (Man, they have that certain sound=97real nice)

 

 

LUTHER:  No. I bought an original "Les Paul" in my neighborhood back in

Paris, from a shop=97one of many shops in the area. The guy that sold it

to me didn't tell me it had a broken neck. So I was pretty damn steamed

and took it back=97everybody in the neighborhood knew that it had a bad

neck. I told him how could you do this to me? Well, he said, what can I

do to make it up to you. And I said, you can go across the street and

buy me that 1960 reissue "Les Paul." Two weeks later, I got the Les from

him=97now that's a blues story!

 

RICHARD:  And you tore-up the 1995 Chicago Blues Fest=97with Mr. Les!=20

Man, that's some story=97that's what the blues is about. Sometimes, I

think it's all connected into one gigantic story=97and it's all those

real-life moments that make the blues a happening thing.

 

 

3.  Luther, in all honesty, I have never heard you sound more soulful

and on these cuts=97without sounding like a beer commercial=97I have too

say, "it doesn't get much better than this=97where do you go from here/or

what's next?

 

 

LUTHER:  Keep moving forward=97workin' and playin' so I can get some time

to hang with you and all my fishing buddies. Do you remember when I'd

drive to gigs with my pole, tackle, and bucket a worms; just in case I

passed by a lake on the way to a gig?

 

RICHARD:  Man, do I ever remember. I used to love driving to a gig and

always carried my fishin' stuff=97sometimes I'd forget the gig and all

hell would break loose! I only screwed-up a couple of times because the

fish were bitin'!

 

 

4.  I would love to see a Luther Allison, solo  unplugged session

someday, and I'm willing to bet it would be a winner. Have you ever

considered doing a project like that? (recording)

 

 

LUTHER:  Well, I've already done that. Did a CD back in Paris called:

"Hand Me Down My Moonshine" which has nothing to do with booze. It's

about the man in the moon. I assembled some guys and a real cool harp

player from the neighborhood. My son Bernard played a real bitchin'

slide=97sounded great!

 

RICHARD:  Man, now I got to hit Paris and find that CD. Here's a harp

story for you. When I was a kid living in Mpls and trying to be a real

"Bluesman," I'd get about fourteen dollars together and take the train

to Chicago. Eventually, make my way down to Maxwell Street=97hoping to se=

e

my heroes. So here comes Jr. Wells wearing a suit and real cool Fedora=97=

a

regular Al Capone hat. Hell, man I wanted to look just like Jr. Here I

am, about 16 yrs old=97all decked out and I jump in front of Jr., and say=

,

"Mr. Wells, could you please show me a few licks on my harp?"  He looks

at me real funny and says, "All I can Tell you is stick the harp in your

mouth and blow"=97and then he laughed like hell.=20

 

LUTHER:  (laughing)  "You tell Jr. the next time you see him that he

still owes me a lesson!"

 

 

5.  I have to praise your son, Bernard, whom I'd love to meet. To write

a song like: "Low Down And Dirty," and to hear him play and sing with

you on: "Playin' A Losing Game" convinced me, that here's a

bluesman=97something you don't see in the young very often=97you got to b=

e

one proud father?

 

 

LUTHER:  Oh man! I'm definitely proud. He's got all the stuff he needs

to make it all happen. On the duet, I played a Martin acoustic and he

played another hand-made acoustic that sounds real nice.

 

RICHARD:  I'm telling you, he knows his blues and has the necessary

soul=97man alive!  How old is he?

 

LUTHER:  He was born in '65, and that would make him 32 yrs old.

 

 

 

6.  Are you seeing  interest in learning more about the blues these days

with the younger kids=97especially in the black community=97(it's such a

rich heritage)?

 

 

LUTHER:  Well right now the blues is taking off and it feels real

good=97so the interest is there for anyone who wants to check it out.

 

RICHARD:  When I was a kid, I got my hands on an AM Transistor radio and

late at night I'd tune in a station: KAAY from Little Rock, Arkansas.

They had a late night show called (I think) Bleeker Street=97that's where

I first heard the greats like Elmore James, Freddie King, and of course

Muddy Waters (man, I wanted to be just like those guys). You were born

and raised in Arkansas, like Sonny Boy Williamson=97did you ever come int=

o

contact with some of the great bluesmen from the area?

 

LUTHER:  Yes=97definitely. When our family moved to Chicago, in 1951, you

couldn't help but come into contact with bluesmen=97I went to High School

for awhile with Muddy Waters son, and I'd hang at their house. My school

was/and is the blues.

 

RICHARD:  Well my friend, If I was president of some college, I'd give

you a "DOCTORATE OF BLUESOLOGY."=20

 

 

7.  One last question: any secret fishing spots you want to share?

 

(Much laughter)

 

LUTHER:  I think I'll pass on that one.

 

 

RICHARD:  Luther, after all these years, I finally caught up with you

and I'm damn happy that you're back=97and I mean back in more ways than

one!

=20

 

 

END /  INTERVIEW.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:16:31 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: THE BLUES NEVER DIE  PART 2

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Richard,

 

Thanks for posting the Luther Allison article and interview.

 

Anyone who likes blues should catch him while he's still playing some

small halls or before he goes back to Europe.  The CD's are great but

he's way better live.  Probably the best guitar player I have every

heard live.  Period.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:20:54 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      THE BLUES NEVER DIE  PART  3

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Hello Charles, James, Bentz, & Beat-L,

 

The interview with Luther Allison took place on 7/9/97. For me,

it was a real joy when Pulse Magazine asked me to do the interview.

Luther is an old friend and we go back about 20 or more years. On

7/11/97, he played in Mpls about 20 minutes from my place. We hadn't

seen each other in years, and for me, this was a very special time.

On the following Monday, the 14th, Alligator Records called and

informed me that Luther had canceled his world tour, and was

hospitalized in Madison, WI with inoperable brain cancer that had

spread from the lungs. He's hanging on and hoping for a remission

so he can finish his tour for the fans. And that's the Luther I know

and love--simply unstoppable.

 

Peace,

 

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:44:10 -0400

Reply-To:     Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "(Jerry Cimino)" <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: I'm back ...

 

Hi Levi, et al...

 

I'm back too... been gone for a while on business and then I caught a few

posts on a VoC thread and then server problems apparently knocked me off.

 Looks like the Beat-L is roaring along, though.  Will join in again soon.

 

 

Jerry Cimino

www.kerouac.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:14:24 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      What NEXT?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Good Morning,

 

It seems like the Visions of Cody reading thread is/has gone incredibly

well.  My question is that as people draw to a close with Cody, should

we jump into another book.  It seemed like a pretty good kind of thread

to have going.

 

In the event that we should jump into another book, what should it be?

Some had suggested something of an Anniversary Reading of On The Road.

Others suggested that we collectively work through one of the Burroughs'

works (suggestions there seem to vary as to which one).  There was more

talk of a debate about Doctor Sax vs. Last of the Mohicans Shoes :).

 

Since I'm tied up somewhat it would be much easier for me to read

something as far away from Ulysses as possible.  BUT - I'm not certain

which one that would be.

 

At any rate, i hope that the interest which the Visions of Cody thread

created might push to list towards having one thread going around a book

much of the time.  It seems that there are plenty of books out there.

It also seems that most of these books are ones in which re-reading

doesn't hurt a person too much.

 

This morning I dive sans life jacket into Chapter 2 of Ulysses after

much time tinkering with Stephen and realizing that more than one person

has referred to me as "a victims of free thought" or as "suffering from

general paralysis of the insane."  These days we have more complicated

diagnostic procedures but i'm not certain that the names do as much at

digging into what each person's particular chemical imbalance is all

about.

 

Stephen would have been pumped with Prozac after Chapter 1 that's for

certain.

 

Glad to have people coming back.  Glad to have people who've stayed so

long and people who have joined in between.  What am i rambling about

... a word to the wise, never try and type a kind letter in the morning

before having coffee.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:28:43 +0900

Reply-To:     rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rastous The Reviewer <rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>

Subject:      Versace's death & Drag Queens.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Isn't it nice that when something nasty happens... it's a drag queen who

gets the blame.

 

Well, bugger that.

 

The arsehole who whacked Versace was a complete prick - a taste for my

frocks doesn't make him a queen... murdering prick. Queen, no.

 

Anyone who knows where he is, call your local crime department officials -

look up your local white/yellow pages for details.

 

I miss my favourite designer,

 

Ms Alisha

 

 

Terry Pratchett in RealAudio - 1330 GMT, July 25th, Thanks to Liquid Review

& 5UV

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm

 

For further information, and examples of my work, check out Liquid Review at:

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:02:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: THE BLUES NEVER DIE  PART 2

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Richard,

> 

> Thanks for posting the Luther Allison article and interview.

> 

> Anyone who likes blues should catch him while he's still playing some

> small halls or before he goes back to Europe.  The CD's are great but

> he's way better live.  Probably the best guitar player I have every

> heard live.  Period.

> 

> James Stauffer

 

James:

 

On the Jimi Hendrix list someone has posted information indicating that

Luther Allison has been diagnosed with a life threatening disease.

They have posted an address for money to be sent to help Luther as his

insurance will not cover the treatment.  (I say he should send the bill

to the members of congress, the insurance industry and the AMA who claim

we don't need any form of National Health Care).  I will try to dig up

that information and post it if I can find it.

 

Take care,

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:07:42 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism

 

i couldn't agree with Jenn's last line more.

 

i originally had mixed feelings regarding how JK looked at and felt about

women.  oddly, though, i've never been able to convince myself he was sexist.

rather, i think the totally mixed up relationship with his mother and his

Catholic upbringing brought him to a place where his expectations of women

were unrealistic and that there was a bit of the Madonna atmosphere about

women for him.

 

On the "kicks joy darkness" cd an unpublished piece, sort of a short essay,

called "America's New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley" gives us a clue

that he had at least given thought to  women's social plight at the time

(1957).  He talks about how these three men represent a new kind of man whose

love is compassionate:

 

"Up to now the American Hero has always been on the defensive: he killed

Indians and villains and beat up his rivals and surled.  He has been

good-looking but never compassionate except at odd moments and only in stock

situations.  Now the new American hero, as represented by the trinity of James

Dean, Marlon Brando and Elvis Presley, is the image of compassion in itself.

And this makes him more beautiful than ever.  It is as though Christ and

Buddha were about to come again with masuline love for the woman at last.  All

gone are the barriers of asceticism and the barriers of ancient anti-womanism

that go deep into primitive religion...

 

... There is the need all around to be recognized and adored by some other

human being, the need all around for kindness, for the ideal of love which

does not exclude cruelty but is all-embracing, non-assertive, simply lovely.

Not necessarily the Dionysian orgy but the tender communion."

 

while i wouldn't call him a feminist, i think he was aware of the difficuties

for women at the time and that certain social mores and stigmas were unfair.

 

there is too much real feeling in JK for me to call him a sexist.  he may have

been messed up and not good at relationships - with both genders - (and,

obviously, behaved deplorably regarding his daughter and her mother), but i

have always felt that this was as a result of his personal demons, rather than

his outlook on women per se.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Jenn Fedor

Sent:   Sunday, July 20, 1997 12:43 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism

 

reply to rwaller's description of JK being homosexual and having "little use

for women" other than sex:

 

i don't believe that jack was fully homosexual or sexist.  i think that jack

was in love with the human race.  he loved people, no matter what gender.  i

do think that he had some issues to deal with about women due to his mother,

but he just found it easier to relate intellectually to men.  this does not

mean he was sexist; it just means he did not find the right women (besides

carolyn) or let himself know them due to fear, not oppression.  for some

reason, he seemed to have this paranoia when it came to male/female

relationships, but i don't think this makes him homosexual.  i think, if

anything, he would be defined as a bisexual emotionally, simply because his

love was universal and had no gender limits.

 

sing

     dance

            be merry,

jenn

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:04:36 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      In regards

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My friends in Beating, (sounds like a support group or something)

  I'd like to take part in the next group reading but I've got a bit of a

problem:  an inability to lay hands on the books that have been mentioned as

candidates so far.  This inability kept me from participating in the

_Visions of Cody_ project.  I'm currently reading WSB's _The Western Lands_

(which a friend had to lend to me).  Could we add this one to the list of

possibilities?  I wouldn't mind reading _Naked Lunch_ again either.  I think

we could get a lot of mileage out of that one.

  Or Kerouac:  _Visions of Gerard_, _The Subterraneans_, _The Dharma Bums_?

I have a few other Kerouac works but the ones I've listed are the only ones

I really have any interest in reading again presently.

  Anyway, whatever you guys decide is cool.

 

                                                   James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:04:07 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      New thread

 

"Some of the Dharma" is about to hit the bookstores.  How about making

this our new thread?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:07:21 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Kerouac and Women

 

Let's get real here.  Calling Kerouac a feminist is like calling Barry

Goldwater a liberal.  Even given gender attitudes of his time, Kerouac

fell short.  I've just finished reviewing "Some of the Dharma" and there

are some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there.  He certainly

wasn't a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was

usually happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.

He was a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:25:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: I give up on VOC

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <33D23254.E4034CF8@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> A couple of notes.  On the tapes.  What would it sound like if someone

> recorded your (mine) conversations and transcribed them?  I can think of

> very few that I would want to see in print.

 

I have done this. The results interested me, but in reading them I did

realize and understand that few (if any) others would hold the same interest

in reading them as a "work," ie. something that stood on its own (whatever

_that_ means) that any "Reader" could just jump in and get literarialized.

Which is why I'd asked that question earlier about fame & preconceived

notions upon approaching VOC.

 

I've seen a similar technique done quite well (though not nearly as lengthly

as Jack's, nor at all as personal) -- and that is in Bret Easton Ellis' _The

Rules of Attraction_. One of his less-known books, I think it's his best as

far as "literary" value. (It certainly was the one that affected _me_ the

most.) And I remember thinking, first time I read it _after_ having read

VOC, that Ellis no doubt was familiar with Kerouac and his techniques. I

think he consciously used Kerouac techniques or knowledge from observing

such in _...Attraction_, and probably did so at a lesser level in his other

works. Unlike, say, Ginsberg, Bret Easton Ellis is not exactly an accessible

figure, so it would be quite difficult to ask him.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:27:04 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

 

please re-read - i said i wouldn't call Kerouac a feminist.  unless, i typoed

- in which case let me re-state.  i wouldn't call him a feminist.

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Bill Gargan

Sent:   Monday, July 21, 1997 8:07 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Kerouac and Women

 

Let's get real here.  Calling Kerouac a feminist is like calling Barry

Goldwater a liberal.  Even given gender attitudes of his time, Kerouac

fell short.  I've just finished reviewing "Some of the Dharma" and there

are some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there.  He certainly

wasn't a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was

usually happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.

He was a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:43:36 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: New thread

Comments: To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997072111045396@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

bill

when does "some of the dharma" hit the streets? i am VERY excited by this

new release (isnt there another scheduled for release as well? "wake up"?

"what buddha teaches us"?) what have you thought of "some of the dharma"

so far?

yrs

derek

 

On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> 

> "Some of the Dharma" is about to hit the bookstores.  How about making

> this our new thread?

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:04:35 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

 

i think i must not have gotten my point across.

 

i really don't think JK was sexist.

 

i do believe that he had personal problems with women, and relationships in

general, but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be seen and

not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc.,  which were the

prevailing opinions i grew up with.

 

my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some

consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's.  and that he

realized that there was some unfairness for women.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Bill Gargan

Sent:   Monday, July 21, 1997 8:07 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Kerouac and Women

 

Let's get real here.  Calling Kerouac a feminist is like calling Barry

Goldwater a liberal.  Even given gender attitudes of his time, Kerouac

fell short.  I've just finished reviewing "Some of the Dharma" and there

are some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there.  He certainly

wasn't a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was

usually happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.

He was a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:13:01 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Sherri,

 

I'm inclined toward Bill's view here.  The "seen not heard" stance while

certainly one view during the 50's wasn't by any means the dominant

voice.  Compare JK here with someone like Snyder, or even Ginsberg.

Jack had a very hard time seeing real women.  They tend to appear as

unrealistic Madonna's or equally one dimensional sluts.  There is a

tendency toward mysogony in the JK, AG, WSB group that is hard to deal

with sometimes.

 

James Stauffer

 

Sherri wrote:

 . . but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be seen

and

> not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc.,  which were the

> prevailing opinions i grew up with.

> 

> my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some

> consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's.  and that he

> realized that there was some unfairness for women.

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:21:14 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

> Date:          Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:14:24 -0500

> Reply-to:      RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

> From:          RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

> Subject:       What NEXT?

> To:            BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

> Good Morning,

> 

> It seems like the Visions of Cody reading thread is/has gone incredibly

> well.  My question is that as people draw to a close with Cody, should

> we jump into another book.  It seemed like a pretty good kind of thread

> to have going.

> 

> In the event that we should jump into another book, what should it be?

> Some had suggested something of an Anniversary Reading of On The Road.

> Others suggested that we collectively work through one of the Burroughs'

> works (suggestions there seem to vary as to which one).  There was more

> talk of a debate about Doctor Sax vs. Last of the Mohicans Shoes :).

> 

> Since I'm tied up somewhat it would be much easier for me to read

> something as far away from Ulysses as possible.  BUT - I'm not certain

> which one that would be.

> 

> At any rate, i hope that the interest which the Visions of Cody thread

> created might push to list towards having one thread going around a book

> much of the time.  It seems that there are plenty of books out there.

> It also seems that most of these books are ones in which re-reading

> doesn't hurt a person too much.

> 

> This morning I dive sans life jacket into Chapter 2 of Ulysses after

> much time tinkering with Stephen and realizing that more than one person

> has referred to me as "a victims of free thought" or as "suffering from

> general paralysis of the insane."  These days we have more complicated

> diagnostic procedures but i'm not certain that the names do as much at

> digging into what each person's particular chemical imbalance is all

> about.

> 

> Stephen would have been pumped with Prozac after Chapter 1 that's for

> certain.

> 

> Glad to have people coming back.  Glad to have people who've stayed so

> long and people who have joined in between.  What am i rambling about

> ... a word to the wise, never try and type a kind letter in the morning

> before having coffee.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> 

> 

i would suggest One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest because it is a short

easy read and is just a great book. i geuss Ken KEsey would be a beat

but i always thought he was right between the line of being a beatnik

and a hippie. he still did write good. also, the main character in

OFOTCN always did remind me somewhat of Neal cassady. questions,

comments? Cya~randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:38:27 -0400

Reply-To:     GYENIS@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Eastward Journey, the end

 

Well I made it to the East Coast. I started from Eureka, California on June

21 with my ballet teacher and Mr. Hat. Also a yellow duck, a toy Hercules

that I found at Hoover Dam, and a copy of On The Road that my friend was

suppose to read but never did.

 

Last transmission was from Amarillo, Texas.

 

Corrected and updated information on Caddillac Ranch. It is at mile marker 64

on Route 40 (old route 66), get off at Hope Road. 203 steps from the road.

When I was there at 8 in the morning, there were 3 other cars there to see

Caddillac Ranch including a family from Germany. They were also driving cross

country (a couple with 2 kids).

 

>From there continued east stopping in Tyler, Texas. Looked for a used

bookstore but never found it.

 

Next stop was Narlens. Driving down Louisiana to catch Route 10, passed by an

sign for Tiger Gas that said they had tigers. So had to stop, and not only

did they have tigers (what the hell are tigers doing in Louisiana) but they

had two baby tigers as well. The baby cubs were 15 weeks old and chewing up a

plastic pool that they were suppose to be cooling off in.

 

Of course saw a bunch of dead armidillos.

 

Get to Narlens (ok, I'm so cool I say Narlens instead of New Orleans. So

what?) Narlens is one of my favorite cities. Got a Hotel room on Royal

Street, on block off Bourbon Street, and it was only $45 a night (with AAA

discount). Stayed there two nights. Bourbon street is three things, no four

things. Music, T shirts shops, sex shops, and Hurricanes.

 

Music was ok. Last year when I went I heard Brick House by the Commodores (I

actually like that song) so it was great. Lots of blues, R&B, some jazz, some

rock, and Karaoke (which I hate, but I don't know why because it sounds like

it should be fun). This year add DISCO. YES. DISCO. Quite a number of bars

were playing Disco. That's up with that?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:39:19 -0400

Reply-To:     GYENIS@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: "to have seen a specter isn't everything..."

 

In a message dated 97-07-14 12:45:57 EDT, dkpenn@OEES.COM (Penn, Douglas, K)

writes:

 

<<  good neighborhood for sex clubs, used

 book, record & clothing stores.  and automotive supply stores.

  >>

 

That is exactly the kind of place I'm looking for. Good automotive supply

stores.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:30:38 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Some of the Dharma

 

I think it's schedule for a September release date to be followed by the

"Selected Letters v.2", although this pub date may have been pushed up.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:45:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      FW: Jack and Neal

MIME-Version: 1.0

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----------

From:  Hemenway . Mark

Sent:  Monday, July 21, 1997 9:37 AM

To:  'LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'

Subject:  RE: Jack and Neal

Importance:  High

 

You might read <<Visions of Cody>> for Jack's book length views on his

relationship with Neal. I just read it again, not too long ago, and

don't remember any explicit references to a gay relationship. He

apparently saw him as a brother, a replacement for Gerard. The whole

brother thing... Gerard... etc is a gold mine for anyone interested in

psycho-biography. RE: Jack's sexual life, I recommend <<Memory Babe>>

by Gerry Nicosia as a source.

 

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:44:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      FW: Reading VOC

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----------

From:  Hemenway . Mark

Sent:  Monday, July 21, 1997 9:48 AM

To:  'LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'

Subject:  RE: Reading VOC

Importance:  High

 

I could never make any progress with Naked Lunch until I read an essay

that pointed out it was never meant to be read in a linear way- start

to finish- but was written as unrelated scenes. For those

obsessive-compulsive people like me having trouble making it through

VOC, you might try the same approach. It is a difficult book. Just dip

in and read a bit. No disrespect intended, but I found it to be great

bathroom reading. Bedtime reading might also work. I also ended

reading it backwards and enjoyed the hell out of it.

 

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:06:11 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

 

i would agree that AG & WSB did exhibit some mysoginistic feelings (although

my reading of both of them has a long way to go before i can be any real

judge).

 

i will reiterate that JK displayed unrealistic expectations of and ideals

about women. however, i do not think they were out of an idea that women were

second class citizens. i think they were based on his personal experiences.

 

as far as the predominant view of "women's place" in the 50's, i don't see how

anyone can say that it wasn't that women "should be seen and not heard", etc.

- that problem still exists, probably much more than one would think.  i was

born in '57 and spent all of my childhood and most of my teenage years

hearing, almost exclusively, that crock o' shit from most of the males i knew

- and fighting it mightily.  i ran into it in the work world and in college in

the 70's and early 80's. and even in liberal old Calif., it's still not

terribly unusual to run into it in a rather veiled way (and occasionally a

totally glaring way).   it may not have been the predominant opinion among

Beats, i have yet to form a solid opinion on that, but it does appear to be at

odds with the general sense of what Beat seems to mean...

 

i also think it is important to form an opinion regarding an author's social

outlook by placing what s/he has to say within the social context of the time.

 i know, with regard to myself, how my views have changed during my lifetime

due to exposure to various ideas and cultures and although my natural outlook

has always been that of a feminist, my opinions have been molded and re-shaped

by experience and learning.  i, therefore, would hate to have my attitudes be

judged at any one point in time without the social climate of the time as a

backdrop.

 

all that being said, Bill & James, i would like to thank you both for what i

infer to be an enlightened, progressive and caring attitude toward women.

ciao,

sherri

 

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

Sent:   Monday, July 21, 1997 11:13 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Kerouac and Women

 

Sherri,

 

I'm inclined toward Bill's view here.  The "seen not heard" stance while

certainly one view during the 50's wasn't by any means the dominant

voice.  Compare JK here with someone like Snyder, or even Ginsberg.

Jack had a very hard time seeing real women.  They tend to appear as

unrealistic Madonna's or equally one dimensional sluts.  There is a

tendency toward mysogony in the JK, AG, WSB group that is hard to deal

with sometimes.

 

James Stauffer

 

Sherri wrote:

 . . but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be seen

and

> not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc.,  which were the

> prevailing opinions i grew up with.

> 

> my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some

> consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's.  and that he

> realized that there was some unfairness for women.

> 

> ciao,

> sherri

> 

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:49:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Some of the Dharma

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At 03:30 PM 7/21/97 EDT, you wrote:

>I think it's schedule for a September release date to be followed by the

>"Selected Letters v.2", although this pub date may have been pushed up.

> 

It will be released on September 5th along with ON the Road 40th Anniversary

edition. It has 432 pages filled with various journal entries, letter

fragments, prayers, literary essays (nice one on Dostoyevsky), musings,

thoughts, dreams, poems, and every one in a typeset facsimile exactly as

Jack wrote them. The book will mark a significant addition to the Kerouac

canon and just plain makes compelling reading. Ignore Kircus Reviews

negative review on this book which is written by a feminist critic who is

less than fond of Kerouac's misogynistic turns i.e. "Pretty women make

graves. Fuck you all."

     Selected Letters II is now expected next fall because Ann Charters had

scholarly obligations to fulfill (editing a textbook or some stuff like that).

Read this Summer's Kerouac Quarterly for more info. . .40 pages for $2.95.

 

 Thanks, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly.. . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:47:24 -0400

Reply-To:     Jcarsonm@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Murphy <Jcarsonm@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

 

The subject WHAT NEXT is about discovery--we all have more than one ratty

copy of Ulysses  & Eliot & Proust & Gravity's Rainbow.  They'll always be

there.  It would be fun again to discover again Lonesome Traveler.  Try it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:26:28 -0700

Reply-To:     Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Catch-ups

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Thanks for the catch-ups guys ... I've actually

been following for about 3 days.

 

I mainly came back on because I got the BEAT-L

shirt from Jeffrey Weinberg with that nice and

very generous letter, and I thought "how can I

go around wearing a BEAT-L shirt -- a *free*

BEAT-L shirt in fact -- if I'm not on BEAT-L?"

Thanks Jeffrey ...

 

And, to chime in on the threads ...

 

1) I just can't see that Kerouac was gay, though I've

heard this argument before.  Yes, he did apparently

have sex with Gore Vidal, collect blowjobs from Allen

Ginsberg, etc., but I believe this was all in the spirit

of openness to experience and all that.  After all,

he lived a pretty wild life -- he did a *lot* of

things.  But primarily he was interested in exploring

the depths of his personality through his writings,

and it would have been uncharacteristic of him to

have kept some secret attraction towards men out of

his written record.  This is a guy, I honestly

believe, who didn't keep secrets.  I think truthfulness

was as deep an artistic principle as any he had,

and his principles were everything to him.

 

2) Visions of Cody -- yeah, it's not the easiest

book to read.  I skimmed the tape parts.  I love

the first section, though.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:49:42 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

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Sherri,

 

Now now, you make me sound like a Sensitive New Age Guy I don't think my

friends would recognize.  Just an old dinosaur who has learned to

survive the hysteria of current sexual politics by picking his words

carefully :)

 

Who was it, Stokely Carmichael? who when asked about the place of women

in the Black Power movement replied "On their backs."  Not an anwer that

would have shocked AG, JK or WSB I suspect, although given their

preferences AG and WSB wouldn't have found it all that helpful

 

James Stauffer

 

Sherri wrote: . . .

> 

> all that being said, Bill & James, i would like to thank you both for what i

> infer to be an enlightened, progressive and caring attitude toward women.

> ciao,

> sherri

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:01:31 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Bay Area Beat-L Bash

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The first annual SF Bay Area Beat-L Bash will be held the evening of

August 2 at a secret location on the Peninsula. This is your opportunity

to find out of any of us are real. Interested partiers are encouraged to

backchannel me for particulars.  You might as well come because the rest

of you will probably have to endure our posts until Bill Gargan cuts us

off from communion (OK, I've been reading Ulysses).

 

Rave on

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:57:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

Comments: To: "Jcarsonm@AOL.COM" <Jcarsonm@AOL.COM>

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thinking maybe if we're going to do a reading list of sorts...why not some

 poetry too?  just an idea...tell me what you think,

ryan.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:25:45 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

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Since everyone seems to be talking about Kerouac and his relationships

with women, how about _The Subterraneans_, and maybe Bukowski's _Women_

to go along with the theme?

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:48:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Good beginning

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> James Stauffer wrote:

> >

> > Benz and Diane,

> >

> > You guys make some good points about this book, but you also raise a

> > couple of issues that have been troubling me.

> >

> > I have trouble with AG as an explicator of this book (VOC) and really

> > of

> > Jack in general.  It seems to me that while he is often brilliantly

> > insightful about Jack, Allen also tries to rewrite Jack into sharing

> > his

> > own mythology and theology more than Jack perhaps did.  Ginsberg is

> > always a propagandist.  We get sort of a strange phenomenon going

> > here,

> > Jack trying to rewrite Neal as he would like him to be and then Allen

> > putting his spin onto the whole thing. This is a pretty natural

> > dynamic

> > among friends.  Most of us know better what our friends should do to

> > improve their lives better than we know what to do about our own.

> >

> > I tried for awhile to read VOC without first reading AG's

> introduction

> > so as to be able to see the book with my own eyes rather than

> > Ginsbergs.

> >

> > James Stauffer

I don't see Ginsberg's notes on VOC as rewriting Jack based on his own

agenda.  I actually thought his memories of the events and his

interpretation of the novel as a whole gave me more of a sense of what

was going on in terms of method, and that his knowledge of Jack as a

friend was what created that elucidation.  There were times when I might

not have seen the point in finishing VOC if it was not for his insistence

that a certain type of greatness resided within the work.  I don't see

what he wrote as having any sort of selfish motivation.  I think he was

truly disgusted with publishers that refused to publish the work because

it might not sell well.  The difficulty of technique makes it truly hard

to digest for anyone not interested in all aspects of Kerouac's

development as a writer.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:06:20 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

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> Sherri wrote:

> 

> i think i must not have gotten my point across.

> 

> i really don't think JK was sexist.

> 

> i do believe that he had personal problems with women, and

> relationships in

> general, but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be

> seen and

> not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc.,  which were

> the

> prevailing opinions i grew up with.

> 

> my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some

> consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's.  and

> that he

> realized that there was some unfairness for women.

Upon what do you base your statement about Kerouac giving consideration

to the woman question?  I have to agree with Bill and James here and

perhaps even more strongly assert that he never had any idea of what a

woman's mind or point of view might have been.  To put it as blatently as

he certainly did in VOC and OTR, he saw women as cunts.  He never talked

about a woman has being intelligent or independent, or ever even came

close to understanding a woman's mindset.  And despite the fact that

we are talking about the forties and fifties, there were certainly

independent and professional women to be found.  When he took a woman to

dinner or met one at a party, he certainly never had anything in mind

close to wanting to more from her than sex.  How many women did he invite

over to discuss his latest writing with?  He couldn't deal with a

husband/wife situation and he certainly couldn't deal with a

daughter/father relationship.  He was a great writer and the humanness he

so eloquently described applied to women as well as men, but I think he

was a sexist in every sense of the word.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:12:03 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: New thread

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> Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> "Some of the Dharma" is about to hit the bookstores.  How about making

> this our new thread?

 

 

Since it seems that "Some of the Dharma" is not going to be available

until September, why don't we have a Kerouac summer and next read

something in between VOC and the new book that might help to bridge the

gap between VOC and then.  Any suggestions as to which book would be best

for that kind of reading?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:29:09 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      [Fwd: reading on August 22nd]

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Griffin requested that I pass this on to the list since he is currently

off list travelling.

 

s.a. griffin wrote:

 . . .

> 

> listen, could you do me a favor, since I am no longer on the beatlist,

> could you post the following info for me?

> 

> am producing/hosting a reading of beat poets at The Galaxa Studios 3707

> Sunset Blvd. in Silverlake area of Los Angeles, Friday August 22nd at 8pm.

> 6 bucks at the door.  The readers are :

> 

> Philomene Long

> Jack Micheline

> Frank T. Rios

> Tony Scibella

> John Thomas

> 

> they are all Venice Beats save for Jack who is of course out of New York

> and San Francisco.  A small coming together of west coast beat.

> 

> hope that all is well.  when ya coming down?  my regards to all on the list...

> 

> later

> xxxooo

> s.a.

 

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:14:59 -0700

To: <stauffer@pacbell.net>

From: "s.a. griffin" <sagriffin@mindspring.com>

Subject: reading on August 22nd

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James, been outta town working in Salt Lake, back for a week or so.

 

Yeah, the big beat will be a lotta work, but could be rewarding to say the

least.  an education and a coming together. will talk more on that after I

get back from my second round in Salt Lake middle of August.

 

listen, could you do me a favor, since I am no longer on the beatlist,

could you post the following info for me?

 

am producing/hosting a reading of beat poets at The Galaxa Studios 3707

Sunset Blvd. in Silverlake area of Los Angeles, Friday August 22nd at 8pm.

6 bucks at the door.  The readers are :

 

Philomene Long

Jack Micheline

Frank T. Rios

Tony Scibella

John Thomas

 

they are all Venice Beats save for Jack who is of course out of New York

and San Francisco.  A small coming together of west coast beat.

 

hope that all is well.  when ya coming down?  my regards to all on the list...

 

later

xxxooo

s.a.

 

 

--------------8381DB32F57--

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:20:10 -0700

Reply-To:     dumo13@EROLS.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>

Subject:      Get your kicks on ????

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Hello,

 

Something funny has always bothered me, maybe it's because of my age...

but does anyone know the roads Neal and Jack took cross-country?  I'd be

exstactic beyond anyone's imaginations if someone could tell me.

 

Thanks,

Chris

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:30:58 -0700

Reply-To:     runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: reading on August 22nd]

In-Reply-To:  <33D42905.4581@pacbell.net>

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At 8:29 PM -0700 7/21/97, James Stauffer passed along from s.a.:

 

 

> > am producing/hosting a reading of beat poets at The Galaxa Studios 3707

> > Sunset Blvd. in Silverlake area of Los Angeles, Friday August 22nd at 8pm.

> > 6 bucks at the door.  The readers are :

 

I think I can make this.  cool.

 

Dogulas

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

step aside, and let the man go thru

        ---->  let the man go thru

super bon-bon (soul coughing)

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:40:51 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Cody: the last 100 pages

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I did finish VOC and I have got to say the ending left me in total

dispair.  There is no doubt that by the time you have gotten to this part

of the work, that Cody has become largely a gigantic mythological figure,

and that this mythical giant is beaten down by America and fades into

total dispair for all that America is and all that Cody can never become.

I was totally depressed by the ending, in fact, given the darkness and

bleakness of the situation, I have no doubt as to Jack drank to block

his sense of sadness and despair.  The end contains such great despair,

it could even drive me to drink.

 

Here are some quotes that paint the picture:

 

pg. 321

"Cody stands, implacable, unforetold, expressionless, almost dull looking

and ridiculously serious, Cody Pomeray. showing me how he will die, and

how well he does and also not showing anything to anyone but just being

there, dead in the void."

 

pg. 327

"the dusk of the park, the benches, the sad walk, the gathering darkness,

the hollow shell of Cody haunting the gloom and these Mexican monuments

and fountains like the ones we saw in Chapultepee Park at the bottom of

the road--Cody is dead."

 

pg. 335

"Do I have a baby daughter somewhere?  I have not troubled to find

out..."

 

pg. 340

"I saw that in his wild life of car-stealing, girl-conning, poolhalling

and hustling he needed order and a certain amount of help.  He was very

youthful and severe, and I marveled at him--openly with myself I thought

of him as a heartbreaking new friend, in fact very beautiful to whom the

only thing I could ever be left to say would be, 'Ah but your beauty will

die and so will life and the world."

 

pg. 368

"I writing this book because we are all going to die--In the loneliness

of my life, my father dead, my brother dead, my mother faraway, my sister

and wife far away, nothing here but my own tragic hands that once were

guarded by a world, a sweet attention, that now are left to guide and

disappear their own way into the common dark of all our death, sleeping

in me raw bed, alone and stupid; with just this one pride and

consolation: my heart broke in the general despair and opened upwards

toward the Lord, I made a suplication in this dream."

 

pg. 373

"we all stumbled out into raggedy American realities from the dream of

jazz: all our truths are at night, are to be found in the night on land

or sea.  Pray for the safety of the mind; find a justification for

yourself in the past only; romanticize yourself into nights.  What is the

truth?  You can't communicate with any other being, forever.  Cody is so

lost in his private--being--If I were God I'd have the word, Cody is my

friend and he is doomed as I am doomed."

 

pg. 389

"I'm powerless in from of such lonliness and imprisoned despair..."

 

Pg. 397

"I stood on sandpiles with an open soul, I not only accept loss forever,

I am made of loss--I am made of Cody too..."

 

pg. 398

"Goodbye Cody--your lips in your moments of self-possessed knowledge and

new found responsible goodness are as silent, make at least a noise, and

mystify with sense in nature, like the light of an automobile reflecting

from the shinny silverpaint of a sidewalk tank this very instant, as

silent and all this, as a bird crossing the dawn in search of the

mountain cross and the sea beyond the city at the end of the land.

        Adios, you who watched the sun go down, at the rail, by my side,

smiling--

        Adios, King.

 

 

Strickly in the framework of this ending, what hope can we hold for

America or each other?  We are betrayed by America, betrayed by our own

mortality.  Within this sense of doom, what makes any action any better

than any other action?  Here despair has taken hold of the mind and there

can be nothing new or expectant about life, only the fact that we are

doomed to die, and doomed in trying to lead any sort of life in the light

of American decay.  For what can one hope?  The hero is no longer a hero.

 The hero is as doomed as the mind that created him.  Why not wallow as

Jack does, in this dispair.  Does anyone see even one positive thing in

the ending of this book?

 

And, btw, I now see the tape as an essential thing, for in it begins the

basic thread that the writer must then elaborate on and develop.  Even

though taken alone, it does not illuminate anything, it does give a

foundation from which the writer can take the words and further develop

them as Jack did in the chapters that followed--much like a jazz piece

that starts out rather basic and then is taken to greater places by those

that pick up the original notes.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:01:27 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Diane,

 

Admittedly I haven't yet made the last 100 pages, but your argument

troubles me, as this book does.

 

Why is this America's fault?  This part misses me completely.  Writers

have been dealing with the inevitability of death since Homer and the

Biblical writers.  As long as man has been writing this has been at the

center of it.  Doesn't make it any easier to accept, but it's certainly

not Jack's discovery tho he sometimes seems to think so.

 

Modern life everywhere has been tough on heroes.  I suspect even Homer

thought it was better in the old days.  Again, not a new discovery by

JK.  I think that this is why the book strikes me as so damn

frustratingly naive.  How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that

had Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been

much different.  Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes back

to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack so

he drank himself to death.  America fails us all.  All of our countries

fail us.  Life often seems a bad joke.  If we don't do our best to

hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?

 

James Stauffer

 

Diane Carter wrote:

 

 , , ,

> 

> Strickly in the framework of this ending, what hope can we hold for

> America or each other?  We are betrayed by America, betrayed by our own

> mortality.  Within this sense of doom, what makes any action any better

> than any other action?  Here despair has taken hold of the mind and there

> can be nothing new or expectant about life, only the fact that we are

> doomed to die, and doomed in trying to lead any sort of life in the light

> of American decay.  For what can one hope?  The hero is no longer a hero.

>  The hero is as doomed as the mind that created him.  Why not wallow as

> Jack does, in this dispair.  Does anyone see even one positive thing in

> the ending of this book?

> 

> And, btw, I now see the tape as an essential thing, for in it begins the

> basic thread that the writer must then elaborate on and develop.  Even

> though taken alone, it does not illuminate anything, it does give a

> foundation from which the writer can take the words and further develop

> them as Jack did in the chapters that followed--much like a jazz piece

> that starts out rather basic and then is taken to greater places by those

> that pick up the original notes.

> DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:17:58 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

(snipped)

>How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that had

>Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been

>much different.  Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes back

>to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack so

>he drank himself to death.  America fails us all.  All of our countries

>fail us.  Life often seems a bad joke.  If we don't do our best to

>hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?

> 

>James Stauffer

 

James,

  I don't think that Kerouac was arguing that the country of America had

failed him or Cody literally (I haven't read the book under discussion but

I've gotten a similar sense from some of his other books), more that the

"American Dream" had failed them.  "Life"-  sorry, you can only borrow it.

"Liberty"- well, here's a taste but hurry, the cops are coming.  "The

pursuit of happiness"- we didn't word that right, actually it's more like

"The flight from misery".  A country can't fail you but your hopes for a

country can disappoint the hell outta you.  The ideals which your country

claims to espouse and the things, like life itself, which you take for

granted often backslap you once you're old enough to realize it.  I don't

think that this is a display of naivety, rather a sign that coming of age is

a lifelong process.

 

                                                    James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:51:59 -0500

Reply-To:     LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>

Subject:      Second Beat #4

Comments: To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

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Having met with sucess (increasing everyday) in the distribution of Second

Beat #3 (the Allen Ginsberg Memorial, I'm sure you'll all remember, which

is still available-a very limited supply of first printings before we go

into reprints-for a buck) we have moved on to our fourth issue-the

religious persecution issue. Having received two letters from my "religious

nutso" deacon-uncle in Texas challenging our faith, we decided to rebut

with an entire issue of our mag devoted to him. The letter iss as follows

below. We would appreciate any comments in defense of ours and the Beat's

generation subject for print in said issue.

 

Thanks,

Thadeus D'Angelo, Camellia City Books

 

Thursday, April 10, 1997

 

 

Thadeus D'Angelo (Spittle)

C/O Matt Doman

2034 Johnston Station Road.

Summit, MS 39666

 

Dear Thad,

 

This is Unc, bud!  I'd like to introduce you to someone who I believe would

be a better mentor to you than Demonic.  I understand that ol' Demo is a

college boy but it appears that this friend of mine, a mere H.S. Senior,

has a clearer perspective on life than he.  Now go easy on him as he has

only been acknowledged as a gifted poet by his peers and the International

Society Of Poet and has only been to Washington D.C. once to receive a

dubious "Poet of Merit Award" being in the top 150 of 3000 poets.  I don't

know how often he can correspond with you since he is busy  legitimately

publishing his poetry and writing a childrens book for publication.

 

Hey Thad, this is Joey.  I'm a friend of John's and I just read your 2nd

Issue of Second Beat.  I tend to write a little poetry and the occasional

story or two myself.  Now, I'd like to present a challenge to you and

Demonic.  It seems to me I heard once that good ol' Thad claimed to be a

Christian, and thinking back, I do recall the very night that Jesus Christ

claimed your life.  Now, something here seems a little screwy, jaded,

turned about, if you will.

 

  So therefore, bretheren, I do now begin to communicate

  Quite clearly, I think, though the hour is late.

  I boldly challenge thee to think, to ponder,

  To seriously commit yourselves to wonder

Of all that I and my Friend of Three

  Do so solemnly write to thee.

 

  We want to stretch your thinkers far

  And test the thoughts of who you are

  And who you claim to be

  You see it's all the same to me.

 

  I see in you a certainty(?),

  A confidence in what you see

  Or perhaps in what you profess to be

  I guess that's what it seems to me.

  It's Truth you want and so diligently search

  <hint> Think back to the Word you heard in Church.

 

  I want thus to communicate with you two,

  Or one on one if this suits you

  To give you Spiritual food to devour

  And thus decide in your hearts this hour.

 

  So it's Demo and Thad searching for the Truth

  With me, My Three providing the Proof.

  Now the challenge is thus:

  We write to you, you write to Us.  ~~~~Joey

 

Hey Thad, Unc again.  I trust you won't be intimidated and not respond.

Although I must tell you that most of the Demo's I have met, when they are

confronted with the Truth, they flee.  I don't expect that you would print

any of your dialog with Joey in Second Beat, that would be too enlightening

to your readers and might increase reader interest.  What do you say Thad,

Demo?  Please continue to send me copies off Second Beat so that I can keep

up with your dialog with Joey.  By the way I was hardly shocked at the

language in Second Beat since I may have heard one or two somewhere in my

past.  Be careful though that it may replace

 

english as your primary language. We'll call it Beat-bonics!

 

Cheers,

Unc and Joey

 

Please submit all response to:

 

                        Mr. Joey Hensley

                        1705 Cougar Creek

                        Conroe, Texas 77385

 

 

 

that's the letter as it appeared to us. Give us your comments via e-mail at

<2ndbeat@telapex.com>

 

thanks again,

Thadeus

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:20:44 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      VofC

 

Diane is right in her analysis of VoC.  This sense of despair permeates

much of Kerouac's work, though it is something he strives to fight or

work out.  There's an attempt in OTR to salvage some happiness or find

redemption if you will through movement and speed.   There's an attempt

to recapture the supposed "ideals" of the pioneer and the frontiersman,

with the car replacing the wagon train and horse, and the goal

translated from space to time, from miles to miles per hour.In "Dharma

Bums" the search is turned inward.   The tension between despair and

hope in Kerouac's work is what keeps it interesting.  He remains a

"searcher" trying to make some kind of sense out of life as he sees it.

Buddhism and Catholicism are two systems he embraces hoping to find an

answer; drugs like LSD are another possible sources of enlightenment.

The point is he keeps on going with the protagonist in each novel

grappling in a different way with the same questions, the same despair.

I've never really made up my mind as to whether this movement from novel

to novel was spiral or circular.   Are we left in the end with the

gloomy Kerouac Diane quotes in VofC, the man who belived "the woods are

full of wardens" or the Kerouac of "Hix calix.  Here's the cup, make

sure there's wine in it."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:01:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: In regards

 

Reply to message from dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET of Mon, 21 Jul

> 

>My friends in Beating, (sounds like a support group or something)

>  I'd like to take part in the next group reading but I've got a bit of a

>problem:  an inability to lay hands on the books that have been mentioned as

>candidates so far.  This inability kept me from participating in the

>_Visions of Cody_ project.  I'm currently reading WSB's _The Western Lands_

>(which a friend had to lend to me).  Could we add this one to the list of

>possibilities?  I wouldn't mind reading _Naked Lunch_ again either.  I think

>we could get a lot of mileage out of that one.

>  Or Kerouac:  _Visions of Gerard_, _The Subterraneans_, _The Dharma Bums_?

>I have a few other Kerouac works but the ones I've listed are the only ones

>I really have any interest in reading again presently.

>  Anyway, whatever you guys decide is cool.

> 

>                                                   James M.

 

Currently I've just started reading Naked Lunch, & I must admitt...it has

me a bit boggled, but I do love his style (this is my first Burroughs work

I'm reading)...even if I'm not always sure what he's talkign about...and

the fact that he quotes Macbeth in one part rates highly with me me, since

I spent three weeks studying that play this past academic year for a

class...anyone who would like to offer emotional support and/or insight,

please do! :)

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

                                                  ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

                                                  Diane M. Homza

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:06:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

 

>> 

>i would suggest One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest because it is a short

>easy read and is just a great book. i geuss Ken KEsey would be a beat

>but i always thought he was right between the line of being a beatnik

>and a hippie. he still did write good. also, the main character in

>OFOTCN always did remind me somewhat of Neal cassady. questions,

>comments? Cya~randy

 

I think quite a nubmer of people thought that the main character _was_

fashioned after Neal, but Kesey hadn't met Cassady until after the novel

had already been written....

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

                                                  ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

                                                  Diane M. Homza

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:15:18 -0400

Reply-To:     Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

In-Reply-To:  <33D43EA6.62E5@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Why is this America's fault?

 

The thing we have to remember is to recognixe the America Kerouac is

dealing with.  America is one of the most unique places on Earth because

it has developed an incredibly mythological identity in a scant 200+

years.  America breeds myths like flies grow on shit.  We have systems

who's sole purpose is to create these myths and legends and are so

insanely effective not even those individuals involved recognize the power

they wield.  This is a place where performers reach the level of religious

icon, and with death they are propelled into our cultural conscience to

live there with Jesus for the rest of eternity.  Except even more so

because we know John Wayne and Elvis were real.

 

> Modern life everywhere has been tough on heroes.  I suspect even Homer

> thought it was better in the old days.  Again, not a new discovery by

> JK.  I think that this is why the book strikes me as so damn

> frustratingly naive.  How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that

> had Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been

> much different.  Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes back

> to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack so

> he drank himself to death.  America fails us all.  All of our countries

> fail us.  Life often seems a bad joke.  If we don't do our best to

> hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?

> 

America in big gold letters written in sunlight across Montana sky's is

the faith people have the most trouble rejecting.  Never in my life have I

read a religious text that could inspire me to life like say, _On The

Road_ or _Travels with Charley_.  Its this America that failed Jack

Kerouac.  It was this America he lost faith in and let the vital energy

Jack had that we all love whither and die.  Jack was an idealist in this

respect.  He really believed in this America.  His disappointment came

when he realized that that America was a far cry from the real America

where its illegal to be poor, where you can't just camp on the side of the

road, and where the public good has nothing at all to do with the public.

 

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                      P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586          Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:29:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

 

Reply to message from dcarter@TOGETHER.NET of Mon, 21 Jul

 

>> realized that there was some unfairness for women.

>Upon what do you base your statement about Kerouac giving consideration

>to the woman question?  I have to agree with Bill and James here and

>perhaps even more strongly assert that he never had any idea of what a

>woman's mind or point of view might have been.  To put it as blatently as

>he certainly did in VOC and OTR, he saw women as cunts.  He never talked

>about a woman has being intelligent or independent, or ever even came

>close to understanding a woman's mindset.  And despite the fact that

>we are talking about the forties and fifties, there were certainly

>independent and professional women to be found.  When he took a woman to

>dinner or met one at a party, he certainly never had anything in mind

>close to wanting to more from her than sex.  How many women did he invite

>over to discuss his latest writing with?  He couldn't deal with a

>husband/wife situation and he certainly couldn't deal with a

>daughter/father relationship.  He was a great writer and the humanness he

>so eloquently described applied to women as well as men, but I think he

>was a sexist in every sense of the word.

>DC

 

 

the line that caught me here was, "To put it as blatently as he certainly did

in VOC & OTR, he saw women as cunts."  The biggest problem I have

with ole Jack is: who's the narrator in his novels. Is it Jack who says

this, thinks this, or is it a character of his?  Are his novels fiction or

biography?  True, he wrote about things that really happened & he even used

real names & then made up psydonyms later on....but were these people the

REAL Allen & Burroughs & Neal, or Allen, Burroughs, Neal, Carolyn, LuAnne

etc. as seen by Jack....which would in itself make them somewhat fictionalized

from who they REALLY were.  I don't remember coming across this line in

OTR, & I never read VOC, but I do remember coming acorss other lines in OTR

such as (gotta get my copy here), "The truth of the matter is we don't

understand our women, we blame on them and it's all our fault."  Which

doesn't _sound_ sexist to me....and from Carolyn Cassady's descriptions of

Jack in Off the Road, he didn't come across as a sexist...maybe becuase I

jsut can't picture a sexist as being as sensitive as jack was.  I mean, we

know that when it came to sex he evidently was rather shy about it...so if

he did only see women as cunts, he sure didn't go about getting some the

way the typical gigalo would....& when compared to the image of Neal, Jack

was defiently mild-mannered with the women.  It _is_ true, very ture, that

he didn't know how to handle his relationships with women....but I have to

side with the other side...it wasn't necessarily becuase he was a

sexist...he just didn't know _how_.

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

                                                  ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

                                                  Diane M. Homza

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:40:36 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Stauffer wrote:

> 

> Diane,

> 

> Admittedly I haven't yet made the last 100 pages, but your argument

> troubles me, as this book does.

> 

> Why is this America's fault?  This part misses me completely.  Writers

> have been dealing with the inevitability of death since Homer and the

> Biblical writers.  As long as man has been writing this has been at the

> center of it.  Doesn't make it any easier to accept, but it's certainly

> not Jack's discovery tho he sometimes seems to think so.

> 

> Modern life everywhere has been tough on heroes.  I suspect even Homer

> thought it was better in the old days.  Again, not a new discovery by

> JK.  I think that this is why the book strikes me as so damn

> frustratingly naive.  How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that

> had Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been

> much different.  Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes

> back

> to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack

> so

> he drank himself to death.  America fails us all.  All of our countries

> fail us.  Life often seems a bad joke.  If we don't do our best to

> hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?

> 

> James Stauffer

 

 

James,

 

I think your argument about "Why is it America's fault?" also troubles me

more than Jack's despair about human life.  All humans inevitably fail

other humans, heros also fail us because they are cloaked in the

perceptions of a human mind.  Our frailties are as great as our

strengths, that's what makes living interesting.  I think that the

America that failed Jack is somewhat larger than an American dream that

failed.  America fails all of us.  It failed all of the beats.  The thing

that attracts me to Ginsberg is that in spite of what he saw as America's

"hardheartedness" he wrote such absolutely positive poetry.  Even in Howl

he is saying "look at the way things are but this isn't the way they have

to be."  When it came to things he thought needed changing in society

and culture, he took action.  I get the feeling from VOC that, yes, if he

had been born in another country, Jack thinks he might not have this

despair.  He talks in Mexico about watching the Indian lifestyle and

thinking that they didn't even know that we had an atom bomb.  He writes

of the misery of watching the masses going to work everyday, and paying

taxes, and being failed in their expectations.  In VOC he doesn't dwell

on the "highs" of crossing America as he did even in OTR.  Would he feel

differently about the America we have today; an America in which he would

could have seen himself as successful as a writer, an America that at

its core has the same failings it did in the time he was writing about?

I think I keep searching for something more positive in his vision, the

human that despite the fact that he's going to die rises to beauty and

joy in the face of that, someone who that in spite of the failings of

America sees hope in the indominitable spirit of the individuals that

make up America.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:39:12 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)

 

Dear Chris:

 

Your post of 97-07-19 03:41:55 EDT, "Jack's Sexuality", hit on a very

important point that is often overlooked amidst the energy and fireworks that

the "kicks" aspect of JK's works generate.  Just as he tried, in vain, to

distract himself from the "darkness" and demons and whip up a sense of "joy"

through his writing, some readers, it seems to me, have been fooled more

successfully into not seeing into the ultimate abyss than the author himself.

 I am the one you referred to when you wrote:  "Someone said something about

Jack's books being about running from something and toward it at the same

time...".  My exact words, in a response to a post from Sherri way back on

July 12, were:  "....Throughout OTR, it seems that only in the pendulum

movement back and forth across the continent itself is there a fleeting

capture of "IT", what they are looking for is just behind or ahead in the

flow of movement.  He and most of the others he writes about are running away

from and toward something concurrently, in an unending treadmill like an

experiential/emotional food chain....".  The most insightful aspect of the

new Kerouac tribute cd, KICKS JOY DARKNESS, which has generated some

commentary on this List, is the title itself.  These, indeed, are the core

ingredients of all his writings.  Somewhat understandably, we would often

rather revel in the first 2 components, they're simply more fun.  But a

careful and honest reading of OTR and the other works reveals a deeper and

sadder message at the end of the road, so to speak.  JK and the Beats

certainly got past the totalitarian, conformist milieu of their (and, let's

not kid ourselves, our) day, their doing this in and of itself was a

startling breath of fresh air in especial contrast to their time and place,

where grey flannel, tv-dinner consumer slavery was hitting its stride in its

own freshly-minted crassness in the wake of WWII.   But when JK got past all

of that, what did he ultimately find?  His one long work which all his books

comprise are a chronicle of DESPERATION and ultimately DESPAIR, following the

same tragic course that his life took.  The sound and fury of kicks and joy

ALWAYS end in darkness.  This is not to say that we shouldn't appreciate or

find credible the other ingredients, they are authentic and courageous in the

context of their, or any, time and place.  But ultimately, JK's message might

be paraphrased as follows: "I have overcome and put aside the illusory and

meaningless distractions of the society from which I came, and have gone on a

desperate quest for meaning, through religion, experience, the very act of

movement itself-  but alas, I only see MORE clearly than ever the final

futility of it all, darkness and death claim everyone, no matter how wildly,

loudly or "freely" they thrash about".  As James Stauffer wrote in a recent

post, the foregoing is not exactly a new discovery to be credited to JK, it

is a theme that runs from Homer to Hemingway and through today and for as

long as the human condition exists.  But it was JK's fate to RE-discover this

yet again, the particularly repressive society he emerged from and became an

outsider from only heightening the despair of his ultimate discovery.  In my

opinion, it is not the task of the artist to necessarily make new

discoveries, but to express the eternal truths that are re-discovered

(despite our best efforts more than ever) in every generation, Beat or

otherwise.  Diane Carter, in her "Cody:  the last 100 pages" post of today,

has strongly picked up on the theme I'm running from, with and toward here.

 I don't blame her for needing a drink after comprehending JK's ultimate

statement in VOC, it's not for the squeamish or those who insist on looking

at the "bright" side.  But as Ginsberg pointed out, JK's writings are the

result of a frank understanding of and reaction to the "quivering meat wheel"

of our mortal existence, in America or anywhere else on the planet where

"death needs time for what it kills to grow in, for ah pook's sweet sake" to

quote WSB.  Speaking of being frank, this may be stretching things (what the

hell, I've gone this far and this paragraph is getting close to the length of

one of those JK rolls), but I think that the presentation of the character

Frank Booth in the film BLUE VELVET hits on the same point that JK brings

home in VOC & elsewhere.  He wildly runs rampant, a violent pure id mauling

everything and everyone in his path- but, at the conclusion of every

encounter, he quiets down and says "now it's dark".  JK would have understood

and been delightfully disturbed by this portrayal had he lived to see it.

 

Getting back to your original post that set me off here, I am also a big fan

of DESOLATION ANGELS among all the JK works that I have read so far, it

probably would be my desert island choice.  And again, there is no escape,

either all by himself on Desolation Peak or among the revelers in the city,

from the darkness.  I also agree that JK's particular demons in the sexual

and religious departments greatly added to the torment and irreconcilability

that afflicted him and drove him to destruction, as predicted in the works he

created along the way.  He has to have been one of the most conflicted and

unhappy people in the annals of artistry.  Many recent posts have dealt with

how stingy and uncaring JK was toward Neal Cassady, but if it's any

consolation, JK paid a very heavy price for his mythologizing of NC at least

as much as NC paid for being mythologized.  Thoughtful and introverted,

happier to sit in a corner and take notes on than to dive into a scene much

of the time, he was trapped in a caricature of the mythical Dean Moriarty

after OTR made him famous overnight.  His appalling peasant apron-string

mother and later his nurse-wife Stella tried to shoo away the fans who

misunderstood his message and wanted him to be NC-DM, while he cowered and

drank in a corner, the antithesis of the fearlessly free life that a surface

reading of his works evokes.

 

Anyway, without quoting or referring to any more of its particulars, I think

your post is right on the money and am proud to have been woven into it.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:25:42 -0400

Reply-To:     GYENIS@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Eastward Journey, really the end

 

>>> I didn't finish my message on my eastward jouney before I sent it out so

I'm finishing it now. Sorry about that.

 

>From New Orleans went up to Durham, North Carolina and then went to visit

some people in a town called Todd (about 2 hours away). The people own a

General Store that has become quite a tourist trap. They sell penny candy for

a nickel a piece.

 

Then went to Rocky Mount, where Kerouac lived with his sister Nin. (No, that

is not an abbreviation for Nine Inch Nails, it's short for Caroline). Rocky

Mount is about 45 minutes east of Raleigh. It is where Neil Cassady shows up

on Christmas Eve to see Jack (in ON THE ROAD). It is also where Jack wrote a

few of his books on the back porch of Nin's house. John Dorfner has a book

out on Rocky Mount with pictures of the Kerouac house if you want more info

on that.

 

>From North Carolina went up to Wash DC where we hung out and looked at the

monuments. I lived in Wash DC for 10 years, and I still think it is one of

the best tourist towns around with all the free museums and events going on.

Hang out in Adams Morgan, or 14th Street and U Street. Only Yuppies go to

Georgetown (even though that has a few good spots as well). Capitol Hill has

a real cool bar (with all the deer butts on the wall) but I forget it's name

right now, maybe Howard can tell you.

 

>From there went to New York, which is where I am right now. Since I've

arrived here, I have gone to McSorley's, my favorite place for a beer in the

city. McSorley's is the city's oldest bar, open since 1854 or so.

 

Walked around the village a little - Washington Square, Tompkins Park (or is

it Square). Also walked through Central Park which is one of my favorite

places in the city because you are almost totally cut off from the city.

There are places there where you see no buildings or cars, and just barely

hear the rumblings of the city.

 

Also went to Coney Island and rode the Wonder Wheel, this giant Ferris Wheel

that is a trip in itself, with only the rust holding it together (and maybe

spit).

 

And rode the Cyclone, the best rollercoaster in the world (ok, that was just

New York hype). Sat in the front car and came to that first mighty drop that

I believe is slightly concave so that you are hurtling through empty air

before you smash into the bottom of the valley where you find your stomach at

the bottom of the sole of your feet with only your shoes preventing it from

splattering on the floor of the car.  And only $4.00.

 

So I am now at the end of the eastward Journey. I'm here for a few days

before I head back west. I'll be taking a different mode of transportation.

Maybe ride the Hound (bus that is), or one of those drive-a-ways.

 

Trip took 3 weeks or so, drove 5,239 miles, and I think 14 states, but who's

counting.

 

Hope everybody has their own adventure in their own way.

enjoy,

Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:32:04 -0500

Reply-To:     Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      next book i vote westernland

MIME-Version: 1.0

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imho what about reading one of each of the big three,

voc was good, next western land then maybe howl?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:26:02 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Love triangle

 

Barbara Foster, a colleague at CUNY, has recently written a book

entitled "Three in Love: Menages a trois from ancient to modern times."

There's a chapter on the Beats that focuses on Jack, Neal, and Carolyn.

Carolyn and  Foster have corresponded and Carolyn seems to appreciate

Foster's approach.  I'll try to get a hold of a copy and post a review

in more detail.    For those who are interested, the book is published

by Harper's and sells for $25.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:47:36 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Finis Europae (poem).

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                        Finis Europae.

                        Finis Europae.

                Finis Europae.Finis Europae.

                        Finis Europae?

                        Finis Europae?

                        Finis Europae.

                        WORKERS OF ALL LANDS

                                UNITE

                        KARL            MARX

        THE     PHILOSOPHERS    HAVE    ONLY

        INTERPRETED     THE     WORLD           IN

        VARIOUS WAYS.   THE             POINT

        HOWEVER IS      TO      CHANGE  IT.

Finis Europae?Finis Europae?Finis Europae?Finis Europae?

        THE             POINT

        HOWEVER IS      TO      CHANGE  IT.

                        Finis Europae.

                        Finis Europae!

                        KARL            MARX

                        KARL            MARX

                        Finis Europae?

                        Finis Europae?

                        Finis Europae.

        VARIOUS WAYS.   THE             POINT

        HOWEVER IS

                        Finis Europae.

                        Finis Europae!

                        the point

                        the point is

                        finis Europae!

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

*Writers have been dealing with the inevitability of death

since Homer and the Biblical writers.--James Stauffer*

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:45:47 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: next book i vote westernland

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

> 

> imho what about reading one of each of the big three,

> voc was good, next western land then maybe howl?

 

This makes quite a bit of sense.  It seems there are several on the list

that could help us along through the Western Lands - patricia and arthur

come to mind immediately.

 

Burroughs influence on Allen and Jack in the new york days is just so

powerful - it seems a mistake to let his writings drift into a fog

merely because he has outlived the odds.

 

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas, america

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:59:17 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Hunter's ale

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Newsgroups: alt.journalism.gonzo

 

 

So I'm staring at the coolers in the liquor store on Friday night trying

to be a good consumer and decide whose coffers I will fill with my $7 for

their product when I notice a special 16-ouncer (sold singly) with a

label image scrawled by Ralph Steadman. I laughed at the $3 price tag and

kept looking, soon finding another 6-pack also apparently illustrated by

Steadman, with a demented clown-topped figure standing open-jawed next to

the words GOOD BEER and NO CENSORSHIP. Upon closer inspection I noticed

that HST signature/seal of approval and a quote from the Good Doctor: "If

you must roll old ladies down hills / and you don't want to pay the bills

/ Try to be nice, and clean off their lice / with powerful Road Dog Ale."

An advertisement couldn't have been more in the American spirit, and I

eagerly grabbed a 6 from this Aspen-based microbrew, agreeing with the

other prominently-featured Thompson quote: "Good people drink good beer."

 

While I am not stupid enough to buy a broken operating system for my

computer just because the company paid Allen Ginsberg to read in

their commercial, or wear overpriced shoes because another co. gave cash

to Burroughs, I will favor an HST-endorsed microbrew over most any other

overpriced ale -- at least this one time.

 

Yes, the beer was a welcome component to a night of debauchery on a

local public beach, and later that weekend I did call their 800/9DOGGIE

hotline for a catalog. But that's not saying I've fallen for the ad --

next time I may favor Rolling Rock and pretend its just as good, who

knows.

 

"There is an ancient Celtic axiom that says 'Good people drink good beer.'

Which is true, then as now. Just look around you in any public bar-room,

and you will quickly see: Bad people drink bad beer. Think about it."

 

 

 

<http://dsl.org/m/>  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

email stutz@dsl.org  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:18:48 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hunter's ale

Comments: To: michaelstutz <stutz@dsl.org>

 

In a message dated 97-07-22 18:11:06 EDT, you write:

 

<< "There is an ancient Celtic axiom that says 'Good people drink good beer.'

 Which is true, then as now. Just look around you in any public bar-room,

 and you will quickly see: Bad people drink bad beer. Think about it."

 

  >>

This is the only axiom that I can attest to as 100% correct and it's not just

because I'm celtic. My other part is Indian so firewater doesn't mix.

Charles

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:50:11 -0400

Reply-To:     Mcb93940@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonny Coop <Mcb93940@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fwd: Kerouac's Ancestor

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Can anyone provide some info for this guy?  Please feel free to e-mail me

directly or post to the list if appropriate and I'll forward. =20

 

Thanks!

 

Jerry Cimino

1-800-KER-OUAC

www.kerouac.com

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From:   lebd@globetrotter.qc.ca (Dany Leblanc)

Sender: jerry@kerouac.com

Resent-from:    lebd@globetrotter.qc.ca

To:     jerry@kerouac.com

Date: 97-07-21 14:28:57 EDT

 

I Jerry,

 

Is it possible for you to place this message in your internet page? That

will be great. If not it is O.K.

 

Thanks

______________________

 

I am searching for the Birth place of Jack Kerouac's Ancestor. This

Ancestor was Maurice Louis Alexandre LE BRIS de KERVOACH. He was the son =

of

Fran=E7ois Hyacinthe LE BRIS de KERVOACH and V=E9ronique Magdeleine de

MEUSEUILLAC (Muzillac). This family lived in the Center of Brittany

(Episcopate of Cornouaille), maybe in the departments of Finist=E8re, C=F4=

tes

d'Armor or Morbihan (1680-1710).

 

Jack Kerouac visited this region in 1965. He wrote the book, Satori in

Paris, on this Quest for his Ancertor. Many "fans" of Kerouac are concern=

ed

by the discovery of this Birth place.

 

The present Search out call is made by

Cl=E9ment Kirouac

Qu=E9bec, Canada

 

Thanks to all for any information (French or English)

 

E-mail   lebd@globetrotter.qc.ca

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:51:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      need help, please

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

i was wondering if anyone knew where i could get a full version of Allen =

Ginsberg's essay "Poetry, Violence, and The Trembling Lambs"?  i was =

reading about it in Schumacher's bio, and was extremely interested.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:17:46 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lines of Milton requested from Dave

 

Say Heav'nly Muse, shall not thy sacred vein

afford a Present to the infant God?

 

 

   Hath took no print of the approaching light,

And all the spangled host keep watch in squadrons bright?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:24:24 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lines not requested by Dave

 

Go home

to unwind the mummy roll by roll

 

 

Life is a poor host grabbing guests who came

swirling great pleated sheets wrapping the stars

Leaving, streaming party coils to their last car

some on twilight's slightly twisted cane

 

>From Charles Plymell's book, Forever Wider, Scarecrow Press 1985

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:34:13 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Chapter 2 ?????? p. 25--29

 

David

The lines you quoted by Milton have some of the same words

as from his 1629 poem, On The Morning of Christ's Nativity

 

Blake got a hold of some old rye bread. It lasted for days. Became moldy. He

wrote and painted for weeks, ran naked in his yard. Then he slept for days.

Woke up and decided to bepoet and wrote Songs of Innocence and Experience.

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:37:09 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

Comments: To: dcarter@together.net

 

In a message dated 97-07-23 00:08:42 EDT, you write:

 

<<   So I can't really compare Joyce's techniques to anything having

 to do with art.  I also do not have a scanner or know any >>

 

Just go look at any portrait 'till you start hallucinating.

CP

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:56:28 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      BLAKE DREAMS

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Hi Charles,

 

I've been working on a small collection of poems for the last 6

months, and W. Blake along with J. Milton have guest appearances.

If you want to have a sneak prevue I can send them your way. A good

share of them are starting to show up in the little mags. I'm not

sure if they would post them on the Beat-L. Let me know my friend.

 

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:18:58 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: must I again?

Comments: To: BOHEMIAN@maelstrom.stjohns.edu

 

In a message dated 97-07-19 12:16:46 EDT, you write:

 

<< God, I love/hate this medium!

  >>

 

< how linear>

 

Damn, I knew I shuda copyrited my lectures  back there in the 70's

before these kids morphically resonated to the Information age. Oh well, I'll

have to start another

ROUND of ideas.

 

Old Kaw Tribe saying:

Men dream so earth continue

Old Zuni Mothermen saying:

Women plant seed too

line grows from earth to sky

 

Datura Frenzy smell

Dead scent of time

Fracture started when great

claws clawed sacred circle

Maw for Uranium power

Bad Karma mutations

 

Old man knows trail

Better hurry

Future can't stop dreaming

Remember, Custer was a loser

 

Charley Far Eyes

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:43:23 -0400

Reply-To:     Aeschylus3@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tristan Jean <Aeschylus3@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

 

As long as it's poetry, why not read Rimbaud's Une saison en enfer (A Season

in Hell) .... it was enormously influential to the Beats ... especially

Kerouac, I believe ..... oh well, just a thought ...

 

tristan jean

aeschylus3@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:55:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      VOC Ending

MIME-Version: 1.0

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"Nobody knows what going to happen to anybody beyond the forlorn rags

of growing old."

 

On the Road

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:41:32 -0700

Reply-To:     runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

In-Reply-To:  <970723003708_104964723@emout06.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 9:37 PM -0700 7/22/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

 

> In a message dated 97-07-23 00:08:42 EDT, you write:

> 

> <<   So I can't really compare Joyce's techniques to anything having

>  to do with art.  I also do not have a scanner or know any >>

> 

> Just go look at any portrait 'till you start hallucinating.

 

 

Where would you start?  Anywhere.  "Um, from the nose head south until you

reach the gizzard. from there, take a sharp left and careen up to the

middle ear.  Ah, sit and rest a while.  listen to the sound of the train

upon the tracks.  bored?  head up the forest on your left again.  Slide

down the firewall of muscles below you and dare dare dare

 

I hear the voice of my mother calling

 

 

 

 

> CP

 

Douglas

 

 

>>off to wrok  [[no beat access :-(

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

step aside, and let the man go thru

        ---->  let the man go thru

super bon-bon (soul coughing)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:29:55 -0400

Reply-To:     Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: need help, please

Comments: To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <01BC96E9.89F962E0@tty106.softdisk.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Ryan L. Stonecipher wrote:

 

> i was wondering if anyone knew where i could get a full version of Allen

 Ginsberg's essay "Poetry, Violence, and The Trembling Lambs"?  i was reading

 about it in Schumacher's bio, and was extremely interested.

> 

 

Call the City Lights bookstore in San Francisco (don't have the number in

front of me, call information).  City Lights was Allen's original

publisher and they are likely to have most anything he wrote in their

catologues.  You can probably order it from them.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:20:04 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      San Francisco Book Signing

 

The other day I mentioned a book called "Three in Love," which contains

a chapter on Jack, Neal & Carolyn.  The author, Barbara Foster, will be

signing her bookat the following  book stores:   Borders Bookstore, 400

Post St, San Francisco, on Aug. 6th at 6:00 pm;  Book Passage in Corte

Madera on Aug. 6th at 7:30 pm; and at Gaia Books in Berkeley on Aug. 8th

at 7:30.  Thought this might give all you party animals in San Francisco

something to talk about.  For further information, contact your local

book store or Barbara Foster at bfoster@shiva.Hunter.cuny.edu.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:42:56 -0400

Reply-To:     Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: need help, please

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970723142756.5636A-100000@cap1.capaccess. org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Ryan L. Stonecipher wrote:

> 

>> i was wondering if anyone knew where i could get a full version of Allen

> Ginsberg's essay "Poetry, Violence, and The Trembling Lambs"?  i was reading

> about it in Schumacher's bio, and was extremely interested.

>> 

 

I can't remember where this essay originally appeared.  Probably the

easiest place to find it reprinted is in the volume, *Poetics of the New

American Poetry*, ed. Donald Allen and Warren Tallman (New York:  Grove

Press, 1973).  I have no idea if the book still is in print or not.  If

not, try a university library and/or interlibrary loan.  Ginsberg's "How

Kaddish Happened" is another excellent essay from this same book.

 

Tony

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:48:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lines not requested by Dave

Comments: To: "CVEditions@aol.com" <CVEditions@aol.com>

Comments: cc: babu <babu@electriciti.com>

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CP writ:

 

><< 

>Go home

>to unwind the mummy roll by roll

> 

> 

>Life is a poor host grabbing guests who came

>swirling great pleated sheets wrapping the stars

>Leaving, streaming party coils to their last car

>some on twilight's slightly twisted cane

> 

>>From Charles Plymell's book, Forever Wider, Scarecrow Press 1985

>>> 

> 

><< end of forwarded material >>

> 

like to watch slick slack

snap dragon passengers

down Hollywood Blvd.

they go         ---->           o{--- [

squeezing in out doors

blazing on horse and speed

the mofos spit and scream

like junkies with die-cut

Model T possibilities

 

>Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:18:03 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      BLAKE DREAMS & HENDRIX

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Hi Bentz,

 

I haven't heard from Luther or Alligator Records so it must be

pretty bad. Hope to find out more and will keep you posted. By

all means post the interview on the Hendrix list. When Luther

was young, people used to compare the two. I think he got a kick

out of that because he really dug Hendrix. I'm not sure if they

ever met.

 

Richard Houff

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:59:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))

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Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

> 

>  The sound and fury of kicks and joy

> ALWAYS end in darkness.  This is not to say that we shouldn't > appreciate or

> find credible the other ingredients, they are authentic and courageous

> in the

> context of their, or any, time and place.  But ultimately, JK's message

> might

> be paraphrased as follows: "I have overcome and put aside the illusory

> and

> meaningless distractions of the society from which I came, and have >

> gone on a

> desperate quest for meaning, through religion, experience, the very act

> of

> movement itself-  but alas, I only see MORE clearly than ever the final

> futility of it all, darkness and death claim everyone, no matter how >

> wildly,

> loudly or "freely" they thrash about".

 

Arthur,

 

I am still pondering this all-encompassing darkness and despair.  The

fact that yes, death claims us all, thus our lives must be full of

desperation, loss and dispair, that seems in Cody to be where Kerouac is

indeed going.  But it also brings to mind the thought that without the

opposite of sadness and despair, those feelings would be meaningless.  I

get the feeling that what you describe as "running away from and toward

something concurrently" still inevitably results in loss and despair.  I

want to understand why Kerouac could not ever find what he was looking

for, at least to the point of seeing joy and despair as dualities that

both exist in the moment, and really, the meaning of human life is in the

moments.  How can anyone who at times writes with such gushyness about

the joys of being alive, be stuck so on finality and loss and death?  I

don't need to see brightness but only to understand a little more how he

thought.  I see him as running toward and away from despair, which seems

like an exhausting process in and of itself.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:57:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      The Starwick Episodes

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While poking around in our local library the other day, I found a small

book called "The Starwick Episodes" edited by Richard S. Kennedy.  It is

a complilation of the portions that Maxwell Perkins cut out of Of Time

and the River.  Frank Starwick was based upon a friend of Thomas Wolfe's

named Kenneth Raisbeck. It is in itself an interesting story.  The first

episode is where Starwick introduces Eugene Gant to Ulysses.  A quite

amusing section.  If you have an affection for Thomas Wolfe, and would

like to understand Jack Kerouac's work and inspiration, this little book

is worth reading.

 

Take care, and peace to all.

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:49:03 -0400

Reply-To:     Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      hello...

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 Hey, I'm a young guy from Michigan, and am really interested in

beats....if you have onything you'd like to help me with...well, i'd

appreciate it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:07:31 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      nyc/fla beat haunts

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I will be doing some travelling shortly -- destinations NYC and southern

Florida. Can anyone email me any recommendations of Beatish or thislisty

places to check out in these locales?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:41:51 -0400

Reply-To:     Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      looking for guidance...

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i'm sorry if i was unclear earlier...

i would like to find out if there are any beat hangouts in michigan...

or someplace i could check for them

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:45:07 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))

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(snipped like sticky bud)

> I

>want to understand why Kerouac could not ever find what he was looking

>for, at least to the point of seeing joy and despair as dualities that

>both exist in the moment, and really, the meaning of human life is in the

>moments.  How can anyone who at times writes with such gushyness about

>the joys of being alive, be stuck so on finality and loss and death?  I

>don't need to see brightness but only to understand a little more how he

>thought.  I see him as running toward and away from despair, which seems

>like an exhausting process in and of itself.

>DC

 

Diane,

  I don't know that I'd say that the "meaning of human life is in the

moments" but I recognize the "moment" as the temporal space in which one

finds joy OR despair.  I don't believe that joy and despair are "dualities

that both exist in the moment" for any one person; you sense / experience

either one or the other.  The person who can consistently experience both at

the same time is a Buddha.  Kerouac ran from despair, but it caught up with

him and he faced it.  Kerouac ran into despair simply by moving through

life.  He ran into it, he didn't run for it.  Every obsessed explorer is

doomed to exhaustion.

  Back to the beginning of what I quoted from you:  what exactly do you

think that Kerouac was looking for?  Personally, I think that he found what

he was looking for:  a measure of comfort.  And he was probably quite

pleased that they bottle it.

                                                        Just some thoughts,

                                                        James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:55:53 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: looking for guidance...

Comments: To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199707241441.HAA22804@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net>

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On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Julian Ruck wrote:

 

> i would like to find out if there are any beat hangouts in michigan...

> or someplace i could check for them

 

ann arbor, shaman drum bookstore and surrounding environs...is it state

street? this is the where i first met our list's arthur nusbaum several

years ago. also local jewel heart chapter and home of gelek rinpoche. i'm

sure arthur will have more comment on all this.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:07:38 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: For Diane M. Homza, "In regards"

 

Dear Diane:

 

I would like to offer some suggestions for your reading of NAKED LUNCH.  It

was also the first WSB book that I read in its entirety, almost 2 decades

ago, and it can indeed be a little daunting as your first exposure to one of

the great literary and cultural figures of our waning century, and a prophet

of the next and beyond.  In the intervening years since I was in your

position, I have read, seen, heard and interacted with virtually every

published item that I am aware of by or about WSB, including the great man

himself whom I visited 2&1/2 years ago.  Besides my posts that are flowing at

a steady rate on this List and to some of its correspondents individually, I

have done a small amount of scholarly writing on him myself.  So, I believe I

am qualified to answer your call for support and advice.

 

After having read NL several times and absorbed a lot of commentary on it

from many sources, I thought I had a fair handle on it.  But luckily for you,

there now exists an unprecedented guide, a key to understanding this

kaleidescopic work.  An audio version of the book, read by WSB himself, is

available.  I have the cd version, I know there is a cassette edition also,

and it should still be available in stock or by order, it only came out about

2 years ago this fall.  Although abridged, it is 3 hours long and most of the

text is there.  I cannot stress how highly I recommend that you listen to WSB

read NL, it is clear, well-paced, and the very ways in which he emphasizes

and modulates words and sentences bring them into focus and out of the

fragmentary fog from which they can fade in and out of the text without this

aid.  You could finish reading NL and then obtain the audio edition, or

better yet obtain and listen to it (at least twice) now, then return to your

reading.  My listening to the cd's no less than doubled my comprehension and

appreciation of this critical work.  But I should note something at this

point-  what I've said above does not mean that you can't enjoy or benefit

from NL without hearing it read by the author, one of the greatest pleasures

I have gotten from it before or after being exposed to the cd's is to savor

the evocative and poetic phrases that have a life of their own and jump off

the page to burrow, so to speak, in your brain.  Some of my favorites from

this rich treasure trove are:  "The days glide by, strung on a syringe with a

long thread of blood", "Motel...Motel...Motel...broken neon

arabesque...loneliness moans across the continent like foghorns over still

oily water of tidal rivers" (one of my all-time favorite phrases in all of

literature), and so many more.  As the author advises near the end, you can

re-order the pages and read them in any combination, this is a roiling,

organic work that should not be read with an attitude that it can be reined

in, amenable to cliff-note condensation.

 

After you have read and heard NL, I further advise you to go back and

chronologically read all the works that precede it, in this way you will see

how WSB arrived at NL and further appreciate his achievement in the context

of his life and work up to that point.  The books, all still in print, are in

order as follows:  JUNKY, QUEER, THE YAGE LETTERS (with Allen Ginsberg) and

THE LETTERS OF WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS (1945-1959), which were written, mostly

to AG, during the period leading up to the first publication of NL.  There is

another volume of letters written by WSB to AG, many of which do not overlap

with the ones in the other, but it is hard to find.  If you can locate it

(it's just titled WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS\LETTERS TO ALLEN GINSBERG 1953-1957),

I highly recommend it, some of the letters are real gems.  The best letters

of all, in my opinion, are those from WSB to AG in TYL above, it is a

perversely hilarious and quintessentially Burroughsian work that is often

overlooked, short and fun to read again and again.  All of these early works

are written in a lucid, easily comprehensible style, although you'll know

that only WSB could have written them.  Along with the above works, you

should also read the biography LITERARY OUTLAW:  THE LIFE AND TIMES OF

WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS by Ted Morgan, concurrently, before or after them.  It

will give you a good initial grounding in the life and experiences from which

the works emerged, it was published in and goes up to 1988, beyond the NL

period so good enough for your purposes at this point.  As with the other

major Beat figures, the life and art are particularly intertwined and mirrors

of each other.  Finally, you should attempt to see the film biography

BURROUGHS, directed by Howard Brookner, originally released in 1985.  Like

LO, it provides an initial overview.

 

I can assure you that you won't be sorry if you follow my suggestions, and

would like to know how you're coming along from time to time.  It may seem as

if I've burdoned you with a semester's worth of reading, listening and

viewing, but if you catch the WSB virus, you will quickly devour these items

and want MORE.  A few more NL comments to conclude for now-  The introductory

essays which probably appear in whatever edition you're reading, TESTIMONY

CONCERNING A SICKNESS and LETTER FROM A MASTER ADDICT TO DANGEROUS DRUGS are

remarkable in their clarity of language and are in themselves minor

masterpieces separable from NL even as they enrich it.  And your comment

about Macbeth is interesting.  While an undergraduate at Harvard, WSB studied

Shakespeare, and he is familiar with and weaves quotes from the Bard in his

works and conversation.  WSB arrived at his avant-garde experiments, which

become literally more cutting-edge with the cutups after NL, from a firm,

rounded educational and reading background, not to mention his myriad

experiences right up to and over the edge.

 

Well, enough for now.  Good luck, and I envy your reading these works for the

first time, there's nothing like that first shot......

 

Regards,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:31:34 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      To Sleep. To Sleep.

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        Ma' Pa'

        il bacino

        della

        buonanotte,

        Ma' Pa'

        a kiss before

        going to sleep

        in the nite

        Ma' Pa'

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:11:59 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      no-time july

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Spoke to Bob Rosenthal briefly today. Strange to think of that

three-month-distant Spring 2am NYC goodbye, and ran into this account of it:

 

--

 

Allen Ginsberg

 

April 4 Friday

 

That evening Peter Hale calls and asks me to come quickly, Allen is in a

coma, dying. Pull on my sneakers and taxi down, trying to keep calm

breathing, trying to arrive in state of peace. 15 minutes after Pete's call

he opens the door to the loft and I go in to join those already gathered. I

went and embraced big Peter--Orlovsky-and Eugene, Allen's brother. About 20

friends talking in low voices, looking lost, comforting each other.

 

After being diagnosed with inoperable liver cancer the previous Friday at

Beth Israel Hospital, Allen had been told he had maybe 2-5 months to live.

When I heard the news, for some reason I felt strongly that it would not be

that long--I felt that he would go very soon. He had come back home

Wednesday in good spirits, organizing things as ever, making plans for the

coming days. But someone, I forget who, had said Allen personally felt that

he had very little time left. A month or two, he thought. So Wednesday he

was busy, writing and making phone calls to his friends all over the world,

saying good-bye. Amiri Baraka said Allen called him and said "I'm dying, do

you need any money?" But Thursday he was much weaker, he could hobble from

bed to chair only with difficulty. There was a phonecall from Italy, in the

middle of it Allen begins to vomit, throws up right there on the phone!

"Funny," he says, "never done that before." Said he was very tired and

wanted to go to sleep. He fell asleep and later that night had a seizure and

slipped into a coma. He was alone. In the morning Bob Rosenthal discovered

him unconscious and called the Hospice doctor who came and told him that

Allen had most likely had a stroke and had hours to live. The task of

notifying family and friends began. Everyone had feared that as word spread,

there would be a huge throng appearing at the loft, but that wasn't the

case. People came and went quietly during the afternoon. Bob, Pete Hale,

Bill Morgan and Kaye Wright, the office staff, were busy constantly at the

phones making and receiving calls. Shelley Rosenthal and Rani Singh helping

with everything that needed doing. Eugene and several nieces and nephews of

Allen's consoling each other. Larry Rivers down from his apartment upstairs,

wandering around forlornly in his pink white and blue striped pajamas.

George and Anna Condo and their little girl. Francesco and Alba Clemente,

beloved friends of Allen's. Patti Smith sitting in tears with Oliver Ray and

her young daughter. Bob and Shelly's sons Aliah and Isaac. Mark Israel and

David Greenberg, two of Allen's young boyfriends. Philip Glass and June

Leaf. Simon Pettet. Andrew Wylie. Roy Lichtenstein. Steven Bornstein, who

had flown up from Florida. A few others, I don't remember who all was there.

I went to the back of the loft and Raymond Foye stood looking pale and so

sad. I told him he must be very blessed, he had spent so much time giving

support and love to the dying--Henry Geldzahler, Huncke, Harry Smith. "Yes,

but this is the big one, the hardest," he said. Allen lay in a narrow

hospital bed beside the windows overlooking 14th street. There were two

almost invisible tubes coming out of his nose, attached to a portable small

oxygen tank on the floor. His head was raised up on a couple of big striped

pillows and he looked tiny and frail, thin arms with bruised veins from

hospital tests sticking out from his Jewel Heart T-shirt. Head to the side,

slight shadows under the eyes. I had walked through the loft, people

whispering greetings, hugging, telling me all that had happened. But still

not really prepared for the sight of him. The windows were open, curtains

waving softly. His breathing was deep, slow, very labored, a snoring sound.

"Hey, Allen, wake up!" Joel, his cousin and doctor, was there constantly,

and a young lady nurse sat in the corner reading, occasionally getting up to

check on heart and pulse, or administer morphine for congestion. Gelek

Rinpoche said he thought Allen might last the night. Joel didn't think so. A

few chairs were set up nearby, and there was the big white leather Salvation

Army sofa of which he was so proud. People sat, or at intervals went to sit

beside the bed and hold his hand or whisper to him and kiss him, his hand or

cheek or head. An altar had been set up along one side of the loft and Gelek

Rinpoche and the other monks sat chanting and praying, the sound so soothing

constantly in the background, bells tinkling. I had a little throw-away

Woolworth's camera, and Gregory Corso asked me to take a picture of him with

Allen. He knelt beside the cot and placed his arm over Allen "like that

picture, or statue, of Adonais, right?" There was a medical chart, a picture

of the human skeleton, hanging over the bed. Bob said Allen had put it

there, half as a joke, half as a reminder. And Allen's beautiful picture of

Whitman gazing down from the wall at the other dear bearded poet in the bed

below. As it got late, many went home to try and catch a little sleep. It

was around 11. Bob and Pete were just playing it by ear, deciding that

anyone who wanted to stay would find a place , on the floor if necessary.

Peter Orlovsky was taking photos and I felt a little uncomfortable, the idea

of taking pictures at this time, but I figured, hey, if it was you, Allen'd

be the first one through the door camera in hand! Eventually, Eugene leaned

over, held Allen's hand, whispered "Good-bye little Allen. Good-bye little

Allen. I'll be back later. See you soon." He kissed him and left. And

Gregory-Gregorio-too, who told us to call him at once if there was any

change. Joel had said that there was no way to know how long it would be,

minutes or hours, surely not days. I had felt from the minute I saw Allen

there that it would be very soon. I sat at the foot of the bed where I had

spent the last few hours, holding his feet, rubbing them gently from time to

time. An occasional cigarette break- the little guest bedroom by the office

area was set up as the smoker's lounge. Bob and Pete and Bill were as strong

and remarkable as ever, supporting everyone, keeping a sense of humor, and

constantly dealing with the dozens of phonecalls, faxes, and the visitors as

they came and went. They'd had a few days for the news to sink in, but they

were dealing with -literally- hundreds of people over the phone or in person

who had just found out and were in the first stages of stunned, disbelieving

grief.

 

I had remained at the bedside and it was now after midnight. I could not

believe he still hung on, the breathing so difficult, the lungs slowly

filling with fluid. Those who had been there all day were exhausted. It was

down to a few now. Bob and Pete and Bill Morgan. Peter Orlovsky so bravely

dealing with his pain, strong Beverly holding his hand. David and Mark.

Patti and Oliver, there together all day trying to be brave and sometimes

giving way to red eyed tears. Simon Pettet sitting beside me for hours.

 

Allen's feet felt cooler than they had been earlier. I sat and thought of

the 33 years I'd known him, lived with him, my second father. And still he

breathed, but softer now.

At about 2 o'clock, everyone decided to try and get some rest. Bob and Joel

lay down in Allen's big bed near the cot where he lay, everyone found a sofa

or somewhere to stretch out.

 

Simon and I sat, just watching his face. Everyone was amazed at how

beautiful he looked-all lines of stress and age smoothed- he looked

patriarchal and strong. I had never seen him so handsome. The funny looking

little boy had grown into this most wonderful looking man. He would have

encouraged photos if he had known how wonderful he looked! But so tiny! He

seemed as fragile as a baby in his little T-shirt.

 

The loft was very quiet. Most were resting, half-asleep. Suddenly Allen

began to shake, a small convulsion wracked his body. I called out, and Joel

and Bob sat up and hurried over. I called louder, and everyone else came

running. It was about 2:15. Joel examined him, pulse, etc., and said that

his vital signs were considerably slower, he had had another seizure. The

breathing went on, weaker. His feet were cooler. Everyone sat or stood close

to the little bed, stroking and kissing him softly. Peter Orlovsky bent over

and kissed his head, saying, "Good-bye Darling."

 

Suddenly then a remarkable thing happened. A tremor went through him, and

slowly, impossibly, he began to raise his head. He weakly tried to sit up,

and his left arm lifted and extended. Then his eyes opened very slowly and

very wide. The pupils were wildly dilated. I thought I saw a look of

confusion or bewilderment. His head began to turn very slowly and his eyes

seemed to glance around him, gazing on each of us in turn. His eyes were so

deep, so dark, but Bob said that they were empty of sight. His mouth opened,

and we all heard as he seemed to struggle to say something, but only a soft

low sound, a weak "Aaah," came from him. Then his eyes began to close and he

sank back weakly onto the pillow. The eyes shut fully. He continued, then,

to struggle through a few more gasping breaths, and his mouth fell open in

an O. Joel said that these were the final moments, the O of the mouth the

sign of approaching death. I still continued to stroke his feet and thin

little legs, but the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is to not touch the body

after death, so I kissed him one final time and then let go.

 

At 2:39, Joel checked for vital signs and announced that the heart, so much

stronger than anyone knew, had stopped beating. A painless and gentle death.

The thin blue sheet was pulled up to his chin, and Peter Hale brought over a

tiny cup and spoon, and placed a few drops of a dark liquid between Allen's

lips. It was part of the Buddhist ritual-- the "last food." Bob put his hand

over Allen's eyes and said the Sh'ma. We all sat quietly in the dim light,

each with our own thoughts, saying good-bye.

 

--Rose Pettet

New York

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:04:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      Re: no-time july

Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

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thank you so much for this reminder of poet father buddha glorious =

man...i never met him, but fell like kindred spirit...want to reach out =

touch his hand in the void...will miss him...

 

"Strange now to think of you, gone..."

AG, Kaddish

 

Ryan.

 

-----Original Message-----

From:   Michael Stutz [SMTP:stutz@DSL.ORG]

Sent:   Thursday, 24 July, 1997 6:12 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        no-time july

 

Spoke to Bob Rosenthal briefly today. Strange to think of that

three-month-distant Spring 2am NYC goodbye, and ran into this account of =

it:

 

--

 

Allen Ginsberg

 

April 4 Friday

 

That evening Peter Hale calls and asks me to come quickly, Allen is in a

coma, dying. Pull on my sneakers and taxi down, trying to keep calm

breathing, trying to arrive in state of peace. 15 minutes after Pete's =

call

he opens the door to the loft and I go in to join those already =

gathered. I

went and embraced big Peter--Orlovsky-and Eugene, Allen's brother. About =

20

friends talking in low voices, looking lost, comforting each other.

 

After being diagnosed with inoperable liver cancer the previous Friday =

at

Beth Israel Hospital, Allen had been told he had maybe 2-5 months to =

live.

When I heard the news, for some reason I felt strongly that it would not =

be

that long--I felt that he would go very soon. He had come back home

Wednesday in good spirits, organizing things as ever, making plans for =

the

coming days. But someone, I forget who, had said Allen personally felt =

that

he had very little time left. A month or two, he thought. So Wednesday =

he

was busy, writing and making phone calls to his friends all over the =

world,

saying good-bye. Amiri Baraka said Allen called him and said "I'm dying, =

do

you need any money?" But Thursday he was much weaker, he could hobble =

from

bed to chair only with difficulty. There was a phonecall from Italy, in =

the

middle of it Allen begins to vomit, throws up right there on the phone!

"Funny," he says, "never done that before." Said he was very tired and

wanted to go to sleep. He fell asleep and later that night had a seizure =

and

slipped into a coma. He was alone. In the morning Bob Rosenthal =

discovered

him unconscious and called the Hospice doctor who came and told him that

Allen had most likely had a stroke and had hours to live. The task of

notifying family and friends began. Everyone had feared that as word =

spread,

there would be a huge throng appearing at the loft, but that wasn't the

case. People came and went quietly during the afternoon. Bob, Pete Hale,

Bill Morgan and Kaye Wright, the office staff, were busy constantly at =

the

phones making and receiving calls. Shelley Rosenthal and Rani Singh =

helping

with everything that needed doing. Eugene and several nieces and nephews =

of

Allen's consoling each other. Larry Rivers down from his apartment =

upstairs,

wandering around forlornly in his pink white and blue striped pajamas.

George and Anna Condo and their little girl. Francesco and Alba =

Clemente,

beloved friends of Allen's. Patti Smith sitting in tears with Oliver Ray =

and

her young daughter. Bob and Shelly's sons Aliah and Isaac. Mark Israel =

and

David Greenberg, two of Allen's young boyfriends. Philip Glass and June

Leaf. Simon Pettet. Andrew Wylie. Roy Lichtenstein. Steven Bornstein, =

who

had flown up from Florida. A few others, I don't remember who all was =

there.

I went to the back of the loft and Raymond Foye stood looking pale and =

so

sad. I told him he must be very blessed, he had spent so much time =

giving

support and love to the dying--Henry Geldzahler, Huncke, Harry Smith. =

"Yes,

but this is the big one, the hardest," he said. Allen lay in a narrow

hospital bed beside the windows overlooking 14th street. There were two

almost invisible tubes coming out of his nose, attached to a portable =

small

oxygen tank on the floor. His head was raised up on a couple of big =

striped

pillows and he looked tiny and frail, thin arms with bruised veins from

hospital tests sticking out from his Jewel Heart T-shirt. Head to the =

side,

slight shadows under the eyes. I had walked through the loft, people

whispering greetings, hugging, telling me all that had happened. But =

still

not really prepared for the sight of him. The windows were open, =

curtains

waving softly. His breathing was deep, slow, very labored, a snoring =

sound.

"Hey, Allen, wake up!" Joel, his cousin and doctor, was there =

constantly,

and a young lady nurse sat in the corner reading, occasionally getting =

up to

 

heck on heart and pulse, or administer morphine for congestion. Gelek

Rinpoche said he thought Allen might last the night. Joel didn't think =

so. A

few chairs were set up nearby, and there was the big white leather =

Salvation

Army sofa of which he was so proud. People sat, or at intervals went to =

sit

beside the bed and hold his hand or whisper to him and kiss him, his =

hand or

cheek or head. An altar had been set up along one side of the loft and =

Gelek

Rinpoche and the other monks sat chanting and praying, the sound so =

soothing

constantly in the background, bells tinkling. I had a little throw-away

Woolworth's camera, and Gregory Corso asked me to take a picture of him =

with

Allen. He knelt beside the cot and placed his arm over Allen "like that

picture, or statue, of Adonais, right?" There was a medical chart, a =

picture

of the human skeleton, hanging over the bed. Bob said Allen had put it

there, half as a joke, half as a reminder. And Allen's beautiful picture =

of

Whitman gazing down from the wall at the other dear bearded poet in the =

bed

below. As it got late, many went home to try and catch a little sleep. =

It

was around 11. Bob and Pete were just playing it by ear, deciding that

anyone who wanted to stay would find a place , on the floor if =

necessary.

Peter Orlovsky was taking photos and I felt a little uncomfortable, the =

idea

of taking pictures at this time, but I figured, hey, if it was you, =

Allen'd

be the first one through the door camera in hand! Eventually, Eugene =

leaned

over, held Allen's hand, whispered "Good-bye little Allen. Good-bye =

little

Allen. I'll be back later. See you soon." He kissed him and left. And

Gregory-Gregorio-too, who told us to call him at once if there was any

change. Joel had said that there was no way to know how long it would =

be,

minutes or hours, surely not days. I had felt from the minute I saw =

Allen

there that it would be very soon. I sat at the foot of the bed where I =

had

spent the last few hours, holding his feet, rubbing them gently from =

time to

time. An occasional cigarette break- the little guest bedroom by the =

office

area was set up as the smoker's lounge. Bob and Pete and Bill were as =

strong

and remarkable as ever, supporting everyone, keeping a sense of humor, =

and

constantly dealing with the dozens of phonecalls, faxes, and the =

visitors as

they came and went. They'd had a few days for the news to sink in, but =

they

were dealing with -literally- hundreds of people over the phone or in =

person

who had just found out and were in the first stages of stunned, =

disbelieving

grief.

 

I had remained at the bedside and it was now after midnight. I could not

believe he still hung on, the breathing so difficult, the lungs slowly

filling with fluid. Those who had been there all day were exhausted. It =

was

down to a few now. Bob and Pete and Bill Morgan. Peter Orlovsky so =

bravely

dealing with his pain, strong Beverly holding his hand. David and Mark.

Patti and Oliver, there together all day trying to be brave and =

sometimes

giving way to red eyed tears. Simon Pettet sitting beside me for hours.

 

Allen's feet felt cooler than they had been earlier. I sat and thought =

of

the 33 years I'd known him, lived with him, my second father. And still =

he

breathed, but softer now.

At about 2 o'clock, everyone decided to try and get some rest. Bob and =

Joel

lay down in Allen's big bed near the cot where he lay, everyone found a =

sofa

or somewhere to stretch out.

 

Simon and I sat, just watching his face. Everyone was amazed at how

beautiful he looked-all lines of stress and age smoothed- he looked

patriarchal and strong. I had never seen him so handsome. The funny =

looking

little boy had grown into this most wonderful looking man. He would have

encouraged photos if he had known how wonderful he looked! But so tiny! =

He

seemed as fragile as a baby in his little T-shirt.

 

The loft was very quiet. Most were resting, half-asleep. Suddenly Allen

began to shake, a small convulsion wracked his body. I called out, and =

Joel

and Bob sat up and hurried over. I called louder, and everyone else came

running. It was about 2:15. Joel examined him, pulse, etc., and said =

that

his vital signs were considerably slower, he had had another seizure. =

The

breathing went on, weaker. His feet were cooler. Everyone sat or stood =

close

to the little bed, stroking and kissing him softly. Peter Orlovsky bent =

over

and kissed his head, saying, "Good-bye Darling."

 

Suddenly then a remarkable thing happened. A tremor went through him, =

and

slowly, impossibly, he began to raise his head. He weakly tried to sit =

up,

and his left arm lifted and extended. Then his eyes opened very slowly =

and

very wide. The pupils were wildly dilated. I thought I saw a look of

confusion or bewilderment. His head began to turn very slowly and his =

eyes

seemed to glance around him, gazing on each of us in turn. His eyes were =

so

deep, so dark, but Bob said that they were empty of sight. His mouth =

opened,

and we all heard as he seemed to struggle to say something, but only a =

soft

low sound, a weak "Aaah," came from him. Then his eyes began to close =

and he

sank back weakly onto the pillow. The eyes shut fully. He continued, =

then,

to struggle through a few more gasping breaths, and his mouth fell open =

in

an O. Joel said that these were the final moments, the O of the mouth =

the

sign of approaching death. I still continued to stroke his feet and thin

little legs, but the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is to not touch the body

after death, so I kissed him one final time and then let go.

 

At 2:39, Joel checked for vital signs and announced that the heart, so =

much

stronger than anyone knew, had stopped beating. A painless and gentle =

death.

The thin blue sheet was pulled up to his chin, and Peter Hale brought =

over a

tiny cup and spoon, and placed a few drops of a dark liquid between =

Allen's

lips. It was part of the Buddhist ritual-- the "last food." Bob put his =

hand

over Allen's eyes and said the Sh'ma. We all sat quietly in the dim =

light,

each with our own thoughts, saying good-bye.

 

--Rose Pettet

New York

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:07:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      where is gregory corso?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hello,

        i am a new subscriber to the beat list but i've been reading beat

literature for 6 years now. My favorite is Burroughs but the rest of the

hipsters are just as good. Where is Gregory Corso? I never hear anything

about him or if he's even alive. A prof in college once took a class in

Albany where Corso was teaching. The time period was the 60s and the

faculty back then had to sign a petition about not striking or something

due to student protests. Well Gregory didn't want to sign the document

and consequently, was thrown out of the college. Just a little anecdote

for all of you.

                                                jason

"who is the other that walks beside you?"- brion gysin.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:05:39 -0700

Reply-To:     runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      winged victory (1997)

Comments: To: vpaul@gwdi.com

Comments: cc: agit8@hotmail.com, 102057.1047@compuserve.com, esholwitz@aol.com,

          boime@humnet.ucla.edu, bstoffma@lausd.k12.ca.us, azulado@aol.com,

          ChrisHein@aol.com, Dfroley@aol.com, double d <dbldd@hotmail.com>,

          thau@hotwired.com, eport@hto-d.usc.edu, EugeneAhn@mwp-online.com,

          gershwin@cinenet.net, Raminocs@aol.com, Jacrosby1@aol.com,

          6500ljn@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu, Marioka7@aol.com, ignatz@sirius.com,

          oktober@post.cis.smu.edu, "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@oees.com>,

          piers@humnet.ucla.edu, babel@postmodern.com, googie@wam.umd.edu,

          tpreece@pacbell.net, mpener@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us

In-Reply-To:  <33D7903E.7F48@together.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

cracked looking glass

a symbol of greek art

the vodka lady Jello

no suit <<nice>> red ass

tropical berry tits

 black mass mulligans

  that laughed a lot

and said no sir pool party

and went about her merry           o-          --->

business wings extended  <-----       \

transporting out of sight               \\

 

caw  ca ca  caw

 

 

 

        <----    o    ------>

           \            /

                [   ]

                   p

                   \\

 

 

 2 sir, w/he/art

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Winged_victory.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:33:51 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>         A prof in college once took a class in

>Albany where Corso was teaching. The time period was the 60s and the

>faculty back then had to sign a petition about not striking or something

>due to student protests. Well Gregory didn't want to sign the document

>and consequently, was thrown out of the college. Just a little anecdote

>for all of you.

>                                                jason

 

Jason,

 

No info here on Corso other than he is alive. Just a note though: The

incident you refer to above I believe happened at SUNY Buffalo in late

60's, not Albany. Unless same happened there too.

 

Michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:40:40 -0700

Reply-To:     Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

Comments: To: peent@SERVTECH.COM

In-Reply-To:  <v01530500630c52285d9d@[204.181.15.86]> from "Michael Czarnecki"

              at Jul 25, 97 07:33:51 am

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> No info here on Corso other than he is alive. Just a note though: The

> incident you refer to above I believe happened at SUNY Buffalo in late

> 60's, not Albany. Unless same happened there too.

 

He still wanders into downtown NY poetry events, and if he doesn't

like what he hears or disagrees with something the reader says,

he will usually say so.  This is one of the reasons poetry is

still fun in New York City.  He sometimes brings his family to

events, including his young son.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:21:57 -0400

Reply-To:     Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

In-Reply-To:  <199707251340.GAA26385@netcom.netcom.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Speaking of Corso, I've been wondering (after all the talk of Kerouac's

and Ginsberg's biography); has there been any serious biographical work

done on Gregory Corso?  Doing quick searches at our library reveals

nothing but that is far from conclusive.  If there hasn't, why not?  Why

does Corso remain (not forgotten certainly but) ignored?  I'd heard

something from someone who heard from the man himself (though highly

intoxicated at the time so possibly exaggerating) there was a book of his

collected works coming out.  Anybody know anything?  When I'd heard that I

expected a reemergence of all-things-Corso (worked for Ginsy), but nothing

yet.  An internet search brings up maybe two or three entries not at

Literay Kicks.  Sad, sad.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                      P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586          Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:25:46 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

Comments: To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.ULT.3.96.970725101456.10703B-100000@xx.acs.appstate.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Alex Howard wrote:

 

> Speaking of Corso, I've been wondering (after all the talk of Kerouac's

> and Ginsberg's biography); has there been any serious biographical work

> done on Gregory Corso?

 

A writer in LA was working on one about 3 years ago. I haven't heard

anything new about this since (this came up on the list sometime back).

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:48:15 -0700

Reply-To:     Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

Comments: To: kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.ULT.3.96.970725101456.10703B-100000@xx.acs.appstate.edu>

              from "Alex Howard" at Jul 25, 97 10:21:57 am

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Speaking of Corso, I've been wondering (after all the talk of Kerouac's

> and Ginsberg's biography); has there been any serious biographical work

> done on Gregory Corso?  Doing quick searches at our library reveals

> nothing but that is far from conclusive.  If there hasn't, why not?  Why

 

I agree!  He is one of the most interesting Beat poets, and his

life story has more than its share of drama.  There've

been biographies of Snyder, Ferlinghetti, Neal Cassady, etc. --

why not Corso?

 

One possible reason: he's notoriously unpredictable and ornery

to work with, which means a biographer would be taking on

a pretty scary task here.  Any takers here?  I bet it'd get

published, if anyone's got the guts to write it.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:40:39 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))

 

James,

 

in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there is

nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.  even Einstein and

later physicists have proved that time is really relative to the observer;

ergo a construct of the observer, not a law of nature.  if that is the case,

then there are no separate moments - all things exists simultaneously.

 

i'm certainly no Buddha, nor a boddhisatva, regardless of how much i would

wish to be.  but i have many, many times felt joy and despair together.

duality is the constant nature of this physical life... take a good look at

quantum theory - things are there.......     but      they're        NOT.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James William Marshall

Sent:   Thursday, July 24, 1997 7:45 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))

 

(snipped like sticky bud)

> I

>want to understand why Kerouac could not ever find what he was looking

>for, at least to the point of seeing joy and despair as dualities that

>both exist in the moment, and really, the meaning of human life is in the

>moments.  How can anyone who at times writes with such gushyness about

>the joys of being alive, be stuck so on finality and loss and death?  I

>don't need to see brightness but only to understand a little more how he

>thought.  I see him as running toward and away from despair, which seems

>like an exhausting process in and of itself.

>DC

 

Diane,

  I don't know that I'd say that the "meaning of human life is in the

moments" but I recognize the "moment" as the temporal space in which one

finds joy OR despair.  I don't believe that joy and despair are "dualities

that both exist in the moment" for any one person; you sense / experience

either one or the other.  The person who can consistently experience both at

the same time is a Buddha.  Kerouac ran from despair, but it caught up with

him and he faced it.  Kerouac ran into despair simply by moving through

life.  He ran into it, he didn't run for it.  Every obsessed explorer is

doomed to exhaustion.

  Back to the beginning of what I quoted from you:  what exactly do you

think that Kerouac was looking for?  Personally, I think that he found what

he was looking for:  a measure of comfort.  And he was probably quite

pleased that they bottle it.

                                                        Just some thoughts,

                                                        James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:15:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Buddhism (was Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond

              (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)))

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:40 PM 7/25/97 UT, you wrote:

>James,

> 

>in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there is

>nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.

 

 

I am curious.  What Buddhist teachings actually say this.  Where does it

come from?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:35:12 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Buddhism (was Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond

              (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)))

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> 

> At 04:40 PM 7/25/97 UT, you wrote:

> >James,

> >

> >in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there

 is

> >nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.

> 

> I am curious.  What Buddhist teachings actually say this.  Where does it

> come from?

 

It comes from the wind blowing through the trees from the flower smiling

at the world.  It is liberation from time - the confusion between

eternal and everlasting - before and forever are abstractions,

illusions.  What can exist besides the present?

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:08:47 -0400

Reply-To:     Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

In-Reply-To:  <199707251448.HAA07386@netcom.netcom.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

speaking of mr corso, ran into this bit of history and forecasting future

clip from the man hisself

 

pot

fragment from a long poem

god dreamed pot as he dreamed the rose.

pot will moses man out of bondage.

pot is god's needle in the haystack.

those who get pricked by pot

        will have a natural ball

destiny has it that all man

        be ultimately =high stoned

                        bombed

                                Zonked!

who'll be the first to drop a joint on the

        president's lap?

Will they scream assassin?

even though he fires his security guards

        and hires narcotic guards

        he'll have to surrender to the

                heavenly arrival of POT--

a bombed president will dig food

                especially sweets

                        like never before.

when pot arrives the liquormen of the world

                will squrim & snarl & scheme

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:12:17 -0400

Reply-To:     Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Buddhism (was Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond

              (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)))

Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <199707251815.LAA27002@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>James,

>> 

>>in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that

there is

>>nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.

> 

> 

>I am curious.  What Buddhist teachings actually say this.  Where does it

>come from?

 

Timothy--I would try the Buddha's discourse on the Four Noble Truths (also

sometimes translated as the Four Holy Truths), which would be a

foundational text on the importance of present moment consciousness to

various Buddhisms.  Another source that could help would be the Heart

Sutra.  Of all the translations and commentaries, Thich Nhat Hahn's might

offer one of the better Westernized versions (with much to say on the

importance of the present moment).  Thich Nhat Hahn's commentary on the

Heart Sutra is available from Parallax Press (Berkeley), and is titled *The

Heart of Understanding*.  These aren't the only texts to go for this

question, though, and I bet others on the list could offer even better

sources.  Hope this helps.

 

Tony

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:03:18 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Joy and Despair

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>James,

> 

>in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there is

>nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.  even Einstein and

>later physicists have proved that time is really relative to the observer;

>ergo a construct of the observer, not a law of nature.  if that is the case,

>then there are no separate moments - all things exists simultaneously.

> 

>i'm certainly no Buddha, nor a boddhisatva, regardless of how much i would

>wish to be.  but i have many, many times felt joy and despair together.

>duality is the constant nature of this physical life... take a good look at

>quantum theory - things are there.......     but      they're        NOT.

> 

>ciao,

>sherri

 

Sherri,

  I think that indifference and / or confusion are words which encompass the

simultaneous feeling of joy and despair.  And the experience of emotions is

a little different than the existence of time and matter.  A metaphysician

would argue that there is no such thing as the present since it's an ever

fleeting instant; the past is memory (subjective) and the future is

speculative.  A logician would probably say that you run into problems when

you combine the propositions "all thing exist(s) simultaneously" and "things

are there.......    but   they're     NOT."  Do things exist, however small,

or is it all illusory, or perhaps a healthy combination.  As for a "constant

nature of this physical life", I'd have to say (cliched) that change is the

only one.

  And why the emphasis on duality?  Why not polyality?  If you're going to

argue for both sides of the coin, why not argue for the edges too?

 

                                                      James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:29:39 -0400

Reply-To:     MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re[2]: where is gregory corso?

Mime-Version: 1.0

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                >heavenly arrival of POT--

>a bombed president will dig food

                >especially sweets

 

                Big Mac, Filet o'Fish, Quarter Pounder, French Fries, Icy Coke,

                Big Shakes, Sundae's and apple pie!!!!!  I'm not a Clintonite,

                I'm not an anti-Clintonite...I'm a realist....before I sobered

                up I never claimed I only sniffed the cork!

 

                        >like never before.

>when pot arrives the liquormen of the world

                >will squrim & snarl & scheme

 

     Who bought LBJ that damned milk truck anyway?  Driving around drunk

     harassing the neighbors, probably held a dog out the window by its

     ears to announce his arrival.

 

     I'm back, after an e-mail disaster of epic proportions.  I have missed

     all of you and hope you will welcome me back into your loving arms.

 

     love and lilies from the foot of AG's "Rapture Mountain",

 

     matt

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:52:48 +0000

Reply-To:     Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Joy and Despair

Comments: To: dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET

 

On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:03:18 -0700 James William Marshall

<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET> writes:

 

> Sherri,

>  I think that indifference and / or confusion are words which encompass

the

> simultaneous feeling of joy and despair.

 

i think you are missing the essence of the duality that buddhism (and

consequently kerouac) attempt to address.  this may be the source of

confusion.  i think the simultaneous occurrence of joy and despair is not

only possible, but an understanding of it is necessary to understand

kerouac's purpose.  i don't think this duality can be written off as

"confusion".   To do so sells buddhism and kerouac short.

 

> And the experience of emotions is a little different than the existence

of time and >matter.  A metaphysician would argue that there is no such

thing as the present >since it's an ever fleeting instant; the past is

memory (subjective) and the future is

>speculative.

 

so what.  all that gives us is a neo-cartesian philosophy which strives

to disprove the existence of anything.  this gets us nowhere.

 

> A logician would probably say that you run into problems when you

combine the >propositions "all thing exist(s) simultaneously" and

"things are there.......    but   >they're     NOT."  Do things exist,

however small, or is it all illusory, or perhaps a >healthy combination.

As for a "constant nature of this physical life", I'd have to say

>(cliched) that change is the only one.

 

you are taking the beautiful simplicity of buddhism and beating it down

with the hammer of logic.  i admit that if you logically look at

buddhism, you will find every imaginable form of inconsistency.  it is

not something that tries to or wants to exist in a domain of logic.  it

subverts logic.  and it is logic.  and it rejects logic.

 

logic would also have some problems with the sound of one hand clapping.

i would suggest trying to ignore these "logical tests" when trying to

understand buddhism.  it is sure to create more problems than solve them.

 

>  And why the emphasis on duality?  Why not polyality?  If you're going

to

>argue for both sides of the coin, why not argue for the edges too?

> 

>                                                      James M.

 

because understanding that there is simultaneously good and evil (to take

a trite example) in every yin and yang is central to understanding not

only buddhism, but  eastern societies as well.  i think buddhism _deals_

with the edges of the coin too.  it's all about everything being

everything simultaneously (i believe that's how someone recently put

it.).  that is all of the coin as far as i can tell.  however,  i don't

want to admit that buddhism _argues_ at all.  it's purpose is

enlightenment, not debate or even discourse.  looking at it through the

glasses of western ethnocentrism is never going to give a clear picture

of buddhism, hinduism, china, japan, india, etc.

 

just my opinion,

 

-brian kirchhoff

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:44:30 -0400

Reply-To:     Chimera@WEBTV.NET

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Introduction

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          Hello, Everyone:

           I've been lurking for a bit, and

have enjoyed your postings very much.

This is my first post to the list, and It's

with some nervousness that I'd like to

ask if it would be possible to steer me

in the right direction in terms of beat reading material.

 

             I'm aware that that request must

be made often, and with all respect to the

list, I've no wish to disturb any current threads, so if possible, I'd

appreciate any

members e-mailing me privately with their

suggestions.

 

                  Very brief bio:

I'm 32, born 6/3/65 from Bronx, N.Y. I live

with my girlfriend, Nancy (28) and our son, Adam, who will be 4 August

29th. I

work for the U.S. postal service as a mail

handler. I enjoy reading and writing poetry, as well as all types of

fantasy literature and rock and jazz music.

 

                    I wish you all a wonderful

weekend. Take care and have fun (in

whatever order you like).

 

                                      My best,

 

                                     Eric Blanco

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:47:05 -0400

Reply-To:     Chimera@WEBTV.NET

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Untitled Poem Written 4/14/91

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

 

The kids invade the wrong neigborhood

Packs like young wolves

They move with deathly grace

Stop-motion rhythm

In the eyes of the smoke numbed

 

Shattered store windows

A nile of broken glass and abandoned cars

One lone girl,who,taking a short cut home

Will never make it there

 

An abandoned building

A shooting gallery filled with dying targets

The kids find sex and mystic transport

In the arms of sweet addiction

 

Friends sleep beneath a sea of grass

Barely remembered but revered

 

                                        Chimera '91

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:53:29 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Buddhism & Me

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

First off, I want to state that I don't know all that much about Buddhism

and in no way meant to denigrate a religion or its adherents.  In responding

to Sherri's post, I only meant to address what I saw as a fruitless ground:

attempting to mix logic and science with a religious way of viewing the self

and the world.  The arguments presented in my last post were simply

arguments; I used phrases like "a metaphysician would argue" and "a logician

would probably say" hoping that people wouldn't jump to assumptions about my

spiritual beliefs or personal philosoph(y)ies.

  I still don't understand how someone can experience two diametrically

opposed emotions simultaneously (I can imagine how one might go back and

forth between the feelings quite quickly), but I'm willing to take your word

that it's possible.  Perhaps as I learn more about Buddhism, which is a goal

of mine, I will come to understand.  I apologize to anyone whom I may have

offended.  If anyone could give me some specific examples of how the Beats

used this joy / despair simultaneous duality, I might be able to comprehend

this thread a little better.  (Oh, and now that I've had some time to think

about it, I believe that I may have experienced this duality but it was when

my mind had been chemically altered and I don't know if that really

counts... time being a little skewed and all).

                                                            James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:09:55 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Buddhism & Me

 

Confusious Say:

They have all answered correctly; that is, each in their own nature.

 

I say:

Take up the slack, Jack.

 

Don't mean to be coy

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:07:45 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Hunter S. Thompson/NY Times (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:13:08 -0400

From: Ron P Whitehead

To: BOHEMIAN

Subject: Hunter S. Thompson/NY Times

 

LETTERS OF THE YOUNG AUTHOR (He Saved Them All)

 

Books of the Times

 

THE NEW YORK TIMES

THE LIVING ARTS section

Friday, July 25, 1997

 

by Richard Bernstein

 

   One thing that this collection of letters makes clear at the outset is

that Hunter S. Thompson, he of the "Fear and Loathing" books, for whom

the phrase "gonzo journalist" was invented, has always burned to carve

his initials onto the collective awareness. What other kind of person

would, beginning in his teen years, make carbon copies of every letter he

wrote - to his mother, his Army friends and commanding officers, his

girlfriends, his various agents and editors - specifically in the hope

that they would be published?

 

   Mr. Thompson, by dint of hard work and enormous talent, has gotten his

wish. Edited by Douglas Brinkley and adorned with a sparkling essay by

the novelist William J. Kennedy, "The Proud Highway" takes Mr. Thompson's

caustic, furious, funny, look-at-me correspondence through 1967, when the

author, having arrived on the scene with his book "Hell's Angels," was

30. It is noteworthy that although just one in seven of the relevant

cache of letters was included, this book, labeled "The Fear and Loathing

Letters, Volume I," weighs in at just under 700 pages - and there are

still 30 more years to go. Even some of the photographs of Mr. Thompson

were taken by the author himself, self-portraits of the writer at work

and at play. Manifestly, this is a man who, while anti-snobbish to a

fault, abusively contemptuous of self-promotion and pretension, had a

powerful need to make a record of himself and to make that record public.

 

   Fortunately, the maverick vibrancy and originality of the record's

creator fully redeems what might otherwise have been an act of

egomaniacal temerity. The Hunter S. Thompson that emerges in this

collection of his letters, complemented by fragments of his other

writings, is very much the unrestrained, strenuously nonconformist, Lone

Ranger journalist who achieved cult status long ago.

 

   One thinks of Mr. Thompson a bit as one thinks of the hero of George

Macdonald Fraser's fictional Flashman books, Flashman rampaging like Don

Quixote through the major events of the 19th century, making them his

own. Mr. Hunter rampaged through the 60's and 70's of this century, not

reporting on them in any conventional sense but using them as raw

material for the text that was his own life.

 

   Taken together, as Mr. Brinkley correctly points out in his editor's

note, the Thompson correspondence is "an informal and offbeat history of

two decades in American life," the two decades in question having

produced the counterculture that Mr. Thompson both chronicled and helped

produce. The overriding sensibility, inherited from H. L. Mencken,

consists of an eloquent, hyperbolic impatience with the supposed

mediocrity of American life, its Rotarian culture, its complacency and

its pieties.

 

   "Young people of America, awake from your slumber of indolence and

harken the call of the future!" the 18-year-old Mr. Thompson wrote in the

first piece reproduced in this book, taken from the yearbook of the

Louisville Male High School in Kentucky. "I'm beginning to think you're a

phony, Graham," Mr. Hunter writes eight years later in 1963, the Graham

in question being Philip L. Graham, president of the Washington Post

Company. Mr. Hunter, a freelancer writing articles from South America,

was moved to a rage by an article in Newsweek, owned by The Washington

Post, that was critical of The National Observer, which was publishing

his work.

 

   This, evidently, was a guy who took no guff, whose Ayn Rand-influenced

determination to do things his way required not only that he make no

compromises but that he be seen as making none. Graham invited Mr. Hunter

to "write me a somewhat less breathless letter, in which you tell me

about yourself," and Mr. Thompson did so. He compliments his

correspondent on the "cavalier tone that in some circles would pass for a

very high kind of elan" but warns him against interpreting his letter as

"a devious means of applying for a job on the assembly line at Newsweek,

or covering speeches for The Washington Post. I sign what I write, and I

mean to keep on signing it."

 

   By 1967, Mr. Thompson, who has risen in the world, is blasting others

for nincompoopery and knavishness. "I have every honest and serious

intention of wreaking a thoroughly personal and honest vengeance on Scott

Meredith himself, in the form of cracking his teeth with a knotty stick

and rupturing every other bone and organ I can make contact with in the

short time I expect will be allotted to me," he writes in a letter to his

editor at Random House, speaking of the literary agent whom he has just,

in any case, dismissed. "I am probably worse than you think, as a person,

but what the hell?" he wrote to Meredith. "When I get hungry for personal

judgment on myself, I'll call for a priest."

 

   Mr. Thompson is not always making symbolic threats. This volume shows

him as a loyal and clever

 

(An undated self-portrait of Hunter S. Thompson in his youth.)

 

friend devoted to sporting, high-spirited repartee. It shows him also as

a stingingly good stylist as well as a hard-drinking, gun-toting

adventurer who never loses his sense of humor even when he is being

bitten by South American beetles or stomped on by members of an American

motorcycle gang. The letters and other fragments in this collection are

invested with the same rugged, outspoken individualism as his more public

writings, which make them just as difficult to put down.

 

   What makes them ever more irresistible is that they lend substance to

the legend of his life as an ultimate countercultural romance. If books

like "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" conveyed the image of a handsome

young man riding his motorcycle at 100 miles an hour on the defiant

highway of the untrammeled life, this collection of his private

statements will show that the image was true. "The most important thing a

writer can have," he wrote to a friend when he was 21, is "the ability to

live with constant loneliness and a strong sense of revulsion for the

banalities of everyday socializing." Evidently, he meant what he said.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:52:13 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Hunter S. Thompson/NY Times (fwd)

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.95.970726000701.8789A-100000@devel.nacs.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

In Jul 1997, The New York Times printed:

 

>    Mr. Thompson, by dint of hard work and enormous talent, has gotten his

> wish. Edited by Douglas Brinkley and adorned with a sparkling essay by

> the novelist William J. Kennedy, "The Proud Highway" takes Mr. Thompson's

> caustic, furious, funny, look-at-me correspondence through 1967, when the

> author, having arrived on the scene with his book "Hell's Angels," was

> 30.

 

Wow, was he already a whole 30 years old when _Hell's Angels_ came out? I

was under some kind of impression all these years that his first book came

out at 25, and he'd completed some sort of book-length manuscript and had

gotten some kind of major break at 23. This means my understanding of HST is

going to need some revision; as I understand it his life as a magazine

writer was fairly obscure and somewhat destitute even, until he'd gotten that

Hell's Angel assignment -- originally just an article -- and turned it into

the worthy tome it is. So he spent his 20s without a book, eh? _None_ of

these guys got a break. Arthur, I'm sure at least you'll have something to

say on this matter (and with your usual manner of erudite completeness,

too). Oh and got your message, looking forward to it. Seeya.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:28:30 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Ram Dass Info. Source (fwd)

Comments: cc: bohemian list <bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

ya'll

saw this on rec.music.gdead and i thought it might interest some here.

yrs

derek

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:11:10 -0600

From: bobshome@pacbell.net

Subject: Ram Dass Info. Source

 

Hi Everyone & Namaste'

 

  I'd like to THANK EVERYONE who has been passing along the ongoing

"health updates" and other topics concerning Ram Dass.  He appears to be

recovering at his own pace.  Overcoming a massive stroke can be slow at

times...  Last Sunday (July 20th), I went to the Bay Area Bandhara (Marin

County, CA.)  celebrating Guru Purnima (the actual day itself, according

to the Hindu calendar).  This is a celebration of ones' Guru or Teacher.

In this case, Neem Karoli Baba (Maharaj-ji).  Jai Uttal lead the kirtan

and the sanga was very uplifting; the food was Excellent!!!  Marlene had

told me that they (including Ram Dass), might come.  It was when I got

there that I realized that this would've been 'cumbersome' for Ram Dass.

It was at a cabin in the woods on a slight hill...not very easy for a

wheelchair...  I found later that the same weekend that some friends from

India visited Ram Dass, which I'm sure lifted his spirits!  At my site, I

do my best to get out as much information as I can get my hands on.  I

also have an e-mail list which I send out the most recent "health

updates".  If you'd like to be on this list, please e-mail me and let me

know "why" you're e-mailing because I receive much e-mail.  The e-mail

list is Bcc (Blind carbon copy).  No one's address is displayed to

others.  A request from some when the list got pretty large.  IT HAS BEEN

VERY SWEET OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO I'VE SEEN POSTINGS FROM, REGARDING HEALTH

UPDATES ON NEWSGROUPS!!!  It has been my sole intention to pass

information to all that wish it and am VERY HAPPY that others' are doing

the same.

 

  The URL for my site, which includes the current update (at this time,

approx. once a month), past health updates, a bulletin board (for Ram

Dass to come to later and read all of the posts~~his vision in his right

eye HAS been affected~~but the Teacher who wrote, "How Can I Help?" now

has plenty of assistance....a karmic thing :^)  Also, a Satsang Page that

has peoples' boigraphies and the option of e-mailing them if you feel you

have something in common with them; Information on the band, Jai Uttal

and the Pagan Love Orchestra and many other related topics. Jai Uttal

spent time in India with Maharaji and was given the name of "Jai Gopal",

which means, "Baby Krishna".  Jai's band is jazz fussion with a strong

emphasis on Kirtan.  A Must Hear!  You wouldn't be disappointed!!!

 

  AGAIN, thanking all of you for spreading the information of Ram Dass'

ongoing recovery and for those who have participated in the

Healing/Prayer Circles, spending a few minutes (globally) in sending

healing energy to Ram Dass.  The least we can give back to him after

these many years of Giving of Himself.

 

URL including addresses and phone numbers And All Of The Above:

 

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/1143/ramindex.html

 

Peace and Much Love to You All!!!!  Jai Hanuman!

 

         Namaste', Bob Watson

 

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------

      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:43:39 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Joy and Despair

 

In a message dated 97-07-26 05:46:29 EDT, you write:

 

<< > And the experience of emotions is a little different than the existence

 of time and >matter. >>

 

Damn. I had them all packed up in the same box ready to send with a ribbon of

Hawkins singualrity tied around them

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:19:30 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Dharma Bum, not quite

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I just read a fawning letter about that fraud

Hunter Thompson.  He is mostly a showboat running

around posing as a celebrity writer.  Hells Angels

is a nice little book.  The Fear and Loathing and

that gonzo shit is just posing.  Its by a man who

recognized there was more to be gotten out of advertising

and public relations than can be had by mere writing.

 

I read the first Fear and Loathing, then looked at

the second one and couldn't finish it.  That, the

rolling stone  work, the run for sheriff in some

Colorado outback, are just the author seeking a

reputation for outrageousness.  He has never since

produced a book as good as Hells Angels.

 

Mostly, its been advertisements for himself on his

way up.  This latest mish-mash is the ultimate product

of a man who has been navel-gazing since he was a

teenager.

 

I saw one of the least minds of his generation ground

under the wheel of his own angry fixation.

 

Mike Rice

mrice@centuryinter.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 26 Jul 1997 20:13:13 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Dharma Bum, not quite

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Mike Rice wrote:

> 

> I just read a fawning letter about that fraud

> Hunter Thompson.  He is mostly a showboat running

> around posing as a celebrity writer.  Hells Angels

> is a nice little book.  The Fear and Loathing and

> that gonzo shit is just posing.  Its by a man who

> recognized there was more to be gotten out of advertising

> and public relations than can be had by mere writing.

> 

> I read the first Fear and Loathing, then looked at

> the second one and couldn't finish it.  That, the

> rolling stone  work, the run for sheriff in some

> Colorado outback, are just the author seeking a

> reputation for outrageousness.  He has never since

> produced a book as good as Hells Angels.

> 

> Mostly, its been advertisements for himself on his

> way up.  This latest mish-mash is the ultimate product

> of a man who has been navel-gazing since he was a

> teenager.

> 

> I saw one of the least minds of his generation ground

> under the wheel of his own angry fixation.

> 

> Mike Rice

> mrice@centuryinter.net

 

guess you don't care for hunter too much.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:52:02 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Gregorio Nunzio Corso.

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dear beat-Ls,

 

the book "Selected Poems 1947-1995" by Allen Ginsberg has been dedicated

by ALLEN GINSBERG to GREGORIO NUNZIO CORSO.

-----

 

btw: some days ago somebody wrote:

 

<<But Thursday he was much weaker, he [Allen Ginsberg] could hobble from

bed to chair only with difficulty. There was a phonecall from Italy, in the

middle of it Allen begins to vomit, throws up right there on the phone!

"Funny," he says, "never done that before.">>

 

i must thank the writer of a similar anecdote and notice his chord in the

comparisons of the dying poet...

 

---

yrs Rinaldo.

*

Luciano Pavarotti defendant of don't know the musical notes he

told that ENRICO CARUSO told that for be a good opera singer

you need a good memory.

*

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 26 Jul 1997 18:37:39 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      (FWD)Another Short Interview with William S. Burroughs

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>Return-Path: <bofus@fcom.com>

>Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:18:29 -0800

>From: bofus? <bofus@fcom.com>

>To: bofus@fcom.com

>Subject: Another Short Interview with William S. Burroughs

> 

>rwhitebone@juno.com (Ron P Whitehead) wrote:

>> 

>> 

>>  WILL OUR MAYOR GIVE BACK WILLIAM BURROUGHS'

>>  CAR?

>> 

>>  Interview with William S. Burroughs (one of

>>  many interviews, articles, letters, poems,

>>  photographs, & audio to be included in

>>  WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS: Calling The Toads, a

>>  Published in Heaven Book to be released

>>  late summer early fall by the literary

>>  renaissance & Ring Tarigh)

>> 

>>  by Ron Whitehead and Peter Orr

>> 

>>  New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial, whose police

>>  department has included convicted murderers

>>  Antoinette Frank and Len Davis, has been

>>  invited to dedicate a plaque this summer

>>  ('96) to mark 509 Wagner Street in Algiers

>>  as the onetime home of William S. Burroughs.

>> 

>>  In the late 1940s, years before his

>>  literary success, Burroughs moved here with

>>  his wife after selling his farm in Texas. A

>>  vague sentence in Barry Miles' rather

>>  informal biography, EL HOMBRE INVISIBLE,

>>  might lead some readers to believe that the

>>  financial loss on Burroughs' first crop of

>>  pot inspired him to move. "That's

>>  inaccurate," Burroughs says. "I was moving

>>  anyway." Though he recalls doing "quite a

>>  bit" of writing during his brief stint

>>  here, he would not embark on his first

>>  novel, JUNKY, until a year after he left.

>> 

>>  Knowing Burroughs through his later work,

>>  one would expect him to hang out in or near

>>  the French Quarter, rather than rustic

>>  Algiers. Instead his choice of neighborhood

>>  reflected his lifestyle during that era: He

>>  had a wife and newborn son.

>> 

>>  "It was a hell of a lot cheaper. The real

>>  estate there was cheap at that time.

>>  Probably still is," he says. "I got that

>>  house for seven thousand-something." As for

>>  the rest of the city, he has few memories to

>>  share. "I didn't get around too much."

>> 

>>  Yet he got around enough to get busted.

>>  Only the NOPD's failure to obey legal

>>  procedure in searching Burroughs' house

>>  kept him out of Angola. (Picture him

>>  writing NAKED LUNCH in Dickens-style

>>  installments for Wilbert Rideau's THE

>>  ANGOLITE. While you're at it, picture the

>>  warden rescinding Rideau's permission to

>>  print anything, ever.) A second drug

>>  offense in Louisiana would have sent him

>>  away, so he packed up his family and left.

>>  That was nearly 50 years ago.

>> 

>>  The author, who spoke to TRIBE after

>>  recording JUNKY for audio release, did not

>>  plan to attend the plaque ceremony, though

>>  event organizers have discussed his

>>  participating from Lawrence, Kansas, via

>>  video linkup.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>  Is this the first time that a place where

>>  you lived or worked has been declared a

>>  landmark?

>> 

>>  WSB: As far as I know, yes.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>  Was any of the writing you produced there

>>  ever published?

>> 

>>  WSB: I don't know about that. I'm not sure

>>  to say where I wrote this or that, but I

>>  certainly did some writing there. As far as

>>  how much of it was subsequently published, I

>>  have no idea which specific works were

>>  written there, or partly written there.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>  Traditionally, people across the South and

>>  the Midwest see this city as either

>>  romantic or depraved. What impression did

>>  you have of New Orleans while you grew up

>>  in St. Louis?

>> 

>>  WSB: No impression of it at all. Not that I

>>  know of. No, I... [Thinks] No, I don't

>>  recall any ideas about New Orleans at all.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>  The New Orleans police arrested you for

>>  having someone with pot in your car, but

>>  they charged you with heroin possession.

>> 

>>  WSB: That's right. They found stuff in my

>>  house. They never laid a finger on me, that

>>  I recall. They did lead me to believe that

>>  someone was a federal agent and he wasn't.

>>  He was a city cop. And so there was an

>>  illegal search. I didn't know it at the

>>  time.

>> 

>>  When I was arrested, there was somebody

>>  with me that I hardly knew. He was just

>>  introduced to me. And he had one joint on

>>  him. He'd thrown out some larger amount, I

>>  think, but the little guy had another joint

>>  and they caught it right away. Then the next

>>  day they went and they took my car. I never

>>  got it back, although I wasn't convicted.

>>  See, they can confiscate your property even

>>  though you're not convicted of anything.

>>  That's really very sinister.

>> 

>>  There were three people [aside from

>>  Burroughs, who was driving] in the car. Two

>>  of them were well-known to the police - Joe

>>  Ricks and somebody else. So they saw him in

>>  the car, and he had another guy with him

>>  that I didn't know, who had a joint with

>>  him. So they stopped the car on the stength

>>  of knowing the other people that were with

>>  me. Then they found a joint on this guy.

>>  And they gave us all hell.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>  Where did the police arrest you?

>> 

>>  WSB: It was near Lee Circle. That's all I

>>  know. They wouldn't have stopped us except

>>  that they recognized these two people, who

>>  had long records, long drug records. Not

>>  the guy who had a joint on him - he was a

>>  seaman, an acquaintance of these people.

>> 

>>  They confiscated my car on the strength of

>>  someone I didn't know having something I

>>  didn't know he had. They're getting much,

>>  much, much worse in that respect:

>>  confiscation with no conviction.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>  To give you an idea of how much progress

>>  this city has made, our district attorney

>>  wants to start mandatory urine tests for

>>  all students in New Orleans public high

>>  schools.

>> 

>>  WSB: It's ridiculous, for God's sakes. I

>>  think it's terrible. The whole thing, the

>>  whole War On Drugs, seems to me to be a

>>  shallow pretense to increase police power

>>  and personnel, and confiscation.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>  It also limits black political power. More

>>  than half of inner-city black men come of

>>  age with felony convictions now, due to

>>  cocaine or weapons arrests. Felons can't

>>  vot.

>> 

>>  WSB: Exactly. I hadn't thought of that, but

>>  it's very true. I don't see the difference

>>  between crack and cocaine, myself. They

>>  talk about cocaine addicts, and I never

>>  encountered such a thing. Heroin addicts

>>  and morphine addicts, to be sure, but never

>>  a cocaine addict.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>  By strict definition, cocaine isn't

>>  addictive.

>> 

>>  WSB: No, it isn't, as I can see. I used to